...b/c thats what everyone seems to be saying.

Best infantry shooty weapon in the game. (especially when you add psybolts) Check.
Best Close Combat Weapon in the game. (WITH the added bonus of Daemonbane) Check.
Marine Stats. Check.
ATSKNF. Check.


Hmmmm.....


10xMarine w/Melta, Multi-Melta, Powerfist SGT w/combi-Melta, Rhino w/EA (its not fortitude but, hey.)
270pts

10xGrey Knight w/2xPsycannon, Psybolts, Rhino
275pts

Hmmmmm....

How again do Strike Squads suck?

"Purifiers are better and not much more expensive." (40-70 or so more points depending on loadout than the above unit)

That's true but you have to waste an HQ slot and 150pts for a less than stellar character. An extra attack with one of the games best weapons. Wow, they're better, REALLY? Amazing discovery that.

...........................................................

The fact is that Strike Squads indeed do NOT suck. You've got 10 basic marines in a full squad, each one armed with a force weapon with Str 4 or 5 CC attacks. Also, armed with storm bolters at Str 4 or 5. Psycannons as a special weapon and its obvious how devestating THOSE can be...well worth 10pts apeice.

How does this unit "Suck"? One could easily make an army based off of these guys...and a good one too. Maybe purifiers are better, maybe Jokaero will break the game. (they're essentially Guard heavy weapon teams, and we all know how broken those are right? )

"They cannot fight a whole genestealer brood in CC." -duh.
"They don't have Meltaguns." -yea so?
"They've only got one attack apeice." -Obvious much?

These are not reasons that a unit would suck. They're obvious observations. None of which make a unit suck. Especially a unit that is based and is comparable point cost to your basic marine.

I dunno, just an observation.

Who's been saying they suck? All I hear is how the new GK codex is way too OP.

I think a PAGK based army will be the most competitive GK army (not thinking about henchmen here).

The one attack per model does suck, on marines. Which is why tactical squads suck in CC. Arm all those guys with force weapons... and you start to look scary. The base cost of 20 pts for a Force weapon, storm bolter armed marine compared to the 15-16 points for the basic bolter marine with a normal CC weapon.

Then you get into fact that GK strike squads have hammerhand, which is going to be used more than the FW power honestly, and have access to warp quake, which is a nice bonus. The cheap per model upgrade of +1 to bolter strength is amazing as well. Psycannons are amazingly flexible, they either are auto cannons with half range and assault rules and rending, or +1 strength assault cannons. You get 2 if you want them, in combat squadable units. They also get pykeout grenades for fun.

Regular marines get free special and heavy weapons, but only if you buy all 10.

Regular rhinos cost less, but only have repair

GK rhinos get all of what the regular rhino gets, but also gets fortitude, and only costs 5 points more base. It can also take an upgrade that lets a librarian teleport it...

yeah, I personally think that GK strike squads are just fine, in fact they are so much better than the old books version, they actually could have justified the old price (which is 150 for the first 5, 25 for each additional).

Best infantry shooty weapon in the game. (especially when you add psybolts) Check.

24" range is bad. It's very bad. Everyone outshoots them because of that range. GK (lists with actual GKs) can't force anyone to come to them because they don't have the necessary firepower and if they advance full speed they skip one shooting phase altogether. Sure you can hide them inside a Razorback all game long but then you'd just want more Razorbacks and cheaper Marines with meltaguns in there, not force weapon guys with a psycannon doing nothing. The only use of Strike Squads that I can see is Warp Quake, but 110 points for that is a bit much still when you can get 3 henchmen with special weapons for 30+ points.

Best Close Combat Weapon in the game. (WITH the added bonus of Daemonbane) Check.

Daemonbane is a gimmick. You'll probably get something out of it once every 20 games. Force weapons are cool, but you're purposefully forgetting the fact they can't activate the force weapons the same turn they use hammerhand, and that they have only one measly attack, and they're the ones who will be charged, not the other way around. What are power weapons for anyway? Fighting one very specific type of Blood Angels? People are saying GK are great because they have so many special abilities. Well, 98% of those abilities are either completely useless or useful in very rare circumstances. Would be cool if there was an option to 'not take' something and get a discount for it.

Marine Stats. Check.
ATSKNF. Check. How again do Strike Squads suck?

Awesomesauce. Regular Marines in general suck. We're playing a mech game. What you want are guys with BS4 and multiple special weapons and minimum stats and armour saves and points cost in every other category. What GK do well is run unshakeable and unstunnable vehicles. Now if we could only field a legal army from the dedicated transports category and we wouldn't need anything else.

24" range is bad. It's very bad. Everyone outshoots them because of that range. GK (lists with actual GKs) can't force anyone to come to them because they don't have the necessary firepower and if they advance full speed they skip one shooting phase altogether. Sure you can hide them inside a Razorback all game long but then you'd just want more Razorbacks and cheaper Marines with meltaguns in there, not force weapon guys with a psycannon doing nothing. The only use of Strike Squads that I can see is Warp Quake, but 110 points for that is a bit much still when you can get 3 henchmen with special weapons for 30+ points.

Grey Knights rule the 12" to 24" zone. Decent HtH spread throughout the codex says they dont have to worry about sitting back and shooting, they can do it from mid-feild w/o fear.

Daemonbane is a gimmick. You'll probably get something out of it once every 20 games. Force weapons are cool, but you're purposefully forgetting the fact they can't activate the force weapons the same turn they use hammerhand, and that they have only one measly attack, and they're the ones who will be charged, not the other way around. What are power weapons for anyway? Fighting one very specific type of Blood Angels?

One character in joined to the unit activates hammerhand that effects the unit?....the rest kick off force weapons. Not that difficult to do both if you have to. It's academic however. Multi-wound models dead even w/o the extra str....force weapons, on basic troops...Not good? Don't make me laugh.

Awesomesauce. Regular Marines in general suck. We're playing a mech game. What you want are guys with BS4 and multiple special weapons and minimum stats and armour saves and points cost in every other category. What GK do well is run unshakeable and unstunnable vehicles. Now if we could only field a legal army from the dedicated transports category and we wouldn't need anything else.

Regular Marines may suck...these guys arent exactly regular.

GK's dont have to play a Mech Game. Try to run Mech within 24" of Grey Knight troops...see how long your vehicles last.

Try to run Mech within 24" of Grey Knight troops...see how long your vehicles last.

If you could only explain why the vehicles (chimeras, hydras, manticores, leman russes, lasbacks, venoms, raiders, ravagers, etc, etc.) need to go within 24" of the GK I could see what you're saying.

Therion wrote:

Try to run Mech within 24" of Grey Knight troops...see how long your vehicles last.

If you could only explain why the vehicles (chimeras, hydras, manticores, leman russes, lasbacks, venoms, raiders, ravagers, etc, etc.) need to go within 24" of the GK I could see what you're saying.

Well...since the Grey Knights are mid feild if they need to be. Sort of hard to avoid it.

Well...since the Grey Knights are mid feild if they need to be. Sort of hard to avoid it.

a) Their anti-tank firepower within 24" range isn't that scary. Psycannon is slightly better than a lascannon when it has range. It's still just a lascannon. If you have 20-30 of them, you have firepower, then move to b:

b) Things that outrange all those psycannons will deploy to their table edge, not 12" in. Now the only chance you got (of actually outshooting a shooty enemy) is some type of alpha strike list and since Purifiers/Purgators with quad psycannons are unable to do that we must be talking about some different type of list than the '24 inch zone of death' that you described.

I simply can't see it happening with Strike Squads. The situation was completely different in the scandex when psycannons were 36".

I think the detractors are complaining because of the lack of more than 1 Attack.

they got used to having (effectively) 2 base attacks per PAGK, and S6 attacks.

So dropping true grit and giving everyone S4 Force weapons(with added bonuses depending on points spent) hurts "dare poor widdle feawings".

Therion: 24" weapons is bad, really? I mean 1 shot 24" is bad, but 2 shots is not, especially on the move. These are marines Firing 20 S4 ap5 shots, advancing towards you and maybe even making good use of cover. There is nowhere to hide(except out of LOS), no where to run(without turbo-boosting/Flat out movement). Grey knights do not need the enemy to come to them, they will go to the enemy; Gun-line infantry need the enemy to come to them, Grey knights are not gun-line infantry; they are more like Shoota boyz with better range and BS.

Why exactly will the grey knight be charged vs Charging: the only way for that to make sense is for the grey knights play to forget that he has better maneuverability while maintaining sustained fire over other armies, or to completely forget that his weapons are all assault. All other normal marines get charged; grey knights charge.

Limited Scope does not wide reaching assessments make. SM Profile is far from crummy; foot marine lists are still competitive; and it is the marine Statline that makes them so. your whole post smacks of whining about the Grey Knights not being a "win button"; this game has no "Win button" Armies; if you want a "Win Button" army: go play a different game.

Therion wrote:

Try to run Mech within 24" of Grey Knight troops...see how long your vehicles last.

If you could only explain why the vehicles (chimeras, hydras, manticores, leman russes, lasbacks, venoms, raiders, ravagers, etc, etc.) need to go within 24" of the GK I could see what you're saying.

Pitched Battle, Dawn of War or any mission with objectives?

Therion: 24" weapons is bad, really? I mean 1 shot 24" is bad, but 2 shots is not, especially on the move. These are marines Firing 20 S4 ap5 shots, advancing towards you and maybe even making good use of cover. There is nowhere to hide(except out of LOS)

Nowhere to hide? How about transports?

Pitched Battle, Dawn of War or any mission with objectives?

Don't be dense now. You move to the objectives turn 4 onwards after the enemy has been blown to bits.

Therion wrote:

Try to run Mech within 24" of Grey Knight troops...see how long your vehicles last.

If you could only explain why the vehicles (chimeras, hydras, manticores, leman russes, lasbacks, venoms, raiders, ravagers, etc, etc.) need to go within 24" of the GK I could see what you're saying.

Therion, you can do better than this.

So your IG and DE heavy tanks and transports can outrange Grey Knight basic troopers.

Impressive, but is this supposed to be anything but obvious?

You know what they DONT outrange? Grey Knight Transports, psybolt equipped Riflemen, shunting DK's and other stuff. Weird huh?


What about your IG or DE regular troopers?....oh yea...troops to troops, they get wasted b/c str 5 stormbolters will kill the crap out of them.

We're not talking about comparisons of your heavy support units to Grey Knight basic troops, we're comparing troops choices.

Deadshane1 wrote:...b/c thats what everyone seems to be saying.

Best infantry shooty weapon in the game. (especially when you add psybolts) Check.
Best Close Combat Weapon in the game. (WITH the added bonus of Daemonbane) Check.
Marine Stats. Check.
ATSKNF. Check.

They seem to be rather broken to me. poor tactical squads, no one wants you anymore. Adding a storm bolter and power weapon to a basic marine is worth more than 4 points IMHO.

DE trueborn with shard carbines cost 17 points. 3 shots at 18", 4+ posion. They have 2 attacks, but Str3 T3 and a 5+ save. They are also breakable and take up an elite choice. 4+ posion is better than str4 or 5 only against MC. I would gladly take 1 power weapon attack for 2 regular attacks and that still has not gone near the Str3 T3 5+ save.

Therion wrote:Don't be dense now. You move to the objectives turn 4 onwards after the enemy has been blown to bits.

Oh, how could I have been so dense? Thank you, Therion, for enlightening me.

You can't avoid the 24" bubble or as Deadshane brought up, all of their transports, shunting troops, lazermonkeys, etc that are supporting them.

Unless we're just doing Vet Squads vs Strike Squads. Then we can have an entertaining chase around the board while you fire your multilazor at us.

I swear, some people must play on 10x6 boards or something.

Good luck staying 24" away from a Grey Knight army that has:

all the transports everybody else does
Stormraven aka fastest assault vehicle in the game
everything deep strikes
Fastest MC in the game (Dreadknight)
Fastest Infantry in the game (Interceptor Squads)
the ability to move and shoot
teleporting psychic power

You hug the board edge with your chimeras while I sit on the objectives.

I plan on taking a Grandmaster, 3 Dreadknights with teleporters, and 30 Interceptor Marines. All of which (except for the Master himself) can assault turn 1.

You still need troops with a GM, 3 DK's with Teleporters and 3 Interceptor Squads.

You can't avoid the 24" bubble or as Deadshane brought up, all of their transports, shunting troops, lazermonkeys, etc that are supporting them.

We're not talking about comparisons of your heavy support units to Grey Knight basic troops, we're comparing troops choices.

Impressive. After I pointed out the weakness of the GK Strike Squads you countered my argument by saying that you have other units with a better range. It's great that you're learning.

I plan on taking a Grandmaster, 3 Dreadknights with teleporters, and 30 Interceptor Marines. All of which (except for the Master himself) can assault turn 1.

200+ ~660 + ~825-850 + 2x5 Strike Squad GK in Rhinos or something 280 = 2000 points.

You have 2x5 scoring models unless you don't use Grand Strategy for scouting. It's D3 units by the way that can scout or score, not 3, and only scouting units will assault turn 1. You also have about 6 weapons capable of busting tanks but hey you sure have a lot of power weapons that you can try to scratch moving transports with while you're getting blown to bits. With IG I run 17 AV12 vehicles at 2000 points. It wouldn't be pretty for you.

We're not talking about comparisons of your heavy support units to Grey Knight basic troops, we're comparing troops choices.

We're not doing any cross-army comparisons. We're establishing the fact that the Strike Squad GK aren't good and that the troops section should be filled with Henchmen because they simply do a better all-around job in pretty much every kit.

Impressive. After I pointed out the weakness of the GK Strike Squads you countered my argument by saying that you have other units with a better range. It's great that you're learning.

No.

I stated that Strike Squads are not bad and you stated the stupidly obvious by saying that Heavy Support and HW armed transports outrange them.

Ummmm...duh?

We're not talking about your heavy support, we're talking about comparisons between troop choices here and their effectivness when compared to each other. NOT when compared to something from a different section of the FOC that is SUPPOSED to have more firepower than they do.

NOT when compared to something from a different section of the FOC that is SUPPOSED to have more firepower than they do.

Of course we are. If you're buying multiple ten man squads of Strike Squad GK it means you're spending points on short ranged units. Your army will therefore have considerably less long range power than it could have on top of having less long range firepower than many other codex armies naturally. My contention was that you're putting yourself at a disadvantage which you can interpret as Strike Squads sucking (as in your thread title). I only brought other armies into the question when you tried to argue you won't get outshot and outranged because you'll just walk to the middle of the table and then blow up the Chimera wall with storm bolters.

Deadshane1 wrote:

I stated that Strike Squads are not bad and you stated the stupidly obvious by saying that Heavy Support and HW armed transports outrange them.

The 24" thing isnt too bad, its just you need to be careful about movement and maximizing your damage rather than spamming slightly undercosted rocket teams and being able to hit the entire map.

is it a disadvantage? sure, is it insurmountable? no way.

In my experience people /really/ underestimated even the previous codex's stormbolter marines at range, now that they can threaten rhino's and many light vehicles, it'll be interesting.
I don't see razorback spam as being super effective, every unit of GK's is pretty much guaranteed to at least shake one.

It's not that they suck...it's that they don't fir in the current meta. It looks like they are a great buy, but right now, guard and spacewolves are at the top because their troop choices get cheap access to melta and a transport.

The melta part means they kill other mech armies better, and the cheap access means they have more of them.

You are paying for guys with storm bolter and power weapons, but in ths edition, storm bolters and power weapons are junk against mech armies.

scuddman wrote:It's not that they suck...it's that they don't fir in the current meta. It looks like they are a great buy, but right now, guard and spacewolves are at the top because their troop choices get cheap access to melta and a transport.

The melta part means they kill other mech armies better, and the cheap access means they have more of them.

You are paying for guys with storm bolter and power weapons, but in ths edition, storm bolters and power weapons are junk against mech armies.

Finally another person who is playing the same version of the game. Thank you.

I think GK can very much compete against mech armies. You have str 8 dreadnaughts to pop transports at range, (btw AV11-13 isn't very durable) and you have psychic powers that allow you to teleport your infantry which makes up for the lack of mobility that transports give you. You also don't have those easy kill points that rhinos, raiders, and chimeras are.

All these things are true for Pariahs, and how many of those do you see taken because they're awesome?

DarknessEternal wrote:
All these things are true for Pariahs, and how many of those do you see taken because they're awesome?

Silly and unrelated point (straw-man?)

They are in the necron book, but aren't necrons and don't count towards phaseout.

Necrons don't have transports, and have a bunch of other issues before you can even think about pariahs... Which almost cost as much as GKTs.

On topic:

GKs have issues, having enough anti tank platforms without resorting to henchman spam is one. Cheap and numerous psycannons go a long way to helping with taking out transports, but aren't a panacea.

I think that overall the book is pretty balanced. It has its strength and weakness, but it still can compete without resorting to the "mono build" that some books tend to have. I think in the near future we will hear some gnashing of teeth complaining of how OP the book is, giving way to the more rational people saying it really isn't.

