I'm just curious, what are LGBT laws in the Imperium?

Are there gay, lesbian or bi people?

Seems like something that the Imperium would frown upon. Then again, I have no idea.

The Imperium doesn't care. There's a lot of homosexuals in the fluff, and no one bats an eye.

CULTISTS Of SLAANESH MUST BE PURGED! At least that's what the more paranoid people would think.

Being gay is perfectly OK as long as you lust after the emperor.

Loyalty to the emperor is all that matters. At this point unless you are with chaos other humans dont care what you are they have xenos to hate.

The problem with asking about largely cultural-based laws in the Imperium is that the Imperium is a big place, with lots and lots of worlds. And each world is left largely to itself. Submit your Imperial tithes on time, worship the Emperor in the approved fashions, etc... and the Imperium will largely leave you alone. Barring some as yet unknown pronouncement from the Emperor, the Imperium really doesn't care about that sort of thing.

So is the Imperium going to care of you're LGBT? Generally no. On the other hand, there's nothing stopping planetary governments from restricting and/or prohibiting LGBT. And once again, the Imperium isn't going to care.

The Imperium as a whole probably does not care, as long as it does not distract you from your duties to the imperium, specific planetary cultures may have another idea.

Hawkward wrote:The Imperium doesn't care. There's a lot of homosexuals in the fluff, and no one bats an eye.

really? who?

Also for a while, I thought the the Emperor had some "secret" relationship with Horus the same way Gandalf had a "special" relationship with Saruman in Lord of the Rings(strongly implied but never specifically mentioned)

PresidentOfAsia wrote:

Hawkward wrote:The Imperium doesn't care. There's a lot of homosexuals in the fluff, and no one bats an eye.

really? who?

read ravenor, homosexuality is mentioned there fairly casually, most imperial citizens don't care either way

PresidentOfAsia wrote:really? who?

There's Magot and her partner (can't remember her name off the top of my head) in the Commisar Cain books. Though it's never shown, Cain identifies them as a lesbian couple. iirc, Cain also indicates that there are more same sex pairings within the 597th Valhallan, and he doesn't really care about them so long as they don't affect morale.

Considering that the Imperial cult is heavily based on medieval Christian society, I wouldn't be terribly optimistic about it. GW avoids it (aside from old jokes like the Dark Angels' "shameful secret" that got retconned anyway) since it isn't really something that needs to be brought up, and can invoke too much controversy.

The Imperium doesn't care. There's a lot of homosexuals in the fluff, and no one bats an eye.

Can you cite Some of the fluff Where LGBT is mentioned?

LGBT is mentioned in many non-Astartes stories. The Cain stories reference both gay men and lesbian women multiple times, even having two of the most capable recurring characters, Magot and Grifen, are pretty overtly lesbians. Cain's response is basically "it's none of my business as long as they perform well on the battlefield"-- and that's basically the official response of the commissariat to these kinds of relationships, and you don't get that much more strict than they.

Hell, at least gay/lesbian relationships mean that they won't have a risk of getting pregnant, which would cut down on their combat capability.

Haha, just what I was thinking. I'm guessing that worlds with a sufficient population (like hive worlds-but most others) would be okay with it. Then again, GW will probably never give an answer, using the regular cop-out of "write your own", as it's currently a too-hot topic right now, and they don't want to risk losing business. It's a shame though; I'd like to hear the official answer, and see if the fictional Imperial society might be more advanced than our current one in a few accounts (other than some technology).

I don't see problem with it. As long as that don't interfere with your duties, it's ok.

Why are people so amused to this? When you have 90% of purely male and female Regiments of course that will be gays and lesbians.

As for the citizen private life, Imperium is only concerned in your tithe and Chaos worship. Except for those 2 you can do whatever you want. These meant that in fact Imperial is after all respect the rights and privacy of it's citizens.

micahaphone wrote:It's a shame though; I'd like to hear the official answer, and see if the fictional Imperial society might be more advanced than our current one in a few accounts (other than some technology).

"Advancement" doesn't really have anything to do with the issue. It's documented as having been tolerated or otherwise seen as normal in some of the most primitive civilizations that can qualify as civilizations in the first place, and can currently be observed as tolerated in some of the most advanced societies on Earth. It can therefore be seen as a variable independent of the relative progress of a society. It's at most tied to the ability of a population to grow: a population that can't expand its numbers readily is more tolerant, while one that can increase becomes less tolerant (which actually creates a negative correlation with advancement, since a more advanced society can support a greater population, and would therefore seek to encourage procreation as a general trend). Of course, that gets muddied when one adds inflexible dogmatic traditions into the picture, especially ones from entirely different cultures, and like any general trend there are always exceptions both ways, but that's roughly the observed anthropological situation.


As for examples, the only ones I can remember are from the Ciaphas Cain novels: the aforementioned Magot and Grifen, and the Captain of the Righteous Wrath in For the Emperor, who's stated to have had a relationship with one of the provosts killed in the riot (Cain suspects as much, Vail's commentary confirms it, with a mention of it being against regulations due the difference in rank).

micahaphone wrote:and see if the fictional Imperial society might be more advanced than our current one in a few accounts (other than some technology).

And with that statement you miss the point completely.

The Imperium isn't "more advanced" or "less advanced" in this area. There literally is no correlation between LGBT and the Imperium (actually, given that many military units are usually structured along gender-specific lines, there might actually be official policies regarding T in groups like the IG and Sororitas). It's like asking whether or not a sea captain cares about rabbits. As indicated, Cain doesn't care about such relationships within the Valhallan 597th, and it appears that the regimental officers don't pay any attention to them either. But you could just as easily encounter a regiment from a planet with a dimmer view of such relationships that decided to restrict same sex relationships - and it's likely that the comissar would go along with that if he or she felt that it aided regimental morale.

About the only group within the Imperium that you can probably point to and assume that they care either way are the Redemptionists - and largely because they probably disapprove of sex in general. Also note that they're a highly unofficial Puritanical (in every sense of the word) fringe sect of the Imperial Creed, and not representative of official Imperial views.

As most other posters have aleady said, the Imperium itself is unlikely to give a damn one way or another (they've got a galaxy to defend/rule/save/dominate).

The view on same-sex relationships would depend immensely on the world, but will have nothing to do with the Imperium. Just as a planetary governer may outlaw tight jeans, wearing a single glove and really sexy dance moves. So long as tithes continue to pour in the Imperium isn't going to give a toss about that one way or another.

It does make me wonder though, what if a planet was extremely discriminative against [insert gender/hair colour/ethnicity here] and then an Inquisitor shows up who happens to be [insert gender/hair colour/ethnicity here]. I doubt s/he'd be down with it.

EDIT: I believe slavery was an exception to this. The Imperium doesn't seem to tolerate it.

I'd say Bi and Trans gender is looked down upon.

For Bi,liking two things sounds like Slaanesh worship.

And wanting to change who you are would be heresy of the Emperors design.

Melkhiordarkblade wrote:I'd say Bi and Trans gender is looked down upon.

For Bi,liking two things sounds like Slaanesh worship.

Citizen: I like ice-cream and puppies.
Inquisitor: Liking two things?! HERESY!

And wanting to change who you are would be heresy of the Emperors design.

Actually, this makes sense. Especially with the Imperial Creed.

(aside from old jokes like the Dark Angels' "shameful secret" that got retconned anyway) since it isn't really something that needs to be brought up, and can invoke too much controversy.

