Hi,

Sorry, if I'm posting in the wrong tread I'm new here.

I read most of this discussion on ork tactics and there has been a point that caught me off guard.

All of you seems too agree that Shoota boyz are better to clear weak infantry screens on T1 (to allow jump and deepstrike sheninigans) with the Bad Moons kulturs

And I don't really see why because : say you start first you will not be in range with your shoota, so you will most likely advance to get the most boyz as possible in range.

Then the kulturs Evil sunz seems way better as :
- you go faster (+2 with move+advance)
-you don't get the -1 for advancing (hitting on 5/6 is stricly better that hitting on 6 rerolling 1)

Waiting to be proven wrong by people that have played this army way more than I did

You da jump a 30+10 squad of badmoons shootas and you can clear 30 guardsmen from just your shoot phase.

I thought about that but when you calc the average shoot that bad moons give with the rerool on a 30 men unit of shoota bois its only 2,16666 more shoot

evil sunz are better for advancing and shooting because they give 6 more shoot when you advance while bad moons only give 1.16666

Also if you Da Jump the shoota bois, you will be able to Da Jump the choppa bois but with more difficulty

Also to clear 30 IG you will need to use the Bad moons stratagem, then I see why you need to play them bad moons but then you cannot use it on your lootas

So I'm thorn between the two and I don't really see a clear winner

Well, here's the math of 30 Bad Moonz Shoota Boyz that you Da Jump in.

60 shots, 5+ BS (reroll 1s and exploding 6s) S4, AP0, D1:
20 hits, 10 rerolls for 3.3 more hits, 10 extra attacks from DDD gives another 3.3 hits. That's a total of 26.6 hits.

Against T3 Guardsmen, you'll Wound 2/3rds of those hits, so about 17.6 Wounds. After a 4+ Save, you'll be looking at 8.8 Damage.

Then, if you need to, you use the Showing Off Stratagem to do all that again, so 17.6 Damage before you even need to Charge.

Evil Sunz, on the other hand, will get 23.3 hits, 15.4 Wounds, and 7.7 Damage, with no opportunity to shoot a second time. So, even without shooting twice, you're looking at about 1 more dead Guardsman compared to Evil Sunz. With Showing Off, you'll take out 10 more Guardsmen.

Evil Sunz trade that extra damage for being able to Advance and Shoot without penalty, more reliable charges, and being faster in general.

My personal opinion is to just use the Kultur that best fits your play style.

Are you playing the PJ pants list?
60 boyz
Flashgitz
Bustas
And usual gunz+grots+hq?

Thanks for your quick answer!

That question about kulture was also bring because in the latest list that won a tournament ( one of the two featured in the Panda week-end run down https://imgur.com/a/GN6c5T7 )

He used Lootas and Boyz in a bad moons detachement meaning that T1 you have to choose where to use Showin' Off So I didn't quit get the point of playing the boyz as bad moons

But you are right that 1 guardsmen kill difference can also be a reason too play them as bad moons even without the stratagem

I will try that on my next game thanks for the advice !

Edit: I'm playing a green tide list 110-120 bois very much like the list linked, but with less mek guns ( I don't have have that many ) and a mek with KFF on bike

It's match up dependent... if you show off and moar dakka 40 bad moons shoota Boyz you clear things like plague bearers more reliably than lootas.

With the lists running mobs of gretchin, what's the use and benefit? Is it the raw number of wounds? Does their damage pay off?

No one takes Gretchin for their damage potential. They have 3 main uses.

1) they generate CP on the cheap. If you want to use Stratagems, you need Gretchin, plain and simple.

2) they protect more powerful units with Grot Shields. Spending 1 CP for 10+ ablative Wounds is a steal, especially considering how flimsy most Ork units are.

3) they can sit on Objectives. They're so weak and pathetic, there's no real cost efficient way to take them out. You'll always feel like you wasted your weapon's or unit's potential by having to focus on these buggers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I forgot about Deepstrike Denial, which kind of ties into point #3. If your opponent wants to drop something in your backfield, Gretchin can cover a lot of ground, are cheap, and (as I said) make your opponent wish he could shoot at something more dangerous.

What list are you playing?

You can find it in Panda's round up I linked earlier - it's the list with the gitz

 flandarz wrote:
No one takes Gretchin for their damage potential. They have 3 main uses.

1) they generate CP on the cheap. If you want to use Stratagems, you need Gretchin, plain and simple.

2) they protect more powerful units with Grot Shields. Spending 1 CP for 10+ ablative Wounds is a steal, especially considering how flimsy most Ork units are.

3) they can sit on Objectives. They're so weak and pathetic, there's no real cost efficient way to take them out. You'll always feel like you wasted your weapon's or unit's potential by having to focus on these buggers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I forgot about Deepstrike Denial, which kind of ties into point #3. If your opponent wants to drop something in your backfield, Gretchin can cover a lot of ground, are cheap, and (as I said) make your opponent wish he could shoot at something more dangerous.

Sorry I should have clarified, I was referring to units of 20-30 like in Steven Pampreen's and Charles Velazquez's lists in Panda's run down.
Using MSU units of 10 makes a lot of a sense but I'm curious what the benefit of going over 20 in a unit is and how people are running them.

Ah. Well then I honestly don't know.

flandarz

Well, here's the math of 30 Bad Moonz Shoota Boyz that you Da Jump in.

60 shots, 5+ BS (reroll 1s and exploding 6s) S4, AP0, D1:
20 hits, 10 rerolls for 3.3 more hits, 10 extra attacks from DDD gives another 3.3 hits. That's a total of 26.6 hits.

Against T3 Guardsmen, you'll Wound 2/3rds of those hits, so about 17.6 Wounds. After a 4+ Save, you'll be looking at 8.8 Damage.

Just a quick question, the shot that you get from rerolling don't generate DDD proc ? and can you reroll 1 for shot that you get from the DDD proc ?

Yes and yes.

Its often overlooked that you can do that. Im not even sure how you math that. I just know the bad moonz + ddd is sliiiiightly worse than 4+ on average, but it combats -1 to hit better than BS4+

 flandarz wrote:
Well, here's the math of 30 Bad Moonz Shoota Boyz that you Da Jump in.

60 shots, 5+ BS (reroll 1s and exploding 6s) S4, AP0, D1:
20 hits, 10 rerolls for 3.3 more hits, 10 extra attacks from DDD gives another 3.3 hits. That's a total of 26.6 hits.

Against T3 Guardsmen, you'll Wound 2/3rds of those hits, so about 17.6 Wounds. After a 4+ Save, you'll be looking at 8.8 Damage.

Then, if you need to, you use the Showing Off Stratagem to do all that again, so 17.6 Damage before you even need to Charge.

Evil Sunz, on the other hand, will get 23.3 hits, 15.4 Wounds, and 7.7 Damage, with no opportunity to shoot a second time. So, even without shooting twice, you're looking at about 1 more dead Guardsman compared to Evil Sunz. With Showing Off, you'll take out 10 more Guardsmen.

Evil Sunz trade that extra damage for being able to Advance and Shoot without penalty, more reliable charges, and being faster in general.

My personal opinion is to just use the Kultur that best fits your play style.

5+ BS? Sure? They have to move to get in position = 6+ BS. That change the numbers.

why would they be hitting on 6s for moving? boyz use assault weapons, they didnt advanced they jumped.
He just mentioned the Evil Sunz ability as a comparison for Bad Moonz.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yes and yes.

Its often overlooked that you can do that. Im not even sure how you math that. I just know the bad moonz + ddd is sliiiiightly worse than 4+ on average, but it combats -1 to hit better than BS4+

After some quick maths ork with bad moons and the rule DDD are BS 4.6+

40 shoota bois: aprox 37 hit

And with the More DDD stratagem its aprox 46 shoot so a pretty meh increase (+9 %)

But as You said before in the tread, its way better too cancel malus:because 40 shoota bois on 6+ are only hitting 18 time so the More DDD stratagem give them 28 more shoot so a + 150% increase in number of shoot !

thanks for the quick answer,

 Emicrania wrote:
Are you playing the PJ pants list?
60 boyz
Flashgitz
Bustas
And usual gunz+grots+hq?

I think you mean PJ was playing my list We were on the same team for ATC and he mainly plays sigmar now so I built him a list.

my list from memory this weekend:
deffskull
sag mek
kff mek
3x10 grots

bad moons
weirdboy
weirdboy
30 boys w/ big choppa
3x10 grots
15 bustas

Freebootas
badruck
warboss on bike
30 boys w/ big choppa
2x10 grots
1x28 grots
10 flash gitz with 2 ammo runts
5 smasha guns
1 traktor cannon

 vercingatorix wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
Are you playing the PJ pants list?
60 boyz
Flashgitz
Bustas
And usual gunz+grots+hq?

I think you mean PJ was playing my list We were on the same team for ATC and he mainly plays sigmar now so I built him a list.

my list from memory this weekend:
deffskull
sag mek
kff mek
3x10 grots

bad moons
weirdboy
weirdboy
30 boys w/ big choppa
3x10 grots
15 bustas

Freebootas
badruck
warboss on bike
30 boys w/ big choppa
2x10 grots
1x28 grots
10 flash gitz with 2 ammo runts
5 smasha guns
1 traktor cannon

Oh brother hallelujah! That list is gorgeous! I've been going insane to see it streamed somewhere but so far no luck. I'm dying to know how you play it! What secondary you pick, how do you deploy and how you manouvre vs agents of Vect and knights?!

I WILL steal this list and play it at a GT in October, i think it is fluffy (ok that SSAG Deffskull maybe not ), has great sinergy and it it very hard to play right, which means it is multilayered and engaging to play. Tell me more!

 vercingatorix wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
Are you playing the PJ pants list?
60 boyz
Flashgitz
Bustas
And usual gunz+grots+hq?

I think you mean PJ was playing my list We were on the same team for ATC and he mainly plays sigmar now so I built him a list.

my list from memory this weekend:
deffskull
sag mek
kff mek
3x10 grots

bad moons
weirdboy
weirdboy
30 boys w/ big choppa
3x10 grots
15 bustas

Freebootas
badruck
warboss on bike
30 boys w/ big choppa
2x10 grots
1x28 grots
10 flash gitz with 2 ammo runts
5 smasha guns
1 traktor cannon

No runt herds though? Won't the grots evaporate to morale losses? They will be on the front lines, won't they?

I really cant think of a scenario where id want a runtherd instead of just taking 10 more grots.

^ this. Unless you're running multiple 30-blobs, Runtherds are never gonna save enough Grots to get their points back. And even then, you'd probably just be better off using the Breakin' Headz ability of a Warboss/Nobz.

Only way he's "worth" it is if you have multiple squads of 30 grots that are going to be near enough for him to cover both.
Which why the heck would you take THAT many grots? They dont do anything other than get in the way (both enemy movement and bullets).
He has to save minimum 12 grots to make his points back. If you forget about the ones he kills to keep order that sounds easy, but usually the entire squad will die before it made sense to bring him instead of just bringing 4x10 grots in the first place.

Fair enough. I figured if he could keep a grot squad alive for longer than a turn he might be worth it, but if the warboss can do his job too then maybe not.
How would I go about converting a runt herd into a weird boy? I'm thinking of picking up more grots, and I don't need that many runt herds. The fact that its only 10 gretchin per box is pretty annoying. I miss the days when GW sold things in their 20s.

I have a weirdboy converted from a runtherd and I did it by sticking a bull skull from the nobs box on his head and attaching the big skull face from the deff dread kit to his grot prod. Add lots of warpaint and glowing eyes, and TA-da, weirdboy.

If you don't have those bits, just get creative with him. He's already got a funky looking staff, so all he needs is some skulls really.

 Emicrania wrote:

 vercingatorix wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
Are you playing the PJ pants list?
60 boyz
Flashgitz
Bustas
And usual gunz+grots+hq?

I think you mean PJ was playing my list We were on the same team for ATC and he mainly plays sigmar now so I built him a list.

my list from memory this weekend:
deffskull
sag mek
kff mek
3x10 grots

bad moons
weirdboy
weirdboy
30 boys w/ big choppa
3x10 grots
15 bustas

Freebootas
badruck
warboss on bike
30 boys w/ big choppa
2x10 grots
1x28 grots
10 flash gitz with 2 ammo runts
5 smasha guns
1 traktor cannon

Oh brother hallelujah! That list is gorgeous! I've been going insane to see it streamed somewhere but so far no luck. I'm dying to know how you play it! What secondary you pick, how do you deploy and how you manouvre vs agents of Vect and knights?!

I WILL steal this list and play it at a GT in October, i think it is fluffy (ok that SSAG Deffskull maybe not ), has great sinergy and it it very hard to play right, which means it is multilayered and engaging to play. Tell me more!

If you can find the stream for Gencon I was playing this on stream. I believe they streamed it to facebook? I asked some people there and will let y'all know if I find it.

Edit: Found it! https://www.facebook.com/MAGSTournaments/videos/450490462200587/

That list was slightly different, I had 30 less boys for a plane and more smashas.

Vs vect, once you figure it out tell me, I'm 1 for 2 against it. It's brutal. As long as I can hide my stuff it's fine though basically. I lost this weekend because I couldn't hide anything from the damn bomber. I could have with better deployment, I just failed too realize it there.

Vs knights, I just put flash gitz dead center and hid bustas out of LOS, both knight lists had no or very little out of LOS shooting which my opponents failed to take advantage fully.

I think I'm gonna give up on boys though, they've just been useless to me.

ManTube wrote:
I have a weirdboy converted from a runtherd and I did it by sticking a bull skull from the nobs box on his head and attaching the big skull face from the deff dread kit to his grot prod. Add lots of warpaint and glowing eyes, and TA-da, weirdboy.

If you don't have those bits, just get creative with him. He's already got a funky looking staff, so all he needs is some skulls really.

Hmm I do have a bunch of shrunken heads and animal skull looking things from my lizardmen sets. I guess I'll try that.

People were discussing probability and hitting with dakka dakka dakka and re-rolls, the math isn't so bad you just need to account for all the cases.
Here's a lil chart for all ballistic skills some time ago. This is the EXPECTED number of hits per shot made, not the probability of hitting. In some cases this is greater than 1 and that's because of Dakka Dakka Dakka triggering. This chart doesn't accurately apply to the deathskull trait or ammo runts.

I was wondering why there was a 2+ BS on there, then I remembered that we have exactly 2 models that can get to a 2+: the Flashgit Kaptin with Gitfinda and Freebooterz Procced, and the Dakkajet with All da Dakka, Freebooterz, and Long, Uncontrolled Bursts.

A Freebooterz shokkjump dragsta is also another candidate.

I think I made that before the codex had come out but the rules for Dakka Dakka Dakka and More Dakka had been revealed, so I just included all cases because it was easier than excluding any.

Man. Our buggies are so lackluster I completely forgot about that one.

Shokkjump is probably the only buggy i wouldnt forget about.
I swear if the Wartrike didnt have that charge aura we wouldnt see him either.

ive had that shockjump win me games. Ive also had it do jack diddly squat but that just means its not absolutely amazing, but still good.

