Xenomancers wrote: Power discrepancies of this level between factions in the same codex are UNACCEPTABLE.
We haven't seen the full supplements yet so we can't make any such statements.
At a glance people thought Ultras were better than White Scars but this is not the case once you build a list playing to the strengths of WS.
QFT.
Main Codex just had units and some playability.
Supplements add a dimension of Narrative effectiveness to what we know of chapters.
UM: Jack-of-all trades, decent at everything and experts at nothing.
WS: Fast attack specialists. Their guys need/want to get in close as fast as possible.
IH: Heavy support specialists. Heavy weapons and lots of armor that is tough as adamantium. Yes, this means they are in their element from turn 1; but they also want to stay in devastator doctrine making most of the army a little less effective vs other marines in subsequent turns.
RG: stealth assassins. Snipers extraordinaire, scouts and phobos primaris are what this army is built around; add in some anti-armor for mop-up after you have deleted all the force multipliers. They are a little more of a long-game playing army.
So far, the supplements have oscillated between more and less primaris vs oldmarines. With both still being viable choices in army composition. The next 2 will be more of the same.
IF: Bolter Bunnies/siege specialists. I expect/suspect that thier super-doctrine will be Tactical-based and either super-power Bolter discipline, or grant Bolters/antitank weapons better AP and damage vs buildings/cover.
S8? Not many. Lower Strength? Possibly tons upon tons. The Knights could still walk away from CC and shoot. The Dreds can't unless UM. I just feel like I see easy ways around this one.
I think dreads confound it a little. They overwatch well (as IH) and punch well. People claiming all vehicle armies are going to smash it up will get caught up by melee units for sure.
Honestly I'd probably treat the dreadnought ball like a Castellan - kill the rest of the army and focus on objectives.
Xenomancers wrote: Power discrepancies of this level between factions in the same codex are UNACCEPTABLE.
I disagree, its logical some units to perform better in some factions. What will be bad if one faction is clearly superior to the rest.
For now every SM chapter look really good and better than all other factions and that will be real problem.
I think GW really put them self in the corner with this books and if the pshychic awakening and CA don`t fix things this will kill the edition.
I think you've rather missed the point, if the whole codex is over or under performing then points changes can be used to balance them out.
If 1 subfaction traits make a unit worth 200 points while all the others only make the unit worth 150 points, that is a problem as all those subfactions pay the same points.
Also marine's had a long way to climb before the were on the same level of broken a alitoc flyer spam, GSC and choas soup, GW may have managed to get them past that point for 1 or 2 combinations
There is nothing to climb because this is totally new codex with very little in common with the old one.
First GW did things they tried not to do all editions, give extra easy to get bonuses to hit, give full rerolls and give extra rerolls on wound !!! Now even Tao or Guard cant outshoot marines, the paper planes will be countered and you have snippets that can kill reliable characters. Forget Allaitoc flyers, IH flyers will probably be better.
GSC have little chances vs SM, Infiltrators, lots of tough bodies that are hard to remove even in close combat, serious firepower that destroy everything in range, strat that intercept units coming from reserve.,
SM are busted the only problem is they cant spam everything in their list because of the points.
If CA ignore them, Ynnari will look like paper tiger in comparison.
Marin wrote: First GW did things they tried not to do all editions, give extra easy to get bonuses to hit, give full rerolls and give extra rerolls on wound !!!
Well that just isn't true. Bobby was giving full rerolls to hits and wounds in the index.
Now even Tao or Guard cant outshoot marines
Uuhhhh....no. Tau just won NOVA. IH doesn't dramatically increase the shooting of the army. The buffs that got handed out were to the middling Primaris Infantry.
Forget Allaitoc flyers, IH flyers will probably be better.
GSC have little chances vs SM, Infiltrators, lots of tough bodies that are hard to remove even in close combat, serious firepower that destroy everything in range, strat that intercept units coming from reserve.
You mean the exact same ability that GSC got before marines? Which means marines are forcibly spending 220 to 330 points on infiltrators. They're still Primaris, so, do what the other GSC guy did and take some dirt cheap mining lasers with no money penalty and work them off the board before deepstrikes need to pop up.
I'm genuinely unsure on how Lying in Wait interacts with scramblers though.
And the marine intercept is far more limiting than the Eldar one.
SM are busted the only problem is they cant spam everything in their list because of the points.
But now you guys are at a crossroads - a 5++ or -1 damage? You can't have both unless you're spending hard. I can't recall the last time someone claimed a 5++ was great - look at how people view daemon engines.
40k is just getting ridiculous, I have no more will to play until this new wave of codices is done, if non-SM codices are even remade. Getting tired of Bubblehammer and the exaggerated lethality new releases are getting lately. I'll continue watching the news with interest and play with a few people but it's too much for now. That's the final drop for me after my 60€/72 pts AdMech transports getting outclassed by the new Impulsor transport a few months later.
But now you guys are at a crossroads - a 5++ or -1 damage? You can't have both unless you're spending hard. I can't recall the last time someone claimed a 5++ was great - look at how people view daemon engines.
(Deathwatch get 2 point SS?! OVERPOWERED!)
You will ALWAYS have both. You need two characters for a Battalion.
But now you guys are at a crossroads - a 5++ or -1 damage? You can't have both unless you're spending hard. I can't recall the last time someone claimed a 5++ was great - look at how people view daemon engines.
(Deathwatch get 2 point SS?! OVERPOWERED!)
yeah, because the 5++ is stuck on a profile that pays too much for it.
But now you guys are at a crossroads - a 5++ or -1 damage? You can't have both unless you're spending hard. I can't recall the last time someone claimed a 5++ was great - look at how people view daemon engines.
(Deathwatch get 2 point SS?! OVERPOWERED!)
You will ALWAYS have both. You need two characters for a Battalion.
Right, so ~300 points of character spend to support a bubble that isn't going to be a single dreadnought, so, 700 to 800 points.
BaconCatBug wrote: 5++ bubble and gives BS2+ to a unit within 3" for the shooting phase, Flat 3 repair
The wording on the repair ability felt a bit wonky - is it worded as "up to 3, rather than up to D3" just to stop you repairing past maximum W on a vehicle?
But now you guys are at a crossroads - a 5++ or -1 damage? You can't have both unless you're spending hard. I can't recall the last time someone claimed a 5++ was great - look at how people view daemon engines.
(Deathwatch get 2 point SS?! OVERPOWERED!)
yeah, because the 5++ is stuck on a profile that pays too much for it.
Redemptor is T7 W13 - 105 points
Forgefiend is T7 W12, 5++, heal 1 - 100 points
Redepmtor spends likely 200 for a 5++. FF spends 160 for BS3. Pretty even-stevens I'd say.
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Ishagu wrote: Two Repulsors, now with a good Invul, reducing damage, not dropping a profile and being repaired for 9 wounds a turn potentially.
You don't think that's worth it? Just a basic example.
The rest of the infantry is no slouch either.
Totally worth it. It just isn't the game breaker people are making it out to be. (wonders why the cost of repulsors and executioners went up)
BaconCatBug wrote: 5++ bubble and gives BS2+ to a unit within 3" for the shooting phase, Flat 3 repair
The wording on the repair ability felt a bit wonky - is it worded as "up to 3, rather than up to D3" just to stop you repairing past maximum W on a vehicle?
It says "up to 3" because if a model has only lost 2 wounds, you can't "regain 3" wounds. By saying "up to" it allows you to repair 1, 2 or 3 wounds as required. There might also be some niche reason why you only want to restore 1 wound to something.
But now you guys are at a crossroads - a 5++ or -1 damage? You can't have both unless you're spending hard. I can't recall the last time someone claimed a 5++ was great - look at how people view daemon engines.
(Deathwatch get 2 point SS?! OVERPOWERED!)
You will ALWAYS have both. You need two characters for a Battalion.
I don't think you can have 2 of the same named characters.
Those are the abilities Iron Father Feirros has. We don't know what the bog standard Iron Father gets.
But now you guys are at a crossroads - a 5++ or -1 damage? You can't have both unless you're spending hard. I can't recall the last time someone claimed a 5++ was great - look at how people view daemon engines.
(Deathwatch get 2 point SS?! OVERPOWERED!)
You will ALWAYS have both. You need two characters for a Battalion.
I don't think you can have 2 of the same named characters.
Those are the abilities Iron Father Feirros has. We don't know what the bog standard Iron Father gets.
But now you guys are at a crossroads - a 5++ or -1 damage? You can't have both unless you're spending hard. I can't recall the last time someone claimed a 5++ was great - look at how people view daemon engines.
(Deathwatch get 2 point SS?! OVERPOWERED!)
You will ALWAYS have both. You need two characters for a Battalion.
I don't think you can have 2 of the same named characters.
Those are the abilities Iron Father Feirros has. We don't know what the bog standard Iron Father gets.
Unnamed Forgefather would get the relic.
Are IH getting unnamed Forgefathers? I haven't seen anything saying they are.
So no, not even, not even close.
Also the Discordant is a pure melee thingy, also dakka daemonengine build does not work.
We're trading even costs for buffs - I don't need disco to be visible even if that's not his primary. I couldn't tell you if dakkadaemons are viable, because I don't have enough to run that, but the HAC sure seem handy is primaris start breeding.
MF has their fists built in and VS their guns so it gets tricky.
But now you guys are at a crossroads - a 5++ or -1 damage? You can't have both unless you're spending hard. I can't recall the last time someone claimed a 5++ was great - look at how people view daemon engines.
(Deathwatch get 2 point SS?! OVERPOWERED!)
-1 damage is free - as a relic for any of the other 3 HQ's youll be taking.
But now you guys are at a crossroads - a 5++ or -1 damage? You can't have both unless you're spending hard. I can't recall the last time someone claimed a 5++ was great - look at how people view daemon engines.
(Deathwatch get 2 point SS?! OVERPOWERED!)
-1 damage is free - as a relic for any of the other 3 HQ's youll be taking.
But now you guys are at a crossroads - a 5++ or -1 damage? You can't have both unless you're spending hard. I can't recall the last time someone claimed a 5++ was great - look at how people view daemon engines.
(Deathwatch get 2 point SS?! OVERPOWERED!)
yeah, because the 5++ is stuck on a profile that pays too much for it.
Redemptor is T7 W13 - 105 points
Forgefiend is T7 W12, 5++, heal 1 - 100 points
Redepmtor spends likely 200 for a 5++. FF spends 160 for BS3. Pretty even-stevens I'd say.
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Ishagu wrote: Two Repulsors, now with a good Invul, reducing damage, not dropping a profile and being repaired for 9 wounds a turn potentially.
You don't think that's worth it? Just a basic example.
The rest of the infantry is no slouch either.
Totally worth it. It just isn't the game breaker people are making it out to be. (wonders why the cost of repulsors and executioners went up)
You are just wrong dude. If this isn't game breaking the non iron hands repulsor needs to drop 50 points.
But now you guys are at a crossroads - a 5++ or -1 damage? You can't have both unless you're spending hard. I can't recall the last time someone claimed a 5++ was great - look at how people view daemon engines.
(Deathwatch get 2 point SS?! OVERPOWERED!)
-1 damage is free - as a relic for any of the other 3 HQ's youll be taking.
Note:
You can't have both unless you're spending hard.
mandtory hq's aren't spending hard. It's unavoidable point expenature. It's not like another marine faction needing to spend 250 for a durado dread for a 5++ aura that can just be focused first and will die easily and you still had to buy 2 HQ's anyways and don't get a -1 damage aura ether. Just go ahead and give me my reroll wounds aura back please. It would still be inferior to this.
The thing that baffles me is that Iron Hands are getting significant buffs to both damage *and* durability. A really tanky theme would be great, or a killy one, but both seems like it'll be way too potent.
Spending hard on a death ball. Calgar is 200 so this guy will easily be that. Add a librarian, which will be about 100. Then add a minimum of 3 vehicles.
And throw caution to the wind for when this guy gets taken for a ride on his points if he ends up too strong.
Even if Iron Hands (floating) gun castle isn't gonna be the list that's gonna take home the biggest tournaments in the finals, everyone better be ready to play that list at least 2-3 games in a 5-round tournament, lol.
A very strong character, but we will need to see his points before it can be decided just how good he is. Wild guess for me says 175 points. He is a good fighter at both melee and range, has super strong synergy with vehicles and gives a unit BS2+. Very solid. I think he is pretty comparable to Calgar thus the higher point bracket. If he is at 175 or so I think he will be in all my IH lists. That 5++ will be amazing for the vehicles he wants to shepard and he is hard to snipe with t5, 7 wounds and a 5+++. The 2+ armor as well will go a long way in making up for his lack of a 3++ or 4++ invuln save.
Spending hard on a death ball. Calgar is 200 so this guy will easily be that. Add a librarian, which will be about 100. Then add a minimum of 3 vehicles.
And throw caution to the wind for when this guy gets taken for a ride on his points if he ends up too strong.
It's just a repeat of gman aura man. No marine unit is worth gak if you can get the same unit with -1 damage and a 5+ aura and put out the same damage. Heck - this dude even give a +1 to hit to a unit so you can actually utilize plasma weapons. These should not be chapter specific buffs. It should be something all tech marines do and it shouldn't be that good ether. Essentially. Ironhands get all the defensive buffs but can still take the offensive ones and get some unique offensive ones. It is stupid.
Heavy Plasma Incinerators, a heavy-type plasma weapon that gets to reroll 1's in devastator doctine. With BS2+ and reroll 1's you can safely supercharge, hitting all 5-10 shots without fear of killing your own dudes.
Also various Macro plasma incinerator platforms(redemtor and repulsor executioner), which also have their other weapons benefit from the 2+ bs.
Edit, 2 things:
1) Cthuluspy: a change in BS value (like this) never had any effect on overheating. Bonuses/negatives to hit always have (and still do) effect it.
2) I'd expect Fieros to split the difference between Calgar and Khan, prolly closer to 150 than 175. Khan has 3 abilities: usual captain, +1 to wound in melee aura, and auto-mortal wound shooting. Calgar just has 2: +2cps if warlord, and flat reroll tohit. Calgar's armor and weapons really add more to his cost(and a few extras in statline)
Heavy Plasma Incinerators, a heavy-type plasma weapon that gets to reroll 1's in devastator doctine. With BS2+ and reroll 1's you can safely supercharge, hitting all 5-10 shots without fear of killing your own dudes.
Also various Macro plasma incinerator platforms(redemtor and repulsor executioner), which also have their other weapons benefit from the 2+ bs.
Well yeah, but you can't do what you could do before and increase your hit rolls by 1 so any 1s you roll for super charged plasma becomes 2, thereby allowing you to ignore overheating. Which was really weird and I'm happy that's not a thing now.
Like, you do have a high chance of not overheating with rerolls and BS2+, but there's still a chance of failure, as opposed to before when you were simply immune.
I'm still really not sold on this talk of the plasma option for redemptors being a thing even with IH. The straight d6 shots is just too dang unreliable to count on and the ap-1 extra means more for the gatling than the already super high ap plasma.
Heavy Plasma Incinerators, a heavy-type plasma weapon that gets to reroll 1's in devastator doctine. With BS2+ and reroll 1's you can safely supercharge, hitting all 5-10 shots without fear of killing your own dudes.
Also various Macro plasma incinerator platforms(redemtor and repulsor executioner), which also have their other weapons benefit from the 2+ bs.
Well yeah, but you can't do what you could do before and increase your hit rolls by 1 so any 1s you roll for super charged plasma becomes 2, thereby allowing you to ignore overheating. Which was really weird and I'm happy that's not a thing now.
Like, you do have a high chance of not overheating with rerolls and BS2+, but there's still a chance of failure, as opposed to before when you were simply immune.
As far as I am aware a +1 to-hit still makes plasma overheat-proof. Just like -1 to hit still makes it overheat easier.
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Tibs Ironblood wrote: I'm still really not sold on this talk of the plasma option for redemptors being a thing even with IH. The straight d6 shots is just too dang unreliable to count on and the ap-1 extra means more for the gatling than the already super high ap plasma.
Totally agree.
It is not that the macro suddenly becomes good... Just less bad. I still am only using heavy onslaughts on all my options.
As far as I am aware a +1 to-hit still makes plasma overheat-proof. Just like -1 to hit still makes it overheat easier.
Huh, weird. For Orks Kustom Mega Blasters only overheat if you roll a non-modified (re: Natural) 1.
I guess they didn't change marine plasma weapons to act like that then.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I'm still really not sold on this talk of the plasma option for redemptors being a thing even with IH. The straight d6 shots is just too dang unreliable to count on and the ap-1 extra means more for the gatling than the already super high ap plasma.
It's 2d6 compared to 4. I agree that usually those 4 min 3 damage shots are better than the average on the plasma but the option is cheaper and in certain situations it is going to be better. It's just not even worth considering when 1's deal a wound yo your already over costed tank.
As far as I am aware a +1 to-hit still makes plasma overheat-proof. Just like -1 to hit still makes it overheat easier.
Huh, weird. For Orks Kustom Mega Blasters only overheat if you roll a non-modified (re: Natural) 1.
I guess they didn't change marine plasma weapons to act like that then.
Well yours don't slay your dudes ether. So there is that. Not exactly sure why they function differently because they shouldn't.
You are correct - my brain tricked me into thinking it was a +1 bonus. It just gives BS2+.
So not nearly as good as a +1 to hit. Unless you are bracketed. Then it's better. They can get +1 to hit for a vehicle with a psychic power that is on a 5 to cast though.
Bring along 4 Gravcannon Devastators with a Sergeant with Combi Plasma in a Drop Pod.
Now your 4+1 Grav Cannons are hitting on 2+ (because of the Doctrine extension) and the Sergeant can sit there with his thumb up his arse because he's no good for anything anymore and Overheat his plasma so he can die a glorious death (the signium no longer gives +1 to hit, it makes the BS2+, thus no longer benefiting Plasma Cannons, yet more proof GW know how screwed plasma is but refuse to fix it).
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I'm still really not sold on this talk of the plasma option for redemptors being a thing even with IH. The straight d6 shots is just too dang unreliable to count on and the ap-1 extra means more for the gatling than the already super high ap plasma.
It's 2d6 compared to 4. I agree that usually those 4 min 3 damage shots are better than the average on the plasma but the option is cheaper and in certain situations it is going to be better. It's just not even worth considering when 1's deal a wound yo your already over costed tank.
As far as I am aware a +1 to-hit still makes plasma overheat-proof. Just like -1 to hit still makes it overheat easier.
Huh, weird. For Orks Kustom Mega Blasters only overheat if you roll a non-modified (re: Natural) 1. I guess they didn't change marine plasma weapons to act like that then.
Well yours don't slay your dudes ether. So there is that. Not exactly sure why they function differently because they shouldn't.
Except it does though? It inflicts a mortal wound on the bearer, which means if the bearer is a spanner he's just dead.
Xenomancers wrote: You are correct - my brain tricked me into thinking it was a +1 bonus. It just gives BS2+.
So not nearly as good as a +1 to hit. Unless you are bracketed. Then it's better. They can get +1 to hit for a vehicle with a psychic power that is on a 5 to cast though.
But they double their wounds so its effectively a +1 to hit for one model.
Xenomancers wrote: You are correct - my brain tricked me into thinking it was a +1 bonus. It just gives BS2+.
So not nearly as good as a +1 to hit. Unless you are bracketed. Then it's better. They can get +1 to hit for a vehicle with a psychic power that is on a 5 to cast though.
