And I guess your previous guess of 18 months away still holds?
something like that and 18 months ish, depending entirely on how many codexes we see next year, I understand there is another marine codex further away that may be bumped up if things go tits up on "crons" or "sob".
Vhalyar wrote:I'm curious if you still think that it'll be GK centric or some sort of combined Inquisition though.
there is definately an inquisition supplement/codex/thingamy/expansion/g-string that sounds likely for next year,
I do know it will feature a good few inquisitor's, their retinue and no bananas(that's entirely a guess, it may include bananas).
I believe (but don't know) that there will be no inquisitors in either the GK or SOB codexes/codecii/codecexii/cocodamol/coconuts,
however the inquisitor supplement/codex/thingamy/expansion/g-string will allow inquisitors to commandeer/ally with any imperial forces,
meaning you can still have inquisitors with your GK/SOB if you so wish.
There really is no "combined inquisition codex", it is complete wishlisting/chinese whispers
From Heresy Online, the latest bit of rumors on GW's plans for upcoming armies. If this turns out to be true, I think it'd be for the best as far as the Inquisition goes. Modernize the Inquisition units, and give them a supplement based specifically around the allies rules, so that it can be balanced the best it can without effecting the other armies in question (GK and SoB). This also goes along with most rumors that place DE as the next codex, to be released sometime later this year, and hints at a Necron codex sometime next year, which I'm certain Necron fans will be happy about.
edit: Standard caveats about rumors apply of course, but this does confirm the rumors the BoLS Lounge posters have been hearing for a while now.
Well, good to know that this "Bindi Baji" is admitting frankly that he is guessing a lot ("GK's are still not that far off, I believe january but after my last guess I will have to be careful with my choice of words.") and doesn't know much. Still he repeats what is the most believable set of rumours since March. This is how I summarized these rumours on 21st of March:
Kroothawk wrote:Just for the record: Current rumours supported by credible posters say the following:
1.) Both Grey Knights and Sororitas will get a new Codex EACH (not just one Inquisition Codex), both are currently worked on
2.) All Grey Knight models got a resculpt, many have been spotted by insiders. Standard GKs of course in plastic (Terminators?).
3.) Grey Knights seem to be the autumn SM Codex release. A Storm Raven release is part of that.
Less confirmed is the rumour, that both Codices do not include Inquisition or at least concentrate on non-Inquisition stuff, turning to Ecclesia in the case of Sororitas and that Inquisition will be part of separate rules (supplement? WD?). Still this rumour makes sense to me.
Edit: BTW Grey Knight Codex (again) by Phil Kelly, Sororitas Codex started by Andy Hoare before he left GW (GD confirmation, unknown who took over Sororitas Codex).
Overall, seems like a reasonable list of projects and order, getting the oldest codexes updated within the year plus. That would, IIRC, eliminate all the codexes with any ties to 3rd Edition. Then, there's a whole ****pile of codexes from 4th that need love. Seriously, quite a bit could be accomplished with a point cost adjustment and comprehensive FAQ/update. Could they not do that for the existing codexes? Oh, right, forgot this is GW I'm talking about...
Kroothawk wrote:Edit: BTW Grey Knight Codex (again) by Phil Kelly, Sororitas Codex started by Andy Hoare before he left GW (GD confirmation, unknown who took over Sororitas Codex).
A pity. Andy Hoare did a decent enough job with Sisters fluff in Dark Heresy.
Here's hoping they focus on the crusader knight ideal rather than the martyr one. The previous focus on martyrdom in the fluff leads to Sisters being depicted as fething retards.
The martyr theme has led to the majority of Sisters fluff being effectively "a bunch of sisters die here, and then a bunch of sisters die there, and they never win any battles".
If this were true, how would they release rules for Inquisitors? A whole new codex just for Inquisitors would be silly. Would the recent rules release for the Nightspinner be any indication of how it would be handled? I'm wondering how successful that was. Putting Inquisitors in a WD would sell a lot of copies.
I'm thinking a supplement for allies in normal games, much like the allies chart for apocalypse but toned down and regulated more for smaller points games. It could also have rules for mercenaries as well.
Brother SRM wrote:If this were true, how would they release rules for Inquisitors? A whole new codex just for Inquisitors would be silly. Would the recent rules release for the Nightspinner be any indication of how it would be handled? I'm wondering how successful that was. Putting Inquisitors in a WD would sell a lot of copies.
The only way that I can think of is by doing a "pure" Inquisitor list with all the different factions and all branches, as each would have a different set of special rules and allies.
Book would have a great amount of fluff in it IMO
Aduro wrote:I image it will look much like the old Assassins Codex, and be of similar size.
I would think that it would have to be thicker than the Assassins 'dex. You've got Inquisitors,all the different rules for the servitors in his retinue,Imperial Assassins,Death Cult Assassins,Daemonhosts,Penitent Engines,Arco-Flagellants,etc.
Fantasy battle had a Dogs of War supplement long ago with a variety of mercenaries. No reason GW couldn't roll the Inquisitors into something like that. God forbid the IG or SW live without their precious Mystics or anything.
1 - I love the Inqusition, the Shinny Space Marines do little for me but the crazy guys in dresses with their bondage ninjas and freaky midgets are pure win. Would hate to see them go away. I won't even add up how many models would be invalidated.
2 - If they're really getting a minidex, and it is a minidex NOT apoc rules or optional rules then hurray! I think GW's golden age was 2000-2005 when they practically had a new army list in every WD. I can't imagine why they stopped that.
I like the idea of 3 discrete documents, except for the fact that it clogs up an already criminally behind release schedule. The fact that we are well into 5th edition, and are just cleaning up 3rd ed books, is outrageous. If GW could get all their gak in one sock they would be amazing.
Not bitching, however. I mean hey, not even the most dedicated fanboi or grrl can seriously expect them to fix EVERYTHING that is fethed up in their corporate culture/business model anytime soon. I will take what I can get.
Melissia wrote:I'm thinking a supplement for allies in normal games, much like the allies chart for apocalypse but toned down and regulated more for smaller points games. It could also have rules for mercenaries as well.
I can't see this. Not after all the work they've done to excise "allies" and cross-book units from WHFB, and pulling the Daemons out of the CSM codex.
reds8n wrote: Andy Hoare left GW a month or two back. he's currently doing various bits of freelance work -- including some stuff for/with FFG and their Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader lines.
and he is also continuing to do some work for BL, he is now going to be the author of " The Hunt for Voldorius" from the "Space Marine Battles" series out next year.
AFAIK he was/had been doing the work on the Beastman book, i don't know how much of the final thing will be his work or others.
The Necron update is what's got me. I've always wanted to start a small Necron army, but the lack of choice in their range was a big "Meh" factor for me (Plus, 1-pose-warrior kits were way too much effort to convert/repose).
I'm very interested to see what sort of additions their range will get, as well as what sorts of rules updates they'll recieve. IF they do actually get around to it, that is.
Melissia wrote:They probably will. I imagine Necrons have the potential to be more profitable than, say, DE.
Well that depends. The big reasons DE became so unpopular are because they're so outdated, and because I take turds that look better than most of their range. Updated minis and rules will probably see a fresh lease on DE popularity.
The same argument could be made for Necron rules, Sisters metal miniatures and outdated rules, and Grey Knights outdated rules (strangely, GK players seem to prefer metal models...).
Melissia wrote:The same argument could be made for Necron rules, Sisters metal miniatures and outdated rules, and Grey Knights outdated rules (strangely, GK players seem to prefer metal models...).
probably so other marine players can't take their would be plastic bitz and convert things into awesome marines, where everyone and their gene-father has a halberd for a ccw. They probably like feeling special or something =/
I guess that's the problem with minority armies - it's hard to judge which ones will sell come update time, because they never had very big followings. 'Crons, DE, and Sisters were all very uncommon armies in my gaming experiences ranging from the start of 3rd to now. Hard to say what'll change at update time. Crons need a bigger range and more variety in poses and bits. DE need a new range in general. Sisters/WH/DH just need a plastic range to begin with. All of them need new rules.