I'm not really interested in how well GKs stack up to marines , I'm more interested in the DE and guard matchups, those look scary, while I think GKs can walk on most opposing Meq lists.

Perhaps ... on the off chance, between all the screams of overpowered and underpowered, we have before us....a ...a balanced codex ?

Jaon wrote:Perhaps ... on the off chance, between all the screams of overpowered and underpowered, we have before us....a ...a balanced codex ?

That is my opinion, though some people will claim that any Modern Meq codex is OP. GKs give up some of the flexiblity that codex marines get for more elite units and unique auxiliaries.

They have foils for common problems, and ways to defend against people trying exploit their weakness. Seems pretty balanced, the points costs seem a bit low on some of the units, but that might be more of a GW overvaluing PWs (and lets be honest, most force weapons very rarely use the ID mode, the FW somewhat makes up for the low number of attacks on occasion) and storm bolters in other books.

I'm not quite sure yet. The Inquisitional elements can really push it into powergame territory. We'll have to wait until players get a few games under their belts to really see how it'll work out.

Jaon wrote:Perhaps ... on the off chance, between all the screams of overpowered and underpowered, we have before us....a ...a balanced codex ?

I haven't really seen much being described as underpowered in the codex. Then again, I haven't seen the codex yet.

notabot187 wrote:I'm not really interested in how well GKs stack up to marines , I'm more interested in the DE and guard matchups, those look scary, while I think GKs can walk on most opposing Meq lists.

I really like this statement.

GK seems to be one of the first books that looks to perfectly counter MEQ books, but will struggle against a lot of Xenos.

I forsee Eldar, DE, IG, and to a lesser extent, Tau, all initially having a lot of success against GK. Yes, even against OMGTHIRTYINCHSCOUTINGDREADKNIGHTSSSSSS. The same tools people have been using to kill MC's will work against the Dreadknight: Plasma, Lascannons, Melta. It only has a 5+ invul and 4W, which means (GASP!) that it takes the exact same number of wounds to kill it as it does to kill a Trygon! Sure, it's more survivable against Krak Missiles, but in the end, fielding 3 Dreadknights means they aren't taking any S8 Riflemen Dreads or Land Raiders, which means Terminators are either walking, Deep Striking, or taking a Stormraven, none of which are a great option if a forth of your points are tied up in MC's downfield.

24" Psycannons are balanced, so get over it. If a Venom is dump enough to get within 24" of a Psycannon, it deserves to die. Simple as that.

Storm Bolters make Grey Knights good at something that doesn't even matter: anti-infantry at 12-12"... but when does that even come into play in Mech Edition 40k?

Yeah, Power Weapons all over the place (especially I6 Power Weapons) mean that Grey Knights are going to beat any non-dedicated close combat unit in assault, but their low model count means the opponent gets to be much more selective about when and where to engage GK's in close combat.

And, lastly, the HQ slot is extremely competitive. Taking Coteaz means you need to choose between a Librarian and a Grand Master. Taking both a Librarian and a Grand Master is insanely expensive, and suffer from both Deathstar Syndome and a lack of deployment options.

I am not that impressed with Grey Knights. Every army is uber hyped prior to the release... Nothing new here.

The more I am looking at it and thinking about it; the more I am coming to realize that Grey Knights are much more of a "Tool-Box" army than any of the more recent ones.

What I mean by this is that SW, BA, and DE; have small selections of Sledgehammers, and most armies consist of players Spamming 1 or 2 weights of Sledgehammer, thinking that will work as a Multi-tool.

Grey Knights will force players to bring a bit more variety in their Lists.

Spamming Hencmen with Coteaz? You had better bring several differently outfitted squads in order to deal with everything.

Pure GK: better take a mix of units.

GK strike squads don't necessarily suck, but they aren't that great either.

For a base 20pts per model, you get an assault 2, 24" range, str4 ap5 weapon and a 1A force weapon.

It's not terrible. It's not great. It's meh. Start adding psybolts, psycannon, halberds and other upgrades and they get expensive. For my basic marine troop unit, I want to get 10 guys plus transport for about 200pts kitted out.

You cannot do that with GK strike squads. No way. No how. Period. Doesn't make them bad, but it sure doesn't make them good. It makes them...meh.

shealyr wrote:

notabot187 wrote:I'm not really interested in how well GKs stack up to marines , I'm more interested in the DE and guard matchups, those look scary, while I think GKs can walk on most opposing Meq lists.

I really like this statement.

GK seems to be one of the first books that looks to perfectly counter MEQ books, but will struggle against a lot of Xenos.

I forsee Eldar, DE, IG, and to a lesser extent, Tau, all initially having a lot of success against GK. Yes, even against OMGTHIRTYINCHSCOUTINGDREADKNIGHTSSSSSS. The same tools people have been using to kill MC's will work against the Dreadknight: Plasma, Lascannons, Melta. It only has a 5+ invul and 4W, which means (GASP!) that it takes the exact same number of wounds to kill it as it does to kill a Trygon! Sure, it's more survivable against Krak Missiles, but in the end, fielding 3 Dreadknights means they aren't taking any S8 Riflemen Dreads or Land Raiders, which means Terminators are either walking, Deep Striking, or taking a Stormraven, none of which are a great option if a forth of your points are tied up in MC's downfield.

Just saying, venerable riflemen are elites. Dreadknights and interceptors who are granted scouts can scout-shunt and charge on the first turn.

Deleted

imweasel wrote:It's not terrible. It's not great. It's meh. Start adding psybolts, psycannon, halberds and other upgrades and they get expensive. For my basic marine troop unit, I want to get 10 guys plus transport for about 200pts kitted out.

You cannot do that with Vanilla marines either; 170pt Base 10 man Squad; even if you "kitted out" version is Flamer and Missile Launcher, your Sgt is naked soe what give him a power Sword and melta Bombs? That is 190 points, then we add the Rhinoand we have 225 pts.

Lets revisit the Strike Squad shall we? 200 points base 10 man unit, 20 points for Guns(assuming the Choice will either be Psilencer+Incinerator, or Paired Psycannons); And generally Either 50ish Points for Weapons upgrades, or 30+Psybolt amunition(so 50 in upgrades here). That is 270 points, plus a 40 point Rhino for 310 points.

Differences in combat: GK are more maneuverable, they can move and Fire their all Str5 2-shot 24" range guns and Fire the S7 rending psycannons(sure if you went with CC oriented Strike Squad they will only be S4 guns, and may or may not include some Special ranged weapons, but I will get to them)Heck they may not even want the Rhino(The mech game is nice, but not necessary; especially with GKs) Relying instead on other units to crack transports so they can get at the juicy meat inside. At Range Grey Knights Pump out more Fire than Tac marines, & while moving; in close range(within 12) they equate in general firepower, but gry Knights get more Heavy fire, still while moving.

CC: Grey knights get the same # of attacks as Tac Marines(1 less actually unless 2 of the Weapon upgrades was Falchions, which still have their Storm Bolter BTW), but all of their attacks ignore the tac marines Armor save while only 3(4 on the charge) of the Tac marines do likewise vs the GK. 4 PW attacks(assuming the Tacs charged, which means the GK Player Screwed up bad, forgetting he is more mobile) means that 2 are expected to hit, and 1 wound. that is 1 Grey knight Lost; 18 other attacks(assuming Halberds were not taken as CCW upgrades) mean that 9 are expected to hit, 4.5 to wound, 1.5 Dead GKs; the 8 PW attacks in return(along with 2 normal) means the tac Marines win the combat by 1/6th of a Wound; of course this also assumes that the GKs either chose not to use, or Failed the test for, hammerhand. that is all tipping the scales in favor of the tac marines; And reducing the Cost of the GK unit to 30 more points than them(no weapon upgrades at all).

Kommissar Kel wrote:You cannot do that with Vanilla marines either; 170pt Base 10 man Squad; even if you "kitted out" version is Flamer and Missile Launcher, your Sgt is naked soe what give him a power Sword and melta Bombs? That is 190 points, then we add the Rhinoand we have 225 pts.

Or don't give your non-CC squad CC upgrades and now you're at 205 with rhino. Or you're playing SW and get 10 GH plus dual melta plus rhino for 180 pts. Etc.

Lets revisit the Strike Squad shall we? 200 points base 10 man unit, 20 points for Guns(assuming the Choice will either be Psilencer+Incinerator, or Paired Psycannons); And generally Either 50ish Points for Weapons upgrades, or 30+Psybolt amunition(so 50 in upgrades here). That is 270 points, plus a 40 point Rhino for 310 points.

And 105 pionts is a LOT more points. In the same way a 1500 list is a LOT more than a 1,000 list.

@Kommisar

I usually pay 205 or 210pts for my tac marines.

I usually pay 200 for my GH.

Those are kitted out as much as I care to kitt them out.

For me, that's 'about 200pts'. PAGK's do come close to that if you don't take a transport or very limited upgrades (like just psy ammunition). It still doesn't fit my needs.

It's true that PAGK's pump out more firepower at 18-30" than tac squads for anti-infantry, which in the current mechanized environment doesn't mean that much.

To me, PAGK's don't 'suck' and are not 'broken'. They are meh.

Nurglitch wrote:So learn how to screen, or hide in transports, or play reserves, or even deploy your own anti-deepstrike stuff like the Land Speeder Storm. Sure, the new Grey Knights are shiny, but they still have to buy you dinner first.

Many armies have no way of doing one or more vof those. Anti-DS rules are quite rare. Transports lower than AV13 are very easily popped by S8 Rifleman shots and even psycannons. And of course, some armies like nids, daemons and Necrons have no transports.

Yes, there's usually a counter. That doesn't mean it's a good one.

Sephyr wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:So learn how to screen, or hide in transports, or play reserves, or even deploy your own anti-deepstrike stuff like the Land Speeder Storm. Sure, the new Grey Knights are shiny, but they still have to buy you dinner first.

Many armies have no way of doing one or more vof those.

Yes but every army can do 1 or 2 of those thing. Thats the point learn to use what your armys got.

10 PAGKs,for 2x psycannons, psy bolt ammo,rhino = 280. That is pretty much how I would run them, might skip the psybolt ammo, but being S5 is pretty good. The CC options aren't needing in an effectively shooting squad, and if you need more than force weapons on 10 guys then you aren't fighting the right units with the right units. The psycannons are in the squad since they can fire 4-8 S7 Shots out of the firing points. Might add a 5 point warp stabilization field if running a teleport librarian with beacon.

I run my regular marines at 205 pt range. I usually take 3 units, so with GKs I would probably just run 2. The firepower of those 2 units is pretty strong, and they can assault better than regular marines, so its probably close to a wash when it comes killing and surviving (easier to survive when your target is dead, and you can safely assault things, which tacs can't really do).

Razorback squads: 5 guys, incinerator, riding in either a las/plas, or assault cannon with psybolt ammo, which is 200-205. Pretty pricey TBH. The fortitude will keep it firing longer than other armies, and the guy inside are much scarier than what other lists bring. Is it worth the pt premium compared to other books? I'm betting yes, but will limit yet again how many models you take (and it isn't even a tooled out squad).

There is also the option of taking 10 guys with razorback, and combat squading them. The guys with the psycannons or incinerators group into the same squad, while the stormbolters do their own thing guarding home objectives or something. Very pricey way to run them, but I've had decent results with vanilla marines running like this.

Deadshane1 wrote:
One character in joined to the unit activates hammerhand that effects the unit?....the rest kick off force weapons. Not that difficult to do both if you have to. It's academic however. Multi-wound models dead even w/o the extra str....force weapons, on basic troops...Not good? Don't make me laugh.

A little off-topic but you can't cast the psychic powers separately. The Brotherhood of Psykers (or something similar) special rule states that you pick one power for the squad to use, and the whole squad uses the same one with just the one psychic test.

Rephistorch wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:
One character in joined to the unit activates hammerhand that effects the unit?....the rest kick off force weapons. Not that difficult to do both if you have to. It's academic however. Multi-wound models dead even w/o the extra str....force weapons, on basic troops...Not good? Don't make me laugh.

A little off-topic but you can't cast the psychic powers separately. The Brotherhood of Psykers (or something similar) special rule states that you pick one power for the squad to use, and the whole squad uses the same one with just the one psychic test.

he had said that an Attached IC was "casting" hammerhand; that makes the Whole unit +1 Str, and the Unit(Strike Squad) has not yet cast a Power; after the unit scores their first unsaved wound; they are free to activate their NFWs. if it was A Librarian attached to the Strike squad the Librarian is free to activate his NFW as well, or cast a different power that turn

Kommissar Kel wrote:
The more I am looking at it and thinking about it; the more I am coming to realize that Grey Knights are much more of a "Tool-Box" army than any of the more recent ones.

What I mean by this is that SW, BA, and DE; have small selections of Sledgehammers, and most armies consist of players Spamming 1 or 2 weights of Sledgehammer, thinking that will work as a Multi-tool.

Grey Knights will force players to bring a bit more variety in their Lists.

Spamming Hencmen with Coteaz? You had better bring several differently outfitted squads in order to deal with everything.

Pure GK: better take a mix of units.

In my opinion both BA and SW are also both tool box armies as well. They both have lots of awesome options/wargear for many units that make them more effective overall at what each unit does best - to me that is a big part of what a good codex should have. It's all about finding the right combinations to create an overall deadly army. I'd even go so far as to say that dark eldar are also in many ways another tool box army - dark eldar I think have mostly been overlooked by the majority following the public release of the codex. They have many options that are very useful versus a wide assortment of armies - just take the venom blade as a perfect example... It's adds a good bit of oomph to assaults for units like Warriors and helps to win versus units like guardsmen and gaunts, plus the venom blade is a real bargain at only five points. That's how I see it.

I have been playing around trying to make some GK lists and the numbers just add upp fast. If you want a full squad of interceptors that is 260 points and you have not yet come to the part where you buy upgrades for them. It is insane.

Good luck staying 24" away from a Grey Knight army that has:

all the transports everybody else does
1 Stormraven aka fastest assault vehicle in the game
2 everything deep strikes
3 Fastest MC in the game (Dreadknight)
4 Fastest Infantry in the game (Interceptor Squads)
5 the ability to move and shoot
6 teleporting psychic power

lol

1: Fragile eggs-in-basket unit that is far from powerful. Even the S8 missiles BA get are removed. You load a dread and a troop squad into a stormraven and you end up with a 550p unit that has AV12.
Wow, truly overpowered...not.

2: Piecemeal yes. Meaning of your 5 DS squads (since that is all you can afford) 2-3 will come in and face the whole enemy army and not even have any shooting resilence to balance that up with. Wow.

3: A t6 MC being powerful, since when? Last time I checked people laugh at winged deamon princes and nid monsters with better saves. Dark eldar poison weapons and lance spam cares not the least bit for a 200+ point T6 MC with super crappy shooting options.

4: Sucks. You pay 280 points for a glorified assault squad that goes down just as easy to shooting as a 150p grey hunter squad.

5: At 24´range only yes with half the weapon load being useless (that heavy psilencer crap). How hard is it for the mech builds of today to stay out of 24´?

6: Piecemeal again and with zero shooting protection that doesnt need terrain, good scatter and luck to rely on.


Oh and you forgot, one 100p psychic hood or one 15p runes of warding will nullify half the GK army.
You also forgot the GK codex have no playable (competitive) named ICs to speak of. Thats rather sad.

Pyriel- wrote:

Good luck staying 24" away from a Grey Knight army that has:

all the transports everybody else does
1 Stormraven aka fastest assault vehicle in the game
2 everything deep strikes
3 Fastest MC in the game (Dreadknight)
4 Fastest Infantry in the game (Interceptor Squads)
5 the ability to move and shoot
6 teleporting psychic power

lol

1: Fragile eggs-in-basket unit that is far from powerful. Even the S8 missiles BA get are removed. You load a dread and a troop squad into a stormraven and you end up with a 550p unit that has AV12.
Wow, truly overpowered...not.

2: Piecemeal yes. Meaning of your 5 DS squads (since that is all you can afford) 2-3 will come in and face the whole enemy army and not even have any shooting resilence to balance that up with. Wow.

3: A t6 MC being powerful, since when? Last time I checked people laugh at winged deamon princes and nid monsters with better saves. Dark eldar poison weapons and lance spam cares not the least bit for a 200+ point T6 MC with super crappy shooting options.

4: Sucks. You pay 280 points for a glorified assault squad that goes down just as easy to shooting as a 150p grey hunter squad.

5: At 24´range only yes with half the weapon load being useless (that heavy psilencer crap). How hard is it for the mech builds of today to stay out of 24´?

6: Piecemeal again and with zero shooting protection that doesnt need terrain, good scatter and luck to rely on.


Oh and you forgot, one 100p psychic hood or one 15p runes of warding will nullify half the GK army.
You also forgot the GK codex have no playable (competitive) named ICs to speak of. Thats rather sad.

