The FW tank, the LR achilles, is out. Those who were at the UK games day might have seen it next to the raid on kastorel-novem showcase is a cabinet. Here it is:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space-Marine-Tanks/LAND-RAIDER-ACHILLES-COMPLETE-KIT.html

P.S: sorry, my PC won't copy pictures for some reason...

thoughts?

personally? Wow. I know what I want for christmas.

So ... how isnt this just a 95$ land raider? cuz it has a big assault cannon on its front? ... 10 seconds with plasticard could replicate the track skirts exactly so ....

I think that might be a thunderfire cannon. Which will come in very handy.


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but yeah someone with ok conversion skills could probably make one quite easily

What?

This one?

Bucketful of ugly.

Where are the rules for it?

Looks interesting. Where are the rules for it?

There aren't any yet.

It isn't even released yet - won't be until Dec 6th.

Looking at the model though, it seems to lack transport capacity.

The rules are here. As you can see, it's an obnoxiously durable vehicle that will no-sell anything some armies can throw at it.

Warseer has a link to the rules pdf. Here it is - http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/a/achilles.pdf

Among the relevant bits are -

Not affected by the Lance rule; Not affected by the Melta rule; -1 to the die roll when rolling on the damage table.

Curiously enough, while it's available to Vanilla marines, SW, DA, and BT, it is *not* available for BA marines.

Immune to Melta, Immune to Lance. All results are at -1 on the damage chart.

This means it's about twice as durable against Railguns compared with a normal Land Raider, totally immune to destruction by Meltaguns/Dark Lances/Bright Lances, about twice as hard to destroy as a normal Land Raider with Lascannons/Demolisher cannons, etc. Oh, and totally impossible to stop with a glancing hit except by anything with AP1 rolling a 6.

It was not well thought out, unlike most other Forgeworld things. This, the Damocles Drop Pod and the Caestus have really been sort of head scratching next to the rest of FW's offerings for the most part.

That is a very evil Land Raider - I want one. Looks like the only reliable way of standing a chance of killing it is a demolisher/vindicator squadron and hope that big template hits in the middle with strength 10 because melta is going to do feth all. Should be another 50 points IMO

Ed_Bodger wrote:That is a very evil Land Raider - I want one. Looks like the only reliable way of standing a chance of killing it is a demolisher/vindicator squadron and hope that big template hits in the middle with strength 10 because melta is going to do feth all.

Warseer's got a 2+ page thread full of ridiculing the absurdly hard-to-kill nature of this thing. I think my favorite comment was the one observing that if a Sisters army took Excorcists as all three Heavy Support choices, then on average it would take ten turns to kill this thing - assuming that they spend all of that time doing nothing but shooting at it.

Nice model, but certianly not work the price tag.

The tank is hilarious. Such a waste of time.

I would think the way to do it in is through CC. MCs and Chainfists come to mind immediately and Power Fists and Thunder hammers shouldn't be too bad against it either.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:I would think the way to do it in is through CC. MCs and Chainfists come to mind immediately and Power Fists and Thunder hammers shouldn't be too bad against it either.

Pfists and T-hammers, if wielded by S4 models, can do no better than Weapon Destroyed against it. MC's and Chainfists still are only killing it about half as often as they would otherwise, which is a *very* significant reduction in kills.

Then send in Lysander. The -1 is cancelled out by his +1 and he is Str 10.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Then send in Lysander. The -1 is cancelled out by his +1 and he is Str 10.

That's a single 200pt Special Character in one army that people may or may not have that has to get to the thing and successfully land hits and still is about 33% less effective than against a normal land raider. A rather awkward solution. Ironclads would be a good bet if it weren't for the two TL'd, PotMS capable Multimeltas.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The tank is hilarious. Such a waste of time.

Especially given that other then aircraft, Gatling-type rotary cannons almost utterly useless in a fixed mount on a land vehicle.

Warseer's got a 2+ page thread full of ridiculing the absurdly hard-to-kill nature of this thing. I think my favorite comment was the one observing that if a Sisters army took Excorcists as all three Heavy Support choices, then on average it would take ten turns to kill this thing - assuming that they spend all of that time doing nothing but shooting at it.

Link?

If someone took one against me I'd be happy they spent 300 points on a confused mess, and fire at their other units (of which they'll have very few, after wasting 300 points on this paper weight).

Vaktathi wrote:Immune to Melta, Immune to Lance. All results are at -1 on the damage chart.

No, because it would be literally indestructible against some armies.

nickmund wrote:I think that might be a thunderfire cannon.

Which would be a horrible waste of a land raider.

Seriously, it's going to cost at least 300 points, and going to be utterly worthless, like all forgeworld LR variants...

anon/rassilon wrote:Link?

Here. My post Eumerin mentioned is #36.

Ailaros wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Immune to Melta, Immune to Lance. All results are at -1 on the damage chart.

No, because it would be literally indestructible against some armies.

Those are still the rules as they stand ATM.

Ailaros wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Immune to Melta, Immune to Lance. All results are at -1 on the damage chart.

No, because it would be literally indestructible against some armies.

That's exactly what its rules are currently if you look at the PDF forgeworld released for it, and yeah, that's exactly why people have a problem with it, because it *is* almost indestructible against many armies.

It is 300pts, but it's still got a transport capacity and is practically unkillable. FW has lost its way with some of its more recent Space Marine stuff (this, the Caestus, Damocles drop pod)

Ailaros wrote:Seriously, it's going to cost at least 300 points, and going to be utterly worthless, like all forgeworld LR variants...

Are you psychic or something? It does cost 300 points and is utterly worthless, just like all FW LR variants.


Still looks cool though, and gives me yet another vehicle to buy for my "Land Raiders across the Ages" project, where my aim is to own at least one of every Land Raider type ever made.

Meh, just takes 2 squads of broadsides to kill it in a turn, on average.

Shrike325 wrote:Meh, just takes 2 squads of broadsides to kill it in a turn, on average.

Good thinking. I'll go and get some Broadsides for my Necrons, my Guard, my Tyranids and my Chaos armies.

Thanks for finding such a simple and universal solution to the issue of killing this tank.

Shrike325 wrote:Meh, just takes 2 squads of broadsides to kill it in a turn, on average.

You need three squads, not two, to kill it that fast: you need an average of 6.5-7.2 S10 AP1 hits to kill it, which means that even with the Targeting Array you need 8-9 Broadside-turns of shooting to get the job done.

And as has been pointed out, not all armies have entire squads of twin-linked S10 AP1 guns lying around.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Seriously, it's going to cost at least 300 points, and going to be utterly worthless, like all forgeworld LR variants...

Are you psychic or something? It does cost 300 points and is utterly worthless, just like all FW LR variants.

Very impressive - to have predicted it so perfectly, after the information was already posted...

Nothing says he read it before posting. I've seen a few posters here not knowing that the rules even exist.

Right. Better just to assume people haven't read the thread.

Meh. Truthfully, I ain't that fussed.

A TF cannon on a PoTMS chassis is bad, this is true, but that thing, with its -1 to damage results, will suffer 'Weapon Destroyed' results like no tomorrow.

Its capacity? 6 men. 6. Men. Or 3 Terminators. Why are you scared again?

The TL multi-meltas. Yes, they are TL, and yes, they have a 360 degree field of fire between them and even then not all of them can fire at any given period unless the tank remains stationary, which derides from its principal role as a transport. Not to mention the plethora of 'Weapon Destroyed' or 'Vehicle Stunned' this thing will be faced with, rendering 2/3 weapon useless.

