Echoing the sentiments on the head, and both arms.
Can't say I'm a fan of either head, so a headswap for sure. The volkite feels like it should be pointing out from the body, not inwards. The sword's gotta come down from that position.
Not my favourite, but it's one of the few times I've flat out not enjoyed a model lately.
That crest in particular is horrendous on either version (the helmetless one just happens to be worse). That and the arm are an easy enough fix but how the vanilla posing got past the design approval is beyond me.
New Praetor looks better than a first one with the exception of heads, which are horrible both. Hopefully mentioned 'heads' options will give at least one that could be used.
Tim the Biovore wrote: I find the "I have a sword" pose is a bit more tolerable when his head is positioned to make it look like he's signalling troops rather than waving it at the enemy
When placed side to side like this, the Traitors' is looking chic and the loyalist is looking granpa derp
Dominion Zephon is way superior to this yellow abomination in terms of pose.
But if the kit comes with both models, there might be cool kitbash opportunities. Those street sweaper brushes gotta go tho, I'll snip em right the flock off on everything.
Not a fan of either Both suffer from random purposeless bling that distracts from the potential good details of the models. And the less I say about the cyber plume crest the better. I understand that it may be that the beaky beak may come off separately and that it likely is attached to the back of the helmet in that case (unlike previous examples of helmets)... but that's not the first impression it makes IMO. These are two big misses for me personally unlike many recent FW characters and the plastic Fafnir.
Minis good and the crest on the bare head is peak Warhammer. The only problem is the sword arm looks cramped and should be out to the side. Not a fan of the holes in the sword either and feel it would have been a really nice classic sword otherwise but that's just personal taste.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: I knew the Imperial Fists were famous for their fortifications but, until seeing Fafnir Rann and this new chap, I didn’t know they were also renowned for their magnificent beards.
What are beards if not fortifications for your face?
Plumes are bad enough but I'm really done with the giant ponytails !! Do you think Ragnar and Abaddon have sleepovers where they brush each others 5-foot pony tails half the night as they share gossip ? :-/
Boringstuff wrote: Yes, but infantry mounted weapons will always be weaker/shorter ranged than non-infantry weapons. Infantry is also easier to destory in seige scenarios due to the shorter range.
Sure I think the rapier weapons are fitting for seige stuff as they are small enough to be manueaverable, but able to mount heavier weapons.
As for the Tyrants, I just wish they made them carrying some kind of two-handed heavy weapon (i.e. near rapier grade) rather than back-mounted missile launchers (which is hardly unique in 30k/40k).
Sometimes I wonder if using DG rules for the chem flamers would be a better fluff choice then running IW rules.
Lascannons are the same range on every single unit in the game.
Tyrant Siege are one of the two units to have back-mounted missile launchers in HH, the other being a direct copy of them but Ultramarines (that is specifically stated as such in the Fulementaris background BTW).
IW aren't overly into chemical weapons though since they (again) don't break fortresses.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Havocs are not included in the leaks so far, so it's up in the air if they're even a unit anymore.
The leaks are apparently up to two-year-old play testing books, the EB units are all going to 2.0 and the No Model No Rules policy doesn't apply in this situation as there are many units that have already been "leaked" that don't follow this policy. I'm erring on the side of the rumours aren't true.
The model itself is... fine, but my god every time I see a IF, it amplifies the parts I like least about this new HH art style. They yellows make it all look just so.... plastic? Enameled? Glossy? Waxy? I'm not sure what to call it but Fafnir had it as well and it just doesn't look good to me. It's kind of there on the SoH guy, but it's nowhere nearly as obvious.
These things are all super subjective aren't they.
I guess there is a particular style of design that has been implemented, which you either like or don't like.
For me, it definitely feels very 'modern 40k' or 'modern AoS' with a very busy design, lots of accessories, not a natural resting place for the eye because there is so much taking place all over the miniature. An explosion of sculpting detail that is impressive technically, as a sculpt, but feels OTT.
Are people realizing that the new Horus Heresy has chosen a look? In retrospect its going to become clear that the first praetor we saw is very much in line with how the designs of the Horus Heresy are.
Hm. Give him a different helmet, swap the belly eagle for a big Horus eye, and change the sword to a halberd, and I could see it as a decent SoH character.
I'd definitely like an article where both minis are painted in different Legion schemes to see how they work. Maybe even some tinkering with bits so they'd feel more Legion specific.
GW said we get all the April previews of Miniatures which will be 4 previews. On the teased box content, we had two Praetors, the MkVI Squad and the Spartan, which are 4 things. But we had the first Praetor and the tactical squad in the same week, so all four kinds of miniatures would be covered in 3 week.
What will they preview in week 4? Is there something the leaks didn't showed?
GW said we get all the April previews of Miniatures which will be 4 previews. On the teased box content, we had two Praetors, the MkVI Squad and the Spartan, which are 4 things. But we had the first Praetor and the tactical squad in the same week, so all four kinds of miniatures are covered in 3 week.
What will they preview in week 4? Is there something the leaks didn't showed?
Awful head. Looks like they were designing a psychic hood for Librarian and the CAD files got mixed up along the way. The crest especially is bafflingly bad.
Pose is awkward but looks a bit more "Follow meeeee!" in the video so might just be the angle.
Eavy Metal paintjob is as soulless as ever and not even the attempt at weathering saved it.
HOW!?
That plastic contemptor is hands down the most important release GW will have this year. Unless they put out a plastic Leviathan, then... hard choices will have to be made.
I honestly don't get people who look at these minis and complain about them.
I know right? It’s almost as if different people like different things …
More like some people are contrarians and/or killjoys who actively look for things to complain about, or just straight up forget about the "different people" bit entirely and nitpick minor details on the "trees" which are not to their specific personal liking instead of appreciating the "forest" for what it is - with the implication being that if it doesn't check all the boxes in terms of their own personal tastes and preferences then it must be utter gak.
Take a look through the comments, theres a fine difference between "I'm not a fan"/subjective phrasing used by some, and "this is absolute gak"/objective phrasing used by others. "Whose idea was it to give the helmetless version a mohawk????" (for example) - Why, probably someone who thought it looked cool, like I do. But I note you aren't calling *them* to task over a pretty objective statement that a thing that some people like must be bad. Funny that.
I think the head itself is good. It's just the mohawk bit that looks really strange. We haven't had anything like that before (that I know of) in 40k, and since they market it as as "generic" praetor, it seems a weird choice for someone who runs Night Lords, or Iron Warriors, or Iron Hands. I said it on the previous page, but it looks like its something from AOS. The stormcast have a few bare heads that have weird mohawk/ponytails, so it's not my favorite thing to see added to a praetor
Obviously, it'll be easy enough to clip off, but its still a weird choice.
I don't like my Marines to be helmetless so I'm already biased.
The rest of the model though? Pretty decent overall, maybe even good. Not super blingy, has the ever rare "melee weapon on right arm", and the pose is pretty neutral.
AdmiralRon wrote: I'm planning on doing a headswap and possibly a different right arm, because my god that "holding the sword aloft" pose he has right now is awkward looking.
I honestly don't get people who look at these minis and complain about them.
I know right? It’s almost as if different people like different things …
More like some people are contrarians and/or killjoys who actively look for things to complain about, or just straight up forget about the "different people" bit entirely and nitpick minor details on the "trees" which are not to their specific personal liking instead of appreciating the "forest" for what it is - with the implication being that if it doesn't check all the boxes in terms of their own personal tastes and preferences then it must be utter gak.
Take a look through the comments, theres a fine difference between "I'm not a fan"/subjective phrasing used by some, and "this is absolute gak"/objective phrasing used by others. "Whose idea was it to give the helmetless version a mohawk????" (for example) - Why, probably someone who thought it looked cool, like I do. But I note you aren't calling *them* to task over a pretty objective statement that a thing that some people like must be bad. Funny that.
I absolutely agree with everything you’ve said here … apart from the bit where you said you don’t get people who look at these minis and complain. You totally understand that there’s a wide range of reasons why somebody might say, “I don’t like this”, ranging from, this particular mini isn’t to their taste, to wanting to find something to criticise about every GW release because they have a pathological need to do so.
Yes, I’m totally with you in finding the contrarian knitpickers and the “objectively garbage” brigade utterly irritating. However, regardless of how annoyingly they might choose to voice their opinion, I don’t find it interesting to hear it.
As for your forest analogy, I think it’s perfectly understandable to like the forest but find fault with one tree. I absolutely adore the new mark vi’s. I might even be coming round to thinking that the SoH praetor is my favourite space marine mini GW has ever produced. I just don’t like the new guy though. If you like him, then that’s great.
Anyway, I’m genuinely sorry if I came across as having a go at you. It wasn’t my intention.
I almost sort of wish that they’d keep everything but the troops resin, because 99% of new players aren’t going to touch anything non plastic and skip out on all the insanely cool stuff 30k has to offer if you look at resin stuff.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I almost sort of wish that they’d keep everything but the troops resin, because 99% of new players aren’t going to touch anything non plastic and skip out on all the insanely cool stuff 30k has to offer if you look at resin stuff.
Why you want the new players to skip 'the cool stuff'?
It's just the paintjob, y'know? If you wanna drown out all the details, you're more than welcome to smother him in an entire pot of a wash, and you'll get your aesthetic right back.
And if it's not just the paintjob, then do say, what exactly changed about the aesthetic? They both look like blokes in fancy power armour.
You know there's this magical thing you can do where you just don't buy the model? Amazing right? You can just not do it. It's that easy! Hell, you could even buy an entirely different model to use as your Praetor. There is literally nothing stopping you from buying what you want to buy. Stop being prats and whinging that new players aren't going to cake their models in 200 layers of FW weathering powders because a lot of us never did.
warboss wrote: The original terminator one is still one of my favorite models in the entire line with a great balance of practical and bling IMO.
Definitely. The more I look at the new plastics versus the old resin ones, the more I come to realise the understated but more æstheticly pleasing look of the originals.
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Gert wrote: You know there's this magical thing you can do where you just don't buy the model? Amazing right? You can just not do it. It's that easy! Hell, you could even buy an entirely different model to use as your Praetor. There is literally nothing stopping you from buying what you want to buy. Stop being prats and whinging that new players aren't going to cake their models in 200 layers of FW weathering powders because a lot of us never did.
Heaven forbid people voice their preferences or opinions…
Gert wrote: You know there's this magical thing you can do where you just don't buy the model? Amazing right? You can just not do it. It's that easy! Hell, you could even buy an entirely different model to use as your Praetor. There is literally nothing stopping you from buying what you want to buy. Stop being prats and whinging that new players aren't going to cake their models in 200 layers of FW weathering powders because a lot of us never did.
I recommend you start a blog. If you do, then and only then do you actually have the right to dictate what constitutes wrongthink on a discussion forum. Or just tweet your thoughts instead and just wait with baited breath to block.
warboss wrote: The original terminator one is still one of my favorite models in the entire line with a great balance of practical and bling IMO.
Definitely. The more I look at the new plastics versus the old resin ones, the more I come to realise the understated but more æstheticly pleasing look of the originals.
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Gert wrote: You know there's this magical thing you can do where you just don't buy the model? Amazing right? You can just not do it. It's that easy! Hell, you could even buy an entirely different model to use as your Praetor. There is literally nothing stopping you from buying what you want to buy. Stop being prats and whinging that new players aren't going to cake their models in 200 layers of FW weathering powders because a lot of us never did.
Heaven forbid people voice their preferences or opinions…
Heaven forbid people to both not buy a thing and comment about it!
zedmeister wrote: Heaven forbid people voice their preferences or opinions…
My opinion is you are all whinging. Is my opinion not allowed because I called you a whinger?
I didn't see you guys dogpiling Wha-Mu even though they did the same thing I did.
All this talk about aesthetic and GW ruining HH so they can get new people to buy-in is just pathetic. There is no aesthetic because people have always painted/converted their models how they wanted. Some people use edge highlights, some people use weathering powders, some people use oils, some people use Contrast, and some people just slap on a wash and call it a day. FW isn't even consistent with how the product images are painted on their own website. Pretending that GW is ruining HH because marketing images promote one style of painting or because of fancy models when HH has had fancy models from day one is just stupid.
Can't say I really like the look of the Imperial Fist Praetor. Not a huge fan of the heads (the helmet looks a bit small on the miniature, and I don't really like the crest on the unhelmeted head - though with some clipping off, I really like the face/facial hair), and the pose with the sword and volkite seems a bit off to me. That said I think a little bit of knife work and and some green stuff/a head swap could fix my issues with it.
I wasn't initially a big fan of the SoH one either, and then I saw someone on Bolter and Chainsword swap with head with a MKIII Salamander head, clip off the trophy rack, and change the paint to a Salamander scheme in some program, and I thought it looked fantastic. Think the SoH one with a different head and no trophy rack is a pretty great mini.
zedmeister wrote: Heaven forbid people voice their preferences or opinions…
My opinion is you are all whinging. Is my opinion not allowed because I called you a whinger?
I didn't see you guys dogpiling Wha-Mu even though they did the same thing I did.
All this talk about aesthetic and GW ruining HH so they can get new people to buy-in is just pathetic. There is no aesthetic because people have always painted/converted their models how they wanted. Some people use edge highlights, some people use weathering powders, some people use oils, some people use Contrast, and some people just slap on a wash and call it a day. FW isn't even consistent with how the product images are painted on their own website. Pretending that GW is ruining HH because marketing images promote one style of painting or that there are fancy models when HH has had fancy models from day one is just stupid.
Well that's obviously because they all have me on ignore by now.
zedmeister wrote: Heaven forbid people voice their preferences or opinions…
My opinion is you are all whinging. Is my opinion not allowed because I called you a whinger?
I didn't see you guys dogpiling Wha-Mu even though they did the same thing I did.
All this talk about aesthetic and GW ruining HH so they can get new people to buy-in is just pathetic. There is no aesthetic because people have always painted/converted their models how they wanted. Some people use edge highlights, some people use weathering powders, some people use oils, some people use Contrast, and some people just slap on a wash and call it a day. FW isn't even consistent with how the product images are painted on their own website. Pretending that GW is ruining HH because marketing images promote one style of painting or because of fancy models when HH has had fancy models from day one is just stupid.
