105165
Post by: rvd1ofakind
Pedroig wrote:On Knights, Battle Cannon is about 1.5 times better than Thermal Cannon at damage applied to the enemy from T4 to T8 regardless of saves, on average... And that's within 18", outside, it's not even close, over double...
Yeah... It's so hard to fit it in the list tho :x
And it makes an "all eggs in one basket". Eh, maybe I just got unlucky last time. I'll try it next time again.
50012
Post by: Crimson
Pedroig wrote:On Knights, Battle Cannon is about 1.5 times better than Thermal Cannon at damage applied to the enemy from T4 to T8 regardless of saves, on average... And that's within 18", outside, it's not even close, over double...
Why is everyone giving their knights thermal then?
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Post by: Pedroig
Points? Pointwise they basically do the same amount per point, or really points per damage. Since the Battle Cannon is 50% more than the Thermal. However, it is only 30 odd point difference, can't make that much difference in 2000 points..
But Mathhammmer comes out to it is better overall. Way better versus T4, the only place they get close is T9 (which I'm not sure is even a thing, but did it for completeness sake), the difference in the AP is more than made up by the increased number of saves the unit will take.
But ultimately, my answer is I don't have the first clue... I'm an educated man, but I'm afraid I can't speak intelligently about the army building habits of fellow Dakka members. 
50012
Post by: Crimson
Pedroig wrote:Points? Pointwise they basically do the same amount per point, or really points per damage. Since the Battle Cannon is 50% more than the Thermal.
Yeah, but it is not like the knight itself is free...
Crusader is already insanely expensive, so I'd not try to save couple of points. Thermal might make more sense if paired with the (disappointingly ineffective) reaper sword.
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Post by: Pedroig
That's my thought as well on the Battle Cannon (I didn't count the macrostubber in). Now the Reaper Sword has a very specific place, that whole Str 16 is a 2+ to Wound against practically everything, so 2/3 of your attacks will hit, and 5/6 of your hits will wound.
50012
Post by: Crimson
Pedroig wrote:That's my thought as well on the Battle Cannon (I didn't count the macrostubber in). Now the Reaper Sword has a very specific place, that whole Str 16 is a 2+ to Wound against practically everything, so 2/3 of your attacks will hit, and 5/6 of your hits will wound.
It is the gauntlet which is S 16 (Sx2) the sword is just S 12 (S+4), but the gauntlet is -1 to hit.
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Post by: Iago40k
With 2k points battle cannon is the way to go but with 1850 its not possible. Just have a look at my list a couple of pages ago.
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Post by: Suzuteo
 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Doesn't stop overwatch. It's a fixed "hit on 6" thing that only gets altered by rules that have the word "OVERWATCH" in them. Confirmed by testers.
They are also slower in terms of running and charging too.
Like I said, the most annoying thing is that the weapon is really weird. It's good against mutli-wound invul saves and multi-wound no saves. Which are few and far in-between. And even if the opponent has some, he'll make it a PITA for your dragoons to actually charge them.
And I still use them. But I doubt they're "core". But time will tell...
Thermal and Rapidfire comparison
The fact that it has some positioning shananigans you can do where it hits harder in some situations (would you really fire that at IG troops?) makes Thermal better IMO. Obviously I'd take Rapid if it was the same price
Bummer on the Overwatch.
I don't follow. Dragoons always had 0 AP, and if anything, they have even more targets now than in 7th, given there are now Primaris Space Marines in addition to MC, light transports, MEQs, and walkers running around. After all, its damage comes from the sheer volume of high strength attacks. Really, what I am surprised by is how they gave us 2 damage attacks at all; they could have given us 1 damage attacks with the old cost (now 54 due to Taser Lances costing 9), which is much worse in the high-Wound environment we are in.
If your opponent is hiding their high-Wound units from your Dragoons, then they won't be in CC with your artillery, which will be pounding the tar out of everything else. Mission accomplished. 
Mm... looking at those results, I am going to have to echo the other comments. Given you are already spending 320 points on the body, you need to give it the tools necessary to succeed. Alternatively, you can build a Warden or Errant...
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Post by: Pedroig
Iago40k wrote:With 2k points battle cannon is the way to go but with 1850 its not possible. Just have a look at my list a couple of pages ago.
It is 24 point difference, not that hard to get it in...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:Pedroig wrote:That's my thought as well on the Battle Cannon (I didn't count the macrostubber in). Now the Reaper Sword has a very specific place, that whole Str 16 is a 2+ to Wound against practically everything, so 2/3 of your attacks will hit, and 5/6 of your hits will wound.
It is the gauntlet which is S 16 (Sx2) the sword is just S 12 (S+4), but the gauntlet is -1 to hit.
Correct sir, my bad. S+4 means 2+ on T6 or less, which is most SM vehicles, most transports. And -3 on AP is not bad... If you can mitigate the -1 on to hit, the gauntlet is quite a bit better. Feet are great against infantry, and meh versus vehicles and monsters...
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
I think list context might matter on the RFBC vs Thermal option. The Avenger already tosses a fair amount of shots against infantry and so do our Robots. Anti-tank in my list is limited to the Neutron, so having another reliable means of busting armor might be worth it (meta depending).
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Post by: Suzuteo
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:I think list context might matter on the RFBC vs Thermal option. The Avenger already tosses a fair amount of shots against infantry and so do our Robots. Anti-tank in my list is limited to the Neutron, so having another reliable means of busting armor might be worth it (meta depending).
This. Crusader might just be additional artillery ontop of our already excellent artillery. Indeed, we may well be stuck in old thinking. Crusader was king in WarCon lists because it benefited from Canticles and free upgrades. However, outside of WarCon, Errant was just as common due to the D on the chainsword.
Besides this, I wonder if we really need a Knight at all. Kastelans seem to outperform in the anti-horde role and Crawlers in the anti-tank role.
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Post by: Pedroig
em_en_oh_pee wrote:I think list context might matter on the RFBC vs Thermal option. The Avenger already tosses a fair amount of shots against infantry and so do our Robots. Anti-tank in my list is limited to the Neutron, so having another reliable means of busting armor might be worth it (meta depending).
But the RFBC is MORE RELIABLE at inflicting damage, even on armour.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Pedroig wrote: em_en_oh_pee wrote:I think list context might matter on the RFBC vs Thermal option. The Avenger already tosses a fair amount of shots against infantry and so do our Robots. Anti-tank in my list is limited to the Neutron, so having another reliable means of busting armor might be worth it (meta depending).
But the RFBC is MORE RELIABLE at inflicting damage, even on armour.
Does this factor in the 5+ squad perk? The pick-highest at half range? Or the fact it is d6 vs d3 damage?
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Post by: Pedroig
Yes it does...
Ok, was going over, double checking and realized left something, just a tad important out...
The chart gives Allocated Wounds that make it to the model, not Damage 
Short and sweet. Outside 18" TC will do 5.26 damage, inside 6.01 damage. The RFBC does 4.43. Invulns lower this to a worst case of TC 2.72 and 3.11, RFBC 2.59
Simple misclick combined with cut and paste of the formula looks like....
My apologies. TC is better Anti-Vehicle, RFBC will kill more 1 W models.
105165
Post by: rvd1ofakind
On topic of "do we need a knight". The problem is that we either go knight or:
run out of heavy support spaces
have to run kastelans in squads of6
have to lose CP in one way or the other
801
Post by: buddha
Gotta love the meta nature of two ad mech players arguing over data.
Hail the omnissiah.
105165
Post by: rvd1ofakind
Pedroig wrote:Yes it does...
Ok, was going over, double checking and realized left something, just a tad important out...
The chart gives Allocated Wounds that make it to the model, not Damage
Short and sweet. Outside 18" TC will do 5.26 damage, inside 6.01 damage. The RFBC does 4.43. Invulns lower this to a worst case of TC 2.72 and 3.11, RFBC 2.59
Simple misclick combined with cut and paste of the formula looks like....
My apologies. TC is better Anti-Vehicle, RFBC will kill more 1 W models.
Yeah and having to shoot a 100 pts weapon at 1W models makes me want to kill myself :p
also post the full thing
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Post by: tman3257
If we had another HQ choice that wasn't over 130 points I'd consider a second detachment over a Knight. Otherwise like it's been said, since Dunecrawlers cannot be run in squads anymore you run out of slots fast.
The alternative is to run the heavy slot detachment, but that sacrifices 2 CP.
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Post by: ross-128
One possibility would be to have one main detachment that is pure admech so it can use canticles, then a heavy-slot detachment in addition that is just "imperium" so it can be a single Astra Militarum Company Commander and a bunch of stompy robots. Basically, a 30-point tax to get a bunch of heavy support slots and a command point.
Because remember, those restrictions are always on a per-detachment basis.
The downsides of course are that the second detachment wouldn't be able to use canticles (but most of your army would be in the first detachment, which can), and a Company Commander running around leading a bunch of Kastellans/Dunecrawlers is kind of unfluffy. Though with some conversion work you could try to pass him off as the rare and elusive Skitarii Commander.
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Post by: str00dles1
Had a hand full of 2k games and even a 3k game this weekend.
My thoughts and comments from the games:
Vanguards are just better. No reason to use Rangers. I use them to bubble wrap the kastallens and give -1T for that needed melee if charged.
Priests, both types suck. They are cheap, but over all useless. they need to kill a unit first to be good, which they are usually killed first.
My second box of destoryers is never getting built, a waste of time painting the first box! Useless
Til a codex comes out, Cawl is a auto take
Fr 2k, min robots id run is 2 units of 2. they are quite overpowered. Easily see them getting more expensive in the coming times.
Laser Walkers and anti air walkers are also close to a auto include, both are amazing.
TPD is a requirement, whish I could take a cheaper HQ, but he baby sits the tanks.
Chickenwalkers are not bad, used twin las and did alright. Its cheap, but if it gets shot by anything big its doomed.
I use knight with gatling, stubbers and RFBC. RFBC is better all around, though expensive. If I know I'm playing someone who brings lots of vehicles ill switch it out but so far its a all star.
Overall, its fun to roll a bucket load of dice, but it gets pretty boring fast. Just not a lot of options right now so lists will pretty much be the same every time.
Also if you don't go first that can be really bad. You want lesser number of units. You got to bubble wrap the robots and tanks with a line of vanguard. Second they deep strike in and lock you up its game over.
Admech is pretty much a one robot-spam tick pony at the moment
also, cantilces how I read it is you get to pick, but never use again OR you roll for the whole game. One or the other. I don't play to cheese out bad GW wording or my opponent (the robots are bad enough) with TPD, this really isn't a issue unless you roll a 1 on the table, otherwise you can give yourself cover every turn.
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Post by: rvd1ofakind
But its at least a good one trick pony so that's cool.
Vanguard are probably just better once again but rangers are for standing on top of ruins near objectives. They serve a different role that nothing else in the army can effectively.. Also they can take sniper rifles, which I've seen both hated an praised
I keep seeing everyone saying priests die. Well bloody hide them better >.<
Also didn't mention infiltrators which are a MUST as a source of deep strike without allies.
Otherwise I agree with most points you made.
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Post by: Aaranis
Sadly there's now way for me to buy a 110€ single model, I'll have to pass on the Knights. I prefer to play an army more numerous anyway, always found it odd to have this big model on this tiny table.
As said before, running a Detachment that is pure AdMech and another from the Imperium to fill some holes in our army is not a bad idea, I thought about adding a Vanguard Detachment to include the Tempestus Start Collecting and my 2 units of 5 Sisters of Silence with Swords.
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Post by: Suzuteo
rvd1ofakind wrote:
On topic of "do we need a knight". The problem is that we either go knight or:
run out of heavy support spaces
have to run kastelans in squads of6
have to lose CP in one way or the other
Yeah, I am thinking the only reason why we would run a Knight is to avoid paying the Dominus tax to bring in an Outrider or Spearhead Detachment.
str00dles1 wrote:Had a hand full of 2k games and even a 3k game this weekend.
My thoughts and comments from the games:
Vanguards are just better. No reason to use Rangers. I use them to bubble wrap the kastallens and give -1T for that needed melee if charged.
Priests, both types suck. They are cheap, but over all useless. they need to kill a unit first to be good, which they are usually killed first.
My second box of destoryers is never getting built, a waste of time painting the first box! Useless
Til a codex comes out, Cawl is a auto take
Fr 2k, min robots id run is 2 units of 2. they are quite overpowered. Easily see them getting more expensive in the coming times.
Laser Walkers and anti air walkers are also close to a auto include, both are amazing.
TPD is a requirement, whish I could take a cheaper HQ, but he baby sits the tanks.
Chickenwalkers are not bad, used twin las and did alright. Its cheap, but if it gets shot by anything big its doomed.
I use knight with gatling, stubbers and RFBC. RFBC is better all around, though expensive. If I know I'm playing someone who brings lots of vehicles ill switch it out but so far its a all star.
Overall, its fun to roll a bucket load of dice, but it gets pretty boring fast. Just not a lot of options right now so lists will pretty much be the same every time.
Also if you don't go first that can be really bad. You want lesser number of units. You got to bubble wrap the robots and tanks with a line of vanguard. Second they deep strike in and lock you up its game over.
Admech is pretty much a one robot-spam tick pony at the moment
also, cantilces how I read it is you get to pick, but never use again OR you roll for the whole game. One or the other. I don't play to cheese out bad GW wording or my opponent (the robots are bad enough) with TPD, this really isn't a issue unless you roll a 1 on the table, otherwise you can give yourself cover every turn.
I aim for two layers of defense. The outer layer being Dragoons and the inner layer being bubble-wrap Vanguards.
Sad to hear that about the Destroyers.
If you recommend two units of 2x Kastelans, it means we only get one Crawler in a Battalion. So Icarus or Neutron? My plan so far is to run a Crusader in lieu of my second unit of Kastelans, and go with double Icarus or Icarus + Neutron. However, I might be overestimating the flyer threat and underestimating the tank threat.
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Post by: Aaranis
Why not just playing one big single Kastelan unit of 3-6 ? Sure you'll have less terrain covered but that frees up a slot for another Dunecrawler that will cover this terrain just as fast and without any movement penalties. I think the Robots should be set up on a central position with a bunch of your army around (like the TPD for rerolls), it's likely you'll face a better CC army in front of you and so you set up your defense point on the center and split-fire everything. Meanwhile you send your capturing units (like Infiltrators, Dragoons, Vanguards) to go well, capturing.
No one likes the Incendine Combustor ? Now that it's been buffed I really like it. 12" D6 hits, now at S5 AND -1 rend. Set them up in Protector protocol and no horde will survive entering your 24" bubble of prometheum and phosphor death.
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Post by: rvd1ofakind
 Aaranis wrote:Why not just playing one big single Kastelan unit of 3-6 ? Sure you'll have less terrain covered but that frees up a slot for another Dunecrawler that will cover this terrain just as fast and without any movement penalties. I think the Robots should be set up on a central position with a bunch of your army around (like the TPD for rerolls), it's likely you'll face a better CC army in front of you and so you set up your defense point on the center and split-fire everything. Meanwhile you send your capturing units (like Infiltrators, Dragoons, Vanguards) to go well, capturing.
No one likes the Incendine Combustor ? Now that it's been buffed I really like it. 12" D6 hits, now at S5 AND -1 rend. Set them up in Protector protocol and no horde will survive entering your 24" bubble of prometheum and phosphor death.
Yeah but most of them have a big tanky dude to absorb it. Doing big kastelan units is really risky. 1 mistake and you're f'd for tbh little reward
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Post by: Aaranis
rvd1ofakind wrote: Aaranis wrote:Why not just playing one big single Kastelan unit of 3-6 ? Sure you'll have less terrain covered but that frees up a slot for another Dunecrawler that will cover this terrain just as fast and without any movement penalties. I think the Robots should be set up on a central position with a bunch of your army around (like the TPD for rerolls), it's likely you'll face a better CC army in front of you and so you set up your defense point on the center and split-fire everything. Meanwhile you send your capturing units (like Infiltrators, Dragoons, Vanguards) to go well, capturing.
No one likes the Incendine Combustor ? Now that it's been buffed I really like it. 12" D6 hits, now at S5 AND -1 rend. Set them up in Protector protocol and no horde will survive entering your 24" bubble of prometheum and phosphor death.
Yeah but most of them have a big tanky dude to absorb it. Doing big kastelan units is really risky. 1 mistake and you're f'd for tbh little reward
I'm sorry, to absorb what, the Incendine Combustor ? Not sure if you're talking about this line. If you do, well...don't shoot the Combustor at the big tanky dude ? Even if hits the only target he can eat 4d6 S5 -1 hits + the Phosphor so that's that.
Sure you'd have to be more strategic in your placement and escort them, a few Lascannons can ruin their day. They'll ruin their day whether they are in one unit or two anyway isn't it ?
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Post by: rvd1ofakind
Aaranis wrote: rvd1ofakind wrote: Aaranis wrote:Why not just playing one big single Kastelan unit of 3-6 ? Sure you'll have less terrain covered but that frees up a slot for another Dunecrawler that will cover this terrain just as fast and without any movement penalties. I think the Robots should be set up on a central position with a bunch of your army around (like the TPD for rerolls), it's likely you'll face a better CC army in front of you and so you set up your defense point on the center and split-fire everything. Meanwhile you send your capturing units (like Infiltrators, Dragoons, Vanguards) to go well, capturing.
No one likes the Incendine Combustor ? Now that it's been buffed I really like it. 12" D6 hits, now at S5 AND -1 rend. Set them up in Protector protocol and no horde will survive entering your 24" bubble of prometheum and phosphor death.
Yeah but most of them have a big tanky dude to absorb it. Doing big kastelan units is really risky. 1 mistake and you're f'd for tbh little reward
I'm sorry, to absorb what, the Incendine Combustor ? Not sure if you're talking about this line. If you do, well...don't shoot the Combustor at the big tanky dude ? Even if hits the only target he can eat 4d6 S5 -1 hits + the Phosphor so that's that.
Sure you'd have to be more strategic in your placement and escort them, a few Lascannons can ruin their day. They'll ruin their day whether they are in one unit or two anyway isn't it ?
Absorb overwatch :x you can't target other units when overwatching
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Post by: Aaranis
Oooh okay now it's clear for me haha sorry about that. Sure you're right then 
109450
Post by: Iago40k
Pedroig wrote:
It is 24 point difference, not that hard to get it in...
Actually in this specific list yes it is. You have to take power swords and stubcarbines on the infiltrators in order to even get the knight with thermal into that list. Otherwise you have to kick out a unit. And there is basically no unit you want to leave at home.
88026
Post by: casvalremdeikun
So, for a unit of 5 with two Transuranic Arquebuses, Rangers or Vanguard? I know that the general thought is Vanguards, but Rangers have a bit more range (ha...) to them.
I am thinking(all 5 man) two units with 2x Arquebuses, one with 2x Plasma Caliver (definitely Vanguard here), and one with unknown. I am probably going to get two more Start Collectings, so two 10 man units to form a wall around my Onagers is also on the table.
106426
Post by: Aaranis
 casvalremdeikun wrote:So, for a unit of 5 with two Transuranic Arquebuses, Rangers or Vanguard? I know that the general thought is Vanguards, but Rangers have a bit more range (ha...) to them.
I am thinking(all 5 man) two units with 2x Arquebuses, one with 2x Plasma Caliver (definitely Vanguard here), and one with unknown. I am probably going to get two more Start Collectings, so two 10 man units to form a wall around my Onagers is also on the table.
Always go Rangers for your Arquebuses, Vanguards will just sit there and shoot at nobody. You may consider an Omnispex too if you want to run snipers. Vanguards all the way for the dirty jobs and the suicide missions. If you use Plasma, consider keeping your Techpriest Dominus close by to reroll the 1s to allow a safer Overcharge shot (for me Overcharge is all the point of Plasma this edition). Keeping them close to the Onagers is good if you equip the Onager with Broad-spectrum data tether, +1 Ld is nice to have and it's free (you won't get smoke launchers then).
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Post by: Qarp
Hi,
I have been wondering why all the focus of using only one detachment, and have the following questions:
1. Do command points from different or multiple detachments stack?
2. Adeptus Mechnicus "If you have a battle-forged army units only receive the bonus if every model in their detachment has this ability". What happens if you have two adeptus mechanicus detachments, where all models in the detachment have the canticle ability? Do you do canticle once pr detachment or once that applies to both? Also do canticles apply to the 2nd detachment?
105165
Post by: rvd1ofakind
1. Stack but inefficient
2. They just use them normaly
801
Post by: buddha
Anyone who plays ad mech 30k feel like we 8th makes us play like an ordo reductor list? Really, we are focused on our artillery and a spearhead detachment seems like the inevitable choice.
105165
Post by: rvd1ofakind
 buddha wrote:Anyone who plays ad mech 30k feel like we 8th makes us play like an ordo reductor list? Really, we are focused on our artillery and a spearhead detachment seems like the inevitable choice.
I disagree. We need troops bad to avoid turn 1 charges and cap objectives (which count per model). And 1 Dominus is good for what it does:
A) an aditional aura to go forwards while cawl stays in the back
B) Fixing 2 things instead of 1
C) getting +2 CP
Spearhead for me seems bad unless it's a bonus detachment, which at that point - just go +9cp tbh
You can't get away with that many heavy support. It's too greedy and you will get punished.
44304
Post by: str00dles1
Aaranis wrote:Why not just playing one big single Kastelan unit of 3-6 ? Sure you'll have less terrain covered but that frees up a slot for another Dunecrawler that will cover this terrain just as fast and without any movement penalties. I think the Robots should be set up on a central position with a bunch of your army around (like the TPD for rerolls), it's likely you'll face a better CC army in front of you and so you set up your defense point on the center and split-fire everything. Meanwhile you send your capturing units (like Infiltrators, Dragoons, Vanguards) to go well, capturing.
No one likes the Incendine Combustor ? Now that it's been buffed I really like it. 12" D6 hits, now at S5 AND -1 rend. Set them up in Protector protocol and no horde will survive entering your 24" bubble of prometheum and phosphor death.
A big unit is really bad. It gets locked in combat and your done. While if you have 2 units of 2 it makes your opponent need to try to lock up both.
also it doesent give you the flexablity of picking targets better. Remember you need to declare who is shooting who before rolling. If your one unit doesent kill something, you have the option of another taking it out or shooting something else.
Id never use the flamer, its trash. Guns are better for killing hordes. 18 Shots compared to d6....
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Post by: Aaranis
str00dles1 wrote: Aaranis wrote:Why not just playing one big single Kastelan unit of 3-6 ? Sure you'll have less terrain covered but that frees up a slot for another Dunecrawler that will cover this terrain just as fast and without any movement penalties. I think the Robots should be set up on a central position with a bunch of your army around (like the TPD for rerolls), it's likely you'll face a better CC army in front of you and so you set up your defense point on the center and split-fire everything. Meanwhile you send your capturing units (like Infiltrators, Dragoons, Vanguards) to go well, capturing.
No one likes the Incendine Combustor ? Now that it's been buffed I really like it. 12" D6 hits, now at S5 AND -1 rend. Set them up in Protector protocol and no horde will survive entering your 24" bubble of prometheum and phosphor death.
A big unit is really bad. It gets locked in combat and your done. While if you have 2 units of 2 it makes your opponent need to try to lock up both.
also it doesent give you the flexablity of picking targets better. Remember you need to declare who is shooting who before rolling. If your one unit doesent kill something, you have the option of another taking it out or shooting something else.
Id never use the flamer, its trash. Guns are better for killing hordes. 18 Shots compared to d6....
It's more of 12 shots + 2D6. It has different purposes I suppose. I get it why two units are better, you could use a Spearhead Detachment to stuff all your Support with a Dominus and keep the main Detachment for everything else + some extra Dunecrawlers.
I really feel either the Robots or the Heavy Phosphor Blasters are going to get a dramatic points increase, don't sacrifice all of your money to the meta god while the 8th Edition is not even out.
105165
Post by: rvd1ofakind
Aaranis wrote:str00dles1 wrote: Aaranis wrote:Why not just playing one big single Kastelan unit of 3-6 ? Sure you'll have less terrain covered but that frees up a slot for another Dunecrawler that will cover this terrain just as fast and without any movement penalties. I think the Robots should be set up on a central position with a bunch of your army around (like the TPD for rerolls), it's likely you'll face a better CC army in front of you and so you set up your defense point on the center and split-fire everything. Meanwhile you send your capturing units (like Infiltrators, Dragoons, Vanguards) to go well, capturing.
No one likes the Incendine Combustor ? Now that it's been buffed I really like it. 12" D6 hits, now at S5 AND -1 rend. Set them up in Protector protocol and no horde will survive entering your 24" bubble of prometheum and phosphor death.
A big unit is really bad. It gets locked in combat and your done. While if you have 2 units of 2 it makes your opponent need to try to lock up both.
also it doesent give you the flexablity of picking targets better. Remember you need to declare who is shooting who before rolling. If your one unit doesent kill something, you have the option of another taking it out or shooting something else.
Id never use the flamer, its trash. Guns are better for killing hordes. 18 Shots compared to d6....
It's more of 12 shots + 2D6. It has different purposes I suppose. I get it why two units are better, you could use a Spearhead Detachment to stuff all your Support with a Dominus and keep the main Detachment for everything else + some extra Dunecrawlers.
I really feel either the Robots or the Heavy Phosphor Blasters are going to get a dramatic points increase, don't sacrifice all of your money to the meta god while the 8th Edition is not even out.
I mean, my opponent just killed them turn one with smite and other mortal wounds.. so it's not that amazing that it'd get hotfixed IMO
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Post by: Aaranis
rvd1ofakind wrote:
I mean, my opponent just killed them turn one with smite and other mortal wounds.. so it's not that amazing that it'd get hotfixed IMO
True, even in the small points games I'm playing lately they can die rather quickly. At least that's wounds that go to them and not to my capturing troops, because let's face it, it's not Protector Robots that are going to go capture objectives.
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Post by: MIKEtheMERCILESS
I'm interested in the Corpuscarii Electro-Priests, I think the models look awesome, and it sounds like they can lay down some heavy anti horde pain!
As for the losers in this roundup, meh, by the sounds of it GW will be quick to make adjustments when the feedback and tournemnt data starts coming in.
I'm a bit out of the loop in regards to all the Adeptus Mechanicus FW models out there - am I right in thinking FW will be releasing their own index books?
Going by mere speculation - were there any gaps in our current AM armies that the FW models (in theory anyway) will be able to fill? I'm thinking cheap speed bumps to melee for one
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Post by: Crimson
 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
Going by mere speculation - were there any gaps in our current AM armies that the FW models (in theory anyway) will be able to fill?
I'm mainly looking forward to non-hideous looking robots.
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Post by: Suzuteo
Qarp wrote:Hi,
I have been wondering why all the focus of using only one detachment, and have the following questions:
1. Do command points from different or multiple detachments stack?
2. Adeptus Mechnicus "If you have a battle-forged army units only receive the bonus if every model in their detachment has this ability". What happens if you have two adeptus mechanicus detachments, where all models in the detachment have the canticle ability? Do you do canticle once pr detachment or once that applies to both? Also do canticles apply to the 2nd detachment?