But wasn't Lionel Johnson a gay poet who wrote poetry to his lover? Hence the primarchs name and the origin of that myth?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melkhiordarkblade wrote:I'd say Bi and Trans gender is looked down upon.

For Bi,liking two things sounds like Slaanesh worship.

Citizen: I like ice-cream and puppies.
Inquisitor: Liking two things?! HERESY!

And wanting to change who you are would be heresy of the Emperors design.

Actually, this makes sense. Especially with the Imperial Creed.

Hmmm, what side should i be on in this debate....As with so many things in the 40K universe it differs from world to world....Thats my stance on it

The problem with the Imperial Creed though is that it's far more reaching than one planet's whims. I'm sure there would be exceptional planets, but generally most would stick roughly to whatever the Imperial Creed dictated, depending on whether their influence waxed or waned.

Melkhiordarkblade wrote:I'd say Bi and Trans gender is looked down upon.

For Bi,liking two things sounds like Slaanesh worship.

And wanting to change who you are would be heresy of the Emperors design.

+ I think that they don't have any more tech to utilize this...

The High Lords care not what harmless fun you have in your free time as long as you pay taxes and serve the Emperor. It's really up to individual planets or solar systems, as long as they're not doing something so suspect as executing large numbers of perfectly healthy people. That would be wasting the Emperor's subjects for no good reason!

I'd imagine some places do discriminate. A new colony or a world in decline due to low population is likely to encourage everyone to breed. You'd better be prepared to do your duty. There might be extra taxes on you if you don't marry to have children. They might even be so sneaky as to induct more of the LGBT crowd into their military tithe just to get rid of them. Why not? It might even be tradition in some places, like the Sacred Band of Thebes.

Emperors Faithful wrote:It does make me wonder though, what if a planet was extremely discriminative against [insert gender/hair colour/ethnicity here] and then an Inquisitor shows up who happens to be [insert gender/hair colour/ethnicity here]. I doubt s/he'd be down with it.

It would depend on how much of a fuss the inquisitor wanted to make. Some inquisitors like to keep quiet and avoid attracting notice. Others like to generate attention because they have massive egos. Still others might decide to make a fuss purely to see what the results are.

EDIT: I believe slavery was an exception to this. The Imperium doesn't seem to tolerate it.

I don't know whether slavery itself is banned, but there are enough examples of "slavery in all but name" to make the point effectively moot.

Eumerin wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:It does make me wonder though, what if a planet was extremely discriminative against [insert gender/hair colour/ethnicity here] and then an Inquisitor shows up who happens to be [insert gender/hair colour/ethnicity here]. I doubt s/he'd be down with it.

It would depend on how much of a fuss the inquisitor wanted to make. Some inquisitors like to keep quiet and avoid attracting notice. Others like to generate attention because they have massive egos. Still others might decide to make a fuss purely to see what the results are.

Well, if they were undercover it would seriously hamper their ability to investigate wouldn't it? Since they'd need to co-operate with the local arbites.

EDIT: I believe slavery was an exception to this. The Imperium doesn't seem to tolerate it.

I don't know whether slavery itself is banned, but there are enough examples of "slavery in all but name" to make the point effectively moot.

True, and it's not like the Imperium could actually control this on each planet. I remember in the Black Templar graphic novel some captured tribesmen were forced to fight one another in a gladiatorial ring.

Interplanetary slave trades were right out though.

Brother SRM wrote: (aside from old jokes like the Dark Angels' "shameful secret" that .

What secret?

Lionel Johnson was a poet that repressed his homosexuality and wrote the poem 'The Dark Angel'

Johnson's homosexuality caused internal conflict with the catholicism he practised. It was his secret 'shame' that he had to bear alone.

Lion El'Jonson was the Primarch of the Dark Angels, who was betrayed by Luther.

The Dark Angels now alone bear the 'shame' of knowing their dark secret while still serving the imperium.

I think this is the correlation anyway.

The Imperial Creed is basically "worship the Emperor and don't worship Chaos."

It really does vary from planet to planet, sometimes drastically. Hell, some planets basically have pagan blood and murder rituals dedicated to Emperor worship. They make the Ecclesiarchy nervous, but as long as they worship the Emperor, the suspicion stays merely that, suspicion.

There's nothing wrong with cybernetics or cosmetics in 40k. Emperor knows how many people replace parts of their body with machines, and you know how much the Imperium doesn't trust machines.

Couple of fluff bits make me think the the IoM does not care if Big-E's subjects are fabulous. In one of the Gaunt books an inquisitor alleges that Gaunt *likes* to have Milo around in a NTTIAWWT kind of way. I think in Gun Heads some AdMech picked up that the ecclesiastic attachment to the mission liked him some solder boys, the AdMech did not care, but it was only slightly frowned on.

Of course, it would have been frowned on even if it was heterosexual.

Eumerin wrote:

EDIT: I believe slavery was an exception to this. The Imperium doesn't seem to tolerate it.

I don't know whether slavery itself is banned, but there are enough examples of "slavery in all but name" to make the point effectively moot.

Slavery is far from banned in the Imperium. They just tend not to do it to non-Mutants. Mutant slavery is the only way that mutants are allowed to actively survive in the Imperium.

It's why mutants tend to flock to Chaos, it promises them freedom over their Imperial overlords(and then turns around and just forces them into worse slavery under a different master at the cost of their souls).

I wouldn't say the joke has been retconned away...
Lion EL'Johnson Still is the Primarch of the Dark Angels
They still have a terrible Secret.

For those not in the know...linky

Platuan4th wrote:

Eumerin wrote:

EDIT: I believe slavery was an exception to this. The Imperium doesn't seem to tolerate it.

I don't know whether slavery itself is banned, but there are enough examples of "slavery in all but name" to make the point effectively moot.

Slavery is far from banned in the Imperium. They just tend not to do it to non-Mutants. Mutant slavery is the only way that mutants are allowed to actively survive in the Imperium.

It's why mutants tend to flock to Chaos, it promises them freedom over their Imperial overlords(and then turns around and just forces them into worse slavery under a different master at the cost of their souls).

Slavery itself is hardly banned, there's just not an interplanetary slave trade, or at least an open one. De facto slavery is fairly common, though more in a serfdom/"company town" manner. Mutants aren't necessarily slaves either; Eisenhorn has an agriworld where they're tolerated as cheap labor due to a lack of humans. Generally they're just exterminated, since they're universally tainted by Chaos and possessed of a violent hatred of humans.

PresidentOfAsia wrote:I'm just curious, what are LGBT laws in the Imperium?

Are there gay, lesbian or bi people?

As an IG you are out for pretty much your entire life most likely fighting beside men. Lots of men. You will eat breakfast, with men. You will tell stories of battle, with men. and especially maintain your "weapon"........ with men.

Our TG friends seem kinda Slaanashii to me. Does that make me a bigot?

xXSir MontyXx wrote:
As an IG you are out for pretty much your entire life most likely fighting beside men. Lots of men. You will eat breakfast, with men. You will tell stories of battle, with men. and especially maintain your "weapon"........ with men.

Of course camp followers, brothel workers,transport ship crews and overall population of imperial planets also consists from men only.



Most probably on most worlds same-sex orientation is considered sin (hey, it's surely in domain of Slaanesh), but either "Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi" or this considered as sin with only slight penance - as any cult needs some "forgivable" sins.

