I would refuse to play against it, until I see the updated rules. For armies that rely on S8 weapons for anti-tank, it's just stupidly resilient. Stick a Techmarine in one, and it will repair faster than an entire battery of Exorcists can hurt it.
Well...atleast it does not have an Assault Ramp...annoying to kill though...
I'd the best use for it is to park it on an objective with some scouts or something inside to be able to effectively claim an objective that has no cover from enemy fire.
I would play against it once, then no more if its totally overpowered, though my guess is that it looks worse than it is.
I really wouldnt mind it for one or two friendly games as my nids and eldar have a few MC's and I like a challenge but after that, I think we would find it OP by a long shot and if you put it back on the table I would simply leave
Ya BA players are crap out of luck , Not Blood Angels compatible. Other then that its a large point sink 300 points ouch, yes I know you get protection agianst melta and lance weapons , as well as a -1 on the damage charts but imho its not worth the points and cargo capacity is 6. Go with any other land raider save the extra 50 points.
I would pay 300 points for a near-guaranteed objective capture if it came down to pure performance with no concept of overall balance, enjoyability or fun. If you do something wild and zany like put that thing in cover it's effectively invincible and simply not worth even trying to kill. Capacity of 6 is enough to have small unit of troops that basically gives you an objective forever.
I like it,not sure when i will be able to afford one though.I would be having several conversations with my friends at my flgc,as it is a beast with the special rules and people may/may not be ok with me fielding it in a list.The way i roll dice,combined with the way my luck runs,it would not kill much and would end up scrapped by turn 3/4 anyway.
Its so dumb it makes my head hurt. So against say,..... ORKS, how exactly do we take one out? Im curious. Because other then getting really lucking with a boss + pk/DCCW, Im failing to see how we would go about it. The TFC isnt so scary against Orks when its the dex version yes, but stuck inside an almost unbreakable LR, Im betting you guys would find that TFC a bit more scary.
It can still be Wrecked....by Lascannon.....wait no it cannot....you could immobilize and weapon destroy to death....it only has 3 weapons.....
Well a Railgun would kill it....question is does the Railgun get the +1 for AP1......
if all Melta bonuses are nerfed...like less than 6in gets an extra dice...it should not limit the AP1 bonus on the Damage table....?? Does it protect against AP1?
Orks could kill it with the Shock Attack Gun.....Not sure about Psykers....
Still a tough bastard with written all over it....i am usually a fan of FW models and rules....but this is a bit over the top
This thread is full of girlymen who are afraid of losing.
Use it! And use it often. It's one of the more silly things FW has released of late (not as silly as the Minotaur, mind you) - but I think it looks great. Who gives a damn what it's rules are - it's got a huge boss cannon on the front and cool looking armour.
The Achilles is one of the few units that gives Forgeworld a bad name, and mars their other perfectly fine units. IT's not just that it's powerful, it's simply not expensive enough for how powerful it is.
I wouldn't refuse to fight against it though. It would be great fun getting my Carnifexes close enough to wreck it.
@HBMC
Preach on, brotha!
Put on your big boy pants and play the game here, you cheese crying sissy-boys!
Haha, seriously though, it is fine. People get upset about everything that comes out and looks tough on paper. There are ways to beat it. And zoeys being made? Why, you still have one of the best weapons to destroy it.
It isn't tournament capable and it isn't that bad. A smart player finds a way to overcome instead of throwing a tantrum.
Besides, this isn't even as bad as some of FW's stuff. The old Krieg flame mortars that FORCED units to fall back with no check? Yeah.
Hades Breaching drill? 50 points, son. Much worse.
Dreadnaught drop pod? Give me the Achilles any day over an army of Dreads in Drop pods.
FW stuff is always either grossly over or underpowered, they make beautiful models and gak rules. For casual gaming, the Achiles is fine and I would love the chance to try and take it down with any army.
Big boy pants? Afraid of losing? Seriously? What crappy arguments.
It's overpowered cheese and not wanting to play against it is being intelligent. It's preemptively avoiding a ridiculous model and all the frustration that goes with it.
H.B.M.C. wrote:This thread is full of girlymen who are afraid of losing.
It's less a question of losing than it is of being boring. If the closest thing to winning against this unit is just ignoring it and letting it attack with impunity, that is bad game design.
Reecius wrote:Haha, seriously though, it is fine. People get upset about everything that comes out and looks tough on paper. There are ways to beat it. And zoeys being made? Why, you still have one of the best weapons to destroy it.
It isn't tournament capable and it isn't that bad. A smart player finds a way to overcome instead of throwing a tantrum.
Would you mind thinking about what you're saying instead of just accusing people of whining? We've been over this: if you're using one of the armies that relies upon S8 weapons for anti-tank work, the only way to reliably damage even one of these is to play another army.
Haha, seriously though, it is fine. People get upset about everything that comes out and looks tough on paper. There are ways to beat it. And zoeys being made? Why, you still have one of the best weapons to destroy it.
It isn't tournament capable and it isn't that bad. A smart player finds a way to overcome instead of throwing a tantrum.
You got that right man, when I look at it, it looks tough, but I always get that feeling of like on las-cannon or a rail-gun hitting it and blowing it to bits.
If it happens, it happens. Nothing in this game is invincible... well maybe an emperor titan.... hmmm....
Exactly, it is not invincible! Haha, and refusing to play it is such a wimpy way to play this game....it is a game after all!
And people, I and HBMC were being SARCASTIC! I know it is hard to pick up in the net, but come on, no need to get riled up.
If someone ever refused to play me because of a single model I would laugh. Find a way to win, every army in the game has a way to destroy this tank, or to contain it. If you don't see what it is, look harder.
Simply throwing your hands up and saying no, you won't play against it is the lazy man's way out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @AlexHelker
OK, I'll bite. Name an army and I will tell you how to destroy this tank. Maybe that will make your attitude less defeatist. And I don;t say that to insult you, please don't take it that way, but if you read what you have written, your attitude is just that.
Reecius wrote:OK, I'll bite. Name an army and I will tell you how to destroy this tank. Maybe that will make your attitude less defeatist. And I don;t say that to insult you, please don't take it that way, but if you read what you have written, your attitude is just that.
Reecius wrote:OK, I'll bite. Name an army and I will tell you how to destroy this tank. Maybe that will make your attitude less defeatist. And I don;t say that to insult you, please don't take it that way, but if you read what you have written, your attitude is just that.
Unfortunately, speaking like that is theorycrafting in a vacuum. I play Tyanids, and this thing is pretty much invincible.
Hive Guard? Strength 8, so it'll take a longass time.
Carnifexes? Good luck getting them near it with the rest of the army to worry about.
Zoanthropes in a pod? Guaranteed there will be a Librarian in there with a hood. Even then, their lance ability loses lance, to it's a bit harder to penetrate.
That said, I'd play against it. Variety is good, and having a tough nut to crack on occasion can be interesting. I'd honestly love trying to kill it, but I don't think I'd have much of a chance.
It doesn't matter if it's mathematically impossible or possible. It's not realistically probable and just frustrating to even deal with. Park one of these things in cover on an objective and it is for all intents and purposes invincible. At that point the best strategy is to simply not bother. No amount of shooting that can kill it is worth diverting from everything else on the board. One model and a cheap troops choice has effectively purchased you an objective.
This is not fun, and it's only practical to say 'No, I will not play against that.'
@SumYoungGuy
Wow. Well if that is how you faces challenges then I feel sorry for you.
@Loki
Really, every single solitary SM lis tin existence has a libby and that libby will always be within 24" of the Zoeys? I hope you see how inaccurate such a sweeping statement is. Zoeys will are still strength 10 ap1, that is the best thing you can get at range against this.
And you know what REALLY works, Trygons with adrenal glands. 7 attacks on the charge, rerolls to hit, average AP of 14. With that many attacks, you will average several pens. If the tank moves cruising speed, you dictating what it does and you still average two hits, plus you are faster.
And so what if Hive Guard take a long time to kill it? It is a 300 point tank! It should be hard to kill.
@Alex Holker
Sisters? Easy.
Cannoness with jump pack and master crafted eviscerator. Average AP: 13, with 4 attacks on the charge and a reroll, she will have a 10/36 chance of penning with every attack, which means that against a stationary target: almost assured a pen, against a 6" move, good odds, flat out: about 1/3 chance. Again, if you force the tank to move curising, it can only fire one weapon, the cannoness can go 2++ and absorb any heat (not to mention a seraphim squad to absorb wounds). Take 2 cannonesses and now you double your odds on a very mobile, stubborn, resilient platform. Before anyone tries to counter this, I run a triple raider wolf army and had two cannonesses destroy two LR's with disgusting ease (and no, I was not playing poorly or any such BS, so please don't try and shovel that my way). The math supports it and smart play will enable it to occur.
