A few thoughts come to mind for soaking overwatch.
1) Skyweaver jetbikes. Fire the mirage launcher and assault, T4, 2W, 4++ and you're not likely to lose a model.
2) Wyches. Do you care if you lose a cheap Wych to overwatch? Nope. And you may be able to position your assault so that your opponent has to direct some attacks at the 4++ Wyches which is a win for us.
3) Reavers. Nuff' said.
4) A unit of Khymera. They're T4, fast as heck, don't need cover, and are underpriced at just 10 points. Agonizers go pretty well on Beastmasters as well, as they're no longer characters and can't get challenged. I like to throw in a Razorwing flock for the lucky rending chance, plus it's funny to watch them peck the eyes out of space marines.
5) Two Clawed fiends and a Beastmaster. Or just one solo Fiend.
mercury14 wrote: A few thoughts come to mind for soaking overwatch.
1) Skyweaver jetbikes. Fire the mirage launcher and assault, T4, 2W, 4++ and you're not likely to lose a model.
2) Wyches. Do you care if you lose a cheap Wych to overwatch? Nope. And you may be able to position your assault so that your opponent has to direct some attacks at the 4++ Wyches which is a win for us.
3) Reavers. Nuff' said.
4) A unit of Khymera. They're T4, fast as heck, don't need cover, and are underpriced at just 10 points. Agonizers go pretty well on Beastmasters as well, as they're no longer characters and can't get challenged. I like to throw in a Razorwing flock for the lucky rending chance, plus it's funny to watch them peck the eyes out of space marines.
5) Two Clawed fiends and a Beastmaster. Or just one solo Fiend.
Couldn't agree more, I really like the mirage launching trick, i hadn't thought of its potential in an offensive manner, i assume its only against shooting attacks, thus only in effect for overwatch?
I think beast packs are looking like great units, just not for uses as per with baron as it used to be. Multiple small herding packs that can close movement paths off and also work as overwatch fodder, They have the 40 mm bases, so with 3 you can block a 7inch stretch for 30 points. Combined with RSR and 6 fa, easy to squeeze some in where you have given a reasonable chunk of points to harles and are supplimenting with DE
Beast packs are seriously under-rated. In my friendly game last week I ran two of them vs a list of GK terminators (two 10x squads of them) and 2x Dreadknights, a shooty dread, other things, with this 1850 list :
Succubus, Archite Glaive, Armor of Misery, went with Bloodbrides
Combat Drugs: +1WS
(disclaimer, yes I know it's a weird list but it worked spectacularly)
...
I kicked the stuffing out of the GK player, winning 8-1. He even had two librarians with invisibility each in a termi squad and I still won big. The moment he would fail invisibility with one of those termi units I was always mobile enough to jump on it with a silly amount of attention and force his GK termis to attack things with invuln. I was forcing his termis to overwatch Mandrakes in cover (lol).
Getting back to Harlequins, I think the same strategy would work. Stay mobile and make jinking Reavers and Khymera soak overwatch and then profit.
Sounds amazing, id love for you to elaborate on your DE list over in the DE tactica thread or something, dont want to clog this thread. Yeh the harlies can replace some of your bloodbrides i suppose, maybe even mandrakes too, i imagine the hellions and a reaver unit could be dropped. Then begin to add in your troupe's and play a heavily aggressive assault based army You'd be fully mobile all the time still and be able to use the harlies as the punch while you dictate the flow with your FA units.
Solar Shock wrote: Sounds amazing, id love for you to elaborate on your DE list over in the DE tactica thread or something, dont want to clog this thread. Yeh the harlies can replace some of your bloodbrides i suppose, maybe even mandrakes too, i imagine the hellions and a reaver unit could be dropped. Then begin to add in your troupe's and play a heavily aggressive assault based army You'd be fully mobile all the time still and be able to use the harlies as the punch while you dictate the flow with your FA units.
Hellions are awful.... But I painted up ten of them right before the new codex dropped in anticipation of them being buffed and ended up with egg on my face. I don't recommend them as units that can soak overwatch because at 13 pts they're too expensive for that. In my match they lost four of their number to shooting on turn one... Then flew under the radar the rest of the match because they weren't worth attacking, ended up putting a wound on a Dreadknight, and took an objective. Looks good on paper but they only accomplished that much because they're so bad they aren't worth your opponents' attention, especially when under 5 models.
In a list with Harlequins I think their only use would be deep-striking and shooting with their assault 2 poison guns at high-toughness targets.
mercury14 wrote: A few thoughts come to mind for soaking overwatch.
1) Skyweaver jetbikes. Fire the mirage launcher and assault, T4, 2W, 4++ and you're not likely to lose a model.
2) Wyches. Do you care if you lose a cheap Wych to overwatch? Nope. And you may be able to position your assault so that your opponent has to direct some attacks at the 4++ Wyches which is a win for us.
3) Reavers. Nuff' said.
4) A unit of Khymera. They're T4, fast as heck, don't need cover, and are underpriced at just 10 points. Agonizers go pretty well on Beastmasters as well, as they're no longer characters and can't get challenged. I like to throw in a Razorwing flock for the lucky rending chance, plus it's funny to watch them peck the eyes out of space marines.
5) Two Clawed fiends and a Beastmaster. Or just one solo Fiend.
*cough cough, bump*
I'm very underwhelmed by skyweavers. The haywire being blast in combo with the lack of grenades is just a deal breaker. And 50ppm for a wound sponge is excessive. You could get 2 harliquins with kisses for that price and still have 10 points left over, and so would accomplish more or less the same thing cheaper.
Wyches are great, and actually would go well with Harlies due to being put way down on the priority list in the shooting phase (Harlies are cost more and are scarier). But I'd go warriors for your troops just to cover the lack of ranged shooting in a Harlie detachment. A squad of wyches could be nice, but you don't need more things in CC as much as the shooting.
Beasts are pretty phenominal, this is where the gold is. 10ppm wound soaks? Yes and yes. Alternately, go minimalist on the Harlie side of things in order to unlock shadowseers and run ye-old-beastars of 6th. Veil + HnR keeping these bad boys safe from virtually eveyrhting but overwatch could be amazing. Maybe a DJ or 2 to make that charge easier in case your opponent is trying to back away. As long as you have good air coverage (lolflyrants) it'd make for a decent pressure army.
Hollismason wrote: You could make up for the lack of shooting by just taking 5 man Wyches in Venoms, not to terrible.
Could do the same thing w/warriors in venoms cheaper and get 5-10 free shots more. Again, if there's any place wyches work it's in a Harlie list where they go way down on the priority list. But you're bringing more light CC into a list that is made for light CC, there just isn't much synergy. Against most opponents who rely on a heavy ground presence that'll be fine, but if your goal is a TAC list it isn't diversifying your threat range at all. In the current meta, you really do need to plan for FMC's or risk having to play hide and pray for an entire game.
Okay guys, help me out. The local GW is having an escalation league starting up soon, first round is 500 points, and you have to keep whatever you buy in the next round. It goes up in 250 point increments.
I would like to take the Harlequins out for a spin, but 500 points is a very awkward point level for Harlies. Assuming I can reorganize things into different detachments in later rounds, how would you do this? I have CWE as well.
My initial thought is to start with the Cast of Players, but the minimum investment for that is 215 points (and then I need gear, so it will go higher, minimum to my mind would be 25 points for Kisses/Embraces). Heroes Path is another alternative at 245. Both will greatly restrict what else I can bring in the first round due to the large investment in the formations. Any ideas?
I reckon take a support vehicle (for me thqats a fire prism) and spend the rest on a troupe with support.
Change out whatever support you prefer. Make sure the support can reduce enemies, survive and help with long range vehicle fire power would be my guess.
Then spend the rest on a mega troupe. Depending on your warlord traits and powers you can try make good use of them.
That would be my advice. But you could also swap out a support unit for jetbikes (eldar) and try play for objectives.
Asmodas wrote: Okay guys, help me out. The local GW is having an escalation league starting up soon, first round is 500 points, and you have to keep whatever you buy in the next round. It goes up in 250 point increments.
I would like to take the Harlequins out for a spin, but 500 points is a very awkward point level for Harlies. Assuming I can reorganize things into different detachments in later rounds, how would you do this? I have CWE as well.
My initial thought is to start with the Cast of Players, but the minimum investment for that is 215 points (and then I need gear, so it will go higher, minimum to my mind would be 25 points for Kisses/Embraces). Heroes Path is another alternative at 245. Both will greatly restrict what else I can bring in the first round due to the large investment in the formations. Any ideas?
So, do you ahve to keep the models or the exact loadout? Cause Cast of players could be traded in for a DJ/Shadowseer and squad later on. Also, at 500 points you could just do one massive Deathstar blob of Cast. If you have to keep the "squad" but not necessarily all the people in it, scale it back later.
Unbound available? It's GW so I'm guessing that's an option.
Need to have exact rules on what's allowed, exactly what are you carrying forward (formations, or models? Squad slot or Squad size?) As you are required to go forward with what you take, you are definitely right in being deliberate at this stage. Harlies already don't have a ton of flexibility, a bad choice here could hamstring you the rest of the league.
Edit- re-read the post. Looks like you could take cast now and use the squad as a troupe in the detachment later? If so, at this low point range I'd just do a Deathstar Cast. Honestly, outside of the IC formation you can't bring anything else that won't require you to bring skyweavers later. And as you say, cast starts at 215, but you'll spend an easy 65 more points in upgrades (kisses, ML2 SS, mask on SS). leaving you ~120 for allies. You actually can't field anything that way but a barebones autarch and a 3 man JB squad.
As long as you can either A) pair down the squad later to a 5-6 man troupe or B) Keep the same number but split them into squads, I'd just run one large Cast of Players squad. 12 w/Kisses, TM w/haywire+DJ w/haywire +SS w/mask, ML2 + Starweaver = 500 on the nose. Will give you some practice muliti-assaulting and playing safe with Veil.
Bonus: You're games will be quick. No shooting until you charge, then either you or your opponent will be tabled.
I'll be going in tomorrow to pick up the Codex, so I'll get the rest of the rules for the league then. I'll fill you guys in once I know, but my guess is that I'll have to keep whatever I pick, but can organize it however I want it in later rounds (so the super-troupers (ABBA reference FTW) will probably have to stick around, but could become part of a masque instead of a formation in later rounds. We'll see, because, as you guys alluded to, exact rules on how this works will make a big difference.
If it's too restrictive, I'll just bring my Nids. Flyrant with 2x Devourers and just about anything will work at 500 points.
Honestly, keep running cast of players. They give crusader to anyone within 6" so anyone footslogging down field will be able to run a rediculous distance. Then, from turn 2 on they can charge afterwards. 2d6, rerollable from fleet, gives you a real decent chance of getting a 5-6. Then, if you're fighting init 4+, you get the additional d3 to sweep. Positioned correctly, this unit can win you combats just for being nearby.
Asmodas wrote: If it's too restrictive, I'll just bring my Nids. Flyrant with 2x Devourers and just about anything will work at 500 points.
And then every 250 points you could just grab another flyrant and keep dominating the league. I really wish nids required more planning than that. But you can't blame people for spamming the best unit in an otherwise bland codex if GW makes it an option.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:Honestly, keep running cast of players. They give crusader to anyone within 6" so anyone footslogging down field will be able to run a rediculous distance. Then, from turn 2 on they can charge afterwards. 2d6, rerollable from fleet, gives you a real decent chance of getting a 5-6. Then, if you're fighting init 4+, you get the additional d3 to sweep. Positioned correctly, this unit can win you combats just for being nearby.
Since I'm still waiting on my codex......Does cast of players get run/charge as well? I know they get crusader, and I'm strongly considering running a Guardian blob/Cast list in an upcoming monthly tourny. If they get run/charge as well that'll just be gravy. I think crusader + Fleet + Charge is going to catch a lot of people off guard with just how freakin quick they make it across the board. A lot like Warp Spiders actually, which will also be in the list. Essentially crusader should give them the same threat range as a non-blitzing Solitaire.
Goobi2 wrote: Crusader doesnt give 2d6 run moves. It gives 2d6 take the highest. So you still max out at 6" (7"with a particular warlord trait).
Not sure anyone was saying it did.
Lythrandire Bihrellian wrote: Then, from turn 2 on they can charge afterwards. 2d6, rerollable from fleet, gives you a real decent chance of getting A 5-6.
Emphasis mine.
We're more remarking that the combo of ignoring terrain, and reliably getting a 5+ on your run roll essentially makes them a beast unit. If they do indeed get run charge, this formation is a rock solid choice.
Cast of players does not get rising crescendo unfortunately so no crusader plus run then charge for that unit. Adding the cast of players to a masque is viable though as the crusader rule from the cast is a bubble effect
RESTRICTIONS:
All models in this Formation must be deployed as a single unit. The Formation’s Shadowseer and Death Jester cannot leave the Formation’s Troupe.
SPECIAL RULES:
• Crusader
Heralds of the Laughing God: Any models with the Eldar or Dark Eldar Faction (friend or foe) within 6" of one or more models from this Formation have the Crusader special rule.
Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex - Harlequins.” iBooks.
Massaen wrote: Cast of players does not get rising crescendo unfortunately so no crusader plus run then charge for that unit. Adding the cast of players to a masque is viable though as the crusader rule from the cast is a bubble effect
Was pretty sure they didn't. It really would make Cast of Players a bit OTT. As long as veil was in effect your opponent would almost never get to shoot prior to assault. 6" move, 5-6" run = 11-12" reliably before a 8-10" charge for a total of 20" threat range. Being as average site range on Veil is 14", Cast would be virtually untouchable. Throw in Invis, and it's maybe one of the best deathstars in the game.
Still though, crusader bubble has its uses. Wyche blobs, guardian blobs, grotesque blobs, wrack blobs etc. etc. I'm really interested to see how it works with a footdar type list, Guardians getting a reliable 24" threat range could be interesting.
Just wanted to share my experiences of using the 'Quins.
I've been using a 5 man troupe with a Shadowseer in a Starweaver and it's been pretty fun. I've found that they are still a premier assault unit, as when they make combat they usually win by the second phase or hit'n'run out, rarely losing many models. I've also found open-topped SUCKS! d6 hits on the guys inside is always expensive from every single blast is very bad for expensive t3 models. I'm wondering if it would not be better to leave them out of it? I usually loose 2 models from blasts, and i am very lucky with invulnerable saves. On that note, Get the Harlequin dice! I use them for every harlequin related roll and they are ridiculously lucky.
Finally, i know many people disagree but i stand by it, the Power Weapon for the Troupe Master. Reliable AP3 is useful, i have the speed to avoid 2+ saves and 5 Ws 6 Str 4 hits at initiative higher-then-you has been the end of every MEQ champion i have came across. I roll caress on the players, and seem to roll 6's like lightning, but in a challenge i find when i needed them, they didn't show.
I've been using a 5 man troupe with a Shadowseer in a Starweaver and it's been pretty fun. I've found that they are still a premier assault unit, as when they make combat they usually win by the second phase or hit'n'run out, rarely losing many models. I've also found open-topped SUCKS! d6 hits on the guys inside is always expensive from every single blast is very bad for expensive t3 models. I'm wondering if it would not be better to leave them out of it? I usually loose 2 models from blasts, and i am very lucky with invulnerable saves. On that note, Get the Harlequin dice! I use them for every harlequin related roll and they are ridiculously lucky.
Finally, i know many people disagree but i stand by it, the Power Weapon for the Troupe Master. Reliable AP3 is useful, i have the speed to avoid 2+ saves and 5 Ws 6 Str 4 hits at initiative higher-then-you has been the end of every MEQ champion i have came across. I roll caress on the players, and seem to roll 6's like lightning, but in a challenge i find when i needed them, they didn't show.
Alex.
No doubt Sword on the TM is the highest output option. It's just so expensive. At 10 points it'd be a done deal, but 15 is pushing it.
I'm interested in your experience with the shadowseers in the box, I wonder if you'd elaborate more. I keep seeing people talk about putting SS's with a troupe in a Starweaver, and I just wonder why? The starweaver is fast enough to get you a turn 2 charge, meaning you don't really need veil often, and he's not bringing much to the table otherwise (some people have mentioned concussion for sweeps, but are you really worried about your opponents Initiative as a Harlequin?). And, as you mentioned, they're as likely as not to die when your starweaver blows up/gets blasted/templated which another trouper would have done just as well. Would you say your experiences agree/disagree with those assumptions?
Given that bias, I'm pretty well sold on not sticking SS's in Starweavers. They (starweavers) don't offer enough protection to be worth it, and you're robbing yourself of opportunities to cast. Put em with troops on the ground to abuse veil as much as possible. Shadowseers are the gems of the codex, squeeze every ounce of utility out of them you can.
I would agree that they aren't being used to their full effectiveness when inside the Starweaver, as Veil is being wasted. But they are also not useless, when i managed to put Stealth + Shrouded on the Starweaver it survived an obnoxious amount of fire power. I also found the Shadowseer was surprisingly useful in combat, she helped massively against tyranid monstrous creatures when those 6's weren't enough. That being said, i think i will still run the Starweaver but will not run the Troupe inside it. I used to play a lot of Venoms, so i know what i am comparing it to, and those Duel Shurican Cannons are just pure gold.
I was thinking instead of the Power Weapon i could use Cegorarch's rose? It's the same points as the Power Weapon and is more likely to do that single wound then the Power Weapon. Which do you think makes the best challenge-centric troupe master?
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: I would agree that they aren't being used to their full effectiveness when inside the Starweaver, as Veil is being wasted. But they are also not useless, when i managed to put Stealth + Shrouded on the Starweaver it survived an obnoxious amount of fire power. I also found the Shadowseer was surprisingly useful in combat, she helped massively against tyranid monstrous creatures when those 6's weren't enough. That being said, i think i will still run the Starweaver but will not run the Troupe inside it. I used to play a lot of Venoms, so i know what i am comparing it to, and those Duel Shurican Cannons are just pure gold.
I was thinking instead of the Power Weapon i could use Cegorarch's rose? It's the same points as the Power Weapon and is more likely to do that single wound then the Power Weapon. Which do you think makes the best challenge-centric troupe master?
Agreed on Starweavers. Pound for pound better than a venom, and venoms are already pretty good. S6 and pseudo rend more than make up for lack of shots (I can't roll a 4 to wound to save my life). Mirage launchers are just gravy.
For a challenge-centric TM, I'd think starmist rainment + whateveweaponyouwant. For me, a challenge soak in Harlies is for absorbing high S, high WS attacks that will be the bane of your existence. At WS6, most things are going to hit you on a 4, add in a 3++ and there's not a ton of things you will be overly concerned about. You may not kill the challenged character, but if you prevent wounds form going on your troupes he's done his job. Troupers kill the rest of the squad, then in the next round it doesn't matter that the TMs lost his 3++: cause now your troupers are piling on their attacks as well. In this loadout, your TM could fairly reasonably survive a head to head with a SMCM w/shield eternal/TH. That's 250 points (artificer, bike) worth of beatstick you are very likely to see at some point, being checked by ~70 points worth of TM. Who cares if you kill him? Next round he's getting the full love and attention of the rest of your squad.
I've been using a 5 man troupe with a Shadowseer in a Starweaver and it's been pretty fun. I've found that they are still a premier assault unit, as when they make combat they usually win by the second phase or hit'n'run out, rarely losing many models. I've also found open-topped SUCKS! d6 hits on the guys inside is always expensive from every single blast is very bad for expensive t3 models. I'm wondering if it would not be better to leave them out of it? I usually loose 2 models from blasts, and i am very lucky with invulnerable saves. On that note, Get the Harlequin dice! I use them for every harlequin related roll and they are ridiculously lucky.
.
Blast weapons do not have the No Escape rule that Template weapons have. You shouldn't be allowing your opponents those hits.
The starweaver is better than the venom vs targets with lower armor saves, such as marines and terminators assuming they are out of cover. The venom is better at targets with higher toughness and higher armor saves. The venom is a better generalist vehicle that can easily fire at any non-vehicle target. However the starweaver can do some damage to vehicles. It will do an average of 2 hp to the rear armor of most vehicles which is nothing to sneeze at. Both are pretty good, but also fragile.
Lately I have been thinking that foot harlequins are the way to go. Veil of tears is just better defense than the starweaver and the harlequins themselves are extremely mobile. Those two starweavers you probably bought to fill up your fast attack slot can be given to your dark kin allies because they need something to ride around on. Plus the shadpw seer's gernades can help mitigate overwatch.
What do you all think of a troupe armed with caresses and a shadow seer armed with haywire gernades as anti-tank? The troupe will do about 3.5 hp alone and the shadowseer can do one in the shooting and one in the assault phase.
That unit is about 200 points - not exactly efficient as you still have to get it to the target. Sky weavers with haywire do that better with a long threat range. They are not efficient either - haywire DE scourges show this clearly! I could get nearly 8 haywire shots from them for the same cost!
I think the troupes need to be able to dump 3hp in 2 rounds of combat (kill a dread) bug otherwise find your primary AT elsewhere
lambsandlions wrote: The starweaver is better than the venom vs targets with lower armor saves, such as marines and terminators assuming they are out of cover. The venom is better at targets with higher toughness and higher armor saves. The venom is a better generalist vehicle that can easily fire at any non-vehicle target. However the starweaver can do some damage to vehicles. It will do an average of 2 hp to the rear armor of most vehicles which is nothing to sneeze at. Both are pretty good, but also fragile.
Lately I have been thinking that foot harlequins are the way to go. Veil of tears is just better defense than the starweaver and the harlequins themselves are extremely mobile. Those two starweavers you probably bought to fill up your fast attack slot can be given to your dark kin allies because they need something to ride around on. Plus the shadpw seer's gernades can help mitigate overwatch.
What do you all think of a troupe armed with caresses and a shadow seer armed with haywire gernades as anti-tank? The troupe will do about 3.5 hp alone and the shadowseer can do one in the shooting and one in the assault phase.
Pretty much what Massaen said. Haywire grenades are fine, because they're cheap so why not. Going with carresses with the thought of AT is a lot of points to do something inefficiently. Nothing in the Harlie codex really does AT well. Skyweavers w/haywire are 110 points. For 10 more points you can get scourges that have twice the shots, same range, and more wounds w/ same armor that can also get cover w/o snap shooting. In a codex that's as expensive as Harlies, you really can't be throwing away any points, and caresses just aren't good enough to justify a 60% price increase except on the solitaire where his # of attacks makes it likely you could get 2 attacks as opposed to a kisses guaranteed attack.
Or put another way: In the scenario you propose, if you trade out all the caresses for kisses and give the TM a haywire grendade instead, you do 2 HP from the TM throwing grendades in shooting/assault plus 4 other S6 attacks. Anything AV12 and down you're likely to do nearly as many HPs, but save yourself 10 points in doing so- nearly enough for another body.
As Footquins go, I agree. VoT > Starweaver as far as protection goes. However, you're already buying 2 Starweavers for your FA, and your points can get eaten up quick by Shadowseers. It's a balancing act as to whether you want more reliable protection for your Harlies, or more points for allies (which you need for AT/AA).
But that's nothing against Starweavers. I love em. I think you've flipped venoms and starweavers in your assesment. Venoms are focused on T value targets. Shuriken cannons can target anyone or thing. Personally I value the versatility more, especially in an army that's as skimpy on even light AT as the Harlie dex is.
Massaen wrote: That unit is about 200 points - not exactly efficient as you still have to get it to the target. Sky weavers with haywire do that better with a long threat range. They are not efficient either - haywire DE scourges show this clearly! I could get nearly 8 haywire shots from them for the same cost!
I think the troupes need to be able to dump 3hp in 2 rounds of combat (kill a dread) bug otherwise find your primary AT elsewhere
you are going to be taking the shadow seer and kisses On your troupe anyway, the real cost upgrade is 5 points for the gernade and 15points to upgrade to caresses. The unit is just as good taking out its normal targets but for 20 points it gets the added bonus of being able to deal with tanks.
I think Haywire grenades on everyone that can take them is cheap enough that it will do in a pinch, but I would never count on it.
I wonder if its worth it to put a Shadowseer with a 5 man troupe in a Skyweaver. Alternatively, you could put a Death Jester, or you could simply take a 6 man troupe. I do plan on running a unit on foot though, which needs a Shadowseer (or 2). The biggest question in my mind is what is the optimal configuration for 3 troupes for the masque detachment?
I am building mine for an event right now, 2x6 in star weavers (PS+HWG, 1 caress, 1 embrace, 3 kiss) then a big unit on foot with 2-3 shadow seer (again 2-3 caress, 2-3 embrace, rest kiss, storied sword and HWG).
So, the way of heroes is a beast! I have never seen a more efficient way to control enemy movement. The death jester is positioned near an edge, behind cover. That keeps the enemy away from that edges because they don't want to run off the side of the table. Solitaire on the other side, obviously nobody wants to get near him. That makes your opponent come into the middle, then the shadowseer is sitting about 8" into the center field, either buffing nearby units, or killing people with mind bullets. Don't put the mask on her however, the closer LD debuff is nice, but you waste the best part(the fearless)
I am so thoroughly enjoying this dex
Automatically Appended Next Post: As an aside, the top of the Harlequin codex says "codex eldar"
I'd take that to mean they gain the benefit of crusader, as well as the fearless bubble from the avatar of Khaine. Otherwise, the harlequins in said book would be able to gain those benefits, while the units in their own codex would not. Doesn't make sense for that to be the case, and I believe it to be intentional.
Mine says Codex Harlequins on the digital version. I need to get home to check the hardback...
As for the crusader rule...
The Harlequins have a specific faction as described in the codex - that faction is HARLEQUINS. Not eldar harlequins but just harlequins.
Under Cast of players - it says that models with the Eldar or Dark Eldar FACTION within 6"gain...
Harlequins from Codex Harlequins do not have the eldar or dark eldar faction - they have the Harlequin faction and are thus not able to be affected.
For the Avatar rule - again its very clear... The Actual rule says that all friendly units chosen from CODEX ELDAR within 12" are fearless. Picking units/formations from Codex harlequins are not friendly units from Codex Eldar.
Fair enough, but I'm going to ask if my group are cool with it. If I ally in eldar, and have the avatar and a harlequin troupe in that detachment, that troupe gains all the benefits while the troupe next to them does not. My codex is currently somewhere down south, trapped by a blizzard, so I was only going by the picture of the cover and what other people had said
As a house rule that's completely up to you and your group.
You are right that if you take harlequins from their entry in the eldar codex then yes they would benefit from the crusader and avatar while the codex harlequins would not. That said, the Eldar harlequin entry doesn't have grenades, nor most of the new rules, are typically worse in combat and cost more to boot!
As per RAW - its clear. If you and your group are ok with the change - go nuts!
Asmodas wrote: If it's too restrictive, I'll just bring my Nids. Flyrant with 2x Devourers and just about anything will work at 500 points.
And then every 250 points you could just grab another flyrant and keep dominating the league. I really wish nids required more planning than that. But you can't blame people for spamming the best unit in an otherwise bland codex if GW makes it an option.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:Honestly, keep running cast of players. They give crusader to anyone within 6" so anyone footslogging down field will be able to run a rediculous distance. Then, from turn 2 on they can charge afterwards. 2d6, rerollable from fleet, gives you a real decent chance of getting a 5-6. Then, if you're fighting init 4+, you get the additional d3 to sweep. Positioned correctly, this unit can win you combats just for being nearby.