My verdict? This thing is worse than a standard LR. Sure, you can't kill it is quickly, but its primarly transport role is reduced significantly for only a slight increment in anti-armour firepower.

Simply put: stop getting your knickers in a twist, this is nothing to be afraid of. Overpriced, underpowered. Tchah, I'd much rather have 2 x Vendettas + extras than a single one of these.

L. Wrex

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:A TF cannon on a PoTMS chassis is bad, this is true, but that thing, with its -1 to damage results, will suffer 'Weapon Destroyed' results like no tomorrow.

That is not how the damage tables work. It will suffer Crew Shaken results like no tomorrow, but it will suffer Weapon Destroyed results no more frequently than any other Land Raider.

Its capacity? 6 men. 6. Men. Or 3 Terminators. Why are you scared again?
...
its principal role as a transport.

Make up your mind, is it principally a transport, or is its transport capacity not worth panicking about (unless you're trying to stop it claiming objectives, of course).

Maybe a substantial Jetbike Council with Spears? It would take a few turns, certainly, but it's a possible solution for Eldar, perhaps.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Simply put: stop getting your knickers in a twist, this is nothing to be afraid of. Overpriced, underpowered. Tchah, I'd much rather have 2 x Vendettas + extras than a single one of these.

Exactly. The only thing this tank has going for it is that it's hard to kill, and who cares about that when you cannot do anything else?

I bet a Deff Rolla could crush this thing in one hit.

All the av14 and immunity to lance/melta won't save you from *gasp*
Some kid wanting to look at your model!!!!!

Rule-wise that looks like a SM version of the Monolith. I love the model tho, it's like the Crusader's more badass big brother.

AlexHolker wrote:
Make up your mind, is it principally a transport, or is its transport capacity not worth panicking about (unless you're trying to stop it claiming objectives, of course).

This right here is the biggest problem with this model. For 300 points plus whatever the cheapest set of troops you can get in your codex are you are essentially guaranteed to capture an objective. The amount of fire power to dislodge this thing would be prohibitive because the entire rest of the army would be getting a free ride, and since troops in a vehicle are nice enough to lean out and capture the objective then hide away again when they get shot at you just have to give up and accept that objective is not yours.

Very stupid question; isn't melta guns (heat-based weapons), bright lances (laser), and dark lances (particle accelerator???) three completely different types of weapons and thus wouldn't it be immune every melta weapon (fusion gun, fusion blaster, and etc) , laser (lascannon, scatter laser and etc) and particle accelerator (ion cannon) in the game?

Jesus that is one angry land raider! I want to convert one for my Iron warriors army now, back to the plotting table...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Simply put: stop getting your knickers in a twist, this is nothing to be afraid of. Overpriced, underpowered. Tchah, I'd much rather have 2 x Vendettas + extras than a single one of these.

Exactly. The only thing this tank has going for it is that it's hard to kill, and who cares about that when you cannot do anything else?

Because you can stick a cheap scoring unit in it and have it sit on an objective being nigh immovable for many armies and it'll always be able to fire at least one gun at something. I can think of plenty of ways to abuse it. The most abuseable things in this game are those that can mitigate damage, not those that can necessarily dish tons of it out (though most things that can mitigate damage can also dish a lot out as well).

Playing a general all-comers Eldar army that isn't built around wraithlords or a seer council I'd probably be playing for a draw, in a KP game that'd be 2 KP's I can probably forget about taking.

Rubberanvil wrote:Very stupid question; isn't melta guns (heat-based weapons), bright lances (laser), and dark lances (particle accelerator???) three completely different types of weapons and thus wouldn't it be immune every melta weapon (fusion gun, fusion blaster, and etc) , laser (lascannon, scatter laser and etc) and particle accelerator (ion cannon) in the game?

It's a cheap stunt by Forgeworld to make this thing ridiculously hard to kill.

Meltas work by melting things (obviously). Lances work by focusing an intense amount of energy on a very tiny point to punch a hole through the armor. Once the lance is through the armor, then it can start disabling all of the fragile bits inside the hull. The two types of weapons are only related in the sense that they use energy to damage things.

I'm not sure what rationale you'd have for negating the melta effect while still allowing general plasma weaponry to work (possibly highly advanced heat sinks with very efficient heat-dumping technologies - but that's REALLY pushing the boundaries of believability when talking about Imperial technology that we've seen so far). But lances are easily explained away with a system that difuses the lance's energy across a wider area (of course, coming up with a believable explanation for how such a system works is a whole 'nother can of worms - one that I don't think GW has ever bothered to address aside from saying "Just because"). Such a system would remove the advantage of the lance while still allowing general laser weaponry to be fully effective in the anti-vehicle role.

personally, this is my verdict:
it's underpriced and broken.
why? it has:
A TF cannon
2 TL multi-meltas
practically indestructible
can fire 2 guns while moving 12"
can carry a captain and command squad.
so...
it'll kill a squad with the TF cannon, drive full-speed into enemy territory, hit opposing walkers/tanks with 2 multi-meltas, and then drop off the captain and command squad, which will then proceed to assault out of the ramp, and kill a surviving squad. And the LR is nigh-indestructible against most armies.
Even if it was the FUgliest model FW has ever made, I would still buy one. (and I think it looks badass)
FW, you have sucessfully made one of the most OP units in the 40K universe. Congratulations.

shrike wrote:can fire 2 guns while moving 12"

Can't actually do that.

shrike wrote:can carry a captain and command squad.
so...
it'll kill a squad with the TF cannon, drive full-speed into enemy territory, hit opposing walkers/tanks with 2 multi-meltas, and then drop off the captain and command squad, which will then proceed to assault out of the ramp, and kill a surviving squad. And the LR is nigh-indestructible against most armies.

It can't fire two weapons if it moves 12". It can fire one - just like any other Land Raider. On top of that, you should note that the Land Raider Achilles is not an assault vehicle. It doesn't even have a forward access point. You have to disembark from the side doors - and you can't move, nor launch an assault, unless you disembarked before the Achilles moved.

shrike wrote:can fire 2 guns while moving 12"

MinMax wrote:Can't actually do that.

It can't fire two weapons if it moves 12".

PotMS.

MinMax wrote:You have to disembark from the side doors - and you can't move, nor launch an assault, unless you disembarked before the Achilles moved.

oh, yeah...oh well. In that case, put a sternguard squad in there

shrike wrote:PotMS.

Which will allow it to fire exactly 1 weapon, if it moves at 12". Cruising speed is no weapons, for a vehicle that isn't fast.

MinMax wrote:

shrike wrote:PotMS.

Which will allow it to fire exactly 1 weapon, if it moves at 12". Cruising speed is no weapons, for a vehicle that isn't fast.

I stand corrected.

MinMax wrote:Which will allow it to fire exactly 1 weapon, if it moves at 12". Cruising speed is no weapons, for a vehicle that isn't fast.

Would the Thunderfire Cannon count as a defensive weapon if the shell detonates underground (making it a S4 weapon)?

AlexHolker wrote:

MinMax wrote:Which will allow it to fire exactly 1 weapon, if it moves at 12". Cruising speed is no weapons, for a vehicle that isn't fast.

Would the Thunderfire Cannon count as a defensive weapon if the shell detonates underground (making it a S4 weapon)?

hmmm...
maybe...

That thing is so fugly and so stupidly hard to kill.

i'd still buy it tho for the rules (and I think it looks awesome)

Eumerin wrote:

I'm not sure what rationale you'd have for negating the melta effect while still allowing general plasma weaponry to work (possibly highly advanced heat sinks with very efficient heat-dumping technologies - but that's REALLY pushing the boundaries of believability when talking about Imperial technology that we've seen so far).

