Players start copy/pasting lists they find on the internet or use tools like Battlescribe without knowing their own books. It's not MY job to review your damn list before we even play a friendly game to make sure you've made a legal list. That's YOUR job.
And because someone cheated you (either through intent or negligence) that we're going to assume FW options don't exist? How would this situation be any different with a book that is either not in stock or you are unfamiliar with?
Maybe a little malice and bias is rearing it's head here.
I know my book and it's supplement. I always had the most recent FAQ printed out (when those were a thing).
Honest question on this part. How is a Tau player less able to describe the flaws with their codex than a non-Tau player or someone that has suspected bias against Tau?
Players start copy/pasting lists they find on the internet or use tools like Battlescribe without knowing their own books. It's not MY job to review your damn list before we even play a friendly game to make sure you've made a legal list. That's YOUR job.
And because someone cheated you (either through intent or negligence) that we're going to assume FW options don't exist? How would this situation be any different with a book that is either not in stock or you are unfamiliar with?
Maybe a little malice and bias is rearing it's head here.
The "malice and bias" is against people that prefer to use netlists and Battlescribe than actually sit themselves down and figure out a list with pen and paper or a typed up document.
It took me, when I got home, not even FIVE MINUTES to check and see that the FW Riptides do not have access to Farsight Enclave items. Battlescribe, as of the time of my game, allowed them to take it.
I know my book and it's supplement. I always had the most recent FAQ printed out (when those were a thing).
If you know your book and its supplement, then you know that Earth Caste Pilot Arrays are in Farsight Enclave.
R'varna allows for two Support Systems--Positional Array and Stimulant Injectors, while Y'vahras are explicitly prohibited from taking any Farsight Enclaves options.
Seriously:
The Y’vahra Shas’vre may take up to two items from the Support systems list (see Codex: Tau Empire)with the same restrictions of choice that apply to a Riptide battlesuit. This
does not include any of the options presented in the Farsight Enclaves supplement.
Honest question on this part. How is a Tau player less able to describe the flaws with their codex than a non-Tau player or someone that has suspected bias against Tau?
I'm not saying that a Tau player is "less able to describe the flaws with their codex", so don't think that's the case.
However there are players who willingly blind themselves to their own codex by only comparing their armies against "tournament gradings" and other nonsense that don't even apply to them as they won't ever step foot in a competitive environment.
If you know your book and its supplement, then you know that Earth Caste Pilot Arrays are in Farsight Enclave.
R'varna allows for two Support Systems--Positional Array and Stimulant Injectors, while Y'vahras are explicitly prohibited from taking any Farsight Enclaves options.
Right. And I'm not the person you played against so I really fail to see how any of this applies to me. Battlescribe or whatever allowed the error to be made could be more in part due to negligence. Just like some were unaware that the proposed rules even changed for it that reduced the AP value. The rules are still experimental are they not? From what I'm used to players generally let both sides see their lists, ask questions, and go over what units they may be unfamiliar with.
However there are players who willingly blind themselves to their own codex by only comparing their armies against "tournament gradings" and other nonsense that don't even apply to them as they won't ever step foot in a competitive environment.
I have gone back several pages to and seen the discussion with the people you are referencing and I frankly do not see the issue. They have made decent points in my opinion. The biggest problem being the Riptide, which admittedly could just some adjustments. However there are units that seriously need adjustments just to function. The railgun broadside was a staple in the 4th ed codex and now it's non-existent because of the glancing system. An immobile S8 AP1 just has no place in the army, especially with the buff to solo crisis suits and fusion guns.
There is a unit that has a working variant loadout and another unit that can fulfill a similar role. Does that mean the Railgun Broadside does not need or should not be adjusted? Not at all.
Firewarriors are decent troops, but have always lacked a complimentary transport. Does the Devilfish not warrant a moderate change because some view a pulse rifle as too good?
Sidestepping the arguments, my wishlist is:
A signature system for vehicles, a nova core for StrD.
Shas'la at BS2, Shas'ui at BS3, Shas'vre at BS4, and Shas'o at BS5.
Rail weapons for suits,
Stealth suit option for commanders,
One of the ethereal characters to get a jet pack so it can keep up with my suits. (Aun'shi)
Measuring the effectiveness of the Tau codex by the Imperial Guard codex is ultimately a flawed approach to determining a books's power. While Tau have many flaws of their own, they can at least stand up to many of the new 7th edition codexes. The same cannot be said of the Imperial Guard, currently one of the weakest codexes. Why should an in-game faction be measured by the weakest in-game faction? Personally, I would measure Tau by the current Space Marine codex: Tau are weaker, but still have a few builds and units that are workable. I'm not saying that Imperial Guard players should just ally in from more powerful armies; every army should be able to stand on its own. I am saying that calling for Tau to be nerfed because one codex is particularly weak is a wrongheaded approach.
For me, the biggest thing I want out of the new Tau codex is some internal balance; I'm tired of playing against and watching the same Tau lists fight over and over. Whether you like their aesthetic or not, Tau do have distinctive models. I want the new Tau codex to give players a reason to use mass Kroot, Stealthsuits, Ethereals, Devilfish, Flyers, even Vespids! Look at the Eldar codex; every unit in there is useable and effective (some being too effective) and their formations give great bonuses while reflecting the lore on the tabletop. Why shouldn't Tau get the same level of internal balance?
carldooley wrote: Sidestepping the arguments, my with wishlist is:
A signature system for vehicles, a nova core for StrD.
Shas'la at BS2, Shas'ui at BS3, Shas'vre at BS4, and Shas'o at BS5.
Rail weapons for suits,
Stealth suit option for commanders,
One of the ethereal characters to get a jet pack so it can keep up with my suits.
I rather like that, everything minus the BS2 on Shas'la. I think a min of BS3 wouldn't be bad, and I'm fairly sure they're more accurate than orks, guard conscripts and drones
Just a quick note to everyone complaining about Tau being OP. Go check the ATC results that were just posted.
The top Tau player is #23 in the standings. The second is 31. Third is 33, and fourth is 52.
Eldar have 7 of the top 10 spots. Space Marines, Necrons, and Daemons make up the rest of the top 20. Notice all of the new codecies there, and then Daemons, which are just super powerful with the tournament results to prove it.
Tau are not OP. If you can't beat them, then you're just doing it wrong. Tau should be brought into the same power level as the 7th edition codecies. They're balancing around that power level. So Tau clearly need a buff, to reach that level.
EDIT: And as someone who knows the #31 player, go look at his list. It runs 1 Riptide. Everyone bitches and moans about this unit. Notice how it just isn't performing on the level you say it does. The thing is 100% fine. It doesn't need a points increase. If it was as good as all the complaining in here, then the top tier list would be running 7 of them, and placing in the top 10. It's just not happening.
EDIT 2:
The list of things I want personally is pretty deep for Tau. I know I won't get all of it, but I'll throw it out there.
More suit commander options. Stealth commanders, the old Shas'el commander, maybe a command Devilfish for mechanized lists.
Devilfish being worth their points, or being made cheaper. If you gave them a TL HBC as a turret, that would make them a super cool light tank\transport.
BS upgrades available at a reasonable price as a support system for Crisis suits
Heavy weapons options for Firewarriors (rail and ion rifles)
Pathfinders as troops, and just in general fixing our force org to be less horrific in the FA and HS slots.
Hammerheads being worth anything again. Strength D on the railgun would do it, kinda.
Decurion style detachments and formations
Fixing our fliers to not be god awful. Or just include the Barracuda and I'll be happy
Adding the FW riptides to the main book, or just more Riptide variants in general to give them a better feel. Right now they almost solely either hunt fliers or TEQs
Broadsides HRR getting buffed. S10 on them wouldn't be unreasonable in this meta. Or S9 lance would be cool, if you want to make it a harder choice between the HYMP, or if you're worried about the flier interaction
The +1 T 2+ save armor being available as a general upgrade.
Tetras making it into the book
Markerlights having a more varied list of things that can be done with them
LockeWatts wrote: If you can't beat them, then you're just doing it wrong. Tau should be brought into the same power level as the 7th edition codecies.
Now hold up. You make some valid points, but these two just rub me the wrong way.
The balance, internal and external in 40K is way skewed worse than it's ever been from what I've seen. Good fluffy units that seem fun can end up being terrible choices and even hurting your army because they're such huge point sinks.
I wouldn't say people are playing the game wrong, just that GW doesn't know what game they want to make and it is hurting everyone.
Secondly, there is no real level with the 7th edition books that I see. When 6th first dropped CSM and DA got released and everyone thought that would be a great start to a well balanced game if the trend continued.
Then Tau and Eldar got released in an environment without grav weapons.
I can agree that Tau don't need to get struck down while others are rising and falling in unpredictable fashion. But I don't believe for a second the fault relies solely on the players.
The balance, internal and external in 40K is way skewed worse than it's ever been from what I've seen. Good fluffy units that seem fun can end up being terrible choices and even hurting your army because they're such huge point sinks.
You're not wrong, but the solution is not to nerf Tau. It's externally imbalanced because GW is rebalancing the power level at a new spot, and until that happens across the board, there won't be balance. That's the point of 7th being at the power level it is. If everything is OP, nothing is.
Internal imbalance is just because GW wants to sell models, and fluffy models don't always sell. I can't help that, but the solution certainly once again isn't nerfs.
I wouldn't say people are playing the game wrong, just that GW doesn't know what game they want to make and it is hurting everyone.
I'm talking in terms of competitive play. Everyone who is complaining about how Tau are unbeatable, it's so unfair, etc etc, that's on them. Tau are clearly beatable, and not even in the "top tier" category. They're squarely in tier 2.
Secondly, there is no real level with the 7th edition books that I see.
Tournament results disagree. The 3 new books hold 16 of the top 20 general spots at ATC. They're also the 3 most common armies at the tournament. The other 4 are 2 Daemons players, which used to run the competitive scene, a Nids player (at #20), and a SW player, which have had a scary deathstar that's been tournament competitive for a long time.
When 6th first dropped CSM and DA got released and everyone thought that would be a great start to a well balanced game if the trend continued.
Then Tau and Eldar got released in an environment without grav weapons.
I can't speak to that, I played 3rd 4th and 5th, but skipped over 6th completely. Started playing again at the start of 7th. I missed the days of Tau being king, apparently.
I'd personally just be happy getting a little variety in the troop choices without having to play FSE (don't get me wrong I love my FSE army), and I'd like to see some actual variety in the HQ section of the army instead of mono build cheap guys and the "buff-mander".
Riptides do need a point increase to the IA, but the suit itself is well costed; however, the FNP upgrade should function just like it does on the FW suits and not be alowed to save the NOVA wound (I actualy play like this because it makes more sense, balances the unit, and the FW rules really point to that being the intended rule).
Another "nerf" would be to limit the signature systems to one per model just like the majority of other books have done. This would eliminate the buffmander, and force more varied crisis suit hqs; however, once again that should only be done if they actually put some variety in the HQ section, otherwise the buffmander is a sad nessisty to allow the building of tournament competitive lists.
My last request would be to see a HRR broadside return to being useful. I run 3 in my lists because I LOVE THE MODEL, but I've never seen them do more than pop a rhino or two, due to the static nature of the unit, before being reduced to sniping off one or two meq models a turn because the big stuff either gets away from them, or they get shot off the board. I can see this happening in a couple of ways, leave them S8 AP 1, and make them TL savlo 1/2 instead of heavy or whatever the combination is that lets them shoot more when they stand still. Make them S9 AP1, and give the model relentless. Or return them to S10 AP1 and leave them as is, and as far as the missle side goes... yeah I don't have a fix for that other than making that a 10 or 15 point upgrade, as the state of the game makes the massed S7 shots far more effective than it should be.
Just my two cents, I'm sure the haters will dive on me soon.
for those who have a problem playing against tau, a couple ideas;
1. play maelstrom. I play suit heavy FSE (so NOT static), and even then the games are CLOSE when playing for points.
2. If list tailoring is going on, try this: bring 2 or 3 lists to your next game in envelopes. let your opponent choose one after (s)he builds h(is\er) list, then reveal the rest so that it is apparent that they aren't all the same. for further hijinks, have your opponent do the same.
3. Swap armies. (for a game)
4. Take some time and actually read the Codexes. There are reasons for, ahem, free sites if you are playing competitively. If you play casually, there should be nothing wrong in borrowing your buddy's books so you can actually read up on what their army can do.
There's a ton of Tau units that need buffs. So many units I never see used.
And for the record, there's nothing OP at ALL about the pulse rifle when the scatterbike is running around. Plus, the Devilfish sucks pretty hard too, so that's another kick to the head for fire warriors.
Martel732 wrote: And for the record, there's nothing OP at ALL about the pulse rifle when the scatterbike is running around. Plus, the Devilfish sucks pretty hard too, so that's another kick to the head for fire warriors.
Too bad our Farseer friend seems to have taken his ball and gone home, because I'm sure he'd have an explanation for why scatterbikes are weak compared to the indescribablyOP fire warriors. Or why Eldar armies take almost all the top spots in tournaments but Tau are the real problem.
Martel732 wrote: There's a ton of Tau units that need buffs. So many units I never see used.
And for the record, there's nothing OP at ALL about the pulse rifle when the scatterbike is running around. Plus, the Devilfish sucks pretty hard too, so that's another kick to the head for fire warriors.
Believe it or not in my experience the Devilfish is actually still pretty useful, in particular when holding objectives and getting your Fire Warriors to optimal firing positions. Especially when you give it Disruption Pods, stick it in cover and hang out there with the 4 up cover save while pumping smart missiles down range.
So we are overpowered because we have to ally with with some of the most broken armies out there just to stand a hope in hell against your Tau.
Instead of making up silly quotes about what I'm saying maybe you could just read what I'm actually saying. IoM has lots of options available to them. The current set up of the allies matrix, psychic phase, formations, and detachments offers far more options to the IoM than Tau. Considering FW options and it leans more in the IoM's favor.
I said that it is fair to assess an army or unit based off what can be paired with it. Much like you compare markerlights in every Tau unit comparison. Without even talking about a list you make an assumption that there are markerlights available. Why? Because it is an option you fully accept exists. It is a double standard.
And here you go again, claiming that all IoM armies are the same and that we players of the weaker armies need to just shut up, stop whining and get using that allies matrix already. I mean, we have tons of formations available.... If we actually take the right force. And FW loves us..... But the rules for their IG units where written with 5th edition prices in mind and, well, have you even read book 2?
And Markerlights and an integral core part of the Tau army. They exist for a reason. You do not have to take a bunch of allies to get them so why should I?
I should be able to take on a Tau force and have a decent chance of winning, assuming I have not made some utterly idiotic choices with my army. Right now 99% of the time I will lose no matter what I bring. Of course by your reasoning that is my fault for not bringing 2 Knights and a dozen SM squads.
Not at all. Even without FW options available. I'd have to ask to see a battle report and list composition since a 99% lose rate suggest there may be something noticeably wrong. I know for a fact I could not pull a 99% win rate against IG players in my area if I ever bothered counting. Maybe this is causing a bit of malice and bias on your end.
After having played Tau a couple of times this is what it feels like. The early turn tabling is laughable.
Tau were my first army, so if they actually do some of these things, Imma switch armies
Kits:
*New Crisis Suits: With the raptor legs of the Riptide, underslung weaponry and a general more modern design.
*New Fire Warriors/New Unit Entry: The Fire Warriors are distincly fine, but could use a bit of work - A bit larger guns, more techy armour, more cultural things like knives, honour bands, heads and things. New unit entry could be whatever, but the more infantry models and entries the better (Veterans, splitting Fire Warriors up into two like Skitarii, so forth).
*Plastic Ethereal: Ethereals are vastly underappreciated right now - I want more
Rules:
*Pathfinders should be split up into two different unit entries: Pathfinders, who have no Markerlight, but get the special weapons and drones, plus Scout and maybe Stealth, and something like the old Pathfinders with the Markerlights. I wanna play sneaky shooty, but not at an increased price.
*Improve the fliers. Seriously improve the fliers.
*Cut out a few of the Systems - A bit too much boost, removes weaknesses too easily.
*I like the idea of letting Supportive Fire make the charged unit flee instead of making a ball of hate - Maybe combine them, disallowing the charged unit to Overwatch.
*Somehow improve the mechanical stuff, I dunno.
Messy0 wrote:-Stealth Suits to Troop choice. They can stay the same price but make them troops.
-It pains me to say it but...marker lights at -1 cover
-no gets hot in HBC, other than that riptides stay the same
-stealth suit HQ thats not shadowsun or make stealth/shrouded a unique upgrade for commanders.
-Hammer heads become single shot D weapons. Can be taken in squadrons upto 3.
-Broadisdes become Heavy 1 TL S10 Ap1. When they changed them to S8 Knights and Wraithknights (as they are now) didnt exist, things have changed and S10 is now really needed again in tau armies.
- Kroot good at CC, more variations of krrot (or a kroot/merc codex that BB with Tau)
- Vespid...
- Paycher race added to tau (maybe in Tau mercs codex, see Kroot)
- Path finders gain stealth, can take all special weapon upgrades, markerlights as an optional upgrade made troops
- Devil Fish cheaper and FA/dedicated transport
- Tank squadrons (Skyray, HH)
- Flyers that dont suck
- Tau fortifications (feth the fluff, tau would total build a fortification if necessary
-relentless on broadsides
-Sniper drones an optional upgrade to firewarrior squads or stand alone unit
-Shield and marker drones on tanks
- New Superheavy suit thats not forgeworld with D weapons!
- more formations and a Tau decruion(s)
Other than that our codex is perfect as it is...I dont want much.
BlaxicanX wrote: The biggest changes to the Tau book I would make are increasing the Riptide's base cost to 200 with the IA costing 50 points, and changing markerlights to a modifier for denying cover rather than straight ignores cover. I'd also probably cap the ballistic skill boost to BS4.
Everything else would be buffs. Make vespid and the heavy/sniper drones useful, give kroot straight up stealth rather than [forests], take some points off the devilfish, and more.
so you want a Riptide with IA with a max BS of 4 (not including the cost of bringing the markerlights themselves) to be 40 points cheaper than a GC with 2 D weapons, ala Wraithknight...your not serious
I can agree with some of this, but I think some of these suggestions are misguided or go too far.
1. Stealth Suits don't need to be troops, they need to be cheaper and more versatile.
2. The Riptide needs a points increase, or changes to the Ion Accelerator. The HBC can lose gets hot though.
3. I like this idea. Stealth Suit commander or IC could be really interesting.
4-5. No. The Hammerhead needs submunitions stock (or better ones), not a D-weapon. The problem is the Wraithknight, not that Tau don't have the means of killing one. Also, the reason Broadsides got S8 rifles was because they got skyfire. Give them S10 and there's no reason for anyone to take flyers.
6. Tau aren't allowed to be good at CC (except for Farsight, who gets to be mediocre). More Kroot options is definitely good though.
7. Vespid need a massive points decrease and better leadership. Along with a reason to take them.
8. I can get behind this if it was limited and expensive, like a costlier Primaris Psyker.
9. Pathfinders as troops I like.
10. Also a good idea; Tau need all the mobility they can get, and the Devilfish is too costly to provide it.
11. Squadrons are always good.
12. Make the current flyers better. I don't know how, but there has to be a way.
13. Maybe put some of the FW ones in the codex?
14. Again, moving broadsides would add needed mobility.
15. I think you want sniper drones to be actually useable. They need a better BS.
16. Maybe on Devilfish, but I can't see them on tanks; why would you take the Skyray?
17. But the KX looks so cool!
18. Formations are the future. No problems there.
19. I'm up to 19 items. I don't call this a short list...
thanks for the awesome detailed reply. I'll try and give one back
1) I think they could go a few ways with stealth suits. Making them troops would be my personal preference. I agree they could be more versatile by giving them more weapon options etc, i just think they would suit perfectly as troops. Im sure there will be a formation that will satisfy both our ideas of what they would be, they seem perfect for a formation.