The only thing I really don't care for with it is that if you want to Advance into Charge range, you're probably gonna end up getting jumped out further than you wanna be. Really wish it had more than 3 shots as well. It's so... middle of the road, when this game rewards specialization.

I think 3 deathskulls shokkjump dragstas can put in some work but I don't think it's enough compared to our other choices.
A megatrakk scrapjet has approximately 5 rokkits it fires, which is comparable to the AT shots coming out of the shokkjump dragsta.
And then it has 2 twin big shootas.
And a nose drill, which is strictly better then the saw blades.
And a spiked ram.
I know the scrapjet loses out on mobility, but that's a lot more killy and versatile for 10 less points. If you need mobility you can make it evil sunz and give it +2" base movement and another 2"-7" if it advances.
Maybe I'm undervaluing the teleport. I feel like for me to consider running it in my ITC games I'd need it to be closer to the cost of a double KMB dread (103 points), or have some other benefit.

i'll admit the rate of fire is kinda bullcrap.
I cant even think of another army equivalent at all, let alone one thats used, with the same statline.

The absolute closest is Ironstriders with lascannons, which are 80pts T6 6W 4+ 6++. Only 2 shots, but its way further reach, has stratagems to make them hit on 2s even against fliers, and 40pts less
Still a major difference.

Ahh the buggies. Too "big" as to be cheap, too few guns as to shoot properly. On top, the guns they have have zero to negative synergy (maybe except the scrapjet).

 slyche wrote:
Hi,

Sorry, if I'm posting in the wrong tread I'm new here.

I read most of this discussion on ork tactics and there has been a point that caught me off guard.

All of you seems too agree that Shoota boyz are better to clear weak infantry screens on T1 (to allow jump and deepstrike sheninigans) with the Bad Moons kulturs

I prefer evil suns for T1 da jump chaff clearing. Principle being 30 boyz will kill or at least cripple one target fairly well and then reliably charge 2 more and maim those. With bad moons yes you shoot bit better but odds of charging drops from 78% to 58%. Too low to really count for.

Showing off is of course a thing but rarely I find myself where I would shoot twice with boyz rather than lootas in T1 and if I have bad moons I have lootas.

As for why 30 rather than 40 I don't like mobbing up boyz because it prevents green tide. I find I need to have at least 3 units that can mob up to have decent chance of actually using that stratagem. If I have 30+30+10 and mob up it's basically never used and 70 boyz dies like in a turn. 30+30+30+10 MIGHT work but 2 is still risky and I find myself out of boyz by turn 3 if I don't have at least 3 units + green tided unit.

I just watched the stream, good job vs those flying cheetos! one thing I´ve done differently is that I´d jumped the shoota boyz backline and tried to shoot/charge that back unit in order to deny/grab objective asap. I play a pure freeboterz Inspired by Ben Jurek and I use my shoota boyz either to proc the +1 , or to be a distraction carnifex. People tend to overcommit to kill 30 boyz, especially if they can see that you have 5 CP left or 3+freeboterz flag.
I haven´t play this list yet, but i think the strenght of it is in the similarity to a horde even if grots are basically ablative Wounds and obj takers. As Dj are awesome, in this list you play, they might be more a problem than a solution. They are still T6 4+, even with the -1 to hit. Maybe a DS Gorka for T2 backline clearing? Situationational , but I am training to go 2nd every match atm and I was vs AD Mech with breachers, Knight, warglaive, robots loyal 32, you name it. By T2 I had left the smashas, some grots, HQ´s and my DS Gorka vs his everything minus a knight. Well 3d6 charge and a warboss charge later i basically won the match. A 4 CP investment can be horrific on those castles, once you cleared chaffs and so on.
VS vect, dunno man, more than sitting in ruins and/or KFF we cant do much,I don´t think a painboy is a good investment with so little W pool. Is mostly all about careful positioning in magic boxes and out of LOS than anything else really.
I ll have to try it after the GT I have on the 6th, I´ll let you know. But I think that list is gonna be in the new meta for a while, especially vs marines.

One question thought, how were you speedrolling those smashas? The commentary was pretty confused...
Also, why you took those W on the Bustas T2? didn´t you use Grot Shield? Can´t you use more unit to soak up dmg?

@Emicrania: Once again, please provide links to sources outside of dakka if you are referring to them. Other people would like to watch that stream as well without needing to google it.

It is in the spoiler my man

Question

Is there a viable way to run a low model count ork army that can hold its own?

my plane blew up and did wounds to the bustas. Was very unfortunate.

If I recall correctly, I had to prioritize da jumping the tank bustas because the planes weren't in range from their bunker. I need at least 3 planes in range to make it worth my while cause 15 tankbustas should do like 51 wounds to planes with 3+ or 5++.

Then after that the game was basically over as I killed like 1300 points of his army so I wasn't going super hard.

:edited for missing a word

daismith906 wrote:Question

Is there a viable way to run a low model count ork army that can hold its own?

Yes, double/triple gorka+gunz+triple plane.

vercingatorix wrote:my plane blew up and did wounds to the bustas. Was very unfortunate.

If I recall correctly, I had to prioritize da jumping the tank bustas because the planes weren't in range from their bunker. I need at least 3 planes in range to make it worth my while cause 51 should do like 51 wounds to planes with 3+ or 5++.

Then after that the game was basically over as I killed like 1300 points of his army so I wasn't going super hard.

Yeah I understand, keep on with the list, Ill PM you when I get the chance to play a couple of times.

 Emicrania wrote:
It is in the spoiler my man

Yah, me blind. Sorry!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

daismith906 wrote:
Question

Is there a viable way to run a low model count ork army that can hold its own?

In what kind of context? What do you consider a low model count?

"low model count" for orks still has at least 60 grots floating around.

There is no reason to not bring battalions if you are trying to run max vehicles instead. Gretchin and the extra HQ are basically trading a vehicle for 4CP per battalion. And even though vehicle orks dont devour AS much CP as loota/flashgit/greentide orks, still suicide to run with less than 10CP imo.

I have a 1k Ork list that only has something like 50 models. A CP Battalion with a SSAG, SAG, Mork, and 30 Gretchin, then an Outrider Detachment with a Biker Boss and 3 groups of Warbikers. Probably far from the most competitive build around, but I like it.

Ben Jurek original list had about 60 models on the 2k mark. Even those 20 meganobz lists have at least 60 grots more backing them up.

How are people best using their Meganobz?
Loadouts, transport, Kultur?

I was thinking a max size unit, with kustom shootas and claws, running Evil Sunz kultur for a more reliable charge.

Then Da Jumping them where ever they can do the most damage.

 dan2026 wrote:
How are people best using their Meganobz?
Loadouts, transport, Kultur?

I was thinking a max size unit, with kustom shootas and claws, running Evil Sunz kultur for a more reliable charge.

Then Da Jumping them where ever they can do the most damage.

Large unit with all klaws and normal shootas (via Index, if that’s available to you), Evil Sunz and Tellyporta stratagem is probably the best way. Deffskulls minimum sized unit in a rokkit Trukk with a kombi-rokkit and mix of klaws and saws for fun games isn’t terrible.

On the First page there is a 20 meganobz list Liam Hackett used. I guess he jumps one and DS another one, but as everything in 40k that is situational. Evil sunz is the way to go btw

 dan2026 wrote:
How are people best using their Meganobz?
Loadouts, transport, Kultur?

I was thinking a max size unit, with kustom shootas and claws, running Evil Sunz kultur for a more reliable charge.

Then Da Jumping them where ever they can do the most damage.

On my shelf, collecting dust. as soon as they are competitive they will come out again, I personally don't like the model that much so I only have 6, but they can be fun (fluff wise) when you put them near ghaz.

The big thing keeping me from fielding MANz is that, while fairly durable, they don't deal much damage to anything. That -1 to hit from the Klaw really hurts them, and their ranged options are all pretty sub-par. And, honestly, with all the AP in the game, that 2+ Save isn't even that attractive either. They just have a lot of problems that make normal Nobz and Boyz better at anything you'd want them to do.

 flandarz wrote:
The big thing keeping me from fielding MANz is that, while fairly durable, they don't deal much damage to anything. That -1 to hit from the Klaw really hurts them, and their ranged options are all pretty sub-par. And, honestly, with all the AP in the game, that 2+ Save isn't even that attractive either. They just have a lot of problems that make normal Nobz and Boyz better at anything you'd want them to do.

4 Meganobz = 140pts 5 Hellblasters = 165pts

5 Hellblasters WITH NO BUFFS, fire 5 shots at 30 or 10 shots at 15, without supercharging they hit 3.33 and 6.66 respectively and wound 2.22 and 4.44 which inflict 1.86 damage and 3.7 damage. If they super charge their shots its 3.33 and 6.66 hits still, 3.16 and 6.5 wounds which translate into 6 and 13ish damage. So those Hellblasters can basically wipe out a Meganobz squad at 15' range or kill half of it at 30' range. So much for durability, and as you mentioned flandarz, Units with that kind of -AP are not exactly rare in this edition.

Do people think regular Nobz with Big Choppas would get more work done?

I'd personally just give them Dual Choppas. That's 50 attacks on a full mob, for 140 points (the same number of points you'd spend on just 4 MANz with 12 attacks). With S5, they're already at a good place for Wounding, and we have better options for dealing with anything that needs AP. Use them to take out screens and elite infantry, and leave the vehicles to your Smashas, Killa Klaw Biker Boss, and SSAG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As much as I hate to say it, in 8th edition volume of attacks/shots means more than Strength, AP, or Damage.

You make a good point.
With the two ammo grots there to soak up some overwatch it's only 148 points.
Dirt cheap for 50 S5 attacks.

Crush your enemy under weight of dice.

i'd recommend a mix. I generally run 6/4 bigchoppa vs dualchoppa but ive often thought i should switch that.

Bigchoppas strength difference isnt really amazing since it isnt S8, thus isnt really better in most situations. And when it is, theyre probably fighting something they shouldnt be.
But they do 2flat damage and have an AP so they still shred through primaris.

But there is no reason to fully equip them with bigchoppas. Theyre tougher than boyz to kill but not by much so might as well save 25-30pts.

And of course, ALL their guns are worthlessly overpriced. Unless you talk index options and give'm kustomshootas for 2pts. 20pts for 40 shots 40 swings instead of 0 shots 50 swings is pretty dope. But, index only.

SemperMortis wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
The big thing keeping me from fielding MANz is that, while fairly durable, they don't deal much damage to anything. That -1 to hit from the Klaw really hurts them, and their ranged options are all pretty sub-par. And, honestly, with all the AP in the game, that 2+ Save isn't even that attractive either. They just have a lot of problems that make normal Nobz and Boyz better at anything you'd want them to do.

4 Meganobz = 140pts 5 Hellblasters = 165pts

5 Hellblasters WITH NO BUFFS, fire 5 shots at 30 or 10 shots at 15, without supercharging they hit 3.33 and 6.66 respectively and wound 2.22 and 4.44 which inflict 1.86 damage and 3.7 damage. If they super charge their shots its 3.33 and 6.66 hits still, 3.16 and 6.5 wounds which translate into 6 and 13ish damage. So those Hellblasters can basically wipe out a Meganobz squad at 15' range or kill half of it at 30' range. So much for durability, and as you mentioned flandarz, Units with that kind of -AP are not exactly rare in this edition.

MANz have 3 wounds each and Hellblasters do 2d overcharged. There will be overkill as it takes 2 hits to kill each nob. 5 HBs will only kill 2 and take one down to 1 wound in rapid fire range before getting mulched in CC

redboi wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
The big thing keeping me from fielding MANz is that, while fairly durable, they don't deal much damage to anything. That -1 to hit from the Klaw really hurts them, and their ranged options are all pretty sub-par. And, honestly, with all the AP in the game, that 2+ Save isn't even that attractive either. They just have a lot of problems that make normal Nobz and Boyz better at anything you'd want them to do.

4 Meganobz = 140pts 5 Hellblasters = 165pts

5 Hellblasters WITH NO BUFFS, fire 5 shots at 30 or 10 shots at 15, without supercharging they hit 3.33 and 6.66 respectively and wound 2.22 and 4.44 which inflict 1.86 damage and 3.7 damage. If they super charge their shots its 3.33 and 6.66 hits still, 3.16 and 6.5 wounds which translate into 6 and 13ish damage. So those Hellblasters can basically wipe out a Meganobz squad at 15' range or kill half of it at 30' range. So much for durability, and as you mentioned flandarz, Units with that kind of -AP are not exactly rare in this edition.

MANz have 3 wounds each and Hellblasters do 2d overcharged. There will be overkill as it takes 2 hits to kill each nob. 5 HBs will only kill 2 and take one down to 1 wound in rapid fire range before getting mulched in CC

LD 7, -3 so you also have a 1/3rd chance to have your last guy die from morale. Good point though. But again, if a squad can almost earn its points back in a single shooting phase then either the unit is OP OR and much more likely in this situation, the target unit is crap.

I'm thinking of using some Flash Gits as well.

Are they best Da Jumped or Tellyported into position?

I have good experience with MANs. But It' s hard to use them right. There is a risk. But they definetly can do a brutal damage.

What I do:
2 squads at least 5 MANs each. Evil sunz. In tellyporta.
Waagh banner on da jump.
Motoboss and weirdboy march forward.
Some boyz or whatever attacks enemy from other side, than you want to charge the, with the MANs.

Turn 1 (and 2 if necessary) clean the screens.
Than DS manz plus banner. MANs charge. If you have 2 squads, at least one of the hit. 5MAN dual killsaw = 20 attacks WS 3+ T10 AP-4 D2. Maybe Warpaht can make it better? Can fight twice. And there is about 70% you charge both of them. They slain a knight and stay alive and slay something else next round. If there is a warboss, they can move. If there is no warboss they have a troubles.

If enemy can run away, MANs are useless.

As I said, complicated to coordinate. But brutal.

Pretty much the only success I've had with MANz is in tying up a Tau online. Tau CC just ain't good enough to remove them, if you can lock them in.

SemperMortis wrote:

redboi wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
The big thing keeping me from fielding MANz is that, while fairly durable, they don't deal much damage to anything. That -1 to hit from the Klaw really hurts them, and their ranged options are all pretty sub-par. And, honestly, with all the AP in the game, that 2+ Save isn't even that attractive either. They just have a lot of problems that make normal Nobz and Boyz better at anything you'd want them to do.

4 Meganobz = 140pts 5 Hellblasters = 165pts

5 Hellblasters WITH NO BUFFS, fire 5 shots at 30 or 10 shots at 15, without supercharging they hit 3.33 and 6.66 respectively and wound 2.22 and 4.44 which inflict 1.86 damage and 3.7 damage. If they super charge their shots its 3.33 and 6.66 hits still, 3.16 and 6.5 wounds which translate into 6 and 13ish damage. So those Hellblasters can basically wipe out a Meganobz squad at 15' range or kill half of it at 30' range. So much for durability, and as you mentioned flandarz, Units with that kind of -AP are not exactly rare in this edition.

