Now that the new DE codex is out in the world...does anyone have any goddip/guesses about the next codexes (codices?) comign out?

I have heard/read runours of Necrons, Inquisition/Grey Knights, Templars, Dark Angels and the all-singing, all-dancing Chaos Legions codex (which i fear is a lie).

Anyone got anything concrete? or even semi-concrete?

Grey Knights are up next I think.

Grey Knights are next
Sisters of Battle started shortly after the Grey Knights in regards to development...although nobody has stated a release
Necron/Tau sometime next year, heavy hints that Necrons drop around August


None of this is concrete though, just as reliable as rumor gets

That's annoying. Been waiting ages for the necron codex. I can't afford to by any 'crons until some new plastics come out.

Thanks for the quick responses btw.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Grey Knights are next
Sisters of Battle started shortly after the Grey Knights in regards to development...although nobody has stated a release
Necron/Tau sometime next year, heavy hints that Necrons drop around August

While SoB may have started development already, by the sound of Jes Goodwin's recent comments regarding the SoB models, I have my doubts that we'll see them in the near future. I think we'll be looking at Necrons after GKs.

Grey Knights

GW Design Team - "Now that we've just done one of our best Xenos releases of all time, what new and exciting projects shall we line up next?"
GW Management - "Wait a sec, it's been nearly 12 months since we've done a Space Marine release. Gah! We're in danger of losing our core 12 year old market. Get some new models out quick. Which ones? Er... have we done the blue guys recently? Yes? What about the red fellas? Only last year? Bother! Oh do the silver chaps then and make sure they look really cool so we can justify charging £35 for a box of five."

Flashman wrote:
GW Design Team - "Now that we've just done one of our best Xenos releases of all time, what new and exciting projects shall we line up next?"
GW Management - "Wait a sec, it's been nearly 12 months since we've done a Space Marine release. Gah! We're in danger of losing our core 12 year old market. Get some new models out quick. Which ones? Er... have we done the blue guys recently? Yes? What about the red fellas? Only last year? Bother! Oh do the silver chaps then and make sure they look really cool so we can justify charging £35 for a box of five."

Lol sounds about right.

Flashman wrote:Grey Knights

GW Design Team - "Now that we've just done one of our best Xenos releases of all time, what new and exciting projects shall we line up next?"
GW Management - "Wait a sec, it's been nearly 12 months since we've done a Space Marine release. Gah! We're in danger of losing our core 12 year old market. Get some new models out quick. Which ones? Er... have we done the blue guys recently? Yes? What about the red fellas? Only last year? Bother! Oh do the silver chaps then and make sure they look really cool so we can justify charging £35 for a box of five."

Meh,I can't quibble too much about order of releases for 5th. BA and SW that closely together seemed like a lot of SM love,but one was running off a WD army list and the other was running off an add on 'dex from 3rd,so it's hard to argue that they weren't due. GK are also running off a 3rd edition 'dex,so it's hard to say they don't deserve a codex now,or at least don't deserve one more than Xenos that got new dex's in 4th like Eldar and Tau. I'd like to see GW get everybody who's still running a 3rd ed codex caught up before working on the armies that were updated in 4th.

As for DE being the best Xenos release of all time,we'll have to see how their sales go and how many players actually wind up sticking with the army. From what I've read of the codex so far,they look like they'll wind up the same as they did the last time they were released. A lot of players will jump on the bandwagon thinking that they look cool. However,most won't have the skills to play the army properly and will get tired of getting run off the table game after game,then sell their DE off and start other armies,leaving a few die hard fans and tourney players complaining about their long wait for another 'dex.

I've heard from my friend, who manages one of my local clubs who has alot of good friends up in Games Workshop that the Necron codex has been pretty much finished and is aiming at a release early 2011. Which would coincide with the Fall of Damnos novel release as well as much of the rumours that have been floating around since 2008.

Hoping for a new chaos space marine codex. Although I'm sure I'll end up waiting until at least 2012. FUUUUUUUUUU

But yeah, these guys got it right. I'm sure you don't give a crap about fantasy releases, so I'm glad no one's posted any

Well, they got 3 new dexes out this year so if I had to guess, 2011 will see the completion of the armies that are currently using 3rd ed (Crons, Sisters, Daemonhunters).

GW seems to usually release between 2 and 3 dexs a year (3 in 2010, 2 in 09, 3 in 08, etc) and they are supposedly playing catch up here are my guesses for release.

2011
Daemon Hunters- early
Necrons- middle to late
Sisters late 2011 to early 2012

2012-
Chaos Marines
Dark Angels or Black Templars- mid to late

2013
Tau
Dark Angels or Black Templars

2014
Daemons
Orks

And here is your bucket o salt. Just guesswork based on release dates and how often GW puts the dex's out. Either way, everyone should be caught up by late 2013 to mid 2014 depending on how productive they are.

The most likely order is GK, Necrons, SoB, Tau or GK, SoB, Necrons, Tau. There have been no rumours at all of Chaos, DA or BT being redone to date.

SoB are just starting to be worked on, so try GK, Tau, Necrons, SoB.

Tau, on the whole, don't need too much besides some tweaking and some resin/metal kits scanned over to plastic.

OK, i should be able to ask for new necrons next christmas. Works for me.

I just bought a feckload of crons from a friend of mine so here's hoping a new necron Dex comes out soon :p

We'll see a new Templar Codex before we see a Sisters book.

I'd say:

GK's
Necrons
Templars/Tau
Tau/Templars
Chaos
Sisters
Eldar/Dark Angels
Dark Angels/Eldar

burning_phoneix wrote:I just bought a feckload of crons from a friend of mine so here's hoping a new necron Dex comes out soon :p

Im fairly sure someone in another thread had it on good/decent word that necrons would be aprox May 2011. I hope its pretty close to that, or sooner. Although Im enjoying building Orks...my necron Lord and squad of warriors stare at me tirelessly, wanting some more buddies.

AlexHolker wrote:The most likely order is GK, Necrons, SoB, Tau or GK, SoB, Necrons, Tau. There have been no rumours at all of Chaos, DA or BT being redone to date.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I saw someone say some time ago that GW was catching everyone up to 5th before moving on?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I saw someone say some time ago that GW was catching everyone up to 5th before moving on?

I'm not sure why they would do that or what would be accomplished by it. The last couple Codex books to be revised in such a schedule would be out of date weeks or months after their release when the 6th Edition Rule Book gets released. For books that have to wait more than a year to be revised at this point it would be better for the customers of those books to have GW wait to make them fit specifically with 6th Edition.

BrassScorpion wrote: I'm not sure why they would do that or what would be accomplished by it. The last couple Codex books to be revised in such a schedule would be out of date weeks or months after their release when the 6th Edition Rule Book gets released. For books that have to wait more than a year to be revised at this point it would be better for the customers of those books to have GW wait to make them fit specifically with 6th Edition.

Thats sort of the mentality that brings us to codex lagging behind an edition or two. Daemons while published during 4th edition was published with 5th edition in mind so its not impossible to do.

I have a half decent 'Cron army but don't want to add to it until nice new plastics come out (i need Immortals).

Thats sort of the mentality that brings us to codex lagging behind an edition or two

I seriously doubt if my observation, which is largely true, is the reason for what some people perceive as a slow production schedule from GW. It's not like what we're saying here is what the people who actually work on the stuff are necessarily saying. GW determines their schedule based on their own internal reasoning. But it is the reason the Dark Angels Codex and Chaos Marine Codex are not nearly as exciting as every Codex released soon after them.

But if I was in charge of the production schedule, absolutely I would hold up some revisions rather than let them go out the door sooner, but with a shorter shelf life. As a player and collector I would much rather have waited an extra year or two for the Chaos Codex or Dark Angels Codex if I would have gotten a much better book for the wait. As it is, the Dark Angels Codex was obsolete in less than two years after its release. What was the point of pushing that one out the door sooner rather than later? It was only released as it was to fill a necessary spot on the new release schedule to generate cash flow at the time. There was no consideration given to how that product would fare in the long-term.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Grey Knights are next
Sisters of Battle started shortly after the Grey Knights in regards to development...although nobody has stated a release
Necron/Tau sometime next year, heavy hints that Necrons drop around August


None of this is concrete though, just as reliable as rumor gets

as i saw another person posted SOB are in the works(and have been for awhile now) They have been having problems with the cloth. Necrons/Tau should be getting codex in 2011(not sure just a guess) Eldar, Chaos and Orks still need new ones with Eldar needing it more. DA might still see some love(I hope) But I don't think Sisters will be right after GK. They will either be late 2011 or released with GK(yes I know stone me cause i said the dreaded GK+SOB dex)

Also for H.B.M.C there is no way Chaos will be that soon they are the last 4th edition dex and/or first 5th dex. Orks would be before them(which you totally left out. I am going to GUESS more non marines in 2011.

Kanluwen wrote:SoB are just starting to be worked on, so try GK, Tau, Necrons, SoB.

Tau, on the whole, don't need too much besides some tweaking and some resin/metal kits scanned over to plastic.

I would really disagree with this, half our Codex is useless on most account, we only really have 1 viable actual army list (mech) and then there's the gimmick of "ninja tau". Tau need to be brought up to snuff just as badly (though maybe not quite as badly as Necrons). GK? Are you kidding me? Yet ANOTHER Space Marine codex... you'd think they could at least release the main armies updates first instead of some side army that is yet again in power armor.

Militarized wrote:
I would really disagree with this, half our Codex is useless on most account, we only really have 1 viable actual army list (mech) and then there's the gimmick of "ninja tau". Tau need to be brought up to snuff just as badly (though maybe not quite as badly as Necrons). GK? Are you kidding me? Yet ANOTHER Space Marine codex... you'd think they could at least release the main armies updates first instead of some side army that is yet again in power armor.

That's your opinion. The Grey Knight player woudl probably disagree. Interestingly enough I have only met 2 Tau players in person, 4 WH players, and only 1 Dark Eldar. I guess its all a matter of your location and perspective. Tau could use an upgrade definitely, but I would say Grey Knights (2003), Necrons (2002), and Sisters (2004) have been waiting a good deal longer than Tau players (2006) and some (Necrons in particular (and Sisters as well IMO)) are in great need of a redo first.

Really surprised the mods are letting a question thread live in news and rumours, as opposed to discussions...

That being said, everything on the posts already on this forum and Warseer say GK next, then Necrons or Tau.

There's enough 'news and rumor' in it at this point to justify its place, but you're right in that it is a bit on the edge.

And don't you go and consider this a precedent - oh no you don't!!!

MajorTom11 wrote:Really surprised the mods are letting a question thread live in news and rumours, as opposed to discussions...

That being said, everything on the posts already on this forum and Warseer say GK next, then Necrons or Tau.

yes it started as a question and while not rumors or news. But some on Warseer are normally 90% wrong and I left warseer cause of that one person. The debate over necrons or tau first is hard to say both armies at their release were very popular. But I will say with the success of Dark Eldar I am willing to bet GW wont be afraid to make larger releases in the future. At least I hope. But also I am leaning towards Necrons my "source" has said Necrons are coming with in a year(said that back in August) But also said other things about imperial forces as well.

It's the precedent thing, every once in a while these threads go really well... But it seems as soon as one comes up 5 more show up like weeds soon after. Bah I know its bitchy but whatever, it just pisses me off when the relevant answers are 2 threads under it lol

MajorTom11 wrote:It's the precedent thing, every once in a while these threads go really well... But it seems as soon as one comes up 5 more show up like weeds soon after. Bah I know its bitchy but whatever, it just pisses me off when the relevant answers are 2 threads under it lol

Posting a question requires less skill and time than searching for an answer yourself

Anyone know when the new Dark Eldar are being released?

EDIT - Ok, that doesn't look funny without Kroothawk's post immediately above it.

Kroothawk wrote:

MajorTom11 wrote:It's the precedent thing, every once in a while these threads go really well... But it seems as soon as one comes up 5 more show up like weeds soon after. Bah I know its bitchy but whatever, it just pisses me off when the relevant answers are 2 threads under it lol

Posting a question requires less skill and time than searching for an answer yourself

Lol yup. It just always seems silly to me when someone goes 'any news on Necrons??' as if the people on this board wouldnt be having a nerd frenzy over it on the first page top post, myself included lol. It seems pretty obvious that if there was news in the hands of a member, and they were willing to post it, it would be posted. Kinda like calling your wife while you guys are trying to have a baby and asking if there is any news on being pregnant or not. Believe me, you'd be the first to know lol!

I don't have a problem with question threads. And, in fact, having a collated rumour thread to avoid constant new ones popping up would be a good thing.

It's the threads that are asking questions that don't put question marks in their titles that drive people batty.

Militarized wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:SoB are just starting to be worked on, so try GK, Tau, Necrons, SoB.

Tau, on the whole, don't need too much besides some tweaking and some resin/metal kits scanned over to plastic.

I would really disagree with this, half our Codex is useless on most account, we only really have 1 viable actual army list (mech) and then there's the gimmick of "ninja tau". Tau need to be brought up to snuff just as badly (though maybe not quite as badly as Necrons). GK? Are you kidding me? Yet ANOTHER Space Marine codex... you'd think they could at least release the main armies updates first instead of some side army that is yet again in power armor.

Tau have 1 viable army list? Congrats. You have one more viable army list than DH/GK players,at least in a competitive environment. Tau also still hold up well in a casual environment. DH/GK and 'crons struggle even in casual play. Every DH/GK and 'cron player I know has their army in mothballs and are playing with other armies while waiting on a new book. WH/SoB have one competitive list as well(mech Sisters),and have been waiting longer than Tau. Plus,DH/GK and WH/SoB don't even have plastic troops,yet. It's a well known fact that every army out there that hasn't been redone for 5th is groaning for a new codex because of power creep except Eldar,so only having one viable build isn't a reason for one army to be redone over any other.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I don't have a problem with question threads. And, in fact, having a collated rumour thread to avoid constant new ones popping up would be a good thing.

It's the threads that are asking questions that don't put question marks in their titles that drive people batty.

+1 to the collated rumour thread, I really miss Brimstone over on Warseer, that guy was amazing for that... In fact, I would nominate Kroothawk to take charge of one here if he was willing. He is a prolific poster of news, seems pretty unbiased and is generally an all round awesome board member IMHO.

Seconded!

What say you Kroothawk??? Whilst thou become Master of Rumours and the Keeper of Awesomess of Clan Dakka?

It would really impress the ladies dude!

Lol seriously though, it would be great if someone took charge of this, not my place of course to do anything, but if Alphy agrees I'm sure it could actually be possible!

MajorTom11 wrote:What say you Kroothawk??? Whilst thou become Master of Rumours and the Keeper of Awesomess of Clan Dakka?

It would really impress the ladies dude!

Lol seriously though, it would be great if someone took charge of this, not my place of course to do anything, but if Alphy agrees I'm sure it could actually be possible!

dont do it its a trap!!! Ladies will laugh at you.

MajorTom11 wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I don't have a problem with question threads. And, in fact, having a collated rumour thread to avoid constant new ones popping up would be a good thing.

It's the threads that are asking questions that don't put question marks in their titles that drive people batty.

+1 to the collated rumour thread, I really miss Brimstone over on Warseer, that guy was amazing for that... In fact, I would nominate Kroothawk to take charge of one here if he was willing. He is a prolific poster of news, seems pretty unbiased and is generally an all round awesome board member IMHO.

I don't want to be a Negative Nick here, but...

Brimstone was generally "in the loop" with the Studio Staff and seemed to have alot of info from sources who PMed it to him privately. It's why his rumor threads always had a bit more...weight and a feeling of trustworthiness for the information contained within to them(I think, personally, that's the best way to describe it at least). He wasn't just copy/pasting rumors from anywhere and everywhere.

I say this because as much as I like Kroothawk, most of what he does is simply copy/pasting from other sources(no matter who posts it) and he has no real way to separate the wheat from the chaff that the rest of us don't have access to. His threads just don't "feel" that trustworthy(no offense to you Kroot!), they're not built up from a foundation of accurate rumors like Brimstone's.

Ya well Brimstone was Brimstone, he can't be replaced. But Kroothawk keeps on top of things and posts stuff most people wouldn't see otherwise, that in and of itself is a positive contribution. I know what you mean that he doesn't have an inside track like Brim did, but it doesn't mean he isn't one of the most active members in this particular section and wouldn't be a fine person to put together a stickied 'big news' type thread of stuff we do know.

Don't forget, some of us may look at places like tabletop gaming news and Warseer etc, but most don't, as this whole conversation was started by the plethora of 'any news on codex x?' threads that pop up in here weekly. For people who obviously don't look at this stuff as often as we do, a collated sticky would obviously be beneficial.

Kanluwen wrote:Brimstone was generally "in the loop" with the Studio Staff and seemed to have alot of info from sources who PMed it to him privately. It's why his rumor threads always had a bit more...weight and a feeling of trustworthiness for the information contained within to them(I think, personally, that's the best way to describe it at least). He wasn't just copy/pasting rumors from anywhere and everywhere.

I say this because as much as I like Kroothawk, most of what he does is simply copy/pasting from other sources(no matter who posts it) and he has no real way to separate the wheat from the chaff that the rest of us don't have access to. His threads just don't "feel" that trustworthy(no offense to you Kroot!), they're not built up from a foundation of accurate rumors like Brimstone's.

None of this makes having a collated rumour thread a bad idea.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Brimstone was generally "in the loop" with the Studio Staff and seemed to have alot of info from sources who PMed it to him privately. It's why his rumor threads always had a bit more...weight and a feeling of trustworthiness for the information contained within to them(I think, personally, that's the best way to describe it at least). He wasn't just copy/pasting rumors from anywhere and everywhere.

I say this because as much as I like Kroothawk, most of what he does is simply copy/pasting from other sources(no matter who posts it) and he has no real way to separate the wheat from the chaff that the rest of us don't have access to. His threads just don't "feel" that trustworthy(no offense to you Kroot!), they're not built up from a foundation of accurate rumors like Brimstone's.

