Tiger9gamer wrote: isn't there an FOC in the latest campaign that allows units to re-roll 1's on reanimation rolls? cause if so that would be nasty with Wraiths.
well, time to hope that the necron players are sportsmen and don't bring too many.
Luckly, if you are in that FOC-you are not in the decurion or even the small formation-so no RP wraiths.
Ah, didn't catch that. So only everything else is annoying! great =D
Best strategy is the strongest strategy in 7th anyway. MSU, let those 258pt units kill 35-70pt units one at a time starting turn 2 soonest. Without obsec you will just beet them on objectives, why waste energy on the wraiths. Alternatively most armies have hard counters which I list earlier that can at least tarpit them all game. Wraiths are a strong unit but they are far from OP, very far.
PanzerLeader wrote: FYI, if you run the formation on its own the RP roll is only a 5+. To get the 4+ you have to be part of a Decurion Detachment to gain its command benefit. Which makes spamming much harder after you pay the RL tax.
If by "Tax" you mean 154 points... which is the extra immortal and tomb blade units combined cost, after accounting for requred HQ and 2 troops....
The minimum cost of a RL with 0 upgrades is 479 points. Decently kitted with transports it'll weigh in at 800-900 points. Even if you wanted max Canoptek Harvests, at 230 points each you can get a total of 5 minimum sized formations into an 1850 list if you buy no upgrades on your RL. That'll give you 15 wraiths, 15 scarabs, 5 spiders, 1 overlord, 20 warriors, 5 immortals and 3 tomb blades with ~220 points to go. It's just not a very good army at that point. You lose all the things that made the old wraithwing great, like ranged threats from ABs and Night Scythes plus more wraiths.
You are absolutely correct on all your points there.
However, my point was you are not paying much of a tax for the Reclmamation legion, as you are required to have a HQ and 2 troops for any CAD. So you are only paying a real tax of 154 points.
I don't think massed Wraiths will be the way to go with the Decurion myself. I feel you want to maximize the the use of the other formations.
If you want to spam pure Wraiths, you are better off taking the CAD route, since you will be able to cut more points by loosing the Spyder and Scarabs.
A 154 point real tax for 8 not so hot models that constitute 8.3% of your points at 1850, making it a significant investment---especially when you start discussing the opportunity cost of paying the RL tax. In a CAD, those 154 points represent either a Night Scythe or a Ghost Ark for one of your Troop choices or represent an annihilation barge. Depending on your local meta and the average points you play at, those 154 points can represent an even bigger thorn in your side. Imagine playing mostly 1500 point games and having to spend 10+% of your points on 5 immortals and 3 tomb blades.
Is everyone here ignoring the fact that the unit comes with it's own nifty tarpit, by turn 2 you should have 4 to 5 Scarab Bases, Scarabs are fearless and will have the 4+ save from RP, and have a 6+ armour.
Hollismason wrote: Is everyone here ignoring the fact that the unit comes with it's own nifty tarpit, by turn 2 you should have 4 to 5 Scarab Bases, Scarabs are fearless and will have the 4+ save from RP, and have a 6+ armour.
That's not a useless unit.
Not only that they are still excellent objective grabbers for being fast little buggers that can conga line to the spiders that can hide relatively well.
Wraiths in CAD In a standard CAD they only get their standard 3+/3++
Wraiths in CAD with formation 3+/3++
With a 5+ RP(FNP) when within 6" of the spyder, but only after the necron turn commences. Can someone clarify (my dex is in da post!), does the buff apply as long as they are within the 6" or does it apply at the start of the turn? IE I start within 6" gain RP, move and charge out of 6" do I continue to have RP?
Wraiths in decursion as formation 3+/3++
with a 5+ improved to a 4+ when within 6" of spyder but only after necron turn commences.
Assuming wraiths start on the deployment line, as well as the spyder, necron first turn, spyder moves 6" + runs 4" giving a 16"edge to the buff, wraiths move 12"+4" so turn 1 are at the edge of buff area. Turn 2, unless the wraiths lose the buff when leaving the area they will likely have it turn 2 if the spyder is advancing. However, this is assuming they do advance the spyder, which I dont think is certain. So if they hide the spyder you can be pretty sure they will start the wraiths in the buff area, but after turn 1, they will certainly be outside the area if playing aggressive. thus losing RP altogether along with the bonus. So now they are just 3+/3++.
What I gather from this is baiting seems like a solid tactic. Most gauss is 24" right, so in general necrons typically are a mid ranged army from my perspective, yes they do ranged, but not like they used to with wraithwing and the Dlords and Anni Barge. I would personally actually hang back I think, make the necron player decide, do they bring the wraiths forward along with the spyder and open the spyder to shooting? or do they bring wraiths forward alone? as once RP is gone, weight of fire is clearly a strong tactic. If they conga, then they are susceptible to a tarpit, I mean a conga will mean 1-2 will be well out of combat range, thus reducing potency by 1/3 atleast. I generally think you can make the wraiths move forward as you move around the edge of the board attempting to move counter to their moves.
Like Red said, its probably worth ignoring and tarpitting and then getting some mission VPs or moving on to the rest of the list.
PanzerLeader wrote: FYI, if you run the formation on its own the RP roll is only a 5+. To get the 4+ you have to be part of a Decurion Detachment to gain its command benefit. Which makes spamming much harder after you pay the RL tax.
If by "Tax" you mean 154 points... which is the extra immortal and tomb blade units combined cost, after accounting for requred HQ and 2 troops....
The minimum cost of a RL with 0 upgrades is 479 points. Decently kitted with transports it'll weigh in at 800-900 points. Even if you wanted max Canoptek Harvests, at 230 points each you can get a total of 5 minimum sized formations into an 1850 list if you buy no upgrades on your RL. That'll give you 15 wraiths, 15 scarabs, 5 spiders, 1 overlord, 20 warriors, 5 immortals and 3 tomb blades with ~220 points to go. It's just not a very good army at that point. You lose all the things that made the old wraithwing great, like ranged threats from ABs and Night Scythes plus more wraiths.
You are absolutely correct on all your points there.
However, my point was you are not paying much of a tax for the Reclmamation legion, as you are required to have a HQ and 2 troops for any CAD. So you are only paying a real tax of 154 points.
I don't think massed Wraiths will be the way to go with the Decurion myself. I feel you want to maximize the the use of the other formations.
If you want to spam pure Wraiths, you are better off taking the CAD route, since you will be able to cut more points by loosing the Spyder and Scarabs.
A 154 point real tax for 8 not so hot models that constitute 8.3% of your points at 1850, making it a significant investment---especially when you start discussing the opportunity cost of paying the RL tax. In a CAD, those 154 points represent either a Night Scythe or a Ghost Ark for one of your Troop choices or represent an annihilation barge. Depending on your local meta and the average points you play at, those 154 points can represent an even bigger thorn in your side. Imagine playing mostly 1500 point games and having to spend 10+% of your points on 5 immortals and 3 tomb blades.
Are they really that bad now though? Tomb Blades are actually pretty good now. They're cheaper, they're upgrades are cheaper, and they are a lot more durable in a Decurion.
Immortals are more durable, but there is not much going on there. In the Decurion, at least I feel like my troops are actually now contributing. Before, they were just a tax for getting Night Scythes and/or Ghost Arks
The 4+ Army Wide Bonus has paid Dividends for me, so far. I see it as worth it, if you are running a lot of Non-canoptek units.
As I said in my post before, if you are just going to spam 15 wraiths, some nightscythes and Abarges, then it's not worth it. I don't see this as being competitive anymore though, so more power to you.
Mathematically, the Decurion will pay for it's "Tax" in a game pretty easy, if you are running enough units that use RP.
By the way, the range for the Canoptek harvest bonus is 12' not six Solar.
Everyone is going nuts over the wraith formation but I think that CAD wraiths (with whips) backed by the destroyer formation is what you should watch out for.
I know this is a thread about the wraiths but your probably doing yourself a disservice to put the wraiths in a bubble. Spamming canoptek harvest? why? have you not looked at the rest of the codex. Lots of scary units. It sounds like this post started off of (accurate) rumors and people just got stuck on the durability.
How come when you see the issue as being that the unit is super durable your reaction is to figure out how to blow it up? Arnt you kinda playing to its strengths?
Wraiths have a lot of things going for them but its not like its easy to insert a GOOD cc unit into 40k. You have to be fast and you have to be durable. Wraiths are pretty fast and incredibly durable. I5 and S6 are nice (for zombie robots) but its not like they are murdering their way out of (many) combats. They just don't die (necrons) and kill in an average(ish) manner.
The flayed ones are more killy for 1/3 of the price. That other 2/3 is you paying for being able to get there.
There has been a resurgence of cc units/armies recently. Wraiths are just different in that the answer isn't to just turn them into a crater. I know the answer has always been pewpew the last few editions but theres got to be other tactics. MSU, tarpits, board control, area denial, other stuff..
My point (there was a point?) is that if your worried about blowing up a unit that is designed to not be blown up, your doing it wrong.
My answer to wraiths would be the same as to whatever other cheese-spam-broke list out there, maelstrom it out.
Cauthon wrote: Everyone is going nuts over the wraith formation but I think that CAD wraiths (with whips) backed by the destroyer formation is what you should watch out for.
I know this is a thread about the wraiths but your probably doing yourself a disservice to put the wraiths in a bubble. Spamming canoptek harvest? why? have you not looked at the rest of the codex. Lots of scary units. It sounds like this post started off of (accurate) rumors and people just got stuck on the durability.
How come when you see the issue as being that the unit is super durable your reaction is to figure out how to blow it up? Arnt you kinda playing to its strengths?
Wraiths have a lot of things going for them but its not like its easy to insert a GOOD cc unit into 40k. You have to be fast and you have to be durable. Wraiths are pretty fast and incredibly durable. I5 and S6 are nice (for zombie robots) but its not like they are murdering their way out of (many) combats. They just don't die (necrons) and kill in an average(ish) manner.
The flayed ones are more killy for 1/3 of the price. That other 2/3 is you paying for being able to get there.
There has been a resurgence of cc units/armies recently. Wraiths are just different in that the answer isn't to just turn them into a crater. I know the answer has always been pewpew the last few editions but theres got to be other tactics. MSU, tarpits, board control, area denial, other stuff..
My point (there was a point?) is that if your worried about blowing up a unit that is designed to not be blown up, your doing it wrong.
My answer to wraiths would be the same as to whatever other cheese-spam-broke list out there, maelstrom it out.
I think.
You know what wraiths are useless at??? Helping against psykers/summoning/ FMC Spam. Some of the top armies can just ignore them and outmaneuver them. Eldar can move there serpents around them and just keep shooting them. There is a reason wraith spam kind of died off. It is because they are pretty easy to deal with these days. Even at T5 they just are not fast enough to reach some of the shooty units out there and they cant touch flyers... that is potentially 750pts of your army milling around the board with nothing to do.
Enlighten me what unit out there is too fast for beasts that liturally ignores any and all obstructions in its path?
WS are not faster than that. nor can they "sit back and shoot" as they really can't kill the wraiths anyway.
FMC are a non-issue, as the wariths will just camp objectives and the FMC will never, ever, EVER manage to get them off these.
Psykers? sure the wraiths can handle them. most psykers cant touch wraiths anyway, and any land-based psyker will find himself eaten once they arrive, MCs included.
Wraiths in CAD are all fun and games, wraiths in decurion are flying rodent gak crazy.
BoomWolf wrote: Enlighten me what unit out there is too fast for beasts that liturally ignores any and all obstructions in its path?
WS are not faster than that.
It's hard to take your point seriously after that.
WS move 12" + 18" with an optional further +6" for those that take star engines. All while also ignoring movement penalties. In what world is a 12" move faster then that? The only beast list in recent history that could catch them was the old beast pack, which did it by using 30+ models, making a massive footprint. 6 model beast units definitely will struggle to counter WS.
BoomWolf wrote: Enlighten me what unit out there is too fast for beasts that liturally ignores any and all obstructions in its path?
WS are not faster than that.
It's hard to take your point seriously after that.
WS move 12" + 18" with an optional further +6" for those that take star engines. All while also ignoring movement penalties. In what world is a 12" move faster then that? The only beast list in recent history that could catch them was the old beast pack, which did it by using 30+ models, making a massive footprint. 6 model beast units definitely will struggle to counter WS.
So, the WS completely forgoes shooting in order to spend the entire game RUNNING AWAY.
That does not solve anything. we return to the wraiths just camping around objectives and winning that way if you don't dedicate a hell lot of firepower to kill them.
Many things can out-race wraiths if they do nothing but run away. but running away will never win you a game.
BoomWolf wrote: Enlighten me what unit out there is too fast for beasts that liturally ignores any and all obstructions in its path?
WS are not faster than that.
It's hard to take your point seriously after that.
WS move 12" + 18" with an optional further +6" for those that take star engines. All while also ignoring movement penalties. In what world is a 12" move faster then that? The only beast list in recent history that could catch them was the old beast pack, which did it by using 30+ models, making a massive footprint. 6 model beast units definitely will struggle to counter WS.
So, the WS completely forgoes shooting in order to spend the entire game RUNNING AWAY.
That does not solve anything. we return to the wraiths just camping around objectives and winning that way if you don't dedicate a hell lot of firepower to kill them.
Many things can out-race wraiths if they do nothing but run away. but running away will never win you a game.
Why would they spend a whole game running? It will take the wraiths until turn 3 to get a charge off if the WS simply away 6" each turn while firing, so you shoot for two turns then boost away and repeat. Your exaggerating the movement on wraiths by insane amounts. I wouldn't shoot the wraiths with the WS either, no point, just shoot past them at your backfield and scoot until end of game where my Obsec wins out.
Eldar have a big leg up on necrons now, it's not even close. Your not even considering things like wraith knights, which cost less then wraith units and hard counter them when they do get too close. Spend turns 1-2 shooting open necron vehicles with s10 then jump into combat with the wraiths and pin them for the remainder of the game. Oh and at 240 they are less expensive.
BoomWolf wrote: Enlighten me what unit out there is too fast for beasts that liturally ignores any and all obstructions in its path?
WS are not faster than that.
It's hard to take your point seriously after that.
WS move 12" + 18" with an optional further +6" for those that take star engines. All while also ignoring movement penalties. In what world is a 12" move faster then that? The only beast list in recent history that could catch them was the old beast pack, which did it by using 30+ models, making a massive footprint. 6 model beast units definitely will struggle to counter WS.
So, the WS completely forgoes shooting in order to spend the entire game RUNNING AWAY.
That does not solve anything. we return to the wraiths just camping around objectives and winning that way if you don't dedicate a hell lot of firepower to kill them.
Many things can out-race wraiths if they do nothing but run away. but running away will never win you a game.
Wave serpentss can still move 12" and shoot. They are fast vehicles. So you have to weather the storm and try to corner them and when you finally do they can jump over you and move the extra distance to get away... that is if they need to at that point. They might just disembark and finish off your squad. I faced a 4 flyrant list the other day... it was painful and I am pretty sure if I had wraiths i would of been sucking as they could of just killed off the rest of my army while ignoring the wraiths or shoot the wraiths that are trying to camp the objectives. Just trying to prove the point here. If you spam wraiths I wont just beat you I will have a solid shot at tabling you with most of my current GT builds. I thought about spamming the wraiths but the list of hard counters added up fast. People are having a knee jerk because of the T5 and the gimicky RP that they wont have for more then a turn against good players.
Realistically its 48" MAX for a Wraith to get to the enemy back field. with 12" movement and max run of 6" it will at least 2 or 3 turns to get to and corner anything.
EDIT: Its exceptionally obvious that they will have trouble with FMC and Fliers. but what other "Hard" Counters are you taking about and what GT armies will do exactly that?
Realistically its 48" MAX for a Wraith to get to the enemy back field. with 12" movement and max run of 6" it will at least 2 or 3 turns to get to and corner anything.
EDIT: Its exceptionally obvious that they will have trouble with FMC and Fliers. but what other "Hard" Counters are you taking about and what GT armies will do exactly that?
Eldar
Tau (nothing really has less then S5 shooting and they know dakka more then most)
FMC Spam
Flyer Spam
A better balanced Necron build (Also my current Necron build which has 30 Tomb Blades.. Ide rather face the wraiths myself...)
AM believe or not they have the most availability to S10 firepower and have conscripts and/or blobs that are usually buffed to keep you back.
Orks have the numbers and the dakka to outright ignore the wraiths or lock them down with a unit for long enough.
Imperial Knights can wreck them in combat as well.
Psyker heavy armies... invisibility and other boost. The necrons lack psykers and most people are thinking of necron pure armies to get all of these buffs we keep mentioning.
It would be easier to just name what wraith spam is actually good against...
Start of your turn, you're 24" away.
Move 6" towards, as it can run no farther.
Its now 18" away at closest, 27" away at the tail end of he hull.
It then moves its at-best 36" over your head.
If both models were 0" in length, you'd be 18" away. A 6" charge, with fleet.
However, the Serpent's tail is about 9" closer than it's head (no part of the model can move more than the distance, and it faced you the round before).
Let's say you have 1" diameter Wraiths, all in a line.
You need to close (18"-9"-1") in one round. That's 8 inches. Cake.
If you can't cover 8 inches in a 12" move + fleet charge, you need help.
So serpents should definitely not be moving over your head.
Now for shooting.
Each Serpent does effectively 1 wound/round
At about 3x the cost, and Wraiths having 2 wounds, that's 6 rounds of shooting to make up its cost.
So if a game goes on for 6 rounds with Wraiths chasing them, and Serpents shooting them every round, the Serpents win. They flat out once, or Wraiths catch them, wraiths win.
Wraiths move faster than a non-flat-out serpent.
Wraiths can easily catch a Serpent even if it flat outs.
No. Serpents fail miserably against Wraiths. It should be an ideal matchup for them, but they just can't so it. Wraiths are scary.
Eldar: Besides WS which i just pointed will have 2-3 turns max before getting in CC against fleeting Wraiths, Wraith knights can probably punk any that are left with ST10. Tau: In the shear numbers needed by the time you kill 1 unit there will be 2-3 more right next to them which is the point. already pointed out you need Over 100-200 "hits" just to fell a unit. and broadsides are moving slow or will be snap shooting.
FMC Spam: Duh Flyer Spam: Double Duh balanced Necron build Waiting to see what comes up AM What competitive AM Builds are there now a days. i haven't seen any lately. (like actual builds or list summaries?) im aware they can bring ST10 up the butt but do they actually do so in competitive settings. Demolisher are not seen that often Orks : Yep Tarpitting them is kinda dealing with them yeah. Imperial Knights : Yeah probably but what IK Spam list have been winning the competitive scene? Psyker heavy armies... invisibility and other boost.: Sooo tarpit?
Edit: Speaking of 24" WS Scatter lasers which significantly buffs SS would allow for a charge nearly every turn. (since 12" + 12" charge against "within" 24" to shoot SL and SS (even more since IIRC the scatter laser is near the back of the WS)))
Start of your turn, you're 24" away.
Move 6" towards, as it can run no farther.
Its now 18" away at closest, 27" away at the tail end of he hull.
It then moves its at-best 36" over your head.
If both models were 0" in length, you'd be 18" away. A 6" charge, with fleet.
However, the Serpent's tail is about 9" closer than it's head (no part of the model can move more than the distance, and it faced you the round before).
Let's say you have 1" diameter Wraiths, all in a line.
You need to close (18"-9"-1") in one round. That's 8 inches. Cake.
If you can't cover 8 inches in a 12" move + fleet charge, you need help.
So serpents should definitely not be moving over your head.
Now for shooting.
Each Serpent does effectively 1 wound/round
At about 3x the cost, and Wraiths having 2 wounds, that's 6 rounds of shooting to make up its cost.
So if a game goes on for 6 rounds with Wraiths chasing them, and Serpents shooting them every round, the Serpents win. They flat out once, or Wraiths catch them, wraiths win.
Wraiths move faster than a non-flat-out serpent.
Wraiths can easily catch a Serpent even if it flat outs.
No. Serpents fail miserably against Wraiths. It should be an ideal matchup for them, but they just can't so it. Wraiths are scary.
Or you know, you could move left or right, after all the table might be "just" 48" wide but it's also 72" across. 6 40mm bases aren't that much area coverage. Also heaven forbid the eldar player doesn't use his brain and use the 10 guardians to bubble wrap the tank if you did corner it, allowing the tank to definitely escape once your wraiths waste a round on 80 points that took 3 turns to catch.
Also, people, continue to just ignore the the almost standard 3 wraith knights that are cheaper, more versatile and absolutely counter wraiths. Without MSS these things become almost impossible for necrons to deal with effectively or efficiently.
Eldar: Besides WS which i just pointed will have 2-3 turns max before getting in CC against fleeting Wraiths, Wraith knights can probably punk any that are left with ST10.
Tau: In the shear numbers needed by the time you kill 1 unit there will be 2-3 more right next to them which is the point. already pointed out you need Over 100-200 "hits" just to fell a unit. and broadsides are moving slow or will be snap shooting.
Again, why do people keep throwing numbers up like a good player will shoot the wraiths? I am personally floored to see canoptek harvest across the table personall, as your wasting more points on durability that you won't need because I am just going after your backfield until I need to tarpit your wraiths.
Wraith Knights won't waste time shooting wraiths, they will simply shoot your AV13 until the last moment when they need to tie you up. 6 wraiths are the same cost as a wraith knight if you forgo the whipcoils, they can't shoot unlike he can, they also aren't effective against horde or other durable units.
Tau can do the same thing with a nova charged riptide or a unit with a buff commander/ iridium armor tank since they can just become stubborn then HnR.
Nobody in here is saying wraiths are a bad unit or choice to take, simply that competitively they are not that good compared to other builds. I think destroyers are much scarier personally, they are also extremely durable but more importantly they actually will cause much higher amounts of damage from long range. Same goes for tomb blades. Destroyers are anti elite, P caster tomb blades are your anti horde.
Edit: Speaking of 24" WS Scatter lasers which significantly buffs SS would allow for a charge nearly every turn. (since 12" + 12" charge against "within" 24" to shoot SL and SS (even more since IIRC the scatter laser is near the back of the WS)))
Your unworthy of that avatar, SL are 36" range, no idea how you got 24"
WK wounds on 2's, Wraiths save on 3s.
Wraiths wound on 6s. WK can't save them.
Per attack, (5/6)(1/3) vs (1/6) means WK does hit harder, and takes 45 points of wraiths out with each failed save. Wraiths take out something like 40 points per wound. But equal points of Wraiths have far more attacks and wounds than a WK.
And Wraiths go first.
Doesnt look like a hard counter to me.
As for moving left/right, you're still either shooting or flat-outing. And perhaps of you back a serpent against the middle of the far edge in DoW deployment, the Serpent can flat out to either corner. But the Wraith unit, if spread right (3 guys gives you what, a 9-12" line?), wraiths just box them in again. Nother round passes, neither the Serpent nor Wraiths do damage.
As for dropping a 90pt Guardian unit in the way, just don't charge it. If they charge you, you need to kill 2 and they're more likely to run than not (odds they wound you are quite slim). And thats 90 points your 135 point unit likely wipes in a single round.
Not to mention you'd have to be daft to just be running up the table every round. You actually get a lot more distance charging a small threat where feasible. All while the Serpent is hopelessly plunking away against you. Youll wind up a mountain of points ahead.
And while were on it, I totally spaced that, if a Serpent is shooting you with everything, their nose is about 20" away from you. Chargeable, after a 12 inch move. Or you run forward and they either flat out to live a little longer, or you charge them next round. So Serpents will rarely be using their full firepower on you.
You seriously think wraiths aren't countered by wraith knights? You'd be lucky to chew your way out in 3 turns. Add that to the first 2 you waste getting their and we have a game length. Those first 2 turns I am cracking your AV13 shields. Not going for explodes, just cracking quantum shielding and moving on so the serpents can finish them.
You also have no idea how bubble wrap works from that response. If I wrap my WS with 10 guardians your wraiths either watch them since they don't have guns or assault and kill them and now my tank turbos away. Wraiths don't beet serpents.
Even if you catch a serpent, it takes you 2 turns minimum to get the tank and occupants which cost less total, your dreaming if you think you will efficiently deal with serpent spam using wraiths.
Per attack, (5/6)(1/3) vs (1/6) means WK does hit harder, and takes 45 points of wraiths out with each failed save. Wraiths take out something like 40 points per wound. But equal points of Wraiths have far more attacks and wounds than a WK.
Wrong. You get 6 wounds worth since the WK doubles them out. I'd give the wraiths the medal except for the fact the WK has two heavy D canons making it a stronger unit. Wraiths do one thing only.
As for moving left/right, you're still either shooting or flat-outing. And perhaps of you back a serpent against the middle of the far edge in DoW deployment, the Serpent can flat out to either corner. But the Wraith unit, if spread right (3 guys gives you what, a 9-12" line?), wraiths just box them in again. Nother round passes, neither the Serpent nor Wraiths do damage.
3 wraiths gives you exactly 8.5 inches, not 9-12. a 40mm base is 1.5" multiply that by 3 and add the two 2" gaps between them=8.5
You could with a full 6 achieve a 19" screen and with three units leaving 12" gaps between units make a decent line of threat, but then why would'nt the eldar player refuse flank and charge all three WK's into the nearest unit? Creates an obstacle, forces the other two units to run further and 3 WK will obliterate a single wraith unit.
The responses in here make it seem like the eldar player has no choice but to wait and get punched. It's not gona happen unless your playing a casual opponent.
Once your wraiths are occupied what on earth will you do to kill those WS? How will you protect your backfield?
WK needs to successfully wound 5 times to drop 5 wraiths
5 wraiths need to successfully wound 5 times total to drop a WK.
WK wounds twice as often per attack, but with 5 models (how many attacks per models?) Wraiths still win for the points.
I don't think Wraiths should go hunting for the WK, but it would certainly be a jucy target of opportunity, if the Eldar player let them get close. I'm just saying WKs aren't a counter to Wraiths. Sure, you'll drop one every other round or so by shooting, but that's less than 10% of its cost per round. While needing to hide from the Wraiths.
Bubble wrap could give the Serpent another round of shooting - or two of running - but only prolong a losing battle.
Bharring wrote: Hence the 45 points per wound. Factored that in.
WK needs to successfully wound 5 times to drop 5 wraiths
5 wraiths need to successfully wound 5 times total to drop a WK.
WK wounds twice as often per attack, but with 5 models (how many attacks per models?) Wraiths still win for the points.
I don't think Wraiths should go hunting for the WK, but it would certainly be a jucy target of opportunity, if the Eldar player let them get close. I'm just saying WKs aren't a counter to Wraiths. Sure, you'll drop one every other round or so by shooting, but that's less than 10% of its cost per round. While needing to hide from the Wraiths.
Bubble wrap could give the Serpent another round of shooting - or two of running - but only prolong a losing battle.
Nope WK have 6 wounds they need to successfully wound him 6 times to drop him.
Why would it give them 2 of running? You boost one turn then shoot for at least 2 more.
The WK is also 240, not 200, so costs 6 Wraiths, not 5.
WK has 4 attacks base, +1 for charge. Even if Wraiths had 1 attack each, theyd still win if the WK Charges. But they get +6 attacks if they manage to get the charge.
I assumed with bubblewrap we were talking about after you had backed it against the far board edge.
Either way, it flat outs at best 36". You consolidate and move for 19", so its furthest point is 11" away. It could back off 12" and fire two weapons - putting its furthest point at best 23", and if its shooting more than the SL, its closest point is at most 14" away from you (9" in length). Move 12, then charge 2". Dead serpent. Bought one extra round of shooting. So you lost 20 points worth of wounds.
It could flat out a second time. Assuming its not cornered already. And it has a place to go. Might even get a round of shooting off, before you corner it. But you win.
So t1/2 you push forward, it falls back shooting (20pts/round). T3 it shoots (20 pts) and feeds you bubblewrap which you obligingly eat (90 pts). It then flat outs t4. Then, t5, it shoots once more (20pts), then dies (155+ pts, star engines). Or it flat outs t5, shoots if there is a t6 (20pts), and dies if there is a t7 (155+ pts).
So the Serpent kills two Wraiths all game for 155 points, gets a 90 point bubble wrap killed, and may/may not survive. So, if you have nothing else to charge along the way, the Eldar lost 245 points to keep your 120 points busy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (All this is a good thing. I think Blasix's point in the other thread is right. Perhaps this will just knock Serpent Spam and MC centerpiece armies down a peg. Something they need.)
