A lot of misinformed people think Shadespire is AoS Mordheim and that's completely wrong.
Shadespire is the official tournament game for Fantasy and KT will be the official tournament game for 40k
Shadespire is a board game played on a tiny board which is the exact same every game, on a hexagonal grid, with warbands starting basically right next to each other, in fixed three turn games... it has about as much in common with Mordheim, Necromunda and previous Kill Team rule sets as it has with Monopoly. We already know Kill Team looks like Mordheim and Necromunda with a fairly big, free-form board and not a tiny cardboard playing field. There’s about 0% chance it’ll be anything like Shadespire.
Weird that the game was announced with a video at GAMA then there was radio silence at Adepticon. What's nex big convention? We aren't getting a slow drip, they seemed to have turned off the faucet.
Chairman Aeon wrote: Weird that the game was announced with a video at GAMA then there was radio silence at Adepticon. What's nex big convention? We aren't getting a slow drip, they seemed to have turned off the faucet.
It's not weird when you take into account that GAMA is a trade show and not a game convention.
Mymearan wrote: There’s about 0% chance it’ll be anything like Shadespire.
My point is, you are all assuming that KT will be similar to anything we had before while there is a high chance that it is nothing like anything GW made before
I can say it will have more in common with Shadespire than with previous KT, just because it gets official organised play support as maybe the only point in common and can still be right.
as the only information we have is that it will be something speculation about what the new game must have because of previous specialist games makes not much sense for now
Mymearan wrote: There’s about 0% chance it’ll be anything like Shadespire.
My point is, you are all assuming that KT will be similar to anything we had before while there is a high chance that it is nothing like anything GW made before
I can say it will have more in common with Shadespire than with previous KT, just because it gets official organised play support as maybe the only point in common and can still be right.
as the only information we have is that it will be something speculation about what the new game must have because of previous specialist games makes not much sense for now
If the only point in common with shadespire is it gets organised play support, it has much more in common with 40k. Same universe. Same models. Not played on a hex board. Uses scenery. Customisation.
In the absence of compelling reasons to think otherwise, the burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate why we should expect Kill Team 2018 to differ radically from the three (or is it four) editions that have preceded it.
First of all changing from D6 to something else is a big step for GW
So why to people expect that if new KT uses a new dice no other GW game uses, that it would be similar to anything we had before?
Or do you really think they just changed the dice and kept the rest the same?
Lord Fishface wrote: In the absence of compelling reasons to think otherwise, the burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate why we should expect Kill Team 2018 to differ radically from the three (or is it four) editions that have preceded it.
We'll I would consider the fact that GW said it would be an entirely new game not based on any existing ruleset to be fairly compelling evidence it won't just be the same as previous "editions" of Kill Team.
It might be similar in theme and scope, but in terms of rules it could be anything.
There is a D10 on a table in the video, but the rulebook also mentions D6 rolls.
I'm not convinced the game will be D10 based (as in, to hits and wound rolls will use D10). I find it more likely that it's just a counter. A departure from D6 would be a big step for GW, and I think in the right direction, and a small game is probably where they would try it first, but we really can't say for sure that's what's happening.
kodos wrote: First of all changing from D6 to something else is a big step for GW
So why to people expect that if new KT uses a new dice no other GW game uses, that it would be similar to anything we had before?
Or do you really think they just changed the dice and kept the rest the same?
Except 8th edition does use d10s. As wound trackers. I think everyone is getting over-excited about this; one shot with a d10 on the table =/= new gaming system.
kodos wrote: First of all changing from D6 to something else is a big step for GW
So why to people expect that if new KT uses a new dice no other GW game uses, that it would be similar to anything we had before?
Or do you really think they just changed the dice and kept the rest the same?
Except 8th edition does use d10s. As wound trackers. I think everyone is getting over-excited about this; one shot with a d10 on the table =/= new gaming system.
GW *stating* it’s a new gaming system does however. And the D10s are for in-game use, not just as markers.
fresus wrote: There is a D10 on a table in the video, but the rulebook also mentions D6 rolls.
I'm not convinced the game will be D10 based (as in, to hits and wound rolls will use D10). I find it more likely that it's just a counter. A departure from D6 would be a big step for GW, and I think in the right direction, and a small game is probably where they would try it first, but we really can't say for sure that's what's happening.
One of the heresy board games used d10s didn't it?
Hmm. I was never too sure I liked that mechanic. I’d rather they took their inspiration from Betrayal at Calth, personally.
Edit: of course, now that I think about it properly, B@C and WU:S are mechanically nearly identical. So nu!KT is definitely nothing like Shadespire then.
Skimming my copy of Rogue Trader today I was reminded that it uses just about every polyhedral dice under the sun, so maybe GW is going back to it’s roots...
French wargame studio (a french youtube channel) said it will be released with the DW codex.
But the two guys doing the live show didn't agree on the order the next three codex will be released (they have the info, just couldn't recall it during the show), and didn't give more details about the stuff.
So basically it's coming soonish, anytime between now and a couple month, but I didn't hear anything about the actual rules.
I'd look to Warhammer Fest for the announcement of Kill Teams date and Codex Imperial Knights on sale.
Codex Knights has a couple of weeks of releases I believe, so I'd expect pre-orders for kill team 2-3 weeks after.
I have no idea if Codex Death Watch is getting any mini support, and releases for that week might be a bit thin if it is just a codex and cards for a not particularly widely played army.
Eldarain wrote: Probably get some repackaged Primaris with DW sprue.
Pretty likely yes.
Harlequins should be released with the new webway portal model.
Either of them could also get a start collecting.
So small releases overall. Pretty easy to fit them with a big, probably single kit, release like KT.
the next boxed game coming is killteam rogue trader.
Two new factions one nurgle based and one a rogue trader kill team
Box will have contents very similar to necromunda.
I don't believe that, but I'm happy this was bumped.
Coz I got a real bad itch to build a Space Wolves Kill Team based on Primaris for size yesterday and the wait for KT rules is kiiilling me. This ruleset better be good, I have several teams made for the fan rules and some ideas I'd start working on with official rules, because people here prefer official stuff before they jump in.
the next boxed game coming is killteam rogue trader.
Two new factions one nurgle based and one a rogue trader kill team
Box will have contents very similar to necromunda.
It's so ridiculous ... but hopefully..
Damn. I really hope that unlikely happens and it is really true! Finally getting playable Rogue Traders would be a dream come true.
the next boxed game coming is killteam rogue trader.
Two new factions one nurgle based and one a rogue trader kill team
Box will have contents very similar to necromunda.
It's so ridiculous ... but hopefully..
That's because it's the usual bunch of crap from Faeit, which doesn't even slightly match up with the preview video GW showed.
If there's an inquisitor Kill Team in the book then you can probably make a rogue trader kill team based on that, but this is some incredibly lazy click bait.
the next boxed game coming is killteam rogue trader.
Two new factions one nurgle based and one a rogue trader kill team
Box will have contents very similar to necromunda.
It's so ridiculous ... but hopefully..
If this were to come true...
I'm torn between suffering through any BS is worth it if we get a Rogue Trader, versus more Nurgle is so yawn inducing that I'd rather not see a Rogue Trader than get yet more Nurgle stuff.
why would we have nurgle vs rogue trader? Wouldn't it be more interesting to see Rogue Trader vs... I dunno. Anything but nurgle?
And I love Nurgle btw. But I would imagine any rogue trader is screwed the moment they meet nurgle, because their ships will be infested, everyone will die, those that do will raise as pox-walkers, and the ship will become a plague ship, crashed into a planet to infect another population.
Genestealer cults (some cultists lead by a genestealer/broodlord), chaos cultists (figures already exist, from Dark Vengeance, lead by a chaos space marine), even xenos, would be more interesting. Orks like a good old scrap, why not Orks?
ritualnet wrote: why would we have nurgle vs rogue trader? Wouldn't it be more interesting to see Rogue Trader vs... I dunno. Anything but nurgle?
And I love Nurgle btw. But I would imagine any rogue trader is screwed the moment they meet nurgle, because their ships will be infested, everyone will die, those that do will raise as pox-walkers, and the ship will become a plague ship, crashed into a planet to infect another population.
Genestealer cults (some cultists lead by a genestealer/broodlord), chaos cultists (figures already exist, from Dark Vengeance, lead by a chaos space marine), even xenos, would be more interesting. Orks like a good old scrap, why not Orks?
Agreed.
Why not Orks? Lack of respect. Xenos would be a great choice for all that wonderfullly heretical tech that could be looted, but GW tends to be pretty unsophisticated about these things and would likely go with an overtly high tech race like Tau, Eldar or Necrons. Would take some Mek's niftiest toys to elevate Orks to that spot, and people might still just see junk tech not worth grabbing.
But of course all that relies on this rumor being somewhat related to reality, and going off of the teaser video we've seen, that's not very likely. Teaser looked a lot more like grab this unit, grab an extra elite dude, punch other guys. I'll be happy if we get a good and complete rule set out of it. Any esoteric new models are icing that I dare not hope for.
Im not attached to the Rogue Trader stuff as it was a little before my time.
Im desperate for news on KT though, a starter box like shadow war would be great, maybe even smaller scale, like a troop choice + elite choice for two factions and then some ruins. maybe a little cardboard base to play on with the full rule book.
I just really want that streamlined fast playing game with tonnes of depth that battle companies seems to be (i want to play battle companies but my GF has no interest in LOTR) so we can have some quick games after the little one is put to bed without it going all night.
A Rogue Trader game would be a great way to introduce a new alien race, as the intrepid Rogue Trader goes beyond the borders of the Imperium in search of riches to bring back.
Of course the men finds a new lethal alien race that's trying to devour them before they can get back to their ship and head towards the relative safety of Imperium space.
Could be interesting dilemma between sticking around to haul more riches off to the cargo hold or get out before it's too late.
Faeit is such garbage. As unlikely as a Rogue Trader faction making an appearance in the a possible starter set is (I think an RT faction at all is unlikely in the new KT), what makes this rumor even less likely is that Nurgle would be featured. I mean GW has shoehorned Nurgle into just about everything over the last couple years, I really doubt they would do it again. Unless of course it was easy assemble Primaris vs. easy assemble Nurgle.
Not to say I don't think an RT faction would be cool, but if a human faction is included in the starter, it would most certainly be Guard (or maybe Inquisition, but I don't think they are making new models for this game). I'm guessing it will be Space Marines vs. Chaos/Necrons/ Tau/Eldar if the starter box exists at all.
I'm really expecting this to be just a book release with maybe a few bundles of existing models released alongside of it. Especially as the book is supposed to be 200+ pages long. I'd love to be wrong though.
A Rogue Trader group would be pretty amazing, even more so if it were to act as the introduction pack of some new and fancy alien race (because Nurgle is overdone already).
I don't see it as realistic in any way though, if they were going to do RT playable groups it's more likely that'd have been done last year as part of the 30th anniversary.
Happy to be wrong though (maybe it'll be rebadged Cadian Merc/Marines vs whatever)
Rogue Traders would be awesome for KT, the perfect fit. Ive been saying it for years, along with Inquisitorial groups. GW are really missing a trick if they dont capitalize on these two iconic 40k characterisations.
Whilst we're at it id love to see Imperial citizenry/ship crew as well. Theyd be great for scenarios, conversions and could have a use in 40k games. Also more alien races could be introduced. Id love a game with a host of shipping containers, some containing xenos breeds (ala Dark Heresy) escaping during a climactic conflict between two groups
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Faeit isn't garbage anymore than Dakka is. It's a rumour aggregator site - not a rumour generator.