Also, you're three exorcists (which you should have) will average 8 hits, 1.3 glances and the ap1 mitigates the -1, so you will be stunning it consistently and either preventing it from moving or reducing it to one shot, possibly immobilizing it or destroying a weapon. Add in the pelthora of melta weapons and you will wear it down without much difficulty. And if you really want to get funky fresh: Penitent Engines, they will wreck this thing. A squad of three will take it down in HtH with little difficulty.
Now, while you all cry into your beers about the inhumanity of this vehicle, you all do realize that destroying a Monolith for strength 8 armies is usually harder as you don;t get a bonus for being an MC or for using a TH or Eviscerator, right? And monolith can't be stunned to death, you have to roll a 6 on the glance table with an AP1 weapon? Don't hear any complaints about Crons though!
Guys, this is one tank! It won't win the game, for crying out loud, ignore it if you are that worried about it and kill everything else, just like with a monolith. And, unlike a monolith, you will typically only see one of these.
And again, I am not trying to insult any of you personally, just having a laugh at the chicken little syndrome here. People freak out about models all the time. A super falcon in 4th ed took something like 100+ las cannon shots to reliably kill and you routinely fought 3 of those in tournaments. None of us rolled over and played dead then, we found a solution and played through it.
So don't worry about! Think of creative ways to contain it or destroy it instead of boohooing!
Reecius wrote:@Loki
Really, every single solitary SM lis tin existence has a libby and that libby will always be within 24" of the Zoeys? I hope you see how inaccurate such a sweeping statement is. Zoeys will are still strength 10 ap1, that is the best thing you can get at range against this.
Most Space Marine armies have a Librarian, yeah. And if they see Zoanthropes, they'd be dumb not to have him near that thing for added protection. He doesn't really need to make sure he's within 24" of the Zoanthropes if he stays with the Achilles.
Reecius wrote:And you know what REALLY works, Trygons with adrenal glands. 7 attacks on the charge, rerolls to hit, average AP of 14. With that many attacks, you will average several pens. If the tank moves cruising speed, you dictating what it does and you still average two hits, plus you are faster.
That gives it a base strength of 7. Even with the 2D6 to penetrate from being an MC, you have to be very lucky to kill the Achilles in one turn, especially thanks to having -1 on the damage table. And yes, one turn, because you can bet that Trygon will be public enemy #1 in the marine players next turn.
Reecius wrote:And so what if Hive Guard take a long time to kill it? It is a 300 point tank! It should be hard to kill.
A Trygon Prime is a 250 point monstrous creature, and bites it after 6 easy to make krak missile wounds. It takes far more S8 hits to reliably kill the Achilles.
The Achilles is just too hard to kill. Things like that aren't fun to play against. For many armies, in any objective based mission, if you stick a scoring unit in it, there's one objective they can't take, and for Capture and Control they can play for a draw at best. For KP games, you can deny opponents up to 3 KP's with it.
Too hard to kill. If it lost the -1 to damage results rule, or the immunity rules, it'd be fine. Both makes it stupid resilient. Against lascannons, it's twice as hard to kill as a Monolith for instance.
There are just too many ways it can be abused with the current mission objectives.
Sisters? Easy.
Cannoness with jump pack and master crafted eviscerator. Average AP: 13, with 4 attacks on the charge and a reroll, she will have a 10/36 chance of penning with every attack, which means that against a stationary target: almost assured a pen, against a 6" move, good odds, flat out: about 1/3 chance. Again, if you force the tank to move curising, it can only fire one weapon, the cannoness can go 2++ and absorb any heat (not to mention a seraphim squad to absorb wounds). Take 2 cannonesses and now you double your odds on a very mobile, stubborn, resilient platform. Before anyone tries to counter this, I run a triple raider wolf army and had two cannonesses destroy two LR's with disgusting ease (and no, I was not playing poorly or any such BS, so please don't try and shovel that my way). The math supports it and smart play will enable it to occur.
While possible, with two Cannonness Eviscerators, you need an average of 21.6 attacks to ensure one kill result against this thing assuming no movement. That goes to 43.2 if it moved at all, and 130 if it moved. With two Evisc Cannonnesses, that's 3, 6, and 16 charges with full attacks respectively to ensure destruction depending on movement rate. Double what it takes to kill a normal LR.
Also, you're three exorcists (which you should have) will average 8 hits, 1.3 glances and the ap1 mitigates the -1, so you will be stunning it consistently and either preventing it from moving or reducing it to one shot, possibly immobilizing it or destroying a weapon. Add in the pelthora of melta weapons and you will wear it down without much difficulty. And if you really want to get funky fresh: Penitent Engines, they will wreck this thing. A squad of three will take it down in HtH with little difficulty.
Unfotunately though it takes a huge number of weapons to deal with this thing. You need an average of 108 BS4 Exorcist missiles or Meltagun hits to plink it enough to ensure destruction of the TFC and two MM's and immobilize it. Against a normal LR you have a 1/54 chance of killing it outright without needing to strip everything. A normal BS4 Meltagun has just under a 1/5 chance to kill a normal Land Raider. With this thing, it becomes ridiculous.
And this is all assuming nothing has to get through a cover save.
Pentitent engines might be capable, but they are also grossly overcosted and it's highly likely they'll get blasted on the way in.
It's just too hard to kill, too good at holding objectives and keeping KP's safe from harm, with a huge threat radius and two exceptionally capable, if short-ish ranged AT guns.
you all do realize that destroying a Monolith for strength 8 armies is usually harder as you don;t get a bonus for being an MC or for using a TH or Eviscerator, right? And monolith can't be stunned to death, you have to roll a 6 on the glance table with an AP1 weapon? Don't hear any complaints about Crons though!
A monolith can't hit units 60" away and can't put out the same heavy AT fire, isn't safeguarding units on an objective, doesn't have smoke launchers, isn't hiding KP's, is much easier to destroy with S9+ weaponry, and isn't available to armies that can field large amounts of armor and capable assault troops and huge numbers of long range heavy weapons.
If you remember to 3E and 4E, there were tons of complaints about the monolith constantly. The only reason there aren't any now is that Necrons, as a whole, aren't exactly on the anywhere near the same competitive level as most other armies.
So don't worry about! Think of creative ways to contain it or destroy it instead of boohooing!
That's sort of the problem. It's not something you can just bring and throw down, it's something that needs to be tailored against, even at its huge point cost.
Reecius wrote:@Alex Holker
Sisters? Easy.
Cannoness with jump pack and master crafted eviscerator. Average AP: 13, with 4 attacks on the charge and a reroll, she will have a 10/36 chance of penning with every attack, which means that against a stationary target: almost assured a pen, against a 6" move, good odds, flat out: about 1/3 chance.
There's no reason for the vehicle to ever be stationary, since it can always fire all three guns while moving 6": one as normal, one for PotMS and a Subterrainean blast as a defensive weapon. That means an average of 2.25 hits on the charge, 0.63 penetrating hits and 0.31 glancing hits, and a 36% chance of doing any lasting damage.
Also, you're three exorcists (which you should have) will average 8 hits, 1.3 glances and the ap1 mitigates the -1, so you will be stunning it consistently and either preventing it from moving or reducing it to one shot, possibly immobilizing it or destroying a weapon. Add in the pelthora of melta weapons and you will wear it down without much difficulty. And if you really want to get funky fresh: Penitent Engines, they will wreck this thing. A squad of three will take it down in HtH with little difficulty.
You cannot stun it, because it has Extra Armour as standard. And even if you can consistently shake it, you've just tied up 400 points and 3 HS slots of long-range antitank to do a half-assed job of suppressing a 300 point, 1 HS slot tank for one turn. That's a losing proposition right from the start.
And Penitent Engines are AV11, open-topped walkers. How are you going to get them into melee with a vehicle armed with two twin-linked Multimeltas and a Thunderfire cannon?
My only point between the teasing, was that to just quit and take your models and go home is a bad attitude to have. What does that accomplish?
Equally so, refusing to NOT play with the Achilles when your opponent points out that both it is far too hard to kill (without a full seer council Eldar would have a lot of trouble) and would make for a less entertaining game, especially for them, and then telling them to suck it up and try is a bad attitude to have.
The Achilles is a strange beast. It really seems like it balanced with Apocalypse in mind, kind of like the Terminus pattern Land Raider. There's D strength weapons, and even multiple high strength weapons, being thrown around that can hurt it. Hell, even Tyranids can hurt it if they bring a Hierophant or barbed Hierodule and focus a round of Biocannon fire on it.
