zedmeister wrote:So I've compiled a huge post of info about the banelegions range around what is known so far and the direction it is heading. I'll ask Kroothawk to see if he is willing to update the first post with at least some of this information so that the thread is a little clearer.
The current working title of the game spotted on a post here on Dakka is DarkLands and is indicated to be a skirmish game of some sort. Current estimates given for some kind of a more detailed announcement will be sometime in 2013. The background of the game will be set within an alternate Dark Ages around northwest Europe, beginning in the year 650.
Some snippets of the game and releases (collapsed for your pleasure):
Spoiler:
From Rob Lane of Maelstrom's interview on Frontline Gamer spliced with some additional information gleamed from some his posts on Dakka:
Frontline Gamer Interview wrote:
It should be noted here that each “race” has a number of “factions”, all of which will appear in the wargame, but upon first release only one “faction” from each “race” will be playable. (I'm inserting them in quotation marks because they won't be called such in the game, but it's inevitable that that's what people will call them). For example, the Anglian peoples also included the Northumbrians and the East Angles, but they are reserved for future productions, along with the Saxons, the Franks, the Dál Riatans, the Frisians... I could go on.
Dakka Post wrote:
I can tell you now: there will be no Orcs; there will be no Elves; there will be no Dwarfs. They have been done to death and we are, frankly, fed up of seeing such things. Our setting is man and beast. fethed up man and beast, but man and beast nonetheless. That's not to say that Orcs, Elves and Dwarfs won't feature as separate miniatures in BaneLegions, of course - because they already do.
...
One more thing: our game will be dark fantasy. It won't be for the faint-hearted. We may even self-impose an 18 rating on it. It will be a game for adults and will depict many horrifying things. There will be no black and white: it will be all shades of grey...!
...
Yes, our wargame will include all sorts of troop types - not just monsters and characters. Watch this space!
...
And yes, the DarkLands range/game is dark fantasy and will feature adult imagery - It won't be a pleasant place to live.
A breakdown of the currently known factions and peoples, their releases and concepts:
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Anglians (Mercia)
Frontline Gamer Interview wrote:
Anglians (Mercia) - residing in central Angle-land, the Mercians are led by their pagan king Penda the Bloody-Handed, who still believes in the old gods where other Anglians and Saxons believe in the new God, brought to them by the missionaries of Ilkolmkill. The power of Woden runs through the Mercians, and you can expect lots of wolves, bears and boars along with the Wild Hunt and the shape-shifters.
Dakka Post wrote:
Beowulf at this time is already a legend within the Seaxons. In reality the Mercians were originally Angles (Anglaland, England), but using Angles, Jutes and Saxons could get a little confusing so I'm just going to call them Seaxons.
Frontline Gamer Interview wrote:
Brythons (Gwynedd) - from the north of Wales, the Kingdom of Gwynedd is ruled by Cadwaladr ap Cadwallon, the famous “Red Dragon” who boasted that he would kill every Saxon man, woman and child. Uneasy allies of the Mercians, especially since Cadwallon's death, Cadwaladr must protect his people from the marauding Northumbrians as well as the Fomorians and the Norse and his cousins the Ysians.
Dakka Post wrote:
The Brythons are the Romano-British left in Wales/West Wales after the Romans left. Here be Dragons... and Artos... but not as he is depicted in high fantasy.
Unreleased Concepts: None seen or known as yet
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Albainn (Fortriu)
Frontline Gamer Interview wrote:
Albainn (Fortriu) - these guys are, essentially, the Picts, although they will only be known as such by the Byzantii. The north of what we call Scotland is their home and they revere the Oghu stones that power the earth and the sky, so much so that they carry them to battle. These guys are wild and savage, woad warriors that constantly defend their lands against pretty much everybody else.
Unreleased Concepts: None seen or known as yet
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Érainn (Uí Neíll)
Frontline Gamer Interview wrote:
Érainn (Uí Neíll) - the Irish, at least those Irish that oppose the advance of the Fomorians directly in a bloody conflict that could lead to their extermination or subjugation. Distracted by the sea devils, the Uí Neíll are also under attack from the Norse, the Brythons and the Atalantes, and many amongst them are shunning the cross and returning to the old ways of Eriu, the ways of the Fianna and the Earth Goddess.
Releases: None seen or known as yet
Unreleased Concepts: None seen or known as yet
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Fomorians (Baalor)
Frontline Gamer Interview wrote:
Fomorians (Baalor) - the Fomorians are a declining, decaying race of sea creatures that subjugate humans and beasts alike to keep their flesh alive. Led by Baalor, the Eye in the Ice, from his island fortress at Toraigh in the northwest of Eriu, the Fomorians use fog and ice and snow as harbingers of their advance and delight in turning earth-bound men and beasts against their kin. Their aim is simple: to destroy the world above the water.
Frontline Gamer Interview wrote:
Norse (Scylfings) - you will know them as the Vikings of Scandinavia, and whilst it may seem a stretch to bring their raids forward a hundred and fifty years it actually isn't, for the Vikings did not suddenly explode upon the coast of northwest Europe; they were known of for hundreds of years beforehand. Composed of savage, wild warriors and the Jötnar (the Giants) who find themselves in an uneasy alliance, they are beginning to harass and raid the coasts of northwest Europe in their longships.
Unreleased Concepts: None seen or known as yet
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Ysians (Ker-Ys)
Frontline Gamer Interview wrote:
Ysians (Ker-Ys) - the Ysians are a degenerate, decadent race of Celts occupying what was known by the Romans as Armorica and Dumnonia - Brittany and Cornwall. In our setting, the city of Ker-Ys was built by the Cornish as they fled from the advance of the Saxons, but it has quickly become - under the Queen of Ker-Ys, Euryalia and her Drunes - a despicable place that worships the Horned God Kernunnos and creates all sorts of weird and wonderful creatures to extend their holdings in Frankia and beyond.
Unreleased Concepts: None seen or known as yet
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Vras Not much is known about the Vras other than they are ratmen of some description. Clues point to them being allies (in the loosest sense) of the Ysians
Frontline Gamer Interview wrote:
Byzantii (Legio II Var) - the immortal Emperor Constantine III of Byzantia (the eastern Roman Empire) covets the power and glory of his western ancestors and will stop at nothing to recover the lands and the strength the barbarians took from them. He believes that the Romanii were eclipsed because of their new found faith in the one God, and has allied himself with an even more powerful pantheon opposed to Him. Thus, the legionaries and demi-daemons and auxilia are marching north and west with nothing but conquest on their mind.
Dakka Post wrote:
The Romans will definitely be a part of things, but won't be called Romans. In 550 they re-conquered Italy from their eastern empire and in our setting's time they are hell-bent on recovering their lost empire of the west.
Unreleased Concepts: None seen or known as yet
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Atalantes (Ilioses)
Frontline Gamer Interview wrote:
Atalantes (Ilioses) - The Atalantes reside on Atalantia, a land slowly crumbling into the sea around the northern Bay of Biscay in the Atlantic Ocean. The Atalantes are an ancient race of sea-farers and raiders with a long history of trade and war but they, like their lands, are crumbling and devolving and may soon return to where they originated; those still with their wits about them employ forbidden magic from the stars and unearthly weapons to keep their culture alive, but many believe their race is doomed - at least, upon Gæa.
Dakka Post wrote:
The Khthones and the Atalantians have a symbiotic relationship. They both reside on Atalantia - Atlantis, which is slowly crumbling into the sea around the northern Bay of Biscay, well into the Atlantic. The Atalantians are men; the Khthones were their slaves. The Ilioses are "sun people" - there are other factions within the Atalantians, such as Astéres, Fengáres... if you know your Greek you'll work those two out too. (There's another clue there also). I won't say too much about these two as yet - I've got to leave some stuff nebulous!
Unreleased Concepts: None seen or known as yet
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Khthones (Gorgones)
Frontline Gamer Interview wrote:
Khthones (Gorgones) - The Khthones were once the slaves of the Atalantes (indeed, some still are) and they have taken their opportunity to revolt against their cruel masters in a fight for survival that can only end in destruction. A myriad of anthropomorphs created by the Atalantes from the abundant reptiles of Atalantia, the Khthones include the Gorgonars (man-snakes) led by the Gorgon known as Ophius, the Krokodars (man-crocodiles) and the Sávrars (man-lizards), among others.
And finally, the releases that don't seem to fit into the above list either because I'm unsure of which faction they belong to or Maelstrom have confirmed they won't feature in the game:
Maelstrom has produced some Fantasy resin monsters for a while that fill the need of Warhammer gamers.
Originally under the name "Maelstrom Miniatures", they are now sold as BaneLegions, subdivided into BaneBeasts for monsters and Banelords for heroes (the latter without miniatures so far). The new website http://banelegions.maelstromgames.co.uk/ is now online and they celebrate that fact with a 20% discount on all current products (see this thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/344473.page ). Latest release is the Chimera by Forge World sculptor Daniel Cockersell:
In the dark heart of the forests, in the places the sun rarely sees and the air breathes still, lie the realms of the enta, the lords of the woodlands and the stonegrounds. These giants of bark and leaf care little for the lives of those outside their lands but the desecration of their ancient groves, the discordant music of axe cutting tree and the abhorrent crackle of burning branches causes them to stir and grumble as they have never done before. Oácyning himself, the Lord of the Oak-Enta, has awakened from his slumbers to raise his kin to war, for he has had enough dealings with man and their enemies to know their disregard for the enta and, indeed, any creature or place they do not understand. Thus are Oácyning and his tree-men seen abroad, wrathful and implacable, terrible fiends of wood and stone that can tear down walls and lay waste to cities should they ever wish to, a reminder of the power of the natural world and the beings that are loyal to their origins.
Just wanted to explicitely mention that The Jabberwocor and the Oxgore are discontinued after these sales, as the moulds have seriously worn out and the masters been destroyed.
And the 20% discount for the next 10 days also applies to the preorder for this treeman.
And personally, I would have preferred another head for the treeman, as this one reminds me too much of Spawn or Spiderman's Venom
Like the Treeman job, apart from the head. As for price, a size comparison would be good if there is one. Any idea if it will fit the required WHF base (I know you are just passing the info on Kroot)?
Maelstrom wrote:The BaneLords are soon to join the BaneBeasts within the BaneLegions range. That’s a lot of Bane. A collection of 30mm scale fantasy miniatures designed for wargamers and collectors alike – characters, generals, battle standard-bearers, warlocks, wizards and commanders, whatever takes our fancy really – will take their allotted place alongside the massive monstrosities already available as very cool miniatures that any fantasy conoisseur will want to own, paint up or use on the battlefield.
So when are these superb BaneLords available? Well, in similar fashion to our BaneBeasts releases we will release at least one BaneLord a month, from June onwards, with the first six BaneLords released on May 4th. However, on Saturday the 16th of April these first six will also take pride of place on our stand at Salute, that wonderful event that showcases all that is good and great in our amazing hobby and some more besides. We’ll be there amongst all the luminaries, feeling suitably starstruck, with attendant Maelstrom staff to bring you the latest BaneBeasts and the very first BaneLords, which you’ll be able to get your mitts on a full three weeks before their official release. How cool is that.
(You’ll be able to pre-order them on our website from the 18th of April, to allow us to manage our stock for Salute).
To get everybody excited about Salute this year, at least when it comes to the BaneLegions anyway, we will reveal one of the six BaneLords that will be available at the event every Monday (in no particular order), beginning today and ending on the 4th of April, with possibly something special on the 11th of April, the Monday before the event. This should serve to ramp up the hype until your brain can no longer take it and you spontaneously combust in a Dead Space-like explosion of burnt flesh, hair, eyeballs and teeth. Well, hopefully not, but you may have to have a cup of tea and a sit down…
We honestly believe these miniatures are some of the best out there because the concepts, designs and sculpts have been created by some of the finest craftsmen on the planet, and if those first six don’t take your fancy – well, there’s plenty more to come for a myriad of different races and types. We have our releases lined up well into 2012 and some of those really will take your breath away…
Without further ado and waffle, our first BaneLord can be found in a separate post below!
