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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
So as far as I can tell Humanity's actual Golden Age was around M15-M25. Now called the Dark Age by The Imperium because they're the actual Dark Age and they're just funny that. It would appear Humanity managed to settle an astounding million worlds so my question is what the heck were The Eldar doing at this time? The Fall wasn't till M30. It supposedly was still their Galaxy and the let this usurper race take a million planets without doing anything?
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Post by: KingDeath
The galaxy is vast and there is no reason to belief that the Eldar are as expansionist as the human species.
Perhaps the spaceelfs were simply content to live a life of luxury on the crownworlds without fancying any contact with
some strange smelling, evolved apes 
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
This is pretty hard to ignore. This upstart race would have been expanding like a plague. Near the end there Humanity may have had more planets than the Eldar. I guess they were really, really distracted by those "pleasure cults".
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Post by: Eldrad
Ya at this time eldar didnt realy care about anything. The way they saw it is hey we could either go fight these guys or we could have a ton of sex wich would you choose?
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
The Eldar Empire was extremely powerful, but quite small (Mostly centred around where the Eye of Terror now exists). Sure, there were Maiden Worlds and other Eldar expanding at their whim, which would probably bring them into conflict with humans, but I don't think the Eldar Empire ever mobilised to take on the expanding mon-keigh. After the first few encounters (likely ending in fantastic victory for the Eldar) humans would have learnt to leave it well enough alone, which might explain why they expanded so far into the Galactic East.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Eldrad wrote:Ya at this time eldar didnt realy care about anything. The way they saw it is hey we could either go fight these guys or we could have a ton of sex wich would you choose?
I suspect it is somthing like this. However that means "The Fall" as we know it was happening for over 15,000 years. Eldar, are long lived so that's not as long for them but still that's a whole lot of not giving a  for anyone. Automatically Appended Next Post: Emperors Faithful wrote:The Eldar Empire was extremely powerful, but quite small (Mostly centred around where the Eye of Terror now exists). Sure, there were Maiden Worlds and other Eldar expanding at their whim, which would probably bring them into conflict with humans, but I don't think the Eldar Empire ever mobilised to take on the expanding mon-keigh. After the first few encounters (likely ending in fantastic victory for the Eldar) humans would have learnt to leave it well enough alone, which might explain why they expanded so far into the Galactic East.
Or was it the other way around? Humanity's expansion can't be described as anything but "unchecked". The level of human technology at this point is considerd mythical and magical by later humans. It was probably eldar like in comparison.
Pehaps the power of The Eldar empire was always overexaggerated.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Emperors Faithful wrote:The Eldar Empire was extremely powerful, but quite small (Mostly centred around where the Eye of Terror now exists). Sure, there were Maiden Worlds and other Eldar expanding at their whim, which would probably bring them into conflict with humans, but I don't think the Eldar Empire ever mobilised to take on the expanding mon-keigh. After the first few encounters (likely ending in fantastic victory for the Eldar) humans would have learnt to leave it well enough alone, which might explain why they expanded so far into the Galactic East.
Or was it the other way around? Humanity's expansion can't be described as anything but "unchecked". The level of human technology at this point is considerd mythical and magical by later humans. It was probably eldar like in comparison.
Pehaps the power of The Eldar empire was always overexaggerated.
Unlikely, the Humans of that Era had amazing technology yes, but nothing that stood up to Pre-Fall Eldar (who may possibly been a source of some of that tech). If the Eldar really did have serious competition with the Humans then their society wouldn't have fallen to that level of decadence. The whole reason behind the fall was that the Eldar race had proved their supremacy and had nothing left to but take the path of self-indulgance. A real threat, such as the humans, would have snapped them out of it if occuring earlier on.
That said, if the Fall ended the Age of Strife amongst humanity (by calming the Warp Storms), what caused it?
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Post by: IvanTih
Even at it's current size,a war between IoM and Eldar would end in MAD.Now imagine pre-fall Eldar Empire with their full tech base.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
IvanTih wrote:Even at it's current size,a war between IoM and Eldar would end in MAD.Now imagine pre-fall Eldar Empire with their full tech base.
You mean this ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction ) right? Not this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_(magazine)
I think you overestimate the capabilities of the Craftworld Eldar. They really are on their last legs, the only reason that the Imperium doesn't pursue a rigid stance of exterminate on sight is becuase the Eldar leave them alone for the most part, and at other times help them just as much as they kill them.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
and because they can't find them.
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Post by: IvanTih
Emperors Faithful wrote:IvanTih wrote:Even at it's current size,a war between IoM and Eldar would end in MAD.Now imagine pre-fall Eldar Empire with their full tech base.
You mean this ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction ) right? Not this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_(magazine)
I think you overestimate the capabilities of the Craftworld Eldar. They really are on their last legs, the only reason that the Imperium doesn't pursue a rigid stance of exterminate on sight is becuase the Eldar leave them alone for the most part, and at other times help them just as much as they kill them.
Guess you forgot how a Sector fleet got ass rap** by a Craftworld(although a Chapter has managed to destroy one),but again one novel mentions MAD and another says that Eldar are only alive because of their stealth so we can't be sure.
Also note that in one of the e-mails to Andy Chambers when concerned with the size of the IoM's fleet he said that 375,000 fits nicely,taking that 9 in 10 ships merchant and taking millions of commercial spacecraft from 3rd edition rulebook we get absolute minimum of 200,000,upper limit can be anything since millions can be anything from 2 million to 999 milion(fits nicely for Sabbath's World crusade,10,000 ships for a relatively backwater subsector).
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Post by: Harriticus
Keep in mind that most of the Eldar empire was in the current Eye of Terror. Humanity probably kept out of there and left the Eldar alone.
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Post by: Henners91
If humans had proved slightly irritating the Eldar could've dispatched them on but a whim.
It must be remembered that the (still formidable) Eldar are only at the tiniest fraction of their former strength.
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Post by: Conservationist
Harriticus wrote:Keep in mind that most of the Eldar empire was in the current Eye of Terror. Humanity probably kept out of there and left the Eldar alone.
Well, at that point of time the EoT hadnt been formed yet. It only formed when the Fall begin and Slaanesh was created.
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Post by: nels1031
KamikazeCanuck wrote:So as far as I can tell Humanity's actual Golden Age was around M15-M25. Now called the Dark Age by The Imperium because they're the actual Dark Age and they're just funny that. It would appear Humanity managed to settle an astounding million worlds so my question is what the heck were The Eldar doing at this time? The Fall wasn't till M30. It supposedly was still their Galaxy and the let this usurper race take a million planets without doing anything?
I remember reading somewhere in a Codex or BL book, that back then(Pre-Age of Strife) the long lived Eldar still recalled the war with the Necrons and their C'tan masters and couldn't find it in their hearts to eradicate another race. After so many races were destroyed in the galaxy spanning war that laid the Old Ones and their servants low (as well as brought about an Enslaver plague, too, I think), and brought the galaxy to near extinction, there was probably still plenty of space for both. Its certain that the Eldar defended their interests when needed, but all out war was probably unnecessary and a low priority for the pre-Fall Eldar which had turned inward by this time.
Edit: Yeah, its the Necrons codex, the 2 page short story Shadow Games, wherein a Farseer laments not destroying humanity earlier, as the pariah gene has dire consequences for his kind.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
IvanTih wrote:Guess you forgot how a Sector fleet got ass rap** by a Craftworld(although a Chapter has managed to destroy one),but again one novel mentions MAD and another says that Eldar are only alive because of their stealth so we can't be sure.
I didn't forget it, but I do love how in the BRB every justification is given and then that little footnote is thrown on. The Eldar are formidable yes, but in a war (full-scale war, not repeated incursions and raids) the Imperium wins by an atrocious margin.
Also note that in one of the e-mails to Andy Chambers when concerned with the size of the IoM's fleet he said that 375,000 fits nicely,taking that 9 in 10 ships merchant and taking millions of commercial spacecraft from 3rd edition rulebook we get absolute minimum of 200,000,upper limit can be anything since millions can be anything from 2 million to 999 milion(fits nicely for Sabbath's World crusade,10,000 ships for a relatively backwater subsector).
There's clearly no stadardised figure for a Sector Fleet, and they are almost always split up to guard convoys and ports against pirates and raiders both xenos and human. That, and GW is also well known for at times pulling figures straight out of their arse.
(Why do you think the Sabbat Worlds are a backwater subsector?)
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Post by: ChrisWWII
The Sabbat Worlds? Given that there is a massive crusadeg going on involving a billion Guardsmen, Space Marines and Titan Legions, I'd be hard pressed to say that it's a 'backwater'. Is it as important as some other sectors? Well, no. But it's definitely not a backwater. In a modern analogy, the Sabbat Worls are something like the state of Washington. It isn't the most important region, but it's definitely not a backwater.
Now, as to the question...... Well, looking at a map of the Milky Way as it stands in the 41st Millenium ( http://www.joachim-adomeit.de/wh40k/spacemap/map.html) We can see that the biggest concentration of human worlds is in and around the Segmentum Solar, with trails of worlds going off into the Ultima Segmentum, Segmentum Pacificus, and Segmentum Tempestus. Human civilization to the galatic north of Terra seems to be much less concentrated, and a bit more spread out.
I'm a fan of the theory that while humans were expanding, they had some conflicts with the Eldar, and basically gave up expanding towards their empire, and the vast majority of the Eldar race just didn't care enough to mobilize to crush humanity. Hell, I'm willing to bet that some of the warnings the Eldar who fled on the craftworlds were giving was that the Eldar needed to DO something about these stupid apes spreading all over the galaxy.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
ChrisWWII wrote: In a modern analogy, the Sabbat Worls are something like the state of Washington. It isn't the most important region, but it's definitely not a backwater.
Given that Washington is home to the capital of the US, that may not be the best example.
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Post by: IvanTih
Emperors Faithful wrote:IvanTih wrote:Guess you forgot how a Sector fleet got ass rap** by a Craftworld(although a Chapter has managed to destroy one),but again one novel mentions MAD and another says that Eldar are only alive because of their stealth so we can't be sure.
