So I was looking at some models of orks that my friend purchased the other day, and I thought to my self, that they looked like old propaganda posters that portrayed the Germans as barbarians.... As a history major this peaked my curiousity and i purchased a couple orks to paint how I imagined they would looked like in the posters. i'll upload the pictures tonight but i wanted to get your opinion on the idea first.

(on a side note i don't commend anything the Nazi's did, nor do i mean to upset anyone)

As long as there are no swastikas I don't see what's wrong with it, it's a very interesting part of history, and I see no reason why models shouldn't be painted in ww2 german style in a universe full of ww1 and 2 style armies

A lot of the old ork models looked like they were dressed as World War-era German soldiers. Especially the old storm boyz. Sounds like you've run into some of them.

I think you may have confused WW1 German Military attire with WW2 Nazi German military attire. The two are very different, and the way some of the models are styled for Orks I believe resemble the former. The propaganda posters you have seen portraying Germans as barbarians are almost certainly from WW1.

The WW1 attire was likened to a Prussian Military tradition that was attached to Imperialistic ideals of the 19th century. At that time, Germany was ruled by a "Kaiser", and was arguably not the "evil bad guy" they were in WW2.

WW2 Germany was a godless fascist military aggressor state, with a maniacal dictator who brainwashed millions of his own people and was responsible for some of the most horrendous atrocities ever committed. This is a taboo subject as you well know. Uniforms were also done by Hugo Boss. so there is a distinct look that differs from the WW1 military fatigues.

I'd say to avoid any thing that is likened to the Nazis. I wouldn't say there is anything incredibly wrong if you want to use Iron Crosses or the German variant of the Maltese Cross, but definitely avoid Swastikas and the Red/Black/White Nazi color scheme.

With that aside, great idea.

LazzurusMan wrote:As long as there are no swastikas I don't see what's wrong with it, it's a very interesting part of history, and I see no reason why models shouldn't be painted in ww2 german style in a universe full of ww1 and 2 style armies

Well they have one on the center of their helmet and a flag on their blades. As i said i'm painting them allthough they were in a propaganda poster, not nessisarly if they were actual field troops. (more like a caricature)

It's not glorifying or promoting it, he is just trying to do something interesting with models that look similar to soldiers from our own history, they just happen to resemble Nazi's. It shouldn't offend anybody, the Nazi's were a huge part of history. Why couldn't he put a swastika on the models? Maybe we should just burn all records of the Nazis and forget all about every horrible event in history while were at it? I don't understand how someone could be offended by a NON-NAZI finding some miniatures that resemble Nazi's and painting them accordingly. I'm sure if they looked like British red coats he'd be painting them to look like red coats. It's obviously not motivated by rhetoric, just style. I say go for it, its historical and interesting. Post pictures when its completed.

All this soft-stepping when around Nazi-like things. I wonder if FoW players do this.

Reckoner wrote:Red/Black/White Nazi color scheme

Hmmm, well, yes, but some peeps will see nazis everywhere. It's not uncommon to see those colours used on any army as it is a particularly striking combination.
My Inquisition GK (old codex) had a red/white/black scheme straight out of the codex. Red banners with Inquisition 'I's on them.
Got called out for it at a tournament. TO told them to bugger off.

"a godless fascist military aggressor state, with a maniacal dictator who brainwashed millions of his own people and was responsible for some of the most horrendous atrocities ever committed."

Sounds like the Imperium of man, to a T.

Except they like to pretend they have a god, 'ceptin' he's "not dead yet".

CuddlySquig wrote:All this soft-stepping when around Nazi-like things. I wonder if FoW players do this.

I have no shame in saying...I dig the Nazi aesthetic. From the colors, to the sharp uniforms, to the weapons and equipment that performed as good as it looked.


Im not saying I approve of their deeds, but I dig their style. Im also a huge fan of the Tiger I...for all its flaws I just love the machine.

Indeed, if they had one thing, it was style.

Yes they did have style for sure.

Mad4Minis wrote:

CuddlySquig wrote:All this soft-stepping when around Nazi-like things. I wonder if FoW players do this.

I have no shame in saying...I dig the Nazi aesthetic. From the colors, to the sharp uniforms, to the weapons and equipment that performed as good as it looked.


Im not saying I approve of their deeds, but I dig their style. Im also a huge fan of the Tiger I...for all its flaws I just love the machine.

To be fair, that was the point - before the war, the Nazi party was a highly charismatic party for the people and the uniforms were designed to look good. No one should feel bad for sharing their aesthetic tastes (and after all, Hitler was an artist before he turned his hand to politics and evil - albeit, a failed one).

And as far as aesthetics go; we wouldn't have the commissar figure second from the right on my sig if not for it

It's not glorifying or promoting it, he is just trying to do something interesting with models that look similar to soldiers from our own history, they just happen to resemble Nazi's. It shouldn't offend anybody, the Nazi's were a huge part of history. Why couldn't he put a swastika on the models? Maybe we should just burn all records of the Nazis and forget all about every horrible event in history while were at it? I don't understand how someone could be offended by a NON-NAZI finding some miniatures that resemble Nazi's and painting them accordingly. I'm sure if they looked like British red coats he'd be painting them to look like red coats. It's obviously not motivated by rhetoric, just style. I say go for it, its historical and interesting. Post pictures when its completed.

First off, those models don't look like Nazis as I thought I had made clear earlier in my post. Rather, they are styled after First World War German troops. I'm quite certain Games Workshop would not risk the amount of criticism and flak they would recieve if they created miniatures to look like Nazis. EDIT: Commissars are more resemblant of Russian Officer uniform. The word "Commissar" itself is a Russian derivative.

Second, it is YOUR opinion that it "shouldn't" offend anybody, and by that logic we could also start painting models in Blackface, because hey, slavery and Jim Crow were a big part of history. See how many African Americans that doesn't offend. Go ahead and tell 'em that you aren't "promoting" racism.

Third, you fail to recognize that Nazi symbols like the swastika can cut very deep with people who were more involved in what happened in the Holocaust and World War 2, or their family members. Fortunately, you were not involved in such things and so I can recognize that you are unable to understand how people can be hurt or offended by seeing someone painting symbols that represented severe hatred, mass murder, and intolerance. You have obviously never seen a Holocaust survivor break down at the mention of the Nazis, or at the sight of a Swastika, and you surely can not understand the sort of feelings that dwell within those people. While it may not offend most, that symbol can cause tremendous duress and grief for some, and it is a constant reminder of what they lost, their families, their livelihood, and their humanity. Jews, Slavs, Romani, homosexuals and racial minorities were all murdered under the image of the swastika. That doesn't even include the millions of Allied soldiers who were killed or wounded fighting against that same image. If you think that symbol has lost meaning for members of those groups, you're wrong.

Lastly, it's quite ridiculous to compare consideration to censorship. Why would we ever think of burning historical records? There is a difference between respecting what happened in the past and ignoring it, and I do think that painting models with swastikas on them is disrespectful of the past. You think of comparing Nazis to British Red Coats, a uniform worn by British soldiers on a global scale during the height of the British Empire, just because Americans fought a revolution against them? I'm sorry, but there is no comparison between the American Revolution and Nazism.

To the OP, if you want to paint your models with Nazi symbols on them, nobody can stop you. I'm giving you cautionary advice that they will likely cause offense to some people, and it's up to you to decide whether or not you care.

I really wish people could leave hatred and political outlooks out of this stuff. I mean I see what Reckoner means but at the same time, if people are offended by a Nazi (or WW1 German Millitary) paint scheme then they should also be complaining about pretty much any WW2 era game that lets a play Nazi's... Can we just drop the politics and enjoy a good paint scheme together as colleagues?

