11151
Post by: Dashofpepper
Hey folks!
I've been experimenting with Grey Knights on Vassal. I've played against Mech IG, Mech BA, drop pod BA, two Dark Eldar opponents, and a Tyranid player. In each game except for my last, I've lost the roll to go first. Out of those 6 games, I seized once, against the Mech IG opponent. Five out of six opponents have conceded during turn 1 due to the sheer amount of firepower that I drop on the table - with one of them (The Drop Pod BA player) conceding on his own first turn. His choices were to drop out of 12" of Coteaz and not be in melta range with his furiosos and tactical squads, or to drop into range and hope I rolled poorly. On his first turn drop, he lost three drop pods, two dreadnoughts, and his honor guard to Coteaz' unit.
My 2k army:
Coteaz
Librarian with Shrouding, two servo-skulls + Other stuff
5 henchmen warbands in chimeras, 2x jokero apiece with 7 psykers in a chimera with heavy bolter and multi-laser
Vindicare Assassin
Venerable Psyifleman
3x Regular Psyfilemen
For this game, which I nabbed a picture of, my opponent was running wych cult DE. He made the mistake of not reserving. His army was basically my wych cult.
We rolled spearhead, capture and control.
I won the roll to go first, and deployed with Coteaz nearest his board edge in case he did reserve and tried moving in close. Two servo skulls went just outside his deployment area to reduce my scatters to 1D6.
He didn't win the seize.
I had one unit with +12" range. In the first turn I killed two ravagers, three venoms, 4/9 of the trueborn inside those venoms, 4/6 reaver jetbikes, 3 raiders, half of his beast unit, and a few wyches - leaving him with two raiders left (one being immobilized) and nothing else to hit me on turn one with - prompting the concession.
I've found that I typically pass my LD8 psychic check, especially on a turn 1 alpha-strike before any psychic hoods can move into range.
The army is truly ludicrous, and Coteaz is pure cheese. 
34456
Post by: ColdSadHungry
Gah! I couldn't find the module for WH40K on Vassal. Any clues as to where is can be found would be greatly appreciated (even cryptic ones if we aren't allowed to point to it's whereabouts on Dakka).
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Post by: Dashofpepper
ColdSadHungry wrote:Gah! I couldn't find the module for WH40K on Vassal. Any clues as to where is can be found would be greatly appreciated (even cryptic ones if we aren't allowed to point to it's whereabouts on Dakka).
Vassal40k.info; there's 1,000,001 notes about it on Dakka. =p
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Post by: ColdSadHungry
Heh, ty. I'm downloading something now. Hope it's the module and not a virus - I barely check that kind of thing these days (probably why my PC wheezes along too XD)
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Post by: veritechc
I use a more friendly list but I have had the same results as you have.
Inquisitor Coteaz
Vindicare Assassin
Troops:
Squad 1
3 Crusaders
3 Servitors with Plasma Canons
1 Jakaero
Chimera
195 points
Squad 2
2 Crusaders
4 Death Cult Assassinans
1 Razorback w/ Twin Linked Assault Cannon and Psybolt Ammo
175 points
Squad 3
4 Grey Knight Terminators, 3 with Halberds, 1 with Psycannon, Psybolt Ammo
1 Grey Knight Terminator Justicar
245 points
Squad 4
4 Grey Knight Terminators, 3 with Halberds, 1 with Psycannon,
1 Grey Knight Terminator Justicar.
Fast Attack
Stormraven, Twin Linked Multi Melta
205 Points
Stormraven, Twin Linked Multi Melta
205 Points
I have no where near the shooting you do but the Stormravens combined with the Serveritor squad and terminators firing first turn tends to demoralize my opponents. I had considered using the psykers and I love your idea of combining them with the Jokero. That give you a chance have the Psykers have a rending template, correct?
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Post by: Luke_Prowler
You heard it here first, people. Dash actually calling something cheese.
19754
Post by: puma713
I foresee Eldar, with their board-wide Runes, making a comeback. 
19370
Post by: daedalus
This is specifically the reason why I've been avoiding Coteaz. RoW would cripple this army pretty severely, but with the Jokearo/chimeras, it would still probably hold strong.
I CAN NOT believe that guy didn't reserve all those raiders.
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Post by: jacetms87
RoW? That is a metric ton of firepower.
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Post by: sieek
i have to agree, not reserving everything in this case is most stupid indeed.
sure it still is hard as hell, if not impossible to win against this list with dark eldar, but at least you got a fighting chance like that.
on a side note, this reminds me of the good old DE vs Mech IG dilemma.
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Post by: wyomingfox
GK...really Dash? What's next... SW?
31466
Post by: svendrex
Hey I have a few questions/comments
1) Did you play that the Jokaero Upgrades affected the Psyker's shooting attack? I am not sure if this works or not.
2) Why only 7 Psykers? That only gives you a S9 AP1 blast. Why not pay the extra 10 points for a S10 AP1 blast?
3) How were you playing the servo skulls? Could you place them within 6" of an enemy and not have them die until they moved on their first turn?
4) I would love to see a battle report against an eldar player. I think that the Vindicare will be a great asset to take out the Farseer and the Runes of Warding quickly.
I think that there is potential in a Psyker spam army. I like the addition of the Jokaero to the psyker units as they can now get an INV save to protect a little against Perils at least.
19754
Post by: puma713
svendrex wrote:
4) I would love to see a battle report against an eldar player. I think that the Vindicare will be a great asset to take out the Farseer and the Runes of Warding quickly.
I think it would be tough to snipe a farseer, imo. Personally, I run Eldrad with a unit with another IC, sometimes a Phoenix Lord, sometimes Yriel. All in a Wave Serpent. True, the army above has a lot of shots, but darting a Fortuned Wave Serpent here and there can be tough to take out, even with 16 Twin-linked Str. 8 Shots.
16 Twin linked shots should hit 14 times. 4's to glance, 5's to pen. 7 should get through, and out of those 7, 4.62 should pen. So, then SMF saves 1.19 of the glances and 2.31 of the pens. Then Fortune saves another .595 of the glances and 1.155 of the pens. So, if every Rifleman shot everything it had at that single Wave Serpent, they should glance 0.595 times and pen 1.155 times. Not too terrible.
The Vindicare isn't much of a worry because his Turbo-Penetrator and Rending count for squat against Wave Serpents and the Heavy Bolters and Multi-lasers will be even less effective than the Riflemen. The only true worry, I suppose, would be the Jokaero wielding Lascannons (they can choose lascannons can't they?).
I don't know, we'll have to see for sure. I am going to be brushing up some of my Eldar lists, though, to start bracing for the influx of FotM gamers.
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
Dashofpepper wrote:
For this game, which I nabbed a picture of, my opponent was running wych cult DE. He made the mistake of not reserving. His army was basically my wych cult.
A mistake is forgetting to cast Null Zone before the shooting phase. Not reserving against 24 Twin Linked Str. 8 shots when you're playing DE and going 2nd----is conceding .
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Post by: Dashofpepper
Alright...answers.
@Veritechc: Glad you found Vassal.
