Martel732 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I don't think that's healthy at all. There would come a breaking point sooner than later where you'd be handing D strength missile launcher variants on Guardsmen or underslung vortex grenade launchers.

I really don't see the functional difference at this point. That's how far down the totem BA are from Eldar now.

I always enjoyed BA vs. Nurgle CSM. Had about 50/50 win rate against my mate.

 Blacksails wrote:
Everyone wants their army to be worthwhile, but if the escalation continues, the game will be quite literally so broken as to be nearly unplayable outside of a handful of close friends and heavy comp/restriction/gentlemen's agreements.

When money is factored in, I'd start questioning people's sanity if they invested in a game where Guardsmen could take D-weapons. I think its pretty daft now a troops choice can take D-weapons, but I'm holding out a little longer for a few reasons.

When all the people at my local scene drag out their Eldar armies (they almost all have one, because DUH), it WILL be unplayable for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rippy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I don't think that's healthy at all. There would come a breaking point sooner than later where you'd be handing D strength missile launcher variants on Guardsmen or underslung vortex grenade launchers.

I really don't see the functional difference at this point. That's how far down the totem BA are from Eldar now.

I always enjoyed BA vs. Nurgle CSM. Had about 50/50 win rate against my mate.

Nurgle should win more often than that because of defensive grenades. But sounds like a good time.

 Blacksails wrote:
I don't think that's healthy at all. There would come a breaking point sooner than later where you'd be handing D strength missile launcher variants on Guardsmen or underslung vortex grenade launchers.

In Rogue Trader, anyone could get a Vortex Grenade by rolling 00 (on d100) and D-Cannons were regular items.

But, I completely agree with you philosophically. Escalation to introduce big, bad models is one thing (and debatable, at that) -- but escalation just for the sake of one-upping the other army isn't helpful at all.

 Talys wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I don't think that's healthy at all. There would come a breaking point sooner than later where you'd be handing D strength missile launcher variants on Guardsmen or underslung vortex grenade launchers.

In Rogue Trader, anyone could get a Vortex Grenade by rolling 00 (on d100) and D-Cannons were regular items.

But, I completely agree with you philosophically. Escalation to introduce big, bad models is one thing (and debatable, at that) -- but escalation just for the sake of one-upping the other army isn't helpful at all.

Again, why not? They just did it and many are saying it's not a big deal. They have "counters" for the scat bikes. I'm sure those same people will find "counters" for guardsmen with D-weapons. If we're going crazy, go full crazy, not selective crazy.

Thought this might cause more interest here in relation to the escalation of Eldar in 40K (In the main News and Rumours thread everyone is too busy arguing to notice anything that isn't quoting them)


Phoenix Lords:

Asurmen (220)
4++ (3++ if fighting in a challenge). Gets 1D3 Warlord traits. Sword is +1S, AP2, Mastercrafterd. For each wound take a Ld test. If failed model dies.

Jain Zar (200)
When fighting in a challange, Jain Zar chooses a weapon of is opponent. He may not use this weapon. If done so, Jain Zar has -1A. Enemy models at +6″ get -5 to WS (Mínimum 1). Her sword is AP2, Shred.

Karandras (200)
When arriving from reserves can choose any border. His mandiblaster ignores ALL saves.

Fuegan (220)
He gets +1S and +1A for each lost wound.

Baharroth (170)
When DS all units at 6″ are treated as hit by a weapon with the Blind SR.

Maugan Ra (195)
Can fire his Maugetar twice per turn (That means 8 S6 Rending shots). Maugetar has an alternative profile: Assault 1, S1, Poison 2+. If one model dies, put 5″ marker. All models under the template get a S5 AP4 hit.

On top of that, they have as well the rules listed for their Aspects.

Some of those look pretty damn powerful on top of the expected D weapons.

Martel732 wrote:

When all the people at my local scene drag out their Eldar armies (they almost all have one, because DUH), it WILL be unplayable for me.

I don't know about your scene, but in ours, both in private groups and FLGS, hardly anyone plays Eldar -- or, it seems, there are a disproportionately small number of Eldar players, seeing as it's been a top-tier army for a long, long time. Some friends are like me -- we have Eldar armies, but haven't been dusted them off quite a while. Personally, I always blamed it on models -- particularly so many infantry models being outdated/finecast, and the repetitiveness of their hover tanks.

One person will get the bikes and then everyone else will need them to counter them. In reality, other scat bikes are the only counter for scat bikes.

Martel732 wrote:
When all the people at my local scene drag out their Eldar armies (they almost all have one, because DUH), it WILL be unplayable for me.

Well, sure, obviously player dependent, but I get what you're saying. That said, you can't honestly believe the solution is to hope your next book is even more powerful, do you?

Talys wrote:
In Rogue Trader, anyone could get a Vortex Grenade by rolling 00 (on d100) and D-Cannons were regular items.

But, I completely agree with you philosophically. Escalation to introduce big, bad models is one thing (and debatable, at that) -- but escalation just for the sake of one-upping the other army isn't helpful at all.

Which was partly what I jokingly referring to, though I never player 40k back in those days. I'm a relative newcomer, mid way through 5th.

I understand that the game needs to change in some capacity as the years go on, and that I won't always agree with the changes. But nothing good comes from a system where new codices (updated sequentially rather than simultaneously) are completely superior in nearly every way.

There's a lot I dislike about current 40k. That much I'm sure many of you know by now, for better or for worse. But if I'm still here, clearly GW has done something right with 40k as a whole, and its sad to see it get washed away by easily avoided mistakes like this book.

Jain Zar (200)
When fighting in a challange, Jain Zar chooses a weapon of is opponent. He may not use this weapon. If done so, Jain Zar has -1A. Enemy models at +6″ get -5 to WS (Mínimum 1). Her sword is AP2, Shred.

Great, so she could even take down Kharn with that sort of power.

Thanks for sharing, Wulfmar! Pretty cool. 1D3 Warlord traits.... lol! Jain Zar sounds fun in a challenge

Some of them probably look better than they are, especially if you consider the availability of D weapons in Wraithguard.

 Blacksails wrote:
I understand that the game needs to change in some capacity as the years go on, and that I won't always agree with the changes. But nothing good comes from a system where new codices (updated sequentially rather than simultaneously) are completely superior in nearly every way.

There's a lot I dislike about current 40k. That much I'm sure many of you know by now, for better or for worse. But if I'm still here, clearly GW has done something right with 40k as a whole, and its sad to see it get washed away by easily avoided mistakes like this book.

Well said! I'm not so sure that escalation in all codices is something we really have to worry about. If you look at most of the codices, they were scaled back, or at least, kept at parity (look at Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, for example). The problem, and puzzling thing to me, seems to be that GW doesn't mind buffing SOME factions... the ones that were pretty strong to start with!

It is healthier for the game for GW to have Eldar overbuffed, and leave the other factions alone (in terms of relative strength), because this is easier for the community to come to a consensus on in terms of tournament rules adjustments, which a lot of other players will adopt as house rules.

"That said, you can't honestly believe the solution is to hope your next book is even more powerful, do you? "

It's a good of a solution as it being weaker.

Martel732 wrote:
"That said, you can't honestly believe the solution is to hope your next book is even more powerful, do you? "

It's a good of a solution as it being weaker.

We'll have to disagree on that. Being weaker doesn't break the game.

 Blacksails wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"That said, you can't honestly believe the solution is to hope your next book is even more powerful, do you? "

It's a good of a solution as it being weaker.

We'll have to disagree on that. Being weaker doesn't break the game.

It's already broken. Might as well go full crazy.

 Blacksails wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"That said, you can't honestly believe the solution is to hope your next book is even more powerful, do you? "

It's a good of a solution as it being weaker.

We'll have to disagree on that. Being weaker doesn't break the game.

It certainly breaks the game for those who have that army.

Martel732 wrote:

It's already broken. Might as well go full crazy.

If that's your line of thinking, then we'll just have to leave this and agree to disagree. Again, I dislike a lot about current 40k, but I don't think I'd want to see it get any more ridiculous just to make the players of faction X strong enough to contend with the Eldar until the next book stomps them.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

It certainly breaks the game for those who have that army.

Which would in turn break the game for even more players playing all the other factions that haven't even been brought up to near that power level. Its also a temporary solution, lasting as little as a month.

 Talys wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I don't think that's healthy at all. There would come a breaking point sooner than later where you'd be handing D strength missile launcher variants on Guardsmen or underslung vortex grenade launchers.

In Rogue Trader, anyone could get a Vortex Grenade by rolling 00 (on d100) and D-Cannons were regular items.
.

The D in D cannon just stood for Distortion and had its own rules. Had nothing to do with being Strength D.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The D in D cannon just stood for Distortion and had its own rules. Had nothing to do with being Strength D.

The Distortion Cannon was way more powerful than Distort or Destroyer weapons of today. It had a 2" radius and if you were in it, you got a saving throw to get out of the way -- the best saving throw was for units with good mobility (I think 4+); big clunky units saved on a 6. Miss the save, your model was removed -- there were no second chances.

Give these to tactical squads, and you'd effectively remove everything big and expensive from the game.

By the way, the old Distortion cannon has the same principle as the new Distort weapons (warp bubble sucking stuff in); since Distort weapons are now Destroyer rules, they kinda sorta ARE the same. In an irrelevant way.

" I don't think I'd want to see it get any more ridiculous just to make the players of faction X strong enough to contend with the Eldar until the next book stomps them. "

I'll take that over what I have now. It's called desperation.

 Wulfmar wrote:
Thought this might cause more interest here in relation to the escalation of Eldar in 40K (In the main News and Rumours thread everyone is too busy arguing to notice anything that isn't quoting them)


Phoenix Lords:

Asurmen (220)
4++ (3++ if fighting in a challenge). Gets 1D3 Warlord traits. Sword is +1S, AP2, Mastercrafterd. For each wound take a Ld test. If failed model dies.

Jain Zar (200)
When fighting in a challange, Jain Zar chooses a weapon of is opponent. He may not use this weapon. If done so, Jain Zar has -1A. Enemy models at +6″ get -5 to WS (Mínimum 1). Her sword is AP2, Shred.

Karandras (200)
When arriving from reserves can choose any border. His mandiblaster ignores ALL saves.

Fuegan (220)
He gets +1S and +1A for each lost wound.

Baharroth (170)
When DS all units at 6″ are treated as hit by a weapon with the Blind SR.

Maugan Ra (195)
Can fire his Maugetar twice per turn (That means 8 S6 Rending shots). Maugetar has an alternative profile: Assault 1, S1, Poison 2+. If one model dies, put 5″ marker. All models under the template get a S5 AP4 hit.

On top of that, they have as well the rules listed for their Aspects.

Some of those look pretty damn powerful on top of the expected D weapons.

Thoughts:

Asurmen... could be good if the Warlord traits are bonkers. D3 though, hmmm.

Jain Zar... if you can deliver her, all those super kill Chapter Masters and what not? HAH. Locked up forever!

Karandas... does that work if he's with a unit? If so, that could get REAL GROSS if you attach to say, I dunno, Fire Dragons or Wraithguard?

Fuegan... Not Hot.

Baharroth... oh, look, the Anti-Tau guy. Initiative tests for a 7" bubble basically. Gross.

Maugan Ra... S'alright.

 TheKbob wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
Thought this might cause more interest here in relation to the escalation of Eldar in 40K (In the main News and Rumours thread everyone is too busy arguing to notice anything that isn't quoting them)


Phoenix Lords:

Asurmen (220)
4++ (3++ if fighting in a challenge). Gets 1D3 Warlord traits. Sword is +1S, AP2, Mastercrafterd. For each wound take a Ld test. If failed model dies.

Jain Zar (200)
When fighting in a challange, Jain Zar chooses a weapon of is opponent. He may not use this weapon. If done so, Jain Zar has -1A. Enemy models at +6″ get -5 to WS (Mínimum 1). Her sword is AP2, Shred.

Karandras (200)
When arriving from reserves can choose any border. His mandiblaster ignores ALL saves.

Fuegan (220)
He gets +1S and +1A for each lost wound.

Baharroth (170)
When DS all units at 6″ are treated as hit by a weapon with the Blind SR.

Maugan Ra (195)
Can fire his Maugetar twice per turn (That means 8 S6 Rending shots). Maugetar has an alternative profile: Assault 1, S1, Poison 2+. If one model dies, put 5″ marker. All models under the template get a S5 AP4 hit.

On top of that, they have as well the rules listed for their Aspects.

Some of those look pretty damn powerful on top of the expected D weapons.

Jain Zar... if you can deliver her, all those super kill Chapter Masters and what not? HAH. Locked up forever!

Just accept the challenge on your Sergeant or dont accept it haha.

 raiden wrote:
To anyone wanting a 40k game that is balanced and awesome to watch, pick up WH40K II retribution. Then download the FREE elite mod. You can play as any race save necrons and I think tau in the multiplayer. You get almost all of the units save the Knight's/WK stuff. (Sadly no bikes yet) . its not perfect but hey. Its an option.

No DEldar either, or SoB.

You could also help betatest Forbidden Lore. It may be slow in work progress, but it is not abandoned. [/shameless selfadvertisement]

 Rippy wrote:

Just accept the challenge on your Sergeant or dont accept it haha.

Then Sarge dies, the Phoenix Lords are typically Fearless (yes?) and then you issue another challenge. You just lock up his deathstar unit forever and soak it on Jain Zar. Does she have Hit and Run? Could be even more hilarious.

And if you don't accept, unless it changed in 7E, you say the Chapter Master doesn't fight. You still lock up his nasty boss unit.

 TheKbob wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

Just accept the challenge on your Sergeant or dont accept it haha.

Then Sarge dies, the Phoenix Lords are typically Fearless (yes?) and then you issue another challenge. You just lock up his deathstar unit forever and soak it on Jain Zar. Does she have Hit and Run? Could be even more hilarious.

Oh wow, I thought challenges could only be issued on first round of combat? Did I miss that completely?

 Blacksails wrote:
I'd start questioning people's sanity if they invested in a game where Guardsmen could take D-weapons.

Shadowsword superheavy titan hunter
Deathstrike Missile Launcher
Vortex Grenade

And those are merely the "old school" items...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I'd start questioning people's sanity if they invested in a game where Guardsmen could take D-weapons.

Shadowsword superheavy titan hunter
Deathstrike Missile Launcher
Vortex Grenade

And those are merely the "old school" items...

I'm fairly certain, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you've ever been able to equip a Guardsman with Shadowsword tank.

 Gamgee wrote:
The only way to get a message through to the big GW that this is completely unacceptable way to make a codex is to throw up a gak storm. The biggest way to do that? Well show them we won't even play with them. I know I intend to. Many of my players in my local FLGS intend to. Though I need to convince them to ban them from tournaments all together. The more the Eldar players complain and bitch about us complaining and bitching about their so obviously broken and favoritism codex the faster we can wrap this up. It's going to get messy before the end though. These half measures and trying to be "reasonable" with GW and even a certain subset of Eldar players is clearly not working. So it's time to kick things up a notch.

Can I at least get people who will agree to no games with them?

If there are any Eldar players out there with any remorse or guilt for the entire health of the game and 40k scene I implore you to do one of two things. Cheese the ever loving gak out of your codex and get yourself loathed and banned. Or don't play at all. Thanks.

As always the bigger we make this the quicker we'll get an answer.

Thanks. Remember cause mayhem. This Eldar Codex can't be allowed to stand.

I Gamgee swear to throw up a gak storm and use any method possible to get GW attention.

Edit
Since I started this thread and including myself there are four people who will no longer play against Eldar players. All it takes is a little team work. I'll continue to update this.
If I missed your name send me a PM or let me know in the thread and I'll add it.

Operation Members:
Gamgee
Orock
Torga_DW
Rippy

This is the silliest thing I have ever read. Seriously - just go play another game that you will enjoy.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I'd start questioning people's sanity if they invested in a game where Guardsmen could take D-weapons.

Shadowsword superheavy titan hunter
Deathstrike Missile Launcher
Vortex Grenade

And those are merely the "old school" items...

I'm fairly certain, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you've ever been able to equip a Guardsman with Shadowsword tank.

Correct, it's equipped by the whole squad and they carry it into battle over there heads.

This pleases the machine spirit.

 Wulfmar wrote:
Thought this might cause more interest here in relation to the escalation of Eldar in 40K (In the main News and Rumours thread everyone is too busy arguing to notice anything that isn't quoting them)


Phoenix Lords:

Asurmen (220)
4++ (3++ if fighting in a challenge). Gets 1D3 Warlord traits. Sword is +1S, AP2, Mastercrafterd. For each wound take a Ld test. If failed model dies.

Jain Zar (200)
When fighting in a challange, Jain Zar chooses a weapon of is opponent. He may not use this weapon. If done so, Jain Zar has -1A. Enemy models at +6″ get -5 to WS (Mínimum 1). Her sword is AP2, Shred.

Karandras (200)
When arriving from reserves can choose any border. His mandiblaster ignores ALL saves.

Fuegan (220)
He gets +1S and +1A for each lost wound.

Baharroth (170)
When DS all units at 6″ are treated as hit by a weapon with the Blind SR.

Maugan Ra (195)
Can fire his Maugetar twice per turn (That means 8 S6 Rending shots). Maugetar has an alternative profile: Assault 1, S1, Poison 2+. If one model dies, put 5″ marker. All models under the template get a S5 AP4 hit.