I think it really needs to be reiterated that 8th edition is essentially penalizing a lot of armies for taking additional detachments by requiring you to pay an HQ tax. You also lose out on the bonus CP that you would get if you were to upgrade that Battalion into a Brigade like so:
Brigade Detachment
HQ - 620
1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Dominus - Volkite Blaster, Macrostubber
1x Tech-Priest Dominus - Volkite Blaster, Macrostubber
Troops - 300
5x Skitarii Vanguard
5x Skitarii Vanguard
5x Skitarii Vanguard
5x Skitarii Vanguard
5x Skitarii Vanguard
5x Skitarii Vanguard
Elites - 156
1x Cybernetica Datasmith - 1x Gamma Pistol, 1x Power Fist
1x Cybernetica Datasmith - 1x Gamma Pistol, 1x Power Fist
1x Cybernetica Datasmith - 1x Gamma Pistol, 1x Power Fist
Fast Attack - 204
1x Sydonian Dragoon - 1x Taser Lance
1x Sydonian Dragoon - 1x Taser Lance
1x Sydonian Dragoon - 1x Taser Lance
Heavy Support - 705
1x Onager Dunecrawler - 1x Icarus Array
1x Onager Dunecrawler - 1x Neutron Laser, 1x Cognis Heavy Stubber
2x Kastelan Robots - 2x Heavy Phosphor Blasters, 2x Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters
2x Kastelan Robots - 2x Heavy Phosphor Blasters, 2x Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters
1985 points
12 CP
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Yea, but that army isn't as efficient looking as other lists with less CP. I can't imagine CP is enough to warrant is taking lots of filler.
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Post by: rvd1ofakind
Might want at least 1 squad of rangers to camp on ruins?
Also 3 datasmiths D: They're so bad. 52pts unit that gets killed by 2 genestealers (20 pts)
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Post by: str00dles1
Suzuteo wrote:Qarp wrote:Hi,
I have been wondering why all the focus of using only one detachment, and have the following questions:
1. Do command points from different or multiple detachments stack?
2. Adeptus Mechnicus "If you have a battle-forged army units only receive the bonus if every model in their detachment has this ability". What happens if you have two adeptus mechanicus detachments, where all models in the detachment have the canticle ability? Do you do canticle once pr detachment or once that applies to both? Also do canticles apply to the 2nd detachment?
I think it really needs to be reiterated that 8th edition is essentially penalizing a lot of armies for taking additional detachments by requiring you to pay an HQ tax. You also lose out on the bonus CP that you would get if you were to upgrade that Battalion into a Brigade like so:
Brigade Detachment
HQ - 620
1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Dominus - Volkite Blaster, Macrostubber
1x Tech-Priest Dominus - Volkite Blaster, Macrostubber
Troops - 300
5x Skitarii Vanguard
5x Skitarii Vanguard
5x Skitarii Vanguard
5x Skitarii Vanguard
5x Skitarii Vanguard
5x Skitarii Vanguard
Elites - 156
1x Cybernetica Datasmith - 1x Gamma Pistol, 1x Power Fist
1x Cybernetica Datasmith - 1x Gamma Pistol, 1x Power Fist
1x Cybernetica Datasmith - 1x Gamma Pistol, 1x Power Fist
Fast Attack - 204
1x Sydonian Dragoon - 1x Taser Lance
1x Sydonian Dragoon - 1x Taser Lance
1x Sydonian Dragoon - 1x Taser Lance
Heavy Support - 705
1x Onager Dunecrawler - 1x Icarus Array
1x Onager Dunecrawler - 1x Neutron Laser, 1x Cognis Heavy Stubber
2x Kastelan Robots - 2x Heavy Phosphor Blasters, 2x Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters
2x Kastelan Robots - 2x Heavy Phosphor Blasters, 2x Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters
1985 points
12 CP
Really don't feel the dragoons are any good. Very meh.
I'm still in the Vanguard are better then Rangers. The guns are not to good, so I don't get why people want them to be objective campers. Rather use Vanguards every time.
More then 1 Datasmith is horrible. They are terrible and serve only to make the bots shooty.
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Post by: rvd1ofakind
Because they just stand on top of ruins and shoot all the time. And the best you can hope for with vanguard is overwatch since no one will get inside the 18'' without a plan to charge.
I really want to see more tests on the snipers BTW :>
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Post by: Aaranis
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:I'm interested in the Corpuscarii Electro-Priests, I think the models look awesome, and it sounds like they can lay down some heavy anti horde pain!
As for the losers in this roundup, meh, by the sounds of it GW will be quick to make adjustments when the feedback and tournemnt data starts coming in.
I'm a bit out of the loop in regards to all the Adeptus Mechanicus FW models out there - am I right in thinking FW will be releasing their own index books?
Going by mere speculation - were there any gaps in our current AM armies that the FW models (in theory anyway) will be able to fill? I'm thinking cheap speed bumps to melee for one
The Corpuscarii are really short-ranged, it needs a bit of planning at deployment , or to use them to flank by hiding behind terrain or something, they'll die like flies when looked upon by some shooting unit. Even lasguns are terrifying to them.
They should release a cheap HQ, the Secutarii Axiarch, which is a Skitarius character. I wonder how the Secutarii Hoplites and Peltasts will be too. If we could get the Triaros Armoured Conveyor as a transport I'd be so happy.
Even if it costs 92£ :(
As for the snipers I had one game where they did absolutely nothing and another where they put a Warlord to 1 Wound and severely damaged the other characters. So far, I'll keep try them in games. They might be really nice against the likes of Necrons and Astra Militarum, to snipe the weak characters that buffs the troops around.
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Post by: Iago40k
Got another testgame today against nids and 2 list concepts (no antibuild, looking for a viable tournament build for 1850). I really liked the Knight Crusader but thats sooo many points and I'd like to try out something else. Since we need something to scare off first turn charges in that first list Ive got a knight errant. Not too bad at shooting stuff with Thermal and pretty okay in melee (I could take the gauntlet but I want to try out the sword and of course points (yes, 5 points!)).
So this is list #1:
Cawl
TPD
3x5 Vanguard
1x5 Rangers with 2 Arquebusses (have to test them)
1x5 Infiltrators (Flachette/Taser)
3 Dakkastelans
Datasmith
Icarus Onager
Neutron Onager
Knight Errant
And list #2 without the Knight. I switched the knight for some countercharge potential that could do the same job, some more screening and potential first turn charges of my own with the Dragoons.
List #2:
Cawl
TPD
4x5 Vanguard
1x5 Ranger 2 Arquebusses
1x5 Infiltrators
1x5 Ruststalkers
3 Dakkastelans
Datasmith
Neutron Onager
Icarus Onager
2 Dragoons
2x5 Corpuscarii
Thoughts? Comments?
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Post by: Aaranis
Just want to say I love the word " Dakkastelan" and I'm going to use it whenever I can now haha 
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Aaranis wrote:Just want to say I love the word " Dakkastelan" and I'm going to use it whenever I can now haha
That and Neutronager.
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Post by: str00dles1
Iago40k wrote:Got another testgame today against nids and 2 list concepts (no antibuild, looking for a viable tournament build for 1850). I really liked the Knight Crusader but thats sooo many points and I'd like to try out something else. Since we need something to scare off first turn charges in that first list Ive got a knight errant. Not too bad at shooting stuff with Thermal and pretty okay in melee (I could take the gauntlet but I want to try out the sword and of course points (yes, 5 points!)).
So this is list #1:
Cawl
TPD
3x5 Vanguard
1x5 Rangers with 2 Arquebusses (have to test them)
1x5 Infiltrators (Flachette/Taser)
3 Dakkastelans
Datasmith
Icarus Onager
Neutron Onager
Knight Errant
And list #2 without the Knight. I switched the knight for some countercharge potential that could do the same job, some more screening and potential first turn charges of my own with the Dragoons.
List #2:
Cawl
TPD
4x5 Vanguard
1x5 Ranger 2 Arquebusses
1x5 Infiltrators
1x5 Ruststalkers
3 Dakkastelans
Datasmith
Neutron Onager
Icarus Onager
2 Dragoons
2x5 Corpuscarii
Thoughts? Comments?
Besides 1850 being weird, go list 1. Second list has lots of junk in it. Id never take rust stalkers. The priests are again, very bad.If you must use them, it atleast has to be a min of 10 guys or they will be dead before they do anything. Dragoons are very underwhelming.
I know there is a huge stigma with having no more then 5 guys per ranger/vanguard, but I disagree mission depending. You want to go first, every game so your dakkabots get double shots before the enemy is hopefully in your face. More units you deploy the higher change you are stuck trying to seize.
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Post by: Iago40k
str00dles1 wrote:
Besides 1850 being weird, go list 1. Second list has lots of junk in it. Id never take rust stalkers. The priests are again, very bad.If you must use them, it atleast has to be a min of 10 guys or they will be dead before they do anything. Dragoons are very underwhelming.
I know there is a huge stigma with having no more then 5 guys per ranger/vanguard, but I disagree mission depending. You want to go first, every game so your dakkabots get double shots before the enemy is hopefully in your face. More units you deploy the higher change you are stuck trying to seize.
Ruststalkers are great for harrassing and countercharging. Still don't know about the priests, haven't had a chance using them but on the paper you are right. They die to a stiff breeze. I like Dragoons as a second layer of bubble wrapping and used them a lot in 7th (played 6 of them) but up until now you are right, their performance wasn't that great.
With the "going" first you are right, we really want to go first. But in most matchups that will be a very close call with 12 units. So one has to think: is it better to try to get first turn for having lesser units or just accept the fact to have more think about always going second?
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Post by: str00dles1
Iago40k wrote:str00dles1 wrote:
Besides 1850 being weird, go list 1. Second list has lots of junk in it. Id never take rust stalkers. The priests are again, very bad.If you must use them, it atleast has to be a min of 10 guys or they will be dead before they do anything. Dragoons are very underwhelming.
I know there is a huge stigma with having no more then 5 guys per ranger/vanguard, but I disagree mission depending. You want to go first, every game so your dakkabots get double shots before the enemy is hopefully in your face. More units you deploy the higher change you are stuck trying to seize.
Ruststalkers are great for harrassing and countercharging. Still don't know about the priests, haven't had a chance using them but on the paper you are right. They die to a stiff breeze. I like Dragoons as a second layer of bubble wrapping and used them a lot in 7th (played 6 of them) but up until now you are right, their performance wasn't that great.
With the "going" first you are right, we really want to go first. But in most matchups that will be a very close call with 12 units. So one has to think: is it better to try to get first turn for having lesser units or just accept the fact to have more think about always going second?
Feel the bubblewrap/harassing is where the vanguard/ rangers come in. Give them a try, but another unit of infiltrators would be a better use if you want to harass. Also having two units to deep strike can off set the spamming of 5 man units and helps going first. Still my vote is for list 1.
To the OP of the reference section of page 1, I think its worth pointing out that it is unknown as of yet if you pick canticles all game or pick just rolling or mix. Should be stated as such, and not that it is how you play it, don't want to tell the new players this is how it is until we know.
It reads a lot like physic powers, where you can roll OR pick, not do a mix.
I strongly feel in my experience it is the same here. You do not get to pick then try to roll for it next turn. Again, there is only every a "bad" canticle roll if you roll a 1, then you cant get your shroudpsalm. any other roll lets you modify it by +2 or -2.
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Post by: Iago40k
str00dles1 wrote: Again, there is only every a "bad" canticle roll if you roll a 1, then you cant get your shroudpsalm. any other roll lets you modify it by +2 or -2.
Why/How +2 -2? There is Cawl for +1 -1 but 2?
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Post by: Pedroig
The difference is Psychic powers are assigned at the beginning of the game, and they do not change throughout the game. Canticles are picked at the beginning of each battle round. So the relevant text comes into play every time it comes up in the process. At the beginning of each battle round you may either pick a canticles, with not being able to pick any canticle that has been used earlier in the game OR you may roll.
+1/-1 from the roll, you can't take two Cawl's
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Post by: str00dles1
Iago40k wrote:str00dles1 wrote: Again, there is only every a "bad" canticle roll if you roll a 1, then you cant get your shroudpsalm. any other roll lets you modify it by +2 or -2.
Why/How +2 -2? There is Cawl for +1 -1 but 2?
From Tech Priest Dom, which you will always have 1 of these for now atleast. Archmagos – While Cawl is on the battlefield, you can +1 or -1 when rolling on the Canticles table.
Pedroig wrote:The difference is Psychic powers are assigned at the beginning of the game, and they do not change throughout the game. Canticles are picked at the beginning of each battle round. So the relevant text comes into play every time it comes up in the process. At the beginning of each battle round you may either pick a canticles, with not being able to pick any canticle that has been used earlier in the game OR you may roll.
+1/-1 from the roll, you can't take two Cawl's
Right, you pick or roll at start of game, but its pretty much the same. That was the intention I feel they were doing. I don't see the reason to cheese it because of bad wording.
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Post by: Iago40k
str00dles1 wrote:
From Tech Priest Dom, which you will always have 1 of these for now atleast. Archmagos – While Cawl is on the battlefield, you can +1 or -1 when rolling on the Canticles table.
I don't..what? Cawls got Archmagos for +1/-1 but TPD does not have such an ability.
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Post by: str00dles1
Iago40k wrote:str00dles1 wrote:
From Tech Priest Dom, which you will always have 1 of these for now atleast. Archmagos – While Cawl is on the battlefield, you can +1 or -1 when rolling on the Canticles table.
I don't..what? Cawls got Archmagos for +1/-1 but TPD does not have such an ability.
My Mistake. Ive bene using rvd1ofakind's points sheets, and under TPD it has Archmago ability also. Guess he copy/pasted and didn't take it out.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Had a practice game this weekend
Fulgurite electro priests do work as a counter assault unit, wipe out a unit and they just mob around the table with their 3++ and their 5+ FNP equivalent.
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Post by: SagesStone
Since cover is a +1 to save now, then what do people think about taking omnispex on their 5 man vanguard units? I think it would at least help out a bit, the data tether seems pretty crappy to begin with when you can just MSU them to avoid the same problem it tries to bandaid.
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Post by: Aaranis
 n0t_u wrote:Since cover is a +1 to save now, then what do people think about taking omnispex on their 5 man vanguard units? I think it would at least help out a bit, the data tether seems pretty crappy to begin with when you can just MSU them to avoid the same problem it tries to bandaid.
I think it's best invested either in 5-man squads with no special weapons or in full squads with special weapons. Because when you'll have some shots at your small squad, you'd have to chose between removing either your useful special weapons or your Omnispex guy really quickly (especially if the Alpha has a pistol/ CC), you would only have one or two cheap dudes to soak up the shot before removing more expensive guys. Whereas if you put an Omnispex in a max squad with some special weapons, you'll have the extra guys to soak up a bit of damage by the time your guys are in place to actually benefit from their weaponry, and thus the Omnispex.
I think it's good to have an Omnispex in a squad of Rangers with Arquebuses though, in case you're playing against someone who buffs his artillery with a character in a ruin or something. Thinking about it I don't know if we'll have to shoot at characters in cover as much as before.
On another topic, what are your opinions on Arc Rifles ? Want to build a min squad with two of them, + an Arc Pistol/Maul for the Alpha for the fluffy side of it. They've been nerfed but now they're only 4 points each, at 12" you can dish max 4d3 damage with rend to vehicles, for just 14 points/guy.
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Post by: str00dles1
Eh, they are cheap, but only being STR 6 means youll need 5s almost all the time
Only heavy weapon I see as worth it is to a 10 man ranger unit with 3 sniper and hopefully getting 2-3 turns of sniping before they are killed. (But then the unit becomes expensive and eats points away for better things...robots...orangers...knights...)
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Post by: Suzuteo
The new Arc Rifles are... accurately priced. They are marginally better than Rad Carbines from a points perspective; you get 6 inches of range and comparable performance against non-vehicles and higher range and points efficiency against vehicles. Would be better if they gave us 1 Mortal Wound or something. Overcharged Plasma looks great though.
Which reminds me. Is it really settled that Grav Destroyers are better than Plasma Destroyers? I feel like Overcharged Plasma is severely underrated in Mathhammer terms right now, especially since when evaluated in a vacuum.
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Post by: str00dles1
Destroyers are terrible so doesent matter what one is better at the moment. When they drop a good 100 points then I'll consider them.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Has anyone thought about fortifications yet?
Something like this?
Firestorm Redoubt
2x Punisher Gatling Cannons
[200]
40 shots that hit on a 5+ plus 10 models inside shooting.
Or a Void Shield Generator for a 4++ to everything completely within 12"?
Might not be useful, but I figured it merited bringing them up - we got to make sure we don't miss any options for the new edition.
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Post by: Wulfey
The problem with the void shield is that it doesn't help any admech units very much. Robots, TPD, Cawl, Onagers all have at least a 5++. And you can't keep rangers/vanguard back and expect them to get their points worth of shooting since their range isn't that great. VSG really helps things like shooting dreadnaughts that don't have an invul or predators.
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Post by: Suzuteo
str00dles1 wrote:Destroyers are terrible so doesent matter what one is better at the moment. When they drop a good 100 points then I'll consider them.
Really? We're at the beginning of a new edition. Let's not dismiss something as good or terrible out of hand and explore possible use cases. I mean, 100 points for a minimum unit of 3 would really put them over the top given what they currently can do.
Now, from what I gather, Destroyers have these standout characteristics:
1) Very fragile (210 points for 3x3 wounds at T5 and 4+/6++), poor 7" average mobility
2) Fills a troop slot, but carries artillery weapons (Heavy w/o penalty and 36" range)
3) OC Plasma is VERY good for heavier-than-middle targets. Destroyers are more point efficient than Crawlers and Kastellans against anything heavier than an MEQ and lighter than a Land Raider.
I mean, seriously guys, do the Mathhammer. OC Plasma is CRAZY with a reroll. Seems like Destroyers will compete with (or complement) OC Plasma Vanguard (which has half the range) as a glass cannon. I wonder if you could put it in a fortification or behind a screen of Kastelans. Thoughts?
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Post by: str00dles1
Suzuteo wrote:str00dles1 wrote:Destroyers are terrible so doesent matter what one is better at the moment. When they drop a good 100 points then I'll consider them.
Really? We're at the beginning of a new edition. Let's not dismiss something as good or terrible out of hand and explore possible use cases. I mean, 100 points for a minimum unit of 3 would really put them over the top given what they currently can do.
Now, from what I gather, Destroyers have these standout characteristics:
1) Very fragile (210 points for 3x3 wounds at T5 and 4+/6++), poor 7" average mobility
2) Fills a troop slot, but carries artillery weapons (Heavy w/o penalty and 36" range)
3) OC Plasma is VERY good for heavier-than-middle targets. Destroyers are more point efficient than Crawlers and Kastellans against anything heavier than an MEQ and lighter than a Land Raider.
I mean, seriously guys, do the Mathhammer. OC Plasma is CRAZY with a reroll. Seems like Destroyers will compete with (or complement) OC Plasma Vanguard (which has half the range) as a glass cannon. I wonder if you could put it in a fortification or behind a screen of Kastelans. Thoughts?
Ive played them in in 5 games, others have played them, the general thoughts are posted on the first page. They are terrible. Kastallens are just better. Mathhammers already been done. OC plasma is also bad like all plasma. Even with a reroll, all it takes is a 1 and its dead.
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Post by: Pedroig
Inquisitor Acolytes are 3 wound models for 8 points... Granted not HW, but they also get "Look Out Sir" for nearby Inquisitors, and they eat up an Elite slot... But still, Destroyers cost way too much for what they can do, Troops or not...
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Post by: rvd1ofakind
str00dles1 wrote:Iago40k wrote:str00dles1 wrote:
From Tech Priest Dom, which you will always have 1 of these for now atleast. Archmagos – While Cawl is on the battlefield, you can +1 or -1 when rolling on the Canticles table.
I don't..what? Cawls got Archmagos for +1/-1 but TPD does not have such an ability.
My Mistake. Ive bene using rvd1ofakind's points sheets, and under TPD it has Archmago ability also. Guess he copy/pasted and didn't take it out.
Fixed, tell me if you see more. It was a typo, I knew Dominus didn't have that ability.
And about the roll of pick canticles topic:
It's not cheese and we're not abusing it. You CAN pick or roll. The difference between psychic and that is that psychic is "do you want to play for fun? roll then" and canticles actually have a mechanic attached to them (cawl). Which is why you choose what you want to do: roll or pick, every turn.
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Post by: Suzuteo
str00dles1 wrote:Ive played them in in 5 games, others have played them, the general thoughts are posted on the first page. They are terrible. Kastallens are just better. Mathhammers already been done. OC plasma is also bad like all plasma. Even with a reroll, all it takes is a 1 and its dead.
Really? Early reports on the other forums say they're okay--though they are glassy. Everyone agrees the Kastelans and Crawlers are better, but Destroyers aren't competing with them. They are Troops.
Point-for-point, a Vanguard with an OC Plasma Caliver is currently most efficient model in AdMech. With a guaranteed re-roll from our HQ, there's only a tiny 2.78% chance that they will actually Gets Hot. We should not dismiss it out of hand.
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Post by: Aaranis
Suzuteo wrote:str00dles1 wrote:Ive played them in in 5 games, others have played them, the general thoughts are posted on the first page. They are terrible. Kastallens are just better. Mathhammers already been done. OC plasma is also bad like all plasma. Even with a reroll, all it takes is a 1 and its dead.
Really? Early reports on the other forums say they're okay--though they are glassy. Everyone agrees the Kastelans and Crawlers are better, but Destroyers aren't competing with them. They are Troops.
Point-for-point, a Vanguard with an OC Plasma Caliver is currently most efficient model in AdMech. With a guaranteed re-roll from our HQ, there's only a tiny 2.78% chance that they will actually Gets Hot. We should not dismiss it out of hand.
I'll be building a max squad with two Plasma Calivers to escort my Dominus. Having the ability to deal 2 Damage is huge now, especially since Vanguards can do that too. They're really good against Primaris Marines for that reason, and Plasma negates their save in the open.
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Post by: Iago40k
Played the nids yesterday with list #1, so Knight Errant. Won that game 14:6. Got first turn and deployed way back in my zone since he had a melee flyrant, swarmlord and 2 units of genestealers so i had to stay back and not get into first turn charge range of either one of the flying monstrosities. I moved the knight upfield but out of smite range. Damn that knight is so important. It is just such an incredible distraction to the opponent that he needs to put his fire (i.e. exocrenes) into the knight instead of the kastelans or crawler. 3 units of vanguard were just enough of a bubble wrap to hold up against the genestealer of which one unit did not manage to charge in.
I got to say, i spend 100 points for a ranger unit with 2 arqebusses and...dammit they delivered. Sat 5 rounds on an objective marker and managed to snipe 2 characters (Patriarch and Primus) as well as blocking pssobile deepstrikes into the backfield. Well done boys you are allowed in my list.
Kastelans did what they do, so did the onager. Had some bad roles here and there but so did my opponent. All in all it was a great game. Nids are just horrific opponents for AdMech esp for this kind of list where there are basically only 3 units that you want to use as screening units (well 4, counting the knight in). We got some problems getting our units upfield against nids since they put out so much melee pressure in the first 2 turns that we basically start moving in turn 3. Also I lost my Infiltrators a little bit to soon. I think I've been playing them too offensively. They need to survive at least 2 turns since they are the only unit in my list that has the means to spread out the opponents army and split his fire.
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Post by: rvd1ofakind
Suzuteo wrote:str00dles1 wrote:Ive played them in in 5 games, others have played them, the general thoughts are posted on the first page. They are terrible. Kastallens are just better. Mathhammers already been done. OC plasma is also bad like all plasma. Even with a reroll, all it takes is a 1 and its dead.
Really? Early reports on the other forums say they're okay--though they are glassy. Everyone agrees the Kastelans and Crawlers are better, but Destroyers aren't competing with them. They are Troops.
Point-for-point, a Vanguard with an OC Plasma Caliver is currently most efficient model in AdMech. With a guaranteed re-roll from our HQ, there's only a tiny 2.78% chance that they will actually Gets Hot. We should not dismiss it out of hand.
They aren't competing with them? Them being troops means nothing. They are in the same role as Kastelans, Onagers, Balistarii and Knight Crusaders - backfield artilery. And guess what - they are worse than all of them. So you spend all your points on the 4 I've mentioned, and you have like 800 pts left. Cawl, Dominus. 500 pts left. Are you seriously telling me you're going to spend MORE points on backfield artilery? No. You have to get troops that are actually good at protecting the back field or you will get charged turn 1/2 and lose.
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Post by: Suzuteo
Aaranis wrote:I'll be building a max squad with two Plasma Calivers to escort my Dominus. Having the ability to deal 2 Damage is huge now, especially since Vanguards can do that too. They're really good against Primaris Marines for that reason, and Plasma negates their save in the open.
Yes, and it's so damn consistent. With a reroll, OC Plasma Calivers deal 1.73 wounds per turn against MCs, Bikes, Dreadnoughts, and Terminators, and 2.16 against Primaris.
My only question is whether we want to run 2 in a minimum squad or do one each like in 7th edition non-WarCon.
rvd1ofakind wrote:They aren't competing with them? Them being troops means nothing. They are in the same role as Kastelans, Onagers, Balistarii and Knight Crusaders - backfield artilery. And guess what - they are worse than all of them. So you spend all your points on the 4 I've mentioned, and you have like 800 pts left. Cawl, Dominus. 500 pts left. Are you seriously telling me you're going to spend MORE points on backfield artilery? No. You have to get troops that are actually good at protecting the back field or you will get charged turn 1/2 and lose.
Friend, nothing you said is technically wrong, but I don't think your attitude is helpful. I'm not cheerleading Destroyers or making some binding pronouncement about them; I don't even own any--all of my models are currently Skitarii. But at this point, inquiry is important. It's way too premature from just a handful of games each to declare something settled and dismiss all possible use cases.
On to your points. Yes, I said that assuming Heavy Support slot scarcity. Yes, they do compete on points. But if you're going to make that argument, Ironstriders and Crusaders have no role in our armies either. Indeed, we ought to run nothing but Kastelans and Crawlers in a Brigade detachment for maximum CP and Heavy Slots, fulfilling reqs. with the cheapest possible units: Datasmith, Dragoons, and Vanguard. (And that may well be the competitive build.)
Now, in terms of wounds per point, OC Plasma Destroyers with rerolls are more point efficient than Neutron Crawlers and Phosphor Kastelans against midweight targets; much more so within 24". They can also benefit from cover and fortification normally reserved for Troops and shoot up to 3 targets. Can we discuss this constructively?
105165
Post by: rvd1ofakind
You can't compare things to OC plasma. Especially when they fire THAT many shots.
If you get a crap roll - you can easily re-roll into 1s. That happens quite often.
If you're trying to be careful - just re-roll 1s, you just won't do enough damage.
And Crusader plays a huge roll in the army. Have you tried him? He's insane. TOs are thinking about banning Knight armies, for example and speculators expect them to be the new Eldar of 8th but not as opressive. Also balistarii are devastating with lsacannons if they get a good shot off.
44304
Post by: str00dles1
Suzuteo wrote: Aaranis wrote:I'll be building a max squad with two Plasma Calivers to escort my Dominus. Having the ability to deal 2 Damage is huge now, especially since Vanguards can do that too. They're really good against Primaris Marines for that reason, and Plasma negates their save in the open.
Yes, and it's so damn consistent. With a reroll, OC Plasma Calivers deal 1.73 wounds per turn against MCs, Bikes, Dreadnoughts, and Terminators, and 2.16 against Primaris.
My only question is whether we want to run 2 in a minimum squad or do one each like in 7th edition non-WarCon.
rvd1ofakind wrote:They aren't competing with them? Them being troops means nothing. They are in the same role as Kastelans, Onagers, Balistarii and Knight Crusaders - backfield artilery. And guess what - they are worse than all of them. So you spend all your points on the 4 I've mentioned, and you have like 800 pts left. Cawl, Dominus. 500 pts left. Are you seriously telling me you're going to spend MORE points on backfield artilery? No. You have to get troops that are actually good at protecting the back field or you will get charged turn 1/2 and lose.
