Okay, before I start reading this one, is there a version 28 or beyond?
"Sometime you will be required to roll a D3. In that case roll a single D6 and then divide the result by 2 and round down."
I think you mean round up, otherwise a 3 is now a 1 and a 5 is now a 2, which makes for rather punishing d3s.
LOS: "while other times you may need to get in close and try to get the “unit’s eye view” so that the player can determine if there is anything in the way." :-(
In my experience, this is a path fraught with danger.
Like, I'm gonna stop for a second. I know you're not a professional game designer, so nitpiking feels like critiquing someone who put time and hard work into something out of the goodness of their heart. But you've said repeatedly that these rules are 'basically as good as, if not better than, the actual rules', which means they're getting critiqued like they're the actual rules.
And believe me, I'm going light here. When the full brunt of the community is directed at the rules when boxes start going out, people will be actively seeking to find the weakest links and break the game wide open.
Long story short, the LOS rules involve a lot of "what can actually be seen", which holds with it the expectation that people use perfect stand ins for what they want to play on a table. Some gamers will be using napkins for buildings and kleenex boxes for hills. A "true LOS" system is asking a lot of the terrain above and beyond what the miniatures ask of the player's disposable income.
So in other news, my bank has given me a refund on part of my Battlecry pledge. The other part was done on my buddy's credit card (hiding some gaming spending from the lovely wife ), and we're in the dispute process with them. We'll see if it sticks, but my bank did put my part of my pledge into my bank account this afternoon.
With that being said, I'm still totally up for organizing a movement to get Palladium to refund those who want it (and also just in case my bank or my buddy's changes its mind).
jacobus wrote: So in other news, my bank has given me a refund on part of my Battlecry pledge. The other part was done on my buddy's credit card (hiding some gaming spending from the lovely wife ), and we're in the dispute process with them. We'll see if it sticks, but my bank did put my part of my pledge into my bank account this afternoon.
With that being said, I'm still totally up for organizing a movement to get Palladium to refund those who want it (and also just in case my bank or my buddy's changes its mind).
Congrats! I'm incredibly tempted to sign up for that movement!
jacobus wrote: So in other news, my bank has given me a refund on part of my Battlecry pledge. The other part was done on my buddy's credit card (hiding some gaming spending from the lovely wife ), and we're in the dispute process with them. We'll see if it sticks, but my bank did put my part of my pledge into my bank account this afternoon.
With that being said, I'm still totally up for organizing a movement to get Palladium to refund those who want it (and also just in case my bank or my buddy's changes its mind).
Congrats! I'm incredibly tempted to sign up for that movement!
Thanks. In previous incarnations I've run political campaigns, so this would be relatively easy for me. Plus I'm kinda ticked at their crappy attitude.
I love how Wayne spreads open the Nothern Gun book to show off the wrap around art. Having owned a good number of their RPG books, I'd wager that you'd be able to manage that feat maybe twice before the pages start popping out.
Man even the mods themselves are throwing the other companies under the bus. This is from FB.
"Palladium IS NOT the ONLY company involved in this project. You have Ninja Division,, ND sub-contractors, the manufacturers, Harmony Gold... blaming the lateness purely on Palladium is just laziness and asinine."
Good thing this guy doesn't officially work for PB and only mods their forum.
Talizvar wrote: A very practical friend told me once: I can work for a smart/evil boss, you can convince him through logic of his own self interest, I can work with a good/stupid man because I can get him to trust me BUT a stupid/evil person their is nothing redeemable there. In this parallel I wonder what PB is.
You've just given me a new mantra to live by. lol
Heh, sounds like a variation of the four classes of military officer.
jacobus wrote: So in other news, my bank has given me a refund on part of my Battlecry pledge. The other part was done on my buddy's credit card (hiding some gaming spending from the lovely wife ), and we're in the dispute process with them. We'll see if it sticks, but my bank did put my part of my pledge into my bank account this afternoon.
With that being said, I'm still totally up for organizing a movement to get Palladium to refund those who want it (and also just in case my bank or my buddy's changes its mind).
jacobus wrote: So in other news, my bank has given me a refund on part of my Battlecry pledge. The other part was done on my buddy's credit card (hiding some gaming spending from the lovely wife ), and we're in the dispute process with them. We'll see if it sticks, but my bank did put my part of my pledge into my bank account this afternoon.
With that being said, I'm still totally up for organizing a movement to get Palladium to refund those who want it (and also just in case my bank or my buddy's changes its mind).
How did you manage that? VISA Chargeback?
Yeah, I'd be interesting to know what you said, what methods were used, etc.
Considering going to the bank in the morning, so any advice before dealing with them would be helpful.
Expanded on my post here about 3d printing, while critical I think I remained fairly objective
Click for instant wall o' text:
Spoiler:
On various forums I've seen a lot of comments about 3d printing and it's supposed "limits" being cited for why the previewed pieces look so bad. A lot of that is simply not true and it's coming from people who have little working knowledge about just what 3d printing is capable of.
This is not a dig against Palladium. I want people to be aware of what can actually be done and maybe get a more informed understanding of 3d prints.
First the prints that they show in the previews are done on an Objet machine which is a lower resolution machine that only offers a marginal print. Shapeways uses this same machine for several of their materials including the frosted and ultra frosted detail. A miniature the size of battletech/RTT runs about $30-$50 depending on how many parts there are and if the company does any finishing work.
It's built by layering very thin cross sections of ABS plastic on top of each other and binding them together with a wax base to hold the layer together. As the time the machine was released about 6-7 years ago it was a rather advanced machine but like a computer from 8 years ago, it's now very dated in terms of what it can offer. It typically has rough edges and needs a lot of sanding and clean up work by hand.
On many of the previews you can see build lines which are the edges of the layers, under magnification the plastic and wax looks sort of like the edges of a phone book which is why you can see tiny lines all over the surface. If you put an ink wash on the model it'll make it even more prominent. You can attempt to cover it with primer but in many cases it can make it look even worse.
It's a cost effective way of getting a print so that you can check measurements or sizing issues, but again it's an outdated machine and not a very good option for miniatures.
Newer machines offer much higher resolution and are incredibly apt for making miniatures. Some of the new printer have working tollerences that are actually superior to what milling machines are capable of. The downside of these prints is that they are several times more expensive then the objet prints. What might cost $50 as an Objet print might run $300 or more for the same model. The difference however is quite notable.
Prints for medical devices can run into the thousands but are capable of printing on an incredible level of accuracy, so when people spout off about the limit of 3d printing it's very inaccurate. The limits are far beyond the requirements ever be needed for miniatures. What "limits" printing is the budget that the customer is willing to put in place for their prints.
If you pay for a $50 shapeways objet style print it'll look like crap unless you put in a huge amount of time cleaning it by hand. Even then it's not very well suited for molding in silicone as the surface is porous and binds with silicone, and if used in traditional molding for white metal the heat melts away much of the wax binding.
If you step up a bit and use newer printers and material you can get models that are damn near perfect, which require no clean up work prior to molding and they are capable of enduring a vulcanized mold creation.
The models that I included pictures for were all created by 3d printing. The Tomahawk/Warhammer I had printed over 3 years ago and was done on the same machine that ND/PB printed their models with, the difference is that I spent nearly 30 hours cleaning it after it was printed, and I know what I'm doing as a modeler and sculptor.
The other model is in the exact same scale and was printed with a higher resolution printer. Not only are the details incredibly clear and razor straight but it was mold ready straight from the printer. It did cost a good chunk of change more but the quality is incredible.
So the point is that "limits of 3d printing" may have been a glass ceiling 4-5 years ago, but the current technology has vastly improved and "limits" are no longer the case.
It's not at a level where you can print such models as a retail product, but they are ideal for masters to be used resin and metal casting.
So please don't cite 3d limits as an excuse to why the preview models look bad or are ill fitting, they look bad and don't fit right because they were done on a cheap printer in order to keep costs down, there's a difference.
----------------------
I'll also note that having an inexperienced modeler putting together items to take to the premiere industry trade show... not the best of ideas.
Take a look at any of the preview items that GW's Forge World division puts up on display, they are immaculate. (Same with CMON, Wyrd, or any other miniatures company) You only get one chance to make first impressions, miniatures with obvious gaps or other defects aren't the way to put your best foot forwards.
If your own staff can't put items together at a beginners level how are the customers supposed to fare any better?
----------------
response to Alex
The preview pieces aren't a sample of final quality, so there's no reason to waste money on an expensive print. I'd also do the same if I were checking models before tooling. I am simply pointing out that the low quality of the test prints is not a result of 3d technology being inherently bad/limited as many have suggested.
However, those prints also shouldn't be making round at a convention showing what "mouth watering detail" there will be, as there's a good chance people will be turned off by gritty textures, visible build lines, or gaps. Would you go to a car lot that has lots of cars with misaligned body panels, wobbly hubcaps or bad paint and believe them if they say "this is really awesome quality... just wait until next week when our amazing Ferraris come rolling in".
You'd look at them like they are crazy and think they have no clue what quality is, that's why everyone puts out the best possible prototypes when pimping their wares at a tradeshow or when trying to reach a new audience, appearances of the miniatures and the games visuals are the most key element to selling to the crowds at a convention. If you don't have that hook the booth next to you probably will and that's where their money goes.
Your GW Rhino is also 10 times the size of a Robotech model, if you can barely handle assembling that what are you going to do with a model that's fraction of the size, yet has almost as many parts?
The current mock ups are not going to make for a user friendly end product and that is where many of the complaints are coming from. If you aren't an experienced modeler then the kits for this are going to be rather daunting once you actually sit down to build them.
When you are designing a product for the masses be it rpgs or models you need to know what your target audience is going to be and plan accordingly so that you can make the product accessible. It's not a case "dumbing it down" but rather understanding how your entry level customer will react and taking their skill set into consideration.
Take a look at battletech which is the most direct competitor, none of the models in their boxed et require any assembly, this allows the new customer to dip their toes into the wargaming market without concern for their modeling skills. As they get deeper into the miniatures side they can start using more complex and detailed miniatures, even then many of the metal models are still one piece.
At most they might have 6-10 parts which is why the game has maintained it's popularity. Wargamers aren't looking for scale models, they are looking for miniatures. Something that appears has slipped past PB, likely due to their unfamiliarity with wargamers.
I'm not saying they are producing a poor product at all, for a scale model it's perfectly fine, but what they are producing is a product with the wrong end user focus.
(and that's what the blow up from the last updates is stemming from)
Pfft. That thread has nothing on the vitriol in the HG thread! HG and Robotech were supposed to be my games of 2013 and 2014 respectively but frankly neither has panned out in any satisfactory way. I still play X-wing semi-regularly (monthly) but I find myself drawn back to the safety net of 40k more and more. I even started painting some of my left over truescale space marines that I never got around to (although I don't think I'll succumb to buying more figs though from GW).
paulson games wrote: Expanded on my post here about 3d printing, while critical I think I remained fairly objective
Click for instant wall o' text:
Spoiler:
On various forums I've seen a lot of comments about 3d printing and it's supposed "limits" being cited for why the previewed pieces look so bad. A lot of that is simply not true and it's coming from people who have little working knowledge about just what 3d printing is capable of.
This is not a dig against Palladium. I want people to be aware of what can actually be done and maybe get a more informed understanding of 3d prints.
First the prints that they show in the previews are done on an Objet machine which is a lower resolution machine that only offers a marginal print. Shapeways uses this same machine for several of their materials including the frosted and ultra frosted detail. A miniature the size of battletech/RTT runs about $30-$50 depending on how many parts there are and if the company does any finishing work.
It's built by layering very thin cross sections of ABS plastic on top of each other and binding them together with a wax base to hold the layer together. As the time the machine was released about 6-7 years ago it was a rather advanced machine but like a computer from 8 years ago, it's now very dated in terms of what it can offer. It typically has rough edges and needs a lot of sanding and clean up work by hand.
On many of the previews you can see build lines which are the edges of the layers, under magnification the plastic and wax looks sort of like the edges of a phone book which is why you can see tiny lines all over the surface. If you put an ink wash on the model it'll make it even more prominent. You can attempt to cover it with primer but in many cases it can make it look even worse.
It's a cost effective way of getting a print so that you can check measurements or sizing issues, but again it's an outdated machine and not a very good option for miniatures.
Newer machines offer much higher resolution and are incredibly apt for making miniatures. Some of the new printer have working tollerences that are actually superior to what milling machines are capable of. The downside of these prints is that they are several times more expensive then the objet prints. What might cost $50 as an Objet print might run $300 or more for the same model. The difference however is quite notable.
Prints for medical devices can run into the thousands but are capable of printing on an incredible level of accuracy, so when people spout off about the limit of 3d printing it's very inaccurate. The limits are far beyond the requirements ever be needed for miniatures. What "limits" printing is the budget that the customer is willing to put in place for their prints.
If you pay for a $50 shapeways objet style print it'll look like crap unless you put in a huge amount of time cleaning it by hand. Even then it's not very well suited for molding in silicone as the surface is porous and binds with silicone, and if used in traditional molding for white metal the heat melts away much of the wax binding.
If you step up a bit and use newer printers and material you can get models that are damn near perfect, which require no clean up work prior to molding and they are capable of enduring a vulcanized mold creation.
The models that I included pictures for were all created by 3d printing. The Tomahawk/Warhammer I had printed over 3 years ago and was done on the same machine that ND/PB printed their models with, the difference is that I spent nearly 30 hours cleaning it after it was printed, and I know what I'm doing as a modeler and sculptor.
The other model is in the exact same scale and was printed with a higher resolution printer. Not only are the details incredibly clear and razor straight but it was mold ready straight from the printer. It did cost a good chunk of change more but the quality is incredible.
So the point is that "limits of 3d printing" may have been a glass ceiling 4-5 years ago, but the current technology has vastly improved and "limits" are no longer the case.
It's not at a level where you can print such models as a retail product, but they are ideal for masters to be used resin and metal casting.
So please don't cite 3d limits as an excuse to why the preview models look bad or are ill fitting, they look bad and don't fit right because they were done on a cheap printer in order to keep costs down, there's a difference.
----------------------
I'll also note that having an inexperienced modeler putting together items to take to the premiere industry trade show... not the best of ideas.
Take a look at any of the preview items that GW's Forge World division puts up on display, they are immaculate. (Same with CMON, Wyrd, or any other miniatures company) You only get one chance to make first impressions, miniatures with obvious gaps or other defects aren't the way to put your best foot forwards.
If your own staff can't put items together at a beginners level how are the customers supposed to fare any better?
----------------
response to Alex
The preview pieces aren't a sample of final quality, so there's no reason to waste money on an expensive print. I'd also do the same if I were checking models before tooling. I am simply pointing out that the low quality of the test prints is not a result of 3d technology being inherently bad/limited as many have suggested.
However, those prints also shouldn't be making round at a convention showing what "mouth watering detail" there will be, as there's a good chance people will be turned off by gritty textures, visible build lines, or gaps. Would you go to a car lot that has lots of cars with misaligned body panels, wobbly hubcaps or bad paint and believe them if they say "this is really awesome quality... just wait until next week when our amazing Ferraris come rolling in".
You'd look at them like they are crazy and think they have no clue what quality is, that's why everyone puts out the best possible prototypes when pimping their wares at a tradeshow or when trying to reach a new audience, appearances of the miniatures and the games visuals are the most key element to selling to the crowds at a convention. If you don't have that hook the booth next to you probably will and that's where their money goes.
Your GW Rhino is also 10 times the size of a Robotech model, if you can barely handle assembling that what are you going to do with a model that's fraction of the size, yet has almost as many parts?
The current mock ups are not going to make for a user friendly end product and that is where many of the complaints are coming from. If you aren't an experienced modeler then the kits for this are going to be rather daunting once you actually sit down to build them.
When you are designing a product for the masses be it rpgs or models you need to know what your target audience is going to be and plan accordingly so that you can make the product accessible. It's not a case "dumbing it down" but rather understanding how your entry level customer will react and taking their skill set into consideration.
Take a look at battletech which is the most direct competitor, none of the models in their boxed et require any assembly, this allows the new customer to dip their toes into the wargaming market without concern for their modeling skills. As they get deeper into the miniatures side they can start using more complex and detailed miniatures, even then many of the metal models are still one piece.
At most they might have 6-10 parts which is why the game has maintained it's popularity. Wargamers aren't looking for scale models, they are looking for miniatures. Something that appears has slipped past PB, likely due to their unfamiliarity with wargamers.
I'm not saying they are producing a poor product at all, for a scale model it's perfectly fine, but what they are producing is a product with the wrong end user focus.
(and that's what the blow up from the last updates is stemming from)
I found it rather aggravating when Alex brought up your past dealings with the project, but decided to put his own negative spin on it (White knighting even when he claims to not be). Having heard it from you in much more detail; I can honestly say that there really isn't any bad blood between you and PB/ND's project. He just wanted to make a quick dig to try and discredit you (of course, I shouldn't expect anything else from the guy who compared a gnerl fighter to his undersized man parts ). But very insightful post again, love the inside information on all this stuff.
On Mike's unofficial Robotech International (or whatever it is) page, yes.
Alex Clarke has been a vocal part of the KS comments section, usually throwing around vulgarity as though it's some sort of gift he's granting us to share and enjoy. Comes across as an angry little man who sees there as being two views to the world; the wrong way and his way.
Got banned from making kickstarter comments a few weeks back for lashing out at other backers, not sure if that's ongoing or just lapsed and he hasn't been bothered to return (not that I care, with things this heated I can't see him adding fuel to the fire being in anyway helpful). Massive fan of Battletech (probably part of why he and Mike get along so well :-P ) and quick to dismiss any critique, complaints or concerns as 'entitled whining'.
His level of discourse is somewhere around youtube comments.
jacobus wrote: So in other news, my bank has given me a refund on part of my Battlecry pledge. The other part was done on my buddy's credit card (hiding some gaming spending from the lovely wife ), and we're in the dispute process with them. We'll see if it sticks, but my bank did put my part of my pledge into my bank account this afternoon.
With that being said, I'm still totally up for organizing a movement to get Palladium to refund those who want it (and also just in case my bank or my buddy's changes its mind).
How did you manage that? VISA Chargeback?
Yeah, I'd be interesting to know what you said, what methods were used, etc.
Considering going to the bank in the morning, so any advice before dealing with them would be helpful.
I simply told my bank what was going on- they had promised us product in December, and now they're saying that it some of it may be to us by August. I had asked them for a refund, and they refused. They showed some finished test product, still didn't move their timeline forward, and the product was unsatisfactory. Asked for a refund again, based on delays and product quality, and never heard from them. Bank gave me my money back.
I'm not totally sure, but that might also mean that they may be going after PB to get the money. Again, not sure how that works, but if enough people start doing this, it might make it easier for folks to get actual refunds without having to go through a rigamarole.
warboss wrote: Is there a way to file a complaint about an individual commenter on Kickstarter? Or is that only something the owner of a project can do?
I could swear there was a "report this user" option on people's profile page (when viewing other users), but can't find it for the life of me right now.
