Thanks for the responses. I gotta say I've found speed mob a joy to play. Based on chats here I binned speed king (and as a result decided to go single detachment) and found the removal of auras freeing. I don't hate the limitation of units and strats especially in a competitive tournament style game with a clock where time is of the essence. I never have any CPs left by T4 anyway which im ok with.
I get why people want more options but I've found the choice I have to make is on which unit I use the specific strats. I don't know about others but my speed mob strat list is.
3cp place planes in reserve
1cp drive by dakka (3/4 times a game)
2cp ramming speed
1cp crashing through (2/3 times a game)
2cp chaaarge
1cp blitza dakka (1/2 times in a game)
2cp auto pass morale
2cp attack out of the sun
I also have the following in my back pocket
1cp more gitz over here (fall back and shoot)
2cp Breaking heads
2cp orks is never beaten
1cp tide of muscle
2cp cloud of smoke
2cp more dakka
In a competitive game I just don't know if I'd want any more because I know I won't remember them.
Completely agree with you.
Speedmob is fun to play and fast enough for a tournament.
I used to play Speedking but yes, it's a pain to keep your Units in.
I rather try to screen / engage which does not work well together with the aura.
I'm also fond of 1 detachment for the extra CP and thus prefer to take I've got a plan lads for free Wazbom reserve.
About the strats I feel mostly the same. Sometimes autopass, often ramming speed / crushing through, reroll shot number on the Wazbom, blitza dakka, more Gits over here, tellyporta, tactical awareness and blitza dakka are my most used ones.
I've decided to skip the Alphork list for the next tournament as it's really time consuming and exhausting.
Had another game today against Tau crisis spam with 3 Broadsides with Speedmob.
Trike, 3 Scrapjets, 3 Squigbuggies, 3 Dragsta, 2 KBB, 1 Snazzwagon, 9 Bikes, 2 Wazboms.
Again I did not really miss the Koptas, the Bikes helped a lot with scoring.
I was still able to screen out until turn 3 against his deepstriking Crisis and had again stuff in reserve: 3 Dragstas and 2 Wazboms in strategic reserve and the Scrapjets in tellyporta.
I was able to win 60:59 but got tabled turn 5.
Killed the Broadsides, 8 Crisis, lots of Drones and most of his Kroot.
Tau isn't that bad of a matchup if you properly screen out your backfield.
Got 0 VP on Assassinate, 12 on Stranglehold and 10 on no prisoners. If its 5 markers Stranglehold is far better than engage, this one depends highly on the mission.
Not sure if I should skip the Snazzwagon for 2 x 5 Bikes instead to have a better angle at actions.
It was quite tanky today with its natural -1 to hit and got me at least 8 VP with surviving some shooting!
Squigbuggies have been doin some chipping but I think I could reduce them to a squad of 5...
Scrapjets and Dragstas again super solid damage dealers and Scrapjets & KBB have been doing a good amount of MW's.
Have a little bit of time for the rematch today, so I'm gonna see what I'll come up with.
I skipped the Cloud of Smoke for the simmilar reason (and for the price tag) too. If you have half of the units in DS and the half of the rest has in-built Cloud of smoke for free, why pay 2CP to protect 3 buggies….
Fun is, how many variations of Speed Mob is available. First time I saw the rules, it was like “there is one awailable built”. Hohoho, I was so wrong…
I really just wish nobs on bikes would get updated to get the special rules… what speed mob lacks is just a decent melee unit beyond scrapjets..
5x nobs on bikes with big choppas l with the ability to turn 1 charge in speed mob and the charge strat would be an extremely helpful unit in this meta.
20x str8 ap-2 dam2 hits @ ws3 is needed in speed mob.
It would be a also fairly durable unit at 4+/5++ (-1 to hit at range only) and t5/20w.
Ya blitza dakka is great with a deep stike unit. Saving a CP for wazbomms is interesting although it's only for one d6 shots.
The stikkbom chukka would get to reroll 2d6 though and honestly it's not terrible with the -1ap (against tau and eldar anyway)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gungo wrote: I really just wish nobs on bikes would get updated to get the special rules… what speed mob lacks is just a decent melee unit beyond scrapjets..
5x nobs on bikes with big choppas l with the ability to turn 1 charge in speed mob and the charge strat would be an extremely helpful unit in this meta.
20x str8 ap-2 dam2 hits @ ws3 is needed in speed mob.
It would be a also fairly durable unit at 4+/5++ (-1 to hit at range only) and t5/20w.
Deffkoptas are no slouch in combat especially in a large enough unit of 5/6. While swingy the mortal wound strat can rock and you can use the fly to jump over any bubble wrap to target characters (with the mortal wounds)
im guessing he thought "makes 1 extra attack" meant the entire combat sequence, so 3x4=12
"Attack" is specifically 1 die rolling to hit, wound, save, damage. 40k is worded to technically be rolled 1 die at a time, its just generally bulk-rolled because it usually doesnt matter (keyword, usually)
So i had 3 games total against Tau yesterday and was able to win all 3 of them. All games were against Crisis heavy list with 3 Broadsides.
I slightly changed my BA Speedmob each game and ended up with 5 + 5 + 4 Warbikes but otherwise similar to my last posted BA Speedmob lists.
A few more things i noticed that might help against Tau, mainly if you play Speedmob:
My favourite new tool is tellyporting the 3 Scrapjets! It has done so much damage, is a great allrounder unit and tends to get most of the opponents dakka if they can get their hands an them. I`ve put them in strategic reserve as well before via ive got a plan together with the two Wazboms, put found it too much restricting where they can come in.
Instead i put my Dragstas in strategic reserve and went down from 3 -> 2 in my last two games. It`s really hard to get a spot for 3 of them and unlike the Scrapjets they don`t mind coming in 24" away and just shoot. My Scrapjets want to charge after tellyporting a lot.
KBB are my personal underestimated unit. Their main gun really isn`t that great but at least offers more range, which is a problem sometimes for all our 24" guns. Overall it offers a fantastic package with the spiked ram, the 4 flamers and medium movement. Yesterday they killed a commander that thought he could be sneaky being protected by bodyguard crisis in a ruin behind him, but with ramming speed & chrashing through he got rammed to death faster than he could say Montka.
KBB is also a good unit to hang around midfield, threaten stuff and screen out your other stuff. And they are quite cheap!
I was a big fan of the mono detachment for the extra CP, but right now i`m leaning back towards double detachment.
For one i`m gonna skip Koptas and they were my most CP expensive unit and BA offer a few tools for extra CP.
But having more units felt actually really comfortable for screening, engaging and scoring.
Warbikers are a must have for me. I played Speedmob a LOT the last months and while the buggy heavy lists have some really solid output, you score less and loose good units faster. Especially against Tau those 3 units were pure gold for me.
Little sidenote about scoring: You don`t need to score good - you need to score more than you opponent. While that is kinda obvious it helped me a lot to fokus more on denying the opponents VP. My games yesterday went 60:59, 66:62 and 79:52. (Without battleready bonus)
I was trying very hard to deny RND, used Bikes to prevent banners, sacrificed 2 KBB for a 8 VP swing and so on. 2 of my games i actually went for 4 safe RND points and used my Bikes afterwards just for denying the opponents VP instead for 4 more RND points which in the end was worth it, as they managed to reduce his scoring by more than 4.
Also i rather go for secondaries that might not max out but will give my a few safe VP. No prisoners against Tau is the perfekt example. With proper screening and using his Airburst units good i might score pretty low, but it also has a good chance on spiking and chances of 0 points are pretty low, which can happen for stuff like Good bitz.
My only bad secondary was assassinate on which i scored 0 in my first game and still won.
Oh and not having Koptas is keeping the bring it down score pretty low, especially when 9 of those ~15-16 VP come in from reserve. In my games yesterday the opponent maxed it out just once and i was using some of my vehicles very aggressively.
Overall i think 2 detachments will help a bit more with scoring, while mono detachment will have a little more damage output.
Gonna have 1 or 2 more games tomorrow to finalise my tournament list (needs to be submitted by end of the week).
My general idea / favourite right now:
2 BA detachments with Trike, Warboss, 3 Scrapjets, 2-3 KBB, 2 Dragstas, 2 Squigbuggies, 1 Snazzwagon, 2 Wazboms, 3 x Bikes.
Would like to have 2 squads of 5 Bikers for some RND reliability, put it`s really tough to free the last points here...
General idea is to tellyport in the Scrapjets, put 2 Wazboms and Dragstas in reserve for free and use the Bikes, Snazzwagon, Squigbuggies, KBB and 2 HQ`s for preparing screening, securing home objectives and get in some early chip damage. Thought about putting the KBB in reserve as well or instead of the dragstas, but then you don`t get anything out of the burnas until turn 3-4 and they feel like they wanna be midboard early on.
Turn 2 & 3 depend on opponent and mission, but i should be able to get most of the dakka where it hurts and cripple the opponent.
Turn 4-5 cleanup duty, final scoring and play the mission.
That kind of Beta strike army has been really fun and worked a lot better than my Speedmob that went aggressive turn 1 with Koptas and the other stuff on board.
SemperMortis wrote: Holy christ, have you guys seen the new Harlequins army? Their Sniper literally 1 shots all of our characters except Ghaz and beastboss's.
Their heavy support Voidweavers are...ridiculous. They make Chickenwalkers look balanced by comparison.
Shadowseer is 100pts and makes weirdboyz look like trash...well they kind of are trash but still
This is going to shake up the meta boyz. I suggest you get ready to hide characters and such out of LOS of these guys.
I faced some new Eldar - Biel Tan or what - week ago and nothing serious. I won +20p againts experienced opponent (playing his second game with them however).
This is some new eldar stuff you speak about?
Automatically Appended Next Post: What I found interesting today however are the new knights datasheets. Arminger 24attacks 7-1 1?
If something could be bad for the orl SpeedMob, than it ´ s the rise of knights that creates the rise of heavy antitank…
Grotrebel wrote: So i had 3 games total against Tau yesterday and was able to win all 3 of them. All games were against Crisis heavy list with 3 Broadsides.
I slightly changed my BA Speedmob each game and ended up with 5 + 5 + 4 Warbikes but otherwise similar to my last posted BA Speedmob lists.
A few more things i noticed that might help against Tau, mainly if you play Speedmob:
My favourite new tool is tellyporting the 3 Scrapjets! It has done so much damage, is a great allrounder unit and tends to get most of the opponents dakka if they can get their hands an them. I`ve put them in strategic reserve as well before via ive got a plan together with the two Wazboms, put found it too much restricting where they can come in.
Instead i put my Dragstas in strategic reserve and went down from 3 -> 2 in my last two games. It`s really hard to get a spot for 3 of them and unlike the Scrapjets they don`t mind coming in 24" away and just shoot. My Scrapjets want to charge after tellyporting a lot.
KBB are my personal underestimated unit. Their main gun really isn`t that great but at least offers more range, which is a problem sometimes for all our 24" guns. Overall it offers a fantastic package with the spiked ram, the 4 flamers and medium movement. Yesterday they killed a commander that thought he could be sneaky being protected by bodyguard crisis in a ruin behind him, but with ramming speed & chrashing through he got rammed to death faster than he could say Montka.
KBB is also a good unit to hang around midfield, threaten stuff and screen out your other stuff. And they are quite cheap!
I was a big fan of the mono detachment for the extra CP, but right now i`m leaning back towards double detachment.
For one i`m gonna skip Koptas and they were my most CP expensive unit and BA offer a few tools for extra CP.
But having more units felt actually really comfortable for screening, engaging and scoring.
Warbikers are a must have for me. I played Speedmob a LOT the last months and while the buggy heavy lists have some really solid output, you score less and loose good units faster. Especially against Tau those 3 units were pure gold for me.
Little sidenote about scoring: You don`t need to score good - you need to score more than you opponent. While that is kinda obvious it helped me a lot to fokus more on denying the opponents VP. My games yesterday went 60:59, 66:62 and 79:52. (Without battleready bonus)
I was trying very hard to deny RND, used Bikes to prevent banners, sacrificed 2 KBB for a 8 VP swing and so on. 2 of my games i actually went for 4 safe RND points and used my Bikes afterwards just for denying the opponents VP instead for 4 more RND points which in the end was worth it, as they managed to reduce his scoring by more than 4.
Also i rather go for secondaries that might not max out but will give my a few safe VP. No prisoners against Tau is the perfekt example. With proper screening and using his Airburst units good i might score pretty low, but it also has a good chance on spiking and chances of 0 points are pretty low, which can happen for stuff like Good bitz.
My only bad secondary was assassinate on which i scored 0 in my first game and still won.
Oh and not having Koptas is keeping the bring it down score pretty low, especially when 9 of those ~15-16 VP come in from reserve. In my games yesterday the opponent maxed it out just once and i was using some of my vehicles very aggressively.
Overall i think 2 detachments will help a bit more with scoring, while mono detachment will have a little more damage output.
Gonna have 1 or 2 more games tomorrow to finalise my tournament list (needs to be submitted by end of the week).
My general idea / favourite right now:
2 BA detachments with Trike, Warboss, 3 Scrapjets, 2-3 KBB, 2 Dragstas, 2 Squigbuggies, 1 Snazzwagon, 2 Wazboms, 3 x Bikes.
Would like to have 2 squads of 5 Bikers for some RND reliability, put it`s really tough to free the last points here...
General idea is to tellyport in the Scrapjets, put 2 Wazboms and Dragstas in reserve for free and use the Bikes, Snazzwagon, Squigbuggies, KBB and 2 HQ`s for preparing screening, securing home objectives and get in some early chip damage. Thought about putting the KBB in reserve as well or instead of the dragstas, but then you don`t get anything out of the burnas until turn 3-4 and they feel like they wanna be midboard early on.
Turn 2 & 3 depend on opponent and mission, but i should be able to get most of the dakka where it hurts and cripple the opponent.
Turn 4-5 cleanup duty, final scoring and play the mission.
That kind of Beta strike army has been really fun and worked a lot better than my Speedmob that went aggressive turn 1 with Koptas and the other stuff on board.
Good write up dude. My beta stike and enemy objective denial strategy is very similar to yours although I've gone the almost max bike and almost max deffkopta in a mono ES route.
In regards to the new Quin super sniper, it's another reason to only take one character (does the sniper rule work on vehicles btw?)
I'll hold judgement on the knights codex until it's official especially after the "remove Trajan" fake dataslate that raised and dashed my hopes in the space of a few hours. My conspiracy theory is that GW released it to screw with people after the huge nid leak.
The sniper rule works for everything. It just gets to ignore Look out sir. So no character protection against that sniper. And, because Eldar don't follow any normal rules, its incredibly hard to get out of LOS of the damn thing because it can just flip around the battlefield.
Speedmob does not really care about Snipers.
My Warboss is mainly on scoring duty with his build in ObSec and 2 /3 of the last games I simply used him for Stranglehold/ scoring and he almost never lives to see turn 2-3. No relics or traits as well, its just not worth it for me.
The Wartrike is simply there for I've got a plan lads and otherwise its just a bad buggy.
He often uses his 23" boost for scoring and sometimes gives me a few CP with da finkin cap before.
I rather have any other Buggy survive 1 more round.
Had another game yesterday and man it went bad. This time my Tau buddy went for 5 + 5 + 3 + 3 Crisis, 2 x Stealthsuits, 2 x Ghostkeels and the usual HQ's and Kroot support.
He felt really bad for me because this must have been the worst I ever rolled with my shooting and after I killed a whole 2 Drones, 8 Kroot and barely 1 Ghostkeel turn 1 and 2 it was game over for me.
Lost 100:54 but still my Orks have a solid winrate against Tau with 8:4.
Those Ghostkeels and Stealth Suits are really tough to shift for orks, especially if there is dense cover as well and everything besides the Wazboms hits on a 6.
@CaptainO: Yeah I think the beta Strike is the way to go unless you face something where you can deploy everything safely even if you go second.
And yes, Warbikers are pure gold. I tried 5 + 5 + 3 yesterday to have the points for 2 Wazboms, 3 Scrapjets, 3 KBB, 2 Dragstas, 2 Squigbuggies and 1 Snazzwagon. But afterwards I definitely had preferred more bikes.
So I guess my tournament list will go back to 2 KBB and 3 x 5 Bikes instead again.^^
ES are definitely the way to go if you want to play Kopta heavy and I like that list a lot as well.
But right now using them feels to restricting for me and a am pretty confident about playing the BA Speedmob who had a lot more practice games.
ES are for sure the better take if you want to plan for TTL but I had a few really bad games with TTL and Speedmob. Depends heavily on the opponent of course but I think the top tier armies right now are all capable of denying TTL points.
Have you guys had more success with TTL in Speedmob?
Secondaries is still my biggest problem, especially in Missions with 6 objectives and against armies that don't five up a lot of killing secondaries.
Tau is ok with no prisoners but Custodes is really breaking my head.
It's definitely possible to score 6 VP on No prisoners if you can kill enough bikes and a bit of infantry, but it's near impossible to score 10+ here...
About the Knight stuff I wouldn't worry to much, I think that's fake like the "balance sheet" recently.
I doubt Knights will become that big of a problem as it gives away good Primaries and does not score that well.
I think Speedmob will loose models in the trading game but will still score better.
I'm more afraid of nids right now, as they are good in scoring and it looks like even the small stuff will become good in taking out Speedmob units fast.
kingbbobb wrote: Question would you consider FIGHT DETECTA an aura ability?
If it doesn't say (Aura) it's not an aura. While that is super inconsistent across codices and abilities, any other interpretation would break the game.
I have very good experience with TTL and ES Speedmob. Mostly 15. Two koptas and 3 squigbuggies.
The other secondaries I use are following:
1. Engage (sometimes Stranglehold, in very wide deploy and slow opponent army Behind occasionaly too). Mostly something about 8-12VP
2. Bitz / Homers. Depend on the opponent or mission. But the ultimate plan is go for 3x8warbikers and simply do the Data. I just need the time to do another bikers.
Custodes - well, in my experience, you need the secondaries that scores outside the objective and without killing opponent. TTL. Engage, Data are the best. “Just” kill the bikers and run away and score.
Automatically Appended Next Post: After pretty boring CI from the last week, there is pretty interesting new issue. Full article here:
Big Mek in Mega Armour [7 PL, -1CP, 125pts]: Extra-Kustom Weapon [1 PL, 10pts], Kustom Force Field [30pts], Kustom Mega-Blasta, Opportunist (Deathskullz), Power Klaw, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP]
Warboss in Mega Armour [6 PL, 115pts]: ‘Uge Choppa, 3. ‘Ard as Nails, Big Shoota, Da Krushin’ Armour, Warlord
Warboss [5 PL, -2CP, 105pts]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Attack Squig [5pts], Da Killa Klaw, Kombi-skorcha, Power Klaw [10pts], 2x Slugga, Stikkbombs, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP]
+ Troops [5 PL, 100pts] +
Boyz [5 PL, 100pts]: Trukk Boyz
. Boss Nob [19pts]: Choppa, Power Klaw [10pts], Stikkbombs
. 9x Ork Boy w/ Slugga & Choppa [81pts]: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga, 9x Stikkbombs
Meganobz [12 PL, 160pts]
. Boss Meganob: Kombi-skorcha, Power Klaw
. Meganob: Kombi-skorcha, Power Klaw
. Meganob: Kombi-skorcha, Power Klaw
. Meganob: Kombi-skorcha, Power Klaw
tulun wrote: Some of those "GTs" were as small as 39 people.
I'd take some of that data with a grain of "Light Salt".
Well, they're basically the same archetypes that we're playing since months, I don't really see anything new in these lists. Also, their placements don't look unreasonable to achieve.
kingbbobb wrote: Question
would you consider FIGHT DETECTA an aura ability?
If it doesn't say (Aura) it's not an aura. While that is super inconsistent across codices and abilities, any other interpretation would break the game.
So you would view speed king as NOT being an Aura ability either?
It doesn't say (Aura)
Yes, because there is no real guidance to what is an aura and what is not - no matter how you interpret the BRB definition for aura you find rules contradicting that interpretation.
Because GW has been so sloppy with applying (Aura) especially to relics and warlord traits, it's not longer possible to guess any intention behind it either.
If you start making all abilities aura that have a range and affect multiple models in an area, not only do you not have any rules to support that, but you also run into weird edge cases, so the only real option is to play this by the book.
Of course, as always, clarifying this with a TO or opponent before the game is the superior option.
tulun wrote: Some of those "GTs" were as small as 39 people.
I'd take some of that data with a grain of "Light Salt".
Well, they're basically the same archetypes that we're playing since months, I don't really see anything new in these lists. Also, their placements don't look unreasonable to achieve.
Well, I don' t want to be ugly to anybody, but for the most of the people such placements are hard to achieve. Inclunding me for example
And I don' t agree either with “nothing new”. There is definitely no new “direction to go” but if you make a stat month by month, you see a developement in the list builds. Examples:
In last period of ork rules (since nerf bat + nachmud speed mob November 21) there are two builds that are common. Speed Mob and something called goff presure list, ehich is actually prety wild and wide groupe of lists.
Speed Mob is developing. On begining, everybody played ES koptas. A lot of koptas. And freebootas were called death. And a lot of people was afraid to play Attakc out of da Sun RAW. Now, there is obvious tendence to play AOODS RAW without hesitation and play just one (or none) squads of Koptas. And more small squads of buggies. This mean also a decline of TTL designed lists. And Freebootas are rising. That is a fresh new situation from last month or something.
Goff preasure list used to be based on Killrigs and Boyz. Or BSBoyz. Now, no killrigs at all but a lot of MANz.
Deathskull MANz list or Blood Axe goulash list from CI are definitely not something we saw in last few months. That is a new variation.
And last but not least - I want to see (and show) how orks stands in todays meta. One CI is not a stat but if you filtre down my posts, you see a stat. And what you see is, that pro-players quited the orks, but despite this fact, we are still able to score high. Just the core ork players plays the orks, so the stat is little bit wild, but we can score.
For me it is importat. If I see some Rich Kiltone is able to be 4th on aprox. 40 people tournament in Utah with Orks, where the comunity is much stronger than here in Prague, I see I should play harder. I cannot excuse my results by a “bad GW that is ugly to orks”. Or I shall stick to my plan win the painting competition
.. and I can be ugly to guys moaning about how orks are beaten, beacuse thanks to that I see, that we can place pretty well just from the core-ork players base.
CI is the best we have. Their Ork-lists analysis are crazy but they know the other armies well. And you see the stats. You see, what the meta is. And if there is CI full of Tau /Eldar / Custodes = crazy new codexes + orks after all nerfs without Mani Cheemas and such dudes. Well, this is cool.
Goff list and orks would have been fine in this meta without the point hikes to Killrig, kommandos, squigboss… they really weren’t that over priced and it made a more varied ork list.. the buggy points hike would have been fine even without the 1 unit limit to buggies or at worst a 3 model limit…
gungo wrote: Goff list and orks would have been fine in this meta without the point hikes to Killrig, kommandos, squigboss… they really weren’t that over priced and it made a more varied ork list.. the buggy points hike would have been fine even without the 1 unit limit to buggies or at worst a 3 model limit…
Buggies - the option to split the buggies will be very cool. And potentialy strong. Big weakness of the Speed Mob is low unit count - screening, hiding, scoring engage etc. - and generaly - moving large squads of buggies is pain. In fact you criple them a lot. Even with some advance, if you want to move squad of 3 scrapjets, the last one on the end of the squad goes around the ruins totaly crazy way, so he' s pretty much behind the corner. Squads of 2 are fine. But squad of 3 is pain. Plus of course, big squads = very good damage distribution for your opponents fire. Before the masive overkilling of single buggy was a great way how to protect your buggies. Not anymore.
This is btw. one of the big pros the WARBIKERS have. All the D3+3 shots are more or less wasted on 3W models. The same with D2 weapons. And -1 to hit is definitely better protection than T5->T6 and the rest is the same. I skip Ramshackle because I don't even remember, when I used it the last time…. Everybody use S8+ weapons or D1 weapons. All this for 70% price per wound. That is the reason why they are a real survival monkeys.
gungo wrote: Goff list and orks would have been fine in this meta without the point hikes to Killrig, kommandos, squigboss… they really weren’t that over priced and it made a more varied ork list.. the buggy points hike would have been fine even without the 1 unit limit to buggies or at worst a 3 model limit…
I'll just politely point out that The squigbuggy is now 110pts because it averaged 3dmg a turn to Space Marines or 4dmg at half range (regular launcha range).
The Harlies have 90pt voidweavers which have a Heavy 2 S12 AP-4 2D3dmg gun AND a secondary firing mode of 3D3 shots at S5 -3 1dmg AND they also get 2 more guns which are Heavy 3 S6 -1 2dmg. Its T5 but its also -1 to hit, no re-rolls to hit and a 4+ invuln Oh! and its movement 16 so it can very easily just drive around LOS blocking terrain with its 36 and 24' guns.
My honest opinion is that too many meta players get butt hurt when Orkz do well and therefore cry about how there once easy matchups are now hard and therefore GW listens to them and nerfs our competitive options.
Oh I agree the freak out at socal for that 1 ork major win was a completely overblown response by the competitive 40K community.
The funny part is killrigs all but disappeared on the competitive tables, squigboss is rare and kommandos are usually a min squad or 2. All the chapter approved did for orks was reduce variety of units on the competitive scene for orks (except meganobs which are a little more prevalent). Orks got crushed though we quickly dropped from S tier to B tier…with the multiple back to back nerfs. Not saying orks are bad but it’s a far cry from the measure and obviously much weaker response the playtesting community gave drukari.
Got my first game coming up next week against the new tau, any advice would be welcome, still quite new to Orks. It’s borkan sept, but no stormsurge for definite.
I’ve got a kill rig, bone breaker, two wazboms, some Trukks and half a dozen buggies as well as a handful of war bikes and koptas. Plenty of infantry too.
Alright Boyz, finished the GT this evening and WOOHOOO Boy did I get my butt spanked!
Game 1: Orkz Vs Custodes (META)
Surprisingly close. Lost 61 to 91 (he finished 3rd Overall)
Game started with him winning the toss and gutting just an insane amount of my army. However, my Warbosses staged a daring come back and were able to force him back for a bit, killing trajann and his other 2 characters. Game ended with me literally only having 2 trukkz left on the board.
Game 2: Orkz Vs Imperial Guard
Unsurprisingly one sided. The Alphork strike list worked like it was supposed to...didn't hurt that this was also the only game I got 1st turn. At the top of turn 1 the game was functionally over. I slow played it to turn 5 to get as many secondaries as I could. WIN: 100 to 39.
Game 3: Orkz Vs Blood Angels
Surprisingly fun game! long deployment so it started incredibly slow for what amounts to 2 CC armies. He overplayed his death company when taking out a unit of bikers and my warboss on bike was able to teach him why that was a bad decision. It went back and forth a bit but in the end the Orkz just about tabled him at the end of turn 4.
WIN: 97 to 53.
Game 4: Orkz Vs Crusher Stampede (Meta)
A great example of how underpowered Orkz are. This matchup was relatively close for the most part, at the very end of our game i was almost entirely tabled while he still had a unit of warriors, 1 big gribbly beast and a swarm of venomthropes or whatever those things are alive. Crusher Stampede giving -1dmg to all its big beasts is just too much for my Alphork strike list to handle, not to mention all the additional psychic powers which hand out durability buffs like a 4+ invuln or 5+ FNP which we have to take a relic for or literally don't have access to The only heavy hitter for me was the warboss on warbike who managed to down 1 big beast before dying spectacularly. 3D weapons are a MUST against these guys, and shooting doesn't help much since almost their entire list is -1 to hit. LOSS: 46 to 60.
Game 5: Orkz Vs Custodes (Meta)
Another wonderful example of orkz needing some more dmg output. This was a ridiculously fun game and it was a LOT closer than the scoresheet makes it look, but that might also be because Orkz also suck at scoring points against these top tier lists. Turn 1 he overplayed his jet bikes while wiping out most of a kommando squad, a pair of mek gunz, and a unit of warbikes. On my turn I counter attacked and killed 5 out of 6 of them, I also completely neutered his telemon, bringing him down to his lowest bracket. In the end, he had his banner bearer a unit of axes and a mauled unit of swords and that was it, I was down to a mek gun. Massive LOSS: 17 to 97
Overall the biggest takeaways I got from this event was that Alphork strike gives up too many secondaries to Bring it down, we struggle to get secondaries, we have no staying power and that overall our dmg output is far to little to make an impression against the top lists.
Top 8 to really show how stupid the meta is right now
1: Tau
2: Eldar
3: Custards
4: Harlies
5: Drukhari
6: Eldar
7: Harlies
8: Slaanesh (Surprising)
Ohh and this is the next 8
9: Custards
10: Custards
11: Tau
12: Eldar
13: Custards
14: Crusher Stampede
15: Tau
16: Eldar
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a side note to all competitive players, if you are taking shooting orkz to competitive tournaments...you are screwed.
Every single Custards player was running the banner bearer which gives a bubble of -1 to hit because of how OP tau are, this effectively neuters your ranged dmg output to 50%, and since the units are both tiny and ridiculously durable, you are going to struggle to proc Freeboota until its almost useless.
This is the main issue with alpha ork.. you benefit most from going first and even then you may not have enough damage to win but s are at least you get to dictate engagement and lock units in combat..
Speed mob is our strongest list currently after all the nerfs but it’s still not durable enough. The meta will shift shortly after adepticon as Gw is going to make another major quarterly update based on the results from adepticon. Custodes and harlies seems easier to fix then tau and eldar, both of which thier codexs are loaded with strong cia me options.
Yeah, there's a lot of calls to roll back some of the nerfs implemented on the earlier codices in light of the new army dominating the meta. I would agree with maybe some of them (i.e. the buggy limitation) and I assume we'll be getting some points adjustments alongside that. Given that we're a datasheet army atm, we really do live or die on point changes unfortunately. Ideally, GW would actually give a look at army rules that effectively don't do anything at the moment (i.e. Mob Rule) and update datasheets like Nob Bikerz to be line with Warbikers and Kannonwagons to have the Wagon rule.
Right now, I feel like the only things that consistently hit hard enough against the current hot meta units are our HQ's. While I'm not entirely against hero-hammer, it does suck when most of our army hit like wet noodles after you start throwing in negative modifiers and transhuman style abilities and can't contribute nearly as much.
I really don’t like the buggy limit. It’s a very heavy handed and poor balance mechanic. It’s was directly tied to the massive freak out at socal. And my biggest concern is it ruins kustom jobs not just efficiency or ease of use.
