I was reading the thread earlier on the teenager who was beaten by her step-dad with a wooden sword and the ensuing discussion on it being child abuse and beyond the realms of discipline (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/406156.page) and it reminded me of a debate I have had with a number of people on a safeguarding course, over what is acceptable as discipline and what is abuse. For me I have been clipped round the head, had my hand, backside and legs smacked and my mouth washed out with soap for saying a naughty word. I see all these as perfectly acceptable forms of discipline and not abuse. I'm not talking about full punches and slaps, but enough to sting. They made me a better person I feel as I learnt what is right and wrong, when I was young and bit my mum I was bitten back, only hard enough to cause some pain, but it stopped me from ever doing it again. It works when used right, and in no way did I ever feel as though I was being abused or hurt. I had done wrong and was being punished. Sometimes I had things taken away and bans put in place as well, all fine. Hell I even get a light smack when I go home and do something wrong now and I'm 21 and living in a different part of the country, only now my mum has to stand on a stool to reach.
So in your view what is acceptable in terms of discipline and when does it start crossing the line.
I had been warned, kept swearing so they got a bar of soap rubbed a little on my tongue and that was it. Not a proper washing out I suppose but it done the trick for a while. I don't see anything wrong, it wasn't harmful just unpleasant.
I didn't resist, it was that or being grounded. Does no harm so no real problem. As I said in my OP I was taught to respect my parents, that included when being disciplined to accept it.
Azza007 wrote:I was reading the thread earlier on the teenager who was beaten by her step-dad with a wooden sword and the ensuing discussion on it being child abuse and beyond the realms of discipline (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/406156.page) and it reminded me of a debate I have had with a number of people on a safeguarding course, over what is acceptable as discipline and what is abuse. For me I have been clipped round the head, had my hand, backside and legs smacked and my mouth washed out with soap for saying a naughty word. I see all these as perfectly acceptable forms of discipline and not abuse. I'm not talking about full punches and slaps, but enough to sting. They made me a better person I feel as I learnt what is right and wrong, when I was young and bit my mum I was bitten back, only hard enough to cause some pain, but it stopped me from ever doing it again. It works when used right, and in no way did I ever feel as though I was being abused or hurt. I had done wrong and was being punished. Sometimes I had things taken away and bans put in place as well, all fine. Hell I even get a light smack when I go home and do something wrong now and I'm 21 and living in a different part of the country, only now my mum has to stand on a stool to reach.
So in your view what is acceptable in terms of discipline and when does it start crossing the line.
Send 'em to the coal mine before eight or its too late.
I believe in punishment when it comes to my kids. They know that if they mess up, they are going to get spanked, or slapped across the mouth or put in the corner, or maybe a variation of the 3. My kids know what they should and shouldnt do. And so far, my son is in the top of his class, and his teachers say he is the most well behaved kid in their classes. My daughter is tracking just as well so far in her preschool.
My parents raised me the same way, my brothers and I were punished, we were grounded, we got spanked, all that stuff. Every one of us turned out pretty damn well. So yea, Im a big advocate for that line of teaching. But punishment is not beating/abuse, those are two totally different things
It's not abuse to discipline your children, it's abuse when it's not discipline anymore.
Washing a mouth out with soap, that's not insanity. It has no medical side effects and teaches a lesson.
Paddling hurts but isn't exactly the most brutal form punishment.
Going to bed without dinner, that was a necessity in my house more than once. So as a punishment it's not exactly a heart wrenching story of abuse and neglect.
Getting whipped and beaten with the buckle end of a state championship rodeo belt just because Da is drunk, well there's abuse.
Drinking Drano, abuse.
In the Uk, You cannot use unceccesary chastisement.
If a child walked into a police staion and claimed they have been struck and may be struck in the future then its an assault charge right there and maybe willful neglect.
Washing a mouth out with soap and water is unneccesary chastisement and cause of willful neglect and assault.
Don't blame me, its the law (here anyway).
You should be allowed to discipline your children.
I've swatted my kids backsides on a few occasions..but I would always sit them down afterwards and explain to them what they'd done wrong.
For the most part their both pretty well behaved and happy kids, sure...they misbehave from time to time...but it seldom takes more than a stern look to get them to act right.
My mother always apologizes for slapping me when I was a kid. I just laugh and tell her that it builds character.
Slapping your child in the face because he back talks you and hitting them with a wooden sword are two totally different things though... The line is difficult to draw.
I stayed out of trouble as a kid not because I was afraid of the situation or teacher or what not, its because I didn't want to face my mom and dad. I was spanked enough to know not to do what I did wrong again and I respected my parents (and still do) enough not to swear in front of them (though I cuss like a sailor around other people).
My oldest brother on the other hand apparently liked the taste of soap due to swearing when he was a kid. My mom said he used to bite down on the soap and it would curl up behind his teeth when she tried to pull it out. Never was to bright.....
My kid only responds to whippings as "time out" or taking activities/items away from him doesn't bother him one bit.
I think corporal punishment can be a good thing for some families, I used to get it when I was younger but now a days I just get grounded or get a long tortuous talk.
Cheesecat wrote:I think corporal punishment can be good thing for some families, I used to get it when I was younger but now a days I just get grounded or get a long tortuous talk.
I swear I was grounded about 200 days a year when I was a kid.
As I said in the Sword fighting thread, being smacked and disciplined as a kid does no harm at all. I firmly believe it made me a good, well behaved kid and a sensible feet on the ground adult.
Yes, there is a line between discipline and abuse and it should never be crossed. The laws here are pathetic though. The reason we have gakky little yobs hanging around on streets etc is because their parents can't or won't discipline them...and those parents were brought up the same way.
A good smack around the ear is no problem, as long as it is justified. As Fitzz says, as long as you sit them down later and explain the reasons why you swatted them, then do it. Kids need to be taught respect...
Scrabb wrote:My parents spanked me with a wooden or plastic spoon.
They only did it when I had done something they had clearly and expressly forbidden and I knew it.
They only did it when they were in complete control of their emotions (often five minutes after the crime).
They always explained to me that they were doing it for my good and safety and because they loved me.
I personally believe it is one of the most useful forms of punishment (dependent upon the personality of the child).
Emphasis mine.
This, this, ten thousand times this. Disiplining a child requires you be in control of yourself. If you are not in control, take five minutes to regain control. Otherwise you risk going beyond what is necessary and into capricious self-gratification, and that can quickly become abuse. Even if you wind inflicting exactly the same punishment, there is a world of difference between getting spanked for your own good by a calm parent, and getting spanked by an anrgy parent trying to make themselves feel better. Calm punishment teaches one not to misbehave, angry punishment teaches one that one's parents hate them (it's rarely ever true, but it sure feels that way at the time).
KingCracker wrote:I believe in punishment when it comes to my kids. They know that if they mess up, they are going to get spanked, or slapped across the mouth or put in the corner, or maybe a variation of the 3.
Easy E wrote:Gee, my kids well behaved and I have never spanked them. I find reason, denial of priviledges, and rewarding correct behavior works much better.
Huh?
I guess that means it isn't necessary to swack my kid to get their attention to behave.
Some kids are quiet and well-behaved by nature. Others... not so much. Why is Calvin and Hobbes so funny? Because we all know of a kid like that, way too much energy and imagination for his own good, always getting him into trouble. Suzi, on the other hand, is the complete opposite; we all know someone like that too.
What works for one kid doesn't always work for another. For my sister, being sent to her room with no phone access was the worst thing you could do to her. For me, it was a chance to catch up on my reading and no big deal.
Medium of Death wrote:Wait, so putting soap in your kids mouth is a widely accepted form of punishment?
My immediate family never did it but it's one that's been used for decades, it's probably so well known that I wouldn't be surprised if there was TV sitcoms or movies that feature it as well.
Medium of Death wrote:Wait, so putting soap in your kids mouth is a widely accepted form of punishment?
My immediate family never did it but it's one that's been used for decades, it's probably so well known that I wouldn't be surprised if there was TV sitcoms or movies that feature it as well.
... Look about four post up MilkDog...it has been featured in at least one film that I know of...
@ MoD...To answer your question...would I put soap in my own kids mouth...I doubt it, not that I believe it's particularly cruel...I just opted to ( on the single occasion that my son used profanity around me) chew him out a little and take away his TV privs, trust me...he'd sooner eat a bar of soap than miss out on his TV shows.
Monster Rain wrote:When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds- pretty standard really.
...See, even though your joking ( I assume), being a child of the 70's I can attest to the fact that we got gak knocked out of us on a regular basis, most of the kids I grew up with as well....parents were much more prone to just beat you half to death if you were bad...we all knew it...and most of us behaved...or at least tried to not get caught being bad.
Soap is harmless and its humiliating. Its a perfect form of punishment because it sends the message home.
I'm kinda tired of seeing parents come into Wal-Mart and Target with their undisciplined nightmares who scream, cry, and yell. It’s as if these kids are bipolar. All because "I don't want to hurt my child, I love them..." Don't you think codling them and making them so overly dependent is MORE hurtful? I mean these kids grow up thinking every time they whine they get their way. What, are they going to go to their boss and whine for a raise and expect it to happen?
Discipline isn't rocket science. Some kids don't require the physical to behave, but much like in everything else, we are not all the same. Some learn better with more direct and immediate measures. Point is, Discipline and abuse are completely separate things. Its not as hard to see the line if you use a little common sense.
Wooden swords, belt buckles, hitting in anger and being drunk are all bad. No revelations there.
Spanking when given plenty of opportunities to change a behavior and all other methods have been exhausted is fine. Key is to not spank in anger, as that emotion clouds the abuse/discipline lines.
Slapping the face to me is an ultimate shame style of punishment. Its not all that physically traumatic, but emotionally so. That form of punishment tends to be the most harsh and should be reserved for truly bad behavior.
Again these are my opinions and every family has their own way of handling things. Who's to say one is more right or wrong. All I know is the end result. A parent is undoubtedly the biggest influence a child has outside of their friends so its crucial to prepare them for a world that is not going to bend over backwards for them. If the world were all flowers and cotton candy I'd see no problem, but its not. Its hard, sometimes cruel, and often times a very beautiful place.
FITZZ, your hot sauce tale reminded me of that Dr. Phil episode where a mother admitted using it on her son and then forcing him to stand in a cold shower.
Amusingly, going onto the Dr. Phil show meant the police got involved.
FITZZ wrote: I've swatted my kids backsides on a few occasions..but I would always sit them down afterwards and explain to them what they'd done wrong.
For the most part their both pretty well behaved and happy kids, sure...they misbehave from time to time...but it seldom takes more than a stern look to get them to act right.
I do the same, I think its important they understand WHY I just spanked them. Works wonders
I believe physical punishment only really works up to a certain age. Once a child starts to develop their internal moral compass and sense of right and wrong it seems more beneficial to reason with them and explain what they are doing is wrong.
When i was a little tacker i shoved my mum while she was making dinner and she spilt hot soup everywhere almost spilling it on herself. My dad came over and gave me a right hard smack and i tell you what, i never pushed my mum again and all it cost was a decent smack across the arse. I think AustonT summed it up nicely with this.
AustonT wrote:It's not abuse to discipline your children, it's abuse when it's not discipline anymore.
Me and my siblings expected punishment when we fethed up and when we did our punishment was duly dolled out but it was never excessive or undeserved. It wasnt always getting a smack either. Sometimes we went without dinner (or worse without dessert, if there was some on the go) and sometimes we got sent to sit in the corner. I see no harm in enforcing good standards on kids, just dont take it too far.
AustonT wrote:Paddling hurts but isn't exactly the most brutal form punishment.
I have to say with the soap I didn't think my mum would carry it out, learnt when to stop pushing my luck that day as well. Now-a-days she swears quite a bit too as does my dad and no one really cares about language in the house that much.
I think the worst punishment though I have ever had was putting pictures of me as a baby, the usual embarrassing ones, up round the marquee of my 18th party for all my mates to see. I think its because I didn't help with the cleaning in the week so they made sure the worst ones went up.
I find that time out tends to be far more effective of a punishment for the little nephew if the mere threat of a spanking doesn't work (it usually does). The very mention of time out causes him to panic. Sure he's stubborn as a mule, but I'm about a thousand times more stubborn than that-- he'll cave eventually, and unlike the rest of my family I won't.
For the bigger nephew, denying him games and access to the internet is a better punishment. He'll go pouty, but my cats have made me immune to such childrens' tricks.
I wouldn't put soap in their mouth because I love my nephews. Soap is very bad for ingestion.
Melissia wrote:I find that time out tends to be far more effective of a punishment for the little nephew if the mere threat of a spanking doesn't work (it usually does). The very mention of time out causes him to panic. Sure he's stubborn as a mule, but I'm about a thousand times more stubborn than that-- he'll cave eventually, and unlike the rest of my family I won't.
For the bigger nephew, denying him games and access to the internet is a better punishment. He'll go pouty, but my cats have made me immune to such childrens' tricks.
I wouldn't put soap in their mouth because I love my nephews. Soap is very bad for ingestion.
Melissia wrote:I find that time out tends to be far more effective of a punishment for the little nephew if the mere threat of a spanking doesn't work (it usually does). The very mention of time out causes him to panic. Sure he's stubborn as a mule, but I'm about a thousand times more stubborn than that-- he'll cave eventually, and unlike the rest of my family I won't.
For the bigger nephew, denying him games and access to the internet is a better punishment. He'll go pouty, but my cats have made me immune to such childrens' tricks.
I wouldn't put soap in their mouth because I love my nephews. Soap is very bad for ingestion.
What if he doesn't go to time out?
The little one's three-ish. I could toss him across the room with one hand...
I will MAKE him sit in time out. Intimidating children and making them cry is deeply satisfying for some reason.
Melissia wrote:I find that time out tends to be far more effective of a punishment for the little nephew if the mere threat of a spanking doesn't work (it usually does). The very mention of time out causes him to panic. Sure he's stubborn as a mule, but I'm about a thousand times more stubborn than that-- he'll cave eventually, and unlike the rest of my family I won't.
For the bigger nephew, denying him games and access to the internet is a better punishment. He'll go pouty, but my cats have made me immune to such childrens' tricks.
I wouldn't put soap in their mouth because I love my nephews. Soap is very bad for ingestion.
What if he doesn't go to time out?
The little one's three-ish. I could toss him across the room with one hand...
I will MAKE him sit in time out. Intimidating children and making them cry is deeply satisfying for some reason.
What if he doesn't? If you phyisically hold him there you're engaging, kind of defeating the purpose of time out no?
(images of a Frazzled before the wiener time carrying a 2 year old Genghis Connie out of Gattis Pizza high over his head to avoid the flying feet and arms, laughing as he did it. Thus began the legend of "Genghis" Connie...)
Melissia wrote:He hasn't had that problem yet because I have him properly intimidated.
And they will know fear.
Overheard walking past The Teenager's room
friend of boy to The Teenager "you could just tell him that he's not your dad and he can't tell you what to do."
The Teenager "No way, my Dad's (me) crazy. You've seen him."
I spank my boy when it is required, no other punishment even phases him. He talks to himself in time out so he doesn't get bored,
If you take all his toys he could entertain himself for hours with a bread tie, I only allow him 1 hour of TV a day so he can get along quite well without it, and
When I raise my voice he looks at the wall behind me and I can tell he is daydreaming. It is a battle I am doomed to lose.
Melissia wrote:He hasn't had that problem yet because I have him properly intimidated.
And they will know fear.
Overheard walking past The Teenager's room
friend of boy to The Teenager "you could just tell him that he's not your dad and he can't tell you what to do."
The Teenager "No way, my Dad's (me) crazy. You've seen him."
Melissia wrote:Oddly enough the biggest problem isn't my nephew, but rather, his grandmother.
Which wasn't as bad of a problem with the first nephew, but she's gotten far softer in the intervening years...
Thats what grandparents are for. They are commencing Operation Payback on their children. The secret is to stuff them with gifts and sugar and chili, keep them up and stimulated as much as possible, then give them back to their parents and cruise off in their RVs cackling maniacly as they go. *
*She Who Must Be Obeyed has determined that our Operation Payback will substitute Harley with sidecar and Yamaha cruiser for RV. Yes, may have been a threat made that "yea we're going to come visit you at college on our hogs. Won't that be great!"