Friend, nothing you said is technically wrong, but I don't think your attitude is helpful. I'm not cheerleading Destroyers or making some binding pronouncement about them; I don't even own any--all of my models are currently Skitarii. But at this point, inquiry is important. It's way too premature from just a handful of games each to declare something settled and dismiss all possible use cases.
On to your points. Yes, I said that assuming Heavy Support slot scarcity. Yes, they do compete on points. But if you're going to make that argument, Ironstriders and Crusaders have no role in our armies either. Indeed, we ought to run nothing but Kastelans and Crawlers in a Brigade detachment for maximum CP and Heavy Slots, fulfilling reqs. with the cheapest possible units: Datasmith, Dragoons, and Vanguard. (And that may well be the competitive build.)
Now, in terms of wounds per point, OC Plasma Destroyers with rerolls are more point efficient than Neutron Crawlers and Phosphor Kastelans against midweight targets; much more so within 24". They can also benefit from cover and fortification normally reserved for Troops and shoot up to 3 targets. Can we discuss this constructively?
Its your money, so buy what models you want, but theory crafting with math is very different then seeing them disappoint you in person. You don't own the models, so go ahead and buy them. They are bad.There are tourneys already happening in the area in a week or two, and no admech player is brining Destroyers. OC plasma is not good. Roll to many shots and youll loose models. Don't roil enough and they don't do any damage.
Spending 220 points on a unit to maybe do well for a single turn, then die and become vastly more terrible is not worth it. We are telling you not to waste your time with them.
5810
Post by: MIKEtheMERCILESS
All this talk of knights.. what is the opinion of the Mechanicum Cerastus Knight-Atrapos? I know it's pure speculation at this point, but the model looks amazing - was it any good in 7th ed? Would it sit nicely in an Ad Mech army?
109450
Post by: Iago40k
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:All this talk of knights.. what is the opinion of the Mechanicum Cerastus Knight-Atrapos? I know it's pure speculation at this point, but the model looks amazing - was it any good in 7th ed? Would it sit nicely in an Ad Mech army?
no clue. Never cared about forgeworld. Plus this knight is 30k.
5810
Post by: MIKEtheMERCILESS
Iago40k wrote: MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:All this talk of knights.. what is the opinion of the Mechanicum Cerastus Knight-Atrapos? I know it's pure speculation at this point, but the model looks amazing - was it any good in 7th ed? Would it sit nicely in an Ad Mech army?
no clue. Never cared about forgeworld. Plus this knight is 30k.
The Cerastus Knight-Atrapos may be taken as part of a Questoris Knight Crusade army or as a Lords of War choice for a Mechanicum Taghmata army in Horus Heresy games. Alternatively, it may be taken in Codex: Imperial Knights armies or as a Lords of War choice in an army of any faction that is part of the Armies of the Imperium in standard games of Warhammer 40,000.
It's listed in 40k knights, so see no reason why it's any less of a valid choice than a standard GW knight...
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Post by: str00dles1
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:Iago40k wrote: MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:All this talk of knights.. what is the opinion of the Mechanicum Cerastus Knight-Atrapos? I know it's pure speculation at this point, but the model looks amazing - was it any good in 7th ed? Would it sit nicely in an Ad Mech army?
no clue. Never cared about forgeworld. Plus this knight is 30k.
The Cerastus Knight-Atrapos may be taken as part of a Questoris Knight Crusade army or as a Lords of War choice for a Mechanicum Taghmata army in Horus Heresy games. Alternatively, it may be taken in Codex: Imperial Knights armies or as a Lords of War choice in an army of any faction that is part of the Armies of the Imperium in standard games of Warhammer 40,000.
It's listed in 40k knights, so see no reason why it's any less of a valid choice than a standard GW knight...
Well we have to wait until the new index comes that brigs 30k admech to 40k. For how it looks, its not worth the price to me personally.
I run a Crusader I believe with a RFBC and Gatling. That is over 500 points right there. I would guess this guy might hit 600-650 with weapons. Little to much for the standard 2k game.
105165
Post by: rvd1ofakind
str00dles1 wrote: MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:Iago40k wrote: MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:All this talk of knights.. what is the opinion of the Mechanicum Cerastus Knight-Atrapos? I know it's pure speculation at this point, but the model looks amazing - was it any good in 7th ed? Would it sit nicely in an Ad Mech army?
no clue. Never cared about forgeworld. Plus this knight is 30k.
The Cerastus Knight-Atrapos may be taken as part of a Questoris Knight Crusade army or as a Lords of War choice for a Mechanicum Taghmata army in Horus Heresy games. Alternatively, it may be taken in Codex: Imperial Knights armies or as a Lords of War choice in an army of any faction that is part of the Armies of the Imperium in standard games of Warhammer 40,000.
It's listed in 40k knights, so see no reason why it's any less of a valid choice than a standard GW knight...
Well we have to wait until the new index comes that brigs 30k admech to 40k. For how it looks, its not worth the price to me personally.
I run a Crusader I believe with a RFBC and Gatling. That is over 500 points right there. I would guess this guy might hit 600-650 with weapons. Little to much for the standard 2k game.
*cough*900pts Stompa*cough*
7722
Post by: em_en_oh_pee
str00dles1 wrote: MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:Iago40k wrote: MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:All this talk of knights.. what is the opinion of the Mechanicum Cerastus Knight-Atrapos? I know it's pure speculation at this point, but the model looks amazing - was it any good in 7th ed? Would it sit nicely in an Ad Mech army?
no clue. Never cared about forgeworld. Plus this knight is 30k.
The Cerastus Knight-Atrapos may be taken as part of a Questoris Knight Crusade army or as a Lords of War choice for a Mechanicum Taghmata army in Horus Heresy games. Alternatively, it may be taken in Codex: Imperial Knights armies or as a Lords of War choice in an army of any faction that is part of the Armies of the Imperium in standard games of Warhammer 40,000.
It's listed in 40k knights, so see no reason why it's any less of a valid choice than a standard GW knight...
Well we have to wait until the new index comes that brigs 30k admech to 40k. For how it looks, its not worth the price to me personally.
I run a Crusader I believe with a RFBC and Gatling. That is over 500 points right there. I would guess this guy might hit 600-650 with weapons. Little to much for the standard 2k game.
Just wait until you see the Acastus price. I am betting that one will make all Knights look cheap!
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Post by: str00dles1
Also as a personal preference, I don't buy to big models for a game this size. The normal knights now are as big as id go. anything else is just silly on a 6x4. If I want bigger, I just play Epic40k and the scale works perfectly
7722
Post by: em_en_oh_pee
str00dles1 wrote:Also as a personal preference, I don't buy to big models for a game this size. The normal knights now are as big as id go. anything else is just silly on a 6x4. If I want bigger, I just play Epic40k and the scale works perfectly
So you wouldn't be a fan of my 30k Knight army with a Warhound, Acastus and four other Knights!
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Post by: Jackal444
em_en_oh_pee wrote:str00dles1 wrote: MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:Iago40k wrote: MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:All this talk of knights.. what is the opinion of the Mechanicum Cerastus Knight-Atrapos? I know it's pure speculation at this point, but the model looks amazing - was it any good in 7th ed? Would it sit nicely in an Ad Mech army?
no clue. Never cared about forgeworld. Plus this knight is 30k.
The Cerastus Knight-Atrapos may be taken as part of a Questoris Knight Crusade army or as a Lords of War choice for a Mechanicum Taghmata army in Horus Heresy games. Alternatively, it may be taken in Codex: Imperial Knights armies or as a Lords of War choice in an army of any faction that is part of the Armies of the Imperium in standard games of Warhammer 40,000.
It's listed in 40k knights, so see no reason why it's any less of a valid choice than a standard GW knight...
Well we have to wait until the new index comes that brigs 30k admech to 40k. For how it looks, its not worth the price to me personally.
I run a Crusader I believe with a RFBC and Gatling. That is over 500 points right there. I would guess this guy might hit 600-650 with weapons. Little to much for the standard 2k game.
Just wait until you see the Acastus price. I am betting that one will make all Knights look cheap!
I've used the Atrapos in 7th a few times and it's a good, but not amazing knight. Honestly I'd end up picking the crusader over it for lower point warcons, but when I did take the atrapos, it'd do work. With an 8" D gun and D melee weapon wrapped into one and a large template that can make a vortex, it was a solid knight. However, a Crusader will most like out-shoot it so the Atrapos was mostly for getting closer and killing things that needed the D, you just had to be wary of the I4. With that gone, the Atrapos could shine actually. (Also it was 430 points in 7th, so I'd expect it to be in the 550 range in 8th).
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Post by: Suzuteo
str00dles1 wrote:Its your money, so buy what models you want, but theory crafting with math is very different then seeing them disappoint you in person. You don't own the models, so go ahead and buy them. They are bad.There are tourneys already happening in the area in a week or two, and no admech player is brining Destroyers. OC plasma is not good. Roll to many shots and youll loose models. Don't roil enough and they don't do any damage.
Spending 220 points on a unit to maybe do well for a single turn, then die and become vastly more terrible is not worth it. We are telling you not to waste your time with them.
Wow. Seriously, what's with the attitude? You won't even entertain the idea of doubling or more the damage output of a unit in exchange for only a 1/36 chance to die? I don't see anyone talking like this at all in the Space Marines threads or at the FLGS.
rvd1ofakind wrote:You can't compare things to OC plasma. Especially when they fire THAT many shots.
If you get a crap roll - you can easily re-roll into 1s. That happens quite often.
If you're trying to be careful - just re-roll 1s, you just won't do enough damage.
And Crusader plays a huge roll in the army. Have you tried him? He's insane. TOs are thinking about banning Knight armies, for example and speculators expect them to be the new Eldar of 8th but not as opressive. Also balistarii are devastating with lsacannons if they get a good shot off.
I don't see why we can't compare things to OC Plasma. It's not as if we're the only ones with them.
Yes, I know. My point wouldn't make sense if Crusaders and Ballistarii weren't good, and if you saw my list a few pages back, it has a Crusader in it. This is because a Crusader clearly offers a distinct advantage over Kastelans and Crawlers in areas such as range, durability, and assault. But if everything is competing purely in one dimension and being compared in points, they would never make it into an army because we're too busy stuffing it to the gills with the most efficient long-range dakka that we have in the largest slot detachment we can find.
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Post by: bortass
Our faction focus went up today, a bit late and useless except for confirmation on one thing. An effect that triggers on a 6+ will trigger on a roll of 5 or 6, if there is a +1 modifier. It's in the section on electropriests of the article.
Now back to your regularly scheduled posts arguing about Destroyers and OC plasma, lol
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Post by: Gitsplitta
I need help guys, if you would. Been fiddling with the cool excel spreadsheet for army building and such and am having a hard time sorting something out...
What is the cost and configuration of the Knight Crusader?
Just give me a quick example including the two main guns that you think would be useful.
Thanks!
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Post by: Suzuteo
bortass wrote: Our faction focus went up today, a bit late and useless except for confirmation on one thing. An effect that triggers on a 6+ will trigger on a roll of 5 or 6, if there is a +1 modifier. It's in the section on electropriests of the article.
Now back to your regularly scheduled posts arguing about Destroyers and OC plasma, lol
Yeah... our Faction Focus feels really perfunctory. Good to know that bit though.
At this point, I am more interested in arguing about how rigid the thinking is in this thread. I have never spoken to any competitive player of anything that relies on conventional knowledge and what "everyone knows/says." One example I recall from last year was that people were dismissive of multiple Knights and any Knight that was not a Crusader in a WarCon list until some guy placed in LVO with one featuring two Wardens.
Anyhow, I'll stop talking about Destroyers, but I want to encourage people to keep a plastic mind, especially this early on.
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Post by: Gitsplitta
Exalted. As a group we need one heck of a lot more games under our collective belts before we really understand how our faction is going to work under this new gaming paradigm.
7722
Post by: em_en_oh_pee
 Gitsplitta wrote:I need help guys, if you would. Been fiddling with the cool excel spreadsheet for army building and such and am having a hard time sorting something out...
What is the cost and configuration of the Knight Crusader?
Just give me a quick example including the two main guns that you think would be useful.
Thanks!
I am going for Avenger w/ HF, Thermal, Heavy Stubber and that is it. In the context of my list the Thermal is ideal because I need more dedicated anti-tank. It is much cheaper than a RFBC too. No sense in bringing the Meltagun over the Stubber, either. Waste of points.
If I go for a Carapace, I am leaning towards the Ironstorm more and more. It is so cheap! Main drawback is random shots, but S5 AP -1 and 2 Damage is decent. And we can toss that out at 72" to targets we don't need to see. That sounds good for nailing weak camper units.
So this:
Knight Crusader
Avenger w/ HF, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Ironstorm Missile Pod
[528]
Hopefully, that will be killy enough to justify that price tag.
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Post by: Azegoroth
Suzuteo wrote:bortass wrote: Our faction focus went up today, a bit late and useless except for confirmation on one thing. An effect that triggers on a 6+ will trigger on a roll of 5 or 6, if there is a +1 modifier. It's in the section on electropriests of the article.
Now back to your regularly scheduled posts arguing about Destroyers and OC plasma, lol
Anyhow, I'll stop talking about Destroyers, but I want to encourage people to keep a plastic mind, especially this early on.
Well, I bought most of my mechanicus minis a while back, and I started out just getting Cult Mechancus models.
So I currently have:
12 kataphrons(3 plasma/
Phosphor, 3 grav/flamer, 3 Arc rifle/arc claw, and 3 torsion cannon/Hydraulic claw.), 4 Kastelans(2 ranged, 2 melee). 5 Fulgurites. And a tech-priest.
Once 8e confirmed they added skitarii to the same army, I picked up a skitarii start collecting box. But still most of my troops in bigger battles than 1k points will have to be kataphrons of some sort until I pick up more models. I've got my first game of 8e scheduled for the end of the month, so I'll tell you how it goes with the Destroyers/Breachers.
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Post by: Suzuteo
Gitsplitta wrote:I need help guys, if you would. Been fiddling with the cool excel spreadsheet for army building and such and am having a hard time sorting something out...
What is the cost and configuration of the Knight Crusader?
Just give me a quick example including the two main guns that you think would be useful.
Thanks!
Basically, you have the base model and its weapons. Note that many of the weapons come with other weapons attached, so to speak.
Crusader = 320
Titanic Feet = 0
Heavy Stubber = 4
Avenger Gatling Cannon = 95
Heavy Flamer = 17
Rapid-fire Battle Cannon = 100
Heavy Stubber = 4
= 540
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Post by: Gitsplitta
Ahhhh... thanks guys, you're both brilliant! Thank you!
44304
Post by: str00dles1
Suzuteo wrote:str00dles1 wrote:Its your money, so buy what models you want, but theory crafting with math is very different then seeing them disappoint you in person. You don't own the models, so go ahead and buy them. They are bad.There are tourneys already happening in the area in a week or two, and no admech player is brining Destroyers. OC plasma is not good. Roll to many shots and youll loose models. Don't roil enough and they don't do any damage.
Spending 220 points on a unit to maybe do well for a single turn, then die and become vastly more terrible is not worth it. We are telling you not to waste your time with them.
Wow. Seriously, what's with the attitude? You won't even entertain the idea of doubling or more the damage output of a unit in exchange for only a 1/36 chance to die? I don't see anyone talking like this at all in the Space Marines threads or at the FLGS.
rvd1ofakind wrote:You can't compare things to OC plasma. Especially when they fire THAT many shots.
If you get a crap roll - you can easily re-roll into 1s. That happens quite often.
If you're trying to be careful - just re-roll 1s, you just won't do enough damage.
And Crusader plays a huge roll in the army. Have you tried him? He's insane. TOs are thinking about banning Knight armies, for example and speculators expect them to be the new Eldar of 8th but not as opressive. Also balistarii are devastating with lsacannons if they get a good shot off.
I don't see why we can't compare things to OC Plasma. It's not as if we're the only ones with them.
Yes, I know. My point wouldn't make sense if Crusaders and Ballistarii weren't good, and if you saw my list a few pages back, it has a Crusader in it. This is because a Crusader clearly offers a distinct advantage over Kastelans and Crawlers in areas such as range, durability, and assault. But if everything is competing purely in one dimension and being compared in points, they would never make it into an army because we're too busy stuffing it to the gills with the most efficient long-range dakka that we have in the largest slot detachment we can find.
Huh? As I said, your money, your models. No one is stopping you from buying them. You are wrong though as its not a 1/36 chance for them to roll a 1 again and die. Far higher dependent on what you roll, and that's the point. Its only good if you overcharge it, and only good if you roll high, but then you loose the models because of how likely the chance is you roll a 1. On your average of 10 shots for the squad of 3, you will loose 1 guy. If they took a mortal would, id be taking them myself, but it isn't worth taking a unit that kills itself. Robots just put out more damage because of the volume of shots they get. Its not worth the points, especially when you can take 5 vanguard for 50 points to bubblewrap your robots and tanks cheaply or rangers to snipe.
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Post by: Kandela
I have a quick question - I skimmed through the thread and found no answer:
Is there anything that stops me from getting 3 units of Kastelans, 2 Dominus and 2 gigantic blobs of Electro-Priests as a Spearhed Detachment?
The point is - Kastelans could rain death in relative safety of being behind a blob of Priests (who would serve as a buffer for anything wanting to get close) with Dominus as additional fire support and repair shenanigans.
How big of a dick I would be for running that kind of list?
111162
Post by: Suzuteo
 Kandela wrote:I have a quick question - I skimmed through the thread and found no answer:
Is there anything that stops me from getting 3 units of Kastelans, 2 Dominus and 2 gigantic blobs of Electro-Priests as a Spearhed Detachment?
The point is - Kastelans could rain death in relative safety of being behind a blob of Priests (who would serve as a buffer for anything wanting to get close) with Dominus as additional fire support and repair shenanigans.
How big of a dick I would be for running that kind of list?
No, but I am not sure if that is as invincible a combo as you'd think. Electro-Priests would be able to stop your Kataphrons from being Assaulted, but this won't stop the other big threat of mobile shooting units, other artillery, or the general problem of not having enough mobility to control the objectives that your artillery is in range of but not physically present at. This is why Vanguard, Dragoons, and Icarus Crawlers still compete for points.
Also, you're out of luck if they have heavy units or equivalent artillery with longer range. Kataphrons kill an amazing range of enemies by sheer volume of shots, but there are still some things that a Neutron Crawler is better suited for.
7722
Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Kandela wrote:I have a quick question - I skimmed through the thread and found no answer:
Is there anything that stops me from getting 3 units of Kastelans, 2 Dominus and 2 gigantic blobs of Electro-Priests as a Spearhed Detachment?
The point is - Kastelans could rain death in relative safety of being behind a blob of Priests (who would serve as a buffer for anything wanting to get close) with Dominus as additional fire support and repair shenanigans.
How big of a dick I would be for running that kind of list?
Not a dick at all. Kastelans are not invincible and will die, especially when you go into Protector mode. The Fulgurites are T3 1W and even with their equivalent FNP, massed fire will drop them quick. They are a solid counter-assault unit though, but not a great buffer (Vanguard do it better).
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Post by: Gitsplitta
I've been thinking... it seems from what I've read here that the AdMech want, maybe even need to go first. That means running out of units to deploy first. Yet having multiple, small troop units to act as screens for the big stuff also seems to be a priority. These two needs seem to be at odds with one-another.
I'm curious about everyone's thoughts on this dichotomy of priorities and how we should manage it while list building.
108562
Post by: Wulfey
Gitsplitta wrote:I've been thinking... it seems from what I've read here that the AdMech want, maybe even need to go first. That means running out of units to deploy first. Yet having multiple, small troop units to act as screens for the big stuff also seems to be a priority. These two needs seem to be at odds with one-another.
I'm curious about everyone's thoughts on this dichotomy of priorities and how we should manage it while list building.
This is exactly the problem with admech. Vanguards are only run well at 5 man because of morale (if you run 8 and lose 5, then you auto lose the next 3 most of the time). But Vanguard can easily die to high volume of fire weapons and even bolters. Especially biker armies which can put out all kinds of str 4 volume. So you end up in a situation where you need to keep your unit counts down but can't because the troops just don't work in groups of 10. Even if you only take the good units you rapidly end up with more drops than your opponent because you have no way to compress your drops through transports.
I think the good admech lists that actually work will be mostly Onager+PhosphorBots+Cawl as an artillery platform with two crusader knights on the side. You might be able to keep this to 8 drops.
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Post by: Pedroig
For Crusader, it is about 495 on the low end, and about 595 on the high end.
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Post by: PyrhusOfEpirus
Suzuteo wrote:str00dles1 wrote:Its your money, so buy what models you want, but theory crafting with math is very different then seeing them disappoint you in person. You don't own the models, so go ahead and buy them. They are bad.There are tourneys already happening in the area in a week or two, and no admech player is brining Destroyers. OC plasma is not good. Roll to many shots and youll loose models. Don't roil enough and they don't do any damage.
Spending 220 points on a unit to maybe do well for a single turn, then die and become vastly more terrible is not worth it. We are telling you not to waste your time with them.
Wow. Seriously, what's with the attitude? You won't even entertain the idea of doubling or more the damage output of a unit in exchange for only a 1/36 chance to die? I don't see anyone talking like this at all in the Space Marines threads or at the FLGS.
rvd1ofakind wrote:You can't compare things to OC plasma. Especially when they fire THAT many shots.
If you get a crap roll - you can easily re-roll into 1s. That happens quite often.
If you're trying to be careful - just re-roll 1s, you just won't do enough damage.
And Crusader plays a huge roll in the army. Have you tried him? He's insane. TOs are thinking about banning Knight armies, for example and speculators expect them to be the new Eldar of 8th but not as opressive. Also balistarii are devastating with lsacannons if they get a good shot off.
I don't see why we can't compare things to OC Plasma. It's not as if we're the only ones with them.
Yes, I know. My point wouldn't make sense if Crusaders and Ballistarii weren't good, and if you saw my list a few pages back, it has a Crusader in it. This is because a Crusader clearly offers a distinct advantage over Kastelans and Crawlers in areas such as range, durability, and assault. But if everything is competing purely in one dimension and being compared in points, they would never make it into an army because we're too busy stuffing it to the gills with the most efficient long-range dakka that we have in the largest slot detachment we can find.
You need thicker skin or dont post here. I thought nothing you quoted either time you called this guy out for his attitude was out of line
44304
Post by: str00dles1
Gitsplitta wrote:I've been thinking... it seems from what I've read here that the AdMech want, maybe even need to go first. That means running out of units to deploy first. Yet having multiple, small troop units to act as screens for the big stuff also seems to be a priority. These two needs seem to be at odds with one-another.
I'm curious about everyone's thoughts on this dichotomy of priorities and how we should manage it while list building.
Yea, Admech really needs to go first.You need to have your robots soften them up first turn, along with tanks and get the bots into dakka mode shooting first on the second turn.
This is where infiltrators are great. Not only can they possibly get a ton of hits, but they are fairly cheap and sit off the board until end of movement turn 1. So you never have to deploy, making your units less for INT.
112618
Post by: Arachnofiend
str00dles1 wrote: Gitsplitta wrote:I've been thinking... it seems from what I've read here that the AdMech want, maybe even need to go first. That means running out of units to deploy first. Yet having multiple, small troop units to act as screens for the big stuff also seems to be a priority. These two needs seem to be at odds with one-another.
I'm curious about everyone's thoughts on this dichotomy of priorities and how we should manage it while list building.
Yea, Admech really needs to go first.You need to have your robots soften them up first turn, along with tanks and get the bots into dakka mode shooting first on the second turn.
This is where infiltrators are great. Not only can they possibly get a ton of hits, but they are fairly cheap and sit off the board until end of movement turn 1. So you never have to deploy, making your units less for INT.
Declaring a unit is in reserves takes a deployment turn, so your infiltrators aren't making you any more likely to shoot first.
Still a good unit for other reasons, of course.
112586
Post by: gally912
Well, as a side note in this Destroyer discussion, I used them today against orks!
I needed them to pull vehicle duty, because he was barreling down with Battlewagons, meganobz, and stormboys.
Of the three I brought, 2 of them died to overheating, on different turns.
However! They put about 12 wounds on a Battlewagon to bring it down, followed by another ~9 on the MANz squad the following turn.
As the codex originally said, I had no problem spending the lives of these servitors. To shut down one of his assaulting unit's threat range transport, and then gutting a second assaulting unit the next turn? They more than made their points worth.
This game, anyways.
44304
Post by: str00dles1
Arachnofiend wrote:str00dles1 wrote: Gitsplitta wrote:I've been thinking... it seems from what I've read here that the AdMech want, maybe even need to go first. That means running out of units to deploy first. Yet having multiple, small troop units to act as screens for the big stuff also seems to be a priority. These two needs seem to be at odds with one-another.
I'm curious about everyone's thoughts on this dichotomy of priorities and how we should manage it while list building.
Yea, Admech really needs to go first.You need to have your robots soften them up first turn, along with tanks and get the bots into dakka mode shooting first on the second turn.
This is where infiltrators are great. Not only can they possibly get a ton of hits, but they are fairly cheap and sit off the board until end of movement turn 1. So you never have to deploy, making your units less for INT.
Declaring a unit is in reserves takes a deployment turn, so your infiltrators aren't making you any more likely to shoot first.
Still a good unit for other reasons, of course.
Not doubting your right, but where does it say that in the book. Having trouble finding it
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Post by: Pedroig
It is on the unit data sheet. or special rules:
Teleport Strike: during deployment you may choose to set up this unit in a teleport chamber instead of on the board...
Inflitrate: during deployment you may choose to set up this unit in hiding instead of on the board...
Jump Pack Assault: during deployment you may choose to set up this unit high in the skies instead of on the board...
Those are quick finds in Imperium 1, the only way to "get ahead" is to deploy a transport which can carry two or more units and declare they are in the transport. Placing in reserve is something that counts as a deployment of an unit.
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Post by: rvd1ofakind
The problem with admech is that as long as you play by RAW, we will only go first on a 6 vs any army with transports.
2 mandatory HQs? Ok. We deploy 1 hq, he deploys a transport, 2 HQs and a unit of troops inside, we deploy the second HQ...
Aaaaaand we already go 2nd.
However, the most widely accepted house (tournament) rule is the first to deploy just gets a +1 on the dice roll-off to see who goes first.
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Post by: Suzuteo
PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:You need thicker skin or dont post here. I thought nothing you quoted either time you called this guy out for his attitude was out of line
First, I was not personally offended. I just thought it was a very non-productive attitude to just definitively say "this is bad" or "this is a waste of money," especially when other groups are taking a totally different tack.
Second, this is exactly the sort of post nobody needs to see on a forum. It doesn't help anyone; it just makes people feel less welcome or free to speak.
 gally912 wrote:Well, as a side note in this Destroyer discussion, I used them today against orks!
I needed them to pull vehicle duty, because he was barreling down with Battlewagons, meganobz, and stormboys.
Of the three I brought, 2 of them died to overheating, on different turns.
However! They put about 12 wounds on a Battlewagon to bring it down, followed by another ~9 on the MANz squad the following turn.
As the codex originally said, I had no problem spending the lives of these servitors. To shut down one of his assaulting unit's threat range transport, and then gutting a second assaulting unit the next turn? They more than made their points worth.
This game, anyways.
I think you're using them as intended. I honestly don't think Gets Hot is a dealbreaker. I mean, it wasn't in 7th, and we have lower point costs and more rerolls today. The way I see it, you're risking a worst case scenario 15.55% chance of death (assuming you're rerolling 1s) to deal 2-3 turns worth of damage in one turn. Setting aside the huge dividends paid when you prematurely remove a unit from the board, how many units survive 3 turns of combat and how often do you wish a unit just had another turn or two to deal damage?