None of this makes having a collated rumour thread a bad idea.

True enough. But if it were done, it'd be nice to have it be done in such a way that it's not "just" copy/pasting whatever's posted out there(although unless we have some of studio insider here on Dakka that part is inevitable), no matter the absurdity or the potential unreliablity of the source .

That was the point I was trying to make, that there needs to be some form of fact-checking and control put in place--and it's as I said nothing personal against Kroothawk or whoever ends up doing it.

MajorTom11 wrote:
Don't forget, some of us may look at places like tabletop gaming news and Warseer etc, but most don't, as this whole conversation was started by the plethora of 'any news on codex x?' threads that pop up in here weekly. For people who obviously don't look at this stuff as often as we do, a collated sticky would obviously be beneficial.

Places like TGN and Warseer have the same problem. It doesn't matter if there's a collated sticky or not, people are lazy and they'll post a question thread in lieu of reading through a stickied thread.

The only way to fix that problem is, frankly, to crack down harder on offenders.

So far the releases have gone:

Marines - Ultra
Non-Marines - Guard
Marines - Wolves
Non-Marines - Tyranids
Marines - Blood/Cheese
Non-Marines - Dark Eldar

I'd expect them to carry on the Marines/Non-Marines pattern for a while at least, so Necrons after GK would be about right. The question in my mind is what SOB will be classed as, Marines or Non-Marines?

Are they marines?

I didn't mean to mess things up by posting a question thread. I put it in here thinking that most of the answers woudl be based in either News or Rumours. I did look around the first few pages first to see f anyone had posted anythgin abotu new codexes recentl but couldn see anything, hence the new thread.

If it is getting out of hand then by all mean delete the thread.

My Tau have been mothballed, but not because of the rules. To be honest, I haven't even played them with their last codex. I'm just uninspired by the models.

As far as I'm concerned, GW could deign not to release a 5th Ed. Tau codex at all and I'd be a happy camper as long as decent-looking Crisis Suits and a couple of other interesting kits came out. The models were fine for when they came out in 3rd edition but compared to the stellar design work on the Dark Eldar and the very good design work of the recent 'nids, they just loose something.

Though if GW's trend of slipping brand new big stuff with no existing models into the Codex continues, I would love to see what they have in mind for the Tau.

Kanluwen wrote:True enough. But if it were done, it'd be nice to have it be done in such a way that it's not "just" copy/pasting whatever's posted out there(although unless we have some of studio insider here on Dakka that part is inevitable), no matter the absurdity or the potential unreliablity of the source .

That was the point I was trying to make, that there needs to be some form of fact-checking and control put in place--and it's as I said nothing personal against Kroothawk or whoever ends up doing it.

I don't think Kroothawk would copypasta anything he found.

MajorTom11 wrote:+1 to the collated rumour thread, I really miss Brimstone over on Warseer, that guy was amazing for that... In fact, I would nominate Kroothawk to take charge of one here if he was willing.

Well, generally I would be willing to do that, even if I don't exactly know what you expect. One post or one thread to summarize all GW rumours will be a bit unpractical. Should it only be on the Codex release schedule (which is always very speculative nowadays) or a complete rumour roundup? If it were a closed sticky, there would be technical things to solve. What should be the scope and length. I made the DE rumour summary but stopped when people demanded and got complete statlines, because the line between a justified curiosity and unfairness against GW was passed. Maybe, if mods support the idea, we should discuss this via PM.

Kanluwen wrote:I don't want to be a Negative Nick here, but...
Brimstone was generally "in the loop" with the Studio Staff and seemed to have alot of info from sources who PMed it to him privately. It's why his rumor threads always had a bit more...weight and a feeling of trustworthiness for the information contained within to them(I think, personally, that's the best way to describe it at least). He wasn't just copy/pasting rumors from anywhere and everywhere.

Still angry that I predicted your "sources" to be wrong about the Dark Eldar battleforce this year?

1.) Yes, I have no direct links to the studio, but then again I am not bound by a contract to keep shut like almost all people "in the loop". I read rumours and report them if I think they are worth it. Rumours are rarely 100% accurate, some sources are more trustworthy than others. Some are necessarily more speculative because of the long time scale involved, but they usually get more accurate given time. And a rumour summary is not a fact summary after all, you must always accept the inherent uncertainty. But the uncertainty can be handled if you state the source, evaluate and state the grade of uncertainty and update the summary when rumours get more accurate. And in contrast to BoLS I state my sources

2.) Brimstone rarely posted rumours, and his rumour roundup consisted of copy/pasted pics with no text. And on behalf of his beloved Tyranids, he erred so much that he banned me for posting a mostly correct rumour summary, because he just couldn't believe Phil Kelly's confirmation that there will be "many new species, some dwarfing the Carnifex" and closed all Tyranid rumour threads for being too speculative and not Warseer-worthy. Well, now we have Mawlocs, Tervigons, Tyrannofexes and Hydras. And even after his death, Warseer is still overmoderated with e.g. the flyer rumour thread not tolerated in the rumour forum and the atmosphere generally unfriendly to rumour posters. So I wouldn't recommend Warseer as the shining example, even when they still have more active rumour sources than Dakka.

But I leave it to the mods if they want some rumour roundup in any form, done by anyone or not.

Kroothawk wrote:Still angry that I predicted your "sources" to be wrong about the Dark Eldar battleforce this year?

What sources? I've told you time and time again that was my prediction, based simply upon the fact that it makes sense that we'll see one around Christmas time. Dark Eldar are, for lack of a better term, this year's hot ticket item for GW. There's a noticeable lack of releases post-November 20th from what I'm seeing. Make of that what you will.

Although, I guess depending on what the second wave of plastics will be made up of it's possible we'll see a Battleforce there, maybe even more than one(Wych Cult, Kabalite, Haemonculi all seem like something that could theoretically get individualized battleforces if GW wants to go all in on this. Is it likely? No. But it's possible).

Praxiss wrote:I have a half decent 'Cron army but don't want to add to it until nice new plastics come out (i need Immortals).

I started mine...Lord and a squad of warriors...but decided to put it on hold pending the plastics that are bound to accompany the new codex. Id be pissed of I dropped $75 on a squad of metal Immortals juist to have them release a $45 box set of plastics.

Needless to say, Im hoping they are next after GK, and sooner the better.

Until then Im working on some Orks and a SM army for my son.

Kroothawk said yes!




*looks around, hopes mods will show up and take him up on it!*


Kan, copying and pasting rumors is still posting rumors. I don't know of any GW insider certifications programs. Unless you have someone 'in the know' to nominate instead of my man Kroot, it doesn't really add anything to debate his qualifications. Be part of the solution brotha! I think he does a really good job with what's available to him, he puts in the work to find it and share it with us, he is knowledgeable enough about the games, previous release practices and current ranges to make logical (but not infallible) calls on stuff that is seemingly obvious bunk. I can honestly say a big part of my interest in this particular forum page is due to his frequent postings of new release articles from companies I would never have heard of otherwise. To me, he adds a lot. If he is willing to put in the work to add a bit more and make this page even more interesting and hopefully, clear, then I for one am all for it. He's not Jes Goodwyn in disguise, but he is still pretty awesome to Dakka.

I dunno, if he keeps up with my prediction of a Dark Eldar battleforce released this year implying I have "sources" I might have to say no!

What I'm really saying, I guess, is we don't need one person to do this. A collated rumors thread doesn't need one poster, not when it's just going to be copying rumors from elsewhere.

We just need a set of guidelines for posting rumors in there.

MajorTom11 wrote:Kinda like calling your wife while you guys are trying to have a baby and asking if there is any news on being pregnant or not. Believe me, you'd be the first to know lol!

Or the deliveryman would.... just saying.

+1 for the Hawk.

@Kanluwen, I see your point, but I still like the idea of Kroot being our rumor wrangler. With time, perhaps those people in the loop will reach out to Kroot the way they did with Brimstone (RIP).

I also understand that questions will still be posted in News/ Rumors and many of those will be missing question marks. Nothing we can do but point and laugh at those posters.

I just don't get the point of having one designated "rumor wrangler".

I think the thought process is that you can have one person doing it to avoid spamming the board with the same stuff. Nothing wrong with a town crier to let us know what's happening on the bazillion other boards we don't visit.

Kanluwen wrote:I just don't get the point of having one designated "rumor wrangler".

I'm not sure we only need one, but I think Kroot has a pretty good reputation for credibility. More importantly, he makes it clear what's speculation, what's tenuous, etc. Something that by your own admission you seem to struggle with conveying. It's very easy to read your posts as statements of fact when they're opinion, speculation as rumor, etc.

Polonius wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I just don't get the point of having one designated "rumor wrangler".

I'm not sure we only need one, but I think Kroot has a pretty good reputation for credibility. More importantly, he makes it clear what's speculation, what's tenuous, etc. Something that by your own admission you seem to struggle with conveying. It's very easy to read your posts as statements of fact when they're opinion, speculation as rumor, etc.

Fair enough, but I am totally not saying I should be doing it. I can't stand reading other boards for the most part.

I would put my chips on the Necrons codex....they need one!

I don't mean that Kroot be the only one allowed to bring rumors to the board. Afterall, anyone can post a rumor. It sure would be nice to have a round of some sort so I don't have to wade through page after page of wishlisting, bullshitting, whining, thats cool, that's not cool, that's fluffy, that's not fluffy, etc. comments.

As an example, I actively followed the DE rumors and am very interested in anything I can get on GK. What I'd like to see is a consolidated and up to date list of rumors, which Kroot has demonstrated he can do. Then I don't have to search through 20+ pages to find the latest post with actual rumors.

If Kanluwen posts the latest FW book/ model rumors, the discussion could take place in the thread while the rumor content is added to the 40K rumor post. Hope that makes sense.

Exactly - we're not talking about limiting one person to posting rumors, just have one user ride shotgun on them, and managing a "current rumors" thread, or something similar.

Maybe...

I would be nice to be able to go to one thread and find information on rumors and speculation.

Many threads just end up being personal arguments between two or three individual posters on esoteric points completely irrelevant to the original topic of the thread.

I can get through a lot of that through liberal use of the "Ignore" feature, but I don't think that should be necessary.

How old are the Dark Angels and Black Templar dexs ? I have a feeling they are not as old as the Tau, SOB/GK , and Necrons also that they just won't remake them and if they do it will be so far down the line none of us will even care anymore.. Also Chaos was mentioned i REALLY doubt this the new books isn't everything the previous dex was but i don't think this current one is going anywhere.


On a lighter note i really want my SOB new codex please show mercy Games Workshop

I do wonder if the release of the Tomb Stalker was some sort of test of interest for GW with regards to Necrons.

I play Necrons as my main army and they can still hold their own against anyone I have taken on, but it is like trying to steer an aging creaking ship through a rather nasty tropical storm. The sheer points cost of virtually every unit in the codex is outragous when compared with almost any other army. Outnumbered 2-1 by SM's anyone?

Anyway back on topic. If the DE sell well, and the Tomb Stalker has also shown good sales, I can definatley see the Crons getting a codex after the GK's in January. A few tweaks and Crons would be kings of 40k again and perhaps even end the mech dictatorship we live under at the moment, or at least give me the opportunity to join in with it

You're forgetting the massive lead time required to put out a codex. It needs to be written months before release, which means that the models need to done and photographed (or at least available in some form) even prior. Sculpting, playtesting, seting up the molds, etc. all add up to what I've heard is a 12-18 month lead time. Which means if Necrons are going to come out next summer, they've been working on them for almost a year already.

I have heard stories that some codices are delayed, or shelved, so maybe it's done and they'r ejust trying to pcik the best time to release it...

Well, most of the models are still looking good (Warriors, Wraiths, Destroyers, Monolith). A few new plastics (Immortals, Pariahs, Lord kit, Heavy Destroyers) would be welcome, but its mostly the codex that is hurting the Crons. No need for a massive DE total overhaul, more like a Space Marines codex release really. You could probably reasonably expect to sell a codex to most people who bought a Stalker so it comes back to my first post. I am pretty sure they must be sat on done on the shelf or nearing completion, their fates intwined with the DE's sales...

Kanluwen wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Still angry that I predicted your "sources" to be wrong about the Dark Eldar battleforce this year?

What sources? I've told you time and time again that was my prediction, based simply upon the fact that it makes sense that we'll see one around Christmas time.

Kanluwen wrote:

Kroothawk wrote: Most people in the know are not aware of any battle force release in the near future, certainly not this year.

Then they're full of crap. Everything I've heard points towards a battleforce release for the first wave, in November/December.

Calling Harry and Frgt/10 full of crap because of "everything you've heard" sounds like having other rumour sources, not idle speculation.

Kanluwen wrote:I just don't get the point of having one designated "rumor wrangler".

The point can't be to have just one thread with all rumours copypasted to it. The only useful thing might be to have one or several threads summarizing (with evaluation of trustworthyness) current GW rumours (which is hard work, not a copypaste job). And this summary can only be done by a single author in a locked thread with no discussion (requiring a special access to that thread/subforum). Don't expect too much tough, as e.g. release schedule speculation is something even the best rumour sources try to avoid and fail at once in a while. There are no rumours about December releases, Grey Knights were expected for 2nd half 2010, then January 2011 for a long time. One good source was very convinced of a Khemri release in November, there were several good rumours for a Necron release end of 2009 until Harry shot this rumour down. GW tries to keep all releases secret until the day of preorder and has fired many leaks.

So the main rumour mongering must be made in individual threads, a sticky can at best summarize some stuff and link to the respective thread. And this can only work for GW. I would like to see single new-release threads for all major non-GW companies here, like we have for Chapterhouse, Maxmini, Scibor or Micro Art (or even BL), but for Privateer Press, we still have one thread per miniature. If for major GW releases we have a thread with a summary in the first post, this summary should be done by someone with experience and enthusiasm for the respective release, not by always the same person.

I am still not sure how such rumour stickies should look like and what should be included, but if we find a usefull concept and the mods approve, I would be willing to put some work and effort into it.

MajorTom11 wrote:It would really impress the ladies dude!

BTW can Lunahound confirm this?

Ick, she's under age.

Kroot, you are the man. Absolutely right on all points. A thread or section of threads, locked to only picks and summarized rumors, not discussions thereoff, will be massively helpful if only to help people get to the good stuff instead of making a 2.5 hour commitment to wade through 60 pages of crap to get to the point.

Frankly, everyone here should be extremely grateful you are willing to put in a not inconsiderable amount of time and work for our benefit out of the kindness of your heart and nothing else. I think it's great, and support you and Alphy 100% as the right people to take it on.

Cheers mate!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
p.s i can ask. BrookM, Ilfana and Mistress of mini's are the only other ladies on the boards as far as I know, so we could ask them too if Luna is too young!

I'm pretty sure it will impress THOSE ladies at the very least though! lol

Kroothawk wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Still angry that I predicted your "sources" to be wrong about the Dark Eldar battleforce this year?

What sources? I've told you time and time again that was my prediction, based simply upon the fact that it makes sense that we'll see one around Christmas time.

Kanluwen wrote:

Kroothawk wrote: Most people in the know are not aware of any battle force release in the near future, certainly not this year.

Then they're full of crap. Everything I've heard points towards a battleforce release for the first wave, in November/December.

Calling Harry and Frgt/10 full of crap because of "everything you've heard" sounds like having other rumour sources, not idle speculation.

Then let's clear this up now.
"Everything I've heard" was a reference to "Everything I've heard from GW staff who I came into contact with during my time working at a FLGS managing the inventory, and especially in regards to how GW normally managed their releases and the timing of battleforces/battalions being added to the inventory order forms".
Dark Eldar could, very likely, be an aberration in the fact that the entire line-up is being redone and they're going to milk the individual boxed set sales as much as they can before releasing a battleforce.

Kroothawk wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I just don't get the point of having one designated "rumor wrangler".

The point can't be to have just one thread with all rumours copypasted to it.

We are definitely in agreement there.

Kroothawk wrote:The only useful thing might be to have one or several threads summarizing (with evaluation of trustworthyness) current GW rumours (which is hard work, not a copypaste job). And this summary can only be done by a single author in a locked thread with no discussion (requiring a special access to that thread/subforum).

I'm in agreement there too. I wouldn't restrict it to a single poster though. Just make it so that you're required to, for all intents and purposes, write up a lengthy post including the site where you got the rumor from, that site's poster who put up the rumor, etc.
Give the author the ability to remove posts or maybe even the ability to edit others' posts as more information crops up.

Kroothawk wrote:Don't expect too much though, as e.g. release schedule speculation is something even the best rumour sources try to avoid and fail at once in a while. There are no rumours about December releases, Grey Knights were expected for 2nd half 2010, then January 2011 for a long time. One good source was very convinced of a Khemri release in November, there were several good rumours for a Necron release end of 2009 until Harry shot this rumour down. GW tries to keep all releases secret until the day of preorder and has fired many leaks.
So the main rumour mongering must be made in individual threads, a sticky can at best summarize some stuff and link to the respective thread. And this can only work for GW. I would like to see single new-release threads for all major non-GW companies here, like we have for Chapterhouse, Maxmini, Scibor or Micro Art (or even BL), but for Privateer Press, we still have one thread per miniature. If for major GW releases we have a thread with a summary in the first post, this summary should be done by someone with experience and enthusiasm for the respective release, not by always the same person.

In agreement again.

Kroothawk wrote:
I am still not sure how such rumour stickies should look like and what should be included, but if we find a useful concept and the mods approve, I would be willing to put some work and effort into it.

The rumour stickies and how they'd be set up is a tricky one, isn't it?

One person or not isn't up to you, or even a particular point dude. We all seem to agree Kroot should be part of it in some way major to minor, and anything else is a debate derailing the positive steps made in this post.

Let's focus on getting something done here, and not argue minutiae we have no say in anyways. BTW for the record here I am not saying I agree nor disagree with you on the 'more than one' thing, it doesn't really bother me either way but I'm sure Kroot would be grateful for the help.

Let's just not go back to that over and over, nor the who has sources things. There is an issue that is potentially being addressed here, to all our benefit, let's just be glad of that no?

