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Post by: Zookie
I am interested to see what is going to happen with Necron codex when it comes out in the next year or so. It got me musing about what is going to change. Here are some wish list things that I think would be interesting. (Note that I have not play tested any of this so I don’t know if any of this would work (It might be a bit over powered)
I would like to see the “undead” theme of the Necrons pushed more in the fluff. I would like to see the Lords and a high ranking Necrons with personalities, who rule over their “undead” brethren. I think you could explore some interesting self-loathing characters driven mad by isolation and lonelness that are jealous of the living but at the same time hating the frailty of life and reveling in uniformity and order of being “dead” (a good fit for the grimdark 40k universe). They could be almost like an anti slaneesh. Instead of seeking sensation, they crusade to free all sentient life from the trappings of living and feeling.
In game terms these are some things I think would be cool and provide some unique character but be a little more stream lined than the old 3rd edition codex.
Give Flayed Ones fleet of foot
I would like to see some new Gauss rules that I think would make pariahs a bit better, but they need some tweaking. Honestly, I like them I just think they cost too much. Maybe knock off 4 or 5 points ought to do it (maybe give them counter charge?).
Sadly I would like the C’tan should go, for there own good. They are too underpowered right now. I think they should be a made much stronger and then moved to Apocalypse games (I think they should be on par with titans).
I would up the cost of Necron units (maybe 20?) but I would give them these new abilities:
Gauss weapons:
All gauss weapons have rending and on the roll of a “6” to wound, normal armor saves are ignored.
New “We’ll be back” rules:
All Necrons have the “feel no pain” rule and if within 12”of a resurrection orb, monolith, or tomb spider a roll of a “1” can be rerolled.
Unstoppable Phalanx Advance:
Fluff explanation: Necrontry millennia ago fought in mass phalanx. A hold over from this is Unstoppable Phalanx Advance program that was build into their machinery when it was first built. When a sufficient amount of Necrons are standing in close order they are able to “link” there soulless minds together and function as one and unseen dark energies flow though the entire formation creating a synergy that provides the Necrons power supply with such an abundance of energy that renders them even more.
Necron units of 10 or more models have form an “Unstoppable Phalanx.” To form this the all models in a unit must be in base-to-base contact with each other and form at least two rows. When in this formation the Necrons function as relentless and are granted a 6+ invulnerable save.
New weapon:
Gauss Flooder
Fluff explanation: Designed to combat large groups of weak enemies, it is essentially a gauss rifle with the focusing mechanism removed. When fired the raw gauss energies let loose like errant lighting in a general direction until they dissipate. The lack of the focusing mechanism means the less damage is done to a specific target but the energy covers a wider field.
Assault 1 S 3 AP 5 Template “Gauss”
(I am thinking that up to half a Warrior squad could carry these as no additional cost.
New Unit:
To fill the hole left by removing the C’tan I would like to see a new HQ called “Necromancers”
Necromancers would be like Necron Lords but would have deep knowledge of the most vile Necron technology. I would make them weaker then Lords offensively but just as tough on the defense and make them on foot only and given them the following abilities:
Arise from the dust:
Any Necron unit that deepstrikes within 12 inches of a Necromancer does not scatter.
Darkness falls:
A psychic power in game term (not a true psychic power in the sense of other races but a bizarre power the necrons have that is not full understood and the necrons don’t feel the need to explain themselves.) Range of 24” affected units stuck by this power will treat there next shooting phase as if it was night fighting rules.
Rise up and join your new master!:
Fluff explanation: Necron Necromancers have a strange ability to animate corpse. How this is done is not fully understood to anyone save the Necron themselves. The Ordo Xenos theorize advance nanotechnology and Ordo Malos makes claims ranging from Chaos pacts to black magic. All agree that this ability is one of the Necron’s most terrifying weapons
Any model without and armor value that is killed within 12” of a necromancer with become an “abomination” model on the roll of a 3+ the model must be placed in squad coherency with the necromancer (the necromancer my leave the unit in the movement phase the player wishes and the abominations from the pervious round become there own unit.
Abomination stats:
WS2 BS0 S3 T4(3) I1 A1 Ld1 As –
Abilities:
Feels no pain (but not effected my Necron bonuses such as resection orbs)
Always moves as if in difficult terrain.
Fearless
Fluff explanation/copout:
I would be too hard to keep track of models with different stats so the fluff would explain that the Abomination is a shell of its former self and has been altered by the process of reanimation to its current state. (From a practical point a view you could use any model you want for an Abomination (preferably a model from armies you play against frequently) you would just covert them to look “zombified”. In a fantasy world were GW did something like this they could sell a bit conversion box that you could turn the models of your choice into Abominations.
Well these are my ideas, what do you think? What would you like to see in the new necron codex?
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Post by: SweetLou
no no no i dont want my armys uniqueness to be a army of plaquemarines, fnp is not the solution
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Post by: Kevin949
I agree with giving flayed ones fleet. That's about it.
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Post by: Pvt. Jet
Agreed. WBB is what makes Necrons unique. I say keep that as is. Necrons should be able to get other upgrades to make them cost effective, or at least not so terrible in melee one or two assault units can phase you out.
Me? I just REALLY want to see the Necrons take up more than 2 pages in the Citadel Catalog. It's ridiculous! They need much, much, much more variety.
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Post by: Captain_Trips01
Most of that was actually pretty good, but I think WBB needs to stay, jsut be streamlined/clarified a small bit.
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Post by: somecallmeJack
actually, I agree on the C'tan thing.
I think the abominations might be a bit underpowered though
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Post by: grayspark
I hate how all these fandexs seem to be making races that are supposed to be unique, although albeit older races, into the same as the ones that are supposed to be conventional armies.
Aka every single squad having a sergeant and a heavy weapon and a load of other "cliche" units.
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Post by: Mr. Foxy
I'd honestly like to see a few things-
Fearless- For God's sake, Melee for a Necron is *Censored*! At least give the Buggers a fighting chance!
Phase Out- Perhaps put it down to an unmodified Leadership test once the force is below 25%, instead of instantly.
Another Vehicle or Two- 'nuff said.
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Post by: Mr Morden
a bit more variety would be nice - there are several fluff pieces or BL images of other Necron War Machines.
soo a couple more speclaised units that have been reactivated and a war machine or two........
C'Tan for Appoclypse would be good
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Post by: 4M2A
I don't play necrons but I have seen them play and I think a good way to give them some power without loosing the flavour would be to allow necron warrior units to combine fire. Basically if they fire their Gauss like this they get 1 shot at S1+1strength for every necron combining fire.. I have always imagined necrons being able to bring down large targets with massed fire.
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Post by: focusedfire
@Zookie-I like the direction your taking with this.
Here are a few critiques and comments on your ideas that are purely ( IMO).
1) Like your Crusade to free the living from their flesh, perspective. Gives the Necrons flavor.
2) On the fence about the Flayed Ones having Fleet.
3) Just giving the Pariahs FnP when combined with the rumored reducing/removal of phase out will make them worth every point.
4) Agree about the C'tan becoming Apoc units
5) Not enough information to venture guesses on Necron Warrior cost.
6) I Like the Guass Glancing rule as is for the Blaster and Flayer. Maybe make the Cannons rending.
7) Your on the right track with the new WBB Rule but remove the need for the Resurection Orb. Orb should awaken units, not keep them on the field.
8) Unstoppable Phalanx Advance needs work. Don't have clear idea of changes but it needs adjusting.
9) Don't like the Guass Flooder. Doesn't fit for some reason.
10) About diversity of units. Of units is good, in units is wrong for the Necrons. IMO, Warriors need to be row after row of the same roboty goodness.
11 )Necromancer abilities need to become Lord specific.
a)Do away with the Necromancer and instead it becomes a Special rule for one of the Lords.
b)Maybe Have a Technomancer rule for the Destroyer lord.
c)Arise from the Dust is a general ability that all Lords get
d)Darkness is a big no because of how powerful switching to FnP will make them. I can only see this tye of ability being tied into the monoliths where only infantry and Jet-bike units are covered by this ability
12)I really like some parts of the Necromaners Abomination rule but others need changing.
a) Change the effect where it happens on a roll of a six.
b) Limit to 6" range.
c) Limit movement immediately after creation(Unit has gone to ground in order for the models to be reborn as undead)
d) Forms a unit with the necromancer(He may not leave them)
e) Instead of the Abomination you get a flayed ones model(Keeps poeple from getting upset at their model becoming yours in-game)
Now to what some other posters have said.
SweetLou wrote:no no no i dont want my armys uniqueness to be a army of plaquemarines, fnp is not the solution
When I first heard the rumor about WBB being replaced months ago, I had this same reaction. Then I went through the rules again and found that FnP is more powerful than WBB while not being nearly as complex or confusing(for some  ) to use.
Pvt. Jet wrote:Agreed. WBB is what makes Necrons unique. I say keep that as is. Necrons should be able to get other upgrades to make them cost effective, or at least not so terrible in melee one or two assault units can phase you out.
Me? I just REALLY want to see the Necrons take up more than 2 pages in the Citadel Catalog. It's ridiculous! They need much, much, much more variety.
Take a closer look at WBB vs FnP. Necron units get back up at the beginning of the players turn, which makes the unit more vulnerable to a Shooting then assault combo. It also means that there will be more necrons to swing back in HtH.
I agree about more units, current rumors strongly indicate that GW has been listening.
Captain_Trips01 wrote:Most of that was actually pretty good, but I think WBB needs to stay, jsut be streamlined/clarified a small bit.
FnP is a major boost for the Necrons. It will probably be listed under a WBB chapter heading but the rule will change a a means of making the Necrons tougher in HtH.
grayspark wrote:I hate how all these fandexs seem to be making races that are supposed to be unique, although albeit older races, into the same as the ones that are supposed to be conventional armies.
Aka every single squad having a sergeant and a heavy weapon and a load of other "cliche" units.
People are just following the path/format that GW has stated that they are switching to. Makes the Fan-dex easier to use if it has a familiar format.
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Post by: Kevin949
FNP is a weaker WBB and even with it's drawbacks, I like WBB more than FNP.
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Post by: focusedfire
@ Kevin-How is FnP weaker?
They both work in the same manner except WBB has your guys fall over and not roll to get back up until the start of your next turn which means that these models affect close combat with a negative morale modifier. FnP lets you make the roll(the same roll of 4+ I might add) during the assault phase. This means less casualties and less nrgatives during combat resolution.
Also, Models with FnP also do not have to be within 6" of another model of the same type in order to roll.
If your thinking about Instant death, the same rumours about WBB changing to FnP also state that lords and such will get Eternal warrior.
Pls, Go back and read both rules. Then give a substantiated argument to your claim.
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Post by: kartofelkopf
FNP is hands-down better. Rules wise, it's simpler. Fluff wise, it's identical. Just imagine them reassembling themselves a phase or two earlier. And play wise... wow. FNP is so much better- less likely to have to take morale checks (as with FNP you'll take fewer causalities) and this will also help TREMENDOUSLY with HtH where Necrons currently get ripped a new one on a regular basis.
