Well I apologize for any insult I caused. Clearly I was wrong in think you are one of the new glut of digital guys looking to cash in on digital printing for minis.
Please do nto take what I am going to say the wrong way but it is advice given from a VERY hard learned lesson.
Start small and grow over time.
I know that seems like BS but please trust me when I say I know what I am talking about.
I am just a game maker trying to do what I think would be cool. I love miniatures. I love tabletop wargaming. I love sci-fi. I have spent all of my savings and racked up my credit cards to get to this point. Should I have waited a bit longer to get things more solidified? Yeah. But I am out of time and money. If I didn't launch the KS then I wouldn't get to keep working on it, and it would go into the pile of other games I hope to one day have the time and money to build.
I hope you realize that this doesn't really do anything to instill any confidence in anyone here, right?
It never ceases to amaze me how so many people seem to jump into these types of projects without any kind of clear project plan. It's hard for me to fathom.
For those of you have have backed and supported me and my grand idea of creating some affordable miniatures. With every fiber of my being, I thank you. With your help we can prove everyone else wrong. The little guy can stand up to the big guy. We can shrug off the insults and verbal oppression. We can build a new universe that at least has some ray of hope no matter how small. And we can show that greed does not have to the be basis of all business.
The proselytizing is a bit much, don't you think?
The big guy succeeds because he plans. Plenty of little guys succeed because they plan. And they co-exist just fine. You can throw around words like "greed" and "oppression," but that doesn't absolve you of the fact that your KS would be more successful if you had a clear project map for your potential investors. Pretty sizable pieces of information were ambiguous or non-existent. That's not a good thing for a brand new company.
Had you launched this project 12-18 months ago, your success would have been all but guaranteed. But in that time, the consumer base has grown exponentially more informed about Kickstarter projects, and you need to realize that people want as much information they can before plunking down their hard earned money on an untested source.
I hope you're able to get more organized and regroup, but your attitude isn't going to win friends or influence people. And that's unfortunate, as you clearly have some talented artists on your team.
cincydooley wrote: It never ceases to amaze me how so many people seem to jump into these types of projects without any kind of clear project plan. It's hard for me to fathom.
That is the nature of Kickstarter. Miniature gamers are more critical though of Kickstarter than say a board gamer. If this was a board game, half of these questions wouldn't pop up because most of the manufacturing is a clear cut process. Miniatures is the same, but the hobbyists are a bit more fanatical. It isn't a bad thing necessarily but also isn't a good thing. On a forum too people tend to be cut and dry, so a lot of text is taken out of context than if people were meeting face to face. There are a few people who I thought I'd never like because of how they talked on forums, but when I met them at GenCon it was a completely different experience.
They do have a plan, at least they believe they do. They reached out to Ed and took his response as they could work something out. They believe they could do the Kickstarter, they left plenty of time to get in the queue and sign a contract afterward. I can see how it is easy to do. When I first contacted Ed awhile back, the prospect was good. Then 2 months went by without a response. I know he is busy but initial contact was great, when it came time to hammer things down it was a bit harder. I don't think they are trying to purposely do anything devious... but they are coming at from a video game background and signing contracts means something a little bit different.
cincydooley wrote: Had you launched this project 12-18 months ago, your success would have been all but guaranteed. But in that time, the consumer base has grown exponentially more informed about Kickstarter projects, and you need to realize that people want as much information they can before plunking down their hard earned money on an untested source.
I don't think the consumer base has grown more informed, it is more they have become more jaded because they have been burned by larger companies with plans, the budget to be able to use backup options and they haven't. The idea of backing someone because of what they are trying to do is gone, at least with miniatures, trust has to be earned. The smaller company could have the best plan available and even with a contract, it will get picked apart by the crowd. That is the nature of Kickstarter currently, where if someone was only asking 10K it is less likely to have an issue. If he did a small line of humans and wanted 10K, there would be less flak. In that type of atmosphere, the nature of Kickstarter has faltered from what it was originally intended and designed for unfortunately.
WarPrime wrote: The ruler: Yes...I know people want to see my miniatures standing right next to a GW mini. Based on all the opinion I got here in this thread (and on BoLS) the frequent comments about getting sued made me a bit more cautious. I didn't think slapping a picture of a GW product on my KS page was a very good idea. I have seen some other KS do it, but they didn't have Sci-fi games with men in powered armor so their risk was a lot less.
The only reason people mention a space marine is that it's the most prevalent mini in the world probably so most gamers have access to one. A ruler is more than good enough, preferably the right way around, starting at the minis feet and in mm not just inches.
WarPrime wrote: Video Games: Yeah...we want to make a video game set in this universe. We built a prototype of War Prime with low-poly (2000polys) models for Tablets. The estimate to get the full game made and brought to development would have cost in excess of $500,000US. I was no comfortable coming onto Kickstarter and asking for half a million dollars. So I thought I would start small. Build a real miniatures game. Build a foundation. A fan base. I guess I am still a romantic at heart and believe that if you are passionate, and honest about something. People will get behind you and help you build it. I am not trying to match GW quality. They have 30 years on me. So the only way I can compete is do something they can't. Make some cool miniatures for a great price.
Firstly, that's not something they can't do, it's something they choose not do do because they'd like to make money. Good luck with the philanthropy though.
Secondly, it doesn't take 30 years of anything to match GW's quality, they aren't even objectively the quality you should be aiming for these days, it's been a long while since a GW mini won a best mini poll anywhere. They are good for the most part but have long since been surpassed in quality by a number of smaller companies/sculptors. Their business sense, deep pockets and massive IP is what keeps them as the market leader.
WarPrime wrote: I am starting to think I was wrong. Maybe I should just be greedy and only care about the money. Charging you $30 for less than $3 worth of plastic.
*sigh* Seriously? I think you missed off the end of your sentence. ...$3 worth of plastic plus design costs, sculpting costs, massive manufacturing costs and shipping.
Out of interest, how much are you charging for $3 worth of plastic? Oh wait, you can't afford to make proper plastic minis, maybe that's because it doesn't really cost $3.
WarPrime wrote: The Plastic: I am sure it will get posted up here soon but I thought I would post the latest Update on the KS page so you hear it from me:
=========================================================
My dear backers,
First let me say how thankful I am for all the support and kind words I have received so far. And to be so far along in such a short time is huge! Kicktraq currently has us trending to succeed at $133k. That is amazing and I thank you.
If you think Kicktraq has ever been correct in the history of time about it's trending then you are very horribly mistaken. The site itself even admits that it's totally useless as an actual indicator of what you're getting until the last couple of days. You'll noticed it's dropped 30k in a single day, keep an eye on it as it falls day after day.
I am just a game maker trying to do what I think would be cool. I love miniatures. I love tabletop wargaming. I love sci-fi. I have spent all of my savings and racked up my credit cards to get to this point. Should I have waited a bit longer to get things more solidified? Yeah. But I am out of time and money. If I didn't launch the KS then I wouldn't get to keep working on it, and it would go into the pile of other games I hope to one day have the time and money to build.
You've spent all of your savings and racked up credit cards to get... half a dozen 3d sculpts, some prints and then a bunch of sketches?
By any chance are you including money spent on the failed video game project here?
WarPrime wrote: If you don't like the designs. Don't back it. You think we can't deliver. Don't back it. You think Im an ass-hole who is only trying to "cash in on the miniatures market". Don't back it. It's as simple as that. But I have been nothing but open and honest. My email is easy to find. eric@kingmakergames.com I am always willing to talk and share my thoughts and ideas. It seems I have had a few conversations with people on here who thought what I said was a "Joke" and "face palm" worthy. But rather than talking to me about it they ran off here to the rumor mill to stir the gak. I thank you for the same trust and honesty I shared with you.
For those of you have have backed and supported me and my grand idea of creating some affordable miniatures. With every fiber of my being, I thank you. With your help we can prove everyone else wrong. The little guy can stand up to the big guy. We can shrug off the insults and verbal oppression. We can build a new universe that at least has some ray of hope no matter how small. And we can show that greed does not have to the be basis of all business.
Thank you.
No, thank you! Thanks for being the saviour of our industry and showing us all how philanthropic we can be. Before you came along and showed us the way all of us already working in the industry were just being led around by greed while sipping dom out of platinum goblets bought with the cash we suckered out of our poor misled customers. Damn the man! Power to the people! ...
Just out of interest, you are aware that despite your entire business plan basicallly being 'We're sort of a really cut rate version of GW, stick it to the man by buying our stuff for less money!' that there are hundreds of other miniature companies out there right? And by implying the above you basically insulted them all, including me.
I was thinking of asking a bunch of pointed questions like why you seem comfortable that 1 in 5 of all of your product is going to be broken, or why you have allocated a massive chunk of your goal to 'marketing' and 'fulfillment' but after this rather ridiculous post I probably shouldn't as my sarcasm might get the better of me and this isn't the forum for that.
Well, no. There are plenty of instances of well planned KS projects out there. Plenty.
They do have a plan, at least they believe they do. They reached out to Ed and took his response as they could work something out. They believe they could do the Kickstarter, they left plenty of time to get in the queue and sign a contract afterward. I can see how it is easy to do. When I first contacted Ed awhile back, the prospect was good. Then 2 months went by without a response. I know he is busy but initial contact was great, when it came time to hammer things down it was a bit harder. I don't think they are trying to purposely do anything devious... but they are coming at from a video game background and signing contracts means something a little bit different.
Sadly, your faith and belief doesn't amount to much here. We called multiple places about our wedding reception. But none of them held our place and guaranteed us a spot until we signed a contract. I can't imagine why anyone would think that'd be different with production. Coming from a video game background means signing contracts is different? You're going to have to explain that one to me.
I don't think the consumer base has grown more informed
I mean, I completely disagree. The amount of knowledge about the production process and production materials has increased significantly.
...it is more they have become more jaded because they have been burned by larger companies with plans, the budget to be able to use backup options and they haven't. The idea of backing someone because of what they are trying to do is gone, at least with miniatures, trust has to be earned. The smaller company could have the best plan available and even with a contract, it will get picked apart by the crowd.
And it should be. Kickstarter backers are beginning to treat these crowdfunding scenarios more like investors. As they should. If Warprime or even Fallen Frontiers went to look for traditional funding (via investor or bank loan) with the information they've presented us, they'd be laughed out of the room. IMO, it's GOOD that people that crowdfunding investors are starting to do this. Very good. We SHOULD hold these people accountable for and with our money.
That is the nature of Kickstarter currently, where if someone was only asking 10K it is less likely to have an issue. If he did a small line of humans and wanted 10K, there would be less flak. In that type of atmosphere, the nature of Kickstarter has faltered from what it was originally intended and designed for unfortunately.
Originally intended? Give me a break. It was never intended as a charity, which is what it seems like you're implying.
I wonder if there is a general lack of understanding on the part of Kingmaker about the state of the wargaming hobby?
Firstly there's the whole 'GW is expensive, why isn't anyone doing anything about that?' angle, then the 'well, we were going to do a comparison shot, but GW would sue us' line.
