I have to say that the artwork of the plastic miniatures themselves is poor changed pathetic to poor as it was unintentionally flamey
It is tedious to look at ,
immature
repetitive
uninspiring
and when standing together as a troop on the board, so often looks like a mangled blob of smarty colored spaghetti
or in less words P..s Poor plagiarism
Exceptions to my above description are few and far between while ordinarily i would let such matters pass me by , i feel the table top gaming community has been fed 20 years of sniveling pap by GW splastic designers .....why do i have a such feeling of utter contempt for the bulk of their efforts ? ....Simple , untold man years of wasted human endeavor has been put into in creating them.
what a waste of time and effort !
Now i know that many of you may have your favorites , some might even be a fan of their obscure, plethoric mono cultural decorative style....but that is not the point & not MY point
In general they lack all credibility & any sense of anesthetic beauty.
The greater sin is all this has been done on a planet which has such an exquisite natural world to draw upon , in addition we have a good selection from the last 650 million years as part of our heritage. If that was not enough inspirational material to get an artist going , then remember we also have 1000s of years of cultural history from dozens of civilizations. Last but not least a stupendous catalog of scince fiction , horror and fantasy in film and print that if stacked end to end would stretch beyond the moons of Jupiter.
What kind of feeble, cretinous and insular minds can be surrounded by such beauty and inspiration and yet still be ignorant of what please the human eye
to the artists responsible for the plastic " shame on you, shame on you and shame on you again ....your folly knows few bounds "
Predator Turret copyright of the MOD >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpion_tank >> blatant copy not original in any way >> GW version out of proportion to the chassis it now sits on
Rhino copyright of the MOD >> http://miliblog.co.uk/?p=548 >> blatant copy not original in any way , right down to the triple smoke launchers ...to be fair GW didn't this screw copy up
now let me see if i have this right....the year is 40kAD and the space marines get a WW1 tank , a ww2 APC , and tank made by combining a ww2 apc with a coldwar scouttank
= GW's premier team the space marines ...so we have 3 vehicles of with sloping angles , [ no doubt the weak and feeble reason for lumping them together ] ...these vehicles are dissonant in their proportions both of themselves and to each other. Instantly recognizable vehicle Icons that where blatantly stolen from three well known & historically distinct era's.
Plagiarism = 100% ( outright theft of intellectual copyright )
Bandwagon = 100% ( taken what has already been proven by history to be iconic )
Shoehorning = 100% ( wearing someone else ill fitting clothes )
Vision = 0% ( blending of ingredients )
Creativity 0% ( not a single drop as far as i can see)
i rest my Example case : ref SM vehicles ...i could write a whole book on the art of plagiarism , but that is just one of many ills that GW plastic miniatures suffer from. Yes the plastic is sculpted and formed with technical proficiency. But what an utter waste of manufacturing capability when it is not matched up with the creativity of artists with soul, spirit & a strong cohesive style.
I read your post but my eyes glazed over and I started frothing at the mouth. Your second message was edited 17 times as of this writing, holy hell. I think you're saying you find 40k's overall aesthetic uninspired? Your formatting is bonkers and your grammar leaves a lot to be desired.
yes there is some good stuff in the range " but at least half " the miniatures fall into one or more of these traps. A small % of dull miniatures that miss the mark is to be expected of any range. GW40k collection suffers badly.
Ive given you the example of the SM tanks now lets look at the Tyranids
The B monster movie award goes to, the red terror , death leaper
The Blobomatic award goes too , Biovore & freinds , ripper swarm , Zoanthrop
the rest of the Tyranid range suffers from flailing arms n legs syndrome. A single fifure in isolation held up to the eye may scrape a pass. From more than a foot away a group of them merges into eye spaghetti. In some case one has too look twice to distinguish one unit form the other. These are not fearsome aliens that keep you awake at night. They are more akin to a swarm of wasps with octopus claws. Some of them dont even look as if they can stand on their own legs let alone move at a threatening pace.
Take note that Giger's alien was an ambush predator not a battle field soldier , and in Aliens 3 it took a more cheetah like form ( it too lost credibility when it decided to run on the ceiling and defied the laws of physics and biology) In short the Tyranid forms and function flout common sense. Fantasy can be anything you like. But only becomes credible when it is in keeping with what could be. Form and function are the wise mans guide...if it looks stupid , walks stupid it probably is stupid. This is why the bulk of the Tyranid army literally falls flat on its face for me...but then again ive never worked in B movies.
swuk wrote:I have to say that the artwork of the plastic miniatures themselves is pathetic
Give an example.
and when standing together as a troop on the board, so often looks like a mangled blob of smarty colored spaghetti
Are you still talking about the artwork or something else?
The greater sin is all this has been done on a planet which has such an exquisite natural world to draw upon , in addition we have a good selection from the last 650 million years as part of our heritage.
What do you mean, do you want dinosaurs in the artwork?
What kind of feeble, cretinous and insular minds can be surrounded by such beauty and inspiration and yet still be ignorant of what please the human eye
Hard to say when I have no idea what you are on about.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh hang on, by "artwork" do you mean artistic representation?
Were you trying to gain something from this topic? Was your goal to round up supporters?
I'm taking it "swuk" that you have also never heard of conversions? Back in the old day when GW actually reccomended it and gave tips to help accomplish it. Or are you just not creative enough or "Uninspiring" enough to be able to create something unique of your own?
If GW was a new company they could be forgiven. After 20 years they could have refined their miniatures to perfection.
Im well aware of the modding potential , and that high fantasy pushes past the limits of common sense and good taste. Even within the remit of high fantasy there is much scope for greater cohesion , differentiation and clarity.
This is not a 40k sucks cos i say so rant. But its a constructive criticism with examples. Im not here to win friends or gain enemies , lol.
Im am here to point out that if GW made the effort everyone would be better off and that much prouder and that much more encouraged to commit to the hobby.
It is important to realize the heavily overdecorated miniatures may attract 1 fellow , but they will repel many more with their vulgarity.
The current spread of 40k miniatures is tipped heavily toward the vulgar. A more bell shaped curve would attract a large audience & encourage the to stay.
While one can expect greater artistic license with the fantasy series , one would expect a little more restraint & true to life realism with armies and a story based in a technologically advanced future. In short GW has overcooked the high fantasy aspect of the 40k series , to the extent that the cake has been burnt.
swuk wrote:But its a constructive criticism with examples.
I don't think that means what you think it means.
But keep going man - don't let us stop you. This is the funniest thread I've read in weeks, and after all the crap GW's been pulling lately we need a little laughter.
Well space hulk came out in what 1980 something, before I was born, wherein toy story came out in 94 so buzz is more of a clone, as far as not being famous remember I really doubt 1 in 1000 have heard of Warhammer 40k. And also they are deliberately going for historical parallels.
I will give examples of this:
Space Marines are Knights
Imperial Guard is the Red Army
Tau represent Rome.
Orks are a stereotypical barbarian horde.
Immortal Emperor=/= the ideology of Pharoahs
Horus could easily be Mordred from Arthurian mythos
Chaos elements are the downfall of empires (Bloodlust, Disease, Decadence)
End list.
Now the colors draw an inspiration of Militaries, from 1700s European soldiers(look at all the red/blue) to now with US Army using ACUs fairly universally.
Happily, small sized compared to every other threat around them, superior tactics at the time, use of auxillaries, and superior equipment, willingness to use diplomacy(remember much of Gaul fell to diplomacy not just use of the sword)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Obviously I mean preJulian Rome.
Predator Turret copyright of the MOD >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpion_tank >> blatant copy not original in any way >> GW version out of proportion to the chassis it now sits on
Rhino copyright of the MOD >> http://miliblog.co.uk/?p=548 >> blatant copy not original in any way , right down to the triple smoke launchers ...to be fair GW didn't this screw copy up
You do realize there is a difference between directly copying something and using similar design elements.
swuk wrote:I have to say that the artwork of the plastic miniatures themselves is pathetic
I got a bit confused at this bit, do you mean the aesthetic appeal of the plastic minis themselves? or the art that inspired it?
I think they look real cool, so do many of the immature children who wonder into the stores, hell even mature men who stroll into the store are amazed at how cool they are.
GW would certainly not be in business for 20 years as THE war gaming company if all the minis are truly pathetic.
As was said in the very first post, obvious troll is obvious
Immature.....most of us are probably adults playing with plastic soldiers, comes with the territory(which I am personally fine with)
Repetitive....welcome to military genre in general
Uninspiring.....Both welcome to the military, and they are not trying to be omg unique.
Predator Turret copyright of the MOD >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpion_tank >> blatant copy not original in any way >> GW version out of proportion to the chassis it now sits on
Rhino copyright of the MOD >> http://miliblog.co.uk/?p=548 >> blatant copy not original in any way , right down to the triple smoke launchers ...to be fair GW didn't this screw copy up
You do realize there is a difference between directly copying something and using similar design elements.
Yes but if you look GW efforts are near identical to the real steel. that steel comes with history. History completely unrelated to wh40k or anything one might expect to be associated with an army of space marines fighting in the year 40,000 AD
The ww1 tank is classed as steampunk, like HGwells time machine or the Nautilus in 20,000 leagues under the sea. They are totally out of place with jetpacks. The space marine bikes look as if they come of a beech buggy or even worse , the latest craze for ultra fat wheels on shows like "bling my wheels" . Take the space marine chain sword, that is 100% steam punk / mad max at odds with the blues and reds of stock marine colors.
You see , everything is fighting each other stylistically. A steam punk side would be cool to have , but a chrome flying saucer would look out of place in a steam punk army.
swuk wrote:
Yes but if you look GW efforts are near identical to the real steel.
No they are not Near Identical, they are no where near near identical. At a glance they may look alike, but you will find that there are many design differences between the 40k vehicles and their inspirational counterparts.
Now if you want Near Identical take a look at the Catachan, Tallarn raiders, or Valhallan Ice Warriors IG regiments. Catachan dress darn near spot on for a Vietnam era US marine serving in combat during mid to late vietnam in addition to the Rambo movies, Tallarn have an uncanning resemblence to taliban soldiers during the gulf war, and Valhallans are almost spot on for ww2 era Russian soldiers.
A Rhino is not near identical to an M113 apc.
A Land Raider is not near identical to a brittish mk 5 ww1 tank.
The only one that is even close is the predator turret.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Toastedandy wrote:
Lord Harrab wrote:
Wardragoon wrote:
Lord Harrab wrote:I find his use of BOLD
and
Strange sentence formating Inspiring!
....I understand his sentence formatting, HE IS WILLIAM-FETHING-SHATNER (seriously read it in captain Kirks voice and you will see what I mean)
Firstly I would like to say I am very sad you are British.
Secondly:
swuk wrote:The ww1 tank is classed as steampunk
On which planet is this? There are certainly steampunk tanks out there, however the original WW1 tank is not steampunk, because shockingly, it does not use steam power and lacks many other of the design elements "traditionally" associated with steampunk.
like HGwells time machine or the Nautilus in 20,000 leagues under the sea. They are totally out of place with jetpacks.