PS I was shocked to read that for russian Orthodox Church in middle ages adultery and homosexualism were more serious sins than witchery.

It's not LGBT that's associated with Slaanesh, but hermaphroditism.

chyron wrote:Most probably on most worlds same-sex orientation is considered sin

I've seen no real evidence of this. Pretty much all fluff that's ever mentioned homosexuality in 40k has basically been that it's acceptable and the Imperium doesn't care-- heck it doesn't even seem to make other people uncomfortable, so in a sense that may be one of the few areas where the Imperium is more progressive than modern societies.

I don't know.

In a Theocracy that thinks that throwing human lives at problems will make them go away it wouldn't be far fetched to think that being a "breeder" would be encouraged in particularly draconian fashion.

Still, I think that this would vary from world to world.

Medium of Death wrote:Lionel Johnson was a poet that repressed his homosexuality and wrote the poem 'The Dark Angel'

Johnson's homosexuality caused internal conflict with the catholicism he practised. It was his secret 'shame' that he had to bear alone.

Lion El'Jonson was the Primarch of the Dark Angels, who was betrayed by Luther.

The Dark Angels now alone bear the 'shame' of knowing their dark secret while still serving the imperium.

I think this is the correlation anyway.

Pretty much. Though there isn't any fluff that I know of that the Dark Angels know of that if that is the case. I think with their hatred of all things chaos they'd go on some massive repentence crusade in the eye of terror if they were to view it as slaaneshi.

I am pleasantly surprised about how polite and mature this discussion has been.

Good show, folks!

Melissia wrote:It's not LGBT that's associated with Slaanesh, but hermaphroditism.

Sex with not even nominal connection to reproduction?Hellooo???
Anyway i can't imagine something like "gay pride" event on Imperial worlds without some prometheum-hot reaction from Ecclesiarchy.

And iirc in fluff (in all cases i remember) homosexual orientation was something not shown openly for reasons i think obvious. At same time i can't remember any country from last two centuries where anti-gay law wasn't used very selectively ((iirc only Third Reich was really enforcing this policy, but with number of "special cases" and only toward aryans)

chyron wrote:Sex with not even nominal connection to reproduction?

Yes, because that's why teens and college kids are having the sex.

Not because it's, y'know, FUN or an expression of emotional attachment.

chyron wrote:Sex with not even nominal connection to reproduction?Hellooo???

So? Taht just means that their industrial/military/whatever efficiency doesn't go down despite their relationship-- it would if one of them became pregnant.

Slaanesh isn't the god of sex. S/he's the god of excess.

Honestly, I think it's vague for the whole "were not going near that with a 10ft pole" stance from GW.

IMO, or how I think/like it to work, seems to be the consensus. Do your duty, pay your taxes and die when told to, what you do with your sexual organs (as long as it does not interfere with previous) is a waste of time and effort on the administration.

And of course there is that whole, spend 20 years not seeing a man/woman thing throughout history. Hell, some people don't make it a year now, most of the rape cases we had in Iraq (coalition forces) were male on male. Though, rape =/= sex (sorta) so that may be a mute point.

I just see it that with all the rest of the problems rampaging around their galaxy, sexual orientation is a old hat. Your not going to care what the Jones are doing in their bedroom, your going to care if the Jones sprout horns and open a deamon portal. Or where your going to get your next meal from, ect ect.

And while alot of folks may see being LGBT as being fairly Slaaneshy, maybe if it was done only for sex, and not in a relationship type situation. Being LGBT doesn't mean their running around in huge drug soaked orgies, just having a lifemate of the possibly same/different gender.

Given the Emperor's views on promoting the growth of Mankind, I would think he'd frown on homosexuality as an evolutionary cul-de-sac.

Why does everyone assume that every imperial would shout "SLAANESH!" the moment they witnesses homosexuality

Unless they're an inquisitor or a grey knight they will have never heard of Slaanesh or anything to do with chaos. Most imperial citizens aren't activley looking for heresy, why infact only the Inquisition, the Arbites, Astartes and commissariat make any effort to root out heresy.

Dr. Lemonade wrote:Given the Emperor's views on promoting the growth of Mankind, I would think he'd frown on homosexuality as an evolutionary cul-de-sac.

That presumes there's no evolutionary reason for the existence of homosexuality (there are many proposed reasons for gene-caused homosexual preferences).

Monster Rain wrote:I don't know.

In a Theocracy that thinks that throwing human lives at problems will make them go away it wouldn't be far fetched to think that being a "breeder" would be encouraged in particularly draconian fashion.

Still, I think that this would vary from world to world.

The "drown it in bodies" solution is mostly a product of having such a massive population that billions of lives could be thrown away every year and it wouldn't begin to slow population growth. The Imperial military makes up less than a thousandth of its population, most of which comes from hiveworlds where one thousandth of the population is greater than the current population of the US.

But yeah, definitely a "varies from world to world" sort of thing, just like any cultural element, since the Imperium's only universal policy is "recognize that the emperor is awesome (and is actually whatever god you already worship, just fyi), don't consort with xenos (because they want to eat you), don't tolerate mutants (because they want to eat you), and don't worship the ruinous powers (because they will summon daemons, who want to eat you)".

Melissia wrote:

Slaanesh isn't the god of sex. S/he's the god of excess.

Slaanesh is also associated with deviancy in any form. Some might claim that sex for purposes other than procreation is a form of deviancy and that sex with a same sex partner would also fall under that category.

I'd like to ask the OP why this topic was even breached? When I read the first post I thought, "Oh my God, start the flame wars." Luckily that never happened and the discussion has really moved in a good direction, but really who cares what the fictional plastic men do while they're tucked away in their nice foam houses?

augustus5 wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Slaanesh isn't the god of sex. S/he's the god of excess.

Slaanesh is also associated with deviancy in any form.

That's not true, or Slaanesh would also rule over the other gods.

Because BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD is certainly deviant. So is a living person having rotting flesh. Or a sorcerer forcing lots of mutations on others.

Slaanesh is the god of excess, hedonism, the desire for perfection, etc.

Homosexuality has nothing to do with any of these. Being homosexual does not mean that one is doing anything in excess any more than is normal for a person-- being excessive does not mean that one is homosexual. Being homosexual does not mean that one is being hedonistic any more than is normal for a person-- being hedonistic does nto mean that one is being homosexual. Being homosexual does nto mean that one desires for perfection any more than any normal person-- and I think you get my point.

Even by your definition that Slaanesh is the God of excess and not deviancy; some would say that sex for any purpose other than procreation is sex in excess. So a practicing homosexual would be having sex in excess.

augustus5 wrote:some would say that sex for any purpose other than procreation is sex in excess.

This opinion is not that of the Ecclesiarchy.

Melissia wrote:

augustus5 wrote:some would say that sex for any purpose other than procreation is sex in excess.

This opinion is not that of the Ecclesiarchy.

There does appear to be some frowning upon promiscuity, or idealizing chastity at least, though I have never seen it connected to the matter of procreation specifically.

Even chastity isn't really itself valued, but rather, being so dedicated to your job that you are effectively chaste is.

I doubt anyone would care as long as it doesnt transfer over to worship of salaanesh and they do their planetary duties.

While Slaanesh does embody the deviant powers... homosexuality is not considered a deviancy in the Imperium. It's something people do, and that alone does not make them Chaos Cultists or heretics.