2) I personally get a lot more mileage out of the HBC/SMS/VT/EWO Riptide than any IA configuration. IA is generally just good against SM armies TEQ/MEQ and since SM are the most prevalent army the IA get a whole buttload of hate. A slight points increase to the IA will probably happen but the IA its self in a vacuum (without marker support) really isnt that great. Fixing markers will also fix the IA.
3) We agree, a stealth commander would be awesome
4-5) I didnt really think of the implications of skyfire and S10. without mass S10 or experimental riptides Tau have a tough time dealing with some of the tougher targets of 7th. I still think HH Rail should be D. If they were to improve the Submissions shot of the Rail HH there would be no place foe the Ion HH.
6) the Ethos of Tau is to take the best of other societies into the greater good, knowing their own weaknesses i think they would havew found a good CC meatshield race by now, the kroot should be perfect for that. I dont want them to be TH/SS terminators or anything but at least as good as an orkboy etc.
7) I agree on Vespid, this could be fixed by a formation or special ability like skyleap for the swooping hawks. I personally would fix their Ld and make their guns 18" assault 2 with a slight points decrease and a skyleap bomb when they deepstrike.
8) agreed
9) agreed
10) An alternative to the devilfish would be a smaller open topped transport. This would allow fire warriors to preform drive by's and give the much needed mobility to tau. I could see this being very popular in mobile cadres
11) agreed
12) I have no ideas how to make the flyers better, just make the Barracuda a codex flyer and add in the Remora drones with a points decrease( 90 points is silly, 75 i could get down with other than that they are awesome flyers and very Tau)
13) I would like to see a bunch of forgeworld stuff in the codex, Remora, Barracuda, Forgeworld Riptides, Forts etc. Forgeworld are what make tau good atm
14) agreed
15) I definitely want sniper drones to be usable. I think they would be the perfect addition to FW squads (even if they didnt bring stealth), i agree they would need to be at least BS3
16) Skyray have Skyfire, that's what makes their marker great. Marker or Shield drones of devilfish would help help with utility and suitability
17) Dont get it wrong, i love the KX...like i really really think its amazing....but its going to be experimental...which means it wont see tournament use for years...look how long the R'Varna and Y;varah have been experimental. Tau need a Super heavy we can use straight out the box without being experimental.
18) Formations FTW. Tau have so much potential here.
What i WANT is drones to more or less stay as they are or, even better, a few new options in regard to drones.
Furthermore some point changes and fixes on units that are not good enough (stealth suits) or too good (riptides?)
What i EXPECT is something even bigger then a riptide or a new version.
My own Tau are above all infantry and with drones as main theme. Furthermore i like Kroot.
Other units are the support/flavour/tuning i need next to the main theme of a lot of drones and kroot, which are superb flexible units. The suport is needed for more anti-armour, because my drones and kroot can deal with all types of infantry and objectives.
As long as i can keep on playing with lots of drones i am content.
My ultimate WISH: a drone (or other unit) with haywire weapon to deal with Knights. That's it really.,.
At the moment i don't find Tau overpowered by the way.
I just find the few Tau armies i see quite boring (crisis suits and riptides).
Yes, riptides are quite hard, but they can also be dealt with, sometimes VERY easily and they do not explode with D-weapon impact, so easily dealth with in close combat, unlike Knights.
commander dante wrote: What do you want whenever the new Tau codex comes around? What i want: Stealth Suit Commander
Yup
Farsight to either gain EW, or T5, and can take drone upgrades
EW or T5, yes. Don't really care about Drones.
Farsights sword to go back to the old rules (AP2, ignores invuns)
The Dawn Blade never ignored invulnerable saves. It was ignores armour saves and roll 2D6 to pen vehicles.
Vespids to have new models and a buff
Vespids got a slight buff in our current book as well as a price decrease. I just don't think anything will make them a decent choice, or rather one which will be taken over other fast attack choices.
Battlesuits have a buyable upgrade for 2+ armour (no more limited to 1 2+ in an army)
This upgrade would have to be pretty expensive to prevent utter cheese. A unit of 2W 2+ models with JSJ is pretty nasty.
Better Signature Systems
Our signature systems are pretty good, I think. Multi-spectrum, Puretide, Iridium and C&C are all very good upgrades. The rest are less good but still useful in their own situations (Failsafe Detonator is probably the least useful as you're paying for something to happen once the model is already dead. Was more useful before where it could be used to escape from combat rather than be swept).
More customization for ethereals
All they really need is access to Shield Generators to get them a save.
Stealth suits get the 'hard to hit' rule/constantly affected by Invisibility psychic power/ enemies that target them are WS and BS 1
If they got this in addition to Stealth and Shrouded then they would be ridiculous.
Anything you want added whenever a new Tau codex comes out?
I'll drop my list from a previous thread: 1) Markerlights back to what they were in the 4th ed book.
2) Seeker Missiles back to what they were in the 4th ed book (don't need to fire at same target as rest of vehicle shooting but can only be fired using markerlights) with a special rule on the Skyray/fliers allowing it to fire them as normal shooting.
3) Hammerhead Railgun solid shot gains Ordnance. Change the twinlinked burst cannon back into two separate burst cannons to make it a possible choice rather than an automatic trade for SMS, bring back vehicle target locks to allow split fire. Maybe a very small points decrease. Maybe allow squadrons.
4) S9 Broadside Railguns. There's no way those monsters should be weaker than a man portable lascannon. T5 for Broadsides with a points increase (back to 70/model or up to 75?). Maybe bring back Advanced Stabilisation Systems, but which grant permanent SnP rather than the switch on/off that it was before.
5) Points decrease for Stealth suits, would say move them to fast attack but then they'll be competing with markerlights and so still wouldn't get taken (unless we gave markerlights to all stealth suits, rather than just the shas'vre, as a wargear option?). At least in Elites they can see play with a Farsight Enclaves list which doesn't want to use Riptides.
6) Ion Accelerator loses overcharge profile, range decrease for both the standard and nova-charged profile (maybe to 36"?). Increased upgrade cost. Don't like crutches with my Tau.
7) Aun'Va gains 8D6 Strength D Hammer of Wrath attacks from his pimp chair, 12" movement, 4D6" run and charge distance and can assault after running. Also gains a 2++ save, Eternal Warrior and 10W. Becomes a Lord of War. Gets points decrease.
8) Shield Drones gain a special rule allowing them to be nominated as the model making a Look Out Sir! even if they're not the closest model, no roll required.
9) I would say fix Vespid but I have no idea how. Maybe make the Neutron Blaster a template weapon? Maybe be S4 rather than 5 to balance it out?
10) Slight points decrease for Devilfish
11) Farsight gains Eternal Warrior. Maybe some form of wound regen from the Dawn Blade? At the end of the fight subphase if Farsight has slain an enemy with the dawn blade then roll a dice, on a (5+ or 4+ maybe?) he regains a wound. This cannot take him above his starting number of wounds. Can only regenerate one wound per fight subphase. Points increase to incorporate these new rules of course.
12) Points decrease for Shield Generators, maybe down to 20 each?
13) Make bonding knives useful for Crisis Teams. Maybe a re-roll to morale tests or something?
ORicK wrote: What i WANT is drones to more or less stay as they are or, even better, a few new options in regard to drones.
...Exploding Drones with an EMP Pulse.
Deepstrike capable, explodes with a large blast when within 1" of an enemy or destroyed. No other ranged weapons. S9/10 AP3 Ordinance large blast + Haywire. Can be taken in units of 1-12...that would be awesome.
Deepstrike capable, explodes with a large blast when within 1" of an enemy or destroyed. No other ranged weapons. S9/10 AP3 Ordinance large blast + Haywire. Can be taken in units of 1-12...that would be awesome.
Would make the regular tiger shark worth taking for sure if they were able to get access to that Drone.
And here you go again, claiming that all IoM armies are the same and that we players of the weaker armies need to just shut up, stop whining and get using that allies matrix already. I mean, we have tons of formations available.... If we actually take the right force. And FW loves us..... But the rules for their IG units where written with 5th edition prices in mind and, well, have you even read book 2?
You're putting so many words in my mouth it's like your force feeding me a thesaurus. Since you're not arguing against what I'm actually saying, I'll just leave it at that.
And Markerlights and an integral core part of the Tau army. They exist for a reason. You do not have to take a bunch of allies to get them so why should I?
So then you do admit that you consider options legally available to units rather than the unit on it's own? Again, a double standard.
Regardless, markerlights are a unique mechanic. They are put on to weak units with generally poor leadership, expensive, low model count, immobile, and are such a high priority target. Even doing a drone commander build uses up an expensive HQ slot and is still far from invulnerable.
Generally the answer is pathfinders in separate units because markers do not buff the unit they are in. Unlike psykers or HQ buffs, these units are rather easy to take down. Doesn't IG have anyform of multishot artillery/mortar unit?
The Tau's "OP" buff mechanic is generally limited to the FA slot and limits bringing other units from that slot, although the only unit worth a damn in that slot is piranhas.
They cost points and take up slots to bring. They are rather easy to kill.
After having played Tau a couple of times this is what it feels like. The early turn tabling is laughable.
Then I have to ask to see your list. Are you running armor in your lists?
OT I'd like to see Shapers get dropped down to a simple sarge upgrade. I know the fluff makes them a lot more important than that. Facing facts though, they have never had a clue on how to make Shapers interesting or worth taking (even in the Rogue Trader RPG) and just making them able to see play at this point is a step in the right direction. Cost a bit extra, bring leadership up a bit. Done.
Krootox squads I'd like to see broken off into a fast attack unit like the rest of the Kroot riders used to be.
Vespid I honestly have no clue about.
Shield drones need to go back to the way they were or offer some kind of void shield advantage (have to bypass an AV10 shield before unit takes damage) that removes the drone when it goes down. As they are, with the way wound allocation goes there is just no reason to take them over drones that do something.
IA and Ion Cannon get swapped but with the Riptide keeping the Nova stat for the cannon.
Stealthsuits should honestly be changed to upgraded pathfinders and take up a FA slot. Give them a toned down burst cannon and a marker system and then tinker around until points and durability are matched accordingly.
Personally I always thought markers should work for the unit unless specifically mentioned it works for other units.
I was hoping it'd be like a support system, something that costs points and takes up a slot for crisis suits and riptides.
Like for a certain amount of points a crisis suit squad leader would get a markerlight he can use for his unit alone. For more points he could get a heavy 3 version
Pathfinders would be not required but still fill a unique role. Putting marker lights on units further down field. That way vehicles and Broadsides would be able to lay down fire from afar rather than having to move up and try to paint a potential target.
carldooley wrote: since we seem to be back to wishlisting, how about these 2?
Markerlight nerf -1 cover in exchange for more networked markerlights
Supporting fire a purchasable upgrade like target lock?
I really like this because it's not a big nerf against most things, but a significant one versus units with stealth/shrouded that rely on their cover saves.
I'm not with you on the supporting fire thing however, it's kind of that makes Tau unique, like AM orders.
Finally, what I'd like to add:
- Decrease the Str of missile pods (both regular and high yield) to 6.
- Increase the Str of railguns to 9.
This would get rid of the "One gun to rule them all" thing Tau currently suffer from. Tweaks to other weapons might be necessary but I feel those would be most important.
Heavy rail rifle should be S8 AP1 armorbane, with an additional +1 to the result, AP 0 if you will. You will still probably see all missile pods, but at least I tried.
The rail gun on the Hammerhead should be straight up Str D.
"Markerlight nerf -1 cover in exchange for more networked markerlights "
Maybe. With all the jinking units, though, I think 2 lights for ignore cover is fair. Just nerf the IA badly. Ignore cover on other Tau weapons isn't as obnoxious.
Messy0 wrote: thanks for the awesome detailed reply. I'll try and give one back
1) I think they could go a few ways with stealth suits. Making them troops would be my personal preference. I agree they could be more versatile by giving them more weapon options etc, i just think they would suit perfectly as troops. Im sure there will be a formation that will satisfy both our ideas of what they would be, they seem perfect for a formation.
2) I personally get a lot more mileage out of the HBC/SMS/VT/EWO Riptide than any IA configuration. IA is generally just good against SM armies TEQ/MEQ and since SM are the most prevalent army the IA get a whole buttload of hate. A slight points increase to the IA will probably happen but the IA its self in a vacuum (without marker support) really isnt that great. Fixing markers will also fix the IA.
3) We agree, a stealth commander would be awesome
4-5) I didnt really think of the implications of skyfire and S10. without mass S10 or experimental riptides Tau have a tough time dealing with some of the tougher targets of 7th. I still think HH Rail should be D. If they were to improve the Submissions shot of the Rail HH there would be no place foe the Ion HH.
6) the Ethos of Tau is to take the best of other societies into the greater good, knowing their own weaknesses i think they would havew found a good CC meatshield race by now, the kroot should be perfect for that. I dont want them to be TH/SS terminators or anything but at least as good as an orkboy etc.
7) I agree on Vespid, this could be fixed by a formation or special ability like skyleap for the swooping hawks. I personally would fix their Ld and make their guns 18" assault 2 with a slight points decrease and a skyleap bomb when they deepstrike.
8) agreed
9) agreed
10) An alternative to the devilfish would be a smaller open topped transport. This would allow fire warriors to preform drive by's and give the much needed mobility to tau. I could see this being very popular in mobile cadres
11) agreed
12) I have no ideas how to make the flyers better, just make the Barracuda a codex flyer and add in the Remora drones with a points decrease( 90 points is silly, 75 i could get down with other than that they are awesome flyers and very Tau)
13) I would like to see a bunch of forgeworld stuff in the codex, Remora, Barracuda, Forgeworld Riptides, Forts etc. Forgeworld are what make tau good atm
14) agreed
15) I definitely want sniper drones to be usable. I think they would be the perfect addition to FW squads (even if they didnt bring stealth), i agree they would need to be at least BS3
16) Skyray have Skyfire, that's what makes their marker great. Marker or Shield drones of devilfish would help help with utility and suitability
17) Dont get it wrong, i love the KX...like i really really think its amazing....but its going to be experimental...which means it wont see tournament use for years...look how long the R'Varna and Y;varah have been experimental. Tau need a Super heavy we can use straight out the box without being experimental.
18) Formations FTW. Tau have so much potential here.
19) this really wasn't a short list =P
No problem
Again, while I can't see Stealth Suits or Crisis Suits as troops, Pathfinders really need to be troops. Like you said, there will almost certainly be a formation that lets people take lots of Stealth or Crisis Suits without having to take troops.
Personally, I would argue for Lance for Tau railguns. It would prevent the Broadside railgun from making all flyers obsolete, as there are no flyers with more than AV12, and would give the Hammerhead a massive boost to its ability to take out AV13/14.
My comment about Tau in CC was meant more as a joke. I agree that Kroot should be at least serviceable in CC, as that is what the lore tells us that the Tau use them for. Maybe make their base gun an assault weapon, and give them two CCWs and Furious Charge or Counter Attack.
People need a reason to take Vespid over other choices; they currently don't do anything the rest of the codex doesn't do better. My vote is for giving their gun Haywire, as that would let them threaten vehicles.
The Devilfish just needs to be cheaper, maybe 70 points base. I like the idea of a super-piranha as a transport. Maybe a combo-kit with a plastic Tetra?
Tau Forgeworld is excellent, and it would definitely be good to see more of it made plastic and incorporated into the regular codex.
I like the idea of Fire Warriors being able to take Sniper Drones, as long as there was also the option to take the Sniper Drones as a separate unit in another FOC slot.
The R'Varna and Y'Vahra are arguably just as undercosted as the Riptide. I could see them getting a points increase, moved into the main codex, and potentially made a LoW. Unfortunately, I get the feeling that Farsight might be moved to a LoW instead.
that is one of the things that a nova reactor could do for a hammerhead. Just as it gives a riptide options, it could do the same for vehicles, hence the signature system or upgrade , option.
What could the nova options be?
My choices would be:
StrD for the railing or haywire for the ion cannon or,
Shoot all weapons twice or,
Flyer rules for a turn (as well as the ability to enter ongoing reserves) or,
3+ Cover.
7) Aun'Va gains 8D6 Strength D Hammer of Wrath attacks from his pimp chair, 12" movement, 4D6" run and charge distance and can assault after running. Also gains a 2++ save, Eternal Warrior and 10W. Becomes a Lord of War. Gets points decrease.
This made me laugh, and I still wouldn't field him.
carldooley wrote: that is one of the things that a nova reactor could do for a hammerhead. Just as it gives a riptide options, it could do the same for vehicles, hence the signature system or upgrade , option.
What could the nova options be?
My choices would be:
StrD for the railing or haywire for the ion cannon or,
Shoot all weapons twice or,
Flyer rules for a turn (as well as the ability to enter ongoing reserves) or,
3+ Cover.
Yours?
These are all great suggestions. I have a feeling that if the new missile suit (rumored) is true then it will be limited shot D weapons, like seekers but nuclear! It would be awesome if there was a way to add 1 shot D weapons to our heavy tanks as well. Your Nova suggestions are probably better though.
And as long as it does not create no-brainer hammerhead armies (correct point cost), because i still have to get over my annoyance of the Tau flying circus of the 4th "skimmer" edition. I don't field broken units on general principle and it took me a long time before i wanted to field any hammerheads again...
I quite like the Tau as they are now.
A few units need a small boost/fix and Tau need a tiny bit of help (but not too much) against the number of titans in the current meta.
Not reading the whole thread. What I would like to see is a Decurion setup which should happen as that seems to be the current format.
Start with say 2 or 3 squads of firewarriors(of whatever flavor)
A Crisis team
An HQ Then open up different formations
Crisis Formation 3 squads of crisis suits
Fire Support cadre
1-3 Riptide(of whatever flavor, hopefully hey will include FW options(not going to hold my breath on that or even be disappointed when it doesn't happen)
Recon formation with pathfinders, stealth suits, and piranhas.
Tank formation with hammerhead squadrons
Anti-air formation with skyrays
Air Formation that makes the aircraft useful.
Hoping in the new FW book which supposedly comes out in the near future, FW will switch to a formation format which allows their stuff to go into decurions, thus allowing their use again without a CAD.
if the next tau codex is formatted like the SM codex, I hope that we get something like a Firewarrior squad or Pathfinder squad for each other detachment taken in the army. Call it a tax if you want, but those two units taken in spades would cause even more hate than anything we have dealt with before.
Seriously though, the requirement to take a FW or Pathfinder squad for each HQ, Elite, FA, or Heavy slot would be thematic, fluffy, and force people to buy MOAR models. If anything, it would be FW only, but I could hope for a buffing unit like pathfinders as well.
Martel732 wrote: Heavy rail rifle should be S8 AP1 armorbane, with an additional +1 to the result, AP 0 if you will. You will still probably see all missile pods, but at least I tried.
The rail gun on the Hammerhead should be straight up Str D.
"Markerlight nerf -1 cover in exchange for more networked markerlights "
Maybe. With all the jinking units, though, I think 2 lights for ignore cover is fair. Just nerf the IA badly. Ignore cover on other Tau weapons isn't as obnoxious.
Are you kidding me? Ignore cover is just about THE most obnoxious thing Tau have. I don't even play half my armies against Tau because they almost solely rely on cover saves..
Martel732 wrote: Heavy rail rifle should be S8 AP1 armorbane, with an additional +1 to the result, AP 0 if you will. You will still probably see all missile pods, but at least I tried.