I really wish people could leave hatred and political outlooks out of this stuff. I mean I see what Reckoner means but at the same time, if people are offended by a Nazi (or WW1 German Millitary) paint scheme then they should also be complaining about pretty much any WW2 era game that lets a play Nazi's... Can we just drop the politics and enjoy a good paint scheme together as colleagues?

I agree, and the paint color scheme here is not really the big issue. Rather the swastika itself is what I wanted to warn about, it is that symbol that may cause people to take offense.

I say feel free to use the symbolism that you wish to use, but be prepared to defend why you chose to use it and the history behind it.

I am going to get a bit pedantic here... The swastika has been around far longer than the Nazi party who adopted it. The symbol originally was for the four winds. The Finnish also used a Swastika (albeit light blue vs black) during that period. The symbol also comes up in Tibetan symbolism and others. So yes, even though it has much further reaching history, because of the recentness and the magnitude of the events that occurred, most people only ever associate it with those things. Really the same can be said of the pentagram. It is a symbol most associate with things of evil or the devil, but that is simply not the case. It is a symbol that represents the four elements and the spirit. Even the celtic cross is a form of pentagram, with each of the arms of the cross replacing a point and the circle at the junction being representative of the spirit.

So my point? Yes, certain symbols have been associated with bad things in our history. Is the symbol itself bad? No. You need to step back and think before going off and take it in the intended context. A lot of the worlds issues (and 'flame wars') could be avoided if people would take some time to think and not go off half cocked.

Kommissar Grotnob demands an apology for zee implicashuns zat zee old Orks look like Nazis!



well, maybe a little...

Shhh.... Those ones are in disguise behind an imperial formation... good disquises...

Benamint wrote:I really wish people could leave hatred and political outlooks out of this stuff. I mean I see what Reckoner means but at the same time, if people are offended by a Nazi (or WW1 German Millitary) paint scheme then they should also be complaining about pretty much any WW2 era game that lets a play Nazi's... Can we just drop the politics and enjoy a good paint scheme together as colleagues?

There's a difference between a game modeled to follow WW2 (FoW, etc). (any many people don't use the swastika when painting those units anyway) and taking space orks and purposely giving them a Nazi makeover.

Also, please don't water offense over Nazi's and swastikas down to "politics". It's offensive.

Germantoast wrote:So I was looking at some models of orks that my friend purchased the other day, and I thought to my self, that they looked like old propaganda posters that portrayed the Germans as barbarians.

Has to do with the fact that only Polish companies do Nazi orks and almost all Polish miniature companies do this. Incidently, the Germans=Nazis argument is the major election campaign theme of the nationalist party in the last two national elections. And two years ago, the Polish booth on the biggest German games fair had three board games: 2 fighting against the Germans and one fighting against the Russians. So anti-German toys are popular in that country. I am proud to say that I am not aware of any anti-Polish toys in Germany and that there is no market for such things.

Benamint wrote:I really wish people could leave hatred and political outlooks out of this stuff. I mean I see what Reckoner means but at the same time, if people are offended by a Nazi (or WW1 German Millitary) paint scheme then they should also be complaining about pretty much any WW2 era game that lets a play Nazi's... Can we just drop the politics and enjoy a good paint scheme together as colleagues?

As much as I kind of agree with this statement, I also don't ONLY because Warhammer 40k is not about ww2 era wargaming. But giving the context of a swastika mixes that dash of politics in there that always makes things more complicated, ya know? I could create a chess set that was Allies vs. Axis that was in no way a ww2 wargame, but still held that same political spark, ya know?

@OP: The German's had style. They were badass in their military. The Nazi party took power in government so fast it wasn't funny. They were really good at stuff. But... some of that stuff wasn't really all that nice. Might I suggest that, as much as you want to create your Orks in the likeness of the Nazi party, might you replace the swastika symbol with a custom symbol of your own making? Keep the colors, keep everything else. While playing your orks, pretend a german accent if you want, but a different symbol would help to alleviate the associated distress, and cause a need for fluff of your own design.

Ultimately, you decide.

I think it really depends what parts of the World War II German forces you're trying to represent. There is a difference in uniform between your average German Soldier and an SS Officer, there is as also a difference between using the Iron Cross and using the Swastika. It depends on which one you are trying to represent.

I agree with other, that hey it's your Army do what you want. However I personally would find the Swastika specifically, to be offensive.

CuddlySquig wrote:
All this soft-stepping when around Nazi-like things. I wonder if FoW players do this.

In Fow players are representing actual military hardware, you can argue it's historical. IMO it's harder to argue the same point when putting swastikas on Orks.

Edited for grammar

I say feel free to use the symbolism that you wish to use, but be prepared to defend why you chose to use it and the history behind it.

I am going to get a bit pedantic here... The swastika has been around far longer than the Nazi party who adopted it. The symbol originally was for the four winds. The Finnish also used a Swastika (albeit light blue vs black) during that period. The symbol also comes up in Tibetan symbolism and others. So yes, even though it has much further reaching history, because of the recentness and the magnitude of the events that occurred, most people only ever associate it with those things. Really the same can be said of the pentagram. It is a symbol most associate with things of evil or the devil, but that is simply not the case. It is a symbol that represents the four elements and the spirit. Even the celtic cross is a form of pentagram, with each of the arms of the cross replacing a point and the circle at the junction being representative of the spirit.

So my point? Yes, certain symbols have been associated with bad things in our history. Is the symbol itself bad? No. You need to step back and think before going off and take it in the intended context. A lot of the worlds issues (and 'flame wars') could be avoided if people would take some time to think and not go off half cocked.

Yeah, I can appreciate what you're saying here. I am quite aware of the various historical usages of popular symbols, and so is anyone who read "The Da Vinci Code". But the title of this thread is not "Tibetan Priest Orks". A symbol is nothing without its meaning, and who gives a symbol its meaning? We do. The half-cocked black swastika is what most people commonly associate with the Nazi Party, that is what we are talking about here, not historical symbology.

commissarbob wrote:I say feel free to use the symbolism that you wish to use, but be prepared to defend why you chose to use it and the history behind it.

I am going to get a bit pedantic here... The swastika has been around far longer than the Nazi party who adopted it. The symbol originally was for the four winds. The Finnish also used a Swastika (albeit light blue vs black) during that period. The symbol also comes up in Tibetan symbolism and others. So yes, even though it has much further reaching history, because of the recentness and the magnitude of the events that occurred, most people only ever associate it with those things. Really the same can be said of the pentagram. It is a symbol most associate with things of evil or the devil, but that is simply not the case. It is a symbol that represents the four elements and the spirit. Even the celtic cross is a form of pentagram, with each of the arms of the cross replacing a point and the circle at the junction being representative of the spirit.

So my point? Yes, certain symbols have been associated with bad things in our history. Is the symbol itself bad? No. You need to step back and think before going off and take it in the intended context. A lot of the worlds issues (and 'flame wars') could be avoided if people would take some time to think and not go off half cocked.

While a swastika in it's initial form is not necisarrily offensive, putting it on something with the label "Nazi" makes it quite a bit worse. Imo, there's nothing wrong with having Nazi Orks, as the styles of the WWII German army were flashy and charismatic, I would refrain from putting a swastika on it as this implies a direct connection to one of the darkest events in human history.

Squidmanlolz wrote:
Imo, there's nothing wrong with having Nazi Orks, as the styles of the WWII German army were flashy and charismatic,

I want to reiterate that there is a difference between members of the German Army and members of the Nazi party during WWII. While it's true that some members of the German Army were also members of the Nazi Party (less that 50% according to the statics I found), a majority of them were not.

German Army Orks wouldn't bother me in the least, even if you used the Iron Cross. Nazi Orks with Swastikas would bother me personally, an a lot of other people IMO.

I wouldn't mind an iron cross as it is a common military symbol in many militaries and I don't really associate it with only the Germans.