The points hike alone was enough to deter squigbuggy spam and to a degree scrapjet spam. But regardless I don’t expect any ork changes til 10th edition now. Like we all.. we are in the relatively dumpster fire of B tier not good enough to win a major or grand tournament and not bad enough to get a boost like guard need.
The Nerf was aimed not only to buggies, but also to the planes. And that was much more crucial imho. Buggies were OK - scroll back and check the Sempers Squigbuggy damage output stat. Nothing to write home about.
What sucked - also on socal - was the plane issue. First because you was able to screen the buggies againts charge by the bases of the planes and second, you could easily field 6 jets and go to the opponents deploy and shoot him off T1 without any chance for protection. Not only orks did this - admech too - but this was the most effective part of the nerf. And pretty good part imho.
Limit the buggies to one unit per army was not necessary and is pretty stupid imho.
Tomsug wrote: The Nerf was aimed not only to buggies, but also to the planes. And that was much more crucial imho. Buggies were OK - scroll back and check the Sempers Squigbuggy damage output stat. Nothing to write home about.
What sucked - also on socal - was the plane issue. First because you was able to screen the buggies againts charge by the bases of the planes and second, you could easily field 6 jets and go to the opponents deploy and shoot him off T1 without any chance for protection. Not only orks did this - admech too - but this was the most effective part of the nerf. And pretty good part imho.
Limit the buggies to one unit per army was not necessary and is pretty stupid imho.
Yeah, the flyer spam was really the more egregious part of the army that made it dumb to play against, since you couldn't hide against them either T1 even behind obscuring. Sadly, GW rarely uses nuance when it comes to rules and balancing changes, specially for us greenie ladz :(
I'm about to go into a semi-competitive game with a friend where we're both trying non-conventional type lists that don't usually see play. I've already done Dred Mob with him, so I'm going to try out how bad an attempt at Green Tide might look like. I'm assuming that Goffs will probably be the best klan to go for? I'm going to likely take Ghazzy in that case, alongside a Warboss on Warbike (maybe with Zagstruk) with Da Killa Klaw for HQ's, a Weirdboy with Da Jump and Warpath, as well as a KFF Mega Mek. I'm debating if a Painboy is even worth taking in this case. I'm also presuming KMK support in the backfield. I presume besides Kommandos and Stormboyz, is there anything else that would go well with a Green Tide themed list?
gungo wrote: This is the main issue with alpha ork.. you benefit most from going first and even then you may not have enough damage to win but s are at least you get to dictate engagement and lock units in combat..
Speed mob is our strongest list currently after all the nerfs but it’s still not durable enough. The meta will shift shortly after adepticon as Gw is going to make another major quarterly update based on the results from adepticon. Custodes and harlies seems easier to fix then tau and eldar, both of which thier codexs are loaded with strong cia me options.
To be completely blunt, against those top tier lists, a Speed mob would do even worse. Every custodes list I ran into was running a -1 to hit banner, the Harlies all have native -1 to hit with light, Nidz have the same thing. I didn't get a chance to play against Tau but I can only imagine how bad that matchup would be. Point being that I really just don't think the Ork codex has the arsenal anymore to compete at the top tables against net lists. And that isn't even touching on the transhuman spam nor the -1dmg and -1 to wound that seems incredibly prevalent now.
I disagree. At least against Tau Speedmob is the better take for sure.
Custodes are still ok, i have two regulars that play them a lot and their low unit count helps a lot with scoring.
While Custodes themselves are reasonable good in scoring our Speedmob shooting can still waste them in combination with the mortal wounds.
Especially in the new Harlies meta where we will see a lot more Shadowkeepers that Emperors Chosen which is the better matchup for us.
Speedmob can easily wipe 1-2 squads bikes a turn even with the banner and after that drive around the infantry and score around them.
Not sure about Harlies themselves, have only played against the new CWE so far.
I think Alphork and Speedmob have similar chances against them. (So, pretty bad like all other armies rn. )
But i think Orks might have a chance through sheer volume, after all it`s just a few T3 dudes with a 4+ plus some paperplanes if you start to get hits in.
Might be the right time to get those burnas and Skorchas back in business.
gungo wrote: This is the main issue with alpha ork.. you benefit most from going first and even then you may not have enough damage to win but s are at least you get to dictate engagement and lock units in combat..
Speed mob is our strongest list currently after all the nerfs but it’s still not durable enough. The meta will shift shortly after adepticon as Gw is going to make another major quarterly update based on the results from adepticon. Custodes and harlies seems easier to fix then tau and eldar, both of which thier codexs are loaded with strong cia me options.
To be completely blunt, against those top tier lists, a Speed mob would do even worse. Every custodes list I ran into was running a -1 to hit banner, the Harlies all have native -1 to hit with light, Nidz have the same thing. I didn't get a chance to play against Tau but I can only imagine how bad that matchup would be. Point being that I really just don't think the Ork codex has the arsenal anymore to compete at the top tables against net lists. And that isn't even touching on the transhuman spam nor the -1dmg and -1 to wound that seems incredibly prevalent now.
Yeah, about the only thing a speed mob has over an Alphork list is mortal wound spam from Crashing Through and other vehicles having it baseline like Scrapjets and KBB, and some deffkopta shenanigans with Attack Outta Da Sun, but most of the top lists are maneuvrable enough that you wouldn't have the chance to get more than one charge off through ramming speed, after which you're exposed in the open and wiped out with extreme prejudice.
SemperMortis wrote: Point being that I really just don't think the Ork codex has the arsenal anymore to compete at the top tables against net lists.
1. Not absolute true, see the results around, but…
2. …on the standard level you are absolutely right. But it' s not about ork codex, but about meta codexes. See the tournaments around the world. 5 armies on top. Like top 15 on every tournament is the same exactly like on your tournament? Rarely something else? I ' ve never seen anything like thag. How many armies is in w40? 30? How many of them can really score? 5 in top tier, 5 in B-team (incl orks) and the rest is in the trash tier except IG, they are in their own hell.
I mean speedmob is doing better then most ork lists competitively… I’m not saying it’s going to win you a tournament anymore. But it still plays well into crushing stampede and custodes… you are correct crashing through is a big reason speedmob does well but buggies are still are one if not the strongest units and tacking on 5+ invul to them helped… you are right though speed mob is still losing and orks have a 44-46% win rate right now. We will see what Gw does during the next quarterly update this month to tau and eldar…
Everybody has a win rate under 50%. The Custodes and Tau are screwed.
Speed Mob won a GT 3 weeks ago, scroll back my posts.
-1 to hit an mass is definitely very bad for speedmob. That is the reason why people call back to servis so many KBBs and started using Freebota again for the wazbooms.
Because if you start ignoring Custodes as a broken meta short-life affair, than you need to deal with all kind of T3-T4 models and some latge bugs. Plus you can have a plan to score secondaries. That works. You have to be significantly better player than the opponent to do it however. Definitely not balanced.
Custodes generally run 4+ FNP against Mortal wounds, Crusher stampede has native -1dmg on all its big bugs. The shooting from a buggy list is mostly going to bounce off, and crashing through, while good, at best yields a 50/50 for mortals against Custodes and against the bugs, they routinely put a bug forward who has to be dealt with and who is buffed to all hell with durability buffs like 4+ invuln, 5+ FNP and -1dmg.
The power creep went up a notch for sure. It will be interesting to see how GW addressees that in regards to ork prices. Honestly, I just don't see a fix without changing rules because our durability is so low that just bringing a few more models won't do much.
So ill be attending a GT this weekend with a list that can be either alpha or beta strike. I guess it depends on whether i get turn 1 or turn 2 and what i face.
The list runs: Goffs, 7CP 1 Ghaz 1 warboss on warbike with da killa klaw and BBK 2x10 trukkboyz 2x10 Kommandos 3x10 stormboyz 3x3 deffkoptas 2x trukks 2x10 grots 3x1 Mek Gunz
This list isnt the pinnacle of ork competitiveness, yet it still has good elements in it. I have not run this list with ghaz before, and i had to sacrifice 10 kommandos to get him which im a bit annoyed with but it is what it is. I dont know if it will end up being a good or bad result because of it, but i missed using ghaz so i wanted to have him with me, and i hope he can do me some kind of good against custodians and Tau which i fear ill see a decent amount of.
Beardedragon wrote: So ill be attending a GT this weekend with a list that can be either alpha or beta strike. I guess it depends on whether i get turn 1 or turn 2 and what i face.
The list runs:
Goffs, 7CP
1 Ghaz
1 warboss on warbike with da killa klaw and BBK 2x10 trukkboyz
2x10 Kommandos
3x10 stormboyz
3x3 deffkoptas
2x trukks
2x10 grots
3x1 Mek Gunz
This list isnt the pinnacle of ork competitiveness, yet it still has good elements in it. I have not run this list with ghaz before, and i had to sacrifice 10 kommandos to get him which im a bit annoyed with but it is what it is. I dont know if it will end up being a good or bad result because of it, but i missed using ghaz so i wanted to have him with me, and i hope he can do me some kind of good against custodians and Tau which i fear ill see a decent amount of.
Out of curiosity, any reason why you dont just drop the grots for the kommandos you had to drop for Ghaz? Looks like you have the mandatory troops covered already with trukkboyz, and mek Gunz already cover the backfield well enough as is.
Beardedragon wrote: So ill be attending a GT this weekend with a list that can be either alpha or beta strike. I guess it depends on whether i get turn 1 or turn 2 and what i face.
The list runs: Goffs, 7CP 1 Ghaz 1 warboss on warbike with da killa klaw and BBK 2x10 trukkboyz 2x10 Kommandos 3x10 stormboyz 3x3 deffkoptas 2x trukks 2x10 grots 3x1 Mek Gunz
This list isnt the pinnacle of ork competitiveness, yet it still has good elements in it. I have not run this list with ghaz before, and i had to sacrifice 10 kommandos to get him which im a bit annoyed with but it is what it is. I dont know if it will end up being a good or bad result because of it, but i missed using ghaz so i wanted to have him with me, and i hope he can do me some kind of good against custodians and Tau which i fear ill see a decent amount of.
Out of curiosity, any reason why you dont just drop the grots for the kommandos you had to drop for Ghaz? Looks like you have the mandatory troops covered already with trukkboyz, and mek Gunz already cover the backfield well enough as is.
because grots are 100 points and i needed 125 points total (10 barebone kommandos and a powerklaw nob). I dont have any where else i can drop points except starting to remove stormboyz. To be fair i would rather remove 10 stormboyz than 10 kommandos, but even that would leave a difference of 15 points i would have to get somewhere else. Either from turning all 3 mek gunz to Smasha gunz instead of Kustom mega kannons, or remove 2 models from kommandos or stormboyz.
The reason i like my grots is that they can hold the backline while hiding so that i can shoot freely from the backline with my Mek Gunz. I dont need to hide my Mek Gunz then if the grots are hiding and holding the objective. Thus i can focus more on positioning.
If Mek gunz were the only thing holding the backline then it would be too easy for the enemy to remove my backline. Also grots help screen out any potential deepstrikes. Because the moment my army pushes forward im basically leaving behind the backline, and through clever positioning i can maybe push his deepstrikes all the way up to his own deployment zone. Im not a fan of keeping 3 mek gunz as the only thing behind. Also grots can do actions in case i have to do that. whether its secondary actions or primary ones.
Edit: Im trying to make a new kind of alpha strike/beta strike esque army like what i have right now (with or without ghaz) but also without Kommandos. Because Kommandos are pretty fething useless in that one battle map where you cant forward deploy. I dont know why GW thought making such a stage was a good idea but what ever. Because of it, and it turns up at GTs rather often, then it would just be 30 kommandos i have that are useless. So I think it would be wise to maybe make a different type of army that doesnt have kommandos in them. currently im unsure what that looks like, but yea.
To be completely blunt, against those top tier lists, a Speed mob would do even worse. Every custodes list I ran into was running a -1 to hit banner, the Harlies all have native -1 to hit with light, Nidz have the same thing. I didn't get a chance to play against Tau but I can only imagine how bad that matchup would be. Point being that I really just don't think the Ork codex has the arsenal anymore to compete at the top tables against net lists. And that isn't even touching on the transhuman spam nor the -1dmg and -1 to wound that seems incredibly prevalent now.
Just wondering, how the nids also have the army wide -1 to hit ?
There is a warlord trait for that, but only in melee and around the warlord. Is there something else ?!
To be completely blunt, against those top tier lists, a Speed mob would do even worse. Every custodes list I ran into was running a -1 to hit banner, the Harlies all have native -1 to hit with light, Nidz have the same thing. I didn't get a chance to play against Tau but I can only imagine how bad that matchup would be. Point being that I really just don't think the Ork codex has the arsenal anymore to compete at the top tables against net lists. And that isn't even touching on the transhuman spam nor the -1dmg and -1 to wound that seems incredibly prevalent now.
Just wondering, how the nids also have the army wide -1 to hit ?
There is a warlord trait for that, but only in melee and around the warlord. Is there something else ?!
Venomthropes, though they're not very common in crusher lists.
SemperMortis wrote: Custodes generally run 4+ FNP against Mortal wounds, Crusher stampede has native -1dmg on all its big bugs. The shooting from a buggy list is mostly going to bounce off, and crashing through, while good, at best yields a 50/50 for mortals against Custodes and against the bugs, they routinely put a bug forward who has to be dealt with and who is buffed to all hell with durability buffs like 4+ invuln, 5+ FNP and -1dmg.
The power creep went up a notch for sure. It will be interesting to see how GW addressees that in regards to ork prices. Honestly, I just don't see a fix without changing rules because our durability is so low that just bringing a few more models won't do much.
I think that from the game design point of view it is ok to have some army - like custodes for example - that is simply bloody hard to kill and they are slow and masacre anyone in CC. And it' s ok if such a army has some speedy guys or some good shooting.
It makes you to be ready to more types of the game. If you just repeat one sequence of moves to win, it is wrong. Such army makes the opponent to have a more battle plans in the pocket regarding the opponent. You simply find the way how to score around and try to avoidem to fight them. The oposite are the drukhari now. You can kill them easily, but they have so many cheap units to score around. It is much more complex task to win than just kill them all. You have to kill them all in the right sequence the right way. Or they die but score higher.
But have hard and cc deadly army is in the same time a bloody fast and has such bloody shooting… it is a lot. Just pimp the price of vertus jetbikes like to 100+ points and game will be fine. I 've beated 2x3 vertus lists with the speed mob. It was hard, but it could work. Exactly the way described above - play a tie on primaries and do engage, bitz, ttl, data etc. around. But 3 squads of jetbikes + shooting and melee dreadnoughts that can HI 6” ? Pffffff
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yes - as you write in your nice report from your GT - the problem is also the scoring. If some armies have an easy ways ro score secondaries and some simply don' t… and in the same time these in any list have to give the opponent another easy secondary. That it' s pretty bad.
I 'm pretty disappointed by the ork codex secondaries. They are simply unplayable. It is the waste of the paper to print them. This cripple the balance a lot.
And generaly - it is ok for me, if it' s hard to kill someone. What is worst - like tau now or our flyer or smashgun spam before - if you simply can' t protect and if the opponent goes his first turn, he simply deletes half of your army.
It' s like in 8th - I faced some dude with 3-4 Landrides that shoot a lot and were hard to kill and do the scrwen and huge batery of thunderfire cannons and whirlwinds with some crazy buffs in the backfield shooting anywhere on the field like a hell. On the open field of the 8th edition.
New Competitive Innovations are out and there are just 2 notes important regarding the Waaagh!
“…Our own Falcon has put together the stats from this weekend, and they make for grim reading. Excluding mirror matches, Harlequins hit a 77.9% win rate, “Aeldari” 65.1%, Craftworlds 61.7%. That’s high anyway, but they’ve also pushed down T’au Empire and Adeptus Custodes, who sit at 58.7% and 57.2% respectively – both factions were sitting comfortably around 60-65% before, and spiking up to as high as the 70% range on good weekends. The only other factions with positive win rates from this weekend are Chaos and Chaos Daemons (both with a small number of games), and Crusher Stampede Tyranids, plus GSC and Ad Mech sitting on 50% exactly – everything else is sub-50%, and even Drukhari have slipped into a negative win rate for the first time since their codex last year. Even worse, Adepta Sororitas (28.6%) and Astra Militarum (20.4%) have slipped down to the 20-29% bracket, as have a number of Space Marine Chapters…
…. What this means is that we’re looking at a meta even more oppressive than last year’s. Drukhari hit some stunning heights, but at the point that we had Ad Mech and Orks in there as well all three factions hovered between 55% and 65% – too high, but not this high.
….”
I was thinking of putting together a Dread skew list (and likely proxy to start) as my first Ork list. Definitely not meta, but I was thinking:
Deathskulls Spearhead 2k
One of the Speedwah HQs (Warboss on Warbike?)
Kommandos 10x(Distraction Grot, Breacha, specialist sneaky gitz?)
Meganobs 4x (kombis? killsaws? no idea)
3 units of 5-ork Killa Kanz (no upgrades?)
2 units of 3-ork Def Dreads (Klaw and 3x Kustom Mega Blaster)
1 unit of 3-ork Def Dreads (4x Rokkits)
I am not terribly familiar with the Ork meta and new codex, but kustom jobs changed I think since Battlescribe isn't letting me take it on the 3-ork squads of Dreads anymore. So I've got a few points but I really don't have space to add much without losing something.
Obviously skewed toward 'heavy' armor, but I am not sure if 2 units of objective secured is enough. Maybe 2 MSU of Stormboys instead of Kommandos? That might leave enough points/force org for a Mek... I'd like to keep the Meganobs for the decent save...
Deathskulls seems really good for the Deff Dreads, since they each get a reroll (dread mob) on hit or wound, and have a 5+++ for the mortals on the KMBs. And real good for a Spearhead since any infantry get Ob Sec.
Kaied wrote: I was thinking of putting together a Dread skew list (and likely proxy to start) as my first Ork list. Definitely not meta, but I was thinking:
Deathskulls Spearhead 2k
One of the Speedwah HQs (Warboss on Warbike?)
Kommandos 10x(Distraction Grot, Breacha, specialist sneaky gitz?)
Meganobs 4x (kombis? killsaws? no idea)
3 units of 5-ork Killa Kanz (no upgrades?)
2 units of 3-ork Def Dreads (Klaw and 3x Kustom Mega Blaster)
1 unit of 3-ork Def Dreads (4x Rokkits)
I am not terribly familiar with the Ork meta and new codex, but kustom jobs changed I think since Battlescribe isn't letting me take it on the 3-ork squads of Dreads anymore. So I've got a few points but I really don't have space to add much without losing something.
Obviously skewed toward 'heavy' armor, but I am not sure if 2 units of objective secured is enough. Maybe 2 MSU of Stormboys instead of Kommandos? That might leave enough points/force org for a Mek... I'd like to keep the Meganobs for the decent save...
Deathskulls seems really good for the Deff Dreads, since they each get a reroll (dread mob) on hit or wound, and have a 5+++ for the mortals on the KMBs. And real good for a Spearhead since any infantry get Ob Sec.
I hope the WALKERS will be new ork meta next time. Or next time next time… So it' s great time it start it now to be ready with painting in time. I 'm already hoarding the plastic
Good option are difinitely the Mega Dreads now. Their charging ability in combination with the Ramming speed gives you 4D6 charge, discard one lowest. 12” almost guaranteed. And than just bunch od D3+3 attacks and bunch of autohitting A12” and 5/0/1 Boombits. That is the combination that can do something.
Generaly walkers are slow. That is their main issue. They can do the dammage but they suffer to get there. But they have some staying power, which is cool.
Takeing Meganobz seems to me like a redundancy to the walkers. I can imagine take a large number of Killa Kans, Deff dreads and 2 Mega Dreads, support them with some Nob with Waaagh banner to get +1 to hit and as a fast moving support propably some Warbikers or Squighog boyz. Don' t bother with Kommandos or Stormboyz in such list. Oversaturate the enemy fire with one type of the target. Squigriders or warbikers do the job. You will have no obsec. That' s a pitty, but what? We' re building the future meta army
Or take Freebootas to get +1 to hit in any phase and give your warboss on warbike a Badskull banner to switch the enemy obsec on the right places.
If the Kans and Deff Dreads get the CORE keyword, they would be great with ghazzy. You can pimp the Kans to about 4 attacks hitting on 3 and 9/-3/3 and shoot 12” with the flamer 5/-2/-1 and Advance + Charge. It' s a pitty they cannot benfit from Goff culture. That would be SOME beta charge army.
And Yeah, Vehicle Kustom Job are only available for units of 1 model only.
A unit of 3 dreads can't have Kustom job.
Watch out the low LD on kans. You can take them in unit of 3 to mitigate the risk though you'll lose the +1attack bonus easily, or give the Trait +1Ld Aura on the banner nob behind them
Warboss on Warbike [6 PL, 115pts, -1CP]: Da Badskull Banner (Freebooterz), Killa Reputation (Freebooterz), Power Klaw, Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz, Warlord
+ Elites +
Nob with Waaagh! Banner [4 PL, 70pts, -1CP]: 1. Follow Me, Ladz!, Stratagem: Big Boss, Super Cybork Body
+ Fast Attack +
Warbikers [8 PL, 105pts] . Boss Nob: Big Choppa
. 3x Warbiker w/ Choppa: 3x Choppa, 6x Dakkagun
Warbikers [8 PL, 105pts] . Boss Nob: Big Choppa
. 3x Warbiker w/ Choppa: 3x Choppa, 6x Dakkagun
Watch out the low LD on kans. You can take them in unit of 3 to mitigate the risk though you'll lose the +1arrack bonus easily, or give the Trait +1Ld Aura on the banner nob behind them
Or you can take a single 5-6 kan squad in tellyporta and ramming speed it. I like running one or two squads of three models.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tomsug wrote: Yeah! Good idea! Something like this could be really nice!
Warboss on Warbike [6 PL, 115pts, -1CP]: Da Badskull Banner (Freebooterz), Killa Reputation (Freebooterz), Power Klaw, Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz, Warlord
+ Elites +
Nob with Waaagh! Banner [4 PL, 70pts, -1CP]: 1. Follow Me, Ladz!, Stratagem: Big Boss, Super Cybork Body
+ Fast Attack +
Warbikers [8 PL, 105pts] . Boss Nob: Big Choppa
. 3x Warbiker w/ Choppa: 3x Choppa, 6x Dakkagun
Warbikers [8 PL, 105pts] . Boss Nob: Big Choppa
. 3x Warbiker w/ Choppa: 3x Choppa, 6x Dakkagun
Certainly a cool concept, but I'd love walkers to be great also in small numbers in lists with a wide variety of units, not just exclusively good if taken in some sort of AoR style lists.
For the Banner Nob, I mean "Inspiring Leader " Trait. ( I suppose the "Follow me ladz" is a typo ?)
Yeah, for Tellyporta unit, no need for Ld bonus as they will hit the lines before getting shot at.
But a mob of 5-6 kans is too much, you'll never find a spot to place them. Placing 2 deffdreads in opponent DZ is already difficult, and Kanz' bases are same size as Deffdread's :(
Watch out the low LD on kans. You can take them in unit of 3 to mitigate the risk though you'll lose the +1arrack bonus easily, or give the Trait +1Ld Aura on the banner nob behind them
Or you can take a single 5-6 kan squad in tellyporta and ramming speed it. I like running one or two squads of three models.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tomsug wrote: Yeah! Good idea! Something like this could be really nice!
Warboss on Warbike [6 PL, 115pts, -1CP]: Da Badskull Banner (Freebooterz), Killa Reputation (Freebooterz), Power Klaw, Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz, Warlord
+ Elites +
Nob with Waaagh! Banner [4 PL, 70pts, -1CP]: 1. Follow Me, Ladz!, Stratagem: Big Boss, Super Cybork Body
+ Fast Attack +
Warbikers [8 PL, 105pts] . Boss Nob: Big Choppa
. 3x Warbiker w/ Choppa: 3x Choppa, 6x Dakkagun
Warbikers [8 PL, 105pts] . Boss Nob: Big Choppa
. 3x Warbiker w/ Choppa: 3x Choppa, 6x Dakkagun
Certainly a cool concept, but I'd love walkers to be great also in small numbers in lists with a wide variety of units, not just exclusively good if taken in some sort of AoR style lists.
sure. But Kanz dont have E're we go. so you cant reroll your charge for free.
Yeh, Inspiring leader is better than Follow me Ladz. That was wrong.
Killa kanz do not have Ere we go… damn. That is not good. So they are useless as Telyporting surprise. And pretty much anything in the first wave. In such case less Kans and more of something else would be better.
I tried to give there some mobile punchy touch giving the Morknonaut extra movement with the Pistons and via Mega Dreads. But this army desperately needs Advance and Charge.
Kans would be great if they get a CORE keyword. They will be able to benefit from Waaaaaagh and they could be a Orrible gitz and get the Obsec.
I've always thought it was such a waste that they never implemented a DreadWAAAGH! option that buffs our walker units if you made a Big Mek your Warlord instead of a Warboss. They included the WALKERZ keyword and literally did nothing with it, we don't even have a strat dedicated to it as far as I remember. As it is, our dred mob units are in an awkward spot where they don't get the most relevant benefits of either speedwaaagh or a regular waaagh.
Grimskul wrote: I've always thought it was such a waste that they never implemented a DreadWAAAGH! option that buffs our walker units if you made a Big Mek your Warlord instead of a Warboss. They included the WALKERZ keyword and literally did nothing with it, we don't even have a strat dedicated to it as far as I remember. As it is, our dred mob units are in an awkward spot where they don't get the most relevant benefits of either speedwaaagh or a regular waaagh.
As much as I'd have liked to see it in the codex, I'm hopeful that we'll still see a TekWAAAGH! or DreadWAAAGH! supplement at some point. As you say, they seem to have been designed with one in mind. I can see it being our "Crusher Stampede" for 10th while we wait on a new book.
Tomsug wrote: Yeh, Inspiring leader is better than Follow me Ladz. That was wrong.
Killa kanz do not have Ere we go… damn. That is not good. So they are useless as Telyporting surprise. And pretty much anything in the first wave. In such case less Kans and more of something else would be better.
I tried to give there some mobile punchy touch giving the Morknonaut extra movement with the Pistons and via Mega Dreads. But this army desperately needs Advance and Charge.
Kans would be great if they get a CORE keyword. They will be able to benefit from Waaaaaagh and they could be a Orrible gitz and get the Obsec.
yea i just found out like 2 weeks ago after using killa kanz with deepstrike and ramming speed at a league match against grey knights. I dont recall if i used a free reroll there or not or if i successfully made my charge on the first try. But i found out afterwards that they dont have ere' we go. because it makes no SENSE that they dont have ere we go. Kind of stupid that 90% of the army has it but a select few doesnt. Sure normal grots could do without it, but of course a melee unit like killa kanz SHOULD have it.
For the love of Gork, even Grot mega tanks have it!
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Grimskul wrote: I've always thought it was such a waste that they never implemented a DreadWAAAGH! option that buffs our walker units if you made a Big Mek your Warlord instead of a Warboss. They included the WALKERZ keyword and literally did nothing with it, we don't even have a strat dedicated to it as far as I remember. As it is, our dred mob units are in an awkward spot where they don't get the most relevant benefits of either speedwaaagh or a regular waaagh.
indeed. going the extra mile of adding a "Walkerz" keyword and doing literally nothing with it is the stupidest thing ive ever seen. If theres no future expansion book in 9th edition for this to be expanded upon in a dreadwaaagh then it just makes absolutely no sense.
Tomsug wrote: Yeh, Inspiring leader is better than Follow me Ladz. That was wrong.
Killa kanz do not have Ere we go… damn. That is not good. So they are useless as Telyporting surprise. And pretty much anything in the first wave. In such case less Kans and more of something else would be better.
I tried to give there some mobile punchy touch giving the Morknonaut extra movement with the Pistons and via Mega Dreads. But this army desperately needs Advance and Charge.
Kans would be great if they get a CORE keyword. They will be able to benefit from Waaaaaagh and they could be a Orrible gitz and get the Obsec.
yea i just found out like 2 weeks ago after using killa kanz with deepstrike and ramming speed at a league match against grey knights. I dont recall if i used a free reroll there or not or if i successfully made my charge on the first try. But i found out afterwards that they dont have ere' we go. because it makes no SENSE that they dont have ere we go. Kind of stupid that 90% of the army has it but a select few doesnt. Sure normal grots could do without it, but of course a melee unit like killa kanz SHOULD have it.
For the love of Gork, even Grot mega tanks have it!
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Grimskul wrote: I've always thought it was such a waste that they never implemented a DreadWAAAGH! option that buffs our walker units if you made a Big Mek your Warlord instead of a Warboss. They included the WALKERZ keyword and literally did nothing with it, we don't even have a strat dedicated to it as far as I remember. As it is, our dred mob units are in an awkward spot where they don't get the most relevant benefits of either speedwaaagh or a regular waaagh.
indeed. going the extra mile of adding a "Walkerz" keyword and doing literally nothing with it is the stupidest thing ive ever seen. If theres no future expansion book in 9th edition for this to be expanded upon in a dreadwaaagh then it just makes absolutely no sense.
It's funny because I think the only rules interaction with that keyword is for the FW Goff special character Mekboss Buzzgob's command phase ability and I think that's it. I guess they really just wanted to focus on the squigs this edition :(
Grimskul wrote: They included the WALKERZ keyword and literally did nothing with it, we don't even have a strat dedicated to it as far as I remember.
Yeah, Orks aren't the only ones with dead keywords. I was primarily a Space Wolves player waaay back in 3rd edition and now trying to get back into the hobby, and the Wolf Guard keyword does literally nothing that the name of the model wasn't already doing.
I was looking at Freebooterz, but if I am running 9 Deff Dreads, I wasn't sold that it is better than Deathskulls reroll(each model, each phase) along with the 5+++ against the self-inflicted Mortal Wounds from KMB. Until just now anyway. I looked at Deff Dreads again and realized they have a 5+ BS not the 4+ BS that Killa Kanz have. Apparently, I assumed since they were similar in theme, and 2-3x as expensive, that they would have similar stats.
Anyway, the average of 6 shots from 3x KMB means Freebooterz hit 3 of them after their bonus is triggered on average (and 2 before). If they get some additional firepower from the Killa Kanz to soften up a MSU of Marines (for example), it'll take 1-2 Deff Dreads with 3x KMB to finish off a squad. So say 7/9ths get the additional hit bonus, or average of 2.77 hits each and taking 9 MW on average. Each Deathskulls Deff Dread is going to average 2 hits before the reroll, and the reroll is a 1/3 likely to generate another hit, so 2.33 hits (18% less than Freebooterz). But since they will always reroll a 1 if given the chance, and they will roll a 1 each on average, it'll be something like 3ish MW for all 9 (chance of rolling multiple 1s, or rerolling a miss into a 1), then 5+++, so like 2 MW vs 9 MW. (not sure on the exact equation, but it feels good).