Even with "very efficient heat-dumping technologies " there is still going to be fugliiness at the point of impact, thermal expansion comes to mind. And there the not so little problem of extreme defense against one type of weapon, almost inevitably leave the armor vulernable to other type(s) of weapons; Kinetic energy (bolters, railguns, autocannons, splinter cannons, and etc.), and chemical energy (any high-explosive or equivalent munitions).

Eumerin wrote:But lances are easily explained away with a system that difuses the lance's energy across a wider area (of course, coming up with a believable explanation for how such a system works is a whole 'nother can of worms - one that I don't think GW has ever bothered to address aside from saying "Just because"). Such a system would remove the advantage of the lance while still allowing general laser weaponry to be fully effective in the anti-vehicle role.

O.o Bet I'll be reading a lot of achilles land raiders being killed by IG's lasguns or Swooping Hawks' lasblasters in the future.

I absolutely love the model, I'm going to buy one eventually just to paint. I agree that the immune to melta and lance with -1 to the damage roll is overpowered but it's nice to see that there's something immune to lance/melta spam that's become the norm.

So its a hard to kill thunderfire cannon... with a 6 troop capacity... and sponson mounted multi-meltas. Doesn't seem too nifty to me. Sure, some armys will have a hard time with it... but for 300 pts, low capacity (can't even carry a squad of termis or anything uber killy), can't be used by BA, its just a glorified thunderfire cannon on wheels. Not worth the price tag, and a massive waste of points. It'll be hard as hell to kill, but thats about all it has. Its a Monolith on wheels.

Can you imagine how much damage that thing could do?!
I'm definitely gonna get one for christmas.

Had to update Acrobat reader before reading the rules for it. Isn't there anybody at Forgeworld who at least watched the Military or the History Channel for information on weapons and vehicles? Should have been a varient of the Land Raider Ares with different sponson weapons while keeping the Demoisher cannon if Forgeworld wanted to make another siege land raider. Imho the thunderfire needs a transversable weapon mount (turret, hull or sponson) to reach full potenial.

Rubberanvil wrote:Had to update Acrobat reader before reading the rules for it. Isn't there anybody at Forgeworld who at least watched the Military or the History Channel for information on weapons and vehicles? Should have been a varient of the Land Raider Ares with different sponson weapons while keeping the Demoisher cannon if Forgeworld wanted to make another siege land raider. Imho the thunderfire needs a transversable weapon mount (turret, hull or sponson) to reach full potenial.

Yeah, the TF cannon is OP IMO. They should have either done a demolisher cannon or eradicator nova cannon.

Its forgeworld, its not going in the normal 40k codex without getting serious points/rule changes. I get the feeling this was designed as a kind of space marine super heavy answer its more for apocalypse where the ARE plenty of weapons that can wreak it easily. The model is a bit ugly, but i looks mean.

nevertellmetheodds wrote:Its forgeworld, its not going in the normal 40k codex without getting serious points/rule changes. I get the feeling this was designed as a kind of space marine super heavy answer its more for apocalypse where the ARE plenty of weapons that can wreak it easily. The model is a bit ugly, but i looks mean.

yes- you do looks mean!

Zid wrote:Its a Monolith on wheels.

And we all know how much the monolith sucks, right? So lets give it a pair of twin-linked multimeltas.

I'm in the "this is sort of OP" camp.

Ouze wrote:

Zid wrote:Its a Monolith on wheels.

I'm in the "this is sort of OP" camp.

actually...I'll do a poll.


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That is awesome. Does anyone know if it can be used in a BA army...if so, consider it sold!

Element206 wrote:That is awesome. Does anyone know if it can be used in a BA army...if so, consider it sold!

no- any other MEQ army and it's a yes. could use it apoc. though.

It looks awesome imo, but I confess i like every land raider,
this one looks just more...more.

I'm still building up my army and have no battle experience as yet but from what I've read in 5th ed, most people take vehicles as transports/ for their transport capabilities so if this cannot transport anything, is it likely to be very popular?

It does, however, say that it has a hull mounted thunderfire cannon at the expense of transport capacity. Does that mean you could take out the thunderfire cannon and use it as a transport and that it would still have all the extra toughness? Afterall, it does say it can transport 6 models in the stats. It'd be a pretty awesome transport then and you'd still have two twin linked multi meltas.

ColdSadHungry wrote:I'm still building up my army and have no battle experience as yet but from what I've read in 5th ed, most people take vehicles as transports/ for their transport capabilities so if this cannot transport anything, is it likely to be very popular?

It can transport troops. It just can't transport as many troops as a normal land raider.

It can't even transport as many as a Rhino.

Vaktathi wrote:Because you can stick a cheap scoring unit in it and have it sit on an objective being nigh immovable for many armies and it'll always be able to fire at least one gun at something.

'Cause that's an effective use of a 300 point vehicle.

You really think that someone is going to spend all that time and money on this Land Raider, then spend 300 points in a list just to have it sit on an objective with 6 men inside? Really?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Because you can stick a cheap scoring unit in it and have it sit on an objective being nigh immovable for many armies and it'll always be able to fire at least one gun at something.

'Cause that's an effective use of a 300 point vehicle.

You really think that someone is going to spend all that time and money on this Land Raider, then spend 300 points in a list just to have it sit on an objective with 6 men inside? Really?

Yes, they will, because holding Objectives win you the game. This isn't 4th edition anymore.

Most stupid ridiculous SM release to date, how are armies like Craft world Eldar and the inquisition code's meant to even destroy that thing, and who thought of the fluff and design, it's rediculous ! WHY?

BuFFo wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Because you can stick a cheap scoring unit in it and have it sit on an objective being nigh immovable for many armies and it'll always be able to fire at least one gun at something.

'Cause that's an effective use of a 300 point vehicle.

You really think that someone is going to spend all that time and money on this Land Raider, then spend 300 points in a list just to have it sit on an objective with 6 men inside? Really?

Yes, they will, because holding Objectives win you the game. This isn't 4th edition anymore.

Considering that it can sit there and use its weaponry to full effect, it's certainly far from a bad strategy.

Yeah, I don't like it. Will it kill 300 points worth of enemies? Maybe not, but TF cannons can be damned annoying. Put it on about as unkillable chassis as can be found, with a small scoring unit inside, and I definitely call shenanigans. It has an anti infantry range to beggar all, and no vehicle dares approach? Call it a lack of specialization if you will, I call it a lack of weakness.

Bookwrack wrote:

BuFFo wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Because you can stick a cheap scoring unit in it and have it sit on an objective being nigh immovable for many armies and it'll always be able to fire at least one gun at something.

'Cause that's an effective use of a 300 point vehicle.

You really think that someone is going to spend all that time and money on this Land Raider, then spend 300 points in a list just to have it sit on an objective with 6 men inside? Really?

Yes, they will, because holding Objectives win you the game. This isn't 4th edition anymore.

Considering that it can sit there and use its weaponry to full effect, it's certainly far from a bad strategy.

I would love to have a bunker that just refuses to be dislodged untill 500+points have been thrown at it. I would enjoy it soo much, 'go on roll more dice, death awaits you'

H.B.M.C. wrote:

'Cause that's an effective use of a 300 point vehicle.

You really think that someone is going to spend all that time and money on this Land Raider, then spend 300 points in a list just to have it sit on an objective with 6 men inside? Really?