LOL x 2

1: Stormravens=weak. What game are you playing when a dreadnought and 6 Force Weapon terminators in a complex squad are charging you from a vehicle that just had a 3+ Flat out cover save,l spat out enough firepower to open any vehicle in the game, pepper the unit it's charging with str4 then kill the crap out of it with Str5 Power/Force Weapons..possibly at initiative 10 with Grenades. Yea...that sucks....bad, I mean, wtf is that going to hurt. Might as well be running Ogryns. Duh. (Plus, have you read what this unit can do to YOUR psychic defense? I didnt think so)

2. Read the Dex. Psychic Communion. Know what you're talking about.

3. Better saves than a 2+/5++ in the Nid and Chaos Codex for MC's? Where pray tell? You right, poison is awesome against armour 2+. Meanwhile, while you're trying to drag down these 2+ save monsters with poison (you got one turn to do it by the way....they're faster than your DE) The rest of the army is knocking you out of the sky with basic infantry weapons. You know, the basic infantry that you're probably REALLY shooting at? B/C of the 3+ armour save and actual chance to kill something? You do know that the Grey Knight dex is pretty much OVERLOADED with stuff that kills DE right? Pick a good matchup next time. DE are anything but the rock to the Grey Knight scissors. Yea, DE just KILL GK's, cept for the fact they get bent over the fence with psychic powers the whole game....whats that? You can make me make a ld check or a guy out of each squad dies? GL getting to me and forcing me to make a ld 10 check. Meanwhile...I'll be shooting you out of the sky. (and I actually PLAY DE!)

4. Interceptors go down as easy to shooting as Grey Hunters. Wow, there's a news flash. Obvious much? More obvious for you, they're shootier by huge amounts, they come with some of the best HtH weapons in the game, and they're the fastest troopers in the game...without the aid of a transport. Yes, they're more expensive than Grey Hunters. I know its a big surprise to you, its this thing called "game balance".

5. 30, 36, or shunt + 24" ranges actually. Assault Weapons? I'd say that its pretty hard to stay away from that when you can command the middle of the playing feild with foottroopers w/o fear.

6.Again, read the codex, know what you're talking about. It's easier to appear smart that way. Psychic power-Summoning. Allows your Libby to teleport a unit (including certain vehicles) to within 6" of him. Oh "looky looky", Libbys can get Teleport Homers as standard equiptment. You think that might be useful? Hmmmm?

Bring your psychic hood....maybe you'll get lucky and stop half of my psychic powers...you know everything I have on the board casts them right? Oh, you brought a libby to hood my stuff? Lets see if the points you spent get you any psychic powers of your own. Probably not, considering MY psychic hood and Aegis. You see....Grey Knights RULE the psychic phase in this game. They're designed that way. Unfortunatly, you cannot hood my psybolts, psycannon, power weapons, shunts and all the other little toys that I've got.

....oh, wait a minute, nevermind. My Vindicare (buried behind my troops with a 2+ cover save that you can get if you look at the dex closely enough) Just picked out your offending psychic defence and killed him. He's lucky my Culuxes or shunting Dreadknight (owaitaminute they suck) got to him first.

No IC's worth a damn...tell that to the horde of Draigo Fans out there. Whatever he hits, he destroys. Even Rocky knows that. Meanwhile, who needs a named IC when I can bring a Generic....

WS-6
BS-6
Str-4
T-4
W-3
I-5
A-3
Ld-10
Sv-2+/4++

Who has a Str 5 force weapon in combat, (he's a level 2 you know) A Range 24" Str7 4 shot rending weapon at range, has a 2+ Invuln in close combat that doesnt go away after rolling a '1', Lowers your T by 1 when he charges you (after getting out of my Stormraven that you think sucks) and rr's one dice to hit and one dice to wound. He can't be bargained with, he can't be reasoned with. He'll find your IC, it's what he does, it's ALL he does! He'll find Mephiston/Dante/Ghazkull/whoever and rip his friggin' heart out!

...oh btw, he also makes d3 of my units scout, take objectives like troops, or RR all 1's to wound. HELL! Why bring 1 when you can bring 2 at twice the price? You're named IC's can't do that.

I've said it b4, I'll say it again, read the codex. Know what you're talking about.

Well there pretty good but could be changeed in real dex.

Deadshane1 wrote:1: Stormravens=weak. What game are you playing when a dreadnought and 6 Force Weapon terminators in a complex squad are charging you from a vehicle that just had a 3+ Flat out cover save,l spat out enough firepower to open any vehicle in the game, pepper the unit it's charging with str4 then kill the crap out of it with Str5 Power/Force Weapons..possibly at initiative 10 with Grenades. Yea...that sucks....bad, I mean, wtf is that going to hurt. Might as well be running Ogryns. Duh. (Plus, have you read what this unit can do to YOUR psychic defense? I didnt think so).

Storm Raven only gets a 4+ from flat out. It's basically a smoked Chimera.

No doubt DK Termis plus Dread will smash any single unit they charge (esp with Libby support), but it's still an 800 point flying Chimera. If you get first turn, yeah you're fine. Go second, you're forced to put it into Reserves and have the joy of a 1200 v 2000 game for two to three turns. Go first and get the initiative stolen on you, and you're down a Storm Raven.

That all IS in the real dex.

Deadshane1 wrote:
No IC's worth a damn...tell that to the horde of Draigo Fans out there. Whatever he hits, he destroys. Even Rocky knows that. Meanwhile, who needs a named IC when I can bring a Generic....

I agree with everything you said, but I feel that I have to add: Inquisitor Lord Torquemeda Coteaz is BAD? REALLY? "Ohnoez, there's no characters who can kill Mephiston in 1 on 1 (which there is BTW) so everything must SUCK!"...

Pretty sure he's putting a libby in the SR w/the squad. Meaning it's got a 3+ Cover instead of 4. And since he casts it in your shooting phase moving flat out doesn't affect it.

Funny idea, A wing of 3 Storm Ravens, all turbo-ing, and all w/a 3+ save. Be kinda cool. Not saying competitive. But it's a reason for me to get so SR's for my GK's

Deadshane I'd like to see that list of yours that has scouting Dreadknights, a Grand Master, mass Interceptors, full size Grey Knight units, tons of that shooting you're raving about, a Librarian, Paladins, a Stormraven, a Techmarine and a Vindicare, because it sounds like an awful army even Jervis Johnson's kid would beat. Put that list of yours into 1750 points so we can see what it looks like.

sourclams wrote:
Storm Raven only gets a 4+ from flat out. It's basically a smoked Chimera.

Shrouding adds Stealth to any unit within 6". Pretty much manditory to get a libby in the 'Raven.

No doubt DK Termis plus Dread will smash any single unit they charge (esp with Libby support), but it's still an 800 point flying Chimera. If you get first turn, yeah you're fine. Go second, you're forced to put it into Reserves and have the joy of a 1200 v 2000 game for two to three turns. Go first and get the initiative stolen on you, and you're down a Storm Raven.

My point was that its hardly a sucky unit....people are winning lots of high level Indie GT tounament games with these things.

...and you cannot live in fear of someone stealing the initiative from you....and it's not something your opponent can count on anyway. (barring Vect, even then....)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Therion wrote:Deadshane I'd like to see that list of yours that has scouting Dreadknights, a Grand Master, mass Interceptors, full size Grey Knight units, tons of that shooting you're raving about, a Librarian, Paladins, a Stormraven, a Techmarine and a Vindicare, because it sounds like an awful army even Jervis Johnson's kid would beat. Put that list of yours into 1750 points so we can see what it looks like.

I dont remember saying that my army list has ALL this stuff. However, the Grey Knight dex is very toolboxy and capbable of everything I mentioned.

ALSO

I was responding to a post....apparently (according to your logic here) the guy I was responding to has Dark eldar, chaos and tyranid monstrous creatures, and marine and eldar psykers all in his list. At least I stayed in one Codex.

Please follow the thread better next time Therion.

Libby stealth ftw...

Deadshane1 wrote:

sourclams wrote:
Storm Raven only gets a 4+ from flat out. It's basically a smoked Chimera.

Shrouding adds Stealth to any unit within 6". Pretty much manditory to get a libby in the 'Raven.

No doubt that adding more points/support to a unit will make it better, but while even BA storm ravens have pretty pricy loadouts, GK can totally break the bank. Libby plus Purifiers plus Storm Raven plus Dreadnought is pushing 800 points easy. If you go a little nuts on upgrades... closer to 900.

I don't think people will actually run the Dreadnought because their real strength looks to be shooting psybolted autocannons from the backfield, so leave that off and it's 700-800 pts "only".

You can save a few points by sticking with Termis instead of Purifiers, which could cut overall costs by 50 pts or so, but then you don't have nearly as impressive an assault unit.

The basic point stands, though, if you go first you're fine, if you go second you're having the joy of a 1300 pt fight versus 2000 pts of stuff for a few turns. That's not a build that I'd expect people to be running consistently. At most, Storm Raven plus a 200-250 pt squad for decent CC ability at a total cost of 500 or fewer is probably the sweet spot.

sourclams wrote:

It's absolutly a lychpin of the army, one that can be targetted. It's still an effective unit...and doesnt "suck".

Still....if you get first turn you start on the board, move, flat out and try to 'Shroud' and weather the storm while your other stuff (however little amount it may be) attempts to support it.

If you go second, you reserve it and do the same. Libby's power goes off during the opponent's shooting phase.

If you get stolen on....lucky opponent. It happens, but it's not worth altering your game plan for.


Me personally? I prefer a smoked and stealthed LR if I'm doing the "all in one basket" thing. (which I try not to)

Please follow the thread better next time Therion.

I'm following just fine. People are pointing out how expensive and vulnerable GK armies can be and all you're doing is countering with 'then I'd have this in my army - then I'd have this - then I'd have that - then I'd do this' which is the standard of discussion you hear at GW shops from the 10 year olds at the painting table. This was apparent already on page 1 when you decided you had shooty GK that walk to middle and table mechanised armies with storm bolters.

You just keep driving around with that loaded 1000 point Stormraven while shooting with the Techmarined Vindicare and see how far that'll take you.

rovian wrote:Well there pretty good but could be changeed in real dex.

The codex is out, bro.

GK Strike squads are pricy. 20-ish points for an MEQ is always going to be rough, as Chaos players know well. Sometimes it's worth it; PMs are very good, and Berserkers are pretty good, though they lack meltas or other decent antitank guns, so you need other units to pick up their slack in that department, and I never field more than a single unit of them.

GK Strike squads with psycannons for transport-popping are probably viable, but the cost is really getting up there. More than I pay for a squad of 'Zerks (213 for eight with fist champ, icon), and comparable to a full-size squad of PMs, which are much more durable.

I think GKs will be competitive, but the points cost of the Troops is definitely going to make it tricky. I don't think I'd field more than a unit or two of the Strikes, depending on what the other options are.

GKSS should never be counted as "20pts" marines. Always "21pts" marines. That St5 on the SBs makes a difference. When moving a full squad, you're effectively reducing a MEq unit by 3 models every turn at 30". That will displease Longfangs a lot. you also have a good chance at glancing rhino-chassis if MEq are hidden inside.

I guess the thing is: people were expecting something like movie-marines or something. Now, we've got a good balanced dex. I like to call it codex: Eldar Marines. Because unlike Codex: Point-and-click (aka C: SW), you have to move your units tactically and choose if you use that psychic power or not (or which one you use). etc.

Phil

I'm looking at an all foot/walker army as my primary GK force. Strike Squads make up the bulk of it. But maybe that's my difference. I'm looking at them as a walking force. Let's do a compare real quick w/the other primary all foot army (loganwing). We'll do 5-man comparison assuming 3x10 Strike squads and 6x5 WG squads.

5 Strikes w/Psycannon + pysbolt is 120
5 WG w/1 Termie w/Cyclone is 135

Outside of 24" the WG have the advantage w/the St8 2 Shots. However, they are likely going to be moving to secure objectives in most games right? So in theory they'll probably spend most of the game w/24" of the enemy. In the first round of CC regardless of charging WG kill 1.75 dudes.

Now from 12-24" the GK's take the prize without a doubt. 8 St5 mobile shots and 2-4 St7 Rending shots depending on movement. In CC w/out the charge GK's kill 1.08 models. At 12" GK's still have the slight advantage as they're toting St5 and can still assault after firing if they choose. All for 12.5% cheaper.

So for 15pts cheaper you have a far more efficient midfield unit. Both armies have relative fire support and supporting units that can be added. But that's my personal take on it though and it's from the perspective of a pure infantry force but I think they stack up amazingly. I also think people just trying to cram them into rhinos and shoot from the bunkers are missing the purpose but that might just be me

@Boreas

It's 22pts per marine w/the ammo. It's a 20pt upgrade for the squad. It's the reason to take full squads then combat squad.

Hulksmash wrote:I'm looking at an all foot/walker army as my primary GK force. Strike Squads make up the bulk of it. But maybe that's my difference. I'm looking at them as a walking force.

This is largely how I've been viewing them as well. I'm honestly surprised at a lot of the intentions to include SRs and LRs as that seems to negate the big strengths of GK (from what I've seen) which is potent multi-role infantry and powerful support HQs. SRs and LRs cut down on model count pretty heavily.


I guess if you're relying on vehicle-mounted melta to do your anti-mech work before assaults, like 'traditional' Terminator wagons have typically done, then that's a bit different, but I really think that Vindicares and henches will fill that role in my lists (beyond psycannon toting Terms/PAGKs).

Hulksmash wrote:
It's 22pts per marine w/the ammo. It's a 20pt upgrade for the squad. It's the reason to take full squads then combat squad.

They get all their cute toys AND combat tactics? Why would anyone play ultramarines anymore? That's it, I'm going to paint my UltraSmurfs some odd color so they can be whatever new MEQ cheese GW comes out with next.

/nerd rage

Interesting comparison with loganwing, although 24" vs 48" range is a pretty big difference, especially considering the limited ranged options in the GK dex.

I'm curious also if GKSS retained the deepstrike rule in the actual dex. That's something not mentioned in the thread. If they retain it, that is pretty nifty for a scoring, short ranged unit with S5/S7rend shooting that can have its reserve rolls manipulated to suit (either alpha strike or late game objective grabs). Also makes their cost that much more palatable.

Also agree -- I am surprised the focus has been on meched GKSS. I guess old GK players have been waiting far too long for that option to not take it.

agnosto wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:
It's 22pts per marine w/the ammo. It's a 20pt upgrade for the squad. It's the reason to take full squads then combat squad.

They get all their cute toys AND combat tactics? Why would anyone play ultramarines anymore? That's it, I'm going to paint my UltraSmurfs some odd color so they can be whatever new MEQ cheese GW comes out with next.

/nerd rage

Combat squads /= Combat Tactics

GKs can combat squad (split a 10 man squad into 2 5-man squads on deployment), not use Combat Tactics (choose to fail morale tests).

Hulksmash wrote:
@Boreas

It's 22pts per marine w/the ammo. It's a 20pt upgrade for the squad. It's the reason to take full squads then combat squad.

D'oh, must learn to divide 20 by ten

Still, at 1800-2000pts, I can easily see 3 full squads of GKSS pumping 60 St5 shots at 30" (take that, fire warriors!) while I've got 2 full squads of purifiers combat-squadded: 2 -men squads moving up with the GKSS to help with CC. 2 5-men squads pumping 8-16 St7 rending shots. In the meanwhile, 2 riflemen dreads w/spybolts shoot 4 Twinlinked St8 shots each. That should severely threaten 4 Av12 vehicles per turn...

Of course, that's if I get first turn and blah blah. The thing is, this codex can compete even if it's not OTT. I'm happy it's not OTT, also. It means we're still roughly in the 5th ed. codex range and hopefully upcoming codice will keep there more of less (SW and IG being a bit more, SM and Orks and GK being a bit less).

Phil

Therion wrote:

Please follow the thread better next time Therion.

I'm following just fine. People are pointing out how expensive and vulnerable GK armies can be and all you're doing is countering with 'then I'd have this in my army - then I'd have this - then I'd have that - then I'd do this' which is the standard of discussion you hear at GW shops from the 10 year olds at the painting table. This was apparent already on page 1 when you decided you had shooty GK that walk to middle and table mechanised armies with storm bolters.

You just keep driving around with that loaded 1000 point Stormraven while shooting with the Techmarined Vindicare and see how far that'll take you.

Lemme repeat myself, you must be in the nosebleed seats.

I never said any particular army that I would run would have everything. Only that the Grey Knight dex is a good toolbox. Also that I was responding to a post that brought up Dark Eldar, chaos, tyranid mc's, marine and eldar psychers.

No, you're not paying attention to what is being said.

I am paying attention however, and If I remove all the useless chaff from your above post, the only debate/discussion worthy thing you said was....

Therion wrote: People are pointing out how expensive and vulnerable GK armies can be.

....sure they are...and in some cases they're failing miserably by not paying attention to facts, knowing whats in the codex or actually comparing what particular units/armies out of Codex:Grey Knights can do when up against other popular units/armies.

I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest with you Therion, but Nagash dammit, if someone states how sucky Stormravens, DreadKnights, and Terminators all are....I dont have to have ALL those units in my army that I run in order to defend them.

winterman wrote:
Also agree -- I am surprised the focus has been on meched GKSS. I guess old GK players have been waiting far too long for that option to not take it.