On top of that, they have as well the rules listed for their Aspects.

Some of those look pretty damn powerful on top of the expected D weapons.

As far as I can tell, Asurmen, Baharroth, and Fuegan are completely unchanged.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I'd start questioning people's sanity if they invested in a game where Guardsmen could take D-weapons.

Shadowsword superheavy titan hunter
Deathstrike Missile Launcher
Vortex Grenade

And those are merely the "old school" items...

I'm fairly certain, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you've ever been able to equip a Guardsman with Shadowsword tank.

On the other hand, Hulk could grab the Shadowsword by the barrel, and swing it hard enough to do more damage than a D-weapon

See, the Emperor had it all wrong. He didn't need the Adeptus Astartes... he needed the Avengers!

HULK SMASH! Puny Eldar!

 TheKbob wrote:


Baharroth... oh, look, the Anti-Tau guy. Initiative tests for a 7" bubble basically. Gross.

What you meant to say was "oh, look, the anti-Necron guy". Any worthwhile Tau unit has Blacksun filters and laughs at night fighting/blind.

 cvtuttle wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
The only way to get a message through to the big GW that this is completely unacceptable way to make a codex is to throw up a gak storm. The biggest way to do that? Well show them we won't even play with them. I know I intend to. Many of my players in my local FLGS intend to. Though I need to convince them to ban them from tournaments all together. The more the Eldar players complain and bitch about us complaining and bitching about their so obviously broken and favoritism codex the faster we can wrap this up. It's going to get messy before the end though. These half measures and trying to be "reasonable" with GW and even a certain subset of Eldar players is clearly not working. So it's time to kick things up a notch.

Can I at least get people who will agree to no games with them?

If there are any Eldar players out there with any remorse or guilt for the entire health of the game and 40k scene I implore you to do one of two things. Cheese the ever loving gak out of your codex and get yourself loathed and banned. Or don't play at all. Thanks.

As always the bigger we make this the quicker we'll get an answer.

Thanks. Remember cause mayhem. This Eldar Codex can't be allowed to stand.

I Gamgee swear to throw up a gak storm and use any method possible to get GW attention.

Edit
Since I started this thread and including myself there are four people who will no longer play against Eldar players. All it takes is a little team work. I'll continue to update this.
If I missed your name send me a PM or let me know in the thread and I'll add it.

Operation Members:
Gamgee
Orock
Torga_DW
Rippy

This is the silliest thing I have ever read. Seriously - just go play another game that you will enjoy.

I do enjoy the game. Alot. Doesn't mean that I have to like every part of it. This forum is for discussion, not just loving or hating every single part of a game. So you go away as you have nothing to discuss


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That being said I will play against Eldar, just not cheese spam lists.

So, to the people saying to ban eldar or to not play eldar players: all your really doing is alienating the eldar players and further balkanizing the community. I understand you care about having fun, but turning other players into pariahs solves nothing.

If you actually want a long term solution rather than just putting a band-aid on it, that requires some self-sacrificing and not buying from GW. Because sales is the only thing they care about.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
So, to the people saying to ban eldar or to not play eldar players: all your really doing is alienating the eldar players and further balkanizing the community. I understand you care about having fun, but turning other players into pariahs solves nothing.

If you actually want a long term solution rather than just putting a band-aid on it, that requires some self-sacrificing and not buying from GW. Because sales is the only thing they care about.

Or just respect your opponent and dont spam cheap bikes and D weapons.

Also can we change the operation name to Operation: Scatfork?

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
So, to the people saying to ban eldar or to not play eldar players: all your really doing is alienating the eldar players and further balkanizing the community. I understand you care about having fun, but turning other players into pariahs solves nothing.

If you actually want a long term solution rather than just putting a band-aid on it, that requires some self-sacrificing and not buying from GW. Because sales is the only thing they care about.

I agree that sales are what they care about, but how to inform them you aren't buying because of Eldar balance issues, and not anything else (e.g high prices)?

Also, GW sales have been decreasing for years and years anyway and look what we have.

So I've played since third edition a.k.a 6th grade (I wasn't around for the second ed. craziness) and this is the first time I've been dumbfounded by GW. Sure, there has been some questionable decisions in the past. That said, can we expect this 'breaking the norm' from future codices? It appears to me that there is a base line of what is 'normal' and 'expected' in this game. This is what allows us all to sense the balance of any one edition or codex. If we agree that this particular release is an unusually sharp deviation, and if we can expect more in the future, will we lose the ability to tell if the game is balanced any longer? What then?

Chad Warden wrote:
I agree that sales are what they care about, but how to inform them you aren't buying because of Eldar balance issues, and not anything else (e.g high prices)?

Also, GW sales have been decreasing for years and years anyway and look what we have.

Unfortunately, I don't have a good answer. It's debatable at how useful emails or similar are, since they seems entrapped in their idea that they don't need to do market research, but it can't hurt.

Another solution is the community as a whole just creating and agreeing with our own eldar codex, but that seems even less likely.

 Tinchebrai wrote:
So I've played since third edition a.k.a 6th grade (I wasn't around for the second ed. craziness) and this is the first time I've been dumbfounded by GW. Sure, there has been some questionable decisions in the past. That said, can we expect this 'breaking the norm' from future codices? It appears to me that there is a base line of what is 'normal' and 'expected' in this game. This is what allows us all to sense the balance of any one edition or codex. If we agree that this particular release is an unusually sharp deviation, and if we can expect more in the future, will we lose the ability to tell if the game is balanced any longer? What then?

Part of the overall problem here is that GW has the whole "spirit of the game" nonsense going on. You COULD spam Scatter Lasers or D-weapons... but you'd be a bad person and acting against the spirit of the game if you did that. But you're still allowed to... that's always been the underlying issue. They give you the ability to do things in the name of "options" but at the same time click their tongue and say how you're a bad, bad person if you do that. It's like having a bowl full of $100 bills that says "Free Money" and then calling you a thief when you take one.

Part of the overall problem here is that GW has the whole "spirit of the game" nonsense going on. You COULD spam Scatter Lasers or D-weapons... but you'd be a bad person and acting against the spirit of the game if you did that. But you're still allowed to... that's always been the underlying issue. They give you the ability to do things in the name of "options" but at the same time click their tongue and say how you're a bad, bad person if you do that. It's like having a bowl full of $100 bills that says "Free Money" and then calling you a thief when you take one.

#OperationScatfork will be trending before the days end

 Tinchebrai wrote:
Good point and I agree. It is always warms my heart when a for profit corporation instructs me on the finer points of morality.

To be fair though that's been the problem for like 20 years. Back in my day (lol) they had articles in White Dwarf talking about if you took certain powerful magic items in WHFB, for example, you were not playing in the spirit of the game and were a bad opponent. Yet they let you take those options without restrictions.

This is just the evolution of that.

Its reverse psychology so that you are compelled to take it.

I wouldn't be surprised if "spend more" was in tiny font between every word in the new eldar codex.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Its reverse psychology so that you are compelled to take it.

I wouldn't be surprised if "spend more" was in tiny font between every word in the new eldar codex.

I'm sure it is.

Honestly I am abit confused on what stance to take here.

I have no power to make eldar players not go to tournaments and such so I am left with two options: ( purchasing Eldar is NOT an option)
1. Stop going to tournaments. Even the pseudo ones at my FLGS.
2. Go to tournaments and have 0 chance of winning. ( I never win anyways so its not THAT much of a difference, but still....)

All the guys I know that play Eldar are mad about this new codex, and they believe that no one will want to play with them because they'll be labelled WAAC cheese-mongers (which will probably happen IMO)

I think I am just going to rough it out for a while and see what happens. Maybe GW just leaked those rules to build up excitement/attention and then they'll nerf the super OP stuff after its released. I know movie makers do something similar trying to get as much attention from "negative content" as possible and then tame it down.

The book exists in all its glory.

The only thing you can hope for is a FAQ/Errata, but given their track record with those, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Just remember, this isn't a leak anymore, this is grade A, confirmed level bs. No need to pretend it might change.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

All the guys I know that play Eldar are mad about this new codex, and they believe that no one will want to play with them because they'll be labelled WAAC cheese-mongers (which will probably happen IMO)

This is the sad part honestly. It hurts Eldar players the most.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blacksails wrote:
The book exists in all its glory.

The only thing you can hope for is a FAQ/Errata, but given their track record with those, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Just remember, this isn't a leak anymore, this is grade A, confirmed level bs. No need to pretend it might change.

They wont, as much as they need too. Hopefully all the cheese lords buy out heaps of OP units, and then they get nerfed a week after.

 Rippy wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

All the guys I know that play Eldar are mad about this new codex, and they believe that no one will want to play with them because they'll be labelled WAAC cheese-mongers (which will probably happen IMO)

This is the sad part honestly. It hurts Eldar players the most.

Most definitely, the Eldar players are getting punished for something they have absolutely no control over. It's why I'm so frustrated with GW- they could do this game right, they could put in the small amount of revenue it would take to playtest and keep things balanced, but they choose not to. In fact, they choose nearly the opposite- purposely unbalancing the game as to maintain higher levels of sales.

I love 40k, but GW has been very effectively eroding anything I hold dear about it.

 Rippy wrote:
This is the sad part honestly. It hurts Eldar players the most.

It does not hurt Eldar players in the least.

It hurts weak "competitive" players who can't compete, who don't adapt, and who need Easy Buttons to win.

The QQing and TwT that's dominating the boards right now are the same as when Wraithlords were broken in 3E (they weren't).

Players need to step up and learn to play instead of crying for mommy every time some other Codex gets some cool stuff.


GW despises what the competitive scene has become, and I love what they've been doing to juice things.

I don't know if that's sarcasm or not...

Its certainly a great parody of a few posters' thoughts I've read so far.

If you are serious, I'm sure everyone just needs to adapt harder. Buy the latest book, buy the latest expensive model, ignore themes or fluff and just build the hardest list possible. Nevermind that a codex that is substantially more powerful than the rest hurts all players, regardless of their preferred style of play.

But I'm sure everyone just needs to adapt and learn to play better. That'll fix it.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
This is the sad part honestly. It hurts Eldar players the most.

It does not hurt Eldar players in the least.

Yes it does. Some Eldar players have already agreed it hurts them.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
It hurts weak "competitive" players who can't compete, who don't adapt, and who need Easy Buttons to win.

So you mean it hurts people who also don't spam OP poorly constructed units?

JohnHwangDD wrote:
The QQing and TwT that's dominating the boards right now are the same as when Wraithlords were broken in 3E (they weren't).

The rules are different than in 3e, so this comment is pointless. They have strong rules about to come out.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Players need to step up and learn to play instead of crying for mommy every time some other Codex gets some cool stuff.

Okay nice trolling comment.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
GW despises what the competitive scene has become, and I love what they've been doing to juice things.

Nice work presuming you know the inner thinking of GW.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
This is the sad part honestly. It hurts Eldar players the most.

It does not hurt Eldar players in the least.

It hurts weak "competitive" players who can't compete, who don't adapt, and who need Easy Buttons to win.

The QQing and TwT that's dominating the boards right now are the same as when Wraithlords were broken in 3E (they weren't).

Players need to step up and learn to play instead of crying for mommy every time some other Codex gets some cool stuff.


GW despises what the competitive scene has become, and I love what they've been doing to juice things.

Why don't the Eldar players need to learn to play?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
This is the sad part honestly. It hurts Eldar players the most.

It does not hurt Eldar players in the least.

It hurts weak "competitive" players who can't compete, who don't adapt, and who need Easy Buttons to win.

How does an easy button codex hurt a player that feels he/she needs easy buttons to win? It would help them by providing a style of play they like, I would think.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Why don't the Eldar players need to learn to play?

Eldar players have already transcended the need for petty things like tactics and strategy.

 Blacksails wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Why don't the Eldar players need to learn to play?

Eldar players have already transcended the need for petty things like tactics and strategy.

Ah yes, of course. I forgot.

Let's not forget they are a dying race. For all we know, this could very well be their last codex before GW declares them extinct.

Can we all please step back a second and realise we're talking about little plastic men? Seriously, calm down. If you treat 40K as anything other than a weird little hobby, maybe you should slow down a little bit....

nudibranch wrote:
Can we all please step back a second and realise we're talking about little plastic men? Seriously, calm down. If you treat 40K as anything other than a weird little hobby, maybe you should slow down a little bit....

Everyone's calm, I can assure you. There's been plenty of comedic relief to indicate that. If you're sensing seriousness, maybe you're reading this too intently, and I'd ask you to calm down and remember we're talking about plastic soldiers.

 Blacksails wrote:

nudibranch wrote:
Can we all please step back a second and realise we're talking about little plastic men? Seriously, calm down. If you treat 40K as anything other than a weird little hobby, maybe you should slow down a little bit....

Everyone's calm, I can assure you. There's been plenty of comedic relief to indicate that. If you're sensing seriousness, maybe you're reading this too intently, and I'd ask you to calm down and remember we're talking about plastic soldiers.

Some people seem awfully serious... Sorry, I'm not good with sarcasm.

 Blacksails wrote:
I don't know if that's sarcasm or not...

Its certainly a great parody of a few posters' thoughts I've read so far.

If you are serious, I'm sure everyone just needs to adapt harder. Buy the latest book, buy the latest expensive model, ignore themes or fluff and just build the hardest list possible. Nevermind that a codex that is substantially more powerful than the rest hurts all players, regardless of their preferred style of play.

But I'm sure everyone just needs to adapt and learn to play better. That'll fix it.

Deadly fething serious, pal.

This "chicken little" stuff comes out every time. Also the "my army is destroyed". It's ridiculous.

Again, DEADLY SERIOUS.

They do. Especially the playing, as in "having fun", separate from "kicking the other guy's ass".

So you'd be absolutely stoked to play against my 1 point reaver Titan then? (Plus the other 1849 points of army.) you wouldn't say anything about how that seems a little broken?

I guess if you can't beat my 1 point reaver Titan, you just need to adapt and learn to play, right?

Maybe I'll throw in a couple 1 point knights, and some 1 point stormravens too. Remember, you're not allowed to complain at all or you're a "QQing crybaby."

If you can show me the GW Codex where it's printed, I'm good with it.

If you're just making gak up, I can do that, too.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If you can show me the GW Codex where it's printed, I'm good with it.

If you're just making gak up, I can do that, too.

I'll take that as a "I'm going to say yes knowing that there is not actually a 1 point reaver Titan anywhere officially, and I hope he doesn't realize I would quickly change my tune if one ever showed up."

The 1 point Titan is an analogy for anything that is obviously unbalanced in a very powerful way, in case you were unsure.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I don't know if that's sarcasm or not...

Its certainly a great parody of a few posters' thoughts I've read so far.

If you are serious, I'm sure everyone just needs to adapt harder. Buy the latest book, buy the latest expensive model, ignore themes or fluff and just build the hardest list possible. Nevermind that a codex that is substantially more powerful than the rest hurts all players, regardless of their preferred style of play.

But I'm sure everyone just needs to adapt and learn to play better. That'll fix it.

Deadly fething serious, pal.

This "chicken little" stuff comes out every time. Also the "my army is destroyed". It's ridiculous.

Again, DEADLY SERIOUS.

They do. Especially the playing, as in "having fun", separate from "kicking the other guy's ass".

The difference here is that ranged D just became a troop/elite option....so yeah there is a piece of sky falling.

 agnosto wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I don't know if that's sarcasm or not...

Its certainly a great parody of a few posters' thoughts I've read so far.

If you are serious, I'm sure everyone just needs to adapt harder. Buy the latest book, buy the latest expensive model, ignore themes or fluff and just build the hardest list possible. Nevermind that a codex that is substantially more powerful than the rest hurts all players, regardless of their preferred style of play.

But I'm sure everyone just needs to adapt and learn to play better. That'll fix it.

Deadly fething serious, pal.

This "chicken little" stuff comes out every time. Also the "my army is destroyed". It's ridiculous.

Again, DEADLY SERIOUS.

They do. Especially the playing, as in "having fun", separate from "kicking the other guy's ass".

The difference here is that ranged D just became a troop/elite option....so yeah there is a piece of sky falling.

Wraithguard can no longer be taken as troops according to what individuals are saying.

That being said where is the rest of the troop D coming from ?

The Imperial Answer wrote:


Wraithguard can no longer be taken as troops according to what individuals are saying.

That being said where is the rest of the troop D coming from ?

According to the guy who seems totally above board, and has snapped pictures of himself holding the codex, yeah:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/04/boom-eldar-rules-tidalwave.html

Says they are Elites, can't be taken as troops with Spiritseer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blacksails wrote:

nudibranch wrote:
Can we all please step back a second and realise we're talking about little plastic men? Seriously, calm down. If you treat 40K as anything other than a weird little hobby, maybe you should slow down a little bit....

Everyone's calm, I can assure you. There's been plenty of comedic relief to indicate that. If you're sensing seriousness, maybe you're reading this too intently, and I'd ask you to calm down and remember we're talking about plastic soldiers.

As soon as I pick up my latest overpriced black-spined hardcover on Tuesday or Wednesday, my plastic soldiers (Women too... where's the Sisterslove!!) will suddenly implode, swallowed by the void. So it has been written by the Lords of Chaos, so shall it be.

