So I think that Helverins are better support for an admech gunline than Warglaives. The shooters have easy access to rerolls versus targets that fly, and they provide some solid shooting that makes up for not bringing onagers.
The warglaives ... they can fight, but they aren't good for screening and they are just too flimy versus other melee targets and their attack profiles, while good, struggle to get to the targets they want. Str 8, -3, flat3 is an awesome damage profile, but you get 4 3+ swings with no rerolls if you aren't taking KRAST. If you do take KRAST, there are some odd situations where you might put the +1/+2 damage versus 10W/Titanic on the gallant. Like when your opponent has a baneblade or a knight, you can supercharge the damage output of a KRAST gallant.
The Gallant is great for helping admech since it absolutely must be shot and it is tough for its points. I would say just go TARANIS for the durability and the repair synergy with your techpriest. I could even see mark of the ommissiah here and double double down on your knight regaining wounds and soaking fire.
The Helverins can hide with the dakkabots and shoot and get fixes from the techpriest. The good thing about your list is that you don't have much that eats a lot of CP, so you can afford to go for resurrect rolls on the knight.
Overall, knights as admech allies are much much better than they were. And a knight detachment can adjust to your opponent in ways other detachments cant thanks to exalted court and the relic buying.
Wulfey wrote: So I think that Helverins are better support for an admech gunline than Warglaives. The shooters have easy access to rerolls versus targets that fly, and they provide some solid shooting that makes up for not bringing onagers.
The warglaives ... they can fight, but they aren't good for screening and they are just too flimy versus other melee targets and their attack profiles, while good, struggle to get to the targets they want. Str 8, -3, flat3 is an awesome damage profile, but you get 4 3+ swings with no rerolls if you aren't taking KRAST. If you do take KRAST, there are some odd situations where you might put the +1/+2 damage versus 10W/Titanic on the gallant. Like when your opponent has a baneblade or a knight, you can supercharge the damage output of a KRAST gallant.
The Gallant is great for helping admech since it absolutely must be shot and it is tough for its points. I would say just go TARANIS for the durability and the repair synergy with your techpriest. I could even see mark of the ommissiah here and double double down on your knight regaining wounds and soaking fire.
The Helverins can hide with the dakkabots and shoot and get fixes from the techpriest. The good thing about your list is that you don't have much that eats a lot of CP, so you can afford to go for resurrect rolls on the knight.
Overall, knights as admech allies are much much better than they were. And a knight detachment can adjust to your opponent in ways other detachments cant thanks to exalted court and the relic buying.
Only issue is if I swap the warglaives to Helverins I’m over 2k. I would have to drop a robot. What would you then spend the 96 or so free points on? More Rangers to provide additional firebase or a few hoplites to provide a melee screen?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or are you suggesting I drop 1/2 dunecrawlers? If so what would I spend the spare points on?
I'm really having trouble justifying running admech/knights.
It seems to me that any role admech would be brought to fill is a role that knights can handle by themselves.
Gallants, helverins, and warglaives seem to fill in all the niches really well.
Looking to get some CPs for your knights? Why get admech battalions when you can get IG battalions? Point for point more durable due to wound count and put out commensurate firepower per point spent via company commander orders.
Spending 35p for 5 Rangers vs spending 40p for 10 Guardsmen.
So ultimately, what does admech do that can't be done better by another faction?
Wulfey wrote: So I think that Helverins are better support for an admech gunline than Warglaives. The shooters have easy access to rerolls versus targets that fly, and they provide some solid shooting that makes up for not bringing onagers.
The warglaives ... they can fight, but they aren't good for screening and they are just too flimy versus other melee targets and their attack profiles, while good, struggle to get to the targets they want. Str 8, -3, flat3 is an awesome damage profile, but you get 4 3+ swings with no rerolls if you aren't taking KRAST. If you do take KRAST, there are some odd situations where you might put the +1/+2 damage versus 10W/Titanic on the gallant. Like when your opponent has a baneblade or a knight, you can supercharge the damage output of a KRAST gallant.
The Gallant is great for helping admech since it absolutely must be shot and it is tough for its points. I would say just go TARANIS for the durability and the repair synergy with your techpriest. I could even see mark of the ommissiah here and double double down on your knight regaining wounds and soaking fire.
The Helverins can hide with the dakkabots and shoot and get fixes from the techpriest. The good thing about your list is that you don't have much that eats a lot of CP, so you can afford to go for resurrect rolls on the knight.
Overall, knights as admech allies are much much better than they were. And a knight detachment can adjust to your opponent in ways other detachments cant thanks to exalted court and the relic buying.
Only issue is if I swap the warglaives to Helverins I’m over 2k. I would have to drop a robot. What would you then spend the 96 or so free points on? More Rangers to provide additional firebase or a few hoplites to provide a melee screen?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or are you suggesting I drop 1/2 dunecrawlers? If so what would I spend the spare points on?
I don't think trading 1 robot away and putting a stormspear on the gallant or filling out the skitarii squads is a bad trade. 5 robots is enough to kill what you need killed. Having a few more bodies around wouldn't be bad. They get rerolls to hit. The helverins will provide your list with a shooting profile it lacks to make up for the missing robot. Warglaive shooting just isn't reliable enough.
Wulfey wrote: So I think that Helverins are better support for an admech gunline than Warglaives. The shooters have easy access to rerolls versus targets that fly, and they provide some solid shooting that makes up for not bringing onagers.
The warglaives ... they can fight, but they aren't good for screening and they are just too flimy versus other melee targets and their attack profiles, while good, struggle to get to the targets they want. Str 8, -3, flat3 is an awesome damage profile, but you get 4 3+ swings with no rerolls if you aren't taking KRAST. If you do take KRAST, there are some odd situations where you might put the +1/+2 damage versus 10W/Titanic on the gallant. Like when your opponent has a baneblade or a knight, you can supercharge the damage output of a KRAST gallant.
The Gallant is great for helping admech since it absolutely must be shot and it is tough for its points. I would say just go TARANIS for the durability and the repair synergy with your techpriest. I could even see mark of the ommissiah here and double double down on your knight regaining wounds and soaking fire.
The Helverins can hide with the dakkabots and shoot and get fixes from the techpriest. The good thing about your list is that you don't have much that eats a lot of CP, so you can afford to go for resurrect rolls on the knight.
Overall, knights as admech allies are much much better than they were. And a knight detachment can adjust to your opponent in ways other detachments cant thanks to exalted court and the relic buying.
Only issue is if I swap the warglaives to Helverins I’m over 2k. I would have to drop a robot. What would you then spend the 96 or so free points on? More Rangers to provide additional firebase or a few hoplites to provide a melee screen?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or are you suggesting I drop 1/2 dunecrawlers? If so what would I spend the spare points on?
I don't think trading 1 robot away and putting a stormspear on the gallant or filling out the skitarii squads is a bad trade. 5 robots is enough to kill what you need killed. Having a few more bodies around wouldn't be bad. They get rerolls to hit. The helverins will provide your list with a shooting profile it lacks to make up for the missing robot. Warglaive shooting just isn't reliable enough.
Cool, so something like the below. Give or take stubbers, troops etc.
Hmm that looks quite fun. Think I’ll give it a whirl. Cheers for the input
LexOdin9 wrote: I'm really having trouble justifying running admech/knights.
It seems to me that any role admech would be brought to fill is a role that knights can handle by themselves.
Gallants, helverins, and warglaives seem to fill in all the niches really well.
Looking to get some CPs for your knights? Why get admech battalions when you can get IG battalions? Point for point more durable due to wound count and put out commensurate firepower per point spent via company commander orders.
Spending 35p for 5 Rangers vs spending 40p for 10 Guardsmen.
So ultimately, what does admech do that can't be done better by another faction?
Really? I have the opposite problem. I cannot think of any way to run Knights but AdMech/Guard/Knights.
Alpha strike. AdMech can apply huge turn one pressure, tying up or removing key threats to your Knights.
I find Helverins over-specialized to kill T6 enemies. And Dragoons do everything Warglaives do, but better. Still. (I would use Guardsmen, Rangers, or Electro-Priests against infantry, not a Warglaive.)
Also, I still think a melee-focused Warden is better than a Gallant. The problem with the Gallant is its limited flexibility. You have to get it into melee combat, but melee combat is ironically where it is most vulnerable.
I believe I'm confused as the rest seems to be heading on.
The whole purpose taking up allies was to gain options you didn't have. Why you take ad mch and why you take knights?
These simple questions in my mind create a big issue.
A) seems like the logical pick was Cawl with Robots and melee knight. But I'm not convinced
B) if we try to take Dragoons etc we need shooting knight . Somehow I don't see how to make it work for me.
C) if I aim for only 2 detachments I can't pick Mars nor invest so many points in Cawl for buffing Robots.
Picking up a super heavy detachments I can on!y see helverins working for me so my default list would replace helverins for spam and antiair issues vs onagers. Knight helverins 3 CP and switch onagers. In my mind that is. Unless you building a focused list or consider Icarus and helverins antihorde .
I can't find still a good combination taking advantage of ad mech and knights. Changing to dakka knight seems a bad option for me since I still consider if we want dakka Cawl star provides easier and better pew pew.
So melee option knight was a part of my decision to pick knight ally. Durable melee option drawing tons of fire . So your enemy let's some other units alone or actually make a Cawl star work.
Still not have a list. If I used Robots I would use Cawl and two onagers neutrons not Icarus. So far in my mind .
For 1750 points I'd go for two detachments stygies and kinghts.
For 2000 3* detachments
I am thinking Stygies for alpha strike (undecided on whether or not I want to commit to converting drills), Guard for bodies and indirect artillery, and either BA or a Knight for beta strike.
If I take a Knight, then I have another decision: Free Blade Warden (Legendary Hero, Haunted by Failure or , Weary Machine Spirit) or Raven Crusader? Super-heavy Auxiliary detachment; not convinced the Armiger tax is worth getting the Household tradition and 3 CP.
Though the downside to Haunted by Failure is that it means I almost always want Paragon, Mark, or Sanctuary, since Endless Fury doesn't work whenever I fail the leadership test. At the same time, Taranis is quite nice if I just want to resurrect my Knight.
I do agree with Yoda79 that if we're doing the alpha strike thing, a shooting Knight makes the most sense so you can make an immediate impact turn one and then have both fighting and shooting options after that.
Oh, and one more thing. Has anyone considered Taranis Errant with Fury of Mars? That thing is sweet. 48" always-melta is incredibly high damage output.
Would your original idea of a warden be the best compromise. Let’s him shoot on his way in with the para gauntlet. A lot cheaper on CP than the blood angels slam bros too probably
Yeah. But I am torn on how to run him. Back when I thought Raven could be used in either shooting or fighting phases, it was a clear winner. Now... Freeblade? The least painful burden combo is Haunted by Failure and Weary Machine Spirit, but even that can be really bad. Taranis? Tough to sell me on the stratagem. Raven? Too shootey. Krast? Too fightey.
Also, here's a funny list I was tinkering around with:
Elite - 374 11x Fulgurite Electro-Priest - Electroleech Stave
11x Fulgurite Electro-Priest - Electroleech Stave
Fast Attack - 272 4x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Total: 1995 points 16 CP (-4)
Basically, embark 11 Electro-Priests and an Enginseer into your transports and infiltrate (2 CP). Hide the Enginseer behind the vehicle repairing, and your Electro-Priests can come out and fight twice (3 CP) once you get close enough. Dragoons also can infiltrate (1 CP) and charge with Doctrina (1 CP). The Slamguinius can Forlorn Fury (2 CP) and Descent of Angels (1 CP) fight twice (3 CP). So... spend 17 CP right off the bat. LOL.
This is just a thought exercise though. Not sure what to make of it, but there's a crapton of mobility in this list. Not too much customization though. You can cut one unit of Infantry to take 2x12 EPs, I guess.
I consider this for 1750! Taking advantage of the best possible cheap combos. Knights dakka and durability ad mech infiltration and healing. That's should be the comination. Taranis cause you can revive and use from distance all your knight detach.
I'm just brainstorming. Haha. I am not even sure where to begin to convert two Drills. I also need to paint 20 Electro-Priests; I plan to make 30 though.
By the way, can anyone with a Drill please give me dimensions?
As always the list can be customized depending on playstyle and actual models you got. I initially made the list three detachments so you could change the battalion with guard if you decided to take guard as well. You make Cawl with robots and onagers spearhead and take a battalion as you like it. You can also remove the transport and or s weapons from troops and take what you believe best.
I gave two groups plasma to get them into transport and test them as support where need and because this list highly needs to go first . So imsitched a bit then list and now you get inside the transport wnginseer and two vang. Seems that only way doing so.
Simple change remove s weapons from troops and take one more robot.
Raven for options but as with the rest of options warlord heirlooms etc even if you I'll take helverins or warglaives should be decided almost /game meaning you need to consider tour rules meta etc.
Ideasweasel wrote: So do we think that the issue of warlord using “heirlooms of the household” and “exalted court” will stay as it is until Chapter approved?
Ie. If I want to use a forgeworld knight I can’t use those strats on him as it specifies Questoris/Dominus only
Also would tournaments let that slide in the mean time if you used an Atropos or would they hardline that?
I doubt theyd be that lenient. Some combos can be pretty tough, so disallowing them on FW knights kinda makes sense.
My take on the Admech + SHD. Not sure how well the Preceptor is going to help the Armigers, but as far as I can tell rerolling 1s is somewhat good. Especialy it's rerolling shooting and fighting hit rolls (as there's not differentiation in the rule).
The alternative I consider is to ditch one sniper squad for tesco Skitarii and getting rid of the Onager for another Helverin instead. However, as there's no anti-psyker on the list I hope them to be blown by Arquebusi, and 6 shots are a way more reliable way to do so then 4. Thoughts?
This is the most bog standard knight list I could imagine. It doesn't feel very optimized at all. But it went 4-1 at a bigtime GT.
EDIT: there were 3 lists with 1x castellans in the top 8. More castellans than shadowswords.
EDIT2: upon reviewing the top lists, I think that the RAVEN castellan can do the work of my dakkabots. Also, my MARS list would be pretty afraid of that castellan. If I get first turn I can pour the entire 5 dakkabot volley into the castellan and it might or might not die. It can have a 3++. If I go second ... erm ... that thing can kill a lot of dakkabots.
Knights have always been strong; they're a dominant strategy that capitalizes on one primary strength, just like Green Tide or Poxwalker spam. Thing is, as they do better, people will begin to bring more anti-tank, and they will plummet like a rock.
EDIT: What does everyone think about this list?
Spoiler:
Blood Angels Battalion Detachment - 499
HQ - 334 1x Captain w/ Jump Pack - Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, Relic: Angel's Wing, Death Visions of Sanguinius
1x Mephiston - Powers: Quickening, Shield of Sanguinius, Wings of Sanguinius
1x Techmarine - Boltgun, Chainsword, Conversion Beamer, Relic: Veritas Vitae
Elite - 323 19x Fulgurite Electro-Priest - Electroleech Stave
Fast Attack - 408 6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Total: 1999 points 18 CP (-4)
Basically, there's an overwhelming number of assault threats in this army. Aggressively deploy Scouts to control the opponent's deployment, infiltrate Dragoons and Electro-Priests on turn one. Get Mephiston to the front with Wings of Sanguinius and Slamguinius with Forlorn Fury.
The Commander with the swag camps in the artillery park with Master of Ordnance, 2 Enginseers, and the Techmarine.
3x5 Rangers, 3x10 Guardsmen, and 3x Mortar led by the nobody Company Commander screen your Basilisks.
I'm kinda out of the loop on the knight codex. So can the solo knight Castelan that was in both Top2 lists take a WL trait or artifact? Or is he just there to get pumped with stratagems?
One Knight in a Lance gets character rules. A Knight can be made into a character and given a WLT for 1CP; 2 for 3CP. And they can get 1/2 relics with 1/3CP as usual.
Castellans pretty much always want to take their specialized weapon relic.
He can be given trait and artifact for 1CP each(strategem). And of course he gets strategems including house ones. All he misses by being super heavy aux det is house trait(so in raven can advance and shoot without penalty both assault and heavy weapons. Somehow not rapid fire weapons though not that any knight has those but weird wording for the trait. Could be made easier like "knight can advance and fire all weapons and doesnt' suffer -1 to hit for advancing" and not have to have to clarify heavy weapons under it in FAQ)
Suzuteo wrote: Can I see what lists we're talking about? I've been out of the loop travelling between the US and Japan.
But I am surprised people are going with a lone Castellan over a lone Crusader.
Guess they feel they want knight to bust vehicles and Castellan is pretty darn good. It's also awesome if you expect to run into plenty of shadowswords seeing that thing can literally take a hit from shadowsword and blow the little one out of the sky in return. Other knights less so.
That thing blows up repulsor AND leman russ in one go with pretty good chances and that's without accounting meltas, shoulder cannons and missile. That's anti-tank firepower crusader doesn't offer. Of course less good against hordes but that's what other models are up for.
Not convinced that a Castellan is preferred to a Shadowsword. Against a Shadowsword, sure. But it's overkill for virtually everything else; it feels like taking a sledgehammer to a staple.
Anyhow, my thoughts move more and more toward infantry-heavy lists with lots of alpha striking power, backed by indirect artillery that is hidden out of LOS.
Suzuteo wrote: Not convinced that a Castellan is preferred to a Shadowsword. Against a Shadowsword, sure. But it's overkill for virtually everything else; it feels like taking a sledgehammer to a staple.
Anyhow, my thoughts move more and more toward infantry-heavy lists with lots of alpha striking power, backed by indirect artillery that is hidden out of LOS.
Dunno. Unlike shadowsword castellan will be blowing 2 vehicles a turn. Shadowsword seems to be pretty popular and that is the one more overkill as it can only really blow one vehicle a turn(well okay more when they are like killa kans but those aren't all that important worries).
Suzuteo wrote: One Knight in a Lance gets character rules. A Knight can be made into a character and given a WLT for 1CP; 2 for 3CP. And they can get 1/2 relics with 1/3CP as usual.
Castellans pretty much always want to take their specialized weapon relic.
Does that mean I can take a forgeworld knight in a lance. Take a guard Battalion kurovs commander warlord etc and still have my forgeworld knight get the 4++ trait?
I m having trouble understanding many of the posts here seriously .
You talking about a Castelan that requires 600+ points in an ad mech list ! Plz go post to knights list cause 500 points in list does not make it ad mech. Seriously and even if it does it's not what this threat is all about.
I want to get my ad mech playing and use an ally that can full fill roles in my army I don't have. I'm already thinking with transports ad mech got a good chance solo but I wanted the durability in pushing forward and the gun fire magnet a knight provides.
Ally not knight list thanks.
As for suzuteo list sure I like the concept but you v turned from one point to another. From a heavy ad mech vehicle list to an almost troops list.
The issue I got with our Dragoons priest plan is clearly surviving. Priest die from any gun. Any and with so many units you most likely gonna go second. I'd prefer to switch to helverins in my list and remove the Icarus to get a solid 12 man priest inside transport. Seems more valid. It so far I can't seem to take advantage of all lists together. I'm understand you believe on basilisks but I can't depend on them. They don't deliver that damage we need with bs 4+ and no other option. What makes ad mech gun line top is Cawl reroll all hit/miss else I'd go for knight list. As far as gun line arty is the issue we talking.
So a average 1000 points Cawl robots onagers will deliver every game with options and not so many CP. Using also healing double shooting +2 shooting wrath of Mars covering any need vs any list . Why would I play ad mech without this when it's atm one of the best possible choises cheap gunlines that even if you take Castelan will not deal with air ground hordes etc same effective or when you need mortals spam. So as I see this if you decide ad mech Cawl star is a must for me after many many consideration.
Now there are custodes guard knights all able to bring to the table lots of things. But vs a serious air army with -1 to hit your guard knights etc won't make the result you want. And atm I'm considering a list for tournaments.
If you go Castelan then take full knights and a stock graia battalion that's it . You win some loose some most likely win fun games and be hated from your friends but in a serious competition knight lists have been dealt with before!
You all know this yes you LL win games with not enough anti tank bla bla but.
Now surely each players playstyle needs to be accounted for. But I believe a single knight or a smaller Lance has potential to give nough protection to a Cawl star and with the use on transports to get a nice assault.
Yoda79 wrote: I m having trouble understanding many of the posts here seriously .
You talking about a Castelan that requires 600+ points in an ad mech list ! Plz go post to knights list cause 500 points in list does not make it ad mech. Seriously and even if it does it's not what this threat is all about.
I'm not sure how talking about the idea of supporting 1400 points of Ad Mech with 600 points of 1 Knight isn't relevant to a discussion on AdMech tactics...? You talk about wanting ways to cover some of the AdMech weaknesses via allies, so, this is a viable option.
Suzuteo wrote: One Knight in a Lance gets character rules. A Knight can be made into a character and given a WLT for 1CP; 2 for 3CP. And they can get 1/2 relics with 1/3CP as usual.
Castellans pretty much always want to take their specialized weapon relic.
Does that mean I can take a forgeworld knight in a lance. Take a guard Battalion kurovs commander warlord etc and still have my forgeworld knight get the 4++ trait?
He just can’t choose a relic to go along with it?
That sound about right
It depends.
You can only give the 2 Questoris Knight Magaera and Questoris Knight Styrix WL traits and relics via the stratagem - the other ones would have to be your Warlord in order to gain a trait and relic. This is due to the stratagems only affecting the Questoris and Dominus Knight Classes.
Suzuteo wrote: One Knight in a Lance gets character rules. A Knight can be made into a character and given a WLT for 1CP; 2 for 3CP. And they can get 1/2 relics with 1/3CP as usual.
Castellans pretty much always want to take their specialized weapon relic.
Does that mean I can take a forgeworld knight in a lance. Take a guard Battalion kurovs commander warlord etc and still have my forgeworld knight get the 4++ trait?
He just can’t choose a relic to go along with it?
That sound about right
If you have Imperial guard commander warlord then forgeworld knight will not get warlord trait just by having character by being warlord. You can make FW knight your warlord and have the trait but then IG commander cannot be warlord(and thus no 5+ CP regeneration) and need to pay 1 CP for kurov aquila.
Now you COULD give FW knight warlord trait by strategem but this only works like for 2 FW knights that have questor class so Styrix and MAgaera only. All cerastus knights etc cannot be given trait or relic by strategem so only way to have those on them is make them your warlord. Which removes that 5+ CP regeneration warlord trait as possibility.
I regard knights as admech. QUESTOR MECHANICUS is in the broader genre of admech. And competitive is dominated by RAVEN, KRAST, and TARANIS, which are all the mechanicus houses.
Suzuteo wrote: Not convinced that a Castellan is preferred to a Shadowsword. Against a Shadowsword, sure. But it's overkill for virtually everything else; it feels like taking a sledgehammer to a staple.
Anyhow, my thoughts move more and more toward infantry-heavy lists with lots of alpha striking power, backed by indirect artillery that is hidden out of LOS.
Dunno. Unlike shadowsword castellan will be blowing 2 vehicles a turn. Shadowsword seems to be pretty popular and that is the one more overkill as it can only really blow one vehicle a turn(well okay more when they are like killa kans but those aren't all that important worries).
And what happens if they go up against a list like the one I just posted, where there pretty much are no vehicles to blow up? Or less than 600 points worth of vehicles?
As for suzuteo list sure I like the concept but you v turned from one point to another. From a heavy ad mech vehicle list to an almost troops list.
I know. I'm just brainstorming.
Wulfey wrote: I regard knights as admech. QUESTOR MECHANICUS is in the broader genre of admech. And competitive is dominated by RAVEN, KRAST, and TARANIS, which are all the mechanicus houses.
Agreed. I consider Knights to be AdMech in the same way I consider Ogryn to be Guard.
Suzuteo wrote: Not convinced that a Castellan is preferred to a Shadowsword. Against a Shadowsword, sure. But it's overkill for virtually everything else; it feels like taking a sledgehammer to a staple.
Anyhow, my thoughts move more and more toward infantry-heavy lists with lots of alpha striking power, backed by indirect artillery that is hidden out of LOS.
Dunno. Unlike shadowsword castellan will be blowing 2 vehicles a turn. Shadowsword seems to be pretty popular and that is the one more overkill as it can only really blow one vehicle a turn(well okay more when they are like killa kans but those aren't all that important worries).
And what happens if they go up against a list like the one I just posted, where there pretty much are no vehicles to blow up? Or less than 600 points worth of vehicles?
You have harder time sure though 12 stomps isn't nothing to sniff at. And that possibility doesn't worry all that much shadowsword which is also not happy seeing hordes.
Of course not like there's not stuff like custodian bikes, eldar jetbikes of either type etc that you can shoot up that cawl's wrath doesn't mind shooting either.
Yoda79 wrote: I m having trouble understanding many of the posts here seriously .
You talking about a Castelan that requires 600+ points in an ad mech list ! Plz go post to knights list cause 500 points in list does not make it ad mech. Seriously and even if it does it's not what this threat is all about.
I'm not sure how talking about the idea of supporting 1400 points of Ad Mech with 600 points of 1 Knight isn't relevant to a discussion on AdMech tactics...? You talk about wanting ways to cover some of the AdMech weaknesses via allies, so, this is a viable option.
Suzuteo wrote: One Knight in a Lance gets character rules. A Knight can be made into a character and given a WLT for 1CP; 2 for 3CP. And they can get 1/2 relics with 1/3CP as usual.
Castellans pretty much always want to take their specialized weapon relic.
Does that mean I can take a forgeworld knight in a lance. Take a guard Battalion kurovs commander warlord etc and still have my forgeworld knight get the 4++ trait?
He just can’t choose a relic to go along with it?
That sound about right
It depends.
You can only give the 2 Questoris Knight Magaera and Questoris Knight Styrix WL traits and relics via the stratagem - the other ones would have to be your Warlord in order to gain a trait and relic. This is due to the stratagems only affecting the Questoris and Dominus Knight Classes.
Suzuteo wrote: One Knight in a Lance gets character rules. A Knight can be made into a character and given a WLT for 1CP; 2 for 3CP. And they can get 1/2 relics with 1/3CP as usual.
Castellans pretty much always want to take their specialized weapon relic.
Does that mean I can take a forgeworld knight in a lance. Take a guard Battalion kurovs commander warlord etc and still have my forgeworld knight get the 4++ trait?
He just can’t choose a relic to go along with it?
That sound about right
If you have Imperial guard commander warlord then forgeworld knight will not get warlord trait just by having character by being warlord. You can make FW knight your warlord and have the trait but then IG commander cannot be warlord(and thus no 5+ CP regeneration) and need to pay 1 CP for kurov aquila.
Now you COULD give FW knight warlord trait by strategem but this only works like for 2 FW knights that have questor class so Styrix and MAgaera only. All cerastus knights etc cannot be given trait or relic by strategem so only way to have those on them is make them your warlord. Which removes that 5+ CP regeneration warlord trait as possibility.
Looks like I’m back to the drawing board with my new list!
Suzuteo wrote: Not convinced that a Castellan is preferred to a Shadowsword. Against a Shadowsword, sure. But it's overkill for virtually everything else; it feels like taking a sledgehammer to a staple.
Anyhow, my thoughts move more and more toward infantry-heavy lists with lots of alpha striking power, backed by indirect artillery that is hidden out of LOS.
Dunno. Unlike shadowsword castellan will be blowing 2 vehicles a turn. Shadowsword seems to be pretty popular and that is the one more overkill as it can only really blow one vehicle a turn(well okay more when they are like killa kans but those aren't all that important worries).
And what happens if they go up against a list like the one I just posted, where there pretty much are no vehicles to blow up? Or less than 600 points worth of vehicles?
You have harder time sure though 12 stomps isn't nothing to sniff at. And that possibility doesn't worry all that much shadowsword which is also not happy seeing hordes.
Of course not like there's not stuff like custodian bikes, eldar jetbikes of either type etc that you can shoot up that cawl's wrath doesn't mind shooting either.
600 points to stomp sounds pretty bad to me. Lol.
And sure, Castellans can shoot bikes. But that's not what it's best for. I honestly would just tie it up with Dragoons (you cannot Fall Back through vehicles) and ignore it for the rest of the game.
Sure, but you spent 200 less points on the Shadowsword. You are spending 50% more points for the same impact in half to the most of your games. Sure, if you're going Knights vs. Knights, your Castellan will be worthwhile. But then again, the other guy will pretty much run the same strategy. This is not good de-risking.
Suzuteo wrote: 600 points to stomp sounds pretty bad to me. Lol.
And sure, Castellans can shoot bikes. But that's not what it's best for. I honestly would just tie it up with Dragoons (you cannot Fall Back through vehicles) and ignore it for the rest of the game.
Sure, but you spent 200 less points on the Shadowsword. You are spending 50% more points for the same impact in half to the most of your games. Sure, if you're going Knights vs. Knights, your Castellan will be worthwhile. But then again, the other guy will pretty much run the same strategy. This is not good de-risking.
Yes but I think you are overestimating number of 4-6 pts model only hordes in tournaments. Do you really face armies with just 4-6 pts infantry?
And funny you mention dragoons as those vehicle squadrons are also what castellan very much enjoys shooting. Unless you have tons of 1 model ones they are basically never going to get even close to castellan if castellan decides to look at.
And agains castellan isn't only good against knight army. Many IG armies for example have these thing called "leman russ". Castellan is blowing 2 of those per turn(something shadowsword can't do. And one of those leman russes could be repulsor for all the difference it makes). That's 2 turns and points made back. Marines I see repulsor time to time, chaos there's dinobots, primarch etc castellan enjoys. Ad mech and there are kastellan robots to shoot at. Eldar? Wave serpents, wraithlords, war walker squadrons that I see. Alaitoc fliers also. Albeit those are bit more annoying if they spend strategem for -3 to hit. -2 isn't that bad as castellan will blow up one anyway(without help from strategem of reroll all 1's). Leviathan dreadnoughts, contemptor dreadnoughts. Hell with necrons destroyers are very good targets as a) they are very powerful b) you pretty much HAVE to blow them away right away or not bother to shoot so against those thing there is no such thing as "overkill". Worst you can do is meagre fire that kills several models of the 6 destroyers and that's it.
And don't you think knight army might be just wee bit unbalanced if it would be just anti-horde firepower? How it would then deal with vehicles?
Seriously all you face are IG/ork/tyranid infantry swarm? Nothing else? One of the most horde skewed metas you face then.
If hordes were a problem for IK, how did 3 of the top 8 lists at Boise GT have majority knight detachments, and 1 of the top 8 lists was guard/blangels/RAVEN Castellan? Shooty knights stomp out 8 minimum bodies each player turn, and easy kill 16 over a battle round if they remain engaged. Actual melee knights, or Tzeentch help you a KRAST gallant against a swarm of chaos gribblies, will splatter out 25 models per assault phase. The one off KRAST gallant with the +1 attack WLT can seriously land 30 hits a player turn using the KRAST exploding 6s strategem on cultist or plague duders.
EDIT: IK have counters. It is elite suicidal melee infantry with str9 (wulfen style stuff), or elite shooting infantry out of LOS in ruins with good access to shooting buffs (devastators, obliterators, reapers, etc.). Hordes do not counter knights. Hordes don't hurt knights. The only way the 200 ork body list wins versus knights is if the ork player slow plays and denies the knight player 6 turns of stamping out 50 bodies a turn.