MANz have 3 wounds each and Hellblasters do 2d overcharged. There will be overkill as it takes 2 hits to kill each nob. 5 HBs will only kill 2 and take one down to 1 wound in rapid fire range before getting mulched in CC

LD 7, -3 so you also have a 1/3rd chance to have your last guy die from morale. Good point though. But again, if a squad can almost earn its points back in a single shooting phase then either the unit is OP OR and much more likely in this situation, the target unit is crap.

Only 2 will be dead, assuming you failed all your 6+ armor saves. So you will need a 6 on leadership to lose one.

This is in a vacuum assuming an ideal scenario where all hellblasters are in rapid fire range and haven't lost any models, against a perfect target that hellblasters are designed to counter. Hellblasters are indeed nasty, but they are also juicy targets for lootas and mek guns, or even as a charge target for regular boys. You'd be wise not to have your MANz sitting in the open infront of them in the first place. I also play marines and I can tell you hellblasters rarely make it to rapid fire range unmolested. You will almost never encounter this scenario unless you have made several horrible mistakes.

MANz are far from our best units and probably not top table material, but they aren't THAT bad

Agree with red boi. Just shoot those helblasters before jumping your MANz in front of them, they are a top priority unit to take out anyways and they don't have grot shields or similar to protect them.

Plus MANz still have the job to SECURE OBJECTIVES, not to klaw-murder something big. PKs simply don't do that in 8th.
You push them onto a central or forward objective, kill whatever is there and then stay there, forcing your opponent to deal with them or lose the game. Anything besides helblasters will struggle to kill them, and even helblasters aren't too hot unless they are Dark Angels.
We have multiple people place top 4 with blocks of 10 MANz to prove this works.

I will admit that, of our units, not many are able to Objective Camp as well as MANz. Probably best done as Deathskullz for Objective Secured.

Holding one objective with bloody expensive unit that can't do anything while sitting on objective when there's 5 other objectives to fight doesn't sound that good. At worst you don't even get any cards for that objective after 1st so get at most 1 card(which you might get with cheaper unit anyway) and maybe end of the game points if they somehow survive.

tneva82 wrote:
Holding one objective with bloody expensive unit that can't do anything while sitting on objective when there's 5 other objectives to fight doesn't sound that good. At worst you don't even get any cards for that objective after 1st so get at most 1 card(which you might get with cheaper unit anyway) and maybe end of the game points if they somehow survive.

Agreed. With ITC (or similar) rules it might be viable to keep a unit like this on an objective but with BRB/CA missions it’s just not really tenable most of the time. This highlights to me the many ways that ITC vs GW mission rules totally colours the conversation about good units and what they’re good for. I’m not saying either mission set is the correct way to play as I see the benefits of both, I just mean to point out that there is a big difference in how games are played in the various formats and how different strategy and tactics are between them. I really enjoy this thread (as well as the other tactics threads I read) and all of the insights people provide but I sometimes find it difficult to extrapolate which pearls of wisdom I can apply to my own CA Maelstrom games.

tneva82 wrote:
Holding one objective with bloody expensive unit that can't do anything while sitting on objective when there's 5 other objectives to fight doesn't sound that good. At worst you don't even get any cards for that objective after 1st so get at most 1 card(which you might get with cheaper unit anyway) and maybe end of the game points if they somehow survive.

I don't think the ladz were discussing Maelstrom games. But you are right, I wouldn't bring them to those games either since there is no place to put them that forces the enemy to react to them. A gorkanaut is much better choice for maelstrom since it's faster and more killy, allowing for big plays which get you multiple VP.

ITC and enternal war missions (which are also part of ETC) reward staying power, and MANz have plenty of that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flandarz wrote:
I will admit that, of our units, not many are able to Objective Camp as well as MANz. Probably best done as Deathskullz for Objective Secured.

You don't really need obSec for that, since their bases are huge and they still have multiple models there - most fast units will not be able to contest the objective in sufficient numbers, and even if they do, you krush 'em.
You also need the evil suns culture to make that charge, since you usually target objectives that are controlled by troops/firebase units of your opponent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something new to report:

I finished my Boomdakka Snazzwagon and gave it a spin, because every model deserves a chance, even if math says otherwise.

So... it was a solid meh. It drove around, took overwatch for the boyz, killed a few infantry models worth 63 points (including moral casualties), locked a tank in combat, but nothing worth 100 points.
Mek special is totally not impressive, it really should have the D2 of snazzguns. Burna bottles are bad, definitely not worth putting the buggy in danger, and the big shoota and grot blasta being what they are. It feels like putting a slightly better armed trukk without passengers on the table. Durability was not an issue simply because it didn't do enough damage for my opponent to bother with it. Slugga boyz killed more models shooting than it did.
I'd take it for 50-60 points but at its current points, I'd rather not. Hopefully the kustom boosta blasta does better.

That's a pity. It has nice RoF. A few of the buggies could use a price cut, tbh. With the exception of the Scrapjet; that's a lot of S8 shots for a 110pt vehicle.

KBB in my experience is my second-favorite buggy behind the skrapjet. With my freebootas I do also like the SDD, but it just doesn't roll as well as the skrapjet for me personally.

The trick with the KBB is you'll get a lot out of it if you know PRECISELY how much you can take out with the combination of the shooting + the charge mortal wounds, because otherwise you'll get stuck. It's one of the few buggies that really would rather be Evil Sunz than anything else, because it'll usually want to advance, it loves the extra 3" movement, and it loves the ES warlord trait to help it get back out.

The other option is to take it in your Blood Axes gretchin-detachment that you have for Cp fuel because of the Finkin Kap.

Basically it benefits hugely from being able to fall back and act.

Yeah, the KBB looks pretty good too. That and the scrapjet are probably the best buggies. The dragster would be nicer if it didn't commit suicide, but it still looks good.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, the KBB looks pretty good too. That and the scrapjet are probably the best buggies. The dragster would be nicer if it didn't commit suicide, but it still looks good.

It doesn't if it's Freebootas or Bad Moonz, which it always should be.

Freebootaz still don't protect anyone from overheating.

Dethskullz probably aren't a bad choice either. The chances of you rolling 2 ones is pretty slim, so you can just reroll it most of the time. And you get that nice invul too.

I think Evil Sunz and Dethskullz are overall the best kultures, especially if you are going for mono-kulture builds.

Evil Sunz is good if you have a lot of assault weapons and not much variable damage and you really need to get up close and personal. You'd think that mass infantry wouldn't benefit from Evil Sunz because of the lore, but they work pretty well with the speed boost.

Dethskulls are good for MSU ranged builds that feature a lot of units with variable damage or single shot ranged attacks.
KMBs are your friend.

I tend to run evil sunz though, as I don't have the models that make the most out of Dethskullz.

 Jidmah wrote:
Freebootaz still don't protect anyone from overheating.

I don't have the rules in front of me, so I don't remember if the rule states "unmodified roll of 1" for Ork overheat. But if it didn't, which is...kind of how I understood overheating in 8th, i.e. a -1 to hit makes you more likely to overheat...then shouldn't a +1 to hit make overheating impossible?

Agree. Unless I want to run Thrakka character, I usually go with mono deff-skulls now. The obSec on lootas, tank bustas and characters causes head-aches for enemy objective grabbers, 6++ helps both vehicles and infantry against shooting and characters in combat, and the re-rolls give klaws and kustom mega weapons a much need boost.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Freebootaz still don't protect anyone from overheating.

I don't have the rules in front of me, so I don't remember if the rule states "unmodified roll of 1" for Ork overheat. But if it didn't, which is...kind of how I understood overheating in 8th, i.e. a -1 to hit makes you more likely to overheat...then shouldn't a +1 to hit make overheating impossible?

All Kustom Mega Weapons have the unmodified roll of 1 for overheating, but otherwise, yes you're right.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Freebootaz still don't protect anyone from overheating.

I don't have the rules in front of me, so I don't remember if the rule states "unmodified roll of 1" for Ork overheat. But if it didn't, which is...kind of how I understood overheating in 8th, i.e. a -1 to hit makes you more likely to overheat...then shouldn't a +1 to hit make overheating impossible?

We just had this discussion a couple pages back, the ork codex almost exclusively uses "unmodified" when checking for sixes and ones.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Freebootaz still don't protect anyone from overheating.

I don't have the rules in front of me, so I don't remember if the rule states "unmodified roll of 1" for Ork overheat. But if it didn't, which is...kind of how I understood overheating in 8th, i.e. a -1 to hit makes you more likely to overheat...then shouldn't a +1 to hit make overheating impossible?

That was only in early 8th ed books. The GW is now going for the "unmodified" value approach to stop that sort of thing from happening.
Ork weapons only overheat on natural rolls, and I think the same goes for marine and chaos weapons.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Freebootaz still don't protect anyone from overheating.

I don't have the rules in front of me, so I don't remember if the rule states "unmodified roll of 1" for Ork overheat. But if it didn't, which is...kind of how I understood overheating in 8th, i.e. a -1 to hit makes you more likely to overheat...then shouldn't a +1 to hit make overheating impossible?

That was only in early 8th ed books. The GW is now going for the "unmodified" value approach to stop that sort of thing from happening.
Ork weapons only overheat on natural rolls, and I think the same goes for marine and chaos weapons.

Interesting. Fair enough, then. Honestly, as a gun with only 2 shots on it per turn, the number of times I've had the gets hot actually impact the performance of my SJD is preeeeeeetty small, particularly considering it just pops to any real application of antitank firepower and primarily it survives by virtue of there being more pressing, immediate threats for my opponent to target.


That's part of the weakness of the BDSW, in my opinion - it's arguably the "defensive" buggy, but it's still flimsy enough that it only takes a modicum more effort to destroy and it's still giving up points relatively quickly and easily. And its low offensive output means your opponent doesn't reeeeally have a reason to want it dead.

I've managed to make it a nuisance before, but not more of a nuisance than it would have been if it was a second copy of one of the other buggies.

If it were cheaper, then one could probably use it as a sacrificial harassment unit, like how small units of warhounds and swarms were used in Fantasy.

Basically, the idea is that you put in the way of the enemy and force them to deal with them, as they are in the way of enemy movement, they are attacking the flank, etc.
The -1 to hit and the 4+ explosion rule would lend credence to that tactic, as if they are right up in your opponents face, they have a could chance of exploding and killing some units. The -1 to hit would draw more fire than usual, which you can buff to -2 with the smoke clouds strat.
I really do suspect that when GW designed it, they were expecting players to use it as a sort of aggressive kamikaze unit, where your opponent has to decide whether to ignore it and take some harassing fire, or destroy it and take some mortal wounds.

The problem though is that 100 points is a lot for that sort of tactic. I don't think warhounds were 20+ points each at min unit size 5. Swarms were, iirc, but they tended to come in units of 3 and had a lot of wounds.

The snazzwagon should really be like, 60-70 points.

100pts is fine for a suicide unit if its deadly enough to actually do something.
I ran MANz missiles all the time in previous editions. They were usually pushing 200pts and they did marvelous work if ignored, or ate quite a bit of dakka to prevent it.

Snazzwagon doesnt do jack diddly squat. If it was 60pts, i'd be fine with it, or current price with 2x the dakka it has.
I view it as one of the worst buggies. Not the worst, thats the squigbuggy, but 2nd worst. It doesnt do ANYTHING even remotely worth that pricetag.
Always found it funny its main gun was shown off to be some sort of really high rate of fire machine gun...and its probably the worst RoF per cost that isnt a rokkit/kmb level of strong attack.

3x Snazzwagons is 4pts shy of 2x 6 Supa Dakkajets.
27 S5 AP2 1D + 9 S5 AP0 1D + 6D6 S4 grenades (assuming youre THAT close)
vs
36 S6 AP1 1D hitting on 4s

Snazzwagon technically has more shots, but lower strength and a good chunk of it is grenades and it can be very easily charged to death.
Dakkajets cannot be charged by most units

I'd never use Snazzwagons over a dakkajet. Theyre both designed to clear chaff, and one is a lot harder to get rid of since it cant be charged.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
100pts is fine for a suicide unit if its deadly enough to actually do something.
I ran MANz missiles all the time in previous editions. They were usually pushing 200pts and they did marvelous work if ignored, or ate quite a bit of dakka to prevent it.

Snazzwagon doesnt do jack diddly squat. If it was 60pts, i'd be fine with it, or current price with 2x the dakka it has.
I view it as one of the worst buggies. Not the worst, thats the squigbuggy, but 2nd worst. It doesnt do ANYTHING even remotely worth that pricetag.
Always found it funny its main gun was shown off to be some sort of really high rate of fire machine gun...and its probably the worst RoF per cost that isnt a rokkit/kmb level of strong attack.

3x Snazzwagons is 4pts shy of 2x 6 Supa Dakkajets.
27 S5 AP2 1D + 9 S5 AP0 1D + 6D6 S4 grenades (assuming youre THAT close)
vs
36 S6 AP1 1D hitting on 4s

Snazzwagon technically has more shots, but lower strength and a good chunk of it is grenades and it can be very easily charged to death.
Dakkajets cannot be charged by most units

I'd never use Snazzwagons over a dakkajet. Theyre both designed to clear chaff, and one is a lot harder to get rid of since it cant be charged.

There was a ridiculous argument some many pages back where I horrifically offended someone by saying the Snazzwagon is actually the worst buggy exactly because of that comparison with the dakkajet. The Squigbuggy is objectively horrendous and definitely the worst in a vacuum, but at least there isn't another unit that has the exact same defensive profile, exact same job, and just...does the job better and more efficiently and has better abilities.

There's no 100% better "36" range flexi-profile variable poison/anti-elite shooting unit" in the ork codex to totally invalidate the Squigbuggy's role. It's just...hideously overcosted at that role, and one of the three weapon options it has just has no reason to be (bitey squigs, since they basically will never deal as much damage as Booms against any target due to 1/2 the shots).

Unless you perfectly balanced them to be exactly the same offensively and defensively, Dakkajets and BDSWs will always have one invalidating the other. That's why I think the BDSW should be redesigned from the ground up to be either a dedicated close-range horde clearing platform or a midrange anti-elite platform.

I would rather see the former:

-Scrap the -1 to hit rule
-Keep the explode rule
-Add Burna Bombs (melee), same profile as Burna Bombs (Shooting) but without the range. User may make an additional 2D6 attacks with this profile when they make a melee attack.
-Add the rule "Drive-By Dakka: The Big Shoota and Mek Speshul equipped by this model may shoot even if the unit fell back this turn."

I'd like to point out that the explodes rule is actually has a range of d6 - so even if you have a higher chance to explode at all, you are quite likely to not hit anything with the explosion anyways.

 Jidmah wrote:
I'd like to point out that the explodes rule is actually has a range of d6 - so even if you have a higher chance to explode at all, you are quite likely to not hit anything with the explosion anyways.

Yeah, that is counter productive. GW didn't really think that through.

Quick question, does weirboyz benefit from +1/2/3 to dispel aswell?

No. Deny tests aren't Psyker Power Checks, and unfortunately Waagh Energy ain't gonna help you there.

Got a list conundrum:
The rest of my list is set but right now I need to decide between three chunks:

All options contain 3 things:
Infiltration units.
Heavy firepower support.
Escort for my knight hunter biker warboss.
Breakdown:

Kindly people of Dakka, please help me decide which would be best for krumpin' the baddies. Links to discussion and bat reps that have something to do with these points are appreciated!