If that doesn't happen, well, praise be the Emperor, and PARTY ON!

Okay to everyone who keeps saying sales are all they worry about. Your right and your totally wrong. I'm going to explain.

A company is not an all seeing all knowing entity.

If they see models all of a sudden stop selling they could think almost anything.

Most of the time they'll turn to try and true methods of data to attempt to get things back on track.

If there is no message to the actions then they have no way to know why their sales are falling.

To them it just looks like an army is unpopular and they'll just stop selling it and making it. Simple as that. Then make something new and perpetuate the cycle.

Everyone in here is under the impression that boycotting them would suddenly make them enlighten. No it wouldn't. It would get their attention, but we also need to let them know why. Which is why we would need to bombard them at all levels of social media with the message and stir up a big controversy as well as a boycotte.

Doing one or the other alone in a bubble will not achieve anything.

Now if there is a huge gak storm of anger and rage combined with the action of boycotting and bad press that's something any company hates. This way they know why we're mad, we're getting the wider geek community involved by showing how terrible this company is, and we're hurting their sales all at once. If all we did was just stop buying their stuff they'll just stop making it and go on with life.

Your passive bs isn't cutting it folks. Seriously when a girl thinks she is being all subtle and cute trying to get your attention by doing some random thing instead of just woman up and speaking to you don't you feel a lot better? Like gak no more of these stupid games that just gets each party confused. You need to get in their face and be eye catching. With GW you need to be obnoxious. I'm attempting to do that by pissing off the Eldar player base and Tournament player base so much they ban Eldar. Wow think of the headlines. The more negative press we generate, the more people we get, and the more negative press we can thus make. This gak needs to explode. And it easily could if people have even the tiniest fraction of backbone.

At the same time I am encouraging all Eldar to use the maximum cheese and crush every last opponent and codex under the sun so bad no one but Eldar will play.

 Blacksails wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Why don't the Eldar players need to learn to play?

Eldar players have already transcended the need for petty things like tactics and strategy.

Yup, all our low T, high armor save units (the entire codex), make it a brainless army. You can just push the models around the table making pew pew noises and you automatically score every possible victory point while denying every possible point for your opponent. Hell, I could probably give a 13 year old my eldar list and he could beat Nanavati with his Adepticon list the first try.

/sarcasm

The hyperbole over this new eldar book has reached record levels, even for dakka. This army is powerful but it's also a glass cannon. 3+ save doesn't mean much any more. If you move 20-30 bikes in and out of ruins, some will die from terrain tests. If you don't have them in cover, they will end up jinking. If they jink, their firepower is seriously reduced. If they don't jink, their firepower is also reduced from taking casualties. It's not unbeatable, you just won't be able to use your DA from dark vengeance with an expansion and a couple models you thought looked cool to beat eldar (which you couldn't do with their last codex anyway, or space marines, or necrons, or daemons).

A general reminder to all users that insulting other posters does not help your argument at all, and also that we do not allow single image posts, either type a proper answer or don't bother.

Thank you.

 Toofast wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Why don't the Eldar players need to learn to play?

Eldar players have already transcended the need for petty things like tactics and strategy.

The hyperbole over this new eldar book has reached record levels, even for dakka. This army is powerful but it's also a glass cannon. 3+ save doesn't mean much any more. If you move 20-30 bikes in and out of ruins, some will die from terrain tests. If you don't have them in cover, they will end up jinking. If they jink, their firepower is seriously reduced. If they don't jink, their firepower is also reduced from taking casualties. It's not unbeatable, you just won't be able to use your DA from dark vengeance with an expansion and a couple models you thought looked cool to beat eldar (which you couldn't do with their last codex anyway, or space marines, or necrons, or daemons).

Do you really think there's a codex in game currently that is not less powerful than the current Eldar one?

Personally, I don't think they're unbeatable by any of the good codexes currently in play (I'm also looking forward to adding 15-20 jetbikes to my Tau army ), just that they're the most powerful codex ATM, and by the looks of it not by a small margin.

 reds8n wrote:
A general reminder to all users that insulting other posters does not help your argument at all, and also that we do not allow single image posts, either type a proper answer or don't bother.

Thank you.

Thank you. It is getting beyond the pale now with so many people insulting those who are merely stating they think the new eldar broken.

Also to those who say it is just a game of little plastic men. You are correct. However you are entierly missing the point that many of us have put thousands and thousands of pounds into this hobby and something that has the potential to take out enjoyment from the hobby is a big deal.

to be honest I don't think the jetbikes are the problem, its the mass of strength D on small units of 5 which is just beyond amazing.

I think wraiths constructs are OP, and jetbikes are borderline but the two together makes for extremely competitive lists


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Distort has always been good but usually amazing on a roll of 6, now they are just straight up always amazing.

it should be something like a 6 to hit causes the shot to be D. (still amazing IMO)

 RED EYE JEDI wrote:
to be honest I don't think the jetbikes are the problem, its the mass of strength D on small units of 5 which is just beyond amazing.

I think wraiths constructs are OP, and jetbikes are borderline but the two together makes for extremely competitive lists


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Distort has always been good but usually amazing on a roll of 6, now they are just straight up always amazing.

it should be something like a 6 to hit causes the shot to be D. (still amazing IMO)

IMO that isn't a terribly big problem. before it was str 10 ap2 anyways so it was wounding most things on a 2-3 anways, plus they are 12" range and will melt to any ap3 weapon, which there are plenty.

Boycott! of Eldar! named Operation Pitchfork! I love it.

I dont love it because of rules, I just hate ponytail Eldar. Cant join though, not playing the game atm.

It's hilarious how the codieces are now both bland and unbalanced.

Boycott of the new codex only sounds more realistic btw. Play with old dex or go home, it's time for something like that preferably for all blatantly overpowered codieces from now on.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

 RED EYE JEDI wrote:
to be honest I don't think the jetbikes are the problem, its the mass of strength D on small units of 5 which is just beyond amazing.

I think wraiths constructs are OP, and jetbikes are borderline but the two together makes for extremely competitive lists


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Distort has always been good but usually amazing on a roll of 6, now they are just straight up always amazing.

it should be something like a 6 to hit causes the shot to be D. (still amazing IMO)

IMO that isn't a terribly big problem. before it was str 10 ap2 anyways so it was wounding most things on a 2-3 anways, plus they are 12" range and will melt to any ap3 weapon, which there are plenty.

Unless they come across a Titan and kill it in one round of shooting.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

 RED EYE JEDI wrote:
to be honest I don't think the jetbikes are the problem, its the mass of strength D on small units of 5 which is just beyond amazing.

I think wraiths constructs are OP, and jetbikes are borderline but the two together makes for extremely competitive lists


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Distort has always been good but usually amazing on a roll of 6, now they are just straight up always amazing.

it should be something like a 6 to hit causes the shot to be D. (still amazing IMO)

IMO that isn't a terribly big problem. before it was str 10 ap2 anyways so it was wounding most things on a 2-3 anways, plus they are 12" range and will melt to any ap3 weapon, which there are plenty.

Unless they come across a Titan and kill it in one round of shooting.

this is what I was thinking ^

Poly Ranger wrote:

 reds8n wrote:
A general reminder to all users that insulting other posters does not help your argument at all, and also that we do not allow single image posts, either type a proper answer or don't bother.

Thank you.

Thank you. It is getting beyond the pale now with so many people insulting those who are merely stating they think the new eldar broken.

Also to those who say it is just a game of little plastic men. You are correct. However you are entierly missing the point that many of us have put thousands and thousands of pounds into this hobby and something that has the potential to take out enjoyment from the hobby is a big deal.

Correct. It is just a game with man dollies, but not all of us agree that the codex is broken. Some of us play with everything allowed and have no issue with the new codex information. Thus, demands that the book be immediately FAQ, altered, comped or whatever else folks are demanding are not universally shared. Adjust the book however you want so you and those you game with have fun. Others, like myself, will take it at face value and still enjoy the game.

 Sarigar wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

 reds8n wrote:
A general reminder to all users that insulting other posters does not help your argument at all, and also that we do not allow single image posts, either type a proper answer or don't bother.

Thank you.

Thank you. It is getting beyond the pale now with so many people insulting those who are merely stating they think the new eldar broken.

Also to those who say it is just a game of little plastic men. You are correct. However you are entierly missing the point that many of us have put thousands and thousands of pounds into this hobby and something that has the potential to take out enjoyment from the hobby is a big deal.

Correct. It is just a game with man dollies, but not all of us agree that the codex is broken. Some of us play with everything allowed and have no issue with the new codex information. Thus, demands that the book be immediately FAQ, altered, comped or whatever else folks are demanding are not universally shared. Adjust the book however you want so you and those you game with have fun. Others, like myself, will take it at face value and still enjoy the game.

I'm curious how you play that you don't find issue with it. I don't mean that rudely or sarcastically just I see people always counter argue that their group finds nothing wrong with otherwise-OP options, and I always wonder why, because it's apparent to everyone that being able to take ranged D weapons on regular units is very powerful, or being able to take a ton of high STR shots the same. I get that not everyone is going to just spam scatter lasers because they can (in fact I'd wager most people aren't)

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I don't know if that's sarcasm or not...

Its certainly a great parody of a few posters' thoughts I've read so far.

If you are serious, I'm sure everyone just needs to adapt harder. Buy the latest book, buy the latest expensive model, ignore themes or fluff and just build the hardest list possible. Nevermind that a codex that is substantially more powerful than the rest hurts all players, regardless of their preferred style of play.

But I'm sure everyone just needs to adapt and learn to play better. That'll fix it.

Deadly fething serious, pal.

This "chicken little" stuff comes out every time. Also the "my army is destroyed". It's ridiculous.

Again, DEADLY SERIOUS.

They do. Especially the playing, as in "having fun", separate from "kicking the other guy's ass".

It's a competitive game whether GW wants to admit it or not. 95% of the games I've had have been about kicking ass, not the narrative. And that's since 1994.

This is the silliest thing I have ever read. Seriously - just go play another game that you will enjoy.

Yeah, screw that guy for trying to improve something he cares about. He should just throw all his models away and find something else on which to spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours.

 Sarigar wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

 reds8n wrote:
A general reminder to all users that insulting other posters does not help your argument at all, and also that we do not allow single image posts, either type a proper answer or don't bother.

Thank you.

Thank you. It is getting beyond the pale now with so many people insulting those who are merely stating they think the new eldar broken.

Also to those who say it is just a game of little plastic men. You are correct. However you are entierly missing the point that many of us have put thousands and thousands of pounds into this hobby and something that has the potential to take out enjoyment from the hobby is a big deal.

Correct. It is just a game with man dollies, but not all of us agree that the codex is broken. Some of us play with everything allowed and have no issue with the new codex information. Thus, demands that the book be immediately FAQ, altered, comped or whatever else folks are demanding are not universally shared. Adjust the book however you want so you and those you game with have fun. Others, like myself, will take it at face value and still enjoy the game.

Oh look another Eldar player who says the codex is fine... and the classic the game is about man dollies. How about whenever you play a game you do an army swap? At this rate I'm of the opinion if you have Eldar flavor text under your name, opinion discarded.

Considering I've heard people argue on this board that Sisters of Battle are overpowered, I take anything any of you say with more salt than Earth's oceans contain.

You always have to consider the source. Does the math support SoB being considered OP? Didn't think so. Better than some other lists? Sure.

Yeah, and to me it looks like the source is "people complaining that a codex other than theirs is strong and using that as an excuse to spout hyperbole and pretend to ragequit".

Just like they do every single edition for some other codex. It's nothing new under the sun. You'll live. 40k won't 'be destroyed, hell it probably won't even be hurt by this. Every single time, someone spouts "well this time it's worse and I mean it!" but then life goes on and their hyperbole ends up being just that-- hyperbole.

tl;dr: people here have cried wolf so many times that I don't care what they think any more.

Well, I took a hiatus from mid 6th until the 7th ed BA codex came out. It wouldn't break my heart to sit out again until BA get a codex that can compete. There's lots of other things I can do. And if I have to move across the country in the meantime, I'd have no hesitation in letting go all my models. They just aren't that dear to me.

Martel732 wrote:
Well, I took a hiatus from mid 6th until the 7th ed BA codex came out. It wouldn't break my heart to sit out again until BA get a codex that can compete.

I've been waiting for new models for well over a decade, BA at least had their time in the sun

 Melissia wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, I took a hiatus from mid 6th until the 7th ed BA codex came out. It wouldn't break my heart to sit out again until BA get a codex that can compete.

I've been waiting for new models for well over a decade, BA at least had their time in the sun

Not really. Unless you mean 3rd ed. The Ward codex was never really better than SW, and was quickly made a joke by Necrons and GK.

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, and to me it looks like the source is "people complaining that a codex other than theirs is strong and using that as an excuse to spout hyperbole and pretend to ragequit".

Just like they do every single edition for some other codex. It's nothing new under the sun. You'll live. 40k won't 'be destroyed, hell it probably won't even be hurt by this. Every single time, someone spouts "well this time it's worse and I mean it!" but then life goes on and their hyperbole ends up being just that-- hyperbole.

tl;dr: people here have cried wolf so many times that I don't care what they think any more.

Oh hey,

fact: They have a easily spammable Str: D
fact: They have the best troop in the game
fact: They have the best GC in the game
fact: They currently have an awesome psychic deathstar and the current leaks point to it becoming better
fact: They have always been THE top army for the majority of this game's lifespan

Other tidbit, none of us said 40k was dead. There still are other factions to play with and get a balanced game.

Martel732 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, I took a hiatus from mid 6th until the 7th ed BA codex came out. It wouldn't break my heart to sit out again until BA get a codex that can compete.

I've been waiting for new models for well over a decade, BA at least had their time in the sun

Not really. Unless you mean 3rd ed. The Ward codex was never really better than SW, and was quickly made a joke by Necrons and GK.

Necrons weren't really any better until 6E hit, and the whole book was just built to fit 6th to a tee perfectly.

BA were still very much a power army in 5th and did rather well in that edition. 6E pretty much wrecked most Imperial armies however.

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, and to me it looks like the source is "people complaining that a codex other than theirs is strong and using that as an excuse to spout hyperbole and pretend to ragequit".

Just like they do every single edition for some other codex. It's nothing new under the sun. You'll live. 40k won't 'be destroyed, hell it probably won't even be hurt by this. Every single time, someone spouts "well this time it's worse and I mean it!" but then life goes on and their hyperbole ends up being just that-- hyperbole.

tl;dr: people here have cried wolf so many times that I don't care what they think any more.

Except...we don't see this with every release. Aside from this and the Necron codex, there really hasn't been much in the way of "omg OP codex" in quite a while except Knights, and particularly in the last year or more. There certainly wasn't anything remotely near the same gnashing of teeth with the GK, Ork, Skitarii, IG, Harlequin, SW, BA, etc books, and what little there was was usually confined to specific things like Formation bonuses.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Except...we don't see this with every release.

Yesssss you do. Five years I've on this forum, five years that this forum has been filled with hyperbole and nonsense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:
fact: They have a easily spammable Str: D
fact: They have the best troop in the game
fact: They have the best GC in the game
fact: They currently have an awesome psychic deathstar and the current leaks point to it becoming better
fact: They have always been THE top army for the majority of this game's lifespan

Other tidbit, none of us said 40k was dead. There still are other factions to play with and get a balanced game.

Hyperbole claiming to be facts is not the same as actual facts.

The Imperial Answer wrote:


Wraithguard can no longer be taken as troops according to what individuals are saying.

That being said where is the rest of the troop D coming from ?

So they're going to expressly invalidate the Iyanden supplement? Groovy.

Yeah, you're right. For some reason I confused Vauls with guardian platforms...

With wraithknight moving to LoW, you can take Vaul batteries in the heavy so 3 units of those can produce 9 S D blasts, granted at 24". The stated formation gives them preferred enemy too. All for the current price of 165pts per battery. . That's some cheap S D shooting...

5 wraithgaurd in a holo-fielded/bright lance WS for 295pts x 3 = 885
50 scatter jet bikes = 1350
Vaul battery (3) @ 165
farseer on a jetbike for 115....hm 15 pts over 2500. meh, whatevs.

15 12" S D shots, 200 S6 AP 6 shots, 3 24" S D blasts. that's a lot o shooting tex.

 Melissia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Except...we don't see this with every release.

Yesssss you do. Five years I've on this forum, five years that this forum has been filled with hyperbole and nonsense.

There's always hyperbole and nonsense, but who was concerned with the GK, IG, Skitarii, Ork, etc eleases with anything like we're seeing now?

That said, a lot of the stuff in the game now, especially with this Eldar release, was just a *very* short time ago quite literally was confined to the realm of hyperbole.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Except...we don't see this with every release.

Yesssss you do. Five years I've on this forum, five years that this forum has been filled with hyperbole and nonsense.

There's always hyperbole and nonsense, but who was sitting around with the GK, IG, Skitarii, or Ork releases with anything like we're seeing now?

When fifth edition Guard came out, there was spaz about that. Space Wolves got spaz. Grey Knights got spaz. Hell, Tyranids got spaz this time from players thinking it was too weak to do anything at all). Spaz spaz spaz and more spaz. Dakka's always been a hotbed of hyperbole and "it's OMGWTFBBQ so OP!"

 Melissia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Except...we don't see this with every release.