@ Recliner-

#1- they look just like Nazi soldier uniforms from WWII
#2- In what universe could you compare what I said to modelling black face models? It's doesn't make sense, your example isn't even war related. Funny how you slammed my red coat comparison after that comment. Also, there is a lot about the imperium that is Nazi-like. Read the fluff, a lot of their actions and feelings about groups of beings and universal cleansing are Nazi-like beliefs. So I guess GW does "go there" everyday.
#3- you don't know me so you can't say that I haven't seen the worst of the world. I am an Army Infantry Afghanistan Veteran and I've seen horrors you could probably never comprehend unless you've been there yourself. I was wounded twice, blown up with a rocket, and shot in the arm. I've watched friends scream and cry until they were dead, so don't assume I couldn't relate a bit with the atrocities of human existence.
#3- that being said people shouldn't be limited to what they're painting on their WAR models if they are using colors and symbols from participants of past WARS (not blackface, dumb comparison) so long as its not done maliciously regardless of what anybody thinks about it. It's a free country, paint what you want and don't let anyone try and guilt you into abandoning a cool looking paint job and style just because they don't like it. if they were wearing regular ork uniforms and someone just slapped a swastika on them for no reason then its a problem, but with the uniforms these guys are wearing people should understand its just a historical reference.

Well, I support the paint scheme, I find it absolutely hilarious considering the Germans in both World Wars were exceptionally disciplined, whereas Orks are......well.....orky, lol. As for people giving gak about the paint scheme, the truth is that the 'Nazis' were a political party, the German army was the Wermacht, and the people killing the Jews were the SS troops Germany's secret police, and in a long way about it, the German people themselves by not taking a stand and saying no. I mean....sure, he could try silencing them....but, during war, against ones own people? Ehh. The Germans didnt mind, so they didnt stop it. The Wermacht were just good soldiers doing what they had to in a time of war, and honestly, had the Germans won, and been writing the history, the shoe would certainly be on the other foot. How would you feel if somebody considered your whole military history taboo just because of something that happened in your country by forces that didnt actually involve the military? Try to be fair guys. Its just a paint scheme, and I think its an interesting idea. I also think that I would REALLY like to see some Stormboy Sturmtroopers! ^.^

@ Recliner-

#1- they look just like Nazi soldier uniforms from WWII
#2- In what universe could you compare what I said to modelling black face models? It's doesn't make sense, your example isn't even war related. Funny how you slammed my red coat comparison after that comment. Also, there is a lot about the imperium that is Nazi-like. Read the fluff, a lot of their actions and feelings about groups of beings and universal cleansing are Nazi-like beliefs. So I guess GW does "go there" everyday.
#3- you don't know me so you can't say that I haven't seen the worst of the world. I am an Army Infantry Afghanistan Veteran and I've seen horrors you could probably never comprehend unless you've been there yourself. I was wounded twice, blown up with a rocket, and shot in the arm. I've watched friends scream and cry until they were dead, so don't assume I couldn't relate a bit with the atrocities of human existence.
#3- that being said people shouldn't be limited to what they're painting on their WAR models if they are using colors and symbols from participants of past WARS (not blackface, dumb comparison) so long as its not done maliciously regardless of what anybody thinks about it. It's a free country, paint what you want and don't let anyone try and guilt you into abandoning a cool looking paint job and style just because they don't like it. if they were wearing regular ork uniforms and someone just slapped a swastika on them for no reason then its a problem, but with the uniforms these guys are wearing people should understand its just a historical reference.

I'm assuming that by "Recliner", you meant to type "Reckoner", just a few mixed up letters there. I hope you realize that by bringing up Blackface, I wasn't referencing a military related taboo. Rather, it was a relevant example of an inappropriate representation for an individual to decorate their model with. The Nazi Swastika can hold a similar amount of offensive meaning to the groups that were persecuted by the Nazis as the depiction of Blackface would hold to African Americans who were oppressed in the United States. What does war have to do with it? Does war somehow mitigate the effects of offensiveness? Of course not.

Regardless of the fluff in 40k, none of it is blatantly portraying Nazism. We aren't going to ignore ideas of xenophobia, ultra-right military rule, or even mass murder just because they were aspects of Nazi Germany. What GW does not do is create models to be painted with Swastikas and resemble Nazis, SS, Einsatzgruppen or another branch of that power.

And you're right, I don't know you, I don't know what you do or where you've been; frankly I don't care to know. Anyone can say anything on the internet, you say you're a wounded Infantry Veteran from the war in Afganistan. Even if that's true, it still doesn't give you the right to pass judgement on what should and shouldn't offend people. You chose to join the military, and you knew and accepted the risks of duty. What happened to people in the Holocaust was completely unfathomable and they had absolutely no say in the matter. Millions of lives were lost under a symbol, and you are arguing that it is perfectly fine for that symbol to be painted on hobby models and that it won't offend anybody. It isn't about what the intention is, it's about what people take away from it. What would you say if someone painted miniatures that trivialzed issues like American soldiers in Iraq? Christianity? 9/11? Would it be okay for me to make a diorama of a Jihadist Ork Fighta-Bomba crashing into two towers? Could be a "cool paint job", and it's a historical reference. Doesn't make it OK to do.

Its a game.
Just have fun with it and do what makes you happy.

Tlo1048 wrote:Its a game.

No matter what argument, political placement, racist agenda, blah blah blah, its a game.

If you want to paint swastikas on your army, then do it. If you want to draw an upside down, crucified Jesus Christ on your models, then do it. Its not about offending anyone. If anything, its teaching people to get over their vain attempts to avoid racism. Anti-Racism is racism. You can't get rid of it, you can't avoid it, get over it.

I'm not interested in an arguement about history, politics, racism, communism, facism, swastikas, jews, or gentiles...I dont care! Have fun and paint and design your models to any fashion you want.

Not to mention that the Swastika was around much, MUCH before Hitler ever "Claimed" it.

Just have fun with your game and do what makes you happy.

EDIT: And I am NOT condoning the painting of a representation of Nazi Germany...it was terrible. I would find it to poor taste if he had "Nazi Orks", wearing the colors of the Nazi party, killing people on the bases. But in the end, its his choice.

Just because "You don't care", doesn't mean it won't be offensive, or hurtful, to someone else.
Leave the Swastikas at home. other than that, go nuts.

Tlo1048 wrote:If anything, its teaching people to get over their vain attempts to avoid racism. Anti-Racism is racism. You can't get rid of it, you can't avoid it, get over it.

How is being opposed to racism racist. If you dislike a "racist" person solely because of their beliefs and not their race or ethnicity or national origin, then you're not being racist.

I'm not interested in an arguement about history, politics, racism, communism, facism, swastikas, jews, or gentiles...I dont care! Have fun and paint and design your models to any fashion you want.

That's fine, and respect this particular position of yours, even though I don't agree with it.. I generally fed up with the overboard political correctness we see today, and most thinks wouldn't bother me, at least not to enough to bring it up. But Nazis man, come on, and it's not just what they did to the Jew (thought they suffered the most) they tortured and murdered plenty of other groups who didn't fit their definition of perfection.

Not to mention that the Swastika was around much, MUCH before Hitler ever "Claimed" it.

This has already been covered. Yes most of us are aware of this, but the symbol is going to make 9/10 people instantly think of the Nazis.

Just have fun with your game and do what makes you happy.

I agree that he can paint whatever he wants, but he shouldn't be surprised when people are offended.

edited for grammar

It would be 100% okay to make Jihadist orks, why wouldn't it be? Like I said I've been personally affected by the "war on terror" and it doesn't bother me, its a miniature war game. As long as the guy who made it isn't passing out propaganda flyers at my local GW I don't care. My point about blackface was that it would never be represented on a military model, doesn't make any sense. It does however make sense to model some orks in the fashion I described if they already look like German soldiers from WW2. Also, DKOK Imperial Guardsmen look exactly like semi-futuristic Nazi's. I never said it wouldn't offend anyone, I said it shouldn't and that I wouldn't care if it did. Were going to have to agree to disagree here, good talk.

