I mean following:
Do they have rights to common things in our society? Like to read newspaper, own a car, chose their job, go on strike when the payment is low, go on elections and chose between two governors, liberty to do what they want with their money , own a land, have more than 1 marriage, have PC with fast Internet....
I think that, no matter how much strong is Imperial regime, Humans have biggest liberty of all other races in 40k.

Brother Coa wrote:I mean following:
Do they have rights to common things in our society? Like to read newspaper, own a car, chose their job, go on strike when the payment is low, go on elections and chose between two governors, liberty to do what they want with their money , own a land, have more than 1 marriage, have PC with fast Internet....
I think that, no matter how much strong is Imperial regime, Humans have biggest liberty of all other races in 40k.

It depends on the planet that they live on. Some worlds are so restrictive that they're effectively prisons. And there are others at the opposite extreme.

So long as the planetary tithes are met, psykers are controlled, and the Imperial Creed is followed, the Imperium is content to more or less let worlds do whatever they want. As a result, Imperial citizens live in a wide variety of societies.

Unfortunately, planetary tithes have a tendency to be somewhat steep, and the need to deal with local tax riots means that the vast majority of worlds have at least some degree of suppression in place.

Yep, depens on the planetary governor, but also, they are watched by the high lords of terra and administratum adepts, for the limits of it, whether too tight or too loose.
They have rights but not as we thought as today, see it as, hives are industrial places and imperium provides them work to them, and protection, the rights are seen as this, correct me if I'm wrong.

naa I think there are some rights. Until you work, pay taxes and you're not a heretic you may live.

It depends from world to world, not every damn solar system has a tyrant or nobles that likes to control the population with tyranny. I am sure that FREE THINKING exists in the galaxy to some extent and is tollerated even by the Ministorum.

This may lead to heresy easily, but it would be interesting rather than having an entire galaxy lockminded.

There are several fundamental rights they clearly don't have.

Freedom of religion and conscience.
Freedom from persecution based on genetic inheritance. (I would call it racism, but it's to do with being magic or a mutant, not the colour of your skin.)
They are taxed without representation.

Without these basic rights, the question of whether the local government is a tyranny or supposedly democratic is pointless.

Minor things like being able to read the newspaper, or have internet access, are irrelevant if an Inquisitor can bust into your house at any time and execute your entire family.

Sure they do, they have the right to work hard all their lives for the good of the Imperium! What more could they possibly want?

The only religious restrictions the Imperium itself imposes are "admit the Emperor is totally awesome, and don't worship the ruinous powers or consort with daemons, because that's just plain stupid."

Mutants are persecuted because they're not humans, and are generally chaos worshiping filth, while psykers are contained to prevent the damage they are capable of.

Imperial Citizens aren't taxed by the Imperium, Imperial worlds are, mostly in the form of food, labor, and a handful of Guard recruits, in order to keep the Imperium running smoothly.

Ideas of "rights" and "freedoms" are the product of modern thinking - a movement which is unlikely to have survived over 38,000 years.

The idea that the individual has unique worth which must be protected doesn't seem to exist any more.

Gotta get a box set of Judge Dredd all the civil rules and laws are within.....I got one....old school

What? Being alive in a galaxy full of that wants to torture you, kill you, flay you, then eat you as a sacrifice to their dark masters isn't a civil liberty?

Geez, sure shows you how much we take for granted...

Brother Coa wrote:I mean following:
Do they have rights to common things in our society? Like to read newspaper, own a car, chose their job, go on strike when the payment is low, go on elections and chose between two governors, liberty to do what they want with their money , own a land, have more than 1 marriage, have PC with fast Internet....

It depends on where and who a person is born into, but still at the end of the day they live in a violent dictatorship that burn populations and worlds that don't comply.

Brother Coa wrote:I think that, no matter how much strong is Imperial regime, Humans have biggest liberty of all other races in 40k.

It depends what you mean by liberty, cos the dark eldar, orks and chaos space marines can do whatever they want when they want, as long as they don't off a more powerful member they can't beat.

Some books mention a news feed, but it's probably highly censored. I doubt there's freedom of speech, since speaking out would make you a heretic.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The only religious restrictions the Imperium itself imposes are "admit the Emperor is totally awesome, and don't worship the ruinous powers or consort with daemons, because that's just plain stupid."

Mutants are persecuted because they're not humans, and are generally chaos worshiping filth, while psykers are contained to prevent the damage they are capable of.

Wow, you've bitten hard on that Imperial Propaganda. Most mutants are mutants through no fault of their own. If they turn to the dark powers its because The Imperium would not have them.

Kilkrazy wrote:There are several fundamental rights they clearly don't have.

Freedom of religion and conscience.

Worship of the Emperor, and exactly what the entails, is actually very lax compared when it comes to interpretation. In most cases the planets predominant religion is kept intact, with the Emperor as a God-Figure being integrated or 'revealed' as the identity of the god/s of that particular religion.

Worship of Chaos and Xenos gods would, of course, be right out. Though I can't imagine those particular sects of Chaos being tolerated in this world...aside from maybe Slaanesh.

Freedom from persecution based on genetic inheritance. (I would call it racism, but it's to do with being magic or a mutant, not the colour of your skin.)

Again, not sure if psykers would be tolerated in today's society either. Mutants probably would...maybe?

They are taxed without representation.

The Planetary Governor is their representative in this manner. I remember a particular IG novel where the Adminstratum was convinced to cease all tithes and tithes owed due to a major planetary disaster that had halved the Planets habitable area. They refused to give any aid though, which eventually led to rebellion.

Minor things like being able to read the newspaper, or have internet access, are irrelevant if an Inquisitor can bust into your house at any time and execute your entire family.

Officially he can, but that would raise a lot of eyebrows and possibly have him declared a renegade if he really was just a psycopath.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Wow, you've bitten hard on that Imperial Propaganda. Most mutants are mutants through no fault of their own. If they turn to the dark powers its because The Imperium would not have them.

Some are born mutants, but there are also many who were previously unblemished and were 'gifted' by their dark masters.

Depends on the planet.

the actual Imperial laws are fairly simple,

1: Worship the Emperor

2: pay the Tithe



more specific laws and regulations are mostly planetary.

Governors are appointed by the Imperium, but the Populace of the planet will usually put forth a candidate.


then the planet itself might have it's own planetary government which can be practically any kind as long as they are loyal the the IoM. many are Fuedal in nature having many small Kingdoms, others are Democratic. usually, Fuedal worlds obeey the Imperium by simply Worshipping the Emperor and providing recruits for the IG or the Space Marines.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Again, not sure if psykers would be tolerated in today's society either. Mutants probably would...maybe?

Mutants aren't just tolerated; they are worshiped.

BY THE EMPEROR
*
Thou shalt attend to thy work at the appointed hour
*
Thou shalt seek no reward but the satisfaction of thy Master
*
Thou shalt know thy Duties
*
Thou shalt Obey thy Master in all matters
*
Thou shalt rejoice in thy Service
*
Thou shalt be grateful of thy Master's Favour
*
Thou shalt not make improper use of thy Master's comm-links, nor his las-lines, nor his opticon either
*
Thou shalt be glad of thy Master's punishment, for it is deserved, and it improves thee
*
Thou shalt not speak but Praise of thy Master
*
Thou shalt not look upon the words of the Heretic nor speak of them

~Ecclesiarchal Proscriptions
MCXVII.IV

This always indicated to me that the people of the Imperium don't have a lot of rights.

...?

Emperors Faithful wrote:...?

At least here in the States.

If you haven't been burdened with this down there I'm going to renew my passport.

Yes, if they live in a world where such things are normal.

To an extent. Religion is enforced even on the less pious worlds, because it is a bulwark against Chaos.

No, if they live anywhere else, which is most of the Imperium.