If all else fails, one could always just copy the profile name/link and send it to Kickstarter directly, but considering the trolling that does occasionally go on in these comments sections, I'm surprised it isn't easier to do.
Hell, I've suggested that they would do well to include an ignore feature, but they're not looking to implement such a thing.
I wish I could post the compiled list of insults the guy wrote just from the last two days. If he follows the Alex Clarke mould, he should be gracing Mike's facebook page sometime soon if he isn't already. For those new to the Robotech Kickstarter comment sections, this is what you may run into:
warboss wrote: Is there a way to file a complaint about an individual commenter on Kickstarter? Or is that only something the owner of a project can do?
I did it once when another backer started posting anti semitic stuff in the comments of a KS I used the report this project link and then just filled in the form and linked to the backers comments. Kickstarter took a few days to delete them.
You can also open a support ticket as follows, KS really don't make it easy but at least they do reply.
Support - General questions about pledging to a project - Using the site - Other
Man I'm glad I dropped this project I've been following this with interest but had a real WTF moment when the guy in the video said you can't see the seams if your looking form above! really
I'm so back and forth on this it almost makes me stomach sick. I want Robotech mins so bad and this had so much potential.
Then the next time I think about the $1000 I'm in for and see what they are touting, I want to get a baseball bat and take a drive to Michigan.
I'm developing some sort of Stockholm Syndrome, or domestic abuse denier defense. I keep telling myself everything will turn out ok, and clearly it's not going too.
Just... wtf man... wtf.....
I'm in for Reckless and tons of add-ons. I'll be building these crap models forever or they will sit in a box to never be touched.
The seams...Jesus, who puts a seam right down the canopy of a mini that's like 80% farking canopy? Splitting the covers for the launchers....who does that and who's the idiot that looked at it and went, "OK. Great job!"
warboss wrote: I wish I could post the compiled list of insults the guy wrote just from the last two days. If he follows the Alex Clarke mould, he should be gracing Mike's facebook page sometime soon if he isn't already. For those new to the Robotech Kickstarter comment sections, this is what you may run into:
Dear God, that was bad. That was a disgusting display of humanity. It was also incredibly humorous that he would threaten to sue about something he brought up and especially after calling everyone disagreeing with the way the game is being handled as trailer park trash pu$$ies. Also, HG taking the Macross franchise and making it better with Robotech NO. After frankensteining it, Robotech became its own thing. Both franchises have their positive and negative merits, but IMHO they really can't be compared fairly (Background: I like both franchises, and they are exactly the same thing for the 1st arc of Robotech and 1st series of Macross). This post by Duncan was meant to be purely obtuse at this point. P.S. He should be banned along with Alex Clarke.
Yeah, they have some terrible seam placement. The fact that both PB and ND have to defend the seams shows that even they deep down know what kind of trash they're getting ready to churn out. That is what makes the SDEKS, and even the thread here on Dakka even funnier. In the comments on the SDEKS, there are people who are demonizing CMoN as the money lusting, whip toting overseers who drove Ninja Pop into the ground. I have to laugh, as pretty much everything about their SDEKS is putting a hand out for another dollar with every other SG. But those guys are loving what they are dishing out. I laughed at their most recently revealed $25k SG. They are going to gift 7 (seven) cards to all their backers for that $25k contribution. So, they're pretty much going to spend about $250 to churn out 15,000 cards.
I pretty much despise both PB and ND at this point. It's funny that PB is turning on ND on the comments section. I don't think it is lazy to point out that PB is responsible for this, as it is their KS, and they are overall in charge of where this KS is and isn't. CMoN I believe handled it much better when they handed the reins for the KS updates over to Ninja Pop to bungle and show their @$$ on. But there are so many people blinded by their like of SDE that think that Ninja Pop are responsible business professionals and actually care about their player base. I was pretty much disabused of that notion when Ninja Pop Ned (real name not worth remembering) told me how stupid I was for not understanding that their cut rate mold method prevented them from actually making a model worth having. As well the explanation that the seams wouldn't be at all noticeable. The seams on some of the best models in miniatures are still noticeable. These are a travesty.
It is just icing on the winter of my discontent that a Palladium Pudwhacker says that the seams aren't that noticeable when viewed from above. They're noticeable with your eyes closed. There was less of a disturbance in the force when Darth Vader destroyed Alderaan. In fact, the Sith as a whole are in awe at the complete and quite public eradication of an entire generations worth of nostalgia that these two companies are perpetrating. Perhaps there is yet a few unblemished believers out there that could have a counter KS to collect the tears of true believers, bottle them, and distribute them to those of us who will have mounds and mounds of plastic piles to rival those found on the Isle of Misfit Toys. I'm not sure I can punish my children with this game when we eventually receive it.
I found it rather aggravating when Alex brought up your past dealings with the project, but decided to put his own negative spin on it (White knighting even when he claims to not be). Having heard it from you in much more detail; I can honestly say that there really isn't any bad blood between you and PB/ND's project. He just wanted to make a quick dig to try and discredit you (of course, I shouldn't expect anything else from the guy who compared a gnerl fighter to his undersized man parts ). But very insightful post again, love the inside information on all this stuff.
Saying things are peachy with PB would be a bit much, I really don't care for PB/Kevin at all and I make that pretty clear with people but when I criticize them I'm not waging any sort of personal crusade. I do want to see a good Robotech product, I've waited 30 years of my life for it and if I didn't believe it was possible I wouldn't have tried to help get the game launched. I put in a lot of work on it and was passionate about it, anyone that did the same and got axed would feel a bit miffed. People saying they'd feel differently if they were in the same situation are just lying through their teeth. People don't volunteer 6-8 months of their life trying to make something they don't believe in, and getting slapped down at that point stings pretty bad, so of course part of me is angry but I don't let that guide my critiques of them. Sure it may color some of it negatively but I don't rage on PB just for the sake of it. In a lot of ways it's like GW there's elements you can love about their product yet really dislike the company itself as a whole.
ND I'm completely fine with, they were part of the project well after me and most of their work has been stellar. I really like their graphics and the 3d work has been solid.
Alex is obviously a troll and trying to imply that simply because I had a conflict with PB in the past I'm incapable of moving on which is just stupid. If anything I think my involvement with the game in it's early stages that I did have some very valid ideas and skills because even if I failed to carry things all the way through the ball finally got rolling for the first time in 25 years. He can't discredit my skill or the fact I have actual industry experience so he's trying to be a dick while cursing people out behind a smiling troll face. When he can't make a proper argument he resorts to swearing and mud slinging so feth him.
Sure I'm unhappy with how things went (particularly the way Kevin addressed it), but at the same time I'm really proud to have had a hand in getting things started and it's also directed me into other areas I probably wouldn't have gone if I'd simply stayed working on Robotech. (like working on Mecha Front) Like most things in life the experience was a bit of a mixed bag but I grew as a result of it and like an adult I picked up and moved on, it's just business.
I pretty much despise both PB and ND at this point. It's funny that PB is turning on ND on the comments section. I don't think it is lazy to point out that PB is responsible for this, as it is their KS, and they are overall in charge of where this KS is and isn't. CMoN I believe handled it much better when they handed the reins for the KS updates over to Ninja Pop to bungle and show their @$$ on. But there are so many people blinded by their like of SDE that think that Ninja Pop are responsible business professionals and actually care about their player base. I was pretty much disabused of that notion when Ninja Pop Ned (real name not worth remembering) told me how stupid I was for not understanding that their cut rate mold method prevented them from actually making a model worth having. As well the explanation that the seams wouldn't be at all noticeable. The seams on some of the best models in miniatures are still noticeable. These are a travesty.
It is just icing on the winter of my discontent that a Palladium Pudwhacker says that the seams aren't that noticeable when viewed from above. They're noticeable with your eyes closed. There was less of a disturbance in the force when Darth Vader destroyed Alderaan. In fact, the Sith as a whole are in awe at the complete and quite public eradication of an entire generations worth of nostalgia that these two companies are perpetrating. Perhaps there is yet a few unblemished believers out there that could have a counter KS to collect the tears of true believers, bottle them, and distribute them to those of us who will have mounds and mounds of plastic piles to rival those found on the Isle of Misfit Toys. I'm not sure I can punish my children with this game when we eventually receive it.
That a bit more Gilmore Girls than I'd have put it but I understand the sentiment. Where did they say the bolded part?
Salacious Greed wrote: I have to laugh, as pretty much everything about their SDEKS is putting a hand out for another dollar with every other SG.
To be fair (even if it isn't deserved), for the RRT campaign half the 'stretch goals' required further payments as well. Off hand, they generally trended towards paid/free, with a smattering of unit/box upgrades (and random gak nobody asked for like the experimentals, but that's another story).
That said...
It is just icing on the winter of my discontent that a Palladium Pudwhacker says that the seams aren't that noticeable when viewed from above. They're noticeable with your eyes closed. There was less of a disturbance in the force when Darth Vader destroyed Alderaan. In fact, the Sith as a whole are in awe at the complete and quite public eradication of an entire generations worth of nostalgia that these two companies are perpetrating. Perhaps there is yet a few unblemished believers out there that could have a counter KS to collect the tears of true believers, bottle them, and distribute them to those of us who will have mounds and mounds of plastic piles to rival those found on the Isle of Misfit Toys. I'm not sure I can punish my children with this game when we eventually receive it.
I don't remember the exact saying but it's something to the effect:
If everyone you meet is constantly out to get you all of the time and it's everyone else that's always the problem; maybe it's not them but it's actually you.
Afterall what are the chances that in Palladium's 30 years stretch of business they can only seem to attract crazy and/or incompetent people? All the problems with the company are always because somebody else has inflicted them upon Palladium, it's never ever, ever, ever, the result of a bad choice that Kevin made right?
Everyone else makes mistakes, typically admits to them and then manage to find a way move on, but not for those in the gleaming ivory tower over in MI. Oh no, all their troubles and woes are clearly because of ND's fault or because somebody else failed them yet again.
I simply told my bank what was going on- they had promised us product in December, and now they're saying that it some of it may be to us by August. I had asked them for a refund, and they refused. They showed some finished test product, still didn't move their timeline forward, and the product was unsatisfactory. Asked for a refund again, based on delays and product quality, and never heard from them. Bank gave me my money back.
I'm not totally sure, but that might also mean that they may be going after PB to get the money. Again, not sure how that works, but if enough people start doing this, it might make it easier for folks to get actual refunds without having to go through a rigamarole.
Thanks for that. I might email PB tomorrow and ask for a refund in that case. Get the ball rolling, so to speak. While I'd like to get my BC stuff, the quality looks like it's going to be at least a Sedition Wars level write-off. (and I sunk $700+ into that piece of gak).
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warboss wrote: I wish I could post the compiled list of insults the guy wrote just from the last two days. If he follows the Alex Clarke mould, he should be gracing Mike's facebook page sometime soon if he isn't already. For those new to the Robotech Kickstarter comment sections, this is what you may run into:
Nice. I especially liked the mangled grammar in the post where he chides Merijeek about grammar. Otherwise, he just looks like a standard raving loony internet tough guy/superfan who wouldn't say boo to a goose in real life.
[MOD EDIT - Yeah, not allowed in pictures either! - Alpharius]
OK, fair enough. I wasn't sure, and spoilered it based on the Reaper/etc boobs we often get in N&R.
Don't forget, anyone who's really interested in a refund, PM me. I'm trying to get a group together, and I'm working on a FB group as well. I may have it ready for public consumption by the end of the week. Hopefully we can collectively pressure PB to give us our money back.
Hmm debating whether I want to go for the refund or not, while Im not turned off by the previews I'm seeing by any means, and am actually very much looking forward to it, I am VERY put off by the seemingly endless delays and the seeming lack of any progress towards getting product in hand. Whats the latest 'ship date' they're promising again? I think it was July? I dont see that happening given their seemingly current point of development.
Warboss, It was in the last update, where the guy from ND gave us the engineering overview of undercuts and mold cutting for beginners, and why every model they designed had to be split down the middle.
Yes, I was still charged up from my pre-workout supplement yesterday, so a few extra synapses were firing, and I get a little wordy when I'm that amped up.
Forar, yes, RRT had a lot of paid add-ons unlcocked as well, but a great many of those were given to the backers, not left solely in the paid add-on section. I actually took a pass on most of the paid stuff that was added into pledges, the armored and VF-1Ts were the only add-ons for me. I don't see the same from Ninja Pop, it feels much more of a 1 for you, 2 for me, 1 for you, 2 for me type of campaign. Using the dedicated player base to right their failing ship, and not giving much consideration to that player base for doing so. And there is nothing wrong with those players really liking and enjoying SDE, and they're welcome to prop Ninja Pop up. I just don't trust them, and as this is really their first true solo KS campaign, I find it interesting that they're rather stingy with rewarding their backers. RK, RRT and Megaman were all fronted by other companies, and had really great value for the backers. Now, it's almost as if they begrudge everything they add into a pledge. And I have no issue with companies having lots of add-ons to help drive up pledge amounts. I thought Arcadia Quest did a great job of having things to buy, as well as the Mercs Recon KS right now. They have some great stuff that adds content to Recon. But the majority of stuff to buy with The Forgotten King has been unlocked in the KS. It just feels, to me, that they know that a majority of their fanbase are completionists, and WILL buy it, because it is a compulsion.
But, with GAMA, and PBs embarrassingly terrible models on show, it just defines for me that both PB and ND are pretty much amatuer hour. If they aren't interested in impressing their peers and all the businessmen they want to carry and push their product, then they're not worth supporting with my dollar and time. I was really impressed with what I saw from Fantasy Frog Productions, and their Shadows of Brimstone game. But PB and ND with RRT was depressing, and any time you apologize profusely and have to ask people not to touch your crap models because they might implode, it's seriously embarrassing.
chaos0xomega wrote: Hmm debating whether I want to go for the refund or not, while Im not turned off by the previews I'm seeing by any means, and am actually very much looking forward to it, I am VERY put off by the seemingly endless delays and the seeming lack of any progress towards getting product in hand. Whats the latest 'ship date' they're promising again? I think it was July? I dont see that happening given their seemingly current point of development.
It's still officially June, via Updates and official PB releases (Weekly Updates, Murmurs, etc).
The following was thrown out in the snitfit with a Backer named Zero.
"We'll deliver as promised, as soon as we can. Wave One will deliver in June or July, as we've said before. "
It's buried DEEP in the comments section of Update 135, probably 15-20 pages in.
So I discount it for that reason, and also because "as we've said before" has to my knowledge, NEVER been said before, for July. It's the first mention of July as possible.
chaos0xomega wrote: Hmm debating whether I want to go for the refund or not, while Im not turned off by the previews I'm seeing by any means, and am actually very much looking forward to it, I am VERY put off by the seemingly endless delays and the seeming lack of any progress towards getting product in hand. Whats the latest 'ship date' they're promising again? I think it was July? I dont see that happening given their seemingly current point of development.
It's still officially June, via Updates and official PB releases (Weekly Updates, Murmurs, etc).
The following was thrown out in the snitfit with a Backer named Zero.
"We'll deliver as promised, as soon as we can. Wave One will deliver in June or July, as we've said before. "
It's buried DEEP in the comments section of Update 135, probably 15-20 pages in.
So I discount it for that reason, and also because "as we've said before" has to my knowledge, NEVER been said before, for July. It's the first mention of July as possible.
The July reference is the first and it caught my eye when IIRC forar posted it last week. They copy pasted June for May into the previous maybe may, definitely early June estimate. Within a few weeks we'll likely see a one line sentance buried somewhere in a murmur on their site slipping it back to July, early August in time for Gencon. If they get the shipment in by August they won't actually have the time to ship it to any significant portion of their backers when factoring Gencon prep. Egg on their face is frankly the only thing I will have to show for this kickstarter for at least 8 months post earliest posted delivery date and counting. If that ends up being the case, I hope they miss gencon as they deserve the public embarrassment and lack of direct sales. A mediocre release of Robotech won't sink Palladium as they can always fall back on their 100 die hard fans that buy everything and praise everything they do but with the way all this is shaping up I don't expect it to be a big success beyond the KS due to lack of company support, planning, skill, and foresight.
rigeld2 wrote: I'm betting they fly some boxes over for GenCon and Wave 1 delivers in October.
If they do, and I have been denied my money back, I'll be having a "Palladium ripped me off for $1500, and I had to pay for my own damned shirt" printed in white text on a medium blue shirt (that's their colors, right?) made up for GenCon.
Do I need a TM or a (C) after Palladium if I put the name on a TShirt? Or would it be covered under the satire exceptions for free speech? Or would it be funnier to put the trademark symbols on, regardless?
rigeld2 wrote: I'm betting they fly some boxes over for GenCon and Wave 1 delivers in October.
If they do, and I have been denied my money back, I'll be having a "Palladium ripped me off for $1500, and I had to pay for my own damned shirt" printed in white text on a medium blue shirt (that's their colors, right?) made up for GenCon.
Do I need a TM or a (C) after Palladium if I put the name on a TShirt? Or would it be covered under the satire exceptions for free speech? Or would it be funnier to put the trademark symbols on, regardless?
If they release the game at Gen Con before the backers get theirs, I'd love to see some folks do a picket line or some form of protest. They certainly have it coming. I'd hate to see them spin this debacle into a triumph (even if it's in their own minds). If cold hard, pissed off reality is staring you right in the face. It's hard for anyone to just smile and ignore it. Which is what will happen if nobody calls Palladium on their handling of Robotech RTT.
The T-Shirt idea is nice. I think something simple like 'Palladium Sucks' in big bold letters and then something about the why's and how's either on the back or below them. Just list all the release dates, maybe some broken promises. I know you can't sell them, but you could give them away with the purchase of a bottle of a $7 or $10 water.
I have this vision of angry KS backers asking some hard hitting questions about the KS in person via Youtube.
If things keep on going like they are, this is just going to get uglier and uglier.
Well the Robotech Saga continues... I've been out of the loop!
Didn't pledge in the end except for Rick, probably waiting for the Retail Box in 2031. You know, when the Invid finally invade Earth.
Honestly guys, the miniatures aren't looking that terrible, the MAC still is sexay. I don't pledge Kickstarters assuming they'll deliver on time.
Of course, Palladium is pretty gak at this but is anyone really surprised? Just go play other games until the kickstarter and implodes and everyone gets shafted or you finally receive a mediocre miniatures game
with an infinite number of fiddly veritech bits.
Such are the risks of nostalgia-based kickstarters! Caveat Emptor.
Salacious Greed wrote: I can only hope their movie turns out as good as their other products. With a straight to 8-track release schedule!
Don't be ridiculous. This movie will be released on betamax as a two pack along with a copy of the N-gage video game because that is what the fans want and Kevin always gives the 99% what they clamor for. Who says Palladium isn't hip with the times!?!
Hmm... Methinks people do not take Palladium and it's directive team seriously. [STOP] Accusations that they are behind the times are slanderous. [STOP] Verily, I shall be sending them a telegram posthaste voicing my concerns. [STOP]
I am kind of glad now that I didn't rope myself into getting these minis early. The release date looks like it will slide back again, and the product is looking shoddy (especially for its purposes) so far. I will probably wait until when/if this hits retail and I have seen what the contents look like. Continue to read the farce the campaign is turning into though looking for any real news. So you will still hear from me. Probably turn my tabletop e-dollars towards some Paulson Mechas.
