At 1850 points as guard I'd feel like I could have a fun game with 38 autocannons and two manticores against that kind of jetbike spam.
If somebody is relying on spam like that, then once you crush it you derail their plans.
Sure, it's opening the door to poor form beyond 5th edition Space Wolves missile spam, but in reality friends rarely want to play a game that isn't fun and I can't get behind the idea that this is the end of 40K, which I've read a lot today!
Davylove21 wrote: At 1850 points as guard I'd feel like I could have a fun game with 38 autocannons and two manticores against that kind of jetbike spam.
If somebody is relying on spam like that, then once you crush it you derail their plans.
Sure, it's opening the door to poor form beyond 5th edition Space Wolves missile spam, but in reality friends rarely want to play a game that isn't fun and I can't get behind the idea that this is the end of 40K, which I've read a lot today!
Okay, so two manticores and 38 autocannons. Not sure how you get all those autocannons, but sure. So you last to turn... 2? How many infantry is that? Let's say the manticore get lucky, roll 3's and get 5 per template. That's 30 wounds. 10 dead Jetbikes. 30 Jetbikes + 800 points of army left. 38 Autocannons is what... 76 Shots, 38 hit. 31.66 wound. 10 Dead.
Okay, so I have 20 Jetbikes and 800 points of army left. The Jetbikes kill your manticores easily. The other 800 points of Eldar does nothing, you kill 10 more jetbikes. Still have 10 plus 800 points. 40 Shots, 30 Hits, 25 Dead Guard. Your AC start to suffer. Next turn, you kill the last 10 jetbikes. Good thing that other 800 points of Eldar wasn't doing anything the whole time.
So yes, if you have a full 38 Autocannons and 2 Manticores against just 40 jetbikes, you will win. I'm pretty sure most 800-1000 point matchup imbalances work out like that though.
Eldarain wrote: It seems really stupid to me to have a competitive (The rulebook only details how things fight and who is the winner at the end) wargame be the framework for your system clearly made to be used narratively.
How is it clear the game is made to be used narratively?
Actually I could see it when discussing something like the Warhost or Decurion for campaign play.
Players write a complete list for, say, 10k points at the outset of the campaign. Limit the number of duplicate options that you can take in the overall list(say something like 3 duplications of any non-Core choice, no duplicate Unique characters) and make players pick and choose what they want to field for each mission.
If a unit is fully destroyed or a character lost, they're gone for the duration of the campaign.
Pretre, let's do a little thinking about how we can counter this instead of abandoning all hope
Yes, they have a 12" move with a 36" range, but that does not guarantee full line of site. People who are actually good at this game know how to position their models, and if I were to do so in a way that forces you to move in order to get full line of site then I've done my job and now you are out of your preferred position, making you more susceptible to charges or high AP shooting of my choice. Terrain is a thing, and if I can use it effectively then all the shooting in the world won't help you unless you come to me.
As for the actual shooting, one unit can only ever kill one other unit every turn, assuming that their roll goes well or at least as expected. you mentioned six units, well six fully upgraded units will cost 1,620 points (this is assuming you're just taking a CAD to maximize your bikes), which leaves you no room for anything other than an HQ and maybe one other character or small unit or something. So if you want to spend that much to have a chance, not a guarantee, of destroying six units with no other type of attack or shooting otherwise, go for it, but a good general will force you to work for that. That army will also be pretty inefficient against MSU mech lists if they're only packing scatter lasers.
And the fact is, you don't have to kill the entire unit, just enough to make them fall back, which is 3 when you're at full strength. And if you're just hanging in the backfield in order to maximize that 36" range then you have a good chance of falling off the board with a 3D6 fall back move. Even if you don't fall off the board, you have to snap fire the next turn, which will cut very badly into your shooting efficiency. Of course it's not a guarantee that they will fall back, but it's a strategy. And please, let's not pretend that they're survivable to the point of immortality, which a lot of people are.
My point through all this though, is that you're not just making a lot of assumptions about the Eldar player and his dice, you're making a lot of assumptions about the opponent and his competence.
Maybe I'm wrong, but it does the game and the player base a disservice when there the first posts immediately after a new rule is previewed are whiny "I'm going to quite playing because this rule is so OP." Before anyone anywhere has even rolled a dice to see how valid that comment is. Even if you guys all think I'm an idiot (and yes, I'm aware of exactly the types of comments I'm opening myself up to with the beginning of this sentence), at least I can feel good if it starts a discussion on ways to counter a unit and stops all the unnecessary crying that is currently going on.
Anyone else remember how Admantium Lance was supposed to be the only tournament list to ever win again? How super heavies would ruin the game utterly? That Thunderwolf cavalry would be the new ultimate death star? How summoning daemons would mean no other unit would ever win again? How homonculus armies were going to be the new DE standard and no one would play with just the base codex? When is it going to be enough that people will stop knee jerking and actually try to think about how to play against and counter some of these things FIRST before losing their minds?
Davylove21 wrote: At 1850 points as guard I'd feel like I could have a fun game with 38 autocannons and two manticores against that kind of jetbike spam.
If somebody is relying on spam like that, then once you crush it you derail their plans.
Sure, it's opening the door to poor form beyond 5th edition Space Wolves missile spam, but in reality friends rarely want to play a game that isn't fun and I can't get behind the idea that this is the end of 40K, which I've read a lot today!
I multiplied by 2/3 rather than 1/3 when coming to failed saves before so auto cannons cause 0.28 wounds each on average not 0.57.
That means 36 autocannons cause 10 wounds. Manticores won't last a turn and don't ignore cover are ap4 and can be countered anyway by spread. Even IG cannot handle losing 89men a turn to just over 1000pts of the opponents force. And crushing it will be almost inpossible with theor range and maneuverability.
pretre wrote: So what's your counter then for
40 Bikes (5 6;'s and a 10)
Seer
Wraithknight
Vauls or FD in WS
Look, if you want to collapse in a corner and cry instead of engaging in 20 minutes of critical thinking to try to come up with tactics, be my guest, but I don't see an auto-lose when I look at this list and, quite frankly, I don't have very much respect for anyone as a player if they can't even be bothered to try.
Eldar opponent will outscore you so only works in matches to the death (which people rarely intentionally play). Also will depend on the sicarans getting LOS blocking cover for their side armour. Oh and no wraithguard or Fragons or D weapons or Avatars or Swooping Hawks with haywire or lots of lances in the opponents army. If all those conditions are met it's a definite counter!
Oh - obviously unbound needs to be allowed. And the unlock character for 3 sicarans accepted as not needed.
It's nice to see everyone who quit the game when the Necrons and Demons and Imperial Knights dropped are still with us to quit again now that the new cheese shipment is here.
It adds nothing to the discussion. If you're really that convinced that the game is broken, why are you here? If there's some sentimental attachment to 40k that keeps you coming back, rather than the quality of the game system, then why agonize over new rules? It doesn't make any sense.
The overwhelming majority of players will be enjoying the game as they always have - on their own terms. I think some folks here could do with a bit of perspective.
I've accepted the OP nature of the new crons (I'm a cron player too), I've accepted Knight armies as part of the game, I've accepted invisibility, Grav cent stars and Flyrants all as part pf the game. Units that can be countered and beaten. Hell - I even used how effective a list was against serp spam as a measure of its strength.
But this is so completely unbelievably broken that I honestly can't think of a serious way that we will be able to beat it, let alone put up a half arsed fight.
The 6 units people have been mentioning have been 2 of 10 and 4 of 5 not 6 of 10. Hence the 160 not 240 shots. And 160st6 36" range shots on platforms with easy ability to get side armour is a VERY effective counter to vehicle MSU.
Despite not lasting long to the firepower, couldn't Drop Pod lists do marginally well against this? Yes, they'd die as much as anything else, but they'd also plop down right next to units of Jetbikes and erase them from the map as they did so. Meltas and Plasmas would ignore armor, while regular bolters or Flamers would weight of fire them. And Sternguard could do even better with their AP3 ammo forcing Jinks and what not.
Troops: Gretchins, min sized. Screen the gunz.
Heavy Supports: max sized big guns squads with KMK HQ: KFF mega armor Mek to give them Slow and Purposeful.
Any thoughts on better guns to use here? Other units to include? How to handle the WKs?
confoo22 wrote: Look, if you want to collapse in a corner and cry instead of engaging in 20 minutes of critical thinking to try to come up with tactics, be my guest, but I don't see an auto-lose when I look at this list and, quite frankly, I don't have very much respect for anyone as a player if they can't even be bothered to try.
I've been talking about it for a lot longer than 20 minutes. If you read through the thread, you'd see that. You'd also see that I have been the one preaching that we need to wait for the codex. So pardon me if I don't meet your respect threshhold.
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Jambles wrote: It's nice to see everyone who quit the game when the Necrons and Demons and Imperial Knights dropped are still with us to quit again now that the new cheese shipment is here.
It adds nothing to the discussion. If you're really that convinced that the game is broken, why are you here? If there's some sentimental attachment to 40k that keeps you coming back, rather than the quality of the game system, then why agonize over new rules? It doesn't make any sense.
The overwhelming majority of players will be enjoying the game as they always have - on their own terms. I think some folks here could do with a bit of perspective.
Agreed. I think yourself amongst them. How many quit posts have you seen here? how many people have you, instead, seen discussing the new rules that we know about and looking forward to find out what the codex brings? Ooooh, that's right.
Troops: Gretchins, min sized. Screen the gunz.
Heavy Supports: max sized big guns squads with KMK HQ: KFF mega armor Mek to give them Slow and Purposeful.
Any thoughts on better guns to use here? Other units to include? How to handle the WKs?
Seems like the guns would go down pretty quick to massed fire. :(
Actually I could see it when discussing something like the Warhost or Decurion for campaign play.
Players write a complete list for, say, 10k points at the outset of the campaign. Limit the number of duplicate options that you can take in the overall list(say something like 3 duplications of any non-Core choice, no duplicate Unique characters) and make players pick and choose what they want to field for each mission.
If a unit is fully destroyed or a character lost, they're gone for the duration of the campaign.
Which is a great, fluffy, and fun idea, but not clearly or explicitly designed for that purpose, which was my point. There's nothing inherently narrative focused about 40k over every single wargame in existence, and revolves entirely around players coming with excellent ideas like yours.
Which is true of any wargame. Though other wargames have the added benefit of campaign systems, recommendations, or scenarios built in.
Requizen wrote: Despite not lasting long to the firepower, couldn't Drop Pod lists do marginally well against this? Yes, they'd die as much as anything else, but they'd also plop down right next to units of Jetbikes and erase them from the map as they did so. Meltas and Plasmas would ignore armor, while regular bolters or Flamers would weight of fire them. And Sternguard could do even better with their AP3 ammo forcing Jinks and what not.
They would take a turn jinking then just move away 30-36" and be out of your range for the rest of the battle. Melta and plasma is ok but not higely efficient against 27pt models with a 4+ jink.
pretre wrote: So what's your counter then for
40 Bikes (5 6;'s and a 10)
Seer
Wraithknight
Vauls or FD in WS
Look, if you want to collapse in a corner and cry instead of engaging in 20 minutes of critical thinking to try to come up with tactics, be my guest, but I don't see an auto-lose when I look at this list and, quite frankly, I don't have very much respect for anyone as a player if they can't even be bothered to try.
Troops: Gretchins, min sized. Screen the gunz.
Heavy Supports: max sized big guns squads with KMK HQ: KFF mega armor Mek to give them Slow and Purposeful.
Any thoughts on better guns to use here? Other units to include? How to handle the WKs?
The guns wouldn't be killing that many models a turn in comparison to the battering they would recieve. Also with the maneuverability of the jetbikes they could effectively just engage one battery at once.
pretre wrote: So what's your counter then for
40 Bikes (5 6;'s and a 10)
Seer
Wraithknight
Vauls or FD in WS
Look, if you want to collapse in a corner and cry instead of engaging in 20 minutes of critical thinking to try to come up with tactics, be my guest, but I don't see an auto-lose when I look at this list and, quite frankly, I don't have very much respect for anyone as a player if they can't even be bothered to try.
pretre wrote: I've been talking about it for a lot longer than 20 minutes. If you read through the thread, you'd see that. You'd also see that I have been the one preaching that we need to wait for the codex. So pardon me if I don't meet your respect threshhold.
If you were so serious about it then maybe you would've address the tactics I put out there and suggested some of your own instead of putting up some list and daring me to counter it as if no matter which kind of list I put out there you weren't going to repeat the number of shots they get and the range of the weapon. You're not being a tactician by repeating the same stats and then moaning that nothing can counter them, you're being a defeatist. And no matter what you believe, you've countered a lot of people trying to actually come up with tactics or being objective with some combination of "Movement + Weapon Rage + Armor Save will trump all other units."
And btw, saying that people should wait for the codex while going on and on about how unbeatable that list is is cognizant dissonance at its worst.
pretre wrote: So what's your counter then for
40 Bikes (5 6;'s and a 10)
Seer
Wraithknight
Vauls or FD in WS
Look, if you want to collapse in a corner and cry instead of engaging in 20 minutes of critical thinking to try to come up with tactics, be my guest, but I don't see an auto-lose when I look at this list and, quite frankly, I don't have very much respect for anyone as a player if they can't even be bothered to try.
Or they can do math faster than you.
Math is not tactics, it gives you an average if all things were equal. A good general will make sure you're not on equal footing.
confoo22 wrote: If you were so serious about it then maybe you would've address the tactics I put out there and suggested some of your own instead of putting up some list and daring me to counter it as if no matter which kind of list I put out there you weren't going to repeat the number of shots they get and the range of the weapon. You're not being a tactician by repeating the same stats and then moaning that nothing can counter them, you're being a defeatist. And no matter what you believe, you've countered a lot of people trying to actually come up with tactics or being objective with some combination of "Movement + Weapon Rage + Armor Save will trump all other units."
And btw, saying that people should wait for the codex while going on and on about how unbeatable that list is is cognizant dissonance at its worst.
Except, as I've said, we've covered this ground in the thread.
Yes, the 160 shots don't all engage one target. Yes, jetbikes die to long range fire. Yes, you can pick off 3 and get a failed morale save. Yes, the Eldar player can be dumb and get charged or shot if he does stupid stuff. Yes, they take up a lot of board space. But... They still outrange most anti-infantry and mulch pretty much anything that isn't AV13.
So, go back and read the thread and then give me a counter to the list that hasn't already been covered and isn't 'Oh well, I'd just play better than the eldar dude.'.
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Yes, they have a 12" move with a 36" range, but that does not guarantee full line of site. People who are actually good at this game know how to position their models, and if I were to do so in a way that forces you to move in order to get full line of site then I've done my job and now you are out of your preferred position, making you more susceptible to charges or high AP shooting of my choice. Terrain is a thing, and if I can use it effectively then all the shooting in the world won't help you unless you come to me.
Except you move your models to put me out of position. Good for you. Your models now take a ridiculous amount of Str 6 fire. They are dead. Where's the charge coming from? A land raider?
Martel732 wrote: "Math is not tactics, it gives you an average if all things were equal. A good general will make sure you're not on equal footing."
The magical tactics argument. And if a good general takes on a good general, we are back to math.
Hardly a magical argument, good general versus a good general will come down to who makes the first mistake and gives up the advantage. Math makes assumptions about all sorts of things that may not show up on the tabletop. If it were all math all the time then there would be no point to playing any tabletop game with dice ever.
It's not all math, but the math can tell us things about units that are independent of the general or even the table. I would argue that the Eldar general with these jetbikes has a hard time giving up the advantage.
Martel732 wrote: It's not all math, but the math can tell us things about units that are independent of the general or even the table. I would argue that the Eldar general with these jetbikes has a hard time giving up the advantage.
I dunno, they could just turbo boost forward to within an inch of their opponent.
Jambles wrote: It's nice to see everyone who quit the game when the Necrons and Demons and Imperial Knights dropped are still with us to quit again now that the new cheese shipment is here.
It adds nothing to the discussion. If you're really that convinced that the game is broken, why are you here? If there's some sentimental attachment to 40k that keeps you coming back, rather than the quality of the game system, then why agonize over new rules? It doesn't make any sense.
The overwhelming majority of players will be enjoying the game as they always have - on their own terms. I think some folks here could do with a bit of perspective.
Agreed. I think yourself amongst them. How many quit posts have you seen here? how many people have you, instead, seen discussing the new rules that we know about and looking forward to find out what the codex brings? Ooooh, that's right.
