Tamereth wrote: So if I want a Dakka jet guess I need to order now before it gets replaced by a more expensive kit with the extra bits?
Both the Stormtalon and the Dakkajet have been removed from the most recent order forms so yes, if you want to get them from a store get them fast as it is no longer possible to order them.
Tamereth wrote: So if I want a Dakka jet guess I need to order now before it gets replaced by a more expensive kit with the extra bits?
Both the Stormtalon and the Dakkajet have been removed from the most recent order forms so yes, if you want to get them from a store get them fast as it is no longer possible to order them.
Them being removed from the most recent order forms for independents doesn't mean that they're going away entirely, now does it?
Tamereth wrote: So if I want a Dakka jet guess I need to order now before it gets replaced by a more expensive kit with the extra bits?
Both the Stormtalon and the Dakkajet have been removed from the most recent order forms so yes, if you want to get them from a store get them fast as it is no longer possible to order them.
Them being removed from the most recent order forms for independents doesn't mean that they're going away entirely, now does it?
No but it means they are being removed (EDIT- or shall I say no longer available for order) from both Independents and GW own stores, at least for now.
So best scenario, they are actually not removed for good but repackaged and will come back at a later date in a new shiny box to be sold alongside the new ones. Half good/half bad scenario, when your stores sell all of their remaining stocks you can still get them on their website at full rrp. Worst scenario they are also dropped from the website when the new boxes are released.
rollawaythestone wrote: I'm hoping you can also engage FMC's while they are in reserve during the dogfight. Would be cool to follow a FMC off the board in order to dogfight it dead.
Only if there's suitable risk to yourself for doing so. Otherwise you've pretty much just gone and thrown Tyranids on the trash heap next to CSM in terms of viability.
The entire game has been stinking on the trash heap for a while now. This will not be the straw the breaks the camels back. The camel has been long dead. Instead, there is a chance these might be interesting and fun rules for casual players to use in their games, which is all 40K can possibly be right now anyway - a casual for-funsies game.
rollawaythestone wrote: there is a chance these might be interesting and fun rules for casual players to use in their games, which is all 40K can possibly be right now anyway - a casual for-funsies game.
Tamereth wrote: So if I want a Dakka jet guess I need to order now before it gets replaced by a more expensive kit with the extra bits?
Both the Stormtalon and the Dakkajet have been removed from the most recent order forms so yes, if you want to get them from a store get them fast as it is no longer possible to order them.
Them being removed from the most recent order forms for independents doesn't mean that they're going away entirely, now does it?
No but it means they are being removed (EDIT- or shall I say no longer available for order) from both Independents and GW own stores, at least for now.
GW's own stores don't "order" anything. If something sells, it gets restocked. If it isn't going to get restocked then it's been given a "Direct Only" tag on the webstore.
So best scenario, they are actually not removed for good but repackaged and will come back at a later date in a new shiny box to be sold alongside the new ones. Half good/half bad scenario, when your stores sell all of their remaining stocks you can still get them on their website at full rrp. Worst scenario they are also dropped from the website when the new boxes are released.
Both of which are not the same as what your post implies; which is "once they're gone they're never coming back".
It might seem needlessly nitpicky, but some of your postings before have been the cause of some people thinking they need to "panic buy" things.
awbbie wrote: Time to enjoy the wave of false hope that the Dark Eldar will get a new... I was going to say flyer but really anything would be nice.
Some anti-air and D weapons would be nice. If the DE can abduct entire planets, they can sure as hell pack some decent fire power.
I am hoping the same for Blood Angels and Grey Knights. When the only AA/flyer I have is in the form of a 200 pt bullet magnet, I can't imagine I will have a good time with this Dogfight nonsense.
That sounds a lot like attack/bombers are going to trade skyfire for ignore cover.
How and what things get classed as could be quite irritating. My talon/raven are the primary form of dealing with other flyers in my collection. Having to get the new kit for an AA bird would be irritating.
I also just read the WD page about the dogfighting with the tables and stuff. It sounds a lot like the old rules from the expansion with the random tables removed, allowing you to choose what to do (since it says it's a bluffing game and you can choose X. Before you couldn't choose at all you just rolled on the appropriate table depending if you were an Attacker or Defender.)
In all I'm cautiously optimistic. It doesn't look like a total turd yet.
Nevelon wrote: That sounds a lot like attack/bombers are going to trade skyfire for ignore cover.
How and what things get classed as could be quite irritating. My talon/raven are the primary form of dealing with other flyers in my collection. Having to get the new kit for an AA bird would be irritating.
Indeed. In the case of my Blood Angels, the Stormraven is the only form of Skyfire there is. Period.
Well its a good thing skyfire is readily available in my Necron and Dark Angels armies....oh wait....its not. I'm predicting the nightscythe will become an attack craft and the doomscythe will become a bomber. Or the nightscythe will become a fighter and the doomscythe an attack craft. The Dark Angels will gain two perfectly useless fighter and bomber and Space Marines will continue to gain flyers that nobody seems to have told the descendents of the 1st legion that there is all these new vehicles that have been always a part of the book of strategies and tactics they were given at chapterhood.
So are we going to see a lot more skyfire in 8th edition? This going to be one of those things right were we all say this will all make more sense with the next edition. An then all the people who go ham on flyers because they are OP find out they are terrible with the new edition. This is one of those things isn't it?.
I actually really like how there are sub types of flyers, and how they each have different strengths.
It might open up more tactics.
I still think the scale of the game isn't quite right for flyers due to table size, and would like them to act more like gunships than fighter jets, but its still a neat concept.
Question is though, are we going to see more dedicated ground AA, as only fighters are good at AA now?
1) Are FMC's going to be included in these rules? No mention of Flyrants or Demon Princes so far.... If only dedicated Air Superiority fighters get Skyfire now, that's a definite boost to those FMC that can stay airborne all game.
2) Are the Forgeworld Flyers (Lightning, Thunderbolt, Avenger etc) going to be updated for these rules?
BrotherGecko wrote: Well its a good thing skyfire is readily available in my Necron and Dark Angels armies....oh wait....its not. I'm predicting the nightscythe will become an attack craft and the doomscythe will become a bomber. Or the nightscythe will become a fighter and the doomscythe an attack craft. The Dark Angels will gain two perfectly useless fighter and bomber and Space Marines will continue to gain flyers that nobody seems to have told the descendents of the 1st legion that there is all these new vehicles that have been always a part of the book of strategies and tactics they were given at chapterhood.
So are we going to see a lot more skyfire in 8th edition? This going to be one of those things right were we all say this will all make more sense with the next edition. An then all the people who go ham on flyers because they are OP find out they are terrible with the new edition. This is one of those things isn't it?.
We may end up seeing anni barges being turned into AA batteries after all.
Or GW will release another set that we just have to buy -_-
BrotherGecko wrote: Well its a good thing skyfire is readily available in my Necron and Dark Angels armies....oh wait....its not. I'm predicting the nightscythe will become an attack craft and the doomscythe will become a bomber. Or the nightscythe will become a fighter and the doomscythe an attack craft. The Dark Angels will gain two perfectly useless fighter and bomber and Space Marines will continue to gain flyers that nobody seems to have told the descendents of the 1st legion that there is all these new vehicles that have been always a part of the book of strategies and tactics they were given at chapterhood.
So are we going to see a lot more skyfire in 8th edition? This going to be one of those things right were we all say this will all make more sense with the next edition. An then all the people who go ham on flyers because they are OP find out they are terrible with the new edition. This is one of those things isn't it?.
We may end up seeing anni barges being turned into AA batteries after all.
Or GW will release another set that we just have to buy -_-
Considering that anni barges have been sitting on my self since 7th ed I suppose I could accept them having a purpose after being beaten and left to die by the nerfstick.
I suspect our flyer kit will get an additional kit added to it that is whatever 3rd type of craft we don't currently have.
My lions blade Dark Angels are easily the most screwed by this.
I would actually really like to see tesla getting a bonus against aircraft, as that would kind of make sense. Aircraft no likey lightning. No haywire though, as that would conflict too much with the gauss rule. Just something like a hit bonus.
This may make tesla immortals into mini sam sites though...which would be kind of hilarious, but anyway.
Kanluwen wrote: GW's own stores don't "order" anything. If something sells, it gets restocked. If it isn't going to get restocked then it's been given a "Direct Only" tag on the webstore.
Ok, I will assume you are not doing this just for the sake of arguing and explain myself a little more.
From what I know so far, and I have no reason to believe that changed, the order forms that independents stores use is also the list of references that GW stores will restock (EDIT- before it leads to some arguing, I mean, that restocks are picked from that list, not that they restock everything), baring very few exceptions (like the previous SM paint set in the ugly transparent plastic box that was on the stockist program). So in the vast majority of the cases if it's no longer available for us to order it's no longer available for them to restock, and the reverse is true.
Kanluwen wrote: Both of which are not the same as what your post implies; which is "once they're gone they're never coming back".
It might seem needlessly nitpicky, but some of your postings before have been the cause of some people thinking they need to "panic buy" things.
My post imply nothing more than what I said. If you want them from a store then get them fast as additional boxes shall no longer be available. I said nothing about GW own website in my first post because I didn't know what would happen there. To me saying that it would be fine to wait while these models can no longer be ordered is a big no no.
As for the "panic buy" thing, which I assume is regarding IK:Renegade as I don't remember talking about the availability of another recent release, all the info I give come from GW, be it by rep or mail, as long as it's not something we're supposed to keep silent. So any issue with it I suggest taking it with GW directly and not me. Keep in mind that there is probably not a single soul on these forums that is a potential customer to me, so it's not like I was hunting for sales.
rollawaythestone wrote: there is a chance these might be interesting and fun rules for casual players to use in their games, which is all 40K can possibly be right now anyway - a casual for-funsies game.
Because god forbid anyone have fun.
Given GW's approach to 7th, I wouldn't count of fun. Frustrating random tables and lopsided games are a sure bet though.
Just want to say I'm psyched about new flyer stuff - because I they're cool as hell.
I'd also like to say that I enjoy playing this game and rolling dice and new releases. This seems to make me a minority, but if you feel the same, don't worry - there's other people like you out there.
And to whomever keeps posting up leaks - thanks! I'm really curious to see where all this goes.
Nevelon wrote: That sounds a lot like attack/bombers are going to trade skyfire for ignore cover.
How and what things get classed as could be quite irritating. My talon/raven are the primary form of dealing with other flyers in my collection. Having to get the new kit for an AA bird would be irritating.
Indeed. In the case of my Blood Angels, the Stormraven is the only form of Skyfire there is. Period.
I wouldn't be surprised if some of the not-fighters might still be granted Skyfire to specific weapons. The Stormraven's turret, for example.
Nevelon wrote: That sounds a lot like attack/bombers are going to trade skyfire for ignore cover.
How and what things get classed as could be quite irritating. My talon/raven are the primary form of dealing with other flyers in my collection. Having to get the new kit for an AA bird would be irritating.
Indeed. In the case of my Blood Angels, the Stormraven is the only form of Skyfire there is. Period.
I wouldn't be surprised if some of the not-fighters might still be granted Skyfire to specific weapons. The Stormraven's turret, for example.
I also wouldn't be surprised if they don't give Blood Angels squat.
Kanluwen wrote: GW's own stores don't "order" anything. If something sells, it gets restocked. If it isn't going to get restocked then it's been given a "Direct Only" tag on the webstore.
Ok, I will assume you are not doing this just for the sake of arguing and explain myself a little more.
I hate to break this to you after all that typing, but your first assumption was actually correct: Kan just likes to argue. The old kits will be sold until they're out of stock, then these new kits will replace them completely.