I say that of all races in 40k, Humans have largest freedom. Examples:

1- Human can worship the Emperor or die in his name.
2- Human can sell his soul to Chaos Gods and became powerful warrior and conqueror.
3- Human can join Tau and fight for the Grater Good.
4- Human can join pirate gangs and go hunting some ships.
5- Human can join traders and trade with other races and faction all over the galaxy.
6- Humans can succeed from the Imperium and have their own empire (for a short time at least).
7- Human can join Imperial Guard and go in the galaxy protecting his kind.
8- Human can have possessions, as long as they are not alien and ruinous.
9- Some Humans can join Eldar in their mysterious war for survival.
10- Human can go into politics, and maybe become a ruller of entire planet or system.
11- Human can go into Arbiters and deliver the law to the unjust.
12- Chosen Human can became Space Marine, and go into war to save Humanity from extinction.
13- Humans can enjoy, eat, drink, celebrate, have sex all night and day and live well for most of their lives.
14- Human can became Pariah and go cleanse the galaxy of all life.
15- Human can became Tech Priest and mantain machines all his life.
16- Human can openly speack against heretics, mutants and aliens. Sometimes even against their own rulers.
etc.....................

To me this is more right than of any other race. Emperor enables them this and now they are grateful to him for all eternity.

guys come on

there are world where FREEDOM exists. It might be a freedom like 18th or 19th century, but it exists. This is possible because it's impossible that, with this lot of planets variety, the Adeptus Terra cannot control every single report or situation!

Humanity is free, don't get the general background of the Imperium from the codex. If you read the books you can understand that there is so much diversity in the Imperium, that everything is possible... even the existance of a democracy under Imperium control.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The only religious restrictions the Imperium itself imposes are "admit the Emperor is totally awesome, and don't worship the ruinous powers or consort with daemons, because that's just plain stupid."

Mutants are persecuted because they're not humans, and are generally chaos worshiping filth, while psykers are contained to prevent the damage they are capable of.

Wow, you've bitten hard on that Imperial Propaganda. Most mutants are mutants through no fault of their own. If they turn to the dark powers its because The Imperium would not have them.

Mutants are either the children of cultists touched by chaos (and thus touched by chaos), normal humans who have turned to chaos (and thus touched by chaos), or from disenfranchised populations in highly radioactive, toxic environments, like underhives, who would already have had the Imperium turn its back on them, and so would be rebels at the best, and chaos cultists as the norm.

Despite that, mutants are still tolerated in some places, like the aggroworld in Eisenhorn where they're employed as farmers, and those were certainly not warped by poisons or radiation, since they wound up looking like the cantina from Star Wars. That's quite obviously the touch of Chaos, but nonetheless they were tolerated because the planet needed the labor. They weren't even slaves, and seemed to have it better than pure human serfs on most worlds, and were still virulently anti-human. That's good enough proof that mutants should be purged.

Actually, mutants are a bit of a mix from both chaotic influence and some gentic failing.

Doesn't that ignore mutants that are solely the result of chaos (cultists that have been "gifted" with mutations, etc) and the ones that quite obviously aren't the result of chaos (Space Marines, Ogryn, etc)?

What about natural mutations that occur from genetic changes?

I'm still inclined to think that most of the imperial culture is quite medieval, based on the fluff which talks about noble houses controlling trade, only highborns getting into politics etc. So unless you happen to born to the right person, on the right world, the majority of the human race is pretty much slave labour in hives, grinding out machinery and produce for the tithes so that those wolrds without the resources can have them.

Sure you might be protected by the PDF or guard, or if you're really lucky, astartes, but they'd probably accept killing you and thousands or millions of your kin just to prosecute a war.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Doesn't that ignore mutants that are solely the result of chaos (cultists that have been "gifted" with mutations, etc) and the ones that quite obviously aren't the result of chaos (Space Marines, Ogryn, etc)?

A lot of it is because of pollution, actually.

Or in the case of nobles, inbreeding.

Melissia wrote:Or in the case of nobles, inbreeding.

Haha! Now I have visions of bucktoothed, 6 fingered "nobles" marrying siblings to increase their inheritance..

Add fat, overly pale, watery-eyed slowed to that.

There's only so much the Famulous can do to fix bloodlines that are already hideously flawed.

lol.....

Comic books are illegal.....20 yrs in solitary...

Sugar is illegal....5 yrs solitary....

I tell you its just a nightmare world in the Imperium

Imperial Quote of the Day: The loyal servant learns to love the lash.

I believe I read somewhere that being an Imperial Citizen brings with it no rights, only requirements of service.

Harriticus wrote:I believe I read somewhere that being an Imperial Citizen brings with it no rights, only requirements of service.

As an Imperial citizen, sure. But every Imperial citizen is also a citizen of a planet or starship. And depending on the planet or starship involved, they may have rights from that source. A citizen of Necromunda and a citizen of Ultramar are both citizens of the Imperium. But their rights derive pretty much exclusively from the worlds that they live on.

So yes, most citizens of the Imperium have varying amounts of civil rights. But those rights don't derive from the Imperium.

Ashryu wrote:Imperial Quote of the Day: The loyal servant learns to love the lash.

Sounds like something a Dark Eldar would say.

There's a dichotomy at play.

Imperial denizens are citizens of two systems, the planet on which they reside, and the Imperium.

Insofar as the Imperium is concerned, let's look at the following rights in the first amendment to the constitution.

1) Freedom of worship: Yes and no. You are free to worship the emperor (or machine spirit) within acceptable norms. As such, you can choose your flavor of emperor (or machine) worship. Anything else is heresy, the severity of which will be punished according to the magnitude of the deviation. And of course, heresy is redefined regularly, and new cults treated with suspicion at best.

2) Freedom of speech: Yes and no. So long as your words and thoughts are not judged to be subversive to the Imperium, you're free to say and write what you please. Bear in mind, however, that there appears to be no hard and fast rule regarding what is and is not acceptable, and pissing off the wrong people is a good way to get a 2 am knock on the door from the Arbites or Inquisition.

3) Freedom of assembly: None, unless you join the Imperial Guard.

4) Freedom of the press: Nonexistant, unless you count Imperial propaganda, and whatever redacted news they publish, along with public service decrees.

5) Freedom to petition the government for redress of grievances: an interesting one. The Imperium can and does take corrupt or incompetent governors to task, so theoretically, an imperial citizen could ask for stuff from the Imperial mechanism, but obviously this is a) dicey and b) horribly inefficient.

That's from an Imperial point of view. As the fluff mentions, however, the worlds of the Imperium are incredibly diverse. Some worlds are barely aware of the Imperium and just live and let live as they go about their daily business. So long as there is no organized heresy and the planet meets its religious, military, and administrative requirements, I imagine they are largely left alone to their own devices. If, however, the Imperium or its agents determine a planet has strayed from the path of what is right and acceptable, the mighty banhammer of the Emperor can be expected to deal with the issue rather forcefully.

So in terms of intergalactic and Imperial civil rights, they are severely curtailed. However, the Imperium has very little day-to-day interaction with the majority of its citizens, and with an empire so large and a bureaucracy so complex, it can't be everywhere at once.

So, I'd say that there is room for dissent and discussion within the Imperium's ranks, as well as outside the Imperium's ranks on minor matters, such as local laws and non-Imperial matters. Any attempts to challenge Imperial authority, however are met with harsh repercussions.

To me, it's kinda like living in Medieval Europe with the inquisition. You can probably get by with dissent, so long as its acceptable and not too obvious.

I love the lash. Don't you?

Viper217 wrote:Sure they do, they have the right to work hard all their lives for the good of the Imperium! What more could they possibly want?

I lol'd

To me, I always assumed that human beings in the Imperium have as much rights as the peoples of Nazi Germany.

btswanfury wrote:1) Freedom of worship
2) Freedom of speech
3) Freedom of assembly
4) Freedom of the press
5) Freedom to petition the government for redress of grievances

To build upon this..

1: Worship the Emperor or burn, pretty much.
2: As long as you're proved right in the end and you aren't supporting chaos or xenos. The Imperium does not like losers.
3: See above. The Imperium despises losers. A rebellion overthrowing a corrupt governor is acceptable as long as they provide adequate proof (which is very easy to find in hindsight ), submit to the Imperium, and pay taxes.
4: Depends on the planet, but generally speaking most of the time it's propaganda or tabloids.
5: As stated, it's inefficient. Oftentimes violence is the best way to solve your problems, and assassinations are an acceptable political tool... so long as you don't get caught.