Because your post came across as a response to a personal attack. If someone doesn't like a model, so be it. No need to whinge about it
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Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Well that's obviously because they all have me on ignore by now.
Are people complaining that the new models are being painted in the 'Eavy Metal style instead of the grittier Forgeworld style?
Strange, I remember when people used to complain that the old models were painted in the grittier Forgeworld style instead of the 'Eavy Metal style.
Edit: and won’t you believe it, they’re temporarily out of stock!
The original terminator one is still one of my favorite models in the entire line with a great balance of practical and bling IMO.
Love that model, and also a great example of less is more in terms of details and decorations. Had that model been designed now it'd be covered in stuff.
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Gert wrote: You know there's this magical thing you can do where you just don't buy the model? Amazing right? You can just not do it. It's that easy! Hell, you could even buy an entirely different model to use as your Praetor. There is literally nothing stopping you from buying what you want to buy. Stop being prats and whinging that new players aren't going to cake their models in 200 layers of FW weathering powders because a lot of us never did.
I find the best way to show people I'm not upset it to get really passive aggressive
Something about the IF praetor looks off to me, beyond the head (since I'm looking at the helmet version). I think I'm so used to weird, stunty GW proportions that a more reasonably scaled model looks off. His arms look thinner though that may be due to him having extra thicc shoulder pads. Not that correct scaling is a bad thing, the sword arm really stands out to me though
What I miss is the lack of alternative paintjobs for those Praetors as we got for the Mk6 Tactical Squad.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Are people complaining that the new models are being painted in the 'Eavy Metal style instead of the grittier Forgeworld style?
Strange, I remember when people used to complain that the old models were painted in the grittier Forgeworld style instead of the 'Eavy Metal style.
Can remember that some folks complainted that the FWHH paint jobs are bland and lazy and that the Eavy Metal style is so much better...
GaroRobe wrote: Something about the IF praetor looks off to me, beyond the head (since I'm looking at the helmet version). I think I'm so used to weird, stunty GW proportions that a more reasonably scaled model looks off. His arms look thinner though that may be due to him having extra thicc shoulder pads. Not that correct scaling is a bad thing, the sword arm really stands out to me though
It's possibly the angle, it looked less bad head on, but I think part of it too is the pose is just weird.
Gert wrote: People proving the stereotype of a HH player being a miserable troll who gatekeeps paint jobs tends to do that, yeah.
If you don't like people painting their own models their own way using certain techniques or painting styles, so be it. No need to whinge about it
On a more serious note, for the past 10 years of Heresy players have stylistically taken on the more battle damaged worn look. That means painting techniques involving oil or enamel washes, chipping and battle damaged. If you have a problem with that, then that's your problem.
For me the pose looks like it was designed before the "tactical rock" was added and would work better when slightly turned or with the rock on the other feet.
I think the head itself is good. It's just the mohawk bit that looks really strange. We haven't had anything like that before (that I know of) in 40k, and since they market it as as "generic" praetor, it seems a weird choice for someone who runs Night Lords, or Iron Warriors, or Iron Hands. I said it on the previous page, but it looks like its something from AOS. The stormcast have a few bare heads that have weird mohawk/ponytails, so it's not my favorite thing to see added to a praetor
Obviously, it'll be easy enough to clip off, but its still a weird choice.
I think I'll try him as White Scars (and I'm also sure that's a completely original thought!). I'm going to paint up some WS, BA, LW, SoH for sure when I get my sets bought, maybe some others too, and I think this head will look nice as WS.
The pose is fine apart the arm lifting the sword. The elbow joint looks a bit off and the thick cables make it look even weirder.
I wonder if this could be a dual kit containing the two praetor models, designed so that you could mix and match some of the bits like the arms, chest plates and the belt buckles? Probably not, but it would be cool.
ProfSrlojohn wrote: The model itself is... fine, but my god every time I see a IF, it amplifies the parts I like least about this new HH art style. They yellows make it all look just so.... plastic? Enameled? Glossy? Waxy? I'm not sure what to call it but Fafnir had it as well and it just doesn't look good to me. It's kind of there on the SoH guy, but it's nowhere nearly as obvious.
GW's ultra clean paint scheme has a bad tendency to bring out the toyetic quality in models.
ProfSrlojohn wrote: The model itself is... fine, but my god every time I see a IF, it amplifies the parts I like least about this new HH art style. They yellows make it all look just so.... plastic? Enameled? Glossy? Waxy? I'm not sure what to call it but Fafnir had it as well and it just doesn't look good to me. It's kind of there on the SoH guy, but it's nowhere nearly as obvious.
GW's ultra clean paint scheme has a bad tendency to bring out the toyetic quality in models.
It also has a tendency to bring out the armchair Da Vincis.
Anyways, rumor is that there's going to be a plastic army set for each faction as their books drop.
Gert wrote: You know there's this magical thing you can do where you just don't buy the model? Amazing right? You can just not do it. It's that easy! Hell, you could even buy an entirely different model to use as your Praetor. There is literally nothing stopping you from buying what you want to buy. Stop being prats and whinging that new players aren't going to cake their models in 200 layers of FW weathering powders because a lot of us never did.
I recommend you start a blog. If you do, then and only then do you actually have the right to dictate what constitutes wrongthink on a discussion forum. Or just tweet your thoughts instead and just wait with baited breath to block.
As someone with a very infrequently updated hobby blog: do the thing that sparks joy, but don't go out of your way to yuk other people's yum.
Or as Bill and Ted put it: Be excellent to each other.
ProfSrlojohn wrote: The model itself is... fine, but my god every time I see a IF, it amplifies the parts I like least about this new HH art style. They yellows make it all look just so.... plastic? Enameled? Glossy? Waxy? I'm not sure what to call it but Fafnir had it as well and it just doesn't look good to me. It's kind of there on the SoH guy, but it's nowhere nearly as obvious.
GW's ultra clean paint scheme has a bad tendency to bring out the toyetic quality in models.
It also has a tendency to bring out the armchair Da Vincis.
Anyways, rumor is that there's going to be a plastic army set for each faction as their books drop.
I was thinking of how bad Primaris looked at launch in GW's clean style but a little weathering or a less toyetic blue and the models looked way better.
'Eavy Metal lets you see all the details but that doesn't help sell the model as a "real person" if that makes any sense to anyone who isn't me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And on a different note it might be me reading the Night Lords omnibus but I'm curious to see what batwings on MkVI helmets would look like.
I was thinking of how bad Primaris looked at launch in GW's clean style but a little weathering or a less toyetic blue and the models looked way better.
I actually liked the rollout of the primaris in the clean style. It fit their fresh from the factory image and backstory. Grizzled companies engaged in the centuries long Great Crusade? Less so IMO. But as you said, paint your tiny toy soldiers however you like and let others do the same.
I was thinking of how bad Primaris looked at launch in GW's clean style but a little weathering or a less toyetic blue and the models looked way better.
You are using 'toyetic' wrong. Toyetic means a subject matter has potential as a toy. Iron Man and his many suits are toyetic. Space Marines in their iconic armor are toyetic. The more appropriate word you should use - as it seams you are casting about for a pejorative - is "toylike".
GaroRobe wrote: I think the head itself is good. It's just the mohawk bit that looks really strange. We haven't had anything like that before (that I know of) in 40k, and since they market it as as "generic" praetor, it seems a weird choice for someone who runs Night Lords, or Iron Warriors, or Iron Hands. I said it on the previous page, but it looks like its something from AOS.
We didn't in 40K, but funnily enough, did in HH - this hat looks exactly identical to multiple Blanche pics, say this Fulgrim one (except crest instead of dumb spike):
Spoiler:
I am kinda shocked this is criticized so heavily, usually gakkiest Blanche scribbles are defended to death here, even when they result in terribad models (*cough* Veridian *cough*) so seeing OK model dunked on is somewhat weird. What is not surprising, though, is gatekeeping herd brigade not knowing past lore or art of HH at all and bashing things that look more like old HH and actually less like 40K as the latter
If this looks like AoS to you, it's because Stormcast look was heavily inspired by Blanche gakky "art" too - and only now with 3rd edition of AoS they finally start looking like something remotely practical and heroic instead of bucket of spikes thrown into a blender. Same source, but the designs were made years if not decades ago, long before AoS or HH the game were actually a thing.
This is bait, isn't it? Otherwise you didn't pick one of the worst possible examples to demolish your own point - both models have identical design language, with the difference being one being actually good model and paint scheme and the other being gakky FW "cast" with terrible dwarf anatomy and details, quickly dunked in wood stainer twice - you could achieve totally identical results if you dipped plastic mini in solvent to soften edges then rolled it in mud. Then it would be 'pure' HH, eh?
If anything, the model that looks more 40K is the one on the right - I remember it being bashed for having ""40K aquilas"", ""trims"" and ""pose"" - it's hilarious to see it now paraded as 'true' HH and the model actually true to HH roots being bashed as 40K
Crablezworth wrote: Love that model, and also a great example of less is more in terms of details and decorations
You say "less" because of lazy, 3.5 colors palette. It's almost monochrome. Just look at the gun, one greenish blob. I'd bet that if new model was painted this detail-less way and your praetor new GW style, you'd be saying the first is the lesser-more one, and the latter over-designed junk. It's amazing how people can't look past paint and say things that are objectively false just because painter emphasized or muted them.
It's especially funny (and sad) because if anything, old HH depictions had pristine armour, as it was freshly made (even in Blanche depictions, at that), while the 40K one were dirty and broken from lack of maintenance, resources, and 10.000 years of wear. HH lemmings just latched to paintings of one (really wrong from fluff perspective) FW painter doing stuff in 'historical' style, when really, current GW paint jobs are how it was always supposed to look like. Bright and shiny, like everything during Great Crusade.
But again, it's not like gatekeeping brigade actually knows the fluff (or cares for it), it's just always muh dumping on plastic models/GW paint styles to cope with wasting tons of money uselessly on objectively worse minis that were then further degraded by really subpar paint jobs that are hilariously wrong even on WW2 models (seriously, I saw a seminar once on difference how people imagine/paint dirty/worn out 'realistic' WW2 tanks and how they really looked like, and FW "style" was rubbished as laughable nonsense even in it by actual WW2 experts)...
I was thinking of how bad Primaris looked at launch in GW's clean style but a little weathering or a less toyetic blue and the models looked way better.
You are using 'toyetic' wrong. Toyetic means a subject matter has potential as a toy. Iron Man and his many suits are toyetic. Space Marines in their iconic armor are toyetic. The more appropriate word you should use - as it seams you are casting about for a pejorative - is "toylike".
I just don't understand the negative reactions to the Praetors. They are *so similar* to the standard FW line - and where they deviate, they honestly seem like sensible design choices, to me at least.
The relentless negativity on this forum is soul destroying. God almighty. It's no wonder most of the online hobby discussion has migrated to Reddit. This place is just insufferable sometimes.
I understand that not everyone will like every release. But Christ almighty, you don't have to rain all over everyone else's parade. That kind of attitude is so exhausting.
crumby_cataphract wrote: I just don't understand the negative reactions to the Praetors. They are *so similar* to the standard FW line - and where they deviate, they honestly seem like sensible design choices, to me at least.
The relentless negativity on this forum is soul destroying. God almighty. It's no wonder most of the online hobby discussion has migrated to Reddit. This place is just insufferable sometimes.
I understand that not everyone will like every release. But Christ almighty, you don't have to rain all over everyone else's parade. That kind of attitude is so exhausting.
I can understand many of the criticisms, but there's something uniquely irritating about Dakka's fusion of relentless negativity combined with smugness.
crumby_cataphract wrote: I just don't understand the negative reactions to the Praetors. They are *so similar* to the standard FW line - and where they deviate, they honestly seem like sensible design choices, to me at least.
The relentless negativity on this forum is soul destroying. God almighty. It's no wonder most of the online hobby discussion has migrated to Reddit. This place is just insufferable sometimes.
I understand that not everyone will like every release. But Christ almighty, you don't have to rain all over everyone else's parade. That kind of attitude is so exhausting.
I can understand many of the criticisms, but there's something uniquely irritating about Dakka's fusion of relentless negativity combined with smugness.
I can get this. I definitely see a few too many posts that aren't "I don't like this, and this is why," and are more "I don't like this, so let me tell you why you are wrong for liking it, and personally insult you while I'm doing so."
I totally agree. It’s hard to post anything on Dakka without somebody deciding the best response is to attack you. I’ll admit, I’ve fallen into that trap myself because one finds oneself getting sucked in to that Dakka mindset.
I keep seriously thinking about giving up Dakka completely because of its toxicity. I even deleted all of my pics off Dakka because I didn’t want my work on this platform anymore.
Dakka is a discussion forum. It seems to me its the right place to discuss things!
Providing people are being constructive in their criticism, or praise for that matter, I don't have any problem with it.
I think the IF/DG comparison photo, whilst perhaps cherry-picking, definitely shows a stylistic change from some of the earlier, much more utilitarian looking sculpts. To me it does feel closer to a 40k-marine look than a 30k marine.
That being said he is painted as an Imperial Fist and so the over-ostentation is perhaps a better fit. I'll wait to see what some of the other new sculpts look like, hopefully they will tone it down a little and keep some of the traditional 30k style (although once again thats a subjective opinion on my part)
Gert wrote: I didn't see you guys dogpiling Wha-Mu even though they did the same thing I did.
'Cause he didn't do the same thing.
He said he didn't like it.
You gave us some White Knight highlights, like "If you don't like it don't buy it!" and "You're all just whinging!". And then one post later you're calling HH players "miserable trolls", after acting like the hard-done-by victim in all this. Terrific stuff.
Wha-Mu said what he thought. You attempted to tell everyone what they thought was wrong.
Pacific wrote:Dakka is a discussion forum. It seems to me its the right place to discuss things!
Providing people are being constructive in their criticism, or praise for that matter, I don't have any problem with it.
I don’t think anybody would accuse you of adding to the general negativity of the site Pacific. You’ve always seemed like a very reasonable poster to me.
The relentless negativity on this forum is soul destroying. God almighty. It's no wonder most of the online hobby discussion has migrated to Reddit. This place is just insufferable sometimes.
