liturgies of blood wrote:
Oh wow....
Are you actually trolling?
Occupying a troops slot is the only requirement in the brb for being scoring. If you haven't done that then you don't score.

The rules for allies are not in a vacuum, the scoring rules still apply. Similarly just because my allies rules don't say that swarms cannot score doesn't mean that the swarm rules no longer apply.

Being classified as a Troop in the codex is enough to count as scoring. Some exceptions are listed on page 112 and 123.. Apply the levels of alliance to Allied Formations- Battle Brother allied Troops score, Allies of Convenience Troops score, but Desperate Allies Troops do not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Page 112 of the BRB has no mention of when allies score, only when they do not. You might call it an exception such as the ones on page 123. Troops in an allied Formation score, except when in Desperate Alliance.

Are they taken as a troop selection?

No, they're taken as allies. Pg 112 tells you how to treat allies in your army. The only mention of scoring is when Desperate Allies do not score. A formation of Desperate Allies would not score. A formation of Battle Brothers would score.

Great - there's no rule forbidding them from scoring (as they're Battle Brothers).
Let's see if any other rules prevent them from scoring, shall we?

An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart

So did they come from the troops selection of the FOC?

Or are you trying to argue that, regardless of where in the Army List a unit sits, a Battle Brother Formation Detachment scores with every unit?

Nope. Only that units classified as Troops in the parent codex are scoring, unless they have an exception such as swarms or are in Desperate Alliance.
On another note, no where in Formations does it say Troops do not score.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Oh wow....
Are you actually trolling?
Occupying a troops slot is the only requirement in the brb for being scoring. If you haven't done that then you don't score.

The rules for allies are not in a vacuum, the scoring rules still apply. Similarly just because my allies rules don't say that swarms cannot score doesn't mean that the swarm rules no longer apply.

Being classified as a Troop in the codex is enough to count as scoring. Some exceptions are listed on page 112 and 123.. Apply the levels of alliance to Allied Formations- Battle Brother allied Troops score, Allies of Convenience Troops score, but Desperate Allies Troops do not.

The underlined is an incorrect statement. I've quoted the rule many times before. Perhaps you should read it.

Nope. Only that units classified as Troops in the parent codex are scoring, unless they have an exception such as swarms or are in Desperate Alliance.

So you're just going to ignore the rule that literally requires them to be a selection on the FOC?

Ok, so can you show us a slot in the formations that a unit would occupy to be scoring?
Being classed as a troop in the codex is not enough, specifically because units that take up troops slots in the FOC are defined as what it requires to be scoring.
Do you know why I say this? It's because the rules on page 123, which I have told you about in every post since you joined this thread tell you that.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Oh wow....
Are you actually trolling?
Occupying a troops slot is the only requirement in the brb for being scoring. If you haven't done that then you don't score.

The rules for allies are not in a vacuum, the scoring rules still apply. Similarly just because my allies rules don't say that swarms cannot score doesn't mean that the swarm rules no longer apply.

Being classified as a Troop in the codex is enough to count as scoring. Some exceptions are listed on page 112 and 123.. Apply the levels of alliance to Allied Formations- Battle Brother allied Troops score, Allies of Convenience Troops score, but Desperate Allies Troops do not.

The underlined is an incorrect statement. I've quoted the rule many times before. Perhaps you should read it.

Nope. Only that units classified as Troops in the parent codex are scoring, unless they have an exception such as swarms or are in Desperate Alliance.

So you're just going to ignore the rule that literally requires them to be a selection on the FOC?

This is the rule you are referring to?
pg 123- "An army's scoring unis are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization chart".
I see the word normally there myself. Formations are not normal- apply the levels of alliance to Allied Formations.

Lol.

Normal cannot apply so I make rules up. Allies don't create magical scoring units. So please show a quote for how units can score without meeting the requirements?

 Sinful Hero wrote:
This is the rule you are referring to?
pg 123- "An army's scoring unis are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization chart".
I see the word normally there myself. Formations are not normal- apply the levels of alliance to Allied Formations.

There's no exception for Allied Formation troops to score.
You're correct that there's no prohibition, but, using your argument, why would a Hive Tyrant in a Formation not be allowed to score?
Please cite rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
This is the rule you are referring to?
pg 123- "An army's scoring unis are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization chart".
I see the word normally there myself. Formations are not normal- apply the levels of alliance to Allied Formations.

There's no exception for Allied Formation troops to score.
You're correct that there's no prohibition, but, using your argument, why would a Hive Tyrant in a Formation not be allowed to score?
Please cite rules.

Of course, in a normal detachment, Hive Tyrants are an HQ, which is found in their parent codex. Hive Tyrants are listed under HQ. As HQs are not Troops, they would not be allowed to score. Warrriors are Troops, and are allowed to score. Rippers are Troops, but are not allowed to score due to the Swarm USR. Venomthropes are not listed under Troops in the parent codex, and are not allowed to score.
Taken in a formation, a Hive Tyrant is an HQ in the parent codex, and is thus not allowed to score. Warriors in the same detachment, are found under Troops, and are allowed to score.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
This is the rule you are referring to?
pg 123- "An army's scoring unis are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization chart".
I see the word normally there myself. Formations are not normal- apply the levels of alliance to Allied Formations.

There's no exception for Allied Formation troops to score.
You're correct that there's no prohibition, but, using your argument, why would a Hive Tyrant in a Formation not be allowed to score?
Please cite rules.

Of course, in a normal detachment, Hive Tyrants are an HQ, which is found in their parent codex. Hive Tyrants are listed under HQ. As HQs are not Troops, they would not be allowed to score. Warrriors are Troops, and are allowed to score. Rippers are Troops, but are not allowed to score due to the Swarm USR. Venomthropes are not listed under Troops in the parent codex, and are not allowed to score.
Taken in a formation, a Hive Tyrant is an HQ in the parent codex, and is thus not allowed to score. Warriors in the same detachment, are found under Troops, and are allowed to score.

And not a single rules citation that contradicts page 123. It's like you're not even trying.
Page 123 isn't limited to Primary detachments. You're artificially limiting it - or expanding what is allowed to score - without citing a rule to do so.

Please cite actual rules instead of pontificating.

Can you show some rules to back up this opinion?

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
This is the rule you are referring to?
pg 123- "An army's scoring unis are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization chart".
I see the word normally there myself. Formations are not normal- apply the levels of alliance to Allied Formations.

There's no exception for Allied Formation troops to score.
You're correct that there's no prohibition, but, using your argument, why would a Hive Tyrant in a Formation not be allowed to score?
Please cite rules.

Of course, in a normal detachment, Hive Tyrants are an HQ, which is found in their parent codex. Hive Tyrants are listed under HQ. As HQs are not Troops, they would not be allowed to score. Warrriors are Troops, and are allowed to score. Rippers are Troops, but are not allowed to score due to the Swarm USR. Venomthropes are not listed under Troops in the parent codex, and are not allowed to score.
Taken in a formation, a Hive Tyrant is an HQ in the parent codex, and is thus not allowed to score. Warriors in the same detachment, are found under Troops, and are allowed to score.

So since Tervigons are listed as HQs, when taken as a Troop they are non-scoring?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
This is the rule you are referring to?
pg 123- "An army's scoring unis are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization chart".
I see the word normally there myself. Formations are not normal- apply the levels of alliance to Allied Formations.

There's no exception for Allied Formation troops to score.
You're correct that there's no prohibition, but, using your argument, why would a Hive Tyrant in a Formation not be allowed to score?
Please cite rules.

Of course, in a normal detachment, Hive Tyrants are an HQ, which is found in their parent codex. Hive Tyrants are listed under HQ. As HQs are not Troops, they would not be allowed to score. Warrriors are Troops, and are allowed to score. Rippers are Troops, but are not allowed to score due to the Swarm USR. Venomthropes are not listed under Troops in the parent codex, and are not allowed to score.
Taken in a formation, a Hive Tyrant is an HQ in the parent codex, and is thus not allowed to score. Warriors in the same detachment, are found under Troops, and are allowed to score.

And not a single rules citation that contradicts page 123. It's like you're not even trying.
Page 123 isn't limited to Primary detachments. You're artificially limiting it - or expanding what is allowed to score - without citing a rule to do so.

Please cite actual rules instead of pontificating.

liturgies of blood wrote:Can you show some rules to back up this opinion?

Troops are scoring as of page 123(An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organizaiont chart). HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies are never mentioned as scoring, unless a rule specifically lets them such as Big Guns Never Tire, or that allows them to be used as Troops(Baron Sathonyx and Hellions). Troops are always counted as scoring, as evidenced by Allies(it mentions when they are not scoring. If Troops are not scoring in Desperate Allies, then they must be scoring in Battle Brothers), and the Formations rules to use to refer to the levels of alliance for restrictions(If a formation of Desperate Allies Troops are not scoring, then a formation of Battle Brothers Troops must be scoring).

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Troops are scoring as of page 123.

False rules quote == false premise == false conclusions.

Please read page 123 and quote it correctly.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Troops are scoring as of page 123.

False rules quote == false premise == false conclusions.

Please read page 123 and quote it correctly.

Quote added.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Troops are scoring as of page 123.

False rules quote == false premise == false conclusions.

Please read page 123 and quote it correctly.

Quote added.

And the correct quote completely invalidates your conclusions.
You also left in a false assumption ("Troops are always counted as scoring").

Troop selections are scoring. Troops that are not Troop selections (ie - chosen to fill a box on the FOC) are not scoring.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Troops are scoring as of page 123.

False rules quote == false premise == false conclusions.

Please read page 123 and quote it correctly.

Quote added.

And the correct quote completely invalidates your conclusions.
You also left in a false assumption ("Troops are always counted as scoring").

Troop selections are scoring. Troops that are not Troop selections (ie - chosen to fill a box on the FOC) are not scoring.

Then allow me to add, HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies are never told when they are not scoring as Troops are. Troops are not scoring when it specifically mentions they don't.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Then allow me to add, HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies are never told when they are not scoring as Troops are. Troops are not scoring when it specifically mentions they don't.

Page 123 specifically contradicts that statement. Do you have a rule supporting your statement?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Then allow me to add, HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies are never told when they are not scoring as Troops are. Troops are not scoring when it specifically mentions they don't.

Page 123 specifically contradicts that statement. Do you have a rule supporting your statement?

Which part of page 123 specifically contradicts that statement?

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Then allow me to add, HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies are never told when they are not scoring as Troops are. Troops are not scoring when it specifically mentions they don't.

Page 123 specifically contradicts that statement. Do you have a rule supporting your statement?

Which part of page 123 specifically contradicts that statement?

The one that says Troop *selections* score. That key word you continuously ignore.

The bit that says that says what units score.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Then allow me to add, HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies are never told when they are not scoring as Troops are. Troops are not scoring when it specifically mentions they don't.

Page 123 specifically contradicts that statement. Do you have a rule supporting your statement?

Which part of page 123 specifically contradicts that statement?

The one that says Troop *selections* score. That key word you continuously ignore.

I'm sorry, I read that as troop selections score. Troops as defined by the codex. Selections is never mentioned again- even within the accompanying paragraph- "The main exceptions are in the Big Guns Never Tire mission(see page 128) and The Scouring mission (see page 129). The presence of other units within 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it. There are a few exceptions, however, when a unit of troops does not count as a scoring unit:". No mention of selection in that paragraph at all. It states obviously that only troops can control objectives, or when a troop does not score. Not that only troop selections can control objectives, or when troop selections do not score. It just mentions troops.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Then allow me to add, HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies are never told when they are not scoring as Troops are. Troops are not scoring when it specifically mentions they don't.

Page 123 specifically contradicts that statement. Do you have a rule supporting your statement?

Which part of page 123 specifically contradicts that statement?

The one that says Troop *selections* score. That key word you continuously ignore.

I'm sorry, I read that as troop selections score. Troops as defined by the codex. Selections is never mentioned again- even within the accompanying paragraph- "The main exceptions are in the Big Guns Never Tire mission(see page 128) and The Scouring mission (see page 129). The presence of other units within 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it. There are a few exceptions, however, when a unit of troops does not count as a scoring unit:". No mention of selection in that paragraph at all. It states obviously that only troops can control objectives, or when a troop does not score. Not that only troop selections can control objectives, or when troop selections do not score. It just mentions troops.

Troop selections score.
Find permission for anything that is not a troop selection to score. I've asked before and wasn't ever provided with an answer. Your argument hinges on finding something.
We know how "selection" is defined.

Sooooooo.... how is a unit of troops scoring? It's a selection.
You seem to understand that what you can put in a troops selection is usually troops (from the army list) and that page 123 is important but fail to grasp that to be a troop as per page 129 you are a troops selection as the FOC in the brb covers selections for allied and primary detachments. The rules don't have any diagram for the formations nor do the formations list units as being HQ, Troops etc selections.

Without the wording to say that units are in a slot they are not in one.

I'm sorry that the general words that GW use are not specific enough for your liking but the rules of what's scoring is on page 123. If you have a problem with that I'd talk to Matt Ward as he's just finished dealing with the hate mail for his last codex.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Then allow me to add, HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies are never told when they are not scoring as Troops are. Troops are not scoring when it specifically mentions they don't.

Page 123 specifically contradicts that statement. Do you have a rule supporting your statement?

Which part of page 123 specifically contradicts that statement?

The one that says Troop *selections* score. That key word you continuously ignore.

I'm sorry, I read that as troop selections score. Troops as defined by the codex. Selections is never mentioned again- even within the accompanying paragraph- "The main exceptions are in the Big Guns Never Tire mission(see page 128) and The Scouring mission (see page 129). The presence of other units within 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it. There are a few exceptions, however, when a unit of troops does not count as a scoring unit:". No mention of selection in that paragraph at all. It states obviously that only troops can control objectives, or when a troop does not score. Not that only troop selections can control objectives, or when troop selections do not score. It just mentions troops.

Troop selections score.
Find permission for anything that is not a troop selection to score. I've asked before and wasn't ever provided with an answer. Your argument hinges on finding something.
We know how "selection" is defined.

You were provided an answer- When Big Guns Never Tire, and Baron Sathonyx allows Hellion units to score. Big Guns specifically allows Heavy Support units to score, while Baron Sathonyx allows Hellions to be taken as troops, giving them the ability to score.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
You were provided an answer- When Big Guns Never Tire, and Baron Sathonyx allows Hellion units to score. Big Guns specifically allows Heavy Support units to score, while Baron Sathonyx allows Hellions to be taken as troops, giving them the ability to score.

And all those specifically state that a non-troops selection scores. Now where is there specific permission for non-troops selection to score regarding formations?

 Sinful Hero wrote:
You were provided an answer- When Big Guns Never Tire, and Baron Sathonyx allows Hellion units to score. Big Guns specifically allows Heavy Support units to score, while Baron Sathonyx allows Hellions to be taken as troops, giving them the ability to score.

Great. And what relevance does that have on your "ALL TROOPS ARE TROOPS AND ALL TROOPS SCORE ALWAYS" argument?

Cite permission for something that isn't a troop selection to score. For clarification, I'm talking about the subject of this thread - anything in Formation detachments.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Sooooooo.... how is a unit of troops scoring? It's a selection.
You seem to understand that what you can put in a troops selection is usually troops (from the army list) and that page 123 is important but fail to grasp that to be a troop as per page 129 you are a troops selection as the FOC in the brb covers selections for allied and primary detachments. The rules don't have any diagram for the formations nor do the formations list units as being HQ, Troops etc selections.

Without the wording to say that units are in a slot they are not in one.

I'm sorry that the general words that GW use are not specific enough for your liking but the rules of what's scoring is on page 123. If you have a problem with that I'd talk to Matt Ward as he's just finished dealing with the hate mail for his last codex.

Page 123 states that troops control objectives, not troop selections. I'm sorry that the general words that GW use are not specific enough for your liking but the rules of what's scoring is on page 123. If you have a problem with that I'd talk to Matt Ward as he's just finished dealing with the hate mail for his last codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
You were provided an answer- When Big Guns Never Tire, and Baron Sathonyx allows Hellion units to score. Big Guns specifically allows Heavy Support units to score, while Baron Sathonyx allows Hellions to be taken as troops, giving them the ability to score.

Great. And what relevance does that have on your "ALL TROOPS ARE TROOPS AND ALL TROOPS SCORE ALWAYS" argument?

Cite permission for something that isn't a troop selection to score. For clarification, I'm talking about the subject of this thread - anything in Formation detachments.

ALLIED FORMATIONS
Formations do not count as your army’s Allied Detachment, even if they are made up of units
from a different codex to your Primary Detachment, and they do not stop you from taking an
Allied Detachment in the same army. However, the Levels of Alliance rules from the
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook do apply to them and units chosen from a different codex that
are in the same army.
For example, if you included an Ork Formation in the same army as a Primary Detachment
from Codex: Space Marines, then the units from the two Detachments would treat each other
as desperate allies. However, the Ork Formation would not stop you taking an Allied
Detachment in the same army.

This rule here specifically states when a troop is not scoring, a Desperate Alliance. Your whole argument hinges on the word "selection", which is not even found in the rest of the paragraph. Troops units control objectives. Troops are defined when not scoring with the following. No rules contradicts that Battle Brother formations are scoring. Troops control objectives, not troop selections.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Sooooooo.... how is a unit of troops scoring? It's a selection.
You seem to understand that what you can put in a troops selection is usually troops (from the army list) and that page 123 is important but fail to grasp that to be a troop as per page 129 you are a troops selection as the FOC in the brb covers selections for allied and primary detachments. The rules don't have any diagram for the formations nor do the formations list units as being HQ, Troops etc selections.

Without the wording to say that units are in a slot they are not in one.

I'm sorry that the general words that GW use are not specific enough for your liking but the rules of what's scoring is on page 123. If you have a problem with that I'd talk to Matt Ward as he's just finished dealing with the hate mail for his last codex.