They should have just made it as a datasheet, instead of a heavy support entry.
i've fought against this beast before.... but my two vindicators and devistator squad with lascannons saw it's death by turn 4. so in my opinion not that powerful
Erm... I don't think I would play against it. It would tear my bikes to pieces and give my lr's a hard time due to the melta and the termies that pop out. On the plus side the chainfists should be able to tear it open.
On the other hand I wouldn't take it either. Reason? Land Raiders are transports and they need to deliver terminators, no assault ramps and minimal troop capacity means it fails doubly at this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but 4 av14 vehicles at 2250 seems a bit... off.
I would however consider trying it out, if for no other reason than to use the thunderfire as its the only way I know of that can by used with the da dex.
TyraelVladinhurst wrote:i've fought against this beast before.... but my two vindicators and devistator squad with lascannons saw it's death by turn 4. so in my opinion not that powerful
You are playing Space Marines. It's more balanced against armies like Space Marines or Imperial Guard (who have ready access to Str 9 and 10 weapons) than it is against armies that rely on Str 8 melta or lance weapons.
Visually: It's a bucket of suck - EVEN uglier than the showerguppy (storm raven hah! It doesn't strike fear into anyone. What does it do? Kill them through severe dehydration? After they've p*ssed themselves laughing to death?) skimmer the BA are getting. It's a brutal, lumpen and unlovely chunk of armour unworthy of the name 'tank'. I also note that they released this AFTER they released the one army that focuses on *lance weapons. A big one finger salute back atcha.
It's called an Achilles yet has no glaring weakness (R 10 would be appropriate). What are we supposed to do, wait for FW to miscast up a "Paris" class Tank destroyer?
TyraelVladinhurst wrote:i've fought against this beast before.... but my two vindicators and devistator squad with lascannons saw it's death by turn 4. so in my opinion not that powerful
You are playing Space Marines. It's more balanced against armies like Space Marines or Imperial Guard (who have ready access to Str 9 and 10 weapons) than it is against armies that rely on Str 8 melta or lance weapons.
true, however my nids did alright, managed to wreak it and seize the objective it was on... go go carnifex backed by hive tyrant and mass swarm of gaunts
I guess I would fight it. I'd probably lose and not like it too much, but nothing wrong with the odd challenge now and then. I kind of like the model as well.
How is not wanting to play against something that you know is unbalanced a worse attitude than someone trying to be smugly superior by saying 'you suck because you don't want things to be hard, waaah waaah'?
IMO it's damage output for it's cost is pretty low, it'd just be PITA to kill. I don't think it's broken.
Loaded down with unnecessary rules, and possibly not that fun to play against regularly though, possibly (though anything that takes a lot to kill like Seer Circuses aren't that fun to play against regularly so I'm still pretty ambivalent).
A pain to kill, but doesnt kill an awful lot while not dying
I'd have no problem playing against it. Complaining about it isnt stepping up and doing your level best to down it, or still defeat the army. Imbalanced games can be some ofthe most fun you can have.
TyraelVladinhurst wrote:i've fought against this beast before.... but my two vindicators and devistator squad with lascannons saw it's death by turn 4. so in my opinion not that powerful
So in your opinion...
three heavy support slots shooting at one for four turns = fair?
Enough with the mocking people. You can play your side of the coin with out being D-bags.
SumYungGui wrote:Big boy pants? Afraid of losing? Seriously? What crappy arguments.
We're not 'arguing' with you. We're 'mocking' you.
"Oh the noes! It's the cheesx0r! I refuse to play it."
So hilarious...
Ah, HBMC, always good for some one liners!
Guys, laugh about it. Seriously. People are getting mad about a toy.
Flacons were just as hard to kill in 4th ed, and we fought 3 of them as the tournament standard list. Some people cried cheese, one guy even made a literal cheese falcon (which was awesome!) but instead of throwing tantrums about how stupidly hard to kill they were, we broke down the math and determined the most efficient way of dealing with the Super Falcons of annoyingness for each army and we found ways to win. Same for Nidzilla, which was the other "unbeatbale" 4th ed army with "cheesey" units. We at Dakka figured out how to beat them when everyone else said it wasn't possible. That felt good! Better than crying about something being unfair and refusing to play. It was an enjoyable challenge to find a way to outplay the "super, cheesey, beardy, WAACY, no-fun army" of the day, just as it will be here.
If you don't try, then shame on you. At least give it a go instead of tucking tail and quitting before the game's begun. Where's your sense of pride? I bet all of you gents here are smart enough to come up with a way to at least contain this one model and find a way to have a good game of it if you believe you can. Just stun the dumb thing and that 300 point sick will fire one gun a turn, big deal. Kill the rest of the army and you'll be good to go. You don;t always have to destroy a tank to take it out of play. Just like Monoliths, or BT Raiders with Blessed Hulls against my Eldar, you can work around them. I have never lost to Crons and I think I have blown up a total of 2 Liths, ever. And this includes 4th ed when Crons were actually very powerful. Use some ingenuity to work around the problem. Quitting is a 100% guarantee to not beat it.
So anyway, sorry for rustling feathers, some of you seem to be taking the teasing personally, which you shouldn't. This is just the internet after all and most of us don't and will never know each other personally. So who cares what's said here! Take the useful information and junk the rest. (The useful information here being: don't quit before the battle's fought!)
SumYungGui wrote:Big boy pants? Afraid of losing? Seriously? What crappy arguments.
We're not 'arguing' with you. We're 'mocking' you.
"Oh the noes! It's the cheesx0r! I refuse to play it."
So hilarious...
Ah, HBMC, always good for some one liners!
Guys, laugh about it. Seriously. People are getting mad about a toy.
Flacons were just as hard to kill in 4th ed, and we fought 3 of them as the tournament standard list. Some people cried cheese, one guy even made a literal cheese falcon (which was awesome!) but instead of throwing tantrums about how stupidly hard to kill they were, we broke down the math and determined the most efficient way of dealing with the Super Falcons of annoyingness for each army and we found ways to win. Same for Nidzilla, which was the other "unbeatbale" 4th ed army with "cheesey" units. We at Dakka figured out how to beat them when everyone else said it wasn't possible. That felt good! Better than crying about something being unfair and refusing to play. It was an enjoyable challenge to find a way to outplay the "super, cheesey, beardy, WAACY, no-fun army" of the day, just as it will be here.
If you don't try, then shame on you. At least give it a go instead of tucking tail and quitting before the game's begun. Where's your sense of pride? I bet all of you gents here are smart enough to come up with a way to at least contain this one model and find a way to have a good game of it if you believe you can. Just stun the dumb thing and that 300 point sick will fire one gun a turn, big deal. Kill the rest of the army and you'll be good to go. You don;t always have to destroy a tank to take it out of play. Just like Monoliths, or BT Raiders with Blessed Hulls against my Eldar, you can work around them. I have never lost to Crons and I think I have blown up a total of 2 Liths, ever. And this includes 4th ed when Crons were actually very powerful. Use some ingenuity to work around the problem. Quitting is a 100% guarantee to not beat it.
So anyway, sorry for rustling feathers, some of you seem to be taking the teasing personally, which you shouldn't. This is just the internet after all and most of us don't and will never know each other personally. So who cares what's said here! Take the useful information and junk the rest. (The useful information here being: don't quit before the battle's fought!)
Yet you are talking codex standard things which where not, in my opinion; as ridiculous as this.
This however is a FW model and I as an opponent has the right to refuse to play with it. If I am playing an apoc game then sure...but I am talking a standard LFGS walk-in. Unless otherwise communicated I am expecting to play things out of standard 40k codex's and not pick and choose out of FW books.
Your opinion would be incorrect in this case. A super falcon took over 100 BS4 las cannon shots to reliably destroy baring great luck (I think we determined it was like 144 or something, can't remember). This does not.
But yeah, you are free to do whatever you want. You can refuse to play someone unless you write their army list for them to make sure you face only units you want to face if that is your choice.
Of course a reasonable request to not play something because you think it is unfun or what have you is fine and most people would be OK with that. But the attitude that people are taking here is defeatist. Try to play against it a few times before passing judgment based only on a stat line. Don't just refuse to try it out.
Anyway, I have said enough on the topic, you guys can go about your business how you please.
When I get my Achilles, I will call it "The right of passage." Boys who play against it with courage shall become men! Hahaha, and yes folks, that is a joke!
Reecius wrote:
Flacons were just as hard to kill in 4th ed, and we fought 3 of them as the tournament standard list.
And very few people enjoyed playing against them, even Phil Kelly admitted that the synergistic combo between Holofields and SMF was a mistake. It didn't enhance the game, it just made it frustrating. There's a reason that army flew to the top in the last 18 months of 4E.
