The Imperium does a lot of deplorable things, is the use of child soldiers one of them? The Sabbat Worlds Crusade has a conscription age of 18 which in the modern western world we consider normal. However, how old is a WhiteShield? 16? This may imply there isn't a standard age for conscription empire-wide. Could some worlds use even younger troops?

I'd agree that whiteshields would fall under child soldiers, and there's probably a load of other worlds that do the same, most notably every single Deathworld in the Galaxy.

Doesn't a scout become a full fledged battle brother around the age of 18? (my memory is fuzzy)

Regardless since SM are recruited at such a young age they no doubt see combat very early in life.

Ma55ter_fett wrote:Doesn't a scout become a full fledged battle brother around the age of 18? (my memory is fuzzy)

Regardless since SM are recruited at such a young age they no doubt see combat very early in life.

Not really talking about Space Marines here. There are many chapters that take 12 year olds and make them fight to the death.

Talking about what's the Imperial Guards stance on child-soldiers.

The Whiteshields would certainly explain why all Cadians are such natural soldiers; it's been drummed into them since they passed puberty. Let's not forget that conscripts under 18 were taken during the Middle Ages and that desperate times call for desperate measures.

Soldiers under 18 were taken in big numbers in much later conflicts than the mdidle ages by developed countries, the US Civil War being a pretty good example.

or right now in Africa.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Imperium does a lot of deplorable things, is the use of child soldiers one of them? The Sabbat Worlds Crusade has a conscription age of 18 which in the modern western world we consider normal. However, how old is a WhiteShield? 16? This may imply there isn't a standard age for conscription empire-wide. Could some worlds use even younger troops?

Most Whiteshields are 16 upon their induction, 18-20 when they've 'taken the Aquila' and been fully inducted into the Guard.

But there's seemingly a caveat. Most Whiteshields, upon their induction, won't see any kind of 'active' duty until they're at least 17.

Well, I guess cild soldiers are a quite rare sight in the IoM.

First of all, the battlefields of the 41st millenium are so deadly that the bulk of the Imperial armed forces are highly trained (according to our military standards). Don't forget that the IG usually consists of the best veterans amongst the Imperial PDFs. And yet, these elite forces are getting chewed up like marshmallows in uncountable battles. So I guess that child soldiers would be of no use at all to the IoM in the field.

However, in various pieces of fluff (especially concerning Tyranid invasions), when a major citadel or hive was besieged for months by an implacable foe, all suitable men were given a weapon while the children and the women were tasked with ammo supplies, wounded recovery, etc...

Finally, GW would simply avoid publishing something about the use of child soldiers in one of its main factions since this kind of issue is a bit too "controversial".

They probably do, but only if the child want to go. It would be stupid to give away the priceless thing for all planets. Every child can grow up and become something more useful for the community instead die in some trench on some god-forsaken rock...
In "Fifteen Hours" I read that not all Imperial worlds give their population to the Guard, only ones with highly trained troops (like Cadia or Elysia). But, when needed, some worlds can form IG Regiments, trained them and send them to the front. But they only pick man from 25 - 45 years, not small children or older people.

It depends how desperate a world is; if you a large population, then there's no point taking weak children when you can go for age where someone is at their peak. If a world is running out if soldiers, then you'll give a gun to anyone who can pull a trigger. Germany was like this at the end of WW2.

The Imperium has no greater resource than people. So much so that it can be a selective about which people it uses.

Imperial Guardsmen are highly trained, battle-hardened individuals for the most part. 12 year olds aren't typically filling that bill.

Alright, so basically I think the IG has an enlistment age of 18 as standard practice. However like most things The Imperium doesn't care what you do on your own planet as long as you pay your tithe. So more questionable worlds may have child soldiers. So worlds like Cadia have children under arms but you'll still find that Cadian Imperial Guardsmen are all over 18.
Where things ge thornier is when organization like The Whiteshields get shipped off-world by the Imperial Navy. At that point isn't the IoM condoning and using child soldiers? They are using their resources to deploy them.

Child Soldiers definitely exists in the Imperium, (known as Probates or Whiteshields). In the IG codex their induction into becoming a guardsman is seen more as a rite of manhood than a simple promotion.

As other have already stated, most planets will use child soldiers if under threat, but IG regiments tend to only accept the top notch soldiers to ship out, and I'd guess soldiers that can't even shave yet might not be up to standard. Or they might be perfect for bulking up Veteran Regiments.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Child Soldiers definitely exists in the Imperium, (known as Probates or Whiteshields). In the IG codex their induction into becoming a guardsman is seen more as a rite of manhood than a simple promotion.

As other have already stated, most planets will use child soldiers if under threat, but IG regiments tend to only accept the top notch soldiers to ship out, and I'd guess soldiers that can't even shave yet might not be up to standard. Or they might be perfect for bulking up Veteran Regiments.

That's what I'm saying. I guess the Thread Title should be 'Does The Imperial Guard use child-soldiers?". There are definately child-soldiers in the grim darkness of the 41st millenium because there's everything but I don't think it's approved of by munitorium regulations.

Children you call them? They can pull a trigger just as well as veterans, and they have the spirit of a bull narthax. Call them children if you wish - I call them troops. - Colonel Marus Cullen, Pannonia 5th Infantry Regiment on Whiteshields

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Child Soldiers definitely exists in the Imperium, (known as Probates or Whiteshields). In the IG codex their induction into becoming a guardsman is seen more as a rite of manhood than a simple promotion.

As other have already stated, most planets will use child soldiers if under threat, but IG regiments tend to only accept the top notch soldiers to ship out, and I'd guess soldiers that can't even shave yet might not be up to standard. Or they might be perfect for bulking up Veteran Regiments.

That's what I'm saying. I guess the Thread Title should be 'Does The Imperial Guard use child-soldiers?". There are definately child-soldiers in the grim darkness of the 41st millenium because there's everything but I don't think it's approved of by munitorium regulations.

There are children-solders for sure, you will find them probably on the following worlds:

1. Worlds that are on the brink of defeat and using their last resort to defend themselves (like Germany at the end of WW2 ).
2. Kids who want's more in life than to grow up being poor in overpopulated Hive-Cities. ( like Necromunda ).
3. Military organized worlds ( like Cadia or Armageddon ).

Retribution wrote:Children you call them? They can pull a trigger just as well as veterans, and they have the spirit of a bull narthax. Call them children if you wish - I call them troops. - Colonel Marus Cullen, Pannonia 5th Infantry Regiment on Whiteshields

I assume Colonel Mares Cullen is a modern-day African warlord?

I wouldn't call Cadian Whiteshields "Child Soldiers", to be honest.

16, when you're in a culture and raised from childhood to puberty to be a soldier?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Retribution wrote:Children you call them? They can pull a trigger just as well as veterans, and they have the spirit of a bull narthax. Call them children if you wish - I call them troops. - Colonel Marus Cullen, Pannonia 5th Infantry Regiment on Whiteshields

I assume Colonel Mares Cullen is a modern-day African warlord?

I see what you did there.

Agreed, Kanluwen. Even before then they train in the Youth Armies and so are much more prepared to enter the military at a young age. Also, I seem to remember someone calculating in another thread that even on war-torn Armageddon only 0.1% of the population are currently in the Guard and the IG codex states that the Imperium benefits from near-limitless manpower. When there's not a shortage of recruits, there's simply no need to scrape the bottom of the barrel.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Retribution wrote:Children you call them? They can pull a trigger just as well as veterans, and they have the spirit of a bull narthax. Call them children if you wish - I call them troops. - Colonel Marus Cullen, Pannonia 5th Infantry Regiment on Whiteshields

I assume Colonel Mares Cullen is a modern-day African warlord?

I see what you did there.

I'm glad someone did. The resounding approval of the use of child soldiers here is disquieting.

Actually there's one clarification needed - what is child-soldier?
As current western legal (and draft/recruitment) age of 18 is also contradictory - for ex. 19 y.o. US soldier have full right to die in Afghanistan but not to buy strong alcohol at home.

And considering Imperium - for PDF it must depend on planet's traditions, there's current cultures where 14-15 is perfectly good age for warrior/soldier, even 11 for initial training.

IG - iirc (except "adopted"/childrens of camp followers, but not sure that they havve legal guardsman status) 18 is minimum, at least iirc "Dead Men Walking", and there's not many planets so dedicated at providing IG regiments as Krieg.

Krieg is kind of a weird outlier though.

It's been implied multiple times that there's "purebred" Kriegers, who are born the 'proper' way, raised right, etc...

And then there's the rest of the poor bastards, who are clones.

chyron wrote:Actually there's one clarification needed - what is child-soldier?
As current western legal (and draft/recruitment) age of 18 is also contradictory - for ex. 19 y.o. US soldier have full right to die in Afghanistan but not to buy strong alcohol at home.

