What with the prices of Island of Blood and Assault on Black Reach, how is GW really planning to get new players(or rather their parent's money) into the hobby?

At my local GW, new people who walk into the store to see what the hobby is about generally get a quick overview of the game and a demo game with either starter set if they have about 20 mins. After which they are asked if they think it might be something that they might be interested in and the starter set they just used is suggested.

Now, with the price hike on AoBR and the high cost of IoB, I envision many, parents grabbing their child, leaving the store, and never returning. I know I probably would do the same if it was my 12-13 year old getting offered the set, or even if I was 16-17 year old with my own money trying to be introduced via a starter set. Thoughts?


On a side note, anyone else get the feeling that the starter sets are so expensive because of us damn veterans kept buying them to save some money?

Hey there, thanks for the post. Didn't realize the price for Assault on Black Reach went up. It's still a nice deal, but it scares me a little. Black Reach's price was one of the few things 40K'ers seemed to agree was a very fine thing. I wish they could have held off the price hike a bit longer, but I guess times are hard...

Be well Tzeentchling9! Nice avatar by the way!
Frankie

How much does an AoBR cost now?

*EDIT* I just looked on GW's website and see that its $90.....HOLY HELL!

I paid $60 per box x4 two years ago.

People still seem to be buying them, you just have to bear in mind that the starter sets come with alot of stuff, and its still the cheapest way to get into either game.

AoBR is 90 USD.

IoB is 99 USD.

$90 for AoBR and $99 for isle of blood

well, still look at what you get

2x units of 20 clanrats = $64
1 warlord = $12
1 warlock = $12
warpfire thrower = $15
Plague Mortar = $15
2 Rat Ogres = $30 (minus the giant rats from the old set)

= $148 for the rats alone.

High Elves.

Griffon = $45 if you are lucky
Swordmaster = now plastic? $35 +
Sea Guard = now plastic? $25 +
Ellyrian reavers = now plastic? $25+
mage = $12 +

= $142 for the high elves, estimated conservatively.

so, we are looking at $300 worth of Models alone for a $99 set? I am still impressed, and I think its a great deal.

I know it's a great deal in comparison to all that you get out of it, but 100 USD is an awful lot to drop at once for a parent/teen just introduced to the hobby.

Yep when you add it up like that it looks great, but in reality your asking the parents to drop $100 on something their kid was just "sold"

And as a parent of a teen age boy I can tell you his interests, and the interests of his friends change every single week it seems.

The problem with them having only one such set per new edition of rules is that they lose out on sales to people that could care less about the two armies they're trying to pawn off on us.

GBP60. That's one and half xbox games. Seems pretty reasonable to me for what you get.

Especially considering that the other fantasy rulebook is GBP45.

I' sure GW did market research to find the sweet spot of maximizing sales and profit. I highly doubt their market researches just tossed a dart at a list of prices and went with what popped up.

A lot of big boxed games cost that much these days, anyway.

Yeah, but those are generally complete games and not ones that require multiple hundreds of more dollars dropped on them.

Yeah, you get like 500-600 points for $90? An average game in 40k is 1500-2000....

the prices are fine to me, you get over $300 worth of mini's in it, a rulebook (which retails $60 or $74.25) templates and dice another $10-12)

Most parents I see jump at the chance to get their kids into it as long as you explain to them that its about the hobby aspect as well, modelling, painting AND playing, not just playing a quick 1 hour game. that $100 boxset, gives you about a month's worth of building and painting alone.

I wonder if this will lead to a swing in the other direction. Will GW go backwards, and release a conservative starter set for the next edition, say 20-30 models a side at around the 50 dollar mark?

It would make it much more approachable for new players, but far less desirable for older players- unless they skimp on the basics and keep the exclusive 'holy grail' units like the deffkoptas. It could be just as engaging, especially if they invested the time to create some training scenarios like Battle for Macragge. Heck, with their new online delivery system they could just release PDF scenarios for what you can do with the boxed set.

Wasn't the original Space Hulk about 60 dollars in the late 80s?
I seem to remember earning money and buying it as a young-one. (yeah, what's up paper route)

A Ben to get in is more (as in better) than fair.
As a comparison most video games cost about 50 dollars.

Spectacularly failtastic business practices rear their ugly heads again.

Just have people join a "club" when they buy their first box using a photo ID to add their basic data points to the system, and connect the system electronically, and get it 50% off when they do. Then you can milk the veterans, and entice the starters. You also get all the newbs into the e-mail chain for updates / newsletters / etc.

GW Corporate must be the most toxic, back-biting, politically charged work environment ... with way too much "power" in the hands of way too disparate a selection of executives and designers ... b/c the business approaches they come up with are in no way sensible, lean, or focused.

Eh it seems like a ton of money but keep inflation in mind. 5 years ago I could buy a candy bar for 50 cents (USD) now they're up to $1 money just doesn't go as far as it used to.

Beside its still a great deal and with the rise of video games, board and table top games are hurting. I mean a standard set of risk runs for $45+.

GW costs have actually materially decreased in the last decade, due to their advancement to better crafting techniques and a larger plastic line.

Don't let 'em kid you.

The problem is complex, and relates to everything from a really bass-ackward business acumen to overinflated/politically-retained staffs of underpaid-but-too-plentiful-and-undermotivated ... what "geeks" I guess ... the writers/rules people/etc.

As a parent I would say "hey its your money, your funeral."

This isn't inflation at work, just good old fashioned price gouging. Just because the the same models would cost over 300 to buy separately doesn't make them a deal if the customer feels like they're getting taken for a ride, which most new customers will assume. Its alot easier to plop down 60 bucks for the newest halo whatever game and play with a bunch of friends, than it is to drop 100 big ones (thats a lot for kid) on a game not many people have heard of. Thats before you even begin to invest the additional money and man hours needed to paint and assemble before you can even start playing.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:Eh it seems like a ton of money but keep inflation in mind. 5 years ago I could buy a candy bar for 50 cents (USD) now they're up to $1 money just doesn't go as far as it used to.

Beside its still a great deal and with the rise of video games, board and table top games are hurting. I mean a standard set of risk runs for $45+.

More like 25. http://www.hasbro.com/risk/default.cfm?page=Products/Detail&product_id=22163 and I see it in stores for 19.99 all the time. In Canada, AoBR is $108 and IoB is $118.75. I can buy 5 copies of risk for that.

Hmmm.
My 60 dollar Space Hulk run through the CPI Inflation Calculator says: 2010 -- $105.57 dollar Space Hulk.
Which came with less stuff than the new fantasy box set.

Yeah, I'm not feeling the price gouge.

People act like GW products are as required as bread and milk.

You cant really gouge a luxury product. If people dont want it they will live with out it, so will you.

Vocal minority at its finest.

In many ways $100 is not alot of money for what you get. Sure. Try to tell that to anyone who isn't used to GW sticker shock. I can see it now "Well $100 is a deal compared to this box of blood crushers 3 for $52". GW pricing is off the hook. When I started it was a cheap and fun hobby ($18 for 30 marines). My friends and I in high school and college payed because it was relatively cheap (yes we still complained about some prices back then too). We had multiple armies in 40k, Epic, and warhammer, not to mention things like chaos warbands (kind of like mordhiem). Armies were smaller back then and for giant battles we played spacemarine/epic.

Yes I talk the talk and walk the walk. I have not bought anything new from GW in years, Thanks ebay. And yes stilll play.

Every time I hear people stick up for GW pricing and practices in general I get the douche chills. I cant wait to see how Mantic's pricing plays out vs GW.

Lets face it If Hasbro was making this game these miniatures would be cheap cheap cheap. Lets look at the costs. GI joe action figures cost about as much as GW miniatures. 5 GI joes in a box for $20, the Joes have many more pieces, are pre painted and assembled and are much bigger. (not that i would want pre paints or pre assembled....but its still a cost). Space marines 10 for $40, its just a few sprues of plastic.

GW needs to get real. If the retail stores are not making you money close them, why should customers have to pay the cost of you running retail stores? I really cant figure out how they were doing ok at $1 a miniature and now at $4 they are struggling?

Luxury product my a@@, its a hobby go to a model shop and see what miniatures cost there. Same with forgeworld resin $20 for 10 bolters and some bayonets. By those standards my old $18 dollar box was worth $60 just in bolters. What a load.

The vending machine at my office just had a 30% price increase on everything in it.

$100 just isn't what $100 was before. Still, if two kids go in on it together, it ends up being less than a video-game each. I think these starter sets are designed to buy with someone else.

There is no such thing as price gouging. In a free market, you are free to sell your products at whatever price you want. The consumer is free to buy whatever products he wants. Price Gouging to gamers means they aren't selling the products to me at the prices they want.

I'll tell you what will change GW's tune.....

Get the tournament scene to drop the Citadel Only rule. When players start shopping at other companies for orcs and elves and Shock Troops, and get them cheaper, then GW will have to change its business practices.

The only negative result will be you can't play at a GW store or the Las Vegas GT. Big deal.

GW has a worldwide network of stores. Multiple games that has been going strong for over 20 years. Books, video games, accessories and all kinds of other bs all under their IP.

They get massive web traffic for terms related to their IP.

They have legions of devoted fans.

They spend about NO money on advertising.

Are they perfect? No.

Are they idiots? No.

They are the most successful company in their vertical, ever. That says a lot.

While other game companies come and go like the turning of the tides, GW trucks on through thick and thin and continue to innovate and grow.

They have done this because they run their company like a business which upsets some people who seem to think a game company should be an NPO. They have made mistakes, but they have overcome them consistently.

So anyway, these discussions about GW's business practices are always pointless. A bunch of people with limited information and big opinions all chime in as if they were experts when none of us really know the entire story.

I am sure new people will continue to get into the hobby as they have since the 80's. Some will stay and dump thousands into the hobby like most of us. Some will go after a year and sell their crap on eBay. And through it all, people will always complain (as is their right) about prices.

Same old story and yet pretty much everyone continues to buy the stuff.

While it is quite a bit more expensive than the Black Reach and Skull Pass sets were originally, the 3rd edition 40k boxed set was like $75 back when I got into the hobby when I was like 14 or something, and it had waaaay less stuff than any of them. It had 10 marines, a landspeeder, and 20 Dark Eldar warriors, ruined buildings and plastic trees, plus rulebook and dice and all the accessories. If they could sell that for $75 back then, I bet they'll get away with selling this for close to $100 now.

Yeah 17 dollars for a blood crusher is a great deal for that model.
Especially when you compare it to the original bulldog Juggernaut of Khorne for 12 dollars (approximate 1989 price).
20 years and a 5 dollar increase... wait a second that's 4 dollars less than inflation for a better model... well I just got gouged.

Where GW prices don't line up is in some of their older in-production minis. Like the Necron Immortals.

...and GI Joes aren't models, they are bulk produced toys.
GW models are a little below market in comparison to other serious model kits.

That 30 space marine kit was not the standard, nor the Ork or IG.
The old metals have a level of detail that could be compared to the new plastic kits.
Their old metal models are the standard of comparison, which were around 4 dollars for a single piece infantry model 2 decades ago.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:I know it's a great deal in comparison to all that you get out of it, but 100 USD is an awful lot to drop at once for a parent/teen just introduced to the hobby.

But it isn't just $100. It's a $100 for the box.

Not included are the snippers, glue and files you need to assemble the miniatures, either. Hopefully they wouldn't be so silly as to buy them at the GW, but you know the salespeople will push newbies into doing just that.

So we are up to $150.

You need some sort of case to carry those minis in, you don't want them damaged and broken!

Wham! Another $75 bucks.

THIS is how GW robs people.

Your $100 starter just got them $225 for the other stuff you "need."

It reminds me of the time the local pet store had hamsters on sale, and my 3 year old talked Dad into buying one..

$4 for the Hamster..
$90 for the environment, bedding, food etc..

This topic is pointless, its the same people who like complainging about prices and whatnot, I think Reecius said it best, its a business, deal with with it.

As one of the guys who frequents my store said to someone he heard complaining about the prices, "if you think it costs too much, then your probably in the wrong hobby."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, comparing them to Mantic doesn't work, I've seen Mantics models, and most of them are nothing compared to the newer GW stuff, their skeletons have about 4 poses max, are mainly one pieces and are so boring and static looking.

Comparable company models would be Privateer, and its also got comparable prices, but then, nobody ever complains about them

caddock wrote:http://www.hasbro.com/risk/default.cfm?page=Products/Detail&product_id=22163 and I see it in stores for 19.99 all the time. In Canada, AoBR is $108 and IoB is $118.75. I can buy 5 copies of risk for that.

Wow my local store is just being insulting then, time to have a word with them. . .

The production that goes into a video game is massive. With GW products you do alot of the production, you have to pay for the paint, glue and other products . You get alot of playability with a video game, especially when you consider on line play. I know people that have easily racked up hours, days, weeks playing video games. How often do most people play more than a couple games of GW products a week? Comparing a video game to GW is apples and oranges.

Sergeant Horse wrote:This topic is pointless, its the same people who like complainging about prices and whatnot, I think Reecius said it best, its a business, deal with with it.

As one of the guys who frequents my store said to someone he heard complaining about the prices, "if you think it costs too much, then your probably in the wrong hobby."

I hope the store manager didn't hear that guy belittling his customers opinions. We've had problems with people who do the same thing, they drive business away.

Sorry, but I'm laughing my ass off right now at you guys. So much talk about business strategies, and why a set with over 300.00 in stuff is overpriced at 100.00)

I can walk upstairs and watch parent after parent drop 100.00 on videogames all day long. And then watch the kids trade them in a week later for 20 bucks in store credit. Or walk over to TRU and take a look at what the average parent is buying as they walk out. 100.00 is nothing these days.

I've got 50 of these on order, and will probably up it to 100 now that I've gotten a closer look at the set today. You guys can speculate and play business expert all you want. I've got to make decisions on this game that affect me putting food on the table for my family, and I think the thing is going to sell great.

Back to the negative pontification, don't let me slow you down.)

We all complain about prices but facts are facts. GW and minature gaming is not meant to be a cheap hobby. Period. Its not like we are buying food or things of necessity. So its up to everyone where you draw the line. If you think the cost gets to high, don't buy it, go buy a video game consult, the game, the power strip, the tv, etc. Its the same argument!

Whatever your hobby is your going to drop cash to do it. Your a gamer. You switch to a new system, you need: the rules, the models, maybe templates, paints, glue, etc. Maybe you have another hobby game, so you have a case and all that stuff. Compare that too...

I go buy a PS3. So I hook it up to my TV guess what I spent to do that? $200 for the PS4, $45-50 a game, the cost for the TV $600 that I paid 3 years ago, the power strip, a weekly cable bill... hey i'm over the $300 for the hobby set...

Just my opinion, its all relative. I like my little plastic men. I have my armies, they have brought me years of fun, entertainment, and met a few good friends. That worth it to me. I also recognize, its not worth it to others, and I hope they find something they enjoy.

Belphegor wrote:Hmmm.
My 60 dollar Space Hulk run through the CPI Inflation Calculator says: 2010 -- $105.57 dollar Space Hulk.
Which came with less stuff than the new fantasy box set.

Yeah, I'm not feeling the price gouge.

You need to recalibrate the calculator then since the price you are basing the inflation off of was not $60. It was $40. Second edition was $50-$60 (I am not sure what was actual MSRP for second edition because all the shops I frequented at that time had it for varying cost between the two).

That same CPI claculator says that same $40 in 1989 is now worth $70.

There is no contest however that the products within the third edition are head and shoulders above previous editions in quality. Though I have not had a problem with tilewarpage in 1st or 2nd editions as I do with 3rd edition, so I am going to side with price gouging here.

Yeah 17 dollars for a blood crusher is a great deal for that model.
Especially when you compare it to the original bulldog Juggernaut of Khorne for 12 dollars (approximate 1989 price).
20 years and a 5 dollar increase... wait a second that's 4 dollars less than inflation for a better model... well I just got gouged.

Where GW prices don't line up is in some of their older in-production minis. Like the Necron Immortals.

...and GI Joes aren't models, they are bulk produced toys.
GW models are a little below market in comparison to other serious model kits.

That 30 space marine kit was not the standard, nor the Ork or IG.
The old metals have a level of detail that could be compared to the new plastic kits.
Their old metal models are the standard of comparison, which were around 4 dollars for a single piece infantry model 2 decades ago.

Juggernaut of Khone was not 12 Dollars in 1989 i've still got one in a blister from after 1993 $7.99. Expensive at the time because it was a big heavy chunk of solid metal. Metal is expensive or at least that is always the excuse that GW gives. So now they are plastic and more expensive...yes detail is better, but technology has improved vastly, detail should be better. I very much doubt they were using cad in the old shops which cuts down on design time.

GI Joes are pretty detailed now. Each one is made up many more parts that any GW miniature. Hasbro nips them off the sprue, assembles them and paints them. GW just molds them and puts them in a box.

The plastic is cheap.....i mean really cheap, size really should play no part of pricing. Production is minimal. The most expensive part has to be design. Spread that out ove the run......lets say imperial guard cadians. Now of course I dont have the numbers, but i bet they have sold 20 times more boxes of cadians then they ever sold of the old RTB marines. Yet they still raise the price on them.

Why? Because GW hears a few people who have no idea what a great company GW used to be, make crazy comparisons (the old metal blood crusher was $50 so these plastic ones are a steal). If GW thinks they can get away with a price increase they will. Everyone of you that supports GW's price gouging is just telling them to continue to raise prices.

Ahhh, I can remember Khorne Juggernaught riding Space Marines that cost $20 in 1995. Juggernaught and rider are both ass in comparison to now. And a $3 reduction, for lighter and more resilient models 15 years later is totally gouging......

It's a business. If the market will bear it then it's not gouging. As for getting in new players it's the job of vets who love their hobby to bring it to more people too. If you don't enjoy GW or their prices then don't sweat it. Find something else. New blood will keep coming in. Brought in by people who enjoy the hobby. The more I look at it it's the people that have been "playing for 20+ years" (use condescending voice here) that have the most problem with the current set-up. You can't make most vets happy so GW doesn't try anymore.

And having sold Video games and GW product I can tell you parents truly like the idea of GW more even though it costs more. Especially if little timmy has a friend getting into it too. Personal experience only. But consistant with people I know still doing it.

mikhaila wrote:Sorry, but I'm laughing my ass off right now at you guys. So much talk about business strategies, and why a set with over 300.00 in stuff is overpriced at 100.00)

I'm not going to argue the business side of it. Fools and money... and too many parents are fools. I'd argue the philosophical view on this and say its not that players are getting $300 worth of models for a $100 its that players overpay by $200 for $100 worth of models adding to GW's sentiments that they can get even more. Great deal and nice models. I can't blame GW for milking the hobby like they do, but its simple statistics that higher prices on entry level products constrains entry even if only a little.

"it's not supposed to be a cheap hobby", Why not, it was many years ago, metal got expensive so they switched to plastic which is cheaper. What about the game screams it should be expensive. It's plastic army men!!!

"It was always expensive, you knew that getting into". No, no it wasn't at all, I used to get 6 sometimes 7 metal marauder dark elves in a blister for $5.50 (which I still think look great compared to the plastic dark elf warriors we have today...crap). It's plastic army men!!!!

Again in a company like Hasbro put out the same product it would be much cheaper....they would have had movies out years ago to get people into it (even mutant chronicles got a movie, it sucked, but still) and it would be selling like hotcakes. But how many of you would want that? You want to feel like some kind of geek elitists, classic problem in this community. If it was cheap and popular you might actually have to deal with ........normal people.

Please dont tell me how a big company like hasbro would ruin the game. The game has already been streamlined to the point where it is no longer a tactical game. Its all about suicide melta groups anyway.

Mantics first miniatures are not gold standard? Well for first miniatures they are. I'd put them up against alot of gw multipose but really only one straight standing pose works miniatures.

I'm of the belief that this starter set is adequately priced. However, if they somehow raise it by another $20 or so then I may change my mind...

I guess in response to Hellfury & Andrew1975 I will have to raise my fist and -scream- "Damn you allied hobbies!"
(Though I may be wrong about the price I paid for Space Hulk.)

Does anyone remember the MSRP on the Metal Terminators and Patriarchs from 1989?

-typo edit-

Belphegor wrote:I guess in response to Hellfury & Andrew1975 I will have to raise my fist and screw "Damn you allied hobbies!"
(Though I may be wrong about the price I paid for Space Hulk.)

Does anyone remember the MSRP on the Metal Terminators and Patriarchs from 1989?

I do recall the price for the genestealer patriarch. $7.50 for the running patriarch and came with 3 genestealer familiars.
I cant help you with the metal terminators though. The earliest price for them I recall was during late second edition when they were $35. Orginal RT termies I have no idea about.

Back in the day you didn't see 50-man blobs of IG and it didn't take the Ork player an hour to move his bazillion greenskins across the board. That's the difference to me, the size of the game has increased....the game tables feel a lot smaller now.




Damn, I'm old.


Edit:
As to the rising prices, etc. I'll continue to pay until it's not fun anymore then I'll dump all my toys in the trash.

Reccius' post = truth, justice, and win. Vote with your wallets people, as that is the only tru epower you have to influence GW. Find a herd to swim with, mebbe you can do sometyhing as a mass. Caue GW dont give a clanrat's ass about you as an individual. They are a business.

HiveFleet wrote:well, still look at what you get

2x units of 20 clanrats = $64
1 warlord = $12
1 warlock = $12
warpfire thrower = $15
Plague Mortar = $15
2 Rat Ogres = $30 (minus the giant rats from the old set)

= $148 for the rats alone.

High Elves.

Griffon = $45 if you are lucky
Swordmaster = now plastic? $35 +
Sea Guard = now plastic? $25 +
Ellyrian reavers = now plastic? $25+
mage = $12 +

= $142 for the high elves, estimated conservatively.

so, we are looking at $300 worth of Models alone for a $99 set? I am still impressed, and I think its a great deal.

it's not THAT accurate. you're comparing some metal models with plastics (which are generally cheaper) and also comparing current multi-pose plastics with mono-pose snap together kits. while the starter set minis are nice, they're worth LESS than their normal line equivalents (see the secondary market and you'll see how much less aobr marines/dreads and orks go for compared with the normal kits). starter sets should be a loss leader to get people INTO the hobby; you then proceed to suck them dry until they give up.

is it still a good buy compared to the normal plastic line? sure. will it convince someone who isn't planning on playing skaven or high elves to drop $100 on it to just try the rules set? less likely than if they had priced it at a current gen video game price of $60. i was planning on buying the new fantasy set but don't plan to now at $100. i'd rather just get a small rulebook on ebay or a local store that is willing to split the box up instead. two other 40k players i know were thinking about trying it but won't now that the price has been announced.

evilsponge wrote:This isn't inflation at work, just good old fashioned price gouging.

No, it's "price correction". At no point did GW claim that their across-the-board 50% price hikes were because of inflation. As for gouging, I think you've taken for granted how cheap it was for so long. Yes, I said it, GW has been keeping their prices LOW all these years, thus the increase now.

As mentioned, everything else in the world has gotten a lot more expensive over time. The price of rice has quadruped in the last 5 years, the price of gold has tripled, the price of gas has doubled. The fact that GW went for 5 years without much rise in prices and then only increased by 50% actually makes their price hike CHEAP in comparison to everything else.

Yeah, hiking the prices all at once may or may not have been a good idea, and yes, increasing price will make it harder for people to start new armies (so will things like the global recession). That said, it's hard to balk at spending $90 on a starter set for your child when it costs you and your spouse and your child $30 to go to a movie nowadays.

As has been said a billion times here - new players don't know what the old prices were, so this is the only price as far as they are concerned. That's why it will sell.

HiveFleet wrote:so, we are looking at $300 worth of Models alone for a $99 set? I am still impressed, and I think its a great deal.

Except no new player knows any of that, making everything you said essentially irrelevant.

Andrew1975 wrote:The production that goes into a video game is massive. With GW products you do alot of the production, you have to pay for the paint, glue and other products . You get alot of playability with a video game, especially when you consider on line play. I know people that have easily racked up hours, days, weeks playing video games. How often do most people play more than a couple games of GW products a week? Comparing a video game to GW is apples and oranges.

No its not both are something I spend my extra income on so it is not an apples and oranges comparison. And i know people that rack up hours, days, weeks, and years playing GW games. That has nothing to do with anything. What is important is how many hours of enjoyment you get from a product compared to your total investment in that product. For some people GW gives a good return on that equation and for some people it doesn't. The same could be said for video games. It doesn't matter at all what kind of production goes into a video game as compared to GW.

I find video games to be a good return for my investment because I usually spend somewhere between 40-100 hours on each game I buy (I only buy 4-6 games a year so it isn't that much) and I usually buy them used so I spend about $1.00 to $0.50 an hour on my video game habit. I think that is pretty good. Now I probably spend about a thousand dollars a year on miniatures (they aren't all GW but lets just pretend they are). So if I play one day a week say for 5 hours a week and probably I play 3 times a month then 180 hours of playing every year, then I probably spend about 6 hours a week doing general hobby related stuff (like painting and converting so that comes to about 300 some odd hours a year, so essentially I probably do about 500 man hours of hobby related stuff every year for a cost of $1000 dollars a year so I spend about $2 an hour on my GW hobby. Now I don't really find that to be all that bad either.

And more importantly I could stop spending money on my GW hobby and still have a wide variety of new gaming experiences while that would be much harder to do with video games and much less convenient.

Belphegor wrote:I guess in response to Hellfury & Andrew1975 I will have to raise my fist and screw "Damn you allied hobbies!"
(Though I may be wrong about the price I paid for Space Hulk.)

Does anyone remember the MSRP on the Metal Terminators and Patriarchs from 1989?

If I remember correctly most of the miniatures boxes cost the same whether it was the plastic marines, harlequins, terminators or a regiment of renown they were all $19.99 at the store and $18 if you ordered them from a discount store. Most of the big box games (Space hulk, space marine, blood bowl. Etc) were $55 you could probably get them for $50 at a discount store. Blisters of lead miniatures were packed 3-6 in a blister for $5.50. You could get a 5 man aspect squad for $5.50, now its what $30. You cant tell me those old Jess Goodwin sculpts were bad. In fact the Pheonix lords are the same sculpt, they were $5.50 when they came out, now they are $17. GW has more than made the design costs off them, all they are paying for now is metal and making new molds. Yes making new molds cost money, but GW uses those molds until they are dust...i've seen some models that really should never have passed quality control.



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No its not both are something I spend my extra income on so it is not an apples and oranges comparison. And i know people that rack up hours, days, weeks, and years playing GW games. That has nothing to do with anything. What is important is how many hours of enjoyment you get from a product compared to your total investment in that product. For some people GW gives a good return on that equation and for some people it doesn't. The same could be said for video games. It doesn't matter at all what kind of production goes into a video game as compared to GW.

I find video games to be a good return for my investment because I usually spend somewhere between 40-100 hours on each game I buy (I only buy 4-6 games a year so it isn't that much) and I usually buy them used so I spend about $1.00 to $0.50 an hour on my video game habit. I think that is pretty good. Now I probably spend about a thousand dollars a year on miniatures (they aren't all GW but lets just pretend they are). So if I play one day a week say for 5 hours a week and probably I play 3 times a month then 180 hours of playing every year, then I probably spend about 6 hours a week doing general hobby related stuff (like painting and converting so that comes to about 300 some odd hours a year, so essentially I probably do about 500 man hours of hobby related stuff every year for a cost of $1000 dollars a year so I spend about $2 an hour on my GW hobby. Now I don't really find that to be all that bad either.

And more importantly I could stop spending money on my GW hobby and still have a wide variety of new gaming experiences while that would be much harder to do with video games and much less convenient.

So if your math stands you count building your miniatures as hobby time, but you are not including the costs of your other materials. Also Video games come complete. You don't have to build or paint them. I've never heard of a video game that you had to finish programming before you could even start it.

Play time and hobby time are completely different aspects. Remember that GW passes ALL assembly and paint costs onto the customer, they just pump out sprue! Some people like it some people dont (painting is my favorite part anymore) but if assembly is required those costs including time and materials should be taken into account. For those reasons video games are much cheaper than GW products.

While I have known people to play 36 hours of video games pretty much straight, i find very few people can do it with a miniature game. We used to have 24 hour games during Christmas break college (slaughter claus) with about 10 people on a side. Half the time it isn't your turn and you are BSing with everyone else. Im not sure that we ever really finished a game.


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I remember when GW and Milton Bradely had a short love affair. MB was releasing these games with tones of plastic miniatures, many that were better than the GW equivalent at the time. Battle Masters and Heroquest being the big ones here in the states, I know they launched advance space crusade in the UK with the coolest chaos dreadnought. Battle masters was $25 even less when it went on clearance. It came with a butt load of miniatures.

* 1 Battle mat, 4 1/2 x 5 feet
* 1 Tower

The Imperial Army - 11 Units:
+ 3 Lord Knights mounted (1 unit)
+ 9 Imperial Knights mounted (3 units)
+ 15 Imperial Men-at-Arms (3 units)
+ 10 Imperial Archers (2 units)
+ 5 Imperial Crossbowmen (1 unit)
+ 1 Mighty Cannon with 2 crew (1 unit)
o The Chaos Army - 14 Units:
+ 3 Champions Of Chaos mounted (1 unit)
+ 10 Chaos Warrios (2 units)
+ 10 Chaos Archers (2 units)
+ 10 Orcs (2 units)
+ 10 Goblins (2 Units)
+ 6 Wolf Riders (2 units)
+ 10 Beast men
+ 1 Ogre Champion (1 unit)

That's 21 cavalry models 80 infantry 1 ogre and 1 war machine (with crew) plus a awesome plastic tower . SO YEAH 3 BLOOD CRUSHERS FOR $50 IS CRAZY. Yeah not as good as GW now, but better than GW then. It's a value comparison, they did it then, they could do it now.

So don't tell me that a company like Hasbro, which owns MB, could not put out the same quality for a better price. I'm sure their capabilities are much better than GW.

Now apparently GW's customer service is much better than it used to be, when you got a bad mini before you were pretty S.O.L., from the stories I've heard now they bend over backwards. That costs more than you think, but does not excuse a 600% increase in 20 years.

I heard there was going to be some use of Callidus assassins in the EU and other world wide governments to have Warhammer made a mandatory GCSE subject (or whatever other things useless countries take at that age).

No, seriously now..with the general appearance of the miniatures becoming more cartoon/cliche like, the prices being raked up and some of the wonderful rules being written up to make sure they alienate as many of the old school as possible who wouldn't want to start Warhammer? I can't see why GW had financial issues (i'll ignore the obvious drop in the LOTR market for the convenience of my current point) or are even considering product attraction as a problem because they scream loyalty to me.

I don't understand why people get so aggressive and derisive when someone says that they think something isn't good value for money. I've decided the starter isn't worth it for me (if it had orcs or dwarves in it it might be) so I'm not going to buy it. I think a lot of the newer releases are not worth it, so I don't buy them. *shrug* It's not a moral judgement, it's just what I think is value for money. If it happens to enough other people, that'll be bad for GW. Then again, maybe it won't happen. But why get so narky about it?

I don't understand why people get so aggressive and derisive when someone says that they think something isn't good value for money. I've decided the starter isn't worth it for me (if it had orcs or dwarves in it it might be) so I'm not going to buy it. I think a lot of the newer releases are not worth it, so I don't buy them. *shrug* It's not a moral judgement, it's just what I think is value for money. If it happens to enough other people, that'll be bad for GW. Then again, maybe it won't happen. But why get so narky about it?

I don't know either, it may have to do with an illusion of exclusivity that is really prevalent in many subcultures. Some people feel special when they pay more for things. "ha ha look at you with your black reach marines, i paid $50 for my 5 stern guard, that makes me a real gamer" Eh whatever, I still use my hordes of old plastic beakies, they kill just as well.

I think it is also a fear of the general public, if the game was available to everyone then lots of little kids would play, most adults don't want their strategic combat simulation game to be misconstrued with poke mon. "We are cool, these are war games not kids games."

I just think GW is in the same place the American car manufacturers were a few years ago, no real competition has made them pretty fat and complacent. They have gotten to big for their own good...GW stores I'm talking to you. GW stores to me only exist to force people to play with GW miniatures (my warzone Bauhaus imperial guard would never fly there) . I'd rather play at a friends house with a beer, or at a independent store any day.

I think back to the GW store I ran (in Sydney, Australia) 15 years ago. We'd regularly sell 20-30 "starter sets" of 2nd Edition 40K and 4th Edition Warhammer each month. Those boxed sets were $140 each.

One thing we made sure to do was tell the potential customer about the hobby, the joy of the hobby, and explain to them the amount they could expect to outlay for hobby materials (paints, clippers, glue, etc) and for their first army.

Some people said "Pffft, that's ridiculous!" and walk out. Some people would say "Thanks for the honesty, maybe later." and walk out.

Some people would say "Thanks for all the information, this sounds like a great hobby, let's get started" - those sales were often $200+ with the right equipment to get started on a life long love affair with toy soldiers.

Honesty is key, and if the staff in GW stores are honest about the costs and potential enjoyment of getting into the hobby, those who are interested and will stay in the hobby won't be worried about the price.

It's when you try to trick the customer, or be slick, is when you misrepresent the hobby and the purchase and "recruit" those who were never really interested in the hobby to begin with. Quick bucks that can lead to a lean future in your store. I've seen that happen, when a great "salesman" sold 40 40K boxes in a month, but had only a couple of those folks buying armies three months later.

Just my two cents.

Cheers
Dave

$165 in Australia. Wow thats gonna take me a while to save for lol. Stupid GW and there ridiculous prices. Yet I'm still going to buy it -.-

H.B.M.C. wrote:As has been said a billion times here - new players don't know what the old prices were, so this is the only price as far as they are concerned. That's why it will sell.

HiveFleet wrote:so, we are looking at $300 worth of Models alone for a $99 set? I am still impressed, and I think its a great deal.

Except no new player knows any of that, making everything you said essentially irrelevant.

Speaking of irrelevant...

Because EVERY new player buys the starter box with no previous exposure to any miniature game or kit ever.

You have to realize the aspect of running a business, and the changes that GW has made.

The price of a miniature in the 80's did not have to cover the thousands of employees GW has now. It did not have to cover there huge building expenses.
As a public company they have to invest money into stock annalist and other things of that nature. They have interest and pay off debts. They have to throw out some dividens.
They also have to pay the millions in "free shipping" (shipping is not free for them) across the globe. The price of metal has risen dramatically in the past 20 years don't compare metal models to plastics.

Also the term price gouging needs to be defined correctly, raising prices is not price gouging. These prices are not unfair and most GW profits don't even come from the models, its the licensing for the video games.

This isn't inflation at work, just good old fashioned price gouging.

No, it's "price correction". At no point did GW claim that their across-the-board 50% price hikes were because of inflation. As for gouging, I think you've taken for granted how cheap it was for so long. Yes, I said it, GW has been keeping their prices LOW all these years, thus the increase now.

As mentioned, everything else in the world has gotten a lot more expensive over time. The price of rice has quadruped in the last 5 years, the price of gold has tripled, the price of gas has doubled. The fact that GW went for 5 years without much rise in prices and then only increased by 50% actually makes their price hike CHEAP in comparison to everything else.

Yeah, hiking the prices all at once may or may not have been a good idea, and yes, increasing price will make it harder for people to start new armies (so will things like the global recession). That said, it's hard to balk at spending $90 on a starter set for your child when it costs you and your spouse and your child $30 to go to a movie nowadays.

Rice has nothing to do with the cost of miniatures, neither does gold, now gas or better, oil does. But not enough to compensate for a in some cases a 600% increase in 20 years. Not everything has gotten more expensive, computers are way cheaper than they were in the 80s and 90s. As for movies in 1990 first run movies were $7.00 where I lived so $10 now 20 years later is not so bad its about 30%. And while the price of white metal and plastic have gone up, i'm pretty sure that plastic is still cheaper than the lead they used to make the minis out of. Yes i know to produce the actual molds for the plastic is much more expensive, but at the volumes that GW is pumping out its close to nothing. Can you even imagine how many cadians there are in the world?

Its like when forgeworld gives the resin excuse. Well here is the story with resin. Its crap, its heavy, it warps, its toxic, it has bubles in it, but its pretty cheap. Go into any craft store, everything is made of resin. That leprechaun nick nack that is the size of a warhound titan, resin $4.00.

They can charge what they want, it is a free market after all. People pay it. Hell people will pay $20 for 10 forgeworld bolters. I stopped buying years ago, except something from EBAY here and there. But as long as people pay without letting GW know its enough they will just keep raising the prices. Every time I hear some fanboy stand up for the prices I get douche chills. There is no reason for it, why would anybody support a price hike? I don't know, maybe they are banking on their minis being a retirement fund one day.

Well I guess gold does have something to do with it. Now that GW is a public company i guess their executives need golden parachutes.


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You have to realize the aspect of running a business, and the changes that GW has made

The price of a miniature in the 80's did not have to cover the thousands of employees GW has now. It did not have to cover there huge building expenses.

I understand running a business, I own 2. A good one is I own a bar. Now if I was the only bar in town i could charge whatever i want. That is pretty much what GW does.

80's minis didn't cover the cost of employees? Sure it did. They didnt have as many employees sure, but they didn't sell as many minis either. I bet the ratio between minis and employees is much higher now than it was in the late 80's, 90's or even the 00's. While lager does not always equal more efficient. I would bet that GW's manufacturing process as a whole is much more efficient now than it has ever been in the past. These costs were always figured into the price of the goods, the cost of manufacturing per piece does not go up as volume increases, in fact the opposite happens.

As a public company they have to invest money into stock annalist and other things of that nature.

WhAAAAAAAAAAT! Redonkulous! As a ratio per mini these "thinks of that nature" which you speak of must amount to a fraction a a cent for each mini.

They have interest and pay off debts. They have to throw out some dividens.

Yes....so does everyone else, they generally don't do it with a 600% price gouge. See Dividends are paid to share holders, shares (for the most part) are bought giving the company capital to invest. So here is their base of capital, additional loans may be necessary. Responsible companies manage their money and put MODEST strain on the end users, by strategically recouping costs over a production run. What they shouldn't do is raise prices every 6 moths or so on the same product. Destroying whole markets for said product.

They also have to pay the millions in "free shipping" (shipping is not free for them) across the globe. The price of metal has risen dramatically in the past 20 years don't compare metal models to plastics.

Also the term price gouging needs to be defined correctly, raising prices is not price gouging. These prices are not unfair and most GW profits don't even come from the models, its the licensing for the video games.

Shipping isn't free, you know what is? website sales that include free shipping. By not selling through a distributor they are more than doubling their profits. By owning their retail stores they more than doubling their profits (in theory).

Now if you are speaking of shipping to independent retailers, the "free" shipping that you speak of is in essence a volume discount only offered on orders of quantity that more than offset the cost.

I wasn't comparing plastic to metal, metal is more expensive always has been. The fact is that the new plastics are more expensive than my old metal ones. The excuse being that metal is expensive? OK, GW has even made plans to charge as much for plastic as it does for metal.

You sir are drinking the cool aid and have come down with a case of the blind jingoisms. Its not often fatal, but will leave you bankrupt, monetarily, emotionally and spiritually

Again, why would anyone volunteer to pay more? It makes less sense than GW wanting to charge less. At least there is reason there. Increase sales volume, introduce product to more people, create customer loyalty...hell old vets might even buy some stuff, for the games that they haven't discontinued. Cough epic!

agnosto wrote:The problem with them having only one such set per new edition of rules is that they lose out on sales to people that could care less about the two armies they're trying to pawn off on us.

If you are new to the game you probably don't have a strong idea about which armies to play.

Anyway, AoBR contains two of the most popular armies. I don't know about the WHFB set.

AoBR is £55 in the UK. That doesn't seem like a terribly high price compared with high quality board games like Agricola, given you get a lot of plastic models in it.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:I know it's a great deal in comparison to all that you get out of it, but 100 USD is an awful lot to drop at once for a parent/teen just introduced to the hobby.

Yeah, seriously. I mean when i started and i saw the price of a space marine squad i was like "OMG $40 for some random bulky space dudes!!!". This is the sort of thing that scares off beginners in the first place.
What i think should happen is they release more AoBR type packages except get different units (because i don't like space marines ) like IG vs Tyranids or Tau vs Eldar.

Ultimately (as Andrew1975 so eloquently explained), GW charges what they do because they are a big fish in a small pond.

What will be interesting to me is to see how they fare with some serious competition. People have said you can't compare GW to Mantic because the GW multiparts are better. That may be true, but in a 200 model strong fantasy army are you really looking at the individual pose of every Empire State Trooper or Skaven Clanrat? Add into that the fact that Mantic are *GASP* talking to their customers and finding out what people want, not to mention the neat touches like every box of models being its own carry case and all of a sudden Mantic is looking better by the minute - and for a quarter of the cost!

All it will take is for one company to seriously challenge GW in the marketplace (something that, for a whole range of different reasons PP, Rackham et al have failed to do thus far) and you will see GWs current structure overhauled to the benefit of all players.

Mantic may well be able to make that breakthrough and I wish them every success after the start they have made.

Then we'll see if GW has what it takes to survive in a competitive environment...

AoBR in Australia went up to $150 in the last hike - that's $135USD. $90USD won't even get get you a Battlewagon/Land Raider over here.

Maelstrom Games is your friend - at Australian exchange rates it's about $86, or $78USD, with free postage. Pretty much buy two-for-one and pretend the extra $20 was postage.
Redbeard was absolutely right, though, when he says that even at full RRP it's cheaper than two new release video games for a pair of kids.

How will they 'recruit' new players?

They'll update an old method.

Dreadsock for belaying pin.

Sign em up and not tell them that there is a penalty for getting out (but it WILL be written in 2pt type on the bottom of the contract of sale).

If they don't read before signing, that's their own bad luck.

kastellan wrote:$165 in Australia. Wow thats gonna take me a while to save for lol. Stupid GW and there ridiculous prices. Yet I'm still going to buy it -.-

Why are you buying it in Australia when you can get it for around 40% off from lots of other places. From one Aussie to another - never buy locally. We pay +40% over what the US and UK prices are. Buying here is a complete rip-off.

And if, for some reason, you find yourself needing to buy direct from GW, buy from GWUK. You still get a 40% discount (compared to local prices) and shipping from the UK is quite good (as opposed to the US, where it's ultrastupidexpensive).

davetaylor wrote:I think back to the GW store I ran (in Sydney, Australia) 15 years ago. We'd regularly sell 20-30 "starter sets" of 2nd Edition 40K and 4th Edition Warhammer each month. Those boxed sets were $140 each.

You think wrong.

2nd Ed 40K and... at the time... 4th Ed Warhammer (I believe... 5th was with Lizardmen/Brettonians IIRC, so it must've been 4th Ed, High Elves/Orcs), they were $100 ($99.95 probably), and were like that for quite some time. I remember getting Necromunda for the same price, and only a while after was I shocked to learn that it was now at $120 (). Plus, as I said, Aussie prices are far higher than the US and UK, so any sort of comparison you make between what was then (in Australia) and what is now (in the US) is basically moot.

Hell I still remember tracking prices over several years with the old Death Company blister packs.

$11.50 when I started. Then $12.95. Then $13.50. Then 'White Metal' came around and suddenly those 3 Death Company per blister became 2 Death Company per blister, 'cept now they were $14.95. Then $15.95 a year later. They went from being $3.80 each to $7.97 in about 5-6-ish years. That's a pretty decent increase.

Bookwrack wrote:Because EVERY new player buys the starter box with no previous exposure to any miniature game or kit ever.

I didn't.

And I reckon most 11-12 year olds getting it for their Birthday/for Christmas have the same sort of experience.

So lose the attitude pal.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why are you buying it in Australia when you can get it for around 40% off from lots of other places. From one Aussie to another - never buy locally. We pay +40% over what the US and UK prices are. Buying here is a complete rip-off.

And if, for some reason, you find yourself needing to buy direct from GW, buy from GWUK. You still get a 40% discount (compared to local prices) and shipping from the UK is quite good (as opposed to the US, where it's ultrastupidexpensive).

Coz the my local gaming store needs more people to buy from it to keep it open and as its the only store nearby that allows you to go in and use their tables for free I'll still probs buy from there, even if it is a crap load more expensive.

Unlikely GW is making a loss at this price either, so it just proves how much of a mark up there is on the stuff.

Ailaros wrote:

evilsponge wrote:This isn't inflation at work, just good old fashioned price gouging.

No, it's "price correction". At no point did GW claim that their across-the-board 50% price hikes were because of inflation. As for gouging, I think you've taken for granted how cheap it was for so long. Yes, I said it, GW has been keeping their prices LOW all these years, thus the increase now.

As mentioned, everything else in the world has gotten a lot more expensive over time. The price of rice has quadruped in the last 5 years, the price of gold has tripled, the price of gas has doubled. The fact that GW went for 5 years without much rise in prices and then only increased by 50% actually makes their price hike CHEAP in comparison to everything else...

A simple definition for price gouging is to raise price through monopolistic practices above their market value. GW makes up such a large portion of the tabletop wargame market, the arguement could easily be made they have a monopoly. Thus any price rise not driven by a material price increase or inflation or legal dictates by GW is gouging by definition.

While prices of food have drastically shot up, the price of other reasources have not.

Ailaros wrote:
The fact that GW went for 5 years without much rise in prices and then only increased by 50% actually makes their price hike CHEAP in comparison to everything else.

GW has increased prices almost every year.

Its all about perception.

No-one here who plays the games can have a rationale perception of what a new player will think of the GW pricing.

It will come down to the individual.

Some parents will baulk at paying that price for 'toy soldiers', while others wont care.

GW will do what they have always done - charge what the market can bear. They will keep raising prices till they start losing sales at a rate that causes concern.

Until that happens, why would any business not charge as much as they can for a product?


As for the 'hobby' being expensive, what a load of rubbish. The 'GW-Hobby' (whatever that is) may be expensive but wargaming isnt. With regards to historical gaming you can enter it for a very low start up cost if you want too. Plastic figures abound these days. And yes, you can get decent figures for cheap - Perry Figures sell for £1 a figure. For the price of the WFB box set I could get a whole bunch of Perry metals! Of course I would end up spending a load more... But thats cos I suffer from 'ooooo Shiny' syndrome.


As a primarily historical gamer, I dont think its a bad price to be honest, and while some of the latest GW plastics have been awful to my eye, these plastics seem rather tasty and I may well get a set to use in my fantasy gaming.

But just cos I think its good value, dont mean a parent, with their first exposure to the game involves being thrust a £50 - £100 proce tag will feel the same...

Only time will tell what the ceiling is for GW products, and they will keep raising it till it falls in.

After playing the Dawn of War games, I pre-ordered the Assault on Black Reach starter set. It was the first 40k thing I ever owned, and it was $65.

I might not have gotten it were it $90. I know it's not a giant boundary, but there is an invisible line there between "inexpensive toy I can tack on to the bills this month" and "something I should save for, but never will, because I suck at saving and so will just never get it". $65 is a relatively easily digestible chunk.

To put it a different way, at $65 I'd get my stepson a starter set to see if he likes it, and at $90 I'd get him some clothes or sneakers instead.

"Get the tournament scene to drop the Citadel Only rule. When players start shopping at other companies for orcs and elves and Shock Troops, and get them cheaper, then GW will have to change its business practices. "

That would do it alright...

Phototoxin wrote:"Get the tournament scene to drop the Citadel Only rule. When players start shopping at other companies for orcs and elves and Shock Troops, and get them cheaper, then GW will have to change its business practices. "

That would do it alright...

Yes, I could definitely see that idea being kicked around with great success at a board meeting. "Hey, you know what our problem is? We're making too much money. Here's what we should do - at the events that we sponsor, which already cost us money, lets let our opponents product be used in those games. Not only will the extra market though exposure share hurt us (while we directly pay for them to do so), but we'll also be forced to lower our prices (while not our costs) to compete!"

depending on your location, the tournament scene might be completely independant of GW.
Some of the independant events STILL require GW only models, despite no help from GW. Weird, eh?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

davetaylor wrote:I think back to the GW store I ran (in Sydney, Australia) 15 years ago. We'd regularly sell 20-30 "starter sets" of 2nd Edition 40K and 4th Edition Warhammer each month. Those boxed sets were $140 each.

You think wrong.

2nd Ed 40K and... at the time... 4th Ed Warhammer (I believe... 5th was with Lizardmen/Brettonians IIRC, so it must've been 4th Ed, High Elves/Orcs), they were $100 ($99.95 probably), and were like that for quite some time. I remember getting Necromunda for the same price, and only a while after was I shocked to learn that it was now at $120 (). Plus, as I said, Aussie prices are far higher than the US and UK, so any sort of comparison you make between what was then (in Australia) and what is now (in the US) is basically moot.

H.B.M.C., thanks for cutting a tiny snippet from my post, letting me know what my memories should have been, then completely missing my point. Way to argue you on the Internet.

Now I remember why I steer clear of the Discussion sub-forums here on Dakka. Wait, let me use an orkmoticon so you know I'm just kidding

Cheers
Dave

If you're buying for two people, it's 45 dollars per kid.

Is it a lot? Yes. But really it's not terrible. I mean, some parents will make their kids pay for it themselves
or wait until their birthdays as a major purchase or reward.

Heck, the cable bill is probably more per month than those boxes.

Big P wrote:Perry Figures sell for £1 a figure. For the price of the WFB box set I could get a whole bunch of Perry metals!

Yep, you could get 60. Or you could get 64 plus five cavalry plus two big monsters plus two little war machines and an elf on a griffon in the IoB set.

And the historicals aren't expensive to get started in but GW is? I don't think you entirely thought that through.

The simple economics 101, is that supply and demand dictates, unless it is an inflexible demand, as prices rise so will demand drop. From GW perspective they are looking at this as an individual item, they will raise prices till the amount of extra money per box set they make is equal to the amount lost by drop in sales quantities. Make more for less effort.

So simply this price cuts down on the number of people who will get into the hobby. By how much, who knows?

This may be great in the short run, but the long term implications are unsustainable. The market reaction is one where as GW pushes their margin higher they make it easier for competition on a price point level to compete with them. This is why more companies are doing plastic miniatures now. They will eventually see migration to alternatives purely for that. You can't afford cocaine you buy crack.

The flip side is - will all the cool new stuff in the box make it seem like better value?

There is surely no argument that these minis aren't much better than the last box?

Andrew1975 wrote:The production that goes into a video game is massive. With GW products you do alot of the production, you have to pay for the paint, glue and other products . You get alot of playability with a video game, especially when you consider on line play. I know people that have easily racked up hours, days, weeks playing video games. How often do most people play more than a couple games of GW products a week? Comparing a video game to GW is apples and oranges.

Exactly, and that's why I hate threads like this. People who also make this comparison are extremely biased and seem to believe that all video games are $60+ (look somewhere else besides the new release section at Wal-Mart), and they never provide more than 4-5 hours of enjoyment, tops. It's bs and way more annoying to me than the constant bitching about price gouging.

I bought the Orange Box for $30 last month (yeah I know, I'm a little behind the times), and in that time I've put way more time into Team Fortress 2 than I have Warhammer 40k since 2007. More hours spent playing a game that I've owned for about a month than a game I've been into for three fething years. Saying all video games are expensive and short is like saying all GW miniatures look like the razorgor.

Also, why does everyone keep claiming that this box has $300+ worth of miniatures in it? It doesn't. You're not buying those kits, you're buying inferior snap-together models with very limited poses. They look good for what they are, but don't lie and try to claim they are the same thing as the multi-part plastic kits. I'd say it's an okay deal for a starter set, but to try and claim that this is some kind of a steal because buying all the real models separately would cost three times as much is ridiculous.

and if the staff in GW stores are honest about the costs and potential enjoyment of getting into the hobby

LOL

I seem to recall the 2nd Edition boxed set was $100. Don't quote me on that, it was a long time ago. Maybe that's the cost of the Basic boxed set and Dark Millenium together.

Kilkrazy wrote:

agnosto wrote:The problem with them having only one such set per new edition of rules is that they lose out on sales to people that could care less about the two armies they're trying to pawn off on us.

If you are new to the game you probably don't have a strong idea about which armies to play.

Anyway, AoBR contains two of the most popular armies. I don't know about the WHFB set.

AoBR is £55 in the UK. That doesn't seem like a terribly high price compared with high quality board games like Agricola, given you get a lot of plastic models in it.

I was thinking about the new IoB set...skaven and high elves. Though both armies might be popular (I have no idea) neither appeals at all to me whereas the AoBR set would appeal to a broad market since many people own some flavor of marine or other anyway. I like these sets in that they are a comparatively inexpensive means at acquiring grunts.

I think GW might sell more if they made army specific sets of these inexpensive, non-posable, sets for every army. This would allow an entry into the game (as they certainly do not include every model you need to make a complete, strong force). I view them as a sort of gateway drug; the dealer gives you a small free sample and then says, "Hey kid if you liked that, I've got some really good stuff over here.."

Army specific bundles would be a great way to go. Imagine if you could just buy the AOBR marines, rules, templates and such with maybe the addition of another tac squad or assault squad for the same price as the original set. I would think, my opinion here, that many people don't buy the sets because they don't want the other army and don't want to go through the trouble of finding a trade or selling the extras on e-bay (which is a separate issue as GW is just needlessly putting money in someone else's pocket). I know it would appeal to me (but maybe I'm just crazy and most people want to buy a bunch of models they don't want/need).

On the price end of things. I agree with what some posters are saying here in that they, GW, charge what we are willing to pay; there's noone to blame here but ourselves if you don't like the prices. Of course as consumers we would love to pay less for something and we'll always gripe when prices inevitably go up; however, there comes a price point for all of us beyond which we are not willing to go. You can only place so much value on your hobby, whatever it may be, before you say "Well, that's it then, no new toys for a while."v

Scott-S6 wrote:

Big P wrote:Perry Figures sell for £1 a figure. For the price of the WFB box set I could get a whole bunch of Perry metals!

Yep, you could get 60. Or you could get 64 plus five cavalry plus two big monsters plus two little war machines and an elf on a griffon in the IoB set.

And the historicals aren't expensive to get started in but GW is? I don't think you entirely thought that through.

Er... Well they aint poorly sculpted plastic figs from the Perrys are they?

I would rather have 60 figs from the Perries... More use to me.

But then most of the figures I buy are in the .55p bracket. Or a tank for £6.50...

Can no GW player take a little bit of criticism about their Overlords?

I'm just pointing out that you said historicals were cheaper and then gave an example that wasn't cheaper.

This was from another thread that was locked:

"I'm probably too sleepy to get this right so bear with me... I think this is interesting. I think we can actually figure out a rough estimate of how much it costs them to produce a kit from this report. 59% of their sales they get to keep the full amount and 41% are to independant sellers @ a 50% discount. so 6 kits direct for every 8 kits to independant stockists. (6*60+8*30)/14=$42.86 (average sale price) on which they make a 72% margin($30.86 margin) so actual cost to them to make a $60 kit is $12. so GW gets $48 if you buy it from them and $18 if you buy it from an independant retailer (the retailer pockets the difference) "

These are from GW's own numbers in their report. (before the recent prices rises).

Scott-S6 wrote:GBP60. That's one and half xbox games. Seems pretty reasonable to me for what you get.

I think that is an excellent point...the price of the box sets, while not inconsequential, are in line with other hobbies and forms of entertainment. As such, I don't think the prices necessarily represent a hurdle to new players.

This will hopefully give people an idea of what it actually costs to make this stuff.

Edit: I think compared to most other things that people buy, which are either very complicated (electronic equipment) or well finished (toys), most people will think paying these prices for what you get (unfinished, unpainted, plastic, without the means to finish them in the box) is well out of line with almost everything else they buy.

Holy crap Aobr 90$ I remember getting it last year for 60$ and then it jumped to around 75$ at my FLGS, but now about 100$ that is a real put off.

But youve already bought it and new players dont know it was 60 or 75

Kids buy the battle forces that are $90+ dollars. The starter set is like buying a battle force with rules.

Cheers

asmith wrote:This will hopefully give people an idea of what it actually costs to make this stuff.

Edit: I think compared to most other things that people buy, which are either very complicated (electronic equipment) or well finished (toys), most people will think paying these prices for what you get (unfinished, unpainted, plastic, without the means to finish them in the box) is well out of line with almost everything else they buy.

Compare it to a good quality model kits from another manufacturer. A decent 1/35 tank is GBP30-45.

I think my point went well over your head...

Meh considering lots of parents drop 300+ dollars for the latest gaming system (with no games mind you) I doubt the 100 dollar starter box will deter that many people.

I think it didn't, your premise was flawed. Comparing two ery different types of product does not serve to highlight anything.

Furthermore, you comment on how cheap these things are to produce, it costs more to make the IoB box set than a basic DVD player, something which is (very complicated). What relevance is the fact that it's complicated if it can be manufactured and sold more cheaply?

Scott-S6 wrote:I think it didn't, your premise was flawed. Comparing two ery different types of product does not serve to highlight anything.

Furthermore, you comment on how cheap these things are to produce, it costs more to make the IoB box set than a basic DVD player, something which is (very complicated). What relevance is the fact that it's complicated if it can be manufactured and sold more cheaply?

Maybe, depends on the production methodology. As far as materials, small amounts of precious metals go into circuitboards and other sundry internals in electronic equipment. The last time I looked, my little plastic soldiers weren't made of aluminum, gold, silver, etc..AND a great deal of plastic which are all much more expensive than just the small amount of plastic that goes into my box of toys.

A variety of raw materials are used in the construction of DVD players and disks. Glass is used to make the laser and other diodes in the system. The primary components on the circuit board are made from silicon. Aluminum metal is used for the housing as well as a hard plastic. The base material of the disks is plastic. They are additionally coated with a silver colored layer and a thin gold layer. The surface of the disk is further coated with a hard layer of lacquer to protect it from damage.

Read more: How dvd player is made - material, production process, history, used, processing, parts, components, structure, product, industry, machine, History, Design, Raw Materials http://www.madehow.com/Volume-4/DVD-Player.html#ixzz0wKEmp08S


Why can I walk into a WalMart and buy a DVD player for $25 when a box of army men costs $50? I get your point but it was not even close to a good comparison. It would be easier just to admit that prices are inflated because the company is able to do so due to the particular market and their share of said market. A great deal has been said about how archaic even such a basic process as stock management is at GW, their manufacturing process is probably even more silly. From a business standpoint, they would be much better off just outsourcing to China or India like even small miniatures companies do (wargames factory). People may argue that such miniatures are not as detailed, etc; however, it doesn't matter how complicated something is to create (iPhones are manufactured in China), the labor is so much cheaper as well as the overall operating costs associated with production.

Come to think of it, I bet you could commision some outstanding Chinese sculptors to make your figs and just move all pre and post production to mainland China.

*here's where I rub my hands together with an evil laugh*

Scott-S6 wrote:I think it didn't, your premise was flawed. Comparing two ery different types of product does not serve to highlight anything.

Furthermore, you comment on how cheap these things are to produce, it costs more to make the IoB box set than a basic DVD player, something which is (very complicated). What relevance is the fact that it's complicated if it can be manufactured and sold more cheaply?

Here you've proven you missed the point. the IoB box set should not cost more to produce than a basic DVD player. the fact that the DVD player can be got for cheaper just illustrates even more how overpriced the GW box is. A basic DVD player has all the design aspects that a IoB box has (many injection molded parts, glossy box) plus many more components made by other processes, exotic materials etc, and it is assembled and hopefully tested. Even people who are not engineers or into manufacturing can see that one thing is a lot harder to make than the other.

Well its like I said, they are like the American car manufactures back in the 70's. Turning out product for a captive audience so they got lazy. Now instead of raising prices they just made crap cars. But its all due to lack of serious competition and buyer complacency.

The reason you can get a DVD player for $25 is that there is so much competition, (plus you are probably buying a crap DVD player). Competition forces companies to streamline, make production more efficient, and liquidate unnecessary departments. Competition is the only real motivating factor for a company to change its practices.

A $25 dollar DVD is probably crap. But if you get a year out of it then great. That's a year of DVD for 25 dollars its still worth it, it might last you years. On the same note you can buy cheaper miniatures if you want also. There are many good quality miniatures for far less than GW charges. Hell you could use green army men if you wanted to. (yes yes yes, not at tournaments. I know, which brings up my next point).

That is a great point though. I understand wanting people to play with painted miniatures. But I have never understood why an independent tournament would require GW miniatures. As long as they are easily identifiable, what do you care? Unless GW is sponsoring or providing the prizes the have F@@@ all to do with it. Seriously, there is no room in the 40K universe for my Warzone, bauhus, imperial guard.....they look sweet they fit the codex even the command squads are Cadian Imperial supervisors. They were far better than the Guard that GW was producing at the time.

It's crazy the Fanboyism of some people. GW can get you to be their enforcer without any benefit to you. All the have to do is raise prices and not give a cent back to anybody for anything. Its crap. Hey why don't we just give GW the monopoly.

I think I may have just seen the owner of GW

@Andrew

GW provides almost all the prize support for stores that take the tiny bit of time it takes to talk to them. For GT's it's generally around 1,100-1,300 in prize support with another couple hundred in terrain support. So no Indy GT is going to allow non-GW armies (a model here and there they don't have a problem with). RTT also get around $140ish from GW again if you spend a tiny bit of time talking to them and your a store that orders their product. So unless those non-GW companies are going to fork over prize support store owners want to make money on their tournaments so they won't allow non GW armies.

*Edit* The above is US based. I don't know how they support tournaments in other countries.

You're just as much a debby downer on GW as some people are fan boys. Best part is you don't seem to know what your talking about (especially in regards to gouging). We get it, your angry. But no one is forcing you to buy GW. No one is forcing you to play GW. Go play WM/Hordes (almost the same cost) or historicals or something else. Harping on a company that you don't support is kinda pointless. Even if they read this crap they wouldn't listen to you since your not a customer.

They are just way overpriced, all the new plastic stuff coming out should be cheaper but its not. It's not fair to the hobbyists. All GW care about is sales

Hulksmash wrote:@Andrew

GW provides almost all the prize support for stores that take the tiny bit of time it takes to talk to them. For GT's it's generally around 1,100-1,300 in prize support with another couple hundred in terrain support. So no Indy GT is going to allow non-GW armies (a model here and there they don't have a problem with). RTT also get around $140ish from GW again if you spend a tiny bit of time talking to them and your a store that orders their product. So unless those non-GW companies are going to fork over prize support store owners want to make money on their tournaments so they won't allow non GW armies.

You're just as much a debby downer on GW as some people are fan boys. Best part is you don't seem to know what your talking about (especially in regards to gouging). We get it, your angry. But no one is forcing you to buy GW. No one is forcing you to play GW. Go play WM/Hordes (almost the same cost) or historicals or something else. Harping on a company that you don't support is kinda pointless. Even if they read this crap they wouldn't listen to you since your not a customer.

Some good points in there, but one that's not so good: GW should potentially listen to him because he COULD be a customer. If they only listen to current customers, they are less likely to expand their sales.
And in Ireland at least, GW doesn't do a lot for independant tournaments. Well, the staffers are enthusiastic friendly guys, and they'll help out, but the company doesn't do much for the tournament scene. So it depends on where you go. (Ireland is probably a pretty small market to be fair- small population, low population density.)
I think GW makes the best plastics in the business, but they are outside my price range. I don't think commenting about it is a bad thing, or that you have any right to tell me or others to stop.

aka_mythos wrote:A simple definition for price gouging is to raise price through monopolistic practices above their market value.

What? Raising above market value? Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay.

In the case of a monopoly, the monopolizer DETERMINES market value, which is why it's not possible to "gouge" based on your definition.

Da Boss wrote:I don't understand why people get so aggressive and derisive when someone says that they think something isn't good value for money.

Because that's not what's happening. The OP wasn't simply stating "this hobby is expensive", it was someone moaning and whining about how they can't afford their favorite toy. People get bothered by this once they're old enough to have had to actually sacrifice things for what they want (like time, money, and in my case for 40k, time, money, and blood), rather than throwing a tantrum when they don't get what they want.

Yeah, it's not "fair" that GW raised prices.... get over yourselves.

Da Boss wrote:I don't think commenting about it is a bad thing, or that you have any right to tell me or others to stop.

Maybe not in Ireland, but in the US we actually do have a right to tell you to stop. (Not to make you stop, just to be able to tell you to.)

Just as anyone has a right to moan about something, and keep on moaning about it after asked to stop.)

Otherwise the interwebs would grind to a halt


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And back to the original topic:

Veterans moaning about the price being to high has nothing to do with getting new people into the hobby.

Day it comes out I'll be putting some of those high elfs on a hook, and casting them out into the mall to reel in a few new customers and sell them a set.

I don't even have to throw back the small ones I catch!

If I do my job right, they have fun and start into a new hobby, I make money, and the parents get the cheapest babysitting they've ever heard of, every saturday at my shop. Win/Win/Win

Put the set together today. Very, very nice models. Makes me want to do something un-natural, like paint High Elfs.

Euzebeau wrote:They are just way overpriced, all the new plastic stuff coming out should be cheaper but its not. It's not fair to the hobbyists. All GW care about is sales

They're a fething business, of course they care about sales.

I'm quite happy to pay $90 for AoBR (not that I did, seriously go find a discount retailer), my gf needed basic tactical marines, the dreadnought was great, basic terminators are awesome, and it gives her a change to play around with Orks. What's not to like? Sure, the extra options from the proper boxes are good and all, but there is a place for base line units, and it sucks having to make basic troops when you have all these pretty options that you'll never use.

GW provides almost all the prize support for stores that take the tiny bit of time it takes to talk to them. For GT's it's generally around 1,100-1,300 in prize support with another couple hundred in terrain support. So no Indy GT is going to allow non-GW armies (a model here and there they don't have a problem with). RTT also get around $140ish from GW again if you spend a tiny bit of time talking to them and your a store that orders their product. So unless those non-GW companies are going to fork over prize support store owners want to make money on their tournaments so they won't allow non GW armies.

*Edit* The above is US based. I don't know how they support tournaments in other countries.

You're just as much a debby downer on GW as some people are fan boys. Best part is you don't seem to know what your talking about (especially in regards to gouging). We get it, your angry. But no one is forcing you to buy GW. No one is forcing you to play GW. Go play WM/Hordes (almost the same cost) or historicals or something else. Harping on a company that you don't support is kinda pointless. Even if they read this crap they wouldn't listen to you since your not a customer.

That is the sound of another Fanboy earning his wings

But see Hulksmash, I was a customer, a great customer.

Lets see
40k : 2 companies of spacemarines, landraiders, rhinos, Eldar army, Imperial Guard army, Chaos marine army
Warhammer : Dark Elves, Empire, Skaven,
Blood bowl, dungeon bowl,: Dark elf team, dwarf team, elf team, human team, skaven team, orc team,
Space marine, space marine 2nd ed, titan legions,: space marines army, chaos army, Imperial guard army, 2 full titan legions (one chaos, one loyalist) each with 4 warhounds, 3 reavers, 3 warlords and an imperator, and a knight titans army
Advanced hero quest, advanced space crusade, space hulk with all the modules
Necromunda. Don't remeber which gang, I used my tallarens.
Dark future, Whiteline Fever
I even have some of those stupid troll games, not to mention chainsaw warrior and block mania.
If it was put out by GW I owned it or played it at some point.

And you know what I bought all that while I was in high school and college. Not even at my peak of earning potential. Yeah it was good times. You could get a good army for $100 instead of $1000.

So yeah I was a good customer. So were all my friends. We played all the time. Hell we still play, but we are not buying anything new....it's too expensive. I love my old minis, but the new terminators are better than my old ones, stern guard are cool, My dark elves are so old they are all armed with hand weapons, dark elf warriors cant even have hand weapons anymore! There are a lot of miniatures my friends and I would buy if they were not way overpriced. My god if they would put out a new epic scale that was more like 2nd ed with all the new vehicles and units!!!!!!! But they would probably want $5 a piece for epic scale plastic razorback.

There are a ton of old gamers that would buy stuff, but GW has priced a most reasonable adults out of the market. And guess what GW we have kids. If you think vets wont buy the stuff for themselves......they are not going to buy it for their kids. Now that the hobby has gone from cheap entertainment to apparently a plastic crack addiction you will never see my kids buy a single product from GW. Maybe used on ebay, or a competitors stuff.

GW policy seams to be that new people buy more stuff so screw the vets. But every business knows it is cheaper to keep your old clients than get new ones. We may not buy as much stuff as the new guys right away, but we buy so much more over the long haul.

So don't tell me what to play and how to play it Fanboytastic Hluksmash. At least I have reason to be a Debbie Downer (which I really only am on GW pricing practices). What's your excuse for the bowing down to the Alter of GW? You know the more you support them the more they will just keep raising the price.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I'm quite happy to pay $90 for AoBR (not that I did, seriously go find a discount retailer),

Contradict yourself much? Were you happier paying $60 a couple years ago. I'm sure if someone offered it to you for $30 you wouldn't buy it?

The second you say you are happy and ok with the prices, GW knows they can raise them.

Let's face it. If the IoB box sold for 60$ then everyone would be playing Skaven or High Elves for months to come. The only people that would buy it would be players already playing the game, seeking to bolster their current armies or start new ones. At 99$ it's a terrific deal given the current price of figures*. It's essentially 2 95$ battalion boxes worth of figs plus rules, dice, etc... Entry into the hobby for two players for "less than 100$." So for the truly new player, it's really 50$, provided they can find a friend to split and enjoy it with. A steal, really.

*Arguing the overall price of the hobby in general is a completely different discussion that I'd rather not get into. There are two sides to that fight, neither interested in having their opinions changed.

It's essentially 2 95$ battalion boxes worth of figs . . . .

I don't know why the figs in IoB are being compared to their counterparts that are boxed separately. If they had put the 'regular' minis into this set rather than less-pieces-as-possible starter minis, then I could see the heftier tag. Would you shell out $95 for either army in the IoB on its own?

Let's face it. If the IoB box sold for 60$ then everyone would be playing Skaven or High Elves for months to come. The only people that would buy it would be players already playing the game, seeking to bolster their current armies or start new ones. At 99$ it's a terrific deal given the current price of figures*. It's essentially 2 95$ battalion boxes worth of figs plus rules, dice, etc... Entry into the hobby for two players for "less than 100$." So for the truly new player, it's really 50$, provided they can find a friend to split and enjoy it with. A steal, really

.

Lets face what? By this logic a $50,000 2 bedroom house should really be $100,000. I could just find a roommate and we could both enjoy the pride of home ownership. And car companies should price cars so that people have to car pool. It's nonsense.

Besides there is only one rule book in the box.

You know what, this wouldn't be so bad if the stock was flying. But its not, so obviously they are doing something wrong. The customers are paying for that mismanagement. You can't throw money at problems. If you can't make money at $2 a miniature you can't make it at $4 or $6 if the management is lacking or your business model is flawed.

I actually think the minis in the new box are great, as good or better than even the old metal ones. I don't mind single pose with variety, look at the multi pose dark elf warriors CRAPTASTIC. Ill keep my old maurader regiments thank you. Do you really need super individual models in a packed unit? I don't need to be able to see the time on a marines wrist watch either.

Andrew1975 wrote:

I'm quite happy to pay $90 for AoBR (not that I did, seriously go find a discount retailer),

Contradict yourself much? Were you happier paying $60 a couple years ago. I'm sure if someone offered it to you for $30 you wouldn't buy it?

The second you say you are happy and ok with the prices, GW knows they can raise them.

Not a contradiction, I'd be willing to pay $90 for it, but I'd be stupid if I would pay that much if I can get it for less. I honestly would be willing to pay more for it, because I know the units in it are just that good.

And what is it with gamers not understanding that GW is, first and foremost, a business? Do you think they're a charity, or maybe a non-profit? I personally love how the only thing people in this thread are looking at is material cost. I work in a factory, we care a lot more than about the material cost. Let's see, there's the equipment, the labor, the packaging, the shipping (even just from factory to warehouse), oh, and quality control (which is what I'm personally in). There's also the cost of development (good modelers and painters cost money) and administrative costs. There's the bandwidth for their website. The customer support phonelines also cost money. Oh, and the lawyers. I'm sure I'm forgetting other costs, but those boxes of plastic have to pay for it.

yes but I've covered that, If GW was able to cover all these costs years ago at $1-2 for metal and $.75 for plastic minis when sale were low. Surely they can cover it now at $3-4 for metal and $1.5-$2 for plastic when sales have skyrocketed and still make a hefty profit. That is a 100% increase on a plastic product with little labor involved in the production process. The fact that they are so above and beyond this...its laughable. And during a global recession no less. When the economy recovers just think of what they will believe they can get away with.