But they double their wounds so its effectively a +1 to hit for one model.
Free prescience...whoopee...
It will get a 1 wound tank bs 2+ Though - rare case but +1 to hit would be better due to plasma overheats and such. Silly thing that will probably never happen but would be insane if it did. 1 wound repuslor with plasma overcharges and does a mortal wound to itself and uses the machine spirit revenge stratagem. Shoots again with the plasma. 4d6Str 9 AP-5 flat 2 damage shots out of a 1 wound tank hitting on 2's rerolling 1's...
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I'm still really not sold on this talk of the plasma option for redemptors being a thing even with IH. The straight d6 shots is just too dang unreliable to count on and the ap-1 extra means more for the gatling than the already super high ap plasma.
It's 2d6 compared to 4. I agree that usually those 4 min 3 damage shots are better than the average on the plasma but the option is cheaper and in certain situations it is going to be better. It's just not even worth considering when 1's deal a wound yo your already over costed tank.
As far as I am aware a +1 to-hit still makes plasma overheat-proof. Just like -1 to hit still makes it overheat easier.
Huh, weird. For Orks Kustom Mega Blasters only overheat if you roll a non-modified (re: Natural) 1.
I guess they didn't change marine plasma weapons to act like that then.
Well yours don't slay your dudes ether. So there is that. Not exactly sure why they function differently because they shouldn't.
Except it does though? It inflicts a mortal wound on the bearer, which means if the bearer is a spanner he's just dead.
Marine plasma straight slays it's user on an overheat (except for plasmas on tanks). Same with admech plasma. Hellblaster rolls a 1 it's destroyed. 3 wound inceptor rolls a 1 - it's destroyed. 16 wound landraider command tank rolls a 1 on it's combi plasma it's destroyed.
Xenomancers wrote: Power discrepancies of this level between factions in the same codex are UNACCEPTABLE.
I disagree, its logical some units to perform better in some factions. What will be bad if one faction is clearly superior to the rest.
For now every SM chapter look really good and better than all other factions and that will be real problem.
I think GW really put them self in the corner with this books and if the pshychic awakening and CA don`t fix things this will kill the edition.
I think you've rather missed the point, if the whole codex is over or under performing then points changes can be used to balance them out.
If 1 subfaction traits make a unit worth 200 points while all the others only make the unit worth 150 points, that is a problem as all those subfactions pay the same points.
Also marine's had a long way to climb before the were on the same level of broken a alitoc flyer spam, GSC and choas soup, GW may have managed to get them past that point for 1 or 2 combinations
There is nothing to climb because this is totally new codex with very little in common with the old one.
First GW did things they tried not to do all editions, give extra easy to get bonuses to hit, give full rerolls and give extra rerolls on wound !!! Now even Tao or Guard cant outshoot marines, the paper planes will be countered and you have snippets that can kill reliable characters. Forget Allaitoc flyers, IH flyers will probably be better.
GSC have little chances vs SM, Infiltrators, lots of tough bodies that are hard to remove even in close combat, serious firepower that destroy everything in range, strat that intercept units coming from reserve.,
SM are busted the only problem is they cant spam everything in their list because of the points.
If CA ignore them, Ynnari will look like paper tiger in comparison.
It's funny that you (and others) are wanting a nerf to marines while others don't think it's enough to make them competitive in tournaments. IMO marines just balanced in a poor way. Now some who agree with me think that the solution is to remove the buffs they give marines since the start of 8th and simply cut their points. Those people should play guard. I think a better solution, to keep marines feeling like marines, is to raise their points cost and give them a rule/statline change to increase their durability. Marines are killy enough as is, but struggle to win a sustained firefight. Custodes showed that elite armies can be durable and that an "op" rule/stat (4+ invuln on basic troops) is not op when priced correctly. You said it yourself that the points limitation is what keeps SM from dominating, and the same is true for any other army. Imagine if custodians were 30 points each. So if they look too competitive now, then remove the rules (and bring them back to feeling like super guard) or raise their points.
Do you guys remember how literally two months ago this forum was filled with naysayers who were attacking GW because they claimed that they can't make Marines good, and people were refusing to accept that a new codex will fix the problems with the faction? Oh how wrong they were.
Turns out it was a simple case of 1st codex syndrome.
Ishagu wrote: Do you guys remember how literally two months ago this forum was filled with naysayers who were attacking GW because they claimed that they can't make Marines good, and people were refusing to accept that a new codex will fix the problems with the faction? Oh how wrong they were.
Depends on what you think the problem was. I really do not think that a parking lot around Feirros is a drastic improvement over a parking lot around Guilliman as far as the interesting playstyles go.
You're not seeing the big picture with these new rules. The best stuff isn't even based around a parking lot.
You paused to consider that an Iron Hands Dakka Stormtalon has 18 shots at Ap-2 hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s and it avoids the degrading profile until the very end? Suddenly you can make perfectly viable, high performance flyer lists where before you could not. This is just one exciting application.
The aura of the Iron Father is great. If I was playing IH I'd have two tanks in the aura and nothing more. It's only a small piece of the puzzle.
And now RG might get exciting deployment shenanigans. White Scars have genuinely spicy assault elements and rules. Yes, the new codex IS amazing.
Ishagu wrote: Do you guys remember how literally two months ago this forum was filled with naysayers who were attacking GW because they claimed that they can't make Marines good, and people were refusing to accept that a new codex will fix the problems with the faction? Oh how wrong they were.
Turns out it was a simple case of 1st codex syndrome.
I'm not a big fan of their solution even if it ends up working out on the table top. I don't like the idea of GW doubling down on both more books/supplements to fix a F up and going further and further down the rabbit hole of sub chapters and rules is something that will eventually lead to a crash.
Factions and units should be designed to stand on their own, not needing a second codex and a half dozen more books to flesh said second codex out properly. If this is going to GW's model going forward 8th will end up making 7th look skinny in terms of bloat.
At this point my prediction is that the internal balance is now even worse than with the previous codex and it wasn't great then either. ThIH just seem so much better than other chapters thus far, so I really can't see the the others being used much in any competitive setting.
Don't be surprised if White Scars or RG actually end up bring the best.
All these IH vehicle seem fantastic. What happens when they get locked into combat on turn 1 by a unit that dashes across the table, can't be overwatched and prevents your tanks from disengaging?
Its the supplements allowing for ultra-specialized builds that double down on rewards for a player who wants that specific playstyle to be better than good.
While not having to sacrifice anything outside opportunity cost.
GW's focus on the supplement system is 'tank players should pony up $30 and really play Iron Hands', 'bike players should pay $30 and play White Scars,' 'infantry dakka players should buy extra Fist rules,' and so on.
There are exceptions, of course, but overall the SM design is if you want <X>, play <chapter>, and pay for the DLC that makes it better.
Ishagu wrote: Don't be surprised if White Scars or RG actually end up bring the best.
I would be extremely surprised, especially with the White Scars whose full rules we have had for a month.
All these IH vehicle seem fantastic. What happens when they get locked into combat on turn 1 by a unit that dashes a road the table, can't be overwatched and prevents your tanks from disengaging?
GW's focus on the supplement system is 'tank players should pony up $30 and really play Iron Hands', 'bike players should pay $30 and play White Scars,' 'infantry dakka players should buy extra Fist rules,' and so on.
And the biggest problem is that if you want to play an even mix of these units instead of some spammy one trick pony list, you're just fethed.
I have to say, after getting a good look at the FF, I dislike him. His boots look like really big platform shoes. More to the point it kinda looks like a bigger version of the electro priests frankenstein shoes and I hate them so now it's all I'll see when I look at him.
A bionic man in huge platform shoes just scouring the universe for big enough pair of bell bottoms.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I have to say, after getting a good look at the FF, I dislike him. His boots look like really big platform shoes. More to the point it kinda looks like a bigger version of the electro priests frankenstein shoes and I hate them so now it's all I'll see when I look at him.
A bionic man in huge platform shoes just scouring the universe for big enough pair of bell bottoms.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I have to say, after getting a good look at the FF, I dislike him. His boots look like really big platform shoes. More to the point it kinda looks like a bigger version of the electro priests frankenstein shoes and I hate them so now it's all I'll see when I look at him.
A bionic man in huge platform shoes just scouring the universe for big enough pair of bell bottoms.
Disco Stu, has an axe to grind with you.
I'm sure he does, I'll be waiting. I'd say I'd see him coming but Disco Stu doesn't advertise.
And the biggest problem is that if you want to play an even mix of these units instead of some spammy one trick pony list, you're better off playing ultramarines
fixed that for you. the thing is the specialization thing is a combination of fluff stretching back 30 years, combined with well.. bluntly put what we've been ASKING for. the fluff has long said "chapter X is really good at Y" and thus we've long asked for rules to reflect it, and now we've gotten it. One could certainly argue there is a degree of "be careful what you wish for" in regard to this.also obviously differant chapters will be stronger based on what ia good each edition. in an edition where bikes absolutely suck of course white scars will suck. just for example.
Xenomancers wrote: Marine plasma straight slays it's user on an overheat (except for plasmas on tanks). Same with admech plasma. Hellblaster rolls a 1 it's destroyed. 3 wound inceptor rolls a 1 - it's destroyed. 16 wound landraider command tank rolls a 1 on it's combi plasma it's destroyed.
Oh wow, it still does that? That's just dumb. GW should really go back to USR and make everything consistent, because these 100 variations of the same thing is getting really confusing.
BrianDavion wrote: in an edition where bikes absolutely suck of course white scars will suck. just for example.
I thought people were saying they suck cause you have to make the army last til turn 3 to make sure they are actually doing their special doctrine stuff.
BrianDavion wrote: in an edition where bikes absolutely suck of course white scars will suck. just for example.
I thought people were saying they suck cause you have to make the army last til turn 3 to make sure they are actually doing their special doctrine stuff.
I think you'll see a fair bit of White Scars. They have good strats and relics, etc.. People will probably just skip units that require the doctrine, take good characters, maybe one hard-hitting deepstrike unit they can 3D6 charge 7" from reserves, and soup up the rest. There are gems in that book.
Iron Hands on the other hand will favour the pure list very heavily. Their super-doctrine is just universally good on basically everything. Dreads, Tanks, Flyers, but even stuff like Sniper Scouts, etc.. You can ball-up a Repulsor castle in a super-bubble of -1 damage, 5++, etc., etc.. or you can MSU it out, cover the table and let the in-built re-roll 1s, move-and-shoot, FNP, 5+ overwatch, etc.. carry you.
As far as "here're free rules that make stuff better", Iron Hands just adds to almost anything in the Codex. Even people who don't wanna go for the super-ball-of-shooty-indestructable-death, it's a solid buff for almost any build. White Scars (and presumably Raven Guard) get things you need to build for very specifically.
Well that just isn't true. Bobby was giving full rerolls to hits and wounds in the index.
They avoided giving in in mass, not that they did not. There is a reason Bobby G was considered OP for so long and got neferd couple of times.
Uuhhhh....no. Tau just won NOVA. IH doesn't dramatically increase the shooting of the army. The buffs that got handed out were to the middling Primaris Infantry.
SM new codex was not allowed at Nova, its like saying new Ynnari are good because they won tournaments before their rework.
Comparing two units in bubble prove nothing, the stormeaven is anti ground killer.
Hemlock is only 16 range, so its not so hard to get into is 12 inch.
SR have T7 14 wounds, Hemlock have T6 with 12 wounds.
SM flyer can get invul save, -1 to damage and get repaired and have much more shoots and have strat that can`t be wounded on 3.
Hemlock can cast powers and is less expensive, can be made hard to kill with lighting fast.
Generally its up to the skill but good players will made SR much harder to kill.
You mean the exact same ability that GSC got before marines? Which means marines are forcibly spending 220 to 330 points on infiltrators. They're still Primaris, so, do what the other GSC guy did and take some dirt cheap mining lasers with no money penalty and work them off the board before deepstrikes need to pop up.
I'm genuinely unsure on how Lying in Wait interacts with scramblers though.
And the marine intercept is far more limiting than the Eldar one.
God forbid marines to have spend points to get advantages vs melee armies and yea SM player will always leave his infiltrators in the open to be shoot for free. There is nothing like LOS or cover in this game.
How it interact ? Easy if blip is in 12 inches and you cant set unit in the bleep 6 inch bubble, units is lost. SM are giving points to force the opponent deeper in his deployment zone and allow them to control the map.
Marine intercept is much easier to do, because there is no requirement to be in some special character aura and that character to be able to see the coming from deep strike unit.
SM are busted the only problem is they cant spam everything in their list because of the points.
After you start analyzing it, you discover that it simply doesn't work. You have to spend about 800 points in the heavy slots, which means bye bye to a brigade in a 1750 game. You cannot fit the iron father, another 2 HQ, 6 troops, 3 FA and 3 elite (where you probably want dreadnaughts) in 950 points.
You are forced to play a mono battalion list, and to spend 2 cp to get a chapter master, so you have a grand total of 6 cp.
You will have a decent death star in the middle of the table, but short ranged and low mobility (8" or less, no advancing). It doesn't even have all that firepower honestly. There are too many ways to play around it or to crush frontally.
IH will be really good when playing lots of vehicles in a scattered formation, thanks to the auto captain aura and mobility. The iron father will probably not get taken if it costs 200 points, one more redemptor drednaught is better and you want a librarian and some LTs. 5++ on vehicles isn't really that good, it's a +1 sv against -3 weapons when you are not in cover (which you should almost always be with mobile tanks).
Spoletta wrote: IH will be good, but not with the parking lot.
After you start analyzing it, you discover that it simply doesn't work. You have to spend about 800 points in the heavy slots, which means bye bye to a brigade in a 1750 game. You cannot fit the iron father, another 2 HQ, 6 troops, 3 FA and 3 elite (where you probably want dreadnaughts) in 950 points.
You are forced to play a mono battalion list, and to spend 2 cp to get a chapter master, so you have a grand total of 6 cp
You can easily skip both the elites and the fast attack choices by going twin batallions and (this is optional) a spearhead though. Thats 11CP including the Chapter master, or 12 if you bring 5 HQs (not really worth it unless you need that character anyways)
Yeah your not going to be going brigade with marines very often, it's just way to much tax units when a double battalion gets you almost tge same effect, though IronHands could be one faction that actually having only 1 battalion plus something else may be the way to go.
Ironhands flyers certainly are being reconsidered by a number of competitive player pod casts.
Repulsors, executioners are in vogue aswell, basically if it's a vehical and has fly your pretty much go for IronHands chapter.
Probably already over 1750. The infiltrators are an absolute necessity to screen your death ball from deep strike charges. You cannot use scouts or you are out of troops after turn 2.
Now, with this list, out of the 6 CA missions how many do you expect to have the advantage on?
On the null zone it is good. The iron father is almost useless, but you occupy the center with something really scary. On the other 5 though, i don't have good expectations.
The total firepower of the list is on the low side. You can increase it by switching 2 repulsors for a leviathan and a redemptor, but you are royally screwed if something gets in melee. The 4 intercessors with stalker bolter and no penalty on the move are nice though.
Ishagu wrote: Don't be surprised if White Scars or RG actually end up bring the best.
I would be extremely surprised, especially with the White Scars whose full rules we have had for a month.
All these IH vehicle seem fantastic. What happens when they get locked into combat on turn 1 by a unit that dashes a road the table, can't be overwatched and prevents your tanks from disengaging?
GW's focus on the supplement system is 'tank players should pony up $30 and really play Iron Hands', 'bike players should pay $30 and play White Scars,' 'infantry dakka players should buy extra Fist rules,' and so on.
And the biggest problem is that if you want to play an even mix of these units instead of some spammy one trick pony list, you're just fethed.
Movement is one of the strongest things in the game. Armies that can manipulate their movement more are very powerful in the hands of experienced players.
White Scars have methods of preventing units from leaving combat. It's too early to tell what is actually going to be the strongest chapter.
Iron Hands are certainly looking like the easiest to play as their bonuses don't require much Tactical thinking.
Movement is one of the strongest things in the game. Armies that can manipulate their movement more are very powerful in the hands of experienced players.
White Scars have methods of preventing units from leaving combat. It's too early to tell what is actually going to be the strongest chapter.
Iron Hands are certainly looking like the easiest to play as their bonuses don't require much Tactical thinking.
Emphasis mine, because this is why certain communities are having a meltdown right now. It's all on paper and they haven't thought past it.
Maximizing the tools you have on hand for White Scars requires a lot more finesse and it all starts at list building - you need a plan, you need to play aggressively, you need to know what your turn 3 plan will be, and you need to set a plan in motion from turn 1 that gets you there. Anybody who thinks games are over by turn 3 probably haven't followed much of the tournament circuit.
Maximizing the tools you have as Ultramarines is about knowing you have the most breadth of options in your toolbox even if your toolbox isn't as deep in any one realm as others. Use those tools to help handle pretty much any problem you might find yourself in, but you gotta think on your toes and remember each of your tools.
Maximizing Iron Hands seems pretty straightforward on paper - castle and fire at something you can see. This is why it's seen as "broken", even though a large portion of players are exploring the options you now have outside of a castle. That other part is where it'll really shine.
Just because Iron Hands is the easiest to wrap one's mind around doesn't make it the best. It's straightforward and powerful. It may even be the reasons Repulsors jumped in price.
But hot take - it won't take the tournament meta by storm for very long, if at all. Its hard counters will come forward quick and unless people adapt, they won't survive.
Also you guys need to think of the future. I frankly think we will see loyalist primarks. But no Ferrus Manus. Ergo, Iron hands are powerful right now but will fall behind eventually when Jaghatai, Corvus, Vulkan and someone else hits the circuit.
Just because Iron Hands is the easiest to wrap one's mind around doesn't make it the best. It's straightforward and powerful. It may even be the reasons Repulsors jumped in price.
But hot take - it won't take the tournament meta by storm for very long, if at all. Its hard counters will come forward quick and unless people adapt, they won't survive.
Kithail wrote: Also you guys need to think of the future. I frankly think we will see loyalist primarks. But no Ferrus Manus. Ergo, Iron hands are powerful right now but will fall behind eventually when Jaghatai, Corvus, Vulkan and someone else hits the circuit.
There's two main fan theories here - the first is that people keep finding bits of him, and he'll return as a clone / dreadnought / AI copy. The second is that
Spoiler:
his spirit lead the Emperor's Deamons / Legion of the Damned during the Webway War, and he'll return that way.
Crimson wrote: Eww. I'm allergic to primarchs. And no army should be revolving around one fancy special character.
I hope you include Feirros then. Isn't it the same thing?
Kinda. It certainly is annoying if the army revolves around him as well and it is bad design. Though at least in that instance you can easily personalise him, he doesn't really need to be Feirros lore or model wise; just some Master of the Forge using those rules. You really cannot do the same with special superbeings like Primarchs.
So to point out - the -1 damage relic seems to be techmarine ONLY. If you want IFF, plus the relic, plus spells, plus reroll wounds you're going to need 4 characters in the ball.
400 or so points in characters.
A few Repulsors or Levis or w/e will clock in at 900.
And as stated you need Infiltrators, so at least 220 there. Another 85 for Stalkers to fill a battalion.
That leaves you with fewer than 400 points for the rest of your "army".