The very first BaneLord (at least in terms of its reference code, anyway!) is Brunchaath the Vile, a mighty Tain of the Gabrax with a weapon to match his very large muscles, which is not a euphemism. He’ll chop you in half, he will, and then eat you piece by piece. Arse first. That’s the tastiest bit, apparently…
The ice-bound wastes beyond Toraigh where men dare not go and little else survives lie the tribes of the Gabrax, foul beast-things in thrall to Baalor, the Eye in the Ice, the Destroyer of the North, the true power outside the mainlands. Raiders, despoilers, marauders all, the Gabrax are the ruination of the world, parodies of beast and man, an insult to the natural world and a connection to the world beyond the shadows. Their rudimentary tribal society is one of power, greed and blood, where the strongest survive and the weakest simply prey, and it is fitting that those ruling the tribes of the Gabrax, the Tains, are the strongest of them all. Brunchaath the Vile is one such, a hugely muscled hulk of goat and man, a horned devil with white fur and black armour that proudly bears the mark of Baalor. His evil reputation as a killer of killlers, an indiscriminate slaughterer of babe and child, man and woman, ensures that those in his path flee rather than stand against him and be sacrificed upon the tundra in Baalor's name.
Kroothawk wrote:Just wanted to explicitely mention that The Jabberwocor and the Oxgore are discontinued after these sales, as the moulds have seriously worn out and the masters been destroyed.
Why the heck would they destroy the masters? If the product's a hit, wouldn't they want to make more moulds?
The treeman's great, and even with the odd head a lot better than the GW equivalent.
Bananaman from Maelstrom Games wrote:Hi,
The Jabberwocor and Ox Gore were removed as the moulds had started to deteriorate and we decided to withdraw rather than remould.
However, at some point we plan to add other versions of these fine beasties to the range.
Watch out for Angalaak the Ox Gore's big brother coming soon!(...)
There's a sneak peek on our blog www.maelstromgames.co.uk/banelegions - right hand side. Also in the latest Unseen Lerker you can read an article on the range along with a WiP of the next BaneBeast.
Maelstrom wrote:This week we have revealed something special for the BaneLegions in the somewhat more compact shape of our very first BaneLords, but today we have something even specialler (is that a word? it is now) for our monstrous miniatures range, the BaneBeasts; Galagaak, Ox-Gore of the Darkwald!
Galagaak is a reworking of our original concept of a mighty Ox-Gore, brilliantly visualised by Stefan Kopinski (as always). A many-limbed monstrosity that can rend lesser beings limb from limb or, more simply, bludgeon them to death instead, he’s a hugely muscled freight train of fur, tooth and hoof with four nasty weapons to boot. If he asks you the way to Droitwich, be sure to tell him politely!
GALAGAAK, OX-GORE OF THE DARKWALD
Galagaak was born of the deepest places of the mountains, the dark gorges and hollows where the abominations of this world begin their journey to plague the kingdoms of Man. An abhorrent meld of bovine and human, grown to many times their size, the savage Ox-Gore – of which Galagaak is not yet the foulest and most horrific of its kind – are aroused from their vile dens by a hatred of all life that consumes them from birth to bloody death, a hatred that grows with each gorging of flesh and every murderous kill. Angalaak’s path of slaughter and carnage has thus far led it to the hinterlands and the wildernesses where other beasts suffer in its wake, but time alone stands against this savage horror and a trail of devastation that will lead to the very gates of civilisation itself, to a brutal end of its own, no doubt, but one that will hurl the souls of thousands of innocents into the void along with it.
Maybe I'm biased because I was never a fan of the GW monster Galagaak is trying to be, but I'm just not feeling it. There's nothing wrong with it, I'm just a bit let down. I think the thing that bugs me the most is that there's no sense of scale. It could be a towering monstrosity... it could be an ordinary beastman mutant (how absurd is it we live in a world where I can type that?).
Brunchaath the Vile, on the other hand, is a thing of beauty. Not only can I not see anything wrong with it, I can't see anything that isn't an archetype for everything that beastmen should be. I especially like the axe, which manages to look A) threatening, B) improvised, and C) completely appropriately scaled.
The treeman is excellent too. And of course, the Chimera belongs in a museum.
Johira,
Regarding scale, he's rather large - about three times taller than Brunchaath, and a lot bulkier! We do show the actual sizes of the miniature on the promotional graphic.
But you are correct about scale; there's nothing like seeing him against other models! We have been waiting for our man-sized BaneLords to be revealed before we took any scale shots, as we didn't want to offend any other manufacturers, but next week that should be rectified and our resident photographer will shoot them all. Watch this space!
Maelstrom wrote:The second BaneLord unveiled before Salute 2011 (which are being unveiled in no particular order, you understand) is the ancient but still able to stick you good and proper Cynuise of Old, a Barrow Knight Banner Bearer. He’s been visualised by the consistently brilliant Stefan Kopinski and sculpted by Stéphane Simon, who may be a newcomer to the BaneLegions but the wealth of sculpting experience he brings – thanks to his time with Rackham – ensures he will feature for us in the future with yet more BaneLords and BaneBeasts!
CYNUISE OF OLD, BARROW KNIGHT BANNER BEARER
In ages past, in the time when the armies of the stone cities subjugated the land, Cynuise was a warrior of renown, a lord of battle with a thousand enemies dead by his sword and a thousand soldiers behind his thegn’s banner. Kings and Queens were counted among his patrons, nobles and commoners were his friends, and when his life was taken – not in combat, but by a craven’s knife in the dark – his desire for vengeance lived beyond the afterlife. Now he is an accursed warrior of the dead, a knight of the barrows, called upon by those with knowledge of the god-gild to fight once more for his descendants, to bring the wrath of the unliving upon their enemies, for where Cynuise of Old marches so too the soldiers loyal to his banner march, an army of the once-living that seek payment in kind for the death of their revered lord, vengeance upon the scions of his cowardly killer.
Scottywan82 wrote:They look fantastic. I'd love to see a sculptor like THIS team up with one of the companies making plastics.
It already happened, Allan Carrasco teamed up with kraken and Alkemy was born... Unfortunatly like most french companies it never really was well spreaded worldwide and a few years later closed down... although some amazing plastics are still in the market.
Never even HEARD of Alkemy. Can someone hook these dudes up with Mantic? Or AoW? Those are companies I could really see flourishing with a sweet plastic set or two. Companies just really need to open up that market beyond GW and I think they'll see huge returns on investment.
Plastics? One day..... The big beasties with all the detail are very much a resin project, same with the characters. our pieces really are very detailed and resin is the best material for them.
Plastics? One day..... The big beasties with all the detail are very much a resin project, same with the characters. our pieces really are very detailed and resin is the best material for them.
I understand. I meant more from a skill/execution standpoint. You obviously have a gift for the overall aesthetic of tabletop wargaming. It's something that many plastic sets are missing. They tend to look like a beginner's project. I think a sculptor like you could actually come up with intriguing and dynamic plastic sculpts. Seriously, I think you'd make a killing.
I don't sculpt the minis myself, but yes I agree I've no doubt with the sculptors we use and the concepts we have we could produce some excellent plastics, but plastic production is a long, long way down the road for now.
Wow, those do look pretty awesome. Some of those prices make my wallet hurt tho...
Also, does anybody else think that treeman kinda looks like Carnage from the Spider-man comics?
THE ROSE OF KER-YS, WITCHLING
In the darkness that is Ker-Ys there are beings that none would wish to encounter, creatures that crawl and beasts that slither, abhorrent monsters of dark thought and darker intent, but to many the sheer depravity of man is the foullest – or, indeed, most enthralling – aspect of that fell city. The Rose of Ker-Ys is a pure embodiment of that perversion, a seductress with little regard for the wants or lives of others, a witchling whose only purpose is to fulfil her desires whatever form they take and with whatever subject they require – man, woman or beast. Her devotees and supplicants are legion both inside and outside of Ker-Ys and her power grows with every soul that falls under her spell, for each seduction she effects is magik of a kind, a puppeteer’s dance that serves to feed her debased virtue and from which few escape from with a sound mind.
Apologies for the lack of painted pics - But we do have Raffaele Picca (last years German Slayer Sword winner and part of the Massive Voodoo expert painter group) working on her at the mo. So pics will follow.
We currently have the sculptor of brunchaath working on an alternative weapon for the beastie - here's the concept for the new weapon. (I've had my paint brushes out!)
ULRIC THE DEFILER, AUTONOMOR
Ulric the Defiler’s life is consumed by death and the act of delivering it to others, an existence of blood and pain, of little mercy and no remorse. His ax is a metronomic killer of uncommon sharpness, some say magickal, some say a part of Ulric himself, for he wields it as if it were born to him; and still others believe it is the ax that controls Ulric, that it is possessed, for how could a man of letters wield such a weapon so fearsomely, so wickedly? The answer is that Ulric is an autonomor, a warrior of death who – through seduction and sacrifice – has become a devotee of the Rose herself, a man for whom nothing matters but her will, for her next kill, her next bloodbath, a man who has forgotten his previous life and calling for a sliver of her affection. Such is the fate of those that fall for her debased enchantments, regardless of their origins, for whatever they were beforehand the Rose knows they will do her will afterward, no matter the form of that will.
GUILLAUME LE PÈLERIN, VAGRANT KNIGHT None know of Guillaume le Pèlerin’s origins but all realise that to ask the man himself would be a quick way to an early grave, for his wrath is legendary and his sword sharp. All he will ever say is that he is a pilgrim, a wanderer looking for his own kind of peace and to be left to his own path. It is others that name him a vagrant knight, a warrior with no allegiance to any lord or land, a wildsman of Frankia with an obviously martial past, but the Merovingian court know nothing of him and no templar will admit to being his brother-in-arms. So it is that Guillaume will descend upon the beast, the warrior and the demon alike without rhyme or reason, seemingly with no agenda or motive, but to the patricians and kingmakers Guillaume must be more than a wild card, cannot just be a simple chance occurrence that can change destinies, alter carefully-designed artifices with a single swipe of his sword; he must be a driven man, driven by another, one with designs of his own. This is why he is hated and feared, for he cannot be bought and he cannot be swayed, and all who try never return.
Sculpted by one of the best - Remy Tremblay! As always cast in high quality resin Guillame (on foot) is 30mm to the eye. 20mm sq base, mounted is 25mm x 50mm.
These are great. Liking your banelords range a lot more than the banelegions... I only like the chimera and cygor sculpts out of those, whereas all of the banelords have been consistently brilliant so far.
Price reduction has put them squarely back in the "will consider buying" range, too.
The treeman looked good on paper, but the design didn't translate very well into the final sculpt.... the grinning toothy pumpkin head makes it look comical in a nagash-kinda way rather than creepy or mysterious like it should. It goofs-up the entire model, which otherwise, looks great.
Can't think of a single criticism for the banelords line so far, they're all really spot-on.
Anyway, keep up the brilliant work, look forward to seeing more of these!
This is an exciting week for me as I have two babies born unto this world!
One is my own flesh and blood (wife and baby are fine ) the other is this less flesh and blood and more resin but also awesomesauce and something I've yearned to see sculpted in this fashion for some time (what's the point of making toys if you can't make toys you want yourself?).
EURYALIA, QUEEN OF KER-YS
Euryalia has ruled Ker-Ys since that fell city was first built. She has been its Queen since the first stone was laid, the first glyph struck, the first wards spun, and she will be its Queen until the end of the world, for her aspirations to godhood, her desire to become a living, breathing goddess that none can withstand have attained a reality none had countenanced and all now fear. Euryalia’s ascension from human to something much more, a path that began in the shadow of death, became ever more ambitious, ever more purposeful; forbidden lore, proscribed texts were studied, forgotten rituals were conducted with all manner of beast and man, ignoble sacrifices were made in the name of the most loathsome of gods until Ker-Ys itself shook to intolerable birth-howls that lasted for a year and a day and consumed a thousand souls. Now, for her, there are no limits or boundaries, no fates to bow and scrape to, no deities to appease or supplicate, for Euryalia is herself a goddess, of sin and depravity maybe but a goddess nonetheless, a goddess that will enforce the degenerate truths of her city upon the kingdoms of man.
Allan carassco has done a tsunning job. Top guy, top sculptor.
Pics below. Excuse the less than stellar paint jon in the comparison shot, that's mine and I was so keen to paint her I beat Ben Komets to the job. That said, I've seen his WiP and it is currently peeing on mind from a great, great height! If you're at Salute you'll see his paint job in the flesh as we're flying him over to do some show painting on our stand and he'll be bringing the finished paint job with him.
The bull-necked, sour-tempered Erec One-Arm of Càrn Corm was once an engineer of note, a constructor of machinery and apparatus beyond the ken of man and ælf alike. Even among his fellow dwarfs, Erec was unique in his understanding of artifice, the manner in which engines and other such contrivances worked and, indeed, could work, and he guarded his secrets well for amongst the bond-cities and gun-mines there was not one dwarf to match the prowess he displayed in his craft. That changed irrevocably when he lost his left arm and most of his work and equipment to the ever wild Oghurithne. Embittered but determined, Erec re-made himself with steel and wires and ingenuity, vowing vengeance upon the woad-devils of the western reaches, a vengeance that drove him to the host of Càrn Corm for which he bears the standard of Kul-Kunn himself. It is said that he wields it and his ancient, un-named runebound hammer like the dwarf-rírs of old, full of the violence and fury of Branriach itself, the firemountain where the dwarfs themselves were born in ages past.
