Okay, I made an order to get all the stuff I always meant to grab, but never got around to. I figured this was my last hurrah with them, so here's hoping for the best!
In case anyone was curious, I saved just over $11.00 USD using the HALLOWEEN2024 code.
I did ask about the discounts on the Fb page and it looks like the 20% off just doesn't stack with the multibuy discounts on packs like the Maidens. :(
I got the "Your HF Minis order is now complete" email today, which honestly I wasn't expecting for at least three more weeks. So maybe my order will get here much faster than my last one?
It seems a LOT of small companies are totally unprepared for the ending GPSR transition period on Dec. 13
I doubt Hasslefree has prepared anything. So EU backers probably will never receive anything.
Hanskrampf wrote: It seems a LOT of small companies are totally unprepared for the ending GPSR transition period on Dec. 13
I doubt Hasslefree has prepared anything. So EU backers probably will never receive anything.
I cannot support your implication that anyone anywhere will get anything.
KidCthulhu wrote: Okay, I made an order to get all the stuff I always meant to grab, but never got around to. I figured this was my last hurrah with them, so here's hoping for the best!
In case anyone was curious, I saved just over $11.00 USD using the HALLOWEEN2024 code.
My models arrived! I'm honestly (but pleasantly) surprised. Reminds me of when I first started buying direct from them.
KidCthulhu wrote: Okay, I made an order to get all the stuff I always meant to grab, but never got around to. I figured this was my last hurrah with them, so here's hoping for the best!
In case anyone was curious, I saved just over $11.00 USD using the HALLOWEEN2024 code.
My models arrived! I'm honestly (but pleasantly) surprised. Reminds me of when I first buying direct from them.
Good
As someone else mentioned, discounts didn't always total 20% because it didn't apply to the handful of new release but it also doesn't stack, i.e. you can't get 20% off on something that's already 20% off.
I think that's pretty standard, but I do know that it 'did' stack on the site for a while some time in the past, so maybe people used it then and thought it was always like that. It was just a website glitch that we honoured.
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Hanskrampf wrote: It seems a LOT of small companies are totally unprepared for the ending GPSR transition period on Dec. 13 I doubt Hasslefree has prepared anything. So EU backers probably will never receive anything.
You would be correct in so much as we have not implemented a solution. Like everyone else we are working on it.
A bunch of UK companies are working together to understand the issues and resolve them, like them we'll do the same thing and temporarily halt sales to EU/NI until we have all worked it out.
As far as we have found though, it doesn't affect anything in the past, so our KS wouldn't be affected any more than if you wanted to post a French friend a gift in January.
We can't 'sell' into the EU after Dec 13th. It's not a postage regulation, it's a business regulation.
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warboss wrote: Just curious... for those with outstanding orders and unfulfilled pledges, would you be theoretically more or less happy if they ran a promotion where they charged a premium (i.e. higher price) for orders instead of a discounted sale but with a guarantee that they'd be shipped out that week... and the added price premium would be put towards fulfilling your long awaited orders/pledges.
Obviously, there is no real world guarantee that they'd use the extra money for that instead of simply rent/groceries/etc regardless of what would be hypothetically promised but I was curious if people paying extra to cut the line but that extra price used to potentially expedite your own orders would make up for it. Again, hypothetically speaking...
This wouldn't have helped out our particular situation in any way, it almost certainly would have made it worse.
Ian Sturrock wrote: Well I put together an £80 or so order, added the 20% off coupon... and got £1 or so off, for the two paints. Small print is that the coupon won't work on "new" items, which I'm guessing they're defining as, anything they don't fancy giving a discount on, given that there's no discount on the Maidens (previously announced in the 2023 Halloween sale) or the GID Alpha merc team (old enough that I don't have the email announcing them).
Oh well. I guess I'll wait till next year and see if those are no longer "new".
New probably means that they have not shipped them out ....ever. Or they never got stock in on them, so they are still new.
You are a much better man than I. I won't send money their way until I start seeing people post they have gotten back orders.
*grin* New meant literally new. We don't normally release items with the Halloween event, but due to the great server apocalypse we combined the two.
I'm glad to hear that orders are going out and most importantly being received by customers from the recent sale. If this continues along with the release of some long awaited models, I might finally have to place an order after waiting for years.
warboss wrote: I'm glad to hear that orders are going out and most importantly being received by customers from the recent sale. If this continues along with the release of some long awaited models, I might finally have to place an order after waiting for years.
Black Friday this weekend. We won't be having another sale because we never do, as it's too close to our Halloween event, but we will be doing something.
How about, in response to your previous post, I give 'you' a guarantee. Make an order and if we don't post it by end of day Tuesday (2 working days is our normal postage) I'll refund you and you can keep the order.
warboss wrote: I'm glad to hear that orders are going out and most importantly being received by customers from the recent sale. If this continues along with the release of some long awaited models, I might finally have to place an order after waiting for years.
Black Friday this weekend. We won't be having another sale because we never do, as it's too close to our Halloween event, but we will be doing something.
How about, in response to your previous post, I give 'you' a guarantee. Make an order and if we don't post it by end of day Tuesday (2 working days is our normal postage) I'll refund you and you can keep the order.
No cheating and finding a pre-order though
If I still haven’t received my order from May and have emailed multiple times, is there any recourse there or should I keep sending emails in the hopes that yall see it?
Vazzy wrote:If I still haven’t received my order from May and have emailed multiple times, is there any recourse there or should I keep sending emails in the hopes that yall see it?
If you go back to page three of this thread, you'll see how I had to do it. I suspect my success was based more on my bringing up my issues during the hype phase of an upcoming Kickstarter project (has that pledge manager ever even surfaced on that one yet?) than my patience and any actual customer support attention by Hasslefree, though. Maybe Artemis Black posting here personally again will get your issue noticed, though, so good luck!
Here's my resolution post, to provide a link back:
Psychopomp wrote:After three years, four ignored emails, and several posts on multiple forums warning people of the dangers of doing business with them, Hasslefree has finally made good and provided me a refund.
So, there you go. They do eventually make good on things, I guess? I'll leave it up to the buyer to decide if they want to risk that amount of time and effort to get their order, if they're one of those dropped balls.
I for one consider my business with Hasslefree done and gone.
Vazzy wrote:If I still haven’t received my order from May and have emailed multiple times, is there any recourse there or should I keep sending emails in the hopes that yall see it?