I have some old metal Stormboyz that I'm always a bit weary of fielding because you cant deny the "look" lol

These ain't mine but it's the same set...
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/150/untitled2zf5.jpg/

But I'm of the opinion that so long as it wasn't intended to offend or shock, then there's no problem

Well, considering my ancestry and what the Japanese and Americans did to my country during WW2... I don't get offended when I see a Japanese flag, or an American flag for that matter. Plus, I paint a very crusader-themed army and even my strict Catholic family is not offended by it. Pardon me: although I get where the hate is coming from, I don't get get it.

We're playing a game with an army that glorifies the Templars, people. If you come down to it, the crusades are about religious prejudice. Sure, one might argue it happened a long time ago. Does that mean that a hypothetical wargaming company can make Nazi-themed miniatures 800 years in the future and it'll be okay? I'm not looking for a fight, just a discussion. Food for thought for everyone.

To the OP, I think a German Army themed Ork Army would actually be pretty cool, I don't think using swastikas is necessary or advantages. Hopefully that somewhat answers your original question, which kind of has gotten lost among all the political discussion.

heartserenade wrote:
I don't get offended when I see a Japanese flag, or an American flag for that matter.

Those are national symbols with long histories, so while atrocities were certainly committed by those nations the flags themselves do not conjure images of those atrocities as instantly as the swastika does, for me anyways. The swastika doesn't make me think of Germany with it's long history before and after the Nazi, but makes me think directly of the Nazis and their atrocities.

We're playing a game with an army that glorifies the Templars, people. If you come down to it, the crusades are about religious prejudice. Sure, one might argue it happened a long time ago. Does that mean that a hypothetical wargaming company can make Nazi-themed miniatures 800 years in the future and it'll be okay? I'm not looking for a fight, just a discussion. Food for thought for everyone.

Idk, probably. The fact that there are people still living today that were directly affected by the Nazis has something to do with it. In even 200 years I doubt people will care as much about what happened in WWII nearly as much as they do today. But in the present it effects are still felt by some.

But I agree that history is full of countless atrocities, and I think how much time has pasted it a large part of how much it bothers people.

edited for grammar

Grass4hopper wrote:
Those are national symbols with long histories, so while atrocities were certainly committed by those nations the flags themselves do not conjure images of those atrocities as instantly as the swastika does, for me anyways. The swastika doesn't make me think of Germany with it's long history before and after the Nazi, but makes me think directly of the Nazis and their atrocities.

Even so, there was a time even after the war where a Japanese flag is viewed with much hatred and is associated with rape, murder and plunder. Now it's just a Japanese flag. Maybe we Filipinos in general just don't hold grudges that long.

Idk, probably. The fact that there are people still living today that were directly affected by the Nazis has something to do with it. In even 200 years I doubt people will care as much about what happened in WWII nearly as much as they do today. But in the present it effects are still felt by some.

But I agree that history is full of countless atrocities, and I think how much time has pasted it a large part of how much it bothers people.

edited for grammar

Maybe. People will be offended by 9/11 jokes but everyone can safely laugh when someone jokes about the Black Plague or Pompeii. Does that mean that we're offended not because what happened is tragic and atrocious but because the wound it caused is still present in living memory? If you think about it the crusades themselves are horrible and now we're okay with it.

Yea lets justify swastikas and bring that into this game. GIVE ME A BREAK!

On the offensive/non-offensive aspect of Nazi Orks...

I'm Jewish, and I don't care in the slightest. All I care about is that it is done well.

Seriously, don't get caught up in the connotations of the project. It's just a game, and appreciate the project for its coolness. Well done to the OP.

Thare1774 wrote:It would be 100% okay to make Jihadist orks, why wouldn't it be? Like I said I've been personally affected by the "war on terror" and it doesn't bother me, its a miniature war game. As long as the guy who made it isn't passing out propaganda flyers at my local GW I don't care. My point about blackface was that it would never be represented on a military model, doesn't make any sense. It does however make sense to model some orks in the fashion I described if they already look like German soldiers from WW2. Also, DKOK Imperial Guardsmen look exactly like semi-futuristic Nazi's. I never said it wouldn't offend anyone, I said it shouldn't and that I wouldn't care if it did. Were going to have to agree to disagree here, good talk.

I think the point that has been made in this thread is that periods where atrocities were caused by humans can only be safely broached when they have long passed out of living memory. WW2 is still in living memory and as such, Nazi symbols still generate an emotional response in many people. Just because you aren't offended yourself doesn't mean you can assume other people will be fine with it.

And you really think you can justify Jihadist Orks? Personally, I think given the current climate, that's more than a little sick. The point isn't that the material is presented on an inoffensive medium, it's that the material is presented in a way that makes light of the subject matter. And once again, you can't judge what will offend people by your own standards, being offended is something subjective to all humans.

Plus, the DKOK are a common misconception, their inspiration stems from WW1 and their uniforms are more heavily inspired by the French uniforms of the time.

Finally, I respect you for fighting for your country and I'm sorry for the atrocities that you yourself have witnessed.

Well, considering my ancestry and what the Japanese and Americans did to my country during WW2... I don't get offended when I see a Japanese flag, or an American flag for that matter. Plus, I paint a very crusader-themed army and even my strict Catholic family is not offended by it. Pardon me: although I get where the hate is coming from, I don't get get it.

We're playing a game with an army that glorifies the Templars, people. If you come down to it, the crusades are about religious prejudice. Sure, one might argue it happened a long time ago. Does that mean that a hypothetical wargaming company can make Nazi-themed miniatures 800 years in the future and it'll be okay? I'm not looking for a fight, just a discussion. Food for thought for everyone.

I don't think anyone is "hating" on anyone else. People can be passionate about their views, and when expressing them might seem to be intense but I don't really sense any hatred. What some people are arguing is that Swastikas are not appropriate to adorn your miniatures with, and others are arguing that they are.

Anyways, I think you bring up a good point here. It's interesting how memories of Japanese and Italian fascism do not carry the same level of guilt and severity as Nazism. We often portray WW2 Japanese soldiers as incredibly brave, with great fighter planes like the Zero, a powerful navy and unstoppable infantry. However, fascist Japanese soldiers were also responsible for relentless killing, rape and other atrocities on a very large scale. As for Italian Fascism, the actual birthplace of Fascism itself, there are still large reliefs and inscriptions in many parts of Rome that read "Duce! Duce! Duce" and promote the fascist rule. Nothing like that would fly in Germany, at least from what I saw in the couple months I spent there studying. I did see some kids with shaved heads and black boots stomping around toting some neo-nazi crap, but that was only once and they are just teenagers.

The Nazi party is irrevocably linked to the holocaust, which was an unprecedented scale of systematic mass murder. It also happened less than 80 years ago, was well documented, and is much in the public memory. In the public mind, it tends to overshadow other atrocities in the 20th century. On that point, it's interesting to see that genocides like that in Rwanda are probably less well known/cared about than the Nazi holocaust. Why is this? It's really hard to say, considering Rwanda was far more recent. To answer your question about a hypothetical company making Nazi-themed miniatures 800 years in the future, I think you will see something far sooner than that. Probably within the next century at least. It does have a lot to do with public memory, and that whole issue is a wound not yet fully healed.

Also, I don't get why your Catholic family would be offended by a Crusader-Themed army?