It's like the creator truthfully has come back to the hobby after 20 years or so and not noticed any of the myriad companies that have sprung up recently, and so genuinely believes they come offering something unique to the market.
cincydooley wrote: Well, no. There are plenty of instances of well planned KS projects out there. Plenty.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing against it. There are equally as many KS that appear to be well planned, but aren't as well and they do fine. There are also well planned KS projects that don't make it. I'm also not saying that someone shouldn't have a plan either, merely playing devils advocate. ^_^
I won't quote anymore, because I think that by doing that... it may be creating an misunderstanding that I'm arguing but then again I could be reading the text wrong. It also isn't my faith and belief. Yes contracts depending on the field are different. When you make a contract to develop, design and deliver something the terms are outlined. In some cases that includes a delivery date, upfront portion of $$ in good faith and there are penalties for not delivering. That is why some cases reach out through Kickstarter to establish the customer base, the money for and ensure they are delivering to avoid failure to deliver. This also happens with other products. If I sign a contract ordering 1000 units, but because I fail to get funding and unable to fulfill my end then I have to pay a fee. For some manufacturing it could be as simple as it just means the place is lost in the que and the next person moves up though.
I can see your point. There is a large amount of knowledge about the process and materials and it has increased significantly. There is also a large amount of people who believe they understand the process because they read it on a forum. I also believe though that knowledge mixed with what has happened with some other bigger name Kickstarters has still made people a bit jaded. Like I said if it was a 10K project or a board game, most of these questions don't come up. The comments are already there "start with a small line of miniatures first then do another larger project". There is a lot of information about programming, game design and mechanics but look at any game company and everyone is a armchair programmer... that doesn't necessarily mean they understand the full process from start to finish.
I am not entirely agreeing but disagreeing. I think we all got into Kickstarters for different reasons and my reasons for backing them a couple years ago has also changed compared to how I back now. The market has also changed as more Kickstarters are treating it as pre-sales, which is valid. They ensure they have a customer base, they sell and advertise their product and don't have to worry about launching a product without a customer base. It is a less gamble for not only the company but for the customers. As much as everyone tries to say crowd funding is investing, it isn't because my taxes definitely don't recognize it that way. It is both good and bad aspects to it.
I never said Kickstarter was a charity, nor did I imply that. If it was, no one (including myself) would be caring about what material was made from or who it came from. Kickstarter was originally simply crowd funding, a venture that gets funded by raising small amounts of money from a large number of people for the promise of 'something'. It was a way for the litle guy who through traditional means couldn't get funded but could bring projects to life. It has now changed to becoming a pre-sales, marketing for Mantic, CoolMini and other companies that were once the small guy and now are established small-medium sized companies with backing no longer needing a Kickstarter. However it is still used now as that platform to launch new products. Again... it is both good and bad but it doesn't change the fact that Kickstarter moved away from what was its original intent... again it was not a charity, nor was it a pre-sale platform. I should rephrase that since a large part of Kickstarter still has that view. The games section though has definitely changed.
I find your reply to Eric to be in poor taste and unnecessarily personal. The forum is a much more pleasant place to be if people refrain from ad hominem attacks and excessive use of sarcasm.
The 'were going to take 40k in funding and instantly throw 2.5k of it in the bin as damages' is a massive gak up. Thats how many pledges just to account for poor production? At lease they wont be wasting money on colour box art.
it really annoys me that many decent ks just scrape through funding, deliver their goods and have to struggle whilst others promise the world with no idea how to achieve it and rake in the cash. There really needs to be some accountability for kickstarter projects and I for one am happy that dakkas providing it before people commit their cash.
Admittedly all comments should be constructive, however emotion does come in to it.
I find your reply to Eric to be in poor taste and unnecessarily personal. The forum is a much more pleasant place to be if people refrain from ad hominem attacks and excessive use of sarcasm.
It 'is' personal when someone starts claiming to be the solution to this industry's greed. If he wants to insult GW, he should feel free to name them, if he wants to cover his ass by just referring to the industry as a whole then he can realise that there's a considerable number of people in it other than GW.
Riquende wrote: then the 'well, we were going to do a comparison shot, but GW would sue us' line.
It is a valid concern although honestly if they want to sue they will... it doesn't matter if they use their image for size comparison or not. It wouldn't be because they used their figure, it would be because the line seems similar to theirs. No one as far as I'm know have been sued for showing an image next to another image on a Kickstarter (although a couple have had C&D letters for other parts of their projects). I'm not sure any company is ready for the bad light it would receive to sue because of size comparison shot.
It is easier though for a individual to post pictures but it does become a gray area when a commercial entity uses an image of something that isn't theirs to do a comparison. I can't legally show artwork from another person/company to compare my work with even if I put a disclaimer that it isn't mine. Miniatures can do it and no one as far as I know has pushed that envelope, most likely because they'd come off as a bully more than anything. My lawyer actually advised me against the same thing. Although I would still do it for the Kickstarter, just not post the images on the website for facebook and leave that for members to do. It is a valid concern but again, a C&D shouldn't happen because of it.
I doubt anyone would be successfully sued for use of another company's products in a comparison photo - I would assume it falls under rules for Comparative Advertising
I'm not saying GW wouldn't issue a C&D for it, but C&D's can often be safely ignored or given the Arkell vs Pressdram Response
Yeah, even Fallen Frontiers did it and their stuff was even more of 'a tribute' to GW's design than this is -but I thought I should dig up some legal back up as opposed to just 'everyone else does' - being fair, I wouldn't gamble MY company on trusting that other people's decisions were sound/
it really annoys me that many decent ks just scrape through funding, deliver their goods and have to struggle whilst others promise the world with no idea how to achieve it and rake in the cash. There really needs to be some accountability for kickstarter projects and I for one am happy that dakkas providing it before people commit their cash.
I find your reply to Eric to be in poor taste and unnecessarily personal. The forum is a much more pleasant place to be if people refrain from ad hominem attacks and excessive use of sarcasm.
It 'is' personal when someone starts claiming to be the solution to this industry's greed. If he wants to insult GW, he should feel free to name them, if he wants to cover his ass by just referring to the industry as a whole then he can realise that there's a considerable number of people in it other than GW.
Equating the level of personal affront found in the sentence "we can show that greed does not have to be the basis of all business" used by Eric in a KS update and your wall of snark in reply is silly. Again, making your response to his post in poor taste, and unnecessarily personal.
I find your reply to Eric to be in poor taste and unnecessarily personal. The forum is a much more pleasant place to be if people refrain from ad hominem attacks and excessive use of sarcasm.
It 'is' personal when someone starts claiming to be the solution to this industry's greed. If he wants to insult GW, he should feel free to name them, if he wants to cover his ass by just referring to the industry as a whole then he can realise that there's a considerable number of people in it other than GW.
Equating the level of personal affront found in the sentence "we can show that greed does not have to be the basis of all business" used by Eric in a KS update and your wall of snark in reply is silly. Again, making your response to his post in poor taste, and unnecessarily personal.
Well, you're absolutely welcome to your own opinion. I will continue to find his attitude ridiculous and insulting and you can continue to find my response all of the above, seems fair
Gallahad wrote: Again, making your response to his post in poor taste, and unnecessarily personal.
I'm intrigued - I can buy "unnecessarily personal" - I don't agree but I can see how you might feel it, but "in poor taste"? I honestly don't see anything in poor taste in these posts - could you elaborate? I don't know if this is just a culture clash where the UK posters (and especially those of us who also frequent the more forthright miniature forums) tend to (a) be more willing to criticise and (b) do so in a less than respectful way. We always got the impression that it was us in the UK who were the kow-towing subjects and that the US was the home of free speech and more rough and tumble in debate, but when it comes to KS projects there does seem to be a flipping of stereotypes.
(I'm off to bed btw so don't take any delay in replying as a personal slight )
it really annoys me that many decent ks just scrape through funding, deliver their goods and have to struggle whilst others promise the world with no idea how to achieve it and rake in the cash. There really needs to be some accountability for kickstarter projects and I for one am happy that dakkas providing it before people commit their cash.
a lot of kickstarters recently have faced such high scrutiny, I've started a thread on the current state of minature ks and would like your opions. Feel free to take any aspect of current ks trends and opions there.
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote: Plenty of miniatures companies have shown pics of their models next to GW's with no problems whatsoever. It's fairly common practice, actually.
~Tim?
I think the usual, "You're going to get sued!" communications towards anyone who even dares to think of making a sci-fi miniatures game might have scared the owners. Whether it's a legitimate fear or not is beside the point; if you have a fear that someone is going to sue you (and being American it's nearly as bad a going to the kitchen for a glass of water), you try to avoid it. Look, the guy apologized and put a tape measure upright, next to his model. What do people want? For him to drive to their house and ask for forgiveness on bent knee?
Not directed at you Tim, just a general comment.
I don't think these guys have their act together but I also don't think they've earned Defiance, Tony Reidy levels of scorn either. YMMV.
it really annoys me that many decent ks just scrape through funding, deliver their goods and have to struggle whilst others promise the world with no idea how to achieve it and rake in the cash. There really needs to be some accountability for kickstarter projects and I for one am happy that dakkas providing it before people commit their cash.
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote: Plenty of miniatures companies have shown pics of their models next to GW's with no problems whatsoever. It's fairly common practice, actually.
~Tim?
I think the usual, "You're going to get sued!" communications towards anyone who even dares to think of making a sci-fi miniatures game might have scared the owners. Whether it's a legitimate fear or not is beside the point; if you have a fear that someone is going to sue you (and being American it's nearly as bad a going to the kitchen for a glass of water), you try to avoid it. Look, the guy apologized and put a tape measure upright, next to his model. What do people want? For him to drive to their house and ask for forgiveness on bent knee?
Not directed at you Tim, just a general comment.
I don't think these guys have their act together but I also don't think they've earned Defiance, Tony Reidy levels of scorn either. YMMV.
I am not surprised that many people said that GW wil sue them, considering their early pictures. Seriously my thought was "that is a strange Ultramarine image" when I saw them on BoLS Gamewire page. All the negativity is, at least from my point of view understandable. The Kickstarter is poorly executed, and the creator presents himself regularly as a Victim of opression and saviour of the industry in the same breath.
They talk as if they work on the next instant tabletop classic, but they don't deliver. I hope for them that they sort this problems out, and I wish them all luck they need to bring this thing trough but they need to do their homework first.
Riquende wrote: then the 'well, we were going to do a comparison shot, but GW would sue us' line.
It is a valid concern although honestly if they want to sue they will... it doesn't matter if they use their image for size comparison or not. It wouldn't be because they used their figure, it would be because the line seems similar to theirs. No one as far as I'm know have been sued for showing an image next to another image on a Kickstarter (although a couple have had C&D letters for other parts of their projects). I'm not sure any company is ready for the bad light it would receive to sue because of size comparison shot.
It is easier though for a individual to post pictures but it does become a gray area when a commercial entity uses an image of something that isn't theirs to do a comparison. I can't legally show artwork from another person/company to compare my work with even if I put a disclaimer that it isn't mine. Miniatures can do it and no one as far as I know has pushed that envelope, most likely because they'd come off as a bully more than anything. My lawyer actually advised me against the same thing. Although I would still do it for the Kickstarter, just not post the images on the website for facebook and leave that for members to do. It is a valid concern but again, a C&D shouldn't happen because of it.
Did... did you just completely miss the whole point of my post? Why, yes you did!
The point is that you don't need to take comparison pictures next to GW figures at all, there are plenty of miniature out there, many of which now are very popular ranges. My point was that the creator seemed unaware of this.
I don't care one iota what the legal situation with GW is, because you can avoid it entirely.
Gallahad wrote:@Artemis Black,
I find your reply to Eric to be in poor taste and unnecessarily personal. The forum is a much more pleasant place to be if people refrain from ad hominem attacks and excessive use of sarcasm.