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Post by: Tsol
Going first is always helpful, unless you got a board you can manipulate but lets not forget we can declare canticles at the beginning of the game now, not on the start of our turn! This is a huge boon as we can give the cover bonus to all our models or some of the other ones.
And to just beat those skeptics or detractors, canticles are declared at the start of each battleround: a battleround is the start- end of both players turns. (corerulebook: battlerounds.)
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Post by: gally912
I think they may find a way into some lists. 3d6 Plasma shots is nothing to sneeze at, and it doesnt compare unfavorably with other sources of plasma.
A barebones longfang squad with 5PC, is something like ~200 pts. It puts out 10 Plas shots on average, with a range between 5-15. Re-rolls 1's if shooting at same unit. 6, T4 W1 Sv3+ bodies
Destroyers with PC and PB is 210. Puts out 10.5 shots, range between 3-18. No inherent reroll, but can shoot other, rapid fire gun that deals damage and makes Plas ignore cover. Can move and shoot with no penalty. 3, T5 W3 Sv4+ bodies
If one is within 6" of Cawl, who you are always taking, the accuracy becomes a wash. If both squads have to move, the Destroyers are actually better. Also, you can take more destroyers without eating into another FOC.
I'm not saying they are the best ever, but I dont think they are the worst thing either. It depends how much you like plasma. If you remove a crucial piece of your opponents army, then losing a servitor or two afterwards is inconsequential. The difference between a baneblade getting another shooting phase, or that demon prince a chance to charge, is worth its weight in servitors on turn 1 or 2, rather than extra shots later.
2c.
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Post by: rvd1ofakind
Suzuteo wrote:
First, I was not personally offended. I just thought it was a very non-productive attitude to just definitively say "this is bad" or "this is a waste of money," especially when other groups are taking a totally different tack.
Second, this is exactly the sort of post nobody needs to see on a forum. It doesn't help anyone; it just makes people feel less welcome or free to speak.
Maybe you should read my post again.
I'll re-explain it here:
If you get a 8/10 from an exam. Hey, that's not too bad. But then you see that everyone else got 9s or 10s and that means you are the worst.
Same thing goes for Kataphrons. They are solid. But the units that fill the same roles are just plain better: Kastelans, Onagers, Knights and Las Cannon Balistarii.
This is what I said in the post. This is not "THEY BAD".
Again: if they work for you or you manage to find a way to get a +1 to hit so they never overheat - sure, tell us.
Until then, I won't use them since I'm a tryhard and it's all just my opinion.
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Post by: Suzuteo
rvd1ofakind wrote:Maybe you should read my post again.
I'll re-explain it here:
If you get a 8/10 from an exam. Hey, that's not too bad. But then you see that everyone else got 9s or 10s and that means you are the worst.
Same thing goes for Kataphrons. They are solid. But the units that fill the same roles are just plain better: Kastelans, Onagers, Knights and Las Cannon Balistarii.
This is what I said in the post. This is not "THEY BAD".
Again: if they work for you or you manage to find a way to get a +1 to hit so they never overheat - sure, tell us.
Until then, I won't use them since I'm a tryhard and it's all just my opinion.
I think you also missed my point. Destroyers (both Grav and OC Plasma) are different than the other artillery. Like Crusaders and Ballistarii, they have advantages over Kastelans and Crawlers in certain circumstances. All I wanted to do was to explore those circumstances because I did not understand them very well, since I do not own any.
I'm not saying that they are strictly better, nor am I saying that I plan on using them or recommending that anyone use them.
Is this really that hard to understand?
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Post by: rvd1ofakind
Did some mathammering. Notes:
Protector Kastelans are stupid powerful
Icarus Onager vs flyers is as powerful (if you even have a small hunch that there might be a unit with "fly" - TAKE ICARUS. It's almost twice as good as neutron(that shoots ground) when it shoots <FLY>. )
Neutron+stubber is just a little better than Icarus vs grounded targets pure "best target damage" wise. But it's still our best way to deal with Vehicles.
Normal plasma+phosphor destroyers are just pure garbage.
OC plasma + phophor destroyers are a smidge better than balistarii and if I did some complicated "how many points were lost on both sides after the attack on average" balistarii would be waaaay in front since it doesn't kill itself. Not to mention Protector Kastelans and Icarus Onagers.
Trying to build a 1k list atm. It's so hard :x
Cawl
2 Dakkastelans
Datasmith
5 Infiltrators, power sword for MEQs
8 vanguard, alpha with power sword (left over)
Neutron Onager
Icarus Onager
Opponents - who knows who
edit: lul list:
cawl
5 dakkastelans
smith
neutron
D:
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
gally912 wrote:
Destroyers with PC and PB is 210. Puts out 10.5 shots, range between 3-18. No inherent reroll, but can shoot other, rapid fire gun that deals damage and makes Plas ignore cover. Can move and shoot with no penalty. 3, T5 W3 Sv4+ bodies
"Units attacked by this weapon do not gain any bonus to their savings throws for being in cover"
If I am reading this, I don't see it applying to the Plas. Just the Phosphor.
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Post by: str00dles1
gally912 wrote:I think they may find a way into some lists. 3d6 Plasma shots is nothing to sneeze at, and it doesnt compare unfavorably with other sources of plasma.
A barebones longfang squad with 5PC, is something like ~200 pts. It puts out 10 Plas shots on average, with a range between 5-15. Re-rolls 1's if shooting at same unit. 6, T4 W1 Sv3+ bodies
Destroyers with PC and PB is 210. Puts out 10.5 shots, range between 3-18. No inherent reroll, but can shoot other, rapid fire gun that deals damage and makes Plas ignore cover. Can move and shoot with no penalty. 3, T5 W3 Sv4+ bodies
If one is within 6" of Cawl, who you are always taking, the accuracy becomes a wash. If both squads have to move, the Destroyers are actually better. Also, you can take more destroyers without eating into another FOC.
I'm not saying they are the best ever, but I dont think they are the worst thing either. It depends how much you like plasma. If you remove a crucial piece of your opponents army, then losing a servitor or two afterwards is inconsequential. The difference between a baneblade getting another shooting phase, or that demon prince a chance to charge, is worth its weight in servitors on turn 1 or 2, rather than extra shots later.
2c.
Average is 10.5 shots. Then the amount of times you hit with that average is an average of 7.5 (10/2 hitting on 4s then reroll misses) Dakkabots are 36 shots, average of 27 hits (18+9 cause reroll) . Also ignores cover. Destroyers Blaster ignores cover, but it does NOT carry over to their plasma shots.. Nearly hitting 3 times more.
They are vastly over priced, that's why they are terrible. I don't know a good point cost to make them playable, maybe 120-140 or around there. FOC is not an issue because you can pick whatever you want to focus on.
rvd1ofakind had the best analogy. They are 8/10 but if everything (or almost everything, terrible servitors) are a 9/10 or 10/10 then they are the worst.
Its good you are trying them. I urge others to also, but the results will be the same. For casual games, go for it. But you wont see them in any winning tourney list.
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Post by: bortass
Well I'm hoping there's some truth to a rumor I saw in general discussion about a day 1 FAQ that mentioned Dartmouth and engineers are being move to the HQ slot. I think that will really help us get the larger formations, especially those of us that don't have Cawl.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
bortass wrote:Well I'm hoping there's some truth to a rumor I saw in general discussion about a day 1 FAQ that mentioned Dartmouth and engineers are being move to the HQ slot. I think that will really help us get the larger formations, especially those of us that don't have Cawl.
That is a great autocorrect!
Also, I am hoping for some point corrections for Kataphrons (and the new flying Marines).
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Post by: str00dles1
em_en_oh_pee wrote:bortass wrote:Well I'm hoping there's some truth to a rumor I saw in general discussion about a day 1 FAQ that mentioned Dartmouth and engineers are being move to the HQ slot. I think that will really help us get the larger formations, especially those of us that don't have Cawl.
That is a great autocorrect!
Also, I am hoping for some point corrections for Kataphrons (and the new flying Marines).
Ha, Dartmouth. But yea he needs to be a cheap HQ, same with Engineer. All for Kataphrons getting much cheaper and yea, the jump pack marines are crazy expensive
45404
Post by: bortass
Lol, I'm stuck on a kindle in an airport. I forgot to check on autocorrect. Datasmith and engineseer....sigh
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
bortass wrote:Lol, I'm stuck on a kindle in an airport. I forgot to check on autocorrect. Datasmith and engineseer....sigh
Datasmith HQ would be a godsend! They totally won't do that!
81364
Post by: WrentheFaceless
If anything the Enginseer should be a cheapo HQ for us
106426
Post by: Aaranis
That would be a dream come true (I have pretty low standards for dreams yes), and would make me consider other buying options for my army. I'd be happy to not have to build an paint a second Dominus. I don't like monopose models so I try to limit them in my army.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Aaranis wrote:That would be a dream come true (I have pretty low standards for dreams yes), and would make me consider other buying options for my army. I'd be happy to not have to build an paint a second Dominus. I don't like monopose models so I try to limit them in my army.
Do what I am doing - use the FW models. I have the Archmagos count-as for my Cawl and he can come off the Abeyant and be a TPD. I also have the FW Magos I can use as a TPD.
I have the official models too, because they are gorgeous, but I needed HQ variety!
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Post by: PyrhusOfEpirus
[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:Suzuteo wrote:PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:You need thicker skin or dont post here. I thought nothing you quoted either time you called this guy out for his attitude was out of line
First, I was not personally offended. I just thought it was a very non-productive attitude to just definitively say "this is bad" or "this is a waste of money," especially when other groups are taking a totally different tack.
Second, this is exactly the sort of post nobody needs to see on a forum. It doesn't help anyone; it just makes people feel less welcome or free to speak.
gally912 wrote:Well, as a side note in this Destroyer discussion, I used them today against orks!
I needed them to pull vehicle duty, because he was barreling down with Battlewagons, meganobz, and stormboys.
Of the three I brought, 2 of them died to overheating, on different turns.
However! They put about 12 wounds on a Battlewagon to bring it down, followed by another ~9 on the MANz squad the following turn.
As the codex originally said, I had no problem spending the lives of these servitors. To shut down one of his assaulting unit's threat range transport, and then gutting a second assaulting unit the next turn? They more than made their points worth.
This game, anyways.
I think you're using them as intended. I honestly don't think Gets Hot is a dealbreaker. I mean, it wasn't in 7th, and we have lower point costs and more rerolls today. The way I see it, you're risking a worst case scenario 15.55% chance of death (assuming you're rerolling 1s) to deal 2-3 turns worth of damage in one turn. Setting aside the huge dividends paid when you prematurely remove a unit from the board, how many units survive 3 turns of combat and how often do you wish a unit just had another turn or two to deal damage?
you complained twice about his normal discussion level comments, now including your response to me, have added 3 useless comments about what you think the forum needs. The forum is fine, you need thicker skin. Nobody else is complaining, feel free to go away.
All right folks. Everyone take a breath.
I can see where Suzuteo was coming from - the language was a bit confrontational.
I do not think saying "feel free to go away" is productive at all. This thread is for any of the Omnissiah's followers, no matter their preference for units.
Lets keep the discussion here positive and productive!
44304
Post by: str00dles1
Two optimal lists I think that would be pretty standard for tourney at the moment using Battalion. Would be other lists if you want to do heavy support focused with more dakkabots and spiders. Can swap laser spider for AA spider
Knight in list - 1984 PTS, 11 units to deploy
Detachment - Battalion. 6CPs
HQ: 385
Cawl
TPD with Stub/VB
Elite: 52
Datasmith
Troop: 200
5 Rangers
5 Vanguard
5 Vanguard
5 Vanguard
Heavy: 811
3 Dakkabots
3 Dakkabots
Spider with Laser, Stub, Stub
Detachment Super Heavy 536
Crusader Knight with Stub, Stub, Gatling, RFBC, Heavy Flamer, Feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------
No Knight list - 1948. Wiggleroom for heavy weapons for troops possibly or melee weapons to the vanguard leader.
Detachment - Battalion. 6CPs
HQ: 385
Cawl
TPD with Stub/VB
Elite: 312
Datasmith
5 Infiltrator FB,Taser
5 Infiltrator FB,Taser
Troop: 250
5 Rangers 2 Snipers
5 Vanguard
5 Vanguard
5 Vanguard
Heavy: 811
3 Dakkabots
3 Dakkabots
Spider with Laser, Stub, Stub
Fast: 190
2 Laschicken Walker
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Post by: rvd1ofakind
Still think Infiltrators are a must due to low mobility in the first list
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also. Icarus Onager can't be underestimated. If you fire all 3 guns at optimal ground targets, the weapon is as strong as neutron pure damage wise. And it's cheaper. If you fire at fliers, array is about 50% better than neutron firing at ground cognis included.
Ofc we still need neutron for t7-8 3+ armour dudes.
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Post by: str00dles1
rvd1ofakind wrote:Still think Infiltrators are a must due to low mobility in the first list
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also. Icarus Onager can't be underestimated. If you fire all 3 guns at optimal ground targets, the weapon is as strong as neutron pure damage wise. And it's cheaper. If you fire at fliers, array is about 50% better than neutron firing at ground cognis included.
Ofc we still need neutron for t7-8 3+ armour dudes.
Yea, that's why I made two. As much as I love the knight, I think the Non knight but be a bit more completive because it has the flexibility.
Correct on Icarus, I think its great also. It could really shine more in a Heavy Detachment instead of Battalion
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Are CP really worth it? Truly? I feel like the ~5 we get from Spearheads and Outriders suffice, right? Battalion seems restrictive, because I want ~4 Heavy slots almost always.
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Post by: str00dles1
em_en_oh_pee wrote:Are CP really worth it? Truly? I feel like the ~5 we get from Spearheads and Outriders suffice, right? Battalion seems restrictive, because I want ~4 Heavy slots almost always.
Post up your list so I can see. I agree, id really want 4 heavy min, outrider forced you to fit in another chicken walker though, want sure where I would fit that.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
str00dles1 wrote: em_en_oh_pee wrote:Are CP really worth it? Truly? I feel like the ~5 we get from Spearheads and Outriders suffice, right? Battalion seems restrictive, because I want ~4 Heavy slots almost always.
Post up your list so I can see. I agree, id really want 4 heavy min, outrider forced you to fit in another chicken walker though, want sure where I would fit that.
5 CP Total
Spearhead Detachment
HQ:
Belisarius Cawl
[250]
Troops:
(5) Vanguard
2x Arc Rifles, Omnispex
[65]
(5) Vanguard
2x Arc Rifles, Omnispex
[65]
Heavy:
(3) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[330]
(3) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[330]
Onager Dunecrawler
Icarus Array, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[130]
Onager Dunecrawler
Icarus Array, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[130]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[143]
Vanguard Detachment
HQ:
Tech-Priest Dominus
Volkite Blaster, Macrostubber
[135]
Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Fist
[52]
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Fist
[52]
(5) Sicarian Infiltrators
Flachette & Tasers
[130]
(5) Sicarian Infiltrators
Flachette & Tasers
[130]
Troops:
(5) Vanguard
2x Arc Rifles
[58]
[2000]
So instead of going for Outrider, I went Vanguard because we are taking enough Elites normally anyhow. I know, I know... two Datasmiths will likely be frowned on a bit. But if I don't want to bunker up both of my units of Kastelans, this lets me pair them off (with Cawl near one and a TPD near another). Omnispex are because I had 14pt leftover!
I have Infiltrators in the list to help alleviate some mobility issues. This is also my non-Knight list, which I will be working towards in my faction-specific League locally (can't do a Knight as its a different faction, but I can do AdMech because its unified now!).
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Post by: Wulfey
I feel like if you are going to go that heavy into Phosphor bots that you will need some psychic protection. Those 330 point units are going to be terribly vulnerable to debuffs. Greyfax is 85 points + -1CP penalty to bring (unless you pair her with two suicide tempestus scion teams). If you put greyfax in your cawl bubble then you get 2 deny attempts at 24" range and at a +1. She also is freaky effective against other psychers.
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Post by: Suzuteo
rvd1ofakind wrote:Still think Infiltrators are a must due to low mobility in the first list
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also. Icarus Onager can't be underestimated. If you fire all 3 guns at optimal ground targets, the weapon is as strong as neutron pure damage wise. And it's cheaper. If you fire at fliers, array is about 50% better than neutron firing at ground cognis included.
Ofc we still need neutron for t7-8 3+ armour dudes.
Agreed. I think every list is going to need Infiltrators, Dragoons, or some Imperium detachment with transports. You can't win the game pushing nothing but slow-moving artillery pieces around.
The volume of fire that Icarus Crawlers puts out is impressive. It is as you say. They are as efficient as Neutron against mid-weight targets and moreso against light-weight targets (but not nearly as efficient as Kastelans), but they are crazy efficient against anything that flies. I think OP has it right though: I am currently am doing Battalion with 1 Icarus, 1 Neutron, 1 2x Kastelan, and 1 RFBC Crusader. (I don't feel like I can push out a Crawler for another Kastelan unit, so the Crusader fills in.)
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Post by: Alpharius
That's a really good idea - and since that would also mean everyone is following RULE #1, it's mandatory too.
112586
Post by: gally912
My list is very close to yours em-en-oh-pee.
Trying to work a Crusader in cause I just got one, and I dont know if I have the stomach to buy another box of Kastelens 
Any thoughts on Powersword Infiltrators? Especially now we can mix and match?
112605
Post by: Pedroig
Culexus Assassins are also useful for Psychic protection.
Now I'm not sure if the following would "count" or not, but as it does have AdMech in it it...
Lucius Spearhead - 920pts
HQ:
Tech-Priest Dominus - 135pts
Volkite Blaster, Macrostubber
Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith - 52pts
Gamma, Fist
Heavy:
(3) Kastelan Robot - 330pts
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
Onager Dunecrawler - 130pts
Icarus Array, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
Onager Dunecrawler - 130 pts
Icarus Array, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
Onager Dunecrawler - 143pts
Neutron Laser & Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
Iron Hands Outriders: - 585
HQ:
Chaplain on Bike (1) - 99pts
1 Chaplain: Crozius arcanum,Storm bolter,Twin boltgun
FA:
Assault Squad (5) - 73pts
1 Space Marine Sergeant: Power sword,Bolt pistol,Combat shield
4 Space Marine: Bolt pistol,Chainsword
Assault Squad (5) - 73pts
1 Space Marine Sergeant: Power sword,Bolt pistol,Combat shield
4 Space Marine: Bolt pistol,Chainsword
Scout Bike Squad (5) - 135pts
1 Scout Biker Sergeant: Bolt pistol,Astartes shotgun,Combat knife,Twin boltgun
4 ScoutBiker: Bolt pistol,Astartes shotgun,Combat knife,Twin boltgun
DT:
Razorback (1) - 102pts
1 Razorback: Twin assault cannon,Storm bolter
Razorback (1) - 102pts
1 Razorback: Twin assault cannon,Storm bolter
Hortensio, House Teryn Super Heavy - 495pts
Crusader, TC, AC, and HS - 495pts
Total 2000
26790
Post by: Gitsplitta
Just finished my first game of 8th tonight, thought I'd share some observations to add to the collective.
2k pts vs. ork horde... 60 storm boys, 60 boys, some artillery and characters. We played end-to-end specifically because my opponent wanted to see how he'd fare having to cross the table. We both made mistakes (tactical and rules-wise) but it was a good learning experience. Please keep in mind these are my impressions from one game... I don't pretend that this is a definitive analysis.
Canticles: Not as good as last time around, but still useful. B
HQ: Cawl - Unbelieveable tank with the ability to dish out damage. A
HQ: TPD - Frankly I think his "aura" and healing ability make him worth his points. B
TP: 5-man ranger squad w/ two arquebii. God yes. A
TP: 5-man vanguard squads w/ 2 plasmas. Worked fine as screens and fire support. I overcharged the heck out of the plasmas for the 2+ to wound the orks... I like them. B
TP: Kataphron destroyers (grav) - They got charged early, but I thought they did fine until then. B
EL: datasmith - a must have, not particularly effective, but for what he does to make the robots better. B
EL: Infiltrators - gunned down by artillery, so no information really.
FA: Dragoon w/ tazer - underwhelming. C
FA: Ballistari w/ TL Cognis lascannons - very useful. A
HV: Dakkabots - A (no surprise there)
HV: Icarus Dunecrawler - it was OK. Probably not the best match-up for it. Might have just been my dice rolls. B-
HV: Neutron Dunecrawler - see above. B-
Overall it wasn't a bad list & I did manage to squeak out a narrow victory, though we only got to turn 3. I have some ideas I'd like to try but I need some more models first.
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Post by: Wulfey
Grav versus orcs is gonna be sads time. Did the arquebii actually kill anything?
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Post by: Suzuteo
Gitsplitta wrote:Just finished my first game of 8th tonight, thought I'd share some observations to add to the collective.
2k pts vs. ork horde... 60 storm boys, 60 boys, some artillery and characters. We played end-to-end specifically because my opponent wanted to see how he'd fare having to cross the table. We both made mistakes (tactical and rules-wise) but it was a good learning experience. Please keep in mind these are my impressions from one game...
Yeah, these grades are pretty much in line with what we would expect against Green Tide. Stuff like Neutron Crawlers, Infiltrators, and Dragoons are not very efficient against Boyz. Their best use is pretty much bubble wrap.
I am curious though. How did the Ork artillery perform in comparison to our own? I don't remember seeing them as much in 7th.
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Post by: Aaranis
Suzuteo wrote: Gitsplitta wrote:Just finished my first game of 8th tonight, thought I'd share some observations to add to the collective.
2k pts vs. ork horde... 60 storm boys, 60 boys, some artillery and characters. We played end-to-end specifically because my opponent wanted to see how he'd fare having to cross the table. We both made mistakes (tactical and rules-wise) but it was a good learning experience. Please keep in mind these are my impressions from one game...
Yeah, these grades are pretty much in line with what we would expect against Green Tide. Stuff like Neutron Crawlers, Infiltrators, and Dragoons are not very efficient against Boyz. Their best use is pretty much bubble wrap.
I am curious though. How did the Ork artillery perform in comparison to our own? I don't remember seeing them as much in 7th.
I would've said that Taser Infiltrators/Taser Dragoons were nice against Orks due to their numbers and bad save, if you proc the Tesla hits you can have a good killstreak. Easier than hitting Space Marines with 3+ saves anyhow.
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Post by: gally912
Aaranis wrote:[
I would've said that Taser Infiltrators/Taser Dragoons were nice against Orks due to their numbers and bad save, if you proc the Tesla hits you can have a good killstreak. Easier than hitting Space Marines with 3+ saves anyhow.
Poor dragoons. They kill 1.75 boys (3.5 if taze goes off). Put 1.5 wounds on a lowly Trukk, maybe 3 if taze goes off.
Heck, TWO Dragoons that rolled 6's to hit for ALL of their attacks would just barely take out a single ork trukk. Depends on those ramshakle rolls.
They need an AP value or *something*
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Post by: Aaranis
gally912 wrote: Aaranis wrote:[
I would've said that Taser Infiltrators/Taser Dragoons were nice against Orks due to their numbers and bad save, if you proc the Tesla hits you can have a good killstreak. Easier than hitting Space Marines with 3+ saves anyhow.
Poor dragoons. They kill 1.75 boys (3.5 if taze goes off). Put 1.5 wounds on a lowly Trukk, maybe 3 if taze goes off.
Heck, TWO Dragoons that rolled 6's to hit for ALL of their attacks would just barely take out a single ork trukk. Depends on those ramshakle rolls.
They need an AP value or *something*
Well if it's the real mathammer that's pretty sad. I killed two Primaris Marines on the charge when I used mine in a game against the starter box Primaris, and when the Captain killed him he exploded, finishing off the Captain. That's the best use I've had of my Dragoon so far, go die in a melee to dish out a bunch of mortal wounds. I'll try it with the Radium Jezzail someday.
I'll build a quick list to try the Fistellan Robots in a game, I know they're best used in Protector Protocols but I love the mental picture of a Robot punching tanks
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Post by: Suzuteo
gally912 wrote: Aaranis wrote:[
I would've said that Taser Infiltrators/Taser Dragoons were nice against Orks due to their numbers and bad save, if you proc the Tesla hits you can have a good killstreak. Easier than hitting Space Marines with 3+ saves anyhow.
Poor dragoons. They kill 1.75 boys (3.5 if taze goes off). Put 1.5 wounds on a lowly Trukk, maybe 3 if taze goes off.
Heck, TWO Dragoons that rolled 6's to hit for ALL of their attacks would just barely take out a single ork trukk. Depends on those ramshakle rolls.
They need an AP value or *something*
Wait what? Each Dragoon attacks 3 times with a S8 attack. 67% to hit, explodes 25% of hits. Boyz have T4 and a 6+ save. It deals 2 damage per hit, reduced to 1 for an Ork Boy.
(3)(.67) = 2 hits
(2)(.75) + (2)(3)(.25) = 3 hits after explodes
(3)(.83) = 2.5 wounds
(2.5)(.83) = 2.075 damage
Should be killing two Orks per Dragoon on average. (Or is it really late and my brain is fried?)
What's a Trukk's statline?
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Post by: gally912
Aaranis wrote:
Well if it's the real mathammer that's pretty sad. I killed two Primaris Marines on the charge when I used mine in a game against the starter box Primaris, and when the Captain killed him he exploded, finishing off the Captain. That's the best use I've had of my Dragoon so far, go die in a melee to dish out a bunch of mortal wounds. I'll try it with the Radium Jezzail someday.
Excuse my scratch paper mathhammer...
Two dragoons with all 6's, vs a trukk (T6, 10W, 4+)
18 hits (given)
12 wounds (3+)
6 Saves (4+)
2 converted to 1 damage (6+ ramshakle)
-----------
11 damage vs Trukks 10W
Average dice it gets way worse.
TWO Dragoons vs 1 Venom (T5, 6W, 4+)
6 Hits (3+, Taze once)
4 Wounds (3+)
2 Saves (4+)
-----------
4 damage vs Venom's 6W
I appreciate their mobility, but boy do they sure not kill anything well outside of low armor, multiwound models. Which I'm not seeing a lot of. Even the most paper vehicles have a 4+ save.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ^^^Thats fair, 1.75 vs 2 was a lowball. Apologies for in head probability functions.
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Post by: Gitsplitta
Wulfey wrote:Grav versus orcs is gonna be sads time. Did the arquebii actually kill anything?
The two arquebii did work. Took out 2 characters on their own (warboss on bike and waaaagh banner). That's with only 3 turns of shooting. In my opponent's opinion, they were the stars of the game.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Wulfey wrote:Grav versus orcs is gonna be sads time. Did the arquebii actually kill anything?
Grav isnt as bad as it used to be, wounding on 3's now instead of 6s, its actually useful against orks now.
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Post by: Mandragola
I’m a bit baffled by the degree people prefer vanguard over rangers. 30” range, occasional ap-1 and better strength mean that rangers do better damage to MEQs at all ranges, except 15-18”. Reducing the enemy’s toughness by 1 in melee doesn’t really do very much, when admech have so few units able to take advantage of it.
I think that both of the 6 to wound abilities are probably going to be negligible in effect, though the vanguard one does at least help if you’re shooting at tough models. The ranger one works on 1 shot in 36 (when you roll a 6 to wound and they roll the number for their save that would have saved them but now doesn’t). The vanguard one is harder to calculate, since it has no effect on 1-wound models, who are kind of the primary target of vanguard.
I don’t hate vanguard, I just think the two units are probably roughly equivalent. I think you probably give plasma to vanguard, Transuranic to rangers and arc rifles to whichever you like.