Ah, it's not quite the 'apples to apples' you're making it out to be though, is it?
Anyway, I don't think the particular rumor is true at all - seems overly specific in terms of army choice too.
I thought it was KT rogue trader? Potentially thats just one set. They may do other sets with different pairings in the future, specific scenarios and settings (e.g. on board an Imperial ship, on a hive fleet ship, in a necron tomb, on the rooftops in an Imperial hive, in an rctic research station, arbites precinct etc...)
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Faeit isn't garbage anymore than Dakka is. It's a rumour aggregator site - not a rumour generator.
Ah, it's not quite the 'apples to apples' you're making it out to be though, is it?
Anyway, I don't think the particular rumor is true at all - seems overly specific in terms of army choice too.
I thought it was KT rogue trader? Potentially thats just one set. They may do other sets with different pairings in the future, specific scenarios and settings (e.g. on board an Imperial ship, on a hive fleet ship, in a necron tomb, on the rooftops in an Imperial hive, in an arctic research station, arbites precinct etc...)
No interest after seeing the minis. I'm not a fan of the modern cranked up to 11 nurgle asthetics and have never been a fan of the steampunkish RT style Imperial Army figs shown there. Pass.
Are we sure this is killteam? The terrain is completely different and the minis look like they are standing on tiles designed to look like a rogue trader spaceship. It looks more like space hulk than killteam. I think they are two different products with different rule sets.
Chikout wrote: Are we sure this is killteam. The terrain is completely different and the minis look like they are standing on tiles designed to look like a rogue trader spaceship. It looks more like space hulk than killteam.
Yeah, this very much puts me in mind of one the stand alone one and done box sets thats meant to be played with just the contents in the box rather than Kill Team which is squad sized 40K.
Chikout wrote: Are we sure this is killteam. The terrain is completely different and the minis look like they are standing on tiles designed to look like a rogue trader spaceship. It looks more like space hulk than killteam.
Yeah, this very much puts me in mind of one the stand alone one and done box sets thats meant to be played with just the contents in the box rather than Kill Team which is squad sized 40K.
the first thought when I saw the pics was is this even kill team or something else entirely. Unless they are doing what they did with necromunda with underhive and gang wars this might not even be related to kill team.
If there's more info available and it is confirmed that it is not another flavour of Kill Team as mentioned earlier but a stand alone game, then it can have its own thread / have the other thread reopened again.
Only minus the excessive amount of exclamation marks, we need to ration those as they are quite expensive these days.
Necromunda looked like a board game when it was re-released as well. If this is Kill Team, I just hope we get a separate rulebook and are not forced to buy a starter set (they are nice models though).
Well gak the bed. It certainly does look more like a boxed game than the new Kill Team, but frankly I don't really care, I just want better pics of dem models.
I could see Kill team getting special warband sets(like the Necromunda gangs) that cover more niche areas of the setting that wouldn't support a full 40k army. The board tiles would make for an easily transportable and quick to set up optional battle zone.
I could see Kill team getting special warband sets(like the Necromunda gangs) that cover more niche areas of the setting that wouldn't support a full 40k arm.
I could see Kill team getting special warband sets(like the Necromunda gangs) that cover more niche areas of the setting that wouldn't support a full 40k arm.
Oh yes please GW!
That's a really good point ! So maybe Xenos Mercenaries vs Inquisition next !
On the other hand, it also may be just a board game like silver tower
I could see Kill team getting special warband sets(like the Necromunda gangs) that cover more niche areas of the setting that wouldn't support a full 40k arm.
Oh yes please GW!
That's a really good point ! So maybe Xenos Mercenaries vs Inquisition next !
On the other hand, it also may be just a board game like silver tower
Although Silver Tower models did get rules for AoS so fingers crossed.
I could see Kill team getting special warband sets(like the Necromunda gangs) that cover more niche areas of the setting that wouldn't support a full 40k arm.
Anyone else get a Carnival of Nurgle vibe from those models? Something about the masks they're all wearing, they have a "twisted jester" kind of look to them. And the big guy with the cleaver, too, and the little 'not-Nurgling' guys in masks... I don't know... I just get that "tormented circus" vibe from it all.
I had initially thought these new models were part of the rumored new Xenos race in June. Some sort of parasitic insectoid race. But Tyranids already have the whole insect thing down.
Chaos seems more likely. They remind me of the flesh and metal horrors we hear about the Iron Warriors making in Ultramarines: Dead Sky, Black Sun.
Well, color me impressed, and wrong also. These are honest RT models. That's pretty awesome GW would do something like this. I'm pretty bummed we are getting Nurgle in yet another boxed set, though to be fair until I saw all the giant insects I thought maybe they were some Haemonculi's twisted experiments (which would be much cooler). This would be a perfect setting for some Eldar Cosairs or Ork Freebootas to board a ship.
Either way, cool models, though I get the strong impression this is a board game more akin to DW: Overkill, and is not the new Kill Team.
MrVulcanator wrote: I had initially thought these new models were part of the rumored new Xenos race in June. Some sort of parasitic insectoid race. But Tyranids already have the whole insect thing down.
They don't though. Nids are dinosaurs in space. The designers have said as much several times.
The figures would be great for an Inquisition Force... It would be great if we got a new Inquisition Codex soon but given Deathwatch, Harlies and Knights are next, bets are off on that.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: Hopefully these models have some use outside whatever this boxed game is.
I bet you this is a lead up to codexes for LoTD and RT. When Killteam came out and I said deathwatch was getting a dex, everyone in my local area called me a moron.
That looks great to me. I also thing the steampunk guys are Rogue traders, not a kill team or inquisition. Love the space flies and space doberman. The chaos dudes leave me fairly cold, but with some conversion work could be fine.
Inquisitors and Rogue Traders can, more or less, go wherever and do whatever they want, with whomever they want.
I envisage a fairly hefty Codex, with a range of entries which can be opened up depending on Inquisitorial Faction and bent, or Writ of Trade?
I know it’s not terribly 8th Ed in approach, but would be a cool army!
Could easily be done with faction keywords. Give Rogue Traders and Inquisitors something like an "Agent" keyword, and have the alien mercenaries share this keyword, but not the Imperial keyword. Then they could only share a detachment with the Inquisitor/Rogue Trader.
Inquisitors and Rogue Traders can, more or less, go wherever and do whatever they want, with whomever they want.
I envisage a fairly hefty Codex, with a range of entries which can be opened up depending on Inquisitorial Faction and bent, or Writ of Trade?
I know it’s not terribly 8th Ed in approach, but would be a cool army!
Could easily be done with faction keywords. Give Rogue Traders and Inquisitors something like an "Agent" keyword, and have the alien mercenaries share this keyword, but not the Imperial keyword. Then they could only share a detachment with the Inquisitor/Rogue Trader.
I love this idea. Between freebootaz, corsairs, farsight mercs, and kroot mercs I see a lot of potential.
I think you are on to something Grotsnik. An Agents of the Imperium book with Inquisition and RTs would be fantastic.
I really do hope this game gets some expansions or continued support featuring Xenos, they really need some love. At the very least let's see some stats for them (and maybe some Inquisition) in the appendix. Assuming this isn't Kill Team that is, then I would have no idea what they would do with it. I imagine we'll get an emergency announcement tomorrow or at the very latest we'll find out at Warhammer Fest.
Yeah, new death cults or Inquisition stuff, arbites, new Eldar mercenaries, dark eldar arena freaks, squats, sisters of silence expansion, chaos cults, freebootas, kroot, exodites, hrud..
...really, anything other than yet more fugly Nurgle trash after we've had fifty six Nurgle releases in the past year would be really great for a 40k version of shadespire.
Welp, guess im a-waitin' for that rogue trader goodness to get its own sprue.
If the models were only for use on the ship board tiles they would probably be using the Necromunda bases, not the regular ones painted up with a dirt and grass combo.
GoatboyBeta wrote: If the models were only for use on the ship board tiles they would probably be using the Necromunda bases, not the regular ones painted up with a dirt and grass combo.
I'm confused is this a force for kill team or will this be a whole new box game? in which case, necromunda, kill team AND rogue trader? but why... there is such a thing as spreading yourself too thin
MrVulcanator wrote: I had initially thought these new models were part of the rumored new Xenos race in June. Some sort of parasitic insectoid race. But Tyranids already have the whole insect thing down.
They don't though. Nids are dinosaurs in space. The designers have said as much several times.
They can say what they want. I have the first edition Tyranid Warriors (from Tyranid Attack) and they have a wasp waist and a stinger. They clearly thought insect before dinosaur.
MrVulcanator wrote: I had initially thought these new models were part of the rumored new Xenos race in June. Some sort of parasitic insectoid race. But Tyranids already have the whole insect thing down.
They don't though. Nids are dinosaurs in space. The designers have said as much several times.
They can say what they want. I have the first edition Tyranid Warriors (from Tyranid Attack) and they have a wasp waist and a stinger. They clearly thought insect before dinosaur.
The Spanish site for most of the 2000's referred to them as space crustaceans, clearly GW has no idea what Nids are supposed to be.
MrVulcanator wrote: I had initially thought these new models were part of the rumored new Xenos race in June. Some sort of parasitic insectoid race. But Tyranids already have the whole insect thing down.
They don't though. Nids are dinosaurs in space. The designers have said as much several times.
They can say what they want. I have the first edition Tyranid Warriors (from Tyranid Attack) and they have a wasp waist and a stinger. They clearly thought insect before dinosaur.
They've always been a weird mix of both. The original Tyranid Warrior was basically reptilian, but when those plastic ones came out, they got … weird, with the exo-skeletal structure and exposed areas of softer tissue.
I was thinking yesterday morning that maybe the rogue trader and killteam rumors were for separate games- a shadespire kind of thing for RT and then an 8th ed port for KT. The video and the differences in play area size and accompanying graphics would support this.
I think maybe the RT game will be standalone like space hulk, whereas KT might be something that is expanded/supported a little more.
Im sure one f the killteam rumours suggested it would come on the heels of the DW codex, so maybe we'll get both a first look at the RT box and a release date for KT this weekend.
Guys, I am sure somebody pointed this earlier, but still...
There is absolutely no indications that these are NURGLE miniatures.
Firstly, there is absolutely ZERO chaos/nurgle symbols or iconography. The only markings I've found so far were far from chaotic (look at the shoulder):
Also one guys has fish literally stuck to his butt, but nurgle hasn't shown any actual animal on the miniatures so far.
Also the black "swarm" things look completely alien to nurgle design and look more like alien species rather than daemonic:
Also the whole level of cybernetic augmentations is beyond what we have seen so far. The only bionics on nurgle miniatures are found on poxwalkers in the form of cybernetic hands.
Spoiler:
While the overall color scheme and aesthetics certainly have nurglesque vibes (especcialy flies), but my bet is that this is completely different faction.
And the cybernetic heads on "nurglings" and "poxwalkers" are certainly here to obfuscate the true origin of these guys.
Slaught infestation may be?
The Slaugth possess a mastery of biomechanical technology and elemental physics which exceeds that of mankind and perhaps even the Eldar. Among their more mysterious capabilities is the capacity to travel interstellar distances without making use of the Warp. Many of their devices are actually grown or augmented pseudo-living machines which blend both flesh and metal in a functional symbiosis. Their weapons and artefacts appear as products of warp craft to the uninitiated. This keen and terrible grasp of the biosciences allows them to grow entire armies instead of training them. Their array of constructs can be adapted to serve as guards, spies and even as labourers.
