My girlfriend has been thinking much about the Blood Ravens with the imminent release of Dawn of War 2 Retribution upon us, and so she's been considering this deeply. She has found a good deal of hints and signs that seem to indicate the Blood Ravens' unknown Primarch is in fact Horus himself. This lends itself well with how deeply routed their relationship is with the warp and chaos, and particularly the Black Legion. She's the one that's come up with the theory though, so that's about all I can recall from it.
What do you guys think? Do the pieces fit? Do you think we'll ever know?
۞ Jack ۞ wrote:A few of the BL books have hinted it to be magnus.
No, they haven't.
People have made the assumption that certain innocuous phrases are "OMG MAGNUS IS THE PRIMARCH!".
The closest that it makes sense is the fact that one of the Cults within the Thousand Sons is referred to as 'Corvidae', which really isn't that big of a deal in the end since it refers to a Cult which is particularly gifted in the area of farseeing/divination.
Which, incidentally, a lot of mythology tied to Ravens tends towards being related to their presence foretelling something--or even, in the case of the Tower of London, the destruction of something if the Ravens ever flee.
۞ Jack ۞ wrote:A few of the BL books have hinted it to be magnus.
No, they haven't.
People have made the assumption that certain innocuous phrases are "OMG MAGNUS IS THE PRIMARCH!".
The closest that it makes sense is the fact that one of the Cults within the Thousand Sons is referred to as 'Corvidae', which really isn't that big of a deal in the end since it refers to a Cult which is particularly gifted in the area of farseeing/divination.
Which, incidentally, a lot of mythology tied to Ravens tends towards being related to their presence foretelling something--or even, in the case of the Tower of London, the destruction of something if the Ravens ever flee.
A Thousand sons did pretty much state it, so you sir have been disproved
I poured through my copy of "A Thousand Sons" today. It does not say anything that jumps out of the page at me and says "MAGNUS IS THE FATHER OF THE BLOOD RAVENS!".
All it says is a statement to the effect of 'Ravens, forged in blood.', going on to state something about how they shall 'have tragedy at every turn'.
Guess what happened shortly after the events of this book?
The Istvaan Dropsite Massacres.
What happened after that event?
Corax attempted to 'forge' new Raven Guard, from his own blood. That resulted in the 'Abominations' that he later killed himself.
For all we know their primarch could be Roboute Guilliman. What, they have a strong Librarium you say? Well, so have the Silver Skulls and the Howling Gryphons, both Ultramarines successors.
Their obsession with knowledge is most likely a character trait which can be traced back to Azariah Vidya, whose analytical mind and careful study of the enemy saved the chapter from certain extinction.
The Raven is a universal symbol of knowledge and not specific to the Thousand Sons or the Raven Guard.
Even the chapter's secrecy isn't unique. Sure, it is almost certain that they, or at least some of them, have something to hide. But to conclude that they are some missing or loyal 1k sons chapter is pretty far fetched.
It's far fetched in a way that makes it sound almost true...
I don't want them to be Thousand Sons successors but it would be one the less ridiculous things for them to be.
purplefood wrote:It's far fetched in a way that makes it sound almost true...
I don't want them to be Thousand Sons successors but it would be one the less ridiculous things for them to be.
could be worse, they could always be alpha legion sucessors.... always remember there is a 99% chance that an army you face is really an alpha legion army in disguise. there is an equal chance your own army is one as well
Because the black legion doesn't like the Blood Ravens doesn't mean they have the same primarch. There could be dozens of different reasons to explain the feud between them. As stated before, GW publications rather tend to point Magnus as their primarch, although this is just fan-speculation, not an official statement.
Of course the Black Legion hate the Blood Ravens and vice versa - one is a loyalist Chapter and the other is the Legion of the arch-traitor Horus Lupercal...
Personally I wonder if the Blood Ravens are the barely-acceptable offspring of Corax, the ones he wasn't forced to destroy after his failed re-founding of the Raven Guard. Hence their higher than usual level of Librarians and psykers. There's no real evidence for this, but it is fact. (Brass Eye reference for you there...)
AFAWK it might be the Emperor to But to be honest, something strange is happening with them. The prof is Thule, when he has seen the inner things on the chapter and relics on Kronus, he became quite scared. BR Primarch is definitely gone to Chaos, but witch one we do not know.
As I said in a previous thread about this subject, there are many hints in A Thousand Sons about them being descendants of Magnus. I'll list those that i remember:
Red armour, like pre-heresy Thousand Sons
Seeking knowledge
Large numbers of psykers
The prophecy mentioned above
I think that they are members of Thousand Sons that entered stasis before they reached Magnus to avoid succumbing to physical corruption. It's not clarified wether these marines were afflicted and waiting to be cured or merely trying to avoid the effect. Due to Rubrik of Ahriman, all Thousand Sons would be free of mutation, I think this applies to those in stasis.(Doesn't exactly make sense. It could be explained through Magnus changing the destiny of his legion to prevent mutations, and those later would be specific gifts rather than a universal effect,)
Later, someone would have freed the lost sons from stasis. They had missed the time of Primarchs, having never met any. I think it would be logical that they would seek all knowledge about HH and their own past, which had been deleted in the aftermath of Heresy.
This is my theory about Blood Ravens. Anyone agree?
There's one hint, and even then it's so vague that it can be be related to anything.
It's effectively worded like a prophecy from psychics today. Make it as vague as possible and it can be applied to pretty much every event.
Due to Rubrik of Ahriman, all Thousand Sons would be free of mutation, I think this applies to those in stasis.(Doesn't exactly make sense. It could be explained through Magnus changing the destiny of his Legion to prevent mutation, and those later would be specific gifts rather than a universal effect,)
You know what the Rubric of Ahriman did, right?
There's a reason the tagline for 'A Thousand Sons' is 'All is dust'. The Rubric effectively cured the mutations...by destroying their bodies. Many of the Sorcerers are now the only ones who retain a physical body, while the rest are just the 'souls' of the Astartes trapped within the armor.
I know that, I merely wondered if the effect of the spell ,which, iirc is to free all Thousand Sons of mutation forever (by reducing all but the most powerful psykers to dust within their armor by accident) would apply to those not present on the Planet of Sorcerers. As I said in the post, it doesn't exactly make sense. However, I feel that them being from 1kSons gene-seed makes more sense than others.
I don't belive they're decended from Magnus. There's no mention of any of the Blood Ravens suffering form the flesh change is there?
They have lots of psykers because they recruit people who are psychic in the first place. The Gene-seed doesn't make and difference.
There are some similiar references. Corvidae is the name of a cult in the Thousand sons and also the family which Crows, Rooks and Ravens (as well as others).
There was the one bit I cant remember it exactly from the Thousand Sons novel where mangnus (i think) sees the statue of the raven that has survived the assualt by the Space Wolves.
I just think people are seeing patterns where there are none.
Kallimakus wrote:I know that, I merely wondered if the effect of the spell ,which, iirc is to free all Thousand Sons of mutation forever (by reducing all but the most powerful psykers to dust within their armor by accident) would apply to those not present on the Planet of Sorcerers. As I said in the post, it doesn't exactly make sense. However, I feel that them being from 1kSons gene-seed makes more sense than others.
The thing to remember is that while the Thousand Sons make a 'kind of sense'--there's no mutations in the Blood Ravens.
They also have large portions of the Chapter which do not have any kind of psychic talent. The Thousand Sons had noone lacking psychic talent. Which kinda shoots that theory right in the head
Melkhiordarkblade wrote:Well remember that a Primarch for the later chapters can also mean just the marine that they got their genes from.
Didn't Orar have a chapter from his gene seed?
Maybe it's not Magnus per-say,Rather a first generation Thousand Son Libraian or Captain that was made their Primarch.
Orar was simply a great leader.
The chapter honours him as their spiritual leader and founder rather than their actual primarch.
Gene-seed (afaik) was only created from the primarchs and possibly the Emperor if certain sources are to be believed.
Well, all chapters are descended from the 20 Primarchs. GW used to use the term Primarch to note a Chapter Master, but that stopped a long time ago. Eisenhorn talks about contacting the White Consuls Primarch to tell him of the bravery of his battle brothers. But, like I said, there are no Primarchs other than the original 20. Sigismund is not the Primarch of the Black Templars, Rogal Dorn is.
I think people are definitely blowing a couple of vague references to ravens as die hard proof. It's not. I have to say I'm leaning towards what the OP is theorizing. The Chapter Master of the Blood Ravens always pulls the Blood Ravens out of a battle with the Black Legion.