Sculpted by Mohand. Up for pre-order now. 23mm to the eye high quality resin, 20mm base.
Kaastaruk is marked well in the tales of the Tarvax for he is a skull-bearer, a carrier of his Tain's kill-trophy and always at the forefront of battle, roaring his hatred of the weakling scions of man as he slaughters them with broad strokes of his ax, a violent symbol of the power inherent in the black armour and white eye of Baalor. Like all Tarvax, Kaastaruk is a loathsome joining of bull and man with the worst qualities of both, a foul temperament and even fouler intent, a bellowing murderer with a rage none can match, and his presence amongst the armies of Baalor inspires such beasts to even greater fury, providing a powerful, savage edge in the further subjugation of the lands the Destroyer does not already rule. Kaastaruk and Baalor's other abominations, his other degenerate hybrids that issue from Fomor and beast, his insults to Danu herself, are already all but unstoppable - and his work is not done yet.
In the bleak lands of the Oghurithne where the mountains scrape the sky live many creatures of evil temperament but none evince more terror and revulsion than the savage, bestial Oghurüc, long-legged giants of hoof and horn that legend tells were created to protect the meeting places of the gods, the oghu circles that puncture the landscapes of the bitter north. Kermorannac is one such, an Oghurüc from myth that lives alone amongst the highest peaks and the darkest caverns of Moreb, marking his territory with the bodies of those that wander too close to the ancient monuments in stone within his realm. His purpose is clear even to those who know nothing of these lands, for whilst the gods may have forsaken the oghu circles the Oghurithne and, indeed, the Oghur have not, and they dare not make their pleas to a forgotten pantheon without appeasing their bestial kin beforehand lest they fall prey to the savage retribution that defilers deserve.
Pre-order (released 4th June) http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=pro&pre=mae_blg_bnb_mon_012_000 £49.99 RRP - we discount by 10% on our site for a £44.99 price point!
Also, we have a 16% from RRP voucher run until midnight GMT Monday the 9th of May - enter EASTER-2011 at checkout to recieve your discount and get this guy for £41.99 shipping free worldwide!
Maelstrom Games wrote:This is an exciting week for me as I have two babies born unto this world!
One is my own flesh and blood (wife and baby are fine ) the other is this less flesh and blood and more resin but also awesomesauce and something I've yearned to see sculpted in this fashion for some time (what's the point of making toys if you can't make toys you want yourself?).
EURYALIA, QUEEN OF KER-YS
Euryalia has ruled Ker-Ys since that fell city was first built. She has been its Queen since the first stone was laid, the first glyph struck, the first wards spun, and she will be its Queen until the end of the world, for her aspirations to godhood, her desire to become a living, breathing goddess that none can withstand have attained a reality none had countenanced and all now fear. Euryalia’s ascension from human to something much more, a path that began in the shadow of death, became ever more ambitious, ever more purposeful; forbidden lore, proscribed texts were studied, forgotten rituals were conducted with all manner of beast and man, ignoble sacrifices were made in the name of the most loathsome of gods until Ker-Ys itself shook to intolerable birth-howls that lasted for a year and a day and consumed a thousand souls. Now, for her, there are no limits or boundaries, no fates to bow and scrape to, no deities to appease or supplicate, for Euryalia is herself a goddess, of sin and depravity maybe but a goddess nonetheless, a goddess that will enforce the degenerate truths of her city upon the kingdoms of man.
Allan carassco has done a tsunning job. Top guy, top sculptor.
Pics below. Excuse the less than stellar paint jon in the comparison shot, that's mine and I was so keen to paint her I beat Ben Komets to the job. That said, I've seen his WiP and it is currently peeing on mind from a great, great height! If you're at Salute you'll see his paint job in the flesh as we're flying him over to do some show painting on our stand and he'll be bringing the finished paint job with him.
Out of curiosity, would it be possible to get some shots of these kits unassembled, for those of us who are seeing some serious conversion possibilities here?
agnosto wrote:A little too anatomically correct for my tastes; not sure I would like painting my toy soldier's gibblies.
It actually is a LOT of fun, you should give it a try someday. Getting the blending from dark reddish pink to a more ruddy brown can take a bit of doing, but the exhilaration when it is done is totally worth it.
Wehrkind wrote:It actually is a LOT of fun, you should give it a try someday. Getting the blending from dark reddish pink to a more ruddy brown can take a bit of doing, but the exhilaration when it is done is totally worth it.
And he even wetted his base urgg!
Glad that the treeman was sculpted before this range turned into SexyBeast/SexyLegions.
I would appreciate more decent sculpts that you can actually USE in games without offending people.
Wehrkind wrote:It actually is a LOT of fun, you should give it a try someday. Getting the blending from dark reddish pink to a more ruddy brown can take a bit of doing, but the exhilaration when it is done is totally worth it.
*L* not entirely serious, just pointing out that it isn't really that big of a deal. I actually DO prefer that if something is relevant that it be sculpted on, however. I can always cut the monster's junk off if I want to, and if I do want a really detailed model for some project it is an option. Even if I don't feel like giving it the snip I don't have to labor over making it look perfect
I mean, it isn't like he is jamming a naked wood elf down over his monstrously distended junk. I would never buy a model like that, at least not on a credit card I share with my wife. A little twig and berries here and there isn't anything to get too worked up over when you don't even have to listen to the model scream as you geld it
@ Alpharius: do you have source materials as to what a mutated cyclops's junk should look like?
If so, I would like a link
Edit: by "relevant" I mean as detail on the model, not necessarily to the game.
I like the cyclops concept, but I would have prefered a bit more hair or wrinkely bits on the skin- it's a bit smooth looking right now.
The man-danglies I can live without, too.
Isn't it strange how we all pretty much to a man (and woman sometimes) love a bit of boob on a mini but as soon as we see the old meat and two veg, it all becomes too much!
I don't mind so much - makes for an interesting conversation point when the wife sees me painting miniature testicles.
What is it with the recent fashion for bare backsides and genitals? The GW minotaurs had stupid bare butts too. The whole point of running into battle naked is to show your genitals to the enemy and unsettle them. But with this lit it's most often going to be the owner of the army getting a face full of bits and bobs. It's an interesting concept for collectors and as art pieces I completely agree with them being anatomically correct however I can only think that this will stop some folks buying them which rather knackers the idea of running a company to make money. Sure if the aim is to make arty models for collectors, but if they want to appeal to the mainstream they ought to tone it down, especially for a niche market (less popular) army like Beastmen that isn't going to have a high sales volume anyway. I'd be interested to hear how many of these get impounded by customs.
To be fair... there's zero chance I'd have bought this mini WITHOUT the manbits. I just have no need or use for it (I stopped buying things just because I liked them years ago).
Due to the manbits, however, I wouldn't even take one of these for free.
I'm not happy about the Minotaur manbits, either. Those can be snipped off with about 30 seconds work. The manbits on this thing look to be sculpted into the loun cloth, making it MUCH more work to snip it.
really, what's the big deal? A basically completely naked female figure with pierced nipples with chains running through them - aka: fetish gear - and a ridiculously tiny strip of fabric covering the bare essentials of her vagina [more fetish gear] is okay (I'm assuming it's okay as no-one's said anything about it), but the sight of a penis and scrotum on a male figure is causing all this fuss?
He's a cyclopean ogre-giant-type monster! Just be glad he's got a loincloth, and if the genitals bother you that much either don't buy it, or sculpt a pouch over them. *it's not real*
finnan wrote:really, what's the big deal? A basically completely naked female figure with pierced nipples with chains running through them - aka: fetish gear - and a ridiculously tiny strip of fabric covering the bare essentials of her vagina [more fetish gear] is okay (I'm assuming it's okay as no-one's said anything about it), but the sight of a penis and scrotum on a male figure is causing all this fuss?
He's a cyclopean ogre-giant-type monster! Just be glad he's got a loincloth, and if the genitals bother you that much either don't buy it, or sculpt a pouch over them. *it's not real*
In case you missed this:
MagickalMemories wrote:Not that strange. There's a difference.
I don't mind bare chests on either.
As much as I don't want to see his sausage, I don't want to see her vag.
Eric
As for us stating our opinions about it... any good company wants to hear opinions, good and bad. It's how they gauge whether or not they're giving their customer base what they want.
If the vast majority of commentary they get online says "cover the crotch," then future sculpts will be "sausage" and "taco" free.
Same goes for ANY part of the sculpt.
As for sculpting over it... if someone is paying THOSE prices for a model, they don't likely want to have to do more work on it than the necessary minimum "clean up."
... struggling to come up with an appropriate response here.
... now on my fourth verion.
... fifth.
I can't say what I want to say without sounding like an idiot, when all I'm doing is asking a question why one thing is acceptable and another isn't when one sculpt is more extreme than the other, and without sounding patronising, ranting, trolling or preaching.
MagickalMemories wrote:The manbits on this thing look to be sculpted into the loun cloth, making it MUCH more work to snip it.
Just add a second flappy bit to the backside, I'd say.
MagickalMemories wrote:As for us stating our opinions about it... any good company wants to hear opinions, good and bad. It's how they gauge whether or not they're giving their customer base what they want.
If the vast majority of commentary they get online says "cover the crotch," then future sculpts will be "sausage" and "taco" free.
On the other hand, giving Internet commenters far too much relative importance is very easy. The real yardstick of any product are sales. It doesn't matter if six hundred people in the peanut gallery think it's great if nobody buys it anyway.
I have dealt with Maelstrom for ordering nearly all of my Infinity stuff, and I already like the company and the service they provide.
What I like about this range, is that the quality and level of dedication to detail is unrivaled by almost any other miniatures company out there, I'm truley speechless. This is clearly not just another "band wagon" jumper, trying to muscle in on GW's territory....
As far as the genitals are concerned, I think it's a shame that people (especially those who claim to admire miniature art and sculpting) can not go beyond their puritan society indoctrination. Rather than seeing a fruity beardy guy sculpting a pair of danglies for the hell of it, try seeing a serious sculpting team who have taken the decision to take miniature sculpting to the next level.
To be fair, it's not surprising to see this level of shock at seeing male genitals on a miniature, after all, we're dealing with the GW fan-club, and it's their double standards....sure, it's politically correct to show a vehicle sporting a severed head, hand, arm, leg etc, it's fine to show a pair of bare breasts, but by God, Queen and Country, don't you dare sculpt a pair of balls on my miniature....it's pathetic what people find to be insulted by.
I would buy all of these miniatures, simply just to paint and display, and I can't wait for Maelstrom to make the move to Sci-Fi....if they want to get rich quick, take this level of detail into the Sci-Fi genre, and do it soon!!
I just think it doesn't make much sense...or at least the giant doesn't. If the whole point of showing your genitals is to unsettle the enemy then why is the giant wearing a loincloth that covers just the front so you can't see them?
Delephont wrote:I have dealt with Maelstrom for ordering nearly all of my Infinity stuff, and I already like the company and the service they provide.
What I like about this range, is that the quality and level of dedication to detail is unrivaled by almost any other miniatures company out there, I'm truley speechless. This is clearly not just another "band wagon" jumper, trying to muscle in on GW's territory....
As far as the genitals are concerned, I think it's a shame that people (especially those who claim to admire miniature art and sculpting) can not go beyond their puritan society indoctrination. Rather than seeing a fruity beardy guy sculpting a pair of danglies for the hell of it, try seeing a serious sculpting team who have taken the decision to take miniature sculpting to the next level.
To be fair, it's not surprising to see this level of shock at seeing male genitals on a miniature, after all, we're dealing with the GW fan-club, and it's their double standards....sure, it's politically correct to show a vehicle sporting a severed head, hand, arm, leg etc, it's fine to show a pair of bare breasts, but by God, Queen and Country, don't you dare sculpt a pair of balls on my miniature....it's pathetic what people find to be insulted by.
I would buy all of these miniatures, simply just to paint and display, and I can't wait for Maelstrom to make the move to Sci-Fi....if they want to get rich quick, take this level of detail into the Sci-Fi genre, and do it soon!!
My two cents, not like it matters, I don't collect miniatures for their anatomical correctness.
