Dudeface wrote: I was really excited from the back end of last year when the rumours dropped but this seems to be more and more of a cursed release (excuse the pun).
Its just gone on for to long now. We've had to wait years from the two wound anouncement to start getting marketing drivel and leaks for the codex and we still don't have a release date. Even the new models aren't that exciting; replacements for models that have need them for years or models no one asked for. Finally, the Nephilim Chapter Approved changes just bum me out.
Finally real leaks..........Abby looks great but I wish we could see his PL so get an idea of points. The Oblits I believe are right on the money with the previous early leek, so looks like those are going to be pretty much on point. I actually love the stats for the Oblits, no more random crap, and they are good against a slew of enemies. The shoot into combat is just a bonus.
I agree on mark of Tzeentch. I think it will be under rated by the community because "well just shoot damage one weapons first". However this misses the point that your opponent won't always have damage one weapons to shoot first due to target priority or LOC etc. and for units like Oblits, ok shoot them with your small arms that they will soak up easily just to get that one wound. Then those shots are not going against my marines or cultists where they would be more effective. Since I play Tzeentch forces almost exclusively I am happy with this.
Confirmation of the effects of all Marks. And they all match up to the leaks, including the weird way that Mark of Nurgle works. Like it or not, it appears that very little has been changed since the playtest rules.
And 5PL per Obliterator. That works out to about 100 PPM. Owwww........
Gadzilla666 wrote: Confirmation of the effects of all Marks. And they all match up to the leaks, including the weird way that Mark of Nurgle works. Like it or not, it appears that very little has been changed since the playtest rules.
And 5PL per Obliterator. That works out to about 100 PPM. Owwww........
Oblits are already PL5 and 95ppm, so no real change there.
Also: it appears that the DAEMONKIN keyword isn't a replacement for the DAEMON keyword, but is in addition to it, at least in the case of Obliterators.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Also: it appears that the DAEMONKIN keyword isn't a replacement for the DAEMON keyword, but is in addition to it, at least in the case of Obliterators.
And daemonic is a special rule as well. A trifecta of redundant naming.
I assume Oblits aren't markable in any way. At least the dumb endless cacophony slaanesh oblits will stop.
And once again I feel like a 'flexible gun' can just have the middle option and not care.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Also: it appears that the DAEMONKIN keyword isn't a replacement for the DAEMON keyword, but is in addition to it, at least in the case of Obliterators.
And daemonic is a special rule as well. A trifecta of redundant naming.
I assume Oblits aren't markable in any way. At least the dumb endless cacophony slaanesh oblits will stop.
And once again I feel like a 'flexible gun' can just have the middle option and not care.
Yeah Obliterators not being allowed marks is dumb since they've always had access to them. Sure it'd be easier to just remove the double shooting strat since it's dumb anyway, but gotta make double sure!
- Legionnaries are only 19 ppm ;
- Cultists are 5 ppm ;
- Mutants are 6 ppm and Torments are 15 ppm (come in a mixed squad of 5-10 Mutants and 3-6 Torments) ;
- Terminators are 33 ppm ;
- Abaddon is 300 ppm ;
- Possessed and Warp Talons are 28/29 ppm (quality of the pictures are bad) ;
- Chaos Lord still has a bunch of options ;
- All Marks cost 15 points (flat).
The BAD :
- No jump pack for Chaos Lord and Sorcerers (not listed as an option and Daemon Prince still has the option for Wings) => Gadzilla on suicide watch ;
- No Mutilators. They are gone ;
- No datasheet for Traitor Guard from KT ;
- Land Raider, Predator etc are still overcosted just like DG and TS (no support at all from GW, as expected).
The mixed :
- Greater Possessed are also gone because, as we know, their profile has been absorbed by the new Possessed.
I wouldn't call the loss of Mutilators a negative, but Lords being confirmed to have lost Jump Packs (even though there's a model for it) is highly concerning.
- Legionnaries are only 19 ppm ;
- Cultists are 5 ppm ;
- Mutants are 6 ppm and Torments are 15 ppm (come in a mixed squad of 5-10 Mutants and 3-6 Torments) ;
- Terminators are 33 ppm ;
- Abaddon is 300 ppm ;
- Possessed and Warp Talons are 28/29 ppm (quality of the pictures are bad) ;
- Chaos Lord still has a bunch of options ;
- All Marks cost 15 points (flat).
The BAD :
- No jump pack for Chaos Lord and Sorcerers (not listed as an option and Daemon Prince still has the option for Wings) => Gadzilla on suicide watch ;
- No Mutilators. They are gone ;
- No datasheet for Traitor Guard from KT ;
- Land Raider, Predator etc are still overcosted just like DG and TS (no support at all from GW, as expected).
The mixed :
- Greater Possessed are also gone because, as we know, their profile has been absorbed by the new Possessed.
Dudeface wrote: The mutants confirmed for me what I expected to happen, they simple can't really coexist with spawn. One or the other will always be slightly better whilst having a identical use case as far as I can see.
Duplication is a persistent problem across various armies. But it doesn't exist just in very similar looking units, it is also a problem for all units with similar roles, eg striking scorpions and banshees. It's even more painful if those units are in the same force organisation slot. At least in this instance one is troops and the other is elites(?) That could be good for a themed force, whether it's good on the tabletop, who knows...
For my thousand sons however this just gives me a few more good options for spawn fodder. I had completely forgotten that these models were due to be released. I wonder if the unit will be in one box or if you buy the torments separately.
- Legionnaries are only 19 ppm ;
- Cultists are 5 ppm ;
- Mutants are 6 ppm and Torments are 15 ppm (come in a mixed squad of 5-10 Mutants and 3-6 Torments) ;
- Terminators are 33 ppm ;
- Abaddon is 300 ppm ;
- Possessed and Warp Talons are 28/29 ppm (quality of the pictures are bad) ;
- Chaos Lord still has a bunch of options ;
- All Marks cost 15 points (flat).
The BAD :
- No jump pack for Chaos Lord and Sorcerers (not listed as an option and Daemon Prince still has the option for Wings) => Gadzilla on suicide watch ;
- No Mutilators. They are gone ;
- No datasheet for Traitor Guard from KT ;
- Land Raider, Predator etc are still overcosted just like DG and TS (no support at all from GW, as expected).
The mixed :
- Greater Possessed are also gone because, as we know, their profile has been absorbed by the new Possessed.
Based on some info I've seen: some.of this is wrong, some of this is ignorant".
- Legionnaries are only 19 ppm ;
- Cultists are 5 ppm ;
- Mutants are 6 ppm and Torments are 15 ppm (come in a mixed squad of 5-10 Mutants and 3-6 Torments) ;
- Terminators are 33 ppm ;
- Abaddon is 300 ppm ;
- Possessed and Warp Talons are 28/29 ppm (quality of the pictures are bad) ;
- Chaos Lord still has a bunch of options ;
- All Marks cost 15 points (flat).
The BAD :
- No jump pack for Chaos Lord and Sorcerers (not listed as an option and Daemon Prince still has the option for Wings) => Gadzilla on suicide watch ;
- No Mutilators. They are gone ;
- No datasheet for Traitor Guard from KT ;
- Land Raider, Predator etc are still overcosted just like DG and TS (no support at all from GW, as expected).
The mixed :
- Greater Possessed are also gone because, as we know, their profile has been absorbed by the new Possessed.
Based on some info I've seen: some.of this is wrong, some of this is ignorant".
Yeah, 300 points is value town for what he brings. He does have a wacky stack of rules though, it's like the culmination of all the new trendy rules buffs of 9th ed being compiled into one model. I love how Abbadon keeps getting juiced up in stats with each iteration, he went from S4 T5, to S5 T5, to S6 T6, which is pretty much borderline primarch stats. Abba Dabba Doo indeed.
I'll tell you this much, Ghazzy and guys like the Nightbringer are giving him the ol stink eye for his value package.
I used the points to create a list and man Legionaries get pricey REAL FAST. If you kit them out fully with all the bells and whistles it is getting close to like 275 almost 300. For ten CSM. Also I love the cost of the Lord Discordant, Oblits, and venom crawlers. All much cheaper then I was expecting.
This is purely speculation but I'm guessing the guy on BnC that leaked the releases last fall probably only got to glance at the unreleased models without any sort of context on the rules aspect of them.
It could be that Traitor Guardsmen were never going to be part of the CSM book and for now are just a KT faction. Hopefully it means that GW is either planning or open to the idea of a full Renegades and Heretics reboot army in the near future (especially considering Custodes, GSC, Squats, ect all got rebooted).
- Legionnaries are only 19 ppm ;
- Cultists are 5 ppm ;
- Mutants are 6 ppm and Torments are 15 ppm (come in a mixed squad of 5-10 Mutants and 3-6 Torments) ;
- Terminators are 33 ppm ;
- Abaddon is 300 ppm ;
- Possessed and Warp Talons are 28/29 ppm (quality of the pictures are bad) ;
- Chaos Lord still has a bunch of options ;
- All Marks cost 15 points (flat).
The BAD :
- No jump pack for Chaos Lord and Sorcerers (not listed as an option and Daemon Prince still has the option for Wings) => Gadzilla on suicide watch ;
- No Mutilators. They are gone ;
- No datasheet for Traitor Guard from KT ;
- Land Raider, Predator etc are still overcosted just like DG and TS (no support at all from GW, as expected).
The mixed :
- Greater Possessed are also gone because, as we know, their profile has been absorbed by the new Possessed.
Based on some info I've seen: some.of this is wrong, some of this is ignorant".
They can't give specifics thanks to NDA.
It's from actual scans of the Codex.
Might want to double check then because Legionaires are 18ppm.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Anyone else notice World Claimer is actually 150? Wonder if he got such a price hike because he's the only Lord with a decent movement speed LOL
Its beyond my comprehension (and probably many others) why Lords cant have Wings/Jump Packs.
Not sure its worth even considering using Haarkans profile for a Jump Pack Lord.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Anyone else notice World Claimer is actually 150? Wonder if he got such a price hike because he's the only Lord with a decent movement speed LOL
Its beyond my comprehension (and probably many others) why Lords cant have Wings/Jump Packs.
Not sure its worth even considering using Haarkans profile for a Jump Pack Lord.
Well if they'll let us use his Spear in melee or give the claw extra damage I'd consider it a win overall.
- Legionnaries are only 19 ppm ;
- Cultists are 5 ppm ;
- Mutants are 6 ppm and Torments are 15 ppm (come in a mixed squad of 5-10 Mutants and 3-6 Torments) ;
- Terminators are 33 ppm ;
- Abaddon is 300 ppm ;
- Possessed and Warp Talons are 28/29 ppm (quality of the pictures are bad) ;
- Chaos Lord still has a bunch of options ;
- All Marks cost 15 points (flat).
The BAD :
- No jump pack for Chaos Lord and Sorcerers (not listed as an option and Daemon Prince still has the option for Wings) => Gadzilla on suicide watch ;
- No Mutilators. They are gone ;
- No datasheet for Traitor Guard from KT ;
- Land Raider, Predator etc are still overcosted just like DG and TS (no support at all from GW, as expected).
The mixed :
- Greater Possessed are also gone because, as we know, their profile has been absorbed by the new Possessed.
Based on some info I've seen: some.of this is wrong, some of this is ignorant".
They can't give specifics thanks to NDA.
It's from actual scans of the Codex.
Might want to double check then because Legionaires are 18ppm.
Or maybe the mistake I made is because of a potato camera and it's hard to be sure if it's 18 ppm or 19.
But keep being passive agressive. You don't look like an asshat at all
Point cost for legionaries look similar to loyalists tac marines which seems ok. 200pts for 20 wounds that can perform psychic actions and fit in a rhino seems like a fair deal. With Nurgle Mark and Icon I see there some real work for most opponents to get rid of them.
A bit sad that there are no points for chosen meele options, this means either that all are gone or that there are all free. Schrödingers Chosen I guess. Especially weird as other picks like bikes seem to keep most options.
I really wonder to see Huron Blackheart appear again, considering they removed the model. Maybe the claw in the RE really shows him? Or maybe this were points from an early Playtest version before he got the axe? I‘m curious about that, as Corsairs would be a go-to chapter for me
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Point cost for legionaries look similar to loyalists tac marines which seems ok. 200pts for 20 wounds that can perform psychic actions and fit in a rhino seems like a fair deal. With Nurgle Mark and Icon I see there some real work for most opponents to get rid of them.
A bit sad that there are no points for chosen meele options, this means either that all are gone or that there are all free. Schrödingers Chosen I guess. Especially weird as other picks like bikes seem to keep most options.
I really wonder to see Huron Blackheart appear again, considering they removed the model. Maybe the claw in the RE really shows him? Or maybe this were points from an early Playtest version before he got the axe? I‘m curious about that, as Corsairs would be a go-to chapter for me
He's on a range rotation, not removed completely (in theory) but it's not like them to cut special characters out overly if they've ever had model support.
Or maybe the mistake I made is because of a potato camera and it's hard to be sure if it's 18 ppm or 19.
But keep being passive agressive. You don't look like an asshat at all
It wasn't being passive aggressive and I saw the same leaks on my phone after I shared information that there were errors, and then pointed out an error I saw, but go on and make this an ego thing instead of just owning the mistakes.
Now that I'm at home and can more easily format text:
- Legionnaries are only 19 ppm ; 18ppm
- Cultists are 5 ppm ;
- Mutants are 6 ppm and Torments are 15 ppm (come in a mixed squad of 5-10 Mutants and 3-6 Torments) ; you can only take more than 3 Torments if you have 10 Mutants.
- Terminators are 33 ppm ;
- Abaddon is 300 ppm ;
- Possessed and Warp Talons are 28/29 ppm (quality of the pictures are bad) ; 28ppm
- Chaos Lord still has a bunch of options ; [color=red]Listed options from the points page: plasma pistol, power axe, power fist, power maul, power sword, tainted chainaxe, thunderhammer[color]
- All Marks cost 15 points (flat).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and of course Chosen can't have any Power Fists but the Champ in a regular squad can!
These "rules writers" are goddamn morons.
It's GW doing their usual top down design. Make kit, write lore, then write rules. It's only starting to go backwards where they're taking out options that aren't in the kits.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and of course Chosen can't have any Power Fists but the Champ in a regular squad can!
These "rules writers" are goddamn morons.
It's GW doing their usual top down design. Make kit, write lore, then write rules. It's only starting to go backwards where they're taking out options that aren't in the kits.
I personally can't wait to see the brilliant defense for this mess from GW's greatest defenders.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and of course Chosen can't have any Power Fists but the Champ in a regular squad can!
These "rules writers" are goddamn morons.
It's GW doing their usual top down design. Make kit, write lore, then write rules. It's only starting to go backwards where they're taking out options that aren't in the kits.
I personally can't wait to see the brilliant defense for this mess from GW's greatest defenders.
I don't try to defend it, I just shrug and move on at this point.
On a different note: Daemon Blades and access to Melee Weapons for Aspiring Champions is a nice plus for me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and of course Chosen can't have any Power Fists but the Champ in a regular squad can!
These "rules writers" are goddamn morons.
It's GW doing their usual top down design. Make kit, write lore, then write rules. It's only starting to go backwards where they're taking out options that aren't in the kits.
I personally can't wait to see the brilliant defense for this mess from GW's greatest defenders.
Bcuz it means you don't gotta convert if you want the best options y'knoooow. New players are just too dumb for that.
It's every bit as inconsistent and convoluted as I'd feared.
Some units can get the full suite of melee weapons, whereas others can only get generic specialist melee weapons. And even then the Chosen options are still a nightmare.
And then other units don't have points costs for their weapon options, and basic things like Lightning Claws and Jump Packs just aren't there. And the Exalted Champion... no options. God damn it GW...
And the fething Traitor Guard aren't even in there. I thought they'd get the Corsair treatment - an Elite unit using all the specialist bits from the KT sprue, and then a regular Troops squad.
[EDIT]: Oh you've got to be kidding me...
"You cannot select the same Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon more than once per unit."
In a vain attempt to be optimistic about traitor guard, could they be left out as the are getting their own codex, or rules in the new guard codex (traitor regimental rules?).
Andykp wrote: In a vain attempt to be optimistic about traitor guard, could they be left out as the are getting their own codex, or rules in the new guard codex (traitor regimental rules?).
Why does the Daemon Prince need to have a different save vs shooting and vs melee? What purposes does that actually serve beyond adding more rules bloat?