And considering Imperium - for PDF it must depend on planet's traditions, there's current cultures where 14-15 is perfectly good age for warrior/soldier, even 11 for initial training.

IG - iirc (except "adopted"/childrens of camp followers, but not sure that they havve legal guardsman status) 18 is minimum, at least iirc "Dead Men Walking", and there's not many planets so dedicated at providing IG regiments as Krieg.

http://www.child-soldiers.org/childsoldiers/questions-and-answers

chyron wrote:Actually there's one clarification needed - what is child-soldier?
As current western legal (and draft/recruitment) age of 18 is also contradictory - for ex. 19 y.o. US soldier have full right to die in Afghanistan but not to buy strong alcohol at home.

And considering Imperium - for PDF it must depend on planet's traditions, there's current cultures where 14-15 is perfectly good age for warrior/soldier, even 11 for initial training.

Yeah, there's a bit of an odd cultural block here. Someone who's 17 is a "child soldier," while someone a few months older than them at 18 is perfectly fine and normal. It reminds me of a story about the factories that make Apple products using "child labor!" because a handful of workers were a few months shy of 16, all of whom were 16 by the time the story broke.

Of course, I wouldn't call the much younger kids used by African warlords "child soldiers" either, because they're not soldiers, they're just glorified street gangs...

chyron wrote:Actually there's one clarification needed - what is child-soldier?
As current western legal (and draft/recruitment) age of 18 is also contradictory - for ex. 19 y.o. US soldier have full right to die in Afghanistan but not to buy strong alcohol at home.

There are heaps of contradictions in age and responsibility. For example, in Aus you are criminally responsible at 14 but cannot have sex untill 16. This has lead to instances where 14-15 year-olds taking nude photos of themselves have been charged with distributing Child pornography.


But that's getting WAY off track here. Simply put, by the standards of modern International treaties today the Imperium utilises child soldiers, and to a large extent at that.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

chyron wrote:Actually there's one clarification needed - what is child-soldier?
As current western legal (and draft/recruitment) age of 18 is also contradictory - for ex. 19 y.o. US soldier have full right to die in Afghanistan but not to buy strong alcohol at home.

And considering Imperium - for PDF it must depend on planet's traditions, there's current cultures where 14-15 is perfectly good age for warrior/soldier, even 11 for initial training.

Yeah, there's a bit of an odd cultural block here. Someone who's 17 is a "child soldier," while someone a few months older than them at 18 is perfectly fine and normal. It reminds me of a story about the factories that make Apple products using "child labor!" because a handful of workers were a few months shy of 16, all of whom were 16 by the time the story broke.

Of course, I wouldn't call the much younger kids used by African warlords "child soldiers" either, because they're not soldiers, they're just glorified street gangs...

That's not true. Children are abducted and brainwashed by the "army" and forced to kill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

chyron wrote:Actually there's one clarification needed - what is child-soldier?
As current western legal (and draft/recruitment) age of 18 is also contradictory - for ex. 19 y.o. US soldier have full right to die in Afghanistan but not to buy strong alcohol at home.

But that's getting WAY of track here. Simply put, by the standards of modern International treaties today the Imperium utilises child soldiers, and to a large extent at that.

I don't think they do actually. I think individual planets use them but The IG itself has the 18 year age limit.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

chyron wrote:Actually there's one clarification needed - what is child-soldier?
As current western legal (and draft/recruitment) age of 18 is also contradictory - for ex. 19 y.o. US soldier have full right to die in Afghanistan but not to buy strong alcohol at home.

And considering Imperium - for PDF it must depend on planet's traditions, there's current cultures where 14-15 is perfectly good age for warrior/soldier, even 11 for initial training.

Yeah, there's a bit of an odd cultural block here. Someone who's 17 is a "child soldier," while someone a few months older than them at 18 is perfectly fine and normal. It reminds me of a story about the factories that make Apple products using "child labor!" because a handful of workers were a few months shy of 16, all of whom were 16 by the time the story broke.

Of course, I wouldn't call the much younger kids used by African warlords "child soldiers" either, because they're not soldiers, they're just glorified street gangs...

That's not true. Children are abducted and brainwashed by the "army" and forced to kill.

Yeah, but if you get into the nitty gritty of it: these "child soldiers" really are, for the most part, glorified street gangs.

They employ the same psychology, methods, etc.

The problem is that these "child soldiers" are also these warlords' first line of defense when they fight the legitimate governments or their rivals--thus, gangsters become "soldiers".

I think people here are being a bit too restrictive with the word 'Soldier'. It certainly applies to these cases in Africa, but if you don't think so then call them combatants instead.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I don't think they do actually. I think individual planets use them but The IG itself has the 18 year age limit.

As far as we know, there is no piece of fluff that states any age limit for induction in the Guard.

As deplorable as it is in todays terms, in a universe where complete planetary genocide is considered 'acceptable losses', child labour and child soldiers are really not that surprising.

However, since the IG only take the best of the PDF, I think we can agree that it's unlikely that many soldiers are still children by the time they make it to the PDF.

I would be VERY surprised to find that the Departmento Munitorum cared in the slightest how old a soldier was - as long as they can fight it's irrelevant.

ArbitorIan wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I don't think they do actually. I think individual planets use them but The IG itself has the 18 year age limit.

As far as we know, there is no piece of fluff that states any age limit for induction in the Guard.

As deplorable as it is in todays terms, in a universe where complete planetary genocide is considered 'acceptable losses', child labour and child soldiers are really not that surprising.

However, since the IG only take the best of the PDF, I think we can agree that it's unlikely that many soldiers are still children by the time they make it to the PDF.

I would be VERY surprised to find that the Departmento Munitorum cared in the slightest how old a soldier was - as long as they can fight it's irrelevant.

The Tanith 1st has an 18 year age limit. Now one could argue that's just Warmaster Macaroth's decree but I don't get that impression. I believe is a munitorium regulation.

In the IG Codex some worlds were inducted into the Imperial Guard on a monumental scale, more than 2/3 of the population. That has to include children.

In most situations using training time and giving a lasgun, flak armour and rations to a child soldier would be a fiscal liability. Child soldiers are employed by militias in Africa largely for the negative impact they have on morale, and most of the Imperium's foes would have no such qualms.

Owain wrote:In most situations using training time and giving a lasgun, flak armour and rations to a child soldier would be a fiscal liability.

It'd just be like training any other guardsman, just younger, and the Administratum certainly doesn't exhibit a great deal of empathy. If the situation calls for more bodies then rest assured children will be concripted along with the rest.

Child soldiers are employed by militias in Africa largely for the negative impact they have on morale, and most of the Imperium's foes would have no such qualms.

Not so, the indoctrination is key to secuing a healthy supply of fresh footsoldiers. And that's the males.

Although Whiteshields are deployed at 16 Cadian children can prep a gun and use it from when they can walk, as read in the eye of terror codex.

While IG armies probably wouldn't use children, a world that is invaded would use and one that can fire a gun to help defend it.

I dont think that children would be recruited, but I could picture the children of planets going to PT meetings and mock training's to prepare for their inevitable enlistment into the guard. They might do it for fun to, work in a factory forever or go to pre-guard training to get off the assembly line once in a while.

chyron wrote:Actually there's one clarification needed - what is child-soldier?
As current western legal (and draft/recruitment) age of 18 is also contradictory - for ex. 19 y.o. US soldier have full right to die in Afghanistan but not to buy strong alcohol at home.

I dont the West is contradictory, just the USA.

I mean, is there any other first world nation that barrs a fighting man from having a pint?! Certainly not here in Blighty..

Frankly i think its a disgrace!

mattyrm wrote:

chyron wrote:Actually there's one clarification needed - what is child-soldier?
As current western legal (and draft/recruitment) age of 18 is also contradictory - for ex. 19 y.o. US soldier have full right to die in Afghanistan but not to buy strong alcohol at home.

I dont the West is contradictory, just the USA.

I mean, is there any other first world nation that barrs a fighting man from having a pint?! Certainly not here in Blighty..

Frankly i think its a disgrace!

Actually base commanders have the right to lower the drinking age on base.

However, yes the fact that I can fight and die for my country but cant drink in it since im only 19 is quite wrong. Im joining the (USAF)

Though honestly in the imperium I doubt there is very much red tape on lowering the age of recruitment if need be.

Guardsman Gary: "Sir! The enemy is advancing for an all-out assault!"
Commander Carl: "Send in... THE KINDERGUARD!"

bonerjamz wrote:Guardsman Gary: "Sir! The enemy is advancing for an all-out assault!"
Commander Carl: "Send in... THE KINDERGUARD!"

NO! WHO WILL DRAW THE PROPAGANDA POSTERS!?!?!?!?!

What about death worlds?

You'd think that anyone who survived to 10 on Catachan would be more than capable of fulfilling the role of a IG grunt on any other world.