Yesssss you do. Five years I've on this forum, five years that this forum has been filled with hyperbole and nonsense.

There's always hyperbole and nonsense, but who was sitting around with the GK, IG, Skitarii, or Ork releases with anything like we're seeing now?

When fifth edition Guard came out, there was spaz about that. Space Wolves got spaz. Grey Knights got spaz.

Yeah, five and six years and two editions ago. Not the releases over the last year, at least not to anything like we're seeing now.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Except...we don't see this with every release.

Yesssss you do. Five years I've on this forum, five years that this forum has been filled with hyperbole and nonsense.

There's always hyperbole and nonsense, but who was sitting around with the GK, IG, Skitarii, or Ork releases with anything like we're seeing now?

When fifth edition Guard came out, there was spaz about that. Space Wolves got spaz. Grey Knights got spaz.

Yeah, five and six years and two editions ago. Not the releases over the last year, at least not to anything like we're seeing now.

Selective memories.

There's no credibility to the chicken little claims made in this thread.

 Melissia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Except...we don't see this with every release.

Yesssss you do. Five years I've on this forum, five years that this forum has been filled with hyperbole and nonsense.

There's always hyperbole and nonsense, but who was sitting around with the GK, IG, Skitarii, or Ork releases with anything like we're seeing now?

When fifth edition Guard came out, there was spaz about that. Space Wolves got spaz. Grey Knights got spaz.

Yeah, five and six years and two editions ago. Not the releases over the last year, at least not to anything like we're seeing now.

Selective memories.

Well, when you find me the thread about how the Astra Militarum release was going to dominate and overthrow the game, let me know I guess.

There's no credibility to the chicken little claims made in this thread.

By this do you mean that you're assuming none of the leaks are true, or that you just don't think they're a big deal?

Actually no, this site stores threads. Go dig some up and prove us wrong.

 Melissia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Except...we don't see this with every release.

Yesssss you do. Five years I've on this forum, five years that this forum has been filled with hyperbole and nonsense.

There's always hyperbole and nonsense, but who was sitting around with the GK, IG, Skitarii, or Ork releases with anything like we're seeing now?

When fifth edition Guard came out, there was spaz about that. Space Wolves got spaz. Grey Knights got spaz. Hell, Tyranids got spaz this time from players thinking it was too weak to do anything at all). Spaz spaz spaz and more spaz. Dakka's always been a hotbed of hyperbole and "it's OMGWTFBBQ so OP!"

You conveniently left out the part where all those people turned out to be right.
IG was the strongest army for a time (Leafblower). SW were a top tournament army with their insanely cheap missile launcher. Do we even need to talk about Grey Knights? And 5th Tyranids turned out to be pretty weak as well.

This is what bugs me about those "YOU STUPID THE-SKY-IS-FALLING PEOPLE" posts. They completely ignore, that most of the time those people are exactly right in the long run.

I'm enjoying some of the responses on this forum. "I don't agree with you, therefor your post is hyperbole".

Yup, sounds about right.

Either way, the Eldar players in my group got the most out of their Wraithguard last night, as they probably won't play them anytime soon after the new codex. It sucks when they're made to feel that way, because even they themselves think it's over the top. So, say what you want, but I don't play this game to watch Eldar constantly trump every other army.

 Code wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Except...we don't see this with every release.

Yesssss you do. Five years I've on this forum, five years that this forum has been filled with hyperbole and nonsense.

There's always hyperbole and nonsense, but who was sitting around with the GK, IG, Skitarii, or Ork releases with anything like we're seeing now?

When fifth edition Guard came out, there was spaz about that. Space Wolves got spaz. Grey Knights got spaz. Hell, Tyranids got spaz this time from players thinking it was too weak to do anything at all). Spaz spaz spaz and more spaz. Dakka's always been a hotbed of hyperbole and "it's OMGWTFBBQ so OP!"

You conveniently left out the part where all those people turned out to be right.
IG was the strongest army for a time (Leafblower). SW were a top tournament army with their insanely cheap missile launcher. Do we even need to talk about Grey Knights? And 5th Tyranids turned out to be pretty weak as well.

This is what bugs me about those "YOU STUPID THE-SKY-IS-FALLING PEOPLE" posts. They completely ignore, that most of the time those people are exactly right in the long run.

So why didn't we ban Guard, GK, and Wolves back then?

 Melissia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Except...we don't see this with every release.

Yesssss you do. Five years I've on this forum, five years that this forum has been filled with hyperbole and nonsense.

There's always hyperbole and nonsense, but who was sitting around with the GK, IG, Skitarii, or Ork releases with anything like we're seeing now?

When fifth edition Guard came out, there was spaz about that. Space Wolves got spaz. Grey Knights got spaz. Hell, Tyranids got spaz this time from players thinking it was too weak to do anything at all). Spaz spaz spaz and more spaz. Dakka's always been a hotbed of hyperbole and "it's OMGWTFBBQ so OP!"

I wasn't playing when 5th ed guard was released. Which versions of GK and SW are you talking about? The latest ones didn't really seem to attract much "spaz". Certainly not the half dozen simultaneous running threads dedicated to the new Eldar dex, the most I remember was some stuff about TWC, but I don't think anyone actually thought it was all that awesome.

Tyranids didn't get "spaz" for being too weak to do ANYTHING AT ALL, they got "spaz" for being monobuild in a competitive environment... which they were and still are. They got fully justified "spaz" because GW didn't fix any of the glaring internal balance issues that existed in the previous codex.

There was talk in the circles I ran in at that time. 5th ed IG was one of the most humbling matchups for meqs at the time. It was crazy. In a way, the 5th ed IG codex was the first "modern" codex. Ie, firepower as an absolute trump card. Assault can stay home and cry.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Code wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Except...we don't see this with every release.

Yesssss you do. Five years I've on this forum, five years that this forum has been filled with hyperbole and nonsense.

There's always hyperbole and nonsense, but who was sitting around with the GK, IG, Skitarii, or Ork releases with anything like we're seeing now?

When fifth edition Guard came out, there was spaz about that. Space Wolves got spaz. Grey Knights got spaz. Hell, Tyranids got spaz this time from players thinking it was too weak to do anything at all). Spaz spaz spaz and more spaz. Dakka's always been a hotbed of hyperbole and "it's OMGWTFBBQ so OP!"

You conveniently left out the part where all those people turned out to be right.
IG was the strongest army for a time (Leafblower). SW were a top tournament army with their insanely cheap missile launcher. Do we even need to talk about Grey Knights? And 5th Tyranids turned out to be pretty weak as well.

This is what bugs me about those "YOU STUPID THE-SKY-IS-FALLING PEOPLE" posts. They completely ignore, that most of the time those people are exactly right in the long run.

So why didn't we ban Guard, GK, and Wolves back then?

Maybe the disparity between "strong" and "op" wasn't as big in 5th edition as it is in 7th.

It was big. Make no mistake. Maybe the years of this happening over and over is provoking stronger and stronger responses.

There was a marine player who literally flipped a table and damaged hundreds of dollars of IG tanks because the IG guy killed like 55 marines in a turn. It was bad. The BA had a WD codex at the time. Hilarious!

 Code wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Code wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Except...we don't see this with every release.

Yesssss you do. Five years I've on this forum, five years that this forum has been filled with hyperbole and nonsense.

There's always hyperbole and nonsense, but who was sitting around with the GK, IG, Skitarii, or Ork releases with anything like we're seeing now?

When fifth edition Guard came out, there was spaz about that. Space Wolves got spaz. Grey Knights got spaz. Hell, Tyranids got spaz this time from players thinking it was too weak to do anything at all). Spaz spaz spaz and more spaz. Dakka's always been a hotbed of hyperbole and "it's OMGWTFBBQ so OP!"

You conveniently left out the part where all those people turned out to be right.
IG was the strongest army for a time (Leafblower). SW were a top tournament army with their insanely cheap missile launcher. Do we even need to talk about Grey Knights? And 5th Tyranids turned out to be pretty weak as well.

This is what bugs me about those "YOU STUPID THE-SKY-IS-FALLING PEOPLE" posts. They completely ignore, that most of the time those people are exactly right in the long run.

So why didn't we ban Guard, GK, and Wolves back then?

Maybe the disparity between "strong" and "op" wasn't as big in 5th edition as it is in 7th.

I'm not buying that.

I didn't play GK for fifth, I went to orkz. Was more fun and was still assault-based.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Code wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Except...we don't see this with every release.

Yesssss you do. Five years I've on this forum, five years that this forum has been filled with hyperbole and nonsense.

There's always hyperbole and nonsense, but who was sitting around with the GK, IG, Skitarii, or Ork releases with anything like we're seeing now?

When fifth edition Guard came out, there was spaz about that. Space Wolves got spaz. Grey Knights got spaz. Hell, Tyranids got spaz this time from players thinking it was too weak to do anything at all). Spaz spaz spaz and more spaz. Dakka's always been a hotbed of hyperbole and "it's OMGWTFBBQ so OP!"

You conveniently left out the part where all those people turned out to be right.
IG was the strongest army for a time (Leafblower). SW were a top tournament army with their insanely cheap missile launcher. Do we even need to talk about Grey Knights? And 5th Tyranids turned out to be pretty weak as well.

This is what bugs me about those "YOU STUPID THE-SKY-IS-FALLING PEOPLE" posts. They completely ignore, that most of the time those people are exactly right in the long run.

So why didn't we ban Guard, GK, and Wolves back then?

Partly because in many cases they had always been crap armies before that, as opposed to the Necron and Eldar books which both were top tier armies just made stronger

GK and IG especially were garbage armies from a competitive standpoint before their 5E books and had been for...pretty much ever, they'd never really been good.

But really, they just didn't have anything like what we're seeing from the Necron and Eldar books or "pulled from the realm of late night 4chan threads" the way this Eldar release is shaping up.

That said, I'm not advocating banning Eldar either (I don't think I've made any such statement anywhere).

Martel732 wrote:
There was talk in the circles I ran in at that time. 5th ed IG was one of the most humbling matchups for meqs at the time. It was crazy. In a way, the 5th ed IG codex was the first "modern" codex. Ie, firepower as an absolute trump card. Assault can stay home and cry.

Hrm, Space Marines, Space Wolves, BA's, and GK's weren't anything near helpless against IG. IG were one amongst several. Between SW long fang/razorback spam, SM Vulkan armies, Mech/Drop BA, and Mech GK, they matched IG pretty well if not better in many cases (certainly most were showing better tournament placing by the end of 5th than IG). IG could be absolutely brutal, but depended much more on getting turn 1 than any other army, and reserve denial worked amazingly well in 5th.

I'm talking when IG first dropped.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm talking when IG first dropped.

Eh, for a very short time perhaps. SW's came out just a few months later, SM's had come out ~7 months or so before and were doing *very* well with Vulkan armies (in fact, from the release of the SM book until SW's came out, I didn't seen an SM army that *didn't* have Vulkan, then everyone hopped on the "counts-as Space Wolves" train).

There was a lot of hype around IG after 'ar-boyz 2009, but that army also got first turn every game it played in the finals and had lots of opponents play into it by the player's own admission.

For an average player, however, they were insane.

I mean, competitively built 5E mech IG versus average joe non-vulkan SM's? Sure, super terrifying. But any non-mech IG army wasn't scaring anyone either

In short, there was a mono-build, not a codex-wide buff and viability.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I mean, competitively built 5E mech IG versus average joe non-vulkan SM's? Sure, super terrifying. But any non-mech IG army wasn't scaring anyone either

That's all I was trying to point out. Now imagine regular lists against this Eldar codex. It's the same thing, but even worse.

Where there's smoke there's fire. Melissa, you can't ignore everyone's opinion that doesn't agree with yours. People are pissed and they're pissed for a reason. For them, a close and fair game is what they find fun. They believe that the new eldar dex is so overpowered that it ruins their fun. The maths and passed experience makes them believe they are right. I've never seen so many posts about one codex release before and they're all really negative. Maybe instead of ignoring and insulting you try to reason with them and listen.

I think there's a non-trivial amount of masochists that play this game and they look FORWARD to being crushed by the Eldar. That's all I've got at this point.

Can we wait two months after the codex comes out to make a judgement. This is like people loosing their minds about the new star wars movie.

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I mean, competitively built 5E mech IG versus average joe non-vulkan SM's? Sure, super terrifying. But any non-mech IG army wasn't scaring anyone either

That's all I was trying to point out. Now imagine regular lists against this Eldar codex. It's the same thing, but even worse.

Go a step further - the competitive lists people are tailoring to beat the proposed Eldar power lists aren't really holding much of a candle.

In 5th, the power armies all stood a chance against one another. Even Chaos stood a pretty good chance with double Lash sorcerers. Dash of Pepper was routinely beating faces with Orks and the old phase out Necrons. It wasn't balanced but it was the most balanced edition to date.

Maybe system restoring 40k to 5th edition isn't the best answer, but it's a better answer than playing 7th edition. The fact is that people aren't just complaining about 40k because the game is far less balanced, they're complaining because it's a completely different game - one that a lot of people have a declining desire to play.


In the end, money talks. I built 3 armies over the course of 5th edition, and an honest cost estimate would be around $5000. Between 6th and 7 I've spent literally nothing because the game is fething garbage and I'd rather spend $5000 on a luxury watch or a bunch of guns than plastic men for a cracked out rule set that gets worse with every release.

Also Banshees are pretty good now ironically. Better than Wyches actually (and unfortunately).

 MWHistorian wrote:
Melissa, you can't ignore everyone's opinion that doesn't agree with yours.

You are obviously unfamiliar with Melisia.

j_p_chess wrote:
Can we wait two months after the codex comes out to make a judgement. This is like people loosing their minds about the new star wars movie.

Except pictures of the Codex have actually been shown. It's not speculation, it's fact. This would be like someone getting the finished version of the new star wars movie before it's been out in theaters.

j_p_chess wrote:
Can we wait two months after the codex comes out to make a judgement. This is like people loosing their minds about the new star wars movie.

So it's a perfectly sensible thing to do? Han Solo and Millenium Falcon WOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

 Gamgee wrote:
The only way to get a message through to the big GW that this is completely unacceptable way to make a codex is to throw up a gak storm. The biggest way to do that? Well show them we won't even play with them. I know I intend to. Many of my players in my local FLGS intend to. Though I need to convince them to ban them from tournaments all together. The more the Eldar players complain and bitch about us complaining and bitching about their so obviously broken and favoritism codex the faster we can wrap this up. It's going to get messy before the end though. These half measures and trying to be "reasonable" with GW and even a certain subset of Eldar players is clearly not working. So it's time to kick things up a notch.

Can I at least get people who will agree to no games with them?

If there are any Eldar players out there with any remorse or guilt for the entire health of the game and 40k scene I implore you to do one of two things. Cheese the ever loving gak out of your codex and get yourself loathed and banned. Or don't play at all. Thanks.

As always the bigger we make this the quicker we'll get an answer.

Thanks. Remember cause mayhem. This Eldar Codex can't be allowed to stand.

I Gamgee swear to throw up a gak storm and use any method possible to get GW attention.

Edit
Since I started this thread and including myself there are four people who will no longer play against Eldar players. All it takes is a little team work. I'll continue to update this.
If I missed your name send me a PM or let me know in the thread and I'll add it.

Operation Members:
Gamgee
Orock
Torga_DW
Rippy

I disagree with your approach. I think you need to first demonstrate what you consider to be the problem and then show how a solution is not within reason or capability. I think those banned players will find other games/battles regardless and still others will find ways to win against them. Let's see some battle reports please.

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I mean, competitively built 5E mech IG versus average joe non-vulkan SM's? Sure, super terrifying. But any non-mech IG army wasn't scaring anyone either

That's all I was trying to point out. Now imagine regular lists against this Eldar codex. It's the same thing, but even worse.

Sure I can get on board with that.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I mean, competitively built 5E mech IG versus average joe non-vulkan SM's? Sure, super terrifying. But any non-mech IG army wasn't scaring anyone either

That's all I was trying to point out. Now imagine regular lists against this Eldar codex. It's the same thing, but even worse.

Go a step further - the competitive lists people are tailoring to beat the proposed Eldar power lists aren't really holding much of a candle.

In 5th, the power armies all stood a chance against one another. Even Chaos stood a pretty good chance with double Lash sorcerers. Dash of Pepper was routinely beating faces with Orks and the old phase out Necrons. It wasn't balanced but it was the most balanced edition to date.

Maybe system restoring 40k to 5th edition isn't the best answer, but it's a better answer than playing 7th edition. The fact is that people aren't just complaining about 40k because the game is far less balanced, they're complaining because it's a completely different game - one that a lot of people have a declining desire to play.

In the end, money talks. I built 3 armies over the course of 5th edition, and an honest cost estimate would be around $5000. Between 6th and 7 I've spent literally nothing because the game is fething garbage and I'd rather spend $5000 on a luxury watch or a bunch of guns than plastic men for a cracked out rule set that gets worse with every release.

Yeah, this mirrors my feeling pretty well. Even in 5th, with the Chaos book many of us absolutely despised, I won most of my games and several tournaments with my non-lash CSM's and I even won games with my psyker-less Eldar in 5th (reserve denial Autarch build )

Since 5th however, I've bought far less 40k stuff, and what I did buy was almost all of it 2nd hand, and instead getting into other games like Infinity, Heavy Gear, and Firestorm Armada (also putting most of it into guns, Bulgarian AK's aren't cheap)

Play experiences likewise are less consistent. Fewer "regulars", local events are averaging 8-12 players instead of ~20, and a lot more games being conceded early.