Melissia wrote:Even chastity isn't really itself valued, but rather, being so dedicated to your job that you are effectively chaste is.

Yup. And as noted earlier, homosexual attachments can actually be more compatible with dedication to a job. No inherent conflict with pregnancy.

Platuan4th wrote:

chyron wrote:Sex with not even nominal connection to reproduction?

Yes, because that's why teens and college kids are having the sex.

Not because it's, y'know, FUN or an expression of emotional attachment.

This made me think, could the inquisition or whoever see it as a Nurgle related act? This reminded me about our college std rate, 1 in 3. The more people do it, the more it gets passed around.

chyron wrote:Anyway i can't imagine something like "gay pride" event on Imperial worlds without some prometheum-hot reaction from Ecclesiarchy.

That might have more to do with excessive self-expression, something the Ecclesiarchy would frown on no matter your sexual inclination.

And iirc in fluff (in all cases i remember) homosexual orientation was something not shown openly for reasons i think obvious.

Public displays of affection, straight or otherwise, are hardly going to be shown openly in any Imperial Guard regiment. Besides, the authors in this case seem to be going for the "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" method of establishing relationships within any given regiment.

Even Tona Criid and (what's-his-name?) Criid, a couple who became married if I recall Guants Ghosts correctly, didn't show unproffessional affection for one another in public.

If the Imperium doesn't outlaw it, or make it a sort of social no-no, then there is no need for something like a Gay Pride parade. The social environment recognizes it as a relationship between consenting adults, and of no greater consequence than a heterosexual relationship between consenting adults.

There's no need to parade it about or revel in its expression, as there's no repression or social backlash against it (at least so far presented as the norm in most hive-worlds).

I seem to remember that there was an example of this in one of the Last Chancer novels as well given from Kage's perspective of course. If I recall correctly, it wasn't exactly his cup of tea but nor was it specifically forbidden/prohibited/ect.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Public displays of affection, straight or otherwise, are hardly going to be shown openly in any Imperial Guard regiment. Besides, the authors in this case seem to be going for the "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" method of establishing relationships within any given regiment.

The IG policy is probably to publicly frown on such relationships, but privately ignore them. Relationships can be good for people, but can also be the source of lots of problems. Grifon and Magot will get a wink and a nudge so long as their relationship remains a healthy one. But if one of them dies, or if there's a breakup, then things could get very ugly very fast. And it's going to be the responsibility of the officers to keep a handle on the resulting mess.

I don't know about the first three, but I'm pretty sure the Imperium's rule with transsexuals is WYSIWYG.

Problem: Being gayetc. should be heresy in the empire: that means you cant create more tiny-imperial-guard-in-education.

Eumerin wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Public displays of affection, straight or otherwise, are hardly going to be shown openly in any Imperial Guard regiment. Besides, the authors in this case seem to be going for the "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" method of establishing relationships within any given regiment.

The IG policy is probably to publicly frown on such relationships, but privately ignore them. Relationships can be good for people, but can also be the source of lots of problems. Grifon and Magot will get a wink and a nudge so long as their relationship remains a healthy one. But if one of them dies, or if there's a breakup, then things could get very ugly very fast. And it's going to be the responsibility of the officers to keep a handle on the resulting mess.

Not quite related, but in the Caiphas Cain novels it was alluded that his position in the mixed sex regiment meant he ended up running something akin to a nursery as the newborns in the regiment fell under his duty of upholding the regiments health and wellbeing, or at least Amberly Veil alledged this anyway.

DickBandit wrote:I don't know about the first three, but I'm pretty sure the Imperium's rule with transsexuals is WYSIWYG.

You beauty.

thenoobbomb wrote:Problem: Being gayetc. should be heresy in the empire: that means you cant create more tiny-imperial-guard-in-education.

Problem: This has already been addressed in the thread. Twice I think.

Luco wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

chyron wrote:Sex with not even nominal connection to reproduction?

Yes, because that's why teens and college kids are having the sex.

Not because it's, y'know, FUN or an expression of emotional attachment.

This made me think, could the inquisition or whoever see it as a Nurgle related act? This reminded me about our college std rate, 1 in 3. The more people do it, the more it gets passed around.

Highly unlikely. Unless they specifically knew that they were infected and they were having sex for the sole purpose of passing it, they were probably just a victim.

And besides, they could get more people sick with heterosexual sex than they could with homosexual sex, as the majority of the population is pretty much always going to be heterosexual. The many genes which control sexuality, along with the societal factors, ensure this-- most of the genes which are identified as promoting homosexuality (although having them does not mean that you will be homosexual, it's an extremely complex interaction of genes because of the complex nature of the subject, nevermind upbringing and other environmental factors) tend to be recessive, and those that do go homosexual without providing their genepool for children (not all homosexuals do this-- for example, the men who find out they're homosexual after being married to a woman for years, as I said, sexuality is a complicated subject. And this doesn't account for the technology we will have a few years in the future-- the technology is being refined and perfected even now-- to create a means through which lesbians might parent a child with eachothers' genetics) don't contribute to the gene pool.

Yeah, this is not as easy a subject as some people make it out to be.

There's a male gay couple in Ravenor. It's a throwaway one sentence line but there ya go.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:There's a male gay couple in Ravenor. It's a throwaway one sentence line but there ya go.

Citation please.

I don't have it in front of me but it's in the first book when Ravenor is using his witch-sight to snoop on the neighborhood. One of the dozens of scenes he intrudes upon is two guys described as lovers. He doesn't blink an astraly projected eye implying this is not that strange.

Black Library actually has a policy of trying not to have sexuality in any form in its books (especially with the new talent) but Abnett is Abnett and always tries to push the boundries of what BL should be. He was the first to heavily imply rape-murder in a book and then confirmed it 3 years later when BL knows this isn't a guy they need to censor.

Mitchel is similar in that regard.

As many times LGBT has been mentioned in the Ravenor, Commissar Cain, and other 40k novels I got the impression that because of all the toubles that the IOM has to deal with certain issues from our times doesn't matter squat anymore. People who are pskers and mutants have more to worry about than homosexuals...

tigonesskay wrote:As many times LGBT has been mentioned in the Ravenor, Commissar Cain, and other 40k novels I got the impression that because of all the toubles that the IOM has to deal with certain issues from our times doesn't matter squat anymore. People who are pskers and mutants have more to worry about than homosexuals...

Now that's just discrimiating. Who says you can't be all three?

I think people in the imperium may NOT use condoms. Cus that would be just for pleasure. Pleasure=Slaanesh-y=Slaanesh=Chaos=Turning Chaos =heretic. Burn the heretics!

Half the population prolly has no idea what it is\was

thenoobbomb wrote:I think people in the imperium may NOT use condoms. Cus that would be just for pleasure. Pleasure=Slaanesh-y=Slaanesh=Chaos=Turning Chaos =heretic. Burn the heretics!

The Imperial Guard probably provides birth control for its mixed gender regiments to prevent pregnancy which reduces combat effectiveness.

Like everyone has said before, it would depend mostly on the world in question, but it doesn't seem like the greater Imperium cares.

I don't specifically remember the part it happened in Ravenor, but its been a while since I read all of them. I doubt I paid much attention in the first place. I think they have more important things to worry about than what gender some of their population is attracted to, that and its way easier to hate xenos.

thenoobbomb wrote:I think people in the imperium may NOT use condoms. Cus that would be just for pleasure. Pleasure=Slaanesh-y=Slaanesh=Chaos=Turning Chaos =heretic. Burn the heretics!