CajunMan wrote:Well, all chapters are descended from the 20 Primarchs. GW used to use the term Primarch to note a Chapter Master, but that stopped a long time ago. Eisenhorn talks about contacting the White Consuls Primarch to tell him of the bravery of his battle brothers. But, like I said, there are no Primarchs other than the original 20. Sigismund is not the Primarch of the Black Templars, Rogal Dorn is.
I think people are definitely blowing a couple of vague references to ravens as die hard proof. It's not. I have to say I'm leaning towards what the OP is theorizing. The Chapter Master of the Blood Ravens always pulls the Blood Ravens out of a battle with the Black Legion.
Spoiler:
That's because Kyras is in the midst of trying to align himself, personally, with the Ruinous Powers. Retribution has introduced him, for the first time, into direct contact with the playerbase. He's calling himself 'The Ascendant' and basically trying to get himself a nice ol' piece of Daemon Prince Pie.
To think that it's indicative of some kind of link between Horus and the Blood Ravens is, again, quite silly.
Why?
Because it has the same issue as the Thousand Sons theory. There's no way that the gene-seed of a Traitor Legion was used to found a Chapter post-Heresy.
And there was no new Foundings during the Heresy proper, so...
Can't be without, again, severe retconning. There have been attempts to found 'Successors' to the Space Wolves--and they always end up, literally, going hairy.
I'm kinda inclined to go with one of the previous ideas that it could be Corax, some of the ones that he didnt destroy, if there were any.
Only other speculation is that they are from one of the missing primarchs, easiest explanation too as GW probably didnt think that much into the fluff when the Blood Ravens were first thought up.
But i definately agree that they are not from Horus or Magnus.
I know, but there would be someone who would start spreading that
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Matt070 wrote:I'm kinada inclined to go with one of the previous ideas that it could be Corax, some of the ones that he didnt destroy, if there were any.
Only other speculation is that they are from one of the missing primarchs, easiest explanation too GW probably didnt think that much into the fluff when the Blood Ravens were first thought up
You want to know an even better 'speculation'(really an explanation)?
That they're just a Successor Chapter of one of the existing Chapters.
The two 'missing Primarchs' will never be explored in the lore. They're supposed to be lost, tales of tragedy and woe that we'll never actually hear.
Nothing exists of them, their tale is so tragic it was stricken from the record.
The lost primarchs keep getting mentioned in several of the Horus Heresy novels, so to say that they will never be explored is a bit of a bold statement. So it could be where they came from, probably as a successor chapter if the legions were integrated into others, but initially coming from one of the legions/gene seed of the lost primarchs.
Matt070 wrote:The lost primarchs keep getting mentioned in several of the Horus Heresy novels, so to say that they will never be explored is a bit of a bold statement. So it could be where they came from, probably as a successor chapter if the legions were integrated into others, but initially coming from one of the legions/gene seed of the lost primarchs.
It's really not.
GW keep them so DIY chapters can have a touch of mystery but it also adds an element of the unknown to damn near eveything if you even mention them.
Matt070 wrote:The lost primarchs keep getting mentioned in several of the Horus Heresy novels, so to say that they will never be explored is a bit of a bold statement. So it could be where they came from, probably as a successor chapter if the legions were integrated into others, but initially coming from one of the legions/gene seed of the lost primarchs.
'Mention' is not the same as 'explored'.
And no. We've already been told what happened to them. They, and their Legions, were killed/lost in some mysterious circumstances and nothing was ever able to be salvaged from them.
I thought we all settled that they are sons of the Blood Angels? Because every single chapter that has been cured of the red rage (I.E Lementors) have had a curse. Like bad luck and such.
Asherian Command wrote:I thought we all settled that they are sons of the Blood Angels? Because every single chapter that has been cured of the red rage (I.E Lementors) have had a curse. Like bad luck and such.
Asherian Command wrote:I thought we all settled that they are sons of the Blood Angels? Because every single chapter that has been cured of the red rage (I.E Lementors) have had a curse. Like bad luck and such.
Nope...
Where did you get that idea from?
Dante, and the 7 Deadly Sins. Which The blood Ravens are guilty of...
Asherian Command wrote:I thought we all settled that they are sons of the Blood Angels? Because every single chapter that has been cured of the red rage (I.E Lementors) have had a curse. Like bad luck and such.
Nope...
Where did you get that idea from?
Dante, and the 7 Deadly Sins. Which The blood Ravens are guilty of...
You know in comms that is what's called restricted communication as theorised by Burnstein. Essentially it raises a semetic barrier between the sender and the reciever, as shown the send-message-reciever model.
In short, explain please.
Asherian Command wrote:I thought we all settled that they are sons of the Blood Angels? Because every single chapter that has been cured of the red rage (I.E Lementors) have had a curse. Like bad luck and such.
Nope...
Where did you get that idea from?
Dante, and the 7 Deadly Sins. Which The blood Ravens are guilty of...
You know in comms that is what's called restricted communication as theorised by Burnstein. Essentially it raises a semetic barrier between the sender and the reciever, as shown the send-message-reciever model.
In short, explain please.
OK there are 7 deadly sins.
Gluttony- Chapter trying to overeat on Knowledge
Lust- Captain Gabriel Angelous
Wraith/Anger- The Entire Chapter
Greed- Their current chapter master wants more power.
Pride- The Captain in Chaos Rising has too much pride to notice corruption
Envy- Every Scout has this when looking at a 1st Company Terminator
Sloth- The Current Captain of the 4th.
Basically this is not joke. Its actually the chapter broke all 7 sins, Plus its an example
They seem like blood angels to me though. More than any other legion.
I think many chapter are guilty of that... apart from lust and even then...
They don't act like BA at all.
In fact the only thing they seem to share is a colour and the word blood.
Kan - i dont think the legions were lost /killed - there's a reason why the UM have 250,000 marines cf the nmore usual 100k...I thin kits more likely a proportion of the lgions were destroyed, along with the primarchs.
I hope they dont properly explore them (apart fom the hints that it was Russ that did it) as mystery is good.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Kan - i don't think the legions were lost /killed - there's a reason why the UM have 250,000 marines cf the more usual 100k...I thin kits more likely a proportion of the lgions were destroyed, along with the primarchs.
Yeah, there is.
The Ultramarines have some of the most stable gene-seed that's existed to date. There's a reason they've been the basis for most of the Successor Chapters out there.
The only place where we've seen anything suggesting that the Ultramarines somehow 'acquired' the Marines from those Lost Legions is in 'The First Heretic', and it's(from what I understand) spoken by a Word Bearer. The Word Bearers had an axe to grind against Guilleman and his boys for the censure that they enacted against the Word Bearers.
Yet in "Legion" the UM are considered to be tainted, hence were not chosen by the Cabal. THat taint could be through induction of non-UM into their chapter.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet in "Legion" the UM are considered to be tainted, hence were not chosen by the Cabal. THat taint could be through induction of non-UM into their chapter.
Or it could be because they were very strict adherents to the Word of the Emperor.
There's a reason that Horus went out of his way to ensure the Ultramarines were as far away as possible from where they could actually participate in keeping his forces in check. And it's quite clearly not because they were 'tainted'.
Kanluwen wrote:
There's a reason that Horus went out of his way to ensure the Ultramarines were as far away as possible from where they could actually participate in keeping his forces in check. And it's quite clearly not because they were 'tainted'.
Because they would have boosted the loyalist Astartes numbers considerably. But the idea that they are tainted, at least some of them, cant be simply dismissed. Just because it was said by a Word Bearer doesnt mean that it was made up, yes they wanted to discredit the other legions particularly the ultramarines but it doesnt mean that they were wrong to say it. Its just as good an explanation as saying they were very strict adherents to the Word of the Emperor.
Kanluwen wrote:
There's a reason that Horus went out of his way to ensure the Ultramarines were as far away as possible from where they could actually participate in keeping his forces in check. And it's quite clearly not because they were 'tainted'.
Because they would have boosted the loyalist Astartes numbers considerably. But the idea that they are tainted, at least some of them, cant be simply dismissed. Just because it was said by a Word Bearer doesnt mean that it was made up, yes they wanted to discredit the other legions particularly the ultramarines but it doesnt mean that they were wrong to say it. Its just as good an explanation as saying they were very strict adherents to the Word of the Emperor.
It wasn't said by a Word Bearer.
The 'tainted' accusation was from the Xenos Cabal. Which, simply put, could have been because...
Say it with me folks.
The Ultramarines were devoted to the Word of the Emperor, considered rigid and inflexible.
