Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Those militia options are definitely better than they used to be due to the cheaper cost, but man 1 gun per unit at BS5+ is so disappointing. Frag grenades in the launcher might not be so bad against the appropriate targets, though.

TBh why bother with the nade launcher for 3 pts wich averages 1 hit, compared to the stubber for 2 points which averages a hit s4.

I was told the HWT are mostly trash and should only be used for mortars which put out enough shots to possibly hit something.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I was told the HWT are mostly trash and should only be used for mortars which put out enough shots to possibly hit something.

That was before, where the heavy stubbers cost was 4pts a piece.

For militia now they are a viable option, even for Heavy weapon squads since they are now 3ppm cheaper or basically you get 2.5 stubbers per mortar.

There is still an argument for mortar over stubber, but for mainline militia squads the stubber is basically a 2pts S4 guaranteed hit since it also has 3 shots.

nade launcher on the other hand, whilest i like them, are for 3 ppm with the same average ammount of shots but weaker S value only somthing if you really have some odd points left and no place for stubbers.

And the heavy stubber team is an awesome model. Shame there’s only 1 variant, but oh well.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
And the heavy stubber team is an awesome model. Shame there’s only 1 variant, but oh well.

And only available at ridiculous prices

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
And the heavy stubber team is an awesome model. Shame there’s only 1 variant, but oh well.

And only available at ridiculous prices

Ha i managed to get 2.
But tbh, get the IG vehicle upgrade sprue and make some Mortar support teams.
Then you can build your own heavy Stubbers.

Alternativly anvil, or others have stubbers

Honestly I use the militia models as my disciples and regular guard as the militia. I just ordered some heads off Maxmini to go on them since every IG and GSC with a mask on them is sold out everywhere.

Actually pretty much anything IG or GSC bits is sold out. Lasguns, heads, auto guns, heavy weapons, etc

I know it’s bad practice but I’ve calculated the damage per point cost against marines

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
I know it’s bad practice but I’ve calculated the damage per point cost against marines

Too much math for me...

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
I know it’s bad practice but I’ve calculated the damage per point cost against marines

Too much math for me...

It basically tells you what load out does the most damage for it’s worth
Frag and krak are in reference to grenade launcher shots.
The special weapons are all 2 per unit and heavy is only 1.
All lasgun gaks are at max range not rapid fire.
Basically 2 flamers in a 10 man militia squad does the most raw damage
Followed by a unit with a heavy bolter squad.

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
I know it’s bad practice but I’ve calculated the damage per point cost against marines

Too much math for me...

It basically tells you what load out does the most damage for it’s worth
Frag and krak are in reference to grenade launcher shots.
The special weapons are all 2 per unit and heavy is only 1.
All lasgun gaks are at max range not rapid fire.
Basically 2 flamers in a 10 man militia squad does the most raw damage
Followed by a unit with a heavy bolter squad.

You compare max range non rapidfire lasguns with flamers in full range?
That is the perfect trapchoice argument right there. Flamers are not worth it period. 8" range does not compare with anything on the list.

A normal 10 man squad with 2 flamers won't even come close to a 5 man marine squad, not to mention that if the marine player is smart, he will just charge you after shooting you, since in melee militia is generally pisspoor without the support tools.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
I know it’s bad practice but I’ve calculated the damage per point cost against marines

Too much math for me...

It basically tells you what load out does the most damage for it’s worth
Frag and krak are in reference to grenade launcher shots.
The special weapons are all 2 per unit and heavy is only 1.
All lasgun gaks are at max range not rapid fire.
Basically 2 flamers in a 10 man militia squad does the most raw damage
Followed by a unit with a heavy bolter squad.

You compare max range non rapidfire lasguns with flamers in full range?
That is the perfect trapchoice argument right there. Flamers are not worth it period. 8" range does not compare with anything on the list.

A normal 10 man squad with 2 flamers won't even come close to a 5 man marine squad, not to mention that if the marine player is smart, he will just charge you after shooting you, since in melee militia is generally pisspoor without the support tools.

No troop choice we have can compete with 5 marines lol

No troop choice we have can compete with 5 marines lol

militia comes close, if you decide to camp around with a mortar.
5 marines are 65 pts. that is 15 militas with a mortar.

Not Online!!! wrote:

No troop choice we have can compete with 5 marines lol

militia comes close, if you decide to camp around with a mortar.
5 marines are 65 pts. that is 15 militas with a mortar.

I will run it through my mathhamer program when I get home but sadly marines are still way ahead :(
Heavy bolters are the better damage per point cost

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

No troop choice we have can compete with 5 marines lol

militia comes close, if you decide to camp around with a mortar.
5 marines are 65 pts. that is 15 militas with a mortar.

I will run it through my mathhamer program when I get home but sadly marines are still way ahead :(
Heavy bolters are the better damage per point cost

Tbf you could also argue that 1 heavy bolter is 4 stubbers.

Problem is, 70% of time the stubbers will easily outperform the one bolter.

Then there is the fact that los ignoring is immensly usefull.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

No troop choice we have can compete with 5 marines lol

militia comes close, if you decide to camp around with a mortar.
5 marines are 65 pts. that is 15 militas with a mortar.

I will run it through my mathhamer program when I get home but sadly marines are still way ahead :(
Heavy bolters are the better damage per point cost

Tbf you could also argue that 1 heavy bolter is 4 stubbers.

Problem is, 70% of time the stubbers will easily outperform the one bolter.

Then there is the fact that los ignoring is immensly usefull.

Fair enough but you can see the damage vs marines and damage per point in the picture and the extra strength and ap seems to our weigh the extra points.

Nope it doesn't, against t4 targets the heavy Bolter is better, but overall i get 4 stubbers for 1 bolter in points.
And even there you fire at marines with a 3 + armor. Take Sisters f.e. They also have a 3 + save but the wounds generated against them by s4/5 weapons are equal. Now excuse me then i say that the heavy Bolter is just outperformed against most targets.

Stubber vs bolter.
That are 12 shots 4 hits and 2 wounds so 2/3rd dead marine.

Comparativly a heavy bolter has 3 shots, 1 hit, 2/3 chance of a wound and 1/3rd chance of a dead marine.


Against t3 targets the stubber nearly performs equally, except against good armor saves but you still manage more output.

And just from a statistical standpoint it makes sense to tend to as high as possible volume of fire for renegades since that especially on militia bodies leads to more hits.

And this is where the heavy Bolter loses out.
8ppm compared to 2 ppm for the Same volume of fire.
The quality aspect is completly to be disregarded for renegades militia since for quality our troops are to bad.
Quantity however turns this around.

And even for quality argument a disciple Team with heavy bolter pays as cheap as possible 32 pts.
If you get the disciples a stubber instead that would also buy you another disciple, or a nade launcher or even a flamer.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Nope it doesn't, against t4 targets the heavy Bolter is better, but overall i get 4 stubbers for 1 bolter in points.
And even there you fire at marines with a 3 + armor. Take Sisters f.e. They also have a 3 + save but the wounds generated against them by s4/5 weapons are equal. Now excuse me then i say that the heavy Bolter is just outperformed against most targets.

Stubber vs bolter.
That are 12 shots 4 hits and 2 wounds so 2/3rd dead marine.

Comparativly a heavy bolter has 3 shots, 1 hit, 2/3 chance of a wound and 1/3rd chance of a dead marine.


Against t3 targets the stubber nearly performs equally, except against good armor saves but you still manage more output.

And just from a statistical standpoint it makes sense to tend to as high as possible volume of fire for renegades since that especially on militia bodies leads to more hits.

And this is where the heavy Bolter loses out.
8ppm compared to 2 ppm for the Same volume of fire.
The quality aspect is completly to be disregarded for renegades militia since for quality our troops are to bad.
Quantity however turns this around.

And even for quality argument a disciple Team with heavy bolter pays as cheap as possible 32 pts.
If you get the disciples a stubber instead that would also buy you another disciple, or a nade launcher or even a flamer.

Fair points
I think it’s because I also had the points cost of the milita as well.
I am tempted just to run militia nude to save points or to not take troops at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I use the militia to move up and take objectives and screen the elites and tanks so don’t need pew pew for that.
Also with stubbers cultists are better if you do want them for dakka

Considering i only run troops for r&h when I also run my csm that makes sense.
Pure elite works not to bad.

Ok ran the stubber militia in my mathammer program and here is the result

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
Ok ran the stubber militia in my mathammer program and here is the result

Have you just run the stubber and ignored the lasguns or am i missing something and need to clean my glasses again?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
Ok ran the stubber militia in my mathammer program and here is the result

Have you just run the stubber and ignored the lasguns or am i missing something and need to clean my glasses again?

Sorry your right as usual :p
I’m running it at 12” because of bolter drill even though the lasgun gets to rapid fire as well.
Still the marines out preforms the stubber.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not by much though


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also feel free to give feedback on the mathhammer program.
It’s not finished but anything you would like me to add in ir change.
I’m planning to and a save/load feature and unit comparison and an army compare. Hope you guys find it helpful

Try running equal points in disciples and a 5 man squad marines.

Basically 10 disiciples with a mortar team.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Try running equal points in disciples and a 5 man squad marines.

Basically 10 disiciples with a mortar team.

Sadly I haven’t added that feature in the program yet :( will do when I have time.
I can do it in excel later

Not Online!!! wrote:
Try running equal points in disciples and a 5 man squad marines.

Basically 10 disiciples with a mortar team.

8 discple 0.5925925926
mortar team 0.462962963
Total 1.055555556
Damage per point 0.01623931624

5 Marines 2.962962963
Damage per point 0.04558404558

Summary:
Disciple dealt: 0.07407407407407408 damage.
Lasgun*: 0.07407407407407408

Damage per point: 0.01234567901234568
Effectiveness: 54.166666666666664%
Comparitive point: 3.25/6

Disciple dealt: 0.46296296296296297 damage.
Mortar*: 0.3888888888888889
Lasgun*: 0.07407407407407408

Damage per point: 0.04208754208754209
Effectiveness: 184.65909090909088%
Comparitive point: 20.312499999999996/11

Summary:
Marine dealt: 0.5925925925925927 damage.
Bolter*: 0.5925925925925927
Bolt Pistol: 0.29629629629629634

Damage per point: 0.04558404558404559
Effectiveness: 184.61538461538464%
Comparitive point: 24.000000000000004/13

9 disciples, the weapon team can fire both, so 9 disciples with lasgun, and a mortar.

Not Online!!! wrote:
9 disciples, the weapon team can fire both, so 9 disciples with lasgun, and a mortar.

I know, if you look at the summary you can see that the mortar team lasgun fires as well. These stats are at 24” with marines with bolter drill.

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
9 disciples, the weapon team can fire both, so 9 disciples with lasgun, and a mortar.

I know, if you look at the summary you can see that the mortar team lasgun fires as well. These stats are at 24” with marines with bolter drill.

Was confused, see it now.

Sad actually to see that we don't really offer much, then again if we tried a autocannon and a plasma gun on a smaller squad i think we could get a better result.

That said,

Feelsbadman atm to be renegades sometimes.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
9 disciples, the weapon team can fire both, so 9 disciples with lasgun, and a mortar.

I know, if you look at the summary you can see that the mortar team lasgun fires as well. These stats are at 24” with marines with bolter drill.

Was confused, see it now.

Sad actually to see that we don't really offer much, then again if we tried a autocannon and a plasma gun on a smaller squad i think we could get a better result.

That said,

Feelsbadman atm to be renegades sometimes.

I’m trying to add a save and load function going then I’ll send you the beta if you like


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also keep in mind that that is probably the best range for the marines and only if they were stationary (which would be likely for smart marine players but also it’s if the sergeant has a bolter

For anyone wanting to jump ship and play a better more guerilla style faction and happens to like nurgle:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cult_Tenebrous

Chaos nurgle Genestealer cult.

I’m trying to add a save and load function going then I’ll send you the beta if you like

would be very nice.
Thanks for that.

Hi there everyone! Has anyone considered adding a fortification network? The chaos bastion strangely enough is t10, unlike the imperial one at t9. 10 models can fire out of it and 20 can be safe inside. So what I am proposing is to take 3chaos bastions, put inside 15 +3 bs dudes with heavy/special weapons(shoot and the enemy if he is far, and when he gets close you got a 3 inch bonus charging distance thanks to disembarking) Sprincle in some heavy ig artillery that can hide behind the los blocking bastion. And finish it with some good csm allies so that you can take and hold objectives.

Alexisfairos wrote:
Hi there everyone! Has anyone considered adding a fortification network? The chaos bastion strangely enough is t10, unlike the imperial one at t9. 10 models can fire out of it and 20 can be safe inside. So what I am proposing is to take 3chaos bastions, put inside 15 +3 bs dudes with heavy/special weapons(shoot and the enemy if he is far, and when he gets close you got a 3 inch bonus charging distance thanks to disembarking) Sprincle in some heavy ig artillery that can hide behind the los blocking bastion. And finish it with some good csm allies so that you can take and hold objectives.

Yoiu mean basilisks?
Sure, why not, still you waste how many poitns to get a model that has some heavy bolters?
That can easily be destroyed?


EHHHH

So long the meta favours knights, so long a gak ton of AT is there and so long a shitton of AT is there bastions are kinda like a trap choice?

I get what your point is. But we must not forget that the bastion has 20 wounds, at t10 (lascannons wound on 5s) and a +3 save, may I say it is as tough as nails. You wont feel bad about the +5 hitting heavy bolter since we re playing renegades and heretics. We can put some good stuff inside the bastion for really cheap, like lascannons, and we won't face any casualties or moral which is one of our key weaknesses). I have not played against a castellan yet so I might not be the best guy, but I have been brainstorming a list like this for renegades and heretics, and it seems like a pretty good list on paper.

Thanks for replying, I will consider your thoughts on my next list!

I feel like fortifications are always a waste of points, and should only be used on battlefields to add flavor.

Alexisfairos wrote:
I get what your point is. But we must not forget that the bastion has 20 wounds, at t10 (lascannons wound on 5s) and a +3 save, may I say it is as tough as nails. You wont feel bad about the +5 hitting heavy bolter since we re playing renegades and heretics. We can put some good stuff inside the bastion for really cheap, like lascannons, and we won't face any casualties or moral which is one of our key weaknesses). I have not played against a castellan yet so I might not be the best guy, but I have been brainstorming a list like this for renegades and heretics, and it seems like a pretty good list on paper.

Thanks for replying, I will consider your thoughts on my next list!

I also doubt that you 'd get away with it having t10 even though IG bastions only having t9.

Makes zero sense.

I was deliberating over taking out a chunk of my force and instead throwing in an auxiliary detachment of Plague Marines, any thoughts?

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I was deliberating over taking out a chunk of my force and instead throwing in an auxiliary detachment of Plague Marines, any thoughts?

Since i don't have your list Handy i can't really judge it.

But plaguemarines are better then 90% then what the r&h index gives you anyways.

Not Online!!! wrote:
For anyone wanting to jump ship and play a better more guerilla style faction and happens to like nurgle:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cult_Tenebrous

Chaos nurgle Genestealer cult.

I’m trying to add a save and load function going then I’ll send you the beta if you like

would be very nice.
Thanks for that.