To me it's not art and even if it were I wouldn't want naked female or male bodies in my hobby room, on my gaming table, etc.
GW pushes the line sometimes with their minatures, especially considering it's targeted at prepubescent boys but outright modelling of genitalia, male or female, is not something I'm comfortable with.
I don't think porn has a place on a gaming table, esepecially considering the number of young participants that frequent FLGSs. If their parents don't mind them owning such models, that's fine; however, I don't believe adult, non-family members should be presenting this material. That's for a family to decide, not some strange neck-beard that happens to get his jollies by looking at the shock on little Timmy's face when he comes to the game table and sees the daemon with her S&M regalia and exposed breasts and the cyclops and minotaur dangling their parts for all to see.
Again, my opinion. What you do in your home is your business, what you bring to a public venue affects everyone.
agnosto wrote:My two cents, not like it matters, I don't collect miniatures for their anatomical correctness.
To me it's not art and even if it were I wouldn't want naked female or male bodies in my hobby room, on my gaming table, etc.
If you don't collect miniatures for their correctness, why collect miniatures at all? I mean, you buy a miniature of a Space Marine, because it represents a Space Marine in 28mm scale, the level of the representation is what makes you buy it over say, using a gaming piece from a Monopoly board game set...right? So when someone buys a minature of a Human male or female, it's safe to assume they're spending the money on that particualr minature because it well repesents their chosen subject.....
agnosto wrote: GW pushes the line sometimes with their minatures, especially considering it's targeted at prepubescent boys but outright modelling of genitalia, male or female, is not something I'm comfortable with.
I don't think porn has a place on a gaming table, esepecially considering the number of young participants that frequent FLGSs. If their parents don't mind them owning such models, that's fine; however, I don't believe adult, non-family members should be presenting this material. That's for a family to decide, not some strange neck-beard that happens to get his jollies by looking at the shock on little Timmy's face when he comes to the game table and sees the daemon with her S&M regalia and exposed breasts and the cyclops and minotaur dangling their parts for all to see.
Again, my opinion. What you do in your home is your business, what you bring to a public venue affects everyone.
Just because GW pushes their line of miniatures at kids doesn't make it the defacto ruling for all companies. I find it disturbing that you feel it's ok for a child to play a game that incites racial hatred, intolerance, and mass murder, and yet balk at the fact that a miniature used in said game should display a level of anatomical correctness that "Timmy" would see on his own body when going to the toilet or taking a shower....way to go to teach your child that the human form is something "negative" or "dirty".....but mass murder and wholesale destruction is no problem
I think your take on "porn" is misguided.....the miniatures here are no more "pornographic" then you taking off your clothes to go take a bath.....unless of course you cover your eyes until you know your "parts" are safely submerged bellow the bubbles far from sight?....the models here are not engaging in sexual acts alone or otherwise (which incidentally would be in keeping with a pornographic feel).....go to any art statue museum in the UK and mainlamd Europe, and you'll see statues ranging back from the Roman times, in full nudity or partially clothed, but all anatomically correct.....try telling the various people who go to see this that it isn't art.
If you don't collect miniatures for their correctness, why collect miniatures at all? I mean, you buy a miniature of a Space Marine, because it represents a Space Marine in 28mm scale, the level of the representation is what makes you buy it over say, using a gaming piece from a Monopoly board game set...right? So when someone buys a minature of a Human male or female, it's safe to assume they're spending the money on that particualr minature because it well repesents their chosen subject.....
Just because GW pushes their line of miniatures at kids doesn't make it the defacto ruling for all companies. I find it disturbing that you feel it's ok for a child to play a game that incites racial hatred, intolerance, and mass murder, and yet balk at the fact that a miniature used in said game should display a level of anatomical correctness that "Timmy" would see on his own body when going to the toilet or taking a shower....way to go to teach your child that the human form is something "negative" or "dirty".....but mass murder and wholesale destruction is no problem
I think your take on "porn" is misguided.....the miniatures here are no more "pornographic" then you taking off your clothes to go take a bath.....unless of course you cover your eyes until you know your "parts" are safely submerged bellow the bubbles far from sight?....the models here are not engaging in sexual acts alone or otherwise (which incidentally would be in keeping with a pornographic feel).....go to any art statue museum in the UK and mainlamd Europe, and you'll see statues ranging back from the Roman times, in full nudity or partially clothed, but all anatomically correct.....try telling the various people who go to see this that it isn't art.
I mentioned twice in my post that it was my opinion; if you don't agree, then fine, your opinion is equally valid in the larger scheme of things as are your values and artistic taste. My point, and you may have missed it since I only said it twice, is that such miniatures have no place on a gaming table, at a FLGS because of the fact that Timmy and Tommy's parents may not want strange adults having naked models around their child regardless of whether or not the neck-beard across the table considers his toy soldier to be "art". Not everyone may share this person's view of what art is and also may not share his view of what is acceptable presentation of said art in a public place at a comic book store.
It's all about venue. FLGS is not a museum of art, nor are these little toy figures the works of past masters nor are they of historical significance. Venue, the creepy, unwashed neck-beard doesn't need to have his naked toys in a public place. I suppose by your argument that sex dolls are ok in a public place as well. I realize that gamers in Europe often have "clubs" where groups of similar people and friends meet and rent or otherwise arrange for space; however, here in the US that's not the case most of the time. Most wargaming here, especially in my area, happens at FLGSs that are often frequented by younger gamers and families that are shopping or otherwise occupying the space.
My use of the word "pornography" may have been hyperbole but it was the closest word I could think of at the time to express my feeling on the matter. And no, the S&M female daemon is not ok in my book either, in fact, it's the lowest example.
You may be a modeller but I'm a gamer, I don't need my toys to be detailed to the microscopic level to paint them and put them on a gaming table in an imaginary universe. I can enjoy playing with my toy soldiers without seeing their dangly parts.
while the models are not pornographc, the female demon is certainly sexualised in that she is mostly naked, and the piercings and accessories are blatant fetish-wear. I'm not against that at all, but it does worry me when there are responses to the models that are decrying the sight of genitalia, but say nothing about the sexualisation and potential objectification depicted in a particular model.
I know this sort of topic can be contentious, but there does seem to be a lot of double-standards flying around. Are they beautifully sculpted models? Certainly. But in the scale of things, seeing un-eroticised male genitalia pales compared to the fetishistic and sexual nature of the female demon.
agnosto wrote:I mentioned twice in my post that it was my opinion; if you don't agree, then fine, your opinion is equally valid in the larger scheme of things as are your values and artistic taste. My point, and you may have missed it since I only said it twice, is that such miniatures have no place on a gaming table, at a FLGS because of the fact that Timmy and Tommy's parents may not want strange adults having naked models around their child regardless of whether or not the neck-beard across the table considers his toy soldier to be "art". Not everyone may share this person's view of what art is and also may not share his view of what is acceptable presentation of said art in a public place at a comic book store.
It's all about venue. FLGS is not a museum of art, nor are these little toy figures the works of past masters nor are they of historical significance. Venue, the creepy, unwashed neck-beard doesn't need to have his naked toys in a public place. I suppose by your argument that sex dolls are ok in a public place as well. I realize that gamers in Europe often have "clubs" where groups of similar people and friends meet and rent or otherwise arrange for space; however, here in the US that's not the case most of the time. Most wargaming here, especially in my area, happens at FLGSs that are often frequented by younger gamers and families that are shopping or otherwise occupying the space.
My use of the word "pornography" may have been hyperbole but it was the closest word I could think of at the time to express my feeling on the matter. And no, the S&M female daemon is not ok in my book either, in fact, it's the lowest example.
You may be a modeller but I'm a gamer, I don't need my toys to be detailed to the microscopic level to paint them and put them on a gaming table in an imaginary universe. I can enjoy playing with my toy soldiers without seeing their dangly parts.
Again, this is my opinion YMMV.
Firstly, I understand that this is your opinion, and I respect this fact. To dictate the tone of my response and my previous responses, I see myself as engaging you in a discussion / debate, not an argument...I realise that alot can be "lost in translation" when you only have the written word to go by whilst communicating a point.
On point. I understand your point about public interest, and what people may or may not consider acceptible for a public gaming table. However, you have focused on only one part of my point, the art point, and that is always going to be an area of debate and tolerance / intolerance. However, you didn't go anywhere near the other side of my agrument....the side of morals and ethics.
On the one side we feel it is acceptible to expose children (I assume you refer to Timmy as a child) to wargames and all of the brutallity they entail, and yet nudity is a step to far. Personally speaking, I would rather my child grow up with a clear understanding and acceptance of the human form then numbed to the horros of war through constant bombardment of acts of attrocity as portrayed in the media, console games and tabletop wargames.
While I understand it is everyones responsibility to raise their children as they see fit, I find it strange and worrying what public opinion deems to be acceptible and / or right and wrong.
I hope there are more reasonable people involved in this hobby, who have the ability to look at their own moral ideals and question whether their reactions to certain things are founded on something plausible or simply an emotive response passed down from puritan do-gooders whose micky mouse view of the world is anything but wholesome.
I personally don't mind naked figures, male, female, human, animal, mythical creature, alien or mutant so long as the flesh is appropriate to the setting or design of the model.
I love the "Artemis" model from Hasslefree and think it would be great to have her and a few of the other full or semi nude female warrior models in my collection (not sure the wife would agree though ). I would also be perfectly happy with a few of the same kind of models (ancient Greek warriors) with full male nudity.
The problem comes in that not many people make them because most gamers and modelers tend to be male and a little squeemish about nekid men.
I don't have an issue with the male gibblies on display in the new models on display here (I was a little shocked when I first saw them I will admit - I was not expecting to see anything like that ) and if I had the spare cash, space and time to paint them up, I would possibly get them just for display. Sadly I lack cash, space and time
Having said that, I would only use nude or nearly nude models on the tabletop in establishments where such things are permitted (ie where kids are not going to be wondering around).
Delephont wrote:I hope there are more reasonable people involved in this hobby, who have the ability to look at their own moral ideals and question whether their reactions to certain things are founded on something plausible or simply an emotive response passed down from puritan do-gooders whose micky mouse view of the world is anything but wholesome.
My objection isn't one of anatomical correctness. I studied at art college and have drawn many nude life models male and female. We had to get everything correct and in proportion from hands and fingers to faces and even their genitals. Yes we had to spend time drawing them properly and not gloss over them. Even with all that experience I dont like them being on models that I buy, especially when they are so 'realistic'. If you read up on horned gods and what they represent you'd realise that the correct way to represent them would be phallus erect as the ancient Egyptians and Greeks did. As I said before, in the context of nakedness in battle they should have full frontal nudity, but they don't. Also from the Warhammer perspective (which these models are aimed at) everything is mutated or over proportioned, to my mind the truly liberal should include the genitalia within that exaggerated visual imagery if they are going to be sculpted.
For myself, when I buy models for gaming they should have qualities that excite me and the cyclops doesn't. The greek myths that the cyclops came from were overtly sexual including instances of homosexual encounters between male gods, especially Pan who was also in some stories supposed to have 'invented' masturbation. My main point in all this is that if there is an argument for art and anatomical correctness then it should be done in context with the mythology that these creatures come from. From the sexual and regenerative context of the horns to the actual genitalia themselves there is a great deal of symbolism in the combining of man and beast in the context of physical and sexual prowess and this portrayal makes the characters seem weak.
A question for tournament goers and organisers though is would you allow these models to be used at your tournament? Would it be covered by an inherent age limit for the event? Would you then ban children attending because of the possibility of these models being on display?
Bloodwin wrote:
My objection isn't one of anatomical correctness. I studied at art college and have drawn many nude life models male and female. We had to get everything correct and in proportion from hands and fingers to faces and even their genitals. Yes we had to spend time drawing them properly and not gloss over them. Even with all that experience I dont like them being on models that I buy, especially when they are so 'realistic'. If you read up on horned gods and what they represent you'd realise that the correct way to represent them would be phallus erect as the ancient Egyptians and Greeks did. As I said before, in the context of nakedness in battle they should have full frontal nudity, but they don't. Also from the Warhammer perspective (which these models are aimed at) everything is mutated or over proportioned, to my mind the truly liberal should include the genitalia within that exaggerated visual imagery if they are going to be sculpted.
For myself, when I buy models for gaming they should have qualities that excite me and the cyclops doesn't. The greek myths that the cyclops came from were overtly sexual including instances of homosexual encounters between male gods, especially Pan who was also in some stories supposed to have 'invented' masturbation. My main point in all this is that if there is an argument for art and anatomical correctness then it should be done in context with the mythology that these creatures come from. From the sexual and regenerative context of the horns to the actual genitalia themselves there is a great deal of symbolism in the combining of man and beast in the context of physical and sexual prowess and this portrayal makes the characters seem weak.