If you go back to page three of this thread, you'll see how I had to do it. I suspect my success was based more on my bringing up my issues during the hype phase of an upcoming Kickstarter project (has that pledge manager ever even surfaced on that one yet?) than my patience and any actual customer support attention by Hasslefree, though. Maybe Artemis Black posting here personally again will get your issue noticed, though, so good luck!
Here's my resolution post, to provide a link back:
Psychopomp wrote:After three years, four ignored emails, and several posts on multiple forums warning people of the dangers of doing business with them, Hasslefree has finally made good and provided me a refund.
So, there you go. They do eventually make good on things, I guess? I'll leave it up to the buyer to decide if they want to risk that amount of time and effort to get their order, if they're one of those dropped balls.
I for one consider my business with Hasslefree done and gone.
I appreciate it, I am hoping I’ll get the models eventually if I keep bugging them, especially with me posting here, but I may just do a chargeback if I don’t hear anything by New Years. I definitely will not be buying anymore from them. It’s especially annoying because I made a second order and they showed up.
Apparently they shipped my halloween order to the wrong address. After many months of ignored emails I reached out via Facebook and finally got a response. Then it sat again. Then i opened a PayPal claim and they finally got back to me again. At this point I just asked for a refund.
Coolyo294 wrote: Apparently they shipped my halloween order to the wrong address. After many months of ignored emails I reached out via Facebook and finally got a response. Then it sat again. Then i opened a PayPal claim and they finally got back to me again. At this point I just asked for a refund.
Sorry to hear about that. Hopefully it's just the exception rather than the rule. In any case, from HF's most recent post on facebook...
Hasslefree Minis
Little tip.
If you want me to try and unravel an issue that you have had getting in touch with Dameon whilst hes been ill or an order missing from the website that crashed last year then manners literally cost nothing.
I am literally doing the effing best I can in a situation not of my making and if you can't be bothered to be at least polite then seriously go take a hike.
I am blocking people that are rude, putting rude emails and threats to the bottom of the pile and if you want a polite response then at least have the manners to be nice to someone who is trying to help.
While I agree that being rude will never help the situation and usually punishes someone who isn't directly responsible, I'm not sure a policy of further delaying long overdue orders until the morale improves is a winning tactic either.
If someone buys your product and you meet them with delays, no product and ignoring emails for how many months?
Then you are the one that opened the rudeness doors.
People should keep it civil, its minis after all but only takes a bad day at the office and you see your 10th polite email to hasslefree getting ignored and you lose it.
NAVARRO wrote: Feels like someone's inverting the problem.
If someone buys your product and you meet them with delays, no product and ignoring emails for how many months?
Then you are the one that opened the rudeness doors.
People should keep it civil, its minis after all but only takes a bad day at the office and you see your 10th polite email to hasslefree getting ignored and you lose it.
I don't remember which mad lad it was exactly but someone put it best I think in this thread long ago (or was it the Mierce thread? Not sure) by replacing the positions of the company and the customers. Do you think companies would just keep just sending out minis when you clicked to order them if you could maybe pay months or years later at your leisure but delay indefinitely as long as you periodically provided them with excuses (busy, illness, dog ate my check, weather, etc) as to why you haven't so far? And that they'd be polite in trying to collect that money if they had no recourse other than just whining online and sending DMs/emails? I don't think they'd be fine if the shoes were on the other people's feet.
When you get ghosted yet again for months on end with nary a word, but the person in charge of this whole mess has had time to stream at least 13 times this month? I can see why some people would get cross with the company.
NAVARRO wrote: Feels like someone's inverting the problem.
If someone buys your product and you meet them with delays, no product and ignoring emails for how many months?
Then you are the one that opened the rudeness doors.
People should keep it civil, its minis after all but only takes a bad day at the office and you see your 10th polite email to hasslefree getting ignored and you lose it.
I don't remember which mad lad it was exactly but someone put it best I think in this thread long ago (or was it the Mierce thread? Not sure) by replacing the positions of the company and the customers. Do you think companies would just keep just sending out minis when you clicked to order them if you could maybe pay months or years later at your leisure but delay indefinitely as long as you periodically provided them with excuses (busy, illness, dog ate my check, weather, etc) as to why you haven't so far? And that they'd be polite in trying to collect that money if they had no recourse other than just whining online and sending DMs/emails? I don't think they'd be fine if the shoes were on the other people's feet.
Exactly, and you can see on the last comms precisely that double stand.
"I am blocking people that are rude, putting rude emails and threats to the bottom of the pile and if you want a polite response then at least have the manners to be nice to someone who is trying to help."
They are penalizing and blocking people who sent rude emails because thats not acceptable. But then they dont take any accountability of being rude for years and playing with peoples good will.
Yeah, I get they're frustrated as well by their own actions but that online flex is sending the exact wrong message compared with the tone they've had here in the thread and elsewhere that was somewhat rehabilitating their image. :(
I think it's Sally doing the behind the scenes stuff and FB updates now, not Artemis. If so, I can understand where her tone is coming from as she is dealing with the mess of someone else.
The problem is likely that some of those emails get REALLY nasty and toxic - you take a good few hits off them plus the fact that the firm isn't in a good spot and that the ceo is ill; the refund requests drain and already empty pot and more and yeah I can 100% see someone just burning out.
Which isn't to say that Hasslefree couldn't have made some better choices/options/communications in the past to smooth things over at the very least; but yeah I can see someone burning out; esp if they can't just give the customer a solution that works right there and then.
The_Minsk wrote: I just wondered if anyone has received anything from hasslefree recently? Still waiting on the pledge manager
Oh boy, you sound entitled.
Don't you realise by now that Arty, best Blood Bowl player in the world, has some Blood Bowl games to stream?
When you are that good you owe it to your fans to keep streaming, all other business responsibilities are so far down the list of things to do that they barely even register.
....
In all seriousness I do feel sorry for Sally and Kev, anybody who has been paying attention for a while will see this as a cautionary tale to never mix business and friendship.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: If they'd get the various Trump sculptures out - Nurgle, Gangsta, Harkonan etc - they'd sell so many they'd cover all their debts.
Well, they'd have to actually ship them to avoid the chargebacks and penalties from payment processors so there is a flaw in your plan... But I agree as he's more popular than ever; heck, I'd love to have the Dirty Harry and Jedi master ones!