I see seams on these as well. They just happen to only be on the sub-atomic level, but still.
Only if the seems are at the molecular level It's not possible to have seems on these parts as they are cast as solid pieces, mold lines are in most cases likely (but kept minimal), but it's devoid of seems.
Meanwhile the plastics will have both seems and mold lines to contend with. Not a deal breaker but simply an annoyance when preparing the models.
PallyDrone wrote: I see seams on these as well. They just happen to only be on the sub-atomic level, but still.
Only if the seems are at the molecular level It's not possible to have seems on these parts as they are cast as solid pieces, mold lines are in most cases likely (but kept minimal), but it's devoid of seems.
Meanwhile the plastics will have both seems and mold lines to contend with. Not a deal breaker but simply an annoyance when preparing the models.
Maybe after seeing the Palladium attempt, PallyDrone is seeing seams everywhere. Kind of like a Gamer PTSD?
Some SP/ND commentary, sounds like things between ND and PB are growing a bit more distant as PB is now taking over all the promotions end and ND won't be running any games at the convention.
Given their lack of connection with the miniatures gaming community it'll be interesting to see if PB can manage to keep their train on the rails.
Having a successful miniatures line is much more involved then just stocking shelves.
Prototypes are coming in from the manufacturer, we’re making corrections as needed, approving material for manufacturing, taking one last look over the rule book, laying out the color guide and trying to keep you, our stalwart supporters, in the loop the best we can with our demanding schedule. Excitement is running high as we get closer and closer to manufacturing.
Y'know, excitement has been running high on this project for the last year and change.
Someone should make them see a doctor. I'm pretty sure that if 'excitement' lasts more than 4 hours you're supposed to consult a physician. Unfettered enthusiasm for this many months has gotta be a health risk.
Prototypes are coming in from the manufacturer, we’re making corrections as needed, approving material for manufacturing, taking one last look over the rule book, laying out the color guide and trying to keep you, our stalwart supporters, in the loop the best we can with our demanding schedule. Excitement is running high as we get closer and closer to manufacturing.
WTF kind of demanding schedule do they have? Mark Mondragon explained why his DreamForge Games stuff has been late, and he garners a lot of respect for striving to put the best product into the market. But haven't we established that these incompetent boobs can't even release paper books on time? Does eating snackey poos and stealing oxygen count as a demanding schedule? Idiots. And the rulebook being looked over one last time better be THE best written product to see printed release this decade. Lord knows they've had more than a year to edit it, and to even spend some of that KS money on hiring a Real editor.
On another note, over on the Robotech Tactics FB, there's a guy who is happy that the miniatures being incomprehensibly complex, so that he can cherry pick peoples miniatures off of Ebay, and hopes the game will die, as he and his gaming group will have enough figures to perpetuate their games. Some people truly crack me up.
Does Kevin Siembieda live in a frikken bubble? How can he be totally oblivious to the firestorm that rages out of control on the comment section of his million dollar flagship project?
Prototypes are coming in from the manufacturer, we’re making corrections as needed, approving material for manufacturing, taking one last look over the rule book, laying out the color guide and trying to keep you, our stalwart supporters, in the loop the best we can with our demanding schedule. Excrement is running high as we get closer and closer to manufacturing.
As many of you are aware, I spent some of last week at the GAMA Trade Show in Las Vegas, chatting with retailers and distributors about Robotech® RPG Tactics™ as well as our other game lines. I took many of the prototype game pieces we had, including a few that we hadn't yet shown pics of. Once the show began, and a number of retailers and members of the press starting snapping photos, I thought, “Well, there go my next few planned Kickstarter Updates.” Even when Ninja John received a package the next day containing four new prototypes, soon enough a few people came by and took some shots of them as well. I’m sure many of you have seen those photos, and although I will show those prototype pieces in more detail over the weeks to come, they won’t have that same special, first look feeling.
For those of you who don’t watch the comments of these Updates, here is a sample of photos and video from the event:
The good news is, there was something else at that show that nobody got to see. Romeo from Battle Foam brought the prototype Robotech® RPG Tactics™ carrying bag for me to examine and approve! Check it out.
I know some of the tray photos are blurry (sorry, I didn't realize it until later), but you may notice there are 96 total spaces. That’s exactly the number of pieces that come in Battle Cry, and the tray layouts are designed to hold every piece in the Battle Cry set, as promised. Let me tell you, it was tough finding room for them all, but as long as you don’t go crazy with some of your poses, they should all fit just fine. And of course, you can always purchase pluck foam or custom trays from Battle Foam to suit your specific needs down the line.
Questions Received, Answers Coming
In the past few days, a number of questions have been submitted to us about a few aspects of manufacturing, where things stand, how we’ll proceed in the future, etc. I just wanted to let you know that we have received them, and we’ll answer them as best we can in the next week. I need to confer with the Ninja Division folks for some of the details, but we’ll get back to you as soon as we can.
So they can't be half-arsed to take decent photos. Good to know. Unless they're taking them with a analog camera, there's no reason that they couldn't have taken photos, checked to see if they're blurry and then maybe retaken them. It's almost as if they don't have a clue about presentation
Yeah. If we're generous and assume there are at least a few poses possible, I always figured they'd be like the ones I got with my Malifaux bag; roughly the right size for the base to fit snugly and tall enough for most pieces in the line.
But getting those fairly exacting sizes require things to be fairly far along. For example, the BC bag had to be sized out to account for somewhere around 30 figures that don't even exist yet.
Imagine how annoyed customers would be if they couldn't fit Super VTs in their appropriate slot?
I'm glad I didn't buy in during the campaign, but if they include the figure rectangles as options in the custom foam creator, I could see possibly getting a bag to store and port my stuff around in.
Squares/Rectangles/Circles have been part of their tray creator since day 1.
I've got two trays that are pretty much the same as the ones in the Robotech bag, and I can say this: They are gak. The walls are too thin to provide any support/protection and give way/tear easily.
Is there anything that's unique about the bag configuration? I'm not overly familiar with their lines so to me it looks like their standard bag that's had a logo slapped on it just like any of the ones for infinity, warmachine or any other company. The rest is just squares cut out of the foam, which is par for the course as they offer that for every line or individual that crawls over to BF.
It only took 11 months since the KS? Color me impressed.
paulson games wrote: Is there anything that's unique about the bag configuration? I'm not overly familiar with their lines so to me it looks like their standard bag that's had a logo slapped on it just like any of the ones for infinity, warmachine or any other company. The rest is just squares cut out of the foam, which is par for the course as they offer that for every line or individual that crawls over to BF.
It only took 15 months since the KS? Color me impressed.
Pretty sure it is the same bag as the Warmahordes bag.
Haha, I lump Battlefoam right into the same group as PB and ND. I got 6 or 7 of their trays when they first started up, and was really unimpressed. They wrapped my order in a garbage bag, while the glue was still wet and mailed it to me. The mail, in typical fashion, squished the garbage bag wrapped foam, so when I unwrapped it, it was this unuseable ball of . Getting it replaced was a hassle, and I've had an exceptionally low opinion of those douches since then.
But I agree that they have very thin walls, and their toppers are far thinner than what other companies make. Never bought one of their bags, so I can't opine on those.
paulson games wrote: Is there anything that's unique about the bag configuration? I'm not overly familiar with their lines so to me it looks like their standard bag that's had a logo slapped on it just like any of the ones for infinity, warmachine or any other company. The rest is just squares cut out of the foam, which is par for the course as they offer that for every line or individual that crawls over to BF.
It only took 11 months since the KS? Color me impressed.
Without them telling us the actual size of the trays, I'm not sure. If you're "lucky", you get a unique size tray for a game specialty bag instead of a standard one. I put "lucky" in quotes because frankly I'm not sure its a good thing to have a custom tray size. If the bag is ever discontinued (or contract not renewed with the game company), they'd likely stop making that size and customers would be SOL as opposed to those who use a standard battlefoam size tray. Other than possibly the tray size, you get some minor variation on the size and amount of pockets, the logo on the front, and maybe a place to put patches (at least the Heavy Gear one had that). I recently got (but ordered way back in November) my super discounted 75% off HG bag. At that close out discount, it was actually a good deal for a custom loadout!
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Salacious Greed wrote: Haha, I lump Battlefoam right into the same group as PB and ND. I got 6 or 7 of their trays when they first started up, and was really unimpressed. They wrapped my order in a garbage bag, while the glue was still wet and mailed it to me. The mail, in typical fashion, squished the garbage bag wrapped foam, so when I unwrapped it, it was this unuseable ball of . Getting it replaced was a hassle, and I've had an exceptionally low opinion of those douches since then.
But I agree that they have very thin walls, and their toppers are far thinner than what other companies make. Never bought one of their bags, so I can't opine on those.
They've improved their packing significantly in the meantime. The toppers though, are particularly thin but the foam is sturdier than the GW ones I'm used to so I'm not sure if that makes up partly for that. I haven't actually had the opportunity to use my bag as no one plays HG. My plans to split the bag evenly between HG and Robotech have been stymied by the rolling down the hill delivery date of Robotech.
Salacious Greed wrote: Haha, I lump Battlefoam right into the same group as PB and ND. I got 6 or 7 of their trays when they first started up, and was really unimpressed. They wrapped my order in a garbage bag, while the glue was still wet and mailed it to me. The mail, in typical fashion, squished the garbage bag wrapped foam, so when I unwrapped it, it was this unuseable ball of . Getting it replaced was a hassle, and I've had an exceptionally low opinion of those douches since then.
But I agree that they have very thin walls, and their toppers are far thinner than what other companies make. Never bought one of their bags, so I can't opine on those.
I got one of their bags with the KoWKS. It didn't even come with a topper.
I see cheap arse rifle cases being used for these mini's if I get into the game. Right now after reading this thread..I lost much hype and look fondly at me Battletech Mini's....Ral Patha should have gotten trade rights.you bastage cheap arse @&#^*%$ &@^^($)!^^$ @^$^*%%!#*...
The best thing Palladium can do is try and get their communication lines open with their backers and address the concerns that are being posted. Even if their answers aren't what backers want to hear they at least need to know that their concerns are being heard, deafening silence will only serve to make that rift grow and even normally patient backers will start turning negative if it's allowed to continue. Kevin needs to stop trying to over inflate his posts with artificial cheer and jeer of "best mouth watering news ever, 98% done attitude" and just stick to a factual basis and let people know exactly where the project stands. Drop the hype, ego inflation, and spin it'll go a long way towards repairing your relationship with your backers.
If that doesn't happen? the pitchforks and noise at the gates will probably just get worse.
People are willing to forgive a few screw ups if you can man up to mistakes being made. What they won't forgive is trying to pawn things off with feigned ignorance and bliss. Even if you can't fix the delays or issues with the models you can at least fix your interaction with your backers.
Hmmm...I think Palladium has figured something out from this last update.
Amazing new gap reducing blurry photo technology!
Are these guys even trying anymore? Seriously.
I think the Robotech RRT has been totally back burnered and set on cruise control. They've got their money...'just shut up and leave us alone already!' Seems to be their attitude.
Without them telling us the actual size of the trays, I'm not sure. If you're "lucky", you get a unique size tray for a game specialty bag instead of a standard one. I put "lucky" in quotes because frankly I'm not sure its a good thing to have a custom tray size. If the bag is ever discontinued (or contract not renewed with the game company), they'd likely stop making that size and customers would be SOL as opposed to those who use a standard battlefoam size tray. Other than possibly the tray size, you get some minor variation on the size and amount of pockets, the logo on the front, and maybe a place to put patches (at least the Heavy Gear one had that). I recently got (but ordered way back in November) my super discounted 75% off HG bag. At that close out discount, it was actually a good deal for a custom loadout!
I have high hopes for the Battelfoam bag, I have a pack720 and shield bag and found the trays to be very good quality for protection and transport of the metal/plastic models. I remember Kickstarter updates had a few mentions of the dimemtion of this bag, now looking at the photos I seem like a reband PACK 432 to me. I recall the bag dimemtion is just enough to use PACk foam trays vertically.
paulson games wrote: The best thing Palladium can do is try and get their communication lines open with their backers and address the concerns that are being posted. Even if their answers aren't what backers want to hear they at least need to know that their concerns are being heard, deafening silence will only serve to make that rift grow and even normally patient backers will start turning negative if it's allowed to continue. Kevin needs to stop trying to over inflate his posts with artificial cheer and jeer of "best mouth watering news ever, 98% done attitude" and just stick to a factual basis and let people know exactly where the project stands. Drop the hype, ego inflation, and spin it'll go a long way towards repairing your relationship with your backers.
If that doesn't happen? the pitchforks and noise at the gates will probably just get worse.
People are willing to forgive a few screw ups if you can man up to mistakes being made. What they won't forgive is trying to pawn things off with feigned ignorance and bliss. Even if you can't fix the delays or issues with the models you can at least fix your interaction with your backers.
Hopefully the 10 questions that the KS Backers made will alleviate problems. I don't expect full and complete answers to all the questions, but I do expect some good answers that will help alleviate tensions.
1. Can we get a projected schedule, broken down by dependencies, to allow for product to be shipped to backers before GenCon?
2. How close is the project in regards to completion of the First Wave?
3. The seams in the figures that we’ve been shown appear significant. Is it possible to see versions of the figures that have not been assembled and then disassembled to see how the seams would appear coming off the sprue?
4. The piece-count on these figures seems high, while the options for alternate poses seem limited. Is there anything that can be done to rectify this situation, both to reduce piece-count and increase poseability?
5. Is it possible to miss the GenCon release date, if necessary, to remake the figures with fewer pieces and less noticeable seam-lines?
6. What are the plans to support this game at launch? Will the Megaversal Abassador system be used to help spread and advertise the game? Are the other generations planned for a future release?
7. Can more videos of actual game play be provided? We would like to see videos of games played by experienced testers and players who have only been given the rules with no guidance?
8. Is it possible to have a community organizer interact with us on Kickstarter to provide regular feedback, and not just in the form of updates?
9. What plans are in place to rebuild credibility and goodwill within the backer community?
10. Can we please have detailed pictures of each figure as it gets completed? Both a detailed, assembled 360° set of pictures and also shots on the sprue?
I have high hopes for the Battelfoam bag, I have a pack720 and shield bag and found the trays to be very good quality for protection and transport of the metal/plastic models. I remember Kickstarter updates had a few mentions of the dimemtion of this bag, now looking at the photos I seem like a reband PACK 432 to me. I recall the bag dimemtion is just enough to use PACk foam trays vertically.
The reason the squares bother me so much is because foam is there to protect the minis. Battlefoam is really proud of their laser cut foam - and they should be.
But anyone can cut squares. The only thing special about thing is the symbol on the bag. Yay.
rigeld2 wrote: The reason the squares bother me so much is because foam is there to protect the minis. Battlefoam is really proud of their laser cut foam - and they should be.
But anyone can cut squares. The only thing special about thing is the symbol on the bag. Yay.
Right... but they can only do those fancy shapes when you provide them each individually or if the models are preassembled like with X-wing. They have no way of knowing if you're going to choose an awkward running pose or a goofy standing one so the only thing they can do is make a square that hopefully fits most of the possiblities. They know the general dimensions of a battlepod and how many are in a battlecry pledge so they need that many squares of that average size for them, etc.
Plus, the rectangle matching the base itself limits how much the figures can move around. Sure, it'd be better to have the holes form fit the pieces, but as Warboss noted, unlike some games, it's a lot harder to be certain exactly which poses or options might be chosen.
If I get around to ordering a custom bag, I'll probably get one tier of pluck foam, and then take some of the plucked pieces to glue into the regular rectangles to provide that extra support once I've determined which will be for Battlepods, which will be for VTs in fighter mode, which will be for Defenders, etc, etc.
But that's going to have to wait at least until I've got Wave 1 in hand, and ideally wave 2.
What? They totally could have done detailed cuts for the battlefoam bag. As all the pictures we've gotten so far have been for mono-pose figures. Unless you go for that lock-kneed run pose that they put the Spartan in for GAMA...
They have no way of knowing whether you will put ALL of your arms vertically aligned, horizontally, or somewhere in between. Battlefoam had no way of knowing that palladium would choose such rigid part assembly instead of more wargame industry standard dynamic poses. You can call BF's owner many thi gs (alot of them deservedly negative) but psychic isn't one of them.
rigeld2 wrote: So why the rush to get the foam done?
The foam is useless without minis.
An update in the past already publicly and specifically mentioned that they wouldn't likely get the bags out with wave 1 in may/definitely early june. What rush btw? What possible benefit to either you or BF would be gained by delaying the bags? Whether they get it done tomorrow or 2015, they still don't know exactly how YOU or the other likely hundreds of backers who bought it will individually assemble each and every mini. Despite the multitude of unnecessary parts and lack of posability, there is enough variability between the few goofy poses we can use to exclude custom foam like with Space Hulk or Xwing.
Well, now that delivery is "July, maybe June", perhaps wave one will be more likely to include the bags.
On the downside, it might front load their shipping and handling costs more than just slipping them out at the end of the year with wave two (tee hee).
On the upside, giving the people hardcore enough to pay $100 for a storage/transportation solution might make those people more inclined to use it to play at game shops/tournaments (?), which might help them act as unintentional diplomats of the game (again, from the perspective of PB, who surely believes their pieces are perfect and their game is hot gak on toast), which could in turn boost sales, making it a low cost (they have to ship them eventually anyway) high potential return.
Whether that actually happens or not, of course, remains highly debatable.
Well, depends on how many bags were ordered and how long it takes BF to produce them.
Though it shouldn't be an excuse either way, since if the delivery is late, they could always send them out with wave two.
With the backers cranky as they are now (and more showing up every day to say they're planning to contact their bank/credit card for a refund), holding up 5k packages for a couple dozen bags (I highly doubt they were a popular item at that price point and limited as they are in use, specifically one exact Battle Cry of models) would incite some serious ire.
"Hey guys, we've got some unfortunate news. Battlefoam has informed us that they won't be able to make the July wave 1 date. We know how much you all want a quality foam case to carry around your mouth watering minis in as soon as you get them so we've decided to delay wave 1 2 months to give Battlefoam time to get the cases. We want to please you, the fans, and know that you wouldn't want to want another 6 months till wave 2 to get the case so we're willing to change this based on your feedback."
In the meantime, wave 1 is actually on track to be 3-4 months late past the July date but they don't mention that because there is *someone* else to assign blame to for 60+ days instead of taking responsibilty for the super dimensional fubar.
"In happier news, backers who are attending Gencon will be able to pick up our next two convention exclusive figures! Limited to 500 of each, with a sale price of $25, and beyond that we're even slipping some of wave one by air freight (at no small expense) over to the warehouse, so those who only got a few models during the campaign can pick up some more to start on while the rest makes a slow ocean voyage to the states! How exciting! Can you feel your mouth watering! Ignore the jazz hands behind the curtain!"