I remember reading in 15 hours that the guardsmen from an Agriworld give up their rights as soon as they enlist, which of course suggests that the citizens of that particular world had rights at least.

Melissia wrote:
1: Worship the Emperor or burn, pretty much.

Not that there are many alternatives to the Emperor (in one form or the other) apart from Chaos or Xenos Gods. Unless a citizen got the the completely random idea of just starting their own religion. This would obviously come from a vision manifested from the Warp to subvert the Imperium, and thus should be discounted.

2: As long as you're proved right in the end and you aren't supporting chaos or xenos. The Imperium does not like losers.
3: See above. The Imperium despises losers. A rebellion overthrowing a corrupt governor is acceptable as long as they provide adequate proof (which is very easy to find in hindsight ), submit to the Imperium, and pay taxes.

Kinda like ours, donchathink?

4: Depends on the planet, but generally speaking most of the time it's propaganda or tabloids.
5: As stated, it's inefficient. Oftentimes violence is the best way to solve your problems, and assassinations are an acceptable political tool... so long as you don't get caught.

Kinda like ours, donchathink?

Perhaps we can look at the IoM in a way that its worlds are its citizens and its citizens as cells working to allow the planet to work and pay taxes as well as gaining more resources. Space Marines and IG would be like the police/antibiotics to enforce this law, evade taxes and you must be brought to ''justice''. just my two cents

Ok now, we agree that they have some right's - and some not. But what about other races?

Tau - definitely more rights than average Human.
Orks - fight until death....
Tyranids - "all serve the hive mind..." worse than Imperial propaganda.
Chaos - "all serve Chaos gods..." even worse than hive mind.
Eldar - can't enjoy in life or even die without fear to be swallow by god of pleasure.
Necron - "all serve Star Gods..." did I mention this already?

And I doubt that anyone but Tau and maybe Eldar have more freedom and civil rights than Imperial citizen. Am I right?

Brother Coa wrote:Ok now, we agree that they have some right's - and some not. But what about other races?

Tau - definitely more rights than average Human.
Orks - fight until death....
Tyranids - "all serve the hive mind..." worse than Imperial propaganda.
Chaos - "all serve Chaos gods..." even worse than hive mind.
Eldar - can't enjoy in life or even die without fear to be swallow by god of pleasure.
Necron - "all serve Star Gods..." did I mention this already?

And I doubt that anyone but Tau and maybe Eldar have more freedom and civil rights than Imperial citizen. Am I right?

You seem a bit confused about what rights are.

Tau - Precious little is known about them. What we do know suggests a highly regimented society. They have castes and everything focuses on the greater good - i.e. the giving up of the self for the whole. It's quite possible that this means that "rights" aren't tolerated (because they're "selfish" and therefore don't serve the Greater Good). But we don't reallly know that.
Orks - "fight until death..." Which means what, exactly, in regards to rights? Ork society focuses on doing whatever you want whenever you want. It's just that everyone in that society likes to fight. To an ork, the concept of rights would be foreign because it would imply that there are times that you don't do what you want.
Chaos - Chaos is all about freedom, and therefore you have plenty of "rights" in Chaotic society. But the thing to remember is that excess feeds the Chaos powers, and excess is basically willfulness taken to extremes. It's the use and abuse of rights that put most of the Chaotics into the Eye of Terror in the first place. Just because you can agitate for change doesn't mean that it's a good thing to do. Just because you can have sex with 500 people at the same time doesn't mean that it won't get you into serious trouble.
Eldar - Eldar can enjoy life and do. Otherwise they wouldn't continue living (since lack of enjoyment leads to misery). It's just that they control how they enjoy their life in order to avoid triggering that oh so problematic excess. Given that what little information we have regarding them suggests that they live in a post-scarcity society, I suspect that they enjoy quite a few rights - with one key exception regarding anything that might involve Chaos.

Tyranids and Necrons are largely puppets of their masters (C'Tan in the former case and the Hive Mind in the latter) and are as incapable of excercising true free will as they are of enjoying a pizza.

Eumerin wrote:

You seem a bit confused about what rights are.

Tau - Precious little is known about them. What we do know suggests a highly regimented society. They have castes and everything focuses on the greater good - i.e. the giving up of the self for the whole. It's quite possible that this means that "rights" aren't tolerated (because they're "selfish" and therefore don't serve the Greater Good). But we don't reallly know that.
Orks - "fight until death..." Which means what, exactly, in regards to rights? Ork society focuses on doing whatever you want whenever you want. It's just that everyone in that society likes to fight. To an ork, the concept of rights would be foreign because it would imply that there are times that you don't do what you want.
Chaos - Chaos is all about freedom, and therefore you have plenty of "rights" in Chaotic society. But the thing to remember is that excess feeds the Chaos powers, and excess is basically willfulness taken to extremes. It's the use and abuse of rights that put most of the Chaotics into the Eye of Terror in the first place. Just because you can agitate for change doesn't mean that it's a good thing to do. Just because you can have sex with 500 people at the same time doesn't mean that it won't get you into serious trouble.
Eldar - Eldar can enjoy life and do. Otherwise they wouldn't continue living (since lack of enjoyment leads to misery). It's just that they control how they enjoy their life in order to avoid triggering that oh so problematic excess. Given that what little information we have regarding them suggests that they live in a post-scarcity society, I suspect that they enjoy quite a few rights - with one key exception regarding anything that might involve Chaos.

Tyranids and Necrons are largely puppets of their masters (C'Tan in the former case and the Hive Mind in the latter) and are as incapable of excercising true free will as they are of enjoying a pizza.

Are you insane?

Tau - you are basically right, but the thing is: BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT THEIR PERSONAL LIFE WE CANNOT ARGUE ABOUT THEIR RIGHTS!!! What if Tau also have pubs, sport stadiums, cinemas... What if ordinary Tau citizen may have a car, house, go to vacation.... Compare them to USSR, Soviet citizens also worked for grater good, but they have a lot of freedom in their private life. And enjoy many entities of Soviet culture.
Orks - Humans have more rights than Ork because Human know for other things in life besides killing everyone. Ork only live to fight another being, even another Ork. They have only one purpuse in life and that's it.
Chaos - chaos is HELL, warp realm is HELL ITSELF and chaos gods are SATAN IN GENERAL!!! And you talk about rights and freedom, when did Satan give right to someone, or something. Never, they use mortal souls to bribe them and offer them life that seems good - but it is not. You talk about Chaos like they are the good guys? And not just you, can't people really see under the mask of pleasure and "smiled face"? Chaos only use mortal beings to gather souls and strength from them, they give them pleasure - first. But they they will give them eternity of pain and suffering. And you say thet Chaos minions are not puppets for their masters? Where did you go to school? Nazi Germany?
Eldar - That's not the point. Eldar cannot enjoy life because of us. Human can have sex all night and day, can be drunk all day, can laugh all day long, enjoy tons of food as he eat, can use drugs to "stimulate" itself, love, cry... Eldars cannot do all that without threat of Chaos Gods. And because of that they hate us. All our felling had to go to some Chaos God, but Humans are under protection of the Emperor, while Eldar are on their own. I actually fell sorry for them, they can't even piss without fear of their soul taken by Chaos.

Next time, please read a little more before you post something.

Brother Coa wrote:
Chaos - chaos is HELL, warp realm is HELL ITSELF and chaos gods are SATAN IN GENERAL!!! And you talk about rights and freedom, when did Satan give right to someone, or something. Never, they use mortal souls to bribe them and offer them life that seems good - but it is not. You talk about Chaos like they are the good guys? And not just you, can't people really see under the mask of pleasure and "smiled face"? Chaos only use mortal beings to gather souls and strength from them, they give them pleasure - first. But they they will give them eternity of pain and suffering. And you say thet Chaos minions are not puppets for their masters? Where did you go to school? Nazi Germany?

I second that.
When we talk about rights, we should just forget about Chaos, nids, necrons and orks. We should focus on factions that present an organised form of society and civilisation: Imperium, Tau empire, eldars, and (maybe) DE.

Brother Coa wrote:Are you insane?

No. But it appears that you're more interested in arguing than reading what I wrote. And LOSE THE CAPS!!!!