Um, yes? You've assured that you're going to hold at least one objective, which in C&C will mean your opponent is at best playing for a draw, and in a KP game it means you can essentially deny your opponent up to 3 KP's (achilles plus 5man unit plus attached IC). I don't see what's wrong with that trade at all given the things ability to sit through nearly anything that isn't an S10 AP1 gun with an almost assured chance of living.

Wow, a lot of whining because it's hard to kill.

Solutions:

IG: Vanquisher. It's not immune to the extra penetration dice
Medusa
Powerfist
krak grenades
Laser destroyer (if they're using FW, so can I)

Eldar: already mentioned

SoB: Penitent Engine CC weapon,
Melta torpedo strike,
melta bombs

SM: Melta bombs
Powerfillintheblank
Dreadnought CC weapon

Dark Eldar: run circles around it. or Bend Over.

Orks: so many to choose from...

Tau: railgun

Necrons: Pray for a new codex

CSM: see SM

Nids: see Orks.

=I= White-Wolf wrote:Most stupid ridiculous SM release to date, how are armies like Craft world Eldar and the inquisition code's meant to even destroy that thing, and who thought of the fluff and design, it's rediculous ! WHY?

Simply put? You aren't, you're ment to focus on the (smaller) portion of the rest of his or her army while staying out of its way, which should be simple for Eldar at least.

And, I must admit; the only thing that remotely excites me about this tank is that Minataurs' icon on the front.

BaronIveagh wrote:Wow, a lot of whining because it's hard to kill.

Solutions:

IG: Vanquisher. It's not immune to the extra penetration dice

With a Lascannon will take you on average 16 turns of fire between Vanquisher cannon and Lascannon to take down an Achilles. Almost double what you'd need against a normal Land Raider.

Medusa

About the only reasonable option, however even against two it's about 50/50 whether the achilles can close distance and engage them with MM's or not, more in the achilles favor once Smoke comes into play.

Powerfist
krak grenades

Um, what? It's AV14 all around, krak grenades literally cannot hurt it, IG powerfists are S6 max and even SM S8 powerfists can only glance it on a 6 and the best they can do on a glance is Weapon Destroyed.

Laser destroyer (if they're using FW, so can I)

A single BS3 blast weapon which even if it hits has about a 44% chance to pen and only a 1/6 chance to destroy after that. On average, you'll get one kill result against an Achilles every 31-32 turns.

SoB: Penitent Engine CC weapon

AV11 open topped hideously overpriced coffin that has to get to the achilles without being penetrated by either the 2 TL'd MM's or the 4 shots S6 weapon that can penetrate it.

Melta torpedo strike,

Which you can't really control as you have to designate a terrain piece for it to come in before the game starts, and even if the Achilles strays into that terrain, and gets hit with the hole over the template, it'll take 10-11 shots on average.

melta bombs

Usually not in great quantity, or hideously overpriced on units that can all take them. Even assuming an auto-hit you'll need about 10 to do the job, 20 if hitting on a 4+, 60 if hitting on a 6.

Powerfillintheblank

All those S8 powerfists that can at best glance and take off a gun? Chainfists can do it if there's enough, but that's about the only route through CC that isn't a dread.

Dreadnought CC weapon

If it's an Ironclad it might be a solid option (otherwise even with 3 attacks on a charge against a 6" moving Achilles you're looking at only about a 1/12 chance to kill it, half that of a normal LR) but consider the 2x TL'd MM's on it with PotMS, that dread is likely going to have a rather difficult time making it there.

Dark Eldar: run circles around it. or Bend Over.

If it's sitting on an objective, how do you move it? If it's a KP game, that's 3 KP's an opponent is keeping safe. Oh, and you need 6's on armor pen to even glance it with 95% of the DE AT arsenal just to keep it from shooting.

Orks: so many to choose from...

Shokk Attack Gun rolling insanely well, Warboss Powerklaws, Deffrollas, and Nob Powerklaws on a charge. The only ones of any reasonable value being the Warboss Powerklaw and Deffrollas, which make still make killing the thing very awkward.

Tau: railgun

One gun out of their entire arsenal, which at BS4 still needs 13-14 shots to do (~200% what you'd need to kill a normal Land Raider)


So yes, there are ways to kill it. However the problem is that it's way harder to kill than is reasonable, taking far more effort, pre-planning, and list tailoring than should be expected.

Vaktathi wrote:
With a Lascannon will take you on average 16 turns of fire between Vanquisher cannon and Lascannon to take down an Achilles. Almost double what you'd need against a normal Land Raider.

Well, yesterday's fight with a counts as one had a Vanquisher with Pask mop the floor with it, (which is my usual Vanq loadout) so... not buying this argument.

Vaktathi wrote:
About the only reasonable option, however even against two it's about 50/50 whether the achilles can close distance and engage them with MM's or not, more in the achilles favor once Smoke comes into play.

Use a Griffon to site them in. And how is a Medusa, with shorter range and very similar weapon stats a better option then the Vanq?

Vaktathi wrote:A single BS3 blast weapon which even if it hits has about a 44% chance to pen and only a 1/6 chance to destroy after that. On average, you'll get one kill result against an Achilles every 31-32 turns.

A laser destroyer is not a blast weapon. It's Ord. See new FW FAQ.

Vaktathi wrote: AV11 open topped hideously overpriced coffin that has to get to the achilles without being penetrated by either the 2 TL'd MM's or the 4 shots S6 weapon that can penetrate it.

Yes, charge right at it across open ground without any support and you will get killed. Same as with any other Landraider.

Vaktathi wrote:Which you can't really control as you have to designate a terrain piece for it to come in before the game starts, and even if the Achilles strays into that terrain, and gets hit with the hole over the template, it'll take 10-11 shots on average.

Granted, however, it's not hard to set up situations to force your opponent onto particular pieces of terrain. Particularly since you don't have to reveal which one it is until you use it, IIRC.

Vaktathi wrote:If it's an Ironclad it might be a solid option (otherwise even with 3 attacks on a charge against a 6" moving Achilles you're looking at only about a 1/12 chance to kill it, half that of a normal LR) but consider the 2x TL'd MM's on it with PotMS, that dread is likely going to have a rather difficult time making it there.

Distract it with something (infantry with meltas seems to work even though it's immune) Drop the dread behind it in a lucius pattern drop pod. Assault it on the turn it lands. You should be able to get at least a 'crew stunned' If you can immobilize, it's as good as dead anyway, the dread will tear it apart from the rear.

Vaktathi wrote:If it's sitting on an objective, how do you move it? If it's a KP game, that's 3 KP's an opponent is keeping safe. Oh, and you need 6's on armor pen to even glance it with 95% of the DE AT arsenal just to keep it from shooting.

I meant the dark eldar player, not the land raider owner.

Vaktathi wrote:
Shokk Attack Gun rolling insanely well, Warboss Powerklaws, Deffrollas, and Nob Powerklaws on a charge. The only ones of any reasonable value being the Warboss Powerklaw and Deffrollas, which make still make killing the thing very awkward.

Vaktathi wrote:]One gun out of their entire arsenal, which at BS4 still needs 13-14 shots to do (~200% what you'd need to kill a normal Land Raider)

Well, no one ever said it would be easy!

Vaktathi wrote:
So yes, there are ways to kill it. However the problem is that it's way harder to kill than is reasonable, taking far more effort, pre-planning, and list tailoring than should be expected.

I haven't even had to revise my IG list and killed two counts as ones yesterday. Pask in the Vanq got one, Vendetta squadron got it the second time.

deffrollaz!