Gotta say, I'm one of the GW apologists/optimists, and I'm feeling pretty bummed and disappointed by the release. Maybe it's because it got hyped up so much early on, but at least in the moment not getting Huron, not getting Bikers, not incorporating traitor guard, the rules not really wowing me, it's got me feeling that it would be better to shelve my CSM army for the time being.
After seeing the treatment that Eldar got, this feels a little phoned in relatively speaking, from rules fluff to redesigned models/new kits. The new mortals units are awesome and I love them, a lot (reminds me of the Thing), but they don't seem designed to be the mainstay of the army either - I'm not really sure anything does.
They were never going to please everyone - the issue with this faction is it's so damn fractious about what the fans want that nothing less than a really, really large treatment would satisfy everyone, since half the players want it to be distinct thematically (more possessed, more slaves, more daemon engines, see Word Bearers) while others want it to more resemble heresy era or contemporary warfare (see: Iron Warriors (half of them), Alpha Legion, etc.). Still, I would have hoped we'd get something to actually be excited about.
The instable design paradigms of CSM give me some weird level of anxiety that make me want to go play Xenos instead (if only I hadn't sold my poor Orks!). At least there you sort of know what you're going to get, even if admittedly it's not historically much. Or my Daemons, who are never going to have to worry about options since nothing will ever be updated at this rate.
Jesus... we don't even get the new Daemon Prince rules because the model isn't out, so we get what is essentially a placeholder entry. A giant "Watch this space!", or, as some here are so quick to comment, "Wait and see!".
These writers are unabashed morons who have been fething Chaos over and over and over again since September 2007.
Im really starting to feel that GW cares less about modeling for cool or fluff and only for "MaH InTeRnAl BaLanCe", and it is not helping anything other than causing issues for people who do not want to cut their kits apart that they spent countless days on, and it makes no since to why chaos would stop mass equiping units for specalised tasks, like termies with fists, and not some strange possesed weapon etc...
H.B.M.C. wrote: Why does the Daemon Prince need to have a different save vs shooting and vs melee? What purposes does that actually serve beyond adding more rules bloat?
Okay, this rule is actually reasonable.
Daemons are creatures of emotions-the visceral and up close emotions of melee are better at banishing them than less passionate shooting. It's certainly not impossible to banish with a gun. But it's easier to do it in melee.
This rule makes sense, from an in-universe perspective, and isn't really hard to remember or requiring of niggly details or anything.
false_kharis wrote: Im really starting to feel that GW cares less about modeling for cool or fluff and only for "MaH InTeRnAl BaLanCe", and it is not helping anything other than causing issues for people who do not want to cut their kits apart that they spent countless days on, and it makes no since to why chaos would stop mass equiping units for specalised tasks, like termies with fists, and not some strange possesed weapon etc...
It's not about balance (since all of these options can be balanced without any issues), it's about theme park vs. sandbox design. 40k used to be more of a sandbox game, with open-ended rules for unit construction and the expectation that you build your own cool stuff. Now GW wants it to be a theme park where you buy a single box, build it exactly according to the instructions, and use the specific rules for that box. Who cares if you've been playing that 2x melta gun squad for over a decade, rip them apart and put in appropriate weapons because the sprue designer only put one melta gun on the sprue and GW doesn't want you looking for third-party melta guns.
(And yes, it's a profoundly stupid approach to the situation.)
Noise Marines and Sonic Weapons are "GOOD" now; +1 damage within half range!
Blastmaster:
Single Freq 48" Heavy 3/S8/AP-3/Dam 3/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]
Varied Freq 36" Assault D6/S5/AP-2/Dam 1/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]
Sonic Blasters: 24" Assault 3/S4/AP-1/Dam 1/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]
Doom Siren: 12" Assault D6/S5/AP-3/Dam 1/auto hits/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]
They lost ignore cover, but it look like it was just baked into the weapons profile since the all went up -1 AP.
Noise marines did loose Music of the Apocalypse though.
Excrusciating Frequencies: [1CP]
Shooting Phase select an enemy unit, unmodofoed wound rolls of 6 cause a MW in addtion to any normal damage.
A unit cannot suffer more than 6 MW per phase as the result of this stratagem.
After make your attacks select on target unit that was hit with a sonic weapon this phase, .
Until your next turn that enemy unit cannot fire overwatch or set to defend.
JNAProductions wrote: Daemons are creatures of emotions-the visceral and up close emotions of melee are better at banishing them than less passionate shooting. It's certainly not impossible to banish with a gun. But it's easier to do it in melee.
You can justify anything with the fluff. I could just as easily say the opposite and be as right or as wrong as you are.
Dumb rules are dumb rules, no matter how you spin them. It's bloat, and adds nothing.
JNAProductions wrote: Daemons are creatures of emotions-the visceral and up close emotions of melee are better at banishing them than less passionate shooting. It's certainly not impossible to banish with a gun. But it's easier to do it in melee.
You can justify anything with the fluff. I could just as easily say the opposite and be as right or as wrong as you are.
Dumb rules are dumb rules, no matter how you spin them. It's bloat, and adds nothing.
So where's the fluff that it's more effective to shoot a Daemon than it is to melee one?
Is it bloat that Knights have Ion Shields too? That's a different save in melee than at range.
false_kharis wrote: Im really starting to feel that GW cares less about modeling for cool or fluff and only for "MaH InTeRnAl BaLanCe", and it is not helping anything other than causing issues for people who do not want to cut their kits apart that they spent countless days on, and it makes no since to why chaos would stop mass equiping units for specalised tasks, like termies with fists, and not some strange possesed weapon etc...
It's not about balance (since all of these options can be balanced without any issues), it's about theme park vs. sandbox design. 40k used to be more of a sandbox game, with open-ended rules for unit construction and the expectation that you build your own cool stuff. Now GW wants it to be a theme park where you buy a single box, build it exactly according to the instructions, and use the specific rules for that box. Who cares if you've been playing that 2x melta gun squad for over a decade, rip them apart and put in appropriate weapons because the sprue designer only put one melta gun on the sprue and GW doesn't want you looking for third-party melta guns.
(And yes, it's a profoundly stupid approach to the situation.)
Yeah if it were for balance we wouldn't have the Sword Brethren dataslate as is.
Sersi wrote: Damnit. Only one Blastmaster per squad now. Why?
Because the (incompatible) upgradepacks only come with one each.
JNAProductions wrote: So where's the fluff that it's more effective to shoot a Daemon than it is to melee one?
Where's the fluff that it's more effective to fight one in melee than shooting it?
JNAProductions wrote: Is it bloat that Knights have Ion Shields too? That's a different save in melee than at range.
No the Ion Shield only works against ranged attacks. The Daemon Prince has different rules that don't add anything to the game. They're just one more thing on an ever-growing list of things to remember. Hence: Bloat.
Sersi wrote: Damnit. Only one Blastmaster per squad now. Why?
Because the (incompatible) upgradepacks only come with one each.
JNAProductions wrote: So where's the fluff that it's more effective to shoot a Daemon than it is to melee one?
Where's the fluff that it's more effective to fight one in melee than shooting it?
JNAProductions wrote: Is it bloat that Knights have Ion Shields too? That's a different save in melee than at range.
No the Ion Shield only works against ranged attacks. The Daemon Prince has different rules that don't add anything to the game. They're just one more thing on an ever-growing list of things to remember. Hence: Bloat.
So would you rather they have two separate rules, one granting a 4+ invuln to ranged only and one to a 5+ invuln only in melee, or just universally?
Why is "3+/5++ against ranged, 3+/- in melee" okay for Knights, but "3+/4++ against ranged, 3+/5++ in melee" not okay for a Daemon?
What happened to this book?
5++ for Oblits: Daemonic (also has Daemonkin and Daemon Keywords)
5++ for Possessed: Daemonkin (also has Daemonkin and Daemon Keywords)
4++/5++ for DP: also Daemonic. But at least he isn’t daemonkin.
Why is this inconsistent? Was this written by five different people at five different stages of the edition?
Bonus: DP is for the old kit, not the new kit, which we know has the gun. So this whole datasheet is already invalid in T-minus 6 months or less.
Can't be undivided, but undivided is an option elsewhere. 'k
Chosen- no special weapons anymore. And.. the unit options they have are… limited and stupid. Swapping a gun for a single bonus attack on one guy is just… weird. Sorry, no.
Dinobot weapon ‘choices’ just make me angry.
No duplicate special/heavy weapons for legionaries. No, what? What? That is so incredibly petty. Also, what's a 'tainted chainaxe?' (its the last thing on the point list for the squad) It isn't the heavy chainaxe because that has rules and is 10 points. Is it on the melee weapons list that is a secret to only noise marines and legionary champions (and not any of the veterans)?
Terminators are just a middle finger.
Master of executions. Still a cool concept. Still can’t get there.
Oh yeah, it looks atrocious. I like the 4+ Invuln against shooting/5+ Invuln in melee for Daemons… but why is it only on the Prince? If Possessed and Obliterators don’t get it because they’re still too Mariney, shouldn’t the Prince be the same? And why does it have the same name?
Conceptually it’s fine. But seeing it has the same name as another, similar BUT NOT THE SAME rule… gag.
It’s weird, this codex could have been released months ago or even last year. There’s nothing revolutionary or outstanding to make people wait this long for this book. Oh dear.
It works for me and my Iron Warriors, but I’m just a casual chaos player, I feel for the hardcore dedicated ones.
Gratlugg wrote: Gotta say, I'm one of the GW apologists/optimists, and I'm feeling pretty bummed and disappointed by the release. Maybe it's because it got hyped up so much early on, but at least in the moment not getting Huron, not getting Bikers, not incorporating traitor guard, the rules not really wowing me, it's got me feeling that it would be better to shelve my CSM army for the time being.
After seeing the treatment that Eldar got, this feels a little phoned in relatively speaking, from rules fluff to redesigned models/new kits. The new mortals units are awesome and I love them, a lot (reminds me of the Thing), but they don't seem designed to be the mainstay of the army either - I'm not really sure anything does.
They were never going to please everyone - the issue with this faction is it's so damn fractious about what the fans want that nothing less than a really, really large treatment would satisfy everyone, since half the players want it to be distinct thematically (more possessed, more slaves, more daemon engines, see Word Bearers) while others want it to more resemble heresy era or contemporary warfare (see: Iron Warriors (half of them), Alpha Legion, etc.). Still, I would have hoped we'd get something to actually be excited about.
The instable design paradigms of CSM give me some weird level of anxiety that make me want to go play Xenos instead (if only I hadn't sold my poor Orks!). At least there you sort of know what you're going to get, even if admittedly it's not historically much. Or my Daemons, who are never going to have to worry about options since nothing will ever be updated at this rate.
I'm speaking from a pure basis of speculation, but it feels like CSM are in a bit of a limbo right now. It seems the push is to get the cult legions out of the book. I feel like this limbo is going to continue until EC are in their own book (likely in 10th if we're lucky) but hopefully that'll help give the CSM book a more concentrate design direction they can run with.
Or maybe I'm wrong and the issue is they're still trying to decide what to do with CSM right now and the issue is we don't have anyone to really champion the faction in the 40k studio.
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Eldarain wrote: Chaos Marines conduct themselves in a strict and ordered fashion which is enacted the same way every battle... Sure.
My guess is that the studio looked at how the C:SM tactics were used and decided to no repeat the mistake and instead push people to play how they envision Astartes fighting: by closing the distance and then engaging in melee, not gearing up with heavy weapons and trying to stack bonuses that way.
I'm not saying this is right or wrong, just saying why I think this approach was taken.
Because the current model doesn't have it, even though the upcoming model does, but no model = no rule, and we don't have that model yet, so we don't get that rule yet.
Because kit dont have it, and they seem to be only going off what the kits did and did not have, as you can see with termies, and chosen, along with the prince, and for some reason kitlocking is a cool and hip new thing they want to do to us.
ClockworkZion wrote: Or maybe I'm wrong and the issue is they're still trying to decide what to do with CSM right now and the issue is we don't have anyone to really champion the faction in the 40k studio.
If true this would therefore beg the question: Why are they releasing (let alone writing) Codices for armies that they haven't figured out?
ClockworkZion wrote: Or maybe I'm wrong and the issue is they're still trying to decide what to do with CSM right now and the issue is we don't have anyone to really champion the faction in the 40k studio.
If true this would therefore beg the question: Why are they releasing (let alone writing) Codices for armies that they haven't figured out?
ClockworkZion wrote: Or maybe I'm wrong and the issue is they're still trying to decide what to do with CSM right now and the issue is we don't have anyone to really champion the faction in the 40k studio.
If true this would therefore beg the question: Why are they releasing (let alone writing) Codices for armies that they haven't figured out?
ClockworkZion wrote: Or maybe I'm wrong and the issue is they're still trying to decide what to do with CSM right now and the issue is we don't have anyone to really champion the faction in the 40k studio.
If true this would therefore beg the question: Why are they releasing (let alone writing) Codices for armies that they haven't figured out?
Money.
I mean, we have people in this very forum saying we should be paying for these codices.
Doesn't look like rules that should be paid for to me.
ClockworkZion wrote: Or maybe I'm wrong and the issue is they're still trying to decide what to do with CSM right now and the issue is we don't have anyone to really champion the faction in the 40k studio.
If true this would therefore beg the question: Why are they releasing (let alone writing) Codices for armies that they haven't figured out?
Money.
I mean, we have people in this very forum saying we should be paying for these codices.
Doesn't look like rules that should be paid for to me.
Yeah, GW strips out most of the fluff compared to previous editions and now they're adding idiotic "no model, no rules" changes on top of that and invalidating existing models? I might play CSM but I sure as hell won't be paying for this abomination of a codex.
ClockworkZion wrote: Or maybe I'm wrong and the issue is they're still trying to decide what to do with CSM right now and the issue is we don't have anyone to really champion the faction in the 40k studio.
If true this would therefore beg the question: Why are they releasing (let alone writing) Codices for armies that they haven't figured out?
Because they more than likely have a mandate to get every codex updated.
Sersi wrote: Damnit. Only one Blastmaster per squad now. Why?
Because the (incompatible) upgradepacks only come with one each.
True but these are 6 weapons, so you need 2 for a full unit and thus it should be 2 Blastmasters. Same as with the PM weapon options.
If GW wants to stick to no model no rules they should at least be consistent.
The sad part right now is for me the terminator entry. I can only field 3 of my 10. Lets pray to the dark gods that we get a Legend entry soon to get those options back. PS: I do not play tournaments
The worst thing about the leaks is that the book seems like it is already written with an expiration date. It seems likely with the rumours we have that there will be another wave of models that will be reworked, also as already mentioned it seems like EC won’t stay for long. This is almost like that unnecessary 2.0 tome that than needed a ton of supplement books. Another predatory release. Why can chaos not just get a solid book to play for some time like orher factions do?
I'm speaking from a pure basis of speculation, but it feels like CSM are in a bit of a limbo right now. It seems the push is to get the cult legions out of the book. I feel like this limbo is going to continue until EC are in their own book (likely in 10th if we're lucky) but hopefully that'll help give the CSM book a more concentrate design direction they can run with.
Or maybe I'm wrong and the issue is they're still trying to decide what to do with CSM right now and the issue is we don't have anyone to really champion the faction in the 40k studio.
Chaos Marines have been 'in limbo' for 2 years, when they said all space marines would be getting 2 wounds.
And even before then, when the scale change happened and not all models have been brought up to that new scale.
And even before then, when the dinobots came out but the 3rd edition upgrade sprue for vehicles hasn't changed.
I've been waiting for a long time for this Codex and... here's the bottom line: I've lost interest in playing the faction. These rules are trash. The Emperor's Children 'let's play a minigame' for maybe 1 or 2 additional attacks, the bupkis with accursed weapons, getting copy-paste doctrines, pretty much every infantry unit option being stripped of choices and limited... Oh, and by the way, take a look at the Legionaries and plasma pistols.
They can take a plasma pistol instead of a bolter. But chainswords also replace the bolter. So if you take a plasma pistols, you just have a plasma pistol and bolt pistol for each model, which you can't actual make out of the box as is. So, day 1 FAQ will be needed to fix that oversight.
Being limited to 1 of each weapon is annoying, and adding in the options for the legionaries is just... a mess of over-priced weirdness...
Some units have a plethora of melee weapons and things that their champs can take while others have had options stripped out for no apparent reason (raptor champ can't be bothered to take a lightning claw, despite there being tons in the box)
And on top of that, the range isn't even complete. 3rd edition vehicles and bikes. No multi-option Chaos lord. Terminator Lord and Terminator Sorcerer (shut up about it holding up, it's old) Huron Blackheart. Emperor's Children. We will continue to be in limbo until the rest of our options are brought out of 3rd and 4th edition.