I wasn't claiming the entire thread was doom and gloom. But I think you'd agree there's more than the usual amount of hyper negative 40k-is-fethed posts here, and especially in the related news thread. I'm not sure what your counterpoint was - that I can't see the forest for the trees or something along those lines? Do you contest that those kinds of posts aren't constructive in any sense? Or that I'm in the wrong for calling them out? You seem to be after the same thing as I am - discussion without the inevitable doom and gloom or trite defeatism. But perhaps I'm asking for too much.
Martel732 wrote: "Math is not tactics, it gives you an average if all things were equal. A good general will make sure you're not on equal footing."
The magical tactics argument. And if a good general takes on a good general, we are back to math.
Hardly a magical argument, good general versus a good general will come down to who makes the first mistake and gives up the advantage. Math makes assumptions about all sorts of things that may not show up on the tabletop. If it were all math all the time then there would be no point to playing any tabletop game with dice ever.
Not taking the maths into account for 40k is like trying to play poker without thinking about the odds. The best poker players don't go all in on a high card because they use the maths to influence their decisions. They may not win a hand that had good odds but they know they did the right thing calling it. Much the same in 40k, you use your mathmatical knowledge to influence you decisions if you are a good general.
And the maths here is screaming broken beyond all belief.
Eldar opponent will outscore you so only works in matches to the death (which people rarely intentionally play). Also will depend on the sicarans getting LOS blocking cover for their side armour. Oh and no wraithguard or Fragons or D weapons or Avatars or Swooping Hawks with haywire or lots of lances in the opponents army. If all those conditions are met it's a definite counter!
Oh - obviously unbound needs to be allowed. And the unlock character for 3 sicarans accepted as not needed.
drop the Errant for an Aecheron and watch the Eldar player cry and spend all his shooting ignoring the rest of your army trying to bring it down because it would wipe out all of the bikes by itself....
Hypothetical: eldar really do start completely dominating (even more than now.). First place at every event is an eldar army. The books that follow don't introduce anything that would threaten their reign.
Event turnout wanes as non-eldar players slowly realize the truth of the awful situation and stop going just to be fodder for their eldar overlords.
What do you think your local tourney's response would be? What about big tourneys and the ITC?
Would they actually attempt to go in scalpel-like and "fix" things? Is banning the whole eldar codex the only recourse? Maybe go to highlander format for all events?
agnosto wrote: drop the Errant for an Aecheron and watch the Eldar player cry and spend all his shooting ignoring the rest of your army trying to bring it down because it would wipe out all of the bikes by itself....
As long as the only thing he brought was jetbikes, sure.
Problem #1: A lot of players don't understand what a fantastic weapon the scatter laser really is. It's easily better than any Imperial heavy weapon and the Eldar already had good platforms for it.
The scatterlaser is so good that in the so-called "down years" of Eldar in 5th, they could still pull upsets by drowning careless GK players in S6 shots and watching save failure commence. It turned out that the Eldar codex in 5th was better against the GK in some ways than BA or SW by just not engaging them and shooting them.
But now we have this. The Eldar were already very hard to beat. This isn't a scrub army getting these bikes. This is just adding diesel fuel the problem of balance.
niv-mizzet wrote: Hypothetical: eldar really do start completely dominating (even more than now.). First place at every event is an eldar army. The books that follow don't introduce anything that would threaten their reign.
Event turnout wanes as non-eldar players slowly realize the truth of the awful situation and stop going just to be fodder for their eldar overlords.
What do you think your local tourney's response would be? What about big tourneys and the ITC?
Would they actually attempt to go in scalpel-like and "fix" things? Is banning the whole eldar codex the only recourse? Maybe go to highlander format for all events?
I don't think it will get that bad. But that's mostly because ITC already banned ranged D and they'll probably stick to it.
Eldar will do well, but the jetbikes won't be enough to make them win every single game.
How was the 7th Fantasy Daemons book dealt with in tournaments? That is the last book which I can remember that was just mind-bogglingly out of touch with the rest of them.
Martel732 wrote: "Math is not tactics, it gives you an average if all things were equal. A good general will make sure you're not on equal footing."
The magical tactics argument. And if a good general takes on a good general, we are back to math.
Hardly a magical argument, good general versus a good general will come down to who makes the first mistake and gives up the advantage. Math makes assumptions about all sorts of things that may not show up on the tabletop. If it were all math all the time then there would be no point to playing any tabletop game with dice ever.
Not taking the maths into account for 40k is like trying to play poker without thinking about the odds. The best poker players don't go all in on a high card because they use the maths to influence their decisions. They may not win a hand that had good odds but they know they did the right thing calling it. Much the same in 40k, you use your mathmatical knowledge to influence you decisions if you are a good general.
And the maths here is screaming broken beyond all belief.
The math said the same thing about TWC, Summoning spam, Admantium Lance, etc etc, ad nauseoum. And then a SM scout army made it to the top table at LVO and lost to Lictors. Math is important and gives you an idea of the strength of units, but it's not the whole story and there are intangibles in this game that people tend to ignore in favor of focusing solely on math.
Martel732 wrote: "Math is not tactics, it gives you an average if all things were equal. A good general will make sure you're not on equal footing."
The magical tactics argument. And if a good general takes on a good general, we are back to math.
Hardly a magical argument, good general versus a good general will come down to who makes the first mistake and gives up the advantage. Math makes assumptions about all sorts of things that may not show up on the tabletop. If it were all math all the time then there would be no point to playing any tabletop game with dice ever.
If I have an army of longbowmen, spear men, and the like, and I face an army of 40000 AD future tech that somehow gets way more than my guys for the same points, how on earth would he ever make a mistake big enough for me to win?
If he has a pulse, he's already on a very drastic advantage. Maybe I can poison his drink before the game?
I don't think I've ever seen a normal troop unit have this much of a quality gap between it and other units in the history of the game.
confoo22 wrote: The math said the same thing about TWC, Summoning spam, Admantium Lance, etc etc, ad nauseoum. And then a SM scout army made it to the top table at LVO and lost to Lictors. Math is important and gives you an idea of the strength of units, but it's not the whole story and there are intangibles in this game that people tend to ignore in favor of focusing solely on math.
No one is debating that player skill has more to do with winning than any other factor. When you combine player skill with overpowered units though...
If these bikes had been around 6 months ago we wouldn't be hearing about lictor and scout armies at tournaments. These bikes make those armies entierly unplayable. That is not a good thing.
Martel732 wrote: "Math is not tactics, it gives you an average if all things were equal. A good general will make sure you're not on equal footing."
The magical tactics argument. And if a good general takes on a good general, we are back to math.
Hardly a magical argument, good general versus a good general will come down to who makes the first mistake and gives up the advantage. Math makes assumptions about all sorts of things that may not show up on the tabletop. If it were all math all the time then there would be no point to playing any tabletop game with dice ever.
Not taking the maths into account for 40k is like trying to play poker without thinking about the odds. The best poker players don't go all in on a high card because they use the maths to influence their decisions. They may not win a hand that had good odds but they know they did the right thing calling it. Much the same in 40k, you use your mathmatical knowledge to influence you decisions if you are a good general.
And the maths here is screaming broken beyond all belief.
The math said the same thing about TWC, Summoning spam, Admantium Lance, etc etc, ad nauseoum. And then a SM scout army made it to the top table at LVO and lost to Lictors. Math is important and gives you an idea of the strength of units, but it's not the whole story and there are intangibles in this game that people tend to ignore in favor of focusing solely on math.
No, summoning spam can't be used effectively in a timed tournament, otherwise it would be very powerful, (seriously, try some untimed matches with an experienced daemon player sometime.). And the top match of lvo wasn't lictors and scouts. It was flyrants and mawlocs vs. centurions plus a psyker/Lysander deathstar. The scouts, swarms, and lictors were really more of the sideshow. The reason he took scouts is fairly obvious. They can outflank near objectives, and they're as durable as tac marines, since everyone has tons of ap3 or better anyway, for less points.
I've been using close combat scouts over assault marines in my BA for a while now for the same reasons. Accomplish the same stuff, die just as easily, and cost less.
agnosto wrote: drop the Errant for an Aecheron and watch the Eldar player cry and spend all his shooting ignoring the rest of your army trying to bring it down because it would wipe out all of the bikes by itself....
As long as the only thing he brought was jetbikes, sure.
True, then all you have to worry about is 850 pts of Strength D shooting.
That guy at the LVO wrote a fantastic list w/ reserve manipulation; he didn't take the brute force method, but he also saw the potential in the Flesh Tearers formation.
As for Eldar... I'm just going to pretend that in this new millennium the Eldar succumbed to She Who Thirsts and now are extinct. Only the Dark Eldar and the mysterious Harlequins continue to elude her.
I'm just not going to accept the fact I pay 20ppm for a troop that is so much worse than a 17ppm one. Or that the 27ppm one in theory will kill my terminator in 1 round of shooting.... AND THEN I'm digging the Skitarii so I'm tossing a force together for them, S6... kinda hurts them. Just isn't going to be fun fighting Eldar when you can't catch them with assault OR 24'' shooting.
10 sterngurad with 2+ ammo and rerolling 1's to hit cause 4.3 unsaved wounds against jetbikes in rapid fire range. 30 cause 12.9 unsaved wounds. The jet bikes then turbo out of 24" range. That cost 765pts to take down 351pts of jet bikes - the rest of which the sternguard now can't catch. The remaining squads being 5-6 strong still makes them very dangerous. Each one still putting out more than a tank commander punisher with hb sidesponsoons at greater range, maneuverability and strength.
That's not counting the cost of 2 more squads required to make the sternguard all come down T1.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Still better than most other options.
Poly Ranger wrote: 10 sterngurad with 2+ ammo and rerolling 1's to hit cause 4.3 unsaved wounds against jetbikes in rapid fire range. 30 cause 12.9 unsaved wounds. The jet bikes then turbo out of 24" range. That cost 765pts to take down 351pts of jet bikes - the rest of which the sternguard now can't catch. The remaining squads being 5-6 strong still makes them very dangerous. Each one still putting out more than a tank commander punisher with hb sidesponsoons at greater range, maneuverability and strength.
That's not counting the cost of 2 more squads required to make the sternguard all come down T1.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Still better than most other options.
k, after they turbo boost, (and don't shoot), I drop the other half of my army on them with plasma forcing them to jink.
At which point my sternguard (in units of 5) can begin pegging the wraithknights on 2+ if its around/was brought.
Poly Ranger wrote: 10 sterngurad with 2+ ammo and rerolling 1's to hit cause 4.3 unsaved wounds against jetbikes in rapid fire range. 30 cause 12.9 unsaved wounds. The jet bikes then turbo out of 24" range. That cost 765pts to take down 351pts of jet bikes - the rest of which the sternguard now can't catch. The remaining squads being 5-6 strong still makes them very dangerous. Each one still putting out more than a tank commander punisher with hb sidesponsoons at greater range, maneuverability and strength.
That's not counting the cost of 2 more squads required to make the sternguard all come down T1.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Still better than most other options.
k, after they turbo boost, (and don't shoot), I drop the other half of my army on them with plasma forcing them to jink.
At which point my sternguard (in units of 5) can begin pegging the wraithknights on 2+ if its around/was brought.
It's worth noting that the bikes now have the Battle Focus rule. The details aren't out yet, but I'll bet it lets them turbo boost and shoot.
A Town Called Malus wrote: And who randomly brought in that Elves needed soulstones to stop slaanesh eating their souls, despite it never being mentioned before.
Uh, what do you think the Waystones on Ulthuan have been for?
That's not new, at all.
Except there are no waystones in Naggaroth, nor had this particular piece of fluff been mentioned in either of the two previous dark elf army books.
I think the best option is to try and down 3 bikes from each squad on t1 and hope they NOPE 3d6 off their board edge. If they pass morale, concede and start game 2.
A Town Called Malus wrote: And who randomly brought in that Elves needed soulstones to stop slaanesh eating their souls, despite it never being mentioned before.
Uh, what do you think the Waystones on Ulthuan have been for?
That's not new, at all.
Except there are no waystones in Naggaroth, nor had this particular piece of fluff been mentioned in either of the two previous dark elf army books.
So what? The Dark Elves have had Slaanesh cults growing within Naggaroth for centuries.
There are Waystones in Athel Loren and the Old World near Elven ruins, dating back pre-Sundering.
Poly Ranger wrote: 10 sterngurad with 2+ ammo and rerolling 1's to hit cause 4.3 unsaved wounds against jetbikes in rapid fire range. 30 cause 12.9 unsaved wounds. The jet bikes then turbo out of 24" range. That cost 765pts to take down 351pts of jet bikes - the rest of which the sternguard now can't catch. The remaining squads being 5-6 strong still makes them very dangerous. Each one still putting out more than a tank commander punisher with hb sidesponsoons at greater range, maneuverability and strength.
That's not counting the cost of 2 more squads required to make the sternguard all come down T1.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Still better than most other options.
k, after they turbo boost, (and don't shoot), I drop the other half of my army on them with plasma forcing them to jink.
At which point my sternguard (in units of 5) can begin pegging the wraithknights on 2+ if its around/was brought.
You can't 2+ poison wk's now. They're gargantuan. That comes with an in-built poison resistance.
And so you have this highly tailored army for the eldar bikes...and then you draw necrons round 1 and lose. Now all the eldar players advance to upper tables while you stay at the lower? Good plan.
(And as I mentioned, the wraithknight laughs at your poison 2+, so you would probably die to the eldar too.)
Yeh not too bad. If you get perfect timing. Tiggy in pod with sternies sounds promising.
But all the eldar player then needs to do is charge a sternguard squad with the wraithknight and wipe out a sternguard squad with the 3 5 man squads that didn't turbo boost. Whilst focusing everything else on the remaining sternguard squad (which will most likely do them severe damage if not wiping them out). Means the squads that turbo boosted (most likely the 2 10 man squads as that will be your top priority) will jink against your new pods. And the eldar player will still have 3 squads of 5 unaffected jet bikes and the rest of his army to deal with the new arrivals next turn.
What am I saying? Why on earth would they turbo boost away? You just caused 13 casualties. That means there are still 27 jetbikes whoch coincidentally kills exactly 20meq. The wraithknight charging the other sternguard squad. The rest of the list will have to make do with destroying the 3 pods until the rest comes in. So you will have lost 30 sternguard and 3 pods for the cost of 13 jetbikes.
Poly Ranger wrote: 10 sterngurad with 2+ ammo and rerolling 1's to hit cause 4.3 unsaved wounds against jetbikes in rapid fire range. 30 cause 12.9 unsaved wounds. The jet bikes then turbo out of 24" range. That cost 765pts to take down 351pts of jet bikes - the rest of which the sternguard now can't catch. The remaining squads being 5-6 strong still makes them very dangerous. Each one still putting out more than a tank commander punisher with hb sidesponsoons at greater range, maneuverability and strength.
That's not counting the cost of 2 more squads required to make the sternguard all come down T1.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Still better than most other options.
k, after they turbo boost, (and don't shoot), I drop the other half of my army on them with plasma forcing them to jink.
At which point my sternguard (in units of 5) can begin pegging the wraithknights on 2+ if its around/was brought.
You can't 2+ poison wk's now. They're gargantuan. That comes with an in-built poison resistance.
And so you have this highly tailored army for the eldar bikes...and then you draw necrons round 1 and lose. Now all the eldar players advance to upper tables while you stay at the lower? Good plan.
(And as I mentioned, the wraithknight laughs at your poison 2+, so you would probably die to the eldar too.)
its just as effective vs necrons, IDC how many saves you get, I'm either wounding on 2+ or 4+ ignoring half your army armor saves, with plently of plas to go around. with 140 pts left over after taking tiggy as an HQ.
I remember back in 3rd edition when people complained about the necron destroyer being OP, in that it was a jet bike with 36" range with a str6 weapon with 3 shots for only 50pts.
This is ludicrous 27pts for a jetbike with 36" range str6 4 shots, and you give it objective secured too, is that a joke dafaq. Destroyers were nerfed due to their power level how the feth did something just like them for half the cost with more dakka sneak into the eldar codex.
If the upgrade was for 1 model in the unit that would be one thing, sort of like a special weapon for marines or guard, but no you can give it to every one. Just when I thought assault was finally working it's way back into the game GW introduces the unit you can't catch and can shoot you from most the board, to boot if you can actually get in range of it with low ap weapons it can jink for a good cover save. How these things don't at least cost 40 points per model is beyond me.
Poly Ranger wrote: 10 sterngurad with 2+ ammo and rerolling 1's to hit cause 4.3 unsaved wounds against jetbikes in rapid fire range. 30 cause 12.9 unsaved wounds. The jet bikes then turbo out of 24" range. That cost 765pts to take down 351pts of jet bikes - the rest of which the sternguard now can't catch. The remaining squads being 5-6 strong still makes them very dangerous. Each one still putting out more than a tank commander punisher with hb sidesponsoons at greater range, maneuverability and strength.