Those who advocate washing out a kid's mouth with soap might want to consider where the little darlings are picking those words up from.
Just sayin'.
When I hear mine using the occasional curse, I generally just look at them over the top of my glasses and say, "Do you REALLY want to sound like your Dad (me)?" The answer is a horrified "NOOO!" and they clean up their act immediately.
Medium of Death wrote:
To get soap in a child's mouth what do you do? Grab the child, hold it's mouth open, put soap inside. Seems cruel and unusual imho.
Somebody doesn't have kids yet.
I know that when it happened to me it was a far better punishment than the alternative, which was getting a spanking. Would I do it to my own kids, yes because it works and I know it works. But here's an interesting thing; the punishment needs to fit the environment. If we have a kid in the suburbs or in a nice household then an acceptable punishment it a time out but when you get into inner city areas the acceptable punishment is physical. The reason being the relative amount of violence surrounding the household; a kid in the suburbs doesn't see too much violence so a timeout or grounding will suffice compared to an inner city kid who would look at the timeout as if it were a joke because the surrounding area is dangerous and makes the timeout look like nothing and makes physical punishment much more necessary.
But as Fitzz highlighted it is absolutely necessary to explain why afterwards so they don't think that you're beating them just because you can, that is the fine line between child abuse and punishment.
Gitkikka wrote:Those who advocate washing out a kid's mouth with soap might want to consider where the little darlings are picking those words up from.
Just sayin'.
When I hear mine using the occasional curse, I generally just look at them over the top of my glasses and say, "Do you REALLY want to sound like your Dad (me)?" The answer is a horrified "NOOO!" and they clean up their act immediately.
Welcome to public school, where the one thing you are guaranteed to learn is new vocabulary. I'll soap out their mouths as necessary because certain swear words are just "don't say that again words" and others are Dove words.
I don't think hitting children is ever justafiable short of doing it to make them drop the bleach that they are going to drink or whatever.
I was hit with a willow rod and also a brush as a child. My brother and I used to be well scared.
Then it got to the point when I could put out my hand and take the implement from my parents being stronger than them.And laugh.
They got the message that we weren't afraid anymore and that we'd liked to be treated with a bit more grown-up-ness.
I think violence for offence is wrong. I'm ok with less than leathal measures for defence though and violence as a last resort (eg shooting Necrophile McRapey who's attacking your wife with a knife or something)
Phototoxin wrote:I don't think hitting children is ever justafiable short of doing it to make them drop the bleach that they are going to drink or whatever.
I was hit with a willow rod and also a brush as a child. My brother and I used to be well scared.
Then it got to the point when I could put out my hand and take the implement from my parents being stronger than them.And laugh.
They got the message that we weren't afraid anymore and that we'd liked to be treated with a bit more grown-up-ness.
Your parents did it wrong, I'm 21 and my mom still scares the hell out of me when I do something wrong and the same goes for my brother who is 20 and goes to a military school.
The way we were raised we never raise our hands to our mom even in self defense so when we got older and she began to slap us across the mouth for yelling at her or something like that we took it like men. I have to thank her for that, it raised my pain threshold overall.
Gitkikka wrote:Those who advocate washing out a kid's mouth with soap might want to consider where the little darlings are picking those words up from.
Just sayin'.
When I hear mine using the occasional curse, I generally just look at them over the top of my glasses and say, "Do you REALLY want to sound like your Dad (me)?" The answer is a horrified "NOOO!" and they clean up their act immediately.
Welcome to public school, where the one thing you are guaranteed to learn is new vocabulary. I'll soap out their mouths as necessary because certain swear words are just "don't say that again words" and others are Dove words.
I'm not blaming public school, as those kids have learned that language from somewhere - most likely from home (as was my point). I know too many parents in the Dallas area who haven't really figured that one out yet...
tl;dr Parents should clean up their act before cleaning up their kid's.
we whack kids with birch rods and whippy suckers here. and make them slop out the buffalo pens. and sometimes lock them in the bathroom or take away their dinner or something.
I do live in a medieval society though, technology is fairly new here.
All I know is, kids behaved a lot better when it was ok to bust their ass for misbehaving. Now it is all time out stuff and begging them to behave. The line between fear and respect is rather thin.
Kids don't care if they behave and outside of your home it is pretty much impossible to discipline a child. Take their recess? Ha like they care.
There are a few counties in Texas who have started using paddling again in schools. So far the statistics have shown that as paddling increased and was used, discipline problems went down and grades went up.
I have no children. I will never have them. Other people's children are hellspawn until they reach the age of majority, and even then most are still hellspawn.
Little kids are cool because if you just tell them to do something they usually do. Once they get a bit older they want a reason for everything, so far the reason why the kids I babysit can't do certain things is because I'll tickle the living hell out of their armpits or the bottom of their feet. Seriously, I have this motion where I make a pair of "fangs" with my middle and pointer finger and then use those to hit vital tickle spots.
And I do blame public schools because that's where I learned most of my words and crude phrases. Anybody who went to public school in my city and maybe many others can probably tell you why "pen island" is funny.
halonachos wrote:Little kids are cool because if you just tell them to do something they usually do. Once they get a bit older they want a reason for everything, so far the reason why the kids I babysit can't do certain things is because I'll tickle the living hell out of their armpits or the bottom of their feet. Seriously, I have this motion where I make a pair of "fangs" with my middle and pointer finger and then use those to hit vital tickle spots.
And I do blame public schools because that's where I learned most of my words and crude phrases. Anybody who went to public school in my city and maybe many others can probably tell you why "pen island" is funny.
I always found " The pen is mightier than the sword" to be more amusing...but YMMV.
As far as children picking up profanity from their parents...sure in some case that's very true ( though I also agree they pick it up at school just as fast)...but...as I told my Missus Mother when she made the comment that somehow I was responsible that my Son had said a " dirty word" because he heard me say it ...so I shouldn't be angry at him...he see's me drive everyday...and if I caught him behind the wheel of a car I'd be mad too.
Oh yeah, kids pick up words from everywhere but in my personal experience it was mainly at school because like most of the kids there I was the son of a sailor and if you take 500 kids who's dads are all in the NAVY someone is bound to bring something to the table.
But sometimes they pick it up in movies, in fact the oldest I babysit(7 years old) was sitting in the car next to me while I was driving them to their swim lessons and saw a jet flying overhead and said "** have you seen Topgun, I did and it was cool. My favorite part was when the guy was flying the jet real close to that building with the windows where the guy tells him to land, and he flew close and scared the guy inside and he said 'God Dammit'."
My parents never punished me for cursing, their reasoning that I would learn from the reactions of others whether or not cursing was acceptable. So I would punished for cursing at school, but not at home because my parents considered the home an acceptable place to curse, given that it essentially a private place for expression.
Also, my dad's side of the family is largely composed of people from the hills of Kentucky who make their living in trades, so cursing just sort of came with that.
dogma wrote:My parents never punished me for cursing, their reasoning that I would learn from the reactions of others whether or not cursing was acceptable. So I would punished for cursing at school, but not at home because my parents considered the home an acceptable place to curse, given that it essentially a private place for expression.
Also, my dad's side of the family is largely composed of people from the hills of Kentucky who make their living in trades, so cursing just sort of came with that.
Matter of choice I suppose...I just prefer that my ten year old not walk around the house asking where his @*%$*$!! Power Ranger is... I know he's going to eventually swear...hell he probably does already when he's off with his friends....but I'd rather him spare some of my illusions until he's at least in his teens.
Did you punish for fear of the child's future or because they made you angry?
My boy hit other kids at school because he was angry, we discuss keeping distance, anger control and then a brief spanking. Done. Matters of safety for others and himself get that ultimate punishment, all others are the corner or loss of privileges.
We talk about respect of others and they are reminded that we are not **required** to give them what they want, they will get what they need and only that, if respect and getting mouthy happens.
Just calling someone "stupid" is unacceptable no matter that the evidence starts looking conclusive...
I received the occasional good old "leather belt to the butt at the barn with the it-will-hurt-me-more-than-you-son-speech", still not sure what to make of it other than I think I am not emotionally scarred because of it ;-) .
FITZZ wrote:
Matter of choice I suppose...I just prefer that my ten year old not walk around the house asking where his @*%$*$!! Power Ranger is... I know he's going to eventually swear...hell he probably does already when he's off with his friends....but I'd rather him spare some of my illusions until he's at least in his teens.
My parents are both cynics, and I think they took pleasure in watching my curse in public, if only to burst the bubbles of others.
Lord Scythican wrote:All I know is, kids behaved a lot better when it was ok to bust their ass for misbehaving. Now it is all time out stuff and begging them to behave. The line between fear and respect is rather thin.
I wouldn't say punks from the 70's (or even 60's hippies who spent most there time lazing about and smoking weed) were any better disciplined than the teens we have now. But maybe there was an age
when unruly youngsters was a rarer sight than it is today but I still remain doubtful that it actually exists.
FITZZ wrote:
Matter of choice I suppose...I just prefer that my ten year old not walk around the house asking where his @*%$*$!! Power Ranger is... I know he's going to eventually swear...hell he probably does already when he's off with his friends....but I'd rather him spare some of my illusions until he's at least in his teens.
My parents are both cynics, and I think they took pleasure in watching my curse in public, if only to burst the bubbles of others.
Heh, I derived more pleasure when my Son, who when asked by his Grandmother if he " Believed in Jesus" replied that he " Believed in Squids"...We each find our little moments of happiness in a multitude of places.
FITZZ wrote: I've swatted my kids backsides on a few occasions..but I would always sit them down afterwards and explain to them what they'd done wrong.
For the most part their both pretty well behaved and happy kids, sure...they misbehave from time to time...but it seldom takes more than a stern look to get them to act right.
I get that i'll be in the minority here, but I'm unconvinced that discipline is even a desirable trait, that pretty much makes all physical punishment unacceptable in my book.
Melissia wrote:I find that time out tends to be far more effective of a punishment for the little nephew if the mere threat of a spanking doesn't work (it usually does). The very mention of time out causes him to panic. Sure he's stubborn as a mule, but I'm about a thousand times more stubborn than that-- he'll cave eventually, and unlike the rest of my family I won't.
For the bigger nephew, denying him games and access to the internet is a better punishment. He'll go pouty, but my cats have made me immune to such childrens' tricks.
I wouldn't put soap in their mouth because I love my nephews. Soap is very bad for ingestion.
What if he doesn't go to time out?
The little one's three-ish. I could toss him across the room with one hand...
I will MAKE him sit in time out. Intimidating children and making them cry is deeply satisfying for some reason.
What if he doesn't? If you phyisically hold him there you're engaging, kind of defeating the purpose of time out no?
(images of a Frazzled before the wiener time carrying a 2 year old Genghis Connie out of Gattis Pizza high over his head to avoid the flying feet and arms, laughing as he did it. Thus began the legend of "Genghis" Connie...)
Wait, you actually named your daughter Genghis Connie?
If you ever, EVER hit your child (IMO) you are a horrible parent, you never hit another human being that is smaller then you and cant defend him/herself (Why dont you smake a grown man for being silly and see how far you go. It is wrong and the most dumbest thing a parent can do. Even sending your son/daughter to bed without dinner is horribly crewl, you wont let your child eat food?...not having desert is fine. If you dont give your child one of his/her human right (which is a child must eat) you are also a horrible and terrible parent.
The only disipline that is right, is to send them to their room, and impose bans. that is all a parent should do, and if they keep acting up, you starting taking there toys/possensions away. (NO I DONT MEAN THERE bed or sleeping bits) then they will learn.
slapping a kid on his behind is still child abuse. I dont what you americans even think your doing, if I child swears, YOU SLAP THEM ON THE MOUTH!?!!?!?...no that is pretty much punching them in the face. if you slap your child I'd idvise you to see a parenting guide, or give you child to foster care, cause there not safe if you slap/smack/hit or dont let them eat.
Jesus you Americans have some funny ways of treating your kids.
ParatrooperSimon wrote:If you ever, EVER hit your child (IMO) you are a horrible parent, you never hit another human being that is smaller then you and cant defend him/herself (Why dont you smake a grown man for being silly and see how far you go. It is wrong and the most dumbest thing a parent can do. Even sending your son/daughter to bed without dinner is horribly crewl, you wont let your child eat food?...not having desert is fine. If you dont give your child one of his/her human right (which is a child must eat) you are also a horrible and terrible parent.
The only disipline that is right, is to send them to their room, and impose bans. that is all a parent should do, and if they keep acting up, you starting taking there toys/possensions away. (NO I DONT MEAN THERE bed or sleeping bits) then they will learn.
slapping a kid on his behind is still child abuse. I dont what you americans even think your doing, if I child swears, YOU SLAP THEM ON THE MOUTH!?!!?!?...no that is pretty much punching them in the face. if you slap your child I'd idvise you to see a parenting guide, or give you child to foster care, cause there not safe if you slap/smack/hit or dont let them eat.
Jesus you Americans have some funny ways of treating your kids.
Most of the posters advocating corporeal punishment don't use it every time a child does something bad and I still think it's a good idea because it sends as clear of message as words due and it makes the child
realize that the parent is willing to back up there statements if pushed.
ParatrooperSimon wrote: Jesus you Americans have some funny ways of treating your kids.
Naw, you're just a kiwi with rather odd ideas (and a strange accent that denies that the great vowel shift ever happened). New Zealand actually banned this crap, didn't they?
Nowt wrong with a clip behind the ear when it is deserved.
I don't beat my children (I don't have - CAN'T have - any) but other folk's kids often make me wish I could wallop them. No self-discipline in any of them. It's all "but I want ..." and "gimme an iphone for my birthday" and a fundamental inability to understand the concept of "no".
These days, sending a kid to their room is NOT a punishment, it is a reward.
Why?
It's often where their games console, computer and other stuff is. Sending them to their room just sends the signal that they get to play with their stuff for doing the wrong thing.
If you're going to send them to their room, then at least put their stuff into storage for the duration first.
I think if your child is being a proper asshat. -Knows- it and behaves as such. A smack is acceptable. Mind you a smack. Not fething driving you fist into his gut until he develops a stomach ulcer.
Shadowbrand wrote:I think if your child is being a proper asshat. -Knows- it and behaves as such. A smack is acceptable. Mind you a smack. Not fething driving you fist into his gut until he develops a stomach ulcer.
I honestly want to see an episode of Super Nanny where Gordon Ramsay is taking care of the kids.
When I was little, my parents spanked me when I acted up.
When I was older, since I was disciplined from spankings and understood what to do and not to do, I rarely got in trouble.
I may be a couple hairs off from normal (at least that's what my Coworkers and Managers say. They like it though. Keeps work Interesting according to them.), but that isn't because my parents disciplined me by spanking me when I was too young to understand what was right or wrong. That's because during High School I spent about 99% of my free time Reading, playing WoW/40K/DND or writing for a small time F2P MMORPG instead of sleeping.
Spanking, Washing out mouth with soap, and Going to bed without dinner are good forms of punishment to a child when they are young and misbehave.
It makes the kid think, "I don't like being spanked, I won't do that again" Or "I don't like the taste of soap, I won't say that again" Or " I like food, I won't do that again"
Making your kid miss one meal out of 1095(365*3) isn't cruel. you could cut that number in about 1/4 and still be under the line for cruel.
What I don't understand is all of these new(ish) laws that say that this kind of punishment is bad. there is a point where it becomes abuse, but that's more along the lines of "No food for 3 days, pour bleach down their throat, or beat them with a wooden sword". Not one swat on the butt, A bar of Dove Soap in the mouth, or no food for tonight.
These people that are passing/passed/will pass these child abuse laws are people, who as a kid, were most likely punished like this. It gets the point across a lot better than "It's not nice to stick a steak knife in mommy's thigh, say your sorry and no iPhone for you, little Jimmy(age 3), until after dinner." followed by a hug.
While I was spanked when I was little, my sister wasn't, due to my aunt freaking out because I did something bad and got swatted on the rear because of it. My sister got the "Child Friendly" Discipline growing up.
I am well behaved. My sister however, fights with my parents every week, usually 3-4 times. She always starts the fights, and my parents have, quite a few times, threatened to just kick her out because of it. She is 18, I am 20.
Take that little anecdote as you will.
Edit: one last point to top off. The Aunt that freaked out has a 24 year old daughter who also got the "Child Friendly" Discipline. Her Daughter is: a College Dropout, Unemployed because she doesn't want to work, and mooches off of said aunt.