@Luke_Prowler: *laughing* It is completely ridiculous. And cheese. I won't ever put it on the table; I *much* prefer underdog armies. Necrons, old DE, Orks...when the new Necron dex comes out, I'll have to find the new worst codex to champion.
@puma713: Eldar and Board Wide Runes...only affect 5 weapons in the army. There are still 10 Lascannons, 4 twin-linked sets of +1STR Autocannons, and 5 Chimeras worth of Multi-lasers and Heavy Bolters - not to mention the Vindicare; whose role in a game like that would be to make sure that the Farseer and the runes get sniped out of their unit. 16 STR8 shots (rerolling) and 10 Lascannons ought to bring that transport down.
@daedalus: Not cripple, just reduce the alpha-strike. With DE as my main army...I was indeed surprised to see him deploy it all. He apparently didn't know about the psykers.
@sieek: Indeed; Mech IG are a tough matchup for DE - this kind of army is the same; potentially worse because of the psychic powers on the dreadnoughts.
@wyomingfox: Did you know that I actually have about 3,500 points worth of Space Wolves? 15 Missile Launcher Longfangs, 7 razorbacks, 6 rhinos, Njall, Canis, a bunch of grey hunters...I just haven't put any of it together.
@svendrex: I have been playing that Jokero powers affect the psykers; their powers extend to the unit. With two Jokero, I get +1 to each result; half the results are useless. I don't value a 5+ invul, rending is pointless...I can see Jokero going very well with other units though that could *use* rending. Only 7 psykers because I had originally misread the rule and created a list around it. During my first game someone pointed it out to me, but I haven't gotten around to fixing to make it STR10. Servo Skulls....well, they can't be placed in the enemy deployment zone, and I've actually never tried deploying one within 6" of an enemy. I generally deploy them based on where I think the enemy is going to move, to block their scout moves, or somewhere midfield at a range that won't let them get within 6" on the first turn. I also use them to protect flanks from infiltrators. If I'm going first, I'll generally stick it 6" from the enemy deployment zone so that I've got a 6" bubble going into the enemy deployment zone for my blasts. I care more about them for their ability to influence scouting and infiltrating than for their shooting impact though. Automatically Appended Next Post: AgeOfEgos wrote:Dashofpepper wrote:
For this game, which I nabbed a picture of, my opponent was running wych cult DE. He made the mistake of not reserving. His army was basically my wych cult.
A mistake is forgetting to cast Null Zone before the shooting phase. Not reserving against 24 Twin Linked Str. 8 shots when you're playing DE and going 2nd----is conceding .
My librarian doesn't have Null Zone, and DE have no Psykers....?
19754
Post by: puma713
Dashofpepper wrote:
@puma713: Eldar and Board Wide Runes...only affect 5 weapons in the army. There are still 10 Lascannons, 4 twin-linked sets of +1STR Autocannons, and 5 Chimeras worth of Multi-lasers and Heavy Bolters - not to mention the Vindicare; whose role in a game like that would be to make sure that the Farseer and the runes get sniped out of their unit. 16 STR8 shots (rerolling) and 10 Lascannons ought to bring that transport down.
See my post above. The lascannons would be my only true worry. And I wasn't thinking about just the weapons. It can shut down Shrouding, protecting your Dreadnoughts as well. It can also shut down Fortitude.
If the Eldar go first, taking out some of the dreadnoughts or stunning/shaking them will seriously cut down on the incoming firepower. Same thing for shaking/stunning the chimeras. Just shake/stun a chimera and you've stopped 2 lascannons. If the Eldar player can keep the army stunned/shaken (scatter lasers), then I think the GK list will have trouble recovering (can Chimeras even get Fortitude?).
And that's if the Eldar player only take 1 Farseer.
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Post by: wyomingfox
3500 pts of wolves...nope, that fact escaped me -- especially given your previous "Whisky" challenge. 
2764
Post by: AgeOfEgos
Dashofpepper wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AgeOfEgos wrote:Dashofpepper wrote:
For this game, which I nabbed a picture of, my opponent was running wych cult DE. He made the mistake of not reserving. His army was basically my wych cult.
A mistake is forgetting to cast Null Zone before the shooting phase. Not reserving against 24 Twin Linked Str. 8 shots when you're playing DE and going 2nd----is conceding .
My librarian doesn't have Null Zone, and DE have no Psykers....?
Hahaha, yeah I know GK can't take Null Zone and DE have no Psykers. I was stating, using a volume knob metaphor, forgetting to cast Null Zone might be considered about a 4.
Not reserving when you're going 2nd---when your army consists of DE armor---against 24 Str. 8 Twin Linked Shots---would be about a;
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Post by: svendrex
The rending is decent on the Jokaero Heavy Flamers if the enemy ever gets that close.
Obviously the psykers get the Armor and INV save upgrades.
The question was whether the Psyker shooting attack gets the upgrade. It is a "psykic shooting attack" where the Jokaero upgrades specify "Shooting Weapons". I do not think that Psykic Barrage gets extra range or rending (not that it really needs either of those).
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Post by: Roadkill Zombie
I've never read the Grey Knights Codex but don't all those Psycannons and Jokaero weapons only have a 24 inch range? I dunno really, I seem to remember someone mentioning it.
Anyway, the way I play Eldar is, rather than the Seer Council, I put my Farseer in a unit of Harlequins first turn and if I have to, borrow someone elses transport. It has saved my psykers many times from getting shot up. Farseers don't want to be in close combat anyway so keep them out of close combat, then keep them safe from shooting by using the Shadowseers Veil of Tears. Works against Grey Knights shooting too! 
31466
Post by: svendrex
Regular Grey knight infantry shooting maxes out at 24". Jokaero have regular lascannons (48" with a chance to get another 12")
@Dash
I just realized why you will do very well with this army. It capitalizes on the fact that you need to roll low numbers (LD 8 tests and Scatter). Finally an army that works with your natural talent for rolling below average.
15717
Post by: Backfire
Heh, brutal list. To me, it seems like most GK builds, it is a very hard counter against some lists and will get easily beaten by some others. It is weaker in close combat than IG. For example, I think Ork horde armies will just walk over this. Terminator-heavy armies will also beat it, I think.
752
Post by: Polonius
Interesting list.
I just happen to own a bunch of chimeras, and a box full of psykers and old Inq. henchmen. Might be fun to try out some day.
I'd agree that Jokero wouldn't boost a psychic shooting attack. They boost weapons, not shooting attacks.
195
Post by: Blackmoor
It just seems like a regular Mech Guard army but instead of Hydras you are using Dreds.
Just like Mech guard you will do ok if you get first turn, but if you don't you might be in trouble. For example, what would have happened in the DE game if you went second? That would have been far more interesting a read than showing that you can destroy a DE army that starts out in the open.
Also your army gets crippled by anti-psychic defenses.
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
Blackmoor wrote:It just seems like a regular Mech Guard army but instead of Hydras you are using Dreds.
Just like Mech guard you will do ok if you get first turn, but if you don't you might be in trouble. For example, what would have happened in the DE game if you went second? That would have been far more interesting a read than showing that you can destroy a DE army that starts out in the open.