Wow! Ignores Cover 5/5 Large Blast one shot per model. It will revolutionize the industry of 5/5 shots in the Tau codex and then jam and never fire again.
/sarcasm
OR I can take anything with smart missiles and laugh at our bombers.
Whilst the weapon load outs may not be spectacular, the Dark Angels jets do have one distinct advantage over regular marines, their pilots are Ravenwing, their pursuit and agility scores should be very high compared to marines.
Depending on your needs it might be worth holding of on panic buying the old flyers. Based on this release and Sad Panda's earlier rumour it is highly likely that the old kits will be the ones included in the upcoming boxed game. My guess would be 2 of each and some scenery for £75. If the old kits do go out of stock the flyers will probably go for a decent price on eBay.
As someone who loves aircraft and loves (most) 40k aircraft.... these additions to the rules sound horrible to me. The last thing 40k needs is even more unbalanced rock paper scissors mechanics.
Space Marines were Super Future Space Templar Special Forces Monks, that was their appeal. The post-Heresy division of military power in the Imperium was a cool bit of fluff. Now all of that is out the window because the Space Marines had to be able to be SFSTSFM and field tank battalions and an air force, and be the best at all of them, so the elite Special Forces unit that was supposed to be banned by Imperial Decree from operating air & space fighters & bombers because that role was given to the Imperial Navy(hence why technically even Guard Valkyries are Navy assets with Navy pilots on secondment) are now trotting around with gunships and superiority fighters galore, and of course they're the bestest gunships and fighters ever, much more bestest than those silly normal human planes which are poo so you should buy more Spehz Marinz
How old is this fluff you are talking about and any idea where I might find it? Because I know that as far as the start of the Horus Heresy series (when I started following 40k), Battle Fleet Gothic and even Dawn of War era stuff they all had marines with armoured tank, battleship, gunboat and assault craft.
Is there a Warhammer-equivalent of "let me google that for you"? How old it is is irrelevant, GW fluff remains valid until it's explicitly contradicted, and it's that recent contradiction that's being remarked on.
Battlefleet Gothic is a good start though, as it includes specific blurbs about how controversial it was for the Marines to equip even an Escort-class vessel with lance weapons, since they were not supposed to possess any dedicated anti-line-ship vessels at all. Space Marine ships are supposed to be short-ranged and primarily focused on planetary assault; bombardment cannons and launch facilities being their main armament with only limited ship-to-ship weaponry on most vessels. The background for the Thunderhawk notes that they get around the prohibition against dedicated fighters/gunships by virtue of it having a transport capacity and acting as an avenue of deployment for regular Marines even though it's obviously capable of more than that(a letter vs spirit issue, like Sisters of Battle and the Decree Passive). The background on the aftermath of the Heresy is quite explicit - the Imperium never again wanted to have a situation where one madman or one group of Space Marines would be capable of engaging in total war, so their role was limited to that of rapid strike and all other aspects of the Imperial Army were divided between the Imperial Guard, the PDFs, and the Imperial Navy - all fighter and gunship responsibilities, for both voidwar and aerial combat, were the domain of the Imperial Navy. Have a read of Double Eagle, one of the core plot points is that it features literally the only Imperial Guard aircraft regiment in the entire Imperium.
Marines retained some armoured warfare capacity, because they required the ability to engage enemy armour when operating as a mechanised force, but that's the key point - outside of operating in-concert with Rhino-mounted Marines, full-on mass tank v tank battles were specifically noted as rarities or one-off tactics to take on an enemy they otherwise couldn't have handled(like throwing every Land Raider from your chapter armoury at a Titan).
Now, GW are perfectly within their rights to change all that fluff, it's just not a very good change from my perspective since it diminishes both the factions onto who's turf the Marines now encroach and also the Marines themselves, who have gone from colossal badasses who can swoop in and end a war with a single hammerblow assault on the enemy HQ, or even crush a rebellion out of pure fear by simply showing up in orbit, to essentially being "All the other human factions in one, but gooderer". Snore.
Maybe a built-up to a new "horus heresey/end of times"?
Boo - variants kits that are just an excuse to rebox existing kits and make them more expensive. After all, you can only build one of the two variants.
Squadrons of flyers? So are we going back to the 4×8 board standard? Otherwise the tabletop is about to get even more cluttered, some of the flyers take up a lot of space.
BrotherGecko wrote: Squadrons of flyers? So are we going back to the 4×8 board standard? Otherwise the tabletop is about to get even more cluttered, some of the flyers take up a lot of space.
There already are flyers that can be taken in squadrons tho
BrotherGecko wrote: Squadrons of flyers? So are we going back to the 4×8 board standard? Otherwise the tabletop is about to get even more cluttered, some of the flyers take up a lot of space.
There already are flyers that can be taken in squadrons tho
Which ones? I used to buy all the codexes to keep on the up and up but they are way to expensive for that now.
I remember the valkyrie could but I've never seen it before because it takes up a huge amount of space and reduces maneuverability.
orkz have 4
cwe have 2
sm have 3
da have 2
ig have 2
sw have 2
tau have 2
de have 2
necrons have 2
csm have 1
Funny things is, is that Eldar, in example, have their Crimson something and Hemlock something listed as separate models, while IG ony have Valkyrie. Vendetta is not listed as a separate kit. So in theory, IG only have one flyer. And that makes 21 out of 23, leaving exactly two places to fit in Nid Harpy and Crone. At least that's my theory.
No confirmation yet, but looking at what we have I'm actually pretty excited. Hopefully there is a good trade off with what they can actually do vs the end of 5th when they just decided to throw them out there.
So, bombers lose skyfire, which means that if you want to deal with enemy aircraft you now have to bring fighters of your own in addition to your bombers. More huge and awkward models on the table, more points spent on flyers instead of "normal" units. I guess we're going to have to move up to 5,000 points and a 10x6 table to hold all of this stuff? Or I suppose we could just ignore this pointless rules-bloat expansion and treat it as a couple of nice counts-as models for the existing C:SM and ork flyers.
They could add the skyfire rule to them like they used to on forgeworld.
Also, since they are updating EVERY flyer in the core rules sets, it is possible that the factions for blood angels, space wolves, etc. will be added to the storm talon/hawk.
Then every marine chapter will have access to these flyers without invalidating their books.
Are these rules only if everyone agrees to play the Death from the Skies expansion (a la apocalypse), or will this become the new standard in all games of 40K?
Are these rules only if everyone agrees to play the Death from the Skies expansion (a la apocalypse), or will this become the new standard in all games of 40K?
If the next Codex(that has Flying vehicles)lists the Agility/Pursuit scores under the unit entry we'll know of its intended to be a part of the main game or not.
IG ony have Valkyrie. Vendetta is not listed as a separate kit. So in theory, IG only have one flyer. And that makes 21 out of 23, leaving exactly two places to fit in Nid Harpy and Crone. At least that's my theory.
keep on dreaming ^^ ... as it is, the vendetta is listed in the codex
IG ony have Valkyrie. Vendetta is not listed as a separate kit. So in theory, IG only have one flyer. And that makes 21 out of 23, leaving exactly two places to fit in Nid Harpy and Crone. At least that's my theory.
keep on dreaming ^^ ... as it is, the vendetta is listed in the codex
Well, then I would like to hear your theory what fills up those remaining spots
Well, then I would like to hear your theory what fills up that remaining spot
fixed that ... for me either a new flier or something else we haven't spoiled out yet from the new kits
But the teaser poster, featuring both new flyers is already up :( And the pictures from white dwarf already show what we're going to get. Do you really think they would hide something from players, just to make a surprise when they buy the supplement and see what's inside?
Sinful Hero wrote: If the next Codex(that has Flying vehicles)lists the Agility/Pursuit scores under the unit entry we'll know of its intended to be a part of the main game or not.
I would be extremely surprised if GW did not do this because a) Players screaming new flying vehicles aren't being supported by the new supplement rules, b) cross-seeding for extra book sales.
But the teaser poster, featuring both new flyers is already up :( And the pictures from white dwarf already show what we're going to get. Do you really think they would hide something from players, just to make a surprise when they buy the supplement and see what's inside?
whatever it is we shall know in less than a week or two
IG ony have Valkyrie. Vendetta is not listed as a separate kit. So in theory, IG only have one flyer. And that makes 21 out of 23, leaving exactly two places to fit in Nid Harpy and Crone. At least that's my theory.
keep on dreaming ^^ ... as it is, the vendetta is listed in the codex
Well, then I would like to hear your theory what fills up those remaining spots
It is certainly possible for there to be another release of more flyers. This week saw two "new" flyers, perhaps next week will have them too. If so, hopefully for CSM and BA/GKs. Not counting on it. GW can't count. They said Angels of Death would have 14 formations, it included 12.
Ok more seriously, the Valkyrie box offers no option to build a Vendetta IIRC, so it would be a good candidate for an updated box with additional sprue. And there would be enough space remaining on it to offer a third flyer option out of the kit.
They should imo finally release a plastic Thunderhawk and show the enemy of mankind who's boss. It is annoying to get all these tiny wimpy spacecrafts when Space Marines (and their traitorous counterparts) could fly into battle with actual style. Calgar being the only Lord of War in the Marine book, how petty.
I wonder if the whole "Bombers losing skyfire" applies to the interceptor drones on the Tau Bomber. It specifically has skyfire while on most planes its given it from the BRB rules for flyers. Might make the Bomber still the better of the two for air to air combat
Too bad the bomber is a joke at actually bombing things.
Peregrine wrote: So, bombers lose skyfire, which means that if you want to deal with enemy aircraft you now have to bring fighters of your own in addition to your bombers. More huge and awkward models on the table, more points spent on flyers instead of "normal" units. I guess we're going to have to move up to 5,000 points and a 10x6 table to hold all of this stuff? Or I suppose we could just ignore this pointless rules-bloat expansion and treat it as a couple of nice counts-as models for the existing C:SM and ork flyers.
Peregrine wrote: So, bombers lose skyfire, which means that if you want to deal with enemy aircraft you now have to bring fighters of your own in addition to your bombers. More huge and awkward models on the table, more points spent on flyers instead of "normal" units. I guess we're going to have to move up to 5,000 points and a 10x6 table to hold all of this stuff? Or I suppose we could just ignore this pointless rules-bloat expansion and treat it as a couple of nice counts-as models for the existing C:SM and ork flyers.
Or you take more ground based Anti-air.
Gotta sell those Stalkers and Hydras! Armies without land-based AA need not apply.
Peregrine wrote: So, bombers lose skyfire, which means that if you want to deal with enemy aircraft you now have to bring fighters of your own in addition to your bombers. More huge and awkward models on the table, more points spent on flyers instead of "normal" units. I guess we're going to have to move up to 5,000 points and a 10x6 table to hold all of this stuff? Or I suppose we could just ignore this pointless rules-bloat expansion and treat it as a couple of nice counts-as models for the existing C:SM and ork flyers.
Or you take more ground based Anti-air.
Gotta sell those Stalkers and Hydras! Armies without land-based AA need not apply.
Yeah, armies that were not granted ground AA are kind of screwed :(
You'd think GW would give every faction some sort of AA unit by now, but nope.
Aegis Defense Line
Imperial Bastion
Imperial Bunker
Firestorm Redoubt
Vengeance Weapon Battery
Fortress of Redemption
Macro-Cannon Aquila Strongpoint (Quake Shells)
But armies with ground-based AA get these as well. And most ground-based AA is cheaper and better. I wonder if GW realizes that they would make a boat load more money if they gave the atypical Space Marine factions access to stuff like the Stormtalon/Stormhawk and the Stalker/Hunter. I can understand why they won't give them to CSM (they are post-Heresy tech), but why wouldn't BA/DA/GK/SW have them. I can kinda understand GK(these aren't really in their wheelhouse) and SW(they do their own thing with most everything anyway), but DA/BA are nominally Codex-adherent. Why wouldn't they have some of this tech?