That's not counting the cost of 2 more squads required to make the sternguard all come down T1.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Still better than most other options.
k, after they turbo boost, (and don't shoot), I drop the other half of my army on them with plasma forcing them to jink.
At which point my sternguard (in units of 5) can begin pegging the wraithknights on 2+ if its around/was brought.
You can't 2+ poison wk's now. They're gargantuan. That comes with an in-built poison resistance.
And so you have this highly tailored army for the eldar bikes...and then you draw necrons round 1 and lose. Now all the eldar players advance to upper tables while you stay at the lower? Good plan.
(And as I mentioned, the wraithknight laughs at your poison 2+, so you would probably die to the eldar too.)
its just as effective vs necrons, IDC how many saves you get, I'm either wounding on 2+ or 4+ ignoring half your army armor saves, with plently of plas to go around. with 140 pts left over after taking tiggy as an HQ.
Got any batreps? I'd love to see the ones where you win with that so I can be amused at how badly the cron player played.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Punisher wrote: I remember back in 3rd edition when people complained about the necron destroyer being OP, in that it was a jet bike with 36" range with a str6 weapon with 3 shots for only 50pts.
This is ludicrous 27pts for a jetbike with 36" range str6 4 shots, and you give it objective secured too, is that a joke dafaq. Destroyers were nerfed due to their power level how the feth did something just like them for half the cost with more dakka sneak into the eldar codex.
If the upgrade was for 1 model in the unit that would be one thing, sort of like a special weapon for marines or guard, but no you can give it to every one. Just when I thought assault was finally working it's way back into the game GW introduces the unit you can't catch and can shoot you from most the board, to boot if you can actually get in range of it with low ap weapons it can jink for a good cover save. How these things don't at least cost 40 points per model is beyond me.
Eldar are like the in-game example of "the rich get richer."
My counter to the bikes is 4 death jesters. If he shoots them, I have only lost a 60 point model, if I shoot him, his unit will run 3d6" to the nearest board edge.
Also, a drop pod marine list with nothing but tacticals combat squading would ruin the bikes because they can only kill one unit at a time. The bikes are nonsense,but only because they can laugh at the fluffy counters to them (auto cannons, assault cannons, and heavy bolters/flamers) my bikes have always been 4+ armor, and they will continue to be. The added firepower doesn't really affect me because I have 15 bikes assembled, and I don't plan on breaking them apart to add scatter lasers.
When I updated the V.D.R., I noticed that to upgrade a str10 gun to strD, you added 30 points per shot. With the D weapons losing the old distort property, and gaining strD, I would guess at a 20-25 point increase per shot fired. Another 15 for the flamer option. So a base wraith guard would be 50-55 points per model.
That new Plasma fortification, man it with a Vindicare. Essentially no scatter and since he has ignore cover, precision shots, and -2 to LoS! we have a good chance of deleting a squad a turn. The problem becomes ranged D weapons then and how fast they murder the building.
Eldarain wrote: How was the 7th Fantasy Daemons book dealt with in tournaments? That is the last book which I can remember that was just mind-bogglingly out of touch with the rest of them.
In the short term, different regions dealt with the issues created by that book differently. The daemon book wasn't the only problem army book released in late 7th edition; the vampire counts, dark elf, and skaven army books were also extremely powerful. Vampire counts and dark elves came out in the same year as daemons, similar to how necrons just got decurion party time in their recent book. While daemons were probably the strongest of the broken 7th edition army books, all 4 armies had a chance to do well and win major events. High elves could occasionally still do well too because of ws5 s6 always strikes first stubborn white lions.
As a result of the fact that daemons were one flavor of bonkers broken that was available in late 7th, many American events did very little to deal with the situation. In Europe, by the end of 7th edition, comp had become almost universal, usually in the form of hard limits and army size adjustments based on the old ETC system.
In the medium to long term...
When 8th edition rolled around, most non-Waac players in the US had pretty much put fantasy on hold since getting a pick up game was a sketchy thing. Many of the Waac players, angered at the thought of buying more models to adapt to a new edition when they had only just finished their OP tournament lists in 2008 or 2009 jumped ship to magic the gathering (I have always wondering how much this effect contributed to the spike in North American mtg sales around this time) or war machine hordes. Non-Waac players were turned off and initially terrified by the overpowered spells in some of the lores of magic in the core rule book (sound familiar?) and what was seen as a shameless attempt to get people to buy more models using the steadfast and horde rules. (Interestingly, the horde rule has a minimal impact on competitive fantasy today, and steadfast is the only thing making many units usable at all). After having already declined because of general brokenness and the daemon book in particular, fantasy falls further down in early 8th before rallying later in the edition. If I had to pinpoint when, I would say around when the high elf or daemon books got updated.
In Europe, because TOs and most groups already had well tested and thought out comp regimens in place, they adapted better to the broken of late 7th and the huge rules shake up of 8th. Premeasuring and the new magic system angered Europeans more than Americans in general though so fantasy didn't get by with its popularity unscathed even in Europe.
In the long long term from the release of Mat Ward, our Spiritual Liege's 7th edition fantasy Daemons book?
Even us orks with our lootas(now in heavy support *groan*) can't put out such a stupid amount of high strength dakka while maintaining FOC. You might as well call it cheating unless your army averages AV13 (necron cheese) or can fly (necron cheese) you are pretty damn screwed.
If you have to use WAAC as a term to define a player/play style either the game you're playing is broken or you're not playing to win (e.g. Scrub, per definition). And in a game with opposing players, you're supposed to be playing to win.
Am I the only person that quit 40k and now want to play again just for the hilarity that is this release? If this is all true and not typos, oh man,... XD
Yaavaragefinkinman wrote: Even us orks with our lootas(now in heavy support *groan*) can't put out such a stupid amount of high strength dakka while maintaining FOC. You might as well call it cheating unless your army averages AV13 (necron cheese) or can fly (necron cheese) you are pretty damn screwed.
can your lottas move 12" and still hit on 3s? do your lootas have garunteed 4 shots a shooting phase? do your lootas have marine aromor save + 4+ jink?
put this in perspective,
1 Ravenwing bike is 27 ppm
one kitted out Eldar bike is 27ppm
eldar are faster, more shooty, and only worse in CC (where they shouldn't ever get)
It astounds me that people whos profession (I use that in a lose term) is rules writing for a table top game can be so incompetant at actually writing rules.
This would be something that would get laughed off proposed rules forum in a heartbeat. In fact, I've not seen anything as bad as this on there in a long long time.
How did they allow this to actually pass muster? There must have been somebody double checking it right? It is after all a multimillion pound business, no matter how low our opinion of it is.
Do they have nobody on their staff AT ALL that understands simple maths and/or the competitive scene?
I've never been so shocked at a GW blunder. Not even a tenth as flabberghasted. Not with serpent shields, not with the typhon, not with wraiths. This just completely bowls over all the others. I know I've already said this but it can't be stated enough!
If it's this bad, I'm just going to refuse to play against it and be no worse off. I might play a few less games but I might also convince a few people not to bring cheesy units.
gmaleron wrote: How is this overpowered? All you have to take are vehicles and you will be perfectly fine.
Because
(a) After that 1080 points, you can dump almost the entire rest of the army into AT, and
(b) With Eldar psychic powers, you can (probably) just make all of these jetbikes pseudo-rending and then blast every vehicle through Land Raiders to death.
SharkoutofWata wrote: Not a typo, atleast not on the part of the person putting up the info. Might be a typo in the White Dwarf but that's about the LEAST likely thing to happen, right? And there's no video of the inside of the White Dwarf. Shows it true.
I think we all need to buy more jetbikes.
Will also say, they can all also have Shuriken Cannons too and Bladestorm is still fully active.
we sure it's not a mistranslation?
It's literally there in English in the video that got posted in News & Rumors.
It astounds me that people whos profession (I use that in a lose term) is rules writing for a table top game can be so incompetant at actually writing rules.
This would be something that would get laughed off proposed rules forum in a heartbeat. In fact, I've not seen anything as bad as this on there in a long long time.
How did they allow this to actually pass muster? There must have been somebody double checking it right? It is after all a multimillion pound business, no matter how low our opinion of it is.
Do they have nobody on their staff AT ALL that understands simple maths and/or the competitive scene?
I've never been so shocked at a GW blunder. Not even a tenth as flabberghasted. Not with serpent shields, not with the typhon, not with wraiths. This just completely bowls over all the others. I know I've already said this but it can't be stated enough!
Right with you buddy. I thought they were done surprising me with their incompetence. How wrong I was.
Necrons and Demons and Imperial Knights the sky is eternally falling with you scrubs.
thunderfire cannons, drop pods, flying hive tyrants will all do well point for point against jest bikes
av 13 tanks Sicaran things like that
wolf star, plague drones ,screamer star ,grav star
half the things necrons have
any thing with a 2+ cover and any ability in close combat will wreck face.
Bike spam will do very well against bad players with bad lists but so what their are loads of lists that table non-competitive players by turn 4 this will be one of them.
any one of the above things will do well Against lists with majority of points in bikes.
Against tournament players with tournament lists it will just be one of the competitive options.
Necrons can't close within distance. Deamons will get shreded with their low saves even if they are invuln - t5/6 means nothing against 160 st6 shots. Thunderfires can't kill anywhere near enough jetbikes before they get taken apart. Wolf star, screamerstar and grav star won't be able to cope with that many st6 shots. And aren't going to kill as many in return - especially since they cost much more.
Nothing can actually get into combat with them. They have way more firepower than a sicaran. Drop pods can't pin them down and actually just open their units to gerting slaughtered part of the army at a time. Without guide the 40 jetbikes can down a flyrant a turn with a wound left over.
Yeh you're right - non-competitive players are the only ones that will struggle with 160 st6 shots for 1080pts against them. Anyone who's competetive will obviously be able to roll all the saves they need.
I blame Doomrider, only he could be involved in such unimaginable horror and awesomeness involving bike models and vast amounts cocaine. This hysteria is freaking awesome though.
Everyone keeps hyping their damage - but no one really mentions their vulnerability. Pick out the long range blast or rapid fire platform of your choice. Or AV 13/14. Or mass-flyers. Or etc.
Most races have a High strength low AP platform that should be able to pop a few bikes per turn which should add up pretty rapidly. Or guys that put out a huge number of shots (Pask, Wyvern, Tesla, Orks, etc.)
Yes, they hurt. Yes, they will be mid-range at best most of the game and can dart around. Whooptie.
I love how people have to jump to 30K units to even try to compete here.
Actually, no, I hate it.
Hell, maybe it's a typo. Maybe there's some sort of restriction on these, maybe it's all a really, really well done hoax. But then, it's GW.
I have to question just how far they have to go before some people will stop defending them. Once they've demanded their first borns? Their whole families? Their souls?
liquidjoshi wrote: I love how people have to jump to 30K units to even try to compete here.
Actually, no, I hate it.
Hell, maybe it's a typo. Maybe there's some sort of restriction on these, maybe it's all a really, really well done hoax. But then, it's GW.
I have to question just how far they have to go before some people will stop defending them. Once they've demanded their first borns? Their whole families? Their souls?
Nah. Even if guardians get S: D on their guns people will still trot out the "Git good" or "You guys just need to take X cheesey unit" excuses. As if answering cheese with more cheese is good game design.
liquidjoshi wrote: I love how people have to jump to 30K units to even try to compete here.
Actually, no, I hate it.
Hell, maybe it's a typo. Maybe there's some sort of restriction on these, maybe it's all a really, really well done hoax. But then, it's GW.
I have to question just how far they have to go before some people will stop defending them. Once they've demanded their first borns? Their whole families? Their souls?
Not going to happen. Even once 8th edition hits and requires a phone app and card reader so that you can swipe your credit card to get added effects in game. People will still defend GWlol.
Can we also remember this is a unit in an army which will have guargantuan wraithknights, serpents, warpspiders, fragons, T8 mcs, psudo rending, jsj walkers, haywire jp unit, psychic powers out their ears, hornets and the lynx.
I love that this is finally getting people feta up with GW. If a lot of people leave the game briecause of the Eldar creaming their army, then maybe they'll sharply notice how jacked up their game is.
But probably not. GW is just in it for that cheddar.
Poly Ranger wrote:Can we also remember this is a unit in an army which will have guargantuan wraithknights, serpents, warpspiders, fragons, T8 mcs, psudo rending, jsj walkers, haywire jp unit, psychic powers out their ears, hornets and the lynx.
Hold up, hold up. Have gargantuan WKs been confirmed or are they just still "crazy good" rather than "MY EYES!" good?
TheKbob wrote:I love that this is finally getting people feta up with GW. If a lot of people leave the game briecause of the Eldar creaming their army, then maybe they'll sharply notice how jacked up their game is.
But probably not. GW is just in it for that cheddar.
I can't tell if I love or hate those puns. I think really they make me feel kinda Blue...
Hold up, hold up. Have gargantuan WKs been confirmed or are they just still "crazy good" rather than "MY EYES!" good?
Yes. Page 22 of White Dwarf: "With the release of Codex: Craftworlds, the Eldar Wraithknight as been reclassified by the Departmento Munitorum as a Gargantuan Creature."
It goes on to say that it killed two Deathwing Knights at range, and then the DWK killed it. They actually specifically say that the (surviving) knights hit it with 9 wounding hits in smite mode. So the real question is: how many points is the NEW Wraithknight?
If it's 240, that would be silly great. If it were 400, it might be in the ballpark; if it were 540, then nobody will take one.
I suspect cost close to IK and/or Bloodthirster, perhaps a little more because of ranged D (even if it is a sucky range).
The vets go in the valks, they aim to drop in cover near objectives and simply survive by going to ground with their camo-cloaks. The infantry sticks behind the defence line, and does exactly the same thing as the vets (survive by going to ground). Ratlings do the same as the vets- claim objectives until they die with their annoying cover saves. The three Russes act as a screen to the Malcador to give it a cover save. The valks shouldn't be worried by the jetbikes, being hit on 6s and glanced on 6s. The list would aim to win by having the infantry elements survive long enough to claim objectives/victory points, with the rest of the list having enough fire power to reduce just what the enemy jetbikes can shoot at the infantry.
As for the AV 13/14 wall... you're going to be surrounded. Unless you have AV 13 on the rear armour, you're not going to last long. Does anyone here play against White Scars? Those guys that laugh, and jink away most of the damage they take? These things are 75% of the cost of a Marine Bike with Plasmagun.
A Jetbike, capable of moving 48" per turn [If they need to jink, they move to the other side of the fuckin' board to get away!], that can fire at 36", with a weapon that threatens 90% of units. That can only be shot back at by 10% of units, at VASTLY inferior ability, that simply CAN'T be caught by CC units.
People think they're so easy to down? Think about what you can hit them back with. Think about how you want to hurt them, probably 24" or less to output even remotely similar damage. "I'ma drop pod duders with fancy ammo whad'll smash dem good!" Sure, one unit maybe. Then the others will pound you to dust. And just move away. If you can't control the whole board, they can be in that spot in a single turn. Oh, do you like Hide'n'Seek?
Remember they can pull the Tau trick of popping in and out of LOS, by moving in the Assault Phase. So you thought you could shoot them with battle cannon? Nope! I float back behind this piece of terrain, and you're SoL. You managed to draw LOS on my unit? I Jink, and move to where you can't touch me anymore. Oh, and I can still late-game objective steal. Suck a toad, chump!
So yeah, right now they're making a power change. Not creep, just straight up you have the models or you don't. It's a different game, with just the Necron and Eldar dexes as starters.
PS: My irritation is up, but that list is ***redacted***, and would be annihilated by anything with an armour value. Yes, you can kill JB, but that's it. I'm not sure how expensive that is, but nobody's going to play pure bikes. And once your units are on the ground, the bikes will just move off. There will be other units required to fulfill whatever silly Decurion Requirements there are. Plus, people will want to take some "D"istort weapons, to deal with vehicles, so you'll need to deal with Wraith Units / Vehicles too.
Sunhero wrote: Necrons and Demons and Imperial Knights the sky is eternally falling with you scrubs.
thunderfire cannons, drop pods, flying hive tyrants will all do well point for point against jest bikes
av 13 tanks Sicaran things like that
wolf star, plague drones ,screamer star ,grav star
half the things necrons have
any thing with a 2+ cover and any ability in close combat will wreck face.
Bike spam will do very well against bad players with bad lists but so what their are loads of lists that table non-competitive players by turn 4 this will be one of them.
any one of the above things will do well Against lists with majority of points in bikes.
Against tournament players with tournament lists it will just be one of the competitive options.