BaronIveagh wrote: Wow, a lot of whining because it's hard to kill.

Solutions:

Powerfist

can only glance.

BaronIveagh wrote:krak grenades

Can't even hurt it.

BaronIveagh wrote:Laser destroyer (if they're using FW, so can I)

laser destoyer's apoc. only.

BaronIveagh wrote:SM: Melta bombs

you can only glance (S8) and you need to get close enough.

BaronIveagh wrote:Dreadnought CC weapon

if you survive the 2 TL MMs aimed at you.

BaronIveagh wrote:Dark Eldar: run circles around it. or Bend Over.

pfft. They rely on lance. Not a hope in hell.

BaronIveagh wrote:Orks: so many to choose from...

not really...

I do not think the eldar race literally has a single way of killing this.

I would not allow someone to take this against my armies. This is even dumber than the living metal rule for monoliths-- at least monoliths have the excuse of the army having phase out. I'd literally have to build my list around countering it, as there is only a single way that Sisters can do so.

Melissia wrote:I would not allow someone to take this against my armies. This is even dumber than the living metal rule for monoliths-- at least monoliths have the excuse of the army having phase out.

is that the rule that if the 'lith is destroyed, all the necrons die? (I dunno- never play against them)

Phase out = if a certain percent of Necrons are destroyed, the entire army phases out and loses.


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BaronIveagh wrote:SoB: Penitent Engine CC weapon,
Melta torpedo strike,
melta bombs

Penitent Engines are AV11 open topped. They won't make it into melee with this thing.

Melta torpedos must be targeted to a specific piece of terrain, and as long as the vehicle doesn't enter the terrain they won't be effected.

Melta bombs against a moving vehicle are notoriously unreliable. You only get one attack per model with melta bombs, and except for seraphim-- which are very fragile for their price-- the max per squad you can have is three, and that's only in retinue.

And you actually missed Eviscerators. 6+2d6 allows them the possibility of penetrating, but even then that requires them to, again, get into close combat with the vehicle. Something that Sisters aren't good at.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:
With a Lascannon will take you on average 16 turns of fire between Vanquisher cannon and Lascannon to take down an Achilles. Almost double what you'd need against a normal Land Raider.

Well, yesterday's fight with a counts as one had a Vanquisher with Pask mop the floor with it, (which is my usual Vanq loadout) so... not buying this argument.

Because anecdotes are statistical proof, right.

Also were you trying to say that the Orbital Bombardment and Penitent Engine are good?


Both are pretty bad. Also both have a decent chance of being difficult to control.
Bombardment restricted to terrain and the Engine very easily distracted.

Distracted? Hell, the P.Engine is easy to DESTROY.

It's FA 11, SA 11, RA 10, and open topped. It's weaker than a friggin' Ork Killer Kan.

Well yes I just meant because of Holy Rage it's likely to be running in the wrong direction to begin with.

yeah and the moral of the story is...
the reason FW are more pricey is not that the models are more detailed, or that resin costs more, it's that you pay the extra money to get broken rules!
anyway- the best way of killing this so far is your avatar

Most FW rules aren't broken, so no, that's not it.

One bad example does not damn the entire group in the eyes of a mature, intelligent person.

Melissia wrote:Most FW rules aren't broken, so no, that's not it.

One bad example does not damn the entire group in the eyes of a mature, intelligent person.

what about the hades breaching drill?
(troops choice- 50pts, S10 AP1 large blast when it surfaces, S10 when ramming, 3" meltagun on the front)
or the damocles rhino?
(60pts, orbital bombardment (chapter master one), orbital bombardment (apoc. asset one)).

Both of them are easy to destroy. They're glass cannons.

This one? It's got the cannon down, but it sure as hell ain't glass.

Melissia wrote:Both of them are easy to destroy. They're glass cannons.

This one? It's got the cannon down, but it sure as hell ain't glass.

Because it's not meant to be a glass cannon?

Making a linebreaking siege vehicle a "glass cannon" is stupidity.

And did I ever suggest it should be? No? Then pipe down sparky.

It would be fine if it was costed appropriately. It's not. It would be fine if it wasn't easily able to destroy most things able to counter it. It is.

Melissia wrote:Both of them are easy to destroy. They're glass cannons.

This one? It's got the cannon down, but it sure as hell ain't glass.

That's exactly what you suggested, actually.

300 points is perfectly appropriate for a bloody Heavy Support slot that has the same carrying capacity as a Razorback, an ordnance weapon(which is arguably overcosted in its standard incarnation), and a pair of close-in anti-vehicle weapons.

Kanluwen wrote:That's exactly what you suggested, actually.

No, it is not. You may have read it that way, but you are wrong.

edit: and the TFC certainly isn't overcosted. It's very damned good at what it does, which is destroy hordes and inconvenience/damage vehicles (Through Tremor, which causes vehicles to move as if through dangerous terrain).

shrike wrote:

Melissia wrote:Most FW rules aren't broken, so no, that's not it.

One bad example does not damn the entire group in the eyes of a mature, intelligent person.

what about the hades breaching drill?
(troops choice- 50pts, S10 AP1 large blast when it surfaces, S10 when ramming, 3" meltagun on the front)
or the damocles rhino?
(60pts, orbital bombardment (chapter master one), orbital bombardment (apoc. asset one)).

Melissia wrote:Both of them are easy to destroy. They're glass cannons.

This one? It's got the cannon down, but it sure as hell ain't glass.

yeah- but at 50 and 60pts respectively, they can afford to be destroyed easily. the drill can't be destroyed until it surfaces, and by then it has already reaped a 5" S10 AP1 blast. that can easily kill a 170pt tactical squad for a fraction of the price. The rhino only needs one turn of shooting, and by then it has fired another S10 AP1 5" blast AND set up an orbital bombardment. That can easily kill a few squads in buildings (provided they stay there) and also take out another tactical squad/captain with the chapter master one. way worth the points IMHO.

The Hades is also an example of something that is intended to be used for very specific scenarios and game setups, not general play.

shrike wrote:yeah- but at 50 and 60pts respectively, they can afford to be destroyed easily. the drill can't be destroyed until it surfaces, and by then it has already reaped a 5" S10 AP1 blast. that can easily kill a 170pt tactical squad for a fraction of the price. The rhino only needs one turn of shooting, and by then it has fired another S10 AP1 5" blast AND set up an orbital bombardment. That can easily kill a few squads in buildings (provided they stay there) and also take out another tactical squad/captain with the chapter master one. way worth the points IMHO.

Actually the Drill requires a DK engineer squad to go along with it, which raises it up to 110 points and two slots, which I think is far more reasonable given that it's basically going to die after delivering its S10 attack. The Mawloc is similar, but arguably better due to being T6 with 3+ and 6 wounds. It also pays for it with more points of course.

The Command Rhino you can only ever have one of, and it takes up your second HQ choice. While it is slightly underpriced, again it delivers its payload then dies. And I only recall it having a single orbital bombardment setup, but I'd have to borrow the book again to check so I'll yield that to ya.

n0t_u wrote:

Because anecdotes are statistical proof, right.

"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain


Here' the main problem with this: these statistical analysis are being played out on a flat, featureless plane, one on one, where both parties stand there and pound each other. There is no maneuver, no strategy, and both parties are in range of each other.

Using the same comparison, IG cannot beat SM ever.


and, if the player is using IA rules to take the Achilles, then the Destroyer is an IG heavy support choice for regular 40k, IIRC.