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Celebrating 3 and half years since the KS was funded and 6 months since the last update.
Rookie numbers, it will be 10 years getting my last thing from the Kingdom Death kickstarter (if its not delayed again)
I have faith that my next of kin's next of kin will receive the final and complete Kingdom Death delivery before they die, and that the box will require its own dedicated freight delivery because PootsAI will continue to add content up to and possibly beyond the delivery date, with a full cardboard printer and resin 3d printer as part of the delivery if necessary.
I've never had confidence that Hasslefree could deliver something they had in stock to me if I was standing outside their door. Which is a shame, because I've really wanted some of those minis.
Either he is truly fething delusional in that he thinks gak can be fixed or he is about to make the mother of all comebacks where everything is forgiven, which heh, given how much of a fething mess this has all been, seems highly unlikely.
Unless the news is that he's selling the company/molds to someone else, I'll continue to consider Hasslefree a tragic case of excellent sculpts held hostage by an untrustworthy company.
Merging/selling/coming under new management can all be viable approaches and more than one firm has been bought out by a larger one and proved to be more successful in the long run when having some support and a fresh injection of energy/money/staff
Hi, sorry to make this my first post, was looking for information about what was going on with Hasslefree as i've been after a few bits to finish my grym. I'm really frustrated with the lack of updates from the company and then now with the website being down and this forum has the most recent conversations. I notice black and white games the company behind HF has just been struck off by companies house and was wondering what this means for orders and the kickstarter, they've started another company so will it be okay?
Thanks for mentioning that, I've had someone check on that info and they found the following:
compulsory notice went up on 04/03 with intent for the Crown to seize all assets, objection was noted on 15/04, company was forcibly dissolved on 03 this month by the Crown
So, what that means is the company, a separate legal entity to the owners, is now gone. Any funds it retained are now, under Bona Vacantia, property of the Crown.
It can be reconstituted, but it depends on why it was Struck Off. A common reason can be failure to file accounts. There, once the paperwork is in, it can be reversed. But if you’re struck off due to extensive unpaid debts? Not so much,
But, there’s nothing to prevent it returning as a Sole Trader. But, as any assets should pass to the crown as part of the Ltd Co’s dissolution? That’s a square one.
What does it mean for physical assets like moulds, computers, tooling etc I genuinely don’t know, as the knowledge necessary to do my job doesn’t extend to that.
BrookM wrote: Thanks for mentioning that, I've had someone check on that info and they found the following:
compulsory notice went up on 04/03 with intent for the Crown to seize all assets, objection was noted on 15/04, company was forcibly dissolved on 03 this month by the Crown
Interesting.
Forcibly dissolved by the crown sounds so... British. I hope there were Beefeaters and Yeomen involved.
Is there a link?
Also today I learned that HMRC (His/Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs) is not the same as HSBC (Hong-Kong Shanghai Banking Corporation) or HBMC (Half Brother of Marneus Calgar).
From experience I can tell you that if you fail to file the correct paperwork with HMRC they will assume you are massively profitable, estimate that you owe then a mountain of cash and move to grab everything they can.
It can fixable with a decent accountant but you also risk crippling fines.
An excerpt from my TED talk on why paying accountants can actually save you money.
The fact that they had to file a declaration that their future activities are lawful is not exactly a glowing endorsement either. Especially not when it was the last thing filed before the first strike off order.
Hold on. Gonna do a post assembling my comments, as people are (understandably) getting the wrong end of the stick.
Black & White Games Ltd has been dissolved, via Compulsory Strike Off.
That means the business no longer legally exists. Any cash assets now belong to the crown, Bona Vancatia. I’m not 100% sure what happens to physical assets. Anything rented/leased will go back to the owner. Anything Black & White Games Ltd owned though? I’ll look into that.
There was an appeal against the Compulsory Strike Off, which failed. Now we don’t know many details, but that suggests it’s not a fairly straight forward “we forgot to file our accounts” strike off. Which, whilst Limited Companies can be reconstituted, suggests the underlying reason isn’t one you can come back from (for example, making no claims here, large, unpaid debts)
The Confirmation Statement is I’m afraid nothing remarkable, just pretty standard stuff. Every Limited Company has to file them. It’s not a sign that Black & White Games Ltd was up to anything illegal previously.
I’ve now checked, and Bona Vacantia means anything left in Black & White Games Ltd’s ownership at the time of dissolution is now owned by The Crown. Funds. Moulds. Stock. Machines. Computers. All of it.
It is possible that prior to being dissolved, Black & White Games Ltd could’ve formally sold physical assets to someone else. And I’m not entirely sure if the Directors buying them, to setup shop again in the future, is legal or not. That’s a question for someone better versed than I.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and just in case? The address registered with Companies House needn’t be your residential address, or even your business premises address.
I don’t think, and I’d bloody hope not, that any Dakkanaut would be so daft as to try a face to face. But just in case, that information should discourage any such notions.
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ingtaer wrote: Did some digging and found that a new company had been incorporated on the 7th May with the same Directors.
HF MINIS LTD
Company number 16433318.
Who are of course not liable for Black and White Games' debt. This is sounding more and more like a Redstar one style scam.
Ahhh, Phoenixing. Naughty, but not, I believe, actually illegal. A Debtor of Black & White Games Ltd might have a claim, especially if any (entirely hypothetical because we really don’t know) transfer of assets occurred for a suspiciously low price. For (again, entirely hypothetical) example?
I run Limited Company A. And I’m mired in debt. And I know I likely can’t get out of it without selling all my assets, preventing me from doing business.
So instead, I setup Limited Company B, and sell all of Limited Company A’s assets to it. For £1. Nevermind their actual value is £1,000,000.00, it’s still technically legal on the face of it.
But the person or business Limited Company A was indebted to may be able to cry foul, having been essentially denied the maximised return of the debt, due to the less than market value sale of assets to Limited Company B.
If however I sold the assets for their market value? No debtor is technically out of pocket, even if not all of the debt was settled. The legal stance there is because it was a market value transfer, the Debtor isn’t disadvantaged, despite the Phoenixing.
So, what does this mean for customers awaiting fulfilment of orders?
Honestly? Your bum is most likely out the window on this one. HS Minis Ltd most likely wouldn’t have bought any standing obligations. And the company that owed you your product no longer exists.
