I did, before it was FAQ'd to do nothing. Played a friendly game with my buddy, just to see how broken it was. And it was very broken.
But, if you're asking if Loot It can give MANz a 1+ Save, the answer is "no".
Automatically Appended Next Post: For clarification, the reason it was broken is because:
1) AP- modifies the Save roll, not the Save Characteristic.
2) no modifier can bring a roll below a 1.
3) a roll of 1 is only an automatic failure if it is a natural 1.
Which meant that if you Looted something with your Manz and got them a 1+ Save, you could only fail a Save on a roll of 1 on the dice, regardless of what AP your opponent used. AP0 or AP 8, it didn't matter.
flandarz wrote: I did, before it was FAQ'd to do nothing. Played a friendly game with my buddy, just to see how broken it was. And it was very broken.
But, if you're asking if Loot It can give MANz a 1+ Save, the answer is "no".
Automatically Appended Next Post: For clarification, the reason it was broken is because:
1) AP- modifies the Save roll, not the Save Characteristic.
2) no modifier can bring a roll below a 1.
3) a roll of 1 is only an automatic failure if it is a natural 1.
Which meant that if you Looted something with your Manz and got them a 1+ Save, you could only fail a Save on a roll of 1 on the dice, regardless of what AP your opponent used. AP0 or AP 8, it didn't matter.
And gw could have fixed it in other ways. Make loot it give modifier to roll or make exception to roll below 1 counts as 1. Necrons already have one so 1-1 does work when you need to roll less than 1.
It did modify the roll, that was the problem.
It had something to do with the timing of AP vs the bonus to armor save. BaconCatBug would be the guy to ask the details of, but its a thing of the past now anyway.
I pretty much never even think about it unless i can give it to 20ish or more boyz and there isnt a mass of AP-1 or 2 guns anyway, or give it to Nobz since often that means they have A save in the end and are much more resilient to the no AP guns.
Vineheart01 wrote: It did modify the roll, that was the problem.
It had something to do with the timing of AP vs the bonus to armor save. BaconCatBug would be the guy to ask the details of, but its a thing of the past now anyway.
I pretty much never even think about it unless i can give it to 20ish or more boyz and there isnt a mass of AP-1 or 2 guns anyway, or give it to Nobz since often that means they have A save in the end and are much more resilient to the no AP guns.
No it modified save statistic. Replace the 2 on datasheet with 1. If it would have modified roll then you roll 2, reduce 5 from ap, add 1 from loot it, below 1, counts as 1, fails as 1 is less than 2. Modifying datasheet however that 1 was pass as you rolled your save so you onlv fail on native 1's.
Annoingly it's not like can't modify below 1 isn't even absolute rule anymore so this nerf was unneeded
Is anyone else a little sad that Nobz aren't good yet? If you look at them from a purely theoretical stance, on paper at least, they are beasts. 14pts for a S5 2W 3 attack 4+ save model that can easily be given 5 attacks (2 choppas) for no points increase. These guys should be absolute monsters, but for some reason they suck.
I am talking from a purely competitive standpoint. Do to how wounds work and the plethora of 2 damage weapons floating about, having 2 wounds doesn't really mean all that much, and those weapons with 2 dmg usually have -1 to -2 AP which means that 4+ save is now a T-shirt again. And at the cost of 10 Nobz you can field 20 Boyz. 10 Nobz with double Choppas have 50 attacks, the Boyz have 80.
I have seen a lot of Space Marine players compare Nobz and Tactical Marines, saying that Marines are too expensive at 13pts and nobz shouldn't get a buff because they are as good as tacticals already.....well, correct me if I am wrong, but don't marine players constantly complain that Tactical Marines are garbage and need a buff to be competitive? wouldn't that mean by that logic that Nobz are in a bad spot as well?
I have so many nobz in my army and I would love to be able to field them.
I think Nobz are decent. I think their biggest issue is the same issue most Ork units have: lackluster shooting. When 50+% of the game is played at range, poor shooting hurts.
Then again assault units have their place and these come in and charge before enemy can do anything. Trick is clearing chaff. And play against list without tons of d2 weapons which turns nobz into joke.
Even then, I kinda feel like we have better Assault options than Nobz, like the Bonebreaker. I don't think they're bad, but I do feel like they need some tweaks to find their place. They're just competing with a lot of solid options for their role.
The problem with Nobz is they die so easily. As most things in the ork codex. But cost so many points compared to how easily they wither away. If you wanted them in a better spot, you’d have to buff them.. but then other things would need buffed. Tau guns should be ap3, guardsman should cost 1ppm less and the list goes on and on of what others would WANT for their armies. If you like the unit take it, even though it’s bad if you want to be competitive, then you have to play flavor of the week. You just missed the only flavor unfortunately that had orks seeing decent results, mob up loota bomb.. but that needed to go anyway
Ummm no if bad unit gets buffed to reasonable level that does not mean tau basic guns need ap3 or ig troopers need to be 3 pts or whatever. You can, funny that, buff bad units without screwing balance. It's when you buff already good units problems come
I like how the unreasonable "if you do this, then you have to do this" things come out. Yeah, sure. If we drop Nobz by 1-2 pts per model, we should probably give a Castellan a native 2++ Invuln and 20 more Wounds, right? Get real. GW makes adjustments to units all the time without going to the extremes you're putting out there.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Orkz have one of the best, if not THE best Mono Codex Armies in the game right now. If tomorrow GW said "You can only build Armies with a single Codex", I don't doubt that Orkz would be in top spots in every single tournament. At the very least we'd see a wider variety of winners than Flyer Spam and Imperial Soup.
flandarz wrote: I like how the unreasonable "if you do this, then you have to do this" things come out. Yeah, sure. If we drop Nobz by 1-2 pts per model, we should probably give a Castellan a native 2++ Invuln and 20 more Wounds, right? Get real. GW makes adjustments to units all the time without going to the extremes you're putting out there.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Orkz have one of the best, if not THE best Mono Codex Armies in the game right now. If tomorrow GW said "You can only build Armies with a single Codex", I don't doubt that Orkz would be in top spots in every single tournament. At the very least we'd see a wider variety of winners than Flyer Spam and Imperial Soup.
Orks have.. the best? No. No my friend not at all. Imperial guard, Craftworlds, drukhari, gene cult and tau have the best mono codex. They are all top tier. Yours is second tier. It’s good but has hiccups. Please don’t exaggerate
Kinda funny when your solution to "Nobz could use a point drop" was to immediately exaggerate.
Judging from what we've seen at tournaments, I'll have to disagree. Generally, Orkz perform very well until they run up against one of the armies I mentioned above. That said, YMMV, of course. In my own, I tend to do very well against the two Tau players I go up against. Probably something like 70-30 Win/Loss ratios.
But I'll grant you that we have some growing to do. We kinda got hit hard when CA dropped right after our Codex and everyone got price drops except for Orkz. We'll see what comes up in the future.
flandarz wrote: Kinda funny when your solution to "Nobz could use a point drop" was to immediately exaggerate.
Judging from what we've seen at tournaments, I'll have to disagree. Generally, Orkz perform very well until they run up against one of the armies I mentioned above. That said, YMMV, of course. In my own, I tend to do very well against the two Tau players I go up against. Probably something like 70-30 Win/Loss ratios.
But I'll grant you that we have some growing to do. We kinda got hit hard when CA dropped right after our Codex and everyone got price drops except for Orkz. We'll see what comes up in the future.
If it isn’t ITC it isn’t very competitive. (In itc orks do very poor). That’s not why I like itc. Take the Alamo gt. The winning list was Tzaangors spam beat imperial knights why? Because they played enclosed ruins, non itc format, and had all 4 objectives on first floor of those ruins.. knights could see or get to them somlost. This is just one example of why tournament results that aren’t itc are not that great. As far as your tau players, it doesn’t sound like they have room to grow. Unfortunate. Or they don’t player hyper competitive.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I’m assuming they don’t because you didn’t realize the Coldstar is a suicide unit and couldn’t understand why someone would throw it away. You should always throw it away to kill things you need
Well, I play Orkz. What are they gonna throw the Coldstar at that will get its points back? He doesn't have the shots to take out a Mob of Orkz in any size greater than 5. And our vehicles aren't exactly prime targets for him either.
I don't know if there was an ITC since then, but the one I remember (back in November or so?) two Ork armies made it into the top 20, out of 800 players. That's not exactly "do poorly" range. Can't say much about other tournament configurations, but the OP has 3-4 lists that made top 3 or better at other tournaments.
I'll end with: I would play Orkz even if they actually WERE the worst army in the game. Because I like them. I like their Lore. I like their Kultur. I like how it feels to play Orkz; how aggressive you feel. That's me. I didn't choose to play Orkz because they were the best (I started playing pre-Codex when practically the only viable build was Green Tide). I chose to play Orkz because they're my favorite. I say all this because I don't really feel the need to defend them to you. If your experiences with Orkz makes you feel like they suck, then I can't argue that. I can only argue my own experiences and what I've seen in tournaments.
flandarz wrote: Well, I play Orkz. What are they gonna throw the Coldstar at that will get its points back? He doesn't have the shots to take out a Mob of Orkz in any size greater than 5. And our vehicles aren't exactly prime targets for him either.
I don't know if there was an ITC since then, but the one I remember (back in November or so?) two Ork armies made it into the top 20, out of 800 players. That's not exactly "do poorly" range. Can't say much about other tournament configurations, but the OP has 3-4 lists that made top 3 or better at other tournaments.
I'll end with: I would play Orkz even if they actually WERE the worst army in the game. Because I like them. I like their Lore. I like their Kultur. I like how it feels to play Orkz; how aggressive you feel. That's me. I didn't choose to play Orkz because they were the best (I started playing pre-Codex when practically the only viable build was Green Tide). I chose to play Orkz because they're my favorite. I say all this because I don't really feel the need to defend them to you. If your experiences with Orkz makes you feel like they suck, then I can't argue that. I can only argue my own experiences and what I've seen in tournaments.
Mind you I said orks were right under the mono codex I said above in my previous post. That IS STILL top tier. I simply said they weren’t the best mono faction codex. They do not suck, they just aren’t the best but they ARE top. I don’t hate orks. I hate false information. Orks do well in tournaments, but a little worse than the above factions I stated. I’ll end with that.
flandarz wrote: I like how the unreasonable "if you do this, then you have to do this" things come out. Yeah, sure. If we drop Nobz by 1-2 pts per model, we should probably give a Castellan a native 2++ Invuln and 20 more Wounds, right? Get real. GW makes adjustments to units all the time without going to the extremes you're putting out there.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Orkz have one of the best, if not THE best Mono Codex Armies in the game right now. If tomorrow GW said "You can only build Armies with a single Codex", I don't doubt that Orkz would be in top spots in every single tournament. At the very least we'd see a wider variety of winners than Flyer Spam and Imperial Soup.
Orks have.. the best? No. No my friend not at all. Imperial guard, Craftworlds, drukhari, gene cult and tau have the best mono codex. They are all top tier. Yours is second tier. It’s good but has hiccups. Please don’t exaggerate
outside of tau everything you posted is only competitive using allies. Imperial guard was the best mono dex but has been nerfed in every which way. Orks regularly place in the top 10 in nearly every tournament that’s hardly second tier.
To be fair orks tau and necrons need to be the best mono dexs as they have no allies.
Personally I think people are complaining about our okay units way to much. Nobs are good, manz are good.... what needs help are kilakans (dread mob) trucks (truck boyz), burnas and kinda warbikers (bikestars) all of which are the basis of ork lists that don’t work anymore. (Stompa too)
We’ve moved into the shooty (sag, loota, mekgunz) with large boy (boyz, grots, stormboys kinda) unit edition of orks. Sprinkled with some other units to make your detachment mostly involving index options that won’t exist in the future (kommandos, deffkotpa, bike characters, mek w kff) add in a weirdboy or 2 which are good.... orks won’t really work as well once the index is gone.
That's fair. And, you know what? I'll count that as a win. Considering your original stance was "Orkz were, are, and always will be the punching bag army", getting you to "one of the best" is a big step in the right direction. @Jidmah: go ahead and update the OP with a new victory for the Orkz. We got the Tau to admit that we're one of the best!
Honestly? Been a pleasure debating with you, P4P. Have a good one.
I agree. Our worse units really need some love. I feel like we need some Grot specific stuff, especially Stratagems. Right now they only ones that work for them are Grot Shields and Stratagems that target enemies instead of the player unit. That said, I don't think we need Index to be competitive. Plenty of solid options there, no doubt. But we can work with the Codex. The hardest hit will be losing Big Meks with KFFs, so I'm hoping the MegaArmor Mek will get a price drop before they kill the Index.
personally, only issue i have with nobz is the usual Autocannon-type shot is too easily spammed and it just eats low toughness 2W models without even trying, even if they have a proper save.
Pricewise i dont have an issue with them. If i manage to delete the autocannon type weapons before the nobz are around they usually dont die, or at least are still half strength by game end. If i dont, they last 1 round (the round they arrived)
Only actual Ork unit i hope gets a proper buff is Burnas because wow...just...wtf...they are complete garbage both shooty and assaulty.
Would love some grot specific love of course but other than killakanz getting something minor i dont expect anything.
flandarz wrote: That's fair. And, you know what? I'll count that as a win. Considering your original stance was "Orkz were, are, and always will be the punching bag army", getting you to "one of the best" is a big step in the right direction. @Jidmah: go ahead and update the OP with a new victory for the Orkz. We got the Tau to admit that we're one of the best!
Honestly? Been a pleasure debating with you, P4P. Have a good one.
I agree. Our worse units really need some love. I feel like we need some Grot specific stuff, especially Stratagems. Right now they only ones that work for them are Grot Shields and Stratagems that target enemies instead of the player unit. That said, I don't think we need Index to be competitive. Plenty of solid options there, no doubt. But we can work with the Codex. The hardest hit will be losing Big Meks with KFFs, so I'm hoping the MegaArmor Mek will get a price drop before they kill the Index.
The gear I’m on sometimes causes me to be a bit hot headed. So that’s my bad
Outside of killakans no way grots get buffed... mekguns and grots are already borderline OP.
Mind you grots are really this good because of grot shield but they already outperform units like conscripts. Not saying runtherders can’t be made cheaper but ya I expect nor do I want any buffs to grots.
Like I said buff killakans, burnas, trukks, warbikers, and stompa and nearly every unit is decent.
In and of themselves, Grots aren't great. 3ppm for a unit that Wounds T4 models on a 5+ at range and 6+ in CC, and who die to a stiff breeze aint exactly cost-effective. What make them good is that they can die for better units and they allow us to make cheap Battalions for CP generation. I, personally, wouldn't mind some Grot specific Stratagems or Abilities, so they can be a bit more effective. Like "Cowards: Gretchin Infantry in Cover get a +2 to their Save Rolls, instead of a +1", or "Fungus Brew (1CP): Gretchin units automatically pass Morale tests." I don't think either of these would be "broken" and they would help Grots be more than meatshields and CP batteries.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To be clear, I'm not on the "Grots need a buff" boat. I just think these would be nice, thematic thing that would make Grots cooler.
flandarz wrote: In and of themselves, Grots aren't great. 3ppm for a unit that Wounds T4 models on a 5+ at range and 6+ in CC, and who die to a stiff breeze aint exactly cost-effective. What make them good is that they can die for better units and they allow us to make cheap Battalions for CP generation. I, personally, wouldn't mind some Grot specific Stratagems or Abilities, so they can be a bit more effective. Like "Cowards: Gretchin Infantry in Cover get a +2 to their Save Rolls, instead of a +1", or "Fungus Brew (1CP): Gretchin units automatically pass Morale tests." I don't think either of these would be "broken" and they would help Grots be more than meatshields and CP batteries.
Yeah, I was hoping that we could have a 1CP, "Suicide Grot" stratagem similar to what Necrons have with scarabs where we can have a grot die in cc and on a 3+ cause D3 mortal wounds. Something to give more utility to grots beyond objective holders and CP batteries
The only thing that even remotely makes grots OP is the grotshield ability to make a blob of lootas nigh unkillable for several turns.
Grots themselves are complete and utter trash.
Vineheart01 wrote: The only thing that even remotely makes grots OP is the grotshield ability to make a blob of lootas nigh unkillable for several turns.
Grots themselves are complete and utter trash.
Right unkillable...riiiight. Apart from there being 2 factions that flat out ignores that the grots can also be shot down quickly. T2 means anything with S4 is clearing(obviously you don't fire first at lootas but instead grots). I have had several times 15 lootas and 60 grots cleared in T1 by sheer weight of dice. T2 is latest if opponent wants to deal.
And if you don't have 30 strong blocks flyers and T1 charges will also deal with lootas nicely.
flandarz wrote: Kinda funny when your solution to "Nobz could use a point drop" was to immediately exaggerate.
Judging from what we've seen at tournaments, I'll have to disagree. Generally, Orkz perform very well until they run up against one of the armies I mentioned above. That said, YMMV, of course. In my own, I tend to do very well against the two Tau players I go up against. Probably something like 70-30 Win/Loss ratios.
But I'll grant you that we have some growing to do. We kinda got hit hard when CA dropped right after our Codex and everyone got price drops except for Orkz. We'll see what comes up in the future.
Any tips and tricks that cause hassle to tau players would be appreciated.
Also Imo tau do not need ap3 they’re doing fine without it.
addnid wrote: I own several scrapjets and I just don't get it, how do they work without being taken by the dozen ? They are easy to take out, they don't shoot very far so they need to get into that 24 inch "great danger range". They deal decent damage so long as they don't shoot on a -1 to hit target.
So how does 2 scrapjets help in his list ? They cost 110 per piece !!
Edit: ah so blood axe scrapjets for that cover save while 18 inch away. Still not convinced, but I want to be !
Honestly though all these ork lists don't stand a chance against any my GSC lists for example... Perhaps they had good match ups i dunno
Got a tournament with my freebooterz at the end of this month and will face some gsc for sure. I never met them before; any tip on how to counter them? What are the gsc weakness?
I need you to paste your list, can’t help you otherwise. Basically you need to prevent them from killing all your boys when gsc turn 2 hits
CaptainO wrote:I like putting grots in vehicles when the vehicle also contains characters. Prevents the possibility of removing an expensive model when it invariably goes kaboom.
I'm investigating taking a Bad moon warboss, giving him the blunderbus relic and big choppa and putting him in a trukk with 10 grots. It basically becomes a Hellhound. Invariably when the trukk goes kablamo my opponent will still have to deal with a close combat monster that can use grot shield with what remains of his grot entourage. 166points . Anyone tried this?
CaptainO wrote:
I'm half considering loading 7 Bad moonz MANZ up in a battlewagon with 5 Kommandos and a blunderbus warboss. They'd either push straight up the board and put out a reasonable amount of firepower or I could teleport the battewagon in for 2CP. The MANZ and Blunderbus boss can put out a pretty reasonable amount of firepower (2d6 S5 autohits + 28 S4 reroll 1s). The battlewagon could then use the ramming speed strat to get into cc. I've no illusions that the wagon would be blown up but the bare bones Kommandos would take those wounds (hopefully leaving the two index burnas to deter any charges along with the blunderbus boss).
I love this idea as well but as I'm away from my minis for a good bit of time I don't get to field test it. I'll be following how you fare with him. It may not be super competitive but I just find that guy hilarious, it's the Arch-Arsonist of Charadon personified on a battlefield.
EDIT: OK, I went overboard with ideas there, sorry for the wall of text... TL;DR if you have no interest in the Blunderbuss just skip the post
In the various configuration there's always the Kombi-Skorcha issue, of questionable value at the moment but may hopefully be better after a CA points drop sometime in the future.
It's too expensive in most cases, but if you're in range for regular shooting or overwatch, it may be just that little extra that allows you to wipe a squad (or enough to let morale finish it off) or cripple just enough a charging unit to chop its teeth off.
I don't really know.
If you go all-in on making him work remember he can get to Show-Off as well - if you're running a decent amount of Bad Moonz you'll surely get better targets but if your detachment is mostly him and his pals it may come handy sometimes, especially if you've splurged for the Kombi-Skorcha : 6D6 S5 AP-1 autohits... some Orkz just like to watch the galaxy burn
Anyway, couple of configuration I've thought of (disclaimer: no-Index here):
----------
A) In a Trukk
Due to target priority / survivability issues it's best to cost-control the other passengers, so like you I like grotz with him, for character protection or in a pinch grot-shield if you really need him to stay alive. This configuration primarily wants to stay at range and do drive-bys (until the Trukk blows-up of course) so loading up with CC cargo or increasing too much the threat-level of the passengers is the wrong alley IMHO. A case can be made for Shoota Boyz though, to improve the chaff-clearing potential and the odd TankBusta Bomb.
I'd use this unit either as a chaff-clearer to pave the way for main-force assault or as a flank/backfield harasser.
1] Warboss, Kustom Shoota, Big Choppa (72)
10 Grots (30)
Trukk with BS (64)
= 166/181 pts (second cost is with KS)
> That's the one you mentioned. Cheapest, low-ish threat priority, can work on his own and go clear chaff or harass a backfield.
> Also, a brigade-filler Minimek can tag along for a KMS shot here and there (total 195/210pts) - KMB if Index, but if you're ready to invest that many points maybe it's time for considering the Shootaboyz option (total 206/221 or 211/226 with Big Shoota)
> Steeper investement than the WB, still decent CC as you're paying for the PK but adds some staying power after the inevitable Trukk wreckage, for a guy that is likely to be stranded a bit alone.
> I'd be likely to include a Tellyport Blasta but it's just me - just love the looks (197/212 pts). I'dd argue against a KFF here (206/221 pts) as it feels a bit wasted but it may come handy for the rest of your army if you use him as a chaff-clearer, less so if he's gone gallivanting on his own on a flank.
> 226/241 pts (231/246 with BS) with Shoota boyz but we're getting into pricey territory here for a Trukk
----------
B) In a BoneBreaka
Questionable idea because it's not open topped - but hey, as mentioned at the beginning the whole concept isn't very competitive so you may as well steer it towards the fun side. It isn't anymore about flamer drive-bys but about crashing into CC and having the Arch-Arsonist support the BB and contents. I don't know, I just picture the guy driving himself the BB full speed, jump off movie-style at the last minute, roll on the ground and burn things up while the Deffrolla throws bodies around.
3a] Megamek, Kustom Shoota, PK, Grot Oiler, KFF (116)
8 Nobz: 3x BC & Choppa, 1xPS & Choppa, 4xChoppa&Choppa, Ammo runt (134)
BoneBreaka (159)
= 409/424 pts
> Now we're talking serious cost and eggs in one basket stuff. The BB gets a KFF save on the way in, then everybody jumps off, the Arch-Arsonist burns stuff up and eveyone else goes into CC. KFF covers your other frontline units and the Mek can repair the BB. Ammo runt and Grot Oiler to take one for the team if the BB explodes (that thing will have a massive "Shoot me" sign...).
Either it makes a glorious charge or blows up too far away from enemy lines and fails miserably
>You're relying on the single Grot Oiler to tank damage if things go south, but if Meganobz is your thing there you go.
3c] Nob with Waagh Banner (77)
9 Nobz: 1xPK & Choppa, 3x BC & Choppa, 1xPS & Choppa, 4xChoppa&Choppa, Ammo runt (160)
BoneBreaka (159)
= 397 pts
> It's a tidbit cheaper, you're losing the KFF protection, repair ability, and Kombi-Skorcha option; and relying on a single Ammo runt for damage-tanking. Glorious CC but unless you have a KFF somewhere else I hardly see the wagon reaching the enemy.
----------
C) In a Battlewagon
There are more options here, as the extra transport capacity means you can add back the grot/shoota squad to tank explosions and ObSec, and open-topped for flame-bys.
> Back to cheapo-version on a more durable platform, with some space to add extra punch to taste. Though if you start adding pricy cargo you'll surely need a KFF somewhere or replace the Warboss with the Megamek.
> Ok Burnas aren't great but if you want to go full flame without going nuts on Nobz with Kombi-Skorchaz, there's that. And maybe a future CA will make this decent.
8] Remove Grots and fill up with Shoota boyz
= 325/340 pts
> Fire-support platform to go full-on chaff clearing. May be a bit pricey for the job though...
For all the latest options, add 20 to the cost to replace the Warboss with a Megamek with KFF. It may make sense with pricier cargo. If you want to go with the Nob with Waagh banner, as he's going to be out in the open as well you may revert to the BoneBreaka option as the loss of open-topped is less.
-------------
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway, after this big post, there are a lot of options especially in a Battlewagon where Arsonist + Grots leaves 9-8 spots to add whatever you feel like. But basically I feel there are two avenues there:
- Keep cost down to just the AA and his Grots either in a Trukk or BW for 166/222 pts to try and not make it too much of a target. Warboss is probably the best choice here, though a Megamek to feel less exposed in the open may work as well.
- Go big or go home and start piling-up other passengers, but now you're looking at the 400ish points range so this is going to have to be more central to your strategy. Generally a Megamek may work better here for the repair/KFF possibilities, but a Warboss to support the CC content isn't too bad.
So there CaptainO, if this inspires you to try more versions of the Arch-Arsonist, let me know how that goes I'll happily read the reports
Any tips and tricks that cause hassle to tau players would be appreciated.
Also Imo tau do not need ap3 they’re doing fine without it.
What works for me is... well, outshooting them. Tau firepower tends to center around being within 18" of the target. They got some longer range stuff too, of course, but most of that is Anti-Tank. As for Orkz: we actually have a lot of firing options in the 24" and longer range. So, my basic strategy is to hit them with Smashaz, SSAG, and Lootas/Flash Gitz from long range and make them move across the board if they want to use their Rapid Fire weapons effectively. I don't even bother with charging until at least T3, which tends to catch them off guard. I guess they always expect Orkz to just blindly charge in.
Played in a small 1500 tourney today, took 1st place running this:
Spoiler:
Deathskulls
Ssag mek
Wierdboy
9 shootaboyz with rokkit and nob in trukk with rokkit
10 shootaboyz with rokkit and nob in trukk with rokkit
10 grots
Burna bomber
3 smashas
koooaei wrote: Played in a small 1500 tourney today, took 1st place running this:
Spoiler:
Deathskulls
Ssag mek
Wierdboy
9 shootaboyz with rokkit and nob in trukk with rokkit
10 shootaboyz with rokkit and nob in trukk with rokkit
10 grots
Burna bomber
3 smashas
Congrats on the win! What would you say was the MVP for your list in the tourney? I'm also surprised you took a burna bomber over a dakkajet, I know a dakkajet is more ideal in a BM detachment, but as far as chaff clearing goes, they're one of our top units. How was the performance of the Burna Bomber?
Congrats on the win! What would you say was the MVP for your list in the tourney? I'm also surprised you took a burna bomber over a dakkajet, I know a dakkajet is more ideal in a BM detachment, but as far as chaff clearing goes, they're one of our top units. How was the performance of the Burna Bomber?
Hard to call out one thing as mvp. One game ssag mek was rolling hot, the other he was rolling poor. One game grots were shot down the other they scored vital points.
Burna bomber is hard to evaluate. In a game vs dark angels it bombed 3 helblasters and shot down an intercessor turn 1 instantly earning it's points back (well, almost) and than the opponent was forced to create a 6' no man's land around it and shoot it down with blasters, looosing another one in the process. In a game vs blood angels it bombed just one dc guy and shot down another one but than it forced the opponent to leave his killiest unit - smash captain - in his deployment zone to take down a plane. And than it exploded dealing 3 mw to cap, intercessors and another char (but char made 2 5+++ saves).
In the end it's more of an utility unit just in case you need to bomb some nasty infantry unit like shining spears, azrael helblasters with -1 to hit and banner, maybe genestealers cause you do need to get rid of them asap and so on. There might also be plenty of games where it doesn't do much. Like vs ig gunline where it's not gona pay off and can be ignored. Or dark eldar boat spam.
As for trukkboyz, they're not too bad with a rokkit but not a top tier unit. Nice to have on flanks though. They shot at stuff, killed something, scored, even participated in clearing chaff.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You know, after the codex drop, my old plane-sag mek idea might be pretty viable.
It's based on running a bunch of shooty characters and planes - mostly burnabombers. Something like:
Badrukk
3 sag meks
3 kmb meks
3 burna bombers
And some other planes and characters, maybe some grots and kommandoes.
The trick is that enemy can only shoot at planes. And in some cases burna bombers can do some serious damage if exploded.
Sag has gotten significantly buffed and is now a legit anti-tank threat while planes can clear chaff well enough.
koooaei wrote: Played in a small 1500 tourney today, took 1st place running this:
Spoiler:
Deathskulls
Ssag mek
Wierdboy
9 shootaboyz with rokkit and nob in trukk with rokkit
10 shootaboyz with rokkit and nob in trukk with rokkit
10 grots
Burna bomber
3 smashas
Any tips and tricks that cause hassle to tau players would be appreciated.
Also Imo tau do not need ap3 they’re doing fine without it.
What works for me is... well, outshooting them. Tau firepower tends to center around being within 18" of the target. They got some longer range stuff too, of course, but most of that is Anti-Tank. As for Orkz: we actually have a lot of firing options in the 24" and longer range. So, my basic strategy is to hit them with Smashaz, SSAG, and Lootas/Flash Gitz from long range and make them move across the board if they want to use their Rapid Fire weapons effectively. I don't even bother with charging until at least T3, which tends to catch them off guard. I guess they always expect Orkz to just blindly charge in.
I think you’re right dude. Now all I have to do is develop sufficient self control to hold back the boyz. The tau just look so squishy... asking to be krumped. I’ve invested in 15 lootas so with my SSag and smasha mekgun I have a reasonable firebase (all 3 are bad moonz) I’m also trying 3 bad moonz index mega blasta deffkoptas (looted Custodes jet bikes). Mostly to fill out fast attack but they make good use of the Reroll 1s. Even if 1 shot hits it’s s8 ap-3 or -4 d6 damage. I’m interested in people’s thoughts on fast attack options for filling out a brigade. I love me some CPs and spend em like they’re going out of fashion.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway, after this big post, there are a lot of options especially in a Battlewagon where Arsonist + Grots leaves 9-8 spots to add whatever you feel like. But basically I feel there are two avenues there:
- Keep cost down to just the AA and his Grots either in a Trukk or BW for 166/222 pts to try and not make it too much of a target. Warboss is probably the best choice here, though a Megamek to feel less exposed in the open may work as well.
- Go big or go home and start piling-up other passengers, but now you're looking at the 400ish points range so this is going to have to be more central to your strategy. Generally a Megamek may work
So there CaptainO, if this inspires you to try more versions of the Arch-Arsonist, let me know how that goes I'll happily read the reports
That’s a lot of food for thought dude thanks.
I like the idea of deepstrikkng him in an open topped vehicle. Maybe the battle wagon. 6 MANZ, the warboss, 5 kommandos which would leave 2 spaces for characters (kff mek/waaagh banner nob)if you wanted to go all out.
If you played against a tau gun line you could focus the lootas, SSAG and Mek gunz at distance t1 then t2 deepstrike in the open topped battlewagon with defo rolla. You could shoot 2d6 blunderbus shots, 30 s4 shots (MANZ kustom shootas + kommandos and waaagh banner nob) rerolling 1s.
I was thinking you could da jump grots beside the battle wagon in case it doesn’t make its charge so worst case scenario you’ve got a grot shielded MANZ unit 9” away next turn.
Medium case scenario case scenario you use the 3d6” charge strat to crash into combat with whatever MW that strat adds on.
Best case scenario would be punching through the opponents lines and finishing 1” away from an enemy vehicle allowing you to use the boarding party strat. 6 Pk attacks, 2 burna attacks(from the kommandos squad) a big choppy and a waaagh banner. That could lay a leman Russ low. Might even trouble a knight.