Krast gallant has nothing to do with Castelan concept and definitely not with range armies all together?
That's the whole point ! You jump in and talk about questoris houses and how knights are ad mech ok like I'm from another planet. Do you get the point or just trying to troll.
Questoris household knight darn all vehicles and weapons are ad mech I'm with you. But 600 gathered points in one model is bad even if called 6 robots or one Castelan .
And as always this is my opinion and from my experience .every single time I play any model Magnus mortarion or lancer o crusader everysingle time in New edition it does not favor me at all. Maybe it's better now if you make an elite army giving you a good chance with few models and some nice stratgems to survive tomgo first that's it. Making a list with many models just adding one knight we have extensively talked about many times. Even with more options gems defence bla bla all die in 8th.
Cutting this blabla short if you take a Castelan and you focus fire my Dragoons then most likely I win. I wish all enemies focus my Dragoons I really wish but they won't.
That's why I'm trying to fit isnide a list Dragoons knight Robots so you really don't know what to shoot and if you leave anything it can really hurt you . Else I don't framing need a knight I get more from onagers than a knight cheaper more durable healable bla bla already covered this 400 post back.
You can't convince me even if you post 300 times that a list without elite going first like knights or mass models to gain wounds is valid is not.
If you invest 600 points in knights then you need two more melee knights tomdraw the fire power and make the lost valid . So it's not ad mech as we know it it's knights so please spare me about what is ad mech.
Sorry I don't man to sound harsh but it's common logic when you participate in a forums to atmelast try to read some of the main concept in it before claiming knowledge or at least try to add some value.
Wanna have fun go ad a single Castelan to your list but got nothing to do with a serious list sorry. A list with knights sure thing I even tried to fit a porphyrion early on the year but has nothing to do with adding one knight.
And every focused list does not have enough CP to play there aspects. I got a list with min 11 CP malevolance or guard for cp rec. And many options . My knight I can spend in him my robots I can spend on them my transport and assault options etc etc warglaives? What ever remains alive will be used. So
I m still trying to find a way to get Mars and stygies and knights and it's not possible
If solo castellans weren't serious lists, why were there 2 castellan lists in the top 8 of the Boise GT? There were 4 lists with knights, 3 of those with majority knights. These were all 4-1 lists in a tier 1 tournament. One of the castellan lists had just the castellan. One had the castellan in a bigger 4-5 knight detachment with a STYGIES battalion on the side. My competitive group is rushing out to buy castellans based on the data coming back from the top tables. I was deeply suspicious of the dominus class initially and preferred gallants, but the data is changing my mind.
EDIT: on the mars/stygies/knights thing ... MARS and KNIGHTS don't get along. It doesn't make sense. MARS is about pouring points into heavy shooting units to make Cawl's tax pay off. Knights are all payload units that you expect to deal damage and take damage. There is simply no way to get those to work. STYGIES/Knights? Hell yes. Hard to shoot rangers hiding and enginseers repairing is a great thing.
tneva82 wrote: Yes but I think you are overestimating number of 4-6 pts model only hordes in tournaments. Do you really face armies with just 4-6 pts infantry?
And funny you mention dragoons as those vehicle squadrons are also what castellan very much enjoys shooting. Unless you have tons of 1 model ones they are basically never going to get even close to castellan if castellan decides to look at.
And agains castellan isn't only good against knight army. Many IG armies for example have these thing called "leman russ". Castellan is blowing 2 of those per turn(something shadowsword can't do. And one of those leman russes could be repulsor for all the difference it makes). That's 2 turns and points made back. Marines I see repulsor time to time, chaos there's dinobots, primarch etc castellan enjoys. Ad mech and there are kastellan robots to shoot at. Eldar? Wave serpents, wraithlords, war walker squadrons that I see. Alaitoc fliers also. Albeit those are bit more annoying if they spend strategem for -3 to hit. -2 isn't that bad as castellan will blow up one anyway(without help from strategem of reroll all 1's). Leviathan dreadnoughts, contemptor dreadnoughts. Hell with necrons destroyers are very good targets as a) they are very powerful b) you pretty much HAVE to blow them away right away or not bother to shoot so against those thing there is no such thing as "overkill". Worst you can do is meagre fire that kills several models of the 6 destroyers and that's it.
And don't you think knight army might be just wee bit unbalanced if it would be just anti-horde firepower? How it would then deal with vehicles?
Seriously all you face are IG/ork/tyranid infantry swarm? Nothing else? One of the most horde skewed metas you face then.
I haven't had a chance to play a game in like two months because of my business travel. But every time I drop by the store or talk to my friends, they tell me that Ynnari/Eldar/Drukhari, Death Guard, and Blood Angels are hot, with Tyranids and Custodes Soup being strong runners-up. Most people are preparing for hordes, which is why I can see Knights being temporarily resurgent.
Pretty sure a Castellan can't consistently wipe an entire squadron of Dragoons. And even if they do, that's not a huge loss. Dragoons are probably the most annoying thing to shoot at in most AdMech lists. Anyhow, virtually everything in that last I posted can seriously hurt a Knight; they are actually very vulnerable in fighting.
When was the last time you saw a Leman Russ, Dreadnought, or Destroyer at the top table? Wave Serpents, sure, but as you said, annoying to shoot down. Plus, most lists bring only 2 or 3 of them.
Vehicle-heavy lists are uncommon in competition right now. Infantry-heavy lists are more flexible, much more efficient, and higher skill cap. You can bring a Knight to take out vehicles, and I am sure it is good at that. But let's be honest, you're not going to need to take out 600 points worth of them, and against infantry-heavy lists, a Castellan is massively inefficient.
Wulfey wrote: If hordes were a problem for IK, how did 3 of the top 8 lists at Boise GT have majority knight detachments, and 1 of the top 8 lists was guard/blangels/RAVEN Castellan? Shooty knights stomp out 8 minimum bodies each player turn, and easy kill 16 over a battle round if they remain engaged. Actual melee knights, or Tzeentch help you a KRAST gallant against a swarm of chaos gribblies, will splatter out 25 models per assault phase. The one off KRAST gallant with the +1 attack WLT can seriously land 30 hits a player turn using the KRAST exploding 6s strategem on cultist or plague duders.
EDIT: IK have counters. It is elite suicidal melee infantry with str9 (wulfen style stuff), or elite shooting infantry out of LOS in ruins with good access to shooting buffs (devastators, obliterators, reapers, etc.). Hordes do not counter knights. Hordes don't hurt knights. The only way the 200 ork body list wins versus knights is if the ork player slow plays and denies the knight player 6 turns of stamping out 50 bodies a turn.
a) 12 attacks, 8 hits. Does not equal 8 kills. 6 and spare. And 16 in 2 stomps? 24 attacks, 16 hits. You seriously think they kill with every hit? Lol. 16 hits and you are looking at 13-14 deaths rather than 16.
b) Obviously orks won't give 2 combat phases stomping. 6 turn game, 6 stomps assuming knight player gets charge turn 1 which he likely won't.
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Suzuteo wrote: Pretty sure a Castellan can't consistently wipe an entire squadron of Dragoons. And even if they do, that's not a huge loss. Dragoons are probably the most annoying thing to shoot at in most AdMech lists. Anyhow, virtually everything in that last I posted can seriously hurt a Knight; they are actually very vulnerable in fighting.
How many are in squadron? Volcano lance will get d6 shots rerolling 1's. Hits on 3+ rerolling 1's. Wound on 2+ rerolling 1's. Do they have inv save? If not then every wound causes in average 7 wounds(3d3 damage rerolling 1's) so dead dragoon per wound. Then plasma destructor. 2d6 shots rerolling 1's, 3+ to hit rerolling 1's, wounds on 3+, you get no save if no inv and causes 3 wounds per wound. And then comes in 4d3 shots(rerolling 1's) hitting on you know what, wounding 3+ rerolling 1's. You get 5+ save(IIRC they had 4+ save) and cause d3 damage rerolling 1's. Then is of course the 4 meltaguns.
That's a lot of dead dragoons. You need several to surround castellan. Oh and another knight nearby if knight player is affraid of getting tagged in CC by vehicles. 2 knights close to each other and you need to surround BOTH.
and against infantry-heavy lists, a Castellan is massively inefficient.
Why then shadowsword is popular? That's not much better if at all...Doesn't kill tougher than ork boyz(when was last time you saw orks in top tables anyway?) and is less tougher. It gives world of hurt on custodians where that 2d6 D3 plasma hurts a lot rerolling everything etc.
You speak of tournament tables. Well sure enough raven castellan started to appear on those right away...Maybe there's a reason for that you know?
tneva82 wrote: How many are in squadron? Volcano lance will get d6 shots rerolling 1's. Hits on 3+ rerolling 1's. Wound on 2+ rerolling 1's. Do they have inv save? If not then every wound causes in average 7 wounds(3d3 damage rerolling 1's) so dead dragoon per wound. Then plasma destructor. 2d6 shots rerolling 1's, 3+ to hit rerolling 1's, wounds on 3+, you get no save if no inv and causes 3 wounds per wound. And then comes in 4d3 shots(rerolling 1's) hitting on you know what, wounding 3+ rerolling 1's. You get 5+ save(IIRC they had 4+ save) and cause d3 damage rerolling 1's. Then is of course the 4 meltaguns.
That's a lot of dead dragoons. You need several to surround castellan. Oh and another knight nearby if knight player is affraid of getting tagged in CC by vehicles. 2 knights close to each other and you need to surround BOTH.
You have a point. I did not factor in the Raven stratagem. But let's walk through the math. Up to 6 Dragoons in a squadron. Castellans hit on a 4+ from incense; 5+ if Stygies ontop of that, but let's assume not. Dragoons have a 6++ invulnerable save and 3+ save with Shroudpsalm.
7.4+8.88+4.92+6.76 = 27.96, 4 out of 6 Dragoons dead, assuming the Knight is within 6" of the Dragoons; I would definitely position myself 16.1" away. Those meltaguns hurt.
You only need three Dragoons to surround a Knight, actually. In fact, you only need three of any model to surround a lone model. And nobody is stupid enough to put two Knights close together against melee vehicle threats. But if they do, I would be glad to trap both of them for one turn.
tneva82 wrote: Why then shadowsword is popular? That's not much better if at all...Doesn't kill tougher than ork boyz(when was last time you saw orks in top tables anyway?) and is less tougher. It gives world of hurt on custodians where that 2d6 D3 plasma hurts a lot rerolling everything etc.
You speak of tournament tables. Well sure enough raven castellan started to appear on those right away...Maybe there's a reason for that you know?
Shadowswords aren't popular. I was saying it's more points appropriate to the threats you're dealing with.
Yeah. Because nobody was expecting to have to deal with 1600 points worth of Knights. People will adjust, and these sorts of strategies never hold up.
Exactly none said bad words about Castelan and stop the offensive we are not blind nor retards.
I agree with Suzuteo won't take results from on tour just when codex came out.
And the meta will surelly swift. As for shooting Dragoons I'd be glad to have your 600 point thing waste all shots on a -2 to hit model ! As I said go ahead if all did what you say I would not need to have more durability and Cawl star would be toping.
As for synergy I never said that a knight list is not good . But it's a aknight list . With plus and minus advantages and dis. I clearly said it's most likely a win decisions to play an elite list full of knights. As meta Swift's so will heavy focused lists. That's why we looking for a soup list covering most cases not one game or one tour or one enemy faction.
Combining Mars with stygies and knights yes please. Shooting screener and durability office sounds good to me. Point wise not gonna happen most likely. Spending your CP is the real trick here but I decided my opponent will hit something and let me spend my CP to the surviving unit. That's why I wanna play full threat list.
I m gonna try Mars atm cause I believe Robots Cawl and a knight warden with some warglaives are better than crusader and Dragoons. Cawl star seems to perform better for me than a crusader and I don't have 600 poonts for a Castelan nor I consider him the best game dakka. Sorry good but no for me . I d surelly take one on my knight list but not atm.
Why ? Thoughts behind my posts!
Cawl reroll everything. Making my shooting more stable to hit vs all kind of lists / defences and adjust according to needs. Including a pair of Icarus onagers or neutron even still testing. Wrath of Mars I need to say no more . With knight and transport I consider my list low in model count giving me a chance to go first and that will be nasty.
Two canticles healing dakka Warden for havok helverins either with neutrons or armiger's with Icarus complete each other . Not sure f I need a guard battalion but it can happen setting me up with 12 cp and some recycling.
I miss Dragoons but I consider (not tested) two armiger's perform both shooting and some melee covering for the spot adding some CP on super heavy .
If I manage to add priests inside the list with out sacrifice or test 2*5*2 plasma vanguard in transport vs 11-12 priest (both variations ) in trwnsport I believe it would be better than a knight list. That's about it.
Guard battalion with a phycher if need seems the most logical in a tour cause guard got the best cheap battalions + CP recycle + an options vs psych if it's really necessary.
So super heavy Raven warden with 2 small ones Cawl star with robots and priests + some guard battalion . If done I believe it would be the most versatile all around list to be played vs a majority of enemies like no other!
You only need three Dragoons to surround a Knight, actually. In fact, you only need three of any model to surround a lone model. And nobody is stupid enough to put two Knights close together against melee vehicle threats. But if they do, I would be glad to trap both of them for one turn.
Thing is with 2 knights side by side(btw no need to be even b2b) you need more than 3 models or the knights can simply walk out of the combat. And since according to your math 4/6 dies to castellan salvo...Where's that 3rd going to come? How many dragoons ad mechs generally field? Even if castellan rolls poorly and you have 3 you won't be able to surround both with 3 models. Especially as you still can't break coherension.
Not to mention you will have to face often more than 1 and remember. You move 10". Castellan moves 10". You won't be reaching them that fast as castellan can be moving to put in some distance between them again.
Oh and btw...If 3 dragoons get into close combat average is 1 dies to castellan's h2h attacks freeing him again. And if there's somebody, say errant, in close combat that will be making wreck as well. Haven't done yet math is chainsword/fist/stomp better but either way even with stomp 1 dragoon dies in average with castellans which is WORSE than errant in h2h so obviously errant is having even better time so if you surround both you basically NEED full squadron of 6 get there. I very much doubt squadron of 6 will get in combat in tact so you need multiple squadrons to archieve that.
Above with assumption overwatch does nothing. But with average 18.5 shots you are looking at 3 hits varying from near certain death of dragoon(volcano lance) to just extra damage to make sure even with bad rolls castellan will kill at least one dragoon.
Now sure if you have multiple full squadrons coming on knights way that's a worry to knights. In that case knights will of course likely be further. Then if castellan is alone(support for other imperium armies) they can either use screens or if it's full knight army they have more firepower and dragoons aren't cheap models so worthwhile targets for knights shooting in any case.
Shadowswords aren't popular. I was saying it's more points appropriate to the threats you're dealing with.
Yeah. Because nobody was expecting to have to deal with 1600 points worth of Knights. People will adjust, and these sorts of strategies never hold up.
Funny I see plenty of tournament lists with those.
And we'll see. So far we have tournament data supporting my view more than your's.
tneva82 wrote: Thing is with 2 knights side by side(btw no need to be even b2b) you need more than 3 models or the knights can simply walk out of the combat. And since according to your math 4/6 dies to castellan salvo...Where's that 3rd going to come? How many dragoons ad mechs generally field? Even if castellan rolls poorly and you have 3 you won't be able to surround both with 3 models. Especially as you still can't break coherension.
Not to mention you will have to face often more than 1 and remember. You move 10". Castellan moves 10". You won't be reaching them that fast as castellan can be moving to put in some distance between them again.
Oh and btw...If 3 dragoons get into close combat average is 1 dies to castellan's h2h attacks freeing him again. And if there's somebody, say errant, in close combat that will be making wreck as well. Haven't done yet math is chainsword/fist/stomp better but either way even with stomp 1 dragoon dies in average with castellans which is WORSE than errant in h2h so obviously errant is having even better time so if you surround both you basically NEED full squadron of 6 get there. I very much doubt squadron of 6 will get in combat in tact so you need multiple squadrons to archieve that.
No. If you put two Dragoons "pinching" either side of the short axis of a Knight, then a Dragoon anywhere past the 50% mark of its long axis (opposite of where the two other Dragoons are), it is impossible for the Knight to escape because he cannot pivot in place or translate side to side. It's laughably easy to trap a Knight, actually. You better watch out for that sort of move.
According to my math, 4/6 die if the Knight shoots 100% of its weapons at it within 6". More than just the Knight can be shooting it, so if we're going second, I doubt I will have the option at all. But if we're going first, that Knight is screwed.
tneva82 wrote: Funny I see plenty of tournament lists with those. And we'll see. So far we have tournament data supporting my view more than your's.
Pretty sure you don't. First, you don't even have one complete week's worth of data. Second, this already didn't happen in the Index meta.
Knights and these sorts of low skill cap, dominant strategies have always done well. But they are a type of army that pretty much auto-loses certain matchups. And the thing about tournament competitive lists in any strategy game is that overall win rate is not very important. You simply have to have a reasonable chance to win against every other competitive deck in the meta.
Anyhow, I fully expect to see lone Knight lists, but I really doubt we're going to see three Knight lists very long, and probably not from top table players.
No. If you put two Dragoons "pinching" either side of the short axis of a Knight, then a Dragoon anywhere past the 50% mark of its long axis, it is impossible for the Knight to escape because he cannot pivot in place or translate side to side.
According to my math, 4/6 die if the Knight shoots 100% of its weapons at it within 6". More than just the Knight can be shooting it, so if we're going second, I doubt I will have the option at all. But if we're going first, that Knight is screwed.
Yes but that's why second knight is slightly to side. They have room there and then pivot. And can you maintain coherency with 2 knights with more than 4" of knight base between?
Oh and i will always get shooting. Doubt you can do first turn charge 30" away.
Oh and you mentioned being 16.1" away. I take it doesn't have some 3d6 charge rule so 11" plus 2d6 for charge threat so you put 16.1" to be out of melta range and give good odds of charge right? Knight can move away to deny charge or if you don't have other non infantry to surround i can charge you myself. Knights are no slouch in h2h. Let's be generous and say only 3 dies to castellan shooting with no extra damage. Then 2 stomps takes out 2 dragoons in average with room fog bad dices. 1 left when my turn comes. This on one of worst h2h knights.
No i think mechanicum has lot better ways to deal with knights than desperate dragoon charge.
Anyhow, I fully expect to see lone Knight lists, but I really doubt we're going to see three Knight lists very long, and probably not from top table players.
Funny. I have been generally refering to lone castellans all the time rather than full knight list. Lone castellan will obviously have screens to stop dragoon trick even if you run 3x6 to get past castellan's shooting(min 1 round, likely 2)
tneva82 wrote: Yes but that's why second knight is slightly to side. They have room there and then pivot. And can you maintain coherency with 2 knights with more than 4" of knight base between?
Oh and i will always get shooting. Doubt you can do first turn charge 30" away.
Oh and you mentioned being 16.1" away. I take it doesn't have some 3d6 charge rule so 11" plus 2d6 for charge threat so you put 16.1" to be out of melta range and give good odds of charge right? Knight can move away to deny charge or if you don't have other non infantry to surround i can charge you myself. Knights are no slouch in h2h. Let's be generous and say only 3 dies to castellan shooting with no extra damage. Then 2 stomps takes out 2 dragoons in average with room fog bad dices. 1 left when my turn comes. This on one of worst h2h knights.
No i think mechanicum has lot better ways to deal with knights than desperate dragoon charge.
I don't think it works. If you have three Knights, maybe you can stop a surrounded by forcing cohesion in certain circumstances. But I cannot think of any arrangement where two Knights can prevent both of them from being surrounded.
If you're going second, 16.1" inches may seem prudent. And I doubt the Castellan will move away. If anything, I am more worried about it charging at me. But that is inherent to going second.
Anyhow, you're really nitpicking, and not offering much in the way of a good argument for Castellans. If anything, I am less impressed now that I look at the math and how much of a commitment it is to manage risk on this guy. I mean, I didn't say it was the only or best strategy. Just one easy way to neutralize 600 points of shooting. If it's the best move, I will do it. If there is something else better for my Dragoons to do, I will do that instead.
tneva82 wrote: Funny. I have been generally refering to lone castellans all the time rather than full knight list. Lone castellan will obviously have screens to stop dragoon trick even if you run 3x6 to get past castellan's shooting(min 1 round, likely 2)
I've personally been thinking it would be the lone Raven Crusader that comes out on top due to the good mix of defense and offense. I am surprised that people are going for lone Raven Castellans.
Then again, my friend just sent me the lists for Boise, and Brandon didn't bring a Castellan. He brought a Shadowsword backed by Basilisks and Hellhounds; again, we're seeing people prepping for horde lists, especially DG/Nurgle. 400-500 points seems right for the commitment to anti-tank. The Flying Monkey GT list looks a lot like mine, only with BA instead of AdMech and 5x Hellhounds to balance out the Thunder Hammers.
I don't think it works. If you have three Knights, maybe you can stop a surrounded by forcing cohesion in certain circumstances. But I cannot think of any arrangement where two Knights can prevent both of them from being surrounded.
From 2 dragoons? If there's 2 knights side by side you are looking at about 10" gap between 2 sides. How many dragoons you think you need to surround that. Remember if they are at sides I can move forward...No need to even pivot.
If you're going second, 16.1" inches may seem prudent. And I doubt the Castellan will move away. If anything, I am more worried about it charging at me. But that is inherent to going second.
You will start game ~30" away from castellan. Then you move, I shoot. If you have gone close enough you could charge and surround castellan I will either move sideways or backwards adding distance or charge. If I move sideway/backway I will get second round before you can charge. If you dont' come close enough to give me melta I have always options of adding distance. Remember I don't have to move 100% away from you to do that...
And if you have either credible h2h threat or more non-infantry to trap knight in h2h of course I will deny charge and move away. The melta guns are tertiary weapons. Their shooting isn't worth getting trapped in combat I can't move away from.
Anyhow, you're really nitpicking, and not offering much in the way of a good argument for Castellans. If anything, I am less impressed now that I look at the math and how much of a commitment it is to manage risk on this guy. I mean, I didn't say it was the only or best strategy. Just one easy way to neutralize 600 points of shooting. If it's the best move, I will do it. If there is something else better for my Dragoons to do, I will do that instead.
I'm pointing out how PATHETICALLY bad idea dragoon charge is. a) you are providing exactly the kind of targets castellan WANTS to shoot. 6 wound vehicle SQUADRONS. That's like lol volcano cannon is perfect at killing those without overkill. b) they will not survive one round of shooting without losing most of the squad c) they will take up damage/lose models from overwatch d) when they get into close combat knight will then finish off yet another and so even with bad luck this leaves unit with 1 dragoon which isn't stopping knight from getting anywhere. So basically with 1 round of shooting and letting you charge I have killed 5/6 of your 408 pts dragoon unit accomplishing nothing. You just made castellans life lot nicer. If that's according to you worthwhile idea to even begin to deal with knights poor mechanicum as that's never going to work so guess mechanicum will then auto lose against knights. For h2h you need credible damage output. 3 attacks per models, even with the extra rule, wounding on 4+, giving 4+ save and causing only 2 damage isn't going to make knight to worry even if 2-3 gets into combat. More than that if you want to combat and you basically need to invest over half the points in army on those to max out on them. If there wasn't rule of 3 you could at least bring like 6 of them in squads of 1 which makes life of castellan harder but as it is 3 of those isn't worry even in lone squadrons.
And again lots of tournament top lists obviously disagree with you. Like it or not anti-tank is still needed and 100% anti horde isn't required meta. 600/2000 in anti tank isn't that bad deal. Especially when compared to still popular shadowsword that's even worse against hordes and lot softer target. Shadowsword is easily one shotted. Castellan less so.
tneva82 wrote: From 2 dragoons? If there's 2 knights side by side you are looking at about 10" gap between 2 sides. How many dragoons you think you need to surround that. Remember if they are at sides I can move forward...No need to even pivot.
Don't be dense. From 3 Dragoons. You need 3 objects to be able to trap anything in this game. It's a geometric principle.
tneva82 wrote: You will start game ~30" away from castellan. Then you move, I shoot. If you have gone close enough you could charge and surround castellan I will either move sideways or backwards adding distance or charge. If I move sideway/backway I will get second round before you can charge. If you dont' come close enough to give me melta I have always options of adding distance. Remember I don't have to move 100% away from you to do that...
Except most players aren't stupid and will infiltrate their Dragoons then immediately wrap your Knight. If they cannot do this, they won't spend turns trying to chase you across the board. They will attack another target instead.
tneva82 wrote: I'm pointing out how PATHETICALLY bad idea dragoon charge is. a) you are providing exactly the kind of targets castellan WANTS to shoot. 6 wound vehicle SQUADRONS. That's like lol volcano cannon is perfect at killing those without overkill. b) they will not survive one round of shooting without losing most of the squad c) they will take up damage/lose models from overwatch d) when they get into close combat knight will then finish off yet another and so even with bad luck this leaves unit with 1 dragoon which isn't stopping knight from getting anywhere. So basically with 1 round of shooting and letting you charge I have killed 5/6 of your 408 pts dragoon unit accomplishing nothing. You just made castellans life lot nicer. If that's according to you worthwhile idea to even begin to deal with knights poor mechanicum as that's never going to work so guess mechanicum will then auto lose against knights. For h2h you need credible damage output. 3 attacks per models, even with the extra rule, wounding on 4+, giving 4+ save and causing only 2 damage isn't going to make knight to worry even if 2-3 gets into combat. More than that if you want to combat and you basically need to invest over half the points in army on those to max out on them. If there wasn't rule of 3 you could at least bring like 6 of them in squads of 1 which makes life of castellan harder but as it is 3 of those isn't worry even in lone squadrons.
a) Then they can shoot them? This honestly sounds like a stereotypical "it can be defeated, therefore it is bad" argument, which has logic that is easily countered by a demonstration of reciprocity.
Consider that a Castellan is more vulnerable to a Castellan than a squadron of Dragoons is:
Is countering a Castellan with a Castellan a pathetically bad idea to you? (It seems riskier than trying with Dragoons.)
b) Unless they get the charge off first or wrap around another vehicle for protection. Honestly, your entire strategy sounds reactive and doesn't appreciate the fact that you are the one under threat.
d) I honestly do not know what to say to this. Seriously, you should be able to do the math yourself:
3*(2/6+3*3/6)*4/6*3/6*2 = 3.67 wounds per Dragoon
6 Dragoons deals expected 22.02 wounds to the Castellan. Which means it is proportionally more lethal to the Castellan as it is to them, but costs only two-thirds the points.
But that's not even the important part. As I have outlined above, the threat here is twofold:
1) Dragoons can safely neutralize 600 points of shooting with minimal losses on turn one.
2) Dragoons force you to pay a high opportunity cost for shooting them.
tneva82 wrote: And again lots of tournament top lists obviously disagree with you. Like it or not anti-tank is still needed and 100% anti horde isn't required meta. 600/2000 in anti tank isn't that bad deal. Especially when compared to still popular shadowsword that's even worse against hordes and lot softer target. Shadowsword is easily one shotted. Castellan less so.
Two. That's how many lists with Castellans we have from the top tables. And the Shadowsword is in the #1 list at one of those tourneys.
100% of the lists at these two tourneys have a heavy, dedicated anti-horde component.
One thing you also need to consider, is the Castellan’s overwatch vs those Dragoons. Chances are, 1 of those 2 are going to be killed.
Also, in regards to the “pinching” idea, you’d have to be charging the Knight from the side – this isn’t likely going to be happening first turn – and even if 2 get into combat from the side, even with 1 on each side, I’m not seeing how they can prevent the Knight from just sliding out due to the base whilst still maintaining the 2” coherency. That… Or I’d just dedicate some additional firepower towards them on the same turn to either kill off another model or the unit for ITC points. 6 Dragoons, is, after all worth 5 ITC points if killed in 1 turn and you take Gang Busters.
Also, in regards to shooting a unit of 6 Dragoons. Sure, you aren’t making all 604 points back instantly, but, you are completely neutering a 408 point unit in return – likely finishing it off in combat and/or overwatch. (That’s if they can also get past your screen – if you’re running soup).
I’d also expect the Castellan to survive the return fire of 3 Basilisks and to have the BA Captain zoned out of charging with a screen. The priests could be an issue as the game continues, but, you could argue that they too aren’t going to be getting to the Knight until turn 2 – so they are going to lose a good chunk of their number as well.
And this is just when looking at 604 points of a 2k army.
As for a Shadowsword being better – I don’t think so. Sure, the Shadowsword can 1 shot a vehicle for cheaper, but, if you also want the volume of horde control heavy bolter shots, you’re points saving is only 64 points. That 64 points gets you 1 less BS, no Invuln, and, imo, inferior firepower. Sure, the Castellan wants to be shooting big stuff, but, it still has the rate of fire to remove handfuls of other models more reliably than a Shadowsword does. The Shadowsword also has less advantageous LoS and due to its size, can be harder to move around as well.
Now – if we are talking about the Admech/Guard/BA list vs pure Knights, then, it is a completely different matter. The Dragoons suddenly don’t have to worry about a screen, nor does the BA Captain. The Basilisks are then safe all game and can just continuously focus fire, and, the infantry can happily just sit on objectives all game due to the number of units in the army. This of course could be countered by deploying the Knights all together in a corner, limiting charge options and ensuring no Knight can be surrounding – but again, this then instantly gives up table pressure for the first couple of turns.
Can the Dragoons seriously wreck a Castellans day? Yes, of course they can. Will they do this on a reliable basis? No, I don’t think they will.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The only thing to note that the Shadowsword really has over the Castellan, is that it can go into reserve, whereas the Castellan can’t. This can be big, and, it looks like it was a big reason why Brandon Grant took it in his Boise list.
Arguably, this could then have gone either way for him, depending on who he was up against if he didn’t get 1st turn, but, I doubt we’ll learn more about what happened.
Kdash wrote: One thing you also need to consider, is the Castellan’s overwatch vs those Dragoons. Chances are, 1 of those 2 are going to be killed.
Also, in regards to the “pinching” idea, you’d have to be charging the Knight from the side – this isn’t likely going to be happening first turn – and even if 2 get into combat from the side, even with 1 on each side, I’m not seeing how they can prevent the Knight from just sliding out due to the base whilst still maintaining the 2” coherency. That… Or I’d just dedicate some additional firepower towards them on the same turn to either kill off another model or the unit for ITC points. 6 Dragoons, is, after all worth 5 ITC points if killed in 1 turn and you take Gang Busters.
Also, in regards to shooting a unit of 6 Dragoons. Sure, you aren’t making all 604 points back instantly, but, you are completely neutering a 408 point unit in return – likely finishing it off in combat and/or overwatch. (That’s if they can also get past your screen – if you’re running soup).
I’d also expect the Castellan to survive the return fire of 3 Basilisks and to have the BA Captain zoned out of charging with a screen. The priests could be an issue as the game continues, but, you could argue that they too aren’t going to be getting to the Knight until turn 2 – so they are going to lose a good chunk of their number as well.
And this is just when looking at 604 points of a 2k army.