A question for tournament goers and organisers though is would you allow these models to be used at your tournament? Would it be covered by an inherent age limit for the event? Would you then ban children attending because of the possibility of these models being on display?
This discussion is going round in circles, because you're not reading the posts fully. I have already agreed and stated that the argument for or against, based on a foundation of "art" will always fail due to the subjective nature of the standpoint. While I respect your training and therefore greater knowledge in the realm of studied arts, I have to disagree with your insistance that "to create an anatomically correct figure based on these characters, one must adhere to the original ideology that spawned them"....lets remember, these are fantasy figures, and therefore open to interpretation.....the sculptor has artistic license to produce these characters how he/she deems appropriate.
However, it's interesting that you (like agnosto) fail to approach the other aspect of the discussion, should children being playing "wargames" anyway? Setting young Timmy loose into the seedy world of destruction and murder, and then worrying about a few breasts and bums, seems a bit like closing the gate after the horse has bolted.
Stating that you don't like the model is one thing, it's a personal choice how you spend your money after all, but basing your decision not to buy on moral grounds, that are already shakey, seems like a cop out to me, and borderline preaching. After all, who want's to be asscoiated with the corruption of children? who want's to be labled a seedy neck beard one step down from a flasher? which, although the intention might not be there, the statements against these models suggest that of you do like them or are not offended by them, you fall squarely in the camp that has either a low moral standard or a disregard for public interest!
jprp wrote:"Oh, the children, the children!"
Why do people with kids always expect everyones elses world viewpoint to revolve around their decision to breed?
With the internet do you realy think that a flacid bull penis is going to be the thing that traumatises your kid?
In any case do you live in a world where a teen hasnt seen a dog, cat, bull or horse penis out in the real world?
Ok, you get 6 cool points, you said the same thing as me in three sentences
Delephont wrote:
However, it's interesting that you (like agnosto) fail to approach the other aspect of the discussion, should children being playing "wargames" anyway? Setting young Timmy loose into the seedy world of destruction and murder, and then worrying about a few breasts and bums, seems a bit like closing the gate after the horse has bolted.
I havent said that I wouldn't buy them on moral grounds, I was asking the question of wether they might be banned by others on those grounds. It's an interesting question about war in light of recent world events. The US government has said that they wont publish pictures of Osama Bin Laden after he was killed on grounds of decency. As for children being exposed to war and violence, most myths and legends especially the original versions of the tales by the Brothers Grimm are full of violence. The predominant religion in the UK (not mine) is Christianity which has imagery of the suffering of Jesus on the cross. Here in London one of our principal tourist attractions, The Tower of London is one of the most violent and vicious places on the planet, full of death and torture and full of school kids. European history is full of it not to mention the many martyred saints. Every November people in the UK celebrate Guy Fawkes night remembering a man who tried to blow up parliament and even in my youth I remember people making 'Guys' for the bonfire. The national flag of scotland is the Cross of St Andrew which is in the shape of the cross he was crucified on upside down. In modern movies we have Star Wars movies with it's scenes of dismemberment and torture, and the original Indiana Jones Trilogy that always had a gruesome death at the end.
The question isn't wether we would censor this imagery on our tables but wether society would. So no I am not hiding behind morals in my dislike for the miniature. I am saying that it doesn't excite me or hold to the values that I feel it should, that of overt sexuality. My problem is not that it shows genitalia but that it isn't explicit enough and is in my mind a cop out. I also think that there is an attempt to shock with these figures to get them noticed but that is my personal speculation. I should also add in fairness that some of the beasts recently produced by Warhammer Forge also have full genitalia modeled (the Reaper demigriffon).
I should also add that I have had my own art that I did for a publisher friend of min turned down because it was too suggestive and that the US market would not look kindly on it so I am not shy about these things.
jprp wrote:"Oh, the children, the children!"
Why do people with kids always expect everyones elses world viewpoint to revolve around their decision to breed?
With the internet do you realy think that a flacid bull penis is going to be the thing that traumatises your kid?
In any case do you live in a world where a teen hasnt seen a dog, cat, bull or horse penis out in the real world?
Call me old fashioned, but I don't want to play against a 12 year old with a penis themed army.
Sidstyler wrote:I just think it doesn't make much sense...or at least the giant doesn't. If the whole point of showing your genitals is to unsettle the enemy then why is the giant wearing a loincloth that covers just the front so you can't see them?
That's only one possible cultural interpretation of nakedness. A lot of cultures had no significant nudity taboos whatever, with men walking around with their meat and two veg on display quite openly, without any sort of emotive context. Furthermore, these are all beastmen, the one fantasy culture you'd expect to behave like wild animals. There's no pornography portrayed here, there's no sexuality, just plain anatomy. Considering the bestial associations between goats and lust, from horny devils to bow-legged satyrs, they could have gone a whole lot further with this.
jprp wrote:"Oh, the children, the children!"
Why do people with kids always expect everyones elses world viewpoint to revolve around their decision to breed?
With the internet do you realy think that a flacid bull penis is going to be the thing that traumatises your kid?
In any case do you live in a world where a teen hasnt seen a dog, cat, bull or horse penis out in the real world?
Call me old fashioned, but I don't want to play against a 12 year old with a penis themed army.
Kroothawk wrote:Call me old fashioned, but I don't want to play against a 12 year old with a penis themed army.
Tough. I don't see why the miniatures companies should all have to cater to the same standards as GW just so some people are not inconvenienced by immature idiots engaging in stupid wankery (such as building penis-themed armies).
... struggling to come up with an appropriate response here.
... now on my fourth verion.
... fifth.
I can't say what I want to say without sounding like an idiot, when all I'm doing is asking a question why one thing is acceptable and another isn't when one sculpt is more extreme than the other, and without sounding patronising, ranting, trolling or preaching.
Sorry. Wasn't being an @ss.
Genuinely thought you missed it.
Point was that I don't want genitals on my minis... and many agree.
Eric
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit...
Having caught up & seen where this thing's going, I'm out.
Those disagreeing with the "anti-penis" crowd will not be swayed and, on occasion, misrepresent our reasons.
Those who are (actually) "anti-genitals" are just saying the same things over & over.
We're not going to convince each other. We should all just zip it, so as to not to derail this epic thread any further.
jprp wrote:"Oh, the children, the children!"
Why do people with kids always expect everyones elses world viewpoint to revolve around their decision to breed?
With the internet do you realy think that a flacid bull penis is going to be the thing that traumatises your kid?
In any case do you live in a world where a teen hasnt seen a dog, cat, bull or horse penis out in the real world?
I'll just answer both you and Delephont here.
As to the appropriate nature of these models. Parents should have the right to introduce their child and or edit what their child is exposed to not some stranger that happens to walk into a game store and gleefully show everyone the extra bits on their model. I'm not saying everyone is so childish as to do so but we are involved in a game where there are people that make "pew pew" sounds when rolling dice (you all have met this person, I'm sure). If someone's maturity level is that low, nothing will stop someone from running around a game store showing everyone that his minotaur's scrotum hangs down to its knees or that his daemonette is the S&M queen of the universe. I reserve the same disgust for this type of person as I do for the sad individuals that are constantly drooling to have femal space marines with giant breasts. Both are represehensible for different reasons.
I don't believe I even mentioned someone being "traumatised"; however, I also do not believe that the first place a child sees an S&M doll is on the game table at a FLGS. It's not a huge problem and I am sincerely sorry if you have taken my objections to mean that but we should all be considerate of each other and if I or others prefer not to see such things in a public venue, I hardly see why anyone would be so assinine as to willfully disregard others' opinions on the matter. I'm a firm believer that what people do in the privacy of their own homes is their business but they should also keep objectionable material to themselves. Let the prevailing mores of your locale be your guide and in my area, these models would not be acceptable. Oklahoma is the buckle of the bible-belt after all, YMMV; if nudity is ok in your neck of the woods, streak through the neighborhood for all I care.
As to violence in wargamming. So much with children is in explaining things to them and educating them. Especially historical wargamming is an excellent teaching tool for ancient/modern history. It allows a responsible adult to put things in perspective and in such a way as to create a deeper understanding of the events surrounding certain battles. Any psychological impact from simulated violence (and wargamming is much less harmful that watching an episode of the Simpsons IMHO) may be mediated by having a simple discussion with the child as to that it is just a game and that such activities in real life are not acceptable. Ultimately, a good parent will censor what their child has access to and will know what their child is capable of handling; however, some stranger off the street doesn't necessarily know these things for every child (as they're all different).
I'm not trying to be an ass or argumentative, I was simply providing my perspective on something that was being discussed and I freely admit that I may not be always the best at expressing myself (who is?). All of this said, I think we all understand each other so I'll just be quiet and let you folks talk about the models.
agnosto wrote: As to violence in wargamming. So much with children is in explaining things to them and educating them. Especially historical wargamming is an excellent teaching tool for ancient/modern history. It allows a responsible adult to put things in perspective and in such a way as to create a deeper understanding of the events surrounding certain battles. Any psychological impact from simulated violence (and wargamming is much less harmful that watching an episode of the Simpsons IMHO) may be mediated by having a simple discussion with the child as to that it is just a game and that such activities in real life are not acceptable. Ultimately, a good parent will censor what their child has access to and will know what their child is capable of handling; however, some stranger off the street doesn't necessarily know these things for every child (as they're all different).
Ok, I'll bite
Fair points, but couldn't the same rationale be used to explain why the minotaur has exactly dangling between his legs what Timmy has as well.....wouldn't it be a simple case of, it's a male minotaur just like you are a male human? Surely it is a lot easier to explain the anatomy of a "thing" as opposed to explaining why it's "wrong" to kill, yet "right" to derive enjoyment from simulating killing?
I'll leave the debate there. I realise you have deep opinions on this, and I'm not trying to convince you to expose your children (assuming you have children) to things you think they ought not to see. Even you have to see the double standards in all of this however, and alll of the arguments you (and others) have put forward do nothing to relieve the ache of that hypocrisy.
Ultimately, Maelstrom probably cares little about either of our opinions on this, as the bottom line for them is sales. Personally I hope the range does well. I can imagine that the range might suffer from limited sales in places like the US for the reasons stated, I only hope this doesn't influence them to stop producing these wonderful pieces or change their design direction.
jprp wrote:"Oh, the children, the children!"
Why do people with kids always expect everyones elses world viewpoint to revolve around their decision to breed?
With the internet do you realy think that a flacid bull penis is going to be the thing that traumatises your kid?
In any case do you live in a world where a teen hasnt seen a dog, cat, bull or horse penis out in the real world?
I'll just answer both you and Delephont here.
As to the appropriate nature of these models. Parents should have the right to introduce their child and or edit what their child is exposed to not some stranger that happens to walk into a game store and gleefully show everyone the extra bits on their model. I'm not saying everyone is so childish as to do so but we are involved in a game where there are people that make "pew pew" sounds when rolling dice (you all have met this person, I'm sure). If someone's maturity level is that low, nothing will stop someone from running around a game store showing everyone that his minotaur's scrotum hangs down to its knees or that his daemonette is the S&M queen of the universe. I reserve the same disgust for this type of person as I do for the sad individuals that are constantly drooling to have femal space marines with giant breasts. Both are represehensible for different reasons.
I don't believe I even mentioned someone being "traumatised"; however, I also do not believe that the first place a child sees an S&M doll is on the game table at a FLGS. It's not a huge problem and I am sincerely sorry if you have taken my objections to mean that but we should all be considerate of each other and if I or others prefer not to see such things in a public venue, I hardly see why anyone would be so assinine as to willfully disregard others' opinions on the matter. I'm a firm believer that what people do in the privacy of their own homes is their business but they should also keep objectionable material to themselves. Let the prevailing mores of your locale be your guide and in my area, these models would not be acceptable. Oklahoma is the buckle of the bible-belt after all, YMMV; if nudity is ok in your neck of the woods, streak through the neighborhood for all I care.
As to violence in wargamming. So much with children is in explaining things to them and educating them. Especially historical wargamming is an excellent teaching tool for ancient/modern history. It allows a responsible adult to put things in perspective and in such a way as to create a deeper understanding of the events surrounding certain battles. Any psychological impact from simulated violence (and wargamming is much less harmful that watching an episode of the Simpsons IMHO) may be mediated by having a simple discussion with the child as to that it is just a game and that such activities in real life are not acceptable. Ultimately, a good parent will censor what their child has access to and will know what their child is capable of handling; however, some stranger off the street doesn't necessarily know these things for every child (as they're all different).