Its the Imperium, they chuck a few thousand men a day at the enemy pointlessly, generals can get desperate-or a little insane-, it may be that the number of men of conscriptable age has rapidly decreased with the whole grindfest thing and thus the consciption age is lowered-and increased if it hasn't already been- so as to still have people to man the trenches when the enemy come. Hey if your worlds going to die I don't think people much care about the morality of the situation. Oh and there's always Brin Milo... ^^'

I'm pretty sure the Cadians have child corps.

bonerjamz wrote:
Guardsman Gary: "Sir! The enemy is advancing for an all-out assault!"
Commander Carl: "Send in... THE KINDERGUARD!"


NO! WHO WILL DRAW THE PROPAGANDA POSTERS!?!?!?!?!

All right... I know 40k is fantasy... unfortunately child-soldiers are not so I'd avoid this kind of humour here...

Btw... It seems that IoM is a mesh-up of every felony mankind has done in history ( Nazi-style hatred for xenos, Soviet political control and propaganda, spanish inquisition oprressive religion etc...) so I think It's totally possible to see 13 yo whiteshields...

mattyrm wrote:
I dont the West is contradictory, just the USA.

I mean, is there any other first world nation that barrs a fighting man from having a pint?! Certainly not here in Blighty..

Actually, I'm pretty sure that in England you can join the military at 16 and serve overseas at 17, while only being allowed to vote and purchase alcohol at 18. Not to mention you can pay taxes before you can vote.

Frankly i think its a disgrace!

True.


As to the actual topic, I agree with the opinion that adults would be the preferred soldiers, but children be used if necessary. Not that you can really argue against that - if they're going to be murdered by a horde of xenos or daemons anyway, there's nothing really wrong with allowing them to defend their families, surely?

I'm pretty sure if the planet earth had the possibility of getting attacked and wiped out to the last man from a alien race, that recruitment age would drop pretty low.

C:IG wrote:

925.M41
Waaagh! Grax descends upon the Ryza system. Regiments are raised from all planets within ten light years, including the worlds of Barac, Ulani, Dulma'lin and Catachan. To meet the additional tithe requirements, the world of Dulma'lin drafts four-fifths of its total populace.

Assuming the world of Dulma'lin has a somewhat "regular" or "normal" age distribution, like maybe Grant County, North Dakota...


...yeah. If they had to enlist 80% of their populace, they must have conscripted EVERYONE from 80-year-old grandpas and grandmas to 10-year-old boys and girls, maybe younger. I actually whipped out a calculator and typed this in.

The only part of the population that was probably left were toddlers, small children and a skeleton crew of women to care for them...and maybe some men to ensure that the population grows again. If you assume that you need SOME grown men and women to actually keep the planet working - agriculture, police, infrastructure - recruitment age probably dropped even lower, maybe to around 8 years old.

So, yeah, it needs just an Ork Waaagh! a few system away and you'll have child soldiers all over the place. Seems to be a regular Munitorum strategy.

Postscriptum:

C:IG, p.14
Before induction, all Cadians must first serve in the Youth Army, joining one of the so-called Whiteshield platoons who are distinguished by a white stripe running from the front to the back of their helmets. [...] "Any Cadian who can't field-strip his own lasgun by age ten was born on the wrong planet" - Anon

So, the best-known regiment in the Imperium also uses child soldiers by today's definition on a continuous, traditional basis. This might be, of course, because Cadia is the Gate to the Eye of Terror.

mattyrm wrote:

I dont the West is contradictory, just the USA.

I mean, is there any other first world nation that barrs a fighting man from having a pint?! Certainly not here in Blighty..

Frankly i think its a disgrace!

Offtopic, first-world =/= western, as division to West and East is centuries older than 1st-2nd-3rd world (which is actually just about half a century old). For ex. Vladivostok is considered culturally western city compared to Teheran or even Stambul as geography has no voice on this. And USSR and Russian Federation (dunno 'bout pre-Revolution Empire) also have legal age for strong drinks set to 21. And so "i 'm not too old to die in Afghan but too young to drink at hometown" was part of anti-war propaganda for quite a while.

On topic - but we all agree that mentioned facts of conscription is conscription to PDF fighting on native soil, not to IG regiment sent off as planetary tithe. And i think every current earth nation has stories of child soldiers from some desperate times.

punkow wrote:

bonerjamz wrote:
Guardsman Gary: "Sir! The enemy is advancing for an all-out assault!"
Commander Carl: "Send in... THE KINDERGUARD!"


NO! WHO WILL DRAW THE PROPAGANDA POSTERS!?!?!?!?!

All right... I know 40k is fantasy... unfortunately child-soldiers are not so I'd avoid this kind of humour here...

Btw... It seems that IoM is a mesh-up of every felony mankind has done in history ( Nazi-style hatred for xenos, Soviet political control and propaganda, spanish inquisition oprressive religion etc...) so I think It's totally possible to see 13 yo whiteshields...

lol it is fantasy you said it yourself. However is it not the same as making fun of thousands of soldiers a day being thrown at Tyranids, Chaos, necrons, etc.? This is the thread "Does The Imperium use Child-Soldiers?" right? Not "Why do African militia use child soldiers?"

Its a game there is no reason not to poke fun, especially at imaginary controversial issues. im sorry if you took offense but these 40K children dot exist.

As far as I know, Whiteshields are usually the children of Guard members on active duty. This would make them attuned to the rigors and horrors of war the minute they can see. Injured parents etc. Hence they would probably mature much faster than normal and cannot be considered children but for thier age. These child soldiers also do not see actual combat until thier official induction into the Guard unless necessary.

Wasn't there a piece of fluff that said "If a cadian didnt know how to dismantle and assemble his lasgun buy age 10, he was born on the wrong planet" or something to that effect?

Posted above Mecha...
4 posts above you.

Expected as much, but I really didnt want to read all that blurp (did read the first page though).

Also, has anyone mentioned Cherubs yet?

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Also, has anyone mentioned Cherubs yet?

Like the majority of servitors these are grown. Still creepy, but not really children.

Plus, they're not really "soldiers".

They are the closest things to actual children depicted in 40k, but I digress.

We must also considered what age is considered a child in 40K. With all of these threats to man and all of the death and disease of 40k it would be pretty hard to have a "childhood" as we know it.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:We must also considered what age is considered a child in 40K. With all of these threats to man and all of the death and disease of 40k it would be pretty hard to have a "childhood" as we know it.

Apparently the notion of 'childhood' was non-existent until the 17-18th century. It, like many notions of human rights and equality, is a relatively recent concept.

Just a random guess, but I would assume that all these chitlins would be of more use to the Imperial war efforts serving Him On Earth within a manufactorium. I could see the utility of drafting up a load of 8 year olds for a decade log journey to the far side of the Imperium, training the whole way.

Clicking random page on Lexicanum brought me this:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Marus_Cullen

UselessSage wrote:Just a random guess, but I would assume that all these chitlins would be of more use to the Imperial war efforts serving Him On Earth within a manufactorium. I could see the utility of drafting up a load of 8 year olds for a decade log journey to the far side of the Imperium, training the whole way.

That could definitely play a big part.

sphynx wrote:Clicking random page on Lexicanum brought me this:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Marus_Cullen

That doesn't mean that they are children, maybe he said that and he really mean "so what if they are new recruits, they can fight well as veterans"
As I understood, Whiteshields are just less trained solders than Guardsman. Doesn't mean necessarily that they are children.

Brother Coa wrote:

sphynx wrote:Clicking random page on Lexicanum brought me this:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Marus_Cullen

That doesn't mean that they are children, maybe he said that and he really mean "so what if they are new recruits, they can fight well as veterans"
As I understood, Whiteshields are just less trained solders than Guardsman. Doesn't mean necessarily that they are children.

This is true, the term 'Whiteshield' doesn't necesarily mean a child (the name itself is Cadian in origin). However, the official term 'Probitor' (IG dex) generally does.

Whitesheilds are children. About 16 I reckon. The other Cadians call them "gun-babies".

That's less because they're children, more because none of them have really been involved in actual combat.

and because they're children.

16 is by no means a child.

you're 16 aren't you?

23, actually.

I wouldn't consider anyone over the age of 12 a 'child', but I sure as hell wouldn't consider them an 'adult'.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:We must also considered what age is considered a child in 40K. With all of these threats to man and all of the death and disease of 40k it would be pretty hard to have a "childhood" as we know it.

Most Imperial wolds aren't shi*holes so you can live a happy childhood.

Kanluwen wrote:23, actually.

I wouldn't consider anyone over the age of 12 a 'child', but I sure as hell wouldn't consider them an 'adult'.

Maybe you want the USMC filed out with 13 year olds. I don't think its a good idea.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:23, actually.

I wouldn't consider anyone over the age of 12 a 'child', but I sure as hell wouldn't consider them an 'adult'.

Maybe you want the USMC filled out with 13 year olds. I don't think its a good idea.

Um, what the hell does that have to do with anything?