The rail gun on the Hammerhead should be straight up Str D.
"Markerlight nerf -1 cover in exchange for more networked markerlights "
Maybe. With all the jinking units, though, I think 2 lights for ignore cover is fair. Just nerf the IA badly. Ignore cover on other Tau weapons isn't as obnoxious.
Are you kidding me? Ignore cover is just about THE most obnoxious thing Tau have. I don't even play half my armies against Tau because they almost solely rely on cover saves..
Really? Cry me a river because the power armor saves I PAID POINTS FOR are ignored all the time by AP 2 spam. But you can't handle Tau paying points to ignore cover that YOU GET FOR FREE? What do you do on table with little cover? Pack up and quit? Because some battles do take place in relatively open areas, like Eastern European/Western Russia battles from WWII.
Armies that have poor saves usually have a lot of wounds per point, and so are superior at soaking many of the popular weapons in the game. One of the big liabilities of power armor in the game is that meqs frequently get no benefit at all from cover.
I'd be perfectly fine with cover going down to a modifier rather than being ignored.
Personally I always thought "ignores cover" should remove terrain advantages but not that of gear that grants stealth/shroud and such.
Markerlights still cost points and they are hard to allocate at times because marker sources can't split their fire. Getting a unit a good cover save works really well to force target priority and soak up marker tokens. If you're so sure that cover won't matter why not just avoid it all together and move straight through the open sections of the field?
Hello
i want them to remove homing from the smart missle system.
i want a stealth suit commander.
i want a gue 'vesa
i want units of just krootoxs.
i want riptides to be more expensive.
i want the codex to be nerfed just enuogh to let people play and... you know... HAVE FUN
hanshotfirst wrote: Hello
i want them to remove homing from the smart missle system.
i want a stealth suit commander.
i want a gue 'vesa
i want units of just krootoxs.
i want riptides to be more expensive.
i want the codex to be nerfed just enuogh to let people play and... you know... HAVE FUN
All i want is for ALL Options to be viable so we can have a "Variety" of ways to play instead of bog standard point and erase
i also want no more ignores cover. markerlights to be 2 pts per model on a pathfinder and i want battle suits to come with burst cannons stock. i also think farsight should get +1 ws +1 wound a 3+ invul eternal warrior IWND and moved to lords of war.
I don't suppose that there has been any proposed rules for the supremacy armor, or if it is a troll?
personally, something I'd like it to have, (or something similar if it doesn't make it into a codex or supplement) is something like a capacitor system. If you have read my previous posts in this thread there is no secret that I'd like there to be access to Nova Reactors on platforms other than riptides, but I'd like to see a superheavy walker or gmc with something along the lines of capacitance banks, where you don't have to roll for the use of it, but you can have any number of charges at the start of the game and roll a dice for each one remaining at the beginning of your turn. And if you roll a (pick a number, but hopefully only one) it suffers a D hit or something else horrible.
Really? Cry me a river because the power armor saves I PAID POINTS FOR are ignored all the time by AP 2 spam. But you can't handle Tau paying points to ignore cover that YOU GET FOR FREE? What do you do on table with little cover? Pack up and quit? Because some battles do take place in relatively open areas, like Eastern European/Western Russia battles from WWII.
Armies that have poor saves usually have a lot of wounds per point, and so are superior at soaking many of the popular weapons in the game. One of the big liabilities of power armor in the game is that meqs frequently get no benefit at all from cover.
You might not have an armor save, but in most cases, at least you have a cover save. Unless of course I'm playing Tau. Tau have no shortage of spammable AP2 themselves by the way.
I "got cover for free"? So what, so did my opponent. Unless, of course, I'm playing against Tau, then only he almost exclusively gets the benefit of having cover until I remove his markerlights.
The thing is, it's not just the infantry blobs with the poor saves that get royaly F'd over by those markerlights. It's also that 2+ elite unit I've got in my army. It's also any vehicle that's not AV14.
Your armor save gets denied by AP2 spam? Well both armor and cover saves are being denied to me because of AP2 ignore cover spam.
And not every army that has a poor save has a numerical advantage. Yes there are some, like Orks and Nids, but have you ever played Harlequins or Mechanicus?
I'm not saying Tau are OP, but they're such a bloody drag to play against and some armies are just unplayable against them.
Really? Cry me a river because the power armor saves I PAID POINTS FOR are ignored all the time by AP 2 spam. But you can't handle Tau paying points to ignore cover that YOU GET FOR FREE? What do you do on table with little cover? Pack up and quit? Because some battles do take place in relatively open areas, like Eastern European/Western Russia battles from WWII.
Armies that have poor saves usually have a lot of wounds per point, and so are superior at soaking many of the popular weapons in the game. One of the big liabilities of power armor in the game is that meqs frequently get no benefit at all from cover.
You might not have an armor save, but in most cases, at least you have a cover save. Unless of course I'm playing Tau. Tau have no shortage of spammable AP2 themselves by the way.
I "got cover for free"? So what, so did my opponent. Unless, of course, I'm playing against Tau, then only he almost exclusively gets the benefit of having cover until I remove his markerlights.
The thing is, it's not just the infantry blobs with the poor saves that get royaly F'd over by those markerlights. It's also that 2+ elite unit I've got in my army. It's also any vehicle that's not AV14.
Your armor save gets denied by AP2 spam? Well both armor and cover saves are being denied to me because of AP2 ignore cover spam.
And not every army that has a poor save has a numerical advantage. Yes there are some, like Orks and Nids, but have you ever played Harlequins or Mechanicus?
I'm not saying Tau are OP, but they're such a bloody drag to play against and some armies are just unplayable against them.
Marines are often trying to get very close, which often means no cover.
Really? Cry me a river because the power armor saves I PAID POINTS FOR are ignored all the time by AP 2 spam. But you can't handle Tau paying points to ignore cover that YOU GET FOR FREE? What do you do on table with little cover? Pack up and quit? Because some battles do take place in relatively open areas, like Eastern European/Western Russia battles from WWII.
Armies that have poor saves usually have a lot of wounds per point, and so are superior at soaking many of the popular weapons in the game. One of the big liabilities of power armor in the game is that meqs frequently get no benefit at all from cover.
You might not have an armor save, but in most cases, at least you have a cover save. Unless of course I'm playing Tau. Tau have no shortage of spammable AP2 themselves by the way.
I "got cover for free"? So what, so did my opponent. Unless, of course, I'm playing against Tau, then only he almost exclusively gets the benefit of having cover until I remove his markerlights.
The thing is, it's not just the infantry blobs with the poor saves that get royaly F'd over by those markerlights. It's also that 2+ elite unit I've got in my army. It's also any vehicle that's not AV14.
Your armor save gets denied by AP2 spam? Well both armor and cover saves are being denied to me because of AP2 ignore cover spam.
And not every army that has a poor save has a numerical advantage. Yes there are some, like Orks and Nids, but have you ever played Harlequins or Mechanicus?
I'm not saying Tau are OP, but they're such a bloody drag to play against and some armies are just unplayable against them.
Marines are often trying to get very close, which often means no cover.
I'm not sure I totally get the point you're trying the make here. The exact same thing is true for any other army that needs to get close.
My point is that marine benefit from cover far less than say, Orks. I just don't see how Tau taking away a save that you didn't even pay points for is that big of a deal.
First, often points are paid for cover. Stealth. Shrouded. Jink. Maybe not enough, but certainly some.
Second, my Marines really do lament the loss of cover saves when taking all that AP1/2 firepower from Tau. Not as easy to get cover when you need to get close, sure, but it still exists. The idea that my defense against APing my armor is Cover, but Tau have lots of low-AP ignorss-cover options is painful.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd love to see a -1-per-ML return to the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd also love to see all Rail weapons become Ordinance. I know I'm in the minority here, but I really feel that that's more fitting.
"Second, my Marines really do lament the loss of cover saves when taking all that AP1/2 firepower from Tau"
5+++ cover is not going to save you from that many wounds. I'm sticking with cover being largely useless for marines, because AP 1/2 is still taking you from 3+ to 5+++.
"The idea that my defense against APing my armor is Cover"
The real defense is to kill them before they kill you.
"I'd love to see a -1-per-ML return to the game."
Why? With the DA running around, I think that Tau need to stay at 2 for ignore cover.
"but Tau have lots of low-AP ignorss-cover options is painful."
Eldar make me scoop my model much faster with AP 6 weapons. Where is your cover now? Scatterlasers might as well perma ignore cover.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd also love to see all Rail weapons become Ordinance. I know I'm in the minority here, but I really feel that that's more fitting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd also love to see all Rail weapons become Ordinance. I know I'm in the minority here, but I really feel that that's more fitting.
Id rather see armor bane.
Armorbane for the little one, Str D for the big one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd also love to see all Rail weapons become Ordinance. I know I'm in the minority here, but I really feel that that's more fitting.
Id rather see armor bane.
Armorbane for the little one, Str D for the big one.
Oh man makes me want to take rail rifles to go feth up some tanks. also vanquisher broadsides
What about making buff chips (Puretide, TL, Ignores Cover) be exclusive? Meaning that any model can only benefit from one? Wouldn't that make it more of a tradeoff?
Automatically Appended Next Post: But at 3 weapons with 2 shots each, that'd work out to:
3x2x(1/2)(.6) = nearly 2 HP on Pred front armor or IK, without any ML. With ML, they one-round the Pred and take out half an IK.
Probably kill a Rhino or Chimera in one salvo on front armor.
Vs LRs:
3x2x(1/2)(.4) = 1.2HP, mostly pens. Should Pathfinders really have that kind of firepower?
I'd also love to see all Rail weapons become Ordinance. I know I'm in the minority here, but I really feel that that's more fitting.
I'd be okay with that. Makes the Railhead more reliable and so might get taken over other options. It is also the only real way I can see improving the Railgun. Twin-linked isn't really worth it as markerlights exist, armourbane is too strong, Lance is too powerful on a S10 weapon (pen everything on a 3+ or less? Too much) etc.
Would cut Broadsides mobility but then they never really needed to be mobile with Railguns, except for slight repositioning. I think a strength increase to 9 and Ordnance would make Railsides as attractive as Missilesides as their single shots are more likely to actually do something.
Rail Rifles in pathfinder squads, well it cuts their mobility and they lose the second shot at half range. On the other hand were pathfinder rail rifles ever intended to be an anti-tank weapon? Seems to me that they are more for softening up heavy infantry and monstrous creatures and so ordnance doesn't really give them any bonuses against those targets. It also wouldn't fit the description of the Ordnance rule so I don't think they should get it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But at 3 weapons with 2 shots each, that'd work out to:
3x2x(1/2)(.6) = nearly 2 HP on Pred front armor or IK, without any ML. With ML, they one-round the Pred and take out half an IK.
Probably kill a Rhino or Chimera in one salvo on front armor.
Vs LRs:
3x2x(1/2)(.4) = 1.2HP, mostly pens. Should Pathfinders really have that kind of firepower?
Its two shots at 15"
They wont benefit from there own Marker lights
an 18" Infiltrate can be outplayed way easy.
If they commit that close then you should be able to counter feth them pretty easily.
I think the broadside rail rifles need a buff to make them a competitive option to missile pods.
And, while I know it'll never happen, riptides should be walkers. Deff dreads and dreadnoughts are closer to MCs than a riptide, as the former are permanently wired into their mechanical bodies, whereas riptides are simply piloted, like, say, IG sentinels.
Wraithlords and knights, by contrast, make sense as MCs. They are a body directly controlled by a consciousness that uses it as its (only) body.
BoomWolf wrote: Mini armorbane (just +d3) for rifle, armorbane for heavy rifle and D for hammerhead cannon?
I think those are too strong. A S8 gun with armourbane gets an average armour pen value of 15. Broadsides are twin-linked and so a unit of three without marker support will still get an average of 2 hits. Then on average both of those will penetrate any vehicle in the game and then they're AP1, so +2 to damage chart. Even with D the Hammerhead I don't think the Hammerhead would get taken over that.
As for D on Hammerheads, I just don't like strength D
BoomWolf wrote: Mini armorbane (just +d3) for rifle, armorbane for heavy rifle and D for hammerhead cannon?
I think those are too strong. A S8 gun with armourbane gets an average armour pen value of 15. Broadsides are twin-linked and so a unit of three without marker support will still get an average of 2 hits. Then on average both of those will penetrate any vehicle in the game and then they're AP1, so +2 to damage chart. Even with D the Hammerhead I don't think the Hammerhead would get taken over that.
They are RAILGUNS. They are SUPPOSED to be strong. Why limit the game to just a few powerful weapons in the hands of a few codices? Right now, the Tau have two powerful weapons: IA and HYMP. Maybe some of us would like a break in the spam.
BoomWolf wrote: Mini armorbane (just +d3) for rifle, armorbane for heavy rifle and D for hammerhead cannon?
I think those are too strong. A S8 gun with armourbane gets an average armour pen value of 15. Broadsides are twin-linked and so a unit of three without marker support will still get an average of 2 hits. Then on average both of those will penetrate any vehicle in the game and then they're AP1, so +2 to damage chart. Even with D the Hammerhead I don't think the Hammerhead would get taken over that.
They are RAILGUNS. They are SUPPOSED to be strong. Why limit the game to just a few powerful weapons in the hands of a few codices? Right now, the Tau have two powerful weapons: IA and HYMP. Maybe some of us would like a break in the spam.
Right but I'd prefer we tone down our overpowered weapons rather than raise everything to their level. Admittedly I may be a minority in that regard but then again I also had the most fun with my Tau army during 5th and early 6th, before the new book, so maybe I'm just a masochist who loves being the underdog.
I already proposed what I think is the best fix for the IA. Range decrease, points increase and loss of the overcharged profile. This means that if it wants to drop a pie plate then it has to nova-charge the gun (and so not have the 3++ shield or 3D6" thrust) and it cannot move in the same turn it fires. This means it has to position itself the turn before it fires, giving the opponent the opportunity to counter it, and also that it cannot drop a pie plate on an interceptor shot.
Could also switch it and the Hammerhead Ion Cannon around so the Hammerhead has the S8 AP2 and S8 AP2 Large Blast on Overcharge and the Riptide has S7 AP3 and S8 AP3 Large Blast Ordnance when Nova charged
Okay, this might seem weird in a time of overpowering everything, but I feel it's important to make sure that some weapons, units or similar are universally feared in the meta. I feel Rail Weaponry should be one of those, alongside Vortex, Shokk Attack Guns and all that.
The Wise Dane wrote: Okay, this might seem weird in a time of overpowering everything, but I feel it's important to make sure that some weapons, units or similar are universally feared in the meta. I feel Rail Weaponry should be one of those, alongside Vortex, Shokk Attack Guns and all that.
The Wise Dane wrote: Okay, this might seem weird in a time of overpowering everything, but I feel it's important to make sure that some weapons, units or similar are universally feared in the meta. I feel Rail Weaponry should be one of those, alongside Vortex, Shokk Attack Guns and all that.
What's a shokk attack gun? sounds orky.
This funny fella:
It can be plenty deadly on the battlefield. To both sides.
Bharring wrote: And does every thread need to come down to "Waaah, SL bikes beat Marines"?)
Should be more along the lines of " does every thread about Tau have to turn into Waaah Tau are OP but all the awesome stuff in my codex isn't and doesn't need to be brought up"
Back to the original topic:
-I really want to use Rail Rifles but personally I think putting them on Pathfinders is a waste when we have to compete with Marker Lights. I think Fire Warriors should be able to take them either in regular squads or form a special weapon squad of sorts like Imperial Guard.
-Heavy Rail Rifles for Broadsides should become S9 minimum and have some sort of bonus for penetrating vehicles to make them worse taking over Missilesides.
- Having either the Farsight Enclaves book still be legal or a Formation or the ability to take Crisis Suits as Troops in some way.
Fluff reasons say no for fire warrior rail rifles but GW seems to be gaking on there fluff anyway.
Im fine with it on pathfinders as long as they can entice me to actually use it instead of just shooting marker lights. (OMG Tactical decisions in a war game?!?!)
It would be nice if the Hammerhead had another ammo options for its Railgun. Solid shot being Str 10 Lance or Armorbane, Submunnition being its normal Str 6 AP4 L blast, a new exploding anti armor round that does D3 hull points on an unsaved penetrating hit and D3 wounds to a model for every unsaved wound while being Str 10 AP2. Let the exploding rounds be for MCs and medium vehicles while the solid shot is designed to be more reliable vs AV13/14.
-Make Stealth Suits cheaper
-Make Vespid ALOT cheaper
-Give Rail weapons lance, or that thing where you roll 2D6 and pick the highest to pen (is that ordnance???)
-Give Pathfinders and Darkstrider Stealth
-Move Sniper Drones to Elites (also bring out plastic versions that don't cost £25 for 4)
-Make Kroot Initiative 4 and Strength 4
The Tau codex is pretty solid as it is. I think with these changes every unit in the codex will be viable.
Nocturus wrote: I'd like to see Darkstrider become an upgrade to a pathfinder Shas'ui, and not take up an HQ slot.
Unfortunately, GW has been moving away from named character upgrades; see Sergeant Telion and Brother Corbulo. I have a bad feeling that Darkstrider is staying as a HQ. Is there anything that could be done to improve him?
The old style of having an HQ unlocking certain units as troops would have been good for this. Take Darkstrider, Pathfinders are troops and you can now make a very interesting army based around a recon unit. Stealthsuits in elite, piranha and fighter/bomber in FA, with Sniper Drones and Sky ray in HS.
Now though, it's tough to say because I believe they want less FOC moving and only care about formations and such. They need to fix the Pathfinders first. The special weapons are too expensive and Darkstrider being thrown in makes them way too juicy of a target.
Easiest fix would be to drop the price of the special weapons down and give Darkstrider a networked markerlight to buff his squad. I didn't really like how he is supposed to go along with Pathfinders but his buff is for offensive firepower. Pathfinders don't really do that too well.
Nocturus wrote: I'd like to see Darkstrider become an upgrade to a pathfinder Shas'ui, and not take up an HQ slot.
Unfortunately, GW has been moving away from named character upgrades; see Sergeant Telion and Brother Corbulo. I have a bad feeling that Darkstrider is staying as a HQ. Is there anything that could be done to improve him?
The problem with Darkstrider is that he is primarily there to give his own unit synergy with his falling back in overwatch and -1T to shooting but he himself costs a whopping 100 points. The biggest squad he can attach to is either 10 pathfinders who would be using mostly markerlights (trying to not be close to the enemy and the markerlights have zero interaction with toughness) or 12 Fire Warriors which is basically the same points cost as he is. For the points you could just take 12 more Fire Warriors and get double the wounds, map control, and something like 50% more killing power (did the math a while ago, can't remember the exact figure). The fall back is decent but when a squad of Fire Warriors cost double the rest of the squads then the enemy tends to shoot that unit first. Being able to fall back in overwatch doesn't really help you when your already dead. Also the benefit of Darkstrider is directly tied to the power of the unit hes with. As they take casualties then his benefit is greatly reduced. Without a unit he is just a highly accurate pathfinder with more wounds and slightly more killy. Also when compared to Fireblade he just costs a lot more while the Fireblade gives similar if not more shooting power.
The next codex needs to completely revamp what he does so there is a purpose to bring him. A heavy points drop isn't even worthwhile unless its cut to something like 50 points but even then its not all that great. He needs to have some durability increase like shrouded for his squad to make their staying power fit the points investment but really his -1T needs to benefit other units shooting at the target instead of just his own unit. That way we could see him going with pathfinders to markerlight things and still benefiting the army with his toughness reduction. When it comes to HQ slots he just needs to have a rule similar to Arjac or Snikrot where they don't take up a FOC slot if there is a particular unit type in the army (most likely pathfinders).