I'm not trying to be an ass or argumentative, I was simply providing my perspective on something that was being discussed and I freely admit that I may not be always the best at expressing myself (who is?). All of this said, I think we all understand each other so I'll just be quiet and let you folks talk about the models.
All that you say in this Quote is very reasonable, however from what you say you DO actually seem to live In "A different world" to me, i dont have kids (hoooray!) but here in the ukGW products are supposed to be aimed at 14+ year olds, over here any teen boy is generally spending more time in a day using/abusing his genitals than painting or gaming and despite the law most girls have had male genitalia in their mouths at the very least (we are always in the top two for teen pregnancies in Europe), this combined with high rates of STDs, alchohol, solvent and drug abuse in that age group has lead me to my belief that little metal or resin weiners arent even going to register. If you live in an enviroment that still allows kids to be children then good luck to you that died here over 20 years ago.
Delephont wrote:Ultimately, Maelstrom probably cares little about either of our opinions on this, as the bottom line for them is sales. Personally I hope the range does well. I can imagine that the range might suffer from limited sales in places like the US for the reasons stated, I only hope this doesn't influence them to stop producing these wonderful pieces or change their design direction.
Delephont, and indeed to all of you,
Thanks for participating in this. It is certainly a thought-provoking debate and I can see the arguments on both sides. Please don't ever think that we don't care about people's opinions on this or any other matter regarding our miniatures; we do, which is why (for example) Brunchaath the Vile has a better weapon now.
Therein lies the answer to the question you pose in your last sentence. We will change a miniature based on customer opinion if we think it will improve it. We won't change it if we think it will not. Removing Kermorannac's genitalia (or any of our miniatures' genitalia), in our opinion, will not improve him as a miniature because we feel he would not be complete without them, regardless of whether we make cold, calculated decisions about sales. We always care about opinions of our miniatures, but it is our right to heed those opinions, just as it is your right to buy our miniatures or not to buy them - in the latter case, whether you simply don't like them or don't like their genitalia.
(July's miniatures won't have any genitalia on show, in case that helps anyone, although it's not like we planned that.)
We do not wish to offend anybody with our miniatures or our anatomical correctness. We wish to make awesome miniatures that people will like to buy and paint up either for their cabinet or their armies. Nothing more, nothing less!
Expect to see more genitalia on our miniatures where it is appropriate. Expect not to see them where it is not appropriate!
Delephont wrote:I have dealt with Maelstrom for ordering nearly all of my Infinity stuff, and I already like the company and the service they provide.
What I like about this range, is that the quality and level of dedication to detail is unrivaled by almost any other miniatures company out there, I'm truley speechless. This is clearly not just another "band wagon" jumper, trying to muscle in on GW's territory....
As far as the genitals are concerned, I think it's a shame that people (especially those who claim to admire miniature art and sculpting) can not go beyond their puritan society indoctrination. Rather than seeing a fruity beardy guy sculpting a pair of danglies for the hell of it, try seeing a serious sculpting team who have taken the decision to take miniature sculpting to the next level.
To be fair, it's not surprising to see this level of shock at seeing male genitals on a miniature, after all, we're dealing with the GW fan-club, and it's their double standards....sure, it's politically correct to show a vehicle sporting a severed head, hand, arm, leg etc, it's fine to show a pair of bare breasts, but by God, Queen and Country, don't you dare sculpt a pair of balls on my miniature....it's pathetic what people find to be insulted by.
I would buy all of these miniatures, simply just to paint and display, and I can't wait for Maelstrom to make the move to Sci-Fi....if they want to get rich quick, take this level of detail into the Sci-Fi genre, and do it soon!!
I'm not offended by nudity.
I'm puzzled by it. Why the hell would you not want some armor(or at least pants!) around your dangly bits or your breasts when going into battle? That's just asking for trouble
I'm puzzled by it. Why the hell would you not want some armor(or at least pants!) around your dangly bits or your breasts when going into battle? That's just asking for trouble
Kanluwen, maybe the big hairy goat decided to leave his testes out so that when in battle while his opponents are staring at his enormous goolies, totally in awe or wondering how they will scar their children he is busy smashing their head in
I love the minotaur. Wish GW minotaurs could even look a tenth as good. Pity there isn't a unit of them. I had my heart set on making female minotaurs using old Confrontation Wolfen, but those have become so scarce I'd almost consider going with these guys if there were enough models and the price was right.
I think the not-Cygor is an excellent interpretation on the concept. Too bad I already started on my own, with my concept going in a little different direction.
With regards to nekkid bits: Kudos! I can think of no army where this is more appropriate. Thank goodness there are some miniature producers out there who do not treat their customers like fragile pre-teens. If you don't like 'em, just don't buy 'em!
JOHIRA wrote:With regards to nekkid bits: Kudos! I can think of no army where this is more appropriate. Thank goodness there are some miniature producers out there who do not treat their customers like fragile pre-teens. If you don't like 'em, just don't buy 'em!
I find this a frankly amazing statement, as a good proportion of the people that play GW games at my local venue are, in point of fact, pre-teens.
Anyone who would think of bringing such miniatures to a public venue, I can only urge that you exercise the greatest of caution. Is it possible that the local authorities will regard such a model in such a context as obscene? Possibly. Not definitely, not perhaps even likely. Just possibly.
The problem isn't that they are very realistically proportioned fine quality miniatures for table games. The problem is that they are equally well described (say, by a local county prosecutor) as "an action figure with exposed, detailed, male genitalia." Let's also remember that if you're at a public venue, what is and is not permissible is ultimately not up to the least easily offended, but the most.
I thought he was circumcised at first because there's no foreskin, then I thought that maybe it's been pushed back. One look at his right hand confirmed that even forest lords get bored, have a nice day.
There's a huge difference between an 8x10 picture of an actual naked man and a tiny tiny anatomically correct area on a miniature. A miniature of an animal no less. One that you really would have to bend over the table to see also.
Cadbren, looks like the antlers misrepresent his "horn".
SlaveToDorkness wrote:There's a huge difference between an 8x10 picture of an actual naked man and a tiny tiny anatomically correct area on a miniature. A miniature of an animal no less. One that you really would have to bend over the table to see also.
So, let me ask you, what exactly is your argument here: that parents and/or local law enforcement personnel are never... overly zealous? That these personal are either so well versed in this hobby, or else so understanding, that they will... disregard a complaint from a parent that there is a strange guy hanging around the children with anatomically correct dolls?
I'm not saying that owning one of these is a fast track to the sex-offender registry; I am saying that if your venue has a lot of kids, think long and hard about bringing anything to the venue that the phrase "anatomically correct, exposed male genitalia" can apply to.
At my venue, we get a lot of kids; to the extent that the owner aggressively tries to get people to be aware of and curb swearing. I don't for a moment think he would welcome something like these to his establishment, and I wouldn't for a moment blame him.
I will add this, there are armies within the historic gaming community that feature naked men, specifically Celtic warriors. It is an historic qwerk that some Celts went into battle naked and so they are represented in miniature form for historic battles. Much of ancient art features the heroic nude and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a museum or art gallery that didn't have a nude painting or sculpture in it somewhere.
There is I believe a major distinction between viewing such things and walking the streets nude and I don't see the two related whatsoever. I think it far more damaging to portray nearly every fantasy, sci fi female as semi-clothed for the benefit of "sales" to the point where conversions for these characters usually have an exposed midriff at the very least.
JOHIRA wrote:With regards to nekkid bits: Kudos! I can think of no army where this is more appropriate. Thank goodness there are some miniature producers out there who do not treat their customers like fragile pre-teens. If you don't like 'em, just don't buy 'em!
I find this a frankly amazing statement, as a good proportion of the people that play GW games at my local venue are, in point of fact, pre-teens.
So?
There is more to the world of miniatures than the people that play GW games at your local venue.
I'm a firm believer that while children should not be unnecessarily exposed to material inappropriate for their age, not all material that is inappropriate for children should be branded as bad or inappropriate just because some purchaser discretion is advised. Adults should be allowed to to be aware of the mature world, and I applaud a miniature company that permits that. I can totally understand if someone doesn't want anatomically correct minitures, and consumers have every right to voice their preference. But to try and portray these miniatures as somehow inherently bad just because they are anatomically correct, rather than just not conforming to an individual's taste strikes me as very childish. Especially when the anatomical correctness is generally speaking nothing you wouldn't see on a trip to the farm.
Kanluwen wrote:I'm puzzled by it. Why the hell would you not want some armor(or at least pants!) around your dangly bits or your breasts when going into battle? That's just asking for trouble
I'm repeating myself here, but here goes: they're beastmen. They're six-foot mangoats with no fear of pain, and certainly there are no tailors in the stinking huts and caves where they make their home. Clothes for them are mostly superfluous, just like they would be on a bull at pasture.
Kroothawk wrote:Yes, beastmen are always horny and like to rape women, but do I want a miniature to represent this background on the tabletop? No.
I can understand this, after all, following most wars, city's were sacked, babies and people of advanced years would have been put to the sword, rape (of men and women) would have been common place, not to mention the taking of slaves....
While this all may be historically correct, the aim of a wargame is to capture that moment in time where the battle hangs in the balance.....it could be argued, that what happens after the battle has concluded is best left to history and the "imagination"...
I have to say I really like the Knight great lines oozes character. The Beastmen are interesting although I think the Chimera is still the pick of the crop....
Pretty amazing that this thread's been all but totally hijacked over concerns that Maelstorm's figures are "obscene", "porn", or whatever rather than focusing on how good Maelstorm's stuff is...
Male genitalia are nothing new to fantasy figures. I remember old Ral Partha Goblin models from the late '80's with fully sculpted genitalia. Somehow Western Civilization survived...
If you don't like the figures, find them offensive, or simply can't deal with a bit of male nudity, don't buy them! There's room in the gaming world for companies that go PG-13 (for graphic violence) up to R (for male nudity). Heck, there's probably room for a few X companies as well. Would those all be figures you'd use at your FLGS? Perhaps not, but that's not the only place to game, now is it?
Personally, I think Maelstorm does some amazing stuff and, eventually, will be picking some up.
cygnnus wrote:Pretty amazing that this thread's been all but totally hijacked over concerns that Maelstorm's figures are "obscene", "porn", or whatever rather than focusing on how good Maelstorm's stuff is...
Male genitalia are nothing new to fantasy figures. I remember old Ral Partha Goblin models from the late '80's with fully sculpted genitalia. Somehow Western Civilization survived...
If you don't like the figures, find them offensive, or simply can't deal with a bit of male nudity, don't buy them! There's room in the gaming world for companies that go PG-13 (for graphic violence) up to R (for male nudity). Heck, there's probably room for a few X companies as well. Would those all be figures you'd use at your FLGS? Perhaps not, but that's not the only place to game, now is it?
Personally, I think Maelstorm does some amazing stuff and, eventually, will be picking some up.
Valete,
JohnS
I find it amazing that graphic violence receives a much lesser censorship rating than full-frontal nudity...
Guys I think this thread has got a bit derailed could we take the ethics/sexual insecurity/won't somebody think of the children debate to a different thread so some of us can see the news and rumours please?
Personally I have no problem with them, I think they capture the spirit of beastmen and slaanesh quite well, and seeing as how apparently GW are banning non Citadel miniatures in stores (or so I've heard) its not really an issue for the kiddies on saturday.
The thread has not been derailed. Maelstrom has shown their new range of miniatures and people are discussing said miniatures.
Until Maelstrom releases more news on their range, the thread is effectively frozen anyway. While I agree, the discussion has become somewhat circular in it's nature, the miniatures have obviously struck a chord (positively or negatively) and people should be allowed to discuss those points in an open forum.
I also think that this was justified feedback for Maelstrom's miniatures, esp. as Maelstrom actually reads and sometimes reacts to feedback and some posters are potential customers (I already own one Maelstrom monster, will buy more, but not any models I find offensive).
Kudos to you guys for addressing the issue at hand (no pun intended). Some might've just plugged on, not wanting to risk stoking the fires even further, and pretended the debate was not raging around them.
I admit my disappointment in hearing about the inclusion of yet more genitalia in future miniatures, but I respect that as your right.
Llamahead wrote:I have to say I really like the Knight great lines oozes character. The Beastmen are interesting although I think the Chimera is still the pick of the crop....
Agreed.
I've got to say, though... As nice work as Maelstrom is doing, they'll be hard pressed to top that Chimera!