Just because they're not a 'child' doesn't mean they're an 'adult'.

There's a reason why there's this magical term used to describe the age bracket of 13-19.

I think it's called the teenage years.

I think a 16 year old is a kid. We'll have to agree to disagree. Fortunately, the law agrees with me.

Not really. 16 is the age of consent in most Western countries, several countries let you drink at 16, etc.

Some 16 year olds do act like kids, sure. But there also are 16 year olds who are more mature than some adults.

18, however, is the age that you're legally considered an adult in most countries.

Kanluwen wrote:Not really. 16 is the age of consent in most Western countries, several countries let you drink at 16, etc.

Some 16 year olds do act like kids, sure. But there also are 16 year olds who are more mature than some adults.

18, however, is the age that you're legally considered an adult in most countries.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Not really. 16 is the age of consent in most Western countries, several countries let you drink at 16, etc.

Some 16 year olds do act like kids, sure. But there also are 16 year olds who are more mature than some adults.

18, however, is the age that you're legally considered an adult in most countries.

...Which doesn't mean you're considered a child at 16, KC.

In those vague in between years, you're legally considered a 'minor' and your parents maintain responsibility for you but you can be legally emancipated starting around age 16.

You can start being tried as an adult for 'horrendous crimes' starting around age 13-14, depending on the severity of the case.

Having actually served alongside 18-21 year old conscripts, I have to say that 16 is way too young. Conscription is generally bad, and young adults just want to be young adults.

I'd rather have 5 guys with me who want to be there, than 15 guys who don't.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Having actually served alongside 18-21 year old conscripts, I have to say that 16 is way too young. Conscription is generally bad, and young adults just want to be young adults.

I'd rather have 5 guys with me who want to be there, than 15 guys who don't.

When you're talking about Cadians, which is the case with Whiteshields since it's an exclusively 'Cadian' concept which is also echoed on planets that they've settled/mustered out on, they want to be there.

Becoming a member of the Cadian Shock or the Kasrkin is an absurdly high privilege to these guys.

Kanluwen wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Having actually served alongside 18-21 year old conscripts, I have to say that 16 is way too young. Conscription is generally bad, and young adults just want to be young adults.

I'd rather have 5 guys with me who want to be there, than 15 guys who don't.

When you're talking about Cadians, which is the case with Whiteshields since it's an exclusively 'Cadian' concept which is also echoed on planets that they've settled/mustered out on, they want to be there.

Becoming a member of the Cadian Shock or the Kasrkin is an absurdly high privilege to these guys.

I think its funny when people think the Holy Imperium of Man is supposed to be some sort of paragon of humanity. The theme of 40K is that the Holy Imperium is a parody of humanity. It's great they think it's a privilege however a country that is a complete Military Junta with 100% conscription at birth would be considered bad in real life.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Having actually served alongside 18-21 year old conscripts, I have to say that 16 is way too young. Conscription is generally bad, and young adults just want to be young adults.

I'd rather have 5 guys with me who want to be there, than 15 guys who don't.

When you're talking about Cadians, which is the case with Whiteshields since it's an exclusively 'Cadian' concept which is also echoed on planets that they've settled/mustered out on, they want to be there.

Becoming a member of the Cadian Shock or the Kasrkin is an absurdly high privilege to these guys.

I think its funny when people think the Holy Imperium of Man is supposed to be some sort of paragon of humanity. The theme of 40K is that the Holy Imperium is a parody of humanity. It's great they think it's a privilege however a country that is a complete Military Junta with 100% conscription at birth would be considered bad in real life.

I wouldn't necessarily call it a 'parody' of humanity. It's getting there, sure--but with Cadia it's one of the few examples that could really be considered a black and white 'good or evil' example.

Kanluwen wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Having actually served alongside 18-21 year old conscripts, I have to say that 16 is way too young. Conscription is generally bad, and young adults just want to be young adults.

I'd rather have 5 guys with me who want to be there, than 15 guys who don't.

When you're talking about Cadians, which is the case with Whiteshields since it's an exclusively 'Cadian' concept which is also echoed on planets that they've settled/mustered out on, they want to be there.

Becoming a member of the Cadian Shock or the Kasrkin is an absurdly high privilege to these guys.

I think its funny when people think the Holy Imperium of Man is supposed to be some sort of paragon of humanity. The theme of 40K is that the Holy Imperium is a parody of humanity. It's great they think it's a privilege however a country that is a complete Military Junta with 100% conscription at birth would be considered bad in real life.

I wouldn't necessarily call it a 'parody' of humanity. It's getting there, sure--but with Cadia it's one of the few examples that could really be considered a black and white 'good or evil' example.

The Imperium is a combination of all the worst parts of the Imperial Roman Empire, Nazi Germany, The Soviet Union, The Spanish Inquisition and The Byzantine empire. Other than that they're pretty good I guess.

Kanluwen wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Having actually served alongside 18-21 year old conscripts, I have to say that 16 is way too young. Conscription is generally bad, and young adults just want to be young adults.

I'd rather have 5 guys with me who want to be there, than 15 guys who don't.

When you're talking about Cadians, which is the case with Whiteshields since it's an exclusively 'Cadian' concept which is also echoed on planets that they've settled/mustered out on, they want to be there.

Becoming a member of the Cadian Shock or the Kasrkin is an absurdly high privilege to these guys.

Yeah, you'd think so...I mean, if we had a modern example of a country that recruits via conscription, surrounded by neighbors hell-bent on destroying it, you would assume that they want to be there right?

I think a line from Lord of the Rings is adequate:

It needs but one foe to breed a war, not two, Master Warden, and those who have not swords can still die upon them.

And, of course, the Imperium is not without foes which will war with it no matter what the Imperium does.

So to clarify not really talking about an emergencey. If the Tyranids are invading then ya give every man, women and child a lasgun and a flak jacket because you're all going to be eaten anyway. More about: does the Imperial Guard deploy child soldiers as standard practice. Emphasis on Imperial Guard. The IoM has a long standing policy of "We don't give a what you do on your planet as long as you pay your tithe".
I don't think they do. I think their approach to enlistment is pretty similiar to The West. 18 years of age for combat.
However, organizations like the whiteshields are a gray area. Although more of an internal PDF like force if they are being deployed off-world by the Imperial Navy then the IoM is "sortof" using child soldiers. Now, yes the Whiteshields are the actually comparable or even better than other world's IG and are the "best-case scenario" of this dubious practice but if they give tacit approval to these guys it may be a slippery slop to using African-style child soldiers.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Having actually served alongside 18-21 year old conscripts, I have to say that 16 is way too young. Conscription is generally bad, and young adults just want to be young adults.

I suspect (although I don't know which countries armed forces you serve alongside) that the major difference is the vast amount of propaganda the Imperium uses on its populations (not that it's likely to take much actual propaganda - the simple facts would likely cause most people to cling to the Imperium for safety and to preserve their own if for no other reason). Most Guardsmen will likely truly believe in the cause they are fighting for, especially those serving of Cadia. It'd be hard not witness the horrors 40K Milky Way and not seek to exterminate the threats to you and yours.

Yeah, you'd think so...I mean, if we had a modern example of a country that recruits via conscription, surrounded by neighbors hell-bent on destroying it, you would assume that they want to be there right?

Israel? North Korea?

Because let's face it, when your most common enemies are the unending horde of barbarians to whom peace is an uninteresting novelty concept, a lot of humanoid bugs that want to eat you and the planet you stand on, and heretics who want to sacrifice you to summon a beast of flesh and blood with which to destroy everything you know and love or pervert it in their insane orgiastic rituals of death, hedonism, decay, and hideous mutation, it's not hard to feel like having the training to fire a gun without killing yourself as well as being given a free gun and armor (flak armor, for all its infamy, is actually pretty good) is a good investment.

Melissia wrote:Because let's face it, when your most common enemies are the unending horde of barbarians to whom peace is an uninteresting novelty concept, a lot of humanoid bugs that want to eat you and the planet you stand on, and heretics who want to sacrifice you to summon a beast of flesh and blood with which to destroy everything you know and love or pervert it in their insane orgiastic rituals of death, hedonism, decay, and hideous mutation, it's not hard to feel like having the training to fire a gun without killing yourself as well as being given a free gun and armor (flak armor, for all its infamy, is actually pretty good) is a good investment.

Flak armor also makes user practically bulletproof to modern day small arms.

Keep in mind, also, even if kids aren't serving on the front lines, I'm sure that there are kids in the IG camps taking care of logistics: loading ammo into boxes, polishing shoes, running messages, playing music.

Why do you think that Imperium is bad? They are taking necessary risks so that our race can survive. If not for this kind of supervision ( Inquisition, Commissars, Priests etc ) every planet under Human rule would be an empire for itself ( just remember "Battle for planet Terra ).
In 40k, if we want for Humanity to survive we must sacrifice some freedoms and right we have today. Because one man is always enough to start a war, or Armageddon in that matter. And it is my personal motivation to see a 15 year old boy serving an army rather than joining some gangs. And Warhammer 40k is not black and white, it's all in shades of gray. Every race have some noble cause and horrific means to achieve it.