Brilliant idea, genestealer cult does fight how I imagine renegades would fight. Can use mutants for some of their units and ogryns as aberrants ect.
I’m now working on a list to try it out and their vehicles look very uprisings like. Can even take brood brothers for other units. Now which sect to take for the cult of tenebrous?
Blades cog or rusted claw?
The Preview of my program is almost ready but still has much to do before completed

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
For anyone wanting to jump ship and play a better more guerilla style faction and happens to like nurgle:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cult_Tenebrous

Chaos nurgle Genestealer cult.

I’m trying to add a save and load function going then I’ll send you the beta if you like

would be very nice.
Thanks for that.

Brilliant idea, genestealer cult does fight how I imagine renegades would fight. Can use mutants for some of their units and ogryns as aberrants ect.
I’m now working on a list to try it out and their vehicles look very uprisings like. Can even take brood brothers for other units. Now which sect to take for the cult of tenebrous?
Blades cog or rusted claw?
The Preview of my program is almost ready but still has much to do before completed

Some renegades, we still miss bloodpact like options, hereteks and their slave half servitors, etc.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
For anyone wanting to jump ship and play a better more guerilla style faction and happens to like nurgle:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cult_Tenebrous

Chaos nurgle Genestealer cult.

I’m trying to add a save and load function going then I’ll send you the beta if you like

would be very nice.
Thanks for that.

Brilliant idea, genestealer cult does fight how I imagine renegades would fight. Can use mutants for some of their units and ogryns as aberrants ect.
I’m now working on a list to try it out and their vehicles look very uprisings like. Can even take brood brothers for other units. Now which sect to take for the cult of tenebrous?
Blades cog or rusted claw?
The Preview of my program is almost ready but still has much to do before completed

Some renegades, we still miss bloodpact like options, hereteks and their slave half servitors, etc.

That is true, different armies different tactics. I imagine that many renegades are an uprising against the administration and ragtag and scrapped together equipment.
But the Bloodpact is awesome I love the Vrak renegades as you know

I am wondering, would people be interested in a common effort to fix the IA13 list up for use in 8th?

Then potentially send it to FW?

I mean i got now 70 matches with the index list under my belt, granted not competitive but still, at this point i feel like there needs something to be done.

Worth a shot, but I'm cynically-minded and assume that list will never be updated again.

Not Online!!! wrote:
I am wondering, would people be interested in a common effort to fix the IA13 list up for use in 8th?

Then potentially send it to FW?

I mean i got now 70 matches with the index list under my belt, granted not competitive but still, at this point i feel like there needs something to be done.

Why not? Couldn’t be much worse than what we have now.
I still think that a brood brothers like rule would be easier with a few additions ie swapping lasgun for cc and pistol, deamonic summons, the gods keyword(ie nurgle) with a bonus for it. Our own relics and stratagems and a few extra units (ie the ones from blackstone fortress)
But anything will do and I will back you up.

I already sent a message to the rules feedback asking them to do something that would allow Renegades to mix with CSM and CD since that is what this faction was built to do. I don't expect anything to come of it though...

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I already sent a message to the rules feedback asking them to do something that would allow Renegades to mix with CSM and CD since that is what this faction was built to do. I don't expect anything to come of it though...

I’ve messaged them afew times as well. But we need more people to message them until they notice us I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We may have a chance with the white dwarf indexes but hopefully our own complete codex (all in one so we don’t need to buy 2 fully priced books). As long as it’s taken over by someone that is not forgeworld. They suck at rules.

Totally agree with you there. FW are in no place to write 40k rules any more, for whatever reason.

As for the homebrew/fix stuff, I made a thread for it, along with a pittance of my feelings on the subject. Would love to hear what you folks are thinking.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/770964.page#10333790

Don’t wanna derail this thread from what little there is to discuss about the actual list.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Totally agree with you there. FW are in no place to write 40k rules any more, for whatever reason.

As for the homebrew/fix stuff, I made a thread for it, along with a pittance of my feelings on the subject. Would love to hear what you folks are thinking.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/770964.page#10333790

Don’t wanna derail this thread from what little there is to discuss about the actual list.

It’s not derailing it and their is plenty to discuss on the actual list imho. Especially with how bad our list is and need to cheese as much as possible to compete in a super casual game. I will read when I can

So I would like my R&H brethren's feedback on this one. Which is a better heavy shooting support option: CSM or the Naked A&M picks that R&H can pull from?

Basically, I love my defilers from the CSM heavy list, but that is about it (and they aren't even that shooty, just an all around solid unit). Havocs do some nasty damage, but have the fortitude of cracked glass. If I don't get T1, and my army is sprawling so reduced odds there, those fellas are almost always popped immediately. I can give them cover with 13ppm marines or a 72 ppm Rhino, but then they are costing me so much and I am effectively hitting on 4's when they come out if I make use of the Rhino. Obliterators are usually solid, but can be inconsistent and don't contribute until T2 after the deep strike changes. Predators are super over costed. Forgefiend's hades autocannon pretty much always underwhelms despite how cool it looks. Hellbrute riflemen look nice on paper, but in practice they tend to be quite vulnerable in the current heavy AT weapon meta and rarely get much done.

I have incorporated an R&H detachment with much success and have been chewing on just swapping out my CSM Heavy/Shooty options for Basilisks, Sentinels, Leman Russ, and any other naked Astra Militarum big guns. Am I overlooking some fatal flaw here, because the CSM codex looks a little less appealing every day. I already have some R&H heavy weapon teams and have really enjoyed the back line presence they bring.

Kias wrote:
So I would like my R&H brethren's feedback on this one. Which is a better heavy shooting support option: CSM or the Naked A&M picks that R&H can pull from?

Basically, I love my defilers from the CSM heavy list, but that is about it (and they aren't even that shooty, just an all around solid unit). Havocs do some nasty damage, but have the fortitude of cracked glass. If I don't get T1, and my army is sprawling so reduced odds there, those fellas are almost always popped immediately. I can give them cover with 13ppm marines or a 72 ppm Rhino, but then they are costing me so much and I am effectively hitting on 4's when they come out if I make use of the Rhino. Obliterators are usually solid, but can be inconsistent and don't contribute until T2 after the deep strike changes. Predators are super over costed. Forgefiend's hades autocannon pretty much always underwhelms despite how cool it looks. Hellbrute riflemen look nice on paper, but in practice they tend to be quite vulnerable in the current heavy AT weapon meta and rarely get much done.

I have incorporated an R&H detachment with much success and have been chewing on just swapping out my CSM Heavy/Shooty options for Basilisks, Sentinels, Leman Russ, and any other naked Astra Militarum big guns. Am I overlooking some fatal flaw here, because the CSM codex looks a little less appealing every day. I already have some R&H heavy weapon teams and have really enjoyed the back line presence they bring.

Things you miss out :
Stratagems, especially cacophony.
Traits.
The fact that all of these vehicles have better versions in the Am codex thanks to traits.
R&H pay spike taxes, of 25%, cultists are the same pts as their csm counterpart but with less usability and flexibility.
Random leadership.



Then there is the fact that compared to the IA 13 veterans and before the list has removed 25% of the unique units.

Bs and ws 4+ is best case.

Granted heavy options like lemans and Basilisks are still better then csm heavy options, which are not good anyways.
Still they don't make an army and their borrow codex just does it better.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Kias wrote:
So I would like my R&H brethren's feedback on this one. Which is a better heavy shooting support option: CSM or the Naked A&M picks that R&H can pull from?

Basically, I love my defilers from the CSM heavy list, but that is about it (and they aren't even that shooty, just an all around solid unit). Havocs do some nasty damage, but have the fortitude of cracked glass. If I don't get T1, and my army is sprawling so reduced odds there, those fellas are almost always popped immediately. I can give them cover with 13ppm marines or a 72 ppm Rhino, but then they are costing me so much and I am effectively hitting on 4's when they come out if I make use of the Rhino. Obliterators are usually solid, but can be inconsistent and don't contribute until T2 after the deep strike changes. Predators are super over costed. Forgefiend's hades autocannon pretty much always underwhelms despite how cool it looks. Hellbrute riflemen look nice on paper, but in practice they tend to be quite vulnerable in the current heavy AT weapon meta and rarely get much done.

I have incorporated an R&H detachment with much success and have been chewing on just swapping out my CSM Heavy/Shooty options for Basilisks, Sentinels, Leman Russ, and any other naked Astra Militarum big guns. Am I overlooking some fatal flaw here, because the CSM codex looks a little less appealing every day. I already have some R&H heavy weapon teams and have really enjoyed the back line presence they bring.

Things you miss out :
Stratagems, especially cacophony.
Traits.
The fact that all of these vehicles have better versions in the Am codex thanks to traits.
R&H pay spike taxes, of 25%, cultists are the same pts as their csm counterpart but with less usability and flexibility.
Random leadership.



Then there is the fact that compared to the IA 13 veterans and before the list has removed 25% of the unique units.

Bs and ws 4+ is best case.

Granted heavy options like lemans and Basilisks are still better then csm heavy options, which are not good anyways.
Still they don't make an army and their borrow codex just does it better.

To clarify, this is to support a daemon army. So I am getting my Daemon Warlord and the Daemon stratagems to spend CP on. I mostly just use CSM to support that these days. Veterans and Cacophony certainly are nice to have, but the units best suited to take advantage of that are expensive and very delicate due to the on-going power armor problem in 8e.

I won't be needing any of the troops from R&H, just cherry picking the best toys that gives me some ranged presence that can threaten enemy armor.

Tbf if you play daemons, why even bother with csm?


Again, you asked what you miss, you miss the fact that renegades are now only "usefull" as a soup ingredient.

Usefull as in generate cp and get los ignoring fire.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Tbf if you play daemons, why even bother with csm?


Again, you asked what you miss, you miss the fact that renegades are now only "usefull" as a soup ingredient.

Usefull as in generate cp and get los ignoring fire.

I wouldn’t say only useful for cp. if we take our “good units” which are elites and not take our trash troops choices we wouldn’t generate much lol.
Still gotta love our ws/bs 3 elites

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Totally agree with you there. FW are in no place to write 40k rules any more, for whatever reason.

As for the homebrew/fix stuff, I made a thread for it, along with a pittance of my feelings on the subject. Would love to hear what you folks are thinking.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/770964.page#10333790

Don’t wanna derail this thread from what little there is to discuss about the actual list.

It’s not derailing it and their is plenty to discuss on the actual list imho. Especially with how bad our list is and need to cheese as much as possible to compete in a super casual game. I will read when I can

Apologies for my negativity, I wasn’t trying to sell anyone’s tactical acumen short. I definitely would love to read continuing discussion as well.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Totally agree with you there. FW are in no place to write 40k rules any more, for whatever reason.

As for the homebrew/fix stuff, I made a thread for it, along with a pittance of my feelings on the subject. Would love to hear what you folks are thinking.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/770964.page#10333790

Don’t wanna derail this thread from what little there is to discuss about the actual list.

It’s not derailing it and their is plenty to discuss on the actual list imho. Especially with how bad our list is and need to cheese as much as possible to compete in a super casual game. I will read when I can

Apologies for my negativity, I wasn’t trying to sell anyone’s tactical acumen short. I definitely would love to read continuing discussion as well.

Lol don’t sweat it bro. We are all masochists here has are we wouldn’t be playing the worst army in the game lol.
The stats don’t lie about it either https://www.40kstats.com/faction-breakdown-report.
In the big tournaments only 3 of us were crazed enough to main renegade guard and they were all knocked out in the first or second match.
But we make good soup and and a 73% faction win rate competitively.
We are at best ok at super casual games and some tactics really work well aka ogryns air assault

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Totally agree with you there. FW are in no place to write 40k rules any more, for whatever reason.

As for the homebrew/fix stuff, I made a thread for it, along with a pittance of my feelings on the subject. Would love to hear what you folks are thinking.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/770964.page#10333790

Don’t wanna derail this thread from what little there is to discuss about the actual list.

It’s not derailing it and their is plenty to discuss on the actual list imho. Especially with how bad our list is and need to cheese as much as possible to compete in a super casual game. I will read when I can

Apologies for my negativity, I wasn’t trying to sell anyone’s tactical acumen short. I definitely would love to read continuing discussion as well.

Lol don’t sweat it bro. We are all masochists here has are we wouldn’t be playing the worst army in the game lol.
The stats don’t lie about it either https://www.40kstats.com/faction-breakdown-report.
In the big tournaments only 3 of us were crazed enough to main renegade guard and they were all knocked out in the first or second match.
But we make good soup and and a 73% faction win rate competitively.
We are at best ok at super casual games and some tactics really work well aka ogryns air assault

I thought Corsairs were the worst army in the game

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Totally agree with you there. FW are in no place to write 40k rules any more, for whatever reason.

As for the homebrew/fix stuff, I made a thread for it, along with a pittance of my feelings on the subject. Would love to hear what you folks are thinking.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/770964.page#10333790

Don’t wanna derail this thread from what little there is to discuss about the actual list.

It’s not derailing it and their is plenty to discuss on the actual list imho. Especially with how bad our list is and need to cheese as much as possible to compete in a super casual game. I will read when I can

Apologies for my negativity, I wasn’t trying to sell anyone’s tactical acumen short. I definitely would love to read continuing discussion as well.

Lol don’t sweat it bro. We are all masochists here has are we wouldn’t be playing the worst army in the game lol.
The stats don’t lie about it either https://www.40kstats.com/faction-breakdown-report.
In the big tournaments only 3 of us were crazed enough to main renegade guard and they were all knocked out in the first or second match.
But we make good soup and and a 73% faction win rate competitively.
We are at best ok at super casual games and some tactics really work well aka ogryns air assault

I thought Corsairs were the worst army in the game

They can be used with yannari which is one of the best in the game and all aldari and drakari are meta atm

That is not entirely true anymore, since you can't field a detachment anymore and mixin got prohibited thanks to the battlebrothers FAQ.

For the Ogryn drop, I assume it's 4 in a Valk? I was gonna say maybe an Enforcer but there's no point with so few models in the unit. And (of course) nothing can buff them in any way, I guess other than a psyker with the warp charge 10 power, but that doesn't seem really worth the gamble. Might as well just bring the 4th roidragebro.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
For the Ogryn drop, I assume it's 4 in a Valk? I was gonna say maybe an Enforcer but there's no point with so few models in the unit. And (of course) nothing can buff them in any way, I guess other than a psyker with the warp charge 10 power, but that doesn't seem really worth the gamble. Might as well just bring the 4th roidragebro.

I throw in a fire and forget PF commander sometimes.

But yes optimally 3 brutes and a boss with energy drill.

also memeber, Ogryns have a fixed morale of 7. chances are they don't lose morale casualities.

Ah yeah I forgot they were one of the few with fixed leadership. Sweet!

Anyone else a little bit grumpy about how much better a non-imperial guard force the Genestealer Cults are compared to us R&H?

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
For the Ogryn drop, I assume it's 4 in a Valk? I was gonna say maybe an Enforcer but there's no point with so few models in the unit. And (of course) nothing can buff them in any way, I guess other than a psyker with the warp charge 10 power, but that doesn't seem really worth the gamble. Might as well just bring the 4th roidragebro.