Agreed, I'm looking forward to marching up the board with a ton of S5 stormbolters and psycannons on 3+ cover or 5+ cover in the open, wound differentiated platforms, supported by outrageously cheap outflanking henchmen.

Let it go, bodyslamming you like this bores me.

Bodyslamming me huh? That's fresh. All I see is you changing your position every post and taking this thread more and more off topic. My guess to why someone brought up a variety of enemies is because you're supposed to be able to build a balanced force that is able to fight against all of them without any adaptation to your list. You can't cite a different unit combination to fight every possible enemy because you simply won't have them in your list in the same time -- Yes, you will have to be able to beat Stealer Shock, Green Tide, Razorspam, Mech IG, AV14 spam, DoA, Dark Eldar, Lash/Obli Chaos and whatever you come up with all with the same list. That was my problem with your post. You'll never have a Grand Master, a Librarian, a Techmarine, a Vindicare, Paladins, lots of Strike Squads, three Dreadknights, S8 Riflemans, Interceptor spam, Stormravens, Land Raiders etc in the same army. Whether you can find a good matchup for every unit in the codex is completely irrelevant if another unit counters it hard.

Now make a balanced and powerful tournament GK list to keep up with where this thread is going or get back to discussing GK Strike Squads. Additionally, please stop bodyslamming me like you've been doing. I just can't take it anymore!

ColdSadHungry wrote:Who's been saying they suck? All I hear is how the new GK codex is way too OP.

I think a PAGK based army will be the most competitive GK army (not thinking about henchmen here).

Yeah, this. Dunno what you're talking about OP. Everything I've seen so far is obscenely OP.

15 ML / Rune Priests/ TWC what more can I say......


Winning !

@Wintermann

While that range difference does matter I was basically showing that it isn't relevant since for objective missions they'd have to be on the move all game to achieve the win most of the time. Which mean that they'll spend the majority of their game w/in 24" of their opponent. It's not a GK vs. Loganwing game. It's a unit comparison on how they effectively function as an army against the current meta.

Glad other people are considering foot armies. I think they'll be the most fun and tactically exciting since they change the way the game is played.

This might be to late a comment to add, but ColdSadHungry they may be slightly OP but everyone could be moaning because they know they will lose against the army and not always due to 'OP' as people groan.

Wulfenone wrote:

15 ML / Rune Priests/ TWC what more can I say......


Winning !

Scout-shunting dreadknights... IDing TWC and laughing off missiles...

If you are going to throw a foil at grey knights... Don't try to do it with a space wolf army.

Hulksmash wrote:@Wintermann

While that range difference does matter I was basically showing that it isn't relevant since for objective missions they'd have to be on the move all game to achieve the win most of the time. Which mean that they'll spend the majority of their game w/in 24" of their opponent. It's not a GK vs. Loganwing game. It's a unit comparison on how they effectively function as an army against the current meta.

Glad other people are considering foot armies. I think they'll be the most fun and tactically exciting since they change the way the game is played.

As was asked earlier... yeah strike squads come with deep strike standard... If you aren't going to alter your force org with crowe or torquemada, and you don't want terminator troops. Then you probably need to be maximizing shooting and not CC with strike squads. they can only have one psycannon and they only have one attack... but that doesn't mean 'bad'. I do agree that if you try for a razorback build with an incinerator, then you should have gone with coteaz... and if you are trying to buff them up with falchions and quicksilver, then you should have gone with crowe.

I think 2x10 with psybolts and psycannons sounds right. Choosing to purchase some cc weapon upgrades should probably be specific to local meta. If DoA blood angels are very common, then halberds can make your units nearly unassailable. If you are facing down almost no CC at all, or horde CC primarily, then keeping them cheap and focusing on their storm bolters sounds pretty good.

Do i like crowe or coteaz better than a grand master right now? Maybe... I'd only skip crowe or coteaz if I was playing the shunt game... I'd also probably run at least one termie unit for the grand master. So I think ultimately it might not be so much that i think that they aren't "good". But that purifers, henchmen and terminators seem to come in front of them for me personally.

I dont know 15 hunters add 2 pf in two sqauds standard MOTW and sqaud leader for the same hurts.

SMDVogrin wrote:
Combat squads /= Combat Tactics

GKs can combat squad (split a 10 man squad into 2 5-man squads on deployment), not use Combat Tactics (choose to fail morale tests).

Thanks for that. I've been in fantasy for a while now and misremembered it.

Soooo....why would anybody ever play blue marines then? I'll just strip and paint mine pink or something and play whatever cheese comes out next. No point in being fluffy when GW makes the next marine army better than the last...

agnosto wrote:

SMDVogrin wrote:
Combat squads /= Combat Tactics

GKs can combat squad (split a 10 man squad into 2 5-man squads on deployment), not use Combat Tactics (choose to fail morale tests).

Thanks for that. I've been in fantasy for a while now and misremembered it.

Soooo....why would anybody ever play blue marines then? I'll just strip and paint mine pink or something and play whatever cheese comes out next. No point in being fluffy when GW makes the next marine army better than the last...

Because you don't feel like changing to what-ever the new Codex is? Whether or not it could be more powerful?

In all seriousness, the Marines Codex is both balanced and competitive. It is typically out-classed by Blood Angels and Space Wolves, but it's still not bad by any means.

Grey Knights are highly unlikely to be superior to Space Wolves and Blood Angels IMHO and Codex Marines only slightly so if at all. Codex: Space Marines basic troop doesn't cost 20pts each and they have access to several units that the GK don't. Yes, the Codex isn't perfect, but it's not like the Codex is uncompetitive or likely to be hugely out-classed by GK. One on one a GK should be - and is - superior. When you factor in the rest of the armies however, things change significantly IMHO.

Therion wrote:All I see is you changing your position every post and taking this thread more and more off topic. My guess to why someone brought up a variety of enemies is because you're supposed to be able to build a balanced force that is able to fight against all of them without any adaptation to your list

Emm, no. What I've seen is blanket assertions ("Stormravens suck, who's take them?" and "PAGKs are lame, and so expensive you can't do anything with them!") being disproven.

Yes, you can't fit the entire unit rosted in a 1500-200 list No ne ever implied that. But you can likely fit more than enough to require a very tailored army to fight you.

It's really not that complicated to fit two rifleman dreads with psy ammo, two squads of psy ammo 2xpsycannon troops, a Dreadknight, a librarian HQ and a Stormraven with assault troops within a 1500 list, especially if you don't bother with rhinos/razorbacks, as GKs have some interesting movement options.

Then again, I play CSM and I'm sort of used to pay for pricey units with extra abilitirs/stats that can be used for effect. And I think this is the case with GK, only more. I mean, show me any other unit that can pump 20 S5 shots at 30', insta-nuke a charging Tervigon in CC and/or chopping up TeQs with power weapons? It's like a cross between fire warriors, Wailing Banshees, and some new mass-force weapon squad hitherto unseen. Are they going to be A+ at all of them? Nope, but they are still quite good for their price. I'm still figuring out how to assualt them out of a raider, since with their range I likely can't get close enough to diesmbark troops into assault range without taking a dozen s5 hits and a few rending s7 rounds on my AV10 open-topped pleasure barge. Maybe jumping over a LOS-blocking piece of scenery? I'll figure it out.

Shep wrote:

Scout-shunting dreadknights... IDing TWC and laughing off missiles...

If you are going to throw a foil at grey knights... Don't try to do it with a space wolf army.

first, replying to people that hop into these threads to troll because dakka moderation is lacking is a losing effort.

But there's actually /alot/ you can do against "counters"
psycho-choke grenades are mega awesome, rad grenades are awesome, psi powers that make units assault through terrain pretty much negate any unit that doesn't have grenades, most back end shooting squads will get picked apart by interceptors very easily.

Hordes can be mowed down by cheap henchmen with rending jokaro stormbolters or hot shot lasguns

There are alot of tools, like what was said, in the codex. I feel that mech can be overcome, it wont be easy, but its doable.

Grundz wrote:

Shep wrote:

Scout-shunting dreadknights... IDing TWC and laughing off missiles...

If you are going to throw a foil at grey knights... Don't try to do it with a space wolf army.

first, replying to people that hop into these threads to troll because dakka moderation is lacking is a losing effort.

You want us to police for people writing bad tactical advice? Please don't be silly.

It took Shep four sentence fragments to respond to that argument, to the edification of onlookers. If a post (especially one made sincerely, which can be difficult to judge) offers bad advice, that should always be seen as a springboard for a better/educational response. The solution to bad advice is good advice. Not shutting down the bad advice. Especially when what constitutes good or bad advice can vary a bit depending on one's local play environment.

Mannahnin wrote:
You want us to police for people writing bad tactical advice? Please don't be silly.

No, I want you to police crap like:

Wulfenone wrote:

15 ML / Rune Priests/ TWC what more can I say......


Winning !

1: Stormravens=weak. What game are you playing when a dreadnought and 6 Force Weapon terminators in a complex squad are charging you from a vehicle that just had a 3+ Flat out cover save,l spat out enough firepower to open any vehicle in the game, pepper the unit it's charging with str4 then kill the crap out of it with Str5 Power/Force Weapons..possibly at initiative 10 with Grenades. Yea...that sucks....bad, I mean, wtf is that going to hurt. Might as well be running Ogryns. Duh. (Plus, have you read what this unit can do to YOUR psychic defense? I didnt think so)

2. Read the Dex. Psychic Communion. Know what you're talking about.

3. Better saves than a 2+/5++ in the Nid and Chaos Codex for MC's? Where pray tell? You right, poison is awesome against armour 2+. Meanwhile, while you're trying to drag down these 2+ save monsters with poison (you got one turn to do it by the way....they're faster than your DE) The rest of the army is knocking you out of the sky with basic infantry weapons. You know, the basic infantry that you're probably REALLY shooting at? B/C of the 3+ armour save and actual chance to kill something? You do know that the Grey Knight dex is pretty much OVERLOADED with stuff that kills DE right? Pick a good matchup next time. DE are anything but the rock to the Grey Knight scissors. Yea, DE just KILL GK's, cept for the fact they get bent over the fence with psychic powers the whole game....whats that? You can make me make a ld check or a guy out of each squad dies? GL getting to me and forcing me to make a ld 10 check. Meanwhile...I'll be shooting you out of the sky. (and I actually PLAY DE!)

4. Interceptors go down as easy to shooting as Grey Hunters. Wow, there's a news flash. Obvious much? More obvious for you, they're shootier by huge amounts, they come with some of the best HtH weapons in the game, and they're the fastest troopers in the game...without the aid of a transport. Yes, they're more expensive than Grey Hunters. I know its a big surprise to you, its this thing called "game balance".

5. 30, 36, or shunt + 24" ranges actually. Assault Weapons? I'd say that its pretty hard to stay away from that when you can command the middle of the playing feild with foottroopers w/o fear.

6.Again, read the codex, know what you're talking about. It's easier to appear smart that way. Psychic power-Summoning. Allows your Libby to teleport a unit (including certain vehicles) to within 6" of him. Oh "looky looky", Libbys can get Teleport Homers as standard equiptment. You think that might be useful? Hmmmm?

7: Bring your psychic hood....maybe you'll get lucky and stop half of my psychic powers...you know everything I have on the board casts them right? Oh, you brought a libby to hood my stuff? Lets see if the points you spent get you any psychic powers of your own. Probably not, considering MY psychic hood and Aegis. You see....Grey Knights RULE the psychic phase in this game. They're designed that way. Unfortunatly, you cannot hood my psybolts, psycannon, power weapons, shunts and all the other little toys that I've got.

....oh, wait a minute, nevermind. My Vindicare (buried behind my troops with a 2+ cover save that you can get if you look at the dex closely enough) Just picked out your offending psychic defence and killed him. He's lucky my Culuxes or shunting Dreadknight (owaitaminute they suck) got to him first.

No IC's worth a damn...tell that to the horde of Draigo Fans out there. Whatever he hits, he destroys. Even Rocky knows that. Meanwhile, who needs a named IC when I can bring a Generic....

WS-6
BS-6
Str-4
T-4
W-3
I-5
A-3
Ld-10
Sv-2+/4++

Who has a Str 5 force weapon in combat, (he's a level 2 you know) A Range 24" Str7 4 shot rending weapon at range, has a 2+ Invuln in close combat that doesnt go away after rolling a '1', Lowers your T by 1 when he charges you (after getting out of my Stormraven that you think sucks) and rr's one dice to hit and one dice to wound. He can't be bargained with, he can't be reasoned with. He'll find your IC, it's what he does, it's ALL he does! He'll find Mephiston/Dante/Ghazkull/whoever and rip his friggin' heart out!

...oh btw, he also makes d3 of my units scout, take objectives like troops, or RR all 1's to wound. HELL! Why bring 1 when you can bring 2 at twice the price? You're named IC's can't do that.

I've said it b4, I'll say it again, read the codex. Know what you're talking about.

1: Yes weak. If you put 800p worth of units in the trust of an AV12 vehicle and get away with that maybe you should try a little more quality opponents.
15p eldar runes or a 100p space pup libby will ruin your shrouded 800p stormchicken badly as will dark eldar shooting now since said flying chicken doesnt even get the BA S8 missiles anymore.

2: That´s basically another 150-250 points depending on wargear meaning if you add a libby for that chicken shrouding you´ll end up at 300-500p in HQ alone. Nice done in an already expensive GK army, now you have a communion HQ, a shrouding HQ, a stormraven full of stuff aaand, hmm, what else? lol

3: Agonizers care not for T6 and you cant shoot any dark eldar infantry since I am yet to see any builds without 9 banana boats that outrange your psycannons, you know the ones you need a grandmaster and a libby for 300-500p just to be able to land close to the boats, in enough numbers and protected to kill some transports with and then pray you can wither the rest.

4: Guess if you think a one attack, 3+ save 26 point non scoring (unless you pump another 150-250 points into the buiold) guy is good then good day to you.

5: Oh the massively outnumbered ones that go down in drowes to long range mech and longfang fire. Right you need libbies and communion HQs to mend that problem. Dunno bout you but I dont play with a thousand point advantage to be able to fit in all those things in my list besides the 600-800p fragile flying chickens and that magical counter to the all to common eldar 15p runes wargear.
I guess you could take a 280p interceptor squad and go hopping against eldrad who sits in his holo serpent but then again dont expect to win.

6: You sure are not doing a good job at that
first of all that libby needs to be in the right place before he can start summoning up that vehicle. No w wonder how many points that takes to ensure he is safely teleported in amongst the enemy lines and protected too before he can summon that landraider...
Now of you go and try be intelligent and ponder on that for a while while I laugh.

That 2++ vindicare needs terrain , a techmarine and a libby nearby so he´s no longer that "cheap" is he.
Besides is this the same libby that is deepstruck somewhere at the front busy summoning vehicles or is it the libby that is busy shrouding the flying chicken.
Wait, you get special discount on your libbies, you get three for the price of a half?
lol
What a joke.

7: Gee, I cant hood a psycannon shot, what a deep insight, what else is new, water being wet? *yawn*

(after getting out of my Stormraven that you think sucks)

Geezus. Was it the one shrouded by that omnipotent libby (and techmarine) that also summoned the communed troops to kill eldar boats or was it the one giving your cheap-O vindicare that 2+ save and doing it all despite being forced to Ld on 3D6 due to a 15p wargear? I dont remember, help me out some here

I give you points for at least having the decency of not trying to force feed people into believeing S5 stormbolters are worth taking on PAGKs or that the psilencer is a good choice.

Thanks for the laughs.
Looking forward to your next funny rant.

Pyriel- wrote:
I give you points for at least having the decency of not trying to force feed people into believeing S5 stormbolters are worth taking on PAGKs or that the psilencer is a good choice.

Unlike you, who have been going crazy "force feeding" this view onto people in at least three threads? I liked the part where you raged against the librarian being everywhere at the same time while your long fangs backed up by raiders killed everything... Guess what? Eldrad's Wave Serpent doesn't like getting shot at by TL Missilecannon dreadnoughts. Both Interceptor Squads and Dreadknights can get first turn charges with Grand Strategy. A scout-moved rhino or razorback can deploy psycannons in range of your precious "banana boats". Can you PLEASE stop the "GK sucks, I'm right and everyone who disagrees is wrong!" bullcrap? It's getting really annoying. We get it, you don't think the new Codex is that competitive, can you cut down on the vitriol?

Keep it cool, Swedes. Speaking as a person of Swedish descent, I would rather everyone regard you guys as paragons of Nordic composure and courtesy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grundz wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:You want us to police for people writing bad tactical advice? Please don't be silly.

No, I want you to police crap like:

Wulfenone wrote: 15 ML / Rune Priests/ TWC what more can I say......

It was a succinct and effective response to Samus_Aran's comment about thinking everything in the GK book is overpowered. When you put the GK stuff side by side with those three units from SW, it does throw one's review of how "broken" the GK actually are into rather sharp contrast.