Yeah the problem is that reddit is a domain of forced optimism and endless positivity.
H.B.M.C. wrote: You gave us some White Knight highlights, like "If you don't like it don't buy it!" and "You're all just whinging!".
"Everyone who disagrees with people who don't like GW stuff is a White Knight", another HBMC classic.
As for the "whinging" part, what would you call people making up standards of painting for HH and then doom-mongering that new people will ruin the aesthetic of the game by not adhering to said made-up standards? Sounds a lot like whinging to me chief.
And then one post later you're calling HH players "miserable trolls", after acting like the hard-done-by victim in all this. Terrific stuff.
Actually, I said they were reinforcing the stereotype. There is a difference but considering you have a habit of misreading my posts to suit your agenda I wouldn't expect you to understand that.
Wha-Mu said what he thought.
You attempted to tell everyone what they thought was wrong.
Nope, just told them they didn't have to buy it if they didn't like it and not to pretend HH has specific painting standards or to make up boogeymen to get mad about.
If anyone is trying to play the victim it's the people who have spent the better part of the last year constantly complaining about every single thing GW has released for HH 2.0 so far from the MkVI nonsense to making up as many boogeymen as they can to justify keeping new players out of HH.
The relentless negativity on this forum is soul destroying. God almighty. It's no wonder most of the online hobby discussion has migrated to Reddit. This place is just insufferable sometimes.
Yeah the problem is that reddit is a domain of forced optimism and endless positivity.
Indeed. Reddit is toxic in its enforced positivity, you get downvoted just by having opinions that go against the typical hivemind. Give me Dakkas any day of the week thx
On the topic of these prateors. I don't have the slightest idea as on what people think looks HH-esque, but as someone who grew up with MkVI Corvus armour, I dont feel like either of these armours honour the design language of the originals. The prominently tacticool heritage is mixed in with too knightly, plate armour elements. Original Corvus still feels like a scifi design (late 70's/early 80's anime inspired maybe but nonetheless), whereas these artificer armours just want to add too much elements that do not have that minimalistic feel to them.
I feel like the traitor Captain is still the better looking of the two, as a Space Marine HQ model per se. But really think they do not feel like Corvus suits. Even Primaris Mark X feels more like corvus than these. It's almost as if the designers would have preferred to make both of these miniatures wear MkII/MkIII than Corvus, and kicked and screamed through every step of the design process.
It's busy for sure but I think it makes the distinction of Artificer Armour pretty clear. You can see that at some point it was MkVI but with time and the owner's personal additions, it's something different. It will work for some Legions but not for others but that always seems to be the case with the various HH armours anyway.
I have just realised that for all intents and purposes, both models have the exact same equipment. Power Weapon/Paragon Blade, Artificer Armour, Iron Halo and a Volkite Charger.
This is bait, isn't it? Otherwise you didn't pick one of the worst possible examples to demolish your own point - both models have identical design language, with the difference being one being actually good model and paint scheme and the other being gakky FW "cast" with terrible dwarf anatomy and details, quickly dunked in wood stainer twice - you could achieve totally identical results if you dipped plastic mini in solvent to soften edges then rolled it in mud. Then it would be 'pure' HH, eh?
If anything, the model that looks more 40K is the one on the right - I remember it being bashed for having ""40K aquilas"", ""trims"" and ""pose"" - it's hilarious to see it now paraded as 'true' HH and the model actually true to HH roots being bashed as 40K
Crablezworth wrote: Love that model, and also a great example of less is more in terms of details and decorations
You say "less" because of lazy, 3.5 colors palette. It's almost monochrome. Just look at the gun, one greenish blob. I'd bet that if new model was painted this detail-less way and your praetor new GW style, you'd be saying the first is the lesser-more one, and the latter over-designed junk. It's amazing how people can't look past paint and say things that are objectively false just because painter emphasized or muted them.
It's especially funny (and sad) because if anything, old HH depictions had pristine armour, as it was freshly made (even in Blanche depictions, at that), while the 40K one were dirty and broken from lack of maintenance, resources, and 10.000 years of wear. HH lemmings just latched to paintings of one (really wrong from fluff perspective) FW painter doing stuff in 'historical' style, when really, current GW paint jobs are how it was always supposed to look like. Bright and shiny, like everything during Great Crusade.
But again, it's not like gatekeeping brigade actually knows the fluff (or cares for it), it's just always muh dumping on plastic models/GW paint styles to cope with wasting tons of money uselessly on objectively worse minis that were then further degraded by really subpar paint jobs that are hilariously wrong even on WW2 models (seriously, I saw a seminar once on difference how people imagine/paint dirty/worn out 'realistic' WW2 tanks and how they really looked like, and FW "style" was rubbished as laughable nonsense even in it by actual WW2 experts)...
tauist wrote: whereas these artificer armours just want to add too much elements that do not have that minimalistic feel to them.
But that's exactly the point of artificer armor in the fluff. It's a specifically customized suit of armor to the wearer's preference that is further embellished and decorated by the original user that is eventually kept as a relic by the Chapter/Legion. These new plastics actually reflect that.
Pacific wrote: Dakka is a discussion forum. It seems to me its the right place to discuss things!
Providing people are being constructive in their criticism, or praise for that matter, I don't have any problem with it.
I think the IF/DG comparison photo, whilst perhaps cherry-picking, definitely shows a stylistic change from some of the earlier, much more utilitarian looking sculpts. To me it does feel closer to a 40k-marine look than a 30k marine.
That being said he is painted as an Imperial Fist and so the over-ostentation is perhaps a better fit. I'll wait to see what some of the other new sculpts look like, hopefully they will tone it down a little and keep some of the traditional 30k style (although once again thats a subjective opinion on my part)
It's a character model, and one you shouldn't have more than a couple of really in an army so I can see why they blinged them out to stand out among the more plain models.
Crablezworth wrote: Love that model, and also a great example of less is more in terms of details and decorations
You say "less" because of lazy, 3.5 colors palette. It's almost monochrome. Just look at the gun, one greenish blob. I'd bet that if new model was painted this detail-less way and your praetor new GW style, you'd be saying the first is the lesser-more one, and the latter over-designed junk. It's amazing how people can't look past paint and say things that are objectively false just because painter emphasized or muted them.
It's especially funny (and sad) because if anything, old HH depictions had pristine armour, as it was freshly made (even in Blanche depictions, at that), while the 40K one were dirty and broken from lack of maintenance, resources, and 10.000 years of wear. HH lemmings just latched to paintings of one (really wrong from fluff perspective) FW painter doing stuff in 'historical' style, when really, current GW paint jobs are how it was always supposed to look like. Bright and shiny, like everything during Great Crusade.
But again, it's not like gatekeeping brigade actually knows the fluff (or cares for it), it's just always muh dumping on plastic models/GW paint styles to cope with wasting tons of money uselessly on objectively worse minis that were then further degraded by really subpar paint jobs that are hilariously wrong even on WW2 models (seriously, I saw a seminar once on difference how people imagine/paint dirty/worn out 'realistic' WW2 tanks and how they really looked like, and FW "style" was rubbished as laughable nonsense even in it by actual WW2 experts)...
Honestly, I don't even mind that, I like both styles, my issue is with this weird in-between that they're doing for HH models that just looks odd, at least to me. Like they're trying to have their cake and eat it too. Some colors chemes look alright, but IF just amplifies it more.
tauist wrote: whereas these artificer armours just want to add too much elements that do not have that minimalistic feel to them.
But that's exactly the point of artificer armor in the fluff. It's a specifically customized suit of armor to the wearer's preference that is further embellished and decorated by the original user that is eventually kept as a relic by the Chapter/Legion. These new plastics actually reflect that.
What mark is the axe praetor supposed to be based on?
Contentless drivel posts like yours are a disgrace to the forums. Cheerleading people being nasty to each other only serves to heighten division, and not adding any thought of your own highlights that either a) you're a simpleton with nothing of your own to contribute or b) you're a coward afraid to speak your mind.
The whole point of having a damned "exalt" feature on this forum is so we don't need to have these kind of vacuous grandstanding exercises if all you really want to express is your agreement with someone.
Gert wrote: It's busy for sure but I think it makes the distinction of Artificer Armour pretty clear. You can see that at some point it was MkVI but with time and the owner's personal additions, it's something different.
Does the timeline work for that? I was under the impression that deployment of MkVI had only just begun when hostilities broke out. Or is this case where the 30k universe's hundreds-and-hundreds-of-years time scale makes the intuitive reading -- that the newest model of advanced armour wouldn't have time to make it to revered-ancient-relic status until well after the war -- less accurate?
tauist wrote: whereas these artificer armours just want to add too much elements that do not have that minimalistic feel to them.
But that's exactly the point of artificer armor in the fluff. It's a specifically customized suit of armor to the wearer's preference that is further embellished and decorated by the original user that is eventually kept as a relic by the Chapter/Legion. These new plastics actually reflect that.
What mark is the axe praetor supposed to be based on?
The axe is the only significant mark against that model for me. Obviously the design doesn't work and it's very oversized, I can forgive both of those aspects but I'd expect it to have a very utilitarian appearance and it really doesn't.
Gert wrote: It's busy for sure but I think it makes the distinction of Artificer Armour pretty clear. You can see that at some point it was MkVI but with time and the owner's personal additions, it's something different.
Does the timeline work for that? I was under the impression that deployment of MkVI had only just begun when hostilities broke out. Or is this case where the 30k universe's hundreds-and-hundreds-of-years time scale makes the intuitive reading -- that the newest model of advanced armour wouldn't have time to make it to revered-ancient-relic status until well after the war -- less accurate?
Artificer armour doesn’t have to be ancient to be good. The ancient bit comes after that, as the legion/chapter keeps the super-suit for the use of champions of the future. The sequence is: bossman gets armour; bossman has armour customised; bossman’s custom orders cover or negate specific weaknesses in that suit, because he’s experienced and knows what’s what; eventually bossman is unable to use the suit anymore and so it passes into chapter legend and also the trophy room.
I wonder if Mr. Mustache would look better if his sword arm were tilted forwards, to give his pose more intentionality. People swinging their swords to point a things is an awful cliche, but it usually works.
It would be a bit of a move involved conversion, but if you could sling his gun over his shoulder and have both hands on the sword to make it look like he's about to take a proper swing then it could end up looking really snazzy.
The relentless negativity on this forum is soul destroying. God almighty. It's no wonder most of the online hobby discussion has migrated to Reddit. This place is just insufferable sometimes.
Yeah the problem is that reddit is a domain of forced optimism and endless positivity.
Endless white knighting around GW's products started making a lot more sense when you realise how many people involved in the hobby now also have shares in GW. Toxic positivity and white knighting are probably seen as protecting their investments, rather than as blind fanboyism.
Agamemnon2 wrote: Does the timeline work for that? I was under the impression that deployment of MkVI had only just begun when hostilities broke out. Or is this case where the 30k universe's hundreds-and-hundreds-of-years time scale makes the intuitive reading -- that the newest model of advanced armour wouldn't have time to make it to revered-ancient-relic status until well after the war -- less accurate?
The Heresy lasted 10 years. There's a lot of downtime between Warp transits and battles which means time for training or swapping war stories. If you hear that the Traitors have started putting the Eye of Horus on their banners and wargear, you might decide that you are going to show your loyalty to the Emperor and start wearing Aquila pendants or stylised armour pieces with Imperial iconography. Perhaps you supplant some honours or personal effects from your older suit onto your new one to maintain consistency in the eyes of your troops, after all, it wouldn't do if they accidentally disobeyed orders because they didn't realise you were their commander because you didn't have your signature plume or topknot.
You also have to remember that the later stages of the Heresy became a lot about showing just how loyal you were to your side. If you make sure to emphasise your side's icons and imagery, how can anyone doubt your loyalty to the cause?
Also, Artificer Armour isn't as much of a relic in the HH era as it is after. You have basic line officers like Tactical Sergeants or Heavy Weapon Sergeants wearing it because they have access to the best facilities the Imperium has to offer and have excellent supply networks to give them whatever they need, whenever they need it. There is unity between the various armed forces of the Imperium and this unity shows in the Legion's ability to field masses of equipment and technology that has become rare and almost holy to Chapters after the Heresy ends. Things like Terminator armour in a Chapter are reserved for only the most veteran of Astartes, whereas in the HH era Terminator armour was common within all companies of the Legion, not just the veteran ones.
The relentless negativity on this forum is soul destroying. God almighty. It's no wonder most of the online hobby discussion has migrated to Reddit. This place is just insufferable sometimes.
Yeah the problem is that reddit is a domain of forced optimism and endless positivity.
Endless white knighting around GW's products started making a lot more sense when you realise how many people involved in the hobby now also have shares in GW. Toxic positivity and white knighting are probably seen as protecting their investments, rather than as blind fanboyism.
Is your local store out of tin foil? Because that sounds a bit of an insane leap in logic. Do people not believe that people who are positive about releases because they like the releases or is simple enjoyment somehow less realistic than "protecting their investment"?
Agamemnon2 wrote: Does the timeline work for that? I was under the impression that deployment of MkVI had only just begun when hostilities broke out. Or is this case where the 30k universe's hundreds-and-hundreds-of-years time scale makes the intuitive reading -- that the newest model of advanced armour wouldn't have time to make it to revered-ancient-relic status until well after the war -- less accurate?
The Heresy lasted 10 years. There's a lot of downtime between Warp transits and battles which means time for training or swapping war stories. If you hear that the Traitors have started putting the Eye of Horus on their banners and wargear, you might decide that you are going to show your loyalty to the Emperor and start wearing Aquila pendants or stylised armour pieces with Imperial iconography. Perhaps you supplant some honours or personal effects from your older suit onto your new one to maintain consistency in the eyes of your troops, after all, it wouldn't do if they accidentally disobeyed orders because they didn't realise you were their commander because you didn't have your signature plume or topknot.
You also have to remember that the later stages of the Heresy became a lot about showing just how loyal you were to your side. If you make sure to emphasise your side's icons and imagery, how can anyone doubt your loyalty to the cause?