I'm afraid you've got me there, I don't think I've ever seen jetpacks in steampunk before. But then I don't recall seeing too much steampunk in 40K, so I guess we are OK.
The space marine bikes look as if they come of a beech buggy or even worse , the latest craze for ultra fat wheels on shows like "bling my wheels"
Well, SM bikes are from a time before "pimp my ride" so I guess you could say they are trend setters! However, the entire point of SM bikes is that they can be used on any kind of terrain, so need big wheels to prevent them from bogging down
Take the space marine chain sword, that is 100% steam punk / mad max at odds with the blues and reds of stock marine colors.
Yes, because miniature fusion power plant/petrol engine/battery power pack is steampunk... Though I am not entirely certain what colour it is makes much of a difference...
You see , everything is fighting each other stylistically. A steam punk side would be cool to have
Not really, steampunk doesn't fit into the 40K universe
but a chrome flying saucer would look out of place in a steam punk army.
Kilkrazy wrote:If you disagree with the original premise please argue that, not the posting style.
*Cringes at undoubted modquisition smiting for this comment* But Kil....he is William Shatner someone has to point out the celeb in the crowd, all jack assery (note I am reffering to the horse-donkey hybrid)aside I think the fact that GW hasnt really claimed to be original buys them alot of leeway imo, as is the fact this is a game with overpriced plastic soldiers, so its hard to take seriously.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Besides who would mind being reffered to as the most identifiable star in the scifi genre, with the possible exception to sigourny weaver
Kilkrazy wrote:If you disagree with the original premise please argue that, not the posting style.
No, no, no, no, no.
None of us are saying "Your posting style is silly, therefore your points are invalid". All we're saying is "Your posting style is silly". We're making fun of him, because quite frankly taking anything he's saying seriously is impossible.
You know I have to give mods some credit for having some sense of humor, otherwise we would be toasted so baddly by them by now (yes I just pulled a major grammar no-no, like the double negative just now)
Wardragoon wrote:Besides who would mind being reffered to as the most identifiable star in the scifi genre, with the possible exception to sigourny weaver
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Sigourney Weaver would object to being referred to as William Shatner...
swuk wrote:
In general they lack all credibility & any sense of anesthetic beauty.
Yes, they certainly lack the beauty of morphine, don't they?
The greater sin is all this has been done on a planet which has such an exquisite natural world to draw upon , in addition we have a good selection from the last 650 million years as part of our heritage.
Ultramarines look like Space Romans, and no army in the world designs it's fighting units based on natural creatures, except for camouflage. You can't convince me a Challenger-II is meant to look like a beetle.
Sorry I thought the OP was referring to the artwork as in illustrations for packaging/marketing
Actually I tend to agree regarding SM's.
While not bad, they are not entirely to my tastes, certainly not the Star Wars Stormtroopers with flares look.
But to be fair some of the more flavoursome SM's are good imho I also love the Puppet Wars back packs and steam helms.
The SM's can be altered with a scalpel and aftermarkets/GS if not entirely to taste.
But if everyone else loves the models that is all to the good too.
Swuk, why are you on this forum? Why are you on any wargaming forum? Why are you complaining about something which you obviously know alot about and so must have collected alot of?
I try really hard to not be a d-bag on these forums. I try and preface my opinion with a qualifier showing that it is only an opinion and others may disagree. I try not to state facts as ironclad, often stating the possibility that I could be wrong or asking others for information contrary to the statements I've made. When I state something which is later shown to be wrong, I apologize and admit my mistake. I do not want people on these forums to think I am some trolling jerkwad, so I do my best to not get sucked into silly arguments.
But, seriously dude, what are you on about?
First off, I can barely understand what you're trying to say. I understand that you are trying to use big words to make yourself sound smart, but that only works in moderation. When you get excessive with it, you just come off sounding like a butthead. Secondly, the impact of the 'smart guy words' gets lost when your post is filled with more typos than lines. I'm not trying to make fun of you, just provide a pointer or two here.
Moving on, if you want to make a point and get people to agree with you, you should probably keep your point concise, so that your readers know what the issue at hand is. As it is, we don't know if you are harping on the poor cast of plastic models, the general lack of creativity in the design of all models, or the comparisons that can be drawn between many of the armies and other sources.
Let's handle them one at a time. At first I thought your issue was that you didn't like the design of the plastic models. I, personally, find most of the models to be gorgeous. Even the most bland Assault on Black Reach Space Marine still contains dozens of little intricate bits that just beg to be painted with a dizzying array of increasingly fine tip brushes. The plastic models I purchase are dynamically posable, or already in interesting and varied poses.
If your problem is the lack of creativity in the different model lines, I would point out that this is a wargame, and as such, the models should be mostly warriors of some stripe. There is going to be a certain degree of similarity. While I would love to see Games Workshop make figs for tiny scarecrows, fiddle players, athletes, Jehovah's Witnesses, apple trees, and pomeranian dogs, those things don't really have much of a place on the battlefield. I think Games Workshop has done an outstanding job in making the different armies stand out from one another. From the alien biology of the Tyranids to the austere imposing force of the Space Marines, all the way to the ramshackle, brutal Orks, every army has a unique feel to it. If you don't see that, then perhaps you aren't trying to.
Finally, of course Games Workshop is unoriginal. Unoriginality pays. World of Warcraft ripped off Everquest and made a billion dollars. Disney ripped off Kimba. Most fantasy games of the last dozen years have ripped off Gygax in a big way, which is fair because Gygax stole his entire setting from Tolkien, which is also fair because Tolkien stole it from various European mythologies. If you are uncomfortable with one idea inspiring and giving rise to another, you should take a hard look at your viewpoing, because you are unlikely to ever be happy.
And now that I think of it, aren't you kind of contradicting yourself? On the one hand, you claim that there is so much on Earth and in our literary and artistic community to draw inspiration from, and that Games Workshop is failing to do this. Then you turn right around and claim that they are basing their concepts on things from history and science fiction, and that you don't like it. Do you want them to be wholly original, or do you want them take inspiration from somewhere else?
I've noticed a bunch of questions from you on here recently Swuk, and I have to ask, have you just recently started building an army? Because I wonder if you've started to hit the wall, so to speak, in your quest to build/paint an army, and if this little tantrum is just your reaction to it?
Seriously, if you honestly believe everything you said in your first post, then why did you ever pick up this game to begin with? And why do you still play it? If you want out, many of us are scouring Ebay on a regular basis looking for good buys. If you've got some vehicles for a Space Marine list, I'd even be willing to help you myself.
Ref I've noticed a bunch of questions from you on here recently Swuk, and I have to ask, have you just recently started building an army? Because I wonder if you've started to hit the wall, so to speak, in your quest to build/paint an army, and if this little tantrum is just your reaction to it?
A Valid question. Ive been a fan of sci fi and of war gaming since i was a kid , that going back to the 70's. Warhammer never realy sucked me in , I visited the shops on many occasions. Instinctively i knew it had strengths and weaknesses. Nevertheless i did a quick bit of research and waded in. I have found that the deeper i get into it the more obvious the flaws are , and thus feel compelled to point them out. It is my strong belief that warhammer could be made much better. They haven't worked their product lines or system anywhere near as hard as they could. Sometimes they get close , but no cigar. My criticism is all about taking the game to the next level. A level is strongly feel is should have already reached a decade ago.
I want to walk into a GW shop " and be so inspired " as to empty my pockets at the till. A catlog of mistakes small and large prevent me from feeling that way. Ive already listed a few but there are many many more. I know that the better GW does in overcoming their errors , the more players will take up with and stick with the hobby. GW seems to be satisfied with bag ' o cheap tricks. In my opinion it should only be satisfied with awesome.
for some their mistakes may seem more invisible to you. The errors im pointing out are genuine clunkers , the kind that would get your wrist slapped by your tutor if you attended art or design school and not errors or opinion related to artist difference.
I can understand if you have a legitimate argument as to why the designs are uninspired, but so far I've just seen you say how bad the nids are and how uninspired 40k is. This is an argument. Its just trolling and its funny.
Also, look up the difference between "aesthetic" and "anesthetic." Might cause you less trouble in the forseeable future.
Im glad you appreciate that minor errors stand out like a sore thumb to the informed eye. ( yes my spelling is as bad as GW artistic errors ) Guilty as charged lol.
Had that spelling mistake made its way to the bookstore shelves & remained in subsequent re runs no doubt my readership would feel compelled to highlight small but irritating errors.
I am one man , typing on the tinternet & not an experienced team whose day job is to build the best they can.
You have a human force set in a sci-fi/fantasy setting that is using armor and weaponry that resembles current stuff used in modern or historical settings. IG and the Astartes kind of show the next progression of mass produced military weapon for the future. I think the inspiration from historical periods/culture are more than welcome in a 40k setting. And you have to admit, they're really well done and carried through quite well with the whole force.
The only legitimate argument people can raise about 40k's background is how nothing has changed. GW, with their 25+ years working on the franchise, haven't moved the storyline along and it's a shame.
The artwork is also evolving and most of it's quite good. They have their highly stylistic artists like blanche that really capture that baroque and gothic feel. And they have their more modern artists which just do realistic and conceptualized pieces.
Also, look up the difference between "aesthetic" and "anesthetic." Might cause you less trouble in the forseeable future.
Im glad you appreciate that minor errors stand out like a sore thumb to the informed eye. ( yes my spelling is as bad as GW artistic errors ) Guilty as charged lol.
Indeed you are, though errors due to opinion of what something should look like and misspellings leading to a completely different word are in a bit of a different category. One is opinion, the other is an actual mistake.
Toodle-pip.
The IG suffer less from stylistic mistakes than others. Perhaps because GW doesn't have to create but dip into history. that said the Sentinel looks so out of place , and in the same way as the Ork in Mega Armour with Kombi Shoota-Rokkit Launcher looks so out of place in the Orc line up
When viewed in a vacuum the individual miniatures may look cool. But as part of an army line up each and every side has dozens of inclusions which look out of place.
The SM dreadnought looks far more at home in its army line up than similar mechwarrior units look in their army parade.
Q where is the Army whose main theme is the " mechwarrior "
An army which by definition will have the coolest mechwarriors in the game.
Most of the Orc Mech warriors look to straight , a vanilla mech warrior with a vanilla Orc plonked unceremoniously in the driving seat.....What are Orc doing with half a dozen mechwarriors style units anyway...its not thier theme ? I hope you can see where im coming from, Horses for courses.
Now if you asked me to design a mechwarrior for the Orcs i would first have to ask myself from what Army & Culture did they steal it from ? Did they build a copy in their own style as they see fit & refine their version until " in their Orcian minds " it was " way better than their foe's battlefield offerings "
Im not seeing that kind of depth being applied to Armies , Im seeing mechwarriors are cool lets give every side loads of em, and in doing so flushing each sides artistic provenance down the toilet.
He's trying to say that the style is generic. The Orks are generic, their suits are generic mech suits. In other words, he's speaking for the sake of speaking, and doesn't really have a point.