Brother Coa wrote:And Warhammer 40k is not black and white, it's all in shades of black

Fixed.

They're probably much more common in PDF's considering how unsupervised those things are. Otherwise short of emergencies such as Ork/Tyranid invasion I don't see them being used much.

I think child soldiers are one of the topics that are rarely covered though. It would make a good book. I mean, you don't even really hear about Chaos-corrupted children fighting either despite the fact they're probably in great numbers on any Chaos infested world.

As standard practice the Imperial Guard will be looking for the better elements of the PDF to induct. This generally precludes children. However, in regards to the OP, the Imperium DOES use child soldiers. Often without hesitation, and not only as a last resort.
Even if you don't consider the practices of the PDF to matter in regards as to what the Imperium does, the rules for these child soldiers are in the IG codex, which provides examples.


@Kanluwen: There is no legal recognition of a 'teenager' and there probably shouldn't be. You are either an adult or a minor, and minor means child.

EDIT: spelling hurt

Actually EF:

Minor is defined as...

a person under the legal age of full responsibility

That doesn't mean "child". It just means..."under the legal age of full responsibility".

Emperors Faithful wrote:the rules for these child soldiers are in the IG codex, which provides examples.

Pages?

Not that I would be surprised, the IoM isn't a nice organisation afterall.

They're not called "child soldiers", it's just the generic "Conscript Platoon".

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Having actually served alongside 18-21 year old conscripts, I have to say that 16 is way too young. Conscription is generally bad, and young adults just want to be young adults.

I suspect (although I don't know which countries armed forces you serve alongside) that the major difference is the vast amount of propaganda the Imperium uses on its populations (not that it's likely to take much actual propaganda - the simple facts would likely cause most people to cling to the Imperium for safety and to preserve their own if for no other reason). Most Guardsmen will likely truly believe in the cause they are fighting for, especially those serving of Cadia. It'd be hard not witness the horrors 40K Milky Way and not seek to exterminate the threats to you and yours.

Yeah, you'd think so...I mean, if we had a modern example of a country that recruits via conscription, surrounded by neighbors hell-bent on destroying it, you would assume that they want to be there right?

Israel? North Korea?

LOL North Korea bro? No...

Israel is surprisingly devoid of propaganda. You don't really need much propaganda when about 70% of men and over 50% of women are conscripted into the military at age 18. It's not like they struggled to meet recruiting quotas.

Idealogically they were fine, but 18 year olds want to do 18 year old things. They do the minimum required of them. "Rosh katan" (small head) is the slang for it...basically means that whether or not you know what you SHOULD be doing, you do what you're TOLD to do. A military like that survives on the virtues of its officers. Which, I guess, is sort of reflected in the IG Codex. Heavy Weapon Teams suck without Bring It Down orders.

To play to the choir, I guess in the 41st Milliennium, "there is only war", so lacking Facebook and discos, I guess most 18 year olds would be interested in serving...

Brother Coa wrote:Why do you think that Imperium is bad? They are taking necessary risks so that our race can survive. If not for this kind of supervision ( Inquisition, Commissars, Priests etc ) every planet under Human rule would be an empire for itself ( just remember "Battle for planet Terra ).
In 40k, if we want for Humanity to survive we must sacrifice some freedoms and right we have today. Because one man is always enough to start a war, or Armageddon in that matter. And it is my personal motivation to see a 15 year old boy serving an army rather than joining some gangs. And Warhammer 40k is not black and white, it's all in shades of gray. Every race have some noble cause and horrific means to achieve it.

The catch is in the larger fluff it ISN'T that Dystopian, sure some worlds are without doubt. But most of 40k's grimdark comes from enemies external and internal to the Imperium, not from any poor quality of life. Abnett has actually made it quite clear over all the books he's done that the average Imperial Citizen's life is not that much better or worse than anyone's today.

Kanluwen wrote:Actually EF:

Minor is defined as...

a person under the legal age of full responsibility

That doesn't mean "child". It just means..."under the legal age of full responsibility".

So when does childhood end, other than the point that they attain full legal responsibility? When they can consent, when they are criminally responsible? Remember, the notion of teenage-hood is a recent concept in our society.

Medium of Death wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:the rules for these child soldiers are in the IG codex, which provides examples.

Pages?

Not that I would be surprised, the IoM isn't a nice organisation afterall.

It's in the same passage as conscripts. Though Kanluwen is right, they don't actually use the word child there. However, the source does state that 'Probitors' as they are called view their eventual promotion to a proper guardsman as a 'rite of manhood' rather than a simple promotion. So obviously they are not yet adults, though if you follow Kanluwen's arguement that doesn't necessarily mean they are children either.

IvanTih wrote: Abnett has actually made it quite clear over all the books he's done that the average Imperial Citizen's life is not that much better or worse than anyone's today.

I'd hazzard a guess that you haven't actually read Dan Abnett then. Or that you are using a standard for 'everyone' that is not comparable to a developed country.

Found this a few weeks ago online.
Just figured I'd share.

Isn't Creed several centuries old by now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And that diagram is wrong. The Cadians found him smoking cigars.

Cadians should not be included in this. Military is their way of life, it's normal on Cadia that 10 year old boy have his own Lasgun. If we are talking about the Imperum as a whole, than most worlds would be like Meridian or Calderis. And I didn't see any children there fighting in the Guard.

But I live Cadian bravado: "Any Cadian who can't field-strip his own lasgun by age ten was born on the wrong planet."

Cadia is very relevant to this discussion as we are talking about the Imperium. It is also not the only garrison world in the Imperium (but is by far the most famous).

Emperors Faithful wrote:I'd hazzard a guess that you haven't actually read Dan Abnett then. Or that you are using a standard for 'everyone' that is not comparable to a developed country.

I am actually reffering that most worlds aren't shi*holes like some people think.You know they become it when the enemies attack,but for the most time they're just living their normal lives which aren't full of oppression(on most civilized worlds).

You would be surprised how much Imperial citizens actually don't just eat work and sleep... One of the best books for finding out what civilian life is the Eisenhorn novels.

For the most part the citizens are aware of the many wars and conflicts going on but it seemed that for the most part their lives were more like those civilians in Star Wars planets. Their lives are determined by the world and it's local government/ climate/ location (I.e. worlds close to the galactic rim are more risky and rough to live on.

One of the worlds in the book had a very Naboo feeling to it (Gudrun). A lot of the civilians on that world had hobbies and had an economy similar to modern times with entrepreneurs and upper/middle/lower classes

Nemesis also supports the notion that citizens live a similar life as modern day people.

EDIT:And Ravenor.

Now present canon evidence.

IvanTih wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:I'd hazzard a guess that you haven't actually read Dan Abnett then. Or that you are using a standard for 'everyone' that is not comparable to a developed country.

I am actually reffering that most worlds aren't shi*holes like some people think.You know they become it when the enemies attack,but for the most time they're just living their normal lives which aren't full of oppression(on most civilized worlds).

You would be surprised how much Imperial citizens actually don't just eat work and sleep... One of the best books for finding out what civilian life is the Eisenhorn novels.

For the most part the citizens are aware of the many wars and conflicts going on but it seemed that for the most part their lives were more like those civilians in Star Wars planets. Their lives are determined by the world and it's local government/ climate/ location (I.e. worlds close to the galactic rim are more risky and rough to live on.

One of the worlds in the book had a very Naboo feeling to it (Gudrun). A lot of the civilians on that world had hobbies and had an economy similar to modern times with entrepreneurs and upper/middle/lower classes

Nemesis also supports the notion that citizens live a similar life as modern day people.

EDIT:And Ravenor.

Now present canon evidence.

Basically yes. Most worlds are "civilized" worlds where people live in houses or apartments and go to work. That's why in general a desperate measure like use of child soldiers is not needed or excusable for the Imperium at large.

Owain wrote:The Whiteshields would certainly explain why all Cadians are such natural soldiers; it's been drummed into them since they passed puberty. Let's not forget that conscripts under 18 were taken during the Middle Ages and that desperate times call for desperate measures.

Children are cute when they get shot.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
LOL North Korea bro? No...

It has a significant amount of propaganda (apparently) and there must a significant amount of loyalty otherwise the regime would exist.

Israel is surprisingly devoid of propaganda. You don't really need much propaganda when about 70% of men and over 50% of women are conscripted into the military at age 18. It's not like they struggled to meet recruiting quotas.

From what I've seen and heard they seem very anti-Palestinian. Or at least their government is.