I like the idea of Just giving the relic to the waaagh banner nob. His normal MO is to hang back and buff units with +1 to hit. Any turn the blunder is isn’t being gak is a turn where you have been better off with the kills klaw.
Game on Tuesday against an unknown opponent. Should be interesting.
koooaei wrote: Played in a small 1500 tourney today, took 1st place running this:
Spoiler:
Deathskulls
Ssag mek
Wierdboy
9 shootaboyz with rokkit and nob in trukk with rokkit
10 shootaboyz with rokkit and nob in trukk with rokkit
10 grots
Burna bomber
3 smashas
That's a really interesting list. Any chance of a quick run down on how a few of the games went
Sure. First game was ca maelstorm with 4 cards and turning off one enemy card for a turn for 1 cp. Played vs Dark angels with Azrael, speeder lieutenant, darkshrowd, 2x5 intercessors, 5 sniper scouts, 10 helblasters, primaris banner, 3 bolter bumblbees and 3 agressors. He also had a dread.
I found out dark angels had a 1 cp strategem to keep their mission cards hidden which was a HUGE bonus for this mission cause i basically couldn't turn off his most potent mission cards.
He got 1st turn, so i placed stuff further in my dz to stay out of reach of his main shooting, so he mostly advanced and scored.
My turn i killed bumblbees for 1st blood, shot ssag mek at a shrowd but it passed 7 out of 8 4++ saves. Burna bomber burned down 3 hrlblasters and shot down an intercessor. Some rokkit potshots and shootas killed scouts, one agressor and one extra intercessor. Orks scored a couple points.
Next turn marines shot down a plane, one trukk, all boyz from this trukk, 10 grots and 10+ footslogging boyz.
Than boyz, grots, last trukk, trukkboyz and biker boss moved forward, meganobz dropped, got auspexed by helblasters. All grot shields and 4 meganobz got killed in the process. Than orks shot at stuff, kilked dread, agressors, some intercessors, charged in with boyz but all 4 helblasters overheated thanks to rerolls killing 2 more meganobz and boyz couldn't charge anymore . Remaining manz charged in to wiff at a speeder character, boss killed azrael taking a bunch of wounds in return from other chars around having q wound remaining, trukk and trukkboyz finished off some intercessors on the flank.
We were out of time and decided to not continue. Orks had 7 maelstorm points, marines had 5 and orks were like 300 points ahead.
Another game was vs blood angels with a lot of characters, sanguinary guards, death co and some chaff.
Won't go into details here. Orks went 1st, shot down death co, burna bomber exploded dealing nice damage to smash cap, corbulo and intercessors. Scored a lot in maelstorm, spent 2 cp to autopass morale for 3 grots in cc with astorat scoring even more and continued to shoot down characters with ssag and rokkits. Played quite defensively and scored a lot. The opponent gave up turn 3.
Btw, this blood angel had no problems dealing with an ik + leman russ + chaff list. But objectively, shooty orks countered him pretty hard cause we have too much stuff rolling around.
Dark angels are on the other hand quite hard to deal with as they counter deepstrike and are protected from ork shooting quite well. 6 helblasters killing 6 manz on an ork's turn EVEN with 10 grot shields is nothing out of ordinary for them.
addnid wrote: I own several scrapjets and I just don't get it, how do they work without being taken by the dozen ? They are easy to take out, they don't shoot very far so they need to get into that 24 inch "great danger range". They deal decent damage so long as they don't shoot on a -1 to hit target.
So how does 2 scrapjets help in his list ? They cost 110 per piece !!
Edit: ah so blood axe scrapjets for that cover save while 18 inch away. Still not convinced, but I want to be !
Honestly though all these ork lists don't stand a chance against any my GSC lists for example... Perhaps they had good match ups i dunno
Got a tournament with my freebooterz at the end of this month and will face some gsc for sure. I never met them before; any tip on how to counter them? What are the gsc weakness?
I need you to paste your list, can’t help you otherwise. Basically you need to prevent them from killing all your boys when gsc turn 2 hits
++ Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Orks) [22 PL, 465pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Clan Kultur: Freebooterz
+ Flyer +
Dakkajet [7 PL, 148pts]: 6x Supa Shoota
Dakkajet [7 PL, 148pts]: 6x Supa Shoota
Wazbom Blastajet [8 PL, 169pts]: 2x Wazbom Mega-Kannons, Kustom Force Field, Smasha Gun, Supa Shoota
I usually deploy everything as I would start 2nd, 6 cp goes to shoot twice for the SSAG or the Gorkanaut, depends if vs horde or not.
The plane are an harrasment and treath to backline champs. I usually take a plane or the shoota boyz or a gunz to proc +1 to hit. I rarely jump the shoota before T2, i play slowly and tend to occupy half field from t2 onwards. I only play ITC.
The stormboyz are a objective grabber or counter DS distraction.
Glad you like it - that guy is a niche interest, happy to share with a fellow fan
CaptainO wrote: I like the idea of Just giving the relic to the waaagh banner nob. His normal MO is to hang back and buff units with +1 to hit. Any turn the blunder is isn’t being gak is a turn where you have been better off with the kills klaw.
I've never seriously looked into that one because my main is Deathskullz or Freebooterz, I'm slotting in a BM detachment just for him and the <Clan> restriction on the banner is a killer.
So I mostly approach him as a lone wolf unit so usually the Megamek felt more obvious for a better save in the open and the repair ability to keep the BW in a decent bracket. I'm less convinced by the Warboss as you are tempted to go into combat even with just a BC where you're losing the Blunderbuss. Though at 72pts both (WB with BC, Mek barebones) they are easily switched for testing purposes.
Now if you have more passengers to send in the fight, the Banner Nob starts to look good because as you said the MO synergizes well with the weapon.
I like the idea of deepstrikkng him in an open topped vehicle. Maybe the battle wagon. 6 MANZ, the warboss, 5 kommandos which would leave 2 spaces for characters (kff mek/waaagh banner nob)if you wanted to go all out.
If you played against a tau gun line you could focus the lootas, SSAG and Mek gunz at distance t1 then t2 deepstrike in the open topped battlewagon with defo rolla. You could shoot 2d6 blunderbus shots, 30 s4 shots (MANZ kustom shootas + kommandos and waaagh banner nob) rerolling 1s.
I was thinking you could da jump grots beside the battle wagon in case it doesn’t make its charge so worst case scenario you’ve got a grot shielded MANZ unit 9” away next turn.
Medium case scenario case scenario you use the 3d6” charge strat to crash into combat with whatever MW that strat adds on.
Best case scenario would be punching through the opponents lines and finishing 1” away from an enemy vehicle allowing you to use the boarding party strat. 6 Pk attacks, 2 burna attacks(from the kommandos squad) a big choppy and a waaagh banner. That could lay a leman Russ low. Might even trouble a knight.
With the usual caveats for DSing transports of being comfortable with a T3 charge, and being careful with being surrounded risks; I quite like it as well. It lands at full health in range for shooting.
Good thinking about contingency plans for failed charges, or stratagem uses.
If you have the points, some shooting upgrades for the BW may make sense, extra Big Shootas to supplement the MANz or why not a Killkannon to help soften up that Leman or Knight
CaptainO 767149 10459269 nulll wrote:
Game on Tuesday against an unknown opponent. Should be interesting.
Good burning !
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CaptainO wrote: Can you use bad moonz showing off with over watch?
Was someone thinking of showing off an overwatching blunderbuss?
Also, I've been thinking about the Kommandos; since if you're going the no-Grots route to open up more spaces for MANz, maybe it's worth thinking about either Burnas for the Spanner KMK shot (and added flame - admittedly subpar - for the later turns, or more CC burna attacks for boarding plank), or Tankbustas if we're keeping with the idea of threatening hard targets with the Boarding stratagem in the best case scenario, though it makes the BW in CC less appealing or forces the TBs to disembark.
Costs more for sure, but we're exploring the go big or go home territory at the moment
A Big Trakk with Supa Skorcha could be a good option for Tellyporta with a character equipped with the Blunderbuss. Both have the range to shoot after being Tellyported.
I usually deploy everything as I would start 2nd, 6 cp goes to shoot twice for the SSAG or the Gorkanaut, depends if vs horde or not.
The plane are an harrasment and treath to backline champs. I usually take a plane or the shoota boyz or a gunz to proc +1 to hit. I rarely jump the shoota before T2, i play slowly and tend to occupy half field from t2 onwards. I only play ITC.
The stormboyz are a objective grabber or counter DS distraction.
My suggestion would be to combine the Air Wing and Spearhead Detachments into another Battalion. Drop the Stormboyz (5 ain't gonna do nothing but die miserably) and use the points to get 3x10 Gretchin. You'll have more effective Grot Shields, more CP, and you can still move or Da Jump the Gretchin onto Objectives, so they'll fill much the same purpose as the Stormboyz. Except they get Zog-Off, and the Stormboyz don't, so they can more effectively "steal" Objectives from your opponent.
Other than that, everything looks solid to me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On another note, cuz using exploding units to hurt your opponent came up, I checked through the Codex to see what our best "suicide" units are. Both the Gunwagon and the Burna Bomba have 4+ explodes, which is solid. The former has *slightly* better damage on an explode (on average), but I'd take a guaranteed 3 MW over D6 MWs any day. Best range on Explode goes to Gork and Mork, though technically the Stompa could have a better range on a good roll.
I don't think basing a list around exploding units is viable, but it'd certainly be interesting.
xlDuke wrote: A Big Trakk with Supa Skorcha could be a good option for Tellyporta with a character equipped with the Blunderbuss. Both have the range to shoot after being Tellyported.
200+ pts and 3cp for what will probably be a 1 shot flamer attack is not exactly what I would call a good investment
xlDuke wrote: A Big Trakk with Supa Skorcha could be a good option for Tellyporta with a character equipped with the Blunderbuss. Both have the range to shoot after being Tellyported.
200+ pts and 3cp for what will probably be a 1 shot flamer attack is not exactly what I would call a good investment
Nor I, I'm just adding to the discussion going on between other posters. In the context of what they're trying to achieve I thought it could be an interesting alternative.
size=9]Automatically Appended Next Post:[/size]
On another note, cuz using exploding units to hurt your opponent came up, I checked through the Codex to see what our best "suicide" units are. Both the Gunwagon and the Burna Bomba have 4+ explodes, which is solid. The former has *slightly* better damage on an explode (on average), but I'd take a guaranteed 3 MW over D6 MWs any day. Best range on Explode goes to Gork and Mork, though technically the Stompa could have a better range on a good roll.
I don't think basing a list around exploding units is viable, but it'd certainly be interesting.
You should also add the boomdakka snazzwagon as it also explodes in a 4+
xlDuke wrote: A Big Trakk with Supa Skorcha could be a good option for Tellyporta with a character equipped with the Blunderbuss. Both have the range to shoot after being Tellyported.
200+ pts and 3cp for what will probably be a 1 shot flamer attack is not exactly what I would call a good investment
Nor I, I'm just adding to the discussion going on between other posters. In the context of what they're trying to achieve I thought it could be an interesting alternative.
I’ll have to give the stats for that vehicle a look.
Has anyone ever been able to use the boarding action strat successfully? From memory it occurs at the end of the fight phase (I don’t have the codes to hand) does this mean that if (and its a big if) the vehicle survives in combat then I could move it (remaining in base to base if I haven’t killed my initial target) to within 1” of a vehicle. It’s almost our most situational strat but I’m investigating how to orchestrate said situation. 1cp for 7+ pK attacks isn’t nothing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It’s almost certainly covered in faqs but I assume the new space marine omnibscrambler effects da jumped boyz. All the more reason to hold back da jump till t2
I didn't add in the Snazzwagon because it has terrible range and damage on its Explode. 3" and D3 MWs means that you're pretty much only gonna hurt units you charged, and even then you won't get much "bang" for your buck.
tneva82 wrote: No. Stratagems can't be used i "as if" phases
You might be right but the wording says "use this strat immediately after resolving a shooting attack with a bad moon infantry unit from your army."
It also says "this strat can only be used once per phase"
Nothing about "As if" phase.
"Orks is never beaten" does however state "as if it were your shooting phase". Can I ask where I can find the bit that says you can't use strats in an "as if" phase?
Pondering a 1850 tourney list centered around a dredmob with 2 gorkanaughts and a morkanaught. Part of me wants to make it a freebooters list, use some units to trigger the trait then let the naughts use the kustom ammo to fire twice. But another part of me has the instinct to add at least one unit of badmoons tankbustas or lootas to make use of showin' off to do more heavy lifting and issue removal.
Would it be worth it to simply make the entire army badmoons to get that constant re-roll 1 and strategem access? Having two units able to fire twice a shooting phase seems to good to pass up. But so does having 3 naughts hitting on 4s in shooting and possibly melee as well.
It never hurts to have Lootas, but with two Gorks I feel like you're already covering what they bring to the table. They're also expensive for a full mob (235 pts), and you're already spending nearly a thousand on the Naughts. If you include them both, you're only gonna have about 600pts for anything else you want. Which makes those 4 units the "lynchpins" of your list. Or, in other words, if I'm your opponent, I'm gonna be looking to take them out ASAP. Another issue is that you'll be spending TONS of CP every turn, between Showing Off, Grot Shields, Kustom Ammo, Command Reroll, Moar Dakka, etc.
Honestly? I think you might be spreading yourself out a bit too far if you try to run two double-shooting units a turn. That said, if you're bringing the Mork for the KFF, consider the Meka-Dread. It's about 40-50 pts cheaper as a KFF platform, and, while not at Mork level, it still has a decent gun (I recommend the Zzappa) and a solid CC weapon.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of "target saturation". But I think 4 units, all at 200+ pt, are just too vulnerable to enemy targetting. Especially the Lootas. But with both, you have prime targets for both AT and anti-infantry fire, basically allowing your opponent to fully utilize his arsenal against you.
You're quite right on all points Flandars. But that's sort of the point of the list. Able to have these 2 big, expensive units firing twice, in theory putting out double the fire power that they should usually. And yes having 3 naughts does mean i've pushed my army in a certain direction it also means that no matter what the games progression I should have a viable target for that sweet kustom ammo. Either mek, mork or gork. A target of value should exist to warrant one of them firing twice at bs4.
Though burning through tonnes of CP is sort of what orks and indeed knight armies do by default. My basic turn outline does have 6cp being used per turn and have an effective 2 extra units pouring out dakka.
In regards to the Mekadread apposed to the gork. I dunno, while the units are very much comparable, I'm rather in love with the Morks new Kustom-mega weapon.
As a modification to my list I could bring in some megatrakks to be mobile, try to trigger or benefit from freebootas. If all things go my way the Loota/tankbusta unit will likely be either out of line of sight or range until I use da jump to move them into position, increasing the likleyhood they survive until their time of glory. At which point the opponent has 3 naughts sauntering up about try to cook their chicken with either 49,000 slaps or 1 big one.
Of course I could drop the lootas, make the force badmoons and use it on the supa shokka then throw in trakks and shockjumps to fill out the weapon needs.
How to tell someone didnt see the FAQ themself and is just using word of mouth as concrete rule changes.
Its literally the first sentence in the answer regarding the "as if" stuff. Its not in the "Designer's Commentary" its in the Rulebook FAQ
Q: When a rule allows a model or unit to take an action (move, shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power) outside of the normal turn sequence, and that rule explicitly mentions to make that action as if it were a different phase of the turn structure to the current one, e.g. ‘That unit can shoot as if it were the Shooting phase’, do rules that are normally used during that phase (in the example this would be the Shooting phase) take effect? Is the same true of Overwatch attacks? A: With the exception of Stratagems, all rules (e.g. abilities, Warlord Traits, psychic powers etc.) that would apply in a specific phase apply to actions that are taking place ‘as if it were that phase’. However, if a Stratagem specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting phase’ to affect a unit that is Shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’). For the purposes of this FAQ, Overwatch attacks are also considered to be attacks made as if it were your Shooting phase.
i dont know why they have 2 different FAQ documents for the main rules.
Yeah one is a lot more wordy on the whys and is formatted better imo but it doesnt cover everything. Also for some reason the Rulebook FAQ likes to not show up on the erattas page.
cody.d. wrote: You're quite right on all points Flandars. But that's sort of the point of the list. Able to have these 2 big, expensive units firing twice, in theory putting out double the fire power that they should usually. And yes having 3 naughts does mean i've pushed my army in a certain direction it also means that no matter what the games progression I should have a viable target for that sweet kustom ammo. Either mek, mork or gork. A target of value should exist to warrant one of them firing twice at bs4.
Though burning through tonnes of CP is sort of what orks and indeed knight armies do by default. My basic turn outline does have 6cp being used per turn and have an effective 2 extra units pouring out dakka.
In regards to the Mekadread apposed to the gork. I dunno, while the units are very much comparable, I'm rather in love with the Morks new Kustom-mega weapon.
As a modification to my list I could bring in some megatrakks to be mobile, try to trigger or benefit from freebootas. If all things go my way the Loota/tankbusta unit will likely be either out of line of sight or range until I use da jump to move them into position, increasing the likleyhood they survive until their time of glory. At which point the opponent has 3 naughts sauntering up about try to cook their chicken with either 49,000 slaps or 1 big one.
Of course I could drop the lootas, make the force badmoons and use it on the supa shokka then throw in trakks and shockjumps to fill out the weapon needs.
Hey, if that's your strategy, I ain't gonna argue you down. I'm just pointing out potential issues as I see them. You're 100% free to run the list you want in the way you want. Your playstyle is probably geared towards making it work.
ok thats just funny.
I literally just looked up the FAQ to pull that quote from and not even an hour later theres a new one saying the exact opposite LOL
Really irritates me purely because of how many other armies get "reroll 1s" auras flat instead of just a phase. Least we still get DDD because that just says shooting attack.
Vineheart01 wrote: i dont know why they have 2 different FAQ documents for the main rules.
Yeah one is a lot more wordy on the whys and is formatted better imo but it doesnt cover everything. Also for some reason the Rulebook FAQ likes to not show up on the erattas page.
Ya that’s what caused the confusion. The designers commentary was one of the first ones that came up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: How to tell someone didnt see the FAQ themself and is just using word of mouth as concrete rule changes.
Its literally the first sentence in the answer regarding the "as if" stuff. Its not in the "Designer's Commentary" its in the Rulebook FAQ
Q: When a rule allows a model or unit to take an action (move, shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power) outside of the normal turn sequence, and that rule explicitly mentions to make that action as if it were a different phase of the turn structure to the current one, e.g. ‘That unit can shoot as if it were the Shooting phase’, do rules that are normally used during that phase (in the example this would be the Shooting phase) take effect? Is the same true of Overwatch attacks?
A: With the exception of Stratagems, all rules (e.g. abilities, Warlord Traits, psychic powers etc.) that would apply in a specific phase apply to actions that are taking place ‘as if it were that phase’. However, if a Stratagem specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting phase’ to affect a unit that is Shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’). For the purposes of this FAQ, Overwatch attacks are also considered to be attacks made as if it were your Shooting phase.
So the bad moons “showing off” strat says “use this immediately after resolving a shooting attack”. It does not specify that it has to be used “in the shooting phase”. It even specified that it can only be used once per phase. I could be wrong but this appears to mean that it can be used in overwatch (or if you used orks is never beaten). “More dakka “ strat on the other hand does specify that it is to be used in the shooting phase which due to the above rule means it could not be used in overwatch (or if you used orks is never beaten strat)
Guys is there any FW model that is competitive at all? Chinork looks ok but it feels like it would be great for burnaz , if burnaz weren't trash.
Anyone tried the Gargantuan Squiggoth?
Also, anyone that uses FG, how do you guys move them in range ? DS? Da Jump? Trukk?
Emicrania wrote: Guys is there any FW model that is competitive at all? Chinork looks ok but it feels like it would be great for burnaz , if burnaz weren't trash.
Anyone tried the Gargantuan Squiggoth?
Also, anyone that uses FG, how do you guys move them in range ? DS? Da Jump? Trukk?
Emicrania wrote: Guys is there any FW model that is competitive at all? Chinork looks ok but it feels like it would be great for burnaz , if burnaz weren't trash. Anyone tried the Gargantuan Squiggoth?
Also, anyone that uses FG, how do you guys move them in range ? DS? Da Jump? Trukk?
I've had success with a big trakk, armed with the supa-skorcha and a pair of skorchas. It's the second fastest transport an ork can get, weirdly enough, at 14" move. I imagine a pair of big trakks flanking a wartrike would be beastly - move 14", advance 3" and charge 7", 24" charge turn 1, on average, with a pretty powerful unit with a transport. 147 points as standard, twice the firepower of a trukk and a faster move, and access to much more dakka. Alternative taktik, roll 14" forwards and flame stuff with supa skorchas, then 8" disembark/move, 7" charge, for a 29" turn 2 charge with the contents, and still having 2 supa-skorchas rolling around to kill stuff.
I'm looking to use the squiggoth (regular size, not gargantuan) in my army (once I've done sculpting one!), planning to get it into combat ASAP and fire tankbustas out of it.
The kill tank was pretty good with a bursta gun, I didn't realise it could dish out mortal wounds when it charged so didn't use it to its full capacity. My opponent was preoccupied with closer targets, on turn 3 they chipped the first wound off and were surprised at how many it had left! it was the sole survivor of the game, I lost fairly thoroughly! Live & learn!
Meka Dread did a lot of damage and then died, if I remember correctly. It can be frighteningly quick! Needs a powerful tank to charge at for maximum damage and minimal recommupance. Don't let your opponent kill you back in your own turn!
addnid wrote: I own several scrapjets and I just don't get it, how do they work without being taken by the dozen ? They are easy to take out, they don't shoot very far so they need to get into that 24 inch "great danger range". They deal decent damage so long as they don't shoot on a -1 to hit target.
So how does 2 scrapjets help in his list ? They cost 110 per piece !!
Edit: ah so blood axe scrapjets for that cover save while 18 inch away. Still not convinced, but I want to be !
Honestly though all these ork lists don't stand a chance against any my GSC lists for example... Perhaps they had good match ups i dunno
Got a tournament with my freebooterz at the end of this month and will face some gsc for sure. I never met them before; any tip on how to counter them? What are the gsc weakness?
I need you to paste your list, can’t help you otherwise. Basically you need to prevent them from killing all your boys when gsc turn 2 hits
++ Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Orks) [22 PL, 465pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Clan Kultur: Freebooterz
+ Flyer +
Dakkajet [7 PL, 148pts]: 6x Supa Shoota
Dakkajet [7 PL, 148pts]: 6x Supa Shoota
Wazbom Blastajet [8 PL, 169pts]: 2x Wazbom Mega-Kannons, Kustom Force Field, Smasha Gun, Supa Shoota
I usually deploy everything as I would start 2nd, 6 cp goes to shoot twice for the SSAG or the Gorkanaut, depends if vs horde or not.
The plane are an harrasment and treath to backline champs. I usually take a plane or the shoota boyz or a gunz to proc +1 to hit. I rarely jump the shoota before T2, i play slowly and tend to occupy half field from t2 onwards. I only play ITC.
The stormboyz are a objective grabber or counter DS distraction.
You just have to deploy the planes on the sides so that turn 1 they move in front in a sort of wall/line and let one get torched by aco flamers, gorkanaut also goes into wall. Try and go second else you will have two turns where min movement for planes will prevent you from being able to use them as a wall. Certainly not the best ork list against gsc that is certain
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has anybody tried out our good old Ghazghkull Thraka lately ? 235 seems overpriced but... I just want to...
What are you guys take on him in the current meta ? Seems that if he was 200 he would see tabletop time
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has anybody tried out our good old Ghazghkull Thraka lately ? 235 seems overpriced but... I just want to...
What are you guys take on him in the current meta ? Seems that if he was 200 he would see tabletop time
Ghaz is wierd.. he is ok in the right list and can be great if you build a list around him, but its usually a case of wanting ghaz and friends. give him a wierdboy for fist of gork and a painboy to give fmp and more importantly healign d3 wounds per turn. but that said that is 3 characters and while those can do a lot of damage they only really work with some lists, and it is 362 points.
now surround ghaz by 120 boyz, and it does work but its is 1262 for just that so in 2k sub 800 points for the rest. preferably in a bigmek w/ relic SAG, mek guns, and mayeb a wazboom plasta jet to move first turn and give them a 5++ plus its awesome shooting. I like to set up jet, then 120 boys as much as you can in that 9 inch bubble which is easy with the bigger flyer base.
problem with Ghaz is the usual assaulty-army problem with characters. Boyz tend to block the pathways so he cant make the charge, since he has to reach the unit hes charging not your units in combat with the target enemy unit, so i always found it immensely difficult to get any characters in the charge with the boyz. Same goes for WAAAAAGH! Banner nobz Ghaz is a little easier (keyword, little) because at least he can technically charge first to dodge that problem due to how durable he is. But theres plenty of things out there boyz wanna charge that have some pretty mean guns so thats a limited solution.
before i found how utterly disgusting Da Jump is i was running painboyz and i always had this problem where the boyz would make a 7-8" charge and the painboy did not, so suddenly the boyz have no aura. I really wish Heroic Intervention also allowed a character to "follow a unit within 3 inches as they charge" so i can avoid the character failing the charge or ONLY the character making the charge (whichever i charge first with)
Vineheart01 wrote: problem with Ghaz is the usual assaulty-army problem with characters. Boyz tend to block the pathways so he cant make the charge, since he has to reach the unit hes charging not your units in combat with the target enemy unit, so i always found it immensely difficult to get any characters in the charge with the boyz. Same goes for WAAAAAGH! Banner nobz
Ghaz is a little easier (keyword, little) because at least he can technically charge first to dodge that problem due to how durable he is. But theres plenty of things out there boyz wanna charge that have some pretty mean guns so thats a limited solution.
before i found how utterly disgusting Da Jump is i was running painboyz and i always had this problem where the boyz would make a 7-8" charge and the painboy did not, so suddenly the boyz have no aura. I really wish Heroic Intervention also allowed a character to "follow a unit within 3 inches as they charge" so i can avoid the character failing the charge or ONLY the character making the charge (whichever i charge first with)
Why don't you just daisy chain the boyz back to within range of the buff as they charge? You might prevent one or two boyz from fighting but you're buffing the entire unit.
Also IMO you never charge the waaagh banner Nob into combat. Any opponent worth his salt with immediately target him to remove the buff from the rest of the boyz.
I ran Ghaz with 90 Goff Boyz and 30 stormboyz in a recent beer and pretzels game with a friend running a world eaters list and he went down turn 2 to Belakor, but ripped him in half as he went down with orks is never beaten.
It's the only time I've run Ghaz in 8th, and he was tasty, but sadly I never got to utilise his buffs on the mobs of Boyz surrounding him so I can't really say how effective he is.
What was useful though was the skarboyz strategem, the difference wounding on 3s makes was gratifying against the marines but I was a bit underwhelmed by the exploding 6s in combat though. In general, most of the time it made up the difference in the number of attacks to number of hits ratio, which was quite nice, but it doesn't feel like it has the same impact as DD. I suppose I was expecting more, but with the amount we roll anyway, it felt a bit of a waste.
It did help take down Belakor in one go though, generating an extra 3 attacks, which was very nice.
Problem with Ghaz is that his main bonus (bonus attack) is kinda pointless.
235-80 = 155 points over regular klaw-boss equals to 22 boyz which yield up to 67 attacks without spells. So you need to hit at least 2 full units of boyz with Ghaz aura to get equal damage, but 22 boyz also give more board control, more wounds...
He might be useful in a klan-soup lists, but regular restrictions of 3 detachments make him hard to push into the list without ruining kultures for key units. In this regard he is similiar to the gnarlmaw tree, which is very useful, but doesn’t worth a detachment.
I had another test recently with this list:
Spoiler:
Played against almost 100 genestealers with broodlord, swarmlord, flyrant, neurotrope, venomtropes and a squad of termagants. Kraken.
Hammer and Anvil, Tactical Escalation, SUPPLIES FROM ABOVE (from CA2018)
He chose sides, so I had good chances of going first, but if he seizes I am screwed, so I placed everything far at my deployment zone, 4 grot squads zoning him from moving closer to my main units.
Luckily he didn’t seized.
Turn 1:
I advanced with grots, blocking his move (well, sort of) and dajumped grots even closer on the left flank where smarmlord hid.
Shooting phase I’ve destroyed gants to get first strike and spent 7CP morkanaut, who was tall enough to spot Swarlord behind the ruin.
First shooting was lackluster, but second one destroyed Swarlord (yet he was killed by the very last dice i rolled, which i had to reroll for CP, so I was veeery nervous).
He rushed towards me, tri-pinted one squad of grots (mistake) with two genestealers’ squads and destroyed 30 grots and 30 boyz.
Turn 2:
I dajumped tri-pointed grots (rolled 1-1, had to spent cp on re-roll ), shot one GS squad with lootas and morkanaut, second one with boyz and SAGs, charged and killed broodlord and another GS squad, effectively wiping most of his army. Wartrike advanded for 23’’ preparing to give me linebreaker.
Flyrant deepstriked (deepstroke?) and tried to kill wartrike, but failed.
He tried to maneur with the remaining GS squad, but overwatch from boyz killed A LOT and his troops ended.
flandarz wrote: Chinork is decent. I heard Garg Squig isn't awful (atleast it's better than the Stompa). I don't know about anything else.
The Chinork is quite nice and has several interesting tricks up its sleeves.
- It is really fast 16" + guaranteed 8" advance. Since you measure to and from the base it is easy to hide. This gives it some 1st turn survivabilty
- If your opponent doesn't need line of sight (and be careful cause the Chinork is as flimsy as can be) you can deepstrike it for a gauranteed round of shooting
- The flight bases are large and combined with buggies it will limit your opponent's moving space quickly
- Best used as a transport-gunship it allows your tankbustas to sweep the field from left to right and engage targets easily
- A ncie set-up is to fill it up with dual-choppa nobs and park it in your opponent's face in or next to a bit of terrain. They destroy it? Well nice, now you have a 20 wounds 2+ save unit which he has to deal with
- Quite often I charge mine into enemy tanks as well. It doesn't do much on itself but since it has fly it disengages happily next turn while your opponent is has been stuck and unable to shoot its tank - All of its armament is situational. Deffguns hardly hit anything, don't invest in a Skorcha cause it makes the entire setup too expensive. The bombs sometimes work but don't count on them.
I am going to field it with 9 kustom-shoota nobs and a warboss with the Blunderbuss for a tourney in a week or two. Later this year I'll take two Chinorks, one filled up with 10 kustom-shoota nobs (for 40 S4 chaff clearing shots) and one with bustas.
Ghaz is also much harder to kill than a Klaw Boss. +1T, +2W, and a +2/4++ vs 4+. With +1 Attacks (+2 on a charge) and 3 Damage vs D3, he also hits a bit harder. That's said: he's a significant investment and he (obviously) works better with at least 1 Mob of Boys and a Banner Nob. I think if you're gonna run a Green Tide, he's a "must take". Otherwise? I'd leave him at home.
flandarz wrote: Ghaz is also much harder to kill than a Klaw Boss. +1T, +2W, and a +2/4++ vs 4+. With +1 Attacks (+2 on a charge) and 3 Damage vs D3, he also hits a bit harder. That's said: he's a significant investment and he (obviously) works better with at least 1 Mob of Boys and a Banner Nob. I think if you're gonna run a Green Tide, he's a "must take". Otherwise? I'd leave him at home.
Ghaz isn’t that much harder to kill. Most of the time he is protected by his character keyword, and dies if he’s left in the open alone.
His most notable survivability bonus is that he doesn’t die to a single failed save from a knight’s chainsword.
He can’t take killa klaw, he eats the space of almost full unit of boyz, he is awkward to put into non-goff army.
I’d take evil sunz warboss with killa klaw any day of the week. Or bad moonz warboss with 4++ or thunderbus-skorcha.