They haven't , but GW stole someone else Icon and shoe horned it into almost every 40k army.
That is their dual mistake
1 the proliferation of mechwarriors
2 shoehorning them in regardless of style or theme
some of the mechwariors look home grown, but MANY stick out like a sore thumb.
If GW had imagination & creativity it could make their own full on mechwarrior side from which all the other 40k Armies could steal blueprints or copy from.
That would then provide all the mechwarriors in the 40k universe with provenance & history.
My main thrust
Had GW stolen ideas and then refined and integrated them seamlessly into their universe they would be in a defensible position.
Had they of their own back created x,y,z themes and ICON's and developed them to their full height it would be in a good position to say the world had copied them.
To steal or create and then fail to develop and polish just lets your enemies overrun you down the road with their highly polished visions.
Its not just about style , its about good business. Too often a company gets a head start and rest on its laurels. ( the British Motorcycle Industry a prime example )
They took nothing from mechwarrior, the entire design of all the things you've mentioned is completely different. The closest thing we have are Tau Battlesuits, and those in such a different scale and again different design that your argument has no merit at all.
It's like saying every game with a robot or something even approaching that is ripping of mechwarrior.
Those bastards at GW ripped off Morecambe and Wise when writing the space wolf codex and the scabs from Nottingham heralded Thatcher when talking about Orks.
Don't they have any brains of their own GRRRRRRRRR
whoever has gained spiritual ownership through integration is the winner
Because the mechwarriors in 40k looked plonked in and not integrated ( some are integrated most are not ) It rightly gives the impression that GW stole the idea , and lacks the creative ability to integrate that idea.
To make a 40k army , i may as well wander a toy store blindfolded and fill my basket that way...that is the impression most of the armies in 40k give me
Give an example of "plonked in" mechwarriors. And no, it does not rightly give the idea, because you are wrong. The faction with the largest number of mechs? Tau, and those are very well integrated. Dreadnaughts are too, so are Kans and Titans.
Yeah. Sorry, swuk. Tried to be helpful, but you've gone off the deep end. When you start stating your opinion as though it were fact, you are no longer playing in the adult end of the pool, and have moved into the Jesse Jackson/Bill O'Reilly end of the spectrum. You're up on a soapbox, and you don't want to convince anyone of anything or discuss your arguments like a grown up. You're just spouting your opinions to hear yourself speak. And if you want to do that, that's fine. Next time, just say that up front so I can ignore the thread from the get-go rather than trying to help you out.
TrollPie wrote:I think he's just a troll...
Maybe we should let this thread die.
Not yet, not yet, we need to harvest more lulz from it Besides, I think we all realized he's a troll but are now toying with him to try and see how much more nonsense we can get
Jimsolo wrote:Yeah. Sorry, swuk. Tried to be helpful, but you've gone off the deep end. When you start stating your opinion as though it were fact, you are no longer playing in the adult end of the pool, and have moved into the Jesse Jackson/Bill O'Reilly end of the spectrum. You're up on a soapbox, and you don't want to convince anyone of anything or discuss your arguments like a grown up. You're just spouting your opinions to hear yourself speak. And if you want to do that, that's fine. Next time, just say that up front so I can ignore the thread from the get-go rather than trying to help you out.
Hang on...
You can understand what he is saying?
I've read all his posts about 5 times and i have no idea what his point is.
Jimsolo wrote:Yeah. Sorry, swuk. Tried to be helpful, but you've gone off the deep end. When you start stating your opinion as though it were fact, you are no longer playing in the adult end of the pool, and have moved into the Jesse Jackson/Bill O'Reilly end of the spectrum. You're up on a soapbox, and you don't want to convince anyone of anything or discuss your arguments like a grown up. You're just spouting your opinions to hear yourself speak. And if you want to do that, that's fine. Next time, just say that up front so I can ignore the thread from the get-go rather than trying to help you out.
Hang on...
You can understand what he is saying?
I've read all his posts about 5 times and i have no idea what his point is.
I seem to have the same problem. I understand some things he is saying but does not help understanding the big picture. Where is shiny when you need it (you know what I'm talking about purplefood)
He's talking about genericsism, that there is no artistic flare, that all the concepts in 40k are boring an unoriginal. He is wrong in many of his points, like the argument that mechs in 40k are out of place and are somehow direct rip-offs of battletech. His ideas are presented horribly, bad grammar, punctuation, text layout, the excessive use of quote marks and bold, and language better suited to an art or philosophical studies exam, all contribute to this joke of an argument.
Really? If i wasn't the polite and politically correct person i am i would make several distasteful comments regarding his observational skills and how they directly relate to his IQ. But i'm nice so i won't...
Very little is truly original, a lot of things are beautifully so but since many narratives become a part of our culture we cannot help but be influenced by them. As to his point on the walkers being out of place... well that doesn't really make sense.
I agree. There's still room for originality, but many ideas I have seen have been ridiculed because they look too similar to some specific concept in some book from the 70s, which the creator has most likely never even heard of.
Purple food let me give you one example of what i see as a unit belonging to the wrong side
In the IG army what looks more at home... the Space Marine Whirlwind , with it distinctly NATO appearance or The Imperial Guard Manticore / Deathstrike . look at the rockets , surely the more sophisticated rockets belong to the space marines on not the lower tech Imperial guard.
If i was calling the shots the SM rhino would be moved to the IG camp
I would take the more high tech looking rockets found on the IG vehicle and give them to the SM. I would then design a chassis that looked like it belonged in year 40,000 AD
Is there anyone here who thinks that the SM Whirlwind would look out of place in the IG line up ?
You know what is really irritating? The fact that the guy edits his posts heaps of times, each time being different. Take his mechwarrior post, it's the near opposite of what he originally said. Now apparently mechs are seamlessly integrated, when before they were "plonked in" and were out of place with the theme.
Edit : Oh god another senseless argument.
The Whirlwind looks infinitely more advanced than the Manticore. The Whirlwind looks like a Space Marine vehicle, the Manticore looks like an Imperial Guard vehicle. They would look out of place if swapped.
swuk wrote:Purple food let me give you one example of what i see as a unit belonging to the wrong side
In the IG army what looks more at home... the Space Marine Whirlwind , with it distinctly NATO appearance or The Imperial Guard Manticore / Deathstrike . look at the rockets , surely the more sophisticated rockets belong to the space marines on not the lower tech Imperial guard.
If i was calling the shots the SM rhino would be moved to the IG camp
I would take the more high tech looking rockets found on the IG vehicle and give them to the SM. I would then design a chassis that looked like it belonged in year 40,000 AD
Is there anyone here who thinks that the SM Whirlwind would look out of place in the IG line up ?
Apart from these few tiny points: The Whirlwind is based on the predator chassis which is used by SM forces because it is light and can carry a lot of guns. It isn't heavily armoured and doesn't have the same firepower as an MBT. The whirlwind is supposed to support SM in lightning strikes deathstrikes and manticores cannot move at the speeds required to do this.
The IG are not based on Nato or anything approaching that. They are overall loosely based on WWI thinking and tactics (Forget model design and look at it overall) and as such they have massive artillery pieces capable of creating hell on earth for a short time as the armies during WWI did.
Your biggest problem is that you think future=advanced tech and understanding of it. This isn't true in 40k, in 40k technology is akin to religion and is treated with superstition and ignorance even by those that understand it they may have advanced tech even rivalling the Tau but because they don't understand it they cannot improve upon it.
Incidentally SM are mired in tradition and relics. E.g.They mostly reject the improved Mk VIII power armour because they know the Mk. VII pattern better.
swuk wrote:Purple food let me give you one example of what i see as a unit belonging to the wrong side
In the IG army what looks more at home... the Space Marine Whirlwind , with it distinctly NATO appearance or The Imperial Guard Manticore / Deathstrike . look at the rockets , surely the more sophisticated rockets belong to the space marines on not the lower tech Imperial guard.
If i was calling the shots the SM rhino would be moved to the IG camp
I would take the more high tech looking rockets found on the IG vehicle and give them to the SM. I would then design a chassis that looked like it belonged in year 40,000 AD
Is there anyone here who thinks that the SM Whirlwind would look out of place in the IG line up ?
what are you talking about? there is a reason the IG have all the heavy armor and bad ass artillary...because they are made to "hold the line". SM on the other hand are a precision strike force....they wouldnt need huge ass missles to do what they do. Just like in the real world the Imperium's military support each other...there is no need for the space marines to have Leman russ tanks and manticore missles it would just be over kill for them especially because if they even needed them they could just call the IG.
And yes a Whirlewind would look slowed with the IG...the reason the IG are scary is because of their infinite amounts of tanks and artillary.
iproxtaco wrote:You know what is really irritating? The fact that the guy edits his posts heaps of times, each time being different. Take his mechwarrior post, it's the near opposite of what he originally said. Now apparently mechs are seamlessly integrated, when before they were "plonked in" and were out of place with the theme.
Edit : Oh god another senseless argument.
The Whirlwind looks infinitely more advanced than the Manticore. The Whirlwind looks like a Space Marine vehicle, the Manticore looks like an Imperial Guard vehicle. They would look out of place if swapped.
Yeah, sounds like he's a man who likes to be right.
Oh well.
In other news, the T'au Hammerhead was declared to look out of place, and was swapped for the Eldar falcon, on the basis that both races use smooth, curved surfaces in their vehicles and that nobody would notice.
The Manticore is based off of the generic big red rocket on the back or a truck that is associated with the soviets and China, which complies with the "In soviet Russia, we have no need for bullets, we will bury you with bodies" direction that GW has taken the IG in.
iproxtaco wrote:The Manticore is based off of the generic big red rocket on the back or a truck that is associated with the soviets and China, which is in the direction of the "In soviet Russia, we have no need for bullets, we will bury you with bodies" that GW has taken the IG in.
And they took it even further. They bury the enemy with bodies and then they bury the bodies with bodies.
I can't really come up with a single unit in the game that would be out of place at the moment. Naturally if we go with the swapping plan then I'd say that a leman russ would be very out of place in a tyranid army.
Nah, the inquisition does go to war, bringing their pet jokaero isn't something they would ever consider since the thing is far to valuable to lose in a battle.
Steam Punk takes its styling from one era , the tech may be more advanced than that era but the styling remains. That's not a deep definition , it a general description.
The IG Leeman Rusk , Basilisk , Manticor chassis and the SM Landraider all look like they belong to a side dedicated to steam punk & look distinctly out of place in their current armies.
Soladrin wrote:Nah, the inquisition does go to war, bringing their pet jokaero isn't something they would ever consider since the thing is far to valuable to lose in a battle.
They don't go to war that often though.
The jokaero should have stayed as an upgrade to existing models' weapons and not an actual model... go figure.
Steam Punk takes its styling from one era , the tech may be more advanced than that era but the styling remains. That's not a deep definition , it a general description.
The IG Leeman Rusk , Basilisk , Manticor chassis and the SM Landraider all look like they belong to a side dedicated to steam punk.