And it certainly looks more like the works of the Haemunculus Coven more than the warp mutations.
Or it’s a battle between the surviving human crew of a rogue trader vessel whose servitor complement got possessed/infected with nurgle’s rot as someone else suggested in another thread.
Mr_Rose wrote: Or it’s a battle between the surviving human crew of a rogue trader vessel whose servitor complement got possessed/infected with nurgle’s rot as someone else suggested in another thread.
It is highly unlikely, cause both nurgle rot and zombie plague (which are different diseases) do not spawn those blackish creatures, nor provide meanings for cybernetic augmentations and "stitches" kind of abominations.
And possession should give at least some daemonic stuff. If those guys in the front are cybernetic plaguebearers - i am all in, but this is unlikely.
It is really hard to tell which thread will yield more fruitful discussion and I am confused. Probably mods will clear the kill team thread of this rogue trader stuff once we have more solid news.
Mr_Rose wrote: Or it’s a battle between the surviving human crew of a rogue trader vessel whose servitor complement got possessed/infected with nurgle’s rot as someone else suggested in another thread.
It is highly unlikely, cause both nurgle rot and zombie plague (which are different diseases) do not spawn those blackish creatures, nor provide meanings for cybernetic augmentations and "stitches" kind of abominations.
And possession should give at least some daemonic stuff. If those guys in the front are cybernetic plaguebearers - i am all in, but this is unlikely.
It is really hard to tell which thread will yield more fruitful discussion and I am confused. Probably mods will clear the kill team thread of this rogue trader stuff once we have more solid news.
Nurgle has (partially) demonic flies, though, and at least in AoS magical maggoths. It could be that the corrupring brush of warp power wasn't strong enough for proper possession or letting bigger demons through, but warped part of the organics on board and let the tiniest and weakest of demons through - the insects of Nurgle. Compare to the Eisenstein in the warp and Typhus sucking in demonic flies.
Malika2 wrote: Nurgle big mutants maybe? Akin to the old Lost and the Damned list. Bionics could have been added after the corruption right?
Still not 100% sure they are truly Nurgle (though clearly from the same design guys).
"Mouth guy" has no "disease stuff" whatsoever, just random mouths everywhere and a big hand.
"Tentacle guy" has some warts painted green, but appears to run a fish/scaly-theme with a hint of Fabius'/Uriens'/Frankstein's monster stiched-together-from-various-parts.
Spoiler:
Sure, they could be Nurgle, but GW's recent Nurgle stuff has been very, very, very on the nose with Nurgle, with the Nurgle-symbol appearing everywhere in warts, skulls, etc.., flies, Nurglings, as added decoration, etc..
Of course, the flies themselves in the kit look a lot more nurgly than those two.
This set, to me, looks like a great addition to a 40KRPG game system... I see a hell of a lot of great inspirations, to bring into a deathwatch campaign, an Only War campaign, and a Rogue Trader campaign. As to it's release, I'd wait till after the Knight game to come out before you hear more on this one... TO ME- all of the talk so far has it in the planning and finalization phase at this point, getting the word out to gauge peoples interest and start building up some anticipation for these guys, but not ready for release, just yet. They have a boxed game, for Rogue Trader, on par with the other boxed games... Now that it is ready, they are finalizing it, getting it ready for general release....
I hate to be the one to say it, but I like my Crow baked, with a nice chianti... I am fully on board with GW's new direction with the game sets, the game as a whole, and the flavor in which they are taking the 40K gaming. Still a bit expensive, but I'm in it for a penny, in it for a pound after being off the table for a few years, and now getting my Orks back into circulation and back in the gym to get in shape for their new codex.... THEN the GORKAMORKA talk? Yeah, I'm back.
I see myself adding in my Necromunda guys to fight some of this crazy stuff down in the Underhive, and I'm going to pick up at least 2 of these sets for the RPG value alone. From what I've seen, this looks like a good minis set for Lost and The Damned/ Realms of Chaos RPG Play, Now all you need are your D100 tables.
The only problem I have is with the expected release window. That would put Kill Team's release directly in competition with the new edtion of Age of Sigmar and the Nighthaubt battletome.
Same as Shadespire, Necromunda, and Blood Bowl competing with 40k, AoS, and eachother. GW have no problem with that so far. And lot of 40k player don't really buy any AoS stuff,
Actually having some release for 40k folks while AoS snatching the spotlight would be a great idea.
Chopstick wrote: Same as Shadespire, Necromunda, and Blood Bowl competing with 40k, AoS, and eachother. GW have no problem with that so far.
I don't mean the actual products, but the release dates. Have GW ever released two 'new' games or two separate lines of miniatures simultaneously? Would it be realistic to see Age of Sigmar 2nd edition and Kill Team go on pre-order on the very same day?
Chopstick wrote: Same as Shadespire, Necromunda, and Blood Bowl competing with 40k, AoS, and eachother. GW have no problem with that so far.
I don't mean the actual products, but the release dates. Have GW ever released two 'new' games or two separate lines of miniatures simultaneously? Would it be realistic to see Age of Sigmar 2nd edition and Kill Team go on pre-order on the very same day?
Rumblings are that AOS2E is getting a two week preorder period. I could see AOS2E and Rogue Trader/Kill Team going up week 1 and then RT/KT releasing week 2 while 2E keeps going for another week of preorders.
How are they competing? Just offers more choice, some people only play AoS or 40k. I dont play AoS, so it doesnt matter to me, ill get KT. For people who do both they may well end up getting both...
Chopstick wrote: Same as Shadespire, Necromunda, and Blood Bowl competing with 40k, AoS, and eachother. GW have no problem with that so far.
I don't mean the actual products, but the release dates. Have GW ever released two 'new' games or two separate lines of miniatures simultaneously? Would it be realistic to see Age of Sigmar 2nd edition and Kill Team go on pre-order on the very same day?
Rumblings are that AOS2E is getting a two week preorder period. I could see AOS2E and Rogue Trader/Kill Team going up week 1 and then RT/KT releasing week 2 while 2E keeps going for another week of preorders.
Aeneades wrote: Apparently at the Games Expo today it was confirmed that Rogue Trader is an expansion for the new Kill Team game with the first Kill Team releases within the next 2-3 weeks.
Expansion or starter set?
They didn’t say. Just that it was as part of Kill Team, making it sound like a series of releases. They also didn’ say released in 2-3 weeks, they said they would start talking about it on warhammer community in 2-3 weeks, so it could be a bit later than that given we have AOS2 this month
As mentioned in the other threads, that isn’t quite what they said. They said they would start talking about it in 2-3 weeks on the community site, so I would put this in on the first Saturday rest of July, otherwise it would be mentioned in this month’s WD
The only problem I have is with the expected release window. That would put Kill Team's release directly in competition with the new edtion of Age of Sigmar and the Nighthaubt battletome.
Given AoS1 was a couple of months of horrific sales for GW (so bad that 40k background sales of non-new stuff dropped) then releasing a product for the 40k crowd during 6-7 weeks of AoS releases is probably insurance. I don't think they'll need it at this point, but it's an intelligent choice and I'm not going to complain about a company minimising risks.
I'd love to see this in 2-3 weeks, but I have a feeling we'll be getting something in July. I'm really looking forward to 40k skirmish having it's own rules.
Bear in mind that GW operate a roughly 3 month window for previews. Gama was mid March, and showed Kill Team, Shadespires Magore's Fiends and named the Idoneth Deepkin.
Only Kill Team hasn't come out and the end of that window is mid june, in 2 weeks time.
This would be my guess as well, though they may be getting away from the three month preview window. With what happened with Titanicus (though that was FW), and their (February I believe) preview of Blitz Bowl and the Space Marine Board Game, which we haven't seen either of yet. I'm crossing my fingers for the first week in July though.
This would be my guess as well, though they may be getting away from the three month preview window. With what happened with Titanicus (though that was FW), and their (February I believe) preview of Blitz Bowl and the Space Marine Board Game, which we haven't seen either of yet. I'm crossing my fingers for the first week in July though.
Well they said they didn’t show the Warhounds for Titanicus at Warhammerfest because they’re out later than 3 months after the event, so they’re sticking to it for the most part.
I reckon the window will be last week of June, first week of July.
Preorder for the 9th will be Warglaives, preorder for 16th will be AoS 2.0, preorder on 30th will be Kill Team and new terrain.
I’d say that Killteam might be a way for GW to release mini-factions, boxes of 10 or so minis, to try out subfactions an brand new stuff without having to release a full army. Remember, GW is a miniature-driven company, and this would be a low risk way of testing the waters with new stuff without having to commit to s full faction release. I think it’s a great idea.
Ben2 wrote: I reckon the window will be last week of June, first week of July.
Preorder for the 9th will be Warglaives, preorder for 16th will be AoS 2.0, preorder on 30th will be Kill Team and new terrain.
Except we have the Nighthaunt battletome which GW has already stated as coming out this month...
Oguhmek wrote: I’d say that Killteam might be a way for GW to release mini-factions, boxes of 10 or so minis, to try out subfactions an brand new stuff without having to release a full army. Remember, GW is a miniature-driven company, and this would be a low risk way of testing the waters with new stuff without having to commit to s full faction release. I think it’s a great idea.
As long as the core system is as polished as Underworlds.
We really need a solid skirmish system for 40K.
I somehow doubt that a ganger is at the level of anything more than a rawIG recruit and there's almost no way that they should be able to stand up to a Space Marine.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I somehow doubt that a ganger is at the level of anything more than a rawIG recruit and there's almost no way that they should be able to stand up to a Space Marine.
Well, from a skirmish point of view a veteran gang member from necromunda would be equal to a veteran guardsmen. Necromundan regiments were know to be high utility soldiers. As bands of killers they would lack many basic soldier skills but would have learned the principles of killing others before getting killed them selves. Truth is dangerous people are dangerous. Oh, for the record, I think spacemarines are a bit easier to crack than Spyrers so if a spacemarie does desire to take a whack at a Necromunda gang he better bring his friends if he doesn't want to be recycled.
Ganger with plasma, power weapon and melta gun would have no problem blasting through any kind of armor a Guardsman had, even Power Armor. Rich ganger amass wealth and can have much better personal equipments than any IG guardsmen.
Apparently GW release half yearly numbers, not quarterly, they're probably fairly happy with how this half will end with 3 (maybe more? custodes, DOK, IDK maybe necromunda?) factions alongside model releases all selling incredibly well topped off with a gigantic boost with the imperial knights release.
Id bet they've managed to secure pretty good numbers for all 3 games systems so far this year.
So to balance it, id bet we see KT and the new AOS starter set in early July (maybe pre-orders on the 29th?) to give a massive start to the next year half.
Alternatively, they go AOS for July then go Killteam in august- one big box per month.
Either way, it might be worth looking at how they did the Kharadron stuff alongside 8th ed release and deathguard because i expect the new 40k faction will be released in a similar fashion.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I somehow doubt that a ganger is at the level of anything more than a rawIG recruit and there's almost no way that they should be able to stand up to a Space Marine.
Well, from a skirmish point of view a veteran gang member from necromunda would be equal to a veteran guardsmen. Necromundan regiments were know to be high utility soldiers. As bands of killers they would lack many basic soldier skills but would have learned the principles of killing others before getting killed them selves. Truth is dangerous people are dangerous. Oh, for the record, I think spacemarines are a bit easier to crack than Spyrers so if a spacemarie does desire to take a whack at a Necromunda gang he better bring his friends if he doesn't want to be recycled.