I'm thinking DE will probably be the initial big seller, but I'll need to see any new unit stats and special rules before I'm -completely- convinced on this. Locally though, there're a lot of people that're highly anticipating the Coke-Elves release
There's also a lot of people waiting for plastic Sisters in order to get into the army, too.
You can't really judge Sisters very well, because let's face it-- the second edition codex was at the end of second edition, and didn't have time to get any real following before third edition came out. The third edition Sisters codex was a half-assed, craptacular codex whose primary selling attribute (listed on the first page in fact) was that it could be combined with other armies-- not its own list, not its own fluff, not its own models. They have gotten almost no fluff that actually paints them as an army that wins battles, and they have very little variety in official paint schemes.
GW has done a piss-poor job of giving the army a chance to grow, so it's impossible to argue either way. I, for example, can only argue that there will be more people who are into the army when it's plastic than when it's metal, because most people prefer plastic. I can't argue whether or not they'll be into the fluff, because quite frankly the fluff isn't all that good. I like the army as a concept, but the fluff from GW and BL depicts the army as one that always loses, gets wiped out, or falls to chaos (even though they're supposed to be resistant to that!).
The Sisters need a re-imagining as far as their fluff goes. The martyrdom aspect hasn't worked out at all, quite frankly an army of martyrs isn't going to appeal to many people. An army of holy soldiers-- emphasizing BOTH of those words, the holy aspect AND the soldier aspect-- I think would get more people into the army.
Think I covered the need for plastics... I think...
Metallifan wrote:Sisters/WH/DH just need a plastic range to begin with.
Yep. I did.
As far as Codi go, the same could be said for any of the three. Sisters aren't exactly the mangy small dog that GW kicks for sharts N giggles while the other two small dogs get plush pillows and only eat Caesar brand. Matter of fact, until recently, all three Codi were pretty much forgotten. By no means are any of them the sole victim of neglect. All three armies never had a chance to really "Grow".
DE Fluff was pretty shallow to begin with. It pretty much steals from Eldar Fluff until the fall, and then Stagnates because they're just sitting around shooting up. stealing, pillaging, and jacking off until the present setting.
Necron fluff was sort of intentionally left blank at first because they were supposed to be mysterious. Slowly, more was revealed about them and their fluff became more solid, but still, a lot of it was little more than "Necrons wake up. Necrons kill everything in sight. Necrons turn to consuming all non-sentient life on the planet. Necrons board Spaceships and move to next planet. Rinse, repeat."
There're some aspects of the Sororitas fluff that works. Some that doesn't. Same could be said for anything though (For example, why are Ultramarines impossible to freaking defeat? How has Abaddon NOT broken past Cadia yet?)
I think one of the biggest issues for the Sisters line is that they'll always be seen as "Female Space Marines". Sure, by fluff there couldn't be a more inaccurate summary. But a lot of people (GW Included, most likely) see them that way for obvious reasons. That's why I doubt that even whatever update they get won't really help much. They'd pretty much need a complete and utter overhaul from page one.
metallifan wrote:Necron fluff was sort of intentionally left blank at first because they were supposed to be mysterious. Slowly, more was revealed about them and their fluff became more solid, but still, a lot of it was little more than "Necrons wake up. Necrons kill everything in sight. Necrons turn to consuming all non-sentient life on the planet. Necrons board Spaceships and move to next planet. Rinse, repeat."
Yep. Which means their fluff says they actually win battles. Actually one of the first bits of Necron fluff was Sanctuary 101.
It's very hard to sell an army that never wins... all of the major fluff for Sisters involves them being wiped out, destroyed, corrupted, and often being idiotic through all of that. C:WH almost seems to brag about how the Order of Our Martyred Lady was all but wiped out on Armageddon, as if somehow GW is proud that the army cannot achieve victory.
People don't want to side with the losers in a battle...
Anarchyman99 wrote:Just wait till you can get 3 monoliths in one heavy support slot...the 9 mono drop doom army is comming!
I'll only buy it if they can Deepstrike too
Melissia wrote:
metallifan wrote:Necron fluff was sort of intentionally left blank at first because they were supposed to be mysterious. Slowly, more was revealed about them and their fluff became more solid, but still, a lot of it was little more than "Necrons wake up. Necrons kill everything in sight. Necrons turn to consuming all non-sentient life on the planet. Necrons board Spaceships and move to next planet. Rinse, repeat."
Yep. Which means their fluff says they actually win battles. Actually one of the first bits of Necron fluff was Sanctuary 101.
It's very hard to sell an army that never wins... all of the major fluff for Sisters involves them being wiped out, destroyed, corrupted, and often being idiotic through all of that. C:WH almost seems to brag about how the Order of Our Martyred Lady was all but wiped out on Armageddon, as if somehow GW is proud that the army cannot achieve victory.
People don't want to side with the losers in a battle...
The problem with 'Crons always winning is that it makes for a dull read. You know what's going to happen, and you know that they're harder to kill than "dat waskewy Wawboss" (I like to imagine Yarrick talks with Fudd-speech sometimes. Cracks me up )
Yea the Ordos Militant is dull in the same way for the opposite reason. Hence why I said that if GW doesn't want their tabletop element to go like Squat-flavoured Scooby-Snacks, they're gonna need to start all over from page one on them.
You mean Orders Militant... the "Holy Ordos" are the groups within the Inquisition (three major groups), while the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas are, well, part of their own organization, separate from the Inquisition.
Crons has always been a very boring army and I think that will stick with them until GW makes an effort to make them interesting. Hell they were more interesting when they were just an article than they were as an actual codex army. DE on the other hand usually win big or lose hard and people usually remember the wins than the losses. Sisters I would actually like to play them if they had an actually army with plastic and none of that goofy stuff that came with their 3rd edition codex.
Now that rumors are going around about new DE people are getting pumped for them, I've had people come ask me if I knew anything about them since I tend to keep my ear open to any DE related stuff, I mean guys who always played space marines and such.
Anarchyman99 wrote:Just wait till you can get 3 monoliths in one heavy support slot...the 9 mono drop doom army is comming!
I'll only buy it if they can Deepstrike too
Melissia wrote:
metallifan wrote:Necron fluff was sort of intentionally left blank at first because they were supposed to be mysterious. Slowly, more was revealed about them and their fluff became more solid, but still, a lot of it was little more than "Necrons wake up. Necrons kill everything in sight. Necrons turn to consuming all non-sentient life on the planet. Necrons board Spaceships and move to next planet. Rinse, repeat."
Yep. Which means their fluff says they actually win battles. Actually one of the first bits of Necron fluff was Sanctuary 101.
It's very hard to sell an army that never wins... all of the major fluff for Sisters involves them being wiped out, destroyed, corrupted, and often being idiotic through all of that. C:WH almost seems to brag about how the Order of Our Martyred Lady was all but wiped out on Armageddon, as if somehow GW is proud that the army cannot achieve victory.
People don't want to side with the losers in a battle...
The problem with 'Crons always winning is that it makes for a dull read. You know what's going to happen, and you know that they're harder to kill than "dat waskewy Wawboss" (I like to imagine Yarrick talks with Fudd-speech sometimes. Cracks me up )
Yea the Ordos Militant is dull in the same way for the opposite reason. Hence why I said that if GW doesn't want their tabletop element to go like Squat-flavoured Scooby-Snacks, they're gonna need to start all over from page one on them.
Dammit metallifan, count me as sigged 10 times.
As for Crons, I personally think they could, with ease, make them an exciting army. I mean really, they are pretty close to being the "Oh man they are so GOTH...... WE HAVE TO PLAY THEM!" Or the first army that hot topic sells. Im sure Im stretching it a bit, but they can be, fluff wise hardcore awesome. Their gods eat stars, they are friggin hard to kill, come back to life, their weapons just melt things.
