Im in college and I started the discussion started by maybe many IG fans is what would happen if they came here my friend says that 100 modern soilders v 100 guardsman in an open field that the imperial guard would have no significant advantage.
Chapter Master Aeneas wrote:Im in college and I started the discussion started by maybe many IG fans is what would happen if they came here my friend says that 100 modern soilders v 100 guardsman in an open field that the imperial guard would have no significant advantage.
I would say it really depends on how the 40k sci fi weapons and equipment compare to real life ones. Since we don't have a real comparison to how a lasgun works, anything along these lines is pure conjecture.
Well, it'd be logical to assume that lasguns are lighter, easier to aim (by virtue of being lighter), and stronger than your average military rifle (at full power, a lasgun can blow limbs off). They're also much more accurate, by virtue of being laser weaponry.
Armour for the average gaurdsman is probably somewhat better than modern military armour. Either stronger or lighter, or a combination of both.
Fafnir wrote:Well, it'd be logical to assume that lasguns are lighter, easier to aim (by virtue of being lighter), and stronger than your average military rifle (at full power, a lasgun can blow limbs off). They're also much more accurate, by virtue of being laser weaponry.
Armour for the average gaurdsman is probably somewhat better than modern military armour. Either stronger or lighter, or a combination of both.
That's what I say but he wants to know in more detail why for example how the lasgun works and what flak ar
Our is made of
The other way to look at it is that the lasgun has the same stats as the autogun, which is an assault rifle. The weapons are therefore basically the same on both sides.
The IG are trained to fight without any initiative, obedient to the orders of their officers.
Modern troops are trained to use their initiative to cope with changing combat situations, and are far less reliant on their officers.
I think that because of this, the modern troops would quickly kill off the IG officers and take the men prisoner.
from what I read. Modern Rifles(Autoguns or stubbers) as they call them in Wh40k universe can be just as effective as any lasgun. The advantage of a lasgun is its a lot more durable cheaper and easier to maintain. I disagree with the armor, flak armor if the term is to be used in modern terms is designed to stop shrapnel, rather then bullets. As for a 100 vs 100 on even grounds it would rely on tactics.
It would depend a lot on the IG in question, to be honest. Many are tied to orders from above, as Killkrazy pointed out. Others tend to operate only in very large formations with support.
Other IG are more independent minded. Catachans take initiative in the fluff.
It also depends on the soldiers in question. Comparing a Valhallan company to a modern US or Royal Marine company is very different from comparing Catachans to North Korean infantry.
That is partly true as in they are trained to follow orders without question but a guardsman squad could use their initiative due to being highly trained remember guardsmen train longer and harder
Modern troops would win, they have ACOG sights and are better trained. The reason IG are like that is that they need alot of men fast, they don't get as much training. Veterens are more comparible to modern troops who have had combat experiance I think.
I'd say that soldiers are soldiers even in future, so it would be about the equipment. Lasgun vs moder rifle.. I'd say lasgun wins. If it didn't, why the hell would they use them after 40000 years?
IG armour can give some protecting from genestealers too (with 6's ) and they can punch through tanks. I doubt modern armours can offer much protection from knives without hindering your movements.
So yeah.. IG wins.
Thunder555 wrote:I'd say that soldiers are soldiers even in future, so it would be about the equipment. Lasgun vs moder rifle.. I'd say lasgun wins. If it didn't, why the hell would they use them after 40000 years?
Logistics. One of the biggest advantages of the lasgun is that it doesn't fire ammuntion, it can simply be recharged from nearly any power source.
IG armour can give some protecting from genestealers too (with 6's ) and they can punch through tanks. I doubt modern armours can offer much protection from knives without hindering your movements.
So yeah.. IG wins.
Modern militaries dont' worry about knives for the same reason they dont' worry about stopping crossbow bolts: they're rarely encountered in battle.
IG would win, they have 38k years of more fighting than todays troops, plus the LRBT will just steam roll any thing we have, the Vendetta will blow our tanks to dust and any other goodie you can think of. The Guard just have more toys than our boys and they know how to use them better.
Don't get me worng, we'll give it a go but in the end the IG are just more hard core.
Thunder555 wrote:I'd say that soldiers are soldiers even in future, so it would be about the equipment. Lasgun vs moder rifle.. I'd say lasgun wins. If it didn't, why the hell would they use them after 40000 years?
Logistics. One of the biggest advantages of the lasgun is that it doesn't fire ammuntion, it can simply be recharged from nearly any power source.
IG armour can give some protecting from genestealers too (with 6's ) and they can punch through tanks. I doubt modern armours can offer much protection from knives without hindering your movements.
So yeah.. IG wins.
Modern militaries dont' worry about knives for the same reason they dont' worry about stopping crossbow bolts: they're rarely encountered in battle.
Oh, point was that IG armour is more likely to stop a bullet than modern day armour is able to stop a laser blast. And recharging the lasgun is a good point. I remember reading that some pattern lasguns can be charged even with sunlight.
Thunder555 wrote:Oh, point was that IG armour is more likely to stop a bullet than modern day armour is able to stop a laser blast. And recharging the lasgun is a good point. I remember reading that some pattern lasguns can be charged even with sunlight.
Well, any game that has had rules and fluff for lasguns and autoguns has had them be very simillar, and the autogun is described as an assault rifle shooting caseless ammo.
However, where I think there is a big potential difference, is the rise of body armor in the 40th millenium. Modern bullets aren't exactly armor piercing or high caliber. It's possible that lasguns do have far more stopping power with no corresponding drop in rate of fire or accuracy.
I think the 'leadership' factor is getting a bit underplayed here. I don't mean leadership in terms of who's got better sergeants, etc, but rather in terms of 'we lost 8/10 men and we're still charging with bayonets fixed'.
It's been a long, long time since two militaries of roughly equivalent technology level faced each other in open combat. By our standards, IG infantry are probably very near to fearless. Losses that we'd consider a horrific disaster (30%+) are probably within IG acceptable tolerances.
For 100 guys on each side, facing across an open field, with roughly equivalent kit, I have to think that IG win through willingness to lose more bodies.
Tactics vs firepower vs philosophy is what it comes down to. Heres a breakdown of a straight troops vs troops, no armor or support vehicles.
Firepower:
IG - Roughly equal to a WWII company at the 100 man level. Has lasguns, grenades, some heavy weapons (.30 stubbers, .50 autocannons, flamers, rocket launchers), possibly some very heavy weapons (lascannons, heavy bolters). Wears Flak armor, which is capable of stopping multiple autogun rounds and partially stopping lasgun rounds. Effective against knives, etc.
US military - 100 man unit operates in seperate squads instead of a large unit. Has light to medium autoguns in the .30 or smaller range, light machine guns, grenades, limited antitank missiles, maybe one .50 machine gun per 100 troops, possibly a 40mm grenade launcher also. Wears light (relatively) flack vests that can stop shrapnel and small arms fire, but not high powered assault rifle rounds or large caliber rounds. Zero protection against knives, etc, unless ceramic inserts are used, increasing weight.
Tactics:
IG - Tactics vary wildly depending on which regiment is selected for the comparison. Majority of IG fight like WWII troops, large scale battles with mobile but very defined lines of combat. Trench warfare is common, but small squad actions are also common. General operation orders are strictly enforced by commissars and officers, small squads are often permitted wide leeway in how to execute those orders as long as the mission is accomplished. Engaging the enemy with extreme prejudice and little regard for collateral damage is accepted as the way things are done.
US military - Tactics are streamlined for fast, hard hitting units. Squad based action with individuals operating specific assignments are common. Orders are more general (mostly) with units being allowed leeway in interpreting orders and execution. Trench warfare obsolete after introduction of blitzkreig, or shock and awe, warfare. Troops are trained to hit hard and keep going, doing minimal collateral damage with precision shooting. Encouraged to use minimal force necessary to accomplish the mission.
Philosophy:
IG - More is better. The more troops, the more firepower, the more armor, the more everything you throw at a problem, the faster it stops being a problem. Zero regard for lives or collateral damage, IG is completely willing to level a home, village, city or planet to accomplish the goal, and spend as many lives as required to that end.
US military - Less is more. Precision, lightning strikes with minimal force and maximum shock value. Snipers, aimed fire and non-lethal grenades combined with shock assaults are the bread and butter. Will go out of its way to avoid civilian casualties, and even to ensure that enemy combatants can be captured. Avoids collateral damage whenever possible. Will retreat from battle if casualties become excessive (more than 30-40%), typically to get reinforcements.
For a level comparison, IG wins in Armor and Firepower. Tactics are harder to compare, as certain units would fare differently that other units on both sides. The US military has a better Philosophy, especially for long term civilization, as they try to not damage the infrastructure of wherever they are fighting. However, this leads to battles and wars being drawn out much longer than if a total war mentality was used like the IG.
If you want a 100 man unit the three rifle platoons plus three platoon HQs provide a total of 81 + 15 men equipped with
Six heavy (?) machine-guns (possibly 7.62mm ?)
18 grenade launchers (40mm underslung type)
18 light machine-guns (M249)
78 assault rifles (M4)
Grenades and bayonets are also carried but not listed. Some men may have a pistol.
If weapons from the company HQ and heavy weapons platoons are to be included, then grenade MGs, 50-cal MGs, 60mm and 81mm mortars are available.
A modern military will have absolutely no problem taking out an army of IG or SM or any xenos army you can think of simply due to the air support available.
All of the IG tanks would be destroyed miles and miles before they ever reached the battlefield.
That's assuming the IG doesnt bring in their own air support in the form of Valks, Vendettas and the Imperial Navy (although depending on the argument, it could be said that the IN is a separate organisation than the IG). Hydras might spell doom for any attempted bomb runs (although their effectiveness against our aircrafts is unclear, they certainly chew up 40k aircrafts though). If the IN is involved, the IG would possibly have orbital support too, especially drop troops.
A modern military will have absolutely no problem taking out an army of IG or SM or any xenos army you can think of simply due to the air support available.
All of the IG tanks would be destroyed miles and miles before they ever reached the battlefield.
+1
Totally agree. That's QFT.
Let's compare IG and some western world military.
The training and the experience of the guardsmen will depend on his world of origin. If its cadia, our boys are pretty much busted in terms of experience or combat training. If it's some backwater world of the IoM, we would not have much to worry about.
The equipment of guardsmen also depends on their world of origin. A flak armour will probably stop a couple of 7.62 mm bullets before breaking. The problem is that ALL of our modern soldiers are equipped with automatic weapons with a firing rate of rouglhly 700 bullets/min. This means that a sustained burst of bullets from a modern assault rifle will make a mockery of the guard's armour. Lasguns are powerful, but are semi-auto weapons with a very limited rate of fire. Which means that they will have fewer chances of touching our boys.
The tactics are also important. Guard fighting tactics are inspired of WWII tactics, which are no match for modern armies' manoeuvers and tactics.
Finally, what about the guard's armour support? All their tanks are big and powerful. Massively powerful usually. An M1 Abrams will field a 105 mm cannon and 12.7 mm machineguns as secondaries and co-ax. A LRBT will field a 120 mm cannon as main, probably lascannons as sponsons and hull-mounted weapons, and maybe even a pintle-mounted storm bolter and a co-ax heavy bolter. It is clear that in terms of firepower, we're beaten. But a LRBT is big, really big. It has roughly the same weight than an abrams (the abrams is a bit heavier), but is a lot taller, with big, flat flanks. On the other hand, an abrams has a relatively low profile with oblique flanks, for a better resistance to armour-piercing rounds. I think a LRBT would get an airstrike in the face before even managing to touch our tanks.
Lasguns can fire full auto, and have more rounds per magazine than an assault rifle. And our troops are not trained to fire full auto, they are specifically trained to NOT waste ammo that way. The rate of fire that our guns can deliver is immaterial, since they almost never use mroe than three round bursts.
There is no practical basis to compare ceranite armor against an Abrams Chobham armor, but offhand Id say the ceramite gives much greater thickness and protection on a pound for pound basis. So, while an Abrams may have a smaller profile, it would probably take 3-4 shots for an Abrams to kill a LRBT.
Introducing airpower, sorry, we lose. Our air to air missiles are designed to shoot down unarmored planes, and the armor piercing air to ground missiles cant be used against aircraft. Add in lascannons and while we may not get shot down, we would be forced away from the battlefield.
In the end, however, I say that it would be the mindset of the IG that would beat us. The ability to wage total, unrestricted war would simply crack our units morale. A very close comparison would be to put the IG next to WWII marine corps. In the pacific, we had to learn unrestricted war to beat the Japanese, including using nuclear weapons and firebombing civilian targets. And we were preparing to lose, not commit to fight but LOSE, 150,000 troops in an invasion of the Japanese main island if the nukes didnt work.
Shoot a Phoenix missile at a marauder bomber. It may be armored, it will NOT survive the strike. It is absolutely impossible. The hull and the superstructure may survive the explosion, but the wings and the turbojets will be screwed. That means one marauder bomber down. Same thing with thunderbolts and lightnings. In addition, no imperial aircraft can match the speed of medern days jets. I don't know why, it sounds really stupid to me, but GW decided to create imperial planes that way. The only imperial plane capable of reaching the speed of an F-22, for example, is the lightning (2400kph, roughly mach 2). Talking of F-22, the IoM does not seem to psess stealth fighters tech. Which means their planes will have to take ours down with autocannons and lascannons, and visually acquire our plane. i bet a thunderbolt would be blasted apart before being able to see our planes. In addition, thunderbolts and lightings are heavy, and are definitely less manoeuvrable and aerodynamic than modern jet fighters. Which means that even in a dogfight, our planes would have a good chance of taking down the ennemy aircraft (not saying it's gonna be easy though).
But still, as killcrazy said, the original post was infantry against infantry. Which would be 50/50 in my opinion.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:That's assuming the IG doesnt bring in their own air support in the form of Valks, Vendettas and the Imperial Navy (although depending on the argument, it could be said that the IN is a separate organisation than the IG). Hydras might spell doom for any attempted bomb runs (although their effectiveness against our aircrafts is unclear, they certainly chew up 40k aircrafts though). If the IN is involved, the IG would possibly have orbital support too, especially drop troops.
The problem is that Valks and Vendettas move incredibly slowly. Average walking speed is 3 or 4 mph, which translates to 6" in game. That means that Valks and Vendettas move at a top speed of 24mph. A UH-60 has a max speed of 173mph armed with AGM-114 with a range of 8000m. Assuming 1:35 scale, this translates into a 40k range of almost 9000". Even the GAU-19 gatling gun has a 40k range of over 2000" (effective range, not maximum). A single UH-60 would easily outmaneuver and outgun massive squadrons of Valks. And fixed-wing aircraft that get way faster than that and with more firepower.
And, Hydras are a terrible anti-aircraft weapon. They actually rely on actually shooting a visible target! Modern aircraft can easily fire over the horizon, which makes Hydras COMPLETELY worthless.
The IG would put up a decent fight against a WWI era army, possibly even WWII, but modern rocketry makes everything the IG has obsolete.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for a pure infantry vs infantry. An M16 has an effective range of 550m, 618" in 40k terms. IG infantry would be dead long before they could get in range (for comparison, a lasgun has an equivalent RL range of 21m)
There is also something called Game Balance. A valk can't more incredibly fast in game because the ability to outflank & hit any inch of the board while still firing would be ridiculous. Also the valk plays a similar role to a helicopter. Flying in, delivering troops & providing close air support. Comparing it to a fighter jet shows a gross misunderstanding of battlefield roles.
Many people have the "Go america / Insert country, we win because we are the awesome." We aren't. A 40kAT missile (Krak) has only a 1/6 chance of GLANCING the frontal armor of a leman russ. Their tanks are better than ours. We also care about civilian casualities, they don't. We have LIMITED resources. If they are hitting us from space you can damn well be sure they have a nigh unlimited supply line. People mention Air Superiority, lol. I thought this was Army Vs Army, if you are bringing in the Airforce, they have the navy their planes are better than ours. They control space, they win. any way you look at it, as with the tyranid threat, we. are. boned.
I say the IG knocks us on our modern-day butts....
This is the difference between the overall quality of the IG (millions of Regiments, all trained to very similar tolerances, the Infantry Uplifting Primer,...........Doctrine is different based on planet so there is a wide range....Shock troops, Drop Troops, jungle fighters, City fighters......) vs the Overall quality of our modern day warriors.....Some countries have excellent training and tactical doctrines.....some do not.
There are only a few nations with Battle hardened troops readily available....The US, Iraq (Both Sides), Afghanistan, Russia, some of our NATO allies....various guerilla units... The IG is Battle Hardened and faces things that would make our modern day troops crap their collective pants....Tyranids, Orks, Dark Eldar......our troops wouldnt stand up to a full WAAAGH charge....
Its so hard to think that there is anyone that could come to think of the IG ever standing up to any modern army.
Someone said they are all but fearless and a 30% death ratio would mean nothing to them...try a 100%
Have you ever even read about the 10s of THOUSANDS of deaths the Soviets had in wave attacks vs the Germans.
There is just no way that a army of the IG could stand vs a "real" army.
And if you bring tanks into it. That will only get worse for the IG.
Im sorry but there is no tank in the IG that comes close to being as good as any main line battle tank of the modern world.
And air power.....at best the IG air ships are = to a Jet from the Korean War. And that would be on a good day.
The only way any army in the 40k game "if real" could beat a modern army would be from orbit.
Maybe you should say who would win in a 100vs100 knife fight...then id go with the IG.
A modern military will have absolutely no problem taking out an army of IG or SM or any xenos army you can think of simply due to the air support available.
All of the IG tanks would be destroyed miles and miles before they ever reached the battlefield.
+1
Totally agree. That's QFT.
Let's compare IG and some western world military.
The training and the experience of the guardsmen will depend on his world of origin. If its cadia, our boys are pretty much busted in terms of experience or combat training. If it's some backwater world of the IoM, we would not have much to worry about.
The equipment of guardsmen also depends on their world of origin. A flak armour will probably stop a couple of 7.62 mm bullets before breaking. The problem is that ALL of our modern soldiers are equipped with automatic weapons with a firing rate of rouglhly 700 bullets/min. This means that a sustained burst of bullets from a modern assault rifle will make a mockery of the guard's armour.
Lasguns are powerful, but are semi-auto weapons with a very limited rate of fire. Which means that they will have fewer chances of touching our boys.
The tactics are also important. Guard fighting tactics are inspired of WWII tactics, which are no match for modern armies' manoeuvers and tactics.
Finally, what about the guard's armour support? All their tanks are big and powerful. Massively powerful usually. An M1 Abrams will field a 105 mm cannon and 12.7 mm machineguns as secondaries and co-ax. A LRBT will field a 120 mm cannon as main, probably lascannons as sponsons and hull-mounted weapons, and maybe even a pintle-mounted storm bolter and a co-ax heavy bolter. It is clear that in terms of firepower, we're beaten. But a LRBT is big, really big. It has roughly the same weight than an abrams (the abrams is a bit heavier), but is a lot taller, with big, flat flanks. On the other hand, an abrams has a relatively low profile with oblique flanks, for a better resistance to armour-piercing rounds. I think a LRBT would get an airstrike in the face before even managing to touch our tanks.
I say we win.
And the Imperial Guard doesn't have air support? REALLY?
Armageddon Class Battleship>Us
Snogs wrote:
Im sorry but there is no tank in the IG that comes close to being as good as any main line battle tank of the modern world.
And air power.....at best the IG air ships are = to a Jet from the Korean War. And that would be on a good day.
Seriously? "A jet from the Korean War"? They have LASER CANNONS! Where do you get the specs for Thunderbolts and Lightnings from anyway? Not to mention the fact that Titans, if we for some silly reason brought them into the equation, would laugh at our battle tanks. And TBH, the Leman Russ tank would too.
Grakmar wrote:As for a pure infantry vs infantry. An M16 has an effective range of 550m, 618" in 40k terms. IG infantry would be dead long before they could get in range (for comparison, a lasgun has an equivalent RL range of 21m)
Lasers have a range far in excess of any projectile weapon; you must know about all the hoo-har over laser pointers being aimed at aircraft cockpits.
LOL the fan boys are out today.
The Main line battle tank of the IG the Russ. Has a 150mm of "steal" armor or about 6 inch's.
and a side armor of about 4 inch's.
ANY and I mean ANY modern anti tank round would go right throw a Russ and exit the back of it.
The Leman Russ is at best a WW2 King Panzer. And that is a insult to the crews of those those panzers.
And as I said the only way we lose is from orbit. So ill give you your Armageddon BattleShip.
And ill give you the guardsmen in a knife fight.
Other then that....we win hands down.
And I don't care if they mount lasers by the dozens, they cant hit the broad side of a barn.
Bad targeting systems? No Targeting systems? All I know is that we don't roll these when we fight air wars. Nuff Said.
Polonius wrote:That's a really great point. IG will literally keep moving and let the casualties fall. Few modern militaries would do that.
That was the Soviet method at the start of the Great Patriotic War. They did very badly using those tactics.
BUT IG aren't necessarily going to needlessly die at their enemy just 'cause (although I don't deny it's been done in the past, but only with superior numbers against a qualitatively superior foe). This isn't 100 IG sprinting at 100 modern day Marines in prepared positions, it's an open field with 100 guys to a side, last man standing wins.
In equipment, IG probably have an edge-slight or significant is arguable.
In tactical doctrine, our modern militaries probably have an edge.
But in the theoretical scenario of 100 v 100 fighting across an open field, there's very little room for tactical doctrine to play a significant role. To my eye, it actually seems that the scenario heavily favors IG because it's a static, two-dimensional fight within fixed parameters--this is the kind of fight that IG is built for and excels at.
When both sides are forced to toe the firing line and simply grind the other guys down for the win, I think the superior tech and 'fearless' nature of the IG will carry the day. In a Napoleonic/WWI style fight, technology being equal, I think the Napoleonic/WWI-trained army is going to carry the day.
Wow, people in this thread have no idea just how advanced the US Military really is. Flak Armor was the stuff worn by pilots back in WW2 so they wouldn't get shredded by shrapnel from ground fire, it hardly acts as any kind of reliable defense vs any modern military rifle round.
Unless the Leman Russ is a Vanquisher, Demolisher or Plasma variant it wouldn't stand a chance against a Abrams. I adore the LRBT but look at the two: The Leman Russ is some clunky WW2-era rolling box with very straight surfaces and I havn't heard of any built-in counter measure like even the Russian T90 which has reactive armor. As you can see on both the Abrams and the T90 they have sloped edges wherever possible and those tanks are low profile, unlike the LRBT whose turret sticks out like a sore thumb.
As for air superiority, flak cannons are not a very good defense against US Aircraft. Hell, even ground to air systems suffer horribly as their communications get knocked out before a missile can fire. The most a Hydra could reliable threaten is the A10 Warthog and I've read reports of one of the engines in those getting disabled and the pilot still is combat capable and was able to get back to base.
In the grand scheme of things the modern Militaries would get swarmed by the Imperium's ability to field countless bodies, but they would likely have to put resources into their conquest of Earth.
''Flak Armour'' is just what they call it. If it was real flak armor there would be no imperium left. It's crappy for uber advanced weapons of the 41st millenium, but that's 40000 years in the future. It's all relative.
Now, the ability of their various support doesn't matter, it's a hundred infantry men on each side, not a campaign for world domination. I think that the imperial gaurd's ability to work on greater scale is a huge advantage, not to mention the technological edge. My vote goes to the guard.
If it were a larger battle then the guardsmen would get tanks from 40000 years in the future made of made up materials.
Just to be frank, any time my IG stop a genestealer from ripping him apart. I assume that when he gets a save its just him freaking out staggering back and the genestealer tripping on the a rock.
1 vs 1 the IG wins because flak armor block multi megajoule Lasguns(tell me when modern small arms can do that).Flak armor is very good(and made of 40k materials).In Storm of Iron a soldier gets a shot from bolt action rifle and he ends with a bruise.
xlightscreen wrote:Just to be frank, any time my IG stop a genestealer from ripping him apart. I assume that when he gets a save its just him freaking out staggering back and the genestealer tripping on the a rock.
You can conceptualize it that way, but IG flak armor is still incredibly advanced stuff by today's standards. Its relative crappiness is more a reflection of how incredibly badass the weaponry in 40k is, from Genestealer talons to fully automatic .70 caliber rocket propelled warhead bullets, than it is a reflection of how bad their armor tech happens to be.