Idealogically they were fine, but 18 year olds want to do 18 year old things. They do the minimum required of them. "Rosh katan" (small head) is the slang for it...basically means that whether or not you know what you SHOULD be doing, you do what you're TOLD to do. A military like that survives on the virtues of its officers. Which, I guess, is sort of reflected in the IG Codex. Heavy Weapon Teams suck without Bring It Down orders.

Consider the situations the Imperial Guard often finds itself in, I suspect its members, in a battlezone, will do whatever it can within its purview to survive, not just doing what's been ordered.

To play to the choir, I guess in the 41st Milliennium, "there is only war", so lacking Facebook and discos, I guess most 18 year olds would be interested in serving...

Most worlds are apparently not that bad. Despite that the mount of propaganda would likely inspire large numbers of people to serve.

bonerjamz wrote:Guardsman Gary: "Sir! The enemy is advancing for an all-out assault!"
Commander Carl: "Send in... THE KINDERGUARD!"

I lol'd. Welcome to Dakka, and please stay.

IvanTih wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:I'd hazzard a guess that you haven't actually read Dan Abnett then. Or that you are using a standard for 'everyone' that is not comparable to a developed country.

I am actually reffering that most worlds aren't shi*holes like some people think.You know they become it when the enemies attack,but for the most time they're just living their normal lives which aren't full of oppression(on most civilized worlds).

You would be surprised how much Imperial citizens actually don't just eat work and sleep... One of the best books for finding out what civilian life is the Eisenhorn novels.

For the most part the citizens are aware of the many wars and conflicts going on but it seemed that for the most part their lives were more like those civilians in Star Wars planets. Their lives are determined by the world and it's local government/ climate/ location (I.e. worlds close to the galactic rim are more risky and rough to live on.

One of the worlds in the book had a very Naboo feeling to it (Gudrun). A lot of the civilians on that world had hobbies and had an economy similar to modern times with entrepreneurs and upper/middle/lower classes

Nemesis also supports the notion that citizens live a similar life as modern day people.

EDIT:And Ravenor.

Now present canon evidence.

Amazingly, I'd quote those exact same sources back at you. The average life of an Imperial Citizen does not measure up to the livelihood of you and me (the 6% of the people in the world who have internet access). Ravenor was descriptive in his first book regarding the life of the young psyker and precisely how gakky it was (very). Additionally gladiatorial arenas and similar entertainment venues put the life of an Imperial citizen more akin to that of a medieval attitude (given the attitudes to pain and hardship).
Gudrun, (the planet that they were tracking the flecks on?) was by no means a Naboo-esque paradise. I don't even know where you are going with this example.

In Gaunts Ghosts the difficulty of life in Vervunhive is apparent, even before the siege begins. It's not comparable to a nightmarish Manufactorium world, but it doesn't measure up to the relative luxury we experience today.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:I'd hazzard a guess that you haven't actually read Dan Abnett then. Or that you are using a standard for 'everyone' that is not comparable to a developed country.

I am actually reffering that most worlds aren't shi*holes like some people think.You know they become it when the enemies attack,but for the most time they're just living their normal lives which aren't full of oppression(on most civilized worlds).

You would be surprised how much Imperial citizens actually don't just eat work and sleep... One of the best books for finding out what civilian life is the Eisenhorn novels.

For the most part the citizens are aware of the many wars and conflicts going on but it seemed that for the most part their lives were more like those civilians in Star Wars planets. Their lives are determined by the world and it's local government/ climate/ location (I.e. worlds close to the galactic rim are more risky and rough to live on.

One of the worlds in the book had a very Naboo feeling to it (Gudrun). A lot of the civilians on that world had hobbies and had an economy similar to modern times with entrepreneurs and upper/middle/lower classes

Nemesis also supports the notion that citizens live a similar life as modern day people.

EDIT:And Ravenor.

Now present canon evidence.

Amazingly, I'd quote those exact same sources back at you. The average life of an Imperial Citizen does not measure up to the livelihood of you and me (the 6% of the people in the world who have internet access). Ravenor was descriptive in his first book regarding the life of the young psyker and precisely how gakky it was (very). Additionally gladiatorial arenas and similar entertainment venues put the life of an Imperial citizen more akin to that of a medieval attitude (given the attitudes to pain and hardship).
Gudrun, (the planet that they were tracking the flecks on?) was by no means a Naboo-esque paradise. I don't even know where you are going with this example.

In Gaunts Ghosts the difficulty of life in Vervunhive is apparent, even before the siege begins. It's not comparable to a nightmarish Manufactorium world, but it doesn't measure up to the relative luxury we experience today.

Would it not depend on the world? agricultural worlds would probably be very nice, however most of the population is probably in hives which are not so good. Ill bet children wouldn't want to leave their ag world and hive cities probably have thousand wishing they could go.

mattyrm wrote:

chyron wrote:Actually there's one clarification needed - what is child-soldier?
As current western legal (and draft/recruitment) age of 18 is also contradictory - for ex. 19 y.o. US soldier have full right to die in Afghanistan but not to buy strong alcohol at home.

I dont the West is contradictory, just the USA.

I mean, is there any other first world nation that barrs a fighting man from having a pint?! Certainly not here in Blighty..

Frankly i think its a disgrace!

completely off topic....In Australia, you can join that army at 16 with parents permission. You probably won't get accepted, but you can apply to join. You just can't get deployed overseas until you're 18. I mention this because we have the same laws about this as you whose ancestors never got caught... but I do find it a bit hypocritical that you can join up at 16, cant drink vote or smoke until 18, and for unemployment and study benefits you're not considered to be an adult (by way of saying that you're still dependent on your parents) until you're 25.

we do have stories of guys lying about their age to join up in the world wars, but I imagine every nation that participated does.

Back on topic, the IoM wouldn't use child soldiers. They'd take children and put them into the Schola Progenium pretty much as soon as they're born, but they wouldnt send them into combat until they've developed enough muscle and stamina to fight effectively.

As for the African parallels being drawn here... terrible things happen to those children before they're able to fight. They have to be de-humanised first, and usually hooked on some form of drug. I don't think that the IoM, callous though it is, is capable of cruelty on that big a scale to raise a full regiment of child soldiers.

From all the fluff I've read, and the codex, the only references to any youngins in the fight are the Cadian Whiteshields, specific to Cadia.... and if your planet was constantly under seige, wouldn't you want to fight if you were a kid? I reckon its more like Army Cadets. The conscripts in the codex are that, conscripts. Farmers, factory workers, miners, shopkeepers, all given a lasgun and told which way to point it - and not much else. Those statistics of 4/5ths of the population... probably only mean the population able to fight. So that statistic would apply to anyone above 18 that can stand up, see lightning, hear thunder, and hold a rifle (not necessarily all at the same time), not the entire population.

I think that in Briton they let you join the army at 16 but im not sure!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
If im corrrect then it can happen

To parahrase some guy in some Vietnam movie "They don't draft you when you're 18 because you're strongest here (points at bicep) they do it because that's when you're the weakest here (points at head)"

xXSir MontyXx wrote:Would it not depend on the world? agricultural worlds would probably be very nice, however most of the population is probably in hives which are not so good. Ill bet children wouldn't want to leave their ag world and hive cities probably have thousand wishing they could go.

The book 15 Hours, also in the Imperial Guard Omnibus, is a prime example. Generally it didn't appear too different from any farmland living area.

papathrax wrote:Back on topic, the IoM wouldn't use child soldiers. They'd take children and put them into the Schola Progenium pretty much as soon as they're born, but they wouldnt send them into combat until they've developed enough muscle and stamina to fight effectively.

Only the sons/daughters of Imperial Officials (not your run of the mill guardsman or factory worker) are admitted into the Schola Progenium. It's by no means a galaxy-wide orphanage for the poor and needy.

As for the African parallels being drawn here... terrible things happen to those children before they're able to fight. They have to be de-humanised first, and usually hooked on some form of drug. I don't think that the IoM, callous though it is, is capable of cruelty on that big a scale to raise a full regiment of child soldiers.

There was an example of this in Henry Zhou's Flesh and Iron, though that appeared to be only the rebels.

From all the fluff I've read, and the codex, the only references to any youngins in the fight are the Cadian Whiteshields, specific to Cadia.... and if your planet was constantly under seige, wouldn't you want to fight if you were a kid? I reckon its more like Army Cadets. The conscripts in the codex are that, conscripts. Farmers, factory workers, miners, shopkeepers, all given a lasgun and told which way to point it - and not much else. Those statistics of 4/5ths of the population... probably only mean the population able to fight. So that statistic would apply to anyone above 18 that can stand up, see lightning, hear thunder, and hold a rifle (not necessarily all at the same time), not the entire population.

Whiteshields are specific to Cadia, Probitors is the term used elsewhere.

All politics and ethics aside, in Dead Men Walking, a 17 year old is considered a hardened Death Korps veteran, with the majority of them selected for service at around fourteen or so. Of course, that's after years of trench warfare on Krieg itself...

