Right, so some of us on Dakka have been lucky enough to have seen the new book already, and indeed had a chance to plow through it in search of tidbits and general impression.

Thusly, I felt it now warranted a new thread for summing up and overall impressions. Not looking for anyone to agree with me, just a general, multi-poster review, which can of course be added to as others have their gander at the book.

Without further ado, onto my general impression and rating of the book.

First of all, it's 528 pages as most people know, and every single one of them is in full colour. The diagrams seem nice and clear, and the index is pretty comprehensive (couple of things I looked up were under subheadings, but still easily found). In terms of overall design, the one thing I would like to have seen was multiple bookmark ribbons, as this could prove very useful. As is the one you get is useful in itself, and the main rules have a colour coded index which you can see when the book is closed, so easy reference will probably come with familiarity of the book.

Now, onto the rules themselves. From what I've read, nice and easy to follow, and written in a very friendly manner. To me this is a good thing, but it might irritate some. As mentioned the diagrams of how to work out movement etc are nice and clear, and again in full colour (which is brilliant when it explains who can fight in a combat). Some areas have been streamlined, such as movement. Biggest difference here is that you can march relatively unhindered through all but impassable terrain, but must take a Dangerous Terrain test (identical to 40k).

Of all the unit types, Cavalry suffer the most. That is not to say they have been 'nerfed' or anything, just that the various forms of Infantry have gained serious boosts, and that means the days of a handful of Cavalry bursting through your line are more or less a thing of the past.

One of the biggest improvements for Infantry is that in order to deny ranks in a flank or rear charge, you must have at least one additional rank yourself. So sure, my Hydras got even harder (I can breathe into combat!) and mash stuff up, but unless it is supported by my own infantry, the enemy are pretty much guaranteed to be Stubborn when taking that breaktest. Add in that any unit, when deployed 10 wide, can attack in not 2 but 3 ranks (more with Spears!). Though of course the supporting attacks can only be performed to the front. Yet even then, should you hold in the combat, taking a quick leadership test allows you to re-form, bringing lots of attacks to bear against your assailant!

As for game balance, my local gamers and I have the distinct impression that the book does most of it for the various armies. Ogres for instance, are now incredibly hard on the charge! Sure, the enemy are likely to go first, but Bull Charge, fighting in Ranks (Monstrous Infantry get up to 3 attacks for supporting!) and STOMP!, they ought to be winning most combats!

In terms of scale, whilst the rules do enable far larger game than standard just now, you can still play the smaller games, as it mostly means less 'Horde' units!

Overall, very impressed. Very, very nice production, and lots to learn!

Thanks for your impressions! I (and most of the rest of us, I imagine) will not be able to add mine until tomorrow, but it's always nice to get an appetizer

You are welcome dude(s)!

Also, forgot to mention, that I suspect that portions of the book might very well be testing the waters in terms of feedback for potential expansions ala Planetstrike and Cities of Death. Should be very good overall!

Thanks for the review mate!

One small quicky question since I have 50 gobbo archers on the painting table... do they gain also extra rank of shooting if 10 wide?

Cant wait for 500pages of fullcolor goodness, hope artwork is nice.

Archers have 'Volley Fire'.

All Missile Weapons can fire in two ranks now, but Volley Fire allows half the models in further ranks to fire as well, making Gobbo Archers awesome, especially with a handful of fanatics.


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Oh, and the artwork is fantastic!

Awesome mate! Thanks again!

Word.

I might start playing Fantasy again, now.

Indeed, the one thing I've heard repeatedly about Fantasy that puts people off is the models in the Ranks being relatively redundant, beyond Static Res. Certainly no longer the case now!

Mmm...horde Spears fighting in 4 ranks! Skellingtons just got naughty!


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Oh, and yes. Ranks for Monstrous Infantry etc (including Pegasus Knights and Terradons) are 3 wide for standard, 6 to get Horde!

Quick Question, are there race specific updates in the book?

Those should be coming out in PDF form.

Personally, I don't see the advantage of Horde. Unless GW's trying to convince everyone that their units should be 40+ big (which I can't see them doing successfully with any army other than VC's using Zombies), you are never going to be able to make even so-so advantage of it unless on a 20mm base facing another army that's typically wider than normal or a 25mm base enemy (and often times those are enemy units you don't want hitting your wider frontage).

Again, going by the math, best case scenario a competent opponent can only deny you six attacking models (20mm v 25mm, they went five wide). Worst case scenario, you're missing out on sixteen attacking models (25mm v 20mm, using spears, 20mm went five wide). Not anything against you Mad Doc, but those who're talking about how Horde will be this great addition simply aren't factoring in that it's easy to counter and - even if not countered - similarly easy to make up by going deep instead (Stubborn Ld 9 / 10 when near a general > > > Extra 4-6 attacks).

EDIT: Also, I'm predicting we're going to see a lot of FAQ stuff for things like Spider Riders and Wood Elves to turn into "Ignore Dangerous Terrain" instead of "Ignore Difficult / Very Difficult Terrain caused by [x]." I'm also not liking that a unit marching through woods / a bog is going to suffer some 13% casualties just because, er... they're very allergic to trees and waterlife.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Indeed, the one thing I've heard repeatedly about Fantasy that puts people off is the models in the Ranks being relatively redundant, beyond Static Res. Certainly no longer the case now!

Mmm...horde Spears fighting in 4 ranks! Skellingtons just got naughty!


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Oh, and yes. Ranks for Monstrous Infantry etc (including Pegasus Knights and Terradons) are 3 wide for standard, 6 to get Horde!

That indeed is what put me off about Fantasy (Despite still playing it).. I often joked that fantasy players pay 35$ for 5 command models with extra wounds behind them

Minsc wrote:Personally, I don't see the advantage of Horde. Unless GW's trying to convince everyone that their units should be 40+ big (which I can't see them doing successfully with any army other than VC's using Zombies), you are never going to be able to make even so-so advantage of it unless on a 20mm base facing another army that's typically wider than normal or a 25mm base enemy (and often times those are enemy units you don't want hitting your wider frontage).

Again, going by the math, best case scenario a competent opponent can only deny you six attacking models (20mm v 25mm, they went five wide). Worst case scenario, you're missing out on sixteen attacking models (25mm v 20mm, using spears, 20mm went five wide). Not anything against you Mad Doc, but those who're talking about how Horde will be this great addition simply aren't factoring in that it's easy to counter and - even if not countered - similarly easy to make up by going deep instead (Stubborn Ld 9 / 10 when near a general > > > Extra 4-6 attacks).

EDIT: Also, I'm predicting we're going to see a lot of FAQ stuff for things like Spider Riders and Wood Elves to turn into "Ignore Dangerous Terrain" instead of "Ignore Difficult / Very Difficult Terrain caused by [x]." I'm also not liking that a unit marching through woods / a bog is going to suffer some 13% casualties just because, er... they're very allergic to trees and waterlife.

Yeah horde rule seems like a gimmick they included just for people that like to run silly wide units but not viable for any kind of strategy.

Ogres also don't really come out ahead in this edition unless they run large (over 6 strong to account for ranged casualties) units which will end up being more points than most other infantry blocks and still not as effective due to mediocre weapon skill and terrible initiative and armor saves.

Mad Dok, any chance you could tell me how much the book weighs?

Ogres have a lot going for them right now in my opinion, so I am very glad I'd recently started a new army of them.

The Horde will come in very handy for units like Gobbos and even Empire State Troops. They are cheap enough to field in massive blocks, without significantly impacting upon the rest of your army. As I said (might not have been terribly clear, apologies) Horde is more about the big games (3,000+) than standard ones. Certainly I fully intend on including a unit of 18 Bulls in my 4,000 point Ogre army, for the simple reason they should be able to truly wallop pretty much anyone and anything. 6 S6 Bullcharge, followed by 63 S4 attacks (front rank have two hand weapons, plus champion, second and third ranks contribute 18 each) followed by 18 stomp attacks (anyone who fought can stomp). Mediocre weapon skill really doesn't come into it too much at this stage, as the sheer volume of Stomp ought to carry the day in most cases.

Yeah but that one unit is almost 25% of your 4000 point force which is a huge investment . It doesn't sound like a gimmick that would work in a practical game where people can out maneuver it, shoot it or cast magic at it and it has almost no real defense. You also only get the bull charge if you go 6" so most people can counter it very easily.

So what's the deal with bigger units? Are they supposed to be like 10 wide now? If you want more ranks than the other guy, it's gonna be tough to do with units that wide, not to mention just moving & turning. And then having enough points in an average game for units of 40+ models? Seems like something you'd only be able to do with little wimpy things like goblins and skaven

Thanks for the new thread. Sounds like GW really changed a lot.

Perhaps we can get a summary of confirmed changes going?

I'll probably get a look at it tomorrow, maybe not, just because I don't like driving to my GW 15 minutes away to look at the book for a few minutes.

Ixquic....charges have extended somewhat. 2D6"+ Movement, so Ogres will have an average charge reach of 13", which is pretty collossal, and means it should be easy to carry off a Bull Charge these days. Certainly it's not quite as easy to avoid as marching straight into the Ogres charge reach, shortening it to 4".

One thing I would like clarified, and if what I'm thinking is true, would really turn horde's from a powr rule to just a consolation, is this...

When determining who can fight, do we still check to see if the model has an enemy model directly in front of them? Or do all models in the first two ranks just get to attack with no restrictions.

I'm thinking that being able to fight three deep when ten wide is really only there to mitigate the fact that half of the models on your frontage won't have an enemy model in front of them, and therefore won't get to attack.

If it is irrelevant whether or not there is an enemy model in front of you, why not just go 50 wide with extra hand weapons?

Horde doesn't seem like a power ability at all.

Well, if you are 5 wide, 7 of my guys in the front rank can fight, meaning Horde gets 21 people attacking if you base is the same size.

Plus I think we will see Horde being pretty popular, mainly due to the Army Organisation.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Those should be coming out in PDF form.

Will we be seeing them before the july release or on the release date?

Can't remember 100% skip. Sorry!

Oh yeah, and they reccomend a LOT more terrain than we're used to. The change in movement (being able to move unhindered through terrain) opens it up, and makes Gunlines a lot less viable, as the time you had to blast your opponent apart is reduced somewhat, both in times of available shots, and accuracy.

I'm still on the fence. I'm going to go to a local store for a demo game on the release day and decide then. Some things in this thread sound good to me, others less so.

What I was really hoping was that there'd be all the rules for Warhammer: Skirmish in the back of the book, updated for the new rules as an appendix.

Yeah, thx for the clarfication MDG. You were actually calling 'horde' more like it is. A slight combat buff for units that essentially cost twice as much as a standard 5 wide block. Not a reason for expensive saurus warriors or chaos warriors to sink ungodly numbers of points into a single unit, more of a bonus for units consisting of 2-6 point models.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Horde is more about the big games (3,000+) than standard ones. Certainly I fully intend on including a unit of 18 Bulls in my 4,000 point Ogre army, for the simple reason they should be able to truly wallop pretty much anyone and anything. 6 S6 Bullcharge, followed by 63 S4 attacks (front rank have two hand weapons, plus champion, second and third ranks contribute 18 each) followed by 18 stomp attacks (anyone who fought can stomp). Mediocre weapon skill really doesn't come into it too much at this stage, as the sheer volume of Stomp ought to carry the day in most cases.

So I happen to have 18 treekin, was planning on fielding them in 3 units of 6 (3x2 ranks). It would be funny to field all 18 together at 6-wide and get the horde rule and the last rank attacking, although perhaps not worth it for anything more than a fun deathstar kind of game . Tempting to try just for laughs, though!

Oh aye, and Large Targets being +1 to hit has gone. Downside? Cannons and other Artillery hit BOTH rider and mount...

1) Goblins... are not benefiting from Horde. They never have, and never will, get wounds in close combat. Even against a WS<4, T3, 5+ save model, they require some six attacks on average to get a single wound. The only people who ((EDIT: Greatly)) benefit from Horde are single-attack Elite models such as Phoenix Guard and Black Guard, who get all their usual benefits at no loss.

2) +2D6 charge is bad for Ogres, as on average it's only a 4" advantage at the best of times and a parity at the worst (See: Ogres roll 3-3, M4 rolls 4-4). For very average (each rolling 3-4), there's only a 2" advantage, which isn't too hard to make up with a Banner re-roll. Yes, Ogres still charge further (as does Cavalry), but it's barely enough to really matter. At least in WotR it's a solid 6" advantage base. Which reminds me, on the WotR scale, that might have made things much better for Cavalry: They strike before infantry.

3) At my GW at least, Horde isn't going to be popular barring the units I listed in Point 1. You just have no excuse to take it on fodder, as then two smaller-front units with comparable stats are going to charge in with likely Stubborn to aid them to boot (A 6x5 Night Goblin unit would be Stubborn until 8 casualties before they reach contact with the other NG unit, which if that (big unit) suffers just 6 casualties forces the 6x5 NG unit to lose 12 models now before neither is stubborn). Most armies are going to try Horde out for a few games, realize "I can't maneuver properly like this", then go back to typical regiment sizes.

4) Large Targets are no longer +1 to hit? I have to assume they gave some disadvantage to them. "We can see over other units. We can fire over other units. But we still get soft / hard cover from troops." All I can really think of is that they can't benefit from infantry cover, but that's not really a disadvantage as they never could last edition either. Right now, it looks like LT has no disadvantage and is basically turning into Monstrous Creature.

5) All War Machines, or just template / bouncing? I find it very odd that Cannonballs hit both, but for a ST it makes sense. Too bad a ST is only going to be causing S3 (so likely full save / 6's to wound) hit on the target.

Just a quick question, are the spell lores as per the rumors the same or were there somethings that were off?

also on the horde rule and its effectiveness. I think skaven will be the ones who will benefit most as they can buy 50 skavenslaves for 100 pts. and clanrats seem to be good as well. I'm new to fantasy so I may be wildly off but some people were saying they could be extremely effective if in range of the general.

Haven't really looked at the Rumours to be honest, but the Lores are really good. Definite themes, dual casting levels for most spells, and every Lore has an 'Attribute' which gives them an edge in certain situations.

Biggest change? You pick your lore when you draw up your list, NOT when you setup on the board. Seemingly a small thing, but it prevents cherry picking to thrash your opponent.

Lores do look to be improved for those who have access to them. Fire, Light, and Death appear to be the big ones people will take (Death and Fire for major casualties, Light for all the buffs / debuffs).

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Haven't really looked at the Rumours to be honest, but the Lores are really good. Definite themes, dual casting levels for most spells, and every Lore has an 'Attribute' which gives them an edge in certain situations.

Biggest change? You pick your lore when you draw up your list, NOT when you setup on the board. Seemingly a small thing, but it prevents cherry picking to thrash your opponent.

I really like this change to magic. It does, as you said, prevents specializing and customizing your magic towards your opponent. Though, this means that GW is encouraging Open-Lists, which I agree with as well.

I agree with whoever said that Elite, single attack infantry will benefit from the horde rule the most. I thought this as well, and am eager to running 3x10 or 4x10 block of bestigors, which is going to be NASTY. Though, that is 533 points, which is including Full Command and a War Banner, that's 4x10. I'll probably go with 3x10 to be on the cheaper side at 413 points with the goodies mentioned earlier.

Heh, 3 blocks of 3x10 Bestigors with Full Command and a War Banner. THAT is a battle line, supported with some screening ungor raiders, Tuskgor Chariots, and a 1-2 units of harpies, along with the LD from my Beastlord and BSB, that would be pretty nice.

Only one would have the War Banner, and if I recall right from the Magic Item list it'll be 35pts next edition.

Bestigors aren't going to benefit from Horde as much as 20mm models (losing 9-12 attacks as opposed to 6-9), but it's still a gain. 30 models doesn't seem like it's big enough, however, as you're going to want a final rank to make sure you keep three when you reach combat.

EDIT: Speaking of Magic Items, who here can't wait for a Flying Ogre Tyrant?

Minsc, not meaning to have a go at you fella, but you are assuming that just because someone may not take advantage of the Horde rule, they are by default going to stick to 5 wide. Lots of players I've encountered already favour 6 wide, as it gives you an all important extra attack.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Minsc, not meaning to have a go at you fella, but you are assuming that just because someone may not take advantage of the Horde rule, they are by default going to stick to 5 wide. Lots of players I've encountered already favour 6 wide, as it gives you an all important extra attack.

Six wide only gives the extra attack for certain if a 25mm base: When it comes to 20mm, a six-wide front gives just as many attacks as a five-wide front if the Horde foe is 25mm. If you assume the small unit is a 25mm unit six wide, then it's less lost attacks (3-4 depending on if the 20mm has spears, 6-8 if 25mm has spears or not), but in such a case you can still mitigate.

Not trying to say Horde's completely worthless, but I'm a bit fed up having gone to my GW with people going like "OMG TEN WIDE U GET 30-40 ATTACKS!" without acknowledging that you can - even in the worst case scenario - mitigate at least 10% of the incoming attacks against you (best case scenario) and potentially up to 40%.

Most all Beastmen units except Ungors go 6 Wide for the extra attacks, the same goes for W.o.C, etc.

well, looks like I picked a bad time to run TK chariots of fire. I guess volley will help my archers though.

The more I get "confirmed" about 8th, the more certain I am that I'm going to be giving up the game entirely.

Necros wrote:So what's the deal with bigger units? Are they supposed to be like 10 wide now? If you want more ranks than the other guy, it's gonna be tough to do with units that wide, not to mention just moving & turning. And then having enough points in an average game for units of 40+ models? Seems like something you'd only be able to do with little wimpy things like goblins and skaven

The reason it is good is because with cheap troops (think skaven or goblins specifically) you can take one 10x4 unit (or deeper) instead of two 5x4 units. It is actually cheaper because you have one command instead of two and you get MORE attacks over the same frontage.

Are there rules for seige games and warbands in the big tome?

Voodoo Boyz wrote:The more I get "confirmed" about 8th, the more certain I am that I'm going to be giving up the game entirely.

You want me to put a book aside for you, or the spiffy gamers edition?