I didn't forget it, but I do love how in the BRB every justification is given and then that little footnote is thrown on. The Eldar are formidable yes, but in a war (full-scale war, not repeated incursions and raids) the Imperium wins by an atrocious margin.
Also note that in one of the e-mails to Andy Chambers when concerned with the size of the IoM's fleet he said that 375,000 fits nicely,taking that 9 in 10 ships merchant and taking millions of commercial spacecraft from 3rd edition rulebook we get absolute minimum of 200,000,upper limit can be anything since millions can be anything from 2 million to 999 milion(fits nicely for Sabbath's World crusade,10,000 ships for a relatively backwater subsector).
There's clearly no stadardised figure for a Sector Fleet, and they are almost always split up to guard convoys and ports against pirates and raiders both xenos and human. That, and GW is also well known for at times pulling figures straight out of their arse.
(Why do you think the Sabbat Worlds are a backwater subsector?)
Andy Chamers said so.
om: HDS
Sent: Sunday, February 2, 2003 9:07 PM
To: Andy Chambers
Subject: A quick question about the Imperium of Man's fleets
I was speaking to Gordon Rennie once on the BFG-list on yahoogroups, to make it short he came up with some rough approximations for the IoM's total fleet, somewhere inbetween 275.000 to 375.000 ships
I was wondering what you feel about that figure, is it plausible? Too high? Too low?
Thanks for your time
Gordons estimates do fit well with the patrolling approaching, which is exactly how it works. However I should point out that in all likelihood the Imperium itslef doesn't have an accurate idea of fleet strength, galactic communication being what it is
AndyC
40K Overfiend
Wars mongered,
civilisations crushed
It was relatively backwater.Also it was a subsector,pretty small.Plus if it comes from GW it's canon deal with it.
Compare that to the Damocles crusade which wasn't even a full crusade,plus it happened on the edge of the Imperium while the Sabbath's World crusade is the example of the full Imperial offensive.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
IvanTih wrote:It was relatively backwater.Also it was a subsector,pretty small.Plus if it comes from GW it's canon deal with it.
It's not from GW. It's from a guy who works there. BIG difference. And even he has admitted the Imperium doesn't really have any idea what their fleet size is.
Compare that to the Damocles crusade which wasn't even a full crusade,plus it happened on the edge of the Imperium while the Sabbath's World crusade is the example of the full Imperial offensive.
The Damocles Crusade was a full crusade, but it was called off to combat the Tyranid threat.
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Post by: Hlaine Larkin mk2
NELS1031 wrote:KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Edit: Yeah, its the Necrons codex, the 2 page short story Shadow Games, wherein a Farseer laments not destroying humanity earlier, as the pariah gene has dire consequences for his kind.
THAts where he sees the vision of destroying the assains temple but as a result the strands of fate all point towards his craftworld dying.
to be honest the eldar probaly wouldn't of directly attck the expanded domain of man but would of defende their borders if the huamns tried to invade
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Post by: IvanTih
Emperors Faithful wrote:IvanTih wrote:It was relatively backwater.Also it was a subsector,pretty small.Plus if it comes from GW it's canon deal with it.
It's not from GW. It's from a guy who works there. BIG difference. And even he has admitted the Imperium doesn't really have any idea what their fleet size is.
Compare that to the Damocles crusade which wasn't even a full crusade,plus it happened on the edge of the Imperium while the Sabbath's World crusade is the example of the full Imperial offensive.
The Damocles Crusade was a full crusade, but it was called off to combat the Tyranid threat.
Even so taking 3rd edition quote we have low end of 200,000.
The psychic beam stretches across 70,000 light years of space, a focus for the millions of commercial craft and warships that navigate through the tumultuous waves of the warp.
It is a given fact that through the might and valour of the Imperial Navy, the raging tides of foul aliens and vile heretics that infest the galaxy have been stayed from overrunning the millions of worlds that over the millennia have come under the Emperors beneficient rule. While these hulking, powerful warships are the most visible representation of Mankind's command of the stars, it is actually through the millions of humble merchant freighters, lumbering heavy transports and sleek fast clippers that make up the vast majority of Mankind's interstellar spacecraft by which its vast domain is held together. -Fabric of the Imperium
At that time, according to War Council logs, there were four thousand two hundred and eighty-seven primary expedition fleets engaged upon the business of the crusade, as well as sixty thousand odd secondary deployment groups involved in compliance or occupation endeavours, with a further three hundred and seventy-two primary expeditions in regroup and refit, or resupplying as they awaited new tasking orders. -Horus Rising
At 50 ships each, ignoring the difference between primary and secondary, that would give 3.25 million.
The central thrust of the Sabbat Worlds Crusade Fleet - those units under Warmaster Macaroth's personal and immediate command - comprises 10,000+ ships of Battlefleet Pacificus. There is no mention at all, anywhere, that this denuded the rest of the Segmentum of defences, and it is not the entirety of the Crusade Fleet.
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Post by: Bran Dawri
As to the original question, I liked old fluff more.
I know it's been retconned, but it used to be that the height (and fall) of the Eldar empire occurred a loooooooooong time before humanity even evolved, and that the Fall was the cause of the Warp storms that kept Humanity confined to the Solar System until the Dark Age of Technology.
In my mind, that's still how it is.
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Post by: Henners91
I'll be the douche whose only further contribution to this thread will be pointing out failz:
Conservationist wrote:Harriticus wrote:Keep in mind that most of the Eldar empire was in the current Eye of Terror. Humanity probably kept out of there and left the Eldar alone.
Well, at that point of time the EoT hadnt been formed yet. It only formed when the Fall begin and Slaanesh was created.
"Current Eye of Terror"; in other words, the space that was there before the warp spilled through. Go look up Crone Worlds, they now exist in the EoT but were originally in normal space.
Emperors Faithful wrote:ChrisWWII wrote: In a modern analogy, the Sabbat Worls are something like the state of Washington. It isn't the most important region, but it's definitely not a backwater.
Given that Washington is home to the capital of the US, that may not be the best example.
I believe he meant Washington STATE. Y'know, that huge one on the west coast with that little-known city Seattle in it? 
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Post by: Melissia
Emperors Faithful wrote:ChrisWWII wrote: In a modern analogy, the Sabbat Worls are something like the state of Washington. It isn't the most important region, but it's definitely not a backwater.
Given that Washington is home to the capital of the US, that may not be the best example.
Wrong coast.
You're thinking of District of Columbia (IE, Washington D.C.).
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Post by: BluntmanDC
Conservationist wrote:Harriticus wrote:Keep in mind that most of the Eldar empire was in the current Eye of Terror. Humanity probably kept out of there and left the Eldar alone.
Well, at that point of time the EoT hadnt been formed yet. It only formed when the Fall begin and Slaanesh was created.
Thats why he used the word 'current'.
It does seem that most of the pre crusade human worlds are on the whole to the east of Terra so they probably wouldn't have butted heads.
The fact that the Eldar had the vessels that would become the craftworlds leads to the conclusion that the Eldar Empire wasn't like the IoM. They had a very powerful but small empire and would rather trade with other races than destroy them.
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Post by: Melissia
The craftworlds were developed in the later era of the Eldar history IIRC, as a response to the debauchery they decided to basically form massive societies and ship away in the craftworlds before it was too late.
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Post by: BluntmanDC
Alot of the craftworlds are older than the debauchery, they were originally long distance trade vessels (that were later expanded a hundred fold over).
Due to the fact that the trade vessels only returned to Eldar core worlds once every hundred or so years they were able to see the fall into decadence and violence that befell their the main body of Eldar.
As i said these long distance trade vessels and the fact that the Eldar have been shown to work with other races, would present their empire as one of trade and commerce than the xeno-phodic expansionists that is the IoM.
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Post by: Henners91
Melissia wrote:The craftworlds were developed in the later era of the Eldar history IIRC, as a response to the debauchery they decided to basically form massive societies and ship away in the craftworlds before it was too late.
IIRC the ships that became the Craftworlds were long-distance trade ships that took hundreds, maybe even thousands, of years to reach their destinations... So when the crews returned to Eldar space they'd be really amazed by the massive leaps in decadence that would have happened over the long periods of time the crews were away.
The Craftworlds as they currently are are amalgamations of these older ships merged into giant super-vessels.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
IvanTih wrote:
At 50 ships each, ignoring the difference between primary and secondary, that would give 3.25 million.
Ivan, please, just admit you've pulled this number from thin air.
The central thrust of the Sabbat Worlds Crusade Fleet - those units under Warmaster Macaroth's personal and immediate command - comprises 10,000+ ships of Battlefleet Pacificus. There is no mention at all, anywhere, that this denuded the rest of the Segmentum of defences, and it is not the entirety of the Crusade Fleet.
Where are you going with this? If these figures are accurate, what does that prove exactly? Automatically Appended Next Post: Melissia wrote:Emperors Faithful wrote:ChrisWWII wrote: In a modern analogy, the Sabbat Worls are something like the state of Washington. It isn't the most important region, but it's definitely not a backwater.
Given that Washington is home to the capital of the US, that may not be the best example.
Wrong coast.
You're thinking of District of Columbia (IE, Washington D.C.).
Bugger it.
Oi, mates! We're gonna have to call off the invasion, we've got the bloody place all mucked up. 
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Post by: Melissia
Yeah, the Koreans made the same mistake in Homefront.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
Melissia wrote:Yeah, the Koreans made the same mistake in Homefront.
Yeah...wait, what?
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Post by: IvanTih
@Emperors Faithful
Why would I pull those numbers out of thin air,I presented high end and low end examples.Plus I provided the quotes.
Sabbath World Crusade numbers are all stated in the Gaunt's Ghost novel(or that Sabbath Crusade background book),they show to us what is the real Imperial offensive(I'll provide a quote later).
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Post by: LiberatedObject
Emperors Faithful wrote:Melissia wrote:Yeah, the Koreans made the same mistake in Homefront.
Yeah...wait, what?
Videogame that takes place in an America where Korea has become expansionist and invades the West coast.
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Post by: Melissia
By the way, it's not the Sabbath Crusade. It's the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, named after Saint Sabbat. No H in her name.
As a side note, are you referring to the first Sabbat Worlds Crusade, or the second one?