Shadowbrand wrote:I think if your child is being a proper asshat. -Knows- it and behaves as such. A smack is acceptable. Mind you a smack. Not fething driving you fist into his gut until he develops a stomach ulcer.
In terms of the lesson being taught, what's the difference? and why do you draw the line there?
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Iur_tae_mont wrote:
It makes the kid think, "I don't like being spanked, I won't do that again" Or "I don't like the taste of soap, I won't say that again" Or " I like food, I won't do that again"
Yes but is that a good lesson to teach them. it certainly doesn't make them a good person, at least any-more than a planes is good for delivering aid, or a hammer is good for building housing.
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chromedog wrote:I disagree, but then I believe the ONLY discipline that counts is SELF-DISCIPLINE (no, I'm not talking about flagellation ).
It's something that CANNOT be taught, but has to be learned - often the hard way.
Life sucks, get a helmet.
What's the difference, do you mean behaving for the sake of behaving?
Ultrafool wrote:My mother either threw her shoe at me, which never missed, or pull on my sideburns (my weakness). She even hit me for things I was thinking of doing.
Your Mom was the Bad Mutha Shaft of the Mom world.
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ParatrooperSimon wrote:If you ever, EVER hit your child (IMO) you are a horrible parent, you never hit another human being that is smaller then you and cant defend him/herself
Wow thats so much bs its not funny. What, you want me to hit people bigger than me? Thats just nonsense.
Ultrafool wrote:My mother either threw her shoe at me, which never missed, or pull on my sideburns (my weakness). She even hit me for things I was thinking of doing.
Your Mom was the Bad Mutha Shaft of the Mom world.
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ParatrooperSimon wrote:If you ever, EVER hit your child (IMO) you are a horrible parent, you never hit another human being that is smaller then you and cant defend him/herself
Wow thats so much bs its not funny. What, you want me to hit people bigger than me? Thats just nonsense.
If your kids ever grow bigger than you, you've fed them well. Have at it.
I was smacked around as a kid. However, I have grown to become quite
the timid person and passive aggressive smartass. I haven't figured out
one thing lead to the other, but now when I see my dad he's much
different than the man who terrified me as a child. I figure a part of
me was born timid, and life exacerbated some of that.
ParatrooperSimon wrote:Why dont you smake a grown man for being silly and see how far you go.
Because (1) a grown man (presumably) doesn't need that type of correction; and (2) you can reason with a grown man. Also, when a parent smacks a child it's not done with the intent or purpose of hurting the child. It's done to trigger a small pain respose and create a negative association between the child and the activity. If you smack a kid's hand when she reaches for a hot stove, she quickly learns not to reach for the hot stove.
ParatrooperSimon wrote:It is wrong and the most dumbest thing a parent can do. Even sending your son/daughter to bed without dinner is horribly crewl, you wont let your child eat food?...not having desert is fine. If you dont give your child one of his/her human right (which is a child must eat) you are also a horrible and terrible parent.
This might surprise you, but most kids aren't so food deprived that missing a single meal will have a significant adverse effect on them. And not letting the kid have dessert? If your kid gets a dessert every night after dinner such that the deprivation thereof is a punishment, then I'd suggest you're doing something wrong as a parent.
ParatrooperSimon wrote:The only disipline that is right, is to send them to their room, and impose bans. that is all a parent should do, and if they keep acting up, you starting taking there toys/possensions away. (NO I DONT MEAN THERE bed or sleeping bits) then they will learn.
No, they really won't. Because the deprivation of minor luxuries from a child does not have the same effect as a spanking, time-out (physical isolation, presumably you'd have a problem with this), or skipping dinner.
Ultrafool wrote:My mother either threw her shoe at me, which never missed, or pull on my sideburns (my weakness). She even hit me for things I was thinking of doing.
Your Mom was the Bad Mutha Shaft of the Mom world.
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ParatrooperSimon wrote:If you ever, EVER hit your child (IMO) you are a horrible parent, you never hit another human being that is smaller then you and cant defend him/herself
Wow thats so much bs its not funny. What, you want me to hit people bigger than me? Thats just nonsense.
If your kids ever grow bigger than you, you've fed them well. Have at it.
I was smacked around as a kid. However, I have grown to become quite
the timid person and passive aggressive smartass. I haven't figured out
one thing lead to the other, but now when I see my dad he's much
different than the man who terrified me as a child. I figure a part of
me was born timid, and life exacerbated some of that.
Wish I could have been a Genghis Connie.
GC and friend went paint balling yesterday. Dap Dap Dap. Frazzled blew out his hip, and went down in a blaze of glory of pistol shooting his paint rifle at the BGs...
Lord Scythican wrote:All I know is, kids behaved a lot better when it was ok to bust their ass for misbehaving. Now it is all time out stuff and begging them to behave. The line between fear and respect is rather thin.
I wouldn't say punks from the 70's (or even 60's hippies who spent most there time lazing about and smoking weed) were any better disciplined than the teens we have now. But maybe there was an age
when unruly youngsters was a rarer sight than it is today but I still remain doubtful that it actually exists.
Those guys aren't kids though. They look late 20's. Besides, that guy with the gun can take care of them if they get unruly enough.
You may have a point about the Punks and hippies not any better, but the children of those times were way better behaved.
I grew up getting "whooped" or "switched" whatever other sort of name can be applied to a spanking, and in NONE of the instances where I received that as punishment did I not deserve it. So long as it does not cross that thin line into abuse, spanking a misbehaving child does work.. countless upstanding, contributing members to society attest to this.
For clarification, I think there has been some confusion over the use of the "send the child to bed with no dinner as punishment" thing. While not overly harmful to a kid, sending them to bed for just misbehaving can be seen as wrong. However, if I am feeding my child a pot roast with potatoes, carrots, and corn (the works really), but the little bugger is refusing to eat, acting like a total "ass-hat".. or wants to be a spoiled brat and refuse to eat unless they get McD's or something, then they will definitely go to bed hungry.
Growing up at my house, if you didn't want/like what was on the table, well then you either figured out how to make a sandwich, eat what was served, or you went hungry.. and eating what was served was a requirement for any sort of dessert.
I have also found that a raised voice can work to get my kid in line, but what works even better without physical contact is talking real quiet so they have to be close to listen, and using a somewhat menacing tone when doing so..
Additionally, since my daughter is only 2, spanking has yet to be used, as I feel that she is not old enough to understand the punishment and negative associations to her actions and the spanking. Once she is old enough to understand that though, spanking will be one tool in the proverbial tool belt for myself and the missus. My point is though, punishments need to be age appropriate to the child, as well as appropriate to the deed.
Melissia wrote:The little one's three-ish. I could toss him across the room with one hand...
I will MAKE him sit in time out. Intimidating children and making them cry is deeply satisfying for some reason.
You are a scary person...
She sounds like my brother the Giant. He actually gets satisfaction from wearing scary masks, and waking his kids up in the middle of the night he either does the scream to wake them, or my personal, most fethed up "your going to give them switches when they grow up" is he will just sit on their beds and wake them up gently and start talking normal. They wake up, hear daddy, then open eyes to see the fething Devil or melted face man giving them the shove. Sheesh.
biccat wrote:If your kid gets a dessert every night after dinner such that the deprivation thereof is a punishment, then I'd suggest you're doing something wrong as a parent.
I'm not a parent, but I see things much much differently then most other people, yes you may have bin smacked around a bit, but have you ever had things thrown at you for the intent that the person wants to hurt you (such as beer bottles and and wine bottles), live in a household where constant fighting was just a day to day thing. Me and my brother would hide in our rooms and pray to whoever the Christ would here us. A lot of you have never bin in situations like that (some will say "YES I HAVE SO STFU" because this is a forum and a lot of people tend to talk a bit of crap because their trying to get some sort of dramatic factor into it) when things like that happen to you, you tend to see things A LOT differently. All I know is that any kind of physical abuse to a child is utterly and morally wrong for a parent to do, even if they only want to enforce discipline and not hurt.
Melissia wrote:The little one's three-ish. I could toss him across the room with one hand...
I will MAKE him sit in time out. Intimidating children and making them cry is deeply satisfying for some reason.
You are a scary person...
She sounds like my brother the Giant. He actually gets satisfaction from wearing scary masks, and waking his kids up in the middle of the night he either does the scream to wake them, or my personal, most fethed up "your going to give them switches when they grow up" is he will just sit on their beds and wake them up gently and start talking normal. They wake up, hear daddy, then open eyes to see the fething Devil or melted face man giving them the shove. Sheesh.
I'm not THAT bad. Mostly I just want to be left alone to play games, study, and chat wih friends.
But my family won't allow that. I'm a student, therefor, my time isnt' very valuable and I can watch my sister's little walking mistakes while she goes off somewhere to bang her husband or something (dunno what the eff they do half the time)... even though I'm busier than they are.
MrDwhitey wrote:Yeah, but that's kinda the point others are making I though? Enough is discipline, more is abuse. From the sounds of it, you got more.
This is what I am asking, when it becomes abuse. There is a line that shouldn't be crossed when it comes to it. Full punch=abuse while light smack doesn't count as abuse in my eyes. There is that difference between telling off and punishing and abusing your child.
I grew up in a daycare and got to see many different types of dicipline the parents provided to their kids. By grow up in, I mean my mother ran it out of the home, not I went to daycare btw.
You want to know something? The parents who occasionally spanked their kids, and gave a little coporal punishment? Guess what? their kids (in general) were better behaved. The parents who used the 'modern' diciplinary methods of reasoning with them and giving them a time out ended up with little gits who wouldn't listen to anyone. Well... other than my mother. She's fething _scary_ even when she can't hit you... First of all, children are learning. By putting in a negative response to something it has a tendency to stick. When you spank a child, or give them a little slap upside the head/hand/whatever you don't usually hit them that hard. Enough to hurt yes. But it stings, and it's usually more surprising than anything else. And they remember. They don't remember the time outs, as children have the short term memory of goldfish whose water has been replaced with bong-water. 5 minutes after the time out they'll forget. It's how they're built.
Me? I'm going to smack my kids. Not a lot of course, but having seen what happens to the kids who don't know dicipline... A few moments of 'ow that stings' is a lot better than the concequences when they hit the real world. Because when they grow up and expect the world to revolve around them they're in for some major pain.
Children have EXCELLENT memory. As good as it gets actually. And the best functioning learning system in the galaxy (that we know of)
And I can tell that i have NEVER needed being beaten by my parents; and i have had no problem not behaving well and respectfully. I am raising my own first kid, and i have yet to see ANY situation that either warrants or needs me to take physically punitive/violent means towards my child.
I live in denmark, where ALL slapping of a kid is illegal as well, and i think thats fine.
And for those who think that physical punishment of children is the road to well-being and discipline.... hmm visit a jail and ask the inmates for their childhood experiences of physical punishment...
Im a clinical psychologist working with children with violent, criminal and sexually abusive behaviour so maybe that is biasing me as well (though i regard it more as actual experience as well as research and theoretical knowledge). I can tell you for sure that these child and adolescent abusers and criminals have had general experiences of physically punitive parents (which in denmark, as said, is legally regarded as violence).
They remember things that they need to. A time out is rarely memorable enough to stick. Some kids yes, it does. Others need the physical stimulus.
And there's a big difference between a spanking and a beating. Sure many of the people in a prison were beaten as children. I'll bet there's just as many who never had a hand raised to them. If not more of those. You can physicially punish a child without abusing them. Children aren't as fragile as the modern world seems to think. They're designed to bounce back. That isn't saying go overboard, but once again, a few smacks on their butt with enough force to redden it and make it memorable to sit down for a few minutes... that won't harm them. Not every child needs it. It's a case by case thing. One thing might earn a spanking, other a time out.
LordofMuck wrote: I am raising my own first kid, and i have yet to see ANY situation that either warrants or needs me to take physically punitive/violent means towards my child.
Really? So when your kid reaches for the electrical socket/hot stove/blender you're going take the time to explain to them why it's wrong? Or are you going to slap them on the hand and say "no" and then, when they are out of danger, explain that the appliance is dangerous?
A slap on the back of the hand or a spanking for the most egregious offences (and only for repeated violations) is more than enough when they are young, as they age you simply take away what is precious to them IMO.
Also if you are going to swat them with something use your hand and not a belt, switch or paddle. I know it sounds kind of weird but you can't really judge the level of pain caused if you use a belt. You want to convince them not to reoffend not cause damage.
Also if you are going to spank your kid don’t pull their pants down first for Christ sake. And don’t freaking do it in a public place, if the kid is acting up leave your shopping in a aisle and drag them out of the store.
Just my two cents worth
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biccat wrote:
LordofMuck wrote: I am raising my own first kid, and i have yet to see ANY situation that either warrants or needs me to take physically punitive/violent means towards my child.
Really? So when your kid reaches for the electrical socket/hot stove/blender you're going take the time to explain to them why it's wrong? Or are you going to slap them on the hand and say "no" and then, when they are out of danger, explain that the appliance is dangerous?
You could just grab their hand to stop them from touching the socket/wood chipper maybe?
What happens if they try to cross the street without looking both ways? Do you sucker punch them?
CoI wrote:
Me? I'm going to smack my kids. Not a lot of course, but having seen what happens to the kids who don't know dicipline...
What? what happens to those kids?
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Azza007 wrote:
MrDwhitey wrote:Yeah, but that's kinda the point others are making I though? Enough is discipline, more is abuse. From the sounds of it, you got more.
This is what I am asking, when it becomes abuse. There is a line that shouldn't be crossed when it comes to it. Full punch=abuse while light smack doesn't count as abuse in my eyes. There is that difference between telling off and punishing and abusing your child.
But the lesson it teaches them is identical so what's the real difference? I'm sure parents who throw bottles at there children think that what they do is fine and that, say, starving children in the basement is abuse. Why draw the line a a smack and not at a full punch?
I'm sure we agree that the job of a parent is to raise a happy, healthy and Moral child, so my question is, where does discipline come in to that? Children who scream in restaurants and cry in supermarkets know that what they are doing is 'wrong' they know that there parents and other people don't like it, the problem it's that they don't care. By hurting the child we can get it conform to our rules but it still will have no idea why. If you ever have to hurt your child you've failed your number one job as a parent. Discipline is not a desirable thing.
In addition to that we have to ask what type of lesson it teaches children, primarily that 'might makes right' the child's parent in there eyes, are only good because their big. rules aren't agreed upon collective codes people follow, but facts, enforced by the 'rule giver' (the biggest person)
There is zero reason to EVER hit a child, it screws there head up beyond belief.
Lord Scythican wrote:All I know is, kids behaved a lot better when it was ok to bust their ass for misbehaving. Now it is all time out stuff and begging them to behave. The line between fear and respect is rather thin.
I wouldn't say punks from the 70's (or even 60's hippies who spent most there time lazing about and smoking weed) were any better disciplined than the teens we have now. But maybe there was an age
when unruly youngsters was a rarer sight than it is today but I still remain doubtful that it actually exists.
Kragura wrote:
What's the difference, do you mean behaving for the sake of behaving?
No.
Self discipline is knowing the difference between being able to do something and CHOOSING NOT TO and also knowing why the difference is important.
Not so much a case of "we can do this stuff." as "Wait. Should we be doing it?".
Of course, MY self-discipline came about because we actually had children being disciplined when I was one. Children who shoplifted were "talked to" by a local police sgt (who might have overstated things, but "scared straight" was a valid tactic back then). We didn't have 'gangs' of badly behaved oiks harassing people on the street, bashing them and stealing their phones (ok, that's because we didn't have phones on us worth stealing).
Lord Scythican wrote:All I know is, kids behaved a lot better when it was ok to bust their ass for misbehaving. Now it is all time out stuff and begging them to behave. The line between fear and respect is rather thin.
I wouldn't say punks from the 70's (or even 60's hippies who spent most there time lazing about and smoking weed) were any better disciplined than the teens we have now. But maybe there was an age
when unruly youngsters was a rarer sight than it is today but I still remain doubtful that it actually exists.
... Which seems more rude and foul mouthed to you MilkDog..?
How many parents actually encourage there kids to swear though? Most parents in Canada would get pretty pissy if they saw there kid swearing like a trucker, now that I'm older my parents don't'
mind if I swear a little such as when I injure myself or am frustrated in fact even they let out the occasional .