Page 123 states that troops control objectives, not troop selections. I'm sorry that the general words that GW use are not specific enough for your liking but the rules of what's scoring is on page 123. If you have a problem with that I'd talk to Matt Ward as he's just finished dealing with the hate mail for his last codex.

Hmm. I'm not seeing on page 123 that troops control objectives. I see that scoring units control objectives, and that scoring units are units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation Chart (which as rigeld has shown multiple times means it fills a Troops slot on the FOC).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
You were provided an answer- When Big Guns Never Tire, and Baron Sathonyx allows Hellion units to score. Big Guns specifically allows Heavy Support units to score, while Baron Sathonyx allows Hellions to be taken as troops, giving them the ability to score.

Great. And what relevance does that have on your "ALL TROOPS ARE TROOPS AND ALL TROOPS SCORE ALWAYS" argument?

Cite permission for something that isn't a troop selection to score. For clarification, I'm talking about the subject of this thread - anything in Formation detachments.

ALLIED FORMATIONS
Formations do not count as your army’s Allied Detachment, even if they are made up of units
from a different codex to your Primary Detachment, and they do not stop you from taking an
Allied Detachment in the same army. However, the Levels of Alliance rules from the
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook do apply to them and units chosen from a different codex that
are in the same army.
For example, if you included an Ork Formation in the same army as a Primary Detachment
from Codex: Space Marines, then the units from the two Detachments would treat each other
as desperate allies. However, the Ork Formation would not stop you taking an Allied
Detachment in the same army.

This rule here specifically states when a troop is not scoring, a Desperate Alliance. Your whole argument hinges on the word "selection", which is not even found in the rest of the paragraph. Troops units control objectives. Troops are defined when not scoring with the following. No rules contradicts that Battle Brother formations are scoring. Troops control objectives, not troop selections.

I don't see anything in ALLIED FORMATIONS that even mentions scoring.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Sooooooo.... how is a unit of troops scoring? It's a selection.
You seem to understand that what you can put in a troops selection is usually troops (from the army list) and that page 123 is important but fail to grasp that to be a troop as per page 129 you are a troops selection as the FOC in the brb covers selections for allied and primary detachments. The rules don't have any diagram for the formations nor do the formations list units as being HQ, Troops etc selections.

Without the wording to say that units are in a slot they are not in one.

I'm sorry that the general words that GW use are not specific enough for your liking but the rules of what's scoring is on page 123. If you have a problem with that I'd talk to Matt Ward as he's just finished dealing with the hate mail for his last codex.

Page 123 states that troops control objectives, not troop selections. I'm sorry that the general words that GW use are not specific enough for your liking but the rules of what's scoring is on page 123. If you have a problem with that I'd talk to Matt Ward as he's just finished dealing with the hate mail for his last codex.

Hmm. I'm not seeing on page 123 that troops control objectives. I see that scoring units control objectives, and that scoring units are units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation Chart (which as rigeld has shown multiple times means it fills a Troops slot on the FOC).

Troops control objectives, not scoring units. The sentence on page 123 in full- "The presence of other units within 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it." Troops, not scoring units.

However, the Levels of Alliance rules from the
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook do apply to them and units chosen from a different codex that
are in the same army.
Applying the levels of alliance rules to formations would equate to a Desperate Alliance, troops are not scoring. Battle Brothers, troops are scoring. To not be scoring in a desperate alliance, would mean they must be scoring in Battle Brothers.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Page 123 states that troops control objectives, not troop selections.

Really? So soon after you quoted the actual rule?

An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart

It says, factually, that scoring units come from the troops selection of the FOC. So your statement is absolutely incorrect - and you've been corrected about this before. Please stop spreading false information.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
You were provided an answer- When Big Guns Never Tire, and Baron Sathonyx allows Hellion units to score. Big Guns specifically allows Heavy Support units to score, while Baron Sathonyx allows Hellions to be taken as troops, giving them the ability to score.

Great. And what relevance does that have on your "ALL TROOPS ARE TROOPS AND ALL TROOPS SCORE ALWAYS" argument?

Cite permission for something that isn't a troop selection to score. For clarification, I'm talking about the subject of this thread - anything in Formation detachments.

ALLIED FORMATIONS
Formations do not count as your army’s Allied Detachment, even if they are made up of units
from a different codex to your Primary Detachment, and they do not stop you from taking an
Allied Detachment in the same army. However, the Levels of Alliance rules from the
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook do apply to them and units chosen from a different codex that
are in the same army.

Nope, not seeing the word "scoring" or "selection" in there.

For example, if you included an Ork Formation in the same army as a Primary Detachment
from Codex: Space Marines, then the units from the two Detachments would treat each other
as desperate allies. However, the Ork Formation would not stop you taking an Allied
Detachment in the same army.

Not even in the example.

This rule here specifically states when a troop is not scoring, a Desperate Alliance. Your whole argument hinges on the word "selection", which is not even found in the rest of the paragraph. Troops units control objectives. Troops are defined when not scoring with the following.

Your argument requires you to ignore the word "selection" in the rule I've quoted above to be valid. Agreed?

Simple question - do you agree with that statement or not.

ALLIED FORMATIONS
Formations do not count as your army’s Allied Detachment, even if they are made up of units
from a different codex to your Primary Detachment, and they do not stop you from taking an
Allied Detachment in the same army. However, the Levels of Alliance rules from the
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook do apply to them and units chosen from a different codex that
are in the same army.
For example, if you included an Ork Formation in the same army as a Primary Detachment
from Codex: Space Marines, then the units from the two Detachments would treat each other
as desperate allies. However, the Ork Formation would not stop you taking an Allied
Detachment in the same army.

I'm seeing it right there. Applying the Levels of Alliance rules to formations results in troops in Desperate Alliances to not be scoring. For something to not be scoring, it had to be scoring in the first place. Applying that logic, troops in Battle Brother alliances must be scoring, and troops in Allies of Convenience must be scoring. HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies must have permission to be scoring, which they are not given anywhere in the levels of alliance.
You keep saying, "B-B-But they aren't troop selections of the FOC!", which obviously Formations don't recognize nor use the rules for FOC. They use the rules found in the dataslate, the codex, and the Levels of Alliance. The Levels of Alliance implies troops are scoring, except when in Desperate Alliance. HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies rules are never mentioned, so you can apply the BRB rules to them- they don't score. Fairly simple logic here.
How do we know a unit is a Troop with no FOC? By their codex entry.

FORMATIONS
A Formation presents a collection of two or more units that fight alongside one another in a
particular way. When you choose an army, you can take a Formation as a special form of
Detachment. Unless otherwise stated, you can take any number of Formations in your army,
and each is considered to be a completely separate Detachment, regardless of how many units
make it up.
Each Formation will tell you what units you need to take and what, if any, options or
restrictions apply to the units that make up that Formation. The Army List Entries for each
unit in the Formation (the units’ profiles, points values, unit types, unit composition, special
rules, battlefield role etc.) can either be found in the codex corresponding to the Faction on
the datasheet, or elsewhere in the dataslate itself.

A unit of Hormaguants is a Troop in their codex. Troops are not scoring in Desperate Alliances. So troops must be scoring in Battle Brothers, and Allies of Convenience.
A Hive Tyrant is an HQ in its codex. A HQ is never scoring unless given permission to do so. The Levels of Alliance never give permission to HQs to score, nor is it mentioned when they do not score. It is never implied they can score.

Troops in Formations are allied to score because you apply the Levels of Alliance to them, not the FOC. The FOC is irrelevant to whether Troops are scoring in Formations- only the Levels of Alliance. Troops are mentioned as not scoring in Desperate Alliances, and to not be scoring in one form of alliance they must obviously be able to score in others(Battle Brothers and Allies of Convenience).

 Sinful Hero wrote:
ALLIED FORMATIONS
Formations do not count as your army’s Allied Detachment, even if they are made up of units
from a different codex to your Primary Detachment, and they do not stop you from taking an
Allied Detachment in the same army. However, the Levels of Alliance rules from the
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook do apply to them and units chosen from a different codex that
are in the same army.
For example, if you included an Ork Formation in the same army as a Primary Detachment
from Codex: Space Marines, then the units from the two Detachments would treat each other
as desperate allies. However, the Ork Formation would not stop you taking an Allied
Detachment in the same army.

I'm seeing it right there. Applying the Levels of Alliance rules to formations results in troops in Desperate Alliances to not be scoring. For something to not be scoring, it had to be scoring in the first place. Applying that logic, troops in Battle Brother alliances must be scoring, and troops in Allies of Convenience must be scoring. HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies must have permission to be scoring, which they are not given anywhere in the levels of alliance.
You keep saying, "B-B-But they aren't troop selections of the FOC!", which obviously Formations don't recognize nor use the rules for FOC. They use the rules found in the dataslate, the codex, and the Levels of Alliance. The Levels of Alliance implies troops are scoring, except when in Desperate Alliance. HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies rules are never mentioned, so you can apply the BRB rules to them- they don't score. Fairly simple logic here.

You're taking a rule from the BRB (Desperate Allies) that applies to rules in the BRB (scoring selections) and making assumptions based off of it.
Not a valid tactic in a debate.
I underlined where you're making an assumption. Are you arguing RAI or RAW?

How do we know a unit is a Troop with no FOC? By their codex entry.

A unit of Hormaguants is a Troop in their codex. Troops are not scoring in Desperate Alliances. So troops must be scoring in Battle Brothers, and Allies of Convenience.

If they are troop selections, yes. Since, you know, that's what the rule says.

Troops in Formations are allied to score because you apply the Levels of Alliance to them, not the FOC. The FOC is irrelevant to whether Troops are scoring in Formations- only the Levels of Alliance. Troops are mentioned as not scoring in Desperate Alliances, and to not be scoring in one form of alliance they must obviously be able to score in others(Battle Brothers and Allies of Convenience).

Please cite the exact rule from Levels of Alliance that allows Formation troops to score. Not an implication or assumption, the actual rule.

I'll ask again because you refused to answer:
Your argument requires you to ignore the word "selection" in the rule I've quoted above to be valid. Agreed?

Simple question - do you agree with that statement or not.

So you are saying that it's not troop slots that matter for allied units it's the army list?

Does that mean that my allied army with logan grimnar and all WG troops selections doesn't score?

Can you show any rules to back up that the formations don't require troops slots? Or will you continue to make a false equivalence that is not backed up by the rules?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
If units that are from the troops section of the army list are always scoring then why does conjuration powers remind you that it's only troop selections?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
ALLIED FORMATIONS
Formations do not count as your army’s Allied Detachment, even if they are made up of units
from a different codex to your Primary Detachment, and they do not stop you from taking an
Allied Detachment in the same army. However, the Levels of Alliance rules from the
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook do apply to them and units chosen from a different codex that
are in the same army.
For example, if you included an Ork Formation in the same army as a Primary Detachment
from Codex: Space Marines, then the units from the two Detachments would treat each other
as desperate allies. However, the Ork Formation would not stop you taking an Allied
Detachment in the same army.

I'm seeing it right there. Applying the Levels of Alliance rules to formations results in troops in Desperate Alliances to not be scoring. For something to not be scoring, it had to be scoring in the first place. Applying that logic, troops in Battle Brother alliances must be scoring, and troops in Allies of Convenience must be scoring. HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies must have permission to be scoring, which they are not given anywhere in the levels of alliance.
You keep saying, "B-B-But they aren't troop selections of the FOC!", which obviously Formations don't recognize nor use the rules for FOC. They use the rules found in the dataslate, the codex, and the Levels of Alliance. The Levels of Alliance implies troops are scoring, except when in Desperate Alliance. HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies rules are never mentioned, so you can apply the BRB rules to them- they don't score. Fairly simple logic here.

You're taking a rule from the BRB (Desperate Allies) that applies to rules in the BRB (scoring selections) and making assumptions based off of it.
Not a valid tactic in a debate.
I underlined where you're making an assumption. Are you arguing RAI or RAW?

How do we know a unit is a Troop with no FOC? By their codex entry.

A unit of Hormaguants is a Troop in their codex. Troops are not scoring in Desperate Alliances. So troops must be scoring in Battle Brothers, and Allies of Convenience.

If they are troop selections, yes. Since, you know, that's what the rule says.

Troops in Formations are allied to score because you apply the Levels of Alliance to them, not the FOC. The FOC is irrelevant to whether Troops are scoring in Formations- only the Levels of Alliance. Troops are mentioned as not scoring in Desperate Alliances, and to not be scoring in one form of alliance they must obviously be able to score in others(Battle Brothers and Allies of Convenience).

Please cite the exact rule from Levels of Alliance that allows Formation troops to score. Not an implication or assumption, the actual rule.

I'll ask again because you refused to answer:
Your argument requires you to ignore the word "selection" in the rule I've quoted above to be valid. Agreed?

Simple question - do you agree with that statement or not.

Troops selections are scoring. Just as Troops are. Page 123 does not define a Troop, it defines a scoring unit, which is normally a troop selection. I'll quote again- "The presence of other units within 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it." Troops selections do not control objectives- Troops do. The only difference between Troops and troop selections is that selections do not have exceptions to be scoring except for the ones applied to Troops. Hellions taken as a Troop choice(such as with Baron Sathonyx) are scoring, even though they are normally an Elite unit, because they are taken as a troop selection. Tervigons taken as a Troop choice(such as with scuttling swarm) are scoring because they are taken as a troop selection.
All forms of troops follow these guidelines-
"If it is a vehicle, or is a unit currently embarked on a Transport vehicle, or is occupying a building.
If it has the Swarms special rule.
If it has a special rules specifying that it never counts as a scoring unit.
If it is currently falling back (If the unit Regroups it immediately reverts to being a scoring unit again)."

Page 128, under Big Guns Never Tire, Heavy Metal:
"Unlike other missions, in Big Guns Never Tire, your heavy units are scoring units, not just your troops units.

Notice the lack of troop selections? Seems to clearly state that troop units are scoring without mentioning whether they are a selection. Being a selection is not required to be scoring, merely being a troop.

Page 112, under Desperate Allies:
"Desperate Allies are treated exactly like Allies of Convenience. Furthermore, if your primary detachment is in desperate alliance, units from that allied detachment are non-scoring, non-denial units."

Notice how you treat Desperate Allies exactly, as Allies of Convenience, but for the non-scoring, non-denial part? Again, troops are control objectives(score), not just troop selections.
Troop selections, and Troops score. So no, I do not have to agree to ignore selections on page 123. Both control objectives, and both score. Scoring troops are not limited to selections, but normally they are(because normally you can only field through the Primary FOC), which is why normally was dropped into the sentence- for exceptions such as Big Guns Never Tire, Alliances, and even Formations. The examples above reinforce the idea that Troops score unless it mentions they do not. Not just Troop selections, but all Troops.

If all troops are scoring I'll ask again, why does conjuration remind you that units only score as per page 123?

If you are correct please square this circle. If it's not too much could you also avoid taking leaps of logic and introducing inferences that are not supported with the RAW and calling it so.

If you are arguing intent that's cool just let us know.

I'll ask again because you refused to answer:
Your argument requires you to ignore the word "selection" in the rule I've quoted above to be valid. Agreed?

Simple question - do you agree with that statement or not.

Apparently if I answer some of your other points you miss this question. Perhaps if I ask it alone you won't.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
If all troops are scoring I'll ask again, why does conjuration remind you that units only score as per page 123?

If you are correct please square this circle. If it's not too much could you also avoid taking leaps of logic and introducing inferences that are not supported with the RAW and calling it so.

If you are arguing intent that's cool just let us know.

Conjuration?
Ultimately it would appear I'm arguing Intent, so RAI. My point is that Troops score whether they are selections or not, unless specifically mentioned they do not. The opposite of HQs, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavies- they must be mentioned to be scoring to be able to score. otherwise they are not scoring units.

rigeld2 wrote:
I'll ask again because you refused to answer:
Your argument requires you to ignore the word "selection" in the rule I've quoted above to be valid. Agreed?

Simple question - do you agree with that statement or not.

Apparently if I answer some of your other points you miss this question. Perhaps if I ask it alone you won't.

I thought I did- No, I do not agree with the statement. My argument does not ignore the word "selection". It includes it- Troop selections of the FOC are scoring, as are Troops taken from other sources(such as formations from dataslates).

Ok as you're arguing RAI, then it doesn't matter. Myself and Rigeld are arguing RAW.

I don't bother with RAI as it's impossible to say what the design team were going for.

rigeld2 wrote:
I'll ask again because you refused to answer:
Your argument requires you to ignore the word "selection" in the rule I've quoted above to be valid. Agreed?

Simple question - do you agree with that statement or not.

Apparently if I answer some of your other points you miss this question. Perhaps if I ask it alone you won't.

They are Troops selections because they are units in the the Troop section of the army list. If your trying to hang your argument of the definition of a word, your typically wrong.

Lol,
fragile didn't you hang your argument on "normally"?

Also they are troops selections as they are in the troops slots on the FOC. Those units come from the troops section of the army list in most cases but rules move other units in there.
Again it's not where you are in the army list it's where you are on the FOC that matters because that's what the rules say.

For Overwatch? Not really. But it makes sense. In this thread, no.

Again it's not where you are in the army list it's where you are on the FOC that matters because that's what the rules say.

And that is where you are trying to twist the word to make it exclusive where it doesnt say that it is.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Ok as you're arguing RAI, then it doesn't matter. Myself and Rigeld are arguing RAW.

I don't bother with RAI as it's impossible to say what the design team were going for.

So you're saying RAI: troops in formations are scoring, but RAW: they are not? Is that the conclusion that has been reached so far? Because I've provided plenty of reasons why they were intended to be scoring.

No I am saying RAI is unclear and the RAW is so very different from your view on RAI. There are rules that allow for the creation of non scoring units from the troops section of an army list in several places such as the conjuration powers. I don't see anything strongly pointing to these formations being in troop slots.