If GW truly has nobody 'championing' Chaos (which is pretty obvious) I'd honestly rather they just squat the faction. Y'know, the faction that is born out of the 2nd edition of that huge new game they're pushing. The faction that's supposed to have the Imperium shaking in its boots. The faction with some of the most ruthless leaders and terrifying warbands the galaxy has ever seen. Yeah, just squat it if they're going to treat it this poorly.
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charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: The worst thing about the leaks is that the book seems like it is already written with an expiration date. It seems likely with the rumours we have that there will be another wave of models that will be reworked, also as already mentioned it seems like EC won’t stay for long. This is almost like that unnecessary 2.0 tome that than needed a ton of supplement books. Another predatory release. Why can chaos not just get a solid book to play for some time like orher factions do?
Frankly, this is my impression too.
There's Astra Militarum, World Eaters, Chaos Daemons, and Leagues of Votann to release between now and next summer when 10th is likely to drop. That's actually not a lot of 40k books across a whole year, but 1 is going to be a big update and 2 are brand new factions that'll get a ton of new things. That's where their attention is now, and Chaos Marines and Chaos Daemons are simply 'in the way' of them bringing in those new factions and keeping attention on Horus Heresy.
All we can do is pray that sometime around 11th or maybe 12th edition that Chaos Marines will be decently represented.
Also, watch the Traitor Guard be a separate file on Warcom you gotta print out, like the Novitiates for Sisters of Battle.
Book seemingly has expiration date soon TM.
Datasheets completely fethed.
Options for hq, now dark eldar level non existant.
Traitorguardsmen , where are thou?
Iow when are we holding gw to task ,because this isn't acceptable.
For my part , if that is the quality provided for a service costing me 55$ approx, only to be forced to buy another campaign book to get the new stuff like dp datasheet update and having invalidated half my army through outright moronical equipment restrictions and plaguemarineitis , well then i ain't buying and just not bothering with 40k anymore or hoisting a certain flag.
I've been waiting for a long time for this Codex and... here's the bottom line: I've lost interest in playing the faction. These rules are trash. The Emperor's Children 'let's play a minigame' for maybe 1 or 2 additional attacks, the bupkis with accursed weapons, getting copy-paste doctrines, pretty much every infantry unit option being stripped of choices and limited... Oh, and by the way, take a look at the Legionaries and plasma pistols
This puts it nicely, but i can't even be mad because i called that bs when we got to know about placeholder weapons ,sorry AccuRSEd WeaPoNS"
Because it's not an actual part of the model and the model with the gun isn't out until later this year.
The curved-in portion of the left biomechanical arm I think is supposed to be the bolter, based on the design of the old metal model.
The comments about this codex being something of a placeholder might be true, and based on the rules leaks, it just looks like it's not something I'm interested in to buy. Honestly, while your hobby is your hobby, I would recommend to disgruntled CSM fans to not buy the codex and make it very clear to GW what you don't like about it (letters, emails, etc). Voting with your wallet plus being specific about your demands is a good way to bring about change. So far the stuff that I don't like and that others don't like are:
- Unnecessary removal of jump lord
- Gimping of daemon prince profile
- Removal of Cult Marines data sheets from codex, and the inability of them to take Legion traits
- Removal of Mutilators
- Tanks are still weak and not good at all
- Restrictive and convoluted weapons rules that absolutely wreck alot of peoples' assembled armies; accursed weapons are not in any way an acceptable replacement for the previous options. This is probably the biggest one. The new data sheets for units like Chosen, Legionnaires, and Terminators are insulting to the fan base.
I think I'll spend my money on buying more models, focusing on Death Guard and possibly World Eaters (I really hope that codex is good) in terms of play.
Just for the glaring typos and errors (the aforementioned Plasma Pistols).
The best recourse other than not buying the codex would be to buy then return for a refund. This is better than not buying.
The product isn't fit for purpose.
If enough returns happen it really does feth GW.
The books are normally sealed so once opened have to be returned and destroyed. This is an on cost to GW.
As well, GW have a processing fee on the initial transaction and then the refund.
Seems like its a bit much? A faf? A ballache?
It wouldn't take many returns to be noticed. High hundreds for a niche book on day one release would be noticed by the bean counters.
Hundreds of faulty returns are an issue to GW. GW has to say to investors 'Hey we had multiple retuns on day one release' They then have to tell the investors why and the steps to remedy the issue.
Mr. Burning wrote: Just for the glaring typos and errors (the aforementioned Plasma Pistols).
The best recourse other than not buying the codex would be to buy then return for a refund. This is better than not buying.
The product isn't fit for purpose.
If enough returns happen it really does feth GW.
The books are normally sealed so once opened have to be returned and destroyed. This is an on cost to GW.
As well, GW have a processing fee on the initial transaction and then the refund.
Seems like its a bit much? A faf? A ballache?
It wouldn't take many returns to be noticed. High hundreds for a niche book on day one release would be noticed by the bean counters.
Hundreds of faulty returns are an issue to GW. GW has to say to investors 'Hey we had multiple retuns on day one release' They then have to tell the investors why and the steps to remedy the issue.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and of course Chosen can't have any Power Fists but the Champ in a regular squad can!
These "rules writers" are goddamn morons.
It's just painfully lazy, isn't it? They are SO WORRIED about someone using things outside the fething box that they shoehorn in ridiculous rules to make sure you have to stick to the sprue that they designed in the laziest way possible. The Terminator options are agony to read.
It made me want to vomit. They managed to strip out the few remaining vestiges of customization from an army with the word CHAOS in it. Such a fething pile of gak.
From the leaked pages I've seen it doesn't appear that the Official Legion Traits include a third bonus for Chaos Doctrines. So, sadly no +2 hits on 6's to hit in melee for Emperor's Children.
Sersi wrote: From the leaked pages I've seen it doesn't appear that the Official Legion Traits include a third bonus for Chaos Doctrines. So, sadly no +2 hits on 6's to hit in melee for Emperor's Children.
Well, the superdoctrines for Marines are not included within their actual chapter traits and we also have no scans of the full pages of the Legion rules.
ClockworkZion wrote: Or maybe I'm wrong and the issue is they're still trying to decide what to do with CSM right now and the issue is we don't have anyone to really champion the faction in the 40k studio.
If true this would therefore beg the question: Why are they releasing (let alone writing) Codices for armies that they haven't figured out?
Gotta maintain that trademark, I guess. Same reason there's always a new Optimus Prime and Megatron toy every year whether they need one or not.
I can't tell whether the book will be 'good' or not from what's shown but it sure feels like a total clusterfeth, I was super excited and they've managed to just pap all over that with the bizzaro rules writing and lack of direction.
I think placeholder is indeed the correct term. I imagine a lost & damned book might be on the way, I imagine the mutants are possibly dual system so thrown in as a "why not". I'd not be shocked if the Cultists were like tzaangors down the line with a sigmar sprue option.
Then chaos marines are just the great wtfever holding ground book.
Done whining, thank you for allowing me to add my salt.
SicSemperTyrannis wrote: Would you buy the V2.0 version of the codex in a few months if it allows you to add the Jump Pack Lord back in? Asking for a friend
No, AT this stage v2 would need to be in essence 3.5 level customizable, balanced and in essence may aswell be the second coming of christ level happenstance.
SicSemperTyrannis wrote: Would you buy the V2.0 version of the codex in a few months if it allows you to add the Jump Pack Lord back in? Asking for a friend
No, AT this stage v2 would need to be in essence 3.5 level customizable, balanced and in essence may aswell be the second coming of christ level happenstance.
I'd accept something that isn't less cohesive than 8.2 tbh, but they've dug a deep hole with this one for chaos fans, it'll take a small miracle to keep people happy.
I'm generally very positive towards releases and GW as a whole, but God knows what lead to this, they managed to please nobody rules wise it seems.
SicSemperTyrannis wrote: Would you buy the V2.0 version of the codex in a few months if it allows you to add the Jump Pack Lord back in? Asking for a friend
No, AT this stage v2 would need to be in essence 3.5 level customizable, balanced and in essence may aswell be the second coming of christ level happenstance.
I'd accept something that isn't less cohesive than 7.2 tbh, but they've dug a deep hole with this one for chaos fans, it'll take a small miracle to keep people happy.
I'm generally very positive towards releases and GW as a whole, but God knows what lead to this, they managed to please nobody rules wise it seems.
The models are rarely the problem gw has , the new ones whilest i don't like the cultists, are good enough still.
However prices and especially the ruleset for the faction is not acceptable. And certainly not acceptable In a price relation to quality over here... 50chf for non checked restrictive unimaginative murder of trees printed in china ain't it chief,nope.
Mr. Burning wrote: Just for the glaring typos and errors (the aforementioned Plasma Pistols).
The best recourse other than not buying the codex would be to buy then return for a refund. This is better than not buying.
This is a really good idea, hadn't thought of it.
Unfortunately, it's highly unlikely to work, for two main reasons:
- No way would this end up going to investors. Maybe middle management somewhere would notice, but realistically this wouldn't even hit the Head Of level, let alone directors or investors. Maybe if the returns were in the thousands or even tens of thousands, but not for hundreds and certainly not for dozens.
- There's a good chance you wouldn't be able to return it, and even if you could it would likely only be for store credit (which probably shows up differently in the MI). Much as you might like to think the book's not fit for purpose, that's factually incorrect - you can use the book for its intended purpose I.e. building a Chaos Marine list in line with GW's designed rules. Also, with the app code in the back of the book, they may not accept it outside of shrink-wrap as you could easily have used it.
So while the idea is theoretically reasonable as a way of making a statement, it's not as practical or as effective as a standard boycott.
Sersi wrote: Noise Marines and Sonic Weapons are "GOOD" now; +1 damage within half range!
Blastmaster:
Single Freq 48" Heavy 3/S8/AP-3/Dam 3/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]
Varied Freq 36" Assault D6/S5/AP-2/Dam 1/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]
Sonic Blasters: 24" Assault 3/S4/AP-1/Dam 1/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]
Doom Siren: 12" Assault D6/S5/AP-3/Dam 1/auto hits/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]
They lost ignore cover, but it look like it was just baked into the weapons profile since the all went up -1 AP.
Noise marines did loose Music of the Apocalypse though.
Excrusciating Frequencies: [1CP]
Shooting Phase select an enemy unit, unmodofoed wound rolls of 6 cause a MW in addtion to any normal damage.
A unit cannot suffer more than 6 MW per phase as the result of this stratagem.
After make your attacks select on target unit that was hit with a sonic weapon this phase, .
Until your next turn that enemy unit cannot fire overwatch or set to defend.
Then explain this to me- If I just want Noise Marines with boltguns then a unit of them is 210 points. If I want a unit of Legionaires with bolt guns and the mark of Slaanesh then I pay 195 points. They have the exact same stats and rules. Why am I paying 15 points more for an elite unit over a Troop unit with identical everythings? If the sonic weapons make that much difference then they should just up the price of them. As far as I have seen there isn't a special strat or anything that applies only to Noise Marines. So what gives?
Sersi wrote: Noise Marines and Sonic Weapons are "GOOD" now; +1 damage within half range!
Blastmaster:
Single Freq 48" Heavy 3/S8/AP-3/Dam 3/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]
Varied Freq 36" Assault D6/S5/AP-2/Dam 1/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]
Sonic Blasters: 24" Assault 3/S4/AP-1/Dam 1/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]
Doom Siren: 12" Assault D6/S5/AP-3/Dam 1/auto hits/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]
They lost ignore cover, but it look like it was just baked into the weapons profile since the all went up -1 AP.
Noise marines did loose Music of the Apocalypse though.
Excrusciating Frequencies: [1CP]
Shooting Phase select an enemy unit, unmodofoed wound rolls of 6 cause a MW in addtion to any normal damage.
A unit cannot suffer more than 6 MW per phase as the result of this stratagem.
After make your attacks select on target unit that was hit with a sonic weapon this phase, .
Until your next turn that enemy unit cannot fire overwatch or set to defend.
Then explain this to me- If I just want Noise Marines with boltguns then a unit of them is 210 points. If I want a unit of Legionaires with bolt guns and the mark of Slaanesh then I pay 195 points. They have the exact same stats and rules. Why am I paying 15 points more for an elite unit over a Troop unit with identical everythings? If the sonic weapons make that much difference then they should just up the price of them. As far as I have seen there isn't a special strat or anything that applies only to Noise Marines. So what gives?
Then explain this to me- If I just want Noise Marines with boltguns then a unit of them is 210 points. If I want a unit of Legionaires with bolt guns and the mark of Slaanesh then I pay 195 points. They have the exact same stats and rules. Why am I paying 15 points more for an elite unit over a Troop unit with identical everythings? If the sonic weapons make that much difference then they should just up the price of them. As far as I have seen there isn't a special strat or anything that applies only to Noise Marines. So what gives?
If it makes sense or it's easy, GW doesn't do it. This is the eternal rule.
Mr. Burning wrote: Just for the glaring typos and errors (the aforementioned Plasma Pistols).
The best recourse other than not buying the codex would be to buy then return for a refund. This is better than not buying.
This is a really good idea, hadn't thought of it.
Unfortunately, it's highly unlikely to work, for two main reasons:
- No way would this end up going to investors. Maybe middle management somewhere would notice, but realistically this wouldn't even hit the Head Of level, let alone directors or investors. Maybe if the returns were in the thousands or even tens of thousands, but not for hundreds and certainly not for dozens. - There's a good chance you wouldn't be able to return it, and even if you could it would likely only be for store credit (which probably shows up differently in the MI). Much as you might like to think the book's not fit for purpose, that's factually incorrect - you can use the book for its intended purpose I.e. building a Chaos Marine list in line with GW's designed rules. Also, with the app code in the back of the book, they may not accept it outside of shrink-wrap as you could easily have used it.
So while the idea is theoretically reasonable as a way of making a statement, it's not as practical or as effective as a standard boycott.
It would certainly be doable in the UK if you bought it online. You are legally guaranteed the right to return goods within 14 days of receiving them. That is, you have 14 days to notify the seller that you wish to return your order. You then have 14 days from that point to return the goods and the seller must then refund you within 14 days of them receiving the goods. This requires no reason for the return.
People who believe in "Vote with your wallet" and forms of consumer protest live in a fantasy world. Please do not attempt """"""""""""embargos""""""""""""""" or these bizarre attempts at protest - they are an embarrassing waste of time.
What is most telling about this codex is that many of its previous defenders have now admitted yep, it's dogshit. I'm sure someone will, as part of the ever present cult of optimists, somehow find a way to argue it's good actually.
Not terribly impressed with what's come out, but wouldn't call it a complete loss.
We will be seeing a lot of lists consisting of Daemon Engines / Mutants.
The Good
- Finally, we get 2W on PA troops. Huzzah!
- Abaddon seems like a steal. Impressive datasheet and points cost.
- Mutants and Torments seem very cheap for the points.
- Obliterators are cheaper, which is always appreciated.
- Venomcrawler as Fast Attack means you could take 6 Daemon Engines in a single detachment.
- Daemon Engines with WS 3 / BS3 makes them a legitimate threat.
- Legionnaires can still take weapons that are not on their sprue. Was concerned.
- Same with Havocs.
- MoE is now an elite, which could make him useful.
The Bad
- There's this blob of units that costs 25 - 35 ppm. Bikers, Spawn, Possessed, Terminators, Chosen, and Warp Talons. None of them are bad at what they do, nor are any of them that great for the points. I need the full rules to figure out if they're actually an upgrade over massed Mutants / Torments.
- The Daemon Prince datasheet seems like a misprint. Still a terror, but he should be better.
- Possessed are pretty expensive. Assuming 3W / T5 / D2 attacks, wondering they are truly worth it compared to double the number of Mutants.
- Even with 2W, Bikers don't seem worth it for the cost.
- The Heldrake still doesn't seem to have a role in most lists. He just doesn't do enough to justify the price.
- Sonic Blasters don't actually seem like an improvement. 1 less shot, you only get 2D at half range.
The Ugly
- No clue how this would compete against AdMech, Tau, Drukhari or Custodes. Not seeing anything to counter some of the more common lists for these factions, much less the most competitive. Even Speedfreaks will find Chaos weak.