Since I'm still waiting on my codex......Does cast of players get run/charge as well? I know they get crusader, and I'm strongly considering running a Guardian blob/Cast list in an upcoming monthly tourny. If they get run/charge as well that'll just be gravy. I think crusader + Fleet + Charge is going to catch a lot of people off guard with just how freakin quick they make it across the board. A lot like Warp Spiders actually, which will also be in the list. Essentially crusader should give them the same threat range as a non-blitzing Solitaire.
I don't typically spam Flyrants. I have one, and another one in a box that I haven't put together yet. I have a sort of "fluff" problem with Tyranid hordes made up only (or primarily) of the rarest creature in the entire Hive Fleet. Then again, I have a fluff problem with every Grey Knight list including Draigo, lol.
I found out the details on the league, and I can basically move things around however I want in between rounds - I can change loadouts, unit compositions, FOC/formations, etc. I just have to keep the same basic units (but can increase or decrease the number of models within the unit). So, that gives me a lot of options.
I think I'm going to try something a little unorthodox for the first round, though.
Cast of Players, i.e. 1 Troupe with SS and DJ
2x Harlequins kiss, all the rest with stock weapons
Faolchu's Blade is kind of meh, but with the Shuricannons I can at least jink and snap-shoot. The Skyweavers can also distract from the Troupe while being annoyingly durable with the re-rollable jink save. Then, the plan is to charge with jinking skyweavers to soak up overwatch for the Troupe. The Troupe is pretty weak, but with Veil and Crusader it should move pretty fast and still hit reasonably hard.
The real reason to take Faolchu's Blade is that it + 1 Troupe is easily converted into a full Masque Detachment at 750. 2 more Troupes is 190, leaving 60 points left over for either another Shadowseer or weapons upgrades for the Troupes.
Has anybody give though to using Faolchu's Blade but equipping their skyweavers for melee? A 4+ re-rollable cover save could go a long way to helping keeping them alive. Since you are trying to assault the loss of BS isn't a huge deal. 4 Str. 5 AP 2 attacks per bike isn't too shabby. Plus it might draw some fire away from the troupes.
MrFlutterPie wrote: Has anybody give though to using Faolchu's Blade but equipping their skyweavers for melee? A 4+ re-rollable cover save could go a long way to helping keeping them alive. Since you are trying to assault the loss of BS isn't a huge deal. 4 Str. 5 AP 2 attacks per bike isn't too shabby. Plus it might draw some fire away from the troupes.
I have not but will once I get the dex in hand (damn winter storm delying the dex after the damn dock workers strick, lol). Going back and forth between threads and down loads is a pain.
I know folks are down on the sky weavers due to its cost, armor, etc... and its a good thing my group is a casual group.
I feel that most units need to use their special rules to be successful in most cases.
After soakinig up OW with some wind riders I plan on assaulting, slice and dice, then hit and run in most cases with the bikes. Not sure if it will be vialble bu that is the plan. Using Faolchu's blade seems like a good choice with that strategy.
I dont plan on using the bolas at all. With a 12 inch range it is to much to risk to have it blow back onto the bike.
They do really well in assault in my experience. I send them against the more elite guys.
Last game they ate a unit of tomb blades with ease. They hit and run alongside my troupe against a some necron wraiths and their high S attacks made all the difference.
I found they were ok at their shooting role, but they arent shabby on the charge either. Still not great for their price but dont be afraid to charge a unit they shot to bits.
MrFlutterPie wrote: Has anybody give though to using Faolchu's Blade but equipping their skyweavers for melee? A 4+ re-rollable cover save could go a long way to helping keeping them alive. Since you are trying to assault the loss of BS isn't a huge deal. 4 Str. 5 AP 2 attacks per bike isn't too shabby. Plus it might draw some fire away from the troupes.
I have not but will once I get the dex in hand (damn winter storm delying the dex after the damn dock workers strick, lol). Going back and forth between threads and down loads is a pain.
I know folks are down on the sky weavers due to its cost, armor, etc... and its a good thing my group is a casual group.
I feel that most units need to use their special rules to be successful in most cases.
After soakinig up OW with some wind riders I plan on assaulting, slice and dice, then hit and run in most cases with the bikes. Not sure if it will be vialble bu that is the plan. Using Faolchu's blade seems like a good choice with that strategy.
I dont plan on using the bolas at all. With a 12 inch range it is to much to risk to have it blow back onto the bike.
I'll admit I haven't tried them yet, but the bolas shouldn't really hit you very often. They are on a BS4 platform, so if you are 8 1/2" away, they will never hit you. Even at 7" away, the chances of it hitting your model are only 3/36 or ~ 8.3%, and that is only if the arrow is pointing straight back toward your unit. Since 1/3 of the scatter dice results are hits, you can reduce that 8.3% to about 5.5%, which should go even lower since, even on a miss, the arrow could be pointing in any number of different directions. Probable actual chance of this happening is somewhere around 1% per bola.
OTOH, the bolas are by far the most annoying piece of Harlequin equipment out there from a modeling perspective. I've already broken two of them and had to re-glue them. Annoying!
For giggles, I wrote up a list of Eldar, Heroes' Way, and Faolchu's Blade.
With 2 CC skyweavers, I have a jetbike farseer with one and a spiritseer with faolchu's wing. The bikeseer keeps up with one unit, while the spiritseer throws up conceal on the other skyweaver unit and runs to keep up with them for a 2+ rerollable cover save. Heroes Way is just too good of a formation to pass up as well.
Rypher wrote: For giggles, I wrote up a list of Eldar, Heroes' Way, and Faolchu's Blade.
With 2 CC skyweavers, I have a jetbike farseer with one and a spiritseer with faolchu's wing. The bikeseer keeps up with one unit, while the spiritseer throws up conceal on the other skyweaver unit and runs to keep up with them for a 2+ rerollable cover save. Heroes Way is just too good of a formation to pass up as well.
My immediate thought upon seeing the skyweavers was to run a full squad with 2 jetseers. Would have been expensive, but would have had some pretty amazing potential. Then I realized they didn't come with grenades.............
MrFlutterPie wrote: Has anybody give though to using Faolchu's Blade but equipping their skyweavers for melee? A 4+ re-rollable cover save could go a long way to helping keeping them alive. Since you are trying to assault the loss of BS isn't a huge deal. 4 Str. 5 AP 2 attacks per bike isn't too shabby. Plus it might draw some fire away from the troupes.
I have not but will once I get the dex in hand (damn winter storm delying the dex after the damn dock workers strick, lol). Going back and forth between threads and down loads is a pain.
I know folks are down on the sky weavers due to its cost, armor, etc... and its a good thing my group is a casual group.
I feel that most units need to use their special rules to be successful in most cases.
After soakinig up OW with some wind riders I plan on assaulting, slice and dice, then hit and run in most cases with the bikes. Not sure if it will be vialble bu that is the plan. Using Faolchu's blade seems like a good choice with that strategy.
I dont plan on using the bolas at all. With a 12 inch range it is to much to risk to have it blow back onto the bike.
I'll admit I haven't tried them yet, but the bolas shouldn't really hit you very often. They are on a BS4 platform, so if you are 8 1/2" away, they will never hit you. Even at 7" away, the chances of it hitting your model are only 3/36 or ~ 8.3%, and that is only if the arrow is pointing straight back toward your unit. Since 1/3 of the scatter dice results are hits, you can reduce that 8.3% to about 5.5%, which should go even lower since, even on a miss, the arrow could be pointing in any number of different directions. Probable actual chance of this happening is somewhere around 1% per bola.
OTOH, the bolas are by far the most annoying piece of Harlequin equipment out there from a modeling perspective. I've already broken two of them and had to re-glue them. Annoying!
Great point. I guess if I had to trim points I could swing a couple. But that flavor looks sweet on the charge.
Do a lot of other army bike or jetbike equivalents get grenades?
I love the harli jetbikes, in most cases anything you charge your opponent is going to be picking up off the table. That is what I have found to be their weakness of sorts so far. Is that they take out units too fast and get shot up instead of staying locked in combat to hit and run out of during your opponents turn.
Marines, probably the most prevalent bike force atm, have grenades- b/c marines.
DE Reavers don't get grenades, because apparently that technology is coveted in the Dark City being as no one but characters have access........But reavers get rending HoW attacks, and Caltrops on them get D6 S6 Rending HoW (at I10). So grenades become less of an issue.
Seer Council didn't, but it's seer council so first/last didn't matter you weren't going to lose anyone anyway.
Spawn are beasts.
Beast packs are.....beasts.
Shining Spears don't. See below.
The rest don't, but they don't need it either. Most bike units are shooting platforms, the ones above are the exception. All of them have some sort of durability boost (T5, Armor 3, Skilled rider etc.) Shining Spears and skyweavers have the same problem: they're incredibly expensive, have moderate durability, and perform a high risk roll. CC is high risk, it requires exposing yourself to a lot of risk. Every good CC unit in the game has some way of mitigating this, either through cheap bodies (Reavers) or high durability (Council, Marines). Just hitting hard in CC isn't enough, as most of us follow the maxim "Shoot the choppy things, chop the shooty things". And there's the problem: the one thing these two CC units have going for them (hard hitting in CC) is completely nullified by an opponent who knows how to keep their toes in cover.
Skyweaver would make a decent shooting platform, except the freakin haywire is blast. I'm sure one day GW will realize that blast weapons on skimmers don't work, but they obviously didn't put that together before the Harlie Codex was released. If that thing had been Heavy 2, I'd have been all over it like a fat kid on cake. But an AV10 gun platform that doesn't jink = KP. It's actually kind of insulting that they acknowledge this via mirage launchers, but did it anyway.
Rypher wrote: For giggles, I wrote up a list of Eldar, Heroes' Way, and Faolchu's Blade.
With 2 CC skyweavers, I have a jetbike farseer with one and a spiritseer with faolchu's wing. The bikeseer keeps up with one unit, while the spiritseer throws up conceal on the other skyweaver unit and runs to keep up with them for a 2+ rerollable cover save. Heroes Way is just too good of a formation to pass up as well.
My immediate thought upon seeing the skyweavers was to run a full squad with 2 jetseers. Would have been expensive, but would have had some pretty amazing potential. Then I realized they didn't come with grenades.............
That was my thought as well, and then you reminded me about the grenades! I'm going to try it out though, I have seen Farseer and Autarch with Shinning Spears do really well before and you don't need the Exarch for hit and run with the Skyweavers.
You only need to jink against ap4 or better, and you have a 5+ invuln save if you don't think many shots are going to hit( such as a plasma cannon or a reaper auto cannon) having two wounds helps in this regard. And you do have the jsj ability all eldar jetbikes have, so go ahead and dive into ruins if you don't have a charge target, there's your 4+ cover.
The main benefit these bikes have is the one use 4+ invuln save. Everyone talks about the amount of ignores cover out there, these guys laugh at your marker light bonuses and your fire on my target orders. No other bikes(or av10 skimmers) in the game can boast that( as far as I can recall)
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: You only need to jink against ap4 or better, and you have a 5+ invuln save if you don't think many shots are going to hit( such as a plasma cannon or a reaper auto cannon) having two wounds helps in this regard. And you do have the jsj ability all eldar jetbikes have, so go ahead and dive into ruins if you don't have a charge target, there's your 4+ cover.
The main benefit these bikes have is the one use 4+ invuln save. Everyone talks about the amount of ignores cover out there, these guys laugh at your marker light bonuses and your fire on my target orders. No other bikes(or av10 skimmers) in the game can boast that( as far as I can recall)
Be careful jumping in and out of cover, you don't have skilled rider, so jumping in and out of cover can be very dangerous. Too bad they didn't come with flip belts.
I was as shocked as you where when I found out they didn't have it. I felt like that was the last nail in the coffin. Oh the bright side, I love the kits, those masks that they come with sure are fun to put on other models.
lambsandlions wrote: I was as shocked as you where when I found out they didn't have it. I felt like that was the last nail in the coffin. Oh the bright side, I love the kits, those masks that they come with sure are fun to put on other models.
They also have heaps of heads to add on onto other vehicle pilots as well.
They arent totally bad, but in any competitive environment they are certainly not worth their 50+ points cost.
Hi guys have read through the whole thread and got some great info from it. I'm having a bit of a quandary over what my harlequin ally detachment should be to my eldar army. Every time I think I've decided and change my mind. Want tribute the bullets and order the models today so any helpwould be greatly appreciated...
1. 5 player troupe (all with kisses), level 1 shadowseer and starweaver transport - 250 (unbound)
2. 5 player troupe (all with kisses), level 2 shadowseer and deathjester - 265 (bound)
3. 8 player troupe (all with kisses), level 2 shadowseer - 265 (unbound)
They will be in a 1000 point army so can't spend much more and it is very casual so unbound not a problem. Mainly want to know if it's worth the starweaver or not or go foot with them and get more bodies???? People are starting to experience them now so hopefully have some insight. Thanks
Xeones7 wrote: Hi guys have read through the whole thread and got some great info from it. I'm having a bit of a quandary over what my harlequin ally detachment should be to my eldar army. Every time I think I've decided and change my mind. Want tribute the bullets and order the models today so any helpwould be greatly appreciated...
1. 5 player troupe (all with kisses), level 1 shadowseer and starweaver transport - 250 (unbound)
2. 5 player troupe (all with kisses), level 2 shadowseer and deathjester - 265 (bound)
3. 8 player troupe (all with kisses), level 2 shadowseer - 265 (unbound)
They will be in a 1000 point army so can't spend much more and it is very casual so unbound not a problem. Mainly want to know if it's worth the starweaver or not or go foot with them and get more bodies???? People are starting to experience them now so hopefully have some insight. Thanks
Definitely go with option 2 for the moment, as the ability to have the "cast of players" formation give Crusader to your other Eldar units could be very valuable. Plus, it makes it a bound army and then you can build from there by adding a Starweaver (which can be added to the formation - even if the models can't start the game in it, it is still a respectable Dakka platform). Plus, both the Death Jester and Shadowseer models are fantastic - you will not be disappointed.
By they way, have you guys seen that "Harlequin Codex Review" over on BoLS? Wow, that was just a terrible review. He basically says Harlequins are a shooting army (wut) and one of the best units in the codex are the Skyweavers, while Shadowseers and Troupes suck (wut again). Not a mention of Veil, no discussion of tactics, just "load up on Shuriken Cannons and shoot." Just incredibly lazy. I have stopped going to BoLS much lately because the quality of the articles has been so bad - just tons of clickbait and content-free trash thrown up there to stir the pot. But, this "review" might just be the end for me.
Yea I read that today and wow, harliquins are no shooty army. The review was done by someone who clearly does not want to play anything that requires thinking and strategy.
Yes will it stand up to top tier tourney lists not alone but there is some very useful things that can cause massive damage. I saw a batrep where the guy deepstrikes a archon w/cast of players in a venom within the ld bubbles and used the grenade launchers, psychic powers and DJ/pistol shooting to decimate a deathstar. Not going to all work on fearless but still that's a nice unit and I def would try it sometime.
Xeones7 wrote: Hi guys have read through the whole thread and got some great info from it. I'm having a bit of a quandary over what my harlequin ally detachment should be to my eldar army. Every time I think I've decided and change my mind. Want tribute the bullets and order the models today so any helpwould be greatly appreciated...
1. 5 player troupe (all with kisses), level 1 shadowseer and starweaver transport - 250 (unbound)
2. 5 player troupe (all with kisses), level 2 shadowseer and deathjester - 265 (bound)
3. 8 player troupe (all with kisses), level 2 shadowseer - 265 (unbound)
They will be in a 1000 point army so can't spend much more and it is very casual so unbound not a problem. Mainly want to know if it's worth the starweaver or not or go foot with them and get more bodies???? People are starting to experience them now so hopefully have some insight. Thanks
Definitely go with option 2 for the moment, as the ability to have the "cast of players" formation give Crusader to your other Eldar units could be very valuable. Plus, it makes it a bound army and then you can build from there by adding a Starweaver (which can be added to the formation - even if the models can't start the game in it, it is still a respectable Dakka platform). Plus, both the Death Jester and Shadowseer models are fantastic - you will not be disappointed.
By they way, have you guys seen that "Harlequin Codex Review" over on BoLS? Wow, that was just a terrible review. He basically says Harlequins are a shooting army (wut) and one of the best units in the codex are the Skyweavers, while Shadowseers and Troupes suck (wut again). Not a mention of Veil, no discussion of tactics, just "load up on Shuriken Cannons and shoot." Just incredibly lazy. I have stopped going to BoLS much lately because the quality of the articles has been so bad - just tons of clickbait and content-free trash thrown up there to stir the pot. But, this "review" might just be the end for me.
Read it, and while I agree with some conclusions I think he's missing a bigger point. He wants a shooty army pretty obviously, so right off the bat Harlies got nothing for him. As he mentions, Troupes are 95 points base, and die in droves to a stiff breeze. He correctly compares them to DAs in WS, but misses the point. DAs do litterally nothing, and are a tax for your WS. That's it. That's the sum of their contribution to a game. Periodically they survive and cap an Objective as well, but that's really all you can hope for from them. If you try to use Harlequins the same way you're going to fail. But not because Harlies are bad, but because their transport is completely different. It's much more vulnerable, and has lower dmg potential. Your troops in this instance, must carry their weight. And once you realize they have Move through Cover, fleet, and can run/charge it shouldn't be a stretch to figure out how get them to contribute. I completely agree: the way he wants to play harlies makes them awful and unusable.
I'm not 100% sure what he's wanting from the organization chart. He pretty obviously is wanting to spam S6 weapon shots, and makes a big stink about not being able to get more Starweavers (which are definitely worth spamming, don't get me wrong). But a "traditional" Force org chart would only net him 1 more Starweaver anyway. And/or it'd allow him to spam more Skyweavers, but.....
Skyweavers? Really? And Shadowseers are crap? Don't get me wrong, Skyweavers are no howling banshees, but in a codex that so obviously is meant to be run with allies it's the first thing you cut from the list. I agree, and have stated several times now, that I think running shadowseers in a Starweaver is a mistake causing you to lose out on the entire reason you're bringing them (psychic phase). But the rest of his analysis is just dead wrong. "Alignment of the stars" to get off their best powers? Are you kidding? Their best power is their primaris power, you know- the one that mitigates that whole pesky getting shot off the board before you make combat thing? The rest of the powers are gravy on top of of the gravy sauce that is SS's. I mean, seriously, VoT is better protection from 20" out than freaking invis. and that's before factoring in the risk your opponent is going to take in loosing a turn of shooting (16" is about where I'd start rolling against veil myself).
I do agree on his assessment of Solitaires. 20 bolter shots killing a 145 points is more risk than I want in one model. He isn't great, but he's flavorful and fun and played right can do amazing things. Like skyweavers, first to be cut to save points for allies.
Voidweavers.......again I agree. 5 points so that you can still shoot after jinking isn't a bad investment to make your stupid HS tax easier to swallow.
But again, his entire conclusion is wrong because he wants the army to be something it's not. It's not marines, and it's not CWE/DE. It's Demons w/o monstrous creatures. Demons if the book had to do something besides find how many wings you can fit in a list.
I have had a few games with the Harlequins, and I actually can't wait to try them out against waveserpent spam! They have done surprisingly well against both astra militarum and necrons at low point values, and give my buddies tyranids a good game barring stupid deployment mistakes on my part.
I would love to see an army that relies on extreme range and ignores cover to stop their opponents deal with this kind of fast moving, impossible to shoot, melee destructiveness
The only thing I've had totally shut me down so far is min sized units of rippers with spinefists. Annoying little buggers have such low range that by the time they can shoot, me having VoT up isn't an issue. Multishot, short range weaponry is going to be a problem...
lambsandlions wrote: I was as shocked as you where when I found out they didn't have it. I felt like that was the last nail in the coffin. Oh the bright side, I love the kits, those masks that they come with sure are fun to put on other models.
They also have heaps of heads to add on onto other vehicle pilots as well.
They arent totally bad, but in any competitive environment they are certainly not worth their 50+ points cost.
between these and the weaver dual kits I have waited to put all my troupes together. With all the torso, head, mask and weapon choices just about every harly will be unique.
I have a long weekend after work Wednesday, plus I will finally get my copy of the dex so I will be busy assembling the masque!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dash2021 wrote: Marines, probably the most prevalent bike force atm, have grenades- b/c marines.
DE Reavers don't get grenades, because apparently that technology is coveted in the Dark City being as no one but characters have access........But reavers get rending HoW attacks, and Caltrops on them get D6 S6 Rending HoW (at I10). So grenades become less of an issue.
Seer Council didn't, but it's seer council so first/last didn't matter you weren't going to lose anyone anyway.
Spawn are beasts.
Beast packs are.....beasts.
Shining Spears don't. See below.
The rest don't, but they don't need it either. Most bike units are shooting platforms, the ones above are the exception. All of them have some sort of durability boost (T5, Armor 3, Skilled rider etc.) Shining Spears and skyweavers have the same problem: they're incredibly expensive, have moderate durability, and perform a high risk roll. CC is high risk, it requires exposing yourself to a lot of risk. Every good CC unit in the game has some way of mitigating this, either through cheap bodies (Reavers) or high durability (Council, Marines). Just hitting hard in CC isn't enough, as most of us follow the maxim "Shoot the choppy things, chop the shooty things". And there's the problem: the one thing these two CC units have going for them (hard hitting in CC) is completely nullified by an opponent who knows how to keep their toes in cover.
Skyweaver would make a decent shooting platform, except the freakin haywire is blast. I'm sure one day GW will realize that blast weapons on skimmers don't work, but they obviously didn't put that together before the Harlie Codex was released. If that thing had been Heavy 2, I'd have been all over it like a fat kid on cake. But an AV10 gun platform that doesn't jink = KP. It's actually kind of insulting that they acknowledge this via mirage launchers, but did it anyway.
Good points. It seems a lot of cc units don't have grenades. When I played necrons I was annoyed that praetorians and lychguard did not get them. Being new to nids last year when I started a nid army I was wondering why hormos did not get them.
A buddy wanted to house rule shining spears had grenades, I voted no way that any unit would love to scoot across the board, shoot and charge into cover with ease.
I used the necron and nid examples and he eventually agreed. Maybe gaunts are a bad example but surely there are others.
without trying to steer this off course could it be a form of balance? They are pricey and in addition seem to be getting good reviews in what battle reports I have seen or read about here.
do they really need them?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Rereading some recent posts apparently so, lol.
The first one I can agree with, but can you explain those last two?
Did you mean easily shootable and mediocre-to-poor melee? I can't think of any other way to describe Harlequins.
With a shadowseer using veil of tears, they literally cannot be shot beyond 24" extreme long range armies are at a serious disadvantage. Most of the assault based armies rely on superior toughness and good armor saves to win the day, as well as a high ap value to carry their destructive capability. Harlequin troupes have no save to negate, and will be hitting before anything that isn't a daemon of slaanesh/ some dark eldar units. Our damage is dealt first, and (with the caress, kiss, or embrace) can devastate most anything on the charge. We can even drop an imperial knight before he swings with a 10 man unit with the caress. That kind of damage per model is rare. And the fact that that unit has as much chance of surviving the subsequent explosion as chain fist terminators can't really be ignored.
I posted this in the DE thread and wanted to know what you guys thought.
I have been looking at the phantasmancy spells and one that really popped out at me is dance of shadows, which gives a friendly unit withing 18" stealth and shroud. Now I know you can not always guarantee it but does that spell increase the viability of some DE units. I am looking at khymera in particular, because they are fast and can move through cover, giving them stealth and shroud increases their survivability by a ton and they can make good screens to eat overwatch for harlequins. If you are running 3 lvl2 spirit seers the odds of getting dance of shadows is pretty good. With reavers you can cast dance of shadows on t1, turbo boost to assault range, jink for a 2+ cover save and then assault t2. There are a lot of units in our codex that beg the question "how am I going to cross the board" and I feel shadowseers may be the answer to a lot of them. Even a shadowseer in a beast pack might be good, sure it will slow down the unit a little but if you have 12 large bases you can easily chain them together so the front base is moving 12" a turn and getting into assaults where the shadowseer can slingshot in.
With a shadowseer using veil of tears, they literally cannot be shot beyond 24"
By what means are you guaranteeing having that power active when you get shot?
It's a WC 1 primaris power that targets the shadowseer and his unit. Aside from top of first turn going second, it shouldn't be at all difficult to keep up.
With a shadowseer using veil of tears, they literally cannot be shot beyond 24"
By what means are you guaranteeing having that power active when you get shot?
there are no guarantees, this is a dice game. However, is it really that difficult to get a warp charge one primaris power off? How many armies and death stars are considered viable due to prescience? How could this ability be any harder to utilize?
lambsandlions wrote: I posted this in the DE thread and wanted to know what you guys thought.
I have been looking at the phantasmancy spells and one that really popped out at me is dance of shadows, which gives a friendly unit withing 18" stealth and shroud. Now I know you can not always guarantee it but does that spell increase the viability of some DE units. I am looking at khymera in particular, because they are fast and can move through cover, giving them stealth and shroud increases their survivability by a ton and they can make good screens to eat overwatch for harlequins. If you are running 3 lvl2 spirit seers the odds of getting dance of shadows is pretty good. With reavers you can cast dance of shadows on t1, turbo boost to assault range, jink for a 2+ cover save and then assault t2. There are a lot of units in our codex that beg the question "how am I going to cross the board" and I feel shadowseers may be the answer to a lot of them. Even a shadowseer in a beast pack might be good, sure it will slow down the unit a little but if you have 12 large bases you can easily chain them together so the front base is moving 12" a turn and getting into assaults where the shadowseer can slingshot in.
To the bolded: this sounds familiar.
Shadowseers are far and away the stars of the codex. I'm almost glad the formations/detachment are so restrictive, or you'd see 2 troupes 6 shadowseers in every CWE/DE list. They're like mini farseers you can spam, and both codexes have units that go from good to amazing with just a small bump in power. WG, reavers, wyches (actually from terrible to good here), etc.
As to the beast pack: shadowseer spam + beastpack spam is definitely a decent option. Even w/out stealth/shrouded, just Veil to save you a turn of shooting and HnR is plenty to make it viable. Shadows is just bonus when you get it. I used to run Seer Council with baron who was faster than a ignore terrain + Fleet run shadowseer but had to keep up with small based models and it was never much of an issue.
Speaking of Seer Council losing HnR since baron..........
I was just thinking, allied in farseer with divination, harlequin squad filled with Harlequin's caress, should be able to take on centurionstar. If they are invisible, I need 6's to hit, I get to reroll all failed misses so 25 attacks on the charge, equals 4 hits, rerolls give another ~3. That is 7 automatic wounds at ap2. If you chalenge out Draigo, you could actually deal a significant amount of damage with a 120 point unit to one of the hardest to kill death stars in the game. Considering how expensive that star is(especially with Draigo, Tigurius, and the ml3 librarian in there) that exchange should be well worth it!
Edit for over excitement. I mathed wrong, would be about 6 hits.
Yes. Even activating it once will be nothing to count on.
But you're factoring in it being activated for every unit in your army, which is just implausible.