And honestly, CSM aren't dumb. The Iron Warriors would have come up with something by now and it would have been disseminated by virtue of the Black Crusades.
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BrookM wrote: I wonder if the upcoming supplement will also feature Forge World flyers.
Why would it? No supplements have included FW stuff before.
TedNugent wrote: Soooo....
Do dark angels/Orks get an air superiority fighter yet?
I mentioned earlier, as they have Ravening pilots, they 'should' get on the elite end of pursuit and agility stats, so the Nephilim may actually be quite the fighter.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I mentioned earlier, as they have Ravening pilots, they 'should' get on the elite end of pursuit and agility stats, so the Nephilim may actually be quite the fighter.
Let's hope not. Space marines shouldn't be the best at everything. If they have to get a fighter I guess I can live with it, but it should be a low-tier unit that you only take because you don't want to have allies. The Imperial Navy should get the best fighters, the ones you take when you want a serious air superiority option.
TedNugent wrote: Soooo....
Do dark angels/Orks get an air superiority fighter yet?
I mentioned earlier, as they have Ravening pilots, they 'should' get on the elite end of pursuit and agility stats, so the Nephilim may actually be quite the fighter.
So the Nephilim is probably going to end up an Attack Flyer or Fighter (probably a Fighter since it is literally in its name) and the Dark Talon is going to be a Bomber. I imagine for C:SM the Stormraven and Stormtalon will both be Attack Flyers, while the new Stormhawk is a Fighter. The Stormwolf is probably an Attack Flyer and the Stormfang is probably a Bomber. My criteria for Attack v. Bomber tends to be if the main weapons are regular Shooting vs. Blast/Template weapons. I could see the Stormfang as an Attack Flyer as well.
So of the Space Marine flyers, we have the following:
Attack Flyer - Stormraven, Stormtalon, Stormwolf
Fighter - Nephilim Jetfighter, Stormhawk
Bomber - Dark Talon, Stormfang
Other known roles are the following:
Crimson Hunter, Dakkajet - Fighter
Heldrake, Doomscythe - Attack Flyer
Voidraven, Blitza-Bommer, Sunshark - Bomber
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Gamgee wrote: One dataslate left. I wonder who gets the new aircraft. Please be Tau Barricuda.
I would much rather see another Chaos Space Marines flyer. Tau aren't exactly hurting in the flyer department.
BrookM wrote: Oh bollocks, so much for that then. :(
I expect them to put in those rules up later anyway. Especially if the new rules will be any form of common use. They want to sell models so don't want to have unworking rules hindering that.
BrookM wrote: Attack flyers are for ground targets yes? Well, that's what the Valkyrie and Vendetta are for, they are gunships after all.
Works enough for me. I think that seems pretty clear cut.
The lines of separation(with adjustments for Orks...) are probably going to be anything with the word Fighter in its name becomes Fighter, anything with the name Gunship or has a Transport capacity is an Attack Flyer (which means the Stormfang is likely an Attack Flyer, not a Bomber), and anything with the word Bomber in the name is a Bomber. Seems simple enough.
Attack Flyer is such a weird term. Should have just called them Multiroles because that's what they're called in real life.
The Valkyries/Vendettas would likely not be classed as true proper aircraft flight aircraft today but used more like Helicopters and other VTOL craft. Which should be its own classification of gunship which gets bonuses against tanks and other single targets of opportunity. Where as bombers should be great at area of effect attacks. Gunships would get crazy bonuses against troops as well. Gunships would be very vulnerable to fighters and multiroles big time and might not even be equipped to fire at them. Also weak to anti-air of any kind since they lack speed to evade so should never be there to get it. There are helicopter gunships in real life that have anti-air missiles which are usually used against other gunships and if need be aircraft but its certainly not a role they excel at.
H.B.M.C. wrote: How would a bomber's tail gun (like the one on the new Orky thing) not have Skyfire?
We don't know that it is lacking Skyfire on the tail gun.
We know that Skyfire is no longer a native option for all of the weapons on flyers that aren't Fighters.
We also know that there are updated profiles for the currently existing Flyers; which could include their weapons(the Ork Supa Shoota, which is the tail mount on the new Ork Mek Bomber is the same as the turret on the Ork Burna Bommer) being updated.
H.B.M.C. wrote: How would a bomber's tail gun (like the one on the new Orky thing) not have Skyfire?
We don't know that it is lacking Skyfire on the tail gun.
We know that Skyfire is no longer a native option for all of the weapons on flyers that aren't Fighters.
We also know that there are updated profiles for the currently existing Flyers; which could include their weapons(the Ork Supa Shoota, which is the tail mount on the new Ork Mek Bomber is the same as the turret on the Ork Burna Bommer) being updated.
Indeed. It seems like they will be redoing the Flyer rules so that Flyers no longer chose when they want to use Skyfire. So if a Fighter is equipped with a bunch of Skyfire weapons, they will be snap-shooting them against non-Flyers or Skimmers. Attack Flyers and Bombers may come with some Skyfire weapons, but they will face the same issue as a Fighter when using them against non-Flyers or Skimmers.
To me, there are a number of flyers that would make sense as Fighter-Attack units. Both the Stormtalon and Stormraven would make sense as F/A.
H.B.M.C. wrote: How would a bomber's tail gun (like the one on the new Orky thing) not have Skyfire?
We don't know that it is lacking Skyfire on the tail gun.
We know that Skyfire is no longer a native option for all of the weapons on flyers that aren't Fighters.
We also know that there are updated profiles for the currently existing Flyers; which could include their weapons(the Ork Supa Shoota, which is the tail mount on the new Ork Mek Bomber is the same as the turret on the Ork Burna Bommer) being updated.
Indeed. It seems like they will be redoing the Flyer rules so that Flyers no longer chose when they want to use Skyfire. So if a Fighter is equipped with a bunch of Skyfire weapons, they will be snap-shooting them against non-Flyers or Skimmers. Attack Flyers and Bombers may come with some Skyfire weapons, but they will face the same issue as a Fighter when using them against non-Flyers or Skimmers.
To me, there are a number of flyers that would make sense as Fighter-Attack units. Both the Stormtalon and Stormraven would make sense as F/A.
I hope that isn't the case. The Dakkajet for example isn't all that great of a fighter (can only glance AV12) while its actually a decently good ground attack vehicle due to strafing run and long range being able to get reach on some backfield targets that most Ork shooting wouldn't be able to get at effectively.
H.B.M.C. wrote: How would a bomber's tail gun (like the one on the new Orky thing) not have Skyfire?
We don't know that it is lacking Skyfire on the tail gun.
We know that Skyfire is no longer a native option for all of the weapons on flyers that aren't Fighters.
We also know that there are updated profiles for the currently existing Flyers; which could include their weapons(the Ork Supa Shoota, which is the tail mount on the new Ork Mek Bomber is the same as the turret on the Ork Burna Bommer) being updated.
Indeed. It seems like they will be redoing the Flyer rules so that Flyers no longer chose when they want to use Skyfire. So if a Fighter is equipped with a bunch of Skyfire weapons, they will be snap-shooting them against non-Flyers or Skimmers. Attack Flyers and Bombers may come with some Skyfire weapons, but they will face the same issue as a Fighter when using them against non-Flyers or Skimmers.
To me, there are a number of flyers that would make sense as Fighter-Attack units. Both the Stormtalon and Stormraven would make sense as F/A.
I hope that isn't the case. The Dakkajet for example isn't all that great of a fighter (can only glance AV12) while its actually a decently good ground attack vehicle due to strafing run and long range being able to get reach on some backfield targets that most Ork shooting wouldn't be able to get at effectively.
Perhaps the Dakkajet's new data sheet will change that.
I hope fighters are not required to snap shoot at ground targets... if so my razorwing will be retiring I am guessing it is actually an attack flyer since it has a nose splinter weapon and 4 anti-infantry missiles lol.
Seriously though, my guess is that fighter is the best role now, able to do engage any target, while attack is slightly worse and bomber is straight pigeon holed. That said, maybe the more specific your role the better special rules you get.
Red Corsair wrote: I hope fighters are not required to snap shoot at ground targets... if so my razorwing will be retiring I am guessing it is actually an attack flyer since it has a nose splinter weapon and 4 anti-infantry missiles lol.
Seriously though, my guess is that fighter is the best role now, able to do engage any target, while attack is slightly worse and bomber is straight pigeon holed. That said, maybe the more specific your role the better special rules you get.
Fighter is probably going to be the best role because they are trying to sell more kits, and they are the newest ones. I kinda hope that Attack Flyers are more F/A than just strickly A.
Red Corsair wrote: I hope fighters are not required to snap shoot at ground targets... if so my razorwing will be retiring I am guessing it is actually an attack flyer since it has a nose splinter weapon and 4 anti-infantry missiles lol.
Seriously though, my guess is that fighter is the best role now, able to do engage any target, while attack is slightly worse and bomber is straight pigeon holed. That said, maybe the more specific your role the better special rules you get.
Fighter is probably going to be the best role because they are trying to sell more kits, and they are the newest ones. I kinda hope that Attack Flyers are more F/A than just strickly A.
You never know though. What if fighters snap fire at ground targets, this would make sense especially against infantry. No way a crimson hunter is going super sonic and hitting that lone marine 3 out of 4 shots on average~
Red Corsair wrote: I hope fighters are not required to snap shoot at ground targets... if so my razorwing will be retiring I am guessing it is actually an attack flyer since it has a nose splinter weapon and 4 anti-infantry missiles lol.
Seriously though, my guess is that fighter is the best role now, able to do engage any target, while attack is slightly worse and bomber is straight pigeon holed. That said, maybe the more specific your role the better special rules you get.
Fighter is probably going to be the best role because they are trying to sell more kits, and they are the newest ones. I kinda hope that Attack Flyers are more F/A than just strickly A.
You never know though. What if fighters snap fire at ground targets, this would make sense especially against infantry. No way a crimson hunter is going super sonic and hitting that lone marine 3 out of 4 shots on average~
It would be a massive change for something like the Dakkajet as it had the strafing run rule to increase accuracy against ground targets. Also funny enough that all 3 Ork flyers are supersonic.
Also worth noting that all the Ork flyers and the Stormtalon are 404 on GW's US website
In order to fix the current massive, ludicrous imbalance between flyers and FMCs (in that flyers don't come on til turn 2+, then don't usually have any weaponry that can get through FMCs 3+/2+ armor saves and Jink and usually FNP, let alone have a hope to kill them...because you get one turn then FMCs which ignore flyer facing rules can just follow behind you and shoot you until you're dead...and damage you do means nothing because FMCs dont have a damage table to impede rather than kill them)
GW is removing skyfire from 2/3rds of the flyers in the game, and most of the flyers that DO have a wing and a prayer (heh) of harming an FMC.
AND, it seems like they're being completely exempt from the new "Flyers get to shoot each other down before they show up" phase, so that gives no advantage to flyers at all, and FMCs remain the absolute last word in complete air superiority.
In order to fix the current massive, ludicrous imbalance between flyers and FMCs (in that flyers don't come on til turn 2+, then don't usually have any weaponry that can get through FMCs 3+/2+ armor saves and Jink and usually FNP, let alone have a hope to kill them...because you get one turn then FMCs which ignore flyer facing rules can just follow behind you and shoot you until you're dead...and damage you do means nothing because FMCs dont have a damage table to impede rather than kill them)
GW is removing skyfire from 2/3rds of the flyers in the game, and most of the flyers that DO have a wing and a prayer (heh) of harming an FMC.