The only possible drawbacks will be if they don't allow the Rez Orb to ignore the restrictions on FNP (AP1/2, PW, ID)... but, given that that's what it does right now, I doubt they'd change that; and being able to teleport through the monolith for a second re-roll on WBB-- but, again, that's something they could replicate with a special rule for the monolith.
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Post by: grayspark
For their "main weapon", the Gauss Flayer, or rifle, or whatever it is? I've always thought that how the fluff describes it, it should be Str 5 AP 4 Assault 1 18" (12"?).
What about you guys?
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Post by: Shas'O Dorian
Giving almost every gun rending is OP, though I do like the Flayed ones having fleet.
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Post by: Kevin949
focusedfire wrote:@ Kevin-How is FnP weaker?
They both work in the same manner except WBB has your guys fall over and not roll to get back up until the start of your next turn which means that these models affect close combat with a negative morale modifier. FnP lets you make the roll(the same roll of 4+ I might add) during the assault phase. This means less casualties and less nrgatives during combat resolution.
Also, Models with FnP also do not have to be within 6" of another model of the same type in order to roll.
If your thinking about Instant death, the same rumours about WBB changing to FnP also state that lords and such will get Eternal warrior.
Pls, Go back and read both rules. Then give a substantiated argument to your claim.
WBB is not affected by AP at all.
As for lords getting eternal warrior, it doesn't matter as Instant death attacks still negate FNP. As stated in the rulebook, "this ability cannot be used against wounds from weapons that inflict instant death (by having a high enough strength or a special rule to that effect; even if the model is an eternal warrior"
So no, FNP is not superior to WBB.
As for the 6" rule, that's really moot unless the entire squad got wiped out and a smart necron player would have a spyder nearby or another unit nearby just in case.
Automatically Appended Next Post: kartofelkopf wrote:FNP is hands-down better. Rules wise, it's simpler. Fluff wise, it's identical. Just imagine them reassembling themselves a phase or two earlier. And play wise... wow. FNP is so much better- less likely to have to take morale checks (as with FNP you'll take fewer causalities) and this will also help TREMENDOUSLY with HtH where Necrons currently get ripped a new one on a regular basis.
The only possible drawbacks will be if they don't allow the Rez Orb to ignore the restrictions on FNP (AP1/2, PW, ID)... but, given that that's what it does right now, I doubt they'd change that; and being able to teleport through the monolith for a second re-roll on WBB-- but, again, that's something they could replicate with a special rule for the monolith.
See my post above and realize you're incorrect in FNP being better.
Giving necrons "stubborn" would be MUCH more beneficial than FNP. Automatically Appended Next Post: Shas'O Dorian wrote:Giving almost every gun rending is OP, though I do like the Flayed ones having fleet.
flayed one should have rending, wraiths should have power weapons.
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Post by: focusedfire
Kevin949 wrote:WBB is not affected by AP at all.
As for lords getting eternal warrior, it doesn't matter as Instant death attacks still negate FNP. As stated in the rulebook, "this ability cannot be used against wounds from weapons that inflict instant death (by having a high enough strength or a special rule to that effect; even if the model is an eternal warrior"
So no, FNP is not superior to WBB.
As for the 6" rule, that's really moot unless the entire squad got wiped out and a smart necron player would have a spyder nearby or another unit nearby just in case.
( FnP=vulnerable to the most expensive class of ranged weapons) => ( Wbb=extra morale checks and auto lose in HtH)
Eternal warrior prevents lord from losing all wounds from a single shot, something WBB does not do.
FnP does not require another model or a Tomb Spyder nearby to use. 4th ed Necrons is where I earned the focusedfire tag I go by. I made sure that a unit wasn't getting back up after my turn ended.
In 5th ed, I've used Tau in assault to pull units away so that units that I shot off of objectives couldn't get back up and I make sure that Tomb Spyders don't live past turn three.
FnP Necrons are superior to WBB. Try playtesting it, you will be suprised.
kartofelkopf wrote:See my post above and realize you're incorrect in FNP being better.
Giving necrons "stubborn" would be MUCH more beneficial than FNP.
Whose to say they won't get both?
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Post by: Kevin949
Eternal warrior has no bearing on WBB or FNP, it's a completely different rule and I don't know why you brought it up. But FYI, if the current lord was eternal warrior then WBB would still be superior because if an ID attack took out his last wound he'd still get WBB unless it was double the toughness, which you can't do on a destroyer body if you opted for that gear.
You played bad necron players then if they didn't know how to properly maneuver their units to limit focus firing.
No, I won't playtest it because plasma would destroy and the reason necrons lose in CC is because of power weapons or other CC attacks that ignore armor, which FNP wouldn't help against either.
Never said they wouldn't get both, but personally I don't want necrons to have FNP. Maybe give it to pariahs only, in their current form, but as a whole army I don't think they should have it.
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Post by: mrwittwer
grayspark wrote:For their "main weapon", the Gauss Flayer, or rifle, or whatever it is? I've always thought that how the fluff describes it, it should be Str 5 AP 4 Assault 1 18" (12"?).
What about you guys?
I always thought this too.
Ive thrown around the idea that necrons should be strength 3 toughness 4 and then upgrade their gun like you have suggested. In the fluff the guns are what was scary, not the necrons themselves. Warriors were never particularly strong just hard to kill.
I also agree with earlier posts that say keep gauss glancing rule on lower weapons and make gauss cannons or higher grade weapons have rending.
I really wanna see a necron walker, i think something awesome could come from that.
BUT, what i really wanna see more than anything is WBB fixed so that sweeping advances dont auto-kill squads and another troop choice.
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Post by: focusedfire
Kevin949 wrote:Eternal warrior has no bearing on WBB or FNP, it's a completely different rule and I don't know why you brought it up. But FYI, if the current lord was eternal warrior then WBB would still be superior because if an ID attack took out his last wound he'd still get WBB unless it was double the toughness, which you can't do on a destroyer body if you opted for that gear.
You played bad necron players then if they didn't know how to properly maneuver their units to limit focus firing.
No, I won't playtest it because plasma would destroy and the reason necrons lose in CC is because of power weapons or other CC attacks that ignore armor, which FNP wouldn't help against either.
Never said they wouldn't get both, but personally I don't want necrons to have FNP. Maybe give it to pariahs only, in their current form, but as a whole army I don't think they should have it.
GW is moving to standardized rules. Your wish for a bastardized mix of old and new is unrealistic and comes across as fan-wishing.
As to why I brought up EW, the current most reliable rumors has the lords getting it with the army(including pariahs) getting FnP. Same rumors talk about Phase out either being gone completely or much harder for your opponent to pull off.
WBB wouldn't be superior because the Lord would be to busy trying to stay within 6" of everywhere to use the res orb. FnP allows the lord to move more freely and offensively.
BTW, you haven't even considered what would happen to the ressurection orb under FnP.
As to the level of player I was facing?  In 4th ed they were Local Tourney winners, in 5th ed these guys still often place. I've watched Gav use his monoliths and Veil to out maneuver experienced Eldar players. So yeah, keep talking smack about players you've never met. It is the thing to do on the internet, I hear.
The fact that I have to explain that having the warriors still standing from the normal wounds with FnP means that a SM tac squad wouldn't just walk over a warrior squad tells me the level of player I'm currently talking to.
From your statement, I take it that you might have a cheap necron army for sale when they come out with FnP. If this is so, then talk to me.
Edit spelling
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Post by: Kevin949
It would be fan-wishing if I was saying what necrons SHOULD get, I'm simply saying I hope they don't get FNP.
I don't care about rumors.
Good for them being local tourney winners, I couldn't care less about any of that. Mostly because it is "local".
You don't have to explain anything to me, you just feel like you have to justify your incorrect belief that FNP is better than WBB. And if a tac squad is walking over warriors, you're doing something horribly wrong. Again, necrons suffer greatly from POWER WEAPONS or similar weapons that ignore armor in CC. FNP or WBB, doesn't matter. It's the combination of how many attacks in CC can ignore armor saves, the combat resolution rules, and how sweeping advance works.
No, I won't be doing that. Don't assume things, you know what that means.
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Post by: Kadros
I believe Necron Warriors are among the best troop choices in the game, they cost a little more than a space marine (which I believe to be the "baseline" for the entire 40k game), drop down to I2 but gain WBB and Gauss Weaponry.
There's a couple problems that plague the entire Necron book. One of which is the lack of transports/proper heavy support (None of this 65 points for a 1 wound/mobile lascannon crap)
Our specialized units could use some more USR's (Wraiths need power weapons/rending, Flayed ones need either Furious Charge/Fleet or Rending, or a combination of the former)
But the big thing in my eyes is the fact that we have no variety in the army. You buy 10 Necron warriors and there's your troop choice. No Power fists, no heavy weapon, no Sergeant no whatever. Just 10 plain-ass Necron Warriors.
Now the obvious "fix" for the Necron book would be to simply give the basic necron warrior more gear options, but this would promote individuality, which the Necrons gave up a long time ago. Therefore without completely re-writing the fluff you can't really patch the necrons up as all "Specialty gear" and or giving them a sergeant equivalent would mean that they retain individuality, which they don't have.
P.S. I'm also in favor of keeping WBB. I realize that in the grand scheme of things FNP might work out to be better but not everything in this game has to be super min/maxed and or standardized there's too many codex marine players as it is
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Post by: focusedfire
Kevin949 wrote:It would be fan-wishing if I was saying what necrons SHOULD get, I'm simply saying I hope they don't get FNP.
I don't care about rumors.
Good for them being local tourney winners, I couldn't care less about any of that. Mostly because it is "local".
You don't have to explain anything to me, you just feel like you have to justify your incorrect belief that FNP is better than WBB. And if a tac squad is walking over warriors, you're doing something horribly wrong. Again, necrons suffer greatly from POWER WEAPONS or similar weapons that ignore armor in CC. FNP or WBB, doesn't matter. It's the combination of how many attacks in CC can ignore armor saves, the combat resolution rules, and how sweeping advance works.
No, I won't be doing that. Don't assume things, you know what that means.
1)Hope and wish are synonyms., maybe you should get a thesuarus if you can't figure out how to use the free online ones.
2)Yet you care about wish-lists? Seems kinda illogical and incosistent, but hey, your just an unkown Joe on the other end of the interwebz. Be as illogical as you want to be.
3) You continue to disparage those you don't know and who are not here to defend themselves. Your bravery is inspiring.
4)Seriously, you've already shown that you are an inexperienced player and your inability to understand the comparison makes you seem like a person unwilling to learn and improve.
In case you haven't been paying attention to the overall direction of the game, most scoring units have a sergeant or an equivalent that is armed with a power weapon while the rest are normal weapons. If you can't figure out how to use teleportation to keep your units away from sterngaurd and Termies then maybe 40K isn't the game for you.
Also, your statement about close combat ignores the hoarde units that can and will swarm your units under with 15+ wounds in a turn. That is 5 necrons down under WBB versus 2.5 under FnP. Those are 2.5 necrons that get their attacks and won't cause additional negative modifiers during combat resolution. This means they are less likely to break and get destroyed because of the I 2.
