Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Also, unless GW says otherwise, Wraiths go at I1 when charging into terrain (just like all the other beasts). Use that to your advantage.

Not with the change to Wraithflight

That doesn't contradict initiative penalties for the assault phase, just charge distance penalties.

Sorry, but unless it specifically mentions it (like the Flip Belts on Harlequins do) or we get an errata that says it does I'm not buying into the idea that just because it gets to go over things that it ignores initiative penalties.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Also, unless GW says otherwise, Wraiths go at I1 when charging into terrain (just like all the other beasts). Use that to your advantage.

Not with the change to Wraithflight

That doesn't contradict initiative penalties for the assault phase, just charge distance penalties.

Sorry, but unless it specifically mentions it (like the Flip Belts on Harlequins do) or we get an errata that says it does I'm not buying into the idea that just because it gets to go over things that it ignores initiative penalties.

You can buy personally into whatever you want, but RAW is clear and the burden is on you to prove otherwise.

col_impact wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Also, unless GW says otherwise, Wraiths go at I1 when charging into terrain (just like all the other beasts). Use that to your advantage.

Not with the change to Wraithflight

That doesn't contradict initiative penalties for the assault phase, just charge distance penalties.

Sorry, but unless it specifically mentions it (like the Flip Belts on Harlequins do) or we get an errata that says it does I'm not buying into the idea that just because it gets to go over things that it ignores initiative penalties.

You can buy personally into whatever you want, but RAW is clear and the burden is on you to prove otherwise.

RAW is NOT clear as clear RAW would say it specifically. So burden of proof is on you to prove where it specifically says that you get to ignore the initiative penalty.

Like I said, without a FAQ I won't be buying into this.

If you want to prove me wrong get GW to prove me wrong, but in the mean time drop it because you're not going to change my mind, and this isn't YMDC.

That's fine, but it was clear enough RAW for that thread to come to an end with the decision that Wraiths don't suffer the I penalty because they don't even move through the terrain that applies it.

Flip belts and Wraithflight function differently, one says you aren't slowed while the other says treat it as Open Ground, two very different things rules-wise.

However as this is not YMDC I'll refrain from going further.

ClockworkZion, you brought it up, it's hardly reasonable to expect other people to ignore it when you start telling people a likely incorrect interpretation of the rules.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Tir Mcdoul wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
It also fails to account for Death Cults being Initiative 6.

FFS, if you're going to try to lie to me do it right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
Dont forget the priests ability to allow rerolls to wounds or reroll saves.

With 2 Priests you get both as the War Hymns are per Priest. It's fecking magic.

And re-rolling all hits during the first round of combat too.

Ok I missed the re-roll Saves as well as thought the DCA where Init 5 not 6. My mistake

However I did calculate the rerolls to hit and wound in.

Hmm was going to say your odds are only 58% chance of success for a war hymn but litanies makes it moot. Hmm

Definitely a solid CC unit. The rerollable 3++ is very nice. Yeah that could do it.

Only issue I see is that I will stop 1 squad of wraiths not multiple as it needs special characters and relics but deffinately a good start to counters.

Thanks for pointing it out.

Considering we pointed out the problem with running large numbers of Wraiths in the Decurion: namely how many points it runs. And the Battle Conclave runs less than you have to pay to run Wraiths.

And you can easily take two of these squads (one with Jacobus the other with Litanies and both with a generic priest as backup) for still less than the Harvest formations will run.

And I know it'll do it, because I did it.

It's a very strong CC unit despite being T3/S3 (which is it's biggest setback) and if it couldn't handle Wraiths I'd be pointing out why Wraiths are "totes bs". But they aren't. They're a good CC unit, but they're on part with other CC units in my book and their biggest boon is they're more durable to shooting than we're used to. I honestly feel that if people sat down with their books and their armies they could figure out something to counter, or at minimum, tarpit Wraiths enough to allow the rest of the army effective handle other threats appropriately.

Basically if you're having problems with Wraiths there are a few possibilities:

1. You're being cheated. Make sure you know how the Harvest is supposed to work.
2. Reevaluate what you're using to deal with the unit and consider other alternatives and how you can deal with them. You may have the right tools but not employing them properly.
3. Considering going back to the drawing board on your army or your tactics because you're doing something wrong.

Also, unless GW says otherwise, Wraiths go at I1 when charging into terrain (just like all the other beasts). Use that to your advantage.

mk , so Ignoring the fact that there are more than 1 Necron player who have posted the results of multiple battles in which people tailored their lists to fight them and ...... Failed.

how about you throw down some lists with the other 7th books

because I have sat down with my book and spent hours rolling out lists and only with HEAVY tailoring and pulling in allies do I come up with lists that stand a chance, and those lists are awful against anything else.

your best argument has been they don't have teeth, everyone else has pointed out that wraiths in fact do have those teeth and you're forced to deal with them because they close the gap way too quickly. their Basic troops ALSO have teeth considering they can kill anything on a battlefield from a super heavy to a GC. Heavy Destroyers have Teeth (and now JSP to go along with that survivability) Nothing in the basic formation is useless, and the others formations to go with it are very good. No you cant stick everything in one list , but no ones army can.

but you know what my argument will be made when tournament results roll in and it blows the other 7th books out of the water and likely places very high amongst or better than the other books that are considered broken.

Tekron wrote:
ClockworkZion, you brought it up, it's hardly reasonable to expect other people to ignore it when you start telling people a likely incorrect interpretation of the rules.

It's not unreasonable to say you're not going to waste time arguing what is ultimately a difference of opinion and aren't changing your mind without an FAQ or errata.

And when this was presented I emailed GW's FAQs email about it. If I'm wrong fine, but I am not accepting the internet as the unyielding bastion of rules arguments when the internet has been the source of some of the stupidest rules arguments ever (like models not being allowed to shoot because they didn't have eyes being a valid rules interpretation).

So yeah, the disagreement was presented but there is no reason for me to actually accept it without actual backing by GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackArmour wrote:

mk , so Ignoring the fact that there are more than 1 Necron player who have posted the results of multiple battles in which people tailored their lists to fight them and ...... Failed.

how about you throw down some lists with the other 7th books

because I have sat down with my book and spent hours rolling out lists and only with HEAVY tailoring and pulling in allies do I come up with lists that stand a chance, and those lists are awful against anything else.

your best argument has been they don't have teeth, everyone else has pointed out that wraiths in fact do have those teeth and you're forced to deal with them because they close the gap way too quickly. their Basic troops ALSO have teeth considering they can kill anything on a battlefield from a super heavy to a GC. Heavy Destroyers have Teeth (and now JSP to go along with that survivability) Nothing in the basic formation is useless, and the others formations to go with it are very good. No you cant stick everything in one list , but no ones army can.

but you know what my argument will be made when tournament results roll in and it blows the other 7th books out of the water and likely places very high amongst or better than the other books that are considered broken.

Are you complaining that my monobuold army of Sisters is more powerful than a 7th edition army and the only reason I won was because my codex is somehow OP?

I want whatever you're smoking.

Also I don't list tailor and still pulled out a 7vp to 3vp win vs Crone on the Emperor's Will. So yeah, I'm going to say something is wrong and it wasn't me (especially when my whole second turn shooting was so bad almost nothing was hit and what was hit failed to wound or saved).

I don't want to say "learn to play" but it's starting to feel like the only advice left at this point.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Tekron wrote:
ClockworkZion, you brought it up, it's hardly reasonable to expect other people to ignore it when you start telling people a likely incorrect interpretation of the rules.

It's not unreasonable to say you're not going to waste time arguing what is ultimately a difference of opinion and aren't changing your mind without an FAQ or errata.

And when this was presented I emailed GW's FAQs email about it. If I'm wrong fine, but I am not accepting the internet as the unyielding bastion of rules arguments when the internet has been the source of some of the stupidest rules arguments ever (like models not being allowed to shoot because they didn't have eyes being a valid rules interpretation).

So yeah, the disagreement was presented but there is no reason for me to actually accept it without actual backing by GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackArmour wrote:

mk , so Ignoring the fact that there are more than 1 Necron player who have posted the results of multiple battles in which people tailored their lists to fight them and ...... Failed.

how about you throw down some lists with the other 7th books

because I have sat down with my book and spent hours rolling out lists and only with HEAVY tailoring and pulling in allies do I come up with lists that stand a chance, and those lists are awful against anything else.

your best argument has been they don't have teeth, everyone else has pointed out that wraiths in fact do have those teeth and you're forced to deal with them because they close the gap way too quickly. their Basic troops ALSO have teeth considering they can kill anything on a battlefield from a super heavy to a GC. Heavy Destroyers have Teeth (and now JSP to go along with that survivability) Nothing in the basic formation is useless, and the others formations to go with it are very good. No you cant stick everything in one list , but no ones army can.

but you know what my argument will be made when tournament results roll in and it blows the other 7th books out of the water and likely places very high amongst or better than the other books that are considered broken.

Are you complaining that my monobuold army of Sisters is more powerful than a 7th edition army and the only reason I won was because my codex is somehow OP?

I want whatever you're smoking.

Also I don't list tailor and still pulled out a 7vp to 3vp win vs Crone on the Emperor's Will. So yeah, I'm going to say something is wrong and it wasn't me (especially when my whole second turn shooting was so bad almost nothing was hit and what was hit failed to wound or saved).

I don't want to say "learn to play" but it's starting to feel like the only advice left at this point.

First off at NO point did I say sisters were OP but I see we're resorting to putting words in peoples mouths.

what I am saying Snip Reds8n to get it is your ONE sisters list against an opponent that we have no knowledge of their skill level or if this was their first battle with their new list OR how many times you won (sounding like 1 which is great you're pulling a ton of conclusions out of one batte) doesn't offer a better sample than the [u]multiple[u] players both Necron and other wise posting their results with multiple battles both against and with the new Necrons and showing that even with list tailoring they are struggling, with the very occasional victory .

But yah know I'm sure you're just a really amazing player and everyone else on the internet just sucks. I'd say that's me putting words in your mouth but nah


BTW I'm banking I could take those newcrons and wipe the floor with your sisters and likely many other Necron players could as well.


at any rate here's where I'm going to leave this since you've made up your mind after 1 battle and decided to ignore everyone elses results here.
I'm going to wait for tournament results and then we can come back and revisit this. One way or another one of us is going to be proven right.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Tekron wrote:
ClockworkZion, you brought it up, it's hardly reasonable to expect other people to ignore it when you start telling people a likely incorrect interpretation of the rules.

It's not unreasonable to say you're not going to waste time arguing what is ultimately a difference of opinion and aren't changing your mind without an FAQ or errata.

And when this was presented I emailed GW's FAQs email about it. If I'm wrong fine, but I am not accepting the internet as the unyielding bastion of rules arguments when the internet has been the source of some of the stupidest rules arguments ever (like models not being allowed to shoot because they didn't have eyes being a valid rules interpretation).