I just hope that when its update time, they get a good one, not over powered but a good one. Adding a few things to their list because some people are so bored with them for some reason, and giving them a decent resculpt maybe? I personally like the look of the Necron warriors, but some of the others maybe? Definitely the Immortals for one, I mean alot of people think Immortals are where its at, and no one buys the metal ones, they are ALWAYS converted warriors and for good reason
You know, just to jump in here with my 2 cents. I like my sisters army. Of all the armies I have and have dabbled in, I think I have had the most fun playing them. It is a ridiculously amusing army to play. Sometimes I have been stomped, other times I have beaten the stuffing out of people. I would be no means characterize it as an army that only loses. Admittedly, I dont have the depth of background some appear to here (Mistress of minis most notably,she appears to really know them quite well!), but I just dont see them as an army that loses all the time, on the table top or in the fluff. Maybe they lose more in the fluff, but I have used them to quite a bit of success gaming. And I am a half-ass player at best.
I really want to see how the =][= turns out, i have been thinking about adding an inquisitor into my guard army but put it off thinking i will lose them in the new codex if they remove the allies thing which people seem to think is very likely to happen.
1 - I love the Inqusition, the Shinny Space Marines do little for me but the crazy guys in dresses with their bondage ninjas and freaky midgets are pure win. Would hate to see them go away. I won't even add up how many models would be invalidated.
2 - If they're really getting a minidex, and it is a minidex NOT apoc rules or optional rules then hurray! I think GW's golden age was 2000-2005 when they practically had a new army list in every WD. I can't imagine why they stopped that.
This.
A mini-dex is better than combined one or none at all.
Melissia wrote:It's very hard to sell an army that never wins... all of the major fluff for Sisters involves them being wiped out, destroyed, corrupted, and often being idiotic through all of that. C:WH almost seems to brag about how the Order of Our Martyred Lady was all but wiped out on Armageddon, as if somehow GW is proud that the army cannot achieve victory.
People don't want to side with the losers in a battle...
I will only once take part in the usual Sororitas off topic discussion:
1.) As I told you repeatedly, a Sororitas army wins in the novel "Grey Knights", and Soul Storm presents them in a good light as well. So please stop spreading false information that they always lose.
2.) People play IG, people play Elysian drop troops. And IIRC, even FW has to deliver just one battle, where their own IG chapter is not losing utterly.
grizgrin wrote:You know, just to jump in here with my 2 cents. I like my sisters army. Of all the armies I have and have dabbled in, I think I have had the most fun playing them. It is a ridiculously amusing army to play. Sometimes I have been stomped, other times I have beaten the stuffing out of people. I would be no means characterize it as an army that only loses. Admittedly, I dont have the depth of background some appear to here (Mistress of minis most notably,she appears to really know them quite well!), but I just dont see them as an army that loses all the time, on the table top or in the fluff. Maybe they lose more in the fluff, but I have used them to quite a bit of success gaming. And I am a half-ass player at best.
In tabletop, my sisters army wins more than it loses (appx 1.35:1 win loss ratio, with the new IG-- before 5E C:IG, it was 1.5:1. It's hard for the army to deal with lots of autocannons and AP3 large blasts mostly).
But in fluff?
Let's look at examples of fluff:
Armageddon: Wiped out by Orks (total loss for one Order, the other Order forced to withdraw due to the Flesh Tearers' blood rage)
Sanctuary 101: Wiped out by Necrons (total loss)
Ophelia VII: Wiped out by Tyranids (phyrric victory: managed to let the civilian population evacuate)
Sons of Malice fluff: Wiped out by the Sons of Malice (total loss, sacrificed to the dark gods)
Duty Calls: Wiped out by Tyranids (total loss)
Cain's Last Stand: Wiped out by Chaos (total loss: Entire order of Sisters turns to Chaos, is then purged)
Redemption Corps: Wiped out by Chaos (total loss: Entire order of Sisters turns to Chaos, is then purged)
Grey Knights: Wiped out by Chaos (phyrric victory: no survivors, only a few Grey Knights live)
Imperial Armour: Wiped out by rogue Inquisitor (total loss)
Aside from C:SoB and C:WH, which both list a few fluff bits where they aren't utterly destroyed and actually manage to achieve a victory that doesn't wipe them out completely, Sisters are treated remarkably poorly by GW. It's as if they got the Sisters confused with the Lamentors.
Kroothawk: Yes, you did indeed help prove my point. Even when the Sisters are allowed to win, they don't really win because they're all dead.
reds8n wrote: Andy Hoare left GW a month or two back. he's currently doing various bits of freelance work -- including some stuff for/with FFG and their Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader lines.
and he is also continuing to do some work for BL, he is now going to be the author of " The Hunt for Voldorius" from the "Space Marine Battles" series out next year.
AFAIK he was/had been doing the work on the Beastman book, i don't know how much of the final thing will be his work or others.
Grey Knights: Wiped out by Chaos (phyrric victory: no survivors, only a few Grey Knights live)
Kroothawk: Yes, you did indeed help prove my point. Even when the Sisters are allowed to win, they don't really win because they're all dead.
Too bad that I am persistent and have the book right beside me. Here the relevant quotes from the end of "Grey Knight":
Spoiler:
The surviving Sisters of the Bloody Rose added their firepower, too, their one remaining Exorcist tank sending rockets streaking into Ghargatuloth. (...)
The Sisters joined in, intoning prayers of righteous wrath as they blasted Ghargatuloth to pulp with their bolter fire and the Sisters Superior laid into it with their chainswords.(...)
The Sisters of the Bloody Rose were recovering their own dead, and Alaric had watched as they took away the body of their canoness from what remained of the steps up to the tomb.
(pages 404-406 with Ghargatuloth being the final enemy)
So no wipe out, but a hard and glorious victory.
Guess my memory is better than your reading skills Maybe I should check the other sources that you mention as well at one time to stop the whining.
Still, suffering is a major theme of 40k mankind in general and ecclesiarchy in specific. So it is fluffy.
And don't let me tell you about the suffering that the Eldar (and Eldar fans) had to endure by C.S.Goto and others (Goto having a record of torturing an already injured female Farseer for 180 pages until she is finally allowed to die -> "Dawn of War: Tempest" , with Harlequins always ending in "piles of mutilated bodies" in no time, no joke! ). Eldar Avatar killings are a running gag among BL and GW authors, with Fulgrim choking one to death even while they don't even breath!
Id rather see Sisters get the first new codex in 6ed than the last in 5ed. If I recall correctly sisters have always been in the last codex before a new edition, making allot of their rules obsolete in just a few months time.
Has sisters ever gotten more than 6months of playtime in a current edition before a new one comes out?
Im starting to feel that a new codex would be a complete waste, if its due in 18month time how much time does that leave before the next edition? Are we then to wait for until 8ed before the codex is updated again? and obsolete when 9ed comes out the month after.
Kroothawk wrote:Guess my memory is better than your memory
Fixed. I don't have the book in front of me to look it up, and was going off of memory
Regardless, one example in your favor does not prove your point when the overwhelming number of other examples says otherwise. If you do wish to research those other ones that I mentioned, go ahead and do so-- I'm pulling them from memory, but a quick search on the net and on lexicanum confirms the majority of them to me.
Nor does C.S.Goto's abuse of Eldar make any difference-- I mean seriously, does anyone even bother reading that author's trash anymore? Sure, most authors sacrifice a bit of fluff to tell a story better, but Goto doesn't tell a good story AND he sacrifices a crapton of fluff. I certainly don't disagree that they abuse the Avatar too much, but the fact that GW is idiotic in how they treat one aspect of their fluff doesn't mean that they are not also idiotic in how they treat another aspect.