Just throwing this out there, but has anyone considered using an Eversor as a giant can of Raid? He should take out the spider in a round of combat, then tie up the wraiths for a turn or two. Not bad for under 150 points.
Bharring wrote: The WK is also 240, not 200, so costs 6 Wraiths, not 5.
WK has 4 attacks base, +1 for charge. Even if Wraiths had 1 attack each, theyd still win if the WK Charges. But they get +6 attacks if they manage to get the charge.
I assumed with bubblewrap we were talking about after you had backed it against the far board edge.
Either way, it flat outs at best 36". You consolidate and move for 19", so its furthest point is 11" away. It could back off 12" and fire two weapons - putting its furthest point at best 23", and if its shooting more than the SL, its closest point is at most 14" away from you (9" in length). Move 12, then charge 2". Dead serpent. Bought one extra round of shooting. So you lost 20 points worth of wounds.
It could flat out a second time. Assuming its not cornered already. And it has a place to go. Might even get a round of shooting off, before you corner it. But you win.
So t1/2 you push forward, it falls back shooting (20pts/round). T3 it shoots (20 pts) and feeds you bubblewrap which you obligingly eat (90 pts). It then flat outs t4. Then, t5, it shoots once more (20pts), then dies (155+ pts, star engines). Or it flat outs t5, shoots if there is a t6 (20pts), and dies if there is a t7 (155+ pts).
So the Serpent kills two Wraiths all game for 155 points, gets a 90 point bubble wrap killed, and may/may not survive. So, if you have nothing else to charge along the way, the Eldar lost 245 points to keep your 120 points busy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (All this is a good thing. I think Blasix's point in the other thread is right. Perhaps this will just knock Serpent Spam and MC centerpiece armies down a peg. Something they need.)
At this point I am done with you. Your not even reading my posts or being realistic. I said it's 1WK vs 6 wraiths FROM THE START. I mean you didn't even know a WK has 6 wounds until I corrected you, so how can you even discuss it's strengths or weaknesses?
I hate discussions that devolve into, well if you do A I'll just do B.... The game is fluid, and I like to assume my opponents are not morons. It's not hard to dictate the terms of an encounter with a unit that moves 12" a turn and has no ranged attack. Period. All it can do is play chase, meaning your opponent will always chose when and where he wants to deal with the threat.
Old school wraith wing was decent because it packed 3-4 NS and 3 AB's (which btw are worse as well) and had MSS destroyer lords for things like the wk. Show me how on earth you can fit all those units into a Necron army now? Make an 1850 list and I'll make an 1850 eldar list and show you how outgunned you'll be.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TranSpyre wrote: Just throwing this out there, but has anyone considered using an Eversor as a giant can of Raid? He should take out the spider in a round of combat, then tie up the wraiths for a turn or two. Not bad for under 150 points.
Ha ha I love that idea actually, the thought of an Orcan man eversor is awesome!
TranSpyre wrote: Just throwing this out there, but has anyone considered using an Eversor as a giant can of Raid? He should take out the spider in a round of combat, then tie up the wraiths for a turn or two. Not bad for under 150 points.
Thats adorable. but can he survive that many hits and make that many 4+ saves?
the other issue with the WS versus wraith talk is that if you are maxing our your wraith movement each turn you are not going to have the spyder buff past turn 2 most likely.
The WS guns/serpent shield are not short ranged, so it can fire at things past the wraiths, and still have an effect- it is not forced to shoot the wraiths at all.
as for WK
WK is as mobile as wraiths, so there is no guarantee wraiths get the charge off.
Lets say wraiths do, 6 wraiths charge 24 attacks, 12 hits. 2 rends, 1 other wound which will probably be saved. If knight is fortuned, good chance, then wraiths will do 1 wound total on average.
Wk strikes back, will on average kill 1 Spyder a turn if the wraith does not have RP, if the spyder does will kill on average .66 wraiths a turn.
Next round spyders lose their charge bonus, of WK is not fortuned spyders now have 5 models, striking 15 times we will say scoring 8 hits, 1 rend and 1 wound, if fortuned the Wk will maybe take 1 wound. If not it will still maybe only take 1 wound due to 5++ versus rend and 3+ versus non rends. It will gib another wraith.
The end result is combat being locked for 5 assault phases (2-3 game turns) and the wraiths losing with the wraithknight on average having 2-3 wounds remaining.
The main issue is the 6 wounds at toughness 8 and the saves. rending is not very good to be honest, and its much better on units other than wraiths. for close to 260pts you get 6 wraiths with rending. Thats 24 attacks on the charge, but only 18 if they get charged or in ongoing assault. That doesn't sound so bad but when you factor in most of their targets are ws4+ so they only hit half the time you are looking at 12 hits/9 hits. You rend on a 6, so on average your looking at 1-2 rends, the rest of the attacks although str6 give armor saves. At str6 versus WK T 8 only 1/6th of your remaining attacks are going to wound, and then the Wk gets armor saves- possibly with rerolls.
Rending is awesome on things like daemonettes because they are cheap(er). at 260 pts you can get 28 daemonettes and have points to spare. They have 2 attacks each, 3 on the charge so when 28 daemonettes charge they get 84 attacks, 42 hits, which is about 7 rends. 7 rends is a lot better than 1 or 2. The only strength of rending on wraiths is it gives them the ability to not be tarpitted by AV13+ walkers and to have a decent chance to affect AV 12+ vehicles.
anyone thinking wraiths are going to walk all over a Wk and completely destroy it is confused.
Well it usually won't have the 5++ but you are still right, at best a unit of wraiths is locked for the remainder of the game. Meanwhile for as long as they can the WK along with the eldar army ignore the wraiths and open up the necron backfield. Also wraiths either rend or can't wound. So it's about a wound every turn after they charge IF they don't lose any.
Actually that's why I think the canoptek harvest is terrible. Your inflating already durable and pricey units to make them more durable, yet they still have the issue of crap damage output, it makes the decision to ignore them even more obvious and makes that additional tax even more wasted points.
Anyone feeling differently should just play the matchup against a good eldar player and they will see that the eldar player is basically dictating where, when and on what terms to fight the entire game.
Edit: I also have been humoring the little fact that it is always assumed the deployment is dawn of war, in hammer and anvil or vanguard, 2/3rds chance, it is crazy to imagine the wraiths impacting the game much.
Desubot wrote: If we are doing the Spider formation, then its entirely possible to be sending in the scarabs first while moving up the wraiths a bit slower.
But eldar shooting ID's scarabs so easily, heck anyone can ID them easily. Thunderfires, flyrants etc etc. I agree with you though, you should toss them up as well as an additional deal with me type target if you take CH, but if your leading the advance with them your not making more then 1 base. 4 scarabs is one volley for first blood.
I just can't see running the CH formation more then once. If I am running CAD wraiths I'd never bother, all it does is add 2 softer elements for FB and KP's.
TranSpyre wrote: Just throwing this out there, but has anyone considered using an Eversor as a giant can of Raid? He should take out the spider in a round of combat, then tie up the wraiths for a turn or two. Not bad for under 150 points.
Thats adorable. but can he survive that many hits and make that many 4+ saves?
All I want him to do is nuke the spider. He can easily do that with 4 (4+) shots then 7 (2+) re-rolling wound attacks on the charge. Anything he does after that is icing on the cake.
I agree that the canoptek harvest formation is a lot more lack luster than people make it out to be.
I think a lot of people got excited about the wraiths and getting the spyder buff for the 4+ RP and how amazing!!!one!!1eleven! they would become.
But the reality is not that amazing.
You will not get the buff until you go, so if you go second they do not start with it during enemy shooting. You will probably be out of range of the buff if you play the wraiths aggressively by turn 3, if the lone spyder (it is just 1 spyder..) is still alive.
I think its actually a pretty good charge deterrent unit, and if played conservatively would be scary. I think in many situations the shred buff the spyder can give, which many people seem to not notice, is much better than RP. especially versus high toughness units.
6 wraiths assaulting a WK with shred/rend is a different story for example, 24 attacks 12 hits 2 rends maybe 1 other wound you reroll the other dice and get another rend and wound. So total is 3 rends and 2 wounds, now if the WK does not have a 5++ you just halfed its life, if it rolls bad on the saves you maybe crippled it in one assault. This is still unlikely to pull off because you probably will not get the assault on the WK until turn 3-4 unless the Wk wanted to assault you and failed, and then you will probably not have access to shred because you outmoved the spyder, or it is dead. It's not like eldar have a hard time moving to kill something.
regardless, wraiths were good before, and the improvements they have gotten which most people are talking about are not offensive, so thinking wraiths that could not kill a WK before are now going to stomp it into the ground is silly, because offensively nothing has changed unless you are talking about shred, and or the loss of a D.Lord backing them up. The above also means your wraiths are not doing much the first 2-3 turns of the game other than playing cat and mouse.
TranSpyre wrote: Just throwing this out there, but has anyone considered using an Eversor as a giant can of Raid? He should take out the spider in a round of combat, then tie up the wraiths for a turn or two. Not bad for under 150 points.
Thats adorable. but can he survive that many hits and make that many 4+ saves?
All I want him to do is nuke the spider. He can easily do that with 4 (4+) shots then 7 (2+) re-rolling wound attacks on the charge. Anything he does after that is icing on the cake.
You realize it takes over 100 hits alone to down a unit right? Edit: (at str 4 anyway probably less if fleshbane or higher str but still)
I think its actually a pretty good charge deterrent unit, and if played conservatively would be scary. I think in many situations the shred buff the spyder can give, which many people seem to not notice, is much better than RP. especially versus high toughness units.
Yeah. A charge deterrent unit is what it is. It's not some kind of killer assault unit.
A wraith costs about the same as 3 assault marines, right? We'll assume it has whip coils since people seem crazy about that, so no shooting attack.
On the charge, a Wraith vs. MEQ puts out 0.778 wounds.
On the other hand, three assault marines charging MEQ on the charge put out
shooting pistols = 0.33 wounds
hammer of wrath = 0.5 wounds
slap-fighin' in close combat = 0.75 wounds
total 1.58
Hey look at that 3 assault marines are twice as effective as a wraith on the charge against MEQ. Overpowered asssault marins must be nerfed, now!
18 attacks. 9 hits. S6? So wounds w/o saves on 6. 1.5 of them, average. No saves.
WK 4 attacks. 2 hit. 10/6 wounds, or 1+2/3 wounds. 2/3 saves, so 10/9ths unsaved wounds (IDing).
Wraiths get 15 attacks, 15/2 hits, 5/4 wounds, for 11/4ths wounds. Nearly half there.
I get that it's slow, but it would tie up the WK at worst. And looks like Wraiths would come out ahead. Even without Harvest.
And if you're throwing 5++/Fortune in, that is a lot more points. Fortune is WC2. And only Farseers can cast it. And does nothing without that 5++.
But I'm not saying Wraiths are good counters to WKs. I'm saying WKs arent good counters for Wraiths. Those Wraiths should be able to charge something jucy in short order. The WK shouldn't want to get into CC with the wraiths, so can't protect units by threatening.
I think its actually a pretty good charge deterrent unit, and if played conservatively would be scary. I think in many situations the shred buff the spyder can give, which many people seem to not notice, is much better than RP. especially versus high toughness units.
Yeah. A charge deterrent unit is what it is. It's not some kind of killer assault unit.
A wraith costs about the same as 3 assault marines, right? We'll assume it has whip coils since people seem crazy about that, so no shooting attack.
On the charge, a Wraith vs. MEQ puts out 0.778 wounds.
On the other hand, three assault marines charging MEQ on the charge put out
shooting pistols = 0.33 wounds
hammer of wrath = 0.5 wounds
slap-fighin' in close combat = 0.75 wounds
total 1.58
Hey look at that 3 assault marines are twice as effective as a wraith on the charge against MEQ. Overpowered asssault marins must be nerfed, now!
that math is off
wraiths are better in CC by far the assault marines.. they are better in many other ways as well.
ancraig wrote: As a deathwing and orks player, I'm not overly worried about it.
s8 fists against them, even with a 3++, i'm still going to take some to all down in one round of combat. they've got rending, which is annoying, but not reliable. In addition, i've got my anti everything unit: THE DEFFWANG KNIGHTS. People always laugh at me when I take them, but they crap themselves when i get in combat with anything with them and smite. ID'ing these fools? check. Taking down any monstrous creature easily? check.
and orks...power klaws. If i can get my warboss in there, so much the better, with my s 10 PK attacks. t5 and a 3++ are cute, but i've got 30 boys with a power klaw'ed nob/warboss who will throw so many wounds on you that it doesn't even matter.
I'm surprised they got buffed, but honestly, i'm not worried.
They will swing before your DW with whip coils and force significant amount of saves with a few potential rending attacks. Your fists will land on 3++ invul (potentially backed up by RP) and won't be doubling out any of these 2 wound models. Therefore, your 5 man unit of Tactical Termies will most likely fold in a round or two.
wraiths are better in CC by far the assault marines.. they are better in many other ways as well.
I just double-checked and the math is indeed correct. 3 assault marines do in fact do considerably more damage on the charge vs. MEQ than do 1 Wraith. That's because they have a shooting attack + hammer of wrath + 9 attacks vs. the wraith's nothing, nothing, and 4 attacks.
Wraiths simply do not have high damage output against anything with an armour save.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is simply not a unit that is going to do a lot of damage.
It will take a lot of damage, but that is a different story.
18 attacks. 9 hits. S6? So wounds w/o saves on 6. 1.5 of them, average. No saves.
WK 4 attacks. 2 hit. 10/6 wounds, or 1+2/3 wounds. 2/3 saves, so 10/9ths unsaved wounds (IDing).
Wraiths get 15 attacks, 15/2 hits, 5/4 wounds, for 11/4ths wounds. Nearly half there.
I get that it's slow, but it would tie up the WK at worst. And looks like Wraiths would come out ahead. Even without Harvest.
And if you're throwing 5++/Fortune in, that is a lot more points. Fortune is WC2. And only Farseers can cast it. And does nothing without that 5++.
But I'm not saying Wraiths are good counters to WKs. I'm saying WKs arent good counters for Wraiths. Those Wraiths should be able to charge something jucy in short order. The WK shouldn't want to get into CC with the wraiths, so can't protect units by threatening.
Never fielded a WK myself. They are dumb.
You are contradicting yourself now. Your OK with fielding 18 wraiths which you claim are better then the 3 wraith knights, yet wraith knights are dumb (OP implied).
Further you just ran the numbers with the wraiths charging and they won't just kill the WK. Each round of CC the wraiths lose a wraith, or thats 3 attacks. So eventually you will get that WK on it's last two wounds and you will struggle to finish it, and every round you don't get a lucky rend he makes that battle 1/6 harder buy killing yet another. The WK fights at 100% until he dies, A MASSIVE edge you fail to recognize.
You also keep factoring in the charge for the wraiths, you yourself said your gunning for the WS, so now your going to assault the WK? They move the same speed. More likely you spend two turns closing in and then a smart opponent charges you, preferably 3 WK to one unit of wraiths.
Bharring wrote: The WK shouldn't want to get into CC with the wraiths, so can't protect units by threatening
Why wouldn't it want to? It costs less points and gets 2 rounds to fire a very effective ranged weapon at other targets. So look at it this way, both units waste the majority of the game slap fighting but only one gets to impact the game elsewhere, that's the WK. Again, it shoots the QS off your vehicles before getting bogged down and now the WS can hurt anything in your army efficiently.
They will swing before your DW with whip coils and force significant amount of saves with a few potential rending attacks.
"Significant amount of saves" here is less than 1.5 per Wraith, of which 0.25 will be a rend, which will get through the Inv save 66% of the time. It should take 5 wraiths quite some time to kill 5 terminators,
wraiths are better in CC by far the assault marines.. they are better in many other ways as well.
I just double-checked and the math is indeed correct. 3 assault marines do in fact do considerably more damage on the charge vs. MEQ than do 1 Wraith. That's because they have a shooting attack + hammer of wrath + 9 attacks vs. the wraith's nothing, nothing, and 4 attacks.
Wraiths simply do not have high damage output against anything with an armour save.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is simply not a unit that is going to do a lot of damage.
It will take a lot of damage, but that is a different story.
^This
Wraiths are an amazing unit for what they are, a durable tarpit. They don't have volume to kill hordes and lack AP to kill elite units efficiently. It's the fact that they cost 258 with WC for 6. That is not a cheap unit for 6 models. I can get 3 combat squads and a rhino for less all with obsec. You would be lucky to kill those 4 units with one unit of wraiths in a game. Any of it survives on an objective and I win.
Take them stock from a CAD, I'd even save on the WC personally and use a unit or two to defend (ie tie up) anything threatening your other units.
The WK being dumb doesn't mean it eats anything. Few people doubt a Serpent is OP, but a Serpent doesn't counter a Land Raider. On that end, Wraiths may not be a problem. However, I don't see Serpents and WKs being a hardcounter to them.
That was 18 attacks, not 18 wraiths. Those numbers were with neither side getting the assault.
My point is the WK doesn't want to be in melee with Wraiths. Per point, especially if they get the charge (not so likely), the WK is in danger. Perhaps I underestimated the speed at which the wraiths damage falls off over the rounds. So, perhaps a WK would win if it charged Wraiths. It would certainly be a riskey proposition. And would take the WK out of play for a while.
Serpents are a jucy target for Wraiths, certainly. But the only thing in the Eldar dex that I would think wouldn't be would be either the WK, or maybe a fearless unit of guardians? So Wraiths should be pushing the player, and eating what it sacrifices. Targets of opportunity.
For the 3wk issue, if they charge you, you're controlling the engagement. You lose half that unit that turn, but between the 1.5 wounds it did, the 4 wounds the other two wraith units will do on its charge, and the .75 wounds the remaining wraith do, one WK bites it, and we're back to effectively the same numbers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It costs 15 points less. At 240. Not substantially cheaper.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And that 15 points let's it strike first in combat
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think we're talking past each other. I'm saying WK doesn't roflstomp wraiths, you're saying Wraiths won't win against WK. Those positions are not necessarily that far apart.
Wraiths are a premier Elite squad Assault unit. They will reach an important target and either tie it up for several turns or kill it by the end of the game.
Does that make them OP? In the eyes of some, sure. But it's not necessarily the most broken thing in the game. In fact, just by the nature of Assault in this edition, I don't think any Assault unit can be considered "game breaking". At most, a super powerful assault unit is going to reach a high value target sometime around turn 2 or 3, kill it around 3 or 4, and maybe tie up a second unit for the last turn or two. It's not like a Knight, which can shoot a squad off the board and then end a combat in one round with Destroyer Weapon + Stomps.
Instead, it's basically a slightly expensive 1v1 squad. Against MSU, it'll get a squad or two, which doesn't matter. Against other elite armies, it might do better. But by no means does that make it "OP".
I don't know if someone has mentioned this as a solution, but I think the Knight Castigator is a good point investment that won't die instantly to the squad, and fairs decently in combat against it. At 380 points, the shooting will kill 1 wraith (8 shots TL, str 7), leaving 5 left in the squad. On assault, wraiths swing first, with avg 1 rend getting through (15 atks, hitting on 4s, rending on 6s). Using the castigator auto-hits at str 10, this will kill another 2 wraiths (5 auto hits, wounds on 2s, each failed saved doubles a wraith out). Finally, he gets stomps, which will on average kill another, and has the potential to remove them from play.
Bharring wrote: The WK being dumb doesn't mean it eats anything. Few people doubt a Serpent is OP, but a Serpent doesn't counter a Land Raider. On that end, Wraiths may not be a problem. However, I don't see Serpents and WKs being a hardcounter to them.
That was 18 attacks, not 18 wraiths. Those numbers were with neither side getting the assault.
My point is the WK doesn't want to be in melee with Wraiths. Per point, especially if they get the charge (not so likely), the WK is in danger. Perhaps I underestimated the speed at which the wraiths damage falls off over the rounds. So, perhaps a WK would win if it charged Wraiths. It would certainly be a riskey proposition. And would take the WK out of play for a while.
Serpents are a jucy target for Wraiths, certainly. But the only thing in the Eldar dex that I would think wouldn't be would be either the WK, or maybe a fearless unit of guardians? So Wraiths should be pushing the player, and eating what it sacrifices. Targets of opportunity.
For the 3wk issue, if they charge you, you're controlling the engagement. You lose half that unit that turn, but between the 1.5 wounds it did, the 4 wounds the other two wraith units will do on its charge, and the .75 wounds the remaining wraith do, one WK bites it, and we're back to effectively the same numbers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It costs 15 points less. At 240. Not substantially cheaper.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And that 15 points let's it strike first in combat
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think we're talking past each other. I'm saying WK doesn't roflstomp wraiths, you're saying Wraiths won't win against WK. Those positions are not necessarily that far apart.
I never said the WK rofl stomps them though. I said eldar have a unit that is equally durable yet WAY more flexible to counter them. A counter doesn't mean you need to pick another unit off the table in a turn, or even ever. A counter just implies that it removes the advantage the other unit creates. A 15 point difference is still a 15 point difference and it comes on a unit that is effective in each phase (barring psychic).
You still fail to acknowledge the difference the shooting of a WK makes. The wraiths lack any real ranged threat. Particle casters suck btw and only make them more expensive and forgo running. It's a 258 pint unit that doesn't die easily but only assaults, with none armor piercing attacks. If you are taking that many wraiths your eating up your FA slots and points. Where is your shooting coming from?
This is beyond wishful thinking, but I was wondering....
What if the 2W was a typo? They meant to up to T5, but down to 1W?
I mean, 1W would make them more in-line with equivalently priced TH/SS terminators. Terminators have better armor, stronger attacks, but slower, wraiths faster, better I, RP, and rending.
I mean, that seems a little more balanced, and would take wraiths from an OMGWTFBBQ unit to a solid one.
I guess I'm having trouble wrapping my head around multiwound models getting +1T and no cost increase. That's nuts.
Bharring wrote: The WK is also 240, not 200, so costs 6 Wraiths, not 5.
WK has 4 attacks base, +1 for charge. Even if Wraiths had 1 attack each, theyd still win if the WK Charges. But they get +6 attacks if they manage to get the charge.
I assumed with bubblewrap we were talking about after you had backed it against the far board edge.
Either way, it flat outs at best 36". You consolidate and move for 19", so its furthest point is 11" away. It could back off 12" and fire two weapons - putting its furthest point at best 23", and if its shooting more than the SL, its closest point is at most 14" away from you (9" in length). Move 12, then charge 2". Dead serpent. Bought one extra round of shooting. So you lost 20 points worth of wounds.
It could flat out a second time. Assuming its not cornered already. And it has a place to go. Might even get a round of shooting off, before you corner it. But you win.
So t1/2 you push forward, it falls back shooting (20pts/round). T3 it shoots (20 pts) and feeds you bubblewrap which you obligingly eat (90 pts). It then flat outs t4. Then, t5, it shoots once more (20pts), then dies (155+ pts, star engines). Or it flat outs t5, shoots if there is a t6 (20pts), and dies if there is a t7 (155+ pts).
So the Serpent kills two Wraiths all game for 155 points, gets a 90 point bubble wrap killed, and may/may not survive. So, if you have nothing else to charge along the way, the Eldar lost 245 points to keep your 120 points busy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (All this is a good thing. I think Blasix's point in the other thread is right. Perhaps this will just knock Serpent Spam and MC centerpiece armies down a peg. Something they need.)
At this point I am done with you. Your not even reading my posts or being realistic. I said it's 1WK vs 6 wraiths FROM THE START. I mean you didn't even know a WK has 6 wounds until I corrected you, so how can you even discuss it's strengths or weaknesses?
I hate discussions that devolve into, well if you do A I'll just do B.... The game is fluid, and I like to assume my opponents are not morons. It's not hard to dictate the terms of an encounter with a unit that moves 12" a turn and has no ranged attack. Period. All it can do is play chase, meaning your opponent will always chose when and where he wants to deal with the threat.
Old school wraith wing was decent because it packed 3-4 NS and 3 AB's (which btw are worse as well) and had MSS destroyer lords for things like the wk. Show me how on earth you can fit all those units into a Necron army now? Make an 1850 list and I'll make an 1850 eldar list and show you how outgunned you'll be.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TranSpyre wrote: Just throwing this out there, but has anyone considered using an Eversor as a giant can of Raid? He should take out the spider in a round of combat, then tie up the wraiths for a turn or two. Not bad for under 150 points.
Ha ha I love that idea actually, the thought of an Orcan man eversor is awesome!
Lots of posters forget that their opponent gets a turn as well.
I think I'm going to treat Wraiths like fast moving TH/SS terminators.
Wraiths are WAAAAAAAAY more scary to me than TH/SS terminators.
I mean, for me, I just toss boyz at terminators and tear them up (eventually).
But wraiths are tougher, faster, kill boyz just as easily, swing at the same time, and I think have more attacks. And they're harder for me to hurt. A non charging boy has 2x the chance to kill a terminator (before he swings) than to damage (and not kill) a wraith (assuming 4+ RP). That's a problem for me. Nobz and meganobz far little better, point-for-point. In fact, worse, based on my testing.
Played with 7crons 6 times now. 3 as 3 against with various armies. Record is 3-0 as, 1-2 against. My one win AGAINST them was the maelstrom game where you can claim "claim objective x" cards that the opponent has, and I had unreal luck, getting 9 points in 2 rounds for doing virtually nothing. It still ended close on points, and I was like 2 half units from being tabled.
The book is pretty good, but once you throw in the decurion, it goes over the top. We mainly used a rec legion + destroyer formation + canoptek formation. It always takes a completely silly amount of effort to kill the spyder from the harvest. Way more trouble killing a 50 point model than I've ever had before, what with wraith cover or 3+ armor and a 4+ feel no malfunction.
I did always just barely get the spyder down before the rest of the canopteks got to my dudes, but even then, I had to pour a ton into them. Meanwhile, the destroyers were just havin a grand ol' time. Did pretty much the same thing when I was the necron commander, and just wiped armies off the map with a canoptek forward rush followed by grunts and destroyers. The army is just too damn resilient. I don't ever see them getting tabled by anything other than a jilted dice god's angry wrath.
Whenever I started the game as necrons, I got that "in the bag" feel like I do with tau and eldar. When I'm against them, I get that feeling like the odds are way against me.
As for the canoptek harvest itself. It's a lot like the tau riptide. Either you accept that it's undercosted for how durable it is and try to ignore it, attempting to make up damage effectiveness elsewhere while it does what it wants, or you allocate WAY more than the thing cost to try and kill it. Either way the necrons come out ahead.
Kap'n Krump wrote: This is beyond wishful thinking, but I was wondering....
What if the 2W was a typo? They meant to up to T5, but down to 1W?
I mean, 1W would make them more in-line with equivalently priced TH/SS terminators. Terminators have better armor, stronger attacks, but slower, wraiths faster, better I, RP, and rending.
I mean, that seems a little more balanced, and would take wraiths from an OMGWTFBBQ unit to a solid one.
I guess I'm having trouble wrapping my head around multiwound models getting +1T and no cost increase. That's nuts.
I agree that the cost is insane. I doubt I'd be able to see a model of the wraiths size being one wound though. Someone will probably prove me wrong, And they did go up in cost. 5 Pts.
Red Corsair wrote: I never said the WK rofl stomps them though. I said eldar have a unit that is equally durable yet WAY more flexible to counter them. A counter doesn't mean you need to pick another unit off the table in a turn, or even ever. A counter just implies that it removes the advantage the other unit creates. A 15 point difference is still a 15 point difference and it comes on a unit that is effective in each phase (barring psychic).
I disagree slightly because their strengths and weaknesses are slightly different. Wraithknights are durable but their bane is high strength AP3 or better weapons. So they do have a weakness that the wraiths do not. Wraiths durability is consistent until you reach S10 or D weapons. Otherwise they just don't care and will save the same at any other strength. Of course the higher toughness of the Wraithknight makes it immune to lower strength weapons and that is a strength that the Wraiths don't completely have.
Now I did the maths on the whole Wraiths vs Wraithknight thing and it depends on a couple of factors. First, who gets the charge and secondly if the Wraithknight has an invulnerable save or not. The Maths show that with it's base attacks it will kill 0.56 wraiths a turn and yes I am taking into account that the Wraithknight ID's the Wraiths in the event of failed invulnerable saves. So in the instance that Wraiths get the charge and that the Wraithknight does not have an invulnerable save then the Wraiths will eventually win after 5 rounds of combat. The Wraiths will lose 2.8 models during the process, which rounding up is half the unit.