You've spent two pages wasting time as myself and rigeld were arguing RAW. I don't argue about opinions as that is a waste of time.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
No I am saying RAI is unclear and the RAW is so very different from your view on RAI. There are rules that allow for the creation of non scoring units from the troops section of an army list in several places such as the conjuration powers. I don't see anything strongly pointing to these formations being in troop slots.

You've spent two pages wasting time as myself and rigeld were arguing RAW. I don't argue about opinions as that is a waste of time.

RAI is pretty clear. RAW henges on the word selection and a narrow view of normally, so no it's not too far from RAI. RAI is not opinion, but intent. Rules as intended? Formations say to refer to levels of alliance as to which rules apply to them. Treating a formation as an alliance, troops are scoring except when in desperate alliance.
We are not arguing whether spawned troops score, but whether formation troops score.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furthermore, spawned troops are made during the game, while formations are selected during list building.

RAI is (your) opinion on the intent of the rules writers. Intent is something you cannot tell clearly on a prima facia basis, that's why we have juries in the real world. You say the intent is clear, I disagree. Both opinions are just as valid because that's how belief works and we cannot know the intent until an FAQ deals with this situation.

You have to treat formations as alliances to know how the units interact with others in your army. If they have the desperate allies restrictions etc. That's all you can actually say without pulling stuff from the aether.

We are also not arguing about alliance rules but conjuration powers and spawned units occupy an area in your army outside the FOC as per page 109 just like the formation we are talking about. The portalglyph and those powers don't state units are scoring, conjuration goes as far as to remind us they don't.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Nem wrote:
These 'Force org' and 'Roles' are at points in the BRB are also referred to as 'Battlefield roles' this is confusing, and the wording is very inconsistent between the three throughout (like somebody couldn't make their mind up) but they are all essentially the same thing.

The bolded is false. Please quote one time, ever, in the BRB where the words "battlefield role" occur together. Page number and quote the sentence please.

My mistake, In the BRB they are only referred to as Army List (this one is used in codex's), Force org and Roles - only in later publications do we see battlefield role.

Another issue is that as spawned units, or units which arrive on the board in such a way are never selected. These would then need specific permission to be allowed score, there have been a few examples around on different threads but the crux is spawned units act as a normal codex unit, as do formation units.

The actual rules for a Tervigon at least do use the word "selected" so... non issue.
The Portalglyph rules do not use the word selected, so they wouldn't score.


What I'm getting is that some people assume that all Troops are always scoring unless told otherwise - which isn't what the rules actually say. Since I'm discussing rules here I'd rather go with what the rules actually say than what someone assumes or thinks is intended.

I've asked for evidence. No one has ever provided it. I've explained why that evidence is needed. I've been mocked in return. I've been told that reasonable people see it the other way - which isn't actually using rules to discuss the issue.

RAI - I think the Portalglyph Troops should be allowed to score, but I don't think the Dataslates are as clear cut.

I don't mean to come across as mocking, though I will pick apart what the implications of using selections to justify none scoring formations in a game when you come to the table (Which we can appreciate is a different situation, but some people will use anything they can get their hands on to assert themselves.) means for other rules.
This is because I believe its inconsequential.
Through pointing out the mess which is the terminology on this subject, and the inconstancies it causes with other rules many believe are well established to be questioned if this word actually is suppose to impact how we play, a long side the fact the BRB in this case is outdated and strict BRB RAW there is no possibility to take formations in the first place.

HIWPI
Scoring, DS's like the Genestealer ones are massive point sinks with locked in choices, outside a unusually high point games this makes it pretty much useless as the player would have to go for a crushing victory. The [usual] downside of data slates are often overlooked, you get fluffy combinations at the price of having to take 'those' units.

RAI
Scoring, Troops always being scoring IS a common assumption, being so common its less likely the designers released DS after DS forgetting to note, remind, or point out in any publication these troops are not scoring.
There's also the really big lit up Troops.
In addition, the rules point out both when a troops unit is and is not scoring, this situation is not mentioned in either.

Raw
Either

Selection does in fact act as a limitation on the rules, this would mean...

- Troops in formations do not score
- Though, Formation heavy and fast attack do score during big guns and scouring (Due to lack of 'selection' in those rules AKA they only have to be a HS unit, not a HS selection.)
- Dedication transports in any detachment can not score when taken for a troops unit (again HS&Fast are unaffected), even when your vehicle can (As while they count as the same Army list/Force Org/ section as the unit they were bought for, the DT unit are not selected for the FOC, they are noted as sitting outside the force org structure).
- Some troops which are spawned/ appear mid game may or may not score, depending on whether 'selection' appears in their own rules

Selection does not act as a limitation in which case they...

- Act like any other detachments in these respects.


Me; There is no RAW covering this in the BRB, they are not listed as scoring troops, neither are they listed under the conditions of not being scoring troops.

Happyjew wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
What the rule book says is models called Troops are scoring, unless stated otherwise.

Absolutely, 100% false.
It actually says, and I've quoted this at least twice before,

An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart

I underlined the word that you keep ignoring - it's a very important word.

"An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart"

To meet these qualifications a unit must be taken from the 'troops selection'. This does not mean they must currently exist there. Units in formations are purchased the same way as primary units are, from the FOC in the codex. There's no other way to purchase them. Then placing them in a formation does not change where they are from, it only makes them not take up a selection, it does not mean they are not from one.


Also the troops(plural) selection(singular) means it's referring to a singular or general selection with several troop options. This cannot refer to the specific troops occupying the FOC as that would have to be expressed as 'troop selections'. Given the words they use and the correct meaning given their order and tense it seems clear to me that it only matters in which part of the FOC they originate, not where they end up and that the 'troops selection' refers to a singular but wide category of possible troop selections available on the FOC as opposed to a single specific selection that would leave you with only one scoring unit.

Abandon, the rule you quoted yourself says "troops selection of the Force Organisation Chart." Not troops selections from the Army List.

The FOC is not just there for reference and keeping track of your unit requirements, etc. It's also how you purchase your units from the codex. Literally every unit you purchase in a normal fashion is from the FOC and formation units are indeed purchased as normal from the codex.

As I believe you see things, to be from the 'troops selection' you must be on the FOC, taking up a slot or 'selection'. Given the possibility of specific terms having specific meanings you might be right but there's some problems with that. The most pointed of which is that it uses the singular term 'selection' indicating that in that case only one selection(slot) would be scoring.

However if you reevaluate the meaning your associating with 'troops selection' and consider it could also be used to refer to a non-specific single category or general selection containing troops options troop options available from the FOC. The entire range of troop possibilities from the FOC (not any particular selections) can correctly be called the 'troops selection of the FOC' by referring to the troop options, not the specific final choices which would have to be called 'selections'.

Troops is a plural, so many troops, as in the selection of the troops or units in the army. So the selection of troops, the array of units, is scoring.

You can select or choose a plurality of items, it's funny how words work. If you disagree can you show that the following is an incorrect sentence. "My selection of seven rings."

Abandon, you see that sentence on page 123? You see how it is talking about a plural of units and says that "all the units(plural) that come from the troops(plural) selection".
It's almost as if the words on the page disagree completely with you.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'll ask again because you refused to answer:
Your argument requires you to ignore the word "selection" in the rule I've quoted above to be valid. Agreed?

Simple question - do you agree with that statement or not.

Apparently if I answer some of your other points you miss this question. Perhaps if I ask it alone you won't.

They are Troops selections because they are units in the the Troop section of the army list. If your trying to hang your argument of the definition of a word, your typically wrong.

Yeah, it's totally irrelevant when the rules define a word to base your argument on how they define that word.
Well played.

Or, actually - no. If the rules define that word, arguments must include that definition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'll ask again because you refused to answer:
Your argument requires you to ignore the word "selection" in the rule I've quoted above to be valid. Agreed?

Simple question - do you agree with that statement or not.

Apparently if I answer some of your other points you miss this question. Perhaps if I ask it alone you won't.

I thought I did- No, I do not agree with the statement. My argument does not ignore the word "selection". It includes it- Troop selections of the FOC are scoring, as are Troops taken from other sources(such as formations from dataslates).

Care to cite a rule saying that troops from other sources are scoring?
You keep saying the rules support it but fail - consistently - to prove that.

Regardless, you've admitted that your argument isn't RAW so I'm done. I don't care to argue intent.

Glad to see there are no more arguments as to the intent of the rules, now we can get down to the RAW meat of it.
Troops selection and Troops are used interchangeably, because they mean the same thing- Troops are scoring.

For example. pg 123 of the BRB reads-
"An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization chart - the main exceptions are in the Big Guns Never Tire mission (see page 128) and The Scouring mission (see page 129). The presence of other units within 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it. There are a few exceptions, however, when a unit of troops does not count as a scoring unit:"

As evidenced by the BRB, we can see that troops selection is replaced by troops. Troops and troops selection are not mutually exclusive terms.

But let's look at the Force Organization chart, perhaps we can find troops selection there. Page 109.

I see troops, but I see no troops selection. Could someone find a troops selection for me?

Perhaps a troops selection is defined in the rules? Unfortunately, I have been unable to find a definition of a troops selection in the BRB. I see that Troops are defined on page 108. Troops are in the glossary. In my Tyranid codex I see that several different units are under the Troops heading. There doesn't appear to be a definition for troops selection!


So, since troops are scoring unless an exemption is given, the rules state that troops found in formations are scoring.

But how do we know a unit from a formation is a Troop?

There is a large bold heading indication a unit is a Troop.

What I need to know is,
1. Troops and troops selection is not interchangeable. Find more examples of troops selection.
2. If they are not interchangeable, please find a definition for troops selection using the rules. What is a troops selection and how is it defined in the rules as written?
3. If troops and troops selection are different, then how does a troops selection control an objective- page 123 states that only troops control objectives. To score an objective, you must control it. But how can a troops selection score an objective when only a troop can control it?
4. Find an exemption to troops from formations being scoring. As the rules are written troops are scoring unless there is an exemption as shown on page 123 of the BRB.
5. Find something that contradicts a unit is not a troop in a formation- such as in the Genestealer example above. How is it not a troop? Where is it defined specifically as not being a troop?
6. Find a rule that states troops do not score in a formation.
7. Locate a "troops selection" on the Force Organization Chart.

I've never seen anywhere that says scoring units must be from the troops FOC.

take for instance Pedro Kantor, if he's your warlord your stern guard are scoring units.

if the category of unit is a troop choice, its a scoring unit. unless your compatibility as allies compromises that.

I think its evident that the latest chaos formations of helbrutes exhibit this. it doesn't specifically say but the cultist/helbrute formation seems to be designed entirely on the premise that the owning player move this formation to an objective and park his ass there to make it a pain for you to remove him.

the only exception to this rule seems to be that Imperial Knights and LotD are only scoring if they are part of a primary detachment.

they wouldn't put that there I think if it was common knowledge that detachments and allies couldn't be scoring units.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Troops selection and Troops are used interchangeably, because they mean the same thing- Troops are scoring.

Incorrect.

As evidenced by the BRB, we can see that troops selection is replaced by troops. Troops and troops selection are not mutually exclusive terms.

Plain English shows that the sentence uses the implied "... A unit of troops that is a troop selection". But you've ignored words left and right so I'll forgive that.

But let's look at the Force Organization chart, perhaps we can find troops selection there. Page 109.
http://6inchmove.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/warhammer-40000-foc.jpg
I see troops, but I see no troops selection. Could someone find a troops selection for me?

Read page 109.

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

So we know what a selection is. A Troop selection is a selection that fills a troop box on the chart.
I've provided the definition before. I know you didn't miss it - you've referred to it. I understand it's inconvenient for your argument, but the rules absolutely do show troop selections on the FOC.

Perhaps a troops selection is defined in the rules? Unfortunately, I have been unable to find a definition of a troops selection in the BRB. I see that Troops are defined on page 108. Troops are in the glossary. In my Tyranid codex I see that several different units are under the Troops heading. There doesn't appear to be a definition for troops selection!

As above, this is 100% false.

1. Troops and troops selection is not interchangeable. Find more examples of troops selection.
2. If they are not interchangeable, please find a definition for troops selection using the rules. What is a troops selection and how is it defined in the rules as written?
3. If troops and troops selection are different, then how does a troops selection control an objective- page 123 states that only troops control objectives. To score an objective, you must control it. But how can a troops selection score an objective when only a troop can control it?
4. Find an exemption to troops from formations being scoring. As the rules are written troops are scoring unless there is an exemption as shown on page 123 of the BRB.
5. Find something that contradicts a unit is not a troop in a formation- such as in the Genestealer example above. How is it not a troop? Where is it defined specifically as not being a troop?
6. Find a rule that states troops do not score in a formation.
7. Locate a "troops selection" on the Force Organization Chart.

1. It's for you to prove that they are interchangeable. Proving a negative is incorrect.
2. Read above.
3. You've incorrectly cited page 123 yet again. It explicitly says troop selections are scoring. Because if that, contextually, any reference to scoring troops must be " ... that are from a troop selection".
4. False, they are not scoring as they are not troop selections and have no rule allowing them to score.
5. Don't need to prove that - I conceded that long ago.
6. Done.
7. Done.

I've done all these throughout the thread. I know you've read those posts - you responded to them.
By posting this you've proven you aren't debating honestly. I'm sorry to see that. Especially since you've already marked your argument as RAI.

rigeld2 wrote:

By posting this you've proven you aren't debating honestly. I'm sorry to see that. Especially since you've already marked your argument as RAI.

So, a new tactic. Anyone who disagrees with a post you've made previously, i or - in your opinion - overlooks evidence posted previously, is dishonest.

We know that sometimes those who accuse others of crimes are not without guilt themselves. Let's have a look, shall we?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
[u]However, the Levels of Alliance rules from the
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook do apply to thems

You're taking a rule from the BRB (Desperate Allies) that applies to rules in the BRB (scoring selections) and making assumptions based off of it.
Not a valid tactic in a debate.
I underlined where you're making an assumption. Are you arguing RAI or RAW?

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

By posting this you've proven you aren't debating honestly. I'm sorry to see that. Especially since you've already marked your argument as RAI.

So, a new tactic. Anyone who disagrees with a post you've made previously, i or - in your opinion - overlooks evidence posted previously, is dishonest.

No, that's not what I've said. At all. It'd would behoove you to read and understand posts instead of attempting to vilify me.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
[u]However, the Levels of Alliance rules from the
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook do apply to thems

You're taking a rule from the BRB (Desperate Allies) that applies to rules in the BRB (scoring selections) and making assumptions based off of it.
Not a valid tactic in a debate.
I underlined where you're making an assumption. Are you arguing RAI or RAW?

In this post, you dismiss evidence that comes from the Dataslate itself, which has been posted repeatedly, and is entirely relevant to this argument. To quote again, the Vanguard dataslate, it specifically states that "a formation is a special form of Detachment" (p3) and for formations, "the Levels of Alliance Rules do apply to them." (p4) It further states that, "the battlefield role... can be found in the dataslate."

This has been posted before, in a reply to one of your posts. It's entirely relevant to this argument. You've just denied that this line in the dataslate exists. Did you not read that post?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Troops selection and Troops are used interchangeably, because they mean the same thing- Troops are scoring.

Incorrect.

No, my argument is correct.

As evidenced by the BRB, we can see that troops selection is replaced by troops. Troops and troops selection are not mutually exclusive terms.

Plain English shows that the sentence uses the implied "... A unit of troops that is a troop selection". But you've ignored words left and right so I'll forgive that.

I'm sorry, we're arguing RAW, not RAI here. Implications are irrelevant, we're arguing facts, and the fact is that selection is never mentioned again on page 123. Please, find where troops selection controls an objective and I'll concede the point.

But let's look at the Force Organization chart, perhaps we can find troops selection there. Page 109.

I see troops, but I see no troops selection. Could someone find a troops selection for me?

Read page 109.

Yes, thank you. I have, and there is no troops selection, only little squares with troops in them. Could you find a square with troops selection in it?

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

So we know what a selection is. A Troop selection is a selection that fills a troop box on the chart.
I've provided the definition before. I know you didn't miss it - you've referred to it. I understand it's inconvenient for your argument, but the rules absolutely do show troop selections on the FOC.

Perhaps a troops selection is defined in the rules? Unfortunately, I have been unable to find a definition of a troops selection in the BRB. I see that Troops are defined on page 108. Troops are in the glossary. In my Tyranid codex I see that several different units are under the Troops heading. There doesn't appear to be a definition for troops selection!

As above, this is 100% false.

Citations needed here.

1. Troops and troops selection is not interchangeable. Find more examples of troops selection.
2. If they are not interchangeable, please find a definition for troops selection using the rules. What is a troops selection and how is it defined in the rules as written?
3. If troops and troops selection are different, then how does a troops selection control an objective- page 123 states that only troops control objectives. To score an objective, you must control it. But how can a troops selection score an objective when only a troop can control it?
4. Find an exemption to troops from formations being scoring. As the rules are written troops are scoring unless there is an exemption as shown on page 123 of the BRB.
5. Find something that contradicts a unit is not a troop in a formation- such as in the Genestealer example above. How is it not a troop? Where is it defined specifically as not being a troop?
6. Find a rule that states troops do not score in a formation.
7. Locate a "troops selection" on the Force Organization Chart.

1. It's for you to prove that they are interchangeable. Proving a negative is incorrect.
2. Read above.
3. You've incorrectly cited page 123 yet again. It explicitly says troop selections are scoring. Because if that, contextually, any reference to scoring troops must be " ... that are from a troop selection".
4. False, they are not scoring as they are not troop selections and have no rule allowing them to score.
5. Don't need to prove that - I conceded that long ago.
6. Done.
7. Done.

I've done all these throughout the thread. I know you've read those posts - you responded to them.
By posting this you've proven you aren't debating honestly. I'm sorry to see that. Especially since you've already marked your argument as RAI.