But don't let me stop you from backseat Modding. Please, tell me more about how I can do my job better.

No, but seriously, we do appreciate feedback. I just think you're mistaken in this case. If you see other posts you think are violating Dakka rules/attempts to troll, please don't hesitate to hit the Alert Mod button on them. I do think it'd be a mistake to write it off as "dakka moderation is lacking" if we don't agree with you in every case, or take the exact action you think should be taken at any given moment. We certainly do make mistakes and miss stuff sometimes. The best way to help out with that is to use that Alert Moderator button and explain why you think the post is a problem in the little comment field.

Thanks!

Mannahnin wrote:But don't let me stop you from backseat Modding. Please, tell me more about how I can do my job better.

OOO,OOO Free ice-cream Day!

I have no idea how you would get it to us but that would certainly make most posters feel you are doing your job better!

I just snacked on half a pint of Stonyfield's "Gotta Have Java" organic coffee ice cream. If I could give everyone here (except the lactose-intolerant) a pint of that heavenly stuff, I would.

I think the 110 point 5 man 1 psycannon strike unit has a place as a cheap scoring unit to hold in reserve.




@Mannahnin
Mmmm coffee ice cream is the best.



As far as IC's go, I certainly think the 100 point make henchman troops SC is good.

Unlike you, who have been going crazy "force feeding" this view onto people in at least three threads? I liked the part where you raged against the librarian being everywhere at the same time while your long fangs backed up by raiders killed everything... Guess what? Eldrad's Wave Serpent doesn't like getting shot at by TL Missilecannon dreadnoughts.

Guess what:
Its really hard to down a holofield eldar skimmer, even if you get past the 4+ cover save. Good luck wasting dreadnought fire on it the whole game.
As for the other thread I give pretty detailed arguments to back my "opinion", how ´bout you?

Can you PLEASE stop the "GK sucks, I'm right and everyone who disagrees is wrong!" bullcrap? It's getting really annoying. We get it, you don't think the new Codex is that competitive, can you cut down on the vitriol?

Rally?
I´m just using the same "tone" like Deadshane1, he was condescending to me so I gave him his own medicine back. You cant take it then dont dish it out.
The funny thing is his ramblings and force feedings you have no problems with apparently, just mine.
hmm, oh here it is:

I agree with everything you said

Gee I wonder why one guys vitriol is ok while another´s is not.
Go be a hypocrite to someone else please.

Keep it cool, Swedes. Speaking as a person of Swedish descent, I would rather everyone regard you guys as paragons of Nordic composure and courtesy.

Will try to, just have the habit of giving back what I get and what I least of all like is hypocricy.
Otherwise we Swedes tend to be a withdrawn and shy bunch...believe it or not

I just snacked on half a pint of Stonyfield's "Gotta Have Java" organic coffee ice cream.

What...is...that? Coffe ice cream being my favorite (in bucket sized containers) me wonder if we have it over here too, hmm.

Deadshane can get a bit over the top, certainly. He's a nice guy, but goes overboard some. Definitely hit "Alert Moderator" if you see him get rude in a post.

Stonyfield is an organic yogurt/dairy company here in New Hampshire. Their admin office is in my city and their main plant in the next town over. They're available nationally here, but Google is failing me in an attempt to find them in Sweden. Sorry. :(

Deadshane can get a bit over the top, certainly. He's a nice guy, but goes overboard some. Definitely hit "Alert Moderator" if you see him get rude in a post.

Stonyfield is an organic yogurt/dairy company here in New Hampshire. Their admin office is in my city and their main plant in the next town over. They're available nationally here, but Google is failing me in an attempt to find them in Sweden. Sorry. :(

Nice guy huh? I like nice guys Good to know, I´ll ease up on angry retorts in the future.

Bummer on that ice cream, guess I´ll have to stick with ben and jerry here but those are far to little coffee for me:(
Thanks for the help though.

Bummer on that ice cream, guess I´ll have to stick with ben and jerry here but those are far to little coffee for me:(

Wouldn't mind one of these myself. I went on a holiday to Thailand this winter and once I found Black Canyon there I was hooked. Coffee + ice cream = win.




Those Grey Knight Strike squads would feel a lot better if I had some of that right now. Alas, I don't.

First the blood angels, then the tyranids, now the grey knights. Is GW trying to make this game way more lethal then it should be?

ie, 90 point doom of malantai.

Thanks, Pyriel. Yeah, he can get a little silly in debates sometimes (and I don't think he'd mind me saying so), but he gets a LOT silly drinking, and can be a lot of fun. If you ever make it stateside for Adepticon, definitely come drink with him, or me, or ideally both.

I never realized I would bond with the people of my forefathers' Scandinavian lands over coffee ice cream.

If you ever get the chance, defiitely try the Stonyfield. Their Greek-style yogurt, I hear, is also excellent, if you like that stuff. Back to ice cream, if you're ever in Boston, try getting to Toscanini's. Best ice cream I've ever had anywhere. One glorious summer in my college days I was dating a girl who worked there, and I'd drop her off there in the morning for work and break my fast with a mocha frappe made with espresso ice cream and vienna fudge chocolate ice cream.

Ben & Jerry's is good, but Stonyfield is better, and Toscanini's is decadence on a spoon.

Mannahnin wrote:Yeah, he can get a little silly in debates sometimes


Ben & Jerry's is good, but Stonyfield is better, and Toscanini's is decadence on a spoon.

Awwww...no you di-int!

Don't make me rant on for a half hour of typing.

Don't make me make you ban me for being a jackhole!

Nobody, I mean NOBODY will slight Ben and Jerry's Oh my, Apple Pie Ice cream. How dare you speak ill of the deceased!

Screw Gaming, this is Ice Cream...I WILL KILL YOU! (hope that's not to "hard" for j/k)


btw...this isnt going off topic is it? I mean, isnt Ice Cream always ON topic?

Overall it looks like a pretty balanced Codex.
There ARE a few gimickey builds, but thats the same with any Codex that can spam 3x one unit.

There will be a low model count, initially a very low count as alot of GK player will want to try out the different weapon options and upgrades. As with any new toy.

Now out of the multiple people who will be playing GK in my local area i will take 3 as an example.
1) This player will create a list, filled with shiny, point-ineffective units, as he does with every other army. It's fun for him to use units he likes, even if they are "bad" for their points.
2) This player will fill his list with 3x DK and most likely a SR full of pain. It's the type of play he is. When he did 1k salamanders he took 10x hammernators, when he did 1.5k BA he had Sanguinor/SR/DC/dreads. He will take the most individually hard to kill models and throw caution to the wind regarding model count.
3) This player will sit down, read the codex, and create a list that will work well against any army. Most likely it will be vastly different to the most popular net-lists and have an ability to do something random and unpredictable.

I know who i'll put my money on to win the majority of their games.
And it will not be any players who tools up on spamming DK or Paladins.

With the the large possibility of a low model count you will really have to sit down and take careful consideration over every unit that you take. Building a face-beating GK list will take skill, as any gimmick will get analised and taken apart after a game or three.

Pyriel- wrote:
Gee I wonder why one guys vitriol is ok while another´s is not.
Go be a hypocrite to someone else please.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, but your post came across as more rude to me.

Oh, and about the holofields: Wave Serpents don't get them.

@Walrus

Shhh.....You'll ruin the fun with facts!!!!

My mind has been blown after reading the arguments against grey knight strike forces.

/cry

Grey knight strike squads suck because they don't come with ice cream or caffeine!

Wouldn't mind one of these myself. I went on a holiday to Thailand this winter and once I found Black Canyon there I was hooked. Coffee + ice cream = win.

Aaah, I´m so going to make me one of those.

Thanks, Pyriel. Yeah, he can get a little silly in debates sometimes (and I don't think he'd mind me saying so), but he gets a LOT silly drinking, and can be a lot of fun. If you ever make it stateside for Adepticon, definitely come drink with him, or me, or ideally both.

One of my goals, I´ll be sure to email you when its due time. Be fun getting a breer and game with you guys.

I never realized I would bond with the people of my forefathers' Scandinavian lands over coffee ice cream.

Me neither since I absolutely h a t e coffee but love cofee ice cream
Weird...

Nobody, I mean NOBODY will slight Ben and Jerry's Oh my, Apple Pie Ice cream. How dare you speak ill of the deceased!

Ben and Jerry is the s**i for sure BUT (there is always a butt, besides I like butts too) there are better ice creams out there.

btw...this isnt going off topic is it? I mean, isnt Ice Cream always ON topic?

Anyone trying to mod a topic away from ice cream is in for some serious trouble...as am I for a serious board vacation most probably

3) This player will sit down, read the codex, and create a list that will work well against any army. Most likely it will be vastly different to the most popular net-lists and have an ability to do something random and unpredictable.

This one is for me. I tried some experiment builds and played of against dark eldar and space wolfs, the two armies that will pose the most problems for the GKs.
I must say I am starting to like orbital bombardments, they make life pesky for 9 out of 10 DE armies and GK shooting IF you build your army around getting it all within 24´at the same time is pretty good BUT and here is the real surprise, GK melee sucks ass.
They just cant handle stormshields.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, but your post came across as more rude to me.

Oh, and about the holofields: Wave Serpents don't get them.

Lets disagree then.
Other transports get holofields, Point is a 15p wargear that can whack the half the GK armies potential or even totally ruin a GK army that is based on and around libbies and that can be hidden in a transport is not what I call balance. It´s one humongous screwup by Ward!
it´s really not that hard to make an almost indestructible vehicle (for GKs) for an eldar army.

Think about it, a few of the very best and most fun GK builds will circle around 200-450p librarian HQs.
Is it to much to ask that this is not pretty much nerfed in its tracks by a 15p eldar wargear everybody takes and often even in multiples?

Seriously, letting such a big loophole through in a new codex is bordering on criminally PLEASE DON'T USE "slowed" AS A PEJORATIVE ON DAKA so yes, I´m in my full rights to be a tad upset at the guy that let that happen.

The one logical explanation to this crap could actually be that the GK codex was made with revised eldar in mind IF eldar will get a new codex in the "near" future and IF such idiotic wargears are already being decided to be hit with a nerf bat.
But alas, that is a long shot.

Grey knight strike squads suck because they don't come with ice cream or caffeine!

Ice cream mind you.

This is my thought on the GKSS, it might piss some people of but this is what I think and why.

GK strike squads dont suck at all or rather dont suck in the same way as SM tacs "dont" suck.
You say look, for 20p you get a power weapon and access to psycannons and for a crapload of more points you can make them into glorified assault squads will less attacks.

Then I say look at the SM tac squads, for a measly 16p you get BOTLERS and access to a cheap heavy weapon and the possibility to take a powerfist and combi bolter.
Truthfully now, on paper the SM tac looks to be extremely overpowered, you can spam these guys putting 6 tac squads into rhinos and all can shoot a powerful heavy weapon and all have bolters that massacre infantry at close and all have powerfists that make them melee effective.

Now in reality tacs s you c k, we all know it, we all build lists accordingly and nowhere have I seen or encountered an effective SM army that is built around 5-6 tacs.
The tac is used as a rather weak support unit to the real damage dealers like assault terminators, land raiders podded dreadnoughts etc.
The tac costs 200-ish points if kitted out to be truly all round but is worthless in each and every specific role vs any dedicated melee/shooty squad out there so no matter what you do the opponent can easily neutralize the tac squad.
It kills nothing in melee for what it costs, everyone and their kitchen sinks build armies that can eat 3+ saves for breakfast and bolters are only so good on a 16p model and I lost track of the amount of people complaining they have to take 2 tacs just to fill out troop slots.
But often is still shines in its supportive roles.

Look at the GK strike squad:
It is basically to SM what an SM tac squad is to other "individually weaker" races. More expensive, more versatile but oh so weak in anything it really tries to achieve vs dedicated units in other armies.
Staying power is even worse then SM tacs since your more expensive models go down just as easy and fast as space marines and you dont have the luxury of staying back like a tac since your 24 only range forces you to move forward.
The GK strike squad is the perfect support unit for the rest of the GK army, just as the SM tac is used a support squad for the SM army, it is to weak in melee to be used as melee workhorse (with only 1A and S5 half the times that can be neutered pretty easy by hoods, nid tyrants, eldar toys and what not) and to weak in shooting since it looses half its heavy fire if it moves and it h a s to move and keep moving to react to the enemy.

It is equally to weak in shooting to be relied on doing more damage then the enemies counterparts and needs to stand still if it wants to shine in shooting.
Even an SM tac squad outshoots the GK strike squad one on one not to mention point-to-point wise. If you want to even the scores you need to move and move a lot, rely on other units to shroud you etc all while the opponent can kill you from 36´with a 5p plasmacannon.

In a mixed army the GK strike squad is worth its weight in gold, it brings so much additional benefits to the GK army as a whole but like with the tac squad, basing an army of GK strike squads is suicide.

If you want to make an interceptor squad there goes 280p (or more) for a squad who´s primary role in game is to contest objectives on turn 6.
This means the squad needs to be as whole as possible on said turn and that means keeping in out of harms way for the whole game and/or using it carefully in supportive roles from afar in a way that will make the opponent not decimate them.
This in effect means you are playing with a 280p disadvantage (a squad you do not fully use/commit for 5 turns) for 5 turns for the advantage of IF it is strong enough to hold objectives, be able to shunt it on turn 6 to deny the enemy an objective.
Worth it?

Only making a strike squad and use it as a 280p assault squad that sucks in melee for what it costs (take 280p worth of blood claws and see what they can do in melee)
is not effective as the GKs have other means to get to melee with better melee units.

All in all each GK unit sucks in itself but in proper tandem usage with the correct units of other kinds the sum of all squad types becomes bigger then its parts.
The GKT squad sucks because it is so easy to DS near it and shoot it to death for example but if you have a strike squad nearby that weakness is negated etc and all of a sudden both the GKT and the GKSS squads are not sucking at all, they just became really good.

I´ll be very surprised in GK armies in the future actually work based on strike squads rather then a mixture of everything, the army is not designed to be a one-unit army like deathwing and I think that is unfortunate since I would absolutely love to be able to build competitive Greywing armies or strike squad hordes.
I hate being forced to take a little of this and that in order to get a functioning whole but that is just my personal taste.

Shhh.....You'll ruin the fun with facts!!!!

Those facts above enough for you?

Pyriel- wrote:Other transports get holofields, Point is a 15p wargear that can whack the half the GK armies potential or even totally ruin a GK army that is based on and around libbies and that can be hidden in a transport is not what I call balance. It´s one humongous screwup by Ward!
it´s really not that hard to make an almost indestructible vehicle (for GKs) for an eldar army.

THAT is something I can agree with!

Pyriel- wrote:
Even an SM tac squad outshoots the GK strike squad one on one not to mention point-to-point wise.

Just curious, how can they outshoot a GKSS one on one when the GKSS have storm bolters? If we're bringing specials into the calculation then the GKs would have psycannons, no?

Good post.

Pyriel, definitely PM or email if you're going to make it to Adepticon; or any big event in the Boston area/Northeast US, in my case, and we'll definitely get a beer or an ice cream. Or both. Toscanini's has Guinness-flavored ice cream.

Thanks Deadshane and everyone else for bonding over ice cream; even if he and I now have a blood feud over Ben & Jerry's vs. Stonyfield. Sigh. The sacrifices we make to keep the peace.

Pyriel- wrote:

Oh, and about the holofields: Wave Serpents don't get them.

Lets disagree then.
Other transports get holofields, Point is a 15p wargear that can whack the half the GK armies potential or even totally ruin a GK army that is based on and around libbies and that can be hidden in a transport is not what I call balance. It´s one humongous screwup by Ward!
it´s really not that hard to make an almost indestructible vehicle (for GKs) for an eldar army.

Think about it, a few of the very best and most fun GK builds will circle around 200-450p librarian HQs.
Is it to much to ask that this is not pretty much nerfed in its tracks by a 15p eldar wargear everybody takes and often even in multiples?

Seriously, letting such a big loophole through in a new codex is bordering on criminally PLEASE DON'T USE "slowed" AS A PEJORATIVE ON DAKA so yes, I´m in my full rights to be a tad upset at the guy that let that happen.

The one logical explanation to this crap could actually be that the GK codex was made with revised eldar in mind IF eldar will get a new codex in the "near" future and IF such idiotic wargears are already being decided to be hit with a nerf bat.

One would hope. But the Eldar actually have the same problem, and it's never been fixed. Much of the Eldar army is only good if Farseers can reliably get their powers off. And when the vast majority of SM-variant armies out there have hoods (or SW better-than-hoods), Eldar suffer badly. Heck, when Librarians became common, Eldar Seer Council lists went from a dominant army frequently seen at GT top tables, to virtually nonexistent. Because that expensive uber-unit is just too big a gamble and too vulnerabl if a hood is in the game.

shealyr wrote:

notabot187 wrote:I'm not really interested in how well GKs stack up to marines , I'm more interested in the DE and guard matchups, those look scary, while I think GKs can walk on most opposing Meq lists.

I really like this statement.