So yeah, the disagreement was presented but there is no reason for me to actually accept it without actual backing by GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackArmour wrote:

mk , so Ignoring the fact that there are more than 1 Necron player who have posted the results of multiple battles in which people tailored their lists to fight them and ...... Failed.

how about you throw down some lists with the other 7th books

because I have sat down with my book and spent hours rolling out lists and only with HEAVY tailoring and pulling in allies do I come up with lists that stand a chance, and those lists are awful against anything else.

your best argument has been they don't have teeth, everyone else has pointed out that wraiths in fact do have those teeth and you're forced to deal with them because they close the gap way too quickly. their Basic troops ALSO have teeth considering they can kill anything on a battlefield from a super heavy to a GC. Heavy Destroyers have Teeth (and now JSP to go along with that survivability) Nothing in the basic formation is useless, and the others formations to go with it are very good. No you cant stick everything in one list , but no ones army can.

but you know what my argument will be made when tournament results roll in and it blows the other 7th books out of the water and likely places very high amongst or better than the other books that are considered broken.

Are you complaining that my monobuold army of Sisters is more powerful than a 7th edition army and the only reason I won was because my codex is somehow OP?

I want whatever you're smoking.

Also I don't list tailor and still pulled out a 7vp to 3vp win vs Crone on the Emperor's Will. So yeah, I'm going to say something is wrong and it wasn't me (especially when my whole second turn shooting was so bad almost nothing was hit and what was hit failed to wound or saved).

I don't want to say "learn to play" but it's starting to feel like the only advice left at this point.

Honestly not to doubt the level of you opponent but I have been pouring through battle reports and people games and I'm seeing a 70% win ratio with crons. And I state that a bit conservatively. Now I do think we are still in the adjustment period where people are still figuring out newcrons and they are not a complicated army to play so I imagine the advantage is with the Crons currently. Still I am thinking that Cron might be very close to a Teir 0 codex.

The biggest weakness I'm seeing in the Cron dex is a lack of AP 2. So it might be time to dust off the Terminators. I imagine paladins and gk termis handle Wraiths okay with all the force weapons they got and hammer hand.

Generic space marines will have it rough, as will tau, and Maybe even eldar. Well marines can bring in Knights which will help. Tau have to play keep away same as eldar/DE. IG,Orks, and Nids can just tarpit them. Hmm. Chaos can use DPs.

The initial shock value of how much shooting these guys can absorb is well shocking. Its going to be a pain to figure out how to counter them effectively and I don't think some armies can. They just resist shooting too well and not every army has something that can tarpit pit them well enough.

Knights seem like one of the best counters for a lot of the new Necrons lists, but at the same time there are possible Necrons lists that would effectively hard counter them.

Surprise! The lowly Hormagaunt with poison sacs should do OK.

Equal points for 1 wraith with RP put a wound on it on the charge and then about 2/3 of a wound per turn thereafter, while the wraith is killing 1.44 hormagaunts a turn.

In my experience gaunts struggle against Necrons due to gauss, but they are certainly a deterrent to wraiths getting into vulnerable positions.

I am just going to throw this out there but everyone here on the forum for one reason or another thinks necrons are good, strong, or even outright overpowered. Now I think any person here can agree they are indeed powerful, but do they simply have raw power? If you consider all the post that have been made since the start of the forum of people coming up with ways to fight them, for on reason or another people are looking at how they can fight Necrons and win! To these people I thank because I want to field necrons and I am constantly probing how i can downplay my army because I want to have fun. In contrast I want to thank everyone that has pointed out what makes the Necrons good so I know what to cut back on.

In regards to power though many other armies have a plethora of options (Space marines, tyranids, tau, eldar, etc...) so does this make Necrons balanced? Perhaps not but here is something to consider basic troop choices don't have any options to take so you automatically know what they will be packing before the match even starts. Next are elites, same think few options pretty cut and dry. Fast attack more of the same except for wraiths and tomb blades. Finally is heavy support, with the only real optional equipment being apart of the canoptek spyder. Now a glaring exception to this rule is HQ's but in most cases its fairly cut and cry and has a very limited list to choose from. Necrons also lack the ability to take psychic powers which further predicts there capabilities without the randomness of the warp.

Necrons very straight forward army and has a mass ton of killing potential, but this is still a tactical table top war game. Given that you base your assumption off of the necron player will rely on his superior firepower and ability to soak up damage could this possibly be his weakness? If you field something as versatile as Space Marines you could still do any number of things to trip up your opponent but necrons really lack versatility except for their choice of unit choices (but this is mitigated by the fact every army has this capability). With the new decurian detachment groups of units are now fully predicted you can almost guarantee that they will field 2 squads of warriors, 1 HQ, 1 squad of immortals, and 1 squad of tomb blades.

Maybe this is just rambling, but I am trying to throw thoughts and ideas out there, I have certainly been over taken before I still think back to one of my earliest matches when i marched my necrons across the field, my opponent simply let me come to him and blasted me while i marched and when i finally got close enough he deep struck drop pods in front of my units blocking line of sight to his main tanks and artillery.

Can someone explain the downsides to me if I used a force of almost purely Warriors? Obviously Deca and HQ for RP Bonus, Ghost Arks, etc.
Debating a few tarpit units to keep Warriors from getting assaulted - but I get the feeling that throwing sheer weight of dice, that always have at least a small chance to cause a wound no matter what you're facing, you're in for a good time.

Ferros wrote:
Can someone explain the downsides to me if I used a force of almost purely Warriors? Obviously Deca and HQ for RP Bonus, Ghost Arks, etc.

Touch bland.

...That's about it though.

As a Tau player I feel Tau don't have it as bad as it looks at first sight against Wraiths.

Probably the best bet for a Tau player is Fire Warriors with Ethereal, 3 s5 shots per model at 15"+ quite a few more shots from the accompanying Devilfish and drones.

23 fire warriors with an ethereal and 2 Devilfishes are around 420 points.

Step 1: Light up the Spyder with Markerlights for Ignore Cover uf needed, then blow it up.with anything heavy.you might have (inflicting 4 unsaved wounds on a 3+ t6 MC shouldn't be a bery daunting task for Tau.

Then open up on the wraiths:

69 shots from fw, 8 from devilfishes, 8 from drones. Total 85 shots. 42 hits on average, resulting in 21 wounds, which yield 7 unsaved wounds on the RP-less Wraiths, for 3.5 dead ones. If they proceed to charge you, Overwatch with Supporting fire should take down at least another one.

All of this is just theorycrafting for now as I haven't been able to get a game against new necrons yet.

Ferros wrote:
Can someone explain the downsides to me if I used a force of almost purely Warriors? Obviously Deca and HQ for RP Bonus, Ghost Arks, etc.
Debating a few tarpit units to keep Warriors from getting assaulted - but I get the feeling that throwing sheer weight of dice, that always have at least a small chance to cause a wound no matter what you're facing, you're in for a good time.

I played alot of games with such a list in 6th (no Decurion obviusosly). It worked very well for me in 6th. If my first Necron game with the new codex is any indication, I can tell you it works even better with the Decurion in 7th.

It may be a bit monotone (bland), but IME people LOVE to play against it, even if they lose, because The Terminator.

LordBlades wrote:
As a Tau player I feel Tau don't have it as bad as it looks at first sight against Wraiths.

Probably the best bet for a Tau player is Fire Warriors with Ethereal, 3 s5 shots per model at 15"+ quite a few more shots from the accompanying Devilfish and drones.

23 fire warriors with an ethereal and 2 Devilfishes are around 420 points.

Step 1: Light up the Spyder with Markerlights for Ignore Cover uf needed, then blow it up.with anything heavy.you might have (inflicting 4 unsaved wounds on a 3+ t6 MC shouldn't be a bery daunting task for Tau.

Then open up on the wraiths:

69 shots from fw, 8 from devilfishes, 8 from drones. Total 85 shots. 42 hits on average, resulting in 21 wounds, which yield 7 unsaved wounds on the RP-less Wraiths, for 3.5 dead ones. If they proceed to charge you, Overwatch with Supporting fire should take down at least another one.

All of this is just theorycrafting for now as I haven't been able to get a game against new necrons yet.

First note that the wraiths have RP until their next movement phase, they don't immediately lose it upon the leaving or death of the spyder.
Second, the spyder also has RP. This means you'll need 6 successful ap3 ignore cover wounds on average.
Third, if you obviously have the firepower to down the spyder from across the table in your army, the cron player could hide it out of LOS for the first turn. He doesn't need to see the wraiths to buff them.

It's just kind of insane that a 3 wound t6 3+ save 4+ RP mc that spawns swarms is the "weak point" of the formation. And yknow, it costs the same as a naked techmarine. After playing around with and against 7crons over the last few weeks, I'm not sure if I consider harvest wraiths or harvest spyders more broken.

niv-mizzet wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
As a Tau player I feel Tau don't have it as bad as it looks at first sight against Wraiths.

Probably the best bet for a Tau player is Fire Warriors with Ethereal, 3 s5 shots per model at 15"+ quite a few more shots from the accompanying Devilfish and drones.

23 fire warriors with an ethereal and 2 Devilfishes are around 420 points.

Step 1: Light up the Spyder with Markerlights for Ignore Cover uf needed, then blow it up.with anything heavy.you might have (inflicting 4 unsaved wounds on a 3+ t6 MC shouldn't be a bery daunting task for Tau.

Then open up on the wraiths:

69 shots from fw, 8 from devilfishes, 8 from drones. Total 85 shots. 42 hits on average, resulting in 21 wounds, which yield 7 unsaved wounds on the RP-less Wraiths, for 3.5 dead ones. If they proceed to charge you, Overwatch with Supporting fire should take down at least another one.

All of this is just theorycrafting for now as I haven't been able to get a game against new necrons yet.

First note that the wraiths have RP until their next movement phase, they don't immediately lose it upon the leaving or death of the spyder.
Second, the spyder also has RP. This means you'll need 6 successful ap3 ignore cover wounds on average.
Third, if you obviously have the firepower to down the spyder from across the table in your army, the cron player could hide it out of LOS for the first turn. He doesn't need to see the wraiths to buff them.

It's just kind of insane that a 3 wound t6 3+ save 4+ RP mc that spawns swarms is the "weak point" of the formation. And yknow, it costs the same as a naked techmarine. After playing around with and against 7crons over the last few weeks, I'm not sure if I consider harvest wraiths or harvest spyders more broken.

Fair point about the next movement phase, somehow I missed that. Same goes for the 6 wounds....somehow 3 wounds + rp computed as 4 instead of 6 in my head Either way, neither figure should be an issue for most well-built Tau armies.

Even if he hides his spyder at start, he will have to come forward sooner or later, as a shooting match plays to Tau's advantage.

I don't deny it's goimg to be tough as hell to take down the new Necrons, but I feel Tau has a better shot at it than many other codexes.

Well, yeah. That comes with the territory of being a high-tier codex. :p

LordBlades wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
As a Tau player I feel Tau don't have it as bad as it looks at first sight against Wraiths.

Probably the best bet for a Tau player is Fire Warriors with Ethereal, 3 s5 shots per model at 15"+ quite a few more shots from the accompanying Devilfish and drones.

23 fire warriors with an ethereal and 2 Devilfishes are around 420 points.