5) Never said I assumed anything, but you did make the assumption that I had. Were does that leave us?
Edit spelling and seentence structure
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Post by: kartofelkopf
Wow...
So, in HtH, FNP and WBB are identical in when they can be used.... except WBB happens later, so the unit could be overrun or at least lost combat before WBB can happen.
So, point FNP.
At range, WBB can be used against AP1/2 weapons... which is cool, except most ap 1/2 weapons are also s8+ (railgun, meltagun, lascannon, etc...). The only advantage WBB has is against Plasma fire... so... yay, I guess?
Which is a more common sight on the battlefields of 5e 40k? HtH combats, or plasma-heavy armies? Given that EVERYONE runs Melta now, that advantage, limited to begin with, shrinks even further.
This is all really besides the point, as the main issue was the one first addressed-- FNP happens IMMEDIATELY. And, since most people run rez orbs anyways (and assuming they function roughly the same next edition), the sole advantage WBB currently has is lost with an orb around.
Now, also consider the needing a unit within 6" and WBB is still the clear loser.
Why do people oppose change so vehemently?
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Post by: Kevin949
focusedfire wrote:
1)Hope and wish are synonyms., maybe you should get a thesuarus if you can't figure out how to use the free online ones.
2)Yet you care about wish-lists? Seems kinda illogical and incosistent, but hey, your just an unkown Joe on the other end of the interwebz. Be as illogical as you want to be.
3) You continue to disparage those you don't know and who are not here to defend themselves. Your bravery is inspiring.
4)Seriously, you've already shown that you are an inexperienced player and your inability to understand the comparison makes you seem like a person unwilling to learn and improve.
In case you haven't been paying attention to the overall direction of the game, most scoring units have a sergeant or an equivalent that is armed with a power weapon while the rest are normal weapons. If you can't figure out how to use teleportation to keep your units away from sterngaurd and Termies then maybe 40K isn't the game for you.
Also, your statement about close combat ignores the hoarde units that can and will swarm your units under with 15+ wounds in a turn. That is 5 necrons down under WBB versus 2.5 under FnP. Those are 2.5 necrons that get their attacks and won't cause additional negative modifiers during combat resolution. This means they are less likely to break and get destroyed because of the I 2.
5) Never said I assumed anything, but you did make the assumption that I had. Were does that leave us?
Edit spelling and seentence structure
1. Nice way to act like a jackass, great show on your character.
2. Who said I did? You? So I like to read about what others post up on the army I play, so what. I never said I actually cared. Now you're just trying to twist reality to make things seem different from the truth.
3. I don't care one bit about what you said regarding anyone else at all, ever. Nice job hiding behind the common "oh you so tough on the internet" comments though.
4. I'm quite capable, thank you, and pretty sure I have a much better grasp than you seem to think I do but you seem compelled to debase yourself to personal attacks against me. So keep it up, big guy.
CC should always happen on the necrons terms, if it doesn't then your strategy didn't pan out. Happens to all of us.
5. Yes, you did. It was insinuated from you statement.
And since you felt compelled to resort to personal attacks, I find it humorous that you edited for spelling and spelled "spelling" incorrectly.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kartofelkopf wrote:Wow...
So, in HtH, FNP and WBB are identical in when they can be used.... except WBB happens later, so the unit could be overrun or at least lost combat before WBB can happen.
So, point FNP.
At range, WBB can be used against AP1/2 weapons... which is cool, except most ap 1/2 weapons are also s8+ (railgun, meltagun, lascannon, etc...). The only advantage WBB has is against Plasma fire... so... yay, I guess?
Which is a more common sight on the battlefields of 5e 40k? HtH combats, or plasma-heavy armies? Given that EVERYONE runs Melta now, that advantage, limited to begin with, shrinks even further.
This is all really besides the point, as the main issue was the one first addressed-- FNP happens IMMEDIATELY. And, since most people run rez orbs anyways (and assuming they function roughly the same next edition), the sole advantage WBB currently has is lost with an orb around.
Now, also consider the needing a unit within 6" and WBB is still the clear loser.
Why do people oppose change so vehemently?
I don't oppose change, I just don't feel that FNP is the answer. If that's what they end up with, then so be it. It would just be nice if they didn't turn into BA pt. 2.
*Edit*
And with that, I'm out of this conversation. I'm not continuing to debate this with immaturity abound.
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Post by: TyraelVladinhurst
pylon and Obelish in codex with models from launch point. flayed one's as troops, apcolyse units from either GW or FW such as warbarque, abattoir, and the aeonic orb
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Post by: acidchalk
FNP Is not better than WBB. If you knock down all 10 of my warriors, next turn they will get up and rapid fire whatever knocked them down. Also, by giving them FNP you lose out on the reroll AND porting out of combat ability that the monolith gives you, since you can't port someone when a FNP is failed with this mentality. The only thing i can see it helping with is the -LD for dead guys. What will probably be done about that is that they would just give them and they shall know no fear like they had pre-codex i believe....
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Post by: jbunny
The fact that FNP happens right away gives it an advantage over WBB.
Shooting, A ten man Necron squad gets shot and fails 3 saves. With WBB next turn they have a chance to get back up. With FNP they attemp to stay up right away. This could mean the difference having to take a moral test and the chance of fleeing.
Once fleeing a good player will walk you off the board. FNP prevents this form happening.
In close combat, due to lower Int than most units, FNP allows units to 1 fight back and therefore have the chance to cause wounds, and two lowers the number of wounds caused to your side. That could help prevent failing a moral check and being sweeped.
Say 8 models are killed in Close combat, you would be at a -8 on your LD test with WBB. With FNP 4 should stand back up, of those 4 you could an additional wound inflicted, so your new modifer would only be -3.
As far as the comment "Necrons should only be assaulted on your terms" That goes for every army now.
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Post by: acidchalk
Yeah but if they don't fix it and make them either fearless or they shall know no fear then no amount of FNP is going to help necrons in h2h. So if they do fix it then i'd definitely rather WBB as they would just get knocked on to the floor as that is the only way to kill them, which lets them get back up out of h2h and then comes the rapid fire. If they don't then i see FNP being integral.
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Post by: mrwittwer
jbunny wrote:The fact that FNP happens right away gives it an advantage over WBB.
Shooting, A ten man Necron squad gets shot and fails 3 saves. With WBB next turn they have a chance to get back up. With FNP they attemp to stay up right away. This could mean the difference having to take a moral test and the chance of fleeing.
Once fleeing a good player will walk you off the board. FNP prevents this form happening.
In close combat, due to lower Int than most units, FNP allows units to 1 fight back and therefore have the chance to cause wounds, and two lowers the number of wounds caused to your side. That could help prevent failing a moral check and being sweeped.
Say 8 models are killed in Close combat, you would be at a -8 on your LD test with WBB. With FNP 4 should stand back up, of those 4 you could an additional wound inflicted, so your new modifer would only be -3.
As far as the comment "Necrons should only be assaulted on your terms" That goes for every army now.
Necrons dont want to be in CC. They dont want to have extra attacks in CC due to FNP. I dont see how people cant understand this. Necrons in CC are god awful. Failing morale and falling back is better than being slaughtered in CC, at least you have the chance to regroup and as acidchalk stated im sure necrons will have a rule in the new dex that counters the problem of running off the board. PLUS you completely ignore the benefits of getting another WBB with the portal.
My friend plays necrons and his 2500 point ard boyz list runs 3 monoliths and his list rocks at objective based games. You put a monolith and a squad of warriors near an objective and its very hard to kill all of them. This is due to so many WBB rolls with portal.
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Post by: kartofelkopf
That's an idiotic comment. Most of the time when you lose combat, with I2, you will be overrun and killed outright-- no WBB for you.
And as for the poster regarding having all 10 in a squad gunned down-- no WBB if there's not another unit of the same type (or a tomb spyder) within range.
FNP is hands down better. Of course Necrons don't want to be in HtH-- but, it WILL happen, and when it does, FNP is VASTLY superior to WBB.
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Post by: mrwittwer
kartofelkopf wrote:That's an idiotic comment. Most of the time when you lose combat, with I2, you will be overrun and killed outright-- no WBB for you.
And as for the poster regarding having all 10 in a squad gunned down-- no WBB if there's not another unit of the same type (or a tomb spyder) within range.
FNP is hands down better. Of course Necrons don't want to be in HtH-- but, it WILL happen, and when it does, FNP is VASTLY superior to WBB.
Sweeping advance is only a problem in the first round of combat when you are charged. Second round of combat take WBB rolls, portal out, rapid fire and move on. Perfectly legit tactic, just requires maneuvering. Yes, its true, you arent going to win with necrons if you arent good with tactics. Necrons require a lot of planning in advance and this plan has to be flexible and all encompassing. Sounds harder than it really is.
And if you dont have another squad, tombspyder or resorb within range, then thats your fault for not covering all your bases.
FNP is VASTLY inferior to WBB.
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Post by: kartofelkopf
mrwittwer wrote:
Sweeping advance is only a problem in the first only round of combat when you are charged.
FTFY. With Necrons as they stand, you WILL lose combat with just about anything that charges you... and at I2, you will probably be overrun.
So, yes, sweeping advance is only a problem on the turn you're charged... the problem is, it's likely the only turn that unit will see in CC.
FNP is VASTLY inferior to WBB.
Except for all the times it isn't... which is all the time.
The rules are almost identical in their effect- namely, preventing a model from being removed on a 4+. The only major difference is when they are applied- FNP happens immediately, which prevents you from having to take Morale checks against shooting, allows you to swing back in HtH, and lowers the chances of losing a combat.
All the things you cite as an advantage of WBB (porting out of combat and a second roll) are the result of another unit entirely-- the Monolith. If WBB ----> FNP, I imagine the monolith will still affect Necrons in a similar manner. Even if it doesn't, the advantages of FNP (immediacy, lowered number of morale checks, lowered risk of losing combat) outweigh the benefits of WBB (umm... still not sure what they are).
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Post by: focusedfire
Kevin949 wrote:1. Nice way to act like a jackass, great show on your character.
2. Who said I did? You? So I like to read about what others post up on the army I play, so what. I never said I actually cared. Now you're just trying to twist reality to make things seem different from the truth.
3. I don't care one bit about what you said regarding anyone else at all, ever. Nice job hiding behind the common "oh you so tough on the internet" comments though.
4. I'm quite capable, thank you, and pretty sure I have a much better grasp than you seem to think I do but you seem compelled to debase yourself to personal attacks against me. So keep it up, big guy.
CC should always happen on the necrons terms, if it doesn't then your strategy didn't pan out. Happens to all of us.
5. Yes, you did. It was insinuated from you statement.
And since you felt compelled to resort to personal attacks, I find it humorous that you edited for spelling and spelled "spelling" incorrectly.
1)Personal name calling is a direct violation of Dakkas policy on conduct. Note- I am letting this slide because I never hit the mod button, but there are others who may. you might want to watch out unless you get yourself into trouble.