AND, it seems like they're being completely exempt from the new "Flyers get to shoot each other down before they show up" phase, so that gives no advantage to flyers at all, and FMCs remain the absolute last word in complete air superiority.
Way to change the state of the game, GW. >.>
Long story short is we don't quite know yet.
We know Flyers are getting a new phase of their own, where they can seemingly still affect things that aren't Flyers. It could very well be that Fighters are going to be able to put down FMCs during the Flyer phase.
Also, GW is removing the native Skyfire from the Attack and Bomber classifications. That means that you don't just automatically get Skyfire for being a Flyer anymore, but that doesn't stop weapons from being rejigged to have Skyfire.
H.B.M.C. wrote: How would a bomber's tail gun (like the one on the new Orky thing) not have Skyfire?
We don't know that it is lacking Skyfire on the tail gun.
We know that Skyfire is no longer a native option for all of the weapons on flyers that aren't Fighters.
We also know that there are updated profiles for the currently existing Flyers; which could include their weapons(the Ork Supa Shoota, which is the tail mount on the new Ork Mek Bomber is the same as the turret on the Ork Burna Bommer) being updated.
The turrets may get Skyfire, but I'll bet they're still just Big Shootas, so only strength 5 and useless against all imperial flyers. I mean why should the imperium have to obey the same rules of physics as the rest of the races and have to sacrifice heavy armour for the ability to get off the ground?!
Perhaps the changes only apply to the Dogfight phase and Flyers function like always in the other phases of the game. So Bombers suck at shooting other flyers in the Dogfight phase, but can shoot FMCs with the best of them in the Shooting Phase.
Afterall, it isnt like FMCs are flying at speeds like Flyers or probably anywhere as high as them.
H.B.M.C. wrote: How would a bomber's tail gun (like the one on the new Orky thing) not have Skyfire?
We don't know that it is lacking Skyfire on the tail gun.
We know that Skyfire is no longer a native option for all of the weapons on flyers that aren't Fighters. We also know that there are updated profiles for the currently existing Flyers; which could include their weapons(the Ork Supa Shoota, which is the tail mount on the new Ork Mek Bomber is the same as the turret on the Ork Burna Bommer) being updated.
The turrets may get Skyfire, but I'll bet they're still just Big Shootas, so only strength 5 and useless against all imperial flyers. I mean why should the imperium have to obey the same rules of physics as the rest of the races and have to sacrifice heavy armour for the ability to get off the ground?!
You do know that there are new stats being added to the Flyers, right?
"Pursuit" is a thing--and apparently the Eldar Flyers have the highest of it. The blurb associated with Pursuit has a Dark Eldar Razorwing Jetfighter being able to move 17 to 29 inches instead of the "normal" 12 to 24 inches.
How is being able to flat-out a little further useful since flatting out isn't useful to begin with? I don't think I've ever used the flat out option because why would I?
mercury14 wrote: How is being able to flat-out a little further useful since flatting out isn't useful to begin with? I don't think I've ever used the flat out option because why would I?
Pfft you assume they actually rigorously playtest the game. The nerve!
mercury14 wrote: How is being able to flat-out a little further useful since flatting out isn't useful to begin with? I don't think I've ever used the flat out option because why would I?
Pfft you assume they actually rigorously playtest the game. The nerve!
Playtesting aside they should be able to just eyeball that.
On a side note I talked to FW customer service about their flyers being updated with pursuit and agility values. Their response? "No we're not aware of any plans to do that at this time".
mercury14 wrote: How is being able to flat-out a little further useful since flatting out isn't useful to begin with? I don't think I've ever used the flat out option because why would I?
Pfft you assume they actually rigorously playtest the game. The nerve!
Playtesting aside they should be able to just eyeball that.
On a side note I talked to FW customer service about their flyers being updated with pursuit and agility values. Their response? "No we're not aware of any plans to do that at this time".
That might just be the veil of secrecy. Can’t admit to anything until it’s out. I’d not be surprised if they had a PDF ready to go day 1
H.B.M.C. wrote: How would a bomber's tail gun (like the one on the new Orky thing) not have Skyfire?
I could see Tail Gunners not having Skyfire in general, but possibly having some special rule for a flyer in Pursuit mode (or whatever it's called).
So that way, you don't actually track Altitude (no matter how sensible that might be), but your tail gunner can shoot up people tailing him, but not just randomly shoot up anything behind the plane (because it might be at a different altitude).
I still am a fan of the old flyer system (you move across the whole board). If GW is going to put out a whole book on flyers, go ahead and give them different speeds (from Kopta/Land Speeder hovering to supersonic jet speeds), throw in some altitude bands (so the bomber way overhead is a bit less vulnerable than the guy clipping the treetops), and expect most of them to enter and leave combat airspace more frequently.
Overall I think flyers were in much less a need of retooling compared to FMC's. I really hope they address FMC's next as they are a pretty big fluff up IMHO.
360 firing arch
12" min move
Able to toe in cover while swooping
Able to choose skyfire OR normal firing
Zero restrictions on psychic powers while swooping
Actually benefiting from assaulting the turn after being grounded
Red Corsair wrote: Overall I think flyers were in much less a need of retooling compared to FMC's. I really hope they address FMC's next as they are a pretty big fluff up IMHO.
360 firing arch
12" min move
Able to toe in cover while swooping
Able to choose skyfire OR normal firing
Zero restrictions on psychic powers while swooping
Actually benefiting from assaulting the turn after being grounded
The list goes on I am sure.
To be fair, in the context of a 40k game, FMC's should probably be more efficient than mechanical flyers anyway. Just the nature of a biological flyer it'd make for a better "close support" option.
If you're going to scale realistically most of 40k's mechanical flyers, they should operate more like they used to in Epic 40k, you have a flyer phase where they just zoom from one side of the table to the other and then vanish until the next turn. Even some of the close support options (Valkyries and whatnot) would be at a much larger stand off range rather than hovering directly above enemy troops where they'd be susceptible to small arms fire. It'd be an oddity for them to come within 0.5km of the enemy.
H.B.M.C. wrote: How would a bomber's tail gun (like the one on the new Orky thing) not have Skyfire?
We don't know that it is lacking Skyfire on the tail gun.
We know that Skyfire is no longer a native option for all of the weapons on flyers that aren't Fighters.
We also know that there are updated profiles for the currently existing Flyers; which could include their weapons(the Ork Supa Shoota, which is the tail mount on the new Ork Mek Bomber is the same as the turret on the Ork Burna Bommer) being updated.
The turrets may get Skyfire, but I'll bet they're still just Big Shootas, so only strength 5 and useless against all imperial flyers. I mean why should the imperium have to obey the same rules of physics as the rest of the races and have to sacrifice heavy armour for the ability to get off the ground?!
You do know that there are new stats being added to the Flyers, right?
"Pursuit" is a thing--and apparently the Eldar Flyers have the highest of it. The blurb associated with Pursuit has a Dark Eldar Razorwing Jetfighter being able to move 17 to 29 inches instead of the "normal" 12 to 24 inches.
Here's the associated image:
Well isnt that hilarious, because with the Supersonic special rule the Razorwing can Flat Out 36" anyway, not that anybody would remotely want to in a normal game.
So far I'm not seeing anything from DftS as being worth while and as a DE player they would have to seriously rejig our flyers points and weapon loadouts, since the fighter is a better bomber and the bomber is a better fighter, to make this remotely useful.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I mentioned earlier, as they have Ravening pilots, they 'should' get on the elite end of pursuit and agility stats, so the Nephilim may actually be quite the fighter.
Let's hope not. Space marines shouldn't be the best at everything. If they have to get a fighter I guess I can live with it, but it should be a low-tier unit that you only take because you don't want to have allies. The Imperial Navy should get the best fighters, the ones you take when you want a serious air superiority option.
I was talking about one particular Space marine fighter that only the Dark Angels have. Not all of them, as I tend to agree with you somewhat, they would at least be equal in some capacity at least anyway, the imperial navy and marine fighters. The Navy being slightly slower but having equal armour and superior guns (either in volume, power or both), whilst the marines have better agility (super human after all) but less weapons as a trade off, or more close range weapons at least, which shows with the assault cannons on the hawks, whilst fliers mitigate the distance required, they are still short range, especially on longer boards, so could require a chase to get those in range against other fast craft.
The Navy should always flat out have better bombers though, and it doesn't look like any marine one is going to be rivalling that any time soon.
Also, it's not as if the Nephilim has amazing weapons on it, which is why the better stats for the pilot are both fitting and will make it more viable as an option at least, which it needs as it's quite a cool model, I think so anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Last point.
I wonder what role if any deep strike has for some aircraft now. It would be very apt and fitting fluff wise if certain aircraft could say intercept enemies by deep striking right into a dog fight.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The only other one listed that has a pretty clear cut role is the Dark Eldar Razorwing Jetfighter, which is most certainly a Fighter.
I'd say it's more of an attack craft. I think the Raven would be the best example of a true Dark Eldar fighter.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I hope the new rules are only for the dogfight phase and we can just toss the book out and ignore it.
I wish people would do that for the majority of GW releases.
Haters going to hate.
I'm relaly looking forward to the new rules and think it will add something to the game. As usual, the Most Important Rule and Forge the Narrative come into play. Don't want to use the rules? Don't. Just want a flier campaign? Sorted.
One thing I hope they sort is bomber and attack fighter ability to hit under them without worrying about the 22.5 degree firing arc downwards...
I might like these rules the only obvious problem is that Ork fliers are kinda bad compared to most other fliers I hope they fix that. Instead of giving them poor agility and just buffing eldar fliers some more
oldzoggy wrote: I might like these rules the only obvious problem is that Ork fliers are kinda bad compared to most other fliers I hope they fix that.
Instead of giving them poor agility and just buffing eldar fliers some more
I'm anxious to see if they are going to be tweaking the current rules and point costs or just adding the new attributes.
So I was wracking my brain trying to figure out how exactly are they gonna manage to screw CSM with these rules. And then I realized - Dreadclaws are flyers.
Man goes in the flyer. Flyer goes in reserve. Man goes in reserve. Stormhawk's in reserve. Well fairwell and adieu to you fair Spanish ladies...
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: So I was wracking my brain trying to figure out how exactly are they gonna manage to screw CSM with these rules. And then I realized - Dreadclaws are flyers.
Man goes in the flyer. Flyer goes in reserve. Man goes in reserve. Stormhawk's in reserve. Well fairwell and adieu to you fair Spanish ladies...
I am more worried about the Hellswan. If it will be a fighter, it will maybe get screwed.... Since I obviously don´t have a fighter in my list, I better build a whole lot more quadgun-tarantulas.....
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: What if flying mc's lost the hard to hit rule? Suddenly they aren't head and shoulders above regular flyers...
Never gonna happen.
Why not? They aren't faster than fast skimmers or jetbikes, they can gain a cover save from being in area terrain (meaning they are atnleast as low as knee high grass) and would still gain jink and the better movement they do now. Hell, they are already able to be targeted by templates with skyfire (with as many of those you see around...)
Let them charge the turn they drop and keep their skyfire/ vector strike and suddenly they have a niche within the game somewhere between skimmer and actual flyers.
One single sentence in the rules of this supplement does all of that.
What I am concerned about with this supplement is that it is going to allow people to remove models before they even see the table. No one (okay maybe some weird people) likes to pack up all their models, travel down to the store, arrange a game, then not get to put their painted models on the table because they were "shot in reserves".