Also your army gets crippled by anti-psychic defenses.
Yeah it's similar---but GK have two things over that;
Shrouding
Ignore Shaken/Stunned
AV 12 Dreads that ignore Shaken/Stunned and have 3+ cover saves are going to be annoying.
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Post by: crazypsyko666
I have a question for you, Dash. Are PAGK or TAGK in any form viable as a reasonably competitive list? I have a habit of getting lovestruck by an army with interesting fluff and cool rules (back in ye olde days of Daemonhunters) but I like to be able to do some serious damage with them at the same time. I love the Grey Knights, have for years, but it always seems to be an uphill battle. What would you recommend? I haven't seen too much of the current 'dex, but I know the basics (stats for the psycannons, psilencers, stormbolters, etc., how the new NFW work, general stats and special rules). Mind giving us (me) a rundown on it?
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Post by: yermom
The list shoots decently when the psykers don't go off. when they do go off its crazy. But honestly, if your opponents are conceeding turn 1 to this, you need to find better opponents. The list is far from unstoppable...
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Post by: Dashofpepper
crazysyko666: I have no serious intent to play GK, only to crush them on the field....so I'm not the guy to ask for GK advice from. There are 1,001 threads about GK, their different units, the competitiveness of the army, etc all around Dakka (Tactics, General Discussion, Army list). In fact, I can't click through a forum page without seeing another duplicative GK thread wanting to discuss what three others have already beaten into the ground because the OP was too lazy to READ before posting. This was just to goof off.
@Yermom: No...YERMOM! NO YERMOM! It isn't unstoppable, and does sit on a few lynchpin rolls in terms of how difficult the game is going to be. But then again...a lot of armies these days do.
@AgeofEgos: Ah...nothing for me to answer.
@Blackmoor: If I had gone second, I think I would have reserved. =p I've gone second (as I said at the top) in almost every game. Including against DE. Its tempting to deploy though with a rerollable seize.
@Polonius: Go get em'.
@Backfire: Ork horde armies....*laughing* You mean that you don't think five insta-kill AP1 large blast templates and 10 potentially rending heavy flamers....along with the ridiculous volume of fire present everywhere else is enough to take care of hordes? Speaking of terminators, did I mention multiple AP1 large blast templates? Five of them to be precise. Every turn. The STR9-10 kind.
@Roadkill Zombie: There's not a single psycannon in the army, but yes - they have a 24" range. Also, putting Harlequins into a transport doesn't make the transport unable to be shot at.
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Post by: crazypsyko666
In that case, know anyone with a good reputation who plays? I often find the tactics thread to be very hit-or-miss.
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Post by: mrblacksunshine_1978
Hey Dash, I been test playing the same army with Coteaz with 4 monkeys, 7 psykers each in a Chimera so a total of 5 and 3 Interpertors Squads with 7 guy is each squad. Its a cheesy list and way OP.
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Post by: Roadkill Zombie
I know that Dash, I was talking about after you kill the transport you most likely won't kill the Farseer because of the Harlequins having Veil of Tears. unless you get real close...which is not something most people want to do when it comes to Harlequins
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Post by: Blackmoor
As I said in another thread, expect to see a lot of board-wide psychic hoods in the future.
These gimmick builds work in the short term but don't last.
36940
Post by: Anvildude
mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:Hey Dash, I been test playing the same army with Coteaz with 4 monkeys, 7 psykers each in a Chimera so a total of 5 and 3 Interpertors Squads with 7 guy is each squad. Its a cheesy list and way OP.
I love how there are now people playing Warhammer 40,000, "Grimdarkness incarnate", who can, in all seriousness, talk about how many monkeys are in their army.
Sometimes I just love this game.
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Post by: mrblacksunshine_1978
Blackmoor wrote:As I said in another thread, expect to see a lot of board-wide psychic hoods in the future.
These gimmick builds work in the short term but don't last.
these bulids are not gimmicks, I test play against armies that has psychic hoods. The only army that has a board-wide affect is eldar and they are far and few in tourament play.
195
Post by: Blackmoor
mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:Blackmoor wrote:As I said in another thread, expect to see a lot of board-wide psychic hoods in the future.
These gimmick builds work in the short term but don't last.
these bulids are not gimmicks, I test play against armies that has psychic hoods. The only army that has a board-wide affect is eldar and they are far and few in tourament play.
To give you an example of how wrong you are, I present you with the allied inquisitor from the Witch Hunter codex. Every imperial army can take them, they are leadership 10, and will shut down leadership 8. As an added bonus they effect the whole board. Expect at least every Imperial Guard player to take them going forward.
Gimmick lists just spam a few good units. They work well against some armies, and poorly against others. They are not good take-all-comers lists and have a pronounced rock-paper-scissors match-ups.
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Post by: Dashofpepper
There's a reason there's a Vindicare Assassin in this list. Inquisitors die like everyone else.
37325
Post by: Adam LongWalker
these bulids are not gimmicks, I test play against armies that has psychic hoods. The only army that has a board-wide affect is eldar and they are far and few in tourament play.
My space Wolf Army build have 2 librarians. I use them wisely and they have done me well in game play.
Oh and Dash, thanks for showing people what I knew on using Cortoez. I have a Henchmen army that I've been playing more for the fluff of the previous codex than this one. Never the less, that is a brutal build that you cooked up.
35132
Post by: Smitty0305
looks like I need to read the GK codex!
34234
Post by: Prophet40k
I might be missing a few things here... like for one why did the BA player drop all those pods within 12" of Coteaz? was it canny placement of servo skulls? I just do not see what the BA player was thinking. I am reminded of an episode of the Simpsons where Homer is sittng on a couch tying to eat a chip. and every time he tries a puppu jumps up and snags it. then Homer repeats it while saying "Not this time"
And which unit do you attach Coteaz to? the Psykers? (I have not read any threads reguarding the psyker henchmen, but I would assume that they can stilll only use one psykic power a turn, Sorry if this is answered somewhere else.)
I am running a list bastardized from a Radical Inquisitor list from the DH codex. including Coteaz just so I can bring all my henchmen the list though built with "fluff/ storyline" in mind is doing very well.
15717
Post by: Backfire
mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:
these bulids are not gimmicks, I test play against armies that has psychic hoods. The only army that has a board-wide affect is eldar and they are far and few in tourament play.
Dark Angels, too. Automatically Appended Next Post: Dashofpepper wrote:
@Backfire: Ork horde armies....*laughing* You mean that you don't think five insta-kill AP1 large blast templates and 10 potentially rending heavy flamers....along with the ridiculous volume of fire present everywhere else is enough to take care of hordes? Speaking of terminators, did I mention multiple AP1 large blast templates? Five of them to be precise. Every turn. The STR9-10 kind.
Problem, as I see it, is when enemy has something which shoots back, your Chimeras start blowing up and you will start to lose your low- AP firepower quickly. Lootas, for example, outrange your S10 blasts and can destroy Chimeras easily. Outflanking can also be dangerous, like Deffkoptas. Terminator lists can kill your Chimeras with stuff like Cyclones. If you lose your low- AP blasts, you have limited ways to kill the Terminators. Most popular Terminator list (Deathwing) has also access to table-wide Psychic Hood. This list has no screening units, so anything which gets through can cause serious damage.