(and exclamation points)

Tau - you are basically right, but the thing is: BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT THEIR PERSONAL LIFE WE CANNOT ARGUE ABOUT THEIR RIGHTS!!! What if Tau also have pubs, sport stadiums, cinemas... What if ordinary Tau citizen may have a car, house, go to vacation.... Compare them to USSR, Soviet citizens also worked for grater good, but they have a lot of freedom in their private life. And enjoy many entities of Soviet culture.

1.) I noted that we don't know much about the Tau.
2.) The former Soviet citizens might object to the idea that they had lots of "freedoms". They couldn't speak up. They lived in fear of their neighbors spying on them. They had to be wary of doing things like quoting Western news sources (I read about one guy who was arrested because he quoted a Western news article about the Iron Curtain. According to the powers that be, he was obviously guilty because the Iron Curtain was a Western notion.). Basically, off the top of my head I can't think of anything found in the US Bill of Rights that would apply to the citizens of the Soviet Union while it existed (not to say that they might not have enjoyed some of the rights found there; I just can't think of any off-hand).

Orks - Humans have more rights than Ork because Human know for other things in life besides killing everyone. Ork only live to fight another being, even another Ork. They have only one purpuse in life and that's it.

Nope. You're confusing ignorance and lack of desire with rights. Just because Orks don't want to do anything else doesn't mean that they don't have rights. If all I want to do is sit in my apartment all day long and play video games, does that somehow mean that my rights have been curtailed? Just because you don't excercise a right doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Chaos - chaos is HELL, warp realm is HELL ITSELF and chaos gods are SATAN IN GENERAL!!! And you talk about rights and freedom, when did Satan give right to someone, or something. Never, they use mortal souls to bribe them and offer them life that seems good - but it is not. You talk about Chaos like they are the good guys? And not just you, can't people really see under the mask of pleasure and "smiled face"? Chaos only use mortal beings to gather souls and strength from them, they give them pleasure - first. But they they will give them eternity of pain and suffering. And you say thet Chaos minions are not puppets for their masters? Where did you go to school? Nazi Germany?

I never said that Chaos were "good guys". If you'd actually bothered to read what I wrote, then you'd note that the problem with Chaos is that it encourages too much freedom and not enough restraint. The problem with Chaos is the excess. Control and self-discipline are the key to overcoming Chaos. i.e. recognizing when it is not appropriate to excercise your rights.

Or in other words, Chaos is proof that doing whatever you want whenever you want can be very, very, very bad.

Eldar - That's not the point. Eldar cannot enjoy life because of us. Human can have sex all night and day, can be drunk all day, can laugh all day long, enjoy tons of food as he eat, can use drugs to "stimulate" itself, love, cry... Eldars cannot do all that without threat of Chaos Gods. And because of that they hate us. All our felling had to go to some Chaos God, but Humans are under protection of the Emperor, while Eldar are on their own. I actually fell sorry for them, they can't even piss without fear of their soul taken by Chaos.

Bzzt. Wrong!

The Eldar have problems because their emotional responses are so much more heightened than a human's are. Imagine the happiest moment of your life. Now multiply the happiness you felt by a factor of five. That is how an Eldar feels. And that's why they have the paths - to limit their emotional responses to "safe" levels.

Eldar are ruled less by enforced laws, but have huge amounts of social nuences and obligations.

Tau appear to be more lax in what you do in your spare time, but your role in life is pretty much predetermined. You are borne to be a janitor, no request for transfer...ever.

Tyranids have as much freedom as your fingernail does, freedom isn't applicable.

Chaos cultists are... complicated, you have all the freedom in the world, but become enslaved from the addictions you pick up on the way.

Eumerin wrote:1.) I noted that we don't know much about the Tau.
2.) The former Soviet citizens might object to the idea that they had lots of "freedoms". They couldn't speak up. They lived in fear of their neighbors spying on them. They had to be wary of doing things like quoting Western news sources (I read about one guy who was arrested because he quoted a Western news article about the Iron Curtain. According to the powers that be, he was obviously guilty because the Iron Curtain was a Western notion.). Basically, off the top of my head I can't think of anything found in the US Bill of Rights that would apply to the citizens of the Soviet Union while it existed (not to say that they might not have enjoyed some of the rights found there; I just can't think of any off-hand).

Nope. You're confusing ignorance and lack of desire with rights. Just because Orks don't want to do anything else doesn't mean that they don't have rights. If all I want to do is sit in my apartment all day long and play video games, does that somehow mean that my rights have been curtailed? Just because you don't excercise a right doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

I never said that Chaos were "good guys". If you'd actually bothered to read what I wrote, then you'd note that the problem with Chaos is that it encourages too much freedom and not enough restraint. The problem with Chaos is the excess. Control and self-discipline are the key to overcoming Chaos. i.e. recognizing when it is not appropriate to excercise your rights.

Or in other words, Chaos is proof that doing whatever you want whenever you want can be very, very, very bad.

Bzzt. Wrong!

The Eldar have problems because their emotional responses are so much more heightened than a human's are. Imagine the happiest moment of your life. Now multiply the happiness you felt by a factor of five. That is how an Eldar feels. And that's why they have the paths - to limit their emotional responses to "safe" levels.

Ok now....

1. For Soviet citizens, yes. But I have lived in Communist Yugoslavia, and here you have rights to say everything you want, except maybe Tito - but everybody loved him so we will assume that none had nothing against him at that time. In SFRJ people have a great amount of rights, we had a good relationship with the west, we had our car industry, we could actually buy apartment at that time. And even the state was giving apartments to the "ordinary" people. We have some problems with corruption, but nothing serious. People here will remember communist times as "golden" times.
2. I will recognize Ork right of speech against other races. But as long as that do not say against warboss he will live. To have rights is to use them in real life. Give me evidence that some Ork let go the life of fighting to enjoy social right he was given with his birth. There is no evidence because Ork will always pick Axe above the life of luxury and pleasure. And again you and I are Humans, not Orks. And since Orks do not have constitution of any kind except listen to the biggest Ork around - I declare that they have no rights.
3. For Chaos you wright "Chaos is all about freedom, and therefore you have plenty of "rights" in Chaotic society". So they can get everything you want and in return they only ask of you to enjoy? That's how I understand what you wright en here. The main question about Chaos will forever be : what's with the soul? Soul is an essence of everybody, the peron in general if you want. If you give that, what do you become? Free citizen? The problem with Chaos is that what touches it corrupts, and many people go freely with that thing. Chaos destroy Human from within, it will give you right but in the end you will have nothing. You will only be a puppet and servant to the Chaos gods.
4. Give me evidence that Eldar can enjoy more than Humans. As I recall, Humans and Eldar share same physiology - and possibly have same ancestor (Old Ones?). So in general - they are like us. They just have much more faster metabolism that gives them nonhuman speed and immortality. And much more psykers than us. But in general they are like us - maybe even worse from the point of view. And you can take your "emotional responses are so much more heightened than a human's are" with you. Read their history and the birth of Slaanesh. His is Eldar mortal enemy, and they restrain themselves of any pleasure because even the slightest pleasure can recall him, and then he send his daemons after them.

Face it - Human have much more rights than any other race in 40k, even if he lives on a Imperial world.

You need to stop reading Old fluff.

Eldar and Humans do NOT share a common ancestor.

Brother Coa wrote:Are you insane?

Tau - you are basically right, but the thing is: BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT THEIR PERSONAL LIFE WE CANNOT ARGUE ABOUT THEIR RIGHTS!!! What if Tau also have pubs, sport stadiums, cinemas... What if ordinary Tau citizen may have a car, house, go to vacation.... Compare them to USSR, Soviet citizens also worked for grater good, but they have a lot of freedom in their private life. And enjoy many entities of Soviet culture.

A. you literally have no idea about what it was actually like to live in the USSR, maybe you should actually ask a Russian who lived through it (russians had more options that other USSR states) golags, spying on civilians, censorship, starvation and rationing, gas chambers on trucks, the kjb, book burnings and banned cultural items.

B. The tau are not communist.

Brother Coa wrote:Orks - Humans have more rights than Ork because Human know for other things in life besides killing everyone. Ork only live to fight another being, even another Ork. They have only one purpuse in life and that's it.