Here is the core of my list, in case you need it: (note that a lot of details are left out for brevity)


Edited to do spoilers. Sorry!

I want to help you out more, but what will be best for you will depend on how you play. However, just based on which option has the most competitive options, you should go with #1. Smashas are just fantastic AA for the pricetag, and Dakkajets are one of our best options for screen clearing.

 flandarz wrote:
I want to help you out more, but what will be best for you will depend on how you play. However, just based on which option has the most competitive options, you should go with #1. Smashas are just fantastic AA for the pricetag, and Dakkajets are one of our best options for screen clearing.

Option A contains megatrakk scrap jets, not dakka jets. Sprry for the confusion.

Ah. My bad. I still think it's probably your best option to go with. Smashas are just really good.

Yikes played a game tonight and got to experience plaguebearers the durability of plaguebearers for the first time. My opponent basically had plague bearers + thousands son supreme command + deathguard misc units. He managed to win by just swamping the board with plague bearers, tying things up in melee or using the psychic phases to smite them.
My list was something like:


I've basically been dabbling with triple naut and triple SAG but I haven't had a chance to play it against any real threatening lists and this was the first time I hit a wall with it.
My gut says that boyz are the answer to plague bearers but also curious what other people think.
I'm planning to re-work the list massively as it is. The intention behind triple SAG was to try and stack the odds to get more consistent results but I'm not convinced that the extra 160 points is worth it when it could go into something more consistent. Freebooters I'm not 100% certain if I'll keep. I chose them because they're a kultur that scales well and I'm trying to keep my list relatively simple. I'm pro keeping triple nauts because shooting twice with a naut has paid off a lot already. They also lower the model count which assists me with playing faster, which is something I am practising.
Badrukk was just me experimenting in that list, he's been okay so far and has mostly gotten value out of buff Flash Gitz and chipping away at armour.
Flash Gitz are a new addition for me and I've been experimenting with swapping Dakka Jets with Flash Gitz. I'm expecting more space marines to populate my meta and they seemed like a natural choice with their anti-primaris stats. Furthermore they've also done some reasonably good work in the AT role through their sheer volume of fire.

So I guess my general question is how do I deal with plague bearers? Any general list advice?

The discussion on runtherds a few pages back got me curious about the average number of grots you can expect a runtherd to save. For a given number of gretchin in the unit at the start of the turn, and a given number of casualties taken during the turn, the table shows the average reduction in morale losses if there is a runtherd with squighound present (i.e. the average number you expect to lose with no runtherd, minus the average number you expect to lose with the runtherd). Each entry in the table is the result of 1,000,000 simulated rolls.

I only went up to unit sizes of 10, to keep the table readable. It seems clear that a runtherd is never going to be point-efficient if you run gretchin in units of 10, since at most you can expect him to save 2 models from each unit per morale phase. On the other hand, if you run squads of 30 then a runtherd seems like a good investment. If a squad of 30 grots takes 15 casualties, then a runtherd will on average stop 12 of your grots from running away. (Though bear in mind that this is the ideal case - the runtherd is less efficient with more or fewer casualties.)

Do people max out on Squig Bombs for their Tankbustas? Seems like they up the consistency of the unit by crazy amounts, even if they can only fire once (and if bad moons, basically hit 35/36 of the time). Given that Tankbustas likely only survive one round of shooting, seems to be very tempting.

Yeah, I take squigbombs when possible. That 2+ to hit is juicy, and it works with DDD.

Never taken them, i usually have a transport limit problem or i need to shave a few points, and being a 1shot they go first for me.

I play against mainly armies with skimmers which bomb squigs can't target, so I don't really use them. I also don't really use tankbustas atm, smasha gunz are just too good.

 Quackzo wrote:
Yikes played a game tonight and got to experience plaguebearers the durability of plaguebearers for the first time. My opponent basically had plague bearers + thousands son supreme command + deathguard misc units. He managed to win by just swamping the board with plague bearers, tying things up in melee or using the psychic phases to smite them.
My list was something like:

Spoiler:

battalion 1:
Freebooters
weirdboy w/ da jump
badrukk + ammo runt
3x10 gretchin
1x10 flash gitz

battalion 2:
Freebooters
2x SAG
3x10 gretchin

battalion 3:
Freebooters
Dreadwaaagh
1x SUSAG w/ big killa boss
1x biker big mek on warbike
3x10 gretchin
2x Gorkanaut
1x Morkanaut

I've basically been dabbling with triple naut and triple SAG but I haven't had a chance to play it against any real threatening lists and this was the first time I hit a wall with it.
My gut says that boyz are the answer to plague bearers but also curious what other people think.
I'm planning to re-work the list massively as it is. The intention behind triple SAG was to try and stack the odds to get more consistent results but I'm not convinced that the extra 160 points is worth it when it could go into something more consistent. Freebooters I'm not 100% certain if I'll keep. I chose them because they're a kultur that scales well and I'm trying to keep my list relatively simple. I'm pro keeping triple nauts because shooting twice with a naut has paid off a lot already. They also lower the model count which assists me with playing faster, which is something I am practising.
Badrukk was just me experimenting in that list, he's been okay so far and has mostly gotten value out of buff Flash Gitz and chipping away at armour.
Flash Gitz are a new addition for me and I've been experimenting with swapping Dakka Jets with Flash Gitz. I'm expecting more space marines to populate my meta and they seemed like a natural choice with their anti-primaris stats. Furthermore they've also done some reasonably good work in the AT role through their sheer volume of fire.

So I guess my general question is how do I deal with plague bearers? Any general list advice?

I would use your flashgitz to target the plaguebearers instead of armour. You should have enough anti tank with the 3 SAG and morkanaut, but if you don't I think you should maybe drop a couple of SAG for some mek gunz. Mek gunz are great for freebooterz because they can proc the +1 to hit but already hit on 4s.

The 2 damage isn't wasted when shooting models with disgustingly resilient, for each shot that gets past their armour they will need to roll 2 DR and If they fail one the model dies.

tulun wrote:
Do people max out on Squig Bombs for their Tankbustas? Seems like they up the consistency of the unit by crazy amounts, even if they can only fire once (and if bad moons, basically hit 35/36 of the time). Given that Tankbustas likely only survive one round of shooting, seems to be very tempting.

I use two units of 5 tankbustas and 1 bomb in a trukk.

When it comes to Boyz is it just Sluggas and head for melee at all haste or can massed Shoota Boyz be useful? Always loved the gunner models more.

Shootas are actually doing better than Sluggas right now. Capitalizes on Dakkax3 better, and since Boyz are already good in CC, you're not losing out on much. If you're running Goffs and Skarboyz, Sluggas might be better, but otherwise go with Shootas

I don't know. In my recent games against marines, slugga boyz have been way better for me because they can actually clear out a unit of primaris meatshield, while a unit of shoota boyz has no chance of getting past a unit of intercessors or infiltrators.

Assuming you get to fight with 20 boyz, a unit of slugga boyz just barely manages to kill them, a unit of shootas simply wont.

As for scar boyz... I ran three units of 30 scarboyz on sunday, the extra strength did next to nothing. Against most targets, it simply doesn't make a difference (most T5 units get crushed under the weight of attacks) and they still suck at wounding T8 - even with Thrakka and Waaagh! Banner they just barely manage to do 5 damage to a PBC.

Instead of upgrading the three mobs, I should just have fought twice at some point during the game.

So follow-up question. How are the clanky war machines doing?

Ork Dreads, Kans, Nauts, Stompas are all some of my favourite 40k mecha.

In that order? Ok-Bad-Good-Terrible

Dreads work ok as assets you can tellyport in, but you need to properly time that.
KANz simply shoot too little for their costs and moral has a chance to backfire on you.
Both variants of nauts are decent, but you need to tellyport them in. Otherwise they get shot to pieces during your first turn. The Gorkanaut is slightly better due to the synergy between his main gun and his extra attacks it doesn't want to waste on chaff.
Stompa is for when you want to try beating 2000 points with 1400 points.

Quackzo wrote:Yikes played a game tonight and got to experience plaguebearers the durability of plaguebearers for the first time. My opponent basically had plague bearers + thousands son supreme command + deathguard misc units. He managed to win by just swamping the board with plague bearers, tying things up in melee or using the psychic phases to smite them.
My list was something like:

Spoiler:

battalion 1:
Freebooters
weirdboy w/ da jump
badrukk + ammo runt
3x10 gretchin
1x10 flash gitz

battalion 2:
Freebooters
2x SAG
3x10 gretchin

battalion 3:
Freebooters
Dreadwaaagh
1x SUSAG w/ big killa boss
1x biker big mek on warbike
3x10 gretchin
2x Gorkanaut
1x Morkanaut

I've basically been dabbling with triple naut and triple SAG but I haven't had a chance to play it against any real threatening lists and this was the first time I hit a wall with it.
My gut says that boyz are the answer to plague bearers but also curious what other people think.
I'm planning to re-work the list massively as it is. The intention behind triple SAG was to try and stack the odds to get more consistent results but I'm not convinced that the extra 160 points is worth it when it could go into something more consistent. Freebooters I'm not 100% certain if I'll keep. I chose them because they're a kultur that scales well and I'm trying to keep my list relatively simple. I'm pro keeping triple nauts because shooting twice with a naut has paid off a lot already. They also lower the model count which assists me with playing faster, which is something I am practising.
Badrukk was just me experimenting in that list, he's been okay so far and has mostly gotten value out of buff Flash Gitz and chipping away at armour.
Flash Gitz are a new addition for me and I've been experimenting with swapping Dakka Jets with Flash Gitz. I'm expecting more space marines to populate my meta and they seemed like a natural choice with their anti-primaris stats. Furthermore they've also done some reasonably good work in the AT role through their sheer volume of fire.

So I guess my general question is how do I deal with plague bearers? Any general list advice?

I am personally very supportive of this list, I am myself switching back and forth between an almost pure mech freeboterz (30shoota+5*10 grots= 90 models total) and the horde Vercingetorix have posted here (190 models!). Freeboterz NEED the gunz to proc the +1 for the Nauts and the SSAG. So many times you have a single nurglins left or 2 infantry and that smashas is gonna save your ass helping the whole army. I had like 50% of my matches vs those Jim Vesal lists with 60+ PB. Most of the people cant play it. Just focus one unit with all you got and bring it to under 20 models and than charge with the G-naut. 18A S8 D2 is good stuff. Just stay out of range of his casters and let him came at you.
Never tried 3 nauts but i think it is a great thing. dakkajet are really fast but without wazbomb babysitting they go down fast.

Ditters wrote:The discussion on runtherds a few pages back got me curious about the average number of grots you can expect a runtherd to save. For a given number of gretchin in the unit at the start of the turn, and a given number of casualties taken during the turn, the table shows the average reduction in morale losses if there is a runtherd with squighound present (i.e. the average number you expect to lose with no runtherd, minus the average number you expect to lose with the runtherd). Each entry in the table is the result of 1,000,000 simulated rolls.

I only went up to unit sizes of 10, to keep the table readable. It seems clear that a runtherd is never going to be point-efficient if you run gretchin in units of 10, since at most you can expect him to save 2 models from each unit per morale phase. On the other hand, if you run squads of 30 then a runtherd seems like a good investment. If a squad of 30 grots takes 15 casualties, then a runtherd will on average stop 12 of your grots from running away. (Though bear in mind that this is the ideal case - the runtherd is less efficient with more or fewer casualties.)

Thanks for that. I was exactly wondering that.

 Eldarain wrote:
So follow-up question. How are the clanky war machines doing?

Ork Dreads, Kans, Nauts, Stompas are all some of my favourite 40k mecha.

Stompas and kans aren't great, in fact Stompas are considered to be one of the worst units in the book.
Dredds can work if you run Evil Sunz + Trike, deffskullz (with KMB to make the most out of the trait) and/or teleportation.
Nauts work like dredds, but you can probably run the morkanaut without teleportation as it comes with a 5+ invul

My Morkanaut gets degraded into nothingness whenever I deploy it on the board. Unless you want to draw fire from battlewagons or buggies, I suggest reserving it.

I have a crazy thought - Wouldn't Burnas be plausible (I'm not sure if viable is the right word. This is a thought experiment, after all) in a deffskullz list? Not because of their burnas, god no, but because of the KMB and the rerolls? You can have like 3 KMB per squad.

You can just field a mini-mek with a KMB for less with character protection...

 Jidmah wrote:
You can just field a mini-mek with a KMB for less with character protection...

Mini-meks can only have the pistol though, which has a range of 12".
The extra range from a proper KMB is nice.
You can get about 2 shots from a KMB off by the time a KMS gets in range.

They could be MORE viable, but not necessarily a competitive choice, no matter what you do with them.

 flandarz wrote:
Ah. My bad. I still think it's probably your best option to go with. Smashas are just really good.

After debating it and tinkering around, I have decided to do option B,the 3 individual shokkjump dragstas. However, instead of the kommandos and the wrecking ball for my trukk, ill spend the points on 1 unit of 3 smashas.
It reduces me to 13 drops, gives me a hard backline of guns, while still providing an escort for my biker boss that can mop up anything the smashas left after they shoot.

Thank you for your insight.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
You can just field a mini-mek with a KMB for less with character protection...

Mini-meks can only have the pistol though, which has a range of 12".
The extra range from a proper KMB is nice.
You can get about 2 shots from a KMB off by the time a KMS gets in range.

They can take an index KMB. I have one per truck of Boyz with rokkits for re-rollable punch.

So warhammer legends sounds like the deathknell of all the index options.

It’s the final book for them where they get points and rules that will never be updated again.

They are removed from competitive play and basically become narrative only if your opponent agrees.

So say goodbye to warboss on bike, Mek on bike, warboss in mega armor, burnas on kommandos, bombs on deffkoptas, painboy on bike, big Mek with kff and not mega armoir, and big guns... also no idea if the forgeworld stuff that is still in that index is becoming legends or not.

Only real things we'll miss are the KFF Mek and Biker Boss. Fortunately, the Wartrike is only slightly less point efficient, so not a huge deal there (aside from the lack of Killa Klaw), but now all our KFF options are prohibitively expensive.

From 74 big mek to 114. We lost 3 HQ, 2 of the most used ones. They are out of their fething mind

I guess Big Meks will just disappear from games and be replaced with Wazbomms.
Or they will give the MA Big Mek a proper point cost to make him viable.
Or the green tide archetype just dies.

But good thing they at least give points to the legends. One of my criticism in the Big Survey was that all those fun narrative rules are useless because everyone is using points and thus you can't use them even in friendly games.

Had a game vs space wolves a couple of weeks ago. Can't remember exact lists, but roughly:


set up on long board edges. He got first turn. Big guns never tire (d'oh!).

his turn 1 he killed 3 mek guns, getting 4 VP (first strike, 3 heavy supports). rhino & flier moved forward. all focus was on killing the guns for VP.
My turn 1, all rush forwards, big charge on the rhino to get extra distance. shooting pips most of a longfang squad, last guy with lascannon spends VP to become a character. Rhino dies, and the surrounding mob of trukks kills 2 dudes as they try to get out (if I had known better about the method of disembarking I would have positioned my trukks better!). FLashgits do some killing on the flanks to clear his token unit off the objectives (I set up heavy on one side as I am faster than he is!)