Page 109 explains that the boxes on the chart allow you to make selections.
Meaning a troop box on the chart is filled by a troop selection.
As I've said multiple times. And you'd understand if you'd read page 109.

And context is RAW. Ignoring context is literally ignoring rules.

Could you provide the sentence stating that the boxes on the chart are troops selection and not troops? It would be most helpful. I can't find it myself.

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

The boxes on the chart allow you to make selections from the army list section of your codex.
Troop selections are scoring.
Troop selections == units chosen from the army list section of your codex to satisfy one box on the FOC.

I've spelled all of this out before. You've failed - utterly - to refute it. Instead you make wild assumptions and ignore important words to attempt to make your point.

@Rigled2,

Can you prove why the below statement is false? Saying something is "incorrect" with no proof or citations is not really winning an argument.

"Troops selection and Troops are used interchangeably, because they mean the same thing- Troops are scoring."




Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

Troop selections == units chosen from the army list section of your codex to satisfy one box on the FOC.

Citation is needed or this statement is just an opinion.

rigeld2 wrote:

I did. I've addressed it's relevance. Yes, the allies rules apply. No, there's no rule specifically denying scoring in the allies section (assuming not DA). Since you still don't have permission to score in the first place, however, it's irrelevant.

Thanks for posting this, it really helps illustrate your argument.

1: you've just dismissed, in the quoted post, the wording of the dataslate (despite reminders). Thanks for confirming your argument re the dataslate takes no account of the wording in the dataslate.

2: The dataslate wording specifies degrees of Alliance apply, precisely because some units are scoring. It would not otherwise be included.I t confirms that the BRB uses troops selections and troops for scoring troops interchangeably, as shown elsewhere.

Throughout this discussion, it seems the 'non-scoring' posts consistently don't quote or take account of the dataslate. Wouldn't it be a good idea to do so, as the dataslate is the subject of this debate?

rigeld2 wrote:

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

The boxes on the chart allow you to make selections from the army list section of your codex.
Troop selections are scoring.
Troop selections == units chosen from the army list section of your codex to satisfy one box on the FOC.

I've spelled all of this out before. You've failed - utterly - to refute it. Instead you make wild assumptions and ignore important words to attempt to make your point.

Exactly what page is that sentence from? I can't find it in the rules.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
1: you've just dismissed, in the quoted post, the wording of the dataslate (despite reminders). Thanks for confirming your argument re the dataslate takes no account of the wording in the dataslate.

No I haven't. My arguments take them into account. As I've said.

2: The dataslate wording specifies degrees of Alliance apply, precisely because some units are scoring. It would not otherwise be included.I t confirms that the BRB uses troops selections and troops for scoring troops interchangeably, as shown elsewhere.

Yes, degrees of Alliance apply. Please cite the rule that specifies allies are scoring.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

The boxes on the chart allow you to make selections from the army list section of your codex.
Troop selections are scoring.
Troop selections == units chosen from the army list section of your codex to satisfy one box on the FOC.

I've spelled all of this out before. You've failed - utterly - to refute it. Instead you make wild assumptions and ignore important words to attempt to make your point.

Exactly what page is that sentence from? I can't find it in the rules.

Page 109 of the BRB. Under FORCE ORGANISATION CHART, first sentence of the second paragraph under the PRIMARY DETACHMENTS sub-section.

 thejughead wrote:
@Rigled2,

Can you prove why the below statement is false? Saying something is "incorrect" with no proof or citations is not really winning an argument.

"Troops selection and Troops are used interchangeably, because they mean the same thing- Troops are scoring."

They aren't used interchangeably. Because they don't mean the same thing.

rigeld2 wrote:

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

Troop selections == units chosen from the army list section of your codex to satisfy one box on the FOC.

Citation is needed or this statement is just an opinion.

I've cited it. Repeatedly. The quote I posted is on page 109.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

The boxes on the chart allow you to make selections from the army list section of your codex.
Troop selections are scoring.
Troop selections == units chosen from the army list section of your codex to satisfy one box on the FOC.

I've spelled all of this out before. You've failed - utterly - to refute it. Instead you make wild assumptions and ignore important words to attempt to make your point.

Exactly what page is that sentence from? I can't find it in the rules.

Page 109. As I've said repeatedly.
Thank you for proving you've not read my posts.

Happyjew wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

The boxes on the chart allow you to make selections from the army list section of your codex.
Troop selections are scoring.
Troop selections == units chosen from the army list section of your codex to satisfy one box on the FOC.

I've spelled all of this out before. You've failed - utterly - to refute it. Instead you make wild assumptions and ignore important words to attempt to make your point.

Exactly what page is that sentence from? I can't find it in the rules.

Page 109 of the BRB. Under FORCE ORGANISATION CHART, first sentence of the second paragraph under the PRIMARY DETACHMENTS sub-section.

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
@Rigled2,

Can you prove why the below statement is false? Saying something is "incorrect" with no proof or citations is not really winning an argument.

"Troops selection and Troops are used interchangeably, because they mean the same thing- Troops are scoring."

They aren't used interchangeably. Because they don't mean the same thing.

rigeld2 wrote:

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

Troop selections == units chosen from the army list section of your codex to satisfy one box on the FOC.

Citation is needed or this statement is just an opinion.

I've cited it. Repeatedly. The quote I posted is on page 109.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

The boxes on the chart allow you to make selections from the army list section of your codex.
Troop selections are scoring.
Troop selections == units chosen from the army list section of your codex to satisfy one box on the FOC.

I've spelled all of this out before. You've failed - utterly - to refute it. Instead you make wild assumptions and ignore important words to attempt to make your point.

Exactly what page is that sentence from? I can't find it in the rules.

Page 109. As I've said repeatedly.
Thank you for proving you've not read my posts.

But this sentence does not offer a definition for a troops selection. It doesn't even mention troop at all! If you could just find a definition for a "troops selection, and how it is NOT a troop, this could help solve some of this ambiguity. I've asked for very simple things.I'll repeat this again-
1. Troops and troops selection is not interchangeable. Find more examples of troops selection.
2. If they are not interchangeable, please find a definition for troops selection using the rules. What is a troops selection and how is it defined in the rules as written?
3. If troops and troops selection are different, then how does a troops selection control an objective- page 123 states that only troops control objectives. To score an objective, you must control it. But how can a troops selection score an objective when only a troop can control it?
4. Find an exemption to troops from formations being scoring. As the rules are written troops are scoring unless there is an exemption as shown on page 123 of the BRB.
5. Find something that contradicts a unit is not a troop in a formation- such as in the Genestealer example above. How is it not a troop? Where is it defined specifically as not being a troop?
6. Find a rule that states troops do not score in a formation.
7. Locate a "troops selection" on the Force Organization Chart.
That's all laid out and crystal clear. The FOC on page 109 doesn't mention troops selection in the boxes, it says "Troops". Your argument relies on ignoring all the evidence provided by the rulebook. As far as we can all admit, troops and troops selection is the same word! And so, if troops and troops selection are scoring, Troops found in dataslates are scoring unless stated differently!

What is the definition of "troop selection"?
We know the definition if "selection".
Since different boxes on the FOC are labeled differently, a troop selection must be a box labeled troop.

I'm ignoring nothing. You're conflating terms that the rulebook doesn't.

rigeld2 wrote:
What is the definition of "troop selection"?
We know the definition if "selection".
Since different boxes on the FOC are labeled differently, a troop selection must be a box labeled troop.

I'm ignoring nothing. You're conflating terms that the rulebook doesn't.

But here-

There are not troops selection present on the chart. Only Troops! We're not here to argue how we think the rules are written, we're here to discuss what the rules actually state. Your argument may have defined a selection, and we know the definition of troop, but what is the definition of the words used together in the rules? It seems like your argument continually ignores this. Find the definition of troops selection within the rules. And then we can go down the list-
1. Troops and troops selection is not interchangeable. Find more examples of troops selection.
2. If they are not interchangeable, please find a definition for troops selection using the rules. What is a troops selection and how is it defined in the rules as written?
3. If troops and troops selection are different, then how does a troops selection control an objective- page 123 states that only troops control objectives. To score an objective, you must control it. But how can a troops selection score an objective when only a troop can control it?
4. Find an exemption to troops from formations being scoring. As the rules are written troops are scoring unless there is an exemption as shown on page 123 of the BRB.
5. Find something that contradicts a unit is not a troop in a formation- such as in the Genestealer example above. How is it not a troop? Where is it defined specifically as not being a troop?
6. Find a rule that states troops do not score in a formation.
7. Locate a "troops selection" on the Force Organization Chart.
These are simple things to find. All that is needed is one rule that specifically states that "Troops in Formations are not scoring units". That's the only sentence that needs to be found. Pg 123 makes no mention whatsoever of formations. Obviously, if there is no exception, they score.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
What is the definition of "troop selection"?
We know the definition if "selection".
Since different boxes on the FOC are labeled differently, a troop selection must be a box labeled troop.

I'm ignoring nothing. You're conflating terms that the rulebook doesn't.

But here-

There are not troops selection present on the chart. Only Troops! We're not here to argue how we think the rules are written, we're here to discuss what the rules actually state. Your argument may have defined a selection, and we know the definition of troop, but what is the definition of the words used together in the rules? It seems like your argument continually ignores this. Find the definition of troops selection within the rules.

Find the definition of the word "the" in the rules.
This is a relevant question. Please answer it.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
What is the definition of "troop selection"?
We know the definition if "selection".
Since different boxes on the FOC are labeled differently, a troop selection must be a box labeled troop.

I'm ignoring nothing. You're conflating terms that the rulebook doesn't.

But here-

There are not troops selection present on the chart. Only Troops! We're not here to argue how we think the rules are written, we're here to discuss what the rules actually state. Your argument may have defined a selection, and we know the definition of troop, but what is the definition of the words used together in the rules? It seems like your argument continually ignores this. Find the definition of troops selection within the rules.

Find the definition of the word "the" in the rules.
This is a relevant question. Please answer it.

I'm afraid it's not. I'm asking for a rules term, not a definition. Troops are defined within the rules. Let's just go ahead and state the obvious- troops selection as a single entity is not defined in the rules. Units are not defined as selections, they're defined as Troops, Elites, etc.

It is relevant.
The phrase "troop selection" is, however, defined.
We know what a selection is - a box on the FOC. I've quoted that rule and you've hopefully found it by now after being told where it is repeatedly.

So what is a troop selection? The answer can only be a troop box on the FOC. Nothing else is a valid interpretation. And pretending it means nothing is simply ludicrous.

rigeld2 wrote:
It is relevant.
The phrase "troop selection" is, however, defined.
We know what a selection is - a box on the FOC. I've quoted that rule and you've hopefully found it by now after being told where it is repeatedly.

So what is a troop selection? The answer can only be a troop box on the FOC. Nothing else is a valid interpretation. And pretending it means nothing is simply ludicrous.

But to just look at the entire context of the paragraph page 123. Troops control objectives, troops have exceptions to scoring. It does not keep using troops selection, obviously troops and troops selection mean the same thing. Troops are scoring units, thus Troops in formations are scoring.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It is relevant.
The phrase "troop selection" is, however, defined.
We know what a selection is - a box on the FOC. I've quoted that rule and you've hopefully found it by now after being told where it is repeatedly.

So what is a troop selection? The answer can only be a troop box on the FOC. Nothing else is a valid interpretation. And pretending it means nothing is simply ludicrous.

But to just look at the entire context of the paragraph page 123. Troops control objectives, troops have exceptions to scoring. It does not keep using troops selection, obviously troops and troops selection mean the same thing. Troops are scoring units, thus Troops in formations are scoring.

It'd be great if you could find a rules based equivalency instead of just making assumptions.
Your interpretation makes an assumption. The actual rules don't.

So we are back to definitions of words are we? A selection can be found in the oxford dictionary. A common meaning is an item chosen, so we are again back to a unit chosen for the FOC.

Is there any rule that supports the gut feeling that people have?

Cool story how someone admitted they were arguing RAI and are now saying that it's RAW.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It is relevant.
The phrase "troop selection" is, however, defined.
We know what a selection is - a box on the FOC. I've quoted that rule and you've hopefully found it by now after being told where it is repeatedly.

So what is a troop selection? The answer can only be a troop box on the FOC. Nothing else is a valid interpretation. And pretending it means nothing is simply ludicrous.

But to just look at the entire context of the paragraph page 123. Troops control objectives, troops have exceptions to scoring. It does not keep using troops selection, obviously troops and troops selection mean the same thing. Troops are scoring units, thus Troops in formations are scoring.

It'd be great if you could find a rules based equivalency instead of just making assumptions.
Your interpretation makes an assumption. The actual rules don't.

The actual rules state that troops are scoring, it is your assumption that a troops selection is not a troop. I've kindly asked for proof that a troops selection is not a troop and you have failed to provide it. You keep insisting that your opinion of what the rules state is correct without any rules based evidence. All I ask for are rules describing what a troops selection is.

The actual rules say that the troops selection from the FOC is scoring. That's been pointed out for 13 pages now.

Can you please stop obfuscating and misrepresenting that fact?

Elites are often troop selections.... is that enough to show you that troops =/= all troop selections?

A troops selection is a unit chosen from the troops section of the army list.
So to be scoring, you must be a unit chosen from the troops part of the army list(unless another rules allows units from other sections of the army list to do so) that takes up a slot on the FOC.

The question remains as it has for 13 pages.... Where is the diagram of the units in the formation section of the FOC that says they are troops selections?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pg 123: Controlling objectives:
You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units....

Pg 123:

Any army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation Chart.
....The presence of any other units within 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it.

I see no internal inconsistancies in saying that it is troops selections that are scoring, that the troops selections control objectives. That the line after uses shorthand doesn't invalidate the rule that states clearly who can score. Context is important in reading comprehension.

Please refute this with a page and paragraph reference if you are able to do so.

liturgies of blood wrote:Troops is a plural, so many troops, as in the selection of the troops or units in the army. So the selection of troops, the array of units, is scoring.

You can select or choose a plurality of items, it's funny how words work. If you disagree can you show that the following is an incorrect sentence. "My selection of seven rings."

Abandon, you see that sentence on page 123? You see how it is talking about a plural of units and says that "all the units(plural) that come from the troops(plural) selection".
It's almost as if the words on the page disagree completely with you.

If selection equals slot as you say it does then the singular means one slot, not one group of units. Perhaps a group of one or more units that take up one slot... doesn't work.

rigeld2 wrote:

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

The boxes on the chart allow you to make selections from the army list section of your codex.
Troop selections are scoring.
Troop selections == units chosen from the army list section of your codex to satisfy one box on the FOC.

I've spelled all of this out before. You've failed - utterly - to refute it. Instead you make wild assumptions and ignore important words to attempt to make your point.

slight correction, you mean 'Troop selections == units chosen from the army list section of your codex through one box on the FOC.'

As I've pointed out many times now and had no argument, this is the only way to purchase units through the codex. Literally every unit purchased from the codex is from the available selections of the FOC. It does not matter if the unit ends up in a formation or primary detachment, they are all from the FOC even if they are no longer on the FOC.

rigeld2 wrote:It is relevant.
The phrase "troop selection" is, however, defined.
We know what a selection is - a box on the FOC. I've quoted that rule and you've hopefully found it by now after being told where it is repeatedly.

So what is a troop selection? The answer can only be a troop box on the FOC. Nothing else is a valid interpretation. And pretending it means nothing is simply ludicrous.

Actually you did not quote a rule that states that. You quoted a rule that says a slot can be used to make a selection. A single line that uses a word does not mean that word is forever defined by that specific use. You select targets for shooting, those are also selections. the act of making that decision is also called a selection. The options from which you have to chose is also accurately described as a selection.

Selection can mean:
-the chosen
-the act of choosing
-A range of options from which one can choose

You have 'selected' the first meaning when it really does not fit as well as further defining it as some kind of game specific term without any solid bases. The last meaning actually fits much better, creates no rules conundrums and does not assume anything.

'all the units from the troops selection of the FOC'

-From-
Where the unit originates is what matters, not what slot it currently takes up or any other such nonsense. All units purchased from the codex are accuratly described as 'from the FOC' as that is the only way to purchase units.

-The troops selection of the FOC-
As from the above we are concerned with the origins of the unit, not the end state. The unit originated as one choice among many - one of a range of troops options from which one can choose from the FOC.

Troops purchased from the codex are scouring because purchasing them from the codex means they are purchased from the FOC.

Your analysis of the word from has no basis in the rules though.
A description you make holds no weight as an argument.

The FOC details the units in your army, if the units that make up the troops selection are not scoring and it is just troops that are scoring by dint of being in the right part of the army list then you are saying that the units that are moved to the troops slot by codex rules from other areas of the army list are not able to score. Either a unit from the troops section of the army list is the only ones that can score or your interpretation is planly false and the ends are the only things that matter.

The fact it doesn't say units from the troops section of the army list or just "troops" puts another spanner in the works for that.

Could you prove that "the troops selection" cannot refer to a pick consisting of multiple units? The only group of units that take up one slot is IG platoons RAW. They still are able to be part of the troops selection so don't worry.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Your analysis of the word from has no basis in the rules though.
A description you make holds no weight as an argument.

The FOC details the units in your army, if the units that make up the troops selection are not scoring and it is just troops that are scoring then you are saying that the units that are moved to the troops slot by codex rules from other areas of the army list are not able to score. Either a unit from the troops section of the army list is the only ones that can score or your interpretation is planely false and the ends are the only things that matter.

Could you prove that "the troops selection" cannot refer to a pick consisting of multiple units? The only group of units that take up one slot is IG platoons RAW. They still are able to be part of the troops selection so don't worry.

Can you show that "troops selection" is exclusive, considering that context says that it is the same as "troops"

Yes I can. It is the only term used to describe the units that are scoring.