2)Your actions speak for you. If you didn't care you would't have so meticulously replied to my posts point for point. Your posts seem to indicate a certain level of caring and emotional investment. To me, your comments are coming across as net rage because only anger would blind someone so thouroughly to the advantages of the proposed change.
3)I'm not hiding, I'll be right here to call you on it, anytime you want to trash talk those I know and you don't. What I don't know is you as a credible source of information other than the statements made in your posts have shown.
4) What personal attacks? My replies have been based upon your statements of the problems with a switch to FnP. The unit matchups you mentioned would indicate a certain level of tactical inexperience. Again, your post comes across as an emotional response rather than a rational realization that your examples were flawed. At that point I gave the same bit of advice I would give to anyone who seems to be both easily angered and is unable to grasp basic concepts of unit match ups.
5)Yes, I insinuated that you "might", never "assumed" you would. See how that works.
BTW, this is priceless. Yes, I mispelled a word, but the word I mispelled was not the word you indicated. You claimed that I mis-spelled the word "spelling" but in fact I mis-spelled the word "sentence". Which is more embarrassing, a doubled letter from an old keyboard or using the wrong word in your attempted slam that results in a Fail?
Kevin949 wrote:kartofelkopf wrote:Wow...
So, in HtH, FNP and WBB are identical in when they can be used.... except WBB happens later, so the unit could be overrun or at least lost combat before WBB can happen.
So, point FNP.
At range, WBB can be used against AP1/2 weapons... which is cool, except most ap 1/2 weapons are also s8+ (railgun, meltagun, lascannon, etc...). The only advantage WBB has is against Plasma fire... so... yay, I guess?
Which is a more common sight on the battlefields of 5e 40k? HtH combats, or plasma-heavy armies? Given that EVERYONE runs Melta now, that advantage, limited to begin with, shrinks even further.
This is all really besides the point, as the main issue was the one first addressed-- FNP happens IMMEDIATELY. And, since most people run rez orbs anyways (and assuming they function roughly the same next edition), the sole advantage WBB currently has is lost with an orb around.
Now, also consider the needing a unit within 6" and WBB is still the clear loser.
Why do people oppose change so vehemently?
I don't oppose change, I just don't feel that FNP is the answer. If that's what they end up with, then so be it. It would just be nice if they didn't turn into BA pt. 2.
*Edit*
And with that, I'm out of this conversation. I'm not continuing to debate this with immaturity abound.
This comes across as an unprovoked attack upon kartofelkopf's maturity level when all he has done here is disagree with you. If your upset with me then deal with me or complain about me to the mods but don't lash out at others because your angry with me. It only serves to discredit you.
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Post by: Samus_aran115
Just make pariahs count as necrons. Pariahs have potential to be fething awesome. They can be like terminators, or something.
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Post by: mrwittwer
kartofelkopf wrote:mrwittwer wrote:
Sweeping advance is only a problem in the first only round of combat when you are charged.
FTFY. With Necrons as they stand, you WILL lose combat with just about anything that charges you... and at I2, you will probably be overrun.
So, yes, sweeping advance is only a problem on the turn you're charged... the problem is, it's likely the only turn that unit will see in CC.
Well i dont know what exactly is charing your warriors, or why you havent softened up the squad before it charges you? That would be just silly to let full strength squads charge your only troops when the main power in necrons is their shooting. But its hard to argue with someone who doesnt understand this, so ima let you enjoy your CC warriors.
FNP is VASTLY inferior to WBB.
Except for all the times it isn't... which is all the time.
The rules are almost identical in their effect- namely, preventing a model from being removed on a 4+. The only major difference is when they are applied- FNP happens immediately, which prevents you from having to take Morale checks against shooting, allows you to swing back in HtH, and lowers the chances of losing a combat.
All the things you cite as an advantage of WBB (porting out of combat and a second roll) are the result of another unit entirely-- the Monolith. If WBB ----> FNP, I imagine the monolith will still affect Necrons in a similar manner. Even if it doesn't, the advantages of FNP (immediacy, lowered number of morale checks, lowered risk of losing combat) outweigh the benefits of WBB (umm... still not sure what they are).
OH NO! they made synergy within the codex! well it seems WBB is now useless because it can be made better by monoliths. Excuse me. I normally enjoy all my lists to be assemblages of random units.
And if their FNP is going to work with monoliths its not exactly FNP now is it? WBB is unique and with proper wording sweeping advance wont even be a problem. Making WBB even better than FNP.
But i lecture to the deaf and tunnel-visioned mind, so ill end our squabble here.
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Post by: kartofelkopf
with proper wording sweeping advance wont even be a problem.
So... if they change the main rules, Necrons will be playable?
Aweosme...
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Post by: Ultrafool
I want necron monowheels.
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Post by: SweetLou
make it so you cant sweep crons
thats our house rule and it makes them very fun to play against
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Post by: acidchalk
And they shall know no fear = Answer to the main necron problem
18630
Post by: The Dragon
Well in fact, that sounds about damn right.
Personally, if there was ever ANY #$%%&^!!! army in the game that should have had combat tactics and ATSKNF... it's the friggin necrons.
Some friends and I have actually played with several variants of the rules (usually just 2-3 big changes at most-- nix on the C'tan).
To the point however, yes, in the two games I've played with those rules they completely shifted the nature of combat. I can tell you right now that big hearty squads of 20 warriors were simply made of win under that scenario.
Basic rule was, if they didn't make the runner, yank em' out with the 2 monoliths we had in play. It worked like magic.
Of course, that led us to trying it out with just fearless and that was simply awesome.
Let me frame it for you--) interchanging waves of troops relieving the stress from each other whilsts recuperating, meanwhile the Monoliths continue to explode on everything within 12" with abandon.
Good times.
Still, in sum, the big universl changes I'd like to see actually are WBB shift to FNP, however, I'd like it flatly modified to ignore AP1,2, etc. or otherwise for all Necron to recieve a 5+ cover save from a shroud/ maybe a 6+ invulnerable save.
Something to offeset it you know... still, that's pure wishlist. Realistically, we'll be lucky as all hell if they properly mod the Orbs and 'Liths to work with FNP.
Moving on, I also support the shift to Rending.
It fits what Gauss is actually supposed to do, same for the Disruptor Claws really... So I'd like to see Flayed Ones get Rending for melee...
On that note, I think Flayed Ones should be the troop choice no.2 for the Necron. Same point cost, they're basically a melee variant of the warrior anyway with just a spice bit more oomph in deploymeny option and the terror visage shtick going on. I like all that as it is. What I think they need to DO however is increase the max size of the unit from 10 to 20. Two units to the sum of 40 flayed for 700 some odd points, all with FNP & Rending is NO JOKE AT ALL.
Tried one game w/ Necron Fearless, Rending, and Flayed Ones as Troop w/ modified Max unit size.
It was a glorious slaughter of the Orks that day, let me tell you.
As for all this theory that they're going to bump all the stats by one?... eh, I doubt it, but we'll see.
OHHH, one last thing. I think the Monolith should definitely get an orbital curb stomp aka the Tyranid Mawloc.
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Post by: The Dragon
As for a Necron' C'tan in APOCALYPSE.. well, my friends and I have crafted a rule set of our own which we're still tweaking. Mostly, it's so High for a Superheavy because we liked the concept of a living god... .. .. . and that given the C'tan will go OM NOM NOM NOM the second they see another of their own kind, you can only ever have 1 Super Hvy C'tan in play at any time. I also posted this in another thread, but I'm hoping for some feedback here as well. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Whereas other C’tan were content merely with their newfound forms and casual manipulation of the material universe whilst satiating their varied appetites for slaughter, soul-energy, and worship, the Void Dragon reveled in its deliverance from ignorance and the development of self awareness aside knowledge. From its Nectrontyr subjects and later, combat with the Old Ones and their ethereal minions, the Void Dragon learned the secrets of science and the warp. Taking such knowledge and combining it with its own mastery of the materium, the Void Dragon unlocked nearly all the secrets of the universe, making it a true living god amongst all mortals. As such, when the Old Ones released their psychic spawn upon the universe and the C’tan who had been fighting amongst themselves for sport found their armies being turned aside like the Necrontyr before them, they turned to the greatest mind amongst their number to lead them back to victory—the Void Dragon. United once more, the C’tan lent their strength and resources to the Void Dragon as it began to utilize its arcane knowledge of the materium and immaterium alike to cast a veil across the stars to seal off the universe from the warp-spawned magicks of the immaterium forever, guaranteeing C’tan dominion. With such force behind the effort, the success of the ward was merely a matter of time, however, like many great projects before and since, its completion was never to come to be. As great as the Void Dragon’s mastery of the materium was, so too was the Deceiver’s of the mind and perception--even amongst its own kind. While at first eager to aid the Void Dragon, over time the Deceiver became keenly aware of the Void Dragon’s superior mastery over the technologies controlling all their Nectronyr slaves, and that just as much as the ward would seal the denizens of the warp beyond any corner of realspace, it would equally seal the C’tan within—a universe wherein none could rival the power of the Void Dragon or its forces. Thus, when the Enslavers, the ruinous powers of Chaos, erupted outward across the cosmos the Deceiver was quick to take advantage of the situation and convince its fellows to abandon the Great Ward and instead choose to entomb themselves, to wait out the psychic infestation and await a day when the universe could be culled once more. So it was, that the Void Dragon was forced to lay aside its work without the added power of its brethren. Bitter and incensed, the Void Dragon warned its ilk against the scheming of the Deceiver, but the words fell on deaf ears. Left in defeat and swearing vengeance for their abandonment of the project, the Void Dragon marshaled the bulk of its forces and retreated to an outer arm of the galaxy to entomb itself and servants. However, before it lay to rest the embittered ancient entity bid a series of commands to its most trusted followers and guardians—to plant a poison amongst the feast for the enslavers whenever a suitably mutable race should emerge and lay the groundwork for their own God’s rise to power via the completion of his masterwork, this time absent the assistance of his fellow C’tan. The full consequence of this action is still yet unknown, but what can be assured is that however far the Deceiver schemes into the future, the Chaos Gods twist and plan, and the Eldar sift through sand and time for clues and dreams of what may come, the Void Dragon remains more patient, more calculating, more vast, more ancient , and more alien an intelligence than they may ever conceive. What thoughts lurk within its mind none can ponder and what designs it may have put into instrumentality none can know. Now, that it is free once more not only from its entombment but the shackles that the Immortal God Emperor of Man hath wrought for it, what hope does the cosmos have? How are any to prevail against an entity that has walked atop the stars and warred in the time before time, when the gods themselves were not yet children at its feet?? Void Dragon 3000 pt v.1.5 WS 7 BS 7 S D T 9 A 9 W 10 I 6 Ld 10 Sv 2+/3+ SPECIAL RULES::: Gargantuan Creature Above All Others: The C’tan will tolerate each other’s presence when needed as they regain their strength, but in front of their amassed forced there can be no compromises. In any Necron Force in a Warhammer 40K Apocalypse Battle, only one C’tan with the Gargantuan Creature special rule