If the Wraithknight does have a scattershield in the above example then the Wraiths will be slightly favoured yet again, but this time it will take 9 turns for the Wraiths to kill the Wraithknight with only 1 member surviving.
If the Wraithknight gets to charge along with having a scattershield then both units will tend to murder each other over the course of 10 rounds of combat.
I have to say that I think the Wraiths have the slight advantage here within close combat, but then again it's going to be a case of two units fighting each other over the course of the entire game. Also it's been pointed out by you that a Wraithknight will perform some shooting before getting into the nitty gritty of combat.
EDIT: By the way, I should point out that I did NOT apply the RP saves that the wraiths get from the Canoptek Harvest formation. This means that if they do have RP in effect then they are even tougher than shown in my calcs against the Wraithknight.
Red Corsair wrote: I never said the WK rofl stomps them though. I said eldar have a unit that is equally durable yet WAY more flexible to counter them. A counter doesn't mean you need to pick another unit off the table in a turn, or even ever. A counter just implies that it removes the advantage the other unit creates. A 15 point difference is still a 15 point difference and it comes on a unit that is effective in each phase (barring psychic).
You still fail to acknowledge the difference the shooting of a WK makes. The wraiths lack any real ranged threat. Particle casters suck btw and only make them more expensive and forgo running. It's a 258 pint unit that doesn't die easily but only assaults, with none armor piercing attacks. If you are taking that many wraiths your eating up your FA slots and points. Where is your shooting coming from?
Most all of this depends on your playstyle and tactics rather than the hard numbers of the mathhammer. Not to mention upgrades. Beamer Wraiths could make the WK unhappy with a single lucky 6. Destroyers will no doubt shoot a couple shots in the WK right before the Wraiths charge, etc. The WK could easily double out wraiths with its shooting first as well. Or kill the Spider in the first two rounds. etc.
Vacuum comparisons really dont work well. Dice are fickle.
Kap'n Krump wrote: Wraiths are WAAAAAAAAY more scary to me than TH/SS terminators.
I mean, for me, I just toss boyz at terminators and tear them up (eventually).
But wraiths are tougher, faster, kill boyz just as easily, swing at the same time, and I think have more attacks. And they're harder for me to hurt. A non charging boy has 2x the chance to kill a terminator (before he swings) than to damage (and not kill) a wraith (assuming 4+ RP). That's a problem for me. Nobz and meganobz far little better, point-for-point. In fact, worse, based on my testing.
Well they have the same number of attacks as slugga boys, but they cost something like 7 times as much. So that's 21 attacks vs. 3. It will take him a long time to chew through your boys; he'll kill about 1 a turn.
Kap'n Krump wrote: Wraiths are WAAAAAAAAY more scary to me than TH/SS terminators.
I mean, for me, I just toss boyz at terminators and tear them up (eventually).
But wraiths are tougher, faster, kill boyz just as easily, swing at the same time, and I think have more attacks. And they're harder for me to hurt. A non charging boy has 2x the chance to kill a terminator (before he swings) than to damage (and not kill) a wraith (assuming 4+ RP). That's a problem for me. Nobz and meganobz far little better, point-for-point. In fact, worse, based on my testing.
Well they have the same number of attacks as slugga boys, but they cost something like 7 times as much. So that's 21 attacks vs. 3. It will take him a long time to chew through your boys; he'll kill about 1 a turn.
He will tie them up a long time though.
There's also several chances for the wraith to sweep the whole boy unit, especially given your hypothetical where they don't have a character with a boss pole.
TranSpyre wrote: Just throwing this out there, but has anyone considered using an Eversor as a giant can of Raid? He should take out the spider in a round of combat, then tie up the wraiths for a turn or two. Not bad for under 150 points.
I'm curious about this too, so here's the math on the Eversor:
Shooting - BS8, 4 poison shots: 3.67 hits, 1.83 wounds, 0.61 unsaved (3+ armor) for 0.31 after a 4+ RP.
Assault - WS8, 8 fleshbane+shred attacks on the charge: 5.33 hits, 5.18 wounds, 1.73 unsaved (3+ armor) for 0.86 after a 4+ RP.
So 1.17 wounds on average, assuming my math is correct, depending on how you like to treat partial wounds the spyder has 1-2 wounds left. Obviously luck will play a big role, but he can hurt the thing.
The bigger benefit if you can actually pull this off is that the spyder probably won't kill him, and will be stuck in combat as the wraiths move forward, losing their RP. Or the wraiths will slow down or turn back, buying you another turn to kill the other parts of the necron army and grab objectives.
The biggest difficulty of course will be getting the Eversor into combat without being shot down or assaulted by the scarabs or the wraiths themselves.
I haven't read the other 13 pages so sorry if it was mentioned. But space marines can just put a Vindicator or two on the table and probably lay down the hurt a wraith unit. And then turn their attention to whatever else.
My Tau on the other hand don't have S10 blasts lying around, so probably just drown them with shots. But a unit of 6 wraiths will take a lot of shots to put down. So I probably going to find myself in the assault :/
IXLoiero95XI wrote: I haven't read the other 13 pages so sorry if it was mentioned. But space marines can just put a Vindicator or two on the table and probably lay down the hurt a wraith unit. And then turn their attention to whatever else.
My Tau on the other hand don't have S10 blasts lying around, so probably just drown them with shots. But a unit of 6 wraiths will take a lot of shots to put down. So I probably going to find myself in the assault :/
It takes a LOT. Sitting there shooting about 3-4 times before 1 of mine died, only killed 2 because of that blasted 3++ 5+++
IXLoiero95XI wrote: I haven't read the other 13 pages so sorry if it was mentioned. But space marines can just put a Vindicator or two on the table and probably lay down the hurt a wraith unit. And then turn their attention to whatever else.
My Tau on the other hand don't have S10 blasts lying around, so probably just drown them with shots. But a unit of 6 wraiths will take a lot of shots to put down. So I probably going to find myself in the assault :/
A vindicator will struggle to pay for itself by shooting at wraiths. It's not so bad for normal wraiths, but harvest wraiths will laugh at your s10 blast. Also it has short enough range that the wraiths are in threat range, and definite combat with you next round if you try to just move 6 and shoot again. (Or if you have some bodyguards, you run the chance of vindicating them if you shoot.)
Well a wraith will do 1.444 wounds on slugga boys, while 7 slugga boys (not on the charge) will put 0.583 wounds on the wraith*. So they lose the combat by 1.
*On the charge they put out 1.556 wounds + .259 from their sluggas, so they come out a little ahead.
EDIT: I'm full of crap. I didn't factor in RP, so the above holds only in "normal" circumstances. With RP in play, halve the number of wounds done to the Wraith. (They still lose by about 1 though.)
TranSpyre wrote: Just throwing this out there, but has anyone considered using an Eversor as a giant can of Raid? He should take out the spider in a round of combat, then tie up the wraiths for a turn or two. Not bad for under 150 points.
I'm curious about this too, so here's the math on the Eversor:
Shooting - BS8, 4 poison shots: 3.67 hits, 1.83 wounds, 0.61 unsaved (3+ armor) for 0.31 after a 4+ RP.
Assault - WS8, 8 fleshbane+shred attacks on the charge: 5.33 hits, 5.18 wounds, 1.73 unsaved (3+ armor) for 0.86 after a 4+ RP.
So 1.17 wounds on average, assuming my math is correct, depending on how you like to treat partial wounds the spyder has 1-2 wounds left. Obviously luck will play a big role, but he can hurt the thing.
The bigger benefit if you can actually pull this off is that the spyder probably won't kill him, and will be stuck in combat as the wraiths move forward, losing their RP. Or the wraiths will slow down or turn back, buying you another turn to kill the other parts of the necron army and grab objectives.
The biggest difficulty of course will be getting the Eversor into combat without being shot down or assaulted by the scarabs or the wraiths themselves.
He has infiltrate, a run move, and a 3d6 charge. If anything else, he can be used as area denial.
Bharring wrote: 'Laugh at your s10 blasts' on a 40 pt model...
They will. It's a joke. Wraiths ignore terrain so they'll be spread out, meaning you'll only hit 2 at best if your opponent is halfway competent. They get a 3++, then a 4+ reanimation protocol. Your two hits turns into 0.33 wounds. Sure, it'll double them out, but for every turn you actually kill one you'll have two turns of failure.
Bharring wrote: 'Laugh at your s10 blasts' on a 40 pt model...
They will. It's a joke. Wraiths ignore terrain so they'll be spread out, meaning you'll only hit 2 at best if your opponent is halfway competent. They get a 3++, then a 4+ reanimation protocol. Your two hits turns into 0.33 wounds. Sure, it'll double them out, but for every turn you actually kill one you'll have two turns of failure.
5+++
ID drops it to 6, then gets bumped up with that formation thing.
Bharring wrote: 'Laugh at your s10 blasts' on a 40 pt model...
My manticore with its d3 large blast str10 ap4 barrage ordinance templates will have no problem I assure you of hitting 4-6 wraiths and the spyder and a few scarabs each turn. And that's exactly the target this 160 point model is meant to kill.
Wraiths are nice don't get me wrong but if you max out harvest fornations in a decorian detschment. Your placing all your bets on at most 18 wraiths winning the game for you in a 1500-1850 game. That's an absurd amount of points to place in a durable unit that doesn't have a lot of offense and has enough counters to tie them up or by killing the spyder and bringing them down with weight of attacks.
I have no fear playing a wraith list against my greentide. 282 str4 ws5 atks, 28 str9 ws5 atks (one with rerolls to hit and wound), another 4 ws5 poison atks, and 5 ws6 str8 atks on the charge from a unit that can move, run, charge and reroll distance. Might as well add the 103 str 3/4 hammer of wraith atks or 108 str 4 snapshot and or shooting atks. All on a majority toughness 4, 4+, 5++, 5+++ fnp fearless unit that costs about 1k points which is still less then two harvest formations and a decorian detachment.
People talk like wraiths are some impossible to hit invis star unit. Wraithstar just isn't in the same league and cost just as much. They are good units no doubt but not something to build an entire army around.
Bharring wrote: 'Laugh at your s10 blasts' on a 40 pt model...
My manticore with its d3 large blast str10 ap4 barrage ordinance templates will have no problem I assure you of hitting 4-6 wraiths and the spyder and a few scarabs each turn. And that's exactly the target this 160 point model is meant to kill.
Wraiths are nice don't get me wrong but if you max out harvest fornations in a decorian detschment. Your placing all your bets on at most 18 wraiths winning the game for you in a 1500-1850 game. That's an absurd amount of points to place in a durable unit that doesn't have a lot of offense and has enough counters to tie them up or by killing the spyder and bringing them down with weight of attacks.
I have no fear playing a wraith list against my greentide. 282 str4 ws5 atks, 28 str9 ws5 atks (one with rerolls to hit and wound), another 4 ws5 poison atks, and 5 ws6 str8 atks on the charge from a unit that can move, run, charge and reroll distance. Might as well add the 103 str 3/4 hammer of wraith atks or 108 str 4 snapshot and or shooting atks. All on a majority toughness 4, 4+, 5++, 5+++ fnp fearless unit that costs about 1k points which is still less then two harvest formations and a decorian detachment.
People talk like wraiths are some impossible to hit invis star unit. Wraithstar just isn't in the same league and cost just as much. They are good units no doubt but not something to build an entire army around.
From my experience of playing with greentide, it's more like 50 s3 attacks + ~10-15 pk attacks. That's around 1-1.5 dead wraith per turn. Sometimes people act like you've got 100 boyz within 2' of the enemy all the time.
Well, what GW seems to be doing with both this and the Judicator formation is that the enemy should Shoot the Big Ones.
Kill the Spyder of course. He doesn't have an invulnerable save. With RP (what happened to Fleet and Shred??), it'll take about 7 or 8 lascannon-level hits to kill him (he has 3 wounds, right?), not counting any cover saves he might get.
Since your claiming str 3 your assuming that they are being charged in which case your ignoring the 108 str4 snap shots which mean that assault is coming out with more like 2 dead wraiths. If you assume the Orks are declaring a multicharge you are ignoring the how atks or the 108 regular shooting atks meaning more like 2.5-3 dead wraiths a turn. Regardless if all the orcs don't get in range on the initial assault I assure you the next players turn after consolidation into combat or with a subsequent move run charge any surviving wraiths will be completely surrounded with 2-3 layers of orcs. With any atks the wraiths get through those toughness 4, 4+, 5+++ fnp Orks only removing a 6-10 point model.
The problem with wraiths are they don't have enough offensive. Each wraith needs to kill over 7+ Orks just to make its points back. Something that's not going to happen unless each one of them gets 2+ turns in combat. They will never survive that long vs a greentide.
Alcibiades wrote: Well, what GW seems to be doing with both this and the Judicator formation is that the enemy should Shoot the Big Ones.
Kill the Spyder of course. He doesn't have an invulnerable save. With RP (what happened to Fleet and Shred??), it'll take about 7 or 8 lascannon-level hits to kill him (he has 3 wounds, right?), not counting any cover saves he might get.
Pretty tough for a 50 pt model, eh.
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gungo wrote: Since your claiming str 3 your assuming that they are being charged in which case your ignoring the 108 str4 snap shots which mean that assault is coming out with more like 2 dead wraiths. If you assume the Orks are declaring a multicharge you are ignoring the how atks or the 108 regular shooting atks meaning more like 2.5-3 dead wraiths a turn. Regardless if all the orcs don't get in range on the initial assault I assure you the next players turn after consolidation into combat or with a subsequent move run charge any surviving wraiths will be completely surrounded with 2-3 layers of orcs. With any atks the wraiths get through those toughness 4, 4+, 5+++ fnp Orks only removing a 6-10 point model.
The problem with wraiths are they don't have enough offensive. Each wraith needs to kill 7.5 Orks just to make its points back.
And once again, you're assuming you magically have all 100+ boyz within 12' of wraiths.
But let's stick to your assumption. 108 s4 snapshots = 1 wound to a t5 model with 3+ and 4+++
They don't need enough offensive. They're tying your 1k pt unit with a 240 pt unit for like 2 turns. Now it's not that bad with a greentide if you rush the field - and that's exactly what you're supposed to do, spread out and deny him from scoring objectives. But i'd not be so optimistic about actualy killing them in no time.
Now i'm pretty frightened of a wraiths + deepstriking flayed ones combo. While wraiths hold the tide, flayed ones deepstrike with a solar staff lord and proceed to push like 30-40 wounds on the charge on their turn.
It's more like 1.5 wounds which is exactly why I said 2 dead wraiths. And seriously how often are you trying to charge someone beyond 12in? Here is also a tip all the characters shoot 24in shootas are free. Maybe not all of them are in range but a lot are going to be.
The beautiful thing about the assault phase is the Orks get 2 chances to kill you a every game turn as well as a consolidation move. In the highly unlikely event I allow you to charge the tide it's not going to be with you dragging that slow arse spyder around with you. So you are probably chaining your wraiths to keep the spyder in range which means your wraiths are not all in combat either or your taking your sweet time allowing the spyder to keep up. Either way your story doesn't jive.
At least don't lie about the price of wraiths if you are paying 240 points to tie up my Orks then you don't have whip coils, you don't have a spyder or scarabs in range and so you don have initiative or 4+++ RP. You are undervaluing the cost of the list and overvaluing thier offensive ability for I don't know what reason. If you try to tie up a greentide with a 240 point wraith unit I assure you those 6 wraith models are dead in less then 2 turns.
gungo wrote: It's more like 1.5 wounds which is exactly why I said 2 dead wraiths.
108 / 6 (to-hit) / 3 (to-wound) / 3 (save) / 2 (4+++) = 1 exxactly. Which is 0.5 dead wraiths.
And i haven't seen more than like 20 boyz within 12' of a charging opponent in real games. Yep, you'll have like a couple more shoota shots from nobz but it's not making much difference, eh.
gungo wrote: It's more like 1.5 wounds which is exactly why I said 2 dead wraiths.
108 / 6 (to-hit) / 3 (to-wound) / 3 (save) / 2 (4+++) = 1 exxactly. Which is 0.5 dead wraiths.
And i haven't seen more than like 20 boyz within 12' of a charging opponent in real games. Yep, you'll have like a couple more shoota shots from nobz but it's not making much difference, eh.
Now let's try some basic math whats .5 plus the 1.5 you mentioned from your supposed at most 50 str 3 and 10-15 pkatks...... 2 which is exactly what I said.
Even if I space out each boy 2in apart. If you attempt a charge from 6in out with one model . You are going to be in range of at least 3 rows of boys. Nope sorry your story still doesn't jive.
Ghenghis Jon wrote: I know that the Wraith unit has a 4+ Reanimation Protocol within 12" of the Spyder, but does it have the regular 5+ RP away from it?
No! People havent bridged that gap yet. Its kind if like assuming your grimiore going off perfectly on your daemons everytime...
Also if necrons go second then the buf is not even active on turn one.
Ghenghis Jon wrote: I know that the Wraith unit has a 4+ Reanimation Protocol within 12" of the Spyder, but does it have the regular 5+ RP away from it?
No it doesn't. I know the Canoptek formation that will give them a 5+++, but I think they are adding a second formation in order to boost it to 4+++.
Ghenghis Jon wrote: I know that the Wraith unit has a 4+ Reanimation Protocol within 12" of the Spyder, but does it have the regular 5+ RP away from it?
No! People havent bridged that gap yet. Its kind if like assuming your grimiore going off perfectly on your daemons everytime...
Also if necrons go second then the buf is not even active on turn one.
As if it matters?
They are durable enough even WITHOUT the RP, they simply become unkillable with it.
There is no way you can, at T1, dedicate the needed firepower to kill a whole bunch of T5 W2 3++ units. few things have the range and the power to be a serious threat.
And its far from assuming grimiore. the book has a 1/3 chance to not only not work, but bite you in the ass, the spider just need to keep in range-a decision completely in the hands of the necron player.
Even assuming he had turn 2, the spider is still a T6 W3 3+ unit for 50 points, and that's assuming he is NOT hidden behind something (say, wraiths?). nothing in the game can kill it in a well-budget matter. when the RP turns on it becomes a TMC level of durability for the price of a single TWC.
And if he needs to slow down his wraiths, so freaking what? you still got no chance at all to kill the spider or the wraiths with most armies. the few who does won't get it done within the time limit of wraiths arrival to the enemy lines (T3 at the very worst) and those who got the firepower to hurt them, are unlikely to have a unit that can tarpit them.
Not that there is a tarpit not costing practically the same and CAN hold them off to begin with.
Leaving points aside, I'd rather face a hammernator count equal to the wraiths, spider and scarabs combined than this formation in decurion. it CANNOT be killed, it CANNOT be avoided and it CANNOT be tarpitted by any measures that do not cost far too much and make you fall behind to begin with.
It seems like airplanes are the only thing that will endure it, but airplanes do not win games, not now that the only real "air domination" army was the necrons, and their airforce got reduced to sane levels.
We have been through what, 13 pages here? not a single viable counter came up, the best we did was "not horribly losing"
Destroyers are amazing. I ran 6 Regular 6 Heavy Cult (which I'm going to start calling 6D6H). Lascannons on JSJ bodies are, in a word, amazing.
I also ran Nightbringer in a Conclave. T8 is good. Gaze is good. Eating >1000 points of shooting is not, but it does let the rest of my army get free reign of the board. If it were any army other than Tau, I don't think he would have been able to remove them before Turn 4 at the earliest.
I did the Destroyers + Stalker combo for all the rerolls - unfortunately, when it comes to moving up the field, the Stalker is much slower. I was moving up all my Destroyers to get better firing (lots of cover), and ended up leaving the Stalker behind by Turn 3. But, 2 turns of Heavy Gauss Cannons rerolling violence is great anyway.
BoomWolf wrote: Leaving points aside, I'd rather face a hammernator count equal to the wraiths, spider and scarabs combined than this formation in decurion. it CANNOT be killed, it CANNOT be avoided and it CANNOT be tarpitted by any measures that do not cost far too much and make you fall behind to begin with.
It seems like airplanes are the only thing that will endure it, but airplanes do not win games, not now that the only real "air domination" army was the necrons, and their airforce got reduced to sane levels.
We have been through what, 13 pages here? not a single viable counter came up, the best we did was "not horribly losing"
OMG! Conscripts are so expensive, and the wraiths murder like 7 guardsmen per phase!! They can't be stopped...
But seriously. There are tarpits that can stop them cost-effectively if you've gotten to the point where you just need to throw something at them.
BoomWolf wrote: We have been through what, 13 pages here? not a single viable counter came up, the best we did was "not horribly losing"
3+ Tyranid Flying hive tyrants with devourers will do the trick.
Eldar wave serpents + 2x wraithknight will also do the trick.
Space marine bike army + chapter masters on bike with storm shield will do the trick.
Now that theirs no more "tesla snap shot" going on, it's a lot easier to take necron on, even with the extra wraith-buffs. But if cannot handle 3 x wraith units then the will walk all over you..
BoomWolf wrote: Leaving points aside, I'd rather face a hammernator count equal to the wraiths, spider and scarabs combined than this formation in decurion. it CANNOT be killed, it CANNOT be avoided and it CANNOT be tarpitted by any measures that do not cost far too much and make you fall behind to begin with.
It seems like airplanes are the only thing that will endure it, but airplanes do not win games, not now that the only real "air domination" army was the necrons, and their airforce got reduced to sane levels.
We have been through what, 13 pages here? not a single viable counter came up, the best we did was "not horribly losing"
OMG! Conscripts are so expensive, and the wraiths murder like 7 guardsmen per phase!! They can't be stopped...
But seriously. There are tarpits that can stop them cost-effectively if you've gotten to the point where you just need to throw something at them.
Two problems with that thought:
1-not every army even has access to tarpits in general, let alone anything that can clog down the wraiths for more than a turn or at best two, and in any case conscripts do NOT tarpit them, they are a speedbump at best. without a fearless source they will just run away after a single round, and that is if they even manage to get into combat with the far faster wraiths.
2-even if a true tarpit DOES show up, the scarabs are there to either try a pre-tarpit, or bail out the wraiths. either way-advantage to the necron player.
I trust in conscripts. IG doesn't have any problems with shooting off the scarabs. While conscripts are more than point-efficient to tarpit wraiths for the whole game while still scoring points. And not to put a priest or a comissar into your conscript blob is something i'm yet to see on the table.
Unlike ork greentide that's more of a wrecking ball that costs 1k points, conscripts are a true tarpit that costs 7 times less. A wonderful unit - one of the best for what it does actually. It's only real downside is how much it costs $-wise and that you won't be able to paint them all till retirement. But the first and foremost benefit is that you can put on a comissar hat and scream "Send in the next wave!" while laughing maniacally. It'd be justified.
BoomWolf wrote: Leaving points aside, I'd rather face a hammernator count equal to the wraiths, spider and scarabs combined than this formation in decurion. it CANNOT be killed, it CANNOT be avoided and it CANNOT be tarpitted by any measures that do not cost far too much and make you fall behind to begin with.
It seems like airplanes are the only thing that will endure it, but airplanes do not win games, not now that the only real "air domination" army was the necrons, and their airforce got reduced to sane levels.
We have been through what, 13 pages here? not a single viable counter came up, the best we did was "not horribly losing"
OMG! Conscripts are so expensive, and the wraiths murder like 7 guardsmen per phase!! They can't be stopped...
But seriously. There are tarpits that can stop them cost-effectively if you've gotten to the point where you just need to throw something at them.
Two problems with that thought:
1-not every army even has access to tarpits in general, let alone anything that can clog down the wraiths for more than a turn or at best two, and in any case conscripts do NOT tarpit them, they are a speedbump at best. without a fearless source they will just run away after a single round, and that is if they even manage to get into combat with the far faster wraiths.
2-even if a true tarpit DOES show up, the scarabs are there to either try a pre-tarpit, or bail out the wraiths. either way-advantage to the necron player.
50 Conscripts... +25 point priest = locking two units of wraiths for the rest of the game.
Alcibiades wrote: Well, what GW seems to be doing with both this and the Judicator formation is that the enemy should Shoot the Big Ones.
Kill the Spyder of course. He doesn't have an invulnerable save. With RP (what happened to Fleet and Shred??), it'll take about 7 or 8 lascannon-level hits to kill him (he has 3 wounds, right?), not counting any cover saves he might get.
Pretty tough for a 50 pt model, eh.
.
He'd better be. He's what the whole formation revolves around.
Ghenghis Jon wrote: I know that the Wraith unit has a 4+ Reanimation Protocol within 12" of the Spyder, but does it have the regular 5+ RP away from it?
No! People havent bridged that gap yet. Its kind if like assuming your grimiore going off perfectly on your daemons everytime...
Also if necrons go second then the buf is not even active on turn one.
As if it matters?
They are durable enough even WITHOUT the RP, they simply become unkillable with it.
There is no way you can, at T1, dedicate the needed firepower to kill a whole bunch of T5 W2 3++ units. few things have the range and the power to be a serious threat.
And its far from assuming grimiore. the book has a 1/3 chance to not only not work, but bite you in the ass, the spider just need to keep in range-a decision completely in the hands of the necron player.
Even assuming he had turn 2, the spider is still a T6 W3 3+ unit for 50 points, and that's assuming he is NOT hidden behind something (say, wraiths?). nothing in the game can kill it in a well-budget matter. when the RP turns on it becomes a TMC level of durability for the price of a single TWC.
And if he needs to slow down his wraiths, so freaking what? you still got no chance at all to kill the spider or the wraiths with most armies. the few who does won't get it done within the time limit of wraiths arrival to the enemy lines (T3 at the very worst) and those who got the firepower to hurt them, are unlikely to have a unit that can tarpit them.
Not that there is a tarpit not costing practically the same and CAN hold them off to begin with.
Leaving points aside, I'd rather face a hammernator count equal to the wraiths, spider and scarabs combined than this formation in decurion. it CANNOT be killed, it CANNOT be avoided and it CANNOT be tarpitted by any measures that do not cost far too much and make you fall behind to begin with.
It seems like airplanes are the only thing that will endure it, but airplanes do not win games, not now that the only real "air domination" army was the necrons, and their airforce got reduced to sane levels.
We have been through what, 13 pages here? not a single viable counter came up, the best we did was "not horribly losing"
Further to what you've said I would like to add that the Spyder is a single model and therefore not hard to hide, especially in your deployment zone. Even if you do get first turn against the Wraith player then shooting that Spyder is not a given. You'll need something to deepstrike back field to shoot at it like a drop pod of sternguard and not everybody takes those in their lists.
People in the thread have suggested some counters to mitigate against it but then again foresight is a wonderful thing. You don't always know that you're going to come up against an army list of Wraiths. Suggest using a Wraithknight to tie them up doesn't really help Eldar players who take Wave Serpents and Seer Council on Jetbikes. You might advocate that Wave Serpents can outmanoeuvre them easily along with the Jetbikes but you don't get a lot of space on the table. You not only need to move away from the Wraiths but you also need to keep your Wave Serpent out of range from other units your opponent has and also take care over terrain, so it's not as always easy as just flying past him 18 or 24" without a care in the world. If you are in a corner and the Wraiths are 12" away from you then shooting up the table or even across the table 24" isn't going to take them out of their charge range. Sure it's fine if your whizzing in completely the opposite direction but that is not always possible, especially if your opponent already has another fast moving unit coming down that side of the board.
People in the thread have suggested some counters to mitigate against it but then again foresight is a wonderful thing. You don't always know that you're going to come up against an army list of Wraiths. Suggest using a Wraithknight to tie them up doesn't really help Eldar players who take Wave Serpents and Seer Council on Jetbikes. You might advocate that Wave Serpents can outmanoeuvre them easily along with the Jetbikes but you don't get a lot of space on the table. You not only need to move away from the Wraiths but you also need to keep your Wave Serpent out of range from other units your opponent has and also take care over terrain, so it's not as always easy as just flying past him 18 or 24" without a care in the world. If you are in a corner and the Wraiths are 12" away from you then shooting up the table or even across the table 24" isn't going to take them out of their charge range. Sure it's fine if your whizzing in completely the opposite direction but that is not always possible, especially if your opponent already has another fast moving unit coming down that side of the board.
I can understand if wraiths are going to be a problem for players who take serpents and Jetseer councils, but just because wraiths are a hard match-up for what is a very strong eldar build; doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that. That is the nature of the beast, new dex is out, meta changes. Jetseer lists will have to change, oh woe eldar players they have to stop playing their ultimate stomp face lists because its no longer an uncounterable list.....