Which Troops does context mean, is that the units in my FOC under that heading or the heading in my army list? Seeing as the previous sentence uses the former, a reasonable reading using basic comprehension dictates that context says troop selection.

A term used once and then replaced by "troops" does not give weight to your argument.

It is a lot more solid than no rules supporting your sides tbh. It only was needed once as it defined fully who can score.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Your analysis of the word from has no basis in the rules though.
A description you make holds no weight as an argument.

The FOC details the units in your army, if the units that make up the troops selection are not scoring and it is just troops that are scoring by dint of being in the right part of the army list then you are saying that the units that are moved to the troops slot by codex rules from other areas of the army list are not able to score. Either a unit from the troops section of the army list is the only ones that can score or your interpretation is planly false and the ends are the only things that matter.

The fact it doesn't say units from the troops section of the army list or just "troops" puts another spanner in the works for that.

Could you prove that "the troops selection" cannot refer to a pick consisting of multiple units? The only group of units that take up one slot is IG platoons RAW. They still are able to be part of the troops selection so don't worry.

You're saying when the meaning of a word or term is in dispute a description of possible meanings per the oxford dictionary holds 'no weight as an argument' and only terms and words defined by the 40k rules themselves can be analyzed for purposes of determining meaning... I would have to say this argument leads to them most broken notion of the rules I have ever seen. If words are not specifically named as a mechanic or defined for 40k then use of the dictionary definitions must in fact apply or the whole of the rule book would amount to meaningless babbling.

The FOC does more than detail the units in you army. Also I never said all units from the troops section of the army list are scoring and that is not what the rule says. I said troops units purchased from the FOC are scoring and that where the unit is from matters to the rule not where the unit is. Additionally I stated all units purchased from the codex a purchased from the FOC including those in formations. You have inaccurately approximated what I said and found a problem with your own version of it. Purchasing a unit 'of troops' or a unit 'as troops' means picking a troops slot and selecting the unit in either case. This is the process for buying a troop unit for both a primary detachment as well as for a formation. The only difference being that the formation unit does not 'take up' the slot and you are permitted to use it again to purchase another unit. In either case I have demonstrated the unit is 'from the FOC'.

It is you who are claiming that 'selection' means 'slot' and that rather limits its meaning and therefore its correct uses. I simply carried the plural/singular over for you properly to demonstrate that it is not grammatically correct to allow for more than on slot in that case. Sure a selection can mean a group of choices, a single choice or a group of options. You are trying to prove it means 'unit in slot' though and in that case the plural/singular matters a great deal.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It is relevant.
The phrase "troop selection" is, however, defined.
We know what a selection is - a box on the FOC. I've quoted that rule and you've hopefully found it by now after being told where it is repeatedly.

So what is a troop selection? The answer can only be a troop box on the FOC. Nothing else is a valid interpretation. And pretending it means nothing is simply ludicrous.

But to just look at the entire context of the paragraph page 123. Troops control objectives, troops have exceptions to scoring. It does not keep using troops selection, obviously troops and troops selection mean the same thing. Troops are scoring units, thus Troops in formations are scoring.

It'd be great if you could find a rules based equivalency instead of just making assumptions.
Your interpretation makes an assumption. The actual rules don't.

The actual rules state that troops are scoring, it is your assumption that a troops selection is not a troop.

The underlined is, again, absolutely false and not what the actual rules say. You've been corrected on this a number of times in this thread.
Reported and ignored. We're done here.

. All I ask for are rules describing what a troops selection is.

I've provided that. Multiple times.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
It is a lot more solid than no rules supporting your sides tbh. It only was needed once as it defined fully who can score.

Yes. Only Troops control objectives, and only troops score. Page 123, under controlling objectives-
"You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units, and no models from enemy denial units, within 3" of it."
Strict RAW, Troops control objectives(pg 123-"The presence of other unitswithin 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it."), and to score an objective it must be a scoring unit- thus Troops are scoring. The rules do not state a Troops selection control an objective, but troops. And to control an objective, a unit must be scoring. Thus, Troops are scoring units.

For example,
I have a troop from a formation within 3" an objective, with no denial units anywhere within 3". Only troops can control objectives. A troop is controlling the objective- that part of the rules has been fulfilled. But to control the objective, a unit must be a scoring unit. The unit is already in control of the objective(because it is labeled a "troop"), thus according to page 123 it must be a scoring unit.

This is what I've been trying to explain. The unit has no exception to being a scoring unit- you keep point to page 123's "An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization chart" as an exception, but it is not labeled as any sort of exception, it is merely permissive. Please provide an exclusion for Formation troops to not be scoring. But we all know it can't be done, because there is no exception that exists for Formation troops to not be scoring.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
It is a lot more solid than no rules supporting your sides tbh. It only was needed once as it defined fully who can score.

So other meanings taken from the same words can't possibly be the rule. Even though they are perfectly valid and fall more in line with other rules as they are stated and make more grammatical sense...

Also, nowhere in the book does it state what 'troops selection' means precisely and unless you can find that it is unseemly to claim the rules do so.

Your side also has yet to refute my point that every troops unit purchased from the codex is indeed from the FOC which is the real requirement of the rule.

Additionally no difference(for scoring purposes) has been shown between spawned termigants(scoring) and formation termigants. Rigeld in fact only proved they are identical.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The actual rules say that the troops selection from the FOC is scoring. That's been pointed out for 13 pages now.

Elites are often troop selections.... is that enough to show you that troops =/= all troop selections?

This is not true. Every instance I've seen says Elites are scoring. It never mentions "troops selections" save for one page in the BRB.

TheJugHead,
I know Choas has many HQ choices that state 'unit X is a troop choice' and these units are all elites. This was done so you could field those elites as troops, both for minimal requirements on the force organization and to allow more of these to be fielded then the default number for Elites. This also, by changing which slot they are selected for, allows them to become scoring which is very important if someone wants to field a pure Noise Marine army for example.

 thejughead wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The actual rules say that the troops selection from the FOC is scoring. That's been pointed out for 13 pages now.

Elites are often troop selections.... is that enough to show you that troops =/= all troop selections?

This is not true. Every instance I've seen says Elites are scoring. It never mentions "troops selections" save for one page in the BRB.

Yeah if you ignore CSM, Tyranids, Grey Knights...

Those are the first 3 I felt like checking. So no - your assertion is incorrect.

I've been silent on this thread because, well it is interesting enough without me.

However I do have to ask:
What was made of the sentence stating that formations 'choose' their units from the appropriate entry in the Codex?

JinxDragon wrote:
TheJugHead,
I know Choas has many HQ choices that state 'unit X is a troop choice' and these units are all elites. This was done so you could field those elites as troops, both for minimal requirements on the force organization and to allow more of these to be fielded then the default number for Elites. This also, by changing which slot they are selected for, allows them to become scoring which is very important if someone wants to field a pure Noise Marine army for example.

I stand corrected, but it doesn't deny the fact that any of those choices (Deathwing,Sternguard etc.) that are made scoring cannot score because of the RAW interpretation that it must be a "troops selection".

 thejughead wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
TheJugHead,
I know Choas has many HQ choices that state 'unit X is a troop choice' and these units are all elites. This was done so you could field those elites as troops, both for minimal requirements on the force organization and to allow more of these to be fielded then the default number for Elites. This also, by changing which slot they are selected for, allows them to become scoring which is very important if someone wants to field a pure Noise Marine army for example.

I stand corrected, but it doesn't deny the fact that any of those choices (Deathwing,Sternguard etc.) that are made scoring cannot score because of the RAW interpretation that it must be a "troops selection".

It actually does.
First of all, Deathwing and Sternguard are two different cases. I'll educate you on why you're wrong on both of them, separately.
Deathwing:

Belial makes Deathwing into a Troops choice. So when we're filling out our FOC, we are allowed to make selections from our Army List to fill a box on the FOC. Belial fills the HQ selection, and allows us to fill the Troops selections with Deathwing. Since they're Troop selections, they score.

Sternguard are never Troops and therefore can't be troop selections and can't score. Pedro, however, has a special rule that says they're scoring. There's a conflict - BRB says can't score, Codex says can. This means they can score.

None of what I've said contradicts my position whatsoever.

Sternguard are never Troops and therefore can't be troop selections and can't score. Pedro, however, has a special rule that says they're scoring. There's a conflict - BRB says can't score, Codex says can. This means they can score.

So based on that where does it say that TAC Marines are Troop Selections in SM: Codex?

 thejughead wrote:

Sternguard are never Troops and therefore can't be troop selections and can't score. Pedro, however, has a special rule that says they're scoring. There's a conflict - BRB says can't score, Codex says can. This means they can score.

So based on that where does it say that TAC Marines are Troop Selections in SM: Codex?

They're in the Troop section of the Army List.
So when you look at the rules for the FOC and go to fill a troop box, you make a selection from the Troop section of your Army List.
That is a troop selection - the unit chosen to fill a box on the FOC.

Which is what I've been saying. You're free to continue to ignore that and ask me to restate my argument, but I'll get tired of it eventually.

Great and the Tyranid Dataslate for Leviathan II states that Warrior Brood is a Troop Selection if you take the formation. You continue to ignore the rules of the Dataslate, which is an addendum to the BRB, exactly like a codex..

 thejughead wrote:
Great and the Tyranid Dataslate for Leviathan II states that Warrior Brood is a Troop Selection if you take the formation. You continue to ignore the rules of the Dataslate, which is an addendum to the BRB, exactly like a codex..

Citation needed for the underlined. I do not see "Troop Selection anywhere in the dataslate.

Correction. I do not see Troop Selection anywhere other than the rules for the Hive Commander upgrade for Hive Tyrants.

The dataslate tells me to refer to the Tyranid Codex. It is in the Troop Selection there.

 thejughead wrote:
The dataslate tells me to refer to the Tyranid Codex. It is in the Troop Selection there.

False.
It's listed under the Troop section of the Army List.
To be a Troop selection it must fill a box on the FOC.

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
The dataslate tells me to refer to the Tyranid Codex. It is in the Troop Selection there.

False.
It's listed under the Troop section of the Army List.
To be a Troop selection it must fill a box on the FOC.

That is irrelevant. A troop must merely control an objective to be a scoring unit. Pg 123 again-
"You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units, and no models from enemy denial units, within 3" of it."
Strict RAW, Troops control objectives(pg 123-"The presence of other unitswithin 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it."), and to score an objective it must be a scoring unit- thus Troops are scoring. The rules do not state a Troops selection control an objective, but troops. And to control an objective, a unit must be scoring. Thus, Troops are scoring units whether they come from a formation or not, as long as they control an objective.

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:

Sternguard are never Troops and therefore can't be troop selections and can't score. Pedro, however, has a special rule that says they're scoring. There's a conflict - BRB says can't score, Codex says can. This means they can score.

So based on that where does it say that TAC Marines are Troop Selections in SM: Codex?

They're in the Troop section of the Army List.
So when you look at the rules for the FOC and go to fill a troop box, you make a selection from the Troop section of your Army List.
That is a troop selection - the unit chosen to fill a box on the FOC.

Which is what I've been saying. You're free to continue to ignore that and ask me to restate my argument, but I'll get tired of it eventually.

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
The dataslate tells me to refer to the Tyranid Codex. It is in the Troop Selection there.

False.
It's listed under the Troop section of the Army List.
To be a Troop selection it must fill a box on the FOC.

You keep insisting the must 'fill a box' and have yet to prove it in any way. They must be 'from the troops selection of the FOC'. That does not mean 'fill a box on the FOC' nor does it mean they must 'currently exist on FOC' it only matters that they are from there. Filling a troops selection is not a requirement by that rule, being 'from' the troops selection is.


Also, nowhere in the book does it state what 'troops selection' means precisely and unless you can show that it is a game specific term it is unseemly to claim the rules treat it as such.

Your side also has yet to refute my point that every troops unit purchased from the codex is indeed from the troops selection of the FOC which is the real requirement of the rule.

Additionally no difference(for scoring purposes) has been shown between spawned termigants(scoring) and formation termigants. You in fact only proved they are identical.

Abandon, what the feth does being FROM something mean if it doesn't mean being in that area? Being from the FOC is being from the list of units in your army not in the codex's list of units. I know it's hard when GW used troops as shorthand for both the units in the codex and the units in your army list but context is key and you should read the full of the sections instead of picking out one word and using it as your full argument.

The FOC rules talk about selecting units and you know what you call a group of units? The units selection. There basic english has defined Troops Selection for us.

I don't buy your quantum state theory of possibly being in a troops slot if it could be. Conjuration powers disagree with you and so does the section your misunderstanding.

The difference between spawned gants and formation gants are manifold but the first one is that spawn have permission to score, the don't exist on the foc but count as if they do in a specific area. Formation exist on the Foc in an area called formation detachment which lacks any slots.

Sinful, what does it say in MASSIVE bolded letters in the first line of the paragraph you keep going on about on page 123? Can you admit that you are wilfully ignoring that sentence or will you look at it and conceed that the rules have defined something other than what you're saying?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Abandon, what the feth does being FROM something mean if it doesn't mean being in that area? Being from the FOC is being from the list of units in your army not in the codex's list of units. I know it's hard when GW used troops as shorthand for both the units in the codex and the units in your army list but context is key and you should read the full of the sections instead of picking out one word and using it as your full argument.

The FOC rules talk about selecting units and you know what you call a group of units? The units selection. There basic english has defined Troops Selection for us.

I don't buy your quantum state theory of possibly being in a troops slot if it could be. Conjuration powers disagree with you and so does the section your misunderstanding.

The difference between spawned gants and formation gants are manifold but the first one is that spawn have permission to score, the don't exist on the foc but count as if they do in a specific area. Formation exist on the Foc in an area called formation detachment which lacks any slots.

Sinful, what does it say in MASSIVE bolded letters in the first line of the paragraph you keep going on about on page 123? Can you admit that you are wilfully ignoring that sentence or will you look at it and conceed that the rules have defined something other than what you're saying?

That sentence does nothing to contradict my statement, the statement which I might add you just did not address. How does it contradict my statement? If anything, it's an additional clarification for a subsection of units, if I was to admit that a troops selection was not just another word for troops as the entire paragraph on page 123 implies(and you have repeatedly ignored). I'll repost it again, so that you may address it at your convenience.

Page 123, under controlling objectives-
"You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units, and no models from enemy denial units, within 3" of it."
Strict RAW, Troops control objectives(pg 123-"The presence of other units within 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it."), and to control an objective it must be a scoring unit- thus Troops are scoring. Written in black and white. The rules do not state a Troops selection must be in control of an objective, but troops. And to control an objective, a unit must be scoring. Thus, Troops are scoring units, no matter their source.

For example,
I have a troop from a formation within 3" an objective, with no denial units anywhere within 3". Only troops can control objectives. A troop is controlling the objective- that part of the rules has been fulfilled. But if it controls an objective, it is a scoring unit. The unit is already in control of the objective(because it is labeled a "troop"), thus according to page 123 it must be a scoring unit.

There are not any exceptions to Formation troops controlling objectives, and if it is in control of an objective it is a scoring unit. This could also apply to spawned Termagants for example. Termagants are defined as troops, troops control objectives, you control an objective if a scoring unit is within 3".

Not to mention, I'm still waiting for these points to be addressed-

1. Troops and troops selection is not interchangeable. Find more examples of troops selection.
2. If they are not interchangeable, please find a definition for troops selection using the rules. What is a troops selection and how is it defined in the rules?
3. If troops and troops selection are different, then how does a troops selection control an objective- page 123 states that only troops control objectives. To score an objective, you must control it. But how can a troops selection score an objective when only a troop can control it?
4. Find an exemption to troops from formations being scoring. As the rules are written troops are scoring unless there is an exemption as shown on page 123 of the BRB.
5. Find something that contradicts a unit is not a troop in a formation- such as in the Genestealer example above. How is it not a troop? Where is it defined specifically as not being a troop?
6. Find a rule that states troops do not score in a formation.
7. Locate a "troops selection" on the Force Organization Chart.

If you admit that these are questions that you cannot answer, is not your argument wrong?

Sinful what does the bolded line say? Troops selection? Ring a bell?
"An army's scoring units are normally all the units from the troops selection of the FOC"
Then two lines later it says troops control objectives.
What does context mean to you?
What subsection of units can you possibly mean? Troops are in the Troops selection, you are not getting clarification, you are getting vernacular language that uses troops as the noun when the paragraph is talking about the units in slots in the FOC.

Your statement is obfuscating the facts and you know it. Ignoring the bolded line and what it says ignores the entire context of the paragraph and page 109.

If troops are scoring no matter their source why does the brb not say that? Why are you happy to take in all the other caveats but the bolded definition of who scores is not good enough?

1. and 2. Look at page 109 selection is the go to word for the slots on the FOC. Troops selection and troops are not the same as troops can refer to several things depending on context and troops selection refers to something specific.

3. Learn what context is.
4.I don't have to thats not how permissive ruleseyts work, you need to prove permission and there is none.
5. It is a troop just not a troops selection, again see context.
6. See question 4 and stop asking the same question to bulk out lists.
7.Do you see the chart on page 109? do you see the bolded line that says dark boxes are compulsory selections? Ok here is some magic... the troops that occupy those slots are the troops selection on the FOC.

Questions answered. Now answer mine.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Sinful what does the bolded line say? Troops selection? Ring a bell?
"An army's scoring units are normally all the units from the troops selection of the FOC"
Then two lines later it says troops control objectives.
What does context mean to you?
What subsection of units can you possibly mean? Troops are in the Troops selection, you are not getting clarification, you are getting vernacular language that uses troops as the noun when the paragraph is talking about the units in slots in the FOC.

Page 123, sixth word, "normally" "An army's scoring units are normally all the units from the troops selection of the FOC". What does that context say? It obviously means that ALL scoring units are from this small subset of units in the game, right? Of course not.

Your statement is obfuscating the facts and you know it. Ignoring the bolded line and what it says ignores the entire context of the paragraph and page 109.