I don't know if someone pointed this out already, but the new kit comes with the parts to make all 3 scatter lasers (or shuriken cannons, or w/e).
Just flipping through my WD64 and noticed that (on the side-bar that I didn't snap a photo of, it specifically says that you can upgrade each bike to scatter lasers or shuriken cannons, so there is zero ambiguity).
TheKbob wrote: Not to sound aged, but we should wait to see the full codex.
Worst case scenario, you don't play against Eldar and then it's nacho problem. However, then poor Eldar players are forever provolone.
It's a real Saga of pain, that's Cerneytain. Still, not a lot to Do-olin spillig our guts here. Guess people may be overestimating the Graviera of the situation though
Talys wrote: I don't know if someone pointed this out already, but the new kit comes with the parts to make all 3 scatter lasers (or shuriken cannons, or w/e).
Spoiler:
Just flipping through my WD64 and noticed that (on the side-bar that I didn't snap a photo of, it specifically says that you can upgrade each bike to scatter lasers or shuriken cannons, so there is zero ambiguity).
So GW finally gets around to giving us weapon options in a kit which are actually useful (hello crisis suits, one of each weapon type on sprue) and reflect how units are run (hello crisis suits and two of same weapon type on model) and they start with the crazy overpowered troop choice that is going to seriously dent any remaining semblance of balance first
Great White wrote: So it would seem the only counter to this would be blast markers and getting into assault for the jetbikes, a feat easier said than done
Same way people dealt with bikes before.
Lots of ignore cover and jink denying tactics ahoy.
Also did the 3+ armor save thing roll over to the new bikes?
Great White wrote: So it would seem the only counter to this would be blast markers and getting into assault for the jetbikes, a feat easier said than done
Same way people dealt with bikes before.
Lots of ignore cover and jink denying tactics ahoy.
Also did the 3+ armor save thing roll over to the new bikes?
Talys wrote: I don't know if someone pointed this out already, but the new kit comes with the parts to make all 3 scatter lasers (or shuriken cannons, or w/e).
Just flipping through my WD64 and noticed that (on the side-bar that I didn't snap a photo of, it specifically says that you can upgrade each bike to scatter lasers or shuriken cannons, so there is zero ambiguity).
Great White wrote: So it would seem the only counter to this would be blast markers and getting into assault for the jetbikes, a feat easier said than done
Same way people dealt with bikes before.
Lots of ignore cover and jink denying tactics ahoy.
Also did the 3+ armor save thing roll over to the new bikes?
Yep, still 3+
Man that never made sense to me.
Why both a +1 t and 3+ save :/
O well. Prepare Thy Basilisk artillery carriage with orders and the hell turkeys STAT!
Have bikes ever had such devastating firepower, at such range? I mean, Grav-Bikes need to be within 18", at 33% more expensive per model. Plasma and Multi-Meltas top out at 24", and can even then only flat-out another 12".
JB have way more range, way more shots, comparable ability to harm all but Termies [who are never going to catch them anyhow...] and they can move twice as far in a single turn as Marine bikes can. Further, they can make a move in the assault phase to play peek-a-boo, so you can't even realistically rely on return firepower... at that 36" range.
Yes. There are units that can burn them down. Helldrakes, for example. Drakes that can keep them in firing range for exactly 1 turn before they can't keep them in their fire arc. Really, they're good-to-amazing against 90% of units, while maybe 10% of units are even capable of potentially harming them back. What few units they aren't good at, will likely be sorted out quickly by Wraith Units or Dragons, or Serpents. It's one unit out of the Dex, but does anyone really think the rest of the dex will be total garbage?
Basilisks, that might apply damage 40% of the time, of which half will be jinked / cover saved if they're in cover. Even then, spread out you'll likely only hit 2 or 3 per turn. And a Bassie isn't going to survive even one turn of being shot at by even 5 bikes, cover saves or no.
ImAGeek wrote: So you definitely can give every guy a scatter laser. It being a typo was the last hope and that's been dashed.
I'm more surprised they give you enough scatter lasers in the box...
I'm not, the sprues that they used to use were one for each bike, I imagine it would be pretty easy to shift things around to accommodate the new weapons.
ImAGeek wrote: So you definitely can give every guy a scatter laser. It being a typo was the last hope and that's been dashed.
I'm more surprised they give you enough scatter lasers in the box...
I'm not, the sprues that they used to use were one for each bike, I imagine it would be pretty easy to shift things around to accommodate the new weapons.
They're whole new bikes, the old sprues have nothing to do with these. Not sure what you're saying... I'm not surprised there was room on the sprue for the weapons, but GW rarely give you every weapon to make every combination. You usually get like one of each (as with the Skitarii).
Honestly I'm not particularly worried. 27 points for a t4 3+ save model. Sure they will get a good volley and definitely kill something but then they will die just as quickly to any sort of return fire.
Greggy wrote: Honestly I'm not particularly worried. 27 points for a t4 3+ save model. Sure they will get a good volley and definitely kill something but then they will die just as quickly to any sort of return fire.
You cannot underestimate there insane mobility and range though.
not to mention there jump shoot jump.
Greggy wrote: Honestly I'm not particularly worried. 27 points for a t4 3+ save model. Sure they will get a good volley and definitely kill something but then they will die just as quickly to any sort of return fire.
Yeah, but with their movement and range and number of shots, they could devastate a large amount of your army, so you wouldn't have a lot of shots back
Greggy wrote: Honestly I'm not particularly worried. 27 points for a t4 3+ save model. Sure they will get a good volley and definitely kill something but then they will die just as quickly to any sort of return fire.
Being able to sit 36" back, take advantage of Jink, and redeploy just about anywhere on the board in a single turn is going to make these pretty insane.
Also bear in mind they might have a bunch of models with strD weapons (or potentially strD) so you have to prioritise targets, it's not like they're just gonna have the Jetbikes.
ImAGeek wrote: Also bear in mind they might have a bunch of models with strD weapons (or potentially strD) so you have to prioritise targets, it's not like they're just gonna have the Jetbikes.
I really hope that's a typo, because if it's not then a list with both would have no counter
ImAGeek wrote: Also bear in mind they might have a bunch of models with strD weapons (or potentially strD) so you have to prioritise targets, it's not like they're just gonna have the Jetbikes.
I really hope that's a typo, because if it's not then a list with both would have no counter
Yeah hopefully. Although look how that turned out with the JBs haha.
Greggy wrote: Honestly I'm not particularly worried. 27 points for a t4 3+ save model. Sure they will get a good volley and definitely kill something but then they will die just as quickly to any sort of return fire.
Except it's a T4 3+ save model with 36" range and JSJ. Basic weapons are mostly limited to 24" range, so only your big guns can even attempt to shoot at them. All those bolters/plasma guns/etc might as well not exist except as meatshields for the heavy weapon. So the real comparison with MEQ troops is a 27 point jetbike with a heavy weapon vs. a ~100 point 5-wound marine with a heavy weapon.
Great White wrote: I mean the only way to counter the jet bikes is armor, or drop pods with some shooty units in them
There are a few other options. Tau with their ability to ignore cover should be able to kill them reasonably well, and IG artillery can hurt them if the table has enough LOS-blocking terrain to hide the big guns behind. Conventional tanks are probably the worst counter because D-weapon spam is the other half of the Eldar army and that turns AV 13-14 into a spectacular waste of points.
Great White wrote: I mean the only way to counter the jet bikes is armor, or drop pods with some shooty units in them
There are a few other options. Tau with their ability to ignore cover should be able to kill them reasonably well, and IG artillery can hurt them if the table has enough LOS-blocking terrain to hide the big guns behind. Conventional tanks are probably the worst counter because D-weapon spam is the other half of the Eldar army and that turns AV 13-14 into a spectacular waste of points.
Great White wrote: I mean the only way to counter the jet bikes is armor, or drop pods with some shooty units in them
There are a few other options. Tau with their ability to ignore cover should be able to kill them reasonably well, and IG artillery can hurt them if the table has enough LOS-blocking terrain to hide the big guns behind. Conventional tanks are probably the worst counter because D-weapon spam is the other half of the Eldar army and that turns AV 13-14 into a spectacular waste of points.
Problem is, those Jetbikes can outrange our markerlights thanks to that 12" move and JSJ and all that S6 will shred pathfinders and marker drones without some sort of tanking character to protect them, which can just be avoided thanks to the jetbikes manoeuvrability.
They can also outrange all of our crisis suit weapons. Max range is 36" (Missile Pod)+6" move, a full 6" less than the Jetbikes. Then a Crisis with dual missile pods puts out the same amount of shots as a single scatter laser but comes in at least at 52 points, almost twice that of a Windrider. So you can field ~twice as many windriders as crisis suits for the same points, put out double the shots and be way more manoeuvrable to boot.
So that leaves us with: Fire Warriors - 30+6" range, they'll never hit them. Railhead - has the range but only puts out a single large blast at AP4, not that reliable. Ionhead - Again has the range and this time with a S8 AP3 large blast but gets hot. Broadsides - HYMP suffer the same problem as crisis suits, but with the added problem of snapshots, Railguns get one shot so are basically useless. Kroot - outflanking kroot might actually help, even if just to create danger zones around the board edges and limit the movement of the jetbikes. Riptide - Has the range but is only BS3 and gets hot on its blast. So without markerlight support could fail to fire or scatter off target.
Why are we bothering to consider such a ridiculously unlikely scenario? Every Eldar list is going to spam D-weapons to go with their jetbikes, unless they're deliberately playing a weak list to go easy on a newbie.
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A Town Called Malus wrote: Problem is, those Jetbikes can outrange our markerlights thanks to that 12" move and JSJ and all that S6 will shred pathfinders and marker drones without some sort of tanking character to protect them, which can just be avoided thanks to the jetbikes manoeuvrability.
Remoras, deep striking drone units, etc. Pathfinders aren't the only markerlight source.
Why are we bothering to consider such a ridiculously unlikely scenario? Every Eldar list is going to spam D-weapons to go with their jetbikes, unless they're deliberately playing a weak list to go easy on a newbie.
Do we know the price of the new wraith units? I for one expect a price increase in them, so it may be difficult to spam d weapons and jet bikes in an army
Why are we bothering to consider such a ridiculously unlikely scenario? Every Eldar list is going to spam D-weapons to go with their jetbikes, unless they're deliberately playing a weak list to go easy on a newbie.
Do we know the price of the new wraith units? I for one expect a price increase in them, so it may be difficult to spam d weapons and jet bikes in an army
I feel like expecting something reasonable like that at this point is setting yourself up for dissapointment.
Do we know the price of the new wraith units? I for one expect a price increase in them, so it may be difficult to spam d weapons and jet bikes in an army
No, and this has been my point all along. It's not a disaster (or even a bad thing) if Eldar have the biggest, baddest weapons -- as long as it forces them to have fewer numbers. In their matchup, 1 DWK squad lost 2 members at range, 1 more in cc -- and the two deathwing knights in smite mode smashed the Wraithknight to bits.
If the Wraithknight is costed at higher than the other two common D-strength units (IK and BT), who only have melee D weapons, that's not really such a big deal anymore. If Wraithguard get "the terminator treatment" -- ie comparable to getting a power fist on every unit -- they end up being too expensive for the squad to be ideal. If they force you to buy five 12" D weapons at a high cost, and you'll lose 3 of them getting set up, then you're paying a lot for what's left.
Not only that, but this would fit all the fluff. I mean, Eldar are SUPPOSED to have the best technology. They did rule the galaxy for millions of years, after all, and could reform planets and destroy stars like we change channels on TV. With the junk that Chaos and Tyranids get, the Eldar commanders must surely have been drunk to lose so badly after the Fall. The freaking incarnation of Khorne can't even take on a Wraithknight
Do we know the price of the new wraith units? I for one expect a price increase in them, so it may be difficult to spam d weapons and jet bikes in an army
No, and this has been my point all along. It's not a disaster (or even a bad thing) if Eldar have the biggest, baddest weapons -- as long as it forces them to have fewer numbers. In their matchup, 1 DWK squad lost 2 members at range, 1 more in cc -- and the two deathwing knights in smite mode smashed the Wraithknight to bits.
If the Wraithknight is costed at higher than the other two common D-strength units (IK and BT), who only have melee D weapons, that's not really such a big deal anymore. If Wraithguard get "the terminator treatment" -- ie comparable to getting a power fist on every unit -- they end up being too expensive for the squad to be ideal. If they force you to buy five 12" D weapons at a high cost, and you'll lose 3 of them getting set up, then you're paying a lot for what's left.
Not only that, but this would fit all the fluff. I mean, Eldar are SUPPOSED to have the best technology. They did rule the galaxy for millions of years, after all, and could reform planets and destroy stars like we change channels on TV. With the junk that Chaos and Tyranids get, the Eldar commanders must surely have been drunk to lose so badly after the Fall. The freaking incarnation of Khorne can't even take on a Wraithknight
The problem with the wraithguard scenario is that Eldar have access to pretty reliable methods of getting them where they need to go. The have Waveserpents which, if they haven't been nerfed, are very tough and resilient thanks to the serpent shield and they can also ally in Dark Eldar and get access to a Webway Portal to allow no scatter deep striking.
Eldarain wrote: How was the 7th Fantasy Daemons book dealt with in tournaments? That is the last book which I can remember that was just mind-bogglingly out of touch with the rest of them.
I believe it nearly killed WHFB (among other things, of course).
Why do people keep saying any of these could be typos? GW is terrible at writing rules and gives zero feths about balance. They have admitted as much on multiple occasions. This isn't even close to the first broken/OP stuff they've put out. You guys saw the newcron codex, right? You can surmise about typos or you can start figuring out a counter build. I know what I would spend my time doing. Also, you can just ebay your armies because you're tired of GWs crap.
Talys wrote: I don't know if someone pointed this out already, but the new kit comes with the parts to make all 3 scatter lasers (or shuriken cannons, or w/e).
Just flipping through my WD64 and noticed that (on the side-bar that I didn't snap a photo of, it specifically says that you can upgrade each bike to scatter lasers or shuriken cannons, so there is zero ambiguity).
FLAWLESS VICTORY.
Truly the End Times are upon us, GW wasn't kidding!
Eldarain wrote: How was the 7th Fantasy Daemons book dealt with in tournaments? That is the last book which I can remember that was just mind-bogglingly out of touch with the rest of them.
I believe it nearly killed WHFB (among other things, of course).
Yeah, by the end of 7E it was Daemons on top, a pretty big gap and then Vampire Counts and Dark Elves, Teclis High Elves and trying to play pretty much anything else was pointless. 8E tried to fix that situations and made a whole bunch of changes...but unfortunately bunked a couple of major points that GW never tried to fix, and thus WHFB has largely died.
Talys wrote: If Wraithguard get "the terminator treatment" -- ie comparable to getting a power fist on every unit -- they end up being too expensive for the squad to be ideal. If they force you to buy five 12" D weapons at a high cost, and you'll lose 3 of them getting set up, then you're paying a lot for what's left.
The problem is that, even ignoring delivery options that get them to a target before anyone can shoot at them, if 2-3 D-weapons survive they still have a pretty good chance of making their points back. The average result of three BS 4 D-weapon shots is a dead 250-point Land Raider.
With all the numbers being thrown around I think it would be good to get some perspective.
The current mid-strength high volume unit of choice is of course the wave serpent.
If we consider a wave serpent with TL scatter, Cannon and using its shield (with 5 shots), then vs a tac squad it will deal 3.26 wounds per turn.
5 scatter laser jetbikes (which cost 5 points more, so are very comparable), average 3.7 wounds per turn.
So we can see that the new bikes will have a better damage output than a serpent.
Other things to consider are:
- Bikes engage to full efficiency at 36 range (the serpent has to be in 24 to use the cannon, but has a longer range with the shield).
- Have no additional costs - the waveserpent needs to spend at least another 65 points to get Dire avengers.
- Jetbikes can benefit from guide or prescience, taking their average wounds vs marines up to 4.9 a turn (this means a 10 man squad will almost wipe a whole tac squad a turn if it has re-rolls).
- JSJ. I hope people fully realise the consequences of having JSJ on a mobile 36 inch range platform. Many armies will never have a chance to put shots on the bikes.
- Bikes have a faster flat out/ turbo speed.
- Serpents are immune to most barrage weapons like wyverns, bikes are not.
- Heldrakes don't bother serpents, but can potentially decimate bikes.
All in all, it is my conclusion and opinion that jetbikes will be more competitive than serpent spam, and even less fun to play against.
For another comparision to a different mid-strength volume unit, consider a broadside.
A single Broadside vs marines (without markerlights) will do 1.5 wounds per turn.
2 bikes (worth 11 points less than a broadside) will do 1.48 wounds.