If you’re in the UK, you may have some recourse through your bank via chargeback (for Debit Card payments) or Section 75 for credit card payments. There are however strict time limits involved there - which although strict, can have slippery start dates. I can look into that further, but not until Monday as it’s work resources I’d be pulling in to refresh my memory.
Just to add on - once in liquidation any assets can be sold by the liquidators and because of the liquidation the "market value" would be much lower. Anything that has zero value (e.g. anything that the storage costs exceed any potential sale) would likely be either auctioned if there is a lot of stuff, or binned.
So you can see how directors setting up a new company often end up buying back their assets at a discount without keeping the liabilities.
If that doesn't annoy you enough, don't forget that trading and brand names are assets too - so although a new company has a different legal name if often trades under the same brand including logo, name etc.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’ve a feeling that if assets are being sold to cover a debt? The indebted person is actually banned from bidding.
Not sure how that works when it’s Limited Companies though, as they’re legal entities in their own right.
No that’s incorrect. The main point of a formal insolvency (both personal and for businesses) is to reclaim as much money as possible for creditors, and often the only person(s) interested in the assets will be the original owner.
You’re correct that outside of a formal insolvency you can’t sell assets at a discount effectively to yourself, but in formal insolvency it’s technically not you (in this example the “you” = the directors) doing it. The liquidators have to justify the sale - but without immediate other interested parties or very valuable assets, that isn’t hard to do.
You are wrong haha but don’t worry about it. You wouldn’t be able to buy back your own mortgaged property simply because you wouldn’t be able to secure a new mortgage from any reputable lender.
I’d be happy to go into more detail about the different types of formal insolvency and associated rules but would be worried it’d be deleted as off topic haha.
I’m not in the financial industry, but I have a small personal experience of this sort of “phoenixing” thing; when my first employer was bought out all of the employees had to formally transfer to a new holding company before joining the new organisation, as the buyer wanted the people and assets, but not any of the accrued liabilities from the original company (which was then wound up I believe).
So for those not from the UK, this sort of thing sounds incredibly dodgy, but is fairly normal business practice.
That is not intended to make any kind of comment on the state of Hasslefree, just to add my voice to those above and urge a measure of restraint, as this sort of thing can seem more malicious than it is.
Depends - sometimes going into liquidation is just how assets end up being held by a firm from well outside of the industry or being left in limbo or just disposed of because they didn't sell etc.... If the moulds are limped in with a company site a firm might bid on the lot just to get the building cheap and then dump the other assets in a skip.
And that's before you get to the issue of collections being split up between multiple bidders or only one part getting bid on and another ignored.
Well, today I learned the english term for phoenixing, which is the standard method of doing business in my country, with one innovation: at the end of it all you pay a literal hobo 50 bucks to buy your debt-ridden company for 1€, they have no assets to seize, job's a good 'un, debtors are screwed, you open the same company under a new name.
Did Prodos do something similar with Archon when they moved from the UK back to Poland and the previous owners's dad took control of the new company on paper? Or was that just an asset transfer and not a full on liquidation? I'm genuinely asking as I don't remember the details. I'd be surprised if the same people who built up the company and then dug it into the ground didn't end up with control yet again.
Jadenim wrote: I’m not in the financial industry, but I have a small personal experience of this sort of “phoenixing” thing; when my first employer was bought out all of the employees had to formally transfer to a new holding company before joining the new organisation, as the buyer wanted the people and assets, but not any of the accrued liabilities from the original company (which was then wound up I believe).
So for those not from the UK, this sort of thing sounds incredibly dodgy, but is fairly normal business practice.
That is not intended to make any kind of comment on the state of Hasslefree, just to add my voice to those above and urge a measure of restraint, as this sort of thing can seem more malicious than it is.
One point to clarify: my original company was solvent and profitable (very profitable; it’s why we got bought), so this isn’t restricted to companies in trouble, it’s a general tool that is used to limit the liabilities of the buyer.
Jadenim wrote: I’m not in the financial industry, but I have a small personal experience of this sort of “phoenixing” thing; when my first employer was bought out all of the employees had to formally transfer to a new holding company before joining the new organisation, as the buyer wanted the people and assets, but not any of the accrued liabilities from the original company (which was then wound up I believe).
So for those not from the UK, this sort of thing sounds incredibly dodgy, but is fairly normal business practice.
That is not intended to make any kind of comment on the state of Hasslefree, just to add my voice to those above and urge a measure of restraint, as this sort of thing can seem more malicious than it is.
One point to clarify: my original company was solvent and profitable (very profitable; it’s why we got bought), so this isn’t restricted to companies in trouble, it’s a general tool that is used to limit the liabilities of the buyer.
Not sure that quite adds up (having been through various similar processes myself). If the prior owners sold a solvent company without transferring its liabilities to the new owners, they'd still be liable for everything, and receipts from the sale of the business would be expected to cover that. I think a few separate circumstances and the means of dealing with them might be getting conflated here. This topic may be relevant, since there may be forum members who have outstanding orders or are owed money – and there's obviously a couple of posters with real expertise in the matter – but those of us with more limited experience should probably be careful about clouding that with anecdote.
Been out of the loop a bit so never realised Hasslefree having had trouble delivering on a Kickstarter.
Have spent some time with Mr White can say he doesn't seem at all like the kind of person who would willingly bring a bad name to his business. Mrs White seems like a very passionate woman with her beliefs so again, don't believe for a second they set out to have this happen.
And to kinda throw a little sympathy towards them, ran a few kickstarters myself. One of them ended up costing me somewhat more than expected (forgot to carry the one from memory, something like that) which delayed delivery of all the models for a few months until I'd managed to scrape the money together through some extra grifting. And perhaps a little help from good old dad at the time...
Anyway, what was I saying? They're good people, and I'm sure they'll make good as and when they're able to.
Kev has no part of the business now and Sally unfortunately has very little due to ill health. The complete cluster of a situation the company is in now rest solely on Dameon, who would rather live stream himself playing games and begging for money than he would do the job he is paid for and fulfil his obligations.
ingtaer wrote: Kev has no part of the business now and Sally unfortunately has very little due to ill health. The complete cluster of a situation the company is in now rest solely on Dameon, who would rather live stream himself playing games and begging for money than he would do the job he is paid for and fulfil his obligations.
warboss wrote: Did Prodos do something similar with Archon when they moved from the UK back to Poland and the previous owners's dad took control of the new company on paper? Or was that just an asset transfer and not a full on liquidation? I'm genuinely asking as I don't remember the details. I'd be surprised if the same people who built up the company and then dug it into the ground didn't end up with control yet again.