Flak armour is more resilient than Just think that you need nothing short of a rocket propelled grenade (boltgun) to punch through just think of flak armour is like the special fabric they put in armoured cars which stop bullets
Razgryz wrote:Lasguns can fire full auto, and have more rounds per magazine than an assault rifle. And our troops are not trained to fire full auto, they are specifically trained to NOT waste ammo that way. The rate of fire that our guns can deliver is immaterial, since they almost never use mroe than three round bursts.
There is no practical basis to compare ceranite armor against an Abrams Chobham armor, but offhand Id say the ceramite gives much greater thickness and protection on a pound for pound basis. So, while an Abrams may have a smaller profile, it would probably take 3-4 shots for an Abrams to kill a LRBT.
Introducing airpower, sorry, we lose. Our air to air missiles are designed to shoot down unarmored planes, and the armor piercing air to ground missiles cant be used against aircraft. Add in lascannons and while we may not get shot down, we would be forced away from the battlefield.
In the end, however, I say that it would be the mindset of the IG that would beat us. The ability to wage total, unrestricted war would simply crack our units morale. A very close comparison would be to put the IG next to WWII marine corps. In the pacific, we had to learn unrestricted war to beat the Japanese, including using nuclear weapons and firebombing civilian targets. And we were preparing to lose, not commit to fight but LOSE, 150,000 troops in an invasion of the Japanese main island if the nukes didnt work.
I think we'd all like to see the numbers. IG getting 'slaughtered' with both a technological and doctrinal advantage in a setting that nullifies modern armed forces' 'tactical' advantage seems pretty far fetched.
Round 1. Range = 35.9 inches
US light infantry open fire with 24 machine guns (counts as heavy stubber but profile of S3 --
12 casualties inflicted.
IG advance 9.5 inches.
Round 2. Range = 26.4 inches
US light infanry inflict another 12 casualties
IG advance 9.5 inches
Round 3. Range = 16.9 inches
US infantry adds 18 grenade launchers and 58 auto guns to their machine-gun fire.
27 casualties inflicted.
IG advance 9.5 inches.
Round 4. Range = 7.4 inches
US infantry can now double tap with 58 auto guns.
36 casualties inflicted.
IG return fire with as many lasguns and pistols as they have left and inflict come casualties. I didn't bother to calculate this because they are now massively outnumbered.
Remaining IG strength =13
Round 5.
IG charge.
US retreat.
Range = 1.4 inches
US wipe out the 13 remaining IG with close range rifle fire.
Alternatively they counter-charged and wipe them out in H2H having offensive and defensive grenades, and outnnumbering the IG about 95 to 13.
In Honor Guard Leman Russes stomped tanks which were basically strong as out modern day tanks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote:*snip*
If we used fluff the IG would have stomped modern day army because of the superior equipment(tactics depend on regiment,but the novel Straight Silver totally refutes the possibility that IG fights like a WW1 army).
I'm going to continue to play devil's advocate just because I enjoy this discussion >_>
The modern day HEAT (High Explosive Anti-tank) warhead can penetrate up to and greater than 250% diameter of the warhead. And with such easily identifiable crew compartments on an LRBT I highly doubt it would take 3-4 shots for any US or Russian made tank to disable or outright destroy an LRBT.
FireWolf698 wrote:I'm going to continue to play devil's advocate just because I enjoy this discussion >_>
The modern day HEAT (High Explosive Anti-tank) warhead can penetrate up to and greater than 250% diameter of the warhead. And with such easily identifiable crew compartments on an LRBT I highly doubt it would take 3-4 shots for any US or Russian made tank to disable or outright destroy an LRBT.
Considering that Leman Russ in Storm of Iron resist multi-melta(a weapon calced at hundred of gigajoules) I rather doubt that HEAT can do it.
I think Killkrazy has made the mistake of assuming that all IG regiments charge across open fields for the heck of it. They do this on occassion, but ussually these charges number in the hundreds of thousands, rather than just one hundred. These 100 men could be grenadiers, have cameloine cloaks ect. We're not necesarily looking at your basic Hive Regiment where the cannon fodder comes out.
In the battle for Maccrage the human forces their opened fire with their las weaponry when the Tyranids were at 500m. I think the game mechanic of 24" can be safely disgarded as just that.
Shas'O Dorian wrote:There is also something called Game Balance. A valk can't more incredibly fast in game because the ability to outflank & hit any inch of the board while still firing would be ridiculous. Also the valk plays a similar role to a helicopter. Flying in, delivering troops & providing close air support. Comparing it to a fighter jet shows a gross misunderstanding of battlefield roles.
Many people have the "Go america / Insert country, we win because we are the awesome." We aren't. A 40kAT missile (Krak) has only a 1/6 chance of GLANCING the frontal armor of a leman russ. Their tanks are better than ours. We also care about civilian casualities, they don't. We have LIMITED resources. If they are hitting us from space you can damn well be sure they have a nigh unlimited supply line.
People mention Air Superiority, lol. I thought this was Army Vs Army, if you are bringing in the Airforce, they have the navy their planes are better than ours. They control space, they win. any way you look at it, as with the tyranid threat, we. are. boned.
Mouahahaaa! Fool! I'm gonna jump on this occasion to turn your reasonning against you!
You mentionned game balance, which is perfectly relevant. I think when we compare our tech and tactics to the IG, we should stick to fluff info and IA books specifications about vehicles (speed, armour thickness, etc) and forget about game rules. Which means that your point on the chance a frak missile has to penetrate a LRBT armour is irelevant. The fact that you can only penetrate a LRBT frontal armour with a six with your dice does not mean it is going to work the same way in real life (if I can mention real life while talking about an encounter between plastic minis and GIs).
Still, piercing through the frontal armour of a leman russ is going to be hard with our modern weapons. But there are other ways to destroy a tank than to simply blow it to tiny pieces. Hit the tracks, and the tank will not do much for the rest of the day. Hit the rear section of the LRBT with any explosive device, and the engine is screwed up (radiator destroyed, exaust system broken, etc...). You can also try to hit the tank with incendiary shells, and brew up the crew of the LRBT. I think a LRBT beats any of our modern tanks, but it not invincible. But still, this thread implies infantry against infantry, so we should forget about the heavy gear.
And I still think our air support beats the imperial navy wings. Really hard.
Round 1. Range = 35.9 inches
US light infantry open fire with 24 machine guns (counts as heavy stubber but profile of S3 --
12 casualties inflicted.
IG advance 9.5 inches.
Round 2. Range = 26.4 inches
US light infanry inflict another 12 casualties
IG advance 9.5 inches
Round 3. Range = 16.9 inches
US infantry adds 18 grenade launchers and 58 auto guns to their machine-gun fire.
27 casualties inflicted.
IG advance 9.5 inches.
Round 4. Range = 7.4 inches
US infantry can now double tap with 58 auto guns.
36 casualties inflicted.
IG return fire with as many lasguns and pistols as they have left and inflict come casualties. I didn't bother to calculate this because they are now massively outnumbered.
Remaining IG strength =13
Round 5.
IG charge.
US retreat.
Range = 1.4 inches
US wipe out the 13 remaining IG with close range rifle fire.
Alternatively they counter-charged and wipe them out in H2H having offensive and defensive grenades, and outnnumbering the IG about 95 to 13.
You've . . . 'run the numbers'? What on earth is this? You took a made up game system built around single-digit values and rolls of a d6, assigned similar numbers to a real-life military, and calculated these completely arbitrary probabilities? What on earth could this possibly 'prove'?
I'm sorry to be rude. But this whole discussion is completely pointless, as the IG is a made up army. And the way of 'determining results' is just the strangest hting I've ever seen.
It's such a pity that one side has vastly superior technology and flak armour that can shrug off the rounds of M4 and M16s without issue. The Grenade launchers might conceivably be a problem... right up to the moment a Heavy Bolter or Autocannon is set up.
For the comparisons to the Soviet thousands of casualties, for the Ig, that's nothing, they have billions of soldiers, far more than the entire population on Earth.
For air support, modern armies may have fast planes, but thge IG have orbital bombardments. They can shoot us from space!
The sci-fi weapons of the IG would also be a huge advantage, meltaguns, meltabombs, lascannons, plasma of any type, being more afraid of what's behind them than what's in from of them, and the sheer weight of numbers means they could take out earth with ease (Exterminatus anybody? We can't defend from orbital strikes at our technological level).
It doesn't matter if you can wipe out a few tanks, they have 20,000 more just over that hill, behind the several hundred thousand (or more) troops. Our small, strike force tactics wouldn't work against those numbers. In a war of attrition, they'd win, just because they can afford to last a loooot longer than we can.
Round 1. Range = 35.9 inches
US light infantry open fire with 24 machine guns (counts as heavy stubber but profile of S3 --
12 casualties inflicted.
IG advance 9.5 inches.
Round 2. Range = 26.4 inches
US light infanry inflict another 12 casualties
IG advance 9.5 inches
Round 3. Range = 16.9 inches
US infantry adds 18 grenade launchers and 58 auto guns to their machine-gun fire.
27 casualties inflicted.
IG advance 9.5 inches.
Ok well done on thinking of running numbers but the tactics are seriously flawed for example how come the imperial guard are charging, why are they not using their superior fire power to fire back for e.g. Heavy bolters and autocannons
Also the IG regiment will shall use is standard Cadian's
Round 4. Range = 7.4 inches
US infantry can now double tap with 58 auto guns.
36 casualties inflicted.
IG return fire with as many lasguns and pistols as they have left and inflict come casualties. I didn't bother to calculate this because they are now massively outnumbered.
Remaining IG strength =13
Round 5.
IG charge.
US retreat.
Range = 1.4 inches
US wipe out the 13 remaining IG with close range rifle fire.
Alternatively they counter-charged and wipe them out in H2H having offensive and defensive grenades, and outnnumbering the IG about 95 to 13.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry made a mistake on my IPhone what was mention to be put after the quote was
Ok well done on thinking of running numbers but the tactics are seriously flawed for example how come the imperial guard are charging, why are they not using their superior fire power to fire back for e.g. Heavy bolters and autocannons
I think we should sit out of range of your M60's and shoot you with the 10 auto cannon teams we have ha ha run those numbers 1-0 IG
Also the IG regiment will shall use is standard Cadian's
The way I see it, a 100 vs. 100 fight would never actually be possible since the Imperium would send more than just 100, unless they do some rounding errors in tax returns and send just one company (Fifteen Hours).
IG also have their long range artillery, Manticores, Deathstrikes, Hellstrikes, Melta weapons, Hellhounds (and variants which are fast), Vanquishers, Executioners and Punishers (if your regular run of the mill Battle Tank isn't enough).
Then you come across the super-heavies like the Baneblade and Titans. TITANS. We'd need something short of an ICBM to fully destroy one of those things.
Although, man to man, the modern US soldier is better equipped and trained but the Imperium has more men.
Basically we really are screwed if the Imperium lifts a finger of its actual might. Sending just 100 Guardsmen would probably just be another Fifteen Hours event. Something that the Imperial Guard can just forget about.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I think Killkrazy has made the mistake of assuming that all IG regiments charge across open fields for the heck of it. They do this on occassion, but ussually these charges number in the hundreds of thousands, rather than just one hundred. These 100 men could be grenadiers, have cameloine cloaks ect. We're not necesarily looking at your basic Hive Regiment where the cannon fodder comes out.
In the battle for Maccrage the human forces their opened fire with their las weaponry when the Tyranids were at 500m. I think the game mechanic of 24" can be safely disgarded as just that.
I made a few assumptions:
0. The stats to be used are from real life or the game, not from fiction.
1. The units involved are "standard", not specialists, so no sniper rifles, cameoline cloaks, etc. (Note that the US still have lots of night-fighting equipment because it is standard.)
2. The fight is 100 vs 100, as specified in the OP.
3. Vehicles and off-board artillery are not in use.
4. The superior qualities of the IG are:
High morale (no flinching from casualties)
Superior armour (I counted the US armour as Sv6)
Better melee weapons (powerfists, swords and so on)
5. The fighting starts as soon as one side is inside the maximum range of their weapons.
6. It runs basically according to game rules, though I assumed movement would be simultaneous rather than UGOIGO.
The long range firefight will be decided by support weapons such as machine-guns and grenade launchers. Since the US infantry have a high proportion of these, it makes sense for the IG to close the range as quickly as possible, to maximise their advantages.
Unsurprisingly, it turns out that charging at massed enemy automatic fire is pretty much suicide. Even if the IG stop to firefight when they in range with their lasguns, they have already been severely whittled down, despite their better armour, and will get badly outshot by weight of numbers, though they will cause more casualties to the US side.
If you want to make some assumptions that mean the IG automatically win, go ahead. But what's the point, really? We may as well just make a mega thread saying IoM vs anyone == Win!, sticky it, and lock any new threads that arise on the topic.
Kilkrazy wrote:
0. The stats to be used are from real life or the game, not from fiction.
The game is fictional. Game mechanics translated to IRL don't, and shouldn't, have any more validity than fictional information on them based on IRL. I largely agree with you other assumptions though.
If you want to make some assumptions that mean the IG automatically win, go ahead. But what's the point, really? We may as well just make a mega thread saying IoM vs anyone == Win!, sticky it, and lock any new threads that arise on the topic.
I didn't do that, please don't pretend I'm arguing with you becuase I have a raging boner for the Emperor (that's beside the point ). I just pointed out that the fluff supports your average lasgun roughly having the equivalent range of an assualt rifle.
No offense KK, but nearly any scenario involving infantry advancing against infantry results in massive losses and nearly certain failure.
And 100 Ig can have a lot of heavy weapons, if they wanted. I mean, you can send 100 conscritps across open ground, or you can take a arms and equiptment similar to what the current military has.
CCS w/ four specials
Then three platoons of:
PCS w/ four specials
2x Infantry squads with heavy/special
heavy weapon squad
So, you'd have 12 heavy weapons and 22 specials. And heavy bolters are far heavier than even a modern heavy machine gun, not to mention the availability of grenade launchers and missle launchers.
So, while the modern forces might (depending on the IG regiment) have more training and experience in small unit taactics, the IG are going to have the advantages in many other areas. And if you're going to bring up a relatively elite modern military, then it's only fair to include relatively elite IG regiment.
Kilkrazy wrote:The long range firefight will be decided by support weapons such as machine-guns and grenade launchers. Since the US infantry have a high proportion of these, it makes sense for the IG to close the range as quickly as possible, to maximise their advantages.
IG should have at least 1 heavy weapon and 1 special weapon per 10 men.
Your calculation gives the US light infantry 1 heavy weapon (machine gun) per every 4 men and an additional grenade launcher for almost every 5 men?
I've got no relevant experience with modern day infantry, but does every other guy really carry a special or heavy weapon?
As far as 100 on a hundred goes, I'd have to give it to the modern day soldiers/it being a tie. 100 men just isn't going to allow for the IG's strength to come into play. If the IG do a massed charge, they'll be slaughtered like KK shows. However, I'd say that one hundred Guardsmen are far more likely to want to rely on their heavy weapons, and any commander worth his salt would realize that the thing to do here would be to try and weaken the enemies morale/numbers with heavy fire so that when your attack comes, the enemy doesn't say 'I am going to stand and fight!' the enemy says 'Screw this, I'm out of here!'. Now, here the Guard have a major advantage in that with Commissars, they have 'better' morale than the average modern day soldier. They aren't going to fall back. They're going to hold the line or die trying. I feel it important to stress that while the IG may be dogmatic, they aren't idiots. They have 10,000 years of combat experience to draw upon, and they know how to fight, and that they will have to fight...one can never underestimate that.
But....just thinking about the size of a company, I have what I'd consider an infantry company of IG on the floor right now. It fields about 92 Guardsmen with lasguns, and 18 heavy weapons. I have a feeling that if such a force engaged a similar sized US Army company, the battle would likely turn into a stalemate with each side firing heavy weapons at each other. Whoever silences the opponents heavy weapons first wins. The battle could go either way.
Another point that I have to bring up (and I'm surprised no one else HAS) is the psychology of the war. Your average Guardsman has been indocrtinated since birth to know that he is just another piece of canon fodder, he is going to die, and the best he can do is make his death worthwhile. He likely has some combat experience under his belt, and any Veterans would definitely have experience facing horrors unkown to the modern battlefield.
Now, let's look at your average modern soldier. We'll use an American one simply cause well...a modern Western army will put up the best fight. Now, he's been raised to value individuality, and as a result views his own life, and the life of his companions as valuable in and of itself. If he has combat experience at all it will likely be against an guerilla force in either Iraq or Afghanistan. He may know abou the kind of horrors of war, but he hasn't experienced them directly, and to be honest, even the worst things on the modern battlefield would be child's play compared to 40k.
So, these troopers go against each other in a massive battle...well, the modern day soldier just wouldn't be ready for the kind of warfare that the IG would unleash. Even combat veterans wouldn't be prepared for the kinds of massive artillery bombardments/duels, the massed armored charges, or the infantry charges. I'd wager significant money that they would break and fall back. They just aren't ready to fight the kind of war the Imperial Guard could unleash. Hell, I'd put more money on the 1944/45 Wehrmacht Heer and Red Army to stand against the IG. They at least have experience with that kind of warfare.
Finally, I'd also like to point out that as far as armored warfare goes? I ahve a few points to make.
1) We have no idea what that armor is made out of, admantium in and of itself is likely stronger than steel, and we have no idea is it's just a giant wall of admantium, or a multilayered composite armor or what. Saying a HEAT shell will blast right through it isn't a fair comparison. Sure a HEAT shell would go through 200 mm of steel...but a Leman Russ isn't armored with steel.
2) Combat experience. When was the last time tanks faced tanks in a real battle? Don't say the Gulf War, because the Gulf War wasn't a tank battle...the Iraqi T-72s were of such low quality, armed with shells of such low quality thant it's nigh impossible to even consider it 'real'. NOt to mention the idiocity of digging them in in the open desert....=shakes head= But yes, the last real tank battles? We probably haven't seen real tank battles since the Korean War. NO tanker in service today likely has actual combat experience. To be honest, it's become a problem with American tankers that they think of themselves as invincible thanks to the Gulf War. And trust me, the last thing you want your tank crews to be feeling is invincible.
Your average Leman Russ crew? They've probably seen some battle, and likely have fought enemy vehicles equal to them before. They know full well they aren't invulnerable, and that there's a lot of dangers to them out there. In a one to one battle between a Leman Russ and an Abrams/Challenger II/T-90? I'd go with the real world tank. But in an actual tank clash? I'd side with the EMperor's armored regiments.
Laodamia wrote:
And I still think our air support loses to the imperial navy wings. Really hard.
^^Fixed^^
I didn't say terra-bound imperial navy. . .
I said navy wings! I carefully excluded imperial battleships from my point! I meant thunderbolts/lightnings against F22 and the like. And in this kind of airdcraft encounter, we bust imperial aircrafts reaaally hard. But this is just my point of view.
Now, if you want to talk about the big-heavy-massive guns of the imperial navy, no imperial warship would be able to shoot down one of our planes in flight. Too small, too fast. The guns of imperial cruisers and battleships are designed to obliterate other cruisers and battleships. They are ridiculously powerful, but not very accurate. Maybe something smaller and specially designed for anti-aircraft roles (a frigate maybe?) would do the trick though. What an imperial battleship (like your nice looking Retribution-class battleship ) could do though, is orbital-bomb our air bases. Bomb the base, the country, bomb even the continent, just to be safe...
Well, a Lightingin could outrun an F-22, and would most likely be the ones the Imperium sent to engage Earth aircraft in atmosphere. Let's not forget that if the Imperial aircraft get too outmatched, they can just choose to flee into orbit. No aircraft could follow them up there.
And, we know that things like the Manticore can carry SAMs, it's not a stretch of the imagination to believe that Imperial aircraft can carry some form of air to air weaponry. Not to mention, an Imperial airfcraft actually has armor. It might even be able to stand up to a ATA missile detonation....remember, missiles don't kill by 'hitting' their taget. They kill by detonating near their target, and filling the air with shrapnel. Shrapnel is something an Imperial aircraft might be good at resisting.
Also, we saw in Vietnam that OTH missile combat isn't exactly the best thing to do. Mig-17s were more than capable of engaging F-4s in close range dogfights, and the F-4s tended to come out on the bottom.
I guess I should also question those saying the IG has horried AtA defense. As far as I can tell, Imperial AtA is based around flak, and only flak. When in reality, Imperial AtA is based around a combination of anti-air Manticores and Hydras, just like how the Rusian Army has both missile armed vehicles for antiair warfare, and gun armed vehicles.
IG would win. Lasguns don't do much to Astartes, but among humans is one badass weapon. Read Gaunt's Ghosts, lol, the lasgun is way more than a laser pen.
ChrisWWII wrote:Well, a Lightingin could outrun an F-22, and would most likely be the ones the Imperium sent to engage Earth aircraft in atmosphere. Let's not forget that if the Imperial aircraft get too outmatched, they can just choose to flee into orbit. No aircraft could follow them up there.
IIRC, lightnings and thunderbolts are not capable of space flights. They are only atmospheric fighters. For space battles, the IoM uses Fury fighters and Starhawk bombers, which are a LOT bigger than lightnings. They are specifically designed for space battles. I imagine their atmospheric performances are a bit like those of a modern world space shuttle: rubbish.
Good point with the manticores and the IoM triple A defenses, though.
We saw in Gaunt's Ghosts that Imperial battleships make use of Lightnings as CAP. So, yes, Lightinings and Thunderbolts are desinged for combat in atmosphere, and aren't optimized for space combat like the Fury fighters. HOWEVER, the Lightning and Thunderbolt can operate in space. They'll likely be out manuvered and performed by true void fighters, but they'll be able to go into space.
This all depends on the composition of those hundred guys. If you are talking 100 bog-standard lasgun armed troops vs 100 rifle armed troops then yeah, there is probably no major advantage either way.
If you make those 100 guys a fairly standard IG troops list though, against 100 modern troops organised as a fighting force then imho things would start to go badly for the modern troops. Psyker squads, ogryns, ratlings, flamers, plasma guns, etc etc and you start to have a noticeable advantage for the IG.
ChrisWWII wrote:Well, a Lightingin could outrun an F-22, and would most likely be the ones the Imperium sent to engage Earth aircraft in atmosphere. Let's not forget that if the Imperial aircraft get too outmatched, they can just choose to flee into orbit. No aircraft could follow them up there.
Which, combined with their lascannons, would instantly swat any modern fighter out of the sky.
One interesting thing that I have no clue about: Is there any mention in fluff about (anti-radar) stealth technology on Imperial craft? How do we even know that our missiles can "see" them?
I don't think the Imperium cares about stealth. The battleships with kilometers high eagles made out of gold, and the 100 meter tall walking battle cathedrals of doom kinda make me doubt the Imperium's appreciation of 'stealth'.
ChrisWWII wrote:I don't think the Imperium cares about stealth. The battleships with kilometers high eagles made out of gold, and the 100 meter tall walking battle cathedrals of doom kinda make me doubt the Imperium's appreciation of 'stealth'.
They have stealth space fighters.It was used to deploy an Inquisitor and his attendants to the surface of some world(I think that it appears in Double Eagle).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ChrisWWII wrote:*snip*
Sadly IG would stomp modern day army,as you see Flak armor stops any modern weapon bullets in fluff quite easily.
Then we have the fact how lasguns are superior to modern day weaponry.
Another point that I have to bring up (and I'm surprised no one else HAS) is the psychology of the war. Your average Guardsman has been indocrtinated since birth to know that he is just another piece of canon fodder, he is going to die, and the best he can do is make his death worthwhile. He likely has some combat experience under his belt, and any Veterans would definitely have experience facing horrors unkown to the modern battlefield.
You assume these are good things.
The evidence at our disposal is that cannon fodder forces can stand and die, but their ability to manoeuvre and fight well is poor compared to properly trained troops.
Also, exposure to horrors does not inoculate the human mind, it weakens it.
The evidence at our disposal is that cannon fodder forces can stand and die, but their ability to manoeuvre and fight well is poor compared to properly trained troops.
Also, exposure to horrors does not inoculate the human mind, it weakens it.