Please learn what an 'ad hominem' is before accusing anyone of doing it. You may not like insults, but they're not automatically ad hominems. Don't be 'that guy' who tosses about fancy phrases in discussions without understanding their meanings.
richred_uk wrote: I doubt anyone would be successfully sued for use of another company's products in a comparison photo - I would assume it falls under rules for Comparative Advertising
Yes and no, it isn't completely black and white like that.
Riquende wrote: The point is that you don't need to take comparison pictures next to GW figures at all, there are plenty of miniature out there, many of which now are very popular ranges. My point was that the creator seemed unaware of this.
It has nothing to do with if it was a GW figure at all. As a commercial company entity you can't and shouldn't be utilizing photos of another product that you don't own the copyright to. It could be Reaper miniatures and they could technically be liable for a C&D at the very least.
The defense "everyone else does it" doesn't hold up in a court of law. Now the chances of it happening are going to be rare and it hasn't happened yet but just because it hasn't happened it doesn't make it legal.
I find the human concepts to have more in common with Warzone then current 40k.
The hyperbole from the creator is getting a little much. There are many companies doing what you are hoping to do. Show us why you are worth putting money in to, don't tell us.
Understand that a significant portion of community is very familiar with the issues and potential pitfalls that you are facing because A: they have been/are project creators B: they have/are currently experiencing project fulfillment as backers.
Try to appreciate that there is little to no 'trolling' happening here. Most of us want to see good projects do well, it helps everyone to have a strong, competitive marketplace, but a high threshold for Crowdfunding has been established.
I you haven't yet you should research Defiance Games as an example of why backers have every reason to be suspicious of the sort of promises and terminology that you are using.
Look at Dreamforge Games for an example of how someone with all his ducks in a row has maintained good will and high quality despite running late on delivery.
Look at Sedition Wars and Gates of Antares to see how being respected and established in the community doesn't overcome a shoddy plan and poor production.
Don't be a martyr, don't be passive aggressive, be open minded and responsive to criticism.
The hyperbole from the creator is getting a little much. There are many companies doing what you are hoping to do. Show us why you are worth putting money in to, don't tell us.
This. So, so much this. I was pretty interested for a little while, but after having been exposed to the creator's whole "I'm a martyr/War Prime is the second coming of gaming" spiel, I've pretty much lost all interest in it. He just comes off as a *bit* of an egomaniac.
~Tim?
P.S. And the passive-aggressiveness ain't helping things at all.
plastictrees wrote: I find the human concepts to have more in common with Warzone then current 40k.
The hyperbole from the creator is getting a little much. There are many companies doing what you are hoping to do. Show us why you are worth putting money in to, don't tell us.
Understand that a significant portion of community is very familiar with the issues and potential pitfalls that you are facing because A: they have been/are project creators B: they have/are currently experiencing project fulfillment as backers.
Try to appreciate that there is little to no 'trolling' happening here. Most of us want to see good projects do well, it helps everyone to have a strong, competitive marketplace, but a high threshold for Crowdfunding has been established.
I you haven't yet you should research Defiance Games as an example of why backers have every reason to be suspicious of the sort of promises and terminology that you are using.
Look at Dreamforge Games for an example of how someone with all his ducks in a row has maintained good will and high quality despite running late on delivery.
Look at Sedition Wars and Gates of Antares to see how being respected and established in the community doesn't overcome a shoddy plan and poor production.
Don't be a martyr, don't be passive aggressive, be open minded and responsive to criticism.
+1... actually +2 after plastictrees got to it first
Too late I think. A first-comer that has already shown what he's made of once things get rough and can't take the heat. I've already did a full analysis in the previous page, I think it's way too late and will be very unpleasantly surprised to see this one get funded. As others mentioned before, other KickStarters have done their math better and they have really struggled, why on earth should this have any better luck given all the math it hasn't done?
@Artemis Black I can fully understand the frustration since we both are part of this Industry and have better knowledge than this aspiring wanna-be manufacturer. Imho however it's up to the backers to decide whether this project is doable or not. I believe (and so do some of my Team members here) that this project will not suceed for a couple of reasons, most important of which is the attitude shown from the creator (and maybe the rest of his group since nobody stepped in to stop him from writting all this nonsense).
I don't directly take it as an insult like you, if he says the Industry (that would also mean us) is greedy and overcharging, then I welcome him to become more competitive. :-D When he finds out however that there are a bunch of additional costs to what he thinks he knows, then I'll be very eager to see his reaction. Which I already know it will start with something like "Unexpected problems have shown up..."
In the meanwhile I think it wiser to get off the PC and finish our morning work, then head off to have a swim since our HQ are but 8km from the sea and it's getting really hot here :-)
I love the art of this game and the initial ideas but the lack of details and attitudes about this are... unpleasant. I do think that a lot of other games that have been better thought out and planned hard hard times funding still so with the little planning done here it would be interesting to see if it funds.
SIDE NOTE- if you look at his earlier posts on the KS, or somewhere he said all the rest of his staff are off till this up and coming Monday. Maybe when they all get back they will see what he has done and correct it? There is still some hope that the others will have a voice of reason to save this project from the way he has handled it. I seems like he has surrounded himself with competent people so I would be surprised if no one did anything.
@Artemis Black I can fully understand the frustration since we both are part of this Industry and have better knowledge than this aspiring wanna-be manufacturer. Imho however it's up to the backers to decide whether this project is doable or not. I believe (and so do some of my Team members here) that this project will not suceed for a couple of reasons, most important of which is the attitude shown from the creator (and maybe the rest of his group since nobody stepped in to stop him from writting all this nonsense).
I don't directly take it as an insult like you, if he says the Industry (that would also mean us) is greedy and overcharging, then I welcome him to become more competitive. :-D When he finds out however that there are a bunch of additional costs to what he thinks he knows, then I'll be very eager to see his reaction. Which I already know it will start with something like "Unexpected problems have shown up..."
In the meanwhile I think it wiser to get off the PC and finish our morning work, then head off to have a swim since our HQ are but 8km from the sea and it's getting really hot here :-)
I think that Shieldwolf is in about as qualified a position as you can get to make comments, with regards to filling the 'plucky young company just getting into plastic 28mm miniatures that have certain aesthetic similarities to another certain wargame' department.
Comments about GW like:
Where do I throw dirt on them? I call them greedy? Thats it. Because in my opinion their deliberate manipulation of their rules and unit prices for the single purpose of driving miniatures sales (not supporting their game), is their guiding light. Money over fun. Profit over good will and brand loyalty.
make the mind boggle a little. It's a business. Of course profit is the main agenda. Just about everybody I know accepts that fact with equanimity. The only thing people disagree on is whether or not their manipulation of the rules/their hobby to drive sales is the best way for them to make a long term profit.
To then follow that up with generalised comments like:
'Looking at the cost of miniatures, manufacturing, and shipping I was astounded to discover how much money miniatures companies were overcharging.
is somewhat insulting to just about every other miniatures company to boot, so I can see Artemis's position. It's directly stating that other companies than GW (the plural was used) are horrendously overcharging, and the implication is that the majority of them are.
But I'm pretty sure that Shieldwolf's Renedra-tooled Savage Orcs didn't come cheap, and nobody volunteered the sculpt for Hasslefree's Fire Wasp vehicle free of charge. Their creators have to live. Accusing them of charging more than their material costs after the model is made in the name of 'profit' (hiss!) is all well and good, but it feels somewhat disingenous. Their creators have to live, and their businesses need capital to grow. Even if Shieldwolf was making £20 of pure profit a box as is stated by the creator of Warprime(which I highly doubt), I'd wager that they have debt from tooling costs, or if that's been cleared, want to build up enough capital to make more new products.
As well as, you know, paying their own mortgages, the sculptors, the artists, and everyone else involved a decent wage.
I liked the artwork, but I think I'll be giving this one a miss. The 'Holier than thou' attitude grates on my nerves a little, and it makes me think the creator has no idea what he's talking about.
So the name WAR PRIME has been an idea I have had in my head for many years. It originally started as a 3rd person Action shooter strategy game.
Two years ago I started playing Warhammer 40K again. While we were doing that one of my friends moved to Arazona. it got me thinking about all the people I use to play with and how I missed playing games with them. So last year I had the notion to make a digital tabletop war-game.
I had spent to much time and money building this universe to just let it go. I looked at my options and thought I would look into how hard it would be to make actual miniatures. Looking at the cost of miniatures, manufacturing, and shipping I was astounded to discover how much money miniatures companies were overcharging.
There are many tabletop miniatures games. There are even many tabletop miniature war-games. But there is only one science fiction 25mm tabletop war game. This game doesn't need to be named.
But without competition to keep them honest and hungry, they have become greedy. Without someone to challenge them they have run roughshod over the hobby and their fan bass. It is time for this to change.
This blog post just screams "i am just trying to save my investment". I would love to know what 25mm wargame he is referring to, and would love to understand how come there is NO competition in this market... Also the amount of spelling mistakes all over the blog, the kickstarter, etc. is astounding for a native speaker.
I liked the artwork, but I think I'll be giving this one a miss. The 'Holier than thou' attitude grates on my nerves a little, and it makes me think the creator has no idea what he's talking about.
This about sums up my position.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
OnePageAnon wrote: [i]There are many tabletop miniatures games. There are even many tabletop miniature war-games. But there is only one science fiction 25mm tabletop war game. This game doesn't need to be named.
I wonder what 25mm science fiction tabletop war game he is referring to...
But without competition to keep them honest and hungry, they have become greedy. Without someone to challenge them they have run roughshod over the hobby and their fan bass. It is time for this to change.
So all the other miniature wargames out there do not count as competition?
It is surprisingly common that people are only aware of GW and 40k. Leaving 40k for some means leaving the hobby entirely. Conversely, coming back into the fold, means exclusively getting back into a GW product.
Less common is the lack of awareness from potential manufacturers and games designers.
Based on what they have written my own opinion on the creator of WarPrime is that his narrow mindedness of the tabletop games market translates to lack of awareness in his other - purported - fields.
Vertrucio wrote: Have to laugh at people still whining about getting their ruler picture, but then having to, *gasp* convert a measurement.
And it's the usual same few posters too.
Ditto
It's simple.
If you want my money a year upfront for your project, you better be willing to do the work. Getting a proper ruler with millimetres for a product shot (without oversized bases) isn't rocket surgery or unreasonable, especially given how fast and loose many manufacturers have played with "28mm" and "32mm" in the last few years.
Obviously, they can't advertise the exact kickstarters that this guy has worked on, that would entail getting permission from those companies etc. I'm hoping that since they have him on board now, they'll be showing some of the same type of stuff later on.
Why? It's the sculptor's CV. When we see things released designed by people who have worked for GW or Rackham (amongst others) there's never secrecy about which projects they have worked on. Might need permission to use images of other companies' physical models, but again that can depend - a link to an artists' online portfolio of work-for-hire isn't unusual either.
Because people can't do what I did and spend 10seconds googling the people involved before investing? I do much mor than that before investing in stock and view backing a Kickstarter as a similar enterprise. I'm not going to just throw money at random people and hope for the best (I did that once....and learned a lesson). Yes, they could have postef the digital artist (who apparently lives in my hometown) but if they were an all there business I would hope they wouldn't use Kickstarter. Heck Mantic kickstarters are examples of how not to run a business and they still sell tons of cheap-quaity crap in their nearly quarterly Kickstarters. Would I lime to see someone do better? Yes but it's hardly the norm on Kickstarter.
I'm not going to back this project but it's not because the creator didn't take a picture of a prototype next to a GW mini or plaster other companies' products all over their page; those are the two things that the creator has done that I agree with from a business perspective.