IIRC, Archon was a spinoff of Prodos for auto parts from a molding technology that allowed undercuts. Prodos got into deep doodoo with the Aliens vs. Predator KS, plagiarism of Rum and Bones for their LOAD game, threatening legal action against BoardGameGeek, crappy treatment of clients, etc. etc.
I did my part sparking this whole Archon / Prodos link with some research that linked Archon to a failed Demigods KS, though that link wasn't correct but forced Prodos to reveal that it was Archon, even though Archon claimed they couldn't reveal themselves because they signed an NDA.. Or... something. Digging around by other Dakkans (?) showed that both Prodos and Archon were owned by Jared's relatives, and both had the same staff, with everything but the liabilities magically owned by the new company.
I didn't get the impression it was a full-on liquidation or bankruptcy. More like avoiding liabilities from the Aliens vs. Predator fiasco, in which Paramount, the IP holder, took forever to approve anything (didn't help that the suits kept changing) causing delays resulting in loss of $$$. Archon finally did give out store credit to AvP backers who didn't get stuff.
Fast forwarding to Dungeons and Lasers. I don't know how or when they wised up and learned to act like a professional business, but I think they dropped all the resin and that new molding technology, and converted to in-house plastic miniatures. Although they ripped off another company's idea of clothed animal companions with D&L I, I'd say they mostly did the straight andnarrow with generic fantasy and sf with D&L II. They've recently done IP's (eg. He-Man, Pathfinder) and partnerships (eg. Army Painter, Mantic) and even returned to IP-gaming (Heroes of Might and Magic III?).
Though I'd agree that this was pretty common business practices.
@ced1106: I appreciate the recap. I followed the AVP drama as the first and only film is a guilty pleasure of mine but not the rest. I'm definitely glad for the community that they've cleaned up their act in the years since and have, like CMON until recently after their New Wave implosion, done good by the community. While I hope that something similar will happen here for the backers of the KS, I really doubt it frankly.
ingtaer wrote: Kev has no part of the business now and Sally unfortunately has very little due to ill health. The complete cluster of a situation the company is in now rest solely on Dameon, who would rather live stream himself playing games and begging for money than he would do the job he is paid for and fulfil his obligations.
As a backer my feeling wasn't that they "had trouble" fulfilling. We were promised a pledge manager 3+ years ago and it never happened.
We were told models were being cast (how when you don't have a pledge manager and done know what was ordered?) but it's now more than 6 months since the last aenimic update.
The Robotech/Palladium KS for example eventually delivered Wave 1, but this had produced nothing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's like no one tried.
Are they really just terrible at handling the paperwork? I know that's not really the forte of garden shed miniature companies, but still. You'd think after the first threat of strike off would encourage them to get an accountant.
It's a shame because Kev & Sally seemed like great folk. Maybe they should have just sold it off to someone else years ago instead of trying to make it work.
manic _miner wrote: I think that Fourground did the Pheonixing thing too by selling assets to a family member. I think they also had a KS that did not complete.
Ya, a few years before they finally folded 4 ground was sold to a company owned partially by some of the 4ground people that made souvenirs for UK historical sites. Brexit hurt the parent company a few years later causing 4ground to fold. Their KS was in limbo for years likely due to them using those funds to just keep the base business running hoping to recover with sales.
I know someone bought some of the building files and sells them under a different name.
manic _miner wrote: I think that Fourground did the Pheonixing thing too by selling assets to a family member.
I think they also had a KS that did not complete.
Ya, a few years before they finally folded 4 ground was sold to a company owned partially by some of the 4ground people that made souvenirs for UK historical sites. Brexit hurt the parent company a few years later causing 4ground to fold. Their KS was in limbo for years likely due to them using those funds to just keep the base business running hoping to recover with sales.
I know someone bought some of the building files and sells them under a different name.
It wasn't Brexit that did in Tymeagain to my knowledge, but COVID. If the majority of sales are from children visiting castles and suddenly no one does for months, it hits the bottom line.
My undertanding is that Brexit massivly jumped the cost of MDF and the other materials both companies were using as well as stopped travel from the EU lowering sales for TY. It wasn't the cause of TY closing, as COVID did eventually do that, but killed 4grounds sales as they increased their already expensive prices by quite a bit and putting them into debt by quite a bit.
Oh thank goodness, I was worried for a minute there.
I expect we'll get the pledge manager this week as well.
Sigh... I really like HF models, I enjoyed my limited interactions with Kev White, and I hate to bad mouth anyone suffering from chronic illnesses, it's not even that I'll miss the money I put into the KS, it's just the lying and deception from people I expected more from.
I'd make a joke but fething hell, the man can stream almost daily grinding away at Call of Duty, but is too poor of health to do updates on anything store or KS related?
The smile emote is a nice touch though, it feels so insultingly out of touch in terms of ignoring just how fethed everything is beyond the point of recovery.
I guess I was very lucky that the Hasslefree sci-fi kickstarter was so focused on humans and devoid of interesting alien miniatures, because I opted not to back it for that reason.
It is a tremendous shame, though, because the company really did put out some great sculpts, and back in the day they had great service and were very friendly. Kev's style and sculpting preferences were never perfectly aligned with mine, so my Hasslefree collection is small, but when he did sculpt something up my alley, it was superlative, and there's no questioning the man's talent.
Qualitatively, Hasslefree's molds are definitely worth another company picking up and putting back into production (financially, I never claim to have any idea of what will sell well or where the market is going.) If that happens, and especially if that company decides to produce Kev's kickstarter sci-fi figures, I hope they will honor the backer's investment by shipping those minis to you for free. While not really fair to whoever buys the molds, they should consider honoring the backers investment as part of the expense of buying the molds, because it will restore good will and encourage those backers to continue purchasing from them. (Whereas not honoring the pledges but producing those figures would likely alienate a small but serious group of collectors from said company's entire line past and future, and in a niche field with a small pool of buyers, that's a bad gamble to make.)