Xenomancers wrote: Marine plasma straight slays it's user on an overheat (except for plasmas on tanks). Same with admech plasma. Hellblaster rolls a 1 it's destroyed. 3 wound inceptor rolls a 1 - it's destroyed. 16 wound landraider command tank rolls a 1 on it's combi plasma it's destroyed.
Oh wow, it still does that? That's just dumb. GW should really go back to USR and make everything consistent, because these 100 variations of the same thing is getting really confusing.
Xenomancers wrote: Marine plasma straight slays it's user on an overheat (except for plasmas on tanks). Same with admech plasma. Hellblaster rolls a 1 it's destroyed. 3 wound inceptor rolls a 1 - it's destroyed. 16 wound landraider command tank rolls a 1 on it's combi plasma it's destroyed.
Oh wow, it still does that? That's just dumb. GW should really go back to USR and make everything consistent, because these 100 variations of the same thing is getting really confusing.
Daedalus81 wrote: So to point out - the -1 damage relic seems to be techmarine ONLY. If you want IFF, plus the relic, plus spells, plus reroll wounds you're going to need 4 characters in the ball.
400 or so points in characters.
A few Repulsors or Levis or w/e will clock in at 900.
And as stated you need Infiltrators, so at least 220 there. Another 85 for Stalkers to fill a battalion.
That leaves you with fewer than 400 points for the rest of your "army".
At BEST you're running 8CP with no regen.
I've been running double battalion since the codex was released. 4 charcters is fine.
I run Calgar/Tiggy/Lt/Tech marine
35 intercessors
and 6 dreads (redemptor and invictor)
Ironhands probably just want to run 2x executioner and 1 levithan with that same build (standard libby and their Special character which is probably about 60 points cheaper in total) a captain might be worth sneaking in over a libby or a LT also (IDK). Infiltrators are absolute trash - invictor dreads do their job so much better without sucking.
Daedalus81 wrote: So to point out - the -1 damage relic seems to be techmarine ONLY. If you want IFF, plus the relic, plus spells, plus reroll wounds you're going to need 4 characters in the ball.
400 or so points in characters.
A few Repulsors or Levis or w/e will clock in at 900.
And as stated you need Infiltrators, so at least 220 there. Another 85 for Stalkers to fill a battalion.
That leaves you with fewer than 400 points for the rest of your "army".
At BEST you're running 8CP with no regen.
I've been running double battalion since the codex was released. 4 charcters is fine.
I run Calgar/Tiggy/Lt/Tech marine
35 intercessors
and 6 dreads (redemptor and invictor)
Ironhands probably just want to run 2x executioner and 1 levithan with that same build (standard libby and their Special character which is probably about 60 points cheaper in total) a captain might be worth sneaking in over a libby or a LT also (IDK). Infiltrators are absolute trash - invictor dreads do their job so much better without sucking.
But then you're confounding the death bubble, which is the point.
Another 300 points would have to go to troops. So, ~600 in troops, 960 into the executioners and levi, 200 IFF, 50 relic techmarine, 88 libby leaves you with 100 points. Someone can pretty easily murder the rest of your army and leave the stupid bubble to fondle itself.
Infiltrators are to keep overwatch blocking units off the bubble. There will be lots of great builds, but the sentiment that IH is just going to rock some murder machine and not have trouble is off base, I think.
I apologize, I am wrong. However, in everything but keyword and WS he's a chapter master. Why create a unit with that statline with an obviously inferior WS? I just don't understand the point of making him +3. If you are going to give him all these Bobby G style effects and whatnot, it doesn't make sense to me.
I apologize, I am wrong. However, in everything but keyword and WS he's a chapter master. Why create a unit with that statline with an obviously inferior WS? I just don't understand the point of making him +3. If you are going to give him all these Bobby G style effects and whatnot, it doesn't make sense to me.
He is not a chapter master. He imparts none of the benefits that CMs give. He is a souped up techmarine.
Daedalus81 wrote: So to point out - the -1 damage relic seems to be techmarine ONLY. If you want IFF, plus the relic, plus spells, plus reroll wounds you're going to need 4 characters in the ball.
400 or so points in characters.
A few Repulsors or Levis or w/e will clock in at 900.
And as stated you need Infiltrators, so at least 220 there. Another 85 for Stalkers to fill a battalion.
That leaves you with fewer than 400 points for the rest of your "army".
At BEST you're running 8CP with no regen.
I've been running double battalion since the codex was released. 4 charcters is fine.
I run Calgar/Tiggy/Lt/Tech marine
35 intercessors
and 6 dreads (redemptor and invictor)
Ironhands probably just want to run 2x executioner and 1 levithan with that same build (standard libby and their Special character which is probably about 60 points cheaper in total) a captain might be worth sneaking in over a libby or a LT also (IDK). Infiltrators are absolute trash - invictor dreads do their job so much better without sucking.
But then you're confounding the death bubble, which is the point.
Another 300 points would have to go to troops. So, ~600 in troops, 960 into the executioners and levi, 200 IFF, 50 relic techmarine, 88 libby leaves you with 100 points. Someone can pretty easily murder the rest of your army and leave the stupid bubble to fondle itself.
Infiltrators are to keep overwatch blocking units off the bubble. There will be lots of great builds, but the sentiment that IH is just going to rock some murder machine and not have trouble is off base, I think.
Respulsors are special - they require an 11 to charge from deep strike - you use them to screen your units - not the other way around. blood angels smash captain or something you just put intercessors in front of your units - there is not reason to pay the infiltrator tax to push units out another 3 inches. If warhammer had sideboards they would be useful but they are too expensive for what they do.
Spoletta wrote: IH will be good, but not with the parking lot.
After you start analyzing it, you discover that it simply doesn't work. You have to spend about 800 points in the heavy slots, which means bye bye to a brigade in a 1750 game. You cannot fit the iron father, another 2 HQ, 6 troops, 3 FA and 3 elite (where you probably want dreadnaughts) in 950 points.
You are forced to play a mono battalion list, and to spend 2 cp to get a chapter master, so you have a grand total of 6 cp.
You will have a decent death star in the middle of the table, but short ranged and low mobility (8" or less, no advancing). It doesn't even have all that firepower honestly. There are too many ways to play around it or to crush frontally.
IH will be really good when playing lots of vehicles in a scattered formation, thanks to the auto captain aura and mobility. The iron father will probably not get taken if it costs 200 points, one more redemptor drednaught is better and you want a librarian and some LTs. 5++ on vehicles isn't really that good, it's a +1 sv against -3 weapons when you are not in cover (which you should almost always be with mobile tanks).
I don't necessarily disagree with your point, I just disagree about the 1750. The only tournament I'm aware of that actually uses 1750 is GW's little fluff bunny thing they run and they only use 1750 because their TOs are too incompetent to see obvious slow play or too ineffective to do anything about it(or both).
Here is shrike for comparison. He's not as good as Feirros, but then again, he's the same guy, primarized and with a decent gun. Good thing it is a pistol so he can shoot if stuck in combat. 7 attacks on the charge with reroll to wound isn't really bad, plus I can still use my VV bomb of 25 models.
Edit: He used to be 150 points. I hope he doesn't go up of 175 now.
But then you're confounding the death bubble, which is the point.
Another 300 points would have to go to troops. So, ~600 in troops, 960 into the executioners and levi, 200 IFF, 50 relic techmarine, 88 libby leaves you with 100 points. Someone can pretty easily murder the rest of your army and leave the stupid bubble to fondle itself.
Infiltrators are to keep overwatch blocking units off the bubble. There will be lots of great builds, but the sentiment that IH is just going to rock some murder machine and not have trouble is off base, I think.
I understand, and even agree with your point, but to make this more efficient you'd probably not need to run Infiltrators. If you want to push back deep strikers you might use the Repulsors to do it. They have a native -2 to charge already.
This army is static, moves slow, relies on multiple character auras to achieve its aims, and concedes the board in favour of trying to provide ultra-hard to kill units. Someone running this will want to build in some kind of capability to spread out if they need to because if the game plan is to try and win a game with a death bubble like this, you won't. You'll be outplayed on objectives.
Here is shrike for comparison. He's not as good as Feirros, but then again, he's the same guy, primarized and with a decent gun. Good thing it is a pistol so he can shoot if stuck in combat. 7 attacks on the charge with reroll to wound isn't really bad, plus I can still use my VV bomb of 25 models.
Edit: He used to be 150 points. I hope he doesn't go up of 175 now.
He looks alright.
Though my main concern is if he still has Silent Stalker (now called Shadowmaster) as his baseline Warlord trait. That trait does not play well with Winged Deliverance - if you use him to shut down overwatch for another unit, they're now out of range for his aura, no?
Daedalus81 wrote: So to point out - the -1 damage relic seems to be techmarine ONLY. If you want IFF, plus the relic, plus spells, plus reroll wounds you're going to need 4 characters in the ball.
400 or so points in characters.
A few Repulsors or Levis or w/e will clock in at 900.
And as stated you need Infiltrators, so at least 220 there. Another 85 for Stalkers to fill a battalion.
That leaves you with fewer than 400 points for the rest of your "army".
At BEST you're running 8CP with no regen.
I've been running double battalion since the codex was released. 4 charcters is fine.
I run Calgar/Tiggy/Lt/Tech marine
35 intercessors
and 6 dreads (redemptor and invictor)
Ironhands probably just want to run 2x executioner and 1 levithan with that same build (standard libby and their Special character which is probably about 60 points cheaper in total) a captain might be worth sneaking in over a libby or a LT also (IDK). Infiltrators are absolute trash - invictor dreads do their job so much better without sucking.
But then you're confounding the death bubble, which is the point.
Another 300 points would have to go to troops. So, ~600 in troops, 960 into the executioners and levi, 200 IFF, 50 relic techmarine, 88 libby leaves you with 100 points. Someone can pretty easily murder the rest of your army and leave the stupid bubble to fondle itself.
Infiltrators are to keep overwatch blocking units off the bubble. There will be lots of great builds, but the sentiment that IH is just going to rock some murder machine and not have trouble is off base, I think.
Executioners are actually kinda gak tbh, even with IH buff. Too much investment for firepower you can get elsewhere easier. Also weird range-banding.
I'm also not a huge fan of running anything that requires the libby buff or CM rerolls because IH has a lot of options that don't need either of those. Run vendreds and/or contemptor mortis, no captain necessary, no librarian necessary(they all hit on 2s rerolling) you take Ironfather, 2 tech marines a leiutenant and 6 units of Sniper scouts(save 120pts over stalker intercessors for a unit that does the same job, just not quite as well)
650-700 pts for the double batt total, including characters. 900pts or so into the deathball(just about enough for two levis and two mortis/vendread), still leaves you 400pts for objective grabbers/linebreakers/backline deepstrikers/etc. It's also a faster bubble not being stuck moving 5" for the repulsor every turn.
Though my main concern is if he still has Silent Stalker (now called Shadowmaster) as his baseline Warlord trait. That trait does not play well with Winged Deliverance - if you use him to shut down overwatch for another unit, they're now out of range for his aura, no?
I guess so, but that was his problem before. I used to have a guy with him, usually a Lt. with teeth of terra, as the warlord with that trait, so he was the one soaking wet the overwatch first. Usually you make Shrike charge last for that same reason.
Edit: In this codex tho, maybe a Chaplain is better with the +2 to charge litany. Of course you must have the Chaplain on the table and drop Shrike and the VV escort around him.
Executioners are actually kinda gak tbh, even with IH buff. Too much investment for firepower you can get elsewhere easier. Also weird range-banding.
I'm also not a huge fan of running anything that requires the libby buff or CM rerolls because IH has a lot of options that don't need either of those. Run vendreds and/or contemptor mortis, no captain necessary, no librarian necessary(they all hit on 2s rerolling) you take Ironfather, 2 tech marines a leiutenant and 6 units of Sniper scouts(save 120pts over stalker intercessors for a unit that does the same job, just not quite as well)
650-700 pts for the double batt total, including characters. 900pts or so into the deathball(just about enough for two levis and two mortis/vendread), still leaves you 400pts for objective grabbers/linebreakers/backline deepstrikers/etc. It's also a faster bubble not being stuck moving 5" for the repulsor every turn.
That range band happens to be where the preferred targets actually are, so it doesn't seem weird at all to me.
Unless you think keeping armour behind infantry in 40k isn't a common choice
But you're wrong on the speed. You'd still be stuck moving 5'' for the Iron Father every turn.
Though my main concern is if he still has Silent Stalker (now called Shadowmaster) as his baseline Warlord trait. That trait does not play well with Winged Deliverance - if you use him to shut down overwatch for another unit, they're now out of range for his aura, no?
I guess so, but that was his problem before. I used to have a guy with him, usually a Lt. with teeth of terra, as the warlord with that trait, so he was the one soaking wet the overwatch first. Usually you make Shrike charge last for that same reason.
Edit: In this codex tho, maybe a Chaplain is better with the +2 to charge litany. Of course you must have the Chaplain on the table and drop Shrike and the VV escort around him.
Sure, but it's kind of a pain in the ass that his own warlord trait is so bass ackwards.
BrianDavion wrote: in an edition where bikes absolutely suck of course white scars will suck. just for example.
I thought people were saying they suck cause you have to make the army last til turn 3 to make sure they are actually doing their special doctrine stuff.
I think you'll see a fair bit of White Scars. They have good strats and relics, etc.. People will probably just skip units that require the doctrine, take good characters, maybe one hard-hitting deepstrike unit they can 3D6 charge 7" from reserves, and soup up the rest. There are gems in that book.
Iron Hands on the other hand will favour the pure list very heavily. Their super-doctrine is just universally good on basically everything. Dreads, Tanks, Flyers, but even stuff like Sniper Scouts, etc.. You can ball-up a Repulsor castle in a super-bubble of -1 damage, 5++, etc., etc.. or you can MSU it out, cover the table and let the in-built re-roll 1s, move-and-shoot, FNP, 5+ overwatch, etc.. carry you.
As far as "here're free rules that make stuff better", Iron Hands just adds to almost anything in the Codex. Even people who don't wanna go for the super-ball-of-shooty-indestructable-death, it's a solid buff for almost any build. White Scars (and presumably Raven Guard) get things you need to build for very specifically.
Oh yeah Im sure we'll see some WS, Ive considered them. But most of the complaining Ive heard was about their Doctrine.
Stevefamine wrote: Quick question - with this supplement will the Iron hands still have access to Space Marine Scouts and other units like Assault Terminators?
Yes, every unit in the SM codex is available to every chapter with a codex Supplement.
Xenomancers wrote: Respulsors are special - they require an 11 to charge from deep strike - you use them to screen your units - not the other way around. blood angels smash captain or something you just put intercessors in front of your units - there is not reason to pay the infiltrator tax to push units out another 3 inches. If warhammer had sideboards they would be useful but they are too expensive for what they do.
Fair point, but then you're only saving like 50 points for the double battalion.
Stevefamine wrote: Quick question - with this supplement will the Iron hands still have access to Space Marine Scouts and other units like Assault Terminators?
In terms of Dreadnoughts - are the basic Lascannon/Missile dreads or dual auto cannons still viable? or would I have to get the newer Dreads?
Yes the supplements just add onto codex space marines. They still get all the units from there.
Venerable dreads are very playable. They are kinda brittle units but still very good.
Spoletta wrote: IH will be good, but not with the parking lot.
After you start analyzing it, you discover that it simply doesn't work. You have to spend about 800 points in the heavy slots, which means bye bye to a brigade in a 1750 game. You cannot fit the iron father, another 2 HQ, 6 troops, 3 FA and 3 elite (where you probably want dreadnaughts) in 950 points.
You are forced to play a mono battalion list, and to spend 2 cp to get a chapter master, so you have a grand total of 6 cp.
You will have a decent death star in the middle of the table, but short ranged and low mobility (8" or less, no advancing). It doesn't even have all that firepower honestly. There are too many ways to play around it or to crush frontally.
IH will be really good when playing lots of vehicles in a scattered formation, thanks to the auto captain aura and mobility. The iron father will probably not get taken if it costs 200 points, one more redemptor drednaught is better and you want a librarian and some LTs. 5++ on vehicles isn't really that good, it's a +1 sv against -3 weapons when you are not in cover (which you should almost always be with mobile tanks).
I don't necessarily disagree with your point, I just disagree about the 1750. The only tournament I'm aware of that actually uses 1750 is GW's little fluff bunny thing they run and they only use 1750 because their TOs are too incompetent to see obvious slow play or too ineffective to do anything about it(or both).
That's the only official event though, so if someone says "GW is incompetent because it made x and y" i answer "No, with GW rules this cannot happen". You cannot judge balance with your personal house rules, even if they are widely used.
By the way, 1750 is used quite a lot in Europe for regular pick up games and local tournaments. (i.e. 99% of the games being played)
Just watching the warhammer streams atm. Feirros is 6pl and 110 points looking at the datasheets and what they've shown. We need to get proper confirmation but if so that's nuts!
MistaGav wrote: Just watching the warhammer streams atm. Feirros is 6pl and 110 points looking at the datasheets and what they've shown. We need to get proper confirmation but if so that's nuts!
Well, that's not great. He has way more buffs than 60 points worth over a techmarine considering +2A / +3W / +1T / 5+++. They certainly goofed on that on one.
He'll shine pretty bright until CA of 2020 unless they see fit to hit him in Spring FAQ.
MistaGav wrote: Just watching the warhammer streams atm. Feirros is 6pl and 110 points looking at the datasheets and what they've shown. We need to get proper confirmation but if so that's nuts!
Hope not. I don't want a 180 points Shrike against a 110p Feirros
MistaGav wrote: Just watching the warhammer streams atm. Feirros is 6pl and 110 points looking at the datasheets and what they've shown. We need to get proper confirmation but if so that's nuts!
That would be extremely strange and disappointing.
According to the recent Iron Hands supplement preview from Warhammer Twitch, Iron Hands stratagem "March of the Ancients" can give CHARACTER keyword to a dreadnought.
This further unlocks relics and stratagems that apply to characters.
The previewers specifically mentioned a combination of CHARACTER dreadnought and the relic Gorgon's Chain.
Gorgon's Chain gives the bearer 4+ invulnerable save, and subtracts 1 from the wound rolls of enemy ranged attack targeting the bearer.
Then there is the technomancy power manifested at 5+ that heals d3 lost wounds of a vehicle.
And of course there is the already infamous Duty Eternal......the supplement will open up various combos.
P.S.
One of the Iron Hands specific warlord trait confers 5+ feel no pain roll to the bearer.
This, of course, can be given to the CHARACTER dreadnought.
Sagittarii Orientalis wrote: According to the recent Iron Hands supplement preview from Warhammer Twitch, Iron Hands stratagem "March of the Ancients" can give CHARACTER keyword to a dreadnought.
This further unlocks relics and stratagems that apply to characters.
The previewers specifically mentioned a combination of CHARACTER dreadnought and the relic Gorgon's Chain.
Gorgon's Chain gives the bearer 4+ invulnerable save, and subtracts 1 from the wound rolls of enemy ranged attack targeting the bearer.
Then there is the technomancy power manifested at 5+ that heals d3 lost wounds of a vehicle.
And of course there is the already infamous Duty Eternal......the supplement will open up various combos.
I'm 100% going to run a Chaplain Dread and make an Ironclad a Character with that March of the Ancients. Target me now
MistaGav wrote: Just watching the warhammer streams atm. Feirros is 6pl and 110 points looking at the datasheets and what they've shown. We need to get proper confirmation but if so that's nuts!