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
IvanTih wrote:@Emperors Faithful
Why would I pull those numbers out of thin air,I presented high end and low end examples.Plus I provided the quotes.
'At 50 ships each'. You've provided no quote where it states the average fleet has 50 or so ships.
Sabbath World Crusade numbers are all stated in the Gaunt's Ghost novel(or that Sabbath Crusade background book),they show to us what is the real Imperial offensive(I'll provide a quote later).
So in comparison to a 'real' Imperial Offensive the Sabbat Crusades (no.2 I guess?) is a backwater affair? Please bear in mind that the Manchurian Crusades are something else entirely, having been the largest expansion since the initial Crusades they make any other Imperial expansion look miniscule. Automatically Appended Next Post: Melissia wrote:As a side note, are you referring to the first Sabbat Worlds Crusade, or the second one?
I'd guess he's talking about the second one, as the Gaunts Ghost novels don't go into any logistical detail regarding the initial conquest by Saint Sabbat.
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Post by: ChrisWWII
*Macharian Crusade 
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Post by: Scorpionov
the eldar were probably too busy with their decadence to noticde
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
Emperors Faithful wrote:That said, if the Fall ended the Age of Strife amongst humanity (by calming the Warp Storms), what caused it?
Wasn't it implied to have been caused by the Eldar's descent? Something about the Eldar consciousness being strong enough to survive in the warp long enough to reincarnate (whereas human minds were/are snuffed out within seconds), combined with the whole "death cult orgy" thing, to produce a whole lot of disembodied, tortured souls swirling about in the warp, stirring things up. Then they all sort of reached critical mass and fell into a singularity, creating Slaanesh, which silenced the disturbance they'd been making.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
ChrisWWII wrote:*Macharian Crusade
Fool! You have it all wrong! 
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Emperors Faithful wrote:That said, if the Fall ended the Age of Strife amongst humanity (by calming the Warp Storms), what caused it?
Wasn't it implied to have been caused by the Eldar's descent? Something about the Eldar consciousness being strong enough to survive in the warp long enough to reincarnate (whereas human minds were/are snuffed out within seconds), combined with the whole "death cult orgy" thing, to produce a whole lot of disembodied, tortured souls swirling about in the warp, stirring things up. Then they all sort of reached critical mass and fell into a singularity, creating Slaanesh, which silenced the disturbance they'd been making.
The Age of Strife is reported to have occurred quite suddenly, whereas the descent of the Eldar was a relatively stretched out process up until the birth of Slaanesh.
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Post by: IvanTih
@Emperors Faithful
Battlefleet Gothic for example.
Each battlefleet normally consists of between 50 and 75 warships of varying size,although in some sectors this will be more or less,
I assumed that every fleet had a 50 ships,even if I reduce the number of ships per fleet we still get large numbers.
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Post by: ChrisWWII
Oh, sweet Emperor! The Imperium existed in 1931?!?! THE EMPEROR IS AMONG US!!!
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
IvanTih wrote:@Emperors Faithful
Battlefleet Gothic for example.
Each battlefleet normally consists of between 50 and 75 warships of varying size,although in some sectors this will be more or less,
I assumed that every fleet had a 50 ships,even if I reduce the number of ships per fleet we still get large numbers.
Ivan, you're making this Aussie's head hurt. Where are we going with this?
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
Emperors Faithful wrote:Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Emperors Faithful wrote:That said, if the Fall ended the Age of Strife amongst humanity (by calming the Warp Storms), what caused it?
Wasn't it implied to have been caused by the Eldar's descent? Something about the Eldar consciousness being strong enough to survive in the warp long enough to reincarnate (whereas human minds were/are snuffed out within seconds), combined with the whole "death cult orgy" thing, to produce a whole lot of disembodied, tortured souls swirling about in the warp, stirring things up. Then they all sort of reached critical mass and fell into a singularity, creating Slaanesh, which silenced the disturbance they'd been making.
The Age of Strife is reported to have occurred quite suddenly, whereas the descent of the Eldar was a relatively stretched out process up until the birth of Slaanesh.
But is that necessarily to say that the warp was perfectly still prior? It's easy to assume that there may well be a critical point at which ships can no longer safely travel the warp, before which travel is little more dangerous than it usually it. Or perhaps a critical point where mere turbulence becomes storms.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:But is that necessarily to say that the warp was perfectly still prior? It's easy to assume that there may well be a critical point at which ships can no longer safely travel the warp, before which travel is little more dangerous than it usually it. Or perhaps a critical point where mere turbulence becomes storms.
That implies some sort of warning, that the steady rise in turbulence would point to the Warp being non-negotiable in the future. The Age of Strife was a very sudden malady that seemed to affect only Mankind (seeing the Eldar space travel was uninterrupted). If the Eldar really were the cause, would the warp storms be concentrated around the Eldar empire?
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Post by: Brother Coa
Either way, you are talking about fleets. Imperial Navy is so massive and has so many ships and worlds that I read in some codex it can take massive casualties (example 10.000 ships) and replace them in a matter of minutes. + Imperium is REALLY BIG empire, just check 40k galaxy map. You can't secure empire that size with only few million ships...
And about the Eldar and Humanity...they where friends once. Before the Fall Humanity lived in peace with most alien races, including the Eldar - even so they thing in those days that we are lesser species. In time of the fall, when Humanity is in need of help - noon help it. Even some alien races attack Human worlds and plunder them, including some Eldar pirates that escaped the Fall. That explains Human xenophobia and Emperor's teaching of non-trust to alien species.
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Post by: IvanTih
Emperors Faithful wrote:IvanTih wrote:@Emperors Faithful
Battlefleet Gothic for example.
Each battlefleet normally consists of between 50 and 75 warships of varying size,although in some sectors this will be more or less,
I assumed that every fleet had a 50 ships,even if I reduce the number of ships per fleet we still get large numbers.
Ivan, you're making this Aussie's head hurt. Where are we going with this?
Never.
Remember when the Imperium lost millions of ships(5th edition rulebook) due some alien cyborg being executed by the Black Templar marines.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Bran Dawri wrote:As to the original question, I liked old fluff more.
I know it's been retconned, but it used to be that the height (and fall) of the Eldar empire occurred a loooooooooong time before humanity even evolved, and that the Fall was the cause of the Warp storms that kept Humanity confined to the Solar System until the Dark Age of Technology.
In my mind, that's still how it is.
Ah Ha! See that's how it is in my mind too but I thought I had misremembered it. If it has indeed been retconned I must say I don't like it either for the question I've rasied here. We've basically got two empires in Golden Ages at the same. Fluff error from GW imo.
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Post by: ChrisWWII
Well, the Fall of the ELdar was what ABATED the Warp Storms surronding Terra, not what caused them. But two empires weren't at their golden age at the sme time. The Eldar were long long on their way to the fall by the time humanity began spreading across the galaxy.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
I would agree just not sure the official fluff agrees. They're described as being at the height of their power at the time of the fall and holding sway over the galaxy http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Fall. Yet humans were more widespread.
Eldar were never a prolific people but even during their peak (whenever that may have been) it probably took almost all of their military might to control the Ork problem. During the last few millenia when they just didn't give a crap anymore I would guess Army enrollment was at an all-time low and the Ork problem would have been even worse. Perhaps they saw the humans rising but couldn't do anything but say "well, at least they ain't Orks".
35540
Post by: Eldrad
Personaly evven though they are a dwindling bunch i think that the eldar still have alot of life left. I do have to agree with the fact that they would die in a full fleged fight with the IoM but lets be realistic the imperium is to big and to clumsy to take down the eldar. Thier like the romans before Hanible only knowing how to do one thing. On a side note he way i see it the eldar have two choices One take back thier Empire through the Biel-Tan stratigy or they can die out let a new god be born who would kill thier gratest rival Slaanesh and he would be able to revive the whole of the eldar race. To me it seems its all good.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Chris WWII is right the birth of Slaanesh is what stopped the warp storms hence forth the eldars old empire out dates mans new one.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus orcs wernt a big problem back then they were both working for the Old Ones because they were both made by them.Orcs were ushaly off fighting Necrons and that gave a big gaping whole in the eldar way of life which created the rainy day theory... And thats a story for another time.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
IvanTih wrote:Never.
Remember when the Imperium lost millions of ships(5th edition rulebook) due some alien cyborg being executed by the Black Templar marines.
Never what?  I'm honestly confused here. Automatically Appended Next Post: Eldrad wrote:Plus orcs wernt a big problem back then they were both working for the Old Ones because they were both made by them.Orcs were ushaly off fighting Necrons and that gave a big gaping whole in the eldar way of life which created the rainy day theory... And thats a story for another time.
I think you've seriously messed up your timeline here, the Old Ones were (dead) and gone long before the Eldar Empire reached its peak. Orks weren't really a threat because Eldar were just that powerful and secure in their might.
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Post by: obsidianaura
For those saying the Eldar couldn't destroy the Imperium I belive they could but not without destroying themselves.
In the Black Library (in the webway) they have their weapons of last resort which are horrifically powerful.
I'll need to go back and check for sources but I think they have the ability to remove the the barriers between real space and the warp that would doom everyone.
Not sure why they'd do this though.
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Post by: IvanTih
Emperors Faithful wrote:IvanTih wrote:Never.
Remember when the Imperium lost millions of ships(5th edition rulebook) due some alien cyborg being executed by the Black Templar marines.
Never what? I'm honestly confused here.
I won't end this debate with you over the number of the Imperial Navy's ships.
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Post by: Harriticus
IvanTih wrote:@Emperors Faithful
Battlefleet Gothic for example.
Each battlefleet normally consists of between 50 and 75 warships of varying size,although in some sectors this will be more or less,
I assumed that every fleet had a 50 ships,even if I reduce the number of ships per fleet we still get large numbers.
Capital Ships seem somewhat sparse, for Imperial Standards anyway. In Battlefleet Gothic it seems like a major Battlefleet may "only" have 2-3 Battleships and most fluff has a Cruiser leading an entire military operation.
The flip side here is how many sectors the Imperium has, the Milky Way Galaxy is roughly 90,000 Light Years across and 15,000 Light Years thick. According to Lexicanum an Imperial Sector is roughly 200 Light Years Long. You can do the math to figure out how many Sector Battlefleets there are from there as I'm a lazy Jew.