If players can't alter their lists to be able to deal with a developing meta then they can't call themselves competitive players. Playing for fun with a list you know is now countered by the new meta is fine, but you can't complain because you chose to do so.
In summary; New dex, new meta, new lists - we may see the end of serpent spam, we may not. time will tell and all will be fine with the world.
Ghenghis Jon wrote: I know that the Wraith unit has a 4+ Reanimation Protocol within 12" of the Spyder, but does it have the regular 5+ RP away from it?
No! People havent bridged that gap yet. Its kind if like assuming your grimiore going off perfectly on your daemons everytime...
Also if necrons go second then the buf is not even active on turn one.
As if it matters?
They are durable enough even WITHOUT the RP, they simply become unkillable with it.
There is no way you can, at T1, dedicate the needed firepower to kill a whole bunch of T5 W2 3++ units. few things have the range and the power to be a serious threat.
And its far from assuming grimiore. the book has a 1/3 chance to not only not work, but bite you in the ass, the spider just need to keep in range-a decision completely in the hands of the necron player.
Even assuming he had turn 2, the spider is still a T6 W3 3+ unit for 50 points, and that's assuming he is NOT hidden behind something (say, wraiths?). nothing in the game can kill it in a well-budget matter. when the RP turns on it becomes a TMC level of durability for the price of a single TWC.
And if he needs to slow down his wraiths, so freaking what? you still got no chance at all to kill the spider or the wraiths with most armies. the few who does won't get it done within the time limit of wraiths arrival to the enemy lines (T3 at the very worst) and those who got the firepower to hurt them, are unlikely to have a unit that can tarpit them.
Not that there is a tarpit not costing practically the same and CAN hold them off to begin with.
Leaving points aside, I'd rather face a hammernator count equal to the wraiths, spider and scarabs combined than this formation in decurion. it CANNOT be killed, it CANNOT be avoided and it CANNOT be tarpitted by any measures that do not cost far too much and make you fall behind to begin with.
It seems like airplanes are the only thing that will endure it, but airplanes do not win games, not now that the only real "air domination" army was the necrons, and their airforce got reduced to sane levels.
We have been through what, 13 pages here? not a single viable counter came up, the best we did was "not horribly losing"
Further to what you've said I would like to add that the Spyder is a single model and therefore not hard to hide, especially in your deployment zone. Even if you do get first turn against the Wraith player then shooting that Spyder is not a given. You'll need something to deepstrike back field to shoot at it like a drop pod of sternguard and not everybody takes those in their lists.
People in the thread have suggested some counters to mitigate against it but then again foresight is a wonderful thing. You don't always know that you're going to come up against an army list of Wraiths. Suggest using a Wraithknight to tie them up doesn't really help Eldar players who take Wave Serpents and Seer Council on Jetbikes. You might advocate that Wave Serpents can outmanoeuvre them easily along with the Jetbikes but you don't get a lot of space on the table. You not only need to move away from the Wraiths but you also need to keep your Wave Serpent out of range from other units your opponent has and also take care over terrain, so it's not as always easy as just flying past him 18 or 24" without a care in the world. If you are in a corner and the Wraiths are 12" away from you then shooting up the table or even across the table 24" isn't going to take them out of their charge range. Sure it's fine if your whizzing in completely the opposite direction but that is not always possible, especially if your opponent already has another fast moving unit coming down that side of the board.
But that also works the other way around..players simply assume that those wraiths get a turn 2 assault and don't think about the 'snake eyes' charge range you will get at sum point. After that the are outside the spider range and get shot to pieces.
I will say it again:
- Daemon FMC list
- Daemon list with herald of khorne + 15 fleshhounds + grimoir + cursed earth
- 2x wraithknight +4-plus wave serpents
- space marine bike army + 2x chapter master with storm shields and thunder hammer
- Tyranid 3+ flying Hive tyrant devourer list
etc...etc...
They're are enough good lists out their that can deal with those wraiths. dont get me wrong..they're good...but without the old "tesla" snapshot backup and the current price increase on barges and flyers the are not overpowered..
No one thinks of snake eyes when it comes to internet discussions. considering we can only talk about the averages.
Its the same line if thinking as saying X is bad because we can roll 1s.
Fact of the matter is Wraiths really haven't changed toooo much. 99% of the issue is the RP that bumps them up to near unkillable. Without it, they die just like they did before to High strength weapons of the ST7 variety everyone has and uses. its just harder to double down now.
If anything we should discuss how to deal with the spider if we wanna get anywhere against the wraiths.
People in the thread have suggested some counters to mitigate against it but then again foresight is a wonderful thing. You don't always know that you're going to come up against an army list of Wraiths. Suggest using a Wraithknight to tie them up doesn't really help Eldar players who take Wave Serpents and Seer Council on Jetbikes. You might advocate that Wave Serpents can outmanoeuvre them easily along with the Jetbikes but you don't get a lot of space on the table. You not only need to move away from the Wraiths but you also need to keep your Wave Serpent out of range from other units your opponent has and also take care over terrain, so it's not as always easy as just flying past him 18 or 24" without a care in the world. If you are in a corner and the Wraiths are 12" away from you then shooting up the table or even across the table 24" isn't going to take them out of their charge range. Sure it's fine if your whizzing in completely the opposite direction but that is not always possible, especially if your opponent already has another fast moving unit coming down that side of the board.
I can understand if wraiths are going to be a problem for players who take serpents and Jetseer councils, but just because wraiths are a hard match-up for what is a very strong eldar build; doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that. That is the nature of the beast, new dex is out, meta changes. Jetseer lists will have to change, oh woe eldar players they have to stop playing their ultimate stomp face lists because its no longer an uncounterable list.....
If players can't alter their lists to be able to deal with a developing meta then they can't call themselves competitive players. Playing for fun with a list you know is now countered by the new meta is fine, but you can't complain because you chose to do so.
In summary; New dex, new meta, new lists - we may see the end of serpent spam, we may not. time will tell and all will be fine with the world.
I was just making an observation in regards to the debate going on. I do think that Wriaths with RP in the Canoptek Harvest formation is just way too survivable. Overall Wraiths are really strong without it so I don't know what on earth they were thinking with that one. However, other than that they are fine the way they are if they don't have RP, with the exception that they are a bit undercosted. I'm thinking another 5-10 points should have been added per model. I don't play competitively as such so it's not a big deal for me. I can hope that I don't come up against it in my friendly games and if I do I'll just need to do the best I can against it.
Well, the T bump makes a lot of S8 weapons not ID them anymore. Last time I fought wraiths, it was a 500 point game, there were three of them, and they mostly dropped to a single-unit's shooting (the last one died to a HoW attack).
Lots of hyperbole thrown around by necron players about how unbeatable wraith lists are. The fact of the matter is I am positive there will be wraith lists at the LVO and I would put money down that there is litterally no chance it will win. I doubt it even makes top 5. There is plenty of hard coubters to the list none of which is list tailoring. The greentide is a clear list that wraiths lists are completely and utterly ineffective against. Go ahead spam 3 harvest detschments and then watch as 18 wraiths and 3 spyders get ground down in 2-3 turns. People keep telling you these hard counters but putting ur fingers in your ears is not going to stop them. Regardless the LVO is happening soon and will surely end this debate about how il unstoppable wraiths are. In a tournament setting they just don't have enough offensive but have fun beating your local players fluffy builds.
Ghenghis Jon wrote: I know that the Wraith unit has a 4+ Reanimation Protocol within 12" of the Spyder, but does it have the regular 5+ RP away from it?
No! People havent bridged that gap yet. Its kind if like assuming your grimiore going off perfectly on your daemons everytime...
Also if necrons go second then the buf is not even active on turn one.
As if it matters?
They are durable enough even WITHOUT the RP, they simply become unkillable with it.
There is no way you can, at T1, dedicate the needed firepower to kill a whole bunch of T5 W2 3++ units. few things have the range and the power to be a serious threat.
And its far from assuming grimiore. the book has a 1/3 chance to not only not work, but bite you in the ass, the spider just need to keep in range-a decision completely in the hands of the necron player.
Even assuming he had turn 2, the spider is still a T6 W3 3+ unit for 50 points, and that's assuming he is NOT hidden behind something (say, wraiths?). nothing in the game can kill it in a well-budget matter. when the RP turns on it becomes a TMC level of durability for the price of a single TWC.
And if he needs to slow down his wraiths, so freaking what? you still got no chance at all to kill the spider or the wraiths with most armies. the few who does won't get it done within the time limit of wraiths arrival to the enemy lines (T3 at the very worst) and those who got the firepower to hurt them, are unlikely to have a unit that can tarpit them.
Not that there is a tarpit not costing practically the same and CAN hold them off to begin with.
Leaving points aside, I'd rather face a hammernator count equal to the wraiths, spider and scarabs combined than this formation in decurion. it CANNOT be killed, it CANNOT be avoided and it CANNOT be tarpitted by any measures that do not cost far too much and make you fall behind to begin with.
It seems like airplanes are the only thing that will endure it, but airplanes do not win games, not now that the only real "air domination" army was the necrons, and their airforce got reduced to sane levels.
We have been through what, 13 pages here? not a single viable counter came up, the best we did was "not horribly losing"
Further to what you've said I would like to add that the Spyder is a single model and therefore not hard to hide, especially in your deployment zone. Even if you do get first turn against the Wraith player then shooting that Spyder is not a given. You'll need something to deepstrike back field to shoot at it like a drop pod of sternguard and not everybody takes those in their lists.
People in the thread have suggested some counters to mitigate against it but then again foresight is a wonderful thing. You don't always know that you're going to come up against an army list of Wraiths. Suggest using a Wraithknight to tie them up doesn't really help Eldar players who take Wave Serpents and Seer Council on Jetbikes. You might advocate that Wave Serpents can outmanoeuvre them easily along with the Jetbikes but you don't get a lot of space on the table. You not only need to move away from the Wraiths but you also need to keep your Wave Serpent out of range from other units your opponent has and also take care over terrain, so it's not as always easy as just flying past him 18 or 24" without a care in the world. If you are in a corner and the Wraiths are 12" away from you then shooting up the table or even across the table 24" isn't going to take them out of their charge range. Sure it's fine if your whizzing in completely the opposite direction but that is not always possible, especially if your opponent already has another fast moving unit coming down that side of the board.
But that also works the other way around..players simply assume that those wraiths get a turn 2 assault and don't think about the 'snake eyes' charge range you will get at sum point. After that the are outside the spider range and get shot to pieces.
I will say it again:
- Daemon FMC list
- Daemon list with herald of khorne + 15 fleshhounds + grimoir + cursed earth
- 2x wraithknight +4-plus wave serpents
- space marine bike army + 2x chapter master with storm shields and thunder hammer
- Tyranid 3+ flying Hive tyrant devourer list
etc...etc...
They're are enough good lists out their that can deal with those wraiths. dont get me wrong..they're good...but without the old "tesla" snapshot backup and the current price increase on barges and flyers the are not overpowered.
In the example I gave previously they were 12" away from the Wave Serpent. The Wraiths can move 12" and only need 2" to assault. If the cornered Wave Serpent moves 24" up the table they are still 12" away from the Wraiths, just in the opposite direction and if they move 12" across the board then they are still 12" away, just in another direction. Try to think of it like a right angled triangle with a height of 24" and a length of 24" with the Wave Serpent being in the corner of the right angle. If the Wraiths are placed 12" up the height and 12" along lengthways then their isn't any way for the Wave Serpent to get out of charge range next turn.
I also understand that it's not always going to be the case that this situation will arise but I'm just pointing out that it's not a foregone conclusion that Wave Serpents are going to easily outmanoeuvre the Wraiths. There is only so much space on a table to move. I tend to play on boards that are 4x4 or 6x4 so perhaps that isn't necessarily the case with some of the other players here. In addition the Wraiths are survivable enough to last in order to survive for a few turns before they get the charge. I agree that it's not going to be every game that Wraiths get a 2nd turn charge, they might get a poor run move or something but they are actually durable enough to last 3 or more turns anyway. As I said earlier on, if the harvest formation is in effect it takes 21 lascannon shots to kill one of those Wraiths. It used to take 18 Lascannon shots to kill the 5th edition Sanguinor when he had a 3++ save. Now just imagine a whole unit with a 3++ save coming towards you with T5 and 12 wounds (4 times that of the Sanguinor), that's a heck of a lot of Lascannon shots that is going to be need to take care of that. You could try small arms fire but with the boost in toughness, small arms fire is now less effective than it was previously against Wraiths. Now imagine if your opponent takes 3 squads of 6 of these, even without using the formation. You now have 36 3++ T5 wounds to take care of. I could work it out for you if you want but lets just say that it will take a massive amount of firepower if you want to kill those things, even without 4+++ RP.
gungo wrote: Lots of hyperbole thrown around by necron players about how unbeatable wraith lists are. The fact of the matter is I am positive there will be wraith lists at the LVO and I would put money down that there is litterally no chance it will win. I doubt it even makes top 5. There is plenty of hard coubters to the list none of which is list tailoring. The greentide is a clear list that wraiths lists are completely and utterly ineffective against. Go ahead spam 3 harvest detschments and then watch as 18 wraiths and 3 spyders get ground down in 2-3 turns. People keep telling you these hard counters but putting ur fingers in your ears is not going to stop them. Regardless the LVO is happening soon and will surely end this debate about how il unstoppable wraiths are. In a tournament setting they just don't have enough offensive but have fun beating your local players fluffy builds.
Hyperbole?
We literally mathed it out. you need an OBSCENE amount of damage to take out a unit.
that is mathematically fact.
Im at least glad people are running green tide, though i haven't seen one in forever.
Edit: as well not sure which ones do but some Tournies out right ban Formations and the like. Will need to see how they handle crons.
gungo wrote: Lots of hyperbole thrown around by necron players about how unbeatable wraith lists are. The fact of the matter is I am positive there will be wraith lists at the LVO and I would put money down that there is litterally no chance it will win. I doubt it even makes top 5. There is plenty of hard coubters to the list none of which is list tailoring. The greentide is a clear list that wraiths lists are completely and utterly ineffective against. Go ahead spam 3 harvest detschments and then watch as 18 wraiths and 3 spyders get ground down in 2-3 turns. People keep telling you these hard counters but putting ur fingers in your ears is not going to stop them. Regardless the LVO is happening soon and will surely end this debate about how il unstoppable wraiths are. In a tournament setting they just don't have enough offensive but have fun beating your local players fluffy builds.
Tournament wise I am actually expecting Wraith lists to not have the RP from the harvest formation. They will consist of some wraiths and the army will be filled with other things to take care of things like greentide.
I fought 2 minimim sized formations of them so only 6 wraiths and omfg i was wrong about them in my initial assessment.
I played a less competitive list to give my buddy a fun game and not do any eldar cheese... i was wrong to do that i got decimated, he went first so i had 1 shooting phase before they assulted basically. On one side i had 3 vipers with 2 Shurikin Cannons each and 2 war walkers with 2 Scatter Lasers. I killed 1 of the 3.... not enough.
In the other flank i poured in like 15 guardians and a ton of other fire from my wraithknight and others and killed 1... not enough again.
Granted my army was not fully optimized and i did make it that way thinking i dont want to be cheesy the first outing with my buddys new crons. I told him im not holding back now that his army is signifigantly buffed. I hope he dosnt run 2 sets of that formation alot cause even with my A game eldar its still going to be tough. Thats only with 6! i can only imagine 9+ wraiths with reanimation.
Cause the whole game i didnt touch any of his warriors or immortals, i blew up a doomsday arc but not its 2 ahhnialation barge escorts, and i instagibbed his scarabs with my wraithknight in combat by steping on them but he was chiped down a bit by them.
One reason i got decemated is i outflanked a serpent with scorpians and that was way too much points off the table. They didnt come on till t4 when i was basically tabled then...
Pdogg614 wrote: I fought 2 minimim sized formations of them so only 6 wraiths and omfg i was wrong about them in my initial assessment.
I played a less competitive list to give my buddy a fun game and not do any eldar cheese... i was wrong to do that i got decimated, he went first so i had 1 shooting phase before they assulted basically. On one side i had 3 vipers with 2 Shurikin Cannons each and 2 war walkers with 2 Scatter Lasers. I killed 1 of the 3.... not enough.
In the other flank i poured in like 15 guardians and a ton of other fire from my wraithknight and others and killed 1... not enough again.
Granted my army was not fully optimized and i did make it that way thinking i dont want to be cheesy the first outing with my buddys new crons. I told him im not holding back now that his army is signifigantly buffed. I hope he dosnt run 2 sets of that formation alot cause even with my A game eldar its still going to be tough. Thats only with 6! i can only imagine 9+ wraiths with reanimation.
Ask to play him full cheese and bring out all the eldar toys
Then come back with an assessment
Its pretty much the same with my game against 4 of those bugger formations.
Pdogg614 wrote: I fought 2 minimim sized formations of them so only 6 wraiths and omfg i was wrong about them in my initial assessment.
I played a less competitive list to give my buddy a fun game and not do any eldar cheese... i was wrong to do that i got decimated, he went first so i had 1 shooting phase before they assulted basically. On one side i had 3 vipers with 2 Shurikin Cannons each and 2 war walkers with 2 Scatter Lasers. I killed 1 of the 3.... not enough.
In the other flank i poured in like 15 guardians and a ton of other fire from my wraithknight and others and killed 1... not enough again.
Granted my army was not fully optimized and i did make it that way thinking i dont want to be cheesy the first outing with my buddys new crons. I told him im not holding back now that his army is signifigantly buffed. I hope he dosnt run 2 sets of that formation alot cause even with my A game eldar its still going to be tough. Thats only with 6! i can only imagine 9+ wraiths with reanimation.
Ask to play him full cheese and bring out all the eldar toys
Then come back with an assessment
Its pretty much the same with my game against 4 of those bugger formations.
I do think with more serpent dakka it would help, is there any eldar counter assult unit that could be reccomended to intercept them i cant think of any that would be effiecient enough to be worth throwing at them lol.
Probably not. you need some sort of High WS or Large Fearless unit to deal with them for a bit. thats pretty much the only way to deal with them besides out right Focusing your entire army on them one at a time.
OK, so I had to go there and I had to work it out and now I am cringing. To take care of 36 full wounds of off wraiths and this is without RP I have worked it will take the following weapons the corresponding amount of shots to take off the full 36 wounds.
No offence but I don't think my full army list has in it the amount of shots needed to take care of those 36 wounds. Even if I get 100 rapid firing marines it would take me 2 and a half turns just to take out the Wraiths alone and lets be honest here, I am not going to have 100 rapid firing marines in my list.
Desubot wrote: Double that in that silly formation spider duran duran thing ><
Yep, I'm starting to see how ridiculous the new wraiths are going to be. It's worse that I initially thought. Time to start crying.
Wow... Is MSU really that foreign to you?
Go ahead spend 3 turns getting a charge onto my transport that costs 13% what your unit costs. Then spend another turn charging a combat squad thats 26% your unit cost, then after that you can try for the other combat squad. Good job it's taken you 5 turns to earn back 2/3rds your price piont, oh btw my units also only take up one slot and have super scoring.
Formation wraiths have a tax of 2 units with the exact same issues making that cost ratio worse.
why waste shots and time shooting the wraiths, ignore them.
Desubot wrote: Double that in that silly formation spider duran duran thing ><
Yep, I'm starting to see how ridiculous the new wraiths are going to be. It's worse that I initially thought. Time to start crying.
Pepls will keep hand waiving it off has hyperbole though
No, stop making ignorant remarks at other posters. People aren't saying they are not insanely durable, people are saying they lack the tools and price efficiency to win games on objectives.
Desubot wrote: Double that in that silly formation spider duran duran thing ><
Yep, I'm starting to see how ridiculous the new wraiths are going to be. It's worse that I initially thought. Time to start crying.
Pepls will keep hand waiving it off has hyperbole though
No, stop making ignorant remarks at other posters. People aren't saying they are not insanely durable, people are saying they lack the tools and price efficiency to win games on objectives.
1) It was supposed to be sarcastic. 2) There ARE people stating that Wraiths are not OP or over blown.
People keep calling it a TAX but Seriously When did having a bunch of Fast moving low profile units become a tax. Its flippin insane that they can run around nabbin objectives like its no ones business while they send the other half of there EXCEPTIONALLY Fast army to force your plays. Sure you can kill off the Spider, but its still a In your face Super fast unit of High T wraiths coming to face punch you while you do. (Edit: not really face punch but lock your Threats)
1. This is a tactics thread and while humor is welcome, single line posts that contribute nothing but your sarcasm are not OK. They are considered spam.
2. Its a tax because it isn't cheap and still lacks obsec all while not being as mobile as you suggest. Seriously how do you figure 3 t3 scarab bases are tough? Even with 4+ RP people will use ID on them meaning they have a 5++ to save whats effectively 3 wounds, 4 after the spyder makes a base if they go first. EVERY TAC army I own has a way to snipe such units. Either DPods, thunderfires, scalpel squadrons or other wise. That's giving me FB. If your too busy hiding them AND that spyder then yes they are a tax because they are doing little to nothing and costing you 110 points minimum. The spyder will hide at deployment if possible, then he very much needs to just play chase, if you want to farm scarabs they need to play chase as well, that's hardly a flexible/tactical group.
I also refer to it as a tax because a smart player isn't going to shoot at even CAD wraiths which are already too durable to be worth it, so the idea of necron players paying to make an already ignored unit MORE ignorable is just pointless to me. Consider this:
Necron decurion: 479
canoptek Harvest: 368
That's 847 and the necron troops have no transports and its a naked overlord, oh and the tomb blades are naked as well. Looking at nearly half of a tournament level list and it has almost no shooting lol.
The issue is that wraiths are just so damn effecient for what they bring to the army. The opponent having a durable unit that can get into your boardside and pick off anything it wants and you cant do anything about it is insane. If you try you most likely have let the rest of his almost as durable(in a decurion) units reign free and the necron shooting pick apart anything else in the game too now with gauss now wounding on 6.
I used to be able to focus them down t1 still using most of my firepower in the last dex but now trying that in the new one feel like you just need to get lucky. The fact that it takes 12 wounds to successfully take one down on average that more than a full serpent worth of shooting to take even 1 down.
Pdogg614 wrote: The issue is that wraiths are just so damn effecient for what they bring to the army. The opponent having a durable unit that can get into your boardside and pick off anything it wants and you cant do anything about it is insane.
Greatly blown out of proportion.
They hardly kill anything in one go unless its something like a combat squad.
Combat Squad= MSU
MSU > Then 258 pt units that can only assault one well positioned target at a time.
I still think it's a MASSIVE fallacy to still even be considering the canoptek harvest.
Why bother taking the formation when you can just get 18 coil-wraiths for <800 points? Wraiths are insanely durable even without the 4+ RP and 18 of them is a threat-level that no army can handle.
The harvest formation is an expensive honey-trap, and for the purposes of this thread its nothing more than a red herring for the skeptics to latch onto.
BlaxicanX wrote: I still think it's a MASSIVE fallacy to still even be considering the canoptek harvest.
Why bother taking the formation when you can just get 18 coil-wraiths for <800 points? Wraiths are insanely durable even without the 4+ RP and 18 of them is a threat-level that no army can handle.
The harvest formation is an expensive honey-trap, and for the purposes of this thread its nothing more than a red herring for the skeptics to latch onto.
Exactly. My strategy for wraiths is to use MSU and ignore them, I would be WAY more excited to see someone wasting points to increase their druability since they won't use it.
I am happier now either way however since overall, wraith spam lost the fire support it once had. Or at least until some other option is discovered thats been missed. NS and AB combined with the new 10 warrior min makes a big impact after you add up multiple units.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: Assault an msu t3
And t4
And t5
On average, and t6
258/4 = 64.5
Most codexes have something in that price range, but building an entire army out of them?
And you can't counter by just throwing in a few of them. Wraiths have a wide threatrange to pick their targets from.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (This thread reminds me of ones from when the Serpent Shield rules leaked...)
Well considering marines can choose to combat squad between games it's not like it is a hard design choice. Look at most of the current tyranid lists in their thread if you don't believe me. It's all ripper swarms, mutalids and min genestealers/lictors. Orks and IG have obvious answers. DE almost exclusively does MSU...
You also don't throw anything at the wraiths to counter them, you simple play the objectives. I don't get why it's hard to understand. I passively let you do your thing while I do mine. Your high cost unit can only attack me in small bites, in a game with very finite turns you won't cover your price tag. It's the whole principle of MSU and why it's been used for editions now.
Pdogg614 wrote: The issue is that wraiths are just so damn effecient for what they bring to the army. The opponent having a durable unit that can get into your boardside and pick off anything it wants and you cant do anything about it is insane.
Greatly blown out of proportion.
They hardly kill anything in one go unless its something like a combat squad.
Combat Squad= MSU
MSU > Then 258 pt units that can only assault one well positioned target at a time.
Red, I feel your pain.
Every single reply is; oh no, they are so tough.... I need 1bazillion grot blasta shots to wipe those 18 wraiths....
It has already been realised they are durable, hence why tactical discussion has moved away from 'can I kill them in turn 1 shooting' (which by the way the answer appears to be no, thank you to the 1gazillion posts with mathematics pointing out how many shots every gun in the game takes to kill X number of wraiths, I have memorised it all and never fear it shall be put to good use.)
It has been stated that more than likely we will have to deal with them another way. Maybe thats tarpit, maybe its ignore them, maybe its a combination of shooting and tarpitting, maybe its a combination of all three? who knows, we haven't had enough posts or time thinking about anything other than how durable they are....
With my orks I plan on feeding a nice large blob; with a painboy possibly, into the wraiths. If I can I will attempt to charge and only get a few into initial combat, as even if I lose the BP in general barring poor luck (which I can ignore considering this is MATHEMATICS! and AVERAGES!! cos every game is statistically average right??). That way with pile ins i'll get a few extra turns tarpitting. I can also screen with grots, by keeping them close enough to prevent wraithflight; but thats easier said than done.
With my DE/CWE I plan on sitting backfield and screaming as they get closer and closer until my head explodes cos I couldn't shoot them off the board.....
With my DE/CWE I plan on sitting backfield and screaming as they get closer and closer until my head explodes cos I couldn't shoot them off the board.....
Even Combat Squadded in a naked rhino or pod, most combat squadded Tac squad loadouts are still too expensive to lose four of in a game to a 258 point unit.
And with Wraith mobility, practically your entire army needs to average less than 64.5 pts/squad.
Games don't always follow the numbers, but some rules just push some options off the charts.
I'm glad Wraiths arent easily all shot off the table in one round, but when the most OP gunboat in the game takes more than 6 rounds of shooting to kill fewer points of wraiths -despite using the right kind of weaponry (mid-S, high-AP, high-ROF) - I think its a bit off.
Bharring wrote: Even Combat Squadded in a naked rhino or pod, most combat squadded Tac squad loadouts are still too expensive to lose four of in a game to a 258 point unit.
And with Wraith mobility, practically your entire army needs to average less than 64.5 pts/squad.
I forgot, wraiths are all in combat by t2 latest and they blender every target in 1-2 combats. They also somehow do this while multi assaulting every charge. Btw every charge is always a doughy 5-7 inches and never fails either....
Wraith spam armies weren't overly difficult for my marine army before the update, and I just ignored them. The toughest part were the spammed NS and AB's actually. So now they are T5...great I still wont shoot them. Now tell me whats changed to make them able to cause more damage then before?
All I see are less tesla weapons.
Most rhino heavy marine lists are white scars or raven guard since you can get massed scout/ or hit and run/scout with Khan. The ability to outflank and be all over the table makes it a seriously tough task for 3 units of wraiths to achieve. I guess you could go for my Tfire canons lol, because thats totally worth using a wraith unit against, or maybe my storm talons... oh wait, that's right. I guess that leaves my cent unit, oh wait it has a tanking chapter master with hit and run, nope. Best unit you could disable would be the IK paladin a take on occasion, but you don't need three units for that.
I think 1-2 wraith units from a CAD really is the sweet spot. It just doesn't suffer from as many bad match ups.
@Solar Shock, yea definitely man. Don't worry are DE love running MSU, the biggest issue for them will be when we take elite formations that also cost ~300 points. Just need to use aether sails to avoid them for a few turns and drag them back into their own deployment zone.
BlaxicanX wrote: I still think it's a MASSIVE fallacy to still even be considering the canoptek harvest.