I wish GW left the megaboss option in the codex, but alas...
I don’t mean Ghaz is useless, he is cool, but compared to other faction leaders: guilliman, abaddon - he is lacking for his price.
No CP boost, very situational army-wide bonus (you need to charge first).
With S7 he could have been better against T8 vehicles (s7x2+2 from fist of gork) and 8 attacks on charge with 1-2 bonus attacks - could aim to kill a knight.
He *is* protected by his character Keyword. But he's tough, has enough Wounds, and has that 4++, meaning that (unlike the KK Boss) he can survive by himself a little better. Ex: it'll take 288 BS/WS4, S4, AP0, D1 attacks to take him down, compared to 72 for the KK boss (on average). With AP-3, S8, and D3 Damage, that turns into 24 for Ghaz and 9 for the KK. Of the two, Ghaz is gonna take a much more significant investment for your opponent to take down.
All that aside, a wise man once said: "Why not both?"
As I really don’t want to play green tides ATM, home is where he will stay. thanks guys. He really should provide 2cps if not 3 as other faction overlords do, for 235 points
The Chinork is quite nice and has several interesting tricks up its sleeves.
- It is really fast 16" + guaranteed 8" advance. Since you measure to and from the base it is easy to hide. This gives it some 1st turn survivabilty
Can you explain that? I understand that range is measured from the base, but isn't shooting LOS determined by any point on the target model being visible to the shooting model?
Also: Fists of Gork adjusts your Strength Characteristic *before* your Klaw multiplier. Meaning that, if you FoG Ghaz, he'll have an effective 16S with his Klaw anyway. Though I *do* wish he gave CP like the other Faction leaders. It would certainly make Goffs a lot more competitive.
The fact that hes Goff and not allowed to be in any army w/o busting kultures is another issue.
Goff isnt bad, but its buffing an attribute orks excel at already. It doesnt help them get the charge more (Evil Sunz), it doesnt help them survive (Bloodaxe/Deathskull), and it doesnt improve dakka before the charge (Deathskull/Freeboota/Badmoonz)
Goff things tend to murder whatever they charge but my badmoonz usually do too so....big deal?
Yeah. Goffs need something to help em out a bit. Even Skar Boyz aren't enough compared to the other options. Getting some bonus CP on Ghaz, or something? I dunno. My basic point is: if you're running Green Tide, you'll probably want some Goffs. And if you got some Goffs, you'll probably want Ghaz to buff them up.
The Chinork is quite nice and has several interesting tricks up its sleeves.
- It is really fast 16" + guaranteed 8" advance. Since you measure to and from the base it is easy to hide. This gives it some 1st turn survivabilty
Can you explain that? I understand that range is measured from the base, but isn't shooting LOS determined by any point on the target model being visible to the shooting model?
thanks,
Coh
It states in the rule that ranges and LOS are measured from the Base.
Wait...now I reread it again I realise that only counts for the passenger's shooting. :(
addnid wrote: I still get push back from my Group on the double choppa 5 attack nobz thing. I am running out of arguments... How to convince them ? Thanks !!!
Do you have the codex to show them? Just show them the Nobz datasheet wargear options section and then the Nobz weapons section on the wargear lists page (page 83). What reasoning are they using to tell you that Nobz can't take two choppas?
flandarz wrote: Ghaz is also much harder to kill than a Klaw Boss. +1T, +2W, and a +2/4++ vs 4+. With +1 Attacks (+2 on a charge) and 3 Damage vs D3, he also hits a bit harder. That's said: he's a significant investment and he (obviously) works better with at least 1 Mob of Boys and a Banner Nob. I think if you're gonna run a Green Tide, he's a "must take". Otherwise? I'd leave him at home.
Ghaz isn’t that much harder to kill. Most of the time he is protected by his character keyword, and dies if he’s left in the open alone.
His most notable survivability bonus is that he doesn’t die to a single failed save from a knight’s chainsword.
Right after the notable survivability bonus of getting a save at all. If a knight hits your warboss just once, you simply remove it from the table.
He can’t take killa klaw,
He come stock with a killa klaw. Freeing up a relic is not a downside.
he is awkward to put into non-goff army.
Almost all successful armies are running a battalion 2 weird boyz + 3x 10 gretchin, their culture makes little to no difference. You can just put Ghaz there.
I don’t mean Ghaz is useless, he is cool, but compared to other faction leaders: guilliman, abaddon - he is lacking for his price.
No CP boost, very situational army-wide bonus (you need to charge first).
I agree. Abbadon is very similar to Ghaz in just being a big beatstick, but he buffs shooting units near him and protects them from Morale. A more relevant Aura would be really nice for Ghaz.
With S7 he could have been better against T8 vehicles (s7x2+2 from fist of gork) and 8 attacks on charge with 1-2 bonus attacks - could aim to kill a knight.
With first of Gork he becomes S16. Outside of that, without stratagems neither Abbadon nor Gulliman have any chance of taking down a knight, Mortarion just barely manages to do so on average and he is 470 points.
addnid wrote: I still get push back from my Group on the double choppa 5 attack nobz thing. I am running out of arguments... How to convince them ? Thanks !!!
For one, the FAQ of one codex does not affect the other. People have tried to do that several times in every edition, it never holds.
Nobz may replace their slugga and/OR choppa with items from the wargear list, with 0 mention about dupes from the first list as it has no clause of "only 1" like the second list does for kombi weapons.
Choppas are worded "When this model attacks it makes 1 extra attack with this profile" not "when it attacks with this weapon" thus it gains +2 attacks.
GW has had 2 opportunities to FAQ it to say otherwise, instead all they said was they cant take 2 from the first list AND one from the second.
The chatter in this thread about Ghaz got me to look at him.
If I am correct this guy can put out 9 attacks with his kustom Klaw before exploding 6's hitting on a 2+ with the possibility of doing that 2 more time,(27 attacks before exploding 6's.) still excluding the exploding 6's. I'd hate to do this because it means he's slain at the end but what a glorious ending.
I recall the Goffs warlord trait was faq'd to be "better" but can't recall what was added.
At any rate to me it just looks like a matter of picking the right target and getting Ghaz in contact. With of course having the CP's to spend on stratagems and the Weird boys available to pump him up.
I'm not saying this is the best thing to do but it is a thing I might like to try at some point. Even though it shouldn't be relied on...
So what best to throw him at then is the question?
Heck he could very well wipe out 3 different units under the right conditions.
But could you imagine if it worked?
So, I just came back from my first "big" tournament , 36 players, 5 match in 2 days. My best placing ever to any tournament, 5th with 4 win and a loss for 2 points. 1750 ITC with fixed deployment and mission. Card optional as secondary. I took cards every time and maxed them twice.
Of 36 players 12 were chaos, 8 with 60 plaguebeares and sloppity. 6 Orks, 3 freeboterz. No admech, no GSC.
1st Chaos +TS 2nd Astra+IK
3rd Chaos
4th Bad moon, an old Adepticon winner (12 smashaguns )
5th Me,myself & I
my List:
2x Dakkajet maxed out
1x Wazbomb KFF 2x weirbody
1x Warboss on Bike with relic Klaw
1x SSAG
1x Mek on bike KFF,Plasma
30x shoota boyz
2x10 grots
1x Gorkanaut
3x Smasha
3x Traktor
5x Stormboyz
All freeboterz
A little recap:
Spoiler:
1st match
VS Daemons and Chaos. 2 Lord discordant, 3 Dakka (Soulgrinder?), Keeper of secrets, 20 brimstone, a lot of other character .
First tournament for this guy, really nice fellow, a bit inexperienced. I get first turn, blow a Discordant, brimstone and a soulgrinder. charge into the other discordant.
He than proceed to smite to shred the wazbomb (bad move from my side), wound another DJ a bit and kill some orks CC I blow up another soulgrinder and wound his Discordant to 1W, no CP left. I forget about points and waste a turn
He basically kill himself. He does 6 MW on his KoF with 2 Perils maxed out and kill some more orks. He s got some good cards and hold the backline, smite down a plane.
This turn i charge a wounded G-naut in the middle of the Character that are left, kill some and stay in combat. Im leading
His last turn where his goddamn Discordant (that got healed now 11 W thanks to regen and spells) is free having killed the last orks and charge in the G naut. Epic fight, G-naut goes down, explode and kill 4 caracther that were left with 1-2 W!!
last turn i mop points but miss completely surviving brimstone. only things he had left.
I than realized that we were playing a tournament,not a single match. . . I totally forgot about holding obj and securing cards. I believe i lost my 3rd place in this match.
Won 22-19
2nd Match.
vs DG. hangover annoying guy that I helped thru the first couple of turns because he had no idea where he was.
60 plaguebeares, sloppity, tree, 2 DP , 16 bloodletters, 3x3 nurglins. 3 PBC.
He starts, the grindfest starts, i roll poorly thru the game, he rolls like hes the Grandfather himself. just a slugfest. He charged my flank T2 with the BL and killed my SSAG. no idea how he made it. he was too hangover to discuss, i let him do it, was a call the judge situation, but I knew the situation looked bad already for me, i let it slide and took some revenge later on on points.
I make a terrible mistake where I advance too much and he charge and double attack with his DP of chaos and chop down 2 planes. From that point onward, it was uphill.
As suspected. nothing really left on the board beside 2 nurglins and a sloppity with 1W. I had G-naut, 5 gunz all grots and weirboys.
Irritating to say the least.
Lost 21-23
3rd Match.
Vs Chaos deamons. AGAIN. At this point I´m having wartime flashbacks, hallucination and disorientation. I basically spent a day fighting Chaos...
60 PB, 30 PH, 14BL, Ahriman, all the damn council of spam and again, 2 DP, 2x3 Nurglins, sloppity. 1 FW Dread with C Beam
1st he starts, advance. smite a bit my G-naut. nothing much kill some Grots in order to DS backline but I autopass for 2CP
1st T i do the SAME MISTAKE AGAIN WITH THE PLANES"!!!!!!!! . All to proc a +1that doesnt go thru because he saves 2!!!! brimstone. I start to bite my hands and swallow dices. I kill some PB and play defensive. My SAAG is worthless basically.
2T he flame the crap out of me, wipe the orks, eat up 2 planes and keep his ground. My G-naut is down to 4 W.
2T i had to count to 30.than to 50, than to 100 in order to not give up. I decide to play the match anyway and do my best.
I realize his WL prince is deployed too far up and i decide to punish his right flank. My shooting is bananas, finally. between moral, an angry G-naut on second bracket shooting twice a warboss and an OK SSAG I take 30 Horrors, a unit of PB, his DP warlord (Ork is NEVER beaten baby!) and almost sniper ahriman.
T3 he comes down with the BL in a really bad position, for him, not for me. He manages to kill the grots but he has not CP to attack again, so he consolidate towards my Gunz. I belive he lost the game here.
T3 i take backline with the stormboyz and charge the nurglins. kill half of the BL, but 2 comes back -.-. The other unit of PB is left with 7.
T4. Here he have really bad luck and leave my DJ with 5W, fail to kill my G-naut in CC with the BL and get wiped.
T4. It is Doomsday. We are playing for points. I kill Ahriman and get some points.
T5-T6. I have all gunz left, 2 weirdboy a Dj that is bringing death from above and a surving G-naut. He have sloppity and a Poxbringer with 1 W...
Is a draw. 22-22
I´m happy, he´s tired.
Something feels fishy.
He counts again, 22-22
Again. I cant belive it. Can I please see the scoring Sheet?
There, I won 23-21. No wait 23-22......
He keeps the scoring gak, whatever. I won.
Match 4
New day, New chaos. This time vs Chaos Knight, armiger(? 4d3 dakkabot) 30 PB, poxbringer, 1DP, 15+15 BL, 3 flamers, 3x3 nurglins.1 Tzeench herald,
My T1. 1 Dakkabot is gone, the Knight is left with 12W, flamers are gone,6PB are gone. I advance a bit and fail charge with the boyz.
He s scared of my G-naut. Good. Leave the planes to be . He Wounds the G.naut charge my orks advance with the DP and charge with the Knight into 1 of my traktor.
T2. bye bye prince vs my Warboss., Knight is gone, other small knight is gone poxbringer left with 1W, same as the other herald. my boyz are in combat. he s left with 11 PB.
BL comes down and takes down Warboss, 2 gunz and a weirbody with 1 W. 11 orks are left.
T3 i remember is a torunament, run out of combat in order to get an obj worth 3 points, wipe an unit of Bl, charge some goddam resilient nurglings backfield. get out of combat with anything else.
He charges and kill the g naut. contest midfield.
T4 tabled if not for 1 goddam nurglins that tanks like 30 stormboyz attacks, some grenade and 2MW smite!
38-12
Match 5
VS a guy I know that played only CC nids for the last 2 years. Great guy, very aggressvive playing. No BS, no cheating, just a good Player.
2 mixed dakkarant+Claw, Swarmy, 4 Zoanthrope, 3 Venomthrope, 1 Zoanthrope, Broodlord, 30 Mingants, 20+18 Genes.
Quarters deployment. He choses side. Deploy aggressive. I deploy defensive. I know this list. I played it and lost with it a million times before i started Orks.
I get 1st turn. Is a massacre. 10 +13 genestealers, a Dakkarant, 3 venomthropes. I fail Da Jump, but get Warpath. He will negate EVERYOTHERSPELL for the rest of the game....
he smites to 1W my wazbomb, charges my fronline of grots, dakkarant wipe the wazbomb, charge into grots. He spend 9 Cp in order to save the appearences. But is already too late. kill some orks but nothing much.
T2 warlord Dakkarant is Kapow! ,minigants are 5 left. all the genestealers are gone, I take some cards. Is done man.
he doesnt give up, take all the bonuses he can, objectivs a card. But the fish is fried.
T3 i offer my warboss in order to get some W on Swarmy, shoot down broodlord and 3 zoanthropes and start to max on secondaries.
T3 he kills the mek and get a card.
T4 tabled.
shaking hands.
33-16
Reflections:
I saw 2 other freeboterz list and I can see clearly what other more experienced players means, when they say that orks have go all or noithing. The warboos on bike with Klaw and that FoG are a waste in a dominantly shooting list. Same goes for the mek on bike and the stormboyz, with those points i could free up a second Battallion and use more dakka on SSAG at least a couple of more T. CP reroll is a wate 99% of the time. I dont get it. IS INSANE. Roll 1 to Dmg, ok, CP re roll. 1 again I love the list, it suits my aggressive play and a the same times it forces me to think more.
we played a couple of match with the chess clock. Damn if it helps. You focus on more important stuff and play more streamlined.
I will play this list or a variant of this for the rest of the 2019 at least. I already booked other 2 "major" tournaments.
Las thought, just because orks are not nr 1 all the time, doesnt mean anything. All the major tournament there is always some orks in Top 3 or 5 or 10. It is possible and doable to play good and have a lot of fun with an incredible, unique, funny army that by GW standard, is nothing more than cannon fodder for the Marines.
We are scary
We are green
We are orks
Goff warlord trait was "buffed" to add +1 AP when charging. So his klaw is AP-4 on the charge. Whoopie, It is technically significant since it 100% removes 3+ saves and reduces 2+ to a tshirt, but just about everything he's gonna face either doesnt have a save in the first place, common marine (which dies to his boyz just fine), or has an invul anyway.
Sidetrack question: Ambulls Fluffwise it kinda makes 0 sense to have an Ambull as orks wouldnt be smart enough to "release" one but it could potentially offer some hilarious "counts as" models, my mind immediately goes to some heavily mek'd up Stormboss (he jumps, not digs around) with a grot rigger on his shoulder to be the healing rule.
But, 70pts and a cp since you HAVE to use an aux detachment to bring it. Think it might have some uses? T6 7W with 4 S6 AP-3 D3 damaging attacks hitting on 3s with a 3+ save.
warhead01 wrote: The chatter in this thread about Ghaz got me to look at him.
If I am correct this guy can put out 9 attacks with his kustom Klaw before exploding 6's hitting on a 2+ with the possibility of doing that 2 more time,(27 attacks before exploding 6's.) still excluding the exploding 6's. I'd hate to do this because it means he's slain at the end but what a glorious ending.
I recall the Goffs warlord trait was faq'd to be "better" but can't recall what was added.
At any rate to me it just looks like a matter of picking the right target and getting Ghaz in contact. With of course having the CP's to spend on stratagems and the Weird boys available to pump him up.
I'm not saying this is the best thing to do but it is a thing I might like to try at some point. Even though it shouldn't be relied on...
So what best to throw him at then is the question?
Heck he could very well wipe out 3 different units under the right conditions.
But could you imagine if it worked?
Can't do it twice more,only once. They changed the wording of the fight again strat.
Well, you can do it a third time if you're slain during your opponent's Fight Back portion, I believe. Pretty sure Orkz iz Neva Beaten stacks with the others.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Course, you just spent 5 CP and lost Ghaz for 27 S16 AP-4 D3 attacks which hit on 2s and explode on 6s. That's 26.75 hits which wound T8 on 2s for 22.29 Wounds. Depending on the Invuln Save (3++ or 4++), you'll see 7.43 or 11.15 pass Saves, for an average of 22 or 33 damage. That's pretty hefty.
flandarz wrote: Well, you can do it a third time if you're slain during your opponent's Fight Back portion, I believe. Pretty sure Orkz iz Neva Beaten stacks with the others.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Course, you just spent 5 CP and lost Ghaz for 27 S16 AP-4 D3 attacks which hit on 2s and explode on 6s. That's 26.75 hits which wound T8 on 2s for 22.29 Wounds. Depending on the Invuln Save (3++ or 4++), you'll see 7.43 or 11.15 pass Saves, for an average of 22 or 33 damage. That's pretty hefty.
He means that "Get Stuck In, Ladz!" was changed to be only at the end of the fight phase (like all the other fight twice strats), not whenever you could choose a unit to fight or at the end (what it was originally). So the only way to fight three times would be to swing, survive the rest of the fight phase, use Get Stuck In to fight again at the same time as your opponent uses their fight twice strat (and have yours resolve first, presumably by having it be your turn so you get to choose timing on end of phase stuff), then die to their second round of fighting and use Orks Is Never Beaten to swing for the last time.
Fan67 wrote: Problem with Ghaz is that his main bonus (bonus attack) is kinda pointless.
235-80 = 155 points over regular klaw-boss equals to 22 boyz which yield up to 67 attacks without spells. So you need to hit at least 2 full units of boyz with Ghaz aura to get equal damage, but 22 boyz also give more board control, more wounds...
Those 22 extra boyz are unlikely to fit into combat though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
addnid wrote: It’s more to do with the argument that two choppas don’t give more than one attack.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But I think the last faq is pretty clear on chainswords so...
Umm the wording can't be more clear. It's extra attack with the choppa when you fight. For them to claim they don't give extra attacks they are claiming nob cannot make ANY attacks as he's not fighting...
And if that's weird for them howabout combo of big choppa and choppa for 3 S7 -1 D2 and 1 S5 -0 1 attacks
From the last 3 tourneys: i'm starting to think about taking a big shiny shoota instead of a killa klaw. Yeah, killa klaw is a nice ward against knights and other larger targets with no invul in mellee but i'm starting to think that i'm getting stuck in mellee less and less often. Especially with characters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: At least in smaller games, blunderbuss bikerboss proved to be so much more useful than a killa klaw one
Emicrania wrote: So, I just came back from my first "big" tournament , 36 players, 5 match in 2 days. My best placing ever to any tournament, 5th with 4 win and a loss for 2 points. 1750 ITC with fixed deployment and mission. Card optional as secondary. I took cards every time and maxed them twice.
Of 36 players 12 were chaos, 8 with 60 plaguebeares and sloppity. 6 Orks, 3 freeboterz. No admech, no GSC.
1st Chaos +TS 2nd Astra+IK
3rd Chaos
4th Bad moon, an old Adepticon winner (12 smashaguns )
5th Me,myself & I
my List:
2x Dakkajet maxed out
1x Wazbomb KFF 2x weirbody
1x Warboss on Bike with relic Klaw
1x SSAG
1x Mek on bike KFF,Plasma
30x shoota boyz
2x10 grots
1x Gorkanaut
3x Smasha
3x Traktor
5x Stormboyz
All freeboterz
A little recap:
Spoiler:
1st match
VS Daemons and Chaos. 2 Lord discordant, 3 Dakka (Soulgrinder?), Keeper of secrets, 20 brimstone, a lot of other character .
First tournament for this guy, really nice fellow, a bit inexperienced. I get first turn, blow a Discordant, brimstone and a soulgrinder. charge into the other discordant.
He than proceed to smite to shred the wazbomb (bad move from my side), wound another DJ a bit and kill some orks CC I blow up another soulgrinder and wound his Discordant to 1W, no CP left. I forget about points and waste a turn
He basically kill himself. He does 6 MW on his KoF with 2 Perils maxed out and kill some more orks. He s got some good cards and hold the backline, smite down a plane.
This turn i charge a wounded G-naut in the middle of the Character that are left, kill some and stay in combat. Im leading
His last turn where his goddamn Discordant (that got healed now 11 W thanks to regen and spells) is free having killed the last orks and charge in the G naut. Epic fight, G-naut goes down, explode and kill 4 caracther that were left with 1-2 W!!
last turn i mop points but miss completely surviving brimstone. only things he had left.
I than realized that we were playing a tournament,not a single match. . . I totally forgot about holding obj and securing cards. I believe i lost my 3rd place in this match.
Won 22-19
2nd Match.
vs DG. hangover annoying guy that I helped thru the first couple of turns because he had no idea where he was.
60 plaguebeares, sloppity, tree, 2 DP , 16 bloodletters, 3x3 nurglins. 3 PBC.
He starts, the grindfest starts, i roll poorly thru the game, he rolls like hes the Grandfather himself. just a slugfest. He charged my flank T2 with the BL and killed my SSAG. no idea how he made it. he was too hangover to discuss, i let him do it, was a call the judge situation, but I knew the situation looked bad already for me, i let it slide and took some revenge later on on points.
I make a terrible mistake where I advance too much and he charge and double attack with his DP of chaos and chop down 2 planes. From that point onward, it was uphill.
As suspected. nothing really left on the board beside 2 nurglins and a sloppity with 1W. I had G-naut, 5 gunz all grots and weirboys.
Irritating to say the least.
Lost 21-23
3rd Match.
Vs Chaos deamons. AGAIN. At this point I´m having wartime flashbacks, hallucination and disorientation. I basically spent a day fighting Chaos...
60 PB, 30 PH, 14BL, Ahriman, all the damn council of spam and again, 2 DP, 2x3 Nurglins, sloppity. 1 FW Dread with C Beam
1st he starts, advance. smite a bit my G-naut. nothing much kill some Grots in order to DS backline but I autopass for 2CP
1st T i do the SAME MISTAKE AGAIN WITH THE PLANES"!!!!!!!! . All to proc a +1that doesnt go thru because he saves 2!!!! brimstone. I start to bite my hands and swallow dices. I kill some PB and play defensive. My SAAG is worthless basically.
2T he flame the crap out of me, wipe the orks, eat up 2 planes and keep his ground. My G-naut is down to 4 W.
2T i had to count to 30.than to 50, than to 100 in order to not give up. I decide to play the match anyway and do my best.
I realize his WL prince is deployed too far up and i decide to punish his right flank. My shooting is bananas, finally. between moral, an angry G-naut on second bracket shooting twice a warboss and an OK SSAG I take 30 Horrors, a unit of PB, his DP warlord (Ork is NEVER beaten baby!) and almost sniper ahriman.
T3 he comes down with the BL in a really bad position, for him, not for me. He manages to kill the grots but he has not CP to attack again, so he consolidate towards my Gunz. I belive he lost the game here.
T3 i take backline with the stormboyz and charge the nurglins. kill half of the BL, but 2 comes back -.-. The other unit of PB is left with 7.
T4. Here he have really bad luck and leave my DJ with 5W, fail to kill my G-naut in CC with the BL and get wiped.
T4. It is Doomsday. We are playing for points. I kill Ahriman and get some points.
T5-T6. I have all gunz left, 2 weirdboy a Dj that is bringing death from above and a surving G-naut. He have sloppity and a Poxbringer with 1 W...
Is a draw. 22-22
I´m happy, he´s tired.
Something feels fishy.
He counts again, 22-22
Again. I cant belive it. Can I please see the scoring Sheet?
There, I won 23-21. No wait 23-22......
He keeps the scoring gak, whatever. I won.
Match 4
New day, New chaos. This time vs Chaos Knight, armiger(? 4d3 dakkabot) 30 PB, poxbringer, 1DP, 15+15 BL, 3 flamers, 3x3 nurglins.1 Tzeench herald,
My T1. 1 Dakkabot is gone, the Knight is left with 12W, flamers are gone,6PB are gone. I advance a bit and fail charge with the boyz.
He s scared of my G-naut. Good. Leave the planes to be . He Wounds the G.naut charge my orks advance with the DP and charge with the Knight into 1 of my traktor.
T2. bye bye prince vs my Warboss., Knight is gone, other small knight is gone poxbringer left with 1W, same as the other herald. my boyz are in combat. he s left with 11 PB.
BL comes down and takes down Warboss, 2 gunz and a weirbody with 1 W. 11 orks are left.
T3 i remember is a torunament, run out of combat in order to get an obj worth 3 points, wipe an unit of Bl, charge some goddam resilient nurglings backfield. get out of combat with anything else.
He charges and kill the g naut. contest midfield.
T4 tabled if not for 1 goddam nurglins that tanks like 30 stormboyz attacks, some grenade and 2MW smite!
38-12
Match 5
VS a guy I know that played only CC nids for the last 2 years. Great guy, very aggressvive playing. No BS, no cheating, just a good Player.
2 mixed dakkarant+Claw, Swarmy, 4 Zoanthrope, 3 Venomthrope, 1 Zoanthrope, Broodlord, 30 Mingants, 20+18 Genes.
Quarters deployment. He choses side. Deploy aggressive. I deploy defensive. I know this list. I played it and lost with it a million times before i started Orks.
I get 1st turn. Is a massacre. 10 +13 genestealers, a Dakkarant, 3 venomthropes. I fail Da Jump, but get Warpath. He will negate EVERYOTHERSPELL for the rest of the game....
he smites to 1W my wazbomb, charges my fronline of grots, dakkarant wipe the wazbomb, charge into grots. He spend 9 Cp in order to save the appearences. But is already too late. kill some orks but nothing much.
T2 warlord Dakkarant is Kapow! ,minigants are 5 left. all the genestealers are gone, I take some cards. Is done man.
he doesnt give up, take all the bonuses he can, objectivs a card. But the fish is fried.
T3 i offer my warboss in order to get some W on Swarmy, shoot down broodlord and 3 zoanthropes and start to max on secondaries.
T3 he kills the mek and get a card.
T4 tabled.
shaking hands.
33-16
Reflections:
I saw 2 other freeboterz list and I can see clearly what other more experienced players means, when they say that orks have go all or noithing. The warboos on bike with Klaw and that FoG are a waste in a dominantly shooting list. Same goes for the mek on bike and the stormboyz, with those points i could free up a second Battallion and use more dakka on SSAG at least a couple of more T. CP reroll is a wate 99% of the time. I dont get it. IS INSANE. Roll 1 to Dmg, ok, CP re roll. 1 again I love the list, it suits my aggressive play and a the same times it forces me to think more.
we played a couple of match with the chess clock. Damn if it helps. You focus on more important stuff and play more streamlined.
I will play this list or a variant of this for the rest of the 2019 at least. I already booked other 2 "major" tournaments.
Las thought, just because orks are not nr 1 all the time, doesnt mean anything. All the major tournament there is always some orks in Top 3 or 5 or 10. It is possible and doable to play good and have a lot of fun with an incredible, unique, funny army that by GW standard, is nothing more than cannon fodder for the Marines.
We are scary
We are green
We are orks
And orks, are NEVER beaten.
EDIT: A textwall into a spoiler
Cheers for the report dude. Useful stuff.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
koooaei wrote: From the last 3 tourneys: i'm starting to think about taking a big shiny shoota instead of a killa klaw. Yeah, killa klaw is a nice ward against knights and other larger targets with no invul in mellee but i'm starting to think that i'm getting stuck in mellee less and less often. Especially with characters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: At least in smaller games, blunderbuss bikerboss proved to be so much more useful than a killa klaw one
Ork characters rarely have invul saves so if your opponent commits attacking them there is a good chance they'll die. Its fairly unorky but I've found best success with holding back the killa klaw until theres an opening against a vehicle or enemy character and then throwing him in. Its the boyz job to clear the chaff.
I had a discussion with another guy on here about the merits of the blunderbuss. Depending on who I'm playing I'll give the killa klaw to my biker boss (against mek/knight lists or the blunderbus to my waaagh banner nob who I'll be trying to keep out of combat anyway(against horde or Tau gunline where getting my boss into combat is tough.) A biker boss with normal Klaw can still do damage its just less reliable and the waagh banner without blunderbus still fufills a roll of buffing nearby units. If you weren't Bad moons you could give the waaagh banner nob the big shiny shoota but if its shooting you're after you'll probably be taking the SSAG so the shiny shoota is costing you at least 1 CP. Dunno if its worth it.
koooaei wrote: From the last 3 tourneys: i'm starting to think about taking a big shiny shoota instead of a killa klaw. Yeah, killa klaw is a nice ward against knights and other larger targets with no invul in mellee but i'm starting to think that i'm getting stuck in mellee less and less often. Especially with characters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: At least in smaller games, blunderbuss bikerboss proved to be so much more useful than a killa klaw one
Ork characters rarely have invul saves so if your opponent commits attacking them there is a good chance they'll die. Its fairly unorky but I've found best success with holding back the killa klaw until theres an opening against a vehicle or enemy character and then throwing him in. Its the boyz job to clear the chaff.
I had a discussion with another guy on here about the merits of the blunderbuss. Depending on who I'm playing I'll give the killa klaw to my biker boss (against mek/knight lists or the blunderbus to my waaagh banner nob who I'll be trying to keep out of combat anyway(against horde or Tau gunline where getting my boss into combat is tough.) A biker boss with normal Klaw can still do damage its just less reliable and the waagh banner without blunderbus still fufills a roll of buffing nearby units. If you weren't Bad moons you could give the waaagh banner nob the big shiny shoota but if its shooting you're after you'll probably be taking the SSAG so the shiny shoota is costing you at least 1 CP. Dunno if its worth it.
Ssag is out of question. Best relic we currently have. It's in fact so good paired with a shoot again strategem from dreadmob,, it singlehandedly changed our playstyle. I'm talking about the second relic. On paper, killa klaw is beastly and indeed it can be game-changing vs some armies like monster mash nids or knights. But it happens more and more often that a klaw boss is not seeing mellee where he'd need that klaw. Most of the time he's either stomping his own boyz and grots or chopping chaff/light tanks that are allready half-dead after ssag and rokkits.
Thus the thought about what other relik to pick if you ain't a bad moon with blunderbuss.
flandarz wrote: Well, you can do it a third time if you're slain during your opponent's Fight Back portion, I believe. Pretty sure Orkz iz Neva Beaten stacks with the others.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Course, you just spent 5 CP and lost Ghaz for 27 S16 AP-4 D3 attacks which hit on 2s and explode on 6s. That's 26.75 hits which wound T8 on 2s for 22.29 Wounds. Depending on the Invuln Save (3++ or 4++), you'll see 7.43 or 11.15 pass Saves, for an average of 22 or 33 damage. That's pretty hefty.
He means that "Get Stuck In, Ladz!" was changed to be only at the end of the fight phase (like all the other fight twice strats), not whenever you could choose a unit to fight or at the end (what it was originally). So the only way to fight three times would be to swing, survive the rest of the fight phase, use Get Stuck In to fight again at the same time as your opponent uses their fight twice strat (and have yours resolve first, presumably by having it be your turn so you get to choose timing on end of phase stuff), then die to their second round of fighting and use Orks Is Never Beaten to swing for the last time.