The phase looks like it will put even more emphasis on list building rather than maneuvering and tactics. It speaks about how the players role off to determine attacker and defender, performing a time consuming steps, then doing damage (probably by something like giving the attacker a shooting phase against the defender or similar). This removes the ability of models to maneuver away from combats they do not like or make use of intervening terrain. I fear that it will not account for weapon facing (reasoning that the attacker must have gotten behind the defender), removing the disadvantages conveyed by having fixed weapon facings (an making the new Space Marine fighter even better).
Hopefully they won't grant advantages to an army that has flyers in reserve over those that don't (making bringing flyers and taking part in these dogfights necessary) so that I can safely ignore this supplement.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: What if flying mc's lost the hard to hit rule? Suddenly they aren't head and shoulders above regular flyers...
Never gonna happen.
Why not? They aren't faster than fast skimmers or jetbikes, they can gain a cover save from being in area terrain (meaning they are atnleast as low as knee high grass) and would still gain jink and the better movement they do now. Hell, they are already able to be targeted by templates with skyfire (with as many of those you see around...)
Let them charge the turn they drop and keep their skyfire/ vector strike and suddenly they have a niche within the game somewhere between skimmer and actual flyers.
One single sentence in the rules of this supplement does all of that.
It won't happen because it would reduce the strength of MCs, and we know that GW won't ever do that.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: What if flying mc's lost the hard to hit rule? Suddenly they aren't head and shoulders above regular flyers...
Never gonna happen.
Why not? They aren't faster than fast skimmers or jetbikes, they can gain a cover save from being in area terrain (meaning they are atnleast as low as knee high grass) and would still gain jink and the better movement they do now. Hell, they are already able to be targeted by templates with skyfire (with as many of those you see around...)
Let them charge the turn they drop and keep their skyfire/ vector strike and suddenly they have a niche within the game somewhere between skimmer and actual flyers.
One single sentence in the rules of this supplement does all of that.
It won't happen because it would reduce the strength of MCs, and we know that GW won't ever do that.
Let's not pretend MCs and FMCs haven't been nerfed since 6th. Smash got made worse and Melee FMCs were made utterly terrible unless you have a psyker with Invisibility or other way of buffing its survivability.
They may not be massive nerfs, but they're nerfs (and really, MC's don't need a nerf in general, vehicles need a buff).
Frozocrone wrote: If GW made FMC's lose Hard to Hit then Tyranids would drop out the competitive scene like they did to Marker lights in 6th.
On the flip side of this, if they leave FMCs the way the are and take away Skyfire from non-Fighter flyers, Flyrants will be unkillable to a good number of armies.
The Voidraven lost skyfire. According to thedarkcity news and rumors and someone who has an advanced copy. Eldar formation of fliers is good Dark Eldar one isn't. There is a generic flyer detachment that anyone can use.
Looks like its as cheaply made rules as we all expected. Move along nothing to see here.
Gamgee wrote: The Voidraven lost skyfire. According to thedarkcity news and rumors and someone who has an advanced copy. Eldar formation of fliers is good Dark Eldar one isn't. There is a generic flyer detachment that anyone can use.
Looks like its as cheaply made rules as we all expected. Move along nothing to see here.
Of course the Eldar one is good. Nothing about that is suprising. Hopefully my Stormtalons won't suddenly become useless as AA, otherwise I will probably be needing to get a squadron of Stalker tanks.
the Signless wrote: What I am concerned about with this supplement is that it is going to allow people to remove models before they even see the table. No one (okay maybe some weird people) likes to pack up all their models, travel down to the store, arrange a game, then not get to put their painted models on the table because they were "shot in reserves".
The phase looks like it will put even more emphasis on list building rather than maneuvering and tactics. It speaks about how the players role off to determine attacker and defender, performing a time consuming steps, then doing damage (probably by something like giving the attacker a shooting phase against the defender or similar). This removes the ability of models to maneuver away from combats they do not like or make use of intervening terrain. I fear that it will not account for weapon facing (reasoning that the attacker must have gotten behind the defender), removing the disadvantages conveyed by having fixed weapon facings (an making the new Space Marine fighter even better).
Hopefully they won't grant advantages to an army that has flyers in reserve over those that don't (making bringing flyers and taking part in these dogfights necessary) so that I can safely ignore this supplement.
Couldn't agree more.
GW were doing so well lately. But like an old drunk who's not been to an AA meeting in two weeks, they've fallen off the wagon with this book I fear.
Any word on the Nephilim from anywhere? I just want the dogfighter from the fluff to actually exist rules wise, instead of being better as a ground attack craft
Rygnan wrote: Any word on the Nephilim from anywhere? I just want the dogfighter from the fluff to actually exist rules wise, instead of being better as a ground attack craft
I suspect it will be classed as a Fighter as it is the Nephilim Jetfighter. However, don't expect it to get any sort of buff.
Dare I say it, but I am looking forward to this, it could be an interesting sub game. BUT the storm hawk(or whatever the main space marine centre piece flyer is called) looks like a piece of poo. (I'm an ig or harlequins player, so I'll have to see what turns up)
Gamgee wrote: The Voidraven lost skyfire. According to thedarkcity news and rumors and someone who has an advanced copy. Eldar formation of fliers is good Dark Eldar one isn't. There is a generic flyer detachment that anyone can use.
Looks like its as cheaply made rules as we all expected. Move along nothing to see here.
The rumour on TheDarkCity is an unsourced quote with nothing but the vaguest info in it.
Gamgee wrote: The Voidraven lost skyfire. According to thedarkcity news and rumors and someone who has an advanced copy. Eldar formation of fliers is good Dark Eldar one isn't. There is a generic flyer detachment that anyone can use.
Looks like its as cheaply made rules as we all expected. Move along nothing to see here.
The rumour on TheDarkCity is an unsourced quote with nothing but the vaguest info in it.
Well actually...
Spoiler:
Now, that doesn't mean that the Voidraven will be devoid of Skyfire weapons, it's just that no longer will things have Skyfire simply from being a Flyer.
Gamgee wrote: The Voidraven lost skyfire. According to thedarkcity news and rumors and someone who has an advanced copy. Eldar formation of fliers is good Dark Eldar one isn't. There is a generic flyer detachment that anyone can use.
Looks like its as cheaply made rules as we all expected. Move along nothing to see here.
The rumour on TheDarkCity is an unsourced quote with nothing but the vaguest info in it.
Well actually...
Spoiler:
Now, that doesn't mean that the Voidraven will be devoid of Skyfire weapons, it's just that no longer will things have Skyfire simply from being a Flyer.
Yeah, the TheDarkCity rumour isn't about Skyfire. It's about Eldar and Dark Eldar formations. I'll quote it:
Ihave seen an advanced copy of the supplement, and can confirm what it has for Dark Eldar: not much. Both Eldar and Dark Eldar each get their own flyer-only formation. The Eldar one is decent, the Dark Eldar one not so much. However, the book will also include a generic flyer detachment that can be used by any faction, and that one seems like it will be more useful to the DE.
Eff - really assumed the battle report portion of the WD would have leaked by now : ) ... the rumour sites are really teasing this one out for those clicks!
the Signless wrote: What I am concerned about with this supplement is that it is going to allow people to remove models before they even see the table. No one (okay maybe some weird people) likes to pack up all their models, travel down to the store, arrange a game, then not get to put their painted models on the table because they were "shot in reserves".
Apparently you have never deep-strike misshaped? Honestly, what is the difference?
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: What if flying mc's lost the hard to hit rule? Suddenly they aren't head and shoulders above regular flyers...
Never gonna happen.
Why not? They aren't faster than fast skimmers or jetbikes, they can gain a cover save from being in area terrain (meaning they are atnleast as low as knee high grass) and would still gain jink and the better movement they do now. Hell, they are already able to be targeted by templates with skyfire (with as many of those you see around...)
Let them charge the turn they drop and keep their skyfire/ vector strike and suddenly they have a niche within the game somewhere between skimmer and actual flyers.
One single sentence in the rules of this supplement does all of that.
It won't happen because it would reduce the strength of MCs, and we know that GW won't ever do that.
Let's not pretend MCs and FMCs haven't been nerfed since 6th. Smash got made worse and Melee FMCs were made utterly terrible unless you have a psyker with Invisibility or other way of buffing its survivability.
They may not be massive nerfs, but they're nerfs (and really, MC's don't need a nerf in general, vehicles need a buff).
This is preposterous. FMC is BY FAR the most imbalanced unit type. They have a laundry list of exceptions to the rules every other unit type must play by and then some more. Regular MC's are in an OK spot but FMC's are ridiculous, there is a reason why it is a no brainer to take the winged version of any MC available every time, it's broken. Hell, please explain to me why a FMC is hard to hit, but has no problem returning fire under those same conditions? Right, because the rules are plain silly and imbalanced. Make FMC skyfire only when swooping and we are getting somewhere, remove toe in cover while swooping and we have just about arrived.
Red Corsair wrote: This is preposterous. FMC is BY FAR the most imbalanced unit type. They have a laundry list of exceptions to the rules every other unit type must play by and then some more. Regular MC's are in an OK spot but FMC's are ridiculous, there is a reason why it is a no brainer to take the winged version of any MC available every time, it's broken. Hell, please explain to me why a FMC is hard to hit, but has no problem returning fire under those same conditions? Right, because the rules are plain silly and imbalanced. Make FMC skyfire only when swooping and we are getting somewhere, remove toe in cover while swooping and we have just about arrived.
He didn't say they were balanced. He said they have been hit by nerfbat _which is provenly true_ so claiming GW will never nerf them is markedly false statement.
And his second point(CCFMC's are crap) seems to be also fairly solid point. Don't recall high level list with one that I can remember. FMC's with guns yes. FMC's that rely on CC to do anything no. Having to wait turn without flying protection is pretty rough. So FMC's are either psykers or shooters...
Also, you have to remember that FMC's are 2x or even 3x more expensive than your average vehicle flyer most times. Although I do agree the toe in cover while swooping gives cover is a dumb rule.
FMCs are not much more resilient then vehicle flyers in my experience. Especially against dedicated AA or ignore cover rules.
I had a thought; they said there is going to be a flyer phase, right?
So what if it works like in drop zone commander, where the flyer shows up on the table, do its thing, and goes back into reserves?
It would certainly act more like a flyer that way. The current system is kind of weird; its as if they can't decide whether they want the units to be relatively slow gunships or fighter jets.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: It would certainly act more like a flyer that way.
The current system is kind of weird; its as if they can't decide whether they want the units to be relatively slow gunships or fighter jets.
If we are going to have flyers in 40K, we need a way to have both. There's no reason why we couldn't have rules for Gunships, Jets, and, heck, actual hovering things and wing-flapping beasties.
I already have my copy of the book, and after a quick go-through:
(As usual, translations may not be 100% correct)
- There is a new detachment:
Air Superiority Detachment
Is formed by 1-3 Flyer Wings*
Restrictions: All models have to be chosen from the same faction
Benefits:
- Air commander; If the commander of the Wing is in reserves, re-roll interception, If you have superiority and your Chief is in Reservers you add +2 to your reserve rolls instead of 1.
- Combined formation: You choose to make a single reserve roll for the whole formation if you want.
- Transport that have the hover mode have the Objetive secured rule.
Of course I need to read the book to know what it all means.
All the existing flyers have the same point costs and rules as in their current codex.
The stormhawk costs 125 points and comes with: Twin linked assault cannon, twin linked heavy bolter, "super laser thing" (24", S9, AP2, Heavy 2), Ceraminte plating, and one Ãtem that allow the stormhawk reroll when jinking. Has the supersonic special rule.
May exchange the laser thing for an Icurus Cannon for 155 points. May exchange the heavy bolter for a Typhoon missile launcher for +20 points or for a Celestial hammer missile thrower for +5 points.