MajorTom11 wrote:
p.s i can ask. BrookM, Ilfana and Mistress of mini's are the only other ladies on the boards as far as I know, so we could ask them too if Luna is too young!

I'm pretty sure it will impress THOSE ladies at the very least though! lol

Hang on a sec... BrookM's a girl?!

Brook? Picture of a chick? :S

Kanluwen wrote:The rumour stickies and how they'd be set up is a tricky one, isn't it?

No, it isn't tricky at all. Locked sticky thread with title "40K Rumors" Last Updated xyz. This thread has all the 40K rumors consolidated in 1 easy to find location. No discussion needed as the original post of the rumors has the discussion already.

Edit:
Actually, it doesn't even need to be locked. Discuss all ya want. The fact of the matter is all of the rumors will be in the first post, not somewhere between pg3 and pg 37.

MajorTom11 wrote:Brook? Picture of a chick? :S

Hmm... plenty of male dakkaites have female avatars e.g. JohnHwangDD. Anyway let's not digress too much

Flashman wrote:

MajorTom11 wrote:
p.s i can ask. BrookM, Ilfana and Mistress of mini's are the only other ladies on the boards as far as I know, so we could ask them too if Luna is too young!

I'm pretty sure it will impress THOSE ladies at the very least though! lol

Hang on a sec... BrookM's a girl?!

Don't think so

BrookM wrote:
Interests: Boobs, games, books and warm beds

Could be one of those girls...

Polonius wrote: Which means if Necrons are going to come out next summer, they've been working on them for almost a year already.

The rest of this post was good as well.

Work, quite a considerable amount AFAIK, has indeed been done/ongoing with regards to the Necrons for some time indeed.

Still Grey knights before them IMO.

BrookM is both male and ruggedly handsome. He could kill you with his bare hands.

reds8n wrote: He could kill you with his bare hands.

That's not lady-like at all, so he is out

Sorry BrookM :S

Not the last gender confusion on Dakka, I expect. We should all wear signs

If it helps anybody, I'm anatomically male, and I self identify as such.

I also sport the peen lol

Flashman wrote:Grey Knights

GW Design Team - "Now that we've just done one of our best Xenos releases of all time, what new and exciting projects shall we line up next?"
GW Management - "Wait a sec, it's been nearly 12 months since we've done a Space Marine release. Gah! We're in danger of losing our core 12 year old market. Get some new models out quick. Which ones? Er... have we done the blue guys recently? Yes? What about the red fellas? Only last year? Bother! Oh do the silver chaps then and make sure they look really cool so we can justify charging £35 for a box of five."

this post made my funny...

The thing I find so funny about when people complain about "All the marine codexes" they forget that the fundamental split of 40k armies is GEq and MEq(Marine equivilant). While the current trend has been a Marine/Non-Marine whos to say the order won't go GK-Tau-Necron-Sisters (putting Necron as a MEq army, which I have personally seen it as). The point being, there hasn't been a MEq army yet released that wasn't "Marines" (Granted, there are only really 2 armies that fit that bill, so it makes sense...) who's to say the pattern isn't "lets trade off between army types to keep from flooding either GEq or MEq armies?" (Sadly, with the current power of two of the 3 marine dexes (argueable 3of3) that flood does exist)?

Just my 2 cents.

Also, side note: I toss my vote in with Kroothawk doing the "rumor madness" thread and being given a custom title of "Keeper of Secrets"

~DAR

Polonius wrote:If it helps anybody, I'm anatomically male, and I self identify as such.

If it helps anybody, in real life I don't eat my enemies, well, not all anyways, even if my Avatar suggests otherwise

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:The thing I find so funny about when people complain about "All the marine codexes" they forget that the fundamental split of 40k armies is GEq and MEq(Marine equivilant). While the current trend has been a Marine/Non-Marine whos to say the order won't go GK-Tau-Necron-Sisters (putting Necron as a MEq army, which I have personally seen it as). The point being, there hasn't been a MEq army yet released that wasn't "Marines" (Granted, there are only really 2 armies that fit that bill, so it makes sense...) who's to say the pattern isn't "lets trade off between army types to keep from flooding either GEq or MEq armies?" (Sadly, with the current power of two of the 3 marine dexes (argueable 3of3) that flood does exist)?

Just my 2 cents.

Also, side note: I toss my vote in with Kroothawk doing the "rumor madness" thread and being given a custom title of "Keeper of Secrets"

~DAR

Don't think, my kindred would approve that title
Anyway, the Demonhunter Codex is 3rd edition, 7.5 years old, and deserves an update, powerarmour or not.

BTW, the development of a new Codex takes at least 3 years, 2 years alone for the plastic sprues. The DE Codex was special and took 6 years from start to finish.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:custom title of "Keeper of Secrets"

That's a cool idea.

1. There's no need for a 6th edition, as 5th edition still feels very young and the new books play well together. The rules are also leaps and bounds better than the previous two (and-a-half) editions, with far fewer bugs. No Tyranid puns, please.

2. Grey Knights are absolutely next. I know this for a fact. Necrons will be the next Xenos, and then likely Sisters, or another Imperial release to follow. Whichever books were first or last in the previous edition will have no bearing on which books come down the road, or in which order they will appear. ie: Chaos and Orks won't necessarily follow the "catch up" releases. Besides, both books offer a lot of variety and are still largely competitive in the tournament scene. Don't give me the Legions crap, as Chaos just so happens to be getting a different treatment. The main book was meant to be like Codex Space Marines; the vanilla rules for generic forces, with a few specials thrown in. Basically, it's Abaddon's army. If they do Legion releases, they will test the water for popularity, and then set them up like the Chapter Codexes for Space Marines. At least, this is what the head honchos in the S&M team have said (to me). All theory at this point, however, and I'm not confirming that this is in any way in progress.

3. If all holds as expected, it should look like this for 2011, if we're lucky (Fantasy releases in italics, if anyone actually cares):

February/March: Orcs & Goblins
April/May: Grey Knights
June/July: Tomb Kings
August/September: Necrons
[/i]October: unknown, perhaps another Fantasy release (Dwarfs, Empire, Bretonnia???)[/i]
November/December: Sisters

Keep in mind that GW rarely sticks to their release schedule, and they rarely release 3 armies for both systems in one year. Most often it's two, with some alternative summer release like a campaign, or the rumored "Summer of Flyers" release which will feature 7 large flyer kits for various 40k armies. Included will be 2 for Dark Eldar, 1 for Tyranids, 1 for Space Marines/Blood Angels/Grey Knights, etc.

brassangel wrote:June/July: Tomb Kings
August/September: Necrons

Something tells me GW isn't going to devote four consecutive months to Tomb Kings and Tomb Kings IN SPACE.

We just had Elves and Elves in Space... allbeit Evil Elves in Space

Flashman wrote:We just had Elves and Elves in Space... allbeit Evil Elves in Space

Point of fact:
We did not "just have Elves".
That implies an Army Book release for High Elves, which was not so. It was some models, and Skaven got the same treatment.

Just to clarify, I do have a perma-face palm expression of "WTF did you just say?" but with a full head of hair. And I only wear a dress periodically, on weekends.

I am definitely liking this schedule though. I will be excited to pick up the books for O&G and GKs, and Sisters being way off at the end of the year will give me time to save up some cash and time for the Faithgasm that will follow a release of models and book for my first and favorite 40k army

brassangel wrote:3. If all holds as expected, it should look like this for 2011, if we're lucky (Fantasy releases in italics, if anyone actually cares):

February/March: Orcs & Goblins
April/May: Grey Knights
June/July: Tomb Kings
August/September: Necrons
[/i]October: unknown, perhaps another Fantasy release (Dwarfs, Empire, Bretonnia???)[/i]
November/December: Sisters

Keep in mind that GW rarely sticks to their release schedule, and they rarely release 3 armies for both systems in one year. Most often it's two, with some alternative summer release like a campaign, or the rumored "Summer of Flyers" release which will feature 7 large flyer kits for various 40k armies. Included will be 2 for Dark Eldar, 1 for Tyranids, 1 for Space Marines/Blood Angels/Grey Knights, etc.

1.) GW usually sticks to their release schedule with only minor corrections. We just don't know it. Changes in release schedule rumours are not the same as changes in GW's release schedule.

2.) The times where new releases were stretched out over two months in a row are long gone. So your schedule misses half of the year of releases. If I had to do one myself, it would look like this:

January: Skaven 2nd wave (2 plastic kits, maybe including HPA and Plagueclaw Catapult, blisters incl. Ikit Claw and maybe new weapon teams, art book, battle magic cards) <- confirmed by GW Newsletter

February: GK (no SoB, no allies, less focus on Inquisition, but still in incl assassins, plastic ornate Knights and Termis, a new walker) <- many rumours (most details by stickmonkey)

March: O&G (by Jeremy Vetock, new army book design, new giant spider, new savage orcs on foot and with boars) <- confirmed by Harry

until June: wave 1.5 and 2 for Dark Eldar, with models for 90% of all Codex units and only some characters missing. <- confirmed by Jes Goodwin

Expected 2011, maybe early summer: Necrons (by Matt Ward, plastic large immortals, new spyder, new Monstrous Creature, new Vehicle)

Expected 2011, maybe early summer: Khemri (new plastic giant, ... )

Vague speculation about summer release of 40k flyer rules and models (7 models about to be released according to rumours)

Possible candidates for late 2011 Codex: SoB (started same time as GK but still problems with plastics), Tau (several models seen, project running for more than 2 years), Black Templar (Space Marines )

LOTR releases?

Could be fleshed out with details and links of course. Sources unprecise ATM.

SoB, by all accounts that I've seen on Warseer, here etc, were not started at the same time as GKs modelwise or bookwise.

Well, that's what Harry said. Same Harry that informed us about Space Hulk 2.5 years before the release
And don't make me link your statement again for future reference

My statement was my educated guess based on their normal pattern of releases. Dark Eldar are the exception to the rule, seemingly.

Kanluwen wrote:

Flashman wrote:We just had Elves and Elves in Space... allbeit Evil Elves in Space

Point of fact:
We did not "just have Elves".
That implies an Army Book release for High Elves, which was not so. It was some models, and Skaven got the same treatment.

Elves got three brand new kits (not including Island of Blood and the separate Sea Guard sprue) which to me is a big Elf release. GW seems to have upped the frequency of Waves this year - Imperial Guard (via Spearhead), Daemons & High Elves with Skaven in January - and I wonder if this is a release strategy we will see more of.

Release schedule?.......My best guess is this:

GK are next

Then maybe necrons but the question arises of whether they are xenos meq or not. This could be a factor if bw strictly adheres to the meq/non-meq pattern. If necrons are considered as meq then I could see sisters second with necrons following.

Those three would make up the 2011 release ached for 40k codices.

For 2012? My best guess is:

Tau

Black Templar

Eldar


For 2013 that leaves Dark Angels, Chaos SMs and maybe Orks or Deamons. After that???? I'd guess a new army such as Ad-mech or LatD and then finally 6th edition(BTW, my bet for 6th ed is for an evolution that os more like edition 5.5 as opposed to a major overhaul.


Note, I love my Tau, but GW has just started working on them and it is going to take a lot of work to bring the wargear heavy army to the current format. I'd rather they be done right than rushed. Also the army doesn't need the love as much as the others I set on front of them in my guess list

with models for 90% of all Codex units and only some characters missing

i really, really wouldn't hold too much stock on the 90% line here. There will be, for quite some time IMO, "holes" in the DE range for a while. Nothing insurmountable with a bit of know how and thought, but I would suggest the guard codex/range is a good indication here.

Death By Monkeys wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:Grey Knights are next
Sisters of Battle started shortly after the Grey Knights in regards to development...although nobody has stated a release
Necron/Tau sometime next year, heavy hints that Necrons drop around August

While SoB may have started development already, by the sound of Jes Goodwin's recent comments regarding the SoB models, I have my doubts that we'll see them in the near future. I think we'll be looking at Necrons after GKs.

There were problems with the DE molds as late as this summer. Sisters were started six months after Grey Knights, they'll probably be released six to nine months after Grey Knights.

Just focusing on 40k. What are the remaining codices to be updated to 5th?
Black Templars
Tau
Necrons
Dark Angels (?)
Eldar (?)

4th edition codices:
Codex: Black Templars
Codex: Chaos Daemons
Codex: Chaos Space Marines
Codex: Dark Angels
Codex: Eldar
Codex: Orks
Codex: Tau Empire

3rd editino codices:
Codex: Daemonhunters
Codex: Necrons
Codex: Witch Hunters

Hey Kroothawk, you mention authors for the other books. Do you know who is writing the GK book?

I can't see Chaos being updated for a whiel yet (although i wish it was). It only game out in 2007. There are plenty of codices that have been waiting longer.

It would be nice to believe that GW works on that principle, but the evidence is against it.

The holdup isn't writing the dex -- I wrote 80% of a new Tau codex in a few hours, having spent a few months thinking about it -- it is making the new models, and whatever ideas management may hold of how to time release to market.

What's really weird is that we all believe GW to be a company that sells models, yet they keep releasing new dexes which are short of the models in them.

Tyranids came out nine months ago, and they only have one new model -- and that had been designed and prototyped by Forge World years earlier.

Kilkrazy wrote:
What's really weird is that we all believe GW to be a company that sells models, yet they keep releasing new dexes which are short of the models in them.

Contrary to popular belief, the margin/gross on models is not nearly as high as the margin/gross on books. They can also print the books in the countries of which they plan to release them (as opposed to moving model molds/making models in every country they release) so they also save a ton on export costs. It also inspires folks to buy their outrageously overpriced modeling materials to make their own models (as well as buying forgeworld...) as well as the flux in the new models that they do make (as well as some of the older ones).

However, one problem I see with the DE release is how many people will just use their old models/cheap conversions as opposed to buying almost an entirely new range of options (like with IG/SW/BA) which may hurt the BoD's perception on making more "less popular" armies...

As much as I love the new models (which I do), I think more people (especially in this economy) will stick with their old models (buying maybe a small handful of the new stuff) instead of shelling out 200$ for their base force-org (I know I plan on using my old Urien model whenever I field him, and my old archon/dracon/archite models will still see the battle field on regular bases. I MAY get the new lilith (my old one is missing an arm) but other then that, I'm happy with my 18 raiders and 4 ravagers (I am about to smash a good 5 raiders so that I can make "proper wrecks") I'm guessing about 9 out of 10 of the DE players(who aren't new to the army) will do the same, hell even some of the new guys will probably be scanning ebay for cheap older armies so that they can get involved for less$. I'm hoping GW has the financial insight to see this (or at least something similar to this) and plans accordingly with their next release, but only time will tell.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
What's really weird is that we all believe GW to be a company that sells models, yet they keep releasing new dexes which are short of the models in them.

Contrary to popular belief, the margin/gross on models is not nearly as high as the margin/gross on books. They can also print the books in the countries of which they plan to release them (as opposed to moving model molds/making models in every country they release) so they also save a ton on export costs. It also inspires folks to buy their outrageously overpriced modeling materials to make their own models (as well as buying forgeworld...) as well as the flux in the new models that they do make (as well as some of the older ones).

However, one problem I see with the DE release is how many people will just use their old models/cheap conversions as opposed to buying almost an entirely new range of options (like with IG/SW/BA) which may hurt the BoD's perception on making more "less popular" armies...

As much as I love the new models (which I do), I think more people (especially in this economy) will stick with their old models (buying maybe a small handful of the new stuff) instead of shelling out 200$ for their base force-org (I know I plan on using my old Urien model whenever I field him, and my old archon/dracon/archite models will still see the battle field on regular bases. I MAY get the new lilith (my old one is missing an arm) but other then that, I'm happy with my 18 raiders and 4 ravagers (I am about to smash a good 5 raiders so that I can make "proper wrecks") I'm guessing about 9 out of 10 of the DE players(who aren't new to the army) will do the same, hell even some of the new guys will probably be scanning ebay for cheap older armies so that they can get involved for less$. I'm hoping GW has the financial insight to see this (or at least something similar to this) and plans accordingly with their next release, but only time will tell.

Also,the profit margin on GW's books is severely inflated by their price structure. The DE 'dex is a 96 page softcover and costs $30 US. Many hardcover rpg books that have over 3 times as many pages are $35 US.

I think many of the people who still have DE will stick with many of their old models,particularly the Raiders and Ravagers. The fact that they will stick with the old Raiders is especially bothersome,since you have to mount pretty much every unit in the DE army in a transport. At my FLGS,after the launch,they sold out of Wyches,but had tons of Raiders and Warriors still on the shelves. Players sticking with old models and/or buying secondhand models is nothing new,though,and happens with every army out there except for new ones. In fact,many of the DE players who will dumping their old armies on eBay will turn around and spend that cash to buy the new models.

My main concern with DE as it relates to how their fate will speed/slow releases for other less popular armies is that I just don't see their popularity being sustainable. They are still the "glass cannon" they were when they first dropped in 3rd,and they still look like an army that at least 80% of their players will struggle mightily to win games with. As during their debut,many will jump on their bandwagon,then drop them like a bad habit when they struggle. If what Jes is saying is true,then GW seems to acknowledge that by trying to get 90% of the mini's out in the first year for DE players to buy before many of them throw in the towl on the army. After that first year,they seem destined to fall back into the realm of a niche army.

Kilkrazy wrote:Tyranids came out nine months ago, and they only have one new model -- and that had been designed and prototyped by Forge World years earlier.

Think you exaggerated a bit there. Raveners and Gargoyles got new models (not new units though) and both the Venomthrope, Hive Guard and Trygon areboth new models and new units, only one of which was a forge world makeover model.

Oh grey knights here are some of the rumors, copied and pasted from various sources
Organisation/fluff:
Codex: there is much less focus on Inquisition aspects, and no SoB. No Allies. A GK army.

No allies from/to other Codii. new fodder units in codex. not same as guard units. Interesting bit here. Got to see some layout work on the new codex. I'll confirm the rumors of a fleshed out chapter org chart, but it's not your typical SM structure of 10 companies of 100 marines for sure.