Not something that's going to come up regularly.
I hadn't kept up with the faq's because I haven't played more than 1 game after 6 months away from the hobby.
I downloaded them this morning.
The "Ghaz idea" is kinda ok and I agree it won't come up that often. I also think I tend to use my characters differently than most other players here. Over the years my Power Klaw warboss, and I look at Ghaz as basically the same thing, was used to crack open really tough targets and once upon a time that was a Land Raider or a SH tank. So another unit could finish the job if the boss didn't one shot it.) Those where my preferred targets as I equated the Ork power Klaw to the SM Lascannon. I just have to get it into contact and swing. I hadn't taken INV saves into account because I don't have a running catalog of just who has them and my tendency for targeting vehicles. Still Ghaz fighting twice, more or less safely is good enough and it may be that he fights twice on my turn then 3 times on the opposing players turn. (If that's happening then ...What's really going on in that game!!! )
I haven't a clue just what other players thing their Bosses are suppose to do I have always found a Boss really has no business doing much of anything on it's own, that seems to get them perished.
As far as the CP's go, I guess it sounds like a lot to use on just one model but at this point I don't really plan my list around where I will spend my CP's so much as trying to bring as many as I can.
I had put my Orks as side after my last tournament and the let down that was "Orktober." I am hoping to get excited about pushing Orks across the table again.
The concern I have for running Ghazkhull is how to get him into the enemy lines. He is stuck with the Goff kultur and to get the most out of him you don't want him hanging out in a vehicle.
So the question becomes how do you get him to where he needs to go.
If he walks he probably won't see combat until turn three.
In a battlewagon you can get him there sooner but the second you put him in a battlewagon the wagon is going to be the first thing your opponent targets and wagons are often hard to hide.
If you use a tellyporta he might not make the charge.
You can draw fire from a battlewagon transporting Ghaz by bringing nauts, bonebreakers with nobz/MANz, buggies and/or planes along. The downside is that pretty much everything in that list is overcosted by ~10-20% so it's not really something you would want to bring to a tournament.
russellmoo wrote: The concern I have for running Ghazkhull is how to get him into the enemy lines. He is stuck with the Goff kultur and to get the most out of him you don't want him hanging out in a vehicle.
So the question becomes how do you get him to where he needs to go.
If he walks he probably won't see combat until turn three.
In a battlewagon you can get him there sooner but the second you put him in a battlewagon the wagon is going to be the first thing your opponent targets and wagons are often hard to hide.
If you use a tellyporta he might not make the charge.
Thoughts?
Have you considered a Trukk with 10 grots. Smaller and easier to hide.
Or Teleport the Battlewagon and boost it in.Still only T3.
I don't think he's competitive but if you find something that works then keep us informed
If you're not running a Greentide, then Ghaz isn't gonna fit well in your list (unless you wanna suicide run him after a Da Jump, like the Killa Klaw Boss). If you are, then you're gonna be foot slogging with the Boyz anyway. But you DO have some options.
1) Tellyport in a group of Boyz on T2, then Da Jump Ghaz up to join them.
2) Ghaz allows himself and the Boyz around him to Advance and Charge, so Advance up the board for ~8-9" movement per turn. Should be in a position to charge by T2, as long as your opponent isn't hiding in the back of his deployment zone.
3) Put him in a Transport and drive him up to a Da Jump point. Still won't see action until T2 (unless your opponent pops the Transport before then).
4) EGT back a group of damaged Boyz, then Da Jump Ghaz to the front lines. Again, this will be on T2.
Not saying Greentide is competitive right now. But it can work, if you (and your opponent) got the patience for it.
odd tactics questionish thing... but I am doing a narrative event the third war for armageddon.
working on building the list and models. looking to make it as easy to use/ as little models as possible. I am in charge of 15-20k in points depending on attendees. (basically i am the orks) no rule of 3 applying or limits on what I can field at all
models to work with
6 stompas magnetized for varios gear
6 garg squigoths
12 squiggoths
6 meka-dreads
9 battlewagons
9 trukks
27 big guns
3-400 boyz
90 meganobz
75 lootas
25 burnas
3x each of the new buggies
9 big meks w/ sag 5 big mneks w/ kff 10 magnetized planes that cna be run however.
9 killa kans
6 wierd boyz
3 warbosses on bikes
100ish nobz with various equipment
every named character
70 gretchin
60 ork bikers
30 nob bikers
5 nobz w/ waaagh banner
3 painboyz
3 painboyz on bike
30 konadoes
6 meks
7 runherds
9 deffcoptas
27 grot tanks
30 stormboyz
6 gorkanaughts/morkanaughts (magnetized for either)
15 flash gitz
7 deffdreads
I can really fill it out however i need. I am not against geting more models to make it work/make it easier to pilot such a big army in a full day event. (literally throw price out the window on suggestions, if i need 6 more stompas I will get them )
currently leaning towards using the stompas filling them with meganobz and a kffig mek each for the inv. use my jets, and fill gargantual squigoths with lootas. field all the grot tanks and mek guns with SAG meks, fill battlewagons with nobs and leave most the footslogging things/boys behind to avoid moving them, even on trays its difficult because of the amoutn of terrain usually used.
I would add in the gorkanauts and some morkanauts, and put some megaknobz or nobz inside each one.
You are probably also going to be okay running the kommandos and stormboyz as you can pop them into the board later in the game without worrying about them getting blasted to peices before they get to do anything.
For getting Ghazzie into combat on turn 2, I might suggest combining a deffkilla wartrike with a solid transport (battlewagon, or bigtrakk for 14" move), so move 14", advance 3-4", then charge (thanks to the trike) for a turn 1 movement of 14+3D6", average 24.5". With the rerolls to charge and spending a CP to reroll a 1 on advancing, you can probably count on 26" of movement, so models 27" away are in the threat zone. or use the 3D6" charge strat to really fly across the board. the wagon should be ready to squit ghaz out on turn 2, or the opponents turn 1 if they crack the trakk, to go stomp stuff in their deployment zone in your turn 2. Park it near a KFF on turn 1 if you're not confident about getting the first turn.
I have an upcoming game against Dark Angels, and as I've never encountered them before, I was wondering if anyone here had some general advice for me? I know I need to watch out for the Smash Captain, but any "must have" units I should be aware of?
My list is two Freebooterz Battalions, with 1 SSAG, 2 Index Mekz with KFFs, 1 Weirdboy with Da Jump, Kaptin Badrukk, 6x10 Grots, 9 Flashgitz, 6 Mek Gunz (all Smashaz), 2 Dakkajets, a Gork and a MekaDread, and a Trukk (I think).
Automatically Appended Next Post: To clarify, I don't want to tailor my list to counter his list. I just wanna make sure I'm "competitive" so I don't get slaughtered.
I have an upcoming game against Dark Angels, and as I've never encountered them before, I was wondering if anyone here had some general advice for me? I know I need to watch out for the Smash Captain, but any "must have" units I should be aware of?
My list is two Freebooterz Battalions, with 1 SSAG, 2 Index Mekz with KFFs, 1 Weirdboy with Da Jump, Kaptin Badrukk, 6x10 Grots, 9 Flashgitz, 6 Mek Gunz (all Smashaz), 2 Dakkajets, a Gork and a MekaDread, and a Trukk (I think).
Automatically Appended Next Post: To clarify, I don't want to tailor my list to counter his list. I just wanna make sure I'm "competitive" so I don't get slaughtered.
Thoughts on this list? I love both flash gitz and big robots so seeing as freebootas with gorkamorkanauts is seeing some love right now I was thinking of trying something like this out for a semi-competive list.
Spoiler:
Orks, 2000 points
Spearhead Detachment, Dread Waaagh!, Freebootas
+HQ+
Warlord, Big Mek with shokk attack gun, SSAG relic, big killa boss.
+Heavy Support+
Gorkanaut
Gorkanaut
Morkanaut with KFF
Spearhead Detachment, Freebootas
+HQ+
Kaptin Badrukk
+Heavy Support+
5 Flash Gitz
5 Flash Gitz with ammo runt
5 Flash Gitz with ammo runt
Battalion Detachment, Freebootas
+HQ+
Weirdboy, Da Jump
Deffkilla Wartrike
+Troops+
30 shoota boyz with boss nob and 3 tankbusta bombs
10 Gretchen
10 Gretchen
Basically the flash gitz ride in the nauts, one squad with Badrukk who ride in a gork so the enemy has to choose between focusing on the Mork to take out invul or going after the one with the Kaptin. Grots hang back around the SSAG, shoota mob gets da jumped up by the weirdboy to clear chaff. Nauts move up and shoot and second turn the gitz hop out in the midfield where they should be in range of most things with their guns. Because they are actually on the table, they can actually make solid use of Badrukk's reroll 1s aura unlike when they ride around in trukks or Battlewagons.
I'm unsure about keeping the deffkilla wartrike. He gives the nauts the ability to advance and charge and potentially with a good advance roll and the ramming speed stratagem one of the gorks can pull off a first turn charge, but I'm unsure how often I would want the nauts to advance and charge seeing as I want their shooting too. But I also want the 4th HQ for the extra detachment and CP so I'm not sure what to replace him with that would synergize well. Klaw boss on bike maybe? I also thought about just having a bike Mek with KFF who could repair the nauts as well as give them the flexibility and redundancy to keep that 5++ invul should a gork want to split off away from the Mork. It could also hang out and cover the flash gitz once they are out and keep them durable.
Obviously this list will likely struggle against more competitive lists that are built to one-shot a castellan, but I feel that it is pretty durable with a lot of threats and good shooting and close combat. What do y'all think?
flandarz wrote: Yeah. 2k. All I really know is that he's running Dark Angels and he wants to try out a couple of units.
The most important part when facing DA is having a way to quickly handle helblasters. With native re-rolling ones, near immunity to morale and +1 damage stratagem they are the most powerful asset of any Dark Angel army. Lootas work best as they can ignore a potential -1 to hit from a darkshroud with more dakka and outrange helblasters. AP-1 is not that much of an issue since DA helblaster tend to be protected by Azrael's 4++. Buggies(KBB, SJD, scrap jet) and flash gits also work well, but if they get too close they might just get wiped out.
In general, don't expect any vehicles to survive within 15" of a unit of helblasters (they one-shot a naut on average). Also, don't try to charge them with a klaw boss or deff dread, there is decent chance of them just killing them in overwatch.
The biggest issue with your list, that I see, is that 10 CP is probably too little. Codex Orkz are very CP hungry. Even Freebootaz. You're also pretty vulnerable to AT, as once your opponent pops your Nauts, you've lost half your points. Like you said, most lists have a way to deal with Super Heavies in a Turn or 2, and with 3 Heavies, I think you'll find they may not last past Turn 3, unless you throw them in a Tellyporta. With only 10 CP, though, you won't have enough to run your Kustom Ammo on the SSAG if you do.
Thanks Jidmah. I'll watch out for that and try to stay in the 24" range as long as possible. Fortunately, most of my list operates just fine at long range.
I have an upcoming game against Dark Angels, and as I've never encountered them before, I was wondering if anyone here had some general advice for me? I know I need to watch out for the Smash Captain, but any "must have" units I should be aware of?
My list is two Freebooterz Battalions, with 1 SSAG, 2 Index Mekz with KFFs, 1 Weirdboy with Da Jump, Kaptin Badrukk, 6x10 Grots, 9 Flashgitz, 6 Mek Gunz (all Smashaz), 2 Dakkajets, a Gork and a MekaDread, and a Trukk (I think).
Automatically Appended Next Post: To clarify, I don't want to tailor my list to counter his list. I just wanna make sure I'm "competitive" so I don't get slaughtered.
I play a list very similar, Ben jureks list TBH,Is a great list, extremely flexible and can punch hard. Just remove asap anything that can hurt your planes. They and the gunz has always been my MVPs
I haven't given it a test run yet, but I'm a bit worries about my infantry presence. My plan is to Da Jump Grots onto Objectives, but even in Cover they are extremely fragile. I'm hoping that with all the AT (Mek Gunz, SSAG, and Dread) and all the Anti-Infantry (Gork, Gitz, and Dakkajets), I'll be able to cripple the enemy before I have to worry about that. The biggest issue I see is that (like always) Flyers and Super Heavies are gonna be hard to take out. Even with focused attention from the Gunz, SSAG, and Dread, a properly defended Castellan is gonna be a tough nut to crack. The Flyers are maybe less of an issue, since I have a lot of BS4 units on my list, but they could also be annoying.
flandarz wrote: The biggest issue with your list, that I see, is that 10 CP is probably too little. Codex Orkz are very CP hungry. Even Freebootaz. You're also pretty vulnerable to AT, as once your opponent pops your Nauts, you've lost half your points. Like you said, most lists have a way to deal with Super Heavies in a Turn or 2, and with 3 Heavies, I think you'll find they may not last past Turn 3, unless you throw them in a Tellyporta. With only 10 CP, though, you won't have enough to run your Kustom Ammo on the SSAG if you do.
Thanks Jidmah. I'll watch out for that and try to stay in the 24" range as long as possible. Fortunately, most of my list operates just fine at long range.
Hmmm, good points on CP. I am being somewhat inefficient with my detachment. Perhaps something more like this?
Spoiler:
Orks, 2000pts
Battalion Detachment, Dread Waaagh!, Freebootas
+HQ+
SSAG, warlord, big killa boss
Weirdboy
+Troops+
25 shoota boyz
10 grots
10 grots
+Heavy Support+
Morkanaut
Gorkanaut
Gorkanaut
Battalion Detachment, Freebootas
+HQ+
Kaptin Badrukk
Big Mek with KFF
+Troops+
10 grots
10 grots
10 grots
+Heavy Support+
5 Flash Gitz
5 Flash Gitz with ammo runt
5 Flash Gitz with ammo runt
In terms of anti tank issues, I think that is something that I will just have to deal with. I'm pretty married to the whole "triple orkanauts stuffed with flash gitz" thing, and I'm not aiming to crush top tables at tournaments with this list (although it bears a lot of resemblence to the Freebootas list that placed at a tourney on the first post, just trade the planes for not-as-good flash gitz), I just want to try and build the strongest list I can while sticking to that original concept.
The new list has 13 CP (minus 1 for dread Waaagh detachment) so that means I could theoretically use kustom ammo 6 turns in a row, or do kustom ammo paired with more dakka for the first 3 turns, or just the first 2 and save the rest for critical re rolls or ramming speed or the like.
Also, while this list runs a foot mek with KFF to provide more flexible forcefield protection and the ability to repair damaged nauts, I could also drop a boy and run a second non-relic SAG for more backfield anti-tank. Which sounds better, more defensive flexibility, or more (somewhat unreliable) offensive output? I'd appreciate any and all feedback!
flandarz wrote: You might wanna consider the SAG, yeah. You got plenty of Anti-Infantry in your list, but your AT boils down to the SSAG and the Mork.
I will probably try out both and see which I like more in practice. Though Badrukk himself can also threaten tanks with da rippa, I can see tanks being a problem. But while the flash gits arent amazing for killing vehicles, they arent terrible at it either. Wounding on a 5+ sucks, but volume of fire can really carry them through. All 3 squads with the Kaptin's bonus shooting at their normal BS (so if they stayed still without Freebootas bonus or if they moved with freebootas bonus) will put 14-15 wounds on your standard T7/8 3+ save vehicle, and if they stay still AND get the Freebootas bonus that goes up to 19 or 20. That's why I like them; there is very little that LIKES being shot at by a snazzgun. They even occupy that sweet spot where weedy stuff like guardsmen get wounded on 2s and no save, and the D2 in this case makes any 6+++ saves on chaff irrelevant.
Yeah, I like Gitz too. I got a squad of 9 in my list, backed by Badrukk. Give the SAG a try, if you want. You're only dropping 1 Boy and the KFF Mek for him, and if you space correctly around the Mork, you won't need him. Assuming you put the KFF on the Mork.
I put mine in a Trukk. It's got enough movement to get them to a good position in one go, is surprisingly tough to take out for its point cost, and can be Looted for 3+ Gitz without you feeling like you just flushed points down the toilet like you would for a Gork. Plus: they can fire from it AND because Modifiers transfer to the occupants (Open-Topped), if someone procs the +1 to hit, the Trukk could Move and they'll still hit on 4s.
Like my 1500 points Evil Sunz list, figured I'd ask about what big changes one would make to make it a little better. Without exacts it's essentially
Deffkilla Wartrike
Warboss
Weird Boy
19 Boys (to go in Battlewagon with Warboss)
As many extra boys I can fit into another squad
10 Grots
1 of every buggie
6 Wartrikes
Battlewagon
___
As mentioned, I'll either throw around the spare points into more boyz or a few Battlewagon guns. Really wanted to add 10 stormboyz but I never seem to have the spare points to do so.
I get the buggies outside 1-2 are not great (specially the stupid squiglauncher...) but heck, own 'em all. Got to go Mad Max.
Emicrania wrote: I really wanna love the gitz but I have hard time seeing how to use them. Do you dj? DS? Hide em in Nauts and pop em up T2?
I will see how bringing them up in the nauts and jumping out t2 works. The way I see it, I want to run lots of small squads to get a better chance for gun crazy showoffs and to get more kaptins for increased accuracy. I also want them on foot so they can benefit from Badrukks aura. I also want them to sit in the midfield so they can mitigate their range issues without having to move. I also like nauts, so it makes good sense to protect them in the nauts until I can dump them in the midfield and hopefully they dont have to move the whole game and can just gun things down, maybe the Mork hangs back to give them an invul. I feel they both synergize well, but I also feel that tellyporting a big squad of gitz in somewhere where they will have good firing lanes and you can pop moar dakka on a big squad would also work nicely.
Keramory wrote: Like my 1500 points Evil Sunz list, figured I'd ask about what big changes one would make to make it a little better. Without exacts it's essentially
Deffkilla Wartrike
Warboss
Weird Boy
19 Boys (to go in Battlewagon with Warboss)
As many extra boys I can fit into another squad
10 Grots
1 of every buggie
6 Wartrikes
Battlewagon
___
As mentioned, I'll either throw around the spare points into more boyz or a few Battlewagon guns. Really wanted to add 10 stormboyz but I never seem to have the spare points to do so.
I get the buggies outside 1-2 are not great (specially the stupid squiglauncher...) but heck, own 'em all. Got to go Mad Max.
Buggies are severely overcosted, battlewagon eats too much into the points, it is generally better to deepstrike one of the squad and dajump another one.
BUT if you are eager to try buggies no matter what, stick to the more efficient ones: shockjump dragsta (it is by far closest to being semi-viable than any other buggie, if only it had been made sniper I would even include one in my army), scrapjet and boosta-blasta.
Rukkatruck and Boomdakka are complete joke.
On the other hand flyer-heavy lists show signs of good results. Top1 ork list in local team tournament (128 players, 16 teams) had 4 flyers. And couple pages away there was listed a chineese roster with srapjets and flyers.
Many armies are not prepared to deal with both flyers and boyz pressure simultaneously.
Also buggies benefit greatly from deathskullz kultur - both because of zog off rule and re-rolls (especially useful on shockjump).
Keramory wrote: Like my 1500 points Evil Sunz list, figured I'd ask about what big changes one would make to make it a little better. Without exacts it's essentially
Deffkilla Wartrike
Warboss
Weird Boy
19 Boys (to go in Battlewagon with Warboss)
As many extra boys I can fit into another squad
10 Grots
1 of every buggie
6 Wartrikes
Battlewagon
___
As mentioned, I'll either throw around the spare points into more boyz or a few Battlewagon guns. Really wanted to add 10 stormboyz but I never seem to have the spare points to do so.
I get the buggies outside 1-2 are not great (specially the stupid squiglauncher...) but heck, own 'em all. Got to go Mad Max.
Buggies are severely overcosted, battlewagon eats too much into the points, it is generally better to deepstrike one of the squad and dajump another one.
BUT if you are eager to try buggies no matter what, stick to the more efficient ones: shockjump dragsta (it is by far closest to being semi-viable than any other buggie, if only it had been made sniper I would even include one in my army), scrapjet and boosta-blasta.
Rukkatruck and Boomdakka are complete joke.
On the other hand flyer-heavy lists show signs of good results. Top1 ork list in local team tournament (128 players, 16 teams) had 4 flyers. And couple pages away there was listed a chineese roster with srapjets and flyers.
Many armies are not prepared to deal with both flyers and boyz pressure simultaneously.
Also buggies benefit greatly from deathskullz kultur - both because of zog off rule and re-rolls (especially useful on shockjump).
Just a slight nitpick, deathskullz are definitely useful on the buggies, but zog off AFAIK only works on infantry units, not vehicles, so they wouldn't have obsec.
Yeah-yeah, my mistake.
Never used them myself, but now that I reread the codex i see it.
Nevertheless it is much more useful than Evil Sunz for shooty vehicles.
So it might worth moving buggies and weirdboy into the separate outrider detachment.
Keramory wrote: Like my 1500 points Evil Sunz list, figured I'd ask about what big changes one would make to make it a little better. Without exacts it's essentially
Deffkilla Wartrike
Warboss
Weird Boy
19 Boys (to go in Battlewagon with Warboss)
As many extra boys I can fit into another squad
10 Grots
1 of every buggie
6 Wartrikes
Battlewagon
___
As mentioned, I'll either throw around the spare points into more boyz or a few Battlewagon guns. Really wanted to add 10 stormboyz but I never seem to have the spare points to do so.
I get the buggies outside 1-2 are not great (specially the stupid squiglauncher...) but heck, own 'em all. Got to go Mad Max.
Buggies are severely overcosted, battlewagon eats too much into the points, it is generally better to deepstrike one of the squad and dajump another one.
BUT if you are eager to try buggies no matter what, stick to the more efficient ones: shockjump dragsta (it is by far closest to being semi-viable than any other buggie, if only it had been made sniper I would even include one in my army), scrapjet and boosta-blasta.
Rukkatruck and Boomdakka are complete joke.
On the other hand flyer-heavy lists show signs of good results. Top1 ork list in local team tournament (128 players, 16 teams) had 4 flyers. And couple pages away there was listed a chineese roster with srapjets and flyers.
Many armies are not prepared to deal with both flyers and boyz pressure simultaneously.
Also buggies benefit greatly from deathskullz kultur - both because of zog off rule and re-rolls (especially useful on shockjump).
Just a slight nitpick, deathskullz are definitely useful on the buggies, but zog off AFAIK only works on infantry units, not vehicles, so they wouldn't have obsec.
Played a game on Tuesday evening, combo of Maelstrom and Eternal War with 1 secondary from ITC (I picked Big game hunter he picked reaper (I run 191 models))in prep for a tournament this weekend. Dawn of war set upMy list was
Boyz [11 PL, 196pts]: 2x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob [7pts]: Choppa, Choppa
. 27x Ork Boy W/ Shoota [189pts]
++ Total: [104 PL, 2,000pts, -2CP] ++
I played against an all Bad Moon army containing (from memory) 2 battlewagons covered in gunz and a gun wagon, 4 trukks (with boyz in each) 3 bikes, 2x2 deffkoptas, 4 Nob bikers, 2x weirdboyz Foot slogging warboss, deffkilla wartrike, tank bustas and burna boyz.
His entire army was mounted so he had significantly less drops than me. I knew he was going to get the +1 to roll off so I put my 3 koptas in reserve and dropped my grots first so I was able to put my heavy hitting units (SSAG and lootas) in advantageous positions.
I don't know if anyone else does it but I've a preset formation for my slugga and shoota boyz so that all 4 squads (77 boyz in total) fit within the KFF 9" along with two weirdboyz who are therefor within 10" of 30 orks. The "formation" comes in at 11" x 18" including all the movement trays. I find it really cuts down on my deployment time which is necessity in tournaments.
I deployed the rest of my army as far back as possible assuming second turn but then got first turn. I do love it when I go first.
T1
I knew he was going to come towards me so my movement phase was limited to the battlewagon containing the MANZ and kommandos moving up the left flank. I mobbed up a 29 boy squad and a 10 boy squad
In the Phychic phase I cast warpath and then da jump on the 38 boy squad pushing them on the right flank.
The lootas and SSAG's range meant that they had plenty of targets. The SSAG totalled a battlewagon and the lootas blew up a trukk which in turn wiped out his squad of 3 bikes.
I charged the 39 boyz into 2 of the remaining trukks blowing them up. I didn't do it but do people know for certain that you can't use the fight again strat to target the now dismounted occupants of the exploded trukks.
His T1
He split his force left and right to deal with the large mob of boyz and battlewagon respectively
He shot all his tankbustas, burnas and 2 battlewagons into my battle wagon but left it with 1 W. He whittled down the 39 boyz to a more manageable number.
He assaulted the battlewagon with his last trukk and the battlewagon containing his warboss, tankbustas and burnas and barely succeeded in destroying it. He charged 3 trukk boy squads, a deffkilla wartrike and 3 nob bikers into the remains of the large boy squad. I was a bit hasty in agreeing to remove them by assuming they were all dead as in hindsight I should have interrupted with them and could have done some damage but you live and learn.
T2
I moved my lootas up to get close to his Nob bikers and deffkilla wartrike. I pushed my warboss on bike up the right flank in the hope of targeting his deffkilla wartrike. The nob with Waaagh banner also had the blunderbus relic so I moved him into range of the Nob bikers too. I also mobbed up the 10 boyz with the other 28 shoota boy squad. I also brought on my 3 x 1 deffkoptas
Psychic phase consisted of warpath and da jump on the 38 boyz. I dropped them close to the Nobz and deffkilla wartrike but also one of the 2x deffkoptas
Shooting phase saw the 38 shoota boyz kill 1 deffkopta and the SSAG whiff completely twice but the blunderbus relic nob and lootas killed the 3 nob bikers. This meant that the deffkilla wartrike was now the closest model to the the lootas who lit him up. This meant my warboss on bike no longer had any hard targets but he managed to make a 11" charge into some trukk boyz killing 2. This meant my right flank was pretty secure but the now dismounted MANZ blew up his last trukk but failed to take care of his battlewagon meaning they were in trouble.
His T2
He dismounted his battlewagon and moved some boyz to hold an objective on his left.
He unloaded everything into the MANZ and then charged them resulting in them being destroyed.
T3
My lootas wiped out two squads of trukk boyz by firing twice and I pulled back from my left flank. SSAG destroyed his battelwagon
His T3
He dominated my left flank but it contained only one objective markers was worth VP.
At this stage all his transports were destroyed and he wasn't going to be able to make it towards the centre of the board or my right flank which contained 3 scoring objectives worth 3 VP.
We both got first strike, I got slay the warlord and we both would have gotten linebreaker. We were pretty even on tactical objectives by the end but with 3 scoring objectives to his 1 he wasn't going to be able to claw it back.
It was a good game but I made some big mistakes. I should have deployed my SSAG better and ignored the 3 trukks and focused on the gunwagon and the battlewagon containing his warboss. Also I missed the opportunity to da jump the shoota boyz and then surround his battlewagon with boss. With fight twice I definitely would have been able to surround it and destroy it killing everyone inside. The shoota boyz did kill a deffkopta in turn allowing me to shoot at the wartrike but I had the warboss on bike ready to take him.
I know people aren't big fans of the battlewagons but this is the list I'm bringing to a tournament this weekend that has an unbeaten tau gunline list. I've lost 40 boyz to overwatch from this gunline so The plan is teleport the wagon and the boost it in the tau lines. The increased toughness, wounds and armour will hopefully allow it to make contact, eating the overwatch for my boyz. I'll let ya'll know how I fair.
Great BR, remember the KFF range is 9", not 10".
I would try to focus on blow up transport and charge the occupant after that, whenever is it possible.
Vs Tau the best way is always to outgun them, but maybe the BW is good enough, I don't know.
Remeber to blow up all the drone asap with shoota boyz
✌️
Cheers dude. The 10” refers to the weird boyz being near 30 boyz to give them the +3 to casts. They were still within the 9” off bubble.
Ya blowing up the battle wagon and charging the occupants was the original plan. I had hoped the SSAG would repeat its successful first turn but it rolled woefully. It’s classic ork reliability. Next time I’ll use the boyz as backup.
I have to 15 lootas, 1 mekgun,3 mega blaster deffkoptas and SSAG as counter firepower and I plan to use the shootas to clear chaff like you said but I don’t think that’s enough to outshoot the tau. For the greater good means I can’t charge the tau block with boyz. The battle wagon is there purely to act as a can opener.
CaptainO wrote: Cheers dude. The 10” refers to the weird boyz being near 30 boyz to give them the +3 to casts. They were still within the 9” off bubble.
Ya blowing up the battle wagon and charging the occupants was the original plan. I had hoped the SSAG would repeat its successful first turn but it rolled woefully. It’s classic ork reliability. Next time I’ll use the boyz as backup.
I have to 15 lootas, 1 mekgun,3 mega blaster deffkoptas and SSAG as counter firepower and I plan to use the shootas to clear chaff like you said but I don’t think that’s enough to outshoot the tau. For the greater good means I can’t charge the tau block with boyz. The battle wagon is there purely to act as a can opener.
Thanks for the BR !
May I ask why the meganobz were bad moon and not evil sunz ? You plan to da jump them right ? You want a few more shoota hits at the expense of a +1 to charge ?
Also you should have your weird boy as bad moon, and the Kff big mek as evil sunz so he can move faster to ensure boyz get propa coverage from kff, no ?
Don’t get why you hav 4 squads of boyz and not just 3 either. I am curious as you seem to know your stuff
CaptainO wrote: Cheers dude. The 10” refers to the weird boyz being near 30 boyz to give them the +3 to casts. They were still within the 9” off bubble.
Ya blowing up the battle wagon and charging the occupants was the original plan. I had hoped the SSAG would repeat its successful first turn but it rolled woefully. It’s classic ork reliability. Next time I’ll use the boyz as backup.
I have to 15 lootas, 1 mekgun,3 mega blaster deffkoptas and SSAG as counter firepower and I plan to use the shootas to clear chaff like you said but I don’t think that’s enough to outshoot the tau. For the greater good means I can’t charge the tau block with boyz. The battle wagon is there purely to act as a can opener.
Thanks for the BR !
May I ask why the meganobz were bad moon and not evil sunz ? You plan to da jump them right ? You want a few more shoota hits at the expense of a +1 to charge ?
Also you should have your weird boy as bad moon, and the Kff big mek as evil sunz so he can move faster to ensure boyz get propa coverage from kff, no ?
Don’t get why you hav 4 squads of boyz and not just 3 either. I am curious as you seem to know your stuff
All good points, I don't get why the weirdboy should be bad moons. I ask because I often miss some nuance, like I discovered yesterday, after 6 months of playing only orks that warphead let you cast 2 spells...
All good points, I don't get why the weirdboy should be bad moons. I ask because I often miss some nuance, like I discovered yesterday, after 6 months of playing only orks that warphead let you cast 2 spells...
I think he is more referring to making the kff mek evil sunz, and just swapping which detachment each of the hqs is in. The weirdboy gets no benefit at all from being badmoon as far as I can tell
Played against orks with a scrapjet, shockjump dragsta and a rotor cannon buggy. There were also like 8 mek gunz, ssag mek and others.
I wasrunning mellee crons and didn't have ranged at worth talking about. And scrapjet felt almost worth it's point tag. If i get it right, it has 2d3+1 rokkit and 18 bigshoota shots. Also it can finish off a model or two in mellee.
Also, funnilly enough, shockjump dragsta dealt 10 wounds to a plane turn 1 instantly paying off. While a ssag mek managed to deal just 2 wounds across the game eating up 4 cp in the process.
It'd be interesting to see if scrapjet holds up vs armies with decent ranged at.