As for a Shadowsword being better – I don’t think so. Sure, the Shadowsword can 1 shot a vehicle for cheaper, but, if you also want the volume of horde control heavy bolter shots, you’re points saving is only 64 points. That 64 points gets you 1 less BS, no Invuln, and, imo, inferior firepower. Sure, the Castellan wants to be shooting big stuff, but, it still has the rate of fire to remove handfuls of other models more reliably than a Shadowsword does. The Shadowsword also has less advantageous LoS and due to its size, can be harder to move around as well.
Now – if we are talking about the Admech/Guard/BA list vs pure Knights, then, it is a completely different matter. The Dragoons suddenly don’t have to worry about a screen, nor does the BA Captain. The Basilisks are then safe all game and can just continuously focus fire, and, the infantry can happily just sit on objectives all game due to the number of units in the army. This of course could be countered by deploying the Knights all together in a corner, limiting charge options and ensuring no Knight can be surrounding – but again, this then instantly gives up table pressure for the first couple of turns.
Can the Dragoons seriously wreck a Castellans day? Yes, of course they can. Will they do this on a reliable basis? No, I don’t think they will.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The only thing to note that the Shadowsword really has over the Castellan, is that it can go into reserve, whereas the Castellan can’t. This can be big, and, it looks like it was a big reason why Brandon Grant took it in his Boise list.
Arguably, this could then have gone either way for him, depending on who he was up against if he didn’t get 1st turn, but, I doubt we’ll learn more about what happened.
Well, it's moot if you're playing with BA because Slamguinius can tie up Overwatch. But again, math is our friend:
On average, you almost get one. Also, I realized I made a typo in my last post. Should be a tiny bit higher on the meltas.
The pinching thing is not an opinion. It's a geometric fact. It's the same for ANY oval or round base. Imagine a clock. If it's oval, put 3 nails at 12-3, 3-6 , 6-12. If it's round, it's trickier, but 12, 4, and 8. The clock cannot be moved in any direction without touching a nail.
And what do you mean it's unlikely I will get to his side? First, I would be picking the direction. Second, does anyone here point their Knight full frontal toward the enemy? I always move my oval bases sideways because it's easier to maneuver and hide behind buidlings.
Taking out 408 points for 602 is terrible. Consider that a 129 point Slamguinius can do the same to a Knight in one turn of fighting:
2*7*28/36*4/6*5/6*3 = 18.14
2*7*28/36*4/6*5/6*4 = 24.19 with Artisan of War
2*8*28/36*4/6*5/6*4 = 27.65 with Artisan of War and Unleash Rage
It is extremely tough to screen something so large against a Slamguinius. (I mean, seriously, any AdMech should know; most of our plans for the past few months were intended to de-risk Cawlstar, including an assault screen.) On many deployments, he can walk right into your deployment with Forlorn Fury. You would have to castle up for sure, but that just increases your risk.
There are plenty of ways to kill a Knight. Dragoons are strong because they can wrap the Knight and prevent it from falling back. This is huge.
You’re assuming that Slamguinius either makes the charge into the Knight or is even in a position to make the charge. What happens if Slamguinius cannot land within 16” of the Knight for example? Or are you going to start him on the table and likely take an ignore invuln missile to the face?
The point about Dragoons. Without 3, it seems it is pretty much impossible/incredibly difficult to prevent a Knight from retreating. Not having 1st turn will see 4 of the Dragoons die to shooting and likely a 5th dying to overwatch. Sure, when you look at it as 408 points vs 604 points, it is “bad”, but, this isn’t a game of 1 turn and 2 units – something which people always want to assume.
It doesn’t really matter if a unit CAN do something, if it isn’t in a position to do so for 1, 2 or 3 turns. It then becomes a matter of what the other things do in that period.
As for picking Knight base direction, it completely depends. A Gallant could be placed side on, to give movement flexibility etc, whereas, it might not make any difference for a Crusader or Castellan, especially if they are essentially holding the backline or making an initial move up the table. Terrain will of course play a part to this, but, if you’re sideways on in order to benefit from something like a building, it then becomes harder to surround the Knight, as you can play that to your advantage.
As for Admech and screening, sure, they can’t do it as well as Guard can – but, let’s just take 3 min units of Rangers/Vanguard. This 3 units can be placed in front of any Knight at the 3 o’clock, 9 o’clock and 12 o’clock points with a 6” gap between the Knight and the units. Slamguinius is now 16” away from the Knight after using the re-deploy stratagem. This becomes easier the more “chaff” units you take.
Suzuteo wrote: Taking out 408 points for 602 is terrible. Consider that a 129 point Slamguinius can do the same to a Knight in one turn of fighting:
Is it? That's AWESOME! 402 pts in turn. For 602 pts. That's 2/3 of your point value gained in turn. So 2 turns would give you more than you costed. Not many can nor should it. If units kill it's value in turn 2k army would annihilate 2k enemy in a turn...Short game. The higher the amount you can kill a turn the more alpha game is and the worse it is in terms of interesting game. 2/3 of your point value killed is awesome and indeed too much if that was common. Luckily not many are crazy enough to try charging toward castellan with 6 dragoons. Not many units can get that much value. Especially when you are resilient platform. Taking out shadowsword in one turn is easy job. Castellan with 4++ is much harder. Not many things that can do that. Even shadowsword is not able to do that. One of the only things that can do that would be slamquinus but that's what screens are for.
I am honestly getting very tired having to defend models whose use cases have been clearly demonstrated for months against models whose rules have not existed for more than three weeks.
Kdash wrote: You’re assuming that Slamguinius either makes the charge into the Knight or is even in a position to make the charge. What happens if Slamguinius cannot land within 16” of the Knight for example? Or are you going to start him on the table and likely take an ignore invuln missile to the face?
You're ignoring months of tourney results when you ask this. The two options are Forlorn Fury, which gives your Captain a threat radius of 24"+4D6, and Upon Wings of Fire, which lets you Deep Strike before getting a threat radius of 12"+3D6. This is exacerbated by the weird vertical charge rules.
Kdash wrote: The point about Dragoons. Without 3, it seems it is pretty much impossible/incredibly difficult to prevent a Knight from retreating. Not having 1st turn will see 4 of the Dragoons die to shooting and likely a 5th dying to overwatch. Sure, when you look at it as 408 points vs 604 points, it is “bad”, but, this isn’t a game of 1 turn and 2 units – something which people always want to assume.
Omnissiah save me. Don't do stupid things for the sake of doing them. If your Dragoons can't make it to the Knight, obviously don't try that. Pin some other unit instead. When you do this, the damn Knight can't shoot you at all.
Kdash wrote: It doesn’t really matter if a unit CAN do something, if it isn’t in a position to do so for 1, 2 or 3 turns. It then becomes a matter of what the other things do in that period.
What? This entire forum is dedicated to talking about if a unit can do something. Because once you know a unit can do something, you act in ways to prevent that unit from doing that something or, if you are using the unit, to carry out ways to do that something.
Kdash wrote: As for picking Knight base direction, it completely depends. A Gallant could be placed side on, to give movement flexibility etc, whereas, it might not make any difference for a Crusader or Castellan, especially if they are essentially holding the backline or making an initial move up the table. Terrain will of course play a part to this, but, if you’re sideways on in order to benefit from something like a building, it then becomes harder to surround the Knight, as you can play that to your advantage.
Uh, no. Can't say this has ever come up before. Default has always been to point sideways for me, if only because once I do start moving, I like having my best movement option available to me.
Kdash wrote: As for Admech and screening, sure, they can’t do it as well as Guard can – but, let’s just take 3 min units of Rangers/Vanguard. This 3 units can be placed in front of any Knight at the 3 o’clock, 9 o’clock and 12 o’clock points with a 6” gap between the Knight and the units. Slamguinius is now 16” away from the Knight after using the re-deploy stratagem. This becomes easier the more “chaff” units you take.
I just picked up 15 Rangers off my desk. Guess what? They can't castle a Knight at all. Also, a 6" gap both increases the area you need to screen and is about as useful for protecting your Knight from Slamguinius as giving your Knight a giant thong.
Because Slamguinius has a 99.31% chance to make that charge. THAT'S A LESS THAN ONE PERCENT CHANCE HE DOESN'T RAPE YOUR KNIGHT.
I don't think you understand the real, physical challenges of the solutions you're proposing. And we're not even talking about a particularly challenging enemy to protect against.
tneva82 wrote: Is it? That's AWESOME! 402 pts in turn. For 602 pts. That's 2/3 of your point value gained in turn. So 2 turns would give you more than you costed. Not many can nor should it. If units kill it's value in turn 2k army would annihilate 2k enemy in a turn...Short game. The higher the amount you can kill a turn the more alpha game is and the worse it is in terms of interesting game. 2/3 of your point value killed is awesome and indeed too much if that was common. Luckily not many are crazy enough to try charging toward castellan with 6 dragoons. Not many units can get that much value. Especially when you are resilient platform. Taking out shadowsword in one turn is easy job. Castellan with 4++ is much harder. Not many things that can do that. Even shadowsword is not able to do that. One of the only things that can do that would be slamquinus but that's what screens are for.
No, it's not. Especially since this doesn't always happen. And furthermore, that you have other units to compare against. Do we not understand how this comparing thing works at all? Has the issue of point efficiency gone out the window in discussions of competitive play? Have these mobile horde armies backed by CP-efficient elites been winning tourneys by fluke?
Don't get me wrong, I like Knights. I think a backline Crusader or Castellan is great. But I also think the threat environment is diverse, and these guys are at chronic risk of being overinvestments. Being forced to shoot at Dragoons on turn one, possibly from very far away and suffering -2 to hit (so you're not actually killing 408 points in one turn), is not my ideal use for them.
Do Onager Dunecrawlers and Kastellan Robots benefit from Forgeworld buffs like the Sygies VII -1 to hit one? Most armies seem to have some units, largely vehicles which don't benefit, and I wanted to confirm.
iGuy91 wrote: I don't play admech, but had a quick question.
Do Onager Dunecrawlers and Kastellan Robots benefit from Forgeworld buffs like the Sygies VII -1 to hit one? Most armies seem to have some units, largely vehicles which don't benefit, and I wanted to confirm.
Thanks!
Yes. Assuming every AdMech unit in a detachment is from the same Forge World, they all (aside from Secutarii) benefit from that Forge World dogma.
Suzuteo I really admire you even answered all that.
If someone depending not understand we are ad mech players . We love knights steam punk crusaders castlans robots etc but we are talking about and optimal list then there is no point.
Simply put investing in a single unit or model anything 600+ points it's a plan you need to back it up.
Either it's called 6* robots or a Castelan both different still require a plan behind then so you won't cry. Most likely the most effective strategy when you heading towards a focused list is to take advantage of your pros.
A Castelan for me makes the list full knight list. You need to provide same threat for your opponent so you won't get constant focused fire. Get an elite army to play first bla bla . While if you play a baneblade you need to consider you play guard. Str in numbers even with a baneblade.
The logic is simple for any player to understand ! Knight list will auto win some non anti tank list will aim to play first and remove enough threats to take the advantage and needs to have many targets threats for split fire.
Simple things no grand strategies all know and I don't find reason to explain about one big expensive unit inside a list.
I d like to ask if someone has experience from lists with a super heavy deatchmens one knight and warglaives with ad mech thanks
New to the forum so be kind ha.
I have tested a few builds vs an all knight list. Lost both games on points.
As requested by yoda, i tried a backline crusader, guard cp farm battalion and an admec battalion (vanguard) with 40 priests, 5 dragoons and a termite drill.
I went 2nd both times. Dragoons simply died when focused on, autohit flamers or charged by the massive knight threat ranges their save simply does not hold up. Armiger 3 damage destroys them, fast.
Priests were awesome as always infiltrated in, even going 2nd they take the fire and still took out 2 knights.
Crusader did its job, backline fire then t3 got mulched in cc.
Termite drill...wow.....dropped off some vanguard to take down knights toughness, shot then charged a full health knight...destroyed it in one turn! Next turn it got one shot killed by the harpoon lol.
As for those saying cant chargre knights, you can..it may hurt but they get in...even a tech-priest got in taking only 2 damage!
So in conclusion the backline knight worked but as its not a key part of my list it did what was needed of it, nothing more.
Dragoons are predictable now and have a poor save.
Priests and termite drill ftwlol.
It's really fine if your Dragoons die. They are one of many must-kill targets. This one deals a massive number of S8+1 attacks for a very low point cost. Thing is, they have an annoying -1 to hit and -2 to hit past 12" penalty, and they can weather a lot of shooting that could otherwise be directed toward your Kastelan Robots, Slamguinius, etc.
Helverins are definitely one thing Dragoons should be afraid of. They are heavily specialized against T6 targets and have very low opportunity cost for shooting them. (Ironically, this is a weakness in most matchups.)
Your Crusader should avoid CC against anything but the squishy stuff. The Raven stratagem makes it a much more worthwhile shooting platform.
Some other competitively minded mechanicus guys I talk to are rushing out to buy termites for their staff priests. Play tests with proxies has them simply demolishing stuff.
Yeah. I think 8E has previously drilled into our heads the idea that transports should be shooting platforms. Drill is perhaps the first real transport-as-melee-platform. The double Storm Bolters are also no slouch. Still skeptical about the double Heavy Flamers, but I'll admit they have their uses against Eldar and such.
Oh, and Wulfey, are you still sticking to infiltrating these things? Deep strike and disembark 3" means Priests need to make a 6" charge.
Also, seriously, someone find one of these things in the wild and measure its dimensions please!
Few questions:
Can a single knight use a household stratagem? I know they can use stratagems but not get household traits does this affect using a specific household stratagem?
Has a faq been released regarding infiltrating the drill? Do you pay cps for units inside the drill or just the 1 cp for the drill and contents.
As for termite size i will post actual size later but basically its about the same size as a rhino with a snout. 10 vanguard can hide behind it but 32mm bases (priests) will struggle to stay in 3" unles they wrap around it.
Envii wrote: Few questions:
Can a single knight use a household stratagem? I know they can use stratagems but not get household traits does this affect using a specific household stratagem?
Has a faq been released regarding infiltrating the drill? Do you pay cps for units inside the drill or just the 1 cp for the drill and contents.
As for termite size i will post actual size later but basically its about the same size as a rhino with a snout. 10 vanguard can hide behind it but 32mm bases (priests) will struggle to stay in 3" unles they wrap around it.
Yes. Only the traditions are lost when you use a lone Knight.
Consensus here seems to be 1 CP for the Drill and its contents. I am of the opinion that you need to pay for each unit though. Definitely needs an FAQ.
Why would they struggle? They need to be 'within 3",' not 'wholly within 3".' This means your models can all touch the 3" line exactly, right? (I might be wrong, but then again, I literally have never used a transport in 8E before. )
And possible loadouts for these Drills:
12 Fulgurites
2x6 Vanguard w/ 2 Plasma Calivers
Enginseer w/ Mask + 11 Secutarii Hoplites
12x Death Company w/ 3 Thunder Hammer
Inquisitor + 11 of anything above
Woot...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's an interesting concept list:
Spoiler:
Blood Angels Supreme Command Detachment - 339
HQ - 339 1x Captain w/ Jump Pack - Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, Relic: Angel's Wing, Death Visions of Sanguinius
1x Mephiston - Powers: Quickening, Shield of Sanguinius, Wings of Sanguinius
1x Techmarine - Boltgun, Chainsword, Conversion Beamer, Relic: Veritas Vitae
MT Battalion Detachment - 507
HQ - 60 1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist
1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Relic: Kurov's Aquila
Elite - 192 12x Fulgurite Electro-Priest - Electroleech Stave
Fast Attack - 272 4x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Total: 1994 points 16 CP (-4)
Basically, 100% of the Stygies detachment has the option of infiltrating or going into reserve. 10 Carbines and 1 Caliver in two Drills, 11 Fulgurites in the third Drill. The Enginseers can go into any of these Drills to repair. Because you're putting everything into reserve together, there are only 13 drops in this list.
EDIT: Oh. Someone pointed out to me that I have been thinking Fulgurites are 17 points, but Chapter Approved dropped them to 16 points. Also, that Mephiston is 145 points.
lash92 wrote: If you deepstrike the Drill and disembark, the unit which disembarked still needs to be more than 9" away from the enemy. So no 6" charge...
Ah! Good catch. So only the Vanguard will be deep striking. The Priests definitely are going in via infiltration.
Under these circumstances I'm not quite sure if I would even infiltrate the priests in a drill. 10 T8 wounds with 3+ is pretty easy to kill if you go second...
lash92 wrote: Under these circumstances I'm not quite sure if I would even infiltrate the priests in a drill. 10 T8 wounds with 3+ is pretty easy to kill if you go second...
Well in a vacuum yes it's easy to kill the drill.
The idea is that there are multiple drills, dragoons, and stuff like kastellans or a Castellan (nice job with the names GW) in the backline unloading into you. Essentially you can't stop all of it
Only problem is 3 drills is £225 add on 3.5 units of secutarii £180
So £400 for 1/4 of you army now look at the £per pt effectiveness of dragoons and we encounter the biggest barrier to people playing admech
Yeah the price on the drills is keeping me away from them. If I get a raise at work maybe I will run them at the BAO. The staff priest + termite list is super competitive and pretty fun from what i hear.
Wulfey wrote: Yeah the price on the drills is keeping me away from them. If I get a raise at work maybe I will run them at the BAO. The staff priest + termite list is super competitive and pretty fun from what i hear.
How flexible are the TO with proxies such as the Mantic drill Suzuteo linked?
Wulfey wrote: Yeah the price on the drills is keeping me away from them. If I get a raise at work maybe I will run them at the BAO. The staff priest + termite list is super competitive and pretty fun from what i hear.
How flexible are the TO with proxies such as the Mantic drill Suzuteo linked?
I think that thing is too far off personally. There are knockoffs out there for $50 if you can find them.
I don't want to link it directly, but there is a something something terrax drill out there. I am either running the resin or nothing personally.
Fellow c o g b o y e s, not to get ahead of myself, but a few more hours of printing and I will have finished a batch of 9 3d printed mortar pods for one of our comrades here, after that I will be making more for myself and potentially others.
It takes 1-2 hours per unit to print so I can't deliver them rapidly but I can make as many as people want in the fullness of time.
I'm working for "what it's worth to you / tips" to cover the replacement printer bits and my time babysitting the printer.
My army's theme following the Skitarii school of thought is "everything walks" and that includes mortar weapons so I created these ph34r pattern baby crawlers primarily for my own Phobos army. Feel free to PM me if you are interested.
Wulfey wrote: Yeah the price on the drills is keeping me away from them. If I get a raise at work maybe I will run them at the BAO. The staff priest + termite list is super competitive and pretty fun from what i hear.
How flexible are the TO with proxies such as the Mantic drill Suzuteo linked?
Varies with the TO
Rule of thumb always ask
GWTO's wont allow it
But generally if dimentions are similar and its clear what it is others will if anything is confuseing e.g. unclear if its a melta or flamer or its the wrong size its a no
ph34r wrote: Fellow c o g b o y e s, not to get ahead of myself, but a few more hours of printing and I will have finished a batch of 9 3d printed mortar pods for one of our comrades here, after that I will be making more for myself and potentially others.
It takes 1-2 hours per unit to print so I can't deliver them rapidly but I can make as many as people want in the fullness of time.
I'm working for "what it's worth to you / tips" to cover the replacement printer bits and my time babysitting the printer.
My army's theme following the Skitarii school of thought is "everything walks" and that includes mortar weapons so I created these ph34r pattern baby crawlers primarily for my own Phobos army. Feel free to PM me if you are interested.
Spoiler:
Love it and what a guy offering for your services. Not currently looking for models but they look awesome. Well done sir
Wulfey wrote: Yeah the price on the drills is keeping me away from them. If I get a raise at work maybe I will run them at the BAO. The staff priest + termite list is super competitive and pretty fun from what i hear.
How flexible are the TO with proxies such as the Mantic drill Suzuteo linked?
Varies with the TO
Rule of thumb always ask
GWTO's wont allow it
But generally if dimentions are similar and its clear what it is others will if anything is confuseing e.g. unclear if its a melta or flamer or its the wrong size its a no
I think I’m just going to go official forgeworld. Will prob get one for looks but who knows after that. Will need to wait for some batreps of how they perform from our seasoned vets in this thread
Wulfey wrote: Yeah the price on the drills is keeping me away from them. If I get a raise at work maybe I will run them at the BAO. The staff priest + termite list is super competitive and pretty fun from what i hear.
Got a list for us to see? I'm having a tough time figuring out the best mix.
When knights added again as ad mech ally same came the transport.
For me a clear thinking would something like.
A) what kind of list you making
B) what kind of knights you take
C) what you like.
I was having a hard time trying to mix all of the best ad mech atm in one list but after reading some feedback and testing some I decided I'd be using the lists like this.
1) crusader Castelan lists.
If I'm using my ally knights as dakka heavy then it's clear I m using stygies ad mech. I need the extra -1 defence and the best possible option ( infiltration) formmy assault! I'd prefer to add 6 Dragoons and helverins in this list. Even guard or graia battalions.
2) when I decide to use a dakka ad mech and melee soup ally like custodes or warden knight etc then it seems more likely for me to get Mars and transports.
It's exactly the same I was trying to say about 10 infiltrators pre faq. If you take a brigade Mars then infiltrators are a must since you had no other option . And a group of 10 would shoot 50 shots with wrath of Mars.
Now we got transports the options are great. Not cheap but great. Depending on your list composition you got some choises.
From rusttalkers to range priests and plasma vanguard or staff priests. If you decide to pick up warglaives with your warden and use then as screen or team them up for assault then you could just add some vanguard's with plasma on a drill? It will hold 2 groups with 4 plasma and +2 . Not bad at all .
You can add both new units with any hq.
You try range priest if you want to spend wrath on Mars on them!!!!!!!!! 12" range .
And off staff priests any hq combo bla bla.
Now don't forget there are benefits you need to remember.
Transport will lower you model count.thats why I added armiger's and a knight as superheavy detachment . Making this army a true elite army low model count taking advantage of the +1 to go first. It's important.
So remember you can fit 2*5 troops and 2 hq inside . For 1750 point lists or two detachment tour and generally restrictions it's a nice option!
Also this transport not the best or cheapest in the world for me actually gave us a chance to make an elite army . Not the end of the world as we said before we had transport. Not the biggest issue with ad mech. The extra cp made us more competitive. You can use CP to play effective stygies for example.
Now that been said I'd take no more than 1-2 transports is a general list. Most likely drills would follow my detachment setup. If I got many troops in my list like two battalions then most likely it take two drills as well.
If you making an deep strike plan it's another talk but after faq I would not have 3*130 drills filled with troops w8ing till second round to become enaged and try to make 9" charges etc.
Assault army = stygies like it or not. If you heading to mass assault maybe supporting range knights or you planning something like 2*19 priests then stygiesssss.
And you will see it also easier when you try to make your list.
Castelan or crusader with helverins take lot more points . You d be heading to choises like cheap infiltrating Dragoons or guard screen etc.
Another point I'm trying to make here is the actual results you might deliver. I v talked about two forms of clear lists mainly with knight allies. The main reason I don't go in depth about custodes or Ba or guard allows no more is the actual synergy/result.
You take BA or custodes for specific reasons. You take guard also for specific reasons. And for those you only need to make a point cost /. Effectiveness measurement depending on your play style and actual models.
I consider an ad mech pure list in a good standing atm! Don't need guard so much . Yes their got a set of orders but Mars got two cantickles adjustable from Cawl. You can actually benefit them twice. Etc etc. And ofx where you d spend your CP. 6+ for your hq to get a CP back YOURs or enemy is good! It costs only a WT not WT and relic as guard one and with a transport you can hide many things at start of the batlles.
Thanks for reading.
I still try Cawl star with a group of melee knoght armiger's and trying what other options are left! Thanks for reading
Yeah i Was never a fan of transporter but i got to say, this drill opens up so many options for AdMech its insane.
Sad that secutarii dont get forgeworld dogmas. I dont think they are worth to take atm. Hoplites seem cool but what could be their Job? The drill leads to the possibility of going pure admech again which I really love. Now got to buy at least 2 of those...
This for a start
Spoiler:
Stygies Battalion
TPE WL, monitor
TPE
6 Vanguard 2 Plasma
6 Vanguard 2 Plasma
Ranger
10 melee priests
5 Dragoons
2 drills
Mars spearhead
Cawl
4 Dakkastelans Icarus onager with stubber
Icarus onager with stubber
There doesnt seem to be a useful relic to give to one of the Tpe so that it would be worth putting them in one of the drills. But if you do we are looking at 9 drops, 9 CP.
Dragoons obviously will be the screen if needed.
This has became a basic concept for me as ad mech. It's exactly where I consider Ad mech prevails above all else. Rerollomg all shots miss or hits making them a good all around threat vs anything hordish air and some options vs elite troops or even if need be wrath of Mars. It's range mortal wound with 36 range threat extreme!
Mars spearhead
Cawl
4 Dakkastelans Icarus onager with stubber
Icarus onager with stubber
From this point on sure pure mech also possible but .
Superheavy knight detach +3 CP
2* warglaives to increase the threats with an all around knght even a paladin or a warden or what ever the case seems logical.
Why you can't tar pit all knight detach. You can effectively avoid and shooting and screening knights armigers and Robots. And most important you will never decide a target above all others.
You target knight you get the robots . You focus robots the knight party. And even if I love dragoons unless you got for a stygies battalion then I consider warglaives somewhat same role effective. Some shooting some melee.
Now how to get priests and transport in I don't know but I believe in a 1750 game I'd go for plasma troops with or without transport.
And try to get a priest + transport in my bigger list!
Iago40k wrote: Yeah i Was never a fan of transporter but i got to say, this drill opens up so many options for AdMech its insane.
Sad that secutarii dont get forgeworld dogmas. I dont think they are worth to take atm. Hoplites seem cool but what could be their Job? The drill leads to the possibility of going pure admech again which I really love. Now got to buy at least 2 of those...
This for a start
Spoiler:
Stygies Battalion
TPE WL, monitor
TPE
6 Vanguard 2 Plasma
6 Vanguard 2 Plasma
Ranger
10 melee priests
5 Dragoons
2 drills
Mars spearhead
Cawl
4 Dakkastelans Icarus onager with stubber
Icarus onager with stubber
There doesnt seem to be a useful relic to give to one of the Tpe so that it would be worth putting them in one of the drills. But if you do we are looking at 9 drops, 9 CP.
Dragoons obviously will be the screen if needed.
Idea: Enginseer with Omniscient Mask + 11 Hoplites
Yoda79 wrote: This has became a basic concept for me as ad mech. It's exactly where I consider Ad mech prevails above all else. Rerollomg all shots miss or hits making them a good all around threat vs anything hordish air and some options vs elite troops or even if need be wrath of Mars. It's range mortal wound with 36 range threat extreme!
Mars spearhead
Cawl
4 Dakkastelans Icarus onager with stubber
Icarus onager with stubber
From this point on sure pure mech also possible but .
Superheavy knight detach +3 CP
2* warglaives to increase the threats with an all around knght even a paladin or a warden or what ever the case seems logical.
Why you can't tar pit all knight detach. You can effectively avoid and shooting and screening knights armigers and Robots. And most important you will never decide a target above all others.
You target knight you get the robots . You focus robots the knight party. And even if I love dragoons unless you got for a stygies battalion then I consider warglaives somewhat same role effective. Some shooting some melee.
Now how to get priests and transport in I don't know but I believe in a 1750 game I'd go for plasma troops with or without transport.
And try to get a priest + transport in my bigger list!
In the past, we were very limited in our options. It was pretty much Cawlstar + Dragoons + Basilisks, maybe with a Slam Battalion. Now we have Drills, Priests, and Knights to consider on top of that. It's really a lot to take in, and generally speaking, when the options become this diverse, we begin creating archetypes.
In any case, I think there are two right now, and it depends on which Forgeworld you are going with:
1) Stygies + Slam Command or Knights + Running Guards
2) Cawlstar + Slam Battalion + Basilisks
Stygies take two Enginseers for tax, then fill out with a mix of 4 Dragoons, Drills, 12 Priests, maybe 2x6 Vanguard (with 1 Plasma Caliver) and 11 Hoplites (with Mask on the Enginseer).
Slam Command is a BA Supreme Command detachment with Slamguinius + Mephiston + Techmarine or second Captain. That or Slamguinius + Lemartes + Techmarine or second Captain with 10-15 Death Company (Bolters and Chainswords, up to 3 Thunder Hammers).
Slam Battalion is a barebones BA Battalion Slamguinius + Mephiston + 3x5 Scouts
Running Guards are a barebones Valhallan Battalion with 2x Company Commander and 3x10 Infantry. Their job is essentially to MMM on the board to grab objectives and gun down enemy infantry.
Basilisks are a MT or Cadia Battalion with Company Commander + Primaris Psyker or second Company Commander, 3x10 Infantry
For Knights, you take Raven Crusader, Raven Castellan, Krast or Taranis Gallant/Warden/Errant, with an optional two Armigers
And maybe 3) Red Tide?
The big question mark for me though is how we're running Drills + Priests. How many Drills do we want? And do we want to bring Vanguard in units of 6 in case we don't want to put the Priests in?
I had an interesting conversation with a staff member of the Nottingham GW branch today, as i picked up my refill of leadbelcher spray. It went a little something like this:
Staff: So, what’re you working on?
Me: Oh Just just rangers/vanguard that im considering getting hoplite upgrade kits for.
Staff: Ah, cool, cool. How much are they from FW these days?
Me: About £45 including the ranger/vanguard bodies, which is a bit pricey, but i can always get a starter kit and sell on the dunecrawler to reduce the cost. Though no-one really wants any dominuses.
Staff: Oh yeah that is a bit pricey. You could kitbash Necron Lychguard shields and staffs instead of the ho-lite kits, but i guess thats more or less the same price. (Not if you get them from ebay, i didnt tell him that)
Staff: Ya know i’ve started converting my dominus into Myrmidons...
Me: Cool, now all we need are 40k rules for them.
Staff: Ah well there are rumours we’ll be getting some.
Me: Really!
ph34r wrote: Maybe the rumors still = Fires of Cyraxus (coming spring 2024)
But if we might get for real myrmidon rules for 40k I would be SUPER psyched. Myrmidons are awesome and the forgeworld models for them are incredible.
Well they're doing 30k rules for the new knights and armigers, myrmidons are about the only semi-sentient models in 30k. Given the all out ban on the use of easily controlled automatons by a super secret necronic dragon
Heavy Support - 550 5x Kastelan Robot - 15x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Total: 1996 points 16 CP (-4)
I feel it gives me a good mix of shooting and fighting power. I suppose you can swap out Lemartes, DC, and Techmarine for 3x5 Scouts and another Kastelan Robot, but I am wary of going over 5. You can also drop Basilisks and switch the Guard regiment to Valhallan; with the spare points, add 2 Neutron Crawlers and 2 DC and give Techmarine a Beamer.
On a side note, 5 Kastelan Robots with Cawl rerolls, Binharic Override, and Wrath of Mars is much better shooting than a Castellan. And before you say "but anti-tank," Kastelans do better against a Castellan:
5 Kastelans vs. Castellan:
2*5*9*(3/6+3/6*3/6)*2/6*4/6 + 2*5*9*(1/6+3/6*1/6) = 37.5
Recall from my previous calculations that a Castellan, on average, does 26 wounds to another Castellan.