Some people cried cheese, one guy even made a literal cheese falcon (which was awesome!) but instead of throwing tantrums about how stupidly hard to kill they were, we broke down the math and determined the most efficient way of dealing with the Super Falcons of annoyingness for each army and we found ways to win.
The issue there was that to take them down you just brought more of the same stuff you already did, Las/plas, and tried to clear a space around the falcon to avoid the cargo as it came out.
It wasn't impossible to beat, but it was unreasonably difficult.
If you don't try, then shame on you. At least give it a go instead of tucking tail and quitting before the game's begun. Where's your sense of pride? I bet all of you gents here are smart enough to come up with a way to at least contain this one model and find a way to have a good game of it if you believe you can. Just stun the dumb thing and that 300 point sick will fire one gun a turn, big deal. Kill the rest of the army and you'll be good to go. You don;t always have to destroy a tank to take it out of play. Just like Monoliths, or BT Raiders with Blessed Hulls against my Eldar, you can work around them. I have never lost to Crons and I think I have blown up a total of 2 Liths, ever. And this includes 4th ed when Crons were actually very powerful. Use some ingenuity to work around the problem. Quitting is a 100% guarantee to not beat it.
Again, there's a world of difference between Necrons and their monoliths and this thing. You aren't going to have to deal with assault troops and half a dozen other armored units when dealing with a Monolith, and can abuse the Phase Out rule, while Blessed Hull only makes any sort of difference against Lance weapons and makes an LRC basically the same price as an Achilles.
Yes one can be creative and come up with ways to kill it or work around it. The problem is this will likely require tailoring an army and either allowing the thing to have its merry way with your army or concentrating obscene amounts of firepower against it.
Most players would not have an adequate chance of dealing with this thing using a normal pickup game list. And that's the issue. I'm normally all for FW stuff, hell, I've got over a hundred Forgeworld models myself and like most of the rules. But this particular unit, along with the Caestus, Deathwind and Lucius pods just aren't fun to play against or particularly well balanced.
The fact that its harder to kill than a Baneblade for most armies is honestly an issue, and why people have a problem with it.
Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:Yet you are talking codex standard things which where not, in my opinion; as ridiculous as this.
This however is a FW model and I as an opponent has the right to refuse to play with it. If I am playing an apoc game then sure...but I am talking a standard LFGS walk-in. Unless otherwise communicated I am expecting to play things out of standard 40k codex's and not pick and choose out of FW books.
Actually, as long as it it not a super heavy, and the book states it is part of a normal force organization chart, it's doesn't require opponents permission any more than any other codex entry.
Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:Yet you are talking codex standard things which where not, in my opinion; as ridiculous as this.
This however is a FW model and I as an opponent has the right to refuse to play with it. If I am playing an apoc game then sure...but I am talking a standard LFGS walk-in. Unless otherwise communicated I am expecting to play things out of standard 40k codex's and not pick and choose out of FW books.
Actually, as long as it it not a super heavy, and the book states it is part of a normal force organization chart, it's doesn't require opponents permission any more than any other codex entry.
"I choose not to play against you."
Arguing permission from either side is asinine. EVERY GAME requires opponents permission. You can choose not to play.
Regarding the actual model itself. I'd play against it. I'd treat it like a Falcon; Ignore it as much as possible. I feel it's far more appropriate for Apoc though. Perhaps I get one of the cheaper Baneblade variants as a heavy slot as well?
Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:Yet you are talking codex standard things which where not, in my opinion; as ridiculous as this.
This however is a FW model and I as an opponent has the right to refuse to play with it. If I am playing an apoc game then sure...but I am talking a standard LFGS walk-in. Unless otherwise communicated I am expecting to play things out of standard 40k codex's and not pick and choose out of FW books.
Actually, as long as it it not a super heavy, and the book states it is part of a normal force organization chart, it's doesn't require opponents permission any more than any other codex entry.
I am fairly certain that one of the early pages in every FW book states that FW rules are optional and requires opponents permission.
Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:Yet you are talking codex standard things which where not, in my opinion; as ridiculous as this.
This however is a FW model and I as an opponent has the right to refuse to play with it. If I am playing an apoc game then sure...but I am talking a standard LFGS walk-in. Unless otherwise communicated I am expecting to play things out of standard 40k codex's and not pick and choose out of FW books.
Actually, as long as it it not a super heavy, and the book states it is part of a normal force organization chart, it's doesn't require opponents permission any more than any other codex entry.
I am fairly certain that one of the early pages in every FW book states that FW rules are optional and requires opponents permission.
They do not. They do have a section saying that you need other books to use what's in the IA book generally (I.E a rulebook), and that you should probably not try and bring a Reaver titan to a pickup game, but nothing saying one would need special permission for something that can be taken in a normal FoC.
Good Lord, we've found the blubberers. I bet you lot are the same guys who whined about BA deepstriking Land Raiders. What is so wrong with facing upto a challenge? H.B.M.C has got it dead on, nothing like being forced to earn that victory Or do you just want to face a hoard Eldar Guardian force with no heavy weapons. Oh dear, how hard it is to contain the mocking
Captain Jack wrote:Good Lord, we've found the blubberers. I bet you lot are the same guys who whined about BA deepstriking Land Raiders. What is so wrong with facing upto a challenge? H.B.M.C has got it dead on, nothing like being forced to earn that victory Or do you just want to face a hoard Eldar Guardian force with no heavy weapons. Oh dear, how hard it is to contain the mocking
There's a difference between a "challenge" and a crutch. The achilles is, for all practical purposes, a superheavy class vehicle. It has multiple powerful weapons, can target multiple units, can still fire while stunned, and is nigh impossible for many armies to overcome without tailoring. Would you feel just as enthused about an Eldar Scorpion or a Shadowsword in a normal game? If not, then why the support for the Achilles? Such superheavies are probably easier for most people to deal with than an Achilles, which is the problem.
So if people don't want to play against something that is in extended rules, which all gaming groups don't recognize equally, its fine to mock them for holding a different opinion?
Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:Yet you are talking codex standard things which where not, in my opinion; as ridiculous as this.
This however is a FW model and I as an opponent has the right to refuse to play with it. If I am playing an apoc game then sure...but I am talking a standard LFGS walk-in. Unless otherwise communicated I am expecting to play things out of standard 40k codex's and not pick and choose out of FW books.
Actually, as long as it it not a super heavy, and the book states it is part of a normal force organization chart, it's doesn't require opponents permission any more than any other codex entry.
Oh goody, so I can show up to any tournament with one of these things or any other non-super heavy.
Their is a level of expected knowladge in a tournament scene. General codeci are a given but FW rule sets and vehicles...sorry, no.
As far as a pick up game...I treat most pick up games as I would any serious game/tournament level in some occassions. If my oponent plops this on the table I have no problem saying no thanks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Luco wrote:So if people don't want to play against something that is in extended rules, which all gaming groups don't recognize equally, its fine to mock them for holding a different opinion?
Yes apparently it is ok to mock people on the forums now.
I dont mind a differance of opinions in the least. I just dont think it is too much to ask for them to do it in a civil manor devoid of the inflamatory. Apparently it is however.
No you just don't get it Three Legged Dog, you're not as good a player as they are because they have no problem running this tank and making the game less fun for their opponent. If you have a problem with that and wouldn't want to actually play against it then it's YOUR fault, because you're less of a gamer than them. They like making other people 'be challenged'. You just don't like being challenged.
SumYungGui wrote:No you just don't get it Three Legged Dog, you're not as good a player as they are because they have no problem running this tank and making the game less fun for their opponent. If you have a problem with that and wouldn't want to actually play against it then it's YOUR fault, because you're less of a gamer than them. They like making other people 'be challenged'. You just don't like being challenged.
Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:Oh goody, so I can show up to any tournament with one of these things or any other non-super heavy.
Their is a level of expected knowladge in a tournament scene. General codeci are a given but FW rule sets and vehicles...sorry, no.
Well that's different - you never said tournament originally.
Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:As far as a pick up game...I treat most pick up games as I would any serious game/tournament level in some occassions. If my oponent plops this on the table I have no problem saying no thanks.
Man, so glad I never picked that attitude up playing this game.
Okay, for sake of argument, let's say that the land raider Achilles cost 250 points. Would you hold it against anyone who said "I'm not playing against that for ____" be it either it isn't in the standard 40k rulebook or codices, or because they thought it was grossly overpowered and would not have a fun game playing against it? Or would you simply say "it's a legal unit, stop whining and find a creative way around it"?