Jakka wrote:All politics and ethics aside, in Dead Men Walking, a 17 year old is considered a hardened Death Korps veteran, with the majority of them selected for service at around fourteen or so. Of course, that's after years of trench warfare on Krieg itself...

\

Trench warfare with who?

From what I gathered, it's with eachother, as a training, assessment, and selection process.

Jakka wrote:From what I gathered, it's with eachother, as a training, assessment, and selection process.

If this is true they should be using non-lethal ammo

Or else they would never meet their self set tithe of soldiers for the imperium.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Jakka wrote:From what I gathered, it's with eachother, as a training, assessment, and selection process.

If this is true they should be using non-lethal ammo

Or else they would never meet their self set tithe of soldiers for the imperium.

They produce excess recruits with their cloning/artificial womb tech. I assume they don't need to make the training non-lethal, and ensuring that it's actual combat means the survivors would be veterans by the time they're shipped off to the Guard.

Here's a really stupid question:

What does "10 years old" even mean? Is that standard terran years? Local years?

There is no one definition of "child." Many psycholgists now put the end of emotional adolescence at ~25 for males, while the age of puberty is actualy dropping.

So, on the one hand, it seems that all militaries make their ranks out of people that haven't fully mentally matured, even modern ones. On the other, it's ridiculous to think tha the IoM would be interested in soldiers that were physically underdeveloped.

Owain wrote:The Whiteshields would certainly explain why all Cadians are such natural soldiers; it's been drummed into them since they passed puberty. Let's not forget that conscripts under 18 were taken during the Middle Ages and that desperate times call for desperate measures.

Cadians learn how to strip and clean a lasgun before they can walk properly

Jakka wrote:All politics and ethics aside, in Dead Men Walking, a 17 year old is considered a hardened Death Korps veteran, with the majority of them selected for service at around fourteen or so. Of course, that's after years of trench warfare on Krieg itself...

Well then add Krieg to the list of planets that use child-soldiers. I would figure so because they are super grimdark.


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Polonius wrote:Here's a really stupid question:

What does "10 years old" even mean? Is that standard terran years? Local years?

There is no one definition of "child." Many psycholgists now put the end of emotional adolescence at ~25 for males, while the age of puberty is actualy dropping.

So, on the one hand, it seems that all militaries make their ranks out of people that haven't fully mentally matured, even modern ones. On the other, it's ridiculous to think tha the IoM would be interested in soldiers that were physically underdeveloped.

Everything in 40K is done in Terran standard time.
It's not ridiculus, the evidence is mounting that the IoM does indeed use them.

I think it's a bit sweeping to say that everything is done in standard time, but it's probably safe to say that most references to time are Terran years.

I should have spoken more specifically: the Munitorium is probably not horribly pleased with pre-adolescent soldiers. local PDFs no doubt use who they can, but that's literally life or death.

Calling a 15 year old cadian a "child soldier" might be literally true, but so different from how our current culture operates as to strip the term of most negative connotations.

I mean, World War One alone say many, many 16 & 17 year olds fighting. As recently as the civil war children as young as 10 could legally enlist as drummers.

Firstborn sons of Vostroya are automatically conscripted into the guard. I don't know if there is an actual concription date or if the induction is considered to be enacted since birth.

Polonius wrote:I mean, World War One alone say many, many 16 & 17 year olds fighting.

Most of which either bluffed their age or the officials turned a blind eye to it. Neither were officially condoned really (though there was a case that found a soldier who was under the legal age to serve but ran away in battle was still eligible for execution, in this case it was a 16 year old who was shot).

As recently as the civil war children as young as 10 could legally enlist as drummers.

Not a combat role in the sense that child soldiers today are looked at. But you are right in the sense that there wasn't such a sanctity around childhood that there is today.

Emperors Children

I have it on best knowledge that Marine Legions loyal to the Emperor do take childeren as young as 2-3 yrs old. On their quests every 5-10 yrs to find new marines to fill there ranks. Its a fact from first edition in White Dwarf magazine, its a story as well found in the Rouge Trader book.

LordWynne wrote:I have it on best knowledge that Marine Legions loyal to the Emperor do take children as young as 2-3 yrs old. On their quests every 5-10 yrs to find new marines to fill there ranks. Its a fact from first edition in White Dwarf magazine, its a story as well found in the Rogue Trader book.

No, you don't. Because they don't do that.

And we're not talking about the Marines, we're talking about the Imperial Guard.

Weren't Marines marauding pirates in first edition? Or just in early Rogue Trader?

Yeah, I have to agree that the Imperium has enough manpower to be pretty picky with its recruitment, so I could only see child soldiers of 12-15 happening in a really desperate situation.

Kanluwen wrote:

LordWynne wrote:I have it on best knowledge that Marine Legions loyal to the Emperor do take children as young as 2-3 yrs old. On their quests every 5-10 yrs to find new marines to fill there ranks. Its a fact from first edition in White Dwarf magazine, its a story as well found in the Rogue Trader book.

No, you don't. Because they don't do that.

And we're not talking about the Marines, we're talking about the Imperial Guard.

Yes, we're talking about guard. But the Red Scorpions take babies.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Empire didn't use child labor... maybe that's what those little 'cheruby' things are that float around like servants in some art, but seriously...

In our own universe child labor laws are a recent phenomenon in western societies. Children have almost always been viewed as chatle. In many areas of the world they still are. One only has to watch the news for about 10 minutes to come across an image of a child armed with an AK. Having served in the military outside of the US I've personally seen 'soldiers' as young as 9 or 10. A child armed with an automatic weapon is a very dangerous and psychologically disruptive opponent as you might imagine.

So, considering the darkness of the 40k universe I think child labor/soldiers would be one of the least sins committed by society.

Brother Coa wrote:Cadians should not be included in this.

Why not? Cadia is not entirely a unique planet as far as its military mindset (even if its situation at the opening of the Eye of Terror is unique).

They're also the standard by which all other IG are measured.

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Cadians should not be included in this.

Why not? Cadia is not entirely a unique planet as far as its military mindset (even if its situation at the opening of the Eye of Terror is unique).

Well because Cadia is unique, at least according to my opinion. They are razed and live everyday of their lives by military standards. And it's common for Cadian child to go millitary with it's 13-15 years. But that's Cadia, across million of Imperial world children are going into army usually at it's 18 or even earlier if they want to. And on some worlds children are never go to army. My point is that when looking this question, people think "oh Cadia, so the answer is yes" without thinking about hundreds upon thousands other Imperial worlds. Because when it comes to the Imperium we cannot see just Cadia, we must look at other worlds.


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KamikazeCanuck wrote:They're also the standard by which all other IG are measured.

Yes, but every planet has it's customs however. And it's not custom to every planet to send it's children into millitary. And what about Vostrya? Each family send it's firstborn son into army, but do they do that in early age of child or later?

What would be the worst Imperial Organization to entrust with chitlins?

IMHO chitlins are worse off in the custody Ecclesiarchy or Adeptus Mechanicus than the Imperial Guard.

Kanluwen wrote:

LordWynne wrote:I have it on best knowledge that Marine Legions loyal to the Emperor do take children as young as 2-3 yrs old. On their quests every 5-10 yrs to find new marines to fill there ranks. Its a fact from first edition in White Dwarf magazine, its a story as well found in the Rogue Trader book.

No, you don't. Because they don't do that.

And we're not talking about the Marines, we're talking about the Imperial Guard.

Actually, we're talking about the Imperium.

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Cadians should not be included in this.

Why not? Cadia is not entirely a unique planet as far as its military mindset (even if its situation at the opening of the Eye of Terror is unique).

Well because Cadia is unique, at least according to my opinion. They are razed and live everyday of their lives by military standards. And it's common for Cadian child to go millitary with it's 13-15 years. But that's Cadia, across million of Imperial world children are going into army usually at it's 18 or even earlier if they want to. And on some worlds children are never go to army. My point is that when looking this question, people think "oh Cadia, so the answer is yes" without thinking about hundreds upon thousands other Imperial worlds. Because when it comes to the Imperium we cannot see just Cadia, we must look at other worlds.


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KamikazeCanuck wrote:They're also the standard by which all other IG are measured.

Yes, but every planet has it's customs however. And it's not custom to every planet to send it's children into millitary. And what about Vostrya? Each family send it's firstborn son into army, but do they do that in early age of child or later?

Cadia's uniqueness is not in question, however the threads title is "does the Imperium use child soldier's?". There is no picking and choosing imo. Also to answer your second statement, the planets do have their own customs yes. Though im sure the Imperium sets their minimum tithe. So I would think the planet must do whatever it can to reach that minimum. If that is sending lower aged teens into combat down to even children im sure the imperium wont send them back and is prepared to handle a younger crowd when it comes to training. The state of the planet may also affect it's tithe amount, what if the planet has to many people for instance? Lower the age that is sent to the guard, it looks good on their part to the Imperium and they free up some room.