Exactly what your argument has been doing? The context obviously states that there are more than one source of scoring units, and the rest of the page tells you what they are- Troops. Troops are the units who control objectives- this is not limited to troops selections, as evidenced by the rest of the paragraph on page 123 your argument constantly ignores the existence of.

If troops are scoring no matter their source why does the brb not say that?

Because it does say that?

1. and 2. Look at page 109 selection is the go to word for the slots on the FOC. Troops selection and troops are not the same as troops can refer to several things depending on context and troops selection refers to something specific.

Where are more examples of troops selection within the rules? This answer does not cite any of those.

3. Learn what context is.

Let's keep this civil please, sarcasm is not needed. This is a question requiring an answer.

4.I don't have to thats not how permissive ruleseyts work, you need to prove permission and there is none.

Are you saying that a Warrior Brood is not scoring because it has not been given explicit permission to score? Because that appears to be what you're saying here.

5. It is a troop just not a troops selection, again see context.

The context says that troops are scoring.

6. See question 4 and stop asking the same question to bulk out lists.

This is not the same question as four- I'm asking for proof that a Warrior brood from a formation is not a troop.

7.Do you see the chart on page 109? do you see the bolded line that says dark boxes are compulsory selections? Ok here is some magic... the troops that occupy those slots are the troops selection on the FOC.

I see no rules explicitly stating that the boxes are troops selections. I see boxes labeled troops, but no boxes labeled selections. We are arguing strict RAW correct? Strict RAW the boxes are not labeled troops selections therefore they are not troops selections.

Questions answered. Now answer mine.

Perhaps you could try again?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Abandon, what the feth does being FROM something mean if it doesn't mean being in that area?

Are you seriously asking the difference between being from something and being in something?

 liturgies of blood wrote:

Being from the FOC is being from the list of units in your army not in the codex's list of units. I know it's hard when GW used troops as shorthand for both the units in the codex and the units in your army list but context is key and you should read the full of the sections instead of picking out one word and using it as your full argument.

Your argument hinges on the word 'selection' having a specific 40k meaning that you've already admitted is not proven so hold the one word argument lecture please.
You do know that formation units are selected on the FOC right? That's how you purchase them for your army. Do you think they magically appear in your army list? No, they are selected from the FOC just like every other unit you select from the codex and if you know the meaning of the word from you know that satisfies that qualification. The fact that they do not use up a selection(take up a slot) does not change where they are from.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

The FOC rules talk about selecting units and you know what you call a group of units? The units selection. There basic english has defined Troops Selection for us.

Your way out in left field if you think that because they tell you to select units on the FOC and later refers to troops selection of the FOC that it must be talking about the ones selected as opposed to the selection from which you could choose. It really does not eliminate that as a possible correct meaning so not it has not been defined except by your narrow view.

selection
-A number of carefully chosen things
-A range of things from which a choice may be made

 liturgies of blood wrote:

I don't buy your quantum state theory of possibly being in a troops slot if it could be. Conjuration powers disagree with you and so does the section your misunderstanding.

quantum state lol. Nope. Just pointing out where units in your army come from... they're not just born there, they get there from the FOC. Its that whole selecting units for you army thing that happens for formation and primary units alike from the FOC... kinda defines those units as 'from the FOC'. It's not a quantum stated, just a blanket coverage of anything you purchase from the codex.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

The difference between spawned gants and formation gants are manifold but the first one is that spawn have permission to score, the don't exist on the foc but count as if they do in a specific area. Formation exist on the Foc in an area called formation detachment which lacks any slots.

(emphasis mine) citation required

Abandon and sinful I amn't playing this game anymore. You have yet to show any rules and are filibustering rather than arguing.

Pot / Kettle anyone?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Abandon and sinful I amn't playing this game anymore. You have yet to show any rules and are filibustering rather than arguing.

I believe it's more you can't prove your argument with rules, but if you feel you no longer wish to argue, I understand. I'm glad we all agree now that troops are scoring.

So here are the rules in dispute from the rulebook.(I believe these are exact quotes but I don't have my rulebook on me atm so correct me if they're wrong.)

pg 123-
1: "An army's scoring units are normally all the units from the troops selection from the FOC."
2: "The presence of other units within 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it."

Sentence 1 tells us where scoring units 'normally' come from. The Troops selection of the FOC.

Oh so why do they normally come from there?

Well Sentence 2 tells us that only Troops can control objectives.

Ah so since only Troops can control objectives, that is why sentence 1 is true... because before dataslates existed there was only 1 other source of Troops and that was allies. So stating that 'normally' only those 6 boxes on the FOC represent the scoring units of an army makes sense because it was true and anyone reading the rules for the first time would have an easier time visualizing putting their units into boxes than in a list form.

Now we have dataslates. Those have units too though they don't have pretty boxes for them. They do however list units as 'Troops' which means we have even more sources of scoring units according to sentence 2 above. Does this contradict sentence 1?... No because sentence one does not give nor deny permission of anything. It is just clarifying where you'd usually find scoring units for your army. So arguing over whether or not Troops in a formation are 'Troops selection from the FOC' or not is irrelevant.

Yes my argument hinges on the word 'normally'. If you are following the rules to the letter (which I believe is what RAW means) then the first sentence has no bearing on playing the game because the word 'normally' makes the entire statement meaningless. I don't know why the writers wrote it nor does it matter for a RAW discussion.

For what it is worth I agree that scoring units are those purchased to fill the "troops" choices boxes in the army list FoC.

Where they come from in the Codex is irrelevant as evidenced by those units that can be "troops choices" with HQ unlocks. For example Purifiers don't become "troops" in terms of where they are in the Codex as such but rather become "troops choices", i.e. they can be bought to fill those slots in the FoC.

Thus units from a formation, regardless of the area they are detailed in the Codex can only be scoring units if they are purchased as a Troops choice which is never the case unless it is specifically mentioned that they are scoring because the formation exists outside the FoC

The term "normally" is only used in the rules for scoring units to cover those times when units from other FoC slots become scoring such as "Big Guns Never Tire" making HS scoring or Pedro Kantor and the Sternguards.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
For what it is worth I agree that scoring units are those purchased to fill the "troops" choices boxes in the army list FoC.

Where they come from in the Codex is irrelevant as evidenced by those units that can be "troops choices" with HQ unlocks. For example Purifiers don't become "troops" in terms of where they are in the Codex as such but rather become "troops choices", i.e. they can be bought to fill those slots in the FoC.

Thus units from a formation, regardless of the area they are detailed in the Codex can only be scoring units if they are purchased as a Troops choice which is never the case unless it is specifically mentioned that they are scoring because the formation exists outside the FoC

The term "usually" is only used in the rules for scoring units to cover those times when units from other FoC slots become scoring such as "Big Guns Never Tire" making HS scoring or Pedro Kantor and the Sternguards.

Your in essence arguing that special rules can never break basic rules ?

Fragile wrote:
Pot / Kettle anyone?

One said has quoted rules, repeatedly.
One side has incorrectly cited rules and refuses to accept the fact that they've quoted them incorrectly - or refuses to accept that the incorrect quotes are extremely relevant.

Not pot/kettle. One side attempting to discuss honestly and being met with mocking.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
For what it is worth I agree that scoring units are those purchased to fill the "troops" choices boxes in the army list FoC.

Where they come from in the Codex is irrelevant as evidenced by those units that can be "troops choices" with HQ unlocks. For example Purifiers don't become "troops" in terms of where they are in the Codex as such but rather become "troops choices", i.e. they can be bought to fill those slots in the FoC.

Thus units from a formation, regardless of the area they are detailed in the Codex can only be scoring units if they are purchased as a Troops choice which is never the case unless it is specifically mentioned that they are scoring because the formation exists outside the FoC

The term "normally" is only used in the rules for scoring units to cover those times when units from other FoC slots become scoring such as "Big Guns Never Tire" making HS scoring or Pedro Kantor and the Sternguards.

Do you have any citations for that last sentence, because any troop being able to control an objective disagrees with you(pg 123).

"An army’s scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart – the main exceptions are in the Big Guns Never Tire mission and the The Scouring mission."

I don't see where "any troop" is used on Page 123?

Uptopdownunder wrote:
"An army’s scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart – the main exceptions are in the Big Guns Never Tire mission and the The Scouring mission."

The main exceptions? As in, there are others, but here are two you will commonly encounter?

Uptopdownunder wrote:
"An army’s scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart – the main exceptions are in the Big Guns Never Tire mission and the The Scouring mission."

This is all true. But this sentence does not give nor deny permission for Troops outside or inside the Force Organisation Chart from scoring. You have to read further to find permission.

2 sentences later... "The presence of other units within 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it."

Ah, there's definitive permission. No ambiguous terms such as 'normally'.

"but only troops can control it" is obviously in the context that normally it is the troops selections that are the scoring units, or are you suggesting that Heavy Support units in Big Guns never tire are not able to control objectives and neither can Crimson Fist Sternguard with Pedro?


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 Sinful Hero wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
"An army’s scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart – the main exceptions are in the Big Guns Never Tire mission and the The Scouring mission."

The main exceptions? As in, there are others, but here are two you will commonly encounter?

There are others and they too like BGNT will have a specific rule stating that they are scoring.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
"but only troops can control it" is obviously in the context that normally it is the troops selections that are the scoring units

That may be the RAI but this is a RAW discussion. Perhaps the writers did not think there would be Troops that didn't have a pretty box in the FOC and so they didn't bother clarifying? Either way it doesn't matter because RAW is RAW. The rules for Big Guns clearly state that Heavy Support choices become scoring in the rules for Big Guns. These rules override the rule on pg 123. So no I am not suggested that Heavy Support units in Big Guns never tire are not able to control objectives because the rules say they do.

Context isn't removed from RAW, you only do that when you don't have reading comprehension.

Sure but the RAW is that an army's scoring units are the ones that come from the troops selection in the FoC

I don't see how a sentence sometime later using the word "troops" in the context of being those units from the Troops selection in the FoC changes that to be units from the troops listing in the Codex.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Context isn't removed from RAW, you only do that when you don't have reading comprehension.

Well then, in context, when the BRB was written the only place troops could exist was as a 'troops selection from the FOC'. Had they known there would be more sources of Troops later on then they would have mentioned them or clarified in the rules for those Troops that they did not score. But they didn't. This is because they didn't have to because the first sentence "An army's scoring units are normally all the units from the troops selection from the FOC." was intentionally ambiguous. Therefore it was not meant to be a definitive permission but rather a general statement that did not hold any weight in the rules. But now we're arguing RAI again because that is the only way to discuss a sentence like this thanks to their use of the word 'normally'. So for a RAW discussion we have to ignore this sentence entirely, otherwise we're going to go around in circles speculating what the writers intended.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
"but only troops can control it" is obviously in the context that normally it is the troops selections that are the scoring units, or are you suggesting that Heavy Support units in Big Guns never tire are not able to control objectives and neither can Crimson Fist Sternguard with Pedro?

Never said that- you can control an objective by having a scoring unit within 3"(top of page 123).

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 Sinful Hero wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
"An army’s scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart – the main exceptions are in the Big Guns Never Tire mission and the The Scouring mission."

The main exceptions? As in, there are others, but here are two you will commonly encounter?

There are others and they too like BGNT will have a specific rule stating that they are scoring.

If they aren't troops you mean. Troops have exceptions to not be scoring(listed on pg 123), other types of units will have exceptions to be scoring(Big Guns Never Tire).

You want to have a RAW discussion about a rule but ignore the sentence that is the actual rule ?

Seriously?

"normally" simply means that is the usual case, but in some instances there are exceptions brought about by special rules.

The use of the word "troops", which is used through out the rulebook in many different contexts, in a later sentence provides no basis for overruling the "Scoring units come from the Troop selections of the FoC"

Uptopdownunder wrote:
You want to have a RAW discussion about a rule but ignore the sentence that is the actual rule ?

Seriously?

"normally" simply means that is the usual case, but in some instances there are exceptions brought about by special rules.

The use of the word "troops", which is used through out the rulebook in many different contexts, in a later sentence provides no basis for overruling the "Scoring units come from the Troop selections of the FoC"

Strict RAW, does the rulebook on page 123 state that any troop can control an objective, or only the troops selection? No intentions(that's RAI), what does the book say?

 Sinful Hero wrote:

If they aren't troops you mean. Troops have exceptions to not be scoring(listed on pg 123), other types of units will have exceptions to be scoring(Big Guns Never Tire).

Troops being those units that come from the Troops selection of the FoC.

Uptopdownunder wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

If they aren't troops you mean. Troops have exceptions to not be scoring(listed on pg 123), other types of units will have exceptions to be scoring(Big Guns Never Tire).

Troops being those units that come from the Troops selection of the FoC.

See above.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
You want to have a RAW discussion about a rule but ignore the sentence that is the actual rule ?

Seriously?

"normally" simply means that is the usual case, but in some instances there are exceptions brought about by special rules.

The use of the word "troops", which is used through out the rulebook in many different contexts, in a later sentence provides no basis for overruling the "Scoring units come from the Troop selections of the FoC"

It is not a rule, but a general statement clarifying the rules. If you were to remove that sentence from the BRB then you could play the game exactly the same. It doesn't give nor deny permission for anything.

Uptopdownunder wrote:

"normally" simply means that is the usual case, but in some instances there are exceptions brought about by special rules.

You are absolutely correct. That was and still is normally how you get scoring units.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
For what it is worth I agree that scoring units are those purchased to fill the "troops" choices boxes in the army list FoC.

Thus units from a formation, regardless of the area they are detailed in the Codex can only be scoring units if they are purchased as a Troops choice which is never the case unless it is specifically mentioned that they are scoring because the formation exists outside the FoC

This not correct. All detachments are within the FOC, including special detachments(Formations). The dataslate also specifies that we can refer to the codex for any relevant information regarding the unit, this includes its Category and all the rules that come with it.

Zimko wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Context isn't removed from RAW, you only do that when you don't have reading comprehension.

Well then, in context, when the BRB was written the only place troops could exist was as a 'troops selection from the FOC'. Had they known there would be more sources of Troops later on then they would have mentioned them or clarified in the rules for those Troops that they did not score. But they didn't. This is because they didn't have to because the first sentence "An army's scoring units are normally all the units from the troops selection from the FOC." was intentionally ambiguous. Therefore it was not meant to be a definitive permission but rather a general statement that did not hold any weight in the rules. But now we're arguing RAI again because that is the only way to discuss a sentence like this thanks to their use of the word 'normally'. So for a RAW discussion we have to ignore this sentence entirely, otherwise we're going to go around in circles speculating what the writers intended.

No, context is the meaning one can derive from the text to varying degrees. You have decided to talk in a much greater abstraction than the context of the piece, you have decided to talk about the strategic decisions GW's design team have taken in delivering new army choices, that is beyond the scope of RAW because you're talking about what was intended. What myself and others have talked about is the context within that paragraph. The bit that uses a specific qualifier on troops before returning to a vernacular noun.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Strict RAW, does the rulebook on page 123 state that any troop can control an objective, or only the troops selection? No intentions(that's RAI), what does the book say?

No it does not, because the meaning of troops has been previously defined as being those units from the Troops selection of the FoC.

 thejughead wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
For what it is worth I agree that scoring units are those purchased to fill the "troops" choices boxes in the army list FoC.

Thus units from a formation, regardless of the area they are detailed in the Codex can only be scoring units if they are purchased as a Troops choice which is never the case unless it is specifically mentioned that they are scoring because the formation exists outside the FoC

This not correct. All detachments are within the FOC, including special detachments(Formations). The dataslate also specifies that we can refer to the codex for any relevant information regarding the unit, this includes its Category and all the rules that come with it.

That is only half correct.

While the formation does exist within the FOC, there are no rules associated with the Categories in the army lists in and of themselves.

Uptopdownunder wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Strict RAW, does the rulebook on page 123 state that any troop can control an objective, or only the troops selection? No intentions(that's RAI), what does the book say?

No it does not, because the meaning of troops has been previously defined as being those units from the Troops selection of the FoC.

That's what you think the rules intended, but not what they state. I repeat again, what does the rulebook state in black and white?

Zimko wrote:

It is not a rule, but a general statement clarifying the rules. If you were to remove that sentence from the BRB then you could play the game exactly the same. It doesn't give nor deny permission for anything.

No, It's a standard format that the crux of a rule is the bit written in bold, all else is supporting information that needs to be read in the context of the bolded statement.

It's about the only thing that is consistent through out the book.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

Zimko wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Context isn't removed from RAW, you only do that when you don't have reading comprehension.

Well then, in context, when the BRB was written the only place troops could exist was as a 'troops selection from the FOC'. Had they known there would be more sources of Troops later on then they would have mentioned them or clarified in the rules for those Troops that they did not score. But they didn't. This is because they didn't have to because the first sentence "An army's scoring units are normally all the units from the troops selection from the FOC." was intentionally ambiguous. Therefore it was not meant to be a definitive permission but rather a general statement that did not hold any weight in the rules. But now we're arguing RAI again because that is the only way to discuss a sentence like this thanks to their use of the word 'normally'. So for a RAW discussion we have to ignore this sentence entirely, otherwise we're going to go around in circles speculating what the writers intended.

No, context is the meaning one can derive from the text to varying degrees. You have decided to talk in a much greater abstraction than the context of the piece, you have decided to talk about the strategic decisions GW's design team have taken in delivering new army choices, that is beyond the scope of RAW because you're talking about what was intended. What myself and others have talked about is the context within that paragraph. The bit that uses a specific qualifier on troops before returning to a vernacular noun.