Step 1: Light up the Spyder with Markerlights for Ignore Cover uf needed, then blow it up.with anything heavy.you might have (inflicting 4 unsaved wounds on a 3+ t6 MC shouldn't be a bery daunting task for Tau.

Then open up on the wraiths:

69 shots from fw, 8 from devilfishes, 8 from drones. Total 85 shots. 42 hits on average, resulting in 21 wounds, which yield 7 unsaved wounds on the RP-less Wraiths, for 3.5 dead ones. If they proceed to charge you, Overwatch with Supporting fire should take down at least another one.

All of this is just theorycrafting for now as I haven't been able to get a game against new necrons yet.

First note that the wraiths have RP until their next movement phase, they don't immediately lose it upon the leaving or death of the spyder.
Second, the spyder also has RP. This means you'll need 6 successful ap3 ignore cover wounds on average.
Third, if you obviously have the firepower to down the spyder from across the table in your army, the cron player could hide it out of LOS for the first turn. He doesn't need to see the wraiths to buff them.

It's just kind of insane that a 3 wound t6 3+ save 4+ RP mc that spawns swarms is the "weak point" of the formation. And yknow, it costs the same as a naked techmarine. After playing around with and against 7crons over the last few weeks, I'm not sure if I consider harvest wraiths or harvest spyders more broken.

Fair point about the next movement phase, somehow I missed that. Same goes for the 6 wounds....somehow 3 wounds + rp computed as 4 instead of 6 in my head Either way, neither figure should be an issue for most well-built Tau armies.

Even if he hides his spyder at start, he will have to come forward sooner or later, as a shooting match plays to Tau's advantage.

I don't deny it's goimg to be tough as hell to take down the new Necrons, but I feel Tau has a better shot at it than many other codexes.

Unless said necron player does something evil like DS across the table with a cc unit and pops his light n makes you only hit on 6s while shooting. Meaning youre now forced to deal with that while the wraiths are moving up. Im thinking this will show up more often than people think. However thats total theory crafting at its best and is really only food for thought

I got my first encounter in with the Coven against the new and improved Necrons. The Living Tomb was accompanied by 4 Crypteks and 65 Necron Warriors.


I started with the Corpsethief claw in a corner behind a hill and his Necrons creeping up into position to hold objectives.

IN round 2, the Obelisk dropped and with it a Monolith. From the Monolith spilled 17 Necron Warriors and 12 more Necron Warriors, blasting and killing two of the 5 Talos and the Monolith bombing them. At bottom of two I brought on all the Wrack s and their Raiders but they did nothing and to top it all off I missed my charge, leaving my Talos in the wind again and with no kills to show for it!

Round 3 he blasted me again and killed another Talos, leaving me just two, while his Obelisk and now third Monolith took up a lot of space in the middle and started downing a Raider forcing my Warlord to reembark on a different one. The Necron shooting was copious. At bottom of three, my Warlord retreated into another Raider
.
Meanwhile the Grotesques and their rides screamed up the right sideline and readied themselves for war! It was turn three though and we really managed just one Glance on one Monolith at this point and almost all his Necrons still alive. My Talos charged the offending warriors they were chasing and did some damage making them flee but Reanimation Protocols were working well for him.

Round 4 the Necrons who were running from the Talos on the far left used the Veil of Darkness to slam themselves dead bang onto the objective on the far right of the field. Deft stroke, denying me Victory Points from my Corpsethief Claw ability. Most of the Necron force was on that right side at this point. Monoliths kept bombing and wounded the Talos again, the other Monolith and Necrons trying to pop the Grotesques outta their shells before they got a chance to get loose, but the Raiders held up to the damage other than immobilizing one near the Monolith on the left, leaving me two that were mobile.

Bottom of 4, the flood gates opened as both Grotesque units muti-charged from their Raiders, locking up FOUR Necron units! Rampage more than made up for the loss of the charge attack. The Necrons and Haemonculus Covens were very hearty and so this was going to take a little while to resolve. Good news is that the Haywire and the Lances, now free to re-position, loaded the near monolith with shots and took three Hull Points from it.

Top of Round 5 was furious combat as I flailed and could barely manage to kill three Necron Warriors with my best unit! I finally broke one unit but not the other three. My immobilized Raider just squatted on an objective the Monolith was contesting. At this stage I actually controlled 1 objective on the right side and he had two, one in the middle which my Grotesques were fighting to tie. Secondaries were tied also. His Veil of Darkness unit gave him control of his second objective (Obsec for the win). So on my turn I had to kill that Veil unit and threw all the Wracks I could at it using Liquifiers and poisoned weapons to chop it down to just the Cryptel and two Crons. the unit of Grotesques that was freed up tried to charge but failed.

So round 6 was all about extinguishing the remaining Cryptek and his soldiers from where he had teleported to. His Monolith and Obelisk could deny my force their 2 objectives which meant the fight came down to whether or not that Veil unit could be killed. The melee's continued and the Grotesques tore up yet more Necrons and finally killed the last resistance in the middle but the Obelisk stopped them from scoring.
At bottom of six, the Wracks and the Grotesques tore the Veil unit apart and with that, i now had two objectives. Then the Talos and the lone Raider to the left shot and killed the Monolith there which gave us three objectives.

Final Score was 11-2.Had he used his Veil a round sooner, it might have been a closer score and obviously hindsight is 20/20.

My list, with no Objective secured, ironically.

Grotesquerie (Freakish Spectacles)

140pts Urien Rakarth

210pts 5 Grotesques (Aberration W/ Scissorhand, Liquifier Gun)
65pts Raider (Aethersails, Dark Lance)

175pts 4 Grotesques (Aberration W/ Scissorhand, Liquifier Gun)
65pts Raider (Aethersails, Dark Lance)

Corpsethief Claw Detachment (Freakish Spectacle, and Scout Special Rules)
675pts 5 Talos (Feel No Pain, TL Haywire Blaster, 1 x Chain Flail, 2 x Ichor Injectors)

Covenite FleshCorps (Freakish Spectacle, Master of Flesh)

145pts Haemonculus (Liquifier, Scissorhand, Syndriq's Sump, The Khaidesi Haemovores, The Panacea Perverted, The Vexator Mask)

110pts 7 Wracks (Acothyst w Liquifier, 1 x Liquifier)
65pts Raider (Aethersails, Dark Lance)

110pts 7 Wracks (Acothyst w Liquifier, 1 x Liquifier)
65pts Raider (Aethersails, Dark Lance)

110pts 7 Wracks (Acothyst w Liquifier, 1 x Liquifier)
65pts Raider (Aethersails, Dark lance)

 BlackArmour wrote:


Unless said necron player does something evil like DS across the table with a cc unit and pops his light n makes you only hit on 6s while shooting. Meaning youre now forced to deal with that while the wraiths are moving up. Im thinking this will show up more often than people think. However thats total theory crafting at its best and is really only food for thought

That's what I plan on doing with most of my CC units. Seems to be a legit strategy.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:


Unless said necron player does something evil like DS across the table with a cc unit and pops his light n makes you only hit on 6s while shooting. Meaning youre now forced to deal with that while the wraiths are moving up. Im thinking this will show up more often than people think. However thats total theory crafting at its best and is really only food for thought

That's what I plan on doing with most of my CC units. Seems to be a legit strategy.

Ohhhh its totally legit, and ruins a gun line drown them in shots strategy

 Jancoran wrote:
I got my first encounter in with the Coven against the new and improved Necrons. The Living Tomb was accompanied by 4 Crypteks and 65 Necron Warriors.


I started with the Corpsethief claw in a corner behind a hill and his Necrons creeping up into position to hold objectives.

IN round 2, the Obelisk dropped and with it a Monolith. From the Monolith spilled 17 Necron Warriors and 12 more Necron Warriors, blasting and killing two of the 5 Talos and the Monolith bombing them. At bottom of two I brought on all the Wrack s and their Raiders but they did nothing and to top it all off I missed my charge, leaving my Talos in the wind again and with no kills to show for it!

Round 3 he blasted me again and killed another Talos, leaving me just two, while his Obelisk and now third Monolith took up a lot of space in the middle and started downing a Raider forcing my Warlord to reembark on a different one. The Necron shooting was copious. At bottom of three, my Warlord retreated into another Raider
.
Meanwhile the Grotesques and their rides screamed up the right sideline and readied themselves for war! It was turn three though and we really managed just one Glance on one Monolith at this point and almost all his Necrons still alive. My Talos charged the offending warriors they were chasing and did some damage making them flee but Reanimation Protocols were working well for him.

Round 4 the Necrons who were running from the Talos on the far left used the Veil of Darkness to slam themselves dead bang onto the objective on the far right of the field. Deft stroke, denying me Victory Points from my Corpsethief Claw ability. Most of the Necron force was on that right side at this point. Monoliths kept bombing and wounded the Talos again, the other Monolith and Necrons trying to pop the Grotesques outta their shells before they got a chance to get loose, but the Raiders held up to the damage other than immobilizing one near the Monolith on the left, leaving me two that were mobile.

Bottom of 4, the flood gates opened as both Grotesque units muti-charged from their Raiders, locking up FOUR Necron units! Rampage more than made up for the loss of the charge attack. The Necrons and Haemonculus Covens were very hearty and so this was going to take a little while to resolve. Good news is that the Haywire and the Lances, now free to re-position, loaded the near monolith with shots and took three Hull Points from it.

Top of Round 5 was furious combat as I flailed and could barely manage to kill three Necron Warriors with my best unit! I finally broke one unit but not the other three. My immobilized Raider just squatted on an objective the Monolith was contesting. At this stage I actually controlled 1 objective on the right side and he had two, one in the middle which my Grotesques were fighting to tie. Secondaries were tied also. His Veil of Darkness unit gave him control of his second objective (Obsec for the win). So on my turn I had to kill that Veil unit and threw all the Wracks I could at it using Liquifiers and poisoned weapons to chop it down to just the Cryptel and two Crons. the unit of Grotesques that was freed up tried to charge but failed.

So round 6 was all about extinguishing the remaining Cryptek and his soldiers from where he had teleported to. His Monolith and Obelisk could deny my force their 2 objectives which meant the fight came down to whether or not that Veil unit could be killed. The melee's continued and the Grotesques tore up yet more Necrons and finally killed the last resistance in the middle but the Obelisk stopped them from scoring.
At bottom of six, the Wracks and the Grotesques tore the Veil unit apart and with that, i now had two objectives. Then the Talos and the lone Raider to the left shot and killed the Monolith there which gave us three objectives.

Final Score was 11-2.Had he used his Veil a round sooner, it might have been a closer score and obviously hindsight is 20/20.

My list, with no Objective secured, ironically.