GK seems to be one of the first books that looks to perfectly counter MEQ books, but will struggle against a lot of Xenos.

I forsee Eldar, DE, IG, and to a lesser extent, Tau, all initially having a lot of success against GK. Yes, even against OMGTHIRTYINCHSCOUTINGDREADKNIGHTSSSSSS. The same tools people have been using to kill MC's will work against the Dreadknight: Plasma, Lascannons, Melta. It only has a 5+ invul and 4W, which means (GASP!) that it takes the exact same number of wounds to kill it as it does to kill a Trygon! Sure, it's more survivable against Krak Missiles, but in the end, fielding 3 Dreadknights means they aren't taking any S8 Riflemen Dreads or Land Raiders, which means Terminators are either walking, Deep Striking, or taking a Stormraven, none of which are a great option if a forth of your points are tied up in MC's downfield.

24" Psycannons are balanced, so get over it. If a Venom is dump enough to get within 24" of a Psycannon, it deserves to die. Simple as that.



Storm Bolters make Grey Knights good at something that doesn't even matter: anti-infantry at 12-12"... but when does that even come into play in Mech Edition 40k?

Yeah, Power Weapons all over the place (especially I6 Power Weapons) mean that Grey Knights are going to beat any non-dedicated close combat unit in assault, but their low model count means the opponent gets to be much more selective about when and where to engage GK's in close combat.

And, lastly, the HQ slot is extremely competitive. Taking Coteaz means you need to choose between a Librarian and a Grand Master. Taking both a Librarian and a Grand Master is insanely expensive, and suffer from both Deathstar Syndome and a lack of deployment options.

I believe that your wrong about the Stormraven in the GK codex, Your going to see more GK player fielding it, then BA players.

Just curious, how can they outshoot a GKSS one on one when the GKSS have storm bolters? If we're bringing specials into the calculation then the GKs would have psycannons, no?

Well a bolter kills about 1 GK while the GK stormbolters kill 2 marines at 12+ inches.
You have to realize something first, you balance units point-to-point so the 220p SSGKs will actually face of with 220p of SM tac.
That means a 200p powerfist and plasmacannon tac squad is 11 man strong and still the SSGK have a point advantage.

The 8 stormbolters vs the 8-9 bolters of the tac squad will down about 1 more marine per turn then the GKS themselves will loose, so far so good.
Then comes the issue of heavy weapons, that 5p plasmacannon eats 20p SSGKs for breakfast at 36´ while the SSGKs must spend turns even getting into 24 range to start using psycannons and even stormbolters.

In melee those 20pp SSGKs will kill about 2.5 marines each turn while the pf tac squad kills 2 SSGKs each turn.

The point is and has always been that the Tac as well as the SSGK are night worthless on their own but in working and supporting other things in the army they will be very powerful.
None of those units can be used as a workhorse since both melee and shooting power is very low, model cost high and staying power pathetic.

Pyriel, definitely PM or email if you're going to make it to Adepticon; or any big event in the Boston area/Northeast US, in my case, and we'll definitely get a beer or an ice cream. Or both. Toscanini's has Guinness-flavored ice cream.

I´ll keep that in mind but with my usual luck I wont be going for quite some time still.
On the contrary, if you ever get your behind to euroland or sweden you wont have to cash out for a hotel.

One would hope. But the Eldar actually have the same problem, and it's never been fixed. Much of the Eldar army is only good if Farseers can reliably get their powers off. And when the vast majority of SM-variant armies out there have hoods (or SW better-than-hoods), Eldar suffer badly. Heck, when Librarians became common, Eldar Seer Council lists went from a dominant army frequently seen at GT top tables, to virtually nonexistent. Because that expensive uber-unit is just too big a gamble and too vulnerabl if a hood is in the game.

Guess I didnt think of that one, the sword cuts both ways.
Still the eldar dont suffer nearly as much against a GK 150+ point 24´only ranged hood as the GK suffer from a 15p unlimited range eldar wargear.

I believe that your wrong about the Stormraven in the GK codex, Your going to see more GK player fielding it, then BA players.

I hope you are right, I just bought two of the buggers and am magnetizing their weapons.
I just cant see the SR being used in competitive play with all the runes and cheesy SW psychic hoods shutting down shrouding all over the place.

Pyriel- wrote:

Just curious, how can they outshoot a GKSS one on one when the GKSS have storm bolters? If we're bringing specials into the calculation then the GKs would have psycannons, no?

Well a bolter kills about 1 GK while the GK stormbolters kill 2 marines at 12+ inches.
You have to realize something first, you balance units point-to-point so the 220p SSGKs will actually face of with 220p of SM tac.
That means a 200p powerfist and plasmacannon tac squad is 11 man strong and still the SSGK have a point advantage.

The 8 stormbolters vs the 8-9 bolters of the tac squad will down about 1 more marine per turn then the GKS themselves will loose, so far so good.
Then comes the issue of heavy weapons, that 5p plasmacannon eats 20p SSGKs for breakfast at 36´ while the SSGKs must spend turns even getting into 24 range to start using psycannons and even stormbolters.

In melee those 20pp SSGKs will kill about 2.5 marines each turn while the pf tac squad kills 2 SSGKs each turn.

Yep, pretty much. The flipside of this, of course, is that the GKs can close the distance (usually in a Rhino) and start spraying the marines down. But the SM can do the same thing; and they're cheaper. Obviously unit vs. unit comparisons across different codices are inherently flawed, but the above concepts are illustrative. As you say, neither is a powerhouse unit. They're both a bit pricey for being all-rounders, and handicapped against a specialist unit.

That said, I do think they're viable, especially as other folks described using them earlier in the thread- with S5 and Psycannons. But you're still not going to want an army full of them.

Pyriel- wrote:

Pyriel, definitely PM or email if you're going to make it to Adepticon; or any big event in the Boston area/Northeast US, in my case, and we'll definitely get a beer or an ice cream. Or both. Toscanini's has Guinness-flavored ice cream.

I´ll keep that in mind but with my usual luck I wont be going for quite some time still.
On the contrary, if you ever get your behind to euroland or sweden you wont have to cash out for a hotel.

See, THIS is why Swedes are cool. The furthest North I've been in euroland is Amsterdam. There, England, and various parts of Eastern and Central Europe. No Northern Europe or Scandinavia yet, although that's GOT to eventually happen, as the wife is a huge metalhead, particularly into Norwegian and Finnish stuff (no slight on Sweden, of course).

Pyriel- wrote:

One would hope. But the Eldar actually have the same problem, and it's never been fixed. Much of the Eldar army is only good if Farseers can reliably get their powers off. And when the vast majority of SM-variant armies out there have hoods (or SW better-than-hoods), Eldar suffer badly. Heck, when Librarians became common, Eldar Seer Council lists went from a dominant army frequently seen at GT top tables, to virtually nonexistent. Because that expensive uber-unit is just too big a gamble and too vulnerabl if a hood is in the game.

Guess I didnt think of that one, the sword cuts both ways.
Still the eldar dont suffer nearly as much against a GK 150+ point 24´only ranged hood as the GK suffer from a 15p unlimited range eldar wargear.

That's true because Eldar players have pretty much abandoned the seer council as a competitive concept. I don't think the GK have to worry TOO much about Eldar, though, as their book is so outdated and they're such a tiny presence at tournaments nowadays, IME. We'll have to see what happens with Eldar eventually get updated. I just don't see it happening soon, as that's probably going to be another major Jes Goodwin resculpt project, and Tau and Necrons (at least) for xenos are almost certainly ahead of it in line.

Pyriel- wrote:

I believe that your wrong about the Stormraven in the GK codex, Your going to see more GK player fielding it, then BA players.

I hope you are right, I just bought two of the buggers and am magnetizing their weapons.
I just cant see the SR being used in competitive play with all the runes and cheesy SW psychic hoods shutting down shrouding all over the place.

Bear in mind that BA use it without Shrouding. The preferred tactic is usually just to Reserve it if you're not going first, then (if the enemy stays outside assault distance from your table edge) jet it 24" onto the table, preferably on a side away from the opponent's higher concentration of guns; so the enemy only gets one turn of shooting at it before it delivers the assault cargo. And it has a 4+ skimmers moving fast cover save on that turn. I don't know how much GK are going to use it, though, as their stuff is pricier overall, and they don't have a dreadnought with blood claws as such an ideal thing to deliver using the SR.

I think the decision between the GK HQ's is an interesting one. It's hard for me to see myself ever choosing a Grand Master over Coteaz or a Librarian in 1750 points games simply because the HQ slot becomes too expensive then. Between Coteaz and the Librarian, my instinct would make me go with the former because GK Dreads already provide a -4 LD anti-psychic bubble so the psychic hood isn't as necessary and the shrouding despite the hubbub here is still only a 16% increase to the saves of the vehicles. It's a good bonus, but considering the Librarian's enormous price tag, does it outweigh Coteaz' mystic rule and re-roll to seize the initiative and infinite scoring henchmen? I don't think so, but it's probably not a complete point sink either.

Yep. I agree. Although I suspect that "infinite" scoring henchmen are going to turn into 2-6 Henchmen when they become Troops. They're still a heck of a bargain, though.

That said, I do think they're viable, especially as other folks described using them earlier in the thread- with S5 and Psycannons. But you're still not going to want an army full of them.

Oh yes, they are very powerful but only as a support element and denier of deepstrike.

Practically speaking none of their upgrades like halbeards, falchions etc are worth taking and we will never, ever see a falchion equipped strike squad in tournament play, ever.
Which begs the point of why Ward even included the options of falchions for this squad.
Its like including options for stormbolters for tactical marines and price them at 15p each. No one will ever take them so why is that wargear even there in the first place?

GK Dreads already provide a -4 LD anti-psychic bubble so the psychic hood isn't as necessary

Well it only protects from powers directly aimed at the GK units.
The GK psycher shut down toys are global.

That said, I do think they're viable, especially as other folks described using them earlier in the thread- with S5 and Psycannons. But you're still not going to want an army full of them.

This is another funny thing that I dont understand why people are so excited about, the S5 stormbolters.
They are not that good and I hardly think they are worth 2.5 points per model on an already expensive model.

Think about it for a second.
You pay 20p to give one squad S5 stormbolters meaning small terminator squads are not an option as are small PAGK squads.
Now the standard and most point effective shooty loadout for a SSGK is 8 stormbolters and 2 psycannons. Psycannons dont care about the S5 so you´ll end up paying 20p to give 8 knights S5 stormbolters, that´s 2.5p per model.

Now as your squad takes casulties (and it will) those models will dwindle in number making the upgrade cost more and more relatively.
So on the first turn, when your SSGK squad is full and healthy (only then) those S6 stormbolters will kill an average of 8.8p more space marines and this number will decrease every time your SSGKs take casulties.

You just paid 20p to kill 8.8p worth of SM opponents if and only if you didnt take casulties before and this works only in shooting so every turn you are in melee with those "awesome" force weapons (you know, where you really want to be) you are wasting S5 stormbolter points.

Hardly overpowered anymore, hardly powerful at all in fact.


How bout orks and such then, well you pay 20p to waste 10p worth of ork infantry IF they dont have cover but why would you want to do that when your purifyer melee is designed specifically to waste orks in the first place?

Still think the S5 stormbolter is worth taking?


So how about against vehicles?
If you think wasting vehicles by shooting bolters at them for that odd chance to get a glance then you will not win much.


Against dark eldar, sure those S5 stormbolters would be awesoem but then it makes this wargear a highly specialize one and as such worthless in competitive environments.

Having S5 stormbolters at 10 or 15p per squad would actually be balanced but the "sound" of that, S5 stormbolters for 10p per squad "sounds" so insanely overpowered everybody would scream and moan but look above and read it all over, they dont really seem worth the 20p price tag when you really think it through.

See, THIS is why Swedes are cool. The furthest North I've been in euroland is Amsterdam. There, England, and various parts of Eastern and Central Europe. No Northern Europe or Scandinavia yet, although that's GOT to eventually happen, as the wife is a huge metalhead, particularly into Norwegian and Finnish stuff (no slight on Sweden, of course).

Oh, norwegian death metal is really a standing joke here in sweden

Bear in mind that BA use it without Shrouding.

sure since the BA eggs inside the BA stormraven cost less then the GK ditto and since the BA stormraven can actually shoot S8 missiles and carry a melee dreadnought that can actually melee whereas the GK dreadnoughts can only shoot autocannons or stay back hidden to protect against lashes.

Pyriel- wrote:
This is another funny thing that I dont understand why people are so excited about, the S5 stormbolters.
They are not that good and I hardly think they are worth 2.5 points per model on an already expensive model.

Think about it for a second.
You pay 20p to give one squad S5 stormbolters meaning small terminator squads are not an option as are small PAGK squads.
Now the standard and most point effective shooty loadout for a SSGK is 8 stormbolters and 2 psycannons. Psycannons dont care about the S5 so you´ll end up paying 20p to give 8 knights S5 stormbolters, that´s 2.5p per model.

Now as your squad takes casulties (and it will) those models will dwindle in number making the upgrade cost more and more relatively.
So on the first turn, when your SSGK squad is full and healthy (only then) those S6 stormbolters will kill an average of 8.8p more space marines and this number will decrease every time your SSGKs take casulties.

You just paid 20p to kill 8.8p worth of SM opponents if and only if you didnt take casulties before and this works only in shooting so every turn you are in melee with those "awesome" force weapons (you know, where you really want to be) you are wasting S5 stormbolter points.

Hardly overpowered anymore, hardly powerful at all in fact.


How bout orks and such then, well you pay 20p to waste 10p worth of ork infantry IF they dont have cover but why would you want to do that when your purifyer melee is designed specifically to waste orks in the first place?

Still think the S5 stormbolter is worth taking?


So how about against vehicles?
If you think wasting vehicles by shooting bolters at them for that odd chance to get a glance then you will not win much.


Against dark eldar, sure those S5 stormbolters would be awesoem but then it makes this wargear a highly specialize one and as such worthless in competitive environments.

Having S5 stormbolters at 10 or 15p per squad would actually be balanced but the "sound" of that, S5 stormbolters for 10p per squad "sounds" so insanely overpowered everybody would scream and moan but look above and read it all over, they dont really seem worth the 20p price tag when you really think it through.

Honestly I think your assessment of the value of that +1 str is off. 2.5 ppm really is a good deal to start glancing razorbacks and rhinos or side armor on things like predators when only having 2 psycannons really is by no means a guaranteed threat against AV11 but being able to further suppress movement and shooting against yourself certainly has value and I think it's worth more than what you're actually paying. I do think however the more CC oriented upgrades should be largely shunned unless with a very specific purpose in mind but more rolls on the chart are certainly better than less and with a little point shaving here and there to work it in.

I think this will be more especially true when we see walking versions or I suppose I should say foot based versions of GKs. Is psy ammunition an "always" upgrade? Certainly not but, I think it will find a home in many competitive lists.

Honestly I think your assessment of the value of that +1 str is off. 2.5 ppm really is a good deal to start glancing razorbacks and rhinos or side armor on things like predators when only having 2 psycannons really is by no means a guaranteed threat against AV11 but being able to further suppress movement and shooting against yourself certainly has value and I think it's worth more than what you're actually paying.

I´m sure there will be some builds that more or less rely on added S5 fire but those imo will be specifically tailored to take full advantage of the S5 (no CC builds in particular I think).

S5 is excellent. It's wounding T3 infantry on a 2+, or T4 on a 3+. At 2.5pppm, you're buying a 16.16% greater wound rate against non-vehicle models for at 12.5% increase in cost.

You're also getting a 100% increase in damage against AV10 (Raiders, Landspeeders, Chimera side armor, Ork buggies, the occasional Trukk or other odd unit. Getting a non-zero chance of Penetrating hits.

Oh, norwegian death metal is really a standing joke here in sweden.

That's not it. Are you into metal at all? If not, no biggie. I'm into some of it, but not as much as she is.

S5 is excellent. It's wounding T3 infantry on a 2+, or T4 on a 3+. At 2.5pppm, you're buying a 16.16% greater wound rate against non-vehicle models for at 12.5% increase in cost.

You're also getting a 100% increase in damage against AV10 (Raiders, Landspeeders, Chimera side armor, Ork buggies, the occasional Trukk or other odd unit. Getting a non-zero chance of Penetrating hits.

I´d say anti vehicle shooting is the one and only reason to ever take S5. It doesnt matter if it is T3 or T4, you simply kill to little infantry points with that S5 stormbolter over an S4 to be worth taking it.
But as you say, landspeeders and whole dark eldar armies will feel the S5 but then again this makes it a rather to specialized wargear.

That's not it. Are you into metal at all? If not, no biggie. I'm into some of it, but not as much as she is.

Just a little, mostly rock and grunge metal. I have a really hard time liking growl and death metal myself.

The new rules for power armored greyknights remind me alot of noise marines with sonic blasters.

But, the noise marines are better in most respects. A better special weapon, the ability to do heavy 3 rather than just assault 2, fearless (good and bad), a champion with powerfist/ good amount of wargear options, and each marine has 2 attacks with out charging(sonic blaster, bolt pistol, ccw).