And that specific qualifier is no longer relevant because now you can get Troops outside of the 'troops selection from the FOC' where as before you could not. Either way, the sentence tells you how you usually get scoring units. It then states that Troops can hold objectives. How do you normally get troops? From the troops selection of the FOC. Is that the only way to get troops? It was but not anymore. Does this mean that only troops from the troops selection of the FOC can score? No because the first sentence was ambiguous and not a definitive rule.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Strict RAW, does the rulebook on page 123 state that any troop can control an objective, or only the troops selection? No intentions(that's RAI), what does the book say?

No it does not, because the meaning of troops has been previously defined as being those units from the Troops selection of the FoC.

That's what you think the rules intended, but not what they state. I repeat again, what does the rulebook state in black and white?

In emboldened black and white it states that Scoring units come from the Troops selections of the FoC.

Uptopdownunder wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Strict RAW, does the rulebook on page 123 state that any troop can control an objective, or only the troops selection? No intentions(that's RAI), what does the book say?

No it does not, because the meaning of troops has been previously defined as being those units from the Troops selection of the FoC.

That's what you think the rules intended, but not what they state. I repeat again, what does the rulebook state in black and white?

In emboldened black and white it states that Scoring units come from the Troops selections of the FoC.

And after that, does it specify that troops selection controls objectives?

Uptopdownunder wrote:

Zimko wrote:

It is not a rule, but a general statement clarifying the rules. If you were to remove that sentence from the BRB then you could play the game exactly the same. It doesn't give nor deny permission for anything.

No, It's a standard format that the crux of a rule is the bit written in bold, all else is supporting information that needs to be read in the context of the bolded statement.

It's about the only thing that is consistent through out the book.

If I were skimming the rules then that sentence would give me enough information to play a standard game of 40k. That is why it is bolded. It is ambiguous because there are many other places you can get scoring units but the Troops in the FOC are always scoring (for the most part). The sentence does not clarify what other units can be scoring nor does it deny any units from scoring. It is ambiguous and therefore can not be used as a rule for a RAW discussion.

Zimko wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

Zimko wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Context isn't removed from RAW, you only do that when you don't have reading comprehension.

Well then, in context, when the BRB was written the only place troops could exist was as a 'troops selection from the FOC'. Had they known there would be more sources of Troops later on then they would have mentioned them or clarified in the rules for those Troops that they did not score. But they didn't. This is because they didn't have to because the first sentence "An army's scoring units are normally all the units from the troops selection from the FOC." was intentionally ambiguous. Therefore it was not meant to be a definitive permission but rather a general statement that did not hold any weight in the rules. But now we're arguing RAI again because that is the only way to discuss a sentence like this thanks to their use of the word 'normally'. So for a RAW discussion we have to ignore this sentence entirely, otherwise we're going to go around in circles speculating what the writers intended.

No, context is the meaning one can derive from the text to varying degrees. You have decided to talk in a much greater abstraction than the context of the piece, you have decided to talk about the strategic decisions GW's design team have taken in delivering new army choices, that is beyond the scope of RAW because you're talking about what was intended. What myself and others have talked about is the context within that paragraph. The bit that uses a specific qualifier on troops before returning to a vernacular noun.

And that specific qualifier is no longer relevant because now you can get Troops outside of the 'troops selection from the FOC' where as before you could not. Either way, the sentence tells you how you usually get scoring units. It then states that Troops can hold objectives. How do you normally get troops? From the troops selection of the FOC. Is that the only way to get troops? It was but not anymore. Does this mean that only troops from the troops selection of the FOC can score? No because the first sentence was ambiguous and not a definitive rule.

You could always get troops outside the FOC. Tervigons, the portalglyph. So you are wrong on that.
The bolded sentence was ambiguous? Can you be be more wrong? The bolded sentences on that page are the rules spelled out clearly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zimko wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:

Zimko wrote:

It is not a rule, but a general statement clarifying the rules. If you were to remove that sentence from the BRB then you could play the game exactly the same. It doesn't give nor deny permission for anything.

No, It's a standard format that the crux of a rule is the bit written in bold, all else is supporting information that needs to be read in the context of the bolded statement.

It's about the only thing that is consistent through out the book.

If I were skimming the rules then that sentence would give me enough information to play a standard game of 40k. That is why it is bolded. It is ambiguous because there are many other places you can get scoring units but the Troops in the FOC are always scoring (for the most part). The sentence does not clarify what other units can be scoring nor does it deny any units from scoring. It is ambiguous and therefore can not be used as a rule for a RAW discussion.

Permissive ruleset. That sentence doesn't have to deny all other troops from scoring, it just gives permission for specific units to score. It denies any unit that doesn't fulfil that criteria from scoring. You are now making assertions that have no basis in fact due to how the rulebook was written.

 liturgies of blood wrote:


You could always get troops outside the FOC. Tervigons, the portalglyph. So you are wrong on that.
The bolded sentence was ambiguous? Can you be be more wrong? The bolded sentences on that page are the rules spelled out clearly.


Permissive ruleset. That sentence doesn't have to deny all other troops from scoring, it just gives permission for specific units to score. It denies any unit that doesn't fulfill that criteria from scoring. You are now making assertions that have no basis in fact due to how the rulebook was written.

Yes, you could always get troops outside the FOC... but since they are troops and that is the only qualifier for scoring then they are scoring.

That sentence doesn't give permission for anything. It tells you what the normal circumstances are for scoring units are but it does not define scoring units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It is in bold because the normal circumstances were almost always correct and that sentence is all one would need for playing a standard game.

Later in the paragraph it says that troops hold objectives. This is most certainly referring to the troops mentioned earlier as the 'troops from the FOC' but it does not limit them to those troops. This gives permission for 'troops' to score including but not limited to the troops referenced earlier in the paragraph. If it meant to limit itself to ONLY those troops mentioned earlier then it would have said so.

It actually does define scoring units.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
It actually does define scoring units.

Do the rules explicitly state that only a troops selection can control an objective? Straight RAW, what is written in black and white?

"Normally hockey players are white males but there are a few female players. Males play in the NHL."

Does this mean that a non-white male can't be a hockey player? No because non-white males are males and can therefore play hockey.

It is the same logic used in the BRB:

- Normally troops from the FOC score but sometimes Heavy Support units can score. Troops hold objectives.

Does this mean that Troops not in the FOC can not score? No, they're still troops.

Zimko wrote:
"Normally hockey players are white males but there are a few female players. Males play in the NHL."

Does this mean that a non-white male can't be a hockey players? No because non-white males are males and can therefore play hockey.

It is the same logic used in the BRB:

- Normally troops from the FOC score but sometimes Heavy Support units can score. Troops hold objectives.

Does this mean that Troops not in the FOC can not score? No, they're still troops.

Poor comparison.
In a permissive rule set you have rules that tell you what's allowed. We have a rule telling us that normally troop selections are allowed to score.
To get something that isn't a troop selection to score, you need a rule telling you that. To get something that is a troop selection to not score, you need a rule telling you that.

rigeld2 wrote:

Zimko wrote:
"Normally hockey players are white males but there are a few female players. Males play in the NHL."

Does this mean that a non-white male can't be a hockey players? No because non-white males are males and can therefore play hockey.

It is the same logic used in the BRB:

- Normally troops from the FOC score but sometimes Heavy Support units can score. Troops hold objectives.

Does this mean that Troops not in the FOC can not score? No, they're still troops.

Poor comparison.
In a permissive rule set you have rules that tell you what's allowed. We have a rule telling us that normally troop selections are allowed to score.
To get something that isn't a troop selection to score, you need a rule telling you that. To get something that is a troop selection to not score, you need a rule telling you that.

You then have a rule that tells you troops control objectives. This is permission for something that isn't a troop selection to score. We now have 2 sentences granting permission for things to score but neither is denying or overriding the other. So anything that is not a troops selection or a troops can not score unless a rule tells you otherwise.

It is almost as if those two sentences are in the same paragraph and have some shared meaning due to the positioning of the words in proximity to each other.....

 liturgies of blood wrote:
It is almost as if those two sentences are in the same paragraph and have some shared meaning due to the positioning of the words in proximity to each other.....

Well if we make this assumption that they were referring to ONLY the troops previously mentioned and not all troops then sure, RAW you are correct. I think it is unclear (thus 15 pages of this). We can't discuss RAW anymore without a shared consensus on what is written in English. That is probably why RAI is referred to so much during a RAW discussion because the same paragraph can be interpreted in multiple ways without breaking any rules in English. So we must refer to what the writers intended to say. But since that means we are no longer talking strictly RAW then that leads to multiple interpretations of what is RAW, non of which are necessarily incorrect.

So at this point I'm just going to wait for an FAQ and discuss with my opponent what to do before a game.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
It is almost as if those two sentences are in the same paragraph and have some shared meaning due to the positioning of the words in proximity to each other.....

Like normally? Still waiting on that answer. Not asking about scoring, merely asking if page 123 states that troops control objectives.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
It is almost as if those two sentences are in the same paragraph and have some shared meaning due to the positioning of the words in proximity to each other.....

Like normally? Still waiting on that answer. Not asking about scoring, merely asking if page 123 states that troops control objectives.

I assume you are referring to the sentence "The presence of other units within 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it." And assuming that the phrase 'but only troops can control it' means that all troops can control it, however, that is not what that part of the sentence says. That sentence is pointing out that nothing that isn't a troop can control an objective (unless other rules override this), it is NOT saying that ALL troops can control an objective.

In order to find out what can hold an objective you have to look earlier on the page... "You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units (and no models from enemy denial units, within 3" of it." Which leads to the question, what is a scoring unit... fortunately the answer to that is also on that page "An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization chart" It then proceeds to spell out specific exceptions justifying the use of the word 'normally' that so many of you are hanging your arguments of.

So, troops selection of the FOC... that is not 'troops section of the codex'... if any troops in a codex were automatically scoring, they wouldn't have to spell out all the above rules in such detail. They could just say 'troops are scoring' and be done with it. Since it never says that, there must be a reason why not, and that reason is made pretty clear above.


RAI, i think you should be able to score with troops in a formation... but strict RAW, if there is no FOC to make selections from in a Formation, then it doesn't matter what type of units they are because they are not "troop selections from the FOC", thus they are NOT scoring units, thus they cannot claim objectives.

if there is no FOC to make selections from in a Formation, then it doesn't matter what type of units they are because they are not "troop selections from the FOC", thus they are NOT scoring units, thus they cannot claim objectives.

We are told by the dataslate that Formations are special detachments. A detachment is part of the FOC.

 thejughead wrote:

if there is no FOC to make selections from in a Formation, then it doesn't matter what type of units they are because they are not "troop selections from the FOC", thus they are NOT scoring units, thus they cannot claim objectives.

We are told by the dataslate that Formations are special detachments. A detachment is part of the FOC.

But does not have any selections/choices.

chanceafs wrote:

 thejughead wrote:

if there is no FOC to make selections from in a Formation, then it doesn't matter what type of units they are because they are not "troop selections from the FOC", thus they are NOT scoring units, thus they cannot claim objectives.

We are told by the dataslate that Formations are special detachments. A detachment is part of the FOC.

But does not have any selections/choices.

We are also told to refer to the codex of the Faction. Whether or not you believe that Troop Selection = Troop, once you are told to refer to the codex the units are both the same regardless of who (player or dataslate) made the choice. They end up in the same source material.

 thejughead wrote:

chanceafs wrote:

 thejughead wrote:

if there is no FOC to make selections from in a Formation, then it doesn't matter what type of units they are because they are not "troop selections from the FOC", thus they are NOT scoring units, thus they cannot claim objectives.

We are told by the dataslate that Formations are special detachments. A detachment is part of the FOC.

But does not have any selections/choices.

We are also told to refer to the codex of the Faction. Whether or not you believe that Troop Selection = Troop, once you are told to refer to the codex the units are both the same regardless of who (player or dataslate) made the choice. They end up in the same source material.

The underlined is incorrect. This assertion has been made and proven incorrect before.

We're back at page 1 or 2. It's probably time for a lock.

The underlined is incorrect. This assertion has been made and proven incorrect before.

That is your assertion and not fact at all.

chanceafs wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
It is almost as if those two sentences are in the same paragraph and have some shared meaning due to the positioning of the words in proximity to each other.....

Like normally? Still waiting on that answer. Not asking about scoring, merely asking if page 123 states that troops control objectives.

I assume you are referring to the sentence "The presence of other units within 3" of an objective may deny an objective to the enemy, but only troops can control it." And assuming that the phrase 'but only troops can control it' means that all troops can control it, however, that is not what that part of the sentence says. That sentence is pointing out that nothing that isn't a troop can control an objective (unless other rules override this), it is NOT saying that ALL troops can control an objective.

Actually, strict RAW the sentence states, "but only troops can control it", expressly states troops can control objectives. Any other definition is personal opinion. You can add in the rest of the sentence, but it doesn't change anything at all.

In order to find out what can hold an objective you have to look earlier on the page... "You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units (and no models from enemy denial units, within 3" of it." Which leads to the question, what is a scoring unit... fortunately the answer to that is also on that page "An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organization chart" It then proceeds to spell out specific exceptions justifying the use of the word 'normally' that so many of you are hanging your arguments of.

Strict RAW, the sentence leads to nothing. We have already established that troops can control the objective, but we are left with troops can control an objective, but to control an objective you need a scoring unit within 3". Logic would dictate that since troops(unspecified) can control objectives, we could establish that troops are scoring indirectly.

The first sentence of that paragraph is meaningless because of the inclusion of normally, and the fact that selection is not specifically defined in the rules(as a textbook definition it could be applied to whatever agenda you want, the same as normally). The sentence neither hinders nor helps my argument, strictly RAW(because of the vague language).

I will be more than happy to argue anyone with context if they prefer(which we would need to specify either applying the reasoning of the book when it was written, or what the context is currently and how either would apply to formations because there would be a significant difference).

So, troops selection of the FOC... that is not 'troops section of the codex'... if any troops in a codex were automatically scoring, they wouldn't have to spell out all the above rules in such detail. They could just say 'troops are scoring' and be done with it. Since it never says that, there must be a reason why not, and that reason is made pretty clear above.

You're trying to imply why they didn't just say "All troops are scoring", which is a RAI argument. RAW, we deal with the hand we are dealt.

RAI, i think you should be able to score with troops in a formation... but strict RAW, if there is no FOC to make selections from in a Formation, then it doesn't matter what type of units they are because they are not "troop selections from the FOC", thus they are NOT scoring units, thus they cannot claim objectives.

RAI, we agree. RAW, they can claim objectives, and the definition of claiming an objective is to have a scoring unit within 3".

 thejughead wrote:

The underlined is incorrect. This assertion has been made and proven incorrect before.

That is your assertion and not fact at all.

Wait - so you've found rules saying that?
Or... Not?
You haven't quoted actual rules saying that.

Rigeld2,

I suggest you go back and read my posts. I have stated rules. You continue to ignore the quotes and dataslates rules for that matter.

Abandon wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Abandon, what the feth does being FROM something mean if it doesn't mean being in that area?

Are you seriously asking the difference between being from something and being in something?

liturgies of blood wrote:Abandon and sinful I amn't playing this game anymore. You have yet to show any rules and are filibustering rather than arguing.

I'm not sure what game you believe is being played. The rules in question have been quoted many times and I have answered every question and argument you have had except perhaps the above which I was not sure was meant seriously. I'll rehash one argument I've made that supports my point of view and it may help answer that question if you were indeed wondering.

Why do so many seem to read 'currently in the troops selection of the FOC' when it distinctly says 'from the troops selection of the FOC'? No idea what I'm talking about? Well lets say I want to buy a unit of genestealers for a formation.

I check the dataslate for how to purchase this unit and it tells me to purchase it as normal.
I check the nids codex for how to purchase it and it tells me to follow the guidelines in the BRB
I check the BRB and it tells me to use the FOC troops slots to purchase the unit...

Where did I get the unit from? From the FOC. Specifically from the troops selection of the FOC
'But, but, but...' you say 'it's not [i]in a slot on the FOC, it can't be from the FOC'[/i]

I assure you it can and is from the troops selection of the FOC, as surly as the groceries in my refrigerator are from the grocery selection of the store even though they are not in the store. You see you don't need to be in a place to be from it. It refers to where you originate, not where you currently are.

There is no requirement for the unit to be on the troops selection of FOC, only that it is from there.
-I selected those genestealers from a troops slot(or selection if you prefer) of the FOC. That is where they are from and no non-slot occupying state will change that.
-And before you say it again, no that does not conflict in any way with buying non-troops units as troops were that is possible. Purchasing a unit as troops means you use a troop slot to do so meaning they are from... the troops selection of the FOC.

How is it then that the Genestealers formation has no FoC chart and doesn't conform to any FoC chart ?

The category of a unit listing in the Codex isn't the FoC.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
How is it then that the Genestealers formation has no FoC chart and doesn't conform to any FoC chart ?

The category of a unit listing in the Codex isn't the FoC.

Why would it matter? As I rather pointedly pointed out, you don't need to be in the FOC to be from the FOC.

"all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart" (emphasis mine)
Genestealers can only be purchased from the troops selection of the FOC. There is no other way to get them so there is no denying where they 'come from'.

How can you be purchased from something that doesn't exist ?

It has to be from the troops selection of the FoC not the troops category of the Codex.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
How can you be purchased from something that doesn't exist ?

It has to be from the troops selection of the FoC not the troops category of the Codex.

How do you purchase a unit for a formation?
-The same way you purchase a unit for you primary detachment. With the FOC slots.

But formations don't have any FOC slots.
-Correct. They have no slots nor do they require any because they don't take up slots.

So what slots do you use to purchase them?
-Looks like you have to use your primary slots.

If you have a better answer as to what slots formation units are selected from(come from) please let me know. As far as I can tell they must be purchased using your regular slots specifically for a formation whose units do not use up those slots. I see no other way of purchasing troops formation units for your army other than through the troops selection of the FOC.

You're making the false assumption that no FoC = no can purchase but that is not correct.

Formations are a purchase mechanism that doesn't require an FoC simply because the formation has a specific make up.