may be played. Wings of the Abyss: The Void Dragon’s material construct soars on massive, vorpal wings as black as night. It’s said gazing upon them is like looking into the dead, dark space between the stars. The Wings of the Abyss allow the Void dragon to move 18” in its movement phase, ignoring any intervening terrain/models. Lord of the Void: The Void Dragon’s namesake is no longer merely an adjective in respect to the past method of his imprisonment by the Immortal God Emperor. Given time, interest, and incentive to both influence the outer world as well as eventually free itself, the C’tan mastered those powers which would cause a schism in between the material and immaterial realms. They are no threat to him. The Void Dragon is immune to the effects of vortex weaponry (i.e. vortex grenades, missiles, etc.) as well as any other special abilities which would remove him directly from the table and game. Destroyer of Worlds: Such is the unnatural power of the living god in the material plane that no force can stay his wrath. In addition to his attacks counting as being dealt from a D strength weapon, no invulnerable saves or other types of save may be used against wounds from the Void dragon. Wrath of the Void Dragon: Such is the anger of the Void Dragon since the indemnity of his imprisonment that the mere death and consumption of the soul-energy of his foes is insufficient. To assuage his wrath he must remove the very memory of their existence from the material plane. Any models reduced to 0 wounds or vehicles destroyed by the Void Dragon are not removed as casualties or left as wrecks or craters on the table, but instead are removed from the game entirely. Any counters, bonuses, abilities, etc, the enemy gained from their presence in their force whilst alive is removed, and no such thing may be gained from their death (i.e. Faith points, Unique space marine chapter tactics, etc…). Any special wargear, assets, and items on or with their person likewise disappear into the void. Kill points/victory points earned by the removed unit remain however. Likewise, kill points/victory points earned by their destruction also remain. Manifestation of a Living God: The sheer power and presence of a near fully empowered C’tan makes all its foes, mortal and god alike think twice before affronting him in combat. All models and units wishing to assault the Void Dragon must pass a leadership test to do so. Fearless units must also pass this test, however, if they fail they may choose to assault any other legal unit within their assault range. For the purposes of this test, vehicles with a weapon skill assaulting the Void Dragon count as having Ld 10. Super Heavy Vehicles and Monstrous creatures may re-roll the test. March of the Entombed: Recently unearthed from their rest and eager at sight of their God to fly to war, the Necron Lords loyal to the Void Dragon have ordered their forces to cease their careful, hit-and-run tactics and instead have switched to Necrontyr siege tactics more suitable for the prolonged, inter-galactic war soon to come. The Necron Phase Out rule is suspended this game. Additionally, all Necron Models on the table are Fearless for as long the Void Dragon remains alive. Resurrection Core: Unlike other C’tan who merely appropriated the ancient technologies of the Necrontyr, the Void Dragon made them his own and as such his mastery of them is absolute. All Necron units on the table may roll their WBB as if they were near a resurrection orb for as long as the Void Dragon remains alive. Additionally, Necron units within 48” of the Void Dragon may act as if they were within 12” of a Tomb Spyder for the purposes of WBB. Architect of the Great Ward: Utilizing its vast knowledge and arcane mastery of the materium, the Void Dragon manipulates reality itself to reject the presence of the warp and its ilk. All enemy units within 48” of the Void Dragon have their leadership reduced to 7. Units Making Ld tests for Psychic Powers and abilities will roll 3 dice and take the 2 highest. Special Abilities which would conflict with this effect are nullified by the awesome power the Void Dragon exerts on reality itself. All psychic abilities which would affect the Void Dragon were he a normal model automatically fail and cause a perils of the warp test which must be re-rolled if successful. Units of Demons/Daemons with a model within 12” of the Void Dragon find themselves especially susceptible to his manipulations as their very essence is shorn from them. Any such units moving, running, or assaulting must take a leadership test. If they fail, all models in the unit are considered to have failed a dangerous terrain test. Gaze of the Abyss: If the Void Dragon is not locked in assault during the shooting phase, it may instead turn its attention and mastery of the material universe towards corrupting the technologies it has spent millennia whispering the secrets of across the cosmos. The Void Dragon may take the standard large template and place it over any vehicle model(s) within its line of sight. All vehicle models underneath the template are subsequently held under the control of the Void Dragon for the Shooting Phase. In this Shooting Phase, the controlling player may pivot the vehicles towards their targets, but vehicles must shoot as if they had moved 6” regardless of whether or not they did due to the crews fighting against the influence of the Void Dragon. At the beginning of their next owners turn, models which were controlled by the Void Dragon Must take a Leadership test to shake the influence of the C’tan. If they fail they remain under the thrall of the Void Dragon and may not move or shoot that turn. Instead, in the Void’s Dragon’s next shooting phase they will continue to fire as directed. Super Heavy Vehicles which would be the target of this ability may take a Leadership test at Ld 10 to resist this power. Death of a Star God: Like all C’tan, the true essence of the Void Dragon is an ageless energy being which feeds on the life of stars. Their mortal form of writhing, living metal is but a temporary coil to house the true awe of their form. When such a form is released from its host however, the result is an explosive spectacle not soon to be forgotten. When the Void Dragon is reduced to 0 wounds, its essence is freed and a cataclysmic explosion of epic proportions ensues. All models within 4 D6 inches of the Void Dragon take a Strength D hit. All terrain pieces within range of the explosion are removed from the table as the force of the blast literally turns them to flat glass. Units with models which were not on the floor level of the terrain pieces are cast into the air in the explosion and scatter 2 D6 inches regardless of a hit using the deep strike rules. All Necron Units on table with a Ld characteristic must immediately take a Leadership test.
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Post by: Kevin949
Has anyone play tested the necrons with the stubborn USR yet?
I think you'll find that change alone will lead to much more interesting battles.
18630
Post by: The Dragon
*sigh* Yeah... we tried it one time. Same deal as Fearless for squads of 20 being all kinds of null-combat awesome, but at the same time, (we had multiple watchers), there were complaints about it being over-powered.
We had units being reduced to 1-2 men via a high power all power-sword-melee equiv, squad and then passing the Ld test, saving an assload of WBB, then the Monoliths basically put them right back to proper, spread out walking , shot, reduced their number, and then served as a big melee wall only to absorb less hits in combat each cycle over and over again.
In other words, yeah, it was all kinds of cool.. but a little too cool.
Abaddon + 4 LC termies shouldn't be stuck in unending combat-cycles with a basic necron troop.
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Post by: DAaddict
Both have selling points. Personally though sucking in H2H and living to fight another round in H2H where I still suck sounds like a minus for FNP. I think Fearless (bad points) or Stubborn (perhaps too powerful) solve the morale run away from combat issue much better than FNP.
Best point to FNP is that it is happening immediately. I do miss the WBB immunity to high strength and the potential double WBB of porting through a monolith.
If they go to FNP I hope that Monoliths, Res Orbs and Spyders will produce some type of modifications to it so they maintain a synergy with the core troops.
18630
Post by: The Dragon
Don't we all? lol
16525
Post by: mrwittwer
@The Dragon: Looking at your rules for the void dragon, they seem ridiculously over powered. When hes is on the table all necrons always get their WBB? That is really a big army wide modifier to give out, not to mention this thing might have the best statline i have ever seen. Personally, i think its all too much. Its only 500 points more than a warlord titan, and i consider this vastly superior to a warlord titan. T9 with a 3++ and 10 wounds. What will this thing ever die too? Automatically Appended Next Post: @The Dragon: Looking at your rules for the void dragon, they seem ridiculously over powered. When hes is on the table all necrons always get their WBB? That is really a big army wide modifier to give out, not to mention this thing might have the best statline i have ever seen. Personally, i think its all too much. Its only 500 points more than a warlord titan, and i consider this vastly superior to a warlord titan. T9 with a 3++ and 10 wounds. What will this thing ever die too?
18630
Post by: The Dragon
Eh, you think so? I've already had it brought to its knees 3-4 times in different games with just massed missiles, lascannons, etc.
Like I said, everybody always goes OOP!!! But Like I said, it's 3,000 pts.
I originally played it for 3,500 but after the first 3 times it got deuced out by T2-4 and that more often than naught it takes a bunch of Crons with it, we figured it needed to be a little cheaper?
Let me ask you something. Which would you realistically rather face? this or 5-6 Baneblades.
Trust me, this guy only ever sees 6000+ games and it's not easy to keep him alive. But, hey , I posted it here to talk about him and refine. I'd still play him for 3,500. Automatically Appended Next Post: Ex: 20 regular SM termies can pop this boy's clogs in a heartbeat with range support after they're creamed.
Why?
oh yeah, sure maybe I can lay into 1 unit hard 1 time, but then welcome to I 1 where the hits keep on coming.
BTW: Typically, I get 4-6 S-D blows through even hitting on a 3+.
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Post by: Kevin949
The Dragon wrote:*sigh* Yeah... we tried it one time. Same deal as Fearless for squads of 20 being all kinds of null-combat awesome, but at the same time, (we had multiple watchers), there were complaints about it being over-powered.
We had units being reduced to 1-2 men via a high power all power-sword-melee equiv, squad and then passing the Ld test, saving an assload of WBB, then the Monoliths basically put them right back to proper, spread out walking , shot, reduced their number, and then served as a big melee wall only to absorb less hits in combat each cycle over and over again.
In other words, yeah, it was all kinds of cool.. but a little too cool.
Abaddon + 4 LC termies shouldn't be stuck in unending combat-cycles with a basic necron troop.
You wanna talk about tough, try playing the CSM battle mission Dark Parade, I think it was called. My buddy and I played that mission this past weekend (though he was tau, just so ya know. We rolled at random) All non-vehicles when wiped out go back into reserve at full strength, all non-fearless units have stubborn and preferred enemy. It was like I didn't even have to worry about WBB or phase out and it felt like I was playing black templar as I cut a swath with my lord+immortal pseudo retinue.
I find it a little humorous how a simple change, such as adding stubborn, makes people go from calling an army non-competitive to saying they're overpowered. Would they have preferred you to have FNP instead of WBB (with res orb/monolith providing same benefit for FNP that they do for WBB)? Because then that would have a little nuts where you get all your attacks from the saved FNP rolls AND you get to port out and so on...personally though, I still say stubborn is a better fix and seems to fit more in line with necrons fluff wise. In so much that they aren't fearless but they don't crack either, I mean hell they have a frikken eater of worlds or whatever on their side, why would they be afraid of a little daemon?
18630
Post by: The Dragon
I think you just pointed out the craziness of Stubborn necrons right there, lol
Also, I've just run more calculations.. about 10 times.
30 BS 4 lascannons in 6,000pts of play (they're going to be there!)
They always take Void Dragon down by turn 4 at the latest. Usually, 7/10 times it goes down by T3. 1 time it fell T2!!!
8620
Post by: DAaddict
Alright if, as suspected, they switch to FNP how about these changes to incorporate some item/abilities from before with WBB:
Res Orb/Spyder in range of unit at the time of the test: Removes doubling strength or AP 1-2 negating FNP. (Think PW, PF etc should still be final but could try it once,)
Monolith - monolith in range (12") can designate one unit to get FNP rerolls for the entire enemy turn.