His turn 2 sees a trukk blow up, killing his runepriest, 2 wolves, 2 marines, 1 boy and wounding another trukk. lascannons finish off the mek guns and everything else fires at the lootas - Grot shields, deploy! even so 4 lootas die and the 5 remaining grots run off.

My turn 2, the grots who were being charge shields for the mek guns fire some shots at the flier - there's only 13 left - and chip 2 wounds off! Flashgits are still in range so don't move and wipe out the token squad with terminator champion. Meganobs get out and charge the super-shooty dudes, killing 2 before getting mullered in response. the remaining 1 gets made a champion as well with the stratagem - damn that stratagem! Boys in truks kill off all but a terminator champion - guess what? he becomes a lone wolf! - another tukk goes and finishes off the last dude from the longfangs, by standing right next to him and firing a KMB into his face. scrapjet shoots everything (except anti-tank missiles) at the character-who-used-to-have-wolves, chipping 2 wounds off. Then charges and kills him with the ram. He then fights me back (stratagem or something), blows me up and kills off my last meganob! :( gretchin get another wound off the flier!

His turn 3, wolfen dudes walk in off the sidelines. Dudes get out of flier to deal with gretchin, for reasons unknown. not much of mine dies.

My turn 3, wartrike slams into wolfen with the ramming speed strat, killing 3, who then kill him in return, which means I pop the stratagem to fight again, which kills the rest, who would have liked to kill him some more but he was already dead by then. boys move to secure an objective and shoot lots at the terminator and the shooty dude - shooty dude dies. Flashgits move closer and kill the longfangs.

it's 11pm, so game wraps up here. We agree that I would have won, as I had the majority of my army left, and would easily take 3 objectives.


Points I found out:

MSU with deffskulls is a very good combo
Trukks overperformed as he didn't focus on them - it's not that trukks are good, it's that the opponent ignored them.
flashgits in a trukk are pretty ace. turn 1 move to a central ruin, and stay there until the trukk pops and you can loot it (didn't come up this game).
Burnas in the trukk with the Meganobs was decidedly meh, I think they did 1 wound all game. In future I will probably swap them for Tankbustas. I did enjoy the 2-units in a trukk approach. gave the trukk something to do once the MANs-missile had disembarked. also saves a meganob from a roll of a 1 when the trukk dies.
SAG did naff all, all game. Lootas were pretty cool, but I held my CP back for defence rather than popping more dakka on them, so they could be better with more CP to play with.
Invuln! I remembered it in turn 3, until then none of my units used their 6++.

All in all a good, fun game, which I'm chalking up as a draw as I didn't officially win.

Next things to test:

wartrike + walkers. I have so many dreads & kans, and I'm just thinking about the idea of move, advance & charge. Having a unit of 5 killa kans move 7-12", then popping "ramming speed" to roll 3D6 for charge could do a hefty amount of damage. I'd give these skorchas or rokkits for the ability to shoot after advancing and also as they will be in the enemy areas, and 5 skorchas is nothing to sniff at!

Meka-dread could be cool too, with the ability to move 16+D6", then a 3D6" charge. that's back of field territory! 378pts for 2 monsters behind enemy lines on turn 1. That's an average of 30" movement for the meka-dread, without rerolling any charge dice. Da jump something else scary in to increase the pincer manoeuver and away we go!


So to summarise plan: 1/3 of army to be scarily/surprisingly fast & stompy, 1/3 of army to be fast and scary, 1/3 of army to be still & shooty. first 1/3 will get around/behind the enemy, second will pressure them from the front, third will provide covering fire.

List in spoilers or we ll krump ya

Oi, ladz, da blue boy dere is lookin' for a fight. Let me get ma favorite choppa... Waaagh!

(Thanks for the battle report )

 Quackzo wrote:
My gut says that boyz are the answer to plague bearers but also curious what other people think.

Haven't played much vs nurgle but last time I ran into plaguebearer horde from hell 2 mobs of orks and defftrike charaged in. 7 plague bearers survived. Albeit bit of luck as he rolled 1(1 dice rerolled) for morale meaning he got d6 more rolling 6 for that but still 30% chance he survived that morale test with his last daemon.

Bugger hell. Then came in bloodletters...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
I don't know. In my recent games against marines, slugga boyz have been way better for me because they can actually clear out a unit of primaris meatshield, while a unit of shoota boyz has no chance of getting past a unit of intercessors or infiltrators.

Assuming you get to fight with 20 boyz, a unit of slugga boyz just barely manages to kill them, a unit of shootas simply wont.

As for scar boyz... I ran three units of 30 scarboyz on sunday, the extra strength did next to nothing. Against most targets, it simply doesn't make a difference (most T5 units get crushed under the weight of attacks) and they still suck at wounding T8 - even with Thrakka and Waaagh! Banner they just barely manage to do 5 damage to a PBC.

Instead of upgrading the three mobs, I should just have fought twice at some point during the game.

I mix 'em up. 30 boyz I never get to combat fully against semi sane opponent. 20 sluggas yes. Then 10 shootas to shoot at something else. With slugga boys you don't even dare to shoot often least you remove 1 or 2 models pushing your charge range further away anyway and rarely many worthwhile targets anyway.

My paint job kind of prevents mixing :|

Against primaris, I'll always shoot my sluggas, the chances of them killing enough models to increase the charge range is practically zero - you usually have two at them same distance from your boyz, and an extra wound or two on the units really helps.
Against anything less durable (even old marines), I agree.

 Emicrania wrote:
List in spoilers or we ll krump ya

suddenly remembered that about half an hour after posting! edited in now.

Had a little play in battlescribe for a couple of 1250pt armies to try out in a couple of weeks, as 2k is too big for the evening sessions (hence finishing on turn 3 last game!)

List 1:


List 2:


List 1 is about getting the meka-dread and wartrike behind/amongst the enemy turn 1, then mopping up with shoota boys etc.
List 2 is just to overwhelm the enemy with dreads. Mek waddles with them to give KFF cover. deffkilla gives his aura of advance-&-charge. Kans go in first wave, dreads in second.

thoughts?

List 1:
In my experience battle wagon boyz don't work well. You are better off just dropping the two wagons to upgrade both to 30 boyz, jumping one unit and tellyporting the other. Get more toys for the points saved.

List 2:
Make sure to grab the Dread Waaagh! specialist detachment for your army and put rokkits on your kanz. The shoot twice stratagem just barely make kanz useful. Grab the SSAG while you're at it.
If you have the bits, get two KMB on your dreads, you usually only need to re-roll on of the dice anyways, and you can get a lot more damage out of them as they move toward the enemy.
You could also drop a dread to make room for a Waaagh! Banner, he does wonders for walkers.

gungo wrote:
So warhammer legends sounds like the deathknell of all the index options.

It’s the final book for them where they get points and rules that will never be updated again.

They are removed from competitive play and basically become narrative only if your opponent agrees.

So say goodbye to warboss on bike, Mek on bike, warboss in mega armor, burnas on kommandos, bombs on deffkoptas, painboy on bike, big Mek with kff and not mega armoir, and big guns... also no idea if the forgeworld stuff that is still in that index is becoming legends or not.

I will miss the Kustom shoota nobs. Had a lot of fun with these ladz.

 some bloke wrote:
wartrike + walkers. I have so many dreads & kans, and I'm just thinking about the idea of move, advance & charge. Having a unit of 5 killa kans move 7-12", then popping "ramming speed" to roll 3D6 for charge could do a hefty amount of damage.

Tiny, tiny correction: killa kans have the Gretchin keyword, and so you cannot target them with an ork Stratagem (such as Ramming Speed) unless the Stratagem "explicitly states so (e.g. the 'Grot Shields' Stratagem)". The Vigilus Defiant FAQ noted that you could use the "Dread Waaagh!, Kustom Ammo or Mek Connections" Stratagems.

 flandarz wrote:
Only real things we'll miss are the KFF Mek and Biker Boss. Fortunately, the Wartrike is only slightly less point efficient, so not a huge deal there (aside from the lack of Killa Klaw), but now all our KFF options are prohibitively expensive.

Depending on how they do forgeworld zhardsnark might still be allowed (or pushed into legends as well). Which is kinda useful since another issue with the wartrike is it’s waaagh doesn’t work on infantry.

But you are right The biggest concerns are warboss and big Mek options...and making what people consider competitive lists just got a lot more cookie cutter.
I do expect a new character model for us though but I’m sure we will get a ghaz model as our new psychic awakening campaign model.

The other issues such as losing burnas and big choppa on kommandos and big bombs and mega blasta on deffkoptas are just about making those units more point efficient rather then competitive.

They really should make a new Ghaz that could be used also as a normal Warboss with MA and give him a point drop. 122 points for a model with no invu is fething idiotic

Warboss in general needs an overhaul.

I'd love a multipart plastic kit like a LOT of other armies have for their HQ. Doubt they'd give him back the bike since the wartrike exists, but option for MA or possibly Jetpacks would be cool.
Really only need a special bosspole and unique head for Ghaz anyway. Anything beyond that they might as well revamp his rules to be a proper LoW

It'd be pretty strange to actually have a GOOD LoW with Orkz. Might be a good reason to not just run triple Batts.

Kustomstompa was pretty good before........because of a typo but thats another subject lol

Legends - honestly, I will be surprised, if there is no option with warbike boss and megaarmour boss under any kind of name soon.

Megaboss is simpl too cool and forgeworld has a very nice model of motoboss.

There will be new units in form of some CA or whatever or FW Index.

I hope... because i love and use a lot of index option. And orks without cheap kff, kommandos without index option and koptas without bombs are significantly nerfed.

 Emicrania wrote:
They really should make a new Ghaz that could be used also as a normal Warboss with MA and give him a point drop. 122 points for a model with no invu is fething idiotic

That would kind of demerit Ghazz though. Ghazz is supposed to be extraordinarily big for an ork. Suddenly having random warbosses who are same size kind of goes against point of Ghazz...

Especially if they suddenly scale up Ghazz. Having then random nobodies so to speak being equally huge just feels weird.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tomsug wrote:
Legends - honestly, I will be surprised, if there is no option with warbike boss and megaarmour boss under any kind of name soon.

All those will be. In legends. With frozen abilities and point costs forever and not recommended for tournaments(and invariably if tournaments follow that recommendation same will leak into non-tournament games as well)

I play ETC almost exclusively, so index options have been out since codex dropped... And I can tell you that once it gets into the habits that index options are dead, no one wants to have games anymore with these options...
Hopefully some circles are more open, but my suspicion is that for 90% of the playerbase, "legend = dead".
Especially as time will go on and new minis come out. Again, i hope I am wrong about this...

Honestly sell your stuff if you aren't too collector minded (I personally cannot sell stuff I have painted, dunno why really, lots of my stiff nearly never sees TT)

I couldnt imagine running my list without the bigmek kff on bike

It's a bit unfortunate. There are clearly some index options that are just objectively amazing compared to the codex version (e.g... Warboss on bike vs Warboss, Big Mek vs MA Big Mek).

MA Big Mek can't even keep up with your infantry... pretty much makes him useless outside of turn 1 for WAY more points. My Big Mek doesn't need a 2+ save.

As someone said: Wazbom for KFF, unless MA Big Mek takes a huge dip in points? I guess just a walking Warboss for Da Killa Klaw.

It seems crazy there isn't a Warboss in Mega Armour. I can't imagine Ghazz would be the only one to think of it in the entire race.

Oh well.

Did they nerf the caladius tank?

 Emicrania wrote:
Did they nerf the caladius tank?

Yes.

Slightly more expensive, and went to S7.

And D2 instead of 3. They should been nerfed more but ah, whatever

 Emicrania wrote:
And D2 instead of 3. They should been nerfed more but ah, whatever

More points, dropping from S8 to S7 (which is a very key drop-point) and one third less damage...

I dunno, it seems enough to merit more testing, at least. Perhaps they didn't go far enough, but I'd rather a gentle touch than a sledgehammer.

yeah its interesting to see slight nerfs rather than nerfhammers.
Pretty much any gaming company does this. Something underperforms, give it a gentle nudge that after 100x nudges might make it useful. Overperforms? Nerf it to oblivion and return with the gentle nudges later.

Also, it's now...

4/9ths as effective against T8
1/2 as effective against T7
1/3rd as effective against T5 and T6 many-wound models

It is ONLY as effective against:

T1-3, T5 and T6 models with 1, 2, or 4 wounds and no FNP.

Which means It went from meta breaking to broke.

Don't know, it's now just another gun that does the same as everything else in the codex. Before it was something that custodes struggle to get anywhere beside from their jetbikes.

Is pretty resilient, can fly, shoot 60" on 2+ and have 14 W and -2" to charge them. 3 of them are a real pain in the ass.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, it's now...

4/9ths as effective against T8
1/2 as effective against T7
1/3rd as effective against T5 and T6 many-wound models

It is ONLY as effective against:

T1-3, T5 and T6 models with 1, 2, or 4 wounds and no FNP.

My math was wrong-I thought it went from D3 to D2, when it actually went from Dd3 to D2.

All that was affected, in terms of averages, are wound rolls.

The loss of the Warboss on warbike is a huge blow to my tournament list. Not to mention that I Kustom made a model for that purpose :(

You could always "reskin" him as Zhadnark, or as a Wartrike. I used one today in a 1k game and he did surprisingly well. Went Evil Sunz cuz the Wartrike relies on getting as close as possible to the enemy.

Is Zhadsnark worth it? He's even more expensive than the wartrike. Granted he has a PROPER klaw atleast.

Did I miss a point bump? Last I checked, they're both 120 pts.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Is Zhadsnark worth it? He's even more expensive than the wartrike. Granted he has a PROPER klaw atleast.

He locks you into evil suns, doesn't get an attack squig and his aura doesn't work for bikes, so he can't advance and charge. On the other hand, he doesn't need a relic slot to function.
So if you were running evil suns for MANz or boyz anways, he might be an option, otherwise... not so much.

I don't think that a lot of revenues would ban legacy but not FW - from my experience and from what I have heard and read elsewhere, it's either just the codices, or everything with a point value is allowed.

If this becomes ITC standard then I can tell you that it will absolutely destroy most current competitive Ork lists. I have a bunch of friends at NOVA this year, they sent me pictures of the ork armies they have seen and as of yet not a single one of them did not contain a couple of the units/wargear that is now going to be banned from events. Ironically they sent me a picture of the most expensive 2k point army I have ever seen it had 18 Traktor Kannons, none were kustom so that means for just the Mek Guns (800ish points) he spent $900 without tax.