CaptainO wrote: Cheers dude. The 10” refers to the weird boyz being near 30 boyz to give them the +3 to casts. They were still within the 9” off bubble.
Ya blowing up the battle wagon and charging the occupants was the original plan. I had hoped the SSAG would repeat its successful first turn but it rolled woefully. It’s classic ork reliability. Next time I’ll use the boyz as backup.
I have to 15 lootas, 1 mekgun,3 mega blaster deffkoptas and SSAG as counter firepower and I plan to use the shootas to clear chaff like you said but I don’t think that’s enough to outshoot the tau. For the greater good means I can’t charge the tau block with boyz. The battle wagon is there purely to act as a can opener.
Thanks for the BR !
May I ask why the meganobz were bad moon and not evil sunz ? You plan to da jump them right ? You want a few more shoota hits at the expense of a +1 to charge ?
Also you should have your weird boy as bad moon, and the Kff big mek as evil sunz so he can move faster to ensure boyz get propa coverage from kff, no ?
Don’t get why you hav 4 squads of boyz and not just 3 either. I am curious as you seem to know your stuff
There is method to the madness but that in no way means the method is perfect. I played the same list in a 3 game tournament this weekend where I came second so I'll try and throw up some rough battle reports during the week.
I made the MANZ bad moonz mostly in order to fill out the brigade requirements. I had the option of da jumping them and relying on a 9" rather than a 8" charge was a gamble. I start games with 20 CP and had burnt them all by t3 in each game this weekend so the brigade was a must. Making the MANZ bad moonz also allowed them to be loaded into the battlewagon (which itself filled out a heavy choice). After this weekend I don't know if I'd take MANZ to be honest. Reroll 1s on the kustom shootas wasn't too bad.
The KFF was used to provide a 5++ if/when I went second. Making the KFF Bad Moonz gave me the option of putting him in the battlewagon if the table set up allowed me to put my boyz blob out of line of sight. An Evil sunz KFF would have been able to run faster to keep up with the boyz (that hadn't been da jumped) however If the boyz are sprinting forward T1, its in order to make a charge. If they're about to do that they'll have spread out so activating the 18" KFF strat would be the only way to ensure all the boyz are still under. This removes the need for the extra 2" from moving and shooting. Honestly the weirdboy could be changed for the KFF and it wouldn't be too detrimental.
The four squads of boyz allowed me to mob up in two turns. Mob Up+ Warpath+ da jump+ declare literally everything within 12" + Fight again strat is really powerful. A second 10 man squad is also useful if I can just run my mobbed up squad at the enemy normally and I don't want to commit my second large blob of boyz. Against nurglings who are holding an objective 30 boyz is overkill. 10 slugga boyz will steal any objective from them. cause a reasonable amount of wounds but not kill them completely, allowing me to wrap and not get shot in the next turn.
Solid reasons man, congrats on getting second place !
I hear you on manz, have like 15 Manz (11 new models and 4 old lead ones) and the more I play them the more I think they really are not that great. I am going to a tourney soon with a mob of 8 and am quite sad that the time to change the lists has run out (it ended a few hours ago).
Much too many points for what they do. If gorkanaut and morkanauuts went down in points the yes manz would be perfect for providing infantery along the fat boys which is relatively safe from ap 0weapons
To me, MANz are the ultimate Objective holders. Especially if it's in cover. But if you wanna lay some hurt on people, you're probably better off looking elsewhere.
Had a good game of 40K this weekend. Ran a dual battalion with freebootaz kultre and the Dread mob detachment.
2 Gorkanaughts and a Morkanaught made up the bulk of the list, backed up with a pair of scrapjets, a dragsta and a full unit of mek gunz, throw in a couple KFF meks and a Shokka Mek then grots to fill out troops.
My opponent took a list heavy on Obliterators and Havocs with some marine squads and characters to support and choke up lanes. and a pair of Heliverns. He was using the Devastation Battery and with Slannesh for extra firepower.
My plan was to use the mek guns and or buggies to trigger the Freebootaz trait then unload with whichever Naught was in a better position using Kustom Ammo and More Dakka to try and take out decent chunks of the enemy. Sadly he got first turn and pasted the Mek guns and one of the scrapjets in quick order. Damn Obliterators are scary if they roll those stats well (cough SupaShokka cough) Then he accidentally used the counterfire straegem wrong, killing another one of my buggies after I moved (He can only use it if I go first.) Afterwards things started to swing my way, the Deffstorm Megashoota's are no joke when hitting on 4s and generating shots on 5s too.
It was a pretty crowded table terrain wise, maybe 8 or so buildings and we were using the ITC rules. All in all I was pretty happy with the list, and have more respect for Obliterators.
I was hoping for the Mek guns and scrapjets to live a little longer but by the end of the game both the Gorkanaughts were alive and well, wandering around and killing anything they drew line of sight to. The only potential issue was one or two turns where I managed to fluff killing small units to trigger the Kulture for the Naughts, which makes me wonder if Bad Moons would be more effective, allowing me to get those weaker but still useful re-rolls of 1 regardless of if the enemy has smaller units to start the carnage with.
cody.d. wrote: Had a good game of 40K this weekend. Ran a dual battalion with freebootaz kultre and the Dread mob detachment.
2 Gorkanaughts and a Morkanaught made up the bulk of the list, backed up with a pair of scrapjets, a dragsta and a full unit of mek gunz, throw in a couple KFF meks and a Shokka Mek then grots to fill out troops.
My opponent took a list heavy on Obliterators and Havocs with some marine squads and characters to support and choke up lanes. and a pair of Heliverns. He was using the Devastation Battery and with Slannesh for extra firepower.
My plan was to use the mek guns and or buggies to trigger the Freebootaz trait then unload with whichever Naught was in a better position using Kustom Ammo and More Dakka to try and take out decent chunks of the enemy. Sadly he got first turn and pasted the Mek guns and one of the scrapjets in quick order. Damn Obliterators are scary if they roll those stats well (cough SupaShokka cough) Then he accidentally used the counterfire straegem wrong, killing another one of my buggies after I moved (He can only use it if I go first.) Afterwards things started to swing my way, the Deffstorm Megashoota's are no joke when hitting on 4s and generating shots on 5s too.
It was a pretty crowded table terrain wise, maybe 8 or so buildings and we were using the ITC rules. All in all I was pretty happy with the list, and have more respect for Obliterators.
I was hoping for the Mek guns and scrapjets to live a little longer but by the end of the game both the Gorkanaughts were alive and well, wandering around and killing anything they drew line of sight to. The only potential issue was one or two turns where I managed to fluff killing small units to trigger the Kulture for the Naughts, which makes me wonder if Bad Moons would be more effective, allowing me to get those weaker but still useful re-rolls of 1 regardless of if the enemy has smaller units to start the carnage with.
Does dakka dakka dakka trigger on 5s with freeboota trait? I understand it adds one to hit rolls but does DDD just need a 6 or a natural 6?
Otherwise nice report, very useful considering I plan to run a triple naut list like this myself. How do you think you would have done if your opponent had targetted the nauts instead of the mek guns and scrapjets?
Sadly Dakka Dakka is unmodified 6. Unless you use More Dakka to make it a 5 instead. Damn if it triggered on a 4 that would be insane!
As for what would have happened if he wiped out my naughts? A I'd be very sad, B I suppose I still would have had a decent amount of firepower, but probably not the board presence to push up the field and cause havoc. I probably would have funneled the CP into the SupaShokka mek and hoped RNJesus was on my side, he has the big killa trait but never got to fire at vehicles, just nuke a few infantry to trigger the Kulture. Plus, even at 1 wound the Naughts get to keep their main strength, their shooting, and the meks Hovering around can help keep them alive a turn or two longer.
koooaei wrote: Played against orks with a scrapjet, shockjump dragsta and a rotor cannon buggy. There were also like 8 mek gunz, ssag mek and others.
I wasrunning mellee crons and didn't have ranged at worth talking about. And scrapjet felt almost worth it's point tag. If i get it right, it has 2d3+1 rokkit and 18 bigshoota shots. Also it can finish off a model or two in mellee.
Also, funnilly enough, shockjump dragsta dealt 10 wounds to a plane turn 1 instantly paying off. While a ssag mek managed to deal just 2 wounds across the game eating up 4 cp in the process.
It'd be interesting to see if scrapjet holds up vs armies with decent ranged at.
I have fielded the Scrapjets just once but quite liked it. Next weekend I' play a tourney and take two of them.
addnid wrote: Solid reasons man, congrats on getting second place !
I hear you on manz, have like 15 Manz (11 new models and 4 old lead ones) and the more I play them the more I think they really are not that great. I am going to a tourney soon with a mob of 8 and am quite sad that the time to change the lists has run out (it ended a few hours ago).
Much too many points for what they do. If gorkanaut and morkanauuts went down in points the yes manz would be perfect for providing infantery along the fat boys which is relatively safe from ap 0weapons
Learning from my mistakes I'd try and get them into the centre of the board ASAP and just accept that they're going to die. The only thing worse than watching them die is seeing them survive the entire game due to being avoided. If your opponent knows his stuff he'll make targeting your weirdboy priority no.1 and your transport is going to be one of the first things that are taken out.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
flandarz wrote: To me, MANz are the ultimate Objective holders. Especially if it's in cover. But if you wanna lay some hurt on people, you're probably better off looking elsewhere.
100%, They benefit from ITC cover rules. They're so costly that if thats ALL they do they're not making their points back.
If I was to put MANZ on a central objective I'd try and have a large blob of boyz near them too so they can benefit from their leadership.
Yep it’s what I did yesterday against ad mech. They managed to charge 2*3 chickens with Spears that my opponent used to screen off my boys in case I da jumped 30 of them. They kill 2 and a half, then got shot down but they did draw fire which would have otherwise finished off my lootas (ad mech cruches grots with so much ease that a grot shield is not much if a shield at all ). So not bad but not great either.
Problem is that I don’t think most armoured stuff in ork codex is any good. I see people here are using gork /morkanauts but in my meta, these or battlewagons or scrapjets will just die and not do much. So much heavy hitting infantry can just go up in buildings and not care about these things assaulting them.
So my Manz are just about the only thing with an armour in nearly all my lists...
Now if only scrapjets (I have 4) went down in points... I tried the four scrapjets I have Saturday against nids, they failed until on one shouted a flyrant léviathan fleet with god mode rolls (5 Kanon hits and wounds, then flyrant failed all 5 invuls and died on the spot lol).
Honestly 110 points for these things is way too much IMHO.
I guess Manz may attract lascanon shots which would otherwise go on mek gunz (no comp ork list should go without minimum 6 mek gunz I think we can all agree), have any of you guys saved mek gunz this way ? Putting Manz in enemy’s face to draw fire on them and save the mek gunz ?
The thing with Gorks and Morks is that you wanna put them in a Tellyporta, to avoid those "they died and did nothing" scenarios. Better to wait til T2 to use them than for them to be wiped in T1. Focus on taking out your opponent's AT, then bring them in when they stand a better chance of surviving.
I’m considering changing my bad moon brigade to a freebootas one. Has anyone ever used the freeboota relic. Its the one that auto passes morale for all freebootas for a turn. It would require I spend the 3cp rather than 1cp to take 3 relics (killa kale and SSAG are auto takes at this stage in my lists). I run 6 x10 grots who evaporate incredibly quickly either as a result of being shot or used as grot shields. In itc kill one and kills more are huge. For the same cost as a normal morale auto pass strat you can take and use the relic to pass all freeboota units instead of one. This means that for my opponent to kill a unit he’s going to have to put a lot more fire power into a squad of grots as he can’t rely on their crappy leadership.
Currently this is theory hammer but I’m keen to give it a shot.
You’re not wrong. Orks are in a very good place for morale it’s the MSU of grots, kommandos and flashgits that are the concern. As I said the relic effectively costs the same as the auto pass strat so if you find yourself using the auto pass stratit in multiple games and you’re taking freebootas it’s no harm taking the relic (I don’t think any of the other relics are worth 2CP) The auto pass strat could be used on a different clan detachment in conjunction with the relic. I think itc tournaments is where it will do best where you could use it to deny kill more (or even kill 1 if you’re really lucky). Forcing your opponent to increase their firepower into grots means less shooting aimed at other units.
If you have on sitting around a regular old warboss can do the duty. Sure you take a couple of mortal wounds for it but especially with grots it will keep that one or two models around to irritate the enemy and siphon off their firepower.
I am about to become a new Ork Warboss once I am done painting my Slaanesh Daemons and I was just looking for some things to keep in mind as I build my army!
I have a very specific theme in mind, which is a Mad Max (vehicles/bikes) style army. I love all the new buggies, the war bikes, trike, etc, and definitely plan on only playing Evil Sunz. So no green tide for me, I am not sure the big mek stuff like gorkanaughts and killer kanz fit thematically into an Evil Sunz army?
My main thought is a lot of the new buggies and warbikes, shoota boyz in trukks and Grotz in the back as my "war pups" to just hold backline objectives.
So even though I am a filthy casual and plan on making a themed list... I would appreciate any wisdom/tips&hints/additional war crys/etc.
Additionally, I apologize if this has been covered extensively already. I did not have the time to scroll through 106 pages of content/discussion. Hopefully I can be forgiven for that.
Considering the Gorkanaut is usually shown as Evil Sunz in official pictures i'd be hard pressed to say it isnt thematic. Theyre still pretty fast models, just not Shokkjump Dragsta fast.
A lot of those models you listed are subpar, gorks nonwithstanding, but if you are a casual player theyre still fine. I still use my bikers and most of the buggies quite a lot, but i dont play tournaments.
Just avoid the Snazzwagon/Squigbuggy....those two are beyond horrible even as a casual.
Vineheart01 wrote: Considering the Gorkanaut is usually shown as Evil Sunz in official pictures i'd be hard pressed to say it isnt thematic. Theyre still pretty fast models, just not Shokkjump Dragsta fast.
A lot of those models you listed are subpar, gorks nonwithstanding, but if you are a casual player theyre still fine. I still use my bikers and most of the buggies quite a lot, but i dont play tournaments.
Just avoid the Snazzwagon/Squigbuggy....those two are beyond horrible even as a casual.
I play Mono Slaanesh so I am used to subpar lol (Though our new stuff is pretty rad). I have already picked up two of the Snazzwagons.... couldn't help it with the little grot strapped to the front. I am planning on this being a more casual army so I am not too concerned. Sad to hear the Squigbuggy is also not good.
I did not know the Gorkanaut is usually shown as Evil Sunz! That's awesome, I'll feel free to put that on my list then.
Are the flyers good? Would Flyers or stuff like the Bonecrushas be more Evil Sunz? Are there any good combos for all of this?
My suggestion would be to skip the Buggies and bring Bonebreakers and Battlewagons. Still plenty fast and you can put some solid units into them for more Dakka and to pop out after they get popped. Also, be aware that Gretchin are pretty much required if you want enough CP to use your Stratagems.
Other problem with buggies is they actually dont gain much from evil sunz, theyre already pretty fast and are more shooty than assaulty so they actually are better deathskullz/badmoonz But, Scrapjets atleast cause mortals on the charge.
Dakkajets are alright and wazboms are awesome. Other two kinda suck, i dont even wanna experiment with them they look so bad. But, again, shooty not assaulty so not really a wise pick for evilsunz. Actually i think evilsunz would hurt them with the +1 move technically making them move 21" min instead of 20 lol.
Vineheart01 wrote: Other problem with buggies is they actually dont gain much from evil sunz, theyre already pretty fast and are more shooty than assaulty so they actually are better deathskullz/badmoonz
But, Scrapjets atleast cause mortals on the charge.
Dakkajets are alright and wazboms are awesome. Other two kinda suck, i dont even wanna experiment with them they look so bad. But, again, shooty not assaulty so not really a wise pick for evilsunz. Actually i think evilsunz would hurt them with the +1 move technically making them move 21" min instead of 20 lol.
Burna bomber is great. It's just too hard to sqeeze into the army right now.
Excellent to push enemy from the corner position, good against elite infantry squads, awkward to deal with, blocks movement (a bit harder after FAQ, but still usable).
I tried it several times and it always did something useful, but it is not as gamechanging as other units.
Also +1" move doesn't affect your minimal distance required to travel, so it will be still 20", but you maximum movement is increased by 1" (I find it strange that aircrafts are not speed freaks, btw).
Vineheart01 wrote: Other problem with buggies is they actually dont gain much from evil sunz, theyre already pretty fast and are more shooty than assaulty so they actually are better deathskullz/badmoonz
But, Scrapjets atleast cause mortals on the charge.
Dakkajets are alright and wazboms are awesome. Other two kinda suck, i dont even wanna experiment with them they look so bad. But, again, shooty not assaulty so not really a wise pick for evilsunz. Actually i think evilsunz would hurt them with the +1 move technically making them move 21" min instead of 20 lol.
Don't forget that evil sunz also removes the penalty for advancing/firing assault weapons. Pretty useless on the jets because you'll almost never advance but can be handy for the buggies.
I went to a local tournament last month, 1750pts, 3 rounds, CA18 missions. It was my first time playing competiviely so I went in with no expectations. I ran a double battalion Freebootas list. General tactics was to get use the planes to proc the +1 to hit, then shoot everything else!:
List:
I won't go into too much detail on each game, will focus more on the mistakes which cost me:
Game1 - Beachhead
Spoiler:
Genestealer cults with a AM auxilliary (mortars + baneblade). He got the first turn, whittled the boyz down to just the Nob and left the battlewagon with Gitz in with 1 wound. My turn i resurrected the boyz and jumped them into the middle obj, got the FB buff by killing a squad of 10 guardsman. Killed a couple of the light vehicles. Things looking good. Limbered up the SAG and rolled snake eyes for strength.... thanks to BKB managed to take 4 wounds off the baneblade. Decided to double shoot him and rolled...snake eyes again for str... great. (another 5 wounds off - it could have been so much more). Managed to rack up a lead in points for the middle middle obj, but from that point on my inexperience took over. My inital screening fell apart and i let the kelemorph DS close to my flashgitz, over a couple of turns he wiped them out with his D2 guns. Abberrants DS near my lootas and grots weren't pushed out enough so they could get in, SAG had proceed to roll a 3 on str next time it shot then got charged by a broodlord. Planes were ignored. Once he'd cleared the boyz in the middle, he had two turns where he scored all three obj (total of 12 pts over two turns)
End 9-17
Game 2 - Strategic Gamble
Spoiler:
Craftworld eldar, alaitoc / ulthwe mix. lots of guardians, avengers and wraithguard, couple of grav tanks.
Slowest game of the three, only managed 3 turns, low scoring as well. Tried to get assassinate on a warlock thinking just the one dakkajet would be enough, but he used a strat to give it -1 to hit, so it was left with 1 wound. Didnt managed to get the proc this turn. He didn't really move out his side of the table and didn't do particularly much dmg to me, but i wasn't agressive enough either. Long story short, i managed to get priority orders recieved + a card to kill stuff. SSAG again was rolling under avereage and took 3 turns to kill the fire prism, managed to kill a couple of untis turn 3 which netted my 5 VP as my warlord had killed something. Linebreaker tied me the game.
End 8-8
Game 3 - Vital Intelligence
Spoiler:
Imperial Soup. Dark Angels speeders/planes, Loyal 32, Gallant. I got choice of going first, was advantage to go second as points scored at end of battleround, so i did that. Didn't help me. His two planes flew over my lootas into a small gap backfield and MW bombed 11 of them, then hurricane boltered the boyz and the weirdboy nearby. Darkshroud and two character landspeeders sat on the middle obj, almost managed to dislodge them, His scouts and guards held the backfield and meant i couldnt jump the boyz anywhere. Pinned in my own half, I was slowly whittled down and like game 1, ended up with 2 turns of him capping all the objs, giving him 12 pts in the last two turns.
End 6-19
Final thoughts
-While my list could put out some hurt, it was simply not durable enough. Explains why Ben Jureks list is doing well as its about as tough as orks can get.
-A large portion simply did not pull their weight. The bikes were meant to cap obj, but didn't really do anything. Sadly though I love the Flash Gitz, they did not justify their price tag ((360pts with the BW) and died too easily
-Don't rely on the SSAG. Sadly he rolled under average for me, which didn't help things.
-Learn other armies and their tricks better, but this comes with time and experience
I'm going to another tournament start of september, its a mono codex 2K event, no index, FW or Vigillus. I'm planning to fall back to the boyz, triple bat, target saturate with bodies and really try and just swamp the obj. Can this list be any better with codex only options?
ArmchairArbiter wrote: So no green tide for me, I am not sure the big mek stuff like gorkanaughts and killer kanz fit thematically into an Evil Sunz army?
Hell even having a stompa as Evil Sunz would be fluffy, take them as the Evil Sun Rising ladz from the novel of the same name. A loveable little stompa crew
Don't forget that evil sunz also removes the penalty for advancing/firing assault weapons. Pretty useless on the jets because you'll almost never advance but can be handy for the buggies.
And if you have the defftrike boss you can assault after charging, slam several units of scrapjets into the enemy. Considering they are armed with a powerfist they could actually mop up units damaged by your shooting.
ArmchairArbiter wrote:So no green tide for me, I am not sure the big mek stuff like gorkanaughts and killer kanz fit thematically into an Evil Sunz army?
In general, most clans use all ork units, obviously excluding named characters - though Thrakka has lead multiple klans into comat, reflected by his aura not being limited to GOFF.
My main thought is a lot of the new buggies and warbikes, shoota boyz in trukks and Grotz in the back as my "war pups" to just hold backline objectives.
You might want to skip on the trukkboy part. Outside of deffskulls double-rokkit shenanigans they have no place in current ork lists. Lists like you are trying to build either use nothing but gretchin, or have one or two units of 30 boyz to jump or tellyport in where needed. In general every ork army should aim for at least 6 units of troops to get those dearly needed CP.
So even though I am a filthy casual and plan on making a themed list... I would appreciate any wisdom/tips&hints/additional war crys/etc.
Orks are a very unforgiving army - just by not bringing lootas and mek guns you are dropping yourself to casual level.
Additionally, I apologize if this has been covered extensively already. I did not have the time to scroll through 106 pages of content/discussion. Hopefully I can be forgiven for that.
While the first post of this thread is no longer up to date (might change that when bored), it sill gives you a good idea of what units are good and which are not.
ArmchairArbiter wrote:I play Mono Slaanesh so I am used to subpar lol (Though our new stuff is pretty rad). I have already picked up two of the Snazzwagons.... couldn't help it with the little grot strapped to the front. I am planning on this being a more casual army so I am not too concerned. Sad to hear the Squigbuggy is also not good.
The buggy army is already at casual level. Gimping yourself more will just result in games where you are being blown off the board. Ork are not an army that takes getting shot well, so the main strategies for orks are either riddling everything that's dangerous with bullets and then krump the rest or just bring too many wounds to the table for our opponents to handle. Buggies are in the first boat, so bringing snazzwagons or squig buggies will leave you with an army that does not have enough wounds to whether shooting and not enough firepower to take out dangerous targets.
I also have a snazzwagon because it looks awesome - just use it with the datasheet of the kustom boosta blasta, it's pretty much doing the same thing just better (burna bombs => burna exhausts, mek speshul => rivet gun)
Are the flyers good? Would Flyers or stuff like the Bonecrushas be more Evil Sunz? Are there any good combos for all of this?
All fliers besides the blitza bommer see plenty play. The kind of army you are looking to field would probably benefit heavily from a wazzbom blastajet, as it can provide your army with a KFF for the first two turns.
Bonekrushas work well as transports for nobz, but they are not as durable as you might think they are as they lose a lot of wounds to secondary weapons like heavy bolters, stubbers, autocannons and the like.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, also news from the competitive front:
Amiable Bright Kelowna GT was won by an Ork player! No surprises in his list, but I will be adding his list to the first post anyways.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess I skipped one week - two weeks ago two more orks placed first in tournaments, with two more player placing fourth. One trend is dakkajets and wazzbomms replacing mek guns, as well as storm boyz being back in force.
Post-Castellan meta seems to be good for us despite losing the "ork castellan".
ArmchairArbiter wrote:So no green tide for me, I am not sure the big mek stuff like gorkanaughts and killer kanz fit thematically into an Evil Sunz army?
In general, most clans use all ork units, obviously excluding named characters - though Thrakka has lead multiple klans into comat, reflected by his aura not being limited to GOFF.
My main thought is a lot of the new buggies and warbikes, shoota boyz in trukks and Grotz in the back as my "war pups" to just hold backline objectives.
You might want to skip on the trukkboy part. Outside of deffskulls double-rokkit shenanigans they have no place in current ork lists. Lists like you are trying to build either use nothing but gretchin, or have one or two units of 30 boyz to jump or tellyport in where needed. In general every ork army should aim for at least 6 units of troops to get those dearly needed CP.
So even though I am a filthy casual and plan on making a themed list... I would appreciate any wisdom/tips&hints/additional war crys/etc.
Orks are a very unforgiving army - just by not bringing lootas and mek guns you are dropping yourself to casual level.
Additionally, I apologize if this has been covered extensively already. I did not have the time to scroll through 106 pages of content/discussion. Hopefully I can be forgiven for that.
While the first post of this thread is no longer up to date (might change that when bored), it sill gives you a good idea of what units are good and which are not.
ArmchairArbiter wrote:I play Mono Slaanesh so I am used to subpar lol (Though our new stuff is pretty rad). I have already picked up two of the Snazzwagons.... couldn't help it with the little grot strapped to the front. I am planning on this being a more casual army so I am not too concerned. Sad to hear the Squigbuggy is also not good.
The buggy army is already at casual level. Gimping yourself more will just result in games where you are being blown off the board. Ork are not an army that takes getting shot well, so the main strategies for orks are either riddling everything that's dangerous with bullets and then krump the rest or just bring too many wounds to the table for our opponents to handle. Buggies are in the first boat, so bringing snazzwagons or squig buggies will leave you with an army that does not have enough wounds to whether shooting and not enough firepower to take out dangerous targets.
I also have a snazzwagon because it looks awesome - just use it with the datasheet of the kustom boosta blasta, it's pretty much doing the same thing just better (burna bombs => burna exhausts, mek speshul => rivet gun)
Are the flyers good? Would Flyers or stuff like the Bonecrushas be more Evil Sunz? Are there any good combos for all of this?
All fliers besides the blitza bommer see plenty play. The kind of army you are looking to field would probably benefit heavily from a wazzbom blastajet, as it can provide your army with a KFF for the first two turns.
Bonekrushas work well as transports for nobz, but they are not as durable as you might think they are as they lose a lot of wounds to secondary weapons like heavy bolters, stubbers, autocannons and the like.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, also news from the competitive front:
Amiable Bright Kelowna GT was won by an Ork player! No surprises in his list, but I will be adding his list to the first post anyways.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess I skipped one week - two weeks ago two more orks placed first in tournaments, with two more player placing fourth. One trend is dakkajets and wazzbomms replacing mek guns, as well as storm boyz being back in force.
Post-Castellan meta seems to be good for us despite losing the "ork castellan".
The first link was me coming 5th place@Lincon!!! My first major GT, Ben Jurek List. Great experience!
I will play a double battalion freebooterz in September , the goal is to come too 3.
SSAG warlord Big Killa Boss+grot
Mek KFF+ grot+ Banner relic (awesome findind thanks to this 3d!!!)
Weirboy x 2
30 shoota boyz
10 Choppa boyz
10 grots x 4
3 Smashaguns + 3 Traktor
Gorkanaut
Morkanaut KFF Dakkajet x 2
Wazbomb KFF
This list pump out 200+ dakka and have a full kff to start, I never lost a game if I went 1st but the first time I played it. Lost by very small margins when I went 2nd. An Ork player managed to shoot down 1 and half plane and a gorkanaut in a turn last week but still lost to 1 points after I let him finish, he was 45 minutes overtime...
One question though, I got a bit confused by the latest FAQS, jumping a SSAG out of combat does not count as moving, but just jumping it result as move?! Is that correct?
Emicrania wrote: The first link was me coming 5th place@Lincon!!! My first major GT, Ben Jurek List. Great experience!
Congratulations on that!
One question though, I got a bit confused by the latest FAQS, jumping a SSAG out of combat does not count as moving, but just jumping it result as move?! Is that correct?
It does not count as falling back. So you can shoot because you have not fallen back, but you still get -1 to hit because you moved.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I updated the first post's rainbow table to better reflect what people are using at tournaments and what gets discussed in this thread here. Also to start a fight because you gits are being too friendly for proppa orks!
Emicrania wrote: The first link was me coming 5th place@Lincon!!! My first major GT, Ben Jurek List. Great experience!
Congratulations on that!
One question though, I got a bit confused by the latest FAQS, jumping a SSAG out of combat does not count as moving, but just jumping it result as move?! Is that correct?
It does not count as falling back. So you can shoot because you have not fallen back, but you still get -1 to hit because you moved.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I updated the first post's rainbow table to better reflect what people are using at tournaments and what gets discussed in this thread here. Also to start a fight because you gits are being too friendly for proppa orks!
Thanks Jid, you are pillar of this community
Automatically Appended Next Post: One question more: can a Gorkanaut (or any other BIG mf) attack units on second floor?
RAW you measure distance from the hull, if you have no base and in the charge section we find this wording:
The
first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy
model from one of the target units
Nowhere it says the base must be within 1. I reckon would be the same on a hill, the fat dude can get in range, but the base is too big to make him fit and we would use wobbling model rule.
Is that correct or am I dreaming ?
Measurements are done base-to-base unless you have no base, in which case you measure from the hull. As G/Morkanauts have a base they're unable to attack anything that is vertically farther than 1" from its base. It really sucks. Imperial Knights have a stratagem that lets them attack things a bit higher up,l bit as far as I know that's the only exception.
Yup thats one of the in my opinion few major flops in 8th core rules.
Only infantry/swarm can go up levels in ruins and its all base-to-base so even if you are TOWERING over the 5" tall platform dudes are on, you cant swing at them because you cant be up there.
Really hurts nids and is rather annoying for most others.
Yeah, what Duke said. A gorkanaut can't attack a model on a ruin because it's not within 1" of the base, but you can run them over with a deffrolla because the battlewagon has no base and thus you measure to the roof/turret.
It's right up there with heavy flamers blowing planes out of the sky.
Levski wrote: I went to a local tournament last month, 1750pts, 3 rounds, CA18 missions. It was my first time playing competiviely so I went in with no expectations. I ran a double battalion Freebootas list. General tactics was to get use the planes to proc the +1 to hit, then shoot everything else!:
List:
I won't go into too much detail on each game, will focus more on the mistakes which cost me:
Game1 - Beachhead
Spoiler:
Genestealer cults with a AM auxilliary (mortars + baneblade). He got the first turn, whittled the boyz down to just the Nob and left the battlewagon with Gitz in with 1 wound. My turn i resurrected the boyz and jumped them into the middle obj, got the FB buff by killing a squad of 10 guardsman. Killed a couple of the light vehicles. Things looking good. Limbered up the SAG and rolled snake eyes for strength.... thanks to BKB managed to take 4 wounds off the baneblade. Decided to double shoot him and rolled...snake eyes again for str... great. (another 5 wounds off - it could have been so much more). Managed to rack up a lead in points for the middle middle obj, but from that point on my inexperience took over. My inital screening fell apart and i let the kelemorph DS close to my flashgitz, over a couple of turns he wiped them out with his D2 guns. Abberrants DS near my lootas and grots weren't pushed out enough so they could get in, SAG had proceed to roll a 3 on str next time it shot then got charged by a broodlord. Planes were ignored. Once he'd cleared the boyz in the middle, he had two turns where he scored all three obj (total of 12 pts over two turns)
End 9-17
Game 2 - Strategic Gamble
Spoiler:
Craftworld eldar, alaitoc / ulthwe mix. lots of guardians, avengers and wraithguard, couple of grav tanks.