All necrons get Fearless - Still means they get hosed in HTH but not because they get overrun. It would mean all necron units are CC pillows and with Monoliths could still
be ported out of CC. Think this is superior to stubborn and fits the fluff better. They don't care so if 5 LC terminators rip a necron unit apart they would just be methodically trying to end the life of their target not trying to preserve themselves and certainly not running away to preserve themselves.
26767
Post by: Kevin949
The Dragon wrote:I think you just pointed out the craziness of Stubborn necrons right there, lol
Also, I've just run more calculations.. about 10 times.
30 BS 4 lascannons in 6,000pts of play (they're going to be there!)
They always take Void Dragon down by turn 4 at the latest. Usually, 7/10 times it goes down by T3. 1 time it fell T2!!!
LoL well the preferred enemy had MUCH to do with it honestly. More so than stubborn. Should be playing tomorrow so maybe I'll ask my buddies if we can try out adding the stubborn rule army wide.
31501
Post by: ThatMG
In My fan dex that I have half made I Based the Necrons arround DOW I Dark Crusade and the new rules in 5th ed E.G. USRs. My Dex may of made them OP vs MEQ or may have made them balenced vs MQ depending on your prepective the rules i gave them as standard is follows.
"We will be back rolls"
Has been removed instead all Necrons get Feel No Pain
Note: Before QQ see some of the wargear. (Hint: Res Orb, Tomb Spider)
"Phase Out Rule"
has been removed.
Necron Rule
Has Feel No Pain, Relentless and Fearless USRs.
Resurrection Orb
Necrons within 6" of the Lord allways get their Feel No Pain Roll.
Example (Wounds caused by AP1, Ap2 Weapons, Power Weapons, Instant Death
Ignores saves ETC, read USR for more details)
Tomb Spider
Adds +1 to the roll on the dice for Feel No Pain within range per Tomb Spider
Tomb Spider are MC so can be fired at so :p.
another possiblely Broken rule change is Gauss Weapons
Gauss
Any roll to hit of 5 causes a wound, Armour Saves apply as normal.
Any roll to hit of 6 causes a wound, Armour Saves can not be taken.
Any roll of 5 to hit a vehicle will cuase a glancing hit.
Any roll of 6 to hit a vehicle will cause a Penetrating hit.
without needing to roll to wound or AP.
16525
Post by: mrwittwer
@ThatMG
Everything looks fine except for gauss. A squad of rapidfiring warriors would easily destroy any vehicle. Rending seems to make a whole lot more sense imo.
31501
Post by: ThatMG
mrwittwer wrote:@ThatMG
Everything looks fine except for gauss. A squad of rapidfiring warriors would easily destroy any vehicle. Rending seems to make a whole lot more sense imo.
Yeah the idea came from rending / a vid Beast of war on youtube. It is a uber rending kindof. The only thing is I my view Necrons are mass troop army that shoots their high tech weapons that can take out anything. Just the issue with that is in 5th ed a troops heavy army is not good vs mech unless you have a lot of anti tank. it was based on
Dark crusade and some people may have said they where op in it but are Necrons not supposed to be op. I did tests thought was getting like 5 pens per squad of warriors
but dice gods and all that (20 shots for 10 warriors at 12").
16525
Post by: mrwittwer
I suppose, it could work. It would need some playtesting to really see if its balanced.
14792
Post by: kartofelkopf
I'd like to see a modification of the current Gauss rule, where a 6 is still a glancing hit like it is now, but the Gauss rule allows for Gauss weapons to only roll -1 on Glancing hits.
It prevents the need to fiddle with too many new units, while still allowing Gauss weapons a chance to kill vehicles like they did in 4e.
20084
Post by: Sir Harry Flashman, VC
kartofelkopf wrote:I'd like to see a modification of the current Gauss rule, where a 6 is still a glancing hit like it is now, but the Gauss rule allows for Gauss weapons to only roll -1 on Glancing hits.
It prevents the need to fiddle with too many new units, while still allowing Gauss weapons a chance to kill vehicles like they did in 4e.
Instead of the Rending USR, just make all rolls to wound or penertrate AP1 on the roll of a six. It gives the same affect as Rending against infantry, but makes Necrons deadly to mech once again with the +1 damage. This means you can now wreck a vehicle on a 6 on a glancing hit.
Might be a good idea to say this has no effect on open topped vehicles as auto penertrating hits would be a bit powerful...
26767
Post by: Kevin949
I don't think it's a good idea to make the entire necron army able to wreck a vehicle on a glance. That sounds like going back to 4th edition and as far as I know GW was trying to get people to actually start taking more vehicles. Gauss works fine the way it is now, necrons just need more variety in weapons with more lower AP options.
8193
Post by: dancingcricket
Actually the entire army being able to wreck a vehicle on a glance sounds great. It might encourage people to get out of their vehicles more, because there might be necrons at the tournament. Explode would be better, but that's just me thinking that mech needs a bigger deterrent, and potentially losing 2kp instead of 1kp because you came up against the wrong army in your all mech list sounds wonderful.
20084
Post by: Sir Harry Flashman, VC
AP1 is ideal. You've still got to hit then roll a six and then another six and then chances are the vehicle will be on a 4+ cover save because of smoke, kustom force fields, or obscured. even if you destroy a vehicle the occupants get out undamaged, hardly a game breaker really and highly unlikely to de-mech the meta game.
14792
Post by: kartofelkopf
AP1 is a much simpler solution.
As far as making Necrons "too strong" against mech... meh.
The pendulum is so far in the mech direction that I doubt even a strong Necron presence could deter that much. Besides, it's still a max 24" range for most of the Gauss weaponry in the list, so it's not as if the vehicles are getting picked off cross-table.
31501
Post by: ThatMG
About my Gauss rule in the Eldar current codex Wraithcannons do the job better than what I said but at a shorter range
3/4 glance
5/6 pen
Also their techically poisoned weapons in the Faq I think they made it S 1, cause all S: X weapons got changed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also i dont like the idea of giving the whole army ap 1 it counters feel no pain so could be issue vs Death Guard, Blood Angels and other Necrons,
Dont mind rending for ease or what about +D6 Rending ? i think that was old rending.
Most weapons would get S 4+6+D6 =11-16 at 1/6th chance.
26767
Post by: Kevin949
rending would be the same problem against FNP armies as rending would negate FNP since no armor save can ever be taken against a rending weapon.
Also, AP1 or rending would not be an issue for necrons in their current form with WBB and not FNP.
16070
Post by: Sarge
As a Necron player I'm still not convinced that WBB is as complicated as some non-Necron players say. FNP will be an equivalent to WBB when you remove the AP and strength restrictions. This can be done by rewording the ResOrb. This will take a grand total of 5 minutes for a normal person. Obviously, GW is playing a bit with the type setting so we're years away. Pariahs need to be Necrons and leave their points alone. Wraiths need to be a bigger unit and come with rending and an upgrade for power weapons. Flayed ones as troops with fleet or furious charge would be excellent. Their heavy section is a bit weak. I believe we will see new vehicles for Necrons as they're in the novels BL is producing. Lastly, hopefully GW doesn't get rid of my warscythes because that'd make me cry.
31501
Post by: ThatMG
What Did in my fandex was to remove the limit on Pariahs change their stats a bit becuase their supposed to be MC / IC killers have them my Necron rule
Feel No Pain, Relentless, Fearless. Change their Soulless rule to state it works on unit inside vehicles and models with stubborn. Gave them 4++ Save
at 40 pts per model.
I realy dont get limits/requirements on units it its lame their is a Force Org + Point Cost + Unchangeable unit sizes why need any more.
My whole fandex is designed so you would be better using plasma weapons or high ap high shots like you do in DOW and they should be a treat to MEQ and their tanks
because Necrons are.
Weapon i Change it that they have Staff of Light and it is upgrade to various weapons like the Lord in DOW does. Thinking on what you said I dunno if they might Nerf Warscythes would be realy lame.
Necrons fluff is they in their bases get awaken spam tons of guys at you that have the best guns in the 40k (basic trooper wise) and kill you. The way to stop them
is largely numbers and to blow up their bases (what should only be fluff wise).
18630
Post by: The Dragon
I think,... considering the statistics that for gauss to count as AP1, Rending on a 6 is okay. Frankly, warriors never should've been able to down a Land Raider...
Now immortals and Destroyers, that's a different story, lol
30984
Post by: Brutii11
acidchalk wrote:FNP Is not better than WBB. If you knock down all 10 of my warriors, next turn they will get up and rapid fire whatever knocked them down. Also, by giving them FNP you lose out on the reroll AND porting out of combat ability that the monolith gives you, since you can't port someone when a FNP is failed with this mentality. The only thing i can see it helping with is the -LD for dead guys. What will probably be done about that is that they would just give them and they shall know no fear like they had pre-codex i believe....
I'm no Necron player, but when necrons get up from WBB I'm pretty sure that they either count as moving or can't move that turn. Also if all ten of your warriors were down then 1) only around 5 would get back up and 2) You would probably be hopelessly outnumbered and even if you did get 10 4+, chances are that whatever just killed you is still there...
Also, in my very humble space marine opinion, FNP is slightly better than WBB because there are less risks involved. If all your warriors are down you have to hope that enough get back up to seize the objective/ kill this squad/ whatever else they need to do and if only a few come back then your plans are scuppered. At least with FNP you know what your dealing with immediatley.
Oh and in 5th I think that necrons should have a variant of the Immortal that carries your version of a lascannon and has slow and puropseful.
If I am wrong about WBB then please blame Joe the Necron guy I play, not me  .
8193
Post by: dancingcricket
I disagree Dragon. Warriors should be able to take down a Land Raider. In fact I think they should be able to have it explode instead of just wreck. Otherwise you have to consider giving them similar treatment to other codexes where you have upgrade models in each unit, with a general equivalent to a melta.
It's going to be hard/interesting enough to see what they do to try and balance out having to survive deepstriking powerweapon carrying close combat specialists, and mechanized lists with a ton or ordnance, while having no armor to hide in. Trying to do that while reducing the effectiveness of the shooting doesn't sound that wonderful.
18630
Post by: The Dragon
That IS a good point. Other codexes DO have the upgrade character,etc...
I guess just changing roll of d6 Gauss to counts as ap1 would be fine for anti-vehicle, make up for the silly lack of low ap weapons for 'crons as well, and since gauss always wounds on a 6 anyways would basically just become a slightly better version of rending... or maybe just different?
Rending couldl actually land a full penetrate on most anything but Gauss will always be just a -1glance. so 6s to destroy.
Yeah... it feels like it balances, but I'd like to see some playtesting.
18630
Post by: The Dragon
Rejoice all!
well... not really.
Anyways, I just got done playing a rules mode Necron game of 2000pts versus Space Marine w/...
3 Vindicators, 2 Land Speeders in a squad, 6 Attack Bikes w/ MM, 2 Tac squads w/ power weapons, fist, etc. and some melta/combi melta/plasma pistol fun in there, as well as a LR Redeemer filled with the Good ness of a Librarian in Terminator armour w/ Storm shield, the Str10 spell + null zone and paired to 5 assault termies-- 3TH/SS, 2LC...