I can tell you that KFF coverage is horribly tedious to obtain in ETC lists, wasbom gets shot down in infantery heavy lists because only vehicle in range (smashas are further away generally), morkanaut also, so really the only kff option is MA big mek... Which is so bad (for reasons previously mentioned in this thread) that if you look at many ETC lists there is no kff at all.
So on some match ups, without proper terrain and without first turn an ork player is likely to take much too high losses turn 1.
It is indeed a higher challenge to play ork without index options... outside of team tournaments not many etc players still do from what I have seen

SemperMortis wrote:
If this becomes ITC standard then I can tell you that it will absolutely destroy most current competitive Ork lists. I have a bunch of friends at NOVA this year, they sent me pictures of the ork armies they have seen and as of yet not a single one of them did not contain a couple of the units/wargear that is now going to be banned from events. Ironically they sent me a picture of the most expensive 2k point army I have ever seen it had 18 Traktor Kannons, none were kustom so that means for just the Mek Guns (800ish points) he spent $900 without tax.

Sure, from business side of view - I really admire how they make a lot of people to buy huge amount of 50 bugs models. And everybody knows, that in less than 6 months, this list will be out and something else became a new meta... I gonna buy there stock to feed my hobby...

We'll just have to find new competitive lists to field, if the current ones won't be valid. Work on new strategies and playstyles that don't need them. We have a pretty solid Codex, so I don't think it's impossible. We'll probably see a drop in W/L for a bit, until we get settled back in, but we're Orkz, boyz! We never lose and we never quit!

 flandarz wrote:
We'll just have to find new competitive lists to field, if the current ones won't be valid. Work on new strategies and playstyles that don't need them. We have a pretty solid Codex, so I don't think it's impossible. We'll probably see a drop in W/L for a bit, until we get settled back in, but we're Orkz, boyz! We never lose and we never quit!

See, I still don't see this as truth. I personally don't think we have a solid codex. In fact I view most of our codex as unplayable in competitive meta and borderline useless even in for fun meta. I love bringing my bikes to games but I had a few players ask me to bring different units because they just die to easy and they get tired of winning turn 3.

I guess I should have clarified: Compared to many Codexes. Something like 40% of our Codex is in our top 2 color brackets on the OP, and only maybe 30% are in the bottom 2 brackets. I don't think that reflects "most of our Codex... borderline useless".

 flandarz wrote:
I guess I should have clarified: Compared to many Codexes. Something like 40% of our Codex is in our top 2 color brackets on the OP, and only maybe 30% are in the bottom 2 brackets. I don't think that reflects "most of our Codex... borderline useless".

And peoples personnel opinions mean exactly nothing. The real guide to see if a unit is good is how often you see it in tournament play. So most of our codex is in fact useless. We have right now a couple units that are used in competitive play and a vast majority which are never used. When was the last time you saw Burna boyz in a tournament that placed in the top 3, what about Warbikes, Deff Koptas, Nobz, Burna bombers, Any of the new buggies, the stompa, killa kanz, deff dreadz, any kind of Battlewagon except for maybe the bonebreaker, mork or gorkanauts, even trukkz, what about nobz? Really what we have is a couple of competitive units and that is about it. we do have a few units which are in the useful in non-competitive games category, a number of the aforementioned units are like that. But again, they never see play time in tournament placing lists.

A couple of competitive units? Just looking at the two lists in the OP from last June, we got (sans Index Options) Weirdboyz, Boyz, SAG, SSAG, Gretchen, Lootas, Tankbustaz, Wazboms, Dakka Jets, Warbosses, Badrukk, Flashgitz, and Mek Gunz. Those are lists that won their tournaments, and neither was a cookie cutter of the other. That's 13 "tournament competitive" units, and is quite aside from anything that would work just fine in a FLGS environment. What you did was list the units that everyone agrees are terrible (with a few thrown in there in the "kinda decent, but you got better options" category) and use it as evidence that "most of the codex is borderline useless".

Edit because I missed one. I could include the April list as well for a couple more units.

SemperMortis wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
I guess I should have clarified: Compared to many Codexes. Something like 40% of our Codex is in our top 2 color brackets on the OP, and only maybe 30% are in the bottom 2 brackets. I don't think that reflects "most of our Codex... borderline useless".

And peoples personnel opinions mean exactly nothing. The real guide to see if a unit is good is how often you see it in tournament play.

The first post reflects the tournament results of the last half year. Anything in the first to brakets has been in a list placing at least 4th place in a grand tournament. Some units from the others have as well.

So most of our codex is in fact useless.

Please provide proof. Feel free to sift through the top ork list of the half year for actual facts.

Deff Koptas

Equipped with both KMB and big shootas, they have been filling brigades for multiple top 4 placements, including one tournament winner.

deff dreadz

At least two 4 placements as well, though the trend has move to nauts and MANz.

mork or gorkanauts

Both have seen lots of play, with the gorkanaut taking the lead. We even have tripple naut lists doing well.

trukkz

Have made an appearance carrying both flash gits and tank bustas.

Really what we have is a couple of competitive units and that is about it.

Even when leaving out everything I'm not 100% sure about, 26 of our 47 codex datasheets have been seen in top 4 placing lists. You are objectively wrong.

But again, they never see play time in tournament placing lists.

Sorry, but I check all top 4 placing lists every week. I don't think you are, because half your post directly contradicts what can be found in those lists.

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
I guess I should have clarified: Compared to many Codexes. Something like 40% of our Codex is in our top 2 color brackets on the OP, and only maybe 30% are in the bottom 2 brackets. I don't think that reflects "most of our Codex... borderline useless".

And peoples personnel opinions mean exactly nothing. The real guide to see if a unit is good is how often you see it in tournament play.

The first post reflects the tournament results of the last half year. Anything in the first to brakets has been in a list placing at least 4th place in a grand tournament. Some units from the others have as well.

So most of our codex is in fact useless.

Please provide proof. Feel free to sift through the top ork list of the half year for actual facts.

Deff Koptas

Equipped with both KMB and big shootas, they have been filling brigades for multiple top 4 placements, including one tournament winner.

deff dreadz

At least two 4 placements as well, though the trend has move to nauts and MANz.

mork or gorkanauts

Both have seen lots of play, with the gorkanaut taking the lead. We even have tripple naut lists doing well.

trukkz

Have made an appearance carrying both flash gits and tank bustas.

Really what we have is a couple of competitive units and that is about it.

Even when leaving out everything I'm not 100% sure about, 26 of our 47 codex datasheets have been seen in top 4 placing lists. You are objectively wrong.

But again, they never see play time in tournament placing lists.

Sorry, but I check all top 4 placing lists every week. I don't think you are, because half your post directly contradicts what can be found in those lists.

Cool story bro, now eliminate tournaments that had less then 30 people in them. Just because a list wins at a local ITC event does not mean it works overall. How did the LVO events go, what lists were used there by the top 2 ork finishes, how about the Nova thats going on right now? How about Adepticon. Sorry I just don't put much weight to small events because a single person can dominate it based on how good they are compared to their competition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And as a note to my post. Probably more important to see them winning in more then a few lists as opposed to 1 or 2. And especially important to see them a bit after the codex release, when the shiny new syndrome wears off and people learned how to counter our new tricks.

We all knew index would eventually go away plus our codex has a few duds but it’s base (troops and hq) are strong.

Losing the index will hurt however we should be getting a new model (which is likely another HQ option like big Mek or warlord) and a bunch of new rules from psychic awakening. I know getting another super SAG from a campaign again is unlikely but maybe something else will get better.

In other words our codex isn’t great but it’s good and if we get another proper pass through as they redo codexs I can see our codex getting better becuase having decent clan rules, troops, hq options, and relics was the hard part. Fixing a bunch of bad speciality units is easier.

I just hope with whatever psychic awakening campaign Orks get involved in that we get a revamped Ghazzy and plastic MAW kit, alongside ideally a regular Big Mek with KFF kit. Have the points costs of things like the deffkilla wartrike and the other buggies tweaked to make them more viable and it makes the loss of index options not as terrible.

If the qualifications for being a good unit are to be a part of a top 3 list in a >30 person tournament in the last 6 months, then yes. The Ork Codex is full of awful units. As is literally every other Codex.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
I guess I should have clarified: Compared to many Codexes. Something like 40% of our Codex is in our top 2 color brackets on the OP, and only maybe 30% are in the bottom 2 brackets. I don't think that reflects "most of our Codex... borderline useless".

And peoples personnel opinions mean exactly nothing. The real guide to see if a unit is good is how often you see it in tournament play.

The first post reflects the tournament results of the last half year. Anything in the first to brakets has been in a list placing at least 4th place in a grand tournament. Some units from the others have as well.

So most of our codex is in fact useless.

Please provide proof. Feel free to sift through the top ork list of the half year for actual facts.

Deff Koptas

Equipped with both KMB and big shootas, they have been filling brigades for multiple top 4 placements, including one tournament winner.

deff dreadz

At least two 4 placements as well, though the trend has move to nauts and MANz.

mork or gorkanauts

Both have seen lots of play, with the gorkanaut taking the lead. We even have tripple naut lists doing well.

trukkz

Have made an appearance carrying both flash gits and tank bustas.

Really what we have is a couple of competitive units and that is about it.

Even when leaving out everything I'm not 100% sure about, 26 of our 47 codex datasheets have been seen in top 4 placing lists. You are objectively wrong.

But again, they never see play time in tournament placing lists.

Sorry, but I check all top 4 placing lists every week. I don't think you are, because half your post directly contradicts what can be found in those lists.

Cool story bro, now eliminate tournaments that had less then 30 people in them. Just because a list wins at a local ITC event does not mean it works overall. How did the LVO events go, what lists were used there by the top 2 ork finishes, how about the Nova thats going on right now? How about Adepticon. Sorry I just don't put much weight to small events because a single person can dominate it based on how good they are compared to their competition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And as a note to my post. Probably more important to see them winning in more then a few lists as opposed to 1 or 2. And especially important to see them a bit after the codex release, when the shiny new syndrome wears off and people learned how to counter our new tricks.

While I absolutely think that there is more skill involved in playing good 40k than people often attribute to the game, list building is a huge bottleneck regardless of skill. The nature of the game is such that even the best players, when given garbage units, aren't going to be able to carry a bad list through match-ups with optimized lists. So I don't really think it's fair to just dismiss lists with flash gitz or deff dreads or trukks because they don't have multiple tournament wins or havent appeared at a major yet. The mere presence of these units performing effectively in winning lists proves to me that a good player can find real success with them, showing that they are usable and competitive. You are making it sound like because these lists or units werent at LVO or adepticon, they are only viable in local events with big skill gaps and when put to the true major tournament test they failed to measure up. Maybe these units didnt place because not a lot of people were even running them or a list like them at a major? You would have to look through every single ork list at these events and see which units appeared how many times and what the win rate for each one was, and eliminate the lists that were clearly just brought for fluff and fun. If you did that and saw flash gitz or trukks showing up in a ton of lists but always faring poorly, that says a lot more about their viability than seeing that they showed up in no lists at all. The former shows that even when people attempt to use these units effectively in a competitive environment, they fail to measure up. The latter just shows that not a lot of people were interested in trying them out. Now, that could be because they are so obviously useless that there's no point in running them, or it could be that everyone was thinking too "in-meta" to realize a situation where these units could actually be really useful.

SemperMortis wrote:
Cool story bro, now eliminate tournaments that had less then 30 people in them. Just because a list wins at a local ITC event does not mean it works overall. How did the LVO events go, what lists were used there by the top 2 ork finishes, how about the Nova thats going on right now? How about Adepticon. Sorry I just don't put much weight to small events because a single person can dominate it based on how good they are compared to their competition.

I'm exclusively referring to grand tournaments which get summarized by panda every week to which I have provided multiple links and summaries of notable unit inclusions over the last weeks.
None of those tournaments have less than 32 players, the vast majority have 50+

Facts not matching your bias is NOT a reason to be impolite, bro.

And as a note to my post. Probably more important to see them winning in more then a few lists as opposed to 1 or 2. And especially important to see them a bit after the codex release, when the shiny new syndrome wears off and people learned how to counter our new tricks.

No semper, if you want to prove your point,you go provide the facts. Go through the lists and collect the data for whatever theories you have come up.

As it stands, you are wrong. The majority of our units have been in grand tournament winning lists, and are therefore competitive.

Just to steer the topic a bit,

What will change in your lists when the index is dropped?

I like the versatility that the index provided so I still use plenty of options from it.

As DSkull I will need to replace:
- Bikerboss
- mini meks with kmb
- rokkits from my trucks (this really sucks)
- koptas. I will need to find a way to redefine their use. No kmb and no boom hurts.

Also komandos loose their burnas (although I never play them).
What else?

No more KMB's for killa kans. cheaper & better than rokkits, big shame.

The other biker characters also go. I have a pain boy on a bike, but I guess he could also just be a nob biker with a killsaw. He joins the Waaagh! Banner on a bike to be a regular useless nob biker now.

Big guns and old buggies are gone, but the saw little play anyways.

Dreads can no longer have 4 klaw for some stupid reason (bottom arms must be saws), kanz lose their KMBs.

Battlewagons and trukks lose their rokkits,

Nobz lose shootas and kustom shootas (even those leading shoota boyz), nob bikers also lose kustom-skorcha and kustom-rokkit.

Tankbusta nob loses all options, must have rokkit now.

Kommandoz basically lose all options, their nob is locked into a PK now.

Spannas lose kustom mega slugga and kombi weapons.

Mini mek is even more useless since he is limited to a kustom mega slugga now.

I knew this was going to happen. GW wouldn't let Index options be a thing forever. If they had intended you to keep using those options they would have kept them in the codex.

 Emicrania wrote:
And I just checked and there is maybe 1 or 2 major with 60 or more people, where orks didn't came top 4.
Just mute him. He's a troll full of BS

Are you sure HE'S the troll full of BS?

Here's a list of every major with more than 60 people that didn't have an Ork list in the top 4;

LVO
Prague Open
Barrie Bash
Games of Westeros VI
Dallas Open
Broadside Bash
Big Bristol GT
Warzone Gigabytes
Wet Coast GT
St George Champions
Barnyard Brawl
Fantasia 35
Canadian Tabletop Champs
Alamo GT
Caledonian Mayhem
Midwest Conquest
BAO
Terracon
Beef and Wing Brawl
Slagcon
Carolina Crusade
Flying Monkey Con
Caledonian Revolution
TGX - Tabletop Gaming Expo
Show-me Showdown
Battle in the Warp
BWG: Summer Slaughter
TSHFT
Battle in the Bush

Here's those majors with more than 60 people that did have an Ork list in the top 4;

Desperate Allies GT
Adepticon
Briscon
Storm of Silence
Warzone Atomic Empire
Gentleman's GT
Boise Cup
Warzone Houston
Wintercon
Slaughterfest
Summerslam GT
Siegeworld 2019
Capital City Bloodbath
WarGamesCon XI
Nova Open

Now I'm no mathematician, but I'm pretty sure that the massive list above is a little more than "1 or 2". In fact, it looks like we didn't finish in the top 4 at major events a lot more frequently than we did.

Of the 44 events with more than 60 people we finished in the top 4 exactly 15 times.

Of those times we finished in the top 4 at those events with more than 60 people we finished first 3 times, second 3 times, third 7 times and fourth 3 times.

Almost like we don't perform as well at larger events right? As I was saying a few pages back.