I literally don't get how anyone can be personally insulted by industry hyperbole as some are in this thread. GW constantly say they're the best on the planet and I haven't seen people act like they rang their doorbell and punched their baby. It's marketing drivel we see time and again everywhere; heck Tom Kirby says people have forgotten about RPGs and Pokemon. It's amatureish self-promotion but personal insults to the owners of small mini businesses it only is if you create that reality for yourself, which apparently some have. Personally, I've had to grow thick skin and I just administer several million in grants and the personnel attached to those funds; if I were a business owner, I think that I would have to have a much larger capacity to shrug off the comments of competitors and upstarts.
Anyway, I'll bow out at this point; I really don't have a dog in this fight (Michael Vick?) and just posted because of the more vitriolic than usual spewing going on in this thread. Maybe I shouldn't have posted, ah well.
Edit:
After posting this, I looked at the KS comments and the creator is quoting from Trollforged's site so this either confirms Trollforge or the creator's being dishonest.
I think that's a fair post, agnosto, and agree that some of the sarcasm in this thread earlier was over the top.
But, I also think this campaign fails on it's own lack of merits... not because people have poked a bit of fun at it. But seeing people point out flaws more respectfully would be good, and would make a better case, imo.
agnosto wrote: Edit:
After posting this, I looked at the KS comments and the creator is quoting from Trollforged's site so this either confirms Trollforge or the creator's being dishonest.
As I posted earlier, they reached out to Trollforged... that is the extent of it, no more, no less. I also think the point is moot since this is unlikely to successfully fund...
RiTides wrote: I think that's a fair post, agnosto, and agree that some of the sarcasm in this thread earlier was over the top.
But, I also think this campaign fails on it's own lack of merits... not because people have poked a bit of fun at it. But seeing people point out flaws more respectfully would be good, and would make a better case, imo.
As I posted earlier, they reached out to Trollforged... that is the extent of it, no more, no less. I also think the point is moot since this is unlikely to successfully fund...
Fair enough and we've seen other Kickstarters come in with grandiose ideas and fall flat only to be reshuffled, lessons learnt and come back. I'm more willing to give these guys the benefit of the doubt than Tony Reidy of Defiance infamy who people still gave money to even after how many management reshuffles during the campaign? I agree that this one comes off as half-baked and will likely fail on its own but then we could both be wrong as I've seen some dodgy KS's get funded (like the aforementioned Defiance).
Mini kickstarters have an uphill battle to begin with; we wargamers are persnickety bunch and there are only a few manufacturers being used out there. Mark with Dreamforge is a great guy and makes an incredible product but he's well over a year behind schedule; we can say it's WGF's fault but it's probably a weak contract as well which would be on his end of things because other, later Kickstarters were being manufactured before his stuff.
I literally don't get how anyone can be personally insulted by industry hyperbole as some are in this thread. GW constantly say they're the best on the planet and I haven't seen people act like they rang their doorbell and punched their baby. It's marketing drivel we see time and again everywhere; heck Tom Kirby says people have forgotten about RPGs and Pokemon. It's amatureish self-promotion but personal insults to the owners of small mini businesses it only is if you create that reality for yourself, which apparently some have. Personally, I've had to grow thick skin and I just administer several million in grants and the personnel attached to those funds; if I were a business owner, I think that I would have to have a much larger capacity to shrug off the comments of competitors and upstarts.
Anyway, I'll bow out at this point; I really don't have a dog in this fight (Michael Vick?) and just posted because of the more vitriolic than usual spewing going on in this thread. Maybe I shouldn't have posted, ah well..
*grin* From my end it's not like I was personally outraged and went telling all my friends. If I'd have seen it in passing on a blog or something I'd have laughed and maybe sent the link to some mates so they could laugh.
But he said it right here in a thread that I was already participating in, doesn't seem too out of order to let him know that a) it's insulting and b) if you're going to insult other people you may want to make sure you have your own ducks in a row first cos at least some of us are going to be sarcastic about them.
I can assure you I didn't lose any sleep over it or anything In fact I'm of the same opinion as you, he has no idea how insulting he was being and it was just an awful attempt at hyperbole and marketing. It beggars belief how someone can kick off a kickstarter like this and be so woefully ignorant about the modern state of the industry so let's hope either he learns fast or the rest of his team do.
agnosto wrote: Edit:
After posting this, I looked at the KS comments and the creator is quoting from Trollforged's site so this either confirms Trollforge or the creator's being dishonest.
RiTides wrote: As I posted earlier, they reached out to Trollforged... that is the extent of it, no more, no less. I also think the point is moot since this is unlikely to successfully fund...
After you reached out to Trollforge had said, there was an update from War Prime on that topic. He could just be saying that but it also does match up since currently Trollforged is busy but their schedule does clear up a bit towards the end of the year.
"Ed asked me NOT to mention their name. So I didn't. A little silly of him to think that the backers wouldn't figure it out, but I kept my word. Our release Date is 1 year from now. July 2015. That gives us more than enough time to get into the que and get our miniatures made." Then later it was stated "I have had a conversation with our planed manufacture. Based on the July 2015 Ship date he sees no issues with being able to get our miniatures made by that date."
agnosto wrote: Because people can't do what I did and spend 10seconds googling the people involved before investing? I do much mor than that before investing in stock and view backing a Kickstarter as a similar enterprise. I'm not going to just throw money at random people and hope for the best (I did that once....and learned a lesson). Yes, they could have postef the digital artist (who apparently lives in my hometown) but if they were an all there business I would hope they wouldn't use Kickstarter. Heck Mantic kickstarters are examples of how not to run a business and they still sell tons of cheap-quaity crap in their nearly quarterly Kickstarters. Would I lime to see someone do better? Yes but it's hardly the norm on Kickstarter.
See, I actually agree with you while disagreeing with you. The fact is that this is less than a "proper" financial investment. No-one really needs more plastic toys, while buying stock or assets, investing, etc are much more serious business. This means that while I'll accept the responsibility to research "proper" investments, I might or might not google some stuff about a miniatures project. If I really can't be bothered doing so, then I'm probably not going to back your kickstarter. It's incumbent on creators to be grown up and serious about their projects and do as much of that work for me as possible to get me interested enough in looking up more of their work. Because if I can't be bothered doing that for a bunch of plastic armymens, then I'm not going to give them my money.
I'm not going to back this project but it's not because the creator didn't take a picture of a prototype next to a GW mini or plaster other companies' products all over their page; those are the two things that the creator has done that I agree with from a business perspective.
I don't believe I saw that being requested in this thread (though it's possible I missed it). It's certainly possible that it was in the comments. Still, there are a great number of companies that have no objection to others using their products for this sort of thing. Mantic, Raging Heroes, Avatars or War, Perry, Warlord, et al. None of which excuses either of the half-arsed ruler shots (which are perfectly acceptable for creators who don't want to use a line-up).
Sure, you might not plaster RH's renders all over your page, which is totally fair enough. But if working with Raging Heroes is part of your artist's CV, then it's perfectly legit to name the project(s) and link to the project pages or the artist's own blog/online portfolio/etc with an "external site, images are from another project" disclaimer. Nothing dodgy about that in any way. There's certainly no need to secret squirrel that kind of information.
After posting this, I looked at the KS comments and the creator is quoting from Trollforged's site so this either confirms Trollforge or the creator's being dishonest.
Azazelx wrote: Sure, you might not plaster RH's renders all over your page, which is totally fair enough. But if working with Raging Heroes is part of your artist's CV, then it's perfectly legit to name the project(s) and link to the project pages or the artist's own blog/online portfolio/etc with an "external site, images are from another project" disclaimer. Nothing dodgy about that in any way. There's certainly no need to secret squirrel that kind of information. .
Yeah, unless there is some sort of NDA in play, there should be no problem at all with mentioning other projects the sculptor has worked on.
See, I actually agree with you while disagreeing with you. The fact is that this is less than a "proper" financial investment. No-one really needs more plastic toys, while buying stock or assets, investing, etc are much more serious business. This means that while I'll accept the responsibility to research "proper" investments, I might or might not google some stuff about a miniatures project. If I really can't be bothered doing so, then I'm probably not going to back your kickstarter. It's incumbent on creators to be grown up and serious about their projects and do as much of that work for me as possible to get me interested enough in looking up more of their work. Because if I can't be bothered doing that for a bunch of plastic armymens, then I'm not going to give them my money.
I'm a bit of a cheapskate even though I have a comfortable income; I don't even donate to charities until after I've done some research on them. My particular kind of OCD isn't always helpful at finding the best deal when I despise the people behind the scenes. I agree with you that they should make it easy to like/back them as possible but we're talking amateur hour here....
I don't believe I saw that being requested in this thread (though it's possible I missed it). It's certainly possible that it was in the comments. Still, there are a great number of companies that have no objection to others using their products for this sort of thing. Mantic, Raging Heroes, Avatars or War, Perry, Warlord, et al. None of which excuses either of the half-arsed ruler shots (which are perfectly acceptable for creators who don't want to use a line-up).
Sure, you might not plaster RH's renders all over your page, which is totally fair enough. But if working with Raging Heroes is part of your artist's CV, then it's perfectly legit to name the project(s) and link to the project pages or the artist's own blog/online portfolio/etc with an "external site, images are from another project" disclaimer. Nothing dodgy about that in any way. There's certainly no need to secret squirrel that kind of information.
I get what you're saying here but I also strongly believe that your product needs to survive or fail on its own merits (or lack thereof). The requests for shots next to GW were on the project forum or something; I had emailed the creator a couple of times and he came off as nice but mentioned repeated requests for comparison shots. I don't think this guy knows of the other companies; he seems laser focused on GW and to him, as someone mentioned earlier, they may be the end-all-be-all of the wargaming hobby. Eh, either way I'm not too fussed but I get where you and others are coming from.
I agree that they could have posted the artist's website with his information; if nothing else, it would give backers an idea of who they're dealing with and whether or not they're competent. Turns out this guy's legit and makes some good stuff. This all just rolls into the other amateurish nonsense that this projects slid into which is another strike against them and shows yet again that they don't really know what they're doing.
Very interesting...
I thought so as well which just solidified my decision even further to not back the project. Well, I did back it for a $1 just in case but they can have my buck I think.
I'm a bit of a cheapskate even though I have a comfortable income; I don't even donate to charities until after I've done some research on them. My particular kind of OCD isn't always helpful at finding the best deal when I despise the people behind the scenes. I agree with you that they should make it easy to like/back them as possible but we're talking amateur hour here....
I'm much the same, but I figure if someone wants my money, they should not only be as upfront as possible but also make it as easy as possible for me to find out who they are and who their talent is. Especially when they'd like my money a year upfront. It's not like it's hard for me to find somewhere else to spend my money, after all...
They need to pique my interest, not just hope I care enough about their random wargaming project that I'm going to Google the names of the creatives with only "been involved in other successful kickstarters" as an impetus.
I don't believe I saw that being requested in this thread (though it's possible I missed it). It's certainly possible that it was in the comments. Still, there are a great number of companies that have no objection to others using their products for this sort of thing. Mantic, Raging Heroes, Avatars or War, Perry, Warlord, et al. None of which excuses either of the half-arsed ruler shots (which are perfectly acceptable for creators who don't want to use a line-up).
Sure, you might not plaster RH's renders all over your page, which is totally fair enough. But if working with Raging Heroes is part of your artist's CV, then it's perfectly legit to name the project(s) and link to the project pages or the artist's own blog/online portfolio/etc with an "external site, images are from another project" disclaimer. Nothing dodgy about that in any way. There's certainly no need to secret squirrel that kind of information.