@Lord_Vader- Once again, I have never said it wouldn't offend anybody. I said it shouldn't and I wouldn't care if it did. And as far as DKOK is concerned, they do resemble German ww2 uniforms. Nobody looks at that army and says, "oh they look like French soldiers from www1". thx for that last comment, a guy a few comments ago suggested I was lying about my experiences which is more than irritating. I didn't say it to show off, the guy was trying to tell me I couldn't relate to the tragedies of war.

@Lord_Vader- Once again, I have never said it wouldn't offend anybody. I said it shouldn't and I wouldn't care if it did. And as far as DKOK is concerned, they do resemble German ww2 uniforms. Nobody looks at that army and says, "oh they look like French soldiers from www1". thx for that last comment, a guy a few comments ago suggested I was lying about my experiences which is more than irritating. I didn't say it to show off, the guy was trying to tell me I couldn't relate to the tragedies of war.

I never said you were lying, I gave you the benefit of the doubt in the end. I was telling you that you couldn't relate to the tragedies of the Holocaust, which you can not.

Lord_Vader wrote:

Thare1774 wrote:It would be 100% okay to make Jihadist orks, why wouldn't it be? Like I said I've been personally affected by the "war on terror" and it doesn't bother me, its a miniature war game. As long as the guy who made it isn't passing out propaganda flyers at my local GW I don't care. My point about blackface was that it would never be represented on a military model, doesn't make any sense. It does however make sense to model some orks in the fashion I described if they already look like German soldiers from WW2. Also, DKOK Imperial Guardsmen look exactly like semi-futuristic Nazi's. I never said it wouldn't offend anyone, I said it shouldn't and that I wouldn't care if it did. Were going to have to agree to disagree here, good talk.

I think the point that has been made in this thread is that periods where atrocities were caused by humans can only be safely broached when they have long passed out of living memory. WW2 is still in living memory and as such, Nazi symbols still generate an emotional response in many people. Just because you aren't offended yourself doesn't mean you can assume other people will be fine with it.

And you really think you can justify Jihadist Orks? Personally, I think given the current climate, that's more than a little sick. The point isn't that the material is presented on an inoffensive medium, it's that the material is presented in a way that makes light of the subject matter. And once again, you can't judge what will offend people by your own standards, being offended is something subjective to all humans.

Plus, the DKOK are a common misconception, their inspiration stems from WW1 and their uniforms are more heavily inspired by the French uniforms of the time.

Finally, I respect you for fighting for your country and I'm sorry for the atrocities that you yourself have witnessed.

Yet I bet WWI-era Ottomon Orks wouldn't make anyone bat an eyelid... Oooh I could give one a Fez!

the only problem is the ensignia. if you go pre-nazi germany the uniforms were the same and there were no racial ties and no genocidal acts were committed. I think it would be appropriate to remove the symbols (which some may find offensive i personally dont give 2 s....) otherwise nicely sculpted and a great/inventive idea

Reckoner wrote:Also, I don't get why your Catholic family would be offended by a Crusader-Themed army?

They might be offended. But they're not.

Something about putting religious iconography on toy soldiers might be mistaken for blasphemy, especially if they're Catholic symbols. If you view my gallery you would get how heavily I use them, and not just the usual Greek and Latin crosses: I use the Chi-Rho, the Alpha and Omega, The jerusalem cross, and I made heavy reference to lives of the saints. I surmised Christians wouldn't care as much as Catholics since a lot of Christian groups do not use said symbols and/or iconoclastic anyway. Maybe Catholics might feel uncomfortable about it, so I checked it first with the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church). After checking and double-checking I find that it is in no way technically blasphemous.

It's sorta like tatooing the image of Jesus or Mary on your body. Some Catholics, especially those who can remember Vatican I, might be a little irked by it.

I sorta studied Medieval and Renaissance art history back in college so I'm obsessive about Christian iconography and its history, hence my army.


As for the Nazis compared to Rwanda, I think it's more of public knowledge because let's face it, what the Nazis did is more well-known. They're the quintessential bad guys for us now, that even mowing down Nazis in games and movies is just like mowing down zombies (or Nazi zombies)-- no one would think twice that maybe they have a human aspect and you can kill as many as you want and it's not immoral.

Heartserenade, I checked out your gallery, it's very impressive! There is a lot of iconography from both Orthodox and Catholic Christianity. I spent a semester in Rome studying Italian and Roman history and had to visit almost a couple hundred different churches. It's cool you use stuff dating back to Constantine and early Christianity, I find those sorts of symbols are the most intriguing. Especially the many depictions of the Saints...man you could paint Martyrdoms forever.


I also agree with what you said about Rwanda and the Nazis. They have been iconicized as the ubiquitous villains in media and popular culture. That's why it's always interesting to see movies that take the perspective of the "other side", like The Reader or for an older war film, Stalingrad. I reccomend both.

I can't think of any better way to rob the Nazis of any shred of dignity or, dare I say it, respect they might yet have than to lampoon them as an Ork army.

EDIT: Superfluous apostrophe removed.

Reckoner wrote:Heartserenade, I checked out your gallery, it's very impressive! There is a lot of iconography from both Orthodox and Catholic Christianity. I spent a semester in Rome studying Italian and Roman history and had to visit almost a couple hundred different churches. It's cool you use stuff dating back to Constantine and early Christianity, I find those sorts of symbols are the most intriguing. Especially the many depictions of the Saints...man you could paint Martyrdoms forever.


I also agree with what you said about Rwanda and the Nazis. They have been iconicized as the ubiquitous villains in media and popular culture. That's why it's always interesting to see movies that take the perspective of the "other side", like The Reader or for an older war film, Stalingrad. I reccomend both.

Thanks! I mostly added the Orthodox flavor when I was painting the Rhino, since I find that Medieval Christian murals are a bit.... silly when put on a Rhino. And believe me, I tried painting Bayeux tapestry-like or Medieval woodblock-y images on the Rhino, and it just didn't fit. And you've been to Rome? I've always wanted to go there. My lifelong dream is to look Michelangelo's Pieta and weep at the fact that he made that sculpture when he was the same age as me.

I'm also glad that someone got the stuff I painted on my miniatures without me looking like a know-it-all trying to explain them.

Interestingly, I've watched Downfall just quite recently and it featured the last days of Hitler. I think it's more scary that they are just like us, and we can potentially think like them given and do the things they have done. I've also watched Letters from Iwojima and coming from a country who had bad history during WW2 with Japan, it is quite jarring.


Back on topic of Nazi Orks: if I were the OP, I'd gauge first how my local playgroup would feel about them, since they're the ones who'll encounter your army quite often. I believe there's a guy in our gaming club with a Nazi-themed IG army (swastikas and all). I don't know him personally but from what I can tell no one in our playgroup is really affected by it. I guess the holocaust is just not a touchy subject here.

Thanks! I mostly added the Orthodox flavor when I was painting the Rhino, since I find that Medieval Christian murals are a bit.... silly when put on a Rhino. And believe me, I tried painting Bayeux tapestry-like or Medieval woodblock-y images on the Rhino, and it just didn't fit. And you've been to Rome? I've always wanted to go there. My lifelong dream is to look Michelangelo's Pieta and weep at the fact that he made that sculpture when he was the same age as me.

I'm also glad that someone got the stuff I painted on my miniatures without me looking like a know-it-all trying to explain them.

Interestingly, I've watched Downfall just quite recently and it featured the last days of Hitler. I think it's more scary that they are just like us, and we can potentially think like them given and do the things they have done. I've also watched Letters from Iwojima and coming from a country who had bad history during WW2 with Japan, it is quite jarring.


Back on topic of Nazi Orks: if I were the OP, I'd gauge first how my local playgroup would feel about them, since they're the ones who'll encounter your army quite often. I believe there's a guy in our gaming club with a Nazi-themed IG army (swastikas and all). I don't know him personally but from what I can tell no one in our playgroup is really affected by it. I guess the holocaust is just not a touchy subject here.