Slowest game of the three, only managed 3 turns, low scoring as well. Tried to get assassinate on a warlock thinking just the one dakkajet would be enough, but he used a strat to give it -1 to hit, so it was left with 1 wound. Didnt managed to get the proc this turn. He didn't really move out his side of the table and didn't do particularly much dmg to me, but i wasn't agressive enough either. Long story short, i managed to get priority orders recieved + a card to kill stuff. SSAG again was rolling under avereage and took 3 turns to kill the fire prism, managed to kill a couple of untis turn 3 which netted my 5 VP as my warlord had killed something. Linebreaker tied me the game.
End 8-8
Game 3 - Vital Intelligence
Spoiler:
Imperial Soup. Dark Angels speeders/planes, Loyal 32, Gallant. I got choice of going first, was advantage to go second as points scored at end of battleround, so i did that. Didn't help me. His two planes flew over my lootas into a small gap backfield and MW bombed 11 of them, then hurricane boltered the boyz and the weirdboy nearby. Darkshroud and two character landspeeders sat on the middle obj, almost managed to dislodge them, His scouts and guards held the backfield and meant i couldnt jump the boyz anywhere. Pinned in my own half, I was slowly whittled down and like game 1, ended up with 2 turns of him capping all the objs, giving him 12 pts in the last two turns.
End 6-19
Final thoughts
-While my list could put out some hurt, it was simply not durable enough. Explains why Ben Jureks list is doing well as its about as tough as orks can get.
-A large portion simply did not pull their weight. The bikes were meant to cap obj, but didn't really do anything. Sadly though I love the Flash Gitz, they did not justify their price tag ((360pts with the BW) and died too easily
-Don't rely on the SSAG. Sadly he rolled under average for me, which didn't help things.
-Learn other armies and their tricks better, but this comes with time and experience
I'm going to another tournament start of september, its a mono codex 2K event, no index, FW or Vigillus. I'm planning to fall back to the boyz, triple bat, target saturate with bodies and really try and just swamp the obj. Can this list be any better with codex only options?
Vineheart01 wrote: Yup thats one of the in my opinion few major flops in 8th core rules.
Only infantry/swarm can go up levels in ruins and its all base-to-base so even if you are TOWERING over the 5" tall platform dudes are on, you cant swing at them because you cant be up there.
Really hurts nids and is rather annoying for most others.
If you asked me whether I'd find the game more balanced if both shooting and melee were totally abstracted and only the base mattered (i.e., you'd have walkers hiding behind low walls because their base was totally obscured and also models not being able to attack units up in ruins because they can't get their base close enough)
or if I'd find the game more balanced if both shooting and melee were totally "True LOS/True As Modeled" - a model is engaged if any part of the model within 1", a model can be seen if any part of the model can be seen...
I think the first scenario would result in a more balanced wargame, honestly. "I'm losin' mah immersion!!!" is the worst argument to be made from a balance sense. True LOS causes so many problems abstracted LOS would solve.
you could give models a "Height stat" that determines how high they can reach up from their base to melee something, and also how high a terrain feature must be for them to be out of LOS behind it.
I'm entering a tournament towards the end of the year, limited to 500 points and 1 detachment and I'm playing about with some ork lists and I noticed that battlescribe allowed me to take a Big Mek on warbike with KFF and a SSAG.
The KFF replaces the slugga, and the SSAG is a relic. I don't have a copy of the Vigilus book to hand, so is this legal?
I was thinking of running it with 4 buggies of various types as deathskulls and giving him opportunist for re-rolling wounds of 1 against vehicles, but also targeting characters.
I'm not so much interested in talking about the list, but more interested in the warbike big Mek configuration. A suitably modelled bike is chucking out a big 9" bubble, has extra dakka, toughness and wounds and all comes in at 101pts.
This configuration saves having to bring an extra big Mek with KFF, for basically an extra 20 points. That would be quite useful indeed for an ork castle.
EDIT...
OK I found my own answer with an online version, as it replaces a sag, then this configuration can never happen. That's a shame, I would have liked to build that model.
Jidmah wrote: Yeah, what Duke said. A gorkanaut can't attack a model on a ruin because it's not within 1" of the base, but you can run them over with a deffrolla because the battlewagon has no base and thus you measure to the roof/turret.
It's right up there with heavy flamers blowing planes out of the sky.
Wait? Really? Cause that's bloody hilarious! Gotta measure if a battlewagon can get within 1/2 inch of a infantry unit who are sitting on the second floor of the new GW buildings. or how many turrets I have to stack to make this hilarity a possibility. Being able to sit underneath a unit and attack them in melee through a floor.
For our epic relic shokk attack gun do you guys run them as Death Skulls for the cool shoot at a character within 18" or Bad Moons so you can spend 4CP and shoot that relic three times?
You can only shoot a Bad Moonz SSAG twice, since both Stratagems specifically say either "shoot a second time" or "shoot twice". So you have to choose one or the other. Also, I wouldn't use the "shoot at a character within 18 inches" Stratagem. Or rather, I would try to go for it. Your SSAG will be too vulnerable that close to the enemy. He's got a 72" range. You're effectively cutting that to a quarter of his maximum range.
I run mine as Freebooterz, and I keep him back with the Smashaz. If they can proc the +1, he'll be hitting those shots on a 4+. Take Big Killa Boss, for even easier Wounding on the targets you want the SSAG to take down.
He probably throws out too many shots to really make good use of the Deffskulls trait. Freebootaz for 4+ to hit or Badmoons for RR1 and a second source of shooting twice are probably the best bet for RNJesus (now in gun form.)
The math was done several pages ago and freeboota and deathskullz are pretty much equal with bad moonz slightly behind
Any 3 of them is fine, which trait affects the rest of your army is more important.
Hey, has anyone officially run the numbers comparing a unit of Tankbustas to a unit of Lootas? I'm pondering moving away from Lootas to Tankbustas, against their tanks I feel the Tankbustas would actually come out on top, and have a lot more consistency while doing so.
Same cost for a 10 man unit of each makes it nice and easy to calculate. I can run the averages but don't know how to show said paperwork in a clean way. xP
Vineheart01 wrote: The math was done several pages ago and freeboota and deathskullz are pretty much equal with bad moonz slightly behind
Any 3 of them is fine, which trait affects the rest of your army is more important.
Freebootaz are worse vs hit modifiers if you're using more dakka strat. On the other hand, it allows you to save 2cp and still shoot ok-ish.
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cody.d. wrote: Hey, has anyone officially run the numbers comparing a unit of Tankbustas to a unit of Lootas? I'm pondering moving away from Lootas to Tankbustas, against their tanks I feel the Tankbustas would actually come out on top, and have a lot more consistency while doing so.
Same cost for a 10 man unit of each makes it nice and easy to calculate. I can run the averages but don't know how to show said paperwork in a clean way. xP
Tankbustas need a trukk to work. While sitting in a trukk, they can't use strategems. They also get within 24. You can't just calculate damage output and call it a day.
cody.d. wrote: He probably throws out too many shots to really make good use of the Deffskulls trait. Freebootaz for 4+ to hit or Badmoons for RR1 and a second source of shooting twice are probably the best bet for RNJesus (now in gun form.)
Nope. Bad moon isn't generating more than one 1 too often. Difference isn't that big but vs knight deathskull eeks out over knights in every instance except now-illegal 3++/5+++(vs mortal) due to regular shots being pretty bad at causing damage so you are relying on getting high # of shots at S11+ anyway.
Though if you don't have deathskull detachment then it's not big deal but if you have both deathskull and bad moon it's deathskull for maximum efficiency. you already have shoot twice for him with the vigilus detachment anyway.
cody.d. wrote: Wait? Really? Cause that's bloody hilarious! Gotta measure if a battlewagon can get within 1/2 inch of a infantry unit who are sitting on the second floor of the new GW buildings. or how many turrets I have to stack to make this hilarity a possibility. Being able to sit underneath a unit and attack them in melee through a floor.
If you build the battlwagon as seen in my avatar (official picture from the supplement that shall not be named), it's tall enough to even melee unit on top of the kill team ruins.
I have been catching people off guard by measuring disembarking distance from the roof since 5th
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Sonminiser wrote: For our epic relic shokk attack gun do you guys run them as Death Skulls for the cool shoot at a character within 18" or Bad Moons so you can spend 4CP and shoot that relic three times?
SSAG should always have the big killa boss warlord trait, as it makes even mediocre rolls for strength good and good rolls great. The deff skulls trait wins as re-rolling a single damage or to wound roll usually does more than re-rolling a one or two for to hit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cody.d. wrote: Hey, has anyone officially run the numbers comparing a unit of Tankbustas to a unit of Lootas? I'm pondering moving away from Lootas to Tankbustas, against their tanks I feel the Tankbustas would actually come out on top, and have a lot more consistency while doing so.
Same cost for a 10 man unit of each makes it nice and easy to calculate. I can run the averages but don't know how to show said paperwork in a clean way. xP
The simple calculation is that lootas can sit in the back and can be protected by gretchin while tank bustas need to run/drive/tellyport into no-mans land without gretchin to protect them, so they are dead after shooting once or less in 9 out of 10 games.
If battlewagons were to become cheaper they might become useful again, but right now they simply lose out to lootas, mek guns and wazzboms because those choices have more range and are more durable.
Sonminiser wrote: For our epic relic shokk attack gun do you guys run them as Death Skulls for the cool shoot at a character within 18" or Bad Moons so you can spend 4CP and shoot that relic three times?
You cannot shoot it three times, since both stratagems only allow you to shoot "twice" (Kustom Ammo) or "a second time" (Showin' Off). Neither allows you to shoot three times.
Sonminiser wrote: For our epic relic shokk attack gun do you guys run them as Death Skulls for the cool shoot at a character within 18" or Bad Moons so you can spend 4CP and shoot that relic three times?
You cannot shoot it three times, since both stratagems only allow you to shoot "twice" (Kustom Ammo) or "a second time" (Showin' Off). Neither allows you to shoot three times.
Better to say, that you can’t shoot because FAQ forbids.
cody.d. wrote: Hey, has anyone officially run the numbers comparing a unit of Tankbustas to a unit of Lootas? I'm pondering moving away from Lootas to Tankbustas, against their tanks I feel the Tankbustas would actually come out on top, and have a lot more consistency while doing so.
Same cost for a 10 man unit of each makes it nice and easy to calculate. I can run the averages but don't know how to show said paperwork in a clean way. xP
The simple calculation is that lootas can sit in the back and can be protected by gretchin while tank bustas need to run/drive/tellyport into no-mans land without gretchin to protect them, so they are dead after shooting once or less in 9 out of 10 games.
If battlewagons were to become cheaper they might become useful again, but right now they simply lose out to lootas, mek guns and wazzboms because those choices have more range and are more durable.
Though if you try and keep them out of line of sight or behind grot screens then use dajump to put them in a suitable location (with as much terrain blocking los to things outside of it's target as possible.) you may be able to keep them alive long enough to perform their duties. While I will admit they arn't as easy to use as lootas I do suspect they would have more consistent output and possibly higher output than lootas. Especially against toughness 8 or 7 targets vehicles.
Ah cool. Hmm, sadly I have most of what's in it already. As for the effigies in the background I'm fairly certain I've seen them around the place a few times. 6th and 7th edition codexs, white dwarfs and the like.
yeah its just walkers. Not even the good walker at that. Deffdreads are alright but killakanz are pretty bad. Wonder why the ones they packed for orks were 2 of the older vehicle kits and least used vehicle kits we got. Not an airforce, wagon wall, or naut pair, or just a mass o nobz
Yeah, a gorkanaught or morkanaught surrounded by some mek guns or dreads would have given a more impressive feel. Hell a trio of battlewagons with rollas would have been fantastic to. Maybe they were just trying to move old stock? If it's cheap enough I'll probs still grab it. XP Conversion fuel yay!
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah its just walkers. Not even the good walker at that.
Deffdreads are alright but killakanz are pretty bad.
Wonder why the ones they packed for orks were 2 of the older vehicle kits and least used vehicle kits we got. Not an airforce, wagon wall, or naut pair, or just a mass o nobz
Why? Because what does GW ALWAYS put in ork box sets? gak that isn't selling. Look at the Kill team box, Burna Boyz....because people were falling all over themselves to buy those right? Look at the Minigame they made for the Vigilus orkz, new buggies (Utter garbage) and those pesky Warbikes that aren't selling anymore since they got nerfed into the ground and the new rules made them untenable. The Ork "Get Started" box set, 2 units nobody uses and a 10 man unit of boyz with a painboy that nobody really needed after buying enough boyz and painboyz for a green tide list. So why did GW pack DeffDreadz and Killa Kanz into this new box set? Because they made the rules so bad for those units that nobody is buying them because in a game that costs you $500+ to begin playing, why would you drop $50 on a unit that will never see play time because its so bad? So if they aren't selling, put them in a box set together and give them a SMALL discount and hope for the best. Plus, look at all the other Apocalypse detachments....Orkz will get steamrolled by literally ANY of them.
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flandarz wrote: If you've ever seen a 50-Cal in action, you'll noticed very quickly how it can negate a cover bonus.
Though if you try and keep them out of line of sight or behind grot screens then use dajump to put them in a suitable location (with as much terrain blocking los to things outside of it's target as possible.) you may be able to keep them alive long enough to perform their duties. While I will admit they arn't as easy to use as lootas I do suspect they would have more consistent output and possibly higher output than lootas. Especially against toughness 8 or 7 targets vehicles.
The most reliable delivery method for Tankbusta's is without a doubt the Chinork Warkopta. It can deepstrike within range in turn two and unleash the busa's pottential. Charge the Warkopta into a vehicle or screening unit in the charge phase to keep it somewhat safe and annoy your opponent a little further.
---
A few pages back we talked about the Gobshot Blunderbuss relic for Bad Moons. I've given it a shot in a tourney this weekend. The Warboss with relic was accompanied by 9 nobs with Kustom shootas in a Chinork Warkopta. While the gun did some minor killing I wasn't awestruck by its effectiveness. An average of 7 autohits turn into a handfull of wounds (depending on the target) and do not much more then kill a couple of infantry models. Shooting at marines and the like is not all that effective since it is only AP -1 and 1 wound. Won't take him again because he is not as effective as many of our other relics and I don't like using Bad Moons since the rerolling is such a hassle.
The unit accompanying the Blunderbuss-boss was very effective though. These 9 Kustom shoota's with their 36 shots do an average of 15.6 hits and eat chaff for breakfast. When their transport gets blown up the turn into a serious threat in the midst of your enemies lines and with a 3+ save they have some nice staying power. At only 16 points a model they are a bargain.
Next time I will take a 10 nob unit in a Warkopta (nice for deepstriking) and a second 12 nob squad in a trukk.
Though if you try and keep them out of line of sight or behind grot screens then use dajump to put them in a suitable location (with as much terrain blocking los to things outside of it's target as possible.) you may be able to keep them alive long enough to perform their duties. While I will admit they arn't as easy to use as lootas I do suspect they would have more consistent output and possibly higher output than lootas. Especially against toughness 8 or 7 targets vehicles.
The most reliable delivery method for Tankbusta's is without a doubt the Chinork Warkopta. It can deepstrike within range in turn two and unleash the busa's pottential. Charge the Warkopta into a vehicle or screening unit in the charge phase to keep it somewhat safe and annoy your opponent a little further.
One round isnt't that impressive though. Not enough to worry many of the targets. You would need the shoot again which you can't do from chinork to really threaten target.
Against leman russ, one of the softer targets, you get about 6.666 wounds with bit of generous dice rolling.
Though if you try and keep them out of line of sight or behind grot screens then use dajump to put them in a suitable location (with as much terrain blocking los to things outside of it's target as possible.) you may be able to keep them alive long enough to perform their duties. While I will admit they arn't as easy to use as lootas I do suspect they would have more consistent output and possibly higher output than lootas. Especially against toughness 8 or 7 targets vehicles.
The most reliable delivery method for Tankbusta's is without a doubt the Chinork Warkopta. It can deepstrike within range in turn two and unleash the busa's pottential. Charge the Warkopta into a vehicle or screening unit in the charge phase to keep it somewhat safe and annoy your opponent a little further.
---
A few pages back we talked about the Gobshot Blunderbuss relic for Bad Moons. I've given it a shot in a tourney this weekend. The Warboss with relic was accompanied by 9 nobs with Kustom shootas in a Chinork Warkopta. While the gun did some minor killing I wasn't awestruck by its effectiveness. An average of 7 autohits turn into a handfull of wounds (depending on the target) and do not much more then kill a couple of infantry models. Shooting at marines and the like is not all that effective since it is only AP -1 and 1 wound. Won't take him again because he is not as effective as many of our other relics and I don't like using Bad Moons since the rerolling is such a hassle.
The unit accompanying the Blunderbuss-boss was very effective though. These 9 Kustom shoota's with their 36 shots do an average of 15.6 hits and eat chaff for breakfast. When their transport gets blown up the turn into a serious threat in the midst of your enemies lines and with a 3+ save they have some nice staying power. At only 16 points a model they are a bargain.
Next time I will take a 10 nob unit in a Warkopta (nice for deepstriking) and a second 12 nob squad in a trukk.
To be fair, 1 blunderbuss (without a skorcha component) kills as many marines as 8 kombishoota nobz.
Vineheart01 wrote: The math was done several pages ago and freeboota and deathskullz are pretty much equal with bad moonz slightly behind
Any 3 of them is fine, which trait affects the rest of your army is more important.
I the numbers were still higher for Deathskulls because you take into effect the damage and wound reroll as well.
Higher, yes, by a flippin' fraction lol. Still just means its more important to pick a kulture that your army wants, not the SSAG.
@Nightlord1987
I run shootas as Bad Moonz and theyre scary good at clearing chaff. They still want to charge, but it isnt the end of the world if they dont. Evil Sunz is fine but i think Bad Moonz is better for them (Evil Sunz for those that desperately want to charge like MANz)
Deffkoptaz if you allow index so they can take KMBs and the Deathskullz trait are stunningly good. W/o index options they kinda suck, ive tried to use them a handful of times and they just dont do anything other than very easily zip across to an objective.
Only Grots are denied kulture benefits so yes Squigbomb woudl reroll 1s. The faction keyword is stuck on its own box, not with the "Tankbusta Keywords" slot, so it applies to both.
I'd still go with Evil Sunz with your Shoota Boyz. They might be shooty, but they're still Boyz. They still want to get into CC. Same for the Koptaz, though they need it a little less than the Boyz do. Pretty sure the Squigbombs reroll 1s, as long as it's a ranged attack.
The deathskulls trait also scales better the LESS shots you get on your first roll. If you get the average of 7, it edges out freebooterz by a small margin. If you roll lower it becomes better and better by comparison, and worse if you roll higher.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Probably been questioned to death but: shoota boyz; Bad Moons or Evil Suns?
Same for Deffkoptaz (which I know arent competitive).
Also, do Squigbombs reroll ones to hit if they are Bad moon?
Thanks, sold off half my Orkz, and just trying to make a fun list with what remains.
Used to do bad moons, now fan of evil suns. Can still clear IG unit and much more reliable charge so 2 chaff cleared for price of 1. And maybe 3 or you get to trap and actually survive(if they don't tri point something they die anyway)
Not enough to make his statement wrong about picking the culture for your army, not your SSAG. A lucky shieldbreaker missile turn 1 can make that wound "nothing".
Waagh everyone.
I've scrupulously crawled through whole 8th edition discussion with all these "SSAG or not" and "BMoons vs Freebootaz", but I haven't found the answer for main beginner's question - "how do you play orks?".
I'm a beginner and in a desperate need for this answer since my games statistic shows that I can beat only some other necron newb. Can someone pay attention and write a short post about general orks army building and tactics?
(or at least send me to exact page of this thread)
Well I will start with sharing my experience playing it is in 8th.
The first mistake I made was going too heavy into the assault part of the army. My first lists focused on units that were good in the assault and I took minimal shooting. The plan was to run up and smash my opponent first or second turn.
I don't think this works, or I couldn't get it to work.
So now I take units that shoot well, and I do still being two or three units that are good in the assault, but mostly you have to shoot your opponent and really soften them up, then finish them off by charging in.
So the battleplan now looks more like this,
Turn 1- Use shooting to take out enemy units that are too good to allow them to stay in the table. Small arms fire goes to work on chaff. Position scoring units.
Turn 2- Distraction unit tellyports in if there is a while in the line to get to key targets. If not then repeat turn 1. Adjust scoring units.
Turn 3- Tellyport in or use da jump to get things into assault. Assault with units designed to do so. Nice scoring units as needed.
Turn 4- Make sure grots are in optimal scoring positions, or can get where they need to by the next turn. (These are the one or two remaining grot units that were kept in hiding and not used to grot shield) Continue to shoot and assault.
Turn 5- Focus on scoring and holding objectives. Mop up.
i always find it difficult to describe how to properly build an ork list. The main rule i follow lately is simply "no random inclusions" - in other words i will NOT bring a vehicle at all unless its my main focus and i end up with 6+ vehicles. I see a lot of ork players do that around my area and it bothers me... "battlewagons are so crap they just die turn1 and you dont get to do anything" ...yeah...when its the only vehicle you have its going to die...try running 2 + a mork for the KFF + a trukk or two + a wazbom flying around. Guarantee one will die quick, rest will probably be fine.
landy wrote: Waagh everyone. I've scrupulously crawled through whole 8th edition discussion with all these "SSAG or not" and "BMoons vs Freebootaz", but I haven't found the answer for main beginner's question - "how do you play orks?". I'm a beginner and in a desperate need for this answer since my games statistic shows that I can beat only some other necron newb. Can someone pay attention and write a short post about general orks army building and tactics? (or at least send me to exact page of this thread)
Like the guys before me said, how to play orks is a complicated question, so let's narrow it down. Do you have certain kind of army in mind? What do you expect from playing your ork army? Are there any models you want to play or some you want to avoid at all costs? How do you feel about moving (and painting!) horde units? What kind of games are you going to play (tournaments, regular store/club games, beer&prezel)? If you already have models, provide a list - then we can arrange them into a better working army and/or tell you what to get next.
In general, there are a couple of things you need to know: First and foremost, orks are not a pure melee army. In fact, we have way more shooting units than melee units. We are jacks of all trades, more similar to space marines than to khorne daemons. Shooting elements are absolutely necessary to make orks work. Second, orks do not work like most other 40k armies. Don't listen to eldar, imperial or chaos players giving you advice, they are used to different kinds of tactics than are needed for orks to work. Third, orks are a pretty unforgiving army. Like Vineheart said, pushing a bunch of units into a pile is not going to work and result in some pretty devastating games. Prepare to lose a lot an by a lot in your first games, even if you are experienced with another army. One of the best players in the world switched to orks and dropped from placing first in tournaments to below 10 for multiple events.
Not enough to make his statement wrong about picking the culture for your army, not your SSAG. A lucky shieldbreaker missile turn 1 can make that wound "nothing".
Yes luck whatever can do big things. Lucky mob of grots can one shot that castellan. Point being? Players shouldn't think about luck but averages. Unless you want to lose of course
Orks are the one faction where average dice roll expectations usually get you into more trouble than help.
When you offset not being able to hit with just more attacks the actual result can skew so heavily both directions its laughable.
Ive had so many times with the SSAG where i missed EVERY attack out of a 10die attack, then a turn or two later only have 2-3 shots but end up with 2x DDDs for 5 hits somehow.
@Iandy I believe the way to go is to understand first what kind of play style you have, than build a list around it.
You can copy any good list from the first page or from Blood of The Kittens, but you have to adapt it to your idea of game. Play a list you like, not one that "always win". I never ran lootas this ed because do not suits how i play and i still have a 70% average wins so far.
If you wanna play competitive you have to use mathammer period. You need to know how does your unit perform ON AVERAGE against vehicle or marines or knight. Some people refuse to do that and than vomit on GW or #badluck because nothing works....
Than target saturation, board control and deployment are the fundamental of any game and any army. Even a 3 knight army. They saturate. With 3 Knights....
At last but not the least, PLAY THE SAME LIST!
It drives me insane when people change list every time they lose. It is a dice game. gak happens, play again and ask yourself always, what could I have done better? What mistakes did I make?
This game has so many levels that some of us has been playing for over 20 years...
"Still struggling with Orks in f8" is extremely useful, at least to dive into the basics. Just started, gotta finish it later. Anyways the hero of that thread swims in despair, and I have no idea for how long.
Well, casual orkish fun i get mostly from building and painting, so on the table I want to enjoy the game. And to win, at least sometimes.
Horde style (all these 150+ infantry models) doesn't attract me at all, but I'm not sure if it's possible to avoid some maxed boys units.
Regarding my collection. I have about 70 boyz (and +30 are waiting for paints and assembly), 30 grots, a magnetized plane (any profile you want), gmorkonaut (magnets again), wagon, trukk, couple of deffdreads, couple of weirdboys, Ghazgkull, defkill trike, pedestrian warboss and his biker colleague, sag mek, index mek and armored mek (to make it quads I need a skaven's doomwheel, but this conversion is postponed), bunch of burnas, bunch of meganobz, ten tankbustas, ten stormboyz, 15 lootas, painboy, some bikers, two mek gunz (gonna make more later), banner nob. Hope no one is forgotten.
There are also some models in bits and plastic (wannabe looted wagon-rhino, wannabe mekadread-armiger, shokkjump dragsta, killakans trio, alternative Badrukk).
I tend to play two batallions, boyz and grots. Auto-take a unit of 15 lootas, about 10 bikers, weirdboy and warboss. I haven't seen biker's glory times, but cant resist their mobility and dakkaguns. I'm also into dread waagh - ssag, grots, lootas and stuff.
Deffskulls seems to be good kultur, your average everyday perks, no extremes. Recently I tried full evil sunz, it was enjoyable, but unrefined roster eventually punished me. Now I'm going to try full freebutaz list, not sure if I should go 2000 pts for it.
When in doubt, pick a unit type you like and shove as many of them as you can down the opponents throat, laughing all the while. Be it vehicles, walkers, infantry or fast units. All of our stuff is fairly squishy and fragile so target saturation is your best bet in most cases.
If you wanna do Freebooterz, you'll probably want to do the full 2k points. It would suck to destroy an enemy unit with the "wrong" unit and not proc the +1, or to miss out on the +1 because a unit isn't in the right Kultur. Freebooterz, unlike the other Kulturz, is really an "all or nothing" Kultur.
Traditionally, the axiom for Orc players is 'Chop the Shooty ones, Shoot the Choppy ones'. Think this still holds in 8th.
As for Kulture, a Freebooterz player needs to watch target priority more than most. Sometimes it's worth shooting a small unit, or finishing off an under-strength one, to get the +1 - but it's _really_ irritating when the Dice Gods rule your shooting to fail, and all that fire-power is wasted ;-)
Points-wise, remember the lower the points level, the more points (proportionately) you will have for toys. Your opponent will, typically, have to spend more on the minimums for 'Battle Forged' than you (proportionately) and thus have less points for toys.
My 1,000 pts list for Freebooterz is two Warboss, three ten man Grots, two ten man Flash Gitz and two Trukk. So far opponents have found the firepower and durability a problem.
Batallion
Big Mek - KMB, KFF, oiler
Warboss on bike - da killa klaw, kustom shoota
30 boyz, 30 boyz, 10 boyz
Banner nob
Painboy - warboss, killa reputation
10 Warbikers
Wazbom blastajet (smasha, flinga, megakannon)
Dread waagh batallion
SSAG big mek with oiler
Weirdboy - da jump
10 grots x3
Gorkanaut
15 lootas
The idea is to use warbikers, jet or gorkanaut to daisy chain kultur while troops slog to crump some gits. KFF and painboy provide some durability to boyz. T1 charges come from warboss or weirdboy, maybe even ramming speed naut, depends on situation.
The only thing I am not sure now is to tellyport naut or not. I've read Nanavati's article about tactical saturation, he says that not deepstriking it gonna ease opponent shooting (since he has a target for 'eavy weapon), but my mind simply refuses to skip one turn of shooting.
landy wrote: Thanks for your support, gitz. Much appreciated.
"Still struggling with Orks in f8" is extremely useful, at least to dive into the basics. Just started, gotta finish it later. Anyways the hero of that thread swims in despair, and I have no idea for how long.
Well, casual orkish fun i get mostly from building and painting, so on the table I want to enjoy the game. And to win, at least sometimes.
Horde style (all these 150+ infantry models) doesn't attract me at all, but I'm not sure if it's possible to avoid some maxed boys units.
Well, you boyz are either 30 or useless, and you'll need to have at least some of those in any army. The good news is that many people are having great success with running just two mobs of 30, with them sitting in the backfield, waiting for their turn to jet gumped to the front.
Regarding my collection. I have about 70 boyz (and +30 are waiting for paints and assembly), 30 grots, a magnetized plane (any profile you want), gmorkonaut (magnets again), wagon, trukk, couple of deffdreads, couple of weirdboys, Ghazgkull, defkill trike, pedestrian warboss and his biker colleague, sag mek, index mek and armored mek (to make it quads I need a skaven's doomwheel, but this conversion is postponed), bunch of burnas, bunch of meganobz, ten tankbustas, ten stormboyz, 15 lootas, painboy, some bikers, two mek gunz (gonna make more later), banner nob. Hope no one is forgotten.
There are also some models in bits and plastic (wannabe looted wagon-rhino, wannabe mekadread-armiger, shokkjump dragsta, killakans trio, alternative Badrukk).
I tend to play two batallions, boyz and grots. Auto-take a unit of 15 lootas, about 10 bikers, weirdboy and warboss. I haven't seen biker's glory times, but cant resist their mobility and dakkaguns. I'm also into dread waagh - ssag, grots, lootas and stuff.
Deffskulls seems to be good kultur, your average everyday perks, no extremes. Recently I tried full evil sunz, it was enjoyable, but unrefined roster eventually punished me. Now I'm going to try full freebutaz list, not sure if I should go 2000 pts for it.
Hope that I've answered any questions of yours
That's looking like a great collection already, you should be able to build a semi-decent "shooty orks list" out of that.
First things first, a battalion with 3x 10 gretchin and 2x weirdboyz should always be part of your army to generate 5 CP. Orks have the best stratagems in the game, more CP mean you army will be doing better.
Second would be your warlord: The SSAG. Walkers or not, use your SAG mek and make his detachment a Dread Waaagh! for 1 CP to gain access to the relic SAG and his very own "shoot twice" stratagem. Give him the Big Killa Boss trait so he can reliable damage vehicle and monsters. Deploy him in a place with good view and try to target big things. With decent rolls the target might be gone after you are done shooting twice.
The second battalion would have to bring 90 boyz (3x 30) until you get more gretchin. Boyz are unlikely to cross the field in one piece, so put one of the mobs into the tellyporta and have it arrive together with one of the others thrown forwards by Da Jump. 60 Boyz appearing in their face is much more likely to do something than just moving them across the field, getting rapid-fired by everyone and their dog before they get to charge.
The second HQ can be either a biker warboss with the killa klaw relic or a KKF mek. If you are going for the warboss, don't run him head-first into the enemy, but wait for a chance to catch a juicy target (preferably a vehicle, monster or expensive HQ) and crush it. Remember the Orks is never beaten stratagem should he be killed in close combat.
Add your lootas and if your plane can build into a wazzbom, use that with a KFF and two mek guns as smashas, or you make it a dakkajet and add two kustom-mega cannons. Smashas are more efficient, but kustom mega kannons might be better in your case as you only have two guns ready.
Lootas should be deployed with gretchin close enough to use the grot shield stratagem. When shooting them, use the Moar Dakka stratagem and re-roll the number of shots if you get a . If they are bad moon lootas, make sure to shoot them twice as long as there are enough of them left.
Make sure to utilize all that shooting to take out things that are good at killing ork boyz so they can rampage through your opponent's army without great resistance. If you add more vehicles, prioritize the anti-tank first.