- Looks like you need other Codexes for Cult Troops (other than Noise Marines.) Which means you're spending $50 on another Codex if you want to field them. Probably only an option for players who have both armies.
- Chaos Lords without Terminator armor are severely limited because f$%^ing jump packs are gone. Was hoping this was an inaccurate rumor.
- Chosen at 25 ppm, plus 10 ppm for combi weapons, cost more than Terminators without the armor or deep strike. After all that hype, I can't see a reason to take them.
- Lord of Skulls has become a thematic option. He's more expensive than a Chaos Knight, who probably outclasses him in every way.
- Still no love for Preds / LRs / Vindicators. Considering they are outclassed by every Imperial option, why not just move them to Legends?
I think that I've figured out the answer to my own question of why the cost disparity between Legionaires with bolters and Noise Marines with bolters. The answer was obvious when I thought of it. It's licensing! GW has to pay a licensing fee to Slaanesh for using his trademarked name "Noise Marine". It's like generics vs name brand you pay more for the name brand due to reasons even though they are exactly the same product made in the same place by the same people. So, at least now, I have an explanation that makes sense.
- Still no love for Preds / LRs / Vindicators. Considering they are outclassed by every Imperial option, why not just move them to Legends?
I understand that GW is not too invested in keeping the furstborn motorpool competitive. But CSM rely much more on their Preds and Vindicaors as they have fewer alternatives. GW should have been more considerate here.
techsoldaten wrote: Not terribly impressed with what's come out, but wouldn't call it a complete loss.
We will be seeing a lot of lists consisting of Daemon Engines / Mutants.
Spoiler:
The Good
- Finally, we get 2W on PA troops. Huzzah!
- Abaddon seems like a steal. Impressive datasheet and points cost.
- Mutants and Torments seem very cheap for the points.
- Obliterators are cheaper, which is always appreciated.
- Venomcrawler as Fast Attack means you could take 6 Daemon Engines in a single detachment.
- Daemon Engines with WS 3 / BS3 makes them a legitimate threat.
- Legionnaires can still take weapons that are not on their sprue. Was concerned.
- Same with Havocs.
- MoE is now an elite, which could make him useful.
The Bad
- There's this blob of units that costs 25 - 35 ppm. Bikers, Spawn, Possessed, Terminators, Chosen, and Warp Talons. None of them are bad at what they do, nor are any of them that great for the points. I need the full rules to figure out if they're actually an upgrade over massed Mutants / Torments.
- The Daemon Prince datasheet seems like a misprint. Still a terror, but he should be better.
- Possessed are pretty expensive. Assuming 3W / T5 / D2 attacks, wondering they are truly worth it compared to double the number of Mutants.
- Even with 2W, Bikers don't seem worth it for the cost.
- The Heldrake still doesn't seem to have a role in most lists. He just doesn't do enough to justify the price.
- Sonic Blasters don't actually seem like an improvement. 1 less shot, you only get 2D at half range.
The Ugly
- No clue how this would compete against AdMech, Tau, Drukhari or Custodes. Not seeing anything to counter some of the more common lists for these factions, much less the most competitive. Even Speedfreaks will find Chaos weak.
- Looks like you need other Codexes for Cult Troops (other than Noise Marines.) Which means you're spending $50 on another Codex if you want to field them. Probably only an option for players who have both armies.
- Chaos Lords without Terminator armor are severely limited because f$%^ing jump packs are gone. Was hoping this was an inaccurate rumor.
- Chosen at 25 ppm, plus 10 ppm for combi weapons, cost more than Terminators without the armor or deep strike. After all that hype, I can't see a reason to take them.
- Lord of Skulls has become a thematic option. He's more expensive than a Chaos Knight, who probably outclasses him in every way.
- Still no love for Preds / LRs / Vindicators. Considering they are outclassed by every Imperial option, why not just move them to Legends?
Why the love for the mutants? 10 + 3 big fellas is the same cost as 20 cultists, needs to be in melee, output isn't stellar and they're rocking t4 6+ saves so will melt like butter.
Am i right in thinking that an infantry unit like termis can be buffed to T7 ? Bile can enhance them to T5, MoP can cast mutated invigoration on them for T6, a dark apostle can prey with feculent beseechment, giving them T7, if they have mark of nurgle. As alpha legion they get -1 to hit when more than 12" away. If one dies the MoP can use pact of flesh to bring it back. Another one which is injured gets d3 wounds back. Ten T7 termis with four combi meltas, two combi plasmas, six power fists, two chainfists sounds hilarious.
Despite the lack of core or marks, Possessed for 28ppm is VERY good. The Daemonkin support from MoP's and rumoured Word Bearer strats make them very nice for that pricepoint.
Probably not a unit you'll be spamming 30 of, but I'm legit surprised they're under 30ppm.
I don't think anyone has said anything about this but (don't look H.B.M.C.) Terminators can't purchase chaos icons. I thought that the preview/rumors said that they could.
Bosskelot wrote: Despite the lack of core or marks, Possessed for 28ppm is VERY good. The Daemonkin support from MoP's and rumoured Word Bearer strats make them very nice for that pricepoint.
Probably not a unit you'll be spamming 30 of, but I'm legit surprised they're under 30ppm.
sorry, but i fail to see why i should swallow that cost, for possessed for a codex that just look like dogshit in any other regard.
Sersi wrote: Noise Marines and Sonic Weapons are "GOOD" now; +1 damage within half range!
Blastmaster:
Single Freq 48" Heavy 3/S8/AP-3/Dam 3/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]
Varied Freq 36" Assault D6/S5/AP-2/Dam 1/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]
Sonic Blasters: 24" Assault 3/S4/AP-1/Dam 1/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]
Doom Siren: 12" Assault D6/S5/AP-3/Dam 1/auto hits/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]
They lost ignore cover, but it look like it was just baked into the weapons profile since the all went up -1 AP.
Noise marines did loose Music of the Apocalypse though.
Excrusciating Frequencies: [1CP]
Shooting Phase select an enemy unit, unmodofoed wound rolls of 6 cause a MW in addtion to any normal damage.
A unit cannot suffer more than 6 MW per phase as the result of this stratagem.
After make your attacks select on target unit that was hit with a sonic weapon this phase, .
Until your next turn that enemy unit cannot fire overwatch or set to defend.
Then explain this to me- If I just want Noise Marines with boltguns then a unit of them is 210 points. If I want a unit of Legionaires with bolt guns and the mark of Slaanesh then I pay 195 points. They have the exact same stats and rules. Why am I paying 15 points more for an elite unit over a Troop unit with identical everythings? If the sonic weapons make that much difference then they should just up the price of them. As far as I have seen there isn't a special strat or anything that applies only to Noise Marines. So what gives?
Mark of Slaanesh costs 15 pts and is now baked into the price of the Noise Marines. Which ofcourse sucks if you play EC who supposedly get the MOS for free and Noise Marines as troops. I'm not to bothered for two reasons though. One the majority of EC are not Noise Marines they should be legionaries; and second points are constantly changing now so who can say it won't be changed eventually.
Urrghhhh....I don't even know where to start with this absolute mess.
Why are all of these unit options so....arbitrary? They don't even conform to GW's moronic, idiotic, and astoundingly stupid "you get what's in the box" paradigm. Why can't Chosen have a power fist, when there's one in the kit? Why can't a Raptor Aspiring Champion have lighting claws, when there's ten of them in the kit? Why can CSM have options that aren't even in the kit, but only one of each? Why, why, WHY?!!
Why are the Daemon Prince's rules based on the old kit, when there's a new one coming?
Why are the Traitor Guardsmen missing, despite gw touting how nice they'd be in a CSM army?
Why is the best thing that they could come up with for CSM a boring variation on loyalist rules? After all of this time?
All of this time! Two years of waiting. And this is the best that they could do? This travesty. This mess. This slap in the face.
Do CSM players mean nothing to them? Do they even want our money? Do they think that we'll shell out for anything?
So many questions. But the most important one: Horus Heresy, Grimdark Future, or older editions? Where will we take our models, our armies, our support?
Because it's pretty self evident that gwdoesn't want any of those things in 40k. And I see no reason based on this to give it to them.
Remnant of the Maraviglia: once per battle +1 attacks for models within 6" for 1 turn. Its used to allow re-roll all failed wounds range and melee. SKIP
Endless Grin: 6+++ save and if slain on 3+ on D6 you return with D3 wounds. It used to force -1 LD within 6", so it better? SKIP
Distortion: 2X strength profile, and a strength user profile but each hit counts at 2 hits. Its clipped off so we don't know the AP or damage for the profiles. MAYBE
Raiment Revulsive: friendly units within 6" can shoot and still perform an action, enemy units within 6" cannot start and action. Oof...it used to allow full re-rolls to hit, wound, and charge. TRASH
Armor of Abhorrence: 3" aura enemy units [except Titanic units] within cannot fallback on a 4+ D6 roll. It was the bearer could not be overwatched and 1 additional enemy model was forced to flee. GOOD
Fatal Sonancy: at the end on the movement phase select 1 enemy unit within 12" roll 6D6 for each 4+ they suffer 1 MW. Quite the glow up from Assault D6/S6/AP-2/Dam1, averaging 3 MW each turn. GOOD
SLAANESH RELIC:
Intoxicating Elixir: once per battle in the fight phase; +D3 attacks and you can't loose more than 3 wounds. It was +1S and +1 attack to your stat line, for +5 attacks of the game with better wounding. SKIP
Statline Changes: +1S, +1 W, +1 LD Mark of Slaanesh: fights first.
Doom Siren: new and improved! 12"/Assault D6/S5/AP-3/Dam 1/auto-hits/+1 damage within half range.
Duelist Pride: when fight models with WS3+ gains +3 attacks and +1 damage, for 8 attacks at S5/AP-3/Dam3.
Armor of Shrieking Souls: 4++ save Finally! When slain roll 2D6 vs his killers LD, if the roll is lower they suffer D3 MW, otherwise D6MW.
Lash of Torment: in the fight phase select 1 enemy unit within 3", they are not eligile to fight this phase until after all eligible friendly units from your army have done so.
Lord of Chaos: friendly core units within 6" re-roll hit rolls of 1.
blood reaper wrote: People who believe in "Vote with your wallet" and forms of consumer protest live in a fantasy world. Please do not attempt """"""""""""embargos""""""""""""""" or these bizarre attempts at protest - they are an embarrassing waste of time.
What is most telling about this codex is that many of its previous defenders have now admitted yep, it's dogshit. I'm sure someone will, as part of the ever present cult of optimists, somehow find a way to argue it's good actually.
I'm usually accused of being a defender, but I'm just the "let's see the entire thing THEN be mad about it" camp. And I was right that there was more going on with Legionnaires than we were originally told so I feel somewhat vindicated there.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gadzilla666 wrote: Why are the Daemon Prince's rules based on the old kit, when there's a new one coming?
Because we weren't supposed to know about that kit until later this year when the Slaves to Darkness book was gearing up for release and we won't be able to get the model for months yet anyways?
Maybe we're mad because we saw a chance for GW to remove abilities/items that no one ever took and replace them with something that may be used/taken. An opportunity that GW blithely ignored.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Maybe we're mad because we saw a chance for GW to remove abilities/items that no one ever took and replace them with something that may be used/taken. An opportunity that GW blithely ignored.
I'm not telling people to not be mad, but at least let's not pretend some of this gak is new.
techsoldaten wrote: Not terribly impressed with what's come out, but wouldn't call it a complete loss.
We will be seeing a lot of lists consisting of Daemon Engines / Mutants.
Why the love for the mutants? 10 + 3 big fellas is the same cost as 20 cultists, needs to be in melee, output isn't stellar and they're rocking t4 6+ saves so will melt like butter.
"Love" overstates my position.
10 + 6 of them are 150 points. The Accursed Horde rule allows them to regenerate destroyed models in the Command Phase. Am assuming they have the Cultist keyword.
Pretty sure they will prove to be the superior choice, given all the Stratagems involving Cultists.
techsoldaten wrote: Not terribly impressed with what's come out, but wouldn't call it a complete loss.
We will be seeing a lot of lists consisting of Daemon Engines / Mutants.
Why the love for the mutants? 10 + 3 big fellas is the same cost as 20 cultists, needs to be in melee, output isn't stellar and they're rocking t4 6+ saves so will melt like butter.
"Love" overstates my position.
10 + 6 of them are 150 points. The Accursed Horde rule allows them to regenerate destroyed models in the Command Phase. Am assuming they have the Cultist keyword.
Pretty sure they will prove to be the superior choice, given all the Stratagems involving Cultists.
They need to not get nuked in one turn to take advantage of that regeneration. And they've got paper-thin saves in one of the killiest and most lethal edition in 40k. And there's only 16 of them
Why is the Deamon prince worse than the DG/TS one? or are they getting day one nerfs?
Its the same problem DG had, they've removed the options, no jump pack characters, no special or melee weapons on a lot of units. If they'd left the weapon options and just had Forge World do the cheaper upgrade sprue (cause everyone will source them elsewhere anyway) it would look like a damn good power armour book, cause everything none powered armoured is released at a massive boost, DE, CW, tau etc.
Traitor guard should be a guard supplement, shouldn't be in this book, I hate that they are releasing more cultist units that will be the most efficient units until a few months before our next codex, seriously GW put these in with traitor guard, leave the marine book for marines.
- Still no love for Preds / LRs / Vindicators. Considering they are outclassed by every Imperial option, why not just move them to Legends?
I understand that GW is not too invested in keeping the furstborn motorpool competitive. But CSM rely much more on their Preds and Vindicaors as they have fewer alternatives. GW should have been more considerate here.
I think it's because they're scared people will complain if the CSM versions have better stats than the loyalist ones, though it would be a super easy fix:
Filled with experimental Dark Mechnicum upgrades and demonic essence these vehicles are a far cry from the Standard Template machines that once rolled across Terra
Done. You converted a goopy Pred? It's got better stats because demons.
You want a non-demony looking Pred? It's got better stats because Dark Adept Bob had 10k years to put in better capacitors and nitrous.
10 + 6 of them are 150 points. The Accursed Horde rule allows them to regenerate destroyed models in the Command Phase. Am assuming they have the Cultist keyword.
Pretty sure they will prove to be the superior choice, given all the Stratagems involving Cultists.
They need to not get nuked in one turn to take advantage of that regeneration. And they've got paper-thin saves in one of the killiest and most lethal edition in 40k. And there's only 16 of them
Well we have our first unironic "Wait and see!" comment.
What exactly should we be waiting for? For GW to un-feth the Chosen entry? To un-feth the Raptor entry? The Terminator entry? Chaos Lords? The lack of Traitor Guard? The absurd exploding 6's Doctrines? The Daemon Prince entry? The CSM weapon options?
What are we waiting to see???
You think seeing all the relics or strats will suddenly make the weapon limitations any less stupid? Will it suddenly let Chosen units take Power Fists? Will it let Raptor Champs take Lightning Claws? Or Chaos Lords, for that matter? Will it inject a level of consistency into the melee weapon options, where they're either all unique, or all Accursed Weapons, rather than that literally changing from squad to squad?
What could we possibly have not seen that will be worth the wait?
10 + 6 of them are 150 points. The Accursed Horde rule allows them to regenerate destroyed models in the Command Phase. Am assuming they have the Cultist keyword.
Pretty sure they will prove to be the superior choice, given all the Stratagems involving Cultists.
They need to not get nuked in one turn to take advantage of that regeneration. And they've got paper-thin saves in one of the killiest and most lethal edition in 40k. And there's only 16 of them
Not sure how to respond.
Are you saying Cultists are an upgrade?
I'm simply stating that the mutatns are probably going to be bad too
H.B.M.C. wrote: Well we have our first unironic "Wait and see!" comment.
What exactly should we be waiting for? For GW to un-feth the Chosen entry? To un-feth the Raptor entry? The Terminator entry? Chaos Lords? The lack of Traitor Guard? The absurd exploding 6's Doctrines? The Daemon Prince entry? The CSM weapon options?
What are we waiting to see???
You think seeing all the relics or strats will suddenly make the weapon limitations any less stupid? Will it suddenly let Chosen units take Power Fists? Will it let Raptor Champs take Lightning Claws? Or Chaos Lords, for that matter? Will it inject a level of consistency into the melee weapon options, where they're either all unique, or all Accursed Weapons, rather than that literally changing from squad to squad?
What could we possibly have not seen that will be worth the wait?
I'm waiting to see the CSM Lord datasheet and the Night Lord Legion rules.