I realise that long-range fire from rangers doesn’t do huge amounts – but it does something. Games are often won and lost because of a model here or there on an objective, and being able to snipe a few away will be useful.
I’ve skipped the argument on destroyers. I will say that I think it looks like plasma ones do very respectable damage, to just about anything. Each one is, in effect, armed with a battlecannon, plus a phosphor blaster. With a TPD nearby they shouldn’t blow up too much.
Speaking of the TPD, I think any of his weapons could work. The ray gun is probably coolest. I think the serpeta is the least fun. You get to fire it with your other weapon, but it doesn’t do a lot. I’d rather have the pistol for if I get caught in combat, and to save a couple of points.
I was lucky enough to win a starter set and a box of skitarii rangers/vanguard as prizes in a couple of tournaments. I’m thinking of running them with my 3 existing knights in a list like this:
Superheavy detachment
Warden with reaper, stubber, flamer. 466
Paladin with reaper, 2 stubbers. 458
Errant with fist, stubber. 436
Patrol detachment
TPD with neutron and stubber. 141
5 rangers with 2 arc rifles 58
5 rangers with 2 transuronics 100
3 destroyers with plasma and blasters 210
Icarus dunecrawler 130
I don’t own the destroyers yet. I’ve just done some adding up and spotted that two Phosphor robots with a datasmith would cost only a bit more, but are probably quite a lot better. Any suggestions on where I could save the 40 points – or should I instead just field all 20 of the Skitarii I own?
Ironically my army is actually from Mars. My knights are house Taranis – painted up to go with my pre-heresy imperial fists (who pay a visit to mars in the early days of the heresy).
The Errant has a fist just because it looks good that way, by the way. I think the reaper is almost always better, but then it can always kick things. It would probably be better if all my knights were crusaders, but then I wouldn’t be able to take any fun stuff.
So I guess the question is: should I buy robots, destroyers, or nothing and just run my infantry? In the longer term I think I’ll pick up Cawl and maybe another starter set to expand the army further, so I expect both will come in useful. I still have the sprue from the warden with the carapace weapons for the knights, so I could stick a couple of those on to make up points. My other knights are too old to have come with the sprue, sadly.
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Post by: str00dles1
Mandragola wrote:Superheavy detachment
Warden with reaper, stubber, flamer. 466
Paladin with reaper, 2 stubbers. 458
Errant with fist, stubber. 436
Patrol detachment
TPD with neutron and stubber. 141
5 rangers with 2 arc rifles 58
5 rangers with 2 transuronics 100
3 destroyers with plasma and blasters 210
Icarus dunecrawler 130
I don’t own the destroyers yet. I’ve just done some adding up and spotted that two Phosphor robots with a datasmith would cost only a bit more, but are probably quite a lot better. Any suggestions on where I could save the 40 points – or should I instead just field all 20 of the Skitarii I own?
Id drop the Destoryers and the 2 snipers. Also would drop the TPD with Neut and keep him at his basic loadout.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
gally912 wrote:My list is very close to yours em-en-oh-pee.
Trying to work a Crusader in cause I just got one, and I dont know if I have the stomach to buy another box of Kastelens
Any thoughts on Powersword Infiltrators? Especially now we can mix and match?
Not sure there is much a reason to mix and match, really. They aren't benefiting from the swords really.
And I have a list with a Crusader, but I think I mentioned I can't use it in my league games so I am worrying about it later. I mostly trim to one Robot squad and Datasmith, drop an Onager or two and cut the Infiltrators I think. Its slim, which worries me. It is so hard to easily fit in a Knight now!
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Post by: Tsol
Mandragola wrote:I’m a bit baffled by the degree people prefer vanguard over rangers. 30” range, occasional ap-1 and better strength mean that rangers do better damage to MEQs at all ranges, except 15-18”. Reducing the enemy’s toughness by 1 in melee doesn’t really do very much, when admech have so few units able to take advantage of it.
I think that both of the 6 to wound abilities are probably going to be negligible in effect, though the vanguard one does at least help if you’re shooting at tough models. The ranger one works on 1 shot in 36 (when you roll a 6 to wound and they roll the number for their save that would have saved them but now doesn’t). The vanguard one is harder to calculate, since it has no effect on 1-wound models, who are kind of the primary target of vanguard.
I don’t hate vanguard, I just think the two units are probably roughly equivalent. I think you probably give plasma to vanguard, Transuranic to rangers and arc rifles to whichever you like.
I realise that long-range fire from rangers doesn’t do huge amounts – but it does something. Games are often won and lost because of a model here or there on an objective, and being able to snipe a few away will be useful.
I’ve skipped the argument on destroyers. I will say that I think it looks like plasma ones do very respectable damage, to just about anything. Each one is, in effect, armed with a battlecannon, plus a phosphor blaster. With a TPD nearby they shouldn’t blow up too much.
Speaking of the TPD, I think any of his weapons could work. The ray gun is probably coolest. I think the serpeta is the least fun. You get to fire it with your other weapon, but it doesn’t do a lot. I’d rather have the pistol for if I get caught in combat, and to save a couple of points.
I was lucky enough to win a starter set and a box of skitarii rangers/vanguard as prizes in a couple of tournaments. I’m thinking of running them with my 3 existing knights in a list like this:
Superheavy detachment
Warden with reaper, stubber, flamer. 466
Paladin with reaper, 2 stubbers. 458
Errant with fist, stubber. 436
Patrol detachment
TPD with neutron and stubber. 141
5 rangers with 2 arc rifles 58
5 rangers with 2 transuronics 100
3 destroyers with plasma and blasters 210
Icarus dunecrawler 130
I don’t own the destroyers yet. I’ve just done some adding up and spotted that two Phosphor robots with a datasmith would cost only a bit more, but are probably quite a lot better. Any suggestions on where I could save the 40 points – or should I instead just field all 20 of the Skitarii I own?
Ironically my army is actually from Mars. My knights are house Taranis – painted up to go with my pre-heresy imperial fists (who pay a visit to mars in the early days of the heresy).
The Errant has a fist just because it looks good that way, by the way. I think the reaper is almost always better, but then it can always kick things. It would probably be better if all my knights were crusaders, but then I wouldn’t be able to take any fun stuff.
So I guess the question is: should I buy robots, destroyers, or nothing and just run my infantry? In the longer term I think I’ll pick up Cawl and maybe another starter set to expand the army further, so I expect both will come in useful. I still have the sprue from the warden with the carapace weapons for the knights, so I could stick a couple of those on to make up points. My other knights are too old to have come with the sprue, sadly.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I only take Rangers (now in 8th) when I give them sniper rifles and camp on objectives. Vanguards for me have been a "I can't ever see a reasons to take rangers over them" for two main reasons; first 30 shots at 18" and 30 more shots on overwatch. It just drowns your enemies in sheer volley fire. It doesn't matter what their units are, be it an ork boy or a terminator they are going to winch when they see you pick up that many die. The second is actually the minues one toughness. The fact that I can wound ork boyz or marines on a 4+ in melee is huge*. Especially if you take sergeants with melee kits. As others have stated, see sargent with power mace or taser goad with either pistol, suddenly does much more work than one would expect, rangers aren't bad, and work well in the case you metioned (sit far away on an objective and take advantage of their 30" range). They can also molest marines and other 24" range units to force them out of cover or take odd casualites for being defensive. But due to my local meta heavily favoring, 1/2 turn charges, they play Tyranids, Orkz, Chaos, the volley fire for me has been much more useful. This may change as our groups meta changes.
*Remember, combo this with +1 Strength Canticle and suddenly you're wounding stuff on a 2+. My disco tech priests become even more scary when they are attack with their now S6, AP-1 Mortal wound on 6s on marines who are thoughness 3 when tied up in melee. Vanguard just like in 7th seem to be a huge synergy unit.
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Post by: Mandragola
Thanks Tsol, that's a good set of logic. Interesting point about melee. Shame they can't all have pistols!
So maybe I should just keep the 20 guys I've got and make them into 5-man units. I'm a bit nervous about their staying power, or lack thereof, but you do get a lot of cool guns for your points.
I think I'll go with the Kastellan robots rather than the destroyers for now.
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Post by: rvd1ofakind
Some guys in my local gaming store(where we play) are reluctant to accept the house/tournament rule for first turn (the dude who deploys everything first gets a +1 on a roll-off).
I REALLY want to just bring cawl, a squad of 6 kastelans and vanilla vanguard to screen. If anyone has a problem with that, I'll say I want to go first and this is the way to stuff the most points into 1 unit. I thought you guys liked that rule :^)
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Post by: str00dles1
So after looking more and how the local meta is, I'm thinking of replacing TPD with Greyfax. Still Battleforged since its all "Imperum" so it keeps the Command Points. Nids really crush Admech with all the psychers and her getting to dominate a enemy unit can be useful. Best is to stick her around Cawl and guard the robots for a bit. Plus only 85 points is really good.
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Post by: gally912
str00dles1 wrote:So after looking more and how the local meta is, I'm thinking of replacing TPD with Greyfax. Still Battleforged since its all "Imperum" so it keeps the Command Points. Nids really crush Admech with all the psychers and her getting to dominate a enemy unit can be useful. Best is to stick her around Cawl and guard the robots for a bit. Plus only 85 points is really good.
Worth the trade for Canticles, you think?
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Post by: rvd1ofakind
gally912 wrote:str00dles1 wrote:So after looking more and how the local meta is, I'm thinking of replacing TPD with Greyfax. Still Battleforged since its all "Imperum" so it keeps the Command Points. Nids really crush Admech with all the psychers and her getting to dominate a enemy unit can be useful. Best is to stick her around Cawl and guard the robots for a bit. Plus only 85 points is really good.
Worth the trade for Canticles, you think?
Might as well just get another detachments with her
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Post by: str00dles1
Yea, that's true. Can take her as a single hero and loose 1 CP.
Canticles as is are pretty meh. Cover is good at the start, then its pretty meh
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Post by: axisofentropy
+1 save when going second is worth more than 1 command point.
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Post by: Suzuteo
Aaranis wrote:
Well if it's the real mathammer that's pretty sad. I killed two Primaris Marines on the charge when I used mine in a game against the starter box Primaris, and when the Captain killed him he exploded, finishing off the Captain. That's the best use I've had of my Dragoon so far, go die in a melee to dish out a bunch of mortal wounds. I'll try it with the Radium Jezzail someday.
Dragoons are probably one of the better units to take care of Primaris due to the 2 Damage on Taser Lance. (Kastelans or something with AP like Caliver Vanguard is typically better, but Primaris is in a frustratingly good position to attract overkill with its high-armor, 2 Wound body.)
Dragoon vs. Primaris
(3)(.67) = 2 hits
(2)(.75) + (2)(3)(.25) = 3 hits after explodes
(3)(.83) = 2.5 wounds
(2.5)(.33) = 0.83 unsaved wounds
Assuming normal distribution and the standard deviation of a single dice roll, you will kill a Primaris 46.04% of the time.
gally912 wrote:I appreciate their mobility, but boy do they sure not kill anything well outside of low armor, multiwound models. Which I'm not seeing a lot of. Even the most paper vehicles have a 4+ save.
Yes, Dragoons are an average unit. They are pretty bad against anything with 1 Wound and decent Armor save. But I think we sell them short on light vehicles, and we're being reductionist by just looking at these units in isolation without considering what they do for other units.
Dragoon vs. Trukk
(3)(.67) = 2 hits
(2)(.75) + (2)(3)(.25) = 3 hits after explodes
(3)(.67) = 2 wounds
(2)(.5) = 1 unsaved wounds
(1)(2) = 2 damage
Kastelan (no Protector Protocol) vs. Trukk
(18)(.67) = 12 hits
(12)(.5) = 6 wounds
(6)(.5) = 3 unsaved wounds
Dragoon is more efficient per point:
34 points per wound
36.67 points per wound
Has a cheaper instant kill:
5*68 = 340
4*110 = 440
And a cheaper minimum point investment.
But you know whats better than all Kastelans and all Dragoons? Kastelans with Dragoons. Because the latter will let the former safely set up for Protector Protocols without a Trukk jumping out of LOS cover to dump a barrel of Boyz on it. (Infiltrators also work. Vanguard to a lesser extent.)
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Post by: gally912
Not to dig your math, but Heavy Phosphor Blasters have -2 AP
So that would be 5 unsaved wounds, or half the trukk. They can also be buffed reliably. Two Kastelens in protector will eliminate a Trukk, even more efficient if nearby a reroll source. The Taze Dragoon doesnt benefit from TPD or Cawl
The thing is, I'm ok with Kastelens being so-so against (heavy) vehicles, its their only real downside. Thats why we have the Onager w/ Neutron, and Ironstriders with Lascannons. Kastelens are simply *excellent* against everything else.
Dragoons struggle to do any damage, to anything. Cracking light transports with ease, putting some hullpoints on other things, and instagibbing T4 (while locking them in melee with an AV11 walker) was the Dragoon's bread and butter last edition.
They really cant do any of that. I like the model, I just want it to do more than be a $50, 65pt harassment unit. I get way more bang for buck with infilitrators for movement, and vanguard are there to intercept.
Heck, now I'm wondering how the compare vs Breachers... :/
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Post by: rvd1ofakind
gally912 wrote:Not to dig your math, but Heavy Phosphor Blasters have -2 AP
So that would be 5 unsaved wounds, or half the trukk. They can also be buffed reliably. Two Kastelens in protector will eliminate a Trukk, even more efficient if nearby a reroll source. The Taze Dragoon doesnt benefit from TPD or Cawl
The thing is, I'm ok with Kastelens being so-so against (heavy) vehicles, its their only real downside. Thats why we have the Onager w/ Neutron, and Ironstriders with Lascannons. Kastelens are simply *excellent* against everything else.
Dragoons struggle to do any damage, to anything. Cracking light transports with ease, putting some hullpoints on other things, and instagibbing T4 (while locking them in melee with an AV11 walker) was the Dragoon's bread and butter last edition.
They really cant do any of that. I like the model, I just want it to do more than be a $50, 65pt harassment unit. I get way more bang for buck with infilitrators for movement, and vanguard are there to intercept.
Heck, now I'm wondering how the compare vs Breachers... :/
Yeah, I've also noticed that Dragoons are just complete garbage. But everyone kept praising them for some reason :/
I remodeled mine to balistarii
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Post by: Suzuteo
gally912 wrote:Not to dig your math, but Heavy Phosphor Blasters have -2 AP
Ah, good catch. I was actually expecting Kastelans to win against Trukks, and I was surprised by the result.
rvd1ofakind wrote:Yeah, I've also noticed that Dragoons are just complete garbage. But everyone kept praising them for some reason :/
I remodeled mine to balistarii
Complete garbage seems a bit harsh. They are average due to the 0 AP, but they're notable along with Infiltrators in being the only units that are mobile and won't implode the instant they enter CC. (I really wish Dragoons got a more reliable pistol option. Right now, in terms of melee, Dragoons and Infiltrators are roughly on par, but those 25 flechette rounds put them over, especially against GEQ.)
Ballistarii are good too. Still trying to wrap my head around the paradoxical notion of a mobile artillery platform though.
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Post by: Tsol
So some more input for you guys. I've played five games as Admech this week thus far. All of my lists were experimental and concerned variety over competitiveness (my opponents did the same) as we are all still on the learning curve of 8th. I fought Thousands suns 3 times and Orks/tyranids once.
HQs Cawl, TPD
Troops: 10 man Vanguard 3 plasma+omixpex, 10 Vanguard 3 arc rifles+omispex, 5 rangers, 2 snipers
Troops (heavy): 3 destroyers with heavy plasma and phospher, 3 destroyers, heavy grav and phospher, 3 breachers, arch claws and torsion cannons
Heavy: 2 Onegars with Iccaris array, Rock em sock em robots (range) with datasmith
Elites: 10 elctro disco priests, 10 jazz hands electro priests, 5 iniftrators (tasergoads) and 5 ruststalkers razors/chordclaws
This was my core for each game (add a few or subtract a few based on whim and point value change).
Thoughts and experinces. FYI, this is just how my forces performed.
Overall, Admech is a fantastic shooty army and surprisingly durable (overall). Obviously, they are slow and any objective style game will probably lose, almost guarteed, unless you spam ruststalkers or infiltrators. I'm assuming the codex will address this, because I am not exaggerating when I say, it's an autolose if you play objective games (where you'll have to goto your enemy). Stay in cover and abuse canticles, they are not as good as 7th, but they are far more important. Cawl is a MUST, don't bother playing Admech without him. Aruguably the worst part about Admech is Cawl, as any army that requires a specific hero unit to work is nonfunctional, and shows the GW team really dropped the ball hard here. I don't think the army is even competitive without Cawl. I say this because in all 5 games, his synergy buff of rerolls to hit was what carried the army every game. As soon as Cawl was killed (not hard to do in this edition FYI) or pushed away, all my guns simply didn't cut it, nor were they worth their costs. Even the rock em sock em robots with 18 shots don't do well without Cawl. In summary, fun army, but only one playstyle: Cawl, destroyers/Robots range build. No other way to play sadly, or so it seems (still new and too early to call any "This is how it is!")
Good news, Vangard and Rangers both performed well in all games. Dish out damage and can threaten anything. Bad news: they are weaker than glass. Even in cover and with their 6++, it doesn't mean jack. They need some sort of buff or point reduction or an extra save like before. A 6+ feel no pain would give them something much beter than their paultry 6++.
Vanguard are my best all around units, they tied up enemeies for about 1-2 rounds and can throw out so much dakka. More importantly, they hold gaunts or boyz long enough for my electropriests to countercharge.
Rangers, with snipers are amazing. They quickly became the biggest psychological threat on the battlefeild with their powerful sniper rifles. To the point that my opponents were firing all of their Laz cannons at the squad in hopes to remove them. Also Rangers overwatch with 2 shots each, I forgot that they have 30" range cut in have means all charges are double tapping. More useful than one might think.
Combat servitors: Overall, second best unit outside the Robots. The heavy grav cannon/phospher and heavy plasma cannon/phospher threw out lots of very powerful shots. Combined with Cawl's re-rolls (THIS IS A MUST OR DONT TAKE THEM, not a TPD but CAWL, BS4 is not good enough to justify their costs) and the other TPD repairing the squads each turn, made them soak most small arms fire with ease and just recovered next round from repairs. They delted terminator squads and ork boyz with equal effecitancy. I agree, that they are still too expensive considering by themsevles, they might be utter crap, but when babysat by Cawl, TDP or even just a techpreists (who can also repair them and is cheaper than the other two), these things in cover can be hard to kill and project a very large threat bubble. Weakness, too freakin expensive. I could have bought an Imperial knight fully kitted out with every bell and whistle and still would have been cheaper than these three squads, and possibly more useful.
Weakness: Super expensive. Also super fragile towards heavy hitters. Plasma and greater will melt these bastards. As soon as my opponents dealth with my Ranger snipers they'd turn their heavy weapons to these guys. Great at absorbing small arms fire, horrible at big guns. T5 and 3W with only a 3/4+ save won't suffice. I lost one to each lazcannon shot, even in cover/canticles.
Breachers were the worst unit I had each game. The Torsion cannons, never performed. I did do 3 dmg to a landraider with it. Nothing else was ever hit or killed by them in all 5 games. This did have bad luck involved, will keep using them but they are looking to be the worst unit in the codex in my mind thus far.
Onegars and Rock em sockem robots are the freakin bees knees. I cannot sing their praises enough, my opponets describe them as overpowered. I call them cool. FYI my opponets stopped firing (range shots) at both of these units due to their invulerable saves. Onegars, I actually recommend 3 of, due to if you lose one you lose the reroll of 1++save. It does makes the difference and its not a tax, because they are awesome. Note, Cognis Stubbors are overpriced. Don't take them. They didn't do anything in any of my games. If they come down to 5 pts per, I think they will be worth it but at 8pts per, just take more of other units.
Rock em Sock em robots, pretty much the same summary as the breachers/destroyers, ignores small arms, but relatively weak to heavy shots, but these guys I feel are appropriately costed and cheaper would be too good, anymore and they wouldn't be worth it. I lost a robot each game to a Lazcannon shot. Ageis mode is awesome. Not just for the 2+/4++ but the mortal wounds on 5/6++. KEEP THAT ABILITY IN MIND for my conclusion section.
Datasmith did his job, repaired and changed protocols, I won't say mandatory, but I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't want to take him, and he is not too expensive either.
Infiltrators: currently a must due to them being able to deep strike equivalnt. However, they never once did anything in any of my games. As they always died before they could charge. Their stubcarbine is surprisingly effective. Killed many orks, Gaunts and even some Rubric marines with their S4 and large volley fire. This is primarily bad luck. I even took 2 squads of 10 in one match. Failed every charge. And then were quickly blown off the table. I think they need either a speed buff or maybe a 5++ like in 7th. As the 2 wounds 4+6++ is not enough. Again, like the Vanguards/rangers/Breachers/Destroyers, I think a 6+ feel no pain, would do them all a great service.
Ruststalkers: Great! Cheap unit at 100pts, quick and excellent counter-chargers. I place these guys out of LOS and just behind my Vanguards or Breachers/Destroyers. Anything that gets too close, they either run out to become a human/robot shield or their countercharge causes much grief to my opponets. In particular, Chordclaws are awesome. These guys melted a 5 man terminator squad and Rubric marines. Super squishy, don't expect them to survive a countercharge. They are a hit once and whipe unit. If they don't wipe the enemy, and your opponents does not think the original unit he charged is still worth attack and pick these ruststalkers instead, don't expect any to survive. Also ALWAYS keep them out of LOS. They die to a stiff breeze. Again, would really benfit fomr a 5/6+ Feel not pain. Or at least a 5++!
Electropreists: laughbly bad in 7th, arugably most improved in 8th. Although more expensive than 7th, for 140/160 pts for Disco Sticks and Jazz hands, they are worth every point. Causing mortal wounds by just charging (roll a D6 for every enemey model in the charged unit,every 6 is a mortal wound), quickly made both my buddies hate them almost as much as my Destroyers and Robots. Discosticks if they get the charge off, just desytroy whatever they hit. S5 AP-2 DD3 6 D3mortal wounds, is nuts. After the first two games, both my opponets prioritized these guys, even over my snipers. Keep them out of LOS cause although a 5++/5+++ is not terrible, its not good either. Truest defintion of a glass cannon.
Jazzhands: I thought these guys were going to be crap quite frankly. Now they might be my favorite assualt unit in the army. 3 shots each at S5 and explode on 6s is SO MUCH BETTER in game than on paper. IF these guys are near Cawl... omg... It might even be worth it to take a TPD along with these mooks for his rerolls of 1. After all my games, I know this. I am buying 10 more Jazzhands (alrady have 10) and one more box of Rock em sockem robots. There was a round that I rolled 39 hits from my 10 man squad and was wounding on 3s (rubric marines), I killed the whole squad outright. Just like the discosticks though, these guys are super soft and my opponets after seeing their better than Vanguard like shot output, immediatly began focus firing on them. They aren't too survivable... Just a heads up.
Right now the army feels incomplete. I also play Deamons/Chaos, Space marines and Tyranids (thus far in 8th but not the others) and all of those factions feel fleshed out. Admech feels like its missing some core pieces, their complete lack of transports and fragile but high cost infantry is confusing at best, but servicable. The combat servitors, Robots and Cawl are sadly seem to be the center of the army and everything else might be to serve that force. At least its kinda fulffy, if nothing else. Right now, I'm building a new 2k list and going to inculde some striders drop some of the combat servitors and replace them with more vanguards/rangers to see how those will perform in greater numbers. Lastly, I think Admech might require fortifications to be proper. In particular a Bastion and/or a Void Shield generator. Bastion (or bunker) will allows 6 desyroyers of Grav or Plasma to fire with impunity for the first two turns of the game, at the loss of increased accuracy due to no longer reciving Cawl or TPD buffs. Canticles should still help though with rolls of 1.
The second and most obvious one is the Shield generator, which effectively is the answer to all my criticisms. Put Vanguard/rangers/breachers/desyroyers with a 4++ negates most of my thoughts on their biggest weaknesses.
Overall, first week impressions is they might be too expensive pointweise overall. I'd like to see slight buffs or slight point reductions in Vanguards and rangers maybe like 8/9pts per model or give them a 6+++ feel no paint. Breachers/Destyroyers, are powerful but they need either a 5++ or a 5+++ feel no pain to help mitagate Krak/plasma/Lazcannon fire as currently its too easy to kill these super epxensive units. That or drop their points. I think Desyroyers would be well costed at about 190/200pts and Breachers are stupidly overpriced, with their thiny amount of shots and short range. I'd say drop these guys to 150 for Trosion cannon and powerclaws and I'd think they'd be worth it.
Sicarians in general, might need some cost reducton, not too much. 100-140 pts is quite reasonable, but maybe increase their points to about 120-160 but give them all a 5++ and/or a 5/6+++ feel no pain and bam. I think they'd be very viable.
*note there is potential for abuse here. Rock em sock em robots Ageis rules specifically states add plus 1 to regualr and invulnerable saves. If they have are within the shield generator, they will have a 3++ save with Ageis and reflect on 5/6++. No one, I mean no one, will bother to shoot them.
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Post by: Azegoroth
 Tsol wrote:So some more input for you guys. I've played five games as Admech this week thus far. All of my lists were experimental and concerned variety over competitiveness (my opponents did the same) as we are all still on the learning curve of 8th. I fought Thousands suns 3 times and Orks/tyranids once....
Cool stuff, Just one little thing, The Discostick/Jazzhands charge rule is one d6 per model in the Charging unit, so one per suviving priest, not per enemy.
Otherwise, good to know that the kataphrons can dish out some hurt, Sadly I don't have cawl yet, but 2x Dominus should tide me over until I can get the big guy.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
My FLGS is starting an 8th Ed Escalation League the end of the month and it looks like Week 1 is going to be a 500pt Patrol Detachment, which really hurts as it makes me take a Troop slot. That means generally I have about 300pt to actually mess around with if I want any reasonable toys.
Here is what I am considering:
HQ:
Tech-Priest Dominus
Volkite Blaster, Macrostubber
[135]
Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Power Fist
[52]
Troops:
(6) Vanguard
2x Plasma Calivers, Arc Maul
[73]
Heavy:
(2) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[220]
[500]
Thoughts? Ideas?
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Post by: Gitsplitta
Do you want any friends after this is over? Those two robots are going to be a lawn-more at 500 points.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Gitsplitta wrote:Do you want any friends after this is over? Those two robots are going to be a lawn-more at 500 points.
Disclaimer: My shop is in Central NC and is one of the most competitive areas ever.
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Post by: Verviedi
...Which store do you go to? I'm also in Central NC.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
So with the expedited release of the Xenos and Militarium FW books, I'm hopefully Cyraxis will be not far behind as the only FW models without 8th rules will basically be Mechanicum/Ad Mech
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Hit Point Hobbies. Western edge of Central NC area. I am in the NC 40k Gamers FB group! You can probably attest to how competitive this area is.
Wren, man... I hope so. I truly do. Any excuse to get those GORGEOUS models on the table too. The Triaros, Thanatar, Thallax, and Vultarax would be welcome additions, for sure.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Well considering it was delayed because of 8th, it has to be done soon
I mean the tau models that were suposed to be in Cyraxis are going to be in the Xenos book with 8th, thats half the work right there
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Post by: Verviedi
em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Hit Point Hobbies. Western edge of Central NC area. I am in the NC 40k Gamers FB group! You can probably attest to how competitive this area is.
Wren, man... I hope so. I truly do. Any excuse to get those GORGEOUS models on the table too. The Triaros, Thanatar, Thallax, and Vultarax would be welcome additions, for sure.