Why bother taking the formation when you can just get 18 coil-wraiths for <800 points? Wraiths are insanely durable even without the 4+ RP and 18 of them is a threat-level that no army can handle.
The harvest formation is an expensive honey-trap, and for the purposes of this thread its nothing more than a red herring for the skeptics to latch onto.
Exactly what I thought. And you also dont need 18 of them. Even two units will put a lot of pressure on your enemy, while you can max out on your big guns.
The problem with all the "solutions" presented here is that people think of an optimal situation with a stupid necron player on the other side.
I mean, most tarpits can be avoided by a unit, that moves 12" and ignores every terrain. Normally they pick their targets. I also think, that you can get enough firepower to kill a cheap 50 guys tarpit (Tesla, some blasts) for 1000 Points (suggesting you take 18 wraith without the decurion ).
MSU? Someone stated, they have to assault a 35 Point Transport, for 1 round, to get the 70 point passangers in the next turn... yeah seems like agood plan... but what if he opens the transport with a big gun or alot of gauss and gets the passangers already in the first run? 3 charges to get his points almost back ...
And also dont forget, this game is about objectives. He dont need the wraith to get their points back. He can just place them on three objectives and let the rest of the army care for the other ones(As Long as the enemy has not to much objective secure Units).
To sum it up: I havent seen any solution that really convinced me. I am very interested how Necrons will do on tournaments and what solution the real competitive guys will find.
Those numbers were for units of 6 wraiths, with them not getting an assault until turn 3...
I haven't run the numbers, but the odds of a 5-man Tac squad holding a 6-man Wraith squad for more than 2 rounds seems... slim.
And the idea that Marines just have to concede their backfield, use airpower to stay in the game, and hope outflankers stay in Reserves long enough to survive just seems wrong...
Bharring wrote: Those numbers were for units of 6 wraiths, with them not getting an assault until turn 3...
I haven't run the numbers, but the odds of a 5-man Tac squad holding a 6-man Wraith squad for more than 2 rounds seems... slim.
And the idea that Marines just have to concede their backfield, use airpower to stay in the game, and hope outflankers stay in Reserves long enough to survive just seems wrong...
I agree, this seems like a battle you are going to eventually loose if you have a unit(s) in your backfield t2 chewing up tac squads you have to feed them. There is still going to be a whole lot more nectrons shooting your other stuff while caping objectives.
Bharring wrote: Even Combat Squadded in a naked rhino or pod, most combat squadded Tac squad loadouts are still too expensive to lose four of in a game to a 258 point unit.
And with Wraith mobility, practically your entire army needs to average less than 64.5 pts/squad.
Games don't always follow the numbers, but some rules just push some options off the charts.
I'm glad Wraiths arent easily all shot off the table in one round, but when the most OP gunboat in the game takes more than 6 rounds of shooting to kill fewer points of wraiths -despite using the right kind of weaponry (mid-S, high-AP, high-ROF) - I think its a bit off.
(Assuming no RP, of course)
You're also assuming they get 4 assaults. Most armies aren't evenly spread accross the board. If an army splits up the wraiths might mulch half of it then find themselves 24" away from their next target. They might run into a unit that they can't kill in one round, and then all the surrounding targets are gone. Rhinos cost 35 points, and if you want a spyder to keep up with them, moving 12" then charging is going to leave the spyder behind sooner or later, doubly so if you try to keep the spyder in cover.
The wraiths themselves get 24 attacks on the charge, 12 hits vs. WS4, so two rends, 8 normal wounds vs. MEQ. That's just shy of 10 marines across two rounds. If you charge a full 10 man squad, there's a chance you'll be tied up for a second turn. If that squad charges you, you will be locked up on your next assault phase allowing nearby units to run.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I don't generally field the Uriah Jacobus + 20 Sisters Blob, but it seems like they'd hard counter wraiths too. Toss in a guy who can make the priest buffs guaranteed each turn, and the initial charge gets 16 hits = 2.66 rends, 10.66 wounds = about 2.33 dead sisters of battle. Subsequent turns get you under 2.
Also, a 22 model unit could form a line stretching across the whole table. I don't really get how you say wraiths can avoid tarpits. (Well, maybe tarpits that are small tough units like crusaders.)
A 50 man conscript squad can fill over 4 square feet at max spread. Two of those wrapped around your other units and it's literally impossible for the enemy to land anywhere next to any other squad. (Or more realistically, a platoon + its conscript squad. 400 pts)
But your 258pt unit is killing 8/10ths of the 140+ pt unit in a single game turn. If it takes you two, you've still recovered most of your points.
Rhinos were factored in at 35pts. They definitely help, but only if you can actually force the Wraiths to attack them.
If you're not running the formation, do you really need the spider in range?
Average consolidate is 3.5 inches in any direction. Average fleet charge is 9". So, on average, you just need anything within 24.5" to charge. Seems like a huge zone of board control.
Ya know at the same time knowing that you are only going against a rhino and tac marines, you could always keep your spider back and not worry about the 4+++ even though its nice considering the chances of just getting through t5 3++ is difficult as it is already. then you now have extra bodies to do objective things or prep a charge some where else or any number of other options.
Desubot wrote: Double that in that silly formation spider duran duran thing ><
Yep, I'm starting to see how ridiculous the new wraiths are going to be. It's worse that I initially thought. Time to start crying.
Wow... Is MSU really that foreign to you?
Go ahead spend 3 turns getting a charge onto my transport that costs 13% what your unit costs. Then spend another turn charging a combat squad thats 26% your unit cost, then after that you can try for the other combat squad. Good job it's taken you 5 turns to earn back 2/3rds your price piont, oh btw my units also only take up one slot and have super scoring.
Or the necron player could just use his very durable wraiths, which you yourself admit are durable to go and claim objectives.
Formation wraiths have a tax of 2 units with the exact same issues making that cost ratio worse.
why waste shots and time shooting the wraiths, ignore them.
So you missed the part where I wasn't even talking about the formation Wraiths. I was talking about the normal Wraiths as in codex WITHOUT reanimation protocols.
No, stop making ignorant remarks at other posters. People aren't saying they are not insanely durable, people are saying they lack the tools and price efficiency to win games on objectives.
So you admit they are durable and very hard to kill but think they are unable to claim those objectives for themselves.
Please tell me your master plan when those 3 units of wraiths costing 810pts chase objectives and kill whats on them while the rest of his 2000 point army blows you to smithereens?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Red Corsair wrote: 1. This is a tactics thread and while humor is welcome, single line posts that contribute nothing but your sarcasm are not OK. They are considered spam.
2. Its a tax because it isn't cheap and still lacks obsec all while not being as mobile as you suggest. Seriously how do you figure 3 t3 scarab bases are tough? Even with 4+ RP people will use ID on them meaning they have a 5++ to save whats effectively 3 wounds, 4 after the spyder makes a base if they go first. EVERY TAC army I own has a way to snipe such units. Either DPods, thunderfires, scalpel squadrons or other wise. That's giving me FB. If your too busy hiding them AND that spyder then yes they are a tax because they are doing little to nothing and costing you 110 points minimum. The spyder will hide at deployment if possible, then he very much needs to just play chase, if you want to farm scarabs they need to play chase as well, that's hardly a flexible/tactical group.
I also refer to it as a tax because a smart player isn't going to shoot at even CAD wraiths which are already too durable to be worth it, so the idea of necron players paying to make an already ignored unit MORE ignorable is just pointless to me. Consider this:
Necron decurion: 479
canoptek Harvest: 368
That's 847 and the necron troops have no transports and its a naked overlord, oh and the tomb blades are naked as well. Looking at nearly half of a tournament level list and it has almost no shooting lol.
In my calcs there was no tax. It takes on average 194 Lascannon shots to kill 18 Wraiths WITHOUT reanimation protocols. Are you getting the picture yet? Let me show you.
Now that is a ridiculous amount of firepower needed in order to take care of 810 points worth of an army.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BlaxicanX wrote: I still think it's a MASSIVE fallacy to still even be considering the canoptek harvest.
Why bother taking the formation when you can just get 18 coil-wraiths for <800 points? Wraiths are insanely durable even without the 4+ RP and 18 of them is a threat-level that no army can handle.
The harvest formation is an expensive honey-trap, and for the purposes of this thread its nothing more than a red herring for the skeptics to latch onto.
Exactly, and that's what my calcs were based on and for some reason Red Corsair hasn't noticed that. It's 810 points worth of models that will seek out 3 objectives and claim them while the rest of the necron army does it's thing.
Trust me, necrons will be top tier by the looks of it. I can see them winning tournaments now in a good amount.
I can only talk for a Tau army but how would this fare against the wraiths.
First off this is very dependent on terrain and deployment of units. Get a unit of tetra put at least 2 marker token on the spyder. Have 2 skyrays each use 1 marker and nuke the spyder, the skyray themselves could use their own markers if the situation presents itself. 12 S8 and AP3 at BS5 should be enough to kill it out right. Then have the rest of your army just blast the wraiths with volume of fire.
Wraiths without RP are really not much different then they were before the new codex.
Furthermore why shoot las cannons at a wraiths when str7/str8 spam is just as effective. A basic lascannon shot isn't the greatest weapon anymore, unless your trying to take hill points off av14 tanks. Most armies spam autocannons (or in tau case misssle spam) for a reason. Not that I would fight wraith spam with a shooting match unless I was playing Mek guard(which isn't super competitve), but I surely wouldn't spam lascannons regardless.
As I said before good luck trying to pound your wraithspam through my greentide. If you think shooting through them is the answer before your wraiths assault good luck you have to contend with t4,4+, 5++, 5+++ fnp fearless models that are worth a whooping 6 points. It's an attrition game I'm prepared to win. You need every wraith to kill over 7 Orc boyz just to make its own point cost back.
And as I said before you play wraith spam because your trying to win at all costs it's not a beer and pretzel list. It's spamming your best unit over and over. The harvest detachment is pricey and has hard counters and it's not likely to win any tourneys. Which leads you back to what others were saying wraiths by themselves are great and do the same exact job outside the harvest detschment for significantly less points. Leaving more points for support. Necrons are a top tier codex, but harvest detschment spam is only going to beat your local clubs fluff lists. As I said before LVO is a over a week away and I fully expect a wraith spam list there and I fully expect it won't get very far. Wraiths are still overpowered but they are not unbeatable.
Bharring wrote: Even Combat Squadded in a naked rhino or pod, most combat squadded Tac squad loadouts are still too expensive to lose four of in a game to a 258 point unit.
And with Wraith mobility, practically your entire army needs to average less than 64.5 pts/squad.
I forgot, wraiths are all in combat by t2 latest and they blender every target in 1-2 combats. They also somehow do this while multi assaulting every charge. Btw every charge is always a doughy 5-7 inches and never fails either....
Wraith spam armies weren't overly difficult for my marine army before the update, and I just ignored them. The toughest part were the spammed NS and AB's actually. So now they are T5...great I still wont shoot them. Now tell me whats changed to make them able to cause more damage then before?
All I see are less tesla weapons.
Most rhino heavy marine lists are white scars or raven guard since you can get massed scout/ or hit and run/scout with Khan. The ability to outflank and be all over the table makes it a seriously tough task for 3 units of wraiths to achieve. I guess you could go for my Tfire canons lol, because thats totally worth using a wraith unit against, or maybe my storm talons... oh wait, that's right. I guess that leaves my cent unit, oh wait it has a tanking chapter master with hit and run, nope. Best unit you could disable would be the IK paladin a take on occasion, but you don't need three units for that.
I think 1-2 wraith units from a CAD really is the sweet spot. It just doesn't suffer from as many bad match ups.
@Solar Shock, yea definitely man. Don't worry are DE love running MSU, the biggest issue for them will be when we take elite formations that also cost ~300 points. Just need to use aether sails to avoid them for a few turns and drag them back into their own deployment zone.
These are my thoughts exactly. Wraiths are amazing, a fast, durable, good damage Assault unit. Almost everything an Assault focused unit can ask for. But, they're a dedicated assault unit in a game that's (at the moment) about map control and shooting. So yeah, in dream game, they'll survive across the board, charge turn 2, win before their turn 3, and repeat ad infinitum. But that's really not the case. Either they'll get caught in a combat, or the enemy will maneuver around them, or they'll miss a charge (yes, happens even with fleet), etc etc.
I like having an assault unit for jumping on juicy targets. But I'm way more partial to shooting squads, since we're Necrons and not Daemons.
Martel732 wrote: I still like lascannons because of their ranged power against 2+ armor. However, wraiths are a terrible target for them.
Personally, I'm liking naked Sternguard more and more.
I see your point. I tend to play horde armies hence Orks and guard so I iust rely on weight of fire/atks to kill units like terminators. Nothing like watching a marine player drop a pod filled with terminators into my deployment zone and seeing a 30+ man combined platoon squad frf srf in rapid fire range wipe them off the board. That really shouldn't happen but there is probably some happy medium between a 40 point terminator and a 40 point wraith were both of these units should be.
Bharring wrote: But your 258pt unit is killing 8/10ths of the 140+ pt unit in a single game turn. If it takes you two, you've still recovered most of your points.
Rhinos were factored in at 35pts. They definitely help, but only if you can actually force the Wraiths to attack them.
If you're not running the formation, do you really need the spider in range?
Average consolidate is 3.5 inches in any direction. Average fleet charge is 9". So, on average, you just need anything within 24.5" to charge. Seems like a huge zone of board control.
Tautastic wrote: I can only talk for a Tau army but how would this fare against the wraiths.
First off this is very dependent on terrain and deployment of units. Get a unit of tetra put at least 2 marker token on the spyder. Have 2 skyrays each use 1 marker and nuke the spyder, the skyray themselves could use their own markers if the situation presents itself. 12 S8 and AP3 at BS5 should be enough to kill it out right. Then have the rest of your army just blast the wraiths with volume of fire.
Buying the Spyders is unnecessary though. What we worked out is that it takes a ridiculous amount of firepower to kill them. Here let me show you:
With BS5, i.e. Meaning you have had 2 markerlights per turn on the wraiths.
So I guess the question is how many Broadsides are you taking? Cause one unit gives you 12 HYMP shots a turn and 12 SMS shots a turn. So 3 units of Broadsides will give you 36 HYMP shots a turn and 36 SMS shots a turn. So two turns of shooting will cause 31.11 wounds overall with those Broadsides providing they have BS5. The Broadsides cost 65pts each and then you have the Pathfinders on top to aid you hitting on 2's. You'll come out at a cost roundabout the same as the wraiths.
Of course in theory here you need to count on a few things for this to all work. Firstly you get BS5 and you get it against all 3 units of wraiths. Secondly you don't lose any Broadside models in the process over the two turns or your pathfinders for that matter as well and lastly that the Necron player doesn't have anything he can throw backfield quickly to distract you or take out the Broadsides.
9 hits, 1.5 penetrating hits that can't explode you.
in return, charging ork deff dread with 4CCW dishes out 7 attacks, 4 hits, ~3 insta killing wounds, 1 dead wraith.
wraiths being 43 points each and deffdreads equipped like this being 100 points each, a unit of 6 wraiths (258 points) gets you 2 and-a-half deff dreads equipped like this.
Onto maulerfiends, AV12 WS3, but with -2 attacks to base contact models (assuming 3 wraiths out of 6 reduced to 1) and a 5++.
12 attacks, 8 hits, ~1 pen with a 5++ to stop it that can't blow the maulerfiend up.
maulerfiend has 4 attacks on the charge, 2 hit, 2 wound, possibly one dead wraith. but next turn, the wraiths get 1 attack each. they're stuck.
Next thought is the tzeenchian souldgrinder, which I personally hate.
AV13, 5++ rerolling 1's, 5 attacks I think?
so 18 attacks, 12 hit, 2 rend, of which 0.6 glance and 1.4 pen, one a model with 4 HP. so again, it doesn't die.
then he attacks back and kills one.
Personally I favour the maulerfiend. it's fast enough to catch them, will almost certainly survive them, and drops their attacks to negligible. same effect on any character who tries to charge in with a warscythe to save the wraiths and whoops, he missed with his one attack, stomp stomp.
They are Necrons IIRC they have that entropic strike that auto glances on 6 IIRC even though at ST6 they should be able to rend out HP anyway. and without a save its gona be hard.
I guess a Invisibile Ironclad or one with a power field/forewarning could work well.
That being said, Str 6 rending will Pen AV12 walkers for a chance to remove their close combat weapon (typically denying their IDing strength or Immobilize them (typically making it way easier to hurt them).
AV12 Walkers are not your best bet. Even the AV 13 Ironclad will eventually get glanced to death in a round or two of combat.
I think in my theory craft exercises the best results have come from applying Rad Grenades or Enfeeble. This brings down their ID threshold and helps lower S weapons which have high RoF not suck.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Pretty much every wound is the same vs. 3++, but one that IDs is 2.5x as effective. 2 wounds with 4+++ -> 1 wound with 5+++.
-1 T makes S4 50% more effective (-33% of shots required)
My solution to wraiths is the same as my solution to riptides and serpents; make people feel like they're TFG for running more than a smidgen of them.
As BA that's probably my only gameplan against a balanced decurion that runs a harvest or two as vanguard units. :(
I still lol at people who are suggesting multiple wk's an entire GREEN TIDE, and other such silliness to combat 1/8 of the enemy army. Like the rest of their army is just standing there cheering them on, I guess?
I still lol at people who are suggesting multiple wk's an entire GREEN TIDE, and other such silliness to combat 1/8 of the enemy army. Like the rest of their army is just standing there cheering them on, I guess?
I LOL at people that think three 258 point units = 1/8 of an army.
I still lol at people who are suggesting multiple wk's an entire GREEN TIDE, and other such silliness to combat 1/8 of the enemy army. Like the rest of their army is just standing there cheering them on, I guess?
I LOL at people that think three 258 point units = 1/8 of an army.
I play 2k games. What fraction would YOU round it to?
Automatically Appended Next Post: OT It's not the wraiths or wraith spam that really scare me.
It's a necron tac list that uses a cheap harvest or two to screen/counter-assault/vanguard played by a halfway competent player. (Seriously, not all necron players are bad generals guys.)
With the new resilience of super feel no pain, I think my army's only realistic shot is sweeping advances, and to do that I need to get guys past the canoptek shield units in high enough numbers.
The entire purpose of the greentide is to charge into and to grind down everything it can charge with weight of attacks. There is litterally no single unit that costs equivalent or has as many models. You multicharge as many threats as you can reach with it, kill it, or consolidate then kill it next turn and move on. The greentide is not unbeatable but wraiths do not have the number of attacks needed to even dent the list. You need lots of shooting and/or blast weapons or an assault unit that actually has a significant number of attacks that can chip away at a tide and the 18 str 6 atks from a max wraith unit is nothing. To t4, 4+, 5++, 5+++fnp unit with 103 models.
To put it into perspective to you since you seem to lack it. The harvest detschment costs more then a knight paladin, which is a significantly bigger threat to the tide. A knight paladin with its battle cannon, stomps, destroyer atks and subsequent apocalyptic blast does more damage to the tide for less points then the harvest detachment. Btw the tide as I been mentioning it with all its support is about 1k points so half a 2k list. 6 non RP nondecorian formation wraiths are 258 points and will die from weight of attacks in a single game turn. If you want to spam 3 units of them for 774points feel Free those 18 wraiths might live for over two game turns then.
We aren't going gaga over the wraiths offensive potential, we're going gaga over their defensive potential.
In general, in 40K, offense trumps defense. Their defense is so good that they're an exception.
Now bear in mind, I'm not TOTALLY sure of the rules behind green tide, but from what I gather, it's a big unit of 100 orks with 10 or so nobs, and usually has a boss and painboy as well as a ws5 banner.
In your given situation, say I back the wraiths (and spyder) up near my other units, who proceed to open fire on the tide of orks. I quickly run out of back step room in one or two turns. So on this next one, with nowhere to run, I move the canopteks as close as possible to the tide with the spyder a bit behind. Then step into rapid fire range with my vulnerable backfield and open fire more. Then I charge the tide with 6 wraiths.
Even if the entire tide was still alive AND close enough to attack magically, it's STILL against the odds to kill all 6 wraiths. (Assuming a warboss pk, a bunch of pk nobs, a waaagh banner etc.) Including overwatch, you'll fall just short, which means that on your turn, you'll finish off a wraith of two, and then be available as targets on the necron turn again. That's four turns of shooting due to the snackrifice of a 250 point unit backed up by a 50 point unit.
I'll keep saying it til someone on the internet listens. Wraiths aren't amazing hammers that kill anything. They are stupendously good support units that can counter charge, tarpit, and disrupt the enemy while having unbelievable resilience. They do better in tac lists as support, not in a wraith spam list.
That same strategy wouldn't work if you just had a bunch of seperate ork units instead of one green tide though.
niv-mizzet wrote: We aren't going gaga over the wraiths offensive potential, we're going gaga over their defensive potential.
In general, in 40K, offense trumps defense. Their defense is so good that they're an exception.
Now bear in mind, I'm not TOTALLY sure of the rules behind green tide, but from what I gather, it's a big unit of 100 orks with 10 or so nobs, and usually has a boss and painboy as well as a ws5 banner.
In your given situation, say I back the wraiths (and spyder) up near my other units, who proceed to open fire on the tide of orks. I quickly run out of back step room in one or two turns. So on this next one, with nowhere to run, I move the canopteks as close as possible to the tide with the spyder a bit behind. Then step into rapid fire range with my vulnerable backfield and open fire more. Then I charge the tide with 6 wraiths.
Even if the entire tide was still alive AND close enough to attack magically, it's STILL against the odds to kill all 6 wraiths. (Assuming a warboss pk, a bunch of pk nobs, a waaagh banner etc.) Including overwatch, you'll fall just short, which means that on your turn, you'll finish off a wraith of two, and then be available as targets on the necron turn again. That's four turns of shooting due to the snackrifice of a 250 point unit backed up by a 50 point unit.
I'll keep saying it til someone on the internet listens. Wraiths aren't amazing hammers that kill anything. They are stupendously good support units that can counter charge, tarpit, and disrupt the enemy while having unbelievable resilience. They do better in tac lists as support, not in a wraith spam list.
That same strategy wouldn't work if you just had a bunch of seperate ork units instead of one green tide though.
Thats exactly what I think too. A smart player dont need to spam them. Take 2 units of them in a TAC list and nearly every opponent starts fighting an uphill battle. You cant get rid of them without using your whole army to fight them, even without RP (see list below).
While they might not be that hard hitting as other units, they can still handle nearly every unit in the game. Combined with their speed (12" ignore everthing in the way, fleet charge) they can choose the targets that are really worth it. If their is none, fine, use them to grab objectives and for board control or defend your most important units against other assault troops that are more expensive most of the time and will be wiped out in 2-3turns.
The only two Options I can see so far are tarpitting and some psyker stuff (reducing T), but both come with drawbacks, arent reliable or arent available to every army in the game.
So here is the Mathhammer how many shots/melee attacks it needs to kill 1 Wraith WITHOUT RP:
It basically says, killing is no real option. Everbody who states its not different like before, when they wereT4: It is! Before you could use volume of fire or just double them out. Now both isnt that easy anymore. A guardsman now needs twice as many shots as before... Just for DE with poison its business as usual...
gungo wrote: Lots of hyperbole thrown around by necron players about how unbeatable wraith lists are. The fact of the matter is I am positive there will be wraith lists at the LVO and I would put money down that there is litterally no chance it will win. I doubt it even makes top 5. There is plenty of hard coubters to the list none of which is list tailoring. The greentide is a clear list that wraiths lists are completely and utterly ineffective against. Go ahead spam 3 harvest detschments and then watch as 18 wraiths and 3 spyders get ground down in 2-3 turns. People keep telling you these hard counters but putting ur fingers in your ears is not going to stop them. Regardless the LVO is happening soon and will surely end this debate about how il unstoppable wraiths are. In a tournament setting they just don't have enough offensive but have fun beating your local players fluffy builds.
Hyperbole?
We literally mathed it out. you need an OBSCENE amount of damage to take out a unit.
that is mathematically fact.
Im at least glad people are running green tide, though i haven't seen one in forever.
Edit: as well not sure which ones do but some Tournies out right ban Formations and the like. Will need to see how they handle crons.
I love running Green Tide, but I don't run it very often because though I play with a lot of cool guys, they don't exactly like the time it takes for me to set up and the overall length of the game. I've gotten loads faster at unpacking/set up/moving, but it can still take an obnoxiously long time to finish a game sometimes. XD Still stupid fun to have hundreds of infantry going.
niv-mizzet wrote: We aren't going gaga over the wraiths offensive potential, we're going gaga over their defensive potential.
In general, in 40K, offense trumps defense. Their defense is so good that they're an exception.
Now bear in mind, I'm not TOTALLY sure of the rules behind green tide, but from what I gather, it's a big unit of 100 orks with 10 or so nobs, and usually has a boss and painboy as well as a ws5 banner.
In your given situation, say I back the wraiths (and spyder) up near my other units, who proceed to open fire on the tide of orks. I quickly run out of back step room in one or two turns. So on this next one, with nowhere to run, I move the canopteks as close as possible to the tide with the spyder a bit behind. Then step into rapid fire range with my vulnerable backfield and open fire more. Then I charge the tide with 6 wraiths.
Even if the entire tide was still alive AND close enough to attack magically, it's STILL against the odds to kill all 6 wraiths. (Assuming a warboss pk, a bunch of pk nobs, a waaagh banner etc.) Including overwatch, you'll fall just short, which means that on your turn, you'll finish off a wraith of two, and then be available as targets on the necron turn again. That's four turns of shooting due to the snackrifice of a 250 point unit backed up by a 50 point unit.
I'll keep saying it til someone on the internet listens. Wraiths aren't amazing hammers that kill anything. They are stupendously good support units that can counter charge, tarpit, and disrupt the enemy while having unbelievable resilience. They do better in tac lists as support, not in a wraith spam list.
That same strategy wouldn't work if you just had a bunch of seperate ork units instead of one green tide though.
Crazyterran wrote: Ordo Xenos inquisitor with rad and psykotrope grenades is 55 pts. Psykotrope test on their stat line I, and rad grenades lower the t by 1.
Then hit them with power fists.
Guess I know what character I should add to my t-hammer termies against necrons?
Finally a glimmer of hope. The Inquisitor could also take ML1 and a Force Weapon. That would also ID beyound the first round of combat. Stick a Sanguinary Priest with a PF and they hit on 3's.
Wraiths are not overpowered. Wraiths are, however, boring as hell.
They are impossible to kill with RP but have not very much damage output. That means that what they will do is charge/be charged by some unit and then sit there until the end of the game.
(You want to know what's _really_ indestructable? Lychguard with shields in the Decurion near the Overlord. The things are absurd.)
What concerns me is not Wraiths or even the usper new Flayed Ones but the humble Warriors and Immortals in the Decurion.
A block of 20 warriors in the Decurion with the Overlord nearby cannot be killed. It's incredible. You can pepper them with Earthshakers and they won't go down, and if they do the Ghost Arc just brings them back again. They're better than just about every other troop in the game in pretty much every way, and unlike in the previously codex you can't just charge them. They have no weakness other than sub-par Initiative.
I think in my theory craft exercises the best results have come from applying Rad Grenades or Enfeeble. This brings down their ID threshold and helps lower S weapons which have high RoF not suck.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Pretty much every wound is the same vs. 3++, but one that IDs is 2.5x as effective. 2 wounds with 4+++ -> 1 wound with 5+++.
-1 T makes S4 50% more effective (-33% of shots required)
Tau does have a way to reduce T by 1. It is Darkstrider but only his unit gets the buff. Also he can only join FW or PF (I am not 100% positive, don't have my codex with me right now.)
lol. I see what you did there but at least the Wyches would probably tarpit them for an eternity in CC if not eventually win through attrition. Finally! Something that Wyches can do!
gungo wrote: And I don't know where your pulling this against th odds nonsense according to the post above at ws5 it only take 6.75 basic boyz (27 hits)charging to kill 1 wraith. While each wraith will kill one ork boy each player turn on average.
its very generous to the orks (and unrealistic) to assume that they'll be getting the charge off. With a 12" move, fleet and the ability to completely ignore ALL terrain and intervening models its much more likely that the wraiths will be getting the charge. and since they can ignore all terrain and models it will be very easy for them to control the engagement and charge you from an angle that makes it very difficult for you to get the 18 boyz into combat needed to kill a wraith per turn (54 attacks at strength 3 ws5 averages 2 wounds).