This is a joke right? Your really this uptight about a game! LMFAO diaper change......

Guys, please keep discussion polite per Rule Number One. Thanks.

As long as we're banning Eldar for being able to take Scatterbikes, can we also ban Necrons for their crazy survivability? Oh we should also ban Nids because of the ability to take 5+ Flyrants in a bound list using two detachments. Grey Knights should be banned due to their psychic shenanigans and 2+ armour, and Daemons should be banned due to their 5++ and psychic shenanigans. Let's also ban Tau due to Markerlights and Riptides.

In fact I got the perfect idea. All tournaments only allow Space Marines. You must use the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics.

A look a Eldar player using hyperbole, JUST after someone was accusing us (non-Eldar) of doing so.

Just out of curiosity but how many of those ultra OP things Happy just said could reliably beat scatterbike spam with Strength D backup and psychic shenanigans?

None really... he didn't even go for the heart w/ a 2++re-rerollable screamerstar.

 Quickjager wrote:
A look a Eldar player using hyperbole, JUST after someone was accusing us (non-Eldar) of doing so.

Correction. An Eldar player who runs a fluffy Ulthwe list.

Or do you think that a Farseer, Warlocks, Guardian squads with Bright Lances, a Crimson Hunter, 3 Warwalkers, an Artillery Battery and a Nightspinner is broken?

 Happyjew wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
A look a Eldar player using hyperbole, JUST after someone was accusing us (non-Eldar) of doing so.

Correction. An Eldar player who runs a fluffy Ulthwe list.

Or do you think that a Farseer, Warlocks, Guardian squads with Bright Lances, a Crimson Hunter, 3 Warwalkers, an Artillery Battery and a Nightspinner is broken?

Honestly, I wanted to start playing Eldar mainly because of Ulthwe. Love the paint scheme, I wanted the challenge of beating people using a lot of Guardians. However, I can't put my hands on that book without feeling I need a shower.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
A look a Eldar player using hyperbole, JUST after someone was accusing us (non-Eldar) of doing so.

Correction. An Eldar player who runs a fluffy Ulthwe list.

Or do you think that a Farseer, Warlocks, Guardian squads with Bright Lances, a Crimson Hunter, 3 Warwalkers, an Artillery Battery and a Nightspinner is broken?

Really? Because I see a Eldar jetbike w/ cannon in your gallery guess the Eldar really do have the power of foresight.

Yes, from before the 6th edition codex came out, and one model could take a shuri-cannon.

I also have squads of all the Aspects from when I ran Swordwind.

I tried Swordwind with the 6th ed codex, didn't care for it, and have been running foot-slogging Ulthwe since.


However, if the new codex allows Windriders to take a shuri-pistol...than you can accuse me of Foresight.

I'll one up all of you. I stopped playing GW games over a year ago and it is glorious. Now I look at people playing 40K & WHFB at my FLGS and snicker as they are still drinking the kool-aid. GW games are terrible and pretty much always have been. There are numerous other choices now and one and all they are superior to GW rules and gameplay. The only edge GW has is in its models and variety of paint. These 2 areas are being eaten away as well, numerous companies produce figs as good as GW's now but not on their scale and other paints are superior in quality if not quantity.

My 2 cents to everyone is ditch your GW products while people are still dumb enough to buy your old armies and evolve as a gamer to better systems.

Have a good day all, I am.

 bigyounk wrote:
I'll one up all of you. I stopped playing GW games over a year ago and it is glorious. Now I look at people playing 40K & WHFB at my FLGS and snicker as they are still drinking the kool-aid. GW games are terrible and pretty much always have been. There are numerous other choices now and one and all they are superior to GW rules and gameplay. The only edge GW has is in its models and variety of paint. These 2 areas are being eaten away as well, numerous companies produce figs as good as GW's now but not on their scale and other paints are superior in quality if not quantity.

My 2 cents to everyone is ditch your GW products while people are still dumb enough to buy your old armies and evolve as a gamer to better systems.

Have a good day all, I am.

Congrats? I understand you have a need to show how well off you are without playing GW, but your personal choice not to play 40K at all has little to do with handling Eldar specifically.

 Grimskul wrote:

 bigyounk wrote:
I'll one up all of you. I stopped playing GW games over a year ago and it is glorious. Now I look at people playing 40K & WHFB at my FLGS and snicker as they are still drinking the kool-aid. GW games are terrible and pretty much always have been. There are numerous other choices now and one and all they are superior to GW rules and gameplay. The only edge GW has is in its models and variety of paint. These 2 areas are being eaten away as well, numerous companies produce figs as good as GW's now but not on their scale and other paints are superior in quality if not quantity.

My 2 cents to everyone is ditch your GW products while people are still dumb enough to buy your old armies and evolve as a gamer to better systems.

Have a good day all, I am.

Congrats? I understand you have a need to show how well off you are without playing GW, but your personal choice not to play 40K at all has little to do with handling Eldar specifically.

I disagree. The OP wanted to stick it to GW so to speak by refusing to play Eldar. I take that to the logical next step. Eldar is just a small part of a larger problem, GW itself. I say stick it to GW by not playing any GW game at all. Money talks, not all this internet hate on this army or that one. Stop feeding the corporate asshats at GW and they will listen or go away. (I prefer the later btw)

 extremefreak17 wrote:
So why didn't we ban Guard, GK, and Wolves back then?

Many people wanted to, or especially ban specific units. That's always been a problem. Hell, I remember people wanting to ban flyrants sitll...

 Melissia wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
So why didn't we ban Guard, GK, and Wolves back then?

Many people wanted to, or especially ban specific units. That's always been a problem. Hell, I remember people wanting to ban flyrants sitll...

Hey, if it's any consolation, I play Nids and I'd ban Flyrants. Mainly because of the sheer "auto-include" nature of them.

The only thing I've always disliked is any army that can expand itself past the agreed point limit. Say we playing 2000 points. Daemons go first and spawn 200 extra points worth.

Now it's my turn and I got my 2000 points against your 2200 points. It may get worse or maybe I'll kill more/ you won't spawn as much. But the point is the army can break the agreed point limit. Or stick around better.

In the end it's nothing that a little faq cant fix:

SM get ++ instead of + ie 3++ tacticals. Or rending bolters. Or both.

Chaos same.

IG get s2 ap2 lasguns.

Sisters get ap3 flamers and ap2 heavy flamers.

Orks get WAAGH that gives +2 attacks, double the shots.

Nids get all cover restrictions on cc dropped and can shoot into cc.

Daemons get all the deepstrike fun back.

Tau get fleet.

etc.

All quick fixes and could require a bit of balancing heh.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
In the end it's nothing that a little faq cant fix:

SM get ++ instead of + ie 3++ tacticals. Or rending bolters. Or both.

Chaos same.

IG get s2 ap2 lasguns.

Sisters get ap3 flamers and ap2 heavy flamers.

Orks get WAAGH that gives +2 attacks, double the shots.

Nids get all cover restrictions on cc dropped and can shoot into cc.

Daemons get all the deepstrike fun back.

Tau get fleet.

etc.

All quick fixes and could require a bit of balancing heh.

Lol, leaving Dark Eldar as categorically the worst army in the game.

 Jimsolo wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
In the end it's nothing that a little faq cant fix:

SM get ++ instead of + ie 3++ tacticals. Or rending bolters. Or both.

Chaos same.

IG get s2 ap2 lasguns.

Sisters get ap3 flamers and ap2 heavy flamers.

Orks get WAAGH that gives +2 attacks, double the shots.

Nids get all cover restrictions on cc dropped and can shoot into cc.

Daemons get all the deepstrike fun back.

Tau get fleet.

etc.

All quick fixes and could require a bit of balancing heh.

Lol, leaving Dark Eldar as categorically the worst army in the game.

DE are easy to fix - you make their cover saves invulnerable.

 Jimsolo wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
In the end it's nothing that a little faq cant fix:

SM get ++ instead of + ie 3++ tacticals. Or rending bolters. Or both.

Chaos same.

IG get s2 ap2 lasguns.

Sisters get ap3 flamers and ap2 heavy flamers.

Orks get WAAGH that gives +2 attacks, double the shots.

Nids get all cover restrictions on cc dropped and can shoot into cc.

Daemons get all the deepstrike fun back.

Tau get fleet.

etc.

All quick fixes and could require a bit of balancing heh.

Lol, leaving Dark Eldar as categorically the worst army in the game.

We can't have that! That spot is reserved for the Sisters of Battle!

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

j_p_chess wrote:
Can we wait two months after the codex comes out to make a judgement. This is like people loosing their minds about the new star wars movie.

So it's a perfectly sensible thing to do? Han Solo and Millenium Falcon WOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

star wars episode 7: bernie madoff strikes back
After the galactic rebellion overthrew the evil sith empire,
peace was restored to the galaxy.
But then the evil bernie madoff saw his chance
and made off with the hero's fortunes.

Now, forced back into work by a lack of money
and hounded by galactic bounty hunters,
Our heroes once again must risk their lives
in pursuit of peace, justice and the money
needed to fund their lifestyles....

<<pan to IRS star cruiser firing upon han solo's millenium falcon>>

We should also ban Space Marines, Tau, all Chaos, Imperial Guard, Necrons, Orks, and anyone else I missed

 Pyeatt wrote:
We should also ban Space Marines, Tau, all Chaos, Imperial Guard, Necrons, Orks, and anyone else I missed

I disagree, their codices are not terrible overpowered like the new Eldar one.

When eldar are removed, we should ban the next strongest codex. Continue until we all go to card games

 Pyeatt wrote:
When eldar are removed, we should ban the next strongest codex. Continue until we all go to card games

I disagree, the next most powerful codex isn't stupidy over powered.

 Pyeatt wrote:
When eldar are removed, we should ban the next strongest codex. Continue until we all go to card games

Thanks for the good old reducto ad absurdum, helps demonstrate that you're being purposely obtuse about people's issues.

It's an article titled Ban Eldar from All Competitive Play.

Who failed at logic first?

That has nothing to do with the fact that your argument is literally reducto ad absurdum. You can try to point fingers at others for their issues (which their certainly are), but your point isn't any better.

And to be clear, I'm not even really a fan of the banning of Eldar from competitive play, I just think if your goal is to troll these threads (absurd as they are) instead of providing constructive criticism, you should probably go do something else.

 Pyeatt wrote:
It's an article titled Ban Eldar from All Competitive Play.

Who failed at logic first?

Just because you disagree with it, doesn't mean there is no logic.

Same string of logic. Maybe all other races except eldar shoUld be banned from competitive play. Everyone elseems is doomed to playing bad video games like grand theft auto

 Pyeatt wrote:
Same string of logic. Maybe all other raves except eldar shoUld be banned from competitive play. Everyone elseems is doomed to playing bad video games like grand theft auto

No matter how many times you say this, I'm going to keep saying the same thing; your argument is reducto. ad. absurdbum. It fails to take into account any part of the reason this thread came into existence. It's the same thing as saying "why don't we just burn all of the models into plastic goo?" It makes no argument whatsoever other than to finger-wave away any points without consideration of information being presented.

Poly Ranger...

Is there any chance that you can fix the title so that it reads "Competitive Play"? It hurts my eyes seeing it every time it comes up on the list of threads >.<

I agree very strongly with Talys!

 Rippy wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
We should also ban Space Marines, Tau, all Chaos, Imperial Guard, Necrons, Orks, and anyone else I missed

I disagree, their codices are not terrible overpowered like the new Eldar one.

Necrons are still more OP than Eldar, So are Grey Knights. And last I checked Space Marines still have Centurions and grav guns, and ATSKNF.

Tau and Eldar are about equal in power level and are probably just behind Space Marines and their variant flavors.

But if you want to just fix and balance the game, use the old 3rd. Ed. rulebook, it had all the armies nicely balanced and included in the main rulebook.

yellowfever wrote:
The only thing I've always disliked is any army that can expand itself past the agreed point limit. Say we playing 2000 points. Daemons go first and spawn 200 extra points worth.

Now it's my turn and I got my 2000 points against your 2200 points. It may get worse or maybe I'll kill more/ you won't spawn as much. But the point is the army can break the agreed point limit. Or stick around better.

This is a problem in every single 40k game.

After the first player's turn 1, the first player has more points on the board than the second player. Because Daemons lack ranged firepower, the points totals are 2200 to 2000, instead of 2000 to 1800 (or much, much less depending on the army).

So this is exactly the same thing, except in the case of the Daemon's opponent, they still have all the rocks, papers and scissors. Against Tau (or now Eldar), the second player is missing a big chunk of his force.

Same thing.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
We should also ban Space Marines, Tau, all Chaos, Imperial Guard, Necrons, Orks, and anyone else I missed

I disagree, their codices are not terrible overpowered like the new Eldar one.

Necrons are still more OP than Eldar, So are Grey Knights. And last I checked Space Marines still have Centurions and grav guns, and ATSKNF.

Tau and Eldar are about equal in power level and are probably just behind Space Marines and their variant flavors.

O_o Grey Knights more OP than Eldar? I think you're the only one who holds that opinion, and tournament results certainly don't reflect that. Likewise for Tau, who aren't ranking anything near Eldar in tournament rankings in 7E.

But if you want to just fix and balance the game, use the old 3rd. Ed. rulebook, it had all the armies nicely balanced and included in the main rulebook.

Yeah no. AV14 Wave Serpents and War Walkers. Carnifexes with 5+ armor saves. Heavy 3 Starcannons, like 6pt Plasma Guns, etc. That list was awful.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
But if you want to just fix and balance the game, use the old 3rd. Ed. rulebook, it had all the armies nicely balanced and included in the main rulebook.

I would agree to the 3E Rulebook lists being a fair starting point.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
We should also ban Space Marines, Tau, all Chaos, Imperial Guard, Necrons, Orks, and anyone else I missed

I disagree, their codices are not terrible overpowered like the new Eldar one.

Necrons are still more OP than Eldar, So are Grey Knights. And last I checked Space Marines still have Centurions and grav guns, and ATSKNF.

Tau and Eldar are about equal in power level and are probably just behind Space Marines and their variant flavors.

O_o Grey Knights more OP than Eldar? I think you're the only one who holds that opinion, and tournament results certainly don't reflect that. Likewise for Tau, who aren't ranking anything near Eldar in tournament rankings in 7E.

But if you want to just fix and balance the game, use the old 3rd. Ed. rulebook, it had all the armies nicely balanced and included in the main rulebook.

Yeah no. AV14 Wave Serpents and War Walkers. Carnifexes with 5+ armor saves. Heavy 3 Starcannons, like 6pt Plasma Guns, etc. That list was awful.

AV 14 on the front only for War Walkers, and 14/14/10 for Serpents. That works very well to 'represent' a powerful force field IMHO rather then the current or even last edition Serpent Shield. I would think most people would rather the Serpent have that AV then the Shield. And Starcannons were just listed as plasma cannons in that old list. 6pt Plasma Guns was for BS3 IG, and let's face it. Unlike a Marine, you roll a one and it's pretty much dead guardsmen. So it was more then fair in my book. As far as Fexes go. 5+ may be a tad to low, but back then it's high toughness value and wounds kept it upright nicely. Plus, you couldn't 'shoot it' until you got rid of all the gaunts and stuff in front of it, as the rule for targeting monstrous creatures didn't come until later IIRC.

 bigyounk wrote:
I'll one up all of you. I stopped playing GW games over a year ago and it is glorious. Now I look at people playing 40K & WHFB at my FLGS and snicker as they are still drinking the kool-aid. GW games are terrible and pretty much always have been. There are numerous other choices now and one and all they are superior to GW rules and gameplay. The only edge GW has is in its models and variety of paint. These 2 areas are being eaten away as well, numerous companies produce figs as good as GW's now but not on their scale and other paints are superior in quality if not quantity.

My 2 cents to everyone is ditch your GW products while people are still dumb enough to buy your old armies and evolve as a gamer to better systems.

Have a good day all, I am.

Yeah we got a large and growing contingent of players who play other wargames at our FLGS. 40k is going out of style for good reason I must say. Oh well. I guess if GW dies or is bought out by someone I can hope to continue my 40k armies. Not that I invested much since I use so much proxies models other models because its too expensive.e

I don't really post a lot, but this thread seemd important to me, as an eldar player.

I only play with friends at home, never in any FLGS (because we dont have one primarily)
But i agree with the people saying banning eldar is punishing eldar players for something GW has done wrong.

Because i too think this is overpowered...my regular opponents include an ork and an IG player, i just don't see them winning if i was to build a power list.
i will try to purposely make a list which will be on par with there level, and fluffy (i play biel-tan, so i am actually dissapointed with has come out for the codex...again no Swordwind rules!)

Me leveling my army so it is less powerfull then it could be, for me, says that GW has REALLY dropped the ball on this one!
But that doesnt make it right to ban/punish eldar players, because again: it is not their choiche!

A boycot could work, but i dont really see a lot of players doing this in numbers that would hurt GW, so this is not an option either.