I guess what really annoys me about Darkstrider is that he is a great concept of a character for the Tau, but takes up a slot in the FOC that you just can't afford to give away if you want to be even semi competitive... I still want to stab people who use Farsight and Shadowsun in the same army...
The obvious one: Formations
Make Rail Rifles and Ion Rifles a 0-2 special weapons upgrade for Fire Warrior teams
Make the Grav-Inhibitor and Pulse Accelerator drones a 0-2 drone upgrade for Fire Warrior teams
Make the Heavy Rail Rifle on Broadsides Heavy 2
Increase the Ballistic Skill of Hammerheads to 4
Point reduction on Stealth suits
Something to make Pathfinders better. Increased survivability, better ballistic skills, inflitrate
they could make the rail cannon a weaker version of a D weapon..... If you roll a 6 to wound or Penetrate it becomes a D weapon and roll on the D chart. How about something like that? Tau already have a D railcannon...Its the Heavy rail cannon.
The obvious one: Formations Make Rail Rifles and Ion Rifles a 0-2 special weapons upgrade for Fire Warrior teams Make the Grav-Inhibitor and Pulse Accelerator drones a 0-2 drone upgrade for Fire Warrior teams Make the Heavy Rail Rifle on Broadsides Heavy 2 Increase the Ballistic Skill of Hammerheads to 4 Point reduction on Stealth suits Something to make Pathfinders better. Increased survivability, better ballistic skills, inflitrate
Fluff-wise Fire Warriors aren't meant to have special weapons. Pulse Accelerator on Fire Warriors is too powerful, especially with two drones in the squad to mitigate it being able to be killed. Considering the hate that gets heaped upon Tau for just castling up and using Supporting Fire to pummel assaulting units I don't think we really want to give ourselves even more of a reason to never move with longer range guns and -D3" charge ranges on units which are already getting hit hard by our overwatch fire. Hammerheads already have BS4, as does the Skyray.
Personally, you could make vespid free and I still don't think I'd field them. Especially since I'd have to buy the models.
They definitely need a lot more than a point reduction to be worth a damn.
Personally, I could support giving the Vespidss' guns Haywire in addition to their normal stats. I would definitely give they a reason to be taken in Tau lists.
Personally, you could make vespid free and I still don't think I'd field them. Especially since I'd have to buy the models.
They definitely need a lot more than a point reduction to be worth a damn.
Personally, I could support giving the Vespidss' guns Haywire in addition to their normal stats. I would definitely give they a reason to be taken in Tau lists.
I'd like to see Haywire, maybe assault two (or rapid fire), and maybe a slight points decrease.
Personally, you could make vespid free and I still don't think I'd field them. Especially since I'd have to buy the models.
They definitely need a lot more than a point reduction to be worth a damn.
Personally, I could support giving the Vespidss' guns Haywire in addition to their normal stats. I would definitely give they a reason to be taken in Tau lists.
I'd like to see Haywire, maybe assault two (or rapid fire), and maybe a slight points decrease.
I agree. In fact, let's do all of that! Give their guns Haywire and Assault 2, make them cheaper, and give them a leadership boost.
I'm actually hopeful Vespid will improve. After all, Mandrakes and Flayed Ones are now somewhat useable.
The obvious one: Formations
Make Rail Rifles and Ion Rifles a 0-2 special weapons upgrade for Fire Warrior teams
Make the Grav-Inhibitor and Pulse Accelerator drones a 0-2 drone upgrade for Fire Warrior teams
Make the Heavy Rail Rifle on Broadsides Heavy 2
Increase the Ballistic Skill of Hammerheads to 4
Point reduction on Stealth suits
Something to make Pathfinders better. Increased survivability, better ballistic skills, inflitrate
Fluff-wise Fire Warriors aren't meant to have special weapons.
Pulse Accelerator on Fire Warriors is too powerful, especially with two drones in the squad to mitigate it being able to be killed. Considering the hate that gets heaped upon Tau for just castling up and using Supporting Fire to pummel assaulting units I don't think we really want to give ourselves even more of a reason to never move with longer range guns and -D3" charge ranges on units which are already getting hit hard by our overwatch fire.
Hammerheads already have BS4, as does the Skyray.
Fluff-wise Tau heavily adapt and modify their tactics based on the for they are facing. Maybe they're coming up against a lot more armour pulse rifles won't get through (marines etc) hence the need for a change in firewarrior load out.
For me that isn't wrecking Tau fluff, it is highlighting one of the core things that make Tau stand out - their pragmatism, that they learn and change.
The obvious one: Formations
Make Rail Rifles and Ion Rifles a 0-2 special weapons upgrade for Fire Warrior teams
Make the Grav-Inhibitor and Pulse Accelerator drones a 0-2 drone upgrade for Fire Warrior teams
Make the Heavy Rail Rifle on Broadsides Heavy 2
Increase the Ballistic Skill of Hammerheads to 4
Point reduction on Stealth suits
Something to make Pathfinders better. Increased survivability, better ballistic skills, inflitrate
Fluff-wise Fire Warriors aren't meant to have special weapons.
Pulse Accelerator on Fire Warriors is too powerful, especially with two drones in the squad to mitigate it being able to be killed. Considering the hate that gets heaped upon Tau for just castling up and using Supporting Fire to pummel assaulting units I don't think we really want to give ourselves even more of a reason to never move with longer range guns and -D3" charge ranges on units which are already getting hit hard by our overwatch fire.
Hammerheads already have BS4, as does the Skyray.
Fluff-wise Tau heavily adapt and modify their tactics based on the for they are facing. Maybe they're coming up against a lot more armour pulse rifles won't get through (marines etc) hence the need for a change in firewarrior load out.
For me that isn't wrecking Tau fluff, it is highlighting one of the core things that make Tau stand out - their pragmatism, that they learn and change.
Thank you, Stux! Yes, I don't see how giving Firewarriors special weapons in, any way, undermines the fluff.
Split pathfinders into two units; special weapons squads that can be taken as troops, no marker lights and normal marker light squads as fast attack.
Pathfinders could do with a camo cloak equivalent.
Kroot need their two attacks back, that was the whole point of the rifle/fighting stave!
I'd like to see seeker missiles have a dual mode warhead, with a blast for anti infantry duties.
Vespid need to decide what their role is; currently sort of supposed to be anti-MEQ, but let's face it the actual marines are generally the last thing your worried about in a SM force. I could buy anti-TEQ or anti-vehicle, but either way I think you need to be looking at a cheap-as-chips suicide squad (like IG veterans/storm troopers).
Savageconvoy wrote: If people really have a problem with Firewarriors having special weapons, just let them take Sniper Drones like they could take any other drone.
Before the FAQ for the missile drones this was something everybody loved. Firewarriors get o keep their fluff and still get a bit of added firepower.
I REALLY would love Missile drones to be more wide spread. Though now im expecting a bajillion MSU Crisis suits with missile pod and drones up the wazooooo.
The "cadre" in apoc has a giant mix of everything (seriusly, it REQUIRES nearly every unit in the codex for some odd reason), but smaller formations like "rapid insertion force" were where the suits came in numbers, but featured no commanders.
Sometimes formations just don't make sense.
As for wide-spread missile drones. I could see it as a thing. but it has a potential to spin out of control with whole squads of them raining hell (or worse, controller missile teams)
What I REALLY want to see in drones, is veraity.
Please someone tell me why are there no "failsafe detonator" drones, or flamer drones? they sort of make the most sense-send a drone in to do the "way too close" jobs.
Farsight really needs a buff last weekend a regular terminator insta killed him with a power fist, so eternal warrior or iridium armour would be nice. The dawn blade is pretty good against vehicles but not much chop against infantry.
The crisis models badly need an update they have barely changed since they were first released, they look incredibly dated now.
I would like to see a turret option for a Devilfish. (Something like HammerHead has. Not as powerful, though.)
Like, a PathFinder squad with Recon drone on a DevilFish can mount the drone to the turret. And it looks bad ass.
I really want Shadowsun to be better, as I like the whole Stealth Suit concept and her model is probably one of the best looking Stealth Suits. Also I really like her special rules, as she can give a Crisis Team good cover saves and the ability to super jet jump, but the points seem way too high for just those things and her range is kind meh.
Basically, yea, I want Shadowsun and even the Stealth Suits to just be buffed a bunch to be more playable. Maybe give her some cool tech, something like you know, she can be the only character to pass infiltrator onto the squad she joins, in addition to what she already does. That would be a cool little buff that wouldn't exactly need a point increase, right?
TranSpyre wrote: I want Shas'O Kais to be in the codex with all his Rip
Also with the KX Supremacy armor being pretty much the pinnacle of Shas'o Or'es'ka's new path of warfare I feel he too should be added. He is from Soulstorm if anyone is wondering. In it he espouses a new path of warfare for the Tau "Great Strength, Great Strike". Hence why I'm so eager to get a KX.
Alcibiades wrote: Whay exactly would human auxiliaries do for the Tau codex? Aren't they just massively inferior shooting?
I would like to see them have pulse carbines standard and be cheaper than FW, but with flak armor. Also bigger allowed squads naturally. They would basically allow us to have an option to blob and bubble-wrap if the commander feels its necessary.
I've always thought human aux would either be fully trained, thus Fire Warrior counts-as (Cadians with Pulse Rifles/Carbines), or ragtag impressed/conscripted hordes, thus Kroot counts-as, with a mix of weapons (conscripts, catchans, mixttures, armed with bolgun/kroot rifle/lasgun) all counting as Kroot Rifles.
A third option is IG forces under Tau command. That'd just lack Psykers and Commissars (as named, but Etherials/Tau could perform those roles). But all that lacks is an Allies of Conviencence permission (or BB).
What do you want to see in the Dex that isn't served by one of those?
Bharring wrote: I've always thought human aux would either be fully trained, thus Fire Warrior counts-as (Cadians with Pulse Rifles/Carbines), or ragtag impressed/conscripted hordes, thus Kroot counts-as, with a mix of weapons (conscripts, catchans, mixttures, armed with bolgun/kroot rifle/lasgun) all counting as Kroot Rifles.
A third option is IG forces under Tau command. That'd just lack Psykers and Commissars (as named, but Etherials/Tau could perform those roles). But all that lacks is an Allies of Conviencence permission (or BB).
What do you want to see in the Dex that isn't served by one of those?
Bharring wrote: I've always thought human aux would either be fully trained, thus Fire Warrior counts-as (Cadians with Pulse Rifles/Carbines), or ragtag impressed/conscripted hordes, thus Kroot counts-as, with a mix of weapons (conscripts, catchans, mixttures, armed with bolgun/kroot rifle/lasgun) all counting as Kroot Rifles.
A third option is IG forces under Tau command. That'd just lack Psykers and Commissars (as named, but Etherials/Tau could perform those roles). But all that lacks is an Allies of Conviencence permission (or BB).
What do you want to see in the Dex that isn't served by one of those?
Tau players to stop thinking they need anything remotely resembling Guardsmen?
You don't need Guardsmen. You want some human units? You get Cultist equivalents--crummy trained troops, because as has been shown in the Deathwatch RPGthe Tau do not trust any of the humans that actually had Guard level training.
Bharring wrote: I've always thought human aux would either be fully trained, thus Fire Warrior counts-as (Cadians with Pulse Rifles/Carbines), or ragtag impressed/conscripted hordes, thus Kroot counts-as, with a mix of weapons (conscripts, catchans, mixttures, armed with bolgun/kroot rifle/lasgun) all counting as Kroot Rifles.
A third option is IG forces under Tau command. That'd just lack Psykers and Commissars (as named, but Etherials/Tau could perform those roles). But all that lacks is an Allies of Conviencence permission (or BB).
What do you want to see in the Dex that isn't served by one of those?
Tau players to stop thinking they need anything remotely resembling Guardsmen?
You don't need Guardsmen. You want some human units? You get Cultist equivalents--crummy trained troops, because as has been shown in the Deathwatch RPGthe Tau do not trust any of the humans that actually had Guard level training.
I second this. You already took our gunline capacity, our mobility and most of our tank. Stop trying to take our artillery and infantry too.
Not really, the HRR isn't a D weapon that causes multiple wounds against characters/MC's with T6 and high or ID's on a 6. Having a weapon that only gets D strength on a 6 is stupid, because then you'd have to roll again on the D chart and risk getting a 1. Just make Railguns strength D with a special rule that lets you over penetrate units on a 6 causing a line of damage that goes through the entire range of the weapon. That would be sweet.
Also, whats really the point of having human auxiliaries when you have kroot anyways? Do people love fluff that much to give Tau another useless unit like Vespids?
Co'tor Shas wrote: Just make IG able to ally with tau better, there's your gue'vessa right there.
Except there's really not "your Gue'vessa right there".
Gue'vessa are--as of the most modern point in the 40k timeline and depending on the planet's "liberation" date--second or third generation individuals. You won't find many ex-Guardsmen or the like in there anymore. It's people who grew up under the Tau, who are trusted by the Tau, trained by the Tau, and equipped with Tau weaponry.
Then you can make something actually cool and useful, like dermiug.
Except there's really not "your Gue'vessa right there".
Gue'vessa are--as of the most modern point in the 40k timeline and depending on the planet's "liberation" date--second or third generation individuals. You won't find many ex-Guardsmen or the like in there anymore. It's people who grew up under the Tau, who are trusted by the Tau, trained by the Tau, and equipped with Tau weaponry.
Not being ex gaurd, does not preclude them from using guard gear. IIRC, human planets produce their own weaponry.
Except there's really not "your Gue'vessa right there".
Gue'vessa are--as of the most modern point in the 40k timeline and depending on the planet's "liberation" date--second or third generation individuals. You won't find many ex-Guardsmen or the like in there anymore. It's people who grew up under the Tau, who are trusted by the Tau, trained by the Tau, and equipped with Tau weaponry.
Not being ex gaurd, does not preclude them from using guard gear. IIRC, human planets produce their own weaponry.
Nope. The Earth Caste, for all intents and purposes, control the manufacturing process and "direct" them as to how to create Tau designed variants of Imperial weaponry.
And "not being ex-guard" does prevent them from being similar enough to the Guard book to justify the nonsense about "make it so that they're Battle Brothers" or other Allied shenanigans.
Or you could make Kroot better.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
When the majority of arguments for Gue'vesa coming into the Tau book are "because Kroot are useless", yeah they kinda are.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frozocrone wrote: Aren't the Gue'vessa seen as Traitors by the IoM anyway?
Yes, but not necessarily because they are actually the individuals who betrayed the Imperium.
The children of traitors are seen as traitors by the Imperium. Any humans wearing the Tau iconography are seen as traitors--same as any marked by the Ruinous Powers.
They should have their own profile in the Codex IMO
And what would they bring to the Codex that isn't already in there?
Except there's really not "your Gue'vessa right there".
Gue'vessa are--as of the most modern point in the 40k timeline and depending on the planet's "liberation" date--second or third generation individuals. You won't find many ex-Guardsmen or the like in there anymore. It's people who grew up under the Tau, who are trusted by the Tau, trained by the Tau, and equipped with Tau weaponry.
Not being ex gaurd, does not preclude them from using guard gear. IIRC, human planets produce their own weaponry.
Nope. The Earth Caste, for all intents and purposes, control the manufacturing process and "direct" them as to how to create Tau designed variants of Imperial weaponry.
Never heard of that, although I'm not quite up on all the new fluff
And "not being ex-guard" does prevent them from being similar enough to the Guard book to justify the nonsense about "make it so that they're Battle Brothers" or other Allied shenanigans.
How? They were probably trained by people trained by ex-gaurd. And the PDF forces probably didn't change very much.
Or you could make Kroot better.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
When the majority of arguments for Gue'vesa coming into the Tau book are "because Kroot are useless", yeah they kinda are.
And when have I ever said that. And you have yet to put a single reaons why kroot can't be made viable, and dermiug added at the same. (beacuse there isn't one)
I want kroot to be viable, and vespid to be viable, and to have more optons like dermiug, nissacar, talleran, gue'vessa ect.
Yes, the tau earth caste are probably directing and upgrading the military industry of human planets.
But it means not that the BASE isn't around IG equipment.
IG chassis equipped with tau weaponry, Gue'vesa squads armed with enhanced las weaponry, markerlight systems integration, and maybe even grav tech are all things that can happen.
A good gue'vesa unit, is a spin-off of iconic guard unit, to fit into tau warfare.
BlaxicanX wrote: Why is it so difficult for people to multi-quote? The red-text-within-a-quote-box is such an eye-sore.
Some of us visit here from our phone at times, and on a phone multi-qoute takes forever to set up.
What if they introduced the Gue'vessa in a different way that didn't require a lot of effort?
Basically what if they said you could replace Kroot squads with Gue'vessa squads and they functioned the same. The difference being that they had different models (GW could make some really cool Tau armoured humans), couldn't take Krootox's but could take the hounds (also different models) and the most important thing to differentiate the two is that while Kroot can upgrade their rifles to Sniper Rounds, the Gue'vessa get a different upgrade but can't get Sniper Rounds.
That doesn't seem complicated and keeps the bloat down since it's basically the units in all but model and potentially a different weapon upgrade. They could also just add the Gue'vessa since right now we only have two troop choices and it would be nice to have another.
Except there's really not "your Gue'vessa right there".
Gue'vessa are--as of the most modern point in the 40k timeline and depending on the planet's "liberation" date--second or third generation individuals. You won't find many ex-Guardsmen or the like in there anymore. It's people who grew up under the Tau, who are trusted by the Tau, trained by the Tau, and equipped with Tau weaponry.
Not being ex gaurd, does not preclude them from using guard gear. IIRC, human planets produce their own weaponry.
Nope. The Earth Caste, for all intents and purposes, control the manufacturing process and "direct" them as to how to create Tau designed variants of Imperial weaponry.
Never heard of that, although I'm not quite up on all the new fluff
Don't do this stupid color crap. It's not hard to work quote tags.
That's not new fluff in any regards.
And "not being ex-guard" does prevent them from being similar enough to the Guard book to justify the nonsense about "make it so that they're Battle Brothers" or other Allied shenanigans.
How? They were probably trained by people trained by ex-gaurd. And the PDF forces probably didn't change very much.
When we're talking three or four generations that have lived and integrated into Tau society? They're not being trained by "ex-Guard". They're being trained by the Tau Fire Caste to integrate into Tau Fire Caste battleplans.
Or you could make Kroot better.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
When the majority of arguments for Gue'vesa coming into the Tau book are "because Kroot are useless", yeah they kinda are.
And when have I ever said that. And you have yet to put a single reaons why kroot can't be made viable, and dermiug added at the same. (beacuse there isn't one)
I want kroot to be viable, and vespid to be viable, and to have more optons like dermiug, nissacar, talleran, gue'vessa ect.
Gue'vesa aren't "an option" as continually suggested. They're literally Guard entries copy/pasted over to the Tau Empire book.
1. No, I don't have the patience to bother with it. Just using colour is easier for me. 2. If it's not new, than where is it from? 3. It's been 2 years since taros was assimilated. The third sphere only started 3 years ago. It has not been 3 generations. And where does it say that the fire caste train them?
And I will point out, that the gue'vessa in the taros campaing book were literally gaurdsmen, it's just that the leader had the option to take a pulse weapon.
Fluff-wise, I think the most commonly encountered forces will probably be some version of PDF.
Co'tor Shas wrote: 1. No, I don't have the patience to bother with it. Just using colour is easier for me.
And "just using color" is lazy and looks awful.
2. If it's not new, than where is it from?
Pre-Tau Empire.