36588
Post by: Footsloggin
Well, the Eldar are still powerful... I mean, Maugan-Ra stood alone against a Tyranid swarm and won.
At any rate, the Eldar race is dwindling, however, I believe the Eldar could severely damage the Imperium, even with their current numbers.
Their stealth is seemingly what is keeping them alive, however, an all-out war COULD end in MAD as Ivan stated, if the Dark Eldar participated as well...
21066
Post by: BluntmanDC
ChrisWWII wrote:Well, the Fall of the ELdar was what ABATED the Warp Storms surronding Terra, not what caused them. But two empires weren't at their golden age at the sme time. The Eldar were long long on their way to the fall by the time humanity began spreading across the galaxy.
We are not talking about the IoM we are talking about the original human empire:
Dark age of technology - what is actually the golden age of man
Age of strife - fall of the golden age of man. caused in part by the fall of the Eldar, by human made AI, the evolution of New Men etc, the universe is covered in warpstorms
Great Crusade - birth of Slannesh causing the destruction of the Eldar empire, warpstorms deminish allowing the Emperor of Terra to leave the Sol system
IoM
The timeline as presented by GW clearly shows that the Eldar had an empire at the same time as Humans. The fall was only possible due to the prosperity and strength of the Eldar empire at the time, allowing the Eldar to act as they did, showing that the Eldar empire was at its peak at the same time as the great expansion of humanity.
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Post by: ChrisWWII
I WAS talking about the pre-Imperium human empire. Yes, both existed at the same time, but they were not at their peak at the same time. The Eldar empire had been in decline for hundreds, if not thousands of years by the time the human race was spreading around the galaxy.
The Fall had begun a long time before, if we accept what the rulebook says about the Eldar empire existing when humans weren't even a species yet. They had reached their peak, and were at full dominance of space, and THEN began the thosand of years of decadence that slowly created Slaanesh. SO yes, the Eldar and human empires existed at the same time, but by the time the human empire was established, the Eldar were most liekly 100% focused on themselves, and their sheer decadence.
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Post by: Brother Coa
I think in the end that surviving Eldar will fled to the Halo zone and rebuild their race for the final stand against Chaos. Or few surviving Eldar Farseers will realize that, even if they are "apes" to them, ignorant and xenophobic - Humans represent their best hope for defeating the Chaos gods. And they will secretly meld with Human population across the Imperium and in the end there will be Human-Eldar hybrids all across the Imperium that will prepare for the last battle with Chaos. But that's just me, what will happen next only GW knows...
28848
Post by: KamikazeCanuck
ChrisWWII wrote:I WAS talking about the pre-Imperium human empire. Yes, both existed at the same time, but they were not at their peak at the same time. The Eldar empire had been in decline for hundreds, if not thousands of years by the time the human race was spreading around the galaxy.
The Fall had begun a long time before, if we accept what the rulebook says about the Eldar empire existing when humans weren't even a species yet. They had reached their peak, and were at full dominance of space, and THEN began the thosand of years of decadence that slowly created Slaanesh. SO yes, the Eldar and human empires existed at the same time, but by the time the human empire was established, the Eldar were most liekly 100% focused on themselves, and their sheer decadence.
So then you subscribe to the 15,000+ year long fall theory then. I suppose I do too. Just wish GW would stop saying Eldar were at their peak at the time of collapse, obviously things were not going well at all.
35046
Post by: Perkustin
I think the general decline of the eldar had been happening for easily the 15 millenia period previously stated. They live at least ten times as long for a start. Plus when was the war with the necrontyr? (it's either 50,000, 100,000 or like a million years, damn halo has confused me). I think that is when the eldar where at their most powerful; blackstone fortresses etc and the fact they simply had enough manpower to take on the numberless hordes. Oh and btw Cadia is an ancient colony of mankind do you think a full strength eldar would let mankind colonise it? ('Blah blah necron obelisks' aside).
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
I believe The War with the necrontyr was like 60 million years ago.
Cadia was colonized after the Heresy I think.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
IvanTih wrote:@Emperors Faithful
Battlefleet Gothic for example.
Each battlefleet normally consists of between 50 and 75 warships of varying size,although in some sectors this will be more or less,
I assumed that every fleet had a 50 ships,even if I reduce the number of ships per fleet we still get large numbers.
Of course it should be borne in mind that primitive, religious societies tend to chronicle numbers in terms of what sounds good, or mystical combinations, rather than what actually exists.
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Post by: Perkustin
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cadia Just thought i'd check my assumption was correct. This is assuming lexicanum is accurate of course. What is this obsession with the number of the fleet?!?! Countless billion troopers would surely require some ridiculously Huge fleet. If the '50' figure is referrring to battleship class and higher (And i think it is) i believe it, otherwise the fleet is 'incalculable in it's vastness'....
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
I think 50-75 ships for a battlefleet is a more than fair estimate. Don't even know why we're discussing that.
21066
Post by: BluntmanDC
KamikazeCanuck wrote:ChrisWWII wrote:I WAS talking about the pre-Imperium human empire. Yes, both existed at the same time, but they were not at their peak at the same time. The Eldar empire had been in decline for hundreds, if not thousands of years by the time the human race was spreading around the galaxy.
The Fall had begun a long time before, if we accept what the rulebook says about the Eldar empire existing when humans weren't even a species yet. They had reached their peak, and were at full dominance of space, and THEN began the thosand of years of decadence that slowly created Slaanesh. SO yes, the Eldar and human empires existed at the same time, but by the time the human empire was established, the Eldar were most liekly 100% focused on themselves, and their sheer decadence.
So then you subscribe to the 15,000+ year long fall theory then. I suppose I do too. Just wish GW would stop saying Eldar were at their peak at the time of collapse, obviously things were not going well at all.
But how would an empire last that long if they are all busy not caring?
28848
Post by: KamikazeCanuck
BluntmanDC wrote:KamikazeCanuck wrote:ChrisWWII wrote:I WAS talking about the pre-Imperium human empire. Yes, both existed at the same time, but they were not at their peak at the same time. The Eldar empire had been in decline for hundreds, if not thousands of years by the time the human race was spreading around the galaxy.
The Fall had begun a long time before, if we accept what the rulebook says about the Eldar empire existing when humans weren't even a species yet. They had reached their peak, and were at full dominance of space, and THEN began the thosand of years of decadence that slowly created Slaanesh. SO yes, the Eldar and human empires existed at the same time, but by the time the human empire was established, the Eldar were most liekly 100% focused on themselves, and their sheer decadence.
So then you subscribe to the 15,000+ year long fall theory then. I suppose I do too. Just wish GW would stop saying Eldar were at their peak at the time of collapse, obviously things were not going well at all.
But how would an empire last that long if they are all busy not caring?
Because that's like 150 years in "human years". Still a long time but I'm sure analogies could be made to Rome or other empires.
Let's just say it was one really long orgy...
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
IvanTih wrote:Emperors Faithful wrote:IvanTih wrote:Never.
Remember when the Imperium lost millions of ships(5th edition rulebook) due some alien cyborg being executed by the Black Templar marines.
Never what? I'm honestly confused here.
I won't end this debate with you over the number of the Imperial Navy's ships.
But I don't even know why you are debating this. There must be some point behind the arguement here.
28848
Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Emperors Faithful wrote:IvanTih wrote:Emperors Faithful wrote:IvanTih wrote:Never.
Remember when the Imperium lost millions of ships(5th edition rulebook) due some alien cyborg being executed by the Black Templar marines.
Never what? I'm honestly confused here.
I won't end this debate with you over the number of the Imperial Navy's ships.
But I don't even know why you are debating this. There must be some point behind the arguement here.
Never!
21066
Post by: BluntmanDC
KamikazeCanuck wrote:BluntmanDC wrote:KamikazeCanuck wrote:ChrisWWII wrote:I WAS talking about the pre-Imperium human empire. Yes, both existed at the same time, but they were not at their peak at the same time. The Eldar empire had been in decline for hundreds, if not thousands of years by the time the human race was spreading around the galaxy.
The Fall had begun a long time before, if we accept what the rulebook says about the Eldar empire existing when humans weren't even a species yet. They had reached their peak, and were at full dominance of space, and THEN began the thosand of years of decadence that slowly created Slaanesh. SO yes, the Eldar and human empires existed at the same time, but by the time the human empire was established, the Eldar were most liekly 100% focused on themselves, and their sheer decadence.
So then you subscribe to the 15,000+ year long fall theory then. I suppose I do too. Just wish GW would stop saying Eldar were at their peak at the time of collapse, obviously things were not going well at all.
But how would an empire last that long if they are all busy not caring?
Because that's like 150 years in "human years". Still a long time but I'm sure analogies could be made to Rome or other empires.
Let's just say it was one really long orgy...
The aging process of an Eldar doesn't matter, the fact that the Eldar empire exists in a universe means that they have other aliens to deal with. if their empire has been crumbling away for over a thousand years then that means that all those ork hordes and other aliens will be trying to steal a peice of that empire. This means that they wouldn't be able to live hedonistically as they are to busy trying to stop the threats.
My point is to be hedonistic the Eldar would have to have an empire at the peak of its ability. I would say that the Eldar stopped taking worlds, but their empire would still be as strong as possible.
19554
Post by: HiddenPower
well remember guys that at their height the Eldar Empire wasnt an empire like the modern EoM. They didnt care about anything BECAUSE they had legions of robots or whatever they called them doing everything imaginable for them. So a conflict between the Eldar Empire pre fall could of just meant a autonimous defence force tasked with just keeping the barbarians at bay and the borders safe while the REAL eldar where doing there thing.
Soooo taking that into consideration the Eldar society may well have been falling but, their civilization might have still been at its peak.
18499
Post by: Henners91
IvanTih wrote:Emperors Faithful wrote:IvanTih wrote:Never.
Remember when the Imperium lost millions of ships(5th edition rulebook) due some alien cyborg being executed by the Black Templar marines.
Never what? I'm honestly confused here.
I won't end this debate with you over the number of the Imperial Navy's ships.
Please do, I've only just come back to the thread because the two of you put me off it.