Picking the legion that wears bat wings on their heads meant I'd already resolved to have weak rules so I'm just trying to work out what options I'll get to run with.
blood reaper wrote: People who believe in "Vote with your wallet" and forms of consumer protest live in a fantasy world. Please do not attempt """"""""""""embargos""""""""""""""" or these bizarre attempts at protest - they are an embarrassing waste of time.
What is most telling about this codex is that many of its previous defenders have now admitted yep, it's dogshit. I'm sure someone will, as part of the ever present cult of optimists, somehow find a way to argue it's good actually.
I'm usually accused of being a defender, but I'm just the "let's see the entire thing THEN be mad about it" camp. And I was right that there was more going on with Legionnaires than we were originally told so I feel somewhat vindicated there.
You feel vindicated that dual plasma guns or dual heavy bolters are invalid now, or that a trooper can't take a plasma pistol and chainsword?
I'm really not sure what you're patting yourself on the back for.
blood reaper wrote: People who believe in "Vote with your wallet" and forms of consumer protest live in a fantasy world. Please do not attempt """"""""""""embargos""""""""""""""" or these bizarre attempts at protest - they are an embarrassing waste of time.
What is most telling about this codex is that many of its previous defenders have now admitted yep, it's dogshit. I'm sure someone will, as part of the ever present cult of optimists, somehow find a way to argue it's good actually.
I'm usually accused of being a defender, but I'm just the "let's see the entire thing THEN be mad about it" camp. And I was right that there was more going on with Legionnaires than we were originally told so I feel somewhat vindicated there.
You feel vindicated that dual plasma guns or dual heavy bolters are invalid now, or that a trooper can't take a plasma pistol and chainsword?
I'm really not sure what you're patting yourself on the back for.
I said "partially vindicated". And my vindication is that there were more melee options than the playtester info claimed is why. I was certain they'd have access to the Melee Weapons list, and there is the daemonic blade option you can use for conversion option s like if I stick chainglaives on my champions.
I chose a legion whose gimmick is leadership manipulation in a game that regularly makes it pretty damn useless so forgive me for assuming I was going to be shafted anyways.
10 + 6 of them are 150 points. The Accursed Horde rule allows them to regenerate destroyed models in the Command Phase. Am assuming they have the Cultist keyword.
Pretty sure they will prove to be the superior choice, given all the Stratagems involving Cultists.
They need to not get nuked in one turn to take advantage of that regeneration. And they've got paper-thin saves in one of the killiest and most lethal edition in 40k. And there's only 16 of them
Not sure how to respond.
Are you saying Cultists are an upgrade?
Cultists have (for the same price) can hurt you at 24", they are capable of more than just standing there soaking hits. It's more or less the same number of wounds to chew through too. I'm not sure either are great tbh.
Sonic Blasters don't actually seem like an improvement. 1 less shot, you only get 2D at half range.
They're still Assault 3 so same number of shots. They gained AP-1 but lost ignore cover so better against every thing except AOC in cover. While damage 2 at half range is just a straight buff. It's a shame though that they lost Music of the Apocalypse.
Sonic weapons are much better than 8th when you see the new codex interactions with strats and what not.
Between EC trait, warp sight plea, and excruciating frequencies, plus the slaughter rules you can end up with sonic weapons that:
Get an extra hit on 6s to hit
You can get to 2+ to hit with reroll 1s
Ignore BS and hit mods
+1D within 12"
6s to wound do a MW Another strat gives additional ap on 6s to wound.
blaktoof wrote: Sonic weapons are much better than 8th when you see the new codex interactions with strats and what not.
Between EC trait, warp sight plea, and excruciating frequencies, plus the slaughter rules you can end up with sonic weapons that:
Get an extra hit on 6s to hit
You can get to 2+ to hit with reroll 1s
Ignore BS and hit mods
+1D within 12"
6s to wound do a MW Another strat gives additional ap on 6s to wound.
I'd be impressed if it was more than S4.
As it stands, it's a multi-shot anti-MEQ gun. And you have to be in charge range to one-shot a Marine.
For the points, a Noise Marine now compares with Heavy Intercessor with a Hellstorm Bolt Rifle. 30" Assault 3 S5 D1. With Deathwatch Specialisms, it can get 2++ to hit, 3+ to wound, D2 AP-3 against any selected battlefield role (and that can change during the battle.)
blaktoof wrote: Sonic weapons are much better than 8th when you see the new codex interactions with strats and what not.
Between EC trait, warp sight plea, and excruciating frequencies, plus the slaughter rules you can end up with sonic weapons that:
Get an extra hit on 6s to hit
You can get to 2+ to hit with reroll 1s
Ignore BS and hit mods
+1D within 12"
6s to wound do a MW Another strat gives additional ap on 6s to wound.
I'd be impressed if it was more than S4.
As it stands, it's a multi-shot anti-MEQ gun. And you have to be in charge range to one-shot a Marine.
For the points, a Noise Marine now compares with Heavy Intercessor with a Hellstorm Bolt Rifle. 30" Assault 3 S5 D1. With Deathwatch Specialisms, it can get 2++ to hit, 3+ to wound, D2 AP-3 against any selected battlefield role (and that can change during the battle.)
At least they're not auto-boltgun equivalents anymore.
blaktoof wrote: Sonic weapons are much better than 8th when you see the new codex interactions with strats and what not.
Between EC trait, warp sight plea, and excruciating frequencies, plus the slaughter rules you can end up with sonic weapons that:
Get an extra hit on 6s to hit
You can get to 2+ to hit with reroll 1s
Ignore BS and hit mods
+1D within 12"
6s to wound do a MW Another strat gives additional ap on 6s to wound.
loosing the re roll to wound and +1 to wound is rough, also into armour of contempt , we also dont know if endless cacophony is still in for the fire again. They might be better under low investment but dont think they will match the damage output that they used to have. I might end up benching mine as most of my regular opponents are death guard terminator blocks and paladin grey knight bricks so spamming them with 1 damage will be rough. Though the mortals will help, probably have better luck going chosen/terminators and popping cruel duellists and death hex.
I am leaning towards thinking endless might still be in the book considering the mortal wound buff explicitly caps off mortal wounds to just 6 in that phase. Could probably see it be limited to legion/core/infantry/slaanesh. One annoying thing I do see is some spells are annyoingly locked, like Delightful agonies being on [legion] slaanesh which if you cant mark vehicles or dreads might be annoying. I do want to see if there are also ways of having some characters like dark commune not use up a HQ slot, otherwise I can see chaos running into its old issue of people only taking the same 3 HQ every time.
I think ill probably drop my old sorcerer and just take 2x 5 legionaries with books to just sit backboard casting prescience and agonies on havocs. Relics being mid is a shame, can see uses for some but now that they will all cost 1 CP ill probably just skip relics all together and buy more warlord traits if those are good.
I think the thing that bothers me most, as others have stated, is just the sheer inconsistency of it.
Chaos Marines could be split into 3 sections.
The New, The Clunky, and The Old.
The New is straightforward - it's the new kits. Possessed, Cultists, the stuff they want to (and likely will) sell plenty of. Rules seem to be cohesive and decent. Easy to forego having lots of weird weapon options when everything has mutated limbs or basic autopistols and knives and such. Oblits getting their more straightforward weapon profiles and Venomcrawlers going to FA are good things that fit here too.
The Clunky - Here's where the rest of those 25-30ppm units ended up. The Chosen, Terminators, Raptors, Warp Talons. Legionaries fit here as well. Each entry has more bullet points than it needs to have, all for the sake of being able to build what's in the box. At this point, they might as well just clump all of the ranged weapons that aren't bolters into 'Warp-Infused Weapons' to match Accursed weapons. Make them range 24, rapid fire 2, str 5, ap -2, damage 2 and cost 15 points per upgrade. At least then you're not invalidating someone's group of Chosen or Terminators that they bought last year to fit with the Codex that they were desperately trying to keep playing until now.
The Old - Bikers, Rhinos, Vindicators, Predators, Land Raiders, all the stuff that GW hasn't yet updated and so somehow, for some ungodly reason, gets to keep its legacy rules, despite not matching the design philosophy of the above 2 sections. Why in the world do you have to pay points for the Vindicator Siege Shield? This is all stuff that just needs to be updated and just points at this codex being a hold-over. I can only pray that the new 30k vehicles will soon have a new Chaos sprue to bring them into the modern world of the 2000s. In the case of Bikers, you can't even make any of those options out of the box. There are no melee or special weapons or even icons in that box! It's just 3 dudes with combi-bolters. That's it.
They split the Codex up into these 3 sections, gave them to 3 different writers. The New guy had an easy time, the Old guy got to copy-paste all the old stuff, and the Clunky guy overthought everything with the 'YOU MUST OBEY THE CONTENTS OF THE BOX' as his motivational poster hanging above his desk.
I was part of the 'wait and see' group, but now that I've seen what these datasheets look like, I can confidently say that this is not it, fam. Legion traits don't matter. Actual effectiveness of the Codex in the meta doesn't matter. This codex will be un-fun for me to play because of how inconsistent one datasheet is to the next. That's the bottom line. When I have to change gameplay philosophies between using my Terminators to using my Havocs or Legionaries to using my Possessed, you've fethed up as a codex writer.
You look at Space Marines, at Admech, at Eldar, and theres a mix of good and bad in all of those codexes, but one thing they clearly have is CONSISTENCY, so that when you go from shooting with your Dragoons to your Vanguard, you're rolling with the same rules and there's no surprises. When you go from chopping things with your Chosen to chopping things with your Cultists to chopping things with your Legionaries to chopping things with your Possessed to chopping things with your Maulerfiend or whatever else, every single entry is jarringly different.
blaktoof wrote: Sonic weapons are much better than 8th when you see the new codex interactions with strats and what not.
Between EC trait, warp sight plea, and excruciating frequencies, plus the slaughter rules you can end up with sonic weapons that:
Get an extra hit on 6s to hit
You can get to 2+ to hit with reroll 1s
Ignore BS and hit mods
+1D within 12"
6s to wound do a MW Another strat gives additional ap on 6s to wound.
loosing the re roll to wound and +1 to wound is rough, also into armour of contempt , we also dont know if endless cacophony is still in for the fire again. They might be better under low investment but dont think they will match the damage output that they used to have. I might end up benching mine as most of my regular opponents are death guard terminator blocks and paladin grey knight bricks so spamming them with 1 damage will be rough. Though the mortals will help, probably have better luck going chosen/terminators and popping cruel duellists and death hex.
I am leaning towards thinking endless might still be in the book considering the mortal wound buff explicitly caps off mortal wounds to just 6 in that phase. Could probably see it be limited to legion/core/infantry/slaanesh. One annoying thing I do see is some spells are annyoingly locked, like Delightful agonies being on [legion] slaanesh which if you cant mark vehicles or dreads might be annoying. I do want to see if there are also ways of having some characters like dark commune not use up a HQ slot, otherwise I can see chaos running into its old issue of people only taking the same 3 HQ every time.
I think ill probably drop my old sorcerer and just take 2x 5 legionaries with books to just sit backboard casting prescience and agonies on havocs. Relics being mid is a shame, can see uses for some but now that they will all cost 1 CP ill probably just skip relics all together and buy more warlord traits if those are good.
Clockworkchris leaks have been dead accurate so far; and he said Endless Cacophony is gone. Only Legionaries have shoot twice or fight twice strat; and it 'll be 2CP at mnimum.
Excrusiating Frequencies say "no unit can suffer more than 6 MW"; but the strat effects a friendly unit so you could split fire into two seperate units and for a max of 12 MW total.
blaktoof wrote: Sonic weapons are much better than 8th when you see the new codex interactions with strats and what not.
Between EC trait, warp sight plea, and excruciating frequencies, plus the slaughter rules you can end up with sonic weapons that:
Get an extra hit on 6s to hit
You can get to 2+ to hit with reroll 1s
Ignore BS and hit mods
+1D within 12"
6s to wound do a MW Another strat gives additional ap on 6s to wound.
loosing the re roll to wound and +1 to wound is rough, also into armour of contempt , we also dont know if endless cacophony is still in for the fire again. They might be better under low investment but dont think they will match the damage output that they used to have. I might end up benching mine as most of my regular opponents are death guard terminator blocks and paladin grey knight bricks so spamming them with 1 damage will be rough. Though the mortals will help, probably have better luck going chosen/terminators and popping cruel duellists and death hex.
I am leaning towards thinking endless might still be in the book considering the mortal wound buff explicitly caps off mortal wounds to just 6 in that phase. Could probably see it be limited to legion/core/infantry/slaanesh. One annoying thing I do see is some spells are annyoingly locked, like Delightful agonies being on [legion] slaanesh which if you cant mark vehicles or dreads might be annoying. I do want to see if there are also ways of having some characters like dark commune not use up a HQ slot, otherwise I can see chaos running into its old issue of people only taking the same 3 HQ every time.
I think ill probably drop my old sorcerer and just take 2x 5 legionaries with books to just sit backboard casting prescience and agonies on havocs. Relics being mid is a shame, can see uses for some but now that they will all cost 1 CP ill probably just skip relics all together and buy more warlord traits if those are good.
Clockworkchris leaks have been dead accurate so far; and he said Endless Cacophony is gone. Only Legionaries have shoot twice or fight twice strat; and it 'll be 2CP at mnimum.
Excrusiating Frequencies say "no unit can suffer more than 6 MW"; but the strat effects a friendly unit so you could split fire into two seperate units and for a max of 12 MW total.
You'd need...
6 sixes to-wound
36 hits
37.03 shots at 2+ RR1s to do the max of 6.
Considering they're capped at 10 now, if I remember correctly, I don't think split-firing would help. You're unlikely to max the Mortal Wounds even with a full squad not splitting fire.
I think the thing that bothers me most, as others have stated, is just the sheer inconsistency of it.
Chaos Marines could be split into 3 sections.
The New, The Clunky, and The Old.
The New is straightforward - it's the new kits. Possessed, Cultists, the stuff they want to (and likely will) sell plenty of. Rules seem to be cohesive and decent. Easy to forego having lots of weird weapon options when everything has mutated limbs or basic autopistols and knives and such. Oblits getting their more straightforward weapon profiles and Venomcrawlers going to FA are good things that fit here too.
The Clunky - Here's where the rest of those 25-30ppm units ended up. The Chosen, Terminators, Raptors, Warp Talons. Legionaries fit here as well. Each entry has more bullet points than it needs to have, all for the sake of being able to build what's in the box. At this point, they might as well just clump all of the ranged weapons that aren't bolters into 'Warp-Infused Weapons' to match Accursed weapons. Make them range 24, rapid fire 2, str 5, ap -2, damage 2 and cost 15 points per upgrade. At least then you're not invalidating someone's group of Chosen or Terminators that they bought last year to fit with the Codex that they were desperately trying to keep playing until now.
The Old - Bikers, Rhinos, Vindicators, Predators, Land Raiders, all the stuff that GW hasn't yet updated and so somehow, for some ungodly reason, gets to keep its legacy rules, despite not matching the design philosophy of the above 2 sections. Why in the world do you have to pay points for the Vindicator Siege Shield? This is all stuff that just needs to be updated and just points at this codex being a hold-over. I can only pray that the new 30k vehicles will soon have a new Chaos sprue to bring them into the modern world of the 2000s. In the case of Bikers, you can't even make any of those options out of the box. There are no melee or special weapons or even icons in that box! It's just 3 dudes with combi-bolters. That's it.
They split the Codex up into these 3 sections, gave them to 3 different writers. The New guy had an easy time, the Old guy got to copy-paste all the old stuff, and the Clunky guy overthought everything with the 'YOU MUST OBEY THE CONTENTS OF THE BOX' as his motivational poster hanging above his desk.
I was part of the 'wait and see' group, but now that I've seen what these datasheets look like, I can confidently say that this is not it, fam. Legion traits don't matter. Actual effectiveness of the Codex in the meta doesn't matter. This codex will be un-fun for me to play because of how inconsistent one datasheet is to the next. That's the bottom line. When I have to change gameplay philosophies between using my Terminators to using my Havocs or Legionaries to using my Possessed, you've fethed up as a codex writer.
You look at Space Marines, at Admech, at Eldar, and theres a mix of good and bad in all of those codexes, but one thing they clearly have is CONSISTENCY, so that when you go from shooting with your Dragoons to your Vanguard, you're rolling with the same rules and there's no surprises. When you go from chopping things with your Chosen to chopping things with your Cultists to chopping things with your Legionaries to chopping things with your Possessed to chopping things with your Maulerfiend or whatever else, every single entry is jarringly different.