Grotesquerie (Freakish Spectacles)

140pts Urien Rakarth

210pts 5 Grotesques (Aberration W/ Scissorhand, Liquifier Gun)
65pts Raider (Aethersails, Dark Lance)

175pts 4 Grotesques (Aberration W/ Scissorhand, Liquifier Gun)
65pts Raider (Aethersails, Dark Lance)

Corpsethief Claw Detachment (Freakish Spectacle, and Scout Special Rules)
675pts 5 Talos (Feel No Pain, TL Haywire Blaster, 1 x Chain Flail, 2 x Ichor Injectors)

Covenite FleshCorps (Freakish Spectacle, Master of Flesh)

145pts Haemonculus (Liquifier, Scissorhand, Syndriq's Sump, The Khaidesi Haemovores, The Panacea Perverted, The Vexator Mask)

110pts 7 Wracks (Acothyst w Liquifier, 1 x Liquifier)
65pts Raider (Aethersails, Dark Lance)

110pts 7 Wracks (Acothyst w Liquifier, 1 x Liquifier)
65pts Raider (Aethersails, Dark Lance)

110pts 7 Wracks (Acothyst w Liquifier, 1 x Liquifier)
65pts Raider (Aethersails, Dark lance)

Hooray Dark Eldar! I'm thinking that the auto-wound on 6 from Gauss isn't as serious as I thought. Given a S4 gun, the Talos still get wounded on a 6, so unless you're T8 or higher the auto wound won't be relevant. Wounding on 6 is much less effective than a necron might hope (my Touch of Rust plaguebearers can attest). A Dark Artisan should be able to eat quite a few warrior shots without paying for wasted Toughness. Of course, it comes back to "how do you kill these things", but maybe you just try to tie up the shootier units and proceed to focus fire on everything else while grabbing objectives with fast movers.

For other armies, psychic spam will be a boon. Swat the heavy hitters with debuffs then hide out of range or LOS for anything that isn't tarpitted. I wonder how a Librarian/CentStar would manage at tanking hits.

Perhaps you don't even try to kill them, but buy time while you grab objectives. Trying to kill them only plays to their strength, after all.

Dark Eldar and Necrons are a good match up so are the Tyranids as long as you don't have soem guy bringing a horrible 4 Flyrants list.

I have not yet played the Newcrons, so don't take me too seriously here.

LordBlades wrote:
I don't deny it's going to be tough as hell to take down the new Necrons, but I feel Tau has a better shot at it than many other codexes.

While this statement is probably true, Tau can spam more S5 and S7 weaponry, which has a better chance of wounding the spyder and wraiths, it isn't enough. The CH simply will not die to shooting before it has done its job. 1 wraith will be soaking up around 12 Pulse WOUNDS. So with an Ethereal and a single marker hit, a full FW squad could kill a single wraith. And to do that they have to give up Stubborn in the assault phase and be within easy charge range.

Sure, Tau can hurt them more than some other Codices, in the 1-2 shooting phases before they get into combat, but it isn't going to remove the threat. As far as I can tell, the only way to deal with the CH is with fearless Tarpit units or with D weapons, hoping for the magical 6. Tau don't have great tarpit units, and the ones they have require a nearby Ethereal granting Stubborn and Ld 10.

I'm not saying Tau can't beat Newcrons, I'm sure they can. However, if you are going to run pure Tau, you better have a plan to win that doesn't involve shooting a CH off the table in the first 2 turns.

lustigjh wrote:

Hooray Dark Eldar! I'm thinking that the auto-wound on 6 from Gauss isn't as serious as I thought. Given a S4 gun, the Talos still get wounded on a 6, so unless you're T8 or higher the auto wound won't be relevant. Wounding on 6 is much less effective than a necron might hope (my Touch of Rust plaguebearers can attest). A Dark Artisan should be able to eat quite a few warrior shots without paying for wasted Toughness. Of course, it comes back to "how do you kill these things", but maybe you just try to tie up the shootier units and proceed to focus fire on everything else while grabbing objectives with fast movers.

For other armies, psychic spam will be a boon. Swat the heavy hitters with debuffs then hide out of range or LOS for anything that isn't tarpitted. I wonder how a Librarian/CentStar would manage at tanking hits.

Perhaps you don't even try to kill them, but buy time while you grab objectives. Trying to kill them only plays to their strength, after all.

The autowound was useful against my Talos and of course so were the large blast templates which never seemed to miss! Ouch. The Tesla Cannons were also quite good. He had a fair amount that could hurt my MC's. His shooting was fully capable of shooting up my Raiders as well which is why I reserved them to start the game and let the game develop a little. It limited the amount of fire he could get on me and limited where he would WANT to put the Obelisk and Monoliths to begin.

His mobility was good enough to get anywhere he needed to be, so he was taking advantage of that and taking up a lot of space but the Dark eldar were victorious nonetheless.

I have since advised my friend to make a slight modification to this list, one which will substantially increase his effectiveness I think. I advised him to take two units (6 and 7) of Flayed Ones in order to play as an offensive picket against the kind of multicharging my army was capable of. This did not reduce his number of units (but did cost him his Ressurection orbs) and so the skeleton of the list is unchanged other than that there will be 5 more bodies on the table and some of them will be quite good at smashing into things and then melting on the enemies turn. Perfect solution for keeping his shooting alive and his ability to score at will alive with it.

 Jancoran wrote:

lustigjh wrote:

Hooray Dark Eldar! I'm thinking that the auto-wound on 6 from Gauss isn't as serious as I thought. Given a S4 gun, the Talos still get wounded on a 6, so unless you're T8 or higher the auto wound won't be relevant. Wounding on 6 is much less effective than a necron might hope (my Touch of Rust plaguebearers can attest). A Dark Artisan should be able to eat quite a few warrior shots without paying for wasted Toughness. Of course, it comes back to "how do you kill these things", but maybe you just try to tie up the shootier units and proceed to focus fire on everything else while grabbing objectives with fast movers.

For other armies, psychic spam will be a boon. Swat the heavy hitters with debuffs then hide out of range or LOS for anything that isn't tarpitted. I wonder how a Librarian/CentStar would manage at tanking hits.

Perhaps you don't even try to kill them, but buy time while you grab objectives. Trying to kill them only plays to their strength, after all.

The autowound was useful against my Talos and of course so were the large blast templates which never seemed to miss! Ouch. The Tesla Cannons were also quite good. He had a fair amount that could hurt my MC's. His shooting was fully capable of shooting up my Raiders as well which is why I reserved them to start the game and let the game develop a little. It limited the amount of fire he could get on me and limited where he would WANT to put the Obelisk and Monoliths to begin.

His mobility was good enough to get anywhere he needed to be, so he was taking advantage of that and taking up a lot of space but the Dark eldar were victorious nonetheless.

I have since advised my friend to make a slight modification to this list, one which will substantially increase his effectiveness I think. I advised him to take two units (6 and 7) of Flayed Ones in order to play as an offensive picket against the kind of multicharging my army was capable of. This did not reduce his number of units (but did cost him his Ressurection orbs) and so the skeleton of the list is unchanged other than that there will be 5 more bodies on the table and some of them will be quite good at smashing into things and then melting on the enemies turn. Perfect solution for keeping his shooting alive and his ability to score at will alive with it.

To be fair, I think most armies have basic guns that can shoot up Raiders. It's a pretty big waste of shots to do so, although that will still force jinks. In theory, the "points cost" for gauss will have been wasted on a useless upgrade.

Ferros wrote:
Can someone explain the downsides to me if I used a force of almost purely Warriors?

Monstrous Creatures. You can't do squat to them if they make it into assault with your warriors.

Assault Heavy Armies in General. Even with RP, warriors lack ATSKNF, and any assault options. They'll eventually lose in assualt verses anything made for close combat.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
From the LVO results thread

gungo wrote:

Frontlinegaming.org
Currently sitting at the top of the pack with a 4-0 record is;

Matt Root Orks/Orks

Alan B. (PJ Pants) Chaos Daemons/Tyranids

Brandon Grant Dark Angels/Astra Mil

Nick Nanavati Chaos Daemons/Inquisition

Isreal Sanchez Tau Enclave

Nick Rose Space Marines/Blood Angels

Nathanal Woolhouse Eldar/Dark Eldar

John Parsons Eldar

Michael Kiser Adeptius Sororitas/Astra Mil

Tyler DeVries Eldar

Ben Cromwell Eldar

Cooper Waddell Space Marines

Ian Ager Space Wolves

Not a single Necron list in the top results.

So maybe Necrons aren't the over hyped broken goodness after all ?

lustigjh wrote:


To be fair, I think most armies have basic guns that can shoot up Raiders. It's a pretty big waste of shots to do so, although that will still force jinks. In theory, the "points cost" for gauss will have been wasted on a useless upgrade.

I didn't understand what this comment is referring to? What points cost? Gauss comes standard. Am I misunderstanding?

As for people having guns that can shoot raiders: sure. I see no reason to give them extra turns ot do so though.

 adamsouza wrote:

Not a single Necron list in the top results.

So maybe Necrons aren't the over hyped broken goodness after all ?

Or maybe they haven't had time to paint decurions and practice with them? From all the pics I saw, I only saw two wraithwing armies, which I believe to be totally inferior to a balanced decurion. And still out of several hundred people, you can spot two necron armies around rank 30 iirc. I couldn't pick out any decurions from the army pics, but I may have missed them.

Going off of a sample size of one tournament a few weeks after the codex drops is hardly substantial evidence. I have a feeling if this codex had been switched with say...space wolves back in last year, we'd see a lot stronger necron presence.

More likely to see Necrons placing well in tournaments once players have had time to figure out some lists with allies.

My point was, and still is, that if Necrons were as broken good, as many of their critics here on dakka claim, they would have placed better.

Or maybe they haven't had time to paint decurions and practice with them?

Because no one owned or played Necrons in 6th or 7th edition before the new codex ? It's not like there were any new models.
Any Tounament minded Necron player owned warriors, immortals, and an overlord. Although, I concede that Tomb Blades may not have been in everyones collection.
Even without tomb blades, all you need are Crypteks from a royal court added to your CAD to get that lovely 4+RP.

More likely to see Necrons placing well in tournaments once players have had time to figure out some lists with allies.

I'm sure that will happen in the future. But the LVO results fly counter to the argument that Necrons are so OP that it's an automatic win.

Some people are putting soo much weight on the worst case Math-hammer scenarios that they are psyking themselves out before even facing off against a Necron force.

 adamsouza wrote:
Some people are putting soo much weight on the worst case Math-hammer scenarios that they are psyking themselves out before even facing off against a Necron force.

That's been my take as well. I think every army has the tools to counter Necrons and their durability, it's just a matter of employing them.

Who said they were so OP that they auto win? ANY army can lose. A guardsman can beat abbadon in melee.

If anything, the army win %'s tell us more than which 8 guys played well and were lucky enough to avoid bad matchups and wrath of the dice gods. And those %'s say necrons were doing awesome, with the 4th highest win % at a very competitive event. That speaks a lot louder to me than "a necron list didn't win this ONE tournament so they must not be OP" logic that SOME people are using.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Some people are putting soo much weight on the worst case Math-hammer scenarios that they are psyking themselves out before even facing off against a Necron force.

That's been my take as well. I think every army has the tools to counter Necrons and their durability, it's just a matter of employing them.

What I've found in my games so far is that people were using the same tactics to dispatch Space Marines to dispatch Necrons, High Strength/low AP, tryiing to deny saves. That used to work really well against Necrons, and now not so much. I thought my Saturday night opponent was going to call me a witch when my Necron warriors survived plasma and melta attacks. He didn't seem to notice so much when my warrirors fell to his massed bolter fire.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Who said they were so OP that they auto win? ANY army can lose. A guardsman can beat abbadon in melee.