Stop pulling numbers out of your arse and talking utter gibberish.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
HiddenPower wrote:well remember guys that at their height the Eldar Empire wasnt an empire like the modern EoM. They didnt care about anything BECAUSE they had legions of robots or whatever they called them doing everything imaginable for them. So a conflict between the Eldar Empire pre fall could of just meant a autonimous defence force tasked with just keeping the barbarians at bay and the borders safe while the REAL eldar where doing there thing.
Soooo taking that into consideration the Eldar society may well have been falling but, their civilization might have still been at its peak.
Actually its The other way around. Eldar didn't have much in the way of AI whereas Humans during the Dark Age of Technology had robots that did everything. They didn't even have to wipe their own ass.
That's why I think Humanity simply kicked The Eldar's but all over the Galaxy.
Unfortunately, the robots turned on the humans as skynet style like they always do: Damn Robots!
37036
Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
HiddenPower wrote:well remember guys that at their height the Eldar Empire wasnt an empire like the modern EoM. They didnt care about anything BECAUSE they had legions of robots or whatever they called them doing everything imaginable for them. So a conflict between the Eldar Empire pre fall could of just meant a autonimous defence force tasked with just keeping the barbarians at bay and the borders safe while the REAL eldar where doing there thing.
Soooo taking that into consideration the Eldar society may well have been falling but, their civilization might have still been at its peak.
Precisely. The Eldar were at their peak as they gave themselves over to hedonism and depravity. They had a post scarcity (or post labor, rather) society. Almost no one had to work for things to keep running smoothly, and so they effectively went insane from boredom. The same thing, more or less, can be observed in humans, albeit on a radically smaller scale of course. KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Actually its The other way around. Eldar didn't have much in the way of AI whereas Humans during the Dark Age of Technology had robots that did everything. They didn't even have to wipe their own ass.
That's why I think Humanity simply kicked The Eldar's but all over the Galaxy.
Unfortunately, the robots turned on the humans as skynet style like they always do: Damn Robots!
Who's to say that requires strong AI? No task requires sapient intelligence, only the processes that relate to its defined task. An agricultural facility AI, for instance, wouldn't need to be able discuss philosophy, or pass as a sentient being, it need only be able to determine soil quality, where/when crops should be planted, how to care for the crops as they're growing, etc. That doesn't require strong AI. Who is to say the Age of Strife came upon the galaxy without any manner of warning? It's not as though there are records of that time, nor that "hey, things are getting a bit rough in the warp, maybe everything everywhere is going to become unreachable because of magic space storms of space magic?" is the necessary conclusion to a somewhat turbulent warp (and, considering that the eldar may very well have started their descent long before humans began disseminating throughout the galaxy, it might not have even elicited notice; if the warp slowly became rougher over time, no one would see it as the least bit unusual because it's not all that much worse than when they (as an individual) started running a ship or what have you to start with). As an aside, on the "Dark age vs Golden age" thing, as I understand it the term "dark age" refers primarily to a lack of records documenting what was going on during a time period, and so it is murky or "dark" in the eyes of history, not that it is an age of barbarism or chaos. The two concepts get a little muddled together because of the stereotype of the "Dark ages" as being a few hundred years of constant war, raids, rape, and pillaging.
28848
Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:HiddenPower wrote:well remember guys that at their height the Eldar Empire wasnt an empire like the modern EoM. They didnt care about anything BECAUSE they had legions of robots or whatever they called them doing everything imaginable for them. So a conflict between the Eldar Empire pre fall could of just meant a autonimous defence force tasked with just keeping the barbarians at bay and the borders safe while the REAL eldar where doing there thing.
Soooo taking that into consideration the Eldar society may well have been falling but, their civilization might have still been at its peak.
Precisely. The Eldar were at their peak as they gave themselves over to hedonism and depravity. They had a post scarcity (or post labor, rather) society. Almost no one had to work for things to keep running smoothly, and so they effectively went insane from boredom. The same thing, more or less, can be observed in humans, albeit on a radically smaller scale of course.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Actually its The other way around. Eldar didn't have much in the way of AI whereas Humans during the Dark Age of Technology had robots that did everything. They didn't even have to wipe their own ass.
That's why I think Humanity simply kicked The Eldar's but all over the Galaxy.
Unfortunately, the robots turned on the humans as skynet style like they always do: Damn Robots!
Who's to say that requires strong AI? No task requires sapient intelligence, only the processes that relate to its defined task. An agricultural facility AI, for instance, wouldn't need to be able discuss philosophy, or pass as a sentient being, it need only be able to determine soil quality, where/when crops should be planted, how to care for the crops as they're growing, etc. That doesn't require strong AI.
Who is to say the Age of Strife came upon the galaxy without any manner of warning? It's not as though there are records of that time, nor that "hey, things are getting a bit rough in the warp, maybe everything everywhere is going to become unreachable because of magic space storms of space magic?" is the necessary conclusion to a somewhat turbulent warp (and, considering that the eldar may very well have started their descent long before humans began disseminating throughout the galaxy, it might not have even elicited notice; if the warp slowly became rougher over time, no one would see it as the least bit unusual because it's not all that much worse than when they (as an individual) started running a ship or what have you to start with).
As an aside, on the "Dark age vs Golden age" thing, as I understand it the term "dark age" refers primarily to a lack of records documenting what was going on during a time period, and so it is murky or "dark" in the eyes of history, not that it is an age of barbarism or chaos. The two concepts get a little muddled together because of the stereotype of the "Dark ages" as being a few hundred years of constant war, raids, rape, and pillaging.
I don't know what you'd refer to as "strong AI" but Humanity had fully sentient AI. That's about as strong as it gets.
It's called The Dark Age of Technology because its looked at through the "modern" lens of crazy religous superstition to the point were in 40K AI actually stands for Abomitable Intelligence. Because of the proliference of AI it really is viewed as the Dark Age by The Imperium. However in reality The Age of Imperium is humanity's darkest age so dark and ignorant that they think they're in a Golden age and that their golden age was a dark age.
It's one of those ironic things.
37036
Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
I was talking about the Eldar: they had a post labor society, which means that all (or almost all) labor was automated, but that doesn't require (and would probably be hindered by the proliferation of) strong AI (artificial sapience).
I don't think you understand what I'm saying about the dark age thing: the term "dark age" (when properly used) refers to a lack of records from, and contemporary knowledge of, a past age. It's generally misconstrued as meaning an age of barbarism or chaos (misinterpreting the "dark" as meaning "evil" or "bleak" or somesuch, rather than "cloudy" or "obscured" when viewed through the eyes of history).
28848
Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:I was talking about the Eldar: they had a post labor society, which means that all (or almost all) labor was automated, but that doesn't require (and would probably be hindered by the proliferation of) strong AI (artificial sapience).
I don't think you understand what I'm saying about the dark age thing: the term "dark age" (when properly used) refers to a lack of records from, and contemporary knowledge of, a past age. It's generally misconstrued as meaning an age of barbarism or chaos (misinterpreting the "dark" as meaning "evil" or "bleak" or somesuch, rather than "cloudy" or "obscured" when viewed through the eyes of history).
1)oh, Indeed.
2)oh, You're talking about the real Dark Age. Well it does mean all those I think it also refers to the return to barbarism or rather just the fall of civilization. Not sure the two can be seperated. And misinterpretations about the real one or not I'm saying The Imperiumers are using the same interpretations/misinterpretations/connontations about their fictional one
37036
Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
Is there evidence to support the idea that "dark age" was intentionally misused in the fluff (originally, that is)? I can see subsequent commenters mistaking it for that, and if they happen to be someone whose word ends up in canon...
27848
Post by: ChrisWWII
Dark Age of Technology = Height of Human Empire. It's only called the 'Dark Age' because there are no records from that time. As such, no one knows anything about it, thus it's a dark age!
Even in the sense of the Earth's Medieval 'Dark Age' it was only called that because Renaissance scholars viewed the Middle Ages as a 'dark' time between the light of the ancient world, and the light of their own world. It in no way implies a living hell of misery and warfare, although such an environment often does exist.
28848
Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Is there evidence to support the idea that "dark age" was intentionally misused in the fluff (originally, that is)? I can see subsequent commenters mistaking it for that, and if they happen to be someone whose word ends up in canon...
Basically just what I said before. The Mechanicum dubs it the dark age because humanity was advancing and inventing at exponential rates. That of course is completely frowned upon now. It's a form of Mechanicum propaganda.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
ChrisWWII wrote:Dark Age of Technology = Height of Human Empire. It's only called the 'Dark Age' because there are no records from that time. As such, no one knows anything about it, thus it's a dark age!
Actually, I'd debate that there really wasn't a single 'Empire' of humanity as we know it today. Granted you could still call it humanities height, but I think the expansion of humanity at that time was far more prolific (competitive) and uncontrolled then it ever could be if united as a single entity (which would be infinitely more ponderous, though probably not to the Administratum's standards).
19554
Post by: HiddenPower
actually I thought the Dark Age of technology was called so beacuse it didnt have the bright guidance of the omnisiah. which of course led to the war with the men of iron?
wait where does this fall in the time line? cuz wasnt that terminator like war against the machines a major event?
27848
Post by: ChrisWWII
Well, that is of course debatable. I'd argue that the Human civilization (I think we can agree on that word) would have to have had some kind of guiding influence from Terra, or at least had constant communication with Terra, given that things went to hell so quickly when the warp storms kicked in.
It probably wasn't an Empire like the Imperium, but I'm thinking there must have been SOME galactic power structure.
15667
Post by: Emperors Faithful
ChrisWWII wrote:Well, that is of course debatable. I'd argue that the Human civilization (I think we can agree on that word) would have to have had some kind of guiding influence from Terra, or at least had constant communication with Terra, given that things went to hell so quickly when the warp storms kicked in.
It wasn't just Terra that was disrupted, many planets were cut off or isolated completely. It wasn't so much as being completely cut off from one another that led to the Age of Strife, but being split up into many many divisional factions. Each one easy prey to anarchy or xenos intrusion. But AGAIN, we don't know what it was that cause the Strife.
It probably wasn't an Empire like the Imperium, but I'm thinking there must have been SOME galactic power structure.