IG should be NATO +
SM should be NATO +++
That is all so very wrong I'm not even going to bother going into detail.
I spent about 5 minutes typing out a reply before i decided no one can be this wrong and not be intentionally trolling at which point i deleted my reply and typed this one instead.
A heavily converted Land Raider could look quite steampunk...ish but not the ordinary unconverted one. Yes it does resemble the WW1 tank but a way more advanced and modern version of it. It's more like a moving bunker. The Chimera chassis and the Leman Russ... they just make me think Russia. Steampunk conversions of those might be nice actually. Maybe with Vostroyans or a completely converted steampunk IG force.
Steam Punk takes its styling from one era , the tech may be more advanced than that era but the styling remains. That's not a deep definition , it a general description.
The IG Leeman Rusk , Basilisk , Manticor chassis and the SM Landraider all look like they belong to a side dedicated to steam punk & look distinctly out of place in their current armies.
IG should be NATO +
SM should be NATO +++
Now you are just thrusting opinion into what each army should be,changing decades of bad fluff , in all seriousness I actually like the ww2esque look of the imperial guard, and personally I think space marines look fine, the only unit I would give them is the baneblade.....because it looks fething awesome, another thing that you may not be looking at is the fact that many people who are drawn to 40k modelling are drawn from the ranks of ww2 modelling, and as such GW moves in a way to please people like that more, and in doing so earn more $$. Quite frankly if you dont like 40k minis dont buy them, such as I dont care for the look of fantasy models, so I do not buy them, and since most games I play are friendly it doesnt really hurt anyones feelings when I proxy, if you are a tourney player then you are probably SOL and JWF.
TL;DR If you dont like the minis dont buy them, let other people use their money how they see fit.
Its quite funny, even after linking the wiki page for steampunk he still has no idea what it means, and then wrongly attributes the definition to WW1 tanks and then IG vehicles.
Red Comet wrote:I can understand if you have a legitimate argument as to why the designs are uninspired, but so far I've just seen you say how bad the nids are and how uninspired 40k is. This is an argument. Its just trolling and its funny.
He has criticised the IoM tanks too, on the grounds they are obvious rip-offs of earlier designs.
Kazerkinelite wrote:If anything the IG are more Warsaw Pact than NATO....but I don't really understand how he is treating NATO as a style...
I blame call of duty.
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Kilkrazy wrote:
Red Comet wrote:I can understand if you have a legitimate argument as to why the designs are uninspired, but so far I've just seen you say how bad the nids are and how uninspired 40k is. This is an argument. Its just trolling and its funny.
He has criticised the IoM tanks too, on the grounds they are obvious rip-offs of earlier designs.
Doesn't anyone have any good counter-arguments?
At this rate he'll win the thread by default.
Problem is hes an obvious troll so no ones really giving an effort to win, and as I stated earlier in the thread 40k intentionally draws upon the past for almost everything........
During construction, to conceal their true identity as weapons, they were designated as water carriers for the Mesopotamian campaign and referred to as "tanks" (as in "water tank").
Water Tank , as in water tank that accompanies a steam engines boiler.
If ever there was a tank that helped defined the very meaning of the phrase "steam tank " it was the WW1 tank that has been dropped into the SM army and renamed as a land raider.
The silhouette , sponson placement and front center section are identical . The only notable change is that the top of the tracks are enclosed. But the tracks do follow the ww1 path exactly explaining why the SM tank is identical in silhouette.
Now if a was a SM commander , and a Landraider rolled onto my parade i would step out in front of it and tell them to return it to the junk keep it came from.
" get that rust heap out of here , I wouldn't even give it the IG for target practice ! "
dont get me wrong , I love the style of the ww1 tank, GW has left the key design well alone A+ ...but what is it doing in a SM Army parade ??? GW should design an army on a steampunk theme , the WW1 tank would take pride of place in that army.
You see Its not what GW have done with the WW1 tank they have plonked into their universe... Its where they have put it !
They could create an entire WW1 style army and gently dust it with 40k
Or
They could create an entire steampunk styled army , in which the WW1 tank , with a little dust of steam punk ala' 40k would fit right in.
In my mind these are the only two armies that the WW1 tank / Landraider should be in. Neither of these armies exist right now , but they could and very probably should....GW would then find me emptying my pockets on the counter to buy either of these strongly styled cohesive armies with out complaint.
Red Comet wrote:I can understand if you have a legitimate argument as to why the designs are uninspired, but so far I've just seen you say how bad the nids are and how uninspired 40k is. This is an argument. Its just trolling and its funny.
He has criticised the IoM tanks too, on the grounds they are obvious rip-offs of earlier designs.
Doesn't anyone have any good counter-arguments?
At this rate he'll win the thread by default.
Yeah, by looking at every tank ever made, the IG are a conglomerate of several designs, not a direct rip-off of any specific one.
Red Comet wrote:I can understand if you have a legitimate argument as to why the designs are uninspired, but so far I've just seen you say how bad the nids are and how uninspired 40k is. This is an argument. Its just trolling and its funny.
He has criticised the IoM tanks too, on the grounds they are obvious rip-offs of earlier designs.
Doesn't anyone have any good counter-arguments?
At this rate he'll win the thread by default.
Yeah, by looking at every tank ever made, the IG are a conglomerate of several designs, not a direct rip-off of any specific one.
Which strangely is what the real military does.........
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Soladrin wrote:Couldn't Resist!
.....I fething love you
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swuk wrote:
Now if a was a SM commander , and a Landraider rolled onto my parade i would step out in front of it and tell them to return it to the junk keep it came from.
" get that rust heap out of here , I wouldn't even give it the IG for target practice ! "
dont get me wrong , I love the style of the ww1 tank, GW has left the key design well alone A+ ...but what is it doing in a SM Army parade ??? GW should design an army on a steampunk theme , the WW1 tank would take pride of place in that army.
You see Its not what GW have done with the WW1 tank they have plonked into their universe... Its where they have put it !
They could create an entire WW1 style army and gently dust it with 40k
Or
They could create an entire steampunk styled army , in which the WW1 tank , with a little dust of steam punk ala' 40k would fit right in.
In my mind these are the only two armies that the WW1 tank / Landraider should be in. Neither of these armies exist right now , but they could and very probably should....GW would then find me emptying my pockets on the counter to buy either of these strongly styled cohesive armies with out complaint.
I had respect for you William Shatner. Calling a land raider a rusted POS though draws the line, its a fething badass transport, and it minmaxes transport size with armor, and lets face it sponsons are always badass, and IG strategy is pretty much ww1(look at Commander Chenkov) and I wouldnt touch a steampunk army with a 10 foot pole, hell I dislike them because of the fact if I bring a gas mask to airsoft anytime most people think steampunk fanboy rather than ''heh that guy needs to spend less money on militaria and more on getting a life"
The Land Raider silhouette is not identical to the Mark I. The LR is the other way round to start, the front is raised off the ground, everything is more angular. Between the tracks is raised to create a hatch as this is a transport vehicle. Saying that a real SM commander would order a LR to go away is laughable, as SM commanders seem to get on with them really well in fluff. The vehicle is obviously derived from sources, the Mark I influence is obvious. However, the concept of the Land Raider is absolutely perfect for what the SM need, and is a design which makes sense from a technical perspective.
The IG are more of a Red Army WW II influenced force in my opinion. Large amount of standard equipped and inexperienced troops steamrollering the enemy with weight of firepower, large use of mass-produced tanks and other vehicles, a general concentration on armour. Troops gain large amount of experience over time, becoming veterans very quickly.
ref " Yeah, by looking at every tank ever made, the IG are a conglomerate of several designs, not a direct rip-off of any specific one "
and that in a nutshell is my general complaint , better to rip off one style eg NATO+ or build your own style. In the case of IG , it is meant to be the square side , they have spoil it by ripping form many areas diluting its raison d'etre . There was no need to do this. If you cant create NATA+ then just copy NATO & voilà , you now have a cohesive army with a distinct style that does what it says on the tin....no complaints....no confusion.
as most of the 40k armies seems to rip off this, that and the other from all over the place they destroy their own theme & uniqueness
If it was the odd unit / vehicle here and there its not so bad. You can retain your style. By the time you have added the umpteenth topping to your pizza you are left with a mouthful of everything. Each flavor battling for supremacy on your tongue.
Its like an icecream,curry pizza garnished with brandy and champagne
swuk wrote:ref " Yeah, by looking at every tank ever made, the IG are a conglomerate of several designs, not a direct rip-off of any specific one "
and that in a nutshell is my general complaint.
as most of the 40k armies seems to rip off this, that and the other from all over the place they destroy their own theme & uniqueness
If it was the odd unit / vehicle here and there its not so bad. You can retain your style. By the time you have added the umpteenth topping to your pizza you are left with a mouthful of everything. Each flavor battling for supremacy on your tongue.
Its like an icecream,curry pizza garnished with brandy and champagne
swuk wrote:ref " Yeah, by looking at every tank ever made, the IG are a conglomerate of several designs, not a direct rip-off of any specific one "
and that in a nutshell is my general complaint.
as most of the 40k armies seems to rip off this, that and the other from all over the place they destroy their own theme & uniqueness
If it was the odd unit / vehicle here and there its not so bad. You can retain your style. By the time you have added the umpteenth topping to your pizza you are left with a mouthful of everything. Each flavor battling for supremacy on your tongue.
Its like an icecream,curry pizza garnished with brandy and champagne
Well militaries have always gone with what works, and the design works for them, also remember technology has gone down the crapper since the Emperor was last able to leave the Golden Throne
swuk wrote:ref " Yeah, by looking at every tank ever made, the IG are a conglomerate of several designs, not a direct rip-off of any specific one "
and that in a nutshell is my general complaint.
as most of the 40k armies seems to rip off this, that and the other from all over the place they destroy their own theme & uniqueness
If it was the odd unit / vehicle here and there its not so bad. You can retain your style. By the time you have added the umpteenth topping to your pizza you are left with a mouthful of everything. Each flavor battling for supremacy on your tongue.
Its like an icecream,curry pizza garnished with brandy and champagne
No idea what your point is. Yes, there are derivations in certain parts, but all of it comes together to form something that is no longer a bland and un-unique concept. The Leman Russ is something that we haven't seen before, because the designers and artists at GW have taken certain ideas TO MAKE SOMETHING ORIGINAL.
Actually... now that I think about it a Leman Russ without the turrett resembles the WW1 tank more than a Land Raider does (if you have a Russ somewhere near you with a turrett that has not been glued in place take the turrett off and look at the tank for a second).
gaovinni wrote:Actually... now that I think about it a Leman Russ without the turrett resembles the WW1 tank more than a Land Raider does (if you have a Russ somewhere near you with a turrett that has not been glued in place take the turrett off and look at the tank for a second).
deffinately not the best example that could have been given, but looking at the Storm Toaster and the Valkyrie/Vendetta they are original and interesting(Big whoop if it uses a name from norse mythology)
I still have no idea what the OP is talking about. It's like reading a book of nonsense.