Kanluwen wrote:
There's a reason that Horus went out of his way to ensure the Ultramarines were as far away as possible from where they could actually participate in keeping his forces in check. And it's quite clearly not because they were 'tainted'.
Because they would have boosted the loyalist Astartes numbers considerably. But the idea that they are tainted, at least some of them, cant be simply dismissed. Just because it was said by a Word Bearer doesnt mean that it was made up, yes they wanted to discredit the other legions particularly the ultramarines but it doesnt mean that they were wrong to say it. Its just as good an explanation as saying they were very strict adherents to the Word of the Emperor.
It wasn't said by a Word Bearer.
The 'tainted' accusation was from the Xenos Cabal. Which, simply put, could have been because...
Say it with me folks.
The Ultramarines were devoted to the Word of the Emperor, considered rigid and inflexible.
Or because they were right? Its not writtin either way, so either or neither could be true.
Kanluwen wrote:
There's a reason that Horus went out of his way to ensure the Ultramarines were as far away as possible from where they could actually participate in keeping his forces in check. And it's quite clearly not because they were 'tainted'.
Because they would have boosted the loyalist Astartes numbers considerably. But the idea that they are tainted, at least some of them, cant be simply dismissed. Just because it was said by a Word Bearer doesnt mean that it was made up, yes they wanted to discredit the other legions particularly the ultramarines but it doesnt mean that they were wrong to say it. Its just as good an explanation as saying they were very strict adherents to the Word of the Emperor.
It wasn't said by a Word Bearer.
The 'tainted' accusation was from the Xenos Cabal. Which, simply put, could have been because...
Say it with me folks.
The Ultramarines were devoted to the Word of the Emperor, considered rigid and inflexible.
Or because they were right? Its not written either way, so either or neither could be true.
No, it's really not.
In "Legion", when the Cabal is talking about the Ultramarines they're asked by Grammaticus to find another Chapter for him to approach.
The Alphas are the only ones who weren't 'tainted' by the idea of the Emperor's Utopia.
Which is your interpretation of it, i know i'm new to this forum and i'm just having a friendly discussion on opinion, suggestion, explanation, theory whatever you want to call it on where the Blood Ravens come from, seems to me that so far your contribution has been "no, thats wrong" to everything thats been said, and what you've said is obviously right. Unless you have a hidden book or writings from BL and games workshop giving all the explanations, everyones opinion is as valid as each others and not just wrong because you say so.
Matt070 wrote:Which is your interpretation of it, i know i'm new to this forum and i'm just having a friendly discussion on opinion, suggestion, explanation, theory whatever you want to call it on where the Blood Ravens come from, seems to me that so far your contribution has been "no, thats wrong" to everything thats been said, and what you've said is obviously right.
Erm, no. Because I've put forward no theory. I'm just shutting down everyone else's theories.
You know why? Because they're absurd. Almost every theory that we see posted here on Dakka is inevitably a 'square peg, round hole' theory--an attempt to jam an assorted lot of facts, which are not interconnected at all, together.
Unless you have a hidden book or writings from BL and games workshop giving all the explanations, everyones opinion is as valid as each others and not just wrong because you say so.
You don't need to have a 'hidden book or writings from BL and Games Workshop giving all the explanations'. You just have to actually read more than one piece of background text.
Fact 1: Magnus could not be the Primarch. Why? The Thousand Sons' gene-seed was fatally flawed, and was in fact not what gave them a large proportion of psykers in their ranks.
Add to it that the gene-seed of the Traitor Legions is kept within a time-locked vault guarded by the Custodes--suffice to say, nobody's sneaking their way into there to get the gene-seed out to found their little Thousand Sons Mk. II attempt.
Fact 2: Horus and pretty much none of the Traitor Primarchs also could not be the Primarch. This one's a bit easier, because it's just the additional note to fact 1. The Gene-Seed's locked away, and will be until the time that the Emperor set on the clock runs out.
Fact 3: They're not a Raven Guard, Salamanders or Blood Angels Successor because they don't exhibit the traits of any of those Legions. They don't have the Black Rage, the waking nightmares, etc of the Blood Angels and they don't have the albinism or sullen moods of the Raven Guard nor the coloration of the Salamanders(which is a flaw in the gene-seed).
Fact 4: They're not a Space Wolves Successor because they physically cannot be. The traits that are physically expressed within the Space Wolves are not present.
So what does that leave? Dark Angels, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, White Scars, or the Iron Hands.
Bear in mind: That's just based upon the facts available at this time. It's likely they just want the origins of the Blood Raven to be a mystery.
Kanluwen wrote:Erm, no. Because I've put forward no theory. I'm just shutting down everyone else's theories.
You know why? Because they're absurd. Almost every theory that we see posted here on Dakka is inevitably a 'square peg, round hole' theory--an attempt to jam an assorted lot of facts, which are not interconnected at all, together.
Again, your opinion that they're absurd, to others it may present a new thing to think about or come up with something we havent heard. I agree that Horus and Magnus are a defo no, but thats my opinion, if someone can think up a way it might be then thats fine, i'm interested to hear it. Yes they might keep it a mystery but its something interesting to discuss which adds to the fluff etc of the diverse 40k universe.
Just because the successor chapters show no traits doesnt mean that they are not from those legions, the trait could have mutated into something else for example... but no doubt that is wrong as well eh?
Kanluwen wrote:Erm, no. Because I've put forward no theory. I'm just shutting down everyone else's theories.
You know why? Because they're absurd. Almost every theory that we see posted here on Dakka is inevitably a 'square peg, round hole' theory--an attempt to jam an assorted lot of facts, which are not interconnected at all, together.
Again, your opinion that they're absurd, to others it may present a new thing to think about or come up with something we havent heard. I agree that Horus and Magnus are a defo no, but thats my opinion, if someone can think up a way it might be then thats fine, i'm interested to hear it. Yes they might keep it a mystery but its something interesting to discuss which adds to the fluff etc of the diverse 40k universe.
It may be new or something you haven't heard, Matt...but I've heard almost every one of these theories before. Repeatedly.
Just because the successor chapters show no traits doesnt mean that they are not from those legions, the trait could have mutated into something else for example... but no doubt that is wrong as well eh?
Ehhh. Yes and no.
That will occasionally happen with the smaller traits...but the big things are essentially "non-negotiable".
nosferatu1001 wrote:Kan - yet the reason given is that the UM had been diluted too much, hence the taint - the Alphas were newer and smaller
Your theory is just that: a theory with no more basis than others, and your derogatory and snide attitude doesnt help matters.
Find that quote about 'dilution' for me.
It had nothing to do with, again, some actual physically representable 'taint'. It was flowery language, spoken by an Eldar Autarch within the Cabal. The context is, once again, important.
It's also worth noting that the Alphas, while newer, were the size of any other Legion. The Ultramarines and Thousand Sons were outliers within the average make-up of the Legions. The only thing that set the Alpha Legion apart from the rest was that they were known for subtlety and practicality.
And yes. My theory is just that. A theory. However, it does have a tad more basis to work from than others and I've spelled out why.
There's no "derogatory" or "snide" attitude involved by the by. It's simple and matter-of-fact when I state something.
Matt070 wrote:Well if you've heard them before why not just let others discuss it without you saying "your wrong?"
Because correcting misinformation and at least attempting to steer people towards more sensible theories is somewhat important?
I know, it's silly but when it comes to these kinds of threads in 40k Background, we get three types of people posting them(off the top of my head).
Sometimes the person posting is new, and they feel they're sharing some great new revelation and "enlightening" us as to their newly-minted truth. In which case, it's important to point them towards the other threads or show them why their interpretation is mistaken--while steering them towards other material they can read to begin building up all the facts for a better case to present at another point.
Then there's the other kind of person. This person goes off second-hand information, and generally can be considered like the "NASA never went to the moon!" folks. They will not accept anything as proof--other than what they deem acceptable.
Then there's the final type of person posting these threads. They generally post one or two of these threads, then stop posting period. Whether they're trying to get a rise out of the community, stir up the pot, or whatever I can't say.
Also: I won't lie. I can just as likely be wrong with my 'theory' as you want to call it(even though I'm not going around advocating it or anything...I'm just pointing out holes in the logic train that people use to arrive at the Traitor Primarchs). But that chance is pretty slim, unless GW does some serious retconning or pulls out a Deus Ex Machina for how the Blood Ravens came about.
Matt070 wrote:Where does it say they are non negotiable?
When it comes to the traits displayed by Successor Chapters?