Who knows? Perhaps the different human expansion groups were not too disimilar from our Earth nations today. With all that space to expand out into, I can imagine Earth nations splitting off in all directions (this is of course assuming either that habitable planets in 40k are much more common, that terraforming was possible at that time or both).
31981
Post by: Pyro-Druid
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:HiddenPower wrote:well remember guys that at their height the Eldar Empire wasnt an empire like the modern EoM. They didnt care about anything BECAUSE they had legions of robots or whatever they called them doing everything imaginable for them. So a conflict between the Eldar Empire pre fall could of just meant a autonimous defence force tasked with just keeping the barbarians at bay and the borders safe while the REAL eldar where doing there thing.
Soooo taking that into consideration the Eldar society may well have been falling but, their civilization might have still been at its peak.
Precisely. The Eldar were at their peak as they gave themselves over to hedonism and depravity. They had a post scarcity (or post labor, rather) society. Almost no one had to work for things to keep running smoothly, and so they effectively went insane from boredom. The same thing, more or less, can be observed in humans, albeit on a radically smaller scale of course.
I'm under the same impression as you two. The Eldar's fall was a result of reaching a peak. But I wouldn't say they went insane from boredom, they just had nothing pressing to bring them back to reality while indulging themselves.
As for earlier talk of IoM vs. Eldar, I'd honestly put my money on the Eldar in the long run. Firstly, either Eldar would see it coming, or they'd be the ones starting it for their benefit, which ever the case it would be the IoM on the back foot initially. Secondly the IoM as a whole seam pretty disorganized and wouldn't be able to react to the Eldars likely skirmisher tactics. And thirdly a three part question... Isn't there a webway portal on Terra? Is it far fetched to assume that at least one craftworld has access to a planet destroying weapon/bomb? Given the first point about Eldar seeing it coming, is anyone else following my train of thought?
27848
Post by: ChrisWWII
The Emperor is keeping that Webway portal closed with his psychic might. Not to mention, it's infested with daemons since Magnus's message broke it open.
I'd honestly say the Eldar are too much a broken species to be a threat now. They'd do a lot of damage yeah, but just the sheer amount of crap the Imperium could throw at them if it got really pissed off? Sooner or later they'd go down, even if it took 100,000 dead humans for ever Eldar life taken.
The Imperium seems disorganized, but if it ever really, REALLY set its mind to something? It'd take care of it. The Administratum may be a huge beuraucracy, but if something important enough to give them a giant kick in the collective rear, I have a feeling they'd move a bit faster.
28848
Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Emperors Faithful wrote:ChrisWWII wrote:Dark Age of Technology = Height of Human Empire. It's only called the 'Dark Age' because there are no records from that time. As such, no one knows anything about it, thus it's a dark age!
Actually, I'd debate that there really wasn't a single 'Empire' of humanity as we know it today. Granted you could still call it humanities height, but I think the expansion of humanity at that time was far more prolific (competitive) and uncontrolled then it ever could be if united as a single entity (which would be infinitely more ponderous, though probably not to the Administratum's standards).
Well it's debatable whether or not a unified Empire is effective or not you're right about them not being a unified people. Which once again raises the question what's The Eldar problem? The mightest empire in the Galaxy cannot take down these scattered and disorganzied usurpers!? Automatically Appended Next Post: HiddenPower wrote:actually I thought the Dark Age of technology was called so beacuse it didnt have the bright guidance of the omnisiah. which of course led to the war with the men of iron?
wait where does this fall in the time line? cuz wasnt that terminator like war against the machines a major event?
yep, I think that was in M25. Lot of bad things happened in M25. Automatically Appended Next Post: Emperors Faithful wrote:ChrisWWII wrote:Well, that is of course debatable. I'd argue that the Human civilization (I think we can agree on that word) would have to have had some kind of guiding influence from Terra, or at least had constant communication with Terra, given that things went to hell so quickly when the warp storms kicked in.
It wasn't just Terra that was disrupted, many planets were cut off or isolated completely. It wasn't so much as being completely cut off from one another that led to the Age of Strife, but being split up into many many divisional factions. Each one easy prey to anarchy or xenos intrusion. But AGAIN, we don't know what it was that cause the Strife.
It probably wasn't an Empire like the Imperium, but I'm thinking there must have been SOME galactic power structure.
Who knows? Perhaps the different human expansion groups were not too disimilar from our Earth nations today. With all that space to expand out into, I can imagine Earth nations splitting off in all directions (this is of course assuming either that habitable planets in 40k are much more common, that terraforming was possible at that time or both).
ah yes, I forgot about that. Humanity wasn't just colonizing a lot of planets back then but making their own. Still worrisome from the Eldar's point of view but less antagonistic than them taking them. I guess that could lead to less open conflict.
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Post by: IvanTih
Henners91 wrote:IvanTih wrote:Emperors Faithful wrote:IvanTih wrote:Never.
Remember when the Imperium lost millions of ships(5th edition rulebook) due some alien cyborg being executed by the Black Templar marines.
Never what? I'm honestly confused here.
I won't end this debate with you over the number of the Imperial Navy's ships.
Please do, I've only just come back to the thread because the two of you put me off it.
Stop pulling numbers out of your arse and talking utter gibberish.
Listen you idi**.
I provide quotes,use other sources to calc them.I try to find middle end.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
ChrisWWII wrote: Sooner or later they'd go down, even if it took 100,000 dead humans for ever Eldar life taken.
These casualties are acceptable. 
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Emperors Faithful wrote:ChrisWWII wrote:Dark Age of Technology = Height of Human Empire. It's only called the 'Dark Age' because there are no records from that time. As such, no one knows anything about it, thus it's a dark age!
Actually, I'd debate that there really wasn't a single 'Empire' of humanity as we know it today. Granted you could still call it humanities height, but I think the expansion of humanity at that time was far more prolific (competitive) and uncontrolled then it ever could be if united as a single entity (which would be infinitely more ponderous, though probably not to the Administratum's standards).
Well it's debatable whether or not a unified Empire is effective or not you're right about them not being a unified people. Which once again raises the question what's The Eldar problem? The mightest empire in the Galaxy cannot take down these scattered and disorganzied usurpers!?
The Eldar didn't have a problem. Humanities first taste of Eldar might (Pre-Fall) probably would have been enough to set them running. They did have the entirety of the galaxy to expand out into, and orks would in comparison appear much less threatening than the Pre-Fall eldar.
ah yes, I forgot about that. Humanity wasn't just colonizing a lot of planets back then but making their own. Still worrisome from the Eldar's point of view but less antagonistic than them taking them. I guess that could lead to less open conflict.
Essentially, the Eldar probably didn't give a damn so long as their Empire borders were well established. With the technology to quench suns or birth garden worlds on little more than a whim the need to expand would have lost its appeal, and the interest in the affairs outside their borders would have lessened.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
So from the discussion I guess we can boil it down to 3 possibilties:
A) The Eldar were in decline.
Although everything officially went to hell in M30 the road to damnation began well before M15 for the long lived aliens. The remaining Eldar were too busy becoming The Dark Eldar and becoming refugees from their own civiliation to really do anything about this new race taking over the Galaxy. The Fall was underway.
B) The Eldar's power has always been overexagerated.
Actually The Eldar are not that big a deal and never were. Yes, they were the dominant civilization in the Galaxy but they never owned it in a way that the modern Imperium would claim with a million worlds. Though their technological and societal acheivements were incredible they are not a prolific people. They cannot spread rapidly like Humans and Orks and so mainly their empire, though impressive, was mainly localized within what is now The Eye of Terror. Also part of this theory is that Humanity tech level was very high at this time. Basically on par with the Eldar in many areas. The Eldar couldn't stop humanity if they wanted to, they lacked both the numbers and the wherewithal.
C)They did.
The Eldar do not fight war in a way Humanity can understand. Throwing waves upon waves of infantry at their opponent like primitives. They pull at the skeins of possibilties and tamper with fate. By pulling at a few thread here and there Humanity as a society was undone. Humanity's own creations, the men of iron, turned on them and finally humanity turned on itself fighting a million intercinine wars and descended into Old Night. In a few short millennia The Mon'Keigh were back to swinging clubs at each other.
So interested in knowing what you think and what's your vote?
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
I'd argue a mix of A) and C). Though I would be surprised if the Men of Iron war was engineered by the Eldar, rather than a stroke of good luck (for them).
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Post by: ChrisWWII
I'd be under the impression that the Eldar would be too wrapped up in their own problems to even try screwing with the humans. I mean, I bet the farseers of the Eldar would be trying to use humanity as an example of why the Eldar neeeded to get off their asses and go do something, but I don't think they'd have the ability to cause the Iron Men to rebel...
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
I guess I'd go woth a mix of A and B but lean more towards B. Although I wish they would flesh the prehistory out more and reveal that it was C. That way The Eldar actually did something impressive rather than just be the portrayed as the universe's perpetual screw-ups the way they are now.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Bran Dawri wrote:As to the original question, I liked old fluff more.
I know it's been retconned, but it used to be that the height (and fall) of the Eldar empire occurred a loooooooooong time before humanity even evolved, and that the Fall was the cause of the Warp storms that kept Humanity confined to the Solar System until the Dark Age of Technology.
In my mind, that's still how it is.
Why are the two incompatible? The Fall of the Eldar didn't happen over a split-second. Birthing a new chaos god took tens of thousands of years.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
DarknessEternal wrote:Bran Dawri wrote:As to the original question, I liked old fluff more.
I know it's been retconned, but it used to be that the height (and fall) of the Eldar empire occurred a loooooooooong time before humanity even evolved, and that the Fall was the cause of the Warp storms that kept Humanity confined to the Solar System until the Dark Age of Technology.
In my mind, that's still how it is.
Why are the two incompatible? The Fall of the Eldar didn't happen over a split-second. Birthing a new chaos god took tens of thousands of years.
Well, in the old fluff (if this is true still looking for conformation) the birth of Slannesh and the fall happened in what Humanity would consider prehistory. Now it's in M30 right before The Emperor leaves Terra.
Should have added option
D) Bad Retcon.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
B) The Eldar's power has always been overexagerated.