Also, Artificer Armour isn't as much of a relic in the HH era as it is after. You have basic line officers like Tactical Sergeants or Heavy Weapon Sergeants wearing it because they have access to the best facilities the Imperium has to offer and have excellent supply networks to give them whatever they need, whenever they need it. There is unity between the various armed forces of the Imperium and this unity shows in the Legion's ability to field masses of equipment and technology that has become rare and almost holy to Chapters after the Heresy ends. Things like Terminator armour in a Chapter are reserved for only the most veteran of Astartes, whereas in the HH era Terminator armour was common within all companies of the Legion, not just the veteran ones.
Aquilas seem to come into wearing around as soon as the Dropsite Massacre based on Massacre:
‘How apt,’ said Cyrion.
‘What?' Talos was still struggling to clear his retinal alarms. First Claw had sustained no fatalities, but the other squads were beginning to register an infrequent stream of fallen kin. There was gene-harvesting to be done.
Cyrion banged a gauntleted fist against Talos’ smoking breastplate, where the silver-forged aquila was reduced to cracked, blackened devastation.
‘That,’ he said. ‘How apt.’
It might have been a way to show allegiance to the Emperor over Horus by the forces who claimed to be there to censure Horus, though it means there were traitors wearing the aquila as well, though they likely defaced it later.
If I was any good at photoshop, I'd give the new praetor a headswap that way, there's something off about both the choices in the kit. The helmet also looks like it's sitting too high in the gorget, although that might be an intentional change to "truescale" them more.
As an aside, it amuses me that we finally got truescaled Firstborn as a part of the Heresy. You youngbeards might not remember this, but around 20 years ago, there was a brief trend to make "pre-heresy" and "truescale" marine armies, often leveraging the at the time fairly new Chaos Warrior plastics, to create more imposing marines bedecked with furs and cloaks, to go with the HHCCG and its art books, popular at the time.
Agamemnon2 wrote: If I was any good at photoshop, I'd give the new praetor a headswap that way, there's something off about both the choices in the kit. The helmet also looks like it's sitting too high in the gorget, although that might be an intentional change to "truescale" them more.
As an aside, it amuses me that we finally got truescaled Firstborn as a part of the Heresy. You youngbeards might not remember this, but around 20 years ago, there was a brief trend to make "pre-heresy" and "truescale" marine armies, often leveraging the at the time fairly new Chaos Warrior plastics, to create more imposing marines bedecked with furs and cloaks, to go with the HHCCG and its art books, popular at the time.
I assumed the head looks like it's sitting too high because they blue tac'd it in for a couple of pictures, something the studio has done in the past when getting different pictures of multiple options over building and painting multiples of the same kit.
The relentless negativity on this forum is soul destroying. God almighty. It's no wonder most of the online hobby discussion has migrated to Reddit. This place is just insufferable sometimes.
Yeah the problem is that reddit is a domain of forced optimism and endless positivity.
Endless white knighting around GW's products started making a lot more sense when you realise how many people involved in the hobby now also have shares in GW. Toxic positivity and white knighting are probably seen as protecting their investments, rather than as blind fanboyism.
Is your local store out of tin foil? Because that sounds a bit of an insane leap in logic. Do people not believe that people who are positive about releases because they like the releases or is simple enjoyment somehow less realistic than "protecting their investment"?
I've spoken to several people who are complete fanboys of GW, who've later mentioned in one form or another, most (if not all) of their hobby budget has come from the money they made from GW shares. This is both IRL and online. It's happened enough as to feel like more than a coincidence.
Obviously blind fanboyism and doing it for free is nothing new, but it might explain in part why GW seems to cultivate a certain diehard who'd take a bullet for the Sigmarine statue in Nottingham. It's probably a lot easier to forgive, if not love something, when you're pretty much getting it for free or even making money off it.
I've spoken to several people who are complete fanboys of GW, who've later mentioned in one form or another, most (if not all) of their hobby budget has come from the money they made from GW shares. This is both IRL and online. It's happened enough as to feel like more than a coincidence.
Obviously blind fanboyism and doing it for free is nothing new, but it might explain in part why GW seems to cultivate a certain diehard who'd take a bullet for the Sigmarine statue in Nottingham. It's probably a lot easier to forgive, if not love something, when you're pretty much getting it for free or even making money off it.
And I've spoken to loads of people who aren't endlessly negative about GW releases and not a single one of us has stocks and doesn't understand the stock market at all beyond:
I'd say I'm generally positive about GW but I don't play with stocks. Seems like a very small percentage of people invested in this game would really. I guess it's largely down to expectation management and not putting all my eggs in one basket for what I find fun with the hobby.
I don't know, it seems cynical to claim that people are being paid (even indirectly through share prices) to support GW, if not straight up conspiracy theorist. Are there likely people who do make money on stocks for their hobby projects? Sure. But I doubt it's a significant number of people and it has more to do with the circles a person is involved with than anything else.
This is bait, isn't it? Otherwise you didn't pick one of the worst possible examples to demolish your own point - both models have identical design language, with the difference being one being actually good model and paint scheme and the other being gakky FW "cast" with terrible dwarf anatomy and details, quickly dunked in wood stainer twice - you could achieve totally identical results if you dipped plastic mini in solvent to soften edges then rolled it in mud. Then it would be 'pure' HH, eh?
If anything, the model that looks more 40K is the one on the right - I remember it being bashed for having ""40K aquilas"", ""trims"" and ""pose"" - it's hilarious to see it now paraded as 'true' HH and the model actually true to HH roots being bashed as 40K
Crablezworth wrote: Love that model, and also a great example of less is more in terms of details and decorations
You say "less" because of lazy, 3.5 colors palette. It's almost monochrome. Just look at the gun, one greenish blob. I'd bet that if new model was painted this detail-less way and your praetor new GW style, you'd be saying the first is the lesser-more one, and the latter over-designed junk. It's amazing how people can't look past paint and say things that are objectively false just because painter emphasized or muted them.
It's especially funny (and sad) because if anything, old HH depictions had pristine armour, as it was freshly made (even in Blanche depictions, at that), while the 40K one were dirty and broken from lack of maintenance, resources, and 10.000 years of wear. HH lemmings just latched to paintings of one (really wrong from fluff perspective) FW painter doing stuff in 'historical' style, when really, current GW paint jobs are how it was always supposed to look like. Bright and shiny, like everything during Great Crusade.
But again, it's not like gatekeeping brigade actually knows the fluff (or cares for it), it's just always muh dumping on plastic models/GW paint styles to cope with wasting tons of money uselessly on objectively worse minis that were then further degraded by really subpar paint jobs that are hilariously wrong even on WW2 models (seriously, I saw a seminar once on difference how people imagine/paint dirty/worn out 'realistic' WW2 tanks and how they really looked like, and FW "style" was rubbished as laughable nonsense even in it by actual WW2 experts)...
I don't recall commenting on the painting or gatekeeping for that matter.
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Undead_Love-Machine wrote: I love the idea that everybody who says something positive about GW or their products must have invested in GW stock.
It's beyond absurd, and yet, it's now been shown that at least one person in the world actually believes it to be true!
Because doing it for free is less troubling to consider...
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: I love the idea that everybody who says something positive about GW or their products must have invested in GW stock.
It's beyond absurd, and yet, it's now been shown that at least one person in the world actually believes it to be true!
Nobody said that.
Agamemnon2 wrote: If I was any good at photoshop, I'd give the new praetor a headswap that way, there's something off about both the choices in the kit. The helmet also looks like it's sitting too high in the gorget, although that might be an intentional change to "truescale" them more.
For me it's not the head options that look weird, it's the posing. I tend to think 'heroic' poses can be overdone, but there's no clear sense of movement or direction. The way the sword is held in particular reminds me of the old one-piece pewters, where the sword is held awkwardly in the same plane as the body so that it could be cast in a single mold.
Part of it might just be the photos squashing a three-dimensional model into a flat plane, and the posing of the head creating a flat posture, but the sword in the air is a little weird when it's not accompanied by an appropriately 'inspiring' pose for the rest of the model (example).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crablezworth wrote: I don't recall commenting on the painting or gatekeeping for that matter.
It's Irbis, it's not really about your post; your post was just an excuse for a masturbatory rant.
I don't hate the new model. It's a pretty busy sculpt and the posing is wonky, but if any model is going to be busy it ought to be a character. I know you didn't talk about painting, but I think if given the FW-style paint scheme rather than a GW-style one, it'll fit in much better with the existing HH stuff. Again, I think that in a 3D space, the detail will be a lot less obtrusive than it is in pictures.
Because he's a nice break from the endless positivity.
Ah yes, because people being excited for a game they play or being interested in is a real problem instead of one invented by bitter people who want everyone else to be bitter too.
I will never understand people who continue to participate in a hobby that makes them so profoundly unhappy that they feel that everyone else needs to be as unhappy as they are to "enjoy" the hobby properly.
I have this theory that everyone who is positive about GW releases, only does that because they’re actually fans of GW’s products and settings. They actually enjoy them and think they’re fun.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: I have this theory that everyone who is positive about GW releases, only does that because they’re actually fans of GW’s products and settings. They actually enjoy them and think they’re fun.
Crazy I know … but it could be true.
Plausible. I too have a similar theory that everyone who is also negative about GW releases, only does that because they’re actually fans of GW’s products and settings. They actually enjoy them and think they could be MORE fun.
Crazy I know … but it could be true. But the massive piles of shame, thousands of online posts, and even nicely packed armies ready to play might lend credence to it. Some even have proof on their blogs and youtube channels!!?!!!
Ahtman wrote: So are these new HH marines Primaris sized? I don't recall seeing where that was mentioned but it has been mentioned in a few discussions.
Ahtman wrote: So are these new HH marines Primaris sized? I don't recall seeing where that was mentioned but it has been mentioned in a few discussions.
Almost. The beakies seem to be about the size of the new CSM, so a bit smaller than the Primaris. The preators seem to be really huge though, so easily primaris-sized.
Considering Arch is an odious, slimy, Nazi toad, I'd appreciate an explanation for the comparison. I'm all for sticking it to the fash, but I'm less fond of people throwing comparisons to pitiful anti-SJW spankers unless they're proportional.
Because he's a nice break from the endless positivity.
Ah yes, because people being excited for a game they play or being interested in is a real problem instead of one invented by bitter people who want everyone else to be bitter too.
I will never understand people who continue to participate in a hobby that makes them so profoundly unhappy that they feel that everyone else needs to be as unhappy as they are to "enjoy" the hobby properly.
Because if everyone is not bitter all the time, and continues buying relentlessly, the hobby will only ever spiral downwards and nothing will ever get better.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: I have this theory that everyone who is positive about GW releases, only does that because they’re actually fans of GW’s products and settings. They actually enjoy them and think they’re fun.
Crazy I know … but it could be true.
Plausible. I too have a similar theory that everyone who is also negative about GW releases, only does that because they’re actually fans of GW’s products and settings. They actually enjoy them and think they could be MORE fun.
Crazy I know … but it could be true. But the massive piles of shame, thousands of online posts, and even nicely packed armies ready to play might lend credence to it. Some even have proof on their blogs and youtube channels!!?!!!
ClockworkZion wrote: Dude collabed with Arch post Arch's bigotry being publically dragged out for everyone to see. Sorry, but birds of a feather and all that.
You sound like the people who spent ages trying to cancel Tex from the Black Pants Legion after he did a BattleTech video with Arch.
ClockworkZion wrote: Dude collabed with Arch post Arch's bigotry being publically dragged out for everyone to see. Sorry, but birds of a feather and all that.
You sound like the people who spent ages trying to cancel Tex from the Black Pants Legion after he did a BattleTech video with Arch.
Funny, you sound like you're just making excuses. TOC wasn't from outside the Warhammer Community so there is little to no chance he was unaware as the Battletech person was.
Even if you want to handwave that off, I don't see the value in following any content creators who accuse anyone who has a postive opinion as "shills" and claims to be an objective arbitrator of what is Warhammer.
never like, never subscribe, that's how I always prefer my Youtube content. Most of these tubers' content just isnt noteworthy and smells of a need for being spammy and argumentative for ego reasons.
ClockworkZion wrote: Dude collabed with Arch post Arch's bigotry being publically dragged out for everyone to see. Sorry, but birds of a feather and all that.
You sound like the people who spent ages trying to cancel Tex from the Black Pants Legion after he did a BattleTech video with Arch.
Funny, you sound like you're just making excuses. TOC wasn't from outside the Warhammer Community so there is little to no chance he was unaware as the Battletech person was.
Even if you want to handwave that off, I don't see the value in following any content creators who accuse anyone who has a postive opinion as "shills" and claims to be an objective arbitrator of what is Warhammer.
Is anyone asking you to follow their content? Simply posting an on topic video link doesn't do that. You're not even obligated to give it a view.
But that would mean that the people complaining about models and the people complaining about people complaining about models (and peripherally related content creators verboten by association as per Designated Hate Directive 291.65.17) have something else in common! Besides complaining of course. It's almost like we all came to this forum for the same reasons. Weird!
Forgeworld ran heresy felt massively different from 40k stuff, which for me personally was a large part of the appeal. Since 8th dropped it had a different rule set, it’s different lore as well.
An even bigger part is the aesthetic. It’s grungier and simpler, most things feel more practical and less zany, which isn’t bad, I appreciate it in my 40k but not really in heresy. The new praetors and to an extent the mk6 with their vox, it just feels entirely different from the Horus heresy that was seperate from 40k. The original praetors feel like soldiers with slightly fancier armor and some nice gear, I like that. I don’t want each one to be this insane shambling pile of medals trophy racks and skull mounted plumes, more is less.
My answer to the Praetors bling level would be to stick with the existing FW Praetors (who don't seem to be going anywhere) or to kitbash your own.
I don't think the base MkVI is too much as it's pretty empty to allow people room for stuff like icons or freehand, but I'm sure someone will find something about it they don't like.
Honestly I'm still looking more at MkIV but that might be because Word Bearers and Night Lords both have more models in MkIV than anything else.
Thanks for the link and I finally got the chance to watch it. He does a good and fair reasoned approach to analyzing the reception to the model and, while I had jumped to the AOS/40k stylistic connections, I hadn't thought of Blanche. I do see the influence in the new praetor designs and I wonder if the polarizing thoughts on Blanche's early RT concept art line up with opinions on these new praetors more than just plain coincidence would indicate.