The faction losing battles doesn't bother me, that's part of war, and part of 40k. The lack of victories, however does. How the feth do Sisters supposedly have veterans if they never win battles? Celestians and Seraphim are units composed entirely of veterans, and veterans often lead squads (and indeed, Celestians and Seraphim have the skill and agility to match an Astartes in close combat)-- yet so frequently they're just wiped out.
Sure, you can mention a single book where they win battles, but let me emphasize that properly for you: ONE. SINGLE. BOOK. That is no victory for your side of the argument, it only emphasizes mine. Even if you include Faith and Fire (which is arguable, but I can see why one would take that position), it still leaves the vast majority of fluff with the Sisters as the losers. And so the entire point of my argument, which you seemed to have missed, is that GW really needs to rethink how they treat the Sisters, and other older factions. They need to have them actually win battles occasionally. I would also argue they need to have a piece of fluff where an Eldar Avatar tears half a company of Marines apart before it's taken down.
That way people think "Damn, that is badass! I want one of THOSE in my army!" Not "Heh, he got b****slapped by Calgar". Same with Sisters-- currently GW's focus on Sisters is martyrdom . Losing. Phyrric victories. Being destroyed. That needs to change to help the faction grow.
Kroothawk wrote:Guess my memory is better than your reading skills
Is being rude in a discussion about the fictional setting of a game of toy soldiers better than being allowed to continue posting?
Seriously, folks, I'm going to make this a general warning: When discussing the make-believe universe inhabited by your toy soldiers, keep it civil. We've had too many discussions lately descend into insults and snarkiness. The 40K fluff is twisted, confused and (sometimes deliberately) contradictory. It is perfectly understandable, and allowable, for someone to have a different opinion on it to your own. If you think someone is incorrect on a point of fluff, and for the sake of the stability of the universe feel that this must be corrected, do so in a polite fashion.
If you can not participate in this sort of discussion and stay civil, I would strongly recommend just staying out of this sort of discussion.
The mix of zealotry, faith, and martyrdom is the defining characteristic of the SOB.
The gothic "nuns w/ guns" aesthetic and the whole "willing to die in service to the Emperor" vibe is what makes them so appealing personally.
I just wish GW would give them their proper due and do a full blown Codex: ecclessirachy/Armies of Faith. I want zealot rabble with flamers and mob weapons, crusading Confessors, frothing priests, penitent engines, arco-flaggellants, SOB, etc. rushing to their deaths in the name of the Emperor...
This is such an important part of the 40K fluff, grimdark imagery and character of the Imperium.
GW's refusal to do a proper army of this type with SOB at the core is criminal...
SOB are most likely gonna go the way of LATD and Genestealer cult, and even if they dont I expect they will get shoehorned into a new =I= codex.
No thanks GW, I'm sick of waiting to be let down and have started selling off my SOB collection...
An Allies supplement along the same vein as Apoc/CoD/Battle Missions/Planetstrike would be a good idea actually.
It creates a sub-game and an optional set of rules for allowing the mixing of armies and allied units.
that would be a good place to put
- vast imperial forces led by Inquisitors
- rules for combining real daemons with chaos marines (and maybe latd making a return)
- expanded harlequin forces working with either eldar or de - kroot mercs working with either orks or tau
- expanded alien races for tau
nids and necrons get left out in the cold though
As for popularity, DE were a dud on arrival but they've stuck around. Most DE players like their fluff and concept but want more of it. Their playstule is well defined and hard as nails. Every player hates their model range. Give them a new "good" model range and you'll get sales.
GK were very popular at launch, at least in my area, but people quicly cottoned onto the fact that the army was pants. Aside from a few units kept as allies all the GK armies got flogged on Ebay. New rules that make them competitive would go a long way to raising sales since they're models are popular and the fluff is popular.
Necrons were phenomenally popular at launch. I think practically every gamer at my store bought a Necron army at the end of 3rd. They then settled down into a big army but got progressively less popular as their rules got worse, and worse and worse.
Sisters have largely been unpopular because they have no plastics and require a lot of models to play. That means they're expensive. Plus they're girls, eww, cooties! Not my own opinion, i love sisters, but the girly army stigma and high cost has kept them fairly niche. they have great fluff, great models and great rules though. I think if given some plastics they'd sell much better than they do presently.
Theyre girls? Horse faces with pageboy haircuts do not make them a "girly army" to me!
Maybe if they were malibu barbie with bolters and furry boots Id consider them too girlish.. They do seriously need new models
All of the "expansion team" (Tau, necron, DE, WH and DH) armies suffer more or less the same problems.. Lack of diversity and barely updated rules. Tau atleast got a 4th ed codex (not huge changes but changes none the less) but I think every army should be able to shoot and do CC for variety purposes
Even IG can kick some ass in CC with blob squads, commissars and straken
The core armies (Marines, chaos, eldar, IG, nids and orks) all are very multi-faceted, dynamic and interesting... You'll see lots of different builds that can actually do average. Id be surprised if I saw more than 2 different builds for the expansion teams that do "average".. However, they are plenty of builds that lose horribly. Variety makes the armies in the "core" group so much more fun to play (eldar however is really only in the core group because its been around forever.. its variety is sorely lacking)
Luke_Prowler wrote:I foresee a stand alone GK codex either being another SPESS MAHREENS BUT MORE! codex or low model count from high point cost making it uncompetitive.
Low model count doesn't have to be uncompetitive. They just have to make up for lack of models with appropriate badassery.
Luke_Prowler wrote:I foresee a stand alone GK codex either being another SPESS MAHREENS BUT MORE! codex or low model count from high point cost making it uncompetitive.
Low model count doesn't have to be uncompetitive. They just have to make up for lack of models with appropriate badassery.
And that's normally true, when you have cases like Vanilla marines vs 'nids. However, you get to a point were the number of wounds you can throw out can't catch up to cost of the unit. Let's assume that GKs are still 25 each (except the Justicar, who are now a modest 30). A full 10 unit is 255 (baring any upgrades). Against Orks in the shooting phase, they can kill 6-7 orks. that's 36-42 points back. 23 Orks shoot back. 2-3 dead grey knights, 50-75 points back. Even worse, high cost means less points for specialized units who could handle more dangerous foes. Now obviously, balance can still be achieved, but there's a good chance that they'll have a hard time fighting
CT GAMER wrote:
SOB are most likely gonna go the way of LATD and Genestealer cult, and even if they dont I expect they will get shoehorned into a new =I= codex.
No thanks GW, I'm sick of waiting to be let down and have started selling off my SOB collection...
huh. Hadn't even thought of this possibility. What the hell would I DO with all those sororitas if they got Squat'ed? I suppose i could fold them into the ranks of my IG, but that's a lot of counts as bolters for flashlights. And I have shovelfuls of IG. Suggestions?
bravelybravesirrobin wrote:An Allies supplement along the same vein as Apoc/CoD/Battle Missions/Planetstrike would be a good idea actually.
It creates a sub-game and an optional set of rules for allowing the mixing of armies and allied units.
that would be a good place to put
- vast imperial forces led by Inquisitors
- rules for combining real daemons with chaos marines (and maybe latd making a return)
- expanded harlequin forces working with either eldar or de - kroot mercs working with either orks or tau
- expanded alien races for tau
nids and necrons get left out in the cold though
This is a great idea! For Eldar you could also add Exodites and Corsairs, too. 'nids could get genestealer cults and something similar could be created for Necrons. Like groups that have been duped by the Deciever into rebellion, only to be betrayed by the Necrons later. Neither cult would truly be an "ally", but the allied models wouldn't know they're going to get eaten until after the battle.
This would be a great foundation for the much-desired 40K Dogs of War.
As for changes to upcoming model lines, whenever my favorite lines get redone I always want good models first and good rules (meaning fun and balanced, not over-powered) second, good prices third. Not much else really matters to me after that. Getting upset about the army's backstory is about as baffling to me as being upset about the painting on the cover of their codex.