If anything, the army win %'s tell us more than which 8 guys played well and were lucky enough to avoid bad matchups and wrath of the dice gods. And those %'s say necrons were doing awesome, with the 4th highest win % at a very competitive event. That speaks a lot louder to me than "a necron list didn't win this ONE tournament so they must not be OP" logic that SOME people are using.

I was getting browbeat with some claims of it. And even if they didn't win, they didn't take the top spots of the tournament right after we had people saying they would. Maybe that'll change in the future, but the longer we go on, the more practice people will have against them and the better the counters will get.

This was probably the best chance for Crons to drop stuff on people they weren't ready for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 adamsouza wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Some people are putting soo much weight on the worst case Math-hammer scenarios that they are psyking themselves out before even facing off against a Necron force.

That's been my take as well. I think every army has the tools to counter Necrons and their durability, it's just a matter of employing them.

What I've found in my games so far is that people were using the same tactics to dispatch Space Marines to dispatch Necrons, High Strength/low AP, tryiing to deny saves. That used to work really well against Necrons, and now not so much. I thought my Saturday night opponent was going to call me a witch when my Necron warriors survived plasma and melta attacks. He didn't seem to notice so much when my warrirors fell to his massed bolter fire.

Personally I think denying saves is still good as the less saves they can roll the more likely models will die. That said massed wounds are probably the most reliable method unless your opponent's dice are rolling hot.

I agree, it was a good chance to dark horse their way in, unfortunately, it seems less like they failed to, and more like they just decided not to. There were only 13 cron lists on the win % chart, and I saw a few of them from the pics, and they might've been 5crons. They certainly weren't decurions.

If they had the same amount of player representation as eldar or marines, this discussion would probably be very different right now.

Not that different. Bandwagoning doesn't really prove that an army is actually OP, just that it's popular.

It's also possible that, because of the LVO's comp rules, Decurion Necrons may not be an option for many players. Doesn't the LVO only allow two detachments/formations? If so, that puts some hard limits on what the Decurion can do.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Personally I think denying saves is still good as the less saves they can roll the more likely models will die. That said massed wounds are probably the most reliable method unless your opponent's dice are rolling hot.

You are correct. Low AP weapons reduce Necrons to just RP saves, but it's not nearly as effective as it is against Space Marines. I think the main problem, for a lot of people, is they are used to treating Necrons as I2 Space Marines, and they haven't adapted theri tactics yet.

My last opponent tailored his list for fighting Necrons, and still brought devastator squads with missle launchers, instead of Heavy Bolters. He used the Space Marine chapter tactic that let his bolters rend, instead of rapid fire.

 adamsouza wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Personally I think denying saves is still good as the less saves they can roll the more likely models will die. That said massed wounds are probably the most reliable method unless your opponent's dice are rolling hot.

You are correct. Low AP weapons reduce Necrons to just RP saves, but it's not nearly as effective as it is against Space Marines. I think the main problem, for a lot of people, is they are used to treating Necrons as I2 Space Marines, and they haven't adapted theri tactics yet.

My last opponent tailored his list for fighting Necrons, and still brought devastator squads with missle launchers, instead of Heavy Bolters. He used the Space Marine chapter tactic that let his bolters rend, instead of rapid fire.

Yeah, there are some things that need to be tweaked to handle stuff.

The thing is I don't think that it's a lot of stuff that needs to be tweaked in people's lists (especially Guard who are already running large blast templates and Autocannons anyways), but some extra consideration on what you run to deal with the Steel Horde can't hurt.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/las-vegas-open-hotel-booking/las-vegas-open-2015-warhammer-40k-championships/

Lol ohhh they DO have a formation restriction, which yes hurts decurion, also they are allowing BOTH the 5th and 7th books for necrons (so we dont even know whats what) Also making it very likely there is alot of 5th books there as its what they wouldve practiced for and had models for (tomb blades are sold out if you didnt have them before)

However keep clinging to the hope it has proved youre point though gentlemen. (Lol it hasnt)

So basically the very thing I said tournaments can do to restrict Decurion silliness was the very thing used to prevent Decurion silliness?

Gee, isn't that just interesting?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So basically the very thing I said tournaments can do to restrict Decurion silliness was the very thing used to prevent Decurion silliness?

Gee, isn't that just interesting?

So we conclusively learned jack gak about the power level of crons through LVO? lel

 Desubot wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So basically the very thing I said tournaments can do to restrict Decurion silliness was the very thing used to prevent Decurion silliness?

Gee, isn't that just interesting?

So we conclusively learned jack gak about the power level of crons through LVO? lel

We learned that the thing I mentioned more than once to curb potential abuse works.

Also we learned that people who were claiming that this tournament would prove them right about how "broken" the new codex is were so wrong it's not funny.

Mmmmm well by curb stomping the abuse you really didnt get any sort of gauge on its actual power level its pretty moot.

its like banning WS and calling them gak tier.

still waiting and seeing.

What precisely have they done to restrict Decurions in there? I don't see a direct mention.

I wouldn't say nothing. The format still allowed for CAD +1, Decurion + 1, and oldcrons.

CAD + 1 didn't place top 25

Decurion +1 didn't place top 25

Oldcrons - There were Necron players who thought there best chance of winning was with the 5th edition codex, instead of the new codex, still didn't place top 25.

CAD + Canoptek Swarm, allows for the alledged "magic, unkillable" Wraiths and Scarabs with RP

Oldcrons allows Teleporting, Haywire Royal Courts that make vehicles cry

Decurion + Canoptek Swarm, allows for legions of warriors with 4+RP and Ghost Arks, and "unkillable" wraiths, etc...

If the codex is actually broken good, like many have claimed, then all the Necron players at the tournament would either had to have been incompetent, or seriously bad dice rolling, affected all of them.

changemod wrote:
What precisely have they done to restrict Decurions in there? I don't see a direct mention.

Not necessarily Decurion-specfic restrictions, no. You're limited to two detachments. In fact, going by the exact wording of the LVO comp rules, the Decurion may not even be allowed as the restrictions state 0-1 formations, and the Decurion is nothing but formations. Without asking anyone who was there, we don't know if an exception might have been granted (for instance, a "0-1 Codex Specific Detachment" is allowed, so that might be a way for them to allow a Decurion using one Reclamation Legion + one other formation). Who knows? The fact that a Decurion is a detachment made up of formations tends to take the 2-Detachment-Rule and turn it on its ear if it doesn't specifically address it.

What I don't like about a blanket limit on the Decurion to being two formations is that the limit is really only put in place to stop the Wraith spam that some fear. What if I like Deathmarks? Hell, what if I just want to play a Reclamation Legion with a unit of Deathmarks and a unit of Flayed Ones? Can't do that with the 2-formation limit, and yet I doubt anyone is going to say that's a broken selection of formations there. It's a case of one bad apple spoiling the barrel.

Wouldn't Decurion + CH be 2 decurions? or are they doing wonky things with formations.

The Decurion Detachments is ONE Detachment that is made up OF Formations.

So if a tournament allows two detachments, then the Decurion in its entirety would be one of them. Pretty straightforward.

Out of 220something players, there were a grand total of 13 players with a primary detachment of necrons plus one more than brought them as a secondary. It's an event with some not insignificant house rules and army construction restrictions. This is also an event people usually build armies for long in advance and often practice for several months for, switching over to a new book that comes out a couple weeks before the event and expecting lots of players to take full advantage of the new book (often including buying and painting new units, particularly for running a Decurion) in just a few days before traveling cross-country may be expecting a bit much.

Likewise, with a Dark Angels and Sororitas list placing relatively highly, do we conclude these are powerhouse army books? Probably not.

So is the Necrons are broken good club back peddling to Necrons are going to be broken good, a few months from now, if they get to play a Decurion, and get to spam formations ?

 adamsouza wrote:
So is the Necrons are broken good club back peddling to Necrons are going to be broken good, a few months from now, if they get to play a Decurion, and get to spam formations ?

More like Necrons are bad when they are house ruled.

There is no conclusive data to do gak.

 adamsouza wrote:
So is the Necrons are broken good club back peddling to Necrons are going to be broken good, a few months from now, if they get to play a Decurion, and get to spam formations ?

So, we're considering the LVO and the ironclad and definitive determination on Necron power level and calling any points brought up regarding the LVO environment and timing relative to the new codex release date "backpedaling"?

Particularly when (at least to my knowledge) we don't know how many used the new book or what they ran?

 Vaktathi wrote:
Out of 220something players, there were a grand total of 13 players with a primary detachment of necrons plus one more than brought them as a secondary. It's an event with some not insignificant house rules and army construction restrictions. This is also an event people usually build armies for long in advance and often practice for several months for, switching over to a new book that comes out a couple weeks before the event and expecting lots of players to take full advantage of the new book (often including buying and painting new units, particularly for running a Decurion) in just a few days before traveling cross-country may be expecting a bit much.

Likewise, with a Dark Angels and Sororitas list placing relatively highly, do we conclude these are powerhouse army books? Probably not.

Adepta Sororitas are very good. It doesnt surprise me, ever, when they do well.

I mean, all of this arguing over a tournaments results are great, but it really doesn't matter. 13 people had a primary detachment of Necrons? Out of how many people? Over 200? That alone is unlikely to prove much. The higher placed players are obviously Eldar or whatever, because most people are playing them. And we're also talking a brand new codex, with the house rules stated above, against the same cheesy lists people always play (Serpent Spam, Greyknights with IK allies, ext). I'm mainly concerned of the straight up raw power of this codex and nothing else. Adding tournament house rules and judging based on a competitive scene in a game that is unbalanced anyway, is rather pointless. At least that's how I see it.

I'm going to add my two cents here. When I first read the Codex I was disappointed. They took away so much of what I played, I felt robbed even violated. Now that I have played a few games I'm really happy about some of the changes. We are far more durable. Overall I think we lost a bit of our competitive abilities, but like any good Necron I will adapt. The new formations can be really strong. Tournaments will prove which armies are the toughest not personal opinions. I feel GW is trying to simplify all the armies which is a little sad. I liked the different flavors each army had. :-(

 Vaktathi wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
So is the Necrons are broken good club back peddling to Necrons are going to be broken good, a few months from now, if they get to play a Decurion, and get to spam formations ?

So, we're considering the LVO and the ironclad and definitive determination on Necron power level and calling any points brought up regarding the LVO environment and timing relative to the new codex release date "backpedaling"?

Particularly when (at least to my knowledge) we don't know how many used the new book or what they ran?

Do you like to avoid answering questions by asking conversation redirecting questions ?

---

Reasons given, in this thread, why Necrons didn't dominate the LVO
1.) Timing - They only had weeks to prepare using the new codex. The alledged cheese that makes necron's broken needs to age like actual cheese. The internet critics are quick to point out everything that is broken good, but somehow the Necron players weren't able to figure it out.