Forgeworld ran heresy felt massively different from 40k stuff, which for me personally was a large part of the appeal. Since 8th dropped it had a different rule set, it’s different lore as well.
An even bigger part is the aesthetic. It’s grungier and simpler, most things feel more practical and less zany, which isn’t bad, I appreciate it in my 40k but not really in heresy. The new praetors and to an extent the mk6 with their vox, it just feels entirely different from the Horus heresy that was seperate from 40k. The original praetors feel like soldiers with slightly fancier armor and some nice gear, I like that. I don’t want each one to be this insane shambling pile of medals trophy racks and skull mounted plumes, more is less.
Some good points. To add to what I previously posted above a second ago, what are your thoughts on Blanche style asthetics in 40k models?
A lot of people here are unable to see beyond the exact presentation GW has chosen for these models. I expect that a lot of the haters will end up liking them once they'll see people doing some minor conversions and different paintjobs. There is nothing fundamentally different in the base models compared to FW marine characters beyond these having slightly better proportions.
I have a large blood angels force collected since the heresy started, and all the black books.
I have never played a game.
This is a passion project, returning to my original army in RT era 1990.
For the new release.
I will not be buying infantry, wrong scale.
I may buy vehicles but it depends if they change the scale or style on them as well.
The style of the praetors does not match anything that has come before and they are in no way shape or form ‘generic’, where 1-2 add ons/conversions/bits and they could fit in any legion.
But I and I feel, the rest of current heresy players and collectors are in no way shape or form, who GW is aiming to sell any future models to.
Keep the scale the same, tone down the characters. I, and most current heresy devotees would have been buying multiples of the new box set.
Why did both of these praetors require a tactical rock? For feth sake its so damn tacky. They literally cannot make a character without slapping one needlessly under their feet. I'm so over GW designers.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Why did both of these praetors require a tactical rock? For feth sake its so damn tacky. They literally cannot make a character without slapping one needlessly under their feet. I'm so over GW designers.
The style of the praetors does not match anything that has come before and they are in no way shape or form ‘generic’, where 1-2 add ons/conversions/bits and they could fit in any legion.
The proportions and ostentatious decor of the leaked Emperor's Children praetor that is supposedly also generic seem to indicate further deviation from classic Horus Heresy as further characters are released.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Why did both of these praetors require a tactical rock? For feth sake its so damn tacky. They literally cannot make a character without slapping one needlessly under their feet. I'm so over GW designers.
Because tactical rocks make the model more Warhammer!
Forgeworld ran heresy felt massively different from 40k stuff, which for me personally was a large part of the appeal. Since 8th dropped it had a different rule set, it’s different lore as well.
An even bigger part is the aesthetic. It’s grungier and simpler, most things feel more practical and less zany, which isn’t bad, I appreciate it in my 40k but not really in heresy. The new praetors and to an extent the mk6 with their vox, it just feels entirely different from the Horus heresy that was seperate from 40k. The original praetors feel like soldiers with slightly fancier armor and some nice gear, I like that. I don’t want each one to be this insane shambling pile of medals trophy racks and skull mounted plumes, more is less.
Are we looking at the same models? The FW stuff is brimming with little bits and tassels. Constantin Valdor is so over designed that he put's recent 40K models to shame.
Forgeworld ran heresy felt massively different from 40k stuff, which for me personally was a large part of the appeal. Since 8th dropped it had a different rule set, it’s different lore as well.
An even bigger part is the aesthetic. It’s grungier and simpler, most things feel more practical and less zany, which isn’t bad, I appreciate it in my 40k but not really in heresy. The new praetors and to an extent the mk6 with their vox, it just feels entirely different from the Horus heresy that was seperate from 40k. The original praetors feel like soldiers with slightly fancier armor and some nice gear, I like that. I don’t want each one to be this insane shambling pile of medals trophy racks and skull mounted plumes, more is less.
Are we looking at the same models? The FW stuff is brimming with little bits and tassels. Constantin Valdor is so over designed that he put's recent 40K models to shame.
Constantine Valdor, the Captain General of the Custodian Guard (the Emperor's personal guard). Next example, that isn't one of the most important members of the Imperium or a Primarch?
Forgeworld ran heresy felt massively different from 40k stuff, which for me personally was a large part of the appeal. Since 8th dropped it had a different rule set, it’s different lore as well.
An even bigger part is the aesthetic. It’s grungier and simpler, most things feel more practical and less zany, which isn’t bad, I appreciate it in my 40k but not really in heresy. The new praetors and to an extent the mk6 with their vox, it just feels entirely different from the Horus heresy that was seperate from 40k. The original praetors feel like soldiers with slightly fancier armor and some nice gear, I like that. I don’t want each one to be this insane shambling pile of medals trophy racks and skull mounted plumes, more is less.
Are we looking at the same models? The FW stuff is brimming with little bits and tassels. Constantin Valdor is so over designed that he put's recent 40K models to shame.
Constantine Valdor, the Captain General of the Custodian Guard (the Emperor's personal guard). Next example, that isn't one of the most important members of the Imperium or a Primarch?
I mean Praetors are the top of the top of the Legion. They are not far down the pecking order. They have access to the best armour the legion can make, to their own specifications. And I’m sure some of them were gaudy as hell.
I’m not particularly keen on either of the new models, but I like a lot of the parts of them. They might not work for every legion, or the standard idea for every legion, but I don’t think the original resin ones did either. The power armour guy looks great as a Death Guard, but he doesn’t fit my idea of an Emperors Children praetor particularly well.
It’s a crying shame there aren’t many Space Marine models available so people can convert their own characters. Everyone is 100% forced to use a model they don’t like and post an essay about it online. Tragic. If only there were other choices…
JohnnyHell wrote: It’s a crying shame there aren’t many Space Marine models available so people can convert their own characters. Everyone is 100% forced to use a model they don’t like and post an essay about it online. Tragic. If only there were other choices…
To the first part, I guess it's a good thing nobody has said that, then . I mean, other than the quoted post.
Forgeworld ran heresy felt massively different from 40k stuff, which for me personally was a large part of the appeal. Since 8th dropped it had a different rule set, it’s different lore as well.
An even bigger part is the aesthetic. It’s grungier and simpler, most things feel more practical and less zany, which isn’t bad, I appreciate it in my 40k but not really in heresy. The new praetors and to an extent the mk6 with their vox, it just feels entirely different from the Horus heresy that was seperate from 40k. The original praetors feel like soldiers with slightly fancier armor and some nice gear, I like that. I don’t want each one to be this insane shambling pile of medals trophy racks and skull mounted plumes, more is less.
Are we looking at the same models? The FW stuff is brimming with little bits and tassels. Constantin Valdor is so over designed that he put's recent 40K models to shame.
Constantine Valdor, the Captain General of the Custodian Guard (the Emperor's personal guard). Next example, that isn't one of the most important members of the Imperium or a Primarch?
I’ll give you two.
How about the Thousand Sons praetor that’s smothered in bling
Both of these are of identical or similar rank and status to the two new plastic praetors. I suppose the real point is, there’s real variety in the range and if you want to try to prove everything looks a certain way (it doesn’t) then you can cherry pick examples that fit your idea of what the Horus Heresy should look like.
The proportions and ostentatious decor of the leaked Emperor's Children praetor that is supposedly also generic seem to indicate further deviation from classic Horus Heresy as further characters are released.
Spoiler:
Classic HH being exactly the same where some models had legs as thin as arms and others were taller than regular 40k Tacticals.
Forgeworld ran heresy felt massively different from 40k stuff, which for me personally was a large part of the appeal. Since 8th dropped it had a different rule set, it’s different lore as well.
An even bigger part is the aesthetic. It’s grungier and simpler, most things feel more practical and less zany, which isn’t bad, I appreciate it in my 40k but not really in heresy. The new praetors and to an extent the mk6 with their vox, it just feels entirely different from the Horus heresy that was seperate from 40k. The original praetors feel like soldiers with slightly fancier armor and some nice gear, I like that. I don’t want each one to be this insane shambling pile of medals trophy racks and skull mounted plumes, more is less.
Are we looking at the same models? The FW stuff is brimming with little bits and tassels. Constantin Valdor is so over designed that he put's recent 40K models to shame.
Constantine Valdor, the Captain General of the Custodian Guard (the Emperor's personal guard). Next example, that isn't one of the most important members of the Imperium or a Primarch?
I’ll give you two.
How about the Thousand Sons praetor that’s smothered in bling
Both of these are of identical or similar rank and status to the two new plastic praetors. I suppose the real point is, there’s real variety in the range and if you want to try to prove everything looks a certain way (it doesn’t) then you can cherry pick examples that fit your idea of what the Horus Heresy should look like.
Really, any of the praetor models besides the original 2 pack are equal or more ornate than these plastic ones. I think a bit of the oditity of the plastic o es is that they are generic in the sense that they lack legion specific icons, but have design language that doesn't seem to match the legions they are painted as. The Imperial fist praetor would fit much more naturally in White Scars or Emperors Children colors, while the axe praetor is decent as a Son of Horus it is almost meant to be a Death Guard model. Iron Hands would suit it pretty well too.
Mate, sorry but that's more than a bit reaching, you don't get to stand it next to a dour, minimalist DG bloke and say it's not the Heresy aesthetic if you can't also imagine it metallic purple and marching in the EC, cos that was the first thing I saw when I saw this model unveiled. Or in the pseudoRoman Ultramarines blue, crisp white and gold of the Heresy. They are equally 'Heresy' and equally it's aesthetic.
Endless white knighting around GW's products started making a lot more sense when you realise how many people involved in the hobby now also have shares in GW. Toxic positivity and white knighting are probably seen as protecting their investments, rather than as blind fanboyism.
Either this is a masterclass s**tpost or you need to take a really long look at how you process information in your day to day reasoning.
Macca of the Outer Circle is beyond comedy in his videos these days. The cause is well known, he's realized posting inflammatory, ranting, whinging nonsense generates views, comments and links all over the place, which feeds him more money, so, like some Alex Jones of Heresy, he posts daily diatribe to whip up conflict and when actually called on it, as he was recently, he then feigns offense and upset and posts again about how he's definitely not a whinger and would like to complain to the world about how much he isn't a whinger...
He's a gravity well of despair, naysaying and nitpicking, he's the Eeyore of Heresy content contributors and most of the rest have realized and ditched him.
Yeah so I don't think Reddit's optimism cult is anything to do with shares or whatever, but simply due to the fact a vast majority of the population has a verifiable optimism bias which is then combined with reddit's ghoulish, cult of grinning martyrs culture which promotes "let people enjoy things" to ridiculous extremes.
Crimson wrote: Also, everyone note the dreaded 'tactical rock' on the FW model used as an example of the old school HH perfection...
Criticism is one thing, but manufactured grievances steeped in rank hypocrisy are getting really tiresome.
Nope, the rock is still fething stupid, but if we don't have a choice and every character comes equipped with one, yeah, I'd prefer the rest of the model not to look like it was covered in glue and dropped in the bits box. The original HH aesthetic is being trashed on for bright flashy designs and it is becoming abundantly clear that GW doesn't really care about marketing this edition towards older heresy players. It's gonna end up another meta dominated cheese fest, where a massive influx of competitive WAAC players are gonna flood the system and completely drive it's development by running broken lists until GW patches the game every 2 months and invalidates every $50 book they sell for all 25 factions.
If you think this game will be treated any differently than AOS or 40K now, I really struggle to see how you can have that opinion given the state of the previously mentioned games.
They run articles called "METAWATCH" for Christ's sake lol.
Crimson wrote: Also, everyone note the dreaded 'tactical rock' on the FW model used as an example of the old school HH perfection...
Criticism is one thing, but manufactured grievances steeped in rank hypocrisy are getting really tiresome.
Nope, the rock is still fething stupid, but if we don't have a choice and every character comes equipped with one, yeah, I'd prefer the rest of the model not to look like it was covered in glue and dropped in the bits box. The original HH aesthetic is being trashed on for bright flashy designs and it is becoming abundantly clear that GW doesn't really care about marketing this edition towards older heresy players. It's gonna end up another meta dominated cheese fest, where a massive influx of competitive WAAC players are gonna flood the system and completely drive it's development by running broken lists until GW patches the game every 2 months and invalidates every $50 book they sell for all 25 factions.
If you think this game will be treated any differently than AOS or 40K now, I really struggle to see how you can have that opinion given the state of the previously mentioned games.
They run articles called "METAWATCH" for Christ's sake lol.
I feel like this post needs your avatar to have that smile flipped upside down. Yes, that's not topical but to see someone with a smiling avatar being this negative in their assumptions was a little distracting.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Maybe it'll just turn out amazing. But based on how GW have operated their games for the past years I highly doubt it's going to be any different.
So I don't see the point in blindly hoping for something when evidence suggests otherwise.
The smile is how I used to feel about HH and GW in general...those were happier times lol.
I'm going in more interested in the models than I am about the game at the moment. Mostly because it's easier to manage my expectations and keep them very low regarding rules.
Do we know for sure if GW's studio wrote the game or if FW did and the studio is just providing model support?
RazorEdge wrote: Rumors say they trasferred or integrated the "Horus Heresy Rules Team" from FW to the GW main Studio.
Considering the main studio is split into AoS and 40k that could mean that 30k is largely autonomous as a rules team which could be good for people who like it as it is. That said the move does put them under the same management team as the other games which could be bad.
blood reaper wrote: Yeah so I don't think Reddit's optimism cult is anything to do with shares or whatever, but simply due to the fact a vast majority of the population has a verifiable optimism bias which is then combined with reddit's ghoulish, cult of grinning martyrs culture which promotes "let people enjoy things" to ridiculous extremes.
Reddit communities are all a big circlejerk and everyone who breaks it (or tries) is mobbed until they leave (with those who are not regulars falling under the train as they often don't know what the current theme is about)
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Maybe it'll just turn out amazing. But based on how GW have operated their games for the past years I highly doubt it's going to be any different.
So I don't see the point in blindly hoping for something when evidence suggests otherwise.
The smile is how I used to feel about HH and GW in general...those were happier times lol.