3. It's been 2 years since taros was assimilated. The third sphere only started 3 years ago. It has not been 3 generations.
T'ros was originally an Imperial mining world called Taros and was gradually annexed beginning in 978 M41
It wasn't until 998.M41 that the Imperium launched an attempt to retake Taros
So sure, while Taros hasn't been 3 generations, you do realize that it's been 250 years since the Damocles Gulf Crusade right?
And where does it say that the fire caste train them?
Again, old fluff.
And I will point out, that the gue'vessa in the taros campaign book were literally gaurdsmen, it's just that the leader had the option to take a pulse weapon.
And I will point out that Forge World's "Gue'vesa" are meant to be something easily converted--but when pressed on the issue ages ago they said something to the effect of "We'd like to do a real kit that is actually different in the way they should be but can't justify it"
Fluff-wise, I think the most commonly encountered forces will probably be some version of PDF.
Which means they could range from being as effective as Cultists to Veteran Guardsmen.
Co'tor Shas wrote: 1. No, I don't have the patience to bother with it. Just using colour is easier for me.
And "just using color" is lazy and looks awful.
And I, am an incredibly lazy person. And I don't like spending 15 minutes to get all the quotes right
2. If it's not new, than where is it from?
Pre-Tau Empire.
Huh? How is tau empire fluff from before the tau empire existed?e
3. It's been 2 years since taros was assimilated. The third sphere only started 3 years ago. It has not been 3 generations.
T'ros was originally an Imperial mining world called Taros and was gradually annexed beginning in 978 M41
It wasn't until 998.M41 that the Imperium launched an attempt to retake Taros
So sure, while Taros hasn't been 3 generations, you do realize that it's been 250 years since the Damocles Gulf Crusade right?
Never mind then, I'm just an idiot.
And where does it say that the fire caste train them?
Again, old fluff.
again, where? AFAIK, human worlds tend to mostly run themselves, with direction from the tau, not actual training or anything. Now that may change (especially if these geu'vessa are inductees instead of just PDF)
And I will point out, that the gue'vessa in the taros campaign book were literally gaurdsmen, it's just that the leader had the option to take a pulse weapon.
And I will point out that Forge World's "Gue'vesa" are meant to be something easily converted--but when pressed on the issue ages ago they said something to the effect of "We'd like to do a real kit that is actually different in the way they should be but can't justify it"
I did not know that.
Fluff-wise, I think the most commonly encountered forces will probably be some version of PDF.
Which means they could range from being as effective as Cultists to Veteran Guardsmen.
I thought PDF tended to be what the gaurd recruit from? Or am I forgetting something
Since you're not going to do me the courtesy of taking two minutes to do quote tags, I'm responding in this fashion to you:
1) BEFORE THE BOOK TAU EMPIRE EXISTED, THE TAU CODEX WAS JUST CALLED TAU.
3) READ THE BACKGROUND MATERIAL THAT EXISTS ON THE GUE'VESA. THIS IS NOT NEW MATERIAL.
5) THE GUARD RECRUIT FROM THE PLANET'S POPULATION AND THE PDF. OFFICERS OF THE PDF ARE SOMETIMES USED TO FORM A CADRE OF OFFICERS FOR A NEWLY FOUNDED REGIMENT. VETERAN GUARDSMEN ARE SOMETIMES USED TO FORM A CADRE OF OFFICERS FOR A NEWLY FOUNDED PDF.
1. Ah. Well, I'm most used to the 4th edition codex, (I started in 4th), so I was not thinking along those lines. You can see where the confusion comes from, though. I think I do have the 3rd edition one around somewhere though. (maybe?)
2. Again, and this is the third time I've asked, Where? Just saying "look at the fluff" Isn't an answer. I don't need exact pages or anything, a book (or even series) would suffice. I'd like to know if this "common knowledge" (I.E. fanon, that gets repeated so often it practically becomes canon), or if it's something I haven't read (in which case I want to read it.
2. Again, and this is the third time I've asked, Where? Just saying "look at the fluff" Isn't an answer. I don't need exact pages or anything, a book (or even series) would suffice. I'd like to know if this "common knowledge" (I.E. fanon, that gets repeated so often it practically becomes canon), or if it's something I haven't read (in which case I want to read it.
IT'S CALLED CHAPTER APPROVED. THE FIRST RULES FOR GUE'VESA WERE IN A CHAPTER APPROVED ARTICLE PUBLISHED ONLINE, WHICH YOU CAN FIND STILL BY USING THE WAYBACK MACHINE.
So how about everyone who doesn't like Tau stop posting in a Tau centric thread, and let the people who do like them discuss what they want in a new codex.
I'd like to hear peoples ideas for our formations and detachments. I'm having trouble thinking of a way to properly build them, so I'd appreciate others thoughts.
I'd like to hear peoples ideas for our formations and detachments. I'm having trouble thinking of a way to properly build them, so I'd appreciate others thoughts.
The Big-Detachment is the Tau Coalition. The basic Core formation is the Hunter Demi-Cadre (sorry, but Half-Cadre sounds silly). Stick together two Demi-Cadres for a full Hunter Cadre extra bonuses a'la SM. Other Core formation is an Auxiliary Forces Cadre (Kroot, Vespid, Gue'vesa, whatever). Auxiliary formations are Crisis Suit Cadre, Tank Cadre, Mechanized FW Cadre, Stealth Suit Cadre, Broadside Cadre, Piranha Cadre, Drone "Cadre", and Riptide Cadre. Command formations are Commander "Cadre" and Ethereal "Cadre". That's pretty much all you need.
A new vehicule, some sort of support tank with 4 detachable sniper drones. Drones use the BS of the vehicule and get reduced to BS3 should the tank die.
Most snipers in armies are already BS4 so reducing to 3 on death of tank would not be too bad. Plus there are many ways of making this look boss.
I think it would see alot more use than the current drone sniper teams.
The Big-Detachment is the Tau Coalition. The basic Core formation is the Hunter Demi-Cadre (sorry, but Half-Cadre sounds silly). Stick together two Demi-Cadres for a full Hunter Cadre extra bonuses a'la SM.
I don't think this is a guaranteed thing. Daemonkin, and Necrons have only 1 core option (Slaughtercult and Reclamation Legion respectively), while Eldar have 3. And Marines are unique in their "put 2 of these together to get free stuff" bit. Why do you assume Tau will go that way?
Also as far as the naming structure, a Hunter Cadre is almost certainly the detachment level name. I hope every formation doesn't end with the same word. That would get highly annoying.
Morkai, that doesn't get around the fact that sniper drones are just bad. Putting them on a vehicle doesn't make them better. Competing with Broadsides (and hopefully Hammerheads) for heavy support slots hurts, even in the new formation style books.
Sniper drones, are most certainly not bad, just outclassed. They have one of the best sniper weapons in the game, can move and shoot, JSJ, and have stealth. They are just competing for the HS slot, which makes them less desirable.
They have one of the best sniper weapons in the game
Uhh... 48" Rapid Fire AP5 does not make one of the best sniper weapons in the game. The Vindicare called, it wants it's title back.
move and shoot, JSJ,
The Marksman can't, which severely limits the utility of these.
I think Sniper Drone Teams were a poor concept when they were made, and haven't improved much. If Tau wanted snipers, they should have just bolted Rail Rifles to them. Now those would be an interesting unit.
They have one of the best sniper weapons in the game
Uhh... 48" Rapid Fire AP5 does not make one of the best sniper weapons in the game. The Vindicare called, it wants it's title back.
One of. I never claimed it was the best, just that it is one of the better. Compare it to the basic sniper rifle. 48" vs 36", AP5 vs AP6, Rapid fire vs heavy 1. It's a damn good sniper weapon.
move and shoot, JSJ,
The Marksman can't, which severely limits the utility of these.
Considering that you'll be cover-camping most of the time, it's not such a big concern. And they can still move and shoot even when he doesn't.
If sniper drones could be taken in any other unit, they'd be amazing. Having a unit on their own isn't that bad.
Their only problem is they compete for HS slots.
Lots of simple solutions to fix these guys.
Let Pathfinders and Stealth Suit units have access to purchase them.
Or let a support unit with the marksman and three drones be purchased free of a FOC slot for each FW unit.
I feel like drones have the most variety, but ultimately tend to be the most restricted and under utilized.
They have one of the best sniper weapons in the game
Uhh... 48" Rapid Fire AP5 does not make one of the best sniper weapons in the game. The Vindicare called, it wants it's title back.
move and shoot, JSJ,
The Marksman can't, which severely limits the utility of these.
I think Sniper Drone Teams were a poor concept when they were made, and haven't improved much. If Tau wanted snipers, they should have just bolted Rail Rifles to them. Now those would be an interesting unit.
They originally were iirc.
And could take 3 units in one slot (meaning you can spread those drones out more)
One of. I never claimed it was the best, just that it is one of the better. Compare it to the basic sniper rifle. 48" vs 36", AP5 vs AP6, Rapid fire vs heavy 1. It's a damn good sniper weapon.
Uhh. The basic sniper rifle is terrible. So terrible that an 8 point Kroot can take it. Giving it 12" of range and AP5 does very little. Rapid fire at 24" is kind of nice, but still doesn't many it any good. The entire team rapid firing doesn't reliably put a wound on a Wraithknight (one of the best targets for sniper weapons in the game).
I am hoping it is really toned down. Tau were too good in sixth edition. The number one thing they need to nerf are markerlights.
You don't know what you're talking about. Tau were good in 6th, so what. It's 7th, and Tau are sub-par compared to every new codex. Nerfing them would just make them unplayably bad compared to the rest of the new codicies. They need a buff to be competitive with the other 7th books. This is obvious to anyone paying attention to the tournament scene.
The Big-Detachment is the Tau Coalition. The basic Core formation is the Hunter Demi-Cadre (sorry, but Half-Cadre sounds silly). Stick together two Demi-Cadres for a full Hunter Cadre extra bonuses a'la SM.
I don't think this is a guaranteed thing. Daemonkin, and Necrons have only 1 core option (Slaughtercult and Reclamation Legion respectively), while Eldar have 3. And Marines are unique in their "put 2 of these together to get free stuff" bit. Why do you assume Tau will go that way?
Because on its own, fielding a full Hunter Cadre is pretty darn expensive (points wise), just like fielding a full Battle Company. So they have to split the Hunter Cadre into two less-costly halves.
Also as far as the naming structure, a Hunter Cadre is almost certainly the detachment level name. I hope every formation doesn't end with the same word. That would get highly annoying.
The Cadre is the basic large-scale Tau military unit, the perfect fit for Formations. Of course, some formations would have a different name like the Riptide Wing, but the Hunter Cadre will be a simple Formation and not the big Detachment.
Dozer Blades wrote: We don't need another OP army right now. If they are redesigned as a tier 2 army I'll be okay with it.
My Ultras have never lost to Tau, (Assault Marines, Assault and Devastator Centurions, METUL BAWKSES{
Nor my flashlight guys, (Beeeeeeiiinblaaaaayde)
Nor my Khorne, (Roll for Daemon Prince!!)
I've been waiting for the human auxiliaries since I restarted the hobby, I really love the idea of them in the fluff, hammerhead formations would be sweet too. I have two and a rule that lets me field 3 in a unit would make me gladly buy another.
Dozer Blades wrote: I am hoping it is really toned down. Tau were too good in sixth edition. The number one thing they need to nerf are markerlights.
....What? Games Workshop is trying to balance the game, so that no army is tier 1 or tier 2. They're doing that by building to a specific power level in 7th. Building Tau to anything less than that power level is just bad game design.
Dozer Blades wrote: I am hoping it is really toned down. Tau were too good in sixth edition. The number one thing they need to nerf are markerlights.
....What? Games Workshop is trying to balance the game, so that no army is tier 1 or tier 2. They're doing that by building to a specific power level in 7th. Building Tau to anything less than that power level is just bad game design.
There are two very important phrases in that comment, that fit together like hand in glove. Games Workshop and bad game design.
Fire warrior sqaud, for every fire warrior squad at 12 men the following support sqauds may be taken and do not count as a troops FOC selection, but do have objective secured.
I want to agree with that, but there already is a Heavy Support Riptide and a FA Riptide. Though I honestly don't see what makes the current Riptide stand out as "elite" compared to those two.
As long as we don't have a Riptide in the troop section I'm happy where they are at.
For them to Nerf the Riptide, my mate has three of them and they're a bitch to take down, even with Lychguard (Thats if they don't get blown to dust before they get there)
Destroyer67 wrote: For them to Nerf the Riptide, my mate has three of them and they're a bitch to take down, even with Lychguard (Thats if they don't get blown to dust before they get there)
Throw wraiths at 'em that should pretty much take them down or lock them down for a looong time (assuming we're fighting cheese with cheese)
Honestly I'd prefer them to not get a template with the IA.
I love the HBC when it's nova charged and honestly think the IA should just be made to rapid fire as well, maybe doubling the shots from 3-6 S8 AP2 with gets hot. Increasing the cost on it as well.
Savageconvoy wrote: Honestly I'd prefer them to not get a template with the IA.
I love the HBC when it's nova charged and honestly think the IA should just be made to rapid fire as well, maybe doubling the shots from 3-6 S8 AP2 with gets hot. Increasing the cost on it as well.
Take away gets hot from HBC. There's no reason for that.
There are sooooooo many things I want in a new Tau codex its not even funny, but Gue'vesa? How would a Tau army benefit from Human Auxillaries? They already lightly armored meatshields to hide behind that die in droves, called Kroot. I get that its the fluffy thing to do is to give the new Tau codex Gue'vesa but that is literally all it is. Why would you field them too? Would they just be guardsmen with pulse rifles and 4+ saves? That seems so unnecessary. Unless they could be fielded in squads bigger than 20 I wouldn't touch them in the new codex. Plus I don't know if you guys haven't noticed but I haven't seen many new units added to the 6th to 7th edition codex changes. I doubt they are going to field any new units for Tau, just change and add rules to existing units.
How would a Tau army benefit from Human Auxillaries?
Well, special weapons in troop choices, for one. Besides that, yeah, I pretty much agree with you.
I'd still like it better if the Fire Warrior units could get that, or if Pathfinders could go without Markerlights for a discount (7-8 pt), so you can use their special equipment better.
I would make human auxiliaries cheap as conscripts and allowed to be taken in squads larger than FW. Larger than Kroot even. I mean there are tons of humans. For some extra points you could give them all Pulsecarbines.
That's how I would do it. They can be played as a tar pit basically.
On Guevesa, id start with straight Astra Militarium as a base, then I'd upgrade their auto/lasguns to St 4, AP 6 to represent them firing 'Pulse rounds' like the Kroot, change up their grenade launchers to launch EMP and Photon Grenades instead of Krak and Frag. Mix some Tau and some Imperium special Weapons availability and allow unit upgrades to full Pulse Weapons and combat armour. Orders would be replaced with the ability to benefit from Markerlights and the Sgt could take some Tau specific upgrades.
Basically they would start off a point of so more than a guardsman mostly due to the better gun, and, when fully kitted out, be a point or so more than a Firewarriors due to better Melee ability.
That way you could really dial in the unit as cheap and expendable bullet catchers or make them Firewarriors who can carry special Weapons and know how to throw a punch.
It's hilarious how Tau players in this thread have themselves so thoroughly convinced that they should get a unit that's "Guardsmen Plus" at no downside.
It's hilarious how Tau players in this thread have themselves so thoroughly convinced that they should get a unit that's "Guardsmen Plus" at no downside.
It's hilarious how Tau players in this thread have themselves so thoroughly convinced that they should get a unit that's "Guardsmen Plus" at no downside.
No downside? They'd clearly be more points...
A single point difference for a gun that is a significant improvement, grenade launchers that are a significant improvement, and still allowing "some Imperium special weapons" while allowing for full Pulse weapons and a 4+ Carapace Armor save on basic Guardsmen.
They "lose" Orders in exchange for the ability to benefit from Markerlights(which only have to hit) and the Sergeant isn't restricted to the crap he has currently?
It's hilarious how Tau players in this thread have themselves so thoroughly convinced that they should get a unit that's "Guardsmen Plus" at no downside.
No downside? They'd clearly be more points...
A single point difference for a gun that is a significant improvement, grenade launchers that are a significant improvement, and still allowing "some Imperium special weapons" while allowing for full Pulse weapons and a 4+ Carapace Armor save on basic Guardsmen.
They "lose" Orders in exchange for the ability to benefit from Markerlights(which only have to hit) and the Sergeant isn't restricted to the crap he has currently?
Yeah. There's a real downside there.
You mean like how Tactical Marines are only one point more than CSM and gain ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads and access to the most broken gun type in the game (grav)?
It's hilarious how Tau players in this thread have themselves so thoroughly convinced that they should get a unit that's "Guardsmen Plus" at no downside.
No downside? They'd clearly be more points...
A single point difference for a gun that is a significant improvement, grenade launchers that are a significant improvement, and still allowing "some Imperium special weapons" while allowing for full Pulse weapons and a 4+ Carapace Armor save on basic Guardsmen.
They "lose" Orders in exchange for the ability to benefit from Markerlights(which only have to hit) and the Sergeant isn't restricted to the crap he has currently?
Yeah. There's a real downside there.
You mean like how Tactical Marines are only one point more than CSM and gain ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads and access to the most broken gun type in the game (grav)?
Yup, that's exactly what I mean.
Except in your haste to make a snarky comment, you failed to recognize the key problem with your comparison.
It would be more like:
how Tactical Marines are only one point more than CSM and gain ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads, upgrade their Bolters to S6 AP3 and access to the most broken gun type in the game (grav)?
Oh, and while we're at it?
Taking an Infantry Squad in a context like that is VASTLY different to the way the Guard work--which is requiring you to take a bloody Platoon in order to even take your "basic" Guardsmen.
It's hilarious how Tau players in this thread have themselves so thoroughly convinced that they should get a unit that's "Guardsmen Plus" at no downside.
No downside? They'd clearly be more points...
A single point difference for a gun that is a significant improvement, grenade launchers that are a significant improvement, and still allowing "some Imperium special weapons" while allowing for full Pulse weapons and a 4+ Carapace Armor save on basic Guardsmen.
They "lose" Orders in exchange for the ability to benefit from Markerlights(which only have to hit) and the Sergeant isn't restricted to the crap he has currently?
Yeah. There's a real downside there.
Who ever said such a gue squad will be a single PPM over IG squad?
And anyway, I want another gue unit. not light infantry-we got that covered by fire warriors, and disposables is rather covered by kroot, I want a freaking artillery unit.
IG is famous for artillery, gue are based on IG and tau lacks any artillery despite it fitting in their methods, I think the correlation is clear.
It's hilarious how Tau players in this thread have themselves so thoroughly convinced that they should get a unit that's "Guardsmen Plus" at no downside.
No downside? They'd clearly be more points...
A single point difference for a gun that is a significant improvement, grenade launchers that are a significant improvement, and still allowing "some Imperium special weapons" while allowing for full Pulse weapons and a 4+ Carapace Armor save on basic Guardsmen.
They "lose" Orders in exchange for the ability to benefit from Markerlights(which only have to hit) and the Sergeant isn't restricted to the crap he has currently?
Yeah. There's a real downside there.
I think Imay have not been clear when I described the base set up.
The base line Gue'vesa would be Guardsmen that cost more in exchange for a S 4, AP 6 guns, loses Orders, and being a part of the Tau codex, gets to take advantage of Markerlights tokens. I also like the rule the FW Gue'vesa had that gave Imperium Troops the equivalent of Hatred against them.
The grenade launchers would be a priced upgrade costing comparable to or more than a standard grenade launcher and would be one of a number of special weapons they could a limited quantity of.