Well, that's not great. He has way more buffs than 60 points worth over a techmarine considering +2A / +3W / +1T / 5+++. They certainly goofed on that on one.
He'll shine pretty bright until CA of 2020 unless they see fit to hit him in Spring FAQ.
This is leauge of Ironhads now dude. This is what GW does. They actually think we are going to buy all new models to paint them black. Not happening.
Sterling191 wrote: Dreadnoughts still have the Vehicle keyword. They cannot take relics.
The previewers specifically mentioned the combination of CHARACTER dreadnought and the relic.
Either there is a clause in the supplement which allows the players to bypass the restriction you mentioned, or the previewers were ignorant of the rules.
I think we will see clearer picture once youtube videos previewing the supplement are uploaded in a day or two.
Sterling191 wrote: Dreadnoughts still have the Vehicle keyword. They cannot take relics.
The previewers specifically mentioned the combination of CHARACTER dreadnought and the relic.
Either there is a clause in the supplement which allows the players to bypass the restriction you mentioned, or the previewers were ignorant of the rules.
I think we will see clearer picture once youtube videos previewing the supplement are uploaded in a day or two.
Was this a GW community team preview? They get mechanical and rules gak wrong all the time.
Sterling191 wrote: Dreadnoughts still have the Vehicle keyword. They cannot take relics.
The previewers specifically mentioned the combination of CHARACTER dreadnought and the relic.
Either there is a clause in the supplement which allows the players to bypass the restriction you mentioned, or the previewers were ignorant of the rules.
I think we will see clearer picture once youtube videos previewing the supplement are uploaded in a day or two.
Yea I wouldn't trust GW employees on rules unless they are on the rules team.
Iron Hands have been a strong choice for half of the previous three editions' worth of codices.
I think they were the best chapter (short of Grav Cent shenanigans) in 6th and the first book of 7th, and WS was the best in the Gladius book and UM (due to Roboute) was the best chapter in the first 8th book.
MistaGav wrote: Just watching the warhammer streams atm. Feirros is 6pl and 110 points looking at the datasheets and what they've shown. We need to get proper confirmation but if so that's nuts!
Well, that's not great. He has way more buffs than 60 points worth over a techmarine considering +2A / +3W / +1T / 5+++. They certainly goofed on that on one.
He'll shine pretty bright until CA of 2020 unless they see fit to hit him in Spring FAQ.
This is leauge of Ironhads now dude. This is what GW does. They actually think we are going to buy all new models to paint them black. Not happening.
GW didn't do anything except try and make a characterful codex for IH (and will be victims of their success). There is no incentive for them to go ham with IH and not the other codexes.
At this point it seems like either GW did not factor in feedback from playtesters (most likely) or there is some limiting factor we're not aware of (unlikely).
MistaGav wrote: Just watching the warhammer streams atm. Feirros is 6pl and 110 points looking at the datasheets and what they've shown. We need to get proper confirmation but if so that's nuts!
Well, that's not great. He has way more buffs than 60 points worth over a techmarine considering +2A / +3W / +1T / 5+++. They certainly goofed on that on one.
He'll shine pretty bright until CA of 2020 unless they see fit to hit him in Spring FAQ.
This is leauge of Ironhads now dude. This is what GW does. They actually think we are going to buy all new models to paint them black. Not happening.
GW didn't do anything except try and make a characterful codex for IH (and will be victims of their success). There is no incentive for them to go ham with IH and not the other codexes.
At this point it seems like either GW did not factor in feedback from playtesters (most likely) or there is some limiting factor we're not aware of (unlikely).
Supposed playtesters that they don't even listen to their feedback? That sounds like unplaytested to me.
Sterling191 wrote: Dreadnoughts still have the Vehicle keyword. They cannot take relics.
They cannot take Chapter Relics from Codex: Space Marines. Vehicles may take relics from other sources they are permitted to take from.
There is no rule saying "Vehicles cannot take relics."
That line is also in WS and UM's rules, so we will see.
Though, the UM/WS relics also say to treat them for all rules purposes as Chapter Relics, so...
Which brings us right back to...
Sterling191 wrote: Dreadnoughts still have the Vehicle keyword. They cannot take relics.
Again, there is no rule that says "Vehicles cannot take relics." Until we see the IH supplement, there is nothing to say the Dreadnought can or can't take a relic either way.
Supposed playtesters that they don't even listen to their feedback? That sounds like unplaytested to me.
*shrug* Either way there is a break down in the process, that GW needs to address, if there is nothing level-setting this codex. I'm all for new content, but they can't be doing a seesaw like this.
I hate to say it but the true benifits of Ironhands is actually their flyers, no damage table and no penalty for moving and a captains reroll for free.
Ironhands are still the chapter to beat IMHO, also surely they can be serious at 110 points for forgeboss, in traditional GW style they have so overcorrected they went from unquestioning bad to the new meta breaking list in one leap.
Ice_can wrote: I hate to say it but the true benifits of Ironhands is actually their flyers, no damage table and no penalty for moving and a captains reroll for free.
Ironhands are still the chapter to beat IMHO, also surely they can be serious at 110 points for forgeboss, in traditional GW style they have so overcorrected they went from unquestioning bad to the new meta breaking list in one leap.
IH flyers are really good, no doubt, but they do suffer from not being able to benefit from IH's awesome aura abilities for very long. A blind go second list with IH flyers could be hilariously strong.
Executioners are actually kinda gak tbh, even with IH buff. Too much investment for firepower you can get elsewhere easier. Also weird range-banding.
I'm also not a huge fan of running anything that requires the libby buff or CM rerolls because IH has a lot of options that don't need either of those. Run vendreds and/or contemptor mortis, no captain necessary, no librarian necessary(they all hit on 2s rerolling) you take Ironfather, 2 tech marines a leiutenant and 6 units of Sniper scouts(save 120pts over stalker intercessors for a unit that does the same job, just not quite as well)
650-700 pts for the double batt total, including characters. 900pts or so into the deathball(just about enough for two levis and two mortis/vendread), still leaves you 400pts for objective grabbers/linebreakers/backline deepstrikers/etc. It's also a faster bubble not being stuck moving 5" for the repulsor every turn.
That range band happens to be where the preferred targets actually are, so it doesn't seem weird at all to me.
Unless you think keeping armour behind infantry in 40k isn't a common choice
But you're wrong on the speed. You'd still be stuck moving 5'' for the Iron Father every turn.
Though my main concern is if he still has Silent Stalker (now called Shadowmaster) as his baseline Warlord trait. That trait does not play well with Winged Deliverance - if you use him to shut down overwatch for another unit, they're now out of range for his aura, no?
I guess so, but that was his problem before. I used to have a guy with him, usually a Lt. with teeth of terra, as the warlord with that trait, so he was the one soaking wet the overwatch first. Usually you make Shrike charge last for that same reason.
Edit: In this codex tho, maybe a Chaplain is better with the +2 to charge litany. Of course you must have the Chaplain on the table and drop Shrike and the VV escort around him.
Sure, but it's kind of a pain in the ass that his own warlord trait is so bass ackwards.
Iron father can run. Losing his 3 shot HB is negligable.
And it's interesting that you think 18" is 'where the real targets actually are' because that's where you need to be to not be wasting shots. Apparently you enjoy hanging your overpriced tank's arse in the wind.
Not my preferred strat but more power to ya.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sagittarii Orientalis wrote: According to the recent Iron Hands supplement preview from Warhammer Twitch, Iron Hands stratagem "March of the Ancients" can give CHARACTER keyword to a dreadnought.
This further unlocks relics and stratagems that apply to characters.
The previewers specifically mentioned a combination of CHARACTER dreadnought and the relic Gorgon's Chain.
Gorgon's Chain gives the bearer 4+ invulnerable save, and subtracts 1 from the wound rolls of enemy ranged attack targeting the bearer.
Then there is the technomancy power manifested at 5+ that heals d3 lost wounds of a vehicle.
And of course there is the already infamous Duty Eternal......the supplement will open up various combos.
P.S.
One of the Iron Hands specific warlord trait confers 5+ feel no pain roll to the bearer.
This, of course, can be given to the CHARACTER dreadnought.
Relics generally can't go on vehicles. IH might be different, but the CSM ones will not be usable.
Spoletta wrote: IH will be good, but not with the parking lot.
After you start analyzing it, you discover that it simply doesn't work. You have to spend about 800 points in the heavy slots, which means bye bye to a brigade in a 1750 game. You cannot fit the iron father, another 2 HQ, 6 troops, 3 FA and 3 elite (where you probably want dreadnaughts) in 950 points.
You are forced to play a mono battalion list, and to spend 2 cp to get a chapter master, so you have a grand total of 6 cp.
You will have a decent death star in the middle of the table, but short ranged and low mobility (8" or less, no advancing). It doesn't even have all that firepower honestly. There are too many ways to play around it or to crush frontally.
IH will be really good when playing lots of vehicles in a scattered formation, thanks to the auto captain aura and mobility. The iron father will probably not get taken if it costs 200 points, one more redemptor drednaught is better and you want a librarian and some LTs. 5++ on vehicles isn't really that good, it's a +1 sv against -3 weapons when you are not in cover (which you should almost always be with mobile tanks).
I don't necessarily disagree with your point, I just disagree about the 1750. The only tournament I'm aware of that actually uses 1750 is GW's little fluff bunny thing they run and they only use 1750 because their TOs are too incompetent to see obvious slow play or too ineffective to do anything about it(or both).
That's the only official event though, so if someone says "GW is incompetent because it made x and y" i answer "No, with GW rules this cannot happen". You cannot judge balance with your personal house rules, even if they are widely used.
By the way, 1750 is used quite a lot in Europe for regular pick up games and local tournaments. (i.e. 99% of the games being played)
I'm talking about how GW changed the tournament to 1750 because they let an ork player slow play a game so that it ended turn 2 and then won the tournament. It has nothing to do with balance or rules, just gak TOing.
Also, cool. So for europe 1750 matters. For NA it does not.
Sterling191 wrote: Dreadnoughts still have the Vehicle keyword. They cannot take relics.
They cannot take Chapter Relics from Codex: Space Marines. Vehicles may take relics from other sources they are permitted to take from.
There is no rule saying "Vehicles cannot take relics."
That line is also in WS and UM's rules, so we will see.
Though, the UM/WS relics also say to treat them for all rules purposes as Chapter Relics, so...
Which brings us right back to...
Sterling191 wrote: Dreadnoughts still have the Vehicle keyword. They cannot take relics.
Again, there is no rule that says "Vehicles cannot take relics." Until we see the IH supplement, there is nothing to say the Dreadnought can or can't take a relic either way.
There is a rule that says "Vehicles cannot take relics", it is in the chapter relics rules of the space marine codex.
It is currently restated in both chapter relics and special issue wargear of the 2 currently released supplements, and both of those sections are very clear that the same section ate considered Chapter Relics "for all rules purposes".
So... Depending on several factors, the Iron Hands supplement will have to have changes.
C:SM says "Named characters and Vehicle models cannot be given any of the following relics."
So it is correct that a dreadnought character can never take Teeth of Terra or the Armor Indomitus.
There is no 40k rule that says "vehicles may never take relics."
So it seems likely C:IH will allow vehicle characters to take some of their chapter relics, and/or their special-issue wargear.
They may even have a way to get a WL trait from Hero of the Chapter.
Just pretend they are mini-knights for now, and we should know for sure tomorrow when reviews drop.
Daedalus81 wrote: So to point out - the -1 damage relic seems to be techmarine ONLY. If you want IFF, plus the relic, plus spells, plus reroll wounds you're going to need 4 characters in the ball.
400 or so points in characters.
A few Repulsors or Levis or w/e will clock in at 900.
And as stated you need Infiltrators, so at least 220 there. Another 85 for Stalkers to fill a battalion.
That leaves you with fewer than 400 points for the rest of your "army".
At BEST you're running 8CP with no regen.
I've been running double battalion since the codex was released. 4 charcters is fine.
I run Calgar/Tiggy/Lt/Tech marine
35 intercessors
and 6 dreads (redemptor and invictor)
Ironhands probably just want to run 2x executioner and 1 levithan with that same build (standard libby and their Special character which is probably about 60 points cheaper in total) a captain might be worth sneaking in over a libby or a LT also (IDK). Infiltrators are absolute trash - invictor dreads do their job so much better without sucking.
But then you're confounding the death bubble, which is the point.
Another 300 points would have to go to troops. So, ~600 in troops, 960 into the executioners and levi, 200 IFF, 50 relic techmarine, 88 libby leaves you with 100 points. Someone can pretty easily murder the rest of your army and leave the stupid bubble to fondle itself.
Infiltrators are to keep overwatch blocking units off the bubble. There will be lots of great builds, but the sentiment that IH is just going to rock some murder machine and not have trouble is off base, I think.
Executioners are actually kinda gak tbh, even with IH buff. Too much investment for firepower you can get elsewhere easier. Also weird range-banding.
I'm also not a huge fan of running anything that requires the libby buff or CM rerolls because IH has a lot of options that don't need either of those. Run vendreds and/or contemptor mortis, no captain necessary, no librarian necessary(they all hit on 2s rerolling) you take Ironfather, 2 tech marines a leiutenant and 6 units of Sniper scouts(save 120pts over stalker intercessors for a unit that does the same job, just not quite as well)
650-700 pts for the double batt total, including characters. 900pts or so into the deathball(just about enough for two levis and two mortis/vendread), still leaves you 400pts for objective grabbers/linebreakers/backline deepstrikers/etc. It's also a faster bubble not being stuck moving 5" for the repulsor every turn.
Executioners are not heavily armed transports. They are MBTs that happens to be able to carry troops.
5" or less movement is exactly what the executioner wants to be doing: they have the Russ grinding advance type rule.
Weird range-bands are a little less weird: it is layers of increased "protection" and relentless advance.
Bluflash wrote: C:SM says "Named characters and Vehicle models cannot be given any of the following relics."
So it is correct that a dreadnought character can never take Teeth of Terra or the Armor Indomitus.
There is no 40k rule that says "vehicles may never take relics."
So it seems likely C:IH will allow vehicle characters to take some of their chapter relics, and/or their special-issue wargear.
They may even have a way to get a WL trait from Hero of the Chapter.
Just pretend they are mini-knights for now, and we should know for sure tomorrow when reviews drop.
Yeah. But they are in some cases better than mini-knights.
Making them characters gives them all access to heroic intervention and fight-in-death (and 1 attack from the strat). Some are still below 8 wounds and become untargetable (.e.g Ironclad) and can carry things like the -1 damage aura relic on a bigger base. Etc.. There's nasty combos here.
Or just go ham on a character Leviathan with -1 to wound or -1 damage (or both, if buffed by a nearby friend), Duty Eternal and let him eat everything the opponent has.
Kithail wrote: Also you guys need to think of the future. I frankly think we will see loyalist primarks. But no Ferrus Manus. Ergo, Iron hands are powerful right now but will fall behind eventually when Jaghatai, Corvus, Vulkan and someone else hits the circuit.
There's two main fan theories here - the first is that people keep finding bits of him, and he'll return as a clone / dreadnought / AI copy. The second is that
Spoiler:
his spirit lead the Emperor's Deamons / Legion of the Damned during the Webway War, and he'll return that way.
How are all of those buffs, that bulky statline and hard hitting weapons not worth that? A 5++ alone is an incredibly powerful buff, and the ability to autoheal 3 wounds on a vehicle gives some hilarious opennings, like using the stratagem to double it for 6.
Yeah. But they are in some cases better than mini-knights.
Making them characters gives them all access to heroic intervention and fight-in-death (and 1 attack from the strat). Some are still below 8 wounds and become untargetable (.e.g Ironclad) and can carry things like the -1 damage aura relic on a bigger base. Etc.. There's nasty combos here.
Or just go ham on a character Leviathan with -1 to wound or -1 damage (or both, if buffed by a nearby friend), Duty Eternal and let him eat everything the opponent has.
He gets +3W and a 5++/5+++ on top of +1T and more attacks with an excellent weapon. He always heals 3.
This is all easily worth 60 points more than a techmarine and THEN we have to consider his 5++ bubble that is within and not fully within, like orks, as well as a free prescience.
If his statline is 60 points more than a Techmarine that's still only 105 points. In what Universe is a better Kustom Force Field and a Prescience worth 95 points?
Well... A techmarine(basis of his statline) is 45 points + 10 for a heavy bolter, +5 for power axe(2 servo arms are free). That is 60 points, plus your expected +60 points = 120.
He has -1" of movement, and cannot ride an impulsor/ counts as 2 models in a repulsor variant due to gravis armor(which is also where one of his wounds and his +1t comes from)
Does Ferrious have the normal captain reroll aura or does he just give a 5++ and the signum array? If he only has those two abilities and the 3 wound repair then I can see the 6PL (110 points still looks a bit thin).
Also, I'm kinda annoyed how the one IH character doesn't really believe the flesh is weak. It's a stupid shtick on some level and I wish GW gave more attention to the other IH aspects, the way IW use mechanical augmentations a lot but it isn't core to their philosophy. But if they are going to go with that then at least have the face of the chapter believe in it. It would be like if Calgar didn't follow the codex or Shrike didn't believe in stealth. Hopefully the community article isn't representing things correctly and the supplement will give a more nuanced take on Ferrios and the chapter
Heres all I gotta say. Nerfing Gman is not necessary when you release 2 auras which are probably better overall for the cost than the gman aura. -1 damage 5++ with 6+FNP is straight up the most durable stuff in the game to throw on a t8 profile which marines have in endless numbers.
Plus - the purpose of nerfing gman was not to nerf and army that doesn't win events. The purpose should have been to fix overall internal balance within marine codex (which I support) Ironhands are so effing stronger than other chapters at this point that it makes gman look like a peep show. I doubt people would have been running gman as top build if tactics applied to vehicles...seriously.
Dub executioner and a leviathan with ferrios a TM a LT and a libby and a bunch of stalker bolter intercessors is going to be unstoppable and far and above what all chapters can do by far.
That is 3 heavy dakka units hitting on 2's rerolling 1's to hit and wound. All getting a 5++ 6+++ at a minimum as a save and reducing all damage by 1 and acting at full profile until 2 wounds (thanks to bs2+ ability) The levi will be taking half damage -1 (depending on the interpretation making a las cannon max 6-1 = 5/2 = 2.5 = 3. Unless you roll a 6 a lascannon does 2 damage on a 5 or less.
For example - Ultrmarines leviathan takes 6 damage from a lascannon on a 6. An Ironhjands takes max 3 and probably 2 after FNPs. Bascailly 3x harder to kill.
So far from balanced it can not be defended.
Gman for 400 points at best doubled your damage for most of your army. For 150 filling mandatory hq's all your vehicals in the aura are at a minimum 2.5x harder to kill....
It is quite easy to see the scaling difference. Not sure how you nerf a broken aura in an attempt to create internal balance by creating more broken auras than the one you nerfed.
Also - it is clear to anyone experienced. Defensive buffs are better than offensive ones.
Eipi10 wrote: Does Ferrious have the normal captain reroll aura or does he just give a 5++ and the signum array? If he only has those two abilities and the 3 wound repair then I can see the 6PL (110 points still looks a bit thin).