@ MilkDog...My point is basically that one see's kids like those quite often...at least I have, and even if the parents aren't "encouraging" it...many seem to allow it or "ignore" it..
I can honestly say that I've not gone to the store, mall, what have you once in the past several years where I haven't seen at least one example of kids behaving like the ones in that video...or worse.
Sure kids were bad in the past..hell..I was a " bad" kid myself, but ...you simply didn't see kids behaving like that as often...or parents not doing gak about it as much as you do now.
My fiance told me a story from her childhood, when she acted like a right little gak, pretty much trying to provoke her Dad. He warned her and she swore at him and he snapped, put her on his lap gave her enough of a whack that broke the wooden spoon and for a few seconds after that he still wanted to hit her again.
He lost it, and he knew he lost it, and he never hit her again after that, and used other ways to discipline her. Her mum still threatened a spanking, and occassionally followed through, because she knew she knew she wouldn't lose control in the same way.
I think that pretty much sums up the whole debate, for me - if you feel you are hitting your child because it is a necessary punishment and the best way of getting the message across, then you should be able to smack your child. If you lose control and your threat to your child is motivated by anger, then you shouldn't. And it's up to every parenting couple to make that decision for themselves.
I don't think hitting or not hitting has any relation to how troublesome a kid is - most of the real little monsters I know are spanked by their folks, the problem lies with inconsistent parenting, or time pressures meaning the parents aren't there enough, or because, well, some kids are just little bastards. And I think you can get by without ever needing to hit your kid, if that's how you want to do things, as timeout and other punishment will get kids to understand where the line is.
What really matters is that line being clearly drawn.
Oh, and we plan on spanking being a last line of punishment, if our future kids get out of line. I would hope that if either of us couldn't keep a straight head and hit one of our kids out of anger, we wouldn't ever consider hitting them again.
KingCracker wrote:Oh man, you are SO sounding like a collage kid with no children. Im talking, poster child for it
Probably.
Most parents think that they're more important than non-parents, so it gets me in a rage.
Parents, for the most part, don't nkow what the hell they're doing. I don't blame 'em for that, each child is unique and reacts differently, so each one has to be reacted to differently-- and almost no parents have any training for it and most don't have the psychology/sociology background appropriate for it either, nevermind actual lack in ability, so they do the best with what they have.
But it also means that no, b****, you are NOT better because you're a parent. Just because you fethed some guy and got knocked up at eighteen doesn't make me obligated to do anything for you and your little mistake.
FITZZ wrote: @ MilkDog...My point is basically that one see's kids like those quite often...at least I have, and even if the parents aren't "encouraging" it...many seem to allow it or "ignore" it..
I can honestly say that I've not gone to the store, mall, what have you once in the past several years where I haven't seen at least one example of kids behaving like the ones in that video...or worse.
Sure kids were bad in the past..hell..I was a " bad" kid myself, but ...you simply didn't see kids behaving like that as often...or parents not doing gak about it as much as you do now.
Unfortunately I don't think there's anyway one can prove or disprove if kids of the past were better behaved considering maturity is quite subjective.
FITZZ wrote: @ MilkDog...My point is basically that one see's kids like those quite often...at least I have, and even if the parents aren't "encouraging" it...many seem to allow it or "ignore" it..
I can honestly say that I've not gone to the store, mall, what have you once in the past several years where I haven't seen at least one example of kids behaving like the ones in that video...or worse.
Sure kids were bad in the past..hell..I was a " bad" kid myself, but ...you simply didn't see kids behaving like that as often...or parents not doing gak about it as much as you do now.
Unfortunately I don't think there's anyway one can prove or disprove if kids of the past were better behaved considering maturity is quite subjective.
Perhaps not...but...I do know that in the 42 years that I've been wandering around the planet I've certainly seen a dramatic rise in the amount of children who will stand in a supermarket and tell their mothers to go feth themselves because the mother refused them some toy or video game...and a dramatic rise in the amount of Mothers who will allow themselves to be spoken to in such a manner.
FITZZ wrote: @ MilkDog...My point is basically that one see's kids like those quite often...at least I have, and even if the parents aren't "encouraging" it...many seem to allow it or "ignore" it..
I can honestly say that I've not gone to the store, mall, what have you once in the past several years where I haven't seen at least one example of kids behaving like the ones in that video...or worse.
Sure kids were bad in the past..hell..I was a " bad" kid myself, but ...you simply didn't see kids behaving like that as often...or parents not doing gak about it as much as you do now.
Unfortunately I don't think there's anyway one can prove or disprove if kids of the past were better behaved considering maturity is quite subjective.
Perhaps not...but...I do know that in the 42 years that I've been wandering around the planet I've certainly seen a dramatic rise in the amount of children who will stand in a supermarket and tell their mothers to go feth themselves because the mother refused them some toy or video game...and a dramatic rise in the amount of Mothers who will allow themselves to be spoken to in such a manner.
I've seen a lot of bratty and screamy kids but I haven't seen any with sailor mouths yet, still it makes me want to have kids even less. But then again they're kids so I don't expect them to be well behaved in the
first place, I feel maturity is something that comes with age and experience (also gaining some self awareness helps too ) and can't be taught.
djphranq wrote:I'm glad my folks punished me physically when I was a kid. It builds character. Sort of. I think. Yeah.
I don't know, my parents (well, my Father and Grandmother) beat my butt like it was an Olympic event and they were going for gold...and I don't know one way or other if it built character or not...I do know that it probably kept me from turning out much worse than I did, and I think on some level it's given me some insight as to what is and isn't effective when it comes to parenting...clouting the gak out of your kids isn't going to work...not on it's own...not with out talking to them...setting boundries...letting them know what's expected of them and what types of behavior will and won't be tolerated...and you can't just discipline...you've got to encourage and build them up...give them an "atta boy/girl...let them know your doing what you do because you care about what happens to them and the sort of people they're going to grow to be...
FITZZ wrote: @ MilkDog...My point is basically that one see's kids like those quite often...at least I have, and even if the parents aren't "encouraging" it...many seem to allow it or "ignore" it..
I can honestly say that I've not gone to the store, mall, what have you once in the past several years where I haven't seen at least one example of kids behaving like the ones in that video...or worse.
Sure kids were bad in the past..hell..I was a " bad" kid myself, but ...you simply didn't see kids behaving like that as often...or parents not doing gak about it as much as you do now.
Unfortunately I don't think there's anyway one can prove or disprove if kids of the past were better behaved considering maturity is quite subjective.
Perhaps not...but...I do know that in the 42 years that I've been wandering around the planet I've certainly seen a dramatic rise in the amount of children who will stand in a supermarket and tell their mothers to go feth themselves because the mother refused them some toy or video game...and a dramatic rise in the amount of Mothers who will allow themselves to be spoken to in such a manner.
I've seen a lot of bratty and screamy kids but I haven't seen any with sailor mouths yet, still it makes me want to have kids even less. But then again they're kids so I don't expect them to be well behaved in the
first place, I feel maturity is something that comes with age and experience (also gaining some self awareness helps too ) and can't be taught.
Well I guess some lessons can be taught but I'm one of those people who has to make mistake after mistake before I get the message so depends on the kid really some need to be told, slapped,
FITZZ wrote:Perhaps not...but...I do know that in the 42 years that I've been wandering around the planet I've certainly seen a dramatic rise in the amount of children who will stand in a supermarket and tell their mothers to go feth themselves because the mother refused them some toy or video game...and a dramatic rise in the amount of Mothers who will allow themselves to be spoken to in such a manner.
Or possibly you just notice it more, because you've changed.
FITZZ wrote:Perhaps not...but...I do know that in the 42 years that I've been wandering around the planet I've certainly seen a dramatic rise in the amount of children who will stand in a supermarket and tell their mothers to go feth themselves because the mother refused them some toy or video game...and a dramatic rise in the amount of Mothers who will allow themselves to be spoken to in such a manner.
Or possibly you just notice it more, because you've changed.
You know Sebs, I've considered that....and perhaps it's partially true...but...like I said, I was a pretty bad kid...most of my friends were pretty bad kids as well, but even we knew better than to behave in the ways I've seen some ( a lot) of kids acting in the past ten or fifteen years...at least around adults..
Sure we cursed, got in fights...did all sorts of crap, but when we saw a grown up....or were around our folks...we watched our step, and that seemed to be the case with most kids when I was growing up...a kid telling his Mom to feth off would have probably gotten their head knocked off...screaming kids throwing tantrums were quickly carried out of stores...often with a smack on the butt to help them on the way....I can honestly say I never saw a child screaming and cursing there mother when I was a kid where the mother just stood there telling ( or asking) the child to " settle down or they'd be getting a time out"
Kragura wrote:
What's the difference, do you mean behaving for the sake of behaving?
No.
Self discipline is knowing the difference between being able to do something and CHOOSING NOT TO and also knowing why the difference is important.
Not so much a case of "we can do this stuff." as "Wait. Should we be doing it?".
Of course, MY self-discipline came about because we actually had children being disciplined when I was one. Children who shoplifted were "talked to" by a local police sgt (who might have overstated things, but "scared straight" was a valid tactic back then). We didn't have 'gangs' of badly behaved oiks harassing people on the street, bashing them and stealing their phones (ok, that's because we didn't have phones on us worth stealing).
Thats what i meant by behaving for the sake of behaving, doing it because it's right, not because it could cause you pain if you don't.
FITZZ wrote: You know Sebs, I've considered that....and perhaps it's partially true...but...like I said, I was a pretty bad kid...most of my friends were pretty bad kids as well, but even we knew better than to behave in the ways I've seen some ( a lot) of kids acting in the past ten or fifteen years...at least around adults..
Sure we cursed, got in fights...did all sorts of crap, but when we saw a grown up....or were around our folks...we watched our step, and that seemed to be the case with most kids when I was growing up...a kid telling his Mom to feth off would have probably gotten their head knocked off...screaming kids throwing tantrums were quickly carried out of stores...often with a smack on the butt to help them on the way....I can honestly say I never saw a child screaming and cursing there mother when I was a kid where the mother just stood there telling ( or asking) the child to " settle down or they'd be getting a time out"
Sure, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying that there's a fairly long history of people complaining that this new generation is the least disciplined we've ever had, and ruin is just around the corner, only for that generation to grow up, and complain the new crop of kids is the least disciplined ever, and so on.
But it'd be a mistake to assume that means a thing can't ever happen, and I've noticed some kids acting pretty terribly myself. So I'm not going to rule out the possibility that entitlements and parents working more hours can't have impacted children, I'm just going to say that it's really hard to tell for sure, one way or the other.
LordofMuck wrote: I am raising my own first kid, and i have yet to see ANY situation that either warrants or needs me to take physically punitive/violent means towards my child.
Really? So when your kid reaches for the electrical socket/hot stove/blender you're going take the time to explain to them why it's wrong? Or are you going to slap them on the hand and say "no" and then, when they are out of danger, explain that the appliance is dangerous?
You could just grab their hand to stop them from touching the socket/wood chipper maybe?
What happens if they try to cross the street without looking both ways? Do you sucker punch them?
ParatrooperSimon wrote:If you ever, EVER hit your child (IMO) you are a horrible parent, you never hit another human being that is smaller then you and cant defend him/herself (Why dont you smake a grown man for being silly and see how far you go. It is wrong and the most dumbest thing a parent can do. Even sending your son/daughter to bed without dinner is horribly crewl, you wont let your child eat food?...not having desert is fine. If you dont give your child one of his/her human right (which is a child must eat) you are also a horrible and terrible parent.
The only disipline that is right, is to send them to their room, and impose bans. that is all a parent should do, and if they keep acting up, you starting taking there toys/possensions away. (NO I DONT MEAN THERE bed or sleeping bits) then they will learn.
slapping a kid on his behind is still child abuse. I dont what you americans even think your doing, if I child swears, YOU SLAP THEM ON THE MOUTH!?!!?!?...no that is pretty much punching them in the face. if you slap your child I'd idvise you to see a parenting guide, or give you child to foster care, cause there not safe if you slap/smack/hit or dont let them eat.
Jesus you Americans have some funny ways of treating your kids.
Obviously you haven't seen a 5-year old puching - flat out punching! - his mother in a store because she won't buy him a toy. But just like you, she believes that enforcing discipline on a child is abuse...
CoI wrote:
Me? I'm going to smack my kids. Not a lot of course, but having seen what happens to the kids who don't know dicipline...
What? what happens to those kids?
Those kids end up pushing their crap on someone who doesn't give a feth about 'their rights' and kicks the crap out of them. Or they end up so believing in their own divinity that they end up doing stupid crap and in jail. Or worse. Or they end up being the little bastards you see everywhere jumping random people because it's fun. I see a lot of it over here in Oz. The story above about the kid outright hitting his mom while she explains things to him... saw that last week. And I don't go out much. The kids are allowed to run amuck because it's too much effort to actually teach their children to behave.
CoI wrote:
Those kids end up pushing their crap on someone who doesn't give a feth about 'their rights' and kicks the crap out of them.
If you'll read what I said above I think that's more the fault of those who are hitting there kids.
Or they end up so believing in their own divinity that they end up doing stupid crap and in jail. Or worse.
Right we need to teach those arrogant kids a lesson, Right?
Or they end up being the little bastards you see everywhere jumping random people because it's fun.
The idea that you can establish dominance by beating someone is exactly the kind of lesson hitting a kid teaches, like I said before 'might makes right'
it's too much effort to actually teach their children to behave.
Which is exactly why people hit there kids, rather than bother to teach them right from wrong they enforce there rule through fear. What then happens when that fear disappears?
The accusation of child abuse is as bad as the amount of kids being "diagnosed" with ADD or ADHD.
Real abuse are closed-fist beatings, assault with blunt objects, etc.
When I was a little gak my dad would slap me across the back of my head. Did it hurt? Hell yeah. Did I act up again? Nope. Was it abuse? Hell to the no.
Disrespect, bad attitudes, improper behavior are unacceptable. When I have kids, it'll be the same way.
I'm nearly 21 years old, and I still don't raise my voice to my parents. I don't talk back to them. I respect them just as much as when I was a kid. You know why, because they disciplined me. It's still "Yes ma'am, no ma'am" and "Yes, sir / No, sir"
DickBandit wrote:The accusation of child abuse is as bad as the amount of kids being "diagnosed" with ADD or ADHD.
Real abuse are closed-fist beatings, assault with blunt objects, etc.
When I was a little gak my dad would slap me across the back of my head. Did it hurt? Hell yeah. Did I act up again? Nope. Was it abuse? Hell to the no.
Disrespect, bad attitudes, improper behavior are unacceptable. When I have kids, it'll be the same way.
I'm nearly 21 years old, and I still don't raise my voice to my parents. I don't talk back to them. I respect them just as much as when I was a kid. You know why, because they disciplined me. It's still "Yes ma'am, no ma'am" and "Yes, sir / No, sir"
It's called respect. Something this world lacks.
Couldn't have said it better myself. You were raised the way a child should be.
DickBandit wrote:The accusation of child abuse is as bad as the amount of kids being "diagnosed" with ADD or ADHD.
Real abuse are closed-fist beatings, assault with blunt objects, etc.
When I was a little gak my dad would slap me across the back of my head. Did it hurt? Hell yeah. Did I act up again? Nope. Was it abuse? Hell to the no.
Disrespect, bad attitudes, improper behavior are unacceptable. When I have kids, it'll be the same way.
I'm nearly 21 years old, and I still don't raise my voice to my parents. I don't talk back to them. I respect them just as much as when I was a kid. You know why, because they disciplined me. It's still "Yes ma'am, no ma'am" and "Yes, sir / No, sir"
It's called respect. Something this world lacks.
Let me get this straight, you're relationship with your parents is one of respect right? and you were made to respect them through violence? so your entire relationship with your father is based on fear and violence, right?
And you don't see what's utterly wrong with that? your father might have your respect, but he certainly doesn't have mine.
And I like how you somehow are able to tell exactly what is and isn't abuse. I'm sure that parents who hit kids with blunt objects don't think that what there doing is abuse either.
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killykavekommando wrote:
Couldn't have said it better myself. You were raised the way a child should be.
He was raised to believe that dominating those weaker than you is a respectful and 'good' thing. this is exactly what I mean by discipline fething with your head.