I use 3 ogryns with the boss and a few characters like commanders to summon a plague bearer bomb.
Best way to get a first turn charge to smash something good and break up their deployment.
But just ogryns work great I’m tempted to run plague ogryns if I don’t take characters


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ph34r wrote:
Anyone else a little bit grumpy about how much better a non-imperial guard force the Genestealer Cults are compared to us R&H?

Every army is better than ours so it doesn’t surprise me. What really makes me go khornate is the fact that we seem to of been forgotten and overlooked. So many cry sbout Grey knights but no one does about us. Even a minor faction like genestealer cult get a codex before us :(

I hope that the chaos count down maybe something for us and there is a big reveal soon but at this point I’m close to giving up hope for renegades and heretics as a competive force.

Not surprised, but not really grumpy. As ulfhednir86 says, every army is better.

I'm just grumpy we have such a small army list compared to loyalist Imperial Guard.

I think I'm in the minority on this one, and I won't keep harping on it, but it's lame. In the end, it just means I have to run the army as loyalists with chaos skin, but I can't run them with my World Eaters or daemons, which is somewhat lame.

 ph34r wrote:
Anyone else a little bit grumpy about how much better a non-imperial guard force the Genestealer Cults are compared to us R&H?

No, i am happy for them that they get a good list.

What i am not happy about and that is just my two cents, is the fact that some of their stuff seems very overperforming.

That said, i wish nobody to suffer through a index list like renegades, or corsairs.
Heck even DKOK is a slog.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Not surprised, but not really grumpy. As ulfhednir86 says, every army is better.

I'm just grumpy we have such a small army list compared to loyalist Imperial Guard.

I think I'm in the minority on this one, and I won't keep harping on it, but it's lame. In the end, it just means I have to run the army as loyalists with chaos skin, but I can't run them with my World Eaters or daemons, which is somewhat lame.

Just to point it out:

In 7th we had the following troop choices:

Militia, but seriously considering how changing they were when another demagogue was chosen they really represent something along the line of: (traitor guard, Militia propper, Horde, Servitorhorde) Say we count them as 3 for now.

Mutant rabble:

Veterans:

Grenadiers:

Plague Zombies:

Total:7 troop choices. /5 without the variants.
_______________________________

Now we got:

Militia

Cultists

Mutants.

3. 1 of these got gutted, Veterans have just pissed off into the void, same with zombies, and grenadiers.

____________________________________

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Anyone else a little bit grumpy about how much better a non-imperial guard force the Genestealer Cults are compared to us R&H?

No, i am happy for them that they get a good list.

What i am not happy about and that is just my two cents, is the fact that some of their stuff seems very overperforming.

That said, i wish nobody to suffer through a index list like renegades, or corsairs.
Heck even DKOK is a slog.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Not surprised, but not really grumpy. As ulfhednir86 says, every army is better.

I'm just grumpy we have such a small army list compared to loyalist Imperial Guard.

I think I'm in the minority on this one, and I won't keep harping on it, but it's lame. In the end, it just means I have to run the army as loyalists with chaos skin, but I can't run them with my World Eaters or daemons, which is somewhat lame.

Just to point it out:

In 7th we had the following troop choices:

Militia, but seriously considering how changing they were when another demagogue was chosen they really represent something along the line of: (traitor guard, Militia propper, Horde, Servitorhorde) Say we count them as 3 for now.

Mutant rabble:

Veterans:

Grenadiers:

Plague Zombies:

Total:7 troop choices. /5 without the variants.
_______________________________

Now we got:

Militia

Cultists

Mutants.

3. 1 of these got gutted, Veterans have just pissed off into the void, same with zombies, and grenadiers.

____________________________________

And our troops have no armour (half that of guard and even genestealer cult) and dint get any bonuses that really help convents are crap while loyalists get regimental bonuses and orders as well as more skilled than militia and cheaper than cultists not to mention guards superior ld.
It’s why I was hoping servants of the abyss traitor guard and beastmen could be used to make up for that. But alas not to be.
If loyalist guardsmen were 5ppm that would help but we need an overhaul.
Our elites are ok but everything else is copied from am or broken bad.

Imagine if you will this, R&H militia and mutants were 3ppm when guardsmen were still 5 ppm.

You could get guardsmen stats including sv and Ws/BS if you upgraded them as bloddy handed reaver demagogue, you'd also pay 5ppm then.

Now guard is 4ppm.
Conscripts are 4ppm.

Militia has any right to be 3ppm with a 5+sv. Now.

I am not advocating for 2ppm milita, that'd be insane, but either reintroduce milita training for 1ppm and lower the price for militia to3 ppm and give militia a 5+ sv, or hike the price on IG by 1 and we still gain a SV of 5+.

That would be needed before we even can compare.


Edit: it also does not help that we literally lost 50% of our troop options and got cultists, shittier versions of them even, as a replacement.
Which to this day are not the right size of squad.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Imagine if you will this, R&H militia and mutants were 3ppm when guardsmen were still 5 ppm.

You could get guardsmen stats including sv and Ws/BS if you upgraded them as bloddy handed reaver demagogue, you'd also pay 5ppm then.

Now guard is 4ppm.
Conscripts are 4ppm.

Militia has any right to be 3ppm with a 5+sv. Now.

I am not advocating for 2ppm milita, that'd be insane, but either reintroduce milita training for 1ppm and lower the price for militia to3 ppm and give militia a 5+ sv, or hike the price on IG by 1 and we still gain a SV of 5+.

That would be needed before we even can compare.


Edit: it also does not help that we literally lost 50% of our troop options and got cultists, shittier versions of them even, as a replacement.
Which to this day are not the right size of squad.

agreed on all accounts. And we need better subfaction buffs including the chaos god keyword, a few stratagems, atleast 1 relic like a deamon weapon then we could be competitive.people had complained to me that I want my army to be op. No I just want every army to be competitive and R&H is definitely not that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe even an upgrade or rule to allow militia to re roll failed hit rolls and give them a 5+ armour save will go a long way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe the Bloodpact subfaction could fire/fight twice a turn just like their world eater brothers and not as great as orders since orders can do both anyway and more but still better than what we have now.

I’m also a fan of maggotkin style books, have a book for each god and units with that keyword and benefits fir them

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/770964.page

Feedback and proposed rule changes.

So far we got this put toghether.

Not Online!!! wrote:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/770964.page

Feedback and proposed rule changes.

So far we got this put toghether.

Cool, had a look. Looks really good. We really need an update.
But back to the tactics. I use my marauders as snipers but has anyone tried them as other load outs like grenade launchers?
How did they go?

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/770964.page

Feedback and proposed rule changes.

So far we got this put toghether.

Cool, had a look. Looks really good. We really need an update.
But back to the tactics. I use my marauders as snipers but has anyone tried them as other load outs like grenade launchers?
How did they go?

Hmm, tbh i would not particulary recommend you the nade launcher, seems a bit like a waste of a good bs profile.

Also there is the plasmagun option.
Or even Melta.

That said in small scale matches nade launchers are a good enough option, out of Personal experience i can say that. (500pts)

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/770964.page

Feedback and proposed rule changes.

So far we got this put toghether.

Cool, had a look. Looks really good. We really need an update.
But back to the tactics. I use my marauders as snipers but has anyone tried them as other load outs like grenade launchers?
How did they go?

Hmm, tbh i would not particulary recommend you the nade launcher, seems a bit like a waste of a good bs profile.

Also there is the plasmagun option.
Or even Melta.

That said in small scale matches nade launchers are a good enough option, out of Personal experience i can say that. (500pts)

So not shotguns and flamers?

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

So not shotguns and flamers?

Ehm, Well if you go for a melee squad why not?
Altough as said above that isn't really necessary since marauders anyways always have 2 A.

The reason I though I’d grenade launchers is because the multiple fire modes meaning a 3pt weapon is like a plasma shot just -1 str and less ap or d6 shots at 24” isn’t bad. When I fix the loading problem with my mathhammer program I can run it but I think it’s worth it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
The reason I though I’d grenade launchers is because the multiple fire modes meaning a 3pt weapon is like a plasma shot just -1 str and less ap but still 2 damage or d6 shots at 24” isn’t bad. When I fix the loading problem with my mathhammer program I can run it but I think it’s worth it.

My thoughts on a lost and damned list with gene cults (chaos uprising )

I can deep strike half of the gene cult into objectives or hide the tanks.
Followed up with the infamous para ogryns alpha strike and a chimera ogryns .

Thoughts welcome.

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [58 PL, 949pts, 7CP] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Cult Creed: The Rusted Claw

Detachment CP [5CP]

Stratagem: Grandsire's Gifts [-1CP]: 1 Extra Sacred Relic

+ HQ +

Acolyte Iconward [3 PL, 53pts]: Icon of the Cult Ascendant, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Entropic Touch

Magus [4 PL, 80pts]: Metallophagic Stave, Power: Might From Beyond, Power: Mind Control

+ Troops +

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 56pts]: 7x Neophyte Hybrid (Lasgun)
. 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Grenade): 2x Grenade Launcher
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 56pts]: 7x Neophyte Hybrid (Lasgun)
. 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Grenade): 2x Grenade Launcher
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 56pts]: 7x Neophyte Hybrid (Lasgun)
. 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Grenade): 2x Grenade Launcher
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 52pts]: 8x Neophyte Hybrid (Lasgun)
. Neophyte Hybrid (Stubber): Heavy Stubber
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 52pts]: 8x Neophyte Hybrid (Lasgun)
. Neophyte Hybrid (Stubber): Heavy Stubber
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 52pts]: 8x Neophyte Hybrid (Lasgun)
. Neophyte Hybrid (Stubber): Heavy Stubber
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

+ Heavy Support +

Cult Leman Russ [9 PL, 164pts]: Battle Cannon, Lascannon

Cult Leman Russ [9 PL, 164pts]: Battle Cannon, Lascannon

Cult Leman Russ [9 PL, 164pts]: Battle Cannon, Lascannon

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [36 PL, 549pts, 1CP] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [1CP]

Regimental Doctrine: Brood Brothers

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 31pts]: Boltgun, Chainsword

+ Elites +

Ogryns [5 PL, 72pts]: 2x Ogryn, Ogryn Bone 'ead

Ogryns [5 PL, 72pts]: 2x Ogryn, Ogryn Bone 'ead

Special Weapons Squad [2 PL, 30pts]: 3x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Sniper rifle
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Sniper rifle
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Sniper rifle

Special Weapons Squad [2 PL, 30pts]: 3x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Sniper rifle
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Sniper rifle
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Sniper rifle

+ Heavy Support +

Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 63pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team: Missile launcher
. Heavy Weapon Team: Missile launcher
. Heavy Weapon Team: Missile launcher

Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 42pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team: Heavy bolter
. Heavy Weapon Team: Heavy bolter
. Heavy Weapon Team: Heavy bolter

+ Flyer +

Valkyries [8 PL, 121pts]
. Valkyrie: 2x Multiple Rocket Pods, Multi-laser

+ Dedicated Transport +

Chimera [6 PL, 88pts]: Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer

++ Total: [94 PL, 1498pts, 8CP] ++

Created with BattleScribe

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
My thoughts on a lost and damned list with gene cults (chaos uprising )

I can deep strike half of the gene cult into objectives or hide the tanks.
Followed up with the infamous para ogryns alpha strike and a chimera ogryns .

Thoughts welcome.

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [58 PL, 949pts, 7CP] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Cult Creed: The Rusted Claw

Detachment CP [5CP]

Stratagem: Grandsire's Gifts [-1CP]: 1 Extra Sacred Relic

+ HQ +

Acolyte Iconward [3 PL, 53pts]: Icon of the Cult Ascendant, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Entropic Touch

Magus [4 PL, 80pts]: Metallophagic Stave, Power: Might From Beyond, Power: Mind Control

+ Troops +

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 56pts]: 7x Neophyte Hybrid (Lasgun)
. 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Grenade): 2x Grenade Launcher
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 56pts]: 7x Neophyte Hybrid (Lasgun)
. 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Grenade): 2x Grenade Launcher
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 56pts]: 7x Neophyte Hybrid (Lasgun)
. 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Grenade): 2x Grenade Launcher
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 52pts]: 8x Neophyte Hybrid (Lasgun)
. Neophyte Hybrid (Stubber): Heavy Stubber
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 52pts]: 8x Neophyte Hybrid (Lasgun)
. Neophyte Hybrid (Stubber): Heavy Stubber
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 52pts]: 8x Neophyte Hybrid (Lasgun)
. Neophyte Hybrid (Stubber): Heavy Stubber
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

+ Heavy Support +

Cult Leman Russ [9 PL, 164pts]: Battle Cannon, Lascannon

Cult Leman Russ [9 PL, 164pts]: Battle Cannon, Lascannon

Cult Leman Russ [9 PL, 164pts]: Battle Cannon, Lascannon

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [36 PL, 549pts, 1CP] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [1CP]

Regimental Doctrine: Brood Brothers

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 31pts]: Boltgun, Chainsword

+ Elites +

Ogryns [5 PL, 72pts]: 2x Ogryn, Ogryn Bone 'ead

Ogryns [5 PL, 72pts]: 2x Ogryn, Ogryn Bone 'ead

Special Weapons Squad [2 PL, 30pts]: 3x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Sniper rifle
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Sniper rifle
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Sniper rifle

Special Weapons Squad [2 PL, 30pts]: 3x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Sniper rifle
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Sniper rifle
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Sniper rifle

+ Heavy Support +

Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 63pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team: Missile launcher
. Heavy Weapon Team: Missile launcher
. Heavy Weapon Team: Missile launcher

Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 42pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team: Heavy bolter
. Heavy Weapon Team: Heavy bolter
. Heavy Weapon Team: Heavy bolter

+ Flyer +

Valkyries [8 PL, 121pts]
. Valkyrie: 2x Multiple Rocket Pods, Multi-laser

+ Dedicated Transport +

Chimera [6 PL, 88pts]: Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer

++ Total: [94 PL, 1498pts, 8CP] ++

Created with BattleScribe

I would migrate that list to the Genestealer tactica.

I also have no idea of how to run a Genestealer list....


_____________________________________________

The nade launcher for Marauders or dsciples for that matter at 3 pts is actually solid investment.

Basically the genecult units are 5ppm guard but can take wounds from characters ona 4+ (very tyrant like), the army has deep strike( very insurgency like imho) and the regiment bonus is +1 to armour save against ap0 and -1 weapons. Very nurgle like imho.
One of the has is a psycher and the other is a unit bubble buff(modeled with chaos iconography)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But I get your gist wrong page.
Just so hard to make renegades work as a mono list semi competitively


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is a hopeful peanut in the stool that is the treatment of the heretic militrum by gw.

Here http://natfka.blogspot.com/2019/02/timeframe-for-shadowspear-boxset.html?m=1

It does mention
“They confirmed SOB is not the ONLY other codex coming out this year. Basically said there are going to be books in between.” and
“ Asked about old books getting looked at and said some would be re-done eventually but keep in mind 9 month lead times on books.“
I know we have all been let down so even I’m not sanguine about it including us but it does mean we can hope to hope of a codex or at least another index.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So you changed your mind about grenade launcher marauders ?