Also, I'm kinda annoyed how the one IH character doesn't really believe the flesh is weak. It's a stupid shtick on some level and I wish GW gave more attention to the other IH aspects, the way IW use mechanical augmentations a lot but it isn't core to their philosophy. But if they are going to go with that then at least have the face of the chapter believe in it. It would be like if Calgar didn't follow the codex or Shrike didn't believe in stealth. Hopefully the community article isn't representing things correctly and the supplement will give a more nuanced take on Ferrios and the chapter
the last time they got a supplement they focused on an iron father who didn't really belive eaither. (same one maybe?) it is a bit of an odd choice, that comes off like "yeah this is such a flying rodent gak stupid thing we can't even write a char who belives it"
As someone who has played iron hands for a long time, I don't mind an ironfather that has a different view point on the whole bionic things, they actually go into it a bit in the Raukaan codex supplement. Personally i think it makes them a little less one dimensional. Even Ferrus wasn't a huge fan of over use of bionics.
the more I see of Iron Hands the more I wonder wtfGW's thinking with them.
they have proably the most OP chapter tactiv (by the fact that the devs didn't seem constrained to "two effects" like every other chapter tactic) and what I'v seen of their strats, psykic powers etc looks pretty nuts.
Gravis armor is where one of his wounds comes from, is what I said.
The other is part of his special character-ness.
Xenogears: The 2 auras aren't from the same model. 5++ is from the special character, and -1D is from a relic that has to go on a different character.
The Executioner slow advance with the Iron father and a second character(which is only rumored to be techmarine only at this point, which may be conflated from the article tactical suggestion), that I mentioned earlier is going to cost at around 800 points as a very limited section of your army. then you need troops(3 units for Battalion), and whatever else you can fit into your remaining points after spending 1005 points on just getting battle forged.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Glad to see Xeno learned nothing from the "woe is me Ultras are gonna suck" episode before the Ultramarine supplement hit.
I learned a lot actually.
Things I learned.
All the bonus that Ultras get turn 2 - Ironhands get turn one with a reroll ones to hit while stacking with the dev doctrine which is easy as hell to do. In fact its hard to stack around the tactical doct and win games.
Iron hands chapter tactic is superior by a large factor to ultramarines tactic.
Ironhands auras make vehicles 2x-3x more durable than ultramarines vehicles vs anti tank weapons.
ergo - the armies aren't even close in power level. It is readily apparent.
I pray for your BT. They are likely to get a white scars type book.
Elfric wrote: A Big Mek in Mega Armour, PK and KFF is 119 points. Iron Father is WAY better and 9 points cheaper
I don't know about "Way" better. Mega Armor is suboptimal for a Big Mek to begin with, but besides that, consider that the KFF buffs orks, who generally lack good armor. IF buffs Marines, who will only even notice the buff when facing AP-3 or better.
IF is still better, but not by leagues.
Elfric wrote: A Big Mek in Mega Armour, PK and KFF is 119 points. Iron Father is WAY better and 9 points cheaper
I don't know about "Way" better. Mega Armor is suboptimal for a Big Mek to begin with, but besides that, consider that the KFF buffs orks, who generally lack good armor. IF buffs Marines, who will only even notice the buff when facing AP-3 or better.
IF is still better, but not by leagues.
Elfric is absolutely correct. The Iron Father is better in every respect and cheaper. The comparison is embarrassing honestly.
Elfric wrote: A Big Mek in Mega Armour, PK and KFF is 119 points. Iron Father is WAY better and 9 points cheaper
I don't know about "Way" better. Mega Armor is suboptimal for a Big Mek to begin with, but besides that, consider that the KFF buffs orks, who generally lack good armor. IF buffs Marines, who will only even notice the buff when facing AP-3 or better.
IF is still better, but not by leagues.
Elfric is absolutely correct. The Iron Father is better in every respect and cheaper. The comparison is embarrassing honestly.
This release is insane.
No, he is not better in every respect. A 5+ invuln on Orks offers more advantage than a 5+ invuln on marines.
Elfric wrote: A Big Mek in Mega Armour, PK and KFF is 119 points. Iron Father is WAY better and 9 points cheaper
I don't know about "Way" better. Mega Armor is suboptimal for a Big Mek to begin with, but besides that, consider that the KFF buffs orks, who generally lack good armor. IF buffs Marines, who will only even notice the buff when facing AP-3 or better.
IF is still better, but not by leagues.
Elfric is absolutely correct. The Iron Father is better in every respect and cheaper. The comparison is embarrassing honestly.
This release is insane.
No, he is not better in every respect. A 5+ invuln on Orks offers more advantage than a 5+ invuln on marines.
I'm sorry, but if you want to go down this rabbit hole a 5++ is actually MORE valuable on more expensive models aka Marines.
He's embarrassingly better and I hope GW sort their balance issues out in CA.
Elfric wrote: A Big Mek in Mega Armour, PK and KFF is 119 points. Iron Father is WAY better and 9 points cheaper
I don't know about "Way" better. Mega Armor is suboptimal for a Big Mek to begin with, but besides that, consider that the KFF buffs orks, who generally lack good armor. IF buffs Marines, who will only even notice the buff when facing AP-3 or better.
IF is still better, but not by leagues.
Elfric is absolutely correct. The Iron Father is better in every respect and cheaper. The comparison is embarrassing honestly.
This release is insane.
No, he is not better in every respect. A 5+ invuln on Orks offers more advantage than a 5+ invuln on marines.
I'm sorry, but if you want to go down this rabbit hole a 5++ is actually MORE valuable on more expensive models aka Marines.
He's embarrassingly better and I hope GW sort their balance issues out in CA.
I definitely think he's better, but there are two things to consider:
One, a Mega Armor big mek is a suboptimal big mek. Part of the utility of the build is that you only have to pay for what you're going to use, and most of the time you don't need the extra armor on your Big Mek. A Big Mek with a KFF and without mega armor is only 75pts and provides almost exactly the same utility to your army.
Two, 5++ is only more valuable on more expensive models if it's going to provide value to those models. A 5++ will provide a better save to almost the entire ork codex outside out of the box, even if those orks are in cover, and against AP-2 weapons for everything except mega armor and dreads. A 5++ for marines, on the other hand, will provide very little utility except against high-AP weapons, especially when in cover. When you bring a KFF, you expect to roll that save every time you use the KFF.
You need Lascannon AP in order to make the 5++ relevant against the average marine, Meltagun AP to make the 5++ relevant against marines in cover, and Volcano Cannon AP to make the 5++ matter against armored marines (like Leviathans or Centurions) in cover. I rarely roll worse than 5+ with my marines. It happens often enough to be useful, sure, but not so often that it's going to be totally devastating.
The reason I think Feirros is powerful is because of his Signum, with his buffed repair roll, above-average shooting, and the 5++ being small additional benefits on top which combined make him so powerful. It's the 2+ BS irrespective of damage charts, which stacks with Iron Hands always getting re-rolls on 1s for our best weapons, which by my estimation is worth half his points all by itself. Unless there are penalties on the roll, any unit he chooses to buff will practically be autohitting, which is very good.
ironfather0 wrote: As someone who has played iron hands for a long time, I don't mind an ironfather that has a different view point on the whole bionic things, they actually go into it a bit in the Raukaan codex supplement. Personally i think it makes them a little less one dimensional. Even Ferrus wasn't a huge fan of over use of bionics.
Any particular section from the Raukaan Supplement that stands out?
I'm not bothered by the fact that he had a different outlook on it than the rest of the IH, I'm bothered by the fact the GW won't/can't release a character that goes full "the flesh is weak." If they did, people would see that it didn't sell well and that would be a tacit admission that the Iron Hand's chief philosophy is boring and stupid. Basically what Brian says:
BrianDavion wrote: the last time they got a supplement they focused on an iron father who didn't really belive eaither. (same one maybe?) it is a bit of an odd choice, that comes off like "yeah this is such a flying rodent gak stupid thing we can't even write a char who belives it"
I wish they would start selling the Iron Hands as a "despise the weak" chapter, more social darwinists than cyborgists. A minority want go full bionic, but most are just trying to better themselves, no matter the cost. "The flesh is weak" can still be a battle cry and they can still cut off a hand in mimicry of Ferrus, but making them robomarines in any key aspect is a waste of a first founding chapter.
I can’t remember the section off the top of my head. I think a full flesh is weak character would sell good too. I like both flavors and I would like to assemble an iron Hands army that follows the teachings of Stronos and Feirros, and I would also like to make one who follows more like Kristos. Some of the chapter is going the route you mentioned you wanted them to go, that’s kind of what Stronos and Feirros teach
Nitro Zeus wrote: Seems nobody learned their lesson from the last time a release was prematurely declared OP.
I'm not sure about a release but the last time I recall something declared OP it was the Kelermorph. You know - the character that features in 100% of competitive GSC lists, often in multiples and is universally regarded as too points efficient. That guy.
The Iron Father is objectively better by a large margin than the equivalent unit from other factions, this isn't an opinion, it is a fact. He's cheaper, has better damage output, better buffs/heals and is more resilient. There is no way in which he is worse.
The Iron Father will feature in 100% of competitive IH lists and if GW are in any way interested in balance (instead of just shifting new Marine models) they will being the equivalent from other factions in line with this character or bring this character down to the standard level. It is a joke that this got through testing when units like the Megamek and Tech Priest exist.
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Waaaghpower wrote: I definitely think he's better, but there are two things to consider:
Spoiler:
One, a Mega Armor big mek is a suboptimal big mek. Part of the utility of the build is that you only have to pay for what you're going to use, and most of the time you don't need the extra armor on your Big Mek. A Big Mek with a KFF and without mega armor is only 75pts and provides almost exactly the same utility to your army.
Two, 5++ is only more valuable on more expensive models if it's going to provide value to those models. A 5++ will provide a better save to almost the entire ork codex outside out of the box, even if those orks are in cover, and against AP-2 weapons for everything except mega armor and dreads. A 5++ for marines, on the other hand, will provide very little utility except against high-AP weapons, especially when in cover. When you bring a KFF, you expect to roll that save every time you use the KFF.
You need Lascannon AP in order to make the 5++ relevant against the average marine, Meltagun AP to make the 5++ relevant against marines in cover, and Volcano Cannon AP to make the 5++ matter against armored marines (like Leviathans or Centurions) in cover. I rarely roll worse than 5+ with my marines. It happens often enough to be useful, sure, but not so often that it's going to be totally devastating.
The reason I think Feirros is powerful is because of his Signum, with his buffed repair roll, above-average shooting, and the 5++ being small additional benefits on top which combined make him so powerful. It's the 2+ BS irrespective of damage charts, which stacks with Iron Hands always getting re-rolls on 1s for our best weapons, which by my estimation is worth half his points all by itself. Unless there are penalties on the roll, any unit he chooses to buff will practically be autohitting, which is very good.
You think he's better then immediately make excuses as to why that's OK. It's not OK. It is utterly imbalanced.
And your points of contention are completely bogus - KFF Meks can no longer be taken in tournament play due to the legends bull gak and a 5++ is literally more valuable on a more expensive model (marine models are almost exclusively more expensive than Ork models). Not to mention you don't stand your 5++ bubble repairbot next to standard marines, you stand him next to vehicles, that tend to get shot with lascannon and melta AP and so absolutely benefit from the invuln save.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I'm not sure about a release but the last time I recall something declared OP it was the Kelermorph.
Didnt you call the whole of GSC broken, Kelermorph too, as well as the buggys, and that is a prety good example of why you should probably should ease up? the Kelermorph isn't even close to breaking the game like some said
"""You know - the character that features in 100% of competitive GSC lists, often in multiples and is universally regarded as too points efficient. That guy."""
two lists with GSC placed at GT's over the weekend, the one that got highest did not have a Kelermorph He's not even in 100% of competitive lists this week, let alone since release
An Actual Englishman wrote: I'm not sure about a release but the last time I recall something declared OP it was the Kelermorph.
Didnt you call the whole of GSC broken, Kelermorph too, as well as the buggys, and that is a prety good example of why you should probably should ease up? the Kelermorph isn't even close to breaking the game like some said
Nope. I said GSC were clearly a top tier army (would you look at that) and certain options they have, just like this one, are simply better at their job than the equivalent from other factions. Until the assassin buff the Keller was the best assassin in the game bar none. The Keller is also due a nerf. It features in a very high proportion of lists and is clearly too points efficient.
two lists with GSC placed at GT's over the weekend, the one that got highest did not have a Kelermorph He's not even in 100% of competitive lists this week, let alone since release
95% then. Do you know how often it features in lists that podium? Have you gone through the stats? I have, its a very, very high proportion.
wait wait wait, a Megamek with KFF is a INDEX Option? not sure why you're even making the comparison, we know the priority GW has in keeping index options compeitive is somewhere between low and non-existant, hence the move to legends status for most of it
wait wait wait, a Megamek with KFF is a INDEX Option? not sure why you're even making the comparison, we know the priority GW has in keeping index options compeitive is somewhere between low and non-existant, hence the move to legends status for most of it
Megamek is not index.
Meagarmored bigmek with kff is available normally.
BrianDavion wrote: wait wait wait, a Megamek with KFF is a INDEX Option? not sure why you're even making the comparison, we know the priority GW has in keeping index options compeitive is somewhere between low and non-existant, hence the move to legends status for most of it
No. We are talking about the Index standard Mek with KFF, the MegaMek with KFF is a codex entry and it is that which compares so poorly to the Iron Father.
If you're arguing that we shouldn't compare certain models because they will be updated at some point in the future to no longer be useable in the same way, I don't really know what to say.
KFF Meks without Mega Armor are still legal until Legends is officially released. By the time that happens, any number of other changes could also have possibly occured.
As for the Iron Father, I'm arguing (as I said a couple times) that he's very good, but not overwhelming shoot-the-moon uncomparably good. He gives durability buffs to an army already flush with durability buffs, which can make IH very difficult to face with traditional point-and-shoot tactics, but does little to cover our weaknesses to being tied up in CQC or alpha strikes. Good? Absolutely. An auto-take? Probably, since Captains are less important and having a Techmarine on hand was already important. But (in my opinion) he's not a gamechanger like early-edition Guilliman.
The iron father is at the very least 70 points too cheap. Both him and Shrike are clearly being pushed for commercial reasons. Thought that GW was now over this bad habit, but i havn't seen a case so obvious since the WK of 7th.
Spoletta wrote: The iron father is at the very least 70 points too cheap. Both him and Shrike are clearly being pushed for commercial reasons.
Thought that GW was now over this bad habit, but i havn't seen a case so obvious since the WK of 7th.
I'll ask the question - have we seen the pages from the IH and/or RG books with the PL and points costs on them?
Spoletta wrote: The iron father is at the very least 70 points too cheap. Both him and Shrike are clearly being pushed for commercial reasons.
Thought that GW was now over this bad habit, but i havn't seen a case so obvious since the WK of 7th.
Lol, no. Undercosted? Sure. I could see him getting a 30 point bump pretty easily, but 70 is way too much. At 180pts, there would be very little reason to take him over just bringing an extra tank instead.
Spoletta wrote: The iron father is at the very least 70 points too cheap. Both him and Shrike are clearly being pushed for commercial reasons.
Thought that GW was now over this bad habit, but i havn't seen a case so obvious since the WK of 7th.
I'll ask the question - have we seen the pages from the IH and/or RG books with the PL and points costs on them?
Yes. The Iron Father is around 110pts(I think we saw the power level for him first?) and Shrike is 130pts.
Personally, I feel like Shrike's at the 'right spot' for an assault centric character who's meant to for whatever silly reason be in a Primaris list that has no real assault elements outside of Reivers.
Spoletta wrote: The iron father is at the very least 70 points too cheap. Both him and Shrike are clearly being pushed for commercial reasons.
Thought that GW was now over this bad habit, but i havn't seen a case so obvious since the WK of 7th.
Lol, no. Undercosted? Sure. I could see him getting a 30 point bump pretty easily, but 70 is way too much. At 180pts, there would be very little reason to take him over just bringing an extra tank instead.
The question is if he's clearly better than most current charictors to the point of needing around a 30% increase in points but was considered to be inline with the powerlevel GW was going for post playtesting WTAF is coming that makes him worth some 30% less than comparable charictors? Ok Raven Guard appears to be able to just auto delete every charictor unit from your army turn 2 onwards but surely they can't be that silly that they are recosting every new charictor for dying to ravenguard but leaving the exsisting charictors as they are?
The more I look at it, the more I feel like this supplement has two key aspects of that make it "Powerful":
1, a host of abilities that make it very easy to use effectively against typical armies. Durability is a no-brainer, mobility on heavy weapons makes positioning easier, and gunlines are already more straightforward to run than, say, an alpha strike army. The skill floor for playing an Iron Hands list that's competitive is fairly low compared to other armies. I don't think this makes IH stronger than other armies, but it will make them more common because it's easy to play them well.
The other one is the one I have a lot more problems with, which is a few specific combos and abilities that either appear to be undercosted or just plain broken and will hopefully get an FAQ. Feirros appears to be a good 20-30 points cheaper than he should be, (though I want to play with him a few times before I say that for sure,) Duty Eternal stacking with the Ironstone stacking with three heals per turn can make a dreadnought nigh-invulnerable, Leviathans being able to grab Warlord Traits (and maybe even Relics) leads to some terribly cheesy abilities (like being able to Yoink them out of combat with no penalties), just to name a few. Stuff like this takes our most powerful units from 'Durable but fair' to 'You basically can't kill them', which is unreasonably good.
Waaaghpower wrote: The more I look at it, the more I feel like this supplement has two key aspects of that make it "Powerful":
1, a host of abilities that make it very easy to use effectively against typical armies. Durability is a no-brainer, mobility on heavy weapons makes positioning easier, and gunlines are already more straightforward to run than, say, an alpha strike army. The skill floor for playing an Iron Hands list that's competitive is fairly low compared to other armies. I don't think this makes IH stronger than other armies, but it will make them more common because it's easy to play them well.
The other one is the one I have a lot more problems with, which is a few specific combos and abilities that either appear to be undercosted or just plain broken and will hopefully get an FAQ. Feirros appears to be a good 20-30 points cheaper than he should be, (though I want to play with him a few times before I say that for sure,) Duty Eternal stacking with the Ironstone stacking with three heals per turn can make a dreadnought nigh-invulnerable, Leviathans being able to grab Warlord Traits (and maybe even Relics) leads to some terribly cheesy abilities (like being able to Yoink them out of combat with no penalties), just to name a few. Stuff like this takes our most powerful units from 'Durable but fair' to 'You basically can't kill them', which is unreasonably good.
See my worry is they will become so prevalent as they have such readily accessable playstyle and that when the stacking up comes out GW won't be able to see that it's only irons hands, will recost the vehicals and make non Iron hands players over pay for a number of units.
Waaaghpower wrote: The more I look at it, the more I feel like this supplement has two key aspects of that make it "Powerful":
1, a host of abilities that make it very easy to use effectively against typical armies. Durability is a no-brainer, mobility on heavy weapons makes positioning easier, and gunlines are already more straightforward to run than, say, an alpha strike army. The skill floor for playing an Iron Hands list that's competitive is fairly low compared to other armies. I don't think this makes IH stronger than other armies, but it will make them more common because it's easy to play them well.