Everywhere. Successor Chapters will almost always have the major 'flaws' of their parent Chapter's gene-seed. Sometimes, they will have unique flaws associated with just that Successor Chapter--but it's far more rare to see them not exhibiting their parents' gene-seed when it comes to the major parts.
For example: The Raptors are a Raven Guard Successor Chapter. They exhibit all of the Raven Guard's traits. The paper-white skin and the coal black eyes are associated with a mutation within the gene-seed of the Raven Guard, just like Salamanders' coal black skin is a by-product of a mutation within their gene-seed
See one thing I've never understood about the Blood Ravens situation.
Now the Blood Ravens are all Space Marines, and are thus required to submit a Gene-seed tithe to Terra, to ensure there is no corruption right?
How hard is it to simply cross reference all the genetic material they have to identify where the gene-seed originates/has highest matching markers? Surely if there was such a degree of corruption to this make this impossible why would the inquisition or the High Lords simply not order their destruction?
I know it's me being simple but it's bugged me for ages as to why it's not been asked before
P.S. Also, having read Legion, Kan is right. It's inferred that all the other SM chapters are too set in their ways, either following the Emperor Blindly, or already in Horus' pocket to be approached. Alpha Legion is trained to question everything, and view all sides of a situation and see the bigger picture, hence why the Cabal approach them.
Ok, I am making it clear to all of you right now. The Blood Ravens Primarch probably hasn't even been fully thought out yet.
The Blood Ravens were created for the THQ game Dawn of War by THQ! Other than maybe 2 articles about the Blood Ravens that GW has let out, and a handful of pics in army books etc., the Blood Ravens are not associated with GW and they wouldn't waste much time devising a background for them.
BL has released Blood Ravens Novels, but only to accompany a Dawn of War game. So don't look to GW for the answer, look to THQ. Since they probably don't think about it too hard, there are only hypothesis and theories that can be made about their origins. Based on above, Kan is correct about which Primarchs that you can weed out.
Just remember that this is all speculation, and until the real world creators of the BR tell you or hint very, very strongly at a candidate, all you can do is guess.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Kan - yet the reason given is that the UM had been diluted too much, hence the taint - the Alphas were newer and smaller
Your theory is just that: a theory with no more basis than others, and your derogatory and snide attitude doesnt help matters.
Find that quote about 'dilution' for me.
It had nothing to do with, again, some actual physically representable 'taint'. It was flowery language, spoken by an Eldar Autarch within the Cabal. The context is, once again, important.
It's also worth noting that the Alphas, while newer, were the size of any other Legion. The Ultramarines and Thousand Sons were outliers within the average make-up of the Legions. The only thing that set the Alpha Legion apart from the rest was that they were known for subtlety and practicality.
And yes. My theory is just that. A theory. However, it does have a tad more basis to work from than others and I've spelled out why.
There's no "derogatory" or "snide" attitude involved by the by. It's simple and matter-of-fact when I state something.
Matt070 wrote:Well if you've heard them before why not just let others discuss it without you saying "your wrong?"
Because correcting misinformation and at least attempting to steer people towards more sensible theories is somewhat important?
I know, it's silly but when it comes to these kinds of threads in 40k Background, we get three types of people posting them(off the top of my head).
Sometimes the person posting is new, and they feel they're sharing some great new revelation and "enlightening" us as to their newly-minted truth. In which case, it's important to point them towards the other threads or show them why their interpretation is mistaken--while steering them towards other material they can read to begin building up all the facts for a better case to present at another point.
Then there's the other kind of person. This person goes off second-hand information, and generally can be considered like the "NASA never went to the moon!" folks. They will not accept anything as proof--other than what they deem acceptable.
Then there's the final type of person posting these threads. They generally post one or two of these threads, then stop posting period. Whether they're trying to get a rise out of the community, stir up the pot, or whatever I can't say.
Also: I won't lie. I can just as likely be wrong with my 'theory' as you want to call it(even though I'm not going around advocating it or anything...I'm just pointing out holes in the logic train that people use to arrive at the Traitor Primarchs). But that chance is pretty slim, unless GW does some serious retconning or pulls out a Deus Ex Machina for how the Blood Ravens came about.
Matt070 wrote:Where does it say they are non negotiable?
When it comes to the traits displayed by Successor Chapters?
Everywhere. Successor Chapters will almost always have the major 'flaws' of their parent Chapter's gene-seed. Sometimes, they will have unique flaws associated with just that Successor Chapter--but it's far more rare to see them not exhibiting their parents' gene-seed when it comes to the major parts.
For example: The Raptors are a Raven Guard Successor Chapter. They exhibit all of the Raven Guard's traits. The paper-white skin and the coal black eyes are associated with a mutation within the gene-seed of the Raven Guard, just like Salamanders' coal black skin is a by-product of a mutation within their gene-seed
Kan you do come off snide and all knowing, stating things as "Fact" when your dealing with matters of opinion. Your coming off as some all knowing lord of SM fluff.
It is possible that Magus is the Primarch of the Blood ravens here is my argument why:
1: hints previously stated (alot of psykers, the profecy of the raven of blood rising from the ashes of prospero, ect)
2: You say they dont display the gene marker of freakish mutations, guess what... GW/BL can just make up some reason for why they were spared the mutation, perhaps Arhimans rubric worked differently on the sons outside of the warp than in it? maybe when the chapter was created the flaw was purged from the geneseed? The thousand sons didnt align themselves to chaos in any way and if anything were at the head of the pack in trying to stop horus, but by a tragic twist of fate were forced to betray the emperor. On these grounds it not hard for me to believe that the emperor would have tried to give them a second chance and recreat the legion as a chapter during on of the foundings. All speculation of course of all of which has just as much evidence and reason and logic as your points sir, just because you dont like them doesnt make them "absurd"
Really if GW can say that all of the imperiums technology is based off the dreams of a C'tan "ref mechanicum" a fact that was "hinted at" but never actually revealed intill recently, anything is possible in the 40k universe.
I personally dont believe its horus or magus but the way you kind of come off as insulting ("people trying to fit square blocks into round pegs" "absurd" Really? they are that dumb because they believe a theory with some descent evidence?)
P.S. The Salamanders gene-seed is fine and pure. They have dark skin and red eyes because of the radiation on nocturne not some flaw in there gene-seed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ishamaelus wrote:See one thing I've never understood about the Blood Ravens situation.
Now the Blood Ravens are all Space Marines, and are thus required to submit a Gene-seed tithe to Terra, to ensure there is no corruption right?
How hard is it to simply cross reference all the genetic material they have to identify where the gene-seed originates/has highest matching markers? Surely if there was such a degree of corruption to this make this impossible why would the inquisition or the High Lords simply not order their destruction?
I know it's me being simple but it's bugged me for ages as to why it's not been asked before
P.S. Also, having read Legion, Kan is right. It's inferred that all the other SM chapters are too set in their ways, either following the Emperor Blindly, or already in Horus' pocket to be approached. Alpha Legion is trained to question everything, and view all sides of a situation and see the bigger picture, hence why the Cabal approach them.
I agree with all of this. But whos to say that there has to be corruption in the geneseed just because its based off a traitor legion? Also wouldnt this only be further evidence that the geneseed could be from a traitor primarch as the mechanicus has no generecord to cross referance with because they are all locked up!? bum bum BUUUUUMMMM!!!!
HiveTyrant25 wrote:Ok, I am making it clear to all of you right now. The Blood Ravens Primarch probably hasn't even been fully thought out yet.
The Blood Ravens were created for the THQ game Dawn of War by THQ! Other than maybe 2 articles about the Blood Ravens that GW has let out, and a handful of pics in army books etc., the Blood Ravens are not associated with GW and they wouldn't waste much time devising a background for them.
BL has released Blood Ravens Novels, but only to accompany a Dawn of War game. So don't look to GW for the answer, look to THQ. Since they probably don't think about it too hard, there are only hypothesis and theories that can be made about their origins. Based on above, Kan is correct about which Primarchs that you can weed out.
Just remember that this is all speculation, and until the real world creators of the BR tell you or hint very, very strongly at a candidate, all you can do is guess.
Aaaaaaannnnnddddd this ^ more than anything is what I think. Though I dont agree with Kans process of elimination
Laughing God wrote:
Kan you do come off snide and all knowing, stating things as "Fact" when your dealing with matters of opinion. You're coming off as some all knowing lord of SM fluff.
I am stating facts. They're pulled from the various books, and have nothing to do with opinion. They're in black and white print.