DickBandit wrote:The accusation of child abuse is as bad as the amount of kids being "diagnosed" with ADD or ADHD.
You know what's just as fethed up? This idea that enforcing discipline comes from the thread of physical punishment, and that leads to respect.
I know folk that refuse to hit their kids, and rely entirely on time out, and their kids respect them, because they're good people, who've given their children clear standards of behaviour, and they themselves act in a manner worthy of respect. I know folk that hit their kids, and the kids are still little monsters, because the parents act entirely on emotion and don't give the kids clear standards of behaviour. And I know plenty of folk with little bastards the parents won't hit, and plenty of folk with great kids that the parents will hit.
Because whether or not you spank your kid has got absolutely nothing to do with being a good parent. If you're a bad parent who isn't there for their kid, and who can't consistently show the line between right and wrong, your kid isn't going to respect you, whether you have the thread of physical violence or not. And for a lot of parents, they're lucky enough that they don't need a physical threat to keep their kids in line.
You can be a good parent, whether or not you hit your kid. But this idea that respect has to come from physical threat is just not true.
Kragura wrote:I get that i'll be in the minority here, but I'm unconvinced that discipline is even a desirable trait, that pretty much makes all physical punishment unacceptable in my book.
Ah, kids can be amazingly stubborn and they can talk to you to death and darn-well-do-whatever-they-want-so-try-to-stop-me.
I deal with violence and stealing strongly and I would rather dish out my own "physical punishment" than have them walk all over me and eventually have to deal with the police and their version of punishment.
Empathy is still not working out too well yet (5 and 6 year old boys), the "how would you feel if they did that to you?" stops not a thing, which is a bit shocking.
I had the same viewpoint as yourself and when nothing works and it looks like your kids see no consequence and starts acting like bullies, you work hard to fix it FAST especially when other innocent well behaved children start suffering.
Really, if a kid can push a parent around, who ARE they going to respect?
For two weeks my eldest kid came home with notes of hitting and kicking kids EVERY DAY, he doesn't get to see anything past a "G" rating and I barely raise my voice so I did not know how it was modeled.
He tried to hit me once and took a couple shots at the wife till I put my foot down.
I had to look my kid in the eye and say that for every time he hits someone he would get a spank "no matter what".
He had to try it out three times, arguing, negotiating, lying and in under a week no more hitting for months.
Had to remind him that this punishment was "his choice" not mine.
Anyway I agree with my dad, it hurts me more than him, he seems to forget it faster....
Talizvar wrote:Ah, kids can be amazingly stubborn and they can talk to you to death and darn-well-do-whatever-they-want-so-try-to-stop-me.
Yeah, there definitely needs to be a clear 'you're doing what I say because I say it' element. Kids don't always know best, and reason will only take you so far (either because the kid doesn't want to hear it, or because he simply doesn't have the faculties yet to reason his way through the issue).
Empathy is still not working out too well yet (5 and 6 year old boys), the "how would you feel if they did that to you?" stops not a thing, which is a bit shocking.
Empathy develops over time. Kids generally have an instinctive level from an early age, but the ability to actually stop and use empathy to reason through why they shouldn't do something that they really want to do comes somewhere between 8 and 11.
it's too much effort to actually teach their children to behave.
Which is exactly why people hit there kids, rather than bother to teach them right from wrong they enforce there rule through fear. What then happens when that fear disappears?
Ah, kids start off with a fair bit of amoral behavior.
Some are more naturally angry/happy than others as part of their nature (my kids are polar opposites).
We can demonstrate descent, kind behavior and hope they emulate it.
If it is loud and attention grabbing they tend to notice that more.
Understanding consequence seems to have no effect till about 6-7 years old I have seen.
Telling them of other ways to do things rather than get frustrated IS helpful.
But I tell you, there are times no matter how understanding and creative you are they do not care one tiny bit about you or anyone else if there is not some physical limit to their ambitions. Are you nice to a complete stranger because you are happy and bubbly or because it is better to be polite "just in case".
Kids like to know the rules. It makes them nervous when there is no system and punishment.
Brother A could be free to ransack brother B's room and all manner of chaos would ensue.
Stable loving home make nice kids to be proud of, no rules and lots of talk is just that: talk.
Kragura wrote:But my point isn't that talking it out with them is a nicer alternative, it's that it's the only way to teach them right from wrong.
If a child lacks empathy I fail to see what punishment is going to teach them.
If they have empathy then punishment teaches them the wrong lesson
If an older child lacks empathy I believe that would likely be an example of psyopathy, and I wouldn't oppose restricting them from society entirely.
Talk is often ignored by the wee little dictators and they can say "why" 24-7.
The "do as I say" tends to kick in for emergencies or when the child has managed to dawdle a full hour and we are late for something.
As one of the other esteemed posters said; it does not happen till around 8yrs before empathy happens.
Pain was developed by nature for us to avoid things bad for us, it will do until they get their little minds developed.
If they had empathy, punishment is not really necessary right?
"Restricting them from society"???? We do this how? Who decides? The world is full of narcissists running free in the world (first main symptom: lack of empathy).
Please give my kids a chance before they get locked away for the greater good... so we stop talking to them before exhausting all alternatives?
I suppose we can all subscribe to the "everyone wins" society as well? Competition, discomfort, joy, exhilaration, drive, stubbornness are all things that in one way or another can push you to greatness.
My kids may be a handful but they do not fear me, they find me fun and they are very much their own person.
They have curiosity, drive and march to their own drum.
They have wicked ways of looking at things and they DO drive me crazy but I somehow feel better for the world with them in it, they will do the right thing... eventually.
People with no empathy are already restricted from society, as I said, they are psychopaths and we recognise them as such.
"If they had empathy, punishment is not really necessary right?" to an extent yes, although empathy is not the only thing that makes a 'good person' a solid rational moral code also goes with it, that's the hard bit about raising a kid and it's why hitting them is such a bad idea.
Talizvar wrote:Stable loving home make nice kids to be proud of, no rules and lots of talk is just that: talk.
No hitting doesn't mean no rules. It just means the punishment takes the form of losing toys, being put in time out, stuff like that, and not actually being hit.
It doesn't even mean no physical control, if a child is a threat to himself or someone else he could still be restrained, it's just that any subsequent punishment wouldn't include hitting them to cause physical pain.
The only time i find it reasonable to actually strike a child is, if they've stroken you before hand.
Even though, i'd never ever want to find myself in the need of such measures, as i find it outrageous to exercise physical punishment. Even if i knew that it would be the most suited action in a given situation, i'd hate it!
Allthough; different kids require different kinds of attention. Some needs more structure than other.
I myself come from a home with a great lack of structure. I was, more or less, left to myself all the way through my childhood. It has affected me in a awful many ways through out my life. Not having had the proper attention i required can be just as destructive - but in a different way!
- So basically, compared to alot of your open-hearted posts about how you've been punished, i can speak for the opposite; Lack of punishment can be just as bad - if not worse(?).
Though, i've never felt tempted to either drugs, violence or any form of criminal activity or bad behaviour. It's just never been a part of my nature, i guess?
- OTOH, this lack of structure has made common things harder later on. Where other children have had it served by being punished, i've been let to my own lectures (which haven't been the most constructive kind - obviously!).
Personally, i wouldn't have the heart to strike a child. Ever. It's far from both what comes naturally, and from what i've been taught - both from social stamp and cultural belief. But i would never walk the same path, as my parentes and neglect a child. Punishment is a part of the childs needs. It's either that, or turn the kid into a social oddity (such as me) or worse.
I do, however, often find a great distinction between whats socially/culturally acceptable, and what parent find to be most suited. In the end, it may all come down to which kind of person the child itself is, and the level of attention and/or measures required for each individual. Some might say that having their mouths washed with soap taught them not to swear. Others that a slap in the face kept them from killing off their chances later in life. But another part of it all, as i'm trying to stress, is that we're all different - even as kids - and that each case, as said, requires different measures. One kid may benefit most from a slap in the behind, whereas another may benefit from getting grounded.
The thing Im laughing at on this thread, is most, if not ALL the people against disciplining your children, dont even HAVE children, therefore your arguments really are invalid. You dont have that experience. And NO watching someone elses kid doesnt really count towards HAVING a child, its a totally different arrangement. My oldest brother, before having a child, swore up and down he wouldnt raise his hand to his child, and he read books and has a 4 year degree in psychology yadda yadda yadda, he just KNEW that his smart approach to raising children was superior then how my brother the Giant and I do it, the way we were raised. Well finally the day comes and he becomes a dad, did his approach work at all? No. Not even close.
You cant reason with a child, it simply doesnt work. You ca explain time and time again, why its bad to hit, why its bad to pull hair, spit on kids, bite, break toys, take toys, you name it. Will it stop them? Maybe, but usually they just glaze over and ignore you, and go right back at it 3 minutes from now. Infact my niece is terrible, you can tell her to not do something, and she turns right around and does it over and over and over again. As soon as I swat her ass, she cries like a baby and stops. Period. My children know that when I tell them no, that means no, they wont do it for a long time (because children forget, you gotta stay on them for these things) my kids are well behaved and mind me and my wife, they no right from wrong and as Ive said many times before, it shows, same with the Giants children, they mind, they are respectful to others, the LISTEN. I can tell them once, hey cut that gak out, and they DO, why? Because their father has taught them the same way were were, you dont listen and act up, your getting an ass whopping.
Of course I realize there are different ways to punish kids, I dont instantly start the spankings and mouth slappings when my children do something wrong. Infact I havnt had to spank either of them in weeks. Nose on the wall works pretty well, sitting on the couch and doing nothing for a few hours really gets to my son. The point is though, noses on the wall and time outs only work some of the time, sometimes swatting their ass is the only way to truly get that point across
Tears of eternal torment? Holy hell, you are laying it on thick, Im talking real thick. But agree to disagree, I dont feel like arguing how to raise children with someone that doesnt have children to raise. You watch them thats it
You realize that there's more ways to discipline your child than physical pain, yes?
I'm not afraid to spank him, but if I REALLY want my make my nephews cry I'll put them in time out.
Well, as you yourself noted in this thread ( somewhere) various kids respond to various forms if discipline in various ways...but I can agree with KC ( and you) that " soft parenting" rarely works...
Never heard it called soft parenting, Ill have to remember that. A perfect example of that though, is my wife and her siblings. Her parents never EVER spanked them or anything along those lines it was always trying to explain why they were wrong. Now my wife, is a pretty solid person really (though she also believes that discipline is the way to go with kids) her sister, is 36, a bar hound, lives with her parents still and goes from terrible relationship to terrible relationship, basically her life is a total wreck. Her brother, is in the military, and nearly retired, BUT, hes been divorced, doesnt speak to his kids, infact they think of me as more a father figure then he is sadly, is a full blown alcoholic, lets his wife cheat on him constantly and makes sure to live as far away from the rest of his family as possible.
Pretty sad really, but its all in how they were raised, Im still curious how my wife turned out ok
KingCracker wrote:Tears of eternal torment? Holy hell, you are laying it on thick, Im talking real thick. But agree to disagree, I dont feel like arguing how to raise children with someone that doesnt have children to raise. You watch them thats it
No, they're just hypochondriacs whom think that they can hide behind crying because of my grandmother.
My parents almost never spanked me... I've gotten in to FAR less trouble than most kids. Spanking isn't a substitute for good parenting. It's just a tool that attempts to focus the mind of the child on the consequences of their actions. When overused, it doesn't work.
Explain it how you want. Again, your watching children, not raising them. Come back after youve had your own and they are in gradeschool. Tell me then how its working out for you. Because I can say as of right now, my son is in 1st grade and is one of the tops in his class, and Ive been told is easily the most well behaved. My daughter is in SKIP (basically preschool) and is loved by the faculty, shares well and is tracking fantastically. So I can say my parenting methods work pretty damn well. Same with my brother the Giant, his son is the smartest in is grade, and does 6th grade math instead, his middle is top of her class, and their youngest isnt the brightest in class, but she actually works with her teacher, by herself came up with this, to figure out the things that stump her.
Melissia wrote:No, they're just hypochondriacs whom think that they can hide behind crying because of my grandmother.
Glad to see you're justifying your mental and social abuse of children.
Do you think that abusing a child through physical and social isolation is preferable to corporal punishment?
I think that using the best tools I have to get them to realize that I'm quite serious and not taking their crap, then explaining what they did was wrong while they realize that, is preferable-- whatever that tool is.
KingCracker wrote:Explain it how you want. Again, your watching children, not raising them.
I've seen, been around, cooked for, and generally cared for my nephews more than their parents have (the older one thankfully less so after he started going to school).
I have a banking account. Once a month, I goto the bank, and do some banking. I understand how banking works now. So according to your logic, and the way you keep at it, I can know use my knowledge to go into any bank, and tell the professional bankers, how to do their jobs. Why not, I DO know how banking works.
So change the context from banking to children, and professional bankers to professional parents. Its the same argument. Now am I right? Can I just tell those bankers Im right and they are wrong, because I play around in their bank from time to time? Answer that honestly, if you can really do that.
KingCracker wrote:So according to your logic, and the way you keep at it, I can know use my knowledge to go into any bank, and tell the professional bankers
No.
Your analogy fails on so many levels, KingCracker, that I'm not even sure where one fail starts and the next fail begins. For one, the idea of a "professional parent" is amusing at best, and even if they do exist my sister isn't one of them. She's had no training, she dropped out of college (she was going to be a psychology major, but failed hard and complained beginner's level courses at a community college were was too hard so she dropped out and hasn't come back), and only barely managed to get through high school. Furthermore, I spend more time around her children than she does.
If you wanted to press me, I would indeed say I'm more qualified for the job than she is.
For some the worst punishment is being cut off from their social life, for these kids taking away their phones/grounding them/taking away their laptops.
For some kids it is taking away their books or films, for some it is physical punishment.
Kragura wrote:People with no empathy are already restricted from society
They're also called children, and children are allowed to roam free...
Reread my original post on empathy, I agree with you.
biccat wrote:
Kragura wrote:People with no empathy are already restricted from society, as I said, they are psychopaths and we recognise them as such.
Not exactly.
Psychopaths are pretty hard to detect, and they're only restricted from society when they've done something wrong.
Yes but that irrelevant to our conversation because either way, hitting them will not solve it. the only thing we can do for them is what we already do.
KingCracker wrote: if not ALL the people against disciplining your children, dont even HAVE children, therefore your arguments really are invalid.
Therefore we cant discuss history, politics, or anything that we a directly a part in. If you have some experience share it with us as you did.
KingCracker wrote: I can tell them once, hey cut that gak out, and they DO, why?
Because there terrified of you, what happens when they don't have you to fear? What happens when they try to apply your parenting lessons* to the real world?
*might makes right, beat others to get your way. etc
Kragura wrote:People with no empathy are already restricted from society, as I said, they are psychopaths and we recognise them as such.
Not exactly.
Psychopaths are pretty hard to detect, and they're only restricted from society when they've done something wrong.
Yes but that irrelevant to our conversation because either way, hitting them will not solve it. the only thing we can do for them is what we already do.
I was responding to your absolute statement that people who don't have empathy are restricted from society. That statement is false, therefore any conclusions one draws from that statement are, at best, questionable.
Kragura wrote:
KingCracker wrote: I can tell them once, hey cut that gak out, and they DO, why?
Because there terrified of you, what happens when they don't have you to fear? What happens when they try to apply your parenting lessons* to the real world?
*might makes right, beat others to get your way. etc
As someone who was raised on spankings and being hit by my parents for doing something wrong, I can assure you that I have never beat others to get my way. I have never tried to apply the parenting lesson of "might makes right" to the real world in the manner you describe.
There are also examples of "soft parenting" that have led to kids who are violent and abusive. Should we use your rationale and blame the soft parents for their kids engaging in violence?
Kragura, you seem to think that spanking equals 'might makes right'. I think that's where you're getting mixed up. You don't hit the kids to be the big man in charge. People, expecially children, associate pain with bad things. It doesn't have to be much pain, but it works. It's the shock and surprise that is the most useful. They realize that what they've done isn't right, and remember. Talking to them usually doesn't work. And as others have said, do it to much and they just stop caring.