And lets see: BS 4, Str 8, 72" range, 2d6 +1 to penetrate. And I have to roll a 3 or better to keep the target sitting there to get pasted next turn again

or, try this: 9 BS3 twin linked lascannons.

n0t_u wrote:
Also were you trying to say that the Orbital Bombardment and Penitent Engine are good?

I've seen engines kill land raiders before. Player screens them with smoke, terrain, and other vehicles until they are in assualting distance. (it's a pain to set up, but doable.)

Kanluwen wrote:The Hades is also an example of something that is intended to be used for very specific scenarios and game setups, not general play.

The hades can only be bought for another unit, which means it's cost is tied to another unit, and it comes in once and dies. It's a 50pt blast that doesn't adjust BS for scatter that does it's thing once and can be killed after that basically, and the unit it is attached to doesn't get to hide in a transport and you exactly where it is going to come in and when after that so you can take proper countermeasures. Very easy for most armies to deal with. If you've dealt with Ordnance weapons or Mawlocs, you won't have any issues.

That's exactly what you suggested, actually.

300 points is perfectly appropriate for a bloody Heavy Support slot that has the same carrying capacity as a Razorback, an ordnance weapon(which is arguably overcosted in its standard incarnation), and a pair of close-in anti-vehicle weapons.

Not if it can't be killed in the space of an average game for most lists. You're looking at each of its abilities in a vacuum. It's got a 4 shot multi-role blast weapon and two very powerful, medium/short range AT guns (which it will likely have no trouble crossing distances to utilize), and a transport capacity on probably the hardiest non-superheavy platform in the game. It will deny most opponents up to 3 KP's, can force an opponent to play for nothing better than a draw in Capture and Control, and really put the nails on a Seize Ground game. You can't stop it from moving at all unless you immobilize it, it'll always be able to at least fire one weapon as long as it has them (lets be honest, stripping 3 guns off this thing isn't going to be doable in the space of most games) no matter how far it has moved, presents a threat to a wide variety of units with it's diverse weapons loadout, and has pretty good reach with it's hull mounted weapon.

The problem is that it's Ferrmonatic Invulnerability ability is just silly, costing it appropriately is nigh impossible because of it.

Melissia wrote:

shrike wrote:yeah- but at 50 and 60pts respectively, they can afford to be destroyed easily. the drill can't be destroyed until it surfaces, and by then it has already reaped a 5" S10 AP1 blast. that can easily kill a 170pt tactical squad for a fraction of the price. The rhino only needs one turn of shooting, and by then it has fired another S10 AP1 5" blast AND set up an orbital bombardment. That can easily kill a few squads in buildings (provided they stay there) and also take out another tactical squad/captain with the chapter master one. way worth the points IMHO.

two slots

actually, the hades drill doesn't take up a slot. the engineers do.

Melissia wrote:The Command Rhino you can only ever have one of, and it takes up your second HQ choice.

it still can easily kill over 60pts worth.

Let's see...

Wolf Lord
5 Wolf Guard
2x 5 Grey Hunters w/Wolf Guard
3x Achilles Land Raiders


Comes to about 1500 points depending on what upgrades you buy. All of them mounted in the Land Raiders of course. I wonder how many lists that aren't built specifically to beat this could actually do so.

shrike wrote:it still can easily kill over 60pts worth.

So? Just because a model can kill more models than it costs doesn't make it über, see for example the Deathwind Missile.

Melissia wrote:Let's see...

Wolf Lord
5 Wolf Guard
2x 5 Grey Hunters w/Wolf Guard
3x Achilles Land Raiders


Comes to about 1500 points depending on what upgrades you buy. All of them mounted in the Land Raiders of course. I wonder how many lists that aren't built specifically to beat this could actually do so.

hmm... good idea...

Regardless of the rules, I think the model itself is pretty damn ugly. The whole front looks like someone has taken a hammer to a regular LR and gone to town on it.

SilverMK2 wrote:Regardless of the rules, I think the model itself is pretty damn ugly. The whole front looks like someone has taken a hammer to a regular LR and gone to town on it.

I think it looks good. Anyone know what colour that yellow is? (don't just say yellow) ¬_¬ (e.g: sunburst yellow, golden yellow, ect.)

I think it would have looked better if that cannon was on a turret.

Melissia wrote:I think it would have looked better if that cannon was on a turret.

like the TFC mount, but minus the tracks...that would look better...

Was more thinking like the Punisher mount.

The Punisher, despite sucking, looks badass.

Melissia wrote:Was more thinking like the Punisher mount.

The Punisher, despite sucking, looks badass.

I would agree.

Melissia wrote:Was more thinking like the Punisher mount.

The Punisher, despite sucking, looks badass.

yh, I do like the punisher, despite the fact everyone hates it...

SilverMK2 wrote:

Melissia wrote:Was more thinking like the Punisher mount.

The Punisher, despite sucking, looks badass.

I would agree.

Defeats the purpose of the vehicle when you add a turret.

It's a weak spot, something a vehicle like this doesn't want or need.

For feth's sake, they sealed the assault ramp and its compartment specifically for that reason it looks like.

Kanluwen wrote:Defeats the purpose of the vehicle when you add a turret.

It's a weak spot, something a vehicle like this doesn't want or need.

For feth's sake, they sealed the assault ramp and its compartment specifically for that reason it looks like.

Don't get me wrong, I understand why there is no turret. Doesn't mean I have to like how it looks

Can anyone Mathhammer what would happen if I punched this thing in the face with Ghazzy?

Melissia wrote:Let's see...

Wolf Lord
5 Wolf Guard
2x 5 Grey Hunters w/Wolf Guard
3x Achilles Land Raiders


Comes to about 1500 points depending on what upgrades you buy. All of them mounted in the Land Raiders of course. I wonder how many lists that aren't built specifically to beat this could actually do so.

I'm thinking:

IG:

CCS
2xvets (grend, vet missile)
3 valks (LC MRP HB)
3 vendettas (HB)
Marbo


That's (if the math is right) 1485pts with 12 lascannons (9 of which are TL), 12 HBs, 3 MRPS deeps striking to where ever.

chowderhead13 wrote:Can anyone Mathhammer what would happen if I punched this thing in the face with Ghazzy?

with 7 charging attacks, hitting automatically assuming no movement, on average less than 40% chance to kill, or need probably three turns of charges to ensure a kill result. Hitting on 4's, less than 20%, or about 5 charges. Hitting on 6's, you'll need about 15 charges to kill it.

If somebody put this in their army, I would simply not play against their army as I do not plan on tailoring my entire list in order to possibly (but more probably not) take it down.

Vaktathi wrote:

chowderhead13 wrote:Can anyone Mathhammer what would happen if I punched this thing in the face with Ghazzy?

with 7 charging attacks, hitting automatically assuming no movement, on average less than 40% chance to kill, or need probably three turns of charges to ensure a kill result. Hitting on 4's, less than 20%, or about 5 charges. Hitting on 6's, you'll need about 15 charges to kill it.

And thats just beyond silly. Ghaz excels at smashing vehicles, and pretty much anything else as well

Didn't someone on this forum already build a LR with a TFC? As I recall, he built it into a siege shield, instead of the front ramp, and it didn't look like crap. Congrats to forgeworld for making their model look worse than a scratchbuild.

On the killing this thing side of things, what about manticores? You could at least stack some hits on it . . .