Eldar have basically got a slightly less durable (not sure about this actually, bikes have a worse save, but do get jink), but highly mobile JSJ broadside unit.
When the sky is falling, all you can do is hope. Hope that there's been a terrible mistake. Hope that it's just a bad dream. Hope that you can actually get a game with your favorite army.
As far as counters go, Deep-striking sounds like the best. You can get up in their face instantly, and can take advantage of the individual jetbikes' low durability. They're only as tough as Tac marines.
The only problem is killing enough to whether the inevitable storm of retaliatory fire...
If this codex is bad as it seems, and it looks like it is. I say we all band together and refuse to play Eldar players. It doesn't matter if they have cheese or not. GW should know never to do this again, and Eldar players never being able to get a game is that solution. Seems harsh the innocent Eldar players have to suffer, but that's the cost of nerfing to show them how fething insane this is.
Yeah I'll "hope" it all ends up being balanced. Yet I'll be prepared to turn down all Eldar players.
Worked when Fish of Fury was around and it got their attention. Will work now. I'm a Tau player as well.
As a long time Eldar players, I don't see the need to run that many Jetbikes, but to each their own. However, to see GW make a fluffy and hard hitting army is something I'm really excited for. I look forward to seeing the massed Saim Hann styled army on the table.
Gamgee wrote: If this codex is bad as it seems, and it looks like it is. I say we all band together and refuse to play Eldar players. It doesn't matter if they have cheese or not. GW should know never to do this again, and Eldar players never being able to get a game is that solution. Seems harsh the innocent Eldar players have to suffer, but that's the cost of nerfing to show them how fething insane this is.
Yeah I'll "hope" it all ends up being balanced. Yet I'll be prepared to turn down all Eldar players.
Worked when Fish of Fury was around and it got their attention. Will work now. I'm a Tau player as well.
I think we should go one step further and not play Canadian players either. That'll show 'em.
Gamgee wrote: If this codex is bad as it seems, and it looks like it is. I say we all band together and refuse to play Eldar players. It doesn't matter if they have cheese or not. GW should know never to do this again, and Eldar players never being able to get a game is that solution. Seems harsh the innocent Eldar players have to suffer, but that's the cost of nerfing to show them how fething insane this is.
Yeah I'll "hope" it all ends up being balanced. Yet I'll be prepared to turn down all Eldar players.
Worked when Fish of Fury was around and it got their attention. Will work now. I'm a Tau player as well.
That's a bit too harsh. If you want to restrict eldar players, why not just suggest them using a 6-th ed dex?
I don't know why D-weapon WG are even being discussed.
You want to crap on all the armor your jetbikes can't kill? In an 1850 point list you've got almost 800 points to spend on Fire Dragons with Webway Portal Deldar for scatterless deep-striking shenanigans. Kiss all your enemy armor goodbye turn 2.
Trying to spam AV13+ is the last thing I would do against Eldar, and that's not even considering that heavy armor spam lists are crap in a TAC environment, meaning that even if it helps you hold on against Eldar, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage against everyone else.
BlaxicanX wrote: I don't know why D-weapon WG are even being discussed.
You want to crap on all the armor your jetbikes can't kill? In an 1850 point list you've got almost 800 points to spend on Fire Dragons with Webway Portal Deldar for scatterless deep-striking shenanigans. Kiss all your enemy armor goodbye turn 2.
Depending on how the D weapon rule is implemented to the their weapons wraithguard might be a superior choice.
If every shot is a str D, and not a random chance, then they would be a strong counter to not only vehicles, but MCs as well.
For some folks who don't play as much, sure. It will take some adjustment for folks once they see that many jetbikes, but things like LD8 and the fact it's only an MEQ stat is not overly impressive. It will be good, but good players find a way to get around it. Heck, a standard tourney style Tyranid will be challenging.
The new Khorne Demonkin codex is scary. Flesh Hounds are seriously rude now as they lost Demonic Instability, still Scout 12" and can add Chaos Lords to them (IIRC, will make them fearless on top of everything else). 20-30 Scouting Flesh Hounds were scary in the old codex and they had Demonic Instability.
Superfriends deathstar will still be a threat, even with D shot weapons (which your list doesn't have enough of). That list is designed to handle things like multiple IK.
MSU still can give this kind of army fits. At the end of the day, I'm not overly worried as I'll be able to adapt to a new strategy.
Lots of folks aren't going to cry the sky is falling. They will look at is as a challenge and figure it out, as it has been over the years.
BlaxicanX wrote: I don't know why D-weapon WG are even being discussed.
You want to crap on all the armor your jetbikes can't kill? In an 1850 point list you've got almost 800 points to spend on Fire Dragons with Webway Portal Deldar for scatterless deep-striking shenanigans. Kiss all your enemy armor goodbye turn 2.
Depending on how the D weapon rule is implemented to the their weapons wraithguard might be a superior choice.
If every shot is a str D, and not a random chance, then they would be a strong counter to not only vehicles, but MCs as well.
Oh, certainly. My point was more in reference to the "well Wraithguard might cost a bazillion points now" argument.
Even if Wraithguard and Wraithknights end up being priced so ridiculously high that they're balanced, AV13-spam lists still won't be a reliable counter to the scatter-bike spam lists.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Oh well, I play itc format and they banned range d, so I don't have to worry, I'm sure we can curve thisvtoo.
Pretty sure that's going away. I'm glad for that, banning ranged strength D was a dumb change to begin with. Then they banned all eldar FW but allowed imperium to use a bunch of theirs. Also they nerfed invisibility. Invisibility was a counter to ranged strength D. Rather than make people use those counters, they just banned one and nerfed the other. Every time you ban something, something else becomes top dog. Keep it up and everyone is allowed to have troops in basic transports (except serpents) and non-named character HQs. It's not like ranged S: D was dominating the game to begin with. Eldar had a few models that could take it but the lynx is really the only one that would be allowed based on point limit. Comps just lead to more comps. Unless something is so stupidly OP and broken that it invalidates entire armies (old transcendent c'tan) I think the meta will evolve to counter it.
Gamgee wrote: If this codex is bad as it seems, and it looks like it is. I say we all band together and refuse to play Eldar players. It doesn't matter if they have cheese or not. GW should know never to do this again, and Eldar players never being able to get a game is that solution. Seems harsh the innocent Eldar players have to suffer, but that's the cost of nerfing to show them how fething insane this is.
Yeah I'll "hope" it all ends up being balanced. Yet I'll be prepared to turn down all Eldar players.
Worked when Fish of Fury was around and it got their attention. Will work now. I'm a Tau player as well.
That's a bit too harsh. If you want to restrict eldar players, why not just suggest them using a 6-th ed dex?
This isn't about the players. It's about GW and sending a message. Sometimes the most harsh loud donkey-cave dickish actions are the only things that get the attention of people. It's the only way. Even if my best friend played Eldar I would not play with him anymore. I have to be equal in my dealings. I've had enough of this BS favouritism.
Only the harshest methods ever seem to work these days. Eldar Codex is so far gone it doesn't need a nerf. It need's a fething nerf nuke before it destroys the entire 40k game. Never has this game balance and competitive spirit been so close to the end as it is now. Not even fish of fury was this bad.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Oh well, I play itc format and they banned range d, so I don't have to worry, I'm sure we can curve thisvtoo.
Pretty sure that's going away.
Uh...that's brand new this tournament season actually. Was just voted for and enacted like...a week or two ago.
And I would be perfectly happy if the ITC guys were to muck around under the game's hood a bit more liberally so that every tourney isn't constantly won by the same 2 or 3 armies, sometimes getting an upset by one of another 3 or so.
Just like some people are considering not playing against eldar, I just won't play ITC format tournaments as long as they're going to drop the banhammer on everything. How many armies with ranged D weapons dominated an ITC event last year? How about invisibility? WOTC bans cards when they dominate the meta, not when they're just good but can be countered. Wave serpents were far more dominant than ranged D weapons, especially considering 90% of ranged D is a LOW slot, and 75% of those cost too many points to be taken in ITC due to the LOW points comp.
If the codex is this broken and nothing indicates it won't be. I WON'T play Eldar at all. If it is broken and it will be nerf nuke as I said earlier will be needed.
There are 2 general feelings I want to address here. Firstly there is the point that people are suggesting it might not be so bad if it is not that easy to access D weapons for that AT... Have we forgotten Fire Dragons, Swooping Hawks, WarpSpiders and st8 and st9 lances avaliable to the majority of Eldar units?
Second, people keep pointing out pod armies as a counter. I pointed out earlier on that if you take 3 full strength sternguard units (the best counter arguably), you will kill 13 bike on average. The remaining 27 bikes will kill 20 sternguard on average. Leaving the rest of the eldar force to deal with the remaining unit. So the marine player will be left with scraps of the first half of their army (if not tabled) before the second half even sets foot on the battle field. Not a great trade for an average of 13 jetbikes.
Yeah everyone saying that it's fine because there are counters to Jetbikes, well yeah there are. But their Jetbikes are cheap enough that they can also fit in a bunch of stuff to counter your counters. I said that earlier specifically saying that they might be able to spam D weapons alongside the Jetbikes, but that was like a worst case scenario, even if they can't there's still a whole bunch of other effective stuff to take out anything you bring to deal with the Jetbikes.
Punishers with HB sponsons, 6 in for a bit less than the 1080. 174 shots 87 hits 57.4 wounds 18.9 unsaved wounds they delete almost 2 squads per turn if they can get in range. Only weakness to the bikes is on rear armor, which the bikes would delete almost 11 LRBT's a turn with the full 160 shots, but if you can make the terrain work it would be a pretty good counter. Hell use the saved points for an ADLand park with your backs to it. Or roll the LRBT's butt to butt across the board. Sure the other guy has 800 points of anti-tank to work with. But you have the same points to take out whatever their counter is. Or go with the ADL idea and use the cover save and pray you survive. Not saying its ideal but its a pretty good counter in a vacuum. Slow-moving and not obsec, but a counter.
ImAGeek wrote: Yeah everyone saying that it's fine because there are counters to Jetbikes, well yeah there are. But their Jetbikes are cheap enough that they can also fit in a bunch of stuff to counter your counters. I said that earlier specifically saying that they might be able to spam D weapons alongside the Jetbikes, but that was like a worst case scenario, even if they can't there's still a whole bunch of other effective stuff to take out anything you bring to deal with the Jetbikes.
Thatguyhsagun wrote: they delete almost 2 squads per turn if they can get in range.
And they will never get in range, so this comparison is pointless. A unit with 6" movement speed and 24" range will never get to shoot at a unit with 12" movement speed, 36" range, and 2D6" JSJ after shooting.
Plus, good luck winning the game after D-weapon spam kills your LRBTs just as easily as they'd kill grots.
Toofast wrote: Just like some people are considering not playing against eldar, I just won't play ITC format tournaments as long as they're going to drop the banhammer on everything. How many armies with ranged D weapons dominated an ITC event last year? How about invisibility? WOTC bans cards when they dominate the meta, not when they're just good but can be countered. Wave serpents were far more dominant than ranged D weapons, especially considering 90% of ranged D is a LOW slot, and 75% of those cost too many points to be taken in ITC due to the LOW points comp.
I can point out a specific couple instances where that isn't true. WOTC banned fact or fiction in vintage as soon as they released it because they knew it would combo too well and break the game. When they accidentally messed up and released skull clamp, they sent it packing asap, being one of the few "banned in standard" cards to exist in modern magic, and they didn't wait to see how the meta would deal with it before doing it. I'm not sure about any others, because I haven't been in the tourney magic scene in several years. (I did spend my time top 8ing PTQ's and did a year as a DCI judge.)
As has been said many times, even by themselves, GW takes no interest in making a fair balanced game between the different armies. The ITC guys seem to be trying to preserve the game as much as possible, while surgically extracting the bits of NOPE that GW left in there. I believe the game NEEDS a balancing force like this. Sometimes that means that ridic stuff just needs to be amputated to save the rest. So be it. I think ranged D is one of those things, and invis is another.
Toofast wrote: How many armies with ranged D weapons dominated an ITC event last year?
Weren't D-weapons already banned (or at least only available on the bad LOW options like the Shadowsword)? It's kind of hard to dominate events when you can't use something.
How about invisibility?
Who really cares? Even if invisibility is somehow balanced in theory playing against it isn't even close to fun for most people. Modifying it a bit to keep the basic concept but remove the worst of GW's stupidity is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
ImAGeek wrote: Yeah everyone saying that it's fine because there are counters to Jetbikes, well yeah there are. But their Jetbikes are cheap enough that they can also fit in a bunch of stuff to counter your counters. I said that earlier specifically saying that they might be able to spam D weapons alongside the Jetbikes, but that was like a worst case scenario, even if they can't there's still a whole bunch of other effective stuff to take out anything you bring to deal with the Jetbikes.
Agreed heartily. It's just normal army design for me to spend 1/2 to 2/3 of my points on my attack strategy, and then the rest on things to stop things that would hard counter my strategy.
For just one example that doesn't really cost anything, the bikes could easily pull some reserve shenanigans if you have a devastating alpha strike, such as pods.
Nearly any issue I have ever witnessed playing 40K has been at the FLGS. The best 40K I get to play is at larger, two day events. Win or lose, they have always been a much better and more enjoyable experience.
LordBlades wrote: Or rather most top players draw most of their fun from winning. You don't enlist in a tournament to have fun games, you enlist in a tournament to win.
But what's the point of winning if the whole thing is just a masochism contest? You're certainly not making any money playing 40k, so is having a 'W' mark next to your name really so enjoyable that it justifies 2-3 hours of a terrible game?
LordBlades wrote: Or rather most top players draw most of their fun from winning. You don't enlist in a tournament to have fun games, you enlist in a tournament to win.
But what's the point of winning if the whole thing is just a masochism contest? You're certainly not making any money playing 40k, so is having a 'W' mark next to your name really so enjoyable that it justifies 2-3 hours of a terrible game?
Some people get their kicks from pulling the wings off of flies.
LordBlades wrote: Or rather most top players draw most of their fun from winning. You don't enlist in a tournament to have fun games, you enlist in a tournament to win.
But what's the point of winning if the whole thing is just a masochism contest? You're certainly not making any money playing 40k, so is having a 'W' mark next to your name really so enjoyable that it justifies 2-3 hours of a terrible game?
The confirmation that you really ARE as good as you think you are, the fame (even if in a pretty smalk and niche community), or simply the 'I won' feeling are valid reasons for satisfaction for more people than you think.
I used to play competitive DotA a long time ago. I was not into it for the fun of actually playimg competitive DotA games (I found them relatively unfun and I had tons more fun owning some randoms with a hero I actually enjoyed playing). I was into it for the above feelings, which were not directly related to the game itself. The only competitive thing from the game itself that I enjoying was the team comp and hero build strategy we used to do.
The confirmation that you really ARE as good as you think you are, the fame (even if in a pretty smalk and niche community), or simply the 'I won' feeling are valid reasons for satisfaction for more people than you think.
The point is that 'fame', 'I won' and stuff is a bit diminished when you're playing eldar.
The confirmation that you really ARE as good as you think you are, the fame (even if in a pretty smalk and niche community), or simply the 'I won' feeling are valid reasons for satisfaction for more people than you think.
The point is that 'fame', 'I won' and stuff is a bit diminished when you're playing eldar.
Not really. You're not tryingto be the underdog and win, you're just trying to win. As such, using the best tools at your disposal is only logical. If you beat a non-eldar as an eldar you're simply proving you're better than your opponent at list building. Which is still winning.
BlaxicanX wrote: It really isn't, because everyone else beside you can (and many in fact do) play Eldar as well in tournaments.
Arguably it still is. 'I was lucky enough to go first and crippled the enemy army turn 1' is still not something to boast with, even if it is Eldar VS Eldar.
The confirmation that you really ARE as good as you think you are, the fame (even if in a pretty smalk and niche community), or simply the 'I won' feeling are valid reasons for satisfaction for more people than you think.
The point is that 'fame', 'I won' and stuff is a bit diminished when you're playing eldar.
Not really. You're not tryingto be the underdog and win, you're just trying to win. As such, using the best tools at your disposal is only logical. If you beat a non-eldar with a bat you're simply proving you're better than your opponent at list building. Which is still winning.
Fixed dat for you.
Also, there's even a special term for players that absolutely don't care about the fun of others.
The confirmation that you really ARE as good as you think you are, the fame (even if in a pretty smalk and niche community), or simply the 'I won' feeling are valid reasons for satisfaction for more people than you think.
The point is that 'fame', 'I won' and stuff is a bit diminished when you're playing eldar.