You do not see anyone using mass amounts of noise marines, and you won't see lots of power armored greyknights for the same reasons.

Pyriel, Pyriel, Pyriel...it is such an HONOR to participate to a thread only because of you...

I do not intend to lead argument with you as I do not intend to read your double A4 sized response - take it like a good advice from a smart boy.

You are acting very annoyingly, arrogantly urging your only truth with absurd lack in theory and empiric experience. Your responses are offending, your autoconsideration of your own truth is amusing and your mastery in passive agression is respectable. You are treating anyone who disagrees in any measure like masters treats disobedient animals - but you know which do you remind me of? Squeaky pig in a slaughterhouse few seconds before it is beheaded, expending maximal effort to draw attention of Big Pig god which will then descent and save it from certain dead...

One example for all - Holofields

After your classical theatre performance showing your transcendent knowledge and intellect, it is shown that you have no idea that dedicated transports in Codex Eldar cannot take holofields - how do you react after such an epic screwship? By another prolonged post featuring - lets disagree here!

What do you say next? That there are plenty of other transports. Falcon has transport capacity, but it takes heavy support slot and its rather meh compared to Fire Prisms and Warwalkers - do you know that such a unit at least exist in an Eldar Codex? So do you suggest that Eldar should not waste heavy support slots on prisms and walkers to go three expensive falcons able to transports 18 infantry models? Not mentionning the fact they are gunships able to hold objective with 5 avengers inside, not transports. What do you say next? That ALL those plentifull eldar dedicated transports can take holofields for 15 points? You know holofields are far from 15 point cost.

You would have found that out if you spent 2 minutes looking into an actual Eldar codex, instead of wasting hours for typing your poseur narcistic messages - but to have truth is not your goal isnt it? You just want to wreak havoc and overtop the others no matter the cost.

You know very rarely you can say that someone is completely wrong. Almost always there is at least some truth in any statement. But in yours? You just type walls of text trying to offend everyone showing opposition without ANY knowledge. You do not even know how several year old codex works and you claim vast knowledge of actually still NOT released codex.

Let me summarize then :" You are wrong Pyriel. Completely. Waste another hour of hateful typing instead of actually learning anything or gaining any experience."

Sorry for the offtopic, hope it helps a bit...

You are acting very annoyingly, arrogantly urging your only truth with absurd lack in theory and empiric experience. Your responses are offending, your autoconsideration of your own truth is amusing and your mastery in passive agression is respectable. You are treating anyone who disagrees in any measure like masters treats disobedient animals - but you know which do you remind me of? Squeaky pig in a slaughterhouse few seconds before it is beheaded, expending maximal effort to draw attention of Big Pig god which will then descent and save it from certain dead...

That week of the month eh?

You have my sympathy.

Jolrael wrote:*more text than I can be bothered quoting

While I do agree that Pyriel is a bit pushy, the views themselves are valid and thought-through, except the example with the holo-field. Cut the man/woman/it some slack when it comes to the validity of the views expressed.

Pyriel- wrote:
That week of the month eh?

You have my sympathy.

You DO realize that there's a reason that people become upset with you, right?

While I do agree that Pyriel is a bit pushy, the views themselves are valid and thought-through, except the example with the holo-field. Cut the man/woman/it some slack when it comes to the validity of the views expressed.

By all means, let it continue with its own walls of offensive text, I havent had such a good laugh for weeks, bad side being messing up the k-board with my breakfast milk.

You DO realize that there's a reason that people become upset with you, right?

However you do realize that when some self righteous holier-then-thou besserwisser calls you a pig in a slaughterhouse, calling me out on being insulting is kind of hypocritical?

Personally I find it rather amusing that there are people out there like our Czech friend here, who try really hard to be witty, insightful and intelligent when telling everyone how bad I am and how badly I insult people with my oh so obnoxious hate walls of text...all while writing such hate, abuse and insults themselves that would lead them to get an instant vacation on other boards.
Points for being the biggest hypocrite of the entire dakka community Jolrael.


And yes I do realize some people cant take me because of my personality. Bashing stupidity and bashing back bullies is one of my most noticable downsides...as well as also my biggest strength.

Here, have another example:

Let me summarize then :" You are wrong Pyriel. Completely. Waste another hour of hateful typing instead of actually learning anything or gaining any experience."

Sorry for the offtopic, hope it helps a bit...

Offensive, intrusive and insulting BUT at the same time oh so "helpful" and "sorry". I dont even know weather to laugh or cry and that´s a bad sign.

Wow, a sensitive Czech?!?! Where did you escape from, a zoo for endangered species?
Of you go and do something useful instead like helping fix the almost non existent road system in your country instead of being all self righteous, analytical,"helpful" and "sorry" on the internet.

Several warnings just sent.

There's no need for the level of rudeness displayed in this thread, if it continues this thread won't.

Do better people.

@ shep

Scout-shunting dreadknights... IDing TWC and laughing off missiles...

If you are going to throw a foil at grey knights... Don't try to do it with a space wolf army.


But twc can win and you can get melat ed or not get the charge cause their behind a rhino And have storm shields and my space wolves have 14 lascannons zap zap

davidson wrote:The new rules for power armored greyknights remind me alot of noise marines with sonic blasters.

But, the noise marines are better in most respects. A better special weapon, the ability to do heavy 3 rather than just assault 2, fearless (good and bad), a champion with powerfist/ good amount of wargear options, and each marine has 2 attacks with out charging(sonic blaster, bolt pistol, ccw).

You do not see anyone using mass amounts of noise marines, and you won't see lots of power armored greyknights for the same reasons.

I also thought of Emperor's Children when I saw the rules! however, there are differences.

Noise marines have to buy each sonic blaster (a crap rule IMO), so they get quite expensive. I think the math of having S5 assault 2 and S4 Heavy 3 (stationary sonic blasters) must add up to being about the same, too. However, the psycannon is quite better than the Blastmaster, and cheaper.

Noise Marines will have more attacks in CC, but depending on what they fight, armor will neutralize the extra hits. Not an issue with GK. There's also the squad psyker power, which is a big factor.

So oddly enough, the PAGK squad feels a bit like a more general-purpose, take-all comers unit of noise marines, plus force weapons and a psyker. But it packs more goodies in a similar cost.

P.S - I quite like noise marines, actually. Blasting a doom siren before an I 5 charge is quite exhilarating, and in 2k+ games you'd be surprised at how many enemies ignore them and obsesses over plagues and zerkers, leaving them free to do their death metal deeds.

It doesn't suck, it's actually not a bad tactic

davidson wrote:The new rules for power armored greyknights remind me alot of noise marines with sonic blasters.

But, the noise marines are better in most respects.

A fair comparison except GKSS are a proper 5ed unit and outclass them.

"A better special weapon" -- GKSS have a better selection of heavy in my opinion. Option of 2 psycannons at 20 vs no more then one blastmaster for 40 whopping points.

"the ability to do heavy 3 rather than just assault 2," I'd take S5 A2 over S4 H3/A2. Especially considering the cost of the sonic blaster.

"fearless (good and bad)." For the most part ATSKNF at ld9 is better for a more shooty oriented unit imo but its a fair point that fearless has its good also.

"a champion with powerfist/ good amount of wargear options" Any GKSS can take a thunderhammer for a mere 10 points -- including the base 2 attack justicar that can also mastercraft his for 5 points. Plus the noise champ is 15 extra points! Justicar is free. I will concede the Doom Siren is a cool upgrade but it costs quite a bit considering champ cost.

"and each marine has 2 attacks with out charging(sonic blaster, bolt pistol, ccw)." Only better if facing low armor units (assuming no hammerhand GKSS kills 1/4 MEq per model w/o charging, Noisemarine kills 1/6 MEq). You didn't mention I5, which is a pretty handy boost also, but also didn't take hammerhand into account either.

"You do not see anyone using mass amounts of noise marines, and you won't see lots of power armored greyknights for the same reasons."
I think that's pretty bad string of logic and conclusion. You skip over all the other stuff GKSS get that noise marines do not (psychout grenades, deepstrike, hammerhand, warp quake, the aegis). Also GKSS are not competing with plaguemarines or bezerkers (who are quite a bit more points efficient compared to noisemarines), and while there are some very tempting alternates in GK troop section, they have their flaws and/or HQ reqs as well.

But the real decider here as far as whick unit will be popular is independent of rules -- proper noise marine bits are metal and expensive and aren't even on a store shelf. GKSS have a shiney new plastic kit that has all the options you'd want to take (could be better but its still quite packed with goodies).

There is definitely some good theoretical discussion going on in here. And the points that can be made on the theory side are valid. But it was really helpful for me to get a game in against my own IG list.

I had somnicide come by on his way home from work, and I ran a foot strike squad list with paladins backed up by three psyflemans. It was very useful to get that humbling reminder that if you aren't cavalry, and you don't have a storm shield, then you have no business being unmounted within 12" of a wall of special weapon loaded chimeras. I took the near-tabling very poorly at first, but it was useful to know that grey knights aren't going to be able to re-invent 40k. The same basic tenets apply to them as to all marines in terms of competitive play.

I know that strike squad advocates didn't say "run them on foot it'll be cool" but just for some of the followers of this thread, unless you are an interceptor squad, or a purgation squad/purifier mini-dev squad with 4 psycannons... A transport vehicle is damn near required for competitive play.

Looking at the strike squad under that scrutiny, they are still quite good at doing the job that most marines ask of their troops.

For only ten points more than a 5x grey hunter unit in an assault cannon razorback, you can get this unit.

5x strike squad 1x psycannon rhino.

The two units are quite close in the quality of what they deliver. If the grey hunter razorback moves or remains stationary, it can shoot 4 strength 6 shots to 24". If the grey knight rhino moves it gets two strength 7 shots but if it stays still it gets 4. Also please factor in fortitude, which is at least as useful as you have all been thinking, from my three game experiences...

4 of the 5 grey knights in that little unit have power weapons, and they have the ability to quite easily become strength 5. I feel those two combine to be at least as useful as counter-attack and a free flamer.

And lastly, you get warp quake. It won't come up very often at all, but when it does, if you built your army around shooting, then boy are deep strike armies going to be pissed.

Just like with grey hunters, you can load up the strike squad all day with more and more goodies, trinkets, gee-gaws etc. But the 160 point unit I just outlined I think is as good if not better than the VERY popular grey hunter razorback package that I see ad infinitum at tourneys.

And once you all start seeing the psyfleman dreadnought in action and realize that it yields as much anti-tank as a long fang unit, and that fortitude makes it measurably more difficult to silence than a regular shooty vehicle... then a vehicle based gunline, where warp quake would be excellent defense, starts to emerge.

I think my biggest irritation so far with the book is that outside of the inquisitors, you can't really get a character that can easily get tucked away into a transport. You've got terminator armor librarians and grand masters, and castellan crowe who would need to steal someone else's transport in order to move freely.

Edit: Reading fail....

Pyriel- wrote:Those facts above enough for you?

PLEASE DON'T BLOCK QUOTE AN ENORMOUS POST JUST TO APPEND A ONE LINE REPLY WHICH ADDS NOTHING TO THE THREAD. IT'S A WASTE OF SPACE AND INTERRUPTS THE THREAD FOR EVERYONE READING.

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My eyes bled when i read that

rovian wrote:@ shep

Scout-shunting dreadknights... IDing TWC and laughing off missiles...

If you are going to throw a foil at grey knights... Don't try to do it with a space wolf army.


But twc can win and you can get melat ed or not get the charge cause their behind a rhino And have storm shields and my space wolves have 14 lascannons zap zap

And the DK moves like JI with the teleporter... and the rhino might blow up... and I might roll all 6's when rolling to hit, to wound and when to save. Your point is? The Dreadknight STILL laughs off the two most common "power" units in the SW Codex, namely TWC and Long Fang spam. I don't know about you, but I usually don't see 14 lascannons in a SW list...

I fell for the trolling the first time....

But you fell for it this time Walrus.

I'm fairly sure this guy isn't being serious. The Octuple dakka emote mid-sentence kinda tipped me off

Shep wrote:I fell for the trolling the first time....

But you fell for it this time Walrus.

I'm fairly sure this guy isn't being serious. The Octuple dakka emote mid-sentence kinda tipped me off

Meh, guess I'm to guillible. That's what I get for being a smartypants >.<

Well mine does but I was making a subtle prod at OP as he was all like well now i have this and this and this and this
heheheheh and octuple emote was to lessen the tension before we talked about coffe for a page but I respect you both just saying TWC can take a couple with stormshields and such and shep is fairly right the 14 cannons was recounted its actually 11 and 13 missile launcher with priests and two thunder lords

@Shep

I disagree w/your assertion that PAGK don't belong on foot w/out transports. I managed to make a fair run (only fair based on several mistakes on both our parts) at a 8 Venom, 3 Ravager, 1 Raider w/some CC support list w/an all foot GK list. It's how you build the list though. I think a pretty much pure PAGK foot list supported by 2-3 AC Dreads are going to be nasty. YMMV

To be honest Grey knight strike force is now one of the most cost effective units in the game right underneath Grey hunter packs. To say that they suck because they have 1 attack is 100% wrong,.

I wouldn't say they suck, but they're not particularly good.

The problem is that even though they're cost effective, they're not effective in the right places (unlike Grey Hunters).

Posting this in two threads to get as many suggestions (or corrections) as possible in this little time so sorry for double post:

Am going to have a game in an hour and will do a batrep of it to show you.
Its GKs vs SM.

So if you have any particular wishes of what to try out in the game you have one hour to affect my build choice.

1500 points.

GK:
Librarian - 175p
Quickening
Shrouding
Might of titan
that flame template power I dont remember its name
summoningl

SSGK - 265p
2 Psycannons
Rhino

SSGK - 265p
2 Psycannons
Rhino

Purifyers - 305p
2 incinerators
10 Halbeards
Rhino

Techmarine - 89p
3 servo skulls

Rifleman dreadnought - 135p

Rifleman dreadnought - 135p

Rifleman dreadnought - 135p

1504p




Salamanders:

Vulkan

10 SS/TH terminators

2 speedeers MM/HF

1 speeder MM/HF

1 Attackbike MM

Tac squad 230
ML, combimelta, meltagun
Pod, locator beacon

Tac squad 230
ML, combimelta, meltagun
Pod, locator beacon

Tac squad 225
ML, combiflamer, flamer
Pod, locator beacon

1505p

So if you want me to add somethingor correct a point cost etc last second let me know and I´ll think about it.
I´ll make a second batrep using something else tomorrow. You can affect builds I and my friend will use.
The options are:
GK
SW
SM
Infantry heavy orks (only bikes boys of all kinds and choppers available)


If anyone out there really want to see a batrep on GK vs infantry orks just throw in some build suggestions as I think orks are real underdogs. Lets build a GK crushing infantry ork army and I´ll consider using it vs GK tomorrow (1850p limit).

The libby power is called Warp Rift.

You bought 2 extra Halberds for your Purifiers, as the incinerators take both weapons.

Techmarines cost 90 points now instead of 80.

Servo skulls don't help your list at all, btw. I'm not sure if it was supposed to be list tailoring against his pods/DS, but from what I have read about them in the actual codex, they do not affect enemy deep striking, only your own deep striking and blasts and your opponents infiltrating and scout moves (cannot setup up infiltrators within 12" and cannot scout move withing 12" of them (meaning they can't even pass them). They are destroyed if any enemy unit moves to within 6" of them.


Anyway, just wanted to throw that out there for you.


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Oh, yeah, it would help summoning I guess.

Ah, thanks.



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Done.
Most fun I had during a game of 40k for a long time.

Fafnir wrote:I wouldn't say they suck, but they're not particularly good.

The problem is that even though they're cost effective, they're not effective in the right places (unlike Grey Hunters).

What exactly do you think theyre not effective at?

Mannahnin wrote:

Grundz wrote:

Shep wrote:

Scout-shunting dreadknights... IDing TWC and laughing off missiles...

If you are going to throw a foil at grey knights... Don't try to do it with a space wolf army.

first, replying to people that hop into these threads to troll because dakka moderation is lacking is a losing effort.

You want us to police for people writing bad tactical advice? Please don't be silly.

It took Shep four sentence fragments to respond to that argument, to the edification of onlookers. If a post (especially one made sincerely, which can be difficult to judge) offers bad advice, that should always be seen as a springboard for a better/educational response. The solution to bad advice is good advice. Not shutting down the bad advice. Especially when what constitutes good or bad advice can vary a bit depending on one's local play environment.

qft

I agree completely - don't look at bad advice as a negative - use it as a catalyst to spur intelligent analysis of the bad advice and alternative, good advice.

The fellow (therion?) that is naysaying everything is clearly ignorant as to how GK really work, but thinks he knows. Hell, they are overpriced silver marines, right? Right??Should he be banned? To the contrary, his posts give the experienced GK players the ability to point out the flaws in his argument and give real advice relevent to the codex.

I will be foot slogging, as I have all through 5th. The difference will be me winning the vast majority of my games instead of half.