Orks do what they want when they want as long as they can beat up anyone who disapproves, they are free. Orks want to fight, the only way to remove their 'civil rights' would be to stop them from fighting.

Brother Coa wrote:Chaos - chaos is HELL, warp realm is HELL ITSELF and chaos gods are SATAN IN GENERAL!!! And you talk about rights and freedom, when did Satan give right to someone, or something. Never, they use mortal souls to bribe them and offer them life that seems good - but it is not. You talk about Chaos like they are the good guys? And not just you, can't people really see under the mask of pleasure and "smiled face"? Chaos only use mortal beings to gather souls and strength from them, they give them pleasure - first. But they they will give them eternity of pain and suffering. And you say thet Chaos minions are not puppets for their masters? Where did you go to school? Nazi Germany?

A. A misinterpretation of what the warp is and who first created GW and 40K, seeing as the creators weren't christian it is very doubtful that they put any 'moral storytelling' into the game.

B. Mortal minions of chaos are trapped in a storm of gak, but CSM however are free to do what they like when they like.

Brother Coa wrote:Eldar - That's not the point. Eldar cannot enjoy life because of us. Human can have sex all night and day, can be drunk all day, can laugh all day long, enjoy tons of food as he eat, can use drugs to "stimulate" itself, love, cry... Eldars cannot do all that without threat of Chaos Gods. And because of that they hate us. All our felling had to go to some Chaos God, but Humans are under protection of the Emperor, while Eldar are on their own. I actually fell sorry for them, they can't even piss without fear of their soul taken by Chaos.

The problem here is that you are comparing eldar to human. You also seem to think that to have freedom you must go to the extremes of excess, which isn't true. The eldar live in craftworlds by choice, they choose what they do. It is like you looking down on a buddist monk for have 'no freedom or rights' just because he chose a different path in life.

Brother Coa wrote:Next time, please read a little more before you post something.

Irony much

Brother Coa wrote:

Eldar - That's not the point. Eldar cannot enjoy life because of us. Human can have sex all night and day, can be drunk all day, can laugh all day long, enjoy tons of food as he eat, can use drugs to "stimulate" itself, love, cry... Eldars cannot do all that without threat of Chaos Gods. And because of that they hate us. All our felling had to go to some Chaos God, but Humans are under protection of the Emperor, while Eldar are on their own. I actually fell sorry for them, they can't even piss without fear of their soul taken by Chaos.

Say Whaaaa?? I am fairly sure the reason they don't 'enjoy' as much as what you have described is mainly to do with what happened last time they did, not the workings of a lesser race. Building onto that most Eldar probably don't hate humans, with the exception of Biel'Tan, because most Eldar see the Human race as little more than a barely evolved animals. That mainly comes from the fact that before mankind pulled themselves from the primordial sludge as multi-celled organisims the Eldar had an empire that spaned most of the known Galaxy. I would also say that before you go and pity them because they don't have the golden child of the Empra, the Eldar race have fought against the ruinious powers long before man and have cast back the Star Gods with their full host of Necrons in the War of Heaven.

The quote " An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbvarred and unguarded" springs to mind, Freedom of thought is not encouraged in the imperium, stagnation rules it takes along time to change anything and most new ideas are viewed with distaste and suspiscion at best and a flamer at worst, the imperium cant afford to be lax with its citizens as only through strength of purpose and unity can mankind survive.

that said some worlds are better than others and most common imperial citizens are so far below the raidar, and insignificant in the eyes of their superiors, that they can pretty much think what they want as long as they dint shout too loudly about it.

BluntmanDC wrote:

A. you literally have no idea about what it was actually like to live in the USSR, maybe you should actually ask a Russian who lived through it (russians had more options that other USSR states) golags, spying on civilians, censorship, starvation and rationing, gas chambers on trucks, the kjb, book burnings and banned cultural items.

B. The tau are not communist.

Orks do what they want when they want as long as they can beat up anyone who disapproves, they are free. Orks want to fight, the only way to remove their 'civil rights' would be to stop them from fighting.

A. A misinterpretation of what the warp is and who first created GW and 40K, seeing as the creators weren't christian it is very doubtful that they put any 'moral storytelling' into the game.

B. Mortal minions of chaos are trapped in a storm of gak, but CSM however are free to do what they like when they like.

The problem here is that you are comparing eldar to human. You also seem to think that to have freedom you must go to the extremes of excess, which isn't true. The eldar live in craftworlds by choice, they choose what they do. It is like you looking down on a buddist monk for have 'no freedom or rights' just because he chose a different path in life.

Irony much

Ok...I have to teach you to.

1.I have idea because I was raised in post-war Yugoslavia. And I am a historian to. I know that Soviets didn't allow much rights to their citizens. But they have some forms of rights. I talked with some Russians about that, they say that life was actually better in that times than now. Cutting up some rights brings to more stable society. They have some flaws in their history, but situation was much batter in 60 and 70. Tau are not communist? Please, the first tough of communism is that all are working toward the "Grater Good" of society. Tau are not communist, but they are based upon them, just as Space Marines are based on medieval knights.

2.Just the thing I was saying about Orks. They have no rights because they have no knowledge about them. To have rights on the first place you must have constitution to define them, each society has different traditions. And since the Orks have no constitution they have no civil rights. Only right they have is to do whatever they want with their lives until they die, by the hands of bigger Ork or in hand of someone else. Point is, Ork will never try to enjoy something else than the war.

3. Tell you what you want about the warp, it is pure evil. And CSM are insane, and do we let insane people walk all around us? We lock them up because insane people can't rationalize. Chaos minions don't have right because their gods are more concierned to rule the universe than to take care of their slaves.

4. I will quote lexicanum "It is suggested Eldar and Mankind share a common ancestor. There is little physical difference between Eldar and humans, and it is said the two races are genetically close enough that it is possible for them to interbreed." And then you tell me that Eldar and Humans are not the same. Same body, same physiology, small differences. But you are right. I cannot judge them if they choosing to live like this, than against what happened if some Eldar want to have a home on some planet? What if some Eldar want to have more things than they already have? Like Buddhist monk want to own a Landcruser? They cannot because they are teach not to ask for such a things, to know only service to their people. And what liberty is that? Maybe their leaders choose that, but what about individuals?

True irony indeed

From the eldar 4e codex, page 3:

"To an eldar, all of life's experience's are available to a heightened degree: the intellectual rewards of study, the exhilaration of battle, and every available sensation. This potential for joy is paralelled by an equal capacity to feel despair, anger and even hatred.

No creature, not even an eldar, can taste such rich fruits in an uncontrolled way without consequence. For an eldar to yield absolutely to such desires would destroy him."

There is a subtle but distinct line between saying that because the consequences are dire, that an eldar has no rights to said excess of experience, to saying that he does have the rights but would almost universally choose not to go to such excesses because of the consequences.

This is liking saying I do not have a right to smoke because I recognise that it may eventually kill me. There is no law against it, but its probably not sensible, even if it is enjoyable. Likewise the eldar have no prohibition on their actions, regards said excesses, save for that which they sensibly choose to impose on themselves.

I would say Eldar are the most free of all the races. They can choose whatever path in life they wish and conscription is very rare and only temporary.

Orks have no need for "rights" rights are put in place by society to protect individuals from being abused or taken advantage of, these concepts are utterly alien and inconceivable to an Ork, Ork kulture is built purely on strength, the strongest Orks are in charge and everyone else stays out of thier way and hops to it when given an order or they get squished.

Creatures genetically engineered to get satisfaction from war and fighting and little else certainly dont have a need for rights, may as well offer the Hive Mind Sundays off or the Necrons a dental plan

So Eldar won't embrace their right because they know consequences? Like riding a fast jetbike at top speed may cause death? Or drinking to much may cause pain and hallucination? Man, it sucked being an Eldar.

Conscription is not possible because one Imperial Hive world have more citizens than entire Eldar race. It's logical when you have no manpower you do not waste lives.

My point exactly, Orks know only for war ant that's that.