This is indeed true. I am assuming that these are good things, but a Guardsman is going to do what he's ordered even if it's suicidal, and with an army like the Imperial Guard, that's what you want. Like I said, the IG are dogmatic, but they aren't idiots. In all honesty, the Imperial Guard seems to have a very similar build to Soviet style forces, especially with its obsession with top-down control, with this style, canon fodder forces who are obedient are the best to have. You don't want troops who go on their own initiative and screw up high command's plans. To be honest, a company versus a company isn't really a good measure of an IG force. In this smaller scale, of course the Western style army will win. However, in a larger scale (all else being equal), you're much more likely to see the centralized army pull ahead.
And while it's true that exposuire to horror weakens that mind, I can't help but feel that the constant exposure to eldritch abominations the Guard goes through would be enough to steel them against most things. And if that fails? Commissars do exist for a reason...
ChrisWWII wrote:
This is indeed true. I am assuming that these are good things, but a Guardsman is going to do what he's ordered even if it's suicidal, and with an army like the Imperial Guard, that's what you want. Like I said, the IG are dogmatic, but they aren't idiots.
In the vaster majority of fluff, the squad-level organization/doctrine of IG seems no worse than modern military. Very rarely do you actually see mass frontal assaults against enemy prepared defenses except when support is abundant or numerical superiority overwhelming.
One thing you are forgetting is that if an Ig force showed up on earth facing the U.S. we probably wont just use 100 soldiers, and modern diterrants (missile strikes, the BIG BOY, stealth bombers, etc) seem far more advanced than what is represented in the game/fluff.
Like I said, the IG are dogmatic. If they have the manpower and support available they will throw men into the meat grinder until the meat grinder clogs up. If the situation calls for something else, they'll use a different strategy or plan. In this sense, they are very flexible. However, they are predictable as well.
Captain Shrike wrote:One thing you are forgetting is that if an Ig force showed up on earth facing the U.S. we probably wont just use 100 soldiers, and modern diterrants (missile strikes, the BIG BOY, stealth bombers, etc) seem far more advanced than what is represented in the game/fluff.
No you've missed the point of my thread we arguing who is better a modern soldier or an IG
The Imperial Guard are primarily drawn from the best of Planetary Defense Forces, who could probably be considered roughly equivalent to a modern soldier from a first world country. They then receive further training, and are kitted out with a more advanced version of modern body armor and a perfectly accurate weapon that both strikes instantly and is capable of blasting molten holes in solid rock. At this point, they're expected to be able to take entire planets held and fortified by hundreds of thousands to millions of mutants or cultists, who are armed with weapons and armor roughly equivalent to modern ones, with only a few tens of thousands of soldiers.
I think it's safe to say that man for man, the Guard is a more elite, better equipped force than any modern army.
Game ranges are adapted for play on a 6x4 table with models large enough to have a good degree of detail. If we look for higher resolution numbers (from the Dark Heresy rulebook), we find that lasguns have a maximum range of about 400m, while autoguns have a maximum range of about 360m. Both longlases and hunting rifles have a maximum range of about 600m. This is probably a case of Did Not Do the Research, though, if they meant the the autogun to roughly represent the M-16 it's visually based on, so we can assume the lasgun is meant to have a range slightly longer than that of a modern assault rifle. Damage is... identical, but Dark Heresy's damage system seems pretty wonky overall, with trivial differences between arrows, muskets, pistols, rifles, shotguns, and bolters.
Captain Shrike wrote:One thing you are forgetting is that if an Ig force showed up on earth facing the U.S. we probably wont just use 100 soldiers, and modern diterrants (missile strikes, the BIG BOY, stealth bombers, etc) seem far more advanced than what is represented in the game/fluff.
Are you being serious or are you just trolling? How anyone could argue that modern-day tech is "more advanced" than the tech of the IG is beyond me. Deathstrike Missiles ARE "big boys" in their NORMAL configuration, then there's the Vortex payloads etc. As for missile strikes, I give you... the Cyclonic Torpedo, magna-melta warhead!
But really, what on EARTH do you think stealth bombers would do to the IG? Their BEST case scenario is they get all their bombs away, get shot down and crash into something useful. Nuclear missiles would just prompt the IG to go back to orbit and laugh at us as they turn all life on Earth to cinders.
In the hypothetical 100 vs. 100 scenario the IG would probably prevail, as other posters have pointed out in the thread. Flak Armour stops our bullets, lasguns shoots holes through stone. Not to mention autocannons, heavy bolters, mortars, anti-personell missile launchers and lascannons.
I think allot have been understating the ability of a Guardsman especially the tech available to him based purely on th characteristics of a TT game where cool is the rule and each force is design to follow deliberately different principles.
Having said that I always use the following assumption when trying to compare 40k weapons to real world [I know, I know ] situations. Heavy Stubbers/Bolters [S4] are the equivalent of .50 cal weaponry we have today in both fluff and real world effect. So a S5 weapon would be a step up from that, say real world 20mm, S6 would be the equivalent of larger cannon, S7-10 the equivalent of anything from a light AT missile up to 150mm shells.
Now with this in mind I see the 100 Imperial Guards [IG] vs 100 US riflemen [GI] as follows;
Basic Kit: IG have tech that has been advanced many millennia from now, that would mean better weapons and armour than any modern force could muster, that being said basic arms would be fairly similar in effect. With my above assumption in mind the integral MGs and SAW that the GI's possess would increase their firepower over the IG possibly cancelled out by the Guardsman’s greater ammo capacity per man over extended fire fights (assuming at least 60 rounds per clip vs 30 of the GI). This sort of cancelling each other out I feel that IG body armour would give an edge in this department.
Support weaponry: An IG platoon packs integral heavy weaponry far in excess of the modern troops. So using KK's loadout (and assuming that some company level assets are available) in this section the GI's have underslung Grenade Launchers [S6], AT missiles [S7-8], a smattering of mortars and .50 cals [S4] and maybe a GMGs [S6] - impressive stuff by any standard.
Now the IG have a mix of support weaponry mostly GLs and a mix of Melta/Plasma. In addition a mix of many Mortars, AutoCannons, H Bolters and Missile Launchers. Now using my assumption the IG are packing allot of what would be considered vehicle size/strength weapons at an infantry level. This should be a devastating advantage to the IG.
Skill: An unaugmented IG trooper will be as well trained as any first rate modern soldier. Ignoring the fact that 38000 years may have taught armies a thing or two I would suggest that they are much the same. Also don't forget that the Imperial Tithe sets standards for IG regiments and woe betide the Imperial Commander that does not comply.
Morale: Well trained and well armed, confident in his/her skill and leaders a GI will stand up as well as a Guardsman I would imagine, but the guardsman will have a few other things on his side; 1) faith in the God-emperor - these are fanatics in a very real sense (they hate everything, non believers are anathema) 2) The commissariat is there to fill any gaps in each mans fervour with a bolt round if necessary.
Finally not being a Meany like the rest of you I have given our combatants cover. This being the case static positions and sustained/support fire comes to the fore. Now this being the case the IG will start to gain the upper hand and using the cover available close on the enemy. The GIs being of sufficient quality will hold their position despite being suppressed and a CQB will ensue.
This is where the IG will win the fight and not I believe because of H2h or anything as dangerous as that but because the IG will use the one support weapon that I have not listed and that is Terror weapon No.1 - the Flamer.
On seeing their mates set on fire for the first time the GIs will surrender en-masse for fear of the same or fall back. Think Gerry vs the Crocodile in WW2.
So Imperial Guard wins this week, tune in next week for Horus vs. Stalin!
I think the key here is that in terms of quality, the range of Imperial guarsman is about as wide as the range of modern soldiers, in terms of training, psychology, iniative, etc.
Quality of infantry can vary widely, even within a single army in a single theater. Look at the battle of Berlin, on both sides. You had elite SS, old men and boys, russian peasant conscripts, and battle hardened Red Army veterans. Taking 100 soldiers from eithe of those four groups would result in extremely divergent results.
Given the variables, the one constant is that hte IG trooper will have better body armor and a more reliable, and higher powered rifle that has far more "ammunition."
If comparing a US rifle company to a Cadian company, the GIs will have more suppression fire weapons (SAWs, light underslung grenade launchers) while the IG will have more powerful heavy and specials (heavy bolters and grenade launchers) If you listen to the fluff, it's possible that IG don't issue stubbers and SAWs to line squads because the lasgun does the job. Even space marines don't wade into lasgun volly fire in the fluff.
The factor that nobody has mentioned that I think would be important isn't tactical initiative (which I think modern militaries are stronger at in general) but tactical flexibility. IG troopers are trained to fight across the galaxy against dozens of species. Modern militaries are trained to fight a handful of types of enemies. I think that hte IG could adapt to fighting GIs quicker and more readily than GIs could adapt to facing IG. I'd favor our chances in the long run, as I think we could adapt quicker, but the IG already have a playbook for fighting most enemies, while the GIs will be surprised.
As others have mentioned, it would probably depend on the soldiers in the IG, for example Cadians or Vostroyans. Different soldiers would show different results. And even if you talk about standard issue, I am sure almost every guard unit has something of standard issue, perhaps a different model of lasgun, or like Camo-cloaks of the Tanith.
I would think it would really be very hard to judge. If you take the best, most well trained and equiped modern soldiers and the best, most well trained and equiped Guard unit and if best for Guard means Cadian shock troops or better (?), then i think Guard would win. It is also mostly about luck, lucky shot to the head perhaps?
Much as I say, I wouldnt try to pit them against each other due to the limitless possibilities that can occur in warfare. Everything that can happen to one side can happen to another. Just role a die.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The Imperial Guard are primarily drawn from the best of Planetary Defense Forces, who could probably be considered roughly equivalent to a modern soldier from a first world country. They then receive further training, and are kitted out with a more advanced version of modern body armor and a perfectly accurate weapon that both strikes instantly and is capable of blasting molten holes in solid rock. At this point, they're expected to be able to take entire planets held and fortified by hundreds of thousands to millions of mutants or cultists, who are armed with weapons and armor roughly equivalent to modern ones, with only a few tens of thousands of soldiers.
I think it's safe to say that man for man, the Guard is a more elite, better equipped force than any modern army.
.
How do you make that out?
The best regiments such as Cadians and Mordians, are certainly elite, but the rest of them are the sweepings of the gaols, asylums and political prisons, shipped out to fill an Imperial quota by getting rid of some dross.
Their equipment and training is so basic that it's a step up to carry a plasma gun, a weapon which kills one in six operators. Their training is so minimal that they rely totally on rigid obedience to orders for their tactics, and morale is so low that they can only be driven into battle by the threat of instant death from their own superiors.
Thanks to all this, despite being spearheaded by nine-feet-tall supermen, advancing behind a curtain of fire thrown up by astonishing artillery and overwhelming orbital support, they struggle to overcome starving, disorganised civilian cultists who have no training and are armed only with captured and improvised weapons.
Their commanders care nothing for their lives, and will happily order them to jump into ditches and fill them with their broken bodies to facilitate the passage of holy, irreplaceable tanks. A single Baneblade is worth more than divisions of Guard.
I think it's safe to say that man for man, the Guard is a desperate, demoralised and incompetent force compared to any modern army.
Thunder555 wrote:I'd say that soldiers are soldiers even in future, so it would be about the equipment. Lasgun vs moder rifle.. I'd say lasgun wins. If it didn't, why the hell would they use them after 40000 years?
IG armour can give some protecting from genestealers too (with 6's ) and they can punch through tanks. I doubt modern armours can offer much protection from knives without hindering your movements.
So yeah.. IG wins.
The majority of cases where tithing is mentioned have them drawn from the local PDF. A few tens of thousands of Guard is portrayed as being able to take entire planets from an entrenched enemy that vastly outnumbers them, and which is also generally portrayed as being armed and armored with equipment comparable to modern military equipment.
How many soldiers do we have fighting against a disorganized enemy armed with antique weapons and no armor? How many more did the Soviets send against those same people (who were armed even worse until we gave them the (now antique) weapons they're currently using against us), with even worse results? A lot more than a few tens of thousands, against an enemy that's far less numerous than what you'd expect from an entire planet given over to Chaos.
Quite frankly it boils down to who has the better equipment if you go by the 100 VS 100 in an open field battle. In that case IG wins, as the Lasgun, while inferior by 40k standards, is quite powerful compared to any modern equivallent. Their basic armor, Flak Armor, takes a RPG round to penetrate (most armor we have wont survive most assault rifle rounds, let alone an explosion made by a rifle-round-like RPG). Yes they might charge head-first into battle, but quite honestly, they can feasably do that with their equipment.
If it's a military-wide equipment comparison, then IG still wins. Try having any tank face up to a column of Leman Russ MTBs Not only are the things so damn manourverable but it can run on anything from diesel to wood. This means that if you cut off logistics to the tank, it's not likely going to stop them until quite some time afterwards (when the crew starves to death, assuming they dont know how to forage or raid for food). Air support? The IG have Orbital Support. Also, most tanks in 40k takes a melta round to reliably destroy, which is basically a fusion bomb. A fission meltdown is considered a disaster, so being hit by a fusion one will no doubt destroy any morale left in the opposing troops, not to mention turn the unfortunate target into a pool of smoldering metal.
The best regiments such as Cadians and Mordians, are certainly elite, but the rest of them are the sweepings of the gaols, asylums and political prisons, shipped out to fill an Imperial quota by getting rid of some dross.
Page 8 of the IG Codex says that the elite units of the planet are the ones sent in the yearly tithe to the Imperium, and it's not uncommon for competitions to be fought over the 'reward' of being promoted to the Guard. So, if the Earth were to be part of the Imperium, we'd send them the SAS, Delta FOrce, etc. to joing the IG, while the basic military force would be retained as the local PDF.
Their equipment and training is so basic that it's a step up to carry a plasma gun, a weapon which kills one in six operators. Their training is so minimal that they rely totally on rigid obedience to orders for their tactics, and morale is so low that they can only be driven into battle by the threat of instant death from their own superiors.
Okay, now you're just falling down to plain flanderization of the Imperial Guard. Their basic equipment, the lasgun is actually a godsend when it comes to massing large armies. It's light, easy to maintain and repair, and it has a much smaller logistics train. It's the space AK-47 turned up to 11. I wouldn't call it an 'upgrade' to get a plasma gun, because a plasma gun has none of this. It's heavy, hard to maintain, and no doubt has a larger logistics train.
And, it is not exactly EASY to train an army into the kind of shape where it obeys orders without question. The human instinct when facing danger is basic fight or flight, the amount of training to get them to supress that instinct and follow their superiors orders without question should not be overestimated. More importantly, Imperial Guard morale tends to not be low, unless it is in a situation when even a modern army would have low morale...from what we've seen, they're willing to continue fighting even in the worst of situations. They may be scared, but they will stick to the line and fire their lasguns to the end.
Thanks to all this, despite being spearheaded by nine-feet-tall supermen, advancing behind a curtain of fire thrown up by astonishing artillery and overwhelming orbital support, they struggle to overcome starving, disorganised civilian cultists who have no training and are armed only with captured and improvised weapons.
Ummm...the only time we see them fail to overcome such a force is when such a force outnumbers them immensely. I can't recall a single fluff instance when an Imperial Guard army on the advance was stopped dead in its tracks by such a force. If you're referring to Vraks, well that hardly counts! Vraks had such deep and impenentrable defenses that even an modern army would be hard pressed to chew through. And, we also have to note that the Imperial Guard manages to hold bank enemies far far worse than Chaos cultists. The Imperial Guard defeat planetary PDFs, Ork invasions, Eldar raids, etc. etc.
Their commanders care nothing for their lives, and will happily order them to jump into ditches and fill them with their broken bodies to facilitate the passage of holy, irreplaceable tanks. A single Baneblade is worth more than divisions of Guard.
One of the quotes from 'Murphy's Laws of War' is that 'If it's stupid, but it works then it ain't stupid,' and for the Imperium? Treating your Guardsmen this way works. It's been stressed again and again that the Imperium has manpower in a nigh unlimited supply, while things like Baneblades are rare and valuable. Now, you have two options...you can spend your nigh limitless currency, or you can spend your rare, almost unreplacable currency. Each will have the same effect....I don't know about you but I'd spend th currency I have in nigh unlimited amounts first.
It may seem abhorrent to our society to think that a machine could be worth its weight in human lives, but we have to stress: the Imperium is not our society. The Imperium is a society where life is cheap, and everyone knows it. An individuals life is a minor detail, the survival of a Baneblade? That might actually be important.
I think it's safe to say that man for man, the Guard is a desperate, demoralised and incompetent force compared to any modern army.
I'd say man for man, the Imperial Guardsman would outfight a modern soldier. THe Guardsman has better armor, and better weaponry. I feel like I must stress this again, the IG are dogmatic, but dogmatic does not equal incompetent. The kind of centralized command strucuture of the Guard works extremely well with an army like the Guard when you have lots of men who aren't trained to the highest quality.
If we look at most situations, the average Imperial Guardsman will face death, and will tend to hold his nerve. He will stand and fight. His nerve may crack later, but we've seen Guardsmen launch themselves into suicidal attacks time and time again. You can never underestimate the value of fanaticism.
@Killkrazy: If we are viewing the Modern Day Army as the fairly competent US Military, it's only fair to compare them with an equally competent IG Regiment.
If you are looking at the dregs of IG regiments (and they certainly exist in numbers ) then they should be compared to whatever would constitute the dregs of Modern Militaries.
sourclams wrote:I think the 'leadership' factor is getting a bit underplayed here. I don't mean leadership in terms of who's got better sergeants, etc, but rather in terms of 'we lost 8/10 men and we're still charging with bayonets fixed'.
It's been a long, long time since two militaries of roughly equivalent technology level faced each other in open combat. By our standards, IG infantry are probably very near to fearless. Losses that we'd consider a horrific disaster (30%+) are probably within IG acceptable tolerances.
For 100 guys on each side, facing across an open field, with roughly equivalent kit, I have to think that IG win through willingness to lose more bodies.
This is actually an advantage to us, wars are won on logistics, a fighting force that minimizes casualties just flat out lasts longer.
Mordoskul wrote:In pure crunch terms, modern military would kick the crap out of the Imperial Guard. Autogun beats lasgun every time.
Wrong on several counts.
1) The lasgun is more powerful than the autogun, the lasgun has shown the ability to blast limbs off human beings. It is at least equal to autoguns in terms of damage, and more than likely more powerful than the lasgun.
2) Logistics. The lasgun is easy to repair, easy to build, and easy to maintain, and even easier to resupply. An autogun requires constant supplying of bullets to rearm, while a lasgun can just as easily be recharged from solar power or a small fire.
3) Irrelevant. In war, small arms fire is not the big killer. The big killer is usually artillery, or heavy crew operated weapons.
More importantly, than the weapon itself are the people carrying them. Guardsmen have more experience in battle, even the greenest Guardsman is hardened just by the type of life he has had to live to get to this point. His armor has a decent chance of stopping shrapnel or small arms fire, and he will follow orders to the death.
The Imperial Guard won't just curbstomp a modern military, but the Imperial Guard WILL come out victorious.
sourclams wrote:I think the 'leadership' factor is getting a bit underplayed here. I don't mean leadership in terms of who's got better sergeants, etc, but rather in terms of 'we lost 8/10 men and we're still charging with bayonets fixed'.
It's been a long, long time since two militaries of roughly equivalent technology level faced each other in open combat. By our standards, IG infantry are probably very near to fearless. Losses that we'd consider a horrific disaster (30%+) are probably within IG acceptable tolerances.
For 100 guys on each side, facing across an open field, with roughly equivalent kit, I have to think that IG win through willingness to lose more bodies.
This is actually an advantage to us, wars are won on logistics, a fighting force that minimizes casualties just flat out lasts longer.
Unless the one with that doesn't care about casualties has a reason for not caring, like outnumbering you 100:1
Requia wrote:Equal numbers where mentioned by the person I quoted. Also, factor in the training cost for that 100 to 1.
Is probably less that the cost of us training our one. Training for an Imperial Guardsman is basic and cheap. Follow your orders, here's how to fire and take care of your lasgun, here's some range practice, done! Next please. Compare that to cost of arming and equipping a US Army soldier. More importantly...the Imperium doesn't CARE about cost, so it's moot. The only thing the Imperium cares about is whether or not they won in the end.
NOt to mention, your post about how wars are won and lost on logistics can only apply on a larger scale, and in any larger scale the IG would outnumber the human defenders of Earth. In any scale where it'd be an equal fight, logistics wouldn't be a concern.
Difference being, the Soviet soldiers lost because the political will keeping them there broke. That will not happen to the Imperial Guard. They will stay here, and will keep sending more ment until they win.
Captain Shrike wrote:One thing you are forgetting is that if an Ig force showed up on earth facing the U.S. we probably wont just use 100 soldiers, and modern diterrants (missile strikes, the BIG BOY, stealth bombers, etc) seem far more advanced than what is represented in the game/fluff.
Are you being serious or are you just trolling? How anyone could argue that modern-day tech is "more advanced" than the tech of the IG is beyond me. Deathstrike Missiles ARE "big boys" in their NORMAL configuration, then there's the Vortex payloads etc. As for missile strikes, I give you... the Cyclonic Torpedo, magna-melta warhead!
But really, what on EARTH do you think stealth bombers would do to the IG? Their BEST case scenario is they get all their bombs away, get shot down and crash into something useful. Nuclear missiles would just prompt the IG to go back to orbit and laugh at us as they turn all life on Earth to cinders.
In the hypothetical 100 vs. 100 scenario the IG would probably prevail, as other posters have pointed out in the thread. Flak Armour stops our bullets, lasguns shoots holes through stone. Not to mention autocannons, heavy bolters, mortars, anti-personell missile launchers and lascannons.
To be fair, in both cases they steamrolled any formal resistance, but got bogged down in dealing with untrained, poorly equipped irregulars who could vanish without a trace into the mountains. The Imperium wouldn't have that problem, as they'd have long since reduced the entire country to a blasted, flattened wasteland from orbit, or annihilated the population (which the soviets tried to do...) and occupied the territory for the resources.
Now this point comes to me, Modern militaries seem to be trained as elite fighting forces that specialise in lightning strikes and winning the war by capturing key positions, rather than steamroll an entire area. If this is true, the Imperial Guard do not specialise in these kinds of operations, but rather thier 9 feet tall, non-human brethren. But thats beside the point.
I still think the IG would win, it is probably the army that has more battle experience that would prevail when it comes to similiar strengthed weapons in a controlled environment.
Conservationist wrote:Now this point comes to me, Modern militaries seem to be trained as elite fighting forces that specialise in lightning strikes and winning the war by capturing key positions, rather than steamroll an entire area. If this is true, the Imperial Guard do not specialise in these kinds of operations, but rather thier 9 feet tall, non-human brethren. But thats beside the point.
I think you've seriously mixed up the US Marines with the US Military.
I still think the IG would win, it is probably the army that has more battle experience that would prevail when it comes to similiar strengthed weapons in a controlled environment.
With IG you don't know. We could be talking about the hardbitten veterans of scores of battlefields, men who have encountered every evil feth in the 40k galaxy and walked over them...or we could be talking about the greenies from 15 hours.
Emperors Faithful wrote:@Killkrazy: If we are viewing the Modern Day Army as the fairly competent US Military, it's only fair to compare them with an equally competent IG Regiment.
If you are looking at the dregs of IG regiments (and they certainly exist in numbers ) then they should be compared to whatever would constitute the dregs of Modern Militaries.
On the subject of Flak Armour being so good: sure, if a round actually hits the armour it may be stopped. However Flak Armour only covers the torso (and not completely, at that), a helmet for the head, and shoulder, knee and elbow pads. Remember that a kill is not necessary (nor always preferred) to take a soldier out of the fight.
ChrisWWII wrote:And, it is not exactly EASY to train an army into the kind of shape where it obeys orders without question. The human instinct when facing danger is basic fight or flight, the amount of training to get them to supress that instinct and follow their superiors orders without question should not be overestimated. More importantly, Imperial Guard morale tends to not be low, unless it is in a situation when even a modern army would have low morale...from what we've seen, they're willing to continue fighting even in the worst of situations. They may be scared, but they will stick to the line and fire their lasguns to the end.
ChrisWWII wrote:
Requia wrote:Equal numbers where mentioned by the person I quoted. Also, factor in the training cost for that 100 to 1.
Is probably less that the cost of us training our one. Training for an Imperial Guardsman is basic and cheap. Follow your orders, here's how to fire and take care of your lasgun, here's some range practice, done! Next please.
Chris, you seem to be contradicting yourself there: first you say it takes a lot of effort (and therefore time and money) to train to blindly obey orders, then apparently it's boot-camp-while-u-wait.