No Cawl, if we want to be more point equivalent:
2*5*9*3/6*2/6*4/6 + 2*5*9*1/6 = 25
I m considering to remove the guard part Al together now.
I'm sacrificing 2 much for what? Maybe if I don't go stygies or I don't take transport in my Mars. Only then I'd prefer guard troops.
Sure the 5+/5+ is an issue but interf with more CP.
I don't gnerally speak about lists since I'm pressed on time I m focused on building a synergy with knights.
So all the above said correctly from Suzuteo and I LL add guard can add some antiphycu in our armies but atm with knights in the picture I don't see a need to count on bane blades etc.
Even so it might sound guard as a better option as stock troops but coming down to decide what troop to pick and wanting to use transports I'd go for mech vanguard. I don't care more mortars when I got robots and Icarus + most likely a Gatling knight and some armiger's .
Even if I eventually degrade into a simple battalion and spearhead even so it would be nice to have graia or stygies for any matter on option. A -1 to hit stock stygies ranger camping obj is more to my playstyle than guard infantry .
It's actually a decisions with our options atm.amd if I can play seriously with ad mech troops I like the special weapons options double canticle or defence of dogmas. If want aggressive stygies or transports can make it so the move move etc advantages don't weight so much now!
Our warlord trait let me take a relic more instead of investing and a WT and a relic from guard to gain CP recycling. Guess I gotta b happy if I manage to at least get malevolance .
As for transport. And how I see it atm. I don't see in a normal environment more than 2 being used. They are not so good and I'm not sure yet how the rest will units will perform! 10-12 priests sound ok but 19 would be better or 2*29 make a plan. 130 points for transport gotta seriously worth the fuzz. And I definitely want to add more units inside to lower the count. So it would become 2 hq and 10 something? Or maybe 2* 5 man and hq or 2*6 man. Optimal would be to avoid the tax for all enginseers and troops so I tried to get it optimal and include most hq and two troop choise.
Same goes for stygies. Sounds like a tax to take a transport to infiltrate ?? You pay for the deep strike option default. It's not cheap nor helps can make a serious transport capacity .
Does it worth to take rusttalkers in it?
I LL try to get 2*5*2 plasma as offnce and test it out with hq inside . We see how it goes.
Suzuteo wrote: Reasons to run Guard:
1) CP recycling
2) Bodies for screening and objective secured
3) Basilisks
4) Hellhounds
5) Shadowsword
6) Heavy Weapons
AdMech can recycle on 6s which is good enough. 5s are better but since the CP buff to Battalions less important. Screening is not as important as before and with admech you have some bodies and your dragoons. You can play a BA Battalion take slamguinius and get scouting bodies plus option for vertus vitae. Everything after that is artillery sans hellhounds which I dont care for.
Dont get me wrong, they are good. But they are far away from being an auto take now.
Suzuteo wrote: Reasons to run Guard:
1) CP recycling
2) Bodies for screening and objective secured
3) Basilisks
4) Hellhounds
5) Shadowsword
6) Heavy Weapons
AdMech can recycle on 6s which is good enough. 5s are better but since the CP buff to Battalions less important. Screening is not as important as before and with admech you have some bodies and your dragoons. You can play a BA Battalion take slamguinius and get scouting bodies plus option for vertus vitae. Everything after that is artillery sans hellhounds which I dont care for.
Dont get me wrong, they are good. But they are far away from being an auto take now.
They're not equivalent. The Guard 5+ for when you spend CP is PER POINT. So if you spend 3CP on an ability you roll 3 dice with a 5+ getting each one back. Our admech version is one dice any time cp is spend you regain a single cp, regardless of how many were spent.
Having said that the admech one on 6s virtually never works for me. I'm almost moving off it entire because i'm lucky if I get 1 or 2 back per game. I'd much rather take necromechanic or something instead. In fact the use of a Knight is an incentive to me to actually get a warlord trait thats a bit more worthwhile.
I know its per cp. I still dont get why so many people rely so heavily on the guard cp farm. For me its just a detachment slot that could be better used if you are just taking a barebones battalion. I play with the monitor since forever and its very seldom i run oocp, mostly when playing with 2 slamguiniusses.
Since I don't have yet finished other newer models I LL try this list in my summer games! Of I LL tweak and adjust accordingly. I could use some details for the knights. What you dprefer and why!!
Iago40k wrote: I know its per cp. I still dont get why so many people rely so heavily on the guard cp farm. For me its just a detachment slot that could be better used if you are just taking a barebones battalion. I play with the monitor since forever and its very seldom i run oocp, mostly when playing with 2 slamguiniusses.
You mentioned exactly why we would need the CP recycling. If you run Blood Angels or Knights, you are going to be burning through CP really fast.
So, two lists to attempt to wrap my head around how these archetypes could work.
Spoiler:
Blood Angels Battalion Detachment - 434
HQ - 269 1x Captain w/ Jump Pack - Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, Relic: Angel's Wing, Death Visions of Sanguinius
1x Mephiston - Powers: Quickening, Shield of Sanguinius, Wings of Sanguinius
Heavy Support - 660 6x Kastelan Robot - 18x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Total: 1993 points 18 CP (-2)
This is pretty much a more extreme version of the earlier list. I am wary of 6x Kastelan Robot, but that unit hits insanely hard. Just buries enemies under mortal wounds. It's practically an auto-win if you go first in favorable terrain; Scouts try their best to ensure that. However, therein lie the weaknesses of this army: If you deploy second against enemy scouts, face off against some Green Tide style army, or go second against something like a Castellan, it's going to get dicey fast. Has 18 CP, 2 of which is spent on Slamguinius immediately, and 5+/5+ recycling.
Elite - 384 12x Fulgurite Electro-Priest - Electroleech Stave
12x Fulgurite Electro-Priest - Electroleech Stave
Fast Attack - 272 4x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Total: 1996 points 16 CP (-4)
This list is all about alpha and beta striking. The BA can be deployed onto the board and simply move through the enemy scouts to reach their targets. As anyone who has played BA knows, it is incredibly hard to screen them out, since all of their threats fly. The Drills can be filled with either of the Priest units or Vanguard; it's okay if one Priest unit is infiltrated normally or if you deploy the Vanguard to grab objectives. Massive threat saturation on turn one will make it difficult for your opponent to respond effectively, especially if they are themselves a beta striking army. There is no real backfield to defend, so your objectives are just going to have to be held by infantry. Army has only 16 CP, and it needs the 5+,5+/5+ to maintain your CP pool. By the end of a good turn one, you burn more CP than you start deployment with!
If you want a second Captain, you can replace Techmarine and 3 DC with one. But I think that is a mistake, since you won't have enough stratagems for all of your BA.
I just dont see the need for grand strategist, aquila and vertus vitae. I rather spend the Points/detachment for something else. If your list is this desperate for stratagems turn 1 then any dark eldar Player will gladly vect you each phase and get cp on their own. So list 1 is what i like because vect can only be used once per phase but there are at least 2 stratagems He want to block in the movement Phase.
But all in all. I reckon its just different ways to approach lists or play them.
I'm not sure if Agents of Vect is a good reason to run fewer CP recyclers. Also doubt it will affect the plan too much. I mean, they can't AoV during deployment, and you have a ton of stratagems to use in every phase but Psychic.
Suzuteo wrote: I'm not sure if Agents of Vect is a good reason to run fewer CP recyclers. Also doubt it will affect the plan too much. I mean, they can't AoV during deployment, and you have a ton of stratagems to use in every phase but Psychic.
my point was building a list that so heavily relies on stratagems its dangerous if there is only one certain stratagem each phase that you need. Because that will get vect. Plus, knights are everywhere now and I am not a fan of getting shot by shieldbreaker missiles. If the monitor dude dies than well it sucks but at least he opened up a detachment i really need. I absolutely see why people take AM, for me its just not necessary. I rather take the monitor plus vitae (if playing BA) and use the Points and detachment elsewhere. But thats personal preference. I am no AM player by heart so it is certainly a wee bit of antipathy :-D
That isn't a weakness in our armies though. It's a strength of DEldar. Agents of Vect is amazingly good because no army is foolproof against what is essentially a Counterspell for 40k.
I mean, yeah, Agents of Vect on Forlorn Fury, Descent of Angels, and either Honour the Chapter or Zealous Congregation can really suck, but having that CP in the long run is important.
And it's not as if the first list is necessarily better. In fact, it's probably even more vulnerable, since its stratagem use is more evenly distributed. Wrath of Mars is something I would love to counter as a DEldar player.
That being said, perhaps you have a point that a more well-rounded list with Mars, Stygies, and Blood Angel detachments is worth looking into.
The lists that are hanging in the top 8s with Drukari have a whole lot of CP and can spend from multiple books. Agents of Vect can stop your smash captains for a turn ... sort of ... but if he stops your castellan too then he is out of CP. The only answer to agents of vect is simply spending even more CP and baiting the drukari in spending harder than you do.
EDIT: also, agents of vect doesn't really work on forlorn fury. Vect causes the strategem to 'not be resolved', which means that forlorn fury wasn't used once. So you can just do it again because the phase limitation doesn't apply before the battle round begins because there is no phase before the battle round begins.
Wulfey wrote: The lists that are hanging in the top 8s with Drukari have a whole lot of CP and can spend from multiple books. Agents of Vect can stop your smash captains for a turn ... sort of ... but if he stops your castellan too then he is out of CP. The only answer to agents of vect is simply spending even more CP and baiting the drukari in spending harder than you do.
EDIT: also, agents of vect doesn't really work on forlorn fury. Vect causes the strategem to 'not be resolved', which means that forlorn fury wasn't used once. So you can just do it again because the phase limitation doesn't apply before the battle round begins because there is no phase before the battle round begins.
Right. I think Agents of Vect is best used at critical junctures like when you need to pull off a long charge. Simply countering everything won't do because you will run out of CP yourself.
Ah right. That's a good point. There's nothing stopping me from FF again in the phase-that-is-not.
Why would He run oocp? Hes got a farm as well you know and if our lists are focussed on turn one He doesnt even have to wait to spend all of them. Lets say He vects four Times turn one. That is 12 cp of which he gets at least three back. He started with 14ish. So still 5 left while crippling us...
I played too many of them by now to not be afraid :-D
And He cant stop forlorn fury either way because its a "before the battle begins" stratagem.
Since we got our transports now, i was wondering, could a stygies Brigade be viable?
Why would you want a stygies brigade? Increase drops so you definatly dont get the +1 to go first, take loads of min squads to give up easy kill points?
Envii wrote: Why would you want a stygies brigade? Increase drops so you definatly dont get the +1 to go first, take loads of min squads to give up easy kill points?
That depends on your event if you dont have kill points or there severly limited its not a big issue. I've taken 38 units to some comp events prior to rule of 3 and come top 1/4
MSU is great for objective control and tough for a loot of armies to deal with. I knights list for example wont have the guns to table.
As to not getting the +1 you still go first 40% of the time
The reason not to run a stygies brigade are that Your HS are better in guard. You only optimally want one FA and you don't want that many HQ.
Suzuteo wrote: Prototype Electro-Priest using the new Anvil bionic heads:
Looks so much better than the stock Priests.
I like the face, reminds me of the inquisitor from an old red dwarf episode. Have you got a few poses in mind? That one is quite dynamic. I wondered if your going for a squad of 20 would you have them in a similar pose?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh wow, I’ve just seen the range. I’m seriously considering those bionic skulls. They could be quite decent as replacement scouts if I ever wanted to tie in blood angels to my army
Envii wrote: Why would you want a stygies brigade? Increase drops so you definatly dont get the +1 to go first, take loads of min squads to give up easy kill points?
yes, all that is exactly what I want, thank you.
You still get to go first roughly 40% of the time, plus the part with "since we got transports" now, is pretty important. With those we can lower the drops significantly. I know our HQs suck but if I play stygies brigade and a mars spearhead (like usual) I still have 2 HQs I usually dont want to have. So with a brigade there will be one more. so 47 points down the dumpster. Okayish.
Pros are good board control, infiltration (very versatile), melee capability, -1 on everyoe, etc. Cons are the poor poor shooting since Icarus Onager and Balistarii are the only viable options with this. At least long range. With the transports one can go for a plasma bomb. Which is not too bad. Will it be optimal, probably not? But can it work? well, that is the question I seek to be answered
Suzuteo wrote: Prototype Electro-Priest using the new Anvil bionic heads:
Looks so much better than the stock Priests.
Very nice. Very Inquisition like. Reminds of those flesheater ghouls I turned into arco flaggenlants. I used the ends of your staff weapons as their arms. Those head look reallys cool
Suzuteo wrote: Prototype Electro-Priest using the new Anvil bionic heads:
Looks so much better than the stock Priests.
I like the face, reminds me of the inquisitor from an old red dwarf episode. Have you got a few poses in mind? That one is quite dynamic. I wondered if your going for a squad of 20 would you have them in a similar pose?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh wow, I’ve just seen the range. I’m seriously considering those bionic skulls. They could be quite decent as replacement scouts if I ever wanted to tie in blood angels to my army
I am making 30 of these guys. They use Mantic Ghoul legs as a base, so lots of crouching, shambling, and lunging poses. They really jive well with the Bloodletter torsos. The shoulder part looks weird, hence the Anvil gothic shoulder pads. And you can't see it, but I bent some Corpuscarii headpieces and they are now the "spine" of the Bloodletter. All said and done, it looks like a space zombie take on a Priest.
If cost weren't an option though, I would use flagellant legs with the weapons; they look more priesty. Then again, my guys are supposed to be Fulgurite Mendicants; they only use energy that they generate themselves or are given naturally. But the savings are great when you bargain hunt for kitbash stuff on eBay. These Electro-Priests come out to $2 per model.
i guess im the only one who actually likes the gw priests.
Just wait until they're painted. They will look awful. Bwahaha.
You guessed correctly.
But yeah, aside from vehicles, everything I do is kitbashed on the cheap. I also have 15 true scale Death Company in the works for $3.50 per model.
And I recently finished speed-painting my Mephiston for this month's Dakka painting contest thing; I'm not that great, but I like how it keeps me motivated. He was $6:
You guys are so conservative. I mean, shirtless blue guys with robe bottoms? Come on. Just because they designed it poorly the first time around doesn't mean we need to embrace the failure.
Yes they are good in CC but you have to take them in units of 10 they don't get the -1 from stygies and you can't DS them.
This means you either take one unit as a counter to assault armies to protect your artillery in a cawl list
Or you stick 3 units in the drills setting you back £500ish
Or you walk very slowly towards the enemy while being shot and never make it you only get the 4++ in melee and they are not going to be sending high AP shots at you
U02dah4 wrote: Yes they are good in CC but you have to take them in units of 10 they don't get the -1 from stygies and you can't DS them.
This means you either take one unit as a counter to assault armies to protect your artillery in a cawl list
Or you stick 3 units in the drills setting you back £500ish
Or you walk very slowly towards the enemy while being shot and never make it you only get the 4++ in melee and they are not going to be sending high AP shots at you
3 units of 20 are just a bit over 500 points. That is easily doable. Add in the some vertus praetors. Add in some shooting support. Add in a deep striking or outflanking threat or two. Easy. Is it the most competitive list out there? Probably not, but that's not the point.
The point is its a SPACE PHALANX.
The hoplites are cheap and good in combat. Slow with no transports, but transports aren't very good this edition anyway. More bodies. Soak up the firepower, and allow other threats to hit home, or they hit the enemy lines and break them. Glorious!
edit: Also, cost in not a deterrent for this list. It will happen. May take a while, but it will happen. Haven't got the final version down, but if I decide I want 3 termites, I'll get 3 termites.
So we don't care if they provide any benefit atm to ad mech list ? We just want to make a space phalanx whatever the cost with three drills not only costing 500+ points but also a lot of euros !
Good have fun I'm with you but there are not much t say about it. Sounds awesome share pics but I need to buy tons fo new ad mech lists like knights Armiger's etc. Before I start a themed only army most likely not performing good in tables. If you test 3*10 with three transport do post here thanks the results!
Yoda79 wrote: So we don't care if they provide any benefit atm to ad mech list ? We just want to make a space phalanx whatever the cost with three drills not only costing 500+ points but also a lot of euros !
Good have fun I'm with you but there are not much t say about it. Sounds awesome share pics but I need to buy tons fo new ad mech lists like knights Armiger's etc. Before I start a themed only army most likely not performing good in tables. If you test 3*10 with three transport do post here thanks the results!
Well I'm not a tournament player. I go to ones occasionally, but I don't want to make terrible lists either. If the hoplites were terrible, I wouldn't want to run a lot of them. But they are not. They are cheap, and seem really good in CC, and fairly durable.
They seem like a decent counter to knights. Saving on 4s in CC against them, dealing mortal wounds, and massed attacks that deal d3 damage to them. They seem like perhaps a unit or two would actually do very well in knight meta. (if that is a thing?).
They also seem like they would do very well against BA captains, death company, sang guard, etc. Really, when I think about it, they seem really good against elite type CC threats. They also seem like the would do fairly well against boyz. They just seem like a great unit to include in an army.
U02dah4 wrote: Yes they are good in CC but you have to take them in units of 10 they don't get the -1 from stygies and you can't DS them.
This means you either take one unit as a counter to assault armies to protect your artillery in a cawl list
Or you stick 3 units in the drills setting you back £500ish
Or you walk very slowly towards the enemy while being shot and never make it you only get the 4++ in melee and they are not going to be sending high AP shots at you
Gotta take the Hoplites in Drills. Bring an Enginseer with Mask along too.
But yeah. Try it out. If it takes off, I may just buy some bayonets and make my Guardsmen into Hoplites. ;D
Yoda79 wrote: So we don't care if they provide any benefit atm to ad mech list ? We just want to make a space phalanx whatever the cost with three drills not only costing 500+ points but also a lot of euros !
Good have fun I'm with you but there are not much t say about it. Sounds awesome share pics but I need to buy tons fo new ad mech lists like knights Armiger's etc. Before I start a themed only army most likely not performing good in tables. If you test 3*10 with three transport do post here thanks the results!
Well I'm not a tournament player. I go to ones occasionally, but I don't want to make terrible lists either. If the hoplites were terrible, I wouldn't want to run a lot of them. But they are not. They are cheap, and seem really good in CC, and fairly durable.
They seem like a decent counter to knights. Saving on 4s in CC against them, dealing mortal wounds, and massed attacks that deal d3 damage to them. They seem like perhaps a unit or two would actually do very well in knight meta. (if that is a thing?).
They also seem like they would do very well against BA captains, death company, sang guard, etc. Really, when I think about it, they seem really good against elite type CC threats. They also seem like the would do fairly well against boyz. They just seem like a great unit to include in an army.
How are they a decent counter to knights
1) im pure knights two avengers do the job
2) in a blob of 20 i only need to kill 12ish to wipe the squad
24 shots 16 hits wounding on 2's 13.5 Hits just over 9 dead throw in a storm spear and squads gone.(but im probably takeing endless fury so id kill a couple extra)
( your turn you cant move far enough to charge me)
3)So turn 2 repeat shooting so you have 1 blob now a knight is killing roughly 5 in CC takeing 1.66 mortal in return and takeing your attack back of 15 dudes 6.8 back in CC so 5w assuming you use the strategem to intergect
so either it is multi charged by 3 and wiped or they just maneuver 14+ inches away leaveing you with just the gun shots dealing 4.4 W
So for the firepower of 20-25% of my list for 2 turns you have lost 25% of yours
Yes they do better as a blockade against chargeing elite infantry but a smash CPT will fit through the hole in your army carved out by T1 shooting and those deepstrikeing assault armies became so much weaker post faq that you wont see them often. Justifying one unit as a frontline vs t1 assault list in a mars artillary list is viable more that -no and even then 2x 10 will be more effective than 1x20
Yoda79 wrote: So we don't care if they provide any benefit atm to ad mech list ? We just want to make a space phalanx whatever the cost with three drills not only costing 500+ points but also a lot of euros !
Good have fun I'm with you but there are not much t say about it. Sounds awesome share pics but I need to buy tons fo new ad mech lists like knights Armiger's etc. Before I start a themed only army most likely not performing good in tables. If you test 3*10 with three transport do post here thanks the results!
Well I'm not a tournament player. I go to ones occasionally, but I don't want to make terrible lists either. If the hoplites were terrible, I wouldn't want to run a lot of them. But they are not. They are cheap, and seem really good in CC, and fairly durable.
They seem like a decent counter to knights. Saving on 4s in CC against them, dealing mortal wounds, and massed attacks that deal d3 damage to them. They seem like perhaps a unit or two would actually do very well in knight meta. (if that is a thing?).
They also seem like they would do very well against BA captains, death company, sang guard, etc. Really, when I think about it, they seem really good against elite type CC threats. They also seem like the would do fairly well against boyz. They just seem like a great unit to include in an army.
How are they a decent counter to knights
1) im pure knights two avengers do the job
2) in a blob of 20 i only need to kill 12ish to wipe the squad
24 shots 16 hits wounding on 2's 13.5 Hits just over 9 dead throw in a storm spear and squads gone.(but im probably takeing endless fury so id kill a couple extra)
( your turn you cant move far enough to charge me)
3)So turn 2 repeat shooting so you have 1 blob now a knight is killing roughly 5 in CC takeing 1.66 mortal in return and takeing your attack back of 15 dudes 6.8 back in CC so 5w assuming you use the strategem to intergect
so either it is multi charged by 3 and wiped or they just maneuver 14+ inches away leaveing you with just the gun shots dealing 4.4 W
So for the firepower of 20-25% of my list for 2 turns you have lost 25% of yours
Yes they do better as a blockade against chargeing elite infantry but a smash CPT will fit through the hole in your army carved out by T1 shooting and those deepstrikeing assault armies became so much weaker post faq that you wont see them often. Justifying one unit as a frontline vs t1 assault list in a mars artillary list is viable more that -no and even then 2x 10 will be more effective than 1x20
So your bringing 2x Crusaders? What else do you bring with those 2?
Honestly, with the way people talk about Knights, you would think that they're utterly invincible against everything. But the fact is that Knights do not have very good shooting for their point and CP costs, are extremely vulnerable to a variety of threats (anti-tank, mortal wounds, melee in general), and need supporting units to help defend them. Not to mention, they are awful at the objectives game.
I have a few varients im testing but always 1 warden+1 crusader
Options im considering styrix /warglaive/ canis rex
And BA and or AM allies if im running some combo less than the 5
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Suzuteo wrote: Honestly, with the way people talk about Knights, you would think that they're utterly invincible against everything. But the fact is that Knights do not have very good shooting for their point and CP costs, are extremely vulnerable to a variety of threats (anti-tank, mortal wounds, melee in general), and need supporting units to help defend them. Not to mention, they are awful at the objectives game.
I thought they needed supporters however i have come up against one pure knights list and 1 knights +3 primaris psykers list at comp etc format while running stygies dragoon And AM artillary list one of which won convincingly (lucky dice) and one of which beat me by 1pt and the only games i lost.
Yoda79 wrote: So we don't care if they provide any benefit atm to ad mech list ? We just want to make a space phalanx whatever the cost with three drills not only costing 500+ points but also a lot of euros !
Good have fun I'm with you but there are not much t say about it. Sounds awesome share pics but I need to buy tons fo new ad mech lists like knights Armiger's etc. Before I start a themed only army most likely not performing good in tables. If you test 3*10 with three transport do post here thanks the results!
Well I'm not a tournament player. I go to ones occasionally, but I don't want to make terrible lists either. If the hoplites were terrible, I wouldn't want to run a lot of them. But they are not. They are cheap, and seem really good in CC, and fairly durable.
They seem like a decent counter to knights. Saving on 4s in CC against them, dealing mortal wounds, and massed attacks that deal d3 damage to them. They seem like perhaps a unit or two would actually do very well in knight meta. (if that is a thing?).
They also seem like they would do very well against BA captains, death company, sang guard, etc. Really, when I think about it, they seem really good against elite type CC threats. They also seem like the would do fairly well against boyz. They just seem like a great unit to include in an army.
How are they a decent counter to knights
1) im pure knights two avengers do the job
2) in a blob of 20 i only need to kill 12ish to wipe the squad
24 shots 16 hits wounding on 2's 13.5 Hits just over 9 dead throw in a storm spear and squads gone.(but im probably takeing endless fury so id kill a couple extra)
( your turn you cant move far enough to charge me)
3)So turn 2 repeat shooting so you have 1 blob now a knight is killing roughly 5 in CC takeing 1.66 mortal in return and takeing your attack back of 15 dudes 6.8 back in CC so 5w assuming you use the strategem to intergect
so either it is multi charged by 3 and wiped or they just maneuver 14+ inches away leaveing you with just the gun shots dealing 4.4 W
So for the firepower of 20-25% of my list for 2 turns you have lost 25% of yours
Yes they do better as a blockade against chargeing elite infantry but a smash CPT will fit through the hole in your army carved out by T1 shooting and those deepstrikeing assault armies became so much weaker post faq that you wont see them often. Justifying one unit as a frontline vs t1 assault list in a mars artillary list is viable more that -no and even then 2x 10 will be more effective than 1x20
I meant more in combat, theortically, as the 4 up would reduce the impact of a knights stomp attacks quite a bit.
In a 1500 pure Ad Mech army (Stygies + Mars) how much screening and how many CP is enough for a Cawl firebase? Usually in a 2000 point list I'll take two Battalions for 6x5 Rangers for this purpose, potentially infiltrating some of those if needed to help push back infiltrators. In 1500 points is 3x5 Rangers enough or is more better?
xlDuke wrote: In a 1500 pure Ad Mech army (Stygies + Mars) how much screening and how many CP is enough for a Cawl firebase? Usually in a 2000 point list I'll take two Battalions for 6x5 Rangers for this purpose, potentially infiltrating some of those if needed to help push back infiltrators. In 1500 points is 3x5 Rangers enough or is more better?
For. 2k pure ad mech or even soup I'd prefer to go for 3 detachments and most likely 2 battalions one spreahead for max CP. If I can't I'd go for battalions outrider or vanguard and spreahead.
As we lower points or ad restrictions I'd go as low as superheavy +3 and battalion for knights soup and this is important to consider in list building why take knights many seem to forget. I can't stress this enough why a superheavy +3 CP and a battalion is extremely nice for ad mech. And most likely it would be a Castelan 2* armiger (any pref.) And a stygies battalions assault.
For a pure ad mech two battalions or for a strict 1500 single detach I'd play battalion stygies and Mars spreahead. In order to invest for Cawl you need a basic
Cawl 3-4* Robots and 2 onagers I'd take Icarus for 1500 points lists. And I would take only 3 Robots with those Icarus so to have points for a mobile offensive force either troops and plasma and/or priests or transports and whatever you like. Even the other unused forgeworlds with transports. You can use an effective graia battalion with lots of troops/ priests even rusttalkers ( not sure they worth it over staff priests). But transports open up other forgeworlds plans as well. My favorite graia is an extreme plan for troop based lists . Surviving troops with good weapons transports to use enginseers and antiphych power and some overwatch/melee warlord trait if I remember correctly.
As I v made some calculations seems to me the best versatile 1750 points or generally two detachment restrictions tour if can't take two battalions is.
Stygies battalion + superheavy for a total of 11 CP taking advantage of a helverins and Castelan extreme range and durability from the map edge. While still having the best offensive options with ad mech infiltration. For that purpose I consider this an extreme CP amount and options! V hard to counter all options all aspects this list can provide. Options for cp spending options for combos options for complete mobility so strong even for obj maps. Extremely good atm. And as the games go lower in points the antiair options and knight armor provide even more power. If you can also add some vanguard troops with plasma you should be ok vs horde lists and remain full mobile. 11 CP two different detachments a superb knight auto win vs low antiarmor and an assault currently best deploy in game . What else you need to win?
Knight Castellan [30 PL, 604pts] . Two Siegebreaker Cannons & Two Shieldbreaker Missiles: 2x Shieldbreaker Missile, 2x Twin Siegebreaker Cannon
++ Total: [86 PL, 1732pts] ++
Maybe a transport and stock troops or one more Dragoons or on less and adjust. But close to this list . I got only 10 priest maybe you want 19 go for it.
xlDuke wrote: In a 1500 pure Ad Mech army (Stygies + Mars) how much screening and how many CP is enough for a Cawl firebase? Usually in a 2000 point list I'll take two Battalions for 6x5 Rangers for this purpose, potentially infiltrating some of those if needed to help push back infiltrators. In 1500 points is 3x5 Rangers enough or is more better?
If you want to run Cawl, go with the second list. You need around 700 points of shooting buffed by Cawl to make him worthwhile over a Dominus. This is assuming you are paying 240 points for just the aura. Keep in mind that the choice is always between Cawl vs. Dominus + Robot/Icarus Crawler.
Mask is not your ideal AdMech relic. Raiment is much better; 6+++ FNP and exploding Overwatch, which Kastelan Robots can actually make good use of (72 attacks means 2 additional hits). However, that would mean getting your Enginseer into the Mars unit somehow.
Maybe this?
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 1222
HQ - 287 1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer - Warlord: Monitor Malevolus, Relic: Raiment of the Technomartyr
Heavy Support - 830 5x Kastelan Robot - 15x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
Stygies VIII Auxiliary Detachment - 272
Fast Attack - 272 4x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Total: 1494 points 7 CP
This list eliminates an Enginseer taxes in favor of more shooting or fighting power. You lose 2 CP, but we've run this sort of thing on 7 CP before. I always felt that 5 is the best number for a Robot-focused army. It makes it possible to gun down larger threats in a single turn. I also think 4 is the ideal number of Dragoons.
For. 2k pure ad mech or even soup I'd prefer to go for 3 detachments and most likely 2 battalions one spreahead for max CP. If I can't I'd go for battalions outrider or vanguard and spreahead.
As we lower points or ad restrictions I'd go as low as superheavy +3 and battalion for knights soup and this is important to consider in list building why take knights many seem to forget. I can't stress this enough why a superheavy +3 CP and a battalion is extremely nice for ad mech. And most likely it would be a Castelan 2* armiger (any pref.) And a stygies battalions assault.
For a pure ad mech two battalions or for a strict 1500 single detach I'd play battalion stygies and Mars spreahead. In order to invest for Cawl you need a basic
Cawl 3-4* Robots and 2 onagers I'd take Icarus for 1500 points lists. And I would take only 3 Robots with those Icarus so to have points for a mobile offensive force either troops and plasma and/or priests or transports and whatever you like. Even the other unused forgeworlds with transports. You can use an effective graia battalion with lots of troops/ priests even rusttalkers ( not sure they worth it over staff priests). But transports open up other forgeworlds plans as well. My favorite graia is an extreme plan for troop based lists . Surviving troops with good weapons transports to use enginseers and antiphych power and some overwatch/melee warlord trait if I remember correctly.
As I v made some calculations seems to me the best versatile 1750 points or generally two detachment restrictions tour if can't take two battalions is.