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Post by: lunarman
It's nasty, looks like I'll have to build it 
Roll on the next army!
19588
Post by: mrblacksunshine_1978
Backfire wrote:mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:
these bulids are not gimmicks, I test play against armies that has psychic hoods. The only army that has a board-wide affect is eldar and they are far and few in tourament play.
Dark Angels, too.
Yeah, your right, but i hardly see any Dark Angels Armies that much any more. Most tournament your going to see SW, BA and IG mostly. Plus that why, i bring 19 monkeys to hunt down any pskyer. Psyker Hood i have a chance in winning, but against SW, they have denied my Hammerhand about 75% of the time.
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Post by: pretre
Dashofpepper wrote:There's a reason there's a Vindicare Assassin in this list. Inquisitors die like everyone else.
3 Wounds and in a transport. Against this list, probably out of LOS of your army if possible.
(Like behind that big walled ruin on the far left in your vassal pic.)
Going to take some work to get him out, meanwhile your Psyfleman are stunable, your psykers can't shoot and your lib has a 50/50 on shrouding.
Granted Allied Inquisitors are probably not long for the world, but this is still a consideration. Eldar can do the same thing and as someone mentioned DA libs ( Ld 9, iirc).
Now if you had a shunt squad, that would make it a lot harder to hide them. Automatically Appended Next Post: Backfire wrote:Outflanking can also be dangerous, like Deffkoptas.
I was actually thinking that this list is vulnerable to alpha strike lists, but the Coteaz seize mitigates that. Storm scouts would be hilarious here. Zoom in, jump out, krak that line of transports and see how many Psykers die in the explosions.
Coteaz is a badass. The enhanced seize just makes him even better.
11610
Post by: Tzeentchling9
*Changes title to "Dashofpepper experiments with the IG Parking Lot using Psyker Battle Squads as troops"*
Fixed it for you.
8303
Post by: sexiest_hero
When I made a psyker spam list in a tactics thread. Everybody called the Idea stupid. Sweet vindicator-I mean vindication.
20774
Post by: pretre
But did you have pictures???
8303
Post by: sexiest_hero
No only stupid words.
:(
20774
Post by: pretre
Did you include plenty of hyperbole or are you an internet star? Those can help a lot, too.
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Post by: GoatboyBBMA
Jochearo don't effect the Psykers power - it only effects weapons - and the psychic power is not a weapon per say - it is a psychic power. So nothing that effects weapons will effect it.
Per the book it says all shooting weapons - if it said shooting attacks then it would effect it as the Psychic power is a shooting attack etc. So yeah - no need for monkies with the psykers as it won't increase their "mental" bomb.
But reread it - it all says weapons - not attacks so that is why it doesn't work.
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Post by: vonjankmon
To me how the kind of scary thing about this list is that it is not optimized. It's mean as hell and you could do a lot to both make it meaner and to fill it out a bit for a more tournament/mission focus.
I would hate to see this list after a good amount of play testing a tweaking.
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Post by: Dashofpepper
Alright...answers answers...
1. Let me REITERATE that I do not play GK. I said in my OP that I was dicking around with the GK codex, and thought this looked fun. It was the wrong number of psykers to be optimized, probably one dread too many, some shunting interceptors would be priceless, the master-crafted falchions on the Librarian are probably useless, etc.
Specific to folks:
Prophet40k: The BA player dropped the pods within 12" of Coteaz because the units inside all had melta-guns. His choice was to either deep-strike (or attempt to deep-strike) outside of 12", and NOT get to fire at me...and then take it in the face, or to deep-strike within 12" so he'd be in melta range, and hope for failed shooting from me so that he could deliver some of his own firepower before taking it in the face. To your other question: Every chimera has psykers and two jokero in it. Coteaz was attached to the brown unit. All the units are the same; I put the Librarian in the middle so that Shrouding hits everyone, and Coteaz's unit...wherever I think it is more advantageous.
Backfire: *laughing* That is all. Lootas need 5+ to hit, and 5+ to glance. They do *NOT* destroy Chimeras easily. Read my signature. Guess who plays Orks? To your other note about Deffkoptas....Deffkoptas are dangerous when they assault stationary AV10 rear armour vehicles. It isn't their BS2 rokkit that makes them dangerous, it is the buzzsaw. Servo-skulls deny the alpha-strike. You can't infiltrate by them, you can't scout by them....in fact, a GK player can line a 72" pitched battle deployment board edge with 5 servo-skulls - and deny ANYTHING from leaving your deployment zone. In my army here, I have two of them - plenty to stop scouting anywhere in my own vicinity, and Coteaz to deal with anything planning on coming in from reserve close enough to assault me. I'm not famliar with Army-wide psychic hoods, who has them, and I haven't run into them. Additionally, since I don't play GK, or have any plans to....I'm not too worried about it.
pretre: It isn't Coteaz that protects the list from the alpha-strike so much....its the Librarian *and* Coteaz as a combination the stop the alpha-strike.
@sexiest_hero: Once upon a time, I had some Ork ideas, and everyone called them stupid. So I went out and terrorized the nation with them. Then came back with "Oh look what I did with my stupid ideas!" Haters gonna hate. The internet is full of them. Dakka is no exception.
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Post by: Backfire
Dashofpepper wrote:
Backfire: *laughing* That is all. Lootas need 5+ to hit, and 5+ to glance. They do *NOT* destroy Chimeras easily. Read my signature. Guess who plays Orks? To your other note about Deffkoptas....Deffkoptas are dangerous when they assault stationary AV10 rear armour vehicles.
Ummm...but isn't that what the Chimeras ARE? And I was mentioning the possibility of outflanking, not scouting or Deep striking. As for Lootas, as I recall, you only had one small squad in your Ork list? A proper Loota spam has 30 to 45 Lootas. The prospects of AV12 vehicle surviving that aren't so great.
Sure, the list is mean, but I don't think it's quite so OP as to break the metagame or whatever. Plus, probably rather dull to collect, paint and play...
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Post by: Kirika
This is pretty nasty. Three weeks ago, I lost against Avariel from here on vassal and she was running something similar but with a cheap inquisitor with skulls instead of the librarian and the full 6 scoring units with 8 psykers per unit for strength 10 and a couple with plasma cannons. I was running my 2k IG and this list really puts out a lot of hurt with fortitude dreads taking out my vendettas and the sheer amount of firepower this list puts out. If you can outflank on the side coteaz isn't and get in some side shots on chimeras that can hurt this list but it wasn't enough as the fortitude dreads were still around and shooting. I really hate fortitude dreads hiding behind vehicles for cover. Also this list loses firepower when moving to objectives since you can't fire las cannons.