Why every unit even though you never said that? If it's not active on every unit, then it doesn't matter that it's active on some. The ones uncovered are dead.
Yes. Even activating it once will be nothing to count on.
But you're factoring in it being activated for every unit in your army, which is just implausible.
Why every unit even though you never said that? If it's not active on every unit, then it doesn't matter that it's active on some. The ones uncovered are dead.
You mean all 3 units in your army that can benefit? With only 6 slots for ML2 psychers?
In my army, any of them that aren't having it activated will be in a transport with a 4+ invuln save, behind cover, waiting to rush out. My list includes 4 shadowseer, 3 are mastery level two. That's between 8 and 13 warp charges. If I NEED it to go off, I can. And if by some chance it still doesn't, I can run in the shooting phase to limit your shots against them anyway.
Also, this army is completely ignorant of terrain, hiding behind ruins and whatnot isntngoing to inhibit me in the slightest. My troupers can run and assault after turn two, and nothing in the game besides the occasional strength D weapon, and one assassin can ignore my saves. That means I can bank on 1/3 of my wounds are going to be saved. It may not seem like much, but I don't ever have to worry about the ap of my opponents weapons that are targeting my infantry, anything above las guns is wasting points trying to punch through armor I don't have, and anything above str 5 is wasting strength on them due to it all wounding on2+.
This army is very contrary to the meta, and I feel that once some people with serious skill throw it into a major tournament their opponents will have a hard time dealing with them.
My$.02
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: In my army, any of them that aren't having it activated will be in a transport with a 4+ invuln save, behind cover, waiting to rush out. My list includes 4 shadowseer, 3 are mastery level two. That's between 8 and 13 warp charges. If I NEED it to go off, I can. And if by some chance it still doesn't, I can run in the shooting phase to limit your shots against them anyway.
Also, this army is completely ignorant of terrain, hiding behind ruins and whatnot isntngoing to inhibit me in the slightest. My troupers can run and assault after turn two, and nothing in the game besides the occasional strength D weapon, and one assassin can ignore my saves. That means I can bank on 1/3 of my wounds are going to be saved. It may not seem like much, but I don't ever have to worry about the ap of my opponents weapons that are targeting my infantry, anything above las guns is wasting points trying to punch through armor I don't have, and anything above str 5 is wasting strength on them due to it all wounding on2+.
This army is very contrary to the meta, and I feel that once some people with serious skill throw it into a major tournament their opponents will have a hard time dealing with them.
My$.02
Speaking of ignoring terrain, don't forget to launch your assault with the lead in cover. No reason to not get that 4+ save from overwatch, or 2+ if you get Shadows
Ok - so help me think my way out of the predicament I'm in. I know that the leadership bomb build is super situational, expensive, random, and bad. I know. I get it. I still want to see how far I can go with it.
The first hurdle I'm facing is of course which Harli formation to run with - and just to keep things manageable I think it has to be the Players. Anything else is just way too many points in a list that is already ridiculously concentrated. I'd be open to another formation, but I'm just not sure it's workable.
Still, with that decided we start to see the shape of my fear bomb. A 5 man unit of harlies, with shadowseer, death jester, archon, and farseer. Maybe two farseers if I really want to go crazy. Tack on a raider, and you're looking at more than five or six hundred points with both the mask on the ss and armor and wwp on the archon, and you haven't even bought weapons for your troupe. It's a lot of points. And it's pretty fragile. But I think it has potential. Look at what those 600 points buy you. Pinpoint deepstrike with two shrieks (or three if you shoot for 2 farseers), at a -4 or -5 leadership modifier. On average, that's two dead riptides. Or hive tyrants. Or a squad of centurions, or broadsides, or terminators, or whatever. You get the idea. God help them if you role dominate. But terrify will also do the trick as well. And there's the death jester's shenanigans. In short, this unit drops and aims to destroy/neuter 2-4 units.
There are several challenges of course- which I hope to resolve with the rest of the list. The first is simply those durn metal bawkses. A mechanized list really rains on this concept's parade. The second challenge is a reserve or mobile list that's able to counter-strike your rather fragile deathstar - or table you before it comes in. The third challenge is the traditional bane of deathstar lists - either MSU or Tarpits.
I have some ideas of my own on how to best put things together, but I was curious if anyone else has worked out a list. I'm currently thinking a Covens Grotesquerie formation to get the leadership modifier to -5, and some warp spiders to potentially help with de-mechanizing or force more pinning checks. If you add those ingredients in as well, (two 5 man spider squads and a Haemonculous with two units of grots in raiders) you've only spent about 1100-1200 points. I know that relying on morale tricks seems unreliable, but when they're trying to roll under a 3 or 4 it's pretty darn reliable. Or at least it seems that way to me. It's a pity that snipers don't cause pinning checks anymore.
Belac Ynnead wrote: Ok - so help me think my way out of the predicament I'm in. I know that the leadership bomb build is super situational, expensive, random, and bad. I know. I get it. I still want to see how far I can go with it.
The first hurdle I'm facing is of course which Harli formation to run with - and just to keep things manageable I think it has to be the Players. Anything else is just way too many points in a list that is already ridiculously concentrated. I'd be open to another formation, but I'm just not sure it's workable.
Still, with that decided we start to see the shape of my fear bomb. A 5 man unit of harlies, with shadowseer, death jester, archon, and farseer. Maybe two farseers if I really want to go crazy. Tack on a raider, and you're looking at more than five or six hundred points with both the mask on the ss and armor and wwp on the archon, and you haven't even bought weapons for your troupe. It's a lot of points. And it's pretty fragile. But I think it has potential. Look at what those 600 points buy you. Pinpoint deepstrike with two shrieks (or three if you shoot for 2 farseers), at a -4 or -5 leadership modifier. On average, that's two dead riptides. Or hive tyrants. Or a squad of centurions, or broadsides, or terminators, or whatever. You get the idea. God help them if you role dominate. But terrify will also do the trick as well. And there's the death jester's shenanigans. In short, this unit drops and aims to destroy/neuter 2-4 units.
There are several challenges of course- which I hope to resolve with the rest of the list. The first is simply those durn metal bawkses. A mechanized list really rains on this concept's parade. The second challenge is a reserve or mobile list that's able to counter-strike your rather fragile deathstar - or table you before it comes in. The third challenge is the traditional bane of deathstar lists - either MSU or Tarpits.
I have some ideas of my own on how to best put things together, but I was curious if anyone else has worked out a list. I'm currently thinking a Covens Grotesquerie formation to get the leadership modifier to -5, and some warp spiders to potentially help with de-mechanizing or force more pinning checks. If you add those ingredients in as well, (two 5 man spider squads and a Haemonculous with two units of grots in raiders) you've only spent about 1100-1200 points. I know that relying on morale tricks seems unreliable, but when they're trying to roll under a 3 or 4 it's pretty darn reliable. Or at least it seems that way to me. It's a pity that snipers don't cause pinning checks anymore.
First, is # of sources an issue? Cause atm you're talking about 3-4, and most settings that isn't allowed.
Second, the conservative interpretation of the psycher rules says you can't cast more than one of the same power from a unit, no matter how many psychers have it. So even if you get 3 Psychic Shrieks, as long as the psychers are in the same squad you can only cast it once. I think it's a pretty ignorant way to interpret the rule from a RAI standpoint, but that's neither here nor there.
Third, the fear bomb is pretty gimicky tbh. For all the reasons you listed (APCs, MSU, etc.) it isn't something you should build a list around. If you have a unit that you're already DS'ng w/a Armor of misery, and want to add a Shadowseer - go for it. As is you'd have to also take shadowfield, since your unit is going to have to disembark to cast powers which means you need someone to tank for your paper warriors. So add on another 40pts to your total. Even then all your opponent needs to do is move around the tank, and you're picking up 20pt models from lasgun fire. Just not worth it.
If I was going to do something along these lines I'd just run a wraithbomb. Farseer, 5 Spirit seers, shadowseer or 2. Unit is Obsec, has AP2 shooting, T6 majority, HnR. Spirit seers can get Horrify from RoBattle at -3 LD, for a total of -5LD after mask. Gate of infinity to keep from getting out-maneuvered and this thing is a monster on wheels.
Belac Ynnead wrote: Ok - so help me think my way out of the predicament I'm in. I know that the leadership bomb build is super situational, expensive, random, and bad. I know. I get it. I still want to see how far I can go with it.
The first hurdle I'm facing is of course which Harli formation to run with - and just to keep things manageable I think it has to be the Players. Anything else is just way too many points in a list that is already ridiculously concentrated. I'd be open to another formation, but I'm just not sure it's workable.
Still, with that decided we start to see the shape of my fear bomb. A 5 man unit of harlies, with shadowseer, death jester, archon, and farseer. Maybe two farseers if I really want to go crazy. Tack on a raider, and you're looking at more than five or six hundred points with both the mask on the ss and armor and wwp on the archon, and you haven't even bought weapons for your troupe. It's a lot of points. And it's pretty fragile. But I think it has potential. Look at what those 600 points buy you. Pinpoint deepstrike with two shrieks (or three if you shoot for 2 farseers), at a -4 or -5 leadership modifier. On average, that's two dead riptides. Or hive tyrants. Or a squad of centurions, or broadsides, or terminators, or whatever. You get the idea. God help them if you role dominate. But terrify will also do the trick as well. And there's the death jester's shenanigans. In short, this unit drops and aims to destroy/neuter 2-4 units.
There are several challenges of course- which I hope to resolve with the rest of the list. The first is simply those durn metal bawkses. A mechanized list really rains on this concept's parade. The second challenge is a reserve or mobile list that's able to counter-strike your rather fragile deathstar - or table you before it comes in. The third challenge is the traditional bane of deathstar lists - either MSU or Tarpits.
I have some ideas of my own on how to best put things together, but I was curious if anyone else has worked out a list. I'm currently thinking a Covens Grotesquerie formation to get the leadership modifier to -5, and some warp spiders to potentially help with de-mechanizing or force more pinning checks. If you add those ingredients in as well, (two 5 man spider squads and a Haemonculous with two units of grots in raiders) you've only spent about 1100-1200 points. I know that relying on morale tricks seems unreliable, but when they're trying to roll under a 3 or 4 it's pretty darn reliable. Or at least it seems that way to me. It's a pity that snipers don't cause pinning checks anymore.
First, is # of sources an issue? Cause atm you're talking about 3-4, and most settings that isn't allowed.
Second, the conservative interpretation of the psycher rules says you can't cast more than one of the same power from a unit, no matter how many psychers have it. So even if you get 3 Psychic Shrieks, as long as the psychers are in the same squad you can only cast it once. I think it's a pretty ignorant way to interpret the rule from a RAI standpoint, but that's neither here nor there.
Third, the fear bomb is pretty gimicky tbh. For all the reasons you listed (APCs, MSU, etc.) it isn't something you should build a list around. If you have a unit that you're already DS'ng w/a Armor of misery, and want to add a Shadowseer - go for it. As is you'd have to also take shadowfield, since your unit is going to have to disembark to cast powers which means you need someone to tank for your paper warriors. So add on another 40pts to your total. Even then all your opponent needs to do is move around the tank, and you're picking up 20pt models from lasgun fire. Just not worth it.
If I was going to do something along these lines I'd just run a wraithbomb. Farseer, 5 Spirit seers, shadowseer or 2. Unit is Obsec, has AP2 shooting, T6 majority, HnR. Spirit seers can get Horrify from RoBattle at -3 LD, for a total of -5LD after mask. Gate of infinity to keep from getting out-maneuvered and this thing is a monster on wheels.
Interesting idea. I've been considering running Wraithblades alongside Cast of Players to give the Wraiths Crusader, which really helps them a lot as they are too slow for a melee unit otherwise. Attaching a Shadowseer and Spiritseer(s) for Shriek, Horrify, Hit and Run and Runes of Battle buffs could be interesting too.
Interesting idea. I've been considering running Wraithblades alongside Cast of Players to give the Wraiths Crusader, which really helps them a lot as they are too slow for a melee unit otherwise. Attaching a Shadowseer and Spiritseer(s) for Shriek, Horrify, Hit and Run and Runes of Battle buffs could be interesting too.
I personally love wraithblades, they are a great "sticky" unit because they can take a charge and stay in combat. Quicken is another great Runes of Battle power (+3" run) that can really get them up the board if you don't go for Gate. I love the idea of a tough melee unit followed by a troupe backing them up and bailing them out when they get locked in combat. It can be tricky to position everything "just so," but that is what makes it an interesting challenge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, having said all that and re-reading your post, attaching a Shadowseer to a Wraithblade unit and giving it hit and run would allow them to bounce from combat to combat of course so they don't get locked. The only problem is you can't detatch a Shadowseer from Cast of Players, (I don't think), so that means a Masque detachment which is expensive points wise.
As mentioned earlier, the Shadowseer is going to be friends with a LOT of Eldar and DE units, its probably a good thing you can't take them separately as part of a bound army without the heavy tax of the formations.
Interesting idea. I've been considering running Wraithblades alongside Cast of Players to give the Wraiths Crusader, which really helps them a lot as they are too slow for a melee unit otherwise. Attaching a Shadowseer and Spiritseer(s) for Shriek, Horrify, Hit and Run and Runes of Battle buffs could be interesting too.
I personally love wraithblades, they are a great "sticky" unit because they can take a charge and stay in combat. Quicken is another great Runes of Battle power (+3" run) that can really get them up the board if you don't go for Gate. I love the idea of a tough melee unit followed by a troupe backing them up and bailing them out when they get locked in combat. It can be tricky to position everything "just so," but that is what makes it an interesting challenge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, having said all that and re-reading your post, attaching a Shadowseer to a Wraithblade unit and giving it hit and run would allow them to bounce from combat to combat of course so they don't get locked. The only problem is you can't detatch a Shadowseer from Cast of Players, (I don't think), so that means a Masque detachment which is expensive points wise.
As mentioned earlier, the Shadowseer is going to be friends with a LOT of Eldar and DE units, its probably a good thing you can't take them separately as part of a bound army without the heavy tax of the formations.
Yeah, I know the Shadowseer can't detach. Those were kind of two separate ideas for buffing Wraithblades that got rolled into 1 post.
Interesting idea. I've been considering running Wraithblades alongside Cast of Players to give the Wraiths Crusader, which really helps them a lot as they are too slow for a melee unit otherwise. Attaching a Shadowseer and Spiritseer(s) for Shriek, Horrify, Hit and Run and Runes of Battle buffs could be interesting too.
I personally love wraithblades, they are a great "sticky" unit because they can take a charge and stay in combat. Quicken is another great Runes of Battle power (+3" run) that can really get them up the board if you don't go for Gate. I love the idea of a tough melee unit followed by a troupe backing them up and bailing them out when they get locked in combat. It can be tricky to position everything "just so," but that is what makes it an interesting challenge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, having said all that and re-reading your post, attaching a Shadowseer to a Wraithblade unit and giving it hit and run would allow them to bounce from combat to combat of course so they don't get locked. The only problem is you can't detatch a Shadowseer from Cast of Players, (I don't think), so that means a Masque detachment which is expensive points wise.
As mentioned earlier, the Shadowseer is going to be friends with a LOT of Eldar and DE units, its probably a good thing you can't take them separately as part of a bound army without the heavy tax of the formations.
True, but it'd not be as big a tax as you'd think. Sample Wraithguard list:
3 x 5 Troupes x kisses= 360
2 x Starweavers = 140
Voidweaver- 80
ML2 Shadow Seer w/mask = 100
Total = 680
Farseer- jetbike Spirt stone of anath- 130
Spirit Seer x 3- 210
Wraithguard x 9 - 288
WGWS- SL and holofields - 135
2x DAVU w/ WS (SL, holofields)- 400
Total = 1163
Army total=1843
3 WS's, the Wraith bomb and 2 Starweavers of Harlies. One Harlie unit is on foot which isn't ideal, but is manageable. Could go embark in the empty WS turn one and play free safety for CC threats to the WS line. Be clever with deployment and either reserve or hide the Harlies so they don't give up FB, and the rest of your list is pretty durable and can stand up to most anything. I like WG better than blades simply because of ID shooting. In a meta of knights and Flyrants, high S low AP shooting is a pretty hard counter. Against MSU they suffer some, but the rest of the list is pretty MSU itself, so balances that weakness out. And w/HnR on a T6 unit, you can use them as a multicharge tarpit at 0 loss of output.
About the "fear bomb" yes, it is far too gimmicky to rely on. However, if you already have a DEHQ with a WWP, why not just add a shadowseer with the mask? You can use the mask and armor and psychic shriek, just don't sink all your points into it.
lambsandlions wrote: About the "fear bomb" yes, it is far too gimmicky to rely on. However, if you already have a DEHQ with a WWP, why not just add a shadowseer with the mask? You can use the mask and armor and psychic shriek, just don't sink all your points into it.
Because of the limitations in the harlequin formations. I'd like nothing more than a simple 1 "hq" one troop formation style thing, but alas...alas...
First, is # of sources an issue? Cause atm you're talking about 3-4, and most settings that isn't allowed.
Second, the conservative interpretation of the psycher rules says you can't cast more than one of the same power from a unit, no matter how many psychers have it. So even if you get 3 Psychic Shrieks, as long as the psychers are in the same squad you can only cast it once. I think it's a pretty ignorant way to interpret the rule from a RAI standpoint, but that's neither here nor there.
Third, the fear bomb is pretty gimicky tbh. For all the reasons you listed (APCs, MSU, etc.) it isn't something you should build a list around. If you have a unit that you're already DS'ng w/a Armor of misery, and want to add a Shadowseer - go for it. As is you'd have to also take shadowfield, since your unit is going to have to disembark to cast powers which means you need someone to tank for your paper warriors. So add on another 40pts to your total. Even then all your opponent needs to do is move around the tank, and you're picking up 20pt models from lasgun fire. Just not worth it.
If I was going to do something along these lines I'd just run a wraithbomb. Farseer, 5 Spirit seers, shadowseer or 2. Unit is Obsec, has AP2 shooting, T6 majority, HnR. Spirit seers can get Horrify from RoBattle at -3 LD, for a total of -5LD after mask. Gate of infinity to keep from getting out-maneuvered and this thing is a monster on wheels.
I'm not really restricted on sources as I'm just trying to work this out for fun. And I agree with you on your reading of the RAI psyker rules. In my group we read that rule as restricting a model from recasting, not other models in the unit.
I really like your Wraithguard interpretation - it's just the rest of the requirements that are killing me. I absolutely agree that the wraithguards' durability makes for a much better deathstar. I just wish that I could run it and have the other 580 points of the harlequin detatchment to properly support them. At this point I should probably just go unbound and stop stressing about it, but hey - I think unbound is lazy.
Interesting idea. I've been considering running Wraithblades alongside Cast of Players to give the Wraiths Crusader, which really helps them a lot as they are too slow for a melee unit otherwise. Attaching a Shadowseer and Spiritseer(s) for Shriek, Horrify, Hit and Run and Runes of Battle buffs could be interesting too.
I personally love wraithblades, they are a great "sticky" unit because they can take a charge and stay in combat. Quicken is another great Runes of Battle power (+3" run) that can really get them up the board if you don't go for Gate. I love the idea of a tough melee unit followed by a troupe backing them up and bailing them out when they get locked in combat. It can be tricky to position everything "just so," but that is what makes it an interesting challenge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, having said all that and re-reading your post, attaching a Shadowseer to a Wraithblade unit and giving it hit and run would allow them to bounce from combat to combat of course so they don't get locked. The only problem is you can't detatch a Shadowseer from Cast of Players, (I don't think), so that means a Masque detachment which is expensive points wise.
As mentioned earlier, the Shadowseer is going to be friends with a LOT of Eldar and DE units, its probably a good thing you can't take them separately as part of a bound army without the heavy tax of the formations.
True, but it'd not be as big a tax as you'd think. Sample Wraithguard list:
3 x 5 Troupes x kisses= 360
2 x Starweavers = 140
Voidweaver- 80
ML2 Shadow Seer w/mask = 100
Total = 680
Farseer- jetbike Spirt stone of anath- 130
Spirit Seer x 3- 210
Wraithguard x 9 - 288
WGWS- SL and holofields - 135
2x DAVU w/ WS (SL, holofields)- 400
Total = 1163
Army total=1843
3 WS's, the Wraith bomb and 2 Starweavers of Harlies. One Harlie unit is on foot which isn't ideal, but is manageable. Could go embark in the empty WS turn one and play free safety for CC threats to the WS line. Be clever with deployment and either reserve or hide the Harlies so they don't give up FB, and the rest of your list is pretty durable and can stand up to most anything. I like WG better than blades simply because of ID shooting. In a meta of knights and Flyrants, high S low AP shooting is a pretty hard counter. Against MSU they suffer some, but the rest of the list is pretty MSU itself, so balances that weakness out. And w/HnR on a T6 unit, you can use them as a multicharge tarpit at 0 loss of output.
Nice list, seems to cover a lot of bases and its very clever to have an empty WS to stuff in the extra harlequins. I am going to add this as another list to try out, along with a modified Jet Seer list, a wraithblade list, a DE list with Razorwings and Scourges, and a pinning list with Nightspinners and Serpents.
Found a glitch for those wanting to run far seers with skyweavers, a unit has to be composed entirely of models with the mirage launchers to be able to activate them. That kinda limits who you may want to attach to them...
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Found a glitch for those wanting to run far seers with skyweavers, a unit has to be composed entirely of models with the mirage launchers to be able to activate them. That kinda limits who you may want to attach to them...
One more nail in the coffin for a unit that already was overpriced and under powered.
I'm using mine to cattle drive my opponents infantry to the edges. I have them equipped with the haywire cannons, and with a 36" threat range I'm hoping to utilize them for early game center of the board control. Strangely enough I use a symilar strategy to most MMA fighters when I play. Be the aggressor, take the center early to control opposing positioning, and force them to make a mistake by playing a style of list that they don't expect when they enter the competition.
I win more than I lose, but I don't have the time to try it out in big tournament environments. :/
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: I'm using mine to cattle drive my opponents infantry to the edges. I have them equipped with the haywire cannons, and with a 36" threat range I'm hoping to utilize them for early game center of the board control. Strangely enough I use a symilar strategy to most MMA fighters when I play. Be the aggressor, take the center early to control opposing positioning, and force them to make a mistake by playing a style of list that they don't expect when they enter the competition.
Why wouldn't people want your fragile, non-dangerous unit right where they can be easily killed?
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: I'm using mine to cattle drive my opponents infantry to the edges. I have them equipped with the haywire cannons, and with a 36" threat range I'm hoping to utilize them for early game center of the board control. Strangely enough I use a symilar strategy to most MMA fighters when I play. Be the aggressor, take the center early to control opposing positioning, and force them to make a mistake by playing a style of list that they don't expect when they enter the competition.
Why wouldn't people want your fragile, non-dangerous unit right where they can be easily killed?
Oddly enough, Skyweavers are generally no safer in cover than they are in the open. With a 4+ save, ability to jink and/or fire mirage launchers, and no wargear allowing them to auto-pass dangerous terrain checks or ability to improve on a 4+ ruin cover save, they are actually safer out in the open (where they at least don't have to take dangerous terrain checks). BLOS terrain is a different story, of course.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Found a glitch for those wanting to run far seers with skyweavers, a unit has to be composed entirely of models with the mirage launchers to be able to activate them. That kinda limits who you may want to attach to them...
One more nail in the coffin for a unit that already was overpriced and under powered.
Ugh, I'm getting the codex today, that is terrible news. The only way I can see them working is with a Farseer or two with a Shard of Anaris providing fearless, and even then that is not a very efficient use of points.
Oh well, the models look awesome and I have 6 already, so I'll use them for fun.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Found a glitch for those wanting to run far seers with skyweavers, a unit has to be composed entirely of models with the mirage launchers to be able to activate them. That kinda limits who you may want to attach to them...
One more nail in the coffin for a unit that already was overpriced and under powered.
Ugh, I'm getting the codex today, that is terrible news. The only way I can see them working is with a Farseer or two with a Shard of Anaris providing fearless, and even then that is not a very efficient use of points.
Oh well, the models look awesome and I have 6 already, so I'll use them for fun.
Ouch... 6 of them... minimum 300 point investment there.
I plan on getting another 4. My meta is rhino heavy and has a severe surplus of guardsmen and fire warriors. Str4 ap4 blast with haywire or super mobile shuriken cannons answer those questions easily! Also, I don't think they are as easy to kill as you say. They should spend most of my opponents turn out if sight and they don't guarantee lose their shooting capability if something fires an ap4 weapon their way. I think people are expecting every bike to be super hard to kill, and in this glass cannon army, it would be out of place.
I have found 3 to be a good number, but I face lots of necrons and eldar. Im the only player with squishy stuff. Also I dont think I said they are easy to kill... but they arent great at surviving anything that wants to kill them.
But even against guard, thats 50 points a model. Thats a bare bones Guardsmen unit. Any upgrades you add increase the cost more so.
Volume of attacks ruin these guys, so I end up using them to chase doen units who are similar (tomb blades, jetbikes etc) or go vehicle hunting.
I think spending 500 points minimum on 10 bikes before upgrades is really gonna make it tough. Your model count will be very, very small.
I usually run groups of wind riders for shuriken cannons, so for the same amount of cannon shots, I actually save 22 points on them. If I am using my corsairs, I actually save about 70 points. If my opponent is shooting me with blast masters, the skyweavers have a chance to survive, my other jetbikes leave the table. They are not as all around utilitarian as the wind riders, but they do fill certain niches that other jetbikes simply cannot.
Edit: I currently only have 4 bikes, I'm going to max out at 8.
I think, what makes the Windriders better is the fact you dont need to spend heaps of points for a squad of 3. Also if you wanted to, they can be supported by other jetbike characters.
At the very least, the models look great. I just think that 3 is an ok number, anything more and you are making it harder to play.
Am I the only one out there that thinks that skyweavers in Faolchu's Blade may be worthwhile? a 4+ rerollable jink seems nice for something that is probably going to be eating alot of overwatch.
Oddly enough, Skyweavers are generally no safer in cover than they are in the open. With a 4+ save, ability to jink and/or fire mirage launchers, and no wargear allowing them to auto-pass dangerous terrain checks or ability to improve on a 4+ ruin cover save, they are actually safer out in the open (where they at least don't have to take dangerous terrain checks). BLOS terrain is a different story, of course.
I don't disagree that they're just as safe out in the open. I'm disagreeing that such a level of safety will keep them alive past even a trivial amount of offense.
When you have to shoot an army at something that's a huge amount of points, it doesn't matter that it dies. When you have to shoot 2 units at it, it does.
Swabby wrote: Am I the only one out there that thinks that skyweavers in Faolchu's Blade may be worthwhile? a 4+ rerollable jink seems nice for something that is probably going to be eating alot of overwatch.
I'm going to be giving it a shot, hopefully tomorrow, in a 500 point game. I'm just going to keep them stock so I can snap shoot shuriken cannons after jinking, and try to use them to lock down enemy units in combat so my Troupe can catch up and finish them off without taking overwatch fire. Assuming I get the game in, I'll let you know how it goes.
Ugh, there was another "competitive harlequins" article on BoLS. Apparently the only thing this army is good at is giving str6 shooting to dark eldar. Also, we aren't going to affect the meta at all. Damn but I wish I had the time to go to tournaments and plop down 1850 of Harlis to see what they can really do!