As already brought up, the apparent answer for a sisters player is to field evicerator cannonesses, which could work (not exactly reliable, but probably the best chance they get) which also assumes that you can't tie them up with something (say your 5 thunderhammer terminators) or they don't get killed or bogged down etc, or they could use penitent engines, which are known to be poor, but even so you're sending a low armored walker against a tank with 2 multi-meltas. I don't think anyone would ever see that work.
Eldar are stuck with witchblades, which would only be reliable in large warlock squads, but as brought up in another thread large warlock squads are not exactly efficient especially since you could bring a librarian to help against them. Wraithlords would work, but have to slog it across the table weathering fire (not something they do that well). Last few answers are Fuegan in close combat, or the avatar in the same place (with only 5 attacks it isn't likely), fire prisms (one shot even as a rail gun is even less likely), or swooping hawks (majority -3 to the damage chart and have to get through the thunderfire cannon).
The point is, just because someone refuses to play against something when outside of a tournament doesn't mean they are less of a gamer, especially when it isn't included in the core rules, but as an extension, especially when there are obvious problems with it. Were it included in the space marine codex, I'd agree and say "try to deal with it" similar to with thunderwolf cavalry, vendettas and so on. But when it's in an extension, I have no expectation of playing against it or of having my opponent play against it.
The thing is, the majority of 'normal' Forgeworld units are completely fine. They're either balanced about right or evn against the player using them. It's only a handful of units that create the bad attitude towards Forgeworld stuff, of which the Achilles is a member of. Funnily enough, they tend to be Space Marine transports (Lucius Pattern Drop Pod, Ceastus Assault Ram and Land Raider Achilles).
I do not like FW. I don't use them and I don't like to play against them. I won't just not play if that's the only other option, like if the opponent available only has stuff that uses experimental rules. This is not because I have some fear that they are unbalanced though. I don't like the elitism of it. FW models are expensive. Using FW models gives some people access to special exceptional rules that other players may not have access to. Also, FW does not put out nearly as many optional special units for some armies as it does for others.
Having FW Imperial Armor gives Imperial players many more options and variants to overcome their usual accepted weaknesses of the 'standard' units. If Imperials have a dozen different variants for all occasions, then so should every other army. It reminds me of the old practice of IG taking grey knight allies to overcome their CC shortcomings. It is not in the spirit of the game where each army has a distinct flavor with its strengths and weaknesses where WYSIWYG is important, proxies are frowned upon, and most players consider appearance and authenticity as a good part of the hobby (My grot is not a librarian any more than my Crusader is an Achilles); but certain optional experimental rules only available to players with generous parents or a nice job exist as long as everyone agrees to them. Guess what? IG are SUPPOSED TO SUCK at close combat to offset the fact that they have mad crazy big guns as a strength. Likewise each race's tanks have their own strengths and weaknesses. Where's my ground-pounding AV14 Eldar non-skimmer with quad linked flamers?? Oh yeah, FW doesn't like Eldar enough to make 20 tank variants for them, so never mind. Fair enough, just because the points may be balanced? NO! The points are imbalanced from one army to the next for a reason. Why a space marine Land Speeder costs less than an Eldar Vyper? Nobody knows, except that it somehow is intertwined with other pro's and cons of each list working towards an army list with a distinction to it. If I can have an Eldar version of a Leman Russ just because FW made a model for it, it reduces the uniqueness of both the Eldar and the IG armor flavor.
Here's why: socially, in pickup games at a store against a person you don't know, it puts the non-FW player on the spot to even ask him "is it okay I have this new tank that isnt in my codex" because he will have to respond "sure fine, whatever its just a game" otherwise everyone thinks he's a jerk. When really, how many people say "sure, whatever" when inside they are thinking "no. use what's in your codex."
If someone wants to use FW against me I would like to say "sure if I can use my old transformers toy with these made up rules I have for it too".. "but wait... Transformers aren't in the GW universe" says the rich kid with the FW tanks. My point exactly sez me, as I paint a big two headed eagle on optimus prime's windshield.
I think that statement is *far* more elitist than anything FW related...ever.
Will you not play against Horde Orks or IG because they cost 2-4x as much $$$ as a Space Marine army as well? Exact same principle. Making an army of FW Space Marines is still probably cheaper than a mechanized IG army of all plastic dudes from GW.
It really sounds like you are projecting far different issues onto FW than possibly exist. Most FW stuff is simply variants of already existing things that doesn't really bring any truly new capabilities. Is there really an issue with a Leman Russ Annihilator or a MM razorback? A LR Helios? Rough Rider command squads? You won't find FW making IGCC Walkers or WS5 I6 Powerweapon wielding guardsmen. You won't find AV14 Eldar Battle Tanks with huge ordnance weapons on them. You won't find Tau with Jump Pack assault troops, and you won't find Orks with BS4 guns.
If someone wants to use FW against me I would like to say "sure if I can use my old transformers toy with these made up rules I have for it too".. "but wait... Transformers aren't in the GW universe" says the rich kid with the FW tanks. My point exactly sez me, as I paint a big two headed eagle on optimus prime's windshield.
Except they very explictely are... With a *GW* copyright and a Citadel Models stamp. FW *IS* GW. They aren't a subsidiary or a different company, they are a subdivision, they work out of the same building and use the same phones and same email addresses and their products all have a GW copyright and are official Citadel products.
Of course they exist within the 40k universe.
Telling yourself otherwise in your fantasy land with Optimus prime doesn't make it not so. Just because its not in a codex doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the 40k universe.
That said, FW is also not always that expensive, for instance I bought my FW Chaos dreads direct from them at a cheaper price than the GW metal one.
I have a feeling you really don't have any idea about FW stuff at all here. I think you if you took the time to visit the FW website and download their rules, you would find in fact that the FW army lists are far more balanced and generally less abuseable than most of the newer Codex's are, as are most units with about half a dozen exceptions *TOPS*.
If you look at how FW models change when they get put into codex's, they genreally become cheaper and better. The Hydra is a great example, it was 200pts without a cover save ignoring rule and couldn't be taken in squadrons, now its 75pts and can be taken up to 3 per HS slot and ignores SMF cover saves.
yeenoghu wrote:I do not like FW. I don't use them and I don't like to play against them. I won't just not play if that's the only other option, like if the opponent available only has stuff that uses experimental rules. This is not because I have some fear that they are unbalanced though. I don't like the elitism of it. FW models are expensive. Using FW models gives some people access to special exceptional rules that other players may not have access to. Also, FW does not put out nearly as many optional special units for some armies as it does for others.
Spoiler:
Having FW Imperial Armor gives Imperial players many more options and variants to overcome their usual accepted weaknesses of the 'standard' units. If Imperials have a dozen different variants for all occasions, then so should every other army. It reminds me of the old practice of IG taking grey knight allies to overcome their CC shortcomings. It is not in the spirit of the game where each army has a distinct flavor with its strengths and weaknesses where WYSIWYG is important, proxies are frowned upon, and most players consider appearance and authenticity as a good part of the hobby (My grot is not a librarian any more than my Crusader is an Achilles); but certain optional experimental rules only available to players with generous parents or a nice job exist as long as everyone agrees to them. Guess what? IG are SUPPOSED TO SUCK at close combat to offset the fact that they have mad crazy big guns as a strength. Likewise each race's tanks have their own strengths and weaknesses. Where's my ground-pounding AV14 Eldar non-skimmer with quad linked flamers?? Oh yeah, FW doesn't like Eldar enough to make 20 tank variants for them, so never mind. Fair enough, just because the points may be balanced? NO! The points are imbalanced from one army to the next for a reason. Why a space marine Land Speeder costs less than an Eldar Vyper? Nobody knows, except that it somehow is intertwined with other pro's and cons of each list working towards an army list with a distinction to it. If I can have an Eldar version of a Leman Russ just because FW made a model for it, it reduces the uniqueness of both the Eldar and the IG armor flavor.
Here's why: socially, in pickup games at a store against a person you don't know, it puts the non-FW player on the spot to even ask him "is it okay I have this new tank that isnt in my codex" because he will have to respond "sure fine, whatever its just a game" otherwise everyone thinks he's a jerk. When really, how many people say "sure, whatever" when inside they are thinking "no. use what's in your codex."
If someone wants to use FW against me I would like to say "sure if I can use my old transformers toy with these made up rules I have for it too".. "but wait... Transformers aren't in the GW universe" says the rich kid with the FW tanks. My point exactly sez me, as I paint a big two headed eagle on optimus prime's windshield.
Wait a minute. You're also complaining about the models there. If I put down my Tyranid army to play you, with a Forgeworld Winged hive Tyrant and Shrikes using Forgeworld Warrior wings, you wouldnt play me, because I'm using official (Forgeworld models are GW models, afterall) alternative models that I happened to like and paid for? I mean, consider the fact that for Australian, that Hive Tyrant from Foregworld costs the fething same as the GW model?