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Post by: Dashofpepper
Kirika wrote:This is pretty nasty. Three weeks ago, I lost against Avariel from here on vassal and she was running something similar but with a cheap inquisitor with skulls instead of the librarian and the full 6 scoring units with 8 psykers per unit for strength 10 and a couple with plasma cannons. I was running my 2k IG and this list really puts out a lot of hurt with fortitude dreads taking out my vendettas and the sheer amount of firepower this list puts out. If you can outflank on the side coteaz isn't and get in some side shots on chimeras that can hurt this list but it wasn't enough as the fortitude dreads were still around and shooting. I really hate fortitude dreads hiding behind vehicles for cover. Also this list loses firepower when moving to objectives since you can't fire las cannons.
100% agreed. Objective games suck with this army, Capture and Control even worse. They can sit in a corner and shoot all day long, but moving out is a serious loss of firepower.
There are a series of questions I ask every opponent before every game....one of them is "What do you have with the ability to outflank, deep-strike, or infiltrate?" When I run into outflanking units, I put the whole thing in a corner, 60" away from the other board edge. Obvious conclusions about outflanking and Coteaz can be made.
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Post by: Smitty0305
Can someone explain to me how this army works. I read a friends GK codex and dont see how cortez really helps.
as far as the 5 squads of henchmen I guess you can get 10 Lascannons, thats pretty cool.
As far as Psyifleman I couldnt find them in the codex so its probably a term for something else...
So how does this list work Im curious!
37720
Post by: Bruteboss
Smitty0305 wrote:Can someone explain to me how this army works. I read a friends GK codex and dont see how cortez really helps.
as far as the 5 squads of henchmen I guess you can get 10 Lascannons, thats pretty cool.
As far as Psyifleman I couldnt find them in the codex so its probably a term for something else...
So how does this list work Im curious!
Psyrifleman: GK dreadnought with 2 twin-link autocannons and psybolt ammo upgrades. The term is a derivative of "rifleman dreads" that all other SM armies commonly use. The psyrifleman is better because of +1 strength and the fortitude psychic power.
Henchmen as troops are good for a wide variety of reasons. As Dash has proven, they have incredible firepower if you want them to, being able to put out more high strength shots per unit than anything short of a super heavy tank, should you set them up for it. They can also be run as cheap mechvet IG style units with 3 special weapons in a chimera and nothing else. Or super close combat units that can probably beat most any other unit one on one in a fight. Or a mix of just about anything in between.
Dash's particular army is built around 100% shooting, with a decent mix of defensive power thrown in. Every unit is full of guns and psychic shooting powers that will obliterate anything they aim at, and that's multiplied by the number of squads.
The effect of the shooting is pretty similar to what you get from an IG gunline, except this army can do it with less units in a more tighly concentrated space.
The real difference of this army is in the HQs of Coteaz and the librarian. Coteaz is what allows you to run the henchmen as troops and pull this whole thing off, as well as protect from close range deep strike and outflank. He is too dangerous to approach with units coming out of reserve because he will probably wipe them out before they get to land on the board.
The librarian offers massive defensive boosts with shrouding, and sanctuary (I think he has that power at least). By packing his chimeras together, the librarian can spread stealth (+1 cover) to the entire army each turn, and defend against assaults with difficult/dangerous terrain on units that try it. His servo skulls pull double duty protecting against infiltrate and scout moves, as well as making all his blast weapons even more accurate.
In short, this is a complete package army built to win annihilation games and pretty much nothing else.
Now my question. Dash, I have been run a very similar set up for weeks now, minus the intense focus on henchmen. What you do as the other armies you play in order to fight this?
35132
Post by: Smitty0305
thanks for the explanation.
11151
Post by: Dashofpepper
Pray to go first....
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Dashofpepper wrote:
Prophet40k: The BA player dropped the pods within 12" of Coteaz because the units inside all had melta-guns. His choice was to either deep-strike (or attempt to deep-strike) outside of 12", and NOT get to fire at me...and then take it in the face, or to deep-strike within 12" so he'd be in melta range, and hope for failed shooting from me so that he could deliver some of his own firepower before taking it in the face.
Were 2 monkeys, 7 laspistols, and an eagle really that damaging to drop pod marines? Sure it's not trivial, but it's not really cause to concede on the first turn without some seriously bad luck.
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Post by: Bruteboss
There might be some controversy over the effect of "I've been expecting you" on psychic powers, but you can make an argument that it allows powers to be used more than once out of sequence. Given that interpretation, which I'm sure dash used, the BA player was being hit by 2 jokaero, d6 bolter shots and a strength 10 ap2 blast on every unit that got too close. Its the blast that really matters mind you, as I doubt much was able to survive it without cover.
Also, to whoever suggested outflanking deffkoptas against this list, you really will not get the chance if the unit with Coteaz in it is deployed correctly. Servo skulls mean no infiltrate or scouting, and coteaz means that any unit that outflanks too close to him is getting hit by a whole world of pain before they even get to react. Deffkoptas simply wouldn't survive the amount of firepower even a single unit can put out, flat out cover or no.
This army isn't fast and it sure as hell isn't going to take an objectives game, but you just aren't going to take them in a shooting match or by sneaky tricks (deep strike, infiltrate or outflanking). Nothing short of total anti-psychic defense and alpha strike assault is going to do the trick, as this list will still win the shooting phase, with or without shrouding.
Also Dash, if you play this list again, try joining Coteaz to the vindicator sometime. I did it once and the results were hilarious. DOA blood angels with no meltaguns or sergeants is a real laugh riot.
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Post by: Anvildude
Would Coteaz be able to defend against a Wierdboy doing his Tellyporta thing? I mean, if the rule's called "I've been expecting you", it sounds like it wouldn't do squat against an unplanned jaunt.
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Post by: Dashofpepper
Bruteboss wrote:
Also Dash, if you play this list again, try joining Coteaz to the vindicator sometime. I did it once and the results were hilarious. DOA blood angels with no meltaguns or sergeants is a real laugh riot.
Hrm...but they would have to arrive from reserve within 12" of Coteaz and the Vindicare for the assassin to get a shot. Seems like something simple to avoid? Automatically Appended Next Post: Anvildude wrote:Would Coteaz be able to defend against a Wierdboy doing his Tellyporta thing? I mean, if the rule's called "I've been expecting you", it sounds like it wouldn't do squat against an unplanned jaunt.
Actually, it would work. The weirdboy power says to place the unit anywhere on the table using the deep-striking rules.
Turning to the deep-striking rules...*ponders* It says that all deep-striking units arrive from reserves. I suppose that means that a teleporting weird boy unit is temporarily placed in reserves - since a mishap can put them back into reserves. And...you're required to follow *all* the rules for deep-striking.
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Post by: Anvildude
Gotta wonder exactly how he'd see that coming, huh?
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Post by: wuestenfux
mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:Blackmoor wrote:As I said in another thread, expect to see a lot of board-wide psychic hoods in the future.
These gimmick builds work in the short term but don't last.
these bulids are not gimmicks, I test play against armies that has psychic hoods. The only army that has a board-wide affect is eldar and they are far and few in tourament play.
Yeah, Eldar are not at top tables these days and can eventually be avoided...
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Post by: augustus5
Witchhunters have board-wide psychic hoods also, which means that IG also have access to board wide psychic hoods.