Never was opposed to them, more thinking it a waste of a BS3+ Plattform which could be used for plasma, however in small matches i would consider it a good idea.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Never was opposed to them, more thinking it a waste of a BS3+ Plattform which could be used for plasma, however in small matches i would consider it a good idea.

I do find a that sniper rifles and bolter does give me a lot of control though and in many cases made opponents keep their buff characters out of the fight.

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Never was opposed to them, more thinking it a waste of a BS3+ Plattform which could be used for plasma, however in small matches i would consider it a good idea.

I do find a that sniper rifles and bolter does give me a lot of control though and in many cases made opponents keep their buff characters out of the fight.

Indeed, but that is a very specific setup, namely charachter bullying (mostly against IG i suspect), meanwhile you asked if the Nade launcher was a decent option, which is more inline with the other special weapons you got, and sadly the nade launcher scales not to well with the point size of matches.

That said, in low pts matches, the nade launcher is in essence a budget plasma gun, and therefore actually farly decent little choice in my opinion.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Never was opposed to them, more thinking it a waste of a BS3+ Plattform which could be used for plasma, however in small matches i would consider it a good idea.

I do find a that sniper rifles and bolter does give me a lot of control though and in many cases made opponents keep their buff characters out of the fight.

Indeed, but that is a very specific setup, namely charachter bullying (mostly against IG i suspect), meanwhile you asked if the Nade launcher was a decent option, which is more inline with the other special weapons you got, and sadly the nade launcher scales not to well with the point size of matches.

That said, in low pts matches, the nade launcher is in essence a budget plasma gun, and therefore actually farly decent little choice in my opinion.

Actually the best my sniper marauders have done was against deathwatch (and covenant of nurgle was actually helpful) I had a few lucky 6s on some of his characters and then he held them back until the last turn meaning his army didn’t have character buffs for 2-3 turns helped.
It was my first pure r&h game and although I lost I learnt that drop ogryns and MLS are great, sniper marauders are great at control. Our troops are tissue paper no matter how many there are, play as competitively as possible for a chance to win casual games and r&h need allies to be any use.

So it probably won’t help much, but you guys might want to check the new black stone stuff. Chaos ogryn and a traitor commissar are being released, and will get 40k rules.

Probably not renegades keyword but still.

Niiru wrote:
So it probably won’t help much, but you guys might want to check the new black stone stuff. Chaos ogryn and a traitor commissar are being released, and will get 40k rules.

Probably not renegades keyword but still.

Even if they aren't, they would make great stand-ins for Renegade Ogryn and Renegade Commanders. This makes me so happy

If we get this lost and the damned army and they are propperly made it would be easy for us to just change.

At this point this is our best hope.

As much as I would love to make a skeleton guard R&H army, I just don't have the skill to make it happen. So I've decided to just use the traitor guard from black fortress as my militia. Still expecting it to look cool though

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
As much as I would love to make a skeleton guard R&H army, I just don't have the skill to make it happen. So I've decided to just use the traitor guard from black fortress as my militia. Still expecting it to look cool though

Will still hope for a regular kit though.

Probably should keep this thread for tactics, I did post something in Rumors to discuss these possibilities:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/772810.page#10380167

Anyone think we should add something to the codex about the Beastmen?

I'm good for a specific Beastmen Datasheet, honestly.

Not that I don't want them included, just that I think you can use the Mutant Rabble Datasheet to represent Beastmen and a whole bunch of other abhumans too.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I'm good for a specific Beastmen Datasheet, honestly.

Not that I don't want them included, just that I think you can use the Mutant Rabble Datasheet to represent Beastmen and a whole bunch of other abhumans too.

Mhm, that or you could handle it with the old rules that allowed you to buy the upgrade for ogryns and other squads.

On the other hand including the bsf beastmen in my proposed document could work, however may lead to unfun and strange interactions with my proposed rule Set.

On that note, I had a question of the rules. The PDF says Disciple Squads only have the option of buying a Command-Vox. Do they just not have access to a normal Vox?

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
On that note, I had a question of the rules. The PDF says Disciple Squads only have the option of buying a Command-Vox. Do they just not have access to a normal Vox?

No disciples ( regular ones) should only be able to buy a vox.

Oh okay, then it was just a typo

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Oh okay, then it was just a typo

Yep

Btw, how were your results so far.

Haven't played with my army yet, but I should at least be able to run a game within the next week or two. Mostly came down to not having enough models but I should have sufficient coverage now. Certainly not optimized to what I like, but playable.

PDF? Is this a question about a supplement?

Index Forces of the Astra Militarum says, on page 88, third bullet in 'Wargear Options', that "[o]ne other Disciple may carry a vox-caster."

We were talking about our fan-made codex

Oh. My bad.

Bung us a copy?

Not Online!!! has my email.

It's listed under the OP I think

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Oh. My bad.

Bung us a copy?

Not Online!!! has my email.

I'll give you a link!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mcc4vkayr2s9h2y/Renegades%20and%20Heretics%20IA13%20Update..pdf?dl=0


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mind you a V2.0 is in the works but since i have to write papers atm i am not really able to commit time atm.

I'll have a goosey. Spasibo.

My life is hollow and empty so I have nothing but time, if you're looking for a collaborator.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I'll have a goosey. Spasibo.

My life is hollow and empty so I have nothing but time, if you're looking for a collaborator.

Sure have a gander over to the proposed rules section, it's well mostly written atm by me and uses IA13 as baseline but is actually rather a community effort on the part of the disgruntled R&H population still left

All five of us?

 Excommunicatus wrote:
All five of us?

Conscription law changed to "scrapping the barrell"

 Excommunicatus wrote:
All five of us?

Number six, reporting. Though I'm just starting to build a R&H force.

What we lack in players, we make up for in masses of human and mutant fodder.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
What we lack in players, we make up for in masses of human and mutant fodder.

Or we would make up for it if the price is right.

Not Online!!! wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
What we lack in players, we make up for in masses of human and mutant fodder.

Or we would make up for it if the price is right.

Hey, at least we get the sick conversions. Because we don't really have a choice.

 skonis wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
What we lack in players, we make up for in masses of human and mutant fodder.

Or we would make up for it if the price is right.

Hey, at least we get the sick conversions. Because we don't really have a choice.

Well gw conglomerate doesn't want my money, so be it 3rd parties do exist afterall.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 skonis wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
What we lack in players, we make up for in masses of human and mutant fodder.

Or we would make up for it if the price is right.

Hey, at least we get the sick conversions. Because we don't really have a choice.

Well gw conglomerate doesn't want my money, so be it 3rd parties do exist afterall.

I'm ok with converting from the other GDubs plastic lines, I just hope Rountree continues to be a standup guy and doesn't discontinue the R&H ruleset before I get to play my boys.

Well the model line allready is oop.

Yeah, but I can live with that as long as I can table the things I make. To be honest, I wouldn't have bouth the FW models anyways, because I'm not made of money.

I don't think the R&H rules are going to be dropped, honestly, but my dudespeople are being built so they can also be used as an Astra Militarum list with minimum fuss. Just in case.

It opens up the option of them being used as part of a Genestealer Cult list, too. Budget is important to me so being able to use the same minis as three different Factions on the table is too good an opportunity to pass up.

MHm, i will later today drop the updated version, somewhere around 3 H from now, not at the document atm, i did some shifting with SirHeckington, of the warplans and some overall ideas have been added. Your invited to help there then.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I don't think the R&H rules are going to be dropped, honestly, but my dudespeople are being built so they can also be used as an Astra Militarum list with minimum fuss. Just in case.

It opens up the option of them being used as part of a Genestealer Cult list, too. Budget is important to me so being able to use the same minis as three different Factions on the table is too good an opportunity to pass up.

That really is an upside. I'm making some cultists that I can use for R&H or CSM. The Militia will be trickier, with the Chaos sigils and whatnot.

 skonis wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I don't think the R&H rules are going to be dropped, honestly, but my dudespeople are being built so they can also be used as an Astra Militarum list with minimum fuss. Just in case.

It opens up the option of them being used as part of a Genestealer Cult list, too. Budget is important to me so being able to use the same minis as three different Factions on the table is too good an opportunity to pass up.

That really is an upside. I'm making some cultists that I can use for R&H or CSM. The Militia will be trickier, with the Chaos sigils and whatnot.

well they still are cultists; just paramilitary or even military background applies there.

BTW update is up.

Looks like the Noctilith crown could have some renegade play. Affects all chaos and isn't faction locked.

5+ invun aura. 6", going up to 12".
100pts is a hard sell but could probably get a good amount of renegade artillery in a 6" footprint.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Looks like the Noctilith crown could have some renegade play. Affects all chaos and isn't faction locked.

5+ invun aura. 6", going up to 12".
100pts is a hard sell but could probably get a good amount of renegade artillery in a 6" footprint.

Hmm, have you seen how big earthshakers are? i would be asstounded if you managed to squeeze a battery in that area with crew,

Not Online!!! wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Looks like the Noctilith crown could have some renegade play. Affects all chaos and isn't faction locked.

5+ invun aura. 6", going up to 12".
100pts is a hard sell but could probably get a good amount of renegade artillery in a 6" footprint.

Hmm, have you seen how big earthshakers are? i would be asstounded if you managed to squeeze a battery in that area with crew,

Auras give the bonus to a unit that is within 6”+ so doesn’t have to be entirely within that range to get the bonus, much like units don’t have to be entirely within the bubble fir re rolls as long as a model from the unit is within range. I think the crown is a great addition especially since all of our useless ass troops only have a 6+ save a 5++ invun will make it worth it. I may need to make my troops more static now.

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Looks like the Noctilith crown could have some renegade play. Affects all chaos and isn't faction locked.

5+ invun aura. 6", going up to 12".
100pts is a hard sell but could probably get a good amount of renegade artillery in a 6" footprint.

Hmm, have you seen how big earthshakers are? i would be asstounded if you managed to squeeze a battery in that area with crew,

Auras give the bonus to a unit that is within 6”+ so doesn’t have to be entirely within that range to get the bonus, much like units don’t have to be entirely within the bubble fir re rolls as long as a model from the unit is within range. I think the crown is a great addition especially since all of our useless ass troops only have a 6+ save a 5++ invun will make it worth it. I may need to make my troops more static now.

Wrong in this case because it states "fully" within.
Like some Ork bubbles and that is the problem..

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Looks like the Noctilith crown could have some renegade play. Affects all chaos and isn't faction locked.

5+ invun aura. 6", going up to 12".
100pts is a hard sell but could probably get a good amount of renegade artillery in a 6" footprint.

Hmm, have you seen how big earthshakers are? i would be asstounded if you managed to squeeze a battery in that area with crew,

Auras give the bonus to a unit that is within 6”+ so doesn’t have to be entirely within that range to get the bonus, much like units don’t have to be entirely within the bubble fir re rolls as long as a model from the unit is within range. I think the crown is a great addition especially since all of our useless ass troops only have a 6+ save a 5++ invun will make it worth it. I may need to make my troops more static now.

Wrong in this case because it states "fully" within.
Like some Ork bubbles and that is the problem..

Hmm, just went over the rules and you're right. However, it does increase to a 9" bubble in turn 2, and a 12" bubble for turns 3 and forward. So, turn 1 you gotta pump up those numbers, those're rookie numbers in this racket, but come turn 3 you have a decent sized area in which you can place artillery and heavies, you can even bubblewrap them with your friendly little shooty units.

I will give you daemonhood Status if you manage to have your arty survive until t3.

Not Online!!! wrote:
I will give you daemonhood Status if you manage to have your arty survive until t3.

Yeah, true. I don't really build for competitive, I just like the Noctilith as a noice centerpiece.

 skonis wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I will give you daemonhood Status if you manage to have your arty survive until t3.

Yeah, true. I don't really build for competitive, I just like the Noctilith as a noice centerpiece.

You know considering the lackluster quality of our troops (except If you use my betarules) you probably would not missnvest in it.

I am unsure if I should laugh are be sad.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 skonis wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I will give you daemonhood Status if you manage to have your arty survive until t3.

Yeah, true. I don't really build for competitive, I just like the Noctilith as a noice centerpiece.

You know considering the lackluster quality of our troops (except If you use my betarules) you probably would not missnvest in it.

I am unsure if I should laugh are be sad.

Always laugh. Winning with a mid-tier army is satisfying, winning with a cheese list is expected, winning with a bottom-of-the-barrel-keep-scraping-you'll-get-there-eventually army is like a surprise present. That's the reason I made an Ogre team for BB. It ain't about the win, it's about the game.

Plus, our boys are much more flavorful than 90% of the armies out there.

Always laugh. Winning with a mid-tier army is satisfying, winning with a cheese list is expected, winning with a bottom-of-the-barrel-keep-scraping-you'll-get-there-eventually army is like a surprise present. That's the reason I made an Ogre team for BB. It ain't about the win, it's about the game.

Plus, our boys are much more flavorful than 90% of the armies out there.

Our Boys were once truly flavourfull, when we had a solid mid Tier dex.
Now the index feels more like a bunch of random murderhobos that have raided a munutorium stockpile world, then a propper Revolution, traitor guard, Raider, etc.

But you are indeed correct, when you pull that win out off your pockets, a remarkable feeling.
Also csm regular cultists are now nearly as bad as ours

Not Online!!! wrote:

Always laugh. Winning with a mid-tier army is satisfying, winning with a cheese list is expected, winning with a bottom-of-the-barrel-keep-scraping-you'll-get-there-eventually army is like a surprise present. That's the reason I made an Ogre team for BB. It ain't about the win, it's about the game.

Plus, our boys are much more flavorful than 90% of the armies out there.

Our Boys were once truly flavourfull, when we had a solid mid Tier dex.
Now the index feels more like a bunch of random murderhobos that have raided a munutorium stockpile world, then a propper Revolution, traitor guard, Raider, etc.

But you are indeed correct, when you pull that win out off your pockets, a remarkable feeling.
Also csm regular cultists are now nearly as bad as ours

It ain't easy being a Heretic. Damn loyalists get all the shinies.

What’s the best way to arm a mob of 50 mutants? Autoguns or shotguns?

Dark blessings heretics,
We have a whisper in the warp of a codex.
Too many times these whispers have been nothing but deamonic trickery but just to make you aware of what stirs on vigilius

Hereticus Militrum

Could just be fluff...I want to be positive, but don't want to get my hopes up.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Could just be fluff...I want to be positive, but don't want to get my hopes up.

My thoughts exactly but just making all aware.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But the fact they called them hereticus militrum instead of renegades and heretics is a good sign

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Could just be fluff...I want to be positive, but don't want to get my hopes up.

My thoughts exactly but just making all aware.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But the fact they called them hereticus militrum instead of renegades and heretics is a good sign

Hmm, a surprise, sadly only traitor regiments.

On the other hand, would they just throw fluff in there?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Time of madness wrote:
What’s the best way to arm a mob of 50 mutants? Autoguns or shotguns?

Depends on the Job intended for them, autoguns for when you use them as a screen with an enforcer, shotguns when you just throw them at the enemy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Time of madness wrote:
What’s the best way to arm a mob of 50 mutants? Autoguns or shotguns?

Depends on the Job intended for them, autoguns for when you use them as a screen with an enforcer, shotguns when you just throw them at the enemy.