Yes, have you read The Agony and the Ecstasy? I highly reccomend it if you are into Michelangelo. I'd also reccomend, if you want to actually get a good look at stuff in Rome, to go in the off-season. During the winter months tourism slows down a lot, so you would have better prices at hotels and restaurants, and way more opportunities to take in the sights (also go see Florence if anywhere else). Since I was with an academic group, we got to see things first hand and up close with a scholarly escort. The highlight of the entire tour of the Vatican was the priviledge to see the mausoleums under the foundations of St.Peter's Basilica that date back to Roman times. That is where the bones of St. Peter lay, and we were among the very few who were permitted to see them.

Anyways, that is all incredibly off topic so I apologize. I've pretty much said my piece about Swastikas on hobby models. It's a personal decision, and nobody is going to barge into your room and accost you for doing it. I am not the only person who thinks it is inappropriate, so be prepared to deal with those who take offense to such things.

To be honest after the first couple of post i was worried to post them i'll upload them tonight. After all it's art, and my interpretation on it so if you don't like it don't look at it and i'll take it down of a mod wants me too. pics to come tonight

Kroothawk wrote:Has to do with the fact that only Polish companies do Nazi orks and almost all Polish miniature companies do this. Incidently, the Germans=Nazis argument is the major election campaign theme of the nationalist party in the last two national elections. And two years ago, the Polish booth on the biggest German games fair had three board games: 2 fighting against the Germans and one fighting against the Russians. So anti-German toys are popular in that country. I am proud to say that I am not aware of any anti-Polish toys in Germany and that there is no market for such things.

I'm sorry, but I challenge your claims to Germany's moral high ground in regards to present-day nationalism.

Thare1774 wrote:@Lord_Vader- Once again, I have never said it wouldn't offend anybody. I said it shouldn't and I wouldn't care if it did.

Opinions and what offends people is extremely personal. I respect your right to offend people intentionally or not, and I respect your right to not care; those are your personal opinions. What I do find unreasonable is your expectation of what should and shouldn't shouldn't offend other people.

I'll put this as politely as I can: Who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to state what should and shouldn't offend people.

lord_blackfang wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Has to do with the fact that only Polish companies do Nazi orks and almost all Polish miniature companies do this. Incidently, the Germans=Nazis argument is the major election campaign theme of the nationalist party in the last two national elections. And two years ago, the Polish booth on the biggest German games fair had three board games: 2 fighting against the Germans and one fighting against the Russians. So anti-German toys are popular in that country. I am proud to say that I am not aware of any anti-Polish toys in Germany and that there is no market for such things.

I'm sorry, but I challenge your claims to Germany's moral high ground in regards to present-day nationalism.

As far as I know, they didn't sell anti-Polish miniatures. And I can assure you that not all Germans are imprisoned right wing terrorists.

But do you want to deny that the major opposition in Poland thinks that they can win elections with a hate campaign against Germany for the second time in a row? That is quite unique in Europe, therefore I draw a connection to the fact that only Polish companies and most Polish companies produce these brutish Nazi Ork caricatures of their neighbors.

Germantoast wrote:To be honest after the first couple of post i was worried to post them i'll upload them tonight. After all it's art, and my interpretation on it so if you don't like it don't look at it and i'll take it down of a mod wants me too. pics to come tonight

Hey while there are people here on both sides of the debate about whether it's appropriate to make the miniatures, I don;t think anyone has said you're not allow to make them if you want to.

I'm you made them, post them. I may dislike the iconography, but I can still respect a job well done. And despite anyones opinions (including my own) this subsection of the forum is about Painting and Modeling, not politics.

Germantoast wrote:.

(on a side note i don't commend anything the Nazi's did, nor do i mean to upset anyone)

I am glad you put this part in, but remember, just saying you don't mean to upset anyone, some people will still be upset.

Well done mate, its a pretty slick paint job. They do resemble the german army.

As for the discussion that has kicked off due to this, i aint got no problem seeing an ork with a swastika on, as long as it resembles a germany army and the paint job is wonderful. After all, its only a work of art. As for playing a 'Nazi' army, i dont think thats a good idea. 1 or 2 models who were done for the sheer fun of if and used for display.

History has influenced us in many ways. Why not in the way we paint warhammer?

Nazis and the holocaust is not something to glorify. Swastikas are inappropriate in the game of 40k. many people lost family members from the holocaust and fighting the germans in world war 2. I think it's incredibly inappropriate to remind them of that while being engauged in an activity that is supposed to be a fun release.

I have just this to say... this post is not about painting in any manner it has become a monster political/religious debate... i vote it gets locked/moved elsewhere....

Back on the real topic: Check out some of Micro Art Studios ork stuff (they spell it orc for their products) they have some cool bits.

I think it would be fine, as long as no swastikas are present

Alright,

@OP:

Obviously you see how heated the debate is over how closely you should paint/model your Ork army. If a simple forum gets heated like this because a post inquiry about the acceptance of a paint job and leads to extreme political, historical, and in the end moral debate, then it would be safe to say (in my opinion) that you would NOT include any iconography that wasn't of your own design.

@ everybody else:

it may only be just a game, but the holocaust wasn't just a genocide. See my comparison? Yeah, it doesn't really hold the same innocence of "it's only a game" when you're talking about the deaths of millions of people. The only reason this is debated is because you're mixing precisely these 2 ingredients into the mixture. Otherwise, I would agree: It's just a game.

I'm not asking for an argument, nor am I asking for a debate. My view is clear: the style was cool, the military was bad-ass, the logo isn't (whether or not it was pre-Hitler, association is association).

It would only take 1 person at your flgs to be offended by even a picture of your army, let alone the actual army sitting on a table to turn your day into an absolute fiasco.

Safe yourself the trouble.

Cool as it could turn out, better judgement, in my opinion, would say DO NOT DO IT.

And I agree with a previous post: This is becoming a heated political/historical/moral debate, LOCK IT UP.

Forget the greenskins, paint them flesh coloured as skinheads with lots of tattoos. Orks remind me of skinheads more than anything else and I suspect they were based in part on them.

As for the swastika:



Copy of a 3rd century AD Roman shield found in Syria in the remains of the ancient city of Dura-Europos.

Fascism IS based on the Roman Empire though (you need only look at the symbol of the fasces).

It's a horrible example of a symbol being re-appropriated into something far viler than what it once was. Hell, the swastika is the kanji for 'final' ('ban') in Japanese.

Final?
In the east it is the classic symbol for a temple, what do you mean by 'final'?

cadbren wrote:Forget the greenskins, paint them flesh coloured as skinheads with lots of tattoos. Orks remind me of skinheads more than anything else and I suspect they were based in part on them.

As for the swastika:



Copy of a 3rd century AD Roman shield found in Syria in the remains of the ancient city of Dura-Europos.

You'll also notice in your picture, the crosses are "bent" at the end, in the oposite direction from a Swastika.
Different symbol.

Ok so here is a picture of 1 of the 3 that i have made. it has symbol on the helmet but it's basically blurred in the picture so i figured this one would be ok. Also as i said i'm not making an army of nazi orks. It's just an idea i had for my shelf in my room.

alarmingrick wrote:

You'll also notice in your picture, the crosses are "bent" at the end, in the oposite direction from a Swastika.
Different symbol.

No, the swastika can be facing either way and does in both ancient art and modern religions. What's interesting about the ones on the shield is that they are on a 45° angle, something that many claim is something special to the nazis which is obviously not the case.




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Germantoast wrote:Ok so here is a picture of 1 of the 3 that i have made. it has symbol on the helmet but it's basically blurred in the picture so i figured this one would be ok. Also as i said i'm not making an army of nazi orks. It's just an idea i had for my shelf in my room.