I mean, has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? Really now, I think that's the whole point of this thread.
The elements don't come together to form an original and unique concept. They just look like fethed up copies (in the case of IoM). They look like no-one bothered to put any design work into the armies.
That's the difference with the Eldar and Tau armies. A designer has clearly thought about an aesthetic that carries through all the units so the whole collection of vehicles looks like it was created by the same species/faction/race/army command whatever you like to call it.
The Deldar also have design consistency, even though they are not original.
Xca|iber wrote:I still have no idea what the OP is talking about. It's like reading a book of nonsense.
I mean, has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? Really now, I think that's the whole point of this thread.
Read it like Captain Kirk, it really does help, if nothing else you laugh really fething hard
The elements don't come together to form an original and unique concept. They just look like fethed up copies (in the case of IoM). They look like no-one bothered to put any design work into the armies.
That's the difference with the Eldar and Tau armies. A designer has clearly thought about an aesthetic that carries through all the units so the whole collection of vehicles looks like it was created by the same species/faction/race/army command whatever you like to call it.
The Deldar also have design consistency, even though they are not original.
Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I can see that IG vehicles are not absolute rip-offs, not really bothered if you can't.
The elements don't come together to form an original and unique concept. They just look like fethed up copies (in the case of IoM). They look like no-one bothered to put any design work into the armies.
That's the difference with the Eldar and Tau armies. A designer has clearly thought about an aesthetic that carries through all the units so the whole collection of vehicles looks like it was created by the same species/faction/race/army command whatever you like to call it.
The Deldar also have design consistency, even though they are not original.
Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I can see that IG vehicles are not absolute rip-offs, not really bothered if you can't.
Kilkrazy wrote:That's the difference with the Eldar and Tau armies. A designer has clearly thought about an aesthetic that carries through all the units so the whole collection of vehicles looks like it was created by the same species/faction/race/army command whatever you like to call it.
While I do agree with you, the mismatched design profiles of the IOM stuff does suit the whole "recovering technology and putting it to use" idea of the lost STC's.
The elements don't come together to form an original and unique concept. They just look like fethed up copies (in the case of IoM). They look like no-one bothered to put any design work into the armies.
That's the difference with the Eldar and Tau armies. A designer has clearly thought about an aesthetic that carries through all the units so the whole collection of vehicles looks like it was created by the same species/faction/race/army command whatever you like to call it.
The Deldar also have design consistency, even though they are not original.
Yeah well the IoM is the Human race....so of course when making models you're going to be influenced by militaries throughout history(I mean would you like to see some ultra futuristic tank with IG, no). While when it comes to tau, eldar, etc. they have the liberty of making more unique armor. And personally I love the way the IoM is made up and I personallly think eldar and tau, are quite stupid(no offense to any player out there, each to his own)
you sit down with a blank sheet of paper and work it, work it work it.
Running down to your nearest toy store , filling it up with random goods and filling up half the army slots in you entire line up is not original.
There is a place in 40k for traditional themed armies as well as more jazzy themed armies. There is also places for armes that borrow heavily from more than one theme..kind mad max / diy armies
The space marines would stand out stronger if they had their own unique vehicles that where not blatant copies of a bygone age , current military vehicles or other fads , like the fat tire biker a clone of judge dread motorcycle
I would be happy to see SM vehicles that are unique & styled to fit...whats wrong with that ?
This has to be better than plonking naked copies of whats already out there in your army line up and that's just what GW has done with the sm vehicles.....total lack of creativity here
The SM marines themselves are ok , the terminators beefed up by comparison to the right extent. The heavy duty jetpacks of the assault squad are also inline with common sense....it is the vehicles that let the SM side down.
From sniper to terminator the main troops look ok...even good. How about for a set of vehicles that has the same matching grace ? ...that would help me open my wallet.
I still don't think you have a point. Similar, of course, it's not wrong though to derive from a real-life source, which isn't a copyright in terms of fiction. A Rhino is also a sound design concept, as is the Land Raider, and the bikes, they are also sound concepts. When comparing pictures of the so called sources, then no, I don't think they are direct copies like you seem to believe, the Land Raider specifically is not for reasons given.
Narratives of all kinds are a part of our culture.
We are influenced by our culture whenever we make or do something.
It is impossible to do anything without being influenced by our culture.
Also the IoM gained its current tech through finding STCs. The difference in design is easily explainable through this.
If the entire world population united under one ruler and functioned as a single people, it's not unreasonable that certain national design aesthetics (anesthetics, lulz) would mingle with others.
Im sorry but everytime i try and respond to this i can't help but feel like this guy is that one friend everyone has that try's to be an artsy movie critic about all movies just to make himself feel smarter than you.
Also still waiting on an answer to how NATO is a design style.
I say we hold this thread up till he explains what the devil NATO design style is since that seems to be crucial to his argument and hence crucial for the opposite side of the debate to crush it.
Well, like Matt Wilson once said to someone complaining about Warmachine at the 2005 PAX convention in Seattle..."If you think you can make a better game then I did then do it! put your money where your mouth is"
Wise words to anyone complaining about a gaming system I'd say.
Pfah, at this rate we won't be having that anymore in a few years.
They want to treat weed with a THC value of over 15% as hard drugs.
Their also going introduce a "weed pass" which means only dutch people can get into a coffee shop.
I don't smoke the stuff these days, but it still bothers me, these changes are for reducing trouble for the neighbourhoods but all their doing is driving it into criminal hands...
When I saw this topic first hit yesterday and there were no posts I was thinking about typing "Um...what?" Because it was such a PITA to follow. Now seeing 6 pages of it continue, I'd like to add in my own little bit of troll-food that I should have put in yesterday, but had better things to do with my life: like anything
So without any further or do.... "Um, what? Do you have an actual point here?"
timetowaste85 wrote:When I saw this topic first hit yesterday and there were no posts I was thinking about typing "Um...what?" Because it was such a PITA to follow. Now seeing 6 pages of it continue, I'd like to add in my own little bit of troll-food that I should have put in yesterday, but had better things to do with my life: like anything
So without any further or do.... "Um, what? Do you have an actual point here?"
But first explain NATO style please, for I want to know if what we have as NATO style is correct
timetowaste85 wrote:When I saw this topic first hit yesterday and there were no posts I was thinking about typing "Um...what?" Because it was such a PITA to follow. Now seeing 6 pages of it continue, I'd like to add in my own little bit of troll-food that I should have put in yesterday, but had better things to do with my life: like anything
So without any further or do.... "Um, what? Do you have an actual point here?"
But first explain NATO style please, for I want to know if what we have as NATO style is correct
To be serious, can you point out specific examples of what could be done better? I read you scathing review of the tyranids on page one, and I'm wondering what, in your opinion, should GW have done instead?
swuk wrote:ref " Yeah, by looking at every tank ever made, the IG are a conglomerate of several designs, not a direct rip-off of any specific one "
and that in a nutshell is my general complaint , better to rip off one style eg NATO+ or build your own style. In the case of IG , it is meant to be the square side , they have spoil it by ripping form many areas diluting its raison d'etre . There was no need to do this. If you cant create NATA+ then just copy NATO & voilà , you now have a cohesive army with a distinct style that does what it says on the tin....no complaints....no confusion.
Sir, that is how people improve on tank designs. The designers of the Challenger-II did not sit down and say "well, the sloping armour of the T-34 is an excellent feature, but sadly it's a Russian feature and all of our tanks must be based on British style."
That is what you call plain common sense.
Now, here's your Earl Grey. Come and sit down, and you can drink it in peace.
micahaphone wrote:To be serious, can you point out specific examples of what could be done better? I read you scathing review of the tyranids on page one, and I'm wondering what, in your opinion, should GW have done instead?
The Tyranids
A quick glance at the Battle Box leaves me thinking " They all look the same to me "
When deployed on the battlefield they dont that fair much better visually.
Pick one up and closely examine it and it still takes a while for your eyes to take in the plethora of arms and legs. Do that with every unit in the range and your mind becomes a blur.
As a fighting force , they are fine as an idea , a way to play.
Colours are odd , white underbelly , high contrasting blocks of colour. Its as if the designers had done all they could to confuse the eyes.
A shark has a light underbelly BECAUSE it swims in the sea and it helps to hide its shadow from prey swimming below.
The paint scheme reminds of some of the Germans Naval Camouflage designs , use of contrasting block colour to confuse enemies at a distance
Now of course they can be painted different colors etc . My point is that GW used one of the worst colour schemes for the job, compounded by the fact that a flail of arms and legs in weird proportions is hard for the eye to make sense of....." they all look the same to me syndrome " If i decided to paint them up as trees and position them in a forest like manner you would walk past the table none the wiser.
So here we have an army of rushing monsters that dont do justice to the term.
What needs changing , well first and foremost as they are deployed mostly in large numbers it wouldn't hurt to simplify their form a little. After all most of the detail is lost in the rush.
In redesigning the army i would take great care to make sure that the different troops where strongly differentiated in form and color. Further more i would choose my colors very wisely in order to highlight the key features of each troops. Basically im after WYSIWYG at a glance. Im not after perfection but where i have choices this is the general direction that its sensible to head.
Now having toned down the colours and form of the worst offenders i could proceed to beef up the Elites and HQ's They are badass , i want your kid sister to walk into your room and run screaming at the sight of a stray Tyranid left on the floor....ok thats pushing it a little bit , lol
Tyrant Guard ? With a body like that i doubt it could cross the road with out falling over. Proportions are all wrong = Not scary or battle worthy
Tyrant Hive Guard ? another ridiculous B movie monster...my guns bigger than your gun...yeah but you looklike youve been stamped on and half squashed
Hormogaunt Brood ? I would streamline the model , less spikey , lets highlight those bloodstained murderous claws , beef up your legs a touch and equip you with feet that enable you to twist , turn and pursue your quarry. Sheep Hoof be gone
Gene stealer ? Lets slim down those arms and slightly differentiate them into primary and secondary fast slashing weapons. This will highlight the claw like nature of the beat you are. The eye is drawn to light colors not dark. Markings on the body need to be muted so you complex shape and form stands out.
Zoanthrope ? one word sea horse...yes its a struggle to find you a suitable form , pretty as you are your form & function stretches credibility
Carnifex ? passable , but you need to be unwound from your compact form & made 10 or 20% larger to do you justices
just a few ideas , the current sculpting and color scheme and differentiation just dont do the Tyranids justice on the table
micahaphone wrote:To be serious, can you point out specific examples of what could be done better? I read you scathing review of the tyranids on page one, and I'm wondering what, in your opinion, should GW have done instead?
The Tyranids
A quick glance at the Battle Box leaves me thinking " They all look the same to me "
When deployed on the battlefield they dont that fair much better visually.
Pick one up and closely examine it and it still takes a while for your eyes to take in the plethora of arms and legs. Do that with every unit in the range and your mind becomes a blur.
As a fighting force , they are fine as an idea , a way to play.