Nob with Waaagh! Banner won't stack with Freebooterz +1, but would help their bonus get started for that phase. Will probably take a couple Dreads in melee to kick off Freebooterz, but 4 attacks hitting on 2s averages 3.33 hits, and 4 attacks hitting on 3s with a single reroll also averages 3.33 hits. Deathskullz can reroll the wound roll instead if you roll well to hit. So at least for the Deff Dreads, I rate their reroll to be slightly better than Freebooterz +1, assuming both armies take the Banner and like 1/3-1/2 get that bonus.
I mentioned Proxying the Dreads, because I was thinking something like a printed Contemptor body with a triple KMB arm and a Claw arm for the Deff Dreads and a printed boxy Dread body for the Killa Kanz. Then painted like Ultramarines, for the Ork-tra Marines.
Tomsug wrote: Yeh, Inspiring leader is better than Follow me Ladz. That was wrong.
Killa kanz do not have Ere we go… damn. That is not good. So they are useless as Telyporting surprise. And pretty much anything in the first wave. In such case less Kans and more of something else would be better.
I tried to give there some mobile punchy touch giving the Morknonaut extra movement with the Pistons and via Mega Dreads. But this army desperately needs Advance and Charge.
Kans would be great if they get a CORE keyword. They will be able to benefit from Waaaaaagh and they could be a Orrible gitz and get the Obsec.
yea i just found out like 2 weeks ago after using killa kanz with deepstrike and ramming speed at a league match against grey knights. I dont recall if i used a free reroll there or not or if i successfully made my charge on the first try. But i found out afterwards that they dont have ere' we go. because it makes no SENSE that they dont have ere we go. Kind of stupid that 90% of the army has it but a select few doesnt. Sure normal grots could do without it, but of course a melee unit like killa kanz SHOULD have it.
For the love of Gork, even Grot mega tanks have it!
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Grimskul wrote: I've always thought it was such a waste that they never implemented a DreadWAAAGH! option that buffs our walker units if you made a Big Mek your Warlord instead of a Warboss. They included the WALKERZ keyword and literally did nothing with it, we don't even have a strat dedicated to it as far as I remember. As it is, our dred mob units are in an awkward spot where they don't get the most relevant benefits of either speedwaaagh or a regular waaagh.
indeed. going the extra mile of adding a "Walkerz" keyword and doing literally nothing with it is the stupidest thing ive ever seen. If theres no future expansion book in 9th edition for this to be expanded upon in a dreadwaaagh then it just makes absolutely no sense.
It's funny because I think the only rules interaction with that keyword is for the FW Goff special character Mekboss Buzzgob's command phase ability and I think that's it. I guess they really just wanted to focus on the squigs this edition :(
Yea but even there they dropped the ball by not giving squiggoths the squig keyword..
Grimskul wrote: They included the WALKERZ keyword and literally did nothing with it, we don't even have a strat dedicated to it as far as I remember.
Yeah, Orks aren't the only ones with dead keywords. I was primarily a Space Wolves player waaay back in 3rd edition and now trying to get back into the hobby, and the Wolf Guard keyword does literally nothing that the name of the model wasn't already doing.
I was looking at Freebooterz, but if I am running 9 Deff Dreads, I wasn't sold that it is better than Deathskulls reroll(each model, each phase) along with the 5+++ against the self-inflicted Mortal Wounds from KMB. Until just now anyway. I looked at Deff Dreads again and realized they have a 5+ BS not the 4+ BS that Killa Kanz have. Apparently, I assumed since they were similar in theme, and 2-3x as expensive, that they would have similar stats.
Anyway, the average of 6 shots from 3x KMB means Freebooterz hit 3 of them after their bonus is triggered on average (and 2 before). If they get some additional firepower from the Killa Kanz to soften up a MSU of Marines (for example), it'll take 1-2 Deff Dreads with 3x KMB to finish off a squad. So say 7/9ths get the additional hit bonus, or average of 2.77 hits each and taking 9 MW on average. Each Deathskulls Deff Dread is going to average 2 hits before the reroll, and the reroll is a 1/3 likely to generate another hit, so 2.33 hits (18% less than Freebooterz). But since they will always reroll a 1 if given the chance, and they will roll a 1 each on average, it'll be something like 3ish MW for all 9 (chance of rolling multiple 1s, or rerolling a miss into a 1), then 5+++, so like 2 MW vs 9 MW. (not sure on the exact equation, but it feels good).
Nob with Waaagh! Banner won't stack with Freebooterz +1, but would help their bonus get started for that phase. Will probably take a couple Dreads in melee to kick off Freebooterz, but 4 attacks hitting on 2s averages 3.33 hits, and 4 attacks hitting on 3s with a single reroll also averages 3.33 hits. Deathskullz can reroll the wound roll instead if you roll well to hit. So at least for the Deff Dreads, I rate their reroll to be slightly better than Freebooterz +1, assuming both armies take the Banner and like 1/3-1/2 get that bonus.
I mentioned Proxying the Dreads, because I was thinking something like a printed Contemptor body with a triple KMB arm and a Claw arm for the Deff Dreads and a printed boxy Dread body for the Killa Kanz. Then painted like Ultramarines, for the Ork-tra Marines.
I feel like Freebooterz is a hard sell for Dred Mob because getting off that +1 to hit is a lot harder than it looks when you don't have the weight of fire or mobility to get to easy to squish targets like Speed Mob does through planes and set that initial +1 to hit for your army. Deathskulls is more consistent with having each unit have a reroll and like you said the 5+ save against mortals is becoming more relevant with the mortal wound abilities being disseminated across armies.
Tomsug wrote: Yeh, Inspiring leader is better than Follow me Ladz. That was wrong.
Killa kanz do not have Ere we go… damn. That is not good. So they are useless as Telyporting surprise. And pretty much anything in the first wave. In such case less Kans and more of something else would be better.
I tried to give there some mobile punchy touch giving the Morknonaut extra movement with the Pistons and via Mega Dreads. But this army desperately needs Advance and Charge.
Kans would be great if they get a CORE keyword. They will be able to benefit from Waaaaaagh and they could be a Orrible gitz and get the Obsec.
yea i just found out like 2 weeks ago after using killa kanz with deepstrike and ramming speed at a league match against grey knights. I dont recall if i used a free reroll there or not or if i successfully made my charge on the first try. But i found out afterwards that they dont have ere' we go. because it makes no SENSE that they dont have ere we go. Kind of stupid that 90% of the army has it but a select few doesnt. Sure normal grots could do without it, but of course a melee unit like killa kanz SHOULD have it.
For the love of Gork, even Grot mega tanks have it!
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Grimskul wrote: I've always thought it was such a waste that they never implemented a DreadWAAAGH! option that buffs our walker units if you made a Big Mek your Warlord instead of a Warboss. They included the WALKERZ keyword and literally did nothing with it, we don't even have a strat dedicated to it as far as I remember. As it is, our dred mob units are in an awkward spot where they don't get the most relevant benefits of either speedwaaagh or a regular waaagh.
indeed. going the extra mile of adding a "Walkerz" keyword and doing literally nothing with it is the stupidest thing ive ever seen. If theres no future expansion book in 9th edition for this to be expanded upon in a dreadwaaagh then it just makes absolutely no sense.
It's funny because I think the only rules interaction with that keyword is for the FW Goff special character Mekboss Buzzgob's command phase ability and I think that's it. I guess they really just wanted to focus on the squigs this edition :(
Yea but even there they dropped the ball by not giving squiggoths the squig keyword..
Ugh, I forgot that. So dumb with how much can be fixed if they just sent an intern to clean up these datasheets/rulesets.
Deathskull vs Freebootas - yeah. It' s about obsec. Make an army totaly ignoring obsec in these days makes the army unable to score. So you need either your own, or at least anti-obsec banner.
I 'm definitely not the fan of the freebota clan ability. Unreliable and criple you the target prioritizing. I don' t like it at all.
Ah amazing! I suppose that makes sense. I was assuming it was the "you can only modify a dice roll by 1". But I can see why that would make sense for hit and wound rolls.
And then obviously AP reduces my save roll? So if I'm at 6+ save, and adding +3 to my rolls, the AP of the weapon is going to reduce my save rolls? Is that the way to think about it?
It’s funny because it would have normally been a really strong defensive buff for orks to get a 3+ save and yet in 9th it’s not really that big a deal anymore. Still 3+ sv in light cover and deep strike for mobility makes kommandos one of our best infantry units.
Mythic Miniatures wrote: Ah amazing! I suppose that makes sense. I was assuming it was the "you can only modify a dice roll by 1". But I can see why that would make sense for hit and wound rolls.
And then obviously AP reduces my save roll? So if I'm at 6+ save, and adding +3 to my rolls, the AP of the weapon is going to reduce my save rolls? Is that the way to think about it?
Okay. Save roll time!
Your Save Characteristic (the X+ at the far right of your datasheet, under Sv) is always the number you need to pass.
Usually, the modifiers you see are negative. AP applies to the roll, so if you're hit with an AP-3 weapon, you roll 1d6-3 and need to hit your Save Characteristic to ignore that wound.
Cover and some abilities provide a bonus to that, with Cover being a +1 and abilities being whatever they say.
So, let's say you have some Kommandos in Light Cover (the kind that gives a bonus against Ranged Attacks). You need a 6+ result to ignore a wound, on 1d6+1 (Cover)+2 (Ability), or 3+ on die, assuming AP0.
If you're shot with an AP-2 weapon, you just subtract that in the die roll. 1d6+1+2-2, or 1d6+1. Need a 5+ on die.
This is probably needlessly technical! There's some rules oddities involving saves better than 2+, which is why there are no such saves in 40k (there were for a bit, before GW edited). There are EFFECTIVE 1+ or 0+ saves, where that's the result you'd need on die if 1s didn't always fail, but not TRUE 1+ or better saves.
Also, quick note-the only rolls that have modifiers capped at +/-1 are hit rolls and wound rolls. Everything else can be modified more than that.
Mythic Miniatures wrote: Ah amazing! I suppose that makes sense. I was assuming it was the "you can only modify a dice roll by 1". But I can see why that would make sense for hit and wound rolls.
And then obviously AP reduces my save roll? So if I'm at 6+ save, and adding +3 to my rolls, the AP of the weapon is going to reduce my save rolls? Is that the way to think about it?
Okay. Save roll time!
Your Save Characteristic (the X+ at the far right of your datasheet, under Sv) is always the number you need to pass.
Usually, the modifiers you see are negative. AP applies to the roll, so if you're hit with an AP-3 weapon, you roll 1d6-3 and need to hit your Save Characteristic to ignore that wound.
Cover and some abilities provide a bonus to that, with Cover being a +1 and abilities being whatever they say.
So, let's say you have some Kommandos in Light Cover (the kind that gives a bonus against Ranged Attacks). You need a 6+ result to ignore a wound, on 1d6+1 (Cover)+2 (Ability), or 3+ on die, assuming AP0.
If you're shot with an AP-2 weapon, you just subtract that in the die roll. 1d6+1+2-2, or 1d6+1. Need a 5+ on die.
This is probably needlessly technical! There's some rules oddities involving saves better than 2+, which is why there are no such saves in 40k (there were for a bit, before GW edited). There are EFFECTIVE 1+ or 0+ saves, where that's the result you'd need on die if 1s didn't always fail, but not TRUE 1+ or better saves.
Also, quick note-the only rolls that have modifiers capped at +/-1 are hit rolls and wound rolls. Everything else can be modified more than that.
Thank you for the breakdown, that was very helpful.
I have my first game booked for next Thursday; 500pts.
My list has a wazbom in it, but I'm a bit confused about whether I am going to be able to use it effectively. So the rules state, if the flyers/aircrafts base is outside the battlefield due to min moves it's either destroyed or placed into strat reserves. But it's only placed into strat reserves if that rule is being played?/ If my army is battleforged?
How do I know if the strat reserves rule is in effect? And on the minimum board size for a 500pt game is a flyer worth it?
I assume it would go; turn 1, I will be able to move up and shoot, turn 2 il move into reserves? Back on turn 3 and shoot? Turn 4 I should also be on the board, turn 5 il be off board and count as destroyed at the end of the game?
Well, with Tau, Custodes, Crusher, Harlies, Eldar still un-nerfed and running rampant all over the tournament scene, I think Alphork strike is effectively dead.
I think Buggies stand even less of a chance, especially in a meta where 9 Voidweavers are running about.
Wonder what would happen if I ran an Obsec heavy list whose sole purpose was to tag objectives and just die as slow as possible. Problem being....nothing we have can really hold objectives longer than a turn.
On the flipside, the AoR list might do well in this regard thanks to its Invuln...maybe its time to bring out more of my warbikers and Deffkoptas...not to mention my 3 scrapjetz
9 voidweavers are not meta though. No one, but hardcore meta chasers even has them, it was illegal to field more than 3 before and they were the worst unit in the codex. It's like saying that every ork players fielded 9 squigbuggies and/or 5 flyers back in their days.
Even at tournaments, how many ork meta chaser players did actually field that build? I don't think 9 voidweaver would become common to face. At tournaments I mean, they'll never exist outside them.
SemperMortis wrote: Well, with Tau, Custodes, Crusher, Harlies, Eldar still un-nerfed and running rampant all over the tournament scene, I think Alphork strike is effectively dead.
I think Buggies stand even less of a chance, especially in a meta where 9 Voidweavers are running about.
Wonder what would happen if I ran an Obsec heavy list whose sole purpose was to tag objectives and just die as slow as possible. Problem being....nothing we have can really hold objectives longer than a turn.
On the flipside, the AoR list might do well in this regard thanks to its Invuln...maybe its time to bring out more of my warbikers and Deffkoptas...not to mention my 3 scrapjetz
Warbikers are obsec that can hold. 9 warbikers is a real pain to kill. So if you have 27 warbikers, do not hesitate! If you play large squads, you can efectively play Nachmund data. And if you play them as Blood Axe, you can shoot and do the action via strategem = move 9 bikers to the oposite quater 20”, fire 108 shots in first turn and do the Data and conquer the objective. In next turn, do it again.
Just do not bother to charge… then they die faster and they are just a 9 boyz… spread widely on the table….. you can block almost half of the table with such squad and hold multiple objectives.
Blackie wrote: 9 voidweavers are not meta though. No one, but hardcore meta chasers even has them, it was illegal to field more than 3 before and they were the worst unit in the codex. It's like saying that every ork players fielded 9 squigbuggies and/or 5 flyers back in their days.
Even at tournaments, how many ork meta chaser players did actually field that build? I don't think 9 voidweaver would become common to face. At tournaments I mean, they'll never exist outside them.
True, but I am talking about Competitive meta, specifically the tournament scene. And Harlies came out shortly before the GT I went to, and every single Harlequins player was rocking 9.
If you are talking friendly games....its irrelevant, I would just refuse to play against a harlequins player who showed up to a friendly game with 9 voidweavers
Warbikers are obsec that can hold. 9 warbikers is a real pain to kill. So if you have 27 warbikers, do not hesitate! If you play large squads, you can efectively play Nachmund data. And if you play them as Blood Axe, you can shoot and do the action via strategem = move 9 bikers to the oposite quater 20”, fire 108 shots in first turn and do the Data and conquer the objective. In next turn, do it again.
Just do not bother to charge… then they die faster and they are just a 9 boyz… spread widely on the table….. you can block almost half of the table with such squad and hold multiple objectives.
Warbikers USED TO BE hard to shift. Not anymore. A custards unit is going to laugh at how easy it is to kill Warbikers, their Heavy Bolter infantry with their beam weapons as secondary are going to shoot both profiles because they are already -1 to hit anyway, its just a bad day right now in the competitive scene for orkz. And if they get stuck in combat with custards its even worse.
BTW 108 shots at S5 against a Custards unit bunched together on deployment with their banner works out to 18 hits, 9 wounds and 1.5dmg Yep, that is how ridiculous this game has gotten for us.
Well, trying to shoot down custards infantry with warbikers is double fail.
1. Fail is to try to shoot them with the warbikers. Their profile has different pourpose.
2. Fail is try to shoot them at all. Just blok their movement. That is all you need. You need to score. Not to kill some baroque angels. So yes, they gonna kill the bikers. And what? They scored, mission sucessful. If you play bikers as FB, they will be able to steal the custards the objective (and drop their banner they usually play) too via Badskull Banner. Mess for a turn that can make a difference about 9VP at least.
Warbikers shooting is great againts tau infantry or all kinds of eldar infantry. And guardsmans of course…
It is not rudiculous what this game gotten for us. Do you wanna see something ridiculous? Try to play IG. Average ork competitive list is for IG same type of problem like 9 voidweavers for us. That is ridiculous.
This talk of "who actually has them" reminds me of the 7th edition wave serpent issues....
"Nobody has that many of them" i'd hear, and every eldar i faced had at least 6 every damn game...and nobody in my area are meta-chasers, they aint got the cash to drop like that.
I’m usually a rule of 3 guy and don’t like to chase spam lists and like to make each model different but there are plenty of people who buy and sell armies on the resellers market who end up chasing spam lists for tournaments or borrow units from friends..
I’m glad I didn’t buy that third ork flyer as I only had the original ork flyer kit magnetized with everything but the wazbom profile and a full wazbom magnetized. But I was able to play friendly and local games with both flyers counting as wazboms and didn’t need a third flyer. If I would have went to a major tournament though I would now have a third useless flyer.
Aagh, I bought the 4th box with the plane just because I love the model and wanted to make another great version long before it becames meta. Now it looks sadly down from the shelf to me. Propably became a good investment as I see the old price tag on the box…
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Vineheart01 wrote: This talk of "who actually has them" reminds me of the 7th edition wave serpent issues....
"Nobody has that many of them" i'd hear, and every eldar i faced had at least 6 every damn game...and nobody in my area are meta-chasers, they aint got the cash to drop like that.
Somebody says Smashaguns? There is a saying in Prague “Anything can be a Smashagun”
Vineheart01 wrote: This talk of "who actually has them" reminds me of the 7th edition wave serpent issues....
"Nobody has that many of them" i'd hear, and every eldar i faced had at least 6 every damn game...and nobody in my area are meta-chasers, they aint got the cash to drop like that.
I seem to recall Wave Serpents being an issue in 4th-5th as well, so maybe not a surprise people still had plenty!
So my tournament this weekend is over, just a small one with 24 players but 5 games.
Brought my Blood Axe Speedmob again:
Spoiler:
Wartrike (Warlord, I`ve got a plan lads, finkin cap)
Warboss on Bike
3 Scrapjets
2 KBB 2 Dragsta
2 Squigbuggies
1 Snazzwagon
2 Wazboms
5 + 5 + 4 Bikes
I went for my usual tactic and put the Scrapjets in tellyporta every game and the Wazboms and Dragstas went into strategic reserve.
While i was lucky to face none of the 5 Custodes or 5 pure Harlies (one dark with a bit more bikes, the rest all boats) i had 2 matches against Tau, 1 against the only IG player and 1 against Harlies with Eldar. Sadly game 3 was autowin for me as player 24 got sick and i was the worst player at that time after 2 losses. :(
First game against IG: A really close one that i lost by about 87:79. Mainly because my Scrapjets failed their ramming Speed charge out of the tellyporta which meant a 12 points primary swing. He had 6 x 10 guardsmen with 4 transporters, 3 Tank commanders, 2 Mantikore, 1 Wyvern and a huge mob of Bulgryns who pushed for the midboard and tanked sooo many 4++. Besides of that we both killed almost all of our armies and it was really fun! In the end going first was the advantage that gave him the edge as he pushed for the objectives with his infantry which blocked a lot of my movement and i needed to use some of my shooting to clear the objectives before i could handle his heavy hitters.
Second game against Borkan Tau with 1 Riptide and otherwise typical list with lots of crisis. He also went first and pushed really hard for objectives and board control which pushed back my own reserves. What followed was a brutal trade of blows which ended with both having less than 300 points left. My Scrapjets failed another tellyport ramming speed charge which gave my a zero primary turn and gave him 12 instead of 4. And safed his most dangeroud crisis blob that had lost the 2+ 4+++ chef and all drones before. :/
Also RND was an absolute nightmare. The mob of 4 rolled a 5, and my mobs of 5 both rolled a 6 in turn 2 + 3. I did one RND turn 4 but he killed my bikes before i could get at least 4 VP out of it. Together with the Scrapjet fail and afterwards hard scoring it ended up about 70:45 but should have been a lot closer.
After the free win for game 3 i was paired against a Harlies & Aeldari soup led by Yncarne. Pumped up Death Jester, Shadowseer, Eldar Psykers, Banshees, Scorpions, 2 x Harlies with 2 Shadowweavers, Nightspinner, multiple D-Cannon Weapon platforms, 2 Voidweavers, 2 x rangers, 1 avengers squad and everything tooled up with the usual meta upgrades.
Oh boy my dices were on fire in that one! I surely never had so many 6+++ and 5+++ i rolled for my vehicles. But he had made 2 - 3 big mistakes, the worst was to jump his Yncarne on an objective midfield but he had a hole in his screening so my Scrapjets went in from tellyporta and rammed him down to 2 wounds after 1 Wazbom had taken off a few wounds and killed him in melee. I played the game without any mistakes and was able to max out every secondary. 15/15 engage, 15/15 Asassinate, 7/7 No Prisoners and Primaries were maxed out turn 4. I managed to deny him any primaries on which he did 0 and since it would have been 0 points for him total we switched his TTL to Bring it Down midgame so he ended up with 16, including battle ready score. His light Harlies soaked up a lot of firepower but in the end he had only 1 Shadowweaver left with 2 wounds and i had lost 1 Wazbom, all Bikes, 1 KBB and the 3 Scrapjets.
Last game: Tau again, this time Farsight allied world with 3 Broadsides, 2 x Devilfish Breachers, 2 Commanders, Ethereal, 10 Kroot, 1 Stealth Suit unit and the rest maxed out Crisis of those 3 + 5 in reserve for the full reroll strat. The table was not perfekt so i couldn`t hide all my stuff, so he deepstriked his squad of 5 crisis turn one and went for a devastating alpha strike turn 1 & 2. Until my reserves arrived he had killed everything besides 2 single Bikes, the Wartrike and the 2 Squigbuggies.
I was able to score a bit but was allready a bit behind.
Second turn all my reserves come in, i knew i needed a crippling strike to have any chance on a win. Shooting killed 1 Devilfish, 10 Breachers, almost all Drones, 7 Crisis and all ghosts but my Scrapjets failed ramming Speed a third time on this tournament, to be fair this time with a 11" charge because he used his -2" charge strat.
That was game deciding though, as it meant a whooping 15 VP swing because i needed the charge to get to my primary objective as well.
After that we just killed all of our stuff and i was really fighting for every objective to score as much as possible and in the end he had only the 2 Commanders, his camping Ethereal and 3 Broadsides left who must have killed 1000 points all by themselves.
With his last shooting model he managed to kill the last squigbuggy which costed me another 7 VP and got me tabled for the first and only time that tournament.
But since i needed 3 turns to kill all his stuff midfield he got the edge on me with primary and stranglehold - didn`t help that i took Assassinate (0 VP) instead of 4 safe VP for bring it down either so in the end i lost about 85 to 45 i think but it felt a lot closer tbh.
Overall i am happy, as my goal was to win at least 1 game and i ended up placing 17/24 due to that free win round 3.
The list as it is worked great and all 3 losses were close games were i got to kill most of my opponents stuff but failed to score properly. To fail 3/4 Scrapjet charges from tellyporta felt really bad, but i wouldn`t change it.
Only thing i WILL change is never play 5 Bikes in Speedmob again and fail RND. Would have won that 1 game if i had simply played 6 + 6 instead 5+5+3.
The problem is, i need to cut points if i want to have 3 x 6 Bikes which is a nice thing to have. There wasn`t one unit that performed badly this weekend. But i guess leaving one Buggy is the way to go as it would free up points and also reduce the Bring it down VP to 14. I guess it will hit the dragstas, i had 2 cases where i couldn`t place them properly in 6" with both getting a good shooting angle. This would also open up the possibility to use him as a single engage buggy, which he is really good at and i could use the free i`ve got a plan lads slot for 6 Bikes to improve my RND scoring.
If they weren`t so bad i`d even consider Nob Bikers instead of the Snazzwaggon for a bit more ObSec, if GW ever updates those it might open up a few more options.
Would be good to further reduce the Bring it Down count as well!
(So those Custodes and Harlies armies don`t get that 100:x win against you, there have been a few of those this tournament. )
True, but I am talking about Competitive meta, specifically the tournament scene. And Harlies came out shortly before the GT I went to, and every single Harlequins player was rocking 9.
If you are talking friendly games....its irrelevant, I would just refuse to play against a harlequins player who showed up to a friendly game with 9 voidweavers
I was talking about competitive metas. How many ork players did actually field 9 squigbuggies and 5 flyers back when they outraged other players? Not every ork players fielded that build, probably not even the majority of ork players attending tournaments. And ork players are much more than harlequins ones.
I really don't see harlequins players jumping to buy 6-9 voidweavers just because they're the flavour of the month NOW. We all know they're not gonna last for long. Only some hardcore meta chasers will get them, and even in tournaments those kind of guys aren't the majority. So they'll certainly show up regularly but it's not like they'll become a common build to face everytime someone goes to a tournament.
Maybe big events are even more hardcore oriented than common local tournaments and in such places it might be common to face those 9 voidweavers, though.
Tomsug wrote: 2. Fail is try to shoot them at all. Just blok their movement. That is all you need. You need to score. Not to kill some baroque angels. So yes, they gonna kill the bikers. And what? They scored, mission sucessful. If you play bikers as FB, they will be able to steal the custards the objective (and drop their banner they usually play) too via Badskull Banner. Mess for a turn that can make a difference about 9VP at least.
QFT. It´s so tiresome to read all this "but it doesn´t kill stuff!!!" in every unit assessment when scoring has so little do do with it and VP wins games. You should approach army building with a scoring plan first and then how to fight/survive long enough. Going in with the attitude "I´ll kill everything and then score whatever" is asking for a loss.
I win half the games at my club because of this mindset. So many players show up and go "Eeeh, I´ll pick whatever." and then get surprised when they lose. "But, but, I killed SO much...".
Tomsug wrote: 2. Fail is try to shoot them at all. Just blok their movement. That is all you need. You need to score. Not to kill some baroque angels. So yes, they gonna kill the bikers. And what? They scored, mission sucessful. If you play bikers as FB, they will be able to steal the custards the objective (and drop their banner they usually play) too via Badskull Banner. Mess for a turn that can make a difference about 9VP at least.
QFT. It´s so tiresome to read all this "but it doesn´t kill stuff!!!" in every unit assessment when scoring has so little do do with it and VP wins games. You should approach army building with a scoring plan first and then how to fight/survive long enough. Going in with the attitude "I´ll kill everything and then score whatever" is asking for a loss.
I win half the games at my club because of this mindset. So many players show up and go "Eeeh, I´ll pick whatever." and then get surprised when they lose. "But, but, I killed SO much...".
It's an interesting thought. I've definitely won more games since moving over to focus on scoring from just killing everything dead.
Even moreso I've found to be preventing scoring to be the main game winner for me. I've had games won where I've barely killed anything at all and the VPs are trickling in, but my movement has been great and I've prevented them from scoring that way. Sometimes you prevent scoring by annihilating what's on the other side of the table and you clean up for four turns. You don't need to dominate each game, you just have to nab a few more VPs than the opponent.
We definitely have one thing going for us at the moment; our main scoring units at the moment (kommandos, bikes, koptas, etc) are all pretty fast, pretty durable (compared to other Ork options), and all quite reasonably priced. We can load up on stuff that does well at the objective game and still have plenty of points for stuff that does damage.
We just have to make tweaks here and there to get by and after a few more books we will go back to being the anti-meta choice, which is where Orks have always been best. Let them dull our teeth a little whilst the Custodes and Tau prance about, but we'll be back and no one will be ready for us.
Yeah, it' s all about the scoring and deny scoring plan. And speaking about Speed Mob the warbikers are pure gold.
Grotrebel thinks about the number of bikers - in my experience, you need as much squads as possible. I even play all HQ as bikers and it' s great. That gives you 5 obsec misiles - very good base for scoring. I hate the people who see it and kill the bikers first.
Regarding the number of bikers in the squad - sorry, but I 'm afraid, you should really fix it as you suggest Because I have following experience:
3 bikers in the squad - bad. Die too fast.
4 bikers - very good. Great ROI. Usually the average “voley” kills 3 bikers and the boss survive and score later. The squad is still reasonable small to hide if necessary and already big enough to make about 16” line 1,1” in front of marching terminators or other non-flying units.
5 - bad. Already suffer with morale and just bigger. Plays the same role like squad of 4 but for the bigger price. not big enough to score data.
6-7- better. It already scores data, but just one killed and you can fail in scoring. And already suffer for blast
8-9 - very good but pretty expensive. And huge on the table. Suffer for morale and blast but who cares. It takes a huge ammount of the time to kill such stuff. Especialy the huge bastards with D3+3 damage scream while wasting almost half of their damage on every bloody biker. Burning 2CP for morale autopass for the last surviving Nob Biker the be still on the objective is the reward on the end. Say hallo to the Silent King - he is the average result of the duel of 9bikers vs. him. Don' t even speak about the screening line such mob can create. However, the price is already pretty steep.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmm that was pretty fast. GW found, that 96% win rate of Harleis (Adepticon except mirror matches) is not great and they maybe do something with it…
"You can therefore expect imminent tweaks and changes to the Harlequins in particular – they’ll remain an awesome faction, but other factions will find them more fun to play against, and Aeldari players will see them support a wider variety of army lists in competitive settings."
against custodes for the second time (emperor's chosen. With the 4+ against mortals) in mission 22 "Conversion"
While I wouldn't say it was impossible for me to win, it would have required me to play the perfect game to win which I didn't. Finished 52-87
The custodes "stance" that gives them +1s against vehicles wrecks ramshackle (it brings the bikes from s7 to s8.
I found that while engage and RND are easy to score RnD requires your unit to be 6" from other table quarters which means you can score the primary objectives.
I'm going to slightly tweak the list by replacing the wartrike for a warbike. While this doesn't seem like much it changes my go to secondaries from RnD and engage to Deploy teleport Homer and Behind enemy lines.