Stygies battalion + superheavy for a total of 11 CP taking advantage of a helverins and Castelan extreme range and durability from the map edge. While still having the best offensive options with ad mech infiltration. For that purpose I consider this an extreme CP amount and options! V hard to counter all options all aspects this list can provide. Options for cp spending options for combos options for complete mobility so strong even for obj maps. Extremely good atm. And as the games go lower in points the antiair options and knight armor provide even more power. If you can also add some vanguard troops with plasma you should be ok vs horde lists and remain full mobile. 11 CP two different detachments a superb knight auto win vs low antiarmor and an assault currently best deploy in game . What else you need to win?
Thanks for the in-depth reply Yoda. At the moment I'm running my army on limited models so won't be able to take advantage of a lot of your comments. I'll soon be massively expanding my Ad Mech and have some similar ideas about making use of the Assault Drills, Priests, Hoplites and other Forgeworlds but for now my force is most suited to Stygies, Mars and a bit of Ryza. I'll also be sticking to pure Ad Mech for the foreseeable future, potentially expanding into IK once I've fully fleshed out my current army.
Suzuteo:
Spoiler:
If you want to run Cawl, go with the second list. You need around 700 points of shooting buffed by Cawl to make him worthwhile over a Dominus. This is assuming you are paying 240 points for just the aura. Keep in mind that the choice is always between Cawl vs. Dominus + Robot/Icarus Crawler.
Mask is not your ideal AdMech relic. Raiment is much better; 6+++ FNP and exploding Overwatch, which Kastelan Robots can actually make good use of (72 attacks means 2 additional hits). However, that would mean getting your Enginseer into the Mars unit somehow.
This list eliminates an Enginseer taxes in favor of more shooting or fighting power. You lose 2 CP, but we've run this sort of thing on 7 CP before. I always felt that 5 is the best number for a Robot-focused army. It makes it possible to gun down larger threats in a single turn. I also think 4 is the ideal number of Dragoons.
I'm absolutely taking Cawl purely for his re-rolls, it's too valuable considering the pretty average BS of Kastelans and the prevalence of negative to-hit modifiers. Your advice on upping the cost of the Mars portion to improve efficiency of the list echos Yoda's and others I've read and I'll use it. Sadly I've just got three Dragoons to use at the moment with more on the way soon, so for now I'll drop the Omnissian Mask (and save a CP on infiltrating the Enginseer) and use them as lone operatives and a potential back-up screen.
It seems that 3x5 Rangers and the Dragoons should suffice for my screens at 1500 points so I'll stick to that and up the count on the Kastelan unit. I hadn't much thought about the Raiment of the Technomartyr but as I'll have a relic available I'll try it out in my next game - anything that makes tying up the Kastelans more difficult is welcome.
Your list compared to mine is only slightly lower on CP as I won't be infiltrating that Enginseer and is still enough for Binharic Override, Wrath of Mars, Protector and Conqueror Doctrinas. I'll have to take out one of those Dragoons as I've only got 3, so that leaves a few points spare. The only extra models I've got that weren't in the lists are more Rangers, Vanguard, Onagers, Sicarians and Kataphrons. If I could ask for a bit more of your time, are we able to optimise within those restrictions?
Otherwise... maybe you can improve your Skitarii? Upgrading Rangers to Vanguard and giving them each a Plasma Caliver is 57 points. Then I guess double your Crawler stubbers:
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 1289
HQ - 287 1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer - Warlord: Monitor Malevolus, Relic: Raiment of the Technomartyr
Heavy Support - 270 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
Basically, Slamguinius and Mephiston sally forth while everything else plays the board. The Dominus+Crawler+Ironstrider combination is a great because it's a moving gun line.
I don't have any IG, not a fan of the models except for the FWDKoK but I do like the idea of their playstyle. I really appreciate the advice and I'll get back to you about the results when I test it out. The BA detachment list looks a lot of fun but a little low on CP for such an army.
lash92 wrote: But you would just get 5+3+1-2= 7CP for this list, which is quite a low amount for making captain smash + mephy work.
Oh. I'm dumb. I always copy pasted Supreme Command as 3 CP. Sigh. Good thing I haven't tried to play with one yet. (Still waiting for the parts for my DC and Techmarine; only can field a Battalion right now.)
EDIT: Well, here's old faithful for 1500 in 2 detachments:
Spoiler:
Blood Angels Battalion Detachment - 439
HQ - 274 1x Captain w/ Jump Pack - Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, Relic: Angel's Wing, Death Visions of Sanguinius
1x Mephiston - Powers: Quickening, Unleash Rage, Wings of Sanguinius
Seems less good because it has that Scout screen, but less shooting. Also, two Captains, which I find inefficient because only one of them is really useful in the start.
Yesterday I fought against a 3 gallant+ double Dark angel battalion ( 3 tacticat squad, 3 scouts, 2 rhinos, 2 liutenants and 2 biblios ) with a pure mechanicum battalion:
cawl +2 engy
2 rangers msu 4 vanguards full plasma
2 drills
4 datasmiths
2 ballistarii with lascannons
1 dragoon with sniper
2 neutronager
4 dakkabots
My opponent kept a gallant in reserve and it was a big mistake: I was able to obliterate a Knight a turn without effort and his first charges met the rangers, so they were obliterated.
In the end i lost the game because the battle ended at the 5th turn and he has more troops than me holding objectives.
I noticed that the sniper dragoon is surprisingly good in dealing mortal wounds, as with the conqueror imperative he can cause a mortal wound on 4+.
I would like to try 6 of them, Matehammer says that are 9 mortal wounds on average with Cawls, even if they are a bit pricey at 378 points...anyway 9 mortal wounds with the possibility to hit characters are not bad.
The radium jezzail deals mortal wounds on a wound roll of a 6+ and the Protector Doctrinal Imperative is +1/+2 to to-hit rolls so the interaction doesn't work in the way you played it. I think the transuranic arquebus is a much better sniper weapon, it's significantly cheaper, is relatively safe buried in a backfield unit of infantry and can potentially hand out D3 mortal wounds. I've still not had great results from it though.
xlDuke wrote: The radium jezzail deals mortal wounds on a wound roll of a 6+ and the Protector Doctrinal Imperative is +1/+2 to to-hit rolls so the interaction doesn't work in the way you played it. I think the transuranic arquebus is a much better sniper weapon, it's significantly cheaper, is relatively safe buried in a backfield unit of infantry and can potentially hand out D3 mortal wounds. I've still not had great results from it though.
I thought transuranic arquebus only did one mortal wound on a 6, that D3 is just for regular damage.
I want to like mine, but I don't think they've ever actually done anything. They lack weight of fire to guarantee mortal wounds, most targets I want to kill have high invulns, s7 means they only wound Marines on 3's, and they're one of the only weapons in the game that can't move and shoot. That's a lot of drawbacks.
xlDuke wrote: The radium jezzail deals mortal wounds on a wound roll of a 6+ and the Protector Doctrinal Imperative is +1/+2 to to-hit rolls so the interaction doesn't work in the way you played it. I think the transuranic arquebus is a much better sniper weapon, it's significantly cheaper, is relatively safe buried in a backfield unit of infantry and can potentially hand out D3 mortal wounds. I've still not had great results from it though.
I thought transuranic arquebus only did one mortal wound on a 6, that D3 is just for regular damage.
I want to like mine, but I don't think they've ever actually done anything. They lack weight of fire to guarantee mortal wounds, most targets I want to kill have high invulns, s7 means they only wound Marines on 3's, and they're one of the only weapons in the game that can't move and shoot. That's a lot of drawbacks.
You're correct. They're D3 damage with an additional mortal wound on a wound roll of 6+, I'd conflated the two.
brugner8 wrote: Yesterday I fought against a 3 gallant+ double Dark angel battalion ( 3 tacticat squad, 3 scouts, 2 rhinos, 2 liutenants and 2 biblios ) with a pure mechanicum battalion:
cawl +2 engy
2 rangers msu 4 vanguards full plasma
2 drills
4 datasmiths
2 ballistarii with lascannons
1 dragoon with sniper
2 neutronager
4 dakkabots
My opponent kept a gallant in reserve and it was a big mistake: I was able to obliterate a Knight a turn without effort and his first charges met the rangers, so they were obliterated.
In the end i lost the game because the battle ended at the 5th turn and he has more troops than me holding objectives.
I noticed that the sniper dragoon is surprisingly good in dealing mortal wounds, as with the conqueror imperative he can cause a mortal wound on 4+.
I would like to try 6 of them, Matehammer says that are 9 mortal wounds on average with Cawls, even if they are a bit pricey at 378 points...anyway 9 mortal wounds with the possibility to hit characters are not bad.
Why do you have 4 Datasmith?
Ironstrider Ballistarii is 95 points each, but a group of 4-6 of them gets CPI and hits on 2+ after moving; 3+ after advancing (you can also use Rage of the Machines to get the same effect). AdMech sort of forces you to embrace large units.
You should invest in 12 or 24 Electro-Priests if you like mortal wounds and have Drills.
brugner8 wrote: Yesterday I fought against a 3 gallant+ double Dark angel battalion ( 3 tacticat squad, 3 scouts, 2 rhinos, 2 liutenants and 2 biblios ) with a pure mechanicum battalion:
cawl +2 engy
2 rangers msu 4 vanguards full plasma
2 drills
4 datasmiths
2 ballistarii with lascannons
1 dragoon with sniper
2 neutronager
4 dakkabots
My opponent kept a gallant in reserve and it was a big mistake: I was able to obliterate a Knight a turn without effort and his first charges met the rangers, so they were obliterated.
In the end i lost the game because the battle ended at the 5th turn and he has more troops than me holding objectives.
I noticed that the sniper dragoon is surprisingly good in dealing mortal wounds, as with the conqueror imperative he can cause a mortal wound on 4+.
I would like to try 6 of them, Matehammer says that are 9 mortal wounds on average with Cawls, even if they are a bit pricey at 378 points...anyway 9 mortal wounds with the possibility to hit characters are not bad.
This list needs some serious fix . Wasting so much points it's only logical to get bad results. You actually gimping your own army.
1) I believe you mean you played a brigade not a battalion. And that would result in an extreme number of CP 15 to begin with. Where would you use 15 CP to win the game with this list?
2) making two battalions you be starting with a 13 base and you d be better off with a Mars and stygies battalion. Spending CP to infiltrate priests transport even troops for obj holding. Even if you decide you d be trying a brigade you LL need to make list abjustments to use them.
3) brigade or battalions or knights super heavy you need options to spend CP? Best are :
A) on your fast slot a group of 3-4+ Dragoons with Lance's. Can screen can att can walk fast or be infiltrated. Must have for pure ad mech can use +2 to hit gem and explode cc on 4+ for *3 hits. Use one CP to explode in enemy lines or use CP to move fast for obj cap.
B) a group or more in your elite slot staff priests . Use CP to infiltrate then or use 3 CP to attack twice . Kill a unit and get their defnce buff.
C) Robot group for wrath of Mars with Cawl. And or combination of plasma destroyers for max damage output etc. Even this would be better than the list.
D) you could decide to play with your troops . If you take 6 units of troops try 2*5 sniper rangers With omnispex maybe 2-4 one plasma vanguard advancing or transported with enginseers and drils. Just taking stock troops won't cut it. Even 6* ranger arc rifles would had a better chance on getting objectives. Even if you took breachers infiltrate then and use defnce CP for Xtra save and att you d had better obj hold.
So all in all infiltration(stygies) fast units(dragoons) or advancing units (plasma vang) CP hungry- mortal delivery ( Robotd, priests ,knights ) would be considered in your list.
I had an interesting ruling in a game i had today, see what you guys think. Bear in mind it was my opponent that ruled this as ok, not me.
So, the wording in Kastellan battle protocols for protector says “may not move or charge” my opponent ruled that i could hoewever pile in and consolidate as these are not classed as “moving” or “charging”. I mean, it does literally say cannot move or charge and neither pile in or consolidate are worded as “pile in movement” or “consolate movement” and i certainly wasnt going to argue against him allowing my robots to do so.
The scenario was basically that his Venom had charged my enginseer, made the charge and had drawn the nearby robots into combat. He allowed me to pile in after he resolved his charge attacks on the enginseer. Enginseer and robots combined managed to finish it off (it had 3 wounds at this point)
Incidentally most frustrating match ever, 3 venoms, 2 ravagers and 2 flyers all playing “the floor is lava” on tops of ruins to avoid chicken melee. He won 9-8 on points on turn 5 incidentally with a single squad of 5 warriors remaining. I’d only lost my 3 squads of rangers and 2 chickens from my 1200 points.
You may notice im 4 pts over 1200, thats one of the great things about playing with friends, nobody quibbles over a few points. Even though i could have dropped an arc rifle and been bang on 1200. We just get on and play games.
This same list netted me a 13-9 win against an Eldar force which was a similar story, one or two models/units left and most of my army still alive.
You may notice im 4 pts over 1200, thats one of the great things about playing with friends, nobody quibbles over a few points. Even though i could have dropped an arc rifle and been bang on 1200. We just get on and play games.
This same list netted me a 13-9 win against an Eldar force which was a similar story, one or two models/units left and most of my army still alive.
I m not sure why we talking about a 1200 list but still I would say what I think about your list. And let me clarify 1000 list or. 1750 list would be a valid talk I don't see many play 1200 list maybe it's a friendly kind or something.
A) your list has one detachment and I don't know if you did on purpose or it was also another house rule. If you agreed one detachment then have fun with your list else I would definitely play a battalions and an outrider as I see your units and ppaystyle!. Playing two battalions would alter qyour list completely so I'd say basic change as close to what you play now!
B) The problem with admech remains mostly in their codex utility. In order to maximize the output of CP spending you need bigger units. That said using Robots effectively requires optimal Cawl - dominus - 4+ Robots . You decide to go for more CP to have to spend then again you spend points and can't make the groups larger!
C) smaller lists require focus . So you either get 4+ Robots and effectively buff them wrath them etc or a bs4+ won't provide stable results. Not to mention 3 robots not so hard to deal with even if overwatch . Take flamers and a set of two robots I understand but this is in my eyes wasted 330 points on bs 4 when most enemy lists defence would be a -1 to hit? Stack robots ad destroyers and dominus play the combo . +Hit + wrath with steady reasults rest screen them.
D) 330 points of Robots removed. Ad 47 points enginseers for a new detachment outider stygies. Make one clear battalion most likely from troops Graia.
Stygies would have hq and 1*4dragoons and 2*1 balistary.fast slot can defend can att can infiltrate and all of them screen. The group of 4 Dragoons worth spending CP on their tasers. So total points with autocsnnon balistari 47+ 16 -330= 250 average.
E) make both onagers neutron add one more icarus 130+30 . Left a group of staff priests for stygies options maybe 6 priests etc.
Now we got
1) options. Infiltrate Dragoons or set sniper balistsry as you like.
2) infiltrations is a weapon you need to exploit defence or offence.
3) better usage of CP .
4) durability on troops )
5) mobility. So much mobility win games .
6) go all out offensive use infiltration and attack or use -1 to hit and settle defensively both valid.
7)consistency worse case scenario use your onagers and balistsry for arty rest screen and priests to counter attack . Till more valid that s plot unit list.
Played a 2k point game against Dark Eldar today tournament style. My list wasn't the absolute most competitive admech army you can possibly build, but it has teeth. I think the only reason why I lost ultimately was due to the Dark Eldar player seizing the initiative, and not being able to bank on an Imperial Knight revive, which Dark Eldar is the only faction can do that. Regardless, it was a close game up until the end.
This was a local tournament that played regular Maelstrom missions out of the book, 2 detachment limit, and you cannot have 2 of the same detachment type, so no double battalions.
A bunch of kabalites with blasters in venoms, 1 Raider
Spearhead, the dark eldar peeps with the pain engines, 4+ invuln trait
HQ dude with a 4+ invuln, grotesque I think?
3 Talos pain engines with haywire cannons
So as you can see, the odds were pretty stacked against me, as the list has tons of anti tank that simply just passes through my invuln saves and deals mortal wounds through the haywire rule, which ended up being really what leveraged the game in his favor. The seize definitely didn't help, but it wasn't what tilted the game in his favor ultimately.
If I had the models I would switch out the dunecrawler for another armiger. The Termite itself performed quite well, taking out one Talos with shooting, then charging another one and finishing it off after I forced it to explode with machine spirits revenge.
I did force my opponent to use agents of vect multiple times to use up command points, twice with wrath of mars and once with Our Darkest Hour. It did make a dent in the CP he had available as at the end of turn 5 he only had 1 left.
By the way, anyone saying Monitor Malevolus isn't worth it, yeah I disagree. Especially when your opponent is a whale in terms of stratagems, the more they use the more you get back.
Helverins pop a venom per turn. I can't say that about anything else in the army, especially with skyhunter protocol.
The Plasma Vanguard coming out of the Termites did okay, they didn't really have any ideal targets besides softening up the Talos with the Plasma and hitting Kabalites with the Rad Carbines. I'm still not sure what the ideal unit is for the termite. I know that the plasma Vanguard are a better option than what I was using before, which was Infiltrators. Infiltrators wouldn't have done hardly anything in this case either. The plasma vanguard are more of a generalist unit than anything, and they basically did their job of softening up a target to be finished off by the melta drill.
I honestly believe there's a huge lack of internal balance in the DE codex, because the black heart strat is an auto take. I also feel like there's alot of things that are probably under costed, but most people would say that about us too. All of us know its only a matter of time until phosphor bots get the nerf bat so enjoy them while we can, because after that's gone and the priests get nerfed too, which they will, we'll be back to the drawing board. We've got until Chapter Approved in december most likely.
DE won't escape the same fate though. The game would have been very different without agents of vect, the seize, and high dice rolls for mortal wounds on haywire. The haywire scourges are target priority 1, they're a direct counter to my list and likely most of you guys too since we use a lot of vehicles generally speaking.
Overall I'm happy with the list. Gonna be making tweaks, may switch out the dunecrawler and the arquebus for a warglaive. Even though the arquebus did kill off that damned 4+ invuln T5 character that was bugging the crap out of me. IDK. May end up just taking the icarus array instead.
Oh yeah one more thing: Ionic Bulwark trait for questoris imperial knights is an auto take. My Knight tanked so much disintegration and blaster fire it wasn't even funny. Literally an entire shooting phase of his whole army shooting the Knight, including the haywire weapons for mortal wounds, to bring it down when it was already down a few wounds. The 3+ invuln is just too good.
I mean i wasnt really looking for any kind of list critique, more important was the ruling on the battle protocol, but I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I follow this forum regularly so i already know what you guys consider optimal and the sort of response i would get if i asked for critique. Let me give you some reasoning behind my choices as the environment i play in is very different from the tournament scene.
For context the armies at play today were: dark eldar, orks, eldar, chaos (khorne), my admech and a combined AM + genestealer cults. Not a primarch, knight slamguinus or AM battery in sight no-one other than me had army wide -1 to hit.
So i. Have a 1200pt list because thats what we were playing. We’re not rattling through games, we chat, we joke etc. Good times. The lower points is an attempt to get more games in our timeframe. For the record the choice was 50PL or 1200pts and seeing as my 1200 was 74PL....i welcomed the 1200pts. Its worth noting that the people i played with viewed my army/list as underpointed and in many ways too strong. When you consider most of their 1200 pts were around the 50_60PL mark im inclined to think that probably robots and taser lances are in for a pts increase at some point or an faq to make the lances only explode on a natural 6.
I took a single battalion because i couldnt fit cawl and 4 robots in with enough points spare to actually do anything else, I have no problems killing things thats something admech do rea lly well, I do have great issues claiming objectives and putting perssure on the backfield to give my opponents something other t han the robots to worry about. Hence the 2 squads of 3 dragoons. Which again still mowed down anything they touched. Even with only 3 robots and re roll 1s from canticles i still ruined most things, even the venoms and bombers that are -1 to hit. That many dice it just doesnt matter that much.
My DE opponent is very good, i learn a lot from him, he basically deployed all his venoms and raiader/ravagers on top of ruins and moved them from building to building the entire time, so I at least saved the 2 cp i would have spent on infiltration in that matchup. Especially given most aeldari weaponry is short range he had to move closer anyway and take a round of shooting with the dragoons at -2 before he could get close enough do any real damage.
Lower points were again the reason why i only had a single neutron. I considered taking a 4th robot instead of the beamer onager, but i considered the lack of cawl or a dominus and figured thats too many eggs in one basket after they’re rooted and at this points bracket i dont have to worry about knights or primarchs so wrath of mars feels pointless. The toughest thing i had to take down were wave serpents and the beamer actually gave me great flexibility to take out infantry at range and is a suprisingly good screen when ruins are pretty close together.
I just couldnt make the points work to have an icarus and a neutron. Though i dont really like icarus, not because i dont think they’re effective, but they feel too army-like and a very much dislike the aesthetic of marines and AM.
Anyway, thanks for your input, i hope you can see why some of my choices might not fit with the tournament meta. Generally the people i play against are out for cool stuff to happen, not to press the delete button once a turn in the most efficient manner. One of our group is actually Dan Harden, one of the White Dwarf staff writers, he is so much about the cool stuff he’d rather ignore a rule and it be epic than have endless rules mongering for advantage. Myself and the DE player are about as serious as it gets for us lol
Having fun check! You don't have to explain glad you did! Still if yo consider mobility I tried to give some options. Try test swap your listd that what is nice with lower points you can test more game. Again I only give suggestions I m in favor players should optimize according to their playstyle no matter what forms say or meta etc. Play have fun.
Yoda79 wrote: Having fun check! You don't have to explain glad you did! Still if yo consider mobility I tried to give some options. Try test swap your listd that what is nice with lower points you can test more game. Again I only give suggestions I m in favor players should optimize according to their playstyle no matter what forms say or meta etc. Play have fun.
It won’t always be 1200, its just there were 6 of us on 3 tables and it was a case of either one big game each or 2-3 smaller ones. I personally find 1200 too restrictive for admech so im hoping to get a game in with just one of our group at higher points costs. Then i can do things like have dragoons and balistarii, though i think helverins do that job way way better. I’d love to field balistarii but the whole not being able to move and fire without penalty and not having the innate -1 of dragoons make them less appealing.
I do have a lot more options not having to plan to counter the most tip top rules efficient forces. What i really want to do is get some fulgurites and/or hoplites and peltasts into the mix. Maybe a drill, that i’ll clearly proxy or convert because £75 for a transport is absurd. But then so is £25 for 5 electro priests -_-
I’m kinda moving away from the screening concept, it feels much more fun to overwhelm my opponent with threats and have to make them pick their targets carefully than them know instantly what the biggest threat i have is. Which in most tournament lists is hammer marines, dragoons and robots. Its predictable. My experience so far is the more avenues you have to provide a serious threat that needs dealing with it doesnt matter what those units are. My 2 squads of 3 dragoons really worries people whether they're infiltrated or not. Peltasts might not be in range first turn, but you can advance and blind barrage to make them -2 to hit so they survive long enough to get in range. Fulgurites might not need to be infiltrated if you advance them and infiltrate your dragoons, or vice versa, people tend not to focus on distant melee threats when they already have one right in their face
Hoplites and peltasts are crazy cheap for their utility, though the str 3 on peltasts im less fond of as im now sold on the range, str and potential -1ap of galvanic rifles over radium carbines. Though the hammershot compensates for that, it depends what you’re shooting at. A squad of 10 peltasts is 20 points cheaper than a robot, shoots better (especially with strategms) can move, hold objectives on ruins and is a much more flexible option for getting -2 ap onto stuff.
Atm as I see a competitive game knights are the extra detach I play.
For a brigade pure ad mech most likely I'd use some new elite ones with transports etc. For a competitive 1750-2000 stygies Castelan or Cawl star cc knights are for me good enough
No, you aren't missing anything ... there is a school of thought where the TUA is an expensive rifle both money and points wise ... there is some logic in splitting them up amongst your ranger teams so that your opponent has to kill 4 models before you pull the expensive .
I myself build lists and then spend " extra points on things like snipers , plasma's etc while I wiggle as much bang for my buck in a list ... the snipers are cool ... but REALLY 2 of them cost the same as a dragoon in points and i'd much rather have a dragoon
Fair enough. I personally cannot stand the Dragoon models so that won't be happening. But I see the logic behind only putting 1 in a unit to make it 4 wounds to get to it. Plus it keeps it relatively cheap.
TheMostWize wrote: Fair enough. I personally cannot stand the Dragoon models so that won't be happening. But I see the logic behind only putting 1 in a unit to make it 4 wounds to get to it. Plus it keeps it relatively cheap.
Can't blame you. Dragoons are fantastic models, but they are expensive and difficult to build (and almost impossible to magnetize). Plus, they can be replaced somewhat by Warglaives or Blood Angels. The former comes with a shooty Knight, and the latter with Scouts for a gunline.
I'm torn about the arquebuses lately. I play a squad of 5 Rangers with 2 arquebuses and an Omnispex. On the plus side, they made me win games by themselves sometimes, shooting a QG from across the table through two sets of windows, or one-shotting an important enemy hero, finishing off a vehicle... I love them. And the other side, they might as well stay at home sometimes, rolling 1s or 2s to Wound all game or stuff like that. They require a Dominus nearby for more efficiency, and so I tend to have always the same backline with my snipers, my Robots and my Onagers buffed by my Dominus, and this limits my deployment options considerably. And with the 57 pts I pay for the snipers I could bring 8 more bare Rangers.
Lately I want to play my army way more aggressively, even if it's not entirely the point of AdMech. Using my 3 Dragoons and my 10 Fulgurites as a first distraction, followed by the infantry and the Infiltrators. I even want to try the Beamer Onagers more extensively, they're the cheapest and encourage to move forward, and their D6 shots is nice to deal with tough infantry/light monsters with multi-wounds. I played one in a 1000 pts tournament and was happier than with an Icarus or Laser in this format. Snipers require too much trouble for this kind of list. I'll have to build something with Dark Angels allies, as they are my second army and have mobility with the Inceptors and Ravenwing Bikes. Also this might be easier to play my DW Knights with the numbers of the AdMech to distract the chaff.
I am against snipers. They don't make back their points quickly enough. Plus, it is usually easier to kill what a character is buffing than the character themselves.
AdMech is one of the top tier aggressive armies now. It's pretty much something we have by default, since we have an infiltration mechanic. People pretty much have to worry about strong alpha strike when playing Blood Angels, Alpha Legion, and us. If you take us with Blood Angels, well, people have to deploy carefully.
We also have probably the most must-kill units in the game. Electro-Priests need to be killed before they make a kill and become nearly unkillable. Dragoons need to be stopped before they get in charge range of vehicles; they are terrifyingly efficient can openers. Kastelan Robots need to be tied up in CC before they just wipe entire detachments off the board. So unlike in many matchups, the opponent is pressured to make a ton of high opportunity cost decisions. With Blood Angels on top of this, they have to wall up against a jump pack assault too.
Yea the Ad. Mech I'm looking at are more for filling out my Castellan, Crusader, Gallant force. That's why the arquebus was intriguing. I ended up switching and parsing it down to 2 5 man rangers each with an arquebus and 2 vanguard with 2x Calivers. That couple with 2 tech priests.
It's either that or go sisters for the battalion detachment.
Seems solid. Some form of this has been tour tested . Seems to work but we don't know about consistent results and obj holding heavy missions. For fun it's definitely nice . You most likely can post it into knights lists. I'm worried about the low cp and low troop count. See it with a stygies or graia battalion should get better results from more CP and a few stock troops. You can manage the battalion points and you definitely need the CP more than 3 enginseers!
The third enginseer feels like a waste. If you already have 2 enginseers, can you find points to drop the 3rd and take 3x5 min squads of rangers? the Knights will really benefit from the extra 4CP and the rangers will be the only things you have holding objectives in the backfield. Also, Knights get a lot of benefit and CP gains from being the warlord. Necromechanic would make more sense if you ran long ranged shooting knights that might survive turn over turn. But you are running melee knights that will run far ahead of your enginseers. I would lean towards giving a knight your main WLT so that way the second WLT and second relic for the knights is even cheaper. Something like:
I think helverins would do you better since they can hide on the other side of the board and not feed easy kills. Melee warglaives do basically the same job as the gallants and their shooting is very similar to the damage profile of your gallants. Warglaives will also crowd out space your gallants need to be getting in there and killing. Helverins are very good at being behind cover first turn yet still easily getting within 60" of their targets with their 14" movement. This list would give you 14CP base. If you make a knight your warlord then you can easily get relics for all 3 and WLTs for 2 while still having 10CP base.
TheMostWize wrote: Yea the Ad. Mech I'm looking at are more for filling out my Castellan, Crusader, Gallant force. That's why the arquebus was intriguing. I ended up switching and parsing it down to 2 5 man rangers each with an arquebus and 2 vanguard with 2x Calivers. That couple with 2 tech priests.
It's either that or go sisters for the battalion detachment.
Knight lists need two things:
1) CP 2) Ability to play the board
Both things point to a Guard Battalion and maybe also an AdMech Battalion for repairmen.
I appreciate the responses. My meta tends to have very competitive lists and I've found my skitarii infantry have not been cutting it, hence why I am asking about lists that don't run them. It is true that I do need the CPs, but I usually never make the points back on rangers or vanguard infantry (they get blasted down by custodes bikers, big cultist blobs, guardsmen squads, etc).
I'm also lacking the bits for a 3rd gallant but I figure gallants are really good so I might buy a 4th knight to turn him into a gallant as well.
I am really just trying to avoid wasting points on skitarii, but it seems really that it comes down to having to make a choice: more points spent in the right places vs more CPs for my knights.
I.E. 10 guard vs 5 rangers or 10 guard vs 5 vanguard is really disadvantageous for the skitarii. Seems like giving them special weapons also makes them less point efficient.
Also, I'm not really sure about the helverins. What are their ideal targets? Most of them time I'm fighting cheap inf spam, knights, or custodes. The math seems really bad against all of these targets.
At 2000 points, infantry definitely do not last long, especially outside of Drills. Hence why having quantity is important for baby sitting objectives.
Octovol wrote: I had an interesting ruling in a game i had today, see what you guys think. Bear in mind it was my opponent that ruled this as ok, not me.
So, the wording in Kastellan battle protocols for protector says “may not move or charge” my opponent ruled that i could hoewever pile in and consolidate as these are not classed as “moving” or “charging”. I mean, it does literally say cannot move or charge and neither pile in or consolidate are worded as “pile in movement” or “consolate movement” and i certainly wasnt going to argue against him allowing my robots to do so.
The scenario was basically that his Venom had charged my enginseer, made the charge and had drawn the nearby robots into combat. He allowed me to pile in after he resolved his charge attacks on the enginseer. Enginseer and robots combined managed to finish it off (it had 3 wounds at this point)
Incidentally most frustrating match ever, 3 venoms, 2 ravagers and 2 flyers all playing “the floor is lava” on tops of ruins to avoid chicken melee. He won 9-8 on points on turn 5 incidentally with a single squad of 5 warriors remaining. I’d only lost my 3 squads of rangers and 2 chickens from my 1200 points.
I missed this, but I am very sure piling in is considered moving.
I honestly think flying vehicles should not be allowed to end their moves on top of buildings. It's a bit funny. That being said, Splitting up amongst ruins means they cannot support one another, and something is left exposed. Well, unless their entire army flies.
Taranis Super Heavy Detachment 6CP Knight Warden, Exalted Court Member, Endless Fury, Ion Bulwark
Knight Gallant, Exalted Court Member, Landstrider, Sanctuary
Knight Gallant
You have 8CP after the heirlooms and the exalted court members. You can deep strike the drills, or spend 2 CP to infiltrate them. The rangers give you a bit of a screen as well. This list is definitely gonna catch a few people out.