In all fairness, if there's a lot of bags owed to backers, it could be a 'big deal' to get them produced as Battlefoam does have limited production capacity. Part of their deal with BF might be to give them adequate lead time so they can produce the trays without slowing down other work too much.
PallyDrone wrote: Kevin does love to surprise folks...how about this.
Palladium has 100 or so RRT boxes flown in and then bundles them with Gen Con exclusive mini's.
I can see that happening. Palladium is going to plow on, ignore the backers and make as big of a splash as possible at the con.
I expect them to have a Gencon exclusive mini especially if they're not able to sell wave 1 due to their own (and Nina Division's) incompetence. They simply don't care what the fallout may be from the people whose money they already have.
I think a better question is whether or not they try to pull the same "omg, we had so little time, we only have 200/500/whatever of the con exclusives!" again.
Because, y'know, that convention that happens every year at the same time of the year really sneaks up on people.
Basically, whether or not they try to leverage artificial scarcity again.
rigeld2 wrote: So why the rush to get the foam done?
The foam is useless without minis.
Battlefoam were (to my mind quite rightly) knocked for failing to get bags out on time for previous KS projects (even when those projects had hit major delays)
They were so late for Sedition Wars CMON decided to not offer 3rd party bags (and other stuff) any more which I'm no doubt cost them in terms of sales
So I think they've now decided that they'll make darn sure that they get bags for KS projects finished on time so this doesn't happen again
Depending on how characters are designed, if it's possible to design a character that reflects the difference between a VF-1A and a VF-1J, you could totally use one in a skirmish game! Like, take the difference between the two, which from the RDF overview in the KS, basically appears to be a higher Gunnery value and Leadership 2, and make a 'generic character' that just adds those to the mech he/she is in!
So while there might not be a "VF-1J support card", you could use a Character to give it the relevant stats. You could even simply add the requisite increase to an existing character (Rick, Roy or Max, for example) to represent the end result in a skirmish with a high enough points value.
The only down side is that to fly Vermillion with all 3, you'd probably need to be playing over 100 points, and would be paying more for a 3A and 1J squadron than you would just by taking a core squad card of VTs, but I'm doing a little outside the box thinking here!
And that is yet another reason why using the points in a skirmish game is the sensible way to do things!
There's supposed to be the ability to make up ones own character. As long as one can spend points to assign a bonus to gunnery and leadership, I don't see why one couldn't just make up "Warboss: VT Pilot: +1 Gunnery, Leadership 2, 10 points" or something and run with it.
I agree it's less than ideal, but we're working with less than ideal material to begin with.
Or they could just make a VF-1J Special card for 25 points, say. Less than you pay for a 1S with lesser results, and I can't see a VT squad with 7As and 2Js be any more overpowered than 7As, 1J and 1S.
I dunno.. if I was naming it after my username, I'd give it +2 gunnery due to the special WWAAAGH! rule.
I was thinking about the KS this weekend when working on an entry in my blog and I came to the conclusion that I just don't seem to have the same interests as Palladium in regards to Robotech. I don't care that the RPG authors studied naval organization and squadron structure to come up with the "crunch" in the RPG books that has given us 4x veritechs in a squadron. I care about the anime source that the game is trying to emulate and the only recognizable squadron where we have a concrete number is 3... vermillion... and it is currently completely impossible to play.
I want figs with a variety of poses including some action ones like
but with a few more traditional ones. I don't however want kits with twice as many parts whose only choice is to assemble them as
or
If the project is suffering massive delays, I want something to tide me over as a pledger who was supposed to have his stuff 6 months ago according to their own post KS estimate... but instead I have to wait likely another 6 months to get anything. On top of that, I suspect if Palladium gets their way, I'll be potentially missing out on yet another set of con exclusives. My guess is though that Ninja Division, with the slow but steady separation from Robotech and Palladium to new projects/money/suckers, will not want to spend their time on con minis this time around. In any case, the publishing of the rules (art free if that is what they're worried about) as a thanks for waiting gesture (as opposed to the middle finger kind exclusive minis that we don't get are) would be the wise course of action. I had such high hopes for Robotech (both the minis, rules, and the community) but frankly I don't see any of the three taking off at this moment.
Thanks... and if they had come out with the project ON THEIR OWN DIME instead of crowdfunding it, I'd have no problem with it. I wouldn't have bought much (maybe just the starter and nothing else) at retail after reviews came out on various blogs and I certainly would NOT have preordered it. If they want to burger king the whole thing and just do it "their way", then they should have paid for it themselves if it wasn't just a really expensive preorder as opposed to crowdfunding an idea.
Also, to facilitate the discussion on the KS comments (I don't want to aggravate myself by logging in there and potentially interacting with the Duncan guy)... here is a 5 minute mashup of various images to hopefully get the scale right for the discussion. It's not perfect but I highly doubt the combo of images are off by more than 5-10% total between them all.
Three times as many parts as a terminator for LESS variety since each terminator has individual body parts that are sculpted differently and all we've been shown on robotech is that one sprue for each model.
Err, assuming one of those two folks on the right aren't one.
They've come up a lot in the recent KS comments debating.
No sign of Duncan lately, but WRRD is back around doing his apologist tour. Him and that NMI guy from the PB forums, can't stand folks who think "look, I know you've been misled or lied to for the last year, but there are reasons behind the scenes, I just can't tell you what those are, y'know, NDAs and other reasons, but believe! Believe, have faith, be patient and be quiet, that'd be swell." routine was old before it started.
Edit: heh, it just hit me. Dwarven Forge's second campaign has a delivery date of November.
There is a non-zero chance DF will run, complete, and deliver on 2 projects before PB delivers on one.
But it does take a bit of converting and more work then I'd want for more than a few models. Converting large numbers I'd pass on particularly since the RTT models are about half the height of these Nichimo kits.
Forar wrote: Any chance you could add a Dreadnought on there?
Err, assuming one of those two folks on the right aren't one.
:-P
No, one is a regular space marine and the other is a terminator. The terminator is probably the best analog for the UEDF mecha in general due to its size and identical 40mm basing whereas the dread is noticeably larger in pretty much every dimension and goes on a 60mm base. I found a better pic with all the spees marineez in a row. From L to R is a space marine, terminator, centurion, and dreadnought.
I only mention it because the number of parts and whatnot of the Dreadnoughts has come up a lot, despite the RRT destroids being, at a glance, significantly smaller (but we wouldn't want to compare them to the smaller, fewer pieces using GW figures, that doesn't match the defender's argument!)
rigeld2 wrote: Hell, even a Dreadnaught is only a dozen pieces or so. Not much more than that for sure. And it's much larger.
Depends on the dread. The starter set dread was only a half dozen but had no pose options without cutting (which I did with two of them). The final product though was VERY good for a starter set dread and looked on par with the full version (which cost alot more but had more options and parts). The 40k starter sets and plastic sprues are VERY well designed even if the final product looks like crap (Taurox transport/Storm Raven/Storm Talon/Cernturions, I'm looking at you!).
Starter set
Note the lack of seams anywhere on the front face.
The terminators were 5 pieces without any seams across the front and offered almost as much posability as the destroids get (just missing the twisting at the waist).
I'm not saying that I want 5 piece destroids like chicken nuggets or one pose to rule them all but there has to be a middle ground between 30 pieces with goofy poses and multiple seams across the front and what I've pictured above.
Swabby wrote: The PB forums have been weirdly quiet.
Quiet, or silenced?
I tend to not bother posting there, even for something as banal as answering a question about advance copies of the rulebook. The tiniest things that get slapped down, it's just not worth bothering with. Which also doesn't bode well for the online community post release. I fully expect these same people to be in charge on the official forums (assuming PB don't just keep it in the middle of that bloated and outdated Forum), slapping down anything slightly critical, and praising the powers that be.
Let's not exaggerate (even on April Fools) about that as those two are evil incarnate. Palladium may be run by incompetent buffoons with overinflated egos but they're not mass murderers. In the end, we're talking about people who make deeply flawed books and are (failing to) make toy soldiers... nothing more.
PallyDrone wrote:You'd have more luck speaking your mind in North Korea or in some Taliban ruled hellhole.
warboss wrote:Let's not exaggerate (even on April Fools) about that as those two are evil incarnate. Palladium may be run by incompetent buffoons with overinflated egos but they're not mass murderers. In the end, we're talking about people who make deeply flawed books and are (failing to) make toy soldiers... nothing more.
I'm currently in a Taliban "rule" hellhole. The populace and fledgling military here are far more optimistic that they're going to throw off the Taliban and take back their country than I am that PB and ND will deliver a worthwhile product.
Warboss, I never really compared sizes, so seeing your pictures above really made me sad. I was under the delusional self impression that a destroid was going to be half again as tall as a terminator. So 20+ parts for a pretty much mono-pose POS has actually made me depressed. I wish they could have been honest about their gak attitude and approach to model making during the campaign. Now the PTSD voices think I should ask for a refund in person with both PB and ND and all this gakky little pissants who think they're making a great product...
I'm guessing the result of the KS questions to Palladium will be this
Wayne : Awww Kevin, those KS people are asking questions again.
Kevin: Oh gosh darn, well, I've asked our fans and they are all 100% happy with everything we've done so it must be something Ninja Division did. Call them with the questions.
Wayne: Right away sir.
2 Days later
Wayne: oh no, my glue stick is empty, how will I add Kevin's changes to the rulebook now? Guess I'll just have to fill time calling Ninja Division until more glue sticks magically order themselves.
Operates phone.
John looks at ringing phone.
John: oh not again
Answers phone
John: Umm err hi, you've reached Ninja Division, we're doing, uh, something else and can't talk to you for a week at least. Bye Wayne.
Wayne: oh bother, I got their machine. Uh, hello, those KS people are asking stuff and Kevin said to let you know. Kevin said its your problem and Kevin said you need to give us the answers so Kevin can present them as his work on his project you ruined. Also, would you be interested in funding our new rulebooks? Bye.
The Palladium forums? Yeah, they've been quiet after one of their moderators went on a locking spree.
Even people talking relatively politely got shut right down.
There's a reason the PB forums are quiet; people have learned that if they don't want someone shutting down topics in a draconian fashion, they need to have discussions on non-PB controlled spaces. Thus here, the KS comments and one fan's unofficial PB page, thought that latter one has seen some discussions get deleted due to being overly hostile, so I don't hold much faith in that one.
If I want to talk openly about the topic, I go to KS or here. Anywhere PB has direct sway is a gamble otherwise.
You'd think they'd be immune to deadline stress at this point, considering even their most strongly worded targets appear to be polite suggestions at best.
Warboss, I never really compared sizes, so seeing your pictures above really made me sad. I was under the delusional self impression that a destroid was going to be half again as tall as a terminator. So 20+ parts for a pretty much mono-pose POS has actually made me depressed. I wish they could have been honest about their gak attitude and approach to model making during the campaign. Now the PTSD voices think I should ask for a refund in person with both PB and ND and all this gakky little pissants who think they're making a great product...
I agree that they should have been honest/realistic with us from the beginning and I had hoped that Ninja Division's involvement would have provided that. Unfortunately, ND has followed Palladium's footsteps/foibles as they now have a pattern of massively delayed projects just like their senior partner. As for the sizes, I hoped that would be the case. When I was enthusiastically promoting the game locally during the KS, I was telling people the intro pledge got you almost 100 terminator+ sized models for $140 as it seemed like the closest, most accurate (but not entirely accurate) comparison. Seeing people compare destroids to dreads and others just taking that as the truth got me thinking that I should do some sort of pic so that people can decide on their own about the size. While the zentraedi are obviously bigger, the UEDF is close enough.
That’s today’s forecast. And I think that’s how I’ve been feeling the last week or two. There have been moments when I’ve felt enthusiastic, positive and sunny, and other times that I’ve felt worn out and cloudy — gloomy and frustrated. I think a lot of that comes from working constantly, for months, putting in long hours, and working weekends, yet somehow we’re still behind schedule on new releases and release dates continue to slip. Waaaah. We’re a small company of six people, so when one book slips, they all get pushed back. It is as frustrating as Hell. Especially when you know you’re giving it your all, but your all isn't good enough. It brings you down.
While I am writing slower than I like, apparently it’s pure gold. Alex came in this morning to say, “The latest batch of Northern Gun material was great. I could really picture it all. I know you’re feeling like the writing isn’t coming easy, but you’d never know it from what you’re handing us. I think you’re at the top of your game. People are going to love this book.”
That’s great to hear, and it’s nice to have a cheerleader like Alex in your corner. You know, a guy who tells it like it is and doesn’t blow sunshine up your behind. So when he says something is good, you know it’s good. Heck, all the guys are like that. Some days I wish they were yes-men, but not really. I like getting honest criticism and feedback even when it is harsh at times. It’s what helps me keep the level of quality strong. Of course, I tend to be my harshest critic, so it’s good to know I’m hitting on all cylinders when I’m so not sure myself.
That’s part of the problem working on a big book (more than 160 pages), it’s like running a marathon. Toward the end, you’re running on instinct and sheer force of will. And that finish line can’t appear soon enough.
I finally feel like I’m getting my writing rhythm back. Yesterday was pretty productive and I’m feeling hot writing today, so I’m going to get back to it.
Yeah. The bit where he goes on about how Alex is such a tough customer, and doesn't want people blowing sunshine, is kind of odd juxtaposed against... someone giving him glowing feedback.
If I ever attend a convention that PB has a presence at, I'm getting a "SHOW, DON'T TELL" t-shirt made up and making sure I get a couple of pictures at their booth. Preferably if I'm having a nice chat with a couple of their employees at the time.
You know, for someone who never holds anything back and is a straight shooter and isn't a yes man and doesn't blow smoke up his ass, he sure always loves whatever Kevin gacks out.
Sun and Clouds – April 2, 2014 That’s great to hear, and it’s nice to have a cheerleader like Alex in your corner. You know, a guy who tells it like it is and doesn’t blow sunshine up your behind. So when he says something is good, you know it’s good. Heck, all the guys are like that. Some days I wish they were yes-men, but not really. I like getting honest criticism and feedback even when it is harsh at times. It’s what helps me keep the level of quality strong. Of course, I tend to be my harshest critic, so it’s good to know I’m hitting on all cylinders when I’m so not sure myself.
So models with clunky poses, incorrect bases, no optional gun cluster bits, unnecessarily fiddly parts, and multiple large seams across the front facing is the result of a process involving critical evaluation and feedback? What the hell did they look like before?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forar wrote: Yeah. The bit where he goes on about how Alex is such a tough customer, and doesn't want people blowing sunshine, is kind of odd juxtaposed against... someone giving him glowing feedback.
If I ever attend a convention that PB has a presence at, I'm getting a "SHOW, DON'T TELL" t-shirt made up and making sure I get a couple of pictures at their booth. Preferably if I'm having a nice chat with a couple of their employees at the time.
I will pay you the symbolic (but totally real) sum of $1 USD if you instead get a pic of yourself talking to Kevin with a sticker of a ceiling fan on one butt cheek of your pants and a sun on the other. The name tag with your choice of Palladium White Knight username is optional but recommended.
So models with clunky poses, incorrect bases, no optional gun cluster bits, unnecessarily fiddly parts, and multiple large seams across the front facing is the result of a process involving critical evaluation and feedback? What the hell did they look like before?
Now, I know Palladium and Ninja Division make great targets and deserve heaps of blame, but the one party that makes me wonder is the manufacturer. At some point, shouldn't they have had a little professionalism or given ND the benefit of their experience? Even the people who make Happy Meal toys can plan seams and mold lines better than we've seen on these models. It makes me wonder how they chose this manufacturer.
PD: So, we're agreed then that you'll make these miniatures for ridiculously cheap and let us skim off the KS money?
Manufacturer: I feel it is my ethical duty to remind you once again that we only make toilet parts in this factory. Just valve assemblies, spouts and floaters for non-namebrand toilets. We aren't even Swisher or Sloan quality. If we make your product, you may find yourself vulnerable to legal and probably even extralegal complications. Do you understand? Your models will look like ersatz toilet pieces.
It's a bit of both. I conflated their names in my mind, much as a scientist and a fly may be conflated in a teleporter booth, or a mecha and a tinker toy might be conflated in a 3D printer.
Forar wrote: Yeah. The bit where he goes on about how Alex is such a tough customer, and doesn't want people blowing sunshine, is kind of odd juxtaposed against... someone giving him glowing feedback.
If I ever attend a convention that PB has a presence at, I'm getting a "SHOW, DON'T TELL" t-shirt made up and making sure I get a couple of pictures at their booth. Preferably if I'm having a nice chat with a couple of their employees at the time.
I will pay you the symbolic (but totally real) sum of $1 USD if you instead get a pic of yourself talking to Kevin with a sticker of a ceiling fan on one butt cheek of your pants and a sun on the other. The name tag with your choice of Palladium White Knight username is optional but recommended.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Now, I know Palladium and Ninja Division make great targets and deserve heaps of blame, but the one party that makes me wonder is the manufacturer. At some point, shouldn't they have had a little professionalism or given ND the benefit of their experience? Even the people who make Happy Meal toys can plan seams and mold lines better than we've seen on these models. It makes me wonder how they chose this manufacturer.
PD: So, we're agreed then that you'll make these miniatures for ridiculously cheap and let us skim off the KS money?
Manufacturer: I feel it is my ethical duty to remind you once again that we only make toilet parts in this factory. Just valve assemblies, spouts and floaters for non-namebrand toilets. We aren't even Swisher or Sloan quality. If we make your product, you may find yourself vulnerable to legal and probably even extralegal complications. Do you understand? Your models will look like ersatz toilet pieces.
PD: Cool. Here comes the money!
Pure Douche? You could have went with NB, for No Balls.
Either way, I don't think they chose for the option where the factory points out what complete and utter gakkers they are, and it is probably a running joke how bad these models are going to be. In point of fact, they may win an award for turning out the worst US product of the year...
I know next to nothing about HG, but do those guys not really care about their derivitive product either? Surely they could disapprove the model based on how sad it is.
I know next to nothing about HG, but do those guys not really care about their derivitive product either? Surely they could disapprove the model based on how sad it is.
They pretty much only care about milking off their ridiculous exclusivity to Macross.
Forar wrote: Yeah. The bit where he goes on about how Alex is such a tough customer, and doesn't want people blowing sunshine, is kind of odd juxtaposed against... someone giving him glowing feedback.
If I ever attend a convention that PB has a presence at, I'm getting a "SHOW, DON'T TELL" t-shirt made up and making sure I get a couple of pictures at their booth. Preferably if I'm having a nice chat with a couple of their employees at the time.
I will pay you the symbolic (but totally real) sum of $1 USD if you instead get a pic of yourself talking to Kevin with a sticker of a ceiling fan on one butt cheek of your pants and a sun on the other. The name tag with your choice of Palladium White Knight username is optional but recommended.
You should Kickstart this. I'd totally back you.
Normally, I'd say poppycock but in a world where flying assault butts went from a dakka thread joke to a funded project.. it could happen. I suspect Forar and I could deliver before Palladium as well.