I don't know whether to give my warboss on warbike faster than yous or Ard as nails as a trait. I intend to use him to score Deploy teleport Homer and Behind enemy lines so the added toughness is good but the ability to threated a 20" +2d6 charge is nice especially against tau. I'll also give him the redder armour as my relic. Thoughts welcome.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also lost my only hq in the custodes game T2 which left me 4 CP down due to the mission special rule
True, but I am talking about Competitive meta, specifically the tournament scene. And Harlies came out shortly before the GT I went to, and every single Harlequins player was rocking 9.
If you are talking friendly games....its irrelevant, I would just refuse to play against a harlequins player who showed up to a friendly game with 9 voidweavers
I was talking about competitive metas. How many ork players did actually field 9 squigbuggies and 5 flyers back when they outraged other players? Not every ork players fielded that build, probably not even the majority of ork players attending tournaments. And ork players are much more than harlequins ones.
I really don't see harlequins players jumping to buy 6-9 voidweavers just because they're the flavour of the month NOW. We all know they're not gonna last for long. Only some hardcore meta chasers will get them, and even in tournaments those kind of guys aren't the majority. So they'll certainly show up regularly but it's not like they'll become a common build to face everytime someone goes to a tournament.
Maybe big events are even more hardcore oriented than common local tournaments and in such places it might be common to face those 9 voidweavers, though.
Uhm, star weavers and void weavers are the same model, and if you have a harlequin player who regularly plays 3k games or larger, they can easily pull that many models from their regular collection..
Alright so the GT is over and i did not do as well as i was hoping. Ive decided to put my report in spoilers to not take up too much room.
My list was:
Spoiler:
Ghaz Warboss on warbike w. BBK and da killa klaw 2x10 Grots 2x10 Trukkboyz 2x10 Kommandos 3x10 stormboyz 3x3 Deffkoptas 3x3 Mek GUnz 2x Trukks
Spoiler:
Battle 1:Loss First battle was my biggest loss, and it was against Tau. I scored like a total of 17 points with painted army. Yikes. I tried to deploy defensively but it was a slanted deployment and the terrain wasnt placed to make up for that. So even though i tried to deploy defensively it didnt matter, because apparently some tau units can move very super far, and others can deepstrike turn 1. In the end he got turn 1 which made it even worse, so i was trashed completely by turn 3. At least half my army died turn 1 to his shooting, and when i finally got in turn 2 ghaz failed to kill their warlord despite him only having 6 wounds or so total.
It was a colossal fail. Looking back, trying to deploy out of line of sight didnt make any sense given how far he could move and how the terrain was placed as if we deployed straight, rather than having a slanted deployment. I should have just risked everything and deployed on the front to get a turn 1 charge. But needless to say he got turn 1 anyway so. I was smashed to smithereens with their 3AP str 5 weapons on basically everything + a bunch of higher strength weapons as well.
Battle 2: Narrow win I played against another ork player who went full ork boyz horde with 20 beastsnaggas, squig riders, beastboss on squig with BBK and another Ghaz so yea. it ended up with a ghaz vs ghaz fight. Anyway it was that stage where you only have a quarter deployment zone and 18 in between both zones, so i deployed far behind so i wouldnt get charged first turn. It paid off because he got turn 1 and didnt declare waaagh there. I, on the other hand, had deployed my Kommandos too far ahead in the no mans land so both my 10 man kommando squads got destroyed turn 1. I essentially played the entire game without kommandos because i also couldnt interrupt (well i could but he positioned himself in a way that it wouldnt be worth it for me). All in all i won the battle but with like a 15 point difference or so. This would have been a much larger win if i hadnt been an absolute tea kettle and deployed my kommandos too far ahead.
Battle 3: Loss I played against an imperial guard army composition i had not tried before. He started with 2x5 bullgryns on the table as well as like 4 or 5 Taurox transports who all hit pretty damn hard as well as his tank commander, a manticore and some infantry inside of the tauroxes. On the other hand, half a million scions and a few guardsmen came tellyporting in by turn 2. I got turn 1 but i was unsure about how i should deploy and move up. I deployed for a turn 2 charge, and by making a better turn 2 charge than a somewhat turn 1 charge, i was hoping i could destroy enough of his tauroxes and such that i could divert my attention to his incoming tellyporting army. But that failed. So those scions went to town on my deffkoptas. on the other hand, ghaz never died.
I did think about trying to just spreading out and holding out to turn 3 so his deepstrikes would die, but those tauroxes hit really really hard with AP1 compared to their cost, and coupled with their tank kommander i was really unsure that i would be able to hold out so that i still had enough infantry to deal with his remaining things.
All in all i could probably win that fight, but experience made me lose i think.
Battle 4: Win Against Imperial Guard again and Yarrik! Finally, a worthy opponent. Our battle will be legendary! It was a true battle of armageddon with ghaz on one side and yarrik on the other. Unfortunately that means that every hit roll near yarrik can be rerolled. and there were 2 tank commanders and 2 manticores raining death upon me because of that. Anyway, i got turn 1, got in to position as well as i could behind cover, but i had left out 2x3 deffkoptas who got mulched sadly. It was actually looking kind of bleak up to turn 2 but i turned the game around turn 3 when he started making big mistakes like sending guardsmen in to fight ghaz in an attempt to hold me back from destroying those 2 manticores and 2 tank commanders, rather than just blocking my movement. He was a slow player so he stressed out which worked for my advantage. In the end, ghaz killed a chimera, like 20-30 guardsmen, a tank commander and two manticores. He lost only 1 wound (well turn 5 his manticore blew up so i lost 2 more wounds there) and yarrik ran away from Ghaz.
Battle 5: Extremely narrow loss due to ghaz being an idiot. He had those katapron breachers or what ever they are called en mass (almost like 20 or something), as well as 2x 5 Kastelan robots. Now ive never fought AdMech before, but the fact he can throw -1 to hit both shooting and melee on my entire army seems rather insane. then declare fight last on kastelans who already have 7 wounds, can potentially ignore AP 1 and 2, get transhuman and yadda yadda. But fair enough. I Lost very narrowly, with the score being 71-73 to him. And i would have won, if ghaz had not FAILED a 4 inch charge against his two remaining characters, WITH my ere we go!. I failed 2x 4 inch charges. I still cant get over it today. So theres not much to say there.
Experience really is key and i just havent really played much in 9th. Also theres so much shooting in this game and ways to prevent close combat armies from functioning well that theres no doubt that Speed waaagh heavy armies are in general just faring much better than close combat. I think i will make a shift to a speed freeks heavy list rather than infantry for competitive play. I ended up with a 31st out of 50 which isnt great i think, and i was hoping to land in the 20s. Much of that is due to me only getting 17 points in my first battle against tau, but i was just so absolutely fisted in that battle. So that was really really sad. And of course ghaz failing a god damn 4 inch charge by battle 5 which lost me the game. But such is the nature of this game. I will hopefully play better next time.
The person who got first place was actually an ork player running a speed freeks army. Andreas Drachman. So good for us orks i guess. The speed freeks are still doing well.
Yeah we had multiple Harlies players and all but 1 were rocking maximum boats.
And this was a local tournament and not all of them were tournament regulars or hardcore Meta chasers.
Harlies have limited model choices also which means most have at least 3 Starweavers and 3 Voidweavers anyway. Most players were from mine or the other hobby club who organised that tournament. I don't know about the average of smaller gaming groups but the games in my area tend to be at least semi competitive most of the time. That basically means stuff like 9 boats is a pretty common thing especially if one already had the fotm army and needed just a few units to go for the up to date meta lists.
Not to mention Tau, CWE and Custodes players where even casual players have large enough collections to go for the good lists as soon as the good builds have been found. Which is pretty fast with Goonhammer, Art of War and other channels dashing out reviews at the preorder weekend and often leaks beforehand.
I really hope the emergency balance next week will help to even the odds a bit.
Top 10 in the tournament was:
Harlies
Custodes
Drukhari & Harlies
Custodes
Custodes
Harlies
Tau
Harlies
Tau
Tau
Only things not one more of those from place 11-16 before my orks #17 were one GK, 1 Sisters and 1 DA and a few more Tau, Crusher, Aeldari who placed worse than me.
In my opinion Tau and Custodes will be fine if they get a few point hikes on the worst offenders and maybe increase the strat costs for Bikes.
Harlies on the other side should get a general revamp of their rules in Edition to a few point increases, mainly light and that aura that works on vehicles as well.
Beardragon - do you have the winning ork list? What was the name of the event?
Anyway thanks for the report!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Heh, I read your report and see what I see too - IG is now so obscure rare army, people sometimes lost just because they are confused what the hell is it and what to do.
If man do not know the army playing againts, it' s always hard.
Tomsug wrote: Beardragon - do you have the winning ork list? What was the name of the event?
Anyway thanks for the report!
The GT was called "Midtcon GT40k" and was hosted in Denmark. And sure thing. i dont know how to copy it directly from battlescribe or from my phone to this place but i can write the setup normally. List below
Flyers: Dakka jet w 2x additional supa shootas Wazbom w 2x tellyport mega blastas, stikbomb flinga and 2x supa shootas.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tomsug wrote: Beardragon - do you have the winning ork list? What was the name of the event?
Anyway thanks for the report!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Heh, I read your report and see what I see too - IG is now so obscure rare army, people sometimes lost just because they are confused what the hell is it and what to do.
If man do not know the army playing againts, it' s always hard.
Yea. I mean i knew he would tellyport them all i just didnt know what the best way to deal with it was. Should i blitz his tauroxes and bullgryns and the tank commander + manticore hoping to kill them before they reach turn 2? Or should i spread out and just get shredded for 3 turns? I went for option 1 and it didnt go well. But i also dont know if option 2 would be good because those tauroxes really did a number on my infantry and his tank commander removed at least 1 unit each turn. The manticore didnt make that decision easier either. And the problem was that the deployment on the first day, on the first 3 battles was completely gak for my Mek Gunz. There were literally no lanes i could shoot down from that made any sense. so holding my own backline objective with mek gunz while still shooting werent a thing. Im actually really glad i went for grots as well because THEY held the objectives, while i had to move out of the objective areas just to get my mek gunz in to firing position. It was only by day 2 when we had 2 battles left, and the terrain was placed differently, that my mek Gunz actually had the opportunity to hold my own objective while still being able to shoot. So they did decent work by battle 4, but against Admech where i had turn 1, all 3 mek gunz whiffed and killed nothing. Didnt even do any damage. Then they all died by his turn. So yea. And this is also why i keep grots to hold objectives. because if i hadnt had grots, then i would need to keep actual kommandos or stormboyz to hold my backline objective, because the mek gunz were dead. that or i would just use mek gunz to hide while holding the objective, without ever shooting with them.
Although one Mek Gun in my battle 2 against Orks did kill the enemy Ghaz so that was kind of fun.
Uhm, star weavers and void weavers are the same model, and if you have a harlequin player who regularly plays 3k games or larger, they can easily pull that many models from their regular collection..
Same kit, not same model. Loadout are different and tournaments enforce WYSIWYG.
Also, harlequins do need their transports, they can't proxy them as voidweavers. The list posted in Warhammer Community had 13 models between star and voidweavers IIRC. Which is insane, even for those who regularly play 3k games.
Oh, and balance update will hit them really soon. So no, I'm not convinced that voidweaver spam is or will be a thing.
Unfortunately tau, tyranids and custodes I don't think they'll get what they deserve soon enough, balance update doesn't provide lots of points hikes.
Generaly - orks are on 54% win rate in top 10! Well, actually… they are 10th but n.1 is a single dude with 100% rate, so we are de facto 9th And one mighty victory!
Fantasia Fanatic XLI - 8th – Björn Eriksson - ES Speed Mob. Just one unit of Koptas and the target is obviously to score via TTL (koptas, big blobs of MSJ and RSB) + score the Data via Warbikers in squads of 6.
+ HQ +
Warboss on Warbike [6 PL, -2CP, 115pts]:
4. Brutal but Kunnin, Da Killa Klaw, Power Klaw, Stratagem: Big Boss, Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz
+ Fast Attack +
Warbikers [8 PL, 160pts]:
Boss Nob: Power Klaw [10pts], 5x Warbiker w/ Choppa
Warbikers [8 PL, 160pts]:
Boss Nob: Power Klaw [10pts], 5x Warbiker w/ Choppa
Warbikers [8 PL, 150pts]:
Boss Nob, 5x Warbiker w/ Choppa
++ Total: [101 PL, 7CP, 2,000pts] ++
Midtcon GT40K Andreas Drachmann – Orks – 1st Place - already metioned by Bearddragon. The point of this list is feth with opponent obsec via Badskull banner Warboss on Bike with Obsec kombo. I dunno if he plays TTL because he has 2 good squads - RSBs and Koptas but one non-forcefield Wazboom. Maybe 10 VP is enough…
Grimdark Open - 7th – Juan Manuel Sánchez Molina – Orks: Goff MECHA Pressure with Ghaz. Just a single unit of Beastsnaga boyz. The rest are mostly VEHICLES - Bonebreaker!, double killrig, 3 squads of Koptas, 3 squads of Squigriders and large mob of MSJ! More a Speedwaaagh than waaagh! I like it!
Sorry Semper, it seems there is just a single squad of infantry in all this lists! It' s a pitty! Despite the fact I don' t play infantry at all right now, I like our boyz of all kinds!
Speedmob replaces kultur not klan and only on speedfreak units.. your wagons and aircraft still benefit from klan kultur since they can’t get adrenaline junkies special rule (still not a kultur).
This basically only means freebooters which let speedfreak units trigger the +1 to hit for aircraft/wagons or any other klan for relics Strats and warlord traits.
Furthermore speedmob allows you to stack the speed mob special rule adrenaline junkies (still not a klan or kultur) with specialist mob (which does replace klan and thus kultur).. so you can have madboy bikers, flyboy aircraft, boomboy deffkoptas, or pyromaniac kustom boosta blastas and it all stacks w adrenaline junkies….. except specialist mobs don’t trigger freebooter kultur or allow you to use klan specific Strats like evilsun fire and fade strat.
.. and via Klan you get the acces to the Strategems and Relics and Warlord traits.
So the Speed Mob is played generaly as
Evil Sunz - to get move after shooting strategem and interesting relic and trait
Blood Axe - to be able to redeploy or hide in the reserves more than half of your army
Freeboota - to do the obsec trick with the banner and maybe get the +1 to hit on your planes.
Just one another list, but it' s Mark Perry and it' s interesting!
Grand Onslaught 3 - 6th – Mark Perry – FB vehicle heavy list, but not the Speed Mob. Battlewagons with various Kannons!! And Lobas!!! and triple Lootas! And big blob of Tankbustas. Badskull Banner included of course! What comes next? Flashgitz?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mark Perry list makes me to find the profiles of those cannons and lobbas and well, they are really bad. On the other side, they are bloody cheap. Except Da Booma everything is 5p a piece.
Just one another list, but it' s Mark Perry and it' s interesting!
Grand Onslaught 3 - 6th – Mark Perry – FB vehicle heavy list, but not the Speed Mob. Battlewagons with various Kannons!! And Lobas!!! and triple Lootas! And big blob of Tankbustas. Badskull Banner included of course! What comes next? Flashgitz?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mark Perry list makes me to find the profiles of those cannons and lobbas and well, they are really bad. On the other side, they are bloody cheap. Except Da Booma everything is 5p a piece.
Pretty cool seeing Sisters, Necrons, Chaos Daemons and Blood Angels getting some placements.
I'd be really interested to see BatReps for Perry's games, as it's a really oddball list outside of the FA/Flyer slot centric core compared to what's cemented itself as the current competitive Ork builds.
I can vaguely see the usefulness of the kannon/lobba on a wagon in order to add a tiny bit more shooting power, but only if you just have the points leftover with nowhere else to spend them. Kind of like a big shoota on a boys mob.
:EDIT:
I've just noticed all of the big shootas on the wagons. What on earth is this list
Tomsug wrote: Mark Perry list makes me to find the profiles of those cannons and lobbas and well, they are really bad. On the other side, they are bloody cheap. Except Da Booma everything is 5p a piece.
Speedwaagh! with the number of Big Shootas and other cheap Dakka guns isn´t bad. Have enjoyed that too in test play, but not to this degree. I'd say this is a callback to the Alpha strike Freeboota buggy list. Move up, shoot everything up T1 and T2 and hope it´s enough.
Tomsug wrote: Mark Perry list makes me to find the profiles of those cannons and lobbas and well, they are really bad. On the other side, they are bloody cheap. Except Da Booma everything is 5p a piece.
Speedwaagh! with the number of Big Shootas and other cheap Dakka guns isn´t bad. Have enjoyed that too in test play, but not to this degree. I'd say this is a callback to the Alpha strike Freeboota buggy list. Move up, shoot everything up T1 and T2 and hope it´s enough.
The odd part of that list, more than the cheap-ish upgrades on the wagons, is the massive investment of points in shooty units that don't benefit from speedwaaagh, only from the freebooter trait. And no BS4+ units, that can't get the +1 to hit anyway such mek gunz, to trigger to trait.
I gotta say the fact an Ork won a tournament should give us some positivity. The nerf bat is coming for the s tiers. The outlook is rosy for the greenskins.
I've got a RTT coming up in two weeks with the only "concern" being custodes and they'll probably take a hit.
Now all I need is a GT level event in South America. If anyone hears of one let me know
If the Tankbustas and Lootas are in the Battlewagons, would they not benefit from Speedwaaagh! per the core book FAQ page 8 Shooting Whilst Embarked on a Transport, #9?
That would make the Lootas Dakka 4/3 with -2 AP, and give the Tankbustas -3AP?
I'm pretty new and don't understand how everything interacts, but this seems like it would be the case.
dorath wrote: If the Tankbustas and Lootas are in the Battlewagons, would they not benefit from Speedwaaagh! per the core book FAQ page 8 Shooting Whilst Embarked on a Transport, #9?
That would make the Lootas Dakka 4/3 with -2 AP, and give the Tankbustas -3AP?
I'm pretty new and don't understand how everything interacts, but this seems like it would be the case.
I think the general take is that the extra AP is not a modifier to a dice roll and therefore is not conferred to passengers. It's not super clear though.
dorath wrote: If the Tankbustas and Lootas are in the Battlewagons, would they not benefit from Speedwaaagh! per the core book FAQ page 8 Shooting Whilst Embarked on a Transport, #9?
That would make the Lootas Dakka 4/3 with -2 AP, and give the Tankbustas -3AP?
I'm pretty new and don't understand how everything interacts, but this seems like it would be the case.
I think the general take is that the extra AP is not a modifier to a dice roll and therefore is not conferred to passengers. It's not super clear though.
If im not mistaken, it says its a modifier if it modifies the die roll to your ranged attack.
A ranged attack is a hit roll, wound roll, save roll and the damage roll. By all means, the save roll your opponent makes belongs to your "ranged attack" and as far as im aware, should thus count towards the passengers receiving the AP modifier. I dont think the question is whether its a modifier or not, because it is, it clearly modifies a save roll of 3 which becomes a save roll of 4 with a -1AP, in the same way you could get +1 to hit or -1 to hit, i think the question is whether it counts towards a modifier in YOUR ranged attack, when its your opponent that has to make the roll and not you. I thought the issue was that your opponent made the roll and not you.
I would still say it does, because as per what an attack is, a save roll is part of it.
If a Transport model is under the effects of a modifier to its
ranged attacks (such as a modifier to its hit rolls, wound rolls,
etc.) the same modifier applies each time an embarked model
makes a ranged attack.
So it doesn't necessarily only modify rolls. The two examples are rolls, but the 'etc' implies there must be things other than hit and wound rolls else there is no reason to include the 'etc'.
My main take here is that while I have not participated in a tournament yet, this is the sort of thing I should ask the TO before betting my list on it.
If a Transport model is under the effects of an ability which
would apply a modifier to a dice roll made when making a
ranged attack (such as a modifier to its hit rolls, wound rolls,
etc.) the same modifier applies each time an embarked model
makes a ranged attack.
Jidmah wrote: I agree with that assessment, but the extra AP is modifying a characteristic of a weapon, not the roll itself.
It's similar to how degrading BS of a raider doesn't affect the passengers shooting from the damaged transport.
i see where you are going.
I wish that GW wouldnt be such tea pots about FAQs its like: Hey guys! we finally made it clear with an FAQ!
except its not clear at all. i mean it cleared up the trukk boyz +1 to hit for vehicles, sure and other things. but it keeps the AP part pretty murky. Why not just add a note stating: yes it works, or no it doesnt.
Jidmah wrote: I agree with that assessment, but the extra AP is modifying a characteristic of a weapon, not the roll itself.
It's similar to how degrading BS of a raider doesn't affect the passengers shooting from the damaged transport.
i see where you are going.
I wish that GW wouldnt be such tea pots about FAQs its like: Hey guys! we finally made it clear with an FAQ!
except its not clear at all. i mean it cleared up the trukk boyz +1 to hit for vehicles, sure and other things. but it keeps the AP part pretty murky. Why not just add a note stating: yes it works, or no it doesnt.
I am not sure what you don't understand or is unclear. Jidmah already posted the rule and it mention ALL DICE MODIFIERS.
Jidmah wrote: I agree with that assessment, but the extra AP is modifying a characteristic of a weapon, not the roll itself.
It's similar to how degrading BS of a raider doesn't affect the passengers shooting from the damaged transport.
i see where you are going.
I wish that GW wouldnt be such tea pots about FAQs its like: Hey guys! we finally made it clear with an FAQ!
except its not clear at all. i mean it cleared up the trukk boyz +1 to hit for vehicles, sure and other things. but it keeps the AP part pretty murky. Why not just add a note stating: yes it works, or no it doesnt.
I am not sure what you don't understand or is unclear. Jidmah already posted the rule and it mention ALL MODIFIERS.
I say AP is a modifier to your ranged attack because it actively changes the die you need from a 3+ to a 4+ if i get 1 extra AP while shooting at a standard space marine.
Jidmah says that it may not work that way because it modifies the characteristics of the weapon itself. And by all means he might be correct.
I say its murky waters still because it says: "If a Transport model is under the effects of an ability which would apply a modifier to a dice roll made when making a ranged attack (such as a modifier to its hit rolls, wound rolls, etc.) the same modifier applies each time an embarked model makes a ranged attack." As i see it, its within the realms of ranged attacks (a ranged attack being a hit roll, wound roll, save roll, damage roll and technically damage allocation i suppose). Save rolls (which are directly affected by AP) are part of that ranged attack that im making, even though my opponent has to make the roll. Does AP being a weapon characteristic stop it from working as a modifier even though it modifies my opponents save roll? I dont know. I would like to believe that it does, but im open for the idea that it doesnt. Because at the end of the day, i dont know. Nor do half the ork community.
As far as im aware theres no clear cut list of all modifiers because it ends with etc. (et cetera or in common folk tongue, "so on and so on"). Like 33% of the ork players i meet, even online, dont even know that modifiers given to a vehicle is given to the passengers, so that narrows it sort of down to a very small group of people you can even discuss these things with. Because at the end of the day, not many other factions except for orks make use of open topped transports where this could be relevant to begin with.
So no, i DONT think its clear cut whether you are meant to get -1AP on shoota boyz in a vehicle during a speedwaaagh or not. Because of anything, GWs writing skills is like that of a toddler. They always over complicate things. As things are right now, im not giving my infantry an extra AP, nor did i do that by the previous FAQ. I was hoping this FAQ made me smarter but it didnt.
Being part of the Ork group on facebook where the admin pinned a post stating that you DO indeed get the extra AP just makes it even more confusing. So you have some orks that says: sure it works, and others that says: nah it dont work. And i cant make a list based on: it could work, or it might not work". So i hate that GW has to be so ambiguous about what they want.
I just want it to be clear so that we can all agree on how it works. And the reason people dont agree is because GW write things in a less than precise way.
No doubt it's not as clear as it could be. Glad I just play speed mob.
Hoping orks don't get in the cross fire with next week's nerfs. I'm particularly worried about deffkoptas getting stung if they nerf flyers to get custodes and quins.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has anyone had much luck with the behind enemy lines and deploy teleport Homer combo for speed mob? I'm running a double wazbomm, bike and deffkopta heavy mono detachment.
I'm currently focusing on RnD and engage but if I change my wartrike for a warboss on bike (with Ard as nails) it would pivot my army to homers and behind enemy lines.
This would mean dropping my current ES warlord trait which would make me think about running the army as freebootas.(super useful for the relic and to help my wazbomms hit something
Behind enemy lines excludes Aircraft and Teleport homers only finishes at the end of your turn if you are TROOPs, but our bikes only get ObSec
So both Secondaries are pretty bad with Speedmob.
Jidmah wrote: I agree with that assessment, but the extra AP is modifying a characteristic of a weapon, not the roll itself.
It's similar to how degrading BS of a raider doesn't affect the passengers shooting from the damaged transport.
i see where you are going.
I wish that GW wouldnt be such tea pots about FAQs its like: Hey guys! we finally made it clear with an FAQ!
except its not clear at all. i mean it cleared up the trukk boyz +1 to hit for vehicles, sure and other things. but it keeps the AP part pretty murky. Why not just add a note stating: yes it works, or no it doesnt.
I am not sure what you don't understand or is unclear. Jidmah already posted the rule and it mention ALL MODIFIERS.
I say AP is a modifier to your ranged attack because it actively changes the die you need from a 3+ to a 4+ if i get 1 extra AP while shooting at a standard space marine.
Jidmah says that it may not work that way because it modifies the characteristics of the weapon itself. And by all means he might be correct.
I say its murky waters still because it says:
"If a Transport model is under the effects of an ability which
would apply a modifier to a dice roll made when making a
ranged attack (such as a modifier to its hit rolls, wound rolls,
etc.) the same modifier applies each time an embarked model
makes a ranged attack."
As i see it, its within the realms of ranged attacks (a ranged attack being a hit roll, wound roll, save roll, damage roll and technically damage allocation i suppose). Save rolls (which are directly affected by AP) are part of that ranged attack that im making, even though my opponent has to make the roll. Does AP being a weapon characteristic stop it from working as a modifier even though it modifies my opponents save roll? I dont know. I would like to believe that it does, but im open for the idea that it doesnt. Because at the end of the day, i dont know. Nor do half the ork community.
As far as im aware theres no clear cut list of all modifiers because it ends with etc. (et cetera or in common folk tongue, "so on and so on"). Like 33% of the ork players i meet, even online, dont even know that modifiers given to a vehicle is given to the passengers, so that narrows it sort of down to a very small group of people you can even discuss these things with. Because at the end of the day, not many other factions except for orks make use of open topped transports where this could be relevant to begin with.
So no, i DONT think its clear cut whether you are meant to get -1AP on shoota boyz in a vehicle during a speedwaaagh or not. Because of anything, GWs writing skills is like that of a toddler. They always over complicate things. As things are right now, im not giving my infantry an extra AP, nor did i do that by the previous FAQ. I was hoping this FAQ made me smarter but it didnt.
Being part of the Ork group on facebook where the admin pinned a post stating that you DO indeed get the extra AP just makes it even more confusing. So you have some orks that says: sure it works, and others that says: nah it dont work. And i cant make a list based on: it could work, or it might not work". So i hate that GW has to be so ambiguous about what they want.
I just want it to be clear so that we can all agree on how it works. And the reason people dont agree is because GW write things in a less than precise way.
You seem to have not picked up the DICE i forgot to add and edited afterwards... my bad there.
Your conclusion is correct and there is a small piece at the end of the article that dives a bit on something similar with ignore AP , -1 AP is a characteristics modifier, so no the boarded models don't get it that modifier.
Also scummy edit but just to clarify further, i assume your talking about Bad Moons trait:
"Each time a model with this kultur makes a ranged attack, on an unmodified wound roll of 6, improve the Armour Penetration characteristic of that attack by 1." This is where the confusion might be coming from has ypu can see it mentions the characteristics not the roll itself
I do agree it's easy to get confused, even i though the same ate first, but the link i posted it makes the distinction between the 2 types of modifiers available.
I do have a thought coming up though that if a stratagem that applies DICE modifiers applied to the transport also affect's the embarked units, something like the opportunist stratagem from Deathskulls?
One last Edit i promise Question to the old guard, but the way i read this is that characteristic modifier are independent of dice modifiers, does that mean that something like a shockattack dragsta with it's rule set's ballistic skill to it's main weapon to 3 and the +1 from freebota can be added on top? I though this was not possible, am i reading this wrong? Or is it just wishful thinking from my part?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also whish to post 2 new list available for those that do not wish to use the army of renown
Grotrebel wrote: Behind enemy lines excludes Aircraft and Teleport homers only finishes at the end of your turn if you are TROOPs, but our bikes only get ObSec
So both Secondaries are pretty bad with Speedmob.
Agree. I play Homers just in case of wide deployment, small, slow and non-shooting opponent and crazy mood.
Anyway. I was on a tournament today.
ES speed mob. 16 players. I finished 7. with w-l-w
1. Custodes - mission 31. win. For some reason the guy had no bikes. Just a bunch of dreadnoughts and infantry. Bad shooting and slow. Terribly hard to kill. Easy to score with the speedmob via Engage, TTL and Bitz.
2. Stampede - mission 11. Stampede first time in my life! Lost. The only game I put the wazbooms and Koptas in DS and it was a bad decision. The Bugs have too many wounds. I need to kill tham asap. In deep deployments, it was possible to screen their alpha strike out to protect my koptas and wazbooms. And his bugs screened out my Koptas and Wazbooms so de facto I was not able to shoot him efectively for 2 turns. That was bad.
3. Necrons - mission 33. Nice victory. Despite some stupid fails in positioning on my side, he was wiped on the end. Next time I should do it faster.
Lessons learned
- Engage with wazbooms and Koptas in DS is a very stupid idea. Can' t score T1 and if they screen you out, you cannot score it T2 either.
- There is really no reason to pay CP for extra relic and trait on second warbos. It ' s just a cool Kannonfutter with the obsec. Dies anyway.
- crucial is to have more smaller units to feed the opponent, control, screen, score.
- simple Scrapjet hits like a wet noodl mostly.
- I like the speedmob. It is fun to play. Lot of movement, no auras, no rerolls. Cool
Automatically Appended Next Post: - Badskull Banner Warboss on Warbike is definitely something to consider. Againts some builds (custodes) pretty crucial.
On the end the only I use from ES is Move after Shooting. The rest is very situational and mostly useless.
Jidmah wrote: I agree with that assessment, but the extra AP is modifying a characteristic of a weapon, not the roll itself.
It's similar to how degrading BS of a raider doesn't affect the passengers shooting from the damaged transport.
i see where you are going.