I get what you're saying here but I also strongly believe that your product needs to survive or fail on its own merits (or lack thereof). The requests for shots next to GW were on the project forum or something; I had emailed the creator a couple of times and he came off as nice but mentioned repeated requests for comparison shots. I don't think this guy knows of the other companies; he seems laser focused on GW and to him, as someone mentioned earlier, they may be the end-all-be-all of the wargaming hobby. Eh, either way I'm not too fussed but I get where you and others are coming from.
I agree that they could have posted the artist's website with his information; if nothing else, it would give backers an idea of who they're dealing with and whether or not they're competent. Turns out this guy's legit and makes some good stuff. This all just rolls into the other amateurish nonsense that this projects slid into which is another strike against them and shows yet again that they don't really know what they're doing.
Again, agreement with you here. The funny thing is that if the 3D sculptor worked on RH, then the answer is staring him right in the face. And at the same time he's got his own CV and that of his co-founded Ben's CV plastered all over the page, yet the Concept artists gets no more than "such as Mage Wars" and the 3D sculptor gets nothing at all...
Not to mention:
There are many tabletop miniatures games. There are even many tabletop miniature war-games. But there is only one science fiction 25mm tabletop war game. This game doesn't need to be named.
But without competition to keep them honest and hungry, they have become greedy. Without someone to challenge them they have run roughshod over the hobby and their fan bass. It is time for this to change.
...so I think you're right on the money with being unfortunately GW-focused/ignorant of the wider industry/market to a fault.
Very interesting...
I thought so as well which just solidified my decision even further to not back the project. Well, I did back it for a $1 just in case but they can have my buck I think.
I get too many random KS updates as it is these days. I don't need more.
I have closed the War Prime Kickstarter. While I believe that we can reach our target goal and beyond, I feel that we would not give you the best product we can. It would not be in your best interest or ours. And I believe we can do better.
I have received many emails of both support and excitement for the project and concern for its success. Its easy to look at disheartening comments in the forums as disparaging or non-supportive. But most of the negative feedback stems from a genuine interest in seeing our success. And real concern that even if we succeed in gaining our funding, we will fail.
After struggling with the decision I feel I made the right choice.
I am confident that by stopping the campaign now. We give ourselves a chance to make some changes for the better. We will take the next few months to address the issues that have been raised and come back stronger and better for the delay.
This is an opportunity for improvement!
I believe in my original goal. Great miniatures for great prices. I believe in the game we are building. Fast simple rules with lots of new ideas. I believe in the universe I am creating. Full of exciting worlds, exotic alien races, great conflicts, larger than life heroes, and a universe full of change.
We are going to take a step back. And return stronger and better for taking a risk. I thank you for the support you showed us and ask that you give us a second chance when we return.
Thank you,
--Eric
Its for the best. I dont even think this needs to be dissected as to why it was canceled as it seems everyone has already pointed it out on this thread. Maybe they can correct there mindset and come back again. Who knows.
Well that was unexpected... i thought that they would at least pull through to funding, what with how much money he claimed to have already put into the project and saying that he had no more time...
Overall i feel that this was treated like a video game kickstarter on their part, where people promise the world with a few lines of text and some concept art just to make a buck (lookin' at you bear simulator).
If the creator is serious about coming back to this project as a miniature wargame i hope he understands what the real problems with the project are (generic universe, boring rules, bad attitude, etc.) instead of focusing on the myriad of other smaller problems that arised (no size, no rules, little clarity on materials, etc.), because even if those smaller problems are solved the project will remain a generic sci-fi game.
insaniak wrote: Good to see that they took the criticism in the spirit with which it was intended.
Here's hoping they can come back with a more solid plan.
Agreed. Wishing the best for them, and I think by canceling earlier they avoid (more) excessive drama and can get some things worked out before trying again.
It is much better to cancel or should we say suspend the project now and they can restart it when they have got more of the necessary preparation work done.
Ok so after reading around 10 pages I think this is my opinion on the whole matter:
Honestly I'm a little disheartened, mainly because I love the concepts of all the races and I liked the idea of having another cheap game under ,my belt, I loved the idea of the robot races more importantly..
However I do think this one game was focussed on GW a bit to much, I know he was not mentioning GW in his blog and all but I think he could have spent his time better elsewhere on his project, and I put the word "his" in italic as I felt he was focussing to much on the gimmick of "we are cheaper than GW" way too much, when he could have been using that time on talking to his backers, maybe expanding his knowledge of his universe to us, his audience, he could have shown us some renders of more of his units from all races, rather than talking about other games..
I wanted to know more about the game "WarPrime" not about being cheaper than "Warhammer 40k"..
I really do hope the designer does come back and I do hope he puts another kickstarter back on, as I really liked the models (to much of everyone else's surprise), but the things I would advice on for the next WarPrime kickstarter is to really do the following:
-Communication and honesty: Please be clear to your audience, afterall you are using their money to fund your game, this does mean that people will not wanting to be taken for a ride around the red light district so to say..
-Focus on your own game: As I have said earlier I wanted to know more about WarPrime not about other games, I wanted to see more concept's and renders for all your races, not telling me about something I don't already know..
-Attitude: Fair enough I do agree that certain posters could be seen as snarky and that can wind anyone up, but you are representing your game and your company, therefore you should have had more of a neutral tone to your responses, if you wanted to use a more intimate vocabulary then make a separate blog, and a separate account on Dakka to talk on a personal level, leave the WarPrime account for news and updates, that's all we needed to know..
-Control: I do feel as when reading up on everything that there was little control over materials need to be gained, and therefore everything seemed too secretive and unstable, I know whilst it is hard to keep everything under control, I do feel as if cracks started to appear on launch day so to speak..
Like I say I'm not being negative for the sake of it, as I really did want WarPrime to be a success, as I really liked the concepts so I really do hope you come back and you start the ball off again with a bang
Also on an unrelated note, I've sat through around 12 pages catching up... Snarky comments are just quite plainly not appreciated and just wasted that time.
Its is fine that you have your opinion, as I like seeing everyone's opinion, however please just state the problems that you have without the snarky tone, and more neutral (as I do most of the time ) as it just grates over and becomes very irritable, please don't be that guy who is a catholic priest with the nickname "the most sarcastic priest in the church" from the television programme Father Ted, cheers.
Also on an unrelated note, I've sat through around 12 pages catching up... Snarky comments are just quite plainly not appreciated and just wasted that time.
Its is fine that you have your opinion, as I like seeing everyone's opinion, however please just state the problems that you have without the snarky tone, and more neutral (as I do most of the time ) as it just grates over and becomes very irritable, please don't be that guy who is a catholic priest with the nickname "the most sarcastic priest in the church" from the television programme Father Ted, cheers.
Snark and sarcasm are basically the two official languages of the internet. Nothing you can can do about it, aside from learning to not let it bother you.
It's worth trying to have a conversation without it, though. I had an influential English teacher whose favorite quote (not of their own making, of course) was: "Sarcasm is the protest of the weak."
It comes to mind every time I'm tempted to be sarcastic. Like I said, she was quite influential but it certainly does the trick to keep me from using sarcasm unnecessarily.
MordorMiniatures wrote: They have to figure out how to NOT 3D print those... I have a 3D printed and it leaves lines in the models (Making paint job looking lumpy)
Industrial 3d printers are slightly better quality than whatever you might have sitting on your desk.
However, removing those lines is simply a part of the process of turning a 3D sculpt into a production miniature. These guys aren't the first company to use 3D sculpting for miniatures.
RiTides wrote: It's worth trying to have a conversation without it, though. I had an influential English teacher whose favorite quote (not of their own making, of course) was: "Sarcasm is the protest of the weak."
It comes to mind every time I'm tempted to be sarcastic. Like I said, she was quite influential but it certainly does the trick to keep me from using sarcasm unnecessarily.
Maybe he'll go away and get the Starcraft license and some people who know what they are doing. I'd love to get some Terran Marines or even Zerg. Then the GW/Blizzard argument could reach new highs of nerd rage.
Medium of Death wrote: Maybe he'll go away and get the Starcraft license and some people who know what they are doing. I'd love to get some Terran Marines or even Zerg. Then the GW/Blizzard argument could reach new highs of nerd rage.
MordorMiniatures wrote: They have to figure out how to NOT 3D print those... I have a 3D printed and it leaves lines in the models (Making paint job looking lumpy)
Industrial 3d printers are slightly better quality than whatever you might have sitting on your desk.
However, removing those lines is simply a part of the process of turning a 3D sculpt into a production miniature. These guys aren't the first company to use 3D sculpting for miniatures.
^^^ This, for a example look at CB Infinity models.
RiTides wrote: It's worth trying to have a conversation without it, though. I had an influential English teacher whose favorite quote (not of their own making, of course) was: "Sarcasm is the protest of the weak."
It comes to mind every time I'm tempted to be sarcastic. Like I said, she was quite influential but it certainly does the trick to keep me from using sarcasm unnecessarily.
She must have loved Shakespeare
Yeah, I always thought that saying, and its many variations, was kind of...weak.
As for War Prime - I look forward to what they look like once they had time to take in the constructive criticism they received.
RiTides wrote: It's worth trying to have a conversation without it, though. I had an influential English teacher whose favorite quote (not of their own making, of course) was: "Sarcasm is the protest of the weak."
Only what's here is more sardonism than sarcasm. And maybe satire. Did she ever impress upon you the power of satire? ( to the Arkell vs. Pressdram ref, BTW) Personally, I think Eric's last 'passionate plea' here deserved at least a bit of snark. His 'once more unto the breach dear friends' speech might've been a little more effective if the nearest soldiers weren't little plastic toy ones.
Oh wait, sorry, restic toy ones. Or were they trollcast ones...?
(Hello, by the way. Yes, I was serious about finding the 'Warprime' name somewhat suspicious right off. I'm not altogether a bad guy - sometimes - and don't always resort to snark right off; but I like to call a spade a spade, point out what I don't like, and have little time for pussyfooting and 'if you can't say anything nice say nothing' attitudes when things are badly wrong.)
As much as I like you guys, you're not Shakespeare . Well done satire is certainly another matter! Just love the quote, and was responding to someone else, didn't mean to offend anyone, etc! I just think you can make a stronger case in some ways without snark (or at least... maybe a little less ).
MordorMiniatures wrote: They have to figure out how to NOT 3D print those... I have a 3D printed and it leaves lines in the models (Making paint job looking lumpy)
Industrial 3d printers are slightly better quality than whatever you might have sitting on your desk.
However, removing those lines is simply a part of the process of turning a 3D sculpt into a production miniature. These guys aren't the first company to use 3D sculpting for miniatures.
^^^ This, for a example look at CB Infinity models.
Agreed, Raging Heroes also primarily (or maybe only) 3d prints masters, and gets stunning results!
RiTides wrote: As much as I like you guys, you're not Shakespeare . Well done satire is certainly another matter! Just love the quote, and was responding to someone else, didn't mean to offend anyone, etc! I just think you can make a stronger case in some ways without snark (or at least... maybe a little less ).
MordorMiniatures wrote: They have to figure out how to NOT 3D print those... I have a 3D printed and it leaves lines in the models (Making paint job looking lumpy)
Industrial 3d printers are slightly better quality than whatever you might have sitting on your desk.
However, removing those lines is simply a part of the process of turning a 3D sculpt into a production miniature. These guys aren't the first company to use 3D sculpting for miniatures.
^^^ This, for a example look at CB Infinity models.
Agreed, Raging Heroes also primarily (or maybe only) 3d prints masters, and gets stunning results!