I'm going in more interested in the models than I am about the game at the moment. Mostly because it's easier to manage my expectations and keep them very low regarding rules.
Do we know for sure if GW's studio wrote the game or if FW did and the studio is just providing model support?
RazorEdge wrote:Rumors say they trasferred or integrated the "Horus Heresy Rules Team" from FW to the GW main Studio.
The Heresy remains the property of Forge World. Rules were written by the FW team, miniatures, despite being plastic, are still also FW just as the Titanicus and Necromunda plastics are FW.
The old division of plastic and resin is being phased out. Forge World has oversight over 'specialist' and 'historic' games, Citadel has control over the resins for 40k, AoS and their rules in these games. This is why if you look at the main GW shop page for tyranids right now, you can see the previously 'Forge World' resins listed as 'expert level kits'.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Maybe it'll just turn out amazing. But based on how GW have operated their games for the past years I highly doubt it's going to be any different.
So I don't see the point in blindly hoping for something when evidence suggests otherwise.
The smile is how I used to feel about HH and GW in general...those were happier times lol.
I'm going in more interested in the models than I am about the game at the moment. Mostly because it's easier to manage my expectations and keep them very low regarding rules.
Do we know for sure if GW's studio wrote the game or if FW did and the studio is just providing model support?
RazorEdge wrote:Rumors say they trasferred or integrated the "Horus Heresy Rules Team" from FW to the GW main Studio.
The Heresy remains the property of Forge World. Rules were written by the FW team, miniatures, despite being plastic, are still also FW just as the Titanicus and Necromunda plastics are FW.
The old division of plastic and resin is being phased out. Forge World has oversight over 'specialist' and 'historic' games, Citadel has control over the resins for 40k, AoS and their rules in these games. This is why if you look at the main GW shop page for tyranids right now, you can see the previously 'Forge World' resins listed as 'expert level kits'.
Yeah, FW has become the "Specialist Games" team, I was just curious who took over the HH rules or if it stayed with FW namely because it if stayed with the FW team then people can probably relax a bit because it's not the same people writing 40k.
And the FW kits are only on the GW site if you're set to GB. For the rest of the world they're through the FW site only.
I’ll repost this from earlier in the thread on where 30k sits, departmentally
With thanks to Petitioner's City who posted this on B&C:
So I think the big answer is given to us on a monthly basis, namely Andy Hoare. Now he manages six games (AT, AI, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, The Old World and Heresy). Given that Andy Hoare runs heresy, I think it's pretty clear its his team of rules writers who will also be working on Heresy (especially given that they work on one heresy game, already!). That's:
- Barnes (whose career includes as mentioned above a lot of FFG work with Hoare and Bligh, and since joining SG, Necromunda, AI, AT, under Hoare).
- Jonathan Taylor-Yorke (very prominent in SG media about 2017-19 for ATand Necromunda, but also one of the leads on AI and BB 2nd edition last year; his facebook currently shows a lot of Old World love too)
- Tom Clarke (who joined SG in March 2018, after leaving his Phd - check out his Twitter, this great Voxcast interview. You can also read his Grandmaster series on AT.)
Barnes, JTY and Clarke have consistently worked together on the other SG games - AI, AT, Necromunda and Blood Bowl - under Andy Hoare. So it makes sense - after Hoare took over Heresy in the year prior to the pandemic (after the 2019 weekender when he isn't in the Heresy seminars, or at the latest after Anuj Malhotra had his final day in November 2020) - they also moved "over" to work on HH, as they also seem to be doing for TOW.
TBH, I am not sure if Wyllie are still with FW, though, but Anuj's message does suggest that he still was at the end of 2020. However it is clear now that his former co-writer, Hoare, is his boss, if he is still in the studio. And Hoare doesn't seem like the person to leave Neil alone on the project, especially as he has the aforementioned "team" of reliable collaborators who were (and potentially still are) seemingly in the same room (if Hewitt's description of FW from 2017 is correct - "Forge World, everyone is all in one room.")
and
But more seriously, I play - and rewrite for my group - Necromunda, I love the old (sometimes spotty) FFG books, and am very familiar with their (often flawed, yet still brilliant) work.
But for me thats ok. What matters always is the world building and imagination of the games - and that’s something SG have in spades. You see what this has done with Necromunda - where the FFG supplement approach hasn't yielded a strong game, per se, but such a strong world-building that emulates a RPG model. Despite the former, and perhaps because of the latter, people build and play, irrespective of the game's shaky state, and it's become a huge success. AI and AT and BB don't have a patch on how messy Necromunda is, but overall each are strong games - if not "competitive" or "perfect" games, as such. But as we know, neither quite was heresy itself.
I guess heresy has the issue of somehow being both a fluff-driven, primarily campaign-playtested, non-competitve game - and a competitive game where people extensively mathshammer everything about it so as to create the most monster lists possible.
In Necromunda the game breaks I think when the latter occurs - when gangs with too many credits buy things with too many flawed or ott rules and make too easy monsters. However, the errant rules can just be "for he arbitrator" to smooth over, but that becomes harder the larger the game, the more reticent the playing group to such changes or the more competitive the environment.
It will be cool to see where the game goes, and what the studio's inclination is - and if those rumoured three ways to play really come into the game.
So fears of the 40k team screwing the whole thing up are a bit unfounded and the game is at least in the same hands as the people who've been writing it for a while now (if not the entire time)?
RazorEdge wrote: The only difference is that they possible sit now in the same "room" of the "GW Studio" with the 40k Rule Team, the AoS Rule Team and the WD Team.
I'd argue the real difference is that management is likely more directly involved with them more than them being able to swap rules ideas with the other teams easier.
RazorEdge wrote: The only difference is that they possible sit now in the same "room" of the "GW Studio" with the 40k Rule Team, the AoS Rule Team and the WD Team.
Having sat a fair few times in Bugmans and asked various staff, no, the FW team sits as one creative group, sculptors, rules writers, graphics, fiction writers etc, bouncing ideas off each other. The Citadel (principal warhammer AoS/40k) teams do not, they are siloed, their writers are presented models and instructed to write about them. They are located in different areas of the facility on Willow Road.
RazorEdge wrote: The only difference is that they possible sit now in the same "room" of the "GW Studio" with the 40k Rule Team, the AoS Rule Team and the WD Team.
Having sat a fair few times in Bugmans and asked various staff, no, the FW team sits as one creative group, sculptors, rules writers, graphics, fiction writers etc, bouncing ideas off each other. The Citadel (principal warhammer AoS/40k) teams do not, they are siloed, their writers are presented models and instructed to write about them. They are located in different areas of the facility on Willow Road.
If reports are to be believed that changed during Covid.
Crimson wrote: Also, everyone note the dreaded 'tactical rock' on the FW model used as an example of the old school HH perfection...
Criticism is one thing, but manufactured grievances steeped in rank hypocrisy are getting really tiresome.
Nope, the rock is still fething stupid, but if we don't have a choice and every character comes equipped with one, yeah, I'd prefer the rest of the model not to look like it was covered in glue and dropped in the bits box. The original HH aesthetic is being trashed on for bright flashy designs and it is becoming abundantly clear that GW doesn't really care about marketing this edition towards older heresy players. It's gonna end up another meta dominated cheese fest, where a massive influx of competitive WAAC players are gonna flood the system and completely drive it's development by running broken lists until GW patches the game every 2 months and invalidates every $50 book they sell for all 25 factions.
If you think this game will be treated any differently than AOS or 40K now, I really struggle to see how you can have that opinion given the state of the previously mentioned games.
They run articles called "METAWATCH" for Christ's sake lol.
What if I really like 40K and AoS?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Maybe it'll just turn out amazing. But based on how GW have operated their games for the past years I highly doubt it's going to be any different.
So I don't see the point in blindly hoping for something when evidence suggests otherwise.
The smile is how I used to feel about HH and GW in general...those were happier times lol.
If the hobby is making you unhappy, why do you continue to expose yourself to it? There must be many other things that you could do, that wouldn't keep you in a negative mindset?
If you enjoy those games all the better for you. I sold out of 30K earlier last year, so I honestly haven't stuck around. I want to though, I love the setting. Honestly since Alan Bligh passed, the game has been going steadily downhill. The last couple black books were....something, and the lack of support, the massive price hikes, and crap rules coming out of their "team" were what drove me to sell everything.
it's too early to tell what the GW/FW corperate reorg is going to be like for the HH game. there could be good, there could be bad, my guess is it'll be a mix of the two.
BrianDavion wrote: it's too early to tell what the GW/FW corperate reorg is going to be like for the HH game. there could be good, there could be bad, my guess is it'll be a mix of the two.
RazorEdge wrote: The only difference is that they possible sit now in the same "room" of the "GW Studio" with the 40k Rule Team, the AoS Rule Team and the WD Team.
Having sat a fair few times in Bugmans and asked various staff, no, the FW team sits as one creative group, sculptors, rules writers, graphics, fiction writers etc, bouncing ideas off each other. The Citadel (principal warhammer AoS/40k) teams do not, they are siloed, their writers are presented models and instructed to write about them. They are located in different areas of the facility on Willow Road.
Sounds to me like the pre-Covid / pre-2020 situtation, when also the WD-Team was seperate.
RazorEdge wrote: The only difference is that they possible sit now in the same "room" of the "GW Studio" with the 40k Rule Team, the AoS Rule Team and the WD Team.
Having sat a fair few times in Bugmans and asked various staff, no, the FW team sits as one creative group, sculptors, rules writers, graphics, fiction writers etc, bouncing ideas off each other. The Citadel (principal warhammer AoS/40k) teams do not, they are siloed, their writers are presented models and instructed to write about them. They are located in different areas of the facility on Willow Road.
Sounds to me like the pre-Covid / pre-2020 situtation, when also the WD-Team was seperate.
I was literally sat with some people in Bugmans early last month mate.
RazorEdge wrote: The only difference is that they possible sit now in the same "room" of the "GW Studio" with the 40k Rule Team, the AoS Rule Team and the WD Team.
Having sat a fair few times in Bugmans and asked various staff, no, the FW team sits as one creative group, sculptors, rules writers, graphics, fiction writers etc, bouncing ideas off each other. The Citadel (principal warhammer AoS/40k) teams do not, they are siloed, their writers are presented models and instructed to write about them. They are located in different areas of the facility on Willow Road.
Sounds to me like the pre-Covid / pre-2020 situtation, when also the WD-Team was seperate.
I was literally sat with some people in Bugmans early last month mate.
eaither way we'll have to see if the HH is given the same treatment or if GW respects their collaborative approuch *shrugs*
One of my favorite models from the HH line is the Mastadon. Lovely model, really fun to play. But, the Resin was a big put off for me. When I had mine for my Ultramarines force, it took my Resin build-bot over 14 hours just to get it built and he burned himself several times trying to get the parts to fit.
What is the likelihood that the Fellblade, Mastadon and other similar size vehicles *might* come into plastic? Do we know that there is a definat plan to bring the rest of the line to Plastic, or will there just be a few models (like these, the Sokar, Thunderhawk, etc) that will remain in plastic? Will the answer to this question depend on how well 2nd edition sells?
I don't expect answers, but I thought this might be an interesting line of discussion.
I know that I'm interested in HH again, and I'd love to get some of these models, especially if they came into plastic!
I'd be surprised if any of the larger units get ported to plastic. Things like Contemptors and Sicarans are some of FW's best-selling kits for both HH and 40k so porting them over is a no-brainer. The Deimos pattern vehicles are likewise very popular.
Kits that people tend to buy lots of are what is seemingly getting ported over and the only evidence anyone has for these new plastic kits is that the resin ones were removed from the FW store.
I'd guess the still resin variants of the Spartan, Sicaran and Deimos pattern Rhino chassis are the most likely bets for future kits.
The Saber and Arquitor share the Sicaran's styling. Alongside the Kratos they would give the HH a visually distinct family of tank designs. No idea how well there existing kits sell though.
The Fellblade and its variants would be great in plastic. But a Banblade sized kit would be a big step and I suspect the Kratos is intended to fill the big tank space(for now)
Gert wrote: I'd be surprised if any of the larger units get ported to plastic. Things like Contemptors and Sicarans are some of FW's best-selling kits for both HH and 40k so porting them over is a no-brainer. The Deimos pattern vehicles are likewise very popular.
Kits that people tend to buy lots of are what is seemingly getting ported over and the only evidence anyone has for these new plastic kits is that the resin ones were removed from the FW store.
depends on what you mean by "larger" I suppose. I mean... we're unlikely to see plastic titans and the primarchs will likely remain in resin (although if we get a future loyalist primarch model for 40k I'd not be too suprised to see a 40K/HH duel kit) my guess is forge world will offer "alternative legion sculpts" and upgrade bits, as well as some assorted lords of war etc.
I could see a Fellblade/Glaive/Falchion kit. Seeing as half the kit is based on the plastic Baneblade, it wouldn't be too crazy for them to make an upgrade sprue or 3 for it.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: I could see a Fellblade/Glaive/Falchion kit. Seeing as half the kit is based on the plastic Baneblade, it wouldn't be too crazy for them to make an upgrade sprue or 3 for it.
I could too TBH.
outside of Space Marines I'd not be suprised if Custodes see more of their HH stuff shifting to plastic, (in fact I expect long term what doesn't shift to plastic getting largely dropped)
I'm not saying this is my new favorite Land Raider, but it's got everything I wanted out of one*. Mk.III variation of crewman, slightly exposed wheels so its side armor doesn't scrape over the ground if it hits the bump, exposed top tracks, sponson mount with top and bottom connections**, and all of that in plastic. They even painted it yellow.
*I mean, I won't like the price. That'll be the only unfortunate thing about it.
**Standard for Land Raiders, luckily, but all to often absent on Predators.
Geifer wrote: I'm not saying this is my new favorite Land Raider, but it's got everything I wanted out of one*. Mk.III variation of crewman, slightly exposed wheels so its side armor doesn't scrape over the ground if it hits the bump, exposed top tracks, sponson mount with top and bottom connections**, and all of that in plastic. They even painted it yellow.
*I mean, I won't like the price. That'll be the only unfortunate thing about it.