I wish that GW wouldnt be such tea pots about FAQs its like: Hey guys! we finally made it clear with an FAQ!
except its not clear at all. i mean it cleared up the trukk boyz +1 to hit for vehicles, sure and other things. but it keeps the AP part pretty murky. Why not just add a note stating: yes it works, or no it doesnt.
I am not sure what you don't understand or is unclear. Jidmah already posted the rule and it mention ALL MODIFIERS.
I say AP is a modifier to your ranged attack because it actively changes the die you need from a 3+ to a 4+ if i get 1 extra AP while shooting at a standard space marine.
Jidmah says that it may not work that way because it modifies the characteristics of the weapon itself. And by all means he might be correct.
I say its murky waters still because it says: "If a Transport model is under the effects of an ability which would apply a modifier to a dice roll made when making a ranged attack (such as a modifier to its hit rolls, wound rolls, etc.) the same modifier applies each time an embarked model makes a ranged attack." As i see it, its within the realms of ranged attacks (a ranged attack being a hit roll, wound roll, save roll, damage roll and technically damage allocation i suppose). Save rolls (which are directly affected by AP) are part of that ranged attack that im making, even though my opponent has to make the roll. Does AP being a weapon characteristic stop it from working as a modifier even though it modifies my opponents save roll? I dont know. I would like to believe that it does, but im open for the idea that it doesnt. Because at the end of the day, i dont know. Nor do half the ork community.
As far as im aware theres no clear cut list of all modifiers because it ends with etc. (et cetera or in common folk tongue, "so on and so on"). Like 33% of the ork players i meet, even online, dont even know that modifiers given to a vehicle is given to the passengers, so that narrows it sort of down to a very small group of people you can even discuss these things with. Because at the end of the day, not many other factions except for orks make use of open topped transports where this could be relevant to begin with.
So no, i DONT think its clear cut whether you are meant to get -1AP on shoota boyz in a vehicle during a speedwaaagh or not. Because of anything, GWs writing skills is like that of a toddler. They always over complicate things. As things are right now, im not giving my infantry an extra AP, nor did i do that by the previous FAQ. I was hoping this FAQ made me smarter but it didnt.
Being part of the Ork group on facebook where the admin pinned a post stating that you DO indeed get the extra AP just makes it even more confusing. So you have some orks that says: sure it works, and others that says: nah it dont work. And i cant make a list based on: it could work, or it might not work". So i hate that GW has to be so ambiguous about what they want.
I just want it to be clear so that we can all agree on how it works. And the reason people dont agree is because GW write things in a less than precise way.
You seem to have not picked up the DICE i forgot to add and edited afterwards... my bad there.
Your conclusion is correct and there is a small piece at the end of the article that dives a bit on something similar with ignore AP , -1 AP is a characteristics modifier, so no the boarded models don't get it that modifier.
Also scummy edit but just to clarify further, i assume your talking about Bad Moons trait: "Each time a model with this kultur makes a ranged attack, on an unmodified wound roll of 6, improve the Armour Penetration characteristic of that attack by 1." This is where the confusion might be coming from has ypu can see it mentions the characteristics not the roll itself
I do agree it's easy to get confused, even i though the same ate first, but the link i posted it makes the distinction between the 2 types of modifiers available.
I do have a thought coming up though that if a stratagem that applies DICE modifiers applied to the transport also affect's the embarked units, something like the opportunist stratagem from Deathskulls?
One last Edit i promise Question to the old guard, but the way i read this is that characteristic modifier are independent of dice modifiers, does that mean that something like a shockattack dragsta with it's rule set's ballistic skill to it's main weapon to 3 and the +1 from freebota can be added on top? I though this was not possible, am i reading this wrong? Or is it just wishful thinking from my part?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also whish to post 2 new list available for those that do not wish to use the army of renown
Starts at 3:07, a Deathskull army and a Goff pressure
Deathskull takes advantage of opportunist with comb-skorcha from meganobz
Goff has a really nice squigboyz/battlewagon
I really liked both.
Im not talking about bad moon traits? I would mention it if i were. Units in vehicles still get their own detatchment rules so obviously your shoota boys get -1AP on wound rolls of 6 while sitting in a trukk. So yes the bad moon trait is still usable in vehicles.
Im purely talking about units sitting in a vehicle during a Speed waaagh gaining the extra AP value. Its not kulture related. Also i dont see anywhere in the article that explains what you are talking about. Im not saying it isnt there, i just dont see it. An article not related to AP modifiers but specifically talking about AP ignoring abilities dont seem to me to correlate to each other. I dont see the connection between whether AP is a modifier or not based on an article related to ignoring AP values.
The only thing i would get from it is the same thing jidmah talked about earlier, that its a characteristic, and characteristics arent modifiers. And while i agree to that, the fact also still remains that the extra AP DOES modify your enemys save roll by making the dice roll they have to get to save the unit worse. So i would say its still up to debate.
If a vehicle has a modifier to its dice roll during a ranged attack (ranged attack being a hit roll, wound roll, save roll, damage roll), the embarked units receive the same modifier. Making someones save roll worse is by all means a modifier as it modifies their save roll. At the very least its still debatable i would say, especially because it ends with "etc" after mentioning hit rolls and wound rolls. It never fully explains whether save rolls are part of it or not which would be related to AP then.
Im not talking about bad moon traits? I would mention it if i were. Units in vehicles still get their own detatchment rules so obviously your shoota boys get -1AP on wound rolls of 6 while sitting in a trukk. So yes the bad moon trait is still usable in vehicles.
Im purely talking about units sitting in a vehicle during a Speed waaagh gaining the extra AP value. Its not kulture related. Also i dont see anywhere in the article that explains what you are talking about. Im not saying it isnt there, i just dont see it. An article not related to AP modifiers but specifically talking about AP ignoring abilities dont seem to me to correlate to each other. I dont see the connection between whether AP is a modifier or not based on an article related to ignoring AP values.
The only thing i would get from it is the same thing jidmah talked about earlier, that its a characteristic, and characteristics arent modifiers. And while i agree to that, the fact also still remains that the extra AP DOES modify your enemys save roll by making the dice roll they have to get to save the unit worse. So i would say its still up to debate.
If a vehicle has a modifier to its dice roll during a ranged attack (ranged attack being a hit roll, wound roll, save roll, damage roll), the embarked units receive the same modifier. Making someones save roll worse is by all means a modifier as it modifies their save roll. At the very least its still debatable i would say, especially because it ends with "etc" after mentioning hit rolls and wound rolls. It never fully explains whether save rolls are part of it or not which would be related to AP then.
I don't exactly see it your way. What i understood from the article is that there are 2 types of modifiers. Characteristic and dice. As an example characteristic affects the profile while dice affects a dice. I am reading as RAW and the reason i though you mentioned Bad Moonz is because it clary mentions that it changes the characteristics of the attacks. I wish to remind you that in rule page 200 and 203 it says "all characteristic modifiers are cumulative." this is an important distinction because dice modifiers are not stackable as in rule page 18 and 220 where it states that hit and wound roles are not stackable.
So the first stipulation is reading the rule, is it a dice or characteristic modifier. In the rule it says dice so I go by that as in RAW.
I also not sure your right about Bad Moons triggering for embarked, this would cause a precedent where relics and traits from warlords would then be legal to trigger. I am trying to find the rule, but my understanding when a model is embarked it is effectively none existent so no trait can affect it.
For this reason anything from inside the vehicle would not affect it in anyway or shape unless it states otherwise in the rule, what i believe you can argue is because the vehicle is doing ranged attacks and is of bad moons culture the attacks should take the AP but even that would be a stretch because we are back to the what is a characteristic or a dice roll that i mentioned before.
Yes the AP does modify the dice roll but you have to understand that dice rolls are not stackable else AP would not stack that's the other reason for me to classify it as a characteristic modifier.
I also don't think the waaagh bonus affects the embarked units:
1.ORKS models from your army do not suffer the penalty incurred to their hit rolls for firing Assault weapons in the same turn their unit Advanced. Each time an ORKS VEHICLE or ORKS BIKER model from your army shoots with a Dakka weapon, make 1 additional attack with that weapon.
2.Each time a model in an ORKS VEHICLE or ORKS BIKER unit from your army makes a ranged attack, improve the Armour Penetration characteristic of that attack by 1.
the second line of the rule reads characteristics, this is why i made the distinction between characteristic rolls and dice ones.
"Any abilities (including Detachment abilities) that models in an embarked unit have, or that their weapons have, continue to apply when they make ranged attacks."
And again, you could be right about the AP thing.
But as things are right now I would argue you could also be wrong. So i just dont make any lists revolving around the issue. I run vehicle heavy freebootas or goff infantry. I dont have enough vehicles for an actual army of renown though.
head page 8
*Page 363, Rare Rules
Shooting Whilst Embarked on a Transport
Has you can see the only thing that GW did was adding the dice in front of the modifier... in other words, if i am right, it's basically another nerf, because the previous rule stated ANY modifier so it actually made things more complex
Also yeah the rule you mentioned makes so that Bad Moons trait applies but the waagh buff will not.
head page 8 *Page 363, Rare Rules Shooting Whilst Embarked on a Transport
Has you can see the only thing that GW did was adding the dice in front of the modifier... in other words, if i am right, it's basically another nerf, because the previous rule stated ANY modifier so it actually made things more complex
exactly. GW makes things super complicated for no reason.
IF you get AP from being embarked in a vehicle during a speed waaagh, then that opens up for a multitude of potential combos. But for as long as its not clear, we cant open up for those combos and make lists based around it.
a dedicated Ork FAQ stating: IT EFFING WORKS! would be really appreciated! hell, just stating that it DOESNT work would be great too. Then i dont need to think about it anymore and can move on.
head page 8
*Page 363, Rare Rules
Shooting Whilst Embarked on a Transport
Has you can see the only thing that GW did was adding the dice in front of the modifier... in other words, if i am right, it's basically another nerf, because the previous rule stated ANY modifier so it actually made things more complex
exactly. GW makes things super complicated for no reason.
IF you get AP from being embarked in a vehicle during a speed waaagh, then that opens up for a multitude of potential combos. But for as long as its not clear, we cant open up for those combos and make lists based around it.
a dedicated Ork FAQ stating: IT EFFING WORKS! would be really appreciated! hell, just stating that it DOESNT work would be great too. Then i dont need to think about it anymore and can move on.
We are talking GW, your expecting competece from them is a stretch... But yeah i know what you mean. But here is a bit you might want to think about the shockattack dragsta might effectively hit on 2 with freebota and still be legal, i can't find anything saying otherwise
head page 8
*Page 363, Rare Rules
Shooting Whilst Embarked on a Transport
Has you can see the only thing that GW did was adding the dice in front of the modifier... in other words, if i am right, it's basically another nerf, because the previous rule stated ANY modifier so it actually made things more complex
exactly. GW makes things super complicated for no reason.
IF you get AP from being embarked in a vehicle during a speed waaagh, then that opens up for a multitude of potential combos. But for as long as its not clear, we cant open up for those combos and make lists based around it.
a dedicated Ork FAQ stating: IT EFFING WORKS! would be really appreciated! hell, just stating that it DOESNT work would be great too. Then i dont need to think about it anymore and can move on.
We are talking GW, your expecting competece from them is a stretch... But yeah i know what you mean. But here is a bit you might want to think about the shockattack dragsta might effectively hit on 2 with freebota and still be legal, i can't find anything saying otherwise
I think everyone plays it that way. It doesnt get +2 to hit as it did in 8th edition it hits as if it had a ballistic skill of 3. If its ballistic skill is 3 it can still get +1 to hit to hit on 2s so yea.
I had never looked at the SJD like that before...i don't see why it would be illegal honestly. The Freeboota kulture says
each time an attack is made by another FREEBOOTERZ unit with this kultur from your army, add 1 to that attack's hit roll.
And the special rule for SJD is
Each time a model from this unit makes an attack with a kustom shokk rifle, treat that model as having a Ballistic Skill characteristic of 3+.
So the first rule from the SJD says you treat the model as BS3 for using the Shokk Rifle. And Freeboota says +1 to hit. So yeah, with the SJD's main gun, you hit on 2s if the kulture procs.
SemperMortis wrote: I had never looked at the SJD like that before...i don't see why it would be illegal honestly. The Freeboota kulture says
each time an attack is made by another FREEBOOTERZ unit with this kultur from your army, add 1 to that attack's hit roll.
And the special rule for SJD is
Each time a model from this unit makes an attack with a kustom shokk rifle, treat that model as having a Ballistic Skill characteristic of 3+.
So the first rule from the SJD says you treat the model as BS3 for using the Shokk Rifle. And Freeboota says +1 to hit. So yeah, with the SJD's main gun, you hit on 2s if the kulture procs.
Local shop i played before they said it was illegal, since i was new to the scene i went with it.. so i was trying to figure out where was the rule that they mentioned.. that's why things feel so poorly written for me, since there is all these details you need to know and is not very explicit. Like hidden mechanics. I hate those in games.
I dont feel like the dragsta rule is too complicated. Your local shop was factually wrong. you cant get more than +1 to hit from your ballistic characteristic, but the dragsta does have ballistic skill 3 when using the rifle (not the rokkits though).
So you should be able to get +1 to hit from ballistic skill 3.
Exactly. The wording of SJD in old codex was fixed for this pourpose when the 9th ed rules came out. It used to be “add 2 to BS” and they changed it “consider the BS of this weapon as 3+” which is a go around formulation to avoid “max +/-1 to hit”.
Might have been a confusion from 8th then, they had several editions in their belt, but none was a true ork player... It's in the past and now i know better. Live and learn.
Long story short, HOLY CRAP lol. The sheer dakka they can put out is ridiculous. They are almost always +1 ballistic skill, they are almost always buffed with re-rolls etc, I think the only way you have a chance is to get in their face as quickly as possible and shut down their shooting to the greatest extent possible.
The bad news is....they can shoot in combat LOL. And its only -1 to hit for heavy weapons so they are deadly as all hell. To add insult to injury, they can use a strat to turn their guns on firewarriors into Pistol 2. That means in the shooting phase, if you consolidated into them or they had a few leftover, each firewarrior gets 3 shots at S5 AP-2 hitting on 4s. Let that sink in for a minute!
Best advice I can give you is to target a single squad of suits and just pour everything you have as far as ranged dmg into it. Your goal is to pop as many of his drones as possible so that when you do get into CC your guys have a chance of putting some hurt on those suits. More bad news, they mostly all have invuln saves and FNPs thanks to the ethereal. Also...more bad news, one of hte suits will be 2+ armor saves so he will be more durable than you expect.
One tactic I used which worked wonders was to suicide a unit of trukk boyz or kommandos into a unit to eat their overwatch and then bum rush multiple units with my warboss on warbike. He will murder some suits and live until your opponents turn at the least. And here is the best part, he either gets to fight again in the tau turn OR he dies in the shooting phase while in engagement range which means you can use the fight on death strat to murder more suits. Two separate games I got this trick to work and My warboss on warbike murdered close to 250-300pts of Suits both times.
Remember to keep a watch out for the Tau melee commander with onager fist and CC flamer. Against a squishy CC character or unit he will mulch them, against a durable warboss (Cybork and -1 to wound) he mostly bounces off but its still important to not under-estimate him.
Grotrebel wrote: Behind enemy lines excludes Aircraft and Teleport homers only finishes at the end of your turn if you are TROOPs, but our bikes only get ObSec
So both Secondaries are pretty bad with Speedmob.
Ya I'd look at using the warboss on bike to do homers, as he can't be targeted unless he's the closest. Tops out at 14 points (T2 2 points then 12 over t3,4&5)
I personally enjoy deep striking 2 squads of deffkoptas and my two wazbomms (at least the option to) which makes engage harder but combines well with my 3 large bike squads and warboss on bike who will be in a good position to get behind enemy lines
head page 8
*Page 363, Rare Rules
Shooting Whilst Embarked on a Transport
Has you can see the only thing that GW did was adding the dice in front of the modifier... in other words, if i am right, it's basically another nerf, because the previous rule stated ANY modifier so it actually made things more complex
exactly. GW makes things super complicated for no reason.
IF you get AP from being embarked in a vehicle during a speed waaagh, then that opens up for a multitude of potential combos. But for as long as its not clear, we cant open up for those combos and make lists based around it.
a dedicated Ork FAQ stating: IT EFFING WORKS! would be really appreciated! hell, just stating that it DOESNT work would be great too. Then i dont need to think about it anymore and can move on.
AP is a characteristic so you don't get it from being embarked in a vehicle during a speed waaagh, only dice modifiers are passed down, not characteristic modifiers like AP, Strength, Leadership etc
I think beardedragon's point was that GW should just spell it out properly in the a FAQ... which kind of is the job of a document called "Frequently Asked Questions".
Hello all,
It’s been a rough few weeks but hopefully going to get a game in soon. I’ll be playing against Drukhari this time.
I’m toying with the idea of buying a flyer, I’m torn between a Wazbom to take out harder targets early (barges, cronos, talos etc) or a Dakkajet to deal with the infantry. I’m assuming all his infantry will be in transports at the start.
Any advice appreciated, also if this is a stupid idea let me know.
Yeah, Wazboms are really good because they address one of the core weakness of Orks having mostly short ranged weaponry that is heavily affected by -1BS and -1D effects, which is a consistently high damage weapon that goes beyond flat 3 damage with high BS (by Orky standards) and it's mobile enough to get past LoS blocking terrain to get to its targets.
DoktaRoksta wrote: Hello all,
It’s been a rough few weeks but hopefully going to get a game in soon. I’ll be playing against Drukhari this time.
I’m toying with the idea of buying a flyer, I’m torn between a Wazbom to take out harder targets early (barges, cronos, talos etc) or a Dakkajet to deal with the infantry. I’m assuming all his infantry will be in transports at the start.
Any advice appreciated, also if this is a stupid idea let me know.
It really depends on the rest of your army and what your opponents field. Both flyers are amazing but aim at different targets. Personally, for a TAC list with just one flyer, I favor the dakkajet simply because it's dirty cheap and I already have tons of S8 shots thanks to mek gunz, koptas and buggies while S5-S6 shots are basically just the bikes and something on the buggies.
Tomsug wrote: Waznoom is now a pure gold, but regarding the model - magnetize! It' s essential, because what flyier is the best change every 6 month.
Magnetizing a flyer isnt a small job though
I disagree. Fliers were the second model I ever tried to magnetize and it's fairly easy to do. The only thing that need drilling are the supa-shootas on the wings, everything else can just be solved by putting strong magnets inside wings, bombs or hull and stick smaller magnets with super-glue or greenstuff to whatever part you want to magnetize.
The only challenge is ordering the right size of magnets.
Tomsug wrote: Waznoom is now a pure gold, but regarding the model - magnetize! It' s essential, because what flyier is the best change every 6 month.
Magnetizing a flyer isnt a small job though
I disagree. Fliers were the second model I ever tried to magnetize and it's fairly easy to do. The only thing that need drilling are the supa-shootas on the wings, everything else can just be solved by putting strong magnets inside wings, bombs or hull and stick smaller magnets with super-glue or greenstuff to whatever part you want to magnetize.
The only challenge is ordering the right size of magnets.
i feel like magnetizing a flyer so it can be both a dakkajet AND a wazbom sounds like a really large endavour. The two planes dont even look alike.
Tomsug wrote: Waznoom is now a pure gold, but regarding the model - magnetize! It' s essential, because what flyier is the best change every 6 month.
Magnetizing a flyer isnt a small job though
I disagree. Fliers were the second model I ever tried to magnetize and it's fairly easy to do. The only thing that need drilling are the supa-shootas on the wings, everything else can just be solved by putting strong magnets inside wings, bombs or hull and stick smaller magnets with super-glue or greenstuff to whatever part you want to magnetize.
The only challenge is ordering the right size of magnets.
i feel like magnetizing a flyer so it can be both a dakkajet AND a wazbom sounds like a really large endavour. The two planes dont even look alike.
Look at the picture I' ve posted and try it again. You don' t need to have the exact wings and tail. Just some ork plane with the right weapons. So you need to magnetize just the weapons.
There are following slots:
1. Bottom - SMG or just the landing sky
2. Nose sides - supashootas
3. Main weapons wings - TMB, KMK or supashootas
4. Turret - one or two shootas (big or supa) with the grot, or KFF, SBF or nothing (ventilation grid)
5. Could be on tail if you use the wazboom tail.
6. Bomb slots
Wanna wazboom? KFF / SBF slot 4., supa shootas slot 2, big weapons slots 1. and 3.
Dakkajet? 2 Supa shootas slot 2. and 3. and double shoota turret slot 4.
From all of this you can swap the plane to anything you want. Nothing hard, nothing complicated. You just need a drill, glue and bunch of magnets.
Plus my reccomendation:
7. Magnetize the wings. You will be able to transport the plane much easier.
8. Magnetize the tail. I didn' t do and it' s wrong. Magnetize it because of the transport.
It's an Ork vehicle. I'd be disappointed if it looked like the box. Having the ability to change the weapons while still looking orky is a great way to have the options of both wazbomm and dakka jet.
I have Bitz from a knight and a stompa attached to mine to represent the kff.
I'd be interested to hear if people had any luck with dakkajets against quins or tau. The s6 could be useful
It' s a Goff time! Meganobz are back. Not a single buggy this time. Actualy, not even a single mek gun! Pure infantry, cavalery and transports
The Warhound at Game Grid - 4th - Damien Owen - tripple trukkboyz (2x MANz + Warboss) and double Killrig (one with squigtyre) with Beastsnagaboyz, Beastboss on Saur etc. No stormboyz, just few kommandos. Heavy hitting alpha strike.
Tau Tipping 2022 - 6th – Lukas Troller - also Goff preasure, but this time more Beta strike list. No killrigs or trukkboyz for T1 charge. But Battlewagons and squighog boyz. And ghazzy with makari.
Goonhammer have this two armies in the box “goff preasure list” but it' s very obvious on this example, how different these lists are. It' s more like “I dunno how does it work but there is written GOFF so call it this way…” The first one hits T1 like a hammer and hopes that it surprise the opponent so he won' t be able to score later. But Lukas Troller list seems to me more like a tide that slowly but surely controls the field.
I would appreciate deeper comments by someone who actualy play such lists.
Except GEQs and some special combinations, if you do a math, you will find that Dakkajet do about 50-60% of the damage the Wazboom do. For 50-60% of the price. So it is not about what is better. It is about a game plan how many points do you want in the air and how many do you want on the ground.
In the speedmob, one wazboom at least is the minimum because you hardly find the units to spent the points.
In another types of the list it' s different. Because wazboom and dakkajet have the same ammount of W with the same T and similar Sv. So for the half of the points you have almost the same ammount of W to kill. Stronger army…
Automatically Appended Next Post: So the decision makeing proces is aproximately like this:
If you take two wazbooms, you put 500p which is 25% of your army in the air. Your game plan have to be about getting to the opponent fast also with the rest of the army and kill as much asap. Because Wazbooms will be target n1 ASAP and all of the enemy fire will focus on wazbooms. And they propably gonna die. So you need to kill their anti-wazboom units first.
If you take two dakkajets, you have just abou 250p in the air but in the same chasi and the same ammount of wounds. But with the 50% killing potential. This sounds more like a gameplan with the focus on what is going on the ground and the dakkajets are there just for flexibility and power to clean objective holders behind the corner. And soak a lot of enemy firepower before thei die.
Look at their power - typical example are Duhkari Wracks. 5 of them sits back and you want them die. Dakkajet has 36 shots on 5+ = 12 hits. Wound on 3+ = 8 wounds. Wracks with 6++ and 5+++ reduce it to 6,66 and than 4,44 = you propably kill 5 Wracks a turn. That is nice but nothing to write home about.
And jets are always the targets n1. They are huge models and moving 60” around the table and shoot at anything. Everybody wants them dead.
So the 2 dakkajet option is better protection of your army than a KFF. In first and second turn at least. Kill two jets in a turn is a hard task even for the top meta armies and even such armies have to waste a huge ammount of their firepower to kill them.
Just don' t be stupid and do NOT fly directly to your opponent on both his flanks. Most of the warhammer shooting weapons has a limited range (on slow platform). Do not offer a target to all of the opponents shooting. Be clever. Deploy planes in the deepest corners of your deploy each on the other side. If they survive, one flyies directly to the opponents corner and the second like a proper jets turns and fly 60” to the same side of the table like the first one. Just not back in the deploy but next to the half of the table side. Do it like this and you focus the firepower on one side of the table and kill there a lot. On the other side, in opponents turn for most of the army the jets will be out of range. And in your next turn, if both of the jets are still alive, you should be able to move so, that the first jet goes to another quater of the table and the second stays in the same a you start The Great Rotation both jets scoring Engage.
The fact is that if you do it right and silent the opponents firepower anable to kill your jets and still have two wazbooms on the table after that, you propably win the game. Because the ammount of the dakka wazbooms in full load can do is really scary.
But aou cannot hide them and some armies simple kill them turn 1. Againts such armies you need to put the wazbooms in reserves to hide if go second. Because if you go second and lost both of your wazbooms before they shoot, you lost the game.
So back to the core of your question - what jet shall you assamble? Well, I love jets and play tham almost in every list last couple of years. There used to be times, it was a Dakkajet. And wazbooms sucks like a hell. Than they became fine. Than there was a very funny period of exploding Burna Bommers. The only that was not cool for a long time is a Blitza Bommer. So I guess Blitza Bommer will be cool in some of the next expansions.
So magnetize. Really. Trust me. Take a saw and cut your finished jet to magnetize him later is a really paintfull process. You don' t want to do it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And have them two. Jets needs to be in pair. Both or non.
essentially lost 1 attack when above 20 models to be replaced with -1AP on choppas for boyz at least. at this point the "buff" to get -1AP on choppas are largely redundant with so many AP ignoring modifiers. It also stops big shootas from being useful in many match ups with a speedwaaagh.
And yes, squig buggies hitting on 5s and the enemy gets +1 to their save? Can you spell feth off? good bye squig buggies, it was fun while it lasted. but sadly you needed one more nail in the coffin. The mega nerfs werent enough.
I'm so glad that our 9th edition codex didn't have a selling point of an army-wide ability that increases shooting AP for two turns, and also our generic melee weapons gaining an AP.
Also cool that they wanted to boost the survivability of power armor types while forgetting that armies that aren't predominantly power armored still have some units with it too... Actually, I've just thought of something about the wording of Armor of Contempt. It says to worsen the AP characteristic by 1, with no clause defining a minimum value for the modified AP characteristic. The core rules only protect characteristics with '-' (or '1' in the case of S,T,Ld, and A) from being modified to be worse than they are. AP characteristics are written as 0, however. Therefore does Armor of Contempt cause AP 0 weapons to become AP +1? Giving the target +1 to their save roll? This is obviously not their intent but they've gone and worded it badly enough that it's a possible reading, unless there's another part of the book dealing with modifying characteristics I missed.
I think I'm giving up on the competitive game for the time being, at least until they stop nerfing Orks. Even when we're not getting targeted nerfs we're still taking a whack from the nerf bat.
I ´ m not so sceptical. Because what the datslate do the most is ceipling the harleis and custodes and taus.
That is good for us.
Cripling the RSBs is bad but wé ll find the way go around.
Buffing the marines? Who cares. They are weaker than orks and we can beat them. Or I don ´ t know how about you, I don ´ t remember the last time I was defeated by some marines or sisters…. Like a year ago?
Changes to squigbuggy was disappointing but I can always bring more buggies, bikes, koptas, wagons instead of that one even if I were fielding (and I don't) the army of renown. I was already fielding just the one squigbuggy, so I won't change that much thanks to that.
I'm much more annoyed by the buff to power armours which is massive. Also their vehicles get the buff and considering how already crappy were our APs this is someting that will have a significant impact on orks.
RAWAP+1 is very possible unless I miss something. And if it wasn't, Speedwaaagh would become completely useless.
Tomsug wrote: I ´ m not so sceptical. Because what the datslate do the most is ceipling the harleis and custodes and taus.
That is good for us.
Cripling the RSBs is bad but wé ll find the way go around.
Buffing the marines? Who cares. They are weaker than orks and we can beat them. Or I don ´ t know how about you, I don ´ t remember the last time I was defeated by some marines or sisters…. Like a year ago?
with power armor ignoring most of our AP i think that changes now. my honest assesment on reading all the changes orks are now a bottom 1/4 army again. down from pre faq being a mid 3/4 army.
I was expecting them to recognise how bad ork boys are and bring them back by at least a point, preferably 2-3.
I was also convinced in my mind that they would realise that the multitude of -1 to hit in the game reduces our shooting builds output by 50%
Instead we will now bounce off Power Armour again and got an indirect nerf to the Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy which is already overcosted at 120 pts.
Also we are one of the few armies where the +1 armour save on indirect does practically nothing to help us.
Goofy Smiley said above he thinks we are bottom 1/4. I personally think we are now flat out the worst codex outside of those armies that haven't had a codex this edition.
The worrying thing is, they don't even seem to realise how bad our codex is right now.
Just because we post the odd semi decent result in some small 20 player tournament on occasion doesn't mean our codex isn't drowning in a sea of power creep.
What's even good now?
MANZ?
Speed mob?
I'm struggling our competitive builds are limited.
Tomsug wrote: I ´ m not so sceptical. Because what the datslate do the most is ceipling the harleis and custodes and taus.
That is good for us.
Cripling the RSBs is bad but wé ll find the way go around.
Buffing the marines? Who cares. They are weaker than orks and we can beat them. Or I don ´ t know how about you, I don ´ t remember the last time I was defeated by some marines or sisters…. Like a year ago?
Here here!
We'll be fine. We had bad match ups into tau, quins and custodes and they all got nerfed.
Rukkatrukk is gone but I'd switched to more deffkoptas anyway.
Or is it hear hear.
Man, poor squigbuggy just gets ground into the dust, I guess I'm lucky that I never ended up getting the model. Must suck for people who went out and bought a trio of them at their peak. GW legitimately doesn't know what they're doing with all these blanket changes. We might get an early 10th ed clean up with the rate things are changing at such a rapid and volatile pace.
Also, very asinine that we still have the buggy restrictions given the points increases and enemy units that are heads and shoulders above our firepower.
Choppas and their ilk are now AP0 again into the most common matchup (SM). Klaws are AP2 now -- basically, marines have a 5++ vs our hammers.
Orks are going to struggle into Marines. Dark Angels Terminators got a -1 AP buff! Those things will be *so hard* to shift if you aren't going speed mob rocket spam.