The organization of GKs chapter being fleshed out has opened a number of new "roles"

The relation of Ordos Malleus to the Inquisition is also expanded upon

Officio Assassinorum also has an interesting fluff piece...albeit very short

To respond to the wishlisting of justicars being treated similar to Wolf guard, don't place bets on that.

It was apparent from my last contact Inq forces were still present...including storm troopers...but there are other new units there as well. From everything I've been told/heard the focus has definately shifted to GK. Not as many options for Inq, Assassins combined to a single unit with wargear to dictate functional role, Inq retinue changes that will effectively kill the tried and true power tactic of shooting everything in sight as it Deep Strikes in. The utter removal of use of allies from other codex books, or inclusion of units from this book with other armies (Self contained...no surprises there.) Overall I always felt the prior incarnation was inquisition with a dash of GK. The feel I have now is reverse of that...but there will still be very effective Inq builds to be had...so far as I know.

Special rules:
Combat squads were an option I know was playtested.

Some interesting Psychic abilities. just about all squads have psychic options. Heavy on they disabling side. Enemy psykers beware.

Not a lot of Mechanised. But quick to deploy.

Army wide. Daemonic Infestation makes summoned demons less instable?

The basic GK marine profile looks very similar to a SM sergeant.

A conversation earlier centered around an ability named "Out the Heretic" which could be used against non-daemon forces causing one unit to "count as" daemons. 'Out the Heretic' is well received by PT

While External Allies rules are gone by all accounts, it does not mean allies in the codex are gone. Inquisition forces ARE present, just not as dominant. And you will recognize others.

'Shrouding' basically unchanged...also known as nightfighting...one source suggests possible grant 6+ cover save (commentary: does this work with Annointed armor?)

'Rites of Exorcism' daemon units charging as if into difficult terrain.

'Aegis' enemy Psykers within 12" take psychic tests with +1d6

Chaos icons work to oppose GK units teleport ability. A unit with a chaos icon will block the ability of GK to teleport into battle within the icons area of influence. I'm hearing that there may also be other items that hinder this deployment tactic from other armies as well.

Wargear:
The new codex has new options (weapons, equipment, etc.) that will be included in those box sets.

Also, I understand there to be a standard 1 special weapon per 5 man squad, plus special options for the upgraded leader.

Yes, beyond psycannon and incinerator, there are 2 other special gk weapons I know were ptd...but these I can't go into detail on at this time. I'll say one had pretty poor response from the playtest group, but there could be some nice tactics developed to make it effective if it did move forward.

Corrected Psycannon profile:
24" A3 AP3 S6, no invulnerable saves, pinning test for units or models with psykers.
or 36" H1 AP4 S5 5" blast, no invulnerable saves, no cover saves. (does not cause psyker pinning)

Incinerator, no profile changes noted: S5 AP4 A1 template, no invulnerable or cover saves.

NFWs: NFW lose the changing abilities based on rank of user. standardized to PA NFW is PW with special abilities vs Daemons, TA NFW is FW with same. I've seen "other" sites reporting I said nfw gave wound daemons on 2+. I never said that. Not sure where that is coming from. From what I know right now NFW will be +2S across the board as now, but PAGKs will all count as PW, and TAGKs will all count as FW. Then on top of that, all nfw gain additional capabilities vs daemons. Plus unit leaders may have master crafted NFW...not sure if it's upgrade or standard.

GK Annointed Armor: All GKs (TA, PA, AA, etc.) wear ornate armor which has been blessed and annointed to provide additional protection both physically and spiritually. Any GK may always Re-roll any failed armor, invulnerable, or cover saves. Annointed Armor is not wargear. Has point cost. Works with Storm Shield. Not as good at might seem...(aka something else to this rule I dont know yet)

The rumor I had earlier about "Annointed armor" got some additional legs with a small twist. Looks like this could be granted to a unit containing a Gk chaplain. Much like other chaplains elsewhere grant re-rolls on charges, the gk chaplains are rumored to grant counter attack and re-rolls of armor saves...caveat being the reroll is only 1st round of cc... It's a complex confirmation, and taken alone I'd pour salt on it, but given I've heard of the anointed armor prior and recent codexes have some charge related chaplain ability...I thought I'd go ahead and post it. It's definitely taking more realistic tones...

New options for Dreadnaughts including librarian. psycannon arm. Purge weapon...large pie plate, special abilities include forcing instability test for daemons, including Daemons of Chaos armies, pinning in other armies.

Army list:
Do not hold too tightly to past structures and expectations.

As far as TAGK as troops? I havent seen anything indicating this. However, I do recall a discussion of TAGK filling roles in two slots though, possible Heavy and Elite.
The GK jet bike sketches did not look at all like sammaels...no plasma gun. Knights on them has NFW in lance style. Very bullet bike rider stance...ie leaning forward over bike, not upright like marine bikes. Had the swept front faring, but not wing motifs. Looked like twin linked storm bolters under slung beneath handles. Very aggressive looking. Too bad they got axed.

according to a tiny bit I got overnight, GK TAs will have access to the standard marine upgrades, plus NFW, incinerators, psycannons, etc., of course. But he is saying the cyclone launcher for them will be arm mounted like their Storm Bolters. I'm very skeptical of this, but this source is close enough to know, so I thought I'd pass it along.

Inq lords are hq and unlock ISTs as troops
ISTs are elite otherwise
ISTs can take chimera or valkyrie as dedicated transport
Inq lord retinue looks more like imperial guard command characters with some seritors thrown in
Temple Assassins one entry in elite, one stat line, options allow for customization into temple variants...but the actual temples are only mentioned in fluff, so some special rules look lost
Demonhosts look to be out
In troops we have imperial guard conscripts...like an imperial guard platoon, but conscripts only
Death cult assassins still elite, larger unit sizes, though
Penal legion squad in troops, different than imperial guard codex entry
chimeras or valkyries as dt only, and only imperial guard
Valkyries only dedicated transport, no vendetta option
Hellhounds in fast, same as imperial guard, but not variants
Deathstrike launchers in heavy, same as imperial guard...replacing orbital strike

Also, some weird dynamics in the ruleset if you have both inq and gk hq present. But details were not given.

(Ed: so from this batch it looks like inq is going to be viable, but I question really this more from a why standpoint. If GW did this, only the hq really separates it much from imperial guard, but handicapped ig. Hope to see more soon once the nov nastiness ends. Damn de are blocking all my insight into the future...)
From what I've been able to gather, the codex has the following counts...caveats apply:

Including Special Characters, not including variant units eg. exterminator/demolisher

Hq: 8-9 entries
El: 6-7 entries
Tr: 6 entries
Fa: 7 entries
He: 8 Entries
Dt: 4 entries

Ive heard the Army list section is between 12-14 pages.

Playtesting:
GK 2000pt AL from Playtest:

HQ
Grand Master with Retinue
Named character

Elite
5-man TAGK squad + 2 spec weapons
Dreadought - unknown configuration

Troop
2x 5-man PAGK squad + 1 spec weapon + razorback
10-man ?? squad + chimera

Fast
Storm Raven

No Heavies

The Playtest list posted was played against 2000 points of Orks including nobs, mek with kuston force field, lots of boys in trukks, a BattleWagon and dread mob. It was Capture & Control with Dawn of War.

GKs held most in reserve.
PAGKS in Razorback came in turn 2 and moved to boys flank. 1 squad got tarpitted with boys, the other fought thru boys to take objective 1.
unknown unit had HQ attached, spent game trading shots with dread mob until TAGKS arrived to help.
TAGKs TP in turn 4 and later assaulted Dread mob. 4 standing at end of game.
The StormRaven took out one trukk turn 3 and the bw turn 5. Dread and HQ w retinue arrived in it and assaulted Nob mob. wiping it out in 1 round. then started after other boys.

It was reported as a pretty one sided battle. GKs nearly unassailable. GK win with 1 objective and second contested in turn 6. supposedly orks were close to 4:1 outnumbering GKs

Models:
The box sets should all be plastic.

The GK models are ornate.

The biggest issue you'll find with the TAs is scale. The new plastics are in scale with the other TA models. The metals are old scale sized. Its a noticable difference.

But even the AA marines look "bigger", though not to such a great extent, to me.

Once painted, the new models have better depth of detail IMO. And more small details not present in the metals. This is in both TA and AA. The best examples to look at are the Blood Angel plastics to understand how much detail can be crammed onto a figure, but still look good.

Plastics:
Storm Raven. obvious choice. Options for BA, GK and (note, other sources say that a BA second wave containing storm raven and librarian/furioso dread are slated for a separate January release) I've had personal conversations with direct individuals, which would surprise me if the SR model was not a keystone of this release. I've personally seen a few mockups of the SR from the modelling teams, many more from the art team. I know what the final selected design is. It looks better than I imagined.

TA knights: 5 pack, Paladin upgrades, squad upgrades. Psycannon, NFW, SSTH, banner? Supposed options for all will be on sprue. Plus NFW will NOT all be halberds. But the exact nature of them was not revealed to me. If this pans out we could see a lot of weapon options in the sprue...a lot more than would be used. Assault Cannon, PsyCannon, Incinerator, SS, TH, NFWs, Cyclone launchers...seems like a lot to jam in, but if we look at SW and BA boxes those were loaded with bits. The GK TA sprues:

5 legs
6 torsos
8 heads
6 nfw
5 SB
unknown # Special Weapons (includeing SS), but if above holds it could be 6+
GK TA back banner
6-8 shoulder shields
12 shoulder pads
~12 upgrade bits (books, scrolls, crux terminus, etc.)
8 arm sets (sounds like the arms have no hands, similar to sanguinary guard)
4 hands (right/left?)
more?

PA knights: 10 pack, justicar upgrades, squad upgrades, extra bits. NFW, psycannon, incinerator, banner?

walker: There have been some rumors of a GK driven walker. I have not personally seen this in any incarnation. However, there is a boxed walker of some type. I suspect this is a dreadnaught box set that will also have bits for BA. (see above) I've seen other people posting rumors of a penitent engine style walker, with a PAGK driver...I have absolutely no confirmation of such a beast. However, if GW wanted to avoid the cries of "GK dont have Dreads, it isnt fluffy" that could be a way...

Tank: I have not seen mention of a GK troop transport. Rhino based with psycannon options has been in some PT. I list this as possible, but unlikely, 4 box sets of this size are about par for a release, 5 would be a surprise.

Blisters:
New Stern

New Chaplain?

Justicar upgrade character

Paladin upgrade character

Inquisition character

2 other blisters unknown contents

Other:

Later release of GK themed terrain set? Concepts are out and some "preview" shots are floating around if you hunt. Nothing more I can say on this.

Bigred here,
Two major points on all this stuff. You will note that are two major contradictory chunks in there about the use if IG Allies being minimized greatly to being removed altogether, along with that giant set of IG codex options in the middle in italics. We have heard that most of those IG options are no longer in the codex, focussing it squarely on the Grey Knights.

Secondly, look at that playtest game not for specifics, but for reenforcement of what we have been hearing of this codex being the new high watermark for the "Elite of the Elite" codex in the game now, with viable tabletop options that can win with modelcounts in the 20-30 range for the entire force.

You jsut copy-pasted from the Grey Knights thread

Gorlack wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Tyranids came out nine months ago, and they only have one new model -- and that had been designed and prototyped by Forge World years earlier.

Think you exaggerated a bit there. Raveners and Gargoyles got new models (not new units though) and both the Venomthrope, Hive Guard and Trygon areboth new models and new units, only one of which was a forge world makeover model.

I bow to your superior knowledge.

We're still waiting for a Tervigon, of course, which is one of the most popular choices in the dex.

Just as a question, does anyone ever bother contacting GW about any of this just to see what they say? I assume the response is " we have no information at this time", but has anyone here given it a go?

liam0404 wrote:Just as a question, does anyone ever bother contacting GW about any of this just to see what they say? I assume the response is " we have no information at this time", but has anyone here given it a go?

I have done so and yes, that was pretty much exactly their response.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Gorlack wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Tyranids came out nine months ago, and they only have one new model -- and that had been designed and prototyped by Forge World years earlier.

Think you exaggerated a bit there. Raveners and Gargoyles got new models (not new units though) and both the Venomthrope, Hive Guard and Trygon areboth new models and new units, only one of which was a forge world makeover model.

I bow to your superior knowledge.

We're still waiting for a Tervigon, of course, which is one of the most popular choices in the dex.

I submit Pyrovore as-well. Do I get any bowing or just a pat on the back?

I'd only expect them to only ever further release Tervigons or Spore Pods for Tyranids also, but there's been no rumours of such...

Just a pat, I think, since Gorlack got in there first.

The Hive Guard are IMO butt ugly aliens and expensive, but I may look into converting them from the slightly less expensive and not so butt-ugly Raveners.

GW really shouldn't make any models that large in metal any more.

There is a rumour of a Tyranid flying creature in kit form.

Kilkrazy wrote:We're still waiting for a Tervigon, of course, which is one of the most popular choices in the dex.

Not everyone is waiting



And there is always the cheaper conversion kit by Chapterhouse, which is closer to the original concept. And other carnifex conversions (e.g. http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/02/voting-bols-tyranid-challenge-finalists.html ). Even when I prefer my model

I knew about that kit.

Actually I am converting my own Tervigon from a 2nd hand Carnifex.

The point is that GW have no prospect of producing a kit of one of the key units in the Tyranid codex.

Kilkrazy wrote:
The point is that GW have no prospect of producing a kit of one of the key units in the Tyranid codex.

Talk about gaps in product lines; here's a blast from the past...(pun intended)

agnosto wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
The point is that GW have no prospect of producing a kit of one of the key units in the Tyranid codex.

Talk about gaps in product lines; here's a blast from the past...(pun intended)

explain please.

Im a bit green

No Chaos Dwarf range and official army book currently.

Geeze, that IS old.

Kroothawk wrote:No Chaos Dwarf range and official army book currently.

There never was an "official" army book from what I can recall. Just a Ravening Hordes army list.

There was an army book, I remember it. Was lovely, had a battle report in it and everything IIRC.
I particularly liked the Hobgoblins for some reason too.

If I'm wrong, someone please correct me but I really remember there being an army book...

Kanluwen wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:No Chaos Dwarf range and official army book currently.

There never was an "official" army book from what I can recall. Just a Ravening Hordes army list.

There was an official army book for 4th edition. I think it might have been a reprint of stuff that was originally in White Dwarf, though.

AlexHolker wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:No Chaos Dwarf range and official army book currently.

There never was an "official" army book from what I can recall. Just a Ravening Hordes army list.

There was an official army book for 4th edition. I think it might have been a reprint of stuff that was originally in White Dwarf, though.

I just decided to Wikipedia it and here we go:

The background and rules for Chaos Dwarfs appeared in early editions of WFB and they were given several entries in Warhammer Armies and Slaves to Darkness for the 3rd edition as part of the Chaos army. For the 4th edition they became a full army in their own right, gaining a detailed background and full range of miniatures. However, unlike the other armies they were not given a proper Warhammer Armies book but instead had material that had already been published over several issues of White Dwarf issued as a single publication: White Dwarf Presents: Chaos Dwarfs. This included all of the standard army book contents but the material was not edited to work as a single book.

In the 1990s, the Chaos Dwarfs were a fully supported army but by the end of the decade the models were no longer stocked in Games Workshop stores due to lack of popularity with players. It was thought they would be removed from the game entirely, like the Squats in Warhammer 40,000. This turned out to be unfounded when Games Workshop published an army list for them in the supplement Ravening Hordes when 6th edition Warhammer was released. Despite this, there was next to no material about them in any Games Workshop publication for the following few years.

The Chaos Dwarfs are no longer directly supported as a full army like most in the Warhammer Fantasy Battle table top game. Their only "army book" is now out of date since the Ravening Hordes rules and Chaos Dwarf FAQ were removed from the Games Workshop website. There isn't a range of miniatures in the shops, but some of the miniatures were available from the Games Workshop Online Store for a time after the range was removed from the stores. However, around the end of 6th edition in 2005, the Chaos Dwarf miniature range was discontinued and made completely unavailable from Games Workshop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Dwarfs_%28Warhammer%29

So it sounds like the Chaos Dwarf "army book" was more an Index Astartes/Warhammer Annual styled thing rather than an army book proper.

Right, for 4th edition there was a standard sized book including all info that is usually found in an army book, but was just a reprint of White Dwarf articles. Therefore "White Dwarf presents: Chaos Dwarfs - A Warhammer Supplement". So for all practical purposed it was an army book, but not officially called that. It was filled with bighat Chaos Dwarfs only.



BTW the pictured non-bighat Chaos Dwarfs were released before that.

Aaaah! That's the one I remember! OK, so not quite an army book it seems...

Just Dave wrote:Aaaah! That's the one I remember! OK, so not quite an army book it seems...

It seems it is an army book in all but its name.

I'm really hoping for GK in Feb. The promise of plastic GKs is what dragged me out of hiding after 6 years away from the hobby.

wolfshadow wrote:I'm really hoping for GK in Feb. The promise of plastic GKs is what dragged me out of hiding after 6 years away from the hobby.

February is pretty much confirmed as the Blood Angels Wave 2 release, according to the Stormraven leak:

I painted this Stormraven to match the battleforce that I painted for the Blood Angels army workshop in February 2011's White Dwarf...

What else is in the BA Wave 2 release?

The Furioso Cybot I guess.

Alpharius wrote:What else is in the BA Wave 2 release?

We're not even sure the SR will be in that wave, given the wording indicating the pictures SR was painted to fit in with a pre-existing article.

Alpharius wrote:What else is in the BA Wave 2 release?

I'm thinking Stormraven, Furioso, the Librarian/Chaplain plastic kit and possibly a BA Battleforce. There might also be some updates of the old 2nd edition special characters, but that's just unfounded speculation.

Dysartes wrote:We're not even sure the SR will be in that wave, given the wording indicating the pictures SR was painted to fit in with a pre-existing article.