Actually The Eldar are not that big a deal and never were. Yes, they were the dominant civilization in the Galaxy but they never owned it in a way that the modern Imperium would claim with a million worlds. Though their technological and societal acheivements were incredible they are not a prolific people. They cannot spread rapidly like Humans and Orks and so mainly their empire, though impressive, was mainly localized within what is now The Eye of Terror. Also part of this theory is that Humanity tech level was very high at this time. Basically on par with the Eldar in many areas. The Eldar couldn't stop humanity if they wanted to, they lacked both the numbers and the wherewithal.
Since when does landmass of a political entity equal political might? That's a rhetorical question, since the answer is "never".
The Eldar were never interested in fighting the expansion of Humanity. Codex Necrons explains this partially, but directly, as has been stated in this thread.
Eldar still don't view Humanity's expansion as a threat, save that Chaos is now directly supported by Humanity. Just because a political entity isn't expansionist doesn't mean they aren't potent. Automatically Appended Next Post: KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Well, in the old fluff (if this is true still looking for conformation) the birth of Slannesh and the fall happened in what Humanity would consider prehistory.
You won't find confirmation, since that never happened in any fluff era.
The gestating of Slannesh caused the warp storms that made travel increasingly difficult for Humanity (well before they were the Imperium). After the birth of Slannesh, those same warp storms abated. At this time, the Emperor declared himself Emperor and set about rounding up all the colonies of Humanity that had become cut off.
That's spelled out in Codex Eldar (2nd edition).
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Post by: Daba
Eldar were pretty spread out. The Exodite worlds were made 'on the fringes of the Eldar Empire'; these are on the edge of the galaxy according to the 40k galaxy map
The new DE codex they really show the scale of Eldar Empire, stating that the old empire was "the largest empire to ever grace the stars".
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
DarknessEternal wrote:KamikazeCanuck wrote:
B) The Eldar's power has always been overexagerated.
Actually The Eldar are not that big a deal and never were. Yes, they were the dominant civilization in the Galaxy but they never owned it in a way that the modern Imperium would claim with a million worlds. Though their technological and societal acheivements were incredible they are not a prolific people. They cannot spread rapidly like Humans and Orks and so mainly their empire, though impressive, was mainly localized within what is now The Eye of Terror. Also part of this theory is that Humanity tech level was very high at this time. Basically on par with the Eldar in many areas. The Eldar couldn't stop humanity if they wanted to, they lacked both the numbers and the wherewithal.
Since when does landmass of a political entity equal political might? That's a rhetorical question, since the answer is "never".
The Eldar were never interested in fighting the expansion of Humanity. Codex Necrons explains this partially, but directly, as has been stated in this thread.
Eldar still don't view Humanity's expansion as a threat, save that Chaos is now directly supported by Humanity. Just because a political entity isn't expansionist doesn't mean they aren't potent.
When does landmass and population equal power? How about almost always.
I'll never buy the theory that The Eldar were at their peak and just didn't care about Humanity taking over a million worlds. This is a major problem.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarknessEternal wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Well, in the old fluff (if this is true still looking for conformation) the birth of Slannesh and the fall happened in what Humanity would consider prehistory.
You won't find confirmation, since that never happened in any fluff era.
The gestating of Slannesh caused the warp storms that made travel increasingly difficult for Humanity (well before they were the Imperium). After the birth of Slannesh, those same warp storms abated. At this time, the Emperor declared himself Emperor and set about rounding up all the colonies of Humanity that had become cut off.
That's spelled out in Codex Eldar (2nd edition).
Perhaps but then why in your previous post were you talking about how the two versions were not incompatible. Automatically Appended Next Post: Daba wrote:Eldar were pretty spread out. The Exodite worlds were made 'on the fringes of the Eldar Empire'; these are on the edge of the galaxy according to the 40k galaxy map
The new DE codex they really show the scale of Eldar Empire, stating that the old empire was "the largest empire to ever grace the stars".
Well then I guess then they were everywhere but even more spread out than humanity is now. Going with "A" then.
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Post by: ChrisWWII
The thing is they weren't at their peak. They were in the declining phase already. Their peak had come along time before, given that the Dark Age of Technolgoy is still M15-M18, the Eldar probably were at their peak a few thousand years before hand. By the time humanity was spreading, they'd gone into decline and were probably more focused on their own problems then humanity slowly beginning to spread.
And the problem with space empires is that you can't measure in terms of 'area controlled', especially in the 40k universe, but you have to go by simple number of planets. The Eldar could very well have had worlds all over the galaxy, but given how slowly they reproduce probably would never have reached the sheer population that's required to truly 'rule' the galaxy like the Imperium does.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
I concur.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
Daba wrote:Eldar were pretty spread out. The Exodite worlds were made 'on the fringes of the Eldar Empire'; these are on the edge of the galaxy according to the 40k galaxy map
Actually, the Exodite worlds were spread out even beyond what would be considered strictly Eldar Empire.
The new DE codex they really show the scale of Eldar Empire, stating that the old empire was "the largest empire to ever grace the stars".
Funny, given this is almost exactly what is said about the Imperium.
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Post by: Henners91
I interpret the pre-Age of Strife history of humanity as being GW's deliberate "blank period" for any sci-fi fanboys to superimpose their preferred timelines onto...
I for one, like to imagine that humanity was a wonderful cutting-edge liberal-minded and friendly mass effectish type of civilisation
It certainly makes me find 40k more ironic.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
Henners91 wrote:I interpret the pre-Age of Strife history of humanity as being GW's deliberate "blank period" for any sci-fi fanboys to superimpose their preferred timelines onto...
I for one, like to imagine that humanity was a wonderful cutting-edge liberal-minded and friendly mass effectish type of civilisation
It certainly makes me find 40k more ironic.
Especially given that certain remants of these civilisations were rediscovered intact during the Great Crusade. Then suitably oppressed.
Imagine the final scene from Mass Effect, but instead of Reaper Ships you have the Imperial Navy. 
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
The Eldar's culture was in decline, not their power. Had a visible threat appeared, it would have jerked at least some of them back to their senses, at least long enough to deal with it. Considering none of the modern Eldar factions bother trying to take/colonize new worlds, they likely didn't much care about territory for the sake of territory then either. They were a post-scarcity, or at least a post-labor, civilization. They didn't need aggro-worlds or mining outposts to function, nor did they need more space to house their population (after all, they had all the space they wanted in the webway). They likely had outposts and pet projects throughout the galaxy (like the garden worlds), but their society as a whole was unconcerned with them.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Henners91 wrote:I interpret the pre-Age of Strife history of humanity as being GW's deliberate "blank period" for any sci-fi fanboys to superimpose their preferred timelines onto...
I for one, like to imagine that humanity was a wonderful cutting-edge liberal-minded and friendly mass effectish type of civilisation
It certainly makes me find 40k more ironic.
I definately think that's what's implied. The current age of Imperium is supposed to be the opposite of what they were. Wouldn't mind them fleshing it out a bit that's for sure. Automatically Appended Next Post: Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The Eldar's culture was in decline, not their power. Had a visible threat appeared, it would have jerked at least some of them back to their senses, at least long enough to deal with it. Considering none of the modern Eldar factions bother trying to take/colonize new worlds, they likely didn't much care about territory for the sake of territory then either. They were a post-scarcity, or at least a post-labor, civilization. They didn't need aggro-worlds or mining outposts to function, nor did they need more space to house their population (after all, they had all the space they wanted in the webway). They likely had outposts and pet projects throughout the galaxy (like the garden worlds), but their society as a whole was unconcerned with them.
Eldar don't colonize new worlds because they are basically marooned where they ended up not becasue they have no interest in rebuilding their civilization's territory. Craftworld Eldar need to return their soulstones to their infinity circiuts. Their heaven (or perhaps more accurately Limbo) is contained within their world ships. For Exodites it's the World Spirit. Dark Eldar are hiding and simply plan to live forever.
The Eldar really, really screwed themselves.
You'd think a clear and present danger would jerk them back to their senses but we're talking about a people that got so self absorbed in their own perverions that it blew up the galaxy.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Eldar really, really screwed themselves.
Pun.
You'd think a clear and present danger would jerk them back to their senses but we're talking about a people that got so self absorbed in their own perverions that it blew up the galaxy.
You're right, by the later stages alien enroachment and even attacks would have been ignored by pretty much every but those directly affected.
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Post by: Daba
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Eldar don't colonize new worlds because they are basically marooned where they ended up not becasue they have no interest in rebuilding their civilization's territory. Craftworld Eldar need to return their soulstones to their infinity circiuts. Their heaven (or perhaps more accurately Limbo) is contained within their world ships. For Exodites it's the World Spirit. Dark Eldar are hiding and simply plan to live forever.
They actually still do colonise from either WD127 or the 2nd/4th Ed Codex as it's often a path they go down.
However, they are mainly there to create things that can't be duplicated on Craftworlds, like Organic Fresh Dinosaur Meat (I'm not joking about that), rather than long term living colonies and the colonists individually return when that path is over for them.
The Eldar really, really screwed themselves.
You'd think a clear and present danger would jerk them back to their senses but we're talking about a people that got so self absorbed in their own perverions that it blew up the galaxy.
I think the point is, there was no danger from without; no military force could contend with them (I think it outright states that in the 4th Ed Codex) but the danger from within was much more subtle.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Daba wrote:KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Eldar don't colonize new worlds because they are basically marooned where they ended up not becasue they have no interest in rebuilding their civilization's territory. Craftworld Eldar need to return their soulstones to their infinity circiuts. Their heaven (or perhaps more accurately Limbo) is contained within their world ships. For Exodites it's the World Spirit. Dark Eldar are hiding and simply plan to live forever.
They actually still do colonise from either WD127 or the 2nd/4th Ed Codex as it's often a path they go down.
However, they are mainly there to create things that can't be duplicated on Craftworlds, like Organic Fresh Dinosaur Meat (I'm not joking about that), rather than long term living colonies and the colonists individually return when that path is over for them.
Interesting. I admint I too would risk not only my life but my eternal soul for free-range organic Brontosaurus steak. Like you said though its not really colonization more like the "Farmer" path. They are like Rangers who seek adventure and then return to their craftworld when sated - except these guys just wanted filet mignon. By far my new favorite Eldar Path!