Colours are odd , white underbelly , high contrasting blocks of colour. Its as if the designers had done all they could to confuse the eyes.
A shark has a light underbelly BECAUSE it swims in the sea and it helps to hide its shadow from prey swimming below.
The paint scheme reminds of some of the Germans Naval Camouflage designs , use of contrasting block colour to confuse enemies at a distance
Now of course they can be painted different colors etc . My point is that GW used one of the worst colour schemes for the job, compounded by the fact that a flail of arms and legs in weird proportions is hard for the eye to make sense of....." they all look the same to me syndrome " If i decided to paint them up as trees and position them in a forest like manner you would walk past the table none the wiser.
So here we have an army of rushing monsters that dont do justice to the term.
What needs changing , well first and foremost as they are deployed mostly in large numbers it wouldn't hurt to simplify their form a little. After all most of the detail is lost in the rush.
In redesigning the army i would take great care to make sure that the different troops where strongly differentiated in form and color. Further more i would choose my colors very wisely in order to highlight the key features of each troops. Basically im after WYSIWYG at a glance. Im not after perfection but where i have choices this is the general direction that its sensible to head.
Now having toned down the colours and form of the worst offenders i could proceed to beef up the Elites and HQ's They are badass , i want your kid sister to walk into your room and run screaming at the sight of a stray Tyranid left on the floor....ok thats pushing it a little bit , lol
Tyrant Guard ? With a body like that i doubt it could cross the road with out falling over. Proportions are all wrong = Not scary or battle worthy
Tyrant Hive Guard ? another ridiculous B movie monster...my guns bigger than your gun...yeah but you looklike youve been stamped on and half squashed
Hormogaunt Brood ? I would streamline the model , less spikey , lets highlight those bloodstained murderous claws , beef up your legs a touch and equip you with feet that enable you to twist , turn and pursue your quarry. Sheep Hoof be gone
Gene stealer ? Lets slim down those arms and slightly differentiate them into primary and secondary fast slashing weapons. This will highlight the claw like nature of the beat you are. The eye is drawn to light colors not dark. Markings on the body need to be muted so you complex shape and form stands out.
just a few ideas , the current sculpting and color scheme and differentiation just dont do the Tyranids justice on the table
For example the drive system of a ship with largely dictate the rest of the ships design.
If you want your tanks to be able to fire defilade dictates that your tank will do so with a turret and gun system mounted up top and forward so as to be able to depress the gun and fire down at the valley and roads while your tank is more obscured to return fire by the angle of the hill your on.
Sloped armor provides more thickness to the face on angle = more protection.
For example the drive system of a ship with largely dictate the rest of the ships design.
If you want your tanks to be able to fire defilade dictates that your tank will do so with a turret and gun system mounted up top and forward so as to be able to depress the gun and fire down at the valley and roads while your tank is more obscured to return fire by the angle of the hill your on.
Sloped armor provides more thickness to the face on angle = more protection.
Physics people, Physics.
Thats just the modern style, now he has been saying they need to be more nato, I seem to recall eastbloc since its formation always maintained sloped armor vehicles as well as even now post iron curtain.
Hey I probably was dropped on my head, that or I act like it way too often, besides all my william shatner stuff should be considered a possible honor, hell I wouldnt mind being called william shatner If nothing else read my signature.
For example the drive system of a ship with largely dictate the rest of the ships design.
If you want your tanks to be able to fire defilade dictates that your tank will do so with a turret and gun system mounted up top and forward so as to be able to depress the gun and fire down at the valley and roads while your tank is more obscured to return fire by the angle of the hill your on.
Sloped armor provides more thickness to the face on angle = more protection.
Physics people, Physics.
Amen a touch more form and function for mechanical and biological units goes a long way to giving units credibility
Form and function is the difference between B movie and Global Icon
note : on the pages of legend aka fluff descriptions of greek monsters or otherwise and their associated artwork is always exaggerated. Transferring form novel to plastic or from comic to the big screen requires you to tune in to common sensibilities or your audience will evaporate. Unrealistic plastic is like wooden acting , its jarring to the sensibilities. The plastic should set the frame work for the imagination. Laid bare on the table as GW miniatures are they are also laid open to the same level of critique one would give movie special effects.
Godzilla style over the top dodgy effects is kinda fun , but western sensibilities need a little more maturity to be taken in.
Yes , high fantasy is one thing , but trying to shoot yourself in the foot with a gun longer than your leg has another name. Slapstick Comedy
well remember turrets recquire more power and hence more space, hence the reason we dont have an APC with a Cannon suitable for the Abrams, the LR is sloped in the front which is the direction its meant to take fire from
I have no issue with the Form of the Landraider aka world war one tank. It was a cool tank yesteryear, and it will still be cool tomorrow.
Note : The ww1 tank became a global icon long before the makers of warhammer were even born.
I do have issue with dropping a globally recognized icon from the past into a sci fi universe set 40,000 years in the future....the space marines deserve much much better,
Looking at the good artwork GW has come up with why are we still waiting for proper SM vehicles ?
If was designing the SM army and the boss came in and plonked that ww1 tank on my desk id give him a weird look.
Designer " so what you are saying is that you dont trust me to design a cool tank for the space marines ? ... what next spitfires for drop pods...get the flock out of here and let me get on with my job...designing cool stuff "
swuk wrote:I have no issue with the Form of the Landraider aka world war one tank. It was a cool tank yesteryear, and it will still be cool tomorrow.
Note : The ww1 tank became a global icon long before the makers of warhammer were even born.
I do have issue with dropping a globally recognized icon from the past into a sci fi universe set 40,000 years in the future....the space marines deserve much much better & looking at the good artwork they have come up with why are will still waiting for proper SM vehicles ?
If was designing the SM army and the boss came in and plonked that ww1 tanon my desk id give him a weird look.
Designer " so what you are saying is that you dont trust me to design a cool tank for the space marines ? ... what next spitfires fro drop pods...get the flock out of here and let me get on with my job...designing cool stuff "
First off, sir, you have brought me an untold amount of joy from your strange ranting and raving on these 8 pages and i would like to thank you.
secondly, please take more time to write your posts. I'm not perfect either, but i can barely read it and an often left wondering at your grasp at the english language.
I'm sure most people wouldn't like to argue with you, in fact most of them have taken your wild views as trolling and have responded to you with contempt. I on the other hand will argue, at risk of feeding the troll, because this thread is too funny to let die.
Onto the main point the asthetic of 40k is not for everyone, but many of their design decisions have come from the basic premises of 40k's lore. The land raider is certainly a great example of this as, and you have noticed this, it is clearly a copy of the mark 4 english tank from ww1. This invokes many images, this tank isn't a fancy piece of machinery; it like its predecessor is a lumbering behemoth. This makes the viewer wonder a few things about the universe of 40k; in short why such an old, unfuturistic tank in the far future.
Why? The Land Raider represents Imperial stagnation and an unwillingness to adapt. Much like their fear/hatred of the alien, the Imperium displaces a this same belief towards technology in their endless quests to preserve the old.
Simple things like this are why i like the model range of 40k These are of course just my views and anyone can feel free to correct me; i know quite a bit of the lore, but by all means i am no expert.
The battle of old vs new is valid and worth examining.
You will find the real reason behind many of GW decisions is not based upon backbreaking work to bend the plastic to meet the fluff.
On the face of it , much of GW efforts in miniatures is cut n paste...too much !
The tooling cost of 1 tank design vs another tank design changes little. ....it is not cheap to tool up. New models are expensive to introduce. Where i feel that GW has let itself down is in the design stage. What ive seem come off the production line is ok to good 'build quality' wise. But they should of spent a few more crates of beer on the design side of things before committing to mass plastic.
No company is perfect. The bulk GW designs DO need lifting to a higher level. Tooling only last so long before it has to be redone. I think it has been too easy to keep churning out the same old thing.
I bet the LOTR series is responsible for distracting GW away from polishing whfb and wh40k
Coming in fresh and with a keen eye for good design and a nose for corporate PR im kind of shocked and disappointed at the 'mild mess" GW model lineup represents. I feel its suffering from death of a 1000 cuts , lots of minor flaws adding up to something far less inspiring than it has the potential to be...ok pathetic is too flamey a phrase perhaps. But its what rolled of my tongue at the time. There are a lot & lots of faults on the plastic side of things, its a lack of vision and direction rather than the odd slip of a pen or a sculptors knife. Its only when you look closely you see what that a large proportion of their plastic is in a pickle.
Im not going to change the world sitting at my keyboard. The discussion is interesting. excluding the one liners, lol.
But if i get the feel that changing GW lineup is going to be worthwhile i may well pay them a visit. I know whats cool , I know what sells. I also know whats shallow and whats deep.Though i dont think GW head is on the railroad tracks right now.( listening for the next train) They are contracting their operation. The initial signs look overly defensive , BUT they know they need to change even if they are not openly willing to admit.
Who knows, a whole bunch of little changes could breath some new life and fresh air into the table top world.
Better and better
Drowned this thread will never be
Screw five syllables
all joking aside I think we are just using the thread as something to do, and haiku works
Automatically Appended Next Post:
swuk wrote:The battle of old vs new is valid
But you will find the real reason behind many of GW decisions is not based upon backbreaking work to bend the plastic to meet the fluff.
On the face of it , much of GW efforts in miniatures is cut n paste...too much !
The tooling cost of 1 tank design vs another tank design changes little. ....it is not cheap to tool up. New models are expensive to introduce. Where i feel that GW has let itself down is in the design stage. What ive seem come off the production line is ok to good 'build quality' wise. But hey should of spent a few more crates of beer on the design side of things.
No company is perfect. The bulk GW designs need lifting to a higher level. Tooling only last so long before it has to be redone. I think it has been too easy to keep churning out the same old thing.
I bet the LOTR series is responsible for distracting GW away from polishing whfb and wh40k
Coming in fresh and with a keen eye for good design and a nose for corporate PR im kind of shocked and disappointed at the 'mild mess" GW model lineup represents. I feel its suffering from death of a 100 cuts , lots of minor flaws adding up to something far less inspiring than it has the potential to be.
Im not going to change the world sitting at my keyboard. The discussion is interesting. excluding the one liners, lol.
But if i get the feel that changing GW lineup is going to be worthwhile i may well pay them a visit. I know whats cool , I know what sells. I also know whats shallow and whats deep.Though i dont think GW head is on the railroad tracks right now.( listening for the next train) They are contracting their operation. The initial signs look overly defensive , BUT they know they need to change even if they are not openly willing to admit.
Who knows, a whole bunch of little changes could breath some new life and fresh air into the table top world.
Well a piece of possibly constructive advice is to look at forgeworld and Imperial Armour stuff, that way there you can get some possibly interesting stuff most players havent seen before, it seems much of the problem is you see certain things way too much, hell if someone can proxy to scale and rules I would not have a problem with playing against them, for instance if someone were to make their own Land Raider that is the same hieght and has the sponsons I would be completely fine with the different look.
All the same , i do wish they had a wider line up and tighter product lines.