If your goal is to get your Knights killed, well, you'll succeed.
I would take two barebone Battalions just for the CP. Guard is probably your best bet since the 30 Guardsmen let you screen and play the board with MMM.
The Dominus is superfluous for the army. Rangers don't get much better with rerolling 1s.
One larger unit of Priests is safer than two small units because you need to totally kill what you charge on the first turn or they will melt like butter on a hot summer day. Another option is to take 12 Priests and a Drill; take 11 if you want to bring the Mask along.
You need anti-tank. You cannot and should not rely on your Gallant to provide that for you because there is a good chance it won't make it into melee before the threat gets to shoot. And if a Shadowsword or Castellan gets to shoot first, it pretty much shuts you out. Maybe take a Knight Errant with the relic Thermal Cannon?
Sainted Ion is better than Sanctuary in most circumstances. Most common "heavy" melee weapons have AP-3, meaning a regular 2+ save is no different than 5++ for melee. But the kicker is that you get a much better save against low AP shooting and fighting.
Finally, you don't need two Gallants. It's too inflexible, even for Knights. Bring a diversity of weapons. Two of Warden, Errant, Crusader, or Castellan (Ion Bulwark + Relic Weapon / Landstrider + Sainted Ion) and a cheapo Gallant sound good.
Has anyone thought about using the Prime Hermiticon warlord train on an Admech HQ? Putting one on on a tech priest dominus and then putting the dominus and fulgurites in drills sounds really fun. Problem is then your warlord is right in enemy lines...might be fun though.
Anyways, I just spent like 4 hours putting together 20 secutarii hoplites in one go...oh Omnissiah how I hate resin! I should be using them later on today to test them out!
Octovol wrote: I had an interesting ruling in a game i had today, see what you guys think. Bear in mind it was my opponent that ruled this as ok, not me.
So, the wording in Kastellan battle protocols for protector says “may not move or charge” my opponent ruled that i could hoewever pile in and consolidate as these are not classed as “moving” or “charging”. I mean, it does literally say cannot move or charge and neither pile in or consolidate are worded as “pile in movement” or “consolate movement” and i certainly wasnt going to argue against him allowing my robots to do so.
The scenario was basically that his Venom had charged my enginseer, made the charge and had drawn the nearby robots into combat. He allowed me to pile in after he resolved his charge attacks on the enginseer. Enginseer and robots combined managed to finish it off (it had 3 wounds at this point)
Incidentally most frustrating match ever, 3 venoms, 2 ravagers and 2 flyers all playing “the floor is lava” on tops of ruins to avoid chicken melee. He won 9-8 on points on turn 5 incidentally with a single squad of 5 warriors remaining. I’d only lost my 3 squads of rangers and 2 chickens from my 1200 points.
I missed this, but I am very sure piling in is considered moving.
I honestly think flying vehicles should not be allowed to end their moves on top of buildings. It's a bit funny. That being said, Splitting up amongst ruins means they cannot support one another, and something is left exposed. Well, unless their entire army flies.
I said the same to him! It was him that raised it because i could only get 2 of my robots in combat without the pile in. I’ve just checked the core rules and it does describe pile in and consolidate as ‘you may move up to 3”’ so my take is that we wouldnt be able to do any of those moves.
Oh his whole army was flying. 3 venoms, 2 raiders, 1 ravager all filled with troops and hqs and 2 flyers whose name escapes me. Because all of these vehicles are open topped, which has no penalty like it used to in 7th as far as i can see, units embarked on all these units can fire out the top there was no need for them to disembark without me destroying them. Which i did. Arc rifles were actually pretty effective as venoms and raiders are only t5.
Suzuteo wrote: If your goal is to get your Knights killed, well, you'll succeed.
I would take two barebone Battalions just for the CP. Guard is probably your best bet since the 30 Guardsmen let you screen and play the board with MMM.
The Dominus is superfluous for the army. Rangers don't get much better with rerolling 1s.
One larger unit of Priests is safer than two small units because you need to totally kill what you charge on the first turn or they will melt like butter on a hot summer day. Another option is to take 12 Priests and a Drill; take 11 if you want to bring the Mask along.
You need anti-tank. You cannot and should not rely on your Gallant to provide that for you because there is a good chance it won't make it into melee before the threat gets to shoot. And if a Shadowsword or Castellan gets to shoot first, it pretty much shuts you out. Maybe take a Knight Errant with the relic Thermal Cannon?
Sainted Ion is better than Sanctuary in most circumstances. Most common "heavy" melee weapons have AP-3, meaning a regular 2+ save is no different than 5++ for melee. But the kicker is that you get a much better save against low AP shooting and fighting.
Finally, you don't need two Gallants. It's too inflexible, even for Knights. Bring a diversity of weapons. Two of Warden, Errant, Crusader, or Castellan (Ion Bulwark + Relic Weapon / Landstrider + Sainted Ion) and a cheapo Gallant sound good.
I appreciate the feedback but your tone could use some work haha.
I've been playing the gak out of my gallant with sanctuary and I have to say I definitely prefer sanctuary over the sainted iron. Rotate ion shields works in cc, and a 4++ with him in combat can really make him tanky. Sainted iron only really helps against small arms fire as I typically rotate against anything scary.
I overlooked the idea of an errant with the relic thermal cannon. I tossed in the dominus as I had some spare points laying around as he can get the drills rerolls on their melta cutters, as well as being a (barely) more survivable character than the enginseers. I agree the second gallant was out of place for sure and off the cuff the thermal cannon seems better even though the average number of shots is less. I think that alone could really bump up this list.
Sainted ion gives you a +1 boost vs ap 0-4 in CC And AP0-2 range
Sanctuary gives no boost at range and no boost vs AP 0/AP1in CC it gives you +1 boost vs AP2 if you spend the CP to rotate ion shields matching sacred ion. (Without spending CP it matches sacred ion at AP3).
At AP3 with CP or AP4+ without it is better.
In most circumstances sanctuary is the weaker choice. However I certainly would consider sideboarding it vs say a tyranid CC list
Heafstaag wrote: Has anyone thought about using the Prime Hermiticon warlord train on an Admech HQ? Putting one on on a tech priest dominus and then putting the dominus and fulgurites in drills sounds really fun. Problem is then your warlord is right in enemy lines...might be fun though.
Anyways, I just spent like 4 hours putting together 20 secutarii hoplites in one go...oh Omnissiah how I hate resin! I should be using them later on today to test them out!
Well, if you're bringing Fulgurites, you can do Hermeticon and Mask. But this seems like an all-in strategy that can go really wrong.
Ugh, matching all the robes and legs then cleaning up the seams is what drives me nuts about Skitarii. So glad most of my Tech Guard are kitbashed.
linds14sr20det wrote: I appreciate the feedback but your tone could use some work haha.
I've been playing the gak out of my gallant with sanctuary and I have to say I definitely prefer sanctuary over the sainted iron. Rotate ion shields works in cc, and a 4++ with him in combat can really make him tanky. Sainted iron only really helps against small arms fire as I typically rotate against anything scary.
I overlooked the idea of an errant with the relic thermal cannon. I tossed in the dominus as I had some spare points laying around as he can get the drills rerolls on their melta cutters, as well as being a (barely) more survivable character than the enginseers. I agree the second gallant was out of place for sure and off the cuff the thermal cannon seems better even though the average number of shots is less. I think that alone could really bump up this list.
I am usually one of the more tame posters in this thread, so tone policing me seems sort of quaint.
I guess so. I actually do not play with Gallants, but I fear one with Sainted Ion more, as most of my strategies for defeating it involve dumping low AP shooting and fighting on it. (Knights that don't have Overwatch are very vulnerable to being countercharged.)
xlDuke wrote: Doesn't the Omniscient Mask only work for keyword Skitarii units?
Yup.
I'd rather rely on canticles for re-roll 1s than put my warlord in the firing line. Our characters arent terrible in combat, but if you throw enough dice at them all at once they'll soon die. My last 2 battles both my enginseers survived the entire match by just hiding them within range to repair robots and onagers. The fact that all our HQ can repair themselves and optionally do it twice means you pretty much have to commit significantly to take one down or risk it being more or less back at full strength next turn.
I found I could rely on canticles for re-roll 1s on robots so the massive points difference between a dominus and enginseer isn't worth it imo. You don't want them in combat and their ranged weapons are quite short range for where you want to keep them.
Ya know I was thinking i'd probably take a data smith if they could change the battle protocol instantly at the beginning of movement. Or if a tech-priest keyword model conferred an aura bonus to say kataphrons, like it does for other servitors.
I have spammed every know forum for codex change to make datasmiths also able to get as hq. But no hope ! If only we could actually get a serious hq doing something more important than hoding enginseers back field
xlDuke wrote: Doesn't the Omniscient Mask only work for keyword Skitarii units?
Ah right. Darn. Works with Hoplites though. Haha.
That being said, Monitor is the better Warlord trait.
Yoda79 wrote: I have spammed every know forum for codex change to make datasmiths also able to get as hq. But no hope ! If only we could actually get a serious hq doing something more important than hoding enginseers back field
Yeah. I would love to see a Sicarius or Skitarius Prime. Or a Ballistarius Dominus! Datasmith is okay too, especially for Kastelan-focused armies. I mean, you rarely need more than one anyway.
Knight Gallant [20 PL, 370pts]: Heavy stubber, Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, Ironstorm missile pod, Reaper chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet, Warlord Trait: Landstrider
. Character: Exalted Court Member
Knight Gallant [20 PL, 370pts]: Heavy stubber, Heirloom: Mark of the Omnissiah, Ironstorm missile pod, Reaper chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
. Character: Exalted Court Member
Idea being that I provide no squishy infantry targets to fire at. All T7 or T8. Durable, and Cawl being the warlord denies the opponent Slay the Warlord unless they clear out literally everything else.
So what do you do if someone has a bunch of planes or you see lots of high invuln speedy models? You have no real weight of fire. I feel the onagers would do a lot more as Icarus arrays, since your 3 gallants will be more than enough to kill most armor, but they're useless if you can't clear a screen.
Also those knights will get absolutely murdered by Capt smash and other speedy melee units, making their usefulness as a screen questionable.
The onagers would hit on 4s with icarus arrays (even with Cawl around, that's icky), and the gallants won't be able to clear out tanks by themselves.
Trick is to go first. And if that doesn't work, just bring your knight back from the dead for 2 CP, pay 1 CP to regain base stats, and put Capt Smash 6 feet under in your close combat phase.
LexOdin9 wrote: The onagers would hit on 4s with icarus arrays (even with Cawl around, that's icky), and the gallants won't be able to clear out tanks by themselves.
Trick is to go first. And if that doesn't work, just bring your knight back from the dead for 2 CP, pay 1 CP to regain base stats, and put Capt Smash 6 feet under in your close combat phase.
If you are going to play Knights, you need to de-risk the army. A lot can go wrong here, a fact that is exacerbated by the lack of mutually supporting elements. A full half of your army follows the same strategy and vulnerabilities. For example, if you were up against me, you would have to somehow protect your Crawlers from Slamguinius and Mephiston all while killing your way through 9 units of infantry to get to my Kastelans and Basilisks, which drop one Gallant every turn. Really, there is no threat whatsoever to my army that is not deeply threatened in turn.
I think 3 Dunecrawlers is too little to be really worth Cawl over the standard Magos.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yoda79 wrote: I have spammed every know forum for codex change to make datasmiths also able to get as hq. But no hope ! If only we could actually get a serious hq doing something more important than hoding enginseers back field
Enginseers were originally Elites only and boy did that suck.
I can’t think of much reason why I wound want a Datasmith over an Enginseer.
ph34r wrote: I think 3 Dunecrawlers is too little to be really worth Cawl over the standard Magos.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yoda79 wrote: I have spammed every know forum for codex change to make datasmiths also able to get as hq. But no hope ! If only we could actually get a serious hq doing something more important than hoding enginseers back field
Enginseers were originally Elites only and boy did that suck.
I can’t think of much reason why I wound want a Datasmith over an Enginseer.
Yeah, you need 700 points of shooting or so to make Cawl more worthwhile than a Dominus.
I would take a Smith and a Enginseer over two Enginseers.
A datasmith his a undercosted terminator with a cool pistol, it's better on every single aspect than a enginseer.
Basically is a standard terminator with two more wounds, better movement, better gun and master of machines ability.
Cost wise is just 4 points more than a termy, it's a really wise priced units.
A standard unit of termy has 10 wounds and 11 attacks for 192 points, if you take 5 datasmith they perform quite similar in CAC, with 10 attacks but they have 40 wounds AND they can repair their pets for 20 points more.
I'd love to have Datasmiths HQs, they make more sense than Enginseers who are just glorified mechanics. I have a tradition to send mine in Berserk mode whenever his Robots get killed, sending him in CC against the first enemy he finds. He punched 4W off a Predator once this way
The biggest downside for me is that datasmiths can only repair robots. My enginseers keep themselves and other things alive for much less points than a dominus.
I'd happilly take 2 enginseers and a datasmith for a brigade. If only it didn't take an entire turn to switch robot battle protocols, then I wouldn't have to scuttle my robots, i'd have the option of switching them to aegis to move them etc. It would be pointless if they could be switched instantly by a datasmith though. I just dislike taking robots JUST to park them and fire, they become a huge target.
brugner8 wrote: A datasmith his a undercosted terminator with a cool pistol, it's better on every single aspect than a enginseer.
Basically is a standard terminator with two more wounds, better movement, better gun and master of machines ability.
Cost wise is just 4 points more than a termy, it's a really wise priced units.
A standard unit of termy has 10 wounds and 11 attacks for 192 points, if you take 5 datasmith they perform quite similar in CAC, with 10 attacks but they have 40 wounds AND they can repair their pets for 20 points more.
Wow. You're right. Alas, we're only allowed to have 3 of them. So nobody will ever be able to live the dream of sticking 12 into a Drill and come out Power Fists a-punching.
LexOdin9 wrote: The onagers would hit on 4s with icarus arrays (even with Cawl around, that's icky), and the gallants won't be able to clear out tanks by themselves.
Trick is to go first. And if that doesn't work, just bring your knight back from the dead for 2 CP, pay 1 CP to regain base stats, and put Capt Smash 6 feet under in your close combat phase.
If you are going to play Knights, you need to de-risk the army. A lot can go wrong here, a fact that is exacerbated by the lack of mutually supporting elements. A full half of your army follows the same strategy and vulnerabilities. For example, if you were up against me, you would have to somehow protect your Crawlers from Slamguinius and Mephiston all while killing your way through 9 units of infantry to get to my Kastelans and Basilisks, which drop one Gallant every turn. Really, there is no threat whatsoever to my army that is not deeply threatened in turn.
This argument is what we like to call in the business "peen swinging." Or the classic "my dad can beat up your dad" argument. Cringe.
U02dah4 wrote: Catachan executioner with harker is the best in most circumstances. Onager was great at index level but people need to change with the times.
Admech are an assault army not an artillary army now
Well I d love to see an ad mech army full assault still after some result comparisons I can't say that desisively .
Although seems like the proper choise ad mech still feels overcosted for assault melee oriented lists. I don't see any unit having that extra flavor to make it happen . Dragoons are good priest fine nice transport but somewhat if you plant to go smash your enemy you might wanna consider BA. And the results are ofc more consistent.
While even if you see results in paper that say they here are better gun lines out there ad mech and especially a Cawl star is a fearsome threat in any environment. Cost effective Cawl reroll Robots overall broken and onagerd v v durable and cost effective and healable forming a good plan ad mech plan that is . With fluff etc.
Yes I understand yes my thouthts and list preferable contains a Castelan two helverins and a stygies priests Dragoons detachment but the results are not consistent. Ad mech has options but does not exploit so much unit ose the melee options.
Our biggest advantage is still infiotration but we don't have that hq buff combo or unit durable maybe a high invu or something. Maybe if you get to play priests first or maybe if you ensure a 2*19 priest group you might start more steady results but that's still a big if especially vs an heavy shooter army going first. If you hide your priests they are slow if you get them in transports they need to b max 12 . And even if you decide to play 3*12*3 priests in transports even so no actual combination make this a overcosted option. It seems a bit more viable with ransports may be if we get a reduced cost for the drill.
With knights are the same. You take one knight would t become a serious plan if you take two you heading to overcosted and focused list with it's plus and minus. And off all those lists are viable what I'm trying to say is beyond Cawl star I don't see yet our flavor Xcel. More options some fun lists love knights sure we can test many more options atm try a lot more units but still we can't say we are more that a v v good gunline beyond Cawl star. Rest are good but not superb vs other options.
LexOdin9 wrote: The onagers would hit on 4s with icarus arrays (even with Cawl around, that's icky), and the gallants won't be able to clear out tanks by themselves.
Trick is to go first. And if that doesn't work, just bring your knight back from the dead for 2 CP, pay 1 CP to regain base stats, and put Capt Smash 6 feet under in your close combat phase.
If you are going to play Knights, you need to de-risk the army. A lot can go wrong here, a fact that is exacerbated by the lack of mutually supporting elements. A full half of your army follows the same strategy and vulnerabilities. For example, if you were up against me, you would have to somehow protect your Crawlers from Slamguinius and Mephiston all while killing your way through 9 units of infantry to get to my Kastelans and Basilisks, which drop one Gallant every turn. Really, there is no threat whatsoever to my army that is not deeply threatened in turn.
This argument is what we like to call in the business "peen swinging." Or the classic "my dad can beat up your dad" argument. Cringe.
To be fair, I asked for criticism and a lot of his observations ring true. On the flip side of the coin, by taking on these vulnerabilities I've eliminated other vulnerabilities.
Goldenemperor wrote: This argument is what we like to call in the business "peen swinging." Or the classic "my dad can beat up your dad" argument. Cringe.
How is this peen swinging? I'm just referencing a matchup where having three Gallants might be a huge weakness rather than a strength. The fact that my army is being used as the example doesn't make this any less true. Any strong shooting army that can prevent your Knights from getting into melee is a bad matchup. Overcommitting to any strategy produces these outsized effects.
You're going to be taking turns deploying units, so it is best you deploy with some flexibility in mind.
Your best bet would be to hide your three Crawlers on one side of the board (table edges are your friends!) with clear lines of sight into the enemy deployment. This reduces the amount of safe space that they have to deploy in. The Skitarii go in front of the Crawlers. If you have only 15, I recommend a long, thin line with excess Skitarii place in the center. The Knights come last. I actually am not sure you could ever deploy 3 Gallants in a way where at least one won't be useless, so I will leave that to you.
Suzuteo wrote: Also, this is not a very wise deployment:
You're going to be taking turns deploying units, so it is best you deploy with some flexibility in mind.
Your best bet would be to hide your three Crawlers on one side of the board (table edges are your friends!) with clear lines of sight into the enemy deployment. This reduces the amount of safe space that they have to deploy in. The Skitarii go in front of the Crawlers. If you have only 15, I recommend a long, thin line with excess Skitarii place in the center. The Knights come last. I actually am not sure you could ever deploy 3 Gallants in a way where at least one won't be useless, so I will leave that to you.
I was going to ask you competitive minded chaps a related question actually. For someone who tends to win or lose games based on how I deployed. (Seriously it really seems t be coming down to this recently)
Where is a good place to learn a smarter way of doing things? Any good YouTube channels or batreps that help a newer player deploy sensibly? I tend to think I’m doing a good job then realise a glaring weakness once the game has started
Have we settled on whats the best way to use our termites now? I am not even sure which forgeworld is used best with this thing. Stygies with E-Priests? than what? is it a huge difference to Lucius E-Priests?
I think it works something like this:
1. Load up 12 Electro-Priests (or Hoplites) into the Drill.
2. Infiltrate the Drill.
3. Move the Drill. Then charge something with it.
4. Next turn, disembark the Electro-Priests and have them one-inch punch whatever your Drill is fighting.
Basically, the job of the Drill is to get your Priests into melee range relatively safe.
Suzuteo wrote: Well, Drills can already Deep Strike, so Stygies.
I think it works something like this:
1. Load up 12 Electro-Priests (or Hoplites) into the Drill.
2. Infiltrate the Drill.
3. Move the Drill. Then charge something with it.
4. Next turn, disembark the Electro-Priests and have them one-inch punch whatever your Drill is fighting.
Basically, the job of the Drill is to get your Priests into melee range relatively safe.
This just doesn’t quite seem worth it to me. The reduction in the Fulgurites potential squad size feels like a mighty big trade-off for a little protection and a different attack profile.
What about keeping the traditional Stygies blog and putting a Mars detachment of Vanguard or Corpsucarri in a drill for a pop-up Wrath of Mars on turn 2.
Keep in mind that drill has a decent amount of shooting and hits like a truck in melee as well. It also helps lower drops to ensure you go first and gives the priests some 3 inches of "free" movement thanks to how disembark works.
The termite is not a traditional transport, it's basically an IFV. An IFV that's as tough as a leman Russ and can deep strike, that's not something to take lightly
Also keep in mind that its really easy to surround it, kill it and every Priest inside because you cant place them. I think that drill is really risky. If your opponent goes first you have to put that thing somewhere where its not chargeable so Priests wont die through surrounding. This means that slow drill will move over a lot of Board to do something useful. Am I just thinking this wrong?
Iago40k wrote: Also keep in mind that its really easy to surround it, kill it and every Priest inside because you cant place them. I think that drill is really risky. If your opponent goes first you have to put that thing somewhere where its not chargeable so Priests wont die through surrounding. This means that slow drill will move over a lot of Board to do something useful. Am I just thinking this wrong?
kinetoscopic wrote: This just doesn’t quite seem worth it to me. The reduction in the Fulgurites potential squad size feels like a mighty big trade-off for a little protection and a different attack profile.
What about keeping the traditional Stygies blog and putting a Mars detachment of Vanguard or Corpsucarri in a drill for a pop-up Wrath of Mars on turn 2.
Electro-Priests are most vulnerable at two points:
1) Before they make their first unit kill, while they are in the open.
2) During Overwatch.
Drills eliminate both problems. Fulgurites are never in the open, and they don't really take Overwatch either, since they can come in behind the Drill.
Corpuscarii are strictly inferior because they don't benefit nearly as much from Zealous Congregation, and furthermore, they don't get the huge durability boost that Fulgurites do after making a unit kill.
Iago40k wrote: Also keep in mind that its really easy to surround it, kill it and every Priest inside because you cant place them. I think that drill is really risky. If your opponent goes first you have to put that thing somewhere where its not chargeable so Priests wont die through surrounding. This means that slow drill will move over a lot of Board to do something useful. Am I just thinking this wrong?
I am not 100% sure, but I think 12 Priests can fit inside the destroyed Drill's footprint. Furthermore, if people want to cluster around a Drill, let's not forget that Machine Spirit's Revenge exists. Though I guess there is a risk if you're fighting a really big horde... in which case, I would advise you to de-risk the situation as best you can, such as by keeping a pair of Drills close together.
Iago40k wrote: Also keep in mind that its really easy to surround it, kill it and every Priest inside because you cant place them. I think that drill is really risky. If your opponent goes first you have to put that thing somewhere where its not chargeable so Priests wont die through surrounding. This means that slow drill will move over a lot of Board to do something useful. Am I just thinking this wrong?
The Termite is too awkward a shape to just surround that easily.
Something occurred to me earlier today, it’s not amazing but i thought i’d share it just incase it ends up being a crucial play for someone.
It’s expensive cp-wise, but gloria mechanicus allows you to instantly change your canticle. Instantly. That includes halway through a phase. So for example you could have chant of the remorseless fist on for re-roll 1s in the fight phase on, then after you’ve resolved your hit rolls pay your cp and switch to invocation of machine might for +1 str when wounding.
Or even ram as many units into combat as you can and switch to litany of the electromancer.
Like i said, not necessarily game changing, but it could be the difference between destroying a unit and not, and if that is a significant enough play it may be worth it. We dont often have much support for our assault armies, so re-rolling those 1s on dragoons against a knight when you have your +2 then switching to +1 str to wound on a 3 might just tip it enough to outright kill it.
That's pretty good! Also very relevant to the current termite/priest discussion. Killing a squad with fulgurites could be made easier with such means. It is expensive though, as you say.
Octovol wrote: Something occurred to me earlier today, it’s not amazing but i thought i’d share it just incase it ends up being a crucial play for someone.
It’s expensive cp-wise, but gloria mechanicus allows you to instantly change your canticle. Instantly. That includes halway through a phase. So for example you could have chant of the remorseless fist on for re-roll 1s in the fight phase on, then after you’ve resolved your hit rolls pay your cp and switch to invocation of machine might for +1 str when wounding.
Or even ram as many units into combat as you can and switch to litany of the electromancer.
Like i said, not necessarily game changing, but it could be the difference between destroying a unit and not, and if that is a significant enough play it may be worth it. We dont often have much support for our assault armies, so re-rolling those 1s on dragoons against a knight when you have your +2 then switching to +1 str to wound on a 3 might just tip it enough to outright kill it.
Yeah. I think this was discussed back when the codex first released. Thing is, back then, we were really CP starved, so 2 CP seem exorbitant for anything but the reroll 1s into +1S for Dragoons.
Iago40k wrote: Also keep in mind that its really easy to surround it, kill it and every Priest inside because you cant place them. I think that drill is really risky. If your opponent goes first you have to put that thing somewhere where its not chargeable so Priests wont die through surrounding. This means that slow drill will move over a lot of Board to do something useful. Am I just thinking this wrong?
The Termite is too awkward a shape to just surround that easily.
I mean yeah its base to hull measuring but I really dont see why its odd shape makes it any harder to surround if you want to make it happen. So AdMech player need to have an eye on that. Which means we have to keep it rather far in the back if we dont have first turn. Which also means that we paid Premium price for a transport that drives our priests 6 inches over the board each round and gets blown up pretty easy.
Suzuteo wrote: Something occurred to me earlier today, it’s not amazing but i thought i’d share it just incase it ends up being a crucial play for someone.
It’s expensive cp-wise, but gloria mechanicus allows you to instantly change your canticle.
Thing is, back then, we were really CP starved, so 2 CP seem exorbitant for anything but the reroll 1s into +1S for Dragoons.
I realised this the other day as well. 2 CP to change canticle back when the codex came out was a ridiculous idea... you could do Wrath of Mars for that! What a terrible stratagem.
But now I go into games with 12+ CP's, of which approx 40% will come back to me... there's some super clever stuff that can be done.
The most basic is... if you get 1st turn, pick reroll 1's or whatever... then switch to shroudpsalm.
If you get 2nd turn, pick shoudpsalm then immediately switch to reroll 1's or whatever for your own phase.
On the downside i realised that my MARS admech army with a TARANIS knight only confers one of the two canticle rolls when using Knight of the Cog, not both. So you need to roll canticles one at a time really.
I think I've only ever done that for the Rerolls of 1 for shooting and then Shroudpsalm. With us having Termites available needing that T1 is less important though.
Suzuteo wrote: Something occurred to me earlier today, it’s not amazing but i thought i’d share it just incase it ends up being a crucial play for someone.
It’s expensive cp-wise, but gloria mechanicus allows you to instantly change your canticle.
Thing is, back then, we were really CP starved, so 2 CP seem exorbitant for anything but the reroll 1s into +1S for Dragoons.
I realised this the other day as well. 2 CP to change canticle back when the codex came out was a ridiculous idea... you could do Wrath of Mars for that! What a terrible stratagem.
But now I go into games with 12+ CP's, of which approx 40% will come back to me... there's some super clever stuff that can be done.
The most basic is... if you get 1st turn, pick reroll 1's or whatever... then switch to shroudpsalm.
If you get 2nd turn, pick shoudpsalm then immediately switch to reroll 1's or whatever for your own phase.
On the downside i realised that my MARS admech army with a TARANIS knight only confers one of the two canticle rolls when using Knight of the Cog, not both. So you need to roll canticles one at a time really.
That raises the question. If I have shroudpsalm and reroll 1s do I pick which the knight has or is it order of selection?
Suzuteo wrote: Something occurred to me earlier today, it’s not amazing but i thought i’d share it just incase it ends up being a crucial play for someone.
It’s expensive cp-wise, but gloria mechanicus allows you to instantly change your canticle.
Thing is, back then, we were really CP starved, so 2 CP seem exorbitant for anything but the reroll 1s into +1S for Dragoons.
I realised this the other day as well. 2 CP to change canticle back when the codex came out was a ridiculous idea... you could do Wrath of Mars for that! What a terrible stratagem.
But now I go into games with 12+ CP's, of which approx 40% will come back to me... there's some super clever stuff that can be done.
The most basic is... if you get 1st turn, pick reroll 1's or whatever... then switch to shroudpsalm.
If you get 2nd turn, pick shoudpsalm then immediately switch to reroll 1's or whatever for your own phase.
On the downside i realised that my MARS admech army with a TARANIS knight only confers one of the two canticle rolls when using Knight of the Cog, not both. So you need to roll canticles one at a time really.
That raises the question. If I have shroudpsalm and reroll 1s do I pick which the knight has or is it order of selection?
Wait what? I think someone clipped the quote wrong. That was Octovol, not me. xD
Knight of the Cog grants the Canticles ability, so it becomes like all non-Mars AdMech units. If you change the Canticle after Knight of the Cog, the Knight gets the updated Canticle as well.
Something along the lines like this with an option to swap out a Dunecrawler and a Robot for 10x Fulgurites and a Termite Drill to add pressure on any Kronos fire support. Might swap out Endless Fury for Sanctuary and Ion Bulwark for Knight Seneschal for the extra stomps and gauntlet swings against Hive Tyrants. A Gallant is tempting as well but I'm concerned with it getting bogged down by Genestealers and while it can take them down with stomps well enough I'm not sure of its overall effectiveness.
At this point, I'm not a big fan of Kastelan Robots in Stygies. Of course, some others here have been doing it. I would love to hear them chime in. But the way I envision Kastelans being used is to switch to Protector mode and kill 400+ points worth of enemies in a single turn, then disrupt movement in their 36" LOS for the remainder of the game.
For Stygies shooting, 3-6x Ironstrider units are really good. You can run two units and constantly move/advance and shoot from 48" away. Rage and Doctrina let you shoot at BS2 or BS3.
Consider Sainted Ion. It's great for <AP-3 fighting and shooting. Gallant is a really bad idea against any horde army. The primary problem is that you cannot fight where you cannot stand.
The idea with the Kastelans is to switch them to Protector protocol and try and take out as many of the horde as I can. Hitting on 4+ isn't great but rerolling 1's with a TPD and with the sheer amount of shots should put a nice dent at least. I like Sanctuary because of the prevalence of AP -3 and better melee Tyranids have, getting it to a 4++ with Rotate Ion Shields is huge especially if I'm going with a Warden that wants to be in combat.
So I just found out about the transport. I have several questions.
1) Has anyone planned to run the shooty priests out of them? Assault 3, Wrath of Mars, and +1 to hit so that they get 3 hits on 5+. If you fill up a drill, that's 36 shots base at strength 5...plus the extra hits...plus Wrath mortal wounds...and that was without mentioning that someone like me would run like 3 drills. Sounds like they will be useful.