How about Apocalypse? I can't use my nice Hierophant because you don't like that I bought a $350 model, despite the rules being in the Apocalypse book?
If you have something against the optional unit rules, fine. But the models?
Ignoring the balance issue, I do not like Achilles. It seems very fanboyish. Almost like some 12-yr kid made it for home games. "This is Land Raider Emperor Ultra Turbo! It is nearly unkillable and has Thunderfire cannon and Twin-linked Multi-meltas!"
It is supposed to be a siege vehicle, but armament of Multi-meltas and Thunderfire seems strange for such a task. Armament itself is somewhat bizarre combination of long-range horde killing and short range tank-killing. There are already Land Raider siege-variants (Helios, Ares) so another one seems superfluous.
Invulnerability rule is very un-Empireish. Such special rules are generally restricted to alien races, and it raises a fluff question, why this method of armouring is unique to Achilles? It would have made more sense to equip Achilles with some sort of void shield, as this technology is widely used, though usually in larger vehicles.
Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:Oh goody, so I can show up to any tournament with one of these things or any other non-super heavy.
Their is a level of expected knowladge in a tournament scene. General codeci are a given but FW rule sets and vehicles...sorry, no.
Well that's different - you never said tournament originally.
Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:As far as a pick up game...I treat most pick up games as I would any serious game/tournament level in some occassions. If my oponent plops this on the table I have no problem saying no thanks.
Man, so glad I never picked that attitude up playing this game.
Right, I apologize for not making that apparent.
Yes you should be glad, it is a curse at times. Hardly a WAAC player but I like a level of maturity in my games that I do not always find...so yes I have standards. This does not mean that every game I play has to meet my rigid guidlines I simply mean to imply that I play with people that have the same expectations whenever able. It is not so
feast or famine" here in the Seattle area that I cant choose when I get a game...
I have played ridiculous apoc games. I have played fun scenario games. I have played campaigns with whacky special rules and such. On average though I do not want to walk in and play a stranger and have this thing set on the table. That is all I am saying. I would expect to see this in an apoc game, I wouldnt mind seeing it in a scenario based game, I would love to see someone field this in a revolving campaign...just not a random pick up or tournament.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ail-Shan wrote:
The point is, just because someone refuses to play against something when outside of a tournament doesn't mean they are less of a gamer, especially when it isn't included in the core rules, but as an extension, especially when there are obvious problems with it. Were it included in the space marine codex, I'd agree and say "try to deal with it" similar to with thunderwolf cavalry, vendettas and so on. But when it's in an extension, I have no expectation of playing against it or of having my opponent play against it.
That was my point, thank you for saying it better then I have been able to...
Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:Right, I apologize for not making that apparent.
Yes you should be glad, it is a curse at times. Hardly a WAAC player but I like a level of maturity in my games that I do not always find...so yes I have standards. This does not mean that every game I play has to meet my rigid guidlines I simply mean to imply that I play with people that have the same expectations whenever able. It is not so
feast or famine" here in the Seattle area that I cant choose when I get a game...
I have played ridiculous apoc games. I have played fun scenario games. I have played campaigns with whacky special rules and such. On average though I do not want to walk in and play a stranger and have this thing set on the table. That is all I am saying. I would expect to see this in an apoc game, I wouldnt mind seeing it in a scenario based game, I would love to see someone field this in a revolving campaign...just not a random pick up or tournament.
Seems I misunderstood you, since this is basically my view on the Achilles. It should have been an Apocalypse datasheet like the Terminus Land Raider.
yeenoghu wrote:I do not like FW. I don't use them and I don't like to play against them. I won't just not play if that's the only other option, like if the opponent available only has stuff that uses experimental rules. This is not because I have some fear that they are unbalanced though. I don't like the elitism of it. FW models are expensive. Using FW models gives some people access to special exceptional rules that other players may not have access to. Also, FW does not put out nearly as many optional special units for some armies as it does for others.
Having FW Imperial Armor gives Imperial players many more options and variants to overcome their usual accepted weaknesses of the 'standard' units. If Imperials have a dozen different variants for all occasions, then so should every other army. It reminds me of the old practice of IG taking grey knight allies to overcome their CC shortcomings. It is not in the spirit of the game where each army has a distinct flavor with its strengths and weaknesses where WYSIWYG is important, proxies are frowned upon, and most players consider appearance and authenticity as a good part of the hobby (My grot is not a librarian any more than my Crusader is an Achilles); but certain optional experimental rules only available to players with generous parents or a nice job exist as long as everyone agrees to them. Guess what? IG are SUPPOSED TO SUCK at close combat to offset the fact that they have mad crazy big guns as a strength. Likewise each race's tanks have their own strengths and weaknesses. Where's my ground-pounding AV14 Eldar non-skimmer with quad linked flamers?? Oh yeah, FW doesn't like Eldar enough to make 20 tank variants for them, so never mind. Fair enough, just because the points may be balanced? NO! The points are imbalanced from one army to the next for a reason. Why a space marine Land Speeder costs less than an Eldar Vyper? Nobody knows, except that it somehow is intertwined with other pro's and cons of each list working towards an army list with a distinction to it. If I can have an Eldar version of a Leman Russ just because FW made a model for it, it reduces the uniqueness of both the Eldar and the IG armor flavor.
Here's why: socially, in pickup games at a store against a person you don't know, it puts the non-FW player on the spot to even ask him "is it okay I have this new tank that isnt in my codex" because he will have to respond "sure fine, whatever its just a game" otherwise everyone thinks he's a jerk. When really, how many people say "sure, whatever" when inside they are thinking "no. use what's in your codex."
If someone wants to use FW against me I would like to say "sure if I can use my old transformers toy with these made up rules I have for it too".. "but wait... Transformers aren't in the GW universe" says the rich kid with the FW tanks. My point exactly sez me, as I paint a big two headed eagle on optimus prime's windshield.
What the elitism about it? Just like you stated that it only a game, so everyone that is crying about a single LR....grow up. If and if ya'lls are good players, you will know how to play around it. FW are not OP, you have to know what you are doing as a player. I been call a jerk in a pick up game, because I always bring my A game and not a stupid vehicle. Learn how to play.
Stop trying to pawn yourself off as a 'better gamer' because you think other people are incapable of learning how to get around this vehicle. You are not better, and other people can learn how to deal with it.
Captain Jack wrote:I bet you lot are the same guys who whined about BA deepstriking Land Raiders.
Hey now! I complained about Deep Striking Land Raiders as well, but not because of their effectiveness (or lack thereof) in-game, but more because the concept is so ball-breaking silly.
Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:Their is a level of expected knowladge in a tournament scene. General codeci are a given but FW rule sets and vehicles...sorry, no.
No, Loki was right. He doesn't need permission to field anything from a Forge World book as long as he is following the rules for fielding that unit (ie. pays the correct points for it, that it uses the correct FOC slot, and that if it is a Super Heavy that the game is over 2000 points). For a tournament and 'level of expected knowledge', that's crap - the TO has the right to allow or deny any unit, even entire Codices if they so desire. They could state clearly "Non-Super Heavy FW units are allowed at this Tournament", and it wouldn't matter what your 'level of expected knowledge' was.
yeenoghu wrote:If someone wants to use FW against me I would like to say "sure if I can use my old transformers toy with these made up rules I have for it too".. "but wait... Transformers aren't in the GW universe" says the rich kid with the FW tanks. My point exactly sez me, as I paint a big two headed eagle on optimus prime's windshield.
You can't be serious? That's your view of FW units, that they're no better than some kid making up his own rules? Are you mad?
And... hold on... did you just say what I think you just said...
yeenoghu wrote:...says the rich kid with the FW tanks...
Wow. You did. You really went there.
Rich kid?
Ok, we've entered into whole counter-elitist elitism arrogant overblown sense of entitlement bitter jealously sort of area here. Methinks you have bigger issues than a Land Raider with a big feth-off cannon sticking out the front.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SumYungGui wrote:They choose not to.
Yes!!! Just like the Reb Brown Captain America movies you will face down the opposing Achilles tanks by taking your ball and leaving!!! Such heroics! Such majesty!!! Such... girly... man... ish... ness
The thing is, while I've got nothing against overpowered stuff, the Achilles just isn't costed right. I'd have less trouble taking down a scythed Hierodule, and that thing is a 450 point gargantuan creature. The Achilles really should have been limited to Apocalypse.