The main right that gives Human advantage over other races is right to chose with who to fight. Human can fight with Tau or Eldar or Chaos. Aliens and heretics will never be able to fight in Human army's, but a Human can always join army's other than Imperial. And Human to can chose his own path, except maybe becoming a Space Marine. Or planetary governor.

Brother Coa wrote:So Eldar won't embrace their right because they know consequences? Like riding a fast jetbike at top speed may cause death? Or drinking to much may cause pain and hallucination? Man, it sucked being an Eldar.

Conscription is not possible because one Imperial Hive world have more citizens than entire Eldar race. It's logical when you have no manpower you do not waste lives.

So? What does it matter? The point is when I'm 18 I don't get drafted into the army for a period of "until death".

The conscription idea is interesting insofar as I would be curious to know which race, given the war torn state of the 41st millenium, has many who choose not to fight. It seems that maybe only the humans have the numerical capacity to have any proportion of their population not directly at the pointy end of things. Even if such a luxury is not exercised, as you have pointed out.

I have read quite a few stuff, novels and articles about the IoM. And I always paid a lot attention to the bits concerning Imperial society. From there, I concluded that the IoM was (in most cases) what could be described as a "not so mean" dictatorship. In most cases, Imperial societies are organised under an oligarchy, a directory or a feudal system. It means that imperial citizens often don't choose their rulers or the laws they live under.

However, laws seem to be rarely utterly unfair and citizens seem to be (more or less) protected by the state. I found a good example of that in the novel "titanicus", by Dan Abnett. In this novel, a normal citizen requests an authorization to emigrate with his wife to a nearby forge world. This authorisation is granted by imperial authorities (after a complicated beaurocratic process), under certain conditions. The main condition was that his wife had to serve in the reserve of the pdf (yes the RESERVE of the pdf, not even the normal pdf) one month in a year. But since the character is a qualified worker, the government of the forge world pays for the family's traveling and relocating expenses.

I think this example illustrates well the civil rights in the IoM. These rights are often controlled or even limited by imperial law, but the governement is not unfair and (to some extent) looks after its citizens.
I suppose the same situation applies for the Tau empire and their greater good oligarchy. I think eldar enjoy more limited rights since their race is on the verge of extinction and only survives through important social sacrifices (self-discipline, conscription, etc...).

The thing about Eldar, is that they do have rights, more then most Imperial Citivens anyway. You want to create beautiful things you become an Artisan, You want to fight for your Craftworld, you join an Aspect Shrine, You want to explore your Psychic abilities (rare for any Imperial Citizen to do this) you become a seer. In this way the Eldar explore each part of their natures without taking it over the top by murdering everyone in their path because they're "exercising their rights" And if an Eldar wants to enjoy a time away from the lifestyle of the Craftworld, he or she becomes an outcast, travel a bit, raids some starships, looks for treasure, or snipes people between the eyes. I don't know about you but I would gladely be an Eldar Craftworld inhabitant rather then an Imperial Citizen.

Oriallis wrote:The thing about Eldar, is that they do have rights, more then most Imperial Citivens anyway. You want to create beautiful things you become an Artisan, You want to fight for your Craftworld, you join an Aspect Shrine, You want to explore your Psychic abilities (rare for any Imperial Citizen to do this) you become a seer. In this way the Eldar explore each part of their natures without taking it over the top by murdering everyone in their path because they're "exercising their rights" And if an Eldar wants to enjoy a time away from the lifestyle of the Craftworld, he or she becomes an outcast, travel a bit, raids some starships, looks for treasure, or snipes people between the eyes. I don't know about you but I would gladely be an Eldar Craftworld inhabitant rather then an Imperial Citizen.

This sound to me like haven. Then I remember that on 1 Eldar comes entire star system full of Humans. Of course you don't have need to fight your way trough top when that place is already secure, because there are little people to take it. And Human can also do all that without murdering anyone, if he is in nobilities or he has a little more money than others. But what is the best thing you can do as a Human? Pick up your Lasgun and shoot some aliens

Are going to have to define what 'Civil Rights' are here? Becuase I think there is a bit of confusion.

these two quotes pretty much sum the Imperium up for me as far as freedoms/rights/obligations go:
"An open mind is like a fortress with it's gates unbarred and unguarded"

"Only in death does duty end"

Field Marshall Terry wrote:these two quotes pretty much sum the Imperium up for me as far as freedoms/rights/obligations go:
"An open mind is like a fortress with it's gates unbarred and unguarded"

"Only in death does duty end"

This is definitely right for the various (and numerous) members of the imperial armed forces, but I don't think these two statements apply for the average citizen of the imperium. At least, not with such extremity.
The citizens of the Imperium are probably subject to important social control and restrictions, but they probably enjoy some social freedom and rights. I guess it's a bit like the citizens of the USSR: a powerful and centralised state, with strict laws and (relatively) restricted rights, but the citizens still retain some fundamental freedoms.
The Imperium probaby strictly controls and monitors the lives and rights of its citizens, but it probably does not treat them as slaves.

Rights in 40k depend on race, location, and stature; Structured societies are the only races that can sustain what we view as "rights".
-Imperium:
Hive World: Little to no right due to the enourmous population and the need for work to be done.
Agri World: Many more than a hive world, this is due to the low populations and less work load. The low population means local government can treat citizens better.
Forge World: Basically the same as a Hive World.....
Military World: Probably have a different name but whatever, you are serving the emperor....... you will die doing this.
-Tau:
The Tau have a facade of a balanced stable society, however they are controlled by Etheralls so there cant be any right's.
-Eldar:
Eldar had many more rights at one point, before the birth of Slaanesh they lived care-free lives filled with gluttony, sex, and countless other pleasures. Now though they are
constantly on the run to survive on their mobile worlds and have probably become a much more strict society.
-Dark Eldar:
Probably the same as the old Eldar way of life, Dark Eldar themselves are probably treated fine, their slaves however would probably tell a different tale.
-Tyranid, Ork's, Chaos, Necron's:
N/A

I think the 2 main variables are what world you're on and who/what you are.

An underhive ganger might not be entitled to anything, no trials, no police protection, property can be taken at will, heck the whole underhive can be gassed to clean out vermin.

A noble however will have the full weight of Imperial law protecting him from anyone below, and even, to a certain extent, those above. Maybe a full Inquisitor can execute him without a trial, but even the bit I would think twice before doing that. And anyone else would have a hard time hurting the noble's interests.

Everyone else is negociable. What's your class or caste? Who are your patrons? Who's gunning for you? What did you do?

So no, there are not guanteed human rights for everyone. Some societies offer protections but only for some and even they have limits.

Brother Coa wrote:
The main right that gives Human advantage over other races is right to chose with who to fight. Human can fight with Tau or Eldar or Chaos. Aliens and heretics will never be able to fight in Human army's, but a Human can always join army's other than Imperial. And Human to can chose his own path, except maybe becoming a Space Marine. Or planetary governor.

Uhm I think you're confused on what rights are. Imperial citezens absolutly do not have the right to fight for other races, in fact announcing that they wanted to leave the imperium would be a death sentence. Being physically able to make a choice to leave and actually being allowed to do it are two completly different things. I can murder people if I want but society doesn't give me the rights to and would punish me if I did.

Also it's quite incorrect to assume anyone can sneakily up and leave to another xenos society at all. For one Imperial propaganda is violently suppressive of all knowledge of chaos, other societies etc. If you lived in the imperium do you really think you'd know that the Tau all work together and are happy? No and even if the Tau happened to come into contact with your world the imperial propaganda machine would say things like how the Tau are liars and are actually an evil race looking to enslave humanity. Look at countries like North Korea, they are raised to believe that west are the enemy and how we are all immoral etc to discourage people wanting to leave, but then on top of that the free thinking people who do try and leave are usually forced to remain against their will.

The only way you could get inducted into the Tau empire is if you were lucky enough to have a governor who wanted to defect, if your governor says no and has the strength to enforce his rule then you will most likely die in the ensuing war between the two. Same for Chaos, saying you have the "right" to worship Chaos is asinine as you clearly don't, sure you could worship chaos but If you get found out then you will be put to death. Again if you are lucky enough to gather enough like minded individuals to be able to overthrow the governor or corrupt him then you could leave but then you would no longer be an imperial citizen so the argument of whether or not you have rights would be irrelevant as this whole discussion is about wherer or not imperials have rights.