CT GAMER wrote:
SOB are most likely gonna go the way of LATD and Genestealer cult, and even if they dont I expect they will get shoehorned into a new =I= codex.
No thanks GW, I'm sick of waiting to be let down and have started selling off my SOB collection...
huh. Hadn't even thought of this possibility. What the hell would I DO with all those sororitas if they got Squat'ed? I suppose i could fold them into the ranks of my IG, but that's a lot of counts as bolters for flashlights. And I have shovelfuls of IG. Suggestions?
For every army not yet released, expect someone to tell you that this army will get squatted. But it won't. Sororitas will come ... in a separate Codex ... started by Andy Hoare and taken over by someone else ... as confirmed by GW on a GD.
The Inquisition isn't an army it is a way of combining various allied forces together.
The proposed Allies codex would be the place to put this.
The problem when combining forces is that each separate army is supposed to have weaknesses to offset its strengths. If you are able to combine allies which cover each others' weaknesses you end up with a super army.
So an Inquisitor list needs careful design to stop it being too powerful.
Kilkrazy wrote:The Inquisition isn't an army it is a way of combining various allied forces together.
The proposed Allies codex would be the place to put this.
The problem when combining forces is that each separate army is supposed to have weaknesses to offset its strengths. If you are able to combine allies which cover each others' weaknesses you end up with a super army.
So an Inquisitor list needs careful design to stop it being too powerful.
I see where you are coming from but isn't the purpose of allies to offset known weaknesses with strengths brought in from an allied force.
And also the 2nd ed SoB dex mentioned that the Sisters have several very obvious weaknesses written in so you would ally to offset that.
Hardly a way to attract potential buyers, but none the less, that is what GW thought at the time.
There have been far, far fewer inquisition rumors, than Sisters rumors or Grey Knights rumors. As far as from the most reliable sources go, what I've heard leaves two possibilities:
WH and DH codices with a focus on the Sisters and Grey Knights, no allies rules, and little expansion for the Inquisition
(this seems unlikely given the most recent rumors)
Sisters and Grey Knights codices, and an Inquisition supplement.
(this seems most likely, but we don't quite know yet)
I see where you are coming from but isn't the purpose of allies to offset known weaknesses with strengths brought in from an allied force.
And also the 2nd ed SoB dex mentioned that the Sisters have several very obvious weaknesses written in so you would ally to offset that.
Hardly a way to attract potential buyers, but none the less, that is what GW thought at the time.
Sadly the current ally rules don't do it that well for WH that is. IG plug a hole with allying DH in. Space Marines gain nothing from allying WH and they can plug the same hole as IG do for allying DH in. Guard models will be taking away points that matter for the strength of Sisters as the more guard I field the less Sisters I'll be fielding. It then becomes a point where I should just field a guard army, if I am throwing down more guard models than Sisters.
For the record everybody could ally in 2nd edition. In fact a percentage of points was allocated for such in every codex.
Melissia wrote:The martyr theme has led to the majority of Sisters fluff being effectively "a bunch of sisters die here, and then a bunch of sisters die there, and they never win any battles".
That does not attract new players to the army.
Assuming, of course, that said new players are in it for the fluff and not for some other reason.
Also, some of these rumors go against some of the others who mentioned a couple of inquisitors who might be included. However, it's all just hearsay anyway, isn't it?
Melissia wrote:The same argument could be made for Necron rules, Sisters metal miniatures and outdated rules, and Grey Knights outdated rules (strangely, GK players seem to prefer metal models...).
To clarify,I wouldn't say that GK players prefer metals,because me and the others that I know have played the army prefer plastics,and I'm very much looking forward to some new plastic GK stuff. However,I don't mind the metal so much because typical 2k GK list was 1 GM w/7-man retinue in a LRC,a 5 man GK Termie squad in a regular LR,a Dread,and 2 10 man GK squads(one may have been a short squad of 9,it's been awhile). When you throw that few mini's out on the table,well,metal just doesn't matter as much. Outdated rules have gotten me away from playing them,though.
puma713 wrote:Assuming, of course, that said new players are in it for the fluff and not for some other reason.
Quite a few people are. Others are attracted to the models, but don't want to paint metal. Others are attracted to the rules, but they're getting weaker as each new fifth edition codex is released (because everything else is getting stronger while they sit in limbo).
All of these things can be rectified. Plastic models, new fluff that doesn't make them complete losers, and new rules which compete with fifth edition-- how much would this improve their profitability? Quite a bit, I imagine, but then that's not a very high hurdle to jump.
I'd prefer a slight redesign (of just the chest and abdomen) portion myself to make it look more like platemail. Would make it look less like they're wearing their underwear outside of their armor.
Melissia wrote:There's also a lot of people waiting for plastic Sisters in order to get into the army, too.
You can't really judge Sisters very well, because let's face it-- the second edition codex was at the end of second edition, and didn't have time to get any real following before third edition came out. The third edition Sisters codex was a half-assed, craptacular codex whose primary selling attribute (listed on the first page in fact) was that it could be combined with other armies-- not its own list, not its own fluff, not its own models. They have gotten almost no fluff that actually paints them as an army that wins battles, and they have very little variety in official paint schemes.
GW has done a piss-poor job of giving the army a chance to grow, so it's impossible to argue either way. I, for example, can only argue that there will be more people who are into the army when it's plastic than when it's metal, because most people prefer plastic. I can't argue whether or not they'll be into the fluff, because quite frankly the fluff isn't all that good. I like the army as a concept, but the fluff from GW and BL depicts the army as one that always loses, gets wiped out, or falls to chaos (even though they're supposed to be resistant to that!).
The Sisters need a re-imagining as far as their fluff goes. The martyrdom aspect hasn't worked out at all, quite frankly an army of martyrs isn't going to appeal to many people. An army of holy soldiers-- emphasizing BOTH of those words, the holy aspect AND the soldier aspect-- I think would get more people into the army.
Well,I haven't touched my WH/SoB in probably going on 5 years now,but I'm definately waiting on platics to try and fix it into a playable army that actually has a snowball's chance of winning. No,I didn't do 'mech SoB's,which is pretty much the only way you could ever play them.
To me,it wasn't so much the combined forces aspect. It was that the entire army list was pretty much based around dice luck. Every game of 40k is somewhat based around dice luck,but it's magnified in the case of the WH's 'dex. You have models like the Exorcist which are ridiculously awesome if you roll a 6 for their number of shots,but then stink if you drop a 1. You've got spontaniously combusting Arco's. So much of your strategy revolves around whether you can hit this "coin flip" roll to get an Act of Faith off. "Sorry Sister Sarah,you just didn't pray to the Emperor enough today,so now your whole squad is doomed!" The whole randomness of the army just really did not work for me at all as a concept. It sounded fun,but never really worked out all that well for me.
They definately need to be reimagined,and not just from a fluff standpoint,either. The SoB are depicted,to a certain extent,the Chicago Cubs of 40k,but the way faith works in their game mechanics just work well. They have power armor and bolters...but they sit around waiting for divine intervention in order to win. Seriously? An army just doesn't seem terribly cool if it needs 6-7 minor miracles to win a small battle. Faith is a big part of the SoB,but it needs to implemented throughout the army list in a better fashion,IMO. I think that would do a whole lot more to attract people to the army than fluff depictions of Kharne the Betrayer lying prostrate before a Cannoness,licking her boots and begging for mercy before she curb stomps him into oblivion.
I agree that the army list needs to be reworked to be more effective, but the army DOES need to be depicted as winning battles occasionally in order to attract people from a fluff standpoint. If the army's always losing, why play it?
It goes with how they're building the fifth edition codices, too: Aggrandizing the fluff of the factions.