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Post by: Daba
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Interesting. I admint I too would risk not only my life but my eternal soul for free-range organic Brontosaurus steak. Like you said though its not really colonization more like the "Farmer" path. They are like Rangers who seek adventure and then return to their craftworld when sated - except these guys just wanted filet mignon. By far my new favorite Eldar Path!
Yeah, I think the structures are there, along with permanent web gates (possibly taken there from ships with some on the 'explorer' path which others might take).
They might stay there for hundreds of years but that's probably like moving to a new country for your job for a few years; they might bring family or have children there but they'll eventually return, someone else will come and replace where he was before.
I think it's not too risky normally, as they will be carried back to the Craftworld if they prodded a Triceratops' behind with his fusion brander, and it kicked back unexpectedly.
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Post by: Pilau Rice
I haven't read all of this thread as some of it was OT but in response to the first post, I found this:
THE COMING OF MEN
During the Dark Age of Technology, scouts from Earth travelled far through the galaxy seeking planets to be used as agricultural worlds to provide food for the huge hiveworlds of Humanity. They copied the farming techniques used by the Eldar Knights already living on some of the worlds discovered. In a period referred to by the Exodites as The Coming of Men, the Eldar and Human colonists clashed in a series of bloody wars as the Eldar Knights sought to protect their homes from the interlopers.
When these planets were cut off in the Age of Strife, they became feral worlds. A warrior aristocracy grew up on the Human worlds, mimicking the lifestyle of the Eldar clans. On many worlds, the Eldar clans resurged to win back the lands they had lost and settled into a pattern of battling and raiding both against the Humans and each other. The wealth of the noble Human houses and Eldar clans was based on their herds and much herd-raiding went on. The herds were greatly reduced in size, but, as the only readily available food source, were just as important
THE REDISCOVERY
Thousands of years later, the planets were brought back into the Imperium. When Rogue Trader Jeffers rediscovered the agriworlds he referred to their inhabitants as Knights, pointing out their many Knightly virtues as he emphasised the worlds' value to the Empire both as a massive food resource and as a source of born and bred warriors. The Administratum agreed with Jeffers' findings and quickly set about rediscovering the rest of the long-lost agriworlds. To their delight, they found that two in three of the originally settled worlds were still occupied by Humans working along very similar social lines. The remaining worlds were either occupied by both Eldar and Human Knights or held exclusively by clans of Eldar Knights with strong links to the craftworlds, trading natural raw materials for technology.
It's from WD 126, old but good
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
Pilau Rice wrote:I haven't read all of this thread as some of it was OT but in response to the first post, I found this:
THE COMING OF MEN
During the Dark Age of Technology, scouts from Earth travelled far through the galaxy seeking planets to be used as agricultural worlds to provide food for the huge hiveworlds of Humanity. They copied the farming techniques used by the Eldar Knights already living on some of the worlds discovered. In a period referred to by the Exodites as The Coming of Men, the Eldar and Human colonists clashed in a series of bloody wars as the Eldar Knights sought to protect their homes from the interlopers.
When these planets were cut off in the Age of Strife, they became feral worlds. A warrior aristocracy grew up on the Human worlds, mimicking the lifestyle of the Eldar clans. On many worlds, the Eldar clans resurged to win back the lands they had lost and settled into a pattern of battling and raiding both against the Humans and each other. The wealth of the noble Human houses and Eldar clans was based on their herds and much herd-raiding went on. The herds were greatly reduced in size, but, as the only readily available food source, were just as important
THE REDISCOVERY
Thousands of years later, the planets were brought back into the Imperium. When Rogue Trader Jeffers rediscovered the agriworlds he referred to their inhabitants as Knights, pointing out their many Knightly virtues as he emphasised the worlds' value to the Empire both as a massive food resource and as a source of born and bred warriors. The Administratum agreed with Jeffers' findings and quickly set about rediscovering the rest of the long-lost agriworlds. To their delight, they found that two in three of the originally settled worlds were still occupied by Humans working along very similar social lines. The remaining worlds were either occupied by both Eldar and Human Knights or held exclusively by clans of Eldar Knights with strong links to the craftworlds, trading natural raw materials for technology.
It's from WD 126, old but good
Interesting, this would imply that the Age of Strife was more than an event that affected just humanity. It seemed to have impacts on races throughout the galaxy, including the Eldar (though somewhat reduced due to the webway),something that I had not considered.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Pilau Rice wrote:I haven't read all of this thread as some of it was OT but in response to the first post, I found this:
THE COMING OF MEN
During the Dark Age of Technology, scouts from Earth travelled far through the galaxy seeking planets to be used as agricultural worlds to provide food for the huge hiveworlds of Humanity. They copied the farming techniques used by the Eldar Knights already living on some of the worlds discovered. In a period referred to by the Exodites as The Coming of Men, the Eldar and Human colonists clashed in a series of bloody wars as the Eldar Knights sought to protect their homes from the interlopers.
When these planets were cut off in the Age of Strife, they became feral worlds. A warrior aristocracy grew up on the Human worlds, mimicking the lifestyle of the Eldar clans. On many worlds, the Eldar clans resurged to win back the lands they had lost and settled into a pattern of battling and raiding both against the Humans and each other. The wealth of the noble Human houses and Eldar clans was based on their herds and much herd-raiding went on. The herds were greatly reduced in size, but, as the only readily available food source, were just as important
THE REDISCOVERY
Thousands of years later, the planets were brought back into the Imperium. When Rogue Trader Jeffers rediscovered the agriworlds he referred to their inhabitants as Knights, pointing out their many Knightly virtues as he emphasised the worlds' value to the Empire both as a massive food resource and as a source of born and bred warriors. The Administratum agreed with Jeffers' findings and quickly set about rediscovering the rest of the long-lost agriworlds. To their delight, they found that two in three of the originally settled worlds were still occupied by Humans working along very similar social lines. The remaining worlds were either occupied by both Eldar and Human Knights or held exclusively by clans of Eldar Knights with strong links to the craftworlds, trading natural raw materials for technology.
It's from WD 126, old but good
Well that reraises the original question. Here we see frontier wars breaking out amongst the colonists. We know why the humans didn't get any support: they didn't really have a centralized goverment. However, the Eldar did so where's their backup? In other words where's the federal troops?
However, it also rasies another answer!
D) In the gentle, brightness of the 21st millenium the is mainly peace!
Humans traded, worked and even lived with Eldar. Humans and Eldar, both open-minded and accepting people, got along with most races. Even stable mutations like Beastmen were not an uncommon sight among some of the multicultural planets. Sure there were some troublemaking human worlds that used violence but they were an exception and The Eldar wouldn't collectively punish the city-state-like race whom relations ahve mostly been positive with. When the Fall hit it hit the humans on the aforementioned worlds just as bad as the Eldar. These bastions of freedom and liberty were all but wiped out.
....might be going with "D" now...
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Post by: Eumerin
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Well that reraises the original question. Here we see frontier wars breaking out amongst the colonists. We know why the humans didn't get any support: they didn't really have a centralized goverment. However, the Eldar did so where's their backup? In other words where's the federal troops?
However, it also rasies another answer!
D) In the gentle, brightness of the 21st millenium the is mainly peace!
Humans traded, worked and even lived with Eldar. Humans and Eldar, both open-minded and accepting people, got along with most races. Even stable mutations like Beastmen were not an uncommon sight among some of the multicultural planets. Sure there were some troublemaking human worlds that used violence but they were an exception and The Eldar wouldn't collectively punish the city-state-like race whom relations ahve mostly been positive with. When the Fall hit it hit the humans on the aforementioned worlds just as bad as the Eldar. These bastions of freedom and liberty were all but wiped out.
Keep in mind that the Eldar in question were the Exodites, who had specifically moved out to those locations in order to get away from the decadence starting to become more and more prevalent in mainstream Eldar society. It's questionable whether or not they still would have had enough links back to their homeworlds to bring down the hammer on troublesome human interlopers. And it's also possible that the Exodites may have viewed the cure as being worse than the disease in this instance. For example, assume that the Exodites did call back home for help, and help arrived. Would the help leave when they finished? Or would the "help" decide that they wanted to stay? If the latter, then they'd probably bring along all of the issues that had caused the Exodites to flee in the first place.
And on an only loosely related note, I'm perpetually puzzled at why GW seems to have decided to cut the knights out of the tabletop. They were definitely a neat part of Epic, but GW seems to have done its level best to get rid of them (aside from the occasional mention in BL Titans novels).
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
Eumerin hit the nail on the head here. By the time of the Age of Strife the Eldar Empire was already falling into enough of a mess for Exodites to be leaving and starting up their own seperate, and vulnerable, colonies. And they would certainly be reluctant (and may not have the means) to call upon the aid of the Eldar from the decadent homeworlds.
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Post by: Pilau Rice
A bit more to add on the Exodites
After the Eldar Fall, the craftworlds sought out the colonists to offer them a place on board. The Exodites coldly told their craftworld brethren that they preferred to stay where life was simple if harsh, and the dangers were obvious. Though the craftworlds and Exodite colonies trade with one another, the Exodites still maintain that the easy lifestyle on the craftworlds is dangerously close to that which brought the downfall of their race
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Yeah, I overlooked the Exodite part. There's no way they would call back home for help as the core worlds have basically become Dark Eldar. In many ways a more bitter enemy than any aliens. Bout time those exodites got some tabletop representation.
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Post by: Eumerin
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yeah, I overlooked the Exodite part. There's no way they would call back home for help as the core worlds have basically become Dark Eldar. In many ways a more bitter enemy than any aliens. Bout time those exodites got some tabletop representation.
They did... sort of...
The Epic-scale Eldar Knights were supposed to be Exodites on-loan to the Craftworld armies. Unfortunately, GW cut them out of the final edition of Epic, and has studiously avoided mentioning them on the battlefield since. And the Ork Stompa, which was originally the ork counterpart to the Human and Eldar Knights, was increased in size for it's 40K release. I'd estimate that it's probably now about the same size as the Ork Slasha, which was the smaller-sized version of an Ork Gargant. All evidence suggests that GW is trying its best to "Squat" the knights.
Aside from that, you're correct. Exodites haven't shown up on the tabletop in any other form.
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