All right, this is not going anywhere. Who can tell me what civil rights are?

Wikipedia says "Civil and political rights are a class of rights that protect individuals' freedom from unwarranted infringement by governments and private organizations, and ensure one's ability to participate in the civil and political life of the state without discrimination or repression." from that, w can take that civil rights are everything from freedom of speech to not giving up your seat on a bus.

It seems the Imperium is seriously lacking in civil rights as we know it. You aren't free to worship who you want, that's heresy. You aren't free to say what you want, that's heresy. You aren't free to associate with whom you choose, that's heresy.

Civil rights in the Imperium have been traded away from the protection of the Emperor. And given how often people are killed because "the emperor protects" I'd say that perhaps they didn't read the fine print. On the other hand at certain points, the choice is to be free and die horribly, or live under the oppression of the Imperium and maybe not die horribly for now.

John Locke said that Citizens have a choice on a mix of freedom and protection. If you want all Freedom, there is nothing that stops another person from killing you and taking all of your stuff

The Imperium appears to be high on Protection low on Freedom, this could be explained by the high amount of dangers that besiege the Imperium.

Brother Coa wrote:All right, this is not going anywhere. Who can tell me what civil rights are?

So because I just explained how something you said was incorrect the discussion isn't going anywhere?

I'll admit that this discussion will be fruitless because people of different cultures have different definitions and expectaions of civil rights and we're applying it to a society 38,000 in the future, but all I was stating was that the examples you gave were not even examples of rights just a list of things a person could theoretically do given the choice.

Oriallis wrote:John Locke said that Citizens have a choice on a mix of freedom and protection. If you want all Freedom, there is nothing that stops another person from killing you and taking all of your stuff

The Imperium appears to be high on Protection low on Freedom, this could be explained by the high amount of dangers that besiege the Imperium.

Very nice point.

I second that.

from what I can tell they have no rights at all. Neither do any of the other races

KorPhaeron77 wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:All right, this is not going anywhere. Who can tell me what civil rights are?

So because I just explained how something you said was incorrect the discussion isn't going anywhere?

I'll admit that this discussion will be fruitless because people of different cultures have different definitions and expectaions of civil rights and we're applying it to a society 38,000 in the future, but all I was stating was that the examples you gave were not even examples of rights just a list of things a person could theoretically do given the choice.

I mean that everyone has it's own opinion on rights. You where right about that, but we cannot compare 40k and present. For 38.000 years is just to much for one civilization. Today right are giving you freedom of speech, freedom to say what you want, to believe what you want... In 40k t believe what you want is just to dangerous, even the slightest wrong thought van awoke daemon. Some people even wrought that Orks have lot of rights in their society? So I asked what rights are to determine them, and according to Wikipedia - no race in 40k has full civil rights. And only 3 races have some form of civilization for rights to exist. And great number of people see this quite differently than others. For example, I think that today some rights must be taken away for society to became more stable.

Brother Coa wrote:Orks - Humans have more rights than Ork because Human know for other things in life besides killing everyone. Ork only live to fight another being, even another Ork. They have only one purpuse in life and that's it.

... for someone who tries to claim that other people need to read more, you don't know that much about Orks.

Orks love many things. They love going fast. They love fighting. They love loud noises, especially gunfire. Orks that are good with mechanics (Mekboyz) love technology. A lot. Meanwhile Doks (And Mad Doks) love biology. A bit too much. Orks love drinking, and Brewboyz love brewing fungus beer. And of course, all Orks want to be nobz or its equivalent (Big Meks for example), and even eventually a warboss. Not all of them are capable of being nobz and warbosses, but they still have the right to pursue it.

Orks have every right in their society to pursue all of these things, and anything else they might want. That they do not pursue all of the things we would pursue doesn't mean that they don't have the right to do so... it just means that they don't want it anyway. Sure, an Ork could decide to get into art and start painting.... but why would they want to?

Melissia wrote:Orks love many things. They love going fast. They love fighting. They love loud noises, especially gunfire.

Ah, the simple things in life.

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Orks - Humans have more rights than Ork because Human know for other things in life besides killing everyone. Ork only live to fight another being, even another Ork. They have only one purpuse in life and that's it.

... for someone who tries to claim that other people need to read more, you don't know that much about Orks.

Orks love many things. They love going fast. They love fighting. They love loud noises, especially gunfire. Orks that are good with mechanics (Mekboyz) love technology. A lot. Meanwhile Doks (And Mad Doks) love biology. A bit too much. Orks love drinking, and Brewboyz love brewing fungus beer. And of course, all Orks want to be nobz or its equivalent (Big Meks for example), and even eventually a warboss. Not all of them are capable of being nobz and warbosses, but they still have the right to pursue it.

Orks have every right in their society to pursue all of these things, and anything else they might want. That they do not pursue all of the things we would pursue doesn't mean that they don't have the right to do so... it just means that they don't want it anyway. Sure, an Ork could decide to get into art and start painting.... but why would they want to?

Oh really.... Ork are very simple, they just live to fight and to kill - nothing more. That's how the Old Ones made them and is how it will be for the rest of their existence. Humans also love all that + MANY MANY MORE. But Humans are beings that love to wage war and conquer, Orks are beings who love to fight and kill. Nothing more, nothing less.
And here we talk about civil rights. And I know for certain that Orks don''t have any form of constitution, and because they have no state that actually cares about their citizens, they do not have civil rights. Unlike the Imperium who is protector of millions Human worlds.

Melissia wrote:Sure, an Ork could decide to get into art and start painting.... but why would they want to?

Cuz Da Boss needs a bigger WAAAGH! banner!

Brother Coa, I know its only a small thing, but stating your opinions as facts does little to allow for anyone else's thoughts on the matter. I know its a discussion, but starting with "in my opinion", or "I think" rather than stating thing like "Orks live to fight and kill and nothing more" like its you writing the codex feels like you're being condescending. It might not be what you're trying to achieve but its the way its coming across. Sure, things can get heated if you're passionate about the subject, but its no excuse for a lack of courtesy.

You're not the only person to have ever done this, and I;ve caught myself a few times, so don't think I'm being personal, I'm sure there are others reading this to whom it applies equally.

Brother Coa wrote:
Ok...I have to teach you to.

1.I have idea because I was raised in post-war Yugoslavia. And I am a historian to. I know that Soviets didn't allow much rights to their citizens. But they have some forms of rights. I talked with some Russians about that, they say that life was actually better in that times than now. Cutting up some rights brings to more stable society. They have some flaws in their history, but situation was much batter in 60 and 70. Tau are not communist? Please, the first tough of communism is that all are working toward the "Grater Good" of society. Tau are not communist, but they are based upon them, just as Space Marines are based on medieval knights.

Maybe you should ask the widows of men that 'disappeared' in the night, or political opposition sent to die in Siberia, or the thousands beaten because they read the wrong book.

I would hate to be taught history by someone so willfully biased and blind to the facts.

This is communism:

— n
1. advocacy of a classless society in which private ownership has been abolished and the means of production and subsistence belong to the community
2. any social, economic, or political movement or doctrine aimed at achieving such a society
3. ( usually capital ) Marxism Marxism-Leninism See also socialism a political movement based upon the writings of Marx that considers history in terms of class conflict and revolutionary struggle, resulting eventually in the victory of the proletariat and the establishment of a socialist order based on public ownership of the means of production
4. ( usually capital ) a social order or system of government established by a ruling Communist Party, esp in the former Soviet Union

The 'greater good' does not mean communism, seeing as every goverment/dictatorship say their system is for the greater good of their people.

People that claim Tau are communists or based on communist ideals are very incorrect. The fact that the Tau have a Caste system (Earth, Water, Fire ect) is the very opposite of communism, which seeks to create a classless society.

And I would say Tau have less rights than some Imperial Citizens. They are born into their caste and have no choice but to pursue a career in that area. I don't know to what extent Tau have their jobs picked out for them (and they do have news reporters ect, though these showed signs of censorship) but a member of the Earth Caste can never ply the stars at the helm of a ship, and a member of the Fire Caste can never really have any other choice but to take a step down the military path.