Rules..
Necron: was blanketed to include Fearless, Slow & Purposeful ( whose inclusion of being relentless was damn necessary for the warriors to be worth anything...), and of course, Feel No Pain.
Gauss was ruled as is, with mention that on a 6 it counts as AP1.
Others...
Monoliths were rule updated to be more clear and friendly in regards to deepstrike, they still moved everything off.. Transport ability paired with FNP was kept. We ruled that if you transported the unit you were allowed to reroll any failed rolls from the previous GAME turn. This basically meant casualties were kept in sequence of when they occurred and was easy to keep track of.
Res. Orb was altered to function with FNP ( it tool all of 3 seconds... "units with a model within 6" of the res orb may always roll for FNP, regardless of whether or not the damage was dealt by AP1,2, double toughness, or through power weapons..."
Also included was that Necron Lords would automatically have a 4+ invulnerable save. This was quite important as it is a major problem in the current codex.
...
Initial turns where nearly all necrons were recieving the benefits of the orb were somewhat ludicrous since it basically turned the whole army into thousand sons, except better.
Repeating 4+ cover saves combined with 4+ unstoppable FNP were great and made the crons feel like REAL necrons.
Eventually, Space Marine Assault tactics ( the same old one's...) drew the lords and force sections to disparate areas and ended the game in a tie with a series of 4-5 unending combats, all unfortunately right on top of the objectives, lol...
The Destroyers operating with a Lord on a D-body/Res orb in proximity were a force of nature and pivotal in picking off vehicles, transports, and the vindicators in early to mid game.
Post game, tests of the destroyers with standard Rending rules were conducted and it was found that in that context, anything with armour under 14 if completely #$%^ed.
If anyone's interest in particular points or interaction , lemme know. I suggest to you all that you try it out. Oh yes, one last thing, the FNP pretty much neutralized the worst component of Fearless, ala plaguebearers... but unlike them, the Monolith saw a lot of duty pulling units out of combats just to let them have another chance to get those ap1 shots..
I regretted having not taken at least two monoliths for more snatch and grab.
Automatically Appended Next Post: oh yeah, for models which normally used jetbike movememnt i.e. Destroyers, Hvy Destroyers, Scarabs, Wraiths, etc.. we didn't have them use the Slow and Purposeful rule since... well, that'd be ridiculous.
I suppose, that's one that needs to be taken OUT of Necron and just applied to specific units...
30294
Post by: Nightbringer's Chosen
Wishes?
Just that they don't remove the C'tan. While they may not be worth the points, they're flavorful, and the whole reason I took up the army in the first place.
I'm worried, what with the BRB having no pictures of them and making 0 mention of them. I'm hoping it's just that their nature is mysterious and not well known by the general 'public' of the galaxy.
18630
Post by: The Dragon
General consensus is that the C'tan are going bye-bye because FW wants throw them out as stupid-expensive gargantuan creatures.
I'm thinking the current C'tan models will still stick around, but instead of being what they actually ARE, instead they'll be treated as a Necron Lord manifesting AS the C'tan... with hopefully lowered stats and even more drastically lowered prices. Although, if they gave either Nightbringer OR Deciever jetbike movement I'd be sold in a millisecond to keep them as is pricewise, lol
30294
Post by: Nightbringer's Chosen
Personally I prefer WBB. FNP is so...generic. I felt the getting back up to be really thematic, as well as fairly demoralizing for your opponent to see what he thought was a good turn half undone. Automatically Appended Next Post: The Dragon wrote:General consensus is that the C'tan are going bye-bye because FW wants throw them out as stupid-expensive gargantuan creatures.
I'm thinking the current C'tan models will still stick around, but instead of being what they actually ARE, instead they'll be treated as a Necron Lord manifesting AS the C'tan... with hopefully lowered stats and even more drastically lowered prices. Although, if they gave either Nightbringer OR Deciever jetbike movement I'd be sold in a millisecond to keep them as is pricewise, lol
*sigh* So disappointing.
Well, here's crossing my fingers anyway...
14792
Post by: kartofelkopf
Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:Personally I prefer WBB. FNP is so...generic. I felt the getting back up to be really thematic, as well as fairly demoralizing for your opponent to see what he thought was a good turn half undone.
It's just the name and happens at a different time. The rule entry could even keep the name "We'll be back: Necrons blah blah blah have FNP."
Gameplay advantages aside, from a fluff standpoint, it's just as easy to imagine the Necrons reassembling themselves with the one roll as with the other.
Besides, FNP is just the catch-all for a variety of abilities. I imagine a unit of Blood Angels with Sanguinary Priest experiences FNP in a VERY different way than Plague Marines do, and both are different from what passes for FNP with the Mad Dok in a unit of Ork boyz.
FNP is only as bland as YOU make it out to be in your mind. Rules-wise, FNP and WBB are very similar- why not streamline the whole process?
18630
Post by: The Dragon
I've got to say, I've playtested FNP with the res orbs fixed also, and it makes the Necron all kinds of awesome.
Of course, you still get shivved in melee, but NOW you actually live long enough to get snatched back by Monoliths!..
..
of course that was also assuming there was Fearless, but even then, most of the time the 3+/4+ combo made it so that i was only loosing combat by 1-2 and with Ld 10 base, it would've been no problem.
26767
Post by: Kevin949
kartofelkopf wrote:It's just the name and happens at a different time. The rule entry could even keep the name "We'll be back: Necrons blah blah blah have FNP."
Gameplay advantages aside, from a fluff standpoint, it's just as easy to imagine the Necrons reassembling themselves with the one roll as with the other.
Besides, FNP is just the catch-all for a variety of abilities. I imagine a unit of Blood Angels with Sanguinary Priest experiences FNP in a VERY different way than Plague Marines do, and both are different from what passes for FNP with the Mad Dok in a unit of Ork boyz.
FNP is only as bland as YOU make it out to be in your mind. Rules-wise, FNP and WBB are very similar- why not streamline the whole process?
No, it's not just the name. There is a fundamental difference you are leaving out and one that is very very important. AP2 and AP1 weapons negate FNP and not WBB.
Sure, give us FNP but take out the limitations it has that WBB does not.
14792
Post by: kartofelkopf
Yes, yes, yes... do note that I said "FNP and WBB are very similar"- not identical.
How many weapons are AP 1/2 and DON'T double up?
Plasma... umm... Rending weapons... and...?
Most AP1/2 stuff is also going to cause Instant Death, so the "loss" in the move to FNP is minimal. Couple this with the advantages of FNP (preventing Morale Checks, not horribly losing HtH and being overrun, not needing a nearby unit of the same type to get back up, etc, etc, etc) and I think the trade-off is still a net benefit.
EDIT: for spelling more better
5470
Post by: sebster
Thing is, people defend WBB for Necrons as it is right now because it is what they’re used to. The minor and accidental* differences might feel important, but if they’d been there I’d find it very unlikely that people would be clamouring for them. If people had never had WBB immunity to AP1 and AP2 weapons I just don’t see someone coming in to a rules proposals forum and saying “my idea to fix the necrons is to give their WBB roll immunity to AP1 and AP2”. I think it is alright to lose those kinds of minor and accidental details in favour of a much more streamlined mechanic.
On the other hand, I see a lot of people recognising Necrons have two big problems – they don’t really put out the kind of firepower you need from expensive, shooting oriented troops, and their much vaunted toughness is made laughable when they’re assaulted and run away. Fix those two issues and you’re a long way towards fixing Necrons as a list.
*That FNP is stopped by AP1 and AP2 but WBB isn’t is an accident of rules updates. In 4th AP1 and AP2 didn’t stop either FNP or WBB rolls, now we’re in fifth and the FNP roll has been updated but the WBB rule has not. It is not a deliberate design feature.
31734
Post by: cheapbuster
focusedfire wrote:@ Kevin-How is FnP weaker?
They both work in the same manner except WBB has your guys fall over and not roll to get back up until the start of your next turn which means that these models affect close combat with a negative morale modifier. FnP lets you make the roll(the same roll of 4+ I might add) during the assault phase. This means less casualties and less nrgatives during combat resolution.
Also, Models with FnP also do not have to be within 6" of another model of the same type in order to roll.
If your thinking about Instant death, the same rumours about WBB changing to FnP also state that lords and such will get Eternal warrior.
Pls, Go back and read both rules. Then give a substantiated argument to your claim.
fnp is weaker because ap 1 or 2 ignors it but not with wbb
14792
Post by: kartofelkopf
cheapbuster wrote:
fnp is weaker because ap 1 or 2 ignors it but not with wbb
Quick, name all the weapons/powers that are AP 1/2 but DON'T cause instant death.
Plasma, Rending, and a small handful of others... if you read the thread, you'll see that the AP1/2 thing is outweighed by the advantages of FNP.
26767
Post by: Kevin949
kartofelkopf wrote:Yes, yes, yes... do note that I said "FNP and WBB are very similar"- not identical.
How many weapons are AP 1/2 and DON'T double up?
Plasma... umm... Rending weapons... and...?
Most AP1/2 stuff is also going to cause Instant Death, so the "loss" in the move to FNP is minimal. Couple this with the advantages of FNP (preventing Morale Checks, not horribly losing HtH and being overrun, not needing a nearby unit of the same type to get back up, etc, etc, etc) and I think the trade-off is still a net benefit.
EDIT: for spelling more better
The doubling up factor isn't a huge issue except for warriors. Every other viable unit is T5. Flayed ones and wraiths are practically a joke to field. So the double strength isn't really an issue as there are a number of AP2 or AP1 str8/9 weapons that would otherwise kill FNP T5 models but not WBB T5 models.
I understand the hth benefits of FNP over WBB but again, the units that necrons fail against the most are those with power weapons and usually power weapon wielding models either have lots of attacks and strike first anyway or all the models have power weapons and fewer attacks. FNP or WBB doesn't matter at that point. Dont' know about you, but when I got hth with a non-power weapon/ MC type unit I don't get swept. Automatically Appended Next Post: sebster wrote:Thing is, people defend WBB for Necrons as it is right now because it is what they’re used to. The minor and accidental* differences might feel important, but if they’d been there I’d find it very unlikely that people would be clamouring for them. If people had never had WBB immunity to AP1 and AP2 weapons I just don’t see someone coming in to a rules proposals forum and saying “my idea to fix the necrons is to give their WBB roll immunity to AP1 and AP2”. I think it is alright to lose those kinds of minor and accidental details in favour of a much more streamlined mechanic.
On the other hand, I see a lot of people recognising Necrons have two big problems – they don’t really put out the kind of firepower you need from expensive, shooting oriented troops, and their much vaunted toughness is made laughable when they’re assaulted and run away. Fix those two issues and you’re a long way towards fixing Necrons as a list.
*That FNP is stopped by AP1 and AP2 but WBB isn’t is an accident of rules updates. In 4th AP1 and AP2 didn’t stop either FNP or WBB rolls, now we’re in fifth and the FNP roll has been updated but the WBB rule has not. It is not a deliberate design feature.