Not really. You're not tryingto be the underdog and win, you're just trying to win. As such, using the best tools at your disposal is only logical. If you beat a non-eldar with a bat you're simply proving you're better than your opponent at list building. Which is still winning.
Fixed dat for you.
Also, there's even a special term for players that absolutely don't care about the fun of others.
Do you really expect that your opponent at a tournament is there to make sure you have fun? No, he's there to beat you, as thoroughly and expediently as he is able
In casual games you have a point, but not at tournaments.
Do you really expect that your opponent at a tournament is there to make sure you have fun? No, he's there to beat you, as thoroughly and expediently as he is able
In casual games you have a point, but not at tournaments.
Which would not be a point, if there was a difference between tournament and non tournament armies people play with.
Well, I hope that this is a typo, too.
But it appears its already confirmed.
This is crazy. We Eldar players never asked for something like this.
We just wanted our Serpents back, without shield or holofield.
The notion that you can apply even close to equal damage in return is just hopeful wishing.
The range puts them outside of anything but "Heavy" weapons, effectively. So since you can't move and fire Heavies effectively, except for vehicles, you have to hope they don't jump back out of LOS so that you have anything to shoot at, at all. The only comparison I can draw is Devastator Marines with Heavy Bolters. 5 Devs w/ 4 HB cost 110 points. 4 JB with 4 SL cost 108. I mean, what's the comparison between them? Less shots, less strength, less mobility [not even close], same saves, same T, 1 extra wound.
It's not even the same game. The best that can be hoped for is that PDC [Post Decurion Codices] are all along this same power level. There's no real answer to something that hurts you a lot, from a range you can't effectively return fire at, that can move out of LOS after firing, that brings a decent save [How much IgCo has AP 3 that you could hit something that fast / out of sight with?] and can voluntarily take a good cover save whenever it likes? That can reposition 48" to get away from threats if need be?
I mean, right now the ideal counter is Chaos Marines with Drake Spam. 'Cause that's winning Tournaments right now. They took Eldar, a Tournament contender to begin with without allies or other ridiculous formation deals and made them Better. And then you need to deal with Wraithguard Units / Dragons in Serps for heavy AT... and a Gargantuan Wraith Knight? And a flyer that can peg most any flyer out of the sky?
Toofast wrote: How many armies with ranged D weapons dominated an ITC event last year?
Weren't D-weapons already banned (or at least only available on the bad LOW options like the Shadowsword)? It's kind of hard to dominate events when you can't use something.
How about invisibility?
Who really cares? Even if invisibility is somehow balanced in theory playing against it isn't even close to fun for most people. Modifying it a bit to keep the basic concept but remove the worst of GW's stupidity is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
All they need to do is change to wording to reduce bs to 1 - then you can use flamers and blast weapons against it. You know - the typical things you'd use to hit something you can't see but know is there.
lustigjh wrote: If it's this bad, I'm just going to refuse to play against it and be no worse off. I might play a few less games but I might also convince a few people not to bring cheesy units.
But... I have a fluffy Saim-Hann Windrider army with every model converted to be unique, painted to a high standard and with a name and background for every model and unit in the army along with a novella detailing my army's history that I pass out to each opponent before a game.
Okay I really don't, but just a blanket "don't play against it" is going to screw over the fluff players too (although it is likely a fluff player won't suddenly have a ton of scatter lasers if they didn't already).
I've been out of the game a couple of years now, and after reading through this thread, I'm glad I sold all my stuff off.
You've got two groups of people on this thread:
The sky is falling types and
Let's come up with a counter list, types.
Both groups have argued their points quite well,
But if the game had any semblance of balance, then it wouldn't have to come down to this. I've never had this problem with any other games I've played, apart from those made by GW, and I've been wargaming for about 25 years. People should be losing games of Warhammer because their opponent was better than them, not because somebody decided to over-power the latest army book.
Has the (relatively) low Leadership of the Eldar Jetbike been explored as a weakness? I've failed plenty of morale checks for my jetbikes, and when I do, they fall back a LONG way.
greatbigtree wrote: The notion that you can apply even close to equal damage in return is just hopeful wishing.
The range puts them outside of anything but "Heavy" weapons, effectively. So since you can't move and fire Heavies effectively, except for vehicles, you have to hope they don't jump back out of LOS so that you have anything to shoot at, at all. The only comparison I can draw is Devastator Marines with Heavy Bolters. 5 Devs w/ 4 HB cost 110 points. 4 JB with 4 SL cost 108. I mean, what's the comparison between them? Less shots, less strength, less mobility [not even close], same saves, same T, 1 extra wound.
It's not even the same game. The best that can be hoped for is that PDC [Post Decurion Codices] are all along this same power level. There's no real answer to something that hurts you a lot, from a range you can't effectively return fire at, that can move out of LOS after firing, that brings a decent save [How much IgCo has AP 3 that you could hit something that fast / out of sight with?] and can voluntarily take a good cover save whenever it likes? That can reposition 48" to get away from threats if need be?
I mean, right now the ideal counter is Chaos Marines with Drake Spam. 'Cause that's winning Tournaments right now. They took Eldar, a Tournament contender to begin with without allies or other ridiculous formation deals and made them Better. And then you need to deal with Wraithguard Units / Dragons in Serps for heavy AT... and a Gargantuan Wraith Knight? And a flyer that can peg most any flyer out of the sky?
We don't know if the new Codex is going to be strictly better. We know Jetbikes can take some cheap dakka and they are putting destroyer weapons on some Elfdar crap but that's about it. The rest of the Codex could be utter crap. Hell, the Bikes could be the only thing good about new Elfdar. It wouldn't be the first time GW put out an internally imbalanced codex.
DCannon4Life wrote: Has the (relatively) low Leadership of the Eldar Jetbike been explored as a weakness? I've failed plenty of morale checks for my jetbikes, and when I do, they fall back a LONG way.
Thing is that that requires you to be either close enough to cause enough casualties to cause a morale check or to use wargear or a psychic power that will cause one.
DCannon4Life wrote: Has the (relatively) low Leadership of the Eldar Jetbike been explored as a weakness? I've failed plenty of morale checks for my jetbikes, and when I do, they fall back a LONG way.
Thing is that that requires you to be either close enough to cause enough casualties to cause a morale check or to use wargear or a psychic power that will cause one.
Those are all pretty unlikely,
I could see it as a possibility if you could pick your psychic powers, and then you could pick ones which cause fear, but hope you have to roll for them. And not every army has access to them anyway. And yeah good luck getting close enough to cause morale checks through casualties.
I mean, I admit I'm not exactly a tactical genius, but I am really struggling to see a reliable way to deal with them, especially factoring in that the rest of their army is still very potent and will probably have things that can easily counter things you'd bring to counter Jetbikes.
DCannon4Life wrote: Has the (relatively) low Leadership of the Eldar Jetbike been explored as a weakness? I've failed plenty of morale checks for my jetbikes, and when I do, they fall back a LONG way.
Thing is that that requires you to be either close enough to cause enough casualties to cause a morale check or to use wargear or a psychic power that will cause one.
Those are all pretty unlikely,
I could see it as a possibility if you could pick your psychic powers, and then you could pick ones which cause fear, but hope you have to roll for them. And not every army has access to them anyway. And yeah good luck getting close enough to cause morale checks through casualties.
I mean, I admit I'm not exactly a tactical genius, but I am really struggling to see a reliable way to deal with them, especially factoring in that the rest of their army is still very potent and will probably have things that can easily counter things you'd bring to counter Jetbikes.
I think a powerful ranged outfllanking unit is a possibility, but those will typically be quite expensive and will only be able to shoot at a single unit, so the rest can just kill it on their turn, without it even having made it's points back.
One thought I had was a full stealth team for my Tau, who come in at 90 points cheaper than the jetbikes, but without markerlight support they'll only do 2 to 3 wounds to the unit. So they might cause a morale check but the Eldar player still has an above average chance of passing that check thanks to LD8.
Even if the Bikes do run away, one of the other bike units can kill the entire stealth team if it isn't in cover (~7 unsaved wounds) and if it is in cover then it can get enough casualties (~4 unsaved wounds) to cause a morale check on me, which I have an equal chance of failing that the Eldar player did. Then add in that with only 2 suits left, if they did stick around they're basically useless due to the massive drop in their offensive firepower.
A 10-man unit (or 11--is the Warlock separate or an upgrade?) only needs to take 3 casualties before needing a morale check. The Warlock adds nothing in terms of his LD.
I already appreciate how much firepower Eldar will have if going first, and how much they will have on the bottom of turn one. Leadership is a relative weakness. If I were playing against bike spam, it's what I would be looking at. Well, that and as much AP3 Ignores Cover as I could get my hands on.
Great White wrote: I mean the only way to counter the jet bikes is armor, or drop pods with some shooty units in them
There are a few other options. Tau with their ability to ignore cover should be able to kill them reasonably well, and IG artillery can hurt them if the table has enough LOS-blocking terrain to hide the big guns behind. Conventional tanks are probably the worst counter because D-weapon spam is the other half of the Eldar army and that turns AV 13-14 into a spectacular waste of points.
Problem is, those Jetbikes can outrange our markerlights thanks to that 12" move and JSJ and all that S6 will shred pathfinders and marker drones without some sort of tanking character to protect them, which can just be avoided thanks to the jetbikes manoeuvrability.
They can also outrange all of our crisis suit weapons. Max range is 36" (Missile Pod)+6" move, a full 6" less than the Jetbikes. Then a Crisis with dual missile pods puts out the same amount of shots as a single scatter laser but comes in at least at 52 points, almost twice that of a Windrider. So you can field ~twice as many windriders as crisis suits for the same points, put out double the shots and be way more manoeuvrable to boot.
So that leaves us with:
Fire Warriors - 30+6" range, they'll never hit them.
Railhead - has the range but only puts out a single large blast at AP4, not that reliable.
Ionhead - Again has the range and this time with a S8 AP3 large blast but gets hot.
Broadsides - HYMP suffer the same problem as crisis suits, but with the added problem of snapshots, Railguns get one shot so are basically useless.
Kroot - outflanking kroot might actually help, even if just to create danger zones around the board edges and limit the movement of the jetbikes.
Riptide - Has the range but is only BS3 and gets hot on its blast. So without markerlight support could fail to fire or scatter off target.
To be fair, it doesn't matter if they out range you by 6" at that distance. Setting up at your deploy line in Hammer and Anvil means you only have 48" worth of board in front of you. If the bikes want to sit in their deployment zone to stay out of range, they've limited themselves to 12" + whatever they feel comfortable risking for the assault move (we'll say 19" total). That's slightly more than a quarter of the board they're avoiding just to deny return fire. Finding LoS blocking terrain shouldn't be too tricky. Anything else that wants to move up will take your whole army's fire at that point.
Vanguard and Dawn of War will essentially force them to either accept being within range of centrally deployed units or huddle in the corner for blast markers.
If you ask me, every Eldar is a part of this crime. If one ever asks me for help, I will spit in his face. If ever face one on the table, I will destroy him, be it on or off the table.
Immersturm wrote: If you ask me, every Eldar is a part of this crime. If one ever asks me for help, I will spit in his face. If ever face one on the table, I will destroy him, be it on or off the table.
Uhh... no... this is really Phil Kelly's fault who is a bigger fanboy about his Space Elves than Matt Ward ever was about his golden boys.
Immersturm wrote: If you ask me, every Eldar is a part of this crime. If one ever asks me for help, I will spit in his face. If ever face one on the table, I will destroy him, be it on or off the table.
Right yeah it's the players fault, not at all the awful rules writers at GW.
lustigjh wrote: If it's this bad, I'm just going to refuse to play against it and be no worse off. I might play a few less games but I might also convince a few people not to bring cheesy units.
But... I have a fluffy Saim-Hann Windrider army with every model converted to be unique, painted to a high standard and with a name and background for every model and unit in the army along with a novella detailing my army's history that I pass out to each opponent before a game.
Okay I really don't, but just a blanket "don't play against it" is going to screw over the fluff players too (although it is likely a fluff player won't suddenly have a ton of scatter lasers if they didn't already).
The point of a blanket "no thank you" is to give myself a chance to have fun. Fluffy or not, a JB list as bad as this seems is not going to be remotely fun.
I could make some fluffy unbound list which consists of an invisible Screamerstar, Belakor, and Heldrakes but I still wouldn't expect anyone to want to play against it.
lustigjh wrote: If it's this bad, I'm just going to refuse to play against it and be no worse off. I might play a few less games but I might also convince a few people not to bring cheesy units.
But... I have a fluffy Saim-Hann Windrider army with every model converted to be unique, painted to a high standard and with a name and background for every model and unit in the army along with a novella detailing my army's history that I pass out to each opponent before a game.
Okay I really don't, but just a blanket "don't play against it" is going to screw over the fluff players too (although it is likely a fluff player won't suddenly have a ton of scatter lasers if they didn't already).
The point of a blanket "no thank you" is to give myself a chance to have fun. Fluffy or not, a JB list as bad as this seems is not going to be remotely fun.
I could make some fluffy unbound list which consists of an invisible Screamerstar, Belakor, and Heldrakes but I still wouldn't expect anyone to want to play against it.
This is exactly why a well balanced ruleset would benifit the fluffy players as much as, if not more, than competitive players. As it is now, depending on which theme you like for your army, you could end up with a bonkers army (Saim-Hann Eldar) or an awful army (Termie SM for example). You either lose most of your games because you happen to like a certain theme, or no one wants to play you because you happen to like a different theme. It's unacceptable really, especially at the price you pay to play the bloody game.
I agree with you, you're well within your rights to refuse a game, it's perfectly reasonable to not want to play a super broken army even if they made it with fluff in mind. It's just sad that you even have to do so.
I mean, I understand that there is the leaked video of the White Dwarf pages for the new Eldar codex. This is pretty reliable information.
But is everyone already prepared for 'the sky is falling' rhetoric before the actual codex comes out? I'm personally going to be saving my gripes for when the codex actually is in effect, and we've had a chance to see it in action. Math-hammering stats is a good foothold on their power, but there is liable to be some aspects missed without having the armies on the tabletop.
lustigjh wrote: If it's this bad, I'm just going to refuse to play against it and be no worse off. I might play a few less games but I might also convince a few people not to bring cheesy units.
But... I have a fluffy Saim-Hann Windrider army with every model converted to be unique, painted to a high standard and with a name and background for every model and unit in the army along with a novella detailing my army's history that I pass out to each opponent before a game.
Okay I really don't, but just a blanket "don't play against it" is going to screw over the fluff players too (although it is likely a fluff player won't suddenly have a ton of scatter lasers if they didn't already).
The point of a blanket "no thank you" is to give myself a chance to have fun. Fluffy or not, a JB list as bad as this seems is not going to be remotely fun.
I could make some fluffy unbound list which consists of an invisible Screamerstar, Belakor, and Heldrakes but I still wouldn't expect anyone to want to play against it.
Right, and I agree. My point was to basically illustrate how a lack of balance hurts the fluff player more because they're lumped into the WAAC category when the game is "supposed" to be about fluffy lists, but not all fluffy lists are created equal.
clamclaw wrote: I mean, I understand that there is the leaked video of the White Dwarf pages for the new Eldar codex. This is pretty reliable information.
But is everyone already prepared for 'the sky is falling' rhetoric before the actual codex comes out? I'm personally going to be saving my gripes for when the codex actually is in effect, and we've had a chance to see it in action. Math-hammering stats is a good foothold on their power, but there is liable to be some aspects missed without having the armies on the tabletop.
In what way can a 12" move which ignores terrain unless it lands in it, 36" range S6 gun and then 2D6" thrust move to get back out of range or LOS in a 27 point troop choice not be as broken as it sounds?
It is basically a Crisis Suit which is more manoeuvrable (extra 6" in movement plus turbo boost), puts out double the shots at half the points than a similarly fitted XV8 (and so negates the extra wound that Crisis suits have) and can be spammed in the troop slot and so has Objective Secured (admittedly XV8s can have ObSec if you take a Farsight detachment but that comes with its own downsides).
You don't need to see it in action to tell that it's gonna be bad.
I for one am glad that GW is simplifying the game. It's all coming down to:
1. Put models on table.
2. Roll to see who goes first.
3. Roll to shoot
4. On a 4+ remove what you shot at.
5. Next player's turn.
agnosto wrote: I for one am glad that GW is simplifying the game. It's all coming down to:
1. Put models on table.
2. Roll to see who goes first.
3. Roll to shoot
4. On a 4+ remove what you shot at.
5. Next player's turn.
See? Simpler is better.
This new format allows for much more time to be spent taking part in our favourite part of the HHHobby, buying GWs miniatures
If you see a grenade, with the pin in it, you don't need to wait till the pin is pulled to know that some serious gak would happen.