Choppas and their ilk are now AP0 again into the most common matchup (SM). Klaws are AP2 now -- basically, marines have a 5++ vs our hammers.
Orks are going to struggle into Marines. Dark Angels Terminators got a -1 AP buff! Those things will be *so hard* to shift if you aren't going speed mob rocket spam.
Yeah, the fact that one of the "selling" points of the new codex, the -1AP for choppas, gets neutured so quickly in the face of these changes is a slap in the face given how much we pay for that and a T5 body. GW basically has to push the cost of boyz to 6 ppm to even have them compete, and even then a complete rewrite of the datasheet is kinda necessary at this point.
imagine going in to bad moon and using shoota boyz and getting that wound on 6s to get -1AP against space marines.
Imagine having a clan trait thats completely nullified on your own units, by a random balance sheet.
Bad moon was meant to be the clan for infantry shooting in general, yet here we are, and our infantry dont really do much when their trait goes off on a wound on a 6, because the AP we just received gets taken away.
Beardedragon wrote: imagine going in to bad moon and using shoota boyz and getting that wound on 6s to get -1AP against space marines.
Imagine having a clan trait thats completely nullified on your own units, by a random balance sheet.
Bad moon was meant to be the clan for infantry shooting in general, yet here we are, and our infantry dont really do much when their trait goes off on a wound on a 6, because the AP we just received gets taken away.
This is actually why i do play badmoonz, that AP1 on 6s tends to do work when you puke out dice. Is it better than Goff? proably not, but i have more fun with it and thats what matters.
2/3 of the people i face are marines of some sort. Guess what im not going to be doing now.
I'm fed up with GW's balance, the last time i shelved my armies was in 7th edition but that was because it was boring. Now its just so convoluted and unstable i get a freaking headache trying to remember everything going on and keep track with their rapid knee-jerk reaction nerfs/buffs.
Beardedragon wrote: imagine going in to bad moon and using shoota boyz and getting that wound on 6s to get -1AP against space marines.
Imagine having a clan trait thats completely nullified on your own units, by a random balance sheet.
Bad moon was meant to be the clan for infantry shooting in general, yet here we are, and our infantry dont really do much when their trait goes off on a wound on a 6, because the AP we just received gets taken away.
This is actually why i do play badmoonz, that AP1 on 6s tends to do work when you puke out dice.
Is it better than Goff? proably not, but i have more fun with it and thats what matters.
2/3 of the people i face are marines of some sort. Guess what im not going to be doing now.
I'm fed up with GW's balance, the last time i shelved my armies was in 7th edition but that was because it was boring. Now its just so convoluted and unstable i get a freaking headache trying to remember everything going on and keep track with their rapid knee-jerk reaction nerfs/buffs.
This might be the least exciting time to be an Ork.
Our codex isn't years away, and the best we can really hope for is... our units get super cheap again? CC Orks are going to lose badly now into Armour of Contempt armies.
AP1 is now pretty mediocre and our codex is lousy with it. Our CC characters often start at AP2. They'll be able to barely scratch the paint off of a terminator.
Double LC terminators are 33 points and are now magnitudes more durable than Mega Nobs -- if being shot at in cover, you'd need AP5 just to get to them to their invul. AP4 in combat.
This is actually why i do play badmoonz, that AP1 on 6s tends to do work when you puke out dice.
Is it better than Goff? proably not, but i have more fun with it and thats what matters.
Goffs rely on different builds though, Bad Moons compete with Freebooterz instead. And they not always are the worst options between the two shooty klans, in small games or even standard ones where it's hard to trigger the +1 hit for example.
Beardedragon wrote: imagine going in to bad moon and using shoota boyz and getting that wound on 6s to get -1AP against space marines.
Imagine having a clan trait thats completely nullified on your own units, by a random balance sheet.
Bad moon was meant to be the clan for infantry shooting in general, yet here we are, and our infantry dont really do much when their trait goes off on a wound on a 6, because the AP we just received gets taken away.
This is actually why i do play badmoonz, that AP1 on 6s tends to do work when you puke out dice.
Is it better than Goff? proably not, but i have more fun with it and thats what matters.
2/3 of the people i face are marines of some sort. Guess what im not going to be doing now.
I'm fed up with GW's balance, the last time i shelved my armies was in 7th edition but that was because it was boring. Now its just so convoluted and unstable i get a freaking headache trying to remember everything going on and keep track with their rapid knee-jerk reaction nerfs/buffs.
This might be the least exciting time to be an Ork.
Our codex isn't years away, and the best we can really hope for is... our units get super cheap again? CC Orks are going to lose badly now into Armour of Contempt armies.
AP1 is now pretty mediocre and our codex is lousy with it. Our CC characters often start at AP2. They'll be able to barely scratch the paint off of a terminator.
Double LC terminators are 33 points and are now magnitudes more durable than Mega Nobs -- if being shot at in cover, you'd need AP5 just to get to them to their invul. AP4 in combat.
We're also any army stuffed full of D2 with -1 D being handed out all over the place.
I'm going to give Goffs a try this weekend anyways.
Ok, I give it a try with the new rules agaiants very experienced player with the sisters.
I' ve lost something like 72:85 and it was my best result againts this dude by far I every did, so definitely success! I have to admit he opened the game “custodes sucks now so I want check the sisters” however Two of mine positioning fails on the end killed by deffkoptas = -10 VP on TTL for me and +10VP on bring it down for him plus I lost one objective = another 4VP different.
Notes:
- no squigbuggies? Well, my new list without them is actually more killy than my previous one. This is a change, yes. But not a nerf. Definitely not, because the same rule protect my Koptas againts Hyve Guard and Tau shooting. So I like it.
- better save on imperial dudes - well, that is definitely visible. Soft sisters in cover with this weapon have a crazy saves. This shakes the rating of our units. Dakkajet is now much worse than before. Boomboyz deffkoptas are the winners. Snazzwagon is suddenly pretty good with the fix number of 14 shots 5/-2/2 and cheap price tag. Just the bloody -1dmg around…
- The feeling from the game was definitely not feeling of crapy army. And the guy I was playing againts scores high in TTS Alpha league and usually used to be able to table me T3. So test passed. We ' re fine. Stop moaning.
- I' m looking for the next game with my Imperial Guard buddy, finaly it will be something I hope…
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: “Hey orks, here’s ap on your choppas to deal with power armor”
Heh, definitely worth the price increase.
I think there is a solid argument for boyz being around 6-7 points each in this meta.
9 is frankly ridiculous
Bud, with the level of absolute flying rodent gak insane power creep, you could argue 5ppm boyz wouldn't be broken anymore.
Agree. Ork infantry based on boyz is very weak now. But don ' t be sad. Remember, there is a new Boyz kit! So expect some Boyz AOR or something like this no later in a year to pimp up the selling of this kit.
we talked about how massed boyz and infantry is going to suck going forward?
Well guess what i painted up and is taking to the next GT in june? Kommandos, stormboyz, trukkboyz and deffkoptas as goffs.
Im just glad its a team tournament, so ill have to fight off other xenos i guess otherwise its like hitting with wet noodles against their power armors. Maybe i should change out my 9 deffkoptas for something buggywise given im using ghaz anyway for the great waaagh. Or maybe some grot mega tanks with scorchas or rokkits..
Well, the fact is that the change on Boyz and their derivations is minor. They were crap before the dataslate and now they are just bigger crap. And crap is a crap.
What is important to say is, that almost no armies that gain The Armour of Compensation is the army regularly placed well in meta. Look at the win rates few weaks old - who got this? Deathwatch and Grey Knights? And the next nearest faction is like 7 places behind the orks?
So dont be a pussies. Some crap armies get a buff they need more than we. Deal with it.
What important is that the faction that hurts us significantly - Custodes, Harleis, Tau - get a significant nerf. This buffs our position. So I really struggle to see Orks as a big loosers of this Dataslate.
Buggiest problem in this dataslate was the murder of the squigbuggy without reversing any of the other nerfs it already got. I mean you can remove the buggy limit now and heck reduce the point nerf to 15 pts or even 10pts and the squigbuggy still wouldn’t be the best option. To be fair that buggy limit was never needed especially when they had the option to just push the chapter approved points hike early like they did w admech and drukari.
Well, a lot of competitive list used just a single RSB already. I think it is not a nerf so much. We cannot use the RSB well but the opponents cannot use the indirect too. We can simply use some another buggy and nothing change.
In fact, this Dataslate is not a nerf of the Boyz. It is a buff. Because now if someone plays them, he plays them as backfield objective / RND scoring unit. So they do not fight. So they do not care about some AP. On the other hand, they are happy that opponents indirect is nerfed because that keeps them alive.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And one last note - everybody are crazy about terminators and their crazy safes. But who cares about them. Just park a squad of warbikers 1,1” in front of them and than do it again another turn and again. Such way you block 600p of melee monsters by 75p unit.
The game is win by the VPs. Not by killing terminators. It' s the same like killing Custodes. They are slow. And with the poor shooting. Just block them and score around. Say hallo to Bitz, Engage and TTL.
I mean I don’t see orks going up in ranking due to the other armies changes. We didn’t go up when greyknights was knocked out and we won’t with custodes being gone.. tau is still decent, as is eldar, Tyranids, even drukari is still just as good.
gungo wrote: I mean I don’t see orks going up in ranking due to the other armies changes. We didn’t go up when greyknights was knocked out and we won’t with custodes being gone.. tau is still decent, as is eldar, Tyranids, even drukari is still just as good.
Mehh drukhari are soft. Die in T4. The biggest problem is to stop them from scoring.
The greatest respect I have is from Stampede. That is super tough match up for me.
And I wanna see post-Dataslate Custodes. If they go down to 1-2 squads of bikes, it became something to be possible to fight with. 1 squad please…
Tomsug wrote: Well, the fact is that the change on Boyz and their derivations is minor. They were crap before the dataslate and now they are just bigger crap. And crap is a crap.
What is important to say is, that almost no armies that gain The Armour of Compensation is the army regularly placed well in meta. Look at the win rates few weaks old - who got this? Deathwatch and Grey Knights? And the next nearest faction is like 7 places behind the orks?
So dont be a pussies. Some crap armies get a buff they need more than we. Deal with it.
What important is that the faction that hurts us significantly - Custodes, Harleis, Tau - get a significant nerf. This buffs our position. So I really struggle to see Orks as a big loosers of this Dataslate.
honestly one of the biggest issues issues for orks in tournaments now is they are going to have a terrible matchup to space marines. I don't think this update kills orks for casual play but I think they will be, barring some lucky matchups, kept off top tables without being able to beat the marines ignoring an ap.
gungo wrote: I mean I don’t see orks going up in ranking due to the other armies changes. We didn’t go up when greyknights was knocked out and we won’t with custodes being gone.. tau is still decent, as is eldar, Tyranids, even drukari is still just as good.
Mehh drukhari are soft. Die in T4. The biggest problem is to stop them from scoring.
The greatest respect I have is from Stampede. That is super tough match up for me.
And I wanna see post-Dataslate Custodes. If they go down to 1-2 squads of bikes, it became something to be possible to fight with. 1 squad please…
I mean drukari was still tearing up the placings during LVO in January and nothing really changed for them except new codexs came out that were stronger and everyone else got nerfed with generic rules changes… out of sight shooting and bodyguard shenanigans didn’t really effect them..
custodes got hammered w single use abilities, unable to use certain abilities on non troops, cutting of obj secured, bikes are significantly less durable now.. still surprised trajinn is so cheap but I don’t think custodes can survive major design changes that allowed them to score easier and survive longer.
Leviathan stampede w new codex is brokenly bad but I hope when thier codex drops there will be day 1 or 2 errata to fix it…
Again none of the above make orks better… we don’t exist in a zero sum game…. We don’t necessarily win when someone else loses.
I’m annoyed at the knee jerk nerfs on orks and then lack of thought on our issues.. poor Strats, unfixed datasheets, and just butchered units like squiggbuggy or nob bikers or regular boys..
honestly one of the biggest issues issues for orks in tournaments now is they are going to have a terrible matchup to space marines. I don't think this update kills orks for casual play but I think they will be, barring some lucky matchups, kept off top tables without being able to beat the marines ignoring an ap.
Depend on the ork army propably. I never had a problem to beat any kind of marines or drukhrarry with my speedmob. Just the Dead Guard in experienced hands was a pain. But anything else with “marine” characteristic was a easy cake for me.
Tomsug wrote: Well, the fact is that the change on Boyz and their derivations is minor. They were crap before the dataslate and now they are just bigger crap. And crap is a crap.
What is important to say is, that almost no armies that gain The Armour of Compensation is the army regularly placed well in meta. Look at the win rates few weaks old - who got this? Deathwatch and Grey Knights? And the next nearest faction is like 7 places behind the orks?
So dont be a pussies. Some crap armies get a buff they need more than we. Deal with it.
What important is that the faction that hurts us significantly - Custodes, Harleis, Tau - get a significant nerf. This buffs our position. So I really struggle to see Orks as a big loosers of this Dataslate.
Yes Tom, but that isn't because those armies were bad, it was because Custodes, Harlies, Tau, Eldar and Crusher were just broken in every possible way so that those armies by default had no chance. I'll put it to you this way, I had MORE Eldar/Harly armies at the last GT I went to than Marines....that has never happened before to me.
As far as how this will impact us, goofy is kind of spot on here. Against Marines we kind of suck now. A unit of 3 deffkoptas just went from killing 2.2 Marines a Turn (not great, not bad) to killing 1.6 (Not good at all), in CC on a WAAAGH turn they just went from killing 3 Marines outright to killing 2. To put it another way, this "update" takes away about 1/3rd of our dmg output with AP weapons. And I dont' know about you guys, but my armies can't really afford those losses.
Tomsug wrote: Well, the fact is that the change on Boyz and their derivations is minor. They were crap before the dataslate and now they are just bigger crap. And crap is a crap.
What is important to say is, that almost no armies that gain The Armour of Compensation is the army regularly placed well in meta. Look at the win rates few weaks old - who got this? Deathwatch and Grey Knights? And the next nearest faction is like 7 places behind the orks?
So dont be a pussies. Some crap armies get a buff they need more than we. Deal with it.
What important is that the faction that hurts us significantly - Custodes, Harleis, Tau - get a significant nerf. This buffs our position. So I really struggle to see Orks as a big loosers of this Dataslate.
Yes Tom, but that isn't because those armies were bad, it was because Custodes, Harlies, Tau, Eldar and Crusher were just broken in every possible way so that those armies by default had no chance. I'll put it to you this way, I had MORE Eldar/Harly armies at the last GT I went to than Marines....that has never happened before to me.
As far as how this will impact us, goofy is kind of spot on here. Against Marines we kind of suck now. A unit of 3 deffkoptas just went from killing 2.2 Marines a Turn (not great, not bad) to killing 1.6 (Not good at all), in CC on a WAAAGH turn they just went from killing 3 Marines outright to killing 2. To put it another way, this "update" takes away about 1/3rd of our dmg output with AP weapons. And I dont' know about you guys, but my armies can't really afford those losses.
Until something else changes, Orks are probably a low 40s, if not sub 40s army competitively.
Most matchups are either us being unfavoured to just a probable loss. Losing 1 AP army wide for us is *devastating*.
Expect to see a wall of 2+ saves. Terminators are absolute premium, and even power armour now is incredibly tanky against our low AP army.
Yeah, I feel bad in particular for people running klanz like Bad Moonz for fun, because those 6's for extra AP is effectively pointless for so many guns that most Bad Moon players would take, like shootas/big shootas/deffgunz, amongst other thingz, so this still impacts even the non-competitive side of things and skews things even worse.
Legit they would have to include an AP bonus to melee attacks for Regular WAAAGH! now to make it so we keep up with parity which is silly, and we either need more reliable firepower or accuracy to compensate for the lack of AP for Speedwaaagh. In both cases, it's looking pretty rough for the rest of 9th ed for us.
Not looking to be super competitive, but coming back after 6th edition the army construction rules are a bit confusing to me...stratagems and command points especially.
I really want to field an army that features Bikers heavily, with a Warboss Warlord on Warbike. With the bulk of the troops being Trukk Boyz. Not really interested in any of the squig models/units even though they may be powerful.
Not a massive fan of all the new buggy models but could be convinced to run them.
What is the best Clan Kultur for this? I've seen some videos saying Bad Moonz, but I also see Speed Freaks are a subset of just about any Kultur.
I've also noticed when I try to make a list in Battlescribe anytime I add an HQ in addition to my Ork Warboss on warbike it says I can only have 1 speedboss....seems a bit weird. Is a Big Mek with a KFF still worthwhile?
Any advice on stratagems, kultur, useful relics, etc would be nice. I've also seen there is an "Army of Renown" for Speed Freaks but I don't really understand how that works either. I tried to build one and Battlescribe started throwing up errors all over the place.
If I put a Big Mek in a Battlewagon with a KFF does the aura still expand 6" out from the Battlewagon model?
If you don't choose a Kultur and an instead choose the Mob Specialist can you really not have more than one unit of Trukk Boyz Specialists?
Griever wrote: Not looking to be super competitive, but coming back after 6th edition the army construction rules are a bit confusing to me...stratagems and command points especially.
I really want to field an army that features Bikers heavily, with a Warboss Warlord on Warbike. With the bulk of the troops being Trukk Boyz. Not really interested in any of the squig models/units even though they may be powerful.
Not a massive fan of all the new buggy models but could be convinced to run them.
What is the best Clan Kultur for this? I've seen some videos saying Bad Moonz, but I also see Speed Freaks are a subset of just about any Kultur.
I've also noticed when I try to make a list in Battlescribe anytime I add an HQ in addition to my Ork Warboss on warbike it says I can only have 1 speedboss....seems a bit weird. Is a Big Mek with a KFF still worthwhile?
Any advice on stratagems, kultur, useful relics, etc would be nice. I've also seen there is an "Army of Renown" for Speed Freaks but I don't really understand how that works either. I tried to build one and Battlescribe started throwing up errors all over the place.
If you don't choose a Kultur and an instead choose the Mob Specialist can you really not have more than one unit of Trukk Boyz Specialists?
Welcome to the WAAAGH! I'm not surprised at all that you're confused with regards to the changes that have been made since 6th ed. If you want a succint and clear rules summary for the core rules, do check out wahapedia, the layout and organization makes it a lot easier to digest the information.
In terms of your questions, if you're aiming for a bike heavy army, I really do suggest going for the Speed Mob Army of Renown option. Army of Renown effectively gives you a specific army archetype that gives you additional rules but comes with restrictions for the detachments you take in the army. So in the case of Speed Mob, you get the Adrenaline Junkies rule that gives you a 6+ invuln baseline for all Speed Freeks units, which turns into a 5+ invuln if you've advanced with them that turn. You also get the ability to advance and not count as having done so until the end of your shooting phase. You also get +1A on the charge. You'll also have access to specific Speed Mob only stratagems and WL traits/kustom jobs. The trade off is that you are only allowed to take units that have the Speed Freek, WAGON and Aircraft keywords in your army, so no footsloggers in your army. Furthermore, you lose the klan kultur abilities for the speed freek units in your army in return BUT you keep the klan keyword, which is very important since that means you can still use klan specific stratagems on them.
The best options for klanz when you run this are typically Evil Sunz, Freebootas or Blood Axes since they all have different strats and relics you can use even if you don't get the benefit of their klan kultur (planes aside). Since you already get a baseline invuln for Speed Mob, a Big Mek with KFF is completely redundant and also can't be taken in a Speed Mob army due to its restrictions. You're basically forced to only take Warboss on Warbike or a Deffkilla Wartrike as HQ's. (I highly suggest the Warboss on Warbike to be given the Killa Klaw relic and the WL trait Brutal but Kunnin to give your army some much needed CC punch).
Also, the way specialist mobs work is that you basically trade in a kultur for a single unit in each detachment to be one of the specialist mobz they detail in the list. Unfortunately, that means you are limited to a max of one trukk boyz unit per detachment you have.
If you're hesitant towards buggies, currently the best one to go for are megatrakk scrapjets, because of their versatility of having both good CC and shooting ability. Their main drawback is being the slowest (only 10" base movement), so you will want to be careful with positioning or consider even deepstriking them via the Tellyport stratagem.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Griever wrote: If I put a Big Mek in a Battlewagon with a KFF does the aura still expand 6" out from the Battlewagon model?
Nope. Sadly that is gone. If you want KFF protection it must be with a model on the table with the KFF aura.
Griever wrote: Not looking to be super competitive, but coming back after 6th edition the army construction rules are a bit confusing to me...stratagems and command points especially.
I really want to field an army that features Bikers heavily, with a Warboss Warlord on Warbike. With the bulk of the troops being Trukk Boyz. Not really interested in any of the squig models/units even though they may be powerful.
Not a massive fan of all the new buggy models but could be convinced to run them.
What is the best Clan Kultur for this? I've seen some videos saying Bad Moonz, but I also see Speed Freaks are a subset of just about any Kultur.
I've also noticed when I try to make a list in Battlescribe anytime I add an HQ in addition to my Ork Warboss on warbike it says I can only have 1 speedboss....seems a bit weird. Is a Big Mek with a KFF still worthwhile?
Any advice on stratagems, kultur, useful relics, etc would be nice. I've also seen there is an "Army of Renown" for Speed Freaks but I don't really understand how that works either. I tried to build one and Battlescribe started throwing up errors all over the place.
If you don't choose a Kultur and an instead choose the Mob Specialist can you really not have more than one unit of Trukk Boyz Specialists?
Welcome to the WAAAGH! I'm not surprised at all that you're confused with regards to the changes that have been made since 6th ed. If you want a succint and clear rules summary for the core rules, do check out wahapedia, the layout and organization makes it a lot easier to digest the information.
In terms of your questions, if you're aiming for a bike heavy army, I really do suggest going for the Speed Mob Army of Renown option. Army of Renown effectively gives you a specific army archetype that gives you additional rules but comes with restrictions for the detachments you take in the army. So in the case of Speed Mob, you get the Adrenaline Junkies rule that gives you a 6+ invuln baseline for all Speed Freeks units, which turns into a 5+ invuln if you've advanced with them that turn. You also get the ability to advance and not count as having done so until the end of your shooting phase. You also get +1A on the charge. You'll also have access to specific Speed Mob only stratagems and WL traits/kustom jobs. The trade off is that you are only allowed to take units that have the Speed Freek, WAGON and Aircraft keywords in your army, so no footsloggers in your army. Furthermore, you lose the klan kultur abilities for the speed freek units in your army in return BUT you keep the klan keyword, which is very important since that means you can still use klan specific stratagems on them.
The best options for klanz when you run this are typically Evil Sunz, Freebootas or Blood Axes since they all have different strats and relics you can use even if you don't get the benefit of their klan kultur (planes aside). Since you already get a baseline invuln for Speed Mob, a Big Mek with KFF is completely redundant and also can't be taken in a Speed Mob army due to its restrictions. You're basically forced to only take Warboss on Warbike or a Deffkilla Wartrike as HQ's. (I highly suggest the Warboss on Warbike to be given the Killa Klaw relic and the WL trait Brutal but Kunnin to give your army some much needed CC punch).
Also, the way specialist mobs work is that you basically trade in a kultur for a single unit in each detachment to be one of the specialist mobz they detail in the list. Unfortunately, that means you are limited to a max of one trukk boyz unit per detachment you have.
If you're hesitant towards buggies, currently the best one to go for are megatrakk scrapjets, because of their versatility of having both good CC and shooting ability. Their main drawback is being the slowest (only 10" base movement), so you will want to be careful with positioning or consider even deepstriking them via the Tellyport stratagem.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Griever wrote: If I put a Big Mek in a Battlewagon with a KFF does the aura still expand 6" out from the Battlewagon model?
Nope. Sadly that is gone. If you want KFF protection it must be with a model on the table with the KFF aura.
Thanks for the reply. This may be a battlescribe question...but when I select the Speed Mob Army of Renown it throws up errors that I need 2 HQ's....but you can't select any more than 1 HQ because that breaks the "you can only have 1 speedboss" rule but all the HQ's count as speedbosses.
It also throws up the "you need at least 3 troops error" but when I select Speed Mob Army of Renown you cannot select any troops at all accoring to the army builder.
Is this just the case of Battlescribe not correctly implementing the Speed Mob rules correctly? Or do I have to run multiple detachments just to complete an army? Which if I do I think I might just give up because my head is going to explode. If I do have to, do I just have to run a barebones detachment of a regular battalion to fulfil those HQ/Troops requirements in the same army?
Until I figure that out, I created an army I would like using the regular detachment rules for 2,000 points, any advice/tips would be appreciated: https://pastebin.com/eSN3DS1E
The Meganobz go in one Battlewagon with the Big Mek, The 19 strong boyz squad goes in the other with the Painboy. The two 12 man boyz squads go in the Trukks..and I figured I'd need an obsec/troop unit to sit on objectives in/around my deployment zone so that's what the Shoota Boyz squad is for.
Griever wrote: Not looking to be super competitive, but coming back after 6th edition the army construction rules are a bit confusing to me...stratagems and command points especially.
I really want to field an army that features Bikers heavily, with a Warboss Warlord on Warbike. With the bulk of the troops being Trukk Boyz. Not really interested in any of the squig models/units even though they may be powerful.
Not a massive fan of all the new buggy models but could be convinced to run them.
What is the best Clan Kultur for this? I've seen some videos saying Bad Moonz, but I also see Speed Freaks are a subset of just about any Kultur.
I've also noticed when I try to make a list in Battlescribe anytime I add an HQ in addition to my Ork Warboss on warbike it says I can only have 1 speedboss....seems a bit weird. Is a Big Mek with a KFF still worthwhile?
Any advice on stratagems, kultur, useful relics, etc would be nice. I've also seen there is an "Army of Renown" for Speed Freaks but I don't really understand how that works either. I tried to build one and Battlescribe started throwing up errors all over the place.
If you don't choose a Kultur and an instead choose the Mob Specialist can you really not have more than one unit of Trukk Boyz Specialists?
Welcome to the WAAAGH! I'm not surprised at all that you're confused with regards to the changes that have been made since 6th ed. If you want a succint and clear rules summary for the core rules, do check out wahapedia, the layout and organization makes it a lot easier to digest the information.
In terms of your questions, if you're aiming for a bike heavy army, I really do suggest going for the Speed Mob Army of Renown option. Army of Renown effectively gives you a specific army archetype that gives you additional rules but comes with restrictions for the detachments you take in the army. So in the case of Speed Mob, you get the Adrenaline Junkies rule that gives you a 6+ invuln baseline for all Speed Freeks units, which turns into a 5+ invuln if you've advanced with them that turn. You also get the ability to advance and not count as having done so until the end of your shooting phase. You also get +1A on the charge. You'll also have access to specific Speed Mob only stratagems and WL traits/kustom jobs. The trade off is that you are only allowed to take units that have the Speed Freek, WAGON and Aircraft keywords in your army, so no footsloggers in your army. Furthermore, you lose the klan kultur abilities for the speed freek units in your army in return BUT you keep the klan keyword, which is very important since that means you can still use klan specific stratagems on them.
The best options for klanz when you run this are typically Evil Sunz, Freebootas or Blood Axes since they all have different strats and relics you can use even if you don't get the benefit of their klan kultur (planes aside). Since you already get a baseline invuln for Speed Mob, a Big Mek with KFF is completely redundant and also can't be taken in a Speed Mob army due to its restrictions. You're basically forced to only take Warboss on Warbike or a Deffkilla Wartrike as HQ's. (I highly suggest the Warboss on Warbike to be given the Killa Klaw relic and the WL trait Brutal but Kunnin to give your army some much needed CC punch).
Also, the way specialist mobs work is that you basically trade in a kultur for a single unit in each detachment to be one of the specialist mobz they detail in the list. Unfortunately, that means you are limited to a max of one trukk boyz unit per detachment you have.
If you're hesitant towards buggies, currently the best one to go for are megatrakk scrapjets, because of their versatility of having both good CC and shooting ability. Their main drawback is being the slowest (only 10" base movement), so you will want to be careful with positioning or consider even deepstriking them via the Tellyport stratagem.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Griever wrote: If I put a Big Mek in a Battlewagon with a KFF does the aura still expand 6" out from the Battlewagon model?
Nope. Sadly that is gone. If you want KFF protection it must be with a model on the table with the KFF aura.
Thanks for the reply. This may be a battlescribe question...but when I select the Speed Mob Army of Renown it throws up errors that I need 2 HQ's....but you can't select any more than 1 HQ because that breaks the "you can only have 1 speedboss" rule but all the HQ's count as speedbosses.
It also throws up the "you need at least 3 troops error" but when I select Speed Mob Army of Renown you cannot select any troops at all accoring to the army builder.
Is this just the case of Battlescribe not correctly implementing the Speed Mob rules correctly? Or do I have to run multiple detachments just to complete an army? Which if I do I think I might just give up because my head is going to explode. If I do have to, do I just have to run a barebones detachment of a regular battalion to fulfil those HQ/Troops requirements in the same army?
Until I figure that out, I created an army I would like using the regular detachment rules for 2,000 points, any advice/tips would be appreciated: https://pastebin.com/eSN3DS1E
The Meganobz go in one Battlewagon with the Big Mek, The 19 strong boyz squad goes in the other with the Painboy. The other two go in the trukks.
Battlescribe is a bit of mess, especially with how often rules change now in 9th ed. As is right now you are not forced to take 2 HQ's unless you go for a battalion detachment, which is impossible if you are going for Speed Mob. If you are aiming for a Speed Mob Army of Renown, you're basically relegated to only taking Outrider detachments since you are unable to take any troops under the AoR restrictions. Keep in mind the first Outrider detachment you take will refund you the 3CP you spend for it under the Speed Mob detachment benefits. So if you wanted two Warbosses on Warbikes or a Deffkilla Wartrike to go with your Warboss on warbike, you would need to have 2 separate outrider detachments. keep in mind that the only mandatory requirements for each outrider detachment is 1 HQ and 3 fast attack slots. So you could fulfill those 3 fast attack slots with 3 units of warbikers.
Griever wrote: Not looking to be super competitive, but coming back after 6th edition the army construction rules are a bit confusing to me...stratagems and command points especially.
I really want to field an army that features Bikers heavily, with a Warboss Warlord on Warbike. With the bulk of the troops being Trukk Boyz. Not really interested in any of the squig models/units even though they may be powerful.
Not a massive fan of all the new buggy models but could be convinced to run them.
What is the best Clan Kultur for this? I've seen some videos saying Bad Moonz, but I also see Speed Freaks are a subset of just about any Kultur.
I've also noticed when I try to make a list in Battlescribe anytime I add an HQ in addition to my Ork Warboss on warbike it says I can only have 1 speedboss....seems a bit weird. Is a Big Mek with a KFF still worthwhile?