I doubt the Imperium at large knows much about Slaanesh - and may not even be overly familiar with the name. The Imperium loves to keep its secrets, after all, and letting news circulate that there's a "god of pleasure" is only going to make things worse.

The only large pan-Imperium group that actually cares about whether or not you're just having sex for pleasure is probably the Redemptionists, who are what you get when you combine "Everything fun is bad for you!" and "Kill it with fire!". Even devout Imperial subjects consider them to be dangerously unhinged religious fanatics.

There are plenty of people who do things "just for pleasure" in the Imperium. That's the entire reason amasec exists, or theatre, or museums, or, hell, the arts in general and public/private consumption thereof.

The difference is, Slaanesh, though called the "Prince of Pleasure" really only draws power/influences it when these pleasures are outside the realm of acceptable behavior within the confines of the society of the actor. This is why Eisenhorn often laughs (in his Inquisitorial way) on the various hive-nobles he encounters who only "play" at being heretics. They're not real heretics, they're just bored nobles into sex-games and "fuzzy pict-recorded fake snuff films". These sorts of "false heresies" don't really draw the attention of Slaanesh, because they're too mundane, too tame, too... normal for one such as Slaanesh to be interested. There's no abject depravity involved, or taboo-violating actions, or otherwise just plain weird gak going on to interest a Ruinous Power.

ETA: Going back to a comment earlier in the thread, I believe that any such laws against LGBT citizens is going to be reserved to individual planets, controlled by their Planetary Governor, rather than mandated by the Imperial Creed.

Melissia wrote:The Imperial Guard probably provides birth control for its mixed gender regiments to prevent pregnancy which reduces combat effectiveness.

Even their same gender regiments as was the case in Fifteen Hours, but that drop of supplies could have just as well been an accident.

Psienesis wrote:The difference is, Slaanesh, though called the "Prince of Pleasure" really only draws power/influences it when these pleasures are outside the realm of acceptable behavior within the confines of the society of the actor.

Wrong. See: the entirety of the Eldar race at the fall.

Melkhiordarkblade wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:There's a male gay couple in Ravenor. It's a throwaway one sentence line but there ya go.

Citation please.

Ravenor Omnibus, page 634, from Ravenor Rogue, on the planet Tancred, Ravenor is doing a mind-scan of the entire city. Abnett writes:

On a roof terrace, a young man plays a viol in the sun while his lover, another young man, sits in the shade of an awning and learns lines for his part in a play.

The next sentence is about a woman in another part of that same building, and is totally unrelated, and Ravenor makes no further comment or moral judgements about the young men mentioned above.

ph34r wrote:

Psienesis wrote:The difference is, Slaanesh, though called the "Prince of Pleasure" really only draws power/influences it when these pleasures are outside the realm of acceptable behavior within the confines of the society of the actor.

Wrong. See: the entirety of the Eldar race at the fall.

Which WERE excessive by Eldar standards, they were just too stuck in revelry to realize it.

Homosexuality isn't itself excessive. Nor is having sex for pleasure.

Melissia wrote:

ph34r wrote:

Psienesis wrote:The difference is, Slaanesh, though called the "Prince of Pleasure" really only draws power/influences it when these pleasures are outside the realm of acceptable behavior within the confines of the society of the actor.

Wrong. See: the entirety of the Eldar race at the fall.

Which WERE excessive by Eldar standards, they were just too stuck in revelry to realize it.

No. "Eldar standards" went down the drain along with them.

Your logic is like saying that everyone in modern society is being excessive. By 13th century standards.

(aka, your logic is Terrible (tm))

Not all Eldar were participating in those blood sacrifices, orgies, etc. They may not even have been the majority, although only the minority actually objected enough to bother to escape.

However, that wasn't my position, I was just pointing out that your own objections to it are a bit nonsensical.

Excess is that which is defined by Slaanesh itself. Think about it in terms of drug resistance-- a person uses a recreational drug, and becomes resistant to its effects. So they have to use more and more and more of the drug to get the same high. That's the excess part, and that's how Slaanesh worshippers (and many nobles) also feel about more physical pleasures in 40k.

A couple simply making love to eachother, not trying to reach new heights of pleasure but merely expressing their love for eachother in a physicla manner, isn't going to feed Slaanesh unless they're Eldar due to their unique connection with Slaanesh.

So when Humans are doing it they don't feed Slaanesh, even if relationship is homo or lesbo.

Eldar are feeding him while just doing it.

Then why don't Slaanesh starve to death?

Brother Coa wrote:So when Humans are doing it they don't feed Slaanesh, even if relationship is homo or lesbo.

Eldar are feeding him while just doing it.

Then why don't Slaanesh starve to death?

Because so many people do push it to excess. And it's not just sex that does it. Sex is just the most obvious and titilating thing, so it's what draws the majority of attention. But anyone who feeds their desires to excess is feeding Slaanesh.

Consider Noise Marines. Noise Marines are the marine followers of Slaanesh. Within the fluff, they're not particularly known for their interest in sex despite the fact that they follow Slaanesh. Instead, their downfall is associated with their need to hear more and more exotic sounds. Slaanesh can feed off of certain sexual habits. Slaanesh can also feed off of drug addicts. Slaanesh can feed off of obsessive basement-dwelling hobbyists. Given the chance, people tend toward excess - and when they do, Slaanesh benefits.

Slaanesh has no problem with it

Brother Coa wrote:So when Humans are doing it they don't feed Slaanesh, even if relationship is homo or lesbo.

Eldar are feeding him while just doing it.

Then why don't Slaanesh starve to death?

Uh, what? Why would that stop him/her/it?

The overwhelming majority of hte populace is heterosexual, if Slaanesh only fed off of homosexuals he/she/it WOULD starve.

No, Slaanesh feeds off of EXCESS. Not homosexuality.

If I recall correctly there is a part in the Gaunt's Ghost series where an inquisitor hints at a homosexual relationship between Gaunt and his young aide Milo as she is trying to determine why Gaunt saved Milo from Tanith. She does not imply that there would be any punishment in such an act but Gaunt I believe does slap her at the insult, probably due to the age difference and the idea that he would use him for his own personal pleasure.

Eumerin wrote:I doubt the Imperium at large knows much about Slaanesh - and may not even be overly familiar with the name. The Imperium loves to keep its secrets, after all, and letting news circulate that there's a "god of pleasure" is only going to make things worse.

The names and natures of the ruinous powers are apparently proscribed, though the character of "deviant cultists" or somesuch are also apparently common dramatic villains, just without any of the specific details that would actually relate to the ruinous powers themselves.

Psienesis wrote:The difference is, Slaanesh, though called the "Prince of Pleasure" really only draws power/influences it when these pleasures are outside the realm of acceptable behavior within the confines of the society of the actor.

Last I heard, Slaanesh is technically "fed" by any pleasure, whether it's pride in a job well done, or a drug-fueled sadomasochistic orgy. Slaanesh wasn't formed because a lot of people were deviating from their social norms, but because trillions of psyker souls were being dumped into the warp in a state of either unimaginable agony or rapture, and eventually collapsed into a single being (which is apparently how gods are formed, as both the Emperor and Slaanesh were created that way).