I don't think there is anything in the fluff that suggest a Spyrer is stronger than a Space marine.
Oguhmek wrote: I’d say that Killteam might be a way for GW to release mini-factions, boxes of 10 or so minis, to try out subfactions an brand new stuff without having to release a full army. Remember, GW is a miniature-driven company, and this would be a low risk way of testing the waters with new stuff without having to commit to s full faction release. I think it’s a great idea.
Chopstick wrote: Ganger with plasma, power weapon and melta gun would have no problem blasting through any kind of armor a Guardsman had, even Power Armor. Rich ganger amass wealth and can have much better personal equipments than any IG guardsmen.
To use an IRL analogy - a rich gang member in the USA might be able to afford a gold-plated Desert Eagle, a full-auto rifle with AP ammo, and a grenade launcher, but unless they take them entirely by surprise I'd still put money on an actual trained soldier with basic equipment tearing them to bits, nevermind if the ganger tried to take on the equivalent of Captain America wearing tank armour with an RPG-machinegun - they'd pish themselves at first sight.
Just because they can filch high tech gear from their House's assembly lines doesn't make them comparable to actual soldiers - Hives like Necromunda make a good recruiting ground for the Guard and Marine chapters, but they still have to actually be trained. Like, the top 1% of gangers might be comparable to a veteran guardsman, but aside from their gear most gangers would be on the level of a conscript that can shoot a bit straighter. The Guard aren't the Guard because they can shoot straight, the Guard are the Guard because they can shoot straight while being charged by thousands of gribbly horrors that want to eat their faces off. A ganger might think they've seen it all because they've gutted a few rival clanners and faced down some weird mutant thingie from the Sump, but put them up against a Carnifex or a mob of Boyz or a Chaos Marine and they'd curl up into a ball and go mad or run away screaming.
To use an IRL analogy - a rich gang member in the USA might be able to afford a gold-plated Desert Eagle, a full-auto rifle with AP ammo, and a grenade launcher, but unless they take them entirely by surprise I'd still put money on an actual trained soldier with basic equipment tearing them to bits, nevermind if the ganger tried to take on the equivalent of Captain America wearing tank armour with an RPG-machinegun - they'd pish themselves at first sight.
Unless you can regrow lost piece of your body in an instant, wearing Terminator armor, or have a powerful forcefield. A blast from any plasma shot would still leave a big hole in your body. With the current N17 version, Ganger can now have forcefield, servo skull, pet, which is a league better than any IG guardmen can have. They can have actual useful gear, not bling like gold-plate DE (which is a terrible/mediocre gun IRL)
Also, if some ganger survive long enough in Necromunda to be rich, afford all the gear without getting shot in the back or dagger in the throat while sleeping. That person should give any fighter a run for their money.
I actually think a well trained soldier should (and always) have the element of surprised over the ganger : HQ com, intel, radar and various scanner. In a straight up fight with no prep the risk is too high (plasma shot to the face)
Ganger also lack knowledge of vehicle combat, big scale battle, and xenos.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I somehow doubt that a ganger is at the level of anything more than a rawIG recruit and there's almost no way that they should be able to stand up to a Space Marine.
Well, from a skirmish point of view a veteran gang member from necromunda would be equal to a veteran guardsmen. Necromundan regiments were know to be high utility soldiers. As bands of killers they would lack many basic soldier skills but would have learned the principles of killing others before getting killed them selves. Truth is dangerous people are dangerous. Oh, for the record, I think spacemarines are a bit easier to crack than Spyrers so if a spacemarie does desire to take a whack at a Necromunda gang he better bring his friends if he doesn't want to be recycled.
I don't think there is anything in the fluff that suggest a Spyrer is stronger than a Space marine.
The Spyer hunting rig, their armor, is way more advanced than the Astartes regular Mks of power armor. Integrated weapon systems, stealth systems, flight systems repair and autonomous upgrades. Looking at the stat lines for the day a novice Spyer is almost the equal of a century old battle brother. An experienced Spyer is short of, say a chapter master in terminator armor, but way more versatile and capable than the average space marine captain.
For the record, Spyer armor was most likely made with Tau, and eldar technology. Even the names line up with Tau suits. Reeks of Heresy.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I somehow doubt that a ganger is at the level of anything more than a rawIG recruit and there's almost no way that they should be able to stand up to a Space Marine.
Well, from a skirmish point of view a veteran gang member from necromunda would be equal to a veteran guardsmen. Necromundan regiments were know to be high utility soldiers. As bands of killers they would lack many basic soldier skills but would have learned the principles of killing others before getting killed them selves. Truth is dangerous people are dangerous. Oh, for the record, I think spacemarines are a bit easier to crack than Spyrers so if a spacemarie does desire to take a whack at a Necromunda gang he better bring his friends if he doesn't want to be recycled.
I don't think there is anything in the fluff that suggest a Spyrer is stronger than a Space marine.
The Spyer hunting rig, their armor, is way more advanced than the Astartes regular Mks of power armor. Integrated weapon systems, stealth systems, flight systems repair and autonomous upgrades. Looking at the stat lines for the day a novice Spyer is almost the equal of a century old battle brother. An experienced Spyer is short of, say a chapter master in terminator armor, but way more versatile and capable than the average space marine captain.
For the record, Spyer armor was most likely made with Tau, and eldar technology. Even the names line up with Tau suits. Reeks of Heresy.
For the record, Spyrer suits were only ever rumoured to be created with Xenotech, and their names don’t match any T’au suits; they sort-of-match some T’au words that are translated with English meanings that sort-of-resemble the overall theme of the suits. Never mind that the most advanced T’au battlesuit, the prototype worn by Shadowsun, is only just on par with an Orrus suit and the T’au have never been shown to have nanotechnology self-repair mechanisms, are only just showing reflecting-shield tech, have no inclination whatsoever towards hand to hand, and would generally prefer to sell a rogue governor some knockoff lasguns than actually let him have their shiny toys, much less collaborate with a bunch of humans on a ‘loyal’ planet thousands of light years away from the furthest extent of their empire, centuries before they even had an empire.
Overall, if there is any xeno influence in the Spyrer suits, it’s much more likely to be an older empire that had at least galaxy-spanning influence, if not galactic reach, possibly one which has already been shown to have absurd hypertechnology and uses both nanites and self-repair on the battlefield, who could have influenced both the T’au language and whatever form of Low Gothic is spoken on Necromunda.
Or the Van Saar make them using their cursed STC as a bribe to keep the few upper-spire types who have found out about it from blabbing to the Adeptus Mechanicus…
To use an IRL analogy - a rich gang member in the USA might be able to afford a gold-plated Desert Eagle, a full-auto rifle with AP ammo, and a grenade launcher, but unless they take them entirely by surprise I'd still put money on an actual trained soldier with basic equipment tearing them to bits, nevermind if the ganger tried to take on the equivalent of Captain America wearing tank armour with an RPG-machinegun - they'd pish themselves at first sight.
Unless you can regrow lost piece of your body in an instant, wearing Terminator armor, or have a powerful forcefield. A blast from any plasma shot would still leave a big hole in your body.
And if the ganger can actually reform their bowels long enough to shoot that plasma gun in the vague direction of the 7+ foot tall walking tank charging at them out of myth wielding a five foot long roaring chainsaw while unleashing a diaphragm-shaking vox-amplified predator roar and letting rip with a handgun that's exploding dinner plate-sized holes in the surrounding scenery and said ganger's comrades, they might actually be able to put a big hole in the Marine's body, but odds are they'd still be gormlessly standing there widdling themselves when their torso got chewed in half
Now, they might be more confident and trigger happy if facing down mere Imperial Guardsmen, and in their own element(ie jumping out of a slimy shadow in the depths of the underhive to stick a knife in their unsuspecting enemy's spine) they might even be a better fighter 1v1, but considered as a whole in a straight-up fight the soldiers of most Guard regiments would put down even an experienced ganger before they knew what was happening.
Something people need to remember - and this applies to the Spyrers v Marines thing as well - is that the statlines aren't directly comparable between 40K and Necromunda(or WHFB and Mordheim). The 1-10 stats with D6s basis for GW games simply doesn't have enough fidelity to meaningfully distinguish between all the levels of competence between some workaday shlub Administratum office worker and a trained professional soldier while also including stuff like Space Marines and Eldar and superheavy tanks, so everything gets compressed in 40K and that's doubly true since they switched to the X+ method for some stats, but that's not the case in Necromunda. Think about it this way - the whole range of stats in Necromunda represents something like the gap between a Conscript and a Guard Veteran in 40K. Like, maybe an all top-end stats with tons of gear and special rules would be adequate to represent a regular Marine. Maybe. How many gangers could stand against an enemy like that?
Gangs in Necromunda can get all sorts of crazy gear and weapons that your average Guardsmen could only dream of, but they're primarily status symbols. Like some Joe Bloggs who wins the lottery could buy an incredible sports car, that doesn't mean they could beat a professional racecar driver unless you put the latter in a battered old Lada or something.
I fear you credit your standard Guardsman with too much training!
A Veteran, yes. Tempestus Scions, yes. But Guardsman Bob? About the only difference between us and them is they've actually been told which end of the Lasgun is which - we just had to work it out for ourself.
That wouldn't be Guardsman Bob, that would be Conscript Bob.
As much as people love to meme them, the normal Guardsmen, like Cadian guardsmen, are all of them highly trained soldiers with very good equipement (Its only "bad" in comparison with the rest of the setting)
I imagine that a lot of the training for Necromundan PDF and inducted Astra Militarum regiments involves getting them to all shoot at the enemy, and not at the other squad because that sergeant was a rival gang leader, and to get them to all do what they're told, when they're told to do it, all at once.
The implication from the Armageddon fluff is that gang fighters are better than standard conscripts, and can basically be recruited straight into the IG. I suspect this is not entirely true, because however lethal a gang fighter is in one-on-one and small skimishes, working together as a disciplined team is the most important part of soldiering.
Gang fighters probably need no combat training, just training in team work, discipline and following orders. I don't see their morale as being especially worse than the majority of other Guardsmen when facing the horrors of the Galaxy- the underhive is already shown to basically be a death world beneath the hive.
Basically, I think only juves would be equivalent to conscripts, and most gangers would be equivalent to guardsmen (with minimal additional training). I doubt many would be better than that.
To use an IRL analogy - a rich gang member in the USA might be able to afford a gold-plated Desert Eagle, a full-auto rifle with AP ammo, and a grenade launcher, but unless they take them entirely by surprise I'd still put money on an actual trained soldier with basic equipment tearing them to bits, nevermind if the ganger tried to take on the equivalent of Captain America wearing tank armour with an RPG-machinegun - they'd pish themselves at first sight.
Unless you can regrow lost piece of your body in an instant, wearing Terminator armor, or have a powerful forcefield. A blast from any plasma shot would still leave a big hole in your body.