Unit wide upgrades could give them Pulse Carbines and Carapace armour, but by the time the unit received those the individual models would cost more than Firewarriors.
I'm not proposing the same cost as Guardsmen for the base version and by the time the upgrades are done, you could take 2 guardsmen for every Gue'vesa.
Wolfblade wrote: I'd like to see a heavy fire warrior squad, think XV15 stealth suit but without the stealth feature.
Smaller squad size, more expensive, perhaps TL pulse rifle/carbines stock, 1 per 3 can take a rail rifle/ion rifle/TL flamer?
Obvious problems are balancing vs crisis suits, and what slot they'd be (imo).
I dont want more marines :/
I want to see more drones as weapons platforms for the normal warriors.
I also want to see more other casts being used.
like earth cast repair guys and special drone network kinda things. water cast.... advisers? spies?
that's a fair point, either way, some way to get specials weapons for FW squads would be nice (And I was assuming they'd be T3/4+, the armor would simply be helping support the weapons/ammo for said weapons).
First, I think Riptide should be move to LoW like the Wraithknight, to at least max it at 1 slot per CAD. (your mileage may vary, but most people I've played casually against play a 1CAD format sometime with 1 ally detachment, for fluff most of the time). I have the feeling that moving to LoW would help the balance in friendly non-competitive game at least. It would put him on par with the Wraithknight. So far, all the 'new' dex can manage to fight fair, so hopefully every faction will get their own power boost or LoW so the game is fun for everyone.
Second, I would like the choice of portable ion cannon and rail rifle in my Firewarriors. Pathfinder can do it, so should the FW. Put it heavy, and that would emphasis the gunline idea of Tau, which isn't an advantage in maelstorm like game (where you could still choose not to bring those heavy weapon, and maybe be more mobile). That would give more ''choice'' to the player, and choice is good when list building.
Third, I would like a balance between Rail Weapon and Smart Missile. Smart Missile shouldn't always be an auto-include in every list on the broadside. I don't yet how they should do it (I had 500pts of Tau for a while now, but I just recently went over 1500 and actually play Tau lol), but I'm sure they can find a solution.
After that, I don't personnaly agree with all the Mercs that some people think we should add. I don't want to play every faction of the Galaxy, I want to play Tau. Kroots and Vespid should be buff to actually fill gap in the Tau list, but I don't think we should add more, especially since Kroot have a ton of option. Maybe make every option viable and it would make some people happy.
My last point is: I heard about a Tau fortification; is that true? If it is, that's an awesome news. I'm tired of having to go Third Party whenever I want to get some faction oriented terrain. Gimme a Tau aegis, fort, trench whatever, I will take it!
oh and side note: Keep them as enjoyable as their are right now to play! lots of special rule, custumisable suit with systems and whatnot, marker lights... those are what make the Tau great and fun, don't mess it up!
If the rumors come true we're looking at a Riptide chassis with a focus on bringing the pain with missiles. It would be slightly larger and the LoW if I recall correctly. That would make the KX Supremacy Armor a superheavy walker the FW one. Leaving the Riptide where it is as an elite choice.
That's good too. It's just sad that I won't have the money to actually buy a new ''bigger'' riptide until probably Jan next year lol. Also, I heard about new Commander kit, new FW kit. Basicly, I will buy the codex, and that will probably be it for me lol.
PandaHero wrote: That's good too. It's just sad that I won't have the money to actually buy a new ''bigger'' riptide until probably Jan next year lol. Also, I heard about new Commander kit, new FW kit. Basicly, I will buy the codex, and that will probably be it for me lol.
Been saving up since I saw the pics of the new Tau Titan for FW, hoping to get the Codex, Data Cards and x2 of the new Riptides minimum when it drops! Potentially a Commander Suit and maybe some new Crisis Suits later after I get my FW Tau Titan!
Also I doubt it will happen but I would love the ability to run an army of Riptides and big Suits! I think it would really be cool to have games of Suits vs Imperial Knights but that's just me personally.
Savageconvoy wrote: Wait. So IK get a free pass but Tau deserve a lead pipe to the knee cap?
No, Imperial Knights are just broken and should not be within sniffing distance of a sub Apocalypse game.
Tau currently vomit firepower and Riptides rip just about everything apart. Hell, 50 man blob? Now you see it now you dont.
That's not saying much, a 50 man blob of t3 5+ dies to well, literally everything that has a high RoF.
Leman Russ squadron. Riptide and its gone
Dug in Infantry. Riptide and its gone
Vendetta. Riptide and its... Wait for it.... Gone
Providing you have MLs or pay 20 points for skyfire, sure, you might get a few hits. And what weapon are we talking about , IA I assume? Because that most likely will NOT kill a vendeta in one round of shooting, OR a LR squadron, now you're just blowing it out of proportion to stupidly huge amounts.
Savageconvoy wrote: Wait. So IK get a free pass but Tau deserve a lead pipe to the knee cap?
No, Imperial Knights are just broken and should not be within sniffing distance of a sub Apocalypse game.
Tau currently vomit firepower and Riptides rip just about everything apart. Hell, 50 man blob? Now you see it now you dont.
That's not saying much, a 50 man blob of t3 5+ dies to well, literally everything that has a high RoF.
Leman Russ squadron. Riptide and its gone
Dug in Infantry. Riptide and its gone
Vendetta. Riptide and its... Wait for it.... Gone
I have NO idea what rules you are using for your riptide, but if it's somehow capable of removing leman russ squadrons AT ALL, let alone insantly, its probably not the actual rules.
Ditto for infantry blobs. a riptide, even set up as HBC/SMS simply CANT kill more than 16, under perfect rolls of his side, and fail rolls on your side. (and assuming BS10 ignores cover and this setup against GEQ, he will sill kill only 13.3 on average-hardly the stuff of legends.)
As for vebdetta-if you happen to have a skyfire-oriented riptide, aiming at the rear, yes its pretty much point and click. same as any AA unit.
This is Tau we're talking about. They always have BS10, ignores cover, tank hunter, and nova always works 100% of the time. That and the enemy always deploys in the worst possible way.
That's the only way to really understand a lot of the complaints.
Sometimes it SEEMS like nova works 100% of the time. Basically, if you aren't an elite infantry list or a list dependent on light vehicles, the Tau aren't super scary.
The Riptide is a weird beast at the moment, really. As it's decribed in the fluff, it essentially a mobile fire base that provides suppressive fire for the mess of Fire Warriors and Kroot advancing around them. Their weapons are potent, but it isn't there the strength of the Riptide lies - It's in the strength of its force shield, and its mobility, which allows it to absorb hits from many angles.
If I were left to change the rules for the Riptide and were allowed to do whatever, I'd change the Armour Value to 3+ (Strong armour in fluff doesn't necessarily mean "Armour"), give it T 7 but remove a Wound. That would make it a bit more spindly, more resistant to what it's supposed to be able to resist (strong hits) and invulnerable against small fire. The 5++ and the rest of the Nova stuff is fine, too.
I do feel the two guns should be worked on. The Heavy Burst Cannon with its S 6 and AP 4 is fine, but I'd give it Pinning, too (being a cover fire weapon and all) - I can live with or without Gets Hot. The Ion Accelerator, tho... The Blast needs to go. It's just that simple, it's not even fluffy. Give it something heavy like S 8 AP 2 (S 9 should be for the Cannon), four shots regularly, and the Overcharge can be Small Blasts instead, but shoot two, with Barrage and Pinning. If the Nova Charge has to be Large Blast, then I can live with it, tho. Just only one shot, please.
Also, remove wargear that gives FNP to anything, really. It's just... No. It's not Tau. It's Chaos, Tyranids, not Tau. Tau gets their people out of a hotzone if something goes wrong, they don't overdrug them with morphine.
Honestly I wish the Kroot had some more units in the new release.
I honestly hate how everything besides base Kroot and one hound is almost worthless.
I want to see Shapers actually worth taking. I wish FW didn't drop their Kroot line, but I know they did because sales were bad. It's not like nobody had an interest in Kroot, it was just the rules were often beyond stupid.
Like a majority T3 6+ MC that dealt wounds to it's own unit.
Honestly I wish the Kroot had some more units in the new release.
I honestly hate how everything besides base Kroot and one hound is almost worthless.
I want to see Shapers actually worth taking. I wish FW didn't drop their Kroot line, but I know they did because sales were bad. It's not like nobody had an interest in Kroot, it was just the rules were often beyond stupid.
Like a majority T3 6+ MC that dealt wounds to it's own unit.
I hope Kroot\all the auxiliaries get their own supplement book. It fits with the format, and means purists like me can just have a Tau codex.
I'd change the Armour Value to 3+ (Strong armour in fluff doesn't necessarily mean "Armour"), give it T 7 but remove a Wound. That would make it a bit more spindly, more resistant to what it's supposed to be able to resist (strong hits) and invulnerable against small fire. The 5++ and the rest of the Nova stuff is fine, too.
So, this would be a massive nerf to the Riptide. You just made it vulnerable to S8 AP3, one of the most common combinations of S and AP in the game. Being wounded on a 3+, but only a 5+ save, and one less wound. They would be unplayably bad without some other compensatory buff.
I do feel the two guns should be worked on. The Heavy Burst Cannon with its S 6 and AP 4 is fine, but I'd give it Pinning, too (being a cover fire weapon and all) - I can live with or without Gets Hot. The Ion Accelerator, tho... The Blast needs to go. It's just that simple, it's not even fluffy. Give it something heavy like S 8 AP 2 (S 9 should be for the Cannon), four shots regularly, and the Overcharge can be Small Blasts instead, but shoot two, with Barrage and Pinning. If the Nova Charge has to be Large Blast, then I can live with it, tho. Just only one shot, please.
Except pinning is pretty worthless of a ability . Its useless on over 1/2 the armies played.
Also all ion weapons can be blasts so i dunno what you mean its not fluffy . Ion rifle , quad ion turret and ion cannon . Gets hot needs to go on the HBC or just 1 roll of it , I wouldn't and don't use the HBC nova charge because of that.
Something that came to me in a fever dream recently was the idea of melee drones.
Think of it this way, the Tau probably need to clear cut jungle and forest at times, so they probably have some kind of drone like thing to do it in an automated fashion with some kind of saw mechanism. Now clearly Tau isn't supposed to be great at close combat, and I don't think these drones should either, but here's where the mad genius of the Fire Cast comes in, and when the drones die they explode in bits of whirling saw parts and shrapnel creating a sort of fletching weapon. Yup, they're just units that bog down an enemy and aren't so much used to kill them directly in combat as they are to die and explode while taking out some models.
One way to make that work is having drones with flachette dischargers and basic drone stat lines. Giving each drone a chance to deal a S4 hit to each model in base contact before combat starts.
The Wise Dane wrote: Also, remove wargear that gives FNP to anything, really. It's just... No. It's not Tau. It's Chaos, Tyranids, not Tau. Tau gets their people out of a hotzone if something goes wrong, they don't overdrug them with morphine.
You aren't really into Tau fluff, are you? In one of the novels, Shadowsun herself spends days tripping on various drugs (including the Emperor's tears LOL) and it is heavily implied that such thing is pretty normal in the Fire Caste. If anything, the stimulant injector should be reworked to have a similar effect than the combat drugs from the Dark Eldar codex.
On the topic of Tau and FNP, I don't think it's above the Tau to drug their soldiers in order to achieve their goals. The Tau seem like a group that can easily view things in the form of "the ends justify the means" and while they'd prefer to pull their troops out given the chance, they also understand that sometimes extremes have to be taken in order to achieve their goals.
Basically they're not perfect, just advanced, sort of like the Protoss from Starcraft who are completely susceptible to going to awful extremes doing something they believe is right.
Just look at Commander Farsight, his greater good diverged from that of the general Tau force and so her broke off in his own little way, but isn't corrupt or evil as far as I can tell. Heck, even part of Shadowsun's fluff is that An'vu views her as too much of an indoctrinated pawn to ever rebel against whatever he's doing. It would actually be kind of interesting to see her get some fluff in the way of realising that.
I get that Tau do use combat drugs, but FNP? So they have the same kind of ability to shrug off hits in the same manner as Plague Marines and Necrons? It doesn't really make that kind of sense...
Tau are not wussies. They just don't prefer to fight in melee. Also the chips that burn out brains when removed so they can be used elsewhere? Yeah I could totally see the Tau using stim injectors with long term consequences for their pilots. Maybe not short or mid though.
And tau will willingly sacrifice their lives and wellbeing if it's for the greater good. Those of us who played their second codex might remember a little something called the fail safe detonator.
Gamgee wrote: Tau are not wussies. They just don't prefer to fight in melee. Also the chips that burn out brains when removed so they can be used elsewhere? Yeah I could totally see the Tau using stim injectors with long term consequences for their pilots. Maybe not short or mid though.
Yeah, there's a lot of that in the new codex it seems. The energy source for the new ion rifle that pathfinders got slowly kills the wielder, apparently. And obviously there's the riptide whose experimental reactor can kill the pilot.
But the idea of Tau using stims that make the user more resilient to pain? No, that's crazy, Tau would never do that. Meanwhile Marines can get FNP and become just as resilient as Necrons or Plague Marines just by being really angry and that somehow makes more sense.
Most of what i want for the new dex wont happen because its not a 150 dollar single model kits.
- Kroot HQ - Plastic Knarloc riders with rules that dont suck
- Plastic Tetras ( not really a detailed kit and FW has turned over other kits from the line to GW prime before)
- A cheaper transport that holds 6 infantry based on a piranha chassis.
strictly rules stuff
- move drones to troops, but do not give them ob sec.
- give drones something like fearless, low level AI maybe auto run if there is 1 member standing.
- give kroot pistols, i will even take a gakky 8 inch range pistol but come on.
- give the option back to tau tanks to upgrade to fast skimmer. all those fancy turrets FW made for Taros became turds when that wargear got removed.
- crisis suits are relentless but broadsides are not? maybe fix that.
I'm honestly worried that if the rumored new crisis suit kit is true 1) I hope its not hideous 2) hope it doesnt add a $10 price point per suit.
Actually, here's a thought, I hate the Hammer Head, despite it being a cool model. It just feels like most of the time it just does nothing, and I've seen it so many video battle reps that it's painful.
Here's my stupid thought of the moment, make the two drones able to be heavy rail rifles, then they can at least get three super strong shots at a long range as opposed to one. I mean I might be wrong, but it would be nice to see the Hammer Head not just have four shots a game :/.
Gamgee wrote: All the rail weapons need some major help.
Second that - I think D is the most likely.
I'd personally like to see a special rule that makes rail weapons unique as opposed to simply making any of them D weapons. I've always liked the idea that rail weapons have the chance to hit everything in a line from the shooter to the maximum range of the weapon. Maybe reducing S and AP as it hit different targets along the way.
I would be fine with HH rail guns being strength D if the point cost went up. I don't like the easy access of ranged D weapons in any of the lists, and since I'd like to see vechilces come in squads for Tau, I don't want 9 strength D shots to become the new norm and something else for people to whine about when they see Tau on the table.
Nocturus wrote: I would be fine with HH rail guns being strength D if the point cost went up. I don't like the easy access of ranged D weapons in any of the lists, and since I'd like to see vechilces come in squads for Tau, I don't want 9 strength D shots to become the new norm and something else for people to whine about when they see Tau on the table.
Maybe it's a case where what makes sense has to bow to balance? But they've neutered the vehicle damage table so much that I'm not sure how else to model the HH rail gun. Maybe STR 10 armor bane AP 0; it gets+3 the result roll? But then the WK is just going to laugh off your huge weapons.
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Savageconvoy wrote: The Hammerhead seems like an easy fix. But what about the rest?
I can't even figure out what role the rail rifle is supposed to have.
Me, neither. Maybe just give it armor bane and call it. It would still be vastly inferior to S7 spam though because 7th ed says any and all mid STR spam is godly. Marines crumble before you, transports, most MCs. It's just so good.
I can't believe people are still so sore over the riptide.
Come on guys, it's been more than 2 years now, and they already nerfed them. Do you really find them to be so problematic?
The only change I believe they should get is to limit their JSJ ability a little bit. This would make fighting them with other shooty armies less frustrating.
Railrifles need to get a little better, or have better supporting weapons (or more railrifles) on broadside suits to make them more competitive against missilesides.
Savageconvoy wrote: The Hammerhead seems like an easy fix. But what about the rest?
I can't even figure out what role the rail rifle is supposed to have.
The Rail Rifle carried by Pathfinders is an AMAZING long range MEQ eraser. Problem is, it comes on pathfinders which are better used for markerlights, AND it makes pathfinders something like 21 or 26 points a piece. It's a great concept, but not delievered into the game well. If they would allow some kind of pathfinder "support" squad to be taken as a troop choice, but not allow it to have markerlights, it would be an intresting concept to try out squads of pathfinders with rail rifles sniping MEQs. Maybe one of the formations we get in the new book will make that fully or possible of being done.
Big Blind Bill wrote: I can't believe people are still so sore over the riptide.
Come on guys, it's been more than 2 years now, and they already nerfed them. Do you really find them to be so problematic?
The only change I believe they should get is to limit their JSJ ability a little bit. This would make fighting them with other shooty armies less frustrating.
Railrifles need to get a little better, or have better supporting weapons (or more railrifles) on broadside suits to make them more competitive against missilesides.
Yeah, I do. They are too immortal for their price and their weapon completely makes elite infantry not in transport practically unplayable. 2+ armor MCs shouldn't exist. I stand by this. It's too much and has contributed to the awful arms race in 40K. Like with BA, I'm so glad I bothered to give my guys FNP with this HQ choice over here. They are all vaporized anyway by a gun I can't get off the table! Glad I spent those points.
They are too immortal for their price and their weapon completely makes elite infantry not in transport practically unplayable.
Their durability is high, but their damage output is no different from a leman russ once you take the markerlights out.
If their JSJ was limited and people could actually get their guns on target more of the time then they would be more manageable.
As it is though almost all armies can deal with them in some way or another.
But in practice, their output is MUCH higher than a Leman Russ. A melta drop cripples a Russ. Riptide laughs it off. A single lascannon hit that causes "shaken" on the Russ turns off the big gun. Or it can destroy the big gun. Single lascannon hit means nothing to the Riptide. Basically, the Riptide can't be suppressed and the Russ can. That's on top of JSJ shenanigans. The Russ is so SLOW. And the Russ has no access to ignore cover. Some jinking FNP bikers heading towards a Russ squad is bad, bad, news. Riptide don't care. Riptide might even win the CC because T6 2+ armor is amazing.
Imperial heavy weapons are miserable at engaging the Riptide. Which means we have to use high ROF special weapons. Which means falling all over ourselves trying to get with 12" or 18" of this thing. It's just a total nightmare. Still.
If stealth suits got invisibility or hard to hit constantly they would be broken.
No what Tau need are squadrons like SM (hammerheads & skyrays) and to balance out the riptide by either 1) making it a LoW and gargant or 2) reducing its Armor save to 3+ or its toughness to 5.
There is no reason Tau units nees the best of every world involving shooting with the capabilities they have in avoiding their so called only weakness, being melee
Many, many times in this game, my riptides have splatted a Daemon Prince with 1 hit while smashing. This IS a game of luck lest we forgot. The more guns you fire, the less of a chance you have at getting into melee, the less fun it is for any melee oriented army or any jack of all trades army. Lest we forget what Eldar are like and have release Tau 6ed all over again and Tau players never getting games ever again
Remove split fire, simply weapons systems, remove fnp on riptides as an option, remove covering fire in favor is full balistics overwatch.