Ah, excellent, I'll say hello at some point. That's about an hour 45 from where I live.
No, I really can't attest. The only store I'm near is GW Pinecrest, so I usually go there, or to the Armory (I've been there like twice, once to play Peregrine, once to restock my spray primer). GW Pinecrest is usually extremely casual, but two or three people ramp it up to tournament level at times. I don't really play enough 40k to fully examine it.
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Post by: Suzuteo
Speaking of hordes and canticles... remember that Litany of the Electromancer exists.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
 Verviedi wrote: em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Hit Point Hobbies. Western edge of Central NC area. I am in the NC 40k Gamers FB group! You can probably attest to how competitive this area is.
Wren, man... I hope so. I truly do. Any excuse to get those GORGEOUS models on the table too. The Triaros, Thanatar, Thallax, and Vultarax would be welcome additions, for sure.
Ah, excellent, I'll say hello at some point. That's about an hour 45 from where I live.
No, I really can't attest. The only store I'm near is GW Pinecrest, so I usually go there, or to the Armory (I've been there like twice, once to play Peregrine, once to restock my spray primer). GW Pinecrest is usually extremely casual, but two or three people ramp it up to tournament level at times. I don't really play enough 40k to fully examine it.
Well, in the Fayetteville area, it can get pretty serious. We host a load of large tourneys locally, so you should definitely swing by! Next one is the 1776 Tourney in July.
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Post by: Aaranis
Tsol wrote:So some more input for you guys. I've played five games as Admech this week thus far. All of my lists were experimental and concerned variety over competitiveness (my opponents did the same) as we are all still on the learning curve of 8th. I fought Thousands suns 3 times and Orks/tyranids once....
Thanks for taking the time to write all this, really good to read and provides us a fresh view from what we usually see in this thread (AKA Dakkastelan spam). I'm glad the Electro-Priests might have a use beyond collecting dust in 8th, if we do get a transport they'll be a must take I feel. And to say I sold the 5 Priests I got in my Eradication Cohort box... their models are expensive to buy :/ (as with all Mechanicus sadly). Have you ever tried the Robots equipped with fists, AKA Fistellans ? I tried a game with them but my opponent's list was too specific for it to be successful. I think they have a great potential. I wonder if having two squads of Robots in Aegis Protocols to move up the field with the rest of the army might be nice or not, one squad in full shooting and the other with Cremators/Fists.
It feels like if we want to have a viable army WITHOUT Cawl we need some allies from the Imperium. I'll go with two squads of Vigilator Sisters of Silence and the Scions from their Start Collecting box, that'll add me a fast transport and/or deep strike capabilities, as well as powerful shooting.
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Post by: rvd1ofakind
Aaranis wrote: Tsol wrote:So some more input for you guys. I've played five games as Admech this week thus far. All of my lists were experimental and concerned variety over competitiveness (my opponents did the same) as we are all still on the learning curve of 8th. I fought Thousands suns 3 times and Orks/tyranids once....
Thanks for taking the time to write all this, really good to read and provides us a fresh view from what we usually see in this thread (AKA Dakkastelan spam). I'm glad the Electro-Priests might have a use beyond collecting dust in 8th, if we do get a transport they'll be a must take I feel. And to say I sold the 5 Priests I got in my Eradication Cohort box... their models are expensive to buy :/ (as with all Mechanicus sadly). Have you ever tried the Robots equipped with fists, AKA Fistellans ? I tried a game with them but my opponent's list was too specific for it to be successful. I think they have a great potential. I wonder if having two squads of Robots in Aegis Protocols to move up the field with the rest of the army might be nice or not, one squad in full shooting and the other with Cremators/Fists.
It feels like if we want to have a viable army WITHOUT Cawl we need some allies from the Imperium. I'll go with two squads of Vigilator Sisters of Silence and the Scions from their Start Collecting box, that'll add me a fast transport and/or deep strike capabilities, as well as powerful shooting.
Complete hear say but the Sisters have been nerfed to the ground
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Well Dark Mechanicum FW rules just became better than Normal Ad Mech. They can repair all chaos vehicles and knights.
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Post by: rvd1ofakind
 WrentheFaceless wrote:Well Dark Mechanicum FW rules just became better than Normal Ad Mech. They can repair all chaos vehicles and knights.
source?
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Post by: Aaranis
Oh I know that, but they're still usable I believe. They can be a screen against Smite, as you have to target the closest enemy unit, and they can't be targeted, then the psyker won't be able to Smite. Two units are still a malus of -2 to all attempts at using a psychic power. They have a 7" movement and their swords are +1S -3 Rend and 1d3 Damage, at two attacks each (three for the Sister Superior). I'll try them out once I'll have them painted and I'll have bought my Tempestus box. Could be used to escort my Fistellans.
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Post by: Tsol
Aaranis wrote: Tsol wrote:So some more input for you guys. I've played five games as Admech this week thus far. All of my lists were experimental and concerned variety over competitiveness (my opponents did the same) as we are all still on the learning curve of 8th. I fought Thousands suns 3 times and Orks/tyranids once....
Thanks for taking the time to write all this, really good to read and provides us a fresh view from what we usually see in this thread (AKA Dakkastelan spam). I'm glad the Electro-Priests might have a use beyond collecting dust in 8th, if we do get a transport they'll be a must take I feel. And to say I sold the 5 Priests I got in my Eradication Cohort box... their models are expensive to buy :/ (as with all Mechanicus sadly). Have you ever tried the Robots equipped with fists, AKA Fistellans ? I tried a game with them but my opponent's list was too specific for it to be successful. I think they have a great potential. I wonder if having two squads of Robots in Aegis Protocols to move up the field with the rest of the army might be nice or not, one squad in full shooting and the other with Cremators/Fists.
It feels like if we want to have a viable army WITHOUT Cawl we need some allies from the Imperium. I'll go with two squads of Vigilator Sisters of Silence and the Scions from their Start Collecting box, that'll add me a fast transport and/or deep strike capabilities, as well as powerful shooting.
No problem. The last two weeks, I've been reading and watching as many battle reports online as possible until I finally got my buddies to start building lists so we can test things out. And I love Admech models but to be honest, I played about 10 games of Tyrands before I touched any other army, simply because they are my faves, and its about damn time they didn't suck. But I felt that there wasn't enough info or enough practical info up on any sites, so I shared what I've seen thus far. I almost bought that box! In hindsight I wish I had, but just a heads up. Ebay has electro priests for about 32-36 USD free shipping. If you like I can even point you towards some bits sellers who will sell you the heads/bodies of them as well for about $15. I got all 20 of mine buy buying two boxes of them and then bought bits heads/bodies for a 1/3 of the price and used up all my spare bits, literally my sprues are empty, as the box gives you enough to make both types if you get extra heads/bodies.
I was very tempted to take fisty robots, as with canticles they can the rerolls of 1 to hit or +1 strength for that extra spice, but I never did. Mostly due to the fact, I played armies that were always going to be better than me at melee (orks/tyranids) or armies which I didn't need that kind of melee power (thousand suns). However, I can tell you from my experience with carnifexes, (i run at least 3 per list) which have a very similar statline. Are sadly not really good. Not bad mind you, but not good. Hitting on 4+ with only 3-6 attacks is not reliable. Carnifexes has old one eye, who gives them 3+ to hit and scything talons grant rerolls of 1, which make them very, very mean. But without those buffs, my first couple games all they did was miss or kill one random mook. I fear the rock em sockem robots, will not be worth their points for the melee kit, due to both the fists being very expensive and their only average 4+ to hit. Maybe with the double melee and some luck you can do real work with them, but I'm skeptical. I now ONLY take Carnifexes with old one eye, no reason not too as he is such a powerful force multiplier he makes them worth all their points. The robots without some sort of buff to compensate for their poor to hit rolls, to me won't be worth it (unless targeting buildings or maybe vehicles/monstrous creatures, where just 4 hits should be enough to kill the unit). In short, the fists like all fists I've seen be it on termies or dreadnaughts, should be applies to small units of powerful stuff or buildings/vehicles. Stock, don't expect much as 2 hits will be your average per robot and that may not be enought to do the job for tanks or mosterious creatures but should do the job for heros. With buffs, such as rerolls of melee 1s and double attacks, I think they could prove very deadly to just about anything other than swarms. Again, this is me extrapolating my carnifex experience, not playtime of robots.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Azegoroth wrote: Tsol wrote:So some more input for you guys. I've played five games as Admech this week thus far. All of my lists were experimental and concerned variety over competitiveness (my opponents did the same) as we are all still on the learning curve of 8th. I fought Thousands suns 3 times and Orks/tyranids once....
Cool stuff, Just one little thing, The Discostick/Jazzhands charge rule is one d6 per model in the Charging unit, so one per suviving priest, not per enemy.
Otherwise, good to know that the kataphrons can dish out some hurt, Sadly I don't have cawl yet, but 2x Dominus should tide me over until I can get the big guy.
Thanks for the correction! I'll tell my mates, they'll be glad to hear I was doing it wrong. Cawl is worth it, not just as an army HQ (which sadly, I can't recommend playing Admech without him, at least until we get a codex to add our fluffy rules back which may help mitigate 8th overall lack of depth) but also as a freaking cool model. I spent about 15 hours painting him and I still never get tired of looking at his awesome design and style, not to mention it will grab lots of attention whereever it goes. The TPDs I have no idea if they are good or not, not once in any of my five games, did they do anything other than repair my Kataphrons or Cawl and grant their passive rerolls of 1 for shooting. My opponents never shot at them, never charged them and never got close enough for me to shoot with em. I feel like they might be too expensive though. At about 135pts, maybe if they boosted their buff to include melee rerolls, I think this would grant them enough synergy buff to include 1-3 in each of your detachments.
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Post by: Suzuteo
Also very interested in this. Making Tzeentch Dark Mechanicum is sort of a dream, but they just never had the proper rules support...
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Post by: Verviedi
++The so called "Angels" of the false omnissiah shall fall before our engines devious.++
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Post by: str00dles1
Yea I don't get why our guys cant repair a knight....
Speaking on knights, I'm sure it might get a FAQ (or correct me if I'm wrong) but cant a knight just be from <MARS> himself as his house? Then he gets reroll from Cawl?
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Post by: rvd1ofakind
Thoughts after a few more decisive victories. Damn, AdMech feel really powerful:
Kastelans - disgustingly good.
Onagers - really really good. Both neutron and icarus.
Cawl - must take
Vanguard - must take for bubblewrap. Special weapons are next to useless since they just die turn 1 or 2.
Ranger - I'd take 1 squad of 5. Snipers are weird since you have to place them where they can see everything but can't be seen by anyone... But they're effective when they get shots off. Can kill a character a turn easily.
Infiltrators - still think they're a must due to no mobility in the army. But tasers feel really useless vs 3+ armour, which due to the popularity of space marines, is plentiful. Swords?
Dominus - actually not as bad as I thought. Still would be hard pressed to take more than 1 :p
Knight Crusader - very much so worth the points.
Balistarii - has yet to do any damage...... Like.... seriously? xD
Most games are easily won on turn 2 or 3. Tabled a guy on turn 3 once.
Ofc these aren't very well optimised lists facing me, but the players are competant definitelly with tournament wins.
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Post by: Suzuteo
rvd1ofakind wrote:Thoughts after a few more decisive victories. Damn, AdMech feel really powerful:
Kastelans - disgustingly good.
Onagers - really really good. Both neutron and icarus.
Cawl - must take
Vanguard - must take for bubblewrap. Special weapons are next to useless since they just die turn 1 or 2.
Ranger - I'd take 1 squad of 5. Snipers are weird since you have to place them where they can see everything but can't be seen by anyone... But they're effective when they get shots off. Can kill a character a turn easily.
Infiltrators - still think they're a must due to no mobility in the army. But tasers feel really useless vs 3+ armour, which due to the popularity of space marines, is plentiful. Swords?
Dominus - actually not as bad as I thought. Still would be hard pressed to take more than 1 :p
Knight Crusader - very much so worth the points.
Balistarii - has yet to do any damage...... Like.... seriously? xD
Most games are easily won on turn 2 or 3. Tabled a guy on turn 3 once.
Ofc these aren't very well optimised lists facing me, but the players are competant definitelly with tournament wins.
Two units of 2 Kastelans or one? I'm still wondering how to pick between 2 units of Crawlers and 2 of Kastelans in my 3 slots. Currently, it is the variety pack: Icarus, Neutron, Kastelan, and an RFBC Crusader for more anti-horde. (The fact that each unit of Kastelans will need a Datasmith is sort of annoying too.)
Your statement on Infiltrators is exactly why I am taking Dragoons even if I know that there are more point efficient options.
You doing Thermal + Avenger on your Crusader?
Funny... Balistarii have mobility and range. How are they doing as objective grabbers? (Unless you're doing pure point games.)
Verviedi wrote:
++The so called "Angels" of the false omnissiah shall fall before our engines devious.++
Oooh. Question though: Are these going to have their own specific lines of models, or can we use regular Admech stuff as well? =\
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Post by: Aaranis
rvd1ofakind wrote:Thoughts after a few more decisive victories. Damn, AdMech feel really powerful:
Kastelans - disgustingly good.
Onagers - really really good. Both neutron and icarus.
Cawl - must take
Vanguard - must take for bubblewrap. Special weapons are next to useless since they just die turn 1 or 2.
Ranger - I'd take 1 squad of 5. Snipers are weird since you have to place them where they can see everything but can't be seen by anyone... But they're effective when they get shots off. Can kill a character a turn easily.
Infiltrators - still think they're a must due to no mobility in the army. But tasers feel really useless vs 3+ armour, which due to the popularity of space marines, is plentiful. Swords?
Dominus - actually not as bad as I thought. Still would be hard pressed to take more than 1 :p
Knight Crusader - very much so worth the points.
Balistarii - has yet to do any damage...... Like.... seriously? xD
Most games are easily won on turn 2 or 3. Tabled a guy on turn 3 once.
Ofc these aren't very well optimised lists facing me, but the players are competant definitelly with tournament wins.
Hmm, I think it's your Knight who's really helping you out. They look terrifying now.
Any news of the FAQ that was supposed to pop today ?
EDIT: Found the FAQ but no errata, was it officially announced anyway ?
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Post by: ross-128
Hmm... regarding the inability to repair Knights, how might Baneblade variants hold up as a substitute? Cawl and Dominus still wouldn't be able to repair a Baneblade, but an Enginseer can.
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Post by: Suzuteo
Aaranis wrote:
Any news of the FAQ that was supposed to pop today ?
EDIT: Found the FAQ but no errata, was it officially announced anyway ?
In case anyone cannot find it:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/17/new-edition-now-available-read-the-rules-get-the-t-shirtgw-homepage-post-1/
I really am not liking how they phrased dice rolls. They should probably introduce phrasing such as "pre-modified hit roll" or "natural hit roll" to eliminate the need for this fine-tuning.
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Post by: Gak Attack
I played 2 games today and won both of them- neither were landslides but I never felt like the game was running away from me either.
The first game against astra militarum was the scouring with night fight and the second was the relic with burning skies (I think that was the scenario..?)
Thoughts:
Night fighting rules are ROUGH for a primarily shooting army.
I played 1000 point games for reference.
Tech Priest: Awesome. I sat him near my dunecrawlers and (when I could) the grav destroyers for repairs (useful mainly to keep dunecrawlersat the top stat line), and for the rerolling 1s, which is GREAT on the dunecrawlers and only okay for the destroyers.
I also took 2 7 man squads of rangers with 2 TAs. I really like the snipers, but I've found their usefulness really depends on the terrain and what army you are facing. For instance, there was a guard army I faced and the commander was out of line of sight the whole game using his vox to send orders.. couldn't touch him. I also fought a hive tyrant (I think? big nid HQ) and while they certainly plinked off a few wounds, the sniper benefit was lost since anyone could target it. I added some extra guys to the squads because I had points left over, and honestly if you have the points I would definitely recommend it. It made the snipers survive that much longer. I'm not totally sold on omnixpex's. It seems like most of the time the characters that you would want to shoot at won't be in cover because for the most part they will be protected by the other models and they'll want to get in the middle of all of them to use the buff auras.
Infiltrators were definitely stars. I might even consider picking up another box. They are also good character killers, or at least harassers. Being able to put them down within 9" and drop 25 bs 3+ shots into something is great, and I've had great luck charging them in that turn provided I spend a command point to reroll one die. They are no slouch in combat either. I took them head to head with some genestealers and they came out on top (granted I shot and charged) You can even go light/ medium vehicle hunting if you combine it with the +1 strength canticle.
Destroyers: I really wanted to like these guys since I just bought some. I tried to. I almost didn't include them in my list after reading some reviews, but thought I should at least give them a fair shot. Well, when they hit, they certainly pack a punch. But the problem is actually getting them to hit. Part of this is in survivability- they die pretty quickly even in cover with 3 wounds, and each loss hurts. Even setting this aside however, bs4+ is so weak. They might be more useable with Cawl, but with just a normal tech priest the rerolling 1s isn't enough. I took the grav and the phosphor variety. I agree with some other posters that these could definitely be useful... but they are WAY too expensive right now. For almost the same price I could have gotten another unit of infiltrators and a sniper squad of rangers, which would be way more useful.
Dunecrawlers:
- Neutron flavor: Wow this thing really is as great as people say. I found myself using command point rerolls a few times when rolling for numbers of shots because the damage is just that good, and it's so easy to wound with a good bs and occasional rerolls, S10, and AP -4. Definitely awesome.
- Icarus flavor: I have to say I didn't love it during my first game, as there were no enemy flyers, but it did fine. Effective BS4+ is fine for the number of shots and damage/ AP it puts out, and it's on quite a durable platform. Compare this to the destroyers who die quite easily- no bueno.
In my second game, this guy ROCKED it, and almost took out a hive tyrant in one salvo. BS 2+ plus tech priest reroll means he hit all of his shots.. and those pack a punch! So I definitely will be continuing to include one of this variety, in case there are fly keywords popping up (and they do pop up.. landspeeders, tau suits, plus all the "true" flying stuff). It's pretty cheap and durable for the firepower it packed.
Small rules question- we looked and for the rules for cover it did not seem to differentiate between vehicles and infantry for "obscuring" so we read it as if a vehicle is all the way in a terrain piece they do in fact benefit from cover. Now they cant' go in ruins, but for instance on hills or in craters we played them as benefiting. Is this correct? If not could you please point me to a page number? Thanks!
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Post by: str00dles1
Depends on what cover rules you play with. If you do basic cover rules, if a unit is fully within a terrain feature, it has +1 to is armor save (never invulns)
If you used the advanced rules that calls out specific terrain, vehicles (PG 249 I believe) only get cover is 50% of them are obscured by the terrain feature. Infantry always have to be fully inside it.
It is odd one guy outside of cover means the whole squad is out for a realism standpoint, but it makes streamlining rules easy.
105165
Post by: rvd1ofakind
str00dles1 wrote:Depends on what cover rules you play with. If you do basic cover rules, if a unit is fully within a terrain feature, it has +1 to is armor save (never invulns)
If you used the advanced rules that calls out specific terrain, vehicles ( PG 249 I believe) only get cover is 50% of them are obscured by the terrain feature. Infantry always have to be fully inside it.
It is odd one guy outside of cover means the whole squad is out for a realism standpoint, but it makes streamlining rules easy.
But you can allocate 1 of the wounds to the guy and then benefit from cover on the others So no big.
112605
Post by: Pedroig
Thoughts from today's games...
1. Rangers, low man count (I play 6, but 5 will work) are a must take. They did not take a single casualty all day, course that might have had something to do with distractionOnagers... Their highlight was taking out a Broodlord in a 500 point match, in turn 1. (Ok, so an Icarus Array might have took off two points first...)
2. Vanguard, PC's are nice, but really, you just need these guys for bubble wrap, and fall back all the time. Who cares if they don't get to shoot. I will say, I got mighty lucky today with my Overwatch rolls, but Assault 3, either thinned the onslaught or threw a wound on a MC/Vehicle every Charge, -1 to Toughness becomes huge when you get another unit or two (or Dominus) into the mix.
3. Didn't play with Cawl, did just fine, didn't roll canticles, didn't matter.
4. Tabled one opponent turn 3. He went first, made the mistake of piecemeal "reserves", allowed me to focus fire on 2-3 units at a time.
5. Onager is simply mean, -1 to hit non-Fly with Icarus Array, ok, even hitting half the shots brings down anything under Toughness 7 pretty quick. More than toughness 7? NeutrOnager is your friend.
Hardest part to remember Overwatch is determined before Charge die are rolled.
As far as Horde, beat a Genestealer focused army, no silly mission or objectives, just kill count.
If you play objective missions, mobility is not the strong point, I think I moved my models less than 10' all day in total...
112788
Post by: temoinlanuit
Quick newbie question - does our HQ choice seem expensive?
Cawl is too expensive for the small getting started sizes I'm at, and our one HQ choice doesn't seem to have as big an impact on the game as others.
Would be happy to hear if I'm way off-base here
112278
Post by: ross-128
The Dominus seems to be torn between being a pretty decent beatstick and a pretty good buff bubble. His main problem is he can't do both at the same time: he's a melee beatstick that buffs range.
I guess he can plink at stuff with what is basically a multilaser while he's being a buff bubble though, and then if the stuff he's buffing dies he can go ape on whatever killed them for a glorious last stand.
Him being a mandatory HQ at least means you'll have no shortage of repair bubbles for your dunecrawlers.
112586
Post by: gally912
Any thoughts against a daemon horde, fellow priests of the omnissiah? The normal dakkastelen is in order, but much less efficient. Any tips or strats?
Not planning to tailor, of course, just looking for ideas.
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Post by: rvd1ofakind
Errr why is it less efficient? >_>
Just do the core list without any changes. Daemons are really bad
112586
Post by: gally912
The AP on them doesn't do a whole lot. Plaguebearers harder to hit, their big stuff is t7+, etc.
I guess I just play like I did against orks. Vanguard and tazer weapons do a little more work, I suppose.
Now I'm wondering, do we have a playstyle beyond...
Vanguard screen gunline of onagers and kastelens, infiltrator deepstrike, with knight support flavored to taste?
105165
Post by: rvd1ofakind
gally912 wrote:The AP on them doesn't do a whole lot. Plaguebearers harder to hit, their big stuff is t7+, etc.
I guess I just play like I did against orks. Vanguard and tazer weapons do a little more work, I suppose.
Now I'm wondering, do we have a playstyle beyond...
Vanguard screen gunline of onagers and kastelens, infiltrator deepstrike, with knight support flavored to taste?
Eh, they still put out a lot of shots with good str. I think that's still amazing. But yeah, tazer infiltrators are insane vs no armour hordes. 5 of mine killed 30 gaunts
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Post by: bortass
Got my first game of 8th, and first game of 40k in over 3 years, played yesterday. We did power level 78, it turned out to be a natural number for both armies. I was hamstrung by the lack of built models, I only have 1 TPD based for a HQ and had to use a patrol detachment. I played against a BL army and won thanks to a lucky roll right before the game ended.
The main highlights are what others have seen.
Dakkabots, unit of 4, melted what they shot at. I took out two assault marine squads, one per turn and they won me the game. 72 shots at a full strength razorback that had popped smoke. 14 wounds, he failed 10 saves, and failed a reroll, so dead razor back. It blew up and his only two units in range of his objective had been hiding behind it. I get lucky and roll a 5 and 6 to kill the three assault marines and 3 wnd priest. That swung the game from a 4-4 tie to 4 - 1 win for me.
My unit of 10 fulgrites managed a charge on a combat squad of tac marines. 2 dies to overwatch and my vohlgeist field charge effect did nothing. In combat I got two 6's to wound and did 5 mortal wounds wiping them with another 4 normal wounds to spare. Once they got that 3+ save they just tarpitted his units. They killed 10 tac marines and 4 assault marines before finally dying.
I think my opponent has learned the power of those two units.
My other stuff didn't do much and I forgot to place my infiltrators and and lost the unit. Too bad, they would have pressured my opponent more.
Now if only we'd get some cheap HQ options...
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Post by: Arlen
Played 8th today for the first time,
loved it.
I like to play infantry heavy Admech and boy did they deliver.
Rangers are still pretty good objective sitters and the snipers are fantastic, they easily took out small characters each turn. They made their points back quite fast.
Vanguard are amazing, totally worth taking. Move + advance and still being able to shoot that lovely assault 3 weapon is fantastic. It makes them fast and a threat.
Infiltrators their point decrease makes them a good investment, but I really did like their special rules from 7th and think they should have a lil' bit more depth. Taser variant is really good for huge amount of attacks and can take on big units, while the power sword variant is great at killing marines.
Ruststalkers I think they lost the most with the new edition change, sure their move + advance makes them decent at running towards the enemy, but having no AP value on their weapons is a shame. The lose of their grenades is also a shame. I do love the mortal wounds bit, but everything these guys do, Infiltrators can do better.
Corpuscarii They are not bad and fall in the same category as Taser Infiltrators. But with only one wound they sure are fragile. Movement is not such a big problem with them having assault weapons as you can move + advance while still shooting (at -1 bs) and their best target is large blobs of enemy units, as their sheer possible amount of shots is incredible.
Fulgrite Based on their weapon options these really are better then Ruststalkers, but a bit slower. This unit suffers the most of the Admech not having any transports. But should you get them in close combat then they will most surely win it, because those D3 mortal wounds are delicious.
Bonus
Dragoons No longer being able to tie up units of marines without losing some health in return really hurts them as they are quite fragile in prolonged combats. Best use for them is fighting vehicles that are terrible in close combat and eating up lone support characters by running up and close to them, while ignoring larger groups of enemies.
44304
Post by: str00dles1
rvd1ofakind wrote:str00dles1 wrote:Depends on what cover rules you play with. If you do basic cover rules, if a unit is fully within a terrain feature, it has +1 to is armor save (never invulns)
If you used the advanced rules that calls out specific terrain, vehicles ( PG 249 I believe) only get cover is 50% of them are obscured by the terrain feature. Infantry always have to be fully inside it.
It is odd one guy outside of cover means the whole squad is out for a realism standpoint, but it makes streamlining rules easy.
But you can allocate 1 of the wounds to the guy and then benefit from cover on the others So no big.
Not correct. It states that if a single model is not in the area cover then the entire unit does not have cover.
You allocate, then its all rolled at once for each guy. So even if the 1 guy dies the unit was not in cover during the saving throws. After its done then yes they would be
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Post by: gally912
The new faq seems to contradict you st00dles1.
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Post by: str00dles1
No, because you allocate the wounds, then you make all the saves. This all happens at once.
How what the FAQ states is how the game normally flows. You do each shooting attack separate. And example is a Knight Titan shooting its battle cannon and gatling cannon at a single squad. Shooter picks and resolved 1 weapon fully, then the next. so between removing dead models outside of cover for the one attack, the squad can now gain cover for the next of the attacks at it.
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Post by: Suzuteo
gally912 wrote:Any thoughts against a daemon horde, fellow priests of the omnissiah? The normal dakkastelen is in order, but much less efficient. Any tips or strats?
Not planning to tailor, of course, just looking for ideas.
Dragoons and Infiltrators do really well against units with poor armor.
 Arlen wrote:Dragoons No longer being able to tie up units of marines without losing some health in return really hurts them as they are quite fragile in prolonged combats. Best use for them is fighting vehicles that are terrible in close combat and eating up lone support characters by running up and close to them, while ignoring larger groups of enemies.
It is so funny seeing tanks trapped against walls. But yeah, charging large units is suicidal with pretty much any unit.
105165
Post by: rvd1ofakind
str00dles1 wrote:
No, because you allocate the wounds, then you make all the saves. This all happens at once.