Is the "gamer's edition" the one that comes with all of the extra stuff (dice, compass-thing, etc?). I thought there was also another "collector's edition" as well... what's the difference?

Hmmm 3 x 10 hammerers?

They're already stubborn with decent toughness and saves.

So go for full static res or an extra 5-10 g-weapon attacks? I'm thinking that in the middle with the Dwarf Lord and a Banner would make a good centre unit.

But I suck at Fantasy so everyone please tell me why I'm wrong.

Man this edition will cost me more money for my dwarves more bodies and cannons more money for empire more cannons and orcs lots of bodies and rock lobbas.

RiTides wrote:Is the "gamer's edition" the one that comes with all of the extra stuff (dice, compass-thing, etc?). I thought there was also another "collector's edition" as well... what's the difference?

Oh, I've actually got no friggin clue.)

GW will tell me about the different versions, what I can get for my stores, and let me look at the book I have coming in the mail tomorrow. My poor sales rep still wasn't allowed to talk to me at all about 8th edition today.

I only know that there is something called a "collector's edition" and a "gamers edition" because it says so on the GW website today, but with no info on them. In the past Collectors = Very spiffy rulebook in slipcase that you won't ever take to a gaming table. Gamers edition = HC + SC + carry bag + red templates + ivory looking dice. But for this round, who knows, maybe those wonky looking empirish calipers?

We all find out tomorrow what the different edtions are, and some of us will get to look at the rule book and then post about it. I will be sleeping with mine under my pillow to absorb the game by osmosis.

sonofruss wrote:Man this edition will cost me more money for my dwarves more bodies and cannons more money for empire more cannons and orcs lots of bodies and rock lobbas.

Isn't that the whole bloody point?!

I don't want to buy a crap-ton more models. I just spent a ton of money to revamp my Warriors of Tzeentch army after it got nullified by the change from HoC to WoC. Now I'm looking at needing to do so AGAIN. Not to mention that my Empire army will probably need more artillery, and I don't know what for my Dark Elves, and the kebosh has probably been put into the fledgling VC army I was trying to build.

I'm going to give this a couple oif games to feel it out, but I'm not liking it. Random charge moves, looser movement, so many guys fighting, and fighting in Initiative order (loss of first strike for chargers) all seem to make for a less tactical, more random game - and I haven't even seen the new magic rules yet (still hoping that whole 2d6 PD business in utter nonsense). So far, this doesn't feel like a new edition, it feels like a new game, and not in a good way.

That is my point well almost my point i need to raise my dwarves and my boyz to the empire I have already

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:Hmmm 3 x 10 hammerers?

They're already stubborn with decent toughness and saves.

So go for full static res or an extra 5-10 g-weapon attacks? I'm thinking that in the middle with the Dwarf Lord and a Banner would make a good centre unit.

But I suck at Fantasy so everyone please tell me why I'm wrong.

I'm doing the same with my Bestigors, which are comparable to Hammerers (Gw's, S4, comparable cost, etc) as well as putting my Beastlord and BSB in there to make a good center unit for my army. They won't need to maneuver much since they'll have their flanks covered by Gor Blocks

Sounds like i might have to get my Skaven out of my damn box and actualy build them for once ;p

Cannot WAIT to hear what test games end up playing out like. Please consider this an official begging, folks who have the book:

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE post batreps of your first few 8th ed. games, with illuminations of how the new rules work out.

@Karon: Wouldn't you be terrified of template artillery when fielding an elite horde unit? They might very well change the Strength values of them but right now Empire still has a S3 warmachine and a S5 one, both plonking down big pie plates.

The gravitational pull of WFB is increasing...

After hearing that armies could still take 50% characters (25% Lords and 25% Heroes) I thought 'oh no, its still Herohammer' but everything that has been said seems to indicate that the rules have been balanced away from this in any event.

If GW has managed to pull this off, my wallet could take a serious pounding

Thanks Mad Dok, an awesome post.

I think I'm going to knock 40k on the head until 6th ed or the new CSM book is released and get that Ogre Army I've had my eye on for a couple of years.

OK look to be a wee bit uber now so that's kool.

How many Ogres do you need in a unit for horde???

RiTides wrote:Is the "gamer's edition" the one that comes with all of the extra stuff (dice, compass-thing, etc?). I thought there was also another "collector's edition" as well... what's the difference?

There is, AFAIK, another collectors edition.

It has been said that there is another collector's edition of the rulebook alone, with leather covers or something like that.

radiohazard wrote:Thanks Mad Dok, an awesome post.

I think I'm going to knock 40k on the head until 6th ed or the new CSM book is released and get that Ogre Army I've had my eye on for a couple of years.

OK look to be a wee bit uber now so that's kool.

How many Ogres do you need in a unit for horde???

6 wide. Unfortunately Ironguts will not be hording ;_; (or at least not too well)

..I believe so.

The stuff is now up, technically, on the GW site, now if their poxy site would work all would be well in the world

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat1491876&rootCatGameStyle=

and for the work blocked..

I'll try and add the rest of the pics when their site works.

These two roguish metal characters come from the talented hands of Juan Diaz and Mike Anderson. They work equally well as display models or as part of a dramatic diorama, perhaps featuring them duelling each other. Notice the gunpowder cartridges hanging from the bandolier, or the duellist on the right kissing the blade of his rapier.

This set contains two metal finely-detailed Citadel miniatures. Models supplied with 20mm x 40mm base.

Web exclusive: these models are available exclusively here at games-workshop.com.



Citizens of the Empire - Merchant & ScribeThis rotund merchant and his trusty scribe provide two more characterful, metal models for the Collectors Range courtesy of Mike Anderson. They are the sorts of characters who might be found in the baggage train of an army.

This set contains two finely-detailed metal Citadel miniatures, an Empire Merchant and an Empire Scribe. Models supplied with 20mm square bases.

Web exclusive: these models are available exclusively here at games-workshop.com.


Citizens of the Empire - Regimental MascotMany regiments in the Empire are famous for the totems or mascots that accompany them to battle. The Regimental Mascot is a metal model that incorporates a one-eyed bear carrying a drum and his ugly handler, who carries a basket of half-eaten bones and a hurdy-gurdy - presumably to provide a musical accompaniment for the drum-playing grizzly.

This set contains one metal finely-detailed Citadel miniature. Models supplied with a 20mm x 40mm base.

Web exclusive: these models are available exclusively here at games-workshop.com.

The combat resolution calculator looks so wicked, as do all the counters etc. Great stuff.

Really neat stuff! TOTALLY out of my price range.

Like the new Empire collectors stuff. Do they do anything?

Gah, buggering bumfeth, I just pre-ordered those duellists and the scribe + merchant blisters.

Those templates are awesome looking.

@Reds8n: Can you please upload the big pics of the other stuff as well? I am on a journey and can't do that ATM. Anyway, here are the texts:

Engineer's Ranging Set

The Engineer's Ranging Set contains useful tools to aid any budding engineer with his calculations on the battlefield. For long-range measurements the set includes a large unfolding ruler, which has an impressive range of 4ft. This is perfect for seeing whether your archers are in short range, taking aim with your stone thrower or letting loose with your Fireball. The comet-shaped dividers can be opened up to 18". They are great for moving lots of units short distances at once. The Ranging set is only available while stocks last.

This set contains one set of pre-painted plastic, comet shaped dividers with an 18" range, and a 48" bespoke folding, pre-painted plastic ruler.

Available in strictly limited numbers - order now to avoid disappointment. £18.00

Warhammer Template Set

Looking like they've been taken from an Empire Engineer's workbench, the Warhammer template set contains a pair of ornate templates for use in your games. The flame template is used for all manner of spells, the breath weapons of monstrous creatures and some exotic war machines. The area affected by the flame is defined by the outside of the template. The sun device comprises both a small and large template and even has the central holes for specific targeting. You use the inside of the circle to define the area that has been hit.

This set contains two pre-painted plastic templates, one tear-drop shaped and one round. £5.00

Please note that at least the round template is not printed on clear plastic, but fully sculpted, pre-painted and with holes!

Warhammer Counter Set

There's much that happens in the midst of battle: charges are declared, regiments turn-tail and flee, mighty beasts are wounded, and bloody combats give rise to all manner of complex situations. Luckily, The Warhammer Counter Set is here to help you keep track of it all. The set comprises six comet-shaped, double-sided charge or flee markers, eight double-sided wound and ongoing effect markers, a charge arc indicator, and a combat resolution calculator. This great-looking instrument is an easy way of adding up your combat resolution with an ingenious tally system, and the pictorial references won't let you forget any bonuses.

This set contains the following pre-painted plastic gaming aids: a combat resolution calculator, a charge arc indicator, six double-sided charge/flee markers and eight double-sided wound/ongoing effect markers. £8.00

Warhammer Skull Dice

Sculpted by Aly Morrison specifically for Warhammer, these skull dice will clatter on to the battlefield as if a set of knucklebones taken from the Old World itself.
This set contains eight distinctive dice, ivory effect dice and a carrying pouch.

Available in strictly limited numbers - order now to avoid disappointment. £7.00

Warhammer Battle Magic

This core deck of 56 large-format cards contains all the spells for every magical lore printed in the Warhammer rulebook (including the signature spell and lore attribute). Each full-colour card describes one spell, and all the information you need to use it on the battlefield, including spell type, casting value and range. Not only are the spell cards a great, tactile way of representing magic in your games but on a practical level they make selecting spells easy and speed up play in the heat of battle itself; there is no need to flick through the reference section of the rulebook, just keep the Wizard's spell cards to hand during the Magic phase.

This set contains 56 large-format cards detailing all of the spells printed in the Warhammer rulebook. £6.00

Edit: Let's see if and how long direct pic links work. BTW geat stuff, I need all of it! Good work, GW!

..still some issues with the site..some countries worse than others...almost a tradition I guess.

And delivering on their promise, Maelstrom is having a specific Warhammer-only pre-order sale for 15% off the new Warhammer Items (Code: WARHAMMER-EIGHT).

mikhaila wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:The more I get "confirmed" about 8th, the more certain I am that I'm going to be giving up the game entirely.

You want me to put a book aside for you, or the spiffy gamers edition?

I'm sadly not kidding. I'm not buying a single thing for WHFB or 8th until I at least play some games. And I'll have to either proxy or borrow someone's stuff since even the Dwarf army I was building is basically obsolete and needs to be completely redone.

My DE, Demons, and Ogres are essentially unplayable. They're legal armies probably, but they're pretty much completely terrible for 8th in their current configurations.

Something similar happened in 40k when 5th came out, and I basically gave up. Now, I'm basically going back to playing more Warmachine.

Demons were unplayable in 7th and Ogres are getting a big boost with the new edition, making them playable again as well.

Dark Elves and Demons are still going to be really strong. Everything that helps infantry makes Demon core better, they have a lot of models with high initiative, access to full college lores, the new skirmisher rules were made for Flamers, Keepers just got re-reollable attacks against 99% of the game, etc. Only thing that really got screwed is plaguebearers with regen (since you can't get both ward and regen) and the stronger shooting phase for other armies makes it easier to take them out from afar.

Dark Elves don't sound like they lost anything so I'm curious what kind of army you are running in 7th that is unplayable in 8th. Blackguard are better (don't need to bother with asf banner anymore), all their ranked infantry is still solid, their shooting is going to be even more ridiculous and even their magic is crazy with a combo of power of darkness to get more power dice then combo that with the new College Lores.

I still think Ogres are screwed until they get a new book but I guess we'll see about that soon. MSU ogres is now unplayable, I don't think that their megablocks are going to be able to make up their points or capture objectives as easily and almost everything they fight is going to be stubborn but that's just my predictions.

Anyone know if the collectors edition actually has more content in it?

No i don't believe so, just prettier pages and a sick cover. Really tempted to pre-order it..

I don't do WHFB, but I still think the new stuff looks pretty awesome if only they put that much effort into 40k, all we got was a brown satchel when Apoc came out.

One thing I don't really like is the bear model. I don't know why, but I just don't like it. It just looks a bit too cruel.

To be fair 40k gets most of the attention pretty much all the time except for Fantasy edition releases.

Wow, that's actually the first "Gamer's Edition" I could care less about. I'm not a fan of the bag and there's nothing that's unique or an early release in it like the last Fantasy one.

Nothing unique? What about the combat resolution plasti-gold counter thingy that I don't understand?

I like the magic cards, but everything else looks really stupid. The dice look really unbalanced but maybe they accounted for that.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Nothing unique? What about the combat resolution plasti-gold counter thingy that I don't understand?

Its basically just a calculator. You use it to keep tally of how many combat points each side has in a combat, instead of having to use fingers or dice. I think its a nice little tool actually.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2lGQfeEJT8

H.B.M.C. wrote:Nothing unique? What about the combat resolution plasti-gold counter thingy that I don't understand?

Which is available with the counter set separately, and doesn't have the silly "While Stocks Last" sticker, so not LE(which means I can get it later). I meant there's nothing unique to the set by itself aside from the bag, like the Red Templates and bone colored dice of 7th's set(and IT's Bag, which I still use).

There's a Youtube video on the new gaming aids, if you're wanting to see them "in situ".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2lGQfeEJT8

I kinda like the sling-pack thingy. It has a Civil War bedroll look to it.

ZF-

The whole "buckets of dice"/"Horde" thing sounds rather goofy.

Add in some "exploding 6's" and you've got Confragnarok all over again.

Still, I do love WFB, so I'll give it a whirl BUT I will definitely be Trying Before Buying at those rulebook prices!

Woah those tools are ALOT larger than I imagined! Especially that ruler, maybe worth getting?

Agamemnon2 wrote:There's a Youtube video on the new gaming aids, if you're wanting to see them "in situ".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2lGQfeEJT8

I wish they would've talked instead of played DRAMATIC FIGHTING MUSIC! Especially with the Combat Res Calculator to explain the images.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:The more I get "confirmed" about 8th, the more certain I am that I'm going to be giving up the game entirely.

You want me to put a book aside for you, or the spiffy gamers edition?

I'm sadly not kidding. I'm not buying a single thing for WHFB or 8th until I at least play some games. And I'll have to either proxy or borrow someone's stuff since even the Dwarf army I was building is basically obsolete and needs to be completely redone.

My DE, Demons, and Ogres are essentially unplayable. They're legal armies probably, but they're pretty much completely terrible for 8th in their current configurations.

Something similar happened in 40k when 5th came out, and I basically gave up. Now, I'm basically going back to playing more Warmachine.

Or you can grab Ed and the rest of the guys and come over for the next 'Late Night Friday', borrow a bunch of the ogres, dwarves, or demons from the case, and play a game using my store copy that I get today.) I'm in the same boat. I need to rework ogres a bit, although having 6k of them makes it not too tough, but may need more gnoblars. Go, go 100+ stubburn gnoblars on the flanks! Orcs I think I want to make my 8th edition army, and since it was my 2nd-4th edition army, it needs work. Throg I have no clue on, but I was running units of 10 trolls before, so he may be good.) And my dwarves are a loose collection of 2nd-3rd edition figures that need to go back for some training. Lots of models, who knows how they work.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:

sonofruss wrote:Man this edition will cost me more money for my dwarves more bodies and cannons more money for empire more cannons and orcs lots of bodies and rock lobbas.

Isn't that the whole bloody point?!

I don't want to buy a crap-ton more models. I just spent a ton of money to revamp my Warriors of Tzeentch army after it got nullified by the change from HoC to WoC. Now I'm looking at needing to do so AGAIN. Not to mention that my Empire army will probably need more artillery, and I don't know what for my Dark Elves, and the kebosh has probably been put into the fledgling VC army I was trying to build.

I'm going to give this a couple oif games to feel it out, but I'm not liking it. Random charge moves, looser movement, so many guys fighting, and fighting in Initiative order (loss of first strike for chargers) all seem to make for a less tactical, more random game - and I haven't even seen the new magic rules yet (still hoping that whole 2d6 PD business in utter nonsense). So far, this doesn't feel like a new edition, it feels like a new game, and not in a good way.

Amen. Sure, War of the Ring is a fun game, but it's not Warhammer, and I hate the "it works for this game so we'll just put it in all our games" mentality that GW seems to be suffering from. Just because 40k is a popular game doesn't mean that it's rules need to go over into Fantasy. Ditto with War of the Ring. I started playing in 4th edition, when it really was Herohammer, but even then movement was the key phase. The glory of Warhammer's previous incarnations, especially it's highpoint in 6th edition, was that you minimized the importance of dice rolls. Sure, they could still make or break a game, but a solid player was a solid player and 9 times out of 10 the better player would win. Now it seems like there's very little focus on generalship (i.e. knowing how far your troops can charge by eyeballing the table, guessing range for your war machines, etc...) and a great deal more focus on getting a good dice roll. This makes it easier for brand new players to win games, which will of course increase the number of 14-year-olds getting into the game, and the focus on ridiculoulsy large infantry units means that, finally, the person who spends the most money can really be the person who wins the most games.
So yeah, from what I've seen (of course I haven't playtested it yet) I very well may be pulling out the old brown 6th edition book and returning to what I consider the glory days of Warhammer.

I just did the math. Everything that comes with the Gamers Edition, except the bag, comes to $107.25 meaning the bag costs $16.50. I would just prefer to get the products individually, for about $30 more than the Gamer edition I can get the measuring tools and the the magic cards.

People whine the system needs revamping, the system gets revamped and the people whine. WHEN WILL IT END?!?!!?

The dividers seem like a nifty idea.

I demand that bear with the drums. DEMAND HIM!

EDIT: I'll remove the online bitch-fest I just typed up and wait.

TheFirstBorn wrote:People whine the system needs revamping, the system gets revamped and the people whine. WHEN WILL IT END?!?!!?

Actually, most of the bitching is about the army books, not the ruleset.

mikhaila wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:The more I get "confirmed" about 8th, the more certain I am that I'm going to be giving up the game entirely.

You want me to put a book aside for you, or the spiffy gamers edition?