2.) Models They only had 2 weeks to build and paint their forces. 13 Necron players, and none of them owned the requisite models for a Decurion ? I get that Tomb Blades weren't top tier last codex, and Lychguard and Praetoreans are better, but no one has accused them of being the magic broken cheese units of the new codex. If only wraiths and scarabs were popular last codex, oh wait they were.

3.) LVO Restrictions - 2 detachments. CAD +1 Detachment, or Decurion(which is a minimum 2 detachments)
Necrons were unable to unlease the full power of the decurion.
Either the argument is then Necrons need the Decurion to be broken, or need to spam the detachments to be broken.
BOTH of which are backpeddling from the initial hysteria.

The LVO is not a indication at all of the strength level of the codex and you using it as a example is a base rate fallacy.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
So is the Necrons are broken good club back peddling to Necrons are going to be broken good, a few months from now, if they get to play a Decurion, and get to spam formations ?

So, we're considering the LVO and the ironclad and definitive determination on Necron power level and calling any points brought up regarding the LVO environment and timing relative to the new codex release date "backpedaling"?

Particularly when (at least to my knowledge) we don't know how many used the new book or what they ran?

Do you like to avoid answering questions by asking conversation redirecting questions ?

I'm trying to point out you're accusing others of something based on a singular example with some notable issues.

Reasons given, in this thread, why Necrons didn't dominate the LVO
1.) Timing - They only had weeks to prepare using the new codex. The alledged cheese that makes necron's broken needs to age like actual cheese. The internet critics are quick to point out everything that is broken good, but somehow the Necron players weren't able to figure it out.

You're intentionally avoiding the point people are talking about with time here. Again, this is an event most players don't just make a list for the day before. Most people going to the LVO make a list weeks or months in advance, and spend a lot of time building, painting and practicing with said army. A radical change to that, particularly with real life in the way, often isn't possible to adapt to in like two weeks.

2.) Models They only had 2 weeks to build and paint their forces. 13 Necron players, and none of them owned the requisite models for a Decurion ? I get that Tomb Blades weren't top tier last codex, and Lychguard and Praetoreans are better, but no one has accused them of being the magic broken cheese units of the new codex. If only wraiths and scarabs were popular last codex, oh wait they were.

Yes those two units were. Do they have as many as they'd like to run with the new book? Built as they'd like? Do they have Tomb Blades at all to run a Decurion detachment with? Do they have all the Warriors they would need? Are they practiced with the mechanics of the new book?

3.) LVO Restrictions - 2 detachments. CAD +1 Detachment, or Decurion(which is a minimum 2 detachments)
Necrons were unable to unlease the full power of the decurion.
Either the argument is then Necrons need the Decurion to be broken, or need to spam the detachments to be broken.
BOTH of which are backpeddling from the initial hysteria.

Or it's only one aspect of a multi-faceted argument...



If the book had come out in Nov/Dec, these results might mean more. As far as I'm aware, we don't know how many used the new book versus the old book, how many tried running a Decurion vs a CAD, what the lists looked like, or anything else, we only know the rankings, the number of Necron players, and the if Necrons were a primary or a secondary detachment.

Read through most of this and im curious, if anyone has brought up Hellfrost yet. Its been a while since I have read it outright but a model that takes a wound and lives (in this case via RP) takes a strength check and if fails is removed from play

Reanimation protocols are similar to IWND correct? in that they restore an unsaved wound but in their case even if the model is dead. It is not a save similar to FNP and IWND so could pie plating Hellfrost all over weaker mobs of warriors and such be the key to an forcing more rolls which we all know is the death to any army.

Am I wrong? If so why

edit for clarity

 adamsouza wrote:
So is the Necrons are broken good club back peddling to Necrons are going to be broken good, a few months from now, if they get to play a Decurion, and get to spam formations ?

Note the yellow text. I didn't even mention LVO there. My comment was directed at the change of direction of the comments of the critics.

The tone went from "ZOMG THEY ARE BROKEN" to "Well, you see, m'kay, in the confines of the tournament scene Necrons are not able to operate at their full potential"

I don't think they are broken.
I'm not making up justifications for why they didn't dominate the tournament.
I'm not justifying why I'm making justifications.

I pointed out the LVO results, pages back, to rub it in the face of those who said "wait until the first tournament results start coming in" to justify their arguments of how broken Necrons are.

I'll be happy to revisit this conversation, 3 months from now, after we get more tournament results because I'm confident that Necrons still won't be dominating the tournament scene.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Out of 220something players, there were a grand total of 13 players with a primary detachment of necrons plus one more than brought them as a secondary. It's an event with some not insignificant house rules and army construction restrictions. This is also an event people usually build armies for long in advance and often practice for several months for, switching over to a new book that comes out a couple weeks before the event and expecting lots of players to take full advantage of the new book (often including buying and painting new units, particularly for running a Decurion) in just a few days before traveling cross-country may be expecting a bit much.

Likewise, with a Dark Angels and Sororitas list placing relatively highly, do we conclude these are powerhouse army books? Probably not.

Adepta Sororitas are very good. It doesnt surprise me, ever, when they do well.

Sisters are a solid middle tier with one specific kind of list in my experience, but they also have a couple of bad match ups too. Mostly from Guard, Tau and Orks.

It's not impossible to win, but you definitely have to expect an uphill fight with those bad matches.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Out of 220something players, there were a grand total of 13 players with a primary detachment of necrons plus one more than brought them as a secondary. It's an event with some not insignificant house rules and army construction restrictions. This is also an event people usually build armies for long in advance and often practice for several months for, switching over to a new book that comes out a couple weeks before the event and expecting lots of players to take full advantage of the new book (often including buying and painting new units, particularly for running a Decurion) in just a few days before traveling cross-country may be expecting a bit much.

Likewise, with a Dark Angels and Sororitas list placing relatively highly, do we conclude these are powerhouse army books? Probably not.

Adepta Sororitas are very good. It doesnt surprise me, ever, when they do well.

Sisters are a solid middle tier with one specific kind of list in my experience, but they also have a couple of bad match ups too. Mostly from Guard, Tau and Orks.

It's not impossible to win, but you definitely have to expect an uphill fight with those bad matches.

My Sisters of Battle deal pretty well with everything. I think my only real struggles with Sisters of Battle came when they fought against FMC spam. But then, that's pretty much everyone, so I don't feel too bad about those losses. Other than that, I don't struggle with them.

The builds i have used successfully are the highly mechanized Sisters, Multiple large units, and also did win three tournaments by taking one of everything in the codex (literally). I won three out of four tournaments with that list. You wouldn't have thunk it, but the results were there to see.

Necron units are more overtly good at what they do. The thing I am liking so much about the necrons now is that they have a legitimate reason to be played with a heavy contingent of Warriors. Every choice in the codex can be built around, so there are no terribad things to play in it, yet they raised points on the really good stuff, so even the really good stuff is at least cost'd fairly for the enemy.

I am looking forward to fighting more for and against them.

 Jancoran wrote:


Necron units are more overtly good at what they do. The thing I am liking so much about the necrons now is that they have a legitimate reason to be played with a heavy contingent of Warriors. Every choice in the codex can be built around, so there are no terribad things to play in it, yet they raised points on the really good stuff, so even the really good stuff is at least cost'd fairly for the enemy.

I am looking forward to fighting more for and against them.

This is why I believe the Necron book got stronger. not because they necessarily gained more firepower or anything, but because everything is useable, so they gained access to a lot more viable lists and builds. Plus, there's more synergy between units, which is always nice.

LVO results are representative - necrons are fine 7th edition codex, but absolutely uncomparable with the top tier ones now. Maybe the will be interesting when all 6th edition codexes will be roled out.

New codex is even weaker against present meta of flyrants, knights, S7 shooting and centstars.

elotar wrote:
LVO results are representative - necrons are fine 7th edition codex

Was there List building rules and limitations shown?

Do we even know the lists and match ups? (serious question was these posted?)

Here is the thing that bothers me about some of the arguments I am hearing.

Because there are things out there worse than Necrons, Necrons are fine. There is such a huge swing in this game from bad, to mediocre, to good, to broken that you see people claiming Necrons are fine the way they are because there are things that are better than them in the tournament scene. You know what? That doesn't mean anything that if the army as a whole is completely unfun to play against due to their power level in comparison to other codices. Not everyone plays at the absolute highest level of competition that this game allows for and not everyone is interested in throwing away 80% of their codex in order to play a list that can compete.

The main issue in this codex along with the Tau codex is that you don't really have many bad choices, most every unit is competent to good at what it does with a few outlier units that are to good at what they do. Necrons are worse than Tau in this regard because the Tau baseline without its more powerful units are fairly in line with other armies competent units, while even the competent units in the Necron codex outshine competent units in other codices.

It is the same as saying that Tyranids are fine because they just won the LVO. No, no they are not just fine. They have exactly one viable build and that is to spam as many Flyrants as possible and ignore the rest of the codex. YES I know that is an exaggeration, I know that there are other decent units in the codex but a good deal of the codex is just swamped in awful to unusable units. The Tyranid codex has the worst internal balance of any of the codices out there right now and yet it can still win GTs, that doesn't make it okay!

Just like Tyranids, Necrons have a problem that has less to do with the ultimate power level of the game but the median power level of the game. Necrons have this problem at the meta level and Tyranids have this problem at the codex level. Necrons peak is lower than other codices but in a general setting without focusing on the most hardened of list it is an abysmally unfun list to play against. Some armies are strangely apt at fighting the new list, like SoB, my SoB have no problem facing off against the new Necrons because I can force so many wounds with flamers on their troops and tear up their harder stuff with meltas and exorcist. SoB also have the unique position that they have one of the best counters to Wraiths that exist in the game with the Conclave, as has already been discussed here. Being able to cheaply throw a unit with 3++, high initiative mass attacks, and rerollable saves is exactly what other armies need to counter wraiths. But let that sink in, ALL of that is the best way to counter wraiths and is that really the level we want this game to reside at? Obviously not, but who is surprised that GW doesn't care about the game and only wants to push sales even harder?

 krodarklorr wrote:
So, going over the codex again and again, and talking with some friends of mine, I've realized that Necrons, while very well balanced internally, are crazy powerful compared to how they used to be. I've sat down and thought of all the issues I've had fighting against other armies, and no armies out there (save for an entire Imperial Knight army) really threatens me anymore. Necrons see to have an answer for everything, since all of their units are viable now. HQs aren't quite as killy, but more supportive, and arguable harder to kill. Troops are tough as nails. Elites are cheaper and everything has a viable use. Heavy Supports are worth it now. Fast Attack are still good, and even more became good. And the Decurion Detachment is ridiculous. Sure, I personally feel it gives the book it's own flavor, and is very fluffy in itself, but the benefits seem to be too good, when you think about it.

Necrons very well could be the next Eldar in terms of power level, though without a lot of cheese. I don't wanna become "that guy" that nobody wants to play because Necrons are too good.

Do you guys think the power level is in a good spot? Or is it too much to handle compared to other 7th edition codexes? And if it is too much, what can we expect to see from other 7th edition codexes when they start updating them. What are your guy's thoughts on this matter?

I also apologize ahead of time if there is a thread already about this and I missed it.