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Ugh, there was another "competitive harlequins" article on BoLS. Apparently the only thing this army is good at is giving str6 shooting to dark eldar. Also, we aren't going to affect the meta at all. Damn but I wish I had the time to go to tournaments and plop down 1850 of Harlis to see what they can really do!
I will hopefully be getting in 2 games this week back to back, as spring break is finally here. I'm thinking about doing a write up despite my army being completely unpainted (being as I decided to strip them and repaint them right before graduate school started, and only got the stripping part done....). I've got one list in particular I'm eager to try out that is extremely anti-meta, and I think can work very well. I'm a big believer in finding innovative solutions to problems, which is something the net-hive mind isn't keen on- until your list wins a GT it's crap. Once it has, it's OP and everyone knew it always was.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Ugh, there was another "competitive harlequins" article on BoLS. Apparently the only thing this army is good at is giving str6 shooting to dark eldar. Also, we aren't going to affect the meta at all. Damn but I wish I had the time to go to tournaments and plop down 1850 of Harlis to see what they can really do!
I will hopefully be getting in 2 games this week back to back, as spring break is finally here. I'm thinking about doing a write up despite my army being completely unpainted (being as I decided to strip them and repaint them right before graduate school started, and only got the stripping part done....). I've got one list in particular I'm eager to try out that is extremely anti-meta, and I think can work very well. I'm a big believer in finding innovative solutions to problems, which is something the net-hive mind isn't keen on- until your list wins a GT it's crap. Once it has, it's OP and everyone knew it always was.
Please do give a write up, I think we would love to hear what you came up with.
I did read that article and found it extremely lame. If all you are doing is shooting with Harlequins, you are doing it wrong. It seems to me that they need to be in assault and they need to take advantage of leadership shenanigans and they need to sweep units rather than go toe-to-toe with them round after round. I also listened to the latest Jaded Gamer podcast (which I normally love) and they missed a ton of things and generally bashed the codex.
Personally, I have gotten more out of this thread than any of the articles I have read so far.
Agreed. The article was trash, just like the last one. BoLS articles on strategy pretty much always revolve around spamming units, never on using your head, and this one was no exception. And Theoryhammer only gets you so far - you've got to play some games to find out what really works. I have also really enjoyed this thread, and found it to be a great place to share discoveries and community knowledge.
I wish the internet would let the whole "melee is dead" thing die. The Harlequin codex, the blood angel codex, tyranids, Orks, dark eldar all of these need melee and the threat of melee to accomplish most of their mission goals. The last three only have difficulty getting to top tables without spamming crutch units because of the huge pile of waveserpents they have to wade through to get to the top. Once those take a hit, the meta is going to flip on its head!
Swastakowey wrote: About to start work on my Jetbikes, still not sure which Eldar Character supplements Harlequins the most.
Torn between Autarch, Spirit Seer or Farseer.
If you are set on adding one, I would go with the farseer. Divination for prescience will allow more 6's to hit for some units. And with solitaires, death jesters, and anyone with a caress those extra hits will make a world of difference. It is also a way to generate more warp charges easily so you can get veil of tears off on more units.
Swastakowey wrote: About to start work on my Jetbikes, still not sure which Eldar Character supplements Harlequins the most.
Torn between Autarch, Spirit Seer or Farseer.
If you are set on adding one, I would go with the farseer. Divination for prescience will allow more 6's to hit for some units. And with solitaires, death jesters, and anyone with a caress those extra hits will make a world of difference. It is also a way to generate more warp charges easily so you can get veil of tears off on more units.
Pretty much this. The questions you need to ask picking Eldar HQs: Do you need something cheap, or need reserve manipulation for your list -> Autarch. Do you have a lot of points or need WG to be troops -> Spirit Seer. Otherwise Farseer is always the answer IMO. Cheapest 3 WC psycher in the game, and for 15 points gets a jetbike? You need a very convincing argument to not take them.
Unless you are running wraithgaurd I see almost zero reason to include a spirit seer when you have access to shadow seers. The shadow seer outclasses the spirit seer. If you want cheap warp charges farseers and warlocks are the best
I'm playing around with list ideas and one is with a, 8-10 man unit of wraithblades (maybe wraithguard). I'm thinking of taking a cast of players formation to give the wraith units crusader, which if you use Iyanden the spiritseers can cast Voice of Twilight and give battle focus/furious charge. or try for Quicken from Runes of Battle as a +3" run move. The wraiths are still kind of slow, but with crusader they get a lot faster, Quicken is icing on the cake.
My question; if I take an empty Wave Serpent and stuff the Harlies in the serpent, does the 6" crusader bonus apply from the distance from the hull of the serpent? The bonus is for the formation, not sure if they being in a transport will confer.
My question; if I take an empty Wave Serpent and stuff the Harlies in the serpent, does the 6" crusader bonus apply from the distance from the hull of the serpent? The bonus is for the formation, not sure if they being in a transport will confer.
Hull. Also, pray for first turn, elsewise they may never get into a Wave Serpent.
So, after playing some games I realized a different angle for running deathjesters. Don't just use them as lures to draw people closer, use them to push support elements away from prime melee targets! I've used my jesters to good effect by simply ensuring that my opponents units don't have backup when my troupers hit home.
The last thing Harlequin troupes want is to multi assault. You don't get furious charge, you lose one attack, and the opponent may actually survive to strike back. Not good! Using multiple DJ's to push opponents around let's you chose who you are taking on from whatever angle you want.
Say you have a tau castle in the corner, 3 DJ's will drag one unit forward, push two units back, and allow you to not only hit what you want but also possibly keep them from using supporting fire!
The other benefit is that with a -2 laedership modifier, the tau, and astra militarum don't really want to be that close to the edge an way, already giving us an advantage in tactics.
lambsandlions wrote: Unless you are running wraithgaurd I see almost zero reason to include a spirit seer when you have access to shadow seers. The shadow seer outclasses the spirit seer. If you want cheap warp charges farseers and warlocks are the best
The Shadowseer gets shrouded for their primaris though and having a 3+ cover save is really nice for harlies. Veil of Tears isn't very reliable IMO, since people can just move and shoot your Harlies to hell without needing much of a 2D6 roll.
lambsandlions wrote: Unless you are running wraithgaurd I see almost zero reason to include a spirit seer when you have access to shadow seers. The shadow seer outclasses the spirit seer. If you want cheap warp charges farseers and warlocks are the best
The Shadowseer gets shrouded for their primaris though and having a 3+ cover save is really nice for harlies. Veil of Tears isn't very reliable IMO, since people can just move and shoot your Harlies to hell without needing much of a 2D6 roll.
He meant spirit seer not shadowseer. That said I don't think shroud is worth the 70 points or the hq slot.
Also quick question, do harlequins get extra attacks when charging into cover against a unit with defensive grenades?
No, they have no rule stating as such. Still wouldn't want to multi assault though, you want that +1 str! Harlequin are the only melee army that absolutely does not want to stay tied down in a fight. We do not tarpit well
I'm going to start off with the Cast of Players formation to go with my Wraith unit (with a Farseer and Spiritseer) and I'm trying to figure out the best configuration.
Here is what I have so far:
Death Jester
Shadow Seer (LM2 plus Mask)
Troupe Master with caress (because he has he most attacks, it seems logical to use the caress with him)
3 Players with embrace (to get into base contact, any more and it could be difficult)
5 Players with kiss
Total points is 363 will 11 members to possibly fit in a Wave Serpent.
The idea is that this formation will buff the wraiths with Crusader, act as a counter assault unit, and still be able to peel off and take on a small elite units, monstrous creatures, or even 10 man tac squads.
I am thinking with Veil of Tears the formation is relatively safe up from 12 to 16 inches out. At 18 inches, I can use the Hallucinogenic grenades. At 12 inches, the mask comes into effect, so shots with the Death Jester are at -4 leadership and I can push/pull units if I wound. Also, I can cast psychic powers that benefit from leadership debuffs.
There is this "no-mans" land though at 12-15 inches. Its too long for a good charge range without the run/charge benefit, but you are in rapid fire range at that point from Necrons, Marines, and Fire Warriors. Should I add in Neuro Disruptors to an already expensive unit and make it more shooty, or should I just try to close with enemy units, hope that VOT keeps me safe, and try to pin them to mitigate overwatch?
Having never played with a glass cannon melee unit before, I find it awkward to get them into position for an effective charge.
Vashones wrote: I'm going to start off with the Cast of Players formation to go with my Wraith unit (with a Farseer and Spiritseer) and I'm trying to figure out the best configuration.
Here is what I have so far:
Death Jester
Shadow Seer (LM2 plus Mask)
Troupe Master with caress (because he has he most attacks, it seems logical to use the caress with him)
3 Players with embrace (to get into base contact, any more and it could be difficult)
5 Players with kiss
Total points is 363 will 11 members to possibly fit in a Wave Serpent.
The idea is that this formation will buff the wraiths with Crusader, act as a counter assault unit, and still be able to peel off and take on a small elite units, monstrous creatures, or even 10 man tac squads.
I am thinking with Veil of Tears the formation is relatively safe up from 12 to 16 inches out. At 18 inches, I can use the Hallucinogenic grenades. At 12 inches, the mask comes into effect, so shots with the Death Jester are at -4 leadership and I can push/pull units if I wound. Also, I can cast psychic powers that benefit from leadership debuffs.
There is this "no-mans" land though at 12-15 inches. Its too long for a good charge range without the run/charge benefit, but you are in rapid fire range at that point from Necrons, Marines, and Fire Warriors. Should I add in Neuro Disruptors to an already expensive unit and make it more shooty, or should I just try to close with enemy units, hope that VOT keeps me safe, and try to pin them to mitigate overwatch?
Having never played with a glass cannon melee unit before, I find it awkward to get them into position for an effective charge.
Cast of players does have a kind of "dead man" range, being as it doesn't get run/charge. With the detachment/formation you can pretty reliably move 10" before the charge for an average 18" threat range, but cast has to be tricksey about it. You definitely don't need pistols. Nothing they can do the WG you're escorting can't do too.
Things I'd consider: adding another Spirit Seer or two, using the WG to give you cover. You're already bringing the SS's to make the wraiths troops, so go ahead and capitalize on the other thing that they have going for them- you get multiples. You already need to take Iyanden to get battle focus for the WG, so why not? Gives you opportunities to roll for invis/shrouding, and either one would be gravy. Invis is self explanatory, shrouding allows you to use those WG as a mobile screen for 2+ cover saves (and give the WG cover saves).
WG backed up by a players formation is very synergistic, in that the best way to counter foot wraiths is in combat. A blob of troupes running behind them ready to counter attack makes that a very poor option, and the WG should keep most anything far enough out that getting close enough to see through veil isn't likely.
Vashones wrote: I'm going to start off with the Cast of Players formation to go with my Wraith unit (with a Farseer and Spiritseer) and I'm trying to figure out the best configuration.
Here is what I have so far:
Death Jester
Shadow Seer (LM2 plus Mask)
Troupe Master with caress (because he has he most attacks, it seems logical to use the caress with him)
3 Players with embrace (to get into base contact, any more and it could be difficult)
5 Players with kiss
Total points is 363 will 11 members to possibly fit in a Wave Serpent.
The idea is that this formation will buff the wraiths with Crusader, act as a counter assault unit, and still be able to peel off and take on a small elite units, monstrous creatures, or even 10 man tac squads.
I am thinking with Veil of Tears the formation is relatively safe up from 12 to 16 inches out. At 18 inches, I can use the Hallucinogenic grenades. At 12 inches, the mask comes into effect, so shots with the Death Jester are at -4 leadership and I can push/pull units if I wound. Also, I can cast psychic powers that benefit from leadership debuffs.
There is this "no-mans" land though at 12-15 inches. Its too long for a good charge range without the run/charge benefit, but you are in rapid fire range at that point from Necrons, Marines, and Fire Warriors. Should I add in Neuro Disruptors to an already expensive unit and make it more shooty, or should I just try to close with enemy units, hope that VOT keeps me safe, and try to pin them to mitigate overwatch?
Having never played with a glass cannon melee unit before, I find it awkward to get them into position for an effective charge.
Cast of players does have a kind of "dead man" range, being as it doesn't get run/charge. With the detachment/formation you can pretty reliably move 10" before the charge for an average 18" threat range, but cast has to be tricksey about it. You definitely don't need pistols. Nothing they can do the WG you're escorting can't do too.
Things I'd consider: adding another Spirit Seer or two, using the WG to give you cover. You're already bringing the SS's to make the wraiths troops, so go ahead and capitalize on the other thing that they have going for them- you get multiples. You already need to take Iyanden to get battle focus for the WG, so why not? Gives you opportunities to roll for invis/shrouding, and either one would be gravy. Invis is self explanatory, shrouding allows you to use those WG as a mobile screen for 2+ cover saves (and give the WG cover saves).
WG backed up by a players formation is very synergistic, in that the best way to counter foot wraiths is in combat. A blob of troupes running behind them ready to counter attack makes that a very poor option, and the WG should keep most anything far enough out that getting close enough to see through veil isn't likely.
I will definitely modify the list to include another SS, if nothing else than having a roll on the Telepathy table.
I like the synergy of the two units as well, you just need to keep them close. But, with a unit of Wraiths plus a Wraithknight, there are more pressing threat options for most opponents, so the Harlies can hide behind them for a while. it just limits your options to break off and tackle a unit sitting on an objective, unless they are weak and/or you can find cover. But you are right, with Wraiths they have their own 12" of no mans land!
I'm going to try it out this Friday at a local tourney, I'll let everyone know how it goes.
The trick is, you want them to crush whatever they are fighting(they won't survive the counterpunch) but need them far enough away to not be shot. The death jesters and the serpents brood are the best ways I've seen to get this accomplished. Every death is really felt with Harlequins. You don't want the enemy to have any chance to attack, period.
Skerr wrote: Speaking of Telepathy has anyone had a chance to use Hammer Hand with a squad?
Hammer hand on a squad armed w Kisses would be great with the standard attack.
No but on a related note I managed to hammer hand a group of Striking Scorpions last weekend and slaughter a bunch of Tyrannid Warriors, a load of gaunts, and Venomthrope. It was a lot of fun
Got my game in today, but just one (second game canceled) and I flubbed my list. We have a group heading to adepticon this weekend, so I was trying to help the people who are going prep.
Cast of players:
7 Harlies w/kisses x 1 TM w/kiss and Haywire
Death Jester w/haywire
Shadowseer- ML2+ Haywire + mask
CWE:
Farseer- Jetbike + Shard
Farseer- Jetbike + Stone of anath
Warlock
DA x 5 in WS w/SL + holofields
DA x 5 in Ws w/SL + holofields
20 x Guardians + 2BLs
WK
Dark Reapers x 4 w/starshot+ Exarch w/starshot +nightvision +fast shot
in WS w/SL + holofields
So anyway, I flubbed bringing in the WK. Got back home and realized he wasn't in the list, and was subbed for some Warp Spiders and jet bikes. I've been underwhelmed by my WK pretty consistently anyway, and my Warp Spiders always bring the heat. Plus, the idea behind the list is to be very anti-meta with a heavy infantry presence and the WK just doesn't fit.
Opponents list (roughly from memory)
3 Tzeench heralds
Fateweaver
4 x 11 pink horrors
Tzeench demon prince
~8 Screamers
I was pretty jazzed to see a psuedo scremerstar/demon factory. It's a bad matchup for this list, so a good test of exactly how it can perform in sub-optimal situations.
I'll highlight the important parts:
WK tar-pitted the Screamer star turn 1. Harlies charged in first turn, since they had turbod right in-front of the Harlies and I figured it'd give me free HnR movement into the backfield. Harlies charged again second turn, because I am rusty and decided to keep pounding away at an invincible unit that I had successfully locked down with the WK for no reason.
Third turn Harlies charged in again, but by this time I'd pulled my head out of my sphincter and declared a multi-assault with the plague bearers that had been summoned right beside them. Only the DJ went into the Screamers (to tie them into the bigger combat), everyone else into the plagues who lose all but 2. After combat resolution and mask, both units take massive losses to instability. Plagues are wiped out, screamers take 8 wounds.
Dark Reapers do ~ 5 wounds a turn to FMCs, quite nearly killing a Flying demon a turn. Unfortunately, 3 WS's and the guardians barely managed to eek out a single wound to mop up, and even then not consistently.
Takeaways: DRs are solid anti-air. S8 Ap3 skyfire is no joke. Had I brought my WSpiders, and gotten them a guide or two, the FMC's wouldn't have been as big an issue. Late game switched over to Heavy2 shots to clear pink horrors off an objective. Verdict: I really feel like DRs as an anti-meta spoiler are a great option. High Strength, low AP skyfire shooting that ignores jink is huge in the current meta. Bikes, Flyrants, WS's all are hard countered by the ignoring jink. Krak missles and 2xS5 Ap3 shots make them versatile enough to be useful against everything else as well. Unit of 6 in a starweaver is a good option to go with the foot presence feel of Harlies, or better yet sitting in back w/a shadowseer immune to ranged shooting while they clear high pt targets all game.
Cast of Players: Hard as tacks. Even after my moronic T2 charge back into the Screamers that saw ~half the troupers dead, 3 + Shadowseer/DJ/Farseer ravaged a unit a turn. Part of the dmg was due to winning combat + -2LD from mask eating up demons, but they had to win combat and survive long enough to get to the next combat for that to work. The high WS went quite a way in helping them survive in combat, ensuring that no more than half the attacks ever landed in the first place. Invis would have made them virtually indestructible, but when you're rolling against 20+ dice...
That said, it's not my first option for Harlies. While Crusader is nice, it doesn't begin to make up for run/charge. Run/Charge takes them from being standard foot slogging infantry that can be outmaneuvered, to a fast and deadly hammer.
Guardian blob- Meh. They didn't really do much of anything, but that was more my problem than theirs. The large blob of OS troops beg for bunched up objectives, and instead I spread them out as I'm used to with my Jet bike lists. Part of the strategy for this list is to force the opponent to focus on the 8pt guardians, and I let my opponent ignore them all game. Will need to get more games in before I pass judgement on their worthiness.
All in all, I was impressed how the list worked. Even in maybe the most sub-optimal setting the list held its own, even considering the psychic powers I was relying on to keep me safe were consistently shut down.
How hard was it to get your powers off against the demons? Were they able to shut down your who psychic phase or could they only stop one or two powers?
Had to be mysterious objective. Only the exarch can get Flakk missiles, sadly.
Looks like a good game. Eldar can hold their own against Daemons, but Harlequins definitely need their craftworld support.
Charging the screamers turn 1 sounds amazing! If only all daemon players would misplay like that... Glad to see the quins doing work though.
Rypher wrote: Had to be mysterious objective. Only the exarch can get Flakk missiles, sadly.
Looks like a good game. Eldar can hold their own against Daemons, but Harlequins definitely need their craftworld support. Charging the screamers turn 1 sounds amazing! If only all daemon players would misplay like that... Glad to see the quins doing work though.
*Edit* Mis read. Yes, Exarch only gets Skyfire. But Heavy 2 Starswarm twin linked = gravy.vs FMCs. Reason you don't see them often is because a 40+pt T3 1 wound model is begging to be killed. But as I said w/Harlies and other psychic support to protect them I think the ignoring jink mechanic makes them a great anti-meta spoiler. Honestly, I'd consider running 3 min squads of them to max out Exarchs. While the rest of the reapers are exorbitantly expensive, the Exarch w/fast shot is a steal. Maybe even just 3 in an imperial bunker w/a quad gun.
This was my opponents first time vs. Harlies, so he was basically looking to tie them up and keep them out of his backfield. Didn't realize they had HnR. I misplayed equally though: I didn't realize in the Adepticon FAQ you can't move over units w/HnR, so just sat where I was and charged instead of moving to his side/behind him to get a better HnR lane. It was one of the reasons I charged back in T2, w/the circuitous route I had to take to HnR out of combat I wasn't sure I could reach another unit.
Psychic powers weren't a huge issue tbh. I had rolled invis, so I used that to my advantage. I saved it for last and cast everything else first, so that he'd have to either blow all his dice on the smaller powers or let my Harlies be invulnerable for a turn. So while I only got of Invis once, the rest of my powers he had a hard time denying (if I got them off in the first place). As I alluded to earlier, my dice kinda took a crap on me during the game. Case in point: I failed a 3" charge with the Harlies, after fleet....
In the end, it's still grasping for straws in order to find an answer to FMCs for both Harlies and CWE though. They're a huge weakness, and with both flyrant spam and Flying circus being top tier lists you need an answer. Unfortunately CWE have anti-flyer options ranging from bad to horrid. It's one of the reasons I jumped so hard on DE as the optimal Harlie choice early on. Razorwings are amazing for the points, and being able to take up to 6 is just plain good. I like my CWE and I like having a psycher heavy army that is flexible to all comers, but the AA options in the book are ludicrously over priced.
Great write up Dash, thanks for the report. You mentioned that you were underwhelmed by WKs, did you change your opinion after this battle? They just seem like such a great compliment to Harlies because they definitely eat overwatch and can tarpit units for a turn while the harlies pile in to assault.
I never have much luck with Brightlance platforms with Guardians. Its one or two shots that never seem to do anything. I'm so used to volume of shooting with Eldar that they seem to let me down more than anything.
Vashones wrote: Great write up Dash, thanks for the report. You mentioned that you were underwhelmed by WKs, did you change your opinion after this battle? They just seem like such a great compliment to Harlies because they definitely eat overwatch and can tarpit units for a turn while the harlies pile in to assault.
I never have much luck with Brightlance platforms with Guardians. Its one or two shots that never seem to do anything. I'm so used to volume of shooting with Eldar that they seem to let me down more than anything.
Actually, even with the WK tying up the screamer-star all game I was still un-impressed. He got to shoot once all game, and missed with that as he normally does. The Screamers didn't even need the 2+ most of the time, as the WK rarely connected w/more than 2 attacks per turn. Same number of points in Warp Spiders would have given me hyper mobile S6 shooting that would have been removing whole pink horror squads a turn. In order to tie up the Screamer star I'd have switched tactics to just throw all my dice at Invis (saving one for perils) and used the harlies to tie them up. Might have even been able to use HnR to get him to expose the grimore herald to get a few harlies in btb w/him.
Guardian blob is mostly just to be a fearless block of objective secured. If the BL does something it's nice, but you really just want them hopping on objectives in your backfield and holding them. Their best function is forcing your opponent to either come after them w/a CC unit (allowing you to counter attack) or forcing your opponent to use long range shooting to take care of them (which will almost certainly be overkill). Either way, you win. Throw in shrouded on them from the Warlock and make sure you're in cover, and they become annoyingly resistant to ranged dmg. As I mentioned, I misplayed pretty badly in this game by spreading out objectives instead of clumping them where I could take advantage of the guardians. I'm used to playing a much more mobile jetbike army, and that habit came back and bit me pretty hard.
I'll be trying out this list for a while as I buy transports and such to run a mask, so hopefully I'll learn to use it a bit better. I think it's got some potential, but the Players formation is really limited w/out run/charge. I was a bit surprised just how often I really needed those extra 4 or so inches.
I'm still quite impressed with the wraithknight. It compliments the harlequins very well. I don't mind him not shooting at all if I can get him into combat with something that doesn't want to be there, such as screamers. Hitting on 3's against them is icing on the cake.
I had a fun game against a CSM list last night. Used Masque detachment plus an Eldar CAD. He conceded turn 3 when he only had 1 obliterator and a heldrake left, while only managing to kill a fire dragon, 3 harlequins, and the solitaire (who only had to make 4 saves the whole game, but rolled a 1,1,2,3 :wink: )
List
Masque
3x5 Troupes
2 kisses, 1 kiss on each Master. Warlord - Starmist raiment
2x dedicated Starweavers
Eldar
Farseer - Jetbike, Spear
Spiritseer - Falochu's Wing
2x3 Windrider jetbikes
1x5 Fire dragons - Exarch
Wraithknight
Revised the list after the game to ditch the level 1 seer and the exarch upgrade for another dedicated starweaver. I was quite happy with how it all performed. Dragons and the knight added the anti-tank I needed. Farseer and spiritseer made the skyweavers hilarious, especially being able to go 48" to put them where I needed them turns 1 & 2. I did get invisibility, but was more than happy with just having conceal on the unit.
Guardian blob is mostly just to be a fearless block of objective secured.
The only thing with Fearless in your list was the Wraith Knight.
Farseer w/Shard
Shadowseer w/Mask
Rypher wrote:I'm still quite impressed with the wraithknight. It compliments the harlequins very well. I don't mind him not shooting at all if I can get him into combat with something that doesn't want to be there, such as screamers. Hitting on 3's against them is icing on the cake.
I had a fun game against a CSM list last night. Used Masque detachment plus an Eldar CAD. He conceded turn 3 when he only had 1 obliterator and a heldrake left, while only managing to kill a fire dragon, 3 harlequins, and the solitaire (who only had to make 4 saves the whole game, but rolled a 1,1,2,3 :wink: )
List
Masque
3x5 Troupes
2 kisses, 1 kiss on each Master. Warlord - Starmist raiment
2x dedicated Starweavers
Eldar
Farseer - Jetbike, Spear
Spiritseer - Falochu's Wing
2x3 Windrider jetbikes
1x5 Fire dragons - Exarch
Wraithknight
Revised the list after the game to ditch the level 1 seer and the exarch upgrade for another dedicated starweaver. I was quite happy with how it all performed. Dragons and the knight added the anti-tank I needed. Farseer and spiritseer made the skyweavers hilarious, especially being able to go 48" to put them where I needed them turns 1 & 2. I did get invisibility, but was more than happy with just having conceal on the unit.
I like the idea of the Spirit Seer with Falochu. Still not sure I'd go a SS over a Farseer, but it at least makes it a question worth asking. My biggest problem with Spirit Seers has always been no access to jetbikes, and Falochu at least takes care of the mobility issue. Guaranteed Conceal makes the Jetbikes fairly durable with 2 wounds and, S5 Ap2 wrecks backfield units. Good idea with the wings, I'd written that relic off a long time ago.
Do you find that the list's rather diverse durability causes any problems? When mixing in Harlequins, are hard targets overpaying for survivability when you have so many more fragile targets around? Or are powers and other shenanigans keeping your otherwise-fragile units from being reasonable targets?
Rypher wrote: I'm still quite impressed with the wraithknight. It compliments the harlequins very well. I don't mind him not shooting at all if I can get him into combat with something that doesn't want to be there, such as screamers. Hitting on 3's against them is icing on the cake.
I had a fun game against a CSM list last night. Used Masque detachment plus an Eldar CAD. He conceded turn 3 when he only had 1 obliterator and a heldrake left, while only managing to kill a fire dragon, 3 harlequins, and the solitaire (who only had to make 4 saves the whole game, but rolled a 1,1,2,3 :wink: )
List
Masque
3x5 Troupes
2 kisses, 1 kiss on each Master. Warlord - Starmist raiment
2x dedicated Starweavers
Eldar
Farseer - Jetbike, Spear
Spiritseer - Falochu's Wing
2x3 Windrider jetbikes
1x5 Fire dragons - Exarch
Wraithknight
Revised the list after the game to ditch the level 1 seer and the exarch upgrade for another dedicated starweaver. I was quite happy with how it all performed. Dragons and the knight added the anti-tank I needed. Farseer and spiritseer made the skyweavers hilarious, especially being able to go 48" to put them where I needed them turns 1 & 2. I did get invisibility, but was more than happy with just having conceal on the unit.