And if the ganger can actually reform their bowels long enough to shoot that plasma gun in the vague direction of the 7+ foot tall walking tank charging at them out of myth wielding a five foot long roaring chainsaw while unleashing a diaphragm-shaking vox-amplified predator roar and letting rip with a handgun that's exploding dinner plate-sized holes in the surrounding scenery and said ganger's comrades, they might actually be able to put a big hole in the Marine's body, but odds are they'd still be gormlessly standing there widdling themselves when their torso got chewed in half
Now, they might be more confident and trigger happy if facing down mere Imperial Guardsmen, and in their own element(ie jumping out of a slimy shadow in the depths of the underhive to stick a knife in their unsuspecting enemy's spine) they might even be a better fighter 1v1, but considered as a whole in a straight-up fight the soldiers of most Guard regiments would put down even an experienced ganger before they knew what was happening.
Something people need to remember - and this applies to the Spyrers v Marines thing as well - is that the statlines aren't directly comparable between 40K and Necromunda(or WHFB and Mordheim). The 1-10 stats with D6s basis for GW games simply doesn't have enough fidelity to meaningfully distinguish between all the levels of competence between some workaday shlub Administratum office worker and a trained professional soldier while also including stuff like Space Marines and Eldar and superheavy tanks, so everything gets compressed in 40K and that's doubly true since they switched to the X+ method for some stats, but that's not the case in Necromunda. Think about it this way - the whole range of stats in Necromunda represents something like the gap between a Conscript and a Guard Veteran in 40K. Like, maybe an all top-end stats with tons of gear and special rules would be adequate to represent a regular Marine. Maybe. How many gangers could stand against an enemy like that?
Gangs in Necromunda can get all sorts of crazy gear and weapons that your average Guardsmen could only dream of, but they're primarily status symbols. Like some Joe Bloggs who wins the lottery could buy an incredible sports car, that doesn't mean they could beat a professional racecar driver unless you put the latter in a battered old Lada or something.
Space Marines are vastly overrated. They're (relatively) mass produced propaganda weapons. Read some Abnett books for a reasonable look at how well they fare against rich (heretical) weirdos with money to burn on expensive weapons. Marines are scary but they're hardly that OTT. And the necromunda stats are comparable to 40k. Just compare Necro Ogryn vs 40k Ogryn, for example.
To use an IRL analogy - a rich gang member in the USA might be able to afford a gold-plated Desert Eagle, a full-auto rifle with AP ammo, and a grenade launcher, but unless they take them entirely by surprise I'd still put money on an actual trained soldier with basic equipment tearing them to bits, nevermind if the ganger tried to take on the equivalent of Captain America wearing tank armour with an RPG-machinegun - they'd pish themselves at first sight.
Unless you can regrow lost piece of your body in an instant, wearing Terminator armor, or have a powerful forcefield. A blast from any plasma shot would still leave a big hole in your body.
And if the ganger can actually reform their bowels long enough to shoot that plasma gun in the vague direction of the 7+ foot tall walking tank charging at them out of myth wielding a five foot long roaring chainsaw while unleashing a diaphragm-shaking vox-amplified predator roar and letting rip with a handgun that's exploding dinner plate-sized holes in the surrounding scenery and said ganger's comrades, they might actually be able to put a big hole in the Marine's body, but odds are they'd still be gormlessly standing there widdling themselves when their torso got chewed in half
Now, they might be more confident and trigger happy if facing down mere Imperial Guardsmen, and in their own element(ie jumping out of a slimy shadow in the depths of the underhive to stick a knife in their unsuspecting enemy's spine) they might even be a better fighter 1v1, but considered as a whole in a straight-up fight the soldiers of most Guard regiments would put down even an experienced ganger before they knew what was happening.
Something people need to remember - and this applies to the Spyrers v Marines thing as well - is that the statlines aren't directly comparable between 40K and Necromunda(or WHFB and Mordheim). The 1-10 stats with D6s basis for GW games simply doesn't have enough fidelity to meaningfully distinguish between all the levels of competence between some workaday shlub Administratum office worker and a trained professional soldier while also including stuff like Space Marines and Eldar and superheavy tanks, so everything gets compressed in 40K and that's doubly true since they switched to the X+ method for some stats, but that's not the case in Necromunda. Think about it this way - the whole range of stats in Necromunda represents something like the gap between a Conscript and a Guard Veteran in 40K. Like, maybe an all top-end stats with tons of gear and special rules would be adequate to represent a regular Marine. Maybe. How many gangers could stand against an enemy like that?
Gangs in Necromunda can get all sorts of crazy gear and weapons that your average Guardsmen could only dream of, but they're primarily status symbols. Like some Joe Bloggs who wins the lottery could buy an incredible sports car, that doesn't mean they could beat a professional racecar driver unless you put the latter in a battered old Lada or something.
Space Marines are vastly overrated. They're (relatively) mass produced propaganda weapons. Read some Abnett books for a reasonable look at how well they fare against rich (heretical) weirdos with money to burn on expensive weapons. Marines are scary but they're hardly that OTT. And the necromunda stats are comparable to 40k. Just compare Necro Ogryn vs 40k Ogryn, for example.
Abnett does a lot of great stuff, his version of Space Marines do not qualify. I mean seriously, I don't know how it's possible to "vastly overrate" a 7+ foot tall genetically engineered superhuman that can shatter a human's ribcage with a backhand, not only survive but keep fighting after having entire limbs blown off, with the reflexes of a champion gymnast, encased in powered armour that can reliably withstand anti-tank weaponry and which further enhances their strength, wielding weapons specifically designed to cause maximum terror among lesser troops. The limitation on Space Marines was always supposed to be "there aren't many of them", not Abnett's neutered versions that only ever show up to make the protagonists look good - his Marines are every bit as bad as the caricature "bumbling cowards with flashlights" version of the Guard used by the shoddier Marine fiction writers.
I think its maybe relevant to also mention that Astartes seem to produce an nascent dread in humans and similar organics. Its mentioned several times in the novels and lore.
Regardless of stats, the first thing the gangers have to do is rally and overcome that 'trans-human dread' i think it's called.
streetsamurai wrote: I don't think there is anything in the fluff that suggest a Spyrer is stronger than a Space marine.
Fluff, don't know. Rules...a maxed out Orrus swipes the floor with Tactical Marines in Oldcrowmunda. Straight 2E 40K and both have stats in the big book.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I somehow doubt that a ganger is at the level of anything more than a rawIG recruit and there's almost no way that they should be able to stand up to a Space Marine.
Well, from a skirmish point of view a veteran gang member from necromunda would be equal to a veteran guardsmen. Necromundan regiments were know to be high utility soldiers. As bands of killers they would lack many basic soldier skills but would have learned the principles of killing others before getting killed them selves. Truth is dangerous people are dangerous. Oh, for the record, I think spacemarines are a bit easier to crack than Spyrers so if a spacemarie does desire to take a whack at a Necromunda gang he better bring his friends if he doesn't want to be recycled.
I don't think there is anything in the fluff that suggest a Spyrer is stronger than a Space marine.
The Spyer hunting rig, their armor, is way more advanced than the Astartes regular Mks of power armor. Integrated weapon systems, stealth systems, flight systems repair and autonomous upgrades. Looking at the stat lines for the day a novice Spyer is almost the equal of a century old battle brother. An experienced Spyer is short of, say a chapter master in terminator armor, but way more versatile and capable than the average space marine captain.
For the record, Spyer armor was most likely made with Tau, and eldar technology. Even the names line up with Tau suits. Reeks of Heresy.
For the record, Spyrer suits were only ever rumoured to be created with Xenotech, and their names don’t match any T’au suits; they sort-of-match some T’au words that are translated with English meanings that sort-of-resemble the overall theme of the suits. Never mind that the most advanced T’au battlesuit, the prototype worn by Shadowsun, is only just on par with an Orrus suit and the T’au have never been shown to have nanotechnology self-repair mechanisms, are only just showing reflecting-shield tech, have no inclination whatsoever towards hand to hand, and would generally prefer to sell a rogue governor some knockoff lasguns than actually let him have their shiny toys, much less collaborate with a bunch of humans on a ‘loyal’ planet thousands of light years away from the furthest extent of their empire, centuries before they even had an empire.
Overall, if there is any xeno influence in the Spyrer suits, it’s much more likely to be an older empire that had at least galaxy-spanning influence, if not galactic reach, possibly one which has already been shown to have absurd hypertechnology and uses both nanites and self-repair on the battlefield, who could have influenced both the T’au language and whatever form of Low Gothic is spoken on Necromunda.
Or the Van Saar make them using their cursed STC as a bribe to keep the few upper-spire types who have found out about it from blabbing to the Adeptus Mechanicus…
That's why I said made with Tau and eldar tech. (Guess could be Necron?) They used crystals in some of their equipment and eldar/ dark eldar tech could cover some of the shields tech. Direct trade with the Tau, no. But I don't think it's a coincidence that the names are variations used by the Tau. Some other common link? It's a mystery, and I hope it stays that way.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Neronoxx wrote: I think its maybe relevant to also mention that Astartes seem to produce an nascent dread in humans and similar organics. Its mentioned several times in the novels and lore.
Regardless of stats, the first thing the gangers have to do is rally and overcome that 'trans-human dread' i think it's called.
Trans human dread eh? Just like when the gangers decide it would be fun to boost an Eldars diplomats ride for a quick run around the ash waste, or the following encounter with an irate Farseer,
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another way to look at the comparison of guard to Necromundian hanger is think of the gangs as the PDF of the Under-hive. The history of the imperial guard is filled with regiments who stood fast defending their homeworld from all sorts xenos threats from Orks to Alien empires prior to an IG founding. The core of a Necromunda gangers life is functionally that of a squad level trooper, employing squad level tactics and strategies for offenses, defense and reconnaissance. Compare the founding of a regiment from Tanith, where the average conscript was a farmer(if I remembered correctly), to a conscript from the underhive whom was raised in a world of perpetual violence. The real sticking point is what would a Necromunda gang be doing on a kill team type mission off of Necromunda? The answer is easy, surviving exile as an outlaw gang working for whomever could get them off the spire. Cause being outlawed sucks donkey balls.
Insurgency Walker wrote: The real sticking point is what would a Necromunda gang be doing on a kill team type mission off of Necromunda? The answer is easy, surviving exile as an outlaw gang working for whomever could get them off the spire. Cause being outlawed sucks donkey balls.
"Today, wanted by the Inquisition, they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire... the N-Team."
Yodhrin wrote: Abnett does a lot of great stuff, his version of Space Marines do not qualify. I mean seriously, I don't know how it's possible to "vastly overrate" a 7+ foot tall genetically engineered superhuman that can shatter a human's ribcage with a backhand, not only survive but keep fighting after having entire limbs blown off, with the reflexes of a champion gymnast, encased in powered armour that can reliably withstand anti-tank weaponry and which further enhances their strength, wielding weapons specifically designed to cause maximum terror among lesser troops. The limitation on Space Marines was always supposed to be "there aren't many of them", not Abnett's neutered versions that only ever show up to make the protagonists look good - his Marines are every bit as bad as the caricature "bumbling cowards with flashlights" version of the Guard used by the shoddier Marine fiction writers.
I have read his Brothers of the Snake. I wouldn't call any of the space marines depicted there as overrated, myself.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I somehow doubt that a ganger is at the level of anything more than a rawIG recruit and there's almost no way that they should be able to stand up to a Space Marine.
It's problematic...
One could argue that the underhive is a uniquely harsh environment which also has easy access to archeotech and high end manufacturing making the Necromunda ganger a well-honed killing machine with well-made gear.
OR that they're a bunch of malnourished, diseased morons with guns made out of garbage.
Basically it's a question of who's starring in the story.