So models with clunky poses, incorrect bases, no optional gun cluster bits, unnecessarily fiddly parts, and multiple large seams across the front facing is the result of a process involving critical evaluation and feedback? What the hell did they look like before?
Don't be ridiculous. There is no way that is a Palladium WIP model as none of the gaping seams are visible from the front!!
warboss wrote: Normally, I'd say poppycock but in a world where flying assault butts went from a dakka thread joke to a funded project.. it could happen. I suspect Forar and I could deliver before Palladium as well.
Send Forar to Gencon, with the express purpose of using every ounce of mockery, sarcasm, snark and smarm he can level at Palladium Books. It won't get you your Battle Cry boxes any faster, but relish every moment as he wears a selection of mocking shirts (ranging from subtle to "okay, not even trying to hide it, remotely"; at the right tier, you even get to design a shirt! (shirt must be approved by Forar and Warboss, nothing that would get him ejected from Gencon)).
Silly stickers, buttons of solidarity, community designed shirt, and at the higher tier (due to cost of production and shipping based on weight), your very own commemorative "Feth Palladium Books, Seriously: Challenge Coin", made from an alloy containing actual elemental Palladium. On one side, dolla dolla bills, on the other, a turd.
Receive actual updates as production goes forward, hear of our challenges, mock us in the comments (I know I have it coming!), and share in the community that has risen up and decided "No more KS on KS!"
warboss wrote: Normally, I'd say poppycock but in a world where flying assault butts went from a dakka thread joke to a funded project.. it could happen. I suspect Forar and I could deliver before Palladium as well.
Send Forar to Gencon, with the express purpose of using every ounce of mockery, sarcasm, snark and smarm he can level at Palladium Books. It won't get you your Battle Cry boxes any faster, but relish every moment as he wears a selection of mocking shirts (ranging from subtle to "okay, not even trying to hide it, remotely"; at the right tier, you even get to design a shirt! (shirt must be approved by Forar and Warboss, nothing that would get him ejected from Gencon)).
Silly stickers, buttons of solidarity, community designed shirt, and at the higher tier (due to cost of production and shipping based on weight), your very own commemorative "Feth Palladium Books, Seriously: Challenge Coin", made from an alloy containing actual elemental Palladium. On one side, dolla dolla bills, on the other, a turd.
Receive actual updates as production goes forward, hear of our challenges, mock us in the comments (I know I have it coming!), and share in the community that has risen up and decided "No more KS on KS!"
Coming Soon(R, C, TM)!
I agree but with the stipulation that the coin be minted in 14 different parts needing assembly with seams running right across both the text and the turd relief (but none along the edge of the coin where they might not be seen). I don't know about you but I feel like we're 98% done with the work already and ready to go into production within 30-40 days of the end of the crowdfunding.
Forar wrote: Yeah. The bit where he goes on about how Alex is such a tough customer, and doesn't want people blowing sunshine, is kind of odd juxtaposed against... someone giving him glowing feedback.
If I ever attend a convention that PB has a presence at, I'm getting a "SHOW, DON'T TELL" t-shirt made up and making sure I get a couple of pictures at their booth. Preferably if I'm having a nice chat with a couple of their employees at the time.
I will pay you the symbolic (but totally real) sum of $1 USD if you instead get a pic of yourself talking to Kevin with a sticker of a ceiling fan on one butt cheek of your pants and a sun on the other. The name tag with your choice of Palladium White Knight username is optional but recommended.
You should Kickstart this. I'd totally back you.
That took a while to explain the background to my wife but she burst out laughing with that punchline.
Thanks! Hey, if Palladium isn't going to provide us with enjoyment via updates then we'll have some deservedly at their expense.
One interesting comment from Red Duke I saw this morning is that there are space combat rules. Did they mention that during the KS? I'm curious if they're different substantially from the normal ones (i.e. vector physics or somesuch) or if everything just suddenly flies 2" at least and there is usually no terrain/cover.
There could be some terrain in space. Floating bits of Macross Island, asteroids, wrecked hulks/debris from ships, sections of hull on one side or the other (though having part of both a Zentraedi ship and the SDF-1 on the board would require them being within spitting distance of one another unless the board was the size of a football field).
I mean, I agree, but at the same time the setting does allow for more on the table than just a few asteroids, X-Wing style.
That said, Mike's rules has an entire table about how various environments affect mech movement. I really hope it's not nearly that complicated. He said to ignore the 'changing elevation section', which is good, because I think many players eyes would start to cross if they had to reference that and then run the math every time they ran up or down a hill (different adjustments for each, of course).
Forar wrote: There could be some terrain in space. Floating bits of Macross Island, asteroids, wrecked hulks/debris from ships, sections of hull on one side or the other (though having part of both a Zentraedi ship and the SDF-1 on the board would require them being within spitting distance of one another unless the board was the size of a football field).
I mean, I agree, but at the same time the setting does allow for more on the table than just a few asteroids, X-Wing style.
True but that is what I referred to with "usually no terrain" but in retrospect it might not have been clear. I'd expect on a space table to have maybe a dozen small pieces of terrain equivalent to individual trees and maybe 0-2 bigger ones but not more than that persoanlly. Whereas on a planet setting, I'd expect some cover to be the most common state but in space no cover to be the most common. The lack of real cover would make any electronic warfare that might provide "virtual cover" more important (like ECM spoofing by recon pods or VEFs).. but I'm not sure if rules exist for that in Robotech.. because.. you know...
I think it would be a nice change of pace from terrestrial battles to have little to no cover in some games.
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
"Molds are being cut. Waiting for the final prototypes of the Valkyries for our final approval. Making the last fine tuning to text, rules, decals and other stuff. Can hardly wait to get the First Wave into manufacturing! When we have something much more definitive YOU will be the first to know."
Molds are being cut... so the best they can do now is tweak little things like adding extra details but they can't remove any nor change up the parts. I guess we're getting the cheap looking models after all unfortunately... on top of the unknown quantity (to all of us except Mike) of the rules... 8 months late at best. At least palladium is consistent(ly bad).
Ugh, if they just started cutting the molds, they won't be done with that until the end of April. Production runs until at least end of May. On a boat the entire month of June. So won't hit Palladium until mid-July at best most likely. That is IF everything goes perfectly between now and then.
Nothing about PB or ND leads me to believe or wager anything on perfection from either company or the plumbing manufacturer they have making our plastic dollies. I guess I need to search the internet for a sad panda avatar...
The Dreamforge thread had the creator mention that he needed to correct the tooling at least three times to get it right. Sometimes he had to make concessions and other times he made the production team come up with new ways to cut the models to get acceptable results. From the look of the models and the cuts, it appears with Robotech only the former happened.
Eh, welcome to 2013. :( In any case, there is REAL news there in that the moulds are being cut. Just think... when all the wave one moulds are ready to be cut, we'll finally be at the point the kickstarter said we'd be at back in June 2013!... at least for Wave 1 but not including the half the sculpts coming at some unannounced date in 2015 at this pace.
Month for cutting, month for production, month for shipping, time to Palladium's warehouse, and whatever weeks might be left over to sort out and ship thousands of packages, mere weeks before the largest convention they'll attend all year.
Yup, no way a snag could arise there! Customs, weather, shipping delays (boat and truck alike), retooling, QA, and untold hundreds of other potential issues, none of those could possibly kick in!
Been lurking for awhile, read the comments but can't still figure out why the backlash to kick starters? Isn't kickstarter a medium for us to back projects interesting to us? And not a shopping cart? I'm just glad the developer is still willing to complete this project with this sort of negativity from its supporters.
I'm in for a battlecry and a bag. I thought about buying more during the kickstarter but decided it is too risky for a new company. Overall I'm still impress with the effort and results so far. I think it comes down to perspective. I know they won't be the gw quality nor did they charge gw prices.
So far I've backed this, relic knight and dead zone. All of which I spend around 200 on each, so far none I regret yet, until I have the models in my hands, painted them up, played a few games I won't judge a game I potentially play until I'm retired. Btw deadzone passed with flying colours in that count. I'm hoping robotech will be the same.
wufai wrote: Been lurking for awhile, read the comments but can't still figure out why the backlash to kick starters? Isn't kickstarter a medium for us to back projects interesting to us? And not a shopping cart? I'm just glad the developer is still willing to complete this project with this sort of negativity from its supporters.
They have a legal obligation to complete the project; please keep that in mind that they're not doing all this out of the goodness of their corporate hearts but to continue to sell a game line after the kickstarter as well. Also, yes, it is not supposed to be a shopping cart but instead an interactive process to develop the minis to the specification set out in the kickstarter description. Objectively and without a doubt, they failed on the time table as at best the project will be 6-8 months for ANY part and they failed for months at a time to keep the pledgers informed about the TRUE progress all the way up until December at which point it was 100% impossible for them to meet their own goals that THEY THEMSELVES set. Subjectively, they failed to deliver the quality they advertised but we only know that now since they broke their own promises to keep us both informed and a part of the development.
Erm... yeah, might as well crack a couple cold ones and read through the whole thread. If you can honestly say you've read all 127 pages (I know I have) and still don't know why people have misgivings and concerns, then there's not much point trying to clarify further.
Those prices would be pretty bad for plastic models of any quality, assuming the company wanted to sell a lot of them.
"We got a niche product here we wanna sell for skirmish prices. Better pay the big bucks to pay for plastic tooling so we can spend pennies to choke the landfills with our dead product."
wufai wrote: Been lurking for awhile, read the comments but can't still figure out why the backlash to kick starters? Isn't kickstarter a medium for us to back projects interesting to us? And not a shopping cart? I'm just glad the developer is still willing to complete this project with this sort of negativity from its supporters.
Lol, wut? I'm sorry, are our mean but totally factual criticisms hurting his wittle feelings? And this quote is just hilarious. So you feel people can say 'screw this, I'm taking my ball home' despite having taken money from thousands of backers just because they had their feelings hurt? Are you the KS creator who burned his own KSed book?
I'm in for a battlecry and a bag. I thought about buying more during the kickstarter but decided it is too risky for a new company. Overall I'm still impress with the effort and results so far. I think it comes down to perspective. I know they won't be the gw quality nor did they charge gw prices.
Uh what? Palladium isn't a new company. Also, let's compare the prices they charged compared to say...DFG then. How does that stack up? Probably not in favor of your argument
Mike has (had) his war on vulgarity on his Facebook page, but is perfectly ok (I'm guessing) letting this through:
Alex Clarke: " lol. yup. solid model locked in a single pose with virtually no chance of it ever being converted to a different stance. Life is like a teenager's vagina, no matter how perfect it is in reality, there's always someone who wants to bitch about how it could be better. If the spartan was on that same spruce with the same molding process, the 2 of you would still be bitching in here about something being wrong with it. Good to know I haven't missed a damn thing being away from this group for the last week. Interesting how the posts here have gone from insightful and creative to a degraded copy and paste cryfest from the KS site. Really is a turn off for someone who is here to get away from the bs on the official site." and "When you can translate that into English, I'll be here to read it." and he still swore...a lot.
I mean it screams to me "Blah, you have a different opinion. BLAHHH." tossing in some swears and highly inappropriate comments. And they complain about others whining, when they troll people showcasing their opinions. Don't mean to keep ranting on stuff like this, but there are other ways to express an opposing opinion in a more constructive way.
wufai wrote: I know they won't be the gw quality nor did they charge gw prices.
The UEDF Destroid Pack contains 4 models and has a MSRP of $32.95
The UEDF Valkyrie Wing 6 Models at $36.95
The Zentraedi Command Pack with 3 is also $36.95.
Those seem pretty close to GW prices to me.
None of us paid MSRP prices through their KS. and none knew the quality of the models during the KS except for a hand sketch or a 3D render. So why complain when the modeling process is not what you have in mind? I just think the judgement should be reserved for the end product, after building/painting/playing and not during the manufacturing process. iirc there are around 90 game pieces in Battlecry for $140, which is $1.5 for each game model. At this price my standard is indeed pretty low, considering a GW 5man kit now costs $42CAD before 13% tax.
Here's another thought, what are you guys expecting from this game when you sign in to this KS? I would really like to know the reason to understand why you hate the game now and demending refunds? For me I would like a playable Robotech wargame with cool models that I can display on my glass cabinent when not in use. I like the Robotech/Macross universe. I've build the bandai models and played the PS3 games and watched the anime. I thought it would be cool to have a fully painted wargame based on the universe and since my asian friends who are also into Marcoss don't know about wargamming it will be a great head turner for them. The multiparts/gaps/delay issues hasn't deter me because they are all a one time thing. When the product finally ships I will never worry about the shipping issue again, and after building the models I will never deal with the multiparts/gaps issue.
So again, what was your reason/goal/vision when you initally backed the Robotech KS? and what has now changed your mind?
wufai wrote: I know they won't be the gw quality nor did they charge gw prices.
The UEDF Destroid Pack contains 4 models and has a MSRP of $32.95
The UEDF Valkyrie Wing 6 Models at $36.95
The Zentraedi Command Pack with 3 is also $36.95.
Those seem pretty close to GW prices to me.
Not really considering the UEDF stuff is closest to terminators in size and those are $50 for 5 (so $10 each)... The zentraedi stuff is significantly larger than terminators yet (except for the command pack) only about $6 per mini. Then factor in that GW strongly enforces a max 20% off discount which Palladium won't at retail along with the KS prices being cheaper than the above for add ons (let alone the battlecry pledge discount) and we're coming in way under GW prices. The problem is that from the look of the minis we're getting what we paid for instead of the mouth watering designs we were promised.
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wufai wrote: I just think the judgement should be reserved for the end product, after building/painting/playing and not during the manufacturing process. iirc there are around 90 game pieces in Battlecry for $140, which is $1.5 for each game model. At this price my standard is indeed pretty low, considering a GW 5man kit now costs $42CAD before 13% tax.
Here's another thought, what are you guys expecting from this game when you sign in to this KS? I would really like to know the reason to understand why you hate the game now and demending refunds? For me I would like a playable Robotech wargame with cool models that I can display on my glass cabinent when not in use. I like the Robotech/Macross universe. I've build the bandai models and played the PS3 games and watched the anime. I thought it would be cool to have a fully painted wargame based on the universe and since my asian friends who are also into Marcoss don't know about wargamming it will be a great head turner for them. The multiparts/gaps/delay issues hasn't deter me because they are all a one time thing. When the product finally ships I will never worry about the shipping issue again, and after building the models I will never deal with the multiparts/gaps issue.
So again, what was your reason/goal/vision when you initally backed the Robotech KS? and what has now changed your mind?
I bolded the pertinent parts. Palladium has set the expectations and they said they were releasing a top notch wargame in full plastic with mouth watering minis. If they had instead said they were coming out with some cheap mediocre monopose models with 2-3x the part count of similarly sized miniatures (not models but miniatures), I suspect the expectations of fans, the comments about the KS, and MOST IMPORTANTLY the pledged funds total would have been different. I base my expectations on what I was promised before paying, not on what I paid and I don't think I'm the only one. I didn't pledge too much luckily because of my mistrust of Palladium (hell, even pledging was a leap of faith apparently into a black hole of delays). As for the last part, I don't see the gaps as a one time thing. I got in at battlecry so I see it as a 96+ time thing.
If you check out the Ninja Division facebook page (it was linked somewhere on the KS comments), you'll see constant comments about no Robotech presence. They aren't showing apparently anything about the biggest project they've ever worked on this year despite it being the primary focus last year. I guess they only show off what they're currently trying to fund and if they already have your money then "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!"
warboss wrote: If you check out the Ninja Division facebook page (it was linked somewhere on the KS comments), you'll see constant comments about no Robotech presence. They aren't showing apparently anything about the biggest project they've ever worked on this year despite it being the primary focus last year. I guess they only show off what they're currently trying to fund and if they already have your money then "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!"
Link to the Anima, Helldoraddo, and Relic Knights kickstarters that are currently running, please?
My suspicion, based on nothing more than a pattern of past behavior, is that at this point Kevin has already kicked Alessio's & NDs work to the curb and is in the final stages of "fixing" it.
Hence we have models that look like the designer once opened a Bandai kit and then gave it to his 10 year old...
And ND not advertising the project as its not their baby anymore, but they have to much professionalism to throw PB under the bus.
But that could just be fanboi boosterism speaking.
ThaneCawdor wrote: My suspicion, based on nothing more than a pattern of past behavior, is that at this point Kevin has already kicked Alessio's & NDs work to the curb and is in the final stages of "fixing" it.
Hence we have models that look like the designer once opened a Bandai kit and then gave it to his 10 year old...
And ND not advertising the project as its not their baby anymore, but they have to much professionalism to throw PB under the bus.
But that could just be fanboi boosterism speaking.
ND didn't show off the sculpts at GAMA. Showing off the product is PBs thing. ND can't post anything about RRT until PB has done so. So they can't have the models and show them, demo the game or anything because it isn't their product. PB are the twits who don't show up to the biggest miniatures weekend in the country, because they don't know gak about the miniatures market.
Ninja Pop doesn't have too much professionalism to throw PB under the bus. They would probably have to cough up a fair chunk of change since they are the contracted party to make all of the models for RRT. Apart from the fact that the models look like they're manufactured for 1980s Happy Meals, they hold most of the responsibility for the digital sculpting and getting them from that to being actual physical miniatures. Since we have no physical miniatures, not much they can throw PB under the bus for. Well, I suppose they could complain that PB didn't hold their feet to the fire and make them design better models. So, win win for PB and ND both.
warboss wrote: If you check out the Ninja Division facebook page (it was linked somewhere on the KS comments), you'll see constant comments about no Robotech presence. They aren't showing apparently anything about the biggest project they've ever worked on this year despite it being the primary focus last year. I guess they only show off what they're currently trying to fund and if they already have your money then "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!"
Link to the Anima, Helldoraddo, and Relic Knights kickstarters that are currently running, please?
Adepticon 2013...
Spoiler:
Adepticon 2014...
Spoiler:
I'll give you one guess what they're trying to sell you each time. PROTIP: Look at the only big banner that isn't their company's name.
warboss wrote: If you check out the Ninja Division facebook page (it was linked somewhere on the KS comments), you'll see constant comments about no Robotech presence. They aren't showing apparently anything about the biggest project they've ever worked on this year despite it being the primary focus last year. I guess they only show off what they're currently trying to fund and if they already have your money then "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!"
Link to the Anima, Helldoraddo, and Relic Knights kickstarters that are currently running, please?
Adepticon 2013...
Spoiler:
Adepticon 2014...
Spoiler:
I'll give you one guess what they're trying to sell you each time. PROTIP: Look at the only big banner that isn't their company's name.
In your bottom pick it looks like they're running demos for Relic Knights and Helldorado...
warboss wrote: If you check out the Ninja Division facebook page (it was linked somewhere on the KS comments), you'll see constant comments about no Robotech presence. They aren't showing apparently anything about the biggest project they've ever worked on this year despite it being the primary focus last year. I guess they only show off what they're currently trying to fund and if they already have your money then "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!"
Alright I can agree to this. But I don't see anything drastically wrong with it. Here's my analysis.