Remember that White Dwarf comes out earlier in the month than the releases do. So people would read the article around the 28th of January, then read the Stormraven online article around the 5th when the Stormraven is actually released.

Frgt/10 over at Warseer confirmed the release date for the STorm Raven:

having seen multiple pictures of the stormraven (and the other feb releases for that matter); that is indeed the official GW model.
It looks awesome when you see it from other angles, and it comes with EVERY option in the BA codex.(...)
in fact as of feb it will be more than just BA and grey knights...

This means new GK Codex and miniatures, some BA release (Storm Raven for both, then Furioso and maybe Battleforce) plus something else which I guess is the wave 1.5 for Dark Eldar. Quite a lot for just one month

Kroothawk wrote:Frgt/10 over at Warseer confirmed the release date for the STorm Raven:

in fact as of feb it will be more than just BA and grey knights...

This means new GK Codex and miniatures, some BA release (Storm Raven for both, then Furioso and maybe Battleforce) plus something else which I guess is the wave 1.5 for Dark Eldar. Quite a lot for just one month

I took that sentence as meaning the Stormraven would be more than just a BA and Grey Knights vehicle by then, i.e. being available for Space Marines in general.

Maybe WD rulespack, same as Nightspinner?

AlexHolker wrote:

Alpharius wrote:What else is in the BA Wave 2 release?

I'm thinking Stormraven, Furioso, the Librarian/Chaplain plastic kit and possibly a BA Battleforce. There might also be some updates of the old 2nd edition special characters, but that's just unfounded speculation.

Oh, please let THAT be one of the upcoming releases!

Has there already been rumors of that actually happening?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Maybe WD rulespack, same as Nightspinner?

I'd be shocked if GW DIDN'T do this. Makes $en$e after all...

There have been mentions of a Lib/chap kit, but I'm a bit skeptical about this meself.

Alpharius wrote:Has there already been rumors of that actually happening?

No.

GW's been pretty tight on rumor control recently.

And by control I mean Darth Vader style control.

BrookM wrote:There have been mentions of a Lib/chap kit, but I'm a bit skeptical about this meself.

Truthfully,the only real mentions I've seen of a plastic Lib/Chap kit are people wishing for one.

Alpharius wrote:Has there already been rumors of that actually happening?

Stickmonkey suggested it might be a long way out, but this is pretty much their only chance of releasing it as part of a wave any time soon. Space Wolves are waiting for another wave but have their own unique look and a Chaplain/Apothecary hybrid, Grey Knights have their own unique look and are swamped by pseudo-Chaplain/Librarians anyway, Black Templars don't use Librarians, Dark Angel characters would wear robes...

Sorry for the lack of patience, but this thread got to many posts, and i got few time to comment the start of it...

I read in somewhere that next Codex will be Daemon Hunters, no GK, and it will have some options for a "IG inclined" army or a "space marines inclined army".
Still beying pointless, but at least it will not be a reprint of "codex: sapace marines" with more cheesy options...

Maybe GW had discovered a new way to make money, bring new kids to the hobby and keep the old fans on it: do a Xeno Scum codex, fallowed by a Armored Eunuchs one, with a Mechanized Human Scum replacing the Xeno Scum sometimes...

I could not play where i am, except for online games, wich make me just love new plastics releases, because they give me beutifull detailed models to paint. So, i just hope that the plastic GKs comes in a similar way to the Dark Eldar, Space Wolves and Blood Angels: squads of 10 troops for around U$ 20 and 5 elite guys for around U$ 35.

When SoB comes, i hope they come as sexy armoured nuns, as i hope for plastic aspect warriors for eldars one day...

What you want to read is here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/322631.page

Or on the BoLS Lounge (which keeps far more current than the actual blog itself, but then blogs suck anyway so that's fine):

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=8719


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:When SoB comes, i hope they come as sexy armoured nuns, as i hope for plastic aspect warriors for eldars one day...

I hope not. If GW tries to overtly make them "sexy" they'll not only fail, they'll also insult their customers too.

I just hope that the new Sisters see to it that they have a better hairstyle this time round. Some bald screaming heads would be ace.

Hoping Sisters will get better non-fetish armour is a lost cause. It will never change. Though, you could swap out the corset and bra torso for a different one if it was all in plastic I guess.

But yeah; doomed to be 'sexy nuns' forever.

terribletrygon wrote:Hoping Sisters will get better non-fetish armour is a lost cause. It will never change. Though, you could swap out the corset and bra torso for a different one if it was all in plastic I guess.

But yeah; doomed to be 'sexy nuns' forever.

Eh. The Sisters, at least the classic models, really aren't that over-the-top fetishistic to me. The only real issues I could agree on is that the armor as designed is extremely ornate and form fitting.

Ornate is hard to argue in the context of 40k... The setting's whole "gothic styling in SPAAAAACE" really encourages that, what with the ships that look like old cathedrals and the Space Marines and other characters adorned with Purity Symbols and other tchotckes. The SoB are a weird mix of 'practical' and 'ceremonial' so the armor as-is looks like it was designed to be all-purpose as both a dress uniform and a field uniform. Again, a concept that works quite well in 40k where looking good on the battlefield seems to be a big deal.

Form fitting is a bit harder to defend, I admit. Still, the older models aren't particularly revealing and the armor is perhaps a bit like the 'detailed muscle' armor found in historical armor and the new Blood Angels. Because it's so much less armored than the Space Marine equivalent, I know I've said in the past I'd have been OK if it dropped a point of armor saves and was redescribed as 'power-assisted carapace' or some such. Assuming the points came down with this...

Still, some of the C:WH models were a bit over the top for me. The Sisters Repentia, for one, which I thought were a not-great idea combined with models that just didn't do it for me. The new canoness for that release, as well, had both very pointy boobs and a flaming backpack which I had to deal with as I thought they looked a bit stupid.

A certain amount of over-the-top design is really par for the course. I don't look at 40k and expect much more than a whiff of realism or even practicalness. I expect things to be outrageously overdone.

terribletrygon wrote:Hoping Sisters will get better non-fetish armour is a lost cause. It will never change. Though, you could swap out the corset and bra torso for a different one if it was all in plastic I guess.

But yeah; doomed to be 'sexy nuns' forever.

In the grim darkness of the 41st century, men's fists are bigger than their brains and women are sexy.

terribletrygon wrote:Hoping Sisters will get better non-fetish armour is a lost cause. It will never change. Though, you could swap out the corset and bra torso for a different one if it was all in plastic I guess.

The armor might not be so bad if you actually got the equipment they showed on it., what with all the light armor running around these days.

Joking aside though, plastic would be nice precisely because of that. You could add something new, or even just try to modify whats there as plastic is convert with than metal. It'd be nice to have some way to reasonable get sensible SoB models. Conceptually the faction is really great, however the the armor design is just a deal-breaker for me.

I think the armour of SoB was discussed at some length here and that it has little to do with the 'Codex Schedule'. Maybe it's just me though...

What if sisters got something like this:

Assisted Carapace armor- Grants the user a 4+ armor save. Failed armor saves may be re-rolled, but save on a roll of 6

? I agree it really isn't power armor. 11 points isn't enough for a 3+ save and 4 BS, IMO.

Samus_aran115 wrote:What if sisters got something like this:

No.

AlexHolker wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:What if sisters got something like this:

No.

I'll second that. They have always had power armor and that shouldn't change.

I still think it's more of a conditional 3+ save though....I dunno. I seriously doubt it would provide as significant protection as space marine power armor. Too bad there's no such thing as a 3.5+ save

Please stay on topic, and keep the "Proposed Rules" in the right section...

Samus_aran115 wrote:I still think it's more of a conditional 3+ save though....I dunno. I seriously doubt it would provide as significant protection as space marine power armor.

It does in-game, and it specifically says that it does in the codex.

Ergo, it does. Simple as that.

Just because the model design is crappy does not mean that there is any need to change the rules. It just means there's a need to change the models.

Which, I'm hoping, the Sisters codex will bring. When I think of the concept behind Sisters of Battle, I want to see knights in shining armor. Not corsets, bras, and skirts...

We won't know until sometime mid next year, though, at this rate-- we didn't know the looks for Dark Eldar except maybe a month before? Heck, we don't even know the looks of the Grey Knight codex and models which is rumored to be next.

Sisters of Battle are not, have never been, nor ever will be, "knights in shining armor".

That's y'know..."The Grey Knights".

I think she might be referring to how the Sisters of Battle are based off Joan of Arc as well as the Nun thing. Though I wouldn't call her a knight per say.

Good thing that this is not the topic of this thread.

You are right. I am sorry.


The topic of this thread is making Kroothawk the Rumour Master.

Kanluwen wrote:Sisters of Battle are not, have never been, nor ever will be, "knights in shining armor".

That's y'know..."The Grey Knights".

You also forgot Black Templars (for those who like Knights, but hate merlin)

I really hope the redo the "sisters" into a multi-gender "Forces of the Inquisition" codex (basically, inquisitorial forces that aren't space marines, male or female)... to assume that the IoM is such a patriarchal chauvinistic society that they would never consider a female "primarch" or "space marine" and that every lord-govener/high inquisitor I have EVER HEARD OF (including the High Lords of Terra) have been male but they would have an entire BRANCH of the military with the top-of-the-line armor/weaponry that is ONLY women is quite the stretch... The SoB as they are seem to me to be merely a failed form of "fanservice" that really does nothing else but serve a testament to the Sexism of wargamers (and society) and should be addressed. (Now, I believe that the new =I= forces should still have battle sisters in it, but there is no reason((sans fuzzy-logic/inconsistant realism/CS Goto)) they should/would not have males side-by-side in their ranks).

As far as the schedule is concerned, again, I am hoping that they do GKs justice (just because I would like to see more opponents using them/would be nice to see how they do a 'heavy psyker' army) but what I would be more interested in would be more WD released material (like the nightspinner). I think it gives GW a chance to update certain armies in a small way, but enough to keep their fanbases interested until their actual codex update is released. (TBH I'm expecting a WD Sheet for the Storm Raven that would apply to all the SM armies ((BT, DA, SW, and Basemarines. As well as possibly GreyKnights, unless they just include it in the codex) as well as some online tutorials (or even just pictures) on how to make the models that don't exist yet (or at least give an approximate size/base size to keep things consistant between gamers. TBH ATM I don't know if I should be putting my old Grotesque models on Termi-sized bases and I have no clue what to use for Wracks...)

LOL I was waiting to see how long it took for Melissia to get here, what with all the SoB talk.

This thread has pretty well jumped the shark. I foresee a locking in the near future.

Ok so lets get back on topic then.

Are we still expecting to see the following schedule then for next year?

Grey Knights
Necrons (maybe Tau)
Sisters
Tau (or maybe Necrons)

I didn't name months since these thigns are so fluid but I expect based on what people have said for the first codex to arrive in March though it would be nice to see January then April like this year.
Despite what Jes said i think we still have plenty of time to see Sisters next year as it implies they have more than started work on the Sisters if they are looking at some detail problems.

With that recent Stormraven pic released, its GOT to be GK's next. Never been a huge fan of the IP of GK/SoB/Inquisition AND despised the players who used/are using these books to make some uber cheesy lists. After seeing the BA's book, I just can't WAIT to see what's gonna be in store for the GK's...

I'd really like to see more Xenos get the limelight over the next year, Necrons this Spring, Tau end of next Summer, and some big rumors for my Astartes in spikey armors for 2012. After seeing how well done and impressive the DE book/models came out however, I wouldn't mind them taking their time and putting in the energy and effort with Necrons.

ALSO...here's to hoping for a new Tomb Kings, Bretonnia, or Dwarves book somewhere within the next year. All three armies are most deserving.

bd1085 wrote:With that recent Stormraven pic released, its GOT to be GK's next. Never been a huge fan of the IP of GK/SoB/Inquisition AND despised the players who used/are using these books to make some uber cheesy lists. After seeing the BA's book, I just can't WAIT to see what's gonna be in store for the GK's...

Thats kind of funny. Nobody I assure you is making cheesy lists with WH in there. Vulcan and Sisters is not cheesy, its gimping yourself in some ways. I'm glad you despise me and others for playing WH. Nice way to lump people together.

andrewm9 wrote:

bd1085 wrote:With that recent Stormraven pic released, its GOT to be GK's next. Never been a huge fan of the IP of GK/SoB/Inquisition AND despised the players who used/are using these books to make some uber cheesy lists. After seeing the BA's book, I just can't WAIT to see what's gonna be in store for the GK's...

I'm glad you despise me and others for playing WH. Nice way to lump people together.

I assure you he was referring to IG/Mystics

~edit~

And IIRC, Mystics are in the WH book as well.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:I really hope the redo the "sisters" into a multi-gender "Forces of the Inquisition" codex (basically, inquisitorial forces that aren't space marines, male or female)... to assume that the IoM is such a patriarchal chauvinistic society that they would never consider a female "primarch" or "space marine" and that every lord-govener/high inquisitor I have EVER HEARD OF (including the High Lords of Terra) have been male but they would have an entire BRANCH of the military with the top-of-the-line armor/weaponry that is ONLY women is quite the stretch...

The Primarchs are male because they were created from the male Emperor's DNA, and the Space Marines are male because they were created from the male Primarchs' DNA.

As for everything else you said, it's impossible to take your claim to be fighting sexism seriously when you want to further skew GW away from equal representation by destroying the only predominantly female army in the game.

andrewm9 wrote:Are we still expecting to see the following schedule then for next year?

Grey Knights
Necrons (maybe Tau)
Sisters
Tau (or maybe Necrons)

Yes. We've heard nothing about any of the other 4th edition codices, so it's reasonable to assume that the 4 3rd edition codices are all getting done before moving on to the others.

Despite what Jes said i think we still have plenty of time to see Sisters next year as it implies they have more than started work on the Sisters if they are looking at some detail problems.

I agree. If they're using computer-aided design I'd at least expect the appearance of the armour to be done, even if the cloth and hair are holding up other aspects of the design work.

AlexHolker wrote:
it's impossible to take your claim to be fighting sexism seriously when you want to further skew GW away from equal representation by destroying the only predominantly female army in the game.

Predominantly Female = Sexism.

Just like how the Black panthers are racist (even tho they are black)

But to save this thread from derailing, I will happily address any further comlpaints via PM!

andrewm9 wrote:

bd1085 wrote:With that recent Stormraven pic released, its GOT to be GK's next. Never been a huge fan of the IP of GK/SoB/Inquisition AND despised the players who used/are using these books to make some uber cheesy lists. After seeing the BA's book, I just can't WAIT to see what's gonna be in store for the GK's...

Thats kind of funny. Nobody I assure you is making cheesy lists with WH in there. Vulcan and Sisters is not cheesy, its gimping yourself in some ways. I'm glad you despise me and others for playing WH. Nice way to lump people together.

you can use Vulkan and sisters together. thats why no one has lists with them together.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
I assure you he was referring to IG/Mystics

~edit~

And IIRC, Mystics are in the WH book as well.

They are not in WH at all. That is specifically DH. I wish WH had some of same options as DH like psycannons. Its possible like an earlier poster said that this thread has run its course. Perhaps its tiem to move on.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

andrewm9 wrote:

bd1085 wrote:With that recent Stormraven pic released, its GOT to be GK's next. Never been a huge fan of the IP of GK/SoB/Inquisition AND despised the players who used/are using these books to make some uber cheesy lists. After seeing the BA's book, I just can't WAIT to see what's gonna be in store for the GK's...

I'm glad you despise me and others for playing WH. Nice way to lump people together.

I assure you he was referring to IG/Mystics

~edit~

And IIRC, Mystics are in the WH book as well.

Mystics are only in the DH codex.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:I really hope the redo the "sisters" into a multi-gender "Forces of the Inquisition" codex (basically, inquisitorial forces that aren't space marines, male or female)

Why would they have to get rid of the Sisters to do that?

Oh wait. That's right. You don't.

I'm perfectly fine with the Inquisition getting their own codex, but to the warp with all the ideas that say Sisters should be combined with them in some way. Thankfully GW feels the same way, because they are not making an Inquisition combined codex, even insulting the idea by calling it "fanwank".

So, to bring it back on topic: Reading over at the BoLS Lounge rumors thread... a while back, it was posted that work on Sisters was started six months after Grey Knights. So they're likely to come shortly after, even if they don't come immediately after.

AlexHolker wrote:Yes. We've heard nothing about any of the other 4th edition codices, so it's reasonable to assume that the 4 3rd edition codices are all getting done before moving on to the others.

Tau isn't a third edition codex.

I may have missed it, but does anyone know if there are going to be new IST models with the expected DH release?

To be honest, they should just do Plastic Karskin style Stormtroopers with the release. That way Codexes Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights benefit.

terribletrygon wrote:To be honest, they should just do Plastic Karskin style Stormtroopers with the release. That way Codexes Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights benefit.

They really need to do plastic models for everything with maybe the exception of special characters. Does anyone like working with, or painting, pewter??? I was disappointed when I saw the new Mandrakes and Incubi were metal. I wouldnt at all be surprised to see the haemonculi and wracks end up being pee-you-ter as well. that has always been the foundation for all table top games....but evolution happens for a reason...plastic is better GW!

Guess GW becomes the victim of its own plastic hype. Only high sales justify the costs for plastic moulds, so no characters, elites and other rare stuff. And to answer your question: Many gamers and painters love the exquisite quality of metal sculpts not achievable in plastic due to principal limits (e.g. undercuts and the softness of the material -> softer edges). The main GW argument (plastics are cheaper!) was lost in GW's price policy.

I don't get why Mandrakes and Incubi should be plastic. Most people will barely have more then one small squad in their army and they are all going to have the same equipment. There is no point.

I actually think GW's newest line of plastic miniatures are better than most of my GW metal miniatures.

Mind you, my Sisters models were sculpted back in second edition.