**Standard for Land Raiders, luckily, but all to often absent on Predators.
Not to be that guy, but I think that's a MkII guy in the turret.
Geifer wrote: I'm not saying this is my new favorite Land Raider, but it's got everything I wanted out of one*. Mk.III variation of crewman, slightly exposed wheels so its side armor doesn't scrape over the ground if it hits the bump, exposed top tracks, sponson mount with top and bottom connections**, and all of that in plastic. They even painted it yellow.
*I mean, I won't like the price. That'll be the only unfortunate thing about it.
**Standard for Land Raiders, luckily, but all to often absent on Predators.
Not to be that guy, but I think that's a MkII guy in the turret.
I think its Mk 2 as well. And it look sooo good. Ugh I'm never going to be able to pick up that helmet off ebay; Mk 3 helmets are already impossible to find and they come in a 10 man box
Geifer wrote: I'm not saying this is my new favorite Land Raider, but it's got everything I wanted out of one*. Mk.III variation of crewman, slightly exposed wheels so its side armor doesn't scrape over the ground if it hits the bump, exposed top tracks, sponson mount with top and bottom connections**, and all of that in plastic. They even painted it yellow.
*I mean, I won't like the price. That'll be the only unfortunate thing about it.
**Standard for Land Raiders, luckily, but all to often absent on Predators.
Not to be that guy, but I think that's a MkII guy in the turret.
No worries. I didn't phrase that very well. I want Mk.III crew, and I don't really care if it's already Mk.III or something as easily converted as Mk.II. Mostly as long as the arms and back look suitably close to Mk.III, I'm good. Torso front and head are easily replaced with Mk.III bits.
Well, here comes the flood of nu-Heresy softies spoiled rotten by "easy track assembly" and associated "infrequent cursing and bleeding" and overall "less weight than a shot put".
gorgon wrote: Well, here comes the flood of nu-Heresy softies spoiled rotten by "easy track assembly" and associated "infrequent cursing and bleeding" and overall "less weight than a shot put".
If the kit didn't make you want to kill yourself, then you aren't a real Heresy Head.
gorgon wrote: Well, here comes the flood of nu-Heresy softies spoiled rotten by "easy track assembly" and associated "infrequent cursing and bleeding" and overall "less weight than a shot put".
If the kit didn't make you want to kill yourself, then you aren't a real Heresy Head.
gorgon wrote: Well, here comes the flood of nu-Heresy softies spoiled rotten by "easy track assembly" and associated "infrequent cursing and bleeding" and overall "less weight than a shot put".
If the kit didn't make you want to kill yourself, then you aren't a real Heresy Head.
In all seriousness, I have actually encountered people who scorned the advent of plastic kits for the HH because the price premium of Forge World kits "kept the poors out".
This is what I felt the plastic Land Raider always should have looked like. The proper successor to the RT one. I don't even play and I want one of these to paint for my IW!
Also confirms the rumour that it came with parts to make tank crew in MkIII armour. Same source for that also source of all the other release rumours.
For brevity the other rumours from that guy.
Spoiler:
June Releases
Launch Box "Heta-Gladius" £240
40 MkVI Marines
10 Cataphract Terminators
1 Spartan Land Raider
1 Contemptor Dreadnought
1 Imperial Fist Castellan
1 Sons of Horus / Trainer Praetor
"Age of Darkness" Rulebook
"Horus Heresy" Intro Booklet
"Battle for Heta-Gladius" Campaign Booklet
Other Stuff for new Players
Small Starter Set £40: (You're basically getting the rule book and other starter equipment for £4.00 here, the tac squad is £36)
10 MkVI Marines
Small Softcover Rulebook
Medium Starter Set £100:
20 MkVI Marines
5 Terminators (don't know if Cataphracts or Tartaros)
1 Contemptor Dreadnought (the Monopose one from Calth)
2 Characters
Small Softcover Rulebook
Large Set £180:
30 MkVI Marines
10 Terminators (don't know if Cataphracts or Tartaros)
1 Contemptor Dreadnought (the Monopose one from Calth)
2 Characters
Large Softcover Rulebook
Rulebook - £43
Releases for August:
Space Marine Legion Tactical Squad - £36 10 Models multipart in the same fashion like the Chaos Space Marines Common weapon options
Deimos Pattern Rhino - £31
Space Marine Legion Praetor - £22 Not the same Model than was already shown
Releases for September:
Deimos Pattern Predator - £39
Upgrade Spue Sons of Horus - £9.50
Upgrade Spue Imperial Fists - £9.50
Upgrade Spue Blood Angels - £9.50
Upgrade Spue Emperors Children - £9.50
Upgrade Spue White Scras - £9.50
Upgrade Spue World Eaters - £9.50 (I really hope it's got more heads than the Primaris ones..., I suspect this one will be the best seller of the bunch)
Releases without date:
Deimos Pattern Vindicator - £39
Kratos Battle Tank - £52.50
Land Raider - £52.50
Land Raider Spartan - £60
Contemptor Dreadnought - £35
Space Marine Tactical Squad + Rhino - £57
Deimos Pattern Rhino Suqadron - £87
Deimos Pattern Predator Squadron - £107
If you want an estimate of the cost savings from the launch box.
40 MkVI Marines - £36X4 = £144
10 Cataphract Terminators - Unknown, probably same as CSM, so £72 for 10
1 Spartan Land Raider - £60
1 Contemptor Dreadnought - £35
1 Imperial Fist Castellan ~£22
1 Sons of Horus / Trainer Praetor ~£22
"Age of Darkness" Rulebook - £43
Total cost separately = £398 along with the Heta-Gladius book and other assorted stuff like measures and dice. So about £158 in savings.
KidCthulhu wrote: This is what I felt the plastic Land Raider always should have looked like. The proper successor to the RT one. I don't even play and I want one of these to paint for my IW!
I can 100% subscribe to this. Except for the Iron Warriors part. I guess I can, like, 95% subscribe to this.
NightReconnaissance wrote: Also confirms the rumour that it came with parts to make tank crew in MkIII armour. Same source for that also source of all the other release rumours.
I don't see how it confirms that rumour when that isn't Mk3. The helmet has a single vision slit, has the armour bond down the centre of the helm, and the gauntlets don't cover the wrist enough. Mk2 and Mk3 are very similar, Mk3 being an up-armoured variant of Mk2 but the crewman there is definitely majority Mk2 plate.
NightReconnaissance wrote: Also confirms the rumour that it came with parts to make tank crew in MkIII armour. Same source for that also source of all the other release rumours.
I don't see how it confirms that rumour when that isn't Mk3. The helmet has a single vision slit, has the armour bond down the centre of the helm, and the gauntlets don't cover the wrist enough. Mk2 and Mk3 are very similar, Mk3 being an up-armoured variant of Mk2 but the crewman there is definitely majority Mk2 plate.
Spoiler:
The average person doesn't really know the difference between MKII and MKIII armour, the implication that there are leaks from from the printers who made up the promo material isn't really impacted by that. Guy saw a Marine helmet with a grill on it and said 'MKIII'. Neither would be expected given the lack of any MKII or MKIII marines at launch.
NightReconnaissance wrote: The average person doesn't really know the difference between MKII and MKIII armour, the implication that there are leaks from from the printers who made up the promo material isn't really impacted by that. Guy saw a Marine helmet with a grill on it and said 'MKIII'. Neither would be expected given the lack of any MKII or MKIII marines at launch.
The average person wouldn't know the difference between any kind of power armour so I don't buy that as a defence. And there are Mk3 Marines at launch because they already exist.
I still don't believe that list is accurate and it is entirely down to the Starter Sets being so massively out of line with the other main lines.
Also, these are leaks from who? Printers who made the promo material? GW isn't doing flyers for HH 2.0 and WD (IIRC) doesn't include pricing for kits anymore. And if they were printing the material, would they not have got the name right for the Spartan as well i.e. Spartan Assault Tank and not Spartan Land Raider?
Though the open door picture reminds me I have no idea where the crew sits in a land raider. Especially with the side hatches so far back, and then the engine.
Cylon-style single visor = MkII. my second favorite variety after MkV. Love this tank and as someone who's built a couple of resin Spartans, greatly looking forward to building a plastic one.
Now... give me plastic Storm Eagles and Fire Raptors!!!
Gert wrote: Much as I don't want to bring the discussion up again regarding Mk6 being too tall or whatever but:
Spoiler:
Those are the current Cataphractii models and unless the Spartan has been upscaled, them Marines are looking pretty normal height.
Interesting. But is clear the proportions have changed to be more reasonable and less top heavy. So how did they do it, without making them bigger? Or is that just a trick of the photo? How much bigger were Cataphractii compared to old plastics?
The top of a plastic Mk3 Marine's backpack sits just a little bit lower than the Termi pad tops.
As for proportions, if you compare the resin Mk4 to the plastic, the plastics have thicker legs and ankles so they don't seem as spindly. Mk3 is harder to tell the difference because it's all just chunks of armour apart from the helms which have built-in eye lenses, unlike the resin Mk3.
There will be also a set with different weapon options (in the same fashion like for Necromunda) which couldn't fit into the regulary Horus Heresy sprues.
Also a little correction about the rumor yesterday:
The Vehicle Sprues include options for MkIII and MkVI armours, not MkII...
As said earlier, the Cataphractii Terminators seems to be taller than the MkIV when the got released back in 2015 as noticed by me in an older WD featuring a Fallen Angels Army.
Spartan and Deimos Rhino based Vehicles will have options to build the Crew
with different armours (MkII and MkVI).
Those Compilation Books are a stop-gap for more Expansion releases with new
Unit options.
There exist plans for separate codex books for EVERY Space Marine Legion
which will released over the next years.
GW doesn't plan a 3 years Edition life time for Horus Heresy.
FW weapon packs for special and heavy weapons will sold regularly via the GW main shop after the release of HH as a new main game.
This is another test run to sell FW stuff via GW.
They plan to release certain smaller model parts which can be produced fast
and with lesser risk of miscasts.
Seems like the rumor is original from faeit
The rumour said MkII armour option on the spartan.
Other wise it isn't relevant, the "source" said there is another Armour Mark to build the crew member and the leaked pictures never showed a crew member on the Spartan.
gorgon wrote: Well, here comes the flood of nu-Heresy softies spoiled rotten by "easy track assembly" and associated "infrequent cursing and bleeding" and overall "less weight than a shot put".
If the kit didn't make you want to kill yourself, then you aren't a real Heresy Head.
I was the resin guy in our group. Those and fire rapters ugh feth them both. Same with warhound legs.
gorgon wrote: Well, here comes the flood of nu-Heresy softies spoiled rotten by "easy track assembly" and associated "infrequent cursing and bleeding" and overall "less weight than a shot put".
Pft.
If you didn't convert your Spartan from a Rhino and a Land Raider are you like, even a real gamer you $%^&ing casual.
It is 100% MKII. Argel Tal has the most recent sculpt of MKII that exists, and it has the same helmet design as the driver. Hopefully they do a full set within the year.
gorgon wrote: Well, here comes the flood of nu-Heresy softies spoiled rotten by "easy track assembly" and associated "infrequent cursing and bleeding" and overall "less weight than a shot put".
I sidestepped the issue by using alternative tracks. But I ensured I preserved the suffering by using an aftermarket track set for a.. Tiger II I think it was. You know, one of those kits where all the links are supplied separately on sprues and you have to assemble it yourself one link at a time...
gorgon wrote: Well, here comes the flood of nu-Heresy softies spoiled rotten by "easy track assembly" and associated "infrequent cursing and bleeding" and overall "less weight than a shot put".
Pft.
If you didn't convert your Spartan from a Rhino and a Land Raider are you like, even a real gamer you $%^&ing casual.
Wasn’t that the Claymore? I known I always got the Claymore and Spartan confused though.
GaroRobe wrote: Terminators manning guns? Early 40k was a lawless wasteland
And said gun was literally a single bolter, halving their firepower. Add to that thin armor plate that was literally useless besides obscuring gunner's sigh and the fact they somehow pressed trigger with power fists, and you got to wonder where 'verisimilitude' crowd was back then
Spartan looks great, and pleased with how Cataphractii looks alongside the Mark VI. The plastic Tartaros is still disappointingly diminutive but at least Cata holds up well.
Reposting this from B&C. With thanks to poster Joe
Looking through the list of kits allegedly shifting from resin to plastic that've been mentioned over the last year or so on here and via reliable sources on Discord, we're currently looking at the following sooner rather than later;
I've been wondering if Thallax were going to show up sooner rather than later, given the Skitarii change-up in 40k proper. Felt like they're de-eliting them in preparation for adding a larger Troop choice that wasn't a Servitor.
One thing I’ve never understood about the Horus Heresy, why isn’t the Egyptian themed legion the one with the Primarch named after an Egyptian god?
Anyway, the Spartan looks like a really nice kit. It makes me wonder if GW are going to reconsider their position on Primaris transports. I reckon they’d sell at least twice as many Spartans if Primaris could also use them in 40K.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: One thing I’ve never understood about the Horus Heresy, why isn’t the Egyptian themed legion the one with the Primarch named after an Egyptian god?
I dunno, why is one of the most important people in it named after a Zoroastrian demon?
MonkeyBallistic wrote: One thing I’ve never understood about the Horus Heresy, why isn’t the Egyptian themed legion the one with the Primarch named after an Egyptian god?
Horus was named long before the Thousand Sons were ancient Egyptian themed.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: One thing I’ve never understood about the Horus Heresy, why isn’t the Egyptian themed legion the one with the Primarch named after an Egyptian god?
That's like asking why the final legion was called Alpha!
Actually, the Alpha Legion took the name in opposition to a jesting insult from Guilliman that the XXth should be named the Omega Legion since they were the last Legion and Alpharius/Omegon were the last Primarchs to be (publicly) found. Alpharius and Guilliman, shockingly, didn't get along after that.
Gert wrote: Actually, the Alpha Legion took the name in opposition to a jesting insult from Guilliman that the XXth should be named the Omega Legion since they were the last Legion and Alpharius/Omegon were the last Primarchs to be (publicly) found. Alpharius and Guilliman, shockingly, didn't get along after that.