"An Adeptus Astartes Storm Wing is a Formation that consists of the following units chosen from Codex: Space Marines:
• 1 Stormraven Gunship
• 2 Stormtalon Gunships"

No mention of slots and there is no FoC in the dataslate.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
You're making the false assumption that no FoC = no can purchase but that is not correct.

Formations are a purchase mechanism that doesn't require an FoC simply because the formation has a specific make up.

"An Adeptus Astartes Storm Wing is a Formation that consists of the following units chosen from Codex: Space Marines:
• 1 Stormraven Gunship
• 2 Stormtalon Gunships"

No mention of slots and there is no FoC in the dataslate.

Does it tell you the units are purchased normally? If so that's from the FOC. It's literally the only function that 'normally' allows you to select units for your army.

There are rules for how you build your army and the FOC must be used to add units unless some exception is specifically noted. This is not noted for any dataslates I've seen though I'll admit that's not nearly all of them. This is a permissive rule set so I'm curious by what process you believe you are permitted to add those units to your army? It says what they consist of but details no purchasing mechanism of it's own, in fact saying the normal method must be used. Hence, the FOC must be used.

Anyone who says TROOPS taken from formations is either trying to be a nitpicking power gamer or just a"that guy" and just wouldn't play him, they are scoring.

 gmaleron wrote:
Anyone who says TROOPS taken from formations is either trying to be a nitpicking power gamer or just a"that guy" and just wouldn't play him, they are scoring.

While I agree they score I would disagree with the rest. There are very valid reasons for questioning whether or not they are scoring as has been demonstrated by the many well thought out posts here in this thread and in others as well. This is far from a question I would use to label someone a WAAC player but we all have our opinions.

Nowhere that I have read says "purchase normally". If it does say that anywhere I can't see that it means anything beyond you pay points for them as normal.

There is no requirement to follow the Codex FoC, or any other FoC for that matter, if there is I'd be stoked if you can give me a page reference for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:
Anyone who says TROOPS taken from formations is either trying to be a nitpicking power gamer or just a"that guy" and just wouldn't play him, they are scoring.

Under the tenants of Dalka YMDC we are disvussing the RAW, HIWPI is that they score as it seems logical to do so but there aren't any hard and fast rules to say that.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Nowhere that I have read says "purchase normally". If it does say that anywhere I can't see that it means anything beyond you pay points for them as normal.

There is no requirement to follow the Codex FoC, or any other FoC for that matter, if there is I'd be stoked if you can give me a page reference for it.

I don't see any mechanic that allows you to just pay points and have the unit(s). That is not 'normal'. There is a cost associated with units but no direct means of getting them without FOC slots. So how do you believe formation units are selected to be in your army?

There is an assumption in my argument but it's not regarding having to use slots to select units for your army. It's that you can add formation units to your army at all by using your existing slots to select them. Otherwise I see no legal method of adding formations to your army at all and that assumption only extends to defining 'normal' as using your FOC slots.

So there's the root of my argument. If they are legally in your army they came from the FOC. If they are troops(or are purchased as troops) they had to come from the troops selection of the FOC. Otherwise the army was not put together by the rules.

Formations are selected for your army by assembling them as directed in the Dataslate, unless that dataslate includes an FoC chart, as some of them do, then they aren't bought as FoC slots.

Those are the actual rules the ones written in the books that tell you how to make the formations.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Formations are selected for your army by assembling them as directed in the Dataslate, unless that dataslate includes an FoC chart, as some of them do, then they aren't bought as FoC slots.

Those are the actual rules the ones written in the books that tell you how to make the formations.

...they tell you to purchase the units from the army list entry.

"An Army List Entry provides all the relevant information to field a single unit in games of Warhammer 40,000 ... The unit can be used as part of any Detachment that corresponds to the Faction listed on the datasheet." -Tyranid Vanguard Rising Leviatan I, Army List entries

No mention of any special way to add the unit, it just refers you to the army list and tells you those units can be used in a formation. You are not permitted to buy a unit for a formation by the dataslate rules I've seen but you are permitted to use the unit in a formation. So you buy the unit first and then use it in a formation where it no longer occupies a slot. The only way to obtain the unit in the first place is still the FOC meaning that is still where it 'comes from'.

Force Orgainisation Chart is notebly absent from your quotes.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Force Orgainisation Chart is notebly absent from your quotes.

You have provided zero quotes concerning how to purchase units in a formation.

I have shown that the units can only be purchased normally and then used in a formation. Care to back your own claims?

Scoring units are those from the Troops section of the FOC
Formations do not have a FOC.

QED

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Scoring units are those from the Troops section of the FOC
Formations do not have a FOC.

QED

This is false. All detachments are part of the FOC. You have it wrong. An FOC is not a subset of the detachment. The FOC as defined by the BRB is the entire Army including the all detachments. The crux of the argument rest with the "Selection" is limited to the little boxes in the diagram.

 thejughead wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Scoring units are those from the Troops section of the FOC
Formations do not have a FOC.

QED

This is false. All detachments are part of the FOC. You have it wrong. An FOC is not a subset of the detachment. The FOC as defined by the BRB is the entire Army including the all detachments. The crux of the argument rest with the "Selection" is limited to the little boxes in the diagram.

It is demonstrably not. If I am running an entire Militarum Tempestus army, I must select troops choices (Scions). I can put 3 of them in Valkyries as well. Then I must select an HQ, say a MT Command Squad. This too will get a Valkyrie. Lastly, I throw in a Commissar to ensure that the troops remain steadfast in the face of the enemies of Mankind.

Suddenly I'm the datasheet, and get all sorts of awesome special rules.

Why would my troops suddenly become un-scoring?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 thejughead wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Scoring units are those from the Troops section of the FOC
Formations do not have a FOC.

QED

This is false. All detachments are part of the FOC. You have it wrong. An FOC is not a subset of the detachment. The FOC as defined by the BRB is the entire Army including the all detachments. The crux of the argument rest with the "Selection" is limited to the little boxes in the diagram.

It is demonstrably not. If I am running an entire Militarum Tempestus army, I must select troops choices (Scions). I can put 3 of them in Valkyries as well. Then I must select an HQ, say a MT Command Squad. This too will get a Valkyrie. Lastly, I throw in a Commissar to ensure that the troops remain steadfast in the face of the enemies of Mankind.

Suddenly I'm the datasheet, and get all sorts of awesome special rules.

Why would my troops suddenly become un-scoring?

Are you arguing that troops ARE scoring in formations? Because that's what he said as well.

I also got confused who says what.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Scoring units are those from the Troops section of the FOC
Formations do not have a FOC.

QED

Right, never disagreed with that.

Now if you'd care to give us some quotes please supporting your view of how units for formations are purchased for your army. I'll wait...


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 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Why would my troops suddenly become un-scoring?

A very good question.

I use the troops selection of the FOC to select a unit of five genestealers for my army. I decide to use them in a formation. Suddenly they are not on the FOC and yet they still came from the troops selection of the FOC so they are still scoring.

Opponent says: You can't do that. You bought those as part of your primary detachment.

I say: Actually the data slate says I can indeed use them as part of a formation.

Opponent: They not on the FOC so they don't score.

Me: They're still from the FOC even if they are no longer on it and the rule says 'any units that come from the troops selection of the FOC'.

Oppenent: No, you have to buy formation units for the formation not for your primary detachment.

Me: Nothing says that and there is no rule allowing anyone to buy units specifically for a formation. It does in fact say I can use those units in a formation though so I've taken the only logical course by selecting them with my primary slots and then using them in a formation.

"An Adeptus Astartes Storm Wing is a Formation that consists of the following units chosen from Codex: Space Marines:
• 1 Stormraven Gunship
• 2 Stormtalon Gunships"

"A Manufactorum Genestealers Formation consists of the following units:
• 5 Genestealer Broods"

No FoC there mate.

Perhaps you'd best provides some quotes on your made up notion of a "purchasing process" that extends beyond "as normal (which I can't find mentioned anywhere)" and includes a reference to a Force Organisation Chart.

"I use the troops selection of the FOC to select a unit of five genestealers for my army. "

Which FOC are you referring to? There isn't one in the Nid dataslate.

If the units are not visible on the FOC then it cannot be said the units are from the troops selection of the foc. Hence how can they be scoring?

Can you show some evidence for this "all formation units arrive in my army by way of the primary detachment" argument?

If the formation units come from a codex other than the one used for the primary detachment can you show how you can have more than one codex in the same detachment?

The rules actually say that you buy the units for the formation, the formation is a detachment consisting of X where x is the list. You don't move units through the primary slots for the rest of the FOC and you are making up rules, admitting it and are as such arguing RAI.

Also putting 5 genestealer units in the formation means you don't have the 2 troops minimum in your primary and have an illegal list.

Uptopdownunder wrote:"An Adeptus Astartes Storm Wing is a Formation that consists of the following units chosen from Codex: Space Marines:
• 1 Stormraven Gunship
• 2 Stormtalon Gunships"

"A Manufactorum Genestealers Formation consists of the following units:
• 5 Genestealer Broods"

No FoC there mate.

Perhaps you'd best provides some quotes on your made up notion of a "purchasing process" that extends beyond "as normal (which I can't find mentioned anywhere)" and includes a reference to a Force Organisation Chart.

"I use the troops selection of the FOC to select a unit of five genestealers for my army. "

Which FOC are you referring to? There isn't one in the Nid dataslate.

So still not quotes to show how those units are purchased... please back up you arguments per the tenets of the forum.

I have shown quotes to support my claim. Mention of the FOC is not required for it and you would know that if you actually were attempting to understand it.

BTW, there is only one FOC for an army so I'm assuming either the last line contains a trick question or you don't really know what you're talking about.

liturgies of blood wrote:If the units are not visible on the FOC then it cannot be said the units are from the troops selection of the foc. Hence how can they be scoring?

Can you show some evidence for this "all formation units arrive in my army by way of the primary detachment" argument?

If the formation units come from a codex other than the one used for the primary detachment can you show how you can have more than one codex in the same detachment?

The rules actually say that you buy the units for the formation, the formation is a detachment consisting of X where x is the list. You don't move units through the primary slots for the rest of the FOC and you are making up rules, admitting it and are as such arguing RAI.

Also putting 5 genestealer units in the formation means you don't have the 2 troops minimum in your primary and have an illegal list.

-Line by line-
Incorrect. Whether or not the unit is there says nothing regarding whether or not the unit 'comes from' there.

You mean aside from them referring you to the army list in the codex to purchase them which I already quoted? Well as that is the only way to purchase a unit from the army list that's pretty self evident.

You can't as far as I know ever have units from different factions in the same detachment but if you want a formation from another codex there's always the allied detachment slots to use to purchase units from.

Citation required here. I only see that you can use them for a formation. Every other rule regarding acquiring them just refers you the the codex. I've made up no rules. I in fact quoted the rule allowing you to use them in a formation. The rule makes no exception for how the unit is obtained. It says a unit of 5 genestealers can be used in a formation. No rule bars you from using units selected for your primary detachment in this fashion. This also happens to be the only rules supported way of doing it unless you can prove your statement that you can buy units specifically for a formation.

No using a unit 5 genestealers in a formation does not make a list illegal. It simply means they will not count toward your requirements so other units that do must be taken to fill those.
Edit: You said 5 units of genestealers and I missread as I was talking about a unit of 5. still does not make a list illegal. Those units now do not take up slots as part of a formation so you are free to select other units to fill your requirements.

Not every formation can be arrived at by buying units for your primary detachment.

But if you did, would they suddenly stop being scoring?

I.E. my militarum tempestus example - I qualify for the extra special rules from the formation by having all of the models it mandates, even though they were bought as a primary detachment.

You're saying I can either choose to field it as the formation or the primary detachment?

Because literally the only difference are the fancy and imo rather pointless special rules.

Your formation is required to have certain units in it. Where do purchase those units from?

Abandon, if a unit resides in part of the foc how does it not come from there when we're discussing the foc? Please explain the distinction between being in the slots and being from the troops selection?

You are trying to conflate the FOC with the army list section of the codex but they are not the same thing.

 Abandon wrote:


Citation required here. I only see that you can use them for a formation. Every other rule regarding acquiring them just refers you the the codex. I've made up no rules. I in fact quoted the rule allowing you to use them in a formation. The rule makes no exception for how the unit is obtained. It says a unit of 5 genestealers can be used in a formation. No rule bars you from using units selected for your primary detachment in this fashion. This also happens to be the only rules supported way of doing it unless you can prove your statement that you can buy units specifically for a formation.

A Formation presents a collection of two or more units that fight alongside one another in a particular way. When you choose an army, you can take a Formation as a special form of Detachment. Unless otherwise stated, you can take any number of Formations in your army, and each is considered to be a completely separate Detachment, regardless of how many units make it up.
Each Formation will tell you what units you need to take and what, if any, options or restrictions apply to the units that make up that Formation. The army list entries for
each unit in the Formation (the units’ profiles, points values, unit types, unit composition, special rules, battlefield role etc.) can either be found in the codex corresponding to the Faction on the datasheet, or elsewhere in the dataslate itself.

Formation Points Values
Formations do not usually include a points value; just add up the points value of the individual units and options to find out the total points value of the Formation. Occasionally a Formation will require that you pay extra points in order to use it. In this case, the cost of the Formation is the total cost of the units plus any extra points the datasheet specifies you have to pay.

So a unit can be purchased for a primary and allied detachment from a codex as per the brb and codices and the units go in their respective detachments only but with formations they have to be purchased by way of individual slots in the other detachments?
You wouldn't accept that the formation doesn't require the individual unit selection as it specifies what units are in there?
Why do we ignore the rules on page 108 and 109 and make up rules about purchases going through primary detachments?

First off, just so you know, I'm not just being obstinate for no reason nor am I filibustering or trolling and am in fact seriously discussing the issue. I know my line of thinking on this is far off from yours and I'm happy you've taken the time to try and understand my point of view even if in the end either of us is shown to be incorrect or we simply agree to disagree or however it goes I'm taking this moment to express my gratitude for your contributions to the discussion.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Abandon, if a unit resides in part of the foc how does it not come from there when we're discussing the foc?

You are trying to conflate the FOC with the army list section of the codex but they are not the same thing. If where they are from on the foc is not the part of the foc they are from then what the hell does that line mean?

By the broadest sense of the words, in order to 'come from' the troops selection of the FOC a unit must originate there in some sense. That the unit comes to you army via the troops selection of the FOC is quite enough to define it as coming from the the troops selection of the FOC.

The army list in the codex and the FOC are not the same thing. Agreed.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 Abandon wrote:


Citation required here. I only see that you can use them for a formation. Every other rule regarding acquiring them just refers you the the codex. I've made up no rules. I in fact quoted the rule allowing you to use them in a formation. The rule makes no exception for how the unit is obtained. It says a unit of 5 genestealers can be used in a formation. No rule bars you from using units selected for your primary detachment in this fashion. This also happens to be the only rules supported way of doing it unless you can prove your statement that you can buy units specifically for a formation.

A Formation presents a collection of two or more units that fight alongside one another in a particular way. When you choose an army, you can take a Formation as a special form of Detachment. Unless otherwise stated, you can take any number of Formations in your army, and each is considered to be a completely separate Detachment, regardless of how many units make it up.
Each Formation will tell you what units you need to take and what, if any, options or restrictions apply to the units that make up that Formation. The army list entries for
each unit in the Formation (the units’ profiles, points values, unit types, unit composition, special rules, battlefield role etc.) can either be found in the codex corresponding to the Faction on the datasheet, or elsewhere in the dataslate itself.

So a unit can be purchased for a primary and allied detachment from a codex as per the brb and codices and the units go in their respective detachments only but with formations they have to be purchased by way of individual slots in the other detachments?
You wouldn't accept that the formation doesn't require the individual unit selection as it specifies what units are in there?

-This still does not cover the purchasing of units that you intend to fill the formation(special detachment) with.
-The BRB in union with the codex has you select units using the FOC but this is not a function given to formations nor is any function detailed to replace it.
-No, I would not accept that from an RAW standpoint without a rule stating as much. It details what units it consists of but lists no function that would allow me to obtain those units in and of itself. The dataslate itself even tells us to see the army list entry for how to field the unit as I have quoted so it is entirely logical to determine that you must purchase the unit through the codex. The codex of course refers us to the BRB which then leads us then to the FOC.


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 liturgies of blood wrote:

Formation Points Values
Formations do not usually include a points value; just add up the points value of the individual units and options to find out the total points value of the Formation. Occasionally a Formation will require that you pay extra points in order to use it. In this case, the cost of the Formation is the total cost of the units plus any extra points the datasheet specifies you have to pay.

Yes, the total points value of a formation can be determined... That is still not a means of obtaining those units. You decide to include an Endless Swarm Formation in your army. What's it's points value? You don't know until you purchase the units...


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 liturgies of blood wrote:

Why do we ignore the rules on page 108 and 109 and make up rules about purchases going through primary detachments?

What rules on these pages do you believe I'm ignoring?

I'm permitted to purchase a unit of genestealers using a primary troops slot. I'm permitted to use a unit of genstealers in a formation.
"The unit can be used as part of any Detachment that corresponds to the Faction listed on the datasheet." -Tyranid Vanguard Rising Leviatan I, Army List entries
So I use the unit I selected using the FOC for the formation.

Have you got even the slightest shred of evidence that says you purchase units for a formation through a primary detachment slot?

Formations are a detachment with a set list of units. You even admit the brb and codices tell us how to fill a detachment and we don't need any more "modified" permission to fill the formation beside that. The brb tells you how to purchase units and the formation rules clearly describe the only changes that we need.

As Uptopdownunder has asked where is the evidence for this by way of primary detachment purchases?

I don't know about you Abanbdon but that is a very narrow view IMHO. That the units are from the FOC that makes up your army list cannot be questioned. That they can be shown to come from the troops selection is similarly demonstrable.