Now I have to go, but will be back in one hour and a half (aprox).
(Cannot translate the ork weapons)
Twin-linked 36", S8, AP2, Heavy 1, Blast, Gets hot
1x 36" S1D6+4, AP1, Heavy1
5++ vs one single hit each enemy shooting phase (May be exchanged for an ork energy shield 5++ to be bearer and all models at 6" for +25 points)
Originally Posted by lordbeefy
and can other chapters....BA and SW etc use them?
Looks like, but they have to be taken as part of the detachment mentioned before.
The book says that all the flyers described in this book replace their Data Sheets in all the current codex. Seems that this rules are coming to stay.
I am thinking this is mistranslated, but the Stormhawk appears to be 125 pts with the Las-Talon, TL Assault Cannon, and TLHB. It can purchase Icarus Stormcannon for 25 pts to replace the Las-Talon, Skyhammer Missile Launcher for 5 pts or Typhoon Missile Launchers for 20 pts to replace the TLHBs.
Well that was a missed opportunity to fix flyer costs. Pity. We'll have to see if the rules themselves do it. But I really don't want to add another phase to the game. Thankfully flyers are fairly few and far between nowadays.
Seriously, the datasheets have not changed at all (according to Iuchiban). So if none of both players actually has the rules, how and why should you use the new sheets? It is just three new 'stats' - and they are needed for DftS only - if you dont know/have it, skip the new stuff entirely.
Oh GW! The answer to improving sales long term is always new products to buy, not changes that make your existing stock more desirable!
But, on a serious note, I am super excited to see exactly how all of these new phase rules work, and I am cautiously hopeful that the Blood Angels, and other non C:SMs, might finally have access to the other SM flyers.
I like these additional rules. It will be used in our group (where we dont need more than 1 book). It is more fun with the current stuff and I am looking forward to the details as currently flyers are a bit boring gameplay-wise.
Warhams-77 wrote: Seriously, the datasheets have not changed at all (according to Iuchiban). So if none of both players actually has the rules, how and why should you use the new sheets? It is just three new 'stats' - and they are needed for DftS only - if you dont know/have it, skip the new stuff entirely.
Don't one of the new stats add to a Flyer's movement? So it's possible it could make some flyers more cost effective.
Warhams-77 wrote: Seriously, the datasheets have not changed at all (according to Iuchiban). So if none of both players actually has the rules, how and why should you use the new sheets? It is just three new 'stats' - and they are needed for DftS only - if you dont know/have it, skip the new stuff entirely.
Don't one of the new stats add to a Flyer's movement? So it's possible it could make some flyers more cost effective.
Uriels_Flame wrote: Need more clarification... hoping Grey Knights can take storm hawks.
Also since we lost psybolt ammo, what is the difference between GK/BA/SM stormravens?
From the looks of it, BA and GK won't get the Stormhawk, but perhaps their Stormravens have different rules.
That's how it looks. Perhaps they'll get minor buffs to the new abilities, to make up for being the only ones that BAs and GKs can take. Otherwise, it looks like we just got screwed again.
Uriels_Flame wrote: Need more clarification... hoping Grey Knights can take storm hawks.
Also since we lost psybolt ammo, what is the difference between GK/BA/SM stormravens?
From the looks of it, BA and GK won't get the Stormhawk, but perhaps their Stormravens have different rules.
That's how it looks. Perhaps they'll get minor buffs to the new abilities, to make up for being the only ones that BAs and GKs can take. Otherwise, it looks like we just got screwed again.
My guess is the BA Stormravens are more maneuverable than the others.
All Flyers have now three new Atributes: Combat Role, Pursuit and Agility (the more the better)
When shooting there are two types of targes: Ground and flying. Flying targets are FMC, other Flyers, Jetbikes and Grav vehicles. The rest are ground targets.
New rule: Air superiority: If a player has Flyers in Reserve at the end of the Aerial Duel Phase can add +1/-1 to their reserve rolls. Opponent has -1 to reserve rolls.
Any flyer can now make an additional pivot at any point of ther movement if they roll their Agility or less in a single D6.
Only Flyers with the Attack Role can have AA when shooting, but they have -1 BS when shooting Ground Targets.
Flyers do not benefit from cover (Terrain or other models)
When moving Flat Out you can add your Pursuit to the distance
The different combat roles give different bonusses depending on the type of the Attack Pattern.
There are 6 different attack patterns. If I could post a picture of the patterns I would do it, but I think that it is forbidden ...
Air Superiority sounds like a good way to inspire sales. I'm assuming if you control the skies, all of your opponents reserves get -1. I wonder if FMCs count towards that?
All Flyers have now three new Atributes: Combat Role, Pursuit and Agility (the more the better)
When shooting there are two types of targes: Ground and flying. Flying targets are FMC, other Flyers, Jetbikes and Grav vehicles. The rest are ground targets.
New rule: Air superiority: If a player has Flyers in Reserve at the end of the Aerial Duel Phase can add +1/-1 to their reserve rolls. Opponent has -1 to reserve rolls.
Any flyer can now make an additional pivot at any point of ther movement if they roll their Agility or less in a single D6.
Only Flyers with the Attack Role can have AA when shooting, but they have -1 BS when shooting Ground Targets.
Flyers do not benefit from cover (Terrain or other models)
When moving Flat Out you can add your Pursuit to the distance
The different combat roles give different bonusses depending on the type of the Attack Pattern.
There are 6 different attack patterns. If I could post a picture of the patterns I would do it, but I think that it is forbidden ...
Stormhawk appears to use the same cockpit bottom as the Stormtalon, so swapping the enclosed cockpit for the original seems to be an option. Yay for me, at least.
As an IG player why the hell would I buy a 58$ book that nerfs one of the only decent units, and then forgets to include the other units that could support it?
I'm sorry but, I was looking forward to this, and am now appalled.
The Vendetta could be on the same datasheet as the Valkyrie
Automatically Appended Next Post: Iuchiban - Warseer
To sumarize a litte bit:
Duel Phase happens at the beginning of each Player's turn. It is optional. It only involves Flyers in reserve or active reserves. If a player wants to skip the phase, roll a d6. Winner decides.
I would like to pre-order this for all the fliers (and pretty pictures) but I'm hoping GK have some options. If we can only take Stormravens, does that mean we can fly it in 3 different modes or is it one mode only and we just have to use it for what it is...
Uriels_Flame wrote: I would like to pre-order this for all the fliers (and pretty pictures) but I'm hoping GK have some options. If we can only take Stormravens, does that mean we can fly it in 3 different modes or is it one mode only and we just have to use it for what it is...
I am hoping for the same thing for Blood Angels. We(BA and GK) had the original Stormravens, we should be able to use them well beyond what anyone else can.
Gamgee wrote: So I was right. Move along nothing but crap rules that fixes nothing and adds nothing of value to anything.
Sadly I have to agree. Another attempt by GW to make some gimmick that is basically shoehorning rules onto models that weren't designed with them in mind. Dakkajets for example are actually rather terrible Air to Air fighters and far better at attacking ground targets as they can only glance AV12 flyers which are usually the things that need dedicated skyfire to take down or at least force jinking.
Gamgee wrote: So I was right. Move along nothing but crap rules that fixes nothing and adds nothing of value to anything.
Sadly I have to agree. Another attempt by GW to make some gimmick that is basically shoehorning rules onto models that weren't designed with them in mind. Dakkajets for example are actually rather terrible Air to Air fighters and far better at attacking ground targets as they can only glance AV12 flyers which are usually the things that need dedicated skyfire to take down or at least force jinking.
Yeah I'm pretty disappointed too. I love me some dogfights. Hell my profile picture is the insignia of the Flying Tigers
Gamgee wrote: So I was right. Move along nothing but crap rules that fixes nothing and adds nothing of value to anything.
Sadly I have to agree. Another attempt by GW to make some gimmick that is basically shoehorning rules onto models that weren't designed with them in mind. Dakkajets for example are actually rather terrible Air to Air fighters and far better at attacking ground targets as they can only glance AV12 flyers which are usually the things that need dedicated skyfire to take down or at least force jinking.
Yea. Especially if now "attack" aircraft are -1 BS against ground targets, or BS1. A lot of good a gun is going to do if it only hits once in six tries. I was thinking about getting the new kit and magnetizing it. Thanks GW for saving me the money.
Sledgehammer wrote: As an IG player why the hell would I buy a 58$ book that nerfs one of the only decent units, and then forgets to include the other units that could support it?
I'm sorry but, I was looking forward to this, and am now appalled.
I'm happy with it.
The Valkyrie and Vendetta never had any business being able to engage enemy aircraft without a specialized loadout.
Sledgehammer wrote: As an IG player why the hell would I buy a 58$ book that nerfs one of the only decent units, and then forgets to include the other units that could support it?
I'm sorry but, I was looking forward to this, and am now appalled.
I'm happy with it.
The Valkyrie and Vendetta never had any business being able to engage enemy aircraft without a specialized loadout.
Any forward firing gun that has a variable convergence is and can be a dedicated anti aircraft weapon. The problem is never the weapon, but rather the bearing of them. A head on engagement is one where that is no longer an issue. Something the Flying Tigers themselves used to their advantage in China.
As long as you don't engage in a turning dogfight, a forward firing weapon is just as effective as it would be on any other aircraft.
Furthermore why shouldn't two assault fighters be able to have skyfire against each other? They are on a level playing field concerning their capabilities after all.
Well, confirmed that it's the same concept as the old Death From The Skies "rules", which were absolute garbage that nobody ever used. I can't wait to see the inevitable inclusion of the old statement about how you should just roll a D3 to see what move your pilot picks, because there's no advantage to be gained from making a smart choice.
There's a quote directly from luchiban that says that the phase is optional and that you can choose to skip it. No one is forcing anyone to do this, even if both players bring flyers.
Requizen wrote: There's a quote directly from luchiban that says that the phase is optional and that you can choose to skip it. No one is forcing anyone to do this, even if both players bring flyers.
Bingo this is nearly exactly the same as the old death from skies book just updated.
If you ignored the last book just ignore tribe current book it makes absolutely no difference.
However whole the Rock Paper Scissors phase is optional is the combat role and new stats optional?
Do all attack planes lose -1 bs vs ground targets?
Does pursuit still add to movement?
Does agility still give a chance for another pivot?
The scissors-paper-rock think seems pointless. The mechanic should be just a quick dice roll.
Honestly if Bombers don't get a really good trait this all seems pointless. If Bombers get something good like ignores cover then these rules have at least some promise. Not that I want to see more ignores cover in the game.
Oh god. I just got the models for the BA spearhead formation (the one with 3 stormravens). They arrive turn one. Which means my opponent will have air superiority and my reserves (the whole reason to play this formation) will get delayed. Damn you GW! Don't ruin my army before I get to use it! Hopefully there is an advantage to having your flyers arrive before your opponent or as others have said, this supplement gets ignored like the last "death from the skies". Funny how the community just automatically accepted stronghold assault but rejected death from the skies. Even the major tournaments.
mercury14 wrote: If only one wants to skip though, the other can try to force it.
Then don't play that person. Simple as that.
I don't think it's meant as a case of someone trying to force you to play the death from the skies rule set. I think if you've agreed to play the rule set, you can still try to refuse to take part in the dog fight, ie you can try to evade it. You roll off and if the other guy catches you, he catches you.
From that standpoint it sounds kind of fun. I can definitely see where they were trying to go with all this, a lot of it seems to sound like it has potential to be a good idea. But when you put it into the practicalities of an already fairly complicated game, I think it's just going to be too much.