I leafed through my BA codex and added up that upgrading a normal tac marine with a Power Weapon and a Storm bolter came out to a 34 point model. Add in extremely useful psychic powers and that those power weapons are force weapons, and there is little ground to say that they suck. They may not be the style of play you like, but they are an extreme bargain for their points.

I have been running foot slogging well everything since 5th because I dont want to buy the transport models. I have to say foot lists arent nearly as bad as everyone says they are anyway. Usually people will come to you assuming they can drive circles around you, if you need to go get their object well thats what scout/teleporters/lr/stormraven is for. Foot lists get cover easier and if played smartly can generally only be shot by one or two of the opposing players units. I have found in an army with already expensive models omitting the nice but expensive transports allows for another entire squad.

Inigo Montoya wrote:

Mannahnin wrote: The solution to bad advice is good advice. Not shutting down the bad advice. Especially when what constitutes good or bad advice can vary a bit depending on one's local play environment.

qft

I agree completely - don't look at bad advice as a negative - use it as a catalyst to spur intelligent analysis of the bad advice and alternative, good advice.

The fellow (therion?) that is naysaying everything is clearly ignorant as to how GK really work, but thinks he knows. Hell, they are overpriced silver marines, right? Right??Should he be banned? To the contrary, his posts give the experienced GK players the ability to point out the flaws in his argument and give real advice relevent to the codex.

I will be foot slogging, as I have all through 5th. The difference will be me winning the vast majority of my games instead of half.

Thanks! I don't think it's Therion you're thinking of, though. He thinks GK are good. Though he does play in an extremely optimized and competitive area, which means his views on units and builds are a little different and coming from a slightly different context than many of ours.

Zonder wrote:I have been running foot slogging well everything since 5th because I dont want to buy the transport models. I have to say foot lists arent nearly as bad as everyone says they are anyway. Usually people will come to you assuming they can drive circles around you, if you need to go get their object well thats what scout/teleporters/lr/stormraven is for. Foot lists get cover easier and if played smartly can generally only be shot by one or two of the opposing players units. I have found in an army with already expensive models omitting the nice but expensive transports allows for another entire squad.

Try not to play missile spam space wolves. They can give foot slogging lists a really good shellacking. Unless they are all terminators that is.

rovian wrote:@ shep

Scout-shunting dreadknights... IDing TWC and laughing off missiles...

If you are going to throw a foil at grey knights... Don't try to do it with a space wolf army.


But twc can win and you can get melat ed or not get the charge cause their behind a rhino And have storm shields and my space wolves have 14 lascannons zap zap

You're going to shoot a melta at it and... maybe do 1 wound? The 30" shunt can take it clear of the Rhino when you combine it with a 6" move followed by a 6" charge. 14 Lascannons is a ton of them, but you don't see that often at all because it costs a veritable mountain of points. Not to mention there will probably be 2-3 Dreadknights going for the shunt/charge on turn 1 if it is going to happen at all.

Caffran9 wrote:

But twc can win and you can get melat ed or not get the charge cause their behind a rhino And have storm shields and my space wolves have 14 lascannons zap zap

You're going to shoot a melta at it and... maybe do 1 wound? The 30" shunt can take it clear of the Rhino when you combine it with a 6" move followed by a 6" charge.

No it can't. The Scout move can't come within 12" of an enemy model. So the Shunt move gets you 12.1" away, and then your move + assault still doesn't clear or even reach the rhino. If you move as Jump Infantry you can reach the Rhino, but not clear it. As long as the opponent is what, 4"(?) behind their Rhinos, you can't assault them turn 1.

Caffran9 wrote:14 Lascannons is a ton of them, but you don't see that often at all because it costs a veritable mountain of points. Not to mention there will probably be 2-3 Dreadknights going for the shunt/charge on turn 1 if it is going to happen at all.

Agreed about the lascannons.

Trygons have six wounds.

Bring your psychic hood....maybe you'll get lucky and stop half of my psychic powers...you know everything I have on the board casts them right? Oh, you brought a libby to hood my stuff? Lets see if the points you spent get you any psychic powers of your own. Probably not, considering MY psychic hood and Aegis. You see....Grey Knights RULE the psychic phase in this game. They're designed that way. Unfortunatly, you cannot hood my psybolts, psycannon, power weapons, shunts and all the other little toys that I've got.

With runes of warding you'll roll 10.5 with 3 dice on average.
This means that you shouldn't count too much on the GK psychic phase.
Rolling 12 or higher (warp attack) means that 1W models are gone.

As other people have said, GKSS troops 'suck' because any one component they bring to the table can be duplicated for fewer points or with better results.

If you want scoring units hiding in a vehicle, then henchmen with coteaz is better.

If you want cc that is scoring, then both crowe'd purfiers and GKT units and draigo'd paladins offer better cc point for point, plus a bunch of the coteaz henchmen units can also be better in many respects.

If you want shooting that is scoring, then crowe'd purfiers get 2 pcannons out of a rhino hatch for cheaper, and certian henchmen builds provide either more range or the melta special rule instead of just more pcannons. Also, draigo'd paladins are not terrible with shooting if you were going to be moving both the paladins and the GKSS, thanks to relentless.

If you dont care about scoring, then the rest of the FOC is available, meaning there is no point for GKSS outside of their unique psychic power and the fact that you still need 2 troops.

So yeah, GKSS suck compared to everything else you 'could' be doing if you specialized. Such is the fate of jacks of all trades, is that you are master of none. In addition, the GK dont really get force multipliers outside of the librarian, and the libbys force multipliers can benefit anyone, so again not a selling point of GKSS.

The one thing, IMHO, that makes GKSS a 'competetive' choice when ONLY taken on their own merit, is cheap bodies with deepstrike and s5 stormbolters. Take a squad of 10, 2 pcannons and stormbolters with psybolters, maybe a daemonhammer. Deepstrike with the aid of servoskulls to get side shots on an av10 vehicle, or rear if really lucky.

Consider the psy rifleman shooting at a chimera. 8 shots, with 8/9ths to hit and 1/3rd to pen av12, comes to ~1.19 pens. Now just 5 GKSS deepstriking with the aid of 3 servoskulls and psybolters costs the same points, and gets 1.11 pens. Add the extra 5 guys with 2 pcannons, and now your troopsquad is better than 2 psy rifleman and cheaper, though needing to deepstrike for side shots.

In this limited capacity, the GKSS is the best unit in the book for the job, as they are the cheapest. Thanks to combat squads, and the fact that you can also get them a rhino for 40 points, you add a lot of flexibility for games when you dont want to deepstrike.

Comparing GKSS to a henchman army is comparing a MEQ army to a GEQ army. They are so vastly different that it's comparing apples to oranges, which becomes a matter of subjective opinion rather than objective fact.

The debate over GKSS is really a debate over HQ. There are only 2 spots open and 6 fierce contenders that top my list, 4 of which are huge force multipliers.

#1 Cortez=GEQ army or hybrid of a GEQ army. As previously states comparing a GeQ army to a MeQ army is comparing 2 armies that are so vastly different that it's comparing apples to oranges, which becomes a matter of subjective opinion rather than objective fact. I will however say this, in a hybrid list that combines GeQ with MeQ Cortez takes a HQ slot away from force multiplication significantly weakening the MeQ half of the army.

#2 Draigo=Paladins as troops + Grand strategy. The best part of grand strategy is the ability to give D3 units rerolls to wound effectively turning I6 halberds into I6 lightning claws. Draigo is awesome, but the #1 problem with Draigo is is not as good as a regular Grandmaster because of his sub par equipment. That leads me to the regular grandmaster.

#3 Regular Grandmaster=Grand strategy + rad grenades+ servo skulls. The problem with Draigo is he doesn't have rad grenades or servo skulls, and rad grenades are just plain rude. Hammerhand + Rad grenades means a unit with I6 halberds joined by a regular grandmaster joins is going to wound MEQ or other T4 opponents on a 2+, and T4 MC on a 4+ with rerolls to wound from grand strategy. The servo skulls are also nice, and some might argue that the psychotropic grenades are even better than rad grenades. The regular grandmaster really makes regular troop terminators shine. It's really hard to compare Draigo to a regular grandmaster because it's comparing very expensive paladins to regular GK terninators bolstered by rad grenades for a deathstar.

#4 Castillian Crowe=Russel Crowe, or at least the drunken and belligerent south park version of Russel Crowe so from now on I'm just going to call him Russel Crowe. Purifiers are absolutely awesome, and spamming them for troops is great. The only problem with Russel Crowe is he's a drunken belligerent bastard who does nothing for force multiplication as Titan's Herald is completely wasted on him.

#5 Brotherhood Champion=Chaplain. So far Titan's Herald is the only ability I have seen in the GK codex that allows rerolls to hit. Toss him into Draigo's reroll to wound Paladins or a Grandmasters Reroll to wound + Rad grenade terminators and it's a real no brainer. Rerolls to hit and wound with I6 Halberds is going to be the end result.

#6 The Librarian: Where do I start? He would combine well with Draigo, a Grandmaster, or a brotherhood champion depending where you want rerolls and if it's a paladin army. Without a Librarian the army has no psychic hood. He can give a unit I10, which in the case of a decked out terminator or paladin unit we're talking about 30 to 40 attacks- the hammers. The hammers might not even be necessary as the librarian can turn the entire units attacks into S5 chainfists with titan's might, S6 if combined with hammerhand. He also has the stealth bubble. The quickining + might of titan + hammerhand = I10 S6 attacks which can then be given rerolls to hit from a brotherhood champion or rerolls to wound from Draigo/Grandmaster.

Final Verdict=Cortez and Russel Crowe have huge unwritten costs in the loss of potential force multipliers. They are both still very good HQ choices, and solid army builds can be built around them, but army builds without either of them using the double force multiplier strategy are also good solid army builds that will happen to include dun dun dun....GKSS.

I think that the Grand masters ability only lets you reroll 1s when you wond not all failed wounds.

rogersss wrote:I think that the Grand masters ability only lets you reroll 1s when you wond not all failed wounds.

Meh think you might be right the print quality on online book I am reading is not good, however hammerhand + Rad grenades=wounding T4 on a 2+

Schagenfreude, you make a good point EXCEPT... all of what you said marginalized GKSS for one of the other units!

Coteaz=GEQ, so no GKSS
Draigo=Paladins, so no GKSS
Grandmaster=termies, so no GKSS
Crowe=purfiers, so no GKSS
Champion=termies, so no GKSS
Librarian=termies, so no GKSS

You are correct in that the characters give you force multipliers, but all the force multipliers you mention are for CC, and the GKSS is not a good cc unit compared to GKT units with the free halberd/4++/hammers.

As for henchmen being GEQ, this is definately NOT true. It COULD be true, but calling a henchmen army GEQ is like calling an ork army GEQ--its just not true. A henchmen unit might be all deathcult assassians or Crusaders. Crusaders are about as similiar to GEQ as tactical marines are.

DevianID wrote:Schagenfreude, you make a good point EXCEPT... all of what you said marginalized GKSS for one of the other units!

Coteaz=GEQ, so no GKSS
Draigo=Paladins, so no GKSS
Grandmaster=termies, so no GKSS
Crowe=purfiers, so no GKSS
Champion=termies, so no GKSS
Librarian=termies, so no GKSS

You are correct in that the characters give you force multipliers, but all the force multipliers you mention are for CC, and the GKSS is not a good cc unit compared to GKT units with the free halberd/4++/hammers.

As for henchmen being GEQ, this is definately NOT true. It COULD be true, but calling a henchmen army GEQ is like calling an ork army GEQ--its just not true. A henchmen unit might be all deathcult assassians or Crusaders. Crusaders are about as similiar to GEQ as tactical marines are.

Armies with a force multiplied death star still have use for ss as the death star is a huge point sink, and without crowe or cortez ss are the only troop option. Being stuck wil a really good troops choice like ss instead of an even better troops choice is the price for having the better hq choices.

I am not expecting to see many cc henchmen, but they would be nasty. A mix of deathcult, arcoflag, and crusaders all in 1 unit would be different. The idea is good, I just don't expect to see it often.

My beef with henchmen is leadership. They are fragile, have no ansknf, and have no officers for orders. They are worse than guardsmen when it comes to leadership, so I think it is a mistake to have 100% of your scoring units as henchmen.

As an avid guard player, I'm not sure I concur with the henchman troops concern.

At 1500 i run three units of mechvets in my tournament IG army. They have leadership 8, they are in a chimera, and there is no counter-assault or other preventative measures for someone to get close enough to charge them.

In a 1500 GK army with torquemada... i would run four units of 3x henchmen with meltas. Their leadership is also 8. (but lack get back in the fight) They would also be screened and protected by three units of purifiers in razorbacks, making getting past them to charge or to flamer my henchmen much more difficult. There are also three razorbacks available for the surviving henchmen to embark on. And also if the chimera doesn't get an explodes result, the three henchmen will disembark out of the back door, and be immediately completely LOS blocked.

I have not played enough games to know for sure... but i think the addition of a fourth unit, and the presence of the purifiers/torquemada, could keep them at least as viable of a scoring unit in competitive play.

The great thing about this codex, is that if you don't agree, and the flimsiness of the henchmen units just isn't your style, you can take crowe and make those purifiers a VERY wonderful troops choice.

Hitting on strike squads again....

the strike squad I like is this...

5x strike squad 1x psycannon razorback heavy bolters psy-bolts

the purifiers I run are

5x purifiers 2x psycannon 3x halberd razorback heavy bolters psy-bolts

I'm not comfortable putting up points costs yet, but I can say that the purifiers are 32 points more per unit. Its the same transport, the same survivability to shooting, better shooting by a measurable margin, and better CC by an extremely wide margin. Warp quake theoretically closes the gap. Undoubtedly good when facing daemons, drop pods, or any other army that forces the issue with deep striking. But it does nothing when you don't face one of those armies. Take strike squads when you want warp quake or want 32 points.

I have been using crowe plenty. 7 games with him already. Not only is he not bad, I have found him to be quite good. The simple combo of cleansing flame and then blade parry for a re-rollable 2+/4++ has stopped many aggressive units dead in their tracks. He is another cleansing flame to combo with a charging purifier unit (if he and a purifier unit charge an enemy unit and both use cleansing flame, then every model in that unit will take a wound on average) and saving his heroic sacrifice for things like furioso dreadnoughts, mephiston, wolf lords, etc. When killing Crowe while he is based up to a 200 point model is actually a bad idea, then he becomes a SERIOUS issue. If you don't know what heroic sacrifice does, because you haven't seen the dex... when a brotherhood champion dies, he may use it, its a psychic power, if it passes, he rolls to hit a single model in base to base contact (his choice), if he HITS it, its removed from play, jaws of the world wolf style. BTW, his WS is 8.

However, there are other very good HQs that are certainly worth taking. And this is what is going to make the strike squad viable. And also I need to point out that if crowe didn't make purifiers troops, then I would be planning a strike squad army, at their points value, they are a perfectly usable unit. Comparing that 5 man with psycannon in the heavybolterback to a grey hunter unit in a las-plas or assault cannon razorback will show that they are at least as good. And people seem to love to hate that grey hunter unit.

Ok, the librarian with shrouding stands out to me as something quite powerful. Just simply to give dreadnoughts a 3+ cover while behind razorbacks is one obvious and very easy to apply use. But even going a step further... 'he who shall not be named' has already begun working on a foot grey knights army that uses crusader henchmen screens to provide mobile cover to shooty foot grey knights, who would then benefit immensely from shrouding. And in the context of a transport free army, would also REALLY be interested in something like warp quake.

So I guess ultimately, right now if you asked me if they weren't good, I would say hell no, they are good. You can make a hencmen list that is very good, and you can make a purifier list that is very good. And those two lists obfuscate the strike squads. But I'm not making hench lists just to ditch the "crappy" strike squads... I'm doing it to grab some heavy flamer/multi-laser chimeras and some VALUEABLE and lacking meltas. Its kinda hard to get henchmen without torquemada, and so that is why that happens. Likewise I'm not taking crowe to avoid the 'crappy' strike squads, I am taking him because purifiers are exceptional units and i want 4 of them, not 3. Point for point they are less survivable than strike squads to shooting, and they are certainly not invulnerable to CC death. BTW, running the numbers on 20 boys with power klaw nob charging the purifiers, the purifers end up losing their last model before the klaw nob dies if the orks charge. And those two units are comparable in points costs, so it isn't the end of the world by any stretch for orks.

Just for fun, and since it is a strike squad army, here is a re-imagining of an eldrad-avatar foot eldar list with the GK dex (with original idea credit to Stelek)

btw... this list is 1500 points

Inquisitor karamazov (playing the part of the avatar)
grey knight librarian shrouding quicksilver sanctuary dark excommunication might of titan 3x servo skulls (eldrad)

8x crusaders 4x death cult assassins (harlequins)

10x strike squad 2x psycannon psybolt ammo (guardians on steroids)
10x strike squad 2x psycannon psybolt ammo

dreadknight heavy incinerator (good old wraithlord)
dreadknight heavy incinerator
dreadknight