There are also planets that have no problem meeting their tithe's. They may even raise the age of recruitment, this keeps workers on the planet and various other pro's for having your citizens at home.

Well, given the nature of the IoM, I'm pretty sure you can find pretty much anything you'd like somewhere in it. So, a question asking "Does the IoM use giant flying hedghogs" has a non-zero chance of being answered in the affirmative.

Assuming the Ministratum (essentially the overarching government) and the planets have a similar federalist/feudal arrangement that the US had in and before the civil war, and most Medieval states used, than the IoM would specify numbers and (maybe) arms. Everything else is up to the planets to provide. So if a planet wants to send only female warriors, or cloned mute soldiers, or even only the faculty of every liberal arts college, the IoM doesn't care.

I'm pretty sure the commissars that get attached to the 1st Liberal Arts College Regiment would care.

papathrax wrote:I'm pretty sure the commissars that get attached to the 1st Liberal Arts College Regiment would care.

Lol. I'd imagine they'd be pretty bummed out. But they're not going to send 'em back and hope for better soldiers, either.

Be the only regiment to run out of ammo before coming into contact with the enemy.

Well there must be some sort of minimum standard set by the Munitorium that must be met.
I can't imagine a world that does not take its IG tithe seriously going over well with the Munitorium, Administratum or Inquisition.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Well there must be some sort of minimum standard set by the Munitorium that must be met.
I can't imagine a world that does not take its IG tithe seriously going over well with the Munitorium, Administratum or Inquisition.

I doubt age, by itself, is part of that. If you can fight, they'll take you.

Look at feralworld regiment; due to the roughness of a deathworld, most recruits are probably in their mid-teens anyway. also, I'm assuming that their is no universal recruitment age; the Imperium is heterogenous to the extreme, and I don't think anyone in the Munitorium is concerned about 14 year old soldiers, so long as they don't get in the way. I jsut imagine the Ecclesiarchy response being "It's never to early to die for the Emperor."

also, in response to whether or not a 15 year old Cadian is a child soldier, I wouldn't think so. there is a quote (I think in the 5th edition Guard Codex) that says "Any Cadian that couldn't fieldstrip his weapon by age 10 was born on the wrong planet"; I assume that means that by 15 they'd be consdiered more than adults in the combat sense.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Well there must be some sort of minimum standard set by the Munitorium that must be met.
I can't imagine a world that does not take its IG tithe seriously going over well with the Munitorium, Administratum or Inquisition.

The Guard codex says the governor's life is forfeit if the tithe isn't of satisfactory quality, but then there's a lot of inconsistency with what the codex itself says about the Guard, to say nothing of what happens when you start looking at fluff in general...

The guard are the cream of the pdf crop, so those 10 year olds better be the strongest warriors on the planet or the next time the guard comes around it won't be as nice.

whiteshields, or underage cadians are planetary defense aren't they? Not part of the guard.

I'm truely amazed that people dont think the inperium use child soldiers!! hell you can join the british army at 16!! they just dont like you going into a combat zone untill you'r 18. 17year olds served in combat zones with the british army in the falklands and the first gulf war. So in the grimdark i thing it's safe to assume that 14-16year olds are regularly conscripted.

Cheers.

bollogs

MikeV37 wrote:

whiteshields, or underage cadians are planetary defense aren't they? Not part of the guard.

Correct. But if the Imperial Navy ships them off world then things get murkier.


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bollogs wrote:I'm truely amazed that people dont think the inperium use child soldiers!! hell you can join the british army at 16!! they just dont like you going into a combat zone untill you'r 18. 17year olds served in combat zones with the british army in the falklands and the first gulf war. So in the grimdark i thing it's safe to assume that 14-16year olds are regularly conscripted.

Cheers.

bollogs

17 year olds served in a combat role in the falklands?!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
17 year olds served in a combat role in the falklands?!

Yes. As an example; http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/chester-news/featured-stories/2010/01/07/news-falklands-war-hero-from-blacon-angry-that-he-won-t-recieve-pension-for-fighting-for-his-country-aged-17-59067-25548579/

Yeah, in this country you can fight (and die) for your country and pay taxes at 17, but you can't vote or buy alcohol. At 16 you can join with parental permission, but I don't think you can serve abroad until you're 17.

I believe Canada has the same rules but I don't know if a 17 year old has served in combat in modern times or not.

Polonius wrote:

papathrax wrote:I'm pretty sure the commissars that get attached to the 1st Liberal Arts College Regiment would care.

Lol. I'd imagine they'd be pretty bummed out. But they're not going to send 'em back and hope for better soldiers, either.

Nice.

MikeV37 wrote:The guard are the cream of the pdf crop, so those 10 year olds better be the strongest warriors on the planet or the next time the guard comes around it won't be as nice.

In the cases we saw in the Caipas Cain novels? Yes, that was the standard procedure. The selection of the guard is by no means universal though, and remember we aren't just talking about whole regiments of children, we're talking about children being part of those regiments (which is entirely possible, and in fact more than likely).

Think Necromunda,.....Ultra Marines wandering the underhive collecting childeren ages 1-5 for recruiting. Those that survive the trials gain the honor of becoming Space Marine Scouts.

Thats what I remember from an old White Dwarf mag, its true the Empire are slavers and do horriable things. And yet Chaos gets the bad rap.

LordWynne wrote:Think Necromunda,.....Ultra Marines wandering the underhive collecting childeren ages 1-5 for recruiting. Those that survive the trials gain the honor of becoming Space Marine Scouts.

Thats what I remember from an old White Dwarf mag, its true the Empire are slavers and do horriable things. And yet Chaos gets the bad rap.

Except Chaos would be rounding them up for daemonfood...


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Emperors Faithful wrote:

MikeV37 wrote:The guard are the cream of the pdf crop, so those 10 year olds better be the strongest warriors on the planet or the next time the guard comes around it won't be as nice.

In the cases we saw in the Caipas Cain novels? Yes, that was the standard procedure. The selection of the guard is by no means universal though, and remember we aren't just talking about whole regiments of children, we're talking about children being part of those regiments (which is entirely possible, and in fact more than likely).

The Guard codex states that a planets tithe consists of the top 10% of its PDF. Of course, it also says the tithes are annual, but later says they're only occasional, and mentions tribes warring over who gets to join the Guard on feral worlds, so make of it what you will. Necropolis has Vervunhive conspiring to send only the dregs and criminals for the tithe, while keeping the best for its private army, and Scourge the Heretic has the old "sweeping the jails" recruitment method...

Heh heh. Now I have an image of my head of a 10 year old in an oversized Commissar's uniform, wielding a bolt pistol.

"For da Empo-wah, you misawaba dowgs!"

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I believe Canada has the same rules but I don't know if a 17 year old has served in combat in modern times or not.

The age of enlistment in the US is 17 (You have to be done with High School and have your parents permission at that age though). We probably have 17 year olds in Iraq, Afghanistan, and our Overseas Bases in other countries.
In WWII and (albeit rarely) in Vietnam kids were able to sneak in at 16. Obviously though at 17 you're probably pretty close to 18. Even in you were to enlist just as you turned 17 because of Basic Training(about 8-13 weeks depending on the service) and then AIT or a C-School or whatever which can vary in length depending what MOS/Rate/AFSC you're going for. Although you can do Basic training during the summer between your junior year and senior year of HS, and go active duty when you graduate.

Juves in Necromunda, although not soldiers are still very young combatants and if Hive primus was invaded they would probably form part of a meat shield for the defence forces. When you look at some of the models they look like very young teens somewhere between 13-14.

LordWynne wrote:Think Necromunda,.....Ultra Marines wandering the underhive collecting childeren ages 1-5 for recruiting. Those that survive the trials gain the honor of becoming Space Marine Scouts.

Thats what I remember from an old White Dwarf mag, its true the Empire are slavers and do horriable things. And yet Chaos gets the bad rap.

Ironically this would probably extend their life span considerably compaired to staying in the Hive.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

MikeV37 wrote:The guard are the cream of the pdf crop, so those 10 year olds better be the strongest warriors on the planet or the next time the guard comes around it won't be as nice.

In the cases we saw in the Caipas Cain novels? Yes, that was the standard procedure. The selection of the guard is by no means universal though, and remember we aren't just talking about whole regiments of children, we're talking about children being part of those regiments (which is entirely possible, and in fact more than likely).

The Guard codex states that a planets tithe consists of the top 10% of its PDF. Of course, it also says the tithes are annual, but later says they're only occasional, and mentions tribes warring over who gets to join the Guard on feral worlds, so make of it what you will. Necropolis has Vervunhive conspiring to send only the dregs and criminals for the tithe, while keeping the best for its private army, and Scourge the Heretic has the old "sweeping the jails" recruitment method...

All of which shows that there is no real standard IG recruitment method, thus making the inclusion of child-soldiers (somewhere) even more likely.