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Post by: Backfire
Bruteboss wrote:There might be some controversy over the effect of "I've been expecting you" on psychic powers, but you can make an argument that it allows powers to be used more than once out of sequence.
I don't really think there is any kind of rules interpretation which would let you to do that. IIRC even if you have Mastery level better than one, you can't use psychic powers which are shooting attacks more than once. Automatically Appended Next Post: mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:
Yeah, your right, but i hardly see any Dark Angels Armies that much any more.
Actually the new FAQ has made Deathwing more popular. DW might also has a shot against this kind of army - at 2000 points they will probably bring 6 Terminator squads. Cyclones outrange S10 blasts and the army may also have psychic defence.
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Post by: Dashofpepper
Backfire wrote:
Actually the new FAQ has made Deathwing more popular. DW might also has a shot against this kind of army - at 2000 points they will probably bring 6 Terminator squads. Cyclones outrange S10 blasts and the army may also have psychic defence.
Actually, I'd go so far as to say that the new FAQ *briefly* made DW more popular. It nabbed an extra player or two, but after the shininess of old toys dusted off wore off, it was back to SW and now GK for most of those guys.
And believe me, a game of 40k cannot be simplified into "cyclone missiles outrange STR10 blasts"
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Post by: agnosto
Tau might actually do decent against that list, with a bit of luck.
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Post by: Backfire
Dashofpepper wrote:
Actually, I'd go so far as to say that the new FAQ *briefly* made DW more popular. It nabbed an extra player or two, but after the shininess of old toys dusted off wore off, it was back to SW and now GK for most of those guys.
And believe me, a game of 40k cannot be simplified into "cyclone missiles outrange STR10 blasts"
Of course it can't, but isn't the same true for "STR10 Psychic tests blowing everything up"?
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Post by: Deadshane1
Dash, that army is garbage against anyone with psychic defense and the ability to maneuver it within 24" of your lines.
....or pretty much any eldar list with wards.
One perils check wipes out all your psykers in one squad? No thanks.
I agree that the firepower in the Grey Knights codex is good, but losing the usefullness of 350pts of your army from the get-go against some builds?
Bad.
Heck...footdar has a good chance against this...what's that all about?
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Post by: Grundz
what do you think about cutting cro's squad down and adding plasma cannon servitors to it instead then using the extra points for an extra psyker for each squad?
it isnt a S9-10 blast, but gives you more firepower to put on squads with the hoods.
ive been toying with a similiar list, admech based, with lots of techmarines +orbitals combined with librarians to give 2+ cover saves.
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Post by: Backfire
Deadshane1 wrote:Dash, that army is garbage against anyone with psychic defense and the ability to maneuver it within 24" of your lines.
....or pretty much any eldar list with wards.
One perils check wipes out all your psykers in one squad? No thanks.
I agree that the firepower in the Grey Knights codex is good, but losing the usefullness of 350pts of your army from the get-go against some builds?
Bad.
In fairness to Dash, I think the point was rather to present an example of truly over-the-top list, rather than come up with a newest tournament cheese...
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Post by: Deadshane1
Your list is not over-the-top if it gets shut down by mediocre tourney armies.
Eldar hamstrings 350pts of this armies firepower w/o having to do anything but bring a 15-20 pt peice of wargear.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Bruteboss wrote:
Also Dash, if you play this list again, try joining Coteaz to the vindicator sometime. I did it once and the results were hilarious. DOA blood angels with no meltaguns or sergeants is a real laugh riot.
ICs can't join an assassin. They are unit of always and exactly one model. Automatically Appended Next Post: Dashofpepper wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anvildude wrote:Would Coteaz be able to defend against a Wierdboy doing his Tellyporta thing? I mean, if the rule's called "I've been expecting you", it sounds like it wouldn't do squat against an unplanned jaunt.
Actually, it would work. The weirdboy power says to place the unit anywhere on the table using the deep-striking rules.
Turning to the deep-striking rules...*ponders* It says that all deep-striking units arrive from reserves.
Then why do people claim things like teleport homers and locator beacons don't work with The Gate under the statement that they aren't arriving from reserve anymore?
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Post by: Grundz
DarknessEternal wrote:
Then why do people claim things like teleport homers and locator beacons don't work with The Gate under the statement that they aren't arriving from reserve anymore?
its a connundrum!
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Post by: wyomingfox
Grundz wrote:DarknessEternal wrote:
Then why do people claim things like teleport homers and locator beacons don't work with The Gate under the statement that they aren't arriving from reserve anymore?
its a connundrum!
Because the codex rule doesn't place the unit into reserve in order to perform a deepstrike (unlike, for example, the rule for the Nid's Mawlock). Therefore the codex makes an exception to BRB general rule that all deepstriking units come from reserve.
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Post by: Grundz
wyomingfox wrote:Because the codex rule doesn't place the unit into reserve in order to perform a deepstrike (unlike, for example, the rule for the Nid's Mawlock). Therefore the codex makes an exception to BRB general rule that all deepstriking units come from reserve.
Thats what I thought as well, it is the same if you disembark from a storm raven that went flat out.
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Post by: Caffran9
Deadshane1 wrote:Your list is not over-the-top if it gets shut down by mediocre tourney armies.
Eldar hamstrings 350pts of this armies firepower w/o having to do anything but bring a 15-20 pt peice of wargear.
I don't think it's over the top either. However is brings very strong shooting, and the ability to deny the opponent various avenues that are generally threatening for a shooting army of this variety (which is why it is so interesting). In the iteration posted, it is not optimal. Dash has freely admitted this multiple times already in this thread.
As far as Eldar goes: 10 Lascannons and 8 TL Autocannons shooting at str8 is going to be really strong against mech Eldar, the blasts aren't really needed, they're icing on that cake. Those guns will surely put the Farseer on the table pretty quick, and then he has to try and survive shooting from the Vindicare. Against foot Eldar the blasts are more relevant, but the Farseer is prossibly on foot already so half of the GK player's job is done already (getting the Farseer on the table) and the Vindicare can run riot on him. If the Farseer is flying around in a tank, then it's the same sort of deal as with a mech build.
Eldar don't bring the kind of firepower needed to shut these guns down quickly and effectively, especially with the Dreads potentially ignoring shaken/stunned results. It's deceptive when looking at the list, because RoW does shut the psykers off completely as long as it's on the table, but the army has solid ways to remove RoW from the table and the proper guns to scare the majority of units that Eldar would put on the table. If the Eldar player can kill the Vinidcare very quickly then he's in a solid position has the RoW will be better protected after that. The stack of guns in the list that operate independent of psychic checks and are strong against Eldar vehicles remains very high though.
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Post by: Dashofpepper
wyomingfox wrote:Grundz wrote:DarknessEternal wrote:
Then why do people claim things like teleport homers and locator beacons don't work with The Gate under the statement that they aren't arriving from reserve anymore?
its a connundrum!
Because the codex rule doesn't place the unit into reserve in order to perform a deepstrike (unlike, for example, the rule for the Nid's Mawlock). Therefore the codex makes an exception to BRB general rule that all deepstriking units come from reserve.