100 vs. 100 I think a well-trained modern military would come out on top - IG have to stay in circa-10' unit coherency at all times, otherwise they freak out and don't know what to do; modern soldiers are able to act cohesively at greater distances and act independently if required. And yes, IG blindly obey orders - so snipers take out their officers, then there's no orders being issued - "crap sarge, what do we do now?" "Er...."
Equipment-wise: there's been a big swing to unmanned aerial vehicles in recent years, and UGVs have seen some action with a likelihood of more use in the next few years. The US could theoretically destroy the IG without ever presenting a human target to them.
Emperors Faithful wrote:@Killkrazy: If we are viewing the Modern Day Army as the fairly competent US Military, it's only fair to compare them with an equally competent IG Regiment.
If you are looking at the dregs of IG regiments (and they certainly exist in numbers ) then they should be compared to whatever would constitute the dregs of Modern Militaries.
Oh indeed, and that's what I did.
You still haven't responded to my concern regarding the equal range of Assualt rifles and Lasguns.
I don't understand why the OP has restricted this to 100 men. Might as well make it 10...or 1. There's no real way to discern what the outcome will be on equal grounds between equally human foes. If this was Imperial Campaign vs Modern Earth, the discussion would be more exciting. It's not like the OP has even gone with a Military force vs IG regiment/company, he's just picked a random number (100) and gone with it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ulver wrote:Equipment-wise: there's been a big swing to unmanned aerial vehicles in recent years, and UGVs have seen some action with a likelihood of more use in the next few years. The US could theoretically destroy the IG without ever presenting a human target to them.
Ulver wrote:On the subject of Flak Armour being so good: sure, if a round actually hits the armour it may be stopped. However Flak Armour only covers the torso (and not completely, at that), a helmet for the head, and shoulder, knee and elbow pads. Remember that a kill is not necessary (nor always preferred) to take a soldier out of the fight.
Except modern soldiers are trained to aim for the center of mass in the torso, and wounds from artillerry tend to be to the head. NOt to mention it's only Cadians who have that kind of armor. Valhallans have a full flak coat going for them.
Chris, you seem to be contradicting yourself there: first you say it takes a lot of effort (and therefore time and money) to train to blindly obey orders, then apparently it's boot-camp-while-u-wait.
It does take a lot of training to be able to blindly obey orders, but it's also cheaper than the equivalent training of modern day soldiers.
100 vs. 100 I think a well-trained modern military would come out on top - IG have to stay in circa-10' unit coherency at all times, otherwise they freak out and don't know what to do; modern soldiers are able to act cohesively at greater distances and act independently if required. And yes, IG blindly obey orders - so snipers take out their officers, then there's no orders being issued - "crap sarge, what do we do now?" "Er...."
Where the hell did that come from? 10' unit coherency? Where did you here that? ANd besides, the Imperial Guard have a contingency plan in case the officers die. 'Keep moving forward!' in most cases, and if not 'Hold the position!'. An IG army may be halted temporarily through such tactics, but it won't be stopped.
Equipment-wise: there's been a big swing to unmanned aerial vehicles in recent years, and UGVs have seen some action with a likelihood of more use in the next few years. The US could theoretically destroy the IG without ever presenting a human target to them.
Well, UAVs would be easy enough to swat from the sky with Hydras. I'd much rather face 1000 Predator Drones with Hydras than 20 F-22s with the best SAM launcher anyones ever built. Besides, an unmanned battlefield? Seriously? There are several things wrong with this.
1) You NEED foot grunts. I don't care how advanced your weapons are, or how fancy your unmanned vehicles are, you can not fight a ground war without infantry.
2) Artillery. Something the Imperial Guard is in love with, and more than willing to use indiscriminantly. Your fancy UAVs and UGVs have to be commanded from somewhere, and that somewhere will easily be in range of the big guns.
3) Since when has the Imperial Navy cared about civillian targets or collateral damage? If they needed to, a nice wing of Marauder bombers could be dropping from orbit over any major city they want, and unleash carpet bombing that hasn't been seen since the Second World War. Just because you have limited personell on the battlefield doesn't mean your population is safe.
Captain Shrike wrote:One thing you are forgetting is that if an Ig force showed up on earth facing the U.S. we probably wont just use 100 soldiers, and modern diterrants (missile strikes, the BIG BOY, stealth bombers, etc) seem far more advanced than what is represented in the game/fluff.
Text
I was kinda being sarcastic.......
Just how do you figure that anyone would know that you were being sarcastic? There's no indication of sarcasm anywhere in that post!
I do believe the fluff says that the standard vox caster has an intercontinental range, not to mention the Imperium has decently reliable FTL interstellar communication (something we lack). I seriously doubt that the Imperium's radios are somehow less advanced than current Earth ones. The only communication advantage we might have would be in the electronic warfare front, but even that wouldn't be as effective against the Imperium as it would against another human enemy.
Fafnir wrote:Well, it'd be logical to assume that lasguns are lighter, easier to aim (by virtue of being lighter), and stronger than your average military rifle (at full power, a lasgun can blow limbs off). They're also much more accurate, by virtue of being laser weaponry.
Armour for the average gaurdsman is probably somewhat better than modern military armour. Either stronger or lighter, or a combination of both.
That's what I say but he wants to know in more detail why for example how the lasgun works and what flak ar
Our is made of
Don't know about other country's armor plates, but ours is made of a ceramic. It can defeat up to three 7.62x39 (ak rounds) in the same spot. Our helmets are not meant to stop bullets, but deflect them. Obviously this would stand no chance against lasguns. However, I think IG are just issued flak armor. Flak vests are just light kevlar paddings to defeat small caliber rounds, like handgun rounds. But I seriously doubt their flak armor is similar to the flak armor used by our soldiers in Nam. So I'd venture to say their armor may be like Dragon Skin which is an experimental body armor that is light weight and uses disks to displace the impact of a round.
With that being said, if I used a M14 against a guardsman, he'd go down for sure. I've shot mine at steel plates and even the cheapest Russian bi-metal rounds punch straight through it.
From what I can see, the IG's main strategy is "Throw bodies at it!!" The US Infantry standard for engagements is 3 of us to 1 of them. Especially us in the 82nd, we don't take unnecessary risks.
The Imperium is more than capable of strategic bombing. It would be more advantageous for a wing of Marauder bombers to bomb specific targets like factories and military bases than civilian populations.
The Imperium would be based in orbit and although this seems like an impossible target, Earth could just launch its nukes towards it. Doing this would take longer to go through all the legislation and legal procedures than the Imperium to order a bombing run.
well just my opinion would be that a modern military force of 100 soldiers fighting a 100 Imperial guard would be roughly a company vs. company strenth engagement for purposes of support equipment and gear.
That being said the IG would have acess to artillery support from the master of ordnance ( esentially a 155 artillery tube ) and 3 heavy weapon squads (for sake of discussion one anti-personal, one anti- tank and a mortor squad), with six line squads and command squads for each of three platoons it would come to arround 100 troops with inclusion of a special weapon team or two.
And a average light infantry company of the U.S. Army is remakably simular to the above formation, with a few exceptions, artillery support is available on a squad/platoon level and far more versitile than represented in the rules and fluff of the 40kIG, and since the simple armor of orcs is sufficent to have a chance to stop las-guns I would be likely to believe that our top of the line armor would at least be equal to a 6+ save .
But the big decider would be time of battle if its a daytime battle it would be a toss up, with my money leaning towards the modern earth army due to its support assets and flexible command structure.
If fought at night the modern earth troops would dominate the IG as per codex, since they have no night vision upgrades or wargear options ( I am sure somebody will cite a novel or story where they did but i am merely going off the codex.) Since every American soldier is equiped with a NODS system that is quite efficent for night operations with minimal decrease in efficency.
The only reason I chimed in on this is I felt i could contribute a semi-informed opinion on the combat abilites of a modern light infantry company since I have served with one in Afghanistan as a 13F and seen first hand how we fight
You know if we are comparing US troops to IG then it should probably be cadians, both being some of (debatably the) best. And considering that in Cadian Blood a guy got a shoulder wound that threw off him aim, causing him to miss twice in a row and got reported to the captain for it I'd give it to the IG over the US (idk much about US marine training but I'd assume they would accept that a shoulder wound would throw off your aim). Plus there is the whole 8 year olds stripping and re assembling lasguns and running what other regiments consider basic training.
100 vs. 100 I think a well-trained modern military would come out on top - IG have to stay in circa-10' unit coherency at all times, otherwise they freak out and don't know what to do; modern soldiers are able to act cohesively at greater distances and act independently if required. And yes, IG blindly obey orders - so snipers take out their officers, then there's no orders being issued - "crap sarge, what do we do now?" "Er...."
Where the hell did that come from? 10' unit coherency? Where did you here that? ANd besides, the Imperial Guard have a contingency plan in case the officers die. 'Keep moving forward!' in most cases, and if not 'Hold the position!'. An IG army may be halted temporarily through such tactics, but it won't be stopped.
It came from game rules: 2" ~= 10'; I don't recall reading that it was fluff-IG not game-IG
ChrisWWII wrote:
Equipment-wise: there's been a big swing to unmanned aerial vehicles in recent years, and UGVs have seen some action with a likelihood of more use in the next few years. The US could theoretically destroy the IG without ever presenting a human target to them.
Well, UAVs would be easy enough to swat from the sky with Hydras. I'd much rather face 1000 Predator Drones with Hydras than 20 F-22s with the best SAM launcher anyones ever built. Besides, an unmanned battlefield? Seriously? There are several things wrong with this.
1) You NEED foot grunts. I don't care how advanced your weapons are, or how fancy your unmanned vehicles are, you can not fight a ground war without infantry.
2) Artillery. Something the Imperial Guard is in love with, and more than willing to use indiscriminantly. Your fancy UAVs and UGVs have to be commanded from somewhere, and that somewhere will easily be in range of the big guns.
3) Since when has the Imperial Navy cared about civillian targets or collateral damage? If they needed to, a nice wing of Marauder bombers could be dropping from orbit over any major city they want, and unleash carpet bombing that hasn't been seen since the Second World War. Just because you have limited personell on the battlefield doesn't mean your population is safe.
True about the hydras, although unmanned battlefields are plausible:
1) Why not? Can you explain where they are needed in battle?
2) Why do they have to be in range? With satcomms there is no limit to signal range. Also, assuming they are in range, the artillery need to know where to target - if the control centre is in a hidden, undisclosed location the artillery can only take pot-shots and hope. It may be in an underground nuclear bunker, so even a direct hit will be ineffective.
I say, the modern army wins the 100 vs 100 encounter and the IG doesnt care and wins the war instead.
The modern army does not have the big guns, neither does it have the material.
IG has the worse individual skills, but much better logistics and the damn REAL big guns...
L_Dawg wrote:The Imperium would be based in orbit and although this seems like an impossible target, Earth could just launch its nukes towards it. Doing this would take longer to go through all the legislation and legal procedures than the Imperium to order a bombing run.
Not to mention that those nukes would do diddly-squat against the ships of the Imperial Navy, considering the magnitude of firepower their void shields can absorb before failing.
Imperial forces technology - Vortex missiles, void shielding, troops with camoline, long las snipers which could 1-hit you from half a continent away. Not to mention the sheer magnitude of power that the imperial army has. I don't even think that the US army could even down a Leviathan command vehicle, and titans....fat chance short of a nuke and even then....
100 versus 100. Basic armament on both sides would result in modern army winning, but if it was properly organised, IG would very definately win. Heck, even a baneblade would be hard to knock out.
jonolikespie wrote:You know if we are comparing US troops to IG then it should probably be cadians, both being some of (debatably the) best. And considering that in Cadian Blood a guy got a shoulder wound that threw off him aim, causing him to miss twice in a row and got reported to the captain for it I'd give it to the IG over the US (idk much about US marine training but I'd assume they would accept that a shoulder wound would throw off your aim). Plus there is the whole 8 year olds stripping and re assembling lasguns and running what other regiments consider basic training.
Yes, and that's what I did.
With regard to the eight years training in stripping a lasgun.
I've been eating soup all my life. I probably had 20 years of soup eating experience before a lot of you younger users were even born, and I've gone on eating soup ever since. I've eaten gallons of different soups in a bunch of different countries, and I've used all the major and variant methods of eating soup.
My daughter, only aged 11, is already just as good at eating soup as I am.
Ulver wrote:
True about the hydras, although unmanned battlefields are plausible
1) Why not? Can you explain where they are needed in battle?
Holding a position, actually directing the UAVs to their targets? It's kind of hard to spot a company sized infantry unit from the air, unless they're making themselves known. UAVs are a great force multiplier and wonderful support, but they ARE support. Not a replacement.
2) Why do they have to be in range? With satcomms there is no limit to signal range. Also, assuming they are in range, the artillery need to know where to target - if the control centre is in a hidden, undisclosed location the artillery can only take pot-shots and hope. It may be in an underground nuclear bunker, so even a direct hit will be ineffective.
THis is assuming the Imperial Navy hasn't destroyed every satellite they find. And even if it's in an undisclosed location, and in an underground bunker, you don't need to kill the operators to silence the UAVs. You just need to destroy the communications/signalling equipment.
3) Well then you can get the F22s out again
Lightning Escort.
Kilkrazy wrote:
I've been eating soup all my life. I probably had 20 years of soup eating experience before a lot of you younger users were even born, and I've gone on eating soup ever since. I've eaten gallons of different soups in a bunch of different countries, and I've used all the major and variant methods of eating soup.
My daughter, only aged 11, is already just as good at eating soup as I am.
However, there's a difference between eating soup and maintaining a weapon. Sure, 20 years of experience eating soup means little to nothing about the efficiency of your soup consumption compared to someone with 5 years. However, 20 years experience maintaining a weapon makes much more of a difference. If I learned today how to field strip and clean an assault rifle, I'd lose out to someone who has lots of experience field stripping and cleaning the same gun. Experience is much more important.
Ulver wrote:On the subject of Flak Armour being so good: sure, if a round actually hits the armour it may be stopped. However Flak Armour only covers the torso (and not completely, at that), a helmet for the head, and shoulder, knee and elbow pads. Remember that a kill is not necessary (nor always preferred) to take a soldier out of the fight.
Note that while Flak armor doesnt cover much on the guardsman, their guns make modern military armor moot, so in any case, assuming they were shooting at eachother with little to no cover, Imp Guard at best is wearing light tank armor, at worst on par with modern militaries.
It must also be pointed out (again) that Flak Armor in the IoM sense is not the same as Flak armor as we have today. It can deflect laser weapons, whereas our flak armor can barely stop gun rounds.
In addition, alot of people seem to be comparing all sorts of US military troops to the basic guard. Sure a sniper can be used to take out the commander, but IG can bring their own snipers to counter them, as well as Ratling snipers (who are harder to counter-snipe due to their small size and adept use of cover). Special Forces? The Imperial Guard can bring in Stormtroopers, who's Hotshot Lasguns can burn through Power armor (roughly equivallent to that of a light tank, if the indication that they can stand in an open topped rhino without making a Rhino open topped is correct). Stormtroopers can also pack anti-tank weapons in the form of small-scale fusion guns (meltas) and plasma guns. Then there's something the modern military cannot possibly account for, Ogryns. Hulking brutes who's skin laughs in the face of most modern guns, as well as wearing a respectable amount of the aforementioned Flak Armor. In addition, they carry around shotguns with a barrel feed, as well as being strong enough to be comparable to a grenade launcher.
Ulver wrote:
True about the hydras, although unmanned battlefields are plausible
1) Why not? Can you explain where they are needed in battle?
Holding a position, actually directing the UAVs to their targets? It's kind of hard to spot a company sized infantry unit from the air, unless they're making themselves known. UAVs are a great force multiplier and wonderful support, but they ARE support. Not a replacement.
A position could be held by UGVs, if they can establish a perimeter and present effective fields of fire to keep the enemy out, job done - same as if human infantry can establish a perimeter and present adequate fields of fire. The grunts are only needed after combat has finished - destroy/drive off the enemy with UGVs, send the foot soliders in to capitalise on the objective; there's still no human target presented to the enemy.
ChrisWWII wrote:
2) Why do they have to be in range? With satcomms there is no limit to signal range. Also, assuming they are in range, the artillery need to know where to target - if the control centre is in a hidden, undisclosed location the artillery can only take pot-shots and hope. It may be in an underground nuclear bunker, so even a direct hit will be ineffective.
THis is assuming the Imperial Navy hasn't destroyed every satellite they find. And even if it's in an undisclosed location, and in an underground bunker, you don't need to kill the operators to silence the UAVs. You just need to destroy the communications/signalling equipment.
Satellite was only one example, and I was only thinking of it for other-side-of-the-world control, and even then it's not the only option, SW radio waves get reflected from the ionosphere. All sorts of communications protocols are available. Let's face it, ARPANET was nearly 50 years ago, I'm sure the US have moved on from then with fully redundant communications.
Signalling equipment could very well be smaller than a person, disguised as a tree, hidden up a tree, AWACS used as nodes, all sorts of things. If they want a commnet, they can set one up.
ChrisWWII wrote:
3) Well then you can get the F22s out again
Lightning Escort.
I will see your Lightning Escort and raise you one Metal Storm system (instead of the F22s; maybe several Metal Storm systems )
FWIW I think you're right that we will never see 100% UV battlegrounds (actually, maybe one day, but not for a long time); as I said it is theoretical. A bit like pitching fictional IG against real world military.
Ulver wrote:
A position could be held by UGVs, if they can establish a perimeter and present effective fields of fire to keep the enemy out, job done - same as if human infantry can establish a perimeter and present adequate fields of fire. The grunts are only needed after combat has finished - destroy/drive off the enemy with UGVs, send the foot soliders in to capitalise on the objective; there's still no human target presented to the enemy.
Any UGV could quite easily be outsmarted by a human soldier, one of the reasons you don't send armor out on its own is because you need the eyes nad ears of the infantry to see what's around your tank, and it's the same with a UGV, just on a smaller scale. If it's controlled by a human, that human can only be looking so many ways at once, it's not that hard to sneak up on it. If it's completely autonomous? Well even easier to confused and eliminate. UGVs and UAVs are revolutionary in that they change a key aspect of how wars are fought, but they do not obsolete infantry in any sense of the word.
Satellite was only one example, and I was only thinking of it for other-side-of-the-world control, and even then it's not the only option, SW radio waves get reflected from the ionosphere. All sorts of communications protocols are available. Let's face it, ARPANET was nearly 50 years ago, I'm sure the US have moved on from then with fully redundant communications.
Signalling equipment could very well be smaller than a person, disguised as a tree, hidden up a tree, AWACS used as nodes, all sorts of things. If they want a commnet, they can set one up.
And if the Imperium wanted to take it down it could take it down. The Imperium isn't so stupid it can't figure out where signals are coming from. AWACS aircraft can be shot down, forests can be burned to the ground, etc. etc. For an average military force? Not as bad a problem. You can communicate through old fashioned signalling, runners, whatever, but for a UGV or UAV? The loss of 100% signal control would be a major major problem.
I will see your Lightning Escort and raise you one Metal Storm system (instead of the F22s; maybe several Metal Storm systems )
Unless you've magically managed to install metal storm batteries with the range to hit orbital targets all over the world, Metal Storm isn't really relevant. It's awesome, and it looks hella cool, but we're talking a real world military versus the Imperial Guard. The real world military doesn't have metal storm.
Ulver wrote:
A position could be held by UGVs, if they can establish a perimeter and present effective fields of fire to keep the enemy out, job done - same as if human infantry can establish a perimeter and present adequate fields of fire. The grunts are only needed after combat has finished - destroy/drive off the enemy with UGVs, send the foot soliders in to capitalise on the objective; there's still no human target presented to the enemy.
Any UGV could quite easily be outsmarted by a human soldier, one of the reasons you don't send armor out on its own is because you need the eyes nad ears of the infantry to see what's around your tank, and it's the same with a UGV, just on a smaller scale. If it's controlled by a human, that human can only be looking so many ways at once, it's not that hard to sneak up on it. If it's completely autonomous? Well even easier to confused and eliminate. UGVs and UAVs are revolutionary in that they change a key aspect of how wars are fought, but they do not obsolete infantry in any sense of the word.
Satellite was only one example, and I was only thinking of it for other-side-of-the-world control, and even then it's not the only option, SW radio waves get reflected from the ionosphere. All sorts of communications protocols are available. Let's face it, ARPANET was nearly 50 years ago, I'm sure the US have moved on from then with fully redundant communications.
Signalling equipment could very well be smaller than a person, disguised as a tree, hidden up a tree, AWACS used as nodes, all sorts of things. If they want a commnet, they can set one up.
And if the Imperium wanted to take it down it could take it down. The Imperium isn't so stupid it can't figure out where signals are coming from. AWACS aircraft can be shot down, forests can be burned to the ground, etc. etc. For an average military force? Not as bad a problem. You can communicate through old fashioned signalling, runners, whatever, but for a UGV or UAV? The loss of 100% signal control would be a major major problem.
I will see your Lightning Escort and raise you one Metal Storm system (instead of the F22s; maybe several Metal Storm systems )
Unless you've magically managed to install metal storm batteries with the range to hit orbital targets all over the world, Metal Storm isn't really relevant. It's awesome, and it looks hella cool, but we're talking a real world military versus the Imperial Guard. The real world military doesn't have metal storm.
All very good points
I still think bringing down an entire comms network would be nigh on impossible. The whole point of a packet switched network like ARPANET/Internet is that as soon as one node goes down, the connection is automatically routed through the next best route. If we're talking about an invasion situation the fighting would most likely be around population centres, and then you've got GPRS/3G transmitters every 400 metres or so.
I wouldn't say that the military doesn't have Metal Storm; they just don't have it in large amounts. Small orders have been delivered (I assume for testing purposes), but you're right, if we're taking a snapshot the military today, no it isn't relevant.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Ulver wrote:
I will see your Lightning Escort and raise you one Metal Storm system (instead of the F22s; maybe several Metal Storm systems )
I re-raise: Those won't be able to shoot down bombers or fighters that operates in high orbit. Neither will the F22s.
It doesn't need to shoot down the bombers - it only needs to shoot down the bombs. One of the stated purposes of multi-barrel Metal Storm weapons is to shoot down missiles and other projectiles.
Ulver wrote:
It doesn't need to shoot down the bombers - it only needs to shoot down the bombs. One of the stated purposes of multi-barrel Metal Storm weapons is to shoot down missiles and other projectiles.
Still doesn't stop las/lance/tratitional ordnance weapons from fzorgling/kabooming the metal storms themselves.
Ulver wrote:
I still think bringing down an entire comms network would be nigh on impossible. The whole point of a packet switched network like ARPANET/Internet is that as soon as one node goes down, the connection is automatically routed through the next best route. If we're talking about an invasion situation the fighting would most likely be around population centres, and then you've got GPRS/3G transmitters every 400 metres or so.
I still think the IG would win, it is probably the army that has more battle experience that would prevail when it comes to similiar strengthed weapons in a controlled environment.
With IG you don't know. We could be talking about the hardbitten veterans of scores of battlefields, men who have encountered every evil feth in the 40k galaxy and walked over them...or we could be talking about the greenies from 15 hours.
Well, modern militaries may just be any from any country then, it could be from North Korea, China, Japan or less advanced, there should be a definiton of modern and experience and also the armies in consideration ( which should be similiar to each other), as i stated in earlier posts. Also, 15 hours against anything in the 40k universe would seem experienced enough.
Ulver wrote:
I still think bringing down an entire comms network would be nigh on impossible. The whole point of a packet switched network like ARPANET/Internet is that as soon as one node goes down, the connection is automatically routed through the next best route. If we're talking about an invasion situation the fighting would most likely be around population centres, and then you've got GPRS/3G transmitters every 400 metres or so.
I wouldn't say that the military doesn't have Metal Storm; they just don't have it in large amounts. Small orders have been delivered (I assume for testing purposes), but you're right, if we're taking a snapshot the military today, no it isn't relevant
As was said, EMP blasts, signal jamming, all kinds of things that could be easy enough for the Imperium to unleash. More importantly, hwo can we be sure the main targets will be population centers? In the 40k universe, the Guard targets population centers not because they're population centers, but because they have spaceports there that they can use to bring down more crap. I have a feeling the primary targets of an Imperial invasion would only become population center once they have secured a stronghold on planet Earth.