I'm sadly not kidding. I'm not buying a single thing for WHFB or 8th until I at least play some games. And I'll have to either proxy or borrow someone's stuff since even the Dwarf army I was building is basically obsolete and needs to be completely redone.

My DE, Demons, and Ogres are essentially unplayable. They're legal armies probably, but they're pretty much completely terrible for 8th in their current configurations.

Something similar happened in 40k when 5th came out, and I basically gave up. Now, I'm basically going back to playing more Warmachine.

Or you can grab Ed and the rest of the guys and come over for the next 'Late Night Friday', borrow a bunch of the ogres, dwarves, or demons from the case, and play a game using my store copy that I get today.) I'm in the same boat. I need to rework ogres a bit, although having 6k of them makes it not too tough, but may need more gnoblars. Go, go 100+ stubburn gnoblars on the flanks! Orcs I think I want to make my 8th edition army, and since it was my 2nd-4th edition army, it needs work. Throg I have no clue on, but I was running units of 10 trolls before, so he may be good.) And my dwarves are a loose collection of 2nd-3rd edition figures that need to go back for some training. Lots of models, who knows how they work.

Let me know when that next Friday is. I'm willing to try the game out.

The idea that I can field Dwarfs and not have it be MASSIVELY boring while at the same time still retain a semblance of being a good army is enticing - although the idea of having to buy/build/paint that many new models is very upsetting.

I just compare/contrast this to how WM/Hordes went from MK1 -> MK2 and nothing went from GREAT -> SUCK, and my army + configurations were still quite very valid and decent in MK2 shows a massive difference between the two games. If anything I had models boosted up to decent/good status, and the things that got toned down are reasonable now, rather than terrible.

Plus the whole "you don't have to paint your army to play in tournaments" thing helps a ton too.

Magic cards, counters and the rulebook all seem pretty cool.. Not sure about spending 30$ on a fancy tape measurer tho..
As for the models, the empire stuff looks great too bad I cant get a lizardman mascot :(

Cyporiean wrote:

TheFirstBorn wrote:People whine the system needs revamping, the system gets revamped and the people whine. WHEN WILL IT END?!?!!?

Actually, most of the bitching is about the army books, not the ruleset.

Obviously there's nothing different

It is interesting how people find complaining about armies that are powerful due to absolutely broken statlines and / or special rules to be the exact same as complaining about a new edition that has been lauded many times by GW staff as "Not the same Fantasy you're familiar with". It's like expecting someone to be going "Oooh, nifty" when the complaint about a broken weapon in a FPS leads to the next installment being a slots game.

Minsc wrote:

Cyporiean wrote:

TheFirstBorn wrote:People whine the system needs revamping, the system gets revamped and the people whine. WHEN WILL IT END?!?!!?

Actually, most of the bitching is about the army books, not the ruleset.

Obviously there's nothing different

It is interesting how people find complaining about armies that are powerful due to absolutely broken statlines and / or special rules to be the exact same as complaining about a new edition that has been lauded many times by GW staff as "Not the same Fantasy you're familiar with". It's like expecting someone to be going "Oooh, nifty" when the complaint about a broken weapon in a FPS leads to the next installment being a slots game.

Complaining about broken armies has nothing to do what I stated, most of the complaining I have personally seen is that how the rules are being completely changed etc.. When months ago i saw posts about how 7th needs re-doing.

I just wish it wasn't such a blatant attempt to move massive amounts of merchandise. Focus on good rules and the players will follow.

BTW, any word on skirmisher rules?

I had a look at the book this lunch time and was pretty impressed. Nice quality and it sure is big. I am really impressed that they kept it to £45 for just the book. I'm not fussed about the bits and pieces as I expect I am going to get the boxed set and that will have either the same bits or similar ones and I'm not a fan of the Empire. I was also told that after the first magic cards Skaven will be one of the sets up next. I like the idea of magic cards, but then I am kind of old school with my Warhammer. I will wait and see what kind of games are possible on the smaller scale as I'm not one for the apocalyptic games.

And how do you know the rules aren't good? This is what annoys me, whining when people have no reason to whine. Can you not wait to see the rulebook in person, then spread your doom and gloom?

I think like most folks it's the massive increase in the size of our armies that will piss off most people.

Tons of units and armies went from AWESOME to SUCK and even WORTHLESS status.

I have 3 complete armies and one that is in pieces that was to be assembled. Each of them require completely new purchases to be "decent" given the new rules.

The massive and sudden change that requires a lot of time and money to adapt to in order to continue to play the game, especially at tournaments that we've been going to for years, probably isn't going to be that great.

I don't have a problem with the new edition, I play orcs & gobbos. They are actually decent now.

Wow everything looks great. Definitely interested in the collector book, since I'll be getting the new box set too and I'll use the mini rulebook to travel for games.

the counters and templates all look awesome. I kinda wish they would have done a package deal with the collector book included too, don't really need the bag though, but it's cool in a nerdy kinda way

Opinions/Advance order

Measuring set is cool but quite expensive. For the first time in a long time, if ever, I'll probably give that type of cool, limited release item a miss.

The dice are must have. Most gamers, me included, have way more dice than they need but cool sets like that are compulsory and the price is not too bad.

The Gamer's Edition this time, unlike last time, does not include the mini-rule book and the satchel is not nearly as practical as the one in the last Gamer's Edition. I'll skip it this time and look at buying the items I want individually.

The rule book, while bloated and very expensive, does seem like a lot of fun to read and I am seriously considering getting it.

So anyone that has seen the BIG book what's the extra pages for? Scenarios are there but what about the other 150 pages?

Anyone notice that the scenario posted is kill points with a couple bonuses for objectives?

Edit - Also, clipping is now impossible and sliding is enforced...At least for the charge.

BrassScorpion wrote:

Opinions/Advance order

Measuring set is cool but quite expensive. For the first time in a long time, if ever, I'll probably give that type of cool, limited release item a miss.

The dice are must have. Most gamers, me included, have way more dice than they need but cool sets like that are compulsory and the price is not too bad.

The Gamer's Edition this time, unlike last time, does not include the mini-rule book and the satchel is not nearly as practical as the one in the last Gamer's Edition. I'll skip it this time and look at buying the items I want individually.

The rule book, while bloated and very expensive, does seem like a lot of fun to read and I am seriously considering getting it.

If you were to buy everything separately it would be $23.40 more than the gamers edition and it would come with the cards and the measuring tools. Not too bad imo.

I just noticed, the dice set doesn't seem to have scatter/missfire dice :(

I'm going to give the game a go, but I feel pretty much the same way Voodoo does when I compare this edition change to Warmachine and Hordes. That said, for silly heroic fantasy with lots of dudes, you can't really beat WFB, so I'm only selling half my armies. Orcs and Dwarves get to stay.

I had plans to purchase Gamer's Edition, but now that Advance Order is up, I am not that sure anymore. I don't feel like paying 13 euros for a useless sack and I can buy counters and templates separately later if I wish. The only reason I am still undecided is that purchasing Gamer's Edition gives a shot at winning free 3000pts army.

I think I'll just buy the Rulebook, Skull Dice, Battle Magic Deck and Empire Citizen figures (as Empire is my main army). Counter set and Templates can be bought separately later and Engineer's gadgets don't seem like worth buying either way, limited or not.

this thread needs more cheese to go with all of the whine in it.

The thread needs to stop confusing constructive criticism with 'whining'.

I know i cant buy the gamer edition (i might have to settle for the starter set because then i can convince my dad to buy it) but I WANT THAT BAG! it looks pretty AWESOME!

Well after trying to order online...and it crashing...I called GW and ordered. Seems a million (or less) people are ordering from site and its a feeding frenzy on the server.

I wussed out and just bought the engineer range finder set. I figured the store copy we got is good enough until they release a starter box. The GW rep started to say when that it was coming out soon but stuttered and said we have no idea when its coming.

Btw, no whining from me, I will take whatever the rules throw at me and roll with it, like I have every edition. The rules Ive read so far are quite okay with me. I will not quit, I will not switch to warmachine...nuh uh. Not me.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The thread needs to stop confusing constructive criticism with 'whining'.

yeah, youre right... listening to umpteen posts about quitting and switching to warmachine is constructive.

The whole "GW invalidates my army every edition/army book, I'm going to play Warmachine" argument is a pretty compelling one. I think it ignores a few facts, namely that warmachine was a half dozen factions to WFBs 16, or that each faction has far fewer options within it.

To build a "complete", say, cygnar army, you're looking at a ton of money, but no where what it would take to build a "complete" Empire army, with complete being able to field every unit in the amount worth fielding. Warmachine is still skirmish based, and having 12 each of 6 different infantry isn't that hard.

The turnover also keeps the game fresh. Yes, you'll need to keep buying in, modelling, and painting. If not, than Warhammer becomes legacy gaming, where you fight the same battles with the same armies. It's also been my understanding that Warmachine has more constant updates, meaning that you'll be spending money more often to keep an army updated and fresh.

I'm excited about 8th. I have an empire army, i'm building a mantic high elf force, and I want to give WFB one honest shot.

BTW, if you want to buy into a game where stuff stays constant, take a look at Flames of War. If you pick a really generic company like British Infantry or American Armored Rifles you can run the same models in dozens of lists in multiple theaters and time periods.

I'm not a fan of skulls, so no counters, range set or dice for me.

I'll definitely be ordering the rulebook and magic cards, though! Mmm, mmm, good

I also will probably get to try a demo game of 8th ed tonight, I'll post up more then!

RiTides wrote:I'm not a fan of skulls, so no counters, range set or dice for me.

So where do you keep your wits?

Polonius wrote:The whole "GW invalidates my army every edition/army book, I'm going to play Warmachine" argument is a pretty compelling one. I think it ignores a few facts, namely that warmachine was a half dozen factions to WFBs 16, or that each faction has far fewer options within it.

To build a "complete", say, cygnar army, you're looking at a ton of money, but no where what it would take to build a "complete" Empire army, with complete being able to field every unit in the amount worth fielding. Warmachine is still skirmish based, and having 12 each of 6 different infantry isn't that hard.

The turnover also keeps the game fresh. Yes, you'll need to keep buying in, modelling, and painting. If not, than Warhammer becomes legacy gaming, where you fight the same battles with the same armies. It's also been my understanding that Warmachine has more constant updates, meaning that you'll be spending money more often to keep an army updated and fresh.

I'm excited about 8th. I have an empire army, i'm building a mantic high elf force, and I want to give WFB one honest shot.

BTW, if you want to buy into a game where stuff stays constant, take a look at Flames of War. If you pick a really generic company like British Infantry or American Armored Rifles you can run the same models in dozens of lists in multiple theaters and time periods.

Not to drag this off topic, but I think you're misunderstanding some things here. I fully accept that Warmachine and Warhammer are different things, my preference is just for Warmachine at the moment. I understand that a lot of people get a kick out of rejigging everything with a new edition, that's valid and it's a lot of why GW's model is so successful. I don't think we're ignoring facts at all, just expressing a preference. There's a difference between saying "I'd prefer to play Warmachine because of X, Y and Z" and saying "Warhammer sucks because of X, Y and Z". By the way, Warmachine and Hordes have at current count 10 Factions (Cygnar, Khador, Menoth, Cryx, Retribution, Mercs, Trollbloods, Circle, Legion, Skorne) and are adding an eleventh (Minions) soon. Options are a lot more diverse than you are implying too, especially given that each faction tends to have at many varied builds that can all be equally successful. That's not bad given their generally simultaneous release schedule and fairly tight game balance.

All of that said, WFB is still king of the big scale battle in Fantasy land as far as I'm concerned, and I'll probably get the rulebook. I don't expect to dedicate as much time as I used to to it though.

Are the templates the same size? It's early morning out here on the Left Coast, so the local game shop won't be open for a few hours.
Not too thrilled about DiceHammer, but I'll give it a whirl. If I have to play another game to get my maneuver fix in I'll fall back on LaSalle, not Warmachine ("Written by power gamers for power gamers").

usernamesareannoying wrote:yeah, youre right... listening to umpteen posts about quitting and switching to warmachine is constructive.

Because whining about whining is so much more constructive than that.

But you want something constructive? Fine.


GW's rampant and utterly unnecessary levels of secrecy have left virtually every Fantasy player in a strange limbo state where they haven't the faintest idea (beyond rumours) how the new game is even going to function, how broken or unbalanced their armies are about to become, or even if their recent purchases will remain valid come the rules. We're facing the biggest shake-up of a GW core game since 2nd Ed 40K to 3rd, and GW are giving nothing away about how the game works. That's a big 'fail' in my books, and it would be far more effective for GW to use their fething website as something more than a bloated hellish shopping cart and provide previews of each section of the game and how the rules interact. Take Fantasy Flight Games as an example of this. For months they've been doing weekly (or close-to-weekly) designer diaries on their upcoming Deathwatch RPG. They haven't given away the rules, or too many specific details, but they've outlined the major areas involved (player classes/careers/chapters), along with examples of many of the core game play mechanics. Why hasn't or why won't GW do this?

I've yet to decide what I am going to pick up besides magic cards, and the core book. I think the dice look tits. Maybe I'll make them Skulltaker's personal dice.

Da Boss wrote:
Not to drag this off topic, but I think you're misunderstanding some things here. I fully accept that Warmachine and Warhammer are different things, my preference is just for Warmachine at the moment. I understand that a lot of people get a kick out of rejigging everything with a new edition, that's valid and it's a lot of why GW's model is so successful. I don't think we're ignoring facts at all, just expressing a preference. There's a difference between saying "I'd prefer to play Warmachine because of X, Y and Z" and saying "Warhammer sucks because of X, Y and Z". By the way, Warmachine and Hordes have at current count 10 Factions (Cygnar, Khador, Menoth, Cryx, Retribution, Mercs, Trollbloods, Circle, Legion, Skorne) and are adding an eleventh (Minions) soon. Options are a lot more diverse than you are implying too, especially given that each faction tends to have at many varied builds that can all be equally successful. That's not bad given their generally simultaneous release schedule and fairly tight game balance.

All of that said, WFB is still king of the big scale battle in Fantasy land as far as I'm concerned, and I'll probably get the rulebook. I don't expect to dedicate as much time as I used to to it though.

I'm not dogging people's preference. I think that Warmachine is far better at what it does (competitive skirmish scale gaming) than WFB is at what it does (Fantasy wargaming). it's a better game by a better company, which is why I find some of the ways people compare the two maddening.

It's a weakness of mine in general though. I tend to give people a hard time for the stated reasons they give for an action, when there is usually an underlying reason that's much more compelling.

In many ways, Voodoo boys and I are in the same boat. I'm excited about 8th because I already have an empire army built and painted. It will be cheaper for me to update it to 8th than to build a Warmachine army from the ground up. (The cost of Warmachine is sneaky huge, btw. All metal, suprisingly large armies, good cavalry and infantry all add up to a pretty pricey game. The secondary market for WFB is pretty big too, ensuring some great deals that you can't find on WM.)

@HBMC - agreed.

After reading the rule book today I can say it's a breath of life to the game. I love it.

Most of the stuff people were afraid of didn't even pan out. For example movement. Wheeling still exists, the rules are simply a bit more streamlined.

Magic seems quite strong (power of darkness generating dice and death magic wounds replenishing dice) although balanced by many factors including that if you fail any spell the same wizard can't cast any further spells that turn, having to roll every spell (instead of the rumour that everyone gets to pick), only one wizard per army being able to have the same spell, miscasts being deadly, etc. Dispel scrolls and their equivalents have been boosted to cost 35 points.

Monsters seem like they're going to inflict a ton of casualties but are balanced by the fact that the enemy unit will be able to strike back with nearly every model (normally everyone attacks with 2 ranks, units 10 wide with 3 ranks, and spears in an additional rank, and High Elf spearmen with a further additional rank. So a 10 wide 50man High Elf Spearman unit attacks with every single model), and even S2 can wound T8, and the defending infantry unit will most likely be stubborn throughout the whole combat. Armour penetration is the same as before and every armor save is modified by strength, so no changes on the part (unlike rumoured).

25% cap on lords means that 2000 point games won't see any single lord choice worth more than 500 points meaning Dragon lords and Greater Daemons are out of that points value. On the other hand it also means you can get a cheapo lord into smaller games, even 1000 point games, to boost your army's leadership for example.

I wasn't able to figure out the optimal magic system in one browse of the book. Level 4 wizards don't generate any more dice than level 1 wizards. They only get +4 to cast and 4 spells instead of 1 spell and +1 to cast. The +2 casting dice VC bloodline seems a bit insane in the new system, so we'll see what the PDFs will actually say. The hard cap of 12 pool dice puts a limit on the magic, although I believe it's only a cap on the total dice and you can generate more during the phase via spells after you've used some.

It will be interesting.

Therion wrote:On the other hand it also means you can get a cheapo lord into smaller games, even 1000 point games, to boost your army's leadership for example.

This. Skaven remain my favorite when I consider that most lists(barring the absolutely most extreme lists abusing the HPA teamed with a Bell and multiple Furnaces and the like) won't have to change for Skaven and that we can still bring half of our Lord choices at 1K(only Skrolk, Thanquol, Ikit Claw, and the Vermin Lord are over 250). Note, I'm not saying it's a smart move outside of the Warlord(cheap little bastiche he is), just saying it's a possibility.

Those templates, rulers and dice look pretty damn cool - too bad they are not metal (the templates) as I can imagine the plastic ones will feel a bit... off.

If I had lots of money I might get a set

The new WHFB cover looks fairly stupid though, I have to say.

Just preordered a Gamer's Edition (I'm a sucka for a £10 bag) an extra dice set and the spell cards.

Can't wait to read it myself.

Therion wrote:having to roll every spell (instead of the rumour that everyone gets to pick),

I fail to see how this is a breath of fresh life: We do that now.

Therion wrote:only one wizard per army being able to have the same spell,

Mixed on this, as it better apply only to Rulebook Lores. For other armies, this would be evil: There's no reason to ever take more than six levels in single-lore choice armies, and often times you'll only take four. On the other hand, it means we aren't going to see four large blast template Purple Sun spells going off in a single turn to make a gigantic vortex of "feth YOU!"