The other one is the one I have a lot more problems with, which is a few specific combos and abilities that either appear to be undercosted or just plain broken and will hopefully get an FAQ. Feirros appears to be a good 20-30 points cheaper than he should be, (though I want to play with him a few times before I say that for sure,) Duty Eternal stacking with the Ironstone stacking with three heals per turn can make a dreadnought nigh-invulnerable, Leviathans being able to grab Warlord Traits (and maybe even Relics) leads to some terribly cheesy abilities (like being able to Yoink them out of combat with no penalties), just to name a few. Stuff like this takes our most powerful units from 'Durable but fair' to 'You basically can't kill them', which is unreasonably good.
See my worry is they will become so prevalent as they have such readily accessable playstyle and that when the stacking up comes out GW won't be able to see that it's only irons hands, will recost the vehicals and make non Iron hands players over pay for a number of units.
I definitely agree. I'm hoping that we get a day 0 errata to fix the most egregious problems, because while I love my Iron Hands, I don't want the whole codex to get the nerf hammer in a few months on account of us.
Is that good for GW though? In mobile games for example it is the norm to put out a new hero or gear, that people grind for or gamble with loot boxs, only after 3-6 months to "fix" them, so people spend money grinding or gambling.
A 6 months seson pass, would generate good money for GW. Whales would be milked 2-3 times a year. There would be a big turn over of new players, which wouldn't create a bigger secondary market, at the same time the non players that are not whaling, would still be enticed or forced to buy stuff, if they can legaly play their stuff.
Karol wrote: Is that good for GW though? In mobile games for example it is the norm to put out a new hero or gear, that people grind for or gamble with loot boxs, only after 3-6 months to "fix" them, so people spend money grinding or gambling.
A 6 months seson pass, would generate good money for GW. Whales would be milked 2-3 times a year. There would be a big turn over of new players, which wouldn't create a bigger secondary market, at the same time the non players that are not whaling, would still be enticed or forced to buy stuff, if they can legaly play their stuff.
That depends on the pushback. If enough people are decrying it and calling for fixes right away, in public settings, GW won't be able to benefit from the short-term bump in sales.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Seems nobody learned their lesson from the last time a release was prematurely declared OP.
They never will. This happens every time something new comes along which is good enough that some of the current top lists can't just obviously handle it. i.e. any time a new release is going to freshen up the meta a bit and we do not yet know exactly how that will shake out.
When something comes out which is going to make the meta change there is always a chance that the new meta will be less diverse and more interesting than the current meta - balance that against the clear reality that having a meta which has to change periodically is far better than one which is allowed to get stale and static.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Seems nobody learned their lesson from the last time a release was prematurely declared OP.
They never will. This happens every time something new comes along which is good enough that some of the current top lists can't just obviously handle it. i.e. any time a new release is going to freshen up the meta a bit and we do not yet know exactly how that will shake out.
When something comes out which is going to make the meta change there is always a chance that the new meta will be less diverse and more interesting than the current meta - balance that against the clear reality that having a meta which has to change periodically is far better than one which is allowed to get stale and static.
That's why I'm trying to distinguish from the clear balance issues and the majority of the supplement. Most of the rules seem tough but not unbeatable. Unkillable Leviathans that can dance out of combat and need to be fixed.
Waaaghpower 780029 10571346 wrote:
That depends on the pushback. If enough people are decrying it and calling for fixes right away, in public settings, GW won't be able to benefit from the short-term bump in sales.
I think that if that worked on GW, then I assume that they would have wrote better rule sets after some time. This is their 8th edition, they exists as a company for 30 years or more right? expecting them to act differently is like thinking that this time texaco or AT&T are going to act different if people protest for real this time.
I mean, why would they change? w40k players clearly are accepting the changes, and GW is generating huge black numbers the last two years.
When something comes out which is going to make the meta change there is always a chance that the new meta will be less diverse and more interesting than the current meta - balance that against the clear reality that having a meta which has to change periodically is far better than one which is allowed to get stale and static.
Didn't castellans end up like that? changed meta in to lists with IG and castellans, hard counter to those lists, and that is it.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Seems nobody learned their lesson from the last time a release was prematurely declared OP.
They never will. This happens every time something new comes along which is good enough that some of the current top lists can't just obviously handle it. i.e. any time a new release is going to freshen up the meta a bit and we do not yet know exactly how that will shake out.
When something comes out which is going to make the meta change there is always a chance that the new meta will be less diverse and more interesting than the current meta - balance that against the clear reality that having a meta which has to change periodically is far better than one which is allowed to get stale and static.
That's why I'm trying to distinguish from the clear balance issues and the majority of the supplement. Most of the rules seem tough but not unbeatable. Unkillable Leviathans that can dance out of combat and need to be fixed.
I'd accept sacrificing the Levi on the altar of balance. Downright despise any must-have units from FW.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Seems nobody learned their lesson from the last time a release was prematurely declared OP.
They never will. This happens every time something new comes along which is good enough that some of the current top lists can't just obviously handle it. i.e. any time a new release is going to freshen up the meta a bit and we do not yet know exactly how that will shake out.
When something comes out which is going to make the meta change there is always a chance that the new meta will be less diverse and more interesting than the current meta - balance that against the clear reality that having a meta which has to change periodically is far better than one which is allowed to get stale and static.
That's why I'm trying to distinguish from the clear balance issues and the majority of the supplement. Most of the rules seem tough but not unbeatable. Unkillable Leviathans that can dance out of combat and need to be fixed.
I'd accept sacrificing the Levi on the altar of balance. Downright despise any must-have units from FW.
Fun, are you also willing to sacrifice the abumdance of GW's broken shovel ware?
Because gw shot themselves in the foot here. Even rulewise because fw unit rules also come from the gw Team
Nitro Zeus wrote: Seems nobody learned their lesson from the last time a release was prematurely declared OP.
They never will. This happens every time something new comes along which is good enough that some of the current top lists can't just obviously handle it. i.e. any time a new release is going to freshen up the meta a bit and we do not yet know exactly how that will shake out.
When something comes out which is going to make the meta change there is always a chance that the new meta will be less diverse and more interesting than the current meta - balance that against the clear reality that having a meta which has to change periodically is far better than one which is allowed to get stale and static.
That's why I'm trying to distinguish from the clear balance issues and the majority of the supplement. Most of the rules seem tough but not unbeatable. Unkillable Leviathans that can dance out of combat and need to be fixed.
I'd accept sacrificing the Levi on the altar of balance. Downright despise any must-have units from FW.
It's not the Leviathan that's the problem, it's the buffs. Take away the Leviathan, we'll just start buffing the next largest Dreadnought.
Crazyterran wrote: Is there an IH wlt that lets them fall back and shoot?
Tge make it a charictor and give it the warlord trait to consolidate (6 inches, not 100% certain if this is part of the model or warlord trait rules) in any direction.
Actually more broken they can consolidate in any direction.
Ie charge pumble you into dirt then consolidate back behind another unit and you not only can't swing back but also can't shoot them as they aren't the closes model even though they just charged you.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Seems nobody learned their lesson from the last time a release was prematurely declared OP.
They never will. This happens every time something new comes along which is good enough that some of the current top lists can't just obviously handle it. i.e. any time a new release is going to freshen up the meta a bit and we do not yet know exactly how that will shake out.
When something comes out which is going to make the meta change there is always a chance that the new meta will be less diverse and more interesting than the current meta - balance that against the clear reality that having a meta which has to change periodically is far better than one which is allowed to get stale and static.
That's why I'm trying to distinguish from the clear balance issues and the majority of the supplement. Most of the rules seem tough but not unbeatable. Unkillable Leviathans that can dance out of combat and need to be fixed.
I'd accept sacrificing the Levi on the altar of balance. Downright despise any must-have units from FW.
You do realise that it's not the leviathan the redemptor also sees the same improvement in survivability.
It's also less than half the price of a leviathan before the tax unit to allow the leviathan to be taken.
Non ironhands leviathan aint broken even in the heady days of Bobby G lists they weren't even in most top placing lists it repulsors and predators.
It not about FW being broken it was just GW wrote unplayable poor rules for codex dreadnaughts.
I'd accept sacrificing the Levi on the altar of balance. Downright despise any must-have units from FW.
Funny thing is I think people are going to go crazy for the leviathan with stormcannon arrays until they find out how lacklustre it is in the mirror match. Weapons with a flat D2 hate that ironstone relic. A list gets overdominant if it is also the best counter to itself (like Castellan Knights were) - but he leviathan IH list is a really bad counter to itself (or to IH lists in general).
I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.
Fierros is a blend of techmarine and Gravis Captain with Techmarine WS and Artificer armor.
He also has a lesser variant of servo Harness with only 1 gun. This only saves on Points in reality.
As far as his abilities go:
1) he drops all the Captain abilities while retaining Techmarine abilities(see point 3).
2) Master of the Forge grants an option to repair the flat 3(this could have just been a minor rewording of blessing of the omnissiah tbh), this is kind of normal for a Special character.
3)Then we have the Signum array wargear ability that is just an enhanced version of a devastator sgts, and replaces the Captain Rights of battle(slightly enhanced but only affecting a single unit).
4) He exchanges Iron Halo for a lower value 5++ that extends as an aura (which only matters vs AP-3 or better, so is not that spectacular tbf), and a 5+++ FNP for himself
So onto the points cost: 110 is a little cheap, just because a Gravis Captain with a Power axe and Heavy bolter would cost 110; as I had shown above, most abilities are simple swaps. But there should be a "character tax" in points cost; so 120-maybe 130 would be more in line for total cost.
@Komissar, minpr note: The Master of the Forge ability is almost certainly written awkwardly because they wanted it to interact with stratagems and other abilities properly.
Kommissar Kel wrote: Fierros is a blend of techmarine and Gravis Captain with Techmarine WS and Artificer armor.
He also has a lesser variant of servo Harness with only 1 gun. This only saves on Points in reality.
As far as his abilities go:
1) he drops all the Captain abilities while retaining Techmarine abilities(see point 3).
2) Master of the Forge grants an option to repair the flat 3(this could have just been a minor rewording of blessing of the omnissiah tbh), this is kind of normal for a Special character.
3)Then we have the Signum array wargear ability that is just an enhanced version of a devastator sgts, and replaces the Captain Rights of battle(slightly enhanced but only affecting a single unit).
4) He exchanges Iron Halo for a lower value 5++ that extends as an aura (which only matters vs AP-3 or better, so is not that spectacular tbf), and a 5+++ FNP for himself
So onto the points cost: 110 is a little cheap, just because a Gravis Captain with a Power axe and Heavy bolter would cost 110; as I had shown above, most abilities are simple swaps. But there should be a "character tax" in points cost; so 120-maybe 130 would be more in line for total cost.
Ahahahahahhahah
No just no, anything less than 170/180 is a complete insult to game balance
See my worry is they will become so prevalent as they have such readily accessable playstyle and that when the stacking up comes out GW won't be able to see that it's only irons hands, will recost the vehicals and make non Iron hands players over pay for a number of units.
This is my fear as well. And there is no good solution. The IH vehicles are now so much better than vehicles of other chapters than costing them appropriately is literally impossible.
And regardless of how well they do in top end tournaments (I presume pretty damn well!) they definitely will become common in a casual settings. It is just such an obvious, easy and effective playstyle. And it will be super frustrating to opponents, same way than the hit penalty stacking Alaitoc Eldar were. Trying to damage vehicles protected by FNP, invulnerable save and the Iron Stone and if you actually manage to do that it having no effect to their performance and then being healed back to full health will feel disheartening. This just doesn't result fun gaming experiences.
Ahahahahahhahah
No just no, anything less than 170/180 is a complete insult to game balance
Can you state any kind of logic or reasoning for this?
Adding a 5+++ to otherwise Invulnerability deprived vehicles is giving them huge durability against their worst enemies (ANTITANK weapons); also repairing 6 wounds to a nearby vehicle or 3 to 2 vehicles considering what the IH passive buffs are (6+++ and double the wounds when checking the damage chart) is bonkers so that NOBODY in the game can win a shootout against that parking lot, it's just too much survivability for practically no costs or 1 CP Stratagems at best (don't disregard 5+++ for 1 CP, Halve damage to a Dreadnought for another 1 CP and the -1 damage relic that you can give to any character nearby).
It's just too much and IH thoroughly deserves a heavy nerf for being SO MUCH plain better than any other marines chapter (guess what, they just fix the marines durability problems whilst keeping most of the marine damage output intact).
TL;DR It's Guilliman case all over but IH now so the internal balance is thrown out of window
Ahahahahahhahah
No just no, anything less than 170/180 is a complete insult to game balance
Can you state any kind of logic or reasoning for this?
Adding a 5+++ to otherwise Invulnerability deprived vehicles is giving them huge durability against their worst enemies (ANTITANK weapons); also repairing 6 wounds to a nearby vehicle or 3 to 2 vehicles considering what the IH passive buffs are (6+++ and double the wounds when checking the damage chart) is bonkers so that NOBODY in the game can win a shootout against that parking lot, it's just too much survivability for practically no costs or 1 CP Stratagems at best (don't disregard 5+++ for 1 CP, Halve damage to a Dreadnought for another 1 CP and the -1 damage relic that you can give to any character nearby).
It's just too much and IH thoroughly deserves a heavy nerf for being SO MUCH plain better than any other marines chapter (guess what, they just fix the marines durability problems whilst keeping most of the marine damage output intact).
TL;DR It's Guilliman case all over but IH now so the internal balance is thrown out of window
Let's compare two Techmarines to one Feirros.
Since you're spending command points every turn to use his healing, I'll spend a few command points upfront and get the Ironstone, Adept of the Omnisiah on one, and Target Protocols on the other.
For 20 points less, you get almost equivalent durability, (More wounds, plus they're split up, but no invuln and lower T,) almost-as-good repair ability, (aberage 5 wounds recovered instead of 6,) worse shooting, worse melee (but who cares?), equivalent durability buffs, and an equivalent unit buff. Plus, since it's two guys you can fill more mandatory detachment slots and, if necessary, split up to cover more ground. (If you wanted equivalent shooting you could also grab the relic boltgun, too.)
That's for twenty points *less*. And you're suggesting that the absolute minimum cost for Feirros should be 50-60pts higher, meaning you could buy *four* techmarines for his cost.
There's no equivalent when Feirros can offer a 5++ Aura to EVERYTHING within 6" (which you can conga line if needed).
It's the same case as Guilliman and you can't seriously try to put 2 techmarines in the aforementioned setup as "similar", they are FAR from it
(To be clear: I agree that Feirros is powerful, and maybe even undercosted, but he's not close to 60 points undercosted.)
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KurtAngle2 wrote: There's no equivalent when Feirros can offer a 5++ Aura to EVERYTHING within 6" (which you can conga line if needed).
It's the same case as Guilliman and you can't seriously try to put 2 techmarines in the aforementioned setup as "similar", they are FAR from it
Why aren't they similar? The aura is smaller but much more powerful, the healing is average 5 wounds instead of 6, the buff is one hit, wound, and damage roll instead of 2+ BS.
Waaaghpower wrote: (To be clear: I agree that Feirros is powerful, and maybe even undercosted, but he's not close to 60 points undercosted.)
It is, that Aura is too powerful to have in a Space Marines army which also affects EVERYTHING without limitations in either Keywords, number of units or other applicable circumstances (i.e models within 6"). If you can't understand that.
Crypteks for example only offer a 5++ aura within 3" to INFANTRY models and only in the Shooting phase...literally apples to bananas in terms of power level
Waaaghpower wrote: (To be clear: I agree that Feirros is powerful, and maybe even undercosted, but he's not close to 60 points undercosted.)
It is, that Aura is too powerful to have in a Space Marines army which also affects EVERYTHING without limitations in either Keywords, number of units or other applicable circumstances (i.e models within 6").
If you can't understand that.
Crypteks for example only offer a 5++ aura within 3" to INFANTRY models and only in the Shooting phase...literally apples to bananas in terms of power level
Is it, though? I rarely roll worse than 5+ with my marines to begin with, especially on infantry. This will only be super meaningful on tanks, where it isn't nearly as potent as the Ironstone.
Is it, though? I rarely roll worse than 5+ with my marines to begin with, especially on infantry. This will only be super meaningful on tanks, where it isn't nearly as potent as the Ironstone.
And they will have both. They can stack crazy amount of durability enhancements on their vehicles and then heal them at unprecedented speed.
Waaaaaghpower: yes, the double Blessings + Master modification is probably due to Machine empathy allowing double Blessings. I was just saying that as an extra ability(making him seem more powerful than he really is to some non-thinking posters because he has Moar Abilities!) almost seemed odd when it is basically just a rewording of the ability.
KurtAngle2: Rights of Temering only matters vs AP-3 or better weapons. Yes, it is a powerful defense for IH vehicles; No it is not any more "Game breaking" than a 6" aura of reroll 1s to hit for everything without keyword restriction (Like all Captains have). If you think getting a Save vs the few weapons that would otherwise remove or reduce said save slightly lower is too powerful and under costed, then you must think the same thing of the Captain's reroll.
Is it, though? I rarely roll worse than 5+ with my marines to begin with, especially on infantry. This will only be super meaningful on tanks, where it isn't nearly as potent as the Ironstone.
And they will have both. They can stack crazy amount of durability enhancements on their vehicles and then heal them at unprecedented speed.
Except: the Ironstone is a relic, you need a separate second character nearby to use that relic and the 5++. Yes you will have the needed character HQ in a Battalion, but now you have a Deathstar clump that is not supporting the rest of your army. You are also using your 1 Relic choice on the Ironstone(unless you are also paying CPs for another Relic), and there are other relics in the Codex that you might want to take, and will be other good relics in the supplement (I had already talked about Haywire bolts from the Imgur link above as a decent way to deal heavy damage to enemy vehicles, then you also have Gorgon's chain, which will be great for Librarians or other Lts).
So, in short, you are going to have some choices to make in which Relics you take and how you want to play. If you really want 800+ points in tough tanks as a slow-moving Center-line deathstar, maybe with an additional few Dreads, sure go ahead; but you are going to find the play fairly boring and most of your points wasted as the enemy just ignores half your army and plays to objectives
happy_inquisitor wrote: I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.
If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.
Equally, they've generally not taken the time to resolve many issues with Codex special rules not making it over to Index units, until the release of this Space Marine 'dex.
While the Leviathan has been known to be a strong unit, as far as I'm aware it isn't looking like broken in UM, WS or (potentially) RG lists (let alone BA, DA or SW), if a fix for the Leviathan is required, I hope it is as surgical as possible, so lists where it isn't broken in aren't unfairly penalised for one sub-faction's set of combos.
happy_inquisitor wrote: I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.
If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.
Equally, they've generally not taken the time to resolve many issues with Codex special rules not making it over to Index units, until the release of this Space Marine 'dex.
While the Leviathan has been known to be a strong unit, as far as I'm aware it isn't looking like broken in UM, WS or (potentially) RG lists (let alone BA, DA or SW), if a fix for the Leviathan is required, I hope it is as surgical as possible, so lists where it isn't broken in aren't unfairly penalised for one sub-faction's set of combos.
Teh chaos Levis are better because suprise, when you put the Hades and equiv AC's on a plattform that does not suck it's actually usefull but broken it wasn't even in chaos really.
Also doesn't one get a levi for less then a primarch?
happy_inquisitor wrote: I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.
If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.
Equally, they've generally not taken the time to resolve many issues with Codex special rules not making it over to Index units, until the release of this Space Marine 'dex.