I believe the Harlequins can only ever take one relic per army, so a mask or a starmist, but not both.
I had to look up Falochu's wing again, I don't think I have ever seen that used! Very clever way to get conceal on the bikes.
Vashones wrote: I must be suffering from rules reading incomprehension, I've read that thing like 20 times and thought it was one per army!
Never mind, nothing to see here folks...
Better to figure it out here than at a tournament.
I have been meaning to ask you guys, how are you using voidweavers? This unit is so awkward to me. Short range, and wants to be facing different units to maximize damage output. The best I can figure is to skim it center board and turn it into a shuriken sprinkler.
The interesting fire arcs get even more interesting in a squadron as the rear weapon has permission to fire at a different target - so a squadron of 3 can actually engage 4 targets assuming the fire arcs requirement is met
Massaen wrote: The interesting fire arcs get even more interesting in a squadron as the rear weapon has permission to fire at a different target - so a squadron of 3 can actually engage 4 targets assuming the fire arcs requirement is met
Hadn't thought of that, if they are all aiming at the same target (say a rhino) then the way they are pivoted would increase the odds of them having a rear arc facing another unit. Personally, I see it as a way to deal with deep strike units arriving behind them, even if I turn my main gun at them, I can still fire something at my original target.
Actually, that makes them more adept at dealing with outflankers and drop pod lists. Enemy units coming up behind them don't cause them to lose any efficiency. It actually makes them better at their job!
As mentioned in my previous list, I'm happy with how it all worked. It's not the end all be all in terms of competitiveness, but it gets the job done.
I would be fine facing flyrants the more I think about it. Deploying further back, staying in the starweavers, and 2+ jink skyweavers+seers means the flyrants can kill 1-2 unit a turn, but not more than that.
The big thing I find is paying for durability from the Eldar codex, something I'm quite happy to do. The list as a whole is incredibly mobile. I only wish I could fit it as a Revenge formation instead for rerolling 1's on the Solitaire & Warlord, but it's not that big of an issue.
Bharring wrote: Do you find that the list's rather diverse durability causes any problems? When mixing in Harlequins, are hard targets overpaying for survivability when you have so many more fragile targets around? Or are powers and other shenanigans keeping your otherwise-fragile units from being reasonable targets?
It depends on how you play it. If you make a static gunline w/Harlies rushing forwards, then your opponent is going to just kill the expensive Harlies first and then deal with guns. The whole point of having durable units mixed in with Harlies (or the theory anyway) is to overplay their durability in order to shift pressure off the Harlies. By being overaggressive with a durable unit (WG, Grotesques, w/e) and standoffish with your Harlies, you can force your opponents attention onto the durable unit for one turn. And really, that's all you need is one turn. After that a mask/revenge detachment should be in charge range, and at that point it's to late to deal with them.
Harlies are very much a finess codex, and you have to have a plan for your army when you build it. Run/Charge + ignoring cover is your bread and butter and it will determine if you get wiped out or win. If you can't use those rules well, you won't do well with Harlies. If you can figure out how to keep your vulnerable space clowns behind/in cover till a charge opens up you'll muderlate whatever you hit. One or two overaggressive units with the durability to take the heat can help to that end by being slightly easier targets than the Clowns on turn one. I think WG are great in this role, as even 1 WG is still a huge AT threat that needs to be dealt with, and it's likely you'll get 1-2 in even min sized squads to survive a turn.
It's far from the only way to deal get Harlies there though. You could always go the opposite route and DS in a bunch of cheapo wyches with them and just overload your opponents ability to deal with all the CC threats. Either way is a valid strat.
So, I have a 1200 point game against ultramarines on Saturday. I am running path of heroes formation alongside the masque detachment.
Troupe one: storied sword, one each caress and embrace and 2x kiss
Troupe two: caress and crescendo on the master, one each caress and embrace, two kiss
Troupe three: neuro disruptor on the master
Star weavers with zephyrglaive and haywire cannon on both
Star weaver
Void weaver with prism cannon
Shadowseer (phantasmancy)
Shadowseer ml2 (phantasmancy)
2x death jesters
Way of heroes: solitaire with haywire grenades, death jester, and shadowseer with mask of secrets(telepathy)
The death jesters and the ml2 seer go with troupe 3
Other shadowseer runs with troupe one with the warlord the void weaver lurks nearby to give support should the opponent try and gang up on them
Troupe 2 goes in the starweaver
The skyweavers run interference for the heroes, help clean up whatever the solitaire takes on. With three haywire shots between them, most vehicles are popped and if they combat squad I don't have to worry about one of them gunning me down after I kill the other in melee.
With the shadowseers spread out I should be pinning things all over the place, and my opponent likes to run terminators and scouts in addition to his tactical. The death jesters should be able to take the latter down easily. The rest of the troupe is there to be ablative wounds for the shooters and the shadowseer.
I'm not a fan of the Solitaire with haywire grenades. He already has a caress and will do more damage with that than a grenade, statistically. Against weaker vehicles (AV10 - 12), his Kiss and possibly his normal strength 4 attacks can also glance them out without sacrificing all of his attacks for a single grenade that still could miss.
With the Heroes' Path formation, you give up Rising Crescendo, which is a huge boon to all harlequin based detachments. I personally am fine with this, but I have Eldar in my lists instead of pure quins. With all the units you are taking already, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to make the whole troupe a Revenge formation, would it? You'll gain Rising Crescendo on the DJ/SS/Solitaire as well as the durability boost from rerolling 1's for invulnerable saves. You might have to play with points to get the single star weaver back, as you'll need an extra skyweaver unit, but they're solid for their points.
It sounds like each Shadowseer is being attached to a squad in your previous list. Heroes' Path shadowseer can't join a squad, nor can the Death jester. The mask of secrets is a waste on her, as you'll lose the fearless benefit it also gives the unit (typically, stick her in the warlord's unit).
Lastly, I'm not a fan of kitting out all of the units with max weapons. Why not have one or two naked players to soak up the inevitable wounds from shooting or overwatch? It won't hurt as bad to lose a 15 point model instead of a 20 or 23 point one and it won't diminish the damage output of the squad as badly as losing an embrace or kiss would.
Otherwise, your tactics seem quite solid. Best of luck!
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: So, I have a 1200 point game against ultramarines on Saturday. I am running path of heroes formation alongside the masque detachment. Troupe one: storied sword, one each caress and embrace and 2x kiss Troupe two: caress and crescendo on the master, one each caress and embrace, two kiss Troupe three: neuro disruptor on the master Star weavers with zephyrglaive and haywire cannon on both Star weaver Void weaver with prism cannon Shadowseer (phantasmancy) Shadowseer ml2 (phantasmancy) 2x death jesters
Way of heroes: solitaire with haywire grenades, death jester, and shadowseer with mask of secrets(telepathy)
The death jesters and the ml2 seer go with troupe 3 Other shadowseer runs with troupe one with the warlord the void weaver lurks nearby to give support should the opponent try and gang up on them Troupe 2 goes in the starweaver The skyweavers run interference for the heroes, help clean up whatever the solitaire takes on. With three haywire shots between them, most vehicles are popped and if they combat squad I don't have to worry about one of them gunning me down after I kill the other in melee.
With the shadowseers spread out I should be pinning things all over the place, and my opponent likes to run terminators and scouts in addition to his tactical. The death jesters should be able to take the latter down easily. The rest of the troupe is there to be ablative wounds for the shooters and the shadowseer.
What do you think?
No need to run Haywire on solitaires honestly. Unless you really feel you need to throw the grenade before charging to get that extra HP. Solitaire come stock with a caress and given his high # of attacks he'll do a minimum of one HP in CC already, 2 on blitz.
Storied sword is pretty overpriced for what it does. I'd much rather give the warlord TM a kiss and starmist rainment. Also, Harlies don't really have ablative wounds. 15 ppm is WAY to high a price to be paying for a meat shield, your harlies gotta earn their keep. Skyweavers are pretty over priced for what they do. 2 models are eating up 10% of your list.
One or two large troupes on foot aren't bad ideas, as veil is pretty reliable especially with all the warp charges you have. I'd put Mask on one of the Shadowseers in the troupes though, gives you a bit better use out of fearless. Also, I might be doing my math wrong but I think you're a bit over 1200.
Alt list for your consideration: Mask Troupe- 5 x 5 kisses Troupe- 5 x 5 kisses Troupe- 9 x 8 caresses x1 kiss TM w/Starmist Rainment
Starweaver Starweaver
DJ Shadowseers ML2 w/Mask + Haywire Shadowseer
Voidweaver
Heroes Solitaire DJ Shadowseer
total: 1199
2 kiss squads in Starweavers zoom up flanks, Large caress squad walks up center escorted by Shadowseers. Lone DJ can go with a squad in a starweaver to give you an extra wound when it blows up, then force a failed morale to make the second turn charge easy. Voidweaver.....probably blows up w/out doing much, but what you gonna do. That Caress squad can also reliably take out a IK, so your AT should be well covered. Starmist > Storied sword by a mile. S5 Ap3 is pretty weak, even master crafted. 3++ to soak up overwatch on the charge? Yes, please.
*Edit* Mostly ninjad by Rypher. He and I disagree about unit kits (all kisses all the time baby), but otherwise pretty much same suggestions. I almost suggested Revenge as well, but barebones it only leaves 130 points for kisses/mask/ML2 etc, and that's with no Starweavers for transport. 1200 is just to small a points value to make it work I think. 1300+ is about as low as I'd go for Revenge.
I know they can't join, they are there for msu purposes, the haywire grenade on the solitaire iz there to give him a ranged attack to take advantage of bs9 and help mitigate the loss of rising crescendo. I know I am wasting the mask on the infiltrating seer, but running telepathy for shriek combined with the infiltrated death jester will punish him if he tries to keep backfield missile launcher tactical/ or devastators. Killing one shouldn't be that hard, so they'll flee and I'll pin more efectivly with the halucinagen grenades from the seer. I use the heroes to draw fire, and 2+ cover on the solitary most of the time is about the same as 3+ reroll ones.
I am running what I have built and WYSIWYG is important to me. If I dropped things from the troupes, I would maybe get two extra bodies. I'd rather give my players more killing potential, personally.
And thanks! He's one of my tougher opponents, and a really good dude to play with. Should be a blast!
Edit: I am hoping to not lose anyone on the way in, but the 15 point bodies are the cheapest bodies I have. Also, o was 14 points over, so power sword and dropping the haywire grenades. I want to be WYSIWYG, and don't have most of the options you listed yet.
So I keep going back and forth on weapon options. If you are taking three troupes should you do one kiss, one embrace and one caress? I believe you should always take at least one unit of caresses for dealing with anti-tank. As for kisses vs embraces I am on the fence. d3 automatic hits is a lot. Assuming the average is 2 HoW hits per player 5 harlequins on the charge will kill 2.77 marines with HoW and 2.22 marines with regular attacks, for a total of about 5 marines dead. The kiss troupe with kill 2.77 marines with kisses but only 1.66 marines with regular attacks, for a total of about 4.5 marines killed. So the embraces should actually be better against marines. Embraces do even better as armor saves get worst. Kisses only seem to be better against sv2+ units and multiple wound units if you get the instance death. However, if you for some reason do not get that charge with your embrace troupe, they are pretty dead in the water, they also do significantly worst in subsequent rounds of combat.
Second question, if you are taking the masque detachment and want to take a solitaire is it worth adding the heros path formation for steal, shroud, and infiltrate or are the lone shadow seer and death jester too much of a tax?
I posted this in the Battle Reports section but thought it would be relevant here -
1750 Pure Harlequins vs Serpent Spam Eldar!
The goal – how do harlequins go as a standalone force against a very solid tournament list…
Eldar - CAD Farseer, Jet Bike, Singing Spear, Mantle of the Laughing God, Spirit Stone of Anath’lan (Warlord Trait – stealth for 1 turn to units within 12”) – Powers – Prescience, Guide, Summoning
4x5 Dire Avengers, Wave Serpent w TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon
Crimson Hunter
2 Wraith Knights, heavy wraith cannons
Officio Assassinorium
1 Vindicare Assassin
1745 total
I know the vindicare is less than perfect but he was on my shelf and my opponent went – what the hell, I will use him! The rest of the list is essentially a very solid serpent spam build. The vindicare would have been better served as a unit of warp spiders I think but in the end – this is still very solid for a take all comers list.
VS
Harlequin Formation - Cegorach's Revenge
Solitaire
3 Death Jesters
3 Shadow Seers, all lvl 2, 1 mask of secrets (1 Telepathy, 1 Sanctic, 1 Phantasm) – (Mental Fortitude, Shrouding, Psychic Shriek / Banishment, Purge Soul, Vortex of Doom / Peal of Discord, Laugh of Sorrows, Veil of Tears) – all join the large troupe
Troupe – 5 Players (3 Kiss, 1 caress, 1 embrace), troupe master with power sword, haywire grenades, Sky weaver Transport
Troupe – 5 Players (3 Kiss, 1 caress, 1 embrace), troupe master with power sword, haywire grenades, Sky weaver Transport
Troupe – 8 Players (4 Kiss, 2 caress, 2 embrace), troupe master with power sword, haywire grenades, Sky weaver Transport (warlord trait – Twisted Encore from DARK)
2x2 Sky Weavers with Haywire Cannon, Zephyr glaive
2 Void Weavers, Haywire Cannons
1747 total
I was really interested to see if the reroll 1’s was worth the cost of the formation tax – see the final thoughts at the bottom of this to see what I think!
Hammer and Anvil, Big Guns Never Tire (3 Objectives)
Harlequins choose table edge first, deploy first, go first (eldar fail to seize)
Turn 1
The harlequins are lined up across the very front of their deployment zone. The 3 Death Jesters advance into a ruin as a single unit – this would come to haunt me in a moment... The whole battle line moves up, runs or turbo boosts. All the eldar are set back in their deployment zone and out of range for the harlequin support weapons. The shadow seers manage shrouding and veil but only had 7 dice to work with.
The eldar surge forwards. The psychic phase starts and a unit of 10 blood letters is summoned near my large troupe. With that over – they start shooting. The vindicare fails to wound with his shield breaker on one of my shadow seers and the 2 wraith knights fluff their attacks thanks to mirage launchers. The 4 serpents however are much worse… I loose 1 jet bike to the first serpent (again hooray mirage launchers plus reroll 1’s!) but then loose a star weaver (carrying a troupe of 6) which is then wiped out by the third serpent. The last targets my unit of 3 DJ in the ruins and promptly ID’s them all with the serpent shield! Fail! One of the WK charges my solitaire while the other fails a 6” charge into the other starweaver carrying another troupe. The solitaire wounds the WK once with his caress and then H&R away to close the distance to the farseer.
Eldar KP – First Blood, 5 KP (3 DJ, Star Weaver, Troupe)
Harlequin KP – Nothing!
Turn 2
The harlequins line up multiple options this turn. The 6 model troupe disembarks and lines up a charge on 1 wraith knight. The large troupe moves up to threaten the second WK and the summoned blood letters. The 3 sky weavers and void weavers move to all get shots on 2 of the wave serpents who have been left almost touching side by side. The remaining to star weavers line up on the wraith knight near the large troupe but have range and LOS to the daemons as well. The solitaire blitz attacks, rolls an 8” followed by a 6” run in the shooting phase to be 1 inch away from the farseer. In the psychic phase, I again got VoT on the big troupe. I also managed shriek on the WK closest (at -2 LD thanks to the mask) but he rolls a 7 on 3d6 and lives. I have 5 dice left pop peal of discord which does nothing. 3 dice left and I get off laugh of sorrows. He fails the first test by 1 and then the second by 3! Its on 1 wound! In the shooting phase, the 2 star weavers finish the WK off and kill a blood letter as well. The 5 haywire templates manage a single hull point on 1 WS after 4 scatters in excess of 5 inches each time! The 5th scattered as well, he failed to jink and I rolled a 2… The small troupe charges into the WK and promptly roll a 6 for one of the kiss of death to wound rolls, slaying it outright. The large troupe charges the 9 strong blood letters and between the troupe master and 3 shadow seers, wipe out the unit for no loss. The Solitaire charges into the farseer and reduces him to a fine red paste smeared across his jet bike.
The eldar retaliation is brutal. 2 of the serpents move up to within 8 inches of the large troupe while the other 2 serpents move to engage the small troupe and void weavers. The Crimson hunter does not arrive. The large troupe takes a hammering – I loose the entire unit to the 2 serpents save for the 3 shadow seers in the back of the unit after the consolidation move. I also loose the other troupe to the other 2 serpents despite some very lucky reroll 1 situations. The vindicare strips a hull point from a void weaver – shaking it.
Eldar KP – First Blood, slay the warlord, 7 KP (3 DJ, Star Weaver, 3x Troupe)
Harlequin KP – slay the warlord, 4KP (farseer, 2 WK, blood letters)
Turn 3
The harlequins are all but spent. The solitaire bounds out to get a charge on 1 of the serpents while the 3 shadow seers (now apart enough to be 3 units) line up on the other. The 2 star weavers stay central to the table with the aim to kill the vindicare. The void weavers and sky weavers line up at the other 2 serpents. In the psychic phase I managed to get off shrouding but fail vortex. Shooting sees me kill the vindicare and the 2 serpents engaged with 4 haywire cannons both damaged to 1 and 2 HP respectively – thanks to some ludicrous scatters again. The solitaire charges into the first serpent and wrecks it hard with 2 auto glance and then a 6 from his other hits. The 3 shadow seers absolutely destroy the other with a mass of S6 attacks. The avengers pile out.
The Eldar move the avengers around their wrecks to draw LOS on the seers. The 2 remaining serpents move, 1 to drop avengers out to target the bikes while the other moves and then goes flat out towards the objective in my deployment zone. The crimson hunter turns up and lines up on the void weavers. The 2 avenger units closest to the shadow seers kill 1 each leaving me with just the telepath alive. The bikes survive the other 5 avengers. The sole remaining serpent who can fire kills 2 of the sky weavers with ease. The crimson hunter does nothing but make the void weavers jink.
Eldar KP – First Blood, slay the warlord, 10 KP (3 DJ, 2 SS, 1 sky weavers, 1 Star Weaver, 3x Troupe)
Harlequin KP – slay the warlord, 7KP (1 farseer, 2 WK, 1 blood letters, 1 vindicare, 2 wave serpents)
Turn 4
The solitaire moves across the board looking to kill the next wave serpent while the 2 void weavers get a rare treat of being able to fire on the crimson hunter in the air and the rear gun firing at the rear armour of the fleeing serpent. The 2 star weavers move to the centre of the board in an effort to deny the CH space to move. The remaining sky weaver lines up a shot on the fleeing serpent. The remaining shadow seer casts psychic shriek and wipes out an avenger unit. He also fires his grenade launcher at the other unit but fails to do anything. The 2 star weavers miss the CH. The remaining sky weaver again scatters off the serpent and the 2 void weavers fail to do anything thanks to snap shots from jinking. The only solid part of the turn is again the solitaire manages a charge on a serpent but he fails this turn and leaves it on 1 HP. The seer charges the avengers and we both fail to do anything.
The eldar are now running out of steam as well but still in the fight. The 5 avengers near my shadow seer move up onto the closest objective and fire on him but only manage 1 wound after rerolls to my saves. The CH moves across the board thanks to vector dancer and shakes one of the star weavers. The almost dead wave serpent moves up to the back objective in my deployment zone, disembarks the 5 avengers then lines up on the void weavers. He kills one of them and the other is on 1 HP and snap shots only. The wounded serpent near the solitaire moves, disembarks the avengers close to the centre objective. They fail to harm the sky weavers but will be close enough next turn to contest the objective. The solitaire survives the serpents shooting with ease
Eldar KP – First Blood, slay the warlord, 10 KP (3 DJ, 2 SS, 1 sky weavers, 1 Star Weaver, 3x Troupe)
Harlequin KP – slay the warlord, 8KP (1 farseer, 2 WK, 1 blood letters, 1 vindicare, 2 wave serpents, 1 dire avengers)
Turn 5
The solitaire moves to finish off the serpent. The sole remaining void weaver manages a lucky 6 on the remaining serpent which is failed to jink and see’s it wrecked. The 2 star weavers target the CH and manage a pen which stuns it. The sole remaining sky weaver is left out of position as I had it lined up to support the void weaver. In the assault phase I forget to move the sky weaver (BOO!) while the solitaire kills the last serpent on 1 HP. The shadow seer fails in a massive way after failing to get any powers off he dies to over watch from the avengers he declares he will charge!
The eldar move to control objectives – he only had 3 avenger units left on the table and they move onto all 3 objectives with onl the central one being contested by my star weavers but even they he is ObSec and I am not. His crimson hunter, now stunned, moves 18” forward and is wrecked as he ends his move on my star weavers! The scatter does not harm anything as the plane crashes. On a whim, he fires just 3 dire avengers (all that is in range) at the solitaire. He hits with 4 of his 6 shots and wounds with all 4. 3++, rerolling 1’s – easy I think… I literally roll 2 on all 4 dice and the solitaire dies.
Eldar KP – First Blood, slay the warlord, 11 KP (3 DJ, 2 SS, 1 sky weavers, 1 Star Weaver, 3x Troupe, 1 solitaire)
Harlequin KP – slay the warlord, 11KP (1 farseer, 2 WK, 1 blood letters, 1 vindicare, 4 wave serpents, 1 dire avengers, 1 crimson hunter)
We roll to see if the game goes on. If It does, I think I have a good shot at pushing it to a draw at the least. I can target the avengers in my deployment zone with the void weaver and sky weaver (who is close enough to charge in turn 6) while the 2 star weavers (along with the rear gun on the void weaver) can kill at least 1 unit of avengers which should give me a 2-1 on objectives, deny him line breaker (I cant get line breaker myself as I would be out of position on objectives) and give me the win. Even going on to turn 7 at that point would see me win it.
Re roll for the game to end… a 2. Game over. Eldar win.
FINAL SCORE
Eldar – Line Breaker, First Blood, slay the warlord, 11 KP (3 DJ, 2 SS, 1 sky weavers, 1 Star Weaver, 3x Troupe, 1 solitaire), 3 Objectives
Harlequin KP – slay the warlord, 11KP (1 farseer, 2 WK, 1 blood letters, 1 vindicare, 4 wave serpents, 1 dire avengers, 1 crimson hunter)
Thoughts…
This was A LOT closer than I first expected. We joked at deployment he would table me by turn 3 and after turn 1 it looked possible. I had used my mirage launchers but almost everything those serpents pointed at died. Killing the 2 WK in 1 turn came as a shock to him – he expected to lose one to the large troupe on the charge but when it all but died to the psychic powers he knew he had ever extended his attack. The death of the other was a nice surprise and while it could not be done reliably, even not killing it would potentially have seen me kill it in his turn and then free to engage the serpents nearby. I actually hurt myself by killing it outright! The massive brain fart I had with the DJ just highlights how much you have to think with this army – losing all 3 to a single serpent shield was just bad play on my part. The solitaire was a machine, killing his way through anything I put in front of him. Losing him on the last turn to a poor dice roll sucked but could not be helped. The shadow seers are amazing – I deliberately went with all 3 using different disciplines to see what I would combo. Had I gotten sanctuary, hammer hand, invisibility or any of the other very solid powers available – that unit could have been all but unkillable. As it was, I got mediocre powers and saw average returns. They are amazing in combat though and they will be very useful against low AV targets like the rear armour on transports! The sky weavers never saw combat so the zephyr glaives were wasted and the haywire scatters were just awful. I think I would run them with just the haywire in future. The sky weavers are fantastic – everything I love about running venoms with the ability to engage light armour. The void weavers – they did ok. I always looked at the haywire cannon as opportunity and treated them as sky weavers with unusual fire arcs and that seemed to be ok. I would not bother wasting points on upgrading them as I think (barring my terrible scatters) the haywire is more reliable.
Re Roll 1’s – is it worth it? I am not sure… I did get good use out of it and it did save me a bunch – especially when I used the mirage launchers turn 1. The solitaire is also a machine – he shrugged off a wave serpent worth of fire like it was nothing! Without it he would have been dead!
I need to get more games with the harlequins before I make up my mind on the best config but I think the army can have legs as a standalone. It’s even more unforgiving than the dark eldar and even more surgical in its application on the table than them as well. I have some pics of the game (unfortunately using my dark eldar as stand ins for the vehicles and bikes) if anyone is interested.
I think the best place for the DJ is actually with a cheap SS using veil of tears as a single unit. The VoT is the best range for the DJ to operate at and mitigates a lot of the issues they will have - as they want to hang back while the troupes charge.
The witch fires the SS has access too also synergise well with the range.
In my game they did nothing as I stuffed up big time...
So I have been running my Harlequins as a masque for an escalation league I've been in, and a couple days ago I tried ditching the Ceggy's Revenge formation for 2x CoP formations and 1x Falchu. I took the CoPs with 8x clowns plus characters and put them in raiders along with 2 venoms full of kabalites.
The numbers made a HUGE difference IMO for the troupes and the Skyweavers and even the Crapweaver was 100% better with the rerollable Jink just because my opponent didn't want to shoot it after the first time they evaded 6 wounds without a scratch.
Great report. This really highlights two points, 1) solitaire is a beast and 2) death jesters are an expensive easy to obtain kill point. When I first say the solitaire I was not impressed and thought there was no way he would ever be worth taking. But being only one model with lots of movement means he can easily hide behind walls or statues or pillars or whatever. When he touches a unit in close combat that unit disappears. He killed a farseer on a bike, making back most of his 145 points, then he goes on to kill two wave serpents. The death jesters were played wrong this game, no doubt about that. But even if they were played perfectly, what would they have done? They may have put one or two glances on a wave serpent. They might have done a wound to the WK, but he is fearless so no running. They would not have been able to touch the farseer. Really the game went no different with them as it would without which is a lot to say about 60pt models. Against other armies they are still not that great. 3 24'' s6 shots for 60pts is just pathetic. You are lucky to actually score a wound against most units and even if you do kill a model you have to cross your fingers they will fail the moral test. I would much rather take more shadow seers.
lambsandlions wrote: The death jesters were played wrong this game, no doubt about that. But even if they were played perfectly, what would they have done? They may have put one or two glances on a wave serpent. They might have done a wound to the WK, but he is fearless so no running. They would not have been able to touch the farseer. Really the game went no different with them as it would without which is a lot to say about 60pt models. Against other armies they are still not that great. 3 24'' s6 shots for 60pts is just pathetic. You are lucky to actually score a wound against most units and even if you do kill a model you have to cross your fingers they will fail the moral test. I would much rather take more shadow seers.
While I haven't played a game, this is my perspective after reading the codex.
Alluding to my previous question... What does everyone else think?
The death jesters have done SIGNIFICANT work for me. Against anything with a 4+ save, you will almost certainly cause a wound. Even shooting marines with two of them you will be causing an unsaved wound more than likely. A leadership 6 test is a pretty hard one to pass, and if you have other leadership debuff abilities scattered around those units will never want to be within 2 feet of the jesters, or 8 inches of ANY board edge. The death jester is best used as a board control piece against basic troops and he is good at that.