Besides, even if the communications network is secure, one good lance shot from orbit should destroy the source of the signals, even if the source is a nuclear bunker.
It doesn't need to shoot down the bombers - it only needs to shoot down the bombs. One of the stated purposes of multi-barrel Metal Storm weapons is to shoot down missiles and other projectiles.
One of the biggest problems with current CIWS is not that the weapons are not fast enough, accurate enough, or rapid firing enough to take down enemy missiles....it's that even after they shred the missile, the warhead, or other nasty bits just continues straight on thanks to momentum and hits the target anyway. The same will happen with bomsb. You'll shread the bomb, yes, but there will still be a 500 lbs warhead falling towards the ground.
Ulver wrote:
I will see your Lightning Escort and raise you one Metal Storm system (instead of the F22s; maybe several Metal Storm systems )
I re-raise: Those won't be able to shoot down bombers or fighters that operates in high orbit. Neither will the F22s.
But since when do imperial fighters and bombers operate from high orbit?
Imperial bombers seem to usually operate from altitudes comparable to modern jet bombers, which would usually be in range of a metal storm system.
And it has been mentionned that imperials could use las, plasma or lance weaponry to flatten our troops. But these weapons are only operated from ships in high orbit, and are highly unaccurate. They're meant to burn entire continents, not to launch surgical strikes.
I wouldn't call metal storm useless but there are some errors in that video.
1. The basic concept is quite old. Some experiments into rapid fire guns involved stacking the ammunition in the barrel and igniting it with a series of hammers.
2. Electronic ignition doesn't eliminate the possibility of misfires. Once a misfire occurs, the ammo stacked in the barrel becomes a problem, because if the next round in line gets ignited, it might touch off the round in front of it.
Ulver wrote:
I will see your Lightning Escort and raise you one Metal Storm system (instead of the F22s; maybe several Metal Storm systems )
I re-raise: Those won't be able to shoot down bombers or fighters that operates in high orbit. Neither will the F22s.
But since when do imperial fighters and bombers operate from high orbit?
Imperial bombers seem to usually operate from altitudes comparable to modern jet bombers, which would usually be in range of a metal storm system.
And it has been mentionned that imperials could use las, plasma or lance weaponry to flatten our troops. But these weapons are only operated from ships in high orbit, and are highly unaccurate. They're meant to burn entire continents, not to launch surgical strikes.
Fine then. Anti-ship torpedoes launched from orbit. Have fun shooting them down. You don't have to be accurate if you have a big enough boom!
Laodamia wrote:
But since when do imperial fighters and bombers operate from high orbit?
Imperial bombers seem to usually operate from altitudes comparable to modern jet bombers, which would usually be in range of a metal storm system.
And it has been mentionned that imperials could use las, plasma or lance weaponry to flatten our troops. But these weapons are only operated from ships in high orbit, and are highly unaccurate. They're meant to burn entire continents, not to launch surgical strikes.
They come down from high orbit. And I doubt a high altitude jet bomber like a B-52 or Tu-160 would linger around in range of surface guns. There is a reason we switched away from ack ack and to SAMs people! The best use of metal storm would be against low but fast aircraft, like a Thunderbolt providing close air support, not trying to intercept high altitude bombers.
And, given that in game Marines can call in orbital strikes, something tells me that orbital fire is a bit more accurate than you're giving credit for. Remember, ship to ship weapons have to be accurate enough to hit another ship size vessell at combat ranges of hundreds of thousands of miles. At closer range, there is no doubt that they'd be able to land shots in a decently containted area. It would be as accurate as say field artillery, but it would be able to be used tacticcally.
yes just as killcrazy said the original senario is 100 modern earth troops vs. 100 IG troops, not space craft and bombers, and tanks and such, perhaps intrinsic artillery support such as what the master of ordance can call, and what our FO's can have access to bt not battlebarges/Retribution battleships raining melta torps onto the battle field, because in that case both groups of troops get turned into statistics.
and P.S baring the vortex/death strike missle I have always been a bit underwhelmed by the IG's artillery even as described by the various forge world books, its basically a slightly scaled up WW2 artillery systems, our current GPS guided munitions, and MLRS systems make most the presented ingame IG stuff pretty amatureish to say the least, just for a example a MLRS strike can pretty much eliminate all hostiles in 1k grid....I have seen it happen in RL, scary stuff.
And a Manticore is basically a MLRS system. The Imperial Guard's artillery is equal to modern systems at the very least, and have it in much greater quantities. I personally think it's valid to be discussing these things, given that a company sized force will have SOME kind of communications equipment to call for air, artillery or even orbital support.
If we're assuming that they've lost all communications somehow, I think the answeris simple. They keep each other pinned through heavy weapons fire until one side finally gets it support in action. Infantry aren't meant to attack without any support. They're meant to attack with artillery bombardments, and armor support. That or be meched up....and we still haven't even decided that, have we? Is this a swarm company, or is this a comany mounted up in Chimeras with intrinsic Leman Russ support? Same thing for the Earth force....
If you want to assume that both sides have full access to the maximum possible support their respective high commands can provide, then obviously the IG will win very quickly, because the IoM have practically limitless troops, ships and so on compared to the whole of modern Earth.
The result is so pre-determined that it makes the whole exercise meaningless and dull.
I'm not assuming that, I'm just wondering...we need to determine who is facing who. We've managed to say its the US Army fighint a Cadian Regiment, but we still need more information. 100 Guardsmen...are they motor rifle? foot? What? I'm tempted to just say we have two infantry companies, and their communications have been cut off. So the IG can't call in artillery or orbital support, and the earth forces can't call in air strikes. Each side is a pure infantry company, so no Leman Russes or Chimeras for the Imperials, and no Bradleys or Abrams for the Earth forces. Seem fair to everyone?
I picked the most basic and lightly armed US Army infantry unit, which is a light infantry company with none of its supports. This happens to be on paper 96 men, so I added four more with rifles.
It should be possible to find a fairly standard IG infantry unit of similar size. They are based on modern armies after all.
Kilkrazy wrote:I picked the most basic and lightly armed US Army infantry unit, which is a light infantry company with none of its supports. This happens to be on paper 96 men, so I added four more with rifles.
It should be possible to find a fairly standard IG infantry unit of similar size. They are based on modern armies after all.
Which is exactly what makes this discussion so pointless.
Alright, so that's 3 rifle platoons, and one heavy weapons platoon for the US Army. According to wikipedia, each rifle platton consists of a Platoon HQ (essentially a PCS), 3 Rifle Squads, and a Heavy Weapons Squad. I personally believe something like this IG Infantry Company would be equal to that. As a more Russian style army, the IG is concentrating all its heavy weapons in squads under central command, instead of leaving them more dispersed amongst the men.
We'll assume that they're bringing weapons suited to fighting other infantry, so machine guns, mortars, and some light AT (AT4s or the similar) for the US Army, and heavy bolters, autocannons and missile launchers for the IG. I personally think that leaves us about equal.
If these 2 forces were to face each other in the field, I'd predict stalemate with victory eventually going to the IG. With heavy weapons, and decent leadership on both sides, each side would be reduced to firign at the other from foxholes or other such fixed position, essentially a war of attrition, and this favors the IG. With the faith and determination of zealots on their side (not to mention Commissars) their morale would take longer to break.
Why does everyone assume the IG are untrained meat shields?
In order to even attempt to enter the Guard, you have to be a serving member of the PDF and then show extreme promise. When the drafts to the Guard are held, the best members of the Planetary Defense Force compete to be chosen. The best are then taken into the regiments and given far, far better training in weapons, combat techniques and far more.
Essentially, the Guard are the Marines, Commandos or Special Forces of the Imperium. And there's billions of them.
ChrisWWII wrote:Alright, so that's 3 rifle platoons, and one heavy weapons platoon for the US Army. According to wikipedia, each rifle platton consists of a Platoon HQ (essentially a PCS), 3 Rifle Squads, and a Heavy Weapons Squad. I personally believe something like this IG Infantry Company would be equal to that. As a more Russian style army, the IG is concentrating all its heavy weapons in squads under central command, instead of leaving them more dispersed amongst the men.
We'll assume that they're bringing weapons suited to fighting other infantry, so machine guns, mortars, and some light AT (AT4s or the similar) for the US Army, and heavy bolters, autocannons and missile launchers for the IG. I personally think that leaves us about equal.
If these 2 forces were to face each other in the field, I'd predict stalemate with victory eventually going to the IG. With heavy weapons, and decent leadership on both sides, each side would be reduced to firign at the other from foxholes or other such fixed position, essentially a war of attrition, and this favors the IG. With the faith and determination of zealots on their side (not to mention Commissars) their morale would take longer to break.
Dont IG have mortars too? and I wouldnt put it past them to bring in some special weapons like grenade launchers and plasma guns (although the last one is kinda overkill). The commanding officier might also have a bolt pistol in any case.
Conservationist wrote:Come on guys, its just 100 against 100! Either 100 Guard or 100 Modern Soldiers! This should be a poll.
Unfortunately it's so much more complicated than that. Looking at it that way is just like saying, '2000 points of Tau or 2000 points of IG, who would win?!?' There are lots of questions. Are those 100 Guardsmen new recruits, or are they harened Veterans? Are they Mechanized Infantry of horde? Do they have intrinsic support? Can they call for outside support? All these questions have to be answered before you can analyze the original question.
Conservationist wrote:Come on guys, its just 100 against 100! Either 100 Guard or 100 Modern Soldiers! This should be a poll.
Unfortunately it's so much more complicated than that. Looking at it that way is just like saying, '2000 points of Tau or 2000 points of IG, who would win?!?' There are lots of questions. Are those 100 Guardsmen new recruits, or are they harened Veterans? Are they Mechanized Infantry of horde? Do they have intrinsic support? Can they call for outside support? All these questions have to be answered before you can analyze the original question.
They could also be stormtroopers or Ogryns too. or Ratlings with Cameocloaks hidden in jungles. or 100 Marbos ;D
Miraclefish wrote:Why does everyone assume the IG are untrained meat shields?
In order to even attempt to enter the Guard, you have to be a serving member of the PDF and then show extreme promise. When the drafts to the Guard are held, the best members of the Planetary Defense Force compete to be chosen. The best are then taken into the regiments and given far, far better training in weapons, combat techniques and far more.
Essentially, the Guard are the Marines, Commandos or Special Forces of the Imperium. And there's billions of them.
The modern day army is screwed.
Thats sounds like you're confusing Space Marines with the IGTBH. Read Fifteen Hours, (the book's title is a reference to the average lifespan of a Guardsman) it's about a bunch of farmboys conscripted into Guardsmen. I would guess Sergeants would generally be ex-PDF forces or some-such, but there is very few fluff to support your "IG are elite forces" theory, which everything GW says seems to indicate that it is the Space Marines' role as the surgical blade, and that the IG act as the Hammer of the Imperium, slow, un-wieldy, but really big and really powerful.
You don't compete to join the Guard, you don't try to enter (often means your death if you are a Guardsmen), you're forced into it as a civilian. (Depends on the IG planet I suppose, but I assume we're using Cadians as the baseline IG here)
It's the Space Marines that hold great trials for competing warriors to fight for the chance to join the Chapter as the best of the best.
Training for Guardsmen vary alot. All Vostroyian firstborne sons are automatically conscripted regardless of heritage, training, and accomplishments. Cadians, however, are pretty much born with a lasgun shoved into their hands. Catachans' homeworld basically forces them to be expert jungle fighters, or become food. The other regiments arn't that much better off, with only a select few having "normal" training standards (if there is one).
Chapter Master Aeneas wrote:Im in college and I started the discussion started by maybe many IG fans is what would happen if they came here my friend says that 100 modern soilders v 100 guardsman in an open field that the imperial guard would have no significant advantage.
Glancing quickly through the thread I noticed that no one mentioned the psychological/morale aspect. You see IG troops have their lasers as well as something called... plasma guns - how many modern soldiers have been under laser fire?
I mean, we tend to have this modern mindset and we can imagine stuff like that, but... a proper analogy in 100 vs 100 situation on a psycholgical level might be something like troops of Hernan Cortez using gunpowder weapons and horses against the primitive armament of the aztecs in the 1500's. Soldier with a modern mindset would probably surrender in such a isolated situation (no reinforcements nearby etc.).
One could of course argue, in addition to the points made, that if the troops go to ground and both sides have weapons capable of hurting each other, IG would eventually win the shooting war: they have more ammo as a standard issue (lasguns 300+ vs. if I recall correctly, about 180 carried by a single U.S. soldier). Most shots fired in battle situations miss, after all. On the other hand, as stated by someone, average modern military might be better equipped with support weapons usable in man vs man conflicts than the average representation of the IG. I'm not totally sure if there is a point, though. IG belongs to a different realm, the realm of scifi.
Expanding the scenario to air support etc. is pointless, as stated by several posters - Imperial spaceships would simply obliterate everything they like from the orbit in a full-scale conflict. Earth governments would probably surrender in a situation where spaceships start to appear and communicate with them. On the other hand, if 100 isolated IG personnel suddenly ended up on modern earth, any modern army could decimate them if the need arose. So, it's either a rather one-sided full scale conflict or no full scale conflict.
There was a Cracked article about the psychological aspects of killing people. According to it, even trained soldiers find it hard to actually consciously attempt to kill another human being, sometimes subconsciously missing the target and chalking it up as an accident. IG, however, likely wont have this problem. Regimental Commissars and the general imperial indoctrination would have eliminated any hesitation on their part: either that guy dies or I die, either by him shooting me or my officer shooting me. They're also fearless by our standards. When you're asked to face a 20 foot tall monstrous alien that can splatter your innards on the ground like silly putty or face the incarnation of rage on largely a daily basis, you're not gonna fear a regular human armed with a dated rifle.
Elector wrote:You don't compete to join the Guard, you don't try to enter (often means your death if you are a Guardsmen), you're forced into it as a civilian. (Depends on the IG planet I suppose, but I assume we're using Cadians as the baseline IG here)
If we're using Cadians as the baseline, then what you stated previously (about the low quality of IG conscription) is completely untrue. On Cadia military service is mandatory and from the age of 10 everybody trains to 'conscription' level competency. Live ammo, field exercises, wargames, the works.
PAge 8 of the IG Codex backs up that the IG are the elite of each planets PDF. Mass COnscription, the kind we saw in 15 Hours is the exception rather than the rule.
Kilkrazy wrote:That's what they want you to believe.
How many elites need to be driven to battle by commissars.
Yeah...you're misunderstanding the purpose of commissars.
They're not there to 'drive the Guardsmen into battle'.
They're there to ensure that orders are obeyed and to serve as a 'rallying cry' for the Guard if morale is broken.
Plus: I'm sure if we put special operations personnel on Cadia during the 13th Black Crusade, there'd be a high likelihood they'd have froze when confronted with hordes of angry mutants and zombies...
And as an aside: the Cadians don't use 'em It's actually considered an insult for a Cadian regiment to have a Commissar attached to it, since the role of Commissar is able to be filled by the Captains/Lieutenants of the regiment, who receive commissariat training in how to handle things like psykers, etc.
Kilkrazy wrote:That's what they want you to believe.
How many elites need to be driven to battle by commissars.
How many elites need to fight 20 foot tall daemons, or a horde of psychotic green skinned aliens on a common basis? Note, that the elites of the Imperium (Space Marines, Storm Troopers, Sororitas) don't need Commissars.
That and what Kanluwen said. Commissars are disciplinary officer, the Guard charge into battle when they're ordered. Commissars are there to keep the chain of command, and to ensure loyalty to the Imperium. That's the official fluff reason for their existence.
We spent all our existence finding new and better ways to kill each other, we learn from the past.
40k has the advantage, their technology is simply better, unlimited rounds, better protection, able to keep a steady hail of fire without the weapon overheating or malfunctioning
Don't compare modern assault rifles to lasguns, can you compare a musket to a m16?
Man portable weapons capable of destroying the cover you are hiding with longer range and accuracy.
The longbowman was extremely trained, since he was a child, he was a elite troop, do you pit 100 of them against 100 modern soldiers? and its only 1000 years difference, not 38000.
Miraclefish wrote:Why does everyone assume the IG are untrained meat shields?
In order to even attempt to enter the Guard, you have to be a serving member of the PDF and then show extreme promise. When the drafts to the Guard are held, the best members of the Planetary Defense Force compete to be chosen. The best are then taken into the regiments and given far, far better training in weapons, combat techniques and far more.
Essentially, the Guard are the Marines, Commandos or Special Forces of the Imperium. And there's billions of them.
The modern day army is screwed.
Thats sounds like you're confusing Space Marines with the IGTBH. Read Fifteen Hours, (the book's title is a reference to the average lifespan of a Guardsman) it's about a bunch of farmboys conscripted into Guardsmen. I would guess Sergeants would generally be ex-PDF forces or some-such, but there is very few fluff to support your "IG are elite forces" theory, which everything GW says seems to indicate that it is the Space Marines' role as the surgical blade, and that the IG act as the Hammer of the Imperium, slow, un-wieldy, but really big and really powerful.
You don't compete to join the Guard, you don't try to enter (often means your death if you are a Guardsmen), you're forced into it as a civilian. (Depends on the IG planet I suppose, but I assume we're using Cadians as the baseline IG here)
It's the Space Marines that hold great trials for competing warriors to fight for the chance to join the Chapter as the best of the best.
Sorry but you're incorrect. All canon sources point to the Guard being the elite of the PDF. World provide anything up to 25,000,000 Guardsmen a year as part of their tithes - so the numbers are not a problem. There is no need for mass enforced foundings.
The PDF are looked down to by the better trained, better paid and better equipped guard. And countless stories have references to ex-PDF soldiers who've been accepted into the Guard.
The Space Marines are just that but to the Nth degree.
Ribon Fox wrote:If the bowmen had desent cover I recon they would do a far amount of damage due to being able to fire with out LoS
Forgetting the fact that they need to see to aim, they need to fire standing, and a range of 120 yards, kevlar would stop most of the arrows, and when they reached the bowman lines......ouch...
Miraclefish wrote:Why does everyone assume the IG are untrained meat shields?
In order to even attempt to enter the Guard, you have to be a serving member of the PDF and then show extreme promise. When the drafts to the Guard are held, the best members of the Planetary Defense Force compete to be chosen. The best are then taken into the regiments and given far, far better training in weapons, combat techniques and far more.
Essentially, the Guard are the Marines, Commandos or Special Forces of the Imperium. And there's billions of them.
The modern day army is screwed.
Thats sounds like you're confusing Space Marines with the IGTBH. Read Fifteen Hours, (the book's title is a reference to the average lifespan of a Guardsman) it's about a bunch of farmboys conscripted into Guardsmen. I would guess Sergeants would generally be ex-PDF forces or some-such, but there is very few fluff to support your "IG are elite forces" theory, which everything GW says seems to indicate that it is the Space Marines' role as the surgical blade, and that the IG act as the Hammer of the Imperium, slow, un-wieldy, but really big and really powerful.
Depends on the planet the regiment is raised from. The Tanith First was raised from the ranks of the PDF, not 'conscripted'.
Oh. And the "Fifteen Hours" wasn't a reference to 'the average lifespan of a Guardsman'.
It was a reference to 'the average lifespan of a replacement Guardsman' dropped into a world overrun by Orks, with little to no supplies and a command chain that goes out of their way to ignore the soldiers in the trenches.
You don't compete to join the Guard, you don't try to enter (often means your death if you are a Guardsmen), you're forced into it as a civilian. (Depends on the IG planet I suppose, but I assume we're using Cadians as the baseline IG here)
Again: incorrect.
When a planet does a "Founding", it's all PDF being rerouted into the Guard, but they still have to reach a certain number of men for that Founding.
If they don't reach that number from the PDF(without feasibly leaving the planet undefended), they open up volunteer positions.
If they don't reach that number from there?
Then yes, they do start conscripting people.
But you're really missing the point that most Imperial citizens? They'll never leave their homeworld. The Guard is a chance for glory and fame and all kinds of adventure!
At least that's what the recruiting ads say
It's the Space Marines that hold great trials for competing warriors to fight for the chance to join the Chapter as the best of the best.
Ehhhh...yes/no.
The Space Wolves hold no "great trials". They just monitor the tribes on Fenris and pick who they want, take 'em and go.
And they're not the only ones who do that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SCYTHE9 wrote:
Ribon Fox wrote:If the bowmen had desent cover I recon they would do a far amount of damage due to being able to fire with out LoS
Forgetting the fact that they need to see to aim, they need to fire standing, and a range of 120 yards, kevlar would stop most of the arrows, and when they reached the bowman lines......ouch...
Uh, they don't actually need to see to aim.
Part of what made the longbow so devastating was volley fire, where they could arc it over the walls of fortifications or infantry in front of them.
Add to it that those longbowmen likely have short swords, I'd say it would be an 'ouch' for the guys who get that close to them Kevlar and modern bulletproof vests don't really do much against blades.
Yeah, bullerproof vests don't do much against a knife. I mean the trauma plates might stop the blade, but not the Kevlar. If the archers had time to volley fire, and had cover against the guns they'd bring down no small number of soldiers.
Matters on which guardsmen we are talking about. If it is Cadians. goodbye U.S. Military. The Cadians are trained in combat like the US. Its just that the Cadians are all very intelligent in war and that is what they were made for.
But heres one guardsmen group that would lose.... sorry can't find one.
The US military may have indiviual skills but the guardsmen have superior weapons and training and are more experinced. The Guard Commanders would just send in an Assassin Guild to kill the entire military commanding branch.
Forgetting the fact that they need to see to aim, they need to fire standing, and a range of 120 yards, kevlar would stop most of the arrows, and when they reached the bowman lines......ouch...
Uh, they don't actually need to see to aim.
Part of what made the longbow so devastating was volley fire, where they could arc it over the walls of fortifications or infantry in front of them.
Add to it that those longbowmen likely have short swords, I'd say it would be an 'ouch' for the guys who get that close to them Kevlar and modern bulletproof vests don't really do much against blades.
so now they have a castle? Ok our troops have tanks. I believe its equal grounds so They volley fira at massed infantry, 100 dudes is not massed infantry. Kevlar doesn't stop blades, do you play COD is it? A vest capable of stoping projectiles voer the speed of sound cannot stop a short sword? i concede blunt trauma but penetration? And again COD, a guy charging me with a short sword and me with a assault rifle.....do you really believe the short sword wins?
Small burts from the hip...
Come on, kevlar is used to stop pistol rounds, and cannot stop a knife? You understand the difference in speed of each.
Forgetting the fact that they need to see to aim, they need to fire standing, and a range of 120 yards, kevlar would stop most of the arrows, and when they reached the bowman lines......ouch...
Uh, they don't actually need to see to aim.
Part of what made the longbow so devastating was volley fire, where they could arc it over the walls of fortifications or infantry in front of them.
Add to it that those longbowmen likely have short swords, I'd say it would be an 'ouch' for the guys who get that close to them Kevlar and modern bulletproof vests don't really do much against blades.
so now they have a castle?
It doesn't have to be a castle. They'd fire from behind log revetments, cavalry spikes, pavises, etc. Point is: they don't need to see the enemy to be effective.
Ok our troops have tanks. I believe its equal grounds
Because you're trying to make a point from when you began with a ridiculous statement.
so They volley fire at massed infantry, 100 dudes is not massed infantry.
And I didn't say it was. But with how fireteam discipline is today, volleys would actually be quite effective at night.
Kevlar doesn't stop blades, do you play COD is it? [A vest capable of stopping projectiles over the speed of sound cannot stop a short sword? i concede blunt trauma but penetration?
Are you dense?
There's a reason why they're trying so hard to make better body armor for soldiers and police officers that can stop fragmentation grenades and knives/blunt instruments better. Combat knives can cut right through kevlar, since kevlar is a fabric designed to work with ceramic trauma plates to absorb the impact of a propelled object, not something shoved right into it at close range.
And again COD, a guy charging me with a short sword and me with a assault rifle.....do you really believe the short sword wins?
If you're going to keep referencing COD, I'll point you to the fact that I can kill someone with a knife in one shot while a .50 can take 3 shots.
Small burst from the hip...
Yes, because firing an assault rifle from the hip--even "small bursts" guarantees you 100% accuracy.
And will totally work when you're at close quarters! It's not like that's never been done or is why they have sidearms...
mrsmith wrote:Well laser weapons in most scifi settings are pretty inferior to a modern day assault rifle in most ways (star trek, starwars) so...