Tautastic wrote: I can only talk for a Tau army but how would this fare against the wraiths.
First off this is very dependent on terrain and deployment of units. Get a unit of tetra put at least 2 marker token on the spyder. Have 2 skyrays each use 1 marker and nuke the spyder, the skyray themselves could use their own markers if the situation presents itself. 12 S8 and AP3 at BS5 should be enough to kill it out right. Then have the rest of your army just blast the wraiths with volume of fire.
Buying the Spyders is unnecessary though. What we worked out is that it takes a ridiculous amount of firepower to kill them. Here let me show you:
With BS5, i.e. Meaning you have had 2 markerlights per turn on the wraiths.
So I guess the question is how many Broadsides are you taking? Cause one unit gives you 12 HYMP shots a turn and 12 SMS shots a turn. So 3 units of Broadsides will give you 36 HYMP shots a turn and 36 SMS shots a turn. So two turns of shooting will cause 31.11 wounds overall with those Broadsides providing they have BS5. The Broadsides cost 65pts each and then you have the Pathfinders on top to aid you hitting on 2's. You'll come out at a cost roundabout the same as the wraiths.
Of course in theory here you need to count on a few things for this to all work. Firstly you get BS5 and you get it against all 3 units of wraiths. Secondly you don't lose any Broadside models in the process over the two turns or your pathfinders for that matter as well and lastly that the Necron player doesn't have anything he can throw backfield quickly to distract you or take out the Broadsides.
Well if I know I will be against someone who does not mind spamming the best units in their codex then I will be spamming my favorites too First off this army would not be very fun for the opponent and I would lose friends fairly quickly hahaha. With that in mind my army would consist of:
2 full units of dual BC 3 single units of TLFB
Iontide with EWO, SMS, and Earth Castle (My Warlord)
3 units of 2 tetras
1 full unit of missleside with EWO and 6 missile drones
Formation
2 full units of missileside with EWO and 6 missile drones each
Iontide with EWO and SMS
Total points is 1853 (Just take out an EWO on one of the broadside to be under 1850)
Now I am not very knowledgeable about the new necron codex but it seems most of their guns range is 24'' (please correct me if I am wrong). With that known, I will deploy my units at least 25'' away from the wraiths (best charge range they have 24'' but realistically around 21''). The at least 31'' away from the rest of his army. Even if the necron goes first I will have a full turn of mostly unmolested shooting. Now if I go first that would be 2ish turn. Lets say the necron goes first and he moves all his units 6'', most of his guns would still be out of range. Then I would assume that the wraiths will move at least 16'' away from my broadside to have a turn 2 assault., they could go full rush and be theoretically be 8-9'' away from them. Now my turn:
A unit of tetra will shoot at each unit of wraiths which will result on average 3 ML. They do have pulse carbine too...but lets be real that might tickle them a little hahaha
A unit of broadside will take 2ML which will give them BS5 and the drones BS4. For calculation sakes lets round 35/36 to 100% since their weapons are TL. This will result in 20 missile hits (8 from the drones) and 12 SMS hits. Those will result in 22.67 wounds (16.67 from missiles and 6 from SMS) and will cause around 7.5 unsaved wounds or 3.75 dead wraiths. Now have the unit of BC crisis take 1ML which will result in 16 hits and 8 wounds which is 2.67 unsaved wounds. Add those together and that is roughly 5 dead wraiths. Let the other one die in overwatch with supporting fire. Do this again and that is 10 dead wraiths.
The third unit of broadside will do again around 7.5 wounds on the last unit of wraiths. Go nova charge with the Earth Castled Riptide and go for double SMS (8/9 he will pass it, so lets assume he passes). Now take the last ML on the last unit of wraiths bumping the riptide to BS4. Now his Ion gun will deal around 2 wounds and the SMS will deal roughly 3.5 wounds which leads to 1.8 unsaved wounds. Combined with the broadside that will be roughly 9 unsaved wounds or 4.5 dead wraiths.
So out of the 18 wraiths 14.5 will be dead. The other 3.5 wraiths could easily die to overwatch with supporting fire. The 3 FB suits will be in reserves and the other rippy will do w/e he wants. Now if the tau went first all of his wraiths will be most likely will be dead and probably a small chunk of the rest of his army. Now I understand there were a lot of speculations made but I think they are fairy reasonable. Will I ever play this army...probably not. Way too much cheese and $$$ hahaha.
Here's a thought, instead of people constantly posting math hammer on how durable wraiths are you actually post some math hammer on how piss poor their damage output is for a unit that costs more then a riptide, broadside team etc etc...
All they can do is assault, or try to hold objectives. But they lack obsec for the latter and hilariously enough they can be tank shocked VERY easily since they have AP- weapons, meaning it would be really stupid to death or glory with a near 50 pt wraith to maybe get one HP off that cheap transport.
Besides durability I am not seeing where the damage is supposed to come from necrons besides Tomb blades which compete for the very slot these mystical wraiths occupy, so I guess your stuck fielding heavy destroyers, but 50pts per las canon shot isn't crazy either. AB's are now nearly identical to rifleman dreads which are nothing to write home about and NS are the AA version but even more expensive. Gaus will only get you so far. It's a 24 inch RF weapon and thank god it has the gaus special rule because you can't take special weapons like other armies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ Tautasic- your absolutely right yet someone will post numbers where all 18 wraiths are from the harvest in a decurion and will have 4+++ no matter what, when or where they are so your list sucks.... Meanwhile each CH formation alone costs a minimum of 368 in a TAC list with whip coils, added to the naked reclamation legion at 479.
so 1583 and there are no tesla canons in the list at all. No upgrades on the lord or tomb blades, naked
So your list literally has nothing to fear from shooting which even in a CH decurion with that 4+++ your killing ~2.5 wraiths per missile side team. So in 2 turns that 5 per unit leaving 1 wraith in each unit to eat overwatch.
Red Corsair wrote: Here's a thought, instead of people constantly posting math hammer on how durable wraiths are you actually post some math hammer on how piss poor their damage output is for a unit that costs more then a riptide, broadside team etc etc...
All they can do is assault, or try to hold objectives. But they lack obsec for the latter and hilariously enough they can be tank shocked VERY easily since they have AP- weapons, meaning it would be really stupid to death or glory with a near 50 pt wraith to maybe get one HP off that cheap transport.
Besides durability I am not seeing where the damage is supposed to come from necrons besides Tomb blades which compete for the very slot these mystical wraiths occupy, so I guess your stuck fielding heavy destroyers, but 50pts per las canon shot isn't crazy either. AB's are now nearly identical to rifleman dreads which are nothing to write home about and NS are the AA version but even more expensive. Gaus will only get you so far. It's a 24 inch RF weapon and thank god it has the gaus special rule because you can't take special weapons like other armies.
The damage from a cron army will most likely be caused by weight of fire. Sure, gauss will only take you so far, but 40 BS4 shots average a dead land raider. That's one warrior blob in rapid fire range. How many armies have basic troops that handle heavy armour that easily? The real issue for necrons are low armour saves and high toughness combined, everything else is covered by their basic weaponry. Wraiths can tie up most of these threats, and that's going to be one of their main uses.
Well saying that it's easy is a stretch, the problem is going to be getting your 20 warriors into RF range. they have a 24" range, that's nothing to brag about. In fact except for AV11+ and T8+ they are just bolt guns and nobody is bragging about bolters are they.
Not to mention, who takes land raiders anymore? As efficient and awesome as gaus is against AV14, it's no better against a 35 point rhino.
Your right, necron troops will be a PITA to shoot off objectives, but they aren't going to be doing much damage themselves either. This to me is the biggest issue Necrons face. I imagine MSU AV13 spam necrons with warriors and ghost arcs would be their best list, and will just try to win through attrition and Obsec.
niv-mizzet wrote: We aren't going gaga over the wraiths offensive potential, we're going gaga over their defensive potential.
In general, in 40K, offense trumps defense. Their defense is so good that they're an exception.
Now bear in mind, I'm not TOTALLY sure of the rules behind green tide, but from what I gather, it's a big unit of 100 orks with 10 or so nobs, and usually has a boss and painboy as well as a ws5 banner.
In your given situation, say I back the wraiths (and spyder) up near my other units, who proceed to open fire on the tide of orks. I quickly run out of back step room in one or two turns. So on this next one, with nowhere to run, I move the canopteks as close as possible to the tide with the spyder a bit behind. Then step into rapid fire range with my vulnerable backfield and open fire more. Then I charge the tide with 6 wraiths.
Even if the entire tide was still alive AND close enough to attack magically, it's STILL against the odds to kill all 6 wraiths. (Assuming a warboss pk, a bunch of pk nobs, a waaagh banner etc.) Including overwatch, you'll fall just short, which means that on your turn, you'll finish off a wraith of two, and then be available as targets on the necron turn again. That's four turns of shooting due to the snackrifice of a 250 point unit backed up by a 50 point unit.
I'll keep saying it til someone on the internet listens. Wraiths aren't amazing hammers that kill anything. They are stupendously good support units that can counter charge, tarpit, and disrupt the enemy while having unbelievable resilience. They do better in tac lists as support, not in a wraith spam list.
That same strategy wouldn't work if you just had a bunch of seperate ork units instead of one green tide though.
I know math. I understand that the entire mob has essentially a 44% damage mitigation. (Assuming you fit a painboy in as well.)
1st: I never said wraith spam. If you read some of my posts (including the one you quoted,) I've actually been saying wraith spam isn't very good. They make awesome support units for an army, not an army by themselves. I'm talking about 1 or 2 harvest formations in an otherwise-balanced decurion.
2nd: you're not getting the charge against wraiths that are just waiting for you to get close enough to counter assault. Period. To assume you are is to assume the necron player is either very dumb or you bribed him to take a fall. The pressure is on you to run up and charge, since the crons will happily gunline at you for as long as they can, and when you always move max speed forward, it's very easy to put a counter assault unit where the orks will be 11-14 inches away in their own assault phase, and have a -2 terrain penalty to charge, thus making it impossible. The wraiths can then hop right out and get all snug with you for a no fail charge on their turn.
3rd: 27 WS 5 s4 attacks do not kill a harvest wraith on average. Moot point since they'll be charging you, not the other way around.
4th: Again, their damage output is nothing special and not what we've been all up on about. It's the fact that with 300 points, I can actually speedbump a full, unhurt green tide for a turn. How many units can do that for as few points? If the hypothetical necron list was running 2 harvests, they could do it twice, and still have significantly more army left to do other things than the orks have! Eventually, all the close range shooting and then being held in place by a squad of wraiths is going to wear them down. If the crons back up to their edge in a dawn of war, they won't need to counter assault til bottom of 3/top of 4, and with two turns of speed bump, they can hold your tide there until a possible game end, even without shooting it. Then they can send out Jsj destroyers and veil deep strikers to go grab objectives while harvest wraiths are sacrificing themselves as a spyder watches. They still have scarabs to run around annoying the rest of your army as well.
(Also I'm assuming the tide is still healthy all the time on the math. It's possible by the time the 2nd speedbump ties them up, that they just won't have the gas to kill them all before the end of the game, due to being worn down by successive turns of shooting. If the tide is even half dead at the time of the 2nd speedbump unit, they're going to be stuck there for the rest of the game.)
And if you roll purge the alien with green tide, well, some armies just have a near auto-win game type.
Red Corsair wrote: Here's a thought, instead of people constantly posting math hammer on how durable wraiths are you actually post some math hammer on how piss poor their damage output is for a unit that costs more then a riptide, broadside team etc etc...
why? they could be ws1 str1 ap6 attacks 1 and it wouldnt really change anything at all.
but for the record a video batrep posted a couple of pages back showed a single 3-man unit of wraiths tear through not one but two dreadknights within the span of about four turns. in fact they killed the second one before it could even strike.
Yeah again the fact that the unit STAYS ALIVE and is mobile makes it a good unit already. Then you give them a decent enough combat profile to be on par with most bully units, as well as some small elite combat units, and be able to hurt anything in the game since they hit almost literally like an assault cannon, and you get a "wtf how is this so good" unit.
Good necron players (trying to run a good list) WILL have at least a unit of wraiths as a support unit if they have any ground presence at all. They're too good at doing any support strategy like tarpitting, counter assaulting, ripping tanks apart, soaking damage, holding objectives, disrupting enemy problem units...
Essentially, with a rec legion and a harvest in your list, you can spend the rest on threats and know that you've got body count and support elements pretty well covered. As points go up, add in the occasional extra harvest group.
niv-mizzet wrote: We aren't going gaga over the wraiths offensive potential, we're going gaga over their defensive potential.
In general, in 40K, offense trumps defense. Their defense is so good that they're an exception.
Now bear in mind, I'm not TOTALLY sure of the rules behind green tide, but from what I gather, it's a big unit of 100 orks with 10 or so nobs, and usually has a boss and painboy as well as a ws5 banner.
In your given situation, say I back the wraiths (and spyder) up near my other units, who proceed to open fire on the tide of orks. I quickly run out of back step room in one or two turns. So on this next one, with nowhere to run, I move the canopteks as close as possible to the tide with the spyder a bit behind. Then step into rapid fire range with my vulnerable backfield and open fire more. Then I charge the tide with 6 wraiths.
Even if the entire tide was still alive AND close enough to attack magically, it's STILL against the odds to kill all 6 wraiths. (Assuming a warboss pk, a bunch of pk nobs, a waaagh banner etc.) Including overwatch, you'll fall just short, which means that on your turn, you'll finish off a wraith of two, and then be available as targets on the necron turn again. That's four turns of shooting due to the snackrifice of a 250 point unit backed up by a 50 point unit.
I'll keep saying it til someone on the internet listens. Wraiths aren't amazing hammers that kill anything. They are stupendously good support units that can counter charge, tarpit, and disrupt the enemy while having unbelievable resilience. They do better in tac lists as support, not in a wraith spam list.
That same strategy wouldn't work if you just had a bunch of seperate ork units instead of one green tide though.
I know math. I understand that the entire mob has essentially a 44% damage mitigation. (Assuming you fit a painboy in as well.)
1st: I never said wraith spam. If you read some of my posts (including the one you quoted,) I've actually been saying wraith spam isn't very good. They make awesome support units for an army, not an army by themselves. I'm talking about 1 or 2 harvest formations in an otherwise-balanced decurion.
2nd: you're not getting the charge against wraiths that are just waiting for you to get close enough to counter assault. Period. To assume you are is to assume the necron player is either very dumb or you bribed him to take a fall. The pressure is on you to run up and charge, since the crons will happily gunline at you for as long as they can, and when you always move max speed forward, it's very easy to put a counter assault unit where the orks will be 11-14 inches away in their own assault phase, and have a -2 terrain penalty to charge, thus making it impossible. The wraiths can then hop right out and get all snug with you for a no fail charge on their turn.
3rd: 27 WS 5 s4 attacks do not kill a harvest wraith on average. Moot point since they'll be charging you, not the other way around.
4th: Again, their damage output is nothing special and not what we've been all up on about. It's the fact that with 300 points, I can actually speedbump a full, unhurt green tide for a turn. How many units can do that for as few points? If the hypothetical necron list was running 2 harvests, they could do it twice, and still have significantly more army left to do other things than the orks have! Eventually, all the close range shooting and then being held in place by a squad of wraiths is going to wear them down. If the crons back up to their edge in a dawn of war, they won't need to counter assault til bottom of 3/top of 4, and with two turns of speed bump, they can hold your tide there until a possible game end, even without shooting it. Then they can send out Jsj destroyers and veil deep strikers to go grab objectives while harvest wraiths are sacrificing themselves as a spyder watches. They still have scarabs to run around annoying the rest of your army as well.
(Also I'm assuming the tide is still healthy all the time on the math. It's possible by the time the 2nd speedbump ties them up, that they just won't have the gas to kill them all before the end of the game, due to being worn down by successive turns of shooting. If the tide is even half dead at the time of the 2nd speedbump unit, they're going to be stuck there for the rest of the game.)
And if you roll purge the alien with green tide, well, some armies just have a near auto-win game type.
1) no one disagrees wraiths are a good support unit. They just aren't anywhere unbeatable and very much just like they were last edition. Please feel free to take a double harvest formstion in a reclamation detachment that's over 750 points without many upgrades to make your mandatory units worthwhile.
2) please feel free to sit bunch up in your deployment zone and let the orks pound your bunched up units with str8ap2 blasts that cost 30 points each, and a full squad of lootas with thier 15d3 str 7 hits and whatever other supprt units the Orks will include as well. But let's say I don't feel comfortable making a failed charge using a move, run, charge + rerolls attempt I'll just have to be content with shooting up to 108 str 4 shoots followed by another 108 snapshots that's if you end up making your charge attempt. As they sit there taking it in the face until I allow them a charge attempt. All the whole your taking pot shots at t4, 4+,5++,5+++ units that if you get lucky wounding only takes out a 6 point model. The pressure is not on me because if your wraiths are sitting back doing nothing then while the tide gets into charge range all the while taking shoots on you then they have done thier job.
3) talk to the person above that posted it I believe it was based on no RP from harvest.
4) if your looking to speed bump the tide for a turn you do realize there are cheaper units to do that with. To answer your question there are plenty of cheaper options to speed bump the tide for a turn. You also realize with 103 models with7 Powerklaws the tide can multi charge? Sure it's a disorganized charge but most times it doesn't matter. You act as if a green tide is the entire list. It's not just like your two harvest detachments are 750plus points without upgrades for the rest of the chaff you have to buy; the tide as I been discussing is only around 1k points. Leaving plenty of points for me to take a full detachment of 5 str8ap2 blast Mek guns for 150 points, 200 more points for 15 x d3 str7 ap4 lootas, 12x str8ap3 tank hunter rokkits and for me at least 2 squads of 3warbikers w nobs with str7 big choppas to grab objectives with 2 min size gretchon objective secured speed bump units in an 1850 point game. i have plenty of long range high volume shooting able to pound your wraiths or other annoying units that are hiding all bunched up in your deployment zone doing nothing.
The tide doesn't need to be healthy the basic Orks are 6 point speed bumps used to protect the 7str9ap2 Powerklaws nobs and painboy w poisen and warboss with str8ap5 big choppa with fearless banner, and big mek w str9ap2 powerklaw with lucky stikk granting reroll to hit and wound and a 5++ kff aoe bubble; however basic Orks do a great job of killing wraiths by weight of attacks. Purge the alien doesn't matter you get zero points until you completely wipe out every model in the fearless greentide. That's no easy task and if your are able to do that then you practically tabled me. The rest of the list I mentioned above only gives you 7 units to earn points off of. There is a great thread about the green tide in a tournament where the player won the purge the Alien game versus a tau gunline.
I already said purge the alien was awesome for green tide. Are you trying to argue against that or something?
The fact that the tide can multiassault is irrelevant. Against necrons using wraiths to hold you off, THEY will charge YOU.
If you get to the point where you ARE multi assaulting with the tide, then you've already won.
The rec legion isn't dead weight. They're necrons. They survive stuff and just keep on shooting. They don't drop like flies then run away. Even s8ap2 blasts will still grant a 5+ RP on the basic dudes, plus cover if applicable.
I'm not sure where a some of these people are getting the idea that the rec legion just sits there as a tax.
Mek guns are awesome, thankfully I find it rare to meet an ork player that can afford the damn models.
My point was that as long as it isn't purge the alien, a light amount of early game pepper fire and a couple harvests can hold up the whole tide for less than the tide cost. The scarabs aren't even considered in that. They can Zerg towards the back line orks along with say...deep strike flayed ones with the invisi-staff. With rec+ 2 harvests in a 2k list, you have a sturdy main force of bodies and a VERY GOOD queen-of-all-trades support force. Literally all the rest of the points can be spent on toys and cool offense units.
If you were near me, I'd play you a game with them to illustrate the point, but alas...
As a side example, in one of the games I played as crons against BA, I had a harvest team held back to guard against a 15 death company+ Astorath deep strike squad. He picked a good spot where I couldn't quite charge them, and I had other assault elements to shoot at, so I just made a little wraithwall for them to charge.
He did a little worse than average and only got 5 wounds in, killing 2 wraiths, then was tied up the rest of the game without that massive charge bonus. 258 point unit neutralizing a 600 point combat specialist unit IN combat, when they even got the charge.
I find that it is easiest, as an eldar player, to shoot troops into them, and special weapons if you cn afford not shooting them at other elements of the army, then assault with wraithblades. - If you roll well for psychic powers, you can chew them up with not too much difficulty.
With blood angles, shoot tacticals into them, plasmagun and all, and then send in the death company (with a mix of chainswords power weapons and thunder hammers) to finish them off.
Also have you checked wraith math? Harvest wraiths care about nil about your 108 s4 shots at poor BS. You will by odds kill 1 wraith with shooting, and just wound one with snapping.
And this is assuming you have all the orks close enough to fire at a unit that has a 6 model footprint.
Which brings me back to a point.
I did the averages for your combat effectiveness based on the idea that you would manage to get the entire green tide within 2" of b2b. In reality, that's completely absurd. You're at most getting 30 guys swinging in if he rolls the wraiths in in a line. If he chains them out so that only a couple make b2b, you're not getting close to that.
That means you can cut my damage calculations in combat into a third realistically. It'll take the tide a couple rounds at least to chew them up with only the front teeth.
I suspect that the codex was rushed and the Decurion rules not fully worked out. That's because if the RP increase worked onty on the Reclamation Legion part of the formation, the issues would not be nearly as awful.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Why are people talking about Nob power klaws? They're not very effective against Wraiths, against which you want a large quantity of high-S attacks and AP does not matter. Big Choppas are better against Wraiths.
I think RP overall should've been 6+, with the decurion offering 5+, and another source required to hit 4+. Cryptek or artifact orb or whatnot.
Also the harvest shouldn't have been a able to get RP at all.
niv-mizzet wrote: Also have you checked wraith math? Harvest wraiths care about nil about your 108 s4 shots at poor BS. You will by odds kill 1 wraith with shooting, and just wound one with snapping.
.
You do realize there is only 6 wraiths in each detschment? Even if I completely ignored shooting them with the rest of my list. Which id prolly just shoot the spyder of given a choice.
Killing 1.5 wraiths means 5 wraiths charge hitting aproximately 8-9 times vs ws5, causing about 6 wounds vs t4 and killing a grand total of 3 Orks after saves. The Orc player then Attacks with even with lets say 1/3 the list within range of those 5 models, your looking at a minimum of another 2 dead wraiths. The ork player Consolidates surrounding the last three wraiths with at least 25-30 models each. Move run charges the remaining Orks into assault his turn and with that many attacks including all the Powerklaws and big choppas and poison atks your looking at 3 very dead wraiths that killed about 5 Orks in a single game turn worth a whopping 30 points.
As has been repeated a dozen times wraiths have very little offensive prowess and still die to weight of attacks just like they did last edition. Now if you feel the need to build your entire list around around a reclamation legion spamming harvest detschments feel free lord knows the meta is with things like Knights where wraiths excell at, but wraiths aren't unbeatable and have hard counters. The greentide has counters too. I've had a knight paladin shoot it up then stomp around then. Finally die to it only for it to go all apocalyptic blast inside of it and take out almost have the darn tide.
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Alcibiades wrote: I suspect that the codex was rushed and the Decurion rules not fully worked out. That's because if the RP increase worked onty on the Reclamation Legion part of the formation, the issues would not be nearly as awful.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Why are people talking about Nob power klaws? They're not very effective against Wraiths, against which you want a large quantity of high-S attacks and AP does not matter. Big Choppas are better against Wraiths.
I do have 4 big choppas (2x warbiker nobs, GT warboss and a basic nob) in the list but you need powrklaws for other lists as well. This wasn't a list tailor to beat a wraith spam its a basic greentide tourney list.
How does Adamantine lance stand up to the wraith spam by math hammer?
Also, curious how long would a typical inquistion melee henchmen squad hold up to one 6 wraith unit?
I typically build my even melee henchmen squads with:
1psyker
4 crusaders with power axes
5 DCA with axe + sword (to use as needed)
1 xenos inquisitor with rad and psychotrope grenades in power armor/force sword and ML1 with needle pistol (usually divination so I get to reroll misses)
Red Corsair wrote: Here's a thought, instead of people constantly posting math hammer on how durable wraiths are you actually post some math hammer on how piss poor their damage output is for a unit that costs more then a riptide, broadside team etc etc...
why? they could be ws1 str1 ap6 attacks 1 and it wouldnt really change anything at all.
but for the record a video batrep posted a couple of pages back showed a single 3-man unit of wraiths tear through not one but two dreadknights within the span of about four turns. in fact they killed the second one before it could even strike.
Simple because they cost 258 pts thats why. If I need to explain why them having low damage output matters on an expensive unit then I can't help you. I don't care how durable they are, they have zero ranged attacks and perform badly in CC.
BTW I watched that video, terrible. The GK player chose to DS his NDK's... why? No synergy in his list for doing that. Then he uses a torrent ap4 flamer against immortals instead of warriors or more importantly scarabs. He also pays for the gatling psilencer... He DS right in front of the enemy battle line instead of behind it or within it. Oh and he disembarks from his rhino in front of the lychguard rather then tank shocking them further back and using it to block them... So many garbage plays in that video its slowed. Not saying the Necorn player played well either btw, all around that video was useless for garnering any useable data from. As soon as you saw a footslogging lychguard unit moving through terrain since turn 1 get a 2nd turn charge you should know better then to treat that as anything but entertainment.
I fail to see how a profile of WS4 S6 A3 I5 with rending "preforms badly" in CC, against most targets it will either erase them, or reduce them to non-threat values before they even swing.
Copule that with their beast status allowing them to completely avoid most things that can actually beat them and you get at the very least a -decent- output.
But than again, he key point is not the output-its the fact the can and will hunt down the units that CANT fight them, like your expensive shooters, or long-ranged support pieces-and that you really cannot do anything about it by roadblocking or killing them, unless you tailored your list.
And even when you DO tailor your list, your odds are slim. when we run calculations with all factors in favor of the non-necron player, the wraiths are still dictating the entire game on their own, and often killing over their price anyway.
And someone killing over your price with a unit that has most of its price settled into DEFENSE, is quite disturbing.
Red Corsair wrote: Here's a thought, instead of people constantly posting math hammer on how durable wraiths are you actually post some math hammer on how piss poor their damage output is for a unit that costs more then a riptide, broadside team etc etc...
why? they could be ws1 str1 ap6 attacks 1 and it wouldnt really change anything at all.
but for the record a video batrep posted a couple of pages back showed a single 3-man unit of wraiths tear through not one but two dreadknights within the span of about four turns. in fact they killed the second one before it could even strike.
The only way that people will take notice about how good the wraiths are is when they see them in action and have to play against them. I don't know what more I can do. I have posted stats to show how many shots they can take, which is a ridiculous amount. I even posted the mathhammer against a Wraithknight, which costs roughly the same as base but will cost more when bought with upgrades. I don't think that people realise that this is what Necron players will use them for. Their damage output may not be amazing but it is pretty respectable and considering they are fast units they will be used to tie up opponents main hard hitting units. The rest of the Necron army will take out everything else.
Its pretty safe to assume most studied 40k players understand how good the new wraiths are. There will always be naysayers. They are not the end all auto-win either. No unit is.
Byte wrote: Its pretty safe to assume most studied 40k players understand how good the new wraiths are. There will always be naysayers. They are not the end all auto-win either. No unit is.
And Byte drops the mic. Are the new wraiths good? Yes. Game breaking good? Nah.
Some crunch has been run on the 258-pt unit killy-ness. Too killy for tarpitting by anything MEQ or better. Strong enough to clear rear AV10s with ease. Unlikely to crack a Land Raider (yes, they can pen it), and can't chew through a GEQ tarpit, but goes to town on just about anything else.
Their killyness is more than enough to make them scary. Not the killiest at their price tag, but nothing to dismiss either. You can't just throw a counter at them (even if your faction has one), because they move super fast. So they get to pick what they think is tasty.
Ideally, you're paying the price for their mobility and durability, not killyness. But you're getting a lot more than you paid for.
Bharring wrote: Some crunch has been run on the 258-pt unit killy-ness. Too killy for tarpitting by anything MEQ or better. Strong enough to clear rear AV10s with ease. Unlikely to crack a Land Raider (yes, they can pen it), and can't chew through a GEQ tarpit, but goes to town on just about anything else.
Their killyness is more than enough to make them scary. Not the killiest at their price tag, but nothing to dismiss either. You can't just throw a counter at them (even if your faction has one), because they move super fast. So they get to pick what they think is tasty.