I might get this, I might not. I really haven't decided yet.
mercury14 wrote: If only one wants to skip though, the other can try to force it.
Then don't play that person. Simple as that.
I don't think it's meant as a case of someone trying to force you to play the death from the skies rule set. I think if you've agreed to play the rule set, you can still try to refuse to take part in the dog fight, ie you can try to evade it. You roll off and if the other guy catches you, he catches you.
From that standpoint it sounds kind of fun. I can definitely see where they were trying to go with all this, a lot of it seems to sound like it has potential to be a good idea. But when you put it into the practicalities of an already fairly complicated game, I think it's just going to be too much.
I might get this, I might not. I really haven't decided yet.
Oh, I think I understand now. I thought the poster was saying the other player would force things in that they would throw a tantrum if the other player didn't use the rules. This makes a lot more sense.
Looks to be a disappointing book and model release. Not sure yet if I'll bother picking up the new Ork flyer. Quite disappointing that it also means the other flyer kits get bumped up in price even though they won't be using the added sprue.
Don't think anyone knows at this point. I'd be interested to see how Nids are treated, since all their stuff is made up of living organisms. Necrons only have a strike fighter and a troop transport at the moment, but I'd love to see how the Night Shroud bomber ends up.
Don't think anyone knows at this point. I'd be interested to see how Nids are treated, since all their stuff is made up of living organisms. Necrons only have a strike fighter and a troop transport at the moment, but I'd love to see how the Night Shroud bomber ends up.
Oh? I thought it was already confirmed no FMCs, just flying vehicles?
Just finished buying, assembling, and priming 4 Stormtalons for 2 Raptors wing formations.
And now nurfing them after ONE game.
Well played GW. Well played.
Also, while we're at it, here is the arbitrary CSM whine about knocking the Heldrake even further out of the sky and off the tables.... now we have ZERO anti air.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Just finished buying, assembling, and priming 4 Stormtalons for 2 Raptors wing formations.
And now nurfing them after ONE game.
Well played GW. Well played.
Also, while we're at it, here is the arbitrary CSM whine about knocking the Heldrake even further out of the sky and off the tables.... now we have ZERO anti air.
If the rules are clunky or bad (which is what seems to be the case so far) I think most people will ignore the supplement and just use the rules for the two new flyers if they are taken. Rock, paper, scissors dog fights isn't exactly an interesting mechanic.
It's not an interesting mechanic but it amounts to a nice buff for flyers.
Now you have a reason to take flyers (reserve bonus and penalty for opponent) and a thing for them to do in reserves (shoot at each other if desired). I'm glad it's not super complex.
And I like the new Ork flyer. If bombers get ignores cover or something like it I'll be happy as a clam with my blitza bommer.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Just finished buying, assembling, and priming 4 Stormtalons for 2 Raptors wing formations.
And now nurfing them after ONE game.
Well played GW. Well played.
Also, while we're at it, here is the arbitrary CSM whine about knocking the Heldrake even further out of the sky and off the tables.... now we have ZERO anti air.
Chaos marines have the Hellblade fighter, Hellblade Fighter-Bomber, Heldrake, and the Blight Drone. Plus AA missiles on missile launchers. Hardly ZERO AA.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Just finished buying, assembling, and priming 4 Stormtalons for 2 Raptors wing formations.
And now nurfing them after ONE game.
Well played GW. Well played.
Also, while we're at it, here is the arbitrary CSM whine about knocking the Heldrake even further out of the sky and off the tables.... now we have ZERO anti air.
Chaos marines have the Hellblade fighter, Hellblade Fighter-Bomber, Heldrake, and the Blight Drone. Plus AA missiles on missile launchers. Hardly ZERO AA.
And how many of those are actually featured in the new supplement? And really, Flakk missiles? They cost a bomb and only put out a single S7 shot.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Just finished buying, assembling, and priming 4 Stormtalons for 2 Raptors wing formations.
And now nurfing them after ONE game.
Well played GW. Well played.
Also, while we're at it, here is the arbitrary CSM whine about knocking the Heldrake even further out of the sky and off the tables.... now we have ZERO anti air.
Hopefully the Stormtalons will still be a good little unit. Especially in that formation. Strafing run will be their saving grace.
the_scotsman wrote: It's not an interesting mechanic but it amounts to a nice buff for flyers.
Now you have a reason to take flyers (reserve bonus and penalty for opponent) and a thing for them to do in reserves (shoot at each other if desired). I'm glad it's not super complex.
The reserve penalty/bonus is deeply underwhelming. Opponents can simply not have reserves and even if they do, it's only a 1/6 chance that this will make a difference. And drop pods mostly come in turn 1 no matter what.
If these rules allowed flyers to take shots at drop pods on their way in, that would have been something. This is a major missed opportunity for GW to have done something cool, interesting, and strategic. Instead we got a dumb scissors-paper-rock chart and an underwhelming Air Superiority feature.
Does Gauss glancing not work on snap shots? Been ages since I played against Necrons so I can't remember.
Yes, but tesla multiple hits don't. It used to be worth snap firing tesla destructors from Annihilation Barges. Not quite as good as an actual skyifire weapon, but better than the nothing they now have.
Does Gauss glancing not work on snap shots? Been ages since I played against Necrons so I can't remember.
Yes, but tesla multiple hits don't. It used to be worth snap firing tesla destructors from Annihilation Barges. Not quite as good as an actual skyifire weapon, but better than the nothing they now have.
Okay. I knew about the tesla snapshot nerf but thought that maybe they had changed Gauss as well.
My hats off to GW. A great looking sm flyer that I really want. All of the previous ones (excluding FW) were too ugly to find a place on my gaming board, let alone fly.
A Town Called Malus wrote: And really, Flakk missiles? They cost a bomb and only put out a single S7 shot.
That's a single S7 shot more than Necrons now have. Tesla used to be their anti-air, but that was nerfed too...
Does Gauss glancing not work on snap shots? Been ages since I played against Necrons so I can't remember.
It does work, but tesla isn't gauss. Tesla used to be a decent solution for ground based anti air, as you generated more hits on a 6, which is what snap shots were.
Disappointed that GW have stopped selling the Stormtalon by itself. I could understand why brick and mortar shops would only stock the Hawk, but I had hoped they would keep it on there webstore(Ditto for the Ork jets).
And what the new ork formation are / special rules ?
The stormhawk costs 125 points and comes with: Twin linked assault cannon, twin linked heavy bolter, "super laser thing" (24", S9, AP2, Heavy 2), Ceraminte plating, and one Ãtem that allow the stormhawk reroll when jinking. Has the supersonic special rule.
May exchange the laser thing for an Icurus Cannon for 155 points. May exchange the heavy bolter for a Typhoon missile launcher for +20 points or for a Celestial hammer missile thrower for +5 points.
About the ork flyer:
140 points 12/10/10 3HP
(Cannot translate the ork weapons)
Twin-linked 36", S8, AP2, Heavy 1, Blast, Gets hot
1x 36" S1D6+4, AP1, Heavy1
5++ vs one single hit each enemy shooting phase (May be exchanged for an ork energy shield 5++ to be bearer and all models at 6" for +25 points)
and can other chapters....BA and SW etc use them?
Looks like, but they have to be taken as part of the detachment mentioned before.
The book says that all the flyers described in this book replace their Data Sheets in all the current codex. Seems that this rules are coming to stay.
I think it wasn't posted here yet? A poster on Warseer going by the name in inq.serge is claiming to have the book and said the following:
inq.serge wrote:Bought mine today. When are they supposed to release it anyway?
On Attack patterns:
2 planes:
->
>-
*one gets +1bs (against appropriate target) and +1 to jink save.
3 planes:
-----
>>>
-----
* Flat out and Shoot/bomb (appropriate target) at full bs
>--
-->
>--
* Tank hunter vs appropriate target / Reroll to pen rolls with bombs
->-
->-
->-
* Shooting/Bombs Ignore cover vs appropriate target
4 planes:
-->--
---->
-->--
->---
* one gets +1bs (against appropriate target) and +1 to jink save. + all get Tank hunter vs appropriate target / Reroll to pen rolls with bombs and Shooting/Bombs Ignore cover vs appropriate target
>-->
-----
>-->
* 4++, IWND, Interceptor (on all)
->-
->-
->-
->-
* Pick one unit that all 4 planes have LoS to. PERMANENT preferred enemy against ANY unit of it's kind. (I.E: You pick ONE Tactical squad, You get permanent Preferred Enemy on ALL Tactical squads for the rest of the battle).
All planes in the attack pattern must be from same formation or attack wing.
Attack wing: 2-4 planes (all same). Flyers can now be bought in units of 1-4 per slot, but they only count as attack wing if they are 2+. Attack wings may use Attack patterns. One flyer gets "Wing leader", wich is a free "Fighter ace" equivalent. Fighter ace, as we know it, is not in the book, instead, it's a campaign bonus. (There are 3 bonuses to randomize from on the wing leader table. The campaign fighter ace has 6, and you can earn all 6 by becoming a Top Gun (Kill 30 flyers during a campaign without dying)).
NOTE: Flyers from same attack wing do not follow rules for squadrons, or count as a single unit, nor do they need to be in coherency. (unless they want to benefit from attack patterns.)
The flyer detachment consists 1-3 attack wings. All from same codex/faction. (Formations count as attack wings).
So now, you can have a pair of any flyer as a separate detachment!
I.E: on attack wings.
2-4 razorwings is an attack wing.
2-4 voidravens is an attackwing.
1 razorwing + 1 voidraven is not an attack wing, and thus, can't benefit from attack patterns.
3 razorwings + 1 voidraven, the razorwings is an attack wing, the voidraven isn't.
However, there's a 2 Razor-2 voidraven formation, where they all count as the same attack wing, and thus benefit from attack patterns.
On appropriate targets: flying targets for fighters , ground targets for attack craft.
He also said that the Vendetta upgrade is no more...
Oh joy, more formation types that demand you to clutter up the table with more models.
I would wish they would bring back epic and make the game more like 40k in pre 6th ed. It was much more simple back then, and the table didn't look like a cluttered mess with all the formations and the apoc units.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Oh joy, more formation types that demand you to clutter up the table with more models.
I would wish they would bring back epic and make the game more like 40k in pre 6th ed. It was much more simple back then, and the table didn't look like a cluttered mess with all the formations and the apoc units.
Totally agree. While the flyer models are nice, there's no real need for them in a 28mm game.
inq.serge wrote:The dog-fight rules only mention Flyers. So I doubt about FMC.
Haven't looked up the vendetta (even though I have a vendetta myself. I HAVE 12 FLYERS!)
There are 6 flyer missions/Scenarios, and a mini-campaign. There's the Flyer detachment, but no rules for turn 1 entry (unless there's something in the missions.). So,unless you play craftworlders with FW, and have a pair of lynxes, who may start on the table, all-flyers is a no-go.
Wing leaders are pretty much on par, but slightly worse, than the old fighter aces. There are different for every army, (even for different flyers in some cases), but they are on par with +1bs vs appropriate target.
Bale flamer does what Jon Snow knows: Nothing. The whole dog fight phase, is; You roll to see who's the attacker, the attacker picks one of his flyers (Usually a fighter), and one of the enemies (Usually a
bomber, unless facing DE shenanigans), and both must be in reserve. Then you roll dice and bluff to decide distance between the flyers, facing (Gives bonuses. If a non-fighter outmanoeuvres an enemy, it may shoot at full BS, otherwise only snap. Fighters may always shoot at full BS.), Facing affects which facing you hit and what weapons you may fire (Suddenly, rear mounted weapons got relevant), and then, who shoots first (And only shoot! No Vector strikes! Templates can't hit flyers!). If one goes down: 2-5 It's ded! All passengers ded to!, 1: Opponent places the downed flyer in downed flyers deployment zone, no closer than 1" from units, then roll for crash and burn. on a 6; same, but you place your downed flier in the opponents deployment zone.