In that case...a teleporting unit that mishaps and rolls a 5-6 is destroyed, right? Because they weren't in reserves, they have no reserves to go back into.
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Post by: Polonius
All I know is that if I were to design an army that had only one weakness, it would be to a list that was normally weak and rare. Struggling only against Space Wolves means you'll rarely win a tournament. Struggling only against Tau means you'll rarely lose.
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Post by: wyomingfox
Dashofpepper wrote:wyomingfox wrote:Grundz wrote:DarknessEternal wrote:
Then why do people claim things like teleport homers and locator beacons don't work with The Gate under the statement that they aren't arriving from reserve anymore?
its a connundrum!
Because the codex rule doesn't place the unit into reserve in order to perform a deepstrike (unlike, for example, the rule for the Nid's Mawlock). Therefore the codex makes an exception to BRB general rule that all deepstriking units come from reserve.
In that case...a teleporting unit that mishaps and rolls a 5-6 is destroyed, right? Because they weren't in reserves, they have no reserves to go back into.
No, the rule simply breaks at that point. Most people I know simply play it as "they go into reserves" rather than "they go back into reserves". But that is a house rule.
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Post by: Hulksmash
@Caffran
Who would run Footdar w/out their Farseer (Eldrad really) being in a unit of Harlies?
@Dash
Interesting list
Personally I think it's main issue is it's paper and heavily relies on going first. Also the fact your testing it up on vassal makes a large difference as well. And wow-za did that DE player blow it. So he deserved what he had coming to him since I'd fully expect you to shoot that list off the table
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Post by: chobarba
Dashofpepper wrote:
@Luke_Prowler: *laughing* It is completely ridiculous. And cheese. I won't ever put it on the table; I *much* prefer underdog armies. Necrons, old DE, Orks...when the new Necron dex comes out, I'll have to find the new worst codex to champion.
tau mabye??
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Post by: Dashofpepper
chobarba wrote:Dashofpepper wrote:
@Luke_Prowler: *laughing* It is completely ridiculous. And cheese. I won't ever put it on the table; I *much* prefer underdog armies. Necrons, old DE, Orks...when the new Necron dex comes out, I'll have to find the new worst codex to champion.
tau mabye??
I started with Tau actually as my first army and did very well with them. I even wrote some tactica and guides back in the day. I traded them for Necrons, which were much worse.
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Post by: Caffran9
Hulksmash wrote:@Caffran
Who would run Footdar w/out their Farseer (Eldrad really) being in a unit of Harlies?
Somehow, I managed to forget about Harlies (some of my favorite GW models ever too), that's what I get for doing 3 things at once I guess. That does certainly change things a bit for that matchup. It also forces the Eldar player to either leave his Harlequins in the safety that comes being far away from the opposing army where they can protect the Farseer, or to be more aggressive/counter aggressive with them, which exposes the Farseer to some risk as once the unit closes in, it becomes vulnerable to guns, provided it isn't stuck in CC of course. If they try to protect the Farseer with them Harlies then they're missing a lot of their power/ CC protection as a result. The exact list Dash posted doesn't really threaten anything in CC, but a more refined version could see huge benefit from something fast moving like shunting Interceptors or perhaps Purifiers in a transport, among other things.
What it basically seems to boil down to is whether or not the GK player can kill the Farseer quickly and unlock his psykers. I'm still not completely convinced that it even needs to happen against Foot Eldar as most of their shooting is coming in at high volume str6. The Dreads and Chimeras aren't under huge pressure from this, and the Dreads will win every shooting exchange against stuff like 2x Scatter Laser Warwalkers. Lance weapons on those units are terribly expensive for how frail they are as well, so they're tough to include.
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Post by: Brother Ramses
I can send you a couple of figs, a half-eaten bag of sunflower seeds, two Sharpie makers, and a pack of Post-its. Care to make an underdog list out of that?
Good times list. While heavy on first turn reliance, it can still eek out when not getting it as has been the case for Dash.
Any experience against psychic attacks, against you? I was thinking with the screened dreads giving the whole extended aegis or whatever it is called to those within 12" would make that a losing strat as well.
15717
Post by: Backfire
Dashofpepper wrote:
I started with Tau actually as my first army and did very well with them. I even wrote some tactica and guides back in the day. I traded them for Necrons, which were much worse.
Hm, you're running out of crappy armies to champion for. Templars, Dark Angels...? Or SoB, after Necrons come out it will be the last 3rd edition army.
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Post by: Anvildude
Will it actually happen? Will all the armies eventually be...balanced with each other? Say it ain't so!
15717
Post by: Backfire
Anvildude wrote:Will it actually happen? Will all the armies eventually be...balanced with each other? Say it ain't so!
Of course not, don't be silly. But maybe within a year or so, "universally" accepted crappy/obsolete books will be (hopefully) fixed, leaving semi-obsolete books like DA and BT.
Maybe Dash can start Daemons. Lots of people are saying they are totally hosed by new shooty armies and GK.
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Post by: Dashofpepper
Backfire wrote:Anvildude wrote:Will it actually happen? Will all the armies eventually be...balanced with each other? Say it ain't so!
Of course not, don't be silly. But maybe within a year or so, "universally" accepted crappy/obsolete books will be (hopefully) fixed, leaving semi-obsolete books like DA and BT.
Maybe Dash can start Daemons. Lots of people are saying they are totally hosed by new shooty armies and GK.
o.O That's not a bad idea. And...no to Sisters of Battle. I've astutely refused to start any Imperium Army. Except for my Second Legion, the MechaMarines (Necrons), who were expunged from Imperial records, so technically aren't an Imperial Force anymore.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
If you're looking for a bad army, I recommend non-mechanized Eldar.
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Post by: The Grundel
I don't play a list like this one but I do use corteaz and what not. The plasma cannon servitors in his squad seem to really piss pound the enemy into submission, The psykers are GOOD, but they aren't GREAT. Granted you need a independent character in the squad for them to shoot properly so you can't spam them; but they are good none the less. 30 points cheaper then 8 psykers too.
The capturing objectives is a weakness in the list posted but a few tweaks (interceptors) and it CAN capture stuff. What I have been using with success is using interceptors to contest objectives I know I can't get, terminators to capture the objectives i've blasted the enemy off of, and whatever squads near me to capture my own.
The more a list is perceived as 'dangerous' the more people will focus on it, and alter their lists to combat it. My buddy I play frequently uses his 'peterson special' (3 HB attack bikes) and land speeder to widdle away at my henchmen squads till they are less of a threat. The psykers are good but once you kill 3-4 of them they lose their potency.
36943
Post by: Dakkafang Dreggrim
Can you draw LOS out of a vechile for "I knew you were coming" ?
I dont run any transports so , not sure if Corteaz can draw LOS out of a chimera.
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Post by: Bruteboss
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:Can you draw LOS out of a vechile for "I knew you were coming" ?
I dont run any transports so , not sure if Corteaz can draw LOS out of a chimera.
He's ability modifies shooting in the unit he belongs to, and a unit can shoot out of an vehicle with fireports. Chimeras have fireports that draw LOS from the turrret = Coteaz's ability draws LOS from the turret.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Bruteboss wrote: Chimeras have fireports that draw LOS from the turrret = Coteaz's ability draws LOS from the turret.