Ideally, you're paying the price for their mobility and durability, not killyness. But you're getting a lot more than you paid for.
Sounds like a squad of Smashfethers.
Anywayz, maybe GW has priced them with 8-th edition in mind? Where beasts are nerfed to 6' movement + fleet.
Byte wrote: Its pretty safe to assume most studied 40k players understand how good the new wraiths are. There will always be naysayers. They are not the end all auto-win either. No unit is.
And Byte drops the mic. Are the new wraiths good? Yes. Game breaking good? Nah.
We will have to wait and see I think. The feeling I have is their very high durability and decent assault output makes them ideal for hunting out tough units to tarpit them but also for hunting out objectives to sit on. In concerns to objective secured this seems to be given mostly to troops and I don't really see things like tactical squads being able to fend off objectives from wraiths to begin with. For other units the wraiths can at least contest those objectives and survive.
However, then again apparently it's been said that the whole entire Necron army is highly durable in a similar fashion. Afterall, Lychguard also get the option to have 3++ as well although they have to sacrifice their AP2 weapons for AP3 instead.
Fight the wraiths with MSU. Wraiths are generally a lot of points that can take a while to mull through units. So give them something cheap and longlasting to chew on. Effectively kills them.
col_impact wrote: Fight the wraiths with MSU. Wraiths are generally a lot of points that can take a while to mull through units. So give them something cheap and longlasting to chew on. Effectively kills them.
Just anything with fearless works very well.
3+ or better armor is even better too since rending wont happen that often.
col_impact wrote: Fight the wraiths with MSU. Wraiths are generally a lot of points that can take a while to mull through units. So give them something cheap and longlasting to chew on. Effectively kills them.
They don't cost that much though. It's 270 points for a unit of 6 with whip coils. Effectively they are 45 points per model and 22.5 points per wound. They actually don't cost anymore than say a unit of 10 Death Company or 6-7 Sanguinary Guard. A lot of Blood Angel lists are centring along the lines of 2 squads of Death Company with a unit of Sanguinary guard, so I can see a lot of Necron players taking 2 units of wraiths with perhaps a unit of Lychguard or Praetorians thrown in among the mix for combat goodness. Taking 3 units of 6 is 810 points. This still leaves the Necron player with 1190 points to play with in a 2000 point list. More than enough to sort his dedicated shooting units and any other bases he wants to cover.
It depends entirely on context. For survivability, the difference is 2W wraiths vs. RP on Shieldguard. So against anything S10 or with ID, Shieldguard inch ahead. Wraiths pull ahead if they're getting RP. Otherwise, they're exactly the same in the long term.
As any MMO healer will tell you, Health [2W] is preferable over Avoidance [RP], because there's less opportunity for bad luck to wipe you out.
However, you're paying +10pts on the Wraiths, mainly for mobility. So Shieldguard come out about 33% tougher per-point, but risk being utterly ignorable.
Damage output really depends on the target. Vs. unarmoured targets, Wraiths start ahead with slightly more attacks (per model and per point), as well as +1 strength. The closer you get to a 3+/no inv, the better Shieldguard get. Once you hit 2+, Shieldguard collapse, and Wraiths hold their own.
Their performance is close enough that you really have to look at what else they bring. Wraiths get 12" moves and Fearless, Lychguard get... the ability to ride Night Scythes? And fun times with Orikan (his save reroll sounds like it only works if you've got RP, oddly). As cool as the 'guard look, Wraiths seem to have them beat out in their own game [unless you happen to usually fight footslooging marines, I guess?]
bodazoka wrote: Any chance someone can math hammer the comparison between Wraiths and Lychguard for survivability and damage?
I have given it a shot.. and I think I have it figured out that wraith's are 20 odd % more survivable but im not sure on the damage output
Lychguard with sword and board is what im trying to figure out.
It's a bit tricky, the hyperphase swords are AP3 while the Wraiths are rending. So I'm expecting the Lychguard with this set-up to be better at killing MEQ while the Wraiths will be better wounding against 2+ armour saves cause of the rending. I would probably use Terminators as a standard if I was to work that out.
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caelim wrote: It depends entirely on context. For survivability, the difference is 2W wraiths vs. RP on Shieldguard. So against anything S10 or with ID, Shieldguard inch ahead. Wraiths pull ahead if they're getting RP. Otherwise, they're exactly the same in the long term.
As any MMO healer will tell you, Health [2W] is preferable over Avoidance [RP], because there's less opportunity for bad luck to wipe you out.
However, you're paying +10pts on the Wraiths, mainly for mobility. So Shieldguard come out about 33% tougher per-point, but risk being utterly ignorable.
Damage output really depends on the target. Vs. unarmoured targets, Wraiths start ahead with slightly more attacks (per model and per point), as well as +1 strength. The closer you get to a 3+/no inv, the better Shieldguard get. Once you hit 2+, Shieldguard collapse, and Wraiths hold their own.
Their performance is close enough that you really have to look at what else they bring. Wraiths get 12" moves and Fearless, Lychguard get... the ability to ride Night Scythes? And fun times with Orikan (his save reroll sounds like it only works if you've got RP, oddly). As cool as the 'guard look, Wraiths seem to have them beat out in their own game [unless you happen to usually fight footslooging marines, I guess?]
I think this a good assessment overall. Have an exalt.
Doing a little crude math on the bus today told me that, really, any heavy or even medium infantry will stop Wraiths in their tracks and probably wear them down over time.
That means Ogryns, Tyrant Guard, Grotesques, Broadsides (seriously! Broadsides won't win but they will tie them up). Mutilators! Obliterators. Terminators. That sort of thing. Nobs.
Actually Assault Marines on the charge have a pretty good chance of killing a Wraith, and then tying up the remaining ones.
That's part of what makes Wraiths so powerful. Nobody runs close combat troops, because they get shot to pieces. Wraiths, however, due to their speed and resilience, can take a pounding and still pose a threat, and they are threatening precisely because due to the meta, no one takes the units that are actually good at fighting them. Necrons win, again, by virtue of being really weird.
WKs can handle them sortof. They lose marginally, but get a few shots off (probably at other things) first.
So, Eldar is WK or DIAF?
Wraiths have to be compared to Termies and Wraithblades, due to their cost, durability, and their killyness is a bit less than Termies, but much more than Wraithblades. But Wraiths take the cake easily for durability. So the counters for those? They move 6'. Shoot them while they move up. For Wraiths? You have less than half the time. They have ASM mobility. You can't move away from them fast enough to matter. You can't shoot them fast enough to matter. Most armies can't assault them well enough to matter. Most armies cant tarpit them. Most armies can't MSU across the board cheap enough to matter.
Some armies can counter assault them. Some can't (Marines will have trouble, Eldar don't have a chance with anything short of Wraithknights. As in plural).
Force weapons are a decent answer to these guys, but most of those characters will be going at a lesser Init step. The main other thing I can think of is Strength 10 in melee but that is hardly common.
Am I missing something on force weapons? they still allow an invul and a RP roll (altough at -1), its twice as leathal as a non-force weapon (dealing 2 wounds at once), but its not nearly as available.
WKs can handle them sortof. They lose marginally, but get a few shots off (probably at other things) first.
So, Eldar is WK or DIAF?
Wraiths have to be compared to Termies and Wraithblades, due to their cost, durability, and their killyness is a bit less than Termies, but much more than Wraithblades. But Wraiths take the cake easily for durability. So the counters for those? They move 6'. Shoot them while they move up. For Wraiths? You have less than half the time. They have ASM mobility. You can't move away from them fast enough to matter. You can't shoot them fast enough to matter. Most armies can't assault them well enough to matter. Most armies cant tarpit them. Most armies can't MSU across the board cheap enough to matter.
Some armies can counter assault them. Some can't (Marines will have trouble, Eldar don't have a chance with anything short of Wraithknights. As in plural).
Are you sure they easily beat Wraithlords? They seem like pretty much exactly the kind of unit that would be best against them.
1/2 x 5/6 x 1/3 = 5/36 x 3 = 5/12 = a wraithlord kills a wraith in about 5 turns
1/2 x 1/6 = 1/12 x 3 = 1/4 = it takes about 12 turns for a wraith to kill a wraithlord
WKs can handle them sortof. They lose marginally, but get a few shots off (probably at other things) first.
So, Eldar is WK or DIAF?
Wraiths have to be compared to Termies and Wraithblades, due to their cost, durability, and their killyness is a bit less than Termies, but much more than Wraithblades. But Wraiths take the cake easily for durability. So the counters for those? They move 6'. Shoot them while they move up. For Wraiths? You have less than half the time. They have ASM mobility. You can't move away from them fast enough to matter. You can't shoot them fast enough to matter. Most armies can't assault them well enough to matter. Most armies cant tarpit them. Most armies can't MSU across the board cheap enough to matter.
Some armies can counter assault them. Some can't (Marines will have trouble, Eldar don't have a chance with anything short of Wraithknights. As in plural).
Are you sure they easily beat Wraithlords? They seem like pretty much exactly the kind of unit that would be best against them.
1/2 x 5/6 x 1/3 = 5/36 x 3 = 5/12 = a wraithlord kills a wraith in about 5 turns
1/2 x 1/6 = 1/12 x 3 = 1/4 = it takes about 12 turns for a wraith to kill a wraithlord
Not really.
A unit of 5 Wraiths has 20 attacks on the charge.
I'd ignore the Wraithlord anyway. He's slow and his damage output is meh.
BoomWolf wrote: wraithlord does not match up against a single wraith in price though.
Sure, looks like 2 Wraiths and a Wraithlord are about evenly matched though and are about the same pointswise (The Wraithlord is actually about 30 points more). The Lord will be getting psychic support though.
Assuming neither charge, no RP, and both are full at start, Wraithlord dies before swinging in combat #4, EV of 15/12 wounds on one wraith. Odds of dropping one are tiny.
Wlord can get a little shooting in first, but is unlikely to wound a Wraith before Wraiths charge the Lord.
Advantage, blindingly the Wraiths over the Wraithlord.
BrotherGecko wrote: New to this whole debate so I apologize but doesn't the Imperial Knight still run rough shod over Wraiths?
They would have the best chance. But with no Invul can get hulled within two or three rounds. just better hope to roll those 6s and remove them off the table.
BrotherGecko wrote: New to this whole debate so I apologize but doesn't the Imperial Knight still run rough shod over Wraiths?
That much I5 rending? Nah. The fight could go either way, but there's no way the Knight isn't either dead or limping with more than the Wraith unit's points blown out of it.
Doing a little crude math on the bus today told me that, really, any heavy or even medium infantry will stop Wraiths in their tracks and probably wear them down over time.
That means Ogryns, Tyrant Guard, Grotesques, Broadsides (seriously! Broadsides won't win but they will tie them up). Mutilators! Obliterators. Terminators. That sort of thing. Nobs.
Actually Assault Marines on the charge have a pretty good chance of killing a Wraith, and then tying up the remaining ones.
I worked out that 18 wraith attacks will kill off 3.5 standard marines on average. When I used Death Company it dropped down to about 2.33. In order for the Death Company to effectively hold their own in combat I worked out it was essential for them to get the charge at +1I for a BSF formation and also to get that strength 5.
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Fenris Frost wrote: Force weapons are a decent answer to these guys, but most of those characters will be going at a lesser Init step. The main other thing I can think of is Strength 10 in melee but that is hardly common.
So for Blood Angels we are talking Mephiston provided he can get Sanguine Sword or Force off for psychic powers.
WKs can handle them sortof. They lose marginally, but get a few shots off (probably at other things) first.
So, Eldar is WK or DIAF?
Wraiths have to be compared to Termies and Wraithblades, due to their cost, durability, and their killyness is a bit less than Termies, but much more than Wraithblades. But Wraiths take the cake easily for durability. So the counters for those? They move 6'. Shoot them while they move up. For Wraiths? You have less than half the time. They have ASM mobility. You can't move away from them fast enough to matter. You can't shoot them fast enough to matter. Most armies can't assault them well enough to matter. Most armies cant tarpit them. Most armies can't MSU across the board cheap enough to matter.
Some armies can counter assault them. Some can't (Marines will have trouble, Eldar don't have a chance with anything short of Wraithknights. As in plural).
Are you sure they easily beat Wraithlords? They seem like pretty much exactly the kind of unit that would be best against them.
1/2 x 5/6 x 1/3 = 5/36 x 3 = 5/12 = a wraithlord kills a wraith in about 5 turns
1/2 x 1/6 = 1/12 x 3 = 1/4 = it takes about 12 turns for a wraith to kill a wraithlord
I did the math earlier on with a Wraithknight vs 6 Wraiths which is a comparable cost. No doubt they tie each other up for pretty much the entire game but the Wraithknight manages a draw basically wiping out all the wraiths in return to getting wiped out provided it has a 5++ and also gets the charge. Otherwise the wraiths eventually win.
BrotherGecko wrote: New to this whole debate so I apologize but doesn't the Imperial Knight still run rough shod over Wraiths?
That much I5 rending? Nah. The fight could go either way, but there's no way the Knight isn't either dead or limping with more than the Wraith unit's points blown out of it.
6 Wraiths assuming charge (which is a toss up which will charge) do average of 2 glancing hits. The Knight with stomps and D weapons can kill the whole squad.
BrotherGecko wrote: New to this whole debate so I apologize but doesn't the Imperial Knight still run rough shod over Wraiths?
That much I5 rending? Nah. The fight could go either way, but there's no way the Knight isn't either dead or limping with more than the Wraith unit's points blown out of it.
6 Wraiths assuming charge (which is a toss up which will charge) do average of 2 glancing hits. The Knight with stomps and D weapons can kill the whole squad.
Pretty unlikely in one turn, allowing more glances next time.
On average the Knight will probably remove one, maybe two, Wraiths per combat round.
Well with a stomp roll of 6 the Knight would likely remove 2-4 Wraiths instantly. The D CC weapon doesn't allow RP so any hit that goes through IDs a Wraith. Plus every Wraith killed further decreases the chances of Wraiths doing anything per round.
So realistically an Imperial Knight is a very solid way to kill some Wraiths with the potential danger to itself due to good/bad rolling. Also while not directly point for point a Knight does damage outside of CC so its worth the extra points.
BrotherGecko wrote: Well with a stomp roll of 6 the Knight would likely remove 2-4 Wraiths instantly. The D CC weapon doesn't allow RP so any hit that goes through IDs a Wraith. Plus every Wraith killed further decreases the chances of Wraiths doing anything per round.
So realistically an Imperial Knight is a very solid way to kill some Wraiths with the potential danger to itself due to good/bad rolling. Also while not directly point for point a Knight does damage outside of CC so its worth the extra points.
Also to note, they are just as fast as the wraiths too.
Just fought my first game against 7crons. He only took 3 wraiths, and they were in the Canoptek Harvest. I had Orks at 1850.
I only lost 16 to 10. I used 20 'ard shoota boys with a minimal nob to tie them up for 4 turns. (Mob rule really helped me stay in combat, btw, with minimal losses.) In the end the wraiths only scored 1 malestrom point, but I had to use double the points in boyz to stop them. I even killed one of them.
So for orks at least, we can assume that for every 40 points of wraiths taken you will need to allocate 80 points or so to them to slow them down.
Not sure what I'd do if I faced 18 of the things...conceed?
JimOnMars wrote: Just fought my first game against 7crons. He only took 3 wraiths, and they were in the Canoptek Harvest. I had Orks at 1850.
I only lost 16 to 10. I used 20 'ard shoota boys with a minimal nob to tie them up for 4 turns. (Mob rule really helped me stay in combat, btw, with minimal losses.) In the end the wraiths only scored 1 malestrom point, but I had to use double the points in boyz to stop them. I even killed one of them.
So for orks at least, we can assume that for every 40 points of wraiths taken you will need to allocate 80 points or so to them to slow them down.
Not sure what I'd do if I faced 18 of the things...conceed?
Isnt it obvious?
Mor Dakka
mor orks.
You will want to park your big blob of boys on objectives and hope to get them while you are being tarpited
JimOnMars wrote: Just fought my first game against 7crons. He only took 3 wraiths, and they were in the Canoptek Harvest. I had Orks at 1850.
I only lost 16 to 10. I used 20 'ard shoota boys with a minimal nob to tie them up for 4 turns. (Mob rule really helped me stay in combat, btw, with minimal losses.) In the end the wraiths only scored 1 malestrom point, but I had to use double the points in boyz to stop them. I even killed one of them.
So for orks at least, we can assume that for every 40 points of wraiths taken you will need to allocate 80 points or so to them to slow them down.
Not sure what I'd do if I faced 18 of the things...conceed?
Isnt it obvious?
Mor Dakka
mor orks.
You will want to park your big blob of boys on objectives and hope to get them while you are being tarpited
I was under the impresson that there was always more Orks.
So for orks at least, we can assume that for every 40 points of wraiths taken you will need to allocate 80 points or so to them to slow them down.
Not sure what I'd do if I faced 18 of the things...conceed?
18 Wraiths vs. Orks? Yeah you'll probably lose that game. I haven't played against the 7th Edition Necrons yet, but my friend just got into Necrons in December, and he loaded up on 12 Wraiths before he even knew what the new stats would be. So... I'll find out pretty quick.
As Orks, I can think of 3 things to really beat down Wraiths. Listed in order of effectiveness...
1) Morkanaut. Should be invincible in close-combat against Wraiths. Each failed wound is instant-death to a Wraith.
2) Warboss with a bunch of Boyz. Every Warboss hit that is a failed wound should be instant death for a Wraith.
2) Lootas. Volume of fire, wound on 2's. Just hope your opponent fails some saving throws. You'd need a lot of Lootas though. You'll only get to fire with them once or twice before the Wraiths attack, most likely. Need Boyz in front so they don't get assaulted.
3) MORE BOYZ
BrotherGecko wrote: New to this whole debate so I apologize but doesn't the Imperial Knight still run rough shod over Wraiths?
They would have the best chance. But with no Invul can get hulled within two or three rounds. just better hope to roll those 6s and remove them off the table.
Edit: It also depends on the charge.
Lancer with an allied psyker casting invisibility on it; sit back and laugh at the wraiths until you roll a 6 on your stomp. Lots of wraiths? Castigator; auto-hit everything in B2B at S10 (but at i2).
The scary units or models out there are those with S10.
Annoying are also units that can tie up Wraiths for a few turns.
However, Wraiths are fast enough so that they can pick their fight.
Stompas should do fine for Orks. Just stomp away as Wraiths have no defense against a rolled 6. Otherwise mob the Spyder. It has no Invul Save so it will have to rely on its RP rolls to survive. And with 3 wounds its not too hard to drop. Stormboyz jump over the Boyz wrangling the Wraiths. Molly whop the Spyder and watch the lolz roll in.
Going over options... it seems the best and most effective option for Grey Knights would be Purifiers, if they get off Force AND Hammerhand we'd be looking at at least 3 rounds of combat being tied up. Purifiers still lose in the end, with 3 out of six wraiths remaining assuming only a 5+ RP.
I'd like to say, for my Blood Angel's, beating the Necrons is going to involve spamming Death Company but that just doesn't seem like it is going to work. Maybe on the charge they will stand a chance. For my Crimson Fists, the answer appears to be MOAR Sternguard. Again, probably not going to work out all that well since the points put into it.
Edit: Oh, and no less than three people at my FLGS play Necrons so this is a problem I will have to deal with.
As much str 5-7 shooting as you can get. Against regular shots they are MON chaos marines.
S4 average 18 hits for a kill
S5 average 12 hits for a kill
S6 average 9 hits for a kill
S7 average 7.2 hits for a kill
The thing is that you dont need to kill an entire unit. You need to get each unit down to about 3 wraiths and they are not scary anymore. At that point its not reliable to get specific results.
Get units that put out the bullets and you should not worry about wraiths. Which honestly if you are preparing for things like tyranids or Wave serpents you are gonna want as many shots as you can,
Each wraith is gonna do less than a wound to a marine on the charge. Its in mass numbers when they become a problem, able to wipe out entire units.
I disagree (@leth). Multiple sets of tiny amounts of wraiths can hop into your army and tarpit your important units even after you thought you "mostly de-clawed" their unit. And you can't just let them roam free, or they're going to find a nice squishy tank in your back lines and eat it. Even a single wraith is like hitting your rear armor with an assault cannon. (Statistically identical, in fact.)
Their damage output is decent, but actually pretty irrelevant to how good they are. They could have 1 ws1 s1 attack and I'd still run them:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hollismason wrote: Who did the math on what a wound negation a 4+ then a 5+ was or could tell me the formulae I think it's 83%
Not totally sure what you're asking here, but I'll just broadly answer.
If they get 3++/4++, (virtually any wound) that's statistically identical to a 2++. (83.3333%)
If they get 3++/5++, (s10 and ID special rule) that's a little less than a 2++. (77.77%)
If they just get 3++, (str D) then 66.66%
And finally a 6 on a D or remove from play effect for a certain kill.
Also in the rare case that they have a lord break open a res orb for them when you try to shoot at them, they will have an astounding 91.7% damage mitigation.
And all that mitigation is AFTER you apply your own accuracy mitigation ie. failed hits and wounds.
In a hilarious example, in that last situation, it would take 1728 las gun shots to kill the unit (The Lord would still be alive)
Leth wrote: As much str 5-7 shooting as you can get. Against regular shots they are MON chaos marines.
S4 average 18 hits for a kill S5 average 12 hits for a kill S6 average 9 hits for a kill S7 average 7.2 hits for a kill
The thing is that you dont need to kill an entire unit. You need to get each unit down to about 3 wraiths and they are not scary anymore. At that point its not reliable to get specific results.
Get units that put out the bullets and you should not worry about wraiths. Which honestly if you are preparing for things like tyranids or Wave serpents you are gonna want as many shots as you can,
Each wraith is gonna do less than a wound to a marine on the charge. Its in mass numbers when they become a problem, able to wipe out entire units.
The problem is that you don't have time to whittle them down. They're going to be in CC with your Riptide/Centurions/whatever your most critical unit is tying it up by turn 3 at the latest (realistically, turn 2). That means you get either one or two turns of shooting before they're stuck in.
At BS4, it takes ~27 strength 4 shots to kill one Wraith. If you want to cripple the unit then you're going to need at least 100 bolter rounds to do the job, on average. That's 50 marines rapid-firing into a single unit. That's not very realistic.
It doesn't get significantly better with higher strength units, since the strength of the weapon rises proportionally with how rare/low rof it is. It takes ~72 strength 5 shots to kill 4 wraiths (at BS4) and 44 strength 7 shots.
And this is only for one unit. If they run Wraithwing and have three units... take all the math above and multiply it by 3. Obviously, that'd be cray.
Really, there's no point in even trying to kill or maim the wraiths, imo. The only solid strategy is to work around them, and that means ignoring them with tarpit units of your own (guardsmen blobs and MSU come to mind). If you can't do that, then you're either a Tyranid penta-Tyrant list or you're screwed.
niv-mizzet wrote: I disagree (@leth). Multiple sets of tiny amounts of wraiths can hop into your army and tarpit your important units even after you thought you "mostly de-clawed" their unit. And you can't just let them roam free, or they're going to find a nice squishy tank in your back lines and eat it. Even a single wraith is like hitting your rear armor with an assault cannon. (Statistically identical, in fact.)
Their damage output is decent, but actually pretty irrelevant to how good they are. They could have 1 ws1 s1 attack and I'd still run them:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hollismason wrote: Who did the math on what a wound negation a 4+ then a 5+ was or could tell me the formulae I think it's 83%
Not totally sure what you're asking here, but I'll just broadly answer.
If they get 3++/4++, (virtually any wound) that's statistically identical to a 2++. (83.3333%)
If they get 3++/5++, (s10 and ID special rule) that's a little less than a 2++. (77.77%)
If they just get 3++, (str D) then 66.66%
And finally a 6 on a D or remove from play effect for a certain kill.
Also in the rare case that they have a lord break open a res orb for them when you try to shoot at them, they will have an astounding 91.7% damage mitigation.
And all that mitigation is AFTER you apply your own accuracy mitigation is failed hits and wounds.
Can you post the formulae for that, I always screw it up or forget it even though I've done it before.
If you want to get a %, assume 100 wounds.
Multiply it by the percent chance to fail the save behind a decimal (so 0.33 repeating aka 1/3 for a 3++)
Multiply that number by the chance to fail fnp/RP. (Again behind a decimal, so 0.5 for 4+)
That number is now your total % chance of failure. Subtract it from 100 to get your chance of success, or you could go through the whole process plugging in chances of success instead.
Since warhammer uses d6's, important numbers to know are:
.1666, .3333, .5, .6666, and .83333 That's 1/6 to 5/6 in decimal form in order.
Strength 10 would still insta kill them wouldn't it? A few demolisher siege cannons could theoretically ruin their day.... but if they don't they're within 24 inches at least and that's..... bad.
Yeah it's been brought up. Against harvest wraiths, you kill .22 wraiths for each wraith hit, so you need to hit between 4-5 to do any harm whatsoever, on average. When you consider the point efficiency involved, it's a pretty terrible matchup for the demolisher cannon, considering how close to a fast moving unit it has to be to fire.
niv-mizzet wrote: Yeah it's been brought up. Against harvest wraiths, you kill .22 wraiths for each wraith hit, so you need to hit between 4-5 to do any harm whatsoever, on average. When you consider the point efficiency involved, it's a pretty terrible matchup for the demolisher cannon, considering how close to a fast moving unit it has to be to fire.
Well it's a large blast, and if you hit 3-4 Wraiths you'll likely kill at least one.
niv-mizzet wrote: Yeah it's been brought up. Against harvest wraiths, you kill .22 wraiths for each wraith hit, so you need to hit between 4-5 to do any harm whatsoever, on average. When you consider the point efficiency involved, it's a pretty terrible matchup for the demolisher cannon, considering how close to a fast moving unit it has to be to fire.
Well it's a large blast, and if you hit 3-4 Wraiths you'll likely kill at least one.
(Go Manticores!)
Assuming they dont just chain gang them so you will at best hit 2
White scars should be able to give wraith grief. Any time wraith get off a charge it will just allow scars to hit n run towards softer targets or more critical ones. Grav guns will melt spiders Which should make wraith more manageable.
schadenfreude wrote: White scars should be able to give wraith grief. Any time wraith get off a charge it will just allow scars to hit n run towards softer targets or more critical ones. Grav guns will melt spiders Which should make wraith more manageable.
Statistically, 6 wraiths are gona kill 4 bikers on the charge. Than they'll kill 3 before you have a chance to H&R. Doesn't sound like grief.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I still think the best counter is heavy infantry. How do 6 Wraiths do against 5 Bullgryns? (I think that's about the same points value.)
schadenfreude wrote: White scars should be able to give wraith grief. Any time wraith get off a charge it will just allow scars to hit n run towards softer targets or more critical ones. Grav guns will melt spiders Which should make wraith more manageable.
Statistically, 6 wraiths are gona kill 4 bikers on the charge. Than they'll kill 3 before you have a chance to H&R. Doesn't sound like grief.
Why would they stick around for a 2nd round of cc instead of h are on the necron turn.
Wraiths are good at killing bikes, but bikes are also good at killing everything else the necron player has. Also wraiths are going to struggle with a 2+3++ chapter master. Charging his squad will give them an extra 3d6" of movement on the necron turn.
Last but not least the bike army is fast and obsec out the wazoo.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I still think the best counter is heavy infantry. How do 6 Wraiths do against 5 Bullgryns? (I think that's about the same points value.)
Well, 6 wraiths statistically pull 2 rends + 6 regular wounds on the charge and 1.5 rends + 4 regular wounds without charge vs t5 ws4 models.
BoomWolf wrote: Are we seriusly 19 pages in and yet failed to find even a dedicated counter, let alone a TAC worthy answer?
I still think Flyrants and dakkafexes are a pretty good counter.
"Doomscythes are good against flyrants". Ok, so why exactly does that make flyrants a bad counter to Wraiths?
A counter to wraiths would be something like this:
Brood of 2 Carnifexes w/ brainleech devourers and adrenal glands
Screen them with a unit of gaunts so the carnifexes are more likely to get the bonus from AD.
Add a venomthrope and you've got yourself a decent blob in any army.
It really pisses me off that there's been another Wave Serpent/Riptide/Screamerstar cock up. Well, I say that, but I think GW just wants an excuse to get people into more obscure armies by giving them easy victories with broken appeal units.