Batman can always beat Superman, as long as it's in his own comic
Copious quantities of Orks. As NPCs for purge missions. To say that I disagreed with the "back of the big 'ol book" conversion rate for 40k stuff is an understatement - It was nonsense. You have to keep Strength and Toughness, as they're based largely on how hard bits of technology hit, but that was about it.
My starting assumption was that a Hive Ganger could generally be recruited straight into the PDF with minimal training and a whole lot of discipline, probably involving commissars. Also a lot of work teaching people to shoot weapons at distances of over about 50m, on the basis that the Underhive is so congested that you'll rarely get to fire further than that. Hardened hive gangers are going to be more skilled, and more savage, than the majority of the PDF recruits looking for a life beyond the factory floor, and this also means that sending the PDF in to gang territory is by no means a one sided fight for the troopies - they're well equipped and disciplined, but up against folk who are equally skilled but with home turf advantage.
So troopers rocked up with a Lasgun, Lasspistol, knife, Flak, BS 4, WS 4, Marksman, Rapid Fire and a few other skills. Definitely better than raw gangers, but not by a huge amount.
This is where you have to decompress the 40k stats. So I worked on the basis that S and T, and possibly I, were OK but that 40kBS/WS 3 equated to Necromunda BS/WS 3-5, 40kBS/WS 4 equated to Necro BS/WS 6-8 and 40kBS/WS 5+ equated to Necro BS/WS 9. So a Marine would likely be BS/WS 8, while a really veteran guardsman would be BS/WS 6.
This worked OK, but the real kicker was skills. Marines got heaps of them. Orks got every skill which made them harder to kill, plus ferocity. That seemed to put it on about the right power level - anything from outside the underhive would be horrific to face.
I don't think Necromunda is representative of hive worlds and gangers across the Imperium either. Necromunda is a survivor of the Age of Strife, and controlled an interstellar empire prior to being brought into compliance (and then nearly destroyed by some unknown xenos). It actually probably had a larger population prior to these events than it does now- the entire planet was a city, not just the surviving hives. The planet is also based in Segmentum Solar and has remained important since the Great Crusade. It seems to have one of the highest populations in the entire Imperium.
Therefore I reckon Necromunda has a hell of a lot more access to rare and esoteric equipment than most hive worlds even, as it has equipment predating the Great Crusade hidden in the depths of the hives and beneath the ash wastes, and the noble houses are especially influential. This technological prowess has manifested in Necromunda producing some very advanced gear of the kind typically associated with forge worlds, like plasma weaponry. It stands to reason that Necromunda also has unusually heavily-armed gangers too. Necromunda is almost like a deregulated minor forge world.
Contrast this with Armageddon, another massive Segmentum Solar hive world which is known for producing Chimera and Leman Russ based vehicles, and autoguns (and probably lasguns). None of that is especially advanced by Imperial standards, they are mass-produced stuff for the Imperial Guard/PDFs. There is no indication they have the complex web of advanced industries found on Necromunda, with a multitude of advanced chemicals, high-powered weaponry and technical gear like the Van Saar hacker noodles.
Something worthy of note is how the current edition is handling gangs for necromunda. These aren't just naturally formed gangs, these are effectively deniable house enforcers with largely free reign over what they do.
That gives a lot more leeway in supply and ability than 'ooh look I found a stubber and I'm a gang now' than people assume.
Yodhrin wrote: Abnett does a lot of great stuff, his version of Space Marines do not qualify. I mean seriously, I don't know how it's possible to "vastly overrate" a 7+ foot tall genetically engineered superhuman that can shatter a human's ribcage with a backhand, not only survive but keep fighting after having entire limbs blown off, with the reflexes of a champion gymnast, encased in powered armour that can reliably withstand anti-tank weaponry and which further enhances their strength, wielding weapons specifically designed to cause maximum terror among lesser troops. The limitation on Space Marines was always supposed to be "there aren't many of them", not Abnett's neutered versions that only ever show up to make the protagonists look good - his Marines are every bit as bad as the caricature "bumbling cowards with flashlights" version of the Guard used by the shoddier Marine fiction writers.
I have read his Brothers of the Snake. I wouldn't call any of the space marines depicted there as overrated, myself.
Ah, good point!
I know many don't like that story, but I rather do like it, and it certainly shows the power of a single Space Marine - certainly!
Chopstick wrote: With the current N17 version, Ganger can now have forcefield, servo skull, pet, which is a league better than any IG guardmen can have.
Well guardmen can have basilisk tank, ganger can't beat basilisk tanks as cool wargear can they .
Must admit the Basilisk is cool kit. But I want to know what those convoy outriders drive. Plus what sort of cool rides the rogue trader will have access to.
Insurgency Walker wrote: Must admit the Basilisk is cool kit. But I want to know what those convoy outriders drive. Plus what sort of cool rides the rogue trader will have access to.
If you're referring to the ones from Abnett's Tanith books, it was supposed to be some kind of quad bike/dune buggy stylized ride with a forward facing fixed weapon.
Can't find it now, but there was mention of the ash waste and vehicles as something they wanted to explore. I'm hoping for the Eye of Selune as a setting too.
Chopstick wrote: Unless you can regrow lost piece of your body in an instant, wearing Terminator armor, or have a powerful forcefield. A blast from any plasma shot would still leave a big hole in your body. With the current N17 version, Ganger can now have forcefield, servo skull, pet, which is a league better than any IG guardmen can have. They can have actual useful gear, not bling like gold-plate DE (which is a terrible/mediocre gun IRL)
Wrong. You're assuming the plasma gun would magically hit the target. Unless the ganger is lying in ambush, first attempt of drawing the gun will end with SM sensors identifying it as biggest threat, and SM casually aiming at ganger's head and blowing it up before the target even has time to blink. Astartes are supposed to be inhumanly fast and accurate (sadly, a lot of BL authors forgets that part, with especially ludicrous example found in that recent Phil Kelly's execrable fanfiction-of-a-series that has Tau of all things being Astartes' equals in close quarters) and they will always aim and shoot faster than any ganger, with properly maintained and zeroed gun at that. Even if SM had a laspistol, or hell, even a rock, I'd bet on him vs any ganger any time.
You're also assuming that gang plasma guns are equal to military ones, instead of being flashy junk that yes, will penetrate a wall or enemy ganger, but might just splash off SM pauldron. After all, if you don't need that killing power 95% of the time, why waste rare ammo and wear out mechanisms you can't even start to think how to repair? In 40K, military plasma has two settings, and I'd bet Necromundan guns are dialed down to far below even 'normal' tabletop setting only having superficially the same number because gang wars use much more granular system. They should also be weaker because, frankly speaking, they are tiny compared to military models so unless Necromunda somehow magically produces stuff well beyond things SM and IG have, their guns will simply not have same stopping power anyway...
Haighus wrote: Basically, I think only juves would be equivalent to conscripts, and most gangers would be equivalent to guardsmen (with minimal additional training). I doubt many would be better than that.
Juves? Try veteran gangers. Seriously, unlike what Hollywood would like to tell you, conscripts get proper gun training, with properly maintained brand new (or at least refurbished) guns that expert will show them how to zero in and teach how to shoot - and lasgun will be inherently far easier to aim than any stub crap gangers use. It's difference between being taught by master and being self-taught - the difference in speed and quality of learned skills will be so big it's not even funny.
It is well illustrated in say Cain books - while professional PDF would effortlessly beat gangers, IG troopers effortlessly beat PDF every time they fight them in Cain stories, without exception. Even when said PDF has inhuman boosts from Chaos magic or genestealer mutations. I agree with Galas, memeing is just dumb seeing IG tithes are supposed to be 10% of the best human material PDF has. IG is equivalent of special forces in Earth's terms, with IG veterans being on the level of SAS or Alfa (in fact, tithe of best human intake is how Soviet Spetsnaz was recruited during the Cold War). Compare them to malnourished gangers living in toxic environment and tell me they even remotely comparable with a straight face.
Yawn. Let's see at the scenario you postulate in BL book, then? In The Traitor's Hand, Cain, a protagonist veteran noted to be one of the best human duelists in the Imperium, Jurgen, a veteran trooper (who book before dispatched and killed multiple orks alone, on his own, and faced literally every single threat a galaxy has to offer), and a squad of veteran troopers from Valhallan regiment face a single Chaos Marine (who is weakened by multiple wounds and a blank suppressing his boons). And guess what, that single CSM nearly paints the walls with them as none of them can get a single telling shot in before CSM reaches them and it takes Cain fighting really hard, defensively, to buy a few moments for Jurgen to get a melta shot into CSM back, killing him. Had it been someone of even slightly smaller skill, the CSM would have won.
So, yeah, unless you double down on being wrong and postulate something as laughable as gangers being better than veteran commissar, yeah, we dismissed that claim
In fact, The Traitor's Hand has even better example for you. In the end of the book, five CSM goes into hive-like structure defended by hundreds of slaaneshi cultists and PDF troopers. With everything - psykers, plasma guns, military weapons, the whole shebang. CSM don't care and simply slaughter them all, ambushes and heavy weapons notwithstanding, losing only two CSM, and the cultists manage to win only because a handful of remaining ones finally finished ritual summoning daemon princess of slaanesh (who then proceeds to kill remaining CSM). So, yeah. Care to present anything supporting uber-gangers fantasies, either from RL or 40K canon?
It is as if power level in Warhammer 40k is highly inconsistent and change from author to author... with even good authors that respect the lore having different visions on that front..
Galas wrote: It is as if power level in Warhammer 40k is highly inconsistent and change from author to author... with even good authors that respect the lore having different visions on that front..
That doesn't make it impossible to draw a reasonable conclusion from the lore taken as a whole, outliers included, and while I wouldn't cite the Cain novels which are supposed to be the recalled memoirs of a notoriously dishonest egotist, broadly speaking the idea that the vast majority of hive gangers would be PDF(in their own territory) or sub-PDF(anywhere else) quality troops is entirely reasonable. The idea that a Space Marine would handily best even a large number of PDF or sub-PDF quality troops is similarly uncontroversial. Giving all of those troops big flashy guns and refractors would certainly increase their chances in a strictly "maybe they roll a 6 and take the Marine/Guardsman's head off before they can react" kind of way, but having a plasmagun isn't much use if you get a hole punched through your chest as soon as you try to fire it.
As someone mentioned though, the gangs on Necromunda at least, and likely gangs in other large hive worlds, are not gangs in the traditional sense of the word, but rather deniable paramilitary forces that operate in a kind of permanent proxy insurgency beneath the hive. Occasionally they are used to attack a rival house directly, a notorious example being the Delaque attack on the Orlocks causing intervention from House Helmawr before a true war broke out.
Therefore a better comparison would be the insurgencies of today, and examples like the Indochina wars against the French, the Vietnam war, the Afghanistan wars (against the Soviets especially), Chechen war, the IRA (this one is fringe, but I'm not getting into the politics), various other insurgencies such as the successful campaigns in Latin America, the resistance forces across occupied Europe in WWII, notably the Yugoslavs, and various other proxy wars.
Most of these are characterised by a powerful invader/occupier being slowed or stymied (or in some cases, full-on defeated) by a nominally weak force covertly equipped (and sometimes trained) by another foreign power. They can tie up considerable resources, and can have surprisingly effective troops in some circumstances.
The gangs of Necromunda are similar- they are equipped by massive industrial conglomerates, and in a constant proxy war beneath the hive.
Now, without training these units are often subpar, but the Chechen war is a good example of what happens when poorly trained conscripts face determined resistance by effective insurgents, even with an equipment advantage on behalf of the conscripts- a lot of casualties.