The only thing i think could work, is send mails/letters/homing pigeons with letters to their customer service, complaining about the broken rules.
If they get LOADS of complaints about the rules, they might do something about this.
Another thing to do is to find out who are in the board of directors, and sending them emails to their linkedin accounts for example.

But that means that all of you should not only mail them, but also ask other players in your group to mail them.

I for one have sent a letter to the customer service.

Might have to dig my elder out now that its going to irritate people to play them.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Might have to dig my elder out now that its going to irritate people to play them.

And either you actually mean that, in which case it is a dick move for the people you play against. Or more likely you are being the bug guy on the internet trying to get a rise out of people.

Out of curiosity, how is taking your frustration at the Eldar Codex out on the people who play Eldar going to send a message to GW as opposed to sending a message to the Eldar players? And what is that message? "Oh, you can't use the army you bought and built and painted and you may have been playing since Rogue Trader completely independent of any friendly-play list you might build, we're going to blanket say 'no, we won't play with you anymore' because we don't like the new rules GW gave you"? "You have pointy-eared models, you must be a munchkin"? "You could potentially have a vastly stronger list than I do, so I'm going to take my ball and go home"?

Doesn't sound like "we don't like Eldar" to me. There's a person on the other side of the table, try talking to him. Or her.

So OP and his... crew(?), would actually turn down a game against anyone with an Eldar army?

I'll keep Rule #1 in mind and just say I find that incredibly narrow minded.

I've had the core of my Eldar Aspect army for about 23 years. The new rules I've seen leaked seem in keeping with the lore/background etc. Especially Warp Spiders, which are by far my favourite Eldar unit. Should I shelve them because it might make someone throw a tantrum?!*

*I've not actually played 40k for about two years, and haven't touched my Eldar in about ooooh 15.

Edit - AnomanderRake says it far better

 monders wrote:
Edit - AnomanderRake says it far better

(Personal experience. Had a big metal Daemonhunters army back in the day and the moment I get playable rules and plastic models my 'f'lgs declares a fatwah on GK players. I don't play there anymore.)

 Quickjager wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Might have to dig my elder out now that its going to irritate people to play them.

And either you actually mean that, in which case it is a dick move for the people you play against. Or more likely you are being the bug guy on the internet trying to get a rise out of people.

Nah, I'm just a dick.

Well, noone's forcing you to spam the most broken stuff you have in casual games.

However, you must acknowledge that the new eldar dex does have many options of breaking a game. That's why people are discussing limitations to eldar players in competitive games. See, it's a funny situation where you're supposed to take the best you can to win games vs other people who take the best they can (competitive) but the new 7-th eldar dex is so badly ballanced that there's basically no use trying to compete with them with armies that are not eldar + allies like dark eldar (raiders, wwp) or guys that can get you 1-st turn more reliably.

 monders wrote:
*I've not actually played 40k for about two years, and haven't touched my Eldar in about ooooh 15.

I will admit I found this post kind of funny. I feel like one day in the future we're all just going to be discussing how we would do things if we theoretically still played 40k but we don't anymore.

Of course there is someone on the otherside of the table. They themselves are either going to be amiable or annoying, most of the time amiable. The amiable people will not play Eldar simply because they realize its a top-tier army in a FLGS that isn't competitive (this situation has already happened). Or they will bring the tourney comp everytime (which has also happened) until they realize no one can consistently beat them, in my case that person actually stopped coming, which was weird because he simply could have stepped his army down a notch.

But he didn't and if GW gave a feth, they would realize having an equally viable army range would SELL, but over the course of this edition we've seen internal balance flip-flopping (even if it started to becme balanced externally pre-cron) in such a way I am ready to toss my hat in with the people saying GW is actually intentionally malicious to balance so they can sell models.

Case in point Ork Bikers and Kan walls, Space Wolf Long Fangs and Grey Hunters, PAGK, pretty much most DE, Blood Angels... I can't think of anything (Martel I assume you can tell me).

 Quickjager wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Might have to dig my elder out now that its going to irritate people to play them.

And either you actually mean that, in which case it is a dick move for the people you play against. Or more likely you are being the bug guy on the internet trying to get a rise out of people.

This whole thread is trying to do that and its still a silly thought and a complete overreaction. Lets alienate a chunk of the community because we don't like there book even though its not their fault and they may not even be playing with these so called "OP" units. The whole idea of this thread screams "cater the game to what I want and screw everyone else."

 koooaei wrote:
Well, noone's forcing you to spam the most broken stuff you have in casual games.

However, you must acknowledge that the new eldar dex does have many options of breaking a game. That's why people are discussing limitations to eldar players in competitive games. See, it's a funny situation where you're supposed to take the best you can to win games vs other people who take the best they can (competitive) but the new 7-th eldar dex is so badly ballanced that there's basically no use trying to compete with them with armies that are not eldar + allies like dark eldar (raiders, wwp) or guys that can get you 1-st turn more reliably.

Me? I don't have to acknowledge anything other than people getting in a tizzy over something very minor. Its only a game, after all.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Well, noone's forcing you to spam the most broken stuff you have in casual games.

However, you must acknowledge that the new eldar dex does have many options of breaking a game. That's why people are discussing limitations to eldar players in competitive games. See, it's a funny situation where you're supposed to take the best you can to win games vs other people who take the best they can (competitive) but the new 7-th eldar dex is so badly ballanced that there's basically no use trying to compete with them with armies that are not eldar + allies like dark eldar (raiders, wwp) or guys that can get you 1-st turn more reliably.

Me? I don't have to acknowledge anything other than people getting in a tizzy over something very minor. Its only a game, after all.

Oh, was responding to Monders.

And to you - yep, it's just a game. That's why we simply homerule stuff to make it enjoyable for everyone. Competitive tourneys are not like this, however. And this is a thread about eldar&competitive play.

The super serious world of competitive play? Man up and deal with it then. Bring yr A game or go home! That's what it all about, throwing down and winning!

 Quickjager wrote:
Of course there is someone on the otherside of the table. They themselves are either going to be amiable or annoying, most of the time amiable. The amiable people will not play Eldar simply because they realize its a top-tier army in a FLGS that isn't competitive (this situation has already happened). Or they will bring the tourney comp everytime (which has also happened) until they realize no one can consistently beat them, in my case that person actually stopped coming, which was weird because he simply could have stepped his army down a notch.

But he didn't and if GW gave a feth, they would realize having an equally viable army range would SELL, but over the course of this edition we've seen internal balance flip-flopping (even if it started to becme balanced externally pre-cron) in such a way I am ready to toss my hat in with the people saying GW is actually intentionally malicious to balance so they can sell models.

Case in point Ork Bikers and Kan walls, Space Wolf Long Fangs and Grey Hunters, PAGK, pretty much most DE, Blood Angels... I can't think of anything (Martel I assume you can tell me).

Let me try and follow your logic...someone who plays a Codex has no options but to either munchkin it up all the way to the ceiling and play the most tournament-competitive list possible...or not play the army? No middle ground? It's impossible to use the Eldar Codex and be a decent person?

(In case rhe subtlety isn't getting through this is exactly the kind of narrow-minded judgemental attitude I'm trying to point out the absurdity (and rudeness) of.)

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Let me try and follow your logic...someone who plays a Codex has no options but to either munchkin it up all the way to the ceiling and play the most tournament-competitive list possible...or not play the army? No middle ground? It's impossible to use the Eldar Codex and be a decent person?

(In case rhe subtlety isn't getting through this is exactly the kind of narrow-minded judgemental attitude I'm trying to point out the absurdity (and rudeness) of.)

This is why I can't stand 40k anymore. GW pisses me off, for obvious reasons, but I think the community is far, far worse. It's just full of people like this.

Not sure if it was clear or not but I was talking about Quickjager and agreeing with your point.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Let me try and follow your logic...someone who plays a Codex has no options but to either munchkin it up all the way to the ceiling and play the most tournament-competitive list possible...or not play the army? No middle ground? It's impossible to use the Eldar Codex and be a decent person?

(In case rhe subtlety isn't getting through this is exactly the kind of narrow-minded judgemental attitude I'm trying to point out the absurdity (and rudeness) of.)

This is why I can't stand 40k anymore. GW pisses me off, for obvious reasons, but I think the community is far, far worse. It's just full of people like this.

The thing people are overlooking in this debate is how many mediocre players there are. Bring me 10 competitive Eldar lists and my CSM will win 7 times based on knowing the actual rules and doing the best with what they have.

I don't put much stock in tournaments but really wonder why anyone would be in favor of any kind of restrictions. What does this actually prove except that people can afford the cost of admission?

Obviously boycott of players is not realistic, the thread is hilarious though, a pinnacle of 40k internet drama. But it's also somehow justified (drama not the idea to ban players) given that blatantly OP codex got more OP, a new level of GW being a dick. Shame as the latest releases were looking really good and now seem a bit spoiled.


What could work is eldar players not buying the book but Ive already seen a few who 'love it' so not really. On the other hand I dont care and wouldnt even if I played. It's just like impossible mode in some pc game, heaps of fun.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 monders wrote:
*I've not actually played 40k for about two years, and haven't touched my Eldar in about ooooh 15.

I will admit I found this post kind of funny. I feel like one day in the future we're all just going to be discussing how we would do things if we theoretically still played 40k but we don't anymore.

People that actually play will be scorned and laughed at.

I really was hoping to get my Eldar up and running again with the last book. But then they brought in a new edition, and I though "I've not even finished reading THIS set of rules yet!" then when I was ready to get the 7th rules mini book, they drop another Eldar codex.

SHEEEESH.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Let me try and follow your logic...someone who plays a Codex has no options but to either munchkin it up all the way to the ceiling and play the most tournament-competitive list possible...or not play the army? No middle ground? It's impossible to use the Eldar Codex and be a decent person?

(In case rhe subtlety isn't getting through this is exactly the kind of narrow-minded judgemental attitude I'm trying to point out the absurdity (and rudeness) of.)

This is why I can't stand 40k anymore. GW pisses me off, for obvious reasons, but I think the community is far, far worse. It's just full of people like this.

The thing people are overlooking in this debate is how many mediocre players there are. Bring me 10 competitive Eldar lists and my CSM will win 7 times based on knowing the actual rules and doing the best with what they have.

I don't put much stock in tournaments but really wonder why anyone would be in favor of any kind of restrictions. What does this actually prove except that people can afford the cost of admission?

It's not really being overlooked, it's just that 40k isn't a tactically deep game. Too much is based off of a single dice roll, which has an equal chance of any number coming up (compared to a 2d6, where you get a nice bell curve).
Dice means anything can happen, of course, but saying you're army has a 70:30 advantage over Eldar or Necrons because of your player skill is dubious at best as a claim.

1) You are assuming anyone playing a competitive eldar list is mediocre.
2) You are assuming you are an excellent player, without evidence supporting this.
3) You are assuming your skill is so large that you can overcome an inherent disadvantage in your codex to the point where you actually gain a significant advantage in the matchup.
4) You are assuming your skill is somehow relevant to a larger discussion.

People are in favor of restrictions in this game, and any tournament game, because it adds a semblance of balance back to a game that otherwise doesn't function. Many fighting games do the same thing, to stop the game being Akuma versus Akuma (not saying he was banned, just an example). People play in tournaments, in a more balanced setting, to prove who is the better player and to play against new people who they otherwise may never have gotten to play against.

In 40k, tournaments don't add much because different tournaments have different restrictions, though some of them are being widely regarded as successful (though the eldar codex does stomp on some of those rulings). In more competitive games, (WMH, SSB, Magic) being a competitive gamer means you can make statements like yours and be taken seriously. I may not agree with M2K on everything (I don't even like him personally), but when he says a character is overpowered, everyone listens.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
The super serious world of competitive play? Man up and deal with it then. Bring yr A game or go home! That's what it all about, throwing down and winning!

And the point, which you seem to be missing, is that the Eldar book is broken to the point where nobody else "bringing their A game" with any other faction can stand a chance against an optimized Eldar list.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
The super serious world of competitive play? Man up and deal with it then. Bring yr A game or go home! That's what it all about, throwing down and winning!

And the point, which you seem to be missing, is that the Eldar book is broken to the point where nobody else "bringing their A game" with any other faction can stand a chance against an optimized Eldar list.

And this has been amply demonstrated across several large, high-level events to be more than a statistical fluke, accounting for strength of player? I don't think so. It's just more Chicken Little crying that the sky is falling.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
The super serious world of competitive play? Man up and deal with it then. Bring yr A game or go home! That's what it all about, throwing down and winning!

And the point, which you seem to be missing, is that the Eldar book is broken to the point where nobody else "bringing their A game" with any other faction can stand a chance against an optimized Eldar list.

And this has been amply demonstrated across several large, high-level events to be more than a statistical fluke, accounting for strength of player? I don't think so. It's just more Chicken Little crying that the sky is falling.

Well, considering the book has yet to release, it would be hard to find any sort of data on it.

Tournaments are not exactly the best source of data for 40k. They are comped heavily, with many restrictions that may not apply to your local meta. The lack of ranged D is something common, for now, at tournaments, but the new eldar codex has quite a lot of it. It's going to be hard to predict how TO's will react to this.



That being said, Eldar were winning the most with their old codex when compared to other armies. There hasn't been a lot of time since the necrons released, though it wouldn't surprise me to learn they were slightly beating the eldar with their formations.
The new eldar codex is much stronger then the old one outside of waveserpents.

The council is stronger, farseers are much better, nearly all aspect warriors are improved (why fire dragons?), scatter bikers are a thing now, wraithguard, hawks, and dragons destroy tanks...it's hard to argue the codex got weaker.
So if it was the strongest dex, arguably, before, and it got significantly better....it's easy to see why people are upset about this.
It's not like 40k has upped the power level. The necrons are very good with formations, but the skitarri aren't crazy powerful by any stretch.

At least if I go into 40k again, my Biel-Tan army is going to be amazing.

 Talys wrote:
Poly Ranger...

Is there any chance that you can fix the title so that it reads "Competitive Play"? It hurts my eyes seeing it every time it comes up on the list of threads >.<

It's not my thread!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Accolade wrote:
I agree very strongly with Talys!

Really - it's not me! :-p

I think a great alternative to this thread is the rage quit thread. I'd rather not ban Eldar from comp play, as the players who use it will just go to another army and we will see 4 flyrants lists, draigo stars, or some other cheesy unit. Comp players jump to whatever is the best, so banning one isn't the solution.

You can do what I am doing. Just stop playing 40k. Why try to fix a game that continually breaks itself?

I DONT think Eldar should be banned as it is unfair on Eldar players! I think their rules should be moderated however.

The only threads I've made concerning it are: -should I email GW and would it have effect? and -what would you do against 3 knights plus 25 jetbikes?
I have disagreed with banning Eldar players and I've said I'm not going to rage quit. Just because stopcallingmechief had a psyc-out episdoe at me (and to a lesser extent Jimsolo) saying I am unwilling to listen to others opinions, doesn't mean it's true as all my posts over the past few days have shown - having rational and respectful discussions with both sides who don't just use insults as a matter of course. So please don't get the impression that I advocate the most extreme options (although I completely understand why people would advocate such options).

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Talys wrote:
Poly Ranger...

Is there any chance that you can fix the title so that it reads "Competitive Play"? It hurts my eyes seeing it every time it comes up on the list of threads >.<

It's not my thread!

Sorry

I think you were just the last poster. Emperor be blessed, someone fixed it

Haha, no worries.

cm32 wrote:
I think a great alternative to this thread is the rage quit thread.

This.

GW doesn't care and won't change without a massive drop in sales, and they've found that raising the bar spurs sales. Expecting them to change their proven successful business practices is insanity.

If you can't handle the way that GW does business, stop doing business with them, and just get out.

Poly Ranger wrote:
I DONT think Eldar should be banned as it is unfair on Eldar players! I think their rules should be moderated however.

The only threads I've made concerning it are: -should I email GW and would it have effect? and -what would you do against 3 knights plus 25 jetbikes?
I have disagreed with banning Eldar players and I've said I'm not going to rage quit. Just because stopcallingmechief had a psyc-out episdoe at me (and to a lesser extent Jimsolo) saying I am unwilling to listen to others opinions, doesn't mean it's true as all my posts over the past few days have shown - having rational and respectful discussions with both sides who don't just use insults as a matter of course. So please don't get the impression that I advocate the most extreme options (although I completely understand why people would advocate such options).

THANK you. Nice to know someone still understands that people don't become not people the instant they pull a pointy-eared model out of their figure case.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
The super serious world of competitive play? Man up and deal with it then. Bring yr A game or go home! That's what it all about, throwing down and winning!

And the point, which you seem to be missing, is that the Eldar book is broken to the point where nobody else "bringing their A game" with any other faction can stand a chance against an optimized Eldar list.

And this has been amply demonstrated across several large, high-level events to be more than a statistical fluke, accounting for strength of player? I don't think so. It's just more Chicken Little crying that the sky is falling.

It's called deductive logic based on information provided by people that have seen and posted pics from the Eldar codex via the internet.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I DONT think Eldar should be banned as it is unfair on Eldar players! I think their rules should be moderated however.

The only threads I've made concerning it are: -should I email GW and would it have effect? and -what would you do against 3 knights plus 25 jetbikes?
I have disagreed with banning Eldar players and I've said I'm not going to rage quit. Just because stopcallingmechief had a psyc-out episdoe at me (and to a lesser extent Jimsolo) saying I am unwilling to listen to others opinions, doesn't mean it's true as all my posts over the past few days have shown - having rational and respectful discussions with both sides who don't just use insults as a matter of course. So please don't get the impression that I advocate the most extreme options (although I completely understand why people would advocate such options).