I'm not quite sure it's even possible to cost this thing appropriately. The Achilles is harder for many armies than a Baneblade or a Stompa, and while it doesn't have quite the same level of firepower it's certainly got firepower to match some superheavies like a Macharius or a Malcador, and can be made a scoring bunker with a cheap Troops unit to force opponents to play for draws, but if you start costing it relative to those units then it becomes clearly overcosted.
I feel that the current combinations of weapons and defensive special rules are just too much, making it impossible to cost accurately, and being just simply too hard to kill. If they took off the -1 to damage results or the immunity rules it'd be perfectly fine and you wouldn't really hear complaints, but both together just make it absolutely ridiculous.
So what if it's a good unit? It's still 300 points and not as good as a Monolith, oh and I agree that deep striking Land Raiders is the dumbest fluffism that I've heard of recently. The problem is that some people are unable to bring 'all comers' lists and have to maximise every time they play. So what if I've got an anti mech force and someone plays hoard. Yes there is an element of mocking, have a look in the mirror while whineing and you'll see why.
A lot of lists that I have will struggle against this unit, but it is a large chunk of points and fairly avoidable. OMG, that means he has less to spend on other gucci stuff, so killing the rest of the tat is easier. Did you consider that?
Finally, I'm working on an Eldar list with 3 Hornets and you aren't going see hoards of them just like the Achilles. Gonna walk away if I put them down? Life isn't balanced, it's a game, and the imbalance between the races makes it fun and less like chess with dice.
People really need to stop comparing it with a monolith. Aside from armor values, they really aren't too comparable. The Achilles has a much greater threat range, more versatile weaponry, can be taken along with 6-7 other tanks, and while it can't teleport stuff, it can hold a scoring unit and an IC, which can be just as, if not more valuable. It's also much harder to destroy than a monolith by the majority of weapons available to most armies, and can't be ignored by focusing on Phaseout.
It's not a very balanced unit at all, when it's harder to kill for most armies than a Baneblade, that's an issue. Nobody cares about the Hornet because it's reasonably balanced and isn't exactly hard to kill.
Vaktathi wrote:People really need to stop comparing it with a monolith. Aside from armor values, they really aren't too comparable. The Achilles has a much greater threat range, more versatile weaponry, can be taken along with 6-7 other tanks, and while it can't teleport stuff, it can hold a scoring unit and an IC, which can be just as, if not more valuable. It's also much harder to destroy than a monolith by the majority of weapons available to most armies, and can't be ignored by focusing on Phaseout.
It is comparable, because the 'lith shares the hard to kill status with similar armor. Oh, and the 'lith can't be weapon destroyed to death, and is considerably cheaper. Also the Achilles can't deepsrike into the middle of your army and hit everything around it, you don't play BA do you? Nah, you're just being reactionary, I'm sure once you've played against one you'll not be so bothered (place tempting remark here).
Captain Jack wrote:
It is comparable, because the 'lith shares the hard to kill status with similar armor. Oh, and the 'lith can't be weapon destroyed to death, and is considerably cheaper. Also the Achilles can't deepsrike into the middle of your army and hit everything around it,
Sure, a lith can't be plinked to death, but it's got *twice* the chance on any penetrating hit to be destroyed outright and can still be killed by meltaweapons.
As for DS'ing, sure the Monolith can do it (but can't fire on the turn it arrives to do counting as having moved at Cruising speed and not being Fast), but again, still can't actually *hold* an objective or deny KP's to an opponent, and you aren't facing half a dozen+ armor units in the case of the monolith, plus there's always Phase Out to exploit that doesn't exist with the Achilles.
It's far, far easier to destroy a Necron army while ignoring a monolith than it is a Space Marine or Space Wolf army while ignoring an Achilles. You have to take the unit within the context of the armies they are available to. It's not hard at all to see why the Achilles isn't fun at all to play against, especially if you're playing an army like Dark Eldar, Orks, or Witch Hunters.
you don't play BA do you? Nah, you're just being reactionary, I'm sure once you've played against one you'll not be so bothered (place tempting remark here).
Yup, this is the same cool story that happens every time a 'OMG itz brokenz, my uber army is lost against dis unitz'. Seriously though, there is a lot of stuff that is really hard and for less points. Over 390~ points for one scoring unit means they aren't going to have a whole lot else, and that's almost the cost of two 'liths. Yes it is contextual, but not to the point of gamebreaking, I'll leave you to it...
Captain Jack wrote:
It is comparable, because the 'lith shares the hard to kill status with similar armor. Oh, and the 'lith can't be weapon destroyed to death, and is considerably cheaper. Also the Achilles can't deepsrike into the middle of your army and hit everything around it, you don't play BA do you? Nah, you're just being reactionary, I'm sure once you've played against one you'll not be so bothered (place tempting remark here).
No need to be snide. Keep in mind that you can't judge a unit in a vacuum. Necrons have what, one vehicle? That means really all of your anti-mechhammer weapons you brought in your all-corners list are going to be very bored and shooting at that one (or maybe two) monoliths, as opposed to the inevitable razorback spam that accompanies the SM player.
yeenoghu wrote:words
Wow dude. Maybe it's because I'm mostly an IG player, but that's some hardcore inferiority complex going on. Most of the IG stuff in there is subpar, btw. To be fair, there is a sick amount of Tau/Eldar stuff that's stupid awesome in there. The fusion turrets that Tau can droppod wherever they want? Not to mention Revenant Titans for Eldar. Those things are crazy. Don't get me wrong, I totally called bullgak on the Lucius droppod the first time I saw it, but after taking it into consideration for future games, it became less of a problem to me. I think about the only non-apocFW thing I'd not like in a friendly game without advance planning would be fliers, and that's just because they're difficult to deal with unless you have the opportunity to be prepared for them. To be fair, you get Falcons which are still nigh-unkillable for a fraction of the price.
Backfire wrote:Ignoring the balance issue, I do not like Achilles. It seems very fanboyish. Almost like some 12-yr kid made it for home games. "This is Land Raider Emperor Ultra Turbo! It is nearly unkillable and has Thunderfire cannon and Twin-linked Multi-meltas!"
It is supposed to be a siege vehicle, but armament of Multi-meltas and Thunderfire seems strange for such a task. Armament itself is somewhat bizarre combination of long-range horde killing and short range tank-killing. There are already Land Raider siege-variants (Helios, Ares) so another one seems superfluous.
Invulnerability rule is very un-Empireish. Such special rules are generally restricted to alien races, and it raises a fluff question, why this method of armouring is unique to Achilles? It would have made more sense to equip Achilles with some sort of void shield, as this technology is widely used, though usually in larger vehicles.
This is why this unit annoys me. It's the lame 6 year old kid no one likes playing with the others who says, "Nut uh! I..um... I have a forcefield which protects me! You can't hurt me! Times infinity!" Eldar get holofields/energy fields. Necron Monoliths get effective melta immunity. To hand out stuff like this to SM is to dilute the uniqueness of each army.
The Achilles is an absolute pain, Monolith to the square.
I battled one with my mech Eldar at 2000 pts and ignored it all the time.
After 5 rounds it was a draw, but he (Toby) admitted that we would have lost with an normal LR instead of this d*** thing.
I have no problem with FW stuff, being that all of it is permission only.
The issue is, that FW stuff has been put into codices over the years, and it is only a matter of time before this piece of crap appears in a marine book eventually.
When that happens, ugh....
As to what I think of the Achilles? It is a mistake. It is an example of trying to capture fluff in the rules, and failing badly. You can have your Achilles as long as my dark Eldar have the ability to open open black holes in the game during battles.
Tournies are not the arbiter of what is or is not legal, and never have been, GW themselves has stated this. There exists no uniform tournament standard to go by anyway. For pickup games there is nothing saying that FW stuff needs permission.
SumYungGui wrote:Except the permission of the other person to just say 'No that model's pretty crappy. I'm not gonna play'. That one's pretty important.
Ooops, playing one more round This is the problem, the 'OMG his armyz got stuff I'm gonna struggle with' syndrom is just laughable. I'm also not playing 'cause you spent a lot of money, or because you assume you're going to lose doesn't work either. It's not impossible to deal with, 3 rail gun hammerheads is easy and relatively balanced in 2000pts (I run 2 in 1500), plus throw in some other suits and they (Achilles) are ducks. Yes, they will win games until people work out their heel problem. Jetbike Seer councils, and Nobz biker mobs have all come and gone as the latest 'game breaker' and I see this as being no different.
I suppose I work on the premis of 'is it a FOC legal list?' if yes, go to the fun bit where dice are rolled and stuff happens...
And again the point is brought up that not every race has rail guns, and that some races (such as sisters of battle and Eldar) will have a lot of difficulty killing the Achilles without some serious tailoring or inclusion of certain units (which may be units the person doesn't like playing with. I, for example, would never field Eldar jet bikes. I just don't like them. They are effective and can be quite good, but I don't like them and so wont use them).