It is possible that Magnus is the Primarch of the Blood ravens here is my argument why:
1: hints previously stated (alot of psykers, the profecy of the raven of blood rising from the ashes of prospero, ect)
If you're going to use the 'prophecy of the raven of blood', you will be wrong because it has says nothing of 'rising from the ashes of Prospero'.
Just so we can get rid of this constant stream of people citing this prophecy as some kind of evidence:
A Thousand Sons, page 430 3rd paragraph down wrote:
"It's too late...the Wolf is at the door and it hungers for blood. Oh, Throne...no, the blood! The Ravens, I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied! A brother betrayed, a brother murdered. The worst mistake for the noblest reason! It cannot happen, but it must!"
There's the entirety of the prophecy. Some of it could be pointed at as evidence of the Blood Ravens...until you realize it's just poetic language(prophecies always are) and that the Thousand Sons have a Cult within their ranks called the Corvidae.
2: You say they don't display the gene marker of freakish mutations, guess what... GW/BL can just make up some reason for why they were spared the mutation, perhaps Arhimans rubric worked differently on the sons outside of the warp than in it?
...You realize that there were no Sons outside of the Warp when the Rubric was cast, right?
Spoiler:
Even the Thousand Sons who were in hibernation, awaiting a cure for the Flesh Change were on Prospero when Magnus dragged the planet into the Warp.
maybe when the chapter was created the flaw was purged from the geneseed? The thousand sons didn't align themselves to chaos in any way and if anything were at the head of the pack in trying to stop horus, but by a tragic twist of fate were forced to betray the emperor. On these grounds it not hard for me to believe that the emperor would have tried to give them a second chance and recreate the legion as a chapter during on of the foundings.
The Emperor had already ordered the Thousand Sons purged for experimenting with sorcery. He'd also destroyed or locked away their gene-stocks.
Add to it that there was no 'purging' the flaw in the gene-seed...
Spoiler:
The only reason the flesh change was held at bay is because Magnus made a pact with one of the Ruinous Powers, thinking he'd mastered the entity.
All speculation of course of all of which has just as much evidence and reason and logic as your points sir, just because you dont like them doesnt make them "absurd"
It's not that I don't like them...it's that I find it silly that people immediately jump to conclusions based off of a single line of text in a book published years after the introduction of the Blood Ravens.
Really if GW can say that all of the imperiums technology is based off the dreams of a C'tan "ref mechanicum" a fact that was "hinted at" but never actually revealed until recently, anything is possible in the 40k universe.
Yeah...I'm pretty sure that's not what was going on in Mechanicum.
They hinted at the Omnissiah, in reality, being The Dragon. That's all.
I personally dont believe its horus or magus but the way you kind of come off as insulting ("people trying to fit square blocks into round pegs" "absurd" Really? they are that dumb because they believe a theory with some descent evidence?)
People aren't believing a theory with some "decent evidence". They're jumping to conclusions based off of one line of text.
It's like hearing hoofbeats in the woods and thinking zebra, because hey...hoofbeats! When in reality, if you hear hoofbeats and you're not in the Serengetti...you're going to be seeing horses or deer. Not zebras
P.S. The Salamanders gene-seed is fine and pure. They have dark skin and red eyes because of the radiation on nocturne not some flaw in there gene-seed.
Actually, it is a flaw in their gene-seed. The same flaw that gives the Raven Guard their ghost-white skin is what reacts with the radiation on Nocturne to give the Salamanders their jet-black skin.
Ishamaelus wrote:See one thing I've never understood about the Blood Ravens situation.
Now the Blood Ravens are all Space Marines, and are thus required to submit a Gene-seed tithe to Terra, to ensure there is no corruption right?
How hard is it to simply cross reference all the genetic material they have to identify where the gene-seed originates/has highest matching markers? Surely if there was such a degree of corruption to this make this impossible why would the inquisition or the High Lords simply not order their destruction?
I know it's me being simple but it's bugged me for ages as to why it's not been asked before
P.S. Also, having read Legion, Kan is right. It's inferred that all the other SM chapters are too set in their ways, either following the Emperor Blindly, or already in Horus' pocket to be approached. Alpha Legion is trained to question everything, and view all sides of a situation and see the bigger picture, hence why the Cabal approach them.
I agree with all of this. But whos to say that there has to be corruption in the geneseed just because its based off a traitor legion? Also wouldnt this only be further evidence that the geneseed could be from a traitor primarch as the mechanicus has no generecord to cross referance with because they are all locked up!? bum bum BUUUUUMMMM!!!!
Bwuh?
There's no way the gene-seed could be from a Traitor Primarch. That stuff's locked away under heavy guard and only the Emperor can open that vault. Seeing as how the Emperor hasn't been doing much moving around lately...
HiveTyrant25 wrote:Ok, I am making it clear to all of you right now. The Blood Ravens Primarch probably hasn't even been fully thought out yet.
The Blood Ravens were created for the THQ game Dawn of War by THQ! Other than maybe 2 articles about the Blood Ravens that GW has let out, and a handful of pics in army books etc., the Blood Ravens are not associated with GW and they wouldn't waste much time devising a background for them.
BL has released Blood Ravens Novels, but only to accompany a Dawn of War game. So don't look to GW for the answer, look to THQ. Since they probably don't think about it too hard, there are only hypothesis and theories that can be made about their origins. Based on above, Kan is correct about which Primarchs that you can weed out.
Just remember that this is all speculation, and until the real world creators of the BR tell you or hint very, very strongly at a candidate, all you can do is guess.
Aaaaaaannnnnddddd this ^ more than anything is what I think. Though I don't agree with Kans process of elimination
You can not agree with it all you want. It doesn't make you right
But yeah HiveTyrant. The novels to accompany a Dawn of War game can even be discounted, because they're by that toolbag C.S. Goto. You know, the guy with backflipping Terminators, transforming Landrazor Raiderbacks, surfing Eldar Farseers, kids with rocks downing a Falcon, etc.
I tried to waller through all the posts and hope I didn't miss the reference, but did anyone mention Dawn of War, Tempest? When the Blood Ravens Libby ends up with Ahriman, he calls him brother (of course all marines could do that) but there are a few refrences to it being something much deeper. Yes, Magnus AGAIN.
About the chapters not using traitor gene seed, er, what about the grey knights first marines? Death guard and Luna wolves. (Aww crap, they were traitors). On the same vein didn't an index astartes book discuss the cursed founding and using some less then reputable gene seed. No it doesn't say it was THAT seed, but it does discuss it coming from sources under lock and key.
۞ Jack ۞ wrote:A few of the BL books have hinted it to be magnus.
No, they haven't.
People have made the assumption that certain innocuous phrases are "OMG MAGNUS IS THE PRIMARCH!".
The closest that it makes sense is the fact that one of the Cults within the Thousand Sons is referred to as 'Corvidae', which really isn't that big of a deal in the end since it refers to a Cult which is particularly gifted in the area of farseeing/divination.
Which, incidentally, a lot of mythology tied to Ravens tends towards being related to their presence foretelling something--or even, in the case of the Tower of London, the destruction of something if the Ravens ever flee.
Ravens are associated with knowledge in Norse Mythology. Odin gets his information from two Ravens; Thought and Memory. So it would be perfectly logical for the TSons to have a group named Corvidae (the family name in the scientific classification for Ravens). Not necessarily logical to jump to Blood Ravens.
th salamanders gene-seed is fine, it's the radiation that does that
Even if it was a flaw in the gene seed it wouldn't be apparent in any successor chapters as Nocturne is unique.
i realise there is alot of hostility about taking lines from books out of context but i've just finished the Age of Darkness short story about the Thousand Sons.
Spoiler:
the characters are still loyal as they weren't caught in the assault on Prospero by Russ and i believe the last paragraph or so lends a hint to the Blood Ravens past.
It mentions the last surviving thousand son, Arvida, a member of the Corvidae, fleeing his attackers. His last words before he leaves are 'Knowledege is Power' as he leaves on a personal mission to find out what transpired on Prospero. It also gives us a fleeting image of his Iconography on his shoulder plate and guess what, its a black raven. Coincidence perhaps?
this would just help to fit in a bit with the magnus/blood ravens primarch thing IMHO.
EDIT: [i]i edited again because i wrote blood angels instead of blood ravens, sorry.
Garviel wrote:i realise there is alot of hostility about taking lines from books out of context but i've just finished the Age of Darkness short story about the Thousand Sons.
Spoiler:
the characters are still loyal as they weren't caught in the assault on Prospero by Russ and i believe the last paragraph or so lends a hint to the Blood Ravens past.