What I like about the Hammer Head is that it's actually kind of cheap in points, in theory, but because it only has one weapon it's kind of weak. Also, it's almost the cost of two Broadsides, which isn't good either since it can't really compete with them.
Like I said, my fix would be to just swap out the two drones with two Broadside Heavy Rail Rifles, giving it the power of a Predator, where it has a super strong main weapon and then two very strong secondary weapons. It would also essentially triple the power of the Hammer Head and make it in line with taking two Broadsides as both have about the same points.
Tinkrr wrote: What I like about the Hammer Head is that it's actually kind of cheap in points, in theory, but because it only has one weapon it's kind of weak. Also, it's almost the cost of two Broadsides, which isn't good either since it can't really compete with them.
Like I said, my fix would be to just swap out the two drones with two Broadside Heavy Rail Rifles, giving it the power of a Predator, where it has a super strong main weapon and then two very strong secondary weapons. It would also essentially triple the power of the Hammer Head and make it in line with taking two Broadsides as both have about the same points.
I still don't have a problem with SMS on the Hammer Head, just give us back our target locks on them so we can fire it at a different target.
Nocturus wrote: I would be fine with HH rail guns being strength D if the point cost went up. I don't like the easy access of ranged D weapons in any of the lists, and since I'd like to see vechilces come in squads for Tau, I don't want 9 strength D shots to become the new norm and something else for people to whine about when they see Tau on the table.
Maybe it's a case where what makes sense has to bow to balance? But they've neutered the vehicle damage table so much that I'm not sure how else to model the HH rail gun. Maybe STR 10 armor bane AP 0; it gets+3 the result roll? But then the WK is just going to laugh off your huge weapons.
Said it before elsewhere, saying it again here:
Armourbane shouldn't just be an additional D6 for Armor Penetration. It should also be causing D6(or D3) Wounds on MCs/GMCs.
It's a major issue I've noticed in Skitarii for their Transauranic Arquebus, but it applies elsewhere as well.
Nocturus wrote: I would be fine with HH rail guns being strength D if the point cost went up. I don't like the easy access of ranged D weapons in any of the lists, and since I'd like to see vechilces come in squads for Tau, I don't want 9 strength D shots to become the new norm and something else for people to whine about when they see Tau on the table.
Maybe it's a case where what makes sense has to bow to balance? But they've neutered the vehicle damage table so much that I'm not sure how else to model the HH rail gun. Maybe STR 10 armor bane AP 0; it gets+3 the result roll? But then the WK is just going to laugh off your huge weapons.
Said it before elsewhere, saying it again here:
Armourbane shouldn't just be an additional D6 for Armor Penetration. It should also be causing D6(or D3) Wounds on MCs/GMCs.
It's a major issue I've noticed in Skitarii for their Transauranic Arquebus, but it applies elsewhere as well.
redleger wrote: I would just like to have the Broadsides be able to move and not snap fire. They are currenly only infantry so every time I need to move them all my missles are snap firing. Bring back the stabilizers from last edition as an upgrade even. or based on size, make them MCs so they are relentless.
Nope I'd hate this, broadsides have a hell of a lot of nasty shooting, moving and snap firing balances them out, if they had a 3+ 5++ and slow and purposeful I wouldn't mind, the heavy armour could just be the 5++
redleger wrote: I would just like to have the Broadsides be able to move and not snap fire. They are currenly only infantry so every time I need to move them all my missles are snap firing. Bring back the stabilizers from last edition as an upgrade even. or based on size, make them MCs so they are relentless.
Nope I'd hate this, broadsides have a hell of a lot of nasty shooting, moving and snap firing balances them out, if they had a 3+ 5++ and slow and purposeful I wouldn't mind, the heavy armour could just be the 5++
The problem is they made the model for the Broadside as something definitely different in mind then the rules completely got changed and don't reflect the model. You have a model that costs as much as a dread to purchase, is the size of a dread, is mounted on a dread sized base and somehow is still T4.
I think they should have gone with a completely revamped statline and go from there. I'd prefer them be walkers with nasty weapons and a decent invul save. Or at least that is what I always imagined the "generator" on the back was for.
I'd go with 11/11/10 5++ 60pts with railgun, 80 with hymp and a Walker, that would solve the move and shoot issue as it would be a Walker, it would also do away with yet another useless rule add on allowing it to fire all weapons as it's a Walker.
Savageconvoy wrote: The problem is they made the model for the Broadside as something definitely different in mind then the rules completely got changed and don't reflect the model. You have a model that costs as much as a dread to purchase, is the size of a dread, is mounted on a dread sized base and somehow is still T4.
I think they should have gone with a completely revamped statline and go from there. I'd prefer them be walkers with nasty weapons and a decent invul save. Or at least that is what I always imagined the "generator" on the back was for.
Think you mean termie base, and iirc don't they cost nearly as much as a cent (10pt less if cents have grav cannons, and broadsides have a 5pt system. Is move + shoot any weapon worth 10 points a model? feth yes.)
move and shoot for a 10pt increase is not unreasonable imo, especially if they have HRR (which desperately need a buff, maybe make them salvo 2/1 or something if they don't get relentless/SnP)
The broadside needs a total remake, with a T5 3W 2+ statline, if only to not make it a walker (as walkers are, by nature of front AV combat, too good in CC for tau)
It needs to be a mini MC for that model.
The HYMP needs to be less efficient, this is easily obtained if the model's new statline comes with a higher pricetag while the HYMP remains the same, as it removes the spamming.
The HHR needs to be better, FAR better. assuming the new body is a 80 point body, the HRR can easily be back to be a S10AP1 gun. (the railgun on the hammerhead will naturally be more)
BoomWolf wrote: The broadside needs a total remake, with a T5 3W 2+ statline, if only to not make it a walker (as walkers are, by nature of front AV combat, too good in CC for tau)
It needs to be a mini MC for that model.
The HYMP needs to be less efficient, this is easily obtained if the model's new statline comes with a higher pricetag while the HYMP remains the same, as it removes the spamming.
The HHR needs to be better, FAR better. assuming the new body is a 80 point body, the HRR can easily be back to be a S10AP1 gun. (the railgun on the hammerhead will naturally be more)
No... just no.
Broadsides don't need T5 AND 3 wounds. They already have an abundance of wounds in the form of drones. I could see them becoming T5, but they don't need another wound to go with it.
The problem with HYMP is not (only) it's cost, but the fact that you don't need any other weapon because missile pods do just about everything everything from dealing with infantry blods, killing MC to cracking vehicles.
Bumping it's price up will not make people use other weapons because they don't need other weapons. In order for HYMP (and regular pods for that) not to be an auto-take on everything save a few melta-suits, you need to make an opportunity where HYMP are not the go-to weapon and create a demand for other weapons.
In order to do that, I suggest dropping their strength by 1. Being Str6, they will retain their use as anti-infantry weapon, wounding most infantry on 2's, effectively changing nothing. However, against most MC's, they would wound on 4's instead of 3's. Making them good at dealing damage to them, but not almost killing them in a single turn because of the sheer number of wounds inflicted. Really the only things being able to sustain a volley from a broadside team with drones without being on the brink of death is a NDK, a Tyrannofex or a Riptide.
The biggest and most important change would be to vehicles. Str6 is good for taking out light armoured vehicles, but it doesn't guarantee the "point & click" that a massive amount of Str7 would. Rail rifles and friends would have to be taken in order to get rid of AV 13 and up.
Bumping the price up WOULD mean its not useful against infantry blobs though, due to the fact you cant shoot as many shots per point any more.
Pulse weapons would need to be increased to get rip of hordes.
Why do tau need to have S6 on their heavy battlesuits, when basic infantry pack S5? the missile pods will not be relegated as anti-infantry, they would be completely dropped. the only reason pods are good to begin with, is that they are at least decent against nearly anything-if they stop being so (and S6 means they did as AV12 is barely scratched, AV13 is untouchable and MCs with T7 or Sv2 are also beyond reasonable wounding rates, even T5 would get a large bump in survival rates, and T5 isn't special at all.)
The fact the price per model goes up, would mean, by default, that the "point and click removal" of light vehicles and the damage to MCs would also be decrease, because you simply would not afford as many guns on the field.
The only problem with the pods is how easy it is to spam them, not the power of the individual pod. once you make the base suit more expensive, the number of guns available at a point value drop. the guns will be harder to take down, but they won't kill stuff as quickly.
As for why T5 3W, because you seriously can't justify a broadside model to have only the durability of a centurion/nurgle oblit. its far bigger and sturdier than both, and should be reflected in the model.
And every bit of durability you sink into it, means a higher pricetag is acceptable-making the drop in firepower per point even bigger, and further solving the S7 spam issue by making it simply not spammable.
Its simple design really, I don't understand why you fail to see it.
I want the Tau codex to be able to take Necrons as battle brothers.
Since the Necrons created the Tau to be bodies for their minds.
Or so my headcannon says.
Bring the two shootiest armies together at last for a devastating amount of butthurt.
BoomWolf wrote: As for why T5 3W, because you seriously can't justify a broadside model to have only the durability of a centurion/nurgle oblit. its far bigger and sturdier than both, and should be reflected in the model.
BoomWolf wrote: As for why T5 3W, because you seriously can't justify a broadside model to have only the durability of a centurion/nurgle oblit. its far bigger and sturdier than both, and should be reflected in the model.
It is reflected in its 2+ armour save.
But Oblits already has that and 2 W, plus 5++, so they are actually even stronger than a Broadside defensively. Plus, do we really want more 2+ in the game, when we have the option to do something different with them? We can't rightfully do that with Oblits.
BoomWolf wrote: As for why T5 3W, because you seriously can't justify a broadside model to have only the durability of a centurion/nurgle oblit. its far bigger and sturdier than both, and should be reflected in the model.
It is reflected in its 2+ armour save.
But Oblits already has that and 2 W, plus 5++, so they are actually even stronger than a Broadside defensively.
Well, the Obliterators are wearing a small (and better) Broadside armor, so this sounds alright.
BoomWolf wrote: As for why T5 3W, because you seriously can't justify a broadside model to have only the durability of a centurion/nurgle oblit. its far bigger and sturdier than both, and should be reflected in the model.
It is reflected in its 2+ armour save.
But Oblits already has that and 2 W, plus 5++, so they are actually even stronger than a Broadside defensively.
Well, the Obliterators are wearing a small (and better) Broadside armor, so this sounds alright.
But they're about the size of a Terminator, who has T 4 and one Wound. The problem isn't with Oblits, the problem is that Broadsides doesn't fit with with their current rules - Oblits were only mentioned because they have the same stats, but are clearly in different leagues.
Why are we comparing one of the worst dex (Chaos) and Tau units in a discussion about what we would want to see in the next Tau update? Lol
Comparing oblits to broadsides is like trying to hammer a nail with your forehead.
Tau by default, are/ is a poorly conceived and thought out dex unit to unit simply because they (being GW) forwent traditional lore with the dex in favor if blatantly powering up the units within the dex to absurd levels. The riptide is a prime example.
How can they sell riptides at the beginning of 6th? Well obviously the giant mechanical robot should be a MC because walkers are just inheritently terrible, so lets make it (at the time) one of the best MCs for its cost in points and effectiveness via statlines in the game. Realistically it should have been an Av13/12/11 walker by all rights with 5 HP and it should never have had access to FNP.
When you try to compare broadsides to Oblits you make yourself just seem stupid (no offense) oblits are literally 2 terminators rolled into one, with 2 wounds and the mainstay 2+/5++ they are stock 70 ppm and literally only good for termicide missions where 3-5 terminators would have been counter productive. Broadsides also have a 2+, that's basically where it ends in similarity.
Davor wrote: I haven't done Tau yet, but I was going to when the new codex came out. I didn't see any of those Humans in the Tau empire, so I never bothered.
I really want to see a Tau Emperium. Not just Vespids and a Kroot but actual Vespids in more than one role, Kroot in more than one roll, and actual Tauhuman faction.
This is my personal choice. I know for a lot Tau players don't want this, but I would start collecting Tau if they did this.
BoomWolf wrote: As for why T5 3W, because you seriously can't justify a broadside model to have only the durability of a centurion/nurgle oblit. its far bigger and sturdier than both, and should be reflected in the model.
It is reflected in its 2+ armour save.
But Oblits already has that and 2 W, plus 5++, so they are actually even stronger than a Broadside defensively.
Well, the Obliterators are wearing a small (and better) Broadside armor, so this sounds alright.
But they're about the size of a Terminator, who has T 4 and one Wound. The problem isn't with Oblits, the problem is that Broadsides doesn't fit with with their current rules - Oblits were only mentioned because they have the same stats, but are clearly in different leagues.
The problem is that people genuinely believe that there is something about the model which doesn't fit with the current rules and use fluff to justify it.
Fluffwise, Terminators shrug off everything short of tank rounds. That's not the case, ruleswise.
Fluffwise, Plasma weaponry is incredibly rare. That's not the case, ruleswise.
And quite frankly? Crisis Suits are undersized right now.
Look at page 70-71 in the Tau Empire Codex. You're looking at a difference of a height of a few feet between the generic XV8 Crisis Suits and the XV8-05 Enforcer Battlesuit variant, which is pretty close in height to the XV88 Broadside.
The Broadside, in turn, is wider and bulkier.
GoliothOnline wrote: Why are we comparing one of the worst dex (Chaos) and Tau units in a discussion about what we would want to see in the next Tau update? Lol
Comparing oblits to broadsides is like trying to hammer a nail with your forehead.
Tau by default, are/ is a poorly conceived and thought out dex unit to unit simply because they (being GW) forwent traditional lore with the dex in favor if blatantly powering up the units within the dex to absurd levels. The riptide is a prime example.
How can they sell riptides at the beginning of 6th? Well obviously the giant mechanical robot should be a MC because walkers are just inheritently terrible, so lets make it (at the time) one of the best MCs for its cost in points and effectiveness via statlines in the game. Realistically it should have been an Av13/12/11 walker by all rights with 5 HP and it should never have had access to FNP.
When you try to compare broadsides to Oblits you make yourself just seem stupid (no offense) oblits are literally 2 terminators rolled into one, with 2 wounds and the mainstay 2+/5++ they are stock 70 ppm and literally only good for termicide missions where 3-5 terminators would have been counter productive. Broadsides also have a 2+, that's basically where it ends in similarity.
You completely missed the point.
I'm not comparing to oblits on the POWER level, there is no question that HYMP broadsides are stronger than oblits.
The comparison is on a MODEL base, and the broadside is the far greater, hulking and menacing model of the two, yet the two share a statline. scratch that, the oblit has the superior statline, as he had higher WS, BS and I and only lower in S.
And that's before you enter nurgle oblits, who are basically the same size, who are even tougher than the broadsides.
Its not healthy for the GAME that the model has no indication to the capabilities of the model. players, especially new players, expect the big nasty stuff to BE big and nasty. as long as the broadside is so towering over oblits, centurions and the likes-they SHOULD be tougher, more powerful and generally a bigger threat.
I'm not saying they need to be BUFFED, but CHANGED. the increase in stats need to also come with increase in costs, making each individual broadside be more, yet matter more.
Yes, you may argue that the oblits fluffwise can tank shots from here to narnia, but then again the broadside fluffwise takes down leman russes with a single shot , and that obviously not happening.
But from a design perspective, the bigger model-should be the stronger and the more it should cost.
The fact the broadside isn't far above the oblit when you compare the models is absurd, the fact he's even cheaper is outright silly. the broadside is bigger than a dreadnought, he should be in THAT pricerange and the power level to match.
BoomWolf wrote: As for why T5 3W, because you seriously can't justify a broadside model to have only the durability of a centurion/nurgle oblit. its far bigger and sturdier than both, and should be reflected in the model.
It is reflected in its 2+ armour save.
But Oblits already has that and 2 W, plus 5++, so they are actually even stronger than a Broadside defensively.
Well, the Obliterators are wearing a small (and better) Broadside armor, so this sounds alright.
But they're about the size of a Terminator, who has T 4 and one Wound. The problem isn't with Oblits, the problem is that Broadsides doesn't fit with with their current rules - Oblits were only mentioned because they have the same stats, but are clearly in different leagues.
The Obliterator and the Broadside are the same league. They are both heavy infantry tasked with fire support. The Broadside is bigger because fluff-wise, the Tau can't produce something like the Fleshmetal+Obliterator Virus combo, or even something like the simple Terminator Armor - the Broadside is the best they can do.
BoomWolf wrote: As for why T5 3W, because you seriously can't justify a broadside model to have only the durability of a centurion/nurgle oblit. its far bigger and sturdier than both, and should be reflected in the model.
It is reflected in its 2+ armour save.
But Oblits already has that and 2 W, plus 5++, so they are actually even stronger than a Broadside defensively.
Well, the Obliterators are wearing a small (and better) Broadside armor, so this sounds alright.
But they're about the size of a Terminator, who has T 4 and one Wound. The problem isn't with Oblits, the problem is that Broadsides doesn't fit with with their current rules - Oblits were only mentioned because they have the same stats, but are clearly in different leagues.
The Obliterator and the Broadside are the same league. They are both heavy infantry tasked with fire support. The Broadside is bigger because fluff-wise, the Tau can't produce something like the Fleshmetal+Obliterator Virus combo, or even something like the simple Terminator Armor - the Broadside is the best they can do.
Disagree on Terminator Armour. They have 2+ armour all over too, in bigger and more mobile suits, with more guns and with the option to get better defensive equipment.
BoomWolf wrote: As for why T5 3W, because you seriously can't justify a broadside model to have only the durability of a centurion/nurgle oblit. its far bigger and sturdier than both, and should be reflected in the model.
It is reflected in its 2+ armour save.
But Oblits already has that and 2 W, plus 5++, so they are actually even stronger than a Broadside defensively.
Well, the Obliterators are wearing a small (and better) Broadside armor, so this sounds alright.
But they're about the size of a Terminator, who has T 4 and one Wound. The problem isn't with Oblits, the problem is that Broadsides doesn't fit with with their current rules - Oblits were only mentioned because they have the same stats, but are clearly in different leagues.
The Obliterator and the Broadside are the same league. They are both heavy infantry tasked with fire support. The Broadside is bigger because fluff-wise, the Tau can't produce something like the Fleshmetal+Obliterator Virus combo, or even something like the simple Terminator Armor - the Broadside is the best they can do.
Disagree on Terminator Armour. They have 2+ armour all over too, in bigger and more mobile suits, with more guns and with the option to get better defensive equipment.
There are only two models in the whole codex with 2+ armor: the Broadside and the Riptide. There is also the experimental Iridium Armor. The Broadside earns its armor save by being almost twice as big as a Terminator, essentially doing the same with more... only without being able to compensate weapon recoil or to teleport. The Riptide has a 2+ armor because it is leagues above the Terminator Armor.
-Increase the cost of the Ion Accelerator by 15-20 points, otherwise its perfectly fine especially when compared to other MC's such as the Grey Knight Dreadknight (same armor save and invulnerable base). Even then there is plenty nowadays, especially in the Imperial Armies that absolutely make a mockery of it even with its high durability.
Broadside:
-Increase to Toughness 5
-TL-Heavy Rail Rifle stays the same (S8 AP1) since it has access to Skyfire however make it Heavy 2 Twin Linked instead of just a single shot. Also give Broadsides Relentless and Slow and Purposeful so they can actually move somewhat (random movement is not maneuverable at all)
I really think the solution to the TL-Heavy Rail Rifle is to make it Savlo 2/1. This gives the Broadside mobility with that weapon without making the HYMP even more amazing by putting it on a platform that can move and shoot with it at full BS.
The broadside doesn't need Relentless or Slow and Purposeful as it was designed to be a more static element of the army, otherwise they would have made it jetpack infintry like every other battle suit.