Semper - I wouldn't waste your breath in here. This thread has become an echo chamber where the participants don't want to actually discuss our faction outside of their beliefs that Orks are the best faction competitively and they will oppose any contrary evidence to this with misdirection, strawmans and ad hominems.

The data gets more interesting when we look at the specific units taken in competitive lists. Index units feature very, very frequently and we can see how lists adapted from the nerfing of mob up with a massive reduction in Meganobz and Loota (obviously) usage, and a greater reliance on more Mek Guns.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I knew this was going to happen. GW wouldn't let Index options be a thing forever. If they had intended you to keep using those options they would have kept them in the codex.

That maybe so, still it hurts.

I am very reluctant to play hordes of boys on foot, never really enjoyed it. The only alternative I found are (a) use only grot (b) 11 Dskulls boys with shootas (1 rokkit) with a minimek with kmb in a rokkit truck.

I enjoyed option (b) quite a lot and after indexes are out, I sincerely don't know how to play boys anymore. Rokkit from the truck, gone. Minimek, gone. The unit looses a LOT of punch.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
The other biker characters also go. I have a pain boy on a bike, but I guess he could also just be a nob biker with a killsaw. He joins the Waaagh! Banner on a bike to be a regular useless nob biker now.

Nobz lose shootas and kustom shootas (even those leading shoota boyz), nob bikers also lose kustom-skorcha and kustom-rokkit

I am in a similar situation regarding my nob bikers (demoted characters). Some with "illegal" WYSIWII

Appreciate the effort englishman. To add to your post, here are the lists from the last few Ork wins we have had.

Bad Moon GT:


Nova Open:


WargamesCon:



CCBB:


Siegeworld:




Hammer Of Wrath:



Gencon:



SummerSlam:



I am seeing a lot of very, very similar lists with only a few slight changes. I'll do a breakdown if I get some time.

I never claimed that Orkz have the best Codex. I just take askance with statements like "Orkz only have 1 or 2 good units" and "most of the Codex is borderline useless, even in casual". Because it's, frankly, untrue. I count 16 different Codex units in the lists posted above, and while many of the lists feature the same units (Gretchin, SAG, Warboss, Mek Gunz), there's a few variations that would change up how a list is run (Flashgitz instead of Lootas, for example).

Again, I'm of a mind that we have a decent Codex, atlesst compared to the other Codexes. You act like EVERY Codex doesn't only have a few viable tournament builds, and that only lists built to win tournaments contain units that are "good". If I'm playing at my FLGS, I don't need the "top list" to be able to compete. I can take "decent" options and still do just fine.

Edit: TLDR; in comparison with other Codexes, Orkz are still perfectly viable and competitive.

 flandarz wrote:
I never claimed that Orkz have the best Codex. I just take askance with statements like "Orkz only have 1 or 2 good units" and "most of the Codex is borderline useless, even in casual". Because it's, frankly, untrue. I count 16 different Codex units in the lists posted above, and while many of the lists feature the same units (Gretchin, SAG, Warboss, Mek Gunz), there's a few variations that would change up how a list is run (Flashgitz instead of Lootas, for example).

Again, I'm of a mind that we have a decent Codex, atlesst compared to the other Codexes. You act like EVERY Codex doesn't only have a few viable tournament builds, and that only lists built to win tournaments contain units that are "good". If I'm playing at my FLGS, I don't need the "top list" to be able to compete. I can take "decent" options and still do just fine.

Edit: TLDR; in comparison with other Codexes, Orkz are still perfectly viable and competitive.

I had the entire unit breakdown including points written out and we lost power and the backup save was so far back it wasn't worth my time to redo the list.

Of those 8 lists you see a HEAVY reliance on HQs and Grotz to feed CP into the ork list. There were 3 units that do VERY similar jobs that were then buffed to hell with CP to make them decent. Lootas, Tankbustas and Flashgitz with a much heavier reliance on Lootas and Bustas then Flashgitz. There were something like 20 units listed but a large number of those were only seen in a very small proportion of the lists (2 or 3 at most, some only had 1 entry). The vast majority of the lists had the exact same built and or play style.

Now I will agree with you that most codex's only have a top list or two.

Funny how we don't see Trukkz, morkanautz, gorkanautz, dreadz, or deff koptaz in any of the recent 8 placing lists from the month of August. My belief is that now that hte codex isn't new, people aren't using those units because they are easily countered or there are a lot better alternatives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And to add more to englishman's post. Almost every single list (I don't want to look again) featured Index only units, most notably the Big Mek KFF and the Warboss on warbike.

You are the 3rd Commander in the room. ctrl+f and see which codex have more top 4´s. Than might just be that you are bad players? Ever considered that?
Stop posting altogether please. Or do post tactical related post or just go towards the nursery so you can cry as much as you want.

It's important to bear in mind that just because a unit isn't in a winning tournament list doesn't mean it's bad. Tournament lists tend to only field the most competitive units and options. As an example, it's not that a Wartrike is a bad unit, but rather that the Biker Boss was a better unit. It's not that Gork and Morks are bad units, but that there are more competitive options to take for the points.

 Emicrania wrote:

Spoiler:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
And I just checked and there is maybe 1 or 2 major with 60 or more people, where orks didn't came top 4.
Just mute him. He's a troll full of BS

Are you sure HE'S the troll full of BS?

Here's a list of every major with more than 60 people that didn't have an Ork list in the top 4;

LVO
Prague Open
Barrie Bash
Games of Westeros VI
Dallas Open
Broadside Bash
Big Bristol GT
Warzone Gigabytes
Wet Coast GT
St George Champions
Barnyard Brawl
Fantasia 35
Canadian Tabletop Champs
Alamo GT
Caledonian Mayhem
Midwest Conquest
BAO
Terracon
Beef and Wing Brawl
Slagcon
Carolina Crusade
Flying Monkey Con
Caledonian Revolution
TGX - Tabletop Gaming Expo
Show-me Showdown
Battle in the Warp
BWG: Summer Slaughter
TSHFT
Battle in the Bush

Here's those majors with more than 60 people that did have an Ork list in the top 4;

Desperate Allies GT
Adepticon
Briscon
Storm of Silence
Warzone Atomic Empire
Gentleman's GT
Boise Cup
Warzone Houston
Wintercon
Slaughterfest
Summerslam GT
Siegeworld 2019
Capital City Bloodbath
WarGamesCon XI
Nova Open

Now I'm no mathematician, but I'm pretty sure that the massive list above is a little more than "1 or 2". In fact, it looks like we didn't finish in the top 4 at major events a lot more frequently than we did.

Of the 44 events with more than 60 people we finished in the top 4 exactly 15 times.

Of those times we finished in the top 4 at those events with more than 60 people we finished first 3 times, second 3 times, third 7 times and fourth 3 times.

Almost like we don't perform as well at larger events right? As I was saying a few pages back.

Semper - I wouldn't waste your breath in here. This thread has become an echo chamber where the participants don't want to actually discuss our faction outside of their beliefs that Orks are the best faction competitively and they will oppose any contrary evidence to this with misdirection, strawmans and ad hominems.

The data gets more interesting when we look at the specific units taken in competitive lists. Index units feature very, very frequently and we can see how lists adapted from the nerfing of mob up with a massive reduction in Meganobz and Loota (obviously) usage, and a greater reliance on more Mek Guns.

You are the 3rd Commander in the room. ctrl+f and see which codex have more top 4´s. Than might just be that you are bad players? Ever considered that?
Stop posting altogether please. Or do post tactical related post or just go towards the nursery so you can cry as much as you want.

See Semper? Ad Hominems and personal attacks.

Emicrania you lied. And your lie was a poor one, because it was so easy to prove false. Now I'm not sure why you're lying about these results, why you want it to seem like Orks are performing better than they are, but it's very odd and I'd suggest you stop.

SemperMortis wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And to add more to englishman's post. Almost every single list (I don't want to look again) featured Index only units, most notably the Big Mek KFF and the Warboss on warbike.

100% this. I think every list I looked at had an index option. Literally every list. Big Meks in Mega Armour aren't taken. Nor are warbosses on foot, in the main. It also seems as though certain builds rely on these index options to function effectively.

Or that, in a competitive environment, you're gonna choose the most competitive option. Which, as I stated above, doesn't necessarily mean that the options you didn't take are bad, but rather that they aren't "as good".

 flandarz wrote:
Or that, in a competitive environment, you're gonna choose the most competitive option. Which, as I stated above, doesn't necessarily mean that the options you didn't take are bad, but rather that they aren't "as good".

You're gonna have to give some context for this, I'm not sure who or what you're responding to?

It also seems as though certain builds rely on these index options to function effectively.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
Or that, in a competitive environment, you're gonna choose the most competitive option. Which, as I stated above, doesn't necessarily mean that the options you didn't take are bad, but rather that they aren't "as good".

You're gonna have to give some context for this, I'm not sure who or what you're responding to?

Not the best=/=bad.

If I have one unit that's good for tournaments at 300 points, and there's a second, identical unit that's 305 points, I'll take the 300 point unit every time. Does that less than 2% difference make the unit awful, no-good, suitable only for the trash heap? No. Not at all.

Likewise, just because a unit does not appear in a Grand Tournament winning list, doesn't make it bad.

 flandarz wrote:
Or that, in a competitive environment, you're gonna choose the most competitive option. Which, as I stated above, doesn't necessarily mean that the options you didn't take are bad, but rather that they aren't "as good".

Given your now provided context it looks as though you misunderstand me.

The lists seem rely on a cheap, Mek-shaped KFF and a Warboss on Warbike to function. We're not talking about a small points difference here just to get the most optimum possible build, the standard Mek with KFF is 75pts base, the Mega Mek with KFF is 119 pts base which is a 59% increase. It's also slower. There's no unit that is equivalent to the Biker Boss. There is no equivalent to the Biker Mek that also featured in certain builds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Not the best=/=bad.

If I have one unit that's good for tournaments at 300 points, and there's a second, identical unit that's 305 points, I'll take the 300 point unit every time. Does that less than 2% difference make the unit awful, no-good, suitable only for the trash heap? No. Not at all.

Likewise, just because a unit does not appear in a Grand Tournament winning list, doesn't make it bad.

But if a unit used in your competitive list becomes unavailable and is replaced by an objectively worse unit that fulfils a similar role, your competitive list has just become worse overall. If you do this for multiple units your list becomes significantly worse.

I'd say the Wartrike is fairly equivalent to the Biker Boss, or even just a bog-standard Warboss thrown in with Da Jump.

But, yeah. Obviously the loss of Index units is gonna take some finagling to figure out how to field competitive builds without them. Fortunately, all the other Factions have to figure it out too. Also fortunate that, for the most part, we only got to figure out how to replace the Biker Boss and the KFF Mek effectively.

My main point being: this isn't a huge blow to our armies and we have the tools to build competitive lists without Index options.

SemperMortis wrote:
Of those 8 lists you see a HEAVY reliance on HQs and Grotz to feed CP into the ork list. There were 3 units that do VERY similar jobs that were then buffed to hell with CP to make them decent. Lootas, Tankbustas and Flashgitz with a much heavier reliance on Lootas and Bustas then Flashgitz. There were something like 20 units listed but a large number of those were only seen in a very small proportion of the lists (2 or 3 at most, some only had 1 entry). The vast majority of the lists had the exact same built and or play style.

I don't know what you were expecting though. Having cheap CP to funnel into decent options is pretty much the very definition of a competitive codex in 8th edition. Having solid units that pull their own weight is not something that's happening a lot right now.
That orks rely too much on stratagems to make their army work is a true and justified complaint - but has nothing to do with how competitive they are.

Funny how we don't see Trukkz, morkanautz, gorkanautz, dreadz, or deff koptaz in any of the recent 8 placing lists from the month of August.

The last meta shake-up was when the big FAQ axed the castellan and removed mobbed up lootas, you'd at least have to go back until then.
Both a kopta and the tripple naut list are in the first post of this thread, I can't find the list with the flash gits trukk right now, but you might find it yourself.

My belief is that now that hte codex isn't new, people aren't using those units because they are easily countered or there are a lot better alternatives.

Even if there is a better alternative, that doesn't mean that the other one is not competitive. Prime example of this would be dreads. Right now people are using Gorkanauts exactly as they are were using dreads before because of their superior firepower and because you have only one ramming speed stratagem. This doesn't mean that dreads are trash tier.

And to add more to englishman's post. Almost every single list (I don't want to look again) featured Index only units, most notably the Big Mek KFF and the Warboss on warbike.

Some lists skip the KFF mek, but the biker warboss is a must take. That doesn't mean that orks won't survive the index units leaving, because as you have correctly concluded, the majority of our power comes from shooting units kicked into overdrive through gretchin CP, backed up by efficient and powerful guns like smashas and the wazzbom and the utility of tellyporta and da jump. All of that is staying.

For me the loss of the biker big mek with kff was a crippling blow when codex dropped, even more so than the biker boss. Because he could keep up with boyz charging or other fast stuff.
Honestly the wartrike doesn’t hold against biker boss because strengh 7 vs strengh 10. Watrike doesn’t do jack s... against toughness 8 armoured targets for instance... So I can see why for some of you losing bike boss is even worse than kff on bike.
Mini meks losing kmb is so stupid...
Arf... you “non ETC guys” (because ETC has meant no INdex options for over a year now) will soon see that it is far worse than you think hah hah. Of course some lists still work but, but you will be even more locked into a few builds.
However I think next CA will see huge point drops for FA choices, as well as slight point drops for other of our machines. The new primaris transport may mean a good point drop for our beloved trukks and BWs.
In GW we trust (hah hah).
I also think that those of you who don’t have much love for our mandatory CP feeding 60 gretchins should try those 10 base movement trays. Makes fielding these dudes so much easier...
I still would never want to field 100 of them though.
What is frustrating atm is that units like dakka jets and scrapjets (nauts ans even perhaps trukks too) just need like 15 point drops to become completely tourney worthy. So we are not that far from unlocking vehicle heavy builds. ATM they just “don’t quite cut it”. But GW is just this close... so fingers crossed for next CA. New SM being a such a tough match up might help us get CA point drops too

I love my Scrapjets, i field them as often as I can in my friendly games. But they are a lot more then 15pts off from being competitive. They are in a weird spot right now because at the moment they don't stay in a squadron so when you deploy them they become independent units which has its upsides (Damage doesn't carry over) and its downsides (You can't buff all 3 with Strats). At the moment the scrapjets I play with have 1 massive drawback, they are unreliable at best and completely paper thin on defense. T6 with a 4+ save just means it takes a bit more to kill then say a Trukk. As for damage output, the scrapjet falls into the same problem as all ork units/vehicles, BS5+. The Rokkit Kannon amounts to 4 shots so usually 1 hit, but its 1.33 on average. the wing missile is a 50/50 against vehicles, so you have 1.8 hits with Rokkitz a turn....not exactly amazing for a unit that costs 110pts, you can get 6-7 tankbustas for the same price which put out more rokkitz with a reroll against vehicles. You also get 6 BS4 Big shoota shots and 6 BS5 big shoota shots. Again, not worth much. If you really wanted to make the scrapjets worth taking, bump them to BS4, give them a git finda or something, and reduce the price to 100pts, then they would become competitive, but as of right now, 1.8 rokkit hits a turn and 12 Big shoota shots isn't frightening, and while getting into CC is useful for the Scrapjets, you don't want them in CC because then those weapons are wasted and for some god awful reason, the scrapjet hits on 4s instead of 3s.