1 dogfight per turns, so even if you have 5 planes and your opponent 3, only 1 per side will dogfight per turn.
inq.serge wrote:Necrons are not as fast as eldar, but fast, however, they're not manoeuvrable, slightly more than the flying furrie containers.
Their formation lets you "Teleport" vehicles like their transport fliers teleport footsoldiers.
inq.serge wrote:Flyer wings are 2-4 of the same flyer, or a flyer formation (of usually 4 flyers).
The Furry formation gives movement bonuses for things assaulting from the transports, and movement penalties to those hit by snowballs.
Fighters are the only ones who get to keep skyfire, but get -1bs vs ground. (the rest only snap at flyers)
inq.serge wrote:Time to start smashing the panic button; It's not in!!! (Note: He's talking about the Vendetta)
Also; Bombers differ in being worse at dogfights and getting other bonuses from attack patterns.
inq.serge wrote:1; The 2-flyer attack pattern gives bombers +1st on their bombs, not +1bs. And only Bombs, no other weapons.
2; Attack patterns start once you end a movement phase in that pattern, and lasts until the end of your next movement phase. Thus; Bombers won't benefit from their attack pattern bonuses (I.E: ignore cover) on their bombing runs when they arrive from reserve, AND, almost all their attack pattern bonuses only apply to their bombs. Bombers truly got the short stick here.
3: Stunned/shaken fliers also temporarily lower their Pursuit/Agility to 0.
I'm not sure if everything he said make sense, but I'm too tired to do more than just mechanically copying everything here.
The more I read this, the more I like it. The Orks have the best anti-air in the game (traktor kannon) and 4 flyers in formation are going to be awfully hard to place among 100 grots.
My god the Dark Eldar flyers are bad under these rules. Horrid. The Razorwing has a load of blast missiles and poison that it can't even shoot at flyers and somehow that makes it a Fighter. And it gets BS3 to hit ground targets now.
The Void Raven was the better AA flyer and now it lost skyfire. And since it's in the Bomber role it gets no bonuses... other than a potential squadron bonus of a puny +1S on its single bomb (except it can't use it the turn it comes in. The Void raven went from irrelevant to utter crap. Wow. Just... Wow...
Looking at Forgeworld, the Phoenix Bomber doesn't have any bombs. So it will literally lose skyfire and get *nothing*. And it was overpriced to begin with. Glad I just started painting one up.
So if I understand all this right, GW managed the impossible by finding a way to make Heldrakes even worse and more overcosted relative to other fliers?
Virules wrote: So if I understand all this right, GW managed the impossible by finding a way to make Heldrakes even worse and more overcosted relative to other fliers?
This whole book seems poorly thought out. Like "rules don't matter because people don't actually play out game" poorly thought out.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Oh joy, more formation types that demand you to clutter up the table with more models.
I would wish they would bring back epic and make the game more like 40k in pre 6th ed. It was much more simple back then, and the table didn't look like a cluttered mess with all the formations and the apoc units.
Totally agree. While the flyer models are nice, there's no real need for them in a 28mm game.
As units, I agree. They make awesome terrain though! My most prized piece of scenery is a downed Valkyrie that I made (wrecked?) my self.
mercury14 wrote: My god the Dark Eldar flyers are bad under these rules. Horrid. The Razorwing has a load of blast missiles and poison that it can't even shoot at flyers and somehow that makes it a Fighter. And it gets BS3 to hit ground targets now.
The Void Raven was the better AA flyer and now it lost skyfire. And since it's in the Bomber role it gets no bonuses... other than a potential squadron bonus of a puny +1S on its single bomb (except it can't use it the turn it comes in. The Void raven went from irrelevant to utter crap. Wow. Just... Wow...
Looking at Forgeworld, the Phoenix Bomber doesn't have any bombs. So it will literally lose skyfire and get *nothing*. And it was overpriced to begin with. Glad I just started painting one up.
Wow.
Yeah that sounds about right - lovely models so crap rules but hey we got yet another marine flyer so its all good.............
Virules wrote: So if I understand all this right, GW managed the impossible by finding a way to make Heldrakes even worse and more overcosted relative to other fliers?
So, exactly how everything should be, because, "screw Chaos", right?!
Virules wrote: So if I understand all this right, GW managed the impossible by finding a way to make Heldrakes even worse and more overcosted relative to other fliers?
The Chaos hate continues...
So if I read that right, there's no reason to take a baleflamer anymore? Simply bizarre...
Virules wrote: So if I understand all this right, GW managed the impossible by finding a way to make Heldrakes even worse and more overcosted relative to other fliers?
The Chaos hate continues...
So if I read that right, there's no reason to take a baleflamer anymore? Simply bizarre...
From what I'm reading, it seems like there's every reason to simply ignore this book, apart from the stats on the new planes, if you want to use them.
Urgh. Maybe it's because I actually like aircraft IRL and like actual aircraft based table top games..... but the dogfight rules sound horrible. The perfect (sarcastically) mix of randomness and rock paper scissors.
From what was stated the new book replaces all the rules for fliers and adds scenarios etc. I sure hope they get 40k on boars like the AoS app so items can get updated easier.
Virules wrote: So if I understand all this right, GW managed the impossible by finding a way to make Heldrakes even worse and more overcosted relative to other fliers?
The Chaos hate continues...
So if I read that right, there's no reason to take a baleflamer anymore? Simply bizarre...
I may have missed something, but this makes no sense to me. The bale flamer still works exactly as it did, it never could engage other fliers and still cannot. Nothing leaked suggested it couldn't engage ground targets.
So in summary it is quite the opposite, there is every reason to take the bale flamer.
There are other armies that got it much worse.
Also I just want to thank you guys for the token chaos complaining session
Basically it means the Bale-Drake is a free target in the Dogfight phase, and is useless when it comes to participating in it unless you take (comparatively terrible) default Hades Autocannon.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Basically it means the Bale-Drake is a free target in the Dogfight phase, and is useless when it comes to participating in it unless you take (comparatively terrible) default Hades Autocannon.
Well the rest of the army is pretty much a free target in every other phase so par for course amirite?
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Basically it means the Bale-Drake is a free target in the Dogfight phase, and is useless when it comes to participating in it unless you take (comparatively terrible) default Hades Autocannon.
Learn it, live it, love it.
This is how your Baleflamer will still be effective, despite the fact that it's not a Fighter.
This is how your Baleflamer will still be effective, despite the fact that it's not a Fighter.
The Helldrake can't use weapons in the dogfight phase because it's a flamer. And since dogfighting is handled abstractly with no movement it can't fly over anything to vector strike.
It's just a big goose flying around with red dots on it.
Isn't the dogfight sub phase ignored 50% of the time if one side does not want to do it?
How many strict fighters are going to be taken when they are -1 bs to ground targets and there is no guarantee your opponent will take a flyer themselves to make the fighter worthwhile.
How many armored flyers are currently taken en mass, before the new rules 'nerf' them? Not many? In 9 games at Adepticon I played against one army that had one armored flyer. That was it.
There are lots of reasons flyers aren't taken in competitive environments, the largest one being that games often go just four turns making flyers not on the board enough to be worth it.
We made it 18 pages before the Chaos whining started, a new record!
Throw in some Tau whining, and we have ourselves a thread!
Does the Stormhawk have AV12? Or three hull points? If so it might be worth the ten points over a Stormtalon, especially since it can get a decent Lascannon baseline.
Crazyterran wrote: We made it 18 pages before the Chaos whining started, a new record!
Throw in some Tau whining, and we have ourselves a thread!
Does the Stormhawk have AV12? Or three hull points? If so it might be worth the ten points over a Stormtalon, especially since it can get a decent Lascannon baseline.
For the most part, it seems like Tau are uninterested. The Fliers are fluff/casual models, and don't really see a lot of play. The book seems unlikely to change that. We've got plenty of AA should other people desire to bring fliers. The only real downside is that our skimmers are now air targets, but our skimmers don't see much use anyway. In other words, Tau are unlikely to see much dogfight phase, and won't suffer much from new flier influx.
I'm confused as to why people think the hell drake is going to become useless? Aren't ground attacks going to be at -1bs? That won't effect how a bale flamer works against ground targets as its a template. In fact that sounds like a bonus for the heldrake in comparison to other flyers.
General Kroll wrote: I'm confused as to why people think the hell drake is going to become useless? Aren't ground attacks going to be at -1bs? That won't effect how a bale flamer works against ground targets as its a template. In fact that sounds like a bonus for the heldrake in comparison to other flyers.
Or have I missed something?
I'm guessing is the whole dogfighting mechanic means the Heldrake can't hurt the opponent so it will basically always lose the fight which means its going to end up having to jink during said dogfight to survive and/or end up shaken or destroyed so it can't use its flamer.
General Kroll wrote: I'm confused as to why people think the hell drake is going to become useless? Aren't ground attacks going to be at -1bs? That won't effect how a bale flamer works against ground targets as its a template. In fact that sounds like a bonus for the heldrake in comparison to other flyers.
Or have I missed something?
I'm guessing is the whole dogfighting mechanic means the Heldrake can't hurt the opponent so it will basically always lose the fight which means its going to end up having to jink during said dogfight to survive and/or end up shaken or destroyed so it can't use its flamer.
I guess that would make things problematic. Do we know for sure that jinking in these off table dogfights will effect flyers once they come onto the table?
So, who wants to bet that the Stormtalon/Raven are going to be attack craft (aka no Skyfire) while the Stormhawk is a flyer, so if you wanted a dedicated AA plane (as marines) you have to buy the new model?
Gamgee wrote: I just want to know what the formation in the book does. The Tau one.
Okay so the Dark Eldar formation requires two Razorwings and a Void Raven Bomber... and the bonus is interceptor.
Except when it wants to use interceptor it's at crappy BS3 because most stuff will be on the ground (drop pods, etc). Not only that but interceptor doesn't work turn one on pods (or turn 2 if you go second) because the fliers will be in reserve.
Wow. Terrible. How could they not think this through even a little bit?
mercury14 wrote: Except when it wants to use interceptor it's at crappy BS3 because most stuff will be on the ground (drop pods, etc). Not only that but interceptor doesn't work turn one on pods (or turn 2 if you go second) because the fliers will be in reserve.
Hay, be fair! Interceptor won't work on any turn, because you've only got a 45 degree fire arc.
Swampmist wrote: You can't use a Baleflamer on a Flyer, and you can't VectorStrike during the Dogfight Phase...
That you know of.
Remember that the Heldrake is one of the new updated items, and we don't know the new datasheet.
Yes we do because no datasheets were updated with anything more than the new agility and pursuit values. White Dwarf set us up for disappointment.
We don't know that, actually. I've not seen anything from the book, have you?
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Crazyterran wrote: So, who wants to bet that the Stormtalon/Raven are going to be attack craft (aka no Skyfire) while the Stormhawk is a flyer, so if you wanted a dedicated AA plane (as marines) you have to buy the new model?
Kan, we know that there aren't updated datasheets. People have asked that question to those with the book and gotten an answer. If the flyers themselves were updated that would be huge news that was immediately shared.
To be fair it makes perfect sense for the Stormtalon to be an attack flyer, it's a helicopter gunship equivilant after all. It's going to be going after ground targets. Hence the strafing run rule.
It's a shame there is no middle of the road option for things like Stormravens and Valkyries.
... for me either a new flier or something else we haven't spoiled out yet from the new kits