Nice nork, or is it a nazork?


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Actually orks are very good for making mutants out of, that nork could be a dwarf ogryn.

"No, I swear, its TOTALLY OK my stormtrooper orks have nazi stamped foreheads cause its the mark of buddha, see the 12 degree difference makes it ok."

Hiel gorkler dude.

I was entering here hoping to see some cool ork models and it took until the third page for the OP to get around to it?
And he was actively afraid to post the pics?
Something is terribly wrong here, and it's not the subject of his work.

As atrocious as the nazis' actions were, and as atrocious as any other atrocity was (crusades, terror attacks, occupations, wars, what have you), censoring art and censoring the artist is always worth fighting against. Knee-jerk fear of the symbol just enhances the fear of what it symbolizes.

If a man is offended by art, that is his full and complete right.
But the artist's right is to create that offensive material. It has to be. In western society, in the modern world, freedom of speech and expression is seen as a basic human right.
If art is always safe, and never makes you think, is it art?
If you're telling the OP "THIS symbol is fine, and THIS one isn't", you are trying to censor him based on your own preferences and thoughts. It's your right to give your opinion of course, but to state it as a universal "thou must not" is simply not done.

It is the difference between taking offense at pictures of the Prophet Muhammed, and telling you that it should be ILLEGAL to portray the prophet.

If you want to make nazi orks, or jihad orks, or crusade orks, or muhammed orks, or orks pissing on a crucified Jesus, or god-knows-what-else kind of orky offensive weirdness you can think up? Go ahead. People might be offended, and that's their choice. But the creation of the object must be yours.


Love the ork, anyway, OP. Keep it up. I'd love to see some more.

I like the painting.

Personally being someone that studies history I find no problem with having a swastika painted on a model as long as one does not intend it to support what the nazi party supported.

I have seen some dkok and oddly enough other orks painted with the arm bands which looks very good they how ever did not put the swastika on the arm band rather just left it as a white circle.

You might want to consider that because for one people that do not fully understand will get offended and freak out about the swastika. But the armband will be recognizable.

For a helmet I would personally think painting it something like this picture would still keep it historical while avoiding any trouble that could be caused by a swastika.

http://www.combatplayer.com/images/WH35FGN.jpg


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I wouldnt worry too much about which way the swastika is pointing for 2 reasons.

1 people that understand what it means will not freak out usually.

2 anything that resembles a swastika is automatically a swastika to most people and they will feel offended or will get the wrong message.

So it going clockwise or counter clockwise will not make a difference.

Also most people are oblivious to the fact that the swastika existed before the nazis used it.

DERAIL!

Kroothawk wrote:
Has to do with the fact that only Polish companies do Nazi orks and almost all Polish miniature companies do this. Incidently, the Germans=Nazis argument is the major election campaign theme of the nationalist party in the last two national elections. And two years ago, the Polish booth on the biggest German games fair had three board games: 2 fighting against the Germans and one fighting against the Russians. So anti-German toys are popular in that country. I am proud to say that I am not aware of any anti-Polish toys in Germany and that there is no market for such things.

WHAT?!

I don't want to get into an argument because you know - fighting on the internet is 'silly'. But... Which Polish companies do Nazi orks? "all Polish miniature companies do this" - I wasn't aware we had any.
As for the supposed racism of polish board-game makers. The 3 games you mention, weren't they about WW2? Weren't Poles fighting Nazi Germans and Soviet Union? (You DO know that we were occupied and fought those two countries?). And what is anti-german or anti-russian in making history games? Plus: "anti-Polish toys in Germany" - do you feel that it would be approperiate to market a game about invading an otherwise peaceful country (whereas it's perfectly reasonable to market a game about fighting an evil oppressor)?

Kroothawk - I respect your view on the prejudice of poles agains germans, but I feel like your opinion about anti-germanism in Poland is highly biased. Nazi-germany is the ultimate bad guy of the era and it doesn't have anything to do with our current perception of germans, which we respect, have friends with and in many ways envy because of the better economical situation and higher standard of life (after the war).

The Grundel wrote:Nazis and the holocaust is not something to glorify. Swastikas are inappropriate in the game of 40k. many people lost family members from the holocaust and fighting the germans in world war 2. I think it's incredibly inappropriate to remind them of that while being engauged in an activity that is supposed to be a fun release.

It's funny how a topic originally talking about making Orks look like propaganda depictions of Germans has moved to some imagined implications that OP is converting plastic miniatures to goose-step, green stuffing conversions so that his Orks can look like they're burning Torahs and converting his Looted Wagons into mobile gas-vans.


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Actually did OP even mention Swastikas? I forget and am too lazy to backtrack.

The Grundel wrote:Nazis and the holocaust is not something to glorify. Swastikas are inappropriate in the game of 40k. many people lost family members from the holocaust and fighting the germans in world war 2. I think it's incredibly inappropriate to remind them of that while being engauged in an activity that is supposed to be a fun release.

While I agree that swastikas are inappropriate in 40K because it is contrary to the fluff ...

I don't think people should get so wrapped around the axle about this. Painting a swastika on a tank no more glorifies Nazism than painting a red star on a tank glorifies Communism.

The Bolsheviks/Soviets killed way more people than the Nazis did. It is estimated by historians that 20-30 million people died in the gulags and in the starvation of the Ukrainian kulaks. I am one person who "lost family members" in the gulags. Practically my whole family on my father's side died in the gulags because they were "bourgeoisie". Only one great uncle was able to survive until 1958 and was released. My grandfather and one sister were, ironically, saved from the gulags by virtue of the Germans taking them with them as they retreated in '43. I know many Polish people whose family lived in Eastern Poland and lost family members in the gulags when the Soviets shipped all the Polish elite out to Siberia.

Or what about the Chinese communists? The "Cultural Revolution" is estimated to have claimed 49-78 million lives.

Yet if someone wants to paint his Valhallans up in olive green with a red star on the tanks, then I'm not going to freak out. They guy just likes the look, he's not an apologist for mass starvations and forced labour in Siberia. Or at any rate, I'm not going to assume that he's a Stalinist and condemn him for his paint scheme. I'm also not going to let it ruin my fun of the game because seeing such miniatures might remind me of the Gulag Archipelago (on the contrary, isn't it often said that those who forget history are bound to repeat it?)

From a fantasy perspective, what if someone makes a Mongol-style army? Does that mean he's glorifying the rape and murder of every non-Mongol they could get their hands on?

Purifyingflame_7 wrote:Well, I support the paint scheme, I find it absolutely hilarious considering the Germans in both World Wars were exceptionally disciplined, whereas Orks are......well.....orky, lol. As for people giving gak about the paint scheme, the truth is that the 'Nazis' were a political party, the German army was the Wermacht, and the people killing the Jews were the SS troops Germany's secret police, and in a long way about it, the German people themselves by not taking a stand and saying no. I mean....sure, he could try silencing them....but, during war, against ones own people? Ehh. The Germans didnt mind, so they didnt stop it. The Wermacht were just good soldiers doing what they had to in a time of war, and honestly, had the Germans won, and been writing the history, the shoe would certainly be on the other foot. How would you feel if somebody considered your whole military history taboo just because of something that happened in your country by forces that didnt actually involve the military? Try to be fair guys. Its just a paint scheme, and I think its an interesting idea. I also think that I would REALLY like to see some Stormboy Sturmtroopers! ^.^

The Wehrmacht commited many warcrimes.
Don´t mind the "OMG DATZ RACISMZ!" The American flag can be just as bad as the swastika due to americas racist genocidal extermination of the native americans.

Germantoast wrote:Ok so here is a picture of 1 of the 3 that i have made. it has symbol on the helmet but it's basically blurred in the picture so i figured this one would be ok. Also as i said i'm not making an army of nazi orks. It's just an idea i had for my shelf in my room.