2) Cawl is infantry. Can he jump in one of these things? For laughs? I just want to see him crawl out like some kind of eldritch abomination from a machine that is clearly bigger on the inside.
3) Those drills are designed to kill characters. 6 attacks to start with, wounding everything on 2s, 3D a pop, AND if the poor sod is still alive, the mortal wounds rules are fricking awesome. Anyone going to run them like that in any list? You could almost run it empty just for that.
Ravemastaj wrote: So I just found out about the transport. I have several questions.
1) Has anyone planned to run the shooty priests out of them? Assault 3, Wrath of Mars, and +1 to hit so that they get 3 hits on 5+. If you fill up a drill, that's 36 shots base at strength 5...plus the extra hits...plus Wrath mortal wounds...and that was without mentioning that someone like me would run like 3 drills. Sounds like they will be useful.
2) Cawl is infantry. Can he jump in one of these things? For laughs? I just want to see him crawl out like some kind of eldritch abomination from a machine that is clearly bigger on the inside.
3) Those drills are designed to kill characters. 6 attacks to start with, wounding everything on 2s, 3D a pop, AND if the poor sod is still alive, the mortal wounds rules are fricking awesome. Anyone going to run them like that in any list? You could almost run it empty just for that.
1. I've been throwing Vanguard in them so no comment.
2. The rules of the Drill forbid him.
3. Definitely run them at something worth a good amount of points if you can. I imagine they can take even a good chunk off a Knight but I haven't run the math on it as I haven't made a successful charge with them ever yet.
Ravemastaj wrote: So I just found out about the transport. I have several questions.
1) Has anyone planned to run the shooty priests out of them? Assault 3, Wrath of Mars, and +1 to hit so that they get 3 hits on 5+. If you fill up a drill, that's 36 shots base at strength 5...plus the extra hits...plus Wrath mortal wounds...and that was without mentioning that someone like me would run like 3 drills. Sounds like they will be useful.
2) Cawl is infantry. Can he jump in one of these things? For laughs? I just want to see him crawl out like some kind of eldritch abomination from a machine that is clearly bigger on the inside.
3) Those drills are designed to kill characters. 6 attacks to start with, wounding everything on 2s, 3D a pop, AND if the poor sod is still alive, the mortal wounds rules are fricking awesome. Anyone going to run them like that in any list? You could almost run it empty just for that.
The Protector Doctrinal Imperative can't be used on Electro-Priests as they aren't Skitarii and as said already Cawl isn't allowed in a Drill. If you can attack a character with the drill you'll probably do a lot of damage, they seem like they'd be good against light vehicles as well. Really looking forward to trying my pair out when I get them.
Ravemastaj wrote: So I just found out about the transport. I have several questions.
1) Has anyone planned to run the shooty priests out of them? Assault 3, Wrath of Mars, and +1 to hit so that they get 3 hits on 5+. If you fill up a drill, that's 36 shots base at strength 5...plus the extra hits...plus Wrath mortal wounds...and that was without mentioning that someone like me would run like 3 drills. Sounds like they will be useful.
2) Cawl is infantry. Can he jump in one of these things? For laughs? I just want to see him crawl out like some kind of eldritch abomination from a machine that is clearly bigger on the inside.
3) Those drills are designed to kill characters. 6 attacks to start with, wounding everything on 2s, 3D a pop, AND if the poor sod is still alive, the mortal wounds rules are fricking awesome. Anyone going to run them like that in any list? You could almost run it empty just for that.
I've tried the shooty priests in the drill. They're pretty good against infantry, but as others pointed out you can't boost their to hit roll with the skitarri specific stratagem. If you want to go for a bomb using wrath of mars, basic vanguard are cheaper and have the same number of shots. Infiltrators with uzis would have the most shots and if you take 10 they only cost 20 more points than the shooty priests and they could do some work in the assault phase.
Ravemastaj wrote: So I just found out about the transport. I have several questions.
1) Has anyone planned to run the shooty priests out of them? Assault 3, Wrath of Mars, and +1 to hit so that they get 3 hits on 5+. If you fill up a drill, that's 36 shots base at strength 5...plus the extra hits...plus Wrath mortal wounds...and that was without mentioning that someone like me would run like 3 drills. Sounds like they will be useful.
2) Cawl is infantry. Can he jump in one of these things? For laughs? I just want to see him crawl out like some kind of eldritch abomination from a machine that is clearly bigger on the inside.
3) Those drills are designed to kill characters. 6 attacks to start with, wounding everything on 2s, 3D a pop, AND if the poor sod is still alive, the mortal wounds rules are fricking awesome. Anyone going to run them like that in any list? You could almost run it empty just for that.
I've tried the shooty priests in the drill. They're pretty good against infantry, but as others pointed out you can't boost their to hit roll with the skitarri specific stratagem. If you want to go for a bomb using wrath of mars, basic vanguard are cheaper and have the same number of shots. Infiltrators with uzis would have the most shots and if you take 10 they only cost 20 more points than the shooty priests and they could do some work in the assault phase.
A squad of 10 infiltrators (22 each) is 80pts more expensive than a squad of 10 corpuscarii (14 each)
But you do get more wounds with infiltrators, but better saves with priests, depends what you’re up against.
Your cheapest wrath of mars candidate WOULD be Peltasts at 90pts per squad of 10 for 40 shots at 12” and +2 to hit from doctrina. But sadly they dont have the forgeworld keyword, so bleh.
Corpuscarii are probably still your best bet for a drill wrath bomb. Remember you can also pick up some mortal wounds from the priests voltageist shield when charging. BUT infiltrators get to use those pistols with wrath of mars while in combat range, which the priests dont. Corpuscarii are probably still your best bet.
Thats if your 4-6 robots arent in range of anything, because the number of shots far outstrips the 1 less balistic skill of any unit anywhere in any army.
I’ve stopped taking Cawl with my robots because it just feels unfair. Even without a tech-priest buddy they’re more than enough to delete a unit or two of anything short of a LoW.
I think Stygies Drill + Fulgurites is the way to go. Infiltrate the Drill, move into position, pop out and fight the next turn.
I am in the process of stripping and rebasing my Peltasts for use as Vanguard/Rangers. If they were the Troop slot, I might consider using them, but they're sort of a disappointment in how they lack synergy with Knights and such.
I have yet to try this, but I'm sure some you guys have. I'm thinking of a unit of 11, and a unit of 12 fulgurites in drills accompanied by a tech priest engineseer with the omnicient mask. I also plan on a third drill with 2 units of 6 vanguard with 2 plasma calivers in each to drop in a bit of close range fire support. I think that sounds pretty mean.
Problem is the Omniscient Mask only works on Skitarii, Electropriests are Cult Mechanicus, I would probably only use it if I was infiltrating Dragoons nearby. I'd stuff an Enginseer in anyway though just to repair the Drill, I feel like it could do a lot of work by itself.
The main issue remains for ad mech. Codex is trash designed early released and bad written.
1) you are forced to use guard for cp cycling. 5+/5+ don't even come close to 6+ for every stratagem used not CP used.
So main change 6+ for every CP used.
2) the hq no synergy tax. We got no real aura from our hq. The mask does not work the CP won't be used with synergy . And it's not a complain it's a fact. You got specific ad mech strats. Period
Mask won't synergise troops don't worth it can't make hq combo beyond Cawl and if try to take inflitrators or peltast etc you again pay tax in points vs other armies for no real plan .
3) the duo dimension strategy stygies Dragoons - priests maybe drill and Cawl star competitive wise has no competition rest are semi working!
Why invest 2*5 ppasma vang in a drill? Semi competitive vs many assault armies /points invest
Priests we got the infiltration and it's good waste 130 pints for a drill just to lower the unit count is not optimal for me still viable and somewhat forming our one strat.
Lastly if we are to support other armies as vehicle killers then again we are forced to take dakka lines and soup screen . I really don't understand the whole design for ad mech it still feels badly designed? After lowering the cost after some codex even transport still feels bad.
Take the knight detachment once more is a must take and the current state of the game clearly shows knights are atm strong.
Ad mech is for me the best ally for knights maybe with guard. So competitive wise ad mech will not top solo.
And I strongly believe this now cause I hoped maybe a force of 2*19 priests Dragoons ec could do it but they wont!
Superheavy Castelan +helverins and stygies /guard should be the most wise play for me. If you run low priest count you will have issues producing mortals but ...
All other options will severely change the point/ result ratio.
I will really gonna try make a Cawl star work with some melee knight but we again have to sacrifice a lot to take robots and won't have effective screen once more!
I pressure we should be happy ad mech is at least shown in etc breakdown other armies didn't make it.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Problem is the Omniscient Mask only works on Skitarii, Electropriests are Cult Mechanicus, I would probably only use it if I was infiltrating Dragoons nearby. I'd stuff an Enginseer in anyway though just to repair the Drill, I feel like it could do a lot of work by itself.
Dang, overlooked that. Then I'll go balls to the wall and put in a tech priest dominus warlord with the hermitcon warlord trait.
So now that the Knight codex is out for a few weeks what are your guys experience.
What is our most strongest soup option? AdMech + Guard + Blood Angels or AdMech + Knight(s) + Guard / BA?
lash92 wrote: So now that the Knight codex is out for a few weeks what are your guys experience.
What is our most strongest soup option? AdMech + Guard + Blood Angels or AdMech + Knight(s) + Guard / BA?
I've been playing around with various options and in someways its the harder choice than which nights to take
AM: Basic Battalion - solid choice offerssome early objective control and some screening and doesnt consume CP
AM: Enhanced battalion strap on 3 HWT same as above really but helps with the hoard clearence more pts but worth it can be taken with above
BA: I wanted BA to work and certainly in the mirror its ok but the problem is there just isnt enough CP to keep both factions optimal and so you strap on a guard battalion and go for maximum cp cycleing and before you know it you dont have a knight warlord and your down to 1200pts of knights. If anything it makes fighting hordes harder.
Admech - I think theres a role for it in a team tournament when your AM detatchment is going to your team mate-adding sone repair is ok and a deep strikeing dragoon squad is nice and distracting while your knights get into position. However its costly and a min speced battalion is just worse than the AM option.
IQ - more of a buffing option not going to generate you the CP but doesn't consume it as a cheap tertiary it has something to offer -the psychic power denying overwatch can potentially help that warden/gallant not get shot to bits when chargeing an anti tank model. Also the Ld 10 inquisitors allow canis rex and a freeblade to burden much less often. Worst case they provide some anti psyker and some smite.
Myself im looking at the enhanced AM+IQ I think
Also had strong results from the double AM option
lash92 wrote: So now that the Knight codex is out for a few weeks what are your guys experience.
What is our most strongest soup option? AdMech + Guard + Blood Angels or AdMech + Knight(s) + Guard / BA?
Been stripping my Secutarii and Cawl and repainting them blue (and not ugly) like the rest of my army. So I don't have a table-top ready army at the moment.
Here's my reference model, alongside some other models I use for a height comparison:
My money is still on BA Battalion (Slamguinius + Mephiston + Scouts) + Guard Battalion (CP Battery + Basilisks) + Mars Battalion (Cawlstar).
lash92 wrote: So now that the Knight codex is out for a few weeks what are your guys experience. What is our most strongest soup option? AdMech + Guard + Blood Angels or AdMech + Knight(s) + Guard / BA?
I ran RAVEN + BLANGELS + MORDIA. I had a castellan, warden, and gallant. I had 2 smash captains. I tabled two opponents, but lost a close game against a top tier aloitocBattalion, VectBattalion, 3x hemlock list. The warden is the stinker in the list but I don't have the points for something better. He kept being a bum that barely did any damage. The gallant is beast most and should be suicide charged into the enemy as soon as you can. The smash captains were heroes and did smash captain things. The castellan kills two units a turn and threatens everything in the game (except tzaangor and cultist megablobs, but you have gallants for that). I really want to drop the smash captains to take more knights, but they are just huge for winning games. The scouts that come with them are also excellent if you can tuck them somewhere where they can't get shot.
The other knight player who got 2nd (I got 4th) ran: TARANIS - castellan, crusader, gallant CADIA - min battalion ASSASINS - culexus, callidus, eversor
THis list is much more reliant on making that taranis get back up trick and doesn't have the captains as an answer to things. But the culexus helps against psychic. I would still prefer my list for taking on the top tier eldar stuff since the eldar will always be able to maneuver around the culexus and the crusader + castellan is only marginally more shooting, if at all, than a single RAVEN castellan with the strategem. And relying on the resurrect feels super chancy.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Wait, I thought he asked about admech soup. Not 0 admech
Thats right ;-) I like Suzuteo´s soup. It´s a good mix of strong shooting, CQC and has some psychic defense in the form of Mephiston.
Do you run full 6 Dakkabots or less Bots with some Crawlers?
lash92 wrote: So now that the Knight codex is out for a few weeks what are your guys experience.
What is our most strongest soup option? AdMech + Guard + Blood Angels or AdMech + Knight(s) + Guard / BA?
I ran RAVEN + BLANGELS + MORDIA. I had a castellan, warden, and gallant. I had 2 smash captains. I tabled two opponents, but lost a close game against a top tier aloitocBattalion, VectBattalion, 3x hemlock list. The warden is the stinker in the list but I don't have the points for something better. He kept being a bum that barely did any damage. The gallant is beast most and should be suicide charged into the enemy as soon as you can. The smash captains were heroes and did smash captain things. The castellan kills two units a turn and threatens everything in the game (except tzaangor and cultist megablobs, but you have gallants for that). I really want to drop the smash captains to take more knights, but they are just huge for winning games. The scouts that come with them are also excellent if you can tuck them somewhere where they can't get shot.
The other knight player who got 2nd (I got 4th) ran:
TARANIS - castellan, crusader, gallant
CADIA - min battalion
ASSASINS - culexus, callidus, eversor
THis list is much more reliant on making that taranis get back up trick and doesn't have the captains as an answer to things. But the culexus helps against psychic. I would still prefer my list for taking on the top tier eldar stuff since the eldar will always be able to maneuver around the culexus and the crusader + castellan is only marginally more shooting, if at all, than a single RAVEN castellan with the strategem. And relying on the resurrect feels super chancy.
What happened to the tri Gallant list? Did you get a chance to test it or realise a big flaw?
lash92 wrote: So now that the Knight codex is out for a few weeks what are your guys experience.
What is our most strongest soup option? AdMech + Guard + Blood Angels or AdMech + Knight(s) + Guard / BA?
Been stripping my Secutarii and Cawl and repainting them blue (and not ugly) like the rest of my army. So I don't have a table-top ready army at the moment.
Here's my reference model, alongside some other models I use for a height comparison:
My money is still on BA Battalion (Slamguinius + Mephiston + Scouts) + Guard Battalion (CP Battery + Basilisks) + Mars Battalion (Cawlstar).
Suzuteo I really like that cool blue colour. Very easy on the eye. Good job dude
1) Castellan and Kastelans are a strong gun line, but you don't have anything to de-risk this list. Any short deployment against an assault army is pretty much an auto-lose. Scouts would go a very long way in buying your gunline the time it needs to do its job.
2) Nothing in this list fights, deep strikes, or has decent mobility. You have very little ability to counter-charge, threaten the enemy backline, or play the board.
3) Lots of inefficient choices. Cawl is really pricey to buff 4 Kastelans and 1 Crawler; a lone Crawler is a lot less durable than a pair; a Castellan, 2 Basilisks, and a Neutron Crawler seems like anti-tank overkill; only one Commander means you can't detach the Guardsmen to MMM and grab objectives.
Alternatively, you can double down on Crawlers and take an Icarus and a Neutron over 4 Dragoons. Just accept that you will have really bad matchups on the short deployment.
The trouble with a gallant list is that I bought a castellan. So ... I just had to run it. A RAVEN castellan with his strategem is comparable in power to a 550 pack of Cawl backed robots. Also, that first gallant is amazing. If I ran admech again I would for sure bring 1 gallant in an aux detachment and give him the 2" charge WLT. A landstrider gallant has a solid 24" first turn charge threat range. But three gallants ... like ... it is not hard to get that first gallant in there. But I was really feeling the weakness from my one gallant against the eldar list. I killed every eldar model on the ground by turn 2. The rest were infantry on ruins and flyers. What does a 3 gallant list do there? Wave at the flyers? And the flyers have an awesome profile for shooting gallants too. Now gallants and stygies icarus crawlers, okay, yeah, that starts to make sense. There was a 2 gallant list there and I ended up tabling it. The other knight list had only 1 gallant. I don't think they scale as well as I hoped against top table lists. I would also add that staff priests and dragoons will struggle for the same reasons against the super hard eldar lists.
If I ran my admech again, which I am leary of doing because castellans exist (a raven castellan can kill 3-4 robots a turn). Hmm ... maybe I need to buy a box of helverins now that i think about it. I played a knight list and my smash captains and castellan were enough to drop a knight a turn. My gallant was devastating when he made his charge, but he didn't help against hard opponents. He was kind of a Win-More play. Perhaps I need to run this instead to help me out against the truly hard lists. Against another knight list I would trade smash captains into knights and let the castellan do his work. Against Eldar my castellan would be a big target, but the rest of my list would actually be good at shooting his stuff. Hmm ...
STYGIES - 2x engi (6+/6+ or necromechanic if you expect lots of shooting), skitarri troops, 3x1 icarus [the best lists have flyers, weak lists don't have models with FLY] BLANGELS - 2x smashcaptains, 3x5 scouts RAVEN - 1x castellan, 2x helverin [these guys are boss and have cheap access to rerolls]
Or maybe I just stick with the list I got. Going to be thinking it over for the week.
Wulfey wrote: The trouble with a gallant list is that I bought a castellan. So ... I just had to run it. Also, that first gallant is amazing. If I ran admech again I would for sure bring 1 gallant in an aux detachment and give him the 2" charge WLT. A landstrider gallant has a solid 24" first turn charge threat range. But three gallants ... like ... it is not hard to get that first gallant in there. But I was really feeling the weakness from my one gallant against the eldar list. I killed every eldar model on the ground by turn 2. The rest were infantry on ruins and flyers. What does a 3 gallant list do there? Wave at the flyers? And the flyers have an awesome profile for shooting gallants too. Now gallants and stygies icarus crawlers, okay, yeah, that starts to make sense.
Fair enough. It did sound fun on paper but not being able to hit your opponent is a bit too strong a drawback!
Wulfey wrote: The trouble with a gallant list is that I bought a castellan. So ... I just had to run it. A RAVEN castellan with his strategem is comparable in power to a 550 pack of Cawl backed robots. Also, that first gallant is amazing. If I ran admech again I would for sure bring 1 gallant in an aux detachment and give him the 2" charge WLT. A landstrider gallant has a solid 24" first turn charge threat range. But three gallants ... like ... it is not hard to get that first gallant in there. But I was really feeling the weakness from my one gallant against the eldar list. I killed every eldar model on the ground by turn 2. The rest were infantry on ruins and flyers. What does a 3 gallant list do there? Wave at the flyers? And the flyers have an awesome profile for shooting gallants too. Now gallants and stygies icarus crawlers, okay, yeah, that starts to make sense. There was a 2 gallant list there and I ended up tabling it. The other knight list had only 1 gallant. I don't think they scale as well as I hoped against top table lists. I would also add that staff priests and dragoons will struggle for the same reasons against the super hard eldar lists.
If I ran my admech again, which I am leary of doing because castellans exist (a raven castellan can kill 3-4 robots a turn). Hmm ... maybe I need to buy a box of helverins now that i think about it. I played a knight list and my smash captains and castellan were enough to drop a knight a turn. My gallant was devastating when he made his charge, but he didn't help against hard opponents. He was kind of a Win-More play. Perhaps I need to run this instead to help me out against the truly hard lists. Against another knight list I would trade smash captains into knights and let the castellan do his work. Against Eldar my castellan would be a big target, but the rest of my list would actually be good at shooting his stuff. Hmm ...
STYGIES - 2x engi (6+/6+ or necromechanic if you expect lots of shooting), skitarri troops, 3x1 icarus [the best lists have flyers, weak lists don't have models with FLY]
BLANGELS - 2x smashcaptains, 3x5 scouts
RAVEN - 1x castellan, 2x helverin [these guys are boss and have cheap access to rerolls]
Or maybe I just stick with the list I got. Going to be thinking it over for the week.
I think if you're running three Knights, my friends have been telling me that the best combination seems to be Raven Castellan/Crusader + Errant/Warden + naked Gallant (make sure this Gallant is NOT a character so it can screen your Slamguinius, Assassins, etc). You want to also bring a barebones Guard CP battery or maybe Scouts. One single naked Gallant is great, but two or three suck terribly against infantry and flier heavy lists. And yeah, you have to shoot the Eldar dead or use flyers to assault them.
I think it is a mistake not to run something just because something can kill it. I mean, Kastelans kill practically anything, including Castellans. Do people just give up? No. They run assault units to force us to deploy defensively and limit the options of Kastelans on turn one. We should do likewise to Castellans, which are much harder to hide and castle.
In my opinion though, the army to beat is Eldar Soup. Taking Mephiston instead of a second Slamguinius might be a good idea. Icarus Crawlers and Culexus might also be worthwhile.
Btw how do you guys deal with Tau? (Besides Cawl and Bots) Those stupid drones and their overwatch (especially this flamer battlesuit from FW) are killing me...
My nemesis match up...
lash92 wrote: Btw how do you guys deal with Tau? (Besides Cawl and Bots) Those stupid drones and their overwatch (especially this flamer battlesuit from FW) are killing me...
My nemesis match up...
Tau is honestly just an easier Eldar matchup at this point. Kastelans and Icarus Crawlers.
1) Castellan and Kastelans are a strong gun line, but you don't have anything to de-risk this list. Any short deployment against an assault army is pretty much an auto-lose. Scouts would go a very long way in buying your gunline the time it needs to do its job.
2) Nothing in this list fights, deep strikes, or has decent mobility. You have very little ability to counter-charge, threaten the enemy backline, or play the board.
3) Lots of inefficient choices. Cawl is really pricey to buff 4 Kastelans and 1 Crawler; a lone Crawler is a lot less durable than a pair; a Castellan, 2 Basilisks, and a Neutron Crawler seems like anti-tank overkill; only one Commander means you can't detach the Guardsmen to MMM and grab objectives.
Alternatively, you can double down on Crawlers and take an Icarus and a Neutron over 4 Dragoons. Just accept that you will have really bad matchups on the short deployment.
1. Very true, I am not really prepared for fighting hugely assault armies. I don't have much practice against those in general. Some matchups for me I think are going to just be not good.
2. I consider Cawl and the Castellan to be "sort of" fighters but still you have a point. I could pretty easily add in Elysians in the form of a commander and 2 special weapon plasma squads.
3. Fair point that the guardsmen don't have anyone to go run around with, I was thinking the modicum of psychic defense might be more valuable. I was thinking with a lone crawler it might hopefully attract firepower that I would rather not be aimed at the Castellan and Robots on turn 1.
I straight up do not have Dragoon models so that is unfortunately not an option for me and I do want to keep at least one of the basilisks. If I am understanding you correctly, your suggestion is going for 2 crawlers (or 3?)
Somehow its more of a struggle for me than those space elves... Maybe I'm just lacking the number of shots that a Cawlstar is able to put out.
Do you point the robots directly at the suits or at the Drones first?
ph34r wrote: 1. Very true, I am not really prepared for fighting hugely assault armies. I don't have much practice against those in general. Some matchups for me I think are going to just be not good.
2. I consider Cawl and the Castellan to be "sort of" fighters but still you have a point. I could pretty easily add in Elysians in the form of a commander and 2 special weapon plasma squads.
3. Fair point that the guardsmen don't have anyone to go run around with, I was thinking the modicum of psychic defense might be more valuable. I was thinking with a lone crawler it might hopefully attract firepower that I would rather not be aimed at the Castellan and Robots on turn 1.
I straight up do not have Dragoon models so that is unfortunately not an option for me and I do want to keep at least one of the basilisks. If I am understanding you correctly, your suggestion is going for 2 crawlers (or 3?)
Another problem is that those seeker missiles can KO your Commander, so splitting the CP recyclers up is helpful.
Yikes... hm... I am worried you're trying to do too much here then. Do you have Electro-Priests? Maybe switch to a Stygies heavy build for your AdMech?
lash92 wrote: Somehow its more of a struggle for me than those space elves... Maybe I'm just lacking the number of shots that a Cawlstar is able to put out.
Do you point the robots directly at the suits or at the Drones first?
Your best bet is to have your infantry remove the Drones from the Battlesuits before shooting them.
Quick question for those of you who have run dragoons and Armigers, especially anyone who has experience running dragoons as something other than stygies.
Do you feel like Armigers do a decent job of filling in the role dragoons would typically do in an average admech list? I just cannot afford to get dragoons right now but need some melee admech punch for the next step up I'm going in the league. Since I already own warglaives I figured they could fill the roll in a pinch. Other than that all I really own with melee ability is a squad of infiltrators so my options are kind of limited. I know they're not as good, I just need them to do a halfway decent job. I'm running Metallica as that is how I'm painted for reference, running stygies or Mars is not an option as I'm locked into faction choices through the league.
The Warglaives will be Raven if I add them in at this 1000pt stage as I plan on adding a Castellan at higher point totals. I was considering something like this going into 1000pts
Random note, vanguard do extremely well at low points with plasma by the way. At 500pts I took as many as I could with plasma and a Dominus with phosphoenix/ordered efficiency and tore up the first stage. They just murder everything at that level as Metallica since they're more mobile than people expect. Dominus is also suprisingly good at that level since he just refuses to die. I plan on dialing the vanguard back as I go up in points and reverting them to barebones squads to grab objectives, but for now they're doing well. This will probably be the last stage they are run with plasma at all, as the knights and onagers will be able to pick up the slack later on.
If you want something cheap and punchy, kitbash a Slamguinius or two. Maybe a Mephiston? My Slamguinius cost $8:
(He's my model for the Dakka Dakka monthly painting contest.)
Bought a botched Prosecutor, stripped it, added Blood Angels shield, head, shoulders. Also made the Prosecutor hammer larger with pieces of a Skitarii Arc Maul. Alternatively, just buy any Blood Angels model and strap on a hammer and a jet pack.
Those that use dragoons. I’m shortly going to have 4-5. How do they fare against knights? If I infiltrate a squad of 4 and use the +2 Strat can they chip enough of a dent or are they best choosing other targets?
I wondered if the 3+ save of the knight and lack of AP would mean they wouldn’t do too well
Ideasweasel wrote: Those that use dragoons. I’m shortly going to have 4-5. How do they fare against knights? If I infiltrate a squad of 4 and use the +2 Strat can they chip enough of a dent or are they best choosing other targets?
I wondered if the 3+ save of the knight and lack of AP would mean they wouldn’t do too well
Thoughts?
They'll still virtually murder one. Squad of 4 on average deals about 22 wounds I think and a 4+ save isnt enough to save them with that many attacks that wound on a 4, and if you have the +1 str cancticle active you can wound it on a 3. Add in any re-rolls you have and it's in for a world of hurt. A knight on it's last health band against a stygies army means it's pretty much a melee only knight at that point without spending CP.
it's also worth noting that 4 dragoons can surround a knight and prevent it from falling back, as the knight can only move over infantry and swarms when falling back.
Ideasweasel wrote: Those that use dragoons. I’m shortly going to have 4-5. How do they fare against knights? If I infiltrate a squad of 4 and use the +2 Strat can they chip enough of a dent or are they best choosing other targets?
I wondered if the 3+ save of the knight and lack of AP would mean they wouldn’t do too well
Ideasweasel wrote: Those that use dragoons. I’m shortly going to have 4-5. How do they fare against knights? If I infiltrate a squad of 4 and use the +2 Strat can they chip enough of a dent or are they best choosing other targets?
I wondered if the 3+ save of the knight and lack of AP would mean they wouldn’t do too well
Thoughts?
My math says 4 Dragoons, on average, deal 12.22 wounds to a Knight with the +1S bonus and CDI stratagem. For 272 points, that is an amazing amount of damage. For comparison, two Neutron Crawlers with Cawl reroll only deal 6.91 wounds.
Ideasweasel wrote: Those that use dragoons. I’m shortly going to have 4-5. How do they fare against knights? If I infiltrate a squad of 4 and use the +2 Strat can they chip enough of a dent or are they best choosing other targets?
I wondered if the 3+ save of the knight and lack of AP would mean they wouldn’t do too well
Thoughts?
My math says 4 Dragoons, on average, deal 12.22 wounds to a Knight with the +1S bonus and CDI stratagem. For 272 points, that is an amazing amount of damage. For comparison, two Neutron Crawlers with Cawl reroll only deal 6.91 wounds.
It’s looking pretty good. I’m currently trying to figure out which is better, drop a 20 man electro staff priest bomb on the knight or 4 dragoons? Mathhammer seems to think the priests cause 20 wounds inc mortals!(assuming I lost 4 to overwatch)
That seems a little high to me. Starting to wonder if I’ve calculated that correctly.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So is the Icarus still the beat choice overall for Dunecrawlers or nah?
Yes. Everyone and their mom flies because it's hugely beneficial. If you want anti-vehicle/tank, there are much better high strength fighting options available, especially ones that fly (ironic).
Ideasweasel wrote: It’s looking pretty good. I’m currently trying to figure out which is better, drop a 20 man electro staff priest bomb on the knight or 4 dragoons? Mathhammer seems to think the priests cause 20 wounds inc mortals!(assuming I lost 4 to overwatch)
That seems a little high to me. Starting to wonder if I’ve calculated that correctly.
Made a typo in my math. Dragoons actually deal 13.33 damage against Knights, with or without Sanctuary.
17 Fulgurites is the equivalent of 4 Dragoons. With Zealous Congregation letting them fight twice, they deal 28 damage to a Castellan on average; 25.5 damage to a Knight with rotated Sanctuary. But they are MUCH squishier. If you don't go first to kill a unit, they are like Guardsmen in terms of their durability. Drills actually solve this problem, since they can hide inside and pop out when ready to punch.
I v tested some combinations and I got to say there was fair success . I broke down somearts of the lists to test individually. And came up with some personal data. I repeat personal.
1) The drill with 10-12 staff priests worked so nice. I used it since I got only 10 priests with one enginseer inside that also worked when I got Dragoons or knight advancing.
I disembarged enginseer to heal my Dragoons that they as always performed extremely good and then used my priest to mop up warlord and chars. The drill got a punch and it's good to have the option to infiltrate it. Even if I'm a fan of 19 priest unit the drill is important. Results most valuable to lowest.
A) drill makes the priests more durable!!!
B) gives a movement 8" to infantry
C) can deep strike or infiltrate
D) can shoot
C)can lower unit count for playing first.
So I take back my first impression about the drill it's a weapon that goes really nice with priests . Not perfect but still valid. Priests for me with. A reroll canticle in fight phase just killed everything. One game I even spend 3 CP and cleared the table with them before enemy reinf. It's a strong combination.
2) Castelan is a Beast. But.
After some testing iv decided this.
Only if I get detachment restrictions I would use Armiger's. Sure their nice but there are decisions to be made . And since we play ad mech I consider other options more valid than paying 170ish points for them.
Still in a restricted game I'd fill a superheavy detachment not in more easy tour rules etc. So aux for lists suerheavy onlay if restricted to limited detachments or without add mech.