You can look at these bikes, and say that you can take 6 units of 5, at 1500 points, and only eat up 810 points of a list. That's 120 S6 Shots, that you can't retaliate against in the "typical" fashion of dumping shots into them. I mean, you can't even compete at volume of fire using GUARDSMEN at that range. Even if you were within 24", which you shouldn't be, Guardsmen can only output 162 S3 shots. In both cases, roughly 80 hits land.
So you could have 80 S:6 shots hit, or you could have 80 S:3 shots hit. Guardsmen, all 162 of them, are somehow magically on the board and able to shoot back. Uhhh.... these are the same points? Bikes can move 48" per turn? Bring a Jink save with them? Have MEQ armour? Get to move out of LOS in the Assault phase? AND they have the volume of firepower that pure grunt IG can do, but at longer range, and double the strength?
It's a joke!
Yes, 162 Guardsmen will be tough to table. Yes, they might make it across the board and completely swamp the objectives. Yes, these things are hypothetically possible. Why is the viable solution to a single unit to instead spam as close to 300 models as possible?
Even spamming 300 models won't work as those 810pts will still be killing 67 guardsmen a turn on average. 30 troops models that can gut a full blob squad and more at 36" range in one round of shooting... just crazy.
And 810pts leaves you with 1040pts to buy plenty of serpents, firedragons, artillery, warpspiders and a wraithknight with.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And as to the rest of the codex maybe being gak - what are they going to do? Nerf fragons melta down to st4, make warpspiders snp with a 6" move, make serps 10 all round with no shields and make war walkers auto explode on a to-hit roll of 6? Yeh I'm overegging the nerfing but most eldar units needed nerfing anyway without also getting the best 40k unit ever created by a country mile that can also not only be spammed - but take up the troop slots!
A 10-man unit (or 11--is the Warlock separate or an upgrade?) only needs to take 3 casualties before needing a morale check. The Warlock adds nothing in terms of his LD.
If the Warlock has embolden, the unit can reroll the LD check.
Yeh, why is everyone acting as though jetbikes have ld5? They have a 27.8% chance of failing a ld test. Lets face it - most people in a tourney will probably be running 6 squads of 5 as mentioned above, so if you do get in range, and you do cause 2 casualties, and they do fail their ld check, and they do run off the board, a failed ld roll has caused 81pts of damage. Not exactly game changing.
Makumba wrote: why do people blame Phil Kelly for this codex, wasn't he fired from the designed studio.
The codices are now considered as a joint work of the development team.
In this way, nobody can be blamed individually.
It can only be a collective failure.
Makumba wrote: why do people blame Phil Kelly for this codex, wasn't he fired from the designed studio.
The codices are now considered as a joint work of the development team.
In this way, nobody can be blamed individually.
It can only be a collective failure.
But so far it has seemed pretty obvious to those that have followed this game for a while that while the name wasn't on each codex, the writers and their mannerisms were still the same.
Hmmmmm has anyone considered a usage of a Harlequin/Dark Eldar fear-bomb list? Use some of the Harlequin tech with Shadowseers and Death Jesters in combination with DE Coven tech.
A death jester, if he can get a half-decent shot off, causes around one unsaved wound on average , forcing a LD 6 or 5 check depending on positioning of LD debuff tech. Veil of Tears is one of the best protections against any kind of really long range attack, and it's impossible for the bike unit to jump into range to reliably hit through Veil and jump out again without being in threat range of at least the DJ. And even if they are out of range of running them off the board the DJ can run them 3d6" towards a cc threat instead.
Veil of tears'd Beastmaster packs and Harlequin Solitaires hiding out of LOS and using the blitz move may be capable of catching the bike star.
And as for the StD spam, if we 're assuming they'll primarily be running WKs odds are it'll only be two, and at worst they'll be able to pop one of the dirt-cheap Starweavers a turn. Hardly devastating.
Heck, the Starweavers are almost capable of fighting pound for pound with those dang bikes as cost effective Shuriken cannon platforms. They bring 2 for 70 points as opposed to one for 27. And they're a vehicle with an invuln save so they almost average as more durable than the bikes to most kinds of incoming fire.
It's a good unit, don't get me wrong, but if you take 810 points of ANY good unit, it is going to look broken. 810 points of Heldrake gets you 5 drakes...half your bikes are dead when 3 of them come onto the board (before leadership tests). 800ish points of Noise Marines gives you 5 blastmasters pumping 48" S8 AP3 blasts out of Rhinos...that's going to lead to some failed leadership tests, and you'll have to shoot at each unit for two different turns to kill it (if you have enough bikes left by then). Like I said, it's a really nice unit, but talking about how it looks at these high point levels seems a bit misleading. I'm sure there are other good units that aren't CSM (lol) that you could do the same with.
Martel732 wrote: Has anyone considered that there is not any non-tailored solution at all? Quit posting list tailored "solutions".
Starting with tailored lists and then working backward toward TaC lists seems like a reasonable approach. I agree that simply posting a tailored list and then walking away without revising it in light of other potential opponents is largely a waste of time. Have to start somewhere, may as well start with Low Hanging Fruit.
lustigjh wrote: If it's this bad, I'm just going to refuse to play against it and be no worse off. I might play a few less games but I might also convince a few people not to bring cheesy units.
But... I have a fluffy Saim-Hann Windrider army with every model converted to be unique, painted to a high standard and with a name and background for every model and unit in the army along with a novella detailing my army's history that I pass out to each opponent before a game.
Okay I really don't, but just a blanket "don't play against it" is going to screw over the fluff players too (although it is likely a fluff player won't suddenly have a ton of scatter lasers if they didn't already).
The point of a blanket "no thank you" is to give myself a chance to have fun. Fluffy or not, a JB list as bad as this seems is not going to be remotely fun.
I could make some fluffy unbound list which consists of an invisible Screamerstar, Belakor, and Heldrakes but I still wouldn't expect anyone to want to play against it.
Right, and I agree. My point was to basically illustrate how a lack of balance hurts the fluff player more because they're lumped into the WAAC category when the game is "supposed" to be about fluffy lists, but not all fluffy lists are created equal.
sassmcsass wrote: It's a good unit, don't get me wrong, but if you take 810 points of ANY good unit, it is going to look broken. 810 points of Heldrake gets you 5 drakes...half your bikes are dead when 3 of them come onto the board (before leadership tests). 800ish points of Noise Marines gives you 5 blastmasters pumping 48" S8 AP3 blasts out of Rhinos...that's going to lead to some failed leadership tests, and you'll have to shoot at each unit for two different turns to kill it (if you have enough bikes left by then). Like I said, it's a really nice unit, but talking about how it looks at these high point levels seems a bit misleading. I'm sure there are other good units that aren't CSM (lol) that you could do the same with.
Ok 135 pts. 20 st6 bs4 shots at 36" on 5 jsj platforms with a 12" move, eldar jetbike turbo boost, 4+ jink, 3+, t4, relentless, 5 wounds, OS and taken in a troops slot...
Yep still looks insanely broken.
The fact that you can take 6 units of 5 makes it worse.
It's hit me, and it's been in my face the whole time - what will be most effective against eldar jetbikes?
Earthshakers and wyverns.
Hello renegades!
Dual CAD
Arch demagogue with cov of tzeentch and mutant overlord (in plasma obliterator)
4 disciples
3 spawn x 4
10 mutants x 2
3 rapier laser destroyers x 3
Militia training
Plasma obliterator
Arch demagogue with melta bombs and cov of khorne (in mutant blob)
4 disciples
Enforcer with stims (or what ever its called - IA13 at home) (in mutant blob)
10 mutants
30 mutants
5 wyverns
5 wyverns
3 Earthshakers
Skyshield landing pad
1850pts
5 wyverns and earthshakers on skyshield for 4++. Rapiers for AT (plus earthshakers). 12 spawn will get shredded, as will the mutant blob, but at least it will keep fire off the artillery.
Eldar will completely outscore this list and still probably win but at least it'll give them a good try. Obliterator will go down to D quick though...
pretre wrote: 2 SC for 70 is less good than 2 SL for 54. :(
I think Fear Bomb only improves, however, with better scoring.
True. I think the real strength of the Harly codex that people underestimate is the potential for MSU shenanigans. As nutty as these bike units are gonna be, a full 10 man squad unloading 40 shots is going to be beyond overkill if a Harlequin force splits into a 70pt Transport, a 95pt troupe and a 60pt jester. If the Shadowseers are correctly utilized to deny the priority targets, you can prevent each of those 270 point bike mini-stars from eliminating more than 100-ish points each. Keeping a serious threat like a Beaststar veiled can create a screen to allow you to feed just the least vital components of your army.
Deep striking in a WWP with Shadowseer with MoS and Archon with AoM then gives you one extra trump card to drop something big with a combination of psychic shrieks, laugh of sorrows or mirror of minds.
What's to stop the eldar player from just turboboosting to and sitting next to the Wyverns and earthshakers on the landing pad, thus resulting in him gaining a 4++ against the rest of your shooting and your artillery being unable to shoot at him as it would result in the blasts being over friendly models?
No matter which side you sit on; Sky is Falling or How Do We Counter... can we all agree that this looks utterly boring to play against?
Watching the socially awkward, silent, must win-all-games-no-matter-what dude at your local gaming centre pick through 160 dice is not how I like to spend my time...
A Town Called Malus wrote: What's to stop the eldar player from just turboboosting to and sitting next to the Wyverns and earthshakers on the landing pad, thus resulting in him gaining a 4++ against the rest of your shooting and your artillery being unable to shoot at him as it would result in the blasts being over friendly models?
Then the Mutants and Spawn in that list would charge them and mess them up? Either they get close enough to get charged by the blobs, or they shoot the blobs and get blown up by the artillery.
Martel732 wrote: Has anyone considered that there is not any non-tailored solution at all? Quit posting list tailored "solutions".
The more dominant one list is, the more applicable tailored solutions become. If this list really does turn up as nutty as it looks like it's going to, then to win a tournament you gotta find something to beat it.
Kinda like how everyone plans for Sine Snakes and The Wonderful Thing About Tiggurs now. Your tailor is stronger than the power build as soon as the power build becomes the norm
A Town Called Malus wrote: What's to stop the eldar player from just turboboosting to and sitting next to the Wyverns and earthshakers on the landing pad, thus resulting in him gaining a 4++ against the rest of your shooting and your artillery being unable to shoot at him as it would result in the blasts being over friendly models?
Then the Mutants and Spawn in that list would charge them and mess them up? Either they get close enough to get charged by the blobs, or they shoot the blobs and get blown up by the artillery.
Not perfect, but actually works fairly well.
You need LOS to charge don't you? Or has that changed? It is quite easy for the bikes to avoid that using the Landing pad and the vehicles themselves. Average of a 7" charge + needing LOS before the charge means that you may find it trickier than thought to actually get a charge on the bikes, as being close enough to charge may mean LOS is blocked by the Landing Pad.
A Town Called Malus wrote: What's to stop the eldar player from just turboboosting to and sitting next to the Wyverns and earthshakers on the landing pad, thus resulting in him gaining a 4++ against the rest of your shooting and your artillery being unable to shoot at him as it would result in the blasts being over friendly models?
Then the Mutants and Spawn in that list would charge them and mess them up? Either they get close enough to get charged by the blobs, or they shoot the blobs and get blown up by the artillery.
Not perfect, but actually works fairly well.
You need LOS to charge don't you? Or has that changed? It is quite easy for the bikes to avoid that using the Landing pad and the vehicles themselves. Average of a 7" charge + needing LOS before the charge means that you may find it trickier than thought to actually get a charge on the bikes, as being close enough to charge may mean LOS is blocked by the Landing Pad.
So yeah, in the situation where the R&H player left enough room on or around the Landing Pad for the Jetbikes to land in such a way that they were out of LoS of the blobs but also close enough to them that the blasts can't shoot them, and R&H also screwed over his own charge lanes enough by deploying like a lunatic, it's quite difficult to get a charge off.
Or, we can assume that playing against Eldar doesn't automatically turn every player into an idiot.
A Town Called Malus wrote: What's to stop the eldar player from just turboboosting to and sitting next to the Wyverns and earthshakers on the landing pad, thus resulting in him gaining a 4++ against the rest of your shooting and your artillery being unable to shoot at him as it would result in the blasts being over friendly models?
Then the Mutants and Spawn in that list would charge them and mess them up? Either they get close enough to get charged by the blobs, or they shoot the blobs and get blown up by the artillery.
Not perfect, but actually works fairly well.
You need LOS to charge don't you? Or has that changed? It is quite easy for the bikes to avoid that using the Landing pad and the vehicles themselves. Average of a 7" charge + needing LOS before the charge means that you may find it trickier than thought to actually get a charge on the bikes, as being close enough to charge may mean LOS is blocked by the Landing Pad.
So yeah, in the situation where the R&H player left enough room on or around the Landing Pad for the Jetbikes to land in such a way that they were out of LoS of the blobs but also close enough to them that the blasts can't shoot them, and R&H also screwed over his own charge lanes enough by deploying like a lunatic, it's quite difficult to get a charge off.
Or, we can assume that playing against Eldar doesn't automatically turn every player into an idiot.
^This. Also wyverns are quite small for vehicles and won't block LoS to a jetbike on a stand. Even IF for some reason you left enough space on the landing pad for a jetbike unit to land and you also didn't have anything with which to charge them with... the artillery can always fire at the other jetbike units. I'm curious as to whether you could fit 3 earthshakers and 5 wyverms on a landing pad. You definitely couldn't fit 3 earthshakers, 5 wyverns and 30 jetbikes on a pad.
The fact that I've had to resort to 10 wyverns and 3 earthshakers, a skyshield to protect them and a plasma obliterator to top it off, just to take out some troops units that come in cheaper than a 5 man tac squad in pod with plasma gun and combi-plasma, speaks volumes.
welshhoppo wrote: Except a full jet bike army isn't WAAC behaviour. It is a totally acceptable and fluffy way to play a Saim-Hann army too.
But maybe a person going in with that mindset doesn't have to put scatter lasers on everything?
I'm sorry but my Eldar are saim-hann devotees of Waacdrad, The Scatterer Of The Lasers. In my army fluff this last week the almighty Waacdrad commanded by Farseers to abandon their holy wave serpents for holy jetbikes.
If I can't outfit my army to fit my fluff then why don't you just outlaw fluffy armies altogether you narrative deforging monster?
Orock posted this yesterday and its all ready had 13, 562 views at time of writing. That really, to me, demonstrates not only how worried people are about this but also a shared sense of dread (or jubilation) that this has extreme potential to destroy the game as it is. To have thay many views in that time, people must have come on dakka intentionally to see and/or discuss this utterly game changing rule (and I mean that literally, not as an overused cliché). It has the potential to rock the foundations of the game if GW allow it to stand.
And as I've demonstrated - I'm willing to consider and discuss counters. But the sky is most certainly falling in without agreement on house rules. You don't have to be one or the other to see how dangerous this is for the game.
Poly Ranger wrote: Orock posted this yesterday and its all ready had 13, 562 views at time of writing. That really, to me, demonstrates not only how worried people are about this but also a shared sense of dread (or jubilation) that this has extreme potential to destroy the game as it is. To have thay many views in that time, people must have come on dakka intentionally to see and/or discuss this utterly game changing rule (and I mean that literally, not as an overused cliché). It has the potential to rock the foundations of the game if GW allow it to stand.
And as I've demonstrated - I'm willing to consider and discuss counters. But the sky is most certainly falling in without agreement on house rules. You don't have to be one or the other to see how dangerous this is for the game.
Honestly I don't think it's the bikes themselves that are generating so much worry. It's the bikes going to an already powerful and fairly flexible codex. If these we're given to say DA... I don't think there would be as big of a panic (not so say no one would worry, but it wouldn't be as big of a deal).
Poly Ranger wrote: Orock posted this yesterday and its all ready had 13, 562 views at time of writing. That really, to me, demonstrates not only how worried people are about this but also a shared sense of dread (or jubilation) that this has extreme potential to destroy the game as it is. To have thay many views in that time, people must have come on dakka intentionally to see and/or discuss this utterly game changing rule (and I mean that literally, not as an overused cliché). It has the potential to rock the foundations of the game if GW allow it to stand.
And as I've demonstrated - I'm willing to consider and discuss counters. But the sky is most certainly falling in without agreement on house rules. You don't have to be one or the other to see how dangerous this is for the game.
Honestly I don't think it's the bikes themselves that are generating so much worry. It's the bikes going to an already powerful and fairly flexible codex. If these we're given to say DA... I don't think there would be as big of a panic (not so say no one would worry, but it wouldn't be as big of a deal).