You know have a solid core for a 1500 point army.
If you want to grow up to 2000, there are multiple things you can do:
- Your gorkanaut can go into the tellyporta and drop on your opponent's head, using the ramming speed stratagem to make sure it gets there. Just like boyz, just deploying within 9" will make him much more likely to kill something than having to walk through anti-tank fire. In case your SSAG is in the same detachment and doesn't need the shoot twice (because it's dead, for example), you can also use it on the naut. You can do the same with a morkanaut, but you already got plenty shooting and the gorkanaut has a great anti-infantry gun to clear screens and better melee.
- Instead (or, in addition to) the gorkanaut you can put two deff dreads into the tellyporta. Important advice on using them is to not drop them as soon as possible, but only if you see an opening where they can either catch your opponent off guard or score VP. Most shooting options on these are wasted unless we are talking about deff skulls kmb. For a full melee load-out equip them with 1 saw and 3 klaws and use the saw for the two basic attacks.
- I have no experience with it, but the mekadread can possibly used in a similar way.
- 3-5 MANz can also - you guessed it - be put into the tellyporta. Unlike the walkers, their job is not to hulk-smash something into oblivion, but to move onto an objective in cover, beat their defenders to death and stay there. Killing units is just a means to an end, the mission is decided by who has the most VP.
Most of the other stuff doesn't really add up to a coherent list (wartrike, one buggy, bikers, 10 tankbustas, Ghaz), or isn't great right now (kanz, burnas, mega mek).
As for cultures, it really depends.
- If you are moving towards tellyporting a bunch of walkers/manz/boyz in, you should go for evil suns. The extra inch to your assault move does wonders for the chance to succeed.
- Deff skulls are great for the wazzbomb blastajet and the SSAG mek, and most of your units benefit from it some way. Note that deff skulls want PK for their nob bosses as the outperform big choppas. Don't forget the wreckers stratagem if you need something gone.
- Bad moons are awesome for pretty much any shooting unit, especially lootas. Their shoot twice stratagem is nothing less than awesome.
Of course, you can mix and match by moving units from one detachment to another. Just be careful as your gretchin need to have the same kulture as your lootaz, you can't protect units from a different kulture. In addition, if the SSAG is not in the same detachment as your other walkers, they cannot be targeted Dread Waaagh! stratagem - a small price to pay for more reliable charges.
- Bad moons are awesome for pretty much any shooting unit, especially lootas. Their shoot twice stratagem is nothing less than awesome.
My personal experience says that rerolling 1 for shooting is pretty useless. I just roll some crap 2-3 and dont benefit from kultur at all. "Shoot twice" is fine, but already covered by dread waagh.
I think I should rework my roster a bit using your advices, I'll show it up later. Thank you again.
- Bad moons are awesome for pretty much any shooting unit, especially lootas. Their shoot twice stratagem is nothing less than awesome.
My personal experience says that rerolling 1 for shooting is pretty useless. I just roll some crap 2-3 and dont benefit from kultur at all. "Shoot twice" is fine, but already covered by dread waagh.
I think I should rework my roster a bit using your advices, I'll show it up later. Thank you again.
Math behind it is basically that you get roundabout 17% more hits out of any unit. Of course, on a unit which doesn't hit that often, this has little visible effect, but when you are shooting a dakkajet, gorkanaut's mega-shoota, a unit of shootaboyz or lootaz, this effect is much more visible.
Note that the shoot twice from the dread waagh cannot be used on lootaz, only on big meks and walkers. In addition, you can use both in one turn, shooting both your lootaz and your SSAG twice.
In any case, you seem to have made up your mind to use freebootas anyways, so go for it! That culture works well with pretty much everything you would want to field, you just need to make sure you always trigger it with units than benefit less from it and hold back shooting with your lootaz, planes and SAG until the trait is activated. Alternative, jump your plane next to a character and blow it up, easiest way to trigger the trait.
Don't forget it also works for the fight phase - have your warboss mob up an infantry unit or character and then go to town with a naut or boyz unit.
Don't every use the stratagem though - it's hardly worth 1 CP, let alone 3.
Just wondering Should we start working up a thread for Apocalypse Orks tactics? The gameplay hasn't quite leaked enough yet but with the Change to Strength against Personnel and Strength against tanks, there could be implications for our mech lists.
The Ork tactics revealed today too claiming that killa kans were getting a buff based on this change. I had thought of this idea Since units wound them the same as they heavier vehicles. They might finally make it out of my case.
mhalko1 wrote: Just wondering Should we start working up a thread for Apocalypse Orks tactics? The gameplay hasn't quite leaked enough yet but with the Change to Strength against Personnel and Strength against tanks, there could be implications for our mech lists.
The Ork tactics revealed today too claiming that killa kans were getting a buff based on this change. I had thought of this idea Since units wound them the same as they heavier vehicles. They might finally make it out of my case.
Might be a very stupid question buuuuut ... what do you do with your Da Jump weirdboyz once they have cast their spell turn one? I run a rush list, and they usually then sit at the back not doing much, hanging out with grots. Am I having the wrong end of the stick here?
JeffVimes wrote: Might be a very stupid question buuuuut ... what do you do with your Da Jump weirdboyz once they have cast their spell turn one? I run a rush list, and they usually then sit at the back not doing much, hanging out with grots. Am I having the wrong end of the stick here?
They should be pushing forward to smite realistically. Or they can cap backfield objectives using character keyword to hide. or they can da jump other squads turn 2+
Weirdboyz can dajump themselves, its not "another unit" its "a unit"
Often i'll dajump myself once theres no boyz around and just drop behind something that either wants Warpath/Fists (depending on which one i took) or just near something i wanna smite.
Vineheart01 wrote: Weirdboyz can dajump themselves, its not "another unit" its "a unit"
Often i'll dajump myself once theres no boyz around and just drop behind something that either wants Warpath/Fists (depending on which one i took) or just near something i wanna smite.
Another unit means after the first unit. If he another boys unit has rolled low for advancing he can da jump those. But yes he can da jump himself but I wouldn't do that until it's the last option.
that was kinda the point.
Once hes jumped the boyz around him unless someone is still near him to utilize other spells he took (if any) or something close enough to smite, might as well jump himself.
It actually won me my last game since i saw a spot i could eek behind his warlord. Jumped, closest model was a character, smite. Nuked my brains because i boxcar'd but in that scenario i actually wanted that as i 1shotted his warlord with the D6 smite lol
mhalko1 wrote: Just wondering Should we start working up a thread for Apocalypse Orks tactics? The gameplay hasn't quite leaked enough yet but with the Change to Strength against Personnel and Strength against tanks, there could be implications for our mech lists.
The Ork tactics revealed today too claiming that killa kans were getting a buff based on this change. I had thought of this idea Since units wound them the same as they heavier vehicles. They might finally make it out of my case.
If you like to talk about the new Apocalypse game, please create a thread on the specialist game forum - in my opinion this game, while having lots of great ideas, is no more related to Warhammer40k than KillTeam.
I've been out of the hobby for a while, six months to a year, I wanted to get an idea from everyone what rules content I'll need to play again in a couple weeks. I have a few things already;
-40k rule book
-Errata for 40k rule book
-Chapter Approved from 2019
-Ork Codex
-Ork Codex FAQ
I'd like to get my hands on everything, what else is needed?
Things I need;
-Imperial Nihilus:Vigilance Defiant
I had a ridiculous game yesterday evening. I brought out Evil Sunz with a dreadwaaagh detachment. It was mostly boyz, a loota unit (15 strong) some grot screens and a battery of 6 Smasha Gunz, some other odds and ends to fill out 3 battalions and of course my Vaunted Big Mek with SSAG relic. My opponent brought out the big guns and was playing an IG army with Knight support. I somehow got turn 1 and basically ended the game in my Psychic and shooting phase.
Da Jumped a unit of 30 Boyz into range of not only his Infantry but his 2 Tank Commanders as well (10' charge), these are Evil Sunz boyz as well so 8' charge. In the shooting phase with my big mek i rolled 9 for strength and then i rolled an 11 for # of shots!, my Warboss Big Mek also had the +1 to wound Warlord trait. So 11 shots and i got.....9 hits I had 6 initial hits and 3 rerolls which all hit. 9 hits turned into 8 wounds and he only had his 4+ Invuln save which saved 2. So what did I roll for Dmg? 3 6s a 5 and a pair of 3s. In the assault phase the mob of boyz managed to tie up both tank commanders and two infantry squads and at that point my opponent said GG.
I've never one shot a knight before so this was incredible. To make up for how well it did that game, the next game we played ended with him only managing 4 dmg the entire game against a Tank Commander. Eitherway, i'll remember that game for awhile. Not as epic as the time I rolled box cars on an Eldar Wraithknight but still pretty good
That, boyz and gitz, is the epitome of ork shooting luck going to the extreme.
It happens, statistically it doesnt happen very often but its so ridiculous we remember it forever lol
Vineheart01 wrote: That, boyz and gitz, is the epitome of ork shooting luck going to the extreme.
It happens, statistically it doesnt happen very often but its so ridiculous we remember it forever lol
and to add an extra point. It also relied on some very bad rolls on the knights part. 2/8 saves on a 4++ is pretty poor.
Min squad Loaded up with free index options 2 burnas, tank buster bomb, maybe a bigchoppa on boss.
Depending how you play they can be an additional threat unit that can do decent secondary charges particularly well in ruins/cover. (Or eat overwatch if that’s your thing)
Or late game objective grabber coming from reserves.
The best thing with kommandos is you get to choose when and where you need them.
Kommandos are gonna be mostly useful for Objective Camping, and you probably have better options for that as well. Can't think of a whole lot I'd use Kommandos for that a Da Jumped Boy Blob wouldn't do better. Or even just some Storm Boyz.
They'd be a bit more useful if they had 24" weapons, cuz then you could throw them into Blood Axes and have an (effective) 4+ save while shooting at people.
I guess the best reason to take them is for the cheap Elite slots, for a Brigade. But even then, you'll probably just be using them to cap Objectives.
min kommando squads and solo koptas are the ideal mid/late game objective grabbers. Normally their not used as an actual threat competitively, but I've seen some lists that run 2x5 and a 15 man squad so you have at least one squad that poses a threat.
Honestly, I wouldn't bother with them unless you're building a Brigade. But three Battalions have good units is generally gonna do you more good than taking suboptimal units to fill a Brigade.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Any good ideas for using Kommandos? Perhaps as backfield screens using their cover bonus? Or are they merely just saving us CP for tellyporting.
The usually only see play when building brigades, but quite often so. The most successful use I have seen is using 5 kommandoz with 2 big shootas, have then infiltrate and beat some scoring unit of an objective in cover - +1 to wound helps quite well with that. Once you are on that objective, you just sit there in 4+ cover and plonk away at stuff with your big shootas.
Seems like a neat set-up. I certainly wouldn't call it terrible, at all, but (like you said) it's a big investment. Especially once you take the 2-3 Big Meks you'll need to keep them under a KFF. Go with 'Ard Top, since anything that would be able to shoot with them is gonna wanna be outside them anyway.
Biggest issue (aside from the pricetag) that I see is that, even with 60" range, you'll need to move them to get LOS. And since Moar Dakka will only affect one of them, the other two will be hitting on 6s (5s, with Freebooterz). That's a lot of wasted shots for the pricetag. Probably not a great pick for competitive, but for a semi-casual environment it'll work just fine.
flandarz wrote: Seems like a neat set-up. I certainly wouldn't call it terrible, at all, but (like you said) it's a big investment. Especially once you take the 2-3 Big Meks you'll need to keep them under a KFF. Go with 'Ard Top, since anything that would be able to shoot with them is gonna wanna be outside them anyway.
Biggest issue (aside from the pricetag) that I see is that, even with 60" range, you'll need to move them to get LOS. And since Moar Dakka will only affect one of them, the other two will be hitting on 6s (5s, with Freebooterz). That's a lot of wasted shots for the pricetag. Probably not a great pick for competitive, but for a semi-casual environment it'll work just fine.
Don't Battlewagons ignore the move and shoot penalty? Or was that a different unit?
It's a big investment, just under 600 points. But when you factor in something like More Dakka it looks quite powerful.
Arguably if you run them as Freebootas you could be hitting on 4's, or if you run them as Badmoonz you are re-rolling 1's to hit.
In my opinion they don't compare well to wazzboms, mek guns (even KMK are give you much more shooting) or even buggies like the scrapjet or the shokk-jump dragsta. If you'd spend the same points on any of those, you'll end up with much more dakka.
In any case, if you want to try, you could use the specialist detachment and have a warboss with the Blitz Shouta inside one of your wagons, allowing all three of them to re-roll ones.
First game was against Genestealer cults. First few turns went well, did plenty of damage, triggered freeboota most turns. Sadly when the abborants and then the rocksaw units dropped down gorkanaughts and scrapjets started to die. Damn the abberants take a hell of a beating. But quite a few of our weapons are ideal for removing their somewhat fragile units. Especially when firing twice. The game ended in a draw due to a relic sniper hitting the weirdboy who had sprinted to an objective, a few poor choices on my part lost me some points.
Second was against a drathwatch, loyal 32 and smashcaptain triple batallion. The 40 marines with stormsheilds, terminators and all the bells and whistles was a pain in the ass to shift. And sadly I got over eager and put the gorkanaughts in poor positions as I tried to use their shooting and melee to put dent in those marines. 2 naughts got caught out and one shotted by smashcaptain and a libby dread. Sadly I lost due to not wrapping my naughts properly, and the fact that those deathwatch marines are so incredibly tanky with their 3++ 2+ termies and a character in the back to give them a 6+++ feel no pain.
Last game was with a guard artillery formation, with 3 basalisks, 2 wyverns and ahydra backed up by 3 hellhounds and 80 or so catachan guard. To make things even more difficult he had Yarrik. (and lucky me I was the only ork in the tourney) Things started out rather well, the shokka mek really shone, RNJesus blessing me with 2 rounds of mortal wound output on the turn I chose to double shoot. Super, uber unlikely but I was happy for it. Sadly he deployed very well, with our armies being deployed as one drop and I went first he was able to counter deploy and keep his arty out of range of quite a bit. The first turn went well, until he started swamping the field with catachan nutjobs, and a unit of ogryn with the shrouding spell on them began to take a toll both on objective points and kill points. Once again due to quite a few deployment and movement mistakes he managed to win a very convincing victory.
I rather loved the list though it needs some tweaking, I liked the scrapjets for their versatility and ability to make use of freebootas to the fullest, or trigger it against most targets. The mek guns likewise were usually reliable for triggering the trait though occasionally they flopped which was depressing. The weirdboy spent most of the games inside a gorkanaught, just couldn't get the timing right of dropping him off. Could be worth getting a Dakka jet, the wazbomb would give a little more KFF and antitank though.
It's a big investment, just under 600 points. But when you factor in something like More Dakka it looks quite powerful.
Arguably if you run them as Freebootas you could be hitting on 4's, or if you run them as Badmoonz you are re-rolling 1's to hit.
6D6 ends up being 21 shots on average, at BS 5+ you will get about 8-9 hits with Dakkax3. Against Knights that is 4 to 4.5 wounds which then get a 4+ invuln against so 2 to 2.25 which equals out to about 6 to 7 damage.
6D6 sounds like a lot until you remember we hit on 5s I hate to say it because I love wagonz, but they are trash in that configuration. Its basically Bonebreaker or bust.
First game was against Genestealer cults. First few turns went well, did plenty of damage, triggered freeboota most turns. Sadly when the abborants and then the rocksaw units dropped down gorkanaughts and scrapjets started to die. Damn the abberants take a hell of a beating. But quite a few of our weapons are ideal for removing their somewhat fragile units. Especially when firing twice. The game ended in a draw due to a relic sniper hitting the weirdboy who had sprinted to an objective, a few poor choices on my part lost me some points.
Second was against a drathwatch, loyal 32 and smashcaptain triple batallion. The 40 marines with stormsheilds, terminators and all the bells and whistles was a pain in the ass to shift. And sadly I got over eager and put the gorkanaughts in poor positions as I tried to use their shooting and melee to put dent in those marines. 2 naughts got caught out and one shotted by smashcaptain and a libby dread. Sadly I lost due to not wrapping my naughts properly, and the fact that those deathwatch marines are so incredibly tanky with their 3++ 2+ termies and a character in the back to give them a 6+++ feel no pain.
Last game was with a guard artillery formation, with 3 basalisks, 2 wyverns and ahydra backed up by 3 hellhounds and 80 or so catachan guard. To make things even more difficult he had Yarrik. (and lucky me I was the only ork in the tourney) Things started out rather well, the shokka mek really shone, RNJesus blessing me with 2 rounds of mortal wound output on the turn I chose to double shoot. Super, uber unlikely but I was happy for it. Sadly he deployed very well, with our armies being deployed as one drop and I went first he was able to counter deploy and keep his arty out of range of quite a bit. The first turn went well, until he started swamping the field with catachan nutjobs, and a unit of ogryn with the shrouding spell on them began to take a toll both on objective points and kill points. Once again due to quite a few deployment and movement mistakes he managed to win a very convincing victory.
I rather loved the list though it needs some tweaking, I liked the scrapjets for their versatility and ability to make use of freebootas to the fullest, or trigger it against most targets. The mek guns likewise were usually reliable for triggering the trait though occasionally they flopped which was depressing. The weirdboy spent most of the games inside a gorkanaught, just couldn't get the timing right of dropping him off. Could be worth getting a Dakka jet, the wazbomb would give a little more KFF and antitank though.
From your reports I would have to say that a dakkajet would really help. I like them mainly for their ability to get close to support/key characters and pump str 6 -1 ap hits into them.
A pair of dakkajets does a great job at taking down even fairly durable characters.
First game was against Genestealer cults. First few turns went well, did plenty of damage, triggered freeboota most turns. Sadly when the abborants and then the rocksaw units dropped down gorkanaughts and scrapjets started to die. Damn the abberants take a hell of a beating. But quite a few of our weapons are ideal for removing their somewhat fragile units. Especially when firing twice. The game ended in a draw due to a relic sniper hitting the weirdboy who had sprinted to an objective, a few poor choices on my part lost me some points.
Second was against a drathwatch, loyal 32 and smashcaptain triple batallion. The 40 marines with stormsheilds, terminators and all the bells and whistles was a pain in the ass to shift. And sadly I got over eager and put the gorkanaughts in poor positions as I tried to use their shooting and melee to put dent in those marines. 2 naughts got caught out and one shotted by smashcaptain and a libby dread. Sadly I lost due to not wrapping my naughts properly, and the fact that those deathwatch marines are so incredibly tanky with their 3++ 2+ termies and a character in the back to give them a 6+++ feel no pain.
Last game was with a guard artillery formation, with 3 basalisks, 2 wyverns and ahydra backed up by 3 hellhounds and 80 or so catachan guard. To make things even more difficult he had Yarrik. (and lucky me I was the only ork in the tourney) Things started out rather well, the shokka mek really shone, RNJesus blessing me with 2 rounds of mortal wound output on the turn I chose to double shoot. Super, uber unlikely but I was happy for it. Sadly he deployed very well, with our armies being deployed as one drop and I went first he was able to counter deploy and keep his arty out of range of quite a bit. The first turn went well, until he started swamping the field with catachan nutjobs, and a unit of ogryn with the shrouding spell on them began to take a toll both on objective points and kill points. Once again due to quite a few deployment and movement mistakes he managed to win a very convincing victory.
I rather loved the list though it needs some tweaking, I liked the scrapjets for their versatility and ability to make use of freebootas to the fullest, or trigger it against most targets. The mek guns likewise were usually reliable for triggering the trait though occasionally they flopped which was depressing. The weirdboy spent most of the games inside a gorkanaught, just couldn't get the timing right of dropping him off. Could be worth getting a Dakka jet, the wazbomb would give a little more KFF and antitank though.
From your reports I would have to say that a dakkajet would really help. I like them mainly for their ability to get close to support/key characters and pump str 6 -1 ap hits into them.
A pair of dakkajets does a great job at taking down even fairly durable characters.
I think you may be onto something there. Having the ability to kill some characters would be nice. The wazbomb has pretty good output.
First game was against Genestealer cults. First few turns went well, did plenty of damage, triggered freeboota most turns. Sadly when the abborants and then the rocksaw units dropped down gorkanaughts and scrapjets started to die. Damn the abberants take a hell of a beating. But quite a few of our weapons are ideal for removing their somewhat fragile units. Especially when firing twice. The game ended in a draw due to a relic sniper hitting the weirdboy who had sprinted to an objective, a few poor choices on my part lost me some points.
Second was against a drathwatch, loyal 32 and smashcaptain triple batallion. The 40 marines with stormsheilds, terminators and all the bells and whistles was a pain in the ass to shift. And sadly I got over eager and put the gorkanaughts in poor positions as I tried to use their shooting and melee to put dent in those marines. 2 naughts got caught out and one shotted by smashcaptain and a libby dread. Sadly I lost due to not wrapping my naughts properly, and the fact that those deathwatch marines are so incredibly tanky with their 3++ 2+ termies and a character in the back to give them a 6+++ feel no pain.
Last game was with a guard artillery formation, with 3 basalisks, 2 wyverns and ahydra backed up by 3 hellhounds and 80 or so catachan guard. To make things even more difficult he had Yarrik. (and lucky me I was the only ork in the tourney) Things started out rather well, the shokka mek really shone, RNJesus blessing me with 2 rounds of mortal wound output on the turn I chose to double shoot. Super, uber unlikely but I was happy for it. Sadly he deployed very well, with our armies being deployed as one drop and I went first he was able to counter deploy and keep his arty out of range of quite a bit. The first turn went well, until he started swamping the field with catachan nutjobs, and a unit of ogryn with the shrouding spell on them began to take a toll both on objective points and kill points. Once again due to quite a few deployment and movement mistakes he managed to win a very convincing victory.
I rather loved the list though it needs some tweaking, I liked the scrapjets for their versatility and ability to make use of freebootas to the fullest, or trigger it against most targets. The mek guns likewise were usually reliable for triggering the trait though occasionally they flopped which was depressing. The weirdboy spent most of the games inside a gorkanaught, just couldn't get the timing right of dropping him off. Could be worth getting a Dakka jet, the wazbomb would give a little more KFF and antitank though.
Sounds like you mostly need more practice with your list - don't change it up too much, keep playing it. I agree with the dakkajet notion though, sniping characters with them is one of the easiest way to trigger the freeboota trait.
As for the weird boy... if you aren't getting any use out of him, maybe replace him with Badrukk?
First game was against Genestealer cults. First few turns went well, did plenty of damage, triggered freeboota most turns. Sadly when the abborants and then the rocksaw units dropped down gorkanaughts and scrapjets started to die. Damn the abberants take a hell of a beating. But quite a few of our weapons are ideal for removing their somewhat fragile units. Especially when firing twice. The game ended in a draw due to a relic sniper hitting the weirdboy who had sprinted to an objective, a few poor choices on my part lost me some points.
Second was against a drathwatch, loyal 32 and smashcaptain triple batallion. The 40 marines with stormsheilds, terminators and all the bells and whistles was a pain in the ass to shift. And sadly I got over eager and put the gorkanaughts in poor positions as I tried to use their shooting and melee to put dent in those marines. 2 naughts got caught out and one shotted by smashcaptain and a libby dread. Sadly I lost due to not wrapping my naughts properly, and the fact that those deathwatch marines are so incredibly tanky with their 3++ 2+ termies and a character in the back to give them a 6+++ feel no pain.
Last game was with a guard artillery formation, with 3 basalisks, 2 wyverns and ahydra backed up by 3 hellhounds and 80 or so catachan guard. To make things even more difficult he had Yarrik. (and lucky me I was the only ork in the tourney) Things started out rather well, the shokka mek really shone, RNJesus blessing me with 2 rounds of mortal wound output on the turn I chose to double shoot. Super, uber unlikely but I was happy for it. Sadly he deployed very well, with our armies being deployed as one drop and I went first he was able to counter deploy and keep his arty out of range of quite a bit. The first turn went well, until he started swamping the field with catachan nutjobs, and a unit of ogryn with the shrouding spell on them began to take a toll both on objective points and kill points. Once again due to quite a few deployment and movement mistakes he managed to win a very convincing victory.
I rather loved the list though it needs some tweaking, I liked the scrapjets for their versatility and ability to make use of freebootas to the fullest, or trigger it against most targets. The mek guns likewise were usually reliable for triggering the trait though occasionally they flopped which was depressing. The weirdboy spent most of the games inside a gorkanaught, just couldn't get the timing right of dropping him off. Could be worth getting a Dakka jet, the wazbomb would give a little more KFF and antitank though.
Sounds like you mostly need more practice with your list - don't change it up too much, keep playing it. I agree with the dakkajet notion though, sniping characters with them is one of the easiest way to trigger the freeboota trait.
As for the weird boy... if you aren't getting any use out of him, maybe replace him with Badrukk?
Aye, myself and 3 other dudes from my area and all of us were using lists we weren't super familiar with. The weirdboy usually spends a lot of time in the naught, occasionally putting out a smite, or in one instance giving a naught warpath for an extra set of sweep attacks. Badrukk may be worth it, gives some decent shooting, works with freebootas. But I also suspect that another shokk mek could be good. Add in another chance for those gorgeous double 6s Hell I think a funny list would be 9 shokk meks, on bike, index and standard. Just pray to RNJesus and go for broke.
I'm pretty sure the Bike Mek can't take a SAG. And that the Index Mek and the Codex Mek share a datasheet. But even if it IS valid, I doubt it'll be a great strategy. That's like 1k pts spent on 9 models that are gonna be most effective against armor (and even then have a tendency to whiff a lot). Unless you're playing against pure Knights or some other "handful of big models) list, you're gonna have a tough time. Even against the "ideal" opponent, remember that (on average), those 1k pts of Mekz are gonna have 35 shots and at 5+, you'll only be hitting about 12-13 of them, Wounding about half of those, and after Saves you'll probably see 2-3 of them get to your target.
Tldr; 9 Mekz may be illegal, and even if it ain't, it's too swingy to rely on.
flandarz wrote: I'm pretty sure the Bike Mek can't take a SAG. And that the Index Mek and the Codex Mek share a datasheet. But even if it IS valid, I doubt it'll be a great strategy. That's like 1k pts spent on 9 models that are gonna be most effective against armor (and even then have a tendency to whiff a lot). Unless you're playing against pure Knights or some other "handful of big models) list, you're gonna have a tough time. Even against the "ideal" opponent, remember that (on average), those 1k pts of Mekz are gonna have 35 shots and at 5+, you'll only be hitting about 12-13 of them, Wounding about half of those, and after Saves you'll probably see 2-3 of them get to your target.
Tldr; 9 Mekz may be illegal, and even if it ain't, it's too swingy to rely on.
Fairly sure the biker mek can. It's in the same slot as the KFF. And remember there is no codex choice for a default Mek who can take either the KFF or Shokk but the Shokk mek in the codex is a entirely separate choice, which wouldn't be affected by the recent FAQ that hit demon Princes and the like. You could make them either freebootas or Deffskullz to make them more accurate. The silly idea being that at least one mek each turn is likely as not to roll those magical double sizes. Mind you I wouldn't take this to a tourney, you're right that it's far too swingy and unreliable to rely on, but damn if it wouldn't be bloody hilarious.
Well, with 9 Mekz, and a 1 in 12 chance of getting an 11+, it'll be about every other turn (on average). The important thing to remember is that it's still dependent on successfully hitting the target. Deathskullz would be less than ideal for this, since they only allow 1 reroll per unit. Go Freebooterz or Bad Moonz. If you're fishing for MWs, the improved accuracy is more important than rerolling Wounds and Damage.
But this is not competitive in the least. Hell, I think it might be untenable in casual games as well. I don't even know if it would even be fun, since it's so "all or nothing". Ie: you're either gonna be really lucky and just destroy everything or (more likely) you're gonna lose by a hefty margin.
Mmmm. . . Each Mek would be a separate unit? So the Deff Skull kulture applies to each?
But the whole idea is definitely out there in the ‘sh1ts & giggles’ category, along with the looted Baneblade running Flintstone style on Ork legs instead of tracks. A fun mental exercise, not really practical.
flandarz wrote: I'm pretty sure the Bike Mek can't take a SAG. And that the Index Mek and the Codex Mek share a datasheet. But even if it IS valid, I doubt it'll be a great strategy. That's like 1k pts spent on 9 models that are gonna be most effective against armor (and even then have a tendency to whiff a lot). Unless you're playing against pure Knights or some other "handful of big models) list, you're gonna have a tough time. Even against the "ideal" opponent, remember that (on average), those 1k pts of Mekz are gonna have 35 shots and at 5+, you'll only be hitting about 12-13 of them, Wounding about half of those, and after Saves you'll probably see 2-3 of them get to your target.
Tldr; 9 Mekz may be illegal, and even if it ain't, it's too swingy to rely on.
Fairly sure the biker mek can. It's in the same slot as the KFF. And remember there is no codex choice for a default Mek who can take either the KFF or Shokk but the Shokk mek in the codex is a entirely separate choice, which wouldn't be affected by the recent FAQ that hit demon Princes and the like. You could make them either freebootas or Deffskullz to make them more accurate. The silly idea being that at least one mek each turn is likely as not to roll those magical double sizes. Mind you I wouldn't take this to a tourney, you're right that it's far too swingy and unreliable to rely on, but damn if it wouldn't be bloody hilarious.
You are right! I am actually considering putting my relic SAG on bike now. I am more or less always up against Vindicare Assassins or other snipers, since I run him as WL with big killa trait he always gets targeted first :( ... You will lose the infantry keyword which will help alot against Vindicare and +1 t and wounds for only 26pts more. Could be worth! What do you guys think?
flandarz wrote: I'm pretty sure the Bike Mek can't take a SAG. And that the Index Mek and the Codex Mek share a datasheet. But even if it IS valid, I doubt it'll be a great strategy. That's like 1k pts spent on 9 models that are gonna be most effective against armor (and even then have a tendency to whiff a lot). Unless you're playing against pure Knights or some other "handful of big models) list, you're gonna have a tough time. Even against the "ideal" opponent, remember that (on average), those 1k pts of Mekz are gonna have 35 shots and at 5+, you'll only be hitting about 12-13 of them, Wounding about half of those, and after Saves you'll probably see 2-3 of them get to your target.
Tldr; 9 Mekz may be illegal, and even if it ain't, it's too swingy to rely on.
Fairly sure the biker mek can. It's in the same slot as the KFF. And remember there is no codex choice for a default Mek who can take either the KFF or Shokk but the Shokk mek in the codex is a entirely separate choice, which wouldn't be affected by the recent FAQ that hit demon Princes and the like. You could make them either freebootas or Deffskullz to make them more accurate. The silly idea being that at least one mek each turn is likely as not to roll those magical double sizes. Mind you I wouldn't take this to a tourney, you're right that it's far too swingy and unreliable to rely on, but damn if it wouldn't be bloody hilarious.
You are right! I am actually considering putting my relic SAG on bike now. I am more or less always up against Vindicare Assassins or other snipers, since I run him as WL with big killa trait he always gets targeted first :( ... You will lose the infantry keyword which will help alot against Vindicare and +1 t and wounds for only 26pts more. Could be worth! What do you guys think?
Well, the book says "BIG MEKS, GORKANAUTS , MORKANAUTS , DEFF DREADS and KILLA KANS in that Detachment gain the DREAD WAAAGH! keyword.". And about SSAG there is "DREAD WAAAGH! CHARACTER". Biked Mek can't handle this supa shokka due to no needed dread label.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Any good ideas for using Kommandos? Perhaps as backfield screens using their cover bonus? Or are they merely just saving us CP for tellyporting.