THANK you. Nice to know someone still understands that people don't become not people the instant they pull a pointy-eared model out of their figure case.

Very true. However on the flip side of the coin, there are also people who don't understand those who think they won't have fun against even slightly competitive Eldar lists.
I honestly reckon that if all the reliable rumours are true that Eldar will be incredibly broken, but that won't be the eldar player bases fault. So we need to find a solution. Some believe quitting is a solution, and I have to respect them for that view because I'm pretty close myself with a lot of the gak GW do (but ebay has saved me). There are others like TheNewBlood who advocate that eldar players must try to be sporsmenlike and try to shy away from the uber cheese (my words), which again, I respect. The issue with this is for pick up games and eldar players who refuse to. There are those who believe the major TO's will moderate it themselves. Yet others believe we will be able to affect GW as a customer base (hence my asking about emailing them). And there are some who cannot actually see the extent of the brokenness yet. I think this last point is as extreme as quitting or banning eldar players, as it is just outright denial - and if these players 'claim' that it's not broken then they aren't going to be sportsmenlike about it as TheNewBlood suggests. It's like that infamous dakka wave serpent apologist who we all know (name begins with an M ;-)), who always went on any thread that had even the smallest significance to the WS to then proceed to derail it and preach about how overcosted and ineffective they were... imagine what he's going to be like with these jetbikes!

The Eldar were always a little overpowered, especially for the mid-experience curve. That is, they have had great tools to allow mediocre players to overperform.

Unlike, for example, space Marines, they have never really had the best tools for veteran and star players to really shine. In our local scene. Eldar players typically win 85% of the games versus 85% of the players, not including Decurion, a relatively new thing that also lets players overperform. The problem is, these same Eldar players also lose 85% of the games against the other 15% of players who know what they're doing and understand Eldar limitations.

I'm not trying to defend the undercosting or availability of 36" weapons to troops; I'm just saying that until experienced players actually play and adjust to the new codex, whether the changes are in fact as awesome as they seem remains to be seen.

I'm also not a bog fan of Necron and Eldar being easier to play than other factions, even before this codex, though it has the side benefit of allowing me to recommend the faction to someone who is starting out.

I think the real issue here is not so much the army itself (to me Elderp have always been a pain) but more with the power cheese units. I love an uphill battle against eldar especially with my orks but the real problem is that this codex can produce a list that certain armies cannot beat regardless of their list. I'd still play Elderp but only certain lists. No reason to be extreme about it. And on another note any (sane) tournament organizer would ban certain lists like this. If I am not mistaken every list has to be approved before the competition. Only a pants on head stupid organizer would allow that stuff in. There is a distinct difference between a list like this where it is strong because the units are too powerful or where it is strong but the units are expensive as well(Grey Knights) The fact is that 100+ S6 shots in under 1000 points is insane to name one example.

On a very different note the wraithlords or whatever the big cheese is can be ignored (aside from bike spam). Some poeple can't help themselves from just firing random shots into it in hopes of getting a few wounds. Just focus your shots elsewhere. A lone wraithknight or lord or a handfull of wraithguard on an otherwise empty table is easy to ignore and can only do so much damage a turn. Also for competitive play just tweak the lists a little to be more anti T4 to deal with bikes. (better off just ignoring T8 monsters unless you like bringing Grav guns)

That is just my two cents. Don't refuse outright but ask your opponent if they try to bring "that list". Odds are if they don't want to adjust their list even a little then i wasn't going to be a fun or good game regardless of what they brought and you will be several hours richer for your trouble.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also why are they getting another damn codex?!?! How exactly is that fair, feth fair how is that even reasonable when there are crap codexes still out there: Tyranids, CSM, SoB

I have sympathy for the long time Eldar Players. It is no fun to be labeled a bastard solely on army choice. I experienced this back in 3rd because I play Blood Angels, Even though I was never accused of being one of the WAAC guys, I still got to hear the rants about all of the crimes committed by my fellow BA players with a nice little "But your not like that" while I played my games. The turning point for me was when the whole store 12+ guys worked themselves into a frenzy and neutered my codex into nothing for the store's house rules going forward. Fortunately the "Bad" BA player wasn't there otherwise he might have gotten lynched. I stopped playing them for several years after that.

I understand both sides here. This doesn't have anything to do with being on the internet or Dakka, it is simply human nature to fear/hate what is perceived as unfair and to lash out at it. It doesn't help when the makers don't give a crap, and you have a bunch of cheesedicks stirring the pot with GTFO if you don't like it. The 40k community suffers when this stuff happens and invariably gets smaller and meaner.

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:
I think the real issue here is not so much the army itself (to me Elderp have always been a pain) but more with the power cheese units. I love an uphill battle against eldar especially with my orks but the real problem is that this codex can produce a list that certain armies cannot beat regardless of their list.

This actually conflates two separate issues, because one problem with 40k is that some codices are just plain too weak. I would definitely put Orks and Tyranids -- absent their ONE great, spammable model -- there.

There are factions that have some neat tricks, but overall just don't have the depth and tools.

Then again, as I've said for decades now, anyone looking for "balance" in the normal sense of the word out of 40k factions will be sorely disappointed, hehehe. Live with it, fix it yourself, play around it, or of course, look for something else to do... Just don't expect that there will ever be a set of nearly balanced factions out of 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I have sympathy for the long time Eldar Players. It is no fun to be labeled a bastard solely on army choice. I experienced this back in 3rd because I play Blood Angels, Even though I was never accused of being one of the WAAC guys, I still got to hear the rants about all of the crimes committed by my fellow BA players with a nice little "But your not like that" while I played my games. The turning point for me was when the whole store 12+ guys worked themselves into a frenzy and neutered my codex into nothing for the store's house rules going forward. Fortunately the "Bad" BA player wasn't there otherwise he might have gotten lynched. I stopped playing them for several years after that.

I understand both sides here. This doesn't have anything to do with being on the internet or Dakka, it is simply human nature to fear/hate what is perceived as unfair and to lash out at it. It doesn't help when the makers don't give a crap, and you have a bunch of cheesedicks stirring the pot with GTFO if you don't like it. The 40k community suffers when this stuff happens and invariably gets smaller and meaner.

I don't understand fear or hate at all. It's just a game -- figure it out with the other guy, or don't play, right? If you know you can't win, there is no point in playing, and the other player should recognize this too (and try to do something about it). Besides, fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. And hate leads to suffering. ;D

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I have sympathy for the long time Eldar Players. It is no fun to be labeled a bastard solely on army choice.

One of my friends has played a fluffy Iyanden, Saim-Hann alliance for years. He has a huge collection of painted models. Whenever the new codex comes up in a conversation, he stops smiling.

We all know that he is very fluffy and is a cool guy, but he is still going to get gak from any local competition or new player.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
The super serious world of competitive play? Man up and deal with it then. Bring yr A game or go home! That's what it all about, throwing down and winning!

And the point, which you seem to be missing, is that the Eldar book is broken to the point where nobody else "bringing their A game" with any other faction can stand a chance against an optimized Eldar list.

And this has been amply demonstrated across several large, high-level events to be more than a statistical fluke, accounting for strength of player? I don't think so. It's just more Chicken Little crying that the sky is falling.

And so it will go from

"Nothing has been proved - wait till the Codex arrives, ignore all the pics of the actuall rules, its all fine, La la I am not looking at the pics, they are not real, not listening" to

"Wait you have not played it" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then

"Well we just need time to adjust" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

to

"have to wait for the FAQs" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then after a couple of years of this............

- "oh its nearly time for a new codex so we shouldn't change it" - especially whilst I keep wining games

That's what happened with Serpents - as the Cylons say - "its happened before and it will happen before"

The problem is all the cognitive dissonance going on here. The whole current freakout can be summed up as follows:

"There's no way I can possibly have fun against Eldar, math and a handful of hypothetical scenarios with literally no empirical evidence prove that beyond all shadow of a doubt. So let's make sure that Eldar players can't have fun unless they play in a way that I personally decide is fun for me. I'm not going to actually test the theory though because I'm scared I might lose a game badly, I'm just going to force hamstring them so they might lose badly instead. And if I can't force them then I'm just going to shut them out of the game altogether so that they can't have fun in a way that may just make my fun a little less."

Seriously people, you can't take the high road about how GW is killing your fun and then turn around and try to kill Eldar player's fun based off of, and I can't stress this enough, NO EVIDENCE that all your worst fears are going to come to pass.

And before you all jump up and down, please don't post theoretical situations filled with hyperbolic hypotheticals (say that 10 times fast). Because at some point theory becomes practice and that's when reality takes over. Until then this whole thread and the many like it are so much wasted keystrokes.

confoo22 wrote:
The problem is all the cognitive dissonance going on here. The whole current freakout can be summed up as follows:

"There's no way I can possibly have fun against Eldar, math and a handful of hypothetical scenarios with literally no empirical evidence prove that beyond all shadow of a doubt. So let's make sure that Eldar players can't have fun unless they play in a way that I personally decide is fun for me. I'm not going to actually test the theory though because I'm scared I might lose a game badly, I'm just going to force hamstring them so they might lose badly instead. And if I can't force them then I'm just going to shut them out of the game altogether so that they can't have fun in a way that may just make my fun a little less."

Seriously people, you can't take the high road about how GW is killing your fun and then turn around and try to kill Eldar player's fun based off of, and I can't stress this enough, NO EVIDENCE that all your worst fears are going to come to pass.

And before you all jump up and down, please don't post theoretical situations filled with hyperbolic hypotheticals (say that 10 times fast). Because at some point theory becomes practice and that's when reality takes over. Until then this whole thread and the many like it are so much wasted keystrokes.

Empirical evidence?
Eldar were already the strongest dex around and they just got massive buffs. Seems pretty clear cut.

 MWHistorian wrote:

confoo22 wrote:
The problem is all the cognitive dissonance going on here. The whole current freakout can be summed up as follows:

"There's no way I can possibly have fun against Eldar, math and a handful of hypothetical scenarios with literally no empirical evidence prove that beyond all shadow of a doubt. So let's make sure that Eldar players can't have fun unless they play in a way that I personally decide is fun for me. I'm not going to actually test the theory though because I'm scared I might lose a game badly, I'm just going to force hamstring them so they might lose badly instead. And if I can't force them then I'm just going to shut them out of the game altogether so that they can't have fun in a way that may just make my fun a little less."

Seriously people, you can't take the high road about how GW is killing your fun and then turn around and try to kill Eldar player's fun based off of, and I can't stress this enough, NO EVIDENCE that all your worst fears are going to come to pass.

And before you all jump up and down, please don't post theoretical situations filled with hyperbolic hypotheticals (say that 10 times fast). Because at some point theory becomes practice and that's when reality takes over. Until then this whole thread and the many like it are so much wasted keystrokes.

Empirical evidence?
Eldar were already the strongest dex around and they just got massive buffs. Seems pretty clear cut.

Remember:

"Nothing has been proved - wait till the Codex arrives, ignore all the pics of the actuall rules, its all fine, La la I am not looking at the pics, they are not real, not listening"

keep reciting it and ignore the evidence - you know it makes no sense...............

@MWHistorian -- even with invisible centstars needed, the tournament scene may disagree with you that Eldar are the most powerful faction. They don't dominate anything, much less consistently.

Just because they are easier to play doesn't make theme the mist powerful.

 MWHistorian wrote:

confoo22 wrote:
The problem is all the cognitive dissonance going on here. The whole current freakout can be summed up as follows:

"There's no way I can possibly have fun against Eldar, math and a handful of hypothetical scenarios with literally no empirical evidence prove that beyond all shadow of a doubt. So let's make sure that Eldar players can't have fun unless they play in a way that I personally decide is fun for me. I'm not going to actually test the theory though because I'm scared I might lose a game badly, I'm just going to force hamstring them so they might lose badly instead. And if I can't force them then I'm just going to shut them out of the game altogether so that they can't have fun in a way that may just make my fun a little less."

Seriously people, you can't take the high road about how GW is killing your fun and then turn around and try to kill Eldar player's fun based off of, and I can't stress this enough, NO EVIDENCE that all your worst fears are going to come to pass.

And before you all jump up and down, please don't post theoretical situations filled with hyperbolic hypotheticals (say that 10 times fast). Because at some point theory becomes practice and that's when reality takes over. Until then this whole thread and the many like it are so much wasted keystrokes.

Empirical evidence?
Eldar were already the strongest dex around and they just got massive buffs. Seems pretty clear cut.

Eldar haven't been topping tourneys for a while, when was the last time they were in 1st? The last few have been Nids (who are seen as a mid to low tier codex but still perform well, albeit with a monobuild), Scout Marines, Daemons, etc.

Eldar are good, and Wave Serpents are frelling dumb for what they are. But people *gasp* learned to deal with them, and the changing game made them not as terrifying as they were previously. The new codex is a magnitude stronger than the current 6th ed one, but that doesn't mean that the second it comes out it's going to win everything. And even if it does, that doesn't mean it will continue to do so forever.

 Talys wrote:
The Eldar were always a little overpowered, especially for the mid-experience curve. That is, they have had great tools to allow mediocre players to overperform.

Unlike, for example, space Marines, they have never really had the best tools for veteran and star players to really shine. In our local scene. Eldar players typically win 85% of the games versus 85% of the players, not including Decurion, a relatively new thing that also lets players overperform. The problem is, these same Eldar players also lose 85% of the games against the other 15% of players who know what they're doing and understand Eldar limitations.

I'm not trying to defend the undercosting or availability of 36" weapons to troops; I'm just saying that until experienced players actually play and adjust to the new codex, whether the changes are in fact as awesome as they seem remains to be seen.

I'm also not a bog fan of Necron and Eldar being easier to play than other factions, even before this codex, though it has the side benefit of allowing me to recommend the faction to someone who is starting out.

Emphasis mine... Now, admittedly, I didn't start playing 40k until the 3rd edition re-boot, but throughout all these years I've seen & had to try to deal with Eldar excesses that included;
1. Starcannon spam.
A 36" range, S6/ap2 Heavy 3 weapon that could be spammed ad nausium across 5-man Guardian Squads, War Walkers, Vypers, Falcons, Wraithlords, Wave Serpents et all... at a time when Marine armies were lucky to get maybe 40-50 models on the table.

Also at this time, certain power weapon toting Exarchs could buy an ability called Sustained Assault. It typically led to near-endlessly chaining attacks until the Exarch in question finally failed to hit.
It was considered perfectly "normal" for this single model to wipe out entire units of 10+ Space Marines, to 30+ Orks/Gaunts, since he also always tended to Guide up on that model as well... and back when all power toys were across the board 'no armour saves allowed.'
I once had a single Assault Squad of 6 dudes suffer a total of 54 hits!

2. Alaitoc Ranger list & Disruption table.
Eldar were the first army in 3rd to gain easy access to 2++ cover saves. They also got super snipers who essentially had ATSKNF, could always re-group and never had to take 'All on Your Own' tests...
Then they got the Ranger Disruption Table which got a roll for each unit of Rangers + Pathfinders in the army:
1. No effect
2. A random enemy unit on the table is taken off & must start the game in reserves instead
3. A random enemy units on the table starts the battle pinned. (unless unit is immune to pinning)
4. An enemy unit on the table chosen by the Eldar player is taken off and starts in reserves
5. An enemy unit chosen by the Eldar player starts the game pinned
6. The Ranger or Pathfinders may shoot one enemy unit chosen by the Eldar player, regardless of line of sight or range before the battle begins.

And if you min/maxed your Rangers/Pathfinders, you could upto 9 times on this table!! I can recall more than once that this table alone would outright win the game for the Eldar player.

3. Biel-Tan Swordwind
Aspects were the best parts of the Eldar infantry in 3rd & early 4th. Now you could take them as Troops. Plus they got take an entire unit of 3-5 DA/Fire Dragon/Banshee/Scorpion Exarchs in any combination as an HQ choice.

4. Ulthwe Seer Congress
Not only did Ulthwe armies get BS4 for the seemingly mandatory 5-man Starcannon platforms for no added cost, but now they could also take a unit of 2-5 Farseers + unlimited Warlocks, at a time when Psychic counters were simply non-existent!
Plus they also got the new 5pts Augment Warlock power which would double the range of all those Mind Wars, Fortunes & Guides that the Farseers were tossing about...
Grey Knights kinda laughed in the end due to being the only army that could invuln save ignoring wargear, but overall, no one else could dent a re-rolled 4++ save unit of 40-50+ models. (of which a 1/3 would be wielding Witchblades/Singing Spears!)

5. Flying Circus & Holofield Fire Prisms
The dirty list of mid to late 4th edition... Avoidancehammer at it's most obnoxious, as the Falcons and/or Prisms would shoot, then duck back behind cover. If you ever did manage to get shots off on them, it took an ungodly amount of firepower to get through the Holofields.
Once the Harlie models became widely available, you then had units which would tear up most anything in combat with high WS & I rending attacks, coupled with an unblockable auto-pass psy power that made it almost impossible to shoot the unit down unless you could get within about 6" or so of them!