Any advice on stratagems, kultur, useful relics, etc would be nice. I've also seen there is an "Army of Renown" for Speed Freaks but I don't really understand how that works either. I tried to build one and Battlescribe started throwing up errors all over the place.
If you don't choose a Kultur and an instead choose the Mob Specialist can you really not have more than one unit of Trukk Boyz Specialists?
Welcome to the WAAAGH! I'm not surprised at all that you're confused with regards to the changes that have been made since 6th ed. If you want a succint and clear rules summary for the core rules, do check out wahapedia, the layout and organization makes it a lot easier to digest the information.
In terms of your questions, if you're aiming for a bike heavy army, I really do suggest going for the Speed Mob Army of Renown option. Army of Renown effectively gives you a specific army archetype that gives you additional rules but comes with restrictions for the detachments you take in the army. So in the case of Speed Mob, you get the Adrenaline Junkies rule that gives you a 6+ invuln baseline for all Speed Freeks units, which turns into a 5+ invuln if you've advanced with them that turn. You also get the ability to advance and not count as having done so until the end of your shooting phase. You also get +1A on the charge. You'll also have access to specific Speed Mob only stratagems and WL traits/kustom jobs. The trade off is that you are only allowed to take units that have the Speed Freek, WAGON and Aircraft keywords in your army, so no footsloggers in your army. Furthermore, you lose the klan kultur abilities for the speed freek units in your army in return BUT you keep the klan keyword, which is very important since that means you can still use klan specific stratagems on them.
The best options for klanz when you run this are typically Evil Sunz, Freebootas or Blood Axes since they all have different strats and relics you can use even if you don't get the benefit of their klan kultur (planes aside). Since you already get a baseline invuln for Speed Mob, a Big Mek with KFF is completely redundant and also can't be taken in a Speed Mob army due to its restrictions. You're basically forced to only take Warboss on Warbike or a Deffkilla Wartrike as HQ's. (I highly suggest the Warboss on Warbike to be given the Killa Klaw relic and the WL trait Brutal but Kunnin to give your army some much needed CC punch).
Also, the way specialist mobs work is that you basically trade in a kultur for a single unit in each detachment to be one of the specialist mobz they detail in the list. Unfortunately, that means you are limited to a max of one trukk boyz unit per detachment you have.
If you're hesitant towards buggies, currently the best one to go for are megatrakk scrapjets, because of their versatility of having both good CC and shooting ability. Their main drawback is being the slowest (only 10" base movement), so you will want to be careful with positioning or consider even deepstriking them via the Tellyport stratagem.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Griever wrote: If I put a Big Mek in a Battlewagon with a KFF does the aura still expand 6" out from the Battlewagon model?
Nope. Sadly that is gone. If you want KFF protection it must be with a model on the table with the KFF aura.
Thanks for the reply. This may be a battlescribe question...but when I select the Speed Mob Army of Renown it throws up errors that I need 2 HQ's....but you can't select any more than 1 HQ because that breaks the "you can only have 1 speedboss" rule but all the HQ's count as speedbosses.
It also throws up the "you need at least 3 troops error" but when I select Speed Mob Army of Renown you cannot select any troops at all accoring to the army builder.
Is this just the case of Battlescribe not correctly implementing the Speed Mob rules correctly? Or do I have to run multiple detachments just to complete an army? Which if I do I think I might just give up because my head is going to explode. If I do have to, do I just have to run a barebones detachment of a regular battalion to fulfil those HQ/Troops requirements in the same army?
Until I figure that out, I created an army I would like using the regular detachment rules for 2,000 points, any advice/tips would be appreciated: https://pastebin.com/eSN3DS1E
The Meganobz go in one Battlewagon with the Big Mek, The 19 strong boyz squad goes in the other with the Painboy. The other two go in the trukks.
Battlescribe is a bit of mess, especially with how often rules change now in 9th ed. As is right now you are not forced to take 2 HQ's unless you go for a battalion detachment, which is impossible if you are going for Speed Mob. If you are aiming for a Speed Mob Army of Renown, you're basically relegated to only taking Outrider detachments since you are unable to take any troops under the AoR restrictions. Keep in mind the first Outrider detachment you take will refund you the 3CP you spend for it under the Speed Mob detachment benefits. So if you wanted two Warbosses on Warbikes or a Deffkilla Wartrike to go with your Warboss on warbike, you would need to have 2 separate outrider detachments. keep in mind that the only mandatory requirements for each outrider detachment is 1 HQ and 3 fast attack slots. So you could fulfill those 3 fast attack slots with 3 units of warbikers.
That makes a lot of sense, thank you so much for your help. I'll tinker with the Outrider detachment and see if I like the Speed Mob version better.
Yes Tom, but that isn't because those armies were bad, it was because Custodes, Harlies, Tau, Eldar and Crusher were just broken in every possible way so that those armies by default had no chance. I'll put it to you this way, I had MORE Eldar/Harly armies at the last GT I went to than Marines....that has never happened before to me.
As far as how this will impact us, goofy is kind of spot on here. Against Marines we kind of suck now. A unit of 3 deffkoptas just went from killing 2.2 Marines a Turn (not great, not bad) to killing 1.6 (Not good at all), in CC on a WAAAGH turn they just went from killing 3 Marines outright to killing 2. To put it another way, this "update" takes away about 1/3rd of our dmg output with AP weapons. And I dont' know about you guys, but my armies can't really afford those losses.
You are right - As I said, Armour of Compensation is really visible. As you write. In my proof game vs. Sisters I - and the opponent too honestly - was surprised how much different - tougher - the sisters are. From t-shirt saves with his “always in cover” and AoC it was cca 3+ all the time even with buggy higher ap weapons.
And I look at the problem just from Speedwaaagh buggy list perspective. The rest of the orks suffer even more because their standard ap around -1.
However what I would like to accent is to keep in mind, what makes armies good in 9th. It is not toughnes on the paper. It is the ability of the army to score.
That is what makes drukhari dangerous even after all this nerfes. So much cheap obsec or mobile or both units. They will die, but score like a hell.
And I 'm really courious if typical marines army can score better than well built and well operated ork list. Yes, the terminators will be nightmare to kill. But I struggle to kill them now. So I just outmaneuvre them. Do not kill them at all. Let them stink where they are and feed them with squad of stormboyz every turn. That could happened.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Last chance to buy:
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sounds like Customs Stompa march to Legends.
No idea what to think about loosing Snikrot and Zagstruk!
Wow, I'm surprised they doing LCTB for the three specialist characters. I guess part of the reason is because they've never really been big sellers to begin with in terms of being a "meta-unit". That and they're finecast. Glad that I already picked up all three earlier in the past, as far as sculpts go, I always thought they were great.
If they do redo them in plastic in the future, I hope they do them justice, though knowing our luck, they'll be locked behind a dual faction battle box like Castellan Crowe was for 3 months first.
They might as well put the entire ork collection on last chance to buy, the army sucks so hard right now.
Yesterday evening I lost 4 models against an ork tournament player (though a bit below me in terms of skill, just a bit though). 4 models… And I wasn’t even playing a super comp army list, 25% of my list was « for fun » stuff.
He was playing the regular speedwaagh army. It was painful to watch honestly.
Time to drop orks for now when considering tournaments, seriously.
Tomsug perhaps you are the siegler of greenskins, I don’t know, but for people like me who need at least a decent army to get a high placing in a serious tournament (which isn’t easy to do), Orks are relegated to fun games, armour Of contempt (contempt for orks) was the final straw.
To many playtesters and competitive players don’t have major ork armies in thier usual army rotations and this is why get attrocious Balance changes based on the fact these players view orks as an npc army and flip out when an ork unit is even slightly competitive. I say this as the vast majority of popular codex reviewers and known playtesters go on and on about how powerful and strong certain ork units are (like deffkoptas) and then most state they don’t play orks or don’t have many models available to play these theoretical broken lists. It’s annoying how heavy handed ork changes tend to be with very little done to fix the parts that are bad. Meanwhile harlequins dark saedeth are still just as broken, tau is still S tier and eldar craftworld weren’t touched at all… the bias is real.
Back on topic I never bought badrukk model kinda want him but dont like the model.
So in the brave new Armour of contempt world what tools do we have at our disposal for combating that?
My wheelhouse is Goff pressure so I think anything with at least -2 AP D2 is what we want, which means.
Ghaz
Boss Zagstruk
Warboss on Bike with Killa Klaw
Deff Dread
Squighog Riders
Meganobz
Bonebreaka Deff Rolla
So I'm going to try a list with all of the above into marines and see how it goes.
I think we have to move away from the Ap-1 stuff and I don't think we can take Boyz at 9 ppm. They are absolutely terrible. We can only hope GW has a clue and they get cut down to 6-7 in the next points patch.
It does leave us a problem with Obsec, if opponents put durable Obsec say terminators on objectives I'm not sure how we shift them and play primary.
Flash gitz
Meganobs
Killakans
Deffkoptas (boomboys if speedmob)
Squighog riders
Scrapjets (during a speedwaaagh)
Out of the 3 finecrap characters badrukk is awful,, zagstrukk is a great character but the model is badly dated; even the ork aesthetic is off now… snikrot though is still decent model… I doubt any of these characters are going to be remade soon but snikrot could be made awesome if they tried.
Tomsug perhaps you are the siegler of greenskins, I don’t know, but for people like me who need at least a decent army to get a high placing in a serious tournament (which isn’t easy to do), Orks are relegated to fun games, armour Of contempt (contempt for orks) was the final straw.
My confidence for orks is not based on my siegler-level skills but the oposite. I know I' m pretty bad. Which is approved regularly on TTS and on local tournaments in Prague. Wait for May. There will be the GT, I' m in and it will be a wild commedy I guess.
And because I know I 'm pretty bad and I see my results and do a debrief on my games after each I see what could happen iF I would had been Richard Siegler
Anyway, my point of view is definitely screwed by the fact that I play SpeedMob and I have a tons of models for this army. Which is a pure coincidence based on sequence on thinks:
“Screw it, I just painted 90 boyz and 120 grots! I never want to do it again! Let' s start something totaly different! What about new buggies? /we are in 2020 or something like this - the buggies just arrived / Well, the new buggies suck and are brand new models. So if I start to paint them, it will be fun to convert and sometime in the future they will be cool on the table, because GW will want to support their sales”
That put me in the place I have a garage full of the right buggies and koptas right now…
Same sequence push me right now to hoarding the walkers…
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is important to say is that I' m really good in makeing the confident statements supported by logical arguments full of gramatical errors, that appears to be wrong soon see my statements about new Eldars just a while ago…. “It seems they will not broke the meta”… very clever…
We' ll see what comes in few weeks. In my experience, I' m not the only one, who is usually totaly wrong
What makes me sad however are following thinks:
- moaning, that orks are weak. Well, obviously they are not (or were not before the dataslate). Just the meta and meta chasers are super agresive and keep himslef in the game againts boosted armies is really hard. Which is the fact. The truth is, we never lost. If we fight, we win - moaning the boyz are now bad. They are bad since the summer. GW crippled them to oblivion in the new codex. Nothing can makes them more useless. And I say it as a player that used a trukk Boyz for a couple of months! So any zero is still a zero. No stress. Just wait for the right moment.
- last few years my buddy thinks to burn his marvelous IG army. I 'm trying to help,him to make it works. Hey guys! You think orks sucks? Try to build a competitive IG list! And it takes a real years already!!!
Orks are not a competitive meta chaser faction. It is a fun faction. That is why all of us loves the orks. We can glue whatever we want, we can paínt whatever we want and we can make a mess. That is the fun.
If someone wants to keep his speed with the meta, do it like Jidmah or others. Have another armies and focus on one that is actualy a bigger dog. That is a warhammer 40k. Look at me - I have one AdMech tshirt!
Went to a tourney last weekend, took a speed waaagh and yeah, things are a little rough, we really feel like we're missing something. Or well a lotta things.
Our options feel fairly limited, i'm sad GW didn't give us anything in the dataslate, added core to wagons and dreads even. But there you have it. Armour of contempt really hurts a lot of our meta lists who tend to rely on volume of ap1 to overwhelm durability. But at least harlies, custodes and tau could feel a little less oppressive for a while.
Will the meta shift into something we can exploit? Movement away from volume of low ap shots letting hordes stay around a little longer?
I feel really lucky that barring one player that play SoB, my meta is almost exclusively xenos players. Despite that, it does definitely make a lot of our army wide stuff like Speedwaaagh feel like it was neutered and stuff like boomboyz on deffkoptas will become absolutely mandatory. I'm not sure how much this will push SM to back to the top of the meta, but I think between DG and TS for Chaos, SoB and SM for loyalists, there's going to be many rough match-ups for Orks now that Tau, Custodes and Harlies got taken down a peg. It's really going to be a roll of the dice who you get matched with more than the list you're running IMO. Speed Mob still sadly seems like the top list despite all the changes, since at least for them they have mortal wounds to play with to get around AoC, while Goff Pressure/Alphork's reliance on hitting hard and weight of attacks lost a lot more from losing AP-1.
Marines are sv 3+. They can get +1 cover and +1 AOC = there are two types of weapons that wins
AP 0 weapons, because there couldn ' t be a save better than 2+. So marine in cover is 2+ anyway.
AP -3 and better do sv4+. That is the area where invu starts to appear.
So let' s call the best weapons AP 0 in mass and AP -3 or -4
So I see two obvious winners:
MANs with Kustom Shootas and PKs = this is athe AP0 and AP-3 combination. And they works as we can see in last week CI - both lists had mass of MANs. One with Kustom Shootas and second one with kombi skorchas.
And the second winner is…. MEGA DREADS! My favourite! CC weapons are AP-3 or -4 and their autohitting gatling is 5/0/1.
Or deffdread with KMB or kustom shootas and his ap-3 klaws.
Interesting stuff appeared in Speed Mob garage too. The long time hated Snazzwagon seems to be good buggy right now. 14 dakkarange shots with ap-3 in speedwaagh DMG 2 = almost 2 dead marines a turn for 90p
And Boomboyz deffkoptas of course with ap -4 and dmg 3 for all this dmg reductions and FNP = 4 dead marines a turn for 250p. Snazzwagon seems to be better.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But generaly nothing hot. AoC is bloody strong…
Automatically Appended Next Post: But generaly nothing hot. AoC is bloody strong…
I really do think AoC shuld have been written so as to not stack with light cover - justify it like they did in the Space Marine video game, power armored SM types (and apparently sisters) barely care about cover, it provides no better protection that what they already wear. I haven't played against it with Orks yet, but AP-1 guns against AoC units in cover just feels unfun.
after some small games and seeing what works it seems our new best options are now... mostly the new stuff. Was this intentional or just incompetence lining up with making people buy newest models? welcome to mortal wounds are the best we can do edition orks
Its the stronges tlist I cna make that can actually stand a chance against power armor. 2x 2k point games in for validation (more needed obviously) feels like you are in an uphill battle but you can outplay codex space marine with it.
If AoC gave rise to Deff Dreads i would be one happy Ork cause i love those evil things, but dreads have same old issue, they lack delivery, so one or 2 in deep strike is as best as i would go i think.
I think we are going to see rise of MANZ with combi skorchas
I also think burna boyz in a truck might be worth a while now? Just a guess i can't play i moved to a new country can't find people that play + i don't have the models too.
Warbiker's shooting is also decent, it's about volume of shoots not the AP.
Kannonwagon or Gunwagon for +1 to hit and decent AP
Most buggies bar the squigbuggie seem ok, but you can tell me otherwise, they seem to have decent stats. Squigbugguie competes with mech guns i think.
Mech guns with kustom mega kannon are also nice, i would go pairs.
Defkoptas and wazboom but that's already known ahaha.
Battlewagon with rolas are also nice, not over the top but you will se them a lot more with MANZ, I know many are saying that Nobz suck but for a cheap elite you can put inside Battlewagon safely and in good number. If you manage to deliver they probably do as much as MANZ and live just as long, please some one correct me on that.
I am not entirely sold on the Kill Rigg, if it could transport anything, i would be ok with it too, since it would give a nice option to the battlewagon with psychic powers, specially with the new secondary
I think Kans are also more interesting considering now...
Squig Boyz are also very interesting at 75points for 3 riders with nice stats. But more importantly a 10inch move to follow those wagons.
That's my take. But it is sad to see, with the new AoC, Boyz are basicly dead and squigbuggies barely deserve a spot being doubly hit.
Being honest it had been around a year since I lost to speesh marines so the AoC should bring them up the competitive ladder.
We were high B low A tier before this. Worse armies than us have been brought up and better armies brought down.
I think we now have good play into custodes and tau and even quins. I played dark eldar before the last nerf and remember thinking that it was tough but not impossible. After their nerfs they still remained challenging but became definitely easier to beat.
CaptainO wrote: Being honest it had been around a year since I lost to speesh marines so the AoC should bring them up the competitive ladder.
We were high B low A tier before this. Worse armies than us have been brought up and better armies brought down.
I think we now have good play into custodes and tau and even quins. I played dark eldar before the last nerf and remember thinking that it was tough but not impossible. After their nerfs they still remained challenging but became definitely easier to beat.
Tldr; we'll be fine.
Speed mob has a clear path -- it's worse than before, but Boom Boy Copters will help offset this new AoC BS.
Regular Waaagh is a dumpster fire, though. The # of losing or unfavoured matchups Orks have is crippling. Heck, even post nerf, Custodes, Tau, and Harlies probably will beat us cleanly or are favoured to beat us.
I don't think you can build a regular Waaaagh TAC that can comfortably tech into beating power armour *and* Elves.
Ya boomboyz is now even more important. It means neither of my wazbomms can take flyboy which in turn makes freebootas more appealing (I wouldn't want to take flyboyz instead of get a +1 to hit)
You may be right about speed waagh v regular waagh but it's probably best to see that as a glass half full situation. My warbikes were not great into MEQs before but are even worse now although the additional +1 ap from the chaaarge means they can be still used in a pinch.
My deffkopta heavy speed mob has plenty of ap-2/-3 d3 so it'll probably be fine
Tomsug wrote: So, who played already with the new dataslate? Reports!
I played into Ultramarine successors on Sunday. We played Tide of Conviction and I went second.
My list was:
Spoiler:
DS Battalion/Vanguard
MAWB - Ard, Krushin
Weirdboy - Cybork
Foot boss - Killa Klaw, Brutal But Kunnin
8x10 Beast Snagga Boyz
Pain boy - Big Gob
6 Kommandos
2x5 Kommandos
2x5 Burna Boyz
2x5 MANz 2x6 Stormboyz
My opponent had a bunch of heavy intercessors, plasma redemptor, 2x5 hellblasters, eradicators, some characters and other infantry.
I took banners, strangle, and warp ritual. My opponent took no prisoners, warp ritual, oath. He conceded top of 4 after I gave him a 4 on primary T2 and a 0 on primary T3 and RND was not going to happen beyond two quarters. The output of the army into that much gravis felt absolutely horrible but the plan was to just push obsec bodies on to every objective and win on primary.
Going forward I think I'm going to try something like this:
Spoiler:
MAWB - Ard, Krushin
Weirdboy - Cybork
Bike boss - Killa Klaw, Brutal But Kunnin
KFF Mek
3x5 MANz 3x6 Stormboyz
2x10 Nobz w/ klaws
3 Wagons w/ rollas and ard cases
10 Grots
Need more testing with orks but it's definitely much harder into marines these days.
Tomsug wrote: Yeah, infantry without transports strugle like a hell. Wagons are definitely a way to go.
The problem is, all our infantry is over costed garbage.
I can't justify spending 70 points to house a 100 point ork boyz unit that apart from being obsec and having a single P/Klaw does absolutely nothing and dies as soon as it disembarks.
I run 2 units of trukkboyz because I am forced too if I want to have any obsec in the list, but its painful.
I suppose meganobz are the best infantry we have into the armour of contempt meta, and it does make double kill saw viable again.
I had a game againts new Tyranids (without any extensions) with my Speed Mob yesterday.
It was like a mirror match. Just better. His main tricks? For 1 CP one bug can go out of the table on the end of the turn and second bug - hive tyrand - can move after CC and move himself back for free (spell). Move himself back behind tyrand bodyguards in 6” aura from some another bugs giving -1 to hit and -1 to wound. So you cannot shoot him before you shoot down bodyguards with -1 to hit and -1 to wound too.
Oh yes and as an support he had 2 Harpys - jetbugs that have a very strong antitank shooting.
Looked like game designers used one concept twice…. Just make it more dangerous.
I lost and need to think about it. Harpys must die ASAP. That is obvious. But what next? Try to broke his -1 to anything castle? Chmmm…..
Maybe I try it another way. Just keep him eating single buggy a turn and kill all of his other stuff around to stop him scoring… Hive Tyrands was able to move 17” + charge, man can avoid it…. But it' s not so easy….
New nids are in a different ball park altogether than most of the armies, including ours, right now due to the unclear nature of whether or not they can still use crusher stampede. Even without it, they have very cost efficient units like Harpies for crazy strong anti-tank that can really chew through speed mob units while having crazy mortal wound output with Maleceptor/Neurothrope combo. It's kind of hard on what to suggest since they can pop the 5++/4++ imperative when needed so it's hard to alpha strike them and most of their synapse units can be pretty well protected between Tyrant Guard and other screening units. Attack of the Sun Deffkoptas and maybe some units using Drive-By-Dakka seem to be the only ways we can kind of bumrush them with dakka without overly committing our units to die by return fire.
I really do wish they would just bring back 5th ed core rules at this point. They still seem to have no concept of how a -1 modifier affects a low versus a high roll check.
So the decision makeing proces is aproximately like this:
If you take two wazbooms, you put 500p which is 25% of your army in the air. Your game plan have to be about getting to the opponent fast also with the rest of the army and kill as much asap. Because Wazbooms will be target n1 ASAP and all of the enemy fire will focus on wazbooms. And they propably gonna die. So you need to kill their anti-wazboom units first.
If you take two dakkajets, you have just abou 250p in the air but in the same chasi and the same ammount of wounds. But with the 50% killing potential. This sounds more like a gameplan with the focus on what is going on the ground and the dakkajets are there just for flexibility and power to clean objective holders behind the corner. And soak a lot of enemy firepower before thei die.
Look at their power - typical example are Duhkari Wracks. 5 of them sits back and you want them die. Dakkajet has 36 shots on 5+ = 12 hits. Wound on 3+ = 8 wounds. Wracks with 6++ and 5+++ reduce it to 6,66 and than 4,44 = you propably kill 5 Wracks a turn. That is nice but nothing to write home about.
And jets are always the targets n1. They are huge models and moving 60” around the table and shoot at anything. Everybody wants them dead.
So the 2 dakkajet option is better protection of your army than a KFF. In first and second turn at least. Kill two jets in a turn is a hard task even for the top meta armies and even such armies have to waste a huge ammount of their firepower to kill them.
Just don' t be stupid and do NOT fly directly to your opponent on both his flanks. Most of the warhammer shooting weapons has a limited range (on slow platform). Do not offer a target to all of the opponents shooting. Be clever. Deploy planes in the deepest corners of your deploy each on the other side. If they survive, one flyies directly to the opponents corner and the second like a proper jets turns and fly 60” to the same side of the table like the first one. Just not back in the deploy but next to the half of the table side. Do it like this and you focus the firepower on one side of the table and kill there a lot. On the other side, in opponents turn for most of the army the jets will be out of range. And in your next turn, if both of the jets are still alive, you should be able to move so, that the first jet goes to another quater of the table and the second stays in the same a you start The Great Rotation both jets scoring Engage.
The fact is that if you do it right and silent the opponents firepower anable to kill your jets and still have two wazbooms on the table after that, you propably win the game. Because the ammount of the dakka wazbooms in full load can do is really scary.
But aou cannot hide them and some armies simple kill them turn 1. Againts such armies you need to put the wazbooms in reserves to hide if go second. Because if you go second and lost both of your wazbooms before they shoot, you lost the game.
So back to the core of your question - what jet shall you assamble? Well, I love jets and play tham almost in every list last couple of years. There used to be times, it was a Dakkajet. And wazbooms sucks like a hell. Than they became fine. Than there was a very funny period of exploding Burna Bommers. The only that was not cool for a long time is a Blitza Bommer. So I guess Blitza Bommer will be cool in some of the next expansions.
So magnetize. Really. Trust me. Take a saw and cut your finished jet to magnetize him later is a really paintfull process. You don' t want to do it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And have them two. Jets needs to be in pair. Both or non.
Awesome post Tomsug. Ork Flight Skool kunnin' at it´s best
I have been caught out. I was one of those people who made conversions and cool models for the glory of my shelf and now someone has seen their new Tyranids codex and wants to challenge me to a 1000 point game. I have never played, so I am terrified I will embarrass the boyz and bring great shame to Gork and Mork.
What I have: 2 dragsters, 1 kustom boosta blaster, 1 wartrike, 6 warbikes, 1 trukk, 1 big trakk, 1 big mek with KFF, 10 kommandos, 1 dakkajet, 30 boyz, 6 manz, 1 warboss, 10 gretchin. I have a reasonable proxy for a warboss on squigosaur, and might be able to rush a second trukk.
He is not a serious competitive player, but he has lots of models. What are my options?
soupnun wrote: I have been caught out. I was one of those people who made conversions and cool models for the glory of my shelf and now someone has seen their new Tyranids codex and wants to challenge me to a 1000 point game. I have never played, so I am terrified I will embarrass the boyz and bring great shame to Gork and Mork.
What I have: 2 dragsters, 1 kustom boosta blaster, 1 wartrike, 6 warbikes, 1 trukk, 1 big trakk, 1 big mek with KFF, 10 kommandos, 1 dakkajet, 30 boyz, 6 manz, 1 warboss, 10 gretchin. I have a reasonable proxy for a warboss on squigosaur, and might be able to rush a second trukk.
He is not a serious competitive player, but he has lots of models. What are my options?
If you can proxy a weirdboy and play the normal boyz as beast snaggas I'd try something like this Goff battalion:
I mean, still another 8+ months before tis gone, though even with it i don't think orks will be on a level playing field and always in an uphill battle to reach upper placement at a tournament. def good for pickup games and being able to hang with the casual levels of play though
Speed Mob's life is nearing an end -- It'll expire end of this year.
For the health of the Ork codex, this is for the best, as it is the only thing propping up Ork win rates. It needs to retire.
I get the impression that date is just for that document since it doesn’t appear they plan on updating it much.
It basically says every supplement expires in 2023…. That’s not usually the case unless 10th edition is coming January 2023.
Speed Mob's life is nearing an end -- It'll expire end of this year.
For the health of the Ork codex, this is for the best, as it is the only thing propping up Ork win rates. It needs to retire.
I get the impression that date is just for that document since it doesn’t appear they plan on updating it much.
It basically says every supplement expires in 2023…. That’s not usually the case unless 10th edition is coming January 2023.
Keep in mind, the books are officially out of print on the GW site. Means it would be awkward for new players / new people to an army to use all, if not the best stuff, since you're required to have the physical books at GW events.
It also means they have less books they have to FAQ / maintain if they are shifted to narrative / casual play only.
It could also be an indication 10th is coming in 2023 yes.
Speed Mob's life is nearing an end -- It'll expire end of this year.
For the health of the Ork codex, this is for the best, as it is the only thing propping up Ork win rates. It needs to retire.
I get the impression that date is just for that document since it doesn’t appear they plan on updating it much.
It basically says every supplement expires in 2023…. That’s not usually the case unless 10th edition is coming January 2023.
Keep in mind, the books are officially out of print on the GW site. Means it would be awkward for new players / new people to an army to use all, if not the best stuff, since you're required to have the physical books at GW events.
It also means they have less books they have to FAQ / maintain if they are shifted to narrative / casual play only.
It could also be an indication 10th is coming in 2023 yes.
It’s not just 2023. It’s every book expires on January 2023. It doesn’t make sense especially when they still allow in this document Army supplements from 8th edition. It’s a placeholder date unless they just plan to reset all rules in January.
Speed Mob's life is nearing an end -- It'll expire end of this year.
For the health of the Ork codex, this is for the best, as it is the only thing propping up Ork win rates. It needs to retire.
I get the impression that date is just for that document since it doesn’t appear they plan on updating it much.
It basically says every supplement expires in 2023…. That’s not usually the case unless 10th edition is coming January 2023.
Keep in mind, the books are officially out of print on the GW site. Means it would be awkward for new players / new people to an army to use all, if not the best stuff, since you're required to have the physical books at GW events.
It also means they have less books they have to FAQ / maintain if they are shifted to narrative / casual play only.
It could also be an indication 10th is coming in 2023 yes.
It’s not just 2023. It’s every book expires on January 2023. It doesn’t make sense especially when they still allow in this document Army supplements from 8th edition. It’s a placeholder date unless they just plan to reset all rules in January.
Dendarien wrote: Speed mob is probably dead competitively even with the supplement. Armor of contempt laughs at buggy and kopta shooting.
If this is the case boy oh boy, the bottom is going to look grim.
I think Boom Boys *can* help a bit but it might not be enough.
I suspect we're going to be on the bottom of the heap though with Necrons and Chaos Daemons. Post codex, I reckon Knights / Chaos Knights will get the jump on us.
I don' t see the reason, why the Speed Mob should be dead. Speed Mob has the right weapons to kill AOC stuff. I play Speed Mob and already did it.
I think it is great news that Speed Mob and Blood Axe suplement will be valid at least to next the January. It ' s more than I expected. Now we can make some plans and make more buggies!
It's really bad how quickly GW are going through their physical rulesets, their shelf-life was never that long to begin with but they're churning through them at such a rate and invalidating them with such large sweeping updates that there's very little incentive to not just use sites like wahapedia to actually have up to date rulesets. I'm wondering if GW will be forced at some point in 10th ed to resort to a proper living ruleset at some point because I'm sure people are sick of the level of rules churn that is going on right now.
Dendarien wrote: Speed mob is probably dead competitively even with the supplement. Armor of contempt laughs at buggy and kopta shooting.
Woah, that's a bit excessive. Keep in mind that quins, custodes and tau have categorically gotten worse since last week and its only really the MEQs and guard (who were pretty trash last week) who have gotten better.
Armies above are down, armies below are up that's what happens when you sit as a high B tier low A tier army. Don't get me wrong beating MEQs will be harder but it's not impossible. Previously custodes were hard to beat but again not impossible, they've become a lot more beatable now.
Regarding deffkoptas being underpowered, ap-3 for two turns (with ap-4 for the boomboyz) and access to mortal wounds for a 1cp strat means they can still cause MEQs major issues.