To me,it wasn't so much the combined forces aspect. It was that the entire army list was pretty much based around dice luck. Every game of 40k is somewhat based around dice luck,but it's magnified in the case of the WH's 'dex. You have models like the Exorcist which are ridiculously awesome if you roll a 6 for their number of shots,but then stink if you drop a 1. You've got spontaniously combusting Arco's. So much of your strategy revolves around whether you can hit this "coin flip" roll to get an Act of Faith off. "Sorry Sister Sarah,you just didn't pray to the Emperor enough today,so now your whole squad is doomed!" The whole randomness of the army just really did not work for me at all as a concept. It sounded fun,but never really worked out all that well for me.
They definately need to be reimagined,and not just from a fluff standpoint,either. The SoB are depicted,to a certain extent,the Chicago Cubs of 40k,but the way faith works in their game mechanics just work well. They have power armor and bolters...but they sit around waiting for divine intervention in order to win. Seriously? An army just doesn't seem terribly cool if it needs 6-7 minor miracles to win a small battle. Faith is a big part of the SoB,but it needs to implemented throughout the army list in a better fashion,IMO.
This thread is far from rumors now, but...
I disagree. Sisters are not random if you play them right. No more than guard with orders or necrons with WBB or any psychic army with psychic tests. The key to faith is knowing which powers work for which size units. Sure, if you run 7-8 girl units and try to make a faith check you are just asking to fail. But if you run small units who want to be invulnerable and large units that want to ignore armor, you will succeed. Thinking is as big a part of SoB as luck.
Sisters need an update, sure... But damn, look back at some of the quotes in this thread. You'd think that SoB were the bastard step-children of satan himself. People need to chill on the hyperbole. Making yourself a Martyr for the SoB cause does not get them updated any faster.
An amusing play on words, but I was hardly speaking in hyperbole when I said the Sisters aren't really allowed to win in the fluff.
And his complaint about the Exorcist is valid I think. Considering that's pretty much our only HS choice that's worth taking. Acts of Faith probably need to be simplified, probably into something closer to Orders if my guess is right. Dunno what GW will do-- I don't mind them how they are now, but I know people have complained. But then people always complain.
Melissia wrote:An amusing play on words, but I was hardly speaking in hyperbole when I said the Sisters aren't really allowed to win in the fluff.
No, you kind of are. Hyperbole: extravagant exaggeration.
Codex: WH P27, successful suppression of heretics without loss of Canoness.
P47, the Celestine Crusade 'Hundreds of thousands of heretics met a fiery end at the hands of her armies' (edit: enemies was funnier)
I just spent two minutes in the Codex and found exceptions to your rules. And don't give me 'But Celestine died...' of course she did. Everyone dies.
And his complaint about the Exorcist is valid I think. Considering that's pretty much our only HS choice that's worth taking.
Sure, the Exorcist is Random. So is a Lascannon Predator, or a Vindicator. They just happen to be three different kinds of random.
But then people always complain.
I completely agree.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and Armageddon wasn't a total loss. After initial loss (who didn't lose initially at Armageddon), they were instrumental in winning.
Armageddon wrote:
With the massive destruction at Tempestora, reminiscent of the Tyranids' destruction of the Ultramarines at Ultramar, the Order of Our Martyred Lady was devastated and left with less than three companies upon Armageddon. The loss of Tempestora's Sanctorum devastated the morale of the Sisterhood, and they fought to recover from such a dishonor. Though they lost greatly at the beginning of the campaign, their aid was essential in the final defense of the planet.[6]
On the other side of Armageddon, the Order of the Argent Shroud, with its five companies under the leadership of Canoness Carmina, were used by General Kurov in the Fire Deserts during the war. They later joined with their fellow Sisters to retake the Holy Sanctorum and restore their lost honor.
pretre wrote:I just spent two minutes in the Codex and found exceptions to your rules. And don't give me 'But Celestine died...' of course she did. Everyone dies.
I wasn't exaggerating. I gave examples to prove my point-- and I mentioned that C:WH does indeed have a few fluff bits of Sisters achieving victory. But there's very little of it outside of the faction's own codex.
And I mentioned the fact that another Order was there in my list They were forced to pull back after the Flesh Tearers went berserk, but weren't so utterly destroyed in the battle (which has been mostly victorious).
pretre wrote:I just spent two minutes in the Codex and found exceptions to your rules.
Or you could have read the previous page in this thread to find out that her claims are wrong.
Anyway, how about making this thread more on topic than off topic? Not every Sororitas thread must/should lead to long off topic flame wars.
I have always wanted to play them from the fluff, but due to money and lack of availability to buy the models (local GW doesn't even have em) has always stopped me
please GW I'm sure I'm not the only one that wants them
I'd be interested in starting a DE army, so long as they made the new models match the better artwork from the codex (seriously, why can't they look like this?), and the fluff still depicts them as the S&M army.
Aduro wrote:I think Sisters should stick with the Martyr theme. You've already got Black Templar for the crusading knights ideal.
Agreed. It fits them better I think as well, irrespective of who had it first
I really want to see a bigger/more comprehensive SoB codex though, although i'll honestly be annoyed if they cut the inquisitors out of it... It just doesn't make much sense to me to do that.
Aduro wrote:I think Sisters should stick with the Martyr theme. You've already got Black Templar for the crusading knights ideal.
Agreed. It fits them better I think as well, irrespective of who had it first
I really want to see a bigger/more comprehensive SoB codex though, although i'll honestly be annoyed if they cut the inquisitors out of it... It just doesn't make much sense to me to do that.
It doesn't fit them better, it just makes them into the butt-monkey of the 40k universe.
Adding in Inquisitors never made sense to me why they stuffed it in in the first place, so I won't miss them if/when they're removed...
Melissia wrote:It doesn't fit them better, it just makes them into the butt-monkey of the 40k universe.
What does that even mean?
Melissia wrote:Adding in Inquisitors never made sense to me why they stuffed it in in the first place
Because they changed the fluff, something they do often and without warning, and something that makes your staunch view on what Sisters 'are' so hilarious, given how many times it's been changed.
Melissia wrote:...so I won't miss them if/when they're removed...
Those of us with extensive Inquisitorial armies tend to hate statements like that one. Were I to say "If Sisters were to get squatted, I wouldn't care", you'd no doubt be calling for my blood, so try to have a little bit of compassion for those of us who will be losing yet another army whilst you get to keep your oh-so-precious Sisters of fething Battle.
Melissia wrote:
It doesn't fit them better, it just makes them into the butt-monkey of the 40k universe.
Adding in Inquisitors never made sense to me why they stuffed it in in the first place, so I won't miss them if/when they're removed...
See I just don't agree there, admittedly I never got to play SoB back in 2nd Edition, but the whole theme of the "completely devoted until death" religous style fits the sisters way better than crusading knights... I mean, even look at what they (I assume) are based on; Joan of Arc. A martyr. I like the new style, and i certainly don't think it lessens their importance in the 40k universe, nor does it make them seem any less awesome an army to use...
As for the Inquisitors, i love them. They add an interesting element to the armies, are (IMO) awesome HQ units, and just generally seem to fit with the style of both the SoB Codex and the DH codex... I'll be pretty annoyed if they get rid of them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Those of us with extensive Inquisitorial armies tend to hate statements like that one. Were I to say "If Sisters were to get squatted, I wouldn't care", you'd no doubt be calling for my blood, so try to have a little bit of compassion for those of us who will be losing yet another army whilst you get to keep your oh-so-precious Sisters of fething Battle.
Mellisia, you seem pretty pissed off about the SoB. You keep pointing out parts that make them weak, or fluff that you don't like. Yet when anyone is against them, you call for blood (I've seen it in other threads too). Well, what I want to know is: If you think the Sisters are so weak, than why not pick up another army? Stop playing them for a while, and wait for the new rules. You'll be refreshed when you pick them up again. Or, STOP COMPLAINING. Bad rules and expensive models aren't the end of the world. I am thinking of starting a GK army, which has, by my reckoning, bad rules and expensive models. So call out the good in the Sisters, not the bad. Maybe people will play them if you tell us all the reasons you like them so much. Or, if you think there is no good, and you are playing Sisters just so you can complain, than please keep your complaints to yourself, far too many of these topics are becoming SoB flame wars.