Correct. People have posted lots of things that can counteract or at least somewhat deal with the Bikes themselves. But then, the question becomes, what happens when you have those bikes alongside Dark Eldar, Harlequins, or simply things like Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, or Wraithknights? If the entire army was just the one-trick-pony of "cheap massed S6 shooting", then it would be simpler to deal with. As it stands, that's just one pillar of the codex.
The fact that they are troops and can come in units of 3-10 would make a worry of any codex got them.
If DA got them:
Interregator chaplain with bike
5 jetbikes with SL x 6
Sicaran with schism of mars, lascannons and ceremite
Sicaran
Sicaran
Javelin with typhoon ML, MM and 2 HK
Typhon seige tank
1850pts
They make even DA broken beyond repair. Yes I've taken the best of FW for everything else but even with access to those things DA were still considered the worst dex.
I agree though - it is worse on a dex that is already the strongest.
Not gonna lie, it's refreshing (however scary) to talk all this stuff about Eldar. My Necrons are enjoying the lack of hate towards them. Mmmmm, calm. So nice.
welshhoppo wrote: Except a full jet bike army isn't WAAC behaviour. It is a totally acceptable and fluffy way to play a Saim-Hann army too.
But maybe a person going in with that mindset doesn't have to put scatter lasers on everything?
Shun the non believer, Shun!
For the cost of the upgrade, you'd have to be an idiot not too. Or intentionally weakening your list, which is no fun either. You shouldn't have to tailor your list to make it easier for your opponents, but that is an issue of balance.
It's an issue because normally if you go full fluff you overspecialise, so you can be easily countered. But going full fluff against that many jet bikes, I can't see a reasonable counter yet. Except another jet bike army and a first turn advantage.
DCannon4Life wrote: Has the (relatively) low Leadership of the Eldar Jetbike been explored as a weakness? I've failed plenty of morale checks for my jetbikes, and when I do, they fall back a LONG way.
so the only counter we can really think of for CWE is DE allied with Harlequin Eldar with massive Ld negs and forced morale checks
Makumba wrote: why do people blame Phil Kelly for this codex, wasn't he fired from the designed studio.
The codices are now considered as a joint work of the development team.
In this way, nobody can be blamed individually.
It can only be a collective failure.
I'd cut the studio some slack. This Eldar affair stinks of executive meddling.
Wraithknights, wraithguard and hemlocks are all new kits that for some reason failed to meet GW's sales expectations. Hence the D.
Jetbikes are a related but different issue: Every Eldar player probably has a dozen or more jetbikes in his/her collection now. The only way to make the new kits work was to radically alter their wargear options so as to make the old models less appealing.
In the meantime, Aspects still languish with their old finecasted 2nd edition models. With no stocks to clear, they will surely be ignored by this codex as they were by the previous one.
Makumba wrote: why do people blame Phil Kelly for this codex, wasn't he fired from the designed studio.
The codices are now considered as a joint work of the development team.
In this way, nobody can be blamed individually.
It can only be a collective failure.
I'd cut the studio some slack. This Eldar affair stinks of executive meddling.
Wraithknights, wraithguard and hemlocks are all new kits that for some reason failed to meet GW's sales expectations. Hence the D.
Jetbikes are a related but different issue: Every Eldar player probably has a dozen or more jetbikes in his/her collection now. The only way to make the new kits work was to radically alter their wargear options so as to make the old models less appealing.
In the meantime, Aspects still languish with their old finecasted 2nd edition models. With no stocks to clear, they will surely be ignored by this codex as they were by the previous one.
I don't know a single Eldar player who doesn't have at least 1-2 Wraightknights. Maybe Wraithguard or the Flyers I could understand, though.
welshhoppo wrote: Except a full jet bike army isn't WAAC behaviour. It is a totally acceptable and fluffy way to play a Saim-Hann army too.
But maybe a person going in with that mindset doesn't have to put scatter lasers on everything?
Nope. See you cant trust people to not run broken things when they are available. Thats why space marine grav bikers havent won eveyr tournament since their inception. 2 max per squad, and possibly a combi. And the only option to get more per squad is captain or librarian for command squad. But thats more expensive. IF you could give every member of a squad a special weapon, it would be broken as all hell, which is why you cannot...until now.
Makumba wrote: why do people blame Phil Kelly for this codex, wasn't he fired from the designed studio.
The codices are now considered as a joint work of the development team.
In this way, nobody can be blamed individually.
It can only be a collective failure.
I'd cut the studio some slack. This Eldar affair stinks of executive meddling.
Wraithknights, wraithguard and hemlocks are all new kits that for some reason failed to meet GW's sales expectations. Hence the D.
Jetbikes are a related but different issue: Every Eldar player probably has a dozen or more jetbikes in his/her collection now. The only way to make the new kits work was to radically alter their wargear options so as to make the old models less appealing.
In the meantime, Aspects still languish with their old finecasted 2nd edition models. With no stocks to clear, they will surely be ignored by this codex as they were by the previous one.
Sorry, WHAT?
Wraithknights were a huge seller for GW.
Hemlocks sold well to boot, they just never really got played as Hemlocks and were instead built as the Crimson Hunter.
Wraithguard also sold fairly well by all accounts.
Don’t forget the mandatory viper tax in all of the base formations. I could see it for the bike one, but the two ground based ones? That’s just them pushing kits.
There will be formation bonuses, there will be warlord traits, There will be two tables of psychic powers.
There may be other units which provide as other yet unknown benefits.
There is a lot to fear...
Imagine if these bikes got access to formation bonuses such as universal bladestorm (or even old school bladestorm), or fnp, extra bs/tl, increaded cover saves etc.
Even bonuses which aren't as bad as the above would just be crazy.
welshhoppo wrote: Except a full jet bike army isn't WAAC behaviour. It is a totally acceptable and fluffy way to play a Saim-Hann army too.
But maybe a person going in with that mindset doesn't have to put scatter lasers on everything?
I'm sorry but my Eldar are saim-hann devotees of Waacdrad, The Scatterer Of The Lasers. In my army fluff this last week the almighty Waacdrad commanded by Farseers to abandon their holy wave serpents for holy jetbikes.
If I can't outfit my army to fit my fluff then why don't you just outlaw fluffy armies altogether you narrative deforging monster?
TheCustomLime wrote: I have an idea. Let's all use the Eldar codex! Guard can use Jetbikes as counts as rough riders! Baneblades standing in for Wraithknigts!
I now want to see a baneblade chassis on wraithknight legs with a giant sword arm coming out of one of the side sponsons and a scattershield from the other. Baneknight.
It'd be as sensible as GW rules writing these days.
Srsly, though, I'm done with mainline 40k. This, along with the Necron codex, has sapped all of my interest from the game. I might still play a pick up game or two but that's it. Time to head off to the promised lands of the Horus Heresy.
DCannon4Life wrote: I've got an internet dollar bet on the 'Saim Hann' style formation getting...Skilled Rider.
Hit and run.
Why can’t it be both?
/ducks and runs
Actually, there are two possible sources, the windrider host formation and the formation o formations (the decurion equivalent).
I bet for hit & run and fearless for the decurion equivalent, and skilled rider and stealth for the windrider formation.
No tarpitting, no morale problems, cero problems with terrain, S2++ jink...
So they only need a new psychic power to make their weapons rending and twin linked, for killing easily the S2+ and heavy vehicles with mass fire, to be a complete unit...
I have to agree that facing a potential 160 shots is scary. Thank heavens i dont play 40k much. Bring back 2nd edition at least nothing as dumb as what i am hearing on this forumn concerns my future in 40k been doing this game for 20 years. Glad i got into ancients bit more balanced
I've put this in the proposed rules thread on bolter changes as tongue in cheek but imagine if tac marines got the option for the entire squad to upgrade to SL for 10pts each. Imagine the uproar. Imagine if tac squads could upgrade to 1 SL for every 2 marines, still imagine the uproar.
bobthebretonnian wrote: I have to agree that facing a potential 160 shots is scary. Thank heavens i dont play 40k much. Bring back 2nd edition at least nothing as dumb as what i am hearing on this forumn concerns my future in 40k been doing this game for 20 years. Glad i got into ancients bit more balanced
2nd edition had things this dumb. You probably just never saw them. Pulsa Rokkit spam. Eldar web spinners. Sonic blasters. Hormagaunts.
Srsly, though, I'm done with mainline 40k. This, along with the Necron codex, has sapped all of my interest from the game. I might still play a pick up game or two but that's it. Time to head off to the promised lands of the Horus Heresy.
welcome brother! - you'll be safe here; they can take back the 40k galaxy if they want, it's broken anyway.
bibotot wrote: I think it's 1 Scatter Laser per 3 models instead of per model. Just like the Shuriken Cannon right now.
It's one each according to WD and the fact you also get 3 scatter lasers in a box of 3 bikes apparently.
All signs point to it being 1 per 1, instead of logical 1 per 3. Just like serpent sheilds were clearly supposed to be 6" but were 60"
yeah if they really intend this, well they will be selling a lot of jet bikes and very little of anything else for a long time as people quit in disgust.
bibotot wrote: I think it's 1 Scatter Laser per 3 models instead of per model. Just like the Shuriken Cannon right now.
1. WD clearly states every model can take one
2. On a totally different page outlining what's in the new jetbike kit, it states the kit comes with 3 of each weapon, so you can give all 3 scatter lasers
How many ways from Sunday does this need to be confirmed before people accept it? Declaring that snow is black doesn't make it true...
Kanluwen wrote: Wraithknights were a huge seller for GW.
Hemlocks sold well to boot, they just never really got played as Hemlocks and were instead built as the Crimson Hunter.
Wraithguard also sold fairly well by all accounts.
Really, I don't know. That's why I included a caveat. Maybe it's something situational, the need to start the fiscal year in strong grounds or to silence some mouths amongst the shareholders. Maybe they overstocked and are now trying to get rid of the excess production. Whatever the reason, GW chose to further promote their newest set of kits. I'm not a firm believer in this "GW only produces rules to promote new models" theory (my two main armies, Orks and Dark Angels, tell me that's not always true), but in the case of the Eldar there is enough evidence to be suspicious.
I'm gonna start taking special weapons on every member of every squad. Every biker gets a grav gun, every two guardsmen get an autocannon, every space marine gets a plasma gun - 10 points for the upgrade, regardless of original cost. It's Oprah 40k! You get specials, and you get specials!!!
I am loving the people who claim this is a reasonable and not too unbalanced change for the Eldar.
The delusion is strong.
Then again, its a great example of just how bad the power creep has become when people are honestly under the impression there are reasonable counters.
Kanluwen wrote: Wraithknights were a huge seller for GW.
Hemlocks sold well to boot, they just never really got played as Hemlocks and were instead built as the Crimson Hunter.
Wraithguard also sold fairly well by all accounts.
Really, I don't know. That's why I included a caveat. Maybe it's something situational, the need to start the fiscal year in strong grounds or to silence some mouths amongst the shareholders. Maybe they overstocked and are now trying to get rid of the excess production. Whatever the reason, GW chose to further promote their newest set of kits. I'm not a firm believer in this "GW only produces rules to promote new models" theory (my two main armies, Orks and Dark Angels, tell me that's not always true), but in the case of the Eldar there is enough evidence to be suspicious.
The big issue with the evidence in this case is, simply put, that Jetbikes even with old models were considered pretty dang good.
It is only the real issue of this whole Scatter Laser for 10 point nonsense that is pushing things over the edge.
Same thing goes for the Wraithknight and Wraithguard. They were already considered pretty good(or great in the case of WKs), but something as simple as Distort weapons gaining access to Destroyer flatout drives the crazy bus right over the cliff.
Go check out the bolter thread under rules suggestions, where we are still be shamed for wanting to buff bolters. I'm just breaking down laughing at this point. The only bolters are good for now is committing suicide when you see these things coming. They still might kill you faster, though.
Some of us would rather not have the really stupid stuff - like the apparent Jetbike changes - ruin all our games, especially when neither player fields them.
They're going to be everywhere where I play. They're probably sawing their models as we speak. And it will only take a couple players at each location to drive the crazy bus.
2 out of 4 people I play the most use eldar. Both of them use bikers. It may not be much different on the lose front for me, as I was losing to their armies, before. But at least I get to shot at stuff. Now they will just out range most of my stuff. In fact the games are probably going to be the same as against GK. Two or three turns of grabing objectives coupled with an alfa strike that kills 50% of my army.
I agree its a unit with huge damage output but also incredibly fragile in terms of defense and Ld. Spam large blasts, flyers, or MSU of high strength (Destroyers, missile pods, etc). Either they jink and neuter themselves or risk Ld tests. Go get your your artillery on.
Ferros wrote: I agree its a unit with huge damage output but also incredibly fragile in terms of defense and Ld. Spam large blasts, flyers, or MSU of high strength (Destroyers, missile pods, etc). Either they jink and neuter themselves or risk Ld tests. Go get your your artillery on.
Good luck when Fire Dragons or D weapon wraith units take out your artillery, or their flyers take out yours...
I'd say that we're forgetting that Wave Serpents will now be a fast attack choice (like every other dedicated transport in the 7th ed 'dexes), but if you can take 40+ scatter lasers on your troops choices, I'm not sure it's going to matter beyond maybe giving the knife an extra twist after it's buried up to the hilt already.
Martel732 wrote: " incredibly fragile in terms of defense and Ld."
They are meq that move 12" and have 4 S6 36" shots. Meqs are incredibly fragile?
You play BA, you should already know that they are indeed incredibly fragile. Marines on foot outside their transport might as well be dead these days with the amount of high stregth and/or low AP fire going around these days. Spare a thought for those of us that play chaos who don't automatically rally.
Against a Jinking Valkyrie Chassis all of those scatter lasers will knock off 2.23112 HP. They are not that great at AA unless the opponent's aircraft aren't particularly durable. They will swat Stormtalons out of the sky that is for damned sure.
Drasius wrote: I'd say that we're forgetting that Wave Serpents will now be a fast attack choice (like every other dedicated transport in the 7th ed 'dexes), but if you can take 40+ scatter lasers on your troops choices, I'm not sure it's going to matter beyond maybe giving the knife an extra twist after it's buried up to the hilt already.
Well, most likely the Wave Serpent won't be as ridiculous as it was. The Serpent shield won't be as "point-n-click" as it was, the Scatterlaser combo isn't a thing anymore, and Holofields are changing. So yeah, not too bad anymore.
TheCustomLime wrote: Against a Jinking Valkyrie Chassis all of those scatter lasers will knock off 2.23112 HP. They are not that great at AA unless the opponent's aircraft aren't particularly durable. They will swat Stormtalons out of the sky that is for damned sure.
Okay. They'll just have to ignore that thing, just like my BA do.
Vendettas and Valkyries kind of suck anyway especially against Eldar stuff. Low RoF+crap BS+Jink=feth all being damaged. Though, I think this will be the final nail in the coffin of the Stormraven functioning as a transport for anything Space Marine.
Ferros wrote: I agree its a unit with huge damage output but also incredibly fragile in terms of defense and Ld. Spam large blasts, flyers, or MSU of high strength (Destroyers, missile pods, etc). Either they jink and neuter themselves or risk Ld tests. Go get your your artillery on.
Lets pretend for a minute that they have no save, no access to jink, and T1. They have a 36" range and jsj. But one more thing that is WAY more important to their durability is that they are troops that can be included in squads of 3-10. That means you can have 12 units of 3 in 2 CAD. Even in one CAD people will probably run 6 units of 5. Yes IF you kill 3 and IF you make 7 run away that's a decent result. But people won't be including units of 10 most likely. They won't need to. If you make a couple run away, it doesn't look so rosy anymore. And can we stop acting like JBs have ld5 please?
Poly Ranger wrote: Orock posted this yesterday and its all ready had 13, 562 views at time of writing. That really, to me, demonstrates not only how worried people are about this but also a shared sense of dread (or jubilation) that this has extreme potential to destroy the game as it is. To have thay many views in that time, people must have come on dakka intentionally to see and/or discuss this utterly game changing rule (and I mean that literally, not as an overused cliché). It has the potential to rock the foundations of the game if GW allow it to stand.
And as I've demonstrated - I'm willing to consider and discuss counters. But the sky is most certainly falling in without agreement on house rules. You don't have to be one or the other to see how dangerous this is for the game.
Honestly I don't think it's the bikes themselves that are generating so much worry. It's the bikes going to an already powerful and fairly flexible codex. If these we're given to say DA... I don't think there would be as big of a panic (not so say no one would worry, but it wouldn't be as big of a deal).
That's because my DA bikes are noe 37ppm. Much more acceptable