It is a very odd rule to put in, however, as GW is pushing for larger games: Wouldn't this eventually bite you in the ass at some point because you can't take any more spells? For example, O&G - no matter the point size - now have no incentive to take more than 12 casting levels, assuming the "No Duplicates" applies to them. Now, while not too bad in 2K-3K point games (and likely will never even be brought up), in 6K+ point games it's pretty much saying "Here, you have no reason to take more than two lords and two hero wizards".

Therion wrote:miscasts being deadly,

One: Aren't they already? Two: O&G player who also has OK player friends: Feel our pain. Three: Who can't wait for OK & O&G to get even harsher miscast tables?

Therion wrote:etc. Dispel scrolls and their equivalents have been boosted to cost 35 points.

This is going to be negligible for some time, however: Unless FAQ'd, Army Book > Rulebook for prices. This will only handicap the first few armies to be redone (as well as the lack of a Staff of Sorcery) and not the system as a whole. Heck, if following the 40K / current Fantasy set, some armies will probably never lose either the Staff of Sorcery or 25pt DD's by the time 9th Edition rolls around (Skaven seem the most likely to keep each for some time).

Therion wrote:Monsters seem like they're going to inflict a ton of casualties but are balanced by the fact that the enemy unit will be able to strike back with nearly every model (normally everyone attacks with 2 ranks, units 10 wide with 3 ranks, and spears in an additional rank, and High Elf spearmen with a further additional rank. So a 10 wide 50man High Elf Spearman unit attacks with every single model),

Or, if handled by someone who realizes the folly in presenting a 7-wide 25mm / 8-wide 20mm front against such a unit, countered by going 5-6 wide for anywhere between 5 and 15 attacks lost by the Elves.

Going to ignore the "More Ranks = Stubborn" thing, as most often Monsters are moved to hit someone in the flank anyways.

Therion wrote:and even S2 can wound T8,

Mixed about this as I'm often a fan of "lucky strikes" and the like, but also upset because I can recall very few / no T8 models. Furthermore, it gives very little incentive to further increase toughness beyond a certain point: Someone's still going to wound you.

Therion wrote:25% cap on lords means that 2000 point games won't see any single lord choice worth more than 500 points meaning Dragon lords and Greater Daemons are out of that points value.

Funnily enough, I can still fit an Orc Warboss on a Wyvern in 500pts. More funnily enough, it's still marginally useful barring certain scenarios.

Therion wrote:On the other hand it also means you can get a cheapo lord into smaller games, even 1000 point games, to boost your army's leadership for example.

Gorbad or Grimgor leading a 1500pt O&G list. If there are no character slots, many armies are going to cram as many characters as they can into a unit. Skaven could technically benefit greatly from this: 15pt characters = first two ranks of a unit are Engineers. Enemy must specifically allocate all attacks before rolling to hit, and can never cause more than two wounds per model in your front rank. 75pts means that you can technically have a unit that - for the first combat round of the game - is only ever going to suffer 10 wounds: 8 Iron Guts charging w/ impact hits, 24 S6 GW's, and so on can only get 10 wounds. It's a cheesy tactic, but it works to negate damage.

Therion wrote:Level 4 wizards don't generate any more dice than level 1 wizards. They only get +4 to cast and 4 spells instead of 1 spell and +1 to cast. The +2 casting dice VC bloodline seems a bit insane in the new system, so we'll see what the PDFs will actually say. The hard cap of 12 pool dice puts a limit on the magic, although I believe it's only a cap on the total dice and you can generate more during the phase via spells after you've used some.

Right now, Level 2's look like the best bang / buck for me. You spam them as they're often just at / under 100pts for armies that aren't either big models (Ogres) or regarded as Elites (Chaos Sorcerers / Daemons). Large numbers of them gives more potential channelers, more people to use spells in case of miscast, and greater fail-to-cast protection (All six spells from a lore in three wizards instead of four spells in a single and two in a final means that if any one wizard fails there's only two spells lost that turn).

Therion wrote:It will be interesting.

I won't deny it will be interesting. I will deny that, so far, I will enjoy it.

Only plus side I can find for Orcs & Goblins is, well, very easy to pimp out and be a cheesy git. Already covered the magic equipment that almost always gives me at least a parity in DD (6,6 nets me only one less, 6,5 a parity, pretty much any other combination at least one more DD than the enemy), 30pt Night Goblin bosses means easy exploitation of Warlock Engineer tactic but with a few extra attacks (and, very likely, S6 Great Weapons to boot), Gorbad gives a super cheesy Leadership Center to an army that'll be nigh-unbreakable now (All units within 18" should be - unless you write the list wrong - Stubborn Ld 10 w/ Re-rolls), and so on. Yes, it doesn't play at all like the Edition is supposed to be done (You're supposed to have less parity / abuse of DD, Goblins should be cowardly, O&G should try killing units instead of being bought in hundreds simply to die by the dozen tying up enemy units, etcetera), but it works.

At least, until next army book wherein Goblin Heroes are likely bumped up into the 50's, Gorbad probably goes poof or down to Ld9, the "+4 DD & -1 Enemy PD" trick goes away, and so on.

His Master's Voice wrote:

RiTides wrote:I'm not a fan of skulls, so no counters, range set or dice for me.

So where do you keep your wits?

Why in a handy jar, of course!

Ammendment: I'm not a fan of skulls other than my own (or, if you prefer, exposed, empty-socket skulls plastered all over my toy-soldier-game-accessories )

Minsc wrote:

Going to ignore the "More Ranks = Stubborn" thing, as most often Monsters are moved to hit someone in the flank anyways.

Took a look at the book today and you remain stubborn even if hit in the ranks. Something about "though disoriented, you still realize you outnumber them"

I can just see the look on my i enemy's face when 20 goblin archers shoot and kill his cannon ( I assume 4 out of 6 shots still hit the machine)! And dwarf players were getting all excited about this edition.

Quick question if i may ... I heard there was to be a change to Frenzy? (also any change to hate?) As a beastmen player it would be nice to know.

Killjoy00 wrote:

Minsc wrote:

Going to ignore the "More Ranks = Stubborn" thing, as most often Monsters are moved to hit someone in the flank anyways.

Took a look at the book today and you remain stubborn even if hit in the ranks. Something about "though disoriented, you still realize you outnumber them"

Oh, joy. That leaves Monsters stuck with combi-charges. Guess it makes sense that a hundred Skaven might mob a Giant, but it also seems odd that fifteen Swordsmen will see a Hellpit Abomination and go "It's not too tough."

..you all saw this yes..

**Win a Warhammer Army Competition
Forget what we said yesterday (you don't need to purchase anything to enter) - to be in with a chance to win a free, 3000 point Warhammer army of your choice, all you need to do is answer the following question:

What is the name of the forest inhabited by the Wood Elves?

And send your answer to:

competition@games-workshop.co.uk

We'll announce the first winner on the 18th of June and you've got until the 8th July to enter, and remember: one particularly lucky winner will also receive a signed copy of the Warhammer Collectors' Edition! You'll find the full terms and conditions for the competition here.

Minsc wrote: For other armies, this would be evil: There's no reason to ever take more than six levels in single-lore choice armies, and often times you'll only take four.

Well, evil to those armies limited to a single lore total, but most armies can have casters that choose between 2-3 lores(Or different caster choices with different lores).

A pet bear? Awesome!

Oh, wait. GW direct only?

Nevermind.
____



Nice. I wonder how much effort it would be to have these properly resculpted and cast in brass...
____



Oh, boy, more red-brown blobby crap... Why can't GW hire somebody with actual artistic skills and talent???

reds8n wrote:..you all saw this yes..

Where does it say that? The only version I've seen says you have to pre-order stuff :(

Do you have a direct link?

Edit: I just saw it hidden at the bottom of their newest post, never mind

Tri wrote:Quick question if i may ... I heard there was to be a change to Frenzy? (also any change to hate?) As a beastmen player it would be nice to know.

You can take a Ld test to restrain from charging. I think it was mostly all the same.

Although "Extra Attack" is now a special rule for some stupid reason. A ton of the rules are in the special rules, including fast cav and skirmish.


A couple of things I hadn't seen mentioned. Flying cavalry have all the rules for fast cavalry now. Instead of unit strength, there are unit types, like in 40k, each with a set of special abilities. That's the only "errata" in the main book - every army has a bestiary list that includes the unit type for all their units.

Also, I don't know if this was mentioned, but there is no 3d6 + movement for charging. It's 3d6, lose lowest + movement if you have a special rule. That special rule (something-stride) is given to all cavalry and beasts and fliers. Fliers only move and charge though, so they are charging 10 + highest 2 of 3d6.

reds8n wrote:..you all saw this yes..

**Win a Warhammer Army Competition
Forget what we said yesterday (you don't need to purchase anything to enter) - to be in with a chance to win a free, 3000 point Warhammer army of your choice, all you need to do is answer the following question:

What is the name of the forest inhabited by the Wood Elves?

And send your answer to:

competition@games-workshop.co.uk

We'll announce the first winner on the 18th of June and you've got until the 8th July to enter, and remember: one particularly lucky winner will also receive a signed copy of the Warhammer Collectors' Edition! You'll find the full terms and conditions for the competition here.

Do you mean 18th of July not June?

As for the book don`t think it`ll be a buy for me. I`ll wait for Mantic rules

Read this in multiple places (this thread being one of them):

As long as you have more ranks than your opponent, you're stubborn.

So it doesn't matter if the Dragon/Monster/Cav actually Flanks an infantry unit - they may lose their Rank bonus, but they stay Stubborn.

Also: Stubborn units can use either their LD or the LD of the General.

I'm not seeing the reason to take anything other than Infantry, Magic, and Missile troops in 8th.

Maybe some diverting units, but that's going to be about it.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Read this in multiple places (this thread being one of them):

As long as you have more ranks than your opponent, you're stubborn.

So it doesn't matter if the Dragon/Monster/Cav actually Flanks an infantry unit - they may lose their Rank bonus, but they stay Stubborn.

Also: Stubborn units can use either their LD or the LD of the General.

I'm not seeing the reason to take anything other than Infantry, Magic, and Missile troops in 8th.

Maybe some diverting units, but that's going to be about it.

Just to be clear, you have to have 1 extra rank yourself to deny ranks. So dragons and monsters and chariots (and most cavalry) will not be denying ranks any longer.


I still think there will be a reason to take those units though. To be fair, they won't be used like they are now, where they can hold (or roll) an entire flank by themselves. But they are great for support. I think active combat res will matter more, so a chariot in the flank can sway the balance between two large blocks. We'll see.

I'm not seeing the reason to take anything other than Infantry, Magic, and Missile troops in 8th.

Maybe some diverting units, but that's going to be about it.

Infantry, magic and missile troops, and two Hydras and some heroes/assassins to cause actual combat casualties with.

Therion wrote:

I'm not seeing the reason to take anything other than Infantry, Magic, and Missile troops in 8th.

Maybe some diverting units, but that's going to be about it.

Infantry, magic and missile troops, and two Hydras and some heroes/assassins to cause actual combat casualties with.

Don't forget that your infantry units need to be bigger than the enemy's. Otherwise, unless you're getting lots of kills, you're not breaking the enemy.

I'm looking at 50-60 big NG units 5-6 wide and 10 deep within range of a General. Sure, they never kill ANYTHING, but at Ld. 10 Stubborn Re-Roll until they likely lose at least 30 wounds, that's a unit that's tying the enemy up for some time.

Yea, for over 200 points. I don't think it's going to be that big a deal. A similarly costed Black Guard unit will kill 10 a turn. Sure it'll take them a while to grind through, but you could accomplish the same thing right now with big block of flagellants and I don't see those being game breaking.

Before O&G couldn't really tarpit anything. I like the fact that 60 NGs can hold up elite units and die in the process. Makes sense.. they are fine until they don't have enough guys out supporting them in the giant mass then they freak out.

TheFirstBorn wrote:No i don't believe so, just prettier pages and a sick cover. Really tempted to pre-order it..

I already did. Figured the book was going to get a hellish amount of use and needed one that wouldn't fall apart. Oh and looked pretty too hahahaha.

Went into my local GW this evening to have a look at the new book, came out having pre-ordered the Collector's Edition! God help my bank account..

Killjoy00 wrote:Yea, for over 200 points. I don't think it's going to be that big a deal.

60 Night Goblins: 180pts w/o upgrades, 200 w/ command.

Killjoy00 wrote:A similarly costed Black Guard unit will kill 10 a turn.

And if priced anything like the VC's 6th Edition, will have only about two ranks / 15 models. Five player turns to break stubborn. But if going by typical rolls, you're looking at only 4.4 player turns. Or a jump to five game turns. That block of Night Goblins never goes away.

Killjoy00 wrote:Sure it'll take them a while to grind through, but you could accomplish the same thing right now with big block of flagellants and I don't see those being game breaking.

It's not game breaking, but it's one of the few things my O&G can now do to stave off nasty enemy units. Since there really aren't many other options than the 150pt front of "haha ten wounds this turn". Orcs don't have the troops to match any other army's elites, barring Iron Guts.

Killjoy00 wrote:Before O&G couldn't really tarpit anything.

Exactly, now they can. But they can now tarpit too well: You can honestly tell me you don't see the problem in a block of Ld 10 Stubborn Re-Roll Break Immune to Panic Night Goblins?

Therion wrote:

I'm not seeing the reason to take anything other than Infantry, Magic, and Missile troops in 8th.

Maybe some diverting units, but that's going to be about it.

Infantry, magic and missile troops, and two Hydras and some heroes/assassins to cause actual combat casualties with.

And Warmachines, how could I forget about the Warmachines.

Honestly looks like the Dwarf army I wanted will be sweet in 8th; now I just have to decide if I want to build/paint it.

So, it's official, 8th edition is good and it gets the Dakka seal of approval. We can all sleep safe tonight, and the world lives another day

I watched a demo game today and it was all good. Movement was fine, shooting was fine and combat was fine. This is a great edition.

When I think back to all the hysteria there was, and how few the measured voices of calm were, I just have to laugh.

I propose that there should be a naming and shaming campaign of all those who predicted doom, whilst people like flashman and Mad Doc should be knighted for being the voice of sanity

That same warmachine/shooting addition to the game will make it a LOT harder for infantry blocks to stay stubborn.

How many 20mm bases can fit under a couple of trebuchet templates. After thats all been tallied, could the wounds caused by a charging cavalry unit bring whatever goblin/clanrat unit small enough to be breakable?

I'm pretty sure killing models in CC will still be a very valuable ability. Just committing that killer too early is now dangerous.

Shep wrote:How many 20mm bases can fit under a couple of trebuchet templates.

21 with a direct hit, of which - assuming the target was T3 with only a 5+ save - would only cause about 7 wounds. Not enough for a panic check in a 30+ big unit.

Shep wrote:After thats all been tallied, could the wounds caused by a charging cavalry unit bring whatever goblin/clanrat unit small enough to be breakable?

Assuming a sixty big Night Goblin Block suffering nine casualties a hit and hit directly no less than four times, you would then require another ten casualties inflicted by a ten-big (or, if the 4-wide for rank thing is true, eight big) cavalry unit to drop the stubborn. Again, bear in mind that's four direct, maximized stone thrower hits when a unit has an average charge range of 10-12", a march of eight, and there's only a 24" gap between deployment zones. Often times, even with two Stone Throwers, four is the most shots you're going to get to make at the units before firing: Let alone that said throwers are going to be at least 70% of the unit's cost and there's likely to be multiple of said unit.

Of course, TK's can work around this: They can turn those four shots into eight, suddenly allowing two units to be countered (albeit for the additional cost of heroes) and thus free more points for the unit that'd attempt to finish the job.

Minsc wrote:

Killjoy00 wrote:Before O&G couldn't really tarpit anything.

Exactly, now they can. But they can now tarpit too well: You can honestly tell me you don't see the problem in a block of Ld 10 Stubborn Re-Roll Break Immune to Panic Night Goblins?

If they could do that all by themselves, maybe. But everything is in context. That general has to stay alive. There's missile fire going at them. While they are motionless, dying in droves each turn, more units can dive in, further lessening the time they remain stubborn. It really isn't that big a deal.

Looking at any one rule without context is silly. Big blocks of troops are better in many ways (while worse in a few other, i.e. templates).

Minsc wrote:

Killjoy00 wrote:Yea, for over 200 points. I don't think it's going to be that big a deal.

60 Night Goblins: 180pts w/o upgrades, 200 w/ command.

Killjoy00 wrote:A similarly costed Black Guard unit will kill 10 a turn.

And if priced anything like the VC's 6th Edition, will have only about two ranks / 15 models. Five player turns to break stubborn. But if going by typical rolls, you're looking at only 4.4 player turns. Or a jump to five game turns. That block of Night Goblins never goes away.

Killjoy00 wrote:Sure it'll take them a while to grind through, but you could accomplish the same thing right now with big block of flagellants and I don't see those being game breaking.

It's not game breaking, but it's one of the few things my O&G can now do to stave off nasty enemy units. Since there really aren't many other options than the 150pt front of "haha ten wounds this turn". Orcs don't have the troops to match any other army's elites, barring Iron Guts.

Killjoy00 wrote:Before O&G couldn't really tarpit anything.

Exactly, now they can. But they can now tarpit too well: You can honestly tell me you don't see the problem in a block of Ld 10 Stubborn Re-Roll Break Immune to Panic Night Goblins?

Wait! Wait! Has it really come to this!?! Orcs and goblins might actually be good enough to play again? Quick, get the nerf bat, can't actually have that!

Gloom! Doom! More Gloom!!! More Doom!!!! Hide your VC, Dark Elves, and Demons,!! The orcs are coming! The orcs are coming!

I got a look at the book today...Some thoughts...(And things that haven't been mentioned...)