That's a pretty random retcon, considering the Alpha Legion was named before Roboute or Alpharius (let alone Omegon) existed
Voss wrote: That's a pretty random retcon, considering the Alpha Legion was named before Roboute or Alpharius (let alone Omegon) existed
Everything that has been added since Rogue Trader could be considered a random retcon. It seems to have disappeared from the Legion and Primarch pages on Lex so maybe I'm misremembering.
That being said, the bigger "retcon" would be that
Spoiler:
Alpharius was with the XXth from very early in the Crusade and it was Omegon that Horus encountered as the last Primarch.
Eh. The problem with those two (and their major captains) is they're so interchangeable that it doesn't matter which one is which, or what their status is.
They lean into horribly insulting twin thing (where they're treated as the same person) so hard that it doesn't matter.
Voss wrote: That's a pretty random retcon, considering the Alpha Legion was named before Roboute or Alpharius (let alone Omegon) existed
Everything that has been added since Rogue Trader could be considered a random retcon. It seems to have disappeared from the Legion and Primarch pages on Lex so maybe I'm misremembering.
That being said, the bigger "retcon" would be that
Spoiler:
Alpharius was with the XXth from very early in the Crusade and it was Omegon that Horus encountered as the last Primarch.
The validity of that bigger retcon is pretty shakey. It boils down to how much faith you put in the narrator
MonkeyBallistic wrote: One thing I’ve never understood about the Horus Heresy, why isn’t the Egyptian themed legion the one with the Primarch named after an Egyptian god?
Anyway, the Spartan looks like a really nice kit. It makes me wonder if GW are going to reconsider their position on Primaris transports. I reckon they’d sell at least twice as many Spartans if Primaris could also use them in 40K.
Because these are esoteric references to ancient cultures fractured by time and space.
Gert wrote: Actually, the Alpha Legion took the name in opposition to a jesting insult from Guilliman that the XXth should be named the Omega Legion since they were the last Legion and Alpharius/Omegon were the last Primarchs to be (publicly) found. Alpharius and Guilliman, shockingly, didn't get along after that.
So were the Legions all only named after re-uniting with their primarchs? Having two different pairs of primarchs liking to individually associate themselves with angels and wolves is interesting.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: One thing I’ve never understood about the Horus Heresy, why isn’t the Egyptian themed legion the one with the Primarch named after an Egyptian god?
Anyway, the Spartan looks like a really nice kit. It makes me wonder if GW are going to reconsider their position on Primaris transports. I reckon they’d sell at least twice as many Spartans if Primaris could also use them in 40K.
Because these are esoteric references to ancient cultures fractured by time and space.
Because they were named by game designers that thought the words sounded cool, back before google was around for quick and superficial research.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: One thing I’ve never understood about the Horus Heresy, why isn’t the Egyptian themed legion the one with the Primarch named after an Egyptian god?
Anyway, the Spartan looks like a really nice kit. It makes me wonder if GW are going to reconsider their position on Primaris transports. I reckon they’d sell at least twice as many Spartans if Primaris could also use them in 40K.
Because these are esoteric references to ancient cultures fractured by time and space.
Because they were named by game designers that thought the words sounded cool, back before google was around for quick and superficial research.
Gert wrote: Actually, the Alpha Legion took the name in opposition to a jesting insult from Guilliman that the XXth should be named the Omega Legion since they were the last Legion and Alpharius/Omegon were the last Primarchs to be (publicly) found. Alpharius and Guilliman, shockingly, didn't get along after that.
So were the Legions all only named after re-uniting with their primarchs? Having two different pairs of primarchs liking to individually associate themselves with angels and wolves is interesting.
Not at all. Legion/Chapter (and yes, those were interchangeable terms) names were a list (or, actually, an art spread of color schemes). Well, two lists. Loyalists and Traitors. Seven of the traitor legions were created as a group for the first Realm of Chaos book (TS and DG were added in the second, and I'm pretty sure weren't named in the first)
Primarchs were added to the background later.
In a few cases an 'original name' was added to the legion even later.
Most (not RG, IF or Sallies) of what were dubbed the 'First Founding' chapters were in the RT book as sample color schemes. Though that term wasn't used at the time, and other rulebooks (notably Warhammer Siege) explicitly labelled the ultramarines as a later chapter that had to prove itself by winning the Battle of Macragge against the Tyranids (at which point they were granted the world)
GW just picked the known chapters they liked, and rationalizations came later.
So were the Legions all only named after re-uniting with their primarchs? Having two different pairs of primarchs liking to individually associate themselves with angels and wolves is interesting.
Some of the Legions earned names before finding their Primarchs such as the Luna Wolves or the pre-Manus Xth the Stormwalkers. Most were just referred to as *Numeral* Legion. When they were reunited with their Primarchs all of the Legions got a name be it their first or a new name connected to their Primarch or new homeworld. That being said it was still common for the Legions to be referred to by their numeral rather than name.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: One thing I’ve never understood about the Horus Heresy, why isn’t the Egyptian themed legion the one with the Primarch named after an Egyptian god?
Anyway, the Spartan looks like a really nice kit. It makes me wonder if GW are going to reconsider their position on Primaris transports. I reckon they’d sell at least twice as many Spartans if Primaris could also use them in 40K.
Because these are esoteric references to ancient cultures fractured by time and space.
I like this answer. I always enjoy the little references to lost knowledge. There’s great little line in one of the black books about tigers being a mythical monster from ancient Terran legend.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: I like this answer. I always enjoy the little references to lost knowledge. There’s great little line in one of the black books about tigers being a mythical monster from ancient Terran legend.
In Book I Betrayal there is a refference that the emperor readed books like "De bello Gallico" and "New Model Army" which influenced him how to build up the Space Marine Legions.
So were the Legions all only named after re-uniting with their primarchs? Having two different pairs of primarchs liking to individually associate themselves with angels and wolves is interesting.
Some of the Legions earned names before finding their Primarchs such as the Luna Wolves or the pre-Manus Xth the Stormwalkers. Most were just referred to as *Numeral* Legion. When they were reunited with their Primarchs all of the Legions got a name be it their first or a new name connected to their Primarch or new homeworld. That being said it was still common for the Legions to be referred to by their numeral rather than name.
and as I know the Space Wolves (and Word Bearers?) maintained the orignal color scheme of the Legiones Astartes when they had only numeral "names" and worn all grey power armours?
MonkeyBallistic wrote: One thing I’ve never understood about the Horus Heresy, why isn’t the Egyptian themed legion the one with the Primarch named after an Egyptian god?
Anyway, the Spartan looks like a really nice kit. It makes me wonder if GW are going to reconsider their position on Primaris transports. I reckon they’d sell at least twice as many Spartans if Primaris could also use them in 40K.
Because these are esoteric references to ancient cultures fractured by time and space.
I like this answer. I always enjoy the little references to lost knowledge. There’s great little line in one of the black books about tigers being a mythical monster from ancient Terran legend.
Also the bit where the Mechanicus think that miles were large insects that inhabited the deserts of ancient terra, based solely off the six-legged M.U.L.E. Transport chassis they derived their walking tanks from. They at least got the cantankerous and stubborn part right though.
Loving these recent kit rumours! Caestus Assault Ram is such an iconic looking Marine transport, it goes perfectly together with how drop pods look. Happy to see it return.
tauist wrote: Loving these recent kit rumours! Caestus Assault Ram is such an iconic looking Marine transport, it goes perfectly together with how drop pods look. Happy to see it return.
And those mechanicum automata - dayum
Castaferrum Dreads tho?
I agree, the Caestus is the best-looking Marine flyer to me. Neither the Stormraven, Stormtalon, or Xiphon never looked that good to me, but I love the Caestus enough to build my own after FW discontinued it. It was a real pain in the zogström, but the finished article was worth it.
The basic Castraferrum dreadnought is a fairly old and lame plastic kit (the Venerable is far better) and since HH is probably the only chance we have of getting an updated version, I welcome it heartily. Especially if it has more weapon options, including Mortis variants.
tauist wrote: Loving these recent kit rumours! Caestus Assault Ram is such an iconic looking Marine transport, it goes perfectly together with how drop pods look. Happy to see it return.
And those mechanicum automata - dayum
Castaferrum Dreads tho?
I hope the Caestus returns, I printed 2 of them right before they were taken off.
Albertorius wrote: I mean, I know the Spartan by itself is just gonna cost at the very least 50% more than a Land Raider, and maybe even twice.
We were talking about the likely RRP the other night, and one buddy made the excellent suggestion that it'll be the same cost as the FW model, but spun as "but plastic."
I already decided against the box. and this reveal confirmed my decision was the right one. I'll just be buying them NuBeakies separately from ebay, and will get the books separately if I do decide to get into HH later.
All in all, I feel like HH is a scene I'm not going to be comfortable in, with my weird insistence of sticking mostly to RT era lore and all that. I'll just buy the minis and play oldhammer / KT21.
At current prices, and assuming no “new so of course it costs moar”?
40 Mk III Maureen’s will set you back £130. The 10 Termies £70
The now sold out “closest equivalent” Space Marine Heroes £32.50
Just there you’re really bloody nearly at £240. Like. £7.50 off.
With the Dread currently retailing at…well seems it no longer exists, but the other wee ones cost £36? Add in the rulebook (presuming it’s hardback and not the dinky version) and the Spartan, and the price could be worse.
Nice to see a clearer pic of the Contemptor. It looks infinitely better than the previous plastic one (even though I do actually quite like the last plastic one).
Albertorius wrote: I mean, I know the Spartan by itself is just gonna cost at the very least 50% more than a Land Raider, and maybe even twice.
We were talking about the likely RRP the other night, and one buddy made the excellent suggestion that it'll be the same cost as the FW model, but spun as "but plastic."
That is indeed an excellent point.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: At current prices, and assuming no “new so of course it costs moar”?
I mean, we can 100% assume that will not be the case...
I'm assuming that 10 beakies will go for about the same as 10 intercessors. The dread might cost less than the prim dread. Might. Termies seem to be the same cataphract sprues already released, so I'm guessing they'll release them again... but I'm also sure they will raise the price.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: At current prices, and assuming no “new so of course it costs moar”?
40 Mk III Maureen’s will set you back £130.
A note on that, Mk.III price is outdated and cheaper than the current standard for a ten man squad box. You want to look at the price Chaos Marines or Primaris boxes, which in € is a difference of 5€ per box.
Assault Intercessors are a bit more than standard Intercessors, so let's assume the MK6 will be the same price as the latter (£36).
Cataphractii are currently £40, but let's be generous and assume they won't get a price hike with the reboxing (even though they probably will).
The Contemptor is going to be a bit of a weird one, because the FW versions weren't actually that much more expensive than the crappy plastic one. Let's assume it goes up to £42 to 'match' those.
The Praetors lets say £22 each, since they're new but still 'Firstborn'.
The Spartan is the tricky one to guesstimate since there isn't really anything in plastic to compare it to. The Baneblade is still bigger, but it's also around a decade old at this point. If we account for New Model Pricing it's not hard to imagine it being about the same price, so let's say £90.
In total that comes to spot on £400, not including the rulebook, templates, dice, etc which would probably bump it up to around £450ish.
Considering they touted that boxes like Indomitus and Dominion net you around double the savings of buying in individually, the box being priced around £225-£250 doesn't seem too far off.
Yep, thats probably a $400 box set right there easy. With the new Necroumnda box being 299 USD vs the UK price of 180 GBP, and the HH box being rumored at 240 GBP, I would be surprised if its anything less than $390.
zedmeister wrote: Contemptor will probably be tomorrow's Heresy Thursday highlight
Which means that by the time of the HH section of their previews on the 7th, we'll have seen everything in the new box.
So much for the 'reveal'. Still, last time half the reveals were stuff we'd already seen, most of it officially.
Both the 40k box and the AoS box had a small wave of (possibly easy build) kits that came out as part of the edition launch. I'd guess they'll handle Horus Heresy that way. Get the launch box contents out of the way before Wrhammer Fest because that stuff got leaked and anyway, follow up with supplemental kits that come a week or two after the launch box and show those off at Warhammer Fest, use the event to kick off rules previews that will run until the pre-order of the launch box, and then follow up with a preview of the starter box(es) after they got their launch box sales.
WarCom wrote:Yes! That is the new boxed set for Warhammer: The Horus Heresy. It includes a whopping 40 Mark VI Space Marines, a plastic Spartan, and more. We'll have a closer look at the Contemptor Dreadnought tomorrow and even more to show off at Warhammer Fest
I'm guessing the kind of things we will see at warhammer fest will be:
-Add on packs to add special weapons (which previously would have been included in the set itself)
-Add on packs for legion specific bits
-Dice + reaction cards
-Forge world add ons for vehicles, for things like different contemptor weapons
-Relaunched forge world stuff
Despite the hefty price tag, the more I look at the content the more I’m thinking this is definitely going to find its market.
As a “one purchase and you’ve got the majority if not all you need to get started” deal, it doesn’t seem awful value - if your pockets are deep enough.
Yes you will most definitely spend more in the future. But as a starting point it’s pretty solid.
And I think we can make an argument the contents are ubiquitous and appealing enough for people already knees deep in the Heresy, either to add options to an existing force, or to start a new Legion.
Arguable counter point? Despite the set being pretty decent value (especially compared to preceding FW prices), the fact the price is still high enough to put it out of reach of folk.
Consider. Whilst by no means wealthy, I’m on a decent enough salary, with no kids and few enough month to month financial commitments that I could buy this. But. £240, even discounted, is still a pretty decent chunk of money. To buy it, would be to give up other potential luxury spends (such as wall art for my new place, new furniture, new washing machine*, plus days/evenings out. And so I for one am thinking thrice. If I was a more diligent painter (as in I could be arsed to paint at all) then sure, a set that size is at least a month’s fun of building and painting.
*I do consider a washing machine to ultimately be a luxury. I’m not above going to the laundrette to scrub my skivvies. Then again, I already own a tumble dryer, so seems daft to involve walking back with a bag of soggy togs, when I can just cough up a couple of hundred or so on a decent new machine.
Otherwise you didn't pick one of the worst possible examples to demolish your own point - both models have identical design language, with the difference being one being actually good model and paint scheme and the other being gakky 