Back on topic: I would love to see Inquisitors in the Daemonhuters/Which-hunters Codex. They add a lot of character. And, they let you use Assassins, which, if my proxy battles are a judge, are amazing. I don't like Daemonhosts in the Daemonhunters army though. It seems so counter productive.
2: And yet, it still makes zero sense. Retconning doesn't justify everything. One could retcon Calgar to actually be the Emperor in disguise, but it wouldn't make sense either.
3: I never suggested the Inquisition get squatted. I just want them out of MY damn codex. Face it, your "army" was effectively copy/pasted from the DH codex into what was supposed to be a Sisters of Battle codex, and the ONLY reason they did this was to advertise for the Inquisitor specialist game.
Let the Inquisition get their own book, which is exactly what the rumor mentioned in the first post of this thread suggests will happen, and something which, you should note, is something I support.
Back on topic: I would love to see Inquisitors in the Daemonhuters/Which-hunters Codex. They add a lot of character. And, they let you use Assassins, which, if my proxy battles are a judge, are amazing. I don't like Daemonhosts in the Daemonhunters army though. It seems so counter productive.
It does, but by the same token it gives players options. If you like the Daemonhosts and Inquisitors and don't mind/like using allied units or the Guardsmen, it's just another choice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote:
3: I never suggested the Inquisition get squatted. I just want them out of MY damn codex. Let the Inquisition get their own codex.
I dunno dude... Having them in each individual codex (WH and DH) made sense to me as the way it was explained in the codices was that each faction of the Inquisition is intrinsically linked to each of the different orders (Ordo Malleus are linked with Daemonhunters for obvious reasons, Ordo Hereticus with Witch Hunters/SoB etc..)... I really liked the addition, and (without some serious additions to the codices), the SoB and DH would have next to no individual units to choose from if it weren't for the Inquisition choices.
Like was said before as well, the addition of the Inquisitors gives yet more choice as it allows for the use of assassins, not to mention the more obvious and (imo) appropriate use of allies.
LORDEATSALOT wrote:Melissia, you seem pretty pissed off about the SoB.
[spelling correction mine]
[snip]
No, I am pissed off at GW's handling of them.
I point out parts of their army list that makes them weak-- in a thread DIRECTLY related to that subject, entitled "most useless unit". Repentia really ARE that bad. But I have also said I have a ~1.35 win/loss ratio (lowering from 1.5:1 since C:IG) with my Sisters, so obviously I don't think of them as weak overall, now do I? I point out aspects of the fluff which make Sisters into the scratching post of the galaxy. And yet I also love the concept behind them. I point out parts of the models that I despise. And yet I also point out parts that I love. I do have other armies (hell, just reading the signature text alone should let you guess that much), too. This one, however, is my favorite.
So, to swing this subject off of me and back on topic, you're wrong, so let us move on shall we?
Demoniac wrote:I dunno dude... Having them in each individual codex (WH and DH) made sense to me as the way it was explained in the codices was that each faction of the Inquisition is intrinsically linked to each of the different orders (Ordo Malleus are linked with Daemonhunters for obvious reasons, Ordo Hereticus with Witch Hunters/SoB etc..)... I really liked the addition, and (without some serious additions to the codices), the SoB and DH would have next to no individual units to choose from if it weren't for the Inquisition choices.
Like was said before as well, the addition of the Inquisitors gives yet more choice as it allows for the use of assassins, not to mention the more obvious and (imo) appropriate use of allies.
1: As opposed to a single codex dedicated to the Inquisition, which has more options for the Inquisition, more fleshed out allies rules, and it's all in one place?
2: If Sisters didn't have Inquisition to take up space in their codex, they'd have a few more Sisters units instead.
3: No it doesn't. It takes away choice from a Sisters army because it takes space in the codex which could have been dedicated to the Sisters. Similarly, having the Inquisition shoehorned into another faction's codex means that there isn't as much space to give to the Inquisition as well. It's not good for either faction.
Separate codices means that they will actually get the attention they both deserve. And hell, if MArines can get seven codices dedicated to them, the Inquisition at least deserves one of its own.
1: As opposed to a single codex dedicated to the Inquisition, which has more options for the Inquisition, more fleshed out allies rules, and it's all in one place?
2: If Sisters didn't have Inquisition to take up space in their codex, they'd have a few more Sisters units instead.
3: No it doesn't. It takes away choice from a Sisters army because it takes space in the codex which could have been dedicated to the Sisters. Similarly, having the Inquisition shoehorned into another faction's codex means that there isn't as much space to give to the Inquisition as well. It's not good for either faction.
Aye that's fair.
I think what I'm most worried about are the individual inquisitor types being changed and losing the awesome WH Inquisitor models... As long as the rules specifically for WH and DH are still there I don't mind so much. EDIT: And as long as the two are easy to integrate into each other...
It'd actually be interesting to see just what else they added into the Codex for SoB if they didn't have anything else in there.
Hey, hey, I wasn't trying to argue. Nor will I EVER admit that I am wrong. Moving on...
I don't think I would like it as much if the Inquisition got their own codex (unless I get to see Ordo Assasinorium, or whatever Ordo watches over the Ordo Assasinorium). But, it would be a very GW thing to do. Hey DH and WH players, you guys love you assassins and things right. Yeah? Well no you have to buy another codex just to have the rules to use them. Oh, and we are making GK silver space marines. But don't worry, we'll fix all the rules/ C:Inquisition screw ups in the 15th Edition. See you then!
Melissia wrote:Or you could get a book that gives you a lot more in the way of inquisitorial acolytes, wargear, more radical stuff, Ordo Xenos...
Aye that's what I'd hope for. If they arranged it in sections for each of the Ordo-specific units, then a section for "universal" Inquisitorial units, I think it would be amazing... I'm just in love with my current WH Inquisitor Lord and retinue lol
As long as it's done right (what are the chances? :() then it could well be amazing.
Well, that's what I'm hoping for. At the very least, =][= look to be getting their own book, though probably a supplement more along the lines of Dogs of War based off of this rumor and a few previous ones.
Nice work on that fan Codex btw, a couple of things I'm not so sure about (possibly due to something i've missed on the actual story/fluff front), but all up it's pretty good
I'd really like to see the Inquisitors not be needed in the new codex. Not that they wouldnt be there but not needed. I really would like to see the Sisters be different from Marines and Guard as they are to each other. More models, more unit types, more ic's and less of the 'ally with this faction, take stormtroopers,' etc. Right now they are borrowing so many of their stuff from the others. Strength, toughness, chimeras and stormtrooperes from the guard and Rhino's and the 3+ save. Sisters need to be a full fledged army, not the child of a Marine and Guard army.
The strength and toughness of Sisters is because they are human. That's extremely unlikely to change. Technically Eldar has that S and T, too.
And I'd rather they kept their 3+ save. That helps differentiate them from a vet-based Guard army (which can have entirely 4+ saves), and goes along with the wealth of the Ecclesiarchy in that they are able to pay for the production of power armor.
Melissia wrote:The strength and toughness of Sisters is because they are human. That's extremely unlikely to change. Technically Eldar has that S and T, too.
And I'd rather they kept their 3+ save. That helps differentiate them from a vet-based Guard army (which can have entirely 4+ saves), and goes along with the wealth of the Ecclesiarchy in that they are able to pay for the production of power armor.
Agreed completely.
I always thought of the SoB as being absolute exemplars of the human side of the 40k universe, utterly, fanatically devoted to the emperor, undergoing training that gives them skills almost as good as the Astartes (hence the BS4), and the Ecclesiarchy can afford to pay for both the training and the equipment.