There seems to be a constant reference to playing in GW stores, now when lead was in the minis all gw products had a warning that they were not for under 14s, i know that this is not the case today and younger kids parents use the stores as a day-care centre but as a man of 40 years (who has been in the hobby since i was 13) i have never had a game in a gw store and would only consider attending on a veterans evening.
I find it a bit odd that adults (other than staff or parents teaching their kids to play) would want to spend hours with young kids-is this not more of a worry than the minis.
jprp wrote:I find it a bit odd that adults (other than staff or parents teaching their kids to play) would want to spend hours with young kids-is this not more of a worry than the minis.
No. Adults spending time with children is not "worrying".
I think the guys are refering to the fact that children may see the miniatures by virtue of them being in the same place (as the adults) not that the adults are particulary seeking to engage said children in a game.
At least that was my understanding of the situation.
Nice paintjob on a very nice sculpt, I'm very impressed with this line... going stronger and stronger.
As for the genitalia debate I intended to reply...but Maelstrom in one sentence summed up what I would probably write in one huge post
Expect to see more genitalia on our miniatures where it is appropriate. Expect not to see them where it is not appropriate!
And this makes all the diference in the world to me... I'm not a fan of nudity for the sake of nudity, in fact I do hate things like the wet nurse or raped themes etc... those are not apropriate in my table, those are provocative, offensive, porno etc you name it... but a penis on a minotaur or celt warrior is just that, with no strange message or sexual fixation.
For example artemis that was referenced... she is naked and almost crossed the line but she has a classical greek goddess thing going on so the context saves her from the tastefulll nudity.
Like everything lots of us have a diferent opinion and that is just mine... Some lines are not to be crossed but as long as things are clear people can choose what to use on their tables.
In Maelstrom case and looking at quoted sentence all is very clear and I dont expect to see sexual messages on their minis in order to sell more. Thats good enough for me.
Just sculpte a loin cloth zt the back of his waist or some hip armor and its done!
Dang people can argue about unneccesary things sometimes...
GW had released Nipples in the free air Deamonettes in the past, and nobody got killed...
And i would say that the reaction of most of the parents where i life about a tiny wienner on a mini would be" ho thats funny!" or just a little laugh...
Maybe parents are different in Belgium then ielse where i dunno...
We release one BaneLord (a character mini) and one BaneBeast (big gribbly beatsie!) per month.
Coming up is a High Elf standard bearer (sculpted by Thomas David) for BaneLords and a Tarask (sculpted by Stephan Nguyen) for BaneBeasts previews of these guys will go online 1st week of June. We just got the first casts back and they are great!
Also in the pipeline are BaneLords sculpts from JAG, Steve Buddle and a new Allan C sculpt.
We have quite a few in the pipeline at the mo so over the summer we may well release 2 BaneLords per month!
I can confirm that the High Elf won't be naked, he will be nicely armoured. However, the next BaneBeast will be naked... although its genitalia won't be on show as it's not appropriate ;(
Cheers
Rob
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kroothawk wrote:
Scottywan82 wrote:Cannot wait for the High Elf!
Hope he wears ... erm ... decent cloths
Fully clothed - cloak, armour - the lot!
As said, we have nudity where it's appropiate - huge savage monsters aren't too interested in modesty. Look at the Celts that went to battle naked - a lot of inspiration there.
Our range isn't aimed at children. It's an adult wargamers/collectors range.
Congrats to Rob and the team on this one plus of having some "balls" and saying "well if you don't like it then don't buy it"
As for the giant - well if he is going towards the army, you as the player is the one that has to see the "meat and veg" not the other person. Plus I've seen worse models on Cool mini or not so this is pretty tame for me, but hey each to their own.
So guess asking for a full burka clad army is out of the question? That shouldn't offend anyone (well except if you take it to a french tournament)
Here's a scenic shot as well. This is the colour box sleeve at the printers now.
No plans for Burkha clad types - that would be silly! We're entirely serious stuck up types here!
We do however have a chap on the way wearing lots of armour who will zzap your pants off with his awesome spells (and high level of sculpt) coming soon - there's a reason JAG is rated so highly...........stay tuned!
We release one BaneLord (a character mini) and one BaneBeast (big gribbly beatsie!) per month.
Coming up is a High Elf standard bearer (sculpted by Thomas David) for BaneLords and a Tarask (sculpted by Stephan Nguyen) for BaneBeasts previews of these guys will go online 1st week of June. We just got the first casts back and they are great!
Also in the pipeline are BaneLords sculpts from JAG, Steve Buddle and a new Allan C sculpt.
We have quite a few in the pipeline at the mo so over the summer we may well release 2 BaneLords per month!
We release one BaneLord (a character mini) and one BaneBeast (big gribbly beatsie!) per month.
Coming up is a High Elf standard bearer (sculpted by Thomas David) for BaneLords and a Tarask (sculpted by Stephan Nguyen) for BaneBeasts previews of these guys will go online 1st week of June. We just got the first casts back and they are great!
Also in the pipeline are BaneLords sculpts from JAG, Steve Buddle and a new Allan C sculpt.
We have quite a few in the pipeline at the mo so over the summer we may well release 2 BaneLords per month!
Tarask?
As in, Tarrasque?
As in...
this guy?
Or something like him?
Please let it be so!
Something big and spiky is coming your way in July! Won't look like that pic though - our own concept. But yes, big, spiky and full of attitude. Will be on a 60 x100mm base.
No plans for plastics - we're happy with making cool figs in a smaller, bespoke range and sticking to resin.
The_Minsk wrote:So anyplans to do a big nasty troll?
You must be psychic! Plans are actually completed, the first cast is sat here at Maelstrom HQ but we need to show you the High Elf standard bearer and the Tarask first! So many BaneLegions goodies to come over the next few months..........
The_Minsk wrote:So anyplans to do a big nasty troll?
Maelstrom Games wrote:You must be psychic!
No, he is just working through a list of monsters with big naughty things, his next guess would be evil centaurs BTW Troll Forged made a whole nekkid family of ugly trolls.
The_Minsk wrote:So anyplans to do a big nasty troll?
Maelstrom Games wrote:You must be psychic!
No, he is just working through a list of monsters with big naughty things, his next guess would be evil centaurs BTW Troll Forged made a whole nekkid family of ugly trolls.
Minis are getting better and better and so is the painting and product presentation... nothing beats a good miniature well painted on a well modelled background. Good job.
I need to take the time to look at the FW site to find out the size of the Gargantuan Squiggoth. If this is close enough, I can get double-use out of him (D&D and 40K). The damn thing's so good looking that my 40K group would surely forgive the lack of a howdah! LOL
Worst case scenario, I guess I'll have to just use him as a (really) big Squiggoth.
The minute you posted it Luna---I can't unsee it now. Hah.
Another great release Maelstrom, you continue to impress----even though I don't play Fantasy I'm considering buying one just to paint it! Keep up the great work.
FYI send kudos to your presentation guy. Nicely painted miniature, nicely photographed with good background---overall just a great impression of professionalism.
That Terrask is beautiful. I'm loving the anatomy/positioning/musculature of the legs. It's almost a textbook demonstration of how to convey motion/energy in a model without needing it to be flailing all over the place.
jprp wrote:No, if that was it they could just charge less.
The bigger the model, the more it costs to make, thus the more they will charge.
By making a smaller model, they cut down production costs and allow for a larger majority of people to be capable of purchasing it; thus making them more of a profit.
P.S.
Not to mention this is:
A) Their rendition and they have full artistic license to make it look how they please. B) Not necessarily a D&D Tarrasque; it's based off it but they haven't given any inclination that it has anything to do with the D&D Tarrasque other than a similar name and look. C) More ready to incorporate into WFB games because it seems to fit on one of the big chariot bases.
jprp wrote:No, if that was it they could just charge less.
The bigger the model, the more it costs to make, thus the more they will charge.
By making a smaller model, they cut down production costs and allow for a larger majority of people to be capable of purchasing it; thus making them more of a profit.
P.S.
Not to mention this is:
A) Their rendition and they have full artistic license to make it look how they please.
B) Not necessarily a D&D Tarrasque; it's based off it but they haven't given any inclination that it has anything to do with the D&D Tarrasque other than a similar name and look.
C) More ready to incorporate into WFB games because it seems to fit on one of the big chariot bases.
Pretty much. This is our Tarask, It's how we want it to look, and is the size we want and need it to be. A foot long Tarrasque would cost way over a £100 probably closer to £200. Our Tarask retails at £49.99 and we sell it at a 10% discount and free shipping = £44.99 a much easier to swallow price point. Not to mention issues with box sizes, larger moulds, sculpting costs, actually finding a sculptor with the will and time to sculpt a beast that large with the time free in their busy timetables etc.
Anyways, simple answer is - it's this big (and it's still big!) because that's how we big we wanted to make it. It isn't a D&D Tarrasque - it's a BaneLegions Tarask. :8
Also, for a rider or chariot type conversion, the armoured back carapace is one seperate piece that is removable and is fully detailed underneath like the rest of the warty reptilian skin. So fitting a rider(s)/howdah is entirely possible. Should you wish.
Darth Bob wrote:A) Their rendition and they have full artistic license to make it look how they please.
B) Not necessarily a D&D Tarrasque; it's based off it but they haven't given any inclination that it has anything to do with the D&D Tarrasque other than a similar name and look.
C) More ready to incorporate into WFB games because it seems to fit on one of the big chariot bases.
I'll just point out that "Tarasque" is not a D&D-exclusive term. It's basically French for "Dragon".
Maelstrom Games wrote:Also, for a rider or chariot type conversion, the armoured back carapace is one seperate piece that is removable and is fully detailed underneath like the rest of the warty reptilian skin. So fitting a rider(s)/howdah is entirely possible. Should you wish.
I couldn't bring myself to do such a thing! LOL That carapace is too awesome!
That is pretty sweet. The removable carapace is a great idea.
Any chance of getting a spare carapace part so that the end use could have one naked carapace and one with a howdah built onto it? I am not ready to buy one mind you, just think that would be a really clever idea. Perhaps someday when I have a real income again
Psare parts are something we may look at in the future - bit not ofr a wee while. We're pretty busy!
Finally! The first Monday of the month has arrived, so it must be BaneLords preview time!
Here's Alassar our High Elf Standard Bearer. Sculpted by Thomas David, painted by Sebasten Picque.
ALASSAR, BEARER OF THE DRAGON STANDARD
The tale of Alassar Ælfenden is a long and unfinished one. He has lived for a thousand years and will live for another thousand, so it is said, for his skill in battle is unmatched and his spirit will never yield. He has served his enclave since he was a youth, a mere stripling of an Ælf, and in that time he has fought the enemies of his people without fear or respite. So valiant is he that the Sun Kings themselves have paid homage to his tale, for to bear the Dragon Standard is the highest honour they could ever bestow. To be entrusted with such an ancient treasure, an artifact of the Ever Living Ones that has been borne through the history of the White Ælves from antiquity, is recognition of Alassar’s integrity and strength, his noble lineage and his implacable leadership, for all know none other could take to the field of battle with his surety and conviction.
Saw a lot of these at the UK Games EXPO this last week. They really are some impressive models, was tempted by the double headed giant rat ogre (would use as a HPA) & the Beastlord.
Scottywan82 wrote:It is nice, but doesn't match your usual standard I think. Also, quite a wide nose for an elf, isn't it?
It looks like the 'wide nose' is an illusion. He's got a 'guard' hanging down from his helmet's rim which makes the bridge of the nose appear a bit bigger.
Absolutely gorgeous though Maelstrom. I especially dig the 'pure black eyes' as a, intended or not, callback to Norse myth.
Scottywan82 wrote:It is nice, but doesn't match your usual standard I think. Also, quite a wide nose for an elf, isn't it?
It looks like the 'wide nose' is an illusion. He's got a 'guard' hanging down from his helmet's rim which makes the bridge of the nose appear a bit bigger.
Absolutely gorgeous though Maelstrom. I especially dig the 'pure black eyes' as a, intended or not, callback to Norse myth.
Actually no. The guard hanging down force the sculptor to separate the eyes further so they wont be half hidden under the guard.
Which force the width of the nose to go along with the wider spread eyes.
The elf does seem to lack the detail and crispness of the other sculpts.
Also not really digging the face. I've never particularly thought of elves as being asian, which is as others have pointed out what the soldier looks like.
Superb sculpting on the elf... I think people are used to to much bling on the models and forget that simple stuff is many times more enjoyable to paint
Scottywan82 wrote:I don't think anyone is saying that. It just doesn't suit our expected aesthetic. It doesn't quite look elf-ish.