I think most of us here have been burned occasionally by unfulfilled kickstarters (I have, but fortunately not too often,) so I empathize with those of you who did invest in the campaign. I won't speculate on your chances, but I hope the molds get bought and your pledges get fulfilled by another company.
The biggest risk is that hte material ends up held by a legal or other firm who gets left the remains of the firm or ends up owning it as part of legal proceedings; or the material gets dumped or destroyed.
Even if its sold it could arrive in a terrible incomplete mess. Warcradle had that when buying up the old Spartan Games stock; pallets of moulds just tossed on with no order leaving them to have to sort out what they actually had.
Or the collection gets broken up; bits here and there for different buyers etc..
I thought it was "I got this" as in "I know what they will say" and then you reprinted the message from before as a joke.
As opposed to "I got this message".
anyway point being I still get an error on multiple devices.
Sorry.
I wonder if the message screen I have and your screen error is to do with Browsers etc
Either way, to make it clear Im not affiliated in any way shape or form.
I always enjoyed to go to their stands at Salute back in the day when, Hasslefree and Heresy miniatures had plenty of cool minis and good service etc, they really were good folks... seems like that was an eternity ago now.
I really hope things get resolved and everyone gets what they payed for, because at this point, people just simply want closure.
So... a few things that seem to be missed, or perhaps not considered.
First the comparisons to Archon are... no. Just no on so many levels. Archon pulled a Defiance Games, with less racism, and some how became a success... it utterly baffles me.
Second, if they just wanted to disappear... why keep the site live? Thats just further cost. Why bother?
Third, and most importantly here... Arty isn't hard to find. He has a discord he's pretty active on, regularly streams on twitch... you could all just... ask him?
This is just a server that has exceeded its traffic limit. Presumably, given the timing, from a bunch of people checking to see if they were, in fact, back this month.
Gomezaddams wrote: So... a few things that seem to be missed, or perhaps not considered.
First the comparisons to Archon are... no. Just no on so many levels. Archon pulled a Defiance Games, with less racism, and some how became a success... it utterly baffles me.
Second, if they just wanted to disappear... why keep the site live? Thats just further cost. Why bother?
Third, and most importantly here... Arty isn't hard to find. He has a discord he's pretty active on, regularly streams on twitch... you could all just... ask him?
I have a feeling his only 'reply' at this point would be a simple permanent ban.
Gomezaddams wrote: Third, and most importantly here... Arty isn't hard to find. He has a discord he's pretty active on, regularly streams on twitch... you could all just... ask him?
Great point, because I'm sure that nobody has attempted to contact Dameon until now.
I doubt a response would be forthcoming if people reached out through discord or twitch, you have seen him ignoring most of the comments last time he posted here right? Or when you look at the comments of the last KS update, he only replied to a select few who were telling him to take his time and whatnot, ignoring everybody else asking for more info.
His whole "mail me with any outstanding issues" that he kept on repeating every time he popped up was also a lovely clusterfeth of a mess, I only got a prompt response the moment I got fed up with being ignored and went through the refund process.
First the comparisons to Archon are... no. Just no on so many levels. Archon pulled a Defiance Games, with less racism, and some how became a success... it utterly baffles me.
Archon did a grift and funded the second largest wargaming grade plastics factory in the world.
Hasslefree is just British garage entrepreneur boomers which by default means they run on pure entitlement and zero accountability, hence they have nothing to show at the end of their stint. I don't know what it is about this demographic that makes them feel like they have God by the balls as soon as people start giving them money. File taxes? Nah we'll just wing it. Deliver product? Nah we'll just wing it.
I have a feeling his only 'reply' at this point would be a simple permanent ban.
Great point, because I'm sure that nobody has attempted to contact Dameon until now.
Maybe... but then thats a different thing. As in, I'm sure somewhere in one of the live streams he will have talked about it, even if in passing, but I don't have... 17 hours to watch Mondays stream to work out if he did. Theres 587 backers from the last kickstarter, and yet I dont see one person saying they approached him using these means and got banned without a response.. thats weird...
Like he has his discord there, an open chat, recorded streams, and a link to HF... that doesn't scream 'doing a runner' to me.
Didn't you work for Hasslefree at some point?
Yeah? Does it seem like I've tried to hide that?
To be clear it was 13 years ago and I picked and packed orders (edit: I also did trade shows). Since then, I've worked for other gaming companies including GW, in multiple roles, and now do something completely outside of all that. As I've said in my other postings I find how the miniatures industry operates, generally, to be as interesting as models themselves. I'm weird, go figure.
Also, to be completely clear, I haven't been posting here to support, denounce, etc. I just find it interesting and peoples posts here to be... just wild. I've been collecting minis for.. over 30 years, and HF aren't acting like a company trying to pull a fast one.
People seem to be taking going silent as a bad thing. I would point out that at the moment, none of you think your getting anything; if radio silence lets them focus on clearing orders, and getting things ready... thats a good thing. As in, I think you'd all rather they were packing orders/getting to a place where they could fulfil orders then just... spending all day dealing with angry and frustrated customers.
Archon did a grift and funded the second largest wargaming grade plastics factory in the world.
So... what they did was okay because it worked out in the end? No...
Also, they aren't second... I think there fourth, but who's counting?
Hasslefree is just British garage entrepreneur boomers which by default means they run on pure entitlement and zero accountability, hence they have nothing to show at the end of their stint.
I don't know what it is about this demographic that makes them feel like they have God by the balls as soon as people start giving them money. File taxes? Nah we'll just wing it. Deliver product? Nah we'll just wing it.
See this - this is why I post here. Its just logically wrong incorrect, short sighted, and throwing out generalised insults because... what exactly?
Lets just pretend your right for a minute - what your saying is a successful miniatures company, that had been doing well for over a decade despite rising tin prices, Kickstarter (which was a bigger hit to the industry then anyone realises), not to mention covid and brexit just decided.. one day.. nah.. lets leg it.
Not after the first kickstarter - the successful one. Not do it properly and disappear completely.. keep the website open, stay contactable... to what exactly?
ccs wrote: The company is dead & gone.
None of you will ever get anything from them - answers. KS stuff. General orders. Etcetcetc
So why keep going on about them?
This. And in the UK, your rights to refund (Section 75 for Credit, Chargeback for Credit and Debit) Are On A Timer. There is some flexibility to the timer, but it is running.
Gomezaddams wrote: Not after the first kickstarter - the successful one. Not do it properly and disappear completely.. keep the website open, stay contactable... to what exactly?