Even single models get the +1 to flank/+2 to rear bonus
Even a single model being destroyed or breaking can cause a panic test
Random movement is fixed (Defines it as 'choose a direction and move that many inches). No more doomwheel zooming around. Also, the only charge reaction allowed against random movement is 'hold'
If you are charged by multiple units, it is possible to stand and shoot versus one, and then flee versus the next
Compulsary movement is now after move chargers instead of before it.
No more clipping is allowed. Chargers have infinite movement to reach once you see that they are in range. Range is defined as closest to closest also, so wheeling isn't taken into account for that.
If a cav unit (Or any single rank unit) charges in with a ranked unit, the cav unit has to clip as you have to have the most models fighting...The unit with the second rank fighting also will take precedance.
Hatred no longer forces you to pursue.

Magic system won't really affect horror spam for single die casts.

mikhaila wrote:

Wait! Wait! Has it really come to this!?! Orcs and goblins might actually be good enough to play again? Quick, get the nerf bat, can't actually have that!

Gloom! Doom! More Gloom!!! More Doom!!!! Hide your VC, Dark Elves, and Demons,!! The orcs are coming! The orcs are coming!

Exactly. The last edition favored small, elite units. Now the field is more balanced. It is just different.

Minsc wrote:

Shep wrote:How many 20mm bases can fit under a couple of trebuchet templates.

21 with a direct hit, of which - assuming the target was T3 with only a 5+ save - would only cause about 7 wounds. Not enough for a panic check in a 30+ big unit.

[.

your maths off

21 hits wound on 2+ that about 17-18 wounds and they would get no save thats 18 dead

Killjoy00 wrote:If they could do that all by themselves, maybe. But everything is in context. That general has to stay alive. There's missile fire going at them. While they are motionless, dying in droves each turn, more units can dive in, further lessening the time they remain stubborn. It really isn't that big a deal.

Gorbad only needs to remain within 18" in another large block. To my understanding, there's very little that will allow him to be picked out. Or, heck, even in the same block: A WS7 T5 model isn't exactly easy pickings to kill in a single round.

mikhaila wrote:Wait! Wait! Has it really come to this!?! Orcs and goblins might actually be good enough to play again? Quick, get the nerf bat, can't actually have that!

Yes, I play Orcs, so I'd obviously be afraid of them being good.

There's a difference between being upset that a NG block can hold someone up for a few turns, and being upset that a unit can probably hold up twice its point cost for at least two full game turns even after being slammed by magic missiles & shooting.

Also, if you've been reading my posts you'd know my opinion for 8th Edition Orcs is - for the most part - a resounding "meh".

EDIT:

youbedead wrote:
your maths off

21 hits wound on 2+ that about 17-18 wounds and they would get no save thats 18 dead

Where are you getting 2's to wound on S3 v T3? Let alone no saves?

Also, if you've been reading my posts you'd know my opinion for 8th Edition Orcs is - for the most part - a resounding "meh".

Actually, your posts have been so 'meh', that I generally don't read them. Sorry if I don't feel the same way as you do about 8th. Been reading the book all day long, and like it the more of it I digest. I don't pay nearly the attention others do to the metagamemathhammering. I'd rather actually play the game, and see how it works.

Which I plan to do tonite soon as the store closes. Ogres tonite, Orcs tomorrow, trying out 2nd editon dwarf army after that. 8th looks to be great for bringing more armies into the game.

mikhaila wrote:I don't pay nearly the attention others do to the metagamemathhammering. I'd rather actually play the game, and see how it works.

It should be noted that when I actually play games, my math-hammering tends to be minimum: I don't consider running lists with 25% or more of my points Arrer Boyz attempting to mathhammer my way to a cheesy victory.

However, just because I don't involve it in my games, doesn't make it any less valid or important to keep in mind even for casual games: If nine times out of ten some army is proven to be at a complete disadvantage against another, it's good to know. Similarly, if nine times out of ten an army is going to wipe the floor with another, that's also good to know (for instance: O&G - amazingly - don't like fighting Plague Bearers. With the new Regen-or-Ward rule, the degree of dislike will most probably decrease).

mikhaila wrote:Also, if you've been reading my posts you'd know my opinion for 8th Edition Orcs is - for the most part - a resounding "meh".

Actually, your posts have been so 'meh', that I generally don't read them. Sorry if I don't feel the same way as you do about 8th. Been reading the book all day long, and like it the more of it I digest. I don't pay nearly the attention others do to the metagamemathhammering. I'd rather actually play the game, and see how it works.

Which I plan to do tonite soon as the store closes. Ogres tonite, Orcs tomorrow, trying out 2nd editon dwarf army after that. 8th looks to be great for bringing more armies into the game.

So since you have the book and I know you're someone who has good knowledge on the game in general, what point are you seeing to taking Cav and/or Monsters? I'm hoping there is one, but I don't have the whole picture.

And what Friday is good for you?

Minsc wrote: Gorbad only needs to remain within 18" in another large block. To my understanding, there's very little that will allow him to be picked out. Or, heck, even in the same block: A WS7 T5 model isn't exactly easy pickings to kill in a single round.

Or he takes one wound and it is only 6 inches.

If your biggest worry is that a 200 point unit in combination with a 300 point special character nearby holds up a single enemy unit for too long, I think that's not a huge worry.

I was more worried that the new edition would lead to zero tarpits. I think overall, you'll see many fewer because so many more attacks will be thrown around.

I was very pleasantly surprised in reading the rulebook. I'm definitely more excited for 8th now.



Voodoo, I know you were asking mikhaila, but I will say that you will see those units as support chargers mostly. They would be the biggest nerf. More like how I currently use wild riders - holding them back for good impact because I can't risk them out in the open. More cavalry will be like that. Positioning and supported tactics will become much more important (which is good thing).

Monsters will be nice for your general to ride to give your large blocks of infantry his leadership Gorbad-style. But again, more in a support capacity as opposed to running out, killing all their warmachines then rolling a flank by themselves like often happens now.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

mikhaila wrote:Also, if you've been reading my posts you'd know my opinion for 8th Edition Orcs is - for the most part - a resounding "meh".

Actually, your posts have been so 'meh', that I generally don't read them. Sorry if I don't feel the same way as you do about 8th. Been reading the book all day long, and like it the more of it I digest. I don't pay nearly the attention others do to the metagamemathhammering. I'd rather actually play the game, and see how it works.

Which I plan to do tonite soon as the store closes. Ogres tonite, Orcs tomorrow, trying out 2nd editon dwarf army after that. 8th looks to be great for bringing more armies into the game.

So since you have the book and I know you're someone who has good knowledge on the game in general, what point are you seeing to taking Cav and/or Monsters? I'm hoping there is one, but I don't have the whole picture.

And what Friday is good for you?

Ludwigs down this friday, we may play late, I'll throw up a post on the showcase forum after I talk to him. Get a few of us together to test it out.

Cavalry do get supporting attacks, but only the riders in the second rank. I think we may see more cav run in two ranks, manuevering from the flanks, and charging in to disrupt infantry. Either in the turn your infantry charge, or after your big block of stubborn infantry take the charge from the other guy. Hammer and anvil tactcis. Stuff like chaos knights will still crush through stuff, with good str and high init. and will fill more of a heavy cavalry roll that you see in historicals.

Fast cav being able to move, march, and shoot on the turn they rally is going to be interesting. Fast cav with missles become harrying troops, pumping arrows into units, running away, and getting back into the fight quick.

All cav will be cleaning up the small units that other people will be running to muck up the battle lines. My orcs are looking forward to throwing out things like pump wagons and squig herds to annoy people. Ignore them and they will be running in on your flanks and backfield.)

My last 10 minutes of combing through the book also has me wanting to take my VC out to play. More cav in the mix, and Manfred leading them. Death Magic is looking nasty, and Manny knows all the spells automatically.)

mikhaila wrote:Also, if you've been reading my posts you'd know my opinion for 8th Edition Orcs is - for the most part - a resounding "meh".

Actually, your posts have been so 'meh', that I generally don't read them. Sorry if I don't feel the same way as you do about 8th. Been reading the book all day long, and like it the more of it I digest. I don't pay nearly the attention others do to the metagamemathhammering. I'd rather actually play the game, and see how it works.

Which I plan to do tonite soon as the store closes. Ogres tonite, Orcs tomorrow, trying out 2nd editon dwarf army after that. 8th looks to be great for bringing more armies into the game.

Yeah, one or two have earned ignores because reading their repetitive posts of doom and gloom became pretty burdensome. Agree or Disagree, make your point, and move on.

I like the sound of things, but will hold final judgment until I hold the book in my hands. I've said that from the beginning. My Lizards will make some interesting shifts, I think. Still not sure what to do with my skinks. I more thorough description of what skirmishers do would be welcome so I can my army once 8th hits. Then I can see how they perform on the table.

Guys, sure I am offering my opinion, but you really have to read the book for yourself before drawing conclusions. For me, I love it. Love it to bits (may or may not have ordered a Gamers AND a Collectors edition )

Now, Monsters...they can take out units all on their own. Get them in the flank, and grind, grind, grind. Sure the unit is likely to remain Steadfast throughout, but you are still chewing out horrendous chunks of troops, with only a single rank ever getting to fight back (unless they manage a cheeky reform. Which is why you have another unit ready to commit. You do have a secondary unit, don't you?).

Tactical depth has sunk to a new (positive) low with 8th Edition. Adapt, and love it!

Those magic cards are a must-buy for me.

Monsters won't be as useful, I'm thinking.

They did take away the +1 to hit large targets, and I haven't seen the 'whole unit can shoot at monsters' rule like you had in 7th.

But I can also see the use of a monster in the flank just giving the +1 for flank, making them take terror/fear tests, and chewing down the numbers of a big ranked unit.


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The Crippler wrote:Those magic cards are a must-buy for me.

They have a separate little set for Beasts, and may do all the others too!

So, are items like the High Elves' Moonbow and Bow of the Seafarer going to be more or less useful in clearing out ranks?

Minsc wrote:
EDIT:

youbedead wrote:
your maths off

21 hits wound on 2+ that about 17-18 wounds and they would get no save thats 18 dead

Where are you getting 2's to wound on S3 v T3? Let alone no saves?

sorry i was still thinking str 5 vs t3

Stone throwers are now str 3(9)

mikhaila wrote:Monsters won't be as useful, I'm thinking.

They did take away the +1 to hit large targets, and I haven't seen the 'whole unit can shoot at monsters' rule like you had in 7th.

But I can also see the use of a monster in the flank just giving the +1 for flank, making them take terror/fear tests, and chewing down the numbers of a big ranked unit.


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The Crippler wrote:Those magic cards are a must-buy for me.

They have a separate little set for Beasts, and may do all the others too!

Wait, separate set for Beasts? What do you mean?

Glad to see actual confirmation on things. Looking forward to it and have lost my sense of dread. I'm pre-ordering for my own birthday! WOOT!

Therion wrote:

25% cap on lords means that 2000 point games won't see any single lord choice worth more than 500 points meaning Dragon lords and Greater Daemons are out of that points value.

how does this negate dragon lord? I just made a twin dragon 2k point army with high elves(prince on moon, and dragon Mage of caledor). both are well below 500. I can see star dragons being totally out but Sun and moon Dragons are doable (I was making a blind guardian army, so a sun and moon dragon were required. ) if anything the removal of limitations out side of points will cut the uber super mega OMG lords, but will increase the use of lords in general.

Just to be clear, you have to have 1 extra rank yourself to deny ranks. So dragons and monsters and chariots (and most cavalry) will not be denying ranks any longer.

Wrong. Sorry, but you are wrong on a technicality, monsters can have more ranks. .......... it's called lizardmen and we put stegodons in units of saurus.

mikhaila wrote:Fast cav being able to move, march, and shoot on the turn they rally is going to be interesting.

They've been able to do that in 7th as well (Granted, only if they fled a charge...)

Is there a list of actual confirmed changes anywhere?


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gendoikari87 wrote:

Just to be clear, you have to have 1 extra rank yourself to deny ranks. So dragons and monsters and chariots (and most cavalry) will not be denying ranks any longer.

Wrong. Sorry, but you are wrong on a technicality, monsters can have more ranks. .......... it's called lizardmen and we put stegodons in units of saurus.

Wow, how wonderfully pedantic...

I'm surprised no one's mentioned(that I've seen) Bloodcrushers being Monstrous Cav and having Stomp! now...

Karon wrote:

mikhaila wrote:Monsters won't be as useful, I'm thinking.

They did take away the +1 to hit large targets, and I haven't seen the 'whole unit can shoot at monsters' rule like you had in 7th.

But I can also see the use of a monster in the flank just giving the +1 for flank, making them take terror/fear tests, and chewing down the numbers of a big ranked unit.


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The Crippler wrote:Those magic cards are a must-buy for me.

They have a separate little set for Beasts, and may do all the others too!

Wait, separate set for Beasts? What do you mean?

The battlemagic cards will have cards for each of the spell lores that is in the big rule book. They have on the schedule a separate set of cards for the magic beastmen get, and I assume will be making cards for ogres, vc, orc and goblins, and the other race/army specific magic that doesn't come in the rulebook.

If they do make O&G, I'd expect them to wait for the new book: It's some time in Q4 of 2010, yes? I mean, while I could see them trying to get people to buy two sets of cards (A 7th Ed and 8th Ed pair), I can't see them doing it as they'd have to realize that - unless very limited edition - too many would wind up taking up storage space by years' end.

There is no new Orcs & Goblins book on the horizon.

Orcs and Goblins received new model kits, that's it.

Ok, so I spent the afternoon at the games store reading the rulebook, and after trying in vain to bribe the owner into letting me take it home I have a basic, but not detailed, list of things I like and things I don't like.
Likes
1. I like horde
2. Supporting attacks and volley fire are the tits.
3. Being stubborn if you have more ranks than the enemy is cool, and makes big units a more viable option.
4. Monstrous Cavalry and Infantry rules were a breath of fresh air and MUCH NEEDED.
5. Monsters are going to be raging death machines, as they should be, with Thunderstomp (I think that's what it was called) and breathing into combat. One thing I also like is that they'll usually get a static resolution of 3, as they'll cause Terror and charge, and often on the flank, so that evens out ranks as it is. And since nobody gets combat res for outnumbering, a ranked up unit will usually only have 1 static res (banner) on a dragon/bloodthirster, and I imagine it'll do more than one wound. Very cool. They'll probably be stubborn, but not after another turn of that punishment.
6. War machine templates "no partial hits" rule. This will get rid of all the damn arguments over what's full and what's partial.

Dislikes
1. Skirmishers. There's virtually no reason to take skirmishers at all in the new edition. They got nerfed really, really hard, which makes armies like Wood Elves nigh unplayable. I'll be pouring out a Guinness for them tonight.
2. Random charge movement. If there's one thing that I have an insane, psychotic hatred of in this game, it's the random charge distance. This adds unpredicability to the most strategic part of the game, and really screws over armies that relied so heavily on getting the charge (i.e. Brets).
3. Being able to measure all ranges beforehand. I liked War of the Ring, but this doesn't sit with me well in Warhammer. Once again, it's like it wants to dumb it down so that you don't really need to know your army that well, because having a good idea of how far 16" was ensured that you would make it.
4. The slowed terrain. So you're telling me that I can go full speed through the woods in my ranked up formation, but some of my guys are going to die. Why not just slow down? Also, this means that taking my 50-strong unit of clanrats through the woods is all gravy, but my 10 swordmasters might want to steer clear. It just makes no sense.
5. The slowed terrain Pt. II. Why are 5 out of every 6 woods in the Old World now possessed? Shouldn't I be able to tell that the trees are dripping blood before I go in there?
6. The fact that the book is 550 pages long and only 130 of them are rules. Granted, some of the stuff in the back is really cool, but I've seen most of the graphics before and ALL of the miniatures, aside from the hideous new Daemons of Chaos models in there. I could do with a little more substance and a lot less filler, i.e. awesome Golden Demon painted models and conversions rather than more of the same. But that's just my pet peeve.

So that's about it. I own over 3000 points, fully painted, of every Fantasy army aside from Lizardmen, Skaven and Beastmen, and I'm working on those now. I fully expected some players to love the new rules based solely on them giving a power boost to their armies, and I was not disappointed, although it's still annoying. I can't shake the suspicion that this is all a ploy for GW to sell massive quantities of Goblin and Clanrat miniatures, but if the game sucks when we get it on the table then we can always just house-rule it. Or go back to 6th edition.

Killjoy00 wrote:Stone throwers are now str 3(9)

Am I mistaken, or doesn't the Bretonnian Army book state that trebuchet is Str 5?

mikhaila wrote:

Karon wrote:

mikhaila wrote:Monsters won't be as useful, I'm thinking.

They did take away the +1 to hit large targets, and I haven't seen the 'whole unit can shoot at monsters' rule like you had in 7th.

But I can also see the use of a monster in the flank just giving the +1 for flank, making them take terror/fear tests, and chewing down the numbers of a big ranked unit.


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The Crippler wrote:Those magic cards are a must-buy for me.

They have a separate little set for Beasts, and may do all the others too!

Wait, separate set for Beasts? What do you mean?

The battlemagic cards will have cards for each of the spell lores that is in the big rule book. They have on the schedule a separate set of cards for the magic beastmen get, and I assume will be making cards for ogres, vc, orc and goblins, and the other race/army specific magic that doesn't come in the rulebook.

Oh, you mean Wild Magic from the Beastmen Army book, my bad. I thought you meant from the Lore of the Beasts.

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Kanluwen wrote:There is no new Orcs & Goblins book on the horizon.

Orcs and Goblins received new model kits, that's it.

Could have sworn...

Some new WHFB has to be in the works for the end of the year. I may have only been in the game for about nine years (and thus this being my third WHFB and third 40K editions), but I can't recall a single release for any of those editions wherein at least one army book didn't follow by year's end. I just figured it'd be Orcs, but I guess thinking about it Empire or Dwarves would be more likely (don't dwarves still have Dogs of War options?).

eledamris wrote:5. Monsters are going to be raging death machines, as they should be, with Thunderstomp (I think that's what it was called) and breathing into combat. One thing I also like is that they'll usually get a static resolution of 3, as they'll cause Terror and charge, and often on the flank, so that evens out ranks as it is. And since nobody gets combat res for outnumbering, a ranked up unit will usually only have 1 static res (banner) on a dragon/bloodthirster, and I imagine it'll do more than one wound. Very cool. They'll probably be stubborn, but not after another turn of that punishment.