They had been selling to people for quite a while however, you knew what the quality was. They may atm be overwhelmed by the workload and not managing the pledges as they should, but this is a bad comparison imo. You are trying to balance one company which would like to become a producer with another that is a producer. I find it much easier to place my money on someone who already sells stuff to people (therefore has an established network and figured things out) than another that wants to become a producer and hasn't sold anything to anyone.
I understand this is also what a KS could also be about, helping someone start his business (look at Drakerys recently, they could have never managed this without our support), but people have become more weary and that is a good thing. When known and established producers meet problems in their campaigns and taking irreparable hits to their reputation (Mantic destroying quality, Gates of Antares making history, AoW creating a new definition of "running late", Defiance starting a new era etc) what makes you think unknown people who (as Artemis Black correctly points out) obviously do not know the business are going to succeed?
All this is good imo since both producers and consumers become more responsible. I back all these projects that I see homework done (since I want someone responsible and hard-working taking on the project I've pre-paid for) and avoid all those who have already proved they do not respect the money I'm giving them.
Tbh I can only see this as good for everyone.
Just to be clear, I completely agree with your post! I was only referring to 3d printing as a viable (or not) method for making masters in general, based on the quotes I was responding to.
RiTides wrote: Just to be clear, I completely agree with your post! I was only referring to 3d printing as a viable (or not) method for making masters in general, based on the quotes I was responding to.
*Offering an ice-cold beer*
KS projects are going to be changing in the next couple of years I think...
RiTides wrote: As much as I like you guys, you're not Shakespeare . Well done satire is certainly another matter! Just love the quote, and was responding to someone else, didn't mean to offend anyone, etc! I just think you can make a stronger case in some ways without snark (or at least... maybe a little less ).
Moral of the story is pretty much don't read a thirteen page thread all at once and then bitch at others not posting in the manner that you would have preferred. Especially if you haven't, you know, participated in those thirteen pages but just want to bitch that it made your reading less enjoyable. When you run your own forums, you can tell participants of the manner in which they may post.
Not you, RT, I know - but that poster who triggered this particular tangent. By the way, I know of more than one English teacher who uses sarcasm in entertaining and clever ways. Bluntly put, your teacher was wrong, with a weak argument. Sarcasm is an important part of English wordplay, and I'll easily wager - equally important in other languages..
Medium of Death wrote: Maybe he'll go away and get the Starcraft license and some people who know what they are doing. I'd love to get some Terran Marines or even Zerg. Then the GW/Blizzard argument could reach new highs of nerd rage.
Starcraft tabletop? I'm intrigued!
+1
I don`t get why all these new space marine producers always go for the GW look. Terran Marines are awesome, and I am not aware of anyone else making anything that looks like them. That is exploiting a niche. Trying to build cheaper GW space marines is just stupid. There are many non-SM options of there, it is really cheap to get loads of real GW space marines if you really want some, and very many people already own way to many.
Closing it down now is a good opportunity to learn some lessons, change some things, improve "local knowledge" of the tabletop and miniatures game industry, and come back to do it well.
agnosto wrote: I thought that the basic guys did look more terran marine than GW marine except for the heads.
Totally. That's why I'm hoping they go away and do their research and come back with the StarCraft license. I'd imagine that kickstarter would rake in cash.
Blizzard/Activision would not part with the license. At this point it's not a matter of money, it's already locked up elsewhere or would not be a big enough venture.
And even if it was on the table, they wouldn't part with the license to anyone that would have to make a kickstarter to get it produced. Instead, it'd be something more like X-Wing, a prepainted game from a now very large company that would be able to invest a great deal for a global release.
Looks much better. I'm pretty sure that people will still bug them for scale shots next to GW products even though they specifically tell you the height to eye level.
agnosto wrote: Looks much better. I'm pretty sure that people will still bug them for scale shots next to GW products even though they specifically tell you the height to eye level.
Yes, because since every human being on the planet interprets and processes information in exactly the same way, nobody could ever have a valid reason for asking to be shown rather than told. That's why it's been proven that the best way to teach children is to treat them like interchangeable nonentities and subject them to rote-learning at a uniform and unchanging pace
Seriously though, asking a company that wants people to give them a hefty chunk of cash essentially on faith to spend five minutes putting a handful of models in a row next to a ruler and snapping a quick picture is hardly monstrously unreasonable.
agnosto wrote: Looks much better. I'm pretty sure that people will still bug them for scale shots next to GW products even though they specifically tell you the height to eye level.
Yes, because since every human being on the planet interprets and processes information in exactly the same way, nobody could ever have a valid reason for asking to be shown rather than told. That's why it's been proven that the best way to teach children is to treat them like interchangeable nonentities and subject them to rote-learning at a uniform and unchanging pace
Seriously though, asking a company that wants people to give them a hefty chunk of cash essentially on faith to spend five minutes putting a handful of models in a row next to a ruler and snapping a quick picture is hardly monstrously unreasonable.
Right. Much better that they open themselves up to negative interaction with a company that has proven that they have no problem tying small companies up in lengthy and costly legal battles for daring to even mention the two words Space and Marine in the same sentence much less using images of their actual product without permission.
Look, everyone who has played 40k with models from other companies or even considered it knows that 28mm to eye level is space marine size. If someone is unable to imagine an analog between two products of like size, I'm unsure what enjoyment they derive from a game that heavily involves imagining little army mens firing imaginary ordinance at each other. Wargaming does not equal education. Wargames and RPGs involve a great deal of imagination on the part of participants which is most likely why it's a notch hobby and not as ubiquitous ad computer gaming where you can actually see the army mens shooting each other.
rayphoton wrote: lots of people have put their miniatures next to gw space marines for size comparison with no threat of legal action.
Raging heroes
Dust
Mantic
Shadows of brimstone
I don't think it unreasonable to do comparison shots and its definitely not illegal
IAMNAL so I don't know if it's actionable to do so or not; you're probably right and it's not but that doesn't stop GW from serving up C&D letters as in the case of Spots the Space Marine or claiming in a court of law that they own the rights to skulls, halberds and a host of other common objects and terms. Why open yourself to the hassle? As far as I know, these guys are US based and all of your examples are EU based with the exception of Shadows of Brimstone and they didn't show GW product (at least on the front page where they just showed a comparison shot with a Mantic mini). A C&D gets your Kickstarter shut down in the middle of the pledge period and then you have to relist and hope people come back.
I agree, scale comparisons aren't unreasonable but at least one manufacturer is.
but you will need superglue to stick it together and may find an occasional bubble hole that needs a bit of liquid greenstuff to fill in
So, just like Finecast.
I have trollcast minis, and as much as a finecast comparison is an insult to any other casting medium, it's especially insulting to trollcast. It's sturdy and good to work with (it doesn't flop right over in subarctic temperatures), though it can be brittle in especially thin sections like spear shafts. But Ed at Troll Forged cares a lot about quality casting and what he doesn't know about casting minis could be writ on the back of a stamp (in his case, 'an occasional bubble' definitely =/= 'get half a dozen replacements that are all horribly miscast'); and he's put a lot of work into developing his own particular spincast recipe for trollcast, in addition to doing a lot of casting for a lot of other mini businesses. Last I heard, he's still working on it to iron out that brittleness problem.
but you will need superglue to stick it together and may find an occasional bubble hole that needs a bit of liquid greenstuff to fill in
So, just like Finecast.
I have trollcast minis, and as much as a finecast comparison is an insult to any other casting medium, it's especially insulting to trollcast. It's sturdy and good to work with (it doesn't flop right over in subarctic temperatures), though it can be brittle in especially thin sections like spear shafts. But Ed at Troll Forged cares a lot about quality casting and what he doesn't know about casting minis could be writ on the back of a stamp (in his case, 'an occasional bubble' definitely =/= 'get half a dozen replacements that are all horribly miscast'); and he's put a lot of work into developing his own particular spincast recipe for trollcast, in addition to doing a lot of casting for a lot of other mini businesses. Last I heard, he's still working on it to iron out that brittleness problem.
Well, that's a very glowing statement about Trollcast that does not hold up to the actual castings that have been made in this material. I'm not saying Trollcast is bad, but I have hundreds of trollcast models and virtually all of them have some sort of substantive bubble, defect, or miscast.
Most are not unusable castings (plenty of folks have soldiered through with finecast and restic models), but the mold cavities by and large did not fill 100% on virtually all of the models. As a result, there are details that are only partially cast, such as skulls without the bottom half, missing weapon pommels, elbows, etc. It wasn't an isolated problem, occuring over dozens of castings from dozens of different molds. Ed Forte considered those castings to be an acceptable level of quality, packed them, and shipped them to the client.
It is what it is, you know, and the sample size in my personal case is rather large. I have heard lots of good things about Ed and Trollcast, and I have seen some lovely castings in the material. But to describe Trollcast castings as having an "occasional bubble" is simply not accurate when it comes to the Red Box Games miniatures the company produced. Those castings are absolutely part of "doging a lot of casting for other mini businesses" and bears mentioning since you brought it up.
The red box games casting is over, though, and never to be repeated. Many of those models don't belong and would not come out perfectly in any resin, the features are too small.
I have trollcast models from four different campaigns, and other sculpts come out fine. WarPrime's sculpts have nowhere near the tiny features of RBG models, and should have no problem being done in trollcast (or any resin).
RiTides wrote: The red box games casting is over, though, and never to be repeated. Many of those models don't belong and would not come out perfectly in any resin, the features are too small.
I have trollcast models from four different campaigns, and other sculpts come out fine. WarPrime's sculpts have nowhere near the tiny features of RBG models, and should have no problem being done in trollcast (or any resin).
Sure, except that RBG models come out fine in resin when Valiant casts them. And then there's the fact that Ed took the RBG job, made the molds, delivered those castings, and kept the money. So whatever anyone says, Trollforged bid that job, took it, did all the work except sculpting the models (knowing full well the nature of the RBG line) and delivered objectively less than par quality castings.
Lots of companies are wont to say, "yes but" to prospective customers when the issue of questionable quality results is raised. Doesn't mean those results should be ignored. Just felt I should mention it since the topic came up.
agnosto wrote: Looks much better. I'm pretty sure that people will still bug them for scale shots next to GW products even though they specifically tell you the height to eye level.
Yes, because since every human being on the planet interprets and processes information in exactly the same way, nobody could ever have a valid reason for asking to be shown rather than told. That's why it's been proven that the best way to teach children is to treat them like interchangeable nonentities and subject them to rote-learning at a uniform and unchanging pace
Seriously though, asking a company that wants people to give them a hefty chunk of cash essentially on faith to spend five minutes putting a handful of models in a row next to a ruler and snapping a quick picture is hardly monstrously unreasonable.
Right. Much better that they open themselves up to negative interaction with a company that has proven that they have no problem tying small companies up in lengthy and costly legal battles for daring to even mention the two words Space and Marine in the same sentence much less using images of their actual product without permission.
Look, everyone who has played 40k with models from other companies or even considered it knows that 28mm to eye level is space marine size. If someone is unable to imagine an analog between two products of like size, I'm unsure what enjoyment they derive from a game that heavily involves imagining little army mens firing imaginary ordinance at each other. Wargaming does not equal education. Wargames and RPGs involve a great deal of imagination on the part of participants which is most likely why it's a notch hobby and not as ubiquitous ad computer gaming where you can actually see the army mens shooting each other.