The HYMP needs to be a 10 point upgrade at least, maybe 15 as it is simply more useful than the standard HRR. While that upgrade won't eliminate people using them, it will reduce the number of support units they have. Every 10 points spent on a HYMP is another markerlight not on the table.
I would also make it so that Broadsides could take Sniper Drones as a Drone option.
HYMP needs to be part of a "loadout" upgrade which includes the Plasma Rifles rather than allowing you to upgrade the HRRs to HYMP and leave the SMS by itself.
Like many have already said, I would like to see some new/better Kroot and Vespids, as well as some Gue'vesa (after all, humans on some worlds have joined the Greater Good). Some stuff to make vehicles better would be nice too, as well as buffs to Railrifle Broadsides. Also, make the Special Characters cooler, most of them are not very good right now (looking at you Aun'shi!). I've also always wondered why Fire Warriors could not take special weapons like Space Marines, but the more fragile Pathfinders can. Maybe they should do something about this too. And last, but not least, overhaul the flyers! I don't think they are bad models, but gamewise they suck right now (possibly worse than 6th edition DA flyers).
Fluffwise, it's because the Pathfinders aren't going to be right in the thick of fighting so they can be given experimental equipment without concern that they might be killed or unable to fulfill their role during a battle.
Fluffwise as well, it's because Fire Warriors aren't Space Marines. Space Marines expect to be operating by themselves with the potentiality of no support for extended periods of time.
Fire Warriors are one part of an intricate battleplan and they go into combat secure in the knowledge that their commanders have devoted them the appropriate resources for the battle ahead.
Kanluwen wrote: Fluffwise, it's because the Pathfinders aren't going to be right in the thick of fighting so they can be given experimental equipment without concern that they might be killed or unable to fulfill their role during a battle.
Fluffwise as well, it's because Fire Warriors aren't Space Marines. Space Marines expect to be operating by themselves with the potentiality of no support for extended periods of time.
Fire Warriors are one part of an intricate battleplan and they go into combat secure in the knowledge that their commanders have devoted them the appropriate resources for the battle ahead.
Fluffwise, pathfinders are more in the thick of things than fire warriors.
Fluffwise as well, guardsmen are not space marines either, and get special weapons all around despite being officially disposable.
Either a small point reduction on Stealth Suits or the invisibility rule that makes enemies WsBs 1 against them.
Tank squadrons with option for target lock upgrade on vehicles.
Broadsides to have either T5 or 3 wounds or both
As a joke.
Grav weapons to be worse against suits and vehicles since ours use anti grav technology to move and thrust.
BoomWolf wrote: As for why T5 3W, because you seriously can't justify a broadside model to have only the durability of a centurion/nurgle oblit. its far bigger and sturdier than both, and should be reflected in the model.
It is reflected in its 2+ armour save.
But Oblits already has that and 2 W, plus 5++, so they are actually even stronger than a Broadside defensively.
Well, the Obliterators are wearing a small (and better) Broadside armor, so this sounds alright.
But they're about the size of a Terminator, who has T 4 and one Wound. The problem isn't with Oblits, the problem is that Broadsides doesn't fit with with their current rules - Oblits were only mentioned because they have the same stats, but are clearly in different leagues.
The Obliterator and the Broadside are the same league. They are both heavy infantry tasked with fire support. The Broadside is bigger because fluff-wise, the Tau can't produce something like the Fleshmetal+Obliterator Virus combo, or even something like the simple Terminator Armor - the Broadside is the best they can do.
Disagree on Terminator Armour. They have 2+ armour all over too, in bigger and more mobile suits, with more guns and with the option to get better defensive equipment.
There are only two models in the whole codex with 2+ armor: the Broadside and the Riptide. There is also the experimental Iridium Armor. The Broadside earns its armor save by being almost twice as big as a Terminator, essentially doing the same with more... only without being able to compensate weapon recoil or to teleport. The Riptide has a 2+ armor because it is leagues above the Terminator Armor.
Incorrect, battlesuit size comes from the size and power of the weapons they carry. More than technological inferiority its biological. Ordinary tau are weaker than humans and while they could develop the muscle fiber bundle technology used to amplify a marines strength in power armor of any kind it wouldn't be enough on the frail tau physique. So instead they gain the strength mechanically. Which is why the size is needed. The dense nanocrystal armor they wear is also infinitely more lightweight than any power armor.
BoomWolf wrote: As for why T5 3W, because you seriously can't justify a broadside model to have only the durability of a centurion/nurgle oblit. its far bigger and sturdier than both, and should be reflected in the model.
It is reflected in its 2+ armour save.
But Oblits already has that and 2 W, plus 5++, so they are actually even stronger than a Broadside defensively.
Well, the Obliterators are wearing a small (and better) Broadside armor, so this sounds alright.
But they're about the size of a Terminator, who has T 4 and one Wound. The problem isn't with Oblits, the problem is that Broadsides doesn't fit with with their current rules - Oblits were only mentioned because they have the same stats, but are clearly in different leagues.
The Obliterator and the Broadside are the same league. They are both heavy infantry tasked with fire support. The Broadside is bigger because fluff-wise, the Tau can't produce something like the Fleshmetal+Obliterator Virus combo, or even something like the simple Terminator Armor - the Broadside is the best they can do.
Disagree on Terminator Armour. They have 2+ armour all over too, in bigger and more mobile suits, with more guns and with the option to get better defensive equipment.
There are only two models in the whole codex with 2+ armor: the Broadside and the Riptide. There is also the experimental Iridium Armor. The Broadside earns its armor save by being almost twice as big as a Terminator, essentially doing the same with more... only without being able to compensate weapon recoil or to teleport. The Riptide has a 2+ armor because it is leagues above the Terminator Armor.
Incorrect, battlesuit size comes from the size and power of the weapons they carry. More than technological inferiority its biological. Ordinary tau are weaker than humans and while they could develop the muscle fiber bundle technology used to amplify a marines strength in power armor of any kind it wouldn't be enough on the frail tau physique. So instead they gain the strength mechanically. Which is why the size is needed. The dense nanocrystal armor they wear is also infinitely more lightweight than any power armor.
No, the battlesuit size comes from technological inferiority. Tau metallurgy isn't advanced enough for the high-end stuff like adamantium, so they have to use lots of weaker materials to achieve the same level of protection. Maybe the nanocrystal is lighter than the adamantium, but the Tau has to apply multiple layers of nanocrystal where a single layer of adamantium would be enough. The Tau simply can't into micro-scaling, that's why the size - it has little to do with actual efficiency: with the Tau, bigger is not alwasy better when compared to the stuff of he other races.
Also, there's no fluff saying Tau are "weaker" than humans, as far as I know they're pretty comparable. If anything that's an assumption made by people who just don't know the fluff to try and explain their deficiency in close combat, or people just being donkey-caves.
BoomWolf wrote: Bumping the price up WOULD mean its not useful against infantry blobs though, due to the fact you cant shoot as many shots per point any more.
Pulse weapons would need to be increased to get rip of hordes.
Why do tau need to have S6 on their heavy battlesuits, when basic infantry pack S5? the missile pods will not be relegated as anti-infantry, they would be completely dropped. the only reason pods are good to begin with, is that they are at least decent against nearly anything-if they stop being so (and S6 means they did as AV12 is barely scratched, AV13 is untouchable and MCs with T7 or Sv2 are also beyond reasonable wounding rates, even T5 would get a large bump in survival rates, and T5 isn't special at all.)
The fact the price per model goes up, would mean, by default, that the "point and click removal" of light vehicles and the damage to MCs would also be decrease, because you simply would not afford as many guns on the field.
The only problem with the pods is how easy it is to spam them, not the power of the individual pod. once you make the base suit more expensive, the number of guns available at a point value drop. the guns will be harder to take down, but they won't kill stuff as quickly.
As for why T5 3W, because you seriously can't justify a broadside model to have only the durability of a centurion/nurgle oblit. its far bigger and sturdier than both, and should be reflected in the model.
And every bit of durability you sink into it, means a higher pricetag is acceptable-making the drop in firepower per point even bigger, and further solving the S7 spam issue by making it simply not spammable.
Its simple design really, I don't understand why you fail to see it.
I disagree entirely. Bumping up the price would not make other weapons a more viable pick. HYMP would still be THE weapon that does everything and people will take it just because it's TAC.
Tyranids almost rely solely on a single model that has 12 Str6 shots and a haywire flamer to deal with just about everything and it works because pentyrant is a succesfull list. I'll give credit where credit is due and it's not solely because of the weapon and the fact that it's a FMC helps a metric ton but still it's a proof of concept that Str 6 guns are viable to deal with anything short of vehicles.
The difference between their heavy weaponry and basic infantry weaponry is: better AP, greater range, higher strength and a higher number of shots.
If you increase the cost of the base suit, you're still not going to fix the problem that every suit is going to want a missile pod because it is just the better weapon out of those available.
I can totaly justify that a broadside has the durability of a Centurion or Obliterator. Bigger does not mean sturdier by any stretch of the imagination. If I make two sets of armor, one out of paper and the other out of steel, would the paper one provide better protection if I made it two times as thick as the steel one? I'm going to take a wild guess and say no it wouldn't.
And the fact of the matter is that things like Nurgle obliterators or Centurions are at their core Space marines, which have a godly amount of resistance compared to what is piloting the Broadside. Once you get through that armor plating, the guy inside the broadside is going to die VERY quickly. Nurgle obliterators can get half their body blown of and still live through it, because Nurgle. Centurions are essentially tanks (armor) built around what is already considered a walking tank (the space marine inside).
The broadside is most comparable to a Centurion. It's a guy in a vehicle-like suit of armor. Both give the pilot more resilience with the difference being that a Centurion is piloted by a lifeform that is magnitudes stronger and tougher than what's piloting a Broadside.
1 toughness is already considered a pretty big deal, it's the difference between a regular human and a space marine, suddenly giving a weak humanoid such as Tau more resilience and toughness than a space marine is crazy. And don't get me fething started on the Riptide because that thing is by ALL means imaginable a walker but that wouldn't have sold enough kits.
Going by your logic a Rhino should be nigh indestructable because it is bigger and thus sturdier than a Broadside (which in your opinion should be T5 3W), yet a Rhino is more fragile than a broadside.
Kanluwen wrote: Fluffwise, it's because the Pathfinders aren't going to be right in the thick of fighting so they can be given experimental equipment without concern that they might be killed or unable to fulfill their role during a battle.
Fluffwise as well, it's because Fire Warriors aren't Space Marines. Space Marines expect to be operating by themselves with the potentiality of no support for extended periods of time.
Fire Warriors are one part of an intricate battleplan and they go into combat secure in the knowledge that their commanders have devoted them the appropriate resources for the battle ahead.
Fluffwise, pathfinders are more in the thick of things than fire warriors.
Operating from concealed positions at the forefront of the fighting, with a Devilfish APC standing by for a fast exfiltration != "in the thick of things".
Being at the tip of the spear for operations is not the same as being at the tip of the spear for actual combat operations.
Fluffwise as well, guardsmen are not space marines either, and get special weapons all around despite being officially disposable.
And fluffwise, you would understand that the special weapons given to Guardsmen are churned out of factories in obscene numbers with no thoughts or care given to the craftsmanship and potential harmful effects the weapons could have on the Guardsmen assigned them.
BoomWolf wrote: As for why T5 3W, because you seriously can't justify a broadside model to have only the durability of a centurion/nurgle oblit. its far bigger and sturdier than both, and should be reflected in the model.
It is reflected in its 2+ armour save.
But Oblits already has that and 2 W, plus 5++, so they are actually even stronger than a Broadside defensively.
Well, the Obliterators are wearing a small (and better) Broadside armor, so this sounds alright.
But they're about the size of a Terminator, who has T 4 and one Wound. The problem isn't with Oblits, the problem is that Broadsides doesn't fit with with their current rules - Oblits were only mentioned because they have the same stats, but are clearly in different leagues.
The Obliterator and the Broadside are the same league. They are both heavy infantry tasked with fire support. The Broadside is bigger because fluff-wise, the Tau can't produce something like the Fleshmetal+Obliterator Virus combo, or even something like the simple Terminator Armor - the Broadside is the best they can do.
Disagree on Terminator Armour. They have 2+ armour all over too, in bigger and more mobile suits, with more guns and with the option to get better defensive equipment.
There are only two models in the whole codex with 2+ armor: the Broadside and the Riptide. There is also the experimental Iridium Armor. The Broadside earns its armor save by being almost twice as big as a Terminator, essentially doing the same with more... only without being able to compensate weapon recoil or to teleport. The Riptide has a 2+ armor because it is leagues above the Terminator Armor.
Incorrect, battlesuit size comes from the size and power of the weapons they carry. More than technological inferiority its biological. Ordinary tau are weaker than humans and while they could develop the muscle fiber bundle technology used to amplify a marines strength in power armor of any kind it wouldn't be enough on the frail tau physique. So instead they gain the strength mechanically. Which is why the size is needed. The dense nanocrystal armor they wear is also infinitely more lightweight than any power armor.
No, the battlesuit size comes from technological inferiority. Tau metallurgy isn't advanced enough for the high-end stuff like adamantium, so they have to use lots of weaker materials to achieve the same level of protection. Maybe the nanocrystal is lighter than the adamantium, but the Tau has to apply multiple layers of nanocrystal where a single layer of adamantium would be enough. The Tau simply can't into micro-scaling, that's why the size - it has little to do with actual efficiency: with the Tau, bigger is not alwasy better when compared to the stuff of he other races.
Not really. They have a substance comparable to adamanium, it's just not reasonable to outfit every broadside with it (keep in mind there are millions, if not hundreds of millions of broadsides, and probably less that 500,000 termies). It's also what they use in riptides, and is one of the slowing points for riptides (it's the only real thing that stops them from producing them at a much greater number). IT would be more correct to say, they do not have the recorces for it. Keep in mind, adimantite is rare in the imperium, and the imperium has pretty much limitless production possibility.
What they do have is Fio'tak (I think that's what it's called) that is comparable to cearmitite, but much lighter. That is the substance they use for more armour plating.
Sidstyler wrote:Also, there's no fluff saying Tau are "weaker" than humans, as far as I know they're pretty comparable. If anything that's an assumption made by people who just don't know the fluff to try and explain their deficiency in close combat, or people just being donkey-caves.
Yup. I think they are supposed to be slightly shorter (although I'm not sure exactly where that comes from), but nothing I knoe of says they are weaker, other than possibly the Imperial Guardsman's Uplifting Primer: Damocles Gulf Edition.
Kanluwen wrote: Fluffwise, it's because the Pathfinders aren't going to be right in the thick of fighting so they can be given experimental equipment without concern that they might be killed or unable to fulfill their role during a battle.
Fluffwise as well, it's because Fire Warriors aren't Space Marines. Space Marines expect to be operating by themselves with the potentiality of no support for extended periods of time.
Fire Warriors are one part of an intricate battleplan and they go into combat secure in the knowledge that their commanders have devoted them the appropriate resources for the battle ahead.
Fluffwise, pathfinders are more in the thick of things than fire warriors.
Operating from concealed positions at the forefront of the fighting, with a Devilfish APC standing by for a fast exfiltration != "in the thick of things".
Being at the tip of the spear for operations is not the same as being at the tip of the spear for actual combat operations.
Fluffwise as well, guardsmen are not space marines either, and get special weapons all around despite being officially disposable.
And fluffwise, you would understand that the special weapons given to Guardsmen are churned out of factories in obscene numbers with no thoughts or care given to the craftsmanship and potential harmful effects the weapons could have on the Guardsmen assigned them.
That's not how the Tau do things.
As far as I know, Plasmaguns, power weapons and so forth isn't really produced that much - It's rare heirlooms, given to skilled users.
AtoMaki wrote:
No, the battlesuit size comes from technological inferiority. Tau metallurgy isn't advanced enough for the high-end stuff like adamantium, so they have to use lots of weaker materials to achieve the same level of protection. Maybe the nanocrystal is lighter than the adamantium, but the Tau has to apply multiple layers of nanocrystal where a single layer of adamantium would be enough. The Tau simply can't into micro-scaling, that's why the size - it has little to do with actual efficiency: with the Tau, bigger is not alwasy better when compared to the stuff of he other races.
Not really. They have a substance comparable to adamanium, it's just not reasonable to outfit every broadside with it (keep in mind there are millions, if not hundreds of millions of broadsides, and probably less that 500,000 termies). It's also what they use in riptides, and is one of the slowing points for riptides (it's the only real thing that stops them from producing them at a much greater number). IT would be more correct to say, they do not have the recorces for it. Keep in mind, adimantite is rare in the imperium, and the imperium has pretty much limitless production possibility.
What they do have is Fio'tak (I think that's what it's called) that is comparable to cearmitite, but much lighter. That is the substance they use for more armour plating.
In fact, even the fluff for the Broadsides mention that the reason why the Broadside is so big is "moar armor":
Tau Codex wrote:In prototype production, it was quickly noticed that the new battlesuit could not avoid incoming fire, so further protective armour was added.
Or from the wiki, regarding the Fio'tak:
Battlesuit armour employing Fio'tak is shaped to deflect solid shot, and also has a liquid metal coating that reflects medium-grade laser fire. In some cases, such as that of the XV88 Broadside and XV104 Riptide Battlesuits, additional nano-layers of the material are added to upgrade the armour's thickness so that the protection it offers is even comparable to that of Tactical Dreadnought Armour.
It is really just a f*ckton of armor, IG/Ork-style.
AtoMaki wrote:
No, the battlesuit size comes from technological inferiority. Tau metallurgy isn't advanced enough for the high-end stuff like adamantium, so they have to use lots of weaker materials to achieve the same level of protection. Maybe the nanocrystal is lighter than the adamantium, but the Tau has to apply multiple layers of nanocrystal where a single layer of adamantium would be enough. The Tau simply can't into micro-scaling, that's why the size - it has little to do with actual efficiency: with the Tau, bigger is not alwasy better when compared to the stuff of he other races.
Not really. They have a substance comparable to adamanium, it's just not reasonable to outfit every broadside with it (keep in mind there are millions, if not hundreds of millions of broadsides, and probably less that 500,000 termies). It's also what they use in riptides, and is one of the slowing points for riptides (it's the only real thing that stops them from producing them at a much greater number). IT would be more correct to say, they do not have the recorces for it. Keep in mind, adimantite is rare in the imperium, and the imperium has pretty much limitless production possibility.
What they do have is Fio'tak (I think that's what it's called) that is comparable to cearmitite, but much lighter. That is the substance they use for more armour plating.
In fact, even the fluff for the Broadsides mention that the reason why the Broadside is so big is "moar armor":
Tau Codex wrote:In prototype production, it was quickly noticed that the new battlesuit could not avoid incoming fire, so further protective armour was added.
Or from the wiki, regarding the Fio'tak:
Battlesuit armour employing Fio'tak is shaped to deflect solid shot, and also has a liquid metal coating that reflects medium-grade laser fire. In some cases, such as that of the XV88 Broadside and XV104 Riptide Battlesuits, additional nano-layers of the material are added to upgrade the armour's thickness so that the protection it offers is even comparable to that of Tactical Dreadnought Armour.
It is really just a f*ckton of armor, IG/Ork-style.
Which is exactly what I just said. I was disagreeing that they didn't have something comparable to adamatite. I was saying that the reason it's not used on boradsides is that it would not be fesable to produce that much..
Bottom line is that Tau, since they have no CC options, should have better shooting than Eldar and they just don't. GW has really put the Tau in a rough spot because a better shooting list than Eldar at this point really makes the game moot.
Git gewd.