Last game I ran him in, he was infiltrated, killed one Necron immortal, and got me first blood. Losing 5 immortals because you lost one immortal due to shooting is not something you can really prepare for.
The only time I would take death jesters is in path of heros or cast of player where you are forced to take them. The revenge formation and the masque detachment are so similar that I would always take the masque detachment as 3 death jesters and skyweavers are just too large of a tax.
As an example to what I said. If he had singled out the 3 jesters, either the opponent would have wasted shots killing them all, or ignored them. If he had ignored them, then only one more waveserpent would have fired at something else. What lost him the match was objective secured, toughness 3 4+ save bodies on objectives/ scoring line breaker. Death jesters would have pushed them all over the map, they would have averaged a wound on the knights a turn, and could have put more rounds into the flyer if the need arose. That is a lot of options for 180 points, and anything besides the min squads of avengers would have been wasting points.
I disagree on both Cegrevenge and the DJ. It is extremely easy to fail a morale test on a 6 or lower and the proper positioning of the Mask of Secrets will enable you to lower even LD10 infantry down into the danger zone. Despite people's apparent disdain for the skyweavers I've had nothing but success with shuriken and bola squads of three ( I've always brought blaster scourges for anti-heavy tank so haywire hasn't been a concern for me)
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: The death jesters have done SIGNIFICANT work for me. Against anything with a 4+ save, you will almost certainly cause a wound. Even shooting marines with two of them you will be causing an unsaved wound more than likely. A leadership 6 test is a pretty hard one to pass, and if you have other leadership debuff abilities scattered around those units will never want to be within 2 feet of the jesters, or 8 inches of ANY board edge. The death jester is best used as a board control piece against basic troops and he is good at that.
Last game I ran him in, he was infiltrated, killed one Necron immortal, and got me first blood. Losing 5 immortals because you lost one immortal due to shooting is not something you can really prepare for.
The problem I have with death jesters is the inconsistency. When they work, they will wipe out whole units at a time and seem amazing. But in most cases I think their shooting is ineffective for their points. Going back the the immortals. 5 immortals are 85 points and have t4, ld10 and sv3+ reanimation, you have are looking at doing an average of .46 wounds to them in shooting, so about half the time you will get a wound. If you get that wound their ld drops to 8 giving you a 27% chance for them to fail their leadership. This results in about a 1 in 8 chance that your death jester will cause them to flee, which is not very good odds. Now most necron lists are running minimal troops and loading up on spyders, scarabs and wraiths. All of which are fearless.
My point is, that the death jester is far too niche and situational. Don't get me wrong, I think that they could be a load of fun to play in a friendly game and they make huge swings that are fun to retell but they are not going to pull their weight the majority of the time.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: The death jesters have done SIGNIFICANT work for me. Against anything with a 4+ save, you will almost certainly cause a wound. Even shooting marines with two of them you will be causing an unsaved wound more than likely. A leadership 6 test is a pretty hard one to pass, and if you have other leadership debuff abilities scattered around those units will never want to be within 2 feet of the jesters, or 8 inches of ANY board edge. The death jester is best used as a board control piece against basic troops and he is good at that.
Last game I ran him in, he was infiltrated, killed one Necron immortal, and got me first blood. Losing 5 immortals because you lost one immortal due to shooting is not something you can really prepare for.
The problem I have with death jesters is the inconsistency. When they work, they will wipe out whole units at a time and seem amazing. But in most cases I think their shooting is ineffective for their points. Going back the the immortals. 5 immortals are 85 points and have t4, ld10 and sv3+ reanimation, you have are looking at doing an average of .46 wounds to them in shooting, so about half the time you will get a wound. If you get that wound their ld drops to 8 giving you a 27% chance for them to fail their leadership. This results in about a 1 in 8 chance that your death jester will cause them to flee, which is not very good odds. Now most necron lists are running minimal troops and loading up on spyders, scarabs and wraiths. All of which are fearless.
My point is, that the death jester is far too niche and situational. Don't get me wrong, I think that they could be a load of fun to play in a friendly game and they make huge swings that are fun to retell but they are not going to pull their weight the majority of the time.
That's why, if I wanted that unit of immortals to flee, I'd position a Nask of Secrets and fire two DJs at it.
Also, the necrons are one of the worst possible matchups for us. For the reasons you stated. But, you hit marines with him, or astra militarum, you will see dividends paid. They are situational, but they are also only 60 points...
lambsandlions wrote:The only time I would take death jesters is in path of heros or cast of player where you are forced to take them. The revenge formation and the masque detachment are so similar that I would always take the masque detachment as 3 death jesters and skyweavers are just too large of a tax.
Q.
F.
T.
DJ's just aren't consistent enough for my tastes. Shadowseers on the other hand bring a warpcharge, fleshbane S6 attacks, and guaranteed veil. If I've got a choice, it's Shadowseers every time. Since I've got a DJ as I've been running Cast of Players, I'll stick him in a shooty unit if I have one. But I won't be taking more than one.
The biggest benefit for DJ's is that their ability works no matter the size of their target! They can run a 20 man blob of Necron warriors with the same chance they would a 10 man.
The meta right now is beyond serpent spam, your biggest competitors are extreme msu. The death jester is going to be the one you use to push jetbikes off of objectives, make scouts snapshot their sniper rifles, and whittle down lictors.
We have, in my opinion, the best army at taking these threats out, and has been shown, we actually can compete with eldar netlist level power on the table top. Death jesters have a definite role to play in that (get it, it's a little pun, kind of lame, but it's there)
DJ's just aren't consistent enough for my tastes. Shadowseers on the other hand bring a warpcharge, fleshbane S6 attacks, and guaranteed veil. If I've got a choice, it's Shadowseers every time. Since I've got a DJ as I've been running Cast of Players, I'll stick him in a shooty unit if I have one. But I won't be taking more than one.
When I first saw the shadowseer figured he was a psycker and wouldn't be much help in combat. Then you start to realize he has 5 attacks on the charge, they are s6 for wrecking vehicles and they are flesh bane for ruining monstrous creatures. Concussive is a bit of a joke considering harlequins are already faster than 90% of unites, so it only effects things with I6. But shadowseers are the reason kiss harlequins can wreck transports.
I think the main problem with DJs are that their is no real unit that wants them. We don't play gunline nor do our light and dark brethren. The closest thing you will find is a unit of dark reapers to put him in but his range is half of theirs. He just doesn't have a home.
Thanks for the pix! The death jesters would have done some serious damage in the later rounds if you had hidden them out of sight, no doubt in my mind.
I'm actually debating on running them as single model units in my game against the ultramarines. You are correct in that they don't really have a home in most units, so why try and shoehorn them in!
When I start adding in the corsairs, the jesters will be added to their basic troop units ( they start with las blasters like swooping hawks, you can fit 6 in their dedicated transport falcons, and can equip their own shuriken cannon) so they will actually bring some synergy to those units.
DJ's just aren't consistent enough for my tastes. Shadowseers on the other hand bring a warpcharge, fleshbane S6 attacks, and guaranteed veil. If I've got a choice, it's Shadowseers every time. Since I've got a DJ as I've been running Cast of Players, I'll stick him in a shooty unit if I have one. But I won't be taking more than one.
When I first saw the shadowseer figured he was a psycker and wouldn't be much help in combat. Then you start to realize he has 5 attacks on the charge, they are s6 for wrecking vehicles and they are flesh bane for ruining monstrous creatures. Concussive is a bit of a joke considering harlequins are already faster than 90% of unites, so it only effects things with I6. But shadowseers are the reason kiss harlequins can wreck transports.
I think the main problem with DJs are that their is no real unit that wants them. We don't play gunline nor do our light and dark brethren. The closest thing you will find is a unit of dark reapers to put him in but his range is half of theirs. He just doesn't have a home.
I think DJs have a place in DE armies. Either run them in a raider w/warriors, beasts or wyches. Warriors is point-click additional shooting, with the added benefit of moving your enemy periodically. Wyches use them to make a long charge shorter. Beasts same usage as wyches.
One of the biggest boons to DE that Harlies bring is sprinkling in HnR, and DJs do it fairly cheaply while also helping make your charges shorter. Still though, Shadowseers bring HnR too on top of protection and do it for the same price point. Other than the warriors, SS goes with the units above just as well and possibly better. I'd be surprised if SS+beast star isn't more of a thing in the near future: 12" movement +Veil means they can't even be shot at til they're well w/in charge range. Only problem is that they compete w/Razorwings for a FA slot. But then again, you do have 6 of those
But...the beasts do not make the Shadowseer move 12" do they??
No, DJs are not optimal and the only reSon to take them is when they are required. The question is, is the reroll from Cegrevenge worth it when without it you could have up to 6 Shadowseers? I say yes it is, if they are used intelligently.
Remember a couple tools:
1) leaving one in a Starweaver after the troupe has exited. Allows him to continue doing his work and being mobile and once the troupe is midfield the Starweaver is more a risk than a benefit for them.
2) where is your mask of secrets? Positioning the MOS can lead to much better LD test results
3) don't forget precision shooting-especially against sergeants! Remove the guy giving that squad LD8 instead of 7.
4) DJs lacking a good target can hide out of LOS and wait until the later game turns when that will become more useful for clearing obsc infantry off objectives.
5) a DJ paired with a SS particularly one who rolled good on Phantasmancy is a potent combo since that gives them the threat to take out a unit he had caused to flee towards them in cc, SS can bolster their defenses with many of the powers, SS can pick off sergeant types with Mirror of Minds and SS can run in the shooting phase to bring up Starmist Raiment or position for Mask of Secrets.
Except for the reasons I mentioned taking them for, there is no reason to take death jesters. The game is full of min sized scoring units claiming maelstrom style objectives and three death jesters roaming free are the perfect answer to that you don't have to kill them to get them out of position, the death jester just need to kill one.
If three shoot their shrieker amo at a conscript blob let's say, that blast puts a world of hurt on them, if you happen to get a 6 to hit, there goes a priest, plus about 3 of his buddies. Dealing with min units, without putting your squishy troupes in danger is exactly what this army needs to compete.
I kinda view the Death Jester as somewhat useless. I only take him because I feel a show needs him to be performing. But ultimately he hasnt done too much.
I feel in a pure Harlequin force built around speed and assault (even with allies) there arent many places for him to be that is optimal unless you put him alone in a transport.
For 60 points, he doesnt bring much to the table reliably. On paper he sounded very cool, but after a few games, he kinda doesnt seem to merge too well into the force yet.
the_scotsman wrote: But...the beasts do not make the Shadowseer move 12" do they??
Nope, but it's hardly much of an issue. You have 12 beasts on large bases, so you only need to daisy-chain 2 (one behind forward most units, 1 behind that) to keep the Shadowseer in coherency. Given beasts ridiculous movement, it's not like you're jeopardizing that much offense anyway.
Also, I posted the math on Cegs Revenge earlier, so I'll recap here. Unless you are already taking all the units because you like them, re-rolling 1's is not even close to worth it. The only two units in the codex that benifit from it in any substatial way are Solitaires and whatever takes Starmist Rainment. Everything else gets almost negligible benefit. If you are taking everything but 1 Shadowseer/DJ for the detachment anyway, then yes go for it. ANYTHING but a 60 point investment to go out of your way to get Ceg Revenge isn't worth it. Even one barebones skyweaver unit makes it not worth it.
Ok, just a heads up. My ultramarine opponent will be using several vehicles he built using my updated V.D.R. (link in SIG) in our game Saturday. I'll post the rules for them when he emails them to me later. Gonna be sweet
I go back and forth on the beasts. My biggest problem is lack of fast attack slots. I want 2 razorwings, 2 scourges, and 2 reavers....oh and 2 beast packs. (I might go one scourge and one beast pack) The beast packs do a great job tying things up and blocking enemy movement while your clowns prepare for the killing blows. VoT would help with them survive part of what makes beast so good is that they are cheap and you are adding a minimum of 60 points. Another way of keeping them alive would be to cast stealth and shroud on them from another unit. You are not guaranteed to get it but if you have three seerers with two powers each you are very likely to get it. But then again if you have the dance of shadows you may want to give it to your reavers for those nice 2+ jinks.
Also, what is better 2 ml2 shadow seerers or 3 ml1 seers. 2 ml2 gives more warp charges and more rolls on powers but 3 ml1 dishes out much more pain in combat.
4 players and TM w/ caresses
4 players and TM w/ kisses
4 players and TM w/ embrace
fast attack
2 starweavers (wyches go here)
heavy
void weaver w/ prism
Now I have 154 points still to use. I am not sure if I should take:
a succubus and put her in with one of the troupes.
a solitaire and a Lhamean.
2 shadowseers and a Lhamean.
4 medusa and a raider
lambsandlions wrote: I go back and forth on the beasts. My biggest problem is lack of fast attack slots. I want 2 razorwings, 2 scourges, and 2 reavers....oh and 2 beast packs. (I might go one scourge and one beast pack) The beast packs do a great job tying things up and blocking enemy movement while your clowns prepare for the killing blows. VoT would help with them survive part of what makes beast so good is that they are cheap and you are adding a minimum of 60 points. Another way of keeping them alive would be to cast stealth and shroud on them from another unit. You are not guaranteed to get it but if you have three seerers with two powers each you are very likely to get it. But then again if you have the dance of shadows you may want to give it to your reavers for those nice 2+ jinks.
Also, what is better 2 ml2 shadow seerers or 3 ml1 seers. 2 ml2 gives more warp charges and more rolls on powers but 3 ml1 dishes out much more pain in combat.
4 players and TM w/ caresses
4 players and TM w/ kisses
4 players and TM w/ embrace
fast attack
2 starweavers (wyches go here)
heavy
void weaver w/ prism
Now I have 154 points still to use. I am not sure if I should take:
a succubus and put her in with one of the troupes.
a solitaire and a Lhamean.
2 shadowseers and a Lhamean.
4 medusa and a raider
3 ML 2 Shadowseers
Absolutely feel you on FA slots w/DE. Thank god they get 6 already, the codex would have been so cramped otherwise. My general feelings w/DE allies is this: Always bring razorwings for AA/AT, then choose between scourges, beasts and reavers. Beasts and Reavers are great at distraction: boost/run up in your opponents face and force them to shoot at the unit, leaving your Harlies relatively unmolested as they get in position.
Razorwings are amazing, as the turn they come in they get 4 S7 blasts, good for AT/AI and AA (RAW works against FMCs, just not flyers w/AV) and/or 2 AP2 shots for AA/AT. Highly versitile alpha strike potential that is pretty safe from retaliation. All of those roles compliment Harlies well, with the exception of AI (harlies do that just fine ). So your other FA slots become about whether you need AT, AI/destraction, or a little of both. AT- Scourges. Destraction unit- Beasts. Little of Column A/B- Reavers. I've found S6 rending attacks to be extremely versitile in taking out tanks, and T4 3+ is relatively tough for the army.
One thing you might consider in that army is a huge unit of wyches. You've got 2 SS's, and I always advocate using Veil to it's fullest w/them by keeping them on the ground. Yes it makes them a bit slower, but being as they can't be targeted it's a fair trade. Hawire on both, 100 more points in wyches w/ hekatrix w/haywire and whichever upgrades (no idea, don't run wyches myself). Frees up a Skyweaver for Harlies (who need protecting), and gives Wyches a durable transport option. Lhamean as your HQ, in a corner somewhere. Both SS's have a very good chance at Shroud/stealth, or go for gold and get Invis. Eitherway you have a giant durable blob running up the center of the table dominating board control. Could be an interesting option to try out.
More standard, and point-click advice: I'd go Solitaire. He compliments the MSU style of the army more, and is a very credible threat that has to be dealt with while being moderately durable. Succubus doesn't add much (outside of theme), as she'd be a glass-cannon going into a squad of glass cannons.
More shdowseers is an option, but I wouldn't do 2 more. 1 more ML2 + more troupes. Shaving another point somewhere can give you 3 more troupes for one largish squad. The 4th shadowseer wouldn't add that much more utility tbh. Medusa I've seen batted around a lot, but never used. Same goes for D-scythes in a raider. Yea, I guess it's a good idea on paper but if you scatter out of range and have to disembark you've just given up a lot of easy points.
Alt standard option- another Razorwing. Can't have to many.
Hey there guys, enjoying the Harlequin thread so far, just diving into them. I posted here asking about what to turn my boxes into for my harlequin force (i.e. skyweaver v voidweaver and such.) right here:
But I figure some may not see that from this thread... I have a tourney tomorrow and would like some input on what to build. I have 1 SS, 1 DJ, 1 Solitaire, and 1 x5 man troupe (old metal ones) built, and these boxed sets unbuilt:
3 Voidweaver/Starweaver
2 Skyweaverst
2 Troupes
So how should I equip them? For the 1750 tourney tomorrow should I slap the boxed sets together and run it? Or just do eldar accompanied with Heroes Path? Thanks!
You can make 1 Starweaver 1 Voidweaver and 1 unit of Skyweavers into a formation plus a heroes path, that's not bad and honestly youll need all those units anyway.
You're kind of locked into the old metal load out for the troupe though which is suboptimal to say the least...what is it 2x Fusion 2x Kiss power sword troupe master? Bleargh.
Anyway, if you do decide to do just heroes path all I can say is a Mask of Secrets ML2 Shadowseer with telepathy is one mean mother.
the_scotsman wrote: You can make 1 Starweaver 1 Voidweaver and 1 unit of Skyweavers into a formation plus a heroes path, that's not bad and honestly youll need all those units anyway.
You're kind of locked into the old metal load out for the troupe though which is suboptimal to say the least...what is it 2x Fusion 2x Kiss power sword troupe master? Bleargh.
Anyway, if you do decide to do just heroes path all I can say is a Mask of Secrets ML2 Shadowseer with telepathy is one mean mother.
Thanks! The tourney is pretty lax when it comes to rules, its all super friendly and the only competitive aspect is each person kicks in 10 bucks and the top 3 placers get store credit. So with the old metal models I could equip them however I pay points for, as long as it is clear to my opponent who has what.
So you reckon that taking the my eldar and just throwing in the Heroes Path with ML2 Shadowseer would be best? Then maybe next month (its the last saturday of every month) Ill probably have more harlequins to use as a main force?
Automatically Appended Next Post: How does this look:
Eldar w/ Harlequins (Heroes Path and Cegorach's Jest)
HQ:
Farseer w/ Singing Spear
Elite:
6 Fire Dragons: Exarch w/ Firepike and Fast shot
Wave Serpent for Dragons w/ SL and G. Walk Matrix
Troop:
8 Dire Avengers (go with the Farseer)
3 Windriders
Fast attack:
Crimson Hunter Exarch: Bright Lances and Pulse Laser
Heavy Support:
Wraithknight w/ Scatter, Suncannon and Scattershield
Harlequins:
CJ:
2 Skyweavers with haywirecannon and Zephyrglaive
5 Troupes: 4 players + TM w/ Caress, 2 fusion pistols, TM has Crescendo and Haywire nades.
1 Void Weaver w/ Prism
Heroes Path:
Death Jester
Shadowseer: Lv2, Neuro disruptor, Mask of Secrets
Solitaire
Havelock wrote: Hey there guys, enjoying the Harlequin thread so far, just diving into them. I posted here asking about what to turn my boxes into for my harlequin force (i.e. skyweaver v voidweaver and such.) right here:
But I figure some may not see that from this thread... I have a tourney tomorrow and would like some input on what to build. I have 1 SS, 1 DJ, 1 Solitaire, and 1 x5 man troupe (old metal ones) built, and these boxed sets unbuilt:
3 Voidweaver/Starweaver
2 Skyweaverst
2 Troupes
So how should I equip them? For the 1750 tourney tomorrow should I slap the boxed sets together and run it? Or just do eldar accompanied with Heroes Path? Thanks!
-Mat
The Skyweavers' weapons are really easy to magnetize. 1/8" x 1/16" magnets fit right into the weapon mount slot without drilling, clip the tab on the haywire and shiriken cannons and place a magnet on the end and you can run either option.
(I did not bother with the glaives/star bolos, way too small a space for me)
I bought three boxes of Voidweavers/Starweavers too and I built 1 Void weaver and 2 Starweavers. You will need 1 Void weaver for many of the formations, but its not that great, so I have the minimum of 1. I plan on running two Troupes in transports and one on foot, so 2 Starweavers works perfectly.
As far as the Harlies themselves, it really depends, there does not seem to be a single build that everyone agrees on, except that I would model them with something other than the base close combat weapons. For each box, I built 2 embraces (which is all the box comes with), 3 kisses, and I built two Troupe masters, one with a caress, the other with a kiss, just to play with the options for a 5 man squad. I did end up getting a total of 4 boxes because, you know, options
Okay, with the solo troupe you DEFINITELY want a Starweaver. Make it a 6-man (because what the heck) take a PS on the master and kisses on the passengers and point it at something with an armor value.
As for the skyweavers, 2x with zephyr and haywire isn't gonna mesh great with your list, stick with shurikens. For extra Eldar trickery you could even stick that bikeseer in there to prescience their shurikens and glaive attacks. S5 AP2 is nothing to sneeze at and can really F up a lot of targets.
See, the problem with harlies and Eldar is they're not quite as buddy-buddy as the DE where there's obvious synergy, you gotta just tailor them for what your list doesn't do. In your case, those fire dragons are gonna be WAY better at vehicle popping than those fusion harlies. Instead, you should leverage the enormous threat range of move vehicle+Disembark 6"+fleet run+fleet charge starting turn two and hit something that isn't expecting to be hit. Six kisses means you can either have a good chance to ID any single model or you can deal a bunch of AP2 wounds to break a units morale.
As for the Heroes Path, that's a formation I find works best leveraging a couple different relics. The Mask of Secrets works wonders with the death jester and the Psychic Shriek power, allowing the pair to work in concert to debuff and demolish whole units on their own while at first not seeming worth it to shoot at (a pair of low points models with a 2+ cover save). It's pretty impressive when you move into range of 3 units, delete 1 with a shriek, pin another with hallucinogen grenades, and cause a third to flee with the jester.
The solitaire I've been liking more and more with the relic Kiss from the codex. Before I had been shaving a hull point off a vehicle or killing 1-2 high AV models before being splattered by weight of fire, but I've found that he works much better at making his points back just being a blender that causes 7-8 wounds against some pinned or feared infantry unit and sweeps them with an initiative test. The solitaire is great at being a bully and can really last a long time jumping from relatively defenseless target to target mopping up.
So, I got my game in against the ultramarines. Definitive victory for the Harlequins! Played hammer and anvil deadlock maelstrom mission (with a house rule that any objective held at a the end is worth 3 points)
He was running 3 experimental vehicles using my V.D.R. so I can't say for certain how it would have gone against a standard army (said he'll run them next game )
I seized the initiative to start, he was looking to just sweep me off the table, so wasn't in good position objectives wise. By the time all was said and done, he conceded bottom of turn 4 with only his "flight type" knight of ultramar and his captain left on the table.
My take away from this game is heavy armor is only a serious problem on walkers. Our the embrac and kiss just don't cut it against av13 fronts Otherwise, great game, and looking forward to a rematch!
1500 point game this weekend against sisters. Pretty competitive player with a mid range shooty army, so should be a hard matchup. Going to add a few things to the army I had last page, going to fill out more bodies and weapons on the foot troupes, maybe another jetbike or two to get rid of any fortifications/ vehicles he may bring. Here's hoping I can close the gap before he makes my Harlequin do the burny dance
I finally got a game in with my Harlequins. I played a 1000 point escalation league game against Blood Angels.
My list was a little weird because I was trying to use what I have painted, which was mostly the old finecast Harlequins, so bear with me:
Cast of Players
5 x players, 2 with kiss, 1 with embrace
Troupe Master with Kiss
Shadowseer
Death Jester
Faolchu's Blade Formation
2x Skyweavers w/Haywire and Bolas
2x Skyweavers w/Shuriken Cannons and Bolas
Voidweaver w/Prism Cannon
Eldar CAD Spiritseer
Jetbikes x3
Guardians x10 w/Scatter Laser Platform
in a Wave Serpent w/Scatter Laser, Holo Fields
5x Swooping Hawks
I think that was about it.
My opponent was running Mephiston in a Drop Pod w/a Tactical Squad and Sanguinary Priest, 5 of the Sanguinary Guard, another Tac Squad in a Rhino and an Assault Marine Squad.
I didn't take any pictures or take notes, unfortunately, so I can't do a proper batrep. But, what I can tell you is that the Faolchu's Blade formation worked out great. Mephiston and co. dropped in behind the Voidweaver and fired about 20 shots into its rear. I jinked off every hullpoint and the Voidweaver survived the game intact. I even shot and killed a Marine with the rear Shuriken Cannon while jinking. Skyweavers... took out about 500 points of my opponent's army by themselves. 1 Skyweaver team tossed its bolas into the Tac Squad and took out 7 marines in one round of shooting. They also killed most of the Sanguinary Guard squad, the Rhino and a few Assault Marines. I ran them in squads with different weapon loadouts just to see how they worked, and both the cannons and the haywire were great. The re-rollable jink is nice for when you fly up into your opponent's face and throw the bolas, as the turn after you are exposed and that re-roll is key. The Voidweaver very much held its own, too, killing its value in Marines. Mephiston in a drop pod ended up being a mistake against this army because he is not mobile enough once he arrives and I just ran/turbo-boosted away from him once he hit the ground. The Harlequin troupe was an all-star, too, killing the assault marines and then charging and wiping out a depleted Tac Squad that had assaulted the Hawks. At the end of the game my opponent had just Mephiston with 1 wound and a depleted Tac Squad, plus the Drop Pod, while I still had the Voidweaver, Eldar Jetbikes, a few Hawks and a nearly full Harlequin Troupe (having taken just 2 casualties from shooting on turn 1). I ended up pulling it out 6-4.
If I run this list again, I will probably drop the Hawks. They didn't add much to the list.
Here's a shot of my recently (almost) finished Skyweavers, by the way.
Great to hear the rejink formation worked for you. I had been contemplating it since it was brought up a couple pages back. Good idea combining it with COP rather than the Masque or C Revenge formation where the same units woudl not benefit.
Also nice looking bikes! Question, I have not put mine together yet but looked at the instructions.
Is there a more stable method for the flying base? Meaning is it more secure and less flimsly than say the current wind rider bikes.
I was thinking of magnetizing the bikes to their flying bases.
So, played the sisters. He had a fortress of redemption, Uriah Jacobs, and a giant pile of heavy bolters. I had a masque detachment, and the heroes path formation. Scattering of special weapons on my units, solitaire had cegorachs rose, had trip ml2 SS and death jesters, and two units of the jetbike( one glaive on each two man unit, and haywire blasters on both)
My take away, infiltrating the solitaire to guarantee turn two charges is BEASTLY. he did so much work, especially when in any sort of cover. So hard to bring down. The pistols on troupers are wasted points with this detachment, anything within 6-12 inches I would wanna shoot, I'd rather run towards and charge. The bikes with haywire may not be the toughest units in the game, but they are close to the toughest in the army. With the 4 haywire blasters on the field, I could just point, click, delete nearly any vehicle I pointed at. One round of shooting from ONE TEAM put down a sister and put two hull points on the central tower, one on the central annex, and one on the missile silo.