Time of madness wrote:
What’s the best way to arm a mob of 50 mutants? Autoguns or shotguns?

Saw this last night, but didn't have time to reply. Short answer is what Not Online said: Autoguns to pile bodies on something, and Shotguns to run up to the enemy and shoot them in the face. I'm heading out now, but in a couple of hours I can wrangle some excel-fu, and tell you how they perform against different benchmarks.

Of course, if you want to embrace the magic and the love that is playing R&H, you can run them with Stub Revolvers and confuse the enemy.

 skonis wrote:

Time of madness wrote:
What’s the best way to arm a mob of 50 mutants? Autoguns or shotguns?

Saw this last night, but didn't have time to reply. Short answer is what Not Online said: Autoguns to pile bodies on something, and Shotguns to run up to the enemy and shoot them in the face. I'm heading out now, but in a couple of hours I can wrangle some excel-fu, and tell you how they perform against different benchmarks.

Of course, if you want to embrace the magic and the love that is playing R&H, you can run them with Stub Revolvers and confuse the enemy.

Well the stubpistol is op, just not the one we have, gsc get's the liberator, we get the crude sickly little brother made out of pipes.

Time of madness wrote:
What’s the best way to arm a mob of 50 mutants? Autoguns or shotguns?

So, just finished up lunch and cooked this up:


Size Weapon GEQ MEQ TEQ
10 Autogun 1.089 0.35937 0.17424
Autogun (RF range) 2.178 0.71874 0.34848
Autopistol 1.089 0.35937 0.17424
Shotgun 2.178 0.71874 0.34848
Shotgun (Half range) 2.87496 1.089 0.528
Stub 2.178 0.35937 0.17424
30 Autogun 3.267 1.07811 0.52272
Autogun (RF range) 6.534 2.15622 1.04544
Autopistol 3.267 1.07811 0.52272
Shotgun 6.534 2.15622 1.04544
Shotgun (Half range) 8.62488 3.267 1.584
Stub 6.534 1.07811 0.52272
50 Autogun 5.445 1.79685 0.8712
Autogun (RF range) 10.89 3.5937 1.7424
Autopistol 5.445 1.79685 0.8712
Shotgun 10.89 3.5937 1.7424
Shotgun (Half range) 14.3748 5.445 2.64
Stub 10.89 1.79685 0.8712


Unsaved wounds against GEQ, MEQ, and TEQ for all loadouts, for groups of 10, 30, and 50 Mutants. Keep in mind that Mutants have a 33% chance of getting an extra attack at the beginning of the game, and that this could make Mutant charges srsbzns.

I'm building mine with shotguns (except the champ) so I can run them into people screaming, like the subhuman scum they are.

EDIT: Sorry for the wonky columns, the image link wasn't working, so I pasted it

Is it better to have 10-man squads of disciples with a heavy weapon, or have several 5-man squads with a heavy weapon in each?

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Is it better to have 10-man squads of disciples with a heavy weapon, or have several 5-man squads with a heavy weapon in each?

Better for what, exactly?

As an example, imagine you want some autocannons. A MSU disciple squad with Champion, two Disciples, and a HWT with Autocannon will run you 1 point more than a Renegade Heavy Weapons Squad with three Autocannons. Sure, the Disciples have a 3+ versus the HWS's 5+, but 2 shots at 3+ is 1.32 hits while 6 shots at 5+ is 1.98 hits.

If it's about cramming in Heavy Weapons, there are other ways. Running 10 man Disciple squads also gives some protection against moral. Runing multiple MSUs of a decent Elite unit will cram your slots and make you reach the Rule of Three that much quicker.

Edit for clarity. I should really sleep.

 skonis wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Is it better to have 10-man squads of disciples with a heavy weapon, or have several 5-man squads with a heavy weapon in each?

Better for what, exactly?

As an example, imagine you want some autocannons. A MSU disciple squad with Champion, two Disciples, and a HWT with Autocannon will run you 1 point more than a Renegade Heavy Weapons Squad with three Autocannons. Sure, the Disciples have a 3+ versus the HWS's 5+, but 2 shots at 3+ is 1.32 hits while 6 shots at 5+ is 1.98 hits.

If it's about cramming in Heavy Weapons, there are other ways. Running 10 man Disciple squads also gives some protection against moral. Runing multiple MSUs of a decent Elite unit will cram your slots and make you reach the Rule of Three that much quicker.

Edit for clarity. I should really sleep.

Well disciples are not hit by the rule off 3, but rather 6.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 skonis wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Is it better to have 10-man squads of disciples with a heavy weapon, or have several 5-man squads with a heavy weapon in each?

Better for what, exactly?

As an example, imagine you want some autocannons. A MSU disciple squad with Champion, two Disciples, and a HWT with Autocannon will run you 1 point more than a Renegade Heavy Weapons Squad with three Autocannons. Sure, the Disciples have a 3+ versus the HWS's 5+, but 2 shots at 3+ is 1.32 hits while 6 shots at 5+ is 1.98 hits.

If it's about cramming in Heavy Weapons, there are other ways. Running 10 man Disciple squads also gives some protection against moral. Runing multiple MSUs of a decent Elite unit will cram your slots and make you reach the Rule of Three that much quicker.

Edit for clarity. I should really sleep.

Well disciples are not hit by the rule off 3, but rather 6.

Hmmm, but by "demoting" Disciple Command Squads to HW duty, you don't take full advantage of their Banner shenaningans, though.

 skonis wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 skonis wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Is it better to have 10-man squads of disciples with a heavy weapon, or have several 5-man squads with a heavy weapon in each?

Better for what, exactly?

As an example, imagine you want some autocannons. A MSU disciple squad with Champion, two Disciples, and a HWT with Autocannon will run you 1 point more than a Renegade Heavy Weapons Squad with three Autocannons. Sure, the Disciples have a 3+ versus the HWS's 5+, but 2 shots at 3+ is 1.32 hits while 6 shots at 5+ is 1.98 hits.

If it's about cramming in Heavy Weapons, there are other ways. Running 10 man Disciple squads also gives some protection against moral. Runing multiple MSUs of a decent Elite unit will cram your slots and make you reach the Rule of Three that much quicker.

Edit for clarity. I should really sleep.

Well disciples are not hit by the rule off 3, but rather 6.

Hmmm, but by "demoting" Disciple Command Squads to HW duty, you don't take full advantage of their Banner shenaningans, though.

Banner shenanigans are only worth it if you build with melee in mind.

True that, but I get the feel DCS are good for a lot of things: banners, morale control, they can take special and heavy weapons...

 skonis wrote:
True that, but I get the feel DCS are good for a lot of things: banners, morale control, they can take special and heavy weapons...

Even then, you will field them anyways, why not give them a lascannon or autocannon, atleast they hit something

I remain of the opinion that R&H are, primarily, a gunline Faction/CP battery, currently.

Add a Khorne/Slaanesh Daemon Patrol if you want melee capability that's actually, you know, capable.

Daemonettes, for example, cost the same as Disciples do, but are so so so so so so so much faster at closing and better at ripping and shredding.

Bloodletters cost only 1pt more each.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I remain of the opinion that R&H are, primarily, a gunline Faction/CP battery, currently.

Add a Khorne/Slaanesh Daemon Patrol if you want melee capability that's actually, you know, capable.

Daemonettes, for example, cost the same as Disciples do, but are so so so so so so so much faster at closing and better at ripping and shredding.

Bloodletters cost only 1pt more each.

Hmm, I again refer to Unnatural vigour.
That said guns over melee makes always sense, the best results melee based i got was by using charges as last ditch efforts with khorne and banner support.

Melee elements being present don't dissuade, IMO, that the overall thrust of the Faction is gunline.

Tau have melee units, they remain a gunline Faction.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Melee elements being present don't dissuade, IMO, that the overall thrust of the Faction is gunline.

Tau have melee units, they remain a gunline Faction.

And now you Fall in the trap, Tau melee units don’t exist, milita and Cultists do however have access to melee weapons.

(of course the gun is better even if you charge the Enemy due to universal usefullness.)

THe noctilith crown works on our tanks!
It is a small but happy news, I'll try to field this:

2x commander
2x 10 militia squad
2x 50 renegade rubble
1x enforcer

Baneblade, macharius heavy tank and a macharius vulcan circling a nocitlith crown.

The aim is just sit down and try to have fun :-)

 brugner8 wrote:
THe noctilith crown works on our tanks!
It is a small but happy news, I'll try to field this:

2x commander
2x 10 militia squad
2x 50 renegade rubble
1x enforcer

Baneblade, macharius heavy tank and a macharius vulcan circling a nocitlith crown.

The aim is just sit down and try to have fun :-)

If the tanks make it to turn 2 or 3 to get the 5++, that could work.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 brugner8 wrote:
THe noctilith crown works on our tanks!
It is a small but happy news, I'll try to field this:

2x commander
2x 10 militia squad
2x 50 renegade rubble
1x enforcer

Baneblade, macharius heavy tank and a macharius vulcan circling a nocitlith crown.

The aim is just sit down and try to have fun :-)

If the tanks make it to turn 2 or 3 to get the 5++, that could work.

The hull of baneblade is 5,5 inches !

 brugner8 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 brugner8 wrote:
THe noctilith crown works on our tanks!
It is a small but happy news, I'll try to field this:

2x commander
2x 10 militia squad
2x 50 renegade rubble
1x enforcer

Baneblade, macharius heavy tank and a macharius vulcan circling a nocitlith crown.

The aim is just sit down and try to have fun :-)

If the tanks make it to turn 2 or 3 to get the 5++, that could work.

The hull of baneblade is 5,5 inches !

And we are completely ignoring terrain ?
look not to be pesimisstic, but i don't think it would be a good idea.

Except it hte table is basically empty terrain wise.... but then i belive there are still better combinations for a shootout then a noctilith baneblade

that said, if you pull up to a tale with that it seriously would be a mindfeth might even be able to win due to surprise but it is a skew list so that is a given.

I've Never thought to be competitive, my aim is to have a fun list to try to slow down other mono-built list for a few turns :-)

Personally I love the crown for gunline troops since they only have a 6+ save so the crown almost doubles their effectiveness.
The point about hwt with autocannons over diciples is tempting with only 1 point more but more hits, what is the threat is that they don’t have bodies to take the hits before the big guns drop and only 6+ armour.
Still maybe worth it.

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
Personally I love the crown for gunline troops since they only have a 6+ save so the crown almost doubles their effectiveness.
The point about hwt with autocannons over diciples is tempting with only 1 point more but more hits, what is the threat is that they don’t have bodies to take the hits before the big guns drop and only 6+ armour.
Still maybe worth it.

I also don't think Hwt with anything more expensive then 5 pts is worth it due to the 6+
Disciples atleast have a 5+ and hit atleast once with an autocannon.

 brugner8 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 brugner8 wrote:
THe noctilith crown works on our tanks!
It is a small but happy news, I'll try to field this:

2x commander
2x 10 militia squad
2x 50 renegade rubble
1x enforcer

Baneblade, macharius heavy tank and a macharius vulcan circling a nocitlith crown.

The aim is just sit down and try to have fun :-)

If the tanks make it to turn 2 or 3 to get the 5++, that could work.

The hull of baneblade is 5,5 inches !

Yeah, but it is too long to fit even if its width can fit at one location.

 ph34r wrote:

 brugner8 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 brugner8 wrote:
THe noctilith crown works on our tanks!
It is a small but happy news, I'll try to field this:

2x commander
2x 10 militia squad
2x 50 renegade rubble
1x enforcer

Baneblade, macharius heavy tank and a macharius vulcan circling a nocitlith crown.

The aim is just sit down and try to have fun :-)

If the tanks make it to turn 2 or 3 to get the 5++, that could work.

The hull of baneblade is 5,5 inches !

Yeah, but it is too long to fit even if its width can fit at one location.

I mean you could get lucky and model it on a Baneblade and your enemy is so impressed that he let's you do that.

my mathammer program.
Still very beta but hopefully helpful


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Against marines Heavy bolter HWT are better and more value than mortars

There is some problems with the weapon data loading just be warned

Turns out my friends won't let me use the codex we all made, so I guess I'm going to have to return to the crappy 8th edition one.

Greetings everybody! New Renegades and Heretics player here.

Background -- Long time Imperial player, I'm just now getting into 8th Edition, after having played a bit of 7th, 6th, and 5th, and a Whole Lot of 2nd ed a long time ago. I've been slowly gathering the parts for a Emperor's Children army for the past 8 years, and now I'm working on building an all-Slaanesh force (along with everyone else right now I suppose?). Part of that is building what I was hoping would be a functional, self-contained Slaaneshi Chaos Cult army.

I've looked over the army list in IA, I've read about the opinions and tactics here and elsewhere, and all I can think is ......

....WOW ....
....what am I getting myself in to.

Looking at the army list, I'm not even sure what to make of it. A bunch of squads that are all nearly the same, with just Slight Variations of stats and Slight variations of weapon options, without the rules to make any of them really stand out as what I should take or what I should try to build a force around. (My roommate through 5th, 6th, and 7th ed was a competitive Imperial Guard and a Chaos Marine player, so I saw what made those army lists Go)

And Renegades and Heretics is neither of those, but ... I can't exactly tell what else it is either. From people's comments it's a stripped down version of an earlier edition army list that used to function, but that I showed up too late to?

Anyway! I don't say any of this to complain -- I'm Still Going To Make The Dang Army, as I'm doing this for the lols, as they say. I used to play Marines competitively (I had to, to play against my friends), but I'm really just looking for a casual army to play casual games with, and if I can manage a 50% win ratio (or heck, a 100% loss ratio of close games) I'll be satisfied.

Looking at the Renegades and Heretics list, I'm wondering if that's possible, particularly for an Infantry, Slaanesh based army, rather than a Mechanized Wanna-be IG tank force. I'm going to have a force of Emperor's Children and Daemons, and a Knight or two available to go along with it -- but I'd really like to be able to play as Solo R+H as possible without just being eternally stomped.

A lot of what I would *like* to be in the army is based around what I can come up with fun Slaaneshi models for. As someone who owns several complete companies of Marines, I'm willing to go outside GW's model line to find what I need to build a ~2000 point army. I figure I'm going to use Catachans who have recently fallen to Slaanesh and being accompanied by the occasional stealth Daemonette as the core thematic element. Buff-ass Catachans with Slaanesh tatoos.

---I have about 60 Catachans right now, armed with Lasguns and flamers. I figure I'll need to get more. Are these Cultists, or Marauders, or Mutants? Beats me.

---Ogryns. Fortunately not only do they have some of the few interesting rules, I have the perfect kitbash in mind for them, to keep them as even-buffer Catachans. I have 12 of them, though I know I'd probably never use all of those in a regular army list (unless I functionally could, either as one squad or multiple).

---Renegade Enforcers - It seems like I probably don't need these unless the army has large enough squad sizes, but I'd like to have at least one, at least for modeling purposes. Goal is to get a female Commissar (either GW or otherwise) and paint her up pink to be a secret Daemonette.

---Characters

Renegade Commander -- obviously needed
Malefic Lord -- I read somewhere they got screwed over by a points increase?
Renedage Psycher Squad -- for fun and mortal wounds and buffs?