As for the empathy thing? Most children are little psycho's. Up until 8ish, they have very little empathy, as stated. Difference is, they grow out of it. Real psychos don't, and beating them won't solve anything, unless you go too far, then it solves the problem of where you're living for the next 20-life.
You don't use physicial punishment as a first choice of course. That _is_ abuse. But if you've given them time outs, talked with them, taken away their toys, and it's not working, often a smack on the rear will solve that little issue right quick. They don't live in fear becuase of it either. They forget the incident, but remember the lesson (usually, sometimes it takes a few times for it to sink in). My parents hit me, and I wasn't afraid of them in the slightest. Afraid of angering them? yes. Afraid of dissapointing them? yes. Afraid that if they ever caught me doing half the stuff I did (and I was one of the good ones) that my body would never be found? yes. Would the last one be a serious fear? of course not.
KingCracker wrote: I can tell them once, hey cut that gak out, and they DO, why?
Because there terrified of you, what happens when they don't have you to fear? What happens when they try to apply your parenting lessons* to the real world?
*might makes right, beat others to get your way. etc
What happens when they are out of my reach of fear? Simple, they behave like well mannered children, and have done so many times, if you read my whole post, you would of caught that part, about schools and such. Its not fear at all, its knowing how to act. Period.
Melissia - I didnt fail in my example at all. Your focusing on one part of it, me saying professional banker/parents. I honestly think you just didnt want to answer my question honestly, because I was correct in my point, not you. And your too opinionated to admit it. I used your very same logic, in a different situation and you didnt like the out come.
And AGAIN, weather you spend more time with your nephews or not, I dunno, I dont know you or your families situation. But until the day comes that you have full blown custody of them, or have your own kids, your views on raising children will be on a lesser level then a successful parent, and by successful I mean a professional parent, someone that does it full time, all the time. Baby sitting doesnt really count, you watch them, you get sick of them, you give them back.
Spanking is good because sometimes time outs just don't work. Now if you really want to punish kids who are fighting with each other you can have them sit down and hug each other. If you do timeout I think its suggested that its one minute for each year they are old.
Spankings need to be controlled because if you spank out of anger then you're not punishing a kid you're beating them. My mom used syllables in a sentence about what we shouldn't do. Things like "You will not hit your brother." would mean seven swats.
When I was a kid, if my father spanked me/hit me, whatever, It never taught me anything.
I never thought "Oh wow, I shouldn't do that again", I always just thought how ridiculous it was for him to do that.
If I do something you don't want me to do, tell me and explain why, and I won't do it again if I agree with you.
I was never taught discipline by being hit, but maybe I'm different from other people. If or when I have kids, I would reserve the smack for only intentional acts of disrespect. I want to teach my child what my father didn't teach me, and god damn was I lucky that I was pretty damn bright as a kid compared to others in my situation.
I would never want him to grow up like I did, and I'll teach my children with words and wisdom more than my hand.
KingCracker wrote:I honestly think you just didnt want to answer my question honestly, because I was correct in my point
No, you did not. Your comparison was a massive failure no matter how hard you want to try.
My sister is not a trained professional. She's a random girl who schpadoinked some jerk-off, got knocked up, married him, got abused by him, divorced him, then schpadoinked another dude and got knocked up by him too, then married him. The banker, on the other hand, is a trained professional whom has more likely than not gone through the education system-- they've EARNED their status and they are fully qualified for their job. I have more experience with children than she does, EVEN HER OWN CHILDREN. The banker on the other hand does banking as their job, their LIFE. My sister takes every chance she can to not raise her children and instead foist them on other people, particularly me and our mother. If a banker tried to do that with their banking profession, they'd get fired. Really, there is no part of the scenario you presented which is applicable. None. At all.
The question was therefor invalid. You are not right. You are so wrong that the logic you used is almost painful to my brain. It is not logic. It is anti-logic. If it comes in to contact with real logic, it implodes. As it has done.
Your caught up on your sisters failures as a parent(apparently) and me saying professional banker/parent. Stop dancing in circles and saying I failed at my point. My point, plain and simple, was that YOUR LOGIC on this discussion was and is wrong and invalid. So please, for the 3rd time, answer my original question. Other wise, your just wasting your time pretending Im wrong.
KingCracker wrote:Of course I realize there are different ways to punish kids, I dont instantly start the spankings and mouth slappings when my children do something wrong. Infact I havnt had to spank either of them in weeks. Nose on the wall works pretty well, sitting on the couch and doing nothing for a few hours really gets to my son. The point is though, noses on the wall and time outs only work some of the time, sometimes swatting their ass is the only way to truly get that point across
... for some people. Plenty of parents get by just fine without spanking.
That's really the ridiculous thing in this thread, everyone declaring there's only one way to raise kids, and that's the way that worked for them (or stranger, the way they think will work for them when they have kids).
Some parents find spanking works for them. Some parents don't. It is totally okay that different people do things differently.
Really that is true, and has been mentioned a few times over. What works on one kid, doesnt automatically work on others. And like Ive said, I dont just dish out spankings just cause, I punish my kids in many different ways, that seem fitting to what they did. But I can honestly say, that spanking seems to work better, more times then just trying to talk to the child. Ive seen many of my friends grow up just fine, and had grown up getting spankings, and Ive seen MORE friends, grow up with real life problems, when their parents just wanted to talk things out.
Also, alot of what I was saying was countering Melissia, which has turned into a "I dont want to play along, so your a doody head" so, before it turns into a flame fest, Im just ignoring her.
Gotta get them to listen beforehand for that to work. The brats scream if you so much as look at them wrong, no matter what they're doing-- ESPECIALLY if they're doing something they know is wrong. Little ****s, trained by bad parenting and bad grandparenting.
The older one less so thankfully, but the younger one? Feth...
My dad always whooped my ass if I did something bad but I usually deserved it.
Also, Is anyone else disgusted by the Judge beating his daughter for using the internet? I know I am, If my step-dad tried some dumb gak on me like that (note she is 16) i'd sock him right in the jaw. Idgaf if he's a judge.
KingCracker wrote:Really that is true, and has been mentioned a few times over. What works on one kid, doesnt automatically work on others. And like Ive said, I dont just dish out spankings just cause, I punish my kids in many different ways, that seem fitting to what they did. But I can honestly say, that spanking seems to work better, more times then just trying to talk to the child. Ive seen many of my friends grow up just fine, and had grown up getting spankings, and Ive seen MORE friends, grow up with real life problems, when their parents just wanted to talk things out.
Yeah, is cool.
I can't say I've seen any greater number of kids come out bad because of not spanking, or because of spanking. I dare say compared to the things that really matter, spanking just doesn't impact how they turn out. YMMV, though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karon wrote:Your kids learn nothing, and don't understand anything when all you say is "DON'T DO THAT CUZ I SAID SO" and hit them.
You earn respect and understanding when you talk to a child first, and then at the end threaten them if they do it again, they'll get smacked.
Maybe. Or to gain control of the situation you can issue an immediate punishment, including a spanking when they don't follow your instructions, and then when the situation has calmed down you can explain what went wrong.
I can't say I've seen any greater number of kids come out bad because of not spanking, or because of spanking. I dare say compared to the things that really matter, spanking just doesn't impact how they turn out. YMMV, though.
As I said, it's just a tool. Like any tool though, it definitely can be overused...
Just have to use the right tool for the situation...
I don't support any "shoot first, ask questions later" sort of approach with your CHILDREN.
They're humans. As long as they are not very young (at which point, striking them shouldn't even come into your mind) they will understand it mentally, and it will show later.
If they are stubborn and continue to disrespect/ignore you after you have explained the situation to them, a stern glare or hand to the mouth is your last resort.
I don't support any "shoot first, ask questions later" sort of approach with your CHILDREN.
They're humans. As long as they are not very young (at which point, striking them shouldn't even come into your mind) they will understand it mentally, and it will show later.
If they are stubborn and continue to disrespect/ignore you after you have explained the situation to them, a stern glare or hand to the mouth is your last resort.
And coming from a kid with no children. Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Go ahead and talk to a 2-3 y/o and see where that gets ya. A swat on the butt fixes those problems real fast. But Im seriously done with this thread, you lot are making my head spin. Come back in 10 years after youve all had some children time, and see how much you laugh at yourself
Karon wrote:If they are stubborn and continue to disrespect/ignore you after you have explained the situation to them, a stern glare or hand to the mouth is your last resort.
"Dad glared at me, oh noes!"
Honestly, Most bratty kids and spoiled feths I see just need a good ole' ass whoopin'.
It's too bad they can pick up the phone and say some bs and have you arrested for disciplining them, and I know: "HITTING YOUR KIDS IS NEVER THE ANSWER!"
Well, Putting that melon-fether in a corner for 20 minutes doesn't work very well either.
I don't support any "shoot first, ask questions later" sort of approach with your CHILDREN.
They're humans. As long as they are not very young (at which point, striking them shouldn't even come into your mind) they will understand it mentally, and it will show later.
If they are stubborn and continue to disrespect/ignore you after you have explained the situation to them, a stern glare or hand to the mouth is your last resort.
And coming from a kid with no children. Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Go ahead and talk to a 2-3 y/o and see where that gets ya. A swat on the butt fixes those problems real fast. But Im seriously done with this thread, you lot are making my head spin. Come back in 10 years after youve all had some children time, and see how much you laugh at yourself
You can discredit me all you want. You can go ahead and teach your children like your father did you, that was my fathers excuse for his ways.
Leonus Cohol wrote:
Karon wrote:If they are stubborn and continue to disrespect/ignore you after you have explained the situation to them, a stern glare or hand to the mouth is your last resort.
"Dad glared at me, oh noes!"
Honestly, Most bratty kids and spoiled feths I see just need a good ole' ass whoopin'.
It's too bad they can pick up the phone and say some bs and have you arrested for disciplining them, and I know: "HITTING YOUR KIDS IS NEVER THE ANSWER!"
Well, Putting that melon-fether in a corner for 20 minutes doesn't work very well either.
Since a lot of childless people are giving voice to their child rearing philosophy’s here I guess I’ll weigh in some more…
I think something also needs to be said for consistency.
IMO the reason most "soft parenting" fails is because the parents are unwilling to set clear boundaries and unwilling to stick to their guns when those boundaries s are crossed. If you make a rule and only enforce that rule 50% of the time, the child will break that rule every time they think they can get away with it.
This also is true for the severity of the punishment. If crossing the street in front of the house is something that is disallowed, and they do it anyway. The punishment should be either the same every time, or should get progressively worse each successive time.
Also the more time spent with your kids will increase the old you have over them. The more you play with them when they are little the more they will look up to you when they get older. Then your disproval will carry more weight.
Watching TV with your kids does not count as spending time with them IMO
biccat wrote:
I was responding to your absolute statement that people who don't have empathy are restricted from society. That statement is false, therefore any conclusions one draws from that statement are, at best, questionable.
I don't draw any conclusions from that statement, it was a aside as to what we (at least attempt) to do to those without empathy.
biccat wrote:As someone who was raised on spankings and being hit by my parents for doing something wrong, I can assure you that I have never beat others to get my way. I have never tried to apply the parenting lesson of "might makes right" to the real world in the manner you describe.
As someone who was also raised on this rational neither have I. That doesn't change the fact that that's the lesson you teach kids when you hit them, and it doesn't change the fact that this is a bad lesson.
biccat wrote:There are also examples of "soft parenting" that have led to kids who are violent and abusive. Should we use your rationale and blame the soft parents for their kids engaging in violence?
No, but I wouldn't use this reasoning. There's a multitude of factors that go into raising a child and whether or not you hit them is only one of those, but once again that doesn't change the fact that hitting them teaches a bad lesson.
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CoI wrote: People, expecially children, associate pain with bad things.
I don't think that's true at all, I associate pain with getting hurt. In fact I think I would more likely associate pleasure with doing bad things, followed, I would hope, with guilt and remorse.
When you hit a child they don't think "I did a bad thing" why would they? they think "what I did displeased Mummy/Daddy, so they hit me" but "Mummy/Daddy is good" therefore "it's okay to hurt those who annoy you"
KingCracker wrote:
KingCracker wrote:
I can tell them once, hey cut that gak out, and they DO, why?
Because there terrified of you, what happens when they don't have you to fear? What happens when they try to apply your parenting lessons* to the real world?
*might makes right, beat others to get your way. etc
What happens when they are out of my reach of fear? Simple, they behave like well mannered children, and have done so many times, if you read my whole post, you would of caught that part, about schools and such. Its not fear at all, its knowing how to act. Period.
.
But then there not are they, they of course still have you there to get mad at them. I meant more along the lines of "if they get bigger than you", in all honesty they'll probably be fine, people are able to pick up some good moral lessons from anywhere. The problem is that your not teaching them good moral lessons, in fact you're probably contradicting a lot of them.
CoI wrote:They forget the incident, but remember the lesson
My dad smoked, gambled, and drank when i was small...it lessened as I grew older but has now returned. I cannot respect such a man and wouldn't even flinch if he died. He hit and yelled at me too...merely for disobeying him...not ever because I am wrong. I would never hit my own blood. (except maybe my dad....and only if it wasn't against the law ) But like most of you, I agree my child(s) will need strong discipline and iron bound rules to live by, else they face consequences suitable for their actions. They can question my rules as they get older, but authority should always belong to the parents.
I don't support any "shoot first, ask questions later" sort of approach with your CHILDREN.
They're humans. As long as they are not very young (at which point, striking them shouldn't even come into your mind) they will understand it mentally, and it will show later.
If they are stubborn and continue to disrespect/ignore you after you have explained the situation to them, a stern glare or hand to the mouth is your last resort.
And coming from a kid with no children. Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Go ahead and talk to a 2-3 y/o and see where that gets ya. A swat on the butt fixes those problems real fast. But Im seriously done with this thread, you lot are making my head spin. Come back in 10 years after youve all had some children time, and see how much you laugh at yourself
You can discredit me all you want. You can go ahead and teach your children like your father did you, that was my fathers excuse for his ways.
Leonus Cohol wrote:
Karon wrote:If they are stubborn and continue to disrespect/ignore you after you have explained the situation to them, a stern glare or hand to the mouth is your last resort.
"Dad glared at me, oh noes!"
Honestly, Most bratty kids and spoiled feths I see just need a good ole' ass whoopin'.
It's too bad they can pick up the phone and say some bs and have you arrested for disciplining them, and I know: "HITTING YOUR KIDS IS NEVER THE ANSWER!"
Well, Putting that melon-fether in a corner for 20 minutes doesn't work very well either.
I see where this thread has devolved now.
I'm just sayin, Putting Kids in the corner doesn't always work. If your kid flips gak constantly, I doubt looking at them or explaining something would do much. I think your methods are very nice an I wished they worked but thats just the way it is.
Kids simply do not give a feth.
Ma55ter_fett wrote:IMO the reason most "soft parenting" fails is because the parents are unwilling to set clear boundaries and unwilling to stick to their guns when those boundaries s are crossed. If you make a rule and only enforce that rule 50% of the time, the child will break that rule every time they think they can get away with it.
I agree that this is a problem, but it's a problem with those whom prefer corporeal punishment, too-- they often overpunish in some areas and underpunish in others, depending on their mood and how aggressive they're feeling at the time.
"Daddy's in a grumpy mood, so now he's spanking me with his heaviest belt for speaking out of turn, but a week ago he was in a great mood so I got away with a temper tantrum that broke a chair and all I got was a slap on the wrist!"
Inconsistency is a problem for all parenting styles, and nothing turns corporeal punishment into a worthless tool like someone dealing out punishment inconsistently. It happens just as often if not more often than "soft parenting" being used inconsistently...
Leonus Cohol wrote:Kids simply do not give a feth.
Most kids do care what their parents think, even if they try to deny it...
Some honestly don't, but usually that's because they have crappy parents to begin with...
But then there not are they, they of course still have you there to get mad at them. I meant more along the lines of "if they get bigger than you", in all honesty they'll probably be fine, people are able to pick up some good moral lessons from anywhere. The problem is that your not teaching them good moral lessons, in fact you're probably contradicting a lot of them.