Death jesters did a great job mucking about, claiming objectives, bullying anyone who wasn't fearless, absorbing fire, and picking out the basic priest at one point. Well worth 60 points IMO.
We won, but the solitaire was the only thing left alive at the end of turn 5 with one wound. He had 15 models on the table, but had started out with around 54 and the building. Failed two 7" charges turn two and ate ALL of the fire power he could swing my direction the next turn.
All in all, great game and can't wait to play them I the future.
Skerr wrote: I am putting my sky weavers together tonight and am not used to the new flying bases.
the ball on the end looks to need go be glued to the bike. I could magnetize but I just think that's weird.
is that the new trend? Glue your flying base? I am not assuming the weaver kit has the same base.
I was in denial. I even wrote to GW. Here was the reply btw:
Thank you for writing in to us! We had forwarded this on to the UK to double-check on this for you. The UK did confirm "this model is intended to be glued on to the stem, with the ball fitting about 1/3 to 1/2 of the way in depending on the angle you have the model."
I've been magnetizing stands just so I can actually fit everything in a transport case. All the skimmer stands for the Harlies are like this. Imagine moving this whole thing with glued on bases on the Skyweavers, Starweavers and Voidweavers? It's already stressful moving them with the guys hanging out on top with bolas and guns.
I've been magnetizing stands just so I can actually fit everything in a transport case. All the skimmer stands for the Harlies are like this. Imagine moving this whole thing with glued on bases on the Skyweavers, Starweavers and Voidweavers? It's already stressful moving them with the guys hanging out on top with bolas and guns.
This brings up a great point. Harlequins and Dark eldar are the most fragile armies. What is the best way to transport them. My tau I can slap in a foam box and they are good too go but I don't trust all those spikes and streamers and what in foam. What is the best transport case? I might try a magnetic case, but I am not sure what to do with my voidravens.
Skerr wrote: I am putting my sky weavers together tonight and am not used to the new flying bases.
the ball on the end looks to need go be glued to the bike. I could magnetize but I just think that's weird.
is that the new trend? Glue your flying base? I am not assuming the weaver kit has the same base.
Thanks for your nice comments on the bikes, and to answer your question, I superglued them to the flying bases. Those things just would not stay on without glue, so I gave up and glued them in place. It makes them a little more tricky to transport, but fortunately my main army is Tyranids, so my case has a lot of oddly-shaped foam cutouts that ended up working fine. Hope that helps! I will probably do the same thing with the Voidweaver/Starweavers, as the darn Voidweaver kept falling off its base during the game, too.
I've been magnetizing stands just so I can actually fit everything in a transport case. All the skimmer stands for the Harlies are like this. Imagine moving this whole thing with glued on bases on the Skyweavers, Starweavers and Voidweavers? It's already stressful moving them with the guys hanging out on top with bolas and guns.
This brings up a great point. Harlequins and Dark eldar are the most fragile armies. What is the best way to transport them. My tau I can slap in a foam box and they are good too go but I don't trust all those spikes and streamers and what in foam. What is the best transport case? I might try a magnetic case, but I am not sure what to do with my voidravens.
I ended up laying the Skyweavers on their side in the foam, so that the bolas are facing upward. The bolas are very delicate and cannot support the weight of the model. I put a little extra pluck foam that was left over around the edges of the models so that they would not move during transport. Definitely not the easiest models to transport, but do-able with some forethought. I am thinking about ordering some extra pluck foam trays to make some custom-fitted trays for the rest of the vehicles.
Skerr wrote: Hmmmm, not sure if I wii glue or magnetized.
Hanyone ever glued washers under model bases for a little extra weight?
Most of the plastic minis are light enough that they don't need it, unless you are a hormogaunt. I think I am going to glue two or three magnets on my bases and then carry them on a piece of sheet metal.
I haven't tried a game with these guys yet. The basic idea is dark artisan Deepstrikes as a distraction as well as giving -2LD debuff from coven supplement.
shadowseever with mask goes in the big troupe, two reamining shadowseer joins the smaller troupes in skyweavers.
the deathjesters feel out of place without a transport or bodyguard, I am considering to just drop two of them, drop heroes path all together and then get a unit of bikes?
I'm planning on taking a full Cegorach's Revenge list to an 1850 tournament in a few weeks. It's single source, so I can only have one formation. Being 1850 and wanting to have some fun, I opted for the revenge to get the nice benefits, seeing as how I would have to take everything in a normal masque to even touch 1850.
I'll let y'all know how I do, but here's my list:
Spoiler:
Revenge
Death Jester - Haywire
Death Jester - Haywire
Death Jester - Haywire
I haven't tried a game with these guys yet. The basic idea is dark artisan Deepstrikes as a distraction as well as giving -2LD debuff from coven supplement.
shadowseever with mask goes in the big troupe, two reamining shadowseer joins the smaller troupes in skyweavers.
the deathjesters feel out of place without a transport or bodyguard, I am considering to just drop two of them, drop heroes path all together and then get a unit of bikes?
Dark Artisan
Haemonculus: Webway portal, Scissorhand, Syndriq's sump, The Nightmare Doll
Talos: Ichor injector, Twin-linked Heat-lance
Cronos: Spirit probe
1850
Thanks for any comments.
I've been having a lot of success running the death jesters independently as single model units with haywire grenades. My 1750 list has 3 normal ones and the heroes path. While the leadership manipulation isn't a guarantee, forcing your opponent to make 2-3 of them every turn WILL make them target to death jesters..even of they don't run off the table, everyone but marines is snap shooting the next turn automatically. Without our own flyers, that's a legitimate issue.
I roll on the light table and hope to get infiltrate or the reposition options to maximize their targets. Good luck, the list looks solid!
So I took my quins for a practice game today against CAD Necrons. My opponent didn't have a massive deathstar, but did play with some fun choices. My list can be found above.
We played modified book missions, with relic as well as 3 crusade objectives, standard first blood/warlord/linebreaker.
Quick result - Harlequins win! Game ended on 5 with 2 crusade objectives to 1, I controlled the relic, and had first blood & linebreaker to his nothing. All that was left were the 4 wraiths, the ghost ark on 2 hps, and obyron.
I had my starmist warlord and 1 kiss trouper from his squad, one glaive skyweaver with 1 wound, the solitaire with 1 wound, one void weaver, and one starweaver. It was an enjoyable game, with sweeping advances taking most of the warriors out.
In depth -
Seers all got mirror of the minds, mask had fog of dreams, and the other two had laugh of sorrows. Quite a good smattering of powers. Warlord got Encore for his warlord trait. I went second.
Early game saw me bring most of my shuriken cannons to kill the deceiver turn 1, while losing most of my large caress unit. Forced a few leadership checks from the death jesters on the large unit of warriors, but they passed their -2 test turn 1 and turn 2.
Turn 2, he killed 2 out of 3 jesters as well as seers with some ridiculous rolls. I was able to assault the nightbringer with kisses and take him down as well as bring the mask within range to the 20 man unit. Skyweavers flanked the necrons, doing some damage to the destroyers. Solitaire and the remains of the caress unit tied up the warriors in my turn.
Turn 3 saw the wraiths making a long charge to the jetbikes, but they were able to hit and run out with one glaive on full wounds. Solitaire and one caress trouper killed 5 warriors, losing the trouper, and forcing him to flee at -7 leadership. I10 auto-sweeping was very nice and allowed me to charge the remaining destroyers in my turn with the solitaire but doing minimal damage. Heavy destroyers were taken out by kisses & embraces.
Turn 4 saw the lychguard charging the warlord's starweaver, blowing it up from obyron and pinning the unit about 3" away from them. 10 warriors disembarked and shot up the second troupe and shadowseer. Skyweaver charged in to help the solitaire do some damage to the destroyers. The other skyweavers charged the lychguard and managed to not only survive, but kill a lychguard in the process. Passed morale and held up the unit from charging the warlord.
Turn 5, the wraiths killed the last skyweaver in the first unit, but the solitaire was unable to be attacked in combat (multiple combat) and escaped from it after dispatching the final 2 destroyers. I was able to charge the remaining 10 warriors with the Solitaire and second unit of skyweavers, while also finishing off the lychguard, leaving just obyron alive. Solitaire and skyweaver killed off all but 3 warriors, having them fail morale and cause the second auto-sweep. Game ended, and twisted encore allowed the warlord to move & run to be within range of the relic.
Overall thoughts - Revenge was nice for the Solitaire, keeping him alive with 1 wound (darn 2's!). Rose more than made its points with some key rerolls killing off full wound destroyers and warriors. Shadowseers could have done more, but my opponent was denying powers something awful (ie - Fog on the lychguard went off on 3 dice. He rolls 5 dice and gets 3 6's to deny it, haha). Jesters provided a nice distraction, overwatch soak against the 20 man warriors, and general annoying unit. Voidweavers were cute, forcing jinks on the ark and doing minimal damage to the warriors, but were by and large left unmolested by my opponent. Lastly, twisted encore warlord trait proved just how powerful of a rule it was, being both hilarious and useful, though even without it I would have won 2 objectives to none (warlord movement/run got far away from an objective to the relic).
Was the army fun? Absolutely. Could it be competitive? Yes. Will it be the end all be all of top tier armies? Not as a stand alone force, but certainly with eldar or dark eldar (such as the rumored farseers and warhost detachment....).
"Shadowseers in units of scatterbikes."
Wraithknight is even more of an anti-armor beast for us.
Hawks fix our flyer problem.
Hemlocks fix our FMC problem.
I think eldar are hands down the better ally now, though I'll probably stick with just harlequins or harlequins and dark eldar for a bit until the blow back from this codex dies down. Plus, all of the tournament changes or limits will be nice to see before I make any drastic changes.
Even so, you only have to take the core detachment if you are running the war host. The constituent formations are their own formation and can therefore be used independently.
In other words, if you take the crimson death formation, you answer the issue of the harlequin anti armor/ anti flyer weakness.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Even so, you only have to take the core detachment if you are running the war host. The constituent formations are their own formation and can therefore be used independently.
In other words, if you take the crimson death formation, you answer the issue of the harlequin anti armor/ anti flyer weakness.
Not all the formations are true formations, though. It's like the Decurion where you build the detachment with multiple formations plus options of adding certain units in as well. For the Necrons, Deathmarks and Flayed Ones are examples of those, and cannot be added as a formation to any other battle forged armies. It remains to be seen how this works out for the Crimson Hunters.
Anyway, what I'm really interested in is the Seer Council. Plugging that into a Harlequin army would be pretty damn cool.
I hate to say it, but Eldar are just a better army than us. I can't point to anything in our codex other than the Death Jester without being able to point to just the previews of stuff that's better.
THAT SAID...
I'm looking forward to legitimately using my Wraithknight without it being an Unbound detachment through use of the 1 Wraithknight formation. I also will need to look to my Eldar allies for anti-air - probably the Hawks, but maybe Dark Reapers!
The single wraithknight won't be a formation,that would be an add on. The three flyers are a formation, because they aren't a squadron and gain special abilities for free when you take it.
In regards to us being weaker, nonsense. We actually have the tools required to stop their most powerful units. Single death jesters trump scatbikes (LOL), solitaire and caress squads trump wraithknight. We have invulnerable saves on everything and or phantasmancy discipline gives us more options to stop long range strD. We have haywire options and our army is fast enough to keep from being out maneuvered.
Honestly, our biggest benefit against eldar is that our pure harlequin tac list happens to have our best tools for beating eldar
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Even so, you only have to take the core detachment if you are running the war host. The constituent formations are their own formation and can therefore be used independently.
In other words, if you take the crimson death formation, you answer the issue of the harlequin anti armor/ anti flyer weakness.
Not all the formations are true formations, though. It's like the Decurion where you build the detachment with multiple formations plus options of adding certain units in as well. For the Necrons, Deathmarks and Flayed Ones are examples of those, and cannot be added as a formation to any other battle forged armies. It remains to be seen how this works out for the Crimson Hunters.
Anyway, what I'm really interested in is the Seer Council. Plugging that into a Harlequin army would be pretty damn cool.
Where does it say you can't take deathmarks formation without taking the core detachment? Sorry I moved house last week and my Cron dex is boxed up... somewhere... Not disagreeing with you, but I can't recall reading that.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Even so, you only have to take the core detachment if you are running the war host. The constituent formations are their own formation and can therefore be used independently.
In other words, if you take the crimson death formation, you answer the issue of the harlequin anti armor/ anti flyer weakness.
Not all the formations are true formations, though. It's like the Decurion where you build the detachment with multiple formations plus options of adding certain units in as well. For the Necrons, Deathmarks and Flayed Ones are examples of those, and cannot be added as a formation to any other battle forged armies. It remains to be seen how this works out for the Crimson Hunters.
Anyway, what I'm really interested in is the Seer Council. Plugging that into a Harlequin army would be pretty damn cool.
Where does it say you can't take deathmarks formation without taking the core detachment? Sorry I moved house last week and my Cron dex is boxed up... somewhere... Not disagreeing with you, but I can't recall reading that.
The death marks are an option in the decurion, but aren't a formation in their own right. Formations have their own symbol in the corner, have, or have the option for, multiple units in them, and give a bonus to units in them for free. Also, formations have their own page in the codex.
If you can get into range, neuro disruptor troupe is the hard counter to the wraith knight. Wounds on 2+ with no armor.
I don't see death jesters as a hard counter to scatter bikes, the bikes massively out range him. You'd be banking on psychic powers to keep him from getting shot off the table, which isn't always a good bet against Eldar (farseers, psykers in troop units, unit of psykers as well).
I'll stick with my archon and medusae + venom for bikes, and shift the webway archon to a neuro disruption troupe when needed.
HawaiiMatt wrote: If you can get into range, neuro disruptor troupe is the hard counter to the wraith knight. Wounds on 2+ with no armor.
I don't see death jesters as a hard counter to scatter bikes, the bikes massively out range him. You'd be banking on psychic powers to keep him from getting shot off the table, which isn't always a good bet against Eldar (farseers, psykers in troop units, unit of psykers as well).
I'll stick with my archon and medusae + venom for bikes, and shift the webway archon to a neuro disruption troupe when needed.
The Wraithknight is going to a be a Gargantuan Monstrous Creature. That means Fleshbane only hurts it on a 6+, not a 2+. You'll have better chances with the Fusion Pistol. Lots of Caresses or Kisses will be the way to go.
HawaiiMatt wrote: If you can get into range, neuro disruptor troupe is the hard counter to the wraith knight. Wounds on 2+ with no armor.
I don't see death jesters as a hard counter to scatter bikes, the bikes massively out range him. You'd be banking on psychic powers to keep him from getting shot off the table, which isn't always a good bet against Eldar (farseers, psykers in troop units, unit of psykers as well).
I'll stick with my archon and medusae + venom for bikes, and shift the webway archon to a neuro disruption troupe when needed.
The Wraithknight is going to a be a Gargantuan Monstrous Creature. That means Fleshbane only hurts it on a 6+, not a 2+. You'll have better chances with the Fusion Pistol. Lots of Caresses or Kisses will be the way to go.
You're reading the Garg rules wrong. Fleshbane still works, poison and sniper is on 6+.
I bet the Crimson Death formation is warhost only. They are not going to let just anyone take a squad of CH.
Too bad I like the idea of air support.
My original plan was an allied eldar detachment with a laughing autarch, 2 units of windriders to run interference for skyweavers and a Crimson Hunter.
Cant have the laughing autarch now, he was fun but oh well.
The Crimson Death formation for us would be to good to be true.
Skerr wrote: I bet the Crimson Death formation is warhost only. They are not going to let just anyone take a squad of CH.
Too bad I like the idea of air support.
My original plan was an allied eldar detachment with a laughing autarch, 2 units of windriders to run interference for skyweavers and a Crimson Hunter.
Cant have the laughing autarch now, he was fun but oh well.
The Crimson Death formation for us would be to good to be true.
Looking at the datacard right now, crimson death IS a normal formation so everyone CAN take them.
Based on the rumors, it appears that the Banshee mask is immune to overwatch. What does everyone think of an Autarch with the mask running with a unit of Harlie bikes with Zephrglaives? I hate that the mirage launchers won't work with an Eldar bike in the unit, but the bikes move so fast this may not be an issue.
I've been using Harlequins' and the Dark Eldar's ability to use Leadership negatives coupled with allied psykers with pretty good results. I thought sharing my own thoughts on the strategy might help other people, so I started a series of tactica posts on the subject, which you can find here.
Asked forge world what units in their eldar collection are available to the harlequin masque detachment via email, they said to take whatever you want from them to fill in the slots. Totally adding in my night wing interceptor to fill a fast attack slot!
Is anyone else wrecking face with the Faolchu's Blade formation? I'm running it with 2x3 Skyweavers with glaives and a few haywire cannons and *wow* is it good....
mercury14 wrote: Is anyone else wrecking face with the Faolchu's Blade formation? I'm running it with 2x3 Skyweavers with glaives and a few haywire cannons and *wow* is it good....
what about it are you enjoying? Have you ever used dark eldar reavers? I am curious if you like the mobility or the damage output or possibly the durability. Specifically what type of unites do you hunt with them?
mercury14 wrote: Is anyone else wrecking face with the Faolchu's Blade formation? I'm running it with 2x3 Skyweavers with glaives and a few haywire cannons and *wow* is it good....
what about it are you enjoying? Have you ever used dark eldar reavers? I am curious if you like the mobility or the damage output or possibly the durability. Specifically what type of unites do you hunt with them?
Turn two is such a bloody mess for my opponent. I'm 6-0 with this list, half the time my opponents have conceded around turn three. I plan on taking it to a regional 40-person tournament next weekend.
Awesome, a unit of skyweavers that can be overwatched with banshee autarch on bike is great news!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I dont have the old or new dex in front of me. Does the jet autarch have assault grenades that a unit of attached skyweavers can benefit from?
Skerr wrote: Awesome, a unit of skyweavers that can be overwatched with banshee autarch on bike is great news!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I dont have the old or new dex in front of me. Does the jet autarch have assault grenades that a unit of attached skyweavers can benefit from?
I got a look at the Codex today and the Autarch has both plasma and haywire grenades stranded.
So the single source tournament was yesterday! Here are the results of using my pure harlequin army.
Reminder of the list. The tournament was only allowing a single detachment / formation / source, so I couldn't even do multiple formations or anything from the quins. My one concern going in was flyers.
Spoiler:
Revengeance 1850 3x Jesters - haywire 3x Shadowseers - Level 2, haywire, one with Mask of Secrets Solitaire - Rose
Game 1 - Versus IG (or Astra Militarum). My round 1 opponent was getting back into the game with a fluffy IG list. Three squads of guardsmen (not blob'd), Pask & friend, a vendetta with vets, ogryns, a ccs, two chimera, and three heavy weapons teams of 2 autocannons and a lascannon was his list, more or less. Early game saw him denying veil on my caress unit, rolling 3 6's on his 5 denial dice. Voidweavers killed pask's friend turn 1, doing 3 hull points after getting four hits from their small blasts on both tanks. Key players in this game were the skyweavers and the death jesters, tanking a lot of shots and killing off guardsmen left and right. Most of his units ran off the board from the jesters. The caress unit was able to make a long charge turn 2 to kill a guard squad. They were able to then charge pask to finish him off. Highlight of the game was having two starweavers surround his ogryns in their chimera, then a troupe charging it. Wasn't able to wreck it, but stunned it. In his ensuing turn, I was able to wreck it, but after some quins died to his shooting, I wasn't able to completely surround it. Still, only a psycher and 2 out of 6 ogryns could squeeze out of the wreck, giving me a nice bonus to not having to shoot them. We were only able to get to turn 3 as he was still learning most of his units / army, but I maxed points. 12-1 win to me.
Game 2 - Versus White Scars. Round 2 opponent was a very nice guy. All of his bikes were forgeworld models, converted, and painted quite nicely. He had a smash chapter master, khan, 2 thunderfires, 6 units of grave bikes with some multimelta attack bikes....and a forgeworld fire raptor. Having never played against a fire raptor and finding out what it did made this game significantly harder, as without allies, I had no anti-air whatsoever. Going in to this game, I was merely trying to survive, as the table, while having some small ruins, had no BLOS terrain, so it was a shooting gallery for him. Early game saw me reserve a lot of units to play the late game. I had to abandon maelstrom points as his two thunderfires and fire raptor just obliterated squad after squad, though veil of tears was clutch for turn 1. Solitaire did work this game, precision striking out his apothecary in his command squad. I wasn't fully able to block his hit & run from my units turn 2 as I had to send bikes to deal with his tfcs. In retrospect, I should have used the skyweavers to fully block his command squad's hit & run, as it would have saved a majority of my units from his fire raptor. Despite the uphill battle, I would have snagged a few points on turn 5, but alas, the game continued on to turn 6 and I lost. 1-12.
Game 3 - Versus Dark Eldar. I was lucky and got one of the 2 tables that had some BLOS terrain this game. The dark eldar was a mix of splinter rack raiders, blasterborn in venoms, three talos, an archon, and a unit of reavers. I opted to deploy everything this game and took first turn, forcing most of his raiders & venoms to jink. Skyweavers took out the reavers easily, though they got lucky as the 2 remaining reavers failed to hit & run turn 2. (Side note - he accidentally played his reavers as WS 5. I would have wiped them out in the first round of combat, as most of my to hit rolls were 3's, especially the glaive. But failing hit & run made up for it). He was able to take out a few starweavers, getting a lucky explodes on my warlord's unit to kill all of them but the warlord and mask seer. After wiping out most of his vehicles, forcing his units to run towards my caress unit, pinning a 10 man warrior unit before charging in the solitaire, and forcing his deepstriking scourges off of my table edge, he wound up with just his unit of 3 talos left. Turn 5, I had the relic, was up 11 - 1 on maelstrom points, and had the tertiary as well. For fun and because he didn't want to quit, I charged the talos with a shadowseer, one troupe unit, and the solitaire, after getting off fog of dreams on them. The shadowseer had peril'd and rolled a 6, so most of the talos were only taking FNP against her. Between them all, (and a 6 on a kiss wound), I was able to kill all but 1 wound on a talos. The game ended with just one talos left alive for him. 12 - 0 victory to me.
Overall, I went 2-1 with my quins and tied for 6th out of 18, points-wise. It wasn't a super hardcore tournament (hence only one source!), but I played well and had fun. Terrain was SERIOUSLY lacking, so my game 2 was an uphill battle with no way to hide any of my models. I wasn't a fan of adepticon maelstrom nor how tertiary was 3 points to whomever won the most of them, but format aside, I was very pleased with the quins. They certainly need allies, which the club is considering for the next tournament. I will say that it was nice to take a break from our super competitive meta in my home store and just play for fun. My opponents were all very nice guys and great sports. I'm looking forward to playing a few more competitive games with Harlequins / Eldar in the future, so I'll post some reports about them on here as well.
Honestly rerolling 1's never really made much of a difference. It saved maybe 1 or two players over the course of the day, but it wasn't the end all be all like it appears. The solitaire still died to the fire raptor shooting everything at him game two and took no wounds games 1 and 3.
I'd be fine with a masque detachment instead I suppose. The formation bonus was occasionally nice, but the wins/loss would have been the same without it.
as others have stated here, I'm going to mix DE and Harlies.
my group generally plays 1500pts and don't use flyers, so...
harlequin mask detachment
5 Harlies, neuro/caress, 2 kiss, 2 embrace, shadow weaver (Succubus joins this troupe) 208
9 Harlies, pw+hw gren, 5 kiss, 3 embrace (will ride in FA Raider from DE) 215
9 Harlies , pw+hw gren, 5 kiss, 3 embrace (will ride in FA Raider from DE) 215
Shadow Weaver (DE warriors and jester ride in this) 75
Shadow Weaver (DE warriors and jester ride in this) 75
Void weaver, haywire cannon 75
Deathjester (ride in shadow weaver) 60
Deathjester (ride in shadow weaver) 60
Shadowseer, lvl 2, mask of secrets (rides in raider) 100
Shadowseer, lvl 2 (rides in raider) 85
DE Realspace detachment
Succubus, archite glaive, hw gren 100
5 warriors (ride in shadow weaver) 40
5 warriors (ride in shadow weaver) 40
Raider, lance, night shields 75
Raider, lance, night shields 75
1498pts.
just a lot of fun running around.
With more points I'd add a ravager or Solitaire (can't decide), 6 reaver jetbikes with caltrops and blasters, and squeeze in another Void Weaver (so running 1850pts)
so thinking about the skyweavers, I really don't seen the point in taking haywire cannons for them. You're paying a lot of points for that attack profile so it should be used. 4 S5 attacks plus HOW on the charge is pretty nasty, especially if combined with a banshee autarch on a bike and jester kills moving units out of cover. For this reason, the shuricannon is better for me. besides, when not using them as harlies, I'll probably run four of them as shuribikes for Eldar to use up a Troops slot. Saves buying more bikes.
I think I'll keep the haywire cannon on the Void weaver even though it doesn't gel with it's other weapons, and may get a 2nd.
One of my Harlequins might have just one-shotted a Hive Tyrant in today's tournament.
Also - wow being able to move 6" in the transport, disembark 6", fleet run, fleet assault gives us a *massive* threat bubble that's badly under-estimated by our opponents...
After alot of tuning point-wise here is my take on the whole Synergy thing with the Harlequins.
The Archon (1) goes in the Raider with the Dark troupe (5) along with the Death Jester (1) and the Shadowseer who has the Mask of Secrets (1) AND the Autarch (1). So 8 guys in the Raider.
The Armor of Misery gives -2LD, the Death Jester causes a roll on a -2LD whenever he kills someone. Mask of Secrets gives another -2LD and the Hemlock another -2LD not to mention the other psychic powers and some D-Strength blasts.
When the Dark troupe assaults, they will be protected from overwatch by the Autarch with Banshee Mask and that's if the target is not already pinned by the DJ's or SS's shot. The Archon and DJ remain on-board the Raider and are a walking -4LD which is nothing to sneeze at.
The bikes are there because they are the cheapest troop.
Hemlock with Telepathy is just yummy in this list.
The rest is self explanatory
Your thoughts? (Not too sure where to throw the last 8 points. Maybe some HWG on the Solitaire)
I'm thinking I'll be using a formation that runs and charges most of the time anyway so 10pts could be spent elsewhere. Just not sure I really want him in combat.
lambsandlions wrote: I heard that there was a white dwarf were harlequin troupes can be taken as eldar/DE troops. Anyone know anything about this?
The DE codex still has Harlies listed? If so, you can use them from there, with the listed costs and abilities also listed there.
They've been 'FAQ'd out of the Eldar codex, by way of a new book.
lambsandlions wrote: I heard that there was a white dwarf were harlequin troupes can be taken as eldar/DE troops. Anyone know anything about this?
The DE codex still has Harlies listed? If so, you can use them from there, with the listed costs and abilities also listed there.
They've been 'FAQ'd out of the Eldar codex, by way of a new book.
Harlequins are in neither of the current eldar codices. What I heard about was rules from a white dwarf that allowed you to take troupes as troops in de/eldar lists. Seeing as no one is talking about this I either have to assume a) no one reads white dwarf of b) my source was a troll (most likely)
WD was suggesting that Harlies make great allies for DE and CE. You will still need to add the clowns in via a formation in the Harlequin book. You just can't add them in as troops (as nice as objec troupes would be).