I have no desire at all to see some smug, detestable bitch put a Necron army with Wraith spam on the table and wipe the floor with an army I've put months and years of consideration, ideas and effort into building. And a month down the line, competitive discussion is going to be filled with "your army sucks because it won't beat Wraith spam" and "I might take 15 of them, but Wraiths aren't broken, honest!" Que half the variation in competitive lists being destroyed again.
BoomWolf wrote: Are we seriusly 19 pages in and yet failed to find even a dedicated counter, let alone a TAC worthy answer?
Double chapter master white scars and iron hands bike list would be tac. Probably best to reserve most of the army and run away turbo boosting for a turn or 2 until the white scars run out of board. Slaughter anything that has obsec and necron is going to have issues.
For a pure dedicated counter Celestine and a bunch of priests inside 30 death company. Hatred, shred, FNP,rerolls to 3+ armor, hit and run, furious charge.
For a pure dedicated counter Celestine and a bunch of priests inside 30 death company. Hatred, shred, FNP,rerolls to 3+ armor, hit and run, furious charge.
Yep, countering wraiths is easy when you play with 3 times more points than your opponent
Automatically Appended Next Post: I still think the best counter is heavy infantry. How do 6 Wraiths do against 5 Bullgryns? (I think that's about the same points value.)
Well, 6 wraiths statistically pull 2 rends + 6 regular wounds on the charge and 1.5 rends + 4 regular wounds without charge vs t5 ws4 models.
So that's 1 dead Bullgryn, leaving 4.
Bullgryns with bruteshields have a 5+ inv save. Did you factor that in?
For a pure dedicated counter Celestine and a bunch of priests inside 30 death company. Hatred, shred, FNP,rerolls to 3+ armor, hit and run, furious charge.
Yep, countering wraiths is easy when you play with 3 times more points than your opponent
I think that death star could take a charge from 18 wraiths. Incoming math hammer
72 attacks from the wraiths. 36 hits 24 wounds and 6 rends. 8 failed armor saves then 2.66 failed rerolls for 8.66 fnp. Total is 5.77 dead death company
DC with hate and shred on a post hit and run charge will average 3.333 wounds per 5 attacks and they have 5a each. It takes 11 surviving DC with hate shred to drop 6 wraiths.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I still think the best counter is heavy infantry. How do 6 Wraiths do against 5 Bullgryns? (I think that's about the same points value.)
Well, 6 wraiths statistically pull 2 rends + 6 regular wounds on the charge and 1.5 rends + 4 regular wounds without charge vs t5 ws4 models.
So that's 1 dead Bullgryn, leaving 4.
Bullgryns with bruteshields have a 5+ inv save. Did you factor that in?
I'm not familliar with bullgryn equipment, but let's assume they have s7 3 attacks. with 4 attacks for a character.
They should have a priest in there.
Around 8.1-8.2 wounds from 4 s7 bullgryns with hatred. 2.7 after invul. If wraiths are still within a spyder's range it goes down to 1.35.
In ideal situation when priest passes rerolls for armor or further hatred and wraiths are out of spider range, bullgryns with maces and shields would be able to go toe to toe with wraiths. But they cost more and are slower. In not ideal situation, they'd loose.
I still think that the best bet as ig would be conscripts with priest/comissar.
Alcibiades wrote: For some reason, the people over at warseer don't seem all that concerned. Odd.
Because, they're not that big of a deal. If someone's dumping all their points in non-obsec units by spamming wraiths, you can outscore them and win. If they take one or two units of them, just ignore them or tarpit them; after their initial charge, they're not generating all that many hits/wounds on a unit and their CC attack is AP- outside of the occasional rend. I think they should be 1 wound, not 2 but that's just my opinion.
Of the armies that I play:
Grey Knights: Here, play with a terminator/paladin unit with sanctuary (I think that's what the power that bumps invuln is called, it's been a while) so any rends get my 4++ then the S10 hammers get to play. Meanwhile my dreadknights shunt past them and is killing the spider/support units. If they turn around to deal with the DKs, the termies kill whatever they want. Librarian with invisibility for lolz.
Dark Eldar: Dust off the wyches, they finally have a use. Here's a 150 pt witch unit that doesn't care about rending due to the 4++ in CC, if you ever kill all of them, I'll have dealt with your spiders and the rest of your army.
Ultras: Oddly, an army where a TAC list will probably do well anyway. Libby casts invis on whatever unit is assaulted by the wraiths.
Knights: Lancer with allied libby casting invis or Castigator or for real fun, a magera with IWND for the occasional hull point that gets stripped. Pity the wraiths or any CC unit that assaults an adamantine lance; sure they don't get a CC invuln but a 3-knight unit generating d3 stomps each; there's bound to be a 6 in there somewhere.
Tau: Broadsides, markerlights, plasma. This is one army that would actually have a decent shot at shooting a wraith unit to death and a unit of firewarriors get saves vs. the CC attacks sans rending.
1) D weapons and stomps
2) Tarpit with fearless units
thats about it
If it has not been mentioned, how does 5 Heavy Bolters do?
15 S5 shots, AP4. Should clear a few wraiths in 1 shooting?
Probably clean up on the second volley?
1) D weapons and stomps
2) Tarpit with fearless units
thats about it
If it has not been mentioned, how does 5 Heavy Bolters do?
15 S5 shots, AP4. Should clear a few wraiths in 1 shooting?
Probably clean up on the second volley?
Not badly, assuming the wraith doesn't have RP (which is a killer -- shoot that damn spyder already!).
Assuming Marines
2/3 x 1/2 x 1/3 = 1/9 x 15 = 1 2/3 wounds, so a reasonable chance of a dead Wraith.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think HBs are probably one of the most effective options against Warriors, but I haven't figured it out.
1) D weapons and stomps
2) Tarpit with fearless units
thats about it
If it has not been mentioned, how does 5 Heavy Bolters do?
15 S5 shots, AP4. Should clear a few wraiths in 1 shooting?
Probably clean up on the second volley?
Wraiths: 1.66 wounds before RP. Goes down to 0.83 with 4+++.
Warriors: 6.66 wounds to warriors before rp in the open. 2.77 wounds after 4+++ with rerollable 1-s. Which goes to <2 wounds if they happen to be in cover. Basically, the same durability as wraiths before RP.
Immortals (t4, right?): 2.22 wounds before RP. Goes down to 0.92 wounds after 4+++ with rerollable 1-s
SM terminators: 1.11 wounds.
So, formation immortals with a lord nearby are indeed more durable than termies model per model against non-ap3 weapons. Interesting.
Anywayz, i'd not call regular weapons very effecting at killing necrons.
For a pure dedicated counter Celestine and a bunch of priests inside 30 death company. Hatred, shred, FNP,rerolls to 3+ armor, hit and run, furious charge.
Yep, countering wraiths is easy when you play with 3 times more points than your opponent
And also when you stick 30 DC together in a unit when the max you're allowed is 15.
We will need to wait and see but im really thinking its not JUST the wraiths everyoner should be worried about. The whole army is insanly durable to shooting and even the basic units impossible to shift in CC unless you have a dedicated cc unit.
Ive watched a few batreps soo far and played 1 game myself, all the games were slaugters. Necron wins were all decisive. Any army that does not die or only looses a few wounds to entire army worth of shooting has insane advantages as they have alot more guns available to return more fire. The losses are all based on the army outlasting the opponents.
The problem is that you don't have time to whittle them down. They're going to be in CC with your Riptide/Centurions/whatever your most critical unit is tying it up by turn 3 at the latest (realistically, turn 2). That means you get either one or two turns of shooting before they're stuck in.
At BS4, it takes ~27 strength 4 shots to kill one Wraith. If you want to cripple the unit then you're going to need at least 100 bolter rounds to do the job, on average. That's 50 marines rapid-firing into a single unit. That's not very realistic.
It doesn't get significantly better with higher strength units, since the strength of the weapon rises proportionally with how rare/low rof it is. It takes ~72 strength 5 shots to kill 4 wraiths (at BS4) and 44 strength 7 shots.
And this is only for one unit. If they run Wraithwing and have three units... take all the math above and multiply it by 3. Obviously, that'd be cray.
Really, there's no point in even trying to kill or maim the wraiths, imo. The only solid strategy is to work around them, and that means ignoring them with tarpit units of your own (guardsmen blobs and MSU come to mind). If you can't do that, then you're either a Tyranid penta-Tyrant list or you're screwed.
The scary thing about wraiths is that they have the ability to multi charge at a 6 man unit. Once you whittle them down to the point where they can no longer multi charge in an MSU build you have very little worry worry about. They eat 1-2 turns of shooting, whittle them down, throw stop gap units in their way who will also be firing into them, maybe you even charge them since 3 wraiths are likely to leave 1 marine alive(and with that init 5 it is unlikely that he will run away. Then he kills him on his turn and now you have an extra turn of shooting. Wraiths are scary when they hit everything at once. If you can spread them out and seperate them then they have problems.
Wraiths are countered by two things. Str 10 and wounds. Same with anything with an invul save. Once you remove AP from the equation it is simply a matter of causing wounds. There is nothing else involved(which is different from other things where AP and the like become a factor). The second thing is causing as many wounds in return for the fewest losses. Use premeasuring to your advantage. They can move through units, however they still must be able to be placed. So measure out 10 inches with a unit. Now they cant be placed one inch away from your unit and still maintain coherency. So now they are losing 2-3 inches of movement. Sure that unit is dead but their threat range is reduced and you buy yourself another turn.
Pdogg614 wrote: We will need to wait and see but im really thinking its not JUST the wraiths everyoner should be worried about. The whole army is insanly durable to shooting and even the basic units impossible to shift in CC unless you have a dedicated cc unit.
Ive watched a few batreps soo far and played 1 game myself, all the games were slaugters. Necron wins were all decisive. Any army that does not die or only looses a few wounds to entire army worth of shooting has insane advantages as they have alot more guns available to return more fire. The losses are all based on the army outlasting the opponents.
As a Blood Angel player this has really annoyed me. Our codex was just like most of the other recent codices where we were brought into line and the one thing we could have done with would have been something to give us a bit more survivability for jump pack troops, like a 4++ feel no pain or something. The very next release after us, this Necron release and I find that the Necrons get this ridiculous survivability with RP and the Wraiths becoming T5 to go with their 3++ save.
You mean really? Mephiston has to be brought back down to T5 because T6 for him is just too much but then you're going to have a whole unit of T5 wraiths with 3++ running about the table. Infuriating.
I'm curious what my old standby assault henchmen squad with xenos inquisitor will do with rad and psychotrope grenades. Anyone know the mathammer on that one?
Necrons can still be swept Don't hesitate to take advantage of that fact.
We are talking about wraiths a lot and I admit they are powerful. However they must be taken in the context of the list. Lets see what the rest of the list is made up of before we get too worried.
I seem to recall a battle report by Jy2 a few months back where a marine player was able to decimate all of his wraiths in a single turn due to being able to reroll his hits and wounds while also forcing the wraiths to reroll their saves.
Granted, the wraiths have improved since the last codex, but the theory should still be sound.
I seem to recall a battle report by Jy2 a few months back where a marine player was able to decimate all of his wraiths in a single turn due to being able to reroll his hits and wounds while also forcing the wraiths to reroll their saves.
Granted, the wraiths have improved since the last codex, but the theory should still be sound.
Can I ask what powers/abilities were in play here?
Leth wrote: Necrons can still be swept Don't hesitate to take advantage of that fact.
We are talking about wraiths a lot and I admit they are powerful. However they must be taken in the context of the list. Lets see what the rest of the list is made up of before we get too worried.
Besides the fact that wraiths are fearless?
Na honestly non Harvest Wraiths are just tougher then the previous codex and got bumped up to reletivity again because its VERY hard to double them down.
Add in RP 4+++ then they get pants. like seriously pants.
I seem to recall a battle report by Jy2 a few months back where a marine player was able to decimate all of his wraiths in a single turn due to being able to reroll his hits and wounds while also forcing the wraiths to reroll their saves.
Granted, the wraiths have improved since the last codex, but the theory should still be sound.
Can I ask what powers/abilities were in play here?
Leth wrote: Necrons can still be swept Don't hesitate to take advantage of that fact.
We are talking about wraiths a lot and I admit they are powerful. However they must be taken in the context of the list. Lets see what the rest of the list is made up of before we get too worried.
Besides the fact that wraiths are fearless?
Na honestly non Harvest Wraiths are just tougher then the previous codex and got bumped up to reletivity again because its VERY hard to double them down.
Add in RP 4+++ then they get pants. like seriously pants.
I seem to recall a battle report by Jy2 a few months back where a marine player was able to decimate all of his wraiths in a single turn due to being able to reroll his hits and wounds while also forcing the wraiths to reroll their saves.
Granted, the wraiths have improved since the last codex, but the theory should still be sound.
Can I ask what powers/abilities were in play here?
Sounds like old Misfortune
I do think good old guide and doom will still be great in the eldar book. Thats what my next list will rolling on to try for as last game what i tried with no psyker support did not work AT ALL lol.
Leth wrote: Necrons can still be swept Don't hesitate to take advantage of that fact.
We are talking about wraiths a lot and I admit they are powerful. However they must be taken in the context of the list. Lets see what the rest of the list is made up of before we get too worried.
Besides the fact that they are fearless?
Na honestly non Harvest Wraiths are just tougher then the previous codex and got bumped up to reletivity again because its VERY hard to double them down.
Add in RP 4+++ then they get pants. like seriously pants.
He was talking about the rest of their infantry actually, which definitely is the most efficient way to kill them.
19 pages yet still nobody has actually posted an 1850 Necron list spamming these wraiths. Wraiths are more durable, yet no more killy then they were a month ago when they had access to double the firepower at least for support. Why all of a sudden are wraiths a problem again? My marines didn't have an issue beating them on missions before and they didn't have the means to efficiently kill T4 wraiths then. All I see is a distinct lack of MSS and a warscythe, the two things they leaned on in order to scare away units like wraith knights.
If you want 4+++ wraiths you need a decurion which has massive limitations on what you can take in support, want tesla barges? Sorry, you need two and a DDarc, only 400pts. Gone are the days of old where 3 AB's only set you back a measly 270 and had better firepower.
This discussion is just going in circles where someone posts a unit that can hold them up or kill a few, and some smart ass just says "But not in a decurion, or better yet with cryptek support!" Yea, now find me points.
Decrurions, harvests, D-lords and crypteks are all going to add up so incredibly fast I'd be impressed if you crammed 18 actual wraiths in and didn't leave something naked and useless.
No, it goes in circles where people come up with ways to hold them or kill a few, then some smartass points out that the 'solution' costs twice the points, and doesn't hold them for long or kill many of them *without* the harvest.
Pdogg614 wrote: We will need to wait and see but im really thinking its not JUST the wraiths everyoner should be worried about. The whole army is insanly durable to shooting and even the basic units impossible to shift in CC unless you have a dedicated cc unit.
Ive watched a few batreps soo far and played 1 game myself, all the games were slaugters. Necron wins were all decisive. Any army that does not die or only looses a few wounds to entire army worth of shooting has insane advantages as they have alot more guns available to return more fire. The losses are all based on the army outlasting the opponents.
As a Blood Angel player this has really annoyed me. Our codex was just like most of the other recent codices where we were brought into line and the one thing we could have done with would have been something to give us a bit more survivability for jump pack troops, like a 4++ feel no pain or something. The very next release after us, this Necron release and I find that the Necrons get this ridiculous survivability with RP and the Wraiths becoming T5 to go with their 3++ save.
You mean really? Mephiston has to be brought back down to T5 because T6 for him is just too much but then you're going to have a whole unit of T5 wraiths with 3++ running about the table. Infuriating.
I feel ya my fellow son of sanguinius. Nothing more painful than being the codex RIGHT BEFORE a super OP codex.
It can take an army worth of fire power to down a harvest spyder, which is about the cost of THREE ASSAULT MARINES. Undercosted much? And it's not like the rest of the formation is a tax. The wraiths are obviously awesome, and if you're going to have a spyder, you may as well give him a little squad of scarabs to make new guys for.
I don't think I've ever seen a more obviously OP from the word go codex.
Bharring wrote: No, it goes in circles where people come up with ways to hold them or kill a few, then some smartass points out that the 'solution' costs twice the points, and doesn't hold them for long or kill many of them *without* the harvest.
Imperial Knights and Super Heavies are still the best choices. Twice points sometimes sure but then they will kill more then just 6 wraiths.
My point was that what made wraiths so scary was not their CC ability, it was their CC ability supported by super durable crazy output shooting. Without the other parts they are not as scary.
Tesla hits as well as increased costs on annhilation barges/scythes means that the lists are going to need to change.
The reanimation protocols one is mandatory additional points that hinge on one model being in range. Once again not too worried.
and yes I was talking about necrons being able to be swept in regards to the individual above me posting about their durability being obnoxious.
Leth wrote: Necrons can still be swept Don't hesitate to take advantage of that fact.
We are talking about wraiths a lot and I admit they are powerful. However they must be taken in the context of the list. Lets see what the rest of the list is made up of before we get too worried.
Besides the fact that they are fearless?
Na honestly non Harvest Wraiths are just tougher then the previous codex and got bumped up to reletivity again because its VERY hard to double them down.
Add in RP 4+++ then they get pants. like seriously pants.
He was talking about the rest of their infantry actually, which definitely is the most efficient way to kill them.
19 pages yet still nobody has actually posted an 1850 Necron list spamming these wraiths. Wraiths are more durable, yet no more killy then they were a month ago when they had access to double the firepower at least for support. Why all of a sudden are wraiths a problem again? My marines didn't have an issue beating them on missions before and they didn't have the means to efficiently kill T4 wraiths then. All I see is a distinct lack of MSS and a warscythe, the two things they leaned on in order to scare away units like wraith knights.
If you want 4+++ wraiths you need a decurion which has massive limitations on what you can take in support, want tesla barges? Sorry, you need two and a DDarc, only 400pts. Gone are the days of old where 3 AB's only set you back a measly 270 and had better firepower.
This discussion is just going in circles where someone posts a unit that can hold them up or kill a few, and some smart ass just says "But not in a decurion, or better yet with cryptek support!" Yea, now find me points.
Decrurions, harvests, D-lords and crypteks are all going to add up so incredibly fast I'd be impressed if you crammed 18 actual wraiths in and didn't leave something naked and useless.
Of course Necron players will take them. They took them under the old codex and they will take them now when they cost the same for a model with whip coils but are now tougher at T5. Why do you think lots of chaos players play Nurgle? Cause getting that T5 is brilliant. You are resistant to ID by a lot more things now. i.e. Powerfists, Meltas, Lascannons, Battle Cannons, etc, etc. Also lets not forget that the Marine staple in their codex is T5 bikes. White Scars also show us why cheap T5 is a brilliant option.
Leth wrote: My point was that what made wraiths so scary was not their CC ability, it was their CC ability supported by super durable crazy output shooting. Without the other parts they are not as scary.
Tesla hits as well as increased costs on annhilation barges/scythes means that the lists are going to need to change.
The reanimation protocols one is mandatory additional points that hinge on one model being in range. Once again not too worried.
and yes I was talking about necrons being able to be swept in regards to the individual above me posting about their durability being obnoxious.
I think you've got a wrong impression about newcron level of shootiness. It's roughly the same as before with just the change to how often they die in return.
Pdogg614 wrote: We will need to wait and see but im really thinking its not JUST the wraiths everyoner should be worried about. The whole army is insanly durable to shooting and even the basic units impossible to shift in CC unless you have a dedicated cc unit.
Ive watched a few batreps soo far and played 1 game myself, all the games were slaugters. Necron wins were all decisive. Any army that does not die or only looses a few wounds to entire army worth of shooting has insane advantages as they have alot more guns available to return more fire. The losses are all based on the army outlasting the opponents.
As a Blood Angel player this has really annoyed me. Our codex was just like most of the other recent codices where we were brought into line and the one thing we could have done with would have been something to give us a bit more survivability for jump pack troops, like a 4++ feel no pain or something. The very next release after us, this Necron release and I find that the Necrons get this ridiculous survivability with RP and the Wraiths becoming T5 to go with their 3++ save.
You mean really? Mephiston has to be brought back down to T5 because T6 for him is just too much but then you're going to have a whole unit of T5 wraiths with 3++ running about the table. Infuriating.
I feel ya my fellow son of sanguinius. Nothing more painful than being the codex RIGHT BEFORE a super OP codex.
It can take an army worth of fire power to down a harvest spyder, which is about the cost of THREE ASSAULT MARINES. Undercosted much? And it's not like the rest of the formation is a tax. The wraiths are obviously awesome, and if you're going to have a spyder, you may as well give him a little squad of scarabs to make new guys for.
I don't think I've ever seen a more obviously OP from the word go codex.
Same as last time as well. We got shafted shortly afterwards back in 5th edition when our codex was released. Are we still being punished for Rhino rush as those years back in 3rd?
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Leth wrote: My point was that what made wraiths so scary was not their CC ability, it was their CC ability supported by super durable crazy output shooting. Without the other parts they are not as scary.
Tesla hits as well as increased costs on annhilation barges/scythes means that the lists are going to need to change.
The reanimation protocols one is mandatory additional points that hinge on one model being in range. Once again not too worried.
and yes I was talking about necrons being able to be swept in regards to the individual above me posting about their durability being obnoxious.
Well lets see, it takes 90 Bolter shots in total to wipe out a squad of 10 Necron warriors. So what do you think?
Even if I was to assume that my tactical squad was rapid firing every turn at this squads it would still take me 4 and a half turns to kill them all providing I don't lose any myself.
And the hilarious thing is that 10 Warriors cost 130pts.
EDIT: Now I've just worked out it takes 135 bolter shots to kill 10 Immortals which is 170 point unit.
And that's assuming they're warriors NOT from a decurion or the shield of Baal detachment OR a standalone reclamation legion within 12" of their overlord for better RP results.
Meanwhile, I have now just worked out that it takes around 67 Gauss Blaster shots to wipe out a full squad of tacticals. However shhhh, don't tell anyone it's supposed to be a secret and we are not supposed to be scared of this new Necron codex.
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niv-mizzet wrote: And that's assuming they're warriors NOT from a decurion or the shield of Baal detachment OR a standalone reclamation legion within 12" of their overlord for better RP results.
Correct, this is using the codex entry and the standard RP of 5++
Or as has been stated you could not try to out shoot someone who is better and take advantage of where you are better. Get in to assault win by 2-3 and then watch the entire formation get swept.
Or in your decurion formation that is apparently the default formation get into combat on an objective and watch our OS unit win the game.
But hey, I can create vacuum situations that reinforce my point as well!!
Leth wrote: Or as has been stated you could not try to out shoot someone who is better and take advantage of where you are better. Get in to assault win by 2-3 and then watch the entire formation get swept.
Of course lets be smart about our targets when we do this because those wraiths we were talking about take out 3 normal marines or 2.33 Death Company with their 18 attacks base without charging. So I'm assuming you're saying that we should charge the Warriors or Immortals instead?
Or in your decurion formation that is apparently the default formation get into combat on an objective and watch our OS unit win the game.
I could take an objective secured with my tactical squads that die 3 a turn when in combat against wraiths with 18 attacks. However I was looking forward to using BSF so I could get that +1I to go with my furious charge instead.
But hey, I can create vacuum situations that reinforce my point as well!!
OK, well lets do a troop vs troop basis then in assault. 10 tacticals vs 10 Immortals.
10 Tacticals - 12 attacks (9 normal marines and 3 for the sergeant) - 6 hits - 3 wounds - 1 failed save - 0.67 failed RP's.
The marines of course will hit a bit harder if they take a power weapon on the sergeant. So if this happens then he will cause 0.5 wounds himself and the rest of unit will cause 0.5 wounds. So basically 11 wound in total and therefore the Immortals will still cause 0.75 wounds back.
A unit of 10 Immortals are 170 points and a unit of Tactical Marines with a Veteran Sergeant for his base 2 attacks characteristic and power weapon is 150 points.
So the tacticals do have a slight advantage in close combat against the Immortals, but considering that Immortals have Ld10 then a minus 1 to their break test isn't really going to do a lot. Also considering that these very same Immortals are twice as effective as shooting as this same Tactical squad then I not seeing how it will be a 10 vs 10 situation when it comes to the crunch to begin with.
Warriors are 1pt cheaper.
For 1pt SM get grenades ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics (Furious Charge for BA, Counter Attack/Acute Senses for SW, Stubborn or domething for DA), +2 I, -2 Ld, no Gauss and more options.
It seems that you guys are missing the point I am trying to make.
No unit operates on its own, you have to look at it in the context of the entire army.
Sure I could take individual units and transplant them into other armies and all of a sudden they seem super powerful in comparison. However you have to look at the situation as a whole.
People forget from having marines all the time but fear/leadership mechanics are actually pretty significant. Sure wraiths ignore it, however the majority of a necron list does not. Lets see a FULL necron wraith list that people might expect to see and we can talk about that instead of one unit versus one unit in a vacuum
So it's been pointed that Wraiths don't actually have an especially impressive damage output. Their real strength lies in being a tarpit counter to the opposition's big nasty units. To get to that stage, it will also cost them a lot of points (368 points with 6 wraiths and whip coils in a Harvest).
The solution to a tarpit, is another tarpit. The way to beat it is to find a way to tarpit the wraiths with fewer points and then focus on the rest of the army.
So, what can tarpit the wraiths for fewer than 368 points? (and of course don't forget to kill the Spyder to take the Wraiths down a peg, just as you would kill Markerlights in a Tau force first).
-Carefully placed speed bumps. Sacrifice a cheap infantry squad every other turn or two.
-High toughness MC with an invul save.
-Any unit with a large volume of wounds with an invul save.
And finally, make use of high AV or flyer transports to get your units to where they need to be before the Wraiths can scratch at them.
Most importantly, keep your important unit that the wraiths would want to tarpit out of harm's way in a high AV transport, in a flyer, or in reserves, until your own counter-tarpit has tarpitted the wraiths.
Though he didn't bring any wraiths, I did play my local Necron player on Sunday with my Orks. I brought a pretty unconventional list. Brought a Ork Hoard and Waaagh detachment, filling up my heavy support with 6 Kanz, 2 Deff Dreads and 1 Morkanaught. Then I had a defense line with Shoota Boyz and a Shokk Attack Gun, with grots running around backfield to hold objectives for me. A squad of Tankbustas and two large squads of Boyz, each with a Painboy and Mega Warboss in them.
He brought and odd list himself, mostly destroyers, some tomb blades, a Night Bringer, Scythe with an Overlord/Destroyer Overloard and some Immortals in it, and two Arks full of Warriors.
He played the shooting game, while I played the objective game. I will say, that the Necrons are insanely durable. But over the course of the game, he was having a terrible time actually hurting much I had. Even with the wound/glance on 6 rule, it took him until turn 5 to finish wiping out my Kanz, which he dedicated SO MUCH firepower into them from the destroyers and the tomb blades, even the Arks.
My Dreads tangled with his Night Bringer. Only lost 2 HP on one dread and it got immobilized, while the other was unharmed and they sliced the beast to pieces. My fresh Dread than turned on the Arks, burning some crew inside before wiping out the Ark from existence.
My Kanz spent most of the game in a shooting match with the Destroyers. Grotzookas vs Gauss. In his defense, he did roll pretty poor when it came to offense, but VERY well for defense, meaning he lost a LOT less in terms of model count than I did, despite serious pummeling from Grotzookas and my Morkanaught's Kustom Mega Kannon, Shokk Attack Gun, and the Tankbustas.
I won by points, 7 to 1. Newcrons are hard to remove, but they don't seem to do as much damage as I would have thought, even with their massed volumes of fire.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Warriors are 1pt cheaper.
For 1pt SM get grenades ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics (Furious Charge for BA, Counter Attack/Acute Senses for SW, Stubborn or domething for DA), +2 I, -2 Ld, no Gauss and more options.
That's quite a bit for 1 pt
Yes we get grenades, I suppose that is good, but then again the instances where we use grenades is usually to try and glance a vehicle or wound a high T creature. Gauss is actually quite good at doing that already and can glance AV14 which grenades will not do. I'm not sure where I stand with ATSKNF vs Ld 10. On one hand, Space Marines will always regroup but on the other hand it's more difficult for Necrons to run off the table to begin with.
As for chapter tactics I will concede that. It is worth the extra point.
First off this army would not be very fun for the opponent and I would lose friends fairly quickly hahaha. With that in mind my army would consist of:
