12265
Post by: Gwar!
So, with Invulnerable Saves on vehicles being the "in" thing now, it seems almost certain Living Metal will become an Invulnerable save. Just curious what you dakkaites think or if you disagree, what should be done to Living Metal?
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Post by: pdawg517
I think the Monolith is fine as is in this department. They are hard enough to kill without S10 ordinance.
17279
Post by: Irdiumstern
I think living metal is fairly unique and stylish, not to mention iconinc, and is still very applicable in 5th. Maybe a +5 invul on top of it, but I doubt that they'll get rid of it entirely.
25727
Post by: Darkvoidof40k
Personally I think they should and will replace the current rules with a 4++. It's what I did for my fandex (see signature).
28522
Post by: ShasO Ben
I think it'll be changed to a 5++ and still have the current rules that it does now.
We might be waiting ages for this so just enjoy living metal as it is now I think before they make it better or nerf it.
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Post by: Kurgash
I'd like it to stay the way it is, it fits and works fine. But this is Matt Ward writing the Necrons so sanity is out the window.
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Post by: MekanobSamael
You notice that with the exception of the Battlewagon and KFF Mek, there isn't a single vehicle with AV 14 and an invulnerable save. I think this should stay as it is.
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Post by: asimo77
They should have living metal, immune to AP 1 damage bonus, 15 armour all around, 3++ save, only damaged by explodes results but need 2 of such a result to destroy, if it suffers 1 destroyed result it can regenerate on a 3+ and put the counter back to 0.
And be like I dunno 100 points?
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Post by: Bloodhorror
The Upgrade?!
or is that 100 points for the model?!
28753
Post by: Nulipuli2
asimo77 wrote:They should have living metal, immune to AP 1 damage bonus, 15 armour all around, 3++ save, only damaged by explodes results but need 2 of such a result to destroy, if it suffers 1 destroyed result it can regenerate on a 3+ and put the counter back to 0.
And be like I dunno 100 points?
So you want to turn the Monolith into a Super-Heavy Apocalypse vehicle?
32190
Post by: asimo77
Before people think I'm crazy I was just joking. Tbh I wouldn't change monoliths at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though something like that would be epic for trolling, I already love it when all my models get back up.
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Post by: Ailaros
I don't like living metal the way it is. Both living metal and gauss technology come from an era when glances killed vehicles. As that's no longer the case, gauss needs to be mad better and living metal needs to be made worse (or at least both of them need to be made different).
As it is, the range of weapons which can seriously deal with a monolith is terrifically small, and that you need to bring one of those like 3 weapons in order to play against a good necron player is unfortunate.
What they should do is to make it so that a monlith can still be hurt by all weapons which are good against AV14, but make it tougher, like the proposed invul save, or something equivalent to holofields, or night shields, or have the ability to simply throw away one damage result per turn, or something.
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Post by: Mahtamori
Playing Eldar, I have to try and get lucky with Witchblades, or I'll have to tailor my list to deal with the Monolith. I'd prefer an invulnerable save, but that's the curse of an army consisting of S6 and S8 weapons. Well, or go for phase out.
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Post by: Grunt_For_Christ
So what vehicles actually have an invulnerable save?
The KFF does NOT give ork vehicles an invul. It makes them count as obscured, which confers a cover save. In close combat that means nothing.
An invulnerable save does offer protection from close combat attacks. Is this correct Gwar?
I am seeing this issue come up more and more and am mystified by the idea that vehicles getting an invul as opposed to a cover save.
As to the necrons, I like the monolith as is. It's the most unkilllable vehicle in the game at a modest price tag. Without living metal Necrons just got a whole lot less interesting, as is the same if they make we'll be back FNP.
The necrons are iconic and unique. I vote for not making them bland and uninteresting fluff wise.
28383
Post by: Mahtamori
Hint: New Dark Eldar codex.
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Post by: Grunt_For_Christ
You're kidding right?
25559
Post by: SweetLou
ummm leave as is, bloody melta spammers
5182
Post by: SlaveToDorkness
It should have FNP...
25220
Post by: WarOne
If the Necrons are not going to get any other kind of vehicle, then the Monolith should get to keep its current rule set more or less. Perhaps give it upgrade to make it AV 15 would be cool (and insane to kill).
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Post by: Tzeentchling9
You guys have it all wrong. The monolith won't get any invul saves. In fact, it'll probably lose some things and get a price hike.
Now, the new fast flyer/skimmer transport with multiple missile payloads without a model or a pic in the codex that they will get will defiantly have a ++3 save!
OT: Maybe as a separate upgrade, but probably not re-placing the Living Metal rule(at least I hope not).
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Post by: Gwar!
Tzeentchling9, you are probably right. GW Doesn't need to sell more monoliths, so they will nerf them and make a new unit super powerful (with a handy new £40 kit).
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Post by: asimo77
Actually in all seriousness 15 armour would be pretty neat. But honestly I have a sinking feeling that the new necrons are going to be terrible anyway.
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Post by: WarOne
asimo77 wrote:Actually in all seriousness 15 armour would be pretty neat. But honestly I have a sinking feeling that the new necrons are going to be terrible anyway.
Well, with the codex creep people talk about, the new Necrons will probably be REALLY good, but of course that is all speculation as we do not know when will be the next codex update and what exactly the new Necrons will have. We have rumors and such, but if anything is an indication (Dark Eldar), the new Necrons will probably get several new vehicles that will compliment a Monolith that will have more options. Perhaps they will have several types of Monoliths as a choice, each like a different flavor of a Leman Russ or a Land Raider.
Ooo..I would love to take a squadron (trio) of mini-Monoliths that have AV12 all sides and Living Metal. 
32190
Post by: asimo77
Well so far the only xenos codex for 5th edition, tyranids, has been kinda lack-luster or so I have heard. Even if deldar are great that's still 1/2 the xenos 5th ed dexes being meh.
Then again I'm a pessimist :(
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Post by: Jackmojo
I suggested AV14 with a 4+ invulnerable save for the monolith a long time ago and still think that's a better rule then the current living metal "nyah, nyah you don't get the rules you think you do" version.
Better protection for more stuff, coupled with not specifically gimping the one race who's tech ought to be good at fighting Necrons...
Jack
12265
Post by: Gwar!
So, The best suggestions so far seem to be:
Keep it.
AV 15 but lose it
AV14 with Invul but lose it.
I actually like the idea of a AV15 vehicle.. 
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
How many vehicles are there with invulnerable saves?
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Post by: Gwar!
Kilkrazy wrote:How many vehicles are there with invulnerable saves?
Lots, now the DE codex has come around.
At first it was just Bjorn, now every single vehicle in the DE codex can have one.
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Post by: Daemonhound63
Gwar! wrote:So, The best suggestions so far seem to be: Keep it. AV 15 but lose it AV14 with Invul but lose it. I actually like the idea of a AV15 vehicle..
Im going to need a bigger railgun "Cheify"
29408
Post by: Melissia
Remove its invulnerability to +#d6 weapons (such as melta, eviscerators, chainfists, etc) and give them a 4++ save.
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
Gwar! wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:How many vehicles are there with invulnerable saves?
Lots, now the DE codex has come around.
At first it was just Bjorn, now every single vehicle in the DE codex can have one.
Well, which? How does it work? I thought they only had three vehicles.
That still leaves 90% of the codexes in the game without invulnerable saves.
Do you think that it is a new idea (I use the term loosely) from GW and we will see the next two or three codexes having invulnerable saves for vehicles?
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Post by: Mahtamori
Isn't it a vehicle upgrade that gives 5++?
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Post by: Nulipuli2
The Dark eldar have 5 vehicles which can get the Flickerfield upgrade for 10 points.Flickerfield connfers a 5+ inv save
4003
Post by: Nurglitch
And those are what, AV10 vehicles?
13705
Post by: the_ferrett
>< HTF do you kill AV15?
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Post by: asimo77
Lotsa dakka
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Post by: hemingway
it's fine as it is imo. most good players ignore them and go for phase out anyway. clean up the rules to a 5th ed. standard and bob's your uncle.
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Post by: Melissia
Orks have 4+ cover saves on their vehicles from the KFF, which is basically the same as a 4++ invulnerable given that most things which ignore cover aren't good at damaging vehicles.
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Post by: Daemonhound63
Tau get a obscured target upgrade for vehicles as long as it is being shot at from further than 12". That is a 4+ Cover from any weapon outside 12".
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Post by: Jackmojo
Gwar! wrote:
I actually like the idea of a AV15 vehicle..
I've been toying with re-writing the superheavy stats (for the ones we have in my game group at least) to allow armour 15+
I'm really not a fan of Titans, Leviathans and the like having worse armour then a Land Raider, hell even the Baneblade and such used to be better protected in Epic then the Land Raider.
Jack
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Post by: Nurglitch
hemingway wrote:it's fine as it is imo. most good players ignore them and go for phase out anyway. clean up the rules to a 5th ed. standard and bob's your uncle.
Technically I'm Uncle Bob, but I think you're right.
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
KFF and Disruption Pod are slightly different things though.
The KFF can be avoided by weapons which ignore Cover, or by destroying the Big Mech unit carrying the KFF generator.
The Tau Disruption Pod can be ignored by getting inside 12 inches.
If the DE vehicles have a 5++ save and AV 10 it means you just need to hit them with several heavy weapons and get a bit lucky.
Are the DE vehicles all still open top?
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Post by: the_ferrett
*is still confused.* Wouldn't str 9 only glance meaning only str 10 could pen? and str 16 would be must glance with str 10... so it'd be invulnerable?
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Post by: asimo77
Well unless they change how weapon destroyed results work on it, then essentially yes.
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Post by: Gwar!
AV 15 but no living metal. That's the catch!
@Kilkrazy: Yes, the Raider, Ravager and Venom are still open topped. The two new vehicles, Razorwing Jetfighter and Voidraven Bomber are closed top.
And don't forget, Cover saves for vehicles can be ignored by a big ol' Power Fist, Invulnerable saves cannot!
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Post by: Thaylen
Kilkrazy wrote:KFF and Disruption Pod are slightly different things though.
The KFF can be avoided by weapons which ignore Cover, or by destroying the Big Mech unit carrying the KFF generator.
The Tau Disruption Pod can be ignored by getting inside 12 inches.
If the DE vehicles have a 5++ save and AV 10 it means you just need to hit them with several heavy weapons and get a bit lucky.
Are the DE vehicles all still open top?
Killing a Big mek when he is inside the battlewagon in question is really hard. Most wagons have deffrollas and are moving at full speed. Thus they are hard as hell to hit w/ close combat weapons as well.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
The last time I played against Orks with a KFF it was before the Deffrolla had been clarified as being awesome, so people weren't using them.
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Post by: liam0404
Sort of off topic (someone mentioned it earlier), what do you thing Gauss weapons will be changed to? Some theoies that we had included reducing it to S3, but making it rending. We figured that S4 rending might be a little too powerful for rank and file troops to have.
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Post by: Gwar!
Ranged Rending full stop is too powerful.
I have no idea what they will change it to tbh. The only advantage Gauss has against non-vehicles is against T8+, which there is little to none anymore.
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Post by: liam0404
When you put it like that it does seem overpowered. It definately needs a lot of thought.
As for the monolith, I think dropping living metal and making the monolith AV15 is a fantastic idea. It would really make it unique compared to other vehicles as well.
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Post by: Gwar!
Maybe with a 5+ Invul as well?
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Post by: liam0404
That could work - though I shudder to think what the point cost of the "Newlith" would be. Especially if it retained the Particle Whip + Gauss flux arcs.
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Post by: Chaos Lord Gir
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the 'newlith' ended up being Av14, revamped Living metal and end up just adding a structure point or somthing 
Although for what my opinion is worth, I think the Monolith is fine, if they want to upgrade it to compete with invun saves, just make it immune to glancing or somthing along those lines.
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Post by: Zid
Its fine as is. Slow, huge (so easy to hit), immune to anything that would get bonuses pretty much (a melta could still wreck it however)... Its honestly fine. Its weaponry is right where it should be as well. Keep the lith as it is!
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Post by: Kevin949
I'm inclined to agree with Zid, though it does need some rules overhauling/clarification, I don't see the big issue with monoliths as they are. Yes, they're tough to kill, but they're also slow and have a limited amount of weaponry, are a HUGE target and rarely ever benefit from obscured saves and it is extremely easy to block the ONLY exit point on the vehicle (for what that's worth, anyway).
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Post by: SlaveToDorkness
Agreed, it needs little change just updated rules for clarification. Much like the entire codex IMHO. Cheaper warriors and better abilities on the currently useless units and they're fine.
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Post by: Praxiss
I like Living Metal as it is....although the thought of AV15 is tempting as well!
I actually toyed with the idea of makign a "minilith" a whiel ago. It was go to be a smaller 'lith, with the portal and a single gauss flux ar projector. With AV12 and Livign Metal. I was also goign to have it be a normal "Skimmer"
I thought it sounded pretty good. Tough but limited weaponry.
I think i was going to call it a Nexus or something like that.
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Post by: Melissia
Kilkrazy wrote:The KFF can be avoided by weapons which ignore Cover
Most of which can't penetrate vehicle armor very well anyway.
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Post by: SweetLou
i just like the idea of a vehicle that is meltaproof
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Post by: Melissia
And that is exactly the problem I have with it.
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Post by: SweetLou
so there is one thing in the game melta spam doesent work on? there are other ways. or ignore it and kill everything else with those meltas
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Post by: Gwar!
Melissia wrote:And that is exactly the problem I have with it.
You have a problem with Wave Serpents too? 
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Post by: Araenion
Gwar! wrote:Melissia wrote:And that is exactly the problem I have with it.
You have a problem with Wave Serpents too?
I should hope not! If I'm paying a minimum of 100 points for a transport, it should be helluva tough to kill. AV 15 Monolith with the "Living Metal" special ability revamped to ignore bonuses on the vehicle damage table(not the AP roll) sounds good to me.
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Post by: SweetLou
id prefer it to stay as is, its tough as nails, as a cron should be
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Post by: Melissia
Gwar! wrote:Melissia wrote:And that is exactly the problem I have with it.
You have a problem with Wave Serpents too?
No, as wave serpents aren't AV14 all the way around.
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Post by: Brutii11
I haven't read the entire thread so apologies if this has already been said but why not make a monolith venerable? That would increase it's survivability by a fair way and at the same time not make it unbelieveably hard to destroy. (seriously, if we were talking about land raiders getting a 4+ invunerable people would be practically rabid, why does the other big AV 14 vechile get all the upgrades?)
I personally also thing that a monolith should get and ability that allows glancing hits to rebound into an enemy unit  , but that's just me.
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Post by: Kevin949
Melissia wrote:Gwar! wrote:Melissia wrote:And that is exactly the problem I have with it.
You have a problem with Wave Serpents too?
No, as wave serpents aren't AV14 all the way around.
Ya, but you can't get higher than str8 on them either (at least, the wave serpent I tried to destroy last night didn't allow higher than str 8)
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Post by: Melissia
Which is fine with me, as my Sisters don't have anything higher than strength eight anyway. My Orks don't have much higher than strength eight outside of dreads. My Guard have enough firepower to simply use pure numbers of hits to make it not matter. Etc.
Thing is, Strength 8 can still penetrate AV12.
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Post by: Zarynterk
AV14 doesn't scare me really, melta will make mince meat outta AV14; that or power fists. The invuln saves however make me a little worried.... means those 2-3 power fist attacks from my charging sgts mean that much more...
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Post by: Melissia
Zarynterk wrote:AV14 doesn't scare me really, melta will make mince meat outta AV14
Not if they're completely immune to any effects of such. And power fists won't help you against AV14 rear armor.
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Post by: Shake Zoola
I say keep the lith as is...Im a big fan of its current incarnation!
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Post by: Unholy_Martyr
Monolith really doesn't need any change at all...it's probably the toughest vehicle in the game and it should stay that way...If they made it AV 15 with an Invulnerable save...I think it would be just downright boring and a waste of paper for printing at that point...Oh, and I think AP 1 weapons should still get a bonus.
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Post by: Melissia
If AP1 weapons lost their bonus, there'd be no way for Sisters to destroy Monoliths at all even just by chance, or hell even damage them. Which would stupid beyond belief.
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Post by: kill dem stunties
16 people voted for a 2++ invul? jeez ....
Mabye if it was armor 10 all around with no living metal and 1-6 on the damage table all = destroyed ....
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Post by: Unholy_Martyr
Melissia
If AP1 weapons lost their bonus, there'd be no way for Sisters to destroy Monoliths at all even just by chance, or hell even damage them. Which would stupid beyond belief.
Which is exactly why I said it should keep the AP 1 bonus?
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Post by: Melissia
I know. I was objecting to the very notion that such a notion be considered a serious suggestion in any way.
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Post by: Shenra
Necrons haven't been an upper tier army for a long time in my opinion...so why not beef 'em up substantially...it will garner interest from new players, attract experienced players back to them, and help make up for them sucking for so long...phase out? Come on...
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Post by: Melissia
The Monolith is not what needs to be buffed. What needs to be buffed are the infantry.
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Post by: Unholy_Martyr
A neat thing would be to make any Necron base Toughness 5 with Feel No Pain...that would make their Infantry a little better, not to mention changing the weapons around...but that's just me.
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Post by: Zarynterk
Melissia wrote:The Monolith is not what needs to be buffed. What needs to be buffed are the infantry.
I have limited knowledge of the Cron codex, however from what I remember the warrior stats for crons are pretty good, no? Not to mention the fact that they come back to life???
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Post by: Commander Endova
I have a friend who doesn't post here, but had a really cool idea for Living Metal. It basically went:
In addition to what it already does, when the Monolith suffers a wrecked result, roll 2d6+2. If the result is 10 or above, the Monolith remains in play with the total result as it AV.
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Post by: Infantryman
Certainly interesting.
M.
29408
Post by: Melissia
Zarynterk wrote:Melissia wrote:The Monolith is not what needs to be buffed. What needs to be buffed are the infantry.
I have limited knowledge of the Cron codex, however from what I remember the warrior stats for crons are pretty good, no? Not to mention the fact that they come back to life???
Actually warriors is the reason why Crons suck so much. Once you destroy a certain fraction of them (and their infantry in general), they phase out and lose.
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Post by: Zarynterk
 Melissia wrote:Zarynterk wrote:Melissia wrote:The Monolith is not what needs to be buffed. What needs to be buffed are the infantry.
I have limited knowledge of the Cron codex, however from what I remember the warrior stats for crons are pretty good, no? Not to mention the fact that they come back to life???
Actually warriors is the reason why Crons suck so much. Once you destroy a certain fraction of them (and their infantry in general), they phase out and lose.
Ah no wonder Cron users want a new dex... my buddy plays Tau and has had to watch as three of our friends have all had new dexes come out for their armies...kinda feel bad for him, but he sucks it up and plays on.
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Post by: Mahtamori
Phase Out is perhaps the best and only viable way of destroying a Monolith for some armies. Having to bring both anti-tank and anti-vehicle to a blind fight is all fine and good, but having to specifically tailor your list to bring anti-Monolith weaponry is stupid. The mere fact that most anti-tank weaponry can hope for is to make the Monolith almost useless by glancing it so it can't use one of it's weapons and can't move...
No, the Monolith doesn't need a power buff, the army needs to be refurbished. The whole living metal thing it's got going must go without replacement if Phase Out is going.
Oh, and making the basic troop more powerful isn't exactly a good thing, either, the option of making them cheaper and with a bit more variety might be a better way to go. Not all armies need to be BA/SW, you know...
26767
Post by: Kevin949
Melissia wrote:Which is fine with me, as my Sisters don't have anything higher than strength eight anyway. My Orks don't have much higher than strength eight outside of dreads. My Guard have enough firepower to simply use pure numbers of hits to make it not matter. Etc.
Thing is, Strength 8 can still penetrate AV12.
Ya, and str 10 can still penetrate AV 14. You see, it's exactly the same math. If an AV 12 vehicle can never be counted as getting hit by str9+ AND ignores the additional D6 of certain weapons, it is absolutely no different than a monolith except for the fact that there is slightly more Str8+ weaponry than there is Str10.
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Post by: Forgotmytea
Jackmojo wrote:... the current living metal "nyah, nyah you don't get the rules you think you do" version.
That'd take away one of the few joys us Necron players have left! I do like the Living Metal rule, it's characterful and not too confusing. Maybe add on an invulnerable save as well, but I hope we don't see too many changes to the Monolith.
29408
Post by: Melissia
Kevin949 wrote:Melissia wrote:Which is fine with me, as my Sisters don't have anything higher than strength eight anyway. My Orks don't have much higher than strength eight outside of dreads. My Guard have enough firepower to simply use pure numbers of hits to make it not matter. Etc.7
Thing is, Strength 8 can still penetrate AV12.
Ya, and str 10 can still penetrate AV 14. You see, it's exactly the same math. If an AV 12 vehicle can never be counted as getting hit by str9+ AND ignores the additional D6 of certain weapons, it is absolutely no different than a monolith except for the fact that there is slightly more Str8+ weaponry than there is Str10.
"Slightl"y more?
My Sisters don't have any strength nine or ten weapons.
At all.
There is no "slightly" about it. S8 AP1 (sometimes melta) and S6 chainfist weapons are all we have to rely on for anti-tanks. Simply having invulnerability to Melta would be fine, but it's an invulnerability to ANYTHING with a 2d6 penetration. Even said s6 chainfists can't do anything to the vehicle, and Sisters already suck in close combat as it is. Making it more survivable would be stupid, and also stupid, when already many times you have to build armies specifically around destroying the vehicle, either that or you pretty much can't build an army around it.
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Post by: Darkvoidof40k
4++ and no other rules is fine in my opinion. Simple, effective and the Monolith still retains its annoyance potential.
Personally, I've always found that ignoring this, that and the other is a load of BS. Perhaps in third it fitted in, but in fifth edition, vehicles are getting INVULNERABLE saves. A 4++ is not overpowered, and fits in with the theme without making other armies' anti-tank weaponry any less potent.
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Post by: Formosa
since the monolith came out i always thought that it was very low on points, now i understand this may have been a balanceing factor, but i cant help still thinking with my 3rd ed head on, that it should be more expensive OR at least the same price as a land raider.
in current ed, i think it is the correct points.
now onto the OP, i want it to remain alomost the same, no invul save, what i do want is for it to be a teleport homer for any number of necrons teleporting in (not through the portal)
so another mono can teleport to it or a lord with a viel of darkness, flayed ones etc.
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Post by: Melissia
I would not agree to that buff unless it lost some other functionality.It's already just about the best vehicle in 40k (and the only reasons Necrons aren't entirely a joke army).
34439
Post by: Formosa
sorry i wasnt clear lol
as is the monolith is the correct points, with tits stats and ablilities, however if it got the teleport homer, 250pts at least
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Post by: SlaveToDorkness
Melissia wrote:
My Sisters don't have any strength nine or ten weapons.
At all.
The codex has access to S9+ weapons, whether you use them or not.
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Post by: Jackmojo
Another reason I'd like to see an invulnerable save on the Monolith how much cooler it would make them in Apocalypse.
Those damn phalanxes with their geometry of doom power would be radical then.
Jack
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Post by: Kevin949
Melissia wrote:Kevin949 wrote:Melissia wrote:Which is fine with me, as my Sisters don't have anything higher than strength eight anyway. My Orks don't have much higher than strength eight outside of dreads. My Guard have enough firepower to simply use pure numbers of hits to make it not matter. Etc.7
Thing is, Strength 8 can still penetrate AV12.
Ya, and str 10 can still penetrate AV 14. You see, it's exactly the same math. If an AV 12 vehicle can never be counted as getting hit by str9+ AND ignores the additional D6 of certain weapons, it is absolutely no different than a monolith except for the fact that there is slightly more Str8+ weaponry than there is Str10.
"Slightl"y more?
My Sisters don't have any strength nine or ten weapons.
At all.
There is no "slightly" about it. S8 AP1 (sometimes melta) and S6 chainfist weapons are all we have to rely on for anti-tanks. Simply having invulnerability to Melta would be fine, but it's an invulnerability to ANYTHING with a 2d6 penetration. Even said s6 chainfists can't do anything to the vehicle, and Sisters already suck in close combat as it is. Making it more survivable would be stupid, and also stupid, when already many times you have to build armies specifically around destroying the vehicle, either that or you pretty much can't build an army around it.
just because the army you play doesn't have any doesn't mean my statement isn't valid.
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Post by: asimo77
At least SOB have all those nice toys, the only S9 for crons are the monolith (and even then that is only 1 hit from the lith's blast), heavy destroyers, and the Nightbringer's ranged attack.
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Post by: Formosa
ok I went away and had a think about the Monolith, so here goes
Monolith pts:260
F S R BS
14 14 14 4
Special rules: Melta weapons only get 1D6 penetration
lance's never reduce its armour, ponderous (may always fire its weapons.. AWAYS!, looking at you RAW nuts lol) and move up to 6" a turn.
Teleport homer everything else remains the same
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Post by: Darkvoidof40k
Well, if we're going to post up our own personal views on how the profile should be, I'll just get the one off my fandex.
Darkvoidof40k wrote:Monolith
Statline: BS: 4 Front Armour: 14 Side Armour: 14 Rear Armour: 14
Points cost: 300
Unit Type: Tank, Skimmer
Number/unit: 1
Special Rules – Deep Strike,
Crewless: The Monolith has no crew. It is unaffected by crew stunned and crew shaken results on the vehicle damage chart.
Living Metal: The Monolith has a 4+ Invulnerable save against all glancing and penetrating hits – taken before rolls on the damage table.
Teleport: This rule gives three abilities that the controlling player may use once per turn, however no more than one of them can be used in a turn.
1)A single Necron infantry unit coming on from reserve may enter play from the Monoliths' portal, provided it was on the table at the start of the turn as if they had just disembarked.
2)At the beginning of your turn, you can pick one of your infantry units on the board and remove them from the table, then replace them as if they had just disembarked from the Monolith – treating the portal as an access point.
3)The Monolith may teleport itself – remove the model from the table and replace it anywhere atleast 18 inches away from its previous position, but no more than 36 inches away. It may not do anything else for the rest of the turn if it teleports itself!This rule may not be used if the Monoliths' Power Matrix has been disabled – see below for details.
Ponderous: The Monolith is slow and lumbering, and can only move up to 6” per turn. If it does move, it may still fire all of its weapons (unless it is teleporting itself – see above). If the Monolith suffers an immobilized result on the vehicle damage chart, then it will not crash and be destroyed, but sink to the ground and continue to fight from there.
Auto Targeting: When the Monolith's Gauss Destructor's fire, they each fire at the closest enemy unit that they can. This could result in the Monolith firing at separate units. The Monolith Power Matrix may fire at a separate target to the Gauss Destructor's, but it doesn't have to be the closest.
Wargear
4 Gauss Destructor's,
Monolith Power Matrix: The Monolith Power Matrix is a massive protruding crystal on the top of a Monolith that pulses with sickly green energy. It may be fired in the shooting phase with the following profile:
Monolith Power Matrix – Range: 48” Strength: 10 AP: 1 Ordnance 1, Large Blast, Gauss Weapon
It may not be destroyed by a Weapon Destroyed result on the damage table. It may only be destroyed if the Monolith suffers a Destroyed – Wrecked or Destroyed - Explodes! result. If the Monolith suffers a Destroyed – Explodes! result, then the cataclysmic energies of the Power Matrix are released. All models, within 6+D6 inches suffer a Strength 8 AP 1 hit. This overrides the normal rules for vehicles exploding, and the Monolith will never explode in any other way than described above. Vehicles are hit on their side armour.
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Post by: Formosa
lol fandex at its worst, i was fine with most of it untill
D6+6 " Str8 Ap 1 explosion, what possible downside is there to just teleporting infront of those meganobs etc.
also why the doubled range of the whip? i always liked the imagery of the short range Snap from the normal whip, kinda like the Red Alert Tesla coil, but less electric..y and more Thunder clap then the ground explodes upwards send vapourising bits everywhere (like fallout 1 static gun)
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Post by: Darkvoidof40k
Well, I've been considering bringing it back down to 24" as it is quite annoying in games to just have it sit back too far away to reach, being the immovable, unkillable firebase that it is. But then there's nothing long range in the 'dex.
But I won' continue this discussion any further. You have questions/suggestions/whatever about the rules from my 'dex, then there's a thread for it.
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Post by: Melissia
Kevin949 wrote:just because the army you play doesn't have any doesn't mean my statement isn't valid.
It odes, however, mean the vehicle is a piece of gakky game design.
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Post by: jp400
Unholy_Martyr wrote:A neat thing would be to make any Necron base Toughness 5 with Feel No Pain...that would make their Infantry a little better, not to mention changing the weapons around...but that's just me.
Only if they cost as much as Plague Marines Base.
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Post by: Melissia
Yeah, but Plague Marines dont' phase out.
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Post by: Kevin949
Melissia wrote:Kevin949 wrote:just because the army you play doesn't have any doesn't mean my statement isn't valid.
It odes, however, mean the vehicle is a piece of gakky game design.
Maybe, but until they give the crons more options on vehicles OR more options FOR the one vehicle they have, I'll be perfectly happy with a small redo of the rules for clarification and leaving the rest of the special rules in tact.
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Post by: asimo77
Immortals are pretty close to plague marines, but are more expensive and a bit worse in a few areas.
"It odes, however, mean the vehicle is a piece of gakky game design." D: At least let us have one good unit! (ok destroyers are pretty rad too)
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Post by: Formosa
and the C'tan.. and Lords.. and warsythes.. and Paria... couldnt finnish that one lol
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Post by: asimo77
C'tan and pariahs are nice, but they take up precious points that could be spent on things with the necron rule. Lords are ok I guess, nothing particularly astonishing about them though.
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Post by: Melissia
I never said the Necrons shouldn't have good units... rather, I said you should focus on buffing the infantry rather than buffing the already overpowered Monolith.
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Post by: asimo77
Oh I didn't mean to make it sound like that. It was more just random musing, and all together not so serious. Though I'm suprised you find the monolith OP, I think its one of the better designed units in the codex.
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Post by: Eumerin
asimo77 wrote:Oh I didn't mean to make it sound like that. It was more just random musing, and all together not so serious. Though I'm suprised you find the monolith OP, I think its one of the better designed units in the codex.
A good part of whether you think it's OP or not probably depends on the race(s) that you play. Eldar, for instance (with S8 Bright Lances that suddenly don't Lance) are likely to feel much more strongly about it than IG or Marines with their Lascannons.
>.>
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Post by: Praxiss
Ok. Bearignmind that all this argueing maybe the forum equivilant of p*****g against the wind....
Does anyoen actually have any info on when/if the Necron'dex wil be updated? I think that last i heard was Q3 of 2011.
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Post by: asimo77
Eumerin wrote:asimo77 wrote:Oh I didn't mean to make it sound like that. It was more just random musing, and all together not so serious. Though I'm suprised you find the monolith OP, I think its one of the better designed units in the codex.
A good part of whether you think it's OP or not probably depends on the race(s) that you play. Eldar, for instance (with S8 Bright Lances that suddenly don't Lance) are likely to feel much more strongly about it than IG or Marines with their Lascannons.
>.>
Perhaps, my main opponents are IG and Tau after all. But I know SM of most varieties and CSM can get S10 weaponry as well (might be others, not sure). Either way though, most people shouldn't bother fighting the monolith anyway, it's not too dangerous on it's own, and killing warriors is an easier winning strategy.
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Post by: Eumerin
asimo77 wrote:Perhaps, my main opponents are IG and Tau after all. But I know SM of most varieties and CSM can get S10 weaponry as well (might be others, not sure). Either way though, most people shouldn't bother fighting the monolith anyway, it's not too dangerous on it's own, and killing warriors is an easier winning strategy.
The primary anti-tank weapon for the Eldar is the Bright Lance, which relies on its Lance attribute to overcome its S8 attribute (since the Eldar are supposedly the masters of laser technology - at least according to the fluff in their codex). The alternative for many Eldar armies is the Distortion Cannon, which is a neat little toy that ignores the armor value of the target.
And of course the Monolith renders it useless.
Yes, it's no doubt true that players should be focusing on the infantry. But there are times that you can't afford to ignore the monolith.
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Post by: asimo77
Why doesn't the d-cannon work? (also wraithguard have the same gun more or less right?) Also there's wraithlords with S10 and fire prisms have S9 focussed, and I think 10 and AP1 when combined
Forgot Haywire nades.
I think that's all the eldar junk that can affect liths
34899
Post by: Eumerin
asimo77 wrote:Why doesn't the d-cannon work? (also wraithguard have the same gun more or less right?) Also there's wraithlords with S10 and fire prisms have S9 focussed, and I think 10 and AP1 when combined
Forgot Haywire nades.
I think that's all the eldar junk that can affect liths
It's been a while since I've seen a monolith on the table, but my understanding was that they ignored all of the unconventional "auto-pen on a 5+" style weapons. Though as I said, it's been a while so I could be misremembering the rules.
As for D-Cannons, Wraithguard have the exact same gun - except without the blast template. If I was mistaken on the D-Cannon, then obviously both support version and the Wraithguard version work. Haywire Grenades fit in the same category. I used the "primary anti-tank" phrase as my out on not mentioning the Fire Prism because that particular vehicle is forced to compete for the very valuable Heavy slots, whereas Bright Lances can turn up all over the place (including on dedicated transports).
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Post by: asimo77
I can't say I know too much about Eldar so if you're stuck with S8 lance, that could be a pain.
Also the "glances on a 2-4, pens on a 5-6" style weapons and the like should work on a lith. That also includes things with the gauss rule, eversor's gauntlet, and angonisers (the old ones at least, dunno what the new rules are)
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Post by: Grakmar
The problem with the Monolith currently: 90% of armies rely on Anti-Vehicle choices that don't work on a Monolith.
The solution to the Monolith currently: Phase Out
As long as Phase Out exists, the Monolith doesn't need to be changed. If phase out is being removed, then the Monolith needs a nerf. I like the removal of Living Metal and giving it AV15. That would mean melta can take it out, but not totally reliably. I'd also give it a rule so that lance weapons treat it like AV13, not 12.
Running some numbers: Str 8 melta penetrate AV15 42% of time (AV14 is currently 58%). That seems like a good upgrade without making melta worthless. The problem is the armies that rely on LASS for Anti-Vehicle...
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Post by: Darkvoidof40k
AV 15 is just braking boundaries. Sure, most of the game does that anyway, but for land vehicles, AV14 is as good as it gets. Structure points and invulnerable saves are the only way to make them tougher, without making them unfair and ridiculous.
AV14. 4++. 'nuff said.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Melissia wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:The KFF can be avoided by weapons which ignore Cover
Most of which can't penetrate vehicle armor very well anyway.
That;s true, though of course it is also ineffective against melee weapons, and most Ork vehicles have low armour.
On balance you are certainly better off with a 4++ save than a 4= cover save.
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