It mentions the last surviving thousand son, Arvida, a member of the Corvidae, fleeing his attackers. His last words before he leaves are 'Knowledege is Power' as he leaves on a personal mission to find out what transpired on Prospero. It also gives us a fleeting image of his Iconography on his shoulder plate and guess what, its a black raven. Coincidence perhaps?
this would just help to fit in a bit with the magnus/blood angels primarch thing IMHO.
There's no way the gene-seed could be from a Traitor Primarch. That stuff's locked away under heavy guard and only the Emperor can open that vault. Seeing as how the Emperor hasn't been doing much moving around lately...
Because Emperor knows that there have NEVER been any other stories/rumors/whathaveyou about traitor geneseed being used to create new *cough*CursedFounding*cough* space marine chapters...
It's been millenia. If someone on Terra wanted badly enough to get that vault open, then it'd be open. It might only be open for a short period of time, but it'd be open.
People go on about there not being any Thousand Sons who weren't on Prospero when it was sucked into the warp, but (forgive me, I dont have my copy to hand so I might be remembering this wrong), wasn't there a passage in A Thousand Sons where magnus ordered elements of the Thousand Sons fleet away from Prospero when he realised the Space Wolves were on their way?
Going on that & all the tangential hints keep getting referenced (pre heresy Sons colour scheme, lots of psykers, thirst for knowledge, etc), I always assumed that the Blood Ravens were descended from the Sons fleet that fled Prospero, and who perhaps laid low until the second founding, whence the ruling chapter master (possibly a member of the Corvidae, owing to the Blood Ravens' iconography) delberately destroyed all material relating to their origins so no one, including future generations of Blood Ravens, would know their traitorous lineage. Ten thousand years later, with no Blood Ravens from that period being extant, and no information on their origins, they really have forgotten where they come from.
At least thats how it played out in my head. Im just speculating.
Admittedly, the fact they're required to submit geneseed tithes to terra throws a spanner in the works. Maybe they just don't bother. I mean, if they weren't on founding records to begin with, the administratum wouldn't be looking for a tithe from them, & other Imperial forces would hardly question them about such things. Its doubtful anyone has complete records of every chapter from every founding, so no one would catch them out as being fake.
Magnus ordered the fleet to scatter within the star system that Prospero was in. It is most likely that the scattered fleet was destroyed after the arrival and subsequent attack by the Space Wolves.
Somecallmejack had a good point about if the Imperium don't really have records on them then would they have to send their geneseed back?
In the latest HH.....
Spoiler:
one of the stories is about a Thousand Sons ship that returns to Prospero after the attack by Leman Russ so some definetly survived. plus at the end, a lone Thousand Son of the Corvidae, and with a raven icon on his shoulder, escapes to start a new mission to seek out what happened on Prospero and why.
I think the title of the Age of Darkness story "Rebirth" makes it pretty clear that the story is about the "rebirth" of the loyalist thousand sons. Other hints dropped towards the end of the story are pretty obviously Blood Raven-esque.
Also, the Blood Ravens great father (although from M37, 6000 years after the events in M31) is named Azariah Vidya. Brother Arvida is the survivor. While it's a pretty loose and common "conspiracy" connection, I'd say it's indicative that GW is at least beginning to build some more hardcore fluff for Relic/THQ's Blood Ravens.
Don't you think there is even the slightest possibility that the Raven Guard are in fact loyal Thousand Sons? I'm not having a go as I fully accept that you prefer the cold hard facts and that a lot of people do read a lot into a simple turn of phrase.
But a single survivor of loyal thousand sons who already has Raven Symbology on his armour and who is also a psyker who then goes on to recruit other loyal Thousand sons with an aim to find out what happened is a rather believable story IMHO.
I reckon it could be a loose story beginning to appear. It would be better than them being one of the missing legions.
Don't you think there is even the slightest possibility that the Raven Guard are in fact loyal Thousand Sons? I'm not having a go as I fully accept that you prefer the cold hard facts and that a lot of people do read a lot into a simple turn of phrase.
The Raven Guard were a founding Legion(Primarch is 'Corax' in typical GW fashion), so no. That's likely not going to happen.
Now, could the Blood Ravens be loyal Thousand Sons? Chips are really really really stacked against them imo. Unless the authors are explicitly being told now "write in a way for the Blood Ravens to be Thousand Sons"--I'll just hold that they're likely a Chapter that don't know what geneseed they're from. There's examples of the Inquisition and other parts of the Imperium fiddling with the geneseed to make something 'perfect'.
But a single survivor of loyal thousand sons who already has Raven Symbology on his armour and who is also a psyker who then goes on to recruit other loyal Thousand sons with an aim to find out what happened is a rather believable story IMHO.
But there's the rub. The Blood Ravens aren't made up entirely of psykers. They have a large amount of psykers, but their entire Chapter isn't psykers.
Nor do they have all kinds of weird mutations coming up.
I reckon it could be a loose story beginning to appear. It would be better than them being one of the missing legions.
Them being one of the "Missing Legions" just isn't going to happen. They were lost and purged, respectively.
I think the latest HH book gives a pretty 'ham-handed' nod toward the Thousand Sons provenance. So much of a nod that I really don't think there can be any real doubt.
That said, I don't think there will ever be anything completely definitive as GW and BL like to keep all options open.
I think this was done to give THQ some intra-fluff legitimacy.
Kanluwen wrote:
It had nothing to do with, again, some actual physically representable 'taint'. It was flowery language, spoken by an Eldar Autarch within the Cabal. The context is, once again, important.
Yes it most certainly is, an alien with its own agenda is not a reliable source, nor is it correct even if it's not twisting the facts to suit its own agenda. The Eldar civilization was nearly wiped out by the birth of Slaanesh, they're still on borrowed time because of the mistakes they made prior to that. Why should anyone take what these fools say at face value? For all their vaunted wisdom and farsight, they still get caught unawares such as the destruction the nids brought them.
Going back to the Blood Ravens, the seeming fact that they don't suffer the flesh change or have universal psykers would suggest that they do not share their gene seed with the Thousand Sons. Of course their gene seed could be repressed in some unspecific way (grasping at straws here I realise) or they could be the end result of Magnus' repairing of his Legion. Maybe Magnus finally found a stable cure for the flaws but was unable to implement the new gene seed before the heresy occurred.
There is a Blood Ravens story (Goto?) which takes place on an Eldar planet inhabited by adherents to the Laughing God. A Thousand Sons sorcerer is there and he makes a comment to the Blood Raven character that suggests they are related.
Kanluwen wrote:
It had nothing to do with, again, some actual physically representable 'taint'. It was flowery language, spoken by an Eldar Autarch within the Cabal. The context is, once again, important.
Yes it most certainly is, an alien with its own agenda is not a reliable source, nor is it correct even if it's not twisting the facts to suit its own agenda. The Eldar civilization was nearly wiped out by the birth of Slaanesh, they're still on borrowed time because of the mistakes they made prior to that. Why should anyone take what these fools say at face value? For all their vaunted wisdom and farsight, they still get caught unawares such as the destruction the nids brought them.
Well, that's part of it. Like I said earlier about the 'taint', it has everything to do with the Cabal's perception of the Emperor's "utopia" idea as being tainted.
Going back to the Blood Ravens, the seeming fact that they don't suffer the flesh change or have universal psykers would suggest that they do not share their gene seed with the Thousand Sons. Of course their gene seed could be repressed in some unspecific way (grasping at straws here I realise) or they could be the end result of Magnus' repairing of his Legion. Maybe Magnus finally found a stable cure for the flaws but was unable to implement the new gene seed before the heresy occurred.
No. He wasn't. By the "time the Heresy occurred", Magnus had already drawn Prospero into the Warp and the Rubric of Ahriman came shortly after.
There is a Blood Ravens story (Goto?) which takes place on an Eldar planet inhabited by adherents to the Laughing God. A Thousand Sons sorcerer is there and he makes a comment to the Blood Raven character that suggests they are related.
I'm going to put this in the simplest and nicest terms I can.
Ignore every single thing that C.S. Goto has ever written, and do not ever ever ever attempt to use his works when discussing canon. Everything he wrote, he seemingly wrote as wrong as feasibly possible just to try to troll the 40k community. He has sects of Eldar worshiping Slaanesh, child molesting Eldar, and a great many other things that are so stupidly wrong that it makes some of the fan fiction out there positively look Shakespearean.