Looks 100% elfish to me. Not as comical as others we used to see... its a middle ground between comical gw elf and better proportioned rackham and redboxgames elfs.. IMO
Interesting that you'd cite redbox, actually. I would say you're right that it's much closer to that aesthetic, but as another Rackham-devotee myself I don't see much of a resemblance. Rackham had a flair for depicting the ethereal and fae nature of their elves. This figure looks like he'd spit instead of responding to a question. Not too elf-y.
Unless you meant the armor. I suppose that's kind of Rackham-esque.
Also - comical? GW has some bad sculpts on the elf lines, but I wouldn't categorize them as comical on the whole.
Scottywan82 wrote:Interesting that you'd cite redbox, actually. I would say you're right that it's much closer to that aesthetic, but as another Rackham-devotee myself I don't see much of a resemblance. Rackham had a flair for depicting the ethereal and fae nature of their elves. This figure looks like he'd spit instead of responding to a question. Not too elf-y.
Unless you meant the armor. I suppose that's kind of Rackham-esque.
Also - comical? GW has some bad sculpts on the elf lines, but I wouldn't categorize them as comical on the whole.
Yeah the armor and shield and hands sizes head sculpt is close to rackham even if body is a bit more bulky...I say Comical in the sense of cartoonish proportions and not in the pejorative sense
And I do like the armor in the main. Not wild about the elf/dragon theme that won't go away, but I can live with it. I wonder if the head is separate. I think I still have one of the Cynwall boxes somewhere, and I think the champion's head would do nicely...
[overthink]What is the difference between an elf and a human in fancy armor?
In some aesthetics, there is none. An elf is just a human with a good diet/skin care plan and the technology to make lots of nifty decoration on their armor that would not be effective at human level technology. This is the D&D elf... balanced against the other races of the world to be no more or less appealing.
In other aesthetics, elves are otherworldly. They are fundamentally alien to the human mindset. While they may look beautiful, there should be something off about them that makes us uncomfortable. Maybe they are too angular or too thin. Maybe their eyes are formed wrong. They are haunting. We should feel simultaneously drawn to them and repulsed, because they represent a life humans should desire, and yet a doom that will ultimately lead to them fading away and being supplanted by us. This is the Tolkein elf... they don't have to be balanced because they are a literary device. They are a symbol of our longing for past, "better" times contrasted with our need to move forward into the future.
Of course there are other aesthetics for elves as well. I would say that this mini fits squarely in the first camp. I prefer the second, but there are very, very few miniatures that effectively convey that aesthetic. GW elves sometimes make a stab at it, but are let down by the afore-mentioned giant hands, ridiculously large spears, and general silliness. The closest examples I can think of are maybe Studio McVey's Ar-Fiach or Ar-Fienel. It's probably quite hard to make a functional gaming piece that conveys that ethereal quality clearly.
So I don't think Alassar is a bad miniature at all. It's just not what I want an elf to be. And maybe part of it is the paint job. The palette looks to be quite realistic. Perhaps if the colors were more expressive, it might look more the way I want it to.
The banner is great. The shield is good. The sword looks excellent in the miniature but a bit clumsy in the painted version. Maybe it's just so astoundingly fine that it's hard to work with without breaking it. The nose definitely doesn't fit with my pre-conceived notions of elven-ness, but I could live with it. It's the armor. It's not bad, it's just, well, mundane looking. Compared to the other Banelords it represents an obvious depiction of superior quality, but it just doesn't quite look as alien as I would want.[/overthink]
You are all wrong, the problem with the Elf is that it not a huge world shaking monster if it had been an Elric on a Dragon mini it would have compared well to the previous beasts. Compare any GW chaos warriors to the Forge world Bloodthirster-same problem.
Several people said it didnt stand up to other figures on this post, i was making the point that a single figure is always going to look insignificant and not impress when viewed against "centre piece" models.
jprp wrote:Several people said it didnt stand up to other figures on this post, i was making the point that a single figure is always going to look insignificant and not impress when viewed against "centre piece" models.
jprp wrote:Several people said it didnt stand up to other figures on this post, i was making the point that a single figure is always going to look insignificant and not impress when viewed against "centre piece" models.
Ah , makes sense
If you say so, Luna. As far as I'm aware though, plenty of single figures (Dark Eldar Lord, just off the top of my head) still look awesome next to "centerpiece figures" (Nagash anyone?).
I just don't think that sitting next to awesome figures is what is detracting from this one.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mithrax wrote:Ah, you guys are just complaining about the elf because his junk isn't showing
jprp wrote:Several people said it didnt stand up to other figures on this post, i was making the point that a single figure is always going to look insignificant and not impress when viewed against "centre piece" models.
Ah , makes sense
If you say so, Luna. As far as I'm aware though, plenty of single figures (Dark Eldar Lord, just off the top of my head) still look awesome next to "centerpiece figures" (Nagash anyone?).
I just don't think that sitting next to awesome figures is what is detracting from this one.
Might it be because he's not really a 'hero' and he's simply a flagwaver?
IMO: if he was carrying a blade in a low grip in the right hand, with his shield raised up to deflect a blow and the rest of the model posed accordingly--it'd be a much more 'Oomph'-y figure.
Scottywan82 wrote:Oh, as in - like a comic (DC/Marvel/etc). Gotcha.
And I do like the armor in the main. Not wild about the elf/dragon theme that won't go away, but I can live with it. I wonder if the head is separate. I think I still have one of the Cynwall boxes somewhere, and I think the champion's head would do nicely...
Its hard to tell if the scale is compatible... All these minis from different companies and made by different sculptors makes the scale so hard to figure out just by looking at pictures.
As for the centerpiece debate I don't know but a battle standart bearer is always a centerpiece in any army
Scottywan82 wrote:Oh, as in - like a comic (DC/Marvel/etc). Gotcha.
And I do like the armor in the main. Not wild about the elf/dragon theme that won't go away, but I can live with it. I wonder if the head is separate. I think I still have one of the Cynwall boxes somewhere, and I think the champion's head would do nicely...
Its hard to tell if the scale is compatible... All these minis from different companies and made by different sculptors makes the scale so hard to figure out just by looking at pictures.
As for the centerpiece debate I don't know but a battle standart bearer is always a centerpiece in any army
Only if the banner is a work of art in its own right.
Any army with a heavy visual fantasy element will have fantastical beasts that will draw the eye more than a couple of inches of banner (yes as in real life size matters).
Empire, Brettonian and high Elves dont fit into this category, they are just visually dull armies that when viewed from gaming distance just look like some men-compare any of those armies (painted to the same quality) with Skaven, Orcs, or Chaos and the armies with hordes of monsters are always better looking.
Maelstrom Games wrote:Oooh, looksl ike the High Elf is generating lots of debate. :8
Without exposing his wang!
I can't wait to see what comes next. I definitely want that Minotaur just to paint it. Got a birthday coming up so maybe I can convince the wife I need more figs...
Earlier we mentioned that the Tarask kits carapace is optional, so if you wish you can leave it off and maybe have a howdah or riders etc on top for conversions.
Here's a pic of the bare resin with the carpace left off, in this example the horns/crest has also been left off - if you wish to leave those off as well there is a small hole to fill, but for the carapace no hole at all and all the back area is fully detailed.
You could also use rare earth magents and have the kit as Tarask and maybe also as a war Tarask with an howdah/chariot type crew or a rider on throne or something - sky's the limit!
Options, options, options.........
Maelstrom Games wrote:You could also use rare earth magents and have the kit as Tarask and maybe also as a war Tarask with an howdah/chariot type crew or a rider on throne or something - sky's the limit!
Options, options, options.........
Mithrax wrote:Ah, you guys are just complaining about the elf because his junk isn't showing
Actually, some dynamic and scantily clad elves for Wardancer conversions would be great!
Possibly sporting some three legged jeans.
Seriously though, the GW wood elves do nothing for me with random bits of leather/metal apparently glued to their bodies. Some savage elf models of the "Screw you, animals don't need cloths and neither do we!", or at least wearing clothing in line with the laws of reality without glue, would be great.
First Friday of the month = BaneBeasts preview time
FLINT-FANG, KILL-THING OF THE INFERNAL PITS
The meat-melders of the Under-Vermin, chained to their flesh-slabs and their slice-knives and driven to produce ever more terrifying beasts of war for their masters, have surpassed even their own depraved expectations with Flint-Fang. Destined to be one of the Kill-Things, one of those murderous beasts that are unleashed upon the enemies of their warlords for both sport and war, Flint-Fang is a terrifying blend of verminous flesh built for strength and ferocity, grown to many times its original size and driven to insanity and bloodlust by its goader-cagers. Chained in a dank, filthy cave within the Infernal Pits that can barely contain its bulk and starved before it is released into battle, Flint-Fang is both a pet and a fortune to Blunt-Claw, the warlord that owns it, for the terrifying spectacle of the Blood-Pit is dominated by the savage fury of his beast and few other warlords dare to challenge his supremacy with Kill-Things of their own – for, even apart from the Blood-Pit and their owner’s reputations, the Kill-Things are needed, ever needed, by the armies of the Great Vermin in his wars against the above-men, and Flint-Fang will bring them death and carnage as they have never seen before.
Thrax wrote:My first impression of the painted elf is that he is Vietnamese. Just doesn't look quite right - not elfy by the standards I am familiar with.
Its the broad cheek bones and the flat'ish nose...
I much prefer the Flint-Fang to the Tarask... as I already have 2 Rackham Tarascus which dominates any battlefield or display with sheer size and detail.
You lucky so and sos - this month you are spoiled with not only Flint-Fang but two - yes two BaneLords and one of them is our biggest baneLord to date!
These guys also see Allan Carrasco complete his first BaneLord for us after some excellent work on the BaneBeasts Euryalia and Scar-Scath and also marks our first ever release Maagaan the Warlock sculpted by the legend that is JAG - Jaques Alexandre Gillois!
First up
All of our miniatures are cast in high quality resin.
There's currently a voucher on Maelstrom Games' website for 16% off UK RRP enter RAINY-SUMMER at the checkout stage for the discount. Pre-order and save money with free worldwise shipping on all orders over £10!
The warlock and troll are both amazing sculpts.
I don't really like those weird bumps on the warlock's forehead though, they just look so odd and make his face seem too busy what with the hair, tusks, and that very expressive face sculpt already all there.
agnosto wrote:My two cents, not like it matters, I don't collect miniatures for their anatomical correctness.
To me it's not art and even if it were I wouldn't want naked female or male bodies in my hobby room, on my gaming table, etc.
GW pushes the line sometimes with their minatures, especially considering it's targeted at prepubescent boys but outright modelling of genitalia, male or female, is not something I'm comfortable with.
I don't think porn has a place on a gaming table, esepecially considering the number of young participants that frequent FLGSs. If their parents don't mind them owning such models, that's fine; however, I don't believe adult, non-family members should be presenting this material. That's for a family to decide, not some strange neck-beard that happens to get his jollies by looking at the shock on little Timmy's face when he comes to the game table and sees the daemon with her S&M regalia and exposed breasts and the cyclops and minotaur dangling their parts for all to see.
Again, my opinion. What you do in your home is your business, what you bring to a public venue affects everyone.
I would hardly consider these minis anything resembling porn. I'm stunned how bent out of shape people get of a penis or balls.
Just read through this whole thread and there's some amazing models in here. Warlock, 2 headed rat beast and the Minotaur standard bearer are my faves.
Tempting to start collecting a WFB army just to use a couple of these.
Reminder - the voucher RAINY-SUMMER getting you 16% from the RRP at www.maelstromgames.co.uk (inc BaneLegions!) expires at midnight (GMT+1) as always free shipping worldwide on orders over £10.
The overall concept behind the hydra is great and believable, but aside from the claws and back plating, the whole model is really lacking in fine details.
Yea, that hydra dose not look very good. The only miss in a collection of otherwise outstanding models though.
It looks like a stop motion dinosaur with undetailed skin covering much of it's body. It dose look more like a natural animal than most hydras, but it really isn't even close to believable. Reminds me of an eight year old reaper model that was slightly scaled up.
I do like the forked tongues and the spines on it's back. I'm trying to save up for the chimera myself, but it is pricy with the currency conversion to usd (sometimes anyway, seems it's in a state of heavy flux all the time these days)
Im afraid im in the negative camp for this one.
I think the sculpter has gone for a more Tortoise-like skin texture rather than "traditional" skales like on a Dragon or similar, i suppose if you are a master blender you could come up with some unique skin tones on this but its not for me.
urgg!
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