Of course, if insurgents stand and fight in a conventional battle, they tend to get mulched, but that is kind of the point of asymmetrical warfare- to minimise the strengths of a more powerful enemy.
Therefore, I rest my case that with a minimal amount of induction training (similar to other conscripted recruits), gangers would be above regular conscripts, and generally equivalent to guardsmen (although less disciplined). They would make excellent light infantry, especially in dense terrain, and would be most suited to asymmetrical warfare in support of the main forces. This is supported by GW, who made a datasheet for recruited Armageddon gangers that basically had them as less disciplined guardsmen, if I remember correctly.
This is based upon the assumption that conscripts get some training. Based on the experiences of real-world conscripts in the World Wars, they did, it was just less than regulars.
As for Marines, I am inclined to go with the Guilliman quote:
"I would rather a hundred Marines than a thousand other men."
I take this as Marines roughly being equivalent to ten humans each, but this is also at a strategic level, not just a tactical one. 100 Marines can choose where to fight and what enemy to target in a way few human forces can even come close to, so they have a massive force multiplier in their strategic mobility.
Galas wrote: It is as if power level in Warhammer 40k is highly inconsistent and change from author to author... with even good authors that respect the lore having different visions on that front..
That doesn't make it impossible to draw a reasonable conclusion from the lore taken as a whole, outliers included, and while I wouldn't cite the Cain novels which are supposed to be the recalled memoirs of a notoriously dishonest egotist, broadly speaking the idea that the vast majority of hive gangers would be PDF(in their own territory) or sub-PDF(anywhere else) quality troops is entirely reasonable. The idea that a Space Marine would handily best even a large number of PDF or sub-PDF quality troops is similarly uncontroversial. Giving all of those troops big flashy guns and refractors would certainly increase their chances in a strictly "maybe they roll a 6 and take the Marine/Guardsman's head off before they can react" kind of way, but having a plasmagun isn't much use if you get a hole punched through your chest as soon as you try to fire it.
Oh yeah, I agree, and I believe that everybody that knows his lore and hasn't just read 4chan wiki would agree. But is when you enter in the details that everybody disagree. All agree that a Space Marine is much superior than a normal human (Unless you are one of those "thats just imperial propaganda space marine don't even exist" kind of guy), but then you compare a Space Marihe with a veteran Karskrin with a plasma... or a Space Marine with an Aspect Warrior, and is when things start to get muddy.
Mysterio wrote: The Return of Kill-Team doesn't just bring the good (actual news and rumors!), but...everything else too.
Grin and bear it baby!
This is my fault for suggesting that you could use AM kill team rules to represent a Necromunda gang in kill team.
Funny that when playing kill team I have been using Tau, when people assumed I'd play guard ( using old Necromunda figures) which get peppered throughout my guard army anyway. As can been seen in my gallery.
On the subject of the Cain novels. I love them. I think anyone who plays IG love the Cain novels, but they are comedy!
So it looks like the preorder for AOS 2.0 is going up on the 16th, which I'm guessing means 2 weeks of preorders and a release on the 30th. I have an inkling KT will go on preorder on the 30th, considering we'll be seeing previews in 2ish weeks.
Sabotage! wrote: So it looks like the preorder for AOS 2.0 is going up on the 16th, which I'm guessing means 2 weeks of preorders and a release on the 30th. I have an inkling KT will go on preorder on the 30th, considering we'll be seeing previews in 2ish weeks.
From previously in this thread...
Ghaz wrote: Except we have the Nighthaunt battletome which GW has already stated as coming out this month...
Haighus wrote: As someone mentioned though, the gangs on Necromunda at least, and likely gangs in other large hive worlds, are not gangs in the traditional sense of the word, but rather deniable paramilitary forces that operate in a kind of permanent proxy insurgency beneath the hive. Occasionally they are used to attack a rival house directly, a notorious example being the Delaque attack on the Orlocks causing intervention from House Helmawr before a true war broke out.
This. To say the average guardsman could best the average Necromundan Ganger...?
Eh... maybe? But keep this in mind:
Gangers can get carapace armor.
Gangers have access to nearly every weapon that the guard has, short of vehicles.
Gangers can actually get weapons the guardsman CAN'T.
Gangers aren't street hoodlums, as said- they're pretty much 'house militia'.
A guardsman may be trained, but Gangers have been fighting and surviving gang wars since childhood
Overall, if you're going to say a Necromunda ganger can't compete on par with anything in the 40k universe- remember that we have a basis to compare: Genestealer Cults and Chaos Cults. If any of those things can kill a Space Marine or Guardsman (they can), then a ganger certainly can.
Now, would gangers be ideal to use as a regimented 'hold the line' force? Not really, that'd take training. But if you wanted a guerilla-style unit that excels in close quarters urban warfare and ambush attacks? They'd be ideal recruits.
Sabotage! wrote: So it looks like the preorder for AOS 2.0 is going up on the 16th, which I'm guessing means 2 weeks of preorders and a release on the 30th. I have an inkling KT will go on preorder on the 30th, considering we'll be seeing previews in 2ish weeks.
From previously in this thread...
Ghaz wrote: Except we have the Nighthaunt battletome which GW has already stated as coming out this month...
Spoiler:
I think you may have misread my post. I don't see how Nighthaunt coming out this month has anything to do with a preorder for KT going up the last weekend of the month (indicating a July release). Nighthaunt could very well also be released on the same day AOS 2.0 is.
I think you may have misread my post. I don't see how Nighthaunt coming out this month has anything to do with a preorder for KT going up the last weekend of the month (indicating a July release). Nighthaunt could very well also be released on the same day AOS 2.0 is.
Imagine the logistical nightmare of KT preorder on the same day as AOS release.... not to mention the fact that if we look at dark imperium, it will sellout during the weekend and more stock will have to be ordered on the day, So id expect they wont do preorders for that weekend.
Maybe first two weekends of july are AOS focused and then next two are KT. Id expect they want to do a proper release for KT, not just a forgebane style "this is the box, buy it and away you go"
Maybe k kill team is the filler during the start of Aos 2.0 pre-orders and release. July probably is filled to the brim with ghosts and gold-clad wizards
They seem to follow the ruin push fit terrain GW had been doing lately : destroyed wall + cardboard mat. This one had an upper level on one of the full wall, so that's new.
Bloodmaster wrote: Maybe k kill team is the filler during the start of Aos 2.0 pre-orders and release. July probably is filled to the brim with ghosts and gold-clad wizards
Possible, but that means its got to be up for preorder on the same day as AOS, the 16th, which means it would be announced next sunday... i don't see that happening, but its entirely possible.
The reason i dont think itll be june is because of the point i made about GW working in financial year halves not quarters... doesnt make sense to buff what is likely an already awesome half.
Gangers aren't street hoodlums, as said- they're pretty much 'house militia'.
I'm not seeing how this is some huge earth-shattering difference. A militiaman, a veteran street thug, a "weekend warrior" PDF soldier, none stack up against trained, professional soldiers, who are the top 10% of those groups tithed away and given extensive additional training, reliable equipment, and unless they're a fresh founding experience fighting genuine existential horrors. A Space Marine is the equivalent of the top 1% of the latter group plus ancient genetic science, powered armour, terror weaponry, and potentially centuries of experience.
Nobody has argued it is physically impossible for a ganger to beat a guardsman or a marine, a plasmagun is to one degree or another a plasmagun, but you have to be in a position to attack your enemy and then hit them with it for that to matter. You have to be able to aim and fire in the heat of the moment against a squad of trained killers or a genetically engineered posthuman monster who can practically hear you sweating. You have to overcome the propaganda you've been fed since birth that paints the guard are the best of the best blessed by the Emperor and marines as His literal invincible angels of vengeance. And you have to hope that your shonky, unblessed, "quietly diverted by the House" fancypants gun actually, you know, fires.
I'm sure it's possible to reach a point where a ganger has collected enough fancy shiny gear to make them a genuine threat, but that's not the norm, that's the kind of level for special named characters not House Militia Mook 17267156267 humping around a plasmagun for which "man-portable" is a generous description, which hasn't been blessed by a techpriest(ie, properly maintained) in years, and who people are proposing go up against proper soldiers or superhumans. Sure, Mook 17267156267 could get in a lucky shot and kill even a Chapter Master, but it's orders of magnitude more likely they would misfire and get shot in the head, miss their shot and get shot in the head, or never even get a chance to fire at all because they were shot in the head before they even saw their enemy.
In 40K they don't have the headroom to represent that kind of distinction, a Conscript with a plasmagun isn't much different than a Guardsman with a plasmagun or even a Marine with a plasmagun, but with systems like Necromunda and Kill Team/Rogue Trader they actually do have the opportunity to present the full range of "not superheavy tanks and giant daemonic walking death robots" infantry combat and it always puzzles me why people don't want them to.
Gangers aren't street hoodlums, as said- they're pretty much 'house militia'.
I'm not seeing how this is some huge earth-shattering difference. A militiaman, a veteran street thug, a "weekend warrior" PDF soldier, none stack up against trained, professional soldiers, who are the top 10% of those groups tithed away and given extensive additional training, reliable equipment, and unless they're a fresh founding experience fighting genuine existential horrors. A Space Marine is the equivalent of the top 1% of the latter group plus ancient genetic science, powered armour, terror weaponry, and potentially centuries of experience.
Because you’re arguing from a perspective where skill is a linear thing that can always be pushed upwards with dramatic results, and others are viewing it as a diminishing returns matter. This is a sticky issue even in the 40k fiction itself where some material presents it as if a marine has attained level 70 through RPG style grinding and lowly mortals have a level 40 cap, and others present it as he just has pretty standard top end skill mixed with enhanced reflexes and strength.
Arguably there’s little to no difference between most Marines and a Schola graduate beyond their augments.
When it comes to the troops provided for the AM, its 10%. It does not have to be the top 10, just 1 in 10. I'm sure some governors provide the bottom 10% at times to get rid of the troublesome.
zamerion wrote: In the next month (at the end of the june WD) nothing about kill team :(
More AoS and blood bowl.
Huh, wild. I guess they are actually doing a proper release as all the news from the games Expo said they'd start talking about it on Community this month. I very much figured it would be "here's a book and a push fit terrain kit, and we'll give you a boxed set sometime this year." Also nice to hear we might get those Dark Elves in July.
Zethnar wrote: They have Age of Sigmar coming out this month and Adeptus Titanicus in August. Anyone that thought this was coming out in July was kidding themselves.
Studio said we'll start seeing stuff in 2-3 weeks a week ago, so we'll see.
They said we'd start seeing information in 2-3 weeks, nothing about actual product releases. It could very well be that we aren't going to see anything until Rogue Trader drops later this year (in fact that would be my guess that Rogue Trader is some kind of introductory product and we'll see a core rulebook come out either at the same time or a month or two after).
GW are very much not going to drop 3 core products within a 2 month period, doing so would be insanity.
Insurgency Walker wrote: Didn't it look like different terrain in the kill team vs. kill team rogue trader? I think the basic kill team would come first.
There will be new ruins, but has there been any word on a starter set that includes them?
My impression is that it's going to be the other way around. Rogue Trader provides a complete Kill Team game out of the box using the floor plans, and if you want to use the 3D rules they'll handily release new terrain kits to go with that. Similar setup to Necromunda.