So yes, every army can deal with the Achilles (with varying degrees of difficulty), but the point is that no unit should require another armor to completely tailor their entire force to deal with. Mephiston can be brought down by the already included plethora of AP1 (or 2 if people would field plasma) or just by a pile of shots (similar to glancing a tank to death) or some guys with good invulnerable saves, or a horde of orks led by a nob (going with 1 on 1, yes whole other army etc.).
So with sisters for example, the possible ways to kill the achillies was to field cannonesses with eviserators, which are again not too difficult to kill, and even then have little chance to kill the achillies. Other options were to throw far more points at the achillies in the form of exorcists for multiple turns, keeping your anti tank from firing at other targets.
Anyway, I don't play against anything forge world because I have no idea how it works, and have never encountered it since it is basically an extension through imperial armor (like Apocalypse). Similarly, I don't bring any forge world stuff.
However, let's clear this up one thing at a time: Is the Achilles underpointed/improperly built (as Vaktathi pointed out last page)? Why or why not (my opinion is included above: underpointed, though I think Vaktathi is correct in that it has too much stuff making it near impossible to correctly point).
tedurur wrote:They are unallowed in roughly 99% of all tournies
And that's the TO's right. It's got nothing to do with the rules for FW. A TO could disallow the Space Marine Codex if he wanted to - wouldn't make the Space Marine Codex 'permission only' everywhere else.
tedurur wrote:... and pick up games are by definition permission only
Which, again, has nothing to do with the FW rules.
So, to clarify further:
Forge World rules are no more or less 'permission only' than any other rule within 40K, and Tournament Organisers are free to pick and choose what rules they want to have at their events.
There is no viable platform for the claim of superiority by championing this model. Talking down to people who don't want to play against this model is nothing more than stroking your own ego and it makes everyone doing it look extremely childish.
I love how this always gets bogged down into a discussion about whether Forge World rules are "official" or not.
The official statement on the matter is a very nice two page introduction in Imperial Armour Apocalypse which is summed up in the last paragraph. That paragraph begins "As far as we are concerned Codexes and the rulebook are official, everything else is up to the players to use or ignore at will." and end equating the Imperial Armour rules with City of Death and the other expansions.
Where are all the threads hounding people to play City of Death or Planetstrike? Those are GW expansions just like the Forge World rules.
solkan wrote:I love how this always gets bogged down into a discussion about whether Forge World rules are "official" or not.
Because "Well I don't have to use it because it's not official" is an argument made from a fallacious starting point ie. that Forge World rules are "Opponent's Permission" (any more than any other rule etc. etc. etc.) when they are not.
solkan wrote:The official statement on the matter is a very nice two page introduction in Imperial Armour Apocalypse which is summed up in the last paragraph. That paragraph begins "As far as we are concerned Codexes and the rulebook are official, everything else is up to the players to use or ignore at will." and end equating the Imperial Armour rules with City of Death and the other expansions.
Good for Imperial Armour Apocalypse. My Imperial Armour books however say something quite different.
solkan wrote:Where are all the threads hounding people to play City of Death or Planetstrike? Those are GW expansions just like the Forge World rules.
Apples and Oranges.
CoD and Planetstrike are different methods of playing 40K. You can't play them without knowing beforehand that you're playing them because the way the game is structured (from list building to objectives) is completely different. Showing up with a Bombard or an Autocannon Turret Chimera doesn't require a complete different methodology for playing the core game.
SumYungGui wrote:... and it makes everyone doing it look extremely childish.
More than, say, this:
yeenoghu wrote: ...says the rich kid with the FW tanks...
And refusing to play against someone because they have a 'powerful' unit is more childish. It is, as I said, the behaviour of someone who's just afraid of losing.
solkan wrote:I love how this always gets bogged down into a discussion about whether Forge World rules are "official" or not.
The official statement on the matter is a very nice two page introduction in Imperial Armour Apocalypse which is summed up in the last paragraph. That paragraph begins "As far as we are concerned Codexes and the rulebook are official, everything else is up to the players to use or ignore at will." and end equating the Imperial Armour rules with City of Death and the other expansions.
Where are all the threads hounding people to play City of Death or Planetstrike? Those are GW expansions just like the Forge World rules.
Other books say very different things or nothing at all, and for a book that's completely about stuff for a high points level expansion, that's to be understood.
And refusing to play against someone because they have a 'powerful' unit is more childish. It is, as I said, the behaviour of someone who's just afraid of losing.
And again I ask, for sake of argument, would you still taunt and criticize people who refused to play the Achilles if it cost 250 points? What if it cost 100 points? Or do you stand by saying "just deal with it you coward"?
SumYungGui wrote:Stop trying to pawn yourself off as a 'better gamer' because you think other people are incapable of learning how to get around this vehicle. You are not better, and other people can learn how to deal with it.
They choose not to.
How would you know.....hmmm you never played against me or dont even know me.
Reecius wrote:Exactly, it is not invincible! Haha, and refusing to play it is such a wimpy way to play this game....it is a game after all!
And people, I and HBMC were being SARCASTIC! I know it is hard to pick up in the net, but come on, no need to get riled up.
If someone ever refused to play me because of a single model I would laugh. Find a way to win, every army in the game has a way to destroy this tank, or to contain it. If you don't see what it is, look harder.
Simply throwing your hands up and saying no, you won't play against it is the lazy man's way out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @AlexHelker
OK, I'll bite. Name an army and I will tell you how to destroy this tank. Maybe that will make your attitude less defeatist. And I don;t say that to insult you, please don't take it that way, but if you read what you have written, your attitude is just that.
Your valour brought a tear of pure manliness to chuck norris' eye.
I would fight it, I would kill it, then I would do it again, but if it was fielded every game, id start to get sick of it. There are some things that will seriously wreck this vehicle, like a deffrolla, but 2 multimeltas and POTMs is a fearsome tank killer, so thats unreliable. And TFCs are AWESOME! Im not sure why everyone hates them? Their very good against Orks and tyranid gribblies, and put enough hits on target to kill space marines too.
I dont like units that win because their good, with no tactics required, and hell theres not many of those. Meph is more or less one. Even things like TH/SS terminators need tactics, and back up, like a land raider for transport. One unit armies like the Achillies are kinda lame.
You guys must admit, your taking a (if sarcastic) very "Yes-man" view on this. OH! A REALLY HARD BROKEN UNIT TO KILL! SURE ILL FIGHT IT!. And of course there are always ways to kill it with each army. Eldar can use 3 fireprisms to str 10 it. Its POSSIBLE, but hell tailoring much?
I don't view it as being incredibly broken.
Do I think it seems more like an apocalypse vehicle? Yes
In blatant disregard to FW, most people wouldn't let you play it even though the books explicitly state it's legal to do so without requiring permission from your opponent as FW books are simply additions to the existing codexes.
I think the cries of cheese on this one are on par with all the crying over BA / SW. I feel as though 5th edition codexes are more powerful than earlier editions and certainly the trend will continue for the newer releases.
Is the achilles overpowered? not really. It's on about the same level as the old eldar tank shenanigans / monolith hardiness. It's also a great deal more expensive points wise and y'all are forgetting how easy it is to get a weapon destroyed result and take out it's TFC. OMG you can't explode it without an AP1, instantly cry cheese guys.
Most of you haven't even played against one so your views on it are entirely based on speculation, mathhammer, and the fact that you're too cheap to buy FW models..
I used to play orks (long story) and I have to say there isn't a good option on taking this down with ease. swamping it with Pk attacks is not viable and Neither is deff rolla.. Not to say you can't.. but you are probably better off just ignoring like you used to do with eldar tanks and monoliths.. and at best trying for a few weapon destroyed results to take out its shooting
But feel free to continue making a mountain out of a molehill guys. I personally feel like the achilles isn't as great as you guys make it out to be (and especially unthreatening in an apocalypse environment)
solkan wrote:I love how this always gets bogged down into a discussion about whether Forge World rules are "official" or not.
The official statement on the matter is a very nice two page introduction in Imperial Armour Apocalypse which is summed up in the last paragraph. That paragraph begins "As far as we are concerned Codexes and the rulebook are official, everything else is up to the players to use or ignore at will." and end equating the Imperial Armour rules with City of Death and the other expansions.
Where are all the threads hounding people to play City of Death or Planetstrike? Those are GW expansions just like the Forge World rules.
It didn't occur to you that Imperial Armour Apocalypse might have said this because it is itself an extension to Apocalypse? Which is, itself, a non-standard gametype that is something players agree to play rather than standard 40k, much like Planetstrike and Cities of Death?