Obviously these three included, even if again just for modelling purposes.

--- Daemons

I'm not sure how the summoning rules work yet for Matched play in 8th. I know my R+H characters can summon, right? I already own Daemonettes and Seekers I can plop down.

--- Tanks - The only mainline IG tanks I own right now are a solitary Leman Russ, and solitary Basilisk. I don't have the $$$$$ to drop on a bunch of GW tanks (especially as I'm simultanious working on CMarine and Daemon forces, and I they don't support the theme as well anyway.). I might eventually pick up some Taurox to fill in for Chimera for some Catachan-looking squads of some sort (artistically I feel a Taurox looks better than a Chimera for an army for carrying banners that read "Do You Even Slaanesh [lift]").

--- Valkyrie (2 or them) I keep reading about Ogryn drop-assault shenanigans, and that sounds amazing. Take one or two Valkyries full of them and let them have fun? (I have parts of a third Valkyrie -- If I can find the bits I could finish it up for a third aerial deposit).

--- Heavy Support

I have a bunch of heavy weapons not being used. Mortars are dirt cheap. I could sort-of-easily put 6-12 mortar teams together (I have other weapons, but who would they go on? BS5+!!)

--- Other Squads

Sniper Marauder teams? Command Squads? Melta or Plasma Disciple Squads? Giant Mutant-rabble blobs? I could assemble various models to put any of these together I suppose, but none of them are compelling enough rules/abilities-wise Or as art projects to leap out at me to include in an army.

******************

So I realize I'm kind of just brainstorming here. I'll keep looking over people's posted army lists and searching for battle reports.

If anyone has any ideas for a core for an infantry-based, Slaaneshi army utilizing the ideas I'm discussing, I'll super eager to hear it. As someone new to 8th, with this Codex, I'm kind of at a loss right now.

Unfortunately there is no daemon summoning in 8th for us

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Unfortunately there is no daemon summoning in 8th for us

Why not?
Any CHAOS Character can summon, or at least that's what I've been told.

 Blndmage wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Unfortunately there is no daemon summoning in 8th for us

Why not?
Any CHAOS Character can summon, or at least that's what I've been told.

You are correct. the Rules are the same for us as they are for CSM regular.
Meaning however since our charachters are a lot squishyer that we detonate more often.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Unfortunately there is no daemon summoning in 8th for us

Why not?
Any CHAOS Character can summon, or at least that's what I've been told.

You are correct. the Rules are the same for us as they are for CSM regular.
Meaning however since our charachters are a lot squishyer that we detonate more often.

True, but with Enforcers as characters, that means we can have quite a few on board.

ElSmacko wrote:
Greetings everybody! New Renegades and Heretics player here.

Background -- Long time Imperial player, I'm just now getting into 8th Edition, after having played a bit of 7th, 6th, and 5th, and a Whole Lot of 2nd ed a long time ago. I've been slowly gathering the parts for a Emperor's Children army for the past 8 years, and now I'm working on building an all-Slaanesh force (along with everyone else right now I suppose?). Part of that is building what I was hoping would be a functional, self-contained Slaaneshi Chaos Cult army.

I've looked over the army list in IA, I've read about the opinions and tactics here and elsewhere, and all I can think is ......

....WOW ....
....what am I getting myself in to.

Ahh welcome fellow turncoat. Are you here to share our suffering? Belive me when i say this, the army wasn't always this tasteless unmodifyable mess we now call a list. It once was glorious bar none. Now we are a bunch of murder hobos worshipping the pantheon after raiding a munitorium chache out of shere stupidity.

Looking at the army list, I'm not even sure what to make of it. A bunch of squads that are all nearly the same, with just Slight Variations of stats and Slight variations of weapon options, without the rules to make any of them really stand out as what I should take or what I should try to build a force around. (My roommate through 5th, 6th, and 7th ed was a competitive Imperial Guard and a Chaos Marine player, so I saw what made those army lists Go)

And Renegades and Heretics is neither of those, but ... I can't exactly tell what else it is either. From people's comments it's a stripped down version of an earlier edition army list that used to function, but that I showed up too late to?

Anyway! I don't say any of this to complain -- I'm Still Going To Make The Dang Army, as I'm doing this for the lols, as they say. I used to play Marines competitively (I had to, to play against my friends), but I'm really just looking for a casual army to play casual games with, and if I can manage a 50% win ratio (or heck, a 100% loss ratio of close games) I'll be satisfied.

Now this is the Spirit, this is your army literally you can build them how you like it, but ruleswise they are a mess atm. But if you want to make awesome models you are the right way here. (Well chaos awesome models but you get my meaning)

Looking at the Renegades and Heretics list, I'm wondering if that's possible, particularly for an Infantry, Slaanesh based army, rather than a Mechanized Wanna-be IG tank force. I'm going to have a force of Emperor's Children and Daemons, and a Knight or two available to go along with it -- but I'd really like to be able to play as Solo R+H as possible without just being eternally stomped.

A lot of what I would *like* to be in the army is based around what I can come up with fun Slaaneshi models for. As someone who owns several complete companies of Marines, I'm willing to go outside GW's model line to find what I need to build a ~2000 point army. I figure I'm going to use Catachans who have recently fallen to Slaanesh and being accompanied by the occasional stealth Daemonette as the core thematic element. Buff-ass Catachans with Slaanesh tatoos.

Like it allready seems possibly easily achieved.

---I have about 60 Catachans right now, armed with Lasguns and flamers. I figure I'll need to get more. Are these Cultists, or Marauders, or Mutants? Beats me.

First get yourself a plan, do you want to go shank stuff or shoot stuff? Horde or Elites? That determines how you use these. (Sidenote, remove the cultists, Militia or mutants are both worth more bang for their buck due to equipment and cheaper price in ppm)

---Ogryns. Fortunately not only do they have some of the few interesting rules, I have the perfect kitbash in mind for them, to keep them as even-buffer Catachans. I have 12 of them, though I know I'd probably never use all of those in a regular army list (unless I functionally could, either as one squad or multiple).

If you read through this thread then you will find the reference for the "Ogryn dart" a Valkyrie with Ogryns in it charging instantly after ariving. Not only that but you picked the slaanesh covenant so rerolling those sweet swett charge rolls. Also Valkyries are good 1:1 IG ones, atm though i would reccomend not to equip HB's and just give them pods and the ML for as cheap as possible. Also yes you can, Ogryns are taken in squads up to 5 or 6, will look later, but you want to pick 4 for dropping them out of a plane for obvious reasons.

---Renegade Enforcers - It seems like I probably don't need these unless the army has large enough squad sizes, but I'd like to have at least one, at least for modeling purposes. Goal is to get a female Commissar (either GW or otherwise) and paint her up pink to be a secret Daemonette.

( I SEE THAT PICTURE REFERENCE`!) Keeping in line of 2 20 + model blobs of militia or better mutants at max size is a very decent and good combo, due to enforcers still autopassing the morale checks for d3 beaten to death fodder models. Beyond that they are a Chaos Charachter and can summon. Good for a mass line gunline or melee maintenance, keep her Away from your elits though.

---Characters

Renegade Commander -- obviously needed
Malefic Lord -- I read somewhere they got screwed over by a points increase?
Renedage Psycher Squad -- for fun and mortal wounds and buffs?

Obviously these three included, even if again just for modelling purposes.

Commander is good, leave him bare though or give him a beatstick with +on S value.
Malefics are now 80 pts for an psyker that gets no equipment and is equally as good as the IG counterpart at 40 pts. nuff said.
Covens: (Psykersquad): basically exist for one Thing: Getting off unnatural vigour and denying. Still hide them due to them beeing a squad and not a charachter they can get shot at regardless, making them rather vulnerable with only a 5++ to save their excuses for hides.

--- Daemons

I'm not sure how the summoning rules work yet for Matched play in 8th. I know my R+H characters can summon, right? I already own Daemonettes and Seekers I can plop down.

Basically it works like this: You need a chaos Charachter that remained stationary: That guy now rolls an ammount of 3D6, you get to summon a Daemon unit with a powerlevel equal to the rolled one, so mostly smaller daemons. Problem, in matched play you need to have the pts to pay for them. Basically if you play 2000 pts you need to have 70 pts left clear for summoning f.e. if you want to summon 10 bloodletters. That said if you have a big Daemon collection leaving open more points might even be usefull multitool like possibilityand infact a summoning list placed well in a tournament recently, however the list was CSM

--- Tanks - The only mainline IG tanks I own right now are a solitary Leman Russ, and solitary Basilisk. I don't have the $$$$$ to drop on a bunch of GW tanks (especially as I'm simultanious working on CMarine and Daemon forces, and I they don't support the theme as well anyway.). I might eventually pick up some Taurox to fill in for Chimera for some Catachan-looking squads of some sort (artistically I feel a Taurox looks better than a Chimera for an army for carrying banners that read "Do You Even Slaanesh [lift]").

The basilisk gunshield, mister, is a prime spot for slogans, as is the Leman russ side. Also Chimeras are the most buffest transport in the game, go wild with that, also Taurox is a nono due to net getting actual access to it as a renegade player. Course propper kitbashing solves any problem.

--- Valkyrie (2 or them) I keep reading about Ogryn drop-assault shenanigans, and that sounds amazing. Take one or two Valkyries full of them and let them have fun? (I have parts of a third Valkyrie -- If I can find the bits I could finish it up for a third aerial deposit).

Yes very much do so. 1 is a good ace, 2 is allready a bit expensive to keep in reserve. Also again Ogryn berserkers, not ogryns, Berzerkers, they are high out of their mind....

--- Heavy Support

I have a bunch of heavy weapons not being used. Mortars are dirt cheap. I could sort-of-easily put 6-12 mortar teams together (I have other weapons, but who would they go on? BS5+!!)

If you go Elites, they go into the disciples and command disciple squads. Also the best option mathematically is either the mortar and or the heavy stubber, yes the R&H get HWT with heavy stubbers. that is a 5ppm team. Basically if you use militia or HWT squads for renegades that are BS5+ don't go over duble the price of the militia member carrying it and the more firerate the better. I hope you like mortars and stubbers for your HWT's and militia HWT.

--- Other Squads

Sniper Marauder teams? Command Squads? Melta or Plasma Disciple Squads? Giant Mutant-rabble blobs? I could assemble various models to put any of these together I suppose, but none of them are compelling enough rules/abilities-wise Or as art projects to leap out at me to include in an army.

Welcome to the part of the List where R&H shines, the Elites:
Sniper Marauder teams are amazing: basically 34 pts for a 5 man squad with 2 rifles, means 3 ablative wounds. They always have a -1 to hit specialisation that also gives them +2 for armor if in cover. Yes this squad has in cover a 3+ armor an always on -1 to hit modifyer if they get shot at, can ignore morale 5/6 times and only cost 6 ppm not to mention baseline bs 3+ and 2 attacks each. Marauders are probably the bes unit R&H get, but as warned above, keep the enforcer aways since he will just shoot them on sight before their morale rule kicks in.

Disciples are like veterans, except less dakka options (1 Special and one 1 HWT) however they also get ws3+, you want to go melee they can, they also get max loadout at 5 allready and can be taken up to 15 per squad. Give them your AT and boost their squad size and profit from their better morale rules and accuracy or go ham by charging the enemy with dirtcheap but good units.

Command disciples: OK now here we go in the territory off setting up your army. They are kinda dictated by how your army is set up, if you run militia with vox then they will carry a command vox, and most likely and preferably you will use more then 1 command vox sqaud to get the redundancy of the first determination of the random LD: in essence if you get lucky you can give out your whole army of militia an LD of 9. That is good.

Alternatively if you don't go for militia with voxes, and you really want to go melee, they get a banner that allows for a dead model to fight with 1 attack again. Combine this with an enforcer, a coven for unnatural vigour rerolls and give it said banner and use 2 50 man mutant blobs as wrecking balls, alternatively even if you go elites melee, which is possible, the banner still a handy tool.

******************

So I realize I'm kind of just brainstorming here. I'll keep looking over people's posted army lists and searching for battle reports.

If anyone has any ideas for a core for an infantry-based, Slaaneshi army utilizing the ideas I'm discussing, I'll super eager to hear it. As someone new to 8th, with this Codex, I'm kind of at a loss right now.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blndmage wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Unfortunately there is no daemon summoning in 8th for us

Why not?
Any CHAOS Character can summon, or at least that's what I've been told.

You are correct. the Rules are the same for us as they are for CSM regular.
Meaning however since our charachters are a lot squishyer that we detonate more often.

True, but with Enforcers as characters, that means we can have quite a few on board.

3 enforcers, 3 commanders, 3 malefics. That are 9 possible spankers to summon daemons.

Thank you so much for all the guidance! This is great.

I'm going to respond to a few things now, but if I'm not responding to it, it doesn't mean I'm disregarding it.

First get yourself a plan, do you want to go shank stuff or shoot stuff? Horde or Elites? That determines how you use these. (Sidenote, remove the cultists, Militia or mutants are both worth more bang for their buck due to equipment and cheaper price in ppm)

Probably shooty, as that's what the Catachans I have are modeled for. My Chaos Marine/Daemon army should primarily be HTH, and so having a shooty Renegades army would probably make the most sense (I own about 40 Seekers and 40 Daemonettes I can either summon or detachment in, if I need more HTH).

That being said, the idea of not using cultists because they're one point more for 4+ rather than 5+ BS seems strange, but again -- I'm a Space Marine player used to a different edition of the game, so even a 4+ effective BS feels low to me. If y'all tell me that cultists aren't the way to go with this army, I'm listening.

If you read through this thread then you will find the reference for the "Ogryn dart" a Valkyrie with Ogryns in it charging instantly after ariving. Not only that but you picked the slaanesh covenant so rerolling those sweet swett charge rolls. Also Valkyries are good 1:1 IG ones, atm though i would reccomend not to equip HB's and just give them pods and the ML for as cheap as possible. Also yes you can, Ogryns are taken in squads up to 5 or 6, will look later, but you want to pick 4 for dropping them out of a plane for obvious reasons.

I'll have to check, but I think the Errata made it squads of 3-12! So normally I'd probably Valkyrie'ing them in squads of 4, but if I'm feeling super-cheecky at some point I could try footslogging a squad of 12 of them forward. That much better for Combat-Drugging and Vigour'ing. But Valkyries it shall regularly be.

In one of the previous pages there was a minor disagreement over how far you had to move to do Valkyrie drops and etc. It looks like it was left at having to move 20+ which means our Ogryns are always having to test to see if they die on 1's? How much of a problem is that for people?

I liked the idea of the Lascannon to free the Valkyrie up to go after tanks after, but it looks like it's a 5+ to hit, which is lousy for the same reasons as HWT with big guns.

(Regarding secret Daemonette Commissars)

I SEE THAT PICTURE REFERENCE`!

Laugh, yeah, I'd seen it before but wasn't thinking about it at the time. I wish they had some of the 'cute' Daemonette heads for this purpose, but yeah, we're stuck with the current ones (which are fine too). I might be able to model a few from GW stuff, but again, there are some non-GW companies that make female commissars, which is exactly right for this force.