Samus_aran115 wrote:I still think it's more of a conditional 3+ save though....I dunno. I seriously doubt it would provide as significant protection as space marine power armor. Too bad there's no such thing as a 3.5+ save

Why should it be a lower armor save? The model is pretty much totally encased in metal,except for the heads on models with exposed heads. The only reason SM armor looks more protective is because it's on a 9 foot tall,350-400 pound person instead of a 5'8",130-150 pound person. With Carapace armor,there are many uncovered/unprotected areas.

From a fluff standpoint,Dark Heresey/Deathwatch is more accurate,and puts the armor ratings as follows...

Astartes Terminator Armor=AP14 in all locations,plus Force Field with a PR of 35[35% chance to completely nullify incoming attack]
Astartes Artificer Armor=AP 12 in all locations
Astartes Power Armor[SM power armor]=AP 10 in the main body,AP 8 in the arms,legs,and head
Power Armor[for SoB's,Inquisitors,etc]=AP 8 in all locations
Storm Trooper Carapace Armor=AP 6 in all locations
Astartes Scout Armor=AP 6 in the body and arms
Imperial Guard Flak Armor=AP 4 in all locations

SoB power armor is much closer to SM power armor than it is to SM Scout armor,if that's the comparison you want to use,so it should stay at 3+.

terribletrygon wrote:I don't get why Mandrakes and Incubi should be plastic. Most people will barely have more then one small squad in their army and they are all going to have the same equipment. There is no point.

Not that they should be plastic...I would just prefer to work with plastic. I also think plastic enables you to bash kits together, so there could potentially be a 'bash market' for those figures as well if they were plastic. It is no interest to me if it is cost efficient or effective for GW to make them pewter, im a consumer, so im looking at it through my perspective.

Melissia wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:Yes. We've heard nothing about any of the other 4th edition codices, so it's reasonable to assume that the 4 3rd edition codices are all getting done before moving on to the others.

Tau isn't a third edition codex.

I know, I was talking about Dark Eldar, Grey Knights, Necrons and SoB.

Well yeah, but DE has already been released so it's not like it's fair to say it's on the schedule anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Whatever1 wrote:From a fluff standpoint,Dark Heresey/Deathwatch is more accurate,and puts the armor ratings as follows...

Actually there are no stats for Sororitas power armor yet in Dark Heresy. Certainly it should be higher-grade than civilian-class power armor.

I'm fine with either plastic or metal figures.

Where plastic really scores is in reducing the weight of larger models, and making their assembly easier.

That said, I don't think the Venomthrope would work in plastic because the tentacles are too thin. It could be done as a mixed media kit, with plastic body and metal tentacles.

Element206 wrote:

terribletrygon wrote:I don't get why Mandrakes and Incubi should be plastic. Most people will barely have more then one small squad in their army and they are all going to have the same equipment. There is no point.

Not that they should be plastic...I would just prefer to work with plastic. I also think plastic enables you to bash kits together, so there could potentially be a 'bash market' for those figures as well if they were plastic. It is no interest to me if it is cost efficient or effective for GW to make them pewter, im a consumer, so im looking at it through my perspective.

Except those metals have wide stances and no cloaks or anything. So kit bashing them shouldn't be a problem at all. Head and arm swaps would be child's play, and with the thin Dark Eldar body shape, cleaving them in two and torso swapping would be within the ability of the basic modeller. Heck, the Incubi were designed with kit bashing in mind, hence why they have their heads separately in addition to their arms. They are already kit bashable without any cutting work required.

Of course too many 40k modellers have an irrational fear of metal, as if touching the stuff will instantly give them hand cancer or something. If you know what you are doing, working with metal models can be as easy as working with plastic.

However, I do agree that when it comes to basic troops, models with lots of options and large models, plastic will always be the best route.

Am hoping for a BT updated codex in the near future. Having read the BA codex and given the similarity for up front CC troops and the like the Templars seem to be lagging behind somewhat. That said I do appreciate that there are other non-marine codices that need more attention.

Flashman wrote:Grey Knights

GW Design Team - "Now that we've just done one of our best Xenos releases of all time, what new and exciting projects shall we line up next?"
GW Management - "Wait a sec, it's been nearly 12 months since we've done a Space Marine release. Gah! We're in danger of losing our core 12 year old market. Get some new models out quick. Which ones? Er... have we done the blue guys recently? Yes? What about the red fellas? Only last year? Bother! Oh do the silver chaps then and make sure they look really cool so we can justify charging £35 for a box of five."

Grey Knights? Not my taste.

I agree here that we need another series of new SM models, tanks, whatever. But for that, we need another incarnation of the Codex,
or DA, BT should be reconsidered soon.

darthmatty wrote:Am hoping for a BT updated codex in the near future.

They'll be the next Marine release (I don't really count GK's as 'Marines' in the traditional sense). I'd expect GK's, Necrons, Black Templars/Tau and then Tau/Black Templars.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

darthmatty wrote:Am hoping for a BT updated codex in the near future.

They'll be the next Marine release (I don't really count GK's as 'Marines' in the traditional sense). I'd expect GK's, Necrons, Black Templars/Tau and then Tau/Black Templars.

Completely without basis.

There's been zero suggestions of a BT codex any time soon.

It's depressing to realize that after waiting for years for DE to get a new codex I'm already looking towards the horizon for Necrons and Tau. Interesting that my first three armies may be released so close together though!

Melissia wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

darthmatty wrote:Am hoping for a BT updated codex in the near future.

They'll be the next Marine release (I don't really count GK's as 'Marines' in the traditional sense). I'd expect GK's, Necrons, Black Templars/Tau and then Tau/Black Templars.

Completely without basis.

There's been zero suggestions of a BT codex any time soon.

Yeah I think that we are more likely to get Sisters mid to late next year or early 2012 depednign on the overall release schedule and how long it takes for the final scuplts. Ironically Sisters are having a problem with their clothes (sleeves) and hair according to Jes. Lol. I can't take credit for that little joke as someone on B&C put that one together.

Heard its: GK, SOB, Necron, Tau.

it'll be a space marine codex next i think ,cas in 5th edition at the moment i think there is a pattern because we had spacemarines,imperial guard,space wolves (ftw ), tyranids, blood angels, then DE. But its only a guess

Wolflord Grimnar wrote:it'll be a space marine codex next i think ,cas in 5th edition at the moment i think there is a pattern because we had spacemarines,imperial guard,space wolves (ftw ), tyranids, blood angels, then DE. But its only a guess

Then you'd be right as GK are Space Marines.

Bryce-2-Good87 wrote:Heard its: GK, SOB, Necron, Tau.

that seems to be the most reasonable lineup I've seen so far, though 'reasonable' rarely makes an appearance where GW holds sway.

Brother Heinrich wrote:

Bryce-2-Good87 wrote:Heard its: GK, SOB, Necron, Tau.

that seems to be the most reasonable lineup I've seen so far, though 'reasonable' rarely makes an appearance where GW holds sway.

Its probably GK 1st, Necrons next, SoB after them then Tau. It keeps with the Imperial - Xeno - Imperial lineup we've coem to expect. That and Sisters are still needing more work on their minis support that possible lineup. Of course I'm not really in the know. Thats what seems mots likely to me based on what I have read from others who are.

Most signs do NOT point towards SoB after GK...

Yep, considering it's been stated over and over that "Grey Knights are finished as of the release of Dark Eldar; Sisters of Battle have just really begun the model design process and Codex writing".

Really not sure where people are getting the idea that Sisters are anywhere near close to the release of GKs.

Alpharius wrote:Most signs do NOT point towards SoB after GK...

Only if you define "most signs" by "Alpharius' opinion".

Almost every single rumor that comes from a reputable source (instead of some no-name low-level employee) agrees Sisters are coming after Grey Knights, with a xenos codex (probably Necrons, but possibly Tau) between.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:Yep, considering it's been stated over and over that "Grey Knights are finished as of the release of Dark Eldar; Sisters of Battle have just really begun the model design process and Codex writing".

Really not sure where people are getting the idea that Sisters are anywhere near close to the release of GKs.

Sisters were started six months after Grey Knights, not just now.

The initial Codex design process was started "six months after Grey Knights". Despite common thinking, they don't just say "Oh hey, let's do <Army Name Here> today!". Alot of preliminary work goes into it, lots of concept sketches and then looking for how they want the army to actually go.

So no, they were really "started" just now by all reports I've seen. The only real big piece of information we've seen is that Sisters are getting a plastic troop kit done by Goodwin, and him overseeing the production of the line much like Dark Eldar.

No, "right now" they're in the process of finishing up the model design, working out all of the various problems the molds have, etc.

Dark Eldar were in this phase in the summer of this year, as I very clearly remember hearing reports of them having problems with the models in the summer, with people being afraid that meant DE would be pushed back.

Haha, what?

So you're telling me that a line that, was by all reports, completely finished and just waiting for an open release timeframe and a chance to test the waters...

Was still having "the model design process finished"?
Yeah. No.

Kanluwen wrote:Haha, what?

So you're telling me that a line that, was by all reports, completely finished and just waiting for an open release timeframe and a chance to test the waters...

Was still having "the model design process finished"?
Yeah. No.

I very clearly remember hearing reports of them having problems with the models round the summer, with people being afraid that meant DE would be pushed back.

I don't remember any reports of problems with the models in the summer. Links?

@Melissia: We all know that your are keen on seeing SoB updated with a new codex, but dismising what other people say as being wrong without proper justification is a bit glib.
However, I can give you some good news (and justification). While I was on holiday I heard from a GW store manager that the next codex will be GK and that (with the way things are going-his words not mine-) the SoB update would be a few months after. Unfortunately he couldn't divulge a release date; confirm whether SoB will be released before or after another codex; or give much info on either. All it was, was confirmation that it is going to happen soon.

I started to search through the various sites, then I realized that I'm attempting to look through six months of rumors and discussion on the (at the time) possible Dark Eldar codex, many posts of which that actually contained rumors are edited to remove older stuff (for example, the BoLS thread on the subject edited out stuff that was later proven false).

So meh, I don't have a direct source at the moment. I just very clearly remember there being lots of moments when people assumed that the DE codex would be pushed back again.

Melissia wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Most signs do NOT point towards SoB after GK...

Only if you define "most signs" by "Alpharius' opinion".

Almost every single rumor that comes from a reputable source (instead of some no-name low-level employee) agrees Sisters are coming after Grey Knights, with a xenos codex (probably Necrons, but possibly Tau) between.

Am I mis-reading your post, Melissia? You disagreed with Alpharius suggesting SoB are not after GK, then you said after GK comes Necrons or Tau.
Which would preclude SoB from being after GK--unless you are meaning SoB will be any time after GK are released, regardless of codex releases between them, but that is confusing too.

I probably just misread what Alpharius said, then. It happens.

Melissia wrote:I probably just misread what Alpharius said, then. It happens.

Cool beans, I was trying to figure that out. It seems you were both refering to the same sources--which is what I was trying to figure out.

kirsanth wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Most signs do NOT point towards SoB after GK...

Only if you define "most signs" by "Alpharius' opinion".

Almost every single rumor that comes from a reputable source (instead of some no-name low-level employee) agrees Sisters are coming after Grey Knights, with a xenos codex (probably Necrons, but possibly Tau) between.

Am I mis-reading your post, Melissia? You disagreed with Alpharius suggesting SoB are not after GK, then you said after GK comes Necrons or Tau.
Which would preclude SoB from being after GK--unless you are meaning SoB will be any time after GK are released, regardless of codex releases between them, but that is confusing too.

Melissia wrote:I probably just misread what Alpharius said, then. It happens.

Yup!

Melissia wrote:Completely without basis.

Odd comment coming from you.

Melissia wrote:There's been zero suggestions of a BT codex any time soon.

It's the oldest Marine Codex (early 4th Ed Codex) and as GW likes to do Marine releases 1 out of every 2 (or sometimes 3) releases, BT's are the next logical choice for an end of 2011/early 2012 release, with Tau either directly before them or after them. Sorry I didn't mention your precious Sisters Mel, but I figure that army has a lower profile than "Moar Marinez!!!".

H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's the oldest Marine Codex (early 4th Ed Codex) and as GW likes to do Marine releases 1 out of every 2 (or sometimes 3) releases, BT's are the next logical choice for an end of 2011/early 2012 release, with
Tau either directly before them or after them. Sorry I didn't mention your precious Sisters Mel, but I figure that army has a lower profile than "Moar Marinez!!!".

Was that strictly necessary except to antogonize? What Mel said is true more or less. We've heard no rumors of Black Templars that were not proven false to my knowledge and we have heard rumors of Sisters being started about 6 months after GK. GK marines should be enough marines for anybody for awhile I think. Oh and GK are older being from 2003 I think. They could really use the update more I think.

Fostering antagonism is its own reward, andrewm9.

Kanluwen wrote:I don't remember any reports of problems with the models in the summer. Links?

Jes Goodwin said this a few weeks ago

He is still trying to work out how best to tackle plastic Sisters of Battle but they are still being problematic.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/326685.page

Points to a delay of SoB.

Personally, I am not aware of rumours that SoB are next after GK (speculation yes, but not rumours). My guess would be Necrons in May, but that's just a guess.

That "reports of problems with the models" comment was in reference to Melissia's comment of Dark Eldar having issues with the model design process.

The current Grey Knights codex is older than BT. So BT isn't the oldest Marine codex.

The ---Daemonhunter--- Codex isn't a Marine Codex. How do I know that? Because I have an extensive Daemonhunter army yet own not a single Grey Knight (other than the two I use as 'Counts As' Inquisitors in Power Armour w/Psycannons). And Daemonhunters is one of the oldest remaining Codices, along with Necrons and Witch Hunters (and then followed by Black Templar & Tau). Daemon Hunters are being repackaged as "Grey Knights" as the next Codex. After that is likely to be Necrons. After that is anyone's guess. I say it's either going to be Tau (popular army that sells well) or Black Templars (oldest Marine Codex, bring it in line with 5, Marines sell well). I see Sisters being after them.

Given that, from reports, they've only just started on them and appear to be having troubles with the models, I'd suspect that Sisters are a ways off (end of 2011/start of 2012) and not the next Codex after Grey Knights or even Necrons. If I'm wrong, fine, but there's logic behind why I think Tau and BT will be around before the redone Sisters. The former is a popular xeno army and the latter is the oldest Marine Codex in the line. Sisters are neither popular nor Marines.

Any current rumors regarding Black Templars is nothing but wishlisting. Even Harry admitted his own statements were basically taht.

H.B.M.C. wrote:If I'm wrong, fine, but there's logic behind why I think Tau and BT will be around before the redone Sisters. The former is a popular xeno army and the latter is the oldest Marine Codex in the line. Sisters are neither popular nor Marines.

By that reasoning, why not just redo Codex: Space Marines? It's popular and sells well, right?

The Chaos Space Marines are being held back by their atrocious 4th edition codex - fixing that would greatly improve sales. Mechanised SoB would become fully plastic with the addition of even a single kit and a few conversions. Necrons and Grey Knights have similar flaws to be fixed. Compared to those, what will a new Black Templars release bring to the table that the existing model range, 4th edition BT and 5th edition SM codices haven't?

Well, not exactly. Somehow I have my doubts that they'd include heavy weapons options in the Battle Sisters kit, and instead they'd probably make that a separate Retributors kit.

And then there's all the new units that have to be added in for the codex to qualify as a fifth edition one. It needs to double in size at the very least.

Same with Grey Knights and Necrons, too.

AlexHolker wrote:By that reasoning, why not just redo Codex: Space Marines? It's popular and sells well, right?

1. They have a 5th Ed Codex.
2. Why would they re-do something that's already selling well?
3. Re-doing a Codex means they have to spend money on making new models. Why spend money to revamp something that's already selling enough as it is?
4. They'll get one when 6th Ed hits.

AlexHolker wrote:The Chaos Space Marines are being held back by their atrocious 4th edition codex - fixing that would greatly improve sales. Mechanised SoB would become fully plastic with the addition of even a single kit and a few conversions. Necrons and Grey Knights have similar flaws to be fixed. Compared to those, what will a new Black Templars release bring to the table that the existing model range, 4th edition BT and 5th edition SM codices haven't?

Well it will be a Space Wolf/Blood Angel style release, with completely new kits that include Marines (rather than just a frame that goes with the existing kits). It will allow them to add new models to the range, give several more plastic kits using their great sprue technology that has so revitalised the Wolf and Blood Angel lines, and allow them to remove the existing (and unsuccessful) Black Templar conversion kits from the range. They get to update a Codex from early 4th to 5th, and as it's a Space Marine release most of the leg work is already done because of the way the new kits will mesh with the existing kits (no need to do new tanks, etc.). It's a cheap release (a bit like 4th Ed Tau) that generates far more than it takes to create and is easy to justify to the bean-counters up stairs.

I don't disagree that Chaos have an atrocious Codex, but Templars are a far quicker thing to work on than re-doing Chaos to fix all the bs that happened to them. And as I said, Sisters are not a popular army. They are more likely to re-do an old Marine Codex than they are to take the leap of faith (pun not intended) with an army that only exists today because Andy Chambers championed them when he was still around. Their last big leap of faith was Dark Eldar, and that seems to be paying off. That's a good thing. It means they'll take more risks, and the next risk will be the re-do of Necrons. Sisters can be the risk after that, but you don't take risk after risk after risk. You play it safe sometimes. Re-doing a consistently popular xeno race (Tau) and bringing the oldest Marine Codex into line with the Wolf and BA Codices is playing it safe.

Which is nice speculation and all, but it still has no real backing.

If chaos is so bad, why do i seem to lose to it all the time.

Chaos isn't necessarily a bad list. It just lacks the flavour and variety of Codex 3.5. This is the prime reason it gets so much hate.

Actually Chaos Space Marines (I don't say Chaos, because Chaos Daemons is thankfully separate) is a very good list, one of the best and most varied lists that isn't a fifth edition codex...

It may be one of the best, but it isn't really all that varied.

Which, of course, is the biggest 'complaint' against it.

SoB's, IF they are done right, would be a big seller for GW.

It seems that the problems with the plastics will delay it, but they'll get it right eventually, and when they do - look out!