Those aren't lasers. Those are not concentrated. Into a focused beam of light that basically are pure energy untampered. And plus this is 40k All weapons are ridiciously powerful even a las pistol is dangerous.
Yes you can, coming from behind and slashing across the throat, of stabbing up towards the heart. But it works with the element of surprise.
small burst fire from the hip from 50 soldiers, i'm assuming they are on open field, where the bowman were more efective, so yes 150 shots every 1 second.
side arms are not for CC, thats why modern rifles are shorter, i agree that longer barrels aren't good in close quarters.
Ok this is getting silly , longbows and shortswords vs. assault rifles in CQB, 1shot knife kills when a .50 cal something takes 3 hits, sounds like alot of arm chair generals, and computer gamer experiance.
I am in the U.S. army and have been in real CQB against real people, and seen ( through Binos) 12.7mm hits and the purple haze that follows, and if you can show me a human that can take 3 12.7mm hits to any other parts of their bodies other than their pinkies and piggy-toes I will be shocked, also I would be overjoyed to face an 100 enemies armed with longbows anytime with a 100 of my fellow paratroopers armed with modern weapons...lol.
I carried a tomahawk for last ditch CQ but I also always made a point of putting a fresh mag in my M4 whenever I was in doubt to my rounds, and no we don't "shoot from the hip" its a tight controlled 3 round burst or semi auto double tap that gets the job done, even when your target is 10 feet away inside a dark qualot and waiting with a sks and a spike bayonet.
so shortsword vs. a locked and loaded M4 equals a dead shortswordsman, but I thought this thread was about 100 IG vs. 100 modern troops...ohwell
ChrisWWII wrote:Alright, so that's 3 rifle platoons, and one heavy weapons platoon for the US Army. According to wikipedia, each rifle platton consists of a Platoon HQ (essentially a PCS), 3 Rifle Squads, and a Heavy Weapons Squad. I personally believe something like this IG Infantry Company would be equal to that. As a more Russian style army, the IG is concentrating all its heavy weapons in squads under central command, instead of leaving them more dispersed amongst the men.
You didn't have to go to Wikipedia, you could have just asked me. Anyways, doesn't matter what armor IG brings because I'd decimate it with a Javelin as my buddies chew up guardsmen with the 240s.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: Ok this is getting silly , longbows and shortswords vs. assault rifles in CQB, 1shot knife kills when a .50 cal something takes 3 hits, sounds like alot of arm chair generals, and computer gamer experiance.
I am in the U.S. army and have been in real CQB against real people, and seen ( through Binos) 12.7mm hits and the purple haze that follows, and if you can show me a human that can take 3 12.7mm hits to any other parts of their bodies other than their pinkies and piggy-toes I will be shocked, also I would be overjoyed to face an 100 enemies armed with longbows anytime with a 100 of my fellow paratroopers armed with modern weapons...lol.
I carried a tomahawk for last ditch CQ but I also always made a point of putting a fresh mag in my M4 whenever I was in doubt to my rounds, and no we don't "shoot from the hip" its a tight controlled 3 round burst or semi auto double tap that gets the job done, even when your target is 10 feet away inside a dark qualot and waiting with a sks and a spike bayonet.
so shortsword vs. a locked and loaded M4 equals a dead shortswordsman, but I thought this thread was about 100 IG vs. 100 modern troops...ohwell
Yes i used that analogy to show the difference and technology, my first post aludes to that, 1000 years between longbow and assault rifle, 38000 between lasgun and assault rifle.
I to was in the army and we had old flak jackets, vietnam era, made to withstand shrapnell. I believe the armour for the guardsman is able to stop much more, after all it is capable to stop ork guns.
I think IG would win, simply because modern day militaries have never even seen a lasgun before, and that kind of firepower would be utterly demoralizing. It would quickly turn from a battle to a rout.
Goddard wrote:I think IG would win, simply because modern day militaries have never even seen a lasgun before, and that kind of firepower would be utterly demoralizing. It would quickly turn from a battle to a rout.
As well as the modern armor getting ripped to shreds by this new technology. Agreed.
Actually, all of the guardsmen would see that us modern soldiers are treated like human beings (most of the time) and see that we actually care about each other. They would just run over to our side and join us, leaving only angry commissars.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: Ok this is getting silly , longbows and shortswords vs. assault rifles in CQB, 1shot knife kills when a .50 cal something takes 3 hits, sounds like alot of arm chair generals, and computer gamer experiance.
That was the point I was making. He was using Call of Duty as an example of "effectiveness of body armor". They're not concerned with making it 'realistic'. They're concerned with making it 'balanced' and 'enjoyable' for the playerbase. Which means toning down the effectiveness of sniper rifles, etc.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
I carried a tomahawk for last ditch CQ but I also always made a point of putting a fresh mag in my M4 whenever I was in doubt to my rounds, and no we don't "shoot from the hip" its a tight controlled 3 round burst or semi auto double tap that gets the job done, even when your target is 10 feet away inside a dark qualot and waiting with a sks and a spike bayonet.
so shortsword vs. a locked and loaded M4 equals a dead shortswordsman, but I thought this thread was about 100 IG vs. 100 modern troops...ohwell
Good for you knowing how CQB works then. Surprised about the tomahawk though, couldn't find a Rambo knife?
Scythe9 wrote:They don't need to see the enemy to be effective? Ok so how do they know where to fire.
How do mortar teams know where to fire if they don't see the enemy?
Or artillery crews?
Huh. Interesting...I guess they're not effective either, right?
Scythe9 wrote:small burst fire from the hip from 50 soldiers, i'm assuming they are on open field, where the bowman were more efective, so yes 150 shots every 1 second.
Actually, longbowmen weren't most effective "on an open field". That's where heavy cavalry, aka "knights" excelled. Longbowmen excelled in prepared fields. Look at Agincourt. The British effectively slaughtered French knights on an open field, simply because they had prepared positions and elevation and a muddy stretch leading to their positions to work with.
side arms are not for CC, thats why modern rifles are shorter, i agree that longer barrels aren't good in close quarters.
Actually, that's precisely what sidearms are for. They allow you to retain the use of an 'open hand', while still being able to effectively fight back.
And "modern rifles" aren't shorter.
Carbines are shorter.
DickBandit wrote:Actually, all of the guardsmen would see that us modern soldiers are treated like human beings (most of the time) and see that we actually care about each other. They would just run over to our side and join us, leaving only angry commissars.
You know, IG fluff isn't all it's cracked up to be - in the regiments, they care for each other. Read Abnett's stuff - specifically Gaunt's Ghosts.
well 40k stats say otherwise a lasgun is str 3 ap- a autogun ( basically a battlerifle/ assault rifle is str 3 ap- if i remember correctly) and I don't really see trained soldiers panic just because a battle buddy is hit with a pencil thin ray of light that causes a wound simiular to a rifle wound, maybe a momentary " holy #@$ whats that...ok base of fire ..Move!" at best
Now a casualty caused my a mass reactive .68 cal bolt round might be something different, but in combat you see all kinds of horrible things to think a army of modern troops would rout just because the enemy had lasers is kinda silly, it may be surprising but not terrifying, unless the weapons were like the ones the prawns had in district 9...now those were horrible!
But I am sensing a possible bit of trolling going on so I will pop smoke and call for retrieval...I have alot of Tau/orks to paint.
SCYTHE9: I understood your example but I think a few of the subsquent posters just kinda ran with the longbow thing, and its good to see the oldtimer military playing this game too. , our interceptor armor is actually pretty hard to penetrate not to mention just finding a good place to stab a modern US soldier that is not covered in Molle gear and mags and kit etc., makes you feel like a turtle. lol
mrsmith wrote:Well laser weapons in most scifi settings are pretty inferior to a modern day assault rifle in most ways (star trek, starwars) so...
Emphasis on laswer weapons from other series. Do 40k Guardsmen have blasters or phasers? No, they have lasguns. The other series mean nothing.
...ANd how the hell did we go to talking about longbowmen versus modern soldiers? When did this thread get moved to the fantasy forum? But yeah, SCYTHE9, do a quick google search. A swordsman may not be better than a modern rifleman, but if someone stabs you with a knife while you're wearing a bullet proof vest, unless the blade hits one of the ceramic trauma plates inside the vest itself. Ballistic vests are made out of fabric that diffues the impact of the bullet, and prevents it from penetrating, but it does knock the wind out of your cause you still take the kinetic energy. A knife is going to go right through that vest. And please, PLEASE do not cite CoD again. CoD may be fun and awesome game, but it is not realistic in the slightest.
A bullet proof vest is just that, bullet proof. Not knife proof.
Now can we go back to talking about 40k versus a modern army? I like this thread, and would prefer to not see it get locked.
Edit: Yeah, I doubt that it's going to be the fire from the Imperial Guardsmen that causes morale to break. If anything it's going to be the fact that they are such determinators that they keep coming no matter what gets thrown at them that would break morale. That and orbital bombardment and the like.
ANd DickBandit, yeah a Javelin would probably knock out a Leman Russ, the question is, can you take out all the Leman Russes before they overun your position? The answer in that case is 'no'. More importantly, Guardsmen are not idiots. Dogmatic, but not idiots. They will not be charging you so that you can mow them down with rifles. They will be acting like a modern military and digging in, while trying to get something that can kill the guys opposite them for them. You make it seem like it's going to be an action movie, with US Army soldiers gunning down Guardsmen left and right while the bodies pile up....it's not.
If the rifle is shorter is easy to move around, there is retractable rifle butts, i believe its calle like that in english, make it easier to move indoors. Just look at the P90, i know its not an assault rifle but its easier to use.
Again i posted a link with the strenghts of the different body armour types. You actually believe a vest designed to stop a bullet isn't capable to stop a knife, the sheer speed of the bullet....but this is way OT.
I'm, sorry, i made my piont , you disagree, let's not ruin the thread
=Head desk= And you notice, all the rankings are about BULLETS. Bullets != Knives. A bullet proof vest will not stop a knife. That's why they make stab proof vests that CAN stop a knife, and sometimes combine the two into one vest that can stop knives and bullets.
Just do a quick googles search. Here, I'll do it for you! You will see that bullet proof vests are not proof against knives. The slower speed of the knife plus its sharp point is in fact what makes it capable, the knife travels slow enough that it pushes the kevlar fibers out of the way, and pushes through the vest in a way that a bullet can't.
ChrisWWII wrote:=Head desk= And you notice, all the rankings are about BULLETS. Bullets != Knives. A bullet proof vest will not stop a knife. That's why they make stab proof vests that CAN stop a knife, and sometimes combine the two into one vest that can stop knives and bullets.
Just do a quick googles search. Here, I'll do it for you! You will see that bullet proof vests are not proof against knives. The slower speed of the knife plus its sharp point is in fact what makes it capable, the knife travels slow enough that it pushes the kevlar fibers out of the way, and pushes through the vest in a way that a bullet can't.
This
And don't think that "bullets travel so fast blah blah" makes them more powerful than knives. A 9mm parabellum of mass 8g and travelling at 360m/s has about 518kJ of kinetic energy. A knife with a mass of 500g only needs to travel at 45.5m/s to have the same (actually a bit more) kinetic energy and that is excluding the considerable mass of the attackers arm and body, etc. Also a knife point has considerably smaller surface area than a bullet so is more likely to penetrate.
As stated, how the two different types of vests work is quite different.
jonolikespie wrote:Plus there is the whole 8 year olds stripping and re assembling lasguns and running what other regiments consider basic training.
With regard to the eight years training in stripping a lasgun.
I've been eating soup all my life. I probably had 20 years of soup eating experience before a lot of you younger users were even born, and I've gone on eating soup ever since. I've eaten gallons of different soups in a bunch of different countries, and I've used all the major and variant methods of eating soup.
My daughter, only aged 11, is already just as good at eating soup as I am.
Wha? I don't think you read that properly. I'm saying that 8 year olds can strip lasguns not that they train for 8 years in stripping them. The quote in the IG codex (and possibly BRB or last editions one) about how "any cadian who can't field strip a lasgun by age 10 was born on the wrong planet" actually seems like a rather large understatement. From what I've read a teenage cadian is comparable to a fully trained standard guardsmen from generic regiment x.
SCYTHE9 wrote:Rifles have become shorter, bullpup design helps reducing average lenght.
Bullpups are harder to operate than regular rifles. Reloading becomes more awkward because of the new position of the magazine.
SCYTHE9 wrote:If the rifle is shorter is easy to move around, there is retractable rifle butts, i believe its calle like that in english, make it easier to move indoors. Just look at the P90, i know its not an assault rifle but its easier to use.
The problem with the P90 is the magazine placement. If a bullpup was awkward to reload, having the magazine on top is even more so.
Kanluwen wrote:
side arms are not for CC, thats why modern rifles are shorter, i agree that longer barrels aren't good in close quarters.
Actually, that's precisely what sidearms are for. They allow you to retain the use of an 'open hand', while still being able to effectively fight back.
And "modern rifles" aren't shorter.
Carbines are shorter.
Actually, sidearms are mostly used as a backup for the primary weapon in case it malfunctions. They are usually issued to special units like artillery crews and paratroopers or personal defense but mostly issued to officers and NCOs as a mark of authority. They can actually be used for close combat though and the open hand should be used to stabilize the weapon and help handle recoil.
Also, random fact: Decimate means to turn into tens, not to utterly annihilate.
jonolikespie wrote:Plus there is the whole 8 year olds stripping and re assembling lasguns and running what other regiments consider basic training.
With regard to the eight years training in stripping a lasgun.
I've been eating soup all my life. I probably had 20 years of soup eating experience before a lot of you younger users were even born, and I've gone on eating soup ever since. I've eaten gallons of different soups in a bunch of different countries, and I've used all the major and variant methods of eating soup.
My daughter, only aged 11, is already just as good at eating soup as I am.
Wha? I don't think you read that properly. I'm saying that 8 year olds can strip lasguns not that they train for 8 years in stripping them. The quote in the IG codex (and possibly BRB or last editions one) about how "any cadian who can't field strip a lasgun by age 10 was born on the wrong planet" actually seems like a rather large understatement. From what I've read a teenage cadian is comparable to a fully trained standard guardsmen from generic regiment x.
My point is that all skills have a maximum limit, and someone doesn't get better and better and better by practising more and more. The closer a person gets to the maximum possible level, the harder it is to improve any farther.
As such, this idea that unit X with four years training and experience is twice as good as unit Y with two years, isn't true.
WW2 studies show that combat skills peak after about 90 days of experience, on top of the basic training which lasted six weeks or so for standard infantry. After 90 days, care had to be taken to prevent soldiers from declining ineffectiveness though combat fatigue.
Ok can we please keep this on track, this isn't about bows, arrows or bulpup designs it's about 100 Cadian's vs 100 modern day soilders And tbh the only real argument the modern day inifintry has got is the javelin which is awesome but my reply to that would be that it isn't the most subtle of projectiles so the guardsmen could issue incoming before it gets there (let's hope they roll well)
I'd say IG vs modern would be very close but the IG have a slight advantage due to technology.
Candians vs modern though would have to go to the Cadians every time.
For what it's worth, the old Codex: Wargear (from 2nd edition) gave lasguns basically the same stats as an autogun, but increased it's armor penetration. The autogun was described as similar to a modern assault rifle, only shooting caseless ammunition which increased it's rate of fire and reliability.
So, using the transitive property, a lasgun is more reliable, has a faster rate of fire, penetrates armor easier, and carries a larger amount of ammunition than a modern assault rifle. I think that backs up my earlier hypothesis that the lasgun essentially fills the roles of a light SAW or other suppression fire weapon. (Keep in mind that a heavy stubber is closer to a modern heavy machine gun, and a heavy bolter is prbably closer to the bushmaster autocannon off the bradly).
As for commissars, much like their historical analoge they fulfill a variety of functions. the Red army kept them even as it became just as elite and motivated a fighting force as the wermacht or the US army. One of the main reasons the IG uses them is to make sure that troops from a different planet from high command stay loyal, stay on task, and follow procedure.
Polonius wrote:(Keep in mind that a heavy stubber is closer to a modern heavy machine gun, and a heavy bolter is prbably closer to the bushmaster autocannon off the bradly).
Sounds about right.
One interesting piece of tech that I've not heard the IG have (I'm well versed in fluff at all) is timed detonation of 'bolts' from the M307 autocannon: find the range, set it and fire. Explosive round detonates as soon as it reaches that distance; handy for taking out soft targets behind cover.
From what I recall, the Red Army actually got rid of its Commissars rather quickly, only using them for a few years before determining that they were either detrimental or at best ineffective. I'm not sure exactly what they did though, it seems they just acted to control the military officers into serving the interests of the civilian Communist party, being given the authority to veto orders and issue them, or something like that. I can see why it was abolished, though that bears little resemblance to 40K Commissars, which appear to be a mixture of disciplinary officers and "deliberate hindrance" to the operation of the regiment they're attached to...
In the Soviet Union, the political officer (or Zampolit) was there to ensure loyalty to the party, he also served to provide education to the men about the glories of socialism. However, he did not have the authority to overule the commander of the unit he was assigned to. What he COULD do however, was go over the commanders head, and go straight to Moscow and get them to order the commander around.
The image of a political officer mowing down his own men is largely a work of fiction.
According to wikipedia, they had veto power over orders. Of course, I don't know whether they could actually exercise that in practice, the entry is extremely vague beyond that.
Wikipedia wrote:The political commissar held military rank equalling that of the unit commander to whom he was attached; moreover, the commissar also had the military authority to countermand the unit commander’s orders when required.
It depends on which era you're talking about. In the pre-WW2 and purge era Soviet Army, the Zampolits held the authority to do as you say. They could countermand orders of the commanding officer, and such. However, after WW2, during the Cold War the zampolits were primarily responsible political supervision of the units they were assigned to. They could not countermand orders, but they did have a direct line to higher authority.
wikipedia wrote:In July 1941, consequent to the Red Army’s defeats at war’s start, the political commissar reappeared. The commissar had an influential role as a "second commander" within the military units. When this proved less-than-effective, in 1942 the political officer was much more firmly subordinated to commanding officers: the commissars' work was confined to non-combat functions, the term "commissar" itself was formally abolished, and at the company- and regiment-level, the pompolit officer was replaced with the zampolit (deputy commander for political work).
Commissars had the authority to override the officer they were attached to. Later political officers were less powerful, and not called commissars.
If you want to play semantics, then yes, Commissars had the ability to veto orders, and were essentially secondary commadners. However, the political officer in the Soviet military did not have that kind of power in any time period after the end of the 2nd world war.
I personally try to avoid the word 'Commissar' when it comes to talking about the Soviet military, simply because it's such a vague word. There were political commissars, military commissars, and that's not even going into what officers with the title 'Commissar' did in other militaries.
In the sense of being a morale booster and political offcer, the 40k Commissar is rather similar to later era Soviet political officer. However, as I understand, Commissars in the IG are outside the chain of command rather than part of it. They don't tend to be placed in charge of units....that's why Gaunt had such a rare rank.
Okay, I can't believe this thread got to 7 pages. Every single one of you guys missed the mark completely.
Realistically, this is what you're going to have. Your average U.S. soldier is probably around 6", 180 lbs, that's 1.8 meters and 82 kg to you poor saps who don't live in a country with a military worth its weight in kroot patties. With around 9 weeks in basic, and anywhere from a few more months to over a year in AIT, you're obviously looking at a highly intelligent, dome-capping piece of man meat. Now, talking about hardware here, the best modern infantry weapons ever to fall into the hands of our highly trained killers here is the M16A4 and M4A1. These baddies fire a 5.56mm round that could scramble any poor fella's brain like a giant egg beater.
Now, I don't want to get to drawn out into the details. But realistically, a modern US soldier could literally crush an Imperial Guardsman without even firing a bullet. This thread really is like mashed potatoes on your head kinda stupid. Taking into the account the weight of your standard US soldier, I'd say that he could probably crush the Imperial Guardsman even after a nasty bout of dysentery. Why? Imperial Guardsman are about 1 inch tall and are made out of got-damned plastic. Well hurr durr, what about pewter you say. A damned blow torch or an Easy Bake oven could melt those fags.
Can we lock this thread now? I didn't bother reading anything anyone said, but I am dumber for having known this thread existed to begin with.
If you want a 100 man unit the three rifle platoons plus three platoon HQs provide a total of 81 + 15 men equipped with
Six heavy (?) machine-guns (possibly 7.62mm ?)
18 grenade launchers (40mm underslung type)
18 light machine-guns (M249)
78 assault rifles (M4)
Grenades and bayonets are also carried but not listed. Some men may have a pistol.
If weapons from the company HQ and heavy weapons platoons are to be included, then grenade MGs, 50-cal MGs, 60mm and 81mm mortars are available.
They used very bad tactics in the Winter War as well
Apologies if this was already pointed out, but according to modern US army battle drills, the only way you will directly engage an opposing force is if you currently outnumber them 3-1. Any other situation you are advised to call support or disengage.
Haven't went through all of the pages but it's a bit funny as a european to see the faith many of you american posters have in your military given this scenario.
A lot has been said before but if I consider a cadian company against 100 US soldiers (since this seems to be the typical comparison) I think it would be a bloody mess with heavy casualties on both sides (granted that the US soldiers are forced to fight, i.e. no side retreats).
I think the US soldiers would have the initial tactical advantage and the natural reaction for the cadian officer would be to first estabilsh some battle positions and lock down the battlefield deploying heavy weaponry in strategic positions. Up until this point it's possible that a modern army would have some advantage.
Afterwards, I think the IG army would slowly grind down the modern army with use of the superior heavy and special weaponry. Both sides would probably take heavy losses. Realistically I think at some point the US infantry platoon would surrender instead of fighting to the last man something the IG forces would likely do if forced to.
If the US company should have chanses of winning I think they must be able to take out the IG officer(s) early on and then in the confusion among IG lines act quickly. Not impossible but I still consider my first scenario more likely.
Radical wrote:Okay, I can't believe this thread got to 7 pages. Every single one of you guys missed the mark completely.
Realistically, this is what you're going to have. Your average U.S. soldier is probably around 6", 180 lbs, that's 1.8 meters and 82 kg to you poor saps who don't live in a country with a military worth its weight in kroot patties. With around 9 weeks in basic, and anywhere from a few more months to over a year in AIT, you're obviously looking at a highly intelligent, dome-capping piece of man meat. Now, talking about hardware here, the best modern infantry weapons ever to fall into the hands of our highly trained killers here is the M16A4 and M4A1. These baddies fire a 5.56mm round that could scramble any poor fella's brain like a giant egg beater.
Now, I don't want to get to drawn out into the details. But realistically, a modern US soldier could literally crush an Imperial Guardsman without even firing a bullet. This thread really is like mashed potatoes on your head kinda stupid. Taking into the account the weight of your standard US soldier, I'd say that he could probably crush the Imperial Guardsman even after a nasty bout of dysentery. Why? Imperial Guardsman are about 1 inch tall and are made out of got-damned plastic. Well hurr durr, what about pewter you say. A damned blow torch or an Easy Bake oven could melt those fags.
Can we lock this thread now? I didn't bother reading anything anyone said, but I am dumber for having known this thread existed to begin with.
Radical wrote:Okay, I can't believe this thread got to 7 pages. Every single one of you guys missed the mark completely.
Realistically, this is what you're going to have. Your average U.S. soldier is probably around 6", 180 lbs, that's 1.8 meters and 82 kg to you poor saps who don't live in a country with a military worth its weight in kroot patties. With around 9 weeks in basic, and anywhere from a few more months to over a year in AIT, you're obviously looking at a highly intelligent, dome-capping piece of man meat. Now, talking about hardware here, the best modern infantry weapons ever to fall into the hands of our highly trained killers here is the M16A4 and M4A1. These baddies fire a 5.56mm round that could scramble any poor fella's brain like a giant egg beater.
Now, I don't want to get to drawn out into the details. But realistically, a modern US soldier could literally crush an Imperial Guardsman without even firing a bullet. This thread really is like mashed potatoes on your head kinda stupid. Taking into the account the weight of your standard US soldier, I'd say that he could probably crush the Imperial Guardsman even after a nasty bout of dysentery. Why? Imperial Guardsman are about 1 inch tall and are made out of got-damned plastic. Well hurr durr, what about pewter you say. A damned blow torch or an Easy Bake oven could melt those fags.