You are missing the point completely. I dont get mad at my children, a parent shouldnt get mad at their children. And I certainly dont use that to punish them. As the parent, Im the law maker, Im the guidelines, Im the boundaries. Its my job to make sure they dont cross those and stay in line. Its not about them breaking a rule so now you feel PAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its about me being the parent. Im allowed to have fun with my kids, and make sure their childhood is at least as enjoyable as mine was, but when they break the rules or step out of line, I also have to be the one that punishes them for it. As a parent you cannot be pals with your child, Im not here to be their best friend and their buddy, they will step all over you f you pull that crap. You have to be a balance of everything to make them the best person they could be. So when its time to be nice and fun Dad, thats what I am, but when its time to lay down the law, thats what I do. It has nothing to do with anger and making them scared.
My kids behave when they arnt with me, because they know thats what a good person does, it has nothing to do with fear at all.
My father is a total waste of skin who ditched his family before i hit the 'difficult teen' stage. He would kick the everliving gak out of us at the slightest provocation. He once booted me square in the guts for locking the bathroom door (to use the toilet in peace) because it was my kid sisters bedtime and i was preventing her from brushing her teeth. He also crushed my fingers in the hinge side of the door when i slammed it (not in a fit of pique, but youthfull exuberance) his version of physical discipline was (to me) definately over the top.
On the other hand my mother only ever smacked me twice, maybe three times when i really deserved it, had been warned, and decide to push my luck. She's like the tiniest woman, probably weighs less than 100lbs wringing wet, so the pain wasn't the deterrent, more the fact that i pushed so far out of line that she felt the need to go against her usually gentle nature and physically discipline me. Usually the phrase 'I'm not angry, just disappointed...' was enough!
Im allowed to have fun with my kids, and make sure their childhood is at least as enjoyable as mine was, but when they break the rules or step out of line, I also have to be the one that punishes them for it. As a parent you cannot be pals with your child
This in a nutshell.
The best I have heard it said was that kids are like animals, train them, and they usually turn out okay.
Kids that don't have boundaries and have little or no continuity or routine to follow often have no fething clue how to behave.
Kragura wrote:As someone who was also raised on this rational neither have I. That doesn't change the fact that that's the lesson you teach kids when you hit them, and it doesn't change the fact that this is a bad lesson.
Well, given that you acknowledge the falsity of your assertion that kids who are spanked/hit act out in a similar way when they get older, I'm not sure what is left to discuss.
Spanking, slapping, or hitting a kid when they do something wrong (as punishment, not as a beating) doesn't teach them that "might makes right" or any other "bad lesson." (Assuming, of course, that might makes right is a bad lesson).
Say a 2-year-old reaches for the stove. Instead of slapping her hand and saying "No" in a stern voice, I grab her hand and say "no honey, that's not safe." Her response will be "Why?"
Now, do you want to go down the 20-minute "why" highway, or do you simply say "because I said so" (note that the 20-minute conversation will end up with "because I said so" and the 2-year-old won't remember any of it)? You're ending up with the same "bad lesson" you complained about ("might makes right"/defer to my authority because I'm the parent). But you don't get the deterrant effect.
Usually it's more likie five seconds. "It'll burn you and hurt really bad."
Why?
"Because it's too hot. Now go play in thie living room while I finish making dinner." Usually this is enough in my experience. If they do ask why again, I'd tell them: "I'll tell you when I'm done making dinner." Then explain when I'm not so busy.
Melissia wrote:"Because it's too hot. Now go play in thie living room while I finish making dinner."
Why?
Melissia wrote:"I'll tell you when I'm done making dinner."
Why?
It seems you don't really get the game. They're not interested in an explanation, they want to annoy you and/or keep you talking. Kids aren't able to remember long conversations or reasons for doing something, treating them as if they do is inappropriate.
I have no children of my own but having been a child (which I believe like most of us , maybe...), I believe I can give a bit of insight into the whole discipline thing, at least from my prespective.
I am currently 26, having a job in my field of study in the public sector which pays extremely well, have never had a run in with the law, and generally well respected from my superiors and peers. I was raised while being part of a church until I was 7, when we moved away from the extremely small town we lived in due to the distance my father had to drive to work, which I rarely got to see him when I was young. We never really returned back to going to church after moving. But, I can remember vividly getting switched, spanked with hand, paddle, and belt, and then an occasional beating due to causing either one of my parents major grief.
One in particular day, I can remember receiving a beating for doing something that I was not suppose to do, I do not remember what but I sure remember seeing my father's face and his wide swinging hand, basically completely lunging at me to hit me. The thing is, while at the time, it scared me to death to see him do this and it hurt. But looking back at it now, it was such a insignificant event in my life. It got the point across to me, at that time, that I should have not done what I did, and should not do it again, and it was based on fear, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread. But I do not respect my father out of fear anymore, but respect him as a parent who raised me. I have no resentment toward him because of this. The same goes for my mother for all the flexible pieces of wood or clothes hangers she would find and swat me many times.
My mother told me several times of a story of when I was extremely young, too young to remember the event. When I was still in diapers, I would just constantly just keep going in them, completely overflowing them. I wouldn't care. She would try to potty train me and I just didn't want to learn. One day, I just let it keep going so much that it just completely spills out all over the floor and my mother just completely lost it. She said that she beat me and that she couldn't stop. After this happened, she said that she cried because of what she did to me but after that happened, I learned to use the toilet and never gave her any issues after that event.
It's funny, people speak about punishment and believing that physical punishment is why children grow up to be abusers. I am not sure how I feel about the issue. I do not have any children of my own so it's hard to come up with an answer without having any experience. It would seem, to me, that logic shows that physical punishment for particularly bad behaviors helps reinforce that bad behavior is unacceptible. But the way I feel, personally, I am not sure if I could spank a child unless I just became so angered by their actions, which then is the wrong thing to do. This may have to do with the fact that I never grew up with having to take care of younger sliblings due to them being basically the same age or older than I.
I also recall one event here at work, where a co-worker was speaking to another about his daughter going to college and having a few issues with her. I remember him saying something that I think will stick with me. As a parent of a child, your not there to be their friend.
Gee, my kids well behaved and I have never spanked them. I find reason, denial of priviledges, and rewarding correct behavior works much better.
Huh?
I guess that means it isn't necessary to swack my kid to get their attention to behave.
I've known several parents who took this position and handled their kids in this way. To a one they thought their kid were well behaved angels. To a one their kids were the most out of control little gak heads you've ever met.
Melissia wrote:"Because it's too hot. Now go play in thie living room while I finish making dinner."
Why?
Melissia wrote:"I'll tell you when I'm done making dinner."
Why?
It seems you don't really get the game. They're not interested in an explanation, they want to annoy you and/or keep you talking. Kids aren't able to remember long conversations or reasons for doing something, treating them as if they do is inappropriate.
My niece and nephews have given up on asking me why, I generally get cryptic and tend to do it back. Our family's children know better than to play those games with Unka Auston, I have years of practice.
Azza007 wrote:So in your view what is acceptable in terms of discipline and when does it start crossing the line.
I believe, as my parents do, that discipline should never be done out of anger (because then it is more about revenge than justice or discipline).
I believe discipline is about your love of the child. If you truly care for your child, you will weed out bad behavior through whatever means necessary (whether by the rod or less-harsh methods). I appreciate that my parents have cared for me enough that they have strongly disciplined me in my youth, though I did not appreciate it at the time.
If tell a child not to do something, I consider it extremely probable that they will commit the same crime again.
If you discipline a child lightly, they will most likely commit the same crime again.
If you discipline a child moderately, they will certainly hesitate before committing the sin again.
If you discipline a child strongly, they will never commit that sin again. (And I know this from experience.)
Call it abuse if you will, but you are helping your child.
The only two things I believe the parent can do wrong is discipline you while angry, or discipline you so much that you are damaged mentally or physically.
The Bringer wrote:If tell a child not to do something, I consider it extremely probable that they will commit the same crime again.
If you discipline a child lightly, they will most likely commit the same crime again.
If you discipline a child moderately, they will certainly hesitate before committing the sin again.
If you discipline a child strongly, they will never commit that sin again. (And I know this from experience.)
Melissia wrote:
"Daddy's in a grumpy mood, so now he's spanking me with his heaviest belt for speaking out of turn, but a week ago he was in a great mood so I got away with a temper tantrum that broke a chair and all I got was a slap on the wrist!"
Inconsistency is a problem for all parenting styles, and nothing turns corporeal punishment into a worthless tool like someone dealing out punishment inconsistently. It happens just as often if not more often than "soft parenting" being used inconsistently...
It seems to me that you presuming the majority of parents who use spanking are moody nut jobs who pummel their children anytime they gets a little stressed out, or cannot think of a good way to discipline there child so they just resort to brute force. You state this as though it is a fact, but it is really just your opinion and a malicious and unfounded stereotype. I'm not saying there is no such thing as abusive parents or that they are rare, but just blurting out that most parents that spank are probably abusive is ridiculous.
Grabzak Dirtyfighter wrote:It seems to me that you presuming the majority of parents who use spanking are moody nut jobs who pummel their children anytime they gets a little stressed out
It seems to me that your presumption is wrong.
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The Bringer wrote:If you discipline a child strongly, they will never commit that sin again. (And I know this from experience.)
Or they could just become inured to the discipline and not be effected by it because it's too harsh, and they realize it is so they don't respect you. The same thing happens with dictatorial states, oddly enough.
Grabzak Dirtyfighter wrote:It seems to me that you presuming the majority of parents who use spanking are moody nut jobs who pummel their children anytime they gets a little stressed out
It seems to me that your presumption is wrong.
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The Bringer wrote:If you discipline a child strongly, they will never commit that sin again. (And I know this from experience.)
Or they could just become inured to the discipline and not be effected by it because it's too harsh, and they realize it is so they don't respect you. The same thing happens with dictatorial states, oddly enough.
No I agree with him completely. But as mentioned earlier, you have a very high opinion of yourself, and regardless of what others say about it, you argue teeth and nail against it. Its ok to admit your wrong you know, everyone is from time to time.
Melissia wrote:
"Daddy's in a grumpy mood, so now he's spanking me with his heaviest belt for speaking out of turn, but a week ago he was in a great mood so I got away with a temper tantrum that broke a chair and all I got was a slap on the wrist!"
Melissia wrote:
Grabzak Dirtyfighter wrote:It seems to me that you presuming the majority of parents who use spanking are moody nut jobs who pummel their children anytime they gets a little stressed out
It seems to me that your presumption is wrong.
That's funny it looks to me my presumption is not only not wrong, but is quite possibly exactly right!!
We seem to be doing a lot of this is wrong no its right, thats abuse etc. So why not look at what misdemeanor/rule breaking deserves what punishment to try stop the topic going round and round. We have all agreed that different kids need different things to punish them.
So whats the consensus on what is acceptable for what crime. stealing a cookie out of the cookie jar=time out, hitting a sibling etc=smack on the bum and swearing=possible fine if mild, severe is wash out mouth. These are examples of what I would do btw.
Melissia wrote:
"Daddy's in a grumpy mood, so now he's spanking me with his heaviest belt for speaking out of turn, but a week ago he was in a great mood so I got away with a temper tantrum that broke a chair and all I got was a slap on the wrist!"
Inconsistency is a problem for all parenting styles, and nothing turns corporeal punishment into a worthless tool like someone dealing out punishment inconsistently. It happens just as often if not more often than "soft parenting" being used inconsistently...
It seems to me that you presuming the majority of parents who use spanking are moody nut jobs who pummel their children anytime they gets a little stressed out, or cannot think of a good way to discipline there child so they just resort to brute force. You state this as though it is a fact, but it is really just your opinion and a malicious and unfounded stereotype. I'm not saying there is no such thing as abusive parents or that they are rare, but just blurting out that most parents that spank are probably abusive is ridiculous.
You'll find that just letting people on the internet be wrong is much less frustrating than trying to convince someone who is obviously trolling you that their outlandish and irresponsible claims are incorrect.
KingCrakker, Grabzak: Try actually reading the posts you're responding to.
Melissia wrote:Inconsistency is a problem for all parenting styles, and nothing turns corporeal punishment into a worthless tool like someone dealing out punishment inconsistently.
It's a problem with parenting in general, but apparently my saying this is the same as me saying "anyone who spanks is always inconsistent every time forever".
Bloody fething hell people... your hyperbole is infuriatingly illogical.
The Bringer wrote:If you discipline a child strongly, they will never commit that sin again. (And I know this from experience.)
Or they could just become inured to the discipline and not be effected by it because it's too harsh, and they realize it is so they don't respect you. The same thing happens with dictatorial states, oddly enough.
That is irrelevant to the question asked by the OP.
Nonetheless, I will reply. If you only discipline the child, I believe what you stated is a natural result. My parents told me why they were disciplining me, however. They made it imperative to make me understood that they still loved me, which their actions have regularly proved.
Sadly, most parents in today society do not do this.
Also, how should a parent who disciplines their child by sending them to their room deserve any respect? Only parents who are backboneless, lazy, and uncaring would do such things. Sure, the child is happy he got off the hook, but he will not respect his parent any more than he previously had.
The Bringer wrote: how should a parent who disciplines their child by sending them to their room deserve any respect? Only parents who are backboneless, lazy, and uncaring would do such things. Sure, the child is happy he got off the hook, but he will not respect his parent any more than he previously had.
I'm for spanking kids but I'd strongly disagree with this. When I was younger there were days when I thought I'd rather lose an arm than rights to go to my friend's house. I believe your assertion that only lazy parents would choose to use that form of punishment is every bit as misguided as those who believe any form of corporeal punishment is abuse.
The Bringer wrote: how should a parent who disciplines their child by sending them to their room deserve any respect? Only parents who are backboneless, lazy, and uncaring would do such things. Sure, the child is happy he got off the hook, but he will not respect his parent any more than he previously had.
I'm for spanking kids but I'd strongly disagree with this. When I was younger there were days when I thought I'd rather lose an arm than rights to go to my friend's house. I believe your assertion that only lazy parents would choose to use that form of punishment is every bit as misguided as those who believe any form of corporeal punishment is abuse.
Let me amend my statement, as I agree with you as it is.
Most parents in today's community (this is from personal experience here... I guess it could vary greatly depending on location and community) send their child to their room just to get the child away... the child feels no remorse, and will just play with his/her toys... there is no real punishment going on in such a situation.
Not going to a friend's house is definitely a good form of punishment... sending a child away for the sake of getting them out of your hair is what I was referring to.
Kragura wrote:As someone who was also raised on this rational neither have I. That doesn't change the fact that that's the lesson you teach kids when you hit them, and it doesn't change the fact that this is a bad lesson.
Well, given that you acknowledge the falsity of your assertion that kids who are spanked/hit act out in a similar way when they get older, I'm not sure what is left to discuss.
That wasn't my argument and you know it. I have said time and time again that hitting children teaches a bad lesson, not that they will inevitably act in a certain way if you raise them in a certain way.
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biccat wrote:
Melissia wrote:Twenty minutes?
Usually it's more likie five seconds. "It'll burn you and hurt really bad."
Why?
"I don't know" why would be my response. then I would let them touch it, "see?"
This of course is all irrelevant because I was talking about teaching them the difference from right and wrong, touching the stove is in no way wrong it's just dumb, I'd let the child figure out why if they really want to.
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KingCracker wrote:
But then there not are they, they of course still have you there to get mad at them. I meant more along the lines of "if they get bigger than you", in all honesty they'll probably be fine, people are able to pick up some good moral lessons from anywhere. The problem is that your not teaching them good moral lessons, in fact you're probably contradicting a lot of them.
My kids behave when they arnt with me, because they know thats what a good person does, it has nothing to do with fear at all.
I'm sure this is very true, but how did you hitting them teach them that? How could it teach them anything other than what I've already said it would teach them?
Melissia wrote:KingCrakker, Grabzak: Try actually reading the posts you're responding to.
Melissia wrote:Inconsistency is a problem for all parenting styles, and nothing turns corporeal punishment into a worthless tool like someone dealing out punishment inconsistently.
It's a problem with parenting in general, but apparently my saying this is the same as me saying "anyone who spanks is always inconsistent every time forever".
Bloody fething hell people... your hyperbole is infuriatingly illogical.
But I had told my children great wisdom a million times and they still will not listen!
Parenting is much like being a director for a TV show.
You want to make your point and try hard to figure out how to get your audience's attention.
My youngest is easy to get his attention and logic explained well he understands he can follow "the news report".
My oldest is high energy: he needs the explosions, flashing lights and clowns to just to get his attention for a moment never mind for the duration to get a message across, he would watch "Jerry Springer".