I'm torn a bit, in one sense I'd like to see some interesting SoB/Mechanicus pacts (giving them some more opportunities for individual vehicles), but at the same time it seems somehow wrong to have possibly the most emperor devoted army in the universe get that close with a sect that doesn't primarily worship him...
It may be the conservative sexist in me speaking when I say this, but keep in mind, while I absolutely do not feel that women do not have a place in the 40k universe, I absolutely believe that women do not have a place in the 40k universe
(Pause to let shock dissipate)
No offense!
Now to explain, I think the concept of a purely female army running around in power armor setting things on fire all the while is not only perhaps the dumbest thing to come out of a 13 year olds live-journal, but also a HELL of a lot more sexist then my previous statement two lines up...
GW should ret-con this army out of existence and instead create a more bi-gender line of figures for the imperial guard and have female models in their upcoming "inquisition" (which honestly, should just be "Holy IG, with better armor and stronger 'faith'"). As of right now, one of the common images the SoB Model Range portrays are a bunch of Feminist-Lesbians who take their fashion advice from Lady Gaga (see figure 1)
Figure 1
Which also forces them into the corner-niche of martyrdom from similar 'strong willed' women of history (such as Joan of Arc) which seems to be a flavor even their strongest of fans dislikes...
The best way to "fix" the Sisters of Battle is to dissolve them, and turn them into an Inquisitorial force (which also should change its name as to not be confusing. I still love the irony of taking Inquisitorial 'allies') either that or merge them with GKs, either way, I still believe that the initial cause for the Sisters of Battle was to get the lesbian community involved in this war-game, and has run its course. You don't need a bunch of "Fame Monsters" running around trying to fool you with their "Poker faces" to get girls interested in 40k, hell if that were the case, why not just abandon the Eldar model range...
... speaking of which!
I am totally looking forward to new DE! The new models will probably be nice (not that they desperately need it, all things considered the DE range is not too terrible given its age) but more-so looking for the Vehicle improvements / list flexibility I am hoping we will get post DE launch!
I've heard August from many sources, September from others and few state the release in November. If GW was planning on doing a 3 month release, that puts the date in August, anyone here any other news pertaining to a Codex Release date?
So... a pop singer who came out LONG after the SoB and has once had a hairstyle similar to a single picture of a SoB fluff drawing is your basis for opposing the army?
Also-- lesbians? Do you automatically assume any female in the armed forces is a lesbian? Are all male nurses gay?
You, sir, are a pox on the gaming community. You drive out diversity and offend others all in some misguided, misogynistic worldview straight out of the 1800s.
Please, crawl back under the rock you slithered out from beneath.
/apologies to the mods for breaking some forum rules. Do as you must, but this sort of idiocy should be opposed at all times and in all venues.
kartofelkopf wrote:So... a pop singer who came out LONG after the SoB and has once had a hairstyle similar to a single picture of a SoB fluff drawing is your basis for opposing the army?
How do you know John Blanche cannot travel through time?
kartofelkopf wrote:So... a pop singer who came out LONG after the SoB and has once had a hairstyle similar to a single picture of a SoB fluff drawing is your basis for opposing the army?
How do you know John Blanche cannot travel through time?
H.B.M.C. wrote:How do you know John Blanche cannot travel through time?
Ha! That made me giggle
In all seriousness though (and I get the impression this will be regarded as blasphemy by many...) i'm not a big fan of John Blanches artwork... I really started getting into it after 3rd ed. and all the new artwork (the watercolour/pen and ink looking stuff) i think is absolutely incredible.
@Archon Ren
I'm pretty sure that hot chicks (depending on the picture) running around in Power Armour with heavy firepower is generally more appealing to men than women...
Demoniac wrote:In all seriousness though (and I get the impression this will be regarded as blasphemy by many...) i'm not a big fan of John Blanches artwork
Not blasphemy - a lot of people share that opinion. And it makes sense really: he clearly spent all that time building a time machine when he should have been learning how to draw.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Not blasphemy - a lot of people share that opinion. And it makes sense really: he clearly spent all that time building a time machine when he should have been learning how to draw.
Ah, i'm glad, but it never hurts being a touch cautious lol... He clearly did too, he's done some pretty cool stuff, but it's just a touch comical for my taste.
H3ct0r wrote:@Archon Ren
I'm pretty sure that hot chicks (depending on the picture) running around in Power Armour with heavy firepower is generally more appealing to men than women...
kartofelkopf wrote:So... a pop singer who came out LONG after the SoB and has once had a hairstyle similar to a single picture of a SoB fluff drawing is your basis for opposing the army?
Not my basis, but one of the qualms yes, you certainly know how to read between the lines there buddy! Kudos to you and your wide-open completely unbiased mind! (To be fair, it shouldn't be expected of a resident of Columbia South Carolina to understand where I am coming from anywho... Can't wait till you blow that one out of proportion as well )
kartofelkopf wrote:
Also-- lesbians? Do you automatically assume any female in the armed forces is a lesbian? Are all male nurses gay?
No, thus the reference to the IG female models. If you know any women in the armed forces that act like the SoB act then you should probably have them lobotomized.
kartofelkopf wrote:
You, sir, are a pox on the gaming community. You drive out diversity and offend others all in some misguided, misogynistic worldview straight out of the 1800s.
I'm gonna go ahead and attribute this statement to the "inability to read through the lines" from earlier. Again, no problem with WOMEN in the army, but an army of ENTIRELY women is in itself SEXIST. (I'm sure you will get it one day, just obviously, not today)
kartofelkopf wrote:
Please, crawl back under the rock you slithered out from beneath.
umadbro?
H3ct0r wrote:@Archon Ren
I'm pretty sure that hot chicks (depending on the picture) running around in Power Armour with heavy firepower is generally more appealing to basement-dwelling 35+-year-old-virgin men than women...
Fixt, and even with the edit I would be hard-pressed to agree. If you were attempting to target a male market group, you'd probably go with less armor (instead of heavy armor) and a more school-girlish approach. Unless you are referring to the "girls trapped in guys bodies" or the "Silence of the lamb-esque" male market.
Something tells me GW knew exactly what they were doing it, when they did it hopefully they know now the proper course of action.*
*This is possibly the only instance where I will ever admit this... ever! If GW deserves any 'props' it is in their marketing strategy/knowledge
(To be fair, it shouldn't be expected of a resident of Columbia South Carolina to understand where I am coming from anywho... Can't wait till you blow that one out of proportion as well )
Well, shucks, you smart city folk with yer book-learnin sure do got me licked!
So, you're misogynist and automatically assume things about people based on geography.
Neat.
I'm gonna go ahead and attribute this statement to the "inability to read through the lines" from earlier. Again, no problem with WOMEN in the army, but an army of ENTIRELY women is in itself SEXIST. (I'm sure you will get it one day, just obviously, not today)
So... how do you feel about female space marines? Or are they an army designed to appeal to homosexuals?
Not mad at all-- just thankful dakka has an "Ignore User" function.
Enjoy being a homophobic regionalist troll-- I won't trouble you any further.
H3ct0r wrote:@Archon Ren
I'm pretty sure that hot chicks (depending on the picture) running around in Power Armour with heavy firepower is generally more appealing to basement-dwelling 35+-year-old-virgin men than women...
Fixt, and even with the edit I would be hard-pressed to agree. If you were attempting to target a male market group, you'd probably go with less armor (instead of heavy armor) and a more school-girlish approach. Unless you are referring to the "girls trapped in guys bodies" or the "Silence of the lamb-esque" male market.
Again dude, I love both the models, the artwork, and the history for the SoB, and i'm a 21yo male who started renting a place at 17... If you don't like them, that's fine, but the kind of mass generalisations you're making are a touch offensive...
)
I like this new orkmoticon 