How what the FAQ states is how the game normally flows. You do each shooting attack separate. And example is a Knight Titan shooting its battle cannon and gatling cannon at a single squad. Shooter picks and resolved 1 weapon fully, then the next. so between removing dead models outside of cover for the one attack, the squad can now gain cover for the next of the attacks at it.
Oh reaaaaaally?
I never say things without proof.
https://twitter.com/rvd1ofakind/status/871305345636999168
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Post by: Verviedi
Kudos for you for documentation. And good to know...
44304
Post by: str00dles1
rvd1ofakind wrote:str00dles1 wrote:
No, because you allocate the wounds, then you make all the saves. This all happens at once.
How what the FAQ states is how the game normally flows. You do each shooting attack separate. And example is a Knight Titan shooting its battle cannon and gatling cannon at a single squad. Shooter picks and resolved 1 weapon fully, then the next. so between removing dead models outside of cover for the one attack, the squad can now gain cover for the next of the attacks at it.
Oh reaaaaaally?
I never say things without proof.
https://twitter.com/rvd1ofakind/status/871305345636999168
Twitter is not any proof. Just how people's questions on Facebook and the answers they give mean nothing in any sort of tourney.
105165
Post by: rvd1ofakind
str00dles1 wrote: rvd1ofakind wrote:str00dles1 wrote:
No, because you allocate the wounds, then you make all the saves. This all happens at once.
How what the FAQ states is how the game normally flows. You do each shooting attack separate. And example is a Knight Titan shooting its battle cannon and gatling cannon at a single squad. Shooter picks and resolved 1 weapon fully, then the next. so between removing dead models outside of cover for the one attack, the squad can now gain cover for the next of the attacks at it.
Oh reaaaaaally?
I never say things without proof.
https://twitter.com/rvd1ofakind/status/871305345636999168
Twitter is not any proof. Just how people's questions on Facebook and the answers they give mean nothing in any sort of tourney.
Yes, a tweet from the main game dev isn't proof enough...
102074
Post by: Oldmike
So to you all what's better dune crawlers or robots I have one of each and trying to deside what for slot number 3
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Post by: Pedroig
Both... Why restrict to 3 slots, Spearhead is for AdMech!
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Post by: str00dles1
Oldmike wrote:So to you all what's better dune crawlers or robots I have one of each and trying to deside what for slot number 3
Yea you want to do spear head usually.
Spear Head and Outrider for the chickenwalkers since they are good and cheap playing at 2k points. Then third detachment can be a knight or go more admech and buy single HQ for Greyfax for physic phase protection.
Personally I have 6 robots and 4 spider tanks
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Filthy.
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Post by: Verviedi
I really do need to grab some Kastellans, but I really, really dislike the models. I know there was a 3D printed conversion kit to make their heads into Castellax-like pods, do any of you know where to find that?
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Verviedi wrote:I really do need to grab some Kastellans, but I really, really dislike the models. I know there was a 3D printed conversion kit to make their heads into Castellax-like pods, do any of you know where to find that?
Ask and ye shall receive!
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Post by: Verviedi
Excellent. Thank you! Now I just need to do heavy conversion work, and buy robots when I can afford them!
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Post by: Castellan Alaric
So is everyone disliking the plasma culverin's on kataphrons? I have had GREAT results with it versus vehicles in particular. I have a dominus nearby (I don't have Cawl yet...) for reroll 1's and overcharge every turn. I have killed a full health chimera in a turn with 3 kataphrons. The random shot number is a pain, for sure, but I struggle to stick wounds on ANYTHING with my grav cannons. Maybe it's because more vehicles are coming out and the s5 grav just won't wound as much? I am much more pro-plasma this edition, that s8 from overcharging is great. I also stuck like 11 wounds on a lord of skulls in 1 round of shooting between 5 kataphrons my last game out. I did finally end up losing some kataphrons to the plasma overheat, but that's because my dominus got punked by a knight, so I didn't have rerolls. If you have the reroll 1's I think you can make plasma work for sure.
I haven't had much luck with the transonic arquebus, though I love the idea and want to make it work. I wish I had more plasma calivers for my vanguard I have built (I started with 2 start collecting boxes so I only got 2 of each special). I'll have to get either another start collecting box (another dunecrawler too ) or just get some more vanguard/ranger models in their own kit so I can keep up the msu + loads of special weapons. Are cc weapons on the sergeants completely not worth it? I tried a power sword and couldn't stick wounds with s3 but the arc maul making you s5 helped a bunch!
Thanks for listening.
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Post by: str00dles1
 Castellan Alaric wrote:So is everyone disliking the plasma culverin's on kataphrons? I have had GREAT results with it versus vehicles in particular. I have a dominus nearby (I don't have Cawl yet...) for reroll 1's and overcharge every turn. I have killed a full health chimera in a turn with 3 kataphrons. The random shot number is a pain, for sure, but I struggle to stick wounds on ANYTHING with my grav cannons. Maybe it's because more vehicles are coming out and the s5 grav just won't wound as much? I am much more pro-plasma this edition, that s8 from overcharging is great. I also stuck like 11 wounds on a lord of skulls in 1 round of shooting between 5 kataphrons my last game out. I did finally end up losing some kataphrons to the plasma overheat, but that's because my dominus got punked by a knight, so I didn't have rerolls. If you have the reroll 1's I think you can make plasma work for sure.
I haven't had much luck with the transonic arquebus, though I love the idea and want to make it work. I wish I had more plasma calivers for my vanguard I have built (I started with 2 start collecting boxes so I only got 2 of each special). I'll have to get either another start collecting box (another dunecrawler too ) or just get some more vanguard/ranger models in their own kit so I can keep up the msu + loads of special weapons. Are cc weapons on the sergeants completely not worth it? I tried a power sword and couldn't stick wounds with s3 but the arc maul making you s5 helped a bunch!
Thanks for listening.
Over all, the general consensus is the Kataphons are poop. I own 6, so I wish they were good but I personally don't like them. They don't fit in a role really. Robots are for killing all but the most heavy armored and wounded models, then the Icarus/Laser Spider Tank can take on that target easily. They cost way way to much to be useable. I can spend 200 on 4 groups of troops to bubble wrap my forces. I can spend 220 on 3 kataphons that don't do as well as robots or the spider tanks.
Glad they work, but I wont use them unless they get a lot cheaper.
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Post by: thatssoeffingcool
Just something to point out dont count out servitors. They are actually an amazing addition. Its 8 points for 4 of them and we can use them as infiltrate block. just making a big oval of no infiltrators. or just stick them on an objective and not feel bad not. moving a rangers unit. it gives you another unit against your go first count but just something to consider
87289
Post by: axisofentropy
 thatssoeffingcool wrote:Just something to point out dont count out servitors. They are actually an amazing addition. Its 8 points for 4 of them and we can use them as infiltrate block. just making a big oval of no infiltrators. or just stick them on an objective and not feel bad not. moving a rangers unit. it gives you another unit against your go first count but just something to consider
servitors would be useful if they could have no wargear. but they must take expensive servo-arms. I'd rather have Vanguard.
106426
Post by: Aaranis
thatssoeffingcool wrote:Just something to point out dont count out servitors. They are actually an amazing addition. Its 8 points for 4 of them and we can use them as infiltrate block. just making a big oval of no infiltrators. or just stick them on an objective and not feel bad not. moving a rangers unit. it gives you another unit against your go first count but just something to consider
2 points for the Servitor... 12 points for the weapon... You have yourself a unit of 4 Servitors with only Servo-arms for 56 points, and you have to admit they're pretty useless without any heavy weapons attached.
Plus I personally think their models are the ugliest ever and I'll never have that in my army ever.
Concerning Fulgurites I'll have to try them someday, they look nice enough after reading some of your batreps. When we'll get a transport I'll sure look at them again, If i switch their heads they'll be less ugly Automatically Appended Next Post: Verviedi wrote:I really do need to grab some Kastellans, but I really, really dislike the models. I know there was a 3D printed conversion kit to make their heads into Castellax-like pods, do any of you know where to find that?
Their heads are the cutest, how dare you ?
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Post by: ross-128
Yeah, the cost of the servo-arm is pretty unfortunate, makes me wish you could put HBs on all four servitors instead of just two of them to actually make them useful. It's also kind of odd, since I don't think there is any unit that actually has a servo arm as an upgrade option. It's always a default item that you can sometimes replace. I guess they specifically wanted a HB servitor to be cheaper than a servo-arm servitor, so they made the servo arm more expensive than the HB.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
There is nothing as satisfying as a Kastellan reflecting a Melta or Lascannon shot
106426
Post by: Aaranis
In 7th, people that shot at my Kastelan Robots with lascannons ALWAYS had it returned to them, it was like black magic. Don't remember a single lascannon wounding it.
107626
Post by: Tsol
str00dles1 wrote: rvd1ofakind wrote:str00dles1 wrote:
No, because you allocate the wounds, then you make all the saves. This all happens at once.
How what the FAQ states is how the game normally flows. You do each shooting attack separate. And example is a Knight Titan shooting its battle cannon and gatling cannon at a single squad. Shooter picks and resolved 1 weapon fully, then the next. so between removing dead models outside of cover for the one attack, the squad can now gain cover for the next of the attacks at it.
Oh reaaaaaally?
I never say things without proof.
https://twitter.com/rvd1ofakind/status/871305345636999168
Twitter is not any proof. Just how people's questions on Facebook and the answers they give mean nothing in any sort of tourney.
Just a heads up; first day FAQ explicitly says you can do this. It's on the GW page right next to the PDF of the Core rules. You can indeed do it. Both the Devs have said so and its official errata/ FAQ. Automatically Appended Next Post: Verviedi wrote:I really do need to grab some Kastellans, but I really, really dislike the models. I know there was a 3D printed conversion kit to make their heads into Castellax-like pods, do any of you know where to find that?
!!!
I feel like I am the only one who loves the robots look. Admittedly I am a huge old sci-fi buff/nerd and the fact they look like 1950s robots made me buy 2 boxes of them when they first launched. Automatically Appended Next Post: str00dles1 wrote: Castellan Alaric wrote:So is everyone disliking the plasma culverin's on kataphrons? I have had GREAT results with it versus vehicles in particular. I have a dominus nearby (I don't have Cawl yet...) for reroll 1's and overcharge every turn. I have killed a full health chimera in a turn with 3 kataphrons. The random shot number is a pain, for sure, but I struggle to stick wounds on ANYTHING with my grav cannons. Maybe it's because more vehicles are coming out and the s5 grav just won't wound as much? I am much more pro-plasma this edition, that s8 from overcharging is great. I also stuck like 11 wounds on a lord of skulls in 1 round of shooting between 5 kataphrons my last game out. I did finally end up losing some kataphrons to the plasma overheat, but that's because my dominus got punked by a knight, so I didn't have rerolls. If you have the reroll 1's I think you can make plasma work for sure.
I haven't had much luck with the transonic arquebus, though I love the idea and want to make it work. I wish I had more plasma calivers for my vanguard I have built (I started with 2 start collecting boxes so I only got 2 of each special). I'll have to get either another start collecting box (another dunecrawler too ) or just get some more vanguard/ranger models in their own kit so I can keep up the msu + loads of special weapons. Are cc weapons on the sergeants completely not worth it? I tried a power sword and couldn't stick wounds with s3 but the arc maul making you s5 helped a bunch!
Thanks for listening.
Over all, the general consensus is the Kataphons are poop. I own 6, so I wish they were good but I personally don't like them. They don't fit in a role really. Robots are for killing all but the most heavy armored and wounded models, then the Icarus/Laser Spider Tank can take on that target easily. They cost way way to much to be useable. I can spend 200 on 4 groups of troops to bubble wrap my forces. I can spend 220 on 3 kataphons that don't do as well as robots or the spider tanks.
Glad they work, but I wont use them unless they get a lot cheaper.
I don't think they are poop but your criticism is not unfounded. Breaches/destroyers (from my very limited experience in 8th [only 6 games with Admech thus far]) are very powerful when combined with Cawl. Rerolls effectively give you extreme damage output and accuracy. However at a huge point investment. 250 for cawl and 440 for two squads of destroyers. For an obscene cost of almost half your army list you get 3 units which are super easy to kill but can commit a lot of firepower. You might just be better off taking an Imperial knight and using the left over change to buy another troop choice fully kitted out. I still haven't made up my mind on how they play cause I need more play testing with them, but I fully agree that their current price is simply too expensive. And unless you take Cawl to babysit them, I would say don't even bother taking them.
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Post by: thatssoeffingcool
my fault it looked like how it read was servitor armed with servo arm for 2 points. but i just have the word document posted earlier
1
111162
Post by: Suzuteo
str00dles1 wrote: rvd1ofakind wrote:str00dles1 wrote:
No, because you allocate the wounds, then you make all the saves. This all happens at once.
How what the FAQ states is how the game normally flows. You do each shooting attack separate. And example is a Knight Titan shooting its battle cannon and gatling cannon at a single squad. Shooter picks and resolved 1 weapon fully, then the next. so between removing dead models outside of cover for the one attack, the squad can now gain cover for the next of the attacks at it.
Oh reaaaaaally?
I never say things without proof.
https://twitter.com/rvd1ofakind/status/871305345636999168
Twitter is not any proof. Just how people's questions on Facebook and the answers they give mean nothing in any sort of tourney.
New FAQ contradicts this:
https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary-ENG.pdf
"Q: When determining whether a model benefits from cover, does the model’s entire unit need to be fully on or within terrain, or just the model making a particular saving throw?
A: All of the models in a unit need to be at least partially on or within terrain if any of the models are to receive the +1 bonus to their saving throw.
Note, however, that it is possible for a unit to gain the benefit of cover as it suffers casualties during the Shooting phase by removing those models that are not on, or within terrain. As soon as the last model that was not on or within terrain is slain, the rest of the unit immediately starts to receive the benefit of cover."
Keep in mind that you don't speed roll saves, even though convention allows for it to save time. This is because models in a unit do not necessarily possess the same save. I believe the tweet reaffirms this.
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Post by: Arachnofiend
The Wargame Exclusive alternate heads are a great choice to make the Kastellans less Baymaxy, too.
111162
Post by: Suzuteo
Some people convert a regular Skitarii or Servitor head for use in the Kastelan. It's mildly terrifying to see a tiny head inside such a massive body.
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Post by: rvd1ofakind
thatssoeffingcool wrote:my fault it looked like how it read was servitor armed with servo arm for 2 points. but i just have the word document posted earlier
I'm not sure how you're reading that this way
It's 2 per model + 12 per servo-arm which are pre-equiped. So 2*4+2*12=56
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Suzuteo wrote:str00dles1 wrote: rvd1ofakind wrote:str00dles1 wrote:
No, because you allocate the wounds, then you make all the saves. This all happens at once.
How what the FAQ states is how the game normally flows. You do each shooting attack separate. And example is a Knight Titan shooting its battle cannon and gatling cannon at a single squad. Shooter picks and resolved 1 weapon fully, then the next. so between removing dead models outside of cover for the one attack, the squad can now gain cover for the next of the attacks at it.
Oh reaaaaaally?
I never say things without proof.
https://twitter.com/rvd1ofakind/status/871305345636999168
Twitter is not any proof. Just how people's questions on Facebook and the answers they give mean nothing in any sort of tourney.
New FAQ contradicts this:
https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary-ENG.pdf
"Q: When determining whether a model benefits from cover, does the model’s entire unit need to be fully on or within terrain, or just the model making a particular saving throw?
A: All of the models in a unit need to be at least partially on or within terrain if any of the models are to receive the +1 bonus to their saving throw.
Note, however, that it is possible for a unit to gain the benefit of cover as it suffers casualties during the Shooting phase by removing those models that are not on, or within terrain. As soon as the last model that was not on or within terrain is slain, the rest of the unit immediately starts to receive the benefit of cover."
Keep in mind that you don't speed roll saves, even though convention allows for it to save time. This is because models in a unit do not necessarily possess the same save. I believe the tweet reaffirms this.
He'll likely skip over this response just like all the twitter responses and complain it's not official because there are no "gamesworkshop stamps".
For him to take it as official it'd have to be signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, queried, lost, found, subjected to public enquiry, lost again, and finally buried in soft peat for three months and recycled as firelighters.
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Post by: Jackal444
I just had a thought, and stop me if I'm terribly wrong. The Secutarii rules haven't been updated for 8th and are also not in any of the FW indexes as far as I can tell. So, this means 1 of 2 things:
1. The boring answer is there'll be a pdf of the rules up on the site soon enough.
2. The exciting answer is FoC is much closer than I thought.
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Post by: Suzuteo
Jackal444 wrote:I just had a thought, and stop me if I'm terribly wrong. The Secutarii rules haven't been updated for 8th and are also not in any of the FW indexes as far as I can tell. So, this means 1 of 2 things:
1. The boring answer is there'll be a pdf of the rules up on the site soon enough.
2. The exciting answer is FoC is much closer than I thought.
They promised everything would be useable on launch. Now it's by end of June.
Don't hold your breath?
(That being said, I am super excited for Secutarii. We NEED cheaper Elites.)
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Post by: rvd1ofakind
Suzuteo wrote:Jackal444 wrote:I just had a thought, and stop me if I'm terribly wrong. The Secutarii rules haven't been updated for 8th and are also not in any of the FW indexes as far as I can tell. So, this means 1 of 2 things:
1. The boring answer is there'll be a pdf of the rules up on the site soon enough.
2. The exciting answer is FoC is much closer than I thought.
They promised everything would be useable on launch. Now it's by end of June.
Don't hold your breath?
(That being said, I am super excited for Secutarii. We NEED cheaper Elites.)
Do we?
Our elites are now 52 to 130 pts...
Are securati gonna be 20 pts per unit?
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Post by: Iago40k
Quick questions since someone asked me why I shoot all my Icarus Guns into one target. Since it is a single Weapon system I assumed it has to target one enemy unit with all its weapons. So, am I wrong with that assumption?
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Post by: Aaranis
Iago40k wrote:Quick questions since someone asked me why I shoot all my Icarus Guns into one target. Since it is a single Weapon system I assumed it has to target one enemy unit with all its weapons. So, am I wrong with that assumption?
It's not really clear, in the Shooting rules it's said "if a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them a the same target, or it can shoot each at a specific unit". Now the Icarus Array says "When attacking with this weapon, you can fire all three profiles below".
To me it's a single weapon, but with different profiles like the Eradication Ray does for exemple, so I'd say until it's FAQed we should target one unit with the three profiles.
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Post by: str00dles1
Aaranis wrote:Iago40k wrote:Quick questions since someone asked me why I shoot all my Icarus Guns into one target. Since it is a single Weapon system I assumed it has to target one enemy unit with all its weapons. So, am I wrong with that assumption?
It's not really clear, in the Shooting rules it's said "if a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them a the same target, or it can shoot each at a specific unit". Now the Icarus Array says "When attacking with this weapon, you can fire all three profiles below".
To me it's a single weapon, but with different profiles like the Eradication Ray does for exemple, so I'd say until it's FAQed we should target one unit with the three profiles.
'
That's how ive been playing it so far, our group agrees its still a single weapon with different shots so must be same unit targeted.
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Post by: Pedroig
Agree, same way we are playing it, one weapon, tons of shots...
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Those are what I have on my Robots.
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Post by: Silentz
Yeah, in my one game of 8th against Dark Eldar the guy shot me with 3 dark lances, putting 0 wounds on my robots and 4 on his Raider/Ravager/Whatever it was.
He never shot at them again!
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Suzuteo wrote:Jackal444 wrote:I just had a thought, and stop me if I'm terribly wrong. The Secutarii rules haven't been updated for 8th and are also not in any of the FW indexes as far as I can tell. So, this means 1 of 2 things:
1. The boring answer is there'll be a pdf of the rules up on the site soon enough.
2. The exciting answer is FoC is much closer than I thought.
They promised everything would be useable on launch. Now it's by end of June.
Don't hold your breath?
(That being said, I am super excited for Secutarii. We NEED cheaper Elites.)
Well 90% of models have rules? The only one that dont have 40k rules (now or by the end of this week) are the Mechanicum ones. So hopefully Cyraxis is soon...
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Post by: Suzuteo
rvd1ofakind wrote:
Do we?
Our elites are now 52 to 130 pts...
Are securati gonna be 20 pts per unit?
Yes. We currently have no good, cheap Elite option for a Brigade (3x Datasmith or 3x Servitor sounds awful). If Vanguard are any reliable indicator, they will be 12 per model, so 60 points for a unit of 5 combi-weapon troops. I wonder how the shields and shroud-shot will work though.
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Post by: Jackal444
Suzuteo wrote: rvd1ofakind wrote:
Do we?
Our elites are now 52 to 130 pts...
Are securati gonna be 20 pts per unit?
Yes. We currently have no good, cheap Elite option for a Brigade (3x Datasmith or 3x Servitor sounds awful). If Vanguard are any reliable indicator, they will be 12 per model, so 60 points for a unit of 5 combi-weapon troops. I wonder how the shields and shroud-shot will work though.
I imagine something like this:
Shields: 5+ invuln.
Shroud-shot: Give up shooting attack to give 1 Adeptus Mechanicus unit the benefit of cover.
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Post by: rvd1ofakind
Eh, I don't really have a problem filling the brigade req:
Smith (a must)
Infiltrators (a must)
Priests (counter-charge)
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Post by: str00dles1
Yea, a min squad of priests is dirt cheap, 70 and 80 pts.
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Post by: Oldmike
I trying to decide is it better to have a 5 man unit of vanguard or a missile pod?
What do you guys think is more useful already have 2 rangers 2 robot units and a crab (and a loaded storm raven with a dread and jump troops to deal with charging units)
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Post by: gally912
So a couple rules questions came up today.
Does the cognis weapon rule stack with the heavy weapon penalty? (Making them hit on 6's, essentially)
The TPD and Cawl re-roll rules only apply in shooting phase, and not during overwatch, correct? (Unlike a good portion of other re-roll rules from other factions)
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Post by: Suzuteo
rvd1ofakind wrote:Eh, I don't really have a problem filling the brigade req:
Smith (a must)
Infiltrators (a must)
Priests (counter-charge)
str00dles1 wrote:Yea, a min squad of priests is dirt cheap, 70 and 80 pts.
I would much rather have the combiweapons. And if the shields provide an aura, I would definitely go for it.
gally912 wrote:So a couple rules questions came up today.
Does the cognis weapon rule stack with the heavy weapon penalty? (Making them hit on 6's, essentially)
The TPD and Cawl re-roll rules only apply in shooting phase, and not during overwatch, correct? (Unlike a good portion of other re-roll rules from other factions)
I believe so. You move, you get -1. You advance, you get -2. You also don't get to reroll hits that are successful before modifiers.
Yes. And I think Overwatch is just roll for 6, no modifiers.
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Post by: Tsol
Suzuteo wrote:rvd1ofakind wrote:Eh, I don't really have a problem filling the brigade req:
Smith (a must)
Infiltrators (a must)
Priests (counter-charge)
str00dles1 wrote:Yea, a min squad of priests is dirt cheap, 70 and 80 pts.
I would much rather have the combiweapons. And if the shields provide an aura, I would definitely go for it.
gally912 wrote:So a couple rules questions came up today.
Does the cognis weapon rule stack with the heavy weapon penalty? (Making them hit on 6's, essentially)
The TPD and Cawl re-roll rules only apply in shooting phase, and not during overwatch, correct? (Unlike a good portion of other re-roll rules from other factions)
I believe so. You move, you get -1. You advance, you get -2. You also don't get to reroll hits that are successful before modifiers.
Don't have my index on hand, but doesn't the Crab have a special rule that it does not suffer the heavy weapon penalty? You should only suffer a -1 pen for advancing. But I may be wrong, if someone could check and reply (unless I get home and do it first).
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Post by: gally912
Tsol wrote:
Don't have my index on hand, but doesn't the Crab have a special rule that it does not suffer the heavy weapon penalty? You should only suffer a -1 pen for advancing. But I may be wrong, if someone could check and reply (unless I get home and do it first).
Cognis is firing at -2 if advance. You're absolutely right, the Onager doesn't suffer the -1 heavy penalty for his Stubber.
In this case, I'm referring to the utility of Cognis weapons on the Ironstrider, who does still suffer that for his autocannon/lascannon.
Can't really see myself ever using it in this way except as throw away shots after *needing* to advance I suppose. Needing 6's just don't cut it.
Bummer about overwatch. I'm hoping there is some sort of errata on what "normal shooting attack" construes.
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Post by: thatssoeffingcool
So what does a competitive tournament Admech list look like?
Also what might an anti nids or orks list look like?
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Post by: Iago40k
thatssoeffingcool wrote:So what does a competitive tournament Admech list look like?
Also what might an anti nids or orks list look like?
I played Nids a couple of times now, always with swarmlord, flying melee tyrants, genestealers etc etc so basically first turn charge all the way.
My list looked like this (1850 pts):
3 x 5 Vanguard
1 x 5 Ranger 2 Arquebusses
1 x 5 Infiltrators (Flechette/Taser)
1 x 3 Dakkastelans
1 x 1 Datasmith
1 Cawl
1 TPD
1 Icarus Onager
1 Neutronager
1 Knight Errant (Thermal, Chaisword, Stubber)
worked like a charm. 3 units of vanguards are the minimum for stopping your artillery getting first turn charged ( you need at least partial double wrap cause smit eis a thing). The Knight is an incredible distraction for any army. I am thinking of just giving him gauntlet and chainsword and just running him upfield (loosing some firepower which would be very helpful though). Soaking up any damage that otherwise would hit your Dakkastelan or Onagers is important.
Haven't played Orks yet.
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Post by: Kandela
Could I ask if there is any reason that outright defenestrates (as in throws out of window) Eradication Beamer? It looks like a decent gun now albeit a little bit random.
Also could anyone fill me in on consensus about Heavy Grav Cannon vs Plasma Culverin?
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Post by: U02dah4
As a skitarii player I am disappointed by the loss of the three things that made skitarii interesting (asside from aesthetics). Doctrinal imperitives, army wide scout and no HQ.
Having read this thread
Admech are no longer a viable army in there own right.
Army wise the HQ tax is crippling, if only enginseer was an HQ. Dunecrawlers are ace but take 3 with a dominous and any efficiency gained from the crawlers is lost to the 100 unnecessary points on a dominous use another faction HQ and you get the second problem-Canticles are dependent on single faction detachment.
The HQ problem could have been solved if you could have named your forgworld blood angels but they faqed that.
So what does that leave for Admech-allies
1) spearhead dominous 6 dunecrawlers with neutron laser maybe 1 with icarus. Great against a tank heavy meta and you get canticles you deploy in a star and just about get value from the dominous
2) Screw the Canticles and just add select Admech units to other imperium armies (note you then have to justify the units vs all other imperium armies)
Hq Never worth it to expensive
Troops ranger 300pt for 6 arquebuses you need at least this many to reliably character snipe
Vanguard less mobile than scion/scouts less tanky than conscripts but they are fairly shooty and the -1t synergises with CC if you can get them there (alternatively stick 10 in a bastion to defend your backline)
Kataphrons 30-40pts too expensive.
Elite Enginseer viable in AM
Other than never worth it (most roles can be done by another imperium faction better)
Fa never worth it (Sentinals are cheaper and scout compared to ballistarii) While if I want a mobile CC unit assault marines/death company with lemartes can be charging turn 1.
Heavy support
Dunecrawler auto take
Kastellan no- their role can be accomplished by other factions and they cost too much.
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Post by: str00dles1
gally912 wrote:So a couple rules questions came up today.