I know my wallet is already cringing in fear at the prospect of plastic Sisters. I have about 150 metal ones "just in case" I dunno, I decide to expand past 5000 points or something, but I would be unable to resist buying at least enough to mix the ratio of metals to plastic in squads to 3:2. Plus better Seraphim would rock.

Sometimes, my wallet cries out in the night. I tell my wife it was the cat.

I second Alpharius on the CSM dex being just dull. The whole thing is just kind of sad in how little you can do with it variety wise. Space marines with spikes and marks of chaos. Whoooo. :( One can't even give characters mutations!

H.B.M.C. wrote:2. Why would they re-do something that's already selling well?
3. Re-doing a Codex means they have to spend money on making new models. Why spend money to revamp something that's already selling enough as it is?

That was my point. Lines that are already selling well (like the Tau and Space Marines) have less room to improve their sales than taking one of the armies that should be selling well and getting rid of the weak links that are stopping them selling well.

And as I said, Sisters are not a popular army. They are more likely to re-do an old Marine Codex than they are to take the leap of faith (pun not intended) with an army that only exists today because Andy Chambers championed them when he was still around.

They've never had so much as a plastic troops choice and cost 30% more than Forgeworld for two-piece metal models from ancient, decaying moulds. Of course they're unpopular. That's why I'm suggesting taking their greatest weakness, and removing it.

AlexHolker wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:2. Why would they re-do something that's already selling well?
3. Re-doing a Codex means they have to spend money on making new models. Why spend money to revamp something that's already selling enough as it is?

That was my point. Lines that are already selling well (like the Tau and Space Marines) have less room to improve their sales than taking one of the armies that should be selling well and getting rid of the weak links that are stopping them selling well.

It will still happen. GW promised that they would up date everything first

GW need to make the models so good that all the die hard sister players who coughed up their hundreds of $ for their metal armies at 10$ a special weapon are prepared to replace them with the gorgeous new models. If they botch it up then it will fail utterly.

As a die hard sister player, I am open minded about if I want to pay a huge amount to replace my metal, but if the models are worth it, I guess I will have no choice :(.

cute-hydra wrote:
GW need to make the models so good that all the die hard sister players who coughed up their hundreds of $ for their metal armies at 10$ a special weapon are prepared to replace them with the gorgeous new models. If they botch it up then it will fail utterly.

I don't think GW will tailor their release schedule (at least for models) to the 30(odd some) of you Die-hard sisters players.

Just to clarify, when would 6th edition actually be DUE (cause by my math it would be late 2013 if not 2014, and they only have, what, 9 books left?)

Current codexes (codi, codices, whatever). Source

5th Edition
Codex ISBN Release Date
Dark Eldar ISBN 978-1-84154-978-1 November 2010
Blood Angels ISBN 978-1-84154-960-6 April 2010
Tyranids ISBN 978-1-84154-951-4 January 2010
Space Wolves ISBN 978-1-84154-010-8 October 2009
Imperial Guard ISBN 978-1-84154-923-1 May 2009
Space Marines ISBN 978-1-84154-894-4 October 2008

4th Edition
Codex ISBN Release Date
Chaos Daemons ISBN 1-84154-8791 May 2008
Orks ISBN 978-1-84154-852-4 January 2008
Chaos Space Marines ISBN 978-1-84154-842-5 September 2007
Dark Angels ISBN 1-84154-807-3 March 2007
Eldar ISBN 1-84154-791-3 November 2006
Tau Empire ISBN 1-84154-712-3 March 2006
Black Templars ISBN 1-84154-685-2 November 2005

3rd Edition
Codex ISBN Release Date
Witch Hunters ISBN 1-84154-485-X April 2004
Daemonhunters ISBN 1-84154-361-6 March 2003
Necrons ISBN 1-84154-190-7 July 2002


If you call Daemonhunters space marines, they're the oldest marine codex by 2 years. I prefer to think of them as part of the Inquisition, though. I'm really hoping that there will be rules for Deathwatch squads/armies. I find the Ordo Xenos to be facinating.

I'm hoping that the priority stays on the 2002-2005 codexes, as they need to most TLC to catch up with the 5th edition latest and greatest.

Chaos Space Marines are a very competitive codex.

CSM is not being held back by a lame duck codex.

Sales of CSM is being help back by a bland low variety codex.

Chaos 3.5 had a huge amount of variety with many popular builds. Chaos 4.0 only has a couple of competitive builds, and there are only a couple of popular builds. CSM has one of the largest selections of available miniatures of any codex, and has the largest conversion possibilities. Besides an unhappy CSM player base that wants more variety GW wants a larger number of CSM figures to sell as every chaos player out there already owns DP, PM, and oblits.

From a marketing stand point it's insane for one of the most popular armies with a huge selection of miniatures to only sell a small chunk of the CSM miniature line. That being said I'm starting to think that CSM will cut ahead of an older codex that is in more need of a new codex.

schadenfreude wrote:Chaos Space Marines are a very competitive codex.

CSM is not being held back by a lame duck codex.

Sales of CSM is being help back by a bland low variety codex.

Chaos 3.5 had a huge amount of variety with many popular builds. Chaos 4.0 only has a couple of competitive builds, and there are only a couple of popular builds. CSM has one of the largest selections of available miniatures of any codex, and has the largest conversion possibilities. Besides an unhappy CSM player base that wants more variety GW wants a larger number of CSM figures to sell as every chaos player out there already owns DP, PM, and oblits.

From a marketing stand point it's insane for one of the most popular armies with a huge selection of miniatures to only sell a small chunk of the CSM miniature line. That being said I'm starting to think that CSM will cut ahead of an older codex that is in more need of a new codex.

Very true. The 4th edition CSM codex isn't bad. However,CSM players got completely spoiled with what was an overpowered codex around the Eye of Terror campaign,and are now complaining about being nerfed back in line with the rest of the pack.

Whatever1 wrote:

Very true. The 4th edition CSM codex isn't bad. However,CSM players got completely spoiled with what was an overpowered codex around the Eye of Terror campaign,and are now complaining about being nerfed back in line with the rest of the pack.

I would agree except Blood Angel and Space Wolf cheese as of late makes their complaints valid again...

Chaos marines should be nasty, powerful and varied, and definitely just as cheesy as any loyalist marine codex...

CT GAMER wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:

Very true. The 4th edition CSM codex isn't bad. However,CSM players got completely spoiled with what was an overpowered codex around the Eye of Terror campaign,and are now complaining about being nerfed back in line with the rest of the pack.

I would agree except Blood Angel and Space Wolf cheese as of late makes their complaints valid again...

Chaos marines should be nasty, powerful and varied

You mean, just like every other army? The CSM players need to quit whining and wait on their codex. Emperor knows that other codices have waited far longer. Geeze, with all of the whining about the CSM codex you'd think it was an image of hte antichrist making out with a severely overweight Rosie O'donnel which had a zombie arm that was throwing poo at you.

Melissia wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:

Very true. The 4th edition CSM codex isn't bad. However,CSM players got completely spoiled with what was an overpowered codex around the Eye of Terror campaign,and are now complaining about being nerfed back in line with the rest of the pack.

I would agree except Blood Angel and Space Wolf cheese as of late makes their complaints valid again...

Chaos marines should be nasty, powerful and varied

You mean, just like every other army? The CSM players need to quit whining and wait on their codex. Emperor knows that other codices have waited far longer. Geeze, with all of the whining about the CSM codex you'd think it was an image of hte antichrist making out with a severely overweight Rosie O'donnel which had a zombie arm that was throwing poo at you.

I don't care how long they wait (I don't play chaos), but I think that the fluff demands that chaos be a powerful, varied codex that can accurately and appropriately represent the various chaos factions and powers and not just be "marines with spikes".

Heck I think the major chaos legions should have their own codexes, but whatever...

Melissia wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:

Very true. The 4th edition CSM codex isn't bad. However,CSM players got completely spoiled with what was an overpowered codex around the Eye of Terror campaign,and are now complaining about being nerfed back in line with the rest of the pack.

I would agree except Blood Angel and Space Wolf cheese as of late makes their complaints valid again...

Chaos marines should be nasty, powerful and varied

You mean, just like every other army? The CSM players need to quit whining and wait on their codex. Emperor knows that other codices have waited far longer. Geeze, with all of the whining about the CSM codex you'd think it was an image of hte antichrist making out with a severely overweight Rosie O'donnel which had a zombie arm that was throwing poo at you.

ROFLMAO

Melissia wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:

Very true. The 4th edition CSM codex isn't bad. However,CSM players got completely spoiled with what was an overpowered codex around the Eye of Terror campaign,and are now complaining about being nerfed back in line with the rest of the pack.

I would agree except Blood Angel and Space Wolf cheese as of late makes their complaints valid again...

Chaos marines should be nasty, powerful and varied

You mean, just like every other army? The CSM players need to quit whining and wait on their codex. Emperor knows that other codices have waited far longer. Geeze, with all of the whining about the CSM codex you'd think it was an image of hte antichrist making out with a severely overweight Rosie O'donnel which had a zombie arm that was throwing poo at you.

Can I just point out, as a Chaos player, not all of us CSM players are whining , only satisfied if we receive a new codex every week, each more powerful than the last and able to effortlessly steamroll every other faction at the same time with our selection of 9000 units. It's just that you're going to notice the complainers more because, well, complainers tend to be highly vocal.

I for one think the current codex, while a little flavourless, is more than respectable in every other area of concern. Personally, I'd like to see the Necrons get an update sooner than most and I don't even play them, I just feel sorry for our one gamer who does!

I'm kind of bummed that it will be JUST Grey Knights, I really liked the diversity of the Daemonhunters books. I liked the idea of building a Radical Ordo Malleus army.

I don't care about the 'competitiveness' of the CSM codex and neither do I care about having a new and shiny codex with lots of spangly new rules and units.

What I do care about, is being able to field my Death Guard and World Eaters armies as if they actually were such rather than slightly naughty generic Space Marines - I want my fluff, dammit!

I suspect I am not alone either. I'm not saying that CSM needs doing right away but maybe GW could redo the CSM codex without necessarily having to invest the time, effort and money into redoing the entire model line and bringing out new stuff when it isn't needed.

filbert wrote:

What I do care about, is being able to field my Death Guard and World Eaters armies as if they actually were such rather than slightly naughty generic Space Marines - I want my fluff, dammit!

That is the "accurately and appropriately" part I was alluding to...

GMR wrote:Can I just point out, as a Chaos player, not all of us CSM players are whining , only satisfied if we receive a new codex every week, each more powerful than the last and able to effortlessly steamroll every other faction at the same time with our selection of 9000 units. It's just that you're going to notice the complainers more because, well, complainers tend to be highly vocal.

Yes, I know not all of them are, nor did I say such a thing.

Rather, the problem is that, moreso than every other forum I've read, Dakka has an inordinate amount of whiny CSM players, and they've only started to whine more as 5th edition goes along. Frankly it's getting obnoxious-- even I don't complain about Sisters being outdated as much as these people whine about CSMs, and given the age of the C:WH codex and the models I have to use to play it I have far more reason to do so than any CSM player.

And not so infrequently these are the same people that claimed that I should stop talking about Sisters so much, which is more than a little hypocritical.

I just want my chainaxes back I mean really

Melissia wrote:

GMR wrote:Can I just point out, as a Chaos player, not all of us CSM players are whining , only satisfied if we receive a new codex every week, each more powerful than the last and able to effortlessly steamroll every other faction at the same time with our selection of 9000 units. It's just that you're going to notice the complainers more because, well, complainers tend to be highly vocal.

Yes, I know not all of them are, nor did I say such a thing.

Rather, the problem is that, moreso than every other forum I've read, Dakka has an inordinate amount of whiny CSM players, and they've only started to whine more as 5th edition goes along. Frankly it's getting obnoxious-- even I don't complain about Sisters being outdated as much as these people whine about CSMs, and given the age of the C:WH codex and the models I have to use to play it I have far more reason to do so than any CSM player.

And not so infrequently these are the same people that claimed that I should stop talking about Sisters so much, which is more than a little hypocritical.

Apologies, I never meant to say you thought all Chaos players were like that, I just figured I should point out we aren't all that bad. I don't totally disagree with you, I think it's basically just a minor issue about the loss of the Legions that's snowballed into the massive whine fest you see across the forums.

All I can say to my fellow players is this: Yes, it sucks. No it's not the end of the world, we will get another codex. Be thankful you won't have to wait as long Daemonhunters, Witch Hunters, Dark Eldar or Necrons.

And yes Sonofruss, Chainaxes were damn awesome.

Melissia wrote:And not so infrequently these are the same people that claimed that I should stop talking about Sisters so much, which is more than a little hypocritical.

I am not one of those people. But I still think you should quit the nonsense about how the CSM codex is fine, because it seems to me that it's just your hatred of the CSM talking.

CT GAMER wrote:

Melissia wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:

Very true. The 4th edition CSM codex isn't bad. However,CSM players got completely spoiled with what was an overpowered codex around the Eye of Terror campaign,and are now complaining about being nerfed back in line with the rest of the pack.

I would agree except Blood Angel and Space Wolf cheese as of late makes their complaints valid again...

Chaos marines should be nasty, powerful and varied

You mean, just like every other army? The CSM players need to quit whining and wait on their codex. Emperor knows that other codices have waited far longer. Geeze, with all of the whining about the CSM codex you'd think it was an image of hte antichrist making out with a severely overweight Rosie O'donnel which had a zombie arm that was throwing poo at you.

I don't care how long they wait (I don't play chaos), but I think that the fluff demands that chaos be a powerful, varied codex that can accurately and appropriately represent the various chaos factions and powers and not just be "marines with spikes".

Heck I think the major chaos legions should have their own codexes, but whatever...

It's a one-dimensional codex,same as every other 4th edition codex except for Tyranids. The power level of the codices has gone up accross the board in 5th compared to 4th. You can't compare 3rd/4th to 5th when saying you need a buff and/or more variety. Every 3rd/4th 'dex left needs a buff and/or more variety compared to the 5th edition codexes. However,CSM still fares very well against other 3rd/4th edition codices and can be competitive against 5th edition codices with bland power builds,which is why they should be towards the back of the line when it comes to a redux.

As for seperate Chaos Legion books,I'm all for it,provided GW can at some point speed their 40k release schedule up to 4 armies/year.

AlexHolker wrote:

Melissia wrote:And not so infrequently these are the same people that claimed that I should stop talking about Sisters so much, which is more than a little hypocritical.

I am not one of those people. But I still think you should quit the nonsense about how the CSM codex is fine, because it seems to me that it's just your hatred of the CSM talking.

At the end of the day, there will always be an 'older' codex, unless GW decided to release brand new codex'es and models for every army all at the same time. So this arguement will just rotate around endlessly substituting one army for another as they are brought up to date and others not.

Unfortunately one of the universal constants is time, and so we all have just wait until our favourite army is redone. We can then be happy for a month or so until other armys get newer models and we become increasingly disgruntled and like the wonderful circle of life the whole process starts again.

[Insert Elton John clip here]

Melissia wrote:You mean, just like every other army? The CSM players need to quit whining and wait on their codex. Emperor knows that other codices have waited far longer. Geeze, with all of the whining about the CSM codex you'd think it was an image of hte antichrist making out with a severely overweight Rosie O'donnel which had a zombie arm that was throwing poo at you.

So that's all you've got Melissia? No argument of substance, just a hyperbolic strawman to paint all those who dislike the 'Chaos' Codex with the same brush? Because if that’s what you truly believe then it almost makes what I’m about to say pointless, but here goes...

One thing that I (and many here) have maintained since my original Chaos Codex Review is that I couldn’t care less about the power of the book and, in fact, I acknowledge that the list within the 'Chaos' Codex is perfectly serviceable and competitive. What the ‘Chaos’ Codex is though is flavourless. Look at the NetDeck competitive lists – Oblits, Plague Marines, add Lash to taste (if that’s your thing). They’re always the same, or have the same core. No one plays ‘World Eaters’ or ‘Night Lords’ anymore both because these armies do not exist (they’re ‘Counts As’ at best) and because they deviate from the competitive parts of the Chaos Codex. To those that just play Chaos and don’t care, that’s fine I suppose, but for those of us with distinct and separate Chaos armies (like my World Eater, Death Guard, Alpha Legion, Word Bearer and Iron Warrior armies), the ‘Chaos’ Codex was a steel-capped boot kick to the teeth. And that’s before we even look at what happened to our Daemons... *shakes head*

The other mistake you’re probably going to make (assuming you haven’t made it already) is the common assumption that those reminiscing about the 3.5 Chaos Codex are only doing so because they miss the ‘cheese’ of the 4 HS slot Iron Warriors. This is, of course, a load of bullgak, because it implies that the 4th Ed Codex is devoid of equally competitive or ‘broken’ choices, when it clearly has them. As I have said, the current ‘Chaos’ Codex – and yes, every time I write that it will be in quotes, right until the day we get a real Codex again – is perfectly powerful, it’s just boring, and a horrifically insulting book to anyone who enjoys playing the various facets of Chaos. Now there are no facets to Chaos – just a generic spiky Marine list. It’s shocking that you can do better Chaos Legion lists using the Marine and even the Woof/Blood Angel Codices. We want our interesting armies back, and we want playing to the fluff to mean something in-game (Fluff should always be congruous with power, the fact that this 'Chaos' Codex went the opposite route and just made the Legions naught but a paintjob is horrific).

So take your hyperbole elsewhere Melissia. Your own distaste for Chaos as a race in 40K is enough to make your views on their Codex erroneous if not outright suspicious, but please put that brush you wish to paint us all with away and learn that the complaints against the ‘Chaos’ Codex are not as black and white as you may think...

The Decapitator wrote:

Unfortunately one of the universal constants is time,

Einstein disagrees with you. But alas, we still have to wait for our codexes.

Skaven are, by all accounts, not going to be a "major release".

They'll be a supporting release, much like the recent High Elf releases.

Orcs & Goblins are supposed to be the next "major release" for WHFB.