Hatch, not turret.
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Post by: gpfunk
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:Can you draw LOS out of a vechile for "I knew you were coming" ?
I dont run any transports so , not sure if Corteaz can draw LOS out of a chimera.
Haha sorry man I just had to point it out...
The rule is called "I've been expecting you"
No worries, just thought it was funny.
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Post by: loota boy
Well dash, if you're interested in testing gk and you like underdog armies, would you mind testing the draigo wing all paly army? I really think this build has potential, but it isn't all that competetive. It would be cool to see how it ran with someone experianced behind the wheel.
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Post by: olympia
I played a list like this the other day with my purifier spam army. It was hilarious watching the psykers try to activate on a "4" due to the reinforced aegis from my three psyflemen dreads.
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Post by: Nephil1m
I said it as soon as I saw the proto-dex; Monkey Bus is where it's at.
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Post by: purplefood
That Planet of the Apes list?
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Post by: Dashofpepper
loota boy wrote:Well dash, if you're interested in testing gk and you like underdog armies, would you mind testing the draigo wing all paly army? I really think this build has potential, but it isn't all that competetive. It would be cool to see how it ran with someone experianced behind the wheel.
I don't like underdog armies, I like underdog codexes. Playing a crappy GK army when so much more potency is available in the codex doesn't fit my taste. I'm currently rampaging with Necrons - when they get their new codex, if they are super-powered....I'm not sure what I'll go to next. I can't go back to Tau because I traded them out. Probably not Sisters because they're supposed to be next. Maybe Eldar.
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Post by: loota boy
Dashofpepper wrote:loota boy wrote:Well dash, if you're interested in testing gk and you like underdog armies, would you mind testing the draigo wing all paly army? I really think this build has potential, but it isn't all that competetive. It would be cool to see how it ran with someone experianced behind the wheel.
I don't like underdog armies, I like underdog codexes. Playing a crappy GK army when so much more potency is available in the codex doesn't fit my taste. I'm currently rampaging with Necrons - when they get their new codex, if they are super-powered....I'm not sure what I'll go to next. I can't go back to Tau because I traded them out. Probably not Sisters because they're supposed to be next. Maybe Eldar.
Ah. I see. I suppose I'll do it all my own then. Eldar would be a good choice then, yeah.
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Post by: Jaon
Dashofpepper wrote:loota boy wrote:Well dash, if you're interested in testing gk and you like underdog armies, would you mind testing the draigo wing all paly army? I really think this build has potential, but it isn't all that competetive. It would be cool to see how it ran with someone experianced behind the wheel.
I don't like underdog armies, I like underdog codexes. Playing a crappy GK army when so much more potency is available in the codex doesn't fit my taste. I'm currently rampaging with Necrons - when they get their new codex, if they are super-powered....I'm not sure what I'll go to next. I can't go back to Tau because I traded them out. Probably not Sisters because they're supposed to be next. Maybe Eldar.
What about chaos? They suck atm....apart from those few uber FZORGLE builds.
Just out of interest, can I find you anywhere on RankingsHQ.com? If not dw about it.
Awesome list, its sad you cant try it out in real life, I suspect vassal has something to do with so many players conceding, but none the less, its a list no army wants to face. Those who say this list is weak against some enemies....what exactly does str10 ap 1 large blast NOT kill?
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Post by: Avariel
I playtested something similar but without the librarian and vindicare for another Venerable and Coteaz unit has less psykers and plasma cannons. You really don't want a strength 10 ap 1 shot scattering back on you while using Coteaz's anti deepstrikea bility.
Your list is probably better but a friend and I are going for a Planet of the Apes themed list with the Jokaero as the master apes with dreadnoughts as giant apes toting heavy guns (auto cannons) and psykers as slaves and Coteaz as the guy looking up into the sky. Hopefully she will be able to go to Nova and have it done by then. She is on the chopping block as NYC teacher so :(
Its a huge blow out versus random scrubs on vassal where your probably playing annihilation because thats what they want and they rage quit after getting half their stuff blown up on turn one even when you reserved it all and come on and wreck a lot of stuff.
Against actual good GT players and lists its a different story. The list lacks mobility so its actually hard to win a Nova style table corners or 5 objectives mission. Yes you shoot very well and wreck and kill a lot of stuff but those last 2 marines hiding behind that wreck of a Rhino are still holding that objective. Going second and reserving hurts this list quite a bit shooting wise and makes it more difficult to get to the middle objective / win table corners as you lose all your las cannon shots moving. Ending on turn 5 is terrible for this list. The psykers take a hit as most Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Space Marine lists have a hood they rushing you with.
My friend really doesn't care she's in it for winning best painted and a gunline suits her fine as its easier for her to play.
This list also has a bunch of what ifs about it.
First big debate about this list also is do dreadnoughts get to get cover from vehicles and shoot over them? Some vassal people said no you can't hid behind vehicles and shoot auto cannons. My real life magnetized dreads on resin bases it works fine but thats not a stock base so I made a you make the call thread.
Second debate is exactly how does Coteaz's anti deepstrike ability work. You put him in the corner to protect your objective and flank. Some outflanking scout bikes come on and zoom up to one inch away to Coteaz's chimera. Coteaz now has problems seeing them from the fire point and they have a cover save at the very least if Coteaz can see them. Does Coteaz fire at them in that position right next to his chimera or immediately when they come on the board? Next to the chimera they get cover save and the blasts have a high chance of scattering back on the chimera. if they get shot at the board edge they might not get cover and there is less risk to Coteaz.
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Post by: jy2
Jaon wrote:
Just out of interest, can I find you anywhere on RankingsHQ.com? If not dw about it.
I believe Dash is currently ranked #7 overall on RankinsHQ.com.
Awesome list, its sad you cant try it out in real life, I suspect vassal has something to do with so many players conceding, but none the less, its a list no army wants to face. Those who say this list is weak against some enemies....what exactly does str10 ap 1 large blast NOT kill?
It is a gimmicky list that will either kill the enemy or probably get killed themselves against any army with psychic defense. I would play it for fun, but if I'm serious about competitive play, I would use a more balanced army.
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Post by: Spiky Norman
Several people have mentioned that it's a fun army, but that they would suggested a more balanced army to use in competative play.
So, does anyone have any links to a Coteaz henchmen-only balanced and competitive list?
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Post by: dayve110
If you still run that GK list i have a list that might... MIGHT be able to hold up against it, but dont take my word on it >.<
And if you move onto Eldar... I'll be very interested to see where you go with them.
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Post by: Culler
I keep seeing psykers taken in units of 7, but doesn't that make the strength of the blast 9 since it's 3+1 per additional psyker beyond the first?
Seems like if you're going for it, may as well spring for strength 10.
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Post by: svendrex
I wrote up an article on henchmen. (see signature) I do not have any lists there yet, as often it takes a few months for people to start to figure out builds and such.
A more balanced build is one that does not rely entirely (or at least not this much) on Psykic shooting attacks.
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