Can we lock this thread now? I didn't bother reading anything anyone said, but I am dumber for having known this thread existed to begin with.
Scenario - Can a child take down an Imperial Fleet?
Video evidence - A 5-year old walks into his father's room, and sees 30 or so BFG ships. Over the course of about 4 minutes. He smashes every ship.
Conclusion - A child can take down an imperial fleet.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ah, I have struck the killing blow to the thread.
Excellent.
So back on track, the 100 IGswould definately slowly out gun a typical 100 Marines. With the lasgun and all... Plus the damn las beam would'nt stop until it hit something and it travels in straight lines so any reasonably capable Guard could take them all out.
Its so hard to think that there is anyone that could come to think of the IG ever standing up to any modern army.
No it's not.
Take the average guardsman.
He's fought in numerous campaigns against the deadliest creatures in the galaxy. He uses superior equipment (lasgun > modern assault rifles, flak armor is MUCH better than modern body armor), is assisted by superior vehicles, calls in superior artillery, and has superior close air support (with the possible exception of the A10, but we'd have trouble maintaining air superiority enough to utilize it, if we could maintain any semblance of air superiority at all). He has space-based support, superior transport because of his space assets. He has fought far deadlier foes, and fighting humans is almost a break for him, nevermind humans whose armor can't even resist energy weapons like his lasgun, while flak armor is more than enough to protect him from most of our light infantry weapons.
Chapter Master Aeneas wrote:Im in college and I started the discussion started by maybe many IG fans is what would happen if they came here my friend says that 100 modern soilders v 100 guardsman in an open field that the imperial guard would have no significant advantage.
Open field? Guardsmen win. Without any cover to hide behind, the superior armor and firepower of the guardsmen, along with their extensive combat experience, would lead them to easy victory over their less experienced, technologically inferior foes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The_Entity wrote:So back on track, the 100 IGswould definately slowly out gun a typical 100 Marines. With the lasgun and all... Plus the damn las beam would'nt stop until it hit something and it travels in straight lines so any reasonably capable Guard could take them all out.
And our modern body armor isn't made to resist it, while flak armor is made to resist fragments and solid rounds as well as energy weapons. And it's immensely lighter than our modern body armor, affording the Guard superior endurance and mobility.
theduncan wrote:I know it was just 2 months, but by the last post the thread had really dried up and was pretty OT, so near-death is probably a better description.
The two main IG forces focused on in all the fluff, the Cadians and the Catachans, are both hardened to the core. The Cadians spend literaly their entire lives training and perfecting the art of war in all of its facets. They know how to react to every situation in every enviroment with any given weapon, imagine a spartan, but replace his life long training with spears and sheilds with life long training with lasguns and auto cannons, and replace his mere human foes with Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Chaos Marines, Eldar, Tau, and whatever else the Emperor wants him to fight. The end result is the perfect soldier by human standards, no man on earth could even try and compare them selves in martial proess to a Cadian, they would simply be overwellmed in every category possible. The Catachans are a little different but are in no way less deadly. 50% of all the babies born on Catachan die before they can walk, 50% of those babies die before they reach the age of 10. It takes a special kind of man to survive in Catachan, those that do survive are super buff, I think more buff then is physicaly possible for most on earth, extremly resourceful, quick and fast thinking survivors. They can survive on a planet where every single animal is carnivorus and every single plant is poisonus, death is litteraly around every corner, not only that, death is also the corner itself, and everything else around the corner is also death. A Catachan could break the neck of any modern day soldier using nothing but HIS OWN NECK. Given a few blades of grass and some dirt, 100 Catachans could disguise themslves AS THE OPEN FIELD!! What chance would antbody on earth have against a Catachan? None what so ever is the answer to that. A quick summary of US troops vs. Cadians, the US officers and NCOs are picked off by Cadian snipers before the US troops know the battle has even started. Confused and demoralized, the US troops tremble helplessly as the Cadians advance upon their position, picking them all off before they have gathered up enough witts to fire back, the whole engagement takes less than 30 seconds. Now for the Catachans, the US troops advance slowly across the open field, searching the area for the Catachans who were reported to be in the area. One soildier steps on a snare mine and several others rush to free him from the trap. It takes 6 men to finaly pry the snare open, which triggers the gernade attached to it, killing the injured man and all the others who had gone to his aid. The remaining soldiers continue, their nerves shaken greatly by the gruesome trap. They tread lightly now, watching each individual step they make to make sure they don't suffer the same fate. Many others fall victim to the snare mines, but their comrades now know better than to help them, the poison laced on each of the snares kills them within minutes. More still are killed by new traps which range from simple nails jutting out of the ground which penetrate through their boots, the poison they were dipped in killing them almost instantly, to land mines that detonate killing several men at a time. Less than half of the 100 soildiers remain, and their commanding officer orders a withdrawl, when his foot touches something warm. He looks down to see a pair of eyes staring right back at him. His scream is cut short by a knife plunged into the back of his neck, then the rest of the Catachans seem to rise from the ground and kill the few remaining soldiers with several well aimed shots from their lasguns. They conceal the bodies in a nearby ditch, reset their traps, and return to thier hiding places. That makes 327 kills for the day, it is 11 in the morning.
Okay maybee not brief but you get the idea. Perhaps I over did it a little to much, but the premise is still the same.
sourclams wrote:I think the 'leadership' factor is getting a bit underplayed here. I don't mean leadership in terms of who's got better sergeants, etc, but rather in terms of 'we lost 8/10 men and we're still charging with bayonets fixed'.
It's been a long, long time since two militaries of roughly equivalent technology level faced each other in open combat. By our standards, IG infantry are probably very near to fearless. Losses that we'd consider a horrific disaster (30%+) are probably within IG acceptable tolerances.
Probably? LOL, what's the average life expectancy of a guardsman again, 15 hours?
30% casualties would be a rousing success, probably too much of a success since the Administratum didn't plan on having to provide so many supplies and they all starve to death while the paperwork is being processed.
The average lifespan of a Guardsman is not fifteen hours. That novel was meant to be an example of the lifespan of a Guardsman at the absolute worst of times.
Fafnir wrote:Armour for the average gaurdsman is probably somewhat better than modern military armour. Either stronger or lighter, or a combination of both.
Yes. Flak armor is stronger, lighter, and covers omre of the body than modern body armor. Oh, and when I say it' slighter, I mean it's lighter even as it is covering more of the body. A full suit of flak armor (boots, greaves, front/back plate, gauntlets, pauldrons, and helmet) weighs less than the US Army's Improved Outer Tactical Vest by itself.
And it provides arguably better protection. The IOTV isn't intended to protect against lasguns for example, and flak armor is almost as good as carapace armor against shrapnel from fragmentation grenades and the like. And ontop of all of that, it's cheaper to make and easier to supply. Flak armor is pretty much flat out better than modenr body armor.
If modern nations could produce and use flak armor, they would in an INSTANT.
Yes, better. People forget that it's not that Guardsmen suck, Guardsmen are drawn from the elite of planets defense forces, and are relatively well equipped with a logisticians wet dream of a gun and tank, and a light, easy to manufacture, but still very strong. Guardsmen are BAMFs to a one.
The problem is, everything else they're fighting is so much more dangerous that it SEEMS like they suck.
ChrisWWII wrote:The average lifespan of a Guardsman is not fifteen hours. That novel was meant to be an example of the lifespan of a Guardsman at the absolute worst of times.
Which is pretty good. Imagine playing a FPS on its hardest difficulty and lasting 15 hours without dying? Yeah right!
15 hours was the average lifespan on that particular planet, which has been practically forgotten by everybody and gets no reinforcements aside from the company that gets dropped in thanks to a clerical error.
God, I just read through the first 2.5 pages of this thread and already my brain is fried.
Im gonna make my opinion quick.
Just like the innumerable Halo Spartan vs Space Marine threads, at the level the OP has described im gonna say it would be a 50/50 battle, for the reasons everybody else has said 5 times before.
No, it wouldn't be fifty fifty. If it was simply infantry versus infantry with no support weapons, Imperial Guard would win without a shadow of a doubt. Their training is equivalent or better, their experience is DEFINITELY better, and their equipment is indisputably better.
L_Dawg wrote:Training better? Harder maybe thanks to über strict instructors but maybe not better.
They are trained to maintain discipline in the face of an incoming charge of a veritable wall of screaming, heavily muscled greenskins aimed at killing them in a brutal, messy, and inevitably painful way. Greenskinned barbarians who take numerous shots to be killed and can even get up and continue fighting after what should be a mortal wound. Whose weapons provide tons of psychological and mental warfare, including warping a little green creature inside of someone so it has to crawl its way out of their innards, nevermind the ludicrously loud, rapid fire guns, the large quantities of explosive ordnance, and the sheer unnerving randomness of it all. And not only do they take all of this, standing and fighting with it, they do it as friggin' a day job. And, more often than not, win.
Yes, the Imperial Guard is generally trained better, and certainly more experienced, having fought and been trained to fight far tougher enemies than mere humans in inferior armor with inferior weapons.
All these talks of guns and almost no talk of armor, which to me seems to be what is the main edge the IG soldier would have.
Assuming that modern day weapon and lasguns have roughly the same stats (Str 3 AP-), the debate about which weapon is best is really just going in circle.
That being said, IG flak armor has a 5+sv. This is enough to stop lasgun fire... but it also stops those AP6 weapon and this is where things get interesting. If we look at guns that have AP6, we have pretty much all ork slugga and shoota... and I'm not a gun freak, but those guns are shooting massive bullets, the kind that RL machine gun would fire.
I would think you're looking at modern day armor having a value of sv6+ (it's certainly not at 4+ - no way modern day armor could stop bolter rounds if those actually existed) - simply put, I don't think modern day armor would do anything against orkish weaponry, will IG flak armor has been known to stop it.
This conversation is a bit frustrating mainly because well... the 40k ruleset doesn't give enough information or ruleset about different weapons. Str 3 AP- Rapid Fire is both a lasgun and a stubgun... but let's face it, in 'real world term', those guns would have different range, different rate of fire, different ammo capability, different reload time, different stopping power, etc. However, in the macro scale that 40k represent, those don't really matter.
That being said, if you breach out into the W40K RPG published by FFG (Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch) you suddenly get a lot more information. You get to see a much more 'precise' view of how good each piece of gear is.
And ironically, using those rules, than it becomes a non-contest... modern weaponry, being 38k years old, would have the Primitive rule (meaning armor value of non primitive armor is doubled against it) and modern armor would have the Primitive rule as well (Meaning armor is halved when used to absorb damage from non-primitive weapon). This is the clever way the system use to model planets that are backwater and use older make of guns (or even flat out bow and arrow) without having to print an entire book with just guns in it.
And yes, in short, the guardman's lasgun would tear through the US Soldier's primitive kevlar vest with little difficulty, while the US soldier's primitive M16 would be hard pressed to do much more than comestic damage to the IG's flak armor.
And it gets just silly if you throw in Space Marine in the mix
Lasgun would be an amazing weapon in our age, a weapon that never jams, has super high ammunition capacity (and can be recharged) and powerful.
That's before considering other infantry weapons use by the IG.
I think people are underestimating the power of a lasgun. Lexicanum states "The lasgun uses the same basic technology and operates along the same lines as other las weapons, emitting a beam of focused light. The high amount of energy in the beam causes the immediate surface area of a target to be vaporized in a small explosion"
The rest of the article is here Now imagine modern soldiers facing fully/semi automatic weapons capable of vaporising parts of their bodies and setting fire to them too. Flak armour appears to be capable of defending from these blasts (I think?), but even if it isn't the modern troops are pinned down by far superior weapons fire and are probably not feeling too happy either.
The roleplaying books do go into a bit more information. The point remains that Guardsmen still have: better armor, better guns, better training than the average human army today. In an one squad on squad firefight, it'd be closer maybe...
But once the scale goes up, and the IG gets to bring its ull power to the table, the battle for modern militaries goes straight down hill.
ChrisWWII wrote:The roleplaying books do go into a bit more information. The point remains that Guardsmen still have: better armor, better guns, better training than the average human army today. In an one squad on squad firefight, it'd be closer maybe...
But once the scale goes up, and the IG gets to bring its ull power to the table, the battle for modern militaries goes straight down hill.
More like straight down a bottomless chasm if you ask me.
BEcause imperial guard are so reliant on orders, then it depends whether the 100 guardsmen includes any officers. If it does, then to think of it in gaming terms, the officers would orders these 2 combined squads of guardsmen to FRF!SRF! It also begs the question, do the guardsmen or modern soldiers have any special weapons? If each squad of 10 guardsmen has a flamer and a heavy bolter, it would make a big difference. The same applies to thhe modern soldiers
I'd rather have one heavy bolter than a heavy machine gun. Imperial Guard are not completely reliant on orders, remember rule != fluff, and we're talking fluff here. The orders help them out, but they're not required for anything. The IG could still kick ass and take names if their officers were dead.
Remember, IG are trained so that when lacking orders, they're to assume they've been ordered to advance. And they will keep advancing, past casualties modern forces would consider horrendous.
ChrisWWII wrote:I'd rather have one heavy bolter than a heavy machine gun. Imperial Guard are not completely reliant on orders, remember rule != fluff, and we're talking fluff here. The orders help them out, but they're not required for anything. The IG could still kick ass and take names if their officers were dead.
Remember, IG are trained so that when lacking orders, they're to assume they've been ordered to advance. And they will keep advancing, past casualties modern forces would consider horrendous.
Basically, the Imperial Guard is, if their officers are dead, supposed to take initiative anyway, not retreat.
But the quad .50 isn't an anti-infantry weapon. .50 cal is overkill for infantry, you shoot .50s at material targets. The quad .50 you posted looks to be an AA position.
Even if you do turn it on infantry, how can you get a higher rate of fire than this?
They did turn it on infantry back in WWII IIRC from a book. Apparently, they trained it on German snipers firing from a tree and tore down the tree from the trunk with the snipers.
And the 4 M2s fired 30 or so rounds a second I think.
It says on wikipedia that its use against infantry increased in the latter stage of the war. The Germans used a quad 20mm against infantry too like in Saving Private Ryan.
Honestly our military would lose bad in a 100 man vs. 100 man battle. A hundred man unit in Imperial guard is not even a single full troop choice. (They range from 117 to 147 at max size depending on if you fill out the conscripts unit to 50 man or not. And not including commissars and the like.)
First the point on the lasgun and flak armor they have vs. our standard gear has already been made to give them an advantage... but lets look at the composition of a standard troop choice for IG that would be 100 men, that does not know what it would be facing. (Note I am not including conscripts)
Platoon command squad: (6 avoided heavy weapon to give them surgical strike tactics for command)
1 platoon commander with boltgun
1 commissar with boltgun
1 guardsman with heavy flamer
2 guardsman with sniper rifles
1 guardsman with meltagun
2 infantry squads: (11 man each)
1 sergeant w/plasma pistol
1 commissar w/bolt pistol and power weapon
6 guardsmen with lasguns
1 guardsman with flamer
1 heavy weapons team (2 man) with missile launcher
2 infantry squads: (10 man each)
1 sergeant w/either bolt pistol
6 guardsmen with lasguns
1 guardsman with sniper rifle
1 heavy weapons team (2 man) with heavy bolter
1 infantry squad: (10 man)
1 sergeant w/bolt pistol
6 guardsmen with lasguns
1 guardsman with meltagun
1 heavy weapons team (2 man) with autocannon
special weapons squad 1: (6 man)
3 guardsmen with lasguns
2 guardsmen with sniper rifles
1 guardsman with meltagun
special weapons squad 2: (6 man)
3 guardsmen with lasguns
2 guardsmen with flamers
1 guardsman with gernade launcher
2 heavy weapon squads: (6 man total each)
3 heavy weapons teams with heavy bolters
2 heavy weapon squads: (6 man total each)
3 heavy weapons teams with autocannons
1 heavy weapon squad: (6 man total)
3 heavy weapons teams with lascannons
That is a standard 100 man platoon (designed for an unknown enemy pressence, so they have weapons for antitank as well as anti-infantry.)
you are looking at the following firepower:
9 leader with special pistols/boltguns
1 guardsman with heavy flamer
3 guardsman with meltagun
4 guardsman with flamer
6 guardsman with sniper rifle
1 guardsman with gernade launcher
8 heavy weapons teams with heavy bolters
7 heavy weapons teams with autocannons
3 heavy weapons teams with lascannons
2 heavy weapons teams with missile launcher
that is some scary weaponry to face in addition to all the lasgun fire that is not only vaporizing your friends body parts but setting them on fire.
I feel that people are forgetting another important fact:
The cost of training, supplying, and maintaining all of these troops. It costs around $25,000 to put an American soldier through the US Army's bootcamp, counting food, ammunition, weapons, lodging, and training used all throughout the experience.
Additionally, the US government would be spending thousands of dollars to equip these soldiers, and feed them while they're out in the field, and then on top of all that, add the pay that each soldier is bringing home.
Modern day soldiers are expensive.
Meanwhile, for $25, you can get ten guardsmen complete with any weapon their little hearts could desire, armour, and leadership. Not including shipping.
Okay, here we go. I hate for my first post to be like this, but I really don't think everyone understands the true scale of Warhammer 40k here. If there are heavy weapons involved in a 100 vs 100 battle then the IG win hands down. A single heavy bolter, firing extremely fast 1.00 caliber highly explosive rounds would send any of our soldier fleeing for their goddamn lives.
Also the IG flak armor is made from materials we could not dream of.
"A flak vest consists of a skeleton of lightweight, flexible metal. This skeleton is then wrapped in multiple layers of a high-tensile fabric that is the main protective component of the armour. After multiple layers of fabric are affixed to the skeleton,the vest is given its toughened outer shell."
While this sounds weak against guns that can tear someone in half remember that our body armor for our soldiers nowadays is simply a metal plate wrapped in kevlar. Surely the metal and high tensile fabric the IG are wearing is 1000X stronger than our primitive materials. I mean they've had like what 38 thousand years of warfare and exploration/scientific discovery to come up with better materials. I'm sure it could stop hundreds of our tiny bullets coming from our m16's. Each of these Imperial Guard soldiers goes through training WAY harder than what our soldiers get. Read some of the lore, these aren't conscripts. They get trained for months and months, and go through intense physical and mental conditioning. Also they come from a world and life MUCH harder than ours. They live in a brutal dictatorship bordering on tyrannical. Working off the backs of the lower class. These lower class who join the Imperial Guard to escape that life are extremely strong, tough, and more religiously fanatic than anyone on our planet. They have been dogmatically phsycoconditioned to have complete faith in the Emperor and grew up in an oppressive society completely supporting this viewpoint.
Next, Lore on the lasguns states a single lasgun shot can punch through 3 feet of concrete... a 5.56mm or 7.62mm bullet would ricochet off without even denting it. Their weapons are more effective, their ammunition lighter, the lasgun is much more reliable. Then you move on to heavy weapons and it's a complete slaughter.
Now some of you have been talking about tank specifications. But no one is really taking into account that the Leman Russ battle tanks are not made of steel, they are made of ceramite and admantium! The front armor of a Leman Russ tank is "14" in the game, and the front armor of a Land Raider is also "14". In the lore, and the game, and pretty much everything that has to do with warhammer 40k nothing touches the landraider. Missiles bounce harmlessly from it, even lascannon shots are 90% of the time deflected from it's hull. It is wide enough to cover two full highway lanes, and it's length is massive. Now back to a Leman Russ tank, even if only it's front armor is 14, take it's size and compare it to a landraider, now realize how large the bore of the barrel of the battle cannon is. It would literally shred any sort of american tank, from any angle. Including in this it's advanced autotargeters, its auspex (A scanner with an effectiveness beyond any radar technology we have) and dare I say it, the hint of a machine spirit, would eat our tanks for breakfast.
Now finally from a leadership/psychology/tactics perspective. The Imperial Guard Infantry fight in a basic squad/platoon structure. Everyone thinks the Imperial Guard are a one trick pony, simply clogging the enemies treads with their organs and rushing troops around. Reading the lore they actually have brilliant military commanders and officers leading them. Officers trained for months (some may even say years depending on rank) on the art of war. Information on war that has been gleaned from forty thousand years of warfare and strife. Sure we see terrible tactics at a squad based level, but if you see the big picture Imperial Commanders are tactical genius's. And I believe the experienced commanders would not be stupid enough to use the tactics that are so commonplace in million man battles against horrific monstrosities against us. I believe they'd be intelligent enough to realize what advantages they have over us. (Everything. Weapons, vehicles, transportation, logistics, morale.) And use them to defeat us easily.
Lastily I'd just like to throw in a quick word about fear and morale. The Imperial Guard face horrible things and accept horrendous casualties as commonplace.
If an American soldier is wounded, his friends will crowd around him, trying to treat the wound, drag him back to a better position, the officers would call for a medivac and dedicate resources to trying to save that man. The Imperial Guard would just rip his identification tags from his neck and keep going. If someone even stopped for a second to say goodbye to their friend the Commissars would threaten them to keep fighting.
Well that's it. And just for fun I think I'm going to make up a roughly general idea of what an American soldiers statistics would be in the Warhammer 40k game
WS: 2 BS: 3 S: 2 T: 2 W: 1 I: 3 A: 1 LD: 5 SV: 6+
M16 Range: 24'' S: 2 AP: - Type: Rapid Fire
Sorry if I came off as rude, I'm tired and I had a lot to cover.
I'd like to point out that the officers and commissars would probably be the first people to get killed on an Imperial side, seeing as though they stand out so much.
L_Dawg wrote:I'd like to point out that the officers and commissars would probably be the first people to get killed on an Imperial side, seeing as though they stand out so much.
This was pointed out, and out answer is still: so what? Imperial Guardsmen won't stop if their Commissar is killed (depending on who the Commissar is, they may even be joyful). The point is though that even if their officers are dead, Imperial Guardsmen will keep advancing until told otherwise by the proper authority.
Smitty0305 wrote:comparing the modern military to a sci fi table top board game is a complete utter waste of time imo.
I'm bored and this is an amusing discussion. The thread title is very clear as to what we're talking about, if you think it's a waste of time, why are you reading it?
Quad 50s are all sorts of cool. But, what about the XM1028 Cannister Round? Or, the classic "Beehive" rounds from Vietnam?
Anyways. Sure, the Guard are (supposed to) advance when there is any question as to what to do, and if their officers and NCOs are killed, they'll advance. Sure, that's cool and all. But.....
....what good is advancing forward without direction? As in, what good is an uncoordinated advance? Furthermore, most NATO countries have doctrines in place to emphasize maneuver, both on the offense and on the defense. So, without officers, a Guard unit advances forward.....into a crossfire where they get ripped apart. By and large, the Guard standard doctrine does not emphasize maneuver. Properly executed maneuver is a force multiplier. The Guard does not rely on force multipliers, it relies on brute force.
Last, dudeeaterkiller, your first post is flat-out nonsense that bear as much relation to the reality of war as the clueless crap that Games Workshop's writers spew forth. In fact, its somewhat obvious that you've bought in wholesale to GW's propaganda, which as far as I can tell, has only a casual relation to reality, and is based off of movies and video games. I would advise you to do some actual, academic research on warfare, instead of relying on your misconceptions and the filth vomited forth from GW.
They would be under the direction of their sergeants, connected by a vox net. The line of succession is very clearly determined in an IG army just like in a modern army, with senior NCO becoming the next officer.
Imperial Guard have better armour, better weaponry, greater determination, better technology overall, and better training on average (obviously it depends on regiment). Their tactics are different sure, but Imperial Guard regiments are trained for every environment, perhaps specialising in a particular one.
Ribon Fox wrote:IG would win, they have 38k years of more fighting than todays troops, plus the LRBT will just steam roll any thing we have, the Vendetta will blow our tanks to dust and any other goodie you can think of. The Guard just have more toys than our boys and they know how to use them better.
Don't get me worng, we'll give it a go but in the end the IG are just more hard core.
38k years of dogmatically stale and never improving tactics which rely on, at best WW2 era strategies, and at worst medieval battle tactics (let's all line up and then trade shots).
A modern military, from a more advanced country would wipe the walls with the IG. Better equipment and support structures, better training, better tactics, etc.