While the Leviathan has been known to be a strong unit, as far as I'm aware it isn't looking like broken in UM, WS or (potentially) RG lists (let alone BA, DA or SW), if a fix for the Leviathan is required, I hope it is as surgical as possible, so lists where it isn't broken in aren't unfairly penalised for one sub-faction's set of combos.
Remember when they tripled or quadrupled the cost of all the FW Astartes fliers because Stormravens were doing pretty good?
Raise your hand if you think a Thunderhawk is worth 1500 points.
happy_inquisitor wrote: I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.
If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.
Equally, they've generally not taken the time to resolve many issues with Codex special rules not making it over to Index units, until the release of this Space Marine 'dex.
While the Leviathan has been known to be a strong unit, as far as I'm aware it isn't looking like broken in UM, WS or (potentially) RG lists (let alone BA, DA or SW), if a fix for the Leviathan is required, I hope it is as surgical as possible, so lists where it isn't broken in aren't unfairly penalised for one sub-faction's set of combos.
Teh chaos Levis are better because suprise, when you put the Hades and equiv AC's on a plattform that does not suck it's actually usefull but broken it wasn't even in chaos really.
Also doesn't one get a levi for less then a primarch?
In a direct comparison, Chaos has higher strength, worse AP, more range, fewer shots, and a leadership debuff ability. The Chaos one comes out a little bit better in my book, but it's a close comparison.
happy_inquisitor wrote: I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.
If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.
The fix to the Caladius grav tank seemed about right to me. Certainly not in line with the famous "nuke from orbit" fix to Malefic Lords.
Elfric wrote: A Big Mek in Mega Armour, PK and KFF is 119 points. Iron Father is WAY better and 9 points cheaper
I don't know about "Way" better. Mega Armor is suboptimal for a Big Mek to begin with, but besides that, consider that the KFF buffs orks, who generally lack good armor. IF buffs Marines, who will only even notice the buff when facing AP-3 or better.
IF is still better, but not by leagues.
Elfric is absolutely correct. The Iron Father is better in every respect and cheaper. The comparison is embarrassing honestly.
This release is insane.
No, he is not better in every respect. A 5+ invuln on Orks offers more advantage than a 5+ invuln on marines.
I'm sorry, but if you want to go down this rabbit hole a 5++ is actually MORE valuable on more expensive models aka Marines.
He's embarrassingly better and I hope GW sort their balance issues out in CA.
You'd have a point if we were discussing Scion models and their price point. A 3+ save model doesn't gain as much value of a 5++ as a 6+ model, especially since straight durability is increased for a 7 point model.
The 5++ will be nice for vehicles but that's about it. It's not broken and still less useful for the army.
Just to get this back on track as your all missing the mark so badly it's kinda funny.
How to make Iron hands deathstar ish work
Battalion
Ironfather
Liberian
Primarid Lieutenant
2 5 man intercessors with stalkers
1 5 man infultrater squad
1 repulsor twin lass otherwise heavy on the dakka
1 repulsor executioner like wise anti tank and dakka
Flyer detachment
Stormtallon
Stormtallon
Stormhawk
Stormhawk
Storm Tallon or Hawk needs playtesting to find out which is best
That's one way to make it work. Still got 8CP the boss father and 2 relics on 2 charictors. All vehicals have fly and you have 12 inches of not today GSG.
happy_inquisitor wrote: I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.
If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.
The fix to the Caladius grav tank seemed about right to me. Certainly not in line with the famous "nuke from orbit" fix to Malefic Lords.
Considering gw even nerfed r&h cultists to 5ppm even though they are and were worse than their csm counterpart, i would like to state that a broken clock is also twice a day correct.
Or basically for once the poor competent one of the bunch of gakflinging apes that make up the gw ruleteam had a lightbulb go off.
Yes i am salty.
In a direct comparison, Chaos has higher strength, worse AP, more range, fewer shots, and a leadership debuff ability. The Chaos one comes out a little bit better in my book, but it's a close comparison.
Ice_can wrote: Just to get this back on track as your all missing the mark so badly it's kinda funny.
How to make Iron hands deathstar ish work
Battalion
Ironfather
Liberian
Primarid Lieutenant
2 5 man intercessors with stalkers
1 5 man infultrater squad
1 repulsor twin lass otherwise heavy on the dakka
1 repulsor executioner like wise anti tank and dakka
Flyer detachment
Stormtallon
Stormtallon
Stormhawk
Stormhawk
Storm Tallon or Hawk needs playtesting to find out which is best
That's one way to make it work. Still got 8CP the boss father and 2 relics on 2 charictors. All vehicals have fly and you have 12 inches of not today GSG.
Ok, and what are the buffs that ALL of those units get?
Everything bar the infultratersand librarian has a heavy weapon so no penalty for moving and shooting, reroll 1's to hit, the flyers have +1 to hit ground targets or flyers respectively so hitting on 2 rerolling 1's
The repulsor will be hitting on 2's rerolling 1 because of forgeboss
Will have a 5++ aswell. The lt or librarin can get the -1 damage relic
He can heal each repulsor for 3 wounds each turn for CP and the librarian can heal if needed.
You can select a second relic or WT of your choice
And all the vehicals have fly so fall back and shoot, but best off all GSC and Orks can't charge your flyers.
It's an aurs relic so the 2 repulsors can sit in it, and if you want to go ham theoretically 3 of the 5 flyers with the charictors in the center. Use the other 2 and the troops for screening turn 1.
1) With all 5-man units(or less), and same cost, 2 Executioners would be better than 1 and a DT repulsor with Twin Las. The Heavy Las Destructor has more range, higher S, 2 shots base, and can shoot twice if moving less than 5". Cost is 1 point cheaper than a Twin-las Dakka'd out Repulsor, and you have the HS slot to spare.
2) All vehicles having Fly is a mixed bag. Anti-air(generally Icarus) weapons will have an easier time hitting, and some strats(Like Flakk Missile) can now target any of the vehicles. but on the upside, you can fall back and still shoot.
Insectum7: from a glance: 5++ and can BS2+ the Executioner. Likely having one second Relic as Ironstone for -1D per hit, and the second as either mind forge or one of the armors to nothing buffing other models. then reroll 1s to wound.
Spells are likely to be the Repairing vehicle spell, and Blessing.
Too weak on objectives, remember that those flyers cannot take objectives.
Not to mention that you risk getting tabled quite easily if the opponent has a big melee bastard like a primarch or a Gallant, and you don't have the firepower/range to stop one of those in a turn.
You'd have a point if we were discussing Scion models and their price point. A 3+ save model doesn't gain as much value of a 5++ as a 6+ model, especially since straight durability is increased for a 7 point model.
The 5++ will be nice for vehicles but that's about it. It's not broken and still less useful for the army.
Can someone remind me what sort of weapons tend to fire at vehicles?
Are they weapons that have AP-3 or better almost exclusively? Yes? Right.
And what does this dude heal better than anything else in the game again? Vehicles is it? Right.
Also what is better, saving a 7pt model from death by making a 5++ save or saving a 12pt model from death?
1) With all 5-man units(or less), and same cost, 2 Executioners would be better than 1 and a DT repulsor with Twin Las. The Heavy Las Destructor has more range, higher S, 2 shots base, and can shoot twice if moving less than 5". Cost is 1 point cheaper than a Twin-las Dakka'd out Repulsor, and you have the HS slot to spare.
2) All vehicles having Fly is a mixed bag. Anti-air(generally Icarus) weapons will have an easier time hitting, and some strats(Like Flakk Missile) can now target any of the vehicles. but on the upside, you can fall back and still shoot.
Insectum7: from a glance: 5++ and can BS2+ the Executioner. Likely having one second Relic as Ironstone for -1D per hit, and the second as either mind forge or one of the armors to nothing buffing other models. then reroll 1s to wound.
Spells are likely to be the Repairing vehicle spell, and Blessing.
1 that is true it's a bit 6 of 1 half a dozen of another, I'd probably start play testing with 1 and 1 and then see who performed better, I suspect your fight with double executioner being thw way to go and go tripple tallons.
Thats the thing with count as double wounds and 6+ fnp I think fly to avoid being shut down by a charger is more important than an odd +1 to hit bonus here and their.
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Spoletta wrote: Too weak on objectives, remember that those flyers cannot take objectives.
Not to mention that you risk getting tabled quite easily if the opponent has a big melee bastard like a primarch or a Gallant, and you don't have the firepower/range to stop one of those in a turn.
Why do I need to take objectives untill your dead, I have the firepower and they still count for linebreaker etc
2 a knight or mortarian aint charging anything important easily and certainly not something without fly bar the inceptors who well they die in 1 turn probably anyway so congratulations your DP is not front and center of the firebase who are about to go ham
It's an all fly army it will fallback and shoot your mortarian to dust should you even make it.
Spoletta wrote: Too weak on objectives, remember that those flyers cannot take objectives.
Not to mention that you risk getting tabled quite easily if the opponent has a big melee bastard like a primarch or a Gallant, and you don't have the firepower/range to stop one of those in a turn.
Being weak on objectives doesn't matter when you play ITC because they apparently don't think boardcontrol is a thing you should have to worry about in a list.
You'd have a point if we were discussing Scion models and their price point. A 3+ save model doesn't gain as much value of a 5++ as a 6+ model, especially since straight durability is increased for a 7 point model.
The 5++ will be nice for vehicles but that's about it. It's not broken and still less useful for the army.
Can someone remind me what sort of weapons tend to fire at vehicles?
Are they weapons that have AP-3 or better almost exclusively? Yes? Right.
And what does this dude heal better than anything else in the game again? Vehicles is it? Right.
Also what is better, saving a 7pt model from death by making a 5++ save or saving a 12pt model from death?
Again, it's not better than equivalent options. The Ironstone generally works better than a 5+ invuln unless you're using an AP-3 weapon with only 1 damage.
Also: Autocannon equivalents, Missile Launcher equivalents, and a plethora of other AP-1 and -2 weapons exist. And cover, too, if you play on boards that have decent terrain, which means guns will need AP-4 to hit that invuln.
And I'd say that saving the 7pt model is better 90% of the time, because 90% of the time, that 12pt model would have had a 5+ or better save to begin with. (And if your opponent is firing anti-tank weapons into tactical marines, they've either already won or are blundering terribly.)
Spoletta wrote: Too weak on objectives, remember that those flyers cannot take objectives.
Not to mention that you risk getting tabled quite easily if the opponent has a big melee bastard like a primarch or a Gallant, and you don't have the firepower/range to stop one of those in a turn.
Being weak on objectives doesn't matter when you play ITC because they apparently don't think boardcontrol is a thing you should have to worry about in a list.
I honestly hope these tournament Formats die out.
(the rules not the events)
They set a bad balance precedent that has nothing to do with the majority of games played.
Spoletta wrote: Too weak on objectives, remember that those flyers cannot take objectives.
Not to mention that you risk getting tabled quite easily if the opponent has a big melee bastard like a primarch or a Gallant, and you don't have the firepower/range to stop one of those in a turn.
Being weak on objectives doesn't matter when you play ITC because they apparently don't think boardcontrol is a thing you should have to worry about in a list.
I honestly hope these tournament Formats die out.
(the rules not the events)
They set a bad balance precedent that has nothing to do with the majority of games played.
Bad balance, I've seen people claiming BRB missions and tactical objective decks are more balanced than ITC and while ITC has it's issues, it atleast puts the control of the objectives in the hands of the player not can you avoid pulling unachievable tactical objectives. Have fun scoring deny a psychic power and kill the psycher vrs Tau or Knights.
Spoletta wrote: Too weak on objectives, remember that those flyers cannot take objectives.
Not to mention that you risk getting tabled quite easily if the opponent has a big melee bastard like a primarch or a Gallant, and you don't have the firepower/range to stop one of those in a turn.
Being weak on objectives doesn't matter when you play ITC because they apparently don't think boardcontrol is a thing you should have to worry about in a list.
I honestly hope these tournament Formats die out.
(the rules not the events)
They set a bad balance precedent that has nothing to do with the majority of games played.
Bad balance, I've seen people claiming BRB missions and tactical objective decks are more balanced than ITC and while ITC has it's issues, it atleast puts the control of the objectives in the hands of the player not can you avoid pulling unachievable tactical objectives. Have fun scoring deny a psychic power and kill the psycher vrs Tau or Knights.
You see there's also something as too much controll over them like ITC and the "meta" it facilitates.
Altough if GW for once would do something well, well you wouldn't need tournament Formats now would you
You'd have a point if we were discussing Scion models and their price point. A 3+ save model doesn't gain as much value of a 5++ as a 6+ model, especially since straight durability is increased for a 7 point model.
The 5++ will be nice for vehicles but that's about it. It's not broken and still less useful for the army.
Can someone remind me what sort of weapons tend to fire at vehicles?
Are they weapons that have AP-3 or better almost exclusively? Yes? Right.
And what does this dude heal better than anything else in the game again? Vehicles is it? Right.
Also what is better, saving a 7pt model from death by making a 5++ save or saving a 12pt model from death?
Again, it's not better than equivalent options. The Ironstone generally works better than a 5+ invuln unless you're using an AP-3 weapon with only 1 damage.
Also: Autocannon equivalents, Missile Launcher equivalents, and a plethora of other AP-1 and -2 weapons exist. And cover, too, if you play on boards that have decent terrain, which means guns will need AP-4 to hit that invuln.
And I'd say that saving the 7pt model is better 90% of the time, because 90% of the time, that 12pt model would have had a 5+ or better save to begin with. (And if your opponent is firing anti-tank weapons into tactical marines, they've either already won or are blundering terribly.)
Again, it clearly is better than equivalent options from other factions. Obviously so.
Doesn't the Ironstone ALSO belong to the IH subfaction?
You seem to be repeatedly ignoring that this invulnerable save will be a massive benefit to vehicles (y'know, the units it's intended for) that neither benefit from cover and have AP-3 and above weapons firing at them.
And if this 5+ field was given to a faction that wouldn't have those other durability buffs, it probably wouldn't be a huge deal. But the amount of things IH can stack to make their vehicles hard to kill is staggering. This will be a problem, I am sure of it.
I dunno, seems like at the height of the Castellan Crisis I was building lists with 10 Razorbacks in it that could knock out those two buffed Repulsors in a round of firing. I mean, a list like that will be annoying, but not unsurmountable.
10 Razorbacks with Twin Las and HK Missile get me 31.4 wounds on the Repulsors even after the -1 damage. Chapter Master + Lt. Buffs, but no Oath (UM relic).
Insectum7 wrote: I dunno, seems like at the height of the Castellan Crisis I was building lists with 10 Razorbacks in it that could knock out those two buffed Repulsors in a round of firing. I mean, a list like that will be annoying, but not unsurmountable.
10 Razorbacks with Twin Las and HK Missile get me 31.4 wounds on the Repulsors even after the -1 damage. Chapter Master + Lt. Buffs, but no Oath (UM relic).
I think your math might be a bit off there, as I dont think your getting 10 razorbacks within the reroll auras
You also appear to be asusming it doesnt need to move and take the -1 to hit,
Hitting a repulsor with a 5++ and -1 damge. Also turn 1 it will be in cover with the strategum if they arn't going first
Ok so you have survived turn 1 with 1 executioner killed I now still have a BS 2+ executioner to shoot back along with 3 hawks 2 tallons and the infanty weapons.
Crimson wrote: And if this 5+ field was given to a faction that wouldn't have those other durability buffs, it probably wouldn't be a huge deal. But the amount of things IH can stack to make their vehicles hard to kill is staggering. This will be a problem, I am sure of it.
No question about it. 1 marine faction has literally twice the durability against the weapons you need to kill their units as other factions. Practically invulnerable to flat 2 damage weapons (which are everywhere). They already have the best tactic for durability. Stacking all the together makes a pretty unbeatable force. Not to mention the other free traits from tactics...hitting on 5's in overwatch….
What is the point of nerfing gman to create an even more OP aura powerball? Does GW really think were gonna buy a whole new marine army just to paint it black?
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Spoletta wrote: Too weak on objectives, remember that those flyers cannot take objectives.
Not to mention that you risk getting tabled quite easily if the opponent has a big melee bastard like a primarch or a Gallant, and you don't have the firepower/range to stop one of those in a turn.
Good lord...Every ironhands army is going to have 30 primaris as troops. Who can move and shoot a stalker with reroll 1's at AP-3 flat 2 damage. That is not easy to dislodge off objectives.
You'd have a point if we were discussing Scion models and their price point. A 3+ save model doesn't gain as much value of a 5++ as a 6+ model, especially since straight durability is increased for a 7 point model.
The 5++ will be nice for vehicles but that's about it. It's not broken and still less useful for the army.
Can someone remind me what sort of weapons tend to fire at vehicles?
Are they weapons that have AP-3 or better almost exclusively? Yes? Right.
And what does this dude heal better than anything else in the game again? Vehicles is it? Right.
Also what is better, saving a 7pt model from death by making a 5++ save or saving a 12pt model from death?
Again, it's not better than equivalent options. The Ironstone generally works better than a 5+ invuln unless you're using an AP-3 weapon with only 1 damage.
Also: Autocannon equivalents, Missile Launcher equivalents, and a plethora of other AP-1 and -2 weapons exist. And cover, too, if you play on boards that have decent terrain, which means guns will need AP-4 to hit that invuln.
And I'd say that saving the 7pt model is better 90% of the time, because 90% of the time, that 12pt model would have had a 5+ or better save to begin with. (And if your opponent is firing anti-tank weapons into tactical marines, they've either already won or are blundering terribly.)
Lets get real. The KFF is OP. It literally doubles the save of most ork units and it's cheap as balls. The issue with the ironhands 5++ aura is it being ironhands exclusive - all marines need that because none of their tanks have no invo saves minus a few dreads and they are expensive tanks. What if tiggis -1 to hit was a 6" aura....you think that would be fair - especially being ultramarines only? There is also literally no reason why it shouldn't be if that 5++ is an aura. Ironstone is the real problem - 1 damage aura is flat out OP and should not exist. Plus it is practically free being a relic at least gman had to pay 400 points to give his aura out (which was actually overcosted anyways).
30 intercessors is a fair bit of points, I suspect a number of these lists will toss in only 15. the bare minimum. if you're putting 30 on the table you're investing just over 500 points into your list on infantry. thats a fair bit of points to invest in troops. and to be blunt, the problem with stalker bolt rfiles is the extra power isn't useful if you're not fighting a list with a lotta 2 wound infantry
Insectum7 wrote: I dunno, seems like at the height of the Castellan Crisis I was building lists with 10 Razorbacks in it that could knock out those two buffed Repulsors in a round of firing. I mean, a list like that will be annoying, but not unsurmountable.
10 Razorbacks with Twin Las and HK Missile get me 31.4 wounds on the Repulsors even after the -1 damage. Chapter Master + Lt. Buffs, but no Oath (UM relic).
I think your math might be a bit off there, as I dont think your getting 10 razorbacks within the reroll auras
You also appear to be asusming it doesnt need to move and take the -1 to hit,
Hitting a repulsor with a 5++ and -1 damge. Also turn 1 it will be in cover with the strategum if they arn't going first
Ok so you have survived turn 1 with 1 executioner killed I now still have a BS 2+ executioner to shoot back along with 3 hawks 2 tallons and the infanty weapons.