Commander is good, leave him bare though or give him a beatstick with +on S value.
Malefics are now 80 pts for an psyker that gets no equipment and is equally as good as the IG counterpart at 40 pts. nuff said.
Covens: (Psykersquad): basically exist for one Thing: Getting off unnatural vigor and denying. Still hide them due to them being a squad and not a character they can get shot at regardless, making them rather vulnerable with only a 5++ to save their excuses for hides.

Looking again at the stats for the Commander....

Wow. Just seriously ......... Is this the least-valuable character, let alone Commander, in the entire game?
The fact that we have to take one of these and make him our warlord is just .... yeah. :/

I'm not sure how the rules on taking stuff from Killteam work yet, but isn't their another Renegade Psycker character we can pull from there as well? Does that break our .... whatever it's called, for having our detachment be from one Codex. Not sure how this works yet. If we can, maybe I can do that instead of Malifics? [Edit] Actually, it looks like you can only take those if you take the Alpha Legion commander that heads the detachment? Sorry, still learning how 8th works as a whole].

The basilisk gunshield, mister, is a prime spot for slogans, as is the Leman russ side. Also Chimeras are the most buffest transport in the game, go wild with that, also Taurox is a nono due to net getting actual access to it as a renegade player. Course propper kitbashing solves any problem.

Ooh! Yeah, the Basilisk shields. Good idea, thanks.
I'm a good kitbasher, and a decent enough painter, but my freehand painting and other artistic abilities are just crap. While I'll do the primary pain-job myself, I hope that eventually I can trade services to someone to get some fancier work done. A nice WW2-style Daemonette-the-Riveter on the side or top of a Valkyrie or Taurox would be just peachy keen.

If I do eventually aquire a Taurox it would definitely just be as a stand-in, which I'd model with the Chimera weapons. Visually it just seems a lot more appropriate. (But I also may just scratch-build some transports, when I figure what I need).

I hope you like mortars and stubbers for your HWT's and militia HWT.

Laugh, uh..... I'm used to getting my heavy weapons in the form of Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts so, all of this is new to me. My only problem is that I haven't figured out how I'm going to interestingly convert them yet.

Sniper Marauder teams are amazing: basically 34 pts for a 5 man squad with 2 rifles, means 3 ablative wounds.

UGH, I just realized that they don't have any sort of Infiltrate or anything. How do people use snipers without that?? Sorry, I'm used to running Marine Scout Snipers, so, I'm spoiled.

Disciples are like veterans, except less dakka options (1 Special and one 1 HWT) however they also get ws3+, you want to go melee they can, they also get max loadout at 5 allready and can be taken up to 15 per squad. Give them your AT and boost their squad size and profit from their better morale rules and accuracy or go ham by charging the enemy with dirtcheap but good units.

Yeah, I remember seeing my roommate Get Stuff Done with a verteran squad with Meltas.
I'm not as certain how to use these Disciples yet.

Relatedly:

*******Where Does The Anti-Tank Come From?********

Disciples only get a little. Heavy Weapons Squads are bad at it (because 5+).
Is it supposed to come from Armoured Sentinels? Leman Russes? Other Forgeworld artillery?
I'm not finding it.
I really don't want to be taking my Baneblade or Knight every battle.

Your best bet for a R&H army that can hold it's own solo is one that can also be run as an Astra Militarum list.

Then just run them as Astra Militarum when solo, R&H in your 'soup'.

That being said, the idea of not using cultists because they're one point more for 4+ rather than 5+ BS seems strange, but again -- I'm a Space Marine player used to a different edition of the game, so even a 4+ effective BS feels low to me. If y'all tell me that cultists aren't the way to go with this army, I'm listening.

Basically, you pay 20% more for an increase in accuracy off less then that in effectiveness.
Also morale management, is better done by militia, blobbinb is better done by mutants and therefore both units beat out cultists. to expand this, for 4 cultists you get 5 Militia members or mutants.

Looking again at the stats for the Commander....

Wow. Just seriously ......... Is this the least-valuable character, let alone Commander, in the entire game?

Ok STOP RIGHT THERE.
That least valuable dude, provides an army wide buff, and can get the regular warlord traits and there is one that helps out a R&H army massivley, an aura that boosts LD by 1, fun fact that boost can be broadcasted with a command vox. LD 10 militia is annoying to remove.

Secondly: If khorne give him a Energy sword and intervene in melees, he is good enough to make mincemeat out off alot of WAY more expensive Charachters. Thirdly, the company commander for IG is the excact same profile but for 5 pts more.

I'm not sure how the rules on taking stuff from Killteam work yet, but isn't their another Renegade Psycker character we can pull from there as well? Does that break our .... whatever it's called, for having our detachment be from one Codex. Not sure how this works yet. If we can, maybe I can do that instead of Malifics? [Edit] Actually, it looks like you can only take those if you take the Alpha Legion commander that heads the detachment? Sorry, still learning how 8th works as a whole].

Breaks battleforged and you profit from no rules, bad idea imo.

Laugh, uh..... I'm used to getting my heavy weapons in the form of Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts so, all of this is new to me. My only problem is that I haven't figured out how I'm going to interestingly convert them yet.

Stubbers are 2 pts for 3 shots S4, a 20 man militia squad can take 2. Mortars are also great for LOS ignoring fire.
HWT squads with mortars are also one of the most point efficent anti infantry there is in the game funnily.

UGH, I just realized that they don't have any sort of Infiltrate or anything. How do people use snipers without that?? Sorry, I'm used to running Marine Scout Snipers, so, I'm spoiled.

Ok amusing, a marine scout is just about 5 times worse.
They get to ignore morale 5/6 times completely, they get an always on -1 to hit against them so they further ignore allready a lot of shooting and PG may blow up in the enemies faces. They are 6ppm compared to scouts, and are better in melee on top of that. Not to mention that if you throw them into a ruin or somewhere where they get cover that turns into a 6ppm with a 3+ SV.
Think of them as your backfield security force that denies deepstrikes and in general is annoying and is mostly there to target charachters.

I'm not as certain how to use these Disciples yet.

I am khornate, mechanized, as you might have seen in my sig i run a blog, basically i make them 12 dudes, gave them an missile launcher or Autocannon (depends on pts) threw them in a chimera with a pg and a vox.
Alternatively you want to go full WW1/2 trenchwarfare/ mass assult, make them 15 strong give them at and PG and let them hold the line. compared to militia.

Disciples only get a little. Heavy Weapons Squads are bad at it (because 5+).
Is it supposed to come from Armoured Sentinels? Leman Russes? Other Forgeworld artillery?
I'm not finding it.
I really don't want to be taking my Baneblade or Knight every battle.

3 command disciples squads and 3 disciple squads --> leads to 6 lascannons on 3+ for relatively cheap and they all can take hybrid roles (banner for better anti melee, command voxes, etc)

Sentinels with Autocannons, Salamander scout tanks, Leman russes with battlecannons, Basilisks of course are great at AT duty.

Regarding Cultists vs other troops:

Basically, you pay 20% more for an increase in accuracy off less then that in effectiveness.
Also morale management, is better done by militia, blobbinb is better done by mutants and therefore both units beat out cultists. to expand this, for 4 cultists you get 5 Militia members or mutants.

Yeah, that totally makes sense. I'm so used to paying such a higher base costs for my troops, where one point doesn't seem like it'd make as much of a difference, that I don't yet have sight onwhat's valuable at this point scale. Avoiding Cultists makes sense.

Ok STOP RIGHT THERE.
That least valuable dude, provides an army wide buff, and can get the regular warlord traits and there is one that helps out a R&H army massivley, an aura that boosts LD by 1, fun fact that boost can be broadcasted with a command vox. LD 10 militia is annoying to remove.

Fair. What I really mean is looking at him in comparison to other Commanders. What I see is my Space Marine (either Loyalist or Chaos) commanders who get to smash stuff, and who grant rerolls. What I see is Imperial Guard commanders who issue orders, and so on. I'm comparing him to what he would be in a more legit codex, rather than what function he can actually provide, and that's the wrong way to look at this.

Regarding a comparison to SM Scouts:

Ok amusing, a marine scout is just about 5 times worse.

I don't mean that SM Scouts are better - I really don't know, as I don't think I've run any since 6th edition. While the degree of change in the gameplay isn't unprecedented, it does seem pretty major, so I know I need to leave a lot of my expectations behind. I just know I'm totally used to my snipers having infiltrate, so "losing" that makes me unsure of how they're tactically approached. But then you give me good explanation of that, so thanks!

I am khornate, mechanized, as you might have seen in my sig i run a blog, basically i make them 12 dudes, gave them an missile launcher or Autocannon (depends on pts) threw them in a chimera with a pg and a vox.
Alternatively you want to go full WW1/2 trenchwarfare/ mass assult, make them 15 strong give them at and PG and let them hold the line. compared to militia.

I did read some of your blog, last night. I haven't had time to read the entire thing yet, but I'm really enjoying it.
Hm, ok. I think I need to make some sample Disciple squads up and just evaluate them.

3 command disciples squads and 3 disciple squads --> leads to 6 lascannons on 3+ for relatively cheap and they all can take hybrid roles (banner for better anti melee, command voxes, etc)

That makes sense. Again, I'm used to my AT being concentrated into limited sources (Deadnoughts, Land Raiders, a squad of 4 deepstriking meltas), so I'm not thinking that it can be spread around like that. Also, I forget it's valuable now to partially destroy vehicles -- they aren't 100% alive/100% dead anymore, and that sounds like it would have a big effect on play.

Yeah, that totally makes sense. I'm so used to paying such a higher base costs for my troops, where one point doesn't seem like it'd make as much of a difference, that I don't yet have sight onwhat's valuable at this point scale. Avoiding Cultists makes sense.

There are fringe cases, where you would want a cultists over militia or mutants, mainly if you go melee, that said whilest the mutants require more help to do melee (Coven and enforecer compared to enforcerer for cultists) it generally still better to pick the mutants and swallow the pill.

Fair. What I really mean is looking at him in comparison to other Commanders. What I see is my Space Marine (either Loyalist or Chaos) commanders who get to smash stuff, and who grant rerolls. What I see is Imperial Guard commanders who issue orders, and so on. I'm comparing him to what he would be in a more legit codex, rather than what function he can actually provide, and that's the wrong way to look at this.

They are more backline leaders, morale managers and army wide buff providers sooo of course they won't go in like a smashcaptain and just casually make a knight poo it's mechanical pants. BUT, heroic interventions into melees against other charachters or heavy infantry is very well manageable for them, Key word though is that you need to get them up to S4 (Khorne covenant, Maul, axe, etc) though.
My little Meinel beat up an Archon so underestimating them is dangerous.

That makes sense. Again, I'm used to my AT being concentrated into limited sources (Deadnoughts, Land Raiders, a squad of 4 deepstriking meltas), so I'm not thinking that it can be spread around like that. Also, I forget it's valuable now to partially destroy vehicles -- they aren't 100% alive/100% dead anymore, and that sounds like it would have a big effect on play.

Splitfire is now an actual rule for all units without any drawback., just a heads up. so you don't waste any lasguns on a Tank they can't wound.

Huh in the updated errata, Marauder brutes got an additional melee weapon, so +1 attack.
Hurrray i guess.

Had a quick question because the index is very confusing.

How exactly does the command vox net work? I get that it let's essentially the whole table use the command squads ld, but how do you know their ld for use of the net? From what I can tell, you only determine their morale once they take a casualty, so until you can lose a guy you'd have no ld value for the command squad to give.

I'm also not entirely why the troop militia squads can take like 4 special and 2 heavy weapons in a maximum sized squad yet command and elite squads are limited to one or two max. Am I reading something wrong there? Because it looks like I could take a 20 man squad with 4 plasma and two autocannons, which feels.... Unintentional I guess. Obviously they'd just get shot off the board and they don't get orders so it's not broken, just weird.

On that note, what the heck is the point of the commander? I'm allying them with Alpha Legion as a themed list and it seems the only point to one is as your warlord. He doesn't give ld to anybody doesn't have orders, doesn't have auras, and doesn't have relics as far as I can tell so he seems kind of pointless. Which is weird because the pyskers and enforcers seem great. What am I missing?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Had a quick question because the index is very confusing.

How exactly does the command vox net work? I get that it let's essentially the whole table use the command squads ld, but how do you know their ld for use of the net? From what I can tell, you only determine their morale once they take a casualty, so until you can lose a guy you'd have no ld value for the command squad to give.

I'm also not entirely why the troop militia squads can take like 4 special and 2 heavy weapons in a maximum sized squad yet command and elite squads are limited to one or two max. Am I reading something wrong there? Because it looks like I could take a 20 man squad with 4 plasma and two autocannons, which feels.... Unintentional I guess. Obviously they'd just get shot off the board and they don't get orders so it's not broken, just weird.

On that note, what the heck is the point of the commander? I'm allying them with Alpha Legion as a themed list and it seems the only point to one is as your warlord. He doesn't give ld to anybody doesn't have orders, doesn't have auras, and doesn't have relics as far as I can tell so he seems kind of pointless. Which is weird because the pyskers and enforcers seem great. What am I missing?

The command vox is as you said confusing, generally though I would go with the 7th ed rule for it to make it actually work.
So you are allowed to determine the LD without casuality losses on the command disciples.

Also yes militia squads have better access to equipment then our elites. We just have to deal with it.

The commander is the one and only way to get access to the covenants, which he only spreads if he is the warlord, in other words He also has only the traits from the BRB if he is your warlord, where the +1 ld aura is.

Commanders exist right now solely to be warlords and give your army a Covenant

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Commanders exist right now solely to be warlords and give your army a Covenant

Or to not be warlords but instead be cheap battalion tax for CP reasons.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Huh in the updated errata, Marauder brutes got an additional melee weapon, so +1 attack.
Hurrray i guess.

Actually, the brutes ONLY get a CCW. Read the data sheet closely, and it says nothing about them being able to take any weapons.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Huh in the updated errata, Marauder brutes got an additional melee weapon, so +1 attack.
Hurrray i guess.

Actually, the brutes ONLY get a CCW. Read the data sheet closely, and it says nothing about them being able to take any weapons.

Wait, so they now gained a melee weapon?

Awesome thanks for the quick responses. Sucks about the commanders rules but I guess I can make it work. Really makes me want to run the pyskers now though.

Losing the covenant rules isn't a big deal but it does suck. It's just that it doesn't make sense to make the cultist commander the warlord when I've got alpha legion alongside then running the show.

CCW is the default weapon that any unit without a listed melee weapon is assumed to have

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Awesome thanks for the quick responses. Sucks about the commanders rules but I guess I can make it work. Really makes me want to run the pyskers now though.

Losing the covenant rules isn't a big deal but it does suck. It's just that it doesn't make sense to make the cultist commander the warlord when I've got alpha legion alongside then running the show.

AL legion is also known to regard their operatives of the infiltrating (human-kind) as part of it. It is not much off a stretch that they would follow a lone wolf operative that knows when the time is right.

Just has a 1000 pt. Battle against Custodes (including an Orion drop ship). My shooters did little but my plague Ogryn and chaos spawn massacred most of his infantry (so like 6 units) before being pummeled by a dreadnought and dropship.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Just has a 1000 pt. Battle against Custodes (including an Orion drop ship). My shooters did little but my plague Ogryn and chaos spawn massacred most of his infantry (so like 6 units) before being pummeled by a dreadnought and dropship.