Zethnar wrote: They said we'd start seeing information in 2-3 weeks, nothing about actual product releases. It could very well be that we aren't going to see anything until Rogue Trader drops later this year (in fact that would be my guess that Rogue Trader is some kind of introductory product and we'll see a core rulebook come out either at the same time or a month or two after).
GW are very much not going to drop 3 core products within a 2 month period, doing so would be insanity.
I talked to a guy who already read the KT book. He didn't tell me anything, just that it was good (but he works for GW and likes basically everything they do, so it doesn't mean much).
But he usually doesn't get the final product until very late in the development process, so I definitely think it's coming out this summer.
New Orks August/September, then wolves following shortly. genestealers around the new year. Sisters Q3 2019 and thats 50/50.
Now today we’re hearing from anonymous industry experts on the retailer side of things that there may be something planned for 40k this July that won’t really interfere with either of the big summer tournaments:
Skirmish is back for 40k with expansions like Shadespire. But on 2×2 table mats with terrain, with eventual new model support. GW plans for it to be as big as shadespire was that they were not prepared for.
I really, really hope that Kill Team isn't going to be a Shadespire-esque affair, that's completely the opposite of what I want out of it. Hopefully this is just arse-pull nonsense.
Gangers aren't street hoodlums, as said- they're pretty much 'house militia'.
I'm not seeing how this is some huge earth-shattering difference. A militiaman, a veteran street thug, a "weekend warrior" PDF soldier, none stack up against trained, professional soldiers, who are the top 10% of those groups tithed away and given extensive additional training, reliable equipment, and unless they're a fresh founding experience fighting genuine existential horrors. A Space Marine is the equivalent of the top 1% of the latter group plus ancient genetic science, powered armour, terror weaponry, and potentially centuries of experience.
'Militia' doesn't mean he's drilling on the weekend, it doesn't mean they're incompetent wannabes. It's more in line with an actual noble house having their own private military. Considering Necromunda's a brutal place, I'd chance it to say that within a short time some of the gangers could easily serve as not only Guardsmen, but Veterans. I'm not going to say all warfare is equal, but... well, let's just say if I had a choice between enlisted hive gangers and an agri-world regiment, going in to clear a hive or forge world... the farmers aren't my pick.
You've got to remember, we also have Imperial Guardsmen that fight using tactics similar to the formation battles of the 1700's.
Gangers aren't street hoodlums, as said- they're pretty much 'house militia'.
I'm not seeing how this is some huge earth-shattering difference. A militiaman, a veteran street thug, a "weekend warrior" PDF soldier, none stack up against trained, professional soldiers, who are the top 10% of those groups tithed away and given extensive additional training, reliable equipment, and unless they're a fresh founding experience fighting genuine existential horrors. A Space Marine is the equivalent of the top 1% of the latter group plus ancient genetic science, powered armour, terror weaponry, and potentially centuries of experience.
'Militia' doesn't mean he's drilling on the weekend, it doesn't mean they're incompetent wannabes. It's more in line with an actual noble house having their own private military. Considering Necromunda's a brutal place, I'd chance it to say that within a short time some of the gangers could easily serve as not only Guardsmen, but Veterans. I'm not going to say all warfare is equal, but... well, let's just say if I had a choice between enlisted hive gangers and an agri-world regiment, going in to clear a hive or forge world... the farmers aren't my pick.
You've got to remember, we also have Imperial Guardsmen that fight using tactics similar to the formation battles of the 1700's.
Some hive gangers are street hoodlums, but some are better than that and act as the Houses' militia. There's no one "level" of house gang. Most of the ones we've seen - the ones you play out in Necromunda - are lower-level gangs. They're in the Underhive because that's a dumping ground for excess population and a pressure valve for conflict and stress. The betterones get called back to the hive city to get a "proper" job (there's an example of a House Escher "Queensguard"-pattern autogun, for example).
BrookM wrote: News of playing on 2x2 mats does sound nice, doesn't take up too much space and if it plays fast enough, Lunch Hammer will make a return.
I think I'll consider it "rumors of playing on 2x2" a little longer. That seems a little cramped to me.
BrookM wrote: News of playing on 2x2 mats does sound nice, doesn't take up too much space and if it plays fast enough, Lunch Hammer will make a return.
I think I'll consider it "rumors of playing on 2x2" a little longer. That seems a little cramped to me.
I expect it is 2x2 x 2x2 (4 boards), but seeing some of the newer games, maybe not.
'Militia' doesn't mean he's drilling on the weekend, it doesn't mean they're incompetent wannabes. It's more in line with an actual noble house having their own private military. Considering Necromunda's a brutal place, I'd chance it to say that within a short time some of the gangers could easily serve as not only Guardsmen, but Veterans. I'm not going to say all warfare is equal, but... well, let's just say if I had a choice between enlisted hive gangers and an agri-world regiment, going in to clear a hive or forge world... the farmers aren't my pick.
Yeah, but when they have to fight outside a hive or forge the fact that half your troops are curled in a ball with crippling agoraphobia won't help your cause. Bring out the farm boys...
BrookM wrote: News of playing on 2x2 mats does sound nice, doesn't take up too much space and if it plays fast enough, Lunch Hammer will make a return.
I think I'll consider it "rumors of playing on 2x2" a little longer. That seems a little cramped to me.
I expect it is 2x2 x 2x2 (4 boards), but seeing some of the newer games, maybe not.
It's certainly the easiest one to guess considering GW sells very specific sized Realm of Battle tiles and may want to push them with the release of Kill Team. It's a big part or why I'm wary of the 2x2 rumor. That's another easy guess as long as you base it on the tiles alone and disregard the gameplay implications.
Graphite wrote: Yeah, but when they have to fight outside a hive or forge the fact that half your troops are curled in a ball with crippling agoraphobia won't help your cause. Bring out the farm boys...
That is true. There's Soldiers trained for everything.
All the point I'm trying to make is that they could be converted over. We're talking GW's "Fluff vs. Crunch" again, where a Space Marine is an unstoppable killing machine with the strength of a dozen men... that also gets killed by a guardsman with a bayonet in the actual game. Game is gonna game, fluff's gonna do its own thing.
Rolsheen wrote: These July release rumours are sounding a bit fishy to me, as my local manager vehemently denied it was getting released anytime soon
Your local manager probably knows less about what's coming up than you do, given GW takes a very "treat 'em like mushrooms" approach to their own staff. That said, it is seeming fairly unlikely unless we're going to go back to the concept that Kill Team is its own thing more on the scale of Shadow War(ie, a one-off book mainly designed to help push the terrain kits coming out with it), while the whole Rogue Trader/"40K Shadespire" thing is an entirely separate product line and the actual proper "big deal" release, in which case them chucking KT out on one weekend during the glut of AoS 2.0 material to keep 40K people on the line isn't implausible.
Rolsheen wrote: These July release rumours are sounding a bit fishy to me, as my local manager vehemently denied it was getting released anytime soon
Your local manager probably knows less about what's coming up than you do, given GW takes a very "treat 'em like mushrooms" approach to their own staff. That said, it is seeming fairly unlikely unless we're going to go back to the concept that Kill Team is its own thing more on the scale of Shadow War(ie, a one-off book mainly designed to help push the terrain kits coming out with it), while the whole Rogue Trader/"40K Shadespire" thing is an entirely separate product line and the actual proper "big deal" release, in which case them chucking KT out on one weekend during the glut of AoS 2.0 material to keep 40K people on the line isn't implausible.
Yes. My local managers usually don't know stuff in advance either, except for things that require training: for 40K 8th ed., or AoS 2.0, they went to a GW workshop a few weeks before release to get to know the rules (since they need to run demos on the day they go for pre-order).
For everything else, they know basically as much as the other retailers (i.e., know what goes on pre-order a week before it does, but now we also have that info in WarCom).
According to multiple sources from the last GW event, we're supposed to get news about KT this week or next week. Hopefully that's still the plan.
Do we even have any idea what kind of game it is going to be yet? A skirmish game where you can use 40k models like Shadow War: Armageddon? A micro-game with pre-set forces like Shadespire? A hybrid board-game wargame like Deathwatch: Overkill?
Perfect Organism wrote: Do we even have any idea what kind of game it is going to be yet? A skirmish game where you can use 40k models like Shadow War: Armageddon? A micro-game with pre-set forces like Shadespire? A hybrid board-game wargame like Deathwatch: Overkill?
In little words, necromunda but with 40k armies (and maybe some news as rogue trader). Alternative activations, skills, etc etc, with some elements of 40k : command points, mortal wounds, rerolls, etcetc
They said that its a new game, so will have some special rules (for example there is D10)
Having fethed up the vehicle rules for 40k I hope this game rocks.
I'm sure you could use some other faction to build a group of pilots outside their knights. I can think of all sorts of tasty scenarios around pilots, but would be a limited bag of tricks. When you think about it, killing the pilots outside their knights has some advantages, and sabotage of a knight would be the kind of mission a kill team would perform.
Personally I'm hoping for "appropriate Soup". Like, taking a Deathwatch or Grey Knight marine in the retinue of an appropriate Ordo Inquisitor(and also: decent Ordo rules, or just Ordo rules actually being a thing), or the reverse with an Inquisitor joining a DW or GK unit, or mixed Eldar to represent Corsairs and so on.
But what I'm expecting is monofactions and probably being stuck using Primaris if you want decent Marines.
I like how forces are arranged in AoS Skirmish so I hope this is similar. Previous versions have always been constrained by sticking to unit choices so a departure from this would be welcome.
Insurgency Walker wrote: Having fethed up the vehicle rules for 40k I hope this game rocks.
I'm sure you could use some other faction to build a group of pilots outside their knights. I can think of all sorts of tasty scenarios around pilots, but would be a limited bag of tricks. When you think about it, killing the pilots outside their knights has some advantages, and sabotage of a knight would be the kind of mission a kill team would perform.
A player could also convert Sacristans and Squires and Servitors and so on as support troops.
So I can't say much on this, but I've seen some of the new Kill Team stuff that's coming up. Look for a fully supported kill team game, a year of support and releases for it. It's also going to have compact vertical terrain, that you can store easily by disassembling it or folding it up. There will also be new model kits, and it's going to come in a full sized starter box.
Insurgency Walker wrote: Having fethed up the vehicle rules for 40k I hope this game rocks.
I'm sure you could use some other faction to build a group of pilots outside their knights. I can think of all sorts of tasty scenarios around pilots, but would be a limited bag of tricks. When you think about it, killing the pilots outside their knights has some advantages, and sabotage of a knight would be the kind of mission a kill team would perform.
A player could also convert Sacristans and Squires and Servitors and so on as support troops.
Con. Vert? Haha, what funny words you use!
Nice of GW to release Kill Team in July, though. Gives 40k player not into Age of Sigmar something to do through all the new edition releases. I hope the rules aren't too bad.
Invul wrote: Orks are on 32mm bases. Sweet sweet joy.
Where you seen this please?
Freezeframing the bit with the Orks are facing off against GSC. The neophytes are on 25mm except for their heavy weapons guy, who’s on 32mm. The Orks match his. (Well, and you can tell their gorilla asses are no longer hanging off the side, too.)
Freezeframing the bit with the Orks are facing off against GSC. The neophytes are on 25mm except for their heavy weapons guy, who’s on 32mm. The Orks match his. (Well, and you can tell their gorilla asses are no longer hanging off the side, too.)
It doesn't look like a new ork kit though. It's the same body and arms for the plastic boyz. Nothing stops you from placing them on 32s right now.