Well, if personal involvement weren't clouding your judgement, you'd have registered my original reply to you:
Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.
You keep strawmanning about them "doing a runner" which I don't think anybody has said. Certainly not I. I don't think they took in a bunch of orders and fled to Hawaii.
What I'm saying is they don't feel beholden to their customers, which in my experience is a common attitude in British garage companies. A side gig is a hobby and like a hobby you can drop it whenever you want, or something. So they took in a bunch of orders and aren't fulfilling them because they don't feel like doing it and they don't see anything wrong with that, morally or legally.
Gomezaddams wrote: People seem to be taking going silent as a bad thing. I would point out that at the moment, none of you think your getting anything; if radio silence lets them focus on clearing orders, and getting things ready... thats a good thing. As in, I think you'd all rather they were packing orders/getting to a place where they could fulfil orders then just... spending all day dealing with angry and frustrated customers.
one minute earlier...
I'm sure somewhere in one of the live streams he will have talked about it, even if in passing, but I don't have... 17 hours to watch Mondays stream to work out if he did.
Looks like they're at least going to try and come back, as a new company (HF MINIS LTD) with the same directors was incorporated on 7th may 2025
could be an attempt to 'Phoenix' and get away from outstanding liabilities,
which doesnt look good at first sight
could be they've got outside investment but the investor wants a clean slate and they'll reappear and fulfil KS backers and private buyers (although not legally obliged to) but avoid liabilities for anything owed on taxes, loans
(we've seen this before with KS company colapses, both where a new player picked up the assets and fulfilled things, and where existing owners new business did the same)
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Looks like they're at least going to try and come back, as a new company (HF MINIS LTD) with the same directors was incorporated on 7th may 2025
could be an attempt to 'Phoenix' and get away from outstanding liabilities,
which doesnt look good at first sight
could be they've got outside investment but the investor wants a clean slate and they'll reappear and fulfil KS backers and private buyers (although not legally obliged to) but avoid liabilities for anything owed on taxes, loans
(we've seen this before with KS company colapses, both where a new player picked up the assets and fulfilled things, and where existing owners new business did the same)
so it's still wait and see
At this point anything can go, I have a gut feeling that they will probably do something akin but different enough from their current production model ( that failed and collapsed when they lost their main sculptor/owner to GW). Maybe digital products, terrain, tokens etc who knows,
In an ideal world I would like to see them honouring the KS and outstanding orders first though.
I didn't like CMON because of the way newwave previously collapsed and still took orders before forming CMON, I dont like Archon when they did what they did with the aliens KS etc, I dont like how Mierce was created with the funds of not honouring previous company failures etc... It's a common trend among some companies.
Regardless of how successful their new company preform I will not forget, but most will.
Heck even on this tread you see some of you all happy that Archon is doing well on the back of screwing people.
1) Not one of the hundreds of backers has attempted to contact Hasslefree
2) If they had, Hasslefree would have sorted things out, because... they just forgot, apparently, and need someone to remind them
3) At the same time, the radio silence is because they are busy packing the orders they forgot about. While also doing 17 hour Call of Duty streams.
This is a level of doublethink rarely seen outside political cults and the fact that you're nearing a double digits percentage of your total post count defending Hasslefree in particular makes me think clone account of one of the staff.
Not one of the hundreds of backers has attempted to contact Hasslefree
Didn't say that. I said I wasn't sure why people were assuming the absolute worst, when everything's publicly available and backers have a means of contacting Arty directly that's also publicly available.
If they had, Hasslefree would have sorted things out, because... they just forgot, apparently, and need someone to remind them
Didn't say that either.
I don't think there in a position where they can regularly ship orders like they did pre-merger. They do seem to have gone through periods of shipping as people had commented on the FB page saying as much. They also had someone posting literally every day.
At the same time, the radio silence is because they are busy packing the orders they forgot about. While also doing 17 hour Call of Duty streams.
I'm saying why hasn't anyone asked Arty directly why he's able to stream 17 hours, but not able to pack an order.
I mean I'll sign up to twitch if you like?
That's... Pretty wild and weird accusation to be honest. I'm not staff, I was staff. I earn twice as much doing what I do now then I did on my highest salary working for any minis company.
I also haven't 'defended' them - my posts are there. I've tried to explain a few things that people don't seem to understand, fundamentally, about companies like Hasslefree. It could equally apply to many others.
I think a lot of things went wrong for HF but slinging insults, calling them entitled boomers... It's so far off the mark, and you have to look beyond the past few years of stuff to see that
I got a private message from a Jon Cybertron here on DakkaDakka last week asking for information about my orders from HF. Did anyone else get that message? They acted like they were going to try and do an Expose about HassleFree.
I notice that Jon Cybertron has no posts and just created their account on July 2nd here on Dakka, so I am not willing to give any info out to someone that anonymous.
Message:
Hi Theophony!
The Dakka thread "Hasslefree - Forcibly dissolved by HMRC" has become the central info point for the current state of Hasslefree Miniatures.
You're posting in it suggests you're a Hasslefree website customer and/or Hasslefree Kickstarter backer.
I'm writing an article about customer trust and miniature wargamers Kickstarters, and am building it around a series of interviews with people like yourself who backed a Kickstarter have been waiting years after the initially promised delivery deadline. Would you be interested in helping?
I'm not sure I do. It sounds like you're suggesting that people are weird for not stalking Dameon across the internet. That the decent thing for them to do would be to go harass him via his Twitch gig.
He was plenty contactable through Hasslefree's business channels, he just couldn't be bothered. There were loads of comments on Facebook and on their site from customers frustrated with the complete lack of response to their messages. Most of them just wanted an update on orders that were months overdue.
Not to mention Dameon hasn't touched the Kickstarter in over half a year. That's not an issue that's going to be solved with backers joining his Discord.
Gomezaddams wrote: I think a lot of things went wrong for HF but slinging insults, calling them entitled boomers... It's so far off the mark, and you have to look beyond the past few years of stuff to see that
Conversely you have to ignore years of bad business behaviour to pretend like Hasslefree are decent. At some point they must've known they were taking orders they were unlikely to fulfill. Nobody's obligated to look past that.
Not that I'm saying "entitled boomer" is correct. But also, what a mild insult to get upset over.