I'm thinking I'll be using a formation that runs and charges most of the time anyway so 10pts could be spent elsewhere. Just not sure I really want him in combat.
Shuripistol as most of the time you will want to shoot with your Hallucinogen grenade launcher anyway. Neuro Pistol prevents you from shooting with the GL and is therefore wasted points.
I'm thinking I'll be using a formation that runs and charges most of the time anyway so 10pts could be spent elsewhere. Just not sure I really want him in combat.
Shuripistol as most of the time you will want to shoot with your Hallucinogen grenade launcher anyway. Neuro Pistol prevents you from shooting with the GL and is therefore wasted points.
derp, completely forgot about the HGL.
I actually modeled the neuro on him as I love the look of the pistol but will just use shuri. My group is not fully WYSIWYG and I doubt many of them could tell the difference between the neuro, shuri and fusion anyway (I'm the only Eldar player)
Hg(XIV) - see my previous 1850 Revenge list a page or two back. I had 1-2 shadowseers each with a troupe in a weaver, and 1-2 with the unit on foot. The jesters would either start on foot, or usually one on foot while two jumped into the empty weaver from the 10 man unit.
Rerolling 1's is nice, but not necessary. Solitaire already does work without the bonus, I find.
Rypher wrote: Hg(XIV) - see my previous 1850 Revenge list a page or two back. I had 1-2 shadowseers each with a troupe in a weaver, and 1-2 with the unit on foot. The jesters would either start on foot, or usually one on foot while two jumped into the empty weaver from the 10 man unit.
Rerolling 1's is nice, but not necessary. Solitaire already does work without the bonus, I find.
How well do your Harlies do when deployed on foot? I'm afraid to try. I guess you keep Veil up? But they have to move forward or something deep strikes near them... then what?
The large unit of 10 usually did very very well. It's a distraction more than anything. Veil when possible is always nice on them. The big thing is underestimating their movement. Turn 1 is usually just move + run. Turns 2+ is move + run and attempt charges. When you have skyweavers and smaller troupes flying in your opponent's face, they tend to either not shoot the large unit that's "far away" or they over commit to shooting it, leaving the rest of the army unscathed.
Don't forget, with 6 mastery levels, I have a decent shot at getting dance of shadows. Suddenly the quins have a 2+ cover if touching any piece of terrain, usually with veil as well. If not, they typically do what they want to do.
Pyrrhic victories mean nothing in a game where all of your units are alive in the next battle.
Jimsolo wrote: What are peoples' preferences on Warlord trait table? I like Dark, myself.
While I like the Dark traits, I find the tables to be very situational. If I absolutely need to go first I will give it a shot at the light table to get the +4 to Seize initative. You have to adapt to whatever army, deployement and mission. With an army like the Harlequins, you have to stay flexible.
I've been thinking about buying some Harlequins. I've had a soft spot for them since 2nd edition when I played Eldar. These days I only have a Blood Angels army. My meta is DA, Khorne Daemonkin/World Eaters, and pure Thousand Sons. What would you recommend to ally with my army?
I've been thinking about buying some Harlequins. I've had a soft spot for them since 2nd edition when I played Eldar. These days I only have a Blood Angels army. My meta is DA, Khorne Daemonkin/World Eaters, and pure Thousand Sons. What would you recommend to ally with my army?
I'd start small with a Faolchu's Blade formation, maybe with two units of three jetbikes and just one Voidweaver. They'll wreck anything that doesn't ignore cover.
Just got my Shadowseer and Deathjester - LVL2 on Shadowseer with a Mask of Secrets definetely. Deathjester will probably be barebones, unless I have 5 pts spare for Haywire. Shall probably be using in a DE detachment for Armour of Misery/Coven Ld shenanigans.
What would be the better purchase? Solitaire for heres path (and have personal Venoms for each guy so it's a 4+ cover in open, 2+ behind something) or Troupe (for Harlequin warlord traits and a single Raider for transport, so cheaper)?
Hosting a Mini tournament on Wednesday. 750 points, single codex/faction, battle forged only. Some other restrictions such as max total armor value of 33, no 2+ multi-wound models or units, etc.
Heroes' Path
Death Jester
Shadowseer - Level 2, Mask of Secrets
Solitaire - Cegorach's Rose
Never used the prismatic on the voidweaver, but it should help out with some more anti-tank punch. Normally I'm happy with the haywire blast, but with most things being av 11 or lower, the skyweavers and jester usually get the job done.
Rypher wrote: Hosting a Mini tournament on Wednesday. 750 points, single codex/faction, battle forged only. Some other restrictions such as max total armor value of 33, no 2+ multi-wound models or units, etc.
Heroes' Path
Death Jester
Shadowseer - Level 2, Mask of Secrets
Solitaire - Cegorach's Rose
Never used the prismatic on the voidweaver, but it should help out with some more anti-tank punch. Normally I'm happy with the haywire blast, but with most things being av 11 or lower, the skyweavers and jester usually get the job done.
You play in the tournaments you host? Isn't that a conflict of interest?
I'm not sold on the hero's path. Your characters cannot join other units and so are pretty much stuck to using terrain pieces to have any sense of survivability. Am I missing something? I'd much rather have my characters in units.
I use my death jesters in singles any way for extreme msu, especially when running the masque detachment. All the jester needs is one wound to go through and his work has started, so doubling g them up in a unit may be wasted shots.
The shadowseer in the heroes path I run uses ml2 mask of secrets, and rolls on telepathy. Starting out of sight it makes the enemy think twice about their movement phase.
The solitaire gaining stealth and shrouded give him similar survivability to the formation allowing him to reroll ones, and give me more flexibility with options in my army.
I roll.on light table to grab the redeploy or grant infiltrate to a couple units to get more of my jesters into range. It has worked on chaos, spacewolves, sisters, and nids.
bullyboy wrote: I'm not sold on the hero's path. Your characters cannot join other units and so are pretty much stuck to using terrain pieces to have any sense of survivability. Am I missing something? I'd much rather have my characters in units.
In a Freakshow list, they are amazing! Putting them in Venoms courtesy of a Realspace Raiders detachment adds a lot to the formation. The Shadowseer and the Death Jester gain Deep Strike, and they all gain mobility they otherwise would have lacked, plus two hull points (on a vehicle which shares their 4+ cover and 5+ invul save!), not to mention the 36 poisoned shots.
Looking forward to a ''40K in 40 Mins'' Tourney which is doubles 600pt games (300pts per player, 600pts for team) playing unbound in 40 minutes per round.
I really have my heart set on using the Heroes Path, using just 3 models seems exactly what the TO had in mind for short games. My Partner would either play Skitari or Tau, to sure up my weakness in AV.
I was thinking Naked Death Jester, level 1 Seer with Mask and the Solitaire with Rose (We play Kiss and Embrace working, and Shred conferring onto embrace attacks) and Haywire grenades. 300pts on the dot, although i'm considering dropping Rose and Mask for level 2 Seer. But then again, the only power he needs is Psy-Shriek and if i throw all dice at it then it'll probably go off.
With that in mind, what kind of things would my partner have to take to sure up my Weaknesses? I don't expect people to be to horrible (E.G I don't expect a Wraithknight or Imperial Knight) but I'd like to be able to handle one if they popped up. Luckily the Solitaire is reasonably good at both.
There is almost nothing the Solitaire can't handle once he reaches CC. I personally wouldn't take the Haywire grenades on him, but that's a personal preference issue.
Jimsolo wrote: There is almost nothing the Solitaire can't handle once he reaches CC. I personally wouldn't take the Haywire grenades on him, but that's a personal preference issue.
Had 5 points left and i thought the Solitaire would make better use of them then the Shadowseer, because she has pinning grenades she'll always want to fire + the Solitaire has a higher Ballistic Skill so he seemed like the best place to put it.
Well, chucking a grenade is nice, but I also like giving the Jester a grenade instead. Surprise haywire in the backfield when a tank gets near the jester is always hilarious.
As for the heroes' path, it's super strong. I regularly take it in my normal tournament lists, if only for the solitaire. He shores up my combat defense and handles certain things that a wraithknight used to fight. The jester & mask seer are icing on the cake, with the seer throwing up shrieks and the jester doing work at -2 or -4 leadership always. As Jimsolo said, they exemplify MSU while also contributing to the game significantly.
One thing I find is the seer should jump to ml2 if possible. Roll once on telepathy & once on phantasmancy, usually just taking veil & shriek. The seer is fantastic in maelstrom or holding backfield objectives with both stealth & shrouded as well as 2d6x2 spotting distance.
Lastly, with all of the characters having infiltrate, I tend to outflank the seer or jester occasionally to pick off enemies backfield or cause disruption. Again, who wants to shoot at a 60 to 100 point single unit with (hopefully) a 2+ cover and 2 wounds?
Normally I run mine midfield to start, then turbo boost everything else to one side. Itnleavs most other armies on the wrong foot, with very little in the way of viable targets.
Added benefit is with this strategy i can actually use my small units for viable board control. It usually allows me to claim 3-4 objectives without throwing away units in maelstrom.
I'd like to ask if anybody could give me some advise about what i can reasonably run my ''Heroes'' into and expect to come out on top?
My Solitaire is better then most peoples, because our store plays that Both Kiss, Caress, Master-Crafted and Shred all bounce across the Solitaires weapon (House rules of the TO's own Harlie army) meaning he can handle more then most. I can expect him to squish 5 Orks a turn without Blitzing. But could i throw him into a 20 man Blob and expect him to grind them down, or would he drown in bodies? I imagine he can beat most Walkers? Would he do 2-3 hull points worth of damage (including grenade throw)?
Similarly can i use the Shadowseer to fight anything more then 5 man scout squads? Can i expect a kill a turn from the Death Jester against MEQ's? I've never just used 3 models in a game before, and especially when they are as fragile as they are, i'd like to know what sort of situations i can put them in and expect good results.
The Solitaire can handle Monstrous Creatures pretty well. He also excels at small elite groups. Big blobs are more the Death Jester's forte.
Psychic Shriek plus the mask of secrets means the Shadowseer can do lots of damage to infantry groups, too.
Death is Not Enough makes the Death Jester hell in a skimmer to board hungers, jump units, or bikes. Especially if your masked Shadowseer is standing nearby...
At this low points level, your Shadowseer can't do much against vehicles, which means your Solitaire is going to take point on beefy vehicles. The Jester Can pick up the slack on light armor, though.
I just wanted to say that... My Solitaire one-shotted a Tervigon tonight and then took another one down with caresses while 9 Gaunts were struggling to defend it. The Solitaire only took one wound in the process. A Shadowseer one-shotted a Malanthrope with Mirror of the Minds.... Peal of Discord concussing Genestealers was *perfect* because they hurt Harlies... Fun match and a good win with a Cegorach's Revenge formation.
I'm really impressed with Shadowseer powers, the only one I don't really like is Veil of Tears, I find it useless.
Played mono-harlequins not long ago. 1500 game, tried out Cegorarch's revenge.
Spoiler:
solitaire [haywire nades]
3 shadowseers [ml 2. one with mask]
3 jesters
2*2 skyweavers [haywire cannons]
voidweaver [prismatic]
2*5 players [2 caresses, 2 kisses, masters with caresses - one of them warlord with starmist raiment] + 2 starweavers
7 players [3 caresses, 1 kiss]
Played against an ultramarine player with a squad of 3 demolishers, a formation of 2 wirlwinds with a techmarine, calgar+grav cents in a pod, Telion and a bunch of marines.
I got 1-st turn and the opponent placed his forces in a way i couldn't get to the tanks with haywire blasts from skyweavers. He also decided to reserve all his tactical marines. As he said afterwards, he felt that i had too many shuricannons on board for tactical marines. And probably, he wanted to get rid of death jesters first.
Personally, i see it as a tactical error cause he just did some minor damage with an apoc s10 ap1 blast - stunned a voidweaver and missed everything else. And got basically everything destroyed before his tactical marines had a chance to arrive turn 2. He gave up turn 3.
Some things of note:
-Cegorarch's revenge is a great formation. I think it's the way to go if you're running Harlequins in 1500+ games. Run after charge and rerolling 1-s on invuls + it basically contains all the stuff you'd need anywayz. Well, star and voidweavers aren't really worth their points but they're still functional and not all that bad. Haywire blasts are fine. Shuricannons are fine. 4++ with rerolling of 1-s is fine. Still too costly but not horribly so. Other stuff is plain good.
-Shadowseers are an all-star and a moving force of harlequins. Can't do stuff without them, basically. Never enough WC in a mono list.
-Solitaire is a mixed bag. Yes, it's fast and can bring pain to the backlines but he's really not all that killy and durable. In this game, he didn't manage to kill a techmarine in one go. His statline is deceptive. You can get carried away with cool numbers but than you get 1 rend and that's it for 150 pts. Than you got to make a bunch of 3++ cause he inevitebly gets to make a bunch of saves with his t3.
-Didn't get any benefits of starmist raiment cause got charged before having an opportunity to run. I think it might be a good thing to tank some wounds in challenges.
-Prismatic cannon is garbage. I'll stick with basic haywire blast next time. On the other hand, too many haywire blasts can be not good cause you could end up playing vs stuff without vehicles. I'll probably wtill run a voidweaver with a haywire blast but the 2-d squad of starweavers with shuricannons. Never enough shuricannons.
-Transports are paper-thin but 2 shuricannons are nice. 4++ with rerolling ones is also quite good. So, they don't go down as easilly as ork trukks and can perform some decent shooting. Need to be used very carefully cause their full potential is not just delivery.
I tend to prefer masque+Heroes Path to Cegorach's revenge, having played both. The reroll to 5++ save units is really negligible, the big boost is to the Solitaure, and the path gives him a 2+ cover save anyway. I find granting one Shadowseer, death jester and solitaire 2+ saves kind of offsets the reroll 1s when you factor in the board control you get from infiltration and not having to take 3 DJs.
I think 1 DJ with infiltrate to get him exactly where he needs to be to hit a scary enemy unit, who then doesn't have to split the focus of the squad he's in is worth 3 that have to guess where the enemy will be and who die to a stiff breeze.
I still run a Heroes Path in my main eldar list. Usually outflank the shadowseer and the jester, deep strike the solitaire or infiltrate as needed.
As stated, 2+ cover goes a long way. Only a level 1 seer, but having an outflanking shriek with -2 leadership is great.
I still stick with the rose on my solitaire. We already pay a hefty price for him, so a few more points to ensure his kiss is effective is worth it in my books.
In all honesty, if harlequins had an HQ unit, most of their problems would be solved by being able to take a CAD instead of the horrible masque detachment or very restrictive formations for shadowseers, jesters, and the solitaire.
Yeah I was really REALLY hoping the clowns would get something, anything for their heavy slots with the new IA11 book but, alas. Just more toys for the spoilt child of the Eldar triplets, and none for the rejects.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah I was really REALLY hoping the clowns would get something, anything for their heavy slots with the new IA11 book but, alas. Just more toys for the spoilt child of the Eldar triplets, and none for the rejects.
Did you just call Harlequins the rejects? The mind boggles...
As opposed to CWE, who already have dozens of options and best-in-game options at that? How hard would it have been to give either of them access to the shiny FW stuff for the corsairs that CWE just get by default?
mercury14 wrote: Anyone still playing Harlequins? Winning anything? FLGS tournaments?
I'm actually in the middle of a protracted ITC tournament sponsored by our FLGS. There were 18 participants in it who all submitted 1850pt lists. We had two-week periods to get our matchups completed before advancing to the next round. Everyone played three games at minimum. Top eight advance to the single elimination playoffs.
I fielded an all-Harlequin Masque Detachment. I would normally do Cegorach's Revenge, but knowing there would be lots of heavy hitting lists out there I decided to try something new for me: two Shadowseers instead of three and a max unit of Skyweavers w/ 4x Zephyrglaives and Shuriken Cannons so i can have a little more range in my list than I normally would.
My first matchup was against Dark Angels w/ Space Wolves allies. I managed to pull out the victory in Turn 6, 5-1. My second matchup was against an all-Dark Angels list with several Ravenwing Knights units and a Deathwing Knight unit that was 11 strong (counting the Librarian added to it), plus the Land Speeder formation that allowed it to make Overwatch shots against a unit charging one of its friendly units within 24". I wound up winning that one 11-0 after Turn 6. With a record of 2-0, I went up against a 2-0 Necron Decurion list with a Reclamation Legion, a Royal Court and a Living Tomb w/ just an Obelisk in it. Had the game ended on Turn 5 I would've won 10-2. Had it ended on Turn 6 there was a chance it could've ended in a draw. It went to Turn 7 and I lost 11-0. In the end I made the playoffs as the #6 seed. My next matchup is against a Grey Knights first strike list with Flesh Tearers allies and a Culexus Assassin (the opponent went 2-0-1 for the #3 seed).
All in all, I'm pleased with how the mono-Harlequins list is performing. I went in thinking I would be fortunate to get one win and suffer a couple hard luck losses. As it turned out it's gone much better.
koooaei wrote: That's awesome! Do you find melee jetbikes without grenades any good? Are you running troupes in transports?
I used to always arm my Skyweavers with Haywire Cannons but needed to shed points if I wanted to field a full unit of 6. As I still wanted to have some Haywire Cannons, I shifted the burden to the Voidweavers, which I had always previously equipped with Prismatic Cannons. This shift actually paid off handsomely and allowed more flexibility by the Skyweavers from a defensive standpoint. Before I was reluctant to lose Blast shots by Jinking. With Shuriken Cannons I could feel more comfortable about Jinking to improve longevity as I still had a chance--albeit small--to get some shots in on targets of interest.
I only run one Troupe in a Starweaver, which is not dedicated and fills out the second Fast Attack slot of the Masque Detachment FOC. The other two Troupes are on foot.
MrFlutterPie wrote:Sounds like the clowns did good. Can you tell us your list and a bit more details about the battles?
Here's the list I used, all part of one Masque Detachment:
FAST ATTACK Starweaver
Skyweavers (6) w/ 4x Zephyrglaive/ShurCan, 2x Star Bolas/ShurCan
HEAVY SUPPORT Voidweavers (3) w/ 3x Haywire Cannon
ELITE 2x Death Jester w/ Haywire Grenades
Shadowseer w/ ML2, SP, Miststave, HGL, Mask of Secrets
Shadowseer w/ ML2, SP, Miststave, HGL, The Laughing God's Eye
GAME #1 This was against a DA/SW list that had a Deathstar composed of Ravenwing Command Squad, a Librarian on a Bike (warlord) and two Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves. It also had a second Librarian in Terminator armor w/ 5 Deathwing Knights, a Nephilim Jetfighter, a Devastator Squad w/ 4 Lascannons, 2 basic Blood Claw squads and two basic Tac Squads. This game was a lot of me shuffling around taking out targets of opportunity (all the Tac Squads and Blood Claws) rather quickly as they were completely wiped out by the end of my Turn 3 (I went first). It took until Turn 4 to get rid of the Terminator squad. In the end his Psychic Phase caused all manner of problems for the Skyweavers as they got hit with the power that forced them to make a Ld check to move, shoot, run, assault, etc., so I couldn't beat feet as quickly as I wanted to. We both tied on the Primary objective but I wound up winning on the secondary. The only models he had left were the Jetfighter, one Wolf Lord (split off for Linebreaker), his Warlord, the Apothecary on the bike and one other bike. I had a Starweaver, the Mask of Secrets Shadowseer, and 5 Players from the Embrace unit along with my Warlord.
GAME #2 This was against an all-DA army that had an Interrogator Chaplain on a bike, 2 5-strong Scout Squads, a 6-strong Ravenwing Command Squad w/ the Company Banner and Apothecary, a 5-strong Ravenwing Knights squad, a Fire Raptor Gunship, The Ravenwing Support Squadron w/ 3 Land Speeders and a Darkshroud, and a Deathwing Strike Force w/ a Librarian and 10 Deathwing Knights w/ the Perfidious Relic of the Unforgiven. My opponent is a very strong player, so the first round was quite interesting. I went first, advanced my Skyweavers forward and did a EJB Assault move back towards my board edge but still within striking distance from his Warlord unit. I did have a number of other Troupes deliberately nearby in the event he charged. He recognized it and didn't take the bait. Rather, he advanced enough to get shots in on my Skyweavers and that was about it. But there were two units he inched too far forward: one Scout Squad and his Ravenwing Knights. My Kiss unit takes out the Knights while the Solitaire darts from the middle of the board to the NE to take out the Scout Squad. The turning point of the game took place when he went after my Solitaire, which was claiming an objective he needed to secure this turn for Maelstrom points. The Solitaire had one wound on it and only two of his bikes had LoS to shoot at it, so he took pot shots... and killed the Solitaire. Unable to charge anything, his Warlord unit was stranded in the open for a multi-charge by my Caress and Warlord units. His other Librarian with the Deathwing Knights arrived on Turn 2, but his dice betrayed him severely as the Kiss unit took out 7 of them on the charge in Turn 2. The rest of the game was clean-up, though his Fire Raptor did its share of pain infliction before he conceded on Turn 5.
GAME #3 This was against the Necrons w/ the Royal Court (1 Overlord, 1 Lord and 1 Cryptek), an Obelisk and a Reclamation Legion w/ three Warrior units (one in a Ghost Ark), 10 Immortals in a Night Scythe, 10 Lychguard and 3 Ghostblades. As the game proceeded I got off a dual charge on his LychStar with my Warlord's Embrace unit and the Kiss unit on Turn 2, though the Charge roll for the Embrace unit was poor as only three d3s were rolled. He stuck in the game longer than I wanted him to, so on Turn 3 my Caress Troupe swapped places with the Kiss unit to do a joint charge with the Embrace Troupe and the Solitaire. Meanwhile, the Obelisk made quick work of the Voidweavers on Turn 2 and redirected its attention to the rest of my force to the W of it. My Skyweavers, which had been turbo-boosted to the extreme NW corner of the board on Turn 1, and Kiss unit took out his two foot Warrior units while the trio of Solitaire, Caress Troupe and Embrace Troupe reduce the Lychguard to just the Overlord. I made the mistake of not going after the Obelisk then with the Caress Troupe and Solitaire after Hit & Running out of combat, deciding instead to have the Caress unit recharge the Overlord and the Solitaire charge the Immortals in the SE quadrant of the board (Solitaire wiped them out in one turn, by the by). That was the extent of my good fortune as the Obelisk, Ghost Ark and Warriors embarked on it took out the rest of my army bit by bit. By the end of Turn 7 I had just a Death Jester left on the board. Had it ended on Turn 5 I would've had both Primary and Secondary Objectives. Had it ended on Turn 6 I would've had the Secondary Objective and Linebreaker with a good chance to tie it up. Instead, I lost 11-0.
Tactically speaking the specialization of Troupes with one of each Melee weapon purchase is ideal and has some redundancy between the three so you're not completely screwed against all match-ups:
Embraces: I always pick my Warlord from this Troupe because there's no point not running and having the Warlord with the Starmist Raiment is tremendously useful. This unit always goes against weaker armor units or low front and side AV vehicles for quick wreckages I can then use as cover before advancing to the next target. It's also tremendously strong against units that have abilities that make it hard to hit the target such as units with Invisibility or perhaps the Culexus Assassin that requires 5+ To Hit due to the automatic setting of WS to 1. The Warlord's Caress and Haywire Grenades provides support against vehicles and 2+ armor, as well.
Kisses: Great against 2+ armor and high T targets, but also very useful against vehicles with low to mid rear AV values. The Troupe Master's Cegorach's Kiss improves the chance of doing damage while his Haywire Grenades offer assistance against high AV vehicles if forced to deal with that.
Caresses: This is the specialist Troupe against elite targets like Terminators and MCs. I usually want this unit to get its shots off so it's the one that embarks on the Starweaver. Fleshbane is great against Gargantuans and high T targets should I encounter any. Caresses are great against 2+ armor, high T and vehicles of any kind, so it's the one most likely to go after Super Heavies. Equipping the Troupe Master with the Storied Sword offers greater potency against 3+ armor targets and more saving throws thanks to the +1S coupled with Furious Charge. That he also has the Haywire Grenades improves the chances of getting an additional HP off the charged vehicle.
Volume fire from the Skyweavers with high S shots are just great in general and an all-purpose weapon against most targets. The Voidweavers' primary role is to attract fire and survive long enough for the rest of the army to engage. I improve its ability to survive by making it a full squadron of three, something I know is unpopular but really comes in handy. You have to treat the Voidweavers as a lost unit, so lose it in the best possible way for the rest of the army.
koooaei wrote: That's awesome! Do you find melee jetbikes without grenades any good? Are you running troupes in transports?
Tactically speaking the specialization of Troupes with one of each Melee weapon purchase is ideal and has some redundancy between the three so you're not completely screwed against all match-ups:
Embraces: I always pick my Warlord from this Troupe because there's no point not running and having the Warlord with the Starmist Raiment is tremendously useful. This unit always goes against weaker armor units or low front and side AV vehicles for quick wreckages I can then use as cover before advancing to the next target. It's also tremendously strong against units that have abilities that make it hard to hit the target such as units with Invisibility or perhaps the Culexus Assassin that requires 5+ To Hit due to the automatic setting of WS to 1. The Warlord's Caress and Haywire Grenades provides support against vehicles and 2+ armor, as well.
Kisses: Great against 2+ armor and high T targets, but also very useful against vehicles with low to mid rear AV values. The Troupe Master's Cegorach's Kiss improves the chance of doing damage while his Haywire Grenades offer assistance against high AV vehicles if forced to deal with that.
Caresses: This is the specialist Troupe against elite targets like Terminators and MCs. I usually want this unit to get its shots off so it's the one that embarks on the Starweaver. Fleshbane is great against Gargantuans and high T targets should I encounter any. Caresses are great against 2+ armor, high T and vehicles of any kind, so it's the one most likely to go after Super Heavies. Equipping the Troupe Master with the Storied Sword offers greater potency against 3+ armor targets and more saving throws thanks to the +1S coupled with Furious Charge. That he also has the Haywire Grenades improves the chances of getting an additional HP off the charged vehicle.
I've looked at the numbers on the three weapons and the caress always just seems to be the most versatile and worth the 30pts extra for 10 men. The fact that all of the caresses power comes from 6s-to-hit makes it seem just as good against 'hard to hit' targets and auto glancing on a six makes it good against tanks as the other two. It's then a great deal better than the others against MC and 2+ targets.
You'd be fully mobile all the time still and be able to use the harlies as the punch while you dictate the flow with your 
The death jesters were played wrong this game, no doubt about that. But even if they were played perfectly, what would they have done? They may have put one or two glances on a wave serpent. They might have done a wound to the WK, but he is fearless so no running. They would not have been able to touch the farseer. Really the game went no different with them as it would without which is a lot to say about 60pt models. Against other armies they are still not that great. 3 24'' s6 shots for 60pts is just pathetic. You are lucky to actually score a wound against most units and even if you do kill a model you have to cross your fingers they will fail the moral test. I would much rather take more shadow seers.
Having never played against a fire raptor and finding out what it did made this game significantly harder, as without allies, I had no anti-air whatsoever.