Two things:
1) Outnumber was removed? Not too pleased about that, but I guess the fact that most players who outnumber and aren't horde-ing will be stubborn in turn.
2) Unless the rest of us have been missing something, the unit will still get +3 for Ranks (you need to both have rank-possessing capability and a second rank to negate ranks now). Not that it means too much: You have pointed out now that it technically is about the same as now, barring the fact that the unit has become Stubborn.

eledamris wrote:6. War machine templates "no partial hits" rule. This will get rid of all the damn arguments over what's full and what's partial.

Personally, I did: Half or more full, any touch partial. However, it does end arguments. Not too pleased seeing that a tiny corner being touched counts as a direct hit, however.

eledamris wrote:and really screws over armies that relied so heavily on getting the charge (i.e. Brets).

You might also want to consider that Bretonnians gain very little from the Lance Formation now: A nine big unit of Bretonnians using lance formation only gets a single attack more than a four-by-two unit of Empire Knights (barring horsies, of course), and one more rank to boot. It is sort of a plus at least that nine Bretonnians can negate stubborn from an Infantry unit that isn't at least 20 big by the combat's end.

eledamris wrote:4. The slowed terrain. So you're telling me that I can go full speed through the woods in my ranked up formation, but some of my guys are going to die. Why not just slow down? Also, this means that taking my 50-strong unit of clanrats through the woods is all gravy, but my 10 swordmasters might want to steer clear. It just makes no sense.

I'm going to see if people at my GW won't mind letting me use the "Loose formation" thing from Lustria (which, IMO, would have been much better for the terrain than turning it all Dangerous). Sure, Ogres and the like would still have been slowed, but perhaps something could have been worked out for them (40mm models gain an extra inch after halving movement to represent their bulk / height?) to allow them to clear woods faster.

eledamris wrote:5. The slowed terrain Pt. II. Why are 5 out of every 6 woods in the Old World now possessed? Shouldn't I be able to tell that the trees are dripping blood before I go in there?

The emphasis is being put on Fantasy, seemingly.

eledamris wrote:6. The fact that the book is 550 pages long and only 130 of them are rules. Granted, some of the stuff in the back is really cool, but I've seen most of the graphics before and ALL of the miniatures, aside from the hideous new Daemons of Chaos models in there. I could do with a little more substance and a lot less filler, i.e. awesome Golden Demon painted models and conversions rather than more of the same. But that's just my pet peeve.

But how could they justify a 300pg (or, worse, a 200pg) book with a $75 price tag?


NOTE: I must apologize if this is a double post.

eledamris wrote:
6. The fact that the book is 550 pages long and only 130 of them are rules.

The next time I go in, I'm going to have to count them, because that doesn't seem right. Did you include the Legendary Battles rules, Allies, and Scenarios that are tucked in just past the army sections?

eledamris wrote:
5. Monsters are going to be raging death machines, as they should be, with Thunderstomp (I think that's what it was called) and breathing into combat. One thing I also like is that they'll usually get a static resolution of 3, as they'll cause Terror and charge, and often on the flank, so that evens out ranks as it is. And since nobody gets combat res for outnumbering, a ranked up unit will usually only have 1 static res (banner) on a dragon/bloodthirster, and I imagine it'll do more than one wound. Very cool. They'll probably be stubborn, but not after another turn of that punishment.

Unless I missed something, the dragon/bloodthirster won't be able to break ranks because it doesn't have an extra rank. And I don't think terror adds to combat res. I just saw the Ld test or WS1, and terror requires a test when charged. So often the monster will be losing by a few to start.

If we see any new Warhammer armies, my money's on High Elves.

Interesting things I noticed and didn't see mentioned: intervening models provide hard cover which is a -2 to to hit! That's huge!!

Also, skirmishers get supporting attacks from the second row when they get into combat . My dryads are better this edition than last: no more outnumber to hurt them, +1 CR if they charge (making a net +2 from what they had before when charging a block), they get to attack first even if they get charged at I6, and they get more attacks with the support from behind! AND they're stubborn in woods. What's not to love?

Personally, I don't think skirmishers are going away anytime soon . You'll need them to screen your shiny new big blocks

Large targets don't get +1 to be hit, but also don't get to benefit from cover I believe, so it ends up evening out.

Stomp attacks auto-hit! And magic is awesome, simple and fun. Got to play a test game with high elves vs. skaven, and it was great

Killjoy00 wrote:

eledamris wrote:
5. Monsters are going to be raging death machines, as they should be, with Thunderstomp (I think that's what it was called) and breathing into combat. One thing I also like is that they'll usually get a static resolution of 3, as they'll cause Terror and charge, and often on the flank, so that evens out ranks as it is. And since nobody gets combat res for outnumbering, a ranked up unit will usually only have 1 static res (banner) on a dragon/bloodthirster, and I imagine it'll do more than one wound. Very cool. They'll probably be stubborn, but not after another turn of that punishment.

Unless I missed something, the dragon/bloodthirster won't be able to break ranks because it doesn't have an extra rank. And I don't think terror adds to combat res. I just saw the Ld test or WS1, and terror requires a test when charged. So often the monster will be losing by a few to start.

I'm not talking about negating ranks, I'm talking about evening it out by adding it's own static res of 3 (charge, terror and flank).

Minsc wrote:
Could have sworn...

Some new WHFB has to be in the works for the end of the year. I may have only been in the game for about nine years (and thus this being my third WHFB and third 40K editions), but I can't recall a single release for any of those editions wherein at least one army book didn't follow by year's end. I just figured it'd be Orcs, but I guess thinking about it Empire or Dwarves would be more likely (don't dwarves still have Dogs of War options?).

I'm pretty sure Tomb Kings are next. Since their magic is completely broken per the current rules (the TK book says they are "cast as a bound spell"...


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eledamris wrote:

I'm not talking about negating ranks, I'm talking about evening it out by adding it's own static res of 3 (charge, terror and flank).

I didn't think terror was static res is what I was saying.

Doesn't Fear give you a +1 combat res? Damn, I so badly wish I could have bribed the store owner....

Now that you mention it what are the new rules for fear and terror? Are they sufficient to justify spending 8 pts for a renewable goblin (skellie)?
The reason I ask is that there's no GW outlet in Oregon, so we have to wait for GW to deign to bless our local store with a copy of the rules.

RiTides wrote:Personally, I don't think skirmishers are going away anytime soon . You'll need them to screen your shiny new big blocks

Exactly what I'm using my Ungor Raiders for, woot.

Durzod wrote:Now that you mention it what are the new rules for fear and terror? Are they sufficient to justify spending 8 pts for a renewable goblin (skellie)?
The reason I ask is that there's no GW outlet in Oregon, so we have to wait for GW to deign to bless our local store with a copy of the rules.

From what I remember, this is all that fear and terror consist of:

Each round of hand to hand, fear causes a leadership test. If the other side fails, their WS is 1 for that round of combat.

Terror does this as well, but in addition, if you are charged by a terror causer, you have to take a leadership test. If you fail, your charge reaction becomes flee.

That's all I remember it being though. No static combat res.

Edit: Ninja'ed . Right on point, Killjoy!

Fear and Terror do NOT give combat res. I remember a fear leadership test giving you WS 1 if you fail for that round of combat. I can't remember if it did anything if you weren't in combat.

Terror... I'm drawing a blank. Sorry . But definitely NO combat res!

so my first impressions are not as cheerful as everyone else

as a liz player my saraurs warriors did not get buffed or nerfet
my TG's did not get nerfed or buffed. yea they can finally charge up to 14 inches but so can everyone else oh... im INT 2. ....... you go first.
Maximum of 12 dice for spell pool... ... in a 2000 point game this is going to be gak power dice.
skink skirms with blowpipes got a big kick in the ass. ok so they can march and shoot. but we DID not get the rapid fire or Quick Draw for Blowpipes only for
Javelins. they have to be in a formation, they have to wheel, we dont get a musican. ... ... .. ... .. .. my list that i normally run has to be altered a lot.

i used to play super magic... and with the mis cast table 100% bad like OMG>>> super dead skinks this is not going to a very magic list any more

end rant. tommorow i will try my CC Sarus blocks.

Thanks. More info than I had. Looks like I'm gonna have to wait until the book shows up here to have a gander. I seriously doubt if I'm gonna plunk down $75 on a rules set sight unseen.
Not too enthusiastic about the boxed set. Got enough Hi Elfs. Don't really want to start Skaven, but looks like I'm doomed. Might as well go all the way and get ogres, too. Then I'll have the full set...until they create a new race to suck at my wallet (sigh).

About Lizardmen: I wouldn't think the 12 PD thing would bother their Slaan, what with being able to add a PD to each spell cast freely w/o needing it in the pool.

Minsc wrote:About Lizardmen: I wouldn't think the 12 PD thing would bother their Slaan, what with being able to add a PD to each spell cast freely w/o needing it in the pool.

aye

here is the issue with that..

so if you FAIL to cast you cant cast. YOu cannot cast any more WITH that model for the rest of the magic phase.

... Now you do get a nice +4 bonus because Slanns are a level 4 wiz however if you dont meet (i believe (dont quote) 4 or greater ) than you dont get the spell off.

so tossing 6 dice 5 from the pool and 1 free from a slann isnt smart (you might get the box cars) but... in the likely hood of bad dice your 400 point Battle cannon just got stunned ( a little PUN there)

Minsc wrote: It is sort of a plus at least that nine Bretonnians can negate stubborn from an Infantry unit that isn't at least 20 big by the combat's end.

As it stands, the rulebook specifies ranks of 5 or more models. Unless there is an Erratta for Brets (Hopefully will be) then they count as having 0 ranks for the stubborn thing.

The brets rules say that they can do ranks of 3. That overrides BRB (same way they still got lance ranks when the rulebook went from 4 to 5 wide for ranks on everyone else).

Note that a lot of this changes are still overridden by current army books. Only in certain places (like army composition) did the BRB specifically overrule current army books. For instance, war banner still costs 25 points for everyone, even though BRB has it at 35.

skyth wrote:

Minsc wrote: It is sort of a plus at least that nine Bretonnians can negate stubborn from an Infantry unit that isn't at least 20 big by the combat's end.

As it stands, the rulebook specifies ranks of 5 or more models. Unless there is an Erratta for Brets (Hopefully will be) then they count as having 0 ranks for the stubborn thing.

To my knowledge, Bretonnians get the +1 Rank for 3 models by their special rule (Lance Formation), which is explicitly stated to override typical rank-granting rules. If it doesn't, well, feth.

remember codex trumps rulebook

However, there will be erratas for each army book the day before the rulebook is released... most likely to bring everything in line with the rulebook.

skyth wrote:

Minsc wrote: It is sort of a plus at least that nine Bretonnians can negate stubborn from an Infantry unit that isn't at least 20 big by the combat's end.

As it stands, the rulebook specifies ranks of 5 or more models. Unless there is an Erratta for Brets (Hopefully will be) then they count as having 0 ranks for the stubborn thing.

I think we can safely let this one ride. It says full ranks, and for Brets that means 3 wide. It'll also be a great way to see if you're playing against a huge douche, so it's like a built-in filter to find people you probably don't want to play against anyway.

Held the book in my hands. You could cave in someones skull with it. Only skimmed the rules a little bit. I saw nothing in any of the standard scenarios requiring a standard for objective, in fact the standard scenarios all use VP's of some kind.

I don't know Fantasy well enough to make any comparisons between old and new so not sure what rules are new, what ones aren't. Was checking out some of the spells. Lore of Fire had some nice ones.

Lots of pages of fluff on the various armies, model showcase, some pics of past Golden Daemon entries and some alternative rules for what appears to be legendary units or something (near the back).

Great, easy to follow diagrams. Everything I could see is diagramed and explained well with very little confusion (even for someone like me). I so am ordering the book when it comes out and I'm tempted to spend the next 2-3 nights at local game store reading it (I have a photographic memory).

IMO worth the price tag alone for all the NON-rules reading you can do and all the pretty pictures. It is a gorgeous, well laid out book and the little ribbon bookmarker is a neat addition and kind of adds that "old era" feel.

5/5 for content
5/5 for weight (though not something id want to lug to tournaments but it FEELS like it's worth $75. I've bought WW2 pictorial history books with fewer pages for the same amount of money).
5/5 price. $75 seems a lot but with 20% or greater savings it's going to be $60 or less which is still not a bad price.
5/5 rules. Like I said I'm no expert but everything looks well laid out, the few pages of rules I read, even skimming, were easy to understand and explained well.

I'm getting the normal book. All the templates look cool but I'm also saving up for a HD tv. Right now the HD tv takes priority but I'm definately forcing myself to spend $65 (through Neal) on the rulebook in July.

yeah i got out of WFB because playing dwarves was so. so. dull. I picked up an AoBR set and haven't looked back, until now. Still want to sell my 2k dwarves but WFB is looking interesting again..

Preordered my book today from the GW site since I needed it quick. Nobody really is a faster shipper than GW. This is something I'll need ASAP anyways.

Hmm, I don't live close enough to TN because I usually get stuff faster through Neal. Typically I order on Monday it arrives Friday. If I order from Neal on Monday before 5pm his time (4 central) the order is here by Thursday.

Unless he happens to be out of stock then typically it's faster through GW as they probably do have an item in stock.

580 pages and it doesn't have all the rules I need to play? I understand GW has this codex-splash release marketing thing, but if I buy a game, I expect to get all the rules in the rulebook. I'll make an exception for games where the rules come on little cards so when I buy I unit I can use it, but that's about it.

When I got 2nd edition 40k all those years ago, it had a black rulebook/codex so I could use the models I want until I got the codex. When 3rd ed came out, it had all the armies in the back until they got codexes. I recall WFB 4th edition also having the full rules come with the game.

I must be spoiled by actual game companies making their games with the rules you need to play. I guess I shouldn't expect GW to do the same given that their marketing strategy has been married to the codex splash release approach.

I refuse to play a game where the army books/codecies are from previous editions and were designed with those rules in mind rather than the current ones.

GW's last chance to suck me back into WFB is the FAQs. If they TRULY update each army to the current edition, I'll give 8th a look, but if all they do is address how things work only in those circumstances where the older edition army book is in conflict with the new rules, I'll pass.

Some of the changes sound good, but if the same fundamental problems are going to be there because they won't address the game issues caused by their release method, that's enough for me to keep clear of WFB and wait and see if 9th will be done under a better approach.

Kanluwen wrote:There is no new Orcs & Goblins book on the horizon.

Orcs and Goblins received new model kits, that's it.

Orcs, Khemri, Ogres, Bretonnians.

Or so I've heard. Crossing my fingers.

Did I read the Magic rules correctly? You only miscast on double 6s? which is also irresistible force (at least your spell goes off, unmolested) rolling less than 3 total (disregarding modifiers) means you just fail to cast and that caster is done for the current magic phase (not a miscast)...The dreaded 13th spell seems a little more doable than before, if you end up rolling high on the "winds of magic" roll. Also interesting is the dispel dice being determined by that same "winds of magic" roll...

I'm pretty stoked to get a few games in under the new system...

There are a few red herrings in the book, that are sure to spark some drama.

Terrain - No ones really going to use the silly terrain charts in the back of the book. They are incomplete in the first place. Woods have a 1-6 chart with silly effects. Hills says "examples of some types of hills". Most of the terrain does not have charts to roll on to decide what type of terrain effects to use. They also don't make a lot of sense to randomly put the stuff out.

I see it more as ways to set up a game of Fantasy Battle, if you so choose. For tournaments, it's going to be standard hills, forests etc. It does give a tournament organizer the chance to add scenic elements to tables, using the arcane ruins etc, and have them have effects on the game, or as objectives in the scenarios. The event I'm running on the 11th is going to use some of the wacky stuff, just because it's a wacky tournament with no one really knowing how to play the game after one day. For a GT, I won't be using much, if any, of those terrain effects.

Scenerios - Some basic ones in the front of the book, most good for tournaments, and balanced. In the back are a lot of others, not balanced, with some using attacker/defender and non-symmetric set ups. I'm sure someone's going to post stuff on those, and rant about having to play them. You won't be seeing them in a tournament.

Dwarf Blimps with cannons!! Even rules for them. 5 organ guns of shooty death from above! Cool stuff in the back, for what looks like very playable Apocalypse style games of fantasy. I think this edition pulls it off well, with the changes to the system that would make large blocks of troops be playable, and the limitation on magic in larger games. The scenery in this section is stunning. But don't expect to see many dwarf airships in normal games.

Durzod wrote:

Killjoy00 wrote:Stone throwers are now str 3(9)

Am I mistaken, or doesn't the Bretonnian Army book state that trebuchet is Str 5?

Also Empire Rockets are st5 (5" template, AP heh)

Some new information on the Updates, Erratas and FAQ.

Army Book Updates will be available from Launch Day online. They do not however, include updated Magic Lores.

Overall FAQ to be compiled, and released (hopefully) around two weeks after launch day.

Ok, mates, got this from a guy who has the book. Enjoy.

1. Turn sequence has not changed. Still move, magic, shoot , close combat.

2. Movement has Start of Turn, Charge, Compulsory, and Remaining moves.

3. Declare your charge. Target must make charge reaction before next charge is declared.

4. Always allowed to measure before declaring charge. BOO!

5. Redirecting the charge. If the target unit declares a FLEE reaction, the charging unit now has a choice: it can either attempt to complete the charge against the now-fleeing unit, or try to redirect its charge by making a Leadership test. If the test is failed, the charging unit must attempt to complete the charge against the original target. If the test is passed, however, the charging unit can declare a fresh charge against another viable target (the chargee may declare a charge reaction as normal.) IF there are no other suitable targets to charge, a charging unit cannot test to redirect. Each unit can only make one redirect per turn.