First, the idea that GW would sue someone for including one of their miniatures in a scale comparison pic is ridiculous, even their overtly litigious legal department aren't that stupid especially after the thumping they took during the Chapterhouse case. Your "point" is further undermined by the fact that a few companies have already done this during KS campaigns or on website blogs, and last time I looked they're still trading away, notably bereft of onerous nuisance lawsuits. GW can prevent you from using images they produce, and they can prevent you from using images of their products to imply an official connection between the products, but even the stingiest and narrowest definitions of fair use prevent them from suing you for taking a picture yourself(which you would own the copyright on) which happens to feature one of their products in it.
Second, your petty attempt to imply people who best process information visually rather than verbally or via written text are lacking in imagination aside; these companies want our money, almost certainly as much of it as they can get, so if they can increase the amount of that money they get by spending five minutes to take a photo, why is that a bad idea again? Other than it offending your sense of propriety that they would be indulging us poor, unimaginative proles of course
That's fine, weeble... We can always PM but there's a lot to that story and I'd rather not debate it all in an unrelated thread. Suffice to say I disagree, and we can agree to disagree...
I hope the project launches better this time. I'd like to see the work that should have been done before the last KS get done and then a smooth production and fulfillment process go from there.
Also painting them with photography in mind would probably work well also. The zenithal highlight airbrush technique, followed by gloss varnish and an oil wash and a matte sealer once that's cured almost always photographs beautifully. It's why so many of the more budget/mass production commission painters have adopted the techniques.
Right. Much better that they open themselves up to negative interaction with a company that has proven that they have no problem tying small companies up in lengthy and costly legal battles for daring to even mention the two words Space and Marine in the same sentence much less using images of their actual product without permission.
Look, everyone who has played 40k with models from other companies or even considered it knows that 28mm to eye level is space marine size.
There are ways around it - using a silhouette of a Marine or a Cadian has been done. Using comparison shots of figures from other manufacturers...
This project can be sugar-coated as much as they like, this is a bunch of amateur haters that make nothing original and simply want to copy Games-Workshop to make a buck! I'm no GW fan boy, but let's call a spade a spade here.
This "Holly Crusade" of theirs is something that I will certainly not be taking part in, this project in order to succeed needs other creators (professionals preferably) and 6 months additional planning. Not falling back when it is obvious the KS will fail and "regrouping" 3 weeks later playing Mother Teresa like nothing has happened to launch give or take almost everything else shown before! (I will not even be starting on the ruler issue).... Launching September you say? Lol, go figure...
PS. If you scroll down at the bottom of page 10 of this thread, you'll see a whole bunch of mistakes I marked out for these guys. It's really takes effort to fail so fast and so much!
I read your responses, and honestly - they aren't all very relevant. Dripping with bias and assumptions. I don't know where it stems from, but you are entitled to your opinion - just don't assume it carries much weight.
I'd like to see the kickstarter continue. There are some logistical questions that need answering of course, but I don't think imagination or artistic drive is lacking on their part. A good project manager (versed in dealing with injection companies and/or Asian distribution) would work wonders. Even the best of plans can go awry, hence the volatile nature of kickstarters/crowdsourcing in general.
Sirio wrote: This project can be sugar-coated as much as they like, this is a bunch of amateur haters that make nothing original and simply want to copy Games-Workshop to make a buck! I'm no GW fan boy, but let's call a spade a spade here.
This "Holly Crusade" of theirs is something that I will certainly not be taking part in, this project in order to succeed needs other creators (professionals preferably) and 6 months additional planning. Not falling back when it is obvious the KS will fail and "regrouping" 3 weeks later playing Mother Teresa like nothing has happened to launch give or take almost everything else shown before! (I will not even be starting on the ruler issue).... Launching September you say? Lol, go figure...
PS. If you scroll down at the bottom of page 10 of this thread, you'll see a whole bunch of mistakes I marked out for these guys. It's really takes effort to fail so fast and so much!
U mad Bro?
Constructive criticism aside, your making a mountain out of a molehill. On the whole, they found issue with the project, and pulled it before it went over the top in an alternate direction then it was supposed to, Why not just tell them good idea to pull back, before they disappointed ALOT of potential customers?
Issues, Sure they are there, that's why they pulled the project.
Call it a day and move on. Don't lambast them for doing something smart for the greater good of the game project as a whole. Sometimes, you just have to know when to fold them.
I read your responses, and honestly - they aren't all very relevant. Really? What would the irrelevant part be? Dripping with bias and assumptions.. Actually I don't see any assumptions at all. All facts that proved me right, like the fact this KS should have never been launched. Few days later -surprise surprise- KS gets cancelled. Wonder why... I don't know where it stems from, I got carried away, you are right, shouldn't have wasted my time but you are entitled to your opinion - just don't assume it carries much weight. OK. Just note down it has proved me right so far.
I'd like to see the kickstarter continue. I think at this point that so would I! Just to be able to say "I told you so" later on I guess but I might even prefer not seeing another KS fail, after a while it tires you out, lol! There are some logistical questions that need answering of course, but I don't think imagination or artistic drive is lacking on their part. A good project manager (versed in dealing with injection companies and/or Asian distribution) would work wonders. I agree. How unfortunate these guys have none. Even the best of plans can go awry, hence the volatile nature of kickstarters/crowdsourcing in general.I agree. And I think you'll agree with me that this KS is not exactly the definition of a "best plan". Quickly and hastily launched, insulting every other company, coming out of nowhere, using a ruler in a legendary wrong way (lol!!!), coming out of the 80's, being the saviour of the gaming community and... oh, the list goes on and on...
U mad Bro? Constructive criticism aside, your making a mountain out of a molehill. On the whole, they found issue with the project, and pulled it before it went over the top in an alternate direction then it was supposed to, Why not just tell them good idea to pull back, before they disappointed ALOT of potential customers?
Issues, Sure they are there, that's why they pulled the project.
Call it a day and move on. Don't lambast them for doing something smart for the greater good of the game project as a whole. Sometimes, you just have to know when to fold them.
+1
I think I'll do that, I was indeed carried away.
RiTides wrote: The red box games casting is over, though, and never to be repeated. Many of those models don't belong and would not come out perfectly in any resin, the features are too small.
I have trollcast models from four different campaigns, and other sculpts come out fine. WarPrime's sculpts have nowhere near the tiny features of RBG models, and should have no problem being done in trollcast (or any resin).
Obviously you haven't seen our resin nor dealt with our Casting Team. I challenge you to speak with any manufacturer to get his/her written permission (in this case Red Box but we accept any mini you like), send us the mini of your choosing and we'll cast it. There is nothing we cannot cast flawlessly.
Just to be clear, I wasn't criticizing Tre's sculpts- I was saying, they are so finely done, that I think they are more suited to metal in some ways, just like Infinity models. Wehrkind, who posts on Dakka, is local to me and fantastic at resin casting, and there are some things (long thin features) that just are better in metal, imo. I've seen him try out all sorts of things in this regard.
So, it's actually a compliment in the sense that Tre's sculpts are so insanely detailed... I would actually say similarly about Roberto Chaudon's sculpts for the Mierce Miniatures agriosavra that I just got. They're resin, but because their features are so tiny I feel like I would have preferred them in metal.
That's what I meant... sorry for any miscommunication. I'll be making an article showing the casts I have in Trollcast from 4 different campaigns, and hopefully that will help illustrate both it's strengths and weaknesses. At the insanely low price point it comes at (particularly compared to hand cast resin) you're not going to have boutique resin quality in every cast, imo... but it holds detail fantastically well and the RBG sculpts I received in it were of great quality, as well as the sculpts from other campaigns. The figure on the top right of the picture I linked to simply has extremely fine features and thus was quite fragile, but the sculpt and cast I received were both excellent.
Sorry if it sounded like I was having a go at Tre- I definitely was not intending to. I was simply saying, his sculpts are really finely-featured, and at the same time, I think trollcast is an excellent material that works well for many things, but like any resin is going to struggle most with really fine features that will be more fragile in resin than in metal simply due to the material properties.
No offense taken RiTides and I do not mean to sound as I am having a go either. Ed has refined his process a LONG way since making my molds 2 years ago and even back then it was more suited to larger bulkier casts anyway as the material itself does not have any weight to help it cast into thin cavities.
Ah, I'm glad and again sorry that I was rather clumsy with expressing what I meant as a more general idea above. I know this was tough for all involved, but in the end I think both Trollforged and RBG are in great positions- RBG about to launch a new line, and Trollforged doing casting for a number of different campaigns. It was a rough road to travel for all but it is fantastic to see everyone coming out fine on the other side!
Sorry if it sounded like I was having a go at Tre- I definitely was not intending to. I was simply saying, his sculpts are really finely-featured, and at the same time, I think trollcast is an excellent material that works well for many things, but like any resin is going to struggle most with really fine features that will be more fragile in resin than in metal simply due to the material properties.
And this is an important property of the Trollcast material to understand.
Agreed, weeble! A lot of folks have wondered about trollcast, and while there are pics scattered online I have been intending to make an article up showing both it's strengths and weaknesses, but just hadn't gotten to it yet. So, I'll try to actually get on that hopefully this weekend.
In general, folks are so much more informed about casting and materials than they ever were before- there's obviously been a bit of a backlash about PVC as people found out more about it, and a desire to see more things done in HIPS (high impact polystyrene). However, for most small miniatures companies this is totally impractical, so assuming they don't want to risk PVC due to it's pitfalls, they are left with hand-cast resin, or metal. Trollcast is unique in that it is the only process using spincast resin that I know of currently, and has the potential to bridge that gap between boutique resin and something that can be cheaper and more mass produced. But seeing more information and knowledge about it is something that I think would be very Very good, as while there are a number of companies that are having things made in the material, it hasn't yet seen wide enough release for people to know what to expect.
So, basically stay tuned on this front! I'm wondering now if I can talk Ed into doing a video of some of it, and obviously I'll make my own article with pictures of the casts that I have in the material.
RiTides wrote: Trollcast is unique in that it is the only process using spincast resin...
Just to clarify Trollcast is a spincast plastic. It is a combination of high impact polystyrene and resin(?) but the mix is closer to plastic than resin. That is what makes it less expensive because of the mix. Of course technically plastic is a type of resin but when we say resin and plastic, they tend to mean different things to people in terms of miniatures.
Resin can and is able to be spincast fine but costwise it is still more expensive than metal and produces less miniatures per mold. The vents are also cut slightly different when you create a spincast mold for resin. Depending on the material of your mold, a metal spincast mold can last for about 400 spins before deteriorating. A resin mold would last for about 200 spins before deteriorating. The cost also increases for resin spincasting because any bad results are lost, unlike metal where you can just melt them back down. That is resin though, not Trollcast.
RiTides wrote: Just to be clear, I wasn't criticizing Tre's sculpts- I was saying, they are so finely done, that I think they are more suited to metal in some ways, just like Infinity models. Wehrkind, who posts on Dakka, is local to me and fantastic at resin casting, and there are some things (long thin features) that just are better in metal, imo. I've seen him try out all sorts of things in this regard.
So, it's actually a compliment in the sense that Tre's sculpts are so insanely detailed... I would actually say similarly about Roberto Chaudon's sculpts for the Mierce Miniatures agriosavra that I just got. They're resin, but because their features are so tiny I feel like I would have preferred them in metal.
That's what I meant... sorry for any miscommunication. I'll be making an article showing the casts I have in Trollcast from 4 different campaigns, and hopefully that will help illustrate both it's strengths and weaknesses. At the insanely low price point it comes at (particularly compared to hand cast resin) you're not going to have boutique resin quality in every cast, imo... but it holds detail fantastically well and the RBG sculpts I received in it were of great quality, as well as the sculpts from other campaigns. The figure on the top right of the picture I linked to simply has extremely fine features and thus was quite fragile, but the sculpt and cast I received were both excellent.