There are at least a dozen strong themes they could roll out. Perhaps if they did that then there would be an army for everyman & people would have far less reason grumble about alien races on spindly legs with over sized guns with a hodge podge arsenal.
I can live with SM and prolly IG, the rest of the armies i find totally uninspiring in the main. When i do build an army i tend to build huge ones im having second thought about doing this with 40k
swuk wrote:The battle of old vs new is valid and worth examining.
You will find the real reason behind many of GW decisions is not based upon backbreaking work to bend the plastic to meet the fluff.
On the face of it , much of GW efforts in miniatures is cut n paste...too much !
The tooling cost of 1 tank design vs another tank design changes little. ....it is not cheap to tool up. New models are expensive to introduce. Where i feel that GW has let itself down is in the design stage. What ive seem come off the production line is ok to good 'build quality' wise. But they should of spent a few more crates of beer on the design side of things before committing to mass plastic.
No company is perfect. The bulk GW designs DO need lifting to a higher level. Tooling only last so long before it has to be redone. I think it has been too easy to keep churning out the same old thing.
I bet the LOTR series is responsible for distracting GW away from polishing whfb and wh40k Coming in fresh and with a keen eye for good design and a nose for corporate PR im kind of shocked and disappointed at the 'mild mess" GW model lineup represents. I feel its suffering from death of a 1000 cuts , lots of minor flaws adding up to something far less inspiring than it has the potential to be...ok pathetic is too flamey a phrase perhaps. But its what rolled of my tongue at the time. There are a lot & lots of faults on the plastic side of things, its a lack of vision and direction rather than the odd slip of a pen or a sculptors knife. Its only when you look closely you see what that a large proportion of their plastic is in a pickle.
Im not going to change the world sitting at my keyboard. The discussion is interesting. excluding the one liners, lol.
But if i get the feel that changing GW lineup is going to be worthwhile i may well pay them a visit. I know whats cool , I know what sells. I also know whats shallow and whats deep.Though i dont think GW head is on the railroad tracks right now.( listening for the next train) They are contracting their operation. The initial signs look overly defensive , BUT they know they need to change even if they are not openly willing to admit.
Who knows, a whole bunch of little changes could breath some new life and fresh air into the table top world.
There really doesn't have to be a wide range of new models. The universe of 40k hasn't expanded much timewise so why in a universe of stagnation would there be radical redesigning of things.
I'm by no means an expert of such things, but all tanks look really similar to me. Looking at the panzers of ww2 germany and looking at the modern tanks of today; if the design works why change it?
So looking at the iconic Space Marines; 3 vehicles are different Land Raiders (crusader, redeemer, godhammer), the same durable, powerful frame tooled for multiple purposes. 5 are made off of the rhino (razorback, predator, vindicator, whirlwind). Aside from the argument that the imperium doesn't invent new things all the time; similar shapes add cohesion to the army. Different shapes are like different colors; you can't have them all in anything without it looking bad. Idk know anything about fashion, but i know your not supposed to mix patterns (or at least not wear plaid with stripes and spots); consider the same thing in your models, why have every vehicle look radically different it'll make it seem like a hodpodge of different settings.
Consider the natural/ universal beauty of simplicty before you discount it as boring.
All the same , i do wish they had a wider line up and tighter product lines.
There are at least a dozen strong themes they could roll out. Perhaps if they did that then there would be an army for everyman & people would have far less reason grumble about alien races on spindly legs with over sized guns with a hodge podge arsenal.
I can live with SM and prolly IG, the rest of the armies i find totally uninspiring in the main.
Ok, time for some on-topicness (Shock horror!)
Really, if GW somehow managed to do an army that fit every small groups ideals, the company would melt down. You cannot just roll out another dozen armies, and of all companies that wouldn't. GW is at the top. They probably wouldn't if they could.
That is new fluff, 12 times over,
12 new model ranges (Considering one model take around 1-2 years to perfect),
12 new army books (Try to make that unique..)
12 new angry things for space marines to shout
12 new ideas (Which would probably be the hardest part. Let's be honest, they've gone as far as swarming space bug dinosaurs, they must be running low..)
12 new areas of grumbling. Nothings perfect...
There's room for a dozen new themes without too much cross over. I would add 1 strong side at a time give a chance to bed in.
1 a pure Mech side
this could be split into two factions the royalists and the workers ( bit like the IG split NATO & RAMBO ) Now the Royalist are new plastic , small in number (low tooling cost) but with some Uber mechwarriors / dreadnoughts & HQ's . Design and artwork = Stunning Chrome and white ?
The workers , Humana Mechanica ( human grease monkey mechanics ) have a wide selection of mechs. They make their living servicing mechs of all the other sides. So they have a huge Mad Max style range to choose from...every mech in the 40k universe ( making use of plastic already in production) ...they are the dent and scratch brigade. Urban matt black or sandrust brown.
you need at least shiny new 1 HQ and 1 Royalist mech/dreadnought as a leader. The rest can be made from the mechanic. you could , if you want have a side of 100% royalist mechs. So there we have it , a new army and a totally new theme for minimum tooling costs. Fluff ? well they live on the outer arms of the galaxy , near a jump gate that allows them to receive incoming shipments of mech warriors for spares or repairs.
If the army is popular , then they can expand the royalists range of chrome n white mechs & fill it out with a few more oily mechanics.
all you need is a box with a dozens mechanics in it and 1 HQ to get you going...any mech warrior in the universe is your for the taking. A modders dream.
That took me all of 5 minutes.
This is a strongly themed army , 100% mech warriors of all descriptions , mechanics armed with pistols & spanners, HQs armed with repair skills and ranged fire skills.
The fluff gives good cause why its a hodge podge army , but the mix n match is solely confined to mech warrior style vehicles. No other units allowed.
Codex allows you to heap weapons on a single mech warrior , explodes if destroyed.
swuk wrote:There's room for a dozen new themes without too much cross over. I would add 1 strong side at a time give a chance to bed in.
1 a pure Mech side
this could be split into two factions the royalists and the workers ( bit like the IG split NATO & RAMBO ) Now the Royalist are new plastic , small in number (low tooling cost) but with some Uber mechwarriors / dreadnoughts & HQ's . Design and artwork = Stunning Chrome and white ?
The workers , Humana Mechanica ( human grease monkey mechanics ) have a wide selection of mechs. They make their living servicing mechs of all the other sides. So they have a huge Mad Max style range to choose from...every mech in the 40k universe ( making use of plastic already in production) ...they are the dent and scratch brigade. Urban matt black or sandrust brown.
you need at least shiny new 1 HQ and 1 Royalist mech/dreadnought as a leader. The rest can be made from the mechanic. you could , if you want have a side of 100% royalist mechs. So there we have it , a new army and a totally new theme for minimum tooling costs. Fluff ? well they live on the outer arms of the galaxy , near a jump gate that allows them to receive incoming shipments of mech warriors for spares or repairs.
If the army is popular , then they can expand the royalists range of mechs & fill it out with a few more mechanics.
all you need is a box with a dozens mechanics in it and 1 HQ to get you going...any mech warrior in the universe is your for the taking.
That took me all of 5 minutes.
Wow, way to blatantly plagiarize existing material.
Joetaco wrote:imperium doesn't invent new things all the time; similar shapes add cohesion to the army. Different shapes are like different colors; you can't have them all in anything without it looking bad. Idk know anything about fashion, but i know your not supposed to mix patterns (or at least not wear plaid with stripes and spots)
-Joetaco
and off topic again are you telling me a plaid shirt and camouflage pants arent fashionable...well feth
swuk wrote:There's room for a dozen new themes without too much cross over. I would add 1 strong side at a time give a chance to bed in.
1 a pure Mech side
this could be split into two factions the royalists and the workers ( bit like the IG split NATO & RAMBO ) Now the Royalist are new plastic , small in number (low tooling cost) but with some Uber mechwarriors / dreadnoughts & HQ's . Design and artwork = Stunning Chrome and white ?
The workers , Humana Mechanica ( human grease monkey mechanics ) have a wide selection of mechs. They make their living servicing mechs of all the other sides. So they have a huge Mad Max style range to choose from...every mech in the 40k universe ( making use of plastic already in production) ...they are the dent and scratch brigade. Urban matt black or sandrust brown.
you need at least shiny new 1 HQ and 1 Royalist mech/dreadnought as a leader. The rest can be made from the mechanic. you could , if you want have a side of 100% royalist mechs. So there we have it , a new army and a totally new theme for minimum tooling costs. Fluff ? well they live on the outer arms of the galaxy , near a jump gate that allows them to receive incoming shipments of mech warriors for spares or repairs.
If the army is popular , then they can expand the royalists range of chrome n white mechs & fill it out with a few more oily mechanics.
all you need is a box with a dozens mechanics in it and 1 HQ to get you going...any mech warrior in the universe is your for the taking. A modders dream.
That took me all of 5 minutes.
This is a strongly themed army , 100% mech warriors of all descriptions , mechanics armed with pistols & spanners, HQs armed with repair skills and ranged fire skills.
The fluff gives good cause why its a hodge podge army , but the mix n match is solely confined to mech warrior style vehicles. No other units allowed.
Codex allows you to heap weapons on a single mech warrior , explodes if destroyed.
Did I say ideas? I was meant to say original and good ideas..
And you're ignoring the ENTIRE re-writing of all fluff to introduce these new armies, 12 new struggling factions can't simply appear..
ref None of that even remotely resembles Mechwarrior!
Its not meant to. But there nothing stopping GW from creating a pure mechwarrior side as you mentioned is there ?
My Chrome Royalist led Greasy Mad MAx Mechanics Mech warrior army is very different form Anything in the game at the moment. It is also poles apart from an Iconic Mechwarrior side
GW could introduce both if it so wished. This would adds two strongly themed armies to the mix. They would play very differently. There heavy armour making them realy tough to take down as they foot slog relentlessly across the board. Fire power maybe nothing special , staying power the best mechanical units in the game.
Its a good idea , and could be made to work with little difficulty. It would widen the appeal to players who want something different from humans, spindly legged aliens or alien claw rush.
There is a lot of scope with the term " mech warrior " tin box on 2 legs , maybe 4 the world is your oyster design wise.
No. It couldn't work. As it has already been stated, a race like this has never been mentioned in the fluff and you can't just rewrite the fluff on a whim to include an overdone cliche of an army.
Oh man, this is hilarious. He argues for original thinking on GW's part, puts forth an unoriginal idea, and then starts advocating for different game mechanics for his unoriginal army to justify it.
coolyo294 wrote:No. It couldn't work. As it has already been stated, a race like this has never been mentioned in the fluff and you can't just rewrite the fluff on a whim to include an overdone cliche of an army.
As i said , its an outer world colony. It does not play any large role in the big scheme of things. The back log of fluff is unchanged.
The galaxy is a big place , there are lots of shadowy corners that little is spoken off. The mech service station and research lab is located on the fringes.
The madmax mech army is just recycled war damaged kit
The Iconic Mech army is stuff the royalist have been researching and developing. It is not used by other races ...as yet.
its easy enough to implement , a bit of creativity goes along way.