I seems that the marketing job for Robotech has been handed back to PB. At least the kickstarter update the promotion materials is handled by PB. So it makes sense ND stopped promoting it as it is PB product. PB now handles the online store front for Robotech products as well. So why still relay on ND for Robotech updates? Their job with Robotech seem to be complete to me.
ND seem to now handle their own publishing as well. and Forgotten Kings is their first attempt. So kudos to them for promoting it at adaptcon! I would spend my advertisitng dollars at it too since it is still on Kickstarter and has the potential at making money at this point.
I don't disagree with them not promoting other product like Relic Knights. These products are in production stage and not yet ready for public retail. Why promote something that your customers cannot buy at this point?
What I would say is that I don't entirely trust ND and their team after reading some stuff online. It seems that ND has part ways with coolminiornot with the RK and SDE line, and seems to cut ties with PB as well with Robotech, both products has not reach retail distribution yet. So technically ND really has nothing to show for itself. There is a red flag somewhere if you cut ties with 2 publishing companies before any of the products is released.
So in summary, I don't think ND cares for Robotech anymore, its in the hands of PB now and given I paid roughly $1.5 per model I can't really complain if the results are subpar. I will make myself a nice painted set and call it an end for the Robotech line.
@Wulfai
I am sorry but that is so wrong, ND got a fair slice of the pie and were supposed to be the "miniatures" experts for this project including the exciting ruleset.
2013 they are ful lof it promoting this as the next big thing and 2014 nothing - something stinks here methinks.
Agreed the price per model is low but so is the price of green army men to GW, this issue is quality. So far nothing shown seems to match up to the extravagant claims of last year and even the prototypes they used for the demos. Of course I can and should compain if what is presented is sub par - look at GW finecast and its issues and those models were streets ahead of what we have seen here.
So I have paid and now wait and wait and wait, until Kevin and Pally books decide we are worth talking to again - almost feels like he is that spoillt kid we shouted at and now he is taking his ball back home.
Sorry for the rant and it is not directed at you but is the frustration of PB and ND not coming clean to their backers.
Thanks. I was basing my info on the pics that they posted and they focused their own pics on the current funding project. I stand corrected in that they're not ignoring all their previously funded project but rather just Robotech...
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Cypher-xv wrote: Here's some scale shots of Max with some GW models.
Spoiler:
Did anyone catch the moron who compared the new IG vehicle to a persons finger? What an idiot. It's much bigger than a RRT model.
Thanks for the pics; I embedded them in the spoiler tags above. So, at least using the metal con special minis (so insert disclaimer here), they're a bit taller than a terminator but have less girth to them... all in all likely the same volume as one. Also, I like your cataphracti terminator and contemptor dread... plus the deathwatch book!
Also, wufai, your calls for people to be patient and wait to see the figures in hand was something I wanted to address earlier;
While it may seem frustrating to feel like it's nothing but dozens or hundreds of voices screaming in the comments, they are still barely starting production. NOW is the *perfect* time for people to voice their concerns, as now may be the last opportunity we have to influence that production line. Once the molds are milled and they've pumped out half a million sprues of plastic, it's going to be a wee bit late to do anything about it. This isn't something where they'll get feedback and decide to re-do the entire run and ship it out of their pockets. That's it. What we see when we open the boxes (terrible seam placements, massive gaps, obnoxious piece counts and all) is what we get.
So yeah, no, I see no reason to quietly wait another 4/6/32 months for them to deliver before giving critique and feedback if there seems to be a heightened risk that gak is exactly what I'm going to get when I open those boxes.
I agree forar. Bringing up concerns now is appropriate and not later when it's too late. That would be like having issues with the dinner at the wedding reception hall when trying out the food but ONLY voicing concerns at the actual wedding when it is already on 200 plates. In the end though, Palladium will just do whatever they want just like they've done for decades with the RPG side. They'll post some crap murmur about constructive criticism and how stuff doesn't get rubber stamped and how true fans just love it while real constructive criticism gets deleted/locked on the forums unread by the powers that be.
Wufai, my issue is that I was well aware of PB and their business practices and backed this under the pretence that this was being handled by ND. The moment the campaign ended PB took over and all their usual crap started.
Seeing that they have started tooling, and the garbage that has been previewed, I emailed them today asking for a refund. Once I get a form-letter reply that will quote the delays (not mentioned in my email) I will crank it up a notch.
Honestly, skipping Adepticon isn't sitting right with me.
ND had a big voice there last year. If there were two events I'd do to show off the game and build hype, it'd be Gencon and Adepticon. 3 if you add the Gama trade show, 4 if you want to inexplicably add the Detroit Fan Fare they were at last year, but seriously, skipping Adepticon seems unwise from my perspective. Maybe Wayne is still recovering from Gama, but it seems so strange for it to be missed this year.
Oh well, hindsight and all, just something that's been gnawing at me.
I think PB didn't attend adepticon is so they won't get laughed at. I recall didn't PB and ND both talk a big game there last year? I think even Wayne and Jeff are realizing that there putting out subpar "miniatures".
Maybe Alex told them the models look great. Good thing he's there to keep it real. Glad to see PB isn't full of yes men.
Cypher-xv wrote: I think PB didn't attend adepticon is so they won't get laughed at. I recall didn't PB and ND both talk a big game there last year? I think even Wayne and Jeff are realizing that there putting out subpar "miniatures".
Maybe Alex told them the models look great. Good thing he's there to keep it real. Glad to see PB isn't full of yes men.
Cypher-xv wrote: I think PB didn't attend adepticon is so they won't get laughed at. I recall didn't PB and ND both talk a big game there last year? I think even Wayne and Jeff are realizing that there putting out subpar "miniatures".
Maybe Alex told them the models look great. Good thing he's there to keep it real. Glad to see PB isn't full of yes men.
*Jazz Hands*
No, we don't even get jazz hands. More than a week after receiving the KS backers "Ten Questions", and ending their last update with a promise to answer "next week" (that being this week), and getting nothing but Kevin's "We're going into production soon! We promise!" Murmur, we get silence.
If I was a betting man, I'd put it on "Ninja Division went to Adepticon, and wouldn't answer our questions", ignoring the fact that they had the questions last Saturday and Adepticon didn't start until Thursday (so give them Wednesday as a travel day), and ignoring why Robotech Tactics chose to skip what is apparently one of the largest miniatures conventions* in the US. Even though most of the questions shouldn't have needed "consultation" to begin with.
Palladium Books, treating their fanbase like crap for over 20 years.
Cypher-xv wrote: I think PB didn't attend adepticon is so they won't get laughed at. I recall didn't PB and ND both talk a big game there last year? I think even Wayne and Jeff are realizing that there putting out subpar "miniatures".
Maybe Alex told them the models look great. Good thing he's there to keep it real. Glad to see PB isn't full of yes men.
*Jazz Hands*
No, we don't even get jazz hands. More than a week after receiving the KS backers "Ten Questions", and ending their last update with a promise to answer "next week" (that being this week), and getting nothing but Kevin's "We're going into production soon! We promise!" Murmur, we get silence.
If I was a betting man, I'd put it on "Ninja Division went to Adepticon, and wouldn't answer our questions", ignoring the fact that they had the questions last Saturday and Adepticon didn't start until Thursday (so give them Wednesday as a travel day), and ignoring why Robotech Tactics chose to skip what is apparently one of the largest miniatures conventions* in the US. Even though most of the questions shouldn't have needed "consultation" to begin with.
Palladium Books, treating their fanbase like crap for over 20 years.
I believe I addressed what happened in regards to communication a page or so back.
Why would they attend Adepticon? Being that it's the year's largest miniatures event when they are clearly making "scale model game pieces" and not miniatures.
It would be like entering an ugly ass stray cat in a purebred dog show.
They need to work conventions that favor RPG crowds who lack any wargaming perspective and won't care what "mouth watering quality" they are buying and won't laugh at Palladium's products. PB can't stand the heat and backlash so they are staying out of the kitchen.
Thanks. I was basing my info on the pics that they posted and they focused their own pics on the current funding project. I stand corrected in that they're not ignoring all their previously funded project but rather just Robotech...
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Cypher-xv wrote: Here's some scale shots of Max with some GW models.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler
Did anyone catch the moron who compared the new IG vehicle to a persons finger? What an idiot. It's much bigger than a RRT model.
Thanks for the pics; I embedded them in the spoiler tags above. So, at least using the metal con special minis (so insert disclaimer here), they're a bit taller than a terminator but have less girth to them... all in all likely the same volume as one. Also, I like your cataphracti terminator and contemptor dread... plus the deathwatch book!
I could live with the models flaws, I could live with the delays, I could even deal with their casual attitude towards us. But taken altogether along with the dishonesty? No. They have a lot to atone for before I (if ever) buy more Palladium products.
127 days until Gencon. 84 days until the end of June (if we accept the "July, maybe June" revision comment as accurate), or less than 100 days until mid July.
And they're still milling molds, as far as we know (10 days since the update that said they'd have a bunch of answers to backer questions in a week).
Hopefully it's a good one, because they and we could really use some actual good news at this point.
Note: I'm not expecting it. That's still some realism/tongue in cheek pessimism for laughs in there. But it'd be a nice change of pace all the same.
127 days until Gencon. 84 days until the end of June (if we accept the "July, maybe June" revision comment as accurate), or less than 100 days until mid July.
And they're still milling molds, as far as we know (10 days since the update that said they'd have a bunch of answers to backer questions in a week).
Hopefully it's a good one, because they and we could really use some actual good news at this point.
Note: I'm not expecting it. That's still some realism/tongue in cheek pessimism for laughs in there. But it'd be a nice change of pace all the same.
Obviously not everything is visible, but I think that lego man has about the same number of parts as a Spartan, no?
It's funny. I've participated in two Kickstarters; this and AVP. Early on in AVP several people complained how horribly it was being run. I laughed. Long. Hard. I possibly peed a little it was so funny. Are there hiccups with that one? Yeah, but NOTHING even close to approaching the RRT spectacle. Less than 5 months after their KS ended they're further along and have provided a lot better communication than Palladium.
I think I've come up with a funny game for one of you fine folks that use facebook could do (I don't... dakka and my blog are as social in media as I get!)... Repost word for word that NMI Ruiz guy's posts from the Ninja Division site on Palladium. I don't have any problem with what he is asking there or even the frequency of his questions but I do think he is strangely missing asking the exact same questions to the company in charge overall of the project. For instance, he recently posted
"Jeff Nmi Ruiz Does the gorgeous lady like to play Robotech RPG Tactics? Yesterday at 12:52pm"
so you'd copy that onto some Palladium post with a mention of a woman like the Rifter cover entry. If it is good for the goose then it is good for the gander too, right? Brownie bonus points for posting the same exact posts in various ongoing Palladium forum threads as well.
... have I told you lately that you're a genius, warboss?
Because you are.
I'd been thinking of pointing out the shenanigans on the PB forums, but this game sounds like way more fun.
Even better, just start a thread in the RRT subforum and see how many I can post there (but redirected at PB) until it gets closed and I get banned?
Not that a banning would mean much. They seem fairly toothless (in that they don't generally last very long unless one really gets out of hand), and honestly, between the KS comments and here, I already get conversations on the topic of RRT an order of magnitude better than those I find on the PB forums.
No, you haven't but thanks! Mind you.. I don't think his questions are shennanigans but I do think it is the ultimate in hypocrisy to not allow it on the Palladium site but to post it on the ND one. I might actually start checking facebook if you do that and even check out the Palladium forum daily as well! The key is to post *EXACTLY* the same thing as he posts it even if it seems a bit out of place (see the pretty lady example above). Obviously, there is a bit of a backlog since he's been doing it for a few days now but luckily palladium seems to answer questions on their facebook page more frequently than they do when you ask via Kickstarter.
The other thing is to not mention that you're doing it on either the palladium forums or the facebook page and see how long it takes non-dakkites to catch on. Don't start a thread and post them en masse but rather sprinkle them about the forum. If you get a warning for trolling, simply politely point out that you're posting the exact same thing he did (but don't say that till you actually get a red box warning). Just ignore any intervening white knights that come to the rescue along the way as well.
If you want, we can make it a team effort like the upcoming butt sticker kickstarter we're 98% done with. If you hit facebook, I'll hit up the palladium site. I don't log in for weeks at a time and have only had a single warning IIRC over the years so I'll be ok.
warboss wrote: No, you haven't but thanks! Mind you.. I don't think his questions are shennanigans but I do think it is the ultimate in hypocrisy to not allow it on the Palladium site but to post it on the ND one. I might actually start checking facebook if you do that and even check out the Palladium forum daily as well! The key is to post *EXACTLY* the same thing as he posts it even if it seems a bit out of place (see the pretty lady example above). Obviously, there is a bit of a backlog since he's been doing it for a few days now but luckily palladium seems to answer questions on their facebook page more frequently than they do when you ask via Kickstarter.
You might want to be careful about exactly what you cut and paste. Cause on the "The Un-Official Fans of Palladium Books page", he devolved into personal attacks onto one commentor's wife, defended that a couple of times claiming that he was provoked, finally apologized in a smug manner, and still continued to defend his actions while smugly claiming the high ground that he apologized.
Cause being the better man means waiting until someone insults you, before going after their wife. Apparently.
warboss wrote: No, you haven't but thanks! Mind you.. I don't think his questions are shennanigans but I do think it is the ultimate in hypocrisy to not allow it on the Palladium site but to post it on the ND one. I might actually start checking facebook if you do that and even check out the Palladium forum daily as well! The key is to post *EXACTLY* the same thing as he posts it even if it seems a bit out of place (see the pretty lady example above). Obviously, there is a bit of a backlog since he's been doing it for a few days now but luckily palladium seems to answer questions on their facebook page more frequently than they do when you ask via Kickstarter.
You might want to be careful about exactly what you cut and paste. Cause on the "The Un-Official Fans of Palladium Books page", he devolved into personal attacks onto one commentor's wife, defended that a couple of times claiming that he was provoked, finally apologized in a smug manner, and still continued to defend his actions while smugly claiming the high ground that he apologized.
Cause being the better man means waiting until someone insults you, before going after their wife. Apparently.
Is there a link or some juicy quotes here? The one thing this thread needs more of is Melrose Place.
So one of the backers on the KS page got a conversation going with ND and this is supposedly the reply he got from them when he asked about the minis.
Soda Pop response, on 26 March:
"Hello Eric,
Thank you for contacting us here at Ninja Division. We are still working with Palladium Books to make sure all the Robotech Models are up to how they want them and to make sure their delivery is up to standard. This has been an exciting project and they are going to be top-notch models.
Please let me know how else I can help answer your questions!"
wufai wrote: So again, what was your reason/goal/vision when you initally backed the Robotech KS? and what has now changed your mind?
What is the problem is when the "supplier" (PB) states that the design work is pretty much done and they figure they can get it manufactured and released by December of that year a pretty clear expectation is set.
I FULLY expected knowing PB that a more reasonable goal would be April the next year so I figure "sure I can wait".
What has changed is that what few models they got done they released at a convention that would have only been possible from the kickstarter.
So they get more money and the kickstarter people get "Hey look at the progress we made!!!!".
They changed their billing for shipping part way through the backers selecting the extras they were willing to buy.
At this time it became more than just an agreement to "just" see a product we want made.
The next release goal is squarely aimed at the next convention.
Only first wave items will be released, not the entire agreed package.
Cant wait to see if they try anything for shipping the second wave of stuff.
It is easy to see the remaining product not ship out until 2015.
At this point it is easier to bail and put the onus on PB as a company that they do not get to ride on our money and pick any old date that suits them: they can have my money when they hit retail, that is a good goal to shoot for.
They can have the "Battlecry" as the down payment to see the game made but the extra stuff I committed to buying I no-longer want until it is in stores.
This is a reasonable expectation: make a product I want and you can have the money, pretty much how consumerism works.
My friends can be... put off by house rules, let alone house systems.
It's Palladium, I'm not expecting anything great, not necessarily even all that good, but it's something I remain cautiously optimistic about, based purely on hoping I don't have to fix their entire system from the ground up, again. Spent enough hours hashing that out and making Rifts work during my high school years, believe me, I have little interest in fixing their mistakes for years to come again. I don't want to settle either, but I'd rather it at least be playable.
Don't even say it, Mike. They hate fan made rules sets just as much, and brief critique is only a fraction of the venom they'd lob at your set.
Sorry, my wife was out of the country last week, and then to make things even easier for me and my toddler, we both got very sick. Now that we're both on the mend and the wife is home, I can get back to the insurgency.
Joyboozer wrote: that's a suspiciously Palladium style post, have we been infiltrated?
No infiltration (Hail Hydra..cough), just a string of bad luck.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For those interested in trying to work collectively to get a refund: Bare bones Facebook group started. If you want to be added, please shoot me a FB message with your DakkaDakka or KS handle. If you're going to troll or be abusive towards folks who are justifiably dissatisfied, please don't ask to join.
Um...did I miss something on mybook or facespace? I've gone a few dozen comments back and something seems to have taken place between Jorel and Forar... or Jorel's account got hacked by the likes of Akashic.
Jorel seems to be punching Palladium with one hand while petting them lovingly with the other.
Really the way Jorel phrased what he said did make him sound like a dick, but there's little point attacking him about it.
Long story short: remember that big blowup on the update comments over the Spartan? Mike tried to get people to come up with constructive questions to pose to PB/ND? Then Jorel took it upon himself to run with that?
Apparently at the same time he was doing that, he was also posting the following on Wayne's (of Palladium fame) Facebook:
Not sure which thing your fed up with but I may have corralled the stampede of a Update comments page. I Turned it into an ask a constructive question page. Hope that helps. Not sure how long it will last. They have about 20 questions so far and most are actually being civil to one another. It is about to hit 1500 comments so I'd say it has some legs. Be good if they could actually come together and state what they'd like improved if they are havin such issues. At least it stops them from whatever they were doin previously.
So while he was busy constructively redirecting the outrage that was making Wayne so frustrated (omg!), he was busy sucking up / sucking off to them.
Basically, I'm tired of his crap. For the past year he'll rant against Palladium being late or whatever, but then in the next thread he'll wax about his massive collection (apparently everything they've made. In duplicate. Sometimes more like 6+ copies of a single book. Mull that over for a bit), and gets really feisty when someone really goes after them.
I've heard it described as being similar to domestic violence, and while that's certainly a topic I generally try not to make light of, it's hard to not note the parallels.
Oh, they don't mean it! They love him! And if he just showed them how much he loved them, everything would be great!
Looks like you guys have been having fun over here without me
Hopefully we'll see actual product someday, but in the meantime it's rather unfair for Palladium to expect sunshine and rainbows from us. I think they've grown so used to the lack of critique they get from their RPG customers (not that those customers don't complain, it's just that they've got their company forums rather well silenced). Customers that want actual delivery dates, not later this year (or next, or eventually), are a new experience for them.
And y'know, to be really fair, Kickstarters often have delays.
Big, successful ones often have even bigger delays.
But there hits a point where you're doubling the original projection and "oops" doesn't really cover it, and then you go back through the updates and the news releases and see that according to their math, 2 + 2 = Cow. It's not even in the right ballpark, let alone 'close' to what they've been feeding you for months.