Reanimator wrote:Brother Coa, I know its only a small thing, but stating your opinions as facts does little to allow for anyone else's thoughts on the matter. I know its a discussion, but starting with "in my opinion", or "I think" rather than stating thing like "Orks live to fight and kill and nothing more" like its you writing the codex feels like you're being condescending. It might not be what you're trying to achieve but its the way its coming across. Sure, things can get heated if you're passionate about the subject, but its no excuse for a lack of courtesy.

You're not the only person to have ever done this, and I;ve caught myself a few times, so don't think I'm being personal, I'm sure there are others reading this to whom it applies equally.

Ok maybe you are right. But I am troubled by some people saying that Orks have bigger rights than Humans? And it's not my opinion about them, that's what their codex says about them. Maybe they don't have government like Humans, that gives them a lot of freedom. But it is in their very nature to fight, just it's in Human nature to explore. I respect other people thoughts, I started this post to learn new things about 40k background. But when someone tells me that Ork havew bigger rights than Human, it's like saying bulls have more rights than Humans?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BluntmanDC wrote:

Maybe you should ask the widows of men that 'disappeared' in the night, or political opposition sent to die in Siberia, or the thousands beaten because they read the wrong book.

I would hate to be taught history by someone so willfully biased and blind to the facts.

This is communism:

— n
1. advocacy of a classless society in which private ownership has been abolished and the means of production and subsistence belong to the community
2. any social, economic, or political movement or doctrine aimed at achieving such a society
3. ( usually capital ) Marxism Marxism-Leninism See also socialism a political movement based upon the writings of Marx that considers history in terms of class conflict and revolutionary struggle, resulting eventually in the victory of the proletariat and the establishment of a socialist order based on public ownership of the means of production
4. ( usually capital ) a social order or system of government established by a ruling Communist Party, esp in the former Soviet Union

The 'greater good' does not mean communism, seeing as every goverment/dictatorship say their system is for the greater good of their people.

I talk about SFRJ and you again talk about USSR, they are two completely different worlds. In SFRJ we have true comunism, and we lived 200% better than today, in this democracy. And I already said about "flaws in their history", that's unforgivable. And I am saying about 60-is and 70-is. When USSR have somewhat reasonable leaders. I am not talking about Stalin - he was butcher. And I am not blind to the facts - remember who saved our world order in the war. And witch country has taken the biggest civilian casualties in WW II. I don't say that they where the "good guys", if they where - USSR would still exist today.

Korphaeron may have the final point on this, as you have also expressed: Lots of people coming from different personal perspectives may not be able to agree on what the civil rights actually are that were trying to discuss in the first place. Wiki definitions are always a good reference, but they're obviously not something we all see the same way.

Given thats the case, reaching an end point that isn't a mutual standoff might take some time, if it ever happens.

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Orks - Humans have more rights than Ork because Human know for other things in life besides killing everyone. Ork only live to fight another being, even another Ork. They have only one purpuse in life and that's it.

... for someone who tries to claim that other people need to read more, you don't know that much about Orks.

Orks love many things. They love going fast. They love fighting. They love loud noises, especially gunfire. Orks that are good with mechanics (Mekboyz) love technology. A lot. Meanwhile Doks (And Mad Doks) love biology. A bit too much. Orks love drinking, and Brewboyz love brewing fungus beer. And of course, all Orks want to be nobz or its equivalent (Big Meks for example), and even eventually a warboss. Not all of them are capable of being nobz and warbosses, but they still have the right to pursue it.

Orks have every right in their society to pursue all of these things, and anything else they might want. That they do not pursue all of the things we would pursue doesn't mean that they don't have the right to do so... it just means that they don't want it anyway. Sure, an Ork could decide to get into art and start painting.... but why would they want to?

Oh really.... Ork are very simple, they just live to fight and to kill - nothing more.

Kinda like we humans live to feth and make babies, yes?

Yes.

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Orks - Humans have more rights than Ork because Human know for other things in life besides killing everyone. Ork only live to fight another being, even another Ork. They have only one purpuse in life and that's it.

... for someone who tries to claim that other people need to read more, you don't know that much about Orks.

Orks love many things. They love going fast. They love fighting. They love loud noises, especially gunfire. Orks that are good with mechanics (Mekboyz) love technology. A lot. Meanwhile Doks (And Mad Doks) love biology. A bit too much. Orks love drinking, and Brewboyz love brewing fungus beer. And of course, all Orks want to be nobz or its equivalent (Big Meks for example), and even eventually a warboss. Not all of them are capable of being nobz and warbosses, but they still have the right to pursue it.

Orks have every right in their society to pursue all of these things, and anything else they might want. That they do not pursue all of the things we would pursue doesn't mean that they don't have the right to do so... it just means that they don't want it anyway. Sure, an Ork could decide to get into art and start painting.... but why would they want to?

Oh really.... Ork are very simple, they just live to fight and to kill - nothing more.

Kinda like we humans live to feth and make babies, yes?

Yes.

Orks have made the perfect society for themselves,

"The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the humans, on the road to ruin in their own turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude." Uthan the Perverse Eldar philosopher taken from the Ork codex.

For them civil rights are not even a question, any ork can do whatever it wants, it even has the right to become boss, if it fullfills the task of "dislodging" the old one. You can say they don't have rights because they can't vote, there is no policing as far as I know, they have no right to medical, and they base their society on a definite class separation But that is exactly how they want it, its not really a "civil right" if NOBODY wants it.

yournamehere wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Orks - Humans have more rights than Ork because Human know for other things in life besides killing everyone. Ork only live to fight another being, even another Ork. They have only one purpuse in life and that's it.

... for someone who tries to claim that other people need to read more, you don't know that much about Orks.

Orks love many things. They love going fast. They love fighting. They love loud noises, especially gunfire. Orks that are good with mechanics (Mekboyz) love technology. A lot. Meanwhile Doks (And Mad Doks) love biology. A bit too much. Orks love drinking, and Brewboyz love brewing fungus beer. And of course, all Orks want to be nobz or its equivalent (Big Meks for example), and even eventually a warboss. Not all of them are capable of being nobz and warbosses, but they still have the right to pursue it.

Orks have every right in their society to pursue all of these things, and anything else they might want. That they do not pursue all of the things we would pursue doesn't mean that they don't have the right to do so... it just means that they don't want it anyway. Sure, an Ork could decide to get into art and start painting.... but why would they want to?

Oh really.... Ork are very simple, they just live to fight and to kill - nothing more.

Kinda like we humans live to feth and make babies, yes?

Yes.

Orks have made the perfect society for themselves,

"The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the humans, on the road to ruin in their own turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude." Uthan the Perverse Eldar philosopher taken from the Ork codex.

For them civil rights are not even a question, any ork can do whatever it wants, it even has the right to become boss, if it fullfills the task of "dislodging" the old one. You can say they don't have rights because they can't vote, there is no policing as far as I know, they have no right to medical, and they base their society on a definite class separation But that is exactly how they want it, its not really a "civil right" if NOBODY wants it.

You are absolutely right.

Orks for the win!

Which is sort of my point-- while they may have limited desires, they also have perfect freedom to carry out those desires within the limitations of their abilities. Thus, they have unlimited rights.

Exercising one's rights, of course, also means living up to the responsibility, like knowing that if you challenge the warboss he'll beat the snot out of you if you don't do it to him first.

What I said was supposed to be the bridge between. I think we all agree now then lol.

Currently eating my words.

It seems kind of difficult to me to compare the human societies to the non-human ones. This goes for almost any sci-fi universe. Humans are almost always portrayed as having a diverse cultural scene. The only thing that the humans of one planet may have in common with the humans of another is their biology and anatomy. As has been already said the level of civil liberties in the Imperium varies from world to world. Xenos one the other hand are only seen through a human lens. We see them as having a united and uniform culture for the most part because it is easier. There are some differences and variations but very few compared to the diversity that we see in humans. So it is sorta tough to say that Xenos have more or less rights than humans because we are only seeing them through a human lens.

Oh, we've seen Orks through their own eyes, in the hilariously awesome comic.