That's not Chaos. That's just failure.
Don't forget the fact the Chosen don't even match what's in the box, given you can't give anyone Power Fists, despite the fact they come with one in the box
Anyone claiming these new changes are gonna make the game easier for new players has to have some kind of dementia. Some of this stuff is incomprehensible.
For example - the Terminator datasheet. Lightning Claws? Nope - accursed weapon. Well, at least you can build what's in the bo-NOPE! You can't mix accursed weapons and power fists (power fists are accursed weapons on other datasheets btw).
There's other weird changes too. Noise Marines can't take a second Blastmaster anymore - why? Raptors can't have lightning claws (I'm sure a GW defender can explain this is good because some WAAC player won a game using it and then killed their entire family). Other units are clearly not going to be legal in the future (ala, bikers).
Chosen are bizarre - what purpose do they offer compared to Terminators? Is that second Plasma Gun really gonna give them the edge? Are people still trying to claim that GW stripping the units options good?
So, now the Legends Sonic Helbrutes has two Blast masters with 6 shots at 48"/S8/AP-3/Dam 3/+1 damage within half range, and a Doom Siren with D6 shots at 12"/S5/AP-3/Dam 1/+1 damage within half range.
Six S8/AP-3/Dam 4 shot at 24" + three on average S5/AP-3/Dam 2 shots within 6" for 115 pts. In addition to whatever the fist or power scourge do now.
Also with the removal of the blast keyword you can now shoot those Blastmasters in melee., and ofcourse if your in melee you within half range so they're cranked to 11 for maximum damage.
blood reaper wrote: Anyone claiming these new changes are gonna make the game easier for new players has to have some kind of dementia. Some of this stuff is incomprehensible.
For example - the Terminator datasheet. Lightning Claws? Nope - accursed weapon. Well, at least you can build what's in the bo-NOPE! You can't mix accursed weapons and power fists (power fists are accursed weapons on other datasheets btw).
There's other weird changes too. Noise Marines can't take a second Blastmaster anymore - why? Raptors can't have lightning claws (I'm sure a GW defender can explain this is good because some WAAC player won a game using it and then killed their entire family). Other units are clearly not going to be legal in the future (ala, bikers).
Chosen are bizarre - what purpose do they offer compared to Terminators? Is that second Plasma Gun really gonna give them the edge? Are people still trying to claim that GW stripping the units options good?
Can we discuss Abaddon's weird "Strength equal to or at least double the Toughness" rule? So it only applies to EXACTLY S6 attacks or S12 and above? Why does it not work on S7/8/9/10/11 attacks? Am I drastically misreading it?
blood reaper wrote: Anyone claiming these new changes are gonna make the game easier for new players has to have some kind of dementia. Some of this stuff is incomprehensible.
For example - the Terminator datasheet. Lightning Claws? Nope - accursed weapon. Well, at least you can build what's in the bo-NOPE! You can't mix accursed weapons and power fists (power fists are accursed weapons on other datasheets btw).
There's other weird changes too. Noise Marines can't take a second Blastmaster anymore - why? Raptors can't have lightning claws (I'm sure a GW defender can explain this is good because some WAAC player won a game using it and then killed their entire family). Other units are clearly not going to be legal in the future (ala, bikers).
Chosen are bizarre - what purpose do they offer compared to Terminators? Is that second Plasma Gun really gonna give them the edge? Are people still trying to claim that GW stripping the units options good?
Can we discuss Abaddon's weird "Strength equal to or at least double the Toughness" rule? So it only applies to EXACTLY S6 attacks or S12 and above? Why does it not work on S7/8/9/10/11 attacks? Am I drastically misreading it?
blood reaper wrote: Chosen are bizarre - what purpose do they offer compared to Terminators? Is that second Plasma Gun really gonna give them the edge? Are people still trying to claim that GW stripping the units options good?
Clearly they don't intend for you to compare the two. You're just supposed to purchase the one that appeals to you more based on the box cover or the blurb you read on the webstore, assemble them however strikes your fancy (while closely following the printed instructions included in the box of course), then look up the corresponding rules in the codex so you can field them in your games!
blood reaper wrote: Chosen are bizarre - what purpose do they offer compared to Terminators? Is that second Plasma Gun really gonna give them the edge? Are people still trying to claim that GW stripping the units options good?
Clearly they don't intend for you to compare the two. You're just supposed to purchase the one that appeals to you more based on the box cover or the blurb you read on the webstore, assemble them however strikes your fancy (while closely following the printed instructions included in the box of course), then look up the corresponding rules in the codex so you can field them in your games!
Damn - sounds like GW are literally incapable of writing even vaguely decent rules and have no idea how to balance things, organise armies, or give purpose to units.
Remember how someone in the threat at one point suggested GW were going to improve Chosen by taking all their options away?
It is impressive how bad a job GW did with this codex.
blood reaper wrote: Anyone claiming these new changes are gonna make the game easier for new players has to have some kind of dementia. Some of this stuff is incomprehensible.
For example - the Terminator datasheet. Lightning Claws? Nope - accursed weapon. Well, at least you can build what's in the bo-NOPE! You can't mix accursed weapons and power fists (power fists are accursed weapons on other datasheets btw).
There's other weird changes too. Noise Marines can't take a second Blastmaster anymore - why? Raptors can't have lightning claws (I'm sure a GW defender can explain this is good because some WAAC player won a game using it and then killed their entire family). Other units are clearly not going to be legal in the future (ala, bikers).
Chosen are bizarre - what purpose do they offer compared to Terminators? Is that second Plasma Gun really gonna give them the edge? Are people still trying to claim that GW stripping the units options good?
Can we discuss Abaddon's weird "Strength equal to or at least double the Toughness" rule? So it only applies to EXACTLY S6 attacks or S12 and above? Why does it not work on S7/8/9/10/11 attacks? Am I drastically misreading it?
blood reaper wrote: Chosen are bizarre - what purpose do they offer compared to Terminators? Is that second Plasma Gun really gonna give them the edge? Are people still trying to claim that GW stripping the units options good?
Clearly they don't intend for you to compare the two. You're just supposed to purchase the one that appeals to you more based on the box cover or the blurb you read on the webstore, assemble them however strikes your fancy (while closely following the printed instructions included in the box of course), then look up the corresponding rules in the codex so you can field them in your games!
I’m going to get the codex because I want the crusade material, and that my Iron Warriors are really bog standard chaos…. A couple vindicators, daemon engines, oblits, marines, cultists etc. nothing fancy.
I just can’t believe that this is the end result of waiting for 2 years. Luckily I am limited to just the codex, will not need any more actual models to do what I want to do.
GW gave us a giant pile of dog feces. However, they were close to getting some things right.
I actually would have liked the idea of accursed weapons as a generic chaos warped close combat weapon. However, making tons of obvious weapons be accursed screwed the pooch. Lightning claws, power fists, etc should still be an option. This is terribly bad with claws on havoc champs and power fists for chosen. Fix that issue and 90% of the bitching about this book would go away.
bullyboy wrote: I’m going to get the codex because I want the crusade material, and that my Iron Warriors are really bog standard chaos…. A couple vindicators, daemon engines, oblits, marines, cultists etc. nothing fancy.
I just can’t believe that this is the end result of waiting for 2 years. Luckily I am limited to just the codex, will not need any more actual models to do what I want to do.
Then......don't buy it. You're encouraging their behavior.
EviscerationPlague wrote: My guess is they meant it as "strength equal to or up to at least double", but with GW who fething knows.
The rule says basically: cannot be wounded at 4+ or 2+.
S=T wounds on 5+
S>=2xT wounds on 3+
Which is quite a solid buff for Legionaries as with T4 you get the most benefit against S8+ and S4 weapons like boltguns. T5 Units also benefit from this against the lots of S5 weapons we have currently around. One might argue that the Tzeentch buff is better overall thou.
I see some potential here and there for the book, yet I am afraid GW will invalidate it within mere days
As ya'll have noted, the new dex is quite crappy. I've been playing Chaos Marines for 20 years now. So phoned in CSM codexes are nothing new.
CSM/Legionaires as a Troop Choice
Since I'm a glutton for punishment I like to bring 2 to 3 squads of 10 CSM (yes they are currently quite bad). I'm curious whether "Legionaires" will now be at least decent. In particular it looks like heavy chainaxes, powerfists, Mark of Khorne, and Icon of Khorne will change them from a bad unit to a mediocre unit.
Win Rate
My CSM won 17% of my games back in 8th Edition. My CSM have won 26% of their games in 9th edition. I'm a casual World Eaters/Night Lords player in a competitive meta. I wonder how the new Codex will affect my win rate?
ArcaneHorror wrote: I know I'm late, but I just now noticed that Possessed don't have core. Now that is something that bums me out, and just doesn't make sense.
No, it doesn't. And it begs the question: has anyone seen the rules for what can have Marks yet? Because the playtest rules said that only CORE can have Marks. But Possessed can have Icons. So are Possessed stuck with the Icon of Chaos Undivided, since they can't have the Mark of Nurgle, Khorne, Slaanesh, or Tzeentch?
ArcaneHorror wrote: I know I'm late, but I just now noticed that Possessed don't have core. Now that is something that bums me out, and just doesn't make sense.
No, it doesn't. And it begs the question: has anyone seen the rules for what can have Marks yet? Because the playtest rules said that only CORE can have Marks. But Possessed can have Icons. So are Possessed stuck with the Icon of Chaos Undivided, since they can't have the Mark of Nurgle, Khorne, Slaanesh, or Tzeentch?
Now that would just make this all the stupider.
I thought it was Core and Daemonkin could have marks.
I'll buy the possessed regardless because they're amazing rules, but I don't see myself getting a single game of 40k in with this faction until the next codex, and who knows when that'll be.
Been praying for a decent shake for Chaos Marines ever since 5th edition and it just isn't happening, yet I keep hoping, for I have nothing if I don't have hope at least.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I know I'm late, but I just now noticed that Possessed don't have core. Now that is something that bums me out, and just doesn't make sense.
No, it doesn't. And it begs the question: has anyone seen the rules for what can have Marks yet? Because the playtest rules said that only CORE can have Marks. But Possessed can have Icons. So are Possessed stuck with the Icon of Chaos Undivided, since they can't have the Mark of Nurgle, Khorne, Slaanesh, or Tzeentch?
Now that would just make this all the stupider.
I thought it was Core and Daemonkin could have marks.
I'll buy the possessed regardless because they're amazing rules, but I don't see myself getting a single game of 40k in with this faction until the next codex, and who knows when that'll be.
Been praying for a decent shake for Chaos Marines ever since 5th edition and it just isn't happening, yet I keep hoping, for I have nothing if I don't have hope at least.
What I noticed is that characters and core have a keyword called Chaos Undivided, whilst Daemonkin, Daemon Engines and Vehicles don't have that keyword. So I think those units with it start undivided if that actually provides anything and then they are allowed to pay 15pts to upgrade to a God mark instead. If you don't have the Chaos Undivided keyword then you can't have a mark.
Thats what it looks like to me, otherwise what's the purpose of it except maybe strat interaction.
I'm just pleased that I picked up thousand sons at Xmas time after going to two events and not winning a single game with my iron warriors. They have sat on the shelf since then thinking about what they've done. I think there are some interesting things in the leaked rules however it's not all bad.
The psychic powers and prayers to the dark god's look really solid, the one which lets a unit only be hit on 4s is really good. We haven't seen all the warlord traits or relics yet either so I'm sure there's some play in the book. I personally think that a horde of legionaries could be quite interesting due to their low points value and the myriad of buffs they can be given.
Well, it seems like I'll be buying those accursed Cultists and new Possessed at some point because I'm a sucker for mutated units to use with my DG, but GW apparently really wants us to move to Grimdark Future/ One Page rules. How they handle unit options in the Codizes really broke the game more than formations ever could for narrative players.
I just noticed something really GW level dumb. Noise Marines still can use Power Axes, Swords and, Mauls. So now you can point to your Terminators and go "These axes, swords and mauls are all the same weapon and have the same weapon profile." And then point to your Noise Marines and say, "Theses axes, swords and, mauls are all different weapons and each has their own weapon profile."
Talk about making it easier on a begining player.
Addendum, Also Terminator Lords can now take Chain Fists for no cost.
While I agree that having identical physical thing represent different rules depending on who uses them is making the game needless complicated but imo is the least of trouble. Loosing unit options or invalidating units is the bigger problem.
They not even bothered to make the rules as to allow replacement, e.g dual lighting claws -> dual accursed weapon. It would be different then before but at least you could use the models still. Same for the combi wepaons in Termi squads. It would be lame but at least you wouldn't have to spent money to use your models again. And that money will not go to GW from me but anyone else that can give me combiBolter Arms for Termis.
I've been thinking about it and I almost wish they'd gone the Primaris route with Chaos. At least when Space Marines got Primaris models that were all kitlocked nonsense, they left the firstborn units as they were. True, they made the rules suck, but they didn't invalidate units or armies.
For Chaos they just decided to feth over everyone who'd ever converted a model instead.
Speaking of options (or the lack thereof), am I the only one who's noticed that absolutely nothing has a price for lightning claws in the points list? We know that Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour can take them because they were on the instruction sheet, but apparently every melee weapon is just "free" for them. So, are they "free" for regular Chaos Lords, Aspiring Champions, etc? Or have they completely removed lightning claws from every CSM unit besides Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour, Warp Talons, and (ugh) Harkon?
Gadzilla666 wrote: Speaking of options (or the lack thereof), am I the only one who's noticed that absolutely nothing has a price for lightning claws in the points list? We know that Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour can take them because they were on the instruction sheet, but apparently every melee weapon is just "free" for them. So, are they "free" for regular Chaos Lords, Aspiring Champions, etc? Or have they completely removed lightning claws from every CSM unit besides Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour, Warp Talons, and (ugh) Harkon?
My money is on the latter.
They aren't listed as the units that can take them (just the Terminator Lord) are free. Anything that isn't listed on a pts page for a unit, that they have as an option on their datasheet is never listed if they don't have a cost.
Damn - sounds like GW are literally incapable of writing even vaguely decent rules and have no idea how to balance things, organise armies, or give purpose to units.
This is exactly the reason why, even if I do like a lot of their models, like the Contemptor, Spartan or Leviathan, I've given up hope of ever playing the games again. 40k especially seems to be in a really volatile place, where massive changes to the Command Point rules, wild points value swings, and poorly-conceived band-aid fixes like Armour of Contempt are delivered in annual or semiannual balance patches, like this was Overwatch or something, and not a wargame where committing to, building, and painting an army list can take from weeks to months to years. I think it's absolute madness and it staggers me that not everyone agrees with that assessment. I get that the game can be fun regardless of the lunacy involved, but that doesn't make it any more sane.
Damn - sounds like GW are literally incapable of writing even vaguely decent rules and have no idea how to balance things, organise armies, or give purpose to units.
This is exactly the reason why, even if I do like a lot of their models, like the Contemptor, Spartan or Leviathan, I've given up hope of ever playing the games again. 40k especially seems to be in a really volatile place, where massive changes to the Command Point rules, wild points value swings, and poorly-conceived band-aid fixes like Armour of Contempt are delivered in annual or semiannual balance patches, like this was Overwatch or something, and not a wargame where committing to, building, and painting an army list can take from weeks to months to years. I think it's absolute madness and it staggers me that not everyone agrees with that assessment. I get that the game can be fun regardless of the lunacy involved, but that doesn't make it any more sane.
On top of that, they have the gall to charge you money for it, and the books are as much as a set of models. Which themselves aren't exactly cheap. Combined with the high turnover rate of rules, it doesn't seem feasible to continue supporting.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Speaking of options (or the lack thereof), am I the only one who's noticed that absolutely nothing has a price for lightning claws in the points list? We know that Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour can take them because they were on the instruction sheet, but apparently every melee weapon is just "free" for them. So, are they "free" for regular Chaos Lords, Aspiring Champions, etc? Or have they completely removed lightning claws from every CSM unit besides Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour, Warp Talons, and (ugh) Harkon?
My money is on the latter.
They aren't listed as the units that can take them (just the Terminator Lord) are free. Anything that isn't listed on a pts page for a unit, that they have as an option on their datasheet is never listed if they don't have a cost.
Yessss......that's my point. Either they're "free" or they're non-existent. Removed. Gone.