I played a match against my buddy from the missions book, it was one of the chaos marines missions. One of the special rules of that mission was that every non vehicle got stubborn and furious charge. Necrons with stubborn were much more formidable and much more resilient in hth in their current form, more so than FNP would allow them to be.
And yes, people are used to WBB in it's current form and no, people probably wouldn't ask for WBB to negate AP1/2 weapons but that is the way it works now and nothing else you said really matters about that fact. You're basically just saying "well if it was this way then you wouldn't be complaining about the possible change". Well, of course not, but it's not that way.
I don't think the difference is an accident of rules updates, I believe it was purposeful as the necrons SHOULD be more advanced in their avoidance of destruction. Automatically Appended Next Post: kartofelkopf wrote:cheapbuster wrote:
fnp is weaker because ap 1 or 2 ignors it but not with wbb
Quick, name all the weapons/powers that are AP 1/2 but DON'T cause instant death.
Plasma, Rending, and a small handful of others... if you read the thread, you'll see that the AP1/2 thing is outweighed by the advantages of FNP.
Again, you can't just say "and don't cause instant death" because you're thinking that everything is T4 which is not the case with necrons. Warriors, flayed ones, wraiths...those are the only necron models that are T4. Flayed ones are typically a bad choice for numerous reasons, Wraiths are OK but very very vulnerable to many other things. Everything else is T5 and there are fewer str10 Ap 2/1 weapons vs Str 8/9 AP 2/1 weapons. And the latter of the weapons is the biggest problem in this FNP vs WBB debate.
18630
Post by: The Dragon
Meh, I played out FNP forces versus 3 Vindicators and the answer is the same it's always been.... RES ORB.
cover save + FNP also means few fallback tests via the shooting phase as well-- don't laugh. I've been that guy who's lost his Ld 10 warriors to a 2d6 run right the hell off the board.
FNP chained through Monoliths also beats the pants off WBB. We just ruled you got to re-roll the FNP from the previous game turn ala current form... sort of. Anyways, it was made of win, and let groups of 8-10 warriors move out of the 'liths, shoot (b/c they had slow 'n purposful) and then assault w/ 2 attacks per warrior.
Let me say, it was an amazing breath of fresh air not to be curb stomped by basic marines, lol
30294
Post by: Nightbringer's Chosen
sebster wrote:Thing is, people defend WBB for Necrons as it is right now because it is what they’re used to.
I defend it because I feel it is more what a Necron should be. Not instant repair, but that the threat of a 'downed' Necron is never certain. It fits more with their whole "waking after millions of years of being dormant" flavor. And as cool as it is to imagine a T1000-style instant reforming/repairing, I think it is much creepier for something 'dead' on the battlefield to get back up after you think it's done for. Picturing the paranoia of a Guardsman pumping round after round into what is essentially a corpse lying on the ground because he has no idea if it's done for or about to get up and disintegrate him.
14792
Post by: kartofelkopf
[quote=Kevin949
The doubling up factor isn't a huge issue except for warriors. Every other viable unit is T5.
There's only 7 Necron units... and 3 of them are T4. Out of the gate, you're REQUIRED to take AT LEAST 20 T4 Necron models. So, yes, it's not a big deal except for warriors, but warriors are the backbone of a Necron force.
I understand the hth benefits of FNP over WBB but again, the units that necrons fail against the most are those with power weapons and usually power weapon wielding models either have lots of attacks and strike first anyway or all the models have power weapons and fewer attacks. FNP or WBB doesn't matter at that point.
Assuming a Rez Orb continues to function as it does after a change to FNP, there's a HUGE advantage- you'd actually be able to strike in HtH, and are less likely to be overrun (which in turn means less need for adding more rules [and point cost] to all Necron units).
Again, you can't just say "and don't cause instant death" because you're thinking that everything is T4 which is not the case with necrons. Warriors, flayed ones, wraiths...those are the only necron models that are T4. Flayed ones are typically a bad choice for numerous reasons, Wraiths are OK but very very vulnerable to many other things. Everything else is T5 and there are fewer str10 Ap 2/1 weapons vs Str 8/9 AP 2/1 weapons. And the latter of the weapons is the biggest problem in this FNP vs WBB debate.
Fair enough, but even maxing out your Destoryers and Heavy Destroyers, you're only pushing 27 models (and a boatload of points)-- even at the minimum you have almost as many warriors. I guess we could also look at taking some Immortals... but... meh.
I'm aware that there are drawbacks to a shift to FNP vs WBB, but the benefits (immediacy, fewer morale checks, less of an auto-lose in CC, simplicity/streamlining, etc) outweigh the losses (increase in vulnerability to a small handful of weapons [shouldn't you be in range of a Rez Orb anyways?]).
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Post by: Kevin949
Well unfortunately you can't reliably have all your units in range of a rez orb all the time and if you're lord is sticking around with your warriors then you're either not defending your softer units properly (sometimes not possible, I understand) by intervening with stronger units or the battle just isn't going your way anyway. Thing is with adding the res orb variable in this debate one could argue that with FNP there are more instances in which the res orb would be needed now thus making strategies for playing necrons more complex. Bad thing? Not particularly, no, but still a counter-point.
If they get shifted to FNP then so be it, I'll make due with it however I can. Obviously it won't be the only change to them so who knows what else comes along with it.
Also, I'd take immortals over heavy d's any day of the week.
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Post by: kartofelkopf
Hopefully Heavy D won't be the only way to deal with vehicles at range... or they make Gauss AP1 (or only -1 on glancing hits, if they're worried about AP being OP).
It'll be interesting to see how they turn out in the next codex-- most of the recent codices have been quite decent. Hopefully that trend continues.
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Post by: The Dragon
oh to dream...
It's funny that while we're all arguing for them to fix what's already here, it's much more likely they'll just come up with new units (*cough Valkyrie cough*) that are needed to hit hard on the table, thus ending with mo' $$$ for GW.
At least... that's what I'm expecting.
As for going back to the now 'tradiitonal rumors' going around, I think we're either going to get the universal +1 stat bump with FNP, or just the super-magic res orb with FNP.
If they really DO give both... well, then Crons really will be scary impressive just for their large units of basic troops...
wait that does sound familiar?........hmmm
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Post by: ThatMG
One of the main counters to people wanting WBB in the new codex is GW have been making the recent Codex's rules generalized they made the USR section and most of the new Codexes are using this unit has this USR, GW might make crons have feel no pain but it depends if they think Necrons will decrases their sales of space marines so may get a nerfbat *Looks at Tyranid Faq*.
They will most likely have a ton of new models (like the Tyranid dex did) that have good rules to say "Buy me". Sorry for Necro if this is old I have been away.
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Post by: gorgon
There was a rumor on Warseer that WBB will still be around, but it won't stay as is and it won't be FNP either.
Which is a good segue into saying that I think you'll see a fairly significant overhaul not unlike what Tyranids got. And personally I'm fine with that, especially if said refresh hits the following points:
1) More focus on psychology and the "fear" angle. The Necron concept borrows heavily from various horror influences, and other than two bad units and a bad piece of wargear you see very little of that in the army's gameplay.
2) Better org chart balance. Slots like Heavy Support have too few competitive options, while slots like FA have too many. That suggests additional vehicles, more differentiation between Wraiths and Scarabs, and a different approach (something...anything) to Pariahs. They need to be more different than Immortals, not more like them.
3) More focus on the Necrons. The C'tan got all the character in the current codex, while Necrons themselves are as boring as it gets, even the Lords. So I'm fine booting C'tan to Apoc if that means we get more interesting Necrons, especially the Lords. (rumors suggest that we will).
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Post by: Kevin949
I'd be down with more "fear effects" type stuff, especially if they implement a nice ability that makes it bypass fearless.
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Post by: ThatMG
I dont see how their is any way to cause fear becuase their is too many ways to get arround it. Fearless, Stubborn, and they shall know no fear, Leaders that give ld 10 to people near them + the major problem is fear wont affect models in vehicles so pfft. Also Fluff wise its dumb bar Imperial guard w/o Commissars no one would run from necrons. If its true it shows that GW does not want to make them competative vs Mech/MEQ as they should be because of Sm players QQ. FNP+ Fearless + New Vehicles + Updating units so that they are capable of what they are intended to do is really all that needed. Also FNP > WBB lol at that topic.
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Post by: Kevin949
Of course GW wants to make SM the most attractive option.
And I disagree with your opinion on FNP>WBB.
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Post by: asimo77
Most things have already been covered but just a couple ideas that might be interesting:
Let immortals fire in different settings kind of like Noise marines. Perhaps one setting could be numerous Heavy shots but with lower S and AP, a rapid fire/assault mode with less shots but better S and AP, and finally perhaps some sort of template?
Also I forget where but someone had an interesting idea where you could buy Stubborn and Fearless for your warriors (but every model in the squad has to have the same upgrade) the Stubborn upgrade was called Combat Logic or something while the Fearless one was Advanced Combat Logic or something like that. Of course this can be tweaked to make it more like ATSKNF. Or mayabe make this wargear for the lord, and he projects a Stubborn/Fearless aura?
An other idea was different Orb types, only one could be taken iirc they were something that makes the lord have the Artificer ability more or less, one that places models in a stasis field so they cant do anything for 1 turn or so but can't be damaged, there were some others too but I can't remember right now.
Of course I'm a total noob at WH40k so I have no idea if this stuff is super imba or not
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Post by: Haddi
As I think I posted before (I know as a proposed rule, but not sure if I posted in this thread)
I think Phase out needs to be re-hauled, and my take is
Phase Out
Once 75% of all core have been destroyed/removed from play/etc, roll a d6. 3+, you pass and stay in the game. Fail, you Phased out and lost. Every turn after the initial loss, the requirement is higher.
1st Turn 3+
2nd Turn 4+
3rd Turn 5+
4th Turn 6+
5th Turn Auto-Fail
And possibly have an upgrade for HQ that allows one to re-roll this, for a hefty price.
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Post by: zing165
I agree with almost every thing you said. I would love to see it in the new codex
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Post by: StasisNid95
i can also agree with the movement of the C'tan to apoc, but it will leave the necrons with a monotonous lord. I liked the idea i saw on another site of C'tan infused lords, say theres the NB version and a Dec version, The NB version would excel at CC, same as the Nightbringer, like say for example, his WS 6 and Str 7?? (dont know if this is OP too but it has to be less OP then Str 10  ), and a choice of at least 1 of the C'tan powers. same goes for the deciever. both lords could cost as much as a vanilla hive tyrant. i think this would be a nice and tasteful change. Automatically Appended Next Post: also the 'powers' point values can vary then added to models average cost.
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Post by: Masonicon
Well! I want the fluff behind nerfing of Necrons in their 5th edition codex: AdMech invents a special Bolter Rounds that designed to fight Necrons: it essentially a variant of Kraken Bolter round, except it's explosive charge are uses Specialized EMP that didn't just disables Necrodermis regeneration, it also disables their teleportation of necrons upon death
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Post by: master of ordinance
Basic crons stop being essentialy tac marines without the upgrades.
crons just stop being MEQs
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