This is why Eisenhorn often laughs (in his Inquisitorial way) on the various hive-nobles he encounters who only "play" at being heretics. They're not real heretics, they're just bored nobles into sex-games and "fuzzy pict-recorded fake snuff films". These sorts of "false heresies" don't really draw the attention of Slaanesh, because they're too mundane, too tame, too... normal for one such as Slaanesh to be interested. There's no abject depravity involved, or taboo-violating actions, or otherwise just plain weird gak going on to interest a Ruinous Power.

It's more there's no specific ritual connection. Chaos rituals are sorcery, not just orgies and/or murder and/or chanting gibberish (although they frequently involve at least two of the above), so fake cultists just making it up as they go along wouldn't do anything more than, well, Chaotes do in real life.

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:So when Humans are doing it they don't feed Slaanesh, even if relationship is homo or lesbo.

Eldar are feeding him while just doing it.

Then why don't Slaanesh starve to death?

Uh, what? Why would that stop him/her/it?

The overwhelming majority of hte populace is heterosexual, if Slaanesh only fed off of homosexuals he/she/it WOULD starve.

No, Slaanesh feeds off of EXCESS. Not homosexuality.

You got it wrong...

I meant this: is he feeding from Human excess to or just Eldar? Since someone have mentioned that Humans feed Slaanesh less then Eldar because of his unique bond with them...

Humans affect The Immaterium less than Eldar overall.

Brother Coa wrote:I meant this: is he feeding from Human excess to or just Eldar? Since someone have mentioned that Humans feed Slaanesh less then Eldar because of his unique bond with them...

Humans on an individual basis typically feed Slaanesh less than eldar do because eldar experience things at a much more heightened level than humans do. This also makes it easier for a given eldar to get locked into an obsessive path as the eldar in question becomes lost in the sensations of whatever it is that they're doing.

The Dark Eldar embrace it - usually by giving free reign to the most degenerate aspects of their personality. As a result, Slaanesh is constantly eating away at their souls. The Craftworld Eldar dip into it, and the Path system is an attempt to allow a given eldar to dabble in different life experiences without losing the ability to step back out into his or her own self. The Exarchs use the virtues of hard work and a struggle to survive as a barrier against losing oneself. And how the Harlequins deal with it is as yet unknown, though there's lots of seemingly erroneous speculation on the subject floating around the internet.

Well, there's gay and then there's gay. I don't think the Empire (or Slaanesh) gives a crap about your average homosexual couple who wakes up in the morning, has a muffin with some cereal, goes to work, comes back home, and maybe has some gay sex under the sheets in private. I think they would be more concerned if said gay couple were drawing eight-pointed arrows with their own semen and blood in the town square while wearing tight leather with spikes on the inside and outside, while loudly proclaiming the coming of the Fabulous Prince.

That's almost every follower of Slaanesh... and, really, in this situation, the homosexuality isn't the crime, it's the invocation of the Ruinous Powers and the display of profane symbols.

So by some accounts on here my soul is damed and I'm going to the realm of Slaanesh becouse I'm alittle odd? Oh well, I had better stock up on KY jelly then

Only if you wear leather.

Let me try to end all this bickering.


Unsuitable images removed. That was a wee bit strong for here I'm afraid.

Reds8n.

NSFW man... though I did get a chuckle out of it, but would have been rather annoyed if that had popped up on my screen at work. If Dakka wasn't blocked on the .mil system

But really unless someone is doing whatever it is to excess, really don't see the pervy prince getting much out of it, and it could be anything to excess not just limited to sex. Still going with the Imperium doesn't care, certain planets may, and it's no more or less going to impact Slaanesh that straight couples would.

It's mentioned in 1000 Sons. One of the female remembrancers jokes openly about her sexual preferences towards women with 2 other remembrancers.

Sckitzo wrote:NSFW man... though I did get a chuckle out of it, but would have been rather annoyed if that had popped up on my screen at work. If Dakka wasn't blocked on the .mil system

Odd, must be a DoD or DoA policy that Dakka's blocked with, not a Government wide ban; I can and do access Dakka at my work. But only during my breaks of course...

Funny story, I was on Dakka at work when that image was still up. I'm glad that no one I worked with that would've cared was there to make an issue of it.

Has there ever been any reference to an openly homosexual Inquisitor or High Lord of Terra? If so, I think that would make it quite clear about the IoM's policy on the matter.

I think it is ok in the imperium, iirc it was mentioned in horus rising when Karkasy was talking to one of the female rememrencers (she never does answer though). I have allways wondered this so I would kow if i would be ok in the 41st milenium.

Things like this are deffinatly avoided by gw to avoid contraversy.

I would think that maybe if someone has a personal grudge against a homosexual person they might start spreading rumors, and everyone here knows that rumors change as they travel from person to person.

"I heard so and so has gay sex."

turns to

"I heard so and so has drug filled, skin filleting orgies in honor of Slaanesh."

Sure, that could happen, and even the original rumor might be damaging in certain social circles (planetary nobles expected to breed to carry on the family name and so forth) while the latter will, eventually, get the Inquisition involved, and when the rumors are found to be untrue, that actually works in the favor of the accused house ("Were the rumors really untrue, or is House Hotpants so badass they were able to trick the Inquisition?!" Gasping, fainting and monocles popping out to fall into fishbowls of amasec abound).

All of that aside, that doesn't establish homosexuality as a crime in the Imperium, and I think this thread has pretty well established that, according to many sources within the fluff-canon, that it isn't.

Psienesis wrote:Sure, that could happen, and even the original rumor might be damaging in certain social circles (planetary nobles expected to breed to carry on the family name and so forth) while the latter will, eventually, get the Inquisition involved, and when the rumors are found to be untrue, that actually works in the favor of the accused house ("Were the rumors really untrue, or is House Hotpants so badass they were able to trick the Inquisition?!" Gasping, fainting and monocles popping out to fall into fishbowls of amasec abound).

All of that aside, that doesn't establish homosexuality as a crime in the Imperium, and I think this thread has pretty well established that, according to many sources within the fluff-canon, that it isn't.

It is deinitely not a crime, however thee are so many stars with so many imperial worlds you cant ever know how many of THEM have laws agains it or not.

Oh, sure, any planet could establish a local ordinance against it, or against pretty much anything else as well. I'm sure, on some worlds, there are even aspects of the Imperial Cult that feature the Imperial version of "sacred whores" and such that view sexual congress as an act of devotion to the God-Emperor, just as some worlds are far more restrictive about any sexual contact of any kind.

Mechanicum cultist would be confused, "how does the machine work with two male ends?"

Wouldn't slaanesh prefer girls and guys together? Slaanesh is half male and half female so if you think about it Slaanesh would prefer straight people. Yay I am not helping Slaanesh as much as others

Slaanesh would actually prefer 2 girls, 2 guys, 1 cup, a carnifex, assorted Jokero, a couple of Eldar and a isotropic fuel rod.

Psienesis wrote:Slaanesh would actually prefer 2 girls, 2 guys, 1 cup, a carnifex, assorted Jokero, a couple of Eldar and a isotropic fuel rod.

Now thats just wrong...the mental image...my mind has been befouled!!!

Ribon Fox wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Slaanesh would actually prefer 2 girls, 2 guys, 1 cup, a carnifex, assorted Jokero, a couple of Eldar and a isotropic fuel rod.

Now thats just wrong...the mental image...my mind has been befouled!!!