Age of darkness which is the latest HH books clears alot of unknown things from around the 40k universe 1 of them being that the blood ravens are indeed a successor chapter of the thousand sons. I wont spoil the story but it clears up the fact that he thousand sons Are not really traitor marines. If youve read the book a thousand sons you would know already ahriman and his kabal are not traitors. They are trying to prove that they arnt. The rubic was supposoe to help but it back fired. Anyway BL books dont always coincide with the. Table top game or video games so for fluff i follow the bl.
In the fluff ive read most of the early history of the chapter was destroyed like they where hiding something so it could very well be horus or any other chaos primarch for that reason.
The thing about Blood Ravens not being entirely composed of psykers.
Im not sure if the thousand sons were either. Its been a while since I read A Thousand Sons, so I could be talking out of an orifice other than my mouth, but wasn't the gist of the Rubric of Ahriman that the thousand sons with psychic powers had them enhanced, while the ones who were only weak psykers or not psykers at all became Rubric Marines. Perhaps it was only the case that all the named characters in the book were psykers, and they had plenty of non psyker or latent psyker members that we didn't meet.
They weren't all extremely powerful psykers(like Ahriman or the others), and some could only do things like conjure flame, kinetic barriers, and things of that nature.
Like i said get the new book. Ther is a thousand sons story that clears it up. Also there are the first happenings of the inquisition and the fortress on titan. Really good read
Automatically Appended Next Post: Like i said get the new book. Ther is a thousand sons story that clears it up. Also there are the first happenings of the inquisition and the fortress on titan. Really good read
This is GW fluff mixed with THQ fluff and a pinch of CS Goto, as with matt ward, anything can happen, especially when it has not been given much thought.
Im assuming that the remaining thousand sons that were sent out of orbit before the wolves attaxk are what made up the blood ravens. And i also assume that like many other of the loyal marines that escaped istavaan, the thpusand sons that remained in real space anx loyal were given an oppurtunity to make up for their primarchs betrayal
Sanguinius1385 wrote:Im assuming that the remaining thousand sons that were sent out of orbit before the wolves attaxk are what made up the blood ravens. And i also assume that like many other of the loyal marines that escaped istavaan, the thpusand sons that remained in real space anx loyal were given an oppurtunity to make up for their primarchs betrayal
i think they are probably laying the foundations for the Blood Raven origins with the tale in Age of Darkness.
Spoiler:
Why else would you draw attention to the fact that the last survivor just happens to have a Raven symbol on his arm. theres a line that is there solely to point this out. if its not important then why draw attention to it?
i know theres not much hard facts but it has more to it than some of the theories for many things 40k that are going around.
EDIT: lexicanum also states "Possessed of powerful Librarians, the Blood Ravens are noted for their ability to predict enemy movements " which was the particular aspect of the Thousand sons that the Corvidae excelled at. they also wore a Raven as their symbol as being a member of the Corvidae.
Netsurfer733 wrote:Just saw a clip that could illustrate my point all the more...but I'd love to see what you all say about it, anyway. What could this mean?
...I just was hoping folks would comment on what Abaddon was saying here? As in, the Blood Ravens not only being his brothers, but of his own flesh??? How he pretty much 'owns' them or what not? No one thinks that or any of the other things that he said in DoW2 point to Horus???
That game dialogue just sounds like Abaddon is angry that a rival is attempting to sacrifice an entire chapter without his approval. The chapter just happens to be the Blood Ravens because that's the default chapter used in the games.
It sounds like the sacrifice of the Blood Ravens to Khorne would give this rival a chance to become Warmaster, which is Abaddon's title. This is about a rival trying to take over (usurp) Abaddon's job of leading the chaos armies, something which Abaddon is rightly angry about.
The body and soul comment was made because Abaddon sees it as his right to decide when chapters like the Blood Ravens are destroyed or sacrificed to the gods. He's saying that their fate is his alone to decide as he is Warmaster, not this Kyras person.
I just created a post about their founding (spoilers below)
In the book Age of Darkness, one of the short Stories is Rebirth. To sum it up, A Squad of thousand sons was destroyed except for one trooper, who, blessed with the ability to see into the future/being Corvaede (sp?) saw his future was to reunite all the remnants of the Legion into a new, psyker heavy, Space Marine chapter fighting for the Emperor. The Corvaede's chapter symbol is a Black Raven, and their pre-heresy armor was the same color red. So, fluff wise, it was proved that they were Thousand Sons.
What are these counter-arguments against Blood Ravens being a Thousand Sons offshoot? Granted, the ravings from Prospero Burns(I think it was), while giving pause for consideration weren't concrete evidence, but in regard to Age of Darkness(my two cents)
Spoiler:
Rebirth from Age of Darkness seems to heavily hint in favor of that notion. I might be repeating points made earlier, and I apologize for that, because I haven't read much of this thread, but when you consider:
- The survivor uttered 'Knowledge is power'(this seems to be a saying that is unique to the Blood Ravens)
- The raven being a prominent part of the motif of his order's symbol
- Faintly, the 'red light of the angry magma fires' perhaps being 'blood', but that's pretty loose speculation
- Lastly, while all this speculation comes from more or less two paragraphs, I seriously doubt that such things would be on the last page of all places if this were coincidence.
Of course, there are some other loose connections, like the unusually high concentration of psykers in the chapter and foresight being the typical power, as well as prediction of enemy tactics being part of their battle doctrine.
While nothing is definite until GW out right says it, in terms of fluff, I think there are reasons to believe the Blood Ravens are indeed a Thousand Sons offshoot.
Kanluwen wrote:And like I said in your thread, it's not.
The Corvidae's 'Chapter Symbol' is a black raven skull.
From p15 of 'A Thousand Sons'
Sobek’s right shoulder-guard was stamped with a golden scarab, while the left bore the serpentine star icon of the Thousand Sons. In the centre of the star was a black raven’s head, smaller than the scarab, yet subtly given more relevance thanks to its positioning within the Legion’s symbol. This was the symbol of theCorvidae
Later on [p26] it mentions that Ahriman's cult of the Corvidae was at its lowest ebb and that the abilities of its members were lessened as the other cults gained closer ties to the immaterium. This could be suggested as a reason why the Blood Ravens are not all obvious psykers, because the psykic ability of the Thousand Sons was in part tied up with their relation to their primarch and in part with their dabbling in arcane knowledge which brought them into contact with the ruinous powers. As the Blood Ravens do not engage in such obvious heresies, they are not prone to the same problems as their possible forebears and also as obvious, they have no contact with a psykic being as powerful as Magnus the Red.
People seem to be really passionate about this subject so thought I'd stick my 2 pence worth in here.
From what has been said from every source, when put together it points at the Thousand Sons being the legion the Blood Ravens get their gene seed from and hence why the records of them before a certain date have had to be destroyed.
Now before the passionate flaming of "No they're not!" comes in as sorry but some peoples debunking seems to be verging on rage the idea is even suggested I'll provide some stuff that points to this.
Firstly the occurance of higher than normal numbers of librarians and the chapters overall desire to record everything and inquisitiveness.
While this may stem from not knowing their chapters origins it is an example of Thousand Sons tendancies.
Next the C.S Goto stuff, which as it's Black Library stands as 40k background.
The whole thing in Tempest is the best example imo with Ahriman explaining to the librarian he knows Vidya, the origins of the founding etc in hints.
Now we come to the newer stuff.
As has been revealed there were some Thousand Sons not pulled into the warp suggesting it was just those present on Prospero which were transported, either by design or simply because they couldn't be with that planet as the centre of the effect.
since a successor chapter does not keep the original heraldry it can be assumed the heraldry is either new eg: Black Templar heraldry compared to their founding chapter the Imperial fist, or it is taken from elements in part or whole from the founding chapter. Examples of each would be the Crimson Fists recolouring from Imperial Fists and the DA/BA successors who have elements of their parent chapters heraldry in their design. with the BT heraldry coming from the captain who was made chapter master then also a new chapter masters heraldry could be used.
So a surviving TS captain from the Corvidae might be inspired to use a Raven type basis, possibly with the blood drop as remembrance of the Prospero massacre. Sheer theory but it's one no one has mentioned for the symbol of the Blood Ravens unless I missed it.
Next the psyker the TS pretty much kill to know what is coming. She cries out about the "Ravens of Blood" (not got the book to hand so can't quote entire line but it is to do with the future of the legion).
Now the gene seed problem. Here there can be only theory as explanations.