Sorry if it sounded like I was having a go at Tre- I definitely was not intending to. I was simply saying, his sculpts are really finely-featured, and at the same time, I think trollcast is an excellent material that works well for many things, but like any resin is going to struggle most with really fine features that will be more fragile in resin than in metal simply due to the material properties.
(OK!) I had gotten it wrong with what you had wrote prior to this, with the above statement you've explained it in full. I don't agree with the properties of endurance for metal vs resin, I've seen metal minis fall and go into a thousand pieces, something that is unlikely to happen with more resilient ultra-quality resin instead. There are other reasons for which some manufacturers still use metal over resin but I'll stop here since this is about Warprime and I wouldn't like to derail the topic. :-)
RiTides wrote: Trollcast is unique in that it is the only process using spincast resin...
Just to clarify Trollcast is a spincast plastic. It is a combination of high impact polystyrene and resin(?) but the mix is closer to plastic than resin. That is what makes it less expensive because of the mix. Of course technically plastic is a type of resin but when we say resin and plastic, they tend to mean different things to people in terms of miniatures.
Resin can and is able to be spincast fine but costwise it is still more expensive than metal and produces less miniatures per mold. The vents are also cut slightly different when you create a spincast mold for resin. Depending on the material of your mold, a metal spincast mold can last for about 400 spins before deteriorating. A resin mold would last for about 200 spins before deteriorating. The cost also increases for resin spincasting because any bad results are lost, unlike metal where you can just melt them back down. That is resin though, not Trollcast.
One limitation with Trollcast, so far as I understand, is that your molds only work with Trollcast, can only be made by Troll Forged, and can only be spun by Troll Forged. No matter what, you are locked into one supplier, ever, unless you use a different material. This carries certain risks in any business.
With metal casting, you can get your molds back, send them to a different service, cast them yourself, etc. Molds normally aren't very expensive though.
weeble1000 wrote: One limitation with Trollcast, so far as I understand, is that your molds only work with Trollcast, can only be made by Troll Forged, and can only be spun by Troll Forged. No matter what, you are locked into one supplier, ever, unless you use a different material. This carries certain risks in any business.
With metal casting, you can get your molds back, send them to a different service, cast them yourself, etc. Molds normally aren't very expensive though.
That is pretty much correct. Molds, at least with spincast molds, are usually designed and created to work with one material. You wouldn't use a metal disc mold and spincast resin with it and you wouldn't use a resin disc mold and spin cast metal with it. The same is said for Trollcast since it isn't exclusive and they hold the recipe to the mix, there is not anyone else that could use the mold. Fortunately though it isn't too huge a risk when it comes miniatures though. If they were injection metal molds, that would be different but given the lifespan of a spincast mold you would just have to find a new supplier and material (otherwords produce other miniatures using metal or resin instead of Trollcast).
agnosto wrote: Eww. Restic. I will never again intentionally buy a product that literally requires time to fix more than making my own sculpt would take.
And I think someone pointed this out to me before so I'll apologize but I don't see a difference. Resin plus plastic is mixed and forced into a mold. I'm an ignorant consumer and when you describe a product that sounds eerily familiar to the material Mantic uses for their crap product, I now take my money elsewhere.
agnosto wrote: And I think someone pointed this out to me before so I'll apologize but I don't see a difference. Resin plus plastic is mixed and forced into a mold. I'm an ignorant consumer and when you describe a product that sounds eerily familiar to the material Mantic uses for their crap product, I now take my money elsewhere.
For the record companies have their own recipes and mixes. They can all sound similar and familiar but they have different properties. Some have better viscosity and bonding suited for spin casting, while others work better for injection molding. It isn't like there is one mix, one recipe that everyone uses. Even with resin there are different types of resin with different applications and properties.
One way to look at is to take chocolate chip cookies as an example. Not all chocolate chip cookies in the cookie isle taste the same. They have similar ingredients and some even have the exact same ingredients but that doesn't make them the same. The process that they use to create them is dependent on the quality and results.
Just because you have an experience with 'one company' using what sounds like a similar product or material, shouldn't make you assume another company is the same material or quality. There are plenty of examples to be able to look at though that can be used for comparison for every company. Now if it was the same experience, with the same company using the same materials then that would be a different story.
Thanks for the information. So you're both saying that trollcast is a fine material and whatever bugs that were mentioned earlier have been worked out (bubbles, miscasts, etc)? I must say that I'm leery about anything except hard plastic after my experience with Mantic (though they proved that they could mess even that up with the men at arms).
Would you say that the company that produces trollcast has improved their quality controls since the issues mentioned earliet?
agnosto wrote: Thanks for the information. So you're both saying that trollcast is a fine material and whatever bugs that were mentioned earlier have been worked out (bubbles, miscasts, etc)? I must say that I'm leery about anything except hard plastic after my experience with Mantic (though they proved that they could mess even that up with the men at arms).
Would you say that the company that produces trollcast has improved their quality controls since the issues mentioned earliet?
I will say like anything mistakes can happen but I honestly haven't had any issues. I haven't bought from a company that I've gotten everything 100% perfect. It doesn't matter if it is resin or hard plastic, you will have some that sometimes have bubbles or issues. But I have always been happy with Trollcast products.
Don't just take my word for it though, you can do some searching on google on various forums to find people talking about it. It isn't too hard to find examples, reviews of trollcast material out there. You can also look at Troll Forged , Assimilation Aliens and Red Box Games.
Honestly if War Prime uses Trollforge I would be more likely to back, then if they use some unknown which was one of the reasons I pulled out because they weren't specific or knowledgeable enough to convince me they had the full plan. I've had some dealings with Ed and he is a pretty stand up guy.
Did you coin the term "restic"? If not, I don't think it's your place to declare that its use as a general term for non-metal, non-HIPS/ABS, non urethane resin materials is incorrect. If you want a term for PVC specifically, we've already got one: PVC.
agnosto wrote: Thanks for the information. So you're both saying that trollcast is a fine material and whatever bugs that were mentioned earlier have been worked out (bubbles, miscasts, etc)? I must say that I'm leery about anything except hard plastic after my experience with Mantic (though they proved that they could mess even that up with the men at arms).
Would you say that the company that produces trollcast has improved their quality controls since the issues mentioned earliet?
I will say like anything mistakes can happen but I honestly haven't had any issues. I haven't bought from a company that I've gotten everything 100% perfect. It doesn't matter if it is resin or hard plastic, you will have some that sometimes have bubbles or issues. But I have always been happy with Trollcast products.
Don't just take my word for it though, you can do some searching on google on various forums to find people talking about it. It isn't too hard to find examples, reviews of trollcast material out there. You can also look at Troll Forged , Assimilation Aliens and Red Box Games.
Honestly if War Prime uses Trollforge I would be more likely to back, then if they use some unknown which was one of the reasons I pulled out because they weren't specific or knowledgeable enough to convince me they had the full plan. I've had some dealings with Ed and he is a pretty stand up guy.
Thanks for the info. I suppose that I'll perform due diligence prior to backing this one.
What scale is that? 18-20mm? Maybe 22mm?
I don't understand, they said they want to make cheaper minis for 40K, why on eatrh have they downscaled their minis that much?
Unless whoever owns that hand has very slender fingers...
Sirio wrote:What scale is that? 18-20mm? Maybe 22mm?
I don't understand, they said they want to make cheaper minis for 40K, why on eatrh have they downscaled their minis that much?
Sirio wrote: What scale is that? 18-20mm? Maybe 22mm?
I don't understand, they said they want to make cheaper minis for 40K, why on eatrh have they downscaled their minis that much?
Uh... what?
Unless that hand belongs to a child, those guys are at least 40mm tall.
Time for Hands and Model photo galleries! Everyone get in on it!
Spoiler:
And for scale size:
Edit: Geez, those photos are big, but it looks to me that unless those hands are small the standing ones are a little under 40mm at the top of their heads.
@insaniak You are right, what I should've written was 38-40mm and not 18-20,22mm!
@Kilkrazy tahnks for posting these! So you would say these Warprime figs are about 6mm larger than the current 40K? Or are they not doing 40K clones anymore? Another memorable measuring moment for the warprime folk, lol, this time it's about measuring finger width... (I think these guys trying to launch this KS either do this intentionally or haven't got a clue what they oughtta be doing)
If I was in the market for these (and I'm not really), I'd be a bit disappointed at the square hole joint for the arms - it means that there's no variation available in the pose of each mini - unless the arms have been really well designed to work with each torso in which case the variation would still be limited.
They don't look *bad* figures, but they look a bit of a backwards step in terms of design, towards those old GW 'snap fit' marines - multipart just for ease of casting, not for poseability.
One of the problems here is that WarPrime guy isn't really a miniatures guy - and it's showing. Same issue that other upcoming kickstarter has that showed off their videogame render to get us excited about their miniature.
Of course, none of that really explains away the proportions, odd stances or giant WWI knapsack packs over the crotches on those prototype figures above.
Other than the bizarre long torso/short legs thing, I think the only other thing that really bothers me is the "Darth Vader wearing a baseball cap" look to the helmets.
Sirio wrote: @insaniak You are right, what I should've written was 38-40mm and not 18-20,22mm!
@Kilkrazy tahnks for posting these! So you would say these Warprime figs are about 6mm larger than the current 40K? Or are they not doing 40K clones anymore? Another memorable measuring moment for the warprime folk, lol, this time it's about measuring finger width... (I think these guys trying to launch this KS either do this intentionally or haven't got a clue what they oughtta be doing)
The SMs are 29mm from the eye hole to bottom of the foot -- the traditional measurement of a wargame figure. Of course they are in funky dance fight poses and if standing to attention would be a few mm taller. SMs are supposed to be tall, of course, and often reach eight feet or more in the fullness of time.
I get a feeling that my fingers are a bit fatter than the Warprime guys, and I think his figures are probably pretty near 28mm scale.
Well I hope they are close enough to Infinity scale...
*sigh* Is it too much to ask someone to do heads or full miniatures like these?
Or in that kind of vein. No WWII German styled helmets please, there are tons of ones like that already, more modern helmet style like the first picture...
Maybe they had the masters made bigger to compensate for shrinkage? Still doesn't explain the torso length, but it might be possible that's all there is to it.
And for the square peg... there's a hobby knife for that. If it's a skirmish game, they might not need that much variety anyway.
)
) as it just grates over and becomes very irritable, please don't be that guy who is a catholic priest with the nickname "the most sarcastic priest in the church" from the television programme Father Ted, cheers.
It's sturdy and good to work with (it doesn't flop right over in subarctic temperatures), though it can be brittle in especially thin sections like spear shafts. But Ed at Troll Forged cares a lot about quality casting and what he doesn't know about casting minis could be writ on the back of a stamp (in his case, 'an occasional bubble' definitely =/= 'get half a dozen replacements that are all horribly miscast'); and he's put a lot of work into developing his own particular spincast recipe for trollcast, in addition to doing a lot of casting for a lot of other mini businesses. Last I heard, he's still working on it to iron out that brittleness problem.
and again sorry that I was rather clumsy with expressing what I meant as a more general idea above. I know this was tough for all involved, but in the end I think both Trollforged and RBG are in great positions- RBG about to launch a new line, and Trollforged doing casting for a number of different campaigns. It was a rough road to travel for all but it is fantastic to see everyone coming out fine on the other side!
(I think these guys trying to launch this 