6. Serpent Spam.
The only really, really obnoxious bit of the 6th ed book honestly... Massed Wave Serpents toting Scatter Lasers for the Laser-lock rule coupled with the shield's shooting attack. Remove the Scatlas though, and the Serpent wasn't nearly quite as obnoxious.
Wraithknights thus far have really seemed more like a fire magnet that simply tanks damage rather than a super OP unit. (at least, my LoC loves currently smacking the things around!)

7. New Scatlas Jetbikes & massed range Str.D
I still don't think the bikes will quite as bad as what is being made of them right now honestly... they're still horribly vulnerable to any kind of Alpha Strike, plus Barrage weapons like Wyverns, Thunderfire Cannons and their ilk will make a huge mess of larger units of the things.
Massed range Str.D could easily become problematic, especially to those who typically rely on lots of MC's such as Tyranids & Daemons, or heavy armour like IG. But still, if the Wraithcannons are still just 12", they're still stuck being expensive suicide units, while D weapon batteries can be nuked by cheap Deep Strikers or other fast moving units.
Gargantuan Creature Wraithknights however look terrifyingly good for only 295pts base!



So overall, from the perspective of what Eldar used to pull in 3rd ed and early 4th, it actually seems like they're getting fewer cheesy antics overall... Back in 3rd, I never had fun against Eldar. Anything my army could do, Eldar did 100x better. Unless a list was based heavily around Guardians with only a couple 'not Guardian' units, it felt like I never had much of a chance in any game.

The Craftworld codex was the absolute peak of Eldar's total & utter domination of the 40k gaming scene. Nothing, not even the most broken aspects of the vaunted 3.5 Chaos codex could lay a finger on the levels of gouda an Eldar player could pull.
At one point when GW actively led & supported a tournament scene, Eldar during one year in the US had over 90 event wins!! Space Wolves were a distant 2nd with barely over 30 wins...

So sure, let the Eldar have their cheapie-cheap Scatlas Bikes and ranged Str.D weapons. At least they're no longer auto-winning at deployment, or laying down 80 man Seer congresses, or spamming high rate of fire S6/ap2 guns, or blenderising entire units in combat without breaking a sweat, etc...

The ITC results indicate that Eldar consistently make it to top tables, and have won the most top armies in that circuit.

Its not total evidence, but it also disagrees with your assertion. Eldar were a really strong book, as a primary faction and as an allied faction, and many tournaments have reported this.

The new book is a near universal buff, so it would be logical to assume that Eldar will remain one of the top books.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

confoo22 wrote:
The problem is all the cognitive dissonance going on here. The whole current freakout can be summed up as follows:

"There's no way I can possibly have fun against Eldar, math and a handful of hypothetical scenarios with literally no empirical evidence prove that beyond all shadow of a doubt. So let's make sure that Eldar players can't have fun unless they play in a way that I personally decide is fun for me. I'm not going to actually test the theory though because I'm scared I might lose a game badly, I'm just going to force hamstring them so they might lose badly instead. And if I can't force them then I'm just going to shut them out of the game altogether so that they can't have fun in a way that may just make my fun a little less."

Seriously people, you can't take the high road about how GW is killing your fun and then turn around and try to kill Eldar player's fun based off of, and I can't stress this enough, NO EVIDENCE that all your worst fears are going to come to pass.

And before you all jump up and down, please don't post theoretical situations filled with hyperbolic hypotheticals (say that 10 times fast). Because at some point theory becomes practice and that's when reality takes over. Until then this whole thread and the many like it are so much wasted keystrokes.

Empirical evidence?
Eldar were already the strongest dex around and they just got massive buffs. Seems pretty clear cut.

Remember:

"Nothing has been proved - wait till the Codex arrives, ignore all the pics of the actuall rules, its all fine, La la I am not looking at the pics, they are not real, not listening"

keep reciting it and ignore the evidence - you know it makes no sense...............

To MWH Historian, Eldar haven't been "the strongest dex" for a little while now, they've really been sharing that title with a few other dexes for the last year or so.

And to both of you, Pictures of rules and theoretical math are not empirical evidence, for that you need actual scientific method to play out and reality tends to screw with such things. I'm not going to apologize for waiting to actually play a game against Eldar before I come to the conclusion that they must be banished from all tournament tables to satisfy people who's eyes are bugging out about 160 Str 6 shots. Feel free to jump to as many conclusions as you want, I'll wait for actual gameplay evidence, thank you very much. Maybe I'll be singing a different tune after that, but not before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blacksails wrote:
The new book is a near universal buff, so it would be logical to assume that Eldar will remain one of the top books.

Don't believe anyone's disputing that, but being a top book isn't good enough reason to ban them from all competitive play.

No, and I think banning them entirely is also a little rash, but modified certainly. Scatter lasers on bikes being a 1 in 3 option would do wonders, and/or bumping the price to 15ish pts per laser. Things like that would be more sensible. Sort of an unofficial FAQ.

 Blacksails wrote:
No, and I think banning them entirely is also a little rash, but modified certainly. Scatter lasers on bikes being a 1 in 3 option would do wonders, and/or bumping the price to 15ish pts per laser. Things like that would be more sensible. Sort of an unofficial FAQ.

don't think TO's would start messing with points cost, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of them tested the waters with 1 in 3 for bikes. I believe ITC has already announced that they will continue to limit all LoW's to one per army, which is sensible and would put the WK in check.

Frankly, I wouldn't mind if a large tournament scene messed with the points cost. Might pave the way for other projects to try and balance the game. No one will 100% agree on the changes, but we won't get anywhere unless someone starts, and there's no better place than in the hands of competitive players at large tournaments.

But that's a whole different discussion.

Point is the new dex is broken, but banning it entirely is a non-starter.

A general ruling of 'no D weapons on anything but super heavy vehicles and gargantuan creatures' would also silence a lot of the complaints.

Though I still can't see the difference between a squad with strength 10 meltas and strength D guns. They will both kill whatever tank they fire at and then be wiped out in the next turn by return fire. The only thing that this might affect are knights, and those need a good kicking anyways.

 the Signless wrote:
A general ruling of 'no D weapons on anything but super heavy vehicles and gargantuan creatures' would also silence a lot of the complaints.

Though I still can't see the difference between a squad with strength 10 meltas and strength D guns. They will both kill whatever tank they fire at and then be wiped out in the next turn by return fire. The only thing that this might affect are knights, and those need a good kicking anyways.

I've been saying this for days. An assault squad with 3 meltas will kill something just as dead, and you get a free drop pod, plus it costs way less. And both will die the next round anyways. It's why often ASM are superior to Sanguinary or DC; they just cost less.

Plus, the ONLY way to get wraithguard in a warhost is to take THREE units. That's 480 points locked up, plus you need to buy falcons or wave serpents to deliver them, or they'll never get in range. So 810+ points pissed away for 3 squads, and you really just one 1, 2 at max in 1850. Who knows if you'll ever get 800+ points of kills from them.

Take CAD you say? Well sure, but then give up all those nice bonuses and now you max out at 1 wraithknight.

 the Signless wrote:


Though I still can't see the difference between a squad with strength 10 meltas and strength D guns. They will both kill whatever tank they fire at and then be wiped out in the next turn by return fire. The only thing that this might affect are knights, and those need a good kicking anyways.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Talys wrote:


I've been saying this for days. An assault squad with 3 meltas will kill something just as dead, and you get a free drop pod, plus it costs way less.

3 Meltas are far less certain than D weapons. Meltas, despite being excellent anti-tank units, do have a not-unrealistic chance to fail to penetrate, and a single miss or glance means you're now having to rely on rolling an Explodes result on any pen to kill the target.

Meanwhile the D weapons are just doing gobs of HP damage on 2+. 2 D shots at BS4, even discounting 6's entirely, are putting an average of 1.77HP's on an AV14 tank, while 3 BS4 meltas are putting an average of 1.44 on. The meltas have to be within 6" for that, while the WK can do so from 36" away.

Sure, but for the price of Wraithguard + Transport, you can have 2 squads of ASM with 2 Drop Pods. Or jump packs. Or Death Company with points left over, which kills stuff pretty good, or 1 squad of Sanguinary Guard, with jump packs included that kill stuff awesomely well. Or Centurions.

Regardless, my other point still stands though: unless you want to use CAD and limit Wraithknights, you need to spend 50% of your points on Wraithguard and transports for them, and this is far from optimal.

 Talys wrote:
The Eldar were always a little overpowered, especially for the mid-experience curve.

Unlike, for example, space Marines,

I've played since 2E, and Eldar have always been a strong counter to Space Marines - they are deliberately designed by GW as a hard counter to Space Marines of any flavor. That is why SM players QQ and TwT about them every single edition. Eldar exist to keep the game from devolving into "all Space Marines, all the time". Eldar are not "overpowered" by any means, unless you're talking about their key role as Rock to the SM Scissors (Guard are Paper).

However, as long as SM are the most popular faction, Scissors will continue to claim that Rock is OP and should be nerfed/banned.
____

Experiment 626 wrote:
I didn't start playing 40k until the 3rd edition re-boot, but throughout all these years I've seen & had to try to deal with Eldar excesses that included;

1. Starcannon spam.
A 36" range, S6/ap2 Heavy 3 weapon that could be spammed ad nausium across 5-man Guardian Squads, War Walkers, Vypers, Falcons, Wraithlords, Wave Serpents et all... at a time when Marine armies were lucky to get maybe 40-50 models on the table.

1a. certain power weapon toting Exarchs could buy an ability called Sustained Assault.

2. Alaitoc Ranger list & Disruption table.
Eldar were the first army in 3rd to gain easy access to 2++ cover saves. They also got super snipers who essentially had ATSKNF, could always re-group and never had to take 'All on Your Own' tests...
Then they got the Ranger Disruption Table
And if you min/maxed your Rangers/Pathfinders, you could upto 9 times on this table!! I can recall more than once that this table alone would outright win the game for the Eldar player.

3. Biel-Tan Swordwind
Aspects were the best parts of the Eldar infantry in 3rd & early 4th. Now you could take them as Troops.
Plus they got take an entire unit of 3-5 DA/Fire Dragon/Banshee/Scorpion Exarchs in any combination as an HQ choice.

4. Ulthwe Seer Congress
Not only did Ulthwe armies get BS4 for the seemingly mandatory 5-man Starcannon platforms for no added cost, but now they could also take a unit of 2-5 Farseers + unlimited Warlocks, at a time when Psychic counters were simply non-existent!
Plus they also got the new 5pts Augment Warlock power which would double the range of all those Mind Wars, Fortunes & Guides that the Farseers were tossing about...
Grey Knights kinda laughed in the end due to being the only army that could invuln save ignoring wargear, but overall, no one else could dent a re-rolled 4++ save unit of 40-50+ models. (of which a 1/3 would be wielding Witchblades/Singing Spears!)

5. Flying Circus & Holofield Fire Prisms
The dirty list of mid to late 4th edition... Avoidancehammer at it's most obnoxious, as the Falcons and/or Prisms would shoot, then duck back behind cover. If you ever did manage to get shots off on them, it took an ungodly amount of firepower to get through the Holofields.

5a. Once the Harlie models became widely available, you then had units which would tear up most anything in combat with high WS & I rending attacks, coupled with an unblockable auto-pass psy power that made it almost impossible to shoot the unit down unless you could get within about 6" or so of them!

6. Serpent Spam.
Massed Wave Serpents toting Scatter Lasers for the Laser-lock rule coupled with the shield's shooting attack.

6a. Wraithknights thus far have really seemed more like a fire magnet that simply tanks damage rather than a super OP unit. (at least, my LoC loves currently smacking the things around!)

7. New Scatlas Jetbikes & massed range Str.D
I still don't think the bikes will quite as bad as what is being made of them right now honestly... they're still horribly vulnerable to any kind of Alpha Strike, plus Barrage weapons like Wyverns, Thunderfire Cannons and their ilk will make a huge mess of larger units of the things.
Massed range Str.D could easily become problematic, especially to those who typically rely on lots of MC's such as Tyranids & Daemons, or heavy armour like IG. But still, if the Wraithcannons are still just 12", they're still stuck being expensive suicide units, while D weapon batteries can be nuked by cheap Deep Strikers or other fast moving units.
Gargantuan Creature Wraithknights however look terrifyingly good for only 295pts base!

So overall, from the perspective of what Eldar used to pull in 3rd ed and early 4th, it actually seems like they're getting fewer cheesy antics overall... Back in 3rd, I never had fun against Eldar. Anything my army could do, Eldar did 100x better. Unless a list was based heavily around Guardians with only a couple 'not Guardian' units, it felt like I never had much of a chance in any game.

The Craftworld codex was the absolute peak of Eldar's total & utter domination of the 40k gaming scene. Nothing, not even the most broken aspects of the vaunted 3.5 Chaos codex could lay a finger on the levels of gouda an Eldar player could pull.
At one point when GW actively led & supported a tournament scene, Eldar during one year in the US had over 90 event wins!! Space Wolves were a distant 2nd with barely over 30 wins...

So sure, let the Eldar have their cheapie-cheap Scatlas Bikes and ranged Str.D weapons. At least they're no longer auto-winning at deployment, or laying down 80 man Seer congresses, or spamming high rate of fire S6/ap2 guns, or blenderising entire units in combat without breaking a sweat, etc...

It's funny that you complain about all of the Craftworld armies, because most of them were terrible...

1. Starcannon were the only good heavy weapon in the 3E Codex - pretty much everything else was crap. Then as now, SMs dominated the scene, so it was correct to take a lot of them. However, aside from Wraithlords and Guardians, the platforms that could field them were flat out bad.

1a. Sustained Assault was funny, because your expensive Character could randomly get a very big number. But you could just as easily whiff, and opponents don't remember those times. It's actually more of an Ork mechanic than an Eldar one. The reason 54 hits stands out is because it is so rare - rarer than one-shotting a Land Raider with a Missile Launcher. It's a good choice for fething about for gaks & grins, but it's a terrible competition pick.

2. Alaitoc Rangers and Pathfinders were another gimmick army. Disruption was great against foot Marines, but did basically nothing against mech. Most opponents don't get tabled by Rangers on Turn 0. And Rangers can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Area terrain also meant there was a lot of ground they couldn't shoot, assuming proper terrain placement and density. I would never take them in competition, because the opponent basically has to hand you the win.

3. Biel-Tan Swordwind was a good army, but also the very definition of "glass dagger". In pure form, it is the easiest army to win big, or lose big, because everything is expensive, deadly, minimal-ranged and fragile. If you aren't taking bulk, toughness and rangestrikers, or you take early casualties, you have a very big problem. The Exarch Court is a poor pick, due to high cost exacerbating the glass dagger design. Experience showed that Swordwind formed the base base for a "balanced" mixed force with Guardians and other units.

4. Ulthwe Seer Council was the other good army, for the 2 BS4 Black Guardian units. Thing is, bumping BS3 to BS4 on 2 Starcannon isn't that big of a benefit. Out of 3+3 shots, you only got 1 extra hit per turn, so over a 6-turn game, you killed 5 extra dudes - great if they're Cult Marines, worthless if they're Guardsmen. As with the rest, Seer Council was tough, but it was expensive, and slow - not a good match for my playstyle.

5. 4E Holofalcon / Holoprism was created to push sales of Eldar Mech, but it's a lot of points to put in non-Scoring units.

5a. Harlequins are deadly amusing if they survive to reach HTH, otherwise, it's an awful lot of points to pay for a T3 W1 dude without an armor save. Point for point, I find Sv3+ Scorpions better, but less flashy.

6. 6E Serpent Spam isn't something I play, so I won't comment here.

6a. Wraithknights are/were simply another 2-in-1 unit like the Imperial Knight, except it joins to Wraithlords instead of to Leman Russes. Imperial Knights are (were) better, point for point. Correct that they're a fantastic bullet soak, just like a Wraithlord. For the same effort, the opponent could utterly savage other units.

7. 7E Scatlas & S(D) has a lot of people excited, but I don't think that all Scatter Laser / Shuricannon is the right build, because you're pulling off 27-pt T4 models with every failed save. And it's not like they negate Sv3+. They're simply a very good support unit that helps against Guard and Orks and other Hordes that are the bane of any Eldar army.

The S(D) guns are not really that different from S10 or Melta, when you get down to it. But S(D) is ooh.. scary. Not. People are missing the only real buff - making the Wraithknight a GC - that matters a lot more than making his guns not suck for how expensive he is. Really, GW needed Eldar to counter Imperial Knights, which is what these changes are all about.

As above, back in 3E/4E, Craftworld Eldar were a counter army, and the best at it. The meta was still heavily foot Marines (that killed Guardians like Guardsmen), and Eldar could easily counter that with tremendous efficiency. But that's not cheese. It's simply smart metagaming to autowin 80-90% of the field and hope you don't get a bad matchup against an Ork or Guard player who's loaded for bear and out for blood. If you just got typical first round against Marines (80+% of the time), the other Marines would relegate the Guard players down into the losers bracket and it's smooth sailing after that, provided you didn't feth it up.

Really, if you just want to show how not-broken Eldar are, just bring Guard to the table and you should win most of the time. Even if the Eldar bring their scary S(D) toys in bulk. Let them break cover into the teeth of your guns, wasting their S(D) shots on 5-pt Guardsmen while you drop ID no-save pie plates on their expensive targets...