1) The gene seed of the surviving TS who the Emperor realised were pawns of the chaos gods schemes was somehow purified enough to deal with the flesh change. Why would he do this? Why would anyone let a loyal Death Guard, Emperors Children or Son of Horus live? There is/was/will be a use for them perhaps. He did after all come to realise Magnus was right, Horus was coming to kick his ass in the name of chaos after he sent Russ to bring Mugnus back, it was the manipulations of others that led Russ to try to wipe out the Legion.
2) Hybrid gene seed perhaps. There has been veiled references to gene seed stocks being tested upon etc and crossed to see if stable seed can be brought about without the flaws of the parent chapters/legions. It was suggested the 13th founding used some gene seed from the Legions which fell to chaos maybe why Fabius was so interested in getting his hands on it.
3) Design of the "Warp Entity"? Maybe Tzeentch has further use for these marines further down the line.
4) Mutation. Can't see any founding Legions with spikes coming out their extremities anywhere... Gene seed has been known to mutate with odd consequences.
5) We're being handed red fish in order for THQ to have a continuing franchise where the BR are centre peice in this quest and these hints are here just for the excitement of "but a traitor legion still serves the Emprah!". still with the inquisition being founded on loyalists from the traitor legions it would fit.
I don't think that the two deleted legions will have had an influence as war with one of them is mentioned between Magnus and Lorgar in the First Heretic in their discussion. With the suggestion that marines who possibly stayed loyal in insurrection, or were stable enough in gene seed after a mass mutation or something were taken into the Ultramarine chapter it shows that with space marine resources being valuable the Imperium isn't just going to throw them away if they are "salvagable"
All in all take into consideration that the heraldry of the captains order could be the basis for the BR heraldry not an exact copy and GW/BL/ the conspiritors in the BR inquisition are leading us towards the TS being their founding legion.
Seem to remember it done in secret and hinted at in writings about it, either late RT/2nd ed and expanded on with the index astartes article. The last I'm not 100% on, so feel free to check on it and let me know. As I a) don't have all the old white dwarves I used to and b) wouldn't sit and go through everything with a fine tooth comb just to argue on the internet as my time is precious to me if anyone can check the cursed founding and say either way, tis cool
Vermillion wrote:Seem to remember it done in secret and hinted at in writings about it, either late RT/2nd ed and expanded on with the index astartes article. The last I'm not 100% on, so feel free to check on it and let me know. As I a) don't have all the old white dwarves I used to and b) wouldn't sit and go through everything with a fine tooth comb just to argue on the internet as my time is precious to me if anyone can check the cursed founding and say either way, tis cool
You may be thinking of the 21st Founding...
The 13th was the Dark Founding IIRC...
A - They have a Raven Head as their symbol so that is the same.
B - Corax killed the mutants yes?. But what if those who had the minor mutations (e.g psyker) then maybe Corax scattered them to the warp to fend for themselves. But they kept the Raven insignia but painted their armour Red and bone.
OR if you Read the visions of Heresy book it shows all the legions but their is one chapter that is classed as 'classified' maybe these are the Blood Ravens who where given a gene-seed from maybe the emperor or a Unknown Primarch
They can't be the Raven Guard either, KnightOfTheRaven.
The reason being that they don't, just like they don't for any other known and stable gene-seed, exhibit any of the flaws. With Raven Guard and their Successors(Raptors Chapter, most notably) they exhibit the same marble white skin and jet-black hair with their eyes going all black as the Astartes ages.
Matt070 wrote:I'm kinda inclined to go with one of the previous ideas that it could be Corax, some of the ones that he didnt destroy, if there were any.
Only other speculation is that they are from one of the missing primarchs, easiest explanation too as GW probably didnt think that much into the fluff when the Blood Ravens were first thought up.
But i definately agree that they are not from Horus or Magnus.
Weren't the marines of those Legions rolled up with the Ultramarines after one or both of the Primarchs were executed?
Matt070 wrote:I'm kinda inclined to go with one of the previous ideas that it could be Corax, some of the ones that he didnt destroy, if there were any.
Only other speculation is that they are from one of the missing primarchs, easiest explanation too as GW probably didnt think that much into the fluff when the Blood Ravens were first thought up.
But i definately agree that they are not from Horus or Magnus.
Weren't the marines of those Legions rolled up with the Ultramarines after one or both of the Primarchs were executed?
Long story short: we don't know. There's vague hints at it in the HH books, where a Word Bearer makes the accusation that the Ultramarines are only so large because they took in the leftovers from those Legions.
On a different train of thought, were the Thousand Sons still engaging in the practice of sending lower-ranking members of their Legion to study with other Legions when the sanction of the sixth was declared? If so, any of those guys could be the root of the new Ravens. It could even be that the loyalist Primarchs (or just Russ) arranged this as a form of redemption after discovering they were fooled by Horus and Magnus was loyal after all.
It looks like they weren't, because the Council of Nikea pretty much desanctioned psykers--which was the main reason why the Thousand Sons were 'studying' with the other Legions. They were seemingly trying to prove the importance of the Librarium to the Legions.
Yes, but it seems no one actually cared about the prohibition on librarians. Plus, things happened at a frantic pace afterwards, so the other Legions may have not had the time/resources/inclination to provide these single Astartes a warp-capable ship. Or perhaps they did send them home, but with the vagaries of warp travel they arrived way after the sacking of Prospero.
In the 21st Founding geneseed was tampered with and essentially all the traitor legions had another successor founded. Look more into the Badab War and you'll see that there's loyalist chapter that matches everyone of the traitor legions. Its only argued so much about the Blood Ravens being TSons because of all the attention they got after fact. I mean there's far less people arguing that the Sons of Anateus aren't Death Guard.
Also isn't either Abnett or McNeill quoted at GamesDay saying something to the effect of "people still don't think they're related? I thought i made it super obvious."
I think you all might be missing the obvious here. I think they dont know who thier primarch is because they acctually have two primarchs. corax and sanguinius. loo at thier chapter symbol its a mix of those two chapters
DutchKillsRambo wrote:In the 21st Founding geneseed was tampered with and essentially all the traitor legions had another successor founded. Look more into the Badab War and you'll see that there's loyalist chapter that matches everyone of the traitor legions. Its only argued so much about the Blood Ravens being TSons because of all the attention they got after fact. I mean there's far less people arguing that the Sons of Anateus aren't Death Guard.
It's only argued about because there's no real solid ties. There's hints and vagueries, and GW has basically said they're not going to say one way or the other.
Also isn't either Abnett or McNeill quoted at GamesDay saying something to the effect of "people still don't think they're related? I thought i made it super obvious."
Whatever you think about Goto's writing, and I agree with you, he didn't present that concept without signoff from GW. Knowing that theory is out there, Black Library authors continue to add fuel to the fire with their T Sons Heresy stories. The hints are not accidental, but they're also just hints, and they leave some barriers still unresolved.
Does that mean that T Sons are for sure related to the Blood Ravens? No. Is it a (strong) possibility GW wants out there? Yes.
Assuming Chris Wraight continues to have well received work, we'll probably see the return of Arvida at some point, and that might give us that final step towards confirmation.
And I think you're overestimating the amount of freedom one freelancer can have on the IP. It's true he made mistakes and took liberties. However, basic story cncepts were still signed off on even if the details weren't.
Just like you, I read the BL forum posts back in the day, and saw the fallout from his Deathwatch stuff. There's been a much tighter editorial attempt to make sure writers understand and stay true to the 40k details.
All that being said, we can all agree that Goto was trying to make a connection in his work. As pointed out, he actuallly came out and said it.
Given that current GW authors know this, and so does the editorial team, the hints in the Heresy novels are interesting. They certainly do nothing to break the connection, and can certainly be read as links.
Does that mean there's a definite link between the Blood Ravens and the T Sons? No. But does it mean that GW at least wants you to think there could be? Pretty much.
Don't forget, the author who wrote the Chapter Approved for the Blood Ravens is none other than G. McNeill. If anyone was familiar with what his hints in Thousand Sons could point to, it was him. I'm of the opinion that Mr. McNeill imagines a tie there too.
Well, it's another person who jumps in with their 'new' argument when the same thing is discussed on the same page. Please, read the thread or at least the most recent few pages so you don't repeat the something.
Kanluwen wrote:I really think you're overestimating the concept involvement that GW had when Goto was there.
You really do notice a change in the way canon has been maintained since Goto no longer works there.
He was still a BL author who invented much of the Blood Raven backstory. You are right to say that canon is maintained differently now, but attributing that to Goto's departure is a bit of a fallacy when it's really just BL growing up.
I know you don't want to think that Magnus is the Primarch of the Blood Ravens, but as I've said before to you, thinking anything else is missing the huge winks that the Black Library is giving us.