Does the cognis weapon rule stack with the heavy weapon penalty? (Making them hit on 6's, essentially)
The TPD and Cawl re-roll rules only apply in shooting phase, and not during overwatch, correct? (Unlike a good portion of other re-roll rules from other factions)
Yes, it makes it 6's
Cawls ability says it only works in shooting phase, not overwatch
Kandela wrote:Could I ask if there is any reason that outright defenestrates (as in throws out of window) Eradication Beamer? It looks like a decent gun now albeit a little bit random.
Also could anyone fill me in on consensus about Heavy Grav Cannon vs Plasma Culverin?
Neither honestly. but if absoutly forced, plasma can do better.
U02dah4 wrote:As a skitarii player I am disappointed by the loss of the three things that made skitarii interesting (asside from aesthetics). Doctrinal imperitives, army wide scout and no HQ.
Having read this thread
Admech are no longer a viable army in there own right.
Army wise the HQ tax is crippling, if only enginseer was an HQ. Dunecrawlers are ace but take 3 with a dominous and any efficiency gained from the crawlers is lost to the 100 unnecessary points on a dominous use another faction HQ and you get the second problem-Canticles are dependent on single faction detachment.
The HQ problem could have been solved if you could have named your forgworld blood angels but they faqed that.
So what does that leave for Admech-allies
1) spearhead dominous 6 dunecrawlers with neutron laser maybe 1 with icarus. Great against a tank heavy meta and you get canticles you deploy in a star and just about get value from the dominous
2) Screw the Canticles and just add select Admech units to other imperium armies (note you then have to justify the units vs all other imperium armies)
Hq Never worth it to expensive
Troops ranger 300pt for 6 arquebuses you need at least this many to reliably character snipe
Vanguard less mobile than scion/scouts less tanky than conscripts but they are fairly shooty and the -1t synergises with CC if you can get them there (alternatively stick 10 in a bastion to defend your backline)
Kataphrons 30-40pts too expensive.
Elite Enginseer viable in AM
Other than never worth it (most roles can be done by another imperium faction better)
Fa never worth it (Sentinals are cheaper and scout compared to ballistarii) While if I want a mobile CC unit assault marines/death company with lemartes can be charging turn 1.
Heavy support
Dunecrawler auto take
Kastellan no- their role can be accomplished by other factions and they cost too much.
I think your way off here.
Ive hard 6 games so far and Admech is fine by themselves. The biggest issue is vs mass spell force like nids. Have you played games with them yet? Most of what you said is pretty much the opposite of what everyones said here...
Once the Forgeworld book comes out and brings 30k to 40k, we should have a cheap HQ to take with Cawl. Not that TPD is bad as hes a slightly weaker version, but still gives rerolls and repairs.
The Canticles are not as bad as you say. Getting your whole army turn 1 cover since good chance you are going second is really good.
You can Take an Aux of Greyfax for 85 points to fight the psyker issue.
I would never take 6 arquebuses as it way to many points for something you don't need to do.
FA Lascannon chicken is really cheap and great anti tank to fill points.
Kastellan is an auto include.
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Post by: U02dah4
Most of my local players haven't had time to re-optimise from 7th yet. I don't think the chicken is bad I just prefer crawlers for the AV and think that once 8th gets into full swing your not going to see many vehicles because there massively overpriced and inefficient points wise.
The majority of competitive player I've talked to in my area is looking at some variation on massed infantry although for some of them that's a big change and it's going to take months to get the models together.
I think canticles are nice I just don't think there worth a 25% of your army HQ tax. Particularly if that tax doesn't buff repair your allies
I'm not saying I would take 6 arquebusses but that's the mathhammer to have a reasonable expectancy of sniping a character per turn (which I acknowledge as a valid tactical option but I'm not sure how strong without playtesting and more list building meta data)
Also I should say in my area every event has no forge world stamped on it so the forge world book will change nothing. This may not be the case elsewhere
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Post by: gally912
I end up using my TPD to push forward with units to secure the middle of the board... Vanguard, Electro-priests, etc... granting his re-roll bubble.
That way Cawl can keep his fat behind where it needs to be, giving re-rolls to kastellens and onagers in the backfield, lol.
In that sense, he has not been un-useful. He has solo'd guard squads and an ork bigmek in combat. Macrostubber actually came in quite useful here. Priceless face on the opponent when he heals the 2 wounds he managed to get on him.
If we get the Enginseer as an HQ at some point, I will be not quite so eager to jump ship. In a heavy-support, artillery list I think he'd be useful. If I want to push towards anything and leave my Cawl bubble, the TPD definitely makes a case for me.
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Post by: Pedroig
@U02dah4Made
I don't play with Cawl, have had one defeat.
2 Arquebus (correct plural) are good enough to take out minor characters in a single turn if TDP is nearby or you have reroll canticle going.
Robots with Datasmith are expensive, but lots of dakka and the refelct ability has the blessings of Omnissiah and procs way more than it should...
Vanguard are the best bang for your buck screening units in the entire Imperium.
Spearhead is the way to go, your canticles give you CP Lite abilities already. I have used all my CP once if I had a Battalion.
I've played with pure AdMech, AdMech + Knight(s), AdMech + Iron Hands. Have gone against Nids, AM Armour, SM, and Tau, Split the matches between the Tau, won the rest, did not play same list each time, did not tailor the lists to the opponents, same list that beat Nids, beat the Armour for example.
BTW, why do folks keep wanting to keep Cawl back, he is a Melee machine, there is nothing you can't do reroll-wise in the Shooting phase with Cawl that a TDP can't do. I don't run Cawl, I have had one time where I wished I had the Archmagos ability, but that isn't worth the additional 100 points in my opinion.
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Post by: Iago40k
Pedroig wrote:
BTW, why do folks keep wanting to keep Cawl back, he is a Melee machine, there is nothing you can't do reroll-wise in the Shooting phase with Cawl that a TDP can't do. I don't run Cawl, I have had one time where I wished I had the Archmagos ability, but that isn't worth the additional 100 points in my opinion.
There is a huge difference between Cawl and a TPD e.g. when double tapping Kastellans, or using Kataphrons (which is not advised). I would take Cawl if he had 1 wound and no armor over a TPD any day of the week just because of his rerolls. Only rerolling 1s might be nice for skitarii units but you have the canticle for that. Looking at Cawl what he can dish out in melee plus his +1 -1 modification...sorry but to say there is nothing Cawl can do that a TPD can't do is just...wrong in a lot of ways (even if one is only talking about the shooting phase. rerolling every roll compared to rerolling 1s? please).
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Post by: U02dah4
Really assuming targeting a space marine char in power armour with TA
No reroll
3+ to hit 3+ to wound 5+ save
0.30 success rate= 2 wounds
Fireing 6 arquebuses =3.555 wounds + 1 mortal =4.5555
With rerole all to hit roles
0.395 success rate=2 wounds
Fireing six arquebuses 4.74 wound +1mortal =5.74
Since sm characters need 5 wounds to kill and assuming variance you need at least 6 possibly 7 with the rerole
@pedroig
Also you may wish to check a dictionary arquebuses is the correct plural
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Post by: str00dles1
Pedroig wrote:@U02dah4Made
BTW, why do folks keep wanting to keep Cawl back, he is a Melee machine, there is nothing you can't do reroll-wise in the Shooting phase with Cawl that a TDP can't do. I don't run Cawl, I have had one time where I wished I had the Archmagos ability, but that isn't worth the additional 100 points in my opinion.
Hes a turn 4-5 Melee guy(Or earlier as defense to your robots, but if its early then its not going well for you...). He needs to stay in the very back and give your robots and spider tanks rerolls.
He is 100% NOT a melee machine. Avg of 7 STR 5 attacks is meh. His Axe isn't horrible to kill guys like Termines or get locked in with a horde, but hes far from a beatstick. The robots need that reroll 2's and 3's to really bring the pain. Reroll 2s and 3s is 100% worth it.
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Post by: gally912
str00dles1 wrote:Pedroig wrote:@U02dah4Made
BTW, why do folks keep wanting to keep Cawl back, he is a Melee machine, there is nothing you can't do reroll-wise in the Shooting phase with Cawl that a TDP can't do. I don't run Cawl, I have had one time where I wished I had the Archmagos ability, but that isn't worth the additional 100 points in my opinion.
Hes a turn 4-5 Melee guy(Or earlier as defense to your robots, but if its early then its not going well for you...). He needs to stay in the very back and give your robots and spider tanks rerolls.
He is 100% NOT a melee machine. Avg of 7 STR 5 attacks is meh. His Axe isn't horrible to kill guys like Termines or get locked in with a horde, but hes far from a beatstick. The robots need that reroll 2's and 3's to really bring the pain. Reroll 2s and 3s is 100% worth it.
This is completely accurate. He makes the Kastelens what they are, and I wouldn't even DREAM of any sort of Kataphron without him. I'd agree you can get buy with a TPD for Onager/Skitarii, but the Bots of any kind need him to get any kind of mileage.
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Post by: Gitsplitta
U02dah4 wrote:Also you may wish to check a dictionary arquebuses is the correct plural
A gem! I was calling them arquebii. Thanks!
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Post by: Pedroig
U02dah4 wrote:
Also you may wish to check a dictionary arquebuses is the correct plural
Correct, what I get for checking the results page rather than clicking the link... 
Not from Mars, so Cawl doesn't do me much good anyway, and don't seem to have much of a problem without him...
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Post by: str00dles1
Pedroig wrote:U02dah4 wrote:
Also you may wish to check a dictionary arquebuses is the correct plural
Correct, what I get for checking the results page rather than clicking the link...
Not from Mars, so Cawl doesn't do me much good anyway, and don't seem to have much of a problem without him...
You might not have a ton of issues without him, but he only adds positives to the army.
This goes back to an issue on fluff, which is fine. But you can easily take Cawls Mars and replace it with your own world you are using. Until a Codex comes out (which could be months and months) it doesn't matter he has a label of mars. You can literally say all of your guys to keep your fluff are of planet bluebobjimbo and he is the leader of the planet.
Where it does matter is in a tourney setting, which then youd take Cawl or no reason at this point to play Admech.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
We're all "Mars" now
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Post by: Pedroig
str00dles1 wrote:
You might not have a ton of issues without him, but he only adds positives to the army.
This goes back to an issue on fluff, which is fine. But you can easily take Cawls Mars and replace it with your own world you are using. Until a Codex comes out (which could be months and months) it doesn't matter he has a label of mars. You can literally say all of your guys to keep your fluff are of planet bluebobjimbo and he is the leader of the planet.
Where it does matter is in a tourney setting, which then you'd take Cawl or no reason at this point to play Admech.
I don't disagree with point 1, for some reason I was remembering they both allowed rerolls of 1's, hnece my "confusion".
For Tourney, I'd keep my fluff, my 1, 3, 6, 12 groups and no Cawl. I'm old, stubborn, and have found that at the end of the day, Mathammer isn't the whole game...
Over 20 years it has been rare for me to put a list with GW named characters in them. Was the nice thing about the old "Chapter Master" and its ilk of "add ons" to character models...
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Post by: Kallius
Awesome post! Reading through some of this has helped a newb such as myself alot! Could anyone perhaps suggest a decent start force for say a 500 army which is easy to build upon going up to 1000 and beyond?
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Post by: Jackal444
The start collecting box should get you pretty close to 400-500 points. Add in one more unit of your choice (if you want, you may not have to honestly) and you should be pretty good to go. One start collecting box could get you 1 TPD, 1 Onager, and 2 small infantry squads of rangers/vanguard
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Post by: Pedroig
I did a 500 pt TDP, 6 man Vanguard w/ 2 Cavaliers, 6 man Rangers with 2 Arquebuses, and a Arrayed Onager, was just under 500, if you go two 5 man, you'll be right at 450 or so.
If you want real easy to build on for ~500 points, Get a Knight magnetize the arm bits and the carapace, and you'll be in the 450-625 range with it all the time...
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Post by: str00dles1
Kallius wrote:Awesome post! Reading through some of this has helped a newb such as myself alot! Could anyone perhaps suggest a decent start force for say a 500 army which is easy to build upon going up to 1000 and beyond?
Best bet is as others stated buy the start collecting.
If you really like them, and want a solid force with options id grab the following.
4 Boxes Start collecting, 2 boxes of Robots, Cawl, Knight titan, Box of Infiltrators
Obviously a crap ton of $, but that's what id grab
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
str00dles1 wrote:Kallius wrote:Awesome post! Reading through some of this has helped a newb such as myself alot! Could anyone perhaps suggest a decent start force for say a 500 army which is easy to build upon going up to 1000 and beyond?
Best bet is as others stated buy the start collecting.
If you really like them, and want a solid force with options id grab the following.
4 Boxes Start collecting, 2 boxes of Robots, Cawl, Knight titan, Box of Infiltrators
Obviously a crap ton of $, but that's what id grab
Eh. 3x Start Collecting is really enough, right? And you can sell off one of those TPD if you really want to recoup some of that investment. That nets you the usual suspects of triple Onagers and 30 Skitarii. You can then just buy up weapon bits as you need and build your 15 dudes however you need. Then again, I got into it before the Start Collecting box came out!
Knight is really kinda optional, but its such a great model!
I would also say maybe two boxes of Infiltrators, MAYBE a box of Fulgurites, and a few Balistarii too.
Yeaaaaaaaaaa... not an army for those without deep pockets!
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Post by: str00dles1
Well, depends on the options you want. Yea have 2 TPD NOS I don't really need now, but gave me enough special weapons and I wanted to make 10 guys with the lance and SS from Forgeworld and 10 guys with that blaster gun from FW for when they release the rules for them. So really I bought a 5th box of Vanguard/Rangers...
The spider takes is a good savesings in itself as its a 66$ model I believe. I wanted 2 Icarcus and 2 Laser tanks. I doubt ill ever use all of it, but maybe in some big campaign game thing one day...
I also bought 2 boxes of infiltrators...and 3 Laschicken walkers....and 2 boxes of priests (but I don't recommend the priests as I find them to paper thin for my liking)
I got a lot of it at a big discount NIB in ebay im guessing from someone who rage quit over 8th, or bought one army to many and the wife made him give it up!
All in all I probably spent 800 or so but got a solid 4-5k points painted now
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Post by: gally912
I'd echo str00dles1 here. If you are looking to expand quickly, the most "bang for buck" - that is points per $, you can't really beat his suggestions for expanding quickly.
Robots are close to 5pts/1$
Knight is similar.
Incidentally, these are our best firepower options currently.
Also the start collecting box seems like a pointless endevour after say, 3, but a JUST a skitarii unit + onager separate is $107. Yeah.
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Post by: str00dles1
gally912 wrote:I'd echo str00dles1 here. If you are looking to expand quickly, the most "bang for buck" - that is points per $, you can't really beat his suggestions for expanding quickly.
Robots are close to 5pts/1$
Knight is similar.
Incidentally, these are our best firepower options currently.
Also the start collecting box seems like a pointless endevour after say, 3, but a JUST a skitarii unit + onager separate is $107. Yeah.
Yea, that's why I grabbed (and stopped!) at 4 start collecting. You can usually get them on ebay for 65 shipped or so. At that point no brainer if I wanted 4 tanks
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Post by: Kallius
Thanks for all your help guys! I'll pick up my first start collecting box this weekend. I assume Cawl is a big pick up once I finish off with my first box?
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Post by: Aaranis
Personnaly I'm going to wait for an eventual transport to be added to the army before grabbing Fulgurites. Bought myself a Start Collecting: Militarum Tempestus today, there's my fast attack force that will unload loads of dakka.
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Post by: thatssoeffingcool
im looking to buy into skittari what about
3x start collecting
2x dakka bots
knight warden
2x kataphron destroyers
2 boxes of infiltrators.
and cawl
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
thatssoeffingcool wrote:im looking to buy into skittari what about
3x start collecting
2x dakka bots - Make it three!
knight warden
2x kataphron destroyers - Skip
2 boxes of infiltrators.
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Post by: thatssoeffingcool
should i be buying dragoons or get an imperial flyer of some
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Balistarii are decent. Not mandatory.
Flyers would take you out of faction (Admech) and impact your Canticles. I would just wait for Fires of Cyraxus before jumping on a flyer of any variety.
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Post by: Verviedi
Balistarii with Lascannons. No need for a flyer, I think.
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Post by: str00dles1
Kallius wrote:Thanks for all your help guys! I'll pick up my first start collecting box this weekend. I assume Cawl is a big pick up once I finish off with my first box?
He is with Celestine and Greyfax, but people have him on ebay for about 35-45 NoS. So unless you want all 3 it saves you money. Though id argue for the time being Greyfax is a grey option to take in single detachment if you fight a lot of physic stuff.
thatssoeffingcool wrote:im looking to buy into skittari what about
3x start collecting
2x dakka bots
knight warden
2x kataphron destroyers
2 boxes of infiltrators.
and cawl
Don't buy destroyers, and buy another box of dakkabots and save some money. Also build the Knight that gets Gatling cannon AND RFBC. Possibly grab a Chickenwalker and make it a lascannon one. As stated, not mandatory, but I got 3 and they are pretty good for their cost.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Of all the models to magnetize, this is the one. It is easy too. I stick ferrous tacks into the weapons and strong magnet (usually a small diameter stack) into the upper arm assembly. Bam! No need to fret about polarity and its cheap. Carapace missiles are harder to magnetize, but it can be done. Square magnet (so it sits flush) to top of inside and a magnet on the back of the fronts of the missile part works well.
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Post by: gally912
I'm putting my first knight together tonite. If magnetized the gattling and sword, and the rfbc and thermal, I figure that's probably all the options I'd want or need for admech support?
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Post by: Iago40k
So we have seen a lot of lists with 2 onagers and maybe 3 to4 dakkastelans, cawl, infiltrators etc. but is there a list now that is really the way to go? i.e. 4 Dakkastelans, 3 onagers, 2 balistarii, 2 infiltrators, cawl couple of vanguard a TPD in a spearhead? Something that can work against horror spam, leafblower, ratling shannanigans etc.?
we talk about how spearhead is our go to. So How do we use it for a tournament list? esp. in different tournament settings. in germany our main organizer will keep playing eternal war and maelstrom together, so we need at least a couple of troop choices to hold objectives. How will it work in the US, UK, etc? lets get to work people!^^
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Post by: str00dles1
gally912 wrote:I'm putting my first knight together tonite. If magnetized the gattling and sword, and the rfbc and thermal, I figure that's probably all the options I'd want or need for admech support?
Yes. I wish I magnetized the fist just to have it, but I doubt id ever use it. Also the Caepace guns for his back. Super easy to do those. Pick a missile launcher you like and call it whatever one (usually ion as its cheaper by a lot and still almost as good) and the AA gun.
Iago40k wrote:So we have seen a lot of lists with 2 onagers and maybe 3 to4 dakkastelans, cawl, infiltrators etc. but is there a list now that is really the way to go? i.e. 4 Dakkastelans, 3 onagers, 2 balistarii, 2 infiltrators, cawl couple of vanguard a TPD in a spearhead? Something that can work against horror spam, leafblower, ratling shannanigans etc.?
we talk about how spearhead is our go to. So How do we use it for a tournament list? esp. in different tournament settings. in germany our main organizer will keep playing eternal war and maelstrom together, so we need at least a couple of troop choices to hold objectives. How will it work in the US, UK, etc? lets get to work people!^^
If I had to go to a tourney tomorrow, id bring this. I'm not expert, but I personally feel this is one of the best all commers you could bring, dependent on meta. Id love to grab a knight a lot, but that's a completely different list.
++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [84 PL, 1311pts] ++
+ HQ +
Belisarius Cawl [13 PL, 250pts]
+ Troops +
Skitarii Vanguards [8 PL, 60pts]: 5x Skitarii Vanguard
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine
Skitarii Vanguards [8 PL, 60pts]: 5x Skitarii Vanguard
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine
Skitarii Vanguards [4 PL, 50pts]: 4x Skitarii Vanguard
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine
+ Elites +
Cybernetica Datasmith [3 PL, 52pts]: Gamma pistol, Power fist
+ Heavy Support +
Kastelan Robots [12 PL, 220pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor blaster
. . Heavy phosphor blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor blaster
. . Heavy phosphor blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster
Kastelan Robots [24 PL, 330pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor blaster
. . Heavy phosphor blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor blaster
. . Heavy phosphor blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor blaster
. . Heavy phosphor blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster
Onager Dunecrawler [6 PL, 151pts]: Cognis heavy stubber
. Neutron laser & cognis heavy Stubber: Cognis heavy stubber, Neutron Laser
Onager Dunecrawler [6 PL, 138pts]: Cognis heavy stubber, Icarus Array
++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [29 PL, 600pts] ++
+ HQ +
Tech-Priest Dominus [7 PL, 135pts]: Macrostubber, Volkite Blaster
+ Troops +
Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 50pts]: 4x Skitarii Ranger
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic rifle
+ Elites +
Sicarian Infiltrators [6 PL, 130pts]
. Infiltrator Princeps
. . Flechette blaster & Taser goad: Flechette Blaster, Taser goad
. Sicarian Infiltrator
. . Flechette blaster & Taser goad: Flechette Blaster, Taser goad
. Sicarian Infiltrator
. . Flechette blaster & Taser goad: Flechette Blaster, Taser goad
. Sicarian Infiltrator
. . Flechette blaster & Taser goad: Flechette Blaster, Taser goad
. Sicarian Infiltrator
. . Flechette blaster & Taser goad: Flechette Blaster, Taser goad
+ Fast Attack +
Ironstrider Ballistarii [4 PL, 95pts]
. Ironstrider Ballistarius: Twin Cognis Lascannon
Ironstrider Ballistarii [4 PL, 95pts]
. Ironstrider Ballistarius: Twin Cognis Lascannon
Ironstrider Ballistarii [4 PL, 95pts]
. Ironstrider Ballistarius: Twin Cognis Lascannon
++ Auxiliary Support Detachment -1CP (Imperium - Inquisition) [5 PL, 85pts] ++
+ HQ +
Inquisitor Greyfax [5 PL, 85pts]
++ Total: [118 PL, 1996pts] ++
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Post by: Qu3nt
To my fellow Tech Priests
I am aware that this question might have been asked somewhere in this thread, but I'm going to ask anyways.
If you play two separate detachments, for example a pure Admech Spearhead Detachment and the second detachment is from a different faction, for example an IK, assassin or even a detachment of Primaris Marines.
Does that second detachment negate my Admech's Canticles?
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Post by: Iago40k
 Qu3nt wrote:To my fellow Tech Priests
I am aware that this question might have been asked somewhere in this thread, but I'm going to ask anyways.
If you play two separate detachments, for example a pure Admech Spearhead Detachment and the second detachment is from a different faction, for example an IK, assassin or even a detachment of Primaris Marines.
Does that second detachment negate my Admech's Canticles?
No it does not negate your canticles. Models in your spearhead detachment will receive the canticles, those in the second detachment will not. because their detachment is not entirely made of units that have the canticles special rule.
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Post by: gally912
Here's a take on a list w/ knight. Feeling a bit low on troops, but thats a given with this kinda thing. Seems to go with most current design paradigms, but always worth a fresh look.
+++FORCE ROSTER // 2000P+++
+SPEARHEAD++
+HQ+
-Belisarius Cawl
250
+TROOP+
-Skitarii Vanguard
x6 Radium Carbine
60
-Skitarii Vanguard
x6 Radium Carbine
60
-Skitarii Rangers
x3 Galvanic Rfile x2 Trans-U Arq
100
+ELITE+
-Sicarian Infiltrators
x5 Taser Goad / Flechette Blaster
130
-Cybernetica Datasmith
x1 Power Fist / Gamma Pistol
52
+FAST ATTACK+
-Ironstrider Balistarii
x1 Twin Cognis Lascannon
95
-Ironstrider Balistarii
x1 Twin Cognis Lascannon
95
+HEAVY SUPPORT+
-Kastelen Robots
x3 x3 Heavy Phosphor Blaster
330
-Onager Dunecrawler
x1 Icarus Array
130
-Onager Dunecrawler
x1 Neutron Laser/Heavy Stubber
143
+LORD OF WAR+
-Knight Crusader
x1 Thermal Cannon/Avenger Gattling/Heavy Flamer
Meltagun/Icarus Autocannon
555
TOTAL 2000
Thoughts, critiques, advice? (Also, Icarus on Knight cause I see a lot of daemon princes and stormravens.)
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Post by: Iago40k
Oh btw I just read the whole thing. You can't put 3 dakkastelans into one unit. Its either 2, 4 or 6.
109525
Post by: Qu3nt
@lago40k
Thanks man!
I just wanted a second opinion, because some guys at my hobby store said differently. And I personally think they are wrong
But thanks for clearing that up!
112586
Post by: gally912
Iago40k wrote:Oh btw I just read the whole thing. You can't put 3 dakkastelans into one unit. Its either 2, 4 or 6.
Wait. What? I don't think thats true in any context.
109450
Post by: Iago40k
gally912 wrote:Iago40k wrote:Oh btw I just read the whole thing. You can't put 3 dakkastelans into one unit. Its either 2, 4 or 6.
Wait. What? I don't think thats true in any context.
Its in the datasheet of the kastellans.
"This unit contains 2 Kastelan Robots. It can include up to 2 additional Kastelan Robots or up to 4 additional Kastelan Robots."
Granted that "up to" could mean either 1 or 2 but I do think ou have to take them in pairs. Ill check the german index to compare, maybe some kind of translation clears this up for me.
112586
Post by: gally912
Iago40k wrote: gally912 wrote:Iago40k wrote:Oh btw I just read the whole thing. You can't put 3 dakkastelans into one unit. Its either 2, 4 or 6.
Wait. What? I don't think thats true in any context.
Its in the datasheet of the kastellans.
"This unit contains 2 Kastelan Robots. It can include up to 2 additional Kastelan Robots or up to 4 additional Kastelan Robots."
Granted that "up to" could mean either 1 or 2 but I do think ou have to take them in pairs. Ill check the german index to compare, maybe some kind of translation clears this up for me.
It surely does mean 1or 2. Also, check the Admech Points values section- Kastelens are listed as 2-6.
Now when playing Power Level, you would be paying for 4 if you took 3. But in matched play using the points system, it is any number of Kastelens between 2 and 6.
Praise the Omnissiah.
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Post by: Iago40k
gally912 wrote:
It surely does mean 1or 2. Also, check the Admech Points values section- Kastelens are listed as 2-6.
Now when playing Power Level, you would be paying for 4 if you took 3. But in matched play using the points system, it is any number of Kastelens between 2 and 6. .
Praise the Omnissiah. I'll take your word for it. phew^^
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Post by: Arachnofiend
That "up to" language is in the datasheet of basically every model you can take multiples of. It's only referring to power levels where you're not allowed to take "in between" numbers.
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Post by: Gitsplitta
I really like both of the lists that were just posted. Thanks guys.
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Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Right? I like them too. This thread is producing some solid info for players to use!
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Post by: str00dles1
Welcome, and thanks gally912 for posting a knight list. That's pretty much what id take. Wondering if there is any room for RFBC in place of thermal.
I think if my maths right you could switch to 2nd Icarus dunecralwer, loose a sniper and should be good. and might be good if your fighting a lot of flyers. not saying thermal is bad, just personal preference to get that RFBC in there.
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Post by: bortass
Stupid question time. Would any of the starter box primaris marines fill any useful role as a separate detachment? I have the box set and will be painting them and the death guard once I am done with my key Ad Mech stuff.
Guard probably make more sense but I'm curious if any one sees a gap they might help fill since I already have the models. I think I'll be forced to get a non Ad Mech detachment because of psychers. I'm seeing them on the table at the LGS and I don't like letting GSC or Nids easily pop off a couple powers to help the genestealers get off charges or extra attacks. Smite as well...
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