And I seriously doubt that they're "free". A pair of them definitely wouldn't be. So why can a Chaos Lord, for which the "official" model is only supplied with a thunder hammer and plasma pistol, be armed with a power maul, power fist, power axe, power sword, or a "tainted" chainaxe, but not lightning claws? And if they can have all of those things not provided in the "official" kit, then why no jump pack?
These rules do not stop kitbashing. They stop specific kitbashing. They're completely arbitrary. And completely idiotic. There appears to be no hard rules for what is or isn't allowed from unit to unit. There's no pattern. It's just whatever the writers were in the mood to allow when writing each datasheet.
On top of that, they have the gall to charge you money for it, and the books are as much as a set of models. Which themselves aren't exactly cheap.
Combined with the high turnover rate of rules, it doesn't seem feasible to continue supporting.
Indeed. And there isn't any way of knowing if the army I start building today is at all playable in the same way by the time I'm finished. It's not like MTG where creating your deck is usually a matter of some hours or days (if you have the cards) or weeks (if you need to buy them from somewhere). Making a 40k army takes a long time, and every unit that gets invalidated, especially if it's for stupid-ass reasons like ork warbosses no longer being allowed power claws, that's a lot of wasted time (since after all, you're always going to have an easier time finding opponents using the latest "standard" rules instead of accommodating Legends entries or homebrew, no matter how stupid the latest standard is).
Damn - sounds like GW are literally incapable of writing even vaguely decent rules and have no idea how to balance things, organise armies, or give purpose to units.
This is exactly the reason why, even if I do like a lot of their models, like the Contemptor, Spartan or Leviathan, I've given up hope of ever playing the games again. 40k especially seems to be in a really volatile place, where massive changes to the Command Point rules, wild points value swings, and poorly-conceived band-aid fixes like Armour of Contempt are delivered in annual or semiannual balance patches, like this was Overwatch or something, and not a wargame where committing to, building, and painting an army list can take from weeks to months to years. I think it's absolute madness and it staggers me that not everyone agrees with that assessment. I get that the game can be fun regardless of the lunacy involved, but that doesn't make it any more sane.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Speaking of options (or the lack thereof), am I the only one who's noticed that absolutely nothing has a price for lightning claws in the points list? We know that Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour can take them because they were on the instruction sheet, but apparently every melee weapon is just "free" for them. So, are they "free" for regular Chaos Lords, Aspiring Champions, etc? Or have they completely removed lightning claws from every CSM unit besides Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour, Warp Talons, and (ugh) Harkon?
My money is on the latter.
They aren't listed as the units that can take them (just the Terminator Lord) are free. Anything that isn't listed on a pts page for a unit, that they have as an option on their datasheet is never listed if they don't have a cost.
I think his question is basically 'What's on the melee weapon list?' with the corollary of 'who, exactly, gets access to that list beyond Noise Marine and Legionary champions?'
Yes, free stuff isn't in the points list, but it doesn't indicate access.
Meanwhile my 30k books arrived, and even just a barebones cursory glance in the options list for a centurion (leutnant equvalent) yields an entry for 2 pages without even going into other upgrades.
Including but not limited to a bike, jetbike and the ever elusive jumppack.
NVM normal squads...
frankly its hard to believe that both rulesets are published and created by the same company.
Scottywan82 wrote: I've been thinking about it and I almost wish they'd gone the Primaris route with Chaos. At least when Space Marines got Primaris models that were all kitlocked nonsense, they left the firstborn units as they were. True, they made the rules suck, but they didn't invalidate units or armies.
For Chaos they just decided to feth over everyone who'd ever converted a model instead.
Not even converted. Multiple meltas or plasmaguns in a squad has been a normal thing for a long time. Now its absolutely and utterly forbidden.
Completely unrelated, but how are Grey Hunters and BT Crusader squads allowed to be equipped these days?
Scottywan82 wrote: I've been thinking about it and I almost wish they'd gone the Primaris route with Chaos. At least when Space Marines got Primaris models that were all kitlocked nonsense, they left the firstborn units as they were. True, they made the rules suck, but they didn't invalidate units or armies.
For Chaos they just decided to feth over everyone who'd ever converted a model instead.
Not even converted. Multiple meltas or plasmaguns in a squad has been a normal thing for a long time. Now its absolutely and utterly forbidden.
Completely unrelated, but how are Grey Hunters and BT Crusader squads allowed to be equipped these days?
It's even inconsistent in the same book, the limit doesn't look to apply to bikers.
Seems like something's up - to only have the codex + dice up for pre-order seems to indicate that they might be having some model production or distribution issues. Would go to explain a bit of the weirdness about the long delay between model previews and codex release. Don't think that it explains the weirdness with the rules themselves, but it feels like there's something that went sideways during this process.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Why does the Daemon Prince need to have a different save vs shooting and vs melee? What purposes does that actually serve beyond adding more rules bloat?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Why does the Daemon Prince need to have a different save vs shooting and vs melee? What purposes does that actually serve beyond adding more rules bloat?
Okay, this rule is actually reasonable.
Daemons are creatures of emotions-the visceral and up close emotions of melee are better at banishing them than less passionate shooting. It's certainly not impossible to banish with a gun. But it's easier to do it in melee.
This rule makes sense, from an in-universe perspective, and isn't really hard to remember or requiring of niggly details or anything.
Remnant of the Maraviglia: once per battle +1 attacks for models within 6" for 1 turn. Its used to allow re-roll all failed wounds range and melee. SKIP
Endless Grin: 6+++ save and if slain on 3+ on D6 you return with D3 wounds. It used to force -1 LD within 6", so it better? SKIP
Distortion: 2X strength profile, and a strength user profile but each hit counts at 2 hits. Its clipped off so we don't know the AP or damage for the profiles. MAYBE
Raiment Revulsive: friendly units within 6" can shoot and still perform an action, enemy units within 6" cannot start and action. Oof...it used to allow full re-rolls to hit, wound, and charge. TRASH
Armor of Abhorrence: 3" aura enemy units [except Titanic units] within cannot fallback on a 4+ D6 roll. It was the bearer could not be overwatched and 1 additional enemy model was forced to flee. GOOD
Fatal Sonancy: at the end on the movement phase select 1 enemy unit within 12" roll 6D6 for each 4+ they suffer 1 MW. Quite the glow up from Assault D6/S6/AP-2/Dam1, averaging 3 MW each turn. GOOD
SLAANESH RELIC:
Intoxicating Elixir: once per battle in the fight phase; +D3 attacks and you can't loose more than 3 wounds. It was +1S and +1 attack to your stat line, for +5 attacks of the game with better wounding. SKIP
I disagree with you on the Raiment. An aura that lets you action and shoot can be pretty decent.
Expecting stuff to have full wound rerolls in 9th is nuts. That part of the game is gone outside supreme commanders.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Why does the Daemon Prince need to have a different save vs shooting and vs melee? What purposes does that actually serve beyond adding more rules bloat?
Okay, this rule is actually reasonable.
Daemons are creatures of emotions-the visceral and up close emotions of melee are better at banishing them than less passionate shooting. It's certainly not impossible to banish with a gun. But it's easier to do it in melee.
This rule makes sense, from an in-universe perspective, and isn't really hard to remember or requiring of niggly details or anything.
Maybe, but... it just feels unnecessary.
I don't see how being up close and personal, and therefore feeling the very emotions that serve to give the chaos gods their form and their power, would make a daemon prince any easier to kill.
How is it easier to banish beings formed from emotion in an environment of intense emotion than one more detached? Why is the slaaneshi daemon prince easier to kill as they writhe and dance around you, their very proximity filling your mind and senses with the alluring taste of pleasure, than putting a bullet in their head from 300 metres away?
I'm a Tzeentch guy so the 6+++ prayer and W3 Chosen on top of the first failed save = 0 damage. If we can still do two prayers then the transhitroll ability on top makes for some really tough models and I'm here for it.
I also like the Wanton rules overlapping on weapons so that Rapid Fire is benefitting most of the game.
Thariinye wrote: Seems like something's up - to only have the codex + dice up for pre-order seems to indicate that they might be having some model production or distribution issues. Would go to explain a bit of the weirdness about the long delay between model previews and codex release. Don't think that it explains the weirdness with the rules themselves, but it feels like there's something that went sideways during this process.
I agree, this is the golden goose week for selling the new stuff with the book generally and they're letting the ship sail. Not sure what they're so adamant on sabotaging themselves with this faction/release.
In honesty the codex coming out on its own (well, with the combat patrol) looks more like a panic release to cover themselves (content in CA & WD) rather than a planned and controlled roll out.
Scottywan82 wrote: I've been thinking about it and I almost wish they'd gone the Primaris route with Chaos. At least when Space Marines got Primaris models that were all kitlocked nonsense, they left the firstborn units as they were. True, they made the rules suck, but they didn't invalidate units or armies.
For Chaos they just decided to feth over everyone who'd ever converted a model instead.
Not even converted. Multiple meltas or plasmaguns in a squad has been a normal thing for a long time. Now its absolutely and utterly forbidden.
Completely unrelated, but how are Grey Hunters and BT Crusader squads allowed to be equipped these days?
It's even inconsistent in the same book, the limit doesn't look to apply to bikers.
Everything is inconsistent in this book. Why do Terminators get rules for their power fists, but Chosen don't? Why do Chaos Lords have options that require kitbashing/converting, but Exalted Champions get stuck with a single loadout? Why is it ok to kitbash/convert those Chaos Lord weapons, but not a jump pack? Why does a PA Chaos Lord have to pay for melee weapons, but Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour get them for "free"?
Nothing makes sense. There is absolutely no consistency, no plan, no design parameters. It's just arbitrary rules, over and over and over. This codex was designed by madmen.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Speaking of options (or the lack thereof), am I the only one who's noticed that absolutely nothing has a price for lightning claws in the points list? We know that Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour can take them because they were on the instruction sheet, but apparently every melee weapon is just "free" for them. So, are they "free" for regular Chaos Lords, Aspiring Champions, etc? Or have they completely removed lightning claws from every CSM unit besides Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour, Warp Talons, and (ugh) Harkon?
My money is on the latter.
They aren't listed as the units that can take them (just the Terminator Lord) are free. Anything that isn't listed on a pts page for a unit, that they have as an option on their datasheet is never listed if they don't have a cost.
I think his question is basically 'What's on the melee weapon list?' with the corollary of 'who, exactly, gets access to that list beyond Noise Marine and Legionary champions?'
Yes, free stuff isn't in the points list, but it doesn't indicate access.
I just need a summary of the Red Corsair stuff besides the Strats (which we've seen 4 of). That determines if my dude keels getting used as a BT Chapter Master with Breath Of The Throne or has a slightly new lease on life doing new stuff.
Also does it seem Cypher can be thrown in any Chaos army without breaking requirements for Wanton?
1: Has anyone seen the rules for Raptors? Do they have the same idiotic "only 1 of each special weapon" rule as Legionaries?
2: And Harkon. Does he have some variation on the "Agent of Chaos" rule? Because if he doesn't, then only Black Legion can have a character with a jump pack. And if he does, then the only way for any other Legion to get one, is to use a Black Legion character in their army. And either of those situations would be utterly disgusting.
cole1114 wrote: So what the heck happened to traitor guard being playable with CSM?
Who said that they would be?
Traitor guard is a whole army unto itself.
Warcom. In the article for the Killteam box in which the Traitor Guardsmen are one of the two teams, they specifically mentioned that the Traitor Guardsmen would "make a good addition to a CSM army".
cole1114 wrote: So what the heck happened to traitor guard being playable with CSM?
Who said that they would be?
Traitor guard is a whole army unto itself.
We don't know what traitor guard is just yet, unless there was a leaked page from the CSM book detailing it.
They made a big to do about the Blooded Kill-Team though. I fully expect there to be something letting you run them alongside of CSM...but it might be in the IG book rather than CSM.
cole1114 wrote: So what the heck happened to traitor guard being playable with CSM?
Who said that they would be?
Traitor guard is a whole army unto itself.
Warcom. In the article for the Killteam box in which the Traitor Guardsmen are one of the two teams, they specifically mentioned that the Traitor Guardsmen would "make a good addition to a CSM army".
Obviously, what you were supposed to take from that, was that the Traitor Guardsmen, using only some of the options in the kit, used in an allied Servants of the Abyss detachment, would make a good addition to a CSM army. Duh.
Well, apparently they promised a year of chaos. We just didn't know that meant the releases would be a fething mess.
What else could go wrong with this release?
WarCom wrote:We told you 2022 was going to be the year of Chaos – and unlike the forces of the Archenemy, we at Warhammer Community would never lead you astray.
cole1114 wrote: So what the heck happened to traitor guard being playable with CSM?
Who said that they would be?
Traitor guard is a whole army unto itself.
Warcom. In the article for the Killteam box in which the Traitor Guardsmen are one of the two teams, they specifically mentioned that the Traitor Guardsmen would "make a good addition to a CSM army".
Obviously, what you were supposed to take from that, was that the Traitor Guardsmen, using only some of the options in the kit, used in an allied Servants of the Abyss detachment, would make a good addition to a CSM army. Duh.
Venomcrawler. I do wonder what will happen with regard to the shadowspear stuff. The MOP is due an individual release but the other sprues are all mixed together and obsolete with the new combat patrol. The range is a bit messy at the moment. I do wonder if generic csm will be the bad guys for the 10th starter set next year so they can put out another wave to complete the range.
But they're SOOOO proud of the art on the cover that they're selling a print of it, despite you not being able to actually make a Chaos Lord like that.
I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed.
Really, really disappointed.
At least I got 30k to tide me over for the next 3 years.
Bikers. Seriously. The current kit only comes with Combi-Bolters, and we've already seen the box and assembly instructions for it. But the unit itself has loads of options in the points section. It's likely that the rules were written for the so far unseen (but featured in the so far incredibly accurate model leak) new Biker models, considering how gw writes rules for unit options in 9th edition codexes. It's possible that they're being held up by production issues. But they're coming. It's the only explanation for all of those options. Gw wouldn't allow them otherwise.
Bikers. Seriously. The current kit only comes with Combi-Bolters, and we've already seen the box and assembly instructions for it. But the unit itself has loads of options in the points section. It's likely that the rules were written for the so far unseen (but featured in the so far incredibly accurate model leak) new Biker models, considering how gw writes rules for unit options in 9th edition codexes. It's possible that they're being held up by production issues. But they're coming. It's the only explanation for all of those options. Gw wouldn't allow them otherwise.
Those biker options are the same they had in previous editions, going back all the way to even earlier editions of the game. They're not a hint of what they will have, they're more just a copy-paste of what they've had so far.
Ironic that in one datasheet they'll respect what people have built and collected and converted for 20 years, but in the next datasheet they crap all over that.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Everything is inconsistent in this book. Why do Terminators get rules for their power fists, but Chosen don't? Why do Chaos Lords have options that require kitbashing/converting, but Exalted Champions get stuck with a single loadout? Why is it ok to kitbash/convert those Chaos Lord weapons, but not a jump pack? Why does a PA Chaos Lord have to pay for melee weapons, but Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour get them for "free"?
Nothing makes sense. There is absolutely no consistency, no plan, no design parameters. It's just arbitrary rules, over and over and over. This codex was designed by madmen.
Scottywan82 wrote: I've been thinking about it and I almost wish they'd gone the Primaris route with Chaos. At least when Space Marines got Primaris models that were all kitlocked nonsense, they left the firstborn units as they were. True, they made the rules suck, but they didn't invalidate units or armies.
For Chaos they just decided to feth over everyone who'd ever converted a model instead.
Not even converted. Multiple meltas or plasmaguns in a squad has been a normal thing for a long time. Now its absolutely and utterly forbidden.
Completely unrelated, but how are Grey Hunters and BT Crusader squads allowed to be equipped these days?
It's even inconsistent in the same book, the limit doesn't look to apply to bikers.
Everything is inconsistent in this book. Why do Terminators get rules for their power fists, but Chosen don't? Why do Chaos Lords have options that require kitbashing/converting, but Exalted Champions get stuck with a single loadout? Why is it ok to kitbash/convert those Chaos Lord weapons, but not a jump pack? Why does a PA Chaos Lord have to pay for melee weapons, but Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour get them for "free"?
Nothing makes sense. There is absolutely no consistency, no plan, no design parameters. It's just arbitrary rules, over and over and over. This codex was designed by madmen.