6. Units charge range is 2D6" + MV. Failed charge moves directly towards the target inches equal to the highest dice rolled.

7. If you charge a fleeing enemy and catch them, you can pass a leadership test to get an immediate reform maneuver.

8. Fleeing units flee in the direction they are facing. If you hit enemy or impassable terrain, take Dangerous Terrain test. You get to move through the enemy or terrain. If infantry, roll d6 per model. 2-6 fine. 1 model suffers 1 wound no armor save.

9. Units within 8 inches of an enemy can march if they pass a leadership test.

Magic

1. Roll 2D6 to determine number of dice available. Casting player rolls a D6 for each wizard. For each 6 rolled, add 1 dice to the power pool. Fleeing wizards don't count.
2. Power pool of dice can never exceed 12.
3. Dispelling player gets a number of dispel dice equal to the highest D6 roll of the two Winds of Magic dice. Dispelling player can roll D6 for each wizard. On a 6 player gets an extra dispel die.
4. Dispel pool can never exceed 12.
5. Can measure distance to make sure target is in range.
6. Target must be in forward arc. Does not need LOS.
7. Magic missiles do require LOS.
8. Augment spells do not require LOS.
9. Magical vortexes use templates. Place and move according to spell. Remains in play.
10. Minimum of 1 die used to cast a spell, maximum of 6.
11. Add total of dice, add wizard's level to equal or beat casting value.
12. Some spells have Boosted effects. Unless stated, you are using the base spell.
13. If you fail to cast or the total of the natural dice scores is 1 or 2, the wizard is unable to cast spells for the rest of the magic phase.
14. Any 2 sixes give you a irresistible force. Resolve the spell. Then roll on the miscast table.

Miscast table:

2-4 Place large template over wizard. No look out sir. Every model takes a S10 hit. Once damage is resolved, roll D6. On a 3 or less, wizard is removed as a casualty. On a 4 or more, D6 dice are lost from the power pool.

5-6 Put small template over wizard. S10 hit for all models and D6 dice lost from pool.

7 All models in base with wizard (but not the wizard) suffer S10 hit. D6 dice lost from pool.
8-9 Wizard and all other casters on the same side suffer S6 hit. D6 dice lost from pool.
10-12 Wizard level is reduced by D3 to a minimum of 0 and forgets a spell for each level lost. First spell lost is the one miscast.

15. To dispel, use any number of dice, (minimum of 1) and add wizards level for dispel. Must beat casting number. 2 sixes rolled to dispel is auto dispel.
16. Dwarfs get +2 to dispel, unless there is a wizard on their side in same army of part of an allied force.
17. Bound spells use dice from the pool. Number rolled must beat casting number of the spell. Bound spells can get IF. If IF and magic is within item, item dissolves. If bound spell is ability (ex Warrior priest spells) then cannot use bound spells for rest of the phase.

Shooting

1. Models in second rank can use front rank's line of sight to shoot.

2. "All models in a unit have to shoot at the same target. Due to the relative positions of the shooting unit and the target, it might happen that some models in
the firing unit can shoot the target while other models in the unit cannot (the target may be out of their forward arc or completely obscured by terrain or other models.) Sometimes, some models in the shooting unit will be out of range. In these situations, you're free to continue with the shot, but only those models permitted to shoot the target (and that have it within their weapons' range will fire.

In such circumstances, we assume that disciplined troops such as Elves simply do not fire at all and conserve ammunition. On the other hand, it's easy to imagine that more boisterous warriors, such as goblins, loose their arrows in an impressive looking (but hopeless and impossibly inaccurate) volley. In either case, for gaming purposes, these models do not shoot."

BADLY WORDED.

3. Shooting can wound any toughness on a 6+.

Close Combat:

1. Models in second rank can fight if model directly in front of them fights. No second rank to flank or rear. Second ranks only get 1 attack per model regardless of profile.
2. "Any unit that is at least 10 models wide is counted as being a horde. Warriors in a horde can make supporting attacks from the third rank, not just the second!"
3. Blows are struck in initiative order. If I is the same then attacks are simultaneous.
4. When a model as 2 or more Initiatives, resolve them in order. If all eligible models for attack have been removed, then the attacks are lost.
5. Combat Resolution:
+1 per wound
+1 if you charged.
+1 per rank with at least five models, maximum of +3
+1 for a standard
Flanks and rears negate ranks as long as the flanker has 2 ranks of 5 models.
+1 for flanking
+2 for rear
+1 if the unit charged down hill.
+1 for BSB in unit.
+1 for overkill, max of +5

6. Loser takes break test as normal. Modified leadership effects break test and "any subsequent attempt to make a combat reform." More later on that.
7. Steadfast: If a defeated unit has more ranks than its enemy, it takes its break test on unmodified leadership. Or generals leadership if in 12" range. Being flanked does not effect this.
8. Insane courage is still there.
9. Combat reform.
From victory: If your unit wins the close combat but the enemy does not flee, or the combat was a draw, your unit can immediately make a combat reform maneuver. Can turn to face enemy in flank or rear or expand frontage. Cannot be used to take model in base contact out of base contact.

From Loss: If your unit loses the combat, but does not flee, it can still attempt a combat reform. Must pass a Ld test with modifiers from break test. If steadfast or unbreakable, use unmodified Ld.

If unit is engaged to 2 sides it cannot combat reform.

10. Multiple close combats. If a side has more than one unit in a close combat then different combat res.
+1 for a standard
rank bonus is for best number of ranks in a single unit.
+1 for charging if a unit on your side charged.
High ground bonus if you charged from the highest ground.

Other:

1. ASF and ASLast ignore initiative. If you have both, then ignore and go to initiative.
2. Breath weapons are once per game. If a shooting attack, then use flame template. If used in close combat, model inflicts 2D6 automatic hits on single unit in base.
3. Devastating charge: Models with this rule get +1A on the charge.
4. After all troops have deployed including scouts, fast cav can make a 12" move before the game begins.
5. Fast cav can march and shoot.
6. At the start of each close combat round, a unit that is in base contact with one or more enemy models that cause fear must take a leadership test. If test is passed…good. If not, all models in the unit have WS1 for that round of combat.
7. Fight in extra ranks. – Troops with this rule can use an extra rank if they did not charge. Hordes with this rule will fight in 4 ranks.
8. Enemies with flaming attacks cause fear in war beasts, cav, chariots.
9. Frenzy troops don't have to charge if they pass a Ld test.
10. Some flyers will have the Hover rule. No marching for them.
11. Some shooting attacks will get to "Ignore Cover."
12. There is killing blow and Heroic Killing Blow. The heroic version will kill anything, including dragons.
13. Models with Stomp rule get ASL for that attack. It is 1 auto hit. Thunderstomp is D6 auto hits.

Monstrous Infantry:
1. 3 models for ranks. Get the Stomp rule. Monstrous Infantry in the second rank can use attacks in the profile up to 3 instead of the usual one.

Cavalry:
1. Get swiftstride rule for charge and flee. Roll 3D6, discard lowest and add movement. Second rank riders can attack not the mount.
2. If rider or mount have Frenzy, then the whole model is subject to Berserk Rage, but only the element with Frenzy gets the extra attack.
Monstrous Cavalry:
Like cav only bigger. Need 3 models for rank. Six frontage makes a horde.
Warbeasts are things like hounds.
Monstrous Beasts get stomp. Ex. Great eagle
Monsters get Thunderstomp.
Chariots: No change that I can see.

Hand weapon and Shield. NO LONGER A +1 to armor save. Is now a 6+ ward. Can't be used by frenzy.

Musicians: Normal stuff. Added Swift reform. A unit that is not fleeing and not engaged in combat can attempt to make a swift reform. Take a Ld test. Fail, do reform as normal. If pass, then reform and take a normal move, not a march.

Characters can move to the fighting rank from anywhere in the unit before combat begins.

War machine crew that panic due to destroyed friends, etc do not abandon the gun. They simply cannot shoot in the next shooting phase.

Any models touched by war machine templates are hit. Shows example of 5x4 unit on 20mm bases. Template is centered on middle guy of third row. 18 of 20 models are hit. The one guy under the hole.

Army Comp:

1. Must have General…..duh.
2. Minimum 3 units.
3. 25% can spend on Lords.
4. 25% can spend on Heroes.
5. 25% on Core.
6. Up to 50% on Special.
7. Up to 25% on rare.
8. Army cannot contain more than 3 special choices of the same type and 2 rare choices of the same type.
9. In a "Grand Army" (3000+ pts) up to 6 duplicate specials and 4 duplicate rare.

Then 6 scenarios (versions of pitched battle according to them.) Then 350 pages of fluff and `Eavy Metal.

I think I'm buying the rulebook, the flame and explosion templates, and the magic cards. I love magic cards! I still have the magic suplement from 5th ed with all the cards for spells and magi items :_D

One of the more awesome things.

Light (Fast) Cavalry get to make a move before the game begins (might be 12" might be their M value, can't remember).

I did play a game, my Wood Elves against Beastmen. I must say, that the new rules favour me a lot. Striking in Init order means I can take a charge, and can nicely cut through troops. Firing in two ranks means I have very maneuverable units that pack a punch as well. Not to mention, that fear is pretty darn good. The only thing that's really REALLY changed is magic.

Magic is now very powerful, but hurts a ton more. Also, you need a few wizards, or a few spells to make it worth it. Because in smaller games the 2D6 power dice is overkill as you probably only want to role 3 or 2 dice at once to minimise your chances of a double 6 or 1! Which will crush your wizard into pulp. However, you opponant always gets to role all his dispell dice with no repercussions for doubles.

Karon: Thanks for that! I was waffleing on getting the big book and waiting on the starter set, but dammit! Now I want to play as soon as possible.

kanelom wrote:yeah i got out of WFB because playing dwarves was so. so. dull. I picked up an AoBR set and haven't looked back, until now. Still want to sell my 2k dwarves but WFB is looking interesting again..

don't know much about dwarves so I don't know what models are old but they are due for an update soon, so possibly the next (though ogres, are more than likely next)

Didn't get a chance to look at it yet, can anyone please answer:

1) Do great weapons give you the ability to strike in an extra rank (like spears)?

2) Does ASF + higher initiative than opponent give a reroll of attacks (as a previous rumor stated)? Does this still occur if ASF + GW?

3) Are there any limitations on Lord/Hero? Ie can you take 3 dreadlords in 2k or 10 dragonslayers in 2k, or the multiple goblin hero examples if you wanted, etc? Are the only restrictions %point of army or do the previous lord/hero slots also apply?

4) Any news on whether characters that count as a lord and hero choice will get a clarification as to what points of their value will be lord/hero? Ie the 505 point dwarf runelord sc on AoD, is he still only lord, or would the anvil apply to hero %?

Thanks

Thank you VERY much, Karon!

Pre-ordering today!

::waves at Odominus::

Light cavalry marching and shooting. Pistoleers are probably a bit more buffed now.

ZF-

Raon wrote:Didn't get a chance to look at it yet, can anyone please answer:

1) Do great weapons give you the ability to strike in an extra rank (like spears)?

2) Does ASF + higher initiative than opponent give a reroll of attacks (as a previous rumor stated)? Does this still occur if ASF + GW?

3) Are there any limitations on Lord/Hero? Ie can you take 3 dreadlords in 2k or 10 dragonslayers in 2k, or the multiple goblin hero examples if you wanted, etc? Are the only restrictions %point of army or do the previous lord/hero slots also apply?

4) Any news on whether characters that count as a lord and hero choice will get a clarification as to what points of their value will be lord/hero? Ie the 505 point dwarf runelord sc on AoD, is he still only lord, or would the anvil apply to hero %?

Thanks

1) No. Great weapons are +2S and strike last. Your second rank gets to make support attacks regardless of your equipment.
2) Yes. Nothing in the weapons rules indicates that GW would change that.
3) The only restrictions on Lords are that you cannot spent more than 25% of your points on them; ditto for heroes.
4) No. That is, no, there is no clarification; wait for the Dwarf PDF.

Obviously, a lot of the army books as currently written have problems integrating with this new edition. I can only hope the PDF release will address those problems. For example, the Dark Elf magic rules (allowing a caster to use extra dice) are now moot. And I can't decide if Gut Magic just got a lot better, or a lot worse. Aiso, currently we have no way of knowing which new rules, like Longstride and Swiftstride, apply to which units.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Some new information on the Updates, Erratas and FAQ.

Army Book Updates will be available from Launch Day online. They do not however, include updated Magic Lores.

Overall FAQ to be compiled, and released (hopefully) around two weeks after launch day.

GRRRRR!

Well, really glad we kept our GT on the 24th 7th edition. The tourney on the 11th got a bit more chaotic. What the hell! How hard is it to put out the FAQ with the errata and the new book at the same time?

Having trouble loading the pixels one by one into the website?

Man, I hope I'll be able to pick up a cheap copy of the boxed set mini rulebook again this time. $75 for the rules is just way out of my price range.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Army Book Updates will be available from Launch Day online. They do not however, include updated Magic Lores.

I'm not sure what you mean by this? If the army book updates are being put online, they must refer to the army-specific lores (such as for wood elves, the lore of athel loren). I can't imagine this being held until the general FAQ for the rulebook being released two weeks later- it just wouldn't make any sense.

Mikhaila- you don't like the special terrain effects? I thought the wood effects were hilarious and cool! Definitely planning on using them, at least for fun games!

fellblade wrote:

Raon wrote:

2) Does ASF + higher initiative than opponent give a reroll of attacks (as a previous rumor stated)? Does this still occur if ASF + GW?

2) Yes. Nothing in the weapons rules indicates that GW would change that.

From what I remember reading, GWs now confer the rule "always strikes last." If you have a GW and ASF, then you have ASL and ASF and they cancel out. You are now just a normal person in initiative order. So no rerolls.


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lunarman wrote: Because in smaller games the 2D6 power dice is overkill as you probably only want to role 3 or 2 dice at once to minimise your chances of a double 6 or 1! Which will crush your wizard into pulp. However, you opponant always gets to role all his dispell dice with no repercussions for doubles.

I flipped through Magic relatively quick, but the way I was reading it, a double 1 wasn't bad or a miscast, as long as there were other dice. So if you threw 6 dice at a spell, you would only miscast if you have double 6's (after the IF). The way I thought it was worded was that a natural 1 or 2 total die roll meant you "lost concentration" and that wizard could not cast any more spells. But still not a miscast.

The ramifications of this are relatively huge. You'd be able to throw max dice at a particular spell knowing that it has a very good chance of going off (even if you risk losing the wizard if you get IF/miscast).

Can anyone confirm my understanding?

Dispel Scrolls appear to be one per army, the same as other magic items, so no more scroll caddies.

Yes, you only miscast on a double 6, which also casts the spell with irresistible force. So you have a good chance of it going off if you throw max dice at it (which I think are 6?), but maybe blowing up your wizard, too.

This is exactly what I did in the demo game yesterday . And it paid off, too!

Seriously the magic phase is overpowered now. Those college lores are so out of control I'm excited to see how stupid the army book spells are going to be.

With all the extra pages, are there rules for siege, skirmish, or sea battles? Or any other variety of game?

Overrall - I like the book, although it is definately going to take some getting used to and some retooling of my current armies. I would say though before anyone jumps to BIG conclusions, that the army book erratas will be very important as we'll have to see how the changes are incorporated and what special rules which units/armies get.

Couple of notes that I haven't seen mentioned, focusing more on the magic phase:

1. Bound spells still require power dice to cast, which is going to nerf a bit some particular armies/set ups. Empire War Altar/priests I think will take a hit, as they aren't going to be able to auto-spam a lot of the nastiness folks have gotten used to. Don't have to worry about the miscast table, however - I wonder how they will word the War Altar if the bound spell goes off irresistably? The new rules state the item casting the bound spell crumbles, so would that mean the War Altar goes byebye on an IF?

2. Lore of Metal. Very impressive, especially if your opponent is running great AS. Now how will that Lore affect steam tanks? Technically the way it's written, nothing from lore of metal could hurt a ST, as they don't have a Str value. Definately will need clarification on this one.

3. Lore of Death. Can we say "add any more character sniping spells"? Nasty, just plain nasty. I can just see someone playing against Tomb Kings going for broke first turn, throwing 6 dice at one of those spells, 2d6 hits minus T3, wounding on a 2+ with no AS against the hierophant. Add in extra casting dice on a 5+ for every wound caused? Character killing lore if I ever saw one.

4. Lore of Light seems to be the new IoN lore - every successful casting restores a wound onto unit or character. Wow.

5. Lore of Heavens. I don't know - kinda iffy on this one. Comet can really, really be nasty if you get it off, with 2d6 +1 hits per counter, 2d6" and Str4+1 per counter that can't be dispelled.

6. Lore of Fire. I think this one will probably be the default as normal, as there is such a wide range of spells. Upgradable fireball could be extremely nasty at 3d6 Str 4 hits.

7. Lore of Shadow. Most of it seems to just hurt enemy units with stat reducing, so I'm kind of iffy with this one as well. Steed of Shadows is there though, could still do the slingshot stuff.

8. Lore of Life. Wow some very nice stat boosting abilities. Oh yeah and ignore miscasts on a 2+ spell effect is pretty nice too.

9. Lore of Beasts. Very nice as well, plus -1 to cast on Beastmen units. The uber spell transforming the caster into a model leaves out the question if they take multiple wounds while in the beast form and if they transfer over to the character when they revert back, but still interesting. Can still be dispelled though as a remains in play, so charging the character out of the unit might be dangerous. Str 10 D3 wound hunter spear spell looks pretty good (upgradable version). No more beast cowers - woohoo!

I don't know - just some thoughts I guess. Not being able to duplicate spells except for the signature spell is pretty nice, although needing an unmodified 3 or better will hurt the VC spam casting. Miscast table is pretty darn rough, so throwing 5 or 6 dice at something will be a gamble. Infernal Gateway will be getting off alot more, since your at a +4 to cast and possibly +1 for Tzeentch too (have to see how that one gets errated). Go big or go home I'm thinking with the way the magic phase looks. I will be curious to see if they keep the "Cupped Hands" item from Lizardmen as is, because otherwise I would see every Slann taking it and throwing 6 dice at every spell they could. Double 6 - sure. Annihilate an enemy unit - great. Oh yeah and transfer the miscast on a 2+ to an enemy wizard, most of them causing a Str 10 template on the wizard and the unit? Two for the price of 1!