And Jidmah, I know the last FAQ nerfed a lot of things and changed the game play, but that is the point, I am judging us by how we currently are, not how we were back then. On top of that, the loota bomb was just a prime example of how shoddy our codex was written that we require Stratagems to make subpar units competitive. The biggest boon to orkz during that golden era was the fact that we relied upon weight of dice and having rerolls and shoot again strats benefited our guns greatly. Having 25 lootas dump 50 shots which explode on 5s and 6s, reroll 1s and then getting to shoot again was just amazing. I loved hosing down Tau players hiding in their gunline


And to everyone saying "Just take a Wartrike instead" ....Nobody was taking the warboss for mobile Waaaghing ability, they were taking him as a delivery system for the relic PK which was devastating to vehicles and super heavies. My opponent once ignored my warboss on warbike during a finals game and instead dumped his shooting into my Boyz, only to have my warboss charge his gunline and single handed kill 3 of his vehicles in 2 successive CC phases.

If that's what you're looking for in a Biker Boss, the Warboss can do the same thing with a Da Jump delivery system. Run some Dakka Jets up to clear the chaff, then Da Jump the Warboss in to deal with the vehicles. Cheaper too.

Point is: it'll take some finagling, but we can utilize the same things we have been doing. We just need to do them in a different manner.

 flandarz wrote:
If that's what you're looking for in a Biker Boss, the Warboss can do the same thing with a Da Jump delivery system. Run some Dakka Jets up to clear the chaff, then Da Jump the Warboss in to deal with the vehicles. Cheaper too.

Point is: it'll take some finagling, but we can utilize the same things we have been doing. We just need to do them in a different manner.

ive been using my "Da Jump" to deliver mobs of boyz where they are needed. And if you deep strike a warboss and he fails his charge....well, you just handed the enemy your warlord, not exactly worth the risk.

To be fair, if you move a Biker Boss up the board and he fails his charge, you just did the same thing.

 flandarz wrote:
To be fair, if you move a Biker Boss up the board and he fails his charge, you just did the same thing.

True, but when he is a Evil Sunz warboss its fairly hard to fail a charge, especially with a 15' movement, a D6+1 advance and a 2D6 +1 charge with rerolls. You are looking at on average a threat range of 27' I would say that on average you are less likely to fail that charge then the deep striking 8' charge

Really depends on deployment. If your opponent deploys his armor to the opposite corner from your Boss, it'll easily take 2 turns to get to them. Even directly across, and with deploying right on the edge of the deployment zone, you're generally only getting 3" into their deployment zone after the charge. Not really that reliable against any savvy opponent who knows what a Killa Klaw Biker Boss can do. Though, I think he can use Ramming Speed, so that certainly opens up some options.

Still, point is that we have a replacement for the suicide Titan killer, though he's certainly less competitive at it (though it's also less of a blow to your army if he gets killed, since he's something like 30 pts cheaper).

HI all.
I just buyed Deffkilla Wartrike and want start collecting orks in 40k (allready have 5k points IJ in AOS). What units from speed freeks are playable now? And what about kans, dreads and mega nobz?

Are there any rumors about new models for boyz/lootaz/nobz/bikers now?

 flandarz wrote:
If that's what you're looking for in a Biker Boss, the Warboss can do the same thing with a Da Jump delivery system. Run some Dakka Jets up to clear the chaff, then Da Jump the Warboss in to deal with the vehicles. Cheaper too.

Point is: it'll take some finagling, but we can utilize the same things we have been doing. We just need to do them in a different manner.

So the 30 pts we saved from taking a footboss we lost through having to take more dakkajets to clear chaff? Dakkajets are nowhere as efficient at clearing chaff as 30 jumped boys either.

You see why this is an issue yea?

I don't think it's the end of the world, we'll still have competitive lists but those lists are going to be much more limited in variety and worse than the equivalent list before the index neutering. Though it affects all factions, its pretty obvious that Orks by far relied on the most index units in top tier competitive lists.

If you're running evil sunz what's the harm in taking the named version of the biker boss? Being forgeworld index I'm assuming he is still going to be tournament viable.
Then you can put the relic klaw on a foot boss and you've got the ability to dajump and charge across the field.

Thayme wrote:
If you're running evil sunz what's the harm in taking the named version of the biker boss? Being forgeworld index I'm assuming he is still going to be tournament viable.
Then you can put the relic klaw on a foot boss and you've got the ability to dajump and charge across the field.

Chances are that he ends up in Legends aswell as other FW units and lists.

Ran a dreadmob vs Primaris Space Wolves, Battle Report Here (with the lists in spoilers ).

Won the game, but in fairness he had tailored against infantry and I brought dreads, so he was on the back foot from the off.

Lessons I learnt:
Deff dreads with 2 KMB and deffskulls are good, they hunt armour well in both CC and shooting. I'd want at least 2-3 though.
SSAG is mega. It rolled well, but daaaamn it killed a lot! last game the regular SAG killed nothing. well worth it's points!
Tailoring is bad!

Warboss Marc Parker has placed third at nova on Saturday:
https://www.40kstats.com/novaopen

I thought it interesting that the biker boss was the only index option he fielded besides the nobz shootas (because, why wouldn't you want free shootas?).

 flandarz wrote:
Really depends on deployment. If your opponent deploys his armor to the opposite corner from your Boss, it'll easily take 2 turns to get to them. Even directly across, and with deploying right on the edge of the deployment zone, you're generally only getting 3" into their deployment zone after the charge. Not really that reliable against any savvy opponent who knows what a Killa Klaw Biker Boss can do. Though, I think he can use Ramming Speed, so that certainly opens up some options.

Still, point is that we have a replacement for the suicide Titan killer, though he's certainly less competitive at it (though it's also less of a blow to your army if he gets killed, since he's something like 30 pts cheaper).

I agree with semper here though. A biker warboss can usually set up an almost guaranteed charge by turn 2 or 3, while a deep striking warboss is always a gamble that backfires one out of five games. I also don't see why I wouldn't just use tank bustas for that job instead.


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ImperialDwarf wrote:
HI all.
I just buyed Deffkilla Wartrike and want start collecting orks in 40k (allready have 5k points IJ in AOS). What units from speed freeks are playable now? And what about kans, dreads and mega nobz?

Depends of the competitiveness of your meta really. In highly competitive metagames, almost all speed freaks are too inefficient to compete.
The shokk jump dragsta, kustom bosta blasta and the scrapjet all do what they are supposed to squig buggy and the boomdakka snazzwagon are bad. Biker mobs die too easily for their costs, and don't have enough punch in combat, but their shooting is ok-ish.
Kanz are really bad right now, to a point where I would avoid buying them unless you get a really good deal.
Both dreads and MANz are decent if you tellyport or jump them, but don't expect them to survive walking up the board.

Are there any rumors about new models for boyz/lootaz/nobz/bikers now?

The only active rumors are these: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/779347.page (Thrakka + X)

I highly doubt that any of the four boxes will get new models any time soon. From a business standpoint I doubt that GW would replace well-selling box like that when the vast majority of ork players almost certainly wouldn't update their armies. They also just repackaged all of them with new bases, so they are probably going to hang around for another decade or so.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

So the 30 pts we saved from taking a footboss we lost through having to take more dakkajets to clear chaff? Dakkajets are nowhere as efficient at clearing chaff as 30 jumped boys either.

You see why this is an issue yea?

I don't think it's the end of the world, we'll still have competitive lists but those lists are going to be much more limited in variety and worse than the equivalent list before the index neutering. Though it affects all factions, its pretty obvious that Orks by far relied on the most index units in top tier competitive lists.

Are they? 2 DJs, with full Supa Shootaz, have 36 shots between them, while a full mob of Shoota Boyz have 60 shots, and cost 40 more points than the Boyz. The Boyz will, on average, land 23 hits (with Bad Moonz, and DDD), while the Jets will land 24 (after All Da Dakka, Bad Moonz, and DDD). And the DJs have a better Strength profile, allowing for more reliable wounding against T3-T6, and AP which make Saves less of an issue. Doesn't seem "nowhere near as efficient" to me, at least until you get to the Charge Phase and the Boyz are able to put their Choppas to good use. But against T3 with a 6+ Save, DJs will still reliably clear a 20 model chaff unit, which is really all you're trying to do anyway.

Alternatively, ditch the DJ and Da Jump your Boyz T1, then Da Jump the Boss on T2, after the chaff has cleared, since that's generally when your Biker Boss would have been making his charge anyway.

 Jidmah wrote:

I agree with semper here though. A biker warboss can usually set up an almost guaranteed charge by turn 2 or 3, while a deep striking warboss is always a gamble that backfires one out of five games. I also don't see why I wouldn't just use tank bustas for that job instead.

That's fair. Honestly, I ain't really been using the Biker Boss anyway, since the SSAG and a contingent of Smashas will generally get the same job done without risking my Warlord. I was mainly just throwing out ideas for people who might be like "but all I know how to play is a Killa Klaw and can't think of any alternative to this!"

The biker warboss is never my warlord though, and his job isn't smashing titans and he usually dies after fighting once or twice.

Killa klaw + attack squig + dakka guns + shoota are plenty to assassinate most characters, grind through a unit of primaris, smash a daemon prince or finish off a vehicle.
People also dance around him like stupid when you mention the "orks is never beaten" stratagem while he is in the middle of their army because they want to avoid getting the klaw again. He has broken up entire UM castles that way.

 Quackzo wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
No one takes Gretchin for their damage potential. They have 3 main uses.

1) they generate CP on the cheap. If you want to use Stratagems, you need Gretchin, plain and simple.

2) they protect more powerful units with Grot Shields. Spending 1 CP for 10+ ablative Wounds is a steal, especially considering how flimsy most Ork units are.

3) they can sit on Objectives. They're so weak and pathetic, there's no real cost efficient way to take them out. You'll always feel like you wasted your weapon's or unit's potential by having to focus on these buggers.


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I forgot about Deepstrike Denial, which kind of ties into point #3. If your opponent wants to drop something in your backfield, Gretchin can cover a lot of ground, are cheap, and (as I said) make your opponent wish he could shoot at something more dangerous.

Sorry I should have clarified, I was referring to units of 20-30 like in Steven Pampreen's and Charles Velazquez's lists in Panda's run down.
Using MSU units of 10 makes a lot of a sense but I'm curious what the benefit of going over 20 in a unit is and how people are running them.

It means I can screen with a single unit that I can da jump out of danger rather than getting two units of grots trapped. Also, I'm just finding that 30 grots lets me hold space better and I have like 300 of the little guys painted so mine as well go nuts.

Dakkajet vs shoota boyz - that' s interesting topic, because it' s not just about the stats. It' s about tactics. Hard-to-hit flyier starting out of range of most of the weapons moving 60” is very flexible and gives you 1.turn 100% dakka. Well, Da Jumped boyz also, but you can' t have 2 of them and they have to be 9” away (problem with LOS) Dakkajet is something that gives you the chance to have 30 boyz AND dakkajet shooting 100% turn 1, which is more than solid screen cleaning firepower. And what about the boyz and 2 dakkajets....


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It means I can screen with a single unit that I can da jump out of danger rather than getting two units of grots trapped. Also, I'm just finding that 30 grots lets me hold space better and I have like 300 of the little guys painted so mine as well go nuts.

@Jid: again, fair point. And, again, just showing an option for people who still want to do that in a post-Index world.

@Tom: I think whether you take Boyz or Jets is gonna depend on the kind of list you're building. Boyz work really well in infantry heavy lists, but fizzle if you put them with mostly mechanized (generally even if you put them in something first). Jets are the opposite.

 flandarz wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

So the 30 pts we saved from taking a footboss we lost through having to take more dakkajets to clear chaff? Dakkajets are nowhere as efficient at clearing chaff as 30 jumped boys either.

You see why this is an issue yea?

I don't think it's the end of the world, we'll still have competitive lists but those lists are going to be much more limited in variety and worse than the equivalent list before the index neutering. Though it affects all factions, its pretty obvious that Orks by far relied on the most index units in top tier competitive lists.

Are they? 2 DJs, with full Supa Shootaz, have 36 shots between them, while a full mob of Shoota Boyz have 60 shots, and cost 40 more points than the Boyz. The Boyz will, on average, land 23 hits (with Bad Moonz, and DDD), while the Jets will land 24 (after All Da Dakka, Bad Moonz, and DDD). And the DJs have a better Strength profile, allowing for more reliable wounding against T3-T6, and AP which make Saves less of an issue. Doesn't seem "nowhere near as efficient" to me, at least until you get to the Charge Phase and the Boyz are able to put their Choppas to good use. But against T3 with a 6+ Save, DJs will still reliably clear a 20 model chaff unit, which is really all you're trying to do anyway.

Alternatively, ditch the DJ and Da Jump your Boyz T1, then Da Jump the Boss on T2, after the chaff has cleared, since that's generally when your Biker Boss would have been making his charge anyway.

 Jidmah wrote:

I agree with semper here though. A biker warboss can usually set up an almost guaranteed charge by turn 2 or 3, while a deep striking warboss is always a gamble that backfires one out of five games. I also don't see why I wouldn't just use tank bustas for that job instead.

That's fair. Honestly, I ain't really been using the Biker Boss anyway, since the SSAG and a contingent of Smashas will generally get the same job done without risking my Warlord. I was mainly just throwing out ideas for people who might be like "but all I know how to play is a Killa Klaw and can't think of any alternative to this!"

I feel like in this post you have spent a silly amount of time attempting to prove why 2 Dakka Jets are about as efficient at clearing a screen as Boys (which they obviously aren't, by the way, because you've conveniently forgotten the most important phase for Jumped Boys which is the fight phase, also always assume Jumped Boys are Evil Sunz - you need to make the charge) to suggest that the Warboss on foot is similar to a Bikerboss because he can be jumped, then agreed with Jidmah when he suggested that the Bikerboss is actually pretty different to the Warboss on foot. Which is it as you seem really conflicted?


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 Tomsug wrote:
Dakkajet vs shoota boyz - that' s interesting topic, because it' s not just about the stats. It' s about tactics. Hard-to-hit flyier starting out of range of most of the weapons moving 60” is very flexible and gives you 1.turn 100% dakka. Well, Da Jumped boyz also, but you can' t have 2 of them and they have to be 9” away (problem with LOS) Dakkajet is something that gives you the chance to have 30 boyz AND dakkajet shooting 100% turn 1, which is more than solid screen cleaning firepower. And what about the boyz and 2 dakkajets....


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It means I can screen with a single unit that I can da jump out of danger rather than getting two units of grots trapped. Also, I'm just finding that 30 grots lets me hold space better and I have like 300 of the little guys painted so mine as well go nuts.

Dakkajets tend to melt on the first turn in my experience - even with KFF support.