It's crazy easy to get 10 Razors into the auras. Two rows of 5 will do it, no problem. Turn 1 cover doesn't help you, as Devastator Doctrine is in effect and all the heavies get an additional -1 AP already. Not to mention 10 Razors is only a bit over half the points of the army. There's room for more guns in the list. Also, it's hard AF to effectively hide flyers. If Repulsors aren't yet visible, just start knocking out the planes.
It's not about perfect accuracy in terms of what will happen, nor is it even about the specific list, it's just a starting place to build a counter around. Like the Castellan, I think the path to victory will be a combination of threats to Castellan and/or playing around it. It's "Have I dealt with super-tough units before?" and the answer is "Yes." The new Codex also give me more options than I had previously, as well.
BrianDavion wrote: 30 intercessors is a fair bit of points, I suspect a number of these lists will toss in only 15. the bare minimum. if you're putting 30 on the table you're investing a LOT into infantry.
They are great though. For 85 points you get a unit that can threaten anything not t8 on the table with 36" range and the ability to move and shoot. You are taking 2 battalions anyways because you pretty much need to run 4 HQ's for this comp. The cost is about the same a tactical with a heavy weapon and is way more durable. I could see maybe some infiltrators if you could squeeze them in. Scouts are straight garbage. You don't really need to worry about deep strike charges when you have 30 intercessors to screen anyways.
Insectum7 wrote: I dunno, seems like at the height of the Castellan Crisis I was building lists with 10 Razorbacks in it that could knock out those two buffed Repulsors in a round of firing. I mean, a list like that will be annoying, but not unsurmountable.
10 Razorbacks with Twin Las and HK Missile get me 31.4 wounds on the Repulsors even after the -1 damage. Chapter Master + Lt. Buffs, but no Oath (UM relic).
I think your math might be a bit off there, as I dont think your getting 10 razorbacks within the reroll auras
You also appear to be asusming it doesnt need to move and take the -1 to hit,
Hitting a repulsor with a 5++ and -1 damge. Also turn 1 it will be in cover with the strategum if they arn't going first
Ok so you have survived turn 1 with 1 executioner killed I now still have a BS 2+ executioner to shoot back along with 3 hawks 2 tallons and the infanty weapons.
It's crazy easy to get 10 Razors into the auras. Two rows of 5 will do it, no problem. Turn 1 cover doesn't help you, as Devastator Doctrine is in effect and all the heavies get an additional -1 AP already. Not to mention 10 Razors is only a bit over half the points of the army. There's room for more guns in the list. Also, it's hard AF to effectively hide flyers. If Repulsors aren't yet visible, just start knocking out the planes.
It's not about perfect accuracy in terms of what will happen, nor is it even about the specific list, it's just a starting place to build a counter around. Like the Castellan, I think the path to victory will be a combination of threats to Castellan and/or playing around it. It's "Have I dealt with super-tough units before?" and the answer is "Yes." The new Codex also give me more options than I had previously, as well.
Ironhands do this even better because all the razors are -1 damage with a 5++ (maybe only 8 will fit). Yes - the executioner is overcosted but when you can make it really hard to kill and repair it 6 a turn it will probably still be more preferable.
Max razors loses to basically every competitive army though because you touch them and they are useless.
sure intercessords with stalker bolt rifles are good, but they're not without their issues. run a stalker focused list and chances are you lack the tools to deal with infantry horde lists.
BrianDavion wrote: sure intercessords with stalker bolt rifles are good, but they're not without their issues. run a stalker focused list and chances are you lack the tools to deal with infantry horde lists.
Good thing they have 3 attacks in CC then. Also 2x executioners and a levi will obliterate hordes. Or maybe just running a bunch of redemptors and TLAC Razors will prove to be better. IDK. Its not like they are bad against all infantry ether. Just the dirt cheap ones where they at least deny a save and reduce the effectiveness of FNP on 1 wound models. Ironhands will basically never leave devastator doctrine so there is no reason to run anything else. Ironhands Landspeeders might also prove to be quite a good choice too.
They are pretty efficient vs fire warriors/admech infantry. There is nothing except chaff and t8 that they aren't at least decent against and they are more than decent on range and durability.
sure they're not a bad choice at all, I just don't think stalker bolt rifle intercessors are going to be quite as "I win" as you might hope. IMHO you're better off running a mix of rofle rifle, and stalker rifle intercessors no matter your army.
Spoletta wrote: Too weak on objectives, remember that those flyers cannot take objectives.
Not to mention that you risk getting tabled quite easily if the opponent has a big melee bastard like a primarch or a Gallant, and you don't have the firepower/range to stop one of those in a turn.
Good lord...Every ironhands army is going to have 30 primaris as troops. Who can move and shoot a stalker with reroll 1's at AP-3 flat 2 damage. That is not easy to dislodge off objectives.
My comment was directed at the list that was posted.
15 troops and 4 flyers. That thing is too easily outplayed on objectives, but as i was reminded he probably meant that list for ITC so... well not my problem.
happy_inquisitor wrote: I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.
If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.
Equally, they've generally not taken the time to resolve many issues with Codex special rules not making it over to Index units, until the release of this Space Marine 'dex.
While the Leviathan has been known to be a strong unit, as far as I'm aware it isn't looking like broken in UM, WS or (potentially) RG lists (let alone BA, DA or SW), if a fix for the Leviathan is required, I hope it is as surgical as possible, so lists where it isn't broken in aren't unfairly penalised for one sub-faction's set of combos.
Remember when they tripled or quadrupled the cost of all the FW Astartes fliers because Stormravens were doing pretty good?
Raise your hand if you think a Thunderhawk is worth 1500 points.
happy_inquisitor wrote: I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.
If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.
Equally, they've generally not taken the time to resolve many issues with Codex special rules not making it over to Index units, until the release of this Space Marine 'dex.
While the Leviathan has been known to be a strong unit, as far as I'm aware it isn't looking like broken in UM, WS or (potentially) RG lists (let alone BA, DA or SW), if a fix for the Leviathan is required, I hope it is as surgical as possible, so lists where it isn't broken in aren't unfairly penalised for one sub-faction's set of combos.
Teh chaos Levis are better because suprise, when you put the Hades and equiv AC's on a plattform that does not suck it's actually usefull but broken it wasn't even in chaos really.
Also doesn't one get a levi for less then a primarch?
In a direct comparison, Chaos has higher strength, worse AP, more range, fewer shots, and a leadership debuff ability. The Chaos one comes out a little bit better in my book, but it's a close comparison.
Yeah and don't forget about what they did to the sm super heavys. 917 for a fellblade? Although this may actually make me stop complaining about the points cost. A fellblade or falchion in an iron hands list could be pretty horrifying with these rules. And I'm pretty pissed they can make dreadnoughts characters. Loyalists already have dreadnought characters. We need them for chaos and the equivalent for xenos.
Not Online!!! 780029 10571910 wrote:
Yes.
Were is my bionic leg.
Sincerly.
A very disgruntled patient waiting impatiently.
that is sad. My grandfather lost his leg, and couldn't walk, by the time they got a prostesis for him, he lost his other leg, and could move out of bad without help, and before his accident he was a huge guy 190cm tall, no way my gran could take care of him. I hope you will get yours in time.
Not Online!!! 780029 10571910 wrote:
Yes.
Were is my bionic leg.
Sincerly.
A very disgruntled patient waiting impatiently.
that is sad. My grandfather lost his leg, and couldn't walk, by the time they got a prostesis for him, he lost his other leg, and could move out of bad without help, and before his accident he was a huge guy 190cm tall, no way my gran could take care of him. I hope you will get yours in time.
happy_inquisitor wrote: I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.
If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.
Equally, they've generally not taken the time to resolve many issues with Codex special rules not making it over to Index units, until the release of this Space Marine 'dex.
While the Leviathan has been known to be a strong unit, as far as I'm aware it isn't looking like broken in UM, WS or (potentially) RG lists (let alone BA, DA or SW), if a fix for the Leviathan is required, I hope it is as surgical as possible, so lists where it isn't broken in aren't unfairly penalised for one sub-faction's set of combos.
Remember when they tripled or quadrupled the cost of all the FW Astartes fliers because Stormravens were doing pretty good?
Raise your hand if you think a Thunderhawk is worth 1500 points.
happy_inquisitor wrote: I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.
If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.
Equally, they've generally not taken the time to resolve many issues with Codex special rules not making it over to Index units, until the release of this Space Marine 'dex.
While the Leviathan has been known to be a strong unit, as far as I'm aware it isn't looking like broken in UM, WS or (potentially) RG lists (let alone BA, DA or SW), if a fix for the Leviathan is required, I hope it is as surgical as possible, so lists where it isn't broken in aren't unfairly penalised for one sub-faction's set of combos.
Teh chaos Levis are better because suprise, when you put the Hades and equiv AC's on a plattform that does not suck it's actually usefull but broken it wasn't even in chaos really.
Also doesn't one get a levi for less then a primarch?
In a direct comparison, Chaos has higher strength, worse AP, more range, fewer shots, and a leadership debuff ability. The Chaos one comes out a little bit better in my book, but it's a close comparison.
Yeah and don't forget about what they did to the sm super heavys. 917 for a fellblade? Although this may actually make me stop complaining about the points cost. A fellblade or falchion in an iron hands list could be pretty horrifying with these rules. And I'm pretty pissed they can make dreadnoughts characters. Loyalists already have dreadnought characters. We need them for chaos and the equivalent for xenos.
SPACE WOLVES have dreadnought characters (ignoring chappy dreads here because GW tends not to consider forge world when creating new unit types)
chaos hellbrute chars make little sense considering they're flying rodent gak insane, and no we don't need xenos being given a varient of everything marines have (that is part of the problem Marines ahd for ages the slow "me too" creep)
Gadzilla666 wrote: And I'm pretty pissed they can make dreadnoughts characters. Loyalists already have dreadnought characters. We need them for chaos and the equivalent for xenos.
SPACE WOLVES have dreadnought characters (ignoring chappy dreads here because GW tends not to consider forge world when creating new unit types)
chaos hellbrute chars make little sense considering they're flying rodent gak insane, and no we don't need xenos being given a varient of everything marines have (that is part of the problem Marines ahd for ages the slow "me too" creep)
If you do include FW there's also Bray'arth Ashmantle for the Salamanders, and Eldar have the Wraithseer. Making Ork Meka Dreads Characters could be interesting.
happy_inquisitor wrote: I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.
If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.
Equally, they've generally not taken the time to resolve many issues with Codex special rules not making it over to Index units, until the release of this Space Marine 'dex.
While the Leviathan has been known to be a strong unit, as far as I'm aware it isn't looking like broken in UM, WS or (potentially) RG lists (let alone BA, DA or SW), if a fix for the Leviathan is required, I hope it is as surgical as possible, so lists where it isn't broken in aren't unfairly penalised for one sub-faction's set of combos.
Remember when they tripled or quadrupled the cost of all the FW Astartes fliers because Stormravens were doing pretty good?
Raise your hand if you think a Thunderhawk is worth 1500 points.
happy_inquisitor wrote: I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.
If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.
Equally, they've generally not taken the time to resolve many issues with Codex special rules not making it over to Index units, until the release of this Space Marine 'dex.
While the Leviathan has been known to be a strong unit, as far as I'm aware it isn't looking like broken in UM, WS or (potentially) RG lists (let alone BA, DA or SW), if a fix for the Leviathan is required, I hope it is as surgical as possible, so lists where it isn't broken in aren't unfairly penalised for one sub-faction's set of combos.
Teh chaos Levis are better because suprise, when you put the Hades and equiv AC's on a plattform that does not suck it's actually usefull but broken it wasn't even in chaos really.
Also doesn't one get a levi for less then a primarch?
In a direct comparison, Chaos has higher strength, worse AP, more range, fewer shots, and a leadership debuff ability. The Chaos one comes out a little bit better in my book, but it's a close comparison.
Yeah and don't forget about what they did to the sm super heavys. 917 for a fellblade? Although this may actually make me stop complaining about the points cost. A fellblade or falchion in an iron hands list could be pretty horrifying with these rules. And I'm pretty pissed they can make dreadnoughts characters. Loyalists already have dreadnought characters. We need them for chaos and the equivalent for xenos.
SPACE WOLVES have dreadnought characters (ignoring chappy dreads here because GW tends not to consider forge world when creating new unit types)
chaos hellbrute chars make little sense considering they're flying rodent gak insane, and no we don't need xenos being given a varient of everything marines have (that is part of the problem Marines ahd for ages the slow "me too" creep)
Wriath Lord characters are already in the lore
If the Chaos Hellbrute makes no sense - how does McMurder the Murder Dreadnought from Murder world.......gods that is such a awful part of the WolfWolfdex
happy_inquisitor wrote: I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.
If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.
Equally, they've generally not taken the time to resolve many issues with Codex special rules not making it over to Index units, until the release of this Space Marine 'dex.
While the Leviathan has been known to be a strong unit, as far as I'm aware it isn't looking like broken in UM, WS or (potentially) RG lists (let alone BA, DA or SW), if a fix for the Leviathan is required, I hope it is as surgical as possible, so lists where it isn't broken in aren't unfairly penalised for one sub-faction's set of combos.
Remember when they tripled or quadrupled the cost of all the FW Astartes fliers because Stormravens were doing pretty good?
Raise your hand if you think a Thunderhawk is worth 1500 points.
happy_inquisitor wrote: I tend to agree that if the best competitive option is FW then that is a problem, FW is expensive and specialised. GW have generally been pretty good at fixing OP stuff from FW, even moreso than OP stuff from the mains studio.
If by "fixing" you mean "nuking the site from orbit". Off-hand, I can't think of any case for FW nerfs in 8E where they didn't just hit the big red button, rather than actually taking the time to figure out the problem and resolve it surgically.
Equally, they've generally not taken the time to resolve many issues with Codex special rules not making it over to Index units, until the release of this Space Marine 'dex.
While the Leviathan has been known to be a strong unit, as far as I'm aware it isn't looking like broken in UM, WS or (potentially) RG lists (let alone BA, DA or SW), if a fix for the Leviathan is required, I hope it is as surgical as possible, so lists where it isn't broken in aren't unfairly penalised for one sub-faction's set of combos.
Teh chaos Levis are better because suprise, when you put the Hades and equiv AC's on a plattform that does not suck it's actually usefull but broken it wasn't even in chaos really.
Also doesn't one get a levi for less then a primarch?
In a direct comparison, Chaos has higher strength, worse AP, more range, fewer shots, and a leadership debuff ability. The Chaos one comes out a little bit better in my book, but it's a close comparison.
Yeah and don't forget about what they did to the sm super heavys. 917 for a fellblade? Although this may actually make me stop complaining about the points cost. A fellblade or falchion in an iron hands list could be pretty horrifying with these rules. And I'm pretty pissed they can make dreadnoughts characters. Loyalists already have dreadnought characters. We need them for chaos and the equivalent for xenos.
SPACE WOLVES have dreadnought characters (ignoring chappy dreads here because GW tends not to consider forge world when creating new unit types)
chaos hellbrute chars make little sense considering they're flying rodent gak insane, and no we don't need xenos being given a varient of everything marines have (that is part of the problem Marines ahd for ages the slow "me too" creep)
Yes hellbrutes are nuts but contemptors leviathans etc aren't. That's why they have better ballistic skills and don't have the crazed rule and can't use the fire frenzy strategem. Those older models are generally given to important or skilled heretics. Example malcharion from the night lords novels.
You'd have a point if we were discussing Scion models and their price point. A 3+ save model doesn't gain as much value of a 5++ as a 6+ model, especially since straight durability is increased for a 7 point model.
The 5++ will be nice for vehicles but that's about it. It's not broken and still less useful for the army.
Can someone remind me what sort of weapons tend to fire at vehicles?
Are they weapons that have AP-3 or better almost exclusively? Yes? Right.
And what does this dude heal better than anything else in the game again? Vehicles is it? Right.
Also what is better, saving a 7pt model from death by making a 5++ save or saving a 12pt model from death?
And for the longest time the meta has seen 4++ knights, right?
This guy plus a couple tanks = knight cost plus. It's the -1 damage plus the repairs that's the real problem.
The way the math works out there are diminishing returns for better AP, so the most cost-effective anti-armour tends to be high Strength/medium damage and come in great volume. Any AP past -2 is pretty incidental.
I wouldn't call it "Incidental" since a weapon with AP -4 is still at a +50% damage against a 3+ save compared to an AP-2, but surely it is less important than the difference between AP -2 and AP0 against the same target which is a +100% damage.
Not Online!!! 780029 10571910 wrote:
Yes.
Were is my bionic leg.
Sincerly.
A very disgruntled patient waiting impatiently.
that is sad. My grandfather lost his leg, and couldn't walk, by the time they got a prostesis for him, he lost his other leg, and could move out of bad without help, and before his accident he was a huge guy 190cm tall, no way my gran could take care of him. I hope you will get yours in time.
mate, it was a joke on this statement and user that is is also a parody:
BrianDavion wrote: 30 intercessors is a fair bit of points, I suspect a number of these lists will toss in only 15. the bare minimum. if you're putting 30 on the table you're investing a LOT into infantry.
They are great though. For 85 points you get a unit that can threaten anything not t8 on the table with 36" range and the ability to move and shoot. You are taking 2 battalions anyways because you pretty much need to run 4 HQ's for this comp. The cost is about the same a tactical with a heavy weapon and is way more durable. I could see maybe some infiltrators if you could squeeze them in. Scouts are straight garbage. You don't really need to worry about deep strike charges when you have 30 intercessors to screen anyways.
Insectum7 wrote: I dunno, seems like at the height of the Castellan Crisis I was building lists with 10 Razorbacks in it that could knock out those two buffed Repulsors in a round of firing. I mean, a list like that will be annoying, but not unsurmountable.
10 Razorbacks with Twin Las and HK Missile get me 31.4 wounds on the Repulsors even after the -1 damage. Chapter Master + Lt. Buffs, but no Oath (UM relic).
I think your math might be a bit off there, as I dont think your getting 10 razorbacks within the reroll auras
You also appear to be asusming it doesnt need to move and take the -1 to hit,
Hitting a repulsor with a 5++ and -1 damge. Also turn 1 it will be in cover with the strategum if they arn't going first
Ok so you have survived turn 1 with 1 executioner killed I now still have a BS 2+ executioner to shoot back along with 3 hawks 2 tallons and the infanty weapons.
It's crazy easy to get 10 Razors into the auras. Two rows of 5 will do it, no problem. Turn 1 cover doesn't help you, as Devastator Doctrine is in effect and all the heavies get an additional -1 AP already. Not to mention 10 Razors is only a bit over half the points of the army. There's room for more guns in the list. Also, it's hard AF to effectively hide flyers. If Repulsors aren't yet visible, just start knocking out the planes.
It's not about perfect accuracy in terms of what will happen, nor is it even about the specific list, it's just a starting place to build a counter around. Like the Castellan, I think the path to victory will be a combination of threats to Castellan and/or playing around it. It's "Have I dealt with super-tough units before?" and the answer is "Yes." The new Codex also give me more options than I had previously, as well.
Ironhands do this even better because all the razors are -1 damage with a 5++ (maybe only 8 will fit). Yes - the executioner is overcosted but when you can make it really hard to kill and repair it 6 a turn it will probably still be more preferable.
Max razors loses to basically every competitive army though because you touch them and they are useless.
Well that's the thing, I play Ultramarines, which makes the 'touched Razorback' much less of an issue. So maybe Iron Hands really don't do it better.