Given that there's been a delay in answers to Mike's Community Questions, I'm gonna take a shot at it.
Mike1975 wrote: 1. Can we get a projected schedule, broken down by dependencies, to allow for product to be shipped to backers before GenCon?
We project GenCon. Everything's on schedule to make that goal. We're all super excited, and that's all you need for a projected timeline, right?
Mike1975 wrote: 2. How close is the project in regards to completion of the First Wave?
98% <- Seriously, I'd be on the border of rage and awe they'd make a joke like that, given their position, if they answered that.
Mike1975 wrote: 3. The seams in the figures that we’ve been shown appear significant. Is it possible to see versions of the figures that have not been assembled and then disassembled to see how the seams would appear coming off the sprue?
We'll post pictures when we get the test sprues, but they're for sure going to be better. We promise. With our excitement at this level of awesome, how can it not?
Mike1975 wrote: 4. The piece-count on these figures seems high, while the options for alternate poses seem limited. Is there anything that can be done to rectify this situation, both to reduce piece-count and increase poseability?
We're trying, but according to someone we won't question, the construction process won't allow for changes. This is the process needed to make the "mouth watering miniatures you're just dying to assemble". We know you can hardly wait!
Mike1975 wrote: 5. Is it possible to miss the GenCon release date, if necessary, to remake the figures with fewer pieces and less noticeable seam-lines?
We're on track to make GenCon (see Q1), and the figures can't be improved (see Q4). So, no. The project will release at GenCon, and it'll blow the roof off the place! We're so excited!
Mike1975 wrote: 6. What are the plans to support this game at launch? Will the Megaversal Abassador system be used to help spread and advertise the game? Are the other generations planned for a future release?
We'll be expanding the Ambassador program, as Ninja Games have been kicked to the curb/don't want anything to do with us. It'll be great! So exciting! The other generations are planned, for sure. They're almost all done, the Kickstarter will start week after next, on the anniversary of the first generation, and be ready to deliver December 2014. You trust us, right? We've learnt from our mistakes, promise. Aren't you excited? We know we are!
Mike1975 wrote: 7. Can more videos of actual game play be provided? We would like to see videos of games played by experienced testers and players who have only been given the rules with no guidance?
We'll work on that, we promise. But obviously, because of the way the legalities are structured, those gameplay videos will have to have all images and vocalization of game stats and any reference to actual rules redacted. So it'll be people moving figures without specification, and rolling dice without reference. But it'll be awesome!
Mike1975 wrote: 8. Is it possible to have a community organizer interact with us on Kickstarter to provide regular feedback, and not just in the form of updates?
I, Wayne will work harder, we swear. <- Followed by a 3 week unannounce absence, and a return that ignores this.
Mike1975 wrote: 9. What plans are in place to rebuild credibility and goodwill within the backer community?
We did an unannounced survey of hundreds of backers, and fewer than 1% of the customers are unhappy with the progress made. It also made something else very, very clear, that many of Palladium’s relentless critics are, not customers. Yeah, they paid into the game, but that was out of spite. We don't count them. Cause that'd skew the numbers away from dictator level approval ratings. And we don't want that. So there's no lost goodwill to rebuild. We know you want it so much it hurts!
Mike1975 wrote: 10. Can we please have detailed pictures of each figure as it gets completed? Both a detailed, assembled 360° set of pictures and also shots on the sprue?
When they're ready, you guys will be the first to see them! Well, second, cause Kevin will show them on the PB Updates. Well, third, because if a random stranger at a convention sees them, we'll let him post them instead. But you guys are still valued! You're not just a source of money to us! Aren't you excited!
If we get an answer, I don't expect much more than that. It was pointed out that I forgot judicious use of copyright, registered trademark and trademark symbols. Please feel free to mentally sprinkle/soak the above answers in those symbols as you read it.
@Morgan- How did you get their answers already?!? Great stuff, man. That is probably almost exactly what they will write for answers...if they ever answer the questions.
Man, Mike's facebook page is turning into a joke. Those 2 white-knight trolls are making it almost unbearable to go and check what is posted. Can't even joke about PB/ND without them flying off the handle.
Gah! Stupid thing. Double post, then try to correct, and deletes the good post and arglebargle guddamit!
I'll try and reconstruct.
Ironwill13791 wrote: @Morgan- How did you get their answers already?!? Great stuff, man. That is probably almost exactly what they will write for answers...if they ever answer the questions.
Most of the answers I gave are actually from quotes taken only marginally out of context. I got Forar to hunt down the Weekly Update from June 7th for Question 9, and I can't remember exactly where the dismissal of seeing the rules prior to release that formed the answer to Question 7. But a lot of the jazzhands comes from KS Updates 125 and 128. Lines like
Think about why you are so frustrated and perhaps even angry about the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ delays. It’s because you want it so badly you can’t stand it. You want it now! Us too! That’s why we have decided to ship in two waves, so you can get enough to start building and painting your armies, learning the rules and PLAY as soon as possible!
I love how I'm always the bad guy, there's times where I'm clearly being sarcastic and making fun of PB, but even when I'm providing unbiased explanations or comments I'm somehow always the guy who's bitter and resentful troll just because he got passed over by PB. (which isn't the case)
You can like a product but dislike the people who make it and criticize their decisions, case and point GW. Love the game setting and models even like quite a few of the staff, but the corporate side is a complete bunch of douche nozzels. Companies just like individuals are complicated entities, you can have a mix of emotions and reasoning towards them it's not just a "with us or against us" mentality.
Which means we've hit two problems. First; they're not good at math (their rpg mechanics back me up on this), and secondly, I have doubts of their ability to get 100 fans in the same place.
I have a feeling that they just wandered around at a local mall asking random people what they thought of robotech and palladium and every "wtf are you talking about" response was considered to be a customer satisfied result.
Either that or they walked around the warehouse on payday repeatedly asking their employees are you happy with how things are going? One guy likely Alex answered umm maybe... then Kevin said "yes, yes I am happy " and he's always the 99% of every opinion Paladium needs.
stanman wrote: I have a feeling that they just wandered around at a local mall asking random people what they thought of robotech and palladium and every "wtf are you talking about" response was considered to be a customer satisfied result.
Either that or they walked around the warehouse on payday repeatedly asking their employees are you happy with how things are going? One guy likely Alex answered umm maybe... then Kevin said "yes, yes I am happy " and he's always the 99% of every opinion Paladium needs.
They might as well have...
I have spent the last six weeks doing a lot of market research. It started at the Palladium Open House and intensified the last two weeks. My calls to Ultimate Insiders, Insider Benefactors and freelancers/friends contributed to it.
The owner of the company SECRETLY and personally approached people who paid to attend his company specific convention (in other words, people who paid hundreds of dollars in travel/lodging/etc to see him)... and then followed that up with people who crowdfunded a single book for hundreds of dollars to get their names into it. Unfortunately for him, enough of the people who attended the convention piped up in the forums to totally debunk the 1% result (the 5 or 6 people out of the 100 or so likely total "polled" who said they weren't satisfied and weren't even asked anything remotely similar). If you went to the company specific convention and the owner of the company (who can throw you out) comes up to you personally and asked you in general (remember... he SECRETLY polled them!) if you were having fun and satisfied, you basically were counted in the 99%. That is the type of critical feedback he wants from fans and employees. It's a good thing he's surrounded by folks that don't blow sunshine up his butt.
warboss wrote: The owner of the company SECRETLY and personally approached people who paid to attend his company specific convention (in other words, people who paid hundreds of dollars in travel/lodging/etc to see him)... and then followed that up with people who crowdfunded a single book for hundreds of dollars to get their names into it. Unfortunately for him, enough of the people who attended the convention piped up in the forums to totally debunk the 1% result (the 5 or 6 people out of the 100 or so likely total "polled" who said they weren't satisfied and weren't even asked anything remotely similar). If you went to the company specific convention and the owner of the company (who can throw you out) comes up to you personally and asked you in general (remember... he SECRETLY polled them!) if you were having fun and satisfied, you basically were counted in the 99%. That is the type of critical feedback he wants from fans and employees. It's a good thing he's surrounded by folks that don't blow sunshine up his butt.
Yeah. Whenever you get dictator level approval ratings, you need to question the sample size, the sample diversity, or the method of calculation. From the look of it, PB failed 3 for 3 there.
You typically can't get 90% of any significantly diverse people to agree on pretty much anything. If you're getting over 90%, you need to relook at your numbers.
I especially found the "People who don't like our product don't count" argle garble. Very enlightening about how Kevin views things.
As noted previously, I jointly backed with 2 other guys. One of them has basically just forgotten the project. The other remains annoyed about the delays, but hearing about the shenanigans of the last month or so, he's been pondering a road trip out to Michigan to express his displeasure with how the backers are being treated.
They've got two looming opportunities to regain some ground (or at least staunch some of the bleeding); the little 'newsletter' / "big news" they're supposedly putting up tonight, and the update that is now a week overdue.
Silence seems to be serving them well for now, but it won't be long before it begins to annoy people again, especially since every day that ticks by without the expected huge information coming by weakens their "it's coming for Gencon, you can totally trust us, guy!" stance.
.... oh god, now I'm going to read their updates like Saddam Hussain in South Park. I can't un-hear it in my head.
Alright, I figured out how and I blocked those clowns on Facebook.
I hope the update does have some meat to it. Right now, you backers need REAL information and the whats what. This game seems to be falling out of favor with more and more people as they continue to attempt to *Jazz-hands* through it.
When you scroll down to the Robotech Tactics part it says: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ – Game Description – Coming Spring 2014
"Spring 2014" I laughed so hard I nearly pissed myself. Even if they are cutting final molds today, do they really think they'll get stuff done and shipped from China in the next 30-45 days?
That's palladium time which much like dog years needs to be multiplied by another number. Unlike dog years with their simple arithmetic multiple of 7, palladium has a d100 chart of random number multiples that you need to roll for. Just hope you don't get a 73-84 because there is an unfixed typo there telling you to multiply by ^.
Well, their official target has been "June, maybe May" for a while, but in a recent comment during the Spartan argument, someone let slip that it was "July, maybe June". "Spring 2014" has been on that page for like 3-6 months now, I think they just haven't updated it yet.
And if one is pedantic, "spring" actually ends in late June, roughly 73 days or so from now.
"July", if we go all the way to the end of the month, adds another 40 days.
Not that 113 days or less is terribly realistic either, but at least it's (slightly) less of a joke than 30-45.
But to be clear, I'm just looking at this from a purely detached standpoint. In actual terms of what I believe, I think we'll have another "oops, going to backslide more!" note in the near future.
Even if things go perfectly, punching out a couple hundred thousand sprues and shipping them across an ocean is probably unlikely in that 3-4 month timeframe, let alone even starting to sort and mail boxes before Gencon eats up, like, an entire month.
ThaneCawdor wrote: And with the latest update, Morgan unseats the Great Carnac...
I did whiff completely on 2 and 10, and kind of on 7 (need to wait and see). I'm really disappointed I was right on 8 and 9. It's like he quoted me verbatim. Like I said on the KS, until communication actually improves, this is "fool me twice" territory, though I'm not sure what he could have said that would have changed my opinion on Q8. And with regards Q9, being dismissed as a vast minority for thinking they've lost credibility reeks of Kevin's Poll. It might be accurate, but claiming those who failed to state one way or the other, as your own, is logically flawed.
I'm glad their starting to get production, but I still think a) they'll be hard pressed to make GC, and b) it's unlikely the issues with the figure count/seams will be corrected.
So if I can't get a refund, it's still all going on the secondary market to recoup my money.
Print elements are all either finished or going through final adjustments and approvals. Specifically, I can tell you that for the rulebook I have 2-3 final corrections and adjustments to make, and I’m currently laying out the painting and decal placement guide in the back of the book.
When all of the above is finished, the game will immediately go into production. Factory time has already been reserved, and they’ll be ready and waiting to start when the last bit of tooling is finished and approved.
Anyone else May 2013 deja vu in that? That is pretty much was said during and in the month after the KS. So... we're basically almost where we should have been last June according to the info I based my pledge on. Well... at least a few of the questions (but certainly not all) were answered and at least the artillery pod sprues are done but that is about as glass full as I can manage looking at this glass with a tiny bit of backwash on the bottom. I agree though that June is just plain out of the question at this point and even Gencon using the only metric that matters (products actually getting to most backers) is still unlikely assuming everything goes perfectly from now on with no further revisions. I'm not sure why they're using slow normal shipping from China when the clock is ticking as it is as well instead of spending the money to overnight it and save 10 business days.
Print elements are all either finished or going through final adjustments and approvals. Specifically, I can tell you that for the rulebook I have 2-3 final corrections and adjustments to make, and I’m currently laying out the painting and decal placement guide in the back of the book.
When all of the above is finished, the game will immediately go into production. Factory time has already been reserved, and they’ll be ready and waiting to start when the last bit of tooling is finished and approved.
Anyone else May 2013 deja vu in that? That is pretty much was said during and in the month after the KS. So... we're basically almost where we should have been last June according to the info I based my pledge on. Well... at least a few of the questions (but certainly not all) were answered and at least the artillery pod sprues are done but that is about as glass full as I can manage looking at this glass with a tiny bit of backwash on the bottom. I agree though that June is just plain out of the question at this point and even Gencon using the only metric that matters (products actually getting to most backers) is still unlikely assuming everything goes perfectly from now on with no further revisions. I'm not sure why they're using slow normal shipping from China when the clock is ticking as it is as well instead of spending the money to overnight it and save 10 business days.
That's something I thought a while back. When you're this under the clock, why in God's name, aren't you overnighting it? I could possibly understand if these things were huge, or weighed a couple dozen pounds. But they aren't, and they don't. I am curious who's in charge of shipping at PB, cause I hope they've got good heart medication. Cause the bill on backer shipping's going to make them apoplectic.
And yeah, reading yet again that the print elements are "finished" or "in final layout" brings the deja vu. Cause, you know, July 10th called.
The irony for me is, if I can't get a refund, and they do intend to ship before GenCon, I've actually got to organise to have them delay shipment until after GC. Because I fly out for GC two weeks early, and likely won't be home to collect it or give permission for another to do so on my behalf. Though I am tempted to have it shipped to my US address, then wear a "Ask me how to get Robotech Tactics cheap!". I initially wanted to just sell them right next to PB's booth, but it was pointed out that might be a breach of some kind of rule or something.
Sining wrote: cause Palladium doesn't have the money?
What do you think in the end costs more? Multiple rounds of 10-14 day airmail post packages going back and forth for less shipping $$ at the cost of bringing your product to the market 1-2 months later (and possibly missing the biggest direct to consumer gaming convention sale opportunity) or paying $20 more per mail shipment to have it overnighted? You can literally make that cost back by selling a single product once for each shipment.
Sining wrote: cause Palladium doesn't have the money?
What do you think in the end costs more? Multiple rounds of 10-14 day airmail post packages going back and forth for less shipping $$ at the cost of bringing your product to the market 1-2 months later (and possibly missing the biggest direct to consumer gaming convention sale opportunity) or paying $20 more per mail shipment to have it overnighted? You can literally make that cost back by selling a single product once for each shipment.
You're making a fairly significant assumpbtion there. That Palladium know what the heck they're doing.
Well we finally got an update at least. I'm not thrilled by their answers to the questions, but at least we now have pictures of an actual physically produced product (only one of many, but at least it's a start). The sprue for the regult artillery looks pretty good all things considered.
@Morgan - If they do get delivery prior to Gencon you could probably put them up for sale in the 'auction store'. Give a modest discount (10%or so) and I'm sure the stuff would move : )
Duskland wrote: Well we finally got an update at least. I'm not thrilled by their answers to the questions, but at least we now have pictures of an actual physically produced product (only one of many, but at least it's a start). The sprue for the regult artillery looks pretty good all things considered.
For me, the big question remains "What's the revised date?". Because I'm hugely skeptical pre-GenCon is a possibility. And I see there being a scene if Backers at GenCon see product being sold.
As for the sprue, it's good to finally see SOMETHING tangible. But given the way it's been handled to date, I just don't know. The fact that they could be running these sprues right now, but they're still apparently debating which color plastic to use? Yes, the color of plastic used does have potential pros and cons. But like a lot of other decisions, it should have been decided MONTHS ago. You don't need to see the models to figure out the color you're intending to use. Samples of other products should have been offered or asked for, and tested basically at the point the first contracted slot was made. That this decision has the potential to hold up production is stupid on so many levels. Let's hope at least it's rubber stamped by Harmony Gold. Cause if they want to have in depth input on details like this, screw GenCon, Christmas may be unrealistic.
Duskland wrote: @Morgan - If they do get delivery prior to Gencon you could probably put them up for sale in the 'auction store'. Give a modest discount (10%or so) and I'm sure the stuff would move : )
Well, that depends on when they deliver. I'm only in the US for two weeks, and I'm most definitely NOT wanting to either bring 8 Battlecry's with me, or alternately (if they screw the shipping time to after GC) have to eat the cost on shipping them home. I KNOW how onerous the shipping charges will likely be ($500-$700+), and screw it, Palladium can pay that.
I also wouldn't need to offer a discount. I could easily offer a premium. A Wave 1 Battlecry has literally twice as many figures as the retail First Contact (34 vs 68). Basically doubles of everything, except adding Spartans and Phalanxes instead of duplicating Tomahawks and Defenders, and the Arthur Pods replacing something.
Apr 10 2014
Questions and Answers
132 comments
66 likes
Hey, everyone. Wayne here. For those who have wondered, yes, I was sick; and yes, I was working weekends anyway. Still fighting off a nagging cough, but anyway...
I’m sorry for the delay on these. I meant to post these answers last week, but I needed some info from the Ninja Division guys, and they were attending Adepticon last week, and are now at PAX East this week, so not only have they been hard to reach, it's been difficult for them to dig up some of the info I needed.
I’m still trying to get some followup information, so I’ll further elaborate on some of these as soon as I can.
Can we get a projected schedule, broken down by dependencies, to allow for product to be shipped to backers before Gen Con?
Not yet, I’m afraid. I’m still trying to get some of that information. Between the conventions last week and this week, and the need for some of that info to come from China, I just haven’t been able to get all the info I need to give you all a detailed schedule. I am working on it.
How close is the project in regards to completion of the First Wave?
Here’s where things stand:
The Zentraedi Artillery Battlepods, Blast Template, Command Tokens, and bases have finished tooling (mold-making). Initial runs of the Arty Battlepods are en route to us for inspection and assembly. I’ll include some photos of those below.
The standard Regult Battlepods and the Glaug Command Pack are in tooling right now, and will be finished shortly.
The Defender/Tomahawk and Spartan/Phalanx Destroids are awaiting final approval of corrected renders we just received, and will begin tooling next.
The Valkyrie is having its sprue layout finalized. We were told over two weeks ago that prototype pieces were being made, and we received new, corrected renders of all three Valkyrie modes on Tuesday, so the prototypes should be showing up any day now. When they have been examined and approved, and sprue layouts are finished, they’ll go into tooling.