Yes I like helverins for antiair cause I agree most too lists got air units and I like my Icarus onagers - helverins . For me doing almost same role! Glaives I m still debating. But I don't seem to need more with Castelan.
3) I want to use my ad mech so I have fixed a battalion I basically use and add it to various lists. 850-1000 points battalion stygies drill Dragoons priests etc! And after watching some tour games etc I v concluded that two icarus would fit nice my mobile stygies battalion!
4) Guard. What can I say who cares about recycling CP gallants etc when there is guard. Brigade mortars just ad up to a Castelan or smashcaptains superb. The list with captaisn Castelan and guard brigade got be the bad ass around . But it's big hordish team preffered tactical list not what I like to play since if it comes to that I prefer to play my Abba Ahriman horde list.
Still I gotta admit a cheap brigade is not to be ignored especially if you got captwins and q Castelan to spend CP upon.
So yes as I said confused !! I like some options I see the current meta I like may lists but I need to get two icarus inside my list keeping my mobilitay get some anti air / hordish options and remain in my concept knight guard stygies concept for competitive play. For may current models that is.
I'm not sure if I invest in warglaives maybe some melee knights and Cawl star but I m just so against a stationary army like robots and my main issue starting to play chaos!
So inside my mobility plan i consider the list of Castelan with guard brigade and smash captains extremely well though off.
And would like to somewhat try something like it but not so slow moving slow playing hordish thing.
A)Aux Castelan seems solid now
B)Guard battalion if not more a logical take if not for cp cycling but for antihorde and screen easily.
C)Sure Shash could be good but I prefer ad mech in this role and a bit more poiints invest in my assault that two bikes!
What you like more how you would replace Castelan with Cawl star or if you prefer captains that drills and Dragoons it's you to you but that what I taking this Saturday in a local.
The meta is confusing right now. The lists to beat seem to be, in order of my opinion of their threat:
Drukhari Soup: DE + Craftworld psykers in support
Ynnari: Psykers, Shining Spears, Dark Reapers + DE vehicles
Imperium Soup: BA + Guard CP Battery w/ Hellhounds/Bullgryns/Basilisks + Castellan
1K Sons: 24" Smite spammm
Knights: Castellan, Questoris of choice, naked Gallant + Guard CP Battery + AdMech Battalion
Custodes Soup: Custodes Bikes + BA + Guard CP Battery
Death Guard: Balanced list built around Mortarion with some Nurgle Daemons
Nurgle Daemons: Daemon Prince spam and DG support
BA Deathball: Slamguinius, Lemartes, Sanguinor, Mephiston + Scouts + Sanguinary Guard, Death Company
Genestealers: Genestealers backed by Tyranids
Orks: Green Tide backed by Kannons
Basically, it's either flyers, assault armies, or both. Only exception seems to be 1K Sons, which is just the old Smite spam list on steroids. Really, anything that bypasses -1 to hit is strong right now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyhow, I won't be participating in BAO, but here's an interesting idea:
Spoiler:
Blood Angels Battalion Detachment - 439
HQ - 274 1x Captain w/ Jump Pack - Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, Warlord Trait: Artisan of War (or Soulwarden), Relic: Angel's Wing, Death Visions of Sanguinius
1x Mephiston - Powers: Quickening, Shield of Sanguinius, Wings of Sanguinius
Heavy Support - 660 6x Kastelan Robot (Mars) - 18x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Total: 2000 points 18 CP (-2)
I've been attempting to reconcile the whole Stygies vs. Mars question for awhile now, but I think that we're well past the point where the question is meaningful because of how pure shooting is pretty much out these days. We also have to contend with a ridiculous high-low mix of threats. Castellans and Knights at the high end, Eldar and Guard at the low end. This list attempts to balance shooting and fighting elements. For the shooting, a Cawlstar, which can still delete units off the map like nothing else. For the fighting, Slamguinius and Mephiston backed by choppy Scouts (don't underestimate how dangerous Chainswords are with Red Thirst) and a Drill filled with Fulgurites. The AdMech Battalion is mixed, meaning we lose the dogmas, but we gain flexibility in stratagem usage; losing the extra Canticle is never a big deal, and the Drill is never outside of 12" anyway. Wrath of Mars, Clandestine Infiltration, and Steel Logic are all really good stratagems and well worth the trade-off.
Really nice post. I still don't like taking more than 4 kastelans though. Basically losing 660 pts if anything makes it there is rough. And is the guard battery REALLY necesary? I'd take assassins probably.
I might continue expanding and try out the blood angels later down the line if I can find a BA successor that jives with the Mechanicus particularly well in background.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Really nice post. I still don't like taking more than 4 kastelans though. Basically losing 660 pts if anything makes it there is rough. And is the guard battery REALLY necesary? I'd take assassins probably.
I think so. The list is very CP hungry. And you're probably right. 6x Kastelan might be too tempting a target for melee or anti-tank. Thing is though, 220 points is awkward. Maybe cut one and add a Techmarine and Heavy Mortar Squad in? That or give two of your infantry Lascannons. Hm...
Which ones? Eversor and Culexus tend to be the best. But with the high-low mix of threats, I worry about taking something like triple Eversor or Culexus and ending up with dead points. Also, losing 5 CP is a real heavy blow...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ph34r wrote: I might continue expanding and try out the blood angels later down the line if I can find a BA successor that jives with the Mechanicus particularly well in background.
I made my own Successors. I call them the Angels Ferrugine (colors are rust and silver). Instead of Sanguinary Priests, they rely on Techmarines to control the effects of the Black Rage through technology and psycho-genetic manipulation. The Blood Angels considers them apostates and shun them, but they are still loyalists.
I agree that 6 Robots is a high investment point wise and I'm just not a fan of the associated playstyle. But if you could 2 wouldn't it be a waste two have Cawl for just 4 bots?
If you should decide to cut 2 bots maybe invest the points in a bare bones Captain with Veritas Vitae and a Devastator Squad with HB and ML, so you can dish nearly guaranteed 2D3 MW per turn and have some CP regen.
Just realized making the list it's not valid. You can't take Cawl if not Mars !!!!! That's why I have not made this list before. It's sad but true . Cawl must be in Mars detachment and tbh I don't seem to get a proper list with knight and Robots it's also an extreme dakka invest. As I was making it with a Castelan that is . I LL try to make something and post it . Gonna test it tonight. Priests and drill is amuzt for me
Ordana wrote: You can mix Forges in a detachment, you just lose the Dogma benefit.
Cawl does not need a pure Mars detachment.
Yeah you could have a mixed stygies/Mars detachment, but the only benefit would be the strategems. Your stygies would lose their -1 to being hit for example but could still infiltrate
To be fair besides the -1 from Stygies the rest of the dogmas are not as good as the stratagems. A mixed detachment gives you access to:
- Cawl + WrathofMars Bots
- Stygies infiltrate
- Graias deny stratagem.
Timing questions about the Graia Steel Mind, iron Logic (AKA Abhor the Witch) stratagem:
1) Do you Deny or Abhor first?
2) Can you Deny then Abhor if the Deny fails?
And if you really, really want to, you can resurrect Destroyers with Agripinaa, improve plasma with Ryza, or deep strike with Lucius.
It's actually surprisingly how AdMech has really good stratagems, just awful dogmas.
Suzuteo wrote: Timing questions about the Graia Steel Mind, iron Logic (AKA Abhor the Witch) stratagem:
1) Do you Deny or Abhor first?
2) Can you Deny then Abhor if the Deny fails?
And if you really, really want to, you can resurrect Destroyers with Agripinaa, improve plasma with Ryza, or deep strike with Lucius.
It's actually surprisingly how AdMech has really good stratagems, just awful dogmas.
I actually really like the Graia one for Skitarii but that's about it. Otherwise I think the 5+ Overwatch and Metalica super weak. At least Ryza is more usable than those...
Suzuteo wrote: Timing questions about the Graia Steel Mind, iron Logic (AKA Abhor the Witch) stratagem:
1) Do you Deny or Abhor first?
2) Can you Deny then Abhor if the Deny fails?
And if you really, really want to, you can resurrect Destroyers with Agripinaa, improve plasma with Ryza, or deep strike with Lucius.
It's actually surprisingly how AdMech has really good stratagems, just awful dogmas.
You use the strategm after the psychic power is successfully manifested to negate it’s effects. So you can still attempt to deny before that.
220 points is 3 dragoons and a shade off 3 autocannon ironstriders. It’s 2 x 10 hoplites, it’s 2x eradication beamer onagers! There are so many things you can do with 220 points.
Also, this is an opinion, but; If you’re mixing forgeworlds just to get access to strategms to the extent you have 3 or 4 or more different ones, then you really have fallen deeply to the dark side of list building
I mean if you’re re-enacting the battle of 5 armies in 40k, fair enough, but otherwise the gaming of the system is so very real lol. If that sort of thing becomes popular in tournaments i wouldnt be surprised to see a 2 or 3 <faction> limit in matched play the same as we now have erstrictions on the imperium, chaos and aeldari keywords within detachments. Because it’s just an absurd situation to realistically occur under 2k points.
To be fair Admech is one of the few armies where you would be actually tempted to do it. Most armies have traits that aren't completely trash or don't even affect 90% of the codex (yay Metallica) so you're not tempted to go that way. IG for example would be very hesitant to mix regiments like that.
It really is mind boggling how bad the forgeworlds traits are. In my league for example, everyone assumes Metallica's trait is awesome because I'm tearing up the low levels with vanguard. All they see is vanguard sprinting around corners and nuking things with plasma calivers. I've tried to explain to them countless times that vanguard are one of maybe 3 units that can even benefit from our trait, but no one believes me. I will admit our warlord trait is very useful but when whole armies get that ability it feels kind of underwhelming to only have it in a 6" aura around one model.
If we're going to wish list, Metallica really should have been "treat all weapons a model is carrying as assault weapons if it advances and ignore the penalty to accuracy for advancing". Basically just copy the Raven trait word for word. It feels like half the weapons in the codex are heavy, and many of the non heavy weapons are secondary weapons to supplement a main heavy weapon. It just eats at me something fierce to see a trait that is so obviously useless if you actually played the army not be caught by the people who wrote the book. It's really insulting when other armies get that exact trait like necrons or knights yet we get stuck with a pitiful amount of weapons it interacts with.
Octovol wrote: You use the strategm after the psychic power is successfully manifested to negate it’s effects. So you can still attempt to deny before that.
220 points is 3 dragoons and a shade off 3 autocannon ironstriders. It’s 2 x 10 hoplites, it’s 2x eradication beamer onagers! There are so many things you can do with 220 points.
Also, this is an opinion, but; If you’re mixing forgeworlds just to get access to strategms to the extent you have 3 or 4 or more different ones, then you really have fallen deeply to the dark side of list building
I mean if you’re re-enacting the battle of 5 armies in 40k, fair enough, but otherwise the gaming of the system is so very real lol. If that sort of thing becomes popular in tournaments i wouldnt be surprised to see a 2 or 3 <faction> limit in matched play the same as we now have erstrictions on the imperium, chaos and aeldari keywords within detachments. Because it’s just an absurd situation to realistically occur under 2k points.
But Deny also occurs immediately after manifesting! Anyhow, I am thinking I can Deny first, then Abhor if the Deny fails. The timing seems simultaneous, so player with initiative (you) gets to decide the order.
The Dragoons are tempting, but if I only have 4 Mars Robots, then Cawl isn't worthwhile any more. And none of those shooting options are as versatile as Robots. Robots literally kill anything and everything. (More dakka, less problems.)
Octovol wrote: You use the strategm after the psychic power is successfully manifested to negate it’s effects. So you can still attempt to deny before that.
220 points is 3 dragoons and a shade off 3 autocannon ironstriders. It’s 2 x 10 hoplites, it’s 2x eradication beamer onagers! There are so many things you can do with 220 points.
Also, this is an opinion, but; If you’re mixing forgeworlds just to get access to strategms to the extent you have 3 or 4 or more different ones, then you really have fallen deeply to the dark side of list building
I mean if you’re re-enacting the battle of 5 armies in 40k, fair enough, but otherwise the gaming of the system is so very real lol. If that sort of thing becomes popular in tournaments i wouldnt be surprised to see a 2 or 3 <faction> limit in matched play the same as we now have erstrictions on the imperium, chaos and aeldari keywords within detachments. Because it’s just an absurd situation to realistically occur under 2k points.
But Deny also occurs immediately after manifesting! Anyhow, I am thinking I can Deny first, then Abhor if the Deny fails. The timing seems simultaneous, so player with initiative (you) gets to decide the order.
The Dragoons are tempting, but if I only have 4 Mars Robots, then Cawl isn't worthwhile any more. And none of those shooting options are as versatile as Robots. Robots literally kill anything and everything. (More dakka, less problems.)
I see what you mean. I guess you get to pick what order you do them in if they can both be used at the same time.
I know I know, but the novelty of rolling 100 dice and just removing enemy models wears off and it actually feels more of a burden now for me: “Oh it’s robots what am i removing this time” My opponents have opted to take a mathhammer approach for speed and as soon as i roll to hit they decide if its enough to kill the unit without rolling any saves and just remove the unit instead. Its not fun for anyone.
4 robots is still plenty enough threat, but if tournament winning is all you’re after then sure, 6 gives you more effective dice. It is also why i dont use cawl any more, or tpd, they’re too many points for a model that just sits there buffing once you lessen the number of models theyre buffing.
But i appreciate my “meta” if you can even call it that, allows for a lot more flavour than your average tournament. 220 points isnt loads but its enough that it gives you options and in most of my games options is what i need to complete objectives and prevent someone hiding a unit out of los to prevent a tabling. Which i guess is why you guys takethe mortarteams. I’m really hoping we get the thanatar from 30k for that, i’d so much rather solve the problem without relying on dull army men.
Ive actually used beamer onagers to harass up close, hovering around its melta range and making sure it’s difficult for them to be charged, they're a good screen, theyre still pretty long range, good ap and damage in both modes, theyre tough to kill, cheap and they take up a lot of space if you position them skillfully and you’re looking to make it difficult for flying units jumping over stuff to get to your back line.
Sure. If you're playing a fluffy list, bringing 6 Robots is a dick move. But against Castellans and Daemon Princes and Primarchs, I can only laugh maniacally as they bury their models in dice.
Rule of 3 smothered Beam Crawler spam in its crib. =\
Suzuteo wrote: The meta is confusing right now. The lists to beat seem to be, in order of my opinion of their threat:
Drukhari Soup: DE + Craftworld psykers in support
Ynnari: Psykers, Shining Spears, Dark Reapers + DE vehicles
Imperium Soup: BA + Guard CP Battery w/ Hellhounds/Bullgryns/Basilisks + Castellan
1K Sons: 24" Smite spammm
Knights: Castellan, Questoris of choice, naked Gallant + Guard CP Battery + AdMech Battalion
Custodes Soup: Custodes Bikes + BA + Guard CP Battery
Death Guard: Balanced list built around Mortarion with some Nurgle Daemons
Nurgle Daemons: Daemon Prince spam and DG support
BA Deathball: Slamguinius, Lemartes, Sanguinor, Mephiston + Scouts + Sanguinary Guard, Death Company
Genestealers: Genestealers backed by Tyranids
Orks: Green Tide backed by Kannons
Basically, it's either flyers, assault armies, or both. Only exception seems to be 1K Sons, which is just the old Smite spam list on steroids. Really, anything that bypasses -1 to hit is strong right now.
So weird to see that apparently no one at your place plays that abomination of a tau list that kicks ass left right and center over here. longstrike, 3 ion heads, riptide, that stupid FW flyer, some kroot, ghostkheel, droneport with disco light marksmen...good god that one is brutal.
I honestly dont understand how the castellan is actually good. It has so few shots on its main guns that it seems like a massive waste of points, I remember people poo poo ing it when it leaked. I must be missing something.
I think it's a massive over-commitment, especially for AdMech, but basically, Imperium Soup armies use heavily specialized detachments to stay competitive. They used to bring one heavy anti-tank option, typically a Shadowsword, and ton of anti-horde/flying.
A popular example was:
BA Battalion (2x Smash Captain or Mephiston/Lemartes, Scouts, and DC or SG)
Guard Brigade (Mortars, Scout Sentinels, Shadowsword)
Or:
BA Battalion (2x Smash Captain and Scouts)
Guard Battalion (Mortars, Shadowsword)
AdMech Battalion (Icarus Crawlers)
Now, they run something like:
BA Battalion (2x Smash Captain and Scouts)
Guard Battalion (Mortars, Hellhounds/Basilisks)
SH Auxiliary (Castellan)
Suzuteo wrote: The meta is confusing right now. The lists to beat seem to be, in order of my opinion of their threat:
Drukhari Soup: DE + Craftworld psykers in support
Ynnari: Psykers, Shining Spears, Dark Reapers + DE vehicles
Imperium Soup: BA + Guard CP Battery w/ Hellhounds/Bullgryns/Basilisks + Castellan
1K Sons: 24" Smite spammm
Knights: Castellan, Questoris of choice, naked Gallant + Guard CP Battery + AdMech Battalion
Custodes Soup: Custodes Bikes + BA + Guard CP Battery
Death Guard: Balanced list built around Mortarion with some Nurgle Daemons
Nurgle Daemons: Daemon Prince spam and DG support
BA Deathball: Slamguinius, Lemartes, Sanguinor, Mephiston + Scouts + Sanguinary Guard, Death Company
Genestealers: Genestealers backed by Tyranids
Orks: Green Tide backed by Kannons
Basically, it's either flyers, assault armies, or both. Only exception seems to be 1K Sons, which is just the old Smite spam list on steroids. Really, anything that bypasses -1 to hit is strong right now.
So weird to see that apparently no one at your place plays that abomination of a tau list that kicks ass left right and center over here. longstrike, 3 ion heads, riptide, that stupid FW flyer, some kroot, ghostkheel, droneport with disco light marksmen...good god that one is brutal.
This isn't my local store. It's from looking through top 16 lists. Though technically, I could consider Game Kastle MV to be a local store, and they are hosting BAO this weekend. I actually dropped by Warhammer Open Play at Game Kastle MV this week, just to look around. Sort of dead compared to the last time I went to that side of town. But the facilities are nice. Sort of thinking about playing there more often. I think Wulfey plays there once and awhile? Anyone else?
On a side note, if someone really desperately needs to borrow Dragoons or Blood Angels for BAO, I can probably drop by and lend you mine.
I have yet to see a scary Tau list. I mean, even pure AdMech is a stronger shooting army than they are; I think we're actually borderline tier 1, especially when supported by BA and paired with the Drill or a lone Gallant/Crusader/Castelan. Do you have the specifics of that one?
I have yet to see a scary Tau list. I mean, even pure AdMech is a stronger shooting army than they are; I think we're actually borderline tier 1, especially when supported by BA and paired with the Drill or a lone Gallant/Crusader/Castelan. Do you have the specifics of that one?
There you go
Spoiler:
+++ Tau (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [107 PL, 2000pts] +++
Suzuteo wrote: The meta is confusing right now. The lists to beat seem to be, in order of my opinion of their threat:
Drukhari Soup: DE + Craftworld psykers in support
Ynnari: Psykers, Shining Spears, Dark Reapers + DE vehicles
Imperium Soup: BA + Guard CP Battery w/ Hellhounds/Bullgryns/Basilisks + Castellan
1K Sons: 24" Smite spammm
Knights: Castellan, Questoris of choice, naked Gallant + Guard CP Battery + AdMech Battalion
Custodes Soup: Custodes Bikes + BA + Guard CP Battery
Death Guard: Balanced list built around Mortarion with some Nurgle Daemons
Nurgle Daemons: Daemon Prince spam and DG support
BA Deathball: Slamguinius, Lemartes, Sanguinor, Mephiston + Scouts + Sanguinary Guard, Death Company
Genestealers: Genestealers backed by Tyranids
Orks: Green Tide backed by Kannons
Basically, it's either flyers, assault armies, or both. Only exception seems to be 1K Sons, which is just the old Smite spam list on steroids. Really, anything that bypasses -1 to hit is strong right now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyhow, I won't be participating in BAO, but here's an interesting idea:
Spoiler:
Blood Angels Battalion Detachment - 439
HQ - 274 1x Captain w/ Jump Pack - Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, Warlord Trait: Artisan of War (or Soulwarden), Relic: Angel's Wing, Death Visions of Sanguinius
1x Mephiston - Powers: Quickening, Shield of Sanguinius, Wings of Sanguinius
Heavy Support - 660 6x Kastelan Robot (Mars) - 18x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Total: 2000 points 18 CP (-2)
I've been attempting to reconcile the whole Stygies vs. Mars question for awhile now, but I think that we're well past the point where the question is meaningful because of how pure shooting is pretty much out these days. We also have to contend with a ridiculous high-low mix of threats. Castellans and Knights at the high end, Eldar and Guard at the low end. This list attempts to balance shooting and fighting elements. For the shooting, a Cawlstar, which can still delete units off the map like nothing else. For the fighting, Slamguinius and Mephiston backed by choppy Scouts (don't underestimate how dangerous Chainswords are with Red Thirst) and a Drill filled with Fulgurites. The AdMech Battalion is mixed, meaning we lose the dogmas, but we gain flexibility in stratagem usage; losing the extra Canticle is never a big deal, and the Drill is never outside of 12" anyway. Wrath of Mars, Clandestine Infiltration, and Steel Logic are all really good stratagems and well worth the trade-off.
This is the correct read of the meta. I regard MARS admech as dead. I ran some mathhammer on my castellan. With the strategem and assuming the admech player has pshroudpsalm and aegis protocols, the castellan will kill on average 4 robots a turn (3 if he can't get in melta range, which is still gg). Without aegis it is even worse. And assuming the admech player goes first, if the castellan player plays the 3++ strategem and the 5+++ versus mortals strategem, it is statistically almost impossible that even a 6 dakkabot volley kills the castellan. How can I take my main list to a tourney when the castellan exist? Assuming nothing is nerfed between now and socal open, my plan is to run knights at BAO and then get back into admech before the socal open. I regard the following as the only serious competitive admech list that would have a fighting chance against every list in that meta list above.
STYGIES - 1x enginseer, 3x12 staffpriests, 3x1 stormbolter termites, 2x1 icarus onager with bolters
VALHALLA - 2x commanders with bolters, 3x10 guard with bolter sargs
BLANGELS - 2x smash captains, 1x mephiston, 3x5 bolter scouts with stormbolter
There are variations where you drop mephiston and try to add more guard shooting, but I think the existence of eldar and smite spam lists make such plans foolish. Meph gives you two solid denies so you have a chance against eldar spells and the icarus is the single most accurate anti flier weapon in the game (artemia hellhounds are also a possibility but they statistically don't do that much damage and the models are way to expensive). The list I put above relies on a devastating assault phase backed up by just enough anti flyer shooting to widdle down hemlocks. And yes, I do think 3x drill lists are tier 1. If only I had drills.
The way I see it, due to the existence of Castellans and the end of turn one deep strike, a ton of matchups have devolved into who shoots better first. I think GW is sort of designing themselves into a corner right now in terms of balancing turn one.
Anyhow, units with high model counts or models with high wound count have to be able to grievously hurt a Castellan or they will be deleted in the second turn. Given Mars Kastelans can hurt a Castellan just as much as it can hurt them, I think they're still in the running. However, small units or individual vehicles are much safer, as it makes the Castellan is a gross over-investment in killing power.
That being said, 3x Drill with 3x12 Fulgurite seems extreme, though I guess it makes sense that you want to run this as a Vanguard detachment. I was thinking 2x Drill at most; even then, you only get to fight twice with one of these units. Maybe bring two Vanguard units as well (5x and 5-7x with 2x Caliver); get within 12" and most enemies lose their -1 to hit?
I think the Guard detachment you bring would also need Mortars. That or you bring 10x Death Company with Bolters+Chainswords. Something to fight the few odd horde armies out there.
Elite - 192 12x Fulgurite Electro-Priest - Electroleech Stave
Fast Attack - 272 4x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
House Taranis Super-Heavy Detachment - 702
Lord of War - 702 1x Knight Gallant - Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber, Warlord: Ion Bulwark, Relic: Armour of the Sainted Ion
1x Armiger Helverin - 2x Armiger Autocannon, Heavy Stubber
1x Armiger Helverin - 2x Armiger Autocannon, Heavy Stubber
Total: 1997 points 16 CP (-2)
Basically, you have Guard and 2x Helverin to play the board and clear screens. Charge in with 2x Drill with 4x Caliver and 12x Fulgurite payloads (both are options that have historically suffered because they are too fragile without a transport), 4x Dragoons, and the Gallant.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But just to be clear, not necessarily recommending this list, though I think it would work.
Suzuteo wrote: The meta is confusing right now. The lists to beat seem to be, in order of my opinion of their threat:
Drukhari Soup: DE + Craftworld psykers in support
Ynnari: Psykers, Shining Spears, Dark Reapers + DE vehicles
Imperium Soup: BA + Guard CP Battery w/ Hellhounds/Bullgryns/Basilisks + Castellan
1K Sons: 24" Smite spammm
Knights: Castellan, Questoris of choice, naked Gallant + Guard CP Battery + AdMech Battalion
Custodes Soup: Custodes Bikes + BA + Guard CP Battery
Death Guard: Balanced list built around Mortarion with some Nurgle Daemons
Nurgle Daemons: Daemon Prince spam and DG support
BA Deathball: Slamguinius, Lemartes, Sanguinor, Mephiston + Scouts + Sanguinary Guard, Death Company
Genestealers: Genestealers backed by Tyranids
Orks: Green Tide backed by Kannons
Basically, it's either flyers, assault armies, or both. Only exception seems to be 1K Sons, which is just the old Smite spam list on steroids. Really, anything that bypasses -1 to hit is strong right now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyhow, I won't be participating in BAO, but here's an interesting idea:
Spoiler:
Blood Angels Battalion Detachment - 439
HQ - 274 1x Captain w/ Jump Pack - Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, Warlord Trait: Artisan of War (or Soulwarden), Relic: Angel's Wing, Death Visions of Sanguinius
1x Mephiston - Powers: Quickening, Shield of Sanguinius, Wings of Sanguinius
Heavy Support - 660 6x Kastelan Robot (Mars) - 18x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Total: 2000 points 18 CP (-2)
I've been attempting to reconcile the whole Stygies vs. Mars question for awhile now, but I think that we're well past the point where the question is meaningful because of how pure shooting is pretty much out these days. We also have to contend with a ridiculous high-low mix of threats. Castellans and Knights at the high end, Eldar and Guard at the low end. This list attempts to balance shooting and fighting elements. For the shooting, a Cawlstar, which can still delete units off the map like nothing else. For the fighting, Slamguinius and Mephiston backed by choppy Scouts (don't underestimate how dangerous Chainswords are with Red Thirst) and a Drill filled with Fulgurites. The AdMech Battalion is mixed, meaning we lose the dogmas, but we gain flexibility in stratagem usage; losing the extra Canticle is never a big deal, and the Drill is never outside of 12" anyway. Wrath of Mars, Clandestine Infiltration, and Steel Logic are all really good stratagems and well worth the trade-off.
This is the correct read of the meta. I regard MARS admech as dead. I ran some mathhammer on my castellan. With the strategem and assuming the admech player has pshroudpsalm and aegis protocols, the castellan will kill on average 4 robots a turn (3 if he can't get in melta range, which is still gg). Without aegis it is even worse. And assuming the admech player goes first, if the castellan player plays the 3++ strategem and the 5+++ versus mortals strategem, it is statistically almost impossible that even a 6 dakkabot volley kills the castellan. How can I take my main list to a tourney when the castellan exist? Assuming nothing is nerfed between now and socal open, my plan is to run knights at BAO and then get back into admech before the socal open. I regard the following as the only serious competitive admech list that would have a fighting chance against every list in that meta list above.
STYGIES - 1x enginseer, 3x12 staffpriests, 3x1 stormbolter termites, 2x1 icarus onager with bolters
VALHALLA - 2x commanders with bolters, 3x10 guard with bolter sargs
BLANGELS - 2x smash captains, 1x mephiston, 3x5 bolter scouts with stormbolter
There are variations where you drop mephiston and try to add more guard shooting, but I think the existence of eldar and smite spam lists make such plans foolish. Meph gives you two solid denies so you have a chance against eldar spells and the icarus is the single most accurate anti flier weapon in the game (artemia hellhounds are also a possibility but they statistically don't do that much damage and the models are way to expensive). The list I put above relies on a devastating assault phase backed up by just enough anti flyer shooting to widdle down hemlocks. And yes, I do think 3x drill lists are tier 1. If only I had drills.
So what’s your BAO list of knights looking like? Space for a Gallant in there?
I was crunching some math, and I discovered something interesting. With the Doctrina, a Lascannon Ballistarius outdamages an Icarus Crawler against Hemlock and Wave Serpent, whereas Icarus is strictly better against Battlesuits and Dark Eldar vehicles without -1 to hit. Autocannons have a niche in bringing down Dark Eldar vehicles with the -1 to hit. Of course, the Ironstriders are good against non-flying units too.
Here are the points per damage:
vs. Hemlock
Icarus: 49.69911504
Auto Balli: 50.625
*WINNER* Las Balli: 43.97142857
vs. Wave Serpent
Icarus: 48.4137931
Auto Balli: 90
*WINNER* Las Balli: 38.475
vs. Tau Commander
*WINNER* Icarus: 22.82926829
Auto Balli: 33.75
Las Balli: 29.31428571
vs. Razorwing/Venom
Icarus: 28.7704918
*WINNER* Auto Balli: 25.3125
Las Balli: 36.64285714
vs. Ravager
*WINNER* Icarus: 23.01639344
Auto Balli: 25.3125
Las Balli: 36.64285714
And yeah, these numbers also sort of underscore why I am not a big fan of Autocannons, on both Ironstriders and Helverins. They are way too niche.
Suzuteo wrote: I was crunching some math, and I discovered something interesting. With the Doctrina, a Lascannon Ballistarius outdamages an Icarus Crawler against Hemlock and Wave Serpent, whereas Icarus is strictly better against Battlesuits and Dark Eldar vehicles without -1 to hit. Autocannons have a niche in bringing down Dark Eldar vehicles with the -1 to hit. Of course, the Ironstriders are good against non-flying units too.
Here are the points per damage:
vs. Hemlock
Icarus: 49.69911504
Auto Balli: 50.625
*WINNER* Las Balli: 43.97142857
vs. Wave Serpent
Icarus: 48.4137931
Auto Balli: 90
*WINNER* Las Balli: 38.475
vs. Tau Commander
*WINNER* Icarus: 22.82926829
Auto Balli: 33.75
Las Balli: 29.31428571
vs. Razorwing/Venom
Icarus: 28.7704918
*WINNER* Auto Balli: 25.3125
Las Balli: 36.64285714
vs. Ravager
*WINNER* Icarus: 23.01639344
Auto Balli: 25.3125
Las Balli: 36.64285714
And yeah, these numbers also sort of underscore why I am not a big fan of Autocannons, on both Ironstriders and Helverins. They are way too niche.
Nearly half of the shots an icarus array puts out are an autocannon, the only difference is the +1 to Fly. Never mind for 20 pts more than an icarus onager you get 2 auto ballistarii!
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