No strategy survives engagement with the enemy or small children.
One thing you cannot ignore is the complete sincerity of the parents wanting to do what is right and good for their kids.
The high ideals I can respect the intent but scoff at the successful application and truly think no-one has any idea what they are talking about until they have kids, period (remember I was once like you).
You will and shall lose all thought of thinking about you first, REALLY think how much your needs are considered before all else until these needy little munchkins get involved.
Spanking is done by parents because all other options have failed miserably: talking, corners, privilege loss, stickers, prizes, bribes and therapy: with some kids these all fail and desperation sets in.
Yes, some parents do not care, or are lazy, narcissists and any other form of failing and human condition but I like to focus on "normal" people doing the best they can and is physical punishment bad?
My eldest son was upset that he could not stop hitting kids, speaking up in class, unable to focus or understand conversations because he was easily distracted, he needed help and I was running out of time.
You never quite come to a realization how your kids are until your nice, loving, sweet, mother in-law snaps in the car with your kids and tell them to keep their hands to themselves or she will chop them off.
You know when my kids suffer the most at my hands? When they are ignored. When I am too busy. When they show me a piece of their artwork and I do not care. When I will not help them with getting that bit of lego together with them. These things I am certain pain them more than any spanking I have ever done. Anything done constructively with good and thoughtful intent is worth doing even if the means are less than ideal. When I implemented spanking for hurting others only that behavior stopped dead. It seemed to give that last little bit of control my son needed to stop himself. He was happy he did not hurt anyone and was not fearful of me due to this process.
Blah. This thread makes me write too much . I appreciate the viewpoints but forgive me if a smile a little at the helpful advice that failed miserably in the past and was tried a few more times for good measure.
Azza007 wrote:We seem to be doing a lot of this is wrong no its right, thats abuse etc. So why not look at what misdemeanor/rule breaking deserves what punishment to try stop the topic going round and round. We have all agreed that different kids need different things to punish them.
So whats the consensus on what is acceptable for what crime. stealing a cookie out of the cookie jar=time out, hitting a sibling etc=smack on the bum and swearing=possible fine if mild, severe is wash out mouth. These are examples of what I would do btw.
I think that it's not so simple as a one sided chart. If we were to make a "punishment matrix" then it would be more like certain 'crimes' get lumped into one category which would be punished a certain way, for the first offense. I think that, in cases (which usually happens) we as parents have to take escalating steps in punishment, with the mind that the child is of a certain age and will still understand only a limited number of punishments.
biccat wrote:Spanking, slapping, or hitting a kid when they do something wrong (as punishment, not as a beating) doesn't teach them that "might makes right" or any other "bad lesson." (Assuming, of course, that might makes right is a bad lesson).
Well, it might, if the only reason the child has to obey the parent is fear of getting spanked.
But then, that's a problem that occurs when the respect is gone, because the parent has failed in so many other ways.
If the respect is gone, then hitting or no hitting you're fethed either way. If the respect is there, then hitting or not the kid will probably turn out alright.
Why back in my day When I misbehaved I was speared and hung upside down for 5 days and five nights, then I had to sacrifice myself. Kids today are weak
biccat wrote:Spanking, slapping, or hitting a kid when they do something wrong (as punishment, not as a beating) doesn't teach them that "might makes right" or any other "bad lesson." (Assuming, of course, that might makes right is a bad lesson).
Well, it might, if the only reason the child has to obey the parent is fear of getting spanked.
But then, that's a problem that occurs when the respect is gone, because the parent has failed in so many other ways.
If the respect is gone, then hitting or no hitting you're fethed either way. If the respect is there, then hitting or not the kid will probably turn out alright.
Parents should be required to get a licence in order to raise children.
You need a licence to drive a car (legally), you need a licence to own a gun (use of said item is a different piscatorial bucket).
You DON'T need a licence to royally feth up the next generation with inadequate control methods.
Although my opinions on childraising are more or less irrelevant. I do not have any (despite being old enough to have grandchildren) nor do I have any intention of changing this outlook.
More than a few of the local sprogs could benefit from their parents clearing the slate and starting over. Shootin's too good fer 'em. Make 'em never have existed is better.
biccat wrote:Spanking, slapping, or hitting a kid when they do something wrong (as punishment, not as a beating) doesn't teach them that "might makes right" or any other "bad lesson." (Assuming, of course, that might makes right is a bad lesson).
Well, it might, if the only reason the child has to obey the parent is fear of getting spanked.
But then, that's a problem that occurs when the respect is gone, because the parent has failed in so many other ways.
If the respect is gone, then hitting or no hitting you're fethed either way. If the respect is there, then hitting or not the kid will probably turn out alright.
Parents should be required to get a licence in order to raise children.
You need a licence to drive a car (legally), you need a licence to own a gun (use of said item is a different piscatorial bucket).
You DON'T need a licence to royally feth up the next generation with inadequate control methods.
Although my opinions on childraising are more or less irrelevant. I do not have any (despite being old enough to have grandchildren) nor do I have any intention of changing this outlook.
More than a few of the local sprogs could benefit from their parents clearing the slate and starting over. Shootin's too good fer 'em. Make 'em never have existed is better.
I agree. Licensing should be required internationally for parenting. Im sick of seeing overly soft parents and overly hard parents. Kids have to be kids, but mature and respectful too.
Medium of Death wrote:Washing a child's mouth out with soap is borderline insanity.
Your parents are fethed in the head.
AJAX tastes like b#$@# but yeah its not insanity it works trust me but the belt is what made me learn to make the right decisions and the wooden spoon will strengthen you conscious
Seems entirely unnecessary to knock children around the way suggested on this thread and the use of implements is just absurd. I was probably hit only once or twice as a child and not hard. I didn't need to be beaten with straps to be raised properly.
If you strike your child even more than the most occasional basis then there's something quite wrong somewhere. Likely the behaviour problems are the result of other issues, perhaps your general approach to bringing them up or their home environment. Slapping them around instead of working on the problem more constructively is tantamount to abuse. For a start, use of physical force has a great deal of shock power, but use it regularly and there is no shock value, it's just about inflicting short term pain.
Howard A Treesong wrote:Some people have suggested using implements, feeding their kid soap and hitting them across the face.
=/= "knocking your kids around" in their world view, right?
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Howard A Treesong wrote:I was probably hit only once or twice as a child and not hard. I didn't need to be beaten with straps to be raised properly.
I'm not picking a side here, but how does anyone decide that they were "raised properly?" At least to a sufficient degree that they feel qualified to criticize the way others are parenting?
Monster Rain wrote:I'm not picking a side here, but how does anyone decide that they were "raised properly?" At least to a sufficient degree that they feel qualified to criticize the way others are parenting?
Monster Rain wrote:
I'm not picking a side here, but how does anyone decide that they were "raised properly?" At least to a sufficient degree that they feel qualified to criticize the way others are parenting?
What measures do you suggest? I've been successful through school, I'm married, I've never had so much as a speeding ticket in relation to the law, I've never been in a fight. I didn't need to have my life lessons beaten into me to be a sociable law abiding individual. I think I turned out okay for someone that wasn't hit with spoons and belts.
My wife has taught in schools and there's a very common relationship between kids that are disruptive with those coming from bad backgrounds. Physical punishment clearly doesn't produce a well behaved child because a lot of the worst behaved kids are those that are punished in that manner. I don't think kids are born bad, so what shapes their behaviour? If you find yourself having to use force more than as a rare last resort then there's a problem and it probably isn't rooted in the child. Look around you.
Must be a cultural thing then. Because I can tell you over here anyways, the worst behaved children are usually the ones whos parents are the "talk to them" types. But I should further explain, by that I mean the lazy ones that just constantly say "Stop that child #7, stop it, dont do that *break something* Aww I said to stop, cut it out, really and so on and so on"
Ive given myself time to think on this thread a bit, instead of getting annoyed with people on here about their practices. Although personally, Im an advocate for spankings, I also do explain to my kids why they are being punished and make sure they know why it was wrong. I think so many of us, on both sides are getting defensive because we all feel like our methods work and so are all getting a bit insulted/defensive when questioned on it. Almost like saying "Your a bad parent because....."
I think the most important tool, to raising children is really being there for them, constantly. The kids that are "bad" kids are the ones that are abused both mentally/emotionally and have lazy parents that are neither there for them, or consistent in their parenting. I use my parents as a template for raising mine, becuase I know how happy I was growing up, and I had the "cool" parents growing up. It was weird hearing my friends constantly tell us how nice they are, how fun they are, and how they wished their parents were like that. Sad thing is, most of those friends that said those things, are in jail or total feth ups. Yes I was spanked and grounded and punished, but my parents raised 3 boyz, and we are all pretty solid individuals. So I use that method as well, and Im sure if your parents were consistent and caring and showed you interest beyond TV, then you would find their method just as useful.
KingCracker wrote:Must be a cultural thing then. Because I can tell you over here anyways, the worst behaved children are usually the ones whos parents are the "talk to them" types. But I should further explain, by that I mean the lazy ones that just constantly say "Stop that child #7, stop it, dont do that *break something* Aww I said to stop, cut it out, really and so on and so on"
Ive given myself time to think on this thread a bit, instead of getting annoyed with people on here about their practices. Although personally, Im an advocate for spankings, I also do explain to my kids why they are being punished and make sure they know why it was wrong. I think so many of us, on both sides are getting defensive because we all feel like our methods work and so are all getting a bit insulted/defensive when questioned on it. Almost like saying "Your a bad parent because....."
I think the most important tool, to raising children is really being there for them, constantly. The kids that are "bad" kids are the ones that are abused both mentally/emotionally and have lazy parents that are neither there for them, or consistent in their parenting. I use my parents as a template for raising mine, becuase I know how happy I was growing up, and I had the "cool" parents growing up. It was weird hearing my friends constantly tell us how nice they are, how fun they are, and how they wished their parents were like that. Sad thing is, most of those friends that said those things, are in jail or total feth ups. Yes I was spanked and grounded and punished, but my parents raised 3 boyz, and we are all pretty solid individuals. So I use that method as well, and Im sure if your parents were consistent and caring and showed you interest beyond TV, then you would find their method just as useful.
Pretty much the summary of those advocating "corporal punishment".
We all get to know our little ones and no-one can say they know them better (unless again we are dealing with the mentally absent parent)
You use what is "appropriate" (as best we can see it) to guide the child toward being a "good person" which everyone has a different opinion on.
If I create a Nobel prize winner or a serial killer I am sure I will give this thread an update... because the real kicker is you can never be 100% sure you did it all "right".
Jeffry Dahmers is a perfect example of that one. His parents said he had a really normal childhood, and were really surprised when they learned of what he did. Hell everyone was shocked really.
Monster Rain wrote: I'm not picking a side here, but how does anyone decide that they were "raised properly?" At least to a sufficient degree that they feel qualified to criticize the way others are parenting?
What measures do you suggest? I've been successful through school, I'm married, I've never had so much as a speeding ticket in relation to the law, I've never been in a fight. I didn't need to have my life lessons beaten into me to be a sociable law abiding individual. I think I turned out okay for someone that wasn't hit with spoons and belts.
My wife has taught in schools and there's a very common relationship between kids that are disruptive with those coming from bad backgrounds. Physical punishment clearly doesn't produce a well behaved child because a lot of the worst behaved kids are those that are punished in that manner. I don't think kids are born bad, so what shapes their behaviour? If you find yourself having to use force more than as a rare last resort then there's a problem and it probably isn't rooted in the child. Look around you.
Any methods anyone suggests are irrelvant because they are purely arbitrary on a personal and cultural level, everyone will make up their own minds on what is the 'right' and 'wrong' way to raise children based purely on two things, their own experiences in life and what society demands of them, it has always been and always continue to be different for everyone.
To be fair, a single school is hardly anymore evidence than any other purely anecdotal story people have told in this thread, an average school in a Western country is what? 500-1000 students, of those, no more than about 10% (give or take ) of those will behave badly enough for it to be noted in the school's records at one point or another in their time at that school, of those again only about 10% (give or take) will be repeat and/or particularly troublesome offenders, so we are really only looking at about 5-10 (give or take) kids per school which really is no where near an adequate population size to make assumptions such as "Physical punishment clearly doesn't produce a well behaved child because a lot of the worst behaved kids are those that are punished in that manner", If you can make that assumption based on one school than I can just as easily say recount that all the bad kids at my school are the ones with the 'sit down and explain' parents, does that mean I can make the assumption that "Lack of physical punishment clearly doesn't produce a well behaved child because a lot of the worst behaved kids are those that are treated in that manner? No, it doesn't
Krellnus wrote:Any methods anyone suggests are irrelvant because they are purely arbitrary on a personal and cultural level, everyone will make up their own minds on what is the 'right' and 'wrong' way to raise children based purely on two things, their own experiences in life and what society demands of them, it has always been and always continue to be different for everyone.
This was pretty much my thoughts on the matter.
Personally, I don't think someone has been properly raised until they slay a Krayt dragon or wear one of those gloves full of bullet ants.
Krellnus wrote:Any methods anyone suggests are irrelvant because they are purely arbitrary on a personal and cultural level, everyone will make up their own minds on what is the 'right' and 'wrong' way to raise children based purely on two things, their own experiences in life and what society demands of them, it has always been and always continue to be different for everyone.
This was pretty much my thoughts on the matter.
Personally, I don't think someone has been properly raised until they slay a Krayt dragon or wear one of those gloves full of bullet ants.
Call me a complete fruit basket, but I think I would try that if I found myself around one of the tribes that do that ritual
There so far been a good deal of opinions on this matter.
This has me wonder:
- How does this, Children and Discipline apply to other people?
Example:
A couple seperates, and later on, one of the parents finds another parther. In this case of a newly-added substitution dad/mom - what are his or her authorities towards the kid(s)?
I think that its up to the biological parent to determine what rights the new partner has with the children, and maybe for the older children to be consulted.
Billinator wrote:Example:
A couple seperates, and later on, one of the parents finds another parther. In this case of a newly-added substitution dad/mom - what are his or her authorities towards the kid(s)?
Based on Disney movies, I think the step parent is suppose to enslave or attempt to murder the children out of jealousy.
Billinator wrote:Example:
A couple seperates, and later on, one of the parents finds another parther. In this case of a newly-added substitution dad/mom - what are his or her authorities towards the kid(s)?
Based on Disney movies, I think the step parent is suppose to enslave or attempt to murder the children out of jealousy.
In other words: You better fething be jealous of the kids?
Oh, Raines - keep those graines of gold coming! <3
KingCracker wrote:Must be a cultural thing then. Because I can tell you over here anyways, the worst behaved children are usually the ones whos parents are the "talk to them" types. But I should further explain, by that I mean the lazy ones that just constantly say "Stop that child #7, stop it, dont do that *break something* Aww I said to stop, cut it out, really and so on and so on"
Sure, there needs to be a punishment. But there are a whole range of options between 'no punishment' and 'physical punishment'; time out, denial of toys, all kinds of things.
I think the most important tool, to raising children is really being there for them, constantly. The kids that are "bad" kids are the ones that are abused both mentally/emotionally and have lazy parents that are neither there for them, or consistent in their parenting.
Yes, definitely. Parenting is about making time for your kids, setting clear standards, being a role model, providing a stable home environment, and so many other things. Punishment is a very minor issue, and the people in this thread who've attempted to assign the good and poor behaviour of kids just to the method of punishment have been ignoring almost everything that really matters.
. Seriously, kids run a mock in these streets, they need to be disciplined somehow.
.
You never quite come to a realization how your kids are until your nice, loving, sweet, mother in-law snaps in the car with your kids and tell them to keep their hands to themselves or she will chop them off.
You know when my kids suffer the most at my hands? When they are ignored. When I am too busy. When they show me a piece of their artwork and I do not care. When I will not help them with getting that bit of lego together with them. These things I am certain pain them more than any spanking I have ever done. Anything done constructively with good and thoughtful intent is worth doing even if the means are less than ideal. When I implemented spanking for hurting others only that behavior stopped dead. It seemed to give that last little bit of control my son needed to stop himself. He was happy he did not hurt anyone and was not fearful of me due to this process.
. I appreciate the viewpoints but forgive me if a smile a little at the helpful advice that failed miserably in the past and was tried a few more times for good measure.