Officers trained for months (some may even say years depending on rank) on the art of war. Information on war that has been gleaned from forty thousand years of warfare and strife. Sure we see terrible tactics at a squad based level, but if you see the big picture Imperial Commanders are tactical genius's. And I believe the experienced commanders would not be stupid enough to use the tactics that are so commonplace in million man battles against horrific monstrosities against us. I believe they'd be intelligent enough to realize what advantages they have over us. (Everything. Weapons, vehicles, transportation, logistics, morale.) And use them to defeat us easily.
Take the modern US military as an example. IG train for months and maybe even a few years? Ok, the average US officer has trained a minimum of 4 years before he even gets the lowest level butter bars. Weapons? How so, modern cruise missle, laser designation, vastly superior air support (A-10 >> then a wing of anything the guard has), guns that shoot around corners, dialed airburst underslung grenade launchers, drone support, forward air controllers, tanks that are over 20 years old and still can do 65 up and down hills and yet accurately land a round on a target, stealth fighters...
Logistics? You mean, oh good grief, the warp sucks everything into oblivion? Morale? Yeah, the same kind of morale that involves holding a gun to guys heads to make them fight (i.e. that's what comissars do, also, study your own history, forced conscription armies have NEVER had equivalent morale to all volunteer armies, this is exactly why the US does not force it's citizens to serve in the armed forces).
They may have seen crazy aliens, I'll give them that, but it's not much more horrific than war already is.
bleh why do you guys keep talking about what you read in some book as to what and how said gun/armor works.
Fluff = crap
It will change with every writer that picks up a pin to tell his 40k story.
In game terms the IG are so much weeker then any mordern day army it would be almost murder for the US army to fight them.
Str 3 auto gun
vs The IG have some armor....that I cant see being any better then our own. In game terms
Str 3 Las gun.
Its all the same other then we win as the IG have no clue how to fight a real war.
It will come down to training and the mighty leadership.
And from how the guard play in game, there training sucks.
And iv never seen any guard unit do anything in game, that a modern day army could not do 10x better in the real world.
So the IG leadership seems to suck as well.
We win they lose, and lose bad.
And then we back engineer all there las guns and kick the crap out of the next 40k army that lands.
Because we unlike everyone in the IPoM, we can think out of the box.
Is this argument still about 100 marines versus 100 Imperial Guard? Or has it changed to a discussion on what would happen if The Imperium ever sent a force of Imperial Guard to conquer us? Either way, an equivalent force of Imperial Guard are in every way superior to our 'modern' army, barring basic training.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Snogs wrote:bleh why do you guys keep talking about what you read in some book as to what and how said gun/armor works.
Fluff = crap
It will change with every writer that picks up a pin to tell his 40k story. In game terms the IG are so much weeker then any mordern day army it would be almost murder for the US army to fight them. Str 3 auto gun vs The IG have some armor....that I cant see being any better then our own. In game terms Str 3 Las gun.
Its all the same other then we win as the IG have no clue how to fight a real war.
It will come down to training and the mighty leadership. And from how the guard play in game, there training sucks. And iv never seen any guard unit do anything in game, that a modern day army could not do 10x better in the real world. So the IG leadership seems to suck as well.
We win they lose, and lose bad. And then we back engineer all there las guns and kick the crap out of the next 40k army that lands. Because we unlike everyone in the IPoM, we can think out of the box.
Well, seeing as how the only thing we have to go on is the fluff, it's not crap. In game rules? A lasgun is VASTLY superior to ANY modern day rifle. You're average lasgun is more powerful, more efficient and more accurate. Every Guard soldier wears armour that could protect him from our firepower.
You can't use in-game rules for an army that has no rules.
Please, tell us what a 'real war' is?
Well, if you insist that it will come down to training and leadership, then I guess the US has better training overall. Leadership is a no contest. Imperial Guard Leadership is better. End of. Could the US military fight battles against highly advanced xenos involving millions of troops across an entire planet? No.
I'm sorry, are you saying that the US could DEFEAT THE IMPERIUM? Wow. Are you out of you're fething mind? That's American arrogance at it's best. As soon as they land a single company of Space Marines, or a single regiment of Imperial Guard, we're .
Maniac_nmt wrote:38k years of dogmatically stale and never improving tactics which rely on
Technically, it's 28k years of tactical development, and then 10k years of sterility. Keep in mind the Imperium is a mere 10,000 years old. And even then, it's not that they're tactically stale so much as they've had so much experience that they have already written the book on military tactics anyway (the Tactica Imperialis, which is more of a rough guide compared to the Codex Astartes) and most of the time it works.
Maniac_nmt wrote:A modern military, from a more advanced country would wipe the walls with the IG.
Which we aren't.
Maniac_nmt wrote:Take the modern US military as an example. IG train for months and maybe even a few years?
IG officers from the Schola Progenium train from infancy to adulthood just like all other members of that organization, which produces the best of the best of any particular field. For the rest of the mperium, it depends on the planet.
Maniac_nmt wrote:Weapons? How so, modern cruise missle
IG has it That's basically what the Manticore/Deathstrike is, amongst other weapons.
Maniac_nmt wrote:laser designation
IG either has it or does better anyway with orbital sighting.
Maniac_nmt wrote:vastly superior air support (A-10
I'm a HUGE A-10 fan, but even an A-10 wwould be hard pressed to survive against the Aeronautica Imperialis. With air superiority-- which we wouldn't have with our laughably inefficient and technologically backwards (in comparison) aircraft-- it can do a lot of damage, but without... it'd struggle to survive. Kinda like IRL, but at least IRL our opponents tend not to have air superiority to begin with these days.
Imperium has that. (it's advanced and not given to most guardsmen sure, but I could say the same thing about our modern army)
Maniac_nmt wrote:drone support
Imperium has that (servitors are effectively used as such)
Maniac_nmt wrote:forward air controllers
Imperium has that (certain imperial infantrymen are trained as such, and any aircraft or even orbital craft can do it),
Maniac_nmt wrote:tanks that are over 20 years old and still can do 65 up and down hills and yet accurately land a round on a target,
Imperium has it and better (the Leman Russ is generally superior to the Abrams, while being older. Same speed, superior armaments and armor, and for some regiments, superior electronics).
Maniac_nmt wrote:stealth fighters...
Stealth does not work against superior avionics, which is why stealth must constantly race to keep up and ahead of avionics equipment.
Maniac_nmt wrote:Logistics? You mean, oh good grief, the warp sucks everything into oblivion?
Not as often as the internet makes it out to be.
Maniac_nmt wrote:Morale? Yeah, the same kind of morale that involves holding a gun to guys heads to make them fight
Only for some regiments. Cadians and Catachan don't need a commissar to tell them to fight, they'd probably think fighting human soldiers is a vacation compared to warfare against their usual enemies.
Maniac_nmt wrote:They may have seen crazy aliens, I'll give them that, but it's not much more horrific than war already is.
Says the man that hasn't seen an alien teleport into his friend's chest, tear itself out,a nd then jump out and eat the face of another friend, all the while this gigantic horde of brutal barbarians is taking every bullet you shoot and still running at you wanting nothing more than to tear you limb from limb while you struggle to get your bayonet on in time so that you might stand a chance of taking a few down before you're killed in a messy and painful way.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Snogs wrote:The IG have some armor....that I cant see being any better then our own.
Then you'd be wrong. Even IF it is equal in terms of its ability to reject bullets (there is no reason to believe this given the lore), it's lighter while covering more of the body and is designed to work against energy weapons as well, which our armor isn't. So lasguns would burn right through our armor, making it completely pointless, while their armor would work quite damned well.
I mean hell, Ork weapons are high caliber weapons with explosive rounds, and flak armor blocks THOSE a third of the time. Ork weapons do FAR more damage than modern assault rifles and flak armor holds up fine against them.
A fluff vs. real world argument is purely speculation and intended for fun. Why people are getting their panties in a wad is beyond me. American arrogance against the Imperium!? Wha!? Why is this offensive to anyone? Of course Americans would wipe the ground with them, the IG exist on paper and Americans soldiers are real with real weapons... I could beat the entire Imperial Guard just using a matchstick...
Anyway...
It would depend completely on which 100 Guardsmen, which 100 modern day soldiers you'd choose and the location. Location is a great equalizer and shouldn't be discounted.
When you get down to numbers that small anything goes really.
That said, a straight up mono-y-mono fight on a desert plain with an overcast day... yadayadayada. I think the Guard would win. The Imperial Guard is not a PDF force, sometimes I think people get the two confused.
The Lasers in 40k aren't merely flashlights... 1 mw of power in a laser is equal to 200 grams of explosive. There are no specifics to the power of the Lasgun in 40k so I'm left to guess here. Modern day soldiers and operatives have very primitive body armor, but would be of little use against a high powered laser.
The armor worn by the IG is at least equal to our modern day armor so should have a fair chance at stopping low caliber kinetic rounds.
Here is where location and training can be a great equalizer. Both the IG and moderns are Human so CQB might be fought on fairly equal terms.
The thing is though, and here's where it gets sticky... Many IG units are used to fighting (those units that survive anyway) in a manner totally foreign to modern troops. Imagine fighting for years and years against forces we simply can't comprehend often times equipped with less than stellar equipment. Those IG veterans would be truly fearsome opponents psychologically.
But, again it depends on the troops selected and the location of the fight.
The thing is, even if it is equal in protective value (there's no real reason to believe this...), flak armor is lighter despite covering more of the body than our modern body armor.
Imperium has that. (it's advanced and not given to most guardsmen sure, but I could say the same thing about our modern army)
My understanding is that the US military is in the process of "fixing" this. They're somewhat rare at the moment (they've just come out of testing), but it'll probably be a vastly different story in a few years as mass production of the weapons is just about to start.
As for the rest, I'd rate the modern US military as better in organization and tactical flexibililty. But we're talking millenia of technological differences between the two as far as equipment is concerned. Just because you can't *see* something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. There are no doubt a whole host of other things involved that any modern student of the military would assume are present and yet are ignored in the game either because they're automatically assumed under the rules (for instance, why the Eldar are the only race that get anything resembling ECM, via their holo-fields; everyone else probably already has similar gear, but the Eldar stuff is light-years ahead of everyone elses', and thus the only one that needs special rules to set it apart), or because this is Warhammer 40K and not Advanced Squad Leader In The Future.
Oh no, all those things I mentioned really are there.
Skull Servitors can and are equipped with weapons and cameras and made to deliver precision strikes against enemies. Hell at least one example almost assassinated Ciaphas Cain, and would have succeeded if his plot armor / luck / attentiveness / paranoia weren't all so refined.
Melissia wrote:The thing is, even if it is equal in protective value (there's no real reason to believe this...), flak armor is lighter despite covering more of the body than our modern body armor.
Is the IG stuff lighter? A full set of IBA with DAPS and inserts tops out at 33 lbs or so. Still, that level of protection is not universal.
Melissia wrote:The thing is, even if it is equal in protective value (there's no real reason to believe this...), flak armor is lighter despite covering more of the body than our modern body armor.
Is the IG stuff lighter? A full set of IBA with DAPS and inserts tops out at 33 lbs or so. Still, that level of protection is not universal.
Yep.
A full set of Imperial Guard Flak Armor-- boots, gauntlets/bracers, front/back plates and abdomen protection, greaves, pauldrons (shoulderpads), and helmet-- weighs 11kg or about 24 pounds. Believe me, Guard Flak Armor, if it was discovered by our modern armies somehow, would be a DREAM armor for them.
Snogs wrote:There are real reasons why we stopped fighting like they did in WW1.
Because we don't have the same kinds of enemies we did in WW1/2 with the same equipment, experience, and resources we had then.
The only IG army that really represents WW1 would be DKoK, and even then only defensively with their trench fighting. At WORST, they'd be more comparable to WWII armies even then many IG regiments are closer to modern armies than you think.
Melissia wrote:The thing is, even if it is equal in protective value (there's no real reason to believe this...), flak armor is lighter despite covering more of the body than our modern body armor.
Is the IG stuff lighter? A full set of IBA with DAPS and inserts tops out at 33 lbs or so. Still, that level of protection is not universal.
Yep.
A full set of Imperial Guard Flak Armor-- boots, gauntlets/bracers, front/back plates and abdomen protection, greaves, pauldrons (shoulderpads), and helmet-- weighs 11kg or about 24 pounds. Believe me, Guard Flak Armor, if it was discovered by our modern armies somehow, would be a DREAM armor for them.
Do all IG have this? It seems what you are talking about is what the Kasrkins or Stormtroopers wear. At least if you go by the figures. If so, then to the OP's topic it really depends on the troops selected as I mentioned.
And YEAH. It would be a dream armor then... I've worn a full set of MTV for a week and it kicked my butt and I still got hurt. What I would have given for a set of flak and a Lasgun... lol.
Why is there no discussion of communication? What does the IG company have in the way of communication vs. a company of US marines. If you have to blob together in a wave then its WWI and you end up like in WWI, dead in a field from machine gun fire.
Uhlan wrote:Do all IG have this? It seems what you are talking about is what the Kasrkins or Stormtroopers wear. At least if you go by the figures. If so, then to the OP's topic it really depends on the troops selected as I mentioned.
And YEAH. It would be a dream armor then... I've worn a full set of MTV for a week and it kicked my butt and I still got hurt. What I would have given for a set of flak and a Lasgun... lol.
Not all IG has this. For example, Catachan really do basically just wear a flak shirt and maybe a jacket over it and some flak pants (which wouldn't be as good as a hardened plate of flak armor), they're a rather lightly armored group. DKoK wear a lighter version than Cadian armor which is a flak trenchcoat with chestplate basically, it's more mobile than most flak armor and has fewer holes but slightly less protection due to having fewer hard areas. But this description is representative of Cadian style flak armor.
And no, what Stormtroopers wear is carapace armor. Carapace armor is so effective that it can prevent penetration of what basically amounts to a .75 caliber rocket propelled armor piercing cannon frequently enough to be considered a useful countermeasure to it, whereas flak armor is useless against the same ammunition.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote:Why is there no discussion of communication? What does the IG company have in the way of communication vs. a company of US marines. If you have to blob together in a wave then its WWI and you end up like in WWI, dead in a field from machine gun fire.
It depends on the regiment. But on average, IG regiments have squad-based comm-beads, with sergeants having connections to their platoon captain and other sergeants, captains having connections upwards of that, etc through the chain of command, with each member capable of contacting further up in an emergency. Each squad has a voxcaster which can radio secure transmissions anywhere in a sizeable location.
This coming from Dark Heresy and the various Guard books, especially the Cain books (Cain stating that these things were very standard across the Imperial Guard).
Frazzled wrote:Why is there no discussion of communication? What does the IG company have in the way of communication vs. a company of US marines. If you have to blob together in a wave then its WWI and you end up like in WWI, dead in a field from machine gun fire.
Well, since not all variables were considered in the OP's topic I couldn't elaborate.
It all boils down to location and which troops are to be considered. This opens up a huge can of worms as your question suggests.
Perhaps it would have been better to say a light company of US Marines VS. 100 Cadian Stormtroopers on earth if you see my meaning.
If the above was in fact the case, then of course the moderns would win as they would have operable sat com, horizon to horizon com, radio or heck, cell phones... the Cadians would have nothing...
@Melissa
Well, if IG flak armor can't stop a bolter round I don't want it... pfft...
Lets say we take the US army, a single regiment, armour, air support, everything they would have on a large scale operation and put them in different environments against the Imperial Guard equivalent.
For example, take the marines and put them in a jungle environment against an equivalent force of Catachans.
I can imagine it being like Predator, the marines would be annihilated. Catachans are highly specialised and an equivalent force would be highly experienced and have all the right equipment.
Take the same force of marines and place them in a city versus some Cadians. This would be a closer fight, both forces are more equally skilled in the built-up area, but again, considering Cadians are trained from an early age to defend their cities and are considered to be the best Imperial Guard, they would win on that alone.
Chapter Master Aeneas wrote:Im in college and I started the discussion started by maybe many IG fans is what would happen if they came here my friend says that 100 modern soilders v 100 guardsman in an open field that the imperial guard would have no significant advantage.
Let's see:
Imperial Guard use armor that's tough like 2x today's toughest Kevlar armor.
Lasgun, that makes your limb disappear if you don't have any protection at all. And that makes small plasma explosion per impact.
Some Guardsman know's from age of 5 to dismantle and have their own Lasgun.
Some Guardsman prefer close combat, any modern day solder sucks in this.
Lasguns can be recharged on sunlight and cannot be jammed. Longlas have range about 1500-2000km 100% kill shot.
Imperial Guard have zeal and fight for the Emperor, any modern day solder is just basic YAHOOO!!! who fights for money above all else...
I will not compare tanks at all, or artillery....
Nuff said...
Thunder555 wrote:I'd say that soldiers are soldiers even in future, so it would be about the equipment. Lasgun vs moder rifle.. I'd say lasgun wins. If it didn't, why the hell would they use them after 40000 years?
Logistics. One of the biggest advantages of the lasgun is that it doesn't fire ammuntion, it can simply be recharged from nearly any power source.
IG armour can give some protecting from genestealers too (with 6's ) and they can punch through tanks. I doubt modern armours can offer much protection from knives without hindering your movements.
So yeah.. IG wins.
Modern militaries dont' worry about knives for the same reason they dont' worry about stopping crossbow bolts: they're rarely encountered in battle.
Well, not with the scale of modern battles, but with all the bunkers in WWII, and all the millions of infantry, they came in handy lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I think that the REAL question would be: would Chuck Norris take part in the fight?
And I have seen some comparisons of armour, no vehicles, just infantry.
And modern Flak armour would be the same as sci-fi flak armour, by virtue of them both being flak armour.
Maniac_nmt wrote:
38k years of dogmatically stale and never improving tactics which rely on, at best WW2 era strategies, and at worst medieval battle tactics (let's all line up and then trade shots).
A modern military, from a more advanced country would wipe the walls with the IG. Better equipment and support structures, better training, better tactics, etc.
Better tactics? Every country today is still using old WW2 tactics. The only difference is using small strike forces then large scale army's, and they use a lot more air-force than in WW2.
IG don't fight like that. The thing we see in fan-art is just to show us determination, in reality (40k) every Guardsman is using cover etc...
Our strategies are modern? We don't have anything about space battle, ship to ship in space attack or even taking down entire planet full of hostiles...And Guard actually has better equipment than any our today solder ( they even have satellite marking for theit Lasguns... )
Take the modern US military as an example. IG train for months and maybe even a few years? Ok, the average US officer has trained a minimum of 4 years before he even gets the lowest level butter bars. Weapons? How so, modern cruise missle, laser designation, vastly superior air support (A-10 >> then a wing of anything the guard has), guns that shoot around corners, dialed airburst underslung grenade launchers, drone support, forward air controllers, tanks that are over 20 years old and still can do 65 up and down hills and yet accurately land a round on a target, stealth fighters...
Logistics? You mean, oh good grief, the warp sucks everything into oblivion? Morale? Yeah, the same kind of morale that involves holding a gun to guys heads to make them fight (i.e. that's what comissars do, also, study your own history, forced conscription armies have NEVER had equivalent morale to all volunteer armies, this is exactly why the US does not force it's citizens to serve in the armed forces).
They may have seen crazy aliens, I'll give them that, but it's not much more horrific than war already is.
US ? The Us only have one war strategy: Let's bomb the c*** out of everything and just send some Marines to loot.
And your officer that trains 4 years don't see c of combat. IG see in 4 years what we don't see in 4 life times ( if he survive that long ).
Superior air power? How about Orbital bombardment? or Lightning raid ( Lightnings are very fast since they dive from space ).
I won't say anything about IG tanks, you have IA and go read. Everything that Guard have in it's tank arsenal beat the c*** of everything we have today ( just see Baneblade ).
Just face it: nothing that we have today can even equal with IG. Even with our advance tech, they would vipe the floor with all of our army's at one strike. And for the end just remember, even if we were equal in any way with them - they have vast space fleet that can level our entire planet with one bomb.
Melissia wrote:As amusing as it would be to see chuck norris shot all to hell as he arrogantly shouted his superiority, let's keep his dumb ass out of this.
im2randomghgh wrote:And modern Flak armour would be the same as sci-fi flak armour, by virtue of them both being flak armour.
No.
Very well developed argument you should join BL
Also, chuck norris would just shut off the sun and watch them freeze
Chuck Norris doesn't die, he just puts life on pause
Frazzled wrote:Why is there no discussion of communication? What does the IG company have in the way of communication vs. a company of US marines. If you have to blob together in a wave then its WWI and you end up like in WWI, dead in a field from machine gun fire.
An IG company, as Melissia said, will be tied together by squad level microbeads, and have the ability to call higher up with their vox caster.
That seems like its equal, but lets not forget that that vox caster has a ridiculously long range. They can make calls up to orbit, or to high command on another continent with those things. That's an improvement over modern day communications.
As for logistics, people forget that the warp is a lot more stable than people give it credit for. Yes, it is possible for ships to be sucked in and reappear thoussands of years later than they left, but the reason the Imperium shows up late for a lot of fights is more due to the beuraucracy than the logistics. Let's remember that (source = BFG rulebook) lots of stable warp routes exist between planets that have semi-reliable travel times.
Remember, the IG is dogmatic, but not stupid. The Tactica Imperialis is said to be good, but it's not perfect. When confronted with a situation, they don't go flipping through the Tactica to find an answer, they think back to an example or metaphor that can be applied to the current situation. It's a way for even the youngest officer to call upon millenia of warfighting experience.
As for equipment, let's go down the list.
Standard Small Arm: Lasgun vs. Assault Rifle
The lasgun wins this round. In addition to being lighter and more powerful, the lasgun is also much easier to resupply. Just recharge your powerpacks, or toss them in a fire if you're desperate. I've said it before, and I'll say it many times again, the lasgun is a logisticians wet dream come true.
Body Armor: Flak Armor vs. Bullet Proof Vest
Let's look at something. It's generally accepted that a heavy stubber is the rough equivalent of a heavy machine gun. The heavy stubber is AP6, which means flak armor will stop the bullet 1/3 of the time. I'd like you to show me where modern day infantry body armor could take a direct hit from a heavy machine gun, and save the man inside semi-reliably.
Special Weapons: Sniper Rifles, Grenade Launchers, etc.
The Imperium carries this one easily. Not only does it have grenade launchers and sniper rilfles that can be understood to be the equivalent of anything we use today. However, that's not counting things like plasma guns that allow even the lowliest trooper to threaten an APC from rifle range, and melta guns that can eviscerate even the toughest tanks with one shot. Modern militaries have nothing to answer this. The closest equivalen they could have would be something like the LAW, or other similarly small and light rocket launchers. Melta and plasma take the cake.
Heavy Weapons: Squad Support Weapons, Antitank Weapons, etc.
Heavy support weapons for a modern infantry army would include mortars, heavy machine guns, ATGMs, and shoulder launched SAMs. The Imperial Guard has mortars, uses the significantly more powerful heavy bolter and autocannon (which can deal with lightly armored vehicles as well). Missile Launcher and lascannons fulfill the role of ATGMs, and missile launchers can double for AA (especially against the low level support craft like attack helicopters) in a pinch. Admittedly, this is an area where a modern army might have roughly equivalent equipment, however lets not forget how prevalent these heavy weapons are in the IG as opposed to a modern army.
As far as infantry go, the IG have the advantage with better small arms, special weapons and a rough tie for heavy weapons (though more likely leaning in the Imperium's favor).
Tanks and other armor are harder to compare thanks to a lack of comparable data, but let me just make a point about aircraft. SAMs and AAMs do not kill by hitting the aircraft. They kill by detonating close by and filling the air with shrapnel and other crap that shreds the plane. THis works because most modern aircraft are either un or very lightly armored. Only aircraft like the A-10 have reasonably thick armor. Imperial aircraft tend to be relatively well armored, with things like the Thunderhawk armored as heavily as ground APCs. This additional protection can not be discounted, not can orbital support be ignored either.
) and they can punch through tanks. I doubt modern armours can offer much protection from knives without hindering your movements.
when we fight air wars. Nuff Said.
). I just pointed out that the fluff supports your average lasgun roughly having the equivalent range of an assualt rifle.
] situations. Heavy Stubbers/Bolters [S4] are the equivalent of .50 cal weaponry we have today in both fluff and real world effect. So a S5 weapon would be a step up from that, say real world 20mm, S6 would be the equivalent of larger cannon, S7-10 the equivalent of anything from a light 
they need to fire standing, and a range of 120 yards, kevlar would stop most of the arrows, and when they reached the bowman lines......ouch...
expensive.