KingCracker wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

chowderhead13 wrote:Can anyone Mathhammer what would happen if I punched this thing in the face with Ghazzy?

with 7 charging attacks, hitting automatically assuming no movement, on average less than 40% chance to kill, or need probably three turns of charges to ensure a kill result. Hitting on 4's, less than 20%, or about 5 charges. Hitting on 6's, you'll need about 15 charges to kill it.

And thats just beyond silly. Ghaz excels at smashing vehicles, and pretty much anything else as well

Exactly. Ghazzy is awesome at killing AV14, and yet this massive wedge of cheese comes in and messes with my Ghazzy. Mathhammer this: 10 Nob bikers, on the charge, all PK with a Waaagh! Banner. Let's see how that does.

This thing pretty much eats every anti-tank weapon in the eldar army. I imagine i'll see a rise in fire prisms combining there power for a strength 10 Ap1 shot against this in the future if forced to play against this.

This thing is absurd.....

Exactly. Ghazzy is awesome at killing AV14, and yet this massive wedge of cheese comes in and messes with my Ghazzy. Mathhammer this: 10 Nob bikers, on the charge, all PK with a Waaagh! Banner. Let's see how that does.

Well, the Waagh banner has no bearing on vehicle hits, but assuming a charge to get the extra attacks and Furious Charge bonus, assuming the Achilles is stationary, 700pts of Powerklaw Nob Bikers with 40 S9 attacks will inflict an average of 1.1 kill results (so they should kill it), it it has moved, they have will inflict 0.55 kill results, if it moved over 6", they will inflict 0.1852 kill results, or about 1 every 5.4 turns.

Basically, if it's S9+ and doesn't rely on lance or melta, you're looking at needing 200% more attacks to kill the thing than you would a normal land raider. If it's S8 relying on Lance or Melta, don't bother trying. Even for S10 AP1 guns, you're looking at needing about 50-60% more shots to kill the thing.

Well, considering it's IA only, I guess it's time to break out the Str D weapons.

BaronIveagh wrote:Well, considering it's IA only, I guess it's time to break out the Str D weapons.

Achilles Data Sheet wrote:A Land Raider Achilles is also a Heavy Support choice in a Codex: Space Marines, Codex: Black templars, Codex: Space Wolves or Codex: Dark Angels.

Taken from here: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/a/achilles.pdf

BaronIveagh wrote:Well, considering it's IA only, I guess it's time to break out the Str D weapons.

Just because it is an Imperial Armour unit doesn't mean it's designed for Apocalypse games. It's technically a heavy support choice for normal games where you wouldn't have Superheavies and the like to bring out Str D guns.

The thunderfire cannon isn't really that good....And the multi-meltas don't have good range.... I see no particular threat from it, aside from getting in the way

I will admit, the thunderfire cannon MIGHT be okay at anti-infantry with those blast templates....But then again, maybe not

If this thing really does get into codexii, I sincerely hope it costs more...It's ridiculous.

The threat is the fact that trying to kill it takes a crapton of firepower, but ignoring it means you'll soon end up with 2 multi-meltas in your lines, blowing your tanks up left and right.

It would be fine if, like a Monolith, it could be ignored, but it simply poses too much of a threat if you leave it unchecked.

Avatar 720 wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Well, considering it's IA only, I guess it's time to break out the Str D weapons.

Achilles Data Sheet wrote:A Land Raider Achilles is also a Heavy Support choice in a Codex: Space Marines, Codex: Black templars, Codex: Space Wolves or Codex: Dark Angels.

Taken from here: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/a/achilles.pdf

Yeah, I read it, believe it or not when I played against one yesterday. However, this is being released for an IA book, and I might point out that IA also says that the Thunderbolt is a HS choice for IG and that Chimeras can replace their ML with AC, but I've generally found most places won't let you play with them.

If IA is suddenly tourney legal, I'm going to add some fliers to my regular TT IG army.

Ahh well, at least Blood Angels can't have it...

But, sadly, neither can my Daemonhunters. Poo.

Kanluwen wrote:Defeats the purpose of the vehicle when you add a turret.

I have to agree.

That said, I would have liked to have seen them give some ability to traverse up and down. Right now it's very much a case of "Quick men! Shuffle slight to the left - it can't track us!".

I think it does traverse up and down. The way it's situated very much reminds me of a Sturmtiger, and that had the internals set up so it could traverse up and down, and even had limited horizontal traversal.

I just would've preferred a more centre-line mount and a more obvious ability to angle it upwards - that way it could be equal parts artillery and assault gun.

Samus_aran115 wrote:The thunderfire cannon isn't really that good....

The more people that think this, the happier I am.

I love this tank. The whole "immune to melta" thing seems a bit much, but I suppose that since IG have enjoyed the option in IA for so long it only makes sense that the Emperor's Finest get the same treatment.

Only problem: I had the idea of a TFC-equipped Land Raider about two years ago. Does GW owe me money?

Monster Rain wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:The thunderfire cannon isn't really that good....

The more people that think this, the happier I am.

What I don't understand is how 60">4x3" could ever be 'not really that good', like ever!

ChrisCP wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:The thunderfire cannon isn't really that good....

The more people that think this, the happier I am.

What I don't understand is how 60">4x3" could ever be 'not really that good', like ever!

Nah, the TFC blows.

I read it on the internet.

There is only one thing I like about this abomination...the fact that they finally painted and showed something from a chapter that I thought was forgot, the minotors(might have misspelled the actual chapter name I think it could possible Minotorus.


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Monster Rain wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:The thunderfire cannon isn't really that good....

The more people that think this, the happier I am.

I love this tank. The whole "immune to melta" thing seems a bit much, but I suppose that since IG have enjoyed the option in IA for so long it only makes sense that the Emperor's Finest get the same treatment.

Only problem: I had the idea of a TFC-equipped Land Raider about two years ago. Does GW owe me money?

Well..technically if you had posted it and given them proof, they could owe you something.
But you have to be able to prove that it was you that came up with the idea before they put a patent on it and such.
Not gonna state how I know this since last time i brought it up, no one believed me.

Oh I'm just joking around. I have had the idea of a LR mounted TFC for a while, but I'm not quote crazy enough to harass GW about it.

lol. Was just giving you a heads up just in case you where.

Now back on topic. is there ANYTHING in the chaos force that can stop this? Maybe perhaps a Summoned Daemon? I know nothing about how to play apoc, but want to eventually get into it when finances come around.

Melissia wrote:

MrGiggles wrote:
Well, give that my Orks don't get anything with Melta or Lance, it's rather meh for me.

Actually it still hurts you. Those S10 power klaws go from 1/3rd chance to 1/6th IF they penetrate (which is what, 1/3rd of the time?).

shrike wrote:so thats...1/18th? ouch. And that's IF you hit, so if they move 6" (which they probably will), that's a 1/32nd chance of destroying it. If they move 12"...whoah. that's 1/68th. that would take 11 ghazghkulls to kill. IF they charge. worst-case scenario- if they're stuck in combat, so no charge bonus...14 ghazghkulls.
that mathammer really hurts.
[EDIT]: That's 3150pts spent on killing a 300-point LR that moved 12".

that.


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Miraclefish wrote:Ahh well, at least Blood Angels can't have it...

But, sadly, neither can my Daemonhunters. Poo.

allied.

Samus_aran115 wrote:The thunderfire cannon isn't really that good....And the multi-meltas don't have good range.... I see no particular threat from it, aside from getting in the way

I will admit, the thunderfire cannon MIGHT be okay at anti-infantry with those blast templates....But then again, maybe not

If this thing really does get into codexii, I sincerely hope it costs more...It's ridiculous.