I don't think they sray into "OP" territory. From what I've seen Necrons are very strong, but not unplayably strong. So go ahead and enjoy having a strong Codex, GW will nurf bash it soon enough.

pinecone77 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
So, going over the codex again and again, and talking with some friends of mine, I've realized that Necrons, while very well balanced internally, are crazy powerful compared to how they used to be. I've sat down and thought of all the issues I've had fighting against other armies, and no armies out there (save for an entire Imperial Knight army) really threatens me anymore. Necrons see to have an answer for everything, since all of their units are viable now. HQs aren't quite as killy, but more supportive, and arguable harder to kill. Troops are tough as nails. Elites are cheaper and everything has a viable use. Heavy Supports are worth it now. Fast Attack are still good, and even more became good. And the Decurion Detachment is ridiculous. Sure, I personally feel it gives the book it's own flavor, and is very fluffy in itself, but the benefits seem to be too good, when you think about it.

Necrons very well could be the next Eldar in terms of power level, though without a lot of cheese. I don't wanna become "that guy" that nobody wants to play because Necrons are too good.

Do you guys think the power level is in a good spot? Or is it too much to handle compared to other 7th edition codexes? And if it is too much, what can we expect to see from other 7th edition codexes when they start updating them. What are your guy's thoughts on this matter?

I also apologize ahead of time if there is a thread already about this and I missed it.

I don't think they sray into "OP" territory. From what I've seen Necrons are very strong, but not unplayably strong. So go ahead and enjoy having a strong Codex, GW will nurf bash it soon enough.

Well, that's what they did. Everyone complained about the Necron cheese, and GW nerfed it.

 krodarklorr wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
So, going over the codex again and again, and talking with some friends of mine, I've realized that Necrons, while very well balanced internally, are crazy powerful compared to how they used to be. I've sat down and thought of all the issues I've had fighting against other armies, and no armies out there (save for an entire Imperial Knight army) really threatens me anymore. Necrons see to have an answer for everything, since all of their units are viable now. HQs aren't quite as killy, but more supportive, and arguable harder to kill. Troops are tough as nails. Elites are cheaper and everything has a viable use. Heavy Supports are worth it now. Fast Attack are still good, and even more became good. And the Decurion Detachment is ridiculous. Sure, I personally feel it gives the book it's own flavor, and is very fluffy in itself, but the benefits seem to be too good, when you think about it.

Necrons very well could be the next Eldar in terms of power level, though without a lot of cheese. I don't wanna become "that guy" that nobody wants to play because Necrons are too good.

Do you guys think the power level is in a good spot? Or is it too much to handle compared to other 7th edition codexes? And if it is too much, what can we expect to see from other 7th edition codexes when they start updating them. What are your guy's thoughts on this matter?

I also apologize ahead of time if there is a thread already about this and I missed it.

I don't think they sray into "OP" territory. From what I've seen Necrons are very strong, but not unplayably strong. So go ahead and enjoy having a strong Codex, GW will nurf bash it soon enough.

Well, that's what they did. Everyone complained about the Necron cheese, and GW nerfed it.

They nerfed what needed to be nerfed, but the army still stands as one of the strongest out there right now. While the army might not be the kind to table armies, it certainly stands to reason it will take CONSIDERABLE power to table YOU. Necrons are stupid durable, and even their basic infantry can threaten any threat the game can possibly throw at you (Except, perhaps, invisi star units or something).

Mind Shackling was stupid strong. Way too strong.

Command Barges were silly, but are now more in line. As are Ani-Barges.

Tesla on a whole wasn't THAT bad, I never had an issue facing it to be honest. But they did go a little overboard with that one. I'll give you that.

The amount of formations/buffs your army can get makes me a bit GREEN with envy. (Pun much intended) The Necrons will likely have to play the Objective game now and not just the pew pew game.

Old Tesla predated snap-fire and Fliers so it made sense that those would have gotten changed to not be so good (like Arcing to hit Fliers).

Melevolence wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
So, going over the codex again and again, and talking with some friends of mine, I've realized that Necrons, while very well balanced internally, are crazy powerful compared to how they used to be. I've sat down and thought of all the issues I've had fighting against other armies, and no armies out there (save for an entire Imperial Knight army) really threatens me anymore. Necrons see to have an answer for everything, since all of their units are viable now. HQs aren't quite as killy, but more supportive, and arguable harder to kill. Troops are tough as nails. Elites are cheaper and everything has a viable use. Heavy Supports are worth it now. Fast Attack are still good, and even more became good. And the Decurion Detachment is ridiculous. Sure, I personally feel it gives the book it's own flavor, and is very fluffy in itself, but the benefits seem to be too good, when you think about it.

Necrons very well could be the next Eldar in terms of power level, though without a lot of cheese. I don't wanna become "that guy" that nobody wants to play because Necrons are too good.

Do you guys think the power level is in a good spot? Or is it too much to handle compared to other 7th edition codexes? And if it is too much, what can we expect to see from other 7th edition codexes when they start updating them. What are your guy's thoughts on this matter?

I also apologize ahead of time if there is a thread already about this and I missed it.

I don't think they sray into "OP" territory. From what I've seen Necrons are very strong, but not unplayably strong. So go ahead and enjoy having a strong Codex, GW will nurf bash it soon enough.

Well, that's what they did. Everyone complained about the Necron cheese, and GW nerfed it.

They nerfed what needed to be nerfed, but the army still stands as one of the strongest out there right now. While the army might not be the kind to table armies, it certainly stands to reason it will take CONSIDERABLE power to table YOU. Necrons are stupid durable, and even their basic infantry can threaten any threat the game can possibly throw at you (Except, perhaps, invisi star units or something).

Mind Shackling was stupid strong. Way too strong.

Command Barges were silly, but are now more in line. As are Ani-Barges.

Tesla on a whole wasn't THAT bad, I never had an issue facing it to be honest. But they did go a little overboard with that one. I'll give you that.

The amount of formations/buffs your army can get makes me a bit GREEN with envy. (Pun much intended) The Necrons will likely have to play the Objective game now and not just the pew pew game.

Well I'm not arguing Necrons aren't stupid powerful right now, I just feel what "needed" the nerf received it, and everything else is now very well balanced both internally and against other books. But yeah, they are extremely resilient, which is their biggest strength now.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Well I'm not arguing Necrons aren't stupid powerful right now, I just feel what "needed" the nerf received it, and everything else is now very well balanced both internally and against other books. But yeah, they are extremely resilient, which is their biggest strength now.

We'll have to agree to disagree about them being stupid powerful, but I agree with everything else.

misread

Did LVO have some tournament rule that the Decurion counted as the full 2 detachments/sources limit or something?

The Decurion is one detachment, and if the warlord is from within it's the primary one. It's got a different force organisation chart to the usual (core, auxiliary, command), and instead consists of mostly formations, but also individual units. A Decurion with for example Reclamation Legion, 2 Canoptek Harvests and a Destroyer Cult would still be just a single detachment, and if the player wanted, he could ally with a CAD from Codex: Necrons, or any other Codex he wished, and still satisfy the 2 Detachments rule.

So where's the "They weren't allowed to unleash the full power of the Decurion" coming from?

Haha! played my first game with necrons today. Fun.

I played with 60 necron Warriors, 10 Immortals, 2 Monoliths, an Obelisk, 8 Flayed Ones and 3 Crypteks. Made use of the Living Tomb and the Mephrit Resurgance Formation. Good times.

Took on a Blood angels army. He seized and blew a Monolith up. Third time he's seized in three games. Lol.

Other than the Monolith I didn't lose anything else til turn 5 when the Obelik finally gave up the ghost and blew up. Quite resilient force.

Key take away was that melee is the way to beat the Necrons I used, not Dakka. I'm thinking he will bring more bodies and less armor in the future.

Like i said a few pages back: attack the leadership if you can.

 Jancoran wrote:
Like i said a few pages back: attack the leadership if you can.

That makes me think of running a Slaanesh army. Oh that could be hilarious.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Like i said a few pages back: attack the leadership if you can.

That makes me think of running a Slaanesh army. Oh that could be hilarious.

Word. There's also the Haemonculus Coven Formations, each separate formation adding a -1 to LD (I've played that army a lot lately). Normal Dark Eldar can nerf it as well.

Infiltrating units will do well so the Strategic Warlord Traits might be good ones to use.

Instant Death weapons in general are pretty unwelcome so STR 8 Templates might have been good against me, if he had any.

But I will say that the deathless nature of the Necrons can be well emulated o nthe table top. Best weapon against them is sweeping advances.

 Jancoran wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Like i said a few pages back: attack the leadership if you can.

That makes me think of running a Slaanesh army. Oh that could be hilarious.

Word. There's also the Haemonculus Coven Formations, each separate formation adding a -1 to LD (I've played that army a lot lately). Normal Dark Eldar can nerf it as well.

Infiltrating units will do well so the Strategic Warlord Traits might be good ones to use.

Instant Death weapons in general are pretty unwelcome so STR 8 Templates might have been good against me, if he had any.

But I will say that the deathless nature of the Necrons can be well emulated o nthe table top. Best weapon against them is sweeping advances.

Also Legion of the Damned who likes to mess with your leadership, and then benefit from it.

It's a direct nerf to Necrons by tournament organizers to not allow the use o the Decurion Detachment. Out of all of the Detachments every single army has, that's the only single one that is not allowed which is kind of bs.

Just wanted to note, that while I wasn't at the LVO, I do listen to their bi-weekly podcast. On one of the recent episodes they outlined that the Decurion, in its entirety, was just one detachment. Meaning that you could take Decurion(Reclamation Legion) + Decurion(Canoptek Harvest)+Allied CAD/Formation/ etc.

Also of note is that they mentioned that they follow the, admittedly ambiguous, ruling that Wraiths strike at initiative after charging through cover.

Again, even as a Necron player myself, I agree that one tournament doesn't make up for proper testing, there was nothing at the LVO-proper that would hold the Necron back.

Welcome to Dakka Gingir !!

Thank you for that tid bit bout the Decurion. More than a few of us were wondering how that was handled.

Just had my third game with the new codex tonight after not playing for a few weeks. Tried out some Lychguard with a melee Overlord, a Monolith, and the Canoptek formation, as well as your typical reclamation and royal court formations. My friend used Farsight Enclaves Tau, very heavy on battle suits. After almost 3 turns of shooting into the wraiths, he killed 5 out of 6 of them. He killed my spyder by turn 4, but barely put a dent into anything else I had. Heck, my 20 man blob of warriors with the royal court in it sat on an objective most of the game and didn't shoot at anything. I think he maybe killed 3 lychguard after firing his whole army into them turn 5, and one immortal. Oh, and a scarab. It was a close game for the first while as far as objectives goes (I finally got to try my Necron TacOs), but ended up an epic tabling with Warlord Vs. Warlord, and the score was 10-3 anyway.

So, now I'm 3-0 with crons, and can definitely say that, at least in my friend group of casual players, crons are pretty tough.

I got my second game in with Necrons. I had first turn. We played Purge the Alien, Hammer and Anvil.