You're saying that an entire race has just been hiding in a corner, chilling, undiscovered by several massive, expanding and curious empires for thousands of years, and have remained undiscovered 100% for all that time and have suddenly gone
"Hey, we're a tiny weak race-lets take on the galaxy!"
It is not at all easy to implement.
And the Imperium have already got a record of the entire galaxy, if you will turn your attention to the Space Marine codex.
What'd I say-There WILL be grumbling, ideas AREN'T this easy, fluff will NOT allow it..
You're saying that an entire race has just been hiding in a corner, chilling, undiscovered by several massive, expanding and curious empires for thousands of years, and have remained undiscovered 100% for all that time and have suddenly gone
"Hey, we're a tiny weak race-lets take on the galaxy!"
It is not at all easy to implement.
And the Imperium have already got a record of the entire galaxy, if you will turn your attention to the Space Marine codex.
What'd I say-There WILL be grumbling, ideas AREN'T this easy, fluff will NOT allow it..
You're saying that an entire race has just been hiding in a corner, chilling, undiscovered by several massive, expanding and curious empires for thousands of years, and have remained undiscovered 100% for all that time and have suddenly gone
"Hey, we're a tiny weak race-lets take on the galaxy!"
It is not at all easy to implement.
And the Imperium have already got a record of the entire galaxy, if you will turn your attention to the Space Marine codex.
What'd I say-There WILL be grumbling, ideas AREN'T this easy, fluff will NOT allow it..
Tau?
They didn't really take anyone on, and that wasn't a sudden decision to emerge, that was a freak of nature and time and space and doctor who shiz.
You're saying that an entire race has just been hiding in a corner, chilling, undiscovered by several massive, expanding and curious empires for thousands of years, and have remained undiscovered 100% for all that time and have suddenly gone
"Hey, we're a tiny weak race-lets take on the galaxy!"
It is not at all easy to implement.
And the Imperium have already got a record of the entire galaxy, if you will turn your attention to the Space Marine codex.
What'd I say-There WILL be grumbling, ideas AREN'T this easy, fluff will NOT allow it..
Tau?
They didn't really take anyone on, and that wasn't a sudden decision to emerge, that was a freak of nature and time and space and doctor who shiz.
Just saying... "Tiny empires in your galactic backyard? It's more likely than you think."
Monster Rain wrote:No, they haven't remained undiscovered because they work as handymen for others.
Exactly
these guys are cheap labor , they buy , sell & trade scrap parts to all sides " Everywhere there's a battle there's business " is their moto
Its only one system . But they have enough kit to field an army on the odd occasion. They bend with the wind , one day they may get a call to fight on behalf of the Space marines , another time it could be for the enemies of the Space Marines.
They dont see a lot of action at first ( what newly introduced army does ? ) but given time , the mechanics come scrap dealers are starting to make a name for themselves.
Except you have a problem.
Out of all the races i can think of... 3 maybe 4 races that would use them.
Tau, possibly Eldar, Dark Eldar, and possibly Ordo Xenos Inq.
All the other races would want to destroy them or enslave them and even those races that would use them may want to kill them soon after.
A mercenary army will fight anyone anywhere...if the price is right.
Using the story technique i have used here , it is possible to beef up the army choices without having to rewrite vast tracts of fluff.
Their codex strength and the $ retail cost can be used to make them popular for beginners or a niche choice for experts or anywhere in between.
For die hard traditionalist not wanting to see their armies over run by the latest kids on the block , these lesser , but fun to play armies can be tweaked to be slightly uncompetitive in tournament play. A dozen so lesser races can be introduced to 40k. Wider appeal , more players , more venues etc etc Table topgaming always struggles vs a cup of coffee and a mouse. MAybe another gaming system will come out on top, who knows . Nothing stays the same for ever that much is sure. I think 40k is beginning to show its age.
swuk wrote:A mercenary army will fight anyone anywhere...if the price is right.
Using the story technique i have used hear , it is possible to beef up the army choices without having to rewrite vast tracts of fluff. Their codex strength and the $ retail cost can be used to make them popular for beginners or a niche choice for experts or anywhere in between.
It's no longer a case of who they will fight for, it's a case of some part of the Emperors countless armies going "Hey, they don't show soulless devotion to our master, kill them with either tanks, virus bombs fire or general anger!" They dont do mercenaries, because they don't need mercenaries. These guys entire faction would be destroyed after one loss, if they are this minimal. Face it, the idea sucks.
swuk wrote:A mercenary army will fight anyone anywhere...if the price is right.
Using the story technique i have used here , it is possible to beef up the army choices without having to rewrite vast tracts of fluff.
Their codex strength and the $ retail cost can be used to make them popular for beginners or a niche choice for experts or anywhere in between.
For die hard traditionalist not wanting to see their armies over run by the latest kids on the block , these lesser , but fun to play armies can be tweaked to be slightly uncompetitive in tournament play. A dozen so lesser races can be introduced to 40k. Wider appeal , more players , more venues etc etc Table topgaming always struggles vs a cup of coffee and a mouse. MAybe another gaming system will come out on top, who knows . Nothing stays the same for ever that much is sure. I think 40k is beginning to show its age.
Your story technigue fails in 40k.
It doesn't matter how willing they are to fight. Unless they serve only the god-emperor of man kind humanity will attack them and unless they serve only chaos, chaos will attack them etc etc.
For die hard traditionalist not wanting to see their armies over run by the latest kids on the block , these lesser , but fun to play armies can be tweaked to be slightly uncompetitive in tournament play. A dozen or so lesser races can be introduced to 40k. Wider appeal , more players , more venues etc etc Table topgaming always struggles vs a cup of coffee and a mouse. MAybe another gaming system will come out on top, who knows . Nothing stays the same for ever that much is sure. I think 40k is beginning to show its age.
The smack down you speak of can take place on tournament days :-D
While the might races battle it our for supremacy , the smaller ones on the fringes sometimes get in the way.
Congratulations on failing...
I'm adding you to my ignore list because i believe you are trolling and i don't trust myself not to do something silly.
Goodbye.
ref washing underpants , its the oily mechanics who do the servicing. Its the role of the lesser races to serve the greater ones. These lesser races scarcely get a mention in the fluff.
Did Nixon mention his barber ?
Keeping inline with fluff can be very important. But sometimes it can box you in a corner. Its a royal pain when rules editions get updated, and also when codex's are lagging.
Its a delicate balance between pandering to customers and dictating with out listening. Its the same with online servers, but with GW games it kind of happens in slow motion.
I don't see the appeal of this "mechanic" army. it seems like another trite overused idea, but unlike 40k armies it doesn't have that one redeeming factor that makes it more than "mad max in space".
Sure a new idea can be neat, but we've been playing elves, orks and space mans for a long time in alot of different games because they're good ideas. Why change whats working?
Honestly if you don't like 40k and think you can do better; do it. Put up or shut up. 40k has books, video games, tabletop games and movies. Pick one and implent your "better" ideas.
I'll even help: http://www.freewargamesrules.co.uk/ i frequent this website; its a place to post up your own games.
Make a better 40k, don't just complain about it.
The introduction of new races has to be done with great care. Even the lesser races.
Shaving / reshaping of plastic is easier. This is an option open to GW production and modelers alike
I have highlighted quite a few issues where i feel GW has come up short (some untidy armies & untidy models ). The plastic only gets as good as we the buyers demand it to be. GW needs to be more proactive in getting feedback from its customers. You cant please everyone , but you can pee of a lot of people if you dont listen and act, or dont act without careful planning.
At the end of the day GW is in charge of production sales and distribution. But that never prevented a company from shooting itself in the foot. With the recession hanging around for a good while longer yet i hope GW has a real good think about where it wants to be in another 20 years time.
For me , I hope these sees the introduction of new armies, with look and play better than the current ones. I also hope a few tweaks to their present line up will tidy things up. The more armies you have, the more sharply defined they can be in terms of playing style, visual style and other aspects. That's how i think it should pan out. Its a long thread , but reading through the good bits has got me thinking.
swuk wrote:
I have highlighted quite a few issues where i feel GW has come up short (some untidy armies & untidy models ). The plastic only gets as good as we the buyers demand it to be. GW needs to be more proactive in getting feedback from its customers. You cant please everyone , but you can pee of a lot of people if you dont listen and act, or dont act without careful planning.
then
now
i'd say they're definately trying to improve some of their old sculpts give time everything will look like this. As far as new armies go, all it means is a non space marine player will have to wait even longer for their "mad max in space" army to get an update. Aside from that the fluff nuts will get pissed when armies suddenly starting spawning out of no where. Sure the demiurge, mechanicus or exodite might become there own armies one day; but i bet i will be way before the mechwarriors come from mechanics union.
DrownedRat117 wrote:
That is new fluff, 12 times over,
12 new model ranges (Considering one model take around 1-2 years to perfect),
12 new army books (Try to make that unique..)
12 new angry things for space marines to shout
12 new ideas (Which would probably be the hardest part. Let's be honest, they've gone as far as swarming space bug dinosaurs, they must be running low..)
12 new areas of grumbling. Nothings perfect...
I wish I contributed to this thread sooner... That said, lol.
Seriously though, my forgiving factors for GW's (otherwise) BS way of running things, is their product and fluff. I love their fluff, and the models are extremely customizable.
Then again, I love the Cadian models, so something may be wrong with me.
Well, reading this thread was quite enjoyable , OP needs to understand his opinions are not facts, and no one is forcing him to buy WH40K.
I personally love the fluff and I think the IG tanks fit perfectly in the army with its WW I/WW II theme.
Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:I'm not sure what to think of this thread
but my mind is surely blown ref his writing style and 3+ edits are really strange
Yes, I can't imagine what he did in his 17 edits of his 2nd post
that left it still unreadable
I've been inspired by Jimsolo to try and give some imput.
First of all, I have not read half of your posts, swuk, because the formatting is just so...caddywhompus. Bolding certain parts of the sentence that don't need to be make for a very confusing read.
I like the asthetic of the 40k armies. I think one of the reasons they chose to design off of history is because it's familiar. People like familiar. People buy familiar. The human race should be the MOST familiar. Give the people what they want.
I would like to see more 40k armies as well, but I don't think the mercenaries idea is worth expanding on. In 2 minutes of thought, I came up with a scenario where a large portion of the Empire has been rediscovered quite suddenly, but they are not loyal to the Emperor. The Imperium is still larger by far, but this second empire is large enough and strong enough to wage war. Make of that what you will.
You know I have to give mods some credit for having some sense of humor, otherwise we would be toasted so baddly by them by now (yes I just pulled a major grammar no-no, like the double negative just now)
huge ass missles to do what they do. Just like in the real world the Imperium's military support each other...there is no need for the space marines to have Leman russ tanks and manticore missles it would just be over kill for them especially because if they even needed them they could just call the 
) and if that happened I would promptly go to imperial guard and never look back
don't be putting us dropped children in the same category as him 