Print elements are all either finished or going through final adjustments and approvals. Specifically, I can tell you that for the rulebook I have 2-3 final corrections and adjustments to make, and I’m currently laying out the painting and decal placement guide in the back of the book.
When all of the above is finished, the game will immediately go into production. Factory time has already been reserved, and they’ll be ready and waiting to start when the last bit of tooling is finished and approved.
The seams in the figures that we've been shown appear significant. Is it possible to see versions of the figures that have not been assembled and then disassembled to see how the seams would appear coming off the sprue?
As tooling for various game pieces finishes, we’ll receive runs from the molds that we’ll be able to remove from the sprues and assemble. We’ll document the process and show you photos from every step of the way, up to and including the assembled pieces.
The piece-count on these figures seems high, while the options for alternate poses seem limited. Is there anything that can be done to rectify this situation, both to reduce piece-count and increase poseability?
First, allow me to disagree with the assertion about the poseability. Of course it’s limited to some extent, but some sets have multiple poses of extra arms to choose from, and many game pieces have round or ball-and-socket joints to increase the variation in poses.
As for piece count, we have tried to keep it as low as possible without losing detail. Some will say it’s not low enough, but there’s nothing we can do about that at this point. We've promised highly detailed game pieces molded in ABS plastic from the very beginning, and with the original designs we have to work with and re-create, there are limits to how low that piece count can feasibly go without changing to metal or resin, which we are not going to do.
Is it possible to miss the Gen Con release date, if necessary, to remake the figures with fewer pieces and less noticeable seam-lines?
We have no desire or intention of delaying things any further, and the piece count cannot feasibly be reduced without changing to resin or metal. Most of the seams are located right where they need to be, in order to avoid either losing an element of detail on that surface, or increasing the piece count even further. (In the much-discussed example of the Spartan, the seams running down the legs are necessary to preserve the ridges on the front and back of the legs and feet, as well as the inset half circles on the backs of the legs.)
As for the noticeability of the seam lines, we have been assured that the fit between pieces will be tight and the seams will be minimal, unlike some of the relatively large gaps that have been seen in our primered, glued, disassembled, and hastily reassembled prototype pieces. Those weren't show pieces, but prototypes not originally intended for public display. They were shown on here to keep you all informed and give you a look inside the process, but they were never expected to be pretty or polished pieces. The final production pieces will look much better, as we will show you when we have them.
What are the plans to support this game at launch? Will the Megaversal Ambassador system be used to help spread and advertise the game?
The folks at Soda Pop/Cipher Studios/Ninja Division will be lending their experience and helping us establish and improve our organized play program. The Megaversal Ambassadors will be the backbone of that program. They are a group of volunteers who run demos and regular games in their local stores, as well as conventions they attend. Most of them, and many new applicants, are eager to start running Robotech® RPG Tactics™ games and demos, and we will do all we can to support them and coordinate their efforts.
Are the other generations planned for a future release?
Definitely. We've had some internal discussions of how to deal with potential scale issues (a game that includes both the Mk.II Monster and Cyclones on the same field of play makes scaling of game pieces tricky), and the rules have been designed with future expansions and generations of Robotech® in mind. The Masters Saga™, The New Generation™, and The Shadow Chronicles® are all planned, but our focus for now is on getting the rewards for this Kickstarter done and in your hands.
Can more videos of actual game play be provided? We would like to see videos of games played by experienced testers and players who have only been given the rules with no guidance.
That sounds like a good idea. I’ll see what we can do.
Is it possible to have a community organizer interact with us on Kickstarter to provide regular feedback, and not just in the form of updates?
I’ll try to do a better job of that. Palladium Books is a small company with only six full-time employees. Manpower is severely limited, and none of us can spend significant amounts of time watching the comments sections of these Updates. Jeff reads all the direct messages that come in and answers those as best he can. The rest, I try to address in these Updates. Like I said, I’ll try to do better.
What plans are in place to rebuild credibility and goodwill within the backer community?
My plan is to be as open, honest, and communicative as I can, providing info and updates as often as possible. I think we still have credibility and goodwill with the vast majority of the backer community, but we have a number of very vocal, dissatisfied backers. I think the only way we’ll ever make them happy will be to deliver a high quality game and game pieces, as soon as possible. I know it can’t be soon enough, because it’s already several months late, but we’re doing everything we can.
Can we please have detailed pictures of each figure as it gets completed? Both a detailed, assembled 360 degree set of pictures and also shots on the sprue?
Absolutely. As soon as we have them to show you, we’ll be happy to do just that.
At the moment, the only such thing I have to show you are these photos of the first test runs of the Artillery Battlepod mold. Note: I’m told the white/light gray frames were run for the factory’s own test purposes, and the darker gray ones were the first test color they ran. The actual color the production game pieces will be is still being discussed.
No need to apologize. Frustrated as I've been, I strive to never tell someone they should be more unhappy than they are, and I imagine others here feel the same way. Those who are content are welcome to their contentedness. It's when people go out of their way to tell me I'm not allowed to feel or voice my displeasure that they garner ire.
And even as one of the more vocal members of 'the opposition', even I think that it's a vast improvement over what we've been given previously, and better than I'd anticipated us getting (though that's also heavily tied to how low the bar had been set).
But one big message doesn't absolve them of the last year of shenanigans. If they keep it up, if we see actual tangible progress, then maybe things can settle. I'd rather not have to feel like I need to keep their feet to the fire for the next year just to get my stuff and be able to put this all behind me.
My only issue, which I think is reasonable and not give to the internet-rage about this, is the release date. How late are they on delivering this again?
One day after the campaign ended (literally, 1 day), they revised it to an estimated "November, maybe October".
Then it slid back to "fall 2014".
Then back to December.
Then maybe February.
Then "early June, maybe May".
Now it's "June", and in a comment they said "July, maybe June", however their RRT page on the official site still says "Spring 2014", which ends in late June. If they really think it's July at this point, someone should probably update that for accuracy.
Also, early this year, they went from full delivery to 2 waves for Backers (it was always 2+ waves for Retail).
Backer Wave 2 has gone from "October" to "end of this year", which I'm taking to mean December 31st, 23:59 (which time zone? Yes!).
So from an initial 8 month time frame, we're up to about 20+ for full delivery, which considering the backer numbers and funding, is starting to edge on "Ogre level delays" territory, which is infamous in the community, yet was only 1 year late (at a glance, Nov 2013 delivery on a Nov 2012 delivery target) with similar backer numbers and 2/3 the cash.
judgedoug wrote: Sorry to go against popular vitriol, but those artillery pod sprues look great.
No need to apologize. Disagreement is fine but needlessly attacking those who disagree with you isn't. You're not doing the latter and the artillery pod sprue does look fine... a bit bland as it has no variety but it does the job. I would have preferred (much like with the destroids) having the pod with multiple differently sculpted pieces (like legs at angles) but that simply isn't going to happen with this KS. I'll reserve final judgement on those sprues though for when (and if) Palladium posts pics of the ASSEMBLED models from those sprues. It is still possible to have problems creep up between the 3d print and test sprue stage.
Maybe I'm so frustrated with them nothing will make me happy, but I thought the reasoning for the massive part counts was so the models would offer variations in poses. If this is the case, then why are the legs one piece? Also, I'm counting between 25-30 parts per artillery pod. Am I wrong on this? If I were building one or two for an army, I might be cool with that, but jeez. That's between 150-175 parts just for those six sprues.
I'm also not sure I like Wayne's answer about satisfying we malcontents. I sent an email on March 17th, laying out my reasoning for wanting a refund on my pledge, and have yet to receive a reply.
Anyhow, I've managed to recoup some of my pledge through my bank, working on the rest through my friend's. Don't forget the FB group is up for those of you who want to wash your hands of this.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here is the email I sent on March 17th, to which I have yet to receive a reply:
Jeff-
This is a long delayed reply, but I thought I'd wait and see if you put out some images of product before I pushed the issue. However, now that I see the product, I would like to make the following points.
1) If I hired a contractor to work on my home (and I have before), and they experienced delays like this, they would be paying huge penalties for running so far behind schedule. Granted, this is a bit of an apples to oranges comparison, but the Kickstarter was made to seem like everything was in the bag for a December release. Even at GenCon last year we were made to think that everything was pretty much done and good to go.As it looks now, I think a GenCon release for Wave One is highly optimistic. Waiting an indeterminate amount of time for receipt of the Wave Two product in my pledge is completely unacceptable to me.
2) If I purchased your product from my FLGS, and was dissatisfied, I would be able to return it for a full refund. I can tell you that the miniatures, while highly detailed, do not present an ease of assembly or modelling that is acceptable to me. I have been a miniatures gamer for over 20 years, and have built model kits since I was a child. The amount of time and work I would have to put in to make this miniatures acceptable to put on my gaming table is prohibitive.
So, we now have two issues that I believe warrant a refund. One, the project is incredibly far behind, with the final delivery date of all the product still nebulous. Two, the quality of the product is unacceptable to me, the customer, and final consumer. With that, I respectfully request that you reconsider, and grant me a full refund and an amicable parting of ways.
Sincerely,
James Moore (and Bradley Essex)
Was this disrespectful or harassing in some way that I don't know about?
It's not disrespectful. But I think you got the concept of kickstarter wrong. It's not meant to be a store and no formal contract exists between you and the creator. There is no exchange of consideration, only a promise. I would suggest you not to support kickstarters in the future and buy from the local flgs under the conditions you demand when you purchase goods.
judgedoug wrote: Sorry to go against popular vitriol, but those artillery pod sprues look great.
No need to apologize. Disagreement is fine but needlessly attacking those who disagree with you isn't. You're not doing the latter and the artillery pod sprue does look fine... a bit bland as it has no variety but it does the job. I would have preferred (much like with the destroids) having the pod with multiple differently sculpted pieces (like legs at angles) but that simply isn't going to happen with this KS. I'll reserve final judgement on those sprues though for when (and if) Palladium posts pics of the ASSEMBLED models from those sprues. It is still possible to have problems creep up between the 3d print and test sprue stage.
I think it's very funny that they said the high part count was to give poseability. Which it doesn't do, because ALL of the legs are single pose. Sad really, that they don't even know about model poseability. They think because the destroids have different arms (probably only the Spartan), that those are now "poses".
Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.
Wufai, they accepted those terms just like every backer did. That would hold up as contract in court.
@Morgan - Sorry, I meant 10% off the retail they'd be selling them for in the dealer hall. Basically doubling your money.
I'm okay with the sprue layout that they ended up going for. Yes, the poseability of the artillery pods is limited as shown, but hopefully the legs will be interchangable with the regular regults (I can't imagine a rational for them not to be interchangable).
I'll admit that I was somewhat surprised by the decision to go with one pod per sprue. My initial impression from the kickstarter was that they'd put two regults per sprue and have a seperate sprue for the artillery component. That way both a regult box and an artillery box would be three sprues. That would simplify packaging/display while needing the minimum number of molds. Now I'm wondering if the regult box will be four sprues as well, perhaps split into two sets of sprues (three regults per set). If so, that would leave plenty of room for additional leg pieces, guns and whatnot.
Swabby wrote: From the kickstarter terms of service:
Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.
Wufai, they accepted those terms just like every backer did. That would hold up as contract in court.
Swabby you are absolutely correct! I'm glad someone is reading the Kickstarter terms and conditions. I will recite my eariler statment that no contract was made, a contract indeed exists, its just that the terms and conditions layed out at this point in time PB did not say they can't fulfill the rewards, so asking for refunds at this point is moot and not applicable by the terms of the contract.
Here's some more terms for backers to consider when pledging... so far I really don't see PB breaking any promises that voliate any Kickstarter terms. So again asking for refunds is kinda moot since when you pledge you have already given up that right.
•The Estimated Delivery Date listed on each reward is not a promise to fulfill by that date, but is merely an estimate of when the Project Creator hopes to fulfill by. •Project Creators agree to make a good faith attempt to fulfill each reward by its Estimated Delivery Date. •Kickstarter does not offer refunds. A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward. •Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. •Project Creators may cancel or refund a Backer’s pledge at any time and for any reason, and if they do so, are not required to fulfill the reward.
wufai wrote: Here's some more terms for backers to consider when pledging... so far I really don't see PB breaking any promises that voliate any Kickstarter terms. So again asking for refunds is kinda moot since when you pledge you have already given up that right.
•The Estimated Delivery Date listed on each reward is not a promise to fulfill by that date, but is merely an estimate of when the Project Creator hopes to fulfill by.
•Project Creators agree to make a good faith attempt to fulfill each reward by its Estimated Delivery Date.
•Kickstarter does not offer refunds. A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward.
•Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.
•Project Creators may cancel or refund a Backer’s pledge at any time and for any reason, and if they do so, are not required to fulfill the reward.
The problem is, it's technically impossible for PB to actually break their promise, if they choose not to.
Update 1502, April, 2086, "We're still working on the final touches to the Veritech Battleoid! We love it! You'll love it! Just a couple more months!"
As long as they choose not to announce it's cancelled, and make an Update whenever they damned well feel like it, they never have to supply the product, or offer a refund.
I'm no lawyer, and I certainly don't know anything about American Contract Law, but in Australian Law, there are certain rights that cannot be given up, regardless of what a contract says. I'm not saying Robotech is going to set the precedent (I figure it'll be a significantly larger or more obviously fraudulent one), but at some point I see the Kickstarter contract abuse being challenged in a court of law, and I wouldn't wager heavily against the KS exemption being overruled.
Another aspect to this is that a Kickstarter campaign needs to be conducted in good faith. A projected time frame of 8 months is perhaps optimistic, but not utterly impossible to achieve, especially considering they told us that 6 months of work had been done before they even launched. 14+ months to deliver a couple dozen miniatures? Small'ish companies have been doing that for years, and we were told that ND was bringing the expertise and experience that they lacked to overcome any obstacles. This isn't a couple of guys and gals in their basement casting a few hundred figures, it supposedly incorporates the knowledge base of 3 companies, all of whom who have had *some* contact with miniatures or models in the past.
And when that 8 month project (14 months worked) gets shuffled back to roughly 20+ months (26+ all told)? How patient must one be to 'enjoy the adventure of Kickstarting a new product' before one is allowed to point out that maybe those guys didn't know half the gak they claimed to?
As we've bantered before, a KS isn't a pre-order and it's not a investment in the legal sense, but it's not a charity either. There isn't some magical disconnect where one just says "oh, I happen to give them X dollars and they say they'll give me Y product in reward for my contribution, but they have utterly zero responsibility to provide the product in any actual time frame". How many years does one need to remain quietly patient? Because we're going to be pushing 2 by the time all is said and done, and ~8 months (double time) past the initial estimate to get roughly 1/2 of the product tells me that either someone done feth'd up or they've been lying.
And luckily with Kickstarter, we have the magical ability to go back 10 months in time to see how "almost all the sculpts are done" and "the rules are done!" and "we should be going to production in 45 days after the KS campaign ends!"
I don't think 'oops' quite covers that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Like, I think it's good that backers are generally a patient lot. And that being 3 or even 6 months late shouldn't be some kind of auto-trigger to require refunds for everyone.
But I do think the KS system is flawed that people can walk off with cash for a year or two and somehow the community is expected to just quietly take it.
Honestly, I think it'd be a good idea to require that a project deliver within 2x their estimated date, otherwise that they agree (in a manner that should hold up in most courts, at least) a refund to backers that request it. This incentivizes creators to give as accurate an estimate as they can, and even lean on the long side of things, to increase that cushion of time. If they'd said 1 year for delivery, we wouldn't even be past the target, and they'd still have another year to go to make that range.
In turn, the longer deadlines would probably reduce backer funding a bit, but is that really a bad thing? So many KS's get completely lost in offering backers the moon and the stars of the sky to attract money, and then complain that all the extra stuff has bumped up their delivery date. So instead of aiming for "70k" (let's be real, they *never* expected to get that little), projects that wanted to have an expanded product line have an incentive to produce vastly more realistic funding targets as well, since they can't just hit behind "oh, but we're adding SOOO MUCH VALUE over the base box!". No, be straight; you want to offer X product for $Y. It shouldn't have to be a case where you offer X product for $Y, but if we can leverage the economy of scale we'll give you 5X for that same cost! (and it'll take 3+ times as long). Stretch goals aren't the worst thing, but adopting them en masse is getting projects in trouble.
Plot out the numbers needed, include appropriate time and cash buffers against contingencies arising, and just do it. This song and dance has gone on long enough, and table top project backers really need to start taking creators to task over it. "Maybe we'll deliver early" and "we promise to keep you, the backers, informed" have been so misused over these past few years they've practically lost all meaning, and the system and the community deserve better than that.
jacobus wrote: Maybe I'm so frustrated with them nothing will make me happy, but I thought the reasoning for the massive part counts was so the models would offer variations in poses. If this is the case, then why are the legs one piece? Also, I'm counting between 25-30 parts per artillery pod. Am I wrong on this? If I were building one or two for an army, I might be cool with that, but jeez. That's between 150-175 parts just for those six sprues.
I don't know about you but I plan on only putting one option on a pod, so that reduces the part count considerably.
Looks like:
body
rear hatch
two legs
two feet
two thrusters
two ball joint particle guns
two ball joint smaller guns
one artillery connector
then your choice of small missiles, big missiles, or big ass particle guns
So about 13 base parts for a, what, 60mm tall model? Plus the artillery piece option. That's about the same size as a Tau suit, right?
For reference, a Carnifex is:
Two halves - Head.
3 Parts - chest/back.
Backplate
Tail/hips. (one piece)
Nipple to interface upper body with lower body.
2 Legs.
4 Arms.
optional - tail weapon, other baubles
wufai wrote: It's not disrespectful. But I think you got the concept of kickstarter wrong. It's not meant to be a store and no formal contract exists between you and the creator. There is no exchange of consideration, only a promise. I would suggest you not to support kickstarters in the future and buy from the local flgs under the conditions you demand when you purchase goods.
The added packages for purchase at the end of the kickstarter with the kit does formalize the "store".
An agreement was made if the project was fully funded and the added items are committed to if the targets were met.
Heard this "excuse" given a few times, why not break it up with "donation (non-refundable at kickstarter end)" and "buy into extras if target met (required donation before this can be added)".
They know that if we expect to get actual product from the amount pledged we will be more free with our money... let us not be fools here.
How well will Kickstarters take off if it is completely understood that it is ONLY a "pledge" and they are under no obligation to have it go toward our purchase of the product, only to see it get to market?
Kickstarter would be dead to me and most others.
I do not care how cool the product is: you do not get to play with my money without me getting something for it other than the pleasure of you selling it to me (eventually).
I do not hand out interest free loans for giggles.
<edit> Or more correctly a "donation" without a tax receipt.
<edit> "Project Creators agree to make a good faith attempt to fulfill each reward by its Estimated Delivery Date."
I think a case can easily be made for the above item not in "good faith" or even from this world.
), and we're in the dispute process with them. We'll see if it sticks, but my bank did put my part of my pledge into my bank account this afternoon.
). But very insightful post again, love the inside information on all this stuff.
. Getting it replaced was a hassle, and I've had an exceptionally low opinion of those douches since then.