I'm running a RTT on Saturday so I may eat my words but from the game I played last week we're ok.
It will always be dependent on your local meta and your expectations, but there are a lot of forces moving against speed mob right now.
Competitive marine lists will be very resilient to AP 1 and 2 shooting and even AP3 depending on how well they can grab cover.
Everyone will start teching even more weapons that are good into buggies/koptas/bikes as they gear up to shoot marines, crisis suits, and tyranid big bugs.
Tau really lost nothing into orks. Tau was already very efficient at shooting ork vehicles and will only be bringing more of those weapons in the future.
If you're just playing games at the store vs unoptimized lists you'll be fine, but against the real A tier armies and even some of the B tier armies I think speed mob is going to struggle to get the damage output it needs.
Mmm, not sure if i'd say speedmob is dead. But it's toolbox is a bit weaker for sure. It's anti infantry won't be as affective against a huge chunk of armies, bikers losing a lot of what made them good, access to like 16 ap-1 attacks per model a turn if you can charge after shooting.
It's anti tank is still okay with the wazboms, rokkits and shokk rifles. To say nothing of it's mortal wound capacity.
Speedmob is the only ork list left that’s mildly competitive…but the options are more limited.
I mean ap-2 koptas that are ap-3 for 2 turns.with drive by Dakka and crashing through are still great.. not every kopta needs to be ap-3 and ap-4 for 2 turns.
scrapjets are similar and still great…
Wazboms are still great…
Warboss on bikes are still great…
The only issue is that warbikers shooting sucks even during a speedwaaagh… (-1ap) but they always sucked at shooting.. I mean squigbuggies are dead now and Dakkajets have a more limited target pool with power armor change.
gungo wrote: Speedmob is the only ork list left that’s mildly competitive…but the options are more limited.
I mean ap-2 koptas that are ap-3 for 2 turns.with drive by Dakka and crashing through are still great.. not every kopta needs to be ap-3 and ap-4 for 2 turns.
scrapjets are similar and still great…
Wazboms are still great…
Warboss on bikes are still great…
The only issue is that warbikers shooting sucks even during a speedwaaagh… (-1ap) but they always sucked at shooting.. I mean squigbuggies are dead now and Dakkajets have a more limited target pool with power armor change.
beg to differ on the speedwaagh being the only option, its probably our most commonly used one and what people are used to as it resembles what worked before. I think its outclassed by the mortal wound spam list now. I think there may be a place for a killrig getting booted for trukkboyz and some komandoes but i am still working on it.
gungo wrote: Speedmob is the only ork list left that’s mildly competitive…but the options are more limited.
I mean ap-2 koptas that are ap-3 for 2 turns.with drive by Dakka and crashing through are still great.. not every kopta needs to be ap-3 and ap-4 for 2 turns.
scrapjets are similar and still great…
Wazboms are still great…
Warboss on bikes are still great…
The only issue is that warbikers shooting sucks even during a speedwaaagh… (-1ap) but they always sucked at shooting.. I mean squigbuggies are dead now and Dakkajets have a more limited target pool with power armor change.
beg to differ on the speedwaagh being the only option, its probably our most commonly used one and what people are used to as it resembles what worked before. I think its outclassed by the mortal wound spam list now. I think there may be a place for a killrig getting booted for trukkboyz and some komandoes but i am still working on it.
I dont see the wurrboy being efficient when we have kill rigs. the same abilities cant be cast at twice anyway. The wurrboy is also too slow to get in to range as the wurrboys spells are very short ranged.
wurrboy is basically just a 70 point smite that fits the rest of the build. its not my set in stone list yet so he is not necessarily a must take. He does seem to be doing work, his eye when it hits is nice, str 6 ap-3 damage D3 only gets a couple hits a game but can whittle something down or help chip down a screening unit. coupled with those reasonably reliable smites and he earns back his points while often making it to the end of the game alive.
G00fySmiley wrote: wurrboy is basically just a 70 point smite that fits the rest of the build. its not my set in stone list yet so he is not necessarily a must take. He does seem to be doing work, his eye when it hits is nice, str 6 ap-3 damage D3 only gets a couple hits a game but can whittle something down or help chip down a screening unit. coupled with those reasonably reliable smites and he earns back his points while often making it to the end of the game alive.
I would probably just use a normal weirdboy with fist of gork and warpath if smite was the only thing you wanted from him then. At least those 2 spells are good buffs.
worth experimenting, though then he can't get in a killring when needing to move. doesn't always do that in current list though as he is out of a transport to start and cannot fit in one.
will experiment with it as i swap a trukkboy for a beassnagga squad and a kill rig and see what else i end up with
gungo wrote: Speedmob is the only ork list left that’s mildly competitive…but the options are more limited.
I mean ap-2 koptas that are ap-3 for 2 turns.with drive by Dakka and crashing through are still great.. not every kopta needs to be ap-3 and ap-4 for 2 turns.
scrapjets are similar and still great…
Wazboms are still great…
Warboss on bikes are still great…
The only issue is that warbikers shooting sucks even during a speedwaaagh… (-1ap) but they always sucked at shooting.. I mean squigbuggies are dead now and Dakkajets have a more limited target pool with power armor change.
beg to differ on the speedwaagh being the only option, its probably our most commonly used one and what people are used to as it resembles what worked before. I think its outclassed by the mortal wound spam list now. I think there may be a place for a killrig getting booted for trukkboyz and some komandoes but i am still working on it.
Trukk boys are a wet sock now and
Beastsnaggas aren’t much better… ap-1 low strap-1 are mostly trash… beastsnaggas have a place in a vehicle/monster meta, but that’s not the current meta right now.
I like the beastsnagga list it’s not bad but it’s not competitive.. it’s significantly weaker then the pre chapter approved version by a mile and all the new codexs since have been tuned up to 12.. pretty much most of what you are relying upon went up significantly in cost (killrigs and beastboss on squig) heck mozrog wasn’t even as good when he was 30 points cheaper. I mean I haven’t seen a blitza Bomber in a competitive list since 8th edition. I mean I like the list it was great 5 months ago before it was directly nerfed… not saying it’s useless but no it’s not competitive. It’s a bunch of slow short range beta striking psychic spam lists that bleeds mission points and lacks any durability.
AP-1 ain't so how with Armor of Contempt, but S5 is a good value to have-just enough to wound most troops on 3s and nothing worse than 5s.
Edit: Actually, I think the named Keeper of Secrets take you to 6s to-wound. It's T7 with -1 to-wound in melee, if I recall correctly. So outside that, nothing worse than 5s.
AP-1 ain't so how with Armor of Contempt, but S5 is a good value to have-just enough to wound most troops on 3s and nothing worse than 5s.
Edit: Actually, I think the named Keeper of Secrets take you to 6s to-wound. It's T7 with -1 to-wound in melee, if I recall correctly.
So outside that, nothing worse than 5s.
It’s a heavy bolter it’s not good… if it makes you feel better you can call it not high..str6 and str8 tend to be the break points..
I agree I do like str5 in mass melee especially if you have a way to gain the extra +1 str w a strat or on charge… but let’s not pretend a handful of str5 ap1 1 dam atks are good on the current meta. You either need greentide levels of atk spam on it or a lot of reroll to hit/wounds to get value out of that unit since they are going to melt the next turn.
RandomHeretic wrote: Hello green tactical types! Today we have a battle report where hive fleet leviathan takes on the goffs. How do these armies fare post data slate?
AP-1 ain't so how with Armor of Contempt, but S5 is a good value to have-just enough to wound most troops on 3s and nothing worse than 5s.
Edit: Actually, I think the named Keeper of Secrets take you to 6s to-wound. It's T7 with -1 to-wound in melee, if I recall correctly.
So outside that, nothing worse than 5s.
It’s a heavy bolter it’s not good… if it makes you feel better you can call it not high..str6 and str8 tend to be the break points..
I agree I do like str5 in mass melee especially if you have a way to gain the extra +1 str w a strat or on charge… but let’s not pretend a handful of str5 ap1 1 dam atks are good on the current meta. You either need greentide levels of atk spam on it or a lot of reroll to hit/wounds to get value out of that unit since they are going to melt the next turn.
Goff kullture as the inate 1+ S on charge which is easy to pull off, and the army is all about melee. I don't agree with your conclusion, ork armies are ok S wise.
Goff kullture as the inate 1+ S on charge which is easy to pull off, and the army is all about melee. I don't agree with your conclusion, ork armies are ok S wise.
We're definitely fine in terms of Strength. It's AP where we struggle if anywhere.
I've fallen back to the old ways of just drowning things in volume shots, and fortunately things that we were already running like koptas, snazzwagons and scrapjets put out a good amount of shots at a respectable power level.
I'm also running the Dragsta again. It's essentially another KMK that can be wherever it wants, and we all know KMKs are decent.
AP-1 ain't so how with Armor of Contempt, but S5 is a good value to have-just enough to wound most troops on 3s and nothing worse than 5s.
Edit: Actually, I think the named Keeper of Secrets take you to 6s to-wound. It's T7 with -1 to-wound in melee, if I recall correctly.
So outside that, nothing worse than 5s.
It’s a heavy bolter it’s not good… if it makes you feel better you can call it not high..str6 and str8 tend to be the break points..
I agree I do like str5 in mass melee especially if you have a way to gain the extra +1 str w a strat or on charge… but let’s not pretend a handful of str5 ap1 1 dam atks are good on the current meta. You either need greentide levels of atk spam on it or a lot of reroll to hit/wounds to get value out of that unit since they are going to melt the next turn.
Goff kullture as the inate 1+ S on charge which is easy to pull off, and the army is all about melee. I don't agree with your conclusion, ork armies are ok S wise.
As I stated I like str 5 when you get +1 str but a handful of str 5 ap-1 1 dam atks are not good in the current meta. I’m not sure how else to state this.. if this was good we wouldn’t have a problem killing most other armies troops on the charge. But our troops regularly charge and fail to wipe out other troops unless we severely out number them points wise. It’s not an even trade.. durability has skyrocketed the last 6 months..
Beastsnaggas aren’t much better… ap-1 low strap-1 are mostly trash… beastsnaggas have a place in a vehicle/monster meta, but that’s not the current meta right now.
Says that Strength 5 is low.
It's not. There's nothing in the game, outside the named Keeper Of Secrets, that you wound only on 6s. You wound the majority of Infantry on a 3+.
Strength 5 is actually a GREAT Strength value, because it's just high enough to wound one point better on many models-notably, T4, T5, and T8 models.
It's everything else that's hurting Orks right now.
Beastsnaggas aren’t much better… ap-1 low strap-1 are mostly trash… beastsnaggas have a place in a vehicle/monster meta, but that’s not the current meta right now.
Says that Strength 5 is low.
It's not. There's nothing in the game, outside the named Keeper Of Secrets, that you wound only on 6s. You wound the majority of Infantry on a 3+.
Strength 5 is actually a GREAT Strength value, because it's just high enough to wound one point better on many models-notably, T4, T5, and T8 models.
It's everything else that's hurting Orks right now.
S5 isn't low strength, but its nowhere near as good as it was just 1 edition ago. Transhuman seems to be everywhere, -1 to wound is becoming more common, T5 is starting to become the norm for competitive builds..i mean, Custards are across the board T5, Gravis Marines are T5 etc. So again, its not low strength, but its sure as hell not as good as it was just a few years ago.
And beastsnaggas are pretty terrible atm. The fact you need a killrig is a bit annoying
It's not. There's nothing in the game, outside the named Keeper Of Secrets, that you wound only on 6s.
Any Warboss datasheet with 'Ard as Nails? They're all T6 minimum.
I would argue that most warbosses are generally taken out by what are for all intents and purposes anti-tank weapons, so the T6 is usually somewhat irrelevant.
Obviously any discussions about 'Ard as Nails, Transhuman and like abilities are very much valid though.
It's not. There's nothing in the game, outside the named Keeper Of Secrets, that you wound only on 6s.
Any Warboss datasheet with 'Ard as Nails? They're all T6 minimum.
Ah, okay. So one unique character and Warbosses with a certain Warlord Trait.
Edit: Also, I think a few Relics can get -1 to-wound on the Characters, but I don't think any of them are T6 or higher. Point is, T6-8 with -1 to-wound is rare as heck.
Still, S5 is a good spot to be in. I mean, if you're bringing up Transhuman, I'd like to point out that (against Primaris Transhuman, at least) S5 is equal to S16, but you pay less for it, so...
The issues Ork melee has is delivery and AP. Strength and # of attacks is fine.
But a slow melee army with a 6+ (or 6++) save has always been the issue and still remains. And even if we connect, we can be as low as AP0. Just not worth the effort.
It was a bit dissapointing that GW didn't give us any buffs in the dataslate. We've been hit pretty consistently with direct and indirect buffs of late. Our melee has lot a lot of it's lustre with some of the nonsense other factions can pull off now, the armour of contept ability and a steady increase in the amount of -1 damage hanging about.
Our best weapon profile at the moment is probably the rokkit. Even our Klaws feel a bit meh and killsaws are laughably meh for what you pay. We really should have a thunder hammer equivalent as a faction.
I am firmly in the camp that it's mostly delivery and AP that is our issue.
I honestly would trade for more survival across the board on all models. If they can live through the damage, our units can deliver.. but that's if they can survive, we have really good S lie mentioned and eventhough we have low AP we can flood with attcks and shots, but that's irrelevan't if the unit can't even survive.
Maybe i am wrong it's such a mess, but what AoC show's is that the current meta is too killy and maybe asking for more damage is not healthy for the overall game
It is definitely about delivery and anything else than S5. It' s about AP, about mortal wounds, fight first or stuff like this and of course about scoring.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mark Buckwalter 2nd on Berst Spring Assault. A LOT of meganobz
EDIT! There is some mess in BCP. Mark was 3rd and his army was EVIL SUNZ. Not DS.
Well I won my first game against Drukhari yesterday. I don’t remember all the details as I was drinking Took a bit of adjusting mentally as everything that did well agains marines got vaporised early (my opponent got first turn).
I thought I had lost but then unloaded my transports ( pretty much all I had left) and they held the objectives after I wiped most of his infantry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And footslogging!!!
Thats certainly an interesting list. Do we know what his match ups
and secondaries were?
I'm intrigued by the lack of a Megaboss for durability, and the lack of kombi-skorchas on at least some of the MANz.
I would love to see some BatReps/write ups.
Well I checked it and
- list in BCP is wrong. He played EVIL SUNZ
His comments from FB:
WHY EVIL SUNZ?
Yeah the move buffs and WL trait are huge. The army is to slow in any other faction. It has hard counters I just have to hope I don't run into. Most power armor marines it handles ok but DA terminator spam is a tough fight.
MATCH UPS
Played GK twice and Chaos. The changes with AOC hurt some but it was manageable. I lost to the chaos list that won. That list took advantage of all the crap that still existed in 8th while paring in some 9th rules too. It would have done ok against that list too but I failed all but one charge in a turn and that left me in a bad spot. Then I just started getting owned by double shooting oblits and soulburners. For the record AOC works on cultists too.
How did you deliver the meganobz?
ram them up
Automatically Appended Next Post: It was obviously a local tournament, so be careful…
It was obviously a local tournament, so be careful…
Good on the guy for the RTT placement, but hoping to avoid bad matchups will not go so well if you go to a major.
But good to see someone applying the theory of just spamming Mega nobs and being done with it. We need AP, they got the best AP we can muster.
I still might prefer deathskulls in that style. Mega Nobs are still slows as balls even in ES, might as well have a ton of Obsec. Or Goffs, as exploding 5s or 6s really amps up the output. Mega Nobs don't really have the same weight of dice other units have, and that'll bounce into like DA.
Forceride wrote: I am firmly in the camp that it's mostly delivery and AP that is our issue.
I honestly would trade for more survival across the board on all models. If they can live through the damage, our units can deliver.. but that's if they can survive, we have really good S lie mentioned and eventhough we have low AP we can flood with attcks and shots, but that's irrelevan't if the unit can't even survive.
Maybe i am wrong it's such a mess, but what AoC show's is that the current meta is too killy and maybe asking for more damage is not healthy for the overall game
The problem is that yes the game is absolutely far too killy atm, but that isn't likely to change anytime soon. I ran the numbers a bit ago, but the post 44.4% nerf to Voidweavers still leaves it with HIGHER average dmg output than the PRE NERF squigbuggy. So simply increasing dmg reduction to a slew of factions without addressing the glaring holes in the other 60% of the game isn't going to fix anything except increase their power level while hurting everyone elses.
And lets face the facts here. The biggest "buffs" the ork codex received were T5 and -1AP choppas. Morale for the most part cancels out the buff of T5 and this AoC buff for Power armor cancels out our -1AP to the tune of about 40-60%. So what did we get in our new codex now that the dust has mostly settled? buggies got a bit cheaper (some at least), Kommandos are neat though their power level is now severely limited, some wicked cool looking new models (beast snaggas) and that is about it.
As far as the meganob spam list that placed 3rd, props to the guy for pulling that one off, but a 24 person tourny isn't exactly going to tell us all that much about the meta, especially when the matchups were basically 3 relatively easy matchups. Still a nice accomplishment but unless there are 5 rounds and the army plays against the meta lists its not going to tell us much.
Dendarien wrote: Speed mob is probably dead competitively even with the supplement. Armor of contempt laughs at buggy and kopta shooting.
Woah, that's a bit excessive. Keep in mind that quins, custodes and tau have categorically gotten worse since last week and its only really the MEQs and guard (who were pretty trash last week) who have gotten better.
Armies above are down, armies below are up that's what happens when you sit as a high B tier low A tier army. Don't get me wrong beating MEQs will be harder but it's not impossible. Previously custodes were hard to beat but again not impossible, they've become a lot more beatable now.
Regarding deffkoptas being underpowered, ap-3 for two turns (with ap-4 for the boomboyz) and access to mortal wounds for a 1cp strat means they can still cause MEQs major issues.
I'm running a RTT on Saturday so I may eat my words but from the game I played last week we're ok.
Soooo I may be eating my words a little bit...
Played iron hands as part of the RTT on Saturday. -1to armour piercing is particularly good on tanks... Especially since I got overly enthusiastic with my warboss in an effort to get Deploy teleport Homer, lost him bottom of 2 so I couldn't declare the speed waagh for extra -1ap. Stupid mistake cost me the game. I really question how one would run a non speedwaagh unless you just had a load of meganobz for the higher ap.
I'm rejigging my list to two detachments so I can have two boom Boyz.
Teleport Homer and Behind enemy lines are suicide into a gun line but are good calls against knight as their current secondary rewards moving away from their deployment zone.
Tomsug wrote: Some Boyz (in mobs of 15!) krumped well
The Warhamarchy GT - Orks - Goff Pressure - 3-2 - Paul Martin - 5th
He came in 5th out of 23 players, He lost to Tau and Imperial Knights, he beat up on 2 Nidz players and a Cult Mechanicus player. I don't subscribe to BCP so I can't see their lists but that looks like he had some really good matchups against the nidz thanks to his Beast snagga heavy list.
This looks more like an objectives list rather than a Goff Pressure list.
Tomsug wrote: Some Boyz (in mobs of 15!) krumped well
The Warhamarchy GT - Orks - Goff Pressure - 3-2 - Paul Martin - 5th
He came in 5th out of 23 players, He lost to Tau and Imperial Knights, he beat up on 2 Nidz players and a Cult Mechanicus player. I don't subscribe to BCP so I can't see their lists but that looks like he had some really good matchups against the nidz thanks to his Beast snagga heavy list.
This looks more like an objectives list rather than a Goff Pressure list.
“Goff pressure list” is a buzzword. Is it a goff list? This should be a goff preasure list! No matter how does it works
Yes, it seems to be a lot about scoring. Look at his VPs. Just Tau stopped him to have 95+VPs and even agints Tau, he' s on 74. But let' s use my BCP to check details:
So I see two mostly draws and 3 massive victories. Not bad.
I see 100, 97, 97 VP and once 95 VP so this list does not work on some easy choices like Nachmund Data. This seems to be Stranglehold, Banners or Bitz and some third - killy of ritual? Isn' t there some another trick? Because score 3 x 97+ seems like some solid gameplan.
Btw.
The 6th player is another goff list by Lewis Archer
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hell! Don' t tell me, this kunnin bastard played GREEN TIDE - 3VP on the end of the turn for units with 11+ models in 2 quaters! Do you see? Even Stormboyz are in 12 model unit!
I ran 2 squads of 9 and one squad of 5 warbikers over the weekend and found it was the worst of both worlds. 9 bikes are very tough to hide and a squad of 5 means they can't reliably do RnD.
I ran freeboota instead of evil sunz which I also regreted. The mobility boost from the evil sunz warlord trait and the stat are huge. Getting the +1 to hit is nice but very tough especially against Armour of contempt.
Green tide would explain the KFF protection for the Boyz too - KFF covers them, Snaggas have their natural 6++. He's just counting on weight of T5 6++ and the threat of his actual punchy units to force the opponent to make hard choices on stopping scoring or letting him ram a bunch of squigs and/or MANz into the softest available targets. Makes sense that Tau would have been able to deal with it the best.
Siegs: "I don't respect Orks whatsoever as an army"
:(
He's not wrong though is he?
An army predicated on 5+ shooting which can then be forced into 6+ shooting army wide in many many matchups or just by the terrain itself. Coupled with a general lack of durability, tricks, awful and overcosted stratagems, very few synergies and very little combat power is never going to cut it among the S tier armies.
I said when the codex first dropped that it was a bad codex and got shouted down, we were propped up for a while by squigbuggies, scrapjets and planes being OP and under costed when spammed.
Our Kill rigs and squigosaur bosses were also slightly under costed, no doubt to encourage the sale of kits.
The heavy handed nerfs have trampled us back into C tier with the armies that haven't had a codex yet.
None of the intrinsic issues with orks were fixed. Nobody at the studio plays or cares about orks unless they want to sell a kit.
It speaks volumes now that every ork list I build avoids running ork boyz or beastsnagga boyz as they are both over costed and do nothing whatsoever in this meta. If I have to pay a troop tax I take grots and try to go down the orrible gitz root depending on how many MANZ trukk boyz I'm running or If I'm running Boomboyz Deffkoptas.
Ork Boyz are supposed to be the beating heart of the codex, the choice in the past was always how many boyz vs. how many toys.
So many units in the codex have been neglected for far too long, Have Gorkanauts or Morkanauts EVER been good? Flash gitz, Loota's, burna boyz all awful from a competitive standpoint.
Why didn't the ork codex get any interesting tools or synergies so you can try to outplay an opponent? And as we are just a dataslate army as it stands then surely our dataslates should all actually do something meaningful.
And yeah, totally agree with you. Orks aren't my only army, but it's a toolkit issue.
Compare our strats, psychic powers, synergies (via Command phase buffs, auras, etc) to other A tier or S tier armies and we are just... lacking. The main book especially is a dumpster fire. The one list that really had synergy (Freebooters plane + buggy spam) was nerfed deservedly into the ground. Tabling opponents turn 1 with nothing they can do is rightfully BS but it was really the only killer list we had.
I compare this toolkit to other armies I play and like Armour of Contempt -- strong buff. Oh, but I have tools for high AP, re-rolls, ignore light cover (big deal with a 2+ save and AoC) -- manageable.
Orks? Natta. You hide in dense cover, or gain -1 to hit in other ways, half our shooting efficiency gone, little or nothing we can we can do. Bonus AP for boys so we actually get rend in combat? Literally impossible.
Speed mob is the only list we have right now that can hang a little bit *solely* because it still has the AP actually kill stuff.
Yes, it seems to be a lot about scoring. Look at his VPs. Just Tau stopped him to have 95+VPs and even agints Tau, he' s on 74. But let' s use my BCP to check details:
1. Game Nids 100:36 for orks
So I see two mostly draws and 3 massive victories. Not bad.
I see 100, 97, 97 VP and once 95 VP so this list does not work on some easy choices like Nachmund Data. This seems to be Stranglehold, Banners or Bitz and some third - killy of ritual? Isn' t there some another trick? Because score 3 x 97+ seems like some solid gameplan.
I just read these lists and wtfLOL. Honestly I am floored. For one thing, against the first nidz list...I just don't have words. that is the most ridiculous tyranid build i have ever seen, I am not surprised in the slightest that he beat the hell out of it. As far as the Knights list I am surprised he lost to this. His Beastsnagga units are purpose built to FETH this list over. He should have been able to remove whole squads of them with ease and than camp objectives while soaking up firepower against the last unit or 2. The Tau player also is a bit surprising, you usually want 2 big blobs of Tau suits so you can buff them more efficiently. Overall this looks like a somewhat friendly event, IE no hardcore Meta lists.
As far as the codex being terrible, I disagree still. I think this codex is better than we have had in a long time. The problem is that isn't a very high bar to clear, and once we stacked up against Ad-mech and drukhari it was clear we were a good army but not top tier. Then the nerfs started to pile on and new power factions got released. As it currently stands we are a C tier army like you said. We have nothing that can stand up to the new Tau, Nidz, Harlies, Eldar nor the old Drukhari or Ad-Mech in a true top match up.
But hey, its still better than 7th when you knew from the moment you went to a game you were playing with 30% less than everyone else.
Some things I think we badly need - some of this may be a bit like wish listing on my part but I feel we need some serious fixes.
* Shooting always hits on no worse than 5+ regardless of modifiers.
* Ork boyz are the biggest problem for me, they just don't do anything, have no durability, no mobility and on the rare occasion they do get into a fight they hit like a wet towel. Need; * an advance and charge stratagem.
* a stratagem to increase the AP on choppa's on a turn when they charge
* a points reduction in line with what they actually do on a battlefield 6-7 ppm seems more than reasonable.
* Re-instate the green tide stratagem or at least give Painboyz a strat where they can revive D3+3 boyz or something per turn.
An Ork codex where Ork boyz serve no useful purpose is just wrong on so many levels.
*Would like to see a "mob up" rule to allow you to attach units of tankbusta's, loota's, burna's or flash gitz onto Ork Boyz mobs. Pre-game once "mobbed" up they count as a single unit for all purposes and can't separate. Would give our shooting infantry some much needed ablative wounds.
* Dakka weapons should also count as Assault weapons and Rokkits should return to being Assault weapons.
*KFF should return to a 5+
The game is just so deadly now the army really needs a bit of durability, it was all well and good giving us ramshackle but since then you have been handing out unconditional -1 damage and S8 guns like candy to just about every faction.
*Some of the units have been badly neglected. Gorkanauts and Morkanauts need to actually do something beyond gather dust on my shelf. It's a cool model GW, let us actually use it please! Do a quick comparison to a Mork/Gork-anaut at circa 350 points compared to any of the big Tyranid beasties for example and its simply laughable.
Siegs: "I don't respect Orks whatsoever as an army"
:(
He's not wrong though is he?
An army predicated on 5+ shooting which can then be forced into 6+ shooting army wide in many many matchups or just by the terrain itself. Coupled with a general lack of durability, tricks, awful and overcosted stratagems, very few synergies and very little combat power is never going to cut it among the S tier armies.
I said when the codex first dropped that it was a bad codex and got shouted down, we were propped up for a while by squigbuggies, scrapjets and planes being OP and under costed when spammed.
Our Kill rigs and squigosaur bosses were also slightly under costed, no doubt to encourage the sale of kits.
The heavy handed nerfs have trampled us back into C tier with the armies that haven't had a codex yet.
None of the intrinsic issues with orks were fixed. Nobody at the studio plays or cares about orks unless they want to sell a kit.
It speaks volumes now that every ork list I build avoids running ork boyz or beastsnagga boyz as they are both over costed and do nothing whatsoever in this meta. If I have to pay a troop tax I take grots and try to go down the orrible gitz root depending on how many MANZ trukk boyz I'm running or If I'm running Boomboyz Deffkoptas.
Ork Boyz are supposed to be the beating heart of the codex, the choice in the past was always how many boyz vs. how many toys.
So many units in the codex have been neglected for far too long, Have Gorkanauts or Morkanauts EVER been good? Flash gitz, Loota's, burna boyz all awful from a competitive standpoint.
Why didn't the ork codex get any interesting tools or synergies so you can try to outplay an opponent? And as we are just a dataslate army as it stands then surely our dataslates should all actually do something meaningful.
This^
And kommandos were once good too…
Imho every point hike except the +10 to scrapjets should be reverted back
The buggy unit limit removed
And actual effort to fix the rest of the ork codex should be done..
We were completely and biasedly nerfed to crap based on the fact someone was successful in manipulating aircraft bases during socal… the amount of whining and over nerfs after that was insane.. and this was mainly done because the vast majority of competitive players do not even own enough orks to play competitively with the majority of those players flat out stating they don’t play orks… it’s a broken system with a bunch of biased playtesters..
And yeah, totally agree with you. Orks aren't my only army, but it's a toolkit issue.
Compare our strats, psychic powers, synergies (via Command phase buffs, auras, etc) to other A tier or S tier armies and we are just... lacking. The main book especially is a dumpster fire. The one list that really had synergy (Freebooters plane + buggy spam) was nerfed deservedly into the ground. Tabling opponents turn 1 with nothing they can do is rightfully BS but it was really the only killer list we had.
I compare this toolkit to other armies I play and like Armour of Contempt -- strong buff. Oh, but I have tools for high AP, re-rolls, ignore light cover (big deal with a 2+ save and AoC) -- manageable.
Orks? Natta. You hide in dense cover, or gain -1 to hit in other ways, half our shooting efficiency gone, little or nothing we can we can do. Bonus AP for boys so we actually get rend in combat? Literally impossible.
Speed mob is the only list we have right now that can hang a little bit *solely* because it still has the AP actually kill stuff.
tabling an opponent turn 1 was a single tournament where he abused aircraft bases and player placed terrain.. the issue was bad aircraft rules and to a degree indirect fire which is now completely irrelevant. The nerfs to orks buggies unit limits and massive point increases to large swaths of the ork books decent units was complete overkill.
Speedmob had the durability and firepower initially as well.. bikes as objective grabbers w invuls and higher stats were decent. Army wide ramshackle and 5++ was huge… the original ability to take freebooter aircraft x2 and a evilsun detachment was best of both worlds… and yet this list still wasn’t as good as the original unnerfed goff pressure list before point hikes on key units like beastboss, kommandos, killrigs. Once GW and thier playtesters took the hammer out on the ork codex they left us nothing but deffkoptas that really shouldn’t Be able to enter reserves the turn it arrive from reserves, but at that point orks we’re already done.
No relics or traits as well, its just not worth it for me.
)
This is also very good reason why play speedmob