Re: Bound spells... interesting! I wonder how this affects treemen (who have bound spells they can cast each turn) and other items (like the ring of fury for high elves) that can be cast each turn?

Another thought about that- I thought I'd have to take a wizard to get the 2D6 PD, but can I generate PD if I just have a bound spell on a non-wizard?

I totally forgot to look at bound spells, but being forced to use PD to cast them makes sense- otherwise, a level 4 wizard would automatically dispel any treesinging I did (bound spell power level 3) with just a single dice, since they add their power level (4) to a dispel roll.

Anyone with more info on bound spells and how they're likely to work? Or what's happening with the army-specific lores?

RiTides wrote:Yes, you only miscast on a double 6, which also casts the spell with irresistible force. So you have a good chance of it going off if you throw max dice at it (which I think are 6?), but maybe blowing up your wizard, too.

This is exactly what I did in the demo game yesterday . And it paid off, too!

Imagin lord kroaks massive spell now. Or even just one of the massive rulebook spells with normal slann with cupped hands of the old ones.

Bound spells are like this:

You take as many power dice as you want, and you roll to beat the bound power level of the spell. If you roll a 1 or a 2 naturally in total, I believe you can't cast any more bound spells that turn.

If you roll two 6's, then it is cast with irresistible force and also miscasts. A miscast means the item is destroyed. If you cast a bound spell like a warrior priest, two 6's means you have now forgotten the spell.

So for Treeman, you would forget treesinging. For the item that casts every turn, you lose the item.

Bound items do not channel (so no chance to gain additional die).

Yeah the Cupped Hands will be broken unless they faq it in some way I can't think of right now. It's not a well thought out item in the first place and now the Slann gets the IF AND the enemy takes the miscast which is absurd.

Thanks, Killjoy. So can you still generate 2D6 PD just to use bound spells (with no dedicated wizard in the army)?

Also, I take it to stop it, the opponent has to beat the number you rolled, not the power level of the bound spell?

RiTides wrote:Thanks, Killjoy. So can you still generate 2D6 PD just to use bound spells (with no dedicated wizard in the army)?

Also, I take it to stop it, the opponent has to beat the number you rolled, not the power level of the bound spell?

Correct on both counts. From what I remember (which I keep saying... I have a good memory, but I only got about 45 minutes with it in my grubby hands before the GW guy started standing right beside me making stupid jokes and I couldn't take it anymore), the current player generates 2d6 power dice no matter what and the non-current player gets the lower d6 in dispel no matter what. Even if you have no wizards, etc. That's similar to how in 7th, you get 2 power and dispel dice no matter what.

To stop a bound spell, you have to equal or exceed the total actually rolled. So it gives bound spells a lot more flexibility where you can throw more dice at the spell if you need it to go off (risk/reward with the Irresistible too).

The only slightly weird thing is, as currently written and costed, high level bound spells are much more powerful and expensive (ie a bound item at level 5 typically costs more and is more powerful than one at level 2). But now, a high base level is essentially only a drawback. The red shirt tried to explain it as "well, it is a more powerful spell, so harder to cast" which makes some sense. But I think you'll see low-cost bound spells being more value point-wise and high-cost bound spells being less value.

Excellent info. Thanks!

It sounds like we both had about the same amount of time with the book. You, however, seem to remember rather more than I do

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Thank you VERY much, Karon!

Pre-ordering today!

::waves at Odominus::

Hey Holmes

Btw, the book is at the store..

Well I was focused. I had an idea of which areas I wanted to check on and went straight to them. Spent most of my time on magic and on the new special rules. (No time with the fluff or scenarios or terrain like some other people


One thing I only got to at the end was the new categories of types (ie monstrous cavalry vs monster vs beasts). I don't have a good feel on each of them and what special rules attach. I will be heading back down on Saturday and posting a summary after (unless anyone can write up a good one themselves).

Any other areas people are questionable on?

I'm very happy that they are very specifically categorizing models into types. Having a generic "monster" class that was up to interpretation (the rulebook has a picture of a Slann as the example) was terrible.

eimaj wrote:With all the extra pages, are there rules for siege, skirmish, or sea battles? Or any other variety of game?

The only included variation is Legendary Battles.

And I guess Allied Armies rules to an extent.

Yes, I think the categories hit the nail on the head . It seems to me they've changed a lot of things that people didn't like, and for the better. Who says GW doesn't listen at least in this case, they hit a home run, imho!

I agree, it gets rid of the unit strength issues. I did mention that they've categorized every unit for every army in the back of the BRB right?

Also explains why they were fuzzy on unit strength for last couple of army books. They knew it was going away! Hehe.

I don't like it in that it requires more rules. I don't like it in 40k (ok this guy is a ___ which means he can x, y and z, now let me look up those rules, oh except for this exception, etc etc). But it makes a cleaner ruleset overall so I'm ok.

Thanks for the previous info.

1. Does each unit get +1 cr for charging if multiple units charge a larger unit?

2. Is the rumor true that the high elves have no special or rare restrictions beyond points %? So one could take 10 great eagles or 5 repeater bolt throwers in 2k?

3. Any mention of specials/rares that were previously 2 for 1 slot? Can dwarves still take 8 bolt throwers in 2k or DE 4 reapers in 2k or is everyone stuck with the 3 special 2rare of each only rule besides HE?

1. Kind of. If I overrun a unit, contact yours, and you counter charge, then they cancel out. If you add another one, then you gets it.

2. No. Nothing in the book about it anyways, might be in the PDF Update. Who knows?

3. If you have a 2 for 1 slot, then the slot, not the quantity, is defining the triple or double.

Just a response to a comment last page: Fast Cav can march and shoot now. It's not a rule change.

out of curiosity, how does this all affect ogre kingdoms overall? i've always wanted to make an army of them as my first fantasy force because of the cool models (ogres with cannons!) and the low model count (painting is fun but time is limited) but the fantasy rules kept me from playing (didn't like them in all the demo games i tried). it seems like monstrous infantry get a few bonus so would i be accused of jumping on the ogre bandwagon by getting in now?

I doubt there will be a bandwagon, but they are certainly better. Top tier? Still seems unlikely, not until they get a new army book.

Oh there's a Bandwagon! Very popular in terms of speculative new armies!

Will this bandwagon be like the old Empire War Wagon?

Biggerer. It needs to fit Ogres, not weedy Thinlings!

You're right, even if only a few people on it, it necessarily would have to be a very large bandwagon.

Can anyone recall what unit type Scorpions will be?

Monsters I guess due to the base size. Don't have book to hand to check.

Yet.

Curious about the Horde rule thingy.. so, it's for little models.. would ranked skinks benefit from it? And what about ranked skinks with Kroxigors in the unit too?

One quick question. I bought the 7th ed rulebook around 4 months ago and as such i'm disinclined to buy the new rulebook (spending more money for essentially the same type of book - just upgraded) especially since it is more expensive.

Is it worth the jacked up price to buy the new rulebook considering my situation?

Very much worth it. Lots and lots of changes in it.


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And dude....£10 more for twice the pages, all in colour? Hardly jacked up.

I'm hoping I can get my FLGS, the one about 5 minutes from my house, to convince their Distributor to give them a copy. I'm the only person who plays in my town so I can just grab the book and read it. Hopefully this works.

lord marcus wrote:One quick question. I bought the 7th ed rulebook around 4 months ago and as such i'm disinclined to buy the new rulebook (spending more money for essentially the same type of book - just upgraded) especially since it is more expensive.

Is it worth the jacked up price to buy the new rulebook considering my situation?

You know you may be able to complain and get a discount or refund (depending on the state of the book). After all I think most people here on Dakka have known since at least Christmas that 8th was on the way. Seems a bit wrong you weren't warned about the change.

After all this is the same company that gave me a complete baneblade when i said i was missing a sprew (airfix just give you the sprew). End of the day you won't know unless you ask.

Oh, another new rule. It is now very clear what order in which units take casualties. You take rank and file, then musicians, then standard bearer, then champion.

I know we had a reasonably long YMTC about this, so it was nice to have it clearly spelled out.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Very much worth it. Lots and lots of changes in it.


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And dude....£10 more for twice the pages, all in colour? Hardly jacked up.

When your a poor student that $20 US could mean a goodly amount of food.

More interesting not-mentioned things from the new rulebook:

You can rally if you are below 25% if you roll double 1's.

They cleared up how higher ground works

You no longer gain victory points for table quarters

You no longer gain victory points for half-scoring a unit.

Characters riding monsters can no longer join units (Bye-bye EoTG in a Saurus block)

If a unit with a standard breaks, they lose a model (IE a 20 man block with full command breaks without taking a casaulty. They lose the standard bearer model, leaving 19 models)

BSB is now ALL leadership tests.

All forests and rivers are mysterious terrain so 5/6 of them are weird in some range and you don't know what unit you enter it. (Stupid)

If you have multiple units charging an enemy unit, you still only get a total of +1 CR, not a +1 CR for each unit.

Skyth....Terrain rules are optional matey. Don't like it? Don't use it. Don't like some of them? Alter the table to suit.

skyth wrote:

If a unit with a standard breaks, they lose a model (IE a 20 man block with full command breaks without taking a casaulty. They lose the standard bearer model, leaving 19 models)

When I read that section, what you describe above was my impression too. But I talked it over with my buddy and the red shirt with the rulebook there and I think they pointed out a sentence further down that indicates you replace the SB model with a regular model. So I don't think you actually lose the model.

You replace him the front rank with a rank and file model, but it comes from the rear ranks.

worth it? sooooo worth it, even for a hungry student.
$20 is just 18 McDonalds hamburgers less in your life. : )

did anyone see the dwarf air ship rules on pg 425? very cool.

Can anyone with a good memory illuminate me about a few things?

How do the following special rules work in the new game?

Fear
Terror
Hatred

What are the requirements for counting as a scoring unit in the missions?

Can someone explain to me the effects of standard bearers, champions and musicians? I remember that units with musicians can move after they reform if they pass an LD test, but can they shoot as well, and can they march?

Thanks.

Fear: Enemy take a test every combat phase. If failed, they become WS1.

Terror. Can't remember!

Hatred : Exactly as is, barring no compulsory pursuit/overrun.

His Master's Voice wrote:

RiTides wrote:I'm not a fan of skulls, so no counters, range set or dice for me.

So where do you keep your wits?

I reckon RiTides is a pretty sussed dude, so he keeps his wits about him!


Am only on page 4 so far but would like to know if there is a cat in Hades chance that the new Magic Cards are the same as the old set please?
I was given some earlier this year.
I rather suspect the answer will be nay but I live in hope

Anyone get the feeling that undead are a tad overpriced now? Fear won't break anyone and large living infantry units are stubborn on their general's leadership, meaning more reliable than expensive Skeletons who lose models per each combat resolution point lost. Add to that the fact that large infantry units will kill a lot more undead models than before because they have more models attacking and the VC might actually be in trouble.

I hope they get a special rule that they can have multiples of the same spell in their army. The fact that the Vampire Lord can't cast during the phase he's failed any spell is already hurting enough.

Fear: Enemy take a test every combat phase. If failed, they become WS1.

Terror. Can't remember!

Hatred : Exactly as is, barring no compulsory pursuit/overrun.

Thanks. My Dark Elves will be happy to hear this.

So what about the scoring units? Is there some requirement on how many models you need to have in the unit or what?

Haven't read that bit yet!


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Oh, and Breath weapons can be used in HTH (2D6 hits at S) but Breath Weapons can only be used once per game!

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Am only on page 4 so far but would like to know if there is a cat in Hades chance that the new Magic Cards are the same as the old set please?
I was given some earlier this year.
I rather suspect the answer will be nay but I live in hope

No chance of them being the same, unfortunately! All of the magic lores have changed... sorry to be the one to break the news, but I guess you won't see this for a day or so anyway while you read the rest of the thread

What's this talk of scoring units? I saw absolutely nothing about that, anywhere in the front section of the book (including the six "Battles" that were listed) although admittedly, I didn't have all the time in the world. Are you referring to the scenarios in the back of the book?

Odd. Can't see RiTides post on here...

So a Hydra will attack 7 times with re-rolls from hate, handlers 4 times with re-rolls from hate, then do the thunderstomp D6 hits and all this after it breathed 2D6 S5 hits into combat? One day someone will roll crazy and kill 29 models with one Hydra in one turn.

What's this talk of scoring units? I saw absolutely nothing about that, anywhere in the front section of the book (including the six "Battles" that were listed) although admittedly, I didn't have all the time in the world. Are you referring to the scenarios in the back of the book?

There were lots of rumours regarding what counts as scoring and what doesn't, and I think the latest tidbit was from the scenarios part. Are you saying the six battles that you saw were the main missions and they didn't specify what units can capture objectives, table quarters and what not?

Yes, the posts are delayed in loading in this thread for me, too. Somtimes I only know someone has posted because of the little indicator in the forum index .

I didn't see this in the book:

skyth wrote:Characters riding monsters can no longer join units (Bye-bye EoTG in a Saurus block)

But I wasn't looking for it, either... Would be a bummer; I'm not going to use my noble on great stag and spellweaver on unicorn, anyway, but it would be silly if they can't join a unit of wild riders. Was there a certain base size restriction, or was it any "mounstrous mount"?

Hey, does anyone know about panic? Very important for my Beastmen.

I didn't pay attention to that part, since my army is mostly immune to psychology. I heard conflicting things during the demo game- we were playing it took 25% losses in a single phase like usual, but someone said even a single model could cause it. I don't know which was correct... it also looked like it "spread" like normal in 7th. But again, not something I was looking for very carefully...

So anyone have an answer to this? From my post above that didn't show up at first:
What's this talk of scoring units? I saw absolutely nothing about that, anywhere in the front section of the book (including the six "Battles" that were listed) although admittedly, I didn't have all the time in the world. Are you referring to the scenarios in the back of the book?



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Edit: I posted this part after seeing the post below (in response to it). Interesting that it shows up here

Breath weapons are one-use-only, though, so that's a major deterrent to taking it (or maybe that's what you meant).

Also, thanks for the catch on fast cav from last page- mine don't shoot, so I didn't realize that they could currently march and shoot as well.

Similar to what RT asked, if you have a character on something like a Juggernaut, can they join a unit of infantry still? Or Cavalry?

BTW: Who thinks we're going to start seeing Bret. characters with that breath weapon lance now?

I'm thinking the rumors about "scoring units" are not true. The six standard scenarios use VP's and the mission rules outline what counts as what as far as VP's. Killing the enemy general is like 100vp's, capturing the enemy Battle standard is like 75 vp's or something. I just skimmed looking for anything involving "scoring units" but nothing about objectives in the standard missions. Didn't read the whole book so might have been more missions tucked near the back.

Swarms NEVER block LOS so no "to hit" penalty if shooting at a unit behind a unit of say nurglings or rat swarms or such things as that.

I can't remember all of what I read but keep asking questions. Maybe I can recall some. I intend to give it a better read tomorrow night.

Some of what I have seen in this thread was not exactly how I read it in the book but I will wait to have another read to see if I was the one mistaken.

However I did play a couple of games with the new rules. Both of them took quite a long time but mostly because we had to look up EVERYTHING.
However from those games I have decided to boycott 7th edition as 8th was so much fun. Magic is just random enough. Some turns I have 4 dice due to horrible rolling and once or twice a game you find 10-12 power dice waiting to blow up your enemy. At no point did I feel like the rules were stacked in one sides favour it was just dependant on a bit of luck either way. I could right battle report style posts if people wanted but from my own 2 game perspective 8th edition is a lot of fun.

I noticed in this thread someone asked about this earlier. It states in the rulebook any older army book with a rule "unit ignores penalties for moving through (terrain type)" counts as having strider (terrain type). This does not stop mysterious terrain affects but means things like my treeman and cavalary aren't dieing 1/6 times while getting through the forest. I play wood elves so this was something I looked into. Also I should note in my 2 games my opponents allowed me to pick from lore of beasts or life for my hero level mages because it made for a better experience.

Edit: I forgot to add that in the many pages of pictures (part of the big rulebook is basically the how to paint book) there were some high elf models I have not seen before. Wether these were just conversions or new models I do not know.

Therion wrote:Can anyone with a good memory illuminate me about a few things?

How do the following special rules work in the new game?

Fear

Every round, enemy makes leadership...If they fail they are WS 1 for that round.

Terror

Same as fear except when Terror Causers charge, make leadership test or automatically flee.

Hatred

Same except no required pursue/overrun.

What are the requirements for counting as a scoring unit in the missions?

No requirements. (At least for the 6 pitched battles.) Note though that you no longer get VP's for table quarters.

Can someone explain to me the effects of standard bearers, champions and musicians? I remember that units with musicians can move after they reform if they pass an LD test, but can they shoot as well, and can they march?

On the musicians, yes. Free reform other than they count as moving (So no move or fire weapons). Standards are the same (Except only worth 25 VP's). Champs are the same except you don't randomize for BS shooting if you have less than 5 other models.



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RiTides wrote:Yes, the posts are delayed in loading in this thread for me, too. Somtimes I only know someone has posted because of the little indicator in the forum index .

I didn't see this in the book:

skyth wrote:Characters riding monsters can no longer join units (Bye-bye EoTG in a Saurus block)

But I wasn't looking for it, either... Would be a bummer; I'm not going to use my noble on great stag and spellweaver on unicorn, anyway, but it would be silly if they can't join a unit of wild riders. Was there a certain base size restriction, or was it any "mounstrous mount"?

It was being a 'monster' mount.


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Karon wrote:Hey, does anyone know about panic? Very important for my Beastmen.

Standard for 25% casaulties. Friend (Even a single model) breaking or getting annhilated within 6".

However, BSB allows you to re-roll all leadership tests.