I find Kommandos are pretty good for filling out a Trukk and acting as ablative wounds when (and its nearly always when) it blows up. 4 Index Kommandos, 2 with burna, plus a bare bones Nob with slugga and choppa are only 40 points. The 2 bog standard Kommandos are the first to die if I start rolling 1s. The burnas give a bit of a sting if the vehicle is then charged and the Nob can wound a Marine on a 2+ if you manage to dismount into cover.
I'm currently running 2 trukks both with 5 Flashgits and 5 kommandos in each (Freebootas brigade) The kommandos are there to die but if they survive they'll hide out in terrain. 5 man squads aren't going to do much against anything other than guard squads so once the trukk blows up there role is objective holding. ITC rules suit them well if they can remain in cover as they'll be out of LoS and they'll get a 4+ save against mortars (the most common indirect fire IMO in the current META)
flandarz wrote: I'm pretty sure the Bike Mek can't take a SAG. And that the Index Mek and the Codex Mek share a datasheet. But even if it IS valid, I doubt it'll be a great strategy. That's like 1k pts spent on 9 models that are gonna be most effective against armor (and even then have a tendency to whiff a lot). Unless you're playing against pure Knights or some other "handful of big models) list, you're gonna have a tough time. Even against the "ideal" opponent, remember that (on average), those 1k pts of Mekz are gonna have 35 shots and at 5+, you'll only be hitting about 12-13 of them, Wounding about half of those, and after Saves you'll probably see 2-3 of them get to your target.
Tldr; 9 Mekz may be illegal, and even if it ain't, it's too swingy to rely on.
Fairly sure the biker mek can. It's in the same slot as the KFF. And remember there is no codex choice for a default Mek who can take either the KFF or Shokk but the Shokk mek in the codex is a entirely separate choice, which wouldn't be affected by the recent FAQ that hit demon Princes and the like. You could make them either freebootas or Deffskullz to make them more accurate. The silly idea being that at least one mek each turn is likely as not to roll those magical double sizes. Mind you I wouldn't take this to a tourney, you're right that it's far too swingy and unreliable to rely on, but damn if it wouldn't be bloody hilarious.
You are right! I am actually considering putting my relic SAG on bike now. I am more or less always up against Vindicare Assassins or other snipers, since I run him as WL with big killa trait he always gets targeted first :( ... You will lose the infantry keyword which will help alot against Vindicare and +1 t and wounds for only 26pts more. Could be worth! What do you guys think?
Well, the book says "BIG MEKS, GORKANAUTS , MORKANAUTS , DEFF DREADS and KILLA KANS in that Detachment gain the DREAD WAAAGH! keyword.". And about SSAG there is "DREAD WAAAGH! CHARACTER". Biked Mek can't handle this supa shokka due to no needed dread label.
As far as I can see the Big mek on bike still has the <Big Mek> keyword so cant see why you cant take the relic SAG on bike?
First game was against Genestealer cults. First few turns went well, did plenty of damage, triggered freeboota most turns. Sadly when the abborants and then the rocksaw units dropped down gorkanaughts and scrapjets started to die. Damn the abberants take a hell of a beating. But quite a few of our weapons are ideal for removing their somewhat fragile units. Especially when firing twice. The game ended in a draw due to a relic sniper hitting the weirdboy who had sprinted to an objective, a few poor choices on my part lost me some points.
Second was against a drathwatch, loyal 32 and smashcaptain triple batallion. The 40 marines with stormsheilds, terminators and all the bells and whistles was a pain in the ass to shift. And sadly I got over eager and put the gorkanaughts in poor positions as I tried to use their shooting and melee to put dent in those marines. 2 naughts got caught out and one shotted by smashcaptain and a libby dread. Sadly I lost due to not wrapping my naughts properly, and the fact that those deathwatch marines are so incredibly tanky with their 3++ 2+ termies and a character in the back to give them a 6+++ feel no pain.
Last game was with a guard artillery formation, with 3 basalisks, 2 wyverns and ahydra backed up by 3 hellhounds and 80 or so catachan guard. To make things even more difficult he had Yarrik. (and lucky me I was the only ork in the tourney) Things started out rather well, the shokka mek really shone, RNJesus blessing me with 2 rounds of mortal wound output on the turn I chose to double shoot. Super, uber unlikely but I was happy for it. Sadly he deployed very well, with our armies being deployed as one drop and I went first he was able to counter deploy and keep his arty out of range of quite a bit. The first turn went well, until he started swamping the field with catachan nutjobs, and a unit of ogryn with the shrouding spell on them began to take a toll both on objective points and kill points. Once again due to quite a few deployment and movement mistakes he managed to win a very convincing victory.
I rather loved the list though it needs some tweaking, I liked the scrapjets for their versatility and ability to make use of freebootas to the fullest, or trigger it against most targets. The mek guns likewise were usually reliable for triggering the trait though occasionally they flopped which was depressing. The weirdboy spent most of the games inside a gorkanaught, just couldn't get the timing right of dropping him off. Could be worth getting a Dakka jet, the wazbomb would give a little more KFF and antitank though.
Sounds like you mostly need more practice with your list - don't change it up too much, keep playing it. I agree with the dakkajet notion though, sniping characters with them is one of the easiest way to trigger the freeboota trait.
As for the weird boy... if you aren't getting any use out of him, maybe replace him with Badrukk?
Ya IMO the weirdboys main use is warpath and da jumping boyz (in that order). Your list isn't really in need of him. I'm taking a shine to Badrukk. Flashgitz would have the best synergy with him.
flandarz wrote: I'm pretty sure the Bike Mek can't take a SAG. And that the Index Mek and the Codex Mek share a datasheet. But even if it IS valid, I doubt it'll be a great strategy. That's like 1k pts spent on 9 models that are gonna be most effective against armor (and even then have a tendency to whiff a lot). Unless you're playing against pure Knights or some other "handful of big models) list, you're gonna have a tough time. Even against the "ideal" opponent, remember that (on average), those 1k pts of Mekz are gonna have 35 shots and at 5+, you'll only be hitting about 12-13 of them, Wounding about half of those, and after Saves you'll probably see 2-3 of them get to your target.
Tldr; 9 Mekz may be illegal, and even if it ain't, it's too swingy to rely on.
Fairly sure the biker mek can. It's in the same slot as the KFF. And remember there is no codex choice for a default Mek who can take either the KFF or Shokk but the Shokk mek in the codex is a entirely separate choice, which wouldn't be affected by the recent FAQ that hit demon Princes and the like. You could make them either freebootas or Deffskullz to make them more accurate. The silly idea being that at least one mek each turn is likely as not to roll those magical double sizes. Mind you I wouldn't take this to a tourney, you're right that it's far too swingy and unreliable to rely on, but damn if it wouldn't be bloody hilarious.
You are right! I am actually considering putting my relic SAG on bike now. I am more or less always up against Vindicare Assassins or other snipers, since I run him as WL with big killa trait he always gets targeted first :( ... You will lose the infantry keyword which will help alot against Vindicare and +1 t and wounds for only 26pts more. Could be worth! What do you guys think?
Well, the book says "BIG MEKS, GORKANAUTS , MORKANAUTS , DEFF DREADS and KILLA KANS in that Detachment gain the DREAD WAAAGH! keyword.". And about SSAG there is "DREAD WAAAGH! CHARACTER". Biked Mek can't handle this supa shokka due to no needed dread label.
As far as I can see the Big mek on bike still has the <Big Mek> keyword so cant see why you cant take the relic SAG on bike?
I usually take my SSAG with a grot oiler and a 10grot shield just for assassins cover. Using Freebooterz I think it would be counterproductive to put it on bike, as moving it would make me lose the sorely needed +1. Might be better in any other cultures using DDD+More Dakka+ Kustom Ammo
Also note that bikes cannot climb ruins, this would break the SSAG for me, as most of our terrain is ruins.
Something I'd rather try is use a big mek on a bike with two kustom shootas, git stoppa shells and the deff skulls warlord trait. If you shoot that twice, few character will get up afterwards.
I'm having good success with the 70 evil sunz boyz (30 +30+10 all starting under a KFF) mobbing up a 30 and 10, then warpathing them, then da jumping them, declaring EVERYTHING within 12" when I charge and finally using the fight twice strat Theres only one thing better than 30 boyz with 5 attacks each and its 40 boyz with 5 attacks each. The added cushion of the extra 10 boyz means they'll "probably" remain above the magic 20 mark for the extra 1 A for longer.
The Flashgitz and Kommandos in a trukk x 2 (which I do my best to hide behind cover) mean that My expensive Flashgitz survive any alpha strikes.
My order of fire is normally either the lootas or SSAG first (with more dakka strat if they've moved or are firing at a flyer) and then flashgitz and Kaptain badrukk.
I put one squad of kommandos in reserve along with the 3 deffkoptas if its alternating deployment to allow me to see how my opponent is setting up. My evil sunz blob + kff comes down next. At that stage I'll have a fair idea where I should best place the lootas and SSAG. Roving Deffkoptas and kommandos coming from reserves is a great way to get Recon points in ITC
I wrap multiple grot squads around the lootas and spread the casualties between them. Then use the Freeboota relic to pass morale checks on multiple units (who normally have a Ld of 4) reducing the chance of my opponent getting kill more at least for the first turn. What remains of the grot squads then hide T2 in order to prevent becoming easy kill scores.
SSAG Mek and Badrukk both have grot orderlies to mitigate snipers.
I'm tempted to swith the weirdboy to evil sunz and the Kff mek to freebootas so I can give the KFF mek the relic. Otherwise I'm putting alot of eggs in a basket that has a high possibility of erupting in a ball of psychic energy.
SSAG Mek takes eithe BIg killa warlord trait +1 against monsters or vehicles or if my opponent doesn't have any vehicles or targetable monsters (think version of Jim Vessals Daemon list) I take the warlord trait that gives me +1 CP and breaking heads (no hard to have near my 15 man loota squad)
I start with 20 Cp but spend 5 before the game. No longer bad moonz so I save on only spending CPs on one shoot twice strat.
I'm having good success with the 70 evil sunz boyz (30 +30+10 all starting under a KFF) mobbing up a 30 and 10, then warpathing them, then da jumping them, declaring EVERYTHING within 12" when I charge and finally using the fight twice strat Theres only one thing better than 30 boyz with 5 attacks each and its 40 boyz with 5 attacks each. The added cushion of the extra 10 boyz means they'll "probably" remain above the magic 20 mark for the extra 1 A for longer.
The Flashgitz and Kommandos in a trukk x 2 (which I do my best to hide behind cover) mean that My expensive Flashgitz survive any alpha strikes.
My order of fire is normally either the lootas or SSAG first (with more dakka strat if they've moved or are firing at a flyer) and then flashgitz and Kaptain badrukk.
I put one squad of kommandos in reserve along with the 3 deffkoptas if its alternating deployment to allow me to see how my opponent is setting up. My evil sunz blob + kff comes down next. At that stage I'll have a fair idea where I should best place the lootas and SSAG. Roving Deffkoptas and kommandos coming from reserves is a great way to get Recon points in ITC
I wrap multiple grot squads around the lootas and spread the casualties between them. Then use the Freeboota relic to pass morale checks on multiple units (who normally have a Ld of 4) reducing the chance of my opponent getting kill more at least for the first turn. What remains of the grot squads then hide T2 in order to prevent becoming easy kill scores.
SSAG Mek and Badrukk both have grot orderlies to mitigate snipers.
I'm tempted to swith the weirdboy to evil sunz and the Kff mek to freebootas so I can give the KFF mek the relic. Otherwise I'm putting alot of eggs in a basket that has a high possibility of erupting in a ball of psychic energy.
SSAG Mek takes eithe BIg killa warlord trait +1 against monsters or vehicles or if my opponent doesn't have any vehicles or targetable monsters (think version of Jim Vessals Daemon list) I take the warlord trait that gives me +1 CP and breaking heads (no hard to have near my 15 man loota squad)
I start with 20 Cp but spend 5 before the game. No longer bad moonz so I save on only spending CPs on one shoot twice strat.
Any thoughts and comments are welcome.
Your list is pretty efficient and there is nothing you could take out anywhere.
You could experiment with doing double battalions instead of a brigade, losing 2 CP but freeing up the point of koptas and kommandoz for better units, like planes or mek guns.
Mind elaborating how you use Badrukk? There is painfully little info on him, and I would like to improve his description in the first post.
Ya I’m considering splitting the brigade into 2 battalions 1 bad moonz with the lootas and 1 with badrukk and the flashgitz. Some of the points I’d “save” by losing the 3 deffkoptas and 1 kommandos would be spent on another hq, probably a weird boy. That leaves 100 points for 3 Mek gunz (is there a plane for 100 points?)
It’s definitely an option but honestly I find the deffkoptas are pretty good especially if I can get the +1 to hit. The index bombs are pretty fun too. Also the freeboota relic trick only is effective with a large number of Grots. The layout you mentioned effectively saves me 3 cp too... (1 for not making the weirdboy a warp head and 2 cp by not taking a 3rd relic)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I’ve only recently started using badrukk and he’s way different to pilot that any other ork unit. We might not like to admit it but our the rest of our characters have the staying power of a 16 year old dude losing his virginity. Obviously you want to keep him out of cc but ironically with His 6 w and 5++ he’ll last longer than all but gaz and a reliced up warboss with 5++.
I run him with an ammo runt and start him in a trunk with 5 flash gitz and 5 kommandos. My opponent doesn’t realize it but if I go second I actually want it blown up so he and the flash gitz don’t get -1 for moving. I always super power his gun and have at least 1 squad of flashgitz using his Reroll 1s. He, the SSag, lootas and two squads of flashgitz ALWAYS are within 24” of each other for the first 2 turns at a minimum. I have 70 Boyz for cc.
If I get t1 I drive the truck up beside a building, fire the SSag twice to get the +1 for everyone inside and wait for return fire. When the truck blows up I dismount the flash gitz and badrukk into the top floor of the building (looting the truck if I have points) giving me a unit with 2+ thanks to cover or just dismount then them into the bottom floor so they can’t be shot thanks to itc. Obviously this then means they’ll have to move in my turn if they want to shoot so this tactic is dependent on what weapons my opponent has yet to fire.
It's just a sidegrade, your list is fine as it is. I just wanted to give an idea to play with. 3 Kommadoz and 3 Koptas add up to 239, that should be plenty to get a wazzbomm or dakkajet.
Just curious if we should have a discussion about the page 1 rankings. I imagine a lot of visitors still look to that which while still relevant could use some updates for points changes and counter meta
Front page is pretty spot on currently.
Majority of ork units are trash except in specific scenarios, which is why theres so few Green text ones. And even the green text ones are not auto-include.
Ahh, how did i miss that >_< maybe the new snotling being born had me on less due to paternity leave
looks good, looks like you got most everything.
I would probably add the regular squiggoth in there and it skinda between yellow and blue (bout on par with a chinork). at T 7, W 18, 4+
10 infanty capacity is low but makes a great delivery system for 10 nobz and its stampede catches opponents off guard with the d3 mortals to anythign within 1" on a 2+ .
the embarked units still get to shoot even if engaged so its also not a bad platform for flashgitz.
my personal fav loadout is 5x flashgitxz and 5x nobz, 1 pk 4 dual choppa. nobz jump once it hits combat and tear though things whiel the flashgitz get to shoot away until thier transport goes down.
Jidmah wrote: It's just a sidegrade, your list is fine as it is. I just wanted to give an idea to play with. 3 Kommadoz and 3 Koptas add up to 239, that should be plenty to get a wazzbomm or dakkajet.
Thanks for the explanation on Badrukk!
I'd still have/want to keep two squads of kommandos (80points) to act as ablative wounds for the flash gitz in the trukks. Splitting the brigade into 2 battalions would require an extra HQ so thats 60 points at a minimum. Thats 99 points max to spend. Cheapest flyer is the dakkajet at 128 points.
Snikrot would probably be good if he wasnt a freakin' bloodaxe. 18" range for your kulture effect on a pure melee unit....especially one that can just appear 9" away. Talk about useless. The fall back and charge or shoot part is neat but the guy is a meatblender against anything nonvehicle, he isnt going to get stuck in combat easily and if he does he's probably dead.
6 attacks at S6 AP1 2D hitting on 2s rerolling 1s wounding everything not-vehicle (i.e. T6 or greater) on 3s or 2s if theyre in cover. Thats just sickening and i really want to use him but fethin bloodaxe trait man.... To top it off, thats a 70pt T5 6W model. Armor is the only real drawback in his statline, and of course cant give him Cybork because he's named.
Ive been trying to find a valid way to use bloodaxes, obviously not as a whole army. Main problem i keep coming into is that kulture does next to nothing for Boyz and if we use vanguards/spearheads/etc we have a CP problem.
I'd place Badrukk right alongside his Flash Gitz in the blue tier. He's pretty good, with his solid gun and great Save, but he really shines alongside Flash Gitz he can give his Aura to. He can still have a place in lists without Gitz, but you'd probably be better off just taking a SAG Mek at that point.
I second the issues with Snikrot. He'd be great if you could take him in other Kulturz, but because he's stuck with the sub-par Blood Axes, I wouldn't put him any higher than yellow tier. Not because he's bad, but because his Kultur is.
Vineheart01 wrote: Snikrot would probably be good if he wasnt a freakin' bloodaxe. 18" range for your kulture effect on a pure melee unit....especially one that can just appear 9" away. Talk about useless. The fall back and charge or shoot part is neat but the guy is a meatblender against anything nonvehicle, he isnt going to get stuck in combat easily and if he does he's probably dead.
6 attacks at S6 AP1 2D hitting on 2s rerolling 1s wounding everything not-vehicle (i.e. T6 or greater) on 3s or 2s if theyre in cover. Thats just sickening and i really want to use him but fethin bloodaxe trait man....
To top it off, thats a 70pt T5 6W model. Armor is the only real drawback in his statline, and of course cant give him Cybork because he's named.
Ive been trying to find a valid way to use bloodaxes, obviously not as a whole army. Main problem i keep coming into is that kulture does next to nothing for Boyz and if we use vanguards/spearheads/etc we have a CP problem.
Snikrot is already in there, near the top of the blue section. He actually has shown up in quite a few top placing army lists, since some people make their 30 gretchin battalion blood axe to help their weird boyz against snipers, as most sniper rifles are AP 0 and the gretchin don't care anyways.
He is usually used just like MANz, deep strike, beat something off an objective, stay there.
Badrukk seems to have gotten lost, but his text wasn't that helpful anyways besides "yes, dis is da shooty git". I agree with putting him next to flash gits, as he is a pretty cheap HQ that works well if he fits in with your army.
Since the last FAQ (29th april) do freebooter mek gunz procure the freebooter trait +1 to hit ? Or has that part ont the grots not "exhibiting any trait" killed the freebooter procurement ?
Thanks guys !
That would explain why CaptainO you have no mek gunz in your list right ?
Da snotty lil gitz huv betta eyes dan us, gutta admitt dat boss
PS: thanks Jidmah
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way is that an ITC official ruling ? it guess it is but i will have to run that through a french TO so i need leverage
addnid wrote: Since the last FAQ (29th april) do freebooter mek gunz procure the freebooter trait +1 to hit ? Or has that part ont the grots not "exhibiting any trait" killed the freebooter procurement ?
Thanks guys !
That would explain why CaptainO you have no mek gunz in your list right ?
I don’t have mek gunz because I can’t find the points anywhere. If I split the brigade into 2 battalions I could take 3 but it’d cost me 2 cp, 1 unit of kommandos and 3 deffkoptas.
A 10 man squad of grots actually proc’d me +1 yesterday. Granted it was a spire mine they killed but still...
yaknow despite the fact that every time i play a 2v2 i realize my weirdboyz can Warpath the guy im playing with's nobz regardless of clan i always forget that their kulture means literally nothing in terms of their spells when listbuilding, so my weirdboyz are always badmoonz which does zilch for them lol I really should run them as bloodaxes so i can use snikrot too
I wouldn't take Blood Axes just to buff your Weirdboy. He's a character, so 99% of the time people aren't gonna be able to target him anyway. The remaining times it'll either be a sniper (and that Cover Bonus is gonna be of minimal help) or they'll be within 18" and you won't get the trait anyway.
That said, I can see an MSU battalion of Grots, Snikrot, and a Weirdboy working out ok, but I feel like spending 240ish pts just to bring Snikrot around and have a *slightly* more durable Weirdboy is a waste. Just bring a KFF Mek and call it a day.
Snakebite would be decent too after all he perils for me every dang game thanks to that +3 causing perils. Adding snikrot instead of a 2nd weirdboy would be more of a playstyle thing. If you have a bunch of boyz you probably want 2 weirdboyz, but i usually run mechanized orks. Lot of wagons, walkers, buggies, planes. Weirdboy doesnt do anything for them and generally the 20 boyz that get out of a wagon are too far for the weirdboy to help unless he dajumps himself, which case i'd rather him follow the 1 unit of 30 boyz i did have i already jumped previously. As a result that 4th HQ slot for me is usually up in the air. BikerKFF, Wartrike, Weirdboy are usually in all of my lists. I have a bikerboss but i generally dont use him since hes technically a Wazdakka model i kitbashed a long time ago..way more guns on him than he actually has lol. Snikrot would be an interesting inclusion as he can just appear with everything else and go murder-spree at those irritating devastators atop a ruin or something, which i usually have issues with unless i dump my big guns on them thanks to marines always having a freakin' 2+ save this edition.
Snikrot is only 8pts more than a weirdboy after all.
flandarz wrote: I wouldn't take Blood Axes just to buff your Weirdboy. He's a character, so 99% of the time people aren't gonna be able to target him anyway. The remaining times it'll either be a sniper (and that Cover Bonus is gonna be of minimal help) or they'll be within 18" and you won't get the trait anyway.
Almost all sniper rifles that are not characters are AP0, so blood axes actually give the best protection against those out of all traits. Since the battalion is just 3 units of gretchin and 1-2 weird boyz, you lose literally nothing from making them blood axes.
That said, I can see an MSU battalion of Grots, Snikrot, and a Weirdboy working out ok, but I feel like spending 240ish pts just to bring Snikrot around and have a *slightly* more durable Weirdboy is a waste. Just bring a KFF Mek and call it a day.
Not almost every ork list that has place in the top 4 this year has not run such a minimal battalion. Any ork army running in a tournament should start with 30 gretchin + 2 weird boyz for +5 CP, no matter what. They are very much our version of the loyal 32.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Waaaghbert wrote: Why not make the Weirdboyz snakebites for that 6+++ against perils?
EDIT: quoted wrong post
Mostly because the chance of actually not blowing yourself up is pretty minimal and 5+ is better at saving against rank and file snipers (scouts, ratlings, path finders) than 6+/6+++ even if you factor in the mortal wounds on sixes.
But the difference is minimal. Snakebites, deff skulls and blood axes are all decent choices for our weird 32.
It only gives the best protection if you don't place your characters in cover and/or out of LOS when you see you're up against snipers. Which I assume most people would do if they feel their characters are threatened.
I'll agree that if you're running triple Batts and have nothing better for that MSU Batt, then Blood Axes are fine. I run Freebooter Mechanized, so I tend to just run double Batts, since CP isn't as big of an issue with my list.
Don't they also have AP though? If not, then even if they ignore LOS, your character would still be in Cover. If they ignore Cover too (which some units do), then Blood Axes wouldn't work anyway.
flandarz wrote: Don't they also have AP though? If not, then even if they ignore LOS, your character would still be in Cover. If they ignore Cover too (which some units do), then Blood Axes wouldn't work anyway.
They're AP-1, but do not Ignore Cover, if I remember correctly.
You'd also need that hiding spot to still be close enough to the 30man (or 2x30) boyz to get the bonus to your spells and still have line of sight to them too. Sure, its possible, if your opponent only has 1 sniper and hes in a location you can easily hide behind a random 2" wide but 3-5" tall spire. I generally never see snipers, or i see multiples of them spread across the board to prevent just that. One cant shoot, others usually can. Plus, i dont like hanging back waiting for Da Jump to go off. The moment i do that, i fail it and my boyz dont move. I want to move forward as fast as possible, and since boyz that large in numbers CANNOT get cover from terrain thanks to the "whole unit must be in terrain" crap, theres no point in going a little slower like in past editions to hug terrain unless you can somehow guarantee the really deadly anti-boy weapon cant get you if you stay where you are. I want my weirdboy going with them for both the bonus to spells and also it sometimes ends up being where i dont even need dajump, so i smite instead. Or dajump out of combat. If hes hugging that random spire so the sniper cant have LOS to him, he might as well not exist.
The Cover Bonus is +1, so AP -1 is essentially ignoring cover (in 99% of cases). But fair enough.
Can you not fit 30 Boyz within 10" of a Weirdboy when they have a wall in front of them? That hasn't been my experience, but maybe you play in extremely heavy terrain. I'm a little confused about why any LOS blocking terrain you have isn't sufficient to force those snipers to move to hit you as well. At the very least, a 60pt Trukk will provide sufficient LOS blocking to make those snipers move to get a bead on you.
The only reason I can think of to use Blood Axes instead of just putting your characters in cover would be if you're playing extremely light to no terrain. If you wanna move your Weirdboy too, that's fine. But as soon as you get into Smite range, you'll no longer be getting your Blood Axe trait anyway.
As for failed Da Jumps: are you being serious? You have a 91.7% chance of getting a Da Jump off (when you have your 30 Boyz within 10"), and that's before Command Reroll. If you're failing it enough that you have to plan around that failure, you must be extremely unlucky.
If you're really concerned about snipers on T1, you could also just pop the Prepared Positions Stratagem for 2 CP, and then EVERYONE has Cover. Including the Boy Blobz. After T1, if you're not keeping your WB out of LOS or in Cover, then you're probably within 18" of an enemy anyway (or will soon be), so Blood Axes ain't doing you no good.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I should clarify that I don't think Jidmah's "Weird 32" is a bad idea. It certainly works for some lists. For me though? I wouldn't use it. I wouldn't be able to use those 30 Gretchin for Grot Shield (except on the two Weirdboyz, and I'd rather use it on some Lootaz), and I'd rather just keep my Weirdboyz in Cover or out of LOS. Even if the WBs don't get anything for it, I think it'd be better to make that MSU Battalion match the Clan of the Lootaz or SSAG, so I got extra bodies for Grot Shields.
flandarz wrote: The Cover Bonus is +1, so AP -1 is essentially ignoring cover (in 99% of cases). But fair enough.
Can you not fit 30 Boyz within 10" of a Weirdboy when they have a wall in front of them? That hasn't been my experience, but maybe you play in extremely heavy terrain. I'm a little confused about why any LOS blocking terrain you have isn't sufficient to force those snipers to move to hit you as well. At the very least, a 60pt Trukk will provide sufficient LOS blocking to make those snipers move to get a bead on you.
The only reason I can think of to use Blood Axes instead of just putting your characters in cover would be if you're playing extremely light to no terrain. If you wanna move your Weirdboy too, that's fine. But as soon as you get into Smite range, you'll no longer be getting your Blood Axe trait anyway.
The thing is, you need to pick a culture for that battalion anyways. For gretchin and weird boyz, Goff, evil suns, bad moons and freebootas basically equate "no culture" in outside of rare edge scenarios. That leaves three cultures with minor defensive buffs on the weird boy, with one giving more defensive bonuses in certain metagames than others. Some use bad moons for that detachment because they want to shoot their lootas twice and have the bulk of their army of a another culture. Some use snakebites for that detachment because snipers are less of an issue and/or they face TS, vindicares and illic a lot. Some, like you, use the same culture as their main army because they are running multiple units of boyz and otherwise don't have enough grot shields. So, there are many options to pick from, but despite being useless in all other cases, Bloodaxe is definitely a valid one - especially if you were thinking about bringing Snikrot anyways. Obviously this requires extra gretchin to protect your lootas - or replace lootas with planes and mek guns.
If you're really concerned about snipers on T1, you could also just pop the Prepared Positions Stratagem for 2 CP, and then EVERYONE has Cover. Including the Boy Blobz. After T1, if you're not keeping your WB out of LOS or in Cover, then you're probably within 18" of an enemy anyway (or will soon be), so Blood Axes ain't doing you no good.
Usually the weird boy wants to cast da jump for the first two turns before joining the fray himself. Even when you are not going first, getting your weird boy gunned down by 3 squads of path finders is still a problem for your game plan.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I should clarify that I don't think Jidmah's "Weird 32" is a bad idea. It certainly works for some lists. For me though? I wouldn't use it. I wouldn't be able to use those 30 Gretchin for Grot Shield (except on the two Weirdboyz, and I'd rather use it on some Lootaz), and I'd rather just keep my Weirdboyz in Cover or out of LOS. Even if the WBs don't get anything for it, I think it'd be better to make that MSU Battalion match the Clan of the Lootaz or SSAG, so I got extra bodies for Grot Shields.
Putting a weirdboy in cover is not a problem, but the bloodaxe trait gives you the flexibility to move anywhere you want, getting cover everywhere. Those gretchin should be the ones sitting on objectives, not the ones protecting the lootas. As above, the culture of your weird 32 detachment is not a binary choice, many factors play into that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tournament update: Added another Ork Warboss to the first post who ran Badrukk, 10 Flash gits, 15 Tankbustas and a bunch of mek guns to a grand tournament win last weekend.
Those are all fair points. I guess I'm on board with that logic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On another note, I think that GW left some cheese in the Codex. Obviously, I don't think this is intended, but I wanted to put it out there and see what you guys thought.
Great Waaagh!: Friendly ORK INFANTRY units within
6" of Ghazghkull Thraka at the start of the Charge
phase can charge even if they Advanced this turn. In
addition, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models
in friendly ORK INFANTRY units if they made a charge
move this turn and Ghazghkull Thraka is within 6" of
that unit when they are chosen to fight.
Waaagh!: Friendly <CLAN> INFANTRY units within
6" of this model at the start of the Charge phase can
charge even if they Advanced this turn.
Speedwaaagh!: Friendly <CLAN> BIKER and VEHICLE
units within 6" of this model at the start of the Charge
phase can charge even if they Advanced this turn.
Am I wrong in thinking these, by RAW, are usable on your opponent's turn as well? Am I missing something important? Cuz, otherwise, that can get pretty gross. Because they say "at the start of the charge phase", I feel like they would occur before your opponent's charges as well.
flandarz wrote: Those are all fair points. I guess I'm on board with that logic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On another note, I think that GW left some cheese in the Codex. Obviously, I don't think this is intended, but I wanted to put it out there and see what you guys thought.
Great Waaagh!: Friendly ORK INFANTRY units within
6" of Ghazghkull Thraka at the start of the Charge
phase can charge even if they Advanced this turn. In
addition, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models
in friendly ORK INFANTRY units if they made a charge
move this turn and Ghazghkull Thraka is within 6" of
that unit when they are chosen to fight.
Waaagh!: Friendly <CLAN> INFANTRY units within
6" of this model at the start of the Charge phase can
charge even if they Advanced this turn.
Speedwaaagh!: Friendly <CLAN> BIKER and VEHICLE
units within 6" of this model at the start of the Charge
phase can charge even if they Advanced this turn.
Am I wrong in thinking these, by RAW, are usable on your opponent's turn as well? Am I missing something important? Cuz, otherwise, that can get pretty gross. Because they say "at the start of the charge phase", I feel like they would occur before your opponent's charges as well.
Tau have a thing that says “at the end of the shooting phase repair d3 wounds” which a local tau player takes to mean he can repair d3 in both his own and my shooting phase. Personally I think this is not RAI and I wouldn’t use the example you mentioned but if he does the tau equivalent... it might at least stop him using The same logic.
), shot one 
. If they are bad moon lootas, make sure to shoot them twice as long as there are enough of them left.
Eitherway, i'll remember that game for awhile. Not as epic as the time I rolled box cars on an Eldar Wraithknight but still pretty good 