Yeah, that tactic worked fine... when it was artillery... Now it's mounted on a vehicle, no techmarine to bounce bullets off of, and, in a pinch, the machine spirit can pop a round or two out of it, too. It is kind of like a vindicator, people either stay away from it, or they shoot it, either way it becomes a priority target. so all those lascannons, missile launchers, railguns, etc, that used to take out one unit, suddenly become scared and they either move or concentrate fire. if you're not being fired upon by your enemy's uber-weapon, now you may have the chance to take some of them out!

basically unstoppable, unless you have
a) a list specifically designed to do so,
b) shot/charged everything at your dispossal at it. (in which case it would)
a) shrug it all ff and continue
b) laugh that you just spent X turns killing a 300pt unit, and now the rest of your army is slaughtering your men.
lose/lose situation (for you, anyway)

This is the worst model ever. It is totally cracked and defeats the purpose of the game to take an indestructible model.

nice MODEL, bad RULES.

It's not indestructible. No more so than the Monolith which dies all too frequently to things. Yeah, the Achilles is faster. It's also 65 more points.

Monster Rain wrote:It's not indestructible. No more so than the Monolith which dies all too frequently to things. Yeah, the Achilles is faster. It's also 65 more points.

It is also harder to kill, got better weapons and is'nt in an outdated codex.

Monster Rain wrote:It's not indestructible. No more so than the Monolith which dies all too frequently to things. Yeah, the Achilles is faster. It's also 65 more points.

The Achilles is actually significantly more sturdy than the Monolith. A monolith is still vulnerable to immobilization on glances and destruction by S8 Ap1 weapons.

Furthermore, because of -1 modifier, it takes *twice* as many lascannons to take down an Achilles as it does a monolith (72 BS3 lascannons to take down an achilles versus 36 for a Monolith)


So yeah, it *is* significantly more survivable than the monolith.

For significantly higher points.

With far more versatile weaponry and greater threat range, a transport capacity, in an army that can take a lot more armor to support it too.

zadelistol wrote:lol. Was just giving you a heads up just in case you where.

Now back on topic. is there ANYTHING in the chaos force that can stop this? Maybe perhaps a Summoned Daemon? I know nothing about how to play apoc, but want to eventually get into it when finances come around.

Any monstrous creature can kill this thing. It's an unconditional roll of 2d6 againt vehicles. DPs have 5 strength, which means you need to roll at least a 10...It's easier than it sounds when you have 4 attacks

And we all know how easy it is to get a monstrous creature near this especially facing 4 multi-meltas to the face and moving at half the speed.

The monolith can't be glanced to death.

The Particle Whip vs. TFC is pretty situational as well. There is also the fact that the Monolith can transport troops, and nothing supports a monolith better than 1 or two more monoliths.

Monster Rain wrote:The monolith can't be glanced to death.

Neither can this, unless you play games lasting dozens of turns.

rivers64 wrote:And we all know how easy it is to get a monstrous creature near this especially facing TWO multi-meltas to the face and moving at half the speed.

It's not that difficult for a trygon or a winged DP near this thing at all. If you consider what everyone's been saying (That this thing will be a magnet for low damage chart rolls), I don't think you have to worry so much about your monstrous creature.

Also, fixed that for you

just shoot it with a railgun. 1/6 chance it blows up first time

Only way I can think of getting a MC of chaos close is by DS a termie squad with a Termie Lord, have the Termies take the damage and hope that it doesnt move and that on your next turn you get your greater daemon in, wait a turn to move it then assault. But...with how much attention SD get on the field(A lot for me) won't get it close enough to assault before it dies.

Nids are the only race that monstrous creatures could work for.

I think Orks wouldn't have too hard a time with this, between Deff Rollas and Warbosses.

Let alone Ghazkull.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Shrike325 wrote:Meh, just takes 2 squads of broadsides to kill it in a turn, on average.

Good thinking. I'll go and get some Broadsides for my Necrons, my Guard, my Tyranids and my Chaos armies.

Thanks for finding such a simple and universal solution to the issue of killing this tank.

Well mr HMBC, can you find a unit that can kill it that also happens to be in every army? No, I didnt think so.

On a lighter note, LR across the ages? sounds expensive! have you got a terminus ultra?

Monster Rain wrote:I think Orks wouldn't have too hard a time with this, between Deff Rollas and Warbosses.

Let alone Ghazkull.

Already did the math for that a couple pages back. It takes twice as many attacks for Ghazzy to kill this as with a normal LR, likewise Deffrollas. On average, you'll need to hit it with a Deffrolla about 5 times to ensure a single "wrecked" result.

Jaon wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Shrike325 wrote:Meh, just takes 2 squads of broadsides to kill it in a turn, on average.

Good thinking. I'll go and get some Broadsides for my Necrons, my Guard, my Tyranids and my Chaos armies.

Thanks for finding such a simple and universal solution to the issue of killing this tank.

Well mr HMBC, can you find a unit that can kill it that also happens to be in every army? No, I didnt think so.

On a lighter note, LR across the ages? sounds expensive! have you got a terminus ultra?

Isn't that the one with the extra lascannons on it? That thing is so cool

Yeah, but wrecked isn't the only acceptable outcome on the image table.

It takes about the same amount of time to get an "immobilized result" as a wrecked result, and only slightly less for a "weapon destroyed". The vast majority of results are going to boil down to "shaken"

Monster Rain wrote:I think Orks wouldn't have too hard a time with this, between Deff Rollas and Warbosses.

Let alone Ghazkull.

it would take 14 rounds of 'thraka combat to kill this thing.

Again, Wrecked isn't the only acceptable outcome.

what would be?
depends on your gaming style. I, for one, would want it to be dead or dying (immobilised/TFC destroyed)

Vaktathi wrote:It takes about the same amount of time to get an "immobilized result" as a wrecked result, and only slightly less for a "weapon destroyed". The vast majority of results are going to boil down to "shaken"

So? Who cares. Not like you buy that thing it for its guns. And if you'd really do care, just have Cronus ride in it.

But in any case; I don't get all that discussion about "its balanced because you can kill it with X or Y regardless".Thats not really gonna make it balanced (or not). Throwing 5 or 6 Deathrollas, 20 Lascannons, a bucketful of Nid MCs or whatever at a 300 pt. Tank is a VICTORY for the Achilles-player even IF you kill it.

it's a lose/lose. either you kill it by throwing everything at it, in which case the rest of the opponent army in unscathed, or you fail to kill it, and it kills a lot of stuff.

Zweischneid wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:It takes about the same amount of time to get an "immobilized result" as a wrecked result, and only slightly less for a "weapon destroyed". The vast majority of results are going to boil down to "shaken"

So? Who cares. Not like you buy that thing it for its guns. And if you'd really do care, just have Cronus ride in it.

That was kinda my point...

it look ridiculously stupid

It really does. IMO this is the worst model FW has ever released.

rivers64 wrote:It really does. IMO this is the worst model FW has ever released.

Really? That's really your opinion of the model? Why do you think that, dare I ask?

Well, the model is ugly and it is unbeatable. Not really sure what could be worse, but I have not done much with forgeworld so granted they may have released something worse that I simply don't know about.

In apocalypse I wouldn't mind so much. My comments are all for normal games.

yeah, the indented "ex"-ramp looks like it did drive too fast against something with its ubar armor. Combined with the imo ugly TC ... Any other LR Kit (and also the standard) looks better then this

I think the armour looks good. Looks more armoured. suits it. the TFC looks badass IMO.