Kanluwen wrote:Orcs & Goblins are supposed to be the next "major release" for WHFB.

Is it a major release (ie. a new Army Book), or just a big 'wave' release with some new plastic minis. If it's the former, I'm surprised O&G are getting a release before Tomb Kings. Are there a lot of really old metal (or metal hybrid) O&G models still in the range?

I kept hearing Tomb kings would be coming next year. I was hoping this was true because I'm waiting for an update of the army I'm interested in before I wade into WHFB waters.

H.B.M.C. wrote:So that's all you've got Melissia? No argument of substance, just a hyperbolic strawman to paint all those who dislike the 'Chaos' Codex with the same brush? Because if that’s what you truly believe then it almost makes what I’m about to say pointless, but here goes...

One thing that I (and many here) have maintained since my original Chaos Codex Review is that I couldn’t care less about the power of the book and, in fact, I acknowledge that the list within the 'Chaos' Codex is perfectly serviceable and competitive. What the ‘Chaos’ Codex is though is flavourless. Look at the NetDeck competitive lists – Oblits, Plague Marines, add Lash to taste (if that’s your thing). They’re always the same, or have the same core. No one plays ‘World Eaters’ or ‘Night Lords’ anymore both because these armies do not exist (they’re ‘Counts As’ at best) and because they deviate from the competitive parts of the Chaos Codex. To those that just play Chaos and don’t care, that’s fine I suppose, but for those of us with distinct and separate Chaos armies (like my World Eater, Death Guard, Alpha Legion, Word Bearer and Iron Warrior armies), the ‘Chaos’ Codex was a steel-capped boot kick to the teeth. And that’s before we even look at what happened to our Daemons... *shakes head*

The other mistake you’re probably going to make (assuming you haven’t made it already) is the common assumption that those reminiscing about the 3.5 Chaos Codex are only doing so because they miss the ‘cheese’ of the 4 HS slot Iron Warriors. This is, of course, a load of bullgak, because it implies that the 4th Ed Codex is devoid of equally competitive or ‘broken’ choices, when it clearly has them. As I have said, the current ‘Chaos’ Codex – and yes, every time I write that it will be in quotes, right until the day we get a real Codex again – is perfectly powerful, it’s just boring, and a horrifically insulting book to anyone who enjoys playing the various facets of Chaos. Now there are no facets to Chaos – just a generic spiky Marine list. It’s shocking that you can do better Chaos Legion lists using the Marine and even the Woof/Blood Angel Codices. We want our interesting armies back, and we want playing to the fluff to mean something in-game (Fluff should always be congruous with power, the fact that this 'Chaos' Codex went the opposite route and just made the Legions naught but a paintjob is horrific).

So take your hyperbole elsewhere Melissia. Your own distaste for Chaos as a race in 40K is enough to make your views on their Codex erroneous if not outright suspicious, but please put that brush you wish to paint us all with away and learn that the complaints against the ‘Chaos’ Codex are not as black and white as you may think...

+1 to this post. You've hit the nail on the head again H.B.M.C.

The logic of lumping all chaos players in one boat (despite claiming to not be doing so), is highly flawed, especially when personal preferences clouding opinions are highly apparent.

That being said and to direct the thread back on topic, I kinda wish GW released more PDF codices (with tweaked rules and point costs) for all of the outdated armies instead of releasing PDF codices for armies shortly due for an update. It would help in the long wait for an update. That being said, I think GW's stance of "both printed and web versions of rules are valid" is more than enough to counter any confusion that may occur.

micahaphone wrote:

The Decapitator wrote:

Unfortunately one of the universal constants is time,

Einstein disagrees with you. But alas, we still have to wait for our codexes.

Well believe me, there can't possibly be any means to travel in time - because if there was then someone would have surely been to find out the EXACT release date for the Grey Knights to stop everyone discussing the possibilities!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Melissia wrote:You mean, just like every other army? The CSM players need to quit whining and wait on their codex. Emperor knows that other codices have waited far longer. Geeze, with all of the whining about the CSM codex you'd think it was an image of hte antichrist making out with a severely overweight Rosie O'donnel which had a zombie arm that was throwing poo at you.

So that's all you've got Melissia? No argument of substance, just a hyperbolic strawman to paint all those who dislike the 'Chaos' Codex with the same brush? Because if that’s what you truly believe then it almost makes what I’m about to say pointless, but here goes...

One thing that I (and many here) have maintained since my original Chaos Codex Review is that I couldn’t care less about the power of the book and, in fact, I acknowledge that the list within the 'Chaos' Codex is perfectly serviceable and competitive. What the ‘Chaos’ Codex is though is flavourless. Look at the NetDeck competitive lists – Oblits, Plague Marines, add Lash to taste (if that’s your thing). They’re always the same, or have the same core. No one plays ‘World Eaters’ or ‘Night Lords’ anymore both because these armies do not exist (they’re ‘Counts As’ at best) and because they deviate from the competitive parts of the Chaos Codex. To those that just play Chaos and don’t care, that’s fine I suppose, but for those of us with distinct and separate Chaos armies (like my World Eater, Death Guard, Alpha Legion, Word Bearer and Iron Warrior armies), the ‘Chaos’ Codex was a steel-capped boot kick to the teeth. And that’s before we even look at what happened to our Daemons... *shakes head*

The other mistake you’re probably going to make (assuming you haven’t made it already) is the common assumption that those reminiscing about the 3.5 Chaos Codex are only doing so because they miss the ‘cheese’ of the 4 HS slot Iron Warriors. This is, of course, a load of bullgak, because it implies that the 4th Ed Codex is devoid of equally competitive or ‘broken’ choices, when it clearly has them. As I have said, the current ‘Chaos’ Codex – and yes, every time I write that it will be in quotes, right until the day we get a real Codex again – is perfectly powerful, it’s just boring, and a horrifically insulting book to anyone who enjoys playing the various facets of Chaos. Now there are no facets to Chaos – just a generic spiky Marine list. It’s shocking that you can do better Chaos Legion lists using the Marine and even the Woof/Blood Angel Codices. We want our interesting armies back, and we want playing to the fluff to mean something in-game (Fluff should always be congruous with power, the fact that this 'Chaos' Codex went the opposite route and just made the Legions naught but a paintjob is horrific).

So take your hyperbole elsewhere Melissia. Your own distaste for Chaos as a race in 40K is enough to make your views on their Codex erroneous if not outright suspicious, but please put that brush you wish to paint us all with away and learn that the complaints against the ‘Chaos’ Codex are not as black and white as you may think...

+1 from me as well, Exactly why I am discontent with the current CSM dex.

candy.man wrote:The logic of lumping all chaos players in one boat (despite claiming to not be doing so), is highly flawed, especially when personal preferences clouding opinions are highly apparent.

Kinda like how GW lumped all of the Choas Daemons into one boat?

I think it's pretty clear right now that GW's intentions are to keep the "all Chaos is one Chaos" approach that they introduced into both WH settings - most notably in the Daemons Codex and Army Book. Given that, when they do finally release the next CSM codex, I think it's safe to say that for the time being the legions aren't coming back.

candy.man wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:So that's all you've got Melissia? No argument of substance, just a hyperbolic strawman to paint all those who dislike the 'Chaos' Codex with the same brush? Because if that’s what you truly believe then it almost makes what I’m about to say pointless, but here goes...

One thing that I (and many here) have maintained since my original Chaos Codex Review is that I couldn’t care less about the power of the book and, in fact, I acknowledge that the list within the 'Chaos' Codex is perfectly serviceable and competitive. What the ‘Chaos’ Codex is though is flavourless. Look at the NetDeck competitive lists – Oblits, Plague Marines, add Lash to taste (if that’s your thing). They’re always the same, or have the same core. No one plays ‘World Eaters’ or ‘Night Lords’ anymore both because these armies do not exist (they’re ‘Counts As’ at best) and because they deviate from the competitive parts of the Chaos Codex. To those that just play Chaos and don’t care, that’s fine I suppose, but for those of us with distinct and separate Chaos armies (like my World Eater, Death Guard, Alpha Legion, Word Bearer and Iron Warrior armies), the ‘Chaos’ Codex was a steel-capped boot kick to the teeth. And that’s before we even look at what happened to our Daemons... *shakes head*

The other mistake you’re probably going to make (assuming you haven’t made it already) is the common assumption that those reminiscing about the 3.5 Chaos Codex are only doing so because they miss the ‘cheese’ of the 4 HS slot Iron Warriors. This is, of course, a load of bullgak, because it implies that the 4th Ed Codex is devoid of equally competitive or ‘broken’ choices, when it clearly has them. As I have said, the current ‘Chaos’ Codex – and yes, every time I write that it will be in quotes, right until the day we get a real Codex again – is perfectly powerful, it’s just boring, and a horrifically insulting book to anyone who enjoys playing the various facets of Chaos. Now there are no facets to Chaos – just a generic spiky Marine list. It’s shocking that you can do better Chaos Legion lists using the Marine and even the Woof/Blood Angel Codices. We want our interesting armies back, and we want playing to the fluff to mean something in-game (Fluff should always be congruous with power, the fact that this 'Chaos' Codex went the opposite route and just made the Legions naught but a paintjob is horrific).

So take your hyperbole elsewhere Melissia. Your own distaste for Chaos as a race in 40K is enough to make your views on their Codex erroneous if not outright suspicious, but please put that brush you wish to paint us all with away and learn that the complaints against the ‘Chaos’ Codex are not as black and white as you may think...

+1 to this post. You've hit the nail on the head again H.B.M.C.

The logic of lumping all chaos players in one boat (despite claiming to not be doing so), is highly flawed, especially when personal preferences clouding opinions are highly apparent.

That being said and to direct the thread back on topic, I kinda wish GW released more PDF codices (with tweaked rules and point costs) for all of the outdated armies instead of releasing PDF codices for armies shortly due for an update. It would help in the long wait for an update. That being said, I think GW's stance of "both printed and web versions of rules are valid" is more than enough to counter any confusion that may occur.

The issue with this approach is: GW doesn't make money from this. It would end up being a lot of work being slowly released, needing constant reworking and requiring consistent errata. It would be confusing for early players. Not to mention the pain of having to print and always carry around with them the most current edition of those adjusted values and erratas because not everyone will accept your word.

It would end up being a cumbersome system. Sure it would aid some players with their fluff armies if they wished to play them but it is unrealistic to expect this sort of charity from GW.

As a real example: I'd love to play a Farsight Enclave force, but all i'm getting is a character entry saying: you can't take X or Y, you are limited to max 1 of Z and you must take at least 1 unit of 'blah'. Playing O'Shovah contains no uniqueness from any other Tau list apart from that you'll be the only player in crutches because you've gone and shot yourself in the foot before the battle's even begun. A mini codex with adjusted point values would be fantastic, with new options and allowing for new strategies, however it's a pipe dream.

As for those believing this issue will be fixed with a new codex release next year...I am doubtful of any supreme revelation by GW on this matter...

Chaos should be 5 'Codexs, or one VERY big 'dex.

There should be 5 distinctive army lists.

1 each for the major Chaos gods, and a good, solid undivided list.

I'll take solace in the fact that it wasn't me who started the 'Chaos' Codex discussion this time. With that said...

Ehsteve wrote:The issue with this approach is: GW doesn't make money from this. It would end up being a lot of work being slowly released, needing constant reworking and requiring consistent errata. It would be confusing for early players. Not to mention the pain of having to print and always carry around with them the most current edition of those adjusted values and erratas because not everyone will accept your word.

False Dilemma.

Chaos requires no more than 2 books (ok, 3 if you must keep Daemons in their own little bubble). There are no issues with errata, no issues with carrying 'current' rules - certainly not any more than there is not with any Codex - a Vanilla and a Legions book (plus Daemons) would do fine. Using the 5th Ed design paradigm of "Special Character Uber Alles" you could easily represent the Undivided Legions via Special Characters and the army modifications they give, and the Legions book would provide rules for fielding the specific armies from the four Cult lists. It could even be as simple:

Chaos Unit X - Y Points Per Model
+A for Mark of Khorne
+B for Mark of Tzeentch
+C for Mark of Nurgle
+D for Mark of Slaanesh

And the unit has its generic rules, and then a list of what happens when given a Mark. There are many ways to take the 3.5 Ed Codex and streamline it. 'Icons' are not the option.

And it wouldn't 'make no money', it would expand the reasons to buy more models, and create new markets.

Ehsteve wrote:It would end up being a cumbersome system. Sure it would aid some players with their fluff armies if they wished to play them but it is unrealistic to expect this sort of charity from GW.

Hasty Generalisation.

There's nothing to suggest that it would be 'cumbersome'.

Ehsteve wrote:As a real example: I'd love to play a Farsight Enclave force, but all i'm getting is a character entry saying: you can't take X or Y, you are limited to max 1 of Z and you must take at least 1 unit of 'blah'. Playing O'Shovah contains no uniqueness from any other Tau list apart from that you'll be the only player in crutches because you've gone and shot yourself in the foot before the battle's even begun. A mini codex with adjusted point values would be fantastic, with new options and allowing for new strategies, however it's a pipe dream.

False Comparison (and certainly not 'real example').

The Tau Codex is a 4th Ed Codex. Were there ever to be a 5th Ed Codex (and it seems we're not far off in that regard), there is every possibility that Farsight would be re-worked to fit the 5th Ed paradigm, making him a fully fledged Special Character with his own set of beneficial army-altering rules. If you want a 'real' comparison, compare any Codex since 5th Ed Marines (hell, even Daemons, which was 4th, but written for 5th).

With a suite of Undivided Special Characters that add flavourful rules to your standard vanilla Chaos force, instantly you can play various different Undivided Legions without the need for ‘cumbersome’ sub-lists or additional Codices. It would be like the Marine Codex, where someone who wants to play White Scars can play a distinctly White Scar army using Khan’s special rules. The same could be done with any of the Undivided Legions (eg. if ‘Chaos Cultists’ were a cheap-but-pathetic non-scoring non-FOC unit for regular Chaos armies, an army that takes the Alpha Legion special character could count them as Scoring, and certain units could get Outflank/Infiltration, and so on). It’s not difficult.

Your problem ehsteve is that you’re Tau-centric. You keep trying to apply (and magnify) the problems with the current Tau Codex and apply its design philosophy to possible future Codices (and worse, use its deficiencies as a reason why modern Codices shouldn’t or can’t have things). This is a bad methodology because, as I have said, the Tau Codex is from a different time. Codices do not work that way now, and when the new Tau Codex is done you’ll see why. The only real comparisons that we can make are ones based upon the more recent Codices.

[Aside: I know that I’ve talked in the past about my disdain for the way GW handle’s special characters, and how I hate the idea that if you want to play a Salamander army that isn’t just ‘Counts As’ Ultramarines you have to bring Vulkan, and if you want to bring a Raven Guard army that isn’t ‘Counts As’ (etc.), you have to bring Shrike and so on. I would never make a Chaos Codex where Special Characters were required to alter your army – if you wanted to play Word Bearers or Iron Warriors you shouldn’t need to bring Wordy McDark Apostle Bearers or Smithy Ironwarriorson – you should just play Word Bearers or Iron Warriors. But that’s not the way GW does it these days, so making suggestions using the way I’d do the Codex is useless. Suggesting ways in which Chaos could be restored and revitalised using the design methods GW is using is far more helpful.]

Ehsteve wrote:As for those believing this issue will be fixed with a new codex release next year...I am doubtful of any supreme revelation by GW on this matter...

I doubt a new Chaos Codex is happening anytime soon either, which is why I’m surprised it even came up.

My argument was not regarding GW making new codecies for Chaos. The issue I might have with this now that it has been mentioned is that you're now coercing Choas players into purchasing 2 codecies instead of just 1 with all the rules, and each would have to be standalone or else your are FORCING players to buy both. What makes Chaos players so special in that they have to buy 2 codecies in order to have all the options?

Going back to my first point:

My argument was purely against .pdf versions being released, seeing as so far errata updates are sporadic in nature, and you would always have to be sure you have the latest edition of each pdf, both errata and Chaos divisions with points adjustments.

The easiest way to fix this would be to have a simple one page per division solution in the next codex after unit entries detailing the purely mechanical aspect.

Each page would detail what units can and cannot be taken if you choose to take a particular god and if needed, the points adjustments for each unit. if you choose that divison of Chaos. That way you maintain can the regular Khorne vs. Slaneesh and Nurgle vs. Tzeetch system as well as the points modifications.

I am not attempting to introduce a new system here, simply developing an idea which was presented with obvious flaws.

Again, I was not attacking any codex, I was arguing against a system which RELIED on purely .pdf documents. They work well for small things, but nothing of such a large scale. Releasing/producing them is no real benefit to GW as a company, maybe for players, but not GW.

@Ehsteve
To quote H.B.M.C. "False Dilemma".

The flaw in your opinion about PDF updates is that GW rarely does more than 1 PDF codex update per faction so there would be no confusion regarding a “latest update syndrome” scenario. Taking this into account with GW’s stance that both a PDF version and an original printed version are acceptable (example: C: DH), I doubt any issues would arise. There would be no more confusion than say using a codex with forge world add-on rules in IA and the PDF updates for their rules on the web (i.e. there is no confusion). As stated before, it is perfectly legal for one player to use a PDF updated rule set whilst another to use the original written content.

A PDF codex with tweaked rules and point costs simply exist as a way of extending the life and playability of an outdated ruleset during the extensive wait for a new codex. I’d much rather prefer GW release an interim, point cost adjusted PDF codex/errata than release nothing until 2012-2013 when a new Chaos Codex will most likely appear.

The counter claim of confusion caused and extra hassles in printing out a PDF codex is pretty weak in comparison to the benefits it would cause.

Well, the thread already started weak with a demand for general rumours, now it is completely off topic with wishlistings for a new CSM Codex. Maybe it is time to lay this thread to rest.

I agree, although I will reiterate once again that this time it's not my fault. I did not start the 'Chaos' Codex discussion this time.

Or for you guys to make a new thread about a chaos codex.