I deployed a single 10 man Necron Unit with its Cryptek on the board. He deployed everything except his Deep Striking Death Wings (3 of them). I knew they could come in turn one so I decided to play it safe and make sure that I'd get to see where he was coming in before bringing my stuff in and obviously getting the shot off before he could assault would be wise.

i also had the Warlord Trait to manipulate my reserves so i was in really good shape.

And. then... He seized the initiative... And so this is what it looked like turn two...

Rolling perfect six's on their Move move move orders of course in the back there.



DeathWing Incoming Turn one which means in turn two, where this pic is taken, they will be charging... All one could do is retreat and hope!



Those bikes you see? Yeah those are his Black Knights who just outflanked on me at the top of his second round. Soooo....



To make things more fun...

In my turn two, the Obelisk mishap'd, while my second Monolith did also, so he planted the Monlith in my deployment zone of course and then the Obelisk had to go into ongoing reserve. More good news? For my bottom on 2, I shot him 70 times plus nine Staff of Light shots, plus the Monolith fired and killed one Terminator. The only good news was that the Monolith i dropped in his backfield blasted a Wyvern and the Immortals who emerged finished the second one. Still. Tough sledding.

On turn three He annihilated the Monolith he so conveniently placed near his terminators in my Deployment zone, which was the main thing I had to hurt his bikes there. Yup.

Despite, shall we say, the adversity I was able to claw my way back and win 7-6. My MVP's were the Flayed Ones and the obelisk. Despite its delay'd arrival it really did do work once it was on the board (killed a Chimera, a Platoon Commnd and finished the Black Knights). The Flayed ones tilted the melee against the 4+ invul guardsman in my direction round after round.

So, you got very unlucky and, arguably, outplayed and still won.

 koooaei wrote:
So, you got very unlucky and, arguably, outplayed and still won.

Very arguably.

Bad luck isn't getting outplayed. fighting your way back definitely isn't.

That being said, the fun factor here was very high. There's nothing more fun than a come back.

 adamsouza wrote:


I'll be happy to revisit this conversation, 3 months from now, after we get more tournament results because I'm confident that Necrons still won't be dominating the tournament scene.

Agree totally.

I like the book because I can field allot of different units and still feel like I have a chance to win in a "normal" game, the internal balance is amazing. But against power lists? whole different story..

Yes. The greatness, the "thank you GW I want to kiss you" part of the codex is that now I can play an army that is fluffy against one of the BS min-max builds, which are an abomination in the face of god and man, and possibly win.

Death to min-Warrior Night Scythe spam!
Death to Deathmarks and Despair Crypteks!
Death to "Stop Hitting Yourself" Mind-Schackle Scarabs!
Death to Quadruple-Haywire Teleporting Crypteks!
Death to Invisible Centstars!
Death to Buffmanders!
Death to Belakor/Invisibility in every list!

It is this stuff that makes we want to just keep my models on the shelf and not play the game. The Decurion makes a fluffy army viable, and thank you GW for that.

 Jancoran wrote:

That being said, the fun factor here was very high. There's nothing more fun than a come back.

Agreed And who does the comeback better than terminator-crons?

But... but... it was all the fault of 6th edition cheese that was ment to be thrown away into history bin by the new shiny, toned down, balanced 7th edition codieces. Well necrons just shat at the idea and we're back to the good old huge gaps between tiers. I only hope that at least eldar and tau books will be crap because it's pretty embarrasing for 40k universe to be dominated by those two factions imnho. Necrons despite robots riding robots silliness that newcrons brought are still infinitely better suited to be a menace than ponytail elves, the taudar dominance was really spoiling the mood for me.

I am not sure I buy the idea of crons being stronger. More units definately are viable but a lot of the broken stuff got toned down a fair bit.

We are more durable for sure, but at the same time we are less hurty and our anti air took a hit. Sadly I think we became even more frustrating to play against. I have to play more games before I can make up my mind regarding power level though, but my hunch is that we got slightly weaker at the high end.

They are stronger than orkz for sure.

well that depends o nthe orks build I guess. As with essentially every comparison ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

That being said, the fun factor here was very high. There's nothing more fun than a come back.

Agreed And who does the comeback better than terminator-crons?

Oh the irony.

Following that line of thinking, you can say dark angels are not exactly weaker than eldar because some DA build can beat some eldar build. Obviously I mean on average, or top list vs top list, medium vs medium, fluffy vs fluffy etc or sth like that, I value my life to much to get into defining external codex comparision methods now.

I still say that necrons at least ruin the idea of 7th edition codieces being balanced vs each other, and as a result we get books that are both bland and externaly unbalanced. Joy.

I think you're painting this really broad brushstroke about codex's.

The reality is that the ork lists can be built to compete. That someone had certain models and that OTHER models are now preferable may even be true. But if you're willing to stay mentally agile and try new things, there's no reason that any codex should turn into an auto-loss in your mind.

There's one build in all of 40K that I fear above all others. And while it too can be taken down by CERTAIN builds, it comes the closest to being "too much". and thats one build in one codex.

I do not place necrons in this same category.

Look at whose winning tournaments. Tyranids are making a shockingly good case, while Eldar continue to do well, but smattered all over the top 25% are a bunch of codex's.

It is the General that matters the most. Not his list. Certainly not his CODEX. that's just too broad a brushstroak for me.

It's more like there's a good half of the codices where the general matters.

And then there's the sad half of the codices that can, at best, be cherry picked for little ally or supporting detachments to go with the good ones.

Believe me, when you get a match between one of the "have" codices and one of the "have-nots," the general starts to matter a LOT less. I regularly switch off and play with some of my friends' necrons, tyranids, and tau, and it's like I'm playing the game on a lower difficulty setting.

If, at the time of this post, you only have BA models, the LVO win %'s would suggest that being near the top of a big tourney is an almost impossibility. (In case you haven't seen it, they have the lowest of all the armies at a startlingly low 30%)

niv-mizzet wrote:
It's more like there's a good half of the codices where the general matters.

And then there's the sad half of the codices that can, at best, be cherry picked for little ally or supporting detachments to go with the good ones.

Believe me, when you get a match between one of the "have" codices and one of the "have-nots," the general starts to matter a LOT less. I regularly switch off and play with some of my friends' necrons, tyranids, and tau, and it's like I'm playing the game on a lower difficulty setting.

If, at the time of this post, you only have BA models, the LVO win %'s would suggest that being near the top of a big tourney is an almost impossibility. (In case you haven't seen it, they have the lowest of all the armies at a startlingly low 30%)

I didn't really follow this line of reasoning. Are you suggesting that if you're good at 40K, you cannot play certain units successfully against stiff competition? If that's what you're suggesting...

The codex isn't playing you is it? The list is and more specifically the General. Unless you show me how that ceases to be true, I am sorry. I just don't understand how your conclusion is that the codex can play itself on ANY mode. I've run people to ground with Rough Riders. The "lesser" units are so often considered that way just because no ones ever had the patience to try and build around them and certainly not committed to a lot of practice time with it.

Now i play a lot. Like, a lot. 3 games a week is very normal and almost never less than two. This week I have 5 scheduled. So I do not feel like my time is wasted testing new things out. Maybe people with less time to game gravitate to sure things, and dont have the time to practice. thats not an indictment of a Codex or unit. Thats just a function of time.

Agree Jancoran, if people were able to play more they could experiment with different unit's and understand they can win with there codex (against good opposition) with units the inter webs deemed #shamefull

It's hard to find 5 games a week! I need to move where you live!!

Also Tyrainds are easy mode? removing the one list where you take 47 Flyrants how are Tyranids as a Codex easy mode?

Plumbumbarum wrote:
They are stronger than orkz for sure.

That is because the Orks role in 40K is to provide an army with massive amounts of customized models possibilities that are target practice for other armies.

They've even cleverly brain washed the ork players to accept it with the fluff.

ORKS NEVER LOSE
IF THEY WIN, THEY WIN.
IF THEY RUN AWAY, THEY GET TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY
IF THEY ALL DIE, IT DON'T COUNT.

Orks haven't been good since they went BS2 back in 3rd Edition.

bodazoka wrote:
Agree Jancoran, if people were able to play more they could experiment with different unit's and understand they can win with there codex (against good opposition) with units the inter webs deemed #shamefull

It's hard to find 5 games a week! I need to move where you live!!

Also Tyrainds are easy mode? removing the one list where you take 47 Flyrants how are Tyranids as a Codex easy mode?

Tyranids aren't easy mode. They got a lot more impressive with the allowance of the Pods and so on. I personally don't really like the Tyranid aesthetic as much and it's one of three armies i don't own. but I have played against them plenty and it's good. Can be played a fair number of ways also.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 adamsouza wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
They are stronger than orkz for sure.

That is because the Orks role in 40K is to provide an army with massive amounts of customized models possibilities that are target practice for other armies.

They've even cleverly brain washed the ork players to accept it with the fluff.

ORKS NEVER LOSE
IF THEY WIN, THEY WIN.
IF THEY RUN AWAY, THEY GET TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY
IF THEY ALL DIE, IT DON'T COUNT.

Orks haven't been good since they went BS2 back in 3rd Edition.

if their BS is being tested to any great degree, I'm pretty sure you're playing them wrong. Lol. since when is an Orks BS coming up often enough to truly matter? Hehehe.

 Jancoran wrote:

if their BS is being tested to any great degree, I'm pretty sure you're playing them wrong. Lol. since when is an Orks BS not coming up often enough to truly matter? Hehehe.

FTFY

Certainly necrons are not the beast I initially thought they would be when I first saw the rumors (that came to be true) ages ago.
Now that I've seen the codex in action, I know they aren't as strong as I initially thought (something my gut was telling me when I got and read the codex a few days after release).

They are certainly durable, and the decurion is the best codex-detachment so far, however they also lost a lot of their points-efficient shooting and other things.

Wraithwing got buffed by the Harvest, but lost Warscythe/MSS DLord support and so are way less of an offensive threat, they're just an super-duper awesome defensive unit (too good of one, though).

Haywire-Tek bombs and Doom and Despair squads are now a thing of the past, and so our reliable AT is gone, and replaced with the less-reliable-but-not-bad gauss-spam

Our Str 7 spam is more expensive and not as tough (as jinking is no longer a no-brainer)

And 'Command' Barges now actually Command stuff, not being a crazy-tanking DISRUPTION CARNIFEX (seriously, that build wasn't good it cost too many points for what it did)

However, everything else is now viable, so certain builds are greatly improved, others wrecked and a smaller number have been slightly improved.

I think this codex is above the level of the 7th Ed codexes, but not by as much as many keep claiming they are.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:


I think this codex is above the level of the 7th Ed codexes, but not by as much as many keep claiming they are.

I can agree with that...

Saw this and it made me think of the first few pages of this thread

I'm glad the opinion of the book has calmed down. The anger was getting a bit much.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'm glad the opinion of the book has calmed down. The anger was getting a bit much.

Isn't that how it is at least a little for most all codexes?

Though I agree the Necron codex "whining" has turned to the rational side quicker than I expected.

It didnt change , everyone just got tired of arguing with two people.

 BlackArmour wrote:
It didnt change , everyone just got tired of arguing with two people.

I don't recall "everyone" being on either side of this.