Id quite like to see that crazy american woman in one of the "response" films that went around, upon seeing that video.

Also theres not nearly enough talk of power fists........

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Sure, that could happen, and even the original rumor might be damaging in certain social circles (planetary nobles expected to breed to carry on the family name and so forth) while the latter will, eventually, get the Inquisition involved, and when the rumors are found to be untrue, that actually works in the favor of the accused house ("Were the rumors really untrue, or is House Hotpants so badass they were able to trick the Inquisition?!" Gasping, fainting and monocles popping out to fall into fishbowls of amasec abound).

All of that aside, that doesn't establish homosexuality as a crime in the Imperium, and I think this thread has pretty well established that, according to many sources within the fluff-canon, that it isn't.

It is deinitely not a crime, however thee are so many stars with so many imperial worlds you cant ever know how many of THEM have laws agains it or not.

Based on the fact that we haven't actually SEEN any of said laws in the lore (even on the most repressive planets), I'd say they're probably actually a minority.

I imagine it would depend which world you live on, some would be more ok than others. This can be seen on our planet as it is. I am fine lining here in leictershire but in newcastle it is not so friendly. And we are on this is on the smae planet ! So I imagine that it all depeds where you live, I imagine Ultmar is the most accepting place.

Given how much stuff the Imperium as a whole has gone through in the many thousands of years since its creation, with xeno raids, Chaos incursions, civil wars, religious wars, economic collapses, terrorist attacks on massive scales and everything else... as far as the average member of society is concerned, who you choose to sleep with and what the color of your skin is (within human norm allowances) is probably very, very, very low on the list of "Things to Worry About".

Hello everyone, I'm back after my long hiatus.

Man, some of you posters don't really read the fluff very well. You just call the Imperium as "Catholic Space Nazi's" and then your satisfied. The Imperium as an organization is not sexist. It has women in almost every branch of the Imperium except for the Space Marines like Female IG, Inquisitors, not-confirmed but possible High lord of Terra. Hell, the only reason that the Imperium prefers all male and all female regiments instead of mixed is for pragmatic reasons of preventing fraternization and babies. What do you think all those female regiments are doing with their free time when on the Imperial navy ships on transit to the next combat zone? they are probably screwing each other and the naval crew and yet you don't read about them getting purged. The Imperium doesn't discriminates on LGBT's, maybe the individual person or a worlds culture does but not the Imperium itself, it hates mutants, chaos worshipers and aliens.

Novels have shown LGBT's, as posted by others, and that no human in the Imperium cares or are even feeling uncomfortable around LGBT's. The Imperium is quite egalitarian in that regard. As long as you are a human and don't worship chaos and even if you don't worship the Emperor - the Imperium will bring you around to believing and its not always by threats- but can just pay lip service. The Imperium will not bother you.

So people read the fluff instead of just calling the Imperium as sexist or homophobic.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:Has there ever been any reference to an openly heterosexual Inquisitor or High Lord of Terra? If so, I think that would make it quite clear about the IoM's policy on the matter.

Well?
If being homosexual wasn't frowned on or socially unnacceptable, why would anyone need to be 'open' about defying the social norms when the social norms aren't concerned with said action?

Psienesis wrote:Slaanesh would actually prefer 2 girls, 2 guys, 1 cup, a carnifex, assorted Jokero, a couple of Eldar and a isotropic fuel rod.

Sigged.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Hello everyone, I'm back after my long hiatus.

Man, some of you posters don't really read the fluff very well. You just call the Imperium as "Catholic Space Nazi's" and then your satisfied. The Imperium as an organization is not sexist. It has women in almost every branch of the Imperium except for the Space Marines like Female IG, Inquisitors, not-confirmed but possible High lord of Terra. Hell, the only reason that the Imperium prefers all male and all female regiments instead of mixed is for pragmatic reasons of preventing fraternization and babies. What do you think all those female regiments are doing with their free time when on the Imperial navy ships on transit to the next combat zone? they are probably screwing each other and the naval crew and yet you don't read about them getting purged. The Imperium doesn't discriminates on LGBT's, maybe the individual person or a worlds culture does but not the Imperium itself, it hates mutants, chaos worshipers and aliens.

Novels have shown LGBT's, as posted by others, and that no human in the Imperium cares or are even feeling uncomfortable around LGBT's. The Imperium is quite egalitarian in that regard. As long as you are a human and don't worship chaos and even if you don't worship the Emperor - the Imperium will bring you around to believing and its not always by threats- but can just pay lip service. The Imperium will not bother you.

So people read the fluff instead of just calling the Imperium as sexist or homophobic.

Did you actually read the thread? It's basically three and a half pages of what you just said, with the occasional comment on procreation possibly being valued...

Also, to be pedantic, relationships between the Guard, Navy, and Commissariat are expressly prohibited, as are those that cross significant rank differences.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Did you actually read the thread? It's basically three and a half pages of what you just said, with the occasional comment on procreation possibly being valued...

Also, to be pedantic, relationships between the Guard, Navy, and Commissariat are expressly prohibited, as are those that cross significant rank differences.

I made my post in response to people who still even after reading this thread state that the Imperium hates LGBT's because its "Catholic Space Nazi's". They don't read fluff or just ignore it and state their opinion that the Imperium hates LGBT's because the Imperium is Nazi's. I agree with them in the fact the Imperium is Nazi-like but unlike the Nazi's of WW2, the Imperium is mostly right in their xenophobia. As the Nazi's of real life were just spouting bullcr*p reasons and scapegoating for their slaughter whereas the Imperium doesn't scapegoat against anyone. What they say about Chaos is true, about mutants is 50% true and 50% false while aliens is 80% true and 20% or 10% false.

As for your statement about prohibitions against such relations doesn't mean those relations don't exist. Look at the Ciaphas Cain books, their are two lesbians who are of different ranks and Cain who knows its against regulations because of the rank difference but only cares because it might cause problems on the battlefield and no other reasons. Once he knew it wouldn't cause problems he basically ignores them.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:Has there ever been any reference to an openly heterosexual Inquisitor or High Lord of Terra? If so, I think that would make it quite clear about the IoM's policy on the matter.

Well?
If being homosexual wasn't frowned on or socially unnacceptable, why would anyone need to be 'open' about defying the social norms when the social norms aren't concerned with said action?

I'll admit, poor choice of words on my part. What I had meant to say was if their were any confirmed or acknowledged homosexual Inquisitors or High Lords of Terra.

And on reading what you quoted, did I really say heterosexual in my post? I totally meant homosexual.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Did you actually read the thread? It's basically three and a half pages of what you just said, with the occasional comment on procreation possibly being valued...

Also, to be pedantic, relationships between the Guard, Navy, and Commissariat are expressly prohibited, as are those that cross significant rank differences.

I made my post in response to people who still even after reading this thread state that the Imperium hates LGBT's because its "Catholic Space Nazi's". They don't read fluff or just ignore it and state their opinion that the Imperium hates LGBT's because the Imperium is Nazi's. I agree with them in the fact the Imperium is Nazi-like but unlike the Nazi's of WW2, the Imperium is mostly right in their xenophobia. As the Nazi's of real life were just spouting bullcr*p reasons and scapegoating for their slaughter whereas the Imperium doesn't scapegoat against anyone. What they say about Chaos is true, about mutants is 50% true and 50% false while aliens is 80% true and 20% or 10% false.