All companies have administration costs, you know what GW doesn't have. Assembly and paint departments, like most toy companies do. That GI Joe guy, believe it or not was just a piece of plastic on a sprue, there is still a lot of hand labor in those assembly processes. That $25 DVD player, has all those admin costs, even higher material costs. I'm no engineer but to design a DVD player from start to finish is probably more complex and costly than designing a few sprues of minis ...I could be wrong there.

Unfortunately I can not find a good product to compare them to. So lets take gi joes. Much more labor intensive in the production. In 20 years they have gone from $3 to $6. They are a bit bigger and are more detailed and articulate than the ones I used to buy as a kid. So 100% increase, I accept this as labor prices have skyrocketed in 20 years. Material costs have gone up for both products (plastic). There is comparatively little labor in GW products. So a 600% price increase in 20 years gets under my skin.

The production of most anything from a gi joe to a dvd player is ridiculous. So many bits and pieces

Production at GW

GW. step1 melt plastic beads, step2 inject in mold, step3 cool and eject sprue. Step 4 see step 1

Oh yeah they don't have any real competition yet, so they can charge what they want. (que mantic)

I guess I just miss when they were a small fun company, putting out things like Chaos toilets, and throwing in bags of goodies when you ordered stuff. You know it was nice not feeling like I was getting taken for a ride when I bought something. Now it just insults me.

I have a hard time believing that the assembly is done by hand, not when I work at a fething factory. The only thing done by hand here is stacking the pallets (except when the robot is doing it), otherwise it's people making sure the machinery doesn't make mistakes. And it really does sound like you're mad at a company for being a company and wanting to make a profit.

Andrew1975 wrote:

I guess I just miss when they were a small fun company, putting out things like Chaos toilets, and throwing in bags of goodies when you ordered stuff. You know it was nice not feeling like I was getting taken for a ride when I bought something. Now it just insults me.

Rose colored glasses? A small fun company with not enough customers - where do you think all the models they produce now come from? Previous the stuff was totally undercosted and we were getting bargins - the fact that prices have risen and people keep buying prove that. I think the price rise should have stopped around $30 per unit box (16+ models etc for fantasy) but @ $30 it seemed an OK price.

Back then the models were crap in comparison. They really were - you put some of the old metals from 15-20years again against some of the plastics of today and no-one can argue it isn't better.

Anyway - you're not being taken for a ride coz you're not buying.

fullheadofhair wrote:
A small fun company with not enough customers - where do you think all the models they produce now come from?

China, mostly

Anyway - you're not being taken for a ride coz you're not buying.

My point exactly.

A small fun company with not enough customers

Not sure where you get that. As far as I know they only started having money issues once they got bigger and started charging more. I pretty sure they were doing just fine back in the day. They had plenty of tournaments, ran games days, sold lots of miniatures and they had about 10 pretty well known games and many smaller ones. Now they have 1 game 40K, the last few editions of fantasy did not go very well for them.

Look i'm not trying to say lets have 30 marines for 18 bucks, But 10 marines for $20 isn't so bad, but 10 for $40 is insanity.

@Andrew

Your a very angry man about something you don't collect anymore. Also I'd like to disagree about a good army being $100. I've been buying since second edition and no army has ever cost me $100. If your talking rogue trader then maybe but that was before my time. I'm not a fanboy. Just a realist. I myself rarely purchase products from GW unless they are a) amazing and b) something my army can use to make it better. And even then my hobby is normally paid for by others (commission or tournament winnings). But I don't complain about the price because guess what? It's not something I'm willing to get worked up about. If they price me then they price me out. I'm a grown-up. I can decide when something isn't worth it to me. And I don't internet rage at people because of the price of a hobby no one is making me purchase.

I also like how you completely slide slid most of my post and simply focused on one small part. Kudos to you my friend. Enjoy your rage.

I can't stop laughing at the people saying a kid would go for a handful of plastic for $100 instead of two just released video games! Now we know who the real addicts are .

As a kid which would you pick?

Games-Workshop:
Island of Blood - $99

Alternative:
Halo 3 - $20
Gears of War 2 - $20
Left 4 Dead - $20
Bioshock - $20
Dead Rising - $20

Or go buy them pre-owned and throw in 2-3 more games. True they are older games, but the prices drop quickly shortly after the big release.

Model for model it's not a terrible deal, until you consider that the ENTIRE boxed set is chock full of the least popular troop choices in WHFB. I've never, ever put a High Elf on a griffon. Swordmasters suck in 8th ed. Poison Wind mortars aren't the best things in the world. What the hell are you going to do with 2 rat ogres? Ellyrian Reavers are borderline useless.
I don't see how these things are going to sell to veterans, and the new players who come in, if they do, will do so because some GW rep took them for a ride in explaining what a good deal the starter box was. They'll soon realize that while they might have $300 worth of miniatures, it's really $300 worth of garbage.
The only exception: the clanrats.

Don't be such a drama queen, ten Sea Guard will win you every game! At least that is what the employee told me (while making overly dramatic sound effects).

Because they can shoot AND they have spears!!!

I also like how you completely slide slid most of my post and simply focused on one small part. Kudos to you my friend. Enjoy your rage.

Kind of like you did huh with my post huh!

Hulksmash, You tell me how to play and what to play and I wasn't a good customer and you say I have the rage?

Not really angry, i've got my minis.

I'm dissapointed that the players let GW get away with it.
I'm annoyed because if I ran either of my companies this way I'd be out of business.

Some minis are better now, some are worse than they were. We could give lists but it'd just be cherry picking. In general they are better, I can admit that. But not 600% better.

Better is also a relative term, the details of sculpts are better in most cases (much worse in others). Many of the "multipose" really only work in one pose, standing strait up. I guess if i wanted to have a parade that would be great. I dont think everyone needs to be a character model though with the details, but hey a dynamic pose might be nice. They don't play any better. Your $40 squad of marines can't beat my $7 squad of marines. Most people probably can't even paint to the level required to make the new details stand out.

I think what saddens me the most is when I hear people like you, (probably a guy who loves the hobby and has given GW tones of cash, and deserves some loyalty from them) go "Yeah it's expensive but I suck it up every once in a while and buy something". Why should you have to suck it up? Why do you defend a company that makes you suck it up. They don't have to make you suck it up you know. They could just make it ........affordable. It's called better business practices.

People defend prices for only one reason. They'll be damned if they are made fools by a company dropping the prices like that. They really want to believe that these plastic men are worth what they were charged, because that is what they paid for them. You know what, to you maybe they are worth that. But that's not what they cost, and it's not what they should cost. It's not right. YOU SHOULD BE THE ONE WITH RAGE. Not me, i got my minis, or i'll get them used. When I have kids.......maybe they will get them used I don't know.

Competition is going to come along. You should support it! What you shouldn't do is bury your head in the sand and understand that the $40 in plastic that you just bought costs about $4 total to manufacture.

I have a hard time believing that the assembly is done by hand, not when I work at a fething factory. The only thing done by hand here is stacking the pallets (except when the robot is doing it), otherwise it's people making sure the machinery doesn't make mistakes. And it really does sound like you're mad at a company for being a company and wanting to make a profit.

You work in a factory where? The united states. Where labor is the most expensive in the world? Yes, You will witness very little hand assembly done there.

Where are most products made (especially the ones I was referring to)? Where labor is cheaper than machinery. Where they don't have to pay unions. Go to any major factory in China or the third world....its hand assembly.

Disclaimer

Oh please don't get me started on globalization and outsourcing of jobs, I'm not a fan of outsourcing manufacturing, but as far as I know GW products are not produced in the USA (and I'm not sure if they are still produced in England), so they might as well be produced in china to save the customer money. (sorry England...just my two cents...keep your stiff upper lip and all). However again comparative to the other products I used as an example there is very little labor involved in the cost of GW products, so move those machines back to England. (Good show chaps) Either way if these are manufactured in England or the U.S. the prices are still crazy, if they are made in china they are redonkulous

The price for GW plastics will be coming way down, at the bankruptcy clearance sale, if they keep doing what they are doing.

Andrew1975 wrote:snip

I also feel the prices on GW miniatures are borderline outrageous, but this is DakkaDakka. People will argue that GW is great for saving them a few bucks, completely ignoring the fact the models went from metal to plastic and that it was GW who drove the metal prices that high in the first place. I think you'll find that most people who feel like you do are not on the forums. To be honest they're probably not doing anything GW.

Andrew1975 wrote:You work in a factory where? The united states. Where labor is the most expensive in the world? Yes, You will witness very little hand assembly done there.

Where are most products made (especially the ones I was referring to)? Where labor is cheaper than machinery. Where they don't have to pay unions. Go to any major factory in China or the third world....its hand assembly.

Disclaimer

Oh please don't get me started on globalization and outsourcing of jobs, I'm not a fan of outsourcing manufacturing, but as far as I know GW products are not produced in the USA (and I'm not sure if they are still produced in England), so they might as well be produced in china to save the customer money. (sorry England...just my two cents...keep your stiff upper lip and all). However again comparative to the other products I used as an example there is very little labor involved in the cost of GW products, so move those machines back to England. (Good show chaps) Either way if these are manufactured in England or the U.S. the prices are still crazy, if they are made in china they are redonkulous

A lot of their products are are now made in china, with modern equipment(Your info on china seens to be a decade behind here), the chinese have modernized their production capabilities considerably.

I don't know if they they still produce any pieces in the Tennessee factory, they were a few years ago when they moved the facility from Baltimore.

davetaylor wrote:H.B.M.C., thanks for cutting a tiny snippet from my post, letting me know what my memories should have been, then completely missing my point. Way to argue you on the Internet.

Now I remember why I steer clear of the Discussion sub-forums here on Dakka. Wait, let me use an orkmoticon so you know I'm just kidding

Oh harden up Dave. It's the internet - it's not like it's 'serious business' or anything. And besides, quoting your entire post would have been a waste of time, as I was only responding to the error you made, not the point you were making.

I think you are 100% correct in that statement Andrew1975. Just because you like the product, doesn't mean you have to bend over and assume the position. The only reason they get away with it is because they can, and if their customers had any sense or willpower they would put a stop to it.

Andrew1975 wrote:

People defend prices for only one reason. They'll be damned if they are made fools by a company dropping the prices like that. They really want to believe that these plastic men are worth what they were charged, because that is what they paid for them.

Amen to that. Someone just hit the nail with a hammer.

Andrew, I think we had the same GW experience.

Bet you still have your original copy of Orcs Drift and Chapter Approved...