Well, it is a Chaos codex. Madmen are to be expected
Bikers. Seriously. The current kit only comes with Combi-Bolters, and we've already seen the box and assembly instructions for it. But the unit itself has loads of options in the points section. It's likely that the rules were written for the so far unseen (but featured in the so far incredibly accurate model leak) new Biker models, considering how gw writes rules for unit options in 9th edition codexes. It's possible that they're being held up by production issues. But they're coming. It's the only explanation for all of those options. Gw wouldn't allow them otherwise.
Those biker options are the same they had in previous editions, going back all the way to even earlier editions of the game. They're not a hint of what they will have, they're more just a copy-paste of what they've had so far.
Ironic that in one datasheet they'll respect what people have built and collected and converted for 20 years, but in the next datasheet they crap all over that.
They haven't "respected" anything in this codex, including the bikers. They gave Bikers those options because they have models that have them somewhere in the pipeline. Look at this mess. Nothing is being respected. Nothing. Not Terminators, not Chosen. Not our characters. NOTHING!
Their manufacturing and/or distribution has been screwed up. That's the only reason that we haven't seen the models yet. If they had written those rules with the current models in mind, then they would have Combi-Bolters, and nothing more.
cole1114 wrote: So what the heck happened to traitor guard being playable with CSM?
Who said that they would be?
Traitor guard is a whole army unto itself.
Warcom. In the article for the Killteam box in which the Traitor Guardsmen are one of the two teams, they specifically mentioned that the Traitor Guardsmen would "make a good addition to a CSM army".
Obviously, what you were supposed to take from that, was that the Traitor Guardsmen, using only some of the options in the kit, used in an allied Servants of the Abyss detachment, would make a good addition to a CSM army. Duh.
No, you're supposed to obviously use them as shooty cultists, given GW doesn't give you those
Bikers. Seriously. The current kit only comes with Combi-Bolters, and we've already seen the box and assembly instructions for it. But the unit itself has loads of options in the points section. It's likely that the rules were written for the so far unseen (but featured in the so far incredibly accurate model leak) new Biker models, considering how gw writes rules for unit options in 9th edition codexes. It's possible that they're being held up by production issues. But they're coming. It's the only explanation for all of those options. Gw wouldn't allow them otherwise.
Those biker options are the same they had in previous editions, going back all the way to even earlier editions of the game. They're not a hint of what they will have, they're more just a copy-paste of what they've had so far.
Ironic that in one datasheet they'll respect what people have built and collected and converted for 20 years, but in the next datasheet they crap all over that.
They haven't "respected" anything in this codex, including the bikers. They gave Bikers those options because they have models that have them somewhere in the pipeline. Look at this mess. Nothing is being respected. Nothing. Not Terminators, not Chosen. Not our characters. NOTHING!
Their manufacturing and/or distribution has been screwed up. That's the only reason that we haven't seen the models yet. If they had written those rules with the current models in mind, then they would have Combi-Bolters, and nothing more.
Agreed. There is no way those options would be in the book if the New Bikers were not coming. Add on that the super leak had new bikes and it's clear there is something holding these back from release at this time.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Everything is inconsistent in this book. Why do Terminators get rules for their power fists, but Chosen don't? Why do Chaos Lords have options that require kitbashing/converting, but Exalted Champions get stuck with a single loadout? Why is it ok to kitbash/convert those Chaos Lord weapons, but not a jump pack? Why does a PA Chaos Lord have to pay for melee weapons, but Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour get them for "free"?
Nothing makes sense. There is absolutely no consistency, no plan, no design parameters. It's just arbitrary rules, over and over and over. This codex was designed by madmen.
Well then I guess we hit peak "chaos" then.
I'd rather they nail a theme and make it make sense though.
Their manufacturing and/or distribution has been screwed up. That's the only reason that we haven't seen the models yet. If they had written those rules with the current models in mind, then they would have Combi-Bolters, and nothing more.
The models aren't in the codex, so I doubt that's the reason why. I mean this is the same company who didn't give us the updated Daemon Prince rules because it won't be out until later this year.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I wonder if the Death Guard and Thousand Sons will be getting Let The Galaxy Burn, as the World Eaters seem to be getting it.
You don't really want warpflamers getting more hits, do you?
I mean, I do, but I'm biased.
I rather prefer to not play the flavor of the month.
I've avoided flamers in CSM so much in the past I'm having a hard time thinking of how to pack them in for fun. Honestly the +2 must be because they don't benefit from any explosions so this was the way to not make them totally worthless in context.
Their manufacturing and/or distribution has been screwed up. That's the only reason that we haven't seen the models yet. If they had written those rules with the current models in mind, then they would have Combi-Bolters, and nothing more.
The models aren't in the codex, so I doubt that's the reason why. I mean this is the same company who didn't give us the updated Daemon Prince rules because it won't be out until later this year.
No, they didn't give us the updated Daemon Prince rules because the rules writers most likely hadn't seen the new model yet. Remember, first come the models then the rules. The Bikers were part of the very accurate model leak. The new Daemon Prince wasn't. That means that the rules writers had a greater opportunity to actually see the Bikers, as those models were done further back. This especially makes sense if this codex was in the bag a long time ago. Which is how it looks, IMO.
As for your other statement, H.B.M.C covered that:
I'd rather they nail a theme and make it make sense though.
Poor/inconsistent writing =/= Chaos.
You want to say Chaos = random? I'd disagree, but you can try to make that argument. But Chaos = weird, inconsistent, directionless rules writing? No. This mess doesn't even cover "random". It's just a dumpster fire. It looks like they couldn't make up their minds what they wanted to do from unit to unit. No one could possibly think all of this aimless, directionless rules writing could = fun. Maybe if they had picked a lane and stuck with it, but they didn't. It's like everything was written in fits and spurts, with multiple changes in design philosophy along the way, but never going back to apply the new philosophy to the stuff that was done with the previous one.
Quick question- I see under Legionaires that they can take some kind on tome to make the unit Psychic but I don't see any point cost for the tome. So is the tome a free upgrade or am I missing something?
That's what I suspected. But, we obviously can't expect the same rules consideration as Eldar for CSM. Much less for the "Scary" Legion. Not from the current 40k rules team. 30k, though, that's a different story. Those guys get the Legions, including the 8th.
Imagine if they had written this book. If only.....
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Leo_the_Rat wrote: Quick question- I see under Legionaires that they can take some kind on tome to make the unit Psychic but I don't see any point cost for the tome. So is the tome a free upgrade or am I missing something?
It's +20 points for the squad. Balefire Tome. First option, top of the list.
Rydria wrote: anyone else impressed that for the first time ever Lucius the eternal is actually a legitimate threat to things in melee now ?
I think this is the first time ever he can actually soundly beat kharn in a 1 v 1
What does he do?
He strikes at S5 D2, but most importantly he's got three rules:
1. He always strikes first
2. He can make a unit strike last (so basically with those two rules, you ain't getting a hit in)
3. He gets 3 extra attacks I think when fighting any unit with WS2-3+.
I'd rather they nail a theme and make it make sense though.
Poor/inconsistent writing =/= Chaos.
No, but Chaos in 40k is often defined by always being inconsistent and in flux.
Do you actually think that they were trying to represent that with this mess? That they were trying to show that Chaos was "inconsistent" and "in flux" by writing unit (A) with one design philosophy and unit (B) with another? Arming both Terminators and Chosen with Accursed Weapons, but Terminators can swap theirs for power fists and for Chosen a power fist is just another Accursed Weapon? That's what they were doing when they did that? Or were they just being "inconsistent" and "in flux" themselves, because they've been screwing around with this book for so long and changing their minds so much in the process that we've gotten a ridiculous hodge-podge of rules that are just a collection of various "moments" in gw's changing design philosophies over a stretched out timeframe?
Rydria wrote: anyone else impressed that for the first time ever Lucius the eternal is actually a legitimate threat to things in melee now ?
I think this is the first time ever he can actually soundly beat kharn in a 1 v 1
What does he do?
Now strength 5 instead of 4
Now has a 4+ invul instead of 5+
always strikes first + makes person he's fighting always strike last
5 attacks which goes to 8 if he fights someone with 3+ or better weapon skill
sword is ap3 2 damage (3 damage if fighting 3+ or better weapon skill opponent)
If he's killed opponent takes d3 mortal wounds on a successful ld test or d6 on a failed one)
Rydria wrote: anyone else impressed that for the first time ever Lucius the eternal is actually a legitimate threat to things in melee now ?
I think this is the first time ever he can actually soundly beat kharn in a 1 v 1
What does he do?
He strikes at S5 D2, but most importantly he's got three rules:
1. He always strikes first
2. He can make a unit strike last (so basically with those two rules, you ain't getting a hit in)
3. He gets 3 extra attacks I think when fighting any unit with WS2-3+.
You beat me too it rip, though you forgot to mention his sword doing D3 damage vs ws2/3 opponents which I feel is a big deal means he 2 shots allot of characters instead of 3 shots them
ArcaneHorror wrote: I know I'm late, but I just now noticed that Possessed don't have core. Now that is something that bums me out, and just doesn't make sense.
No, it doesn't. And it begs the question: has anyone seen the rules for what can have Marks yet? Because the playtest rules said that only CORE can have Marks. But Possessed can have Icons. So are Possessed stuck with the Icon of Chaos Undivided, since they can't have the Mark of Nurgle, Khorne, Slaanesh, or Tzeentch?
Now that would just make this all the stupider.
On top of that, making Word Bearers have to play with possessed being core would be like ork players having boyz not be core.
I'd rather they nail a theme and make it make sense though.
Poor/inconsistent writing =/= Chaos.
No, but Chaos in 40k is often defined by always being inconsistent and in flux.
Do you actually think that they were trying to represent that with this mess? That they were trying to show that Chaos was "inconsistent" and "in flux" by writing unit (A) with one design philosophy and unit (B) with another? Arming both Terminators and Chosen with Accursed Weapons, but Terminators can swap theirs for power fists and for Chosen a power fist is just another Accursed Weapon? That's what they were doing when they did that? Or were they just being "inconsistent" and "in flux" themselves, because they've been screwing around with this book for so long and changing their minds so much in the process that we've gotten a ridiculous hodge-podge of rules that are just a collection of various "moments" in gw's changing design philosophies over a stretched out timeframe?
No, I was taking the piss out of the studio because inconsistent and in flux is not good game design.
I saw it, but you quoted me saying inconsistent and then ignored that word to complain about me saying "in flux". To steal a D&D meme: you rolled a 1 on your reading check there.
Folks, can we please take it to DMs instead of cluttering this thread with your back and forth bickering.
Anyway,
It's looking to me that Comp-wise we are probably starting with Abbadon, a Dark apostle and a MoP. New Prayers are really, really good. Accursed weapons are not a bad statline either, AP -3 and 4 attacks each is pretty relevant once you get to the exploding 6's.
Unfortunately, this is end of the road for me and 40K Chaos Marines. This book looks DOA.
I've put my stuff up for sale in our local group and will likely start work on a second Legion for HH, a ruleset that actually lets me have fun with loadouts of wargear...
Yeah there were tons of Slaves to Darkness leaks. Super-sweet new Chosen, new Ogroid Thingamagigs, new DP and I think some new Knights? And then the other day our first look at the new new Chaos Warriors (as opposed to the new Chaos Warriors in the SC!) box.
As a result the 40k version of the Daemon Prince got shown off at the 5-day slow-mo preview.
I'm with Gad though, there's every chance the new Codex doesn't have an updated DP entry because the writers didn't even know the model was coming. GW's various business silos are counter-productive.
Rydria wrote: anyone else impressed that for the first time ever Lucius the eternal is actually a legitimate threat to things in melee now ?
I think this is the first time ever he can actually soundly beat kharn in a 1 v 1
Oh yeah! Lucius in a Dreadclaw dropping in with 9X Noise Marines and trigger Excruciating Frequencies, splitting fire into two units for the MW and to shutdown overwatch. Then charging in.
Unfortunately, this is end of the road for me and 40K Chaos Marines. This book looks DOA.
I've put my stuff up for sale in our local group and will likely start work on a second Legion for HH, a ruleset that actually lets me have fun with loadouts of wargear...
They also did new CSM legionaires dirty for those that bought into them in 8th because you could finally double up on Heavies...
needless to say 30 of my 61 new csm are now in ilegal squad combinations. NVM converted HQ's. 2 Chosen squads with all melta or flamer etc etc.
meanwhile the leutnant level HH sub commander for an average list has more equipment options than the whole CSM list combined with the recent decimation ontop of actual synergy and not just a mere reroll aura buffbot...
How 30k and 40k are produced by the same company is honestly beyond me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah there were tons of Slaves to Darkness leaks. Super-sweet new Chosen, new Ogroid Thingamagigs, new DP and I think some new Knights? And then the other day our first look at the new new Chaos Warriors (as opposed to the new Chaos Warriors in the SC!) box.
As a result the 40k version of the Daemon Prince got shown off at the 5-day slow-mo preview.
I'm with Gad though, there's every chance the new Codex doesn't have an updated DP entry because the writers didn't even know the model was coming. GW's various business silos are counter-productive.
Counter-productive is a nice word for internal divison and politicking with a lack of communication and coordination.
Not Online!!! wrote: How 30k and 40k are produced by the same company is honestly beyond me.
I'll go out on a limp here and say that the four guys who have been repeating the same mistakes for the last decade are as much of an issue as the company as a whole is.
Change those people and you have a good chance of fixing at least half of the problem.
Not Online!!! wrote: How 30k and 40k are produced by the same company is honestly beyond me.
I'll go out on a limp here and say that the four guys who have been repeating the same mistakes for the last decade are as much of an issue as the company as a whole is.
Change those people and you have a good chance of fixing at least half of the problem.
too late for me. personally. but i reckon you are right sadly... shame for 40k chaos...
the forces i like i can represent just fine in 30k and with the 30k ruleset.
My main army has actual support announced there and will get a full book later (which considering the absurd quality already present in the core for the legionrules i own and if i take that as a expectable quality level, then i will be more than content.)
and the core rules are actually worth their CHF.
NVM that orks etc shouldn't be difficult to port over aswell, which is good enough for me.
the only thing left out are my GSC and these i can run just as a daemoncult they are.
No no. Its looks good (fluffwise) that You can mix different creatures in one unit.
It would be great if they could be lead by Chaos Marine, but no.
Still 10 mutants to soakup wounds then 6 Torments with 3 wounds and T4.
Feels to weak to survive one round of bolter fire.
Maybe if they could go up to 20 mutants or have a source of 5++ (Noctilith Crown)
Xyxel wrote: No no. Its looks good (fluffwise) that You can mix different creatures in one unit.
that is not my issue with it, that is the one good thing about it.
It would be great if they could be lead by Chaos Marine, but no.
not everything needs a PA leader, especially not chaos mortals. That said since they are in the csm dex for reasons unknown, the option should be there.
Still 10 mutants to soakup wounds then 6 Torments with 3 wounds and T4.
Mutants have always been descibed as angry lower class repressed horde... 10 twisted guardsmen are 10 twisted guardsmen, not a horde.
Feels to weak to survive one round of bolter fire.
Maybe if they could go up to 20 mutants or have a source of 5++ (Noctilith Crown)
or 3-15 big ones, or 5-25 small ones. or both in a squad with options for torment leader, or small leader.
I've put my stuff up for sale in our local group and will likely start work on a second Legion for HH, a ruleset that actually lets me have fun with loadouts of wargear...
Yeah! That'll show them! Give GW money!
What do people not understand here? You give them nothing. It is the only language GW understand.
I've put my stuff up for sale in our local group and will likely start work on a second Legion for HH, a ruleset that actually lets me have fun with loadouts of wargear...
Yeah! That'll show them! Give GW money!
What do people not understand here? You give them nothing. It is the only language GW understand.
...I don't care about 40K and haven't for quite some time. This was the nail, which convinced me to bail!
HH on the other hand, in our area has a nice group of mature people playing almost daily. A better rules set, better looking marine models, and a lot more options for those folks who prefer narrative play.
I've put my stuff up for sale in our local group and will likely start work on a second Legion for HH, a ruleset that actually lets me have fun with loadouts of wargear...
Yeah! That'll show them! Give GW money!
What do people not understand here? You give them nothing. It is the only language GW understand.
you give them for things you find decent, aka the decent 30k ruleset, and cut them where they are not doing decent, like the new CSM codex. That is far more productive.
Unless of course, as you alluded too, want to salt the very earth GW stands upon in notthingham.. which , fair enough i guess. It would be a shame for the IP though.
A trifecta of redundant naming.
But at least he isn’t daemonkin.
or /s at the end of your posts when you do that. It would help cut down on pointless arguing.