As for your statement about prohibitions against such relations doesn't mean those relations don't exist. Look at the Ciaphas Cain books, their are two lesbians who are of different ranks and Cain who knows its against regulations because of the rank difference but only cares because it might cause problems on the battlefield and no other reasons. Once he knew it wouldn't cause problems he basically ignores them.

No one has gone on about Space Nazi's and LGBT. You're responding to arguments that aren't there.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:Has there ever been any reference to an openly heterosexual Inquisitor or High Lord of Terra? If so, I think that would make it quite clear about the IoM's policy on the matter.

Well?
If being homosexual wasn't frowned on or socially unnacceptable, why would anyone need to be 'open' about defying the social norms when the social norms aren't concerned with said action?

I'll admit, poor choice of words on my part. What I had meant to say was if their were any confirmed or acknowledged homosexual Inquisitors or High Lords of Terra.

And on reading what you quoted, did I really say heterosexual in my post? I totally meant homosexual.

No that was me demonstrating a point.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
No that was me demonstrating a point.

Fair enough.

This may just be me here, but I get a definite bisexual vibe from Amberly Vail(sp?), the female Inquisitor that provided the comments in Commissar Cain's memoirs. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:
No that was me demonstrating a point.

Fair enough.

This may just be me here, but I get a definite bisexual vibe from Amberly Vail(sp?), the female Inquisitor that provided the comments in Commissar Cain's memoirs. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

I didn't really, I put that down to her possible jealousy of Cain's activities with other women.

That there isn't any evidence of such activity being frowned upon, even when explicitly mentioned in the fluff, implies that it's widely accepted in the Imperium. When you've got major issues like the Heretic, the Mutant and the Xeno to worry about then people's sexual orientation tends to be a non-factor.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:

Sckitzo wrote:NSFW man... though I did get a chuckle out of it, but would have been rather annoyed if that had popped up on my screen at work. If Dakka wasn't blocked on the .mil system

Odd, must be a DoD or DoA policy that Dakka's blocked with, not a Government wide ban; I can and do access Dakka at my work. But only during my breaks of course...

Funny story, I was on Dakka at work when that image was still up. I'm glad that no one I worked with that would've cared was there to make an issue of it.

Has there ever been any reference to an openly homosexual Inquisitor or High Lord of Terra? If so, I think that would make it quite clear about the IoM's policy on the matter.

May just be the base I'm at also.

And saying that the female regiments are doing nothing but laying on their back while in transit is pretty far off the mark. Yes, people will screw for various reasons that would apply (boredom, fun, companionship) but that is like saying in todays current military that everytime there is a break people are behind a bunker like rabbits. It does happen, but even the folks that don't have someone back home won't partake for a variety of reasons, mission impact, morale, General Orders, can't get a date...

Emperors Faithful wrote:No one has gone on about Space Nazi's and LGBT. You're responding to arguments that aren't there.

Their is a thread on this site that has a poster say that the Imperium is basically "Catholic Space Nazi's" so it must be sexist and homophobic. For example, this poster from the first page of this thread -

Brother SRM wrote:Considering that the Imperial cult is heavily based on medieval Christian society, I wouldn't be terribly optimistic about it. GW avoids it (aside from old jokes like the Dark Angels' "shameful secret" that got retconned anyway) since it isn't really something that needs to be brought up, and can invoke too much controversy.

Need I say more?

Sckitzo wrote:May just be the base I'm at also.

And saying that the female regiments are doing nothing but laying on their back while in transit is pretty far off the mark. Yes, people will screw for various reasons that would apply (boredom, fun, companionship) but that is like saying in today's current military that every time there is a break people are behind a bunker like rabbits. It does happen, but even the folks that don't have someone back home won't partake for a variety of reasons, mission impact, morale, General Orders, can't get a date...

I didn't mean to say that female IG are doing nothing but having sex. What I meant was that when they had free time on a starship with nothing to do. They do "things" with their same-sex partner or some of the ships crewman that find their fancy, but this doesn't mean that all of them do it. They could be playing card games, drinking alcohol or whatever. And if the regiment is mixed, they might be taking care of the newly born babies with their bf's.

As far as I can recall, the Imperium's official stance is that they don't care what two(or more) consenting adults choose to do in their own CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:No one has gone on about Space Nazi's and LGBT. You're responding to arguments that aren't there.

Their is a thread on this site that has a poster say that the Imperium is basically "Catholic Space Nazi's" so it must be sexist and homophobic. For example, this poster from the first page of this thread -

Brother SRM wrote:Considering that the Imperial cult is heavily based on medieval Christian society, I wouldn't be terribly optimistic about it. GW avoids it (aside from old jokes like the Dark Angels' "shameful secret" that got retconned anyway) since it isn't really something that needs to be brought up, and can invoke too much controversy.

Need I say more?

Yes you do. You need to respond to particular arguments rather than make blanket statements.

The overwhelming majority of posters in this thread agree with what Monster Rain has said, CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT or no. The few dissenting posters, and even then they don't confidently assert the Imperiam is homophobic, have already been adressed. The issue of Slaaneshi involvement was more prevalent that any discussion of Catholic Space Nazis. Your blanket 'revelation' contributed exactly zero to this thread, and went off on a tangent of self-justification. Reading the thread, as opposed to just the first post, generally avoids this.

Melissia wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Sure, that could happen, and even the original rumor might be damaging in certain social circles (planetary nobles expected to breed to carry on the family name and so forth) while the latter will, eventually, get the Inquisition involved, and when the rumors are found to be untrue, that actually works in the favor of the accused house ("Were the rumors really untrue, or is House Hotpants so badass they were able to trick the Inquisition?!" Gasping, fainting and monocles popping out to fall into fishbowls of amasec abound).

All of that aside, that doesn't establish homosexuality as a crime in the Imperium, and I think this thread has pretty well established that, according to many sources within the fluff-canon, that it isn't.

It is deinitely not a crime, however thee are so many stars with so many imperial worlds you cant ever know how many of THEM have laws agains it or not.

Based on the fact that we haven't actually SEEN any of said laws in the lore (even on the most repressive planets), I'd say they're probably actually a minority.

Yes they would most definitely be the minority, I am just viewing it as; say 1/1000 planets outlaw it. It would probably happen on less densely populated worlds where the law actually has the time and resources to care about something so insignificant. However, I in no way believe even the smallest hive world would care, due to the immense population.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:Yes they would most definitely be the minority, I am just viewing it as; say 1/1000 planets outlaw it. It would probably happen on less densely populated worlds where the law actually has the time and resources to care about something so insignificant. However, I in no way believe even the smallest hive world would care, due to the immense population.

I would imagine it would tend to reflect more on the kind of planet than a random number. For example, feudal planets (going off on our own history) would tend to be intolerant of it. It would be easy for a primitive planet's mutants to be explained away as the result of 'unnatural contact' between those of the same sex. I mean, if we've got planets where things like gender are an issue then homosexuality is going to be an issue on a great deal of planets as well.

The important thing here, as I think we agree, the Imperium doesn't give a toss one way or another, and may even be against discrimination if it somehow hampered effectiveness. For example tensions between a homophobic regiment and the Canerussan 404th.

I would hope the Imperium would have bigger things to worry about than who people are doinking.

Or shpadoinking for that matter.

Melissia wrote:Or shpadoinking for that matter.

That too.