Win or loss?
Also the ogryns massacred his infantry? who would've thought

Ogryns are great.

Seems like the ogryn dart took a big hit with the valk nerf =/

drakerocket wrote:
Seems like the ogryn dart took a big hit with the valk nerf =/

Did it? I'm not seeing it..

Captyn_Bob wrote:

drakerocket wrote:
Seems like the ogryn dart took a big hit with the valk nerf =/

Did it? I'm not seeing it..

No more moving after drop, making charges alot more difficult. (slaanesh covenant still keeps it in the game) but yeah

Lost, got beat down by the dropship and dreadnought

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Lost, got beat down by the dropship and dreadnought

Feels bad man.

I'm feeling a little more inclined to try and do an army of melee guys now, rabble plus Ogryn and spawn seems like it might be effective

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I'm feeling a little more inclined to try and do an army of melee guys now, rabble plus Ogryn and spawn seems like it might be effective

Some flags mate, also i had a Amusing match today.

So like i promised the match yesterday, i dubbed it the Blind against the spineless for reasons you will realise soon:

Lits (490 CSM vs 486 of my Mechanized R&H)

CSM (RC Battalion)
Lord, PP, ES
DA

2x5 CSM autocannon
1x10 CSM 2 PG


Me: Vanguard
Commander, ES Covenant Khorne +1 LD aura.
Commander PF

Elites:
2x 11 Disciples, Autocannon team and PG
2x5 Marauders with 2x Sniperrifle each.

Troops:
1 10 Militia HWT stubber

2x Chimera ML, HB.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

General gist, we have some small rules we use for such small games, mainly all infantry can hold objectives, there are 3 of them in a diagonal over the map, alot of terrain, secondary were kill the warlord, 1 unit of any kind in the enemy deployment zone.

First lession i learned that day:
Always buy Voxes, 2 times (once on militia squad holding my hombase objective and 1 disciple double 11) later i had squads beeing killed more by morale then by my enemy.

Secondly, when in doubt charge, ok this is special but basically the middle objective was near a crater, my opponent had his 10 man squad in that crater and the DA behind it for the sweet sweet -1 to hit prayer.
After disembarking, shooting with all i got and only killing 2 marines with the Disciple squad (including a frag grenade) and another 1 due to the chimera support i needed to get rid of the squad. turns out ws3+ and S4 make for quite an impressive charge and overall netted me more kills (due to no cover in melee,) then shooting, Renegade commanders are also good at that both off which killed 3 marines in 1 melee phase, instantly getting their points worth back.

Thirdly:
Chimeras are surprisingly decent in low pts games after the pricdrop.

Fourth:
Marauders snipers, after the first turn my enemy wanted them dead, going so far as using cacophny on a squad off 10 marines against my 5 man squad, which killed 4 out of 5, in it for the money kicked in and the dude remained on the field with his rifle, proceeding to further harass his DA. In fact in my first shooting phase my Sniperrifles took 3 W from the DA tow of which were mortals and 1 was a failed save throw.

Fifth, my enemy later on failed 2 times to get -1 to hit and afterwards had his DA stuck in meleewere he proceeded to fail to hit my other commander which failed to wound him even though he had a PF.

Sixth:CSM feel wierd durability wise it's ahuge jump inbetween them sitting in cover and them not beeing in cover, especcially when lasguns get involved.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I'm feeling a little more inclined to try and do an army of melee guys now, rabble plus Ogryn and spawn seems like it might be effective

Reability might be a problem but i feel like this could work:
2000 pts


HQ:
Rogue psyker coven, Unnatural vigour. 100 pts

Commander, Slaanesh or khorne, Energy axe 30 pts

Elites:
2x Enforcer 60 pts

2x 14 Command Squad, Banner that lets casualities fight again one more time. 148 pts

10 Ogryn brutes with drill 310 pts.

10 Marauders, Hereteks Champion Power axe 65 pts.

Troops:
3x 50 Mutants, (either lasguns or pistols, pistols have an advantage in melee, lasguns/ autoguns for overall situation) 600 pts.

Assault:
3x5 Chaos spawn 3x 165 pts.


Assault detachment:
Commander 2x Chainsword

2x 1 Scoutsentinel AC
1x 2 Scoutsentinel AC

Total 1993 pts.


Edit: Mainproblems.

Rather restricted anti Tank.
Depending on Covenant not enough Hmpf or speed to get to melee, altough unnatural vigour can help in that regard.
Maybee more then 1 Coven.

this is one of the rare cases where i think the Cultists can beat out the Mutants due to the cultists beeing big enough to profit from buffs aswell as having the basic equipment choice to get more attacks and a general better performance due to better stats..
One could argue therefore 4 Cultists squads with Autoguns and Brutal assult weapon might outperform 3 50 blobs of mutants, this however depends on the result on the mutation table.

This list has a lot of beasts, such as 15 Chaos spawn and 10 Brutes, that can be and feel threathenning and both of these units are somewhat on the thougher side to deal with.
Question remains though if we get the updated points and price point for Chaos spawn of the CSM dex.

Alternatively:
Go the elite route:

3x 10 Marauders with melee equipment or lasguns (probably lasguns due to beeing more usefull overall, since marauders don't get covenants )

3x Disciple squads

3 times Command disciple squads

3 times ogryn brutes:

Spread in two vanguard detachments.

This list has higher quality to it:
Fielding 45 disciples, 42 Command disciples another 30 marauders and a number off Ogryns.
You will get less use out of Covens though.

Main problem is you have to paint 216 pairs of feet/claws/tentacles...

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Main problem is you have to paint 216 pairs of feet/claws/tentacles...

Isn't that a general of all non Mechanized (and even there ) R&H armies?

Most off our stuff is highly infantry centric, not to mention monster centric.

Old R&H armies were even bigger footslogs, i mean you could field 100 bodies in 900 pts. infact you could field 100 bs 4+ bodies for 950 pts.



The elite army melee variation though might would be easier to manage:

3x 15 Disciples alone cost 270 pts.

3x14 command disciples would with banner cost another 282 pts.

3x 10 Marauders would also be another 180 pts

3x 12 Brutes would be 1080 pts.

that sounds a lot more manageable.

Also 1812 pts.

I am currently planning to build this list, I have some infantry and most of the tanks WIP:

++Brigade++
[HQ] Commander, warlord, Khorne covenant, power fist 33p
[HQ] Commander, power fist 33p
[HQ] Malefic Lord 80p

[EL] Command squad, lascannon, voxnet 54p
[EL] Command squad, lascannon, voxnet 54p
[EL] 5 Disciples, lascannon 50p
[EL] 5 Disciples, lascannon 50p
[EL] 5 Marauders, 2x plasma, stalkers 52p
[EL] 5 Marauders, 2x plasma, stalkers 52p
[EL] 5 Marauders, 2x plasma, stalkers 52p

[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p

[FA] 3 chaos spawn 75p
[FA] 3 chaos spawn 75p
[FA] 2 chaos spawn 50p

[HS] Basilisk, HB, stubber 110p
[HS] 2 leman russ, 3x HB, stubber 340p
[HS] 2 leman russ, 3x HB, stubber 340p
[HS] 6 mortar teams 48p
[HS] 6 mortar teams 48p
[HS] 6 mortar teams 48p

++Fortifications Network++
[FT] Noctilith Crown 100p

 ph34r wrote:
I am currently planning to build this list, I have some infantry and most of the tanks WIP:

++Brigade++
[HQ] Commander, warlord, Khorne covenant, power fist 33p
[HQ] Commander, power fist 33p
[HQ] Malefic Lord 80p

[EL] Command squad, lascannon, voxnet 54p
[EL] Command squad, lascannon, voxnet 54p
[EL] 5 Disciples, lascannon 50p
[EL] 5 Disciples, lascannon 50p
[EL] 5 Marauders, 2x plasma, stalkers 52p
[EL] 5 Marauders, 2x plasma, stalkers 52p
[EL] 5 Marauders, 2x plasma, stalkers 52p

[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p

[FA] 3 chaos spawn 75p
[FA] 3 chaos spawn 75p
[FA] 2 chaos spawn 50p

[HS] Basilisk, HB, stubber 110p
[HS] 2 leman russ, 3x HB, stubber 340p
[HS] 2 leman russ, 3x HB, stubber 340p
[HS] 6 mortar teams 48p
[HS] 6 mortar teams 48p
[HS] 6 mortar teams 48p

++Fortifications Network++
[FT] Noctilith Crown 100p

Seems decent, it's 2000 pts right?
2 things though. Why pay for command voxes when you don't use normal voxes for this list.
Secondly this is a gunline it seems, covenant of Khorne though is an proactive covenant, i would suggest tzeentch.

I like the chaos spawn as Mini distraction fexes. Altough shouldn't they cost 33 pts? Then again if we go by the most up to date sheet then you are right with 25 / spawn.

I am unsure on the Noctilith but the 5++ is great for a gunline and it's anti psy can save your Bacon.

The malefic Lord should probably get warp Flux since it is in essence an anti vehicle and charachter smite.

2000p, yes.
I picked Khorne because honestly the other ones all seem pretty lackluster. Not many of my units are going to have effective overwatch, but I think Tzeentch is worth testing for sure.

I think that's an oversight on my part on the command voxes, I'll have to re-read them.

Spawns are 25 points, I believe, due to the most up to date points cost.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Isn't that a general of all non Mechanized (and even there ) R&H armies?

Most off our stuff is highly infantry centric, not to mention monster centric.

My planned 2k list has 120 pairs of boots, seven Tanks and no monsters...

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Isn't that a general of all non Mechanized (and even there ) R&H armies?

Most off our stuff is highly infantry centric, not to mention monster centric.

My planned 2k list has 120 pairs of boots, seven Tanks and no monsters...

120 dudes still heavier on infantry than many other armies.
Also spawns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ph34r wrote:
2000p, yes.
I picked Khorne because honestly the other ones all seem pretty lackluster. Not many of my units are going to have effective overwatch, but I think Tzeentch is worth testing for sure.

I think that's an oversight on my part on the command voxes, I'll have to re-read them.

Spawns are 25 points, I believe, due to the most up to date points cost.

Command voxes require that the squad that wants to borrow morale, needs to also have a vox.

I would like to spitball something:

Basically a shenanigans list:

two times the FA detachments:

Commander 25 pts:

3x3 Scout sentinels ML 315pts

3x3 Armored Sentinels ML 315 pts.

__________
Commander 25 pts:

3x5 Chaos Spawn:375pts

3x3 Salamander Scout tanks (AC, HB, HS)675 pts:

Total 1730 pts.

Lowest T value of targetable units is 5, more often then not 6 or 7.
18 models have a scout movement phase, to either hide or get into firing position.
The spawn would probably profit massively from the covenant of slaanesh.

It's sort of the opposite of a glass cannon though, isn't it? It's sorta tough, but it can't kill stuff fast enough.

Like, so you blow the crap out of my Leman Russ and my Basilisks, but you haven't got enough killing capacity to deal with my horde. Also, what do you do if you face a Knight of some sort?

Meanwhile, it's not exactly difficult to bring down Sentinels or Salamanders, so your output is significantly less and less each turn.

My main issue with such a list would be, what happens when the enemy has lots of vehicles? 18 missile launchers certainly isn't nothing, but they're all kinda fragile.

Do you have the models for such a list? I would definitely be interested to see how it goes. I have speculated on similar list types but always shy away from sentinels.

 ph34r wrote:
My main issue with such a list would be, what happens when the enemy has lots of vehicles? 18 missile launchers certainly isn't nothing, but they're all kinda fragile.

Do you have the models for such a list? I would definitely be interested to see how it goes. I have speculated on similar list types but always shy away from sentinels.

Actually i meant Multilasers.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
It's sort of the opposite of a glass cannon though, isn't it? It's sorta tough, but it can't kill stuff fast enough.

Like, so you blow the crap out of my Leman Russ and my Basilisks, but you haven't got enough killing capacity to deal with my horde. Also, what do you do if you face a Knight of some sort?

Meanwhile, it's not exactly difficult to bring down Sentinels or Salamanders, so your output is significantly less and less each turn.

considering i still have 270 pts left though.

So technically i could field another 18 Mortars for 124 pts, so i would have 146 left which would be enough for another 30 militia and a command squad.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree though the Salamander scouts tanks would probably be better invested in something else.

Probably cut 2 tanks and get access to another 10 man militia squad and strengthen the command squads

Oh. 18 multilasers are going to do basically nothing. I would run some numbers on how many vehicles or infantry those multilasers would kill, I suspect it is disappointing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, slightly modified idea:

++Brigade++
[HQ] Commander, warlord, Khorne covenant, power fist 33p
[HQ] Malefic Lord 80p
[HQ] Malefic Lord 80p

[EL] Command squad, lascannon 44p
[EL] 5 Disciples, lascannon 50p
[EL] 5 Disciples, lascannon 50p
[EL] 5 Marauders, 2x plasma, stalkers 54p
[EL] 5 Marauders, 2x melta, stalkers 58p

[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p
[TR] 10 militia, stubber 42p

[FA] chaos spawn 25p
[FA] chaos spawn 25p
[FA] chaos spawn 25p

[HS] Basilisk, HB, stubber 110p
[HS] 3 leman russ, 3x HB, stubber 510p
[HS] 6 mortar teams 48p
[HS] 6 mortar teams 48p
[HS] 6 mortar teams 48p

[LW] Macharius Vulcan, twin heavy stubbers, 3 more heavy stubbers 360p

[FT] Noctilith Crown 100p

2000p exactly, could be changed around a little bit. I realized I had an illegal 6 Heavy Support choices, so this way I go down to the 5 a Brigade allows, and gain a pretty cool superheavy, and a second psyker.

Point is though, why field 2 psykers, r&h powers aren't that great and spamming smite is a waste really, considering that a IG equivalent is still 40 pts with armor and equipment.

Also brigade is relatively questionable, i mean what are you going to do with that ammount of CP?
Considering also that troops are somewhat lackluster for us..

Would've made the marauder squads bigger then msu aswell as fielded 3 overall, also don't really see the point in the command squad, it isn't liked you allready have fielded enough disciples to switch to them.

All true points. That is useful feedback. I guess for the malefic lords, the goal is to increase the likelihood of a miscast so they can go punch people.

As for the command points, yeah. I guess you would basically just be rerolling one crucial damage roll per turn.... and I don’t know what else.

The disciples vs command squad thing is a fair point too.

 ph34r wrote:
All true points. That is useful feedback. I guess for the malefic lords, the goal is to increase the likelihood of a miscast so they can go punch people.

As for the command points, yeah. I guess you would basically just be rerolling one crucial damage roll per turn.... and I don’t know what else.

The disciples vs command squad thing is a fair point too.

well maybee you could throw out on the auto morale, but frankly who cares if 10 man squad is running away anyways.

As for malefics, banking on getting possesed, you have 2 results that happens, out off 36 possible results. 1/18, is a damn low chance. Especially when we consider that HE HAS ONLY ONE power to cast per turn.