A fellow mod and myself have also received the PM with the same message, will see what comes from it if a reply materialises or not. Could be a genuine call for info, or it could be a sussy sus thing, as of this moment, dunno. All I ask is that if you do reply and think it's fishy, rule #1 please.
He was plenty contactable through Hasslefree's business channels, he just couldn't be bothered. There were loads of comments on Facebook and on their site from customers frustrated with the complete lack of response to their messages. Most of them just wanted an update on orders that were months overdue.
This was my experience. Missing mini from my order. Just a small amount of money, really, but I paid for what I didn't receive and then got ghosted for 3 years - including during those "Send an email with the header in all caps, and I'll make it right!" drives that seem to come around the Halloween sales. There was zero response, acknowledgement, or even indication the emails were ever read. No action was taken until I popped into this very thread years ago to warn people about my experience during the pre-Kickstarter hype phase. Then I got told I'd sent my complaint to the wrong email, but silence when I pointed out we were responding to an initial complaint email that went to the email he listed as the right one (as well as every other Hasslefree email I could dig up.) I posted here about what it too to get the issue resolved and tried to warn people as graciously as I could that it was too much effort and required the notice from waving red flags about the Kickstarter to even get a hint of motion on my issue. I regret not having been less gracious and more direct, now.
There's a cycle with Hasslefree - there's an announcement, a sale, a Kickstarter...something...and people come out to warn about not getting orders/minis and no customer service responses. Then others come out to say that well, I've never had an issue, and they're such nice people! This encourages people to try orders during this event, and one or two come back to post they got their stuff, no issues, and they are nice people! Then a month or two later, there's a few posts from people saying they never got something and no response to emails - what should they do to get in touch with someone at Hasslefree? But the event's long over and the thread doesn't get much engagement for these folks.
No matter how lovely the people at Hasslefree are, and yes, they were nice and polite when they could be arsed to respond at all...but it doesn't matter how nice people behind a business are if you're playing get-my-stuff roulette. The prizes are great! But you're not supposed to be gambling for them, you're supposed to be buying them! And frankly, from what I'm seeing online, the game is getting stacked worse and worse against the player, with the Kickstarter being the worst example to date, by far.
The minis are great, absolutely. The people are great, absolutely. I got no personal beef with them. But as a purely practical matter, the business is untrustworthy and appears to be increasingly getting worse. Caveat emptor. Buyer beware.
I had been posting weekly on their facebook page and sending an email with a very similar facebook message asking about my missing order (admittedly, I knew ordering was a risk but I was willing to play the hasslefree slot machine). Now it's just back to weekly emails. My latest email I just sent to Dameon and Sally stated that I will continue to email them until the end of July, which if I don't hear back by then I will initiate a chargeback. A real shame because the sculpts were aces but the problems started when Dameon took over and only got progressively worse. Fingers crossed a reputable company gets a hold of the molds since it seems like Hasslefree is done for.
About 12 months ago I reached out to Artemis on his discord, he asked if I was interested in blood bowl and I politely asked if he would provide an update on the kickstarter, he was very polite but didn’t answer my question. Since then I think we have had 4 updates in the 12 month period. I’m not sure I have the inclination to chase him up on this platform.
flanneldud wrote: I had been posting weekly on their facebook page and sending an email with a very similar facebook message asking about my missing order (admittedly, I knew ordering was a risk but I was willing to play the hasslefree slot machine). Now it's just back to weekly emails. My latest email I just sent to Dameon and Sally stated that I will continue to email them until the end of July, which if I don't hear back by then I will initiate a chargeback. A real shame because the sculpts were aces but the problems started when Dameon took over and only got progressively worse. Fingers crossed a reputable company gets a hold of the molds since it seems like Hasslefree is done for.
Rather have Reaper. Worst case, they could end up gone lile RAFM.
Psychopomp wrote: The minis are great, absolutely. The people are great, absolutely.
Two kickstarters ago I had a really bad run in with Sally. Basically that KS was way behind, and orders were gone. Had to email Artemis, who told me he'd get back to me and didn't so I reached out to Sally on FB. She got back to me then nothing. Rinse and repeat for six months. This was when a second kickstarter was launched, by Kev, so it was a separate account but Sally was running it. I brought up on that one the delays and was dogpiled by HF loyalists, including Sally appearing to say how thankful she was for their defence.
The Kev KS started running behind as Sally was running it and she injured herself. Since the first KS was being ignored, emails went unreplied, and complaints and questions were deleted on FB, I got gakky in the Kev KS about it. Sally then made a big update about how she was injured and vagued about how I was a bully and all that. I countered that I was wondering where Artemis was in his KS, and why Kev wasn't doing anything for the KS under his name?
Got dogpiled again called entitled (yeah I gave them a few hundred bucks if you can't fulfil explain why not), they're doing their best etc etc. My order eventually arrived, like two years late, but plenty of others received nothing. So since I could post in the Kev KS, where the Whites were active, I figured I should do what I could to help those people and point out that the first KS was being ignored.
Sally came in and talked gak about me, saying that I got my order so why was I causing trouble and various insults. In the end she posted my full name and address in the public comments to prove I had got my order and was a trouble maker. Lots of other backers supported her and she was thanking them for their kind words. Also blocked me on FB after deleting all the negative comments and people wondering where their orders are. KS deleted all her comments for obvious reasons. Still never resolved the people in the first KS.
When the current KS was launched I pledged $1 and put a warning about the previous ones. Got told I was a hater, they were great, "well I got *my* order on time" and all that.
I don't think they're scammers, but they (Kev and Sally) are not good at running a business and have been deleting and blocking anyone who doesn't kiss their asses for years. Their shutting down comes as no surprise to me tbh.
And before thinking going into - theres two sides for every story - I cant justify any business breaching and sharing private sensible information publicly. I don't know but sharing a client name, address and order details is absolutely out of the question and there is no justification to do so.
It looks like the website might be back up and "open", facebook page is still gone. But I was able to log in and look at my order that still says "completed" despite never having shipped or received the tracking number I paid for.
Sally came in and talked gak about me, saying that I got my order so why was I causing trouble and various insults. In the end she posted my full name and address in the public comments to prove I had got my order and was a trouble maker.
Digging around by other Dakkans (?) showed that both Prodos and Archon were owned by Jared's relatives, and both had the same staff, with everything but the liabilities magically owned by the new company.