LOL that orks skin looks alot like mine beffore I washed with Thracka green a million times! You can see the rest of the mob on my blog if anybody wants to see; http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/357188.page#2615853

HAZZER

Space Marines are the superior race of humans in quest for racial conquest that use iron crosses and iron eagles as holy symbols. If you have problem with WW2 German themed Orks then you have to have a problem with what Space Marines could or could not imply. The point is do not look to deep into things.

@ OP:

These two webstores have great minis and bits that you might be interested in:

http://www.shop.microartstudio.com/conversion-lab-c-45.html

http://www.maxmini.eu/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=20&sort=20a&page=1

Iron Crosses? Not seen those...

It's gonna turn out I am overlooking a blatant chapter but all I can think of are the crosses used by the Knights Hospitallier (nicked by the Black Templars).

Asamof most imagery strikes me as Crusaderish.

The Eagle however, hrm... well I associate that more with the Romans but I assume that one can always bring up fascist connotations with anything to do with Rome.

I am way more uncomfortable with all the handwringing ITT about using swastikas than I would be with someone plopping down Third Reich dot army at a tournament.

There's a point where being concerned that you might offend people crosses the line into creepy historical revisionism.

I don't want to offend people either, but man I am really ooked out by this.

Henners91 wrote:Iron Crosses? Not seen those...

It's gonna turn out I am overlooking a blatant chapter but all I can think of are the crosses used by the Knights Hospitallier (nicked by the Black Templars).

Asamof most imagery strikes me as Crusaderish.

The Eagle however, hrm... well I associate that more with the Romans but I assume that one can always bring up fascist connotations with anything to do with Rome.

I really had no intention of derailing the topic even more and I am not trying to state Space Marines are Nazis however the are obvious symbol similarities. The designers could have just picked them becuase they are visually striking (which they are!), or it could be more than a coincednce that modus operandi are similar and the symbols being similar. My point is that it is a pointless speculation debate. Here are a few links.

Iron Cross:
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&source=mog&hl=en&gl=us&client=safari&q=crux%20terminatus&sa=N&biw=480&bih=242#p=0

http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&source=mog&hl=en&gl=us&client=safari&q=iron%20cross&sa=N&biw=480&bih=268#p=0

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crux_Terminatus#.TtZv_3t5nTo

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Cross (open the Second World War tab)

Iron/Brass/Bronze Eagle:
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&source=mog&hl=en&gl=us&client=safari&q=imperial%20Aquila&sa=N&biw=480&bih=208#p=0

http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&source=mog&hl=en&gl=us&client=safari&q=Nazi%20eagles&sa=N&biw=480&bih=268#p=0

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Aquila#.TtZ00Xt5nTo

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party (open the Party Symbols tab)

EDIT :: Also here is another interesting link, please read.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

Nazis and the holocaust is not something to glorify.

And can i just say that the holocaust was not mentioned once by the OP as playing any part in this theme.
He said nazi orks, you assumed holocaust as its an event that stands out among everything else.

People are far too busy reading between the lines here when they should be looking at what has been written.

I see flames models posted on dakka all the time bearing the swas.
Never a comment against that.

Take a look into the history of every army, each is based on torture, religion and genocide.

The way i view this is that it is mocking the nazi's.
You really could go to town adding amusing little bits into the army.

Also, cant remember the name, but someone said something about germans?
Germany was the 1st country invaded by the nazi's, and the worsed overall from it.
Nazi does not equal german.


Again though, i think its just a mix of views.
You have plenty of on the wall views of this, but a few rants.
Someone hit the nail on the head earlier by bringing up the japanese flag and the plague.
Also, i paint the george cross and union jack on my guard, that would offend some people.
Im just far too laid back now a days as everything pisses someone off.

Sanki wrote:Which Polish companies do Nazi orks? "all Polish miniature companies do this" - I wasn't aware we had any.
As for the supposed racism of polish board-game makers. The 3 games you mention, weren't they about WW2? Weren't Poles fighting Nazi Germans and Soviet Union? (You DO know that we were occupied and fought those two countries?). And what is anti-german or anti-russian in making history games? Plus: "anti-Polish toys in Germany" - do you feel that it would be approperiate to market a game about invading an otherwise peaceful country (whereas it's perfectly reasonable to market a game about fighting an evil oppressor)?

Micro Art Studio: Several Nazi Ork Heads and bodies (infantry and biker)
Kromlech: Nazi Ork heads, bodies and artillery, also Chaos Nazi heads.
Maxmini: Wunderrocket, otherwise Chaos Nazi heads
Scibor: Nazi Dwarfs.

No Nazi related stuff sold by Hitech Miniatures and Bitspudlo though.

And living in Poland, you know quite well that the Kaczynski brothers based their last two national election campaigns on the (contemprary) Germans=Nazis argument, so I don't need to post the related popular Polish news magazine covers portraying Chancellor Merkel as Hitler or the former Chancellor Schroeder as Nazi servant.
http://www.newpolandexpress.pl/polish_news_story-3602-kaczynski_attacks_merkel_.php

But we should keep it at that so that the thread is not further derailed.

ill be putting upsome pictures of my orks so if you want some ideas come and have a look

Jackal wrote:

Nazis and the holocaust is not something to glorify.

And can i just say that the holocaust was not mentioned once by the OP as playing any part in this theme.
He said nazi orks, you assumed holocaust as its an event that stands out among everything else.

People are far too busy reading between the lines here when they should be looking at what has been written.

I see flames models posted on dakka all the time bearing the swas.
Never a comment against that.

Take a look into the history of every army, each is based on torture, religion and genocide.

The way i view this is that it is mocking the nazi's.
You really could go to town adding amusing little bits into the army.

Also, cant remember the name, but someone said something about germans?
Germany was the 1st country invaded by the nazi's, and the worsed overall from it.
Nazi does not equal german.


Again though, i think its just a mix of views.
You have plenty of on the wall views of this, but a few rants.
Someone hit the nail on the head earlier by bringing up the japanese flag and the plague.
Also, i paint the george cross and union jack on my guard, that would offend some people.
Im just far too laid back now a days as everything pisses someone off.

this

Germantoast wrote:So I was looking at some models of orks that my friend purchased the other day, and I thought to my self, that they looked like old propaganda posters that portrayed the Germans as barbarians.... As a history major this peaked my curiousity and i purchased a couple orks to paint how I imagined they would looked like in the posters. i'll upload the pictures tonight but i wanted to get your opinion on the idea first.

(on a side note i don't commend anything the Nazi's did, nor do i mean to upset anyone)

welcome to DakkaDakka

I'm going to man up and admit that I personally overreacted.

Germantoast, when I went back an read your original post, I realize you clearly stated you were interested in build just a couple of models, and not a whole army. You also clearly stated your inspiration, the old propaganda poster that portrayed Germans and/or Nazis in a negative light. The original posters certainly were not glorifying them; the exact opposite in fact, and neither are you.

I apologize for contributing to obscuring of your original concept.

It's all very well saying that symbols similar to the swastika appeared in antiquity, but that just sounds like being a smart ass.

The swastika is universally recognised as the symbol of the nazis. Fact. Shame that it now people see genuine ancient items in museums and snigger there's a swastika, but that's how it is. That's how influential the nazis were upon popular culture. Furthermore, if someone were to put it on their orks or imperial guard, the reason they are using it is because of the nazis. Don't be disingenuous, they didn't see it on a roman shield in a history book and think that looked good to go on orks. They saw it on nazis first and that's what the genuine inspiration for their own work is. Turning around and saying that you don't mean nazi connotations becauset other people used the swastika first is not a defence when you were obviously inspired by the nazis in the first place.

My personal objection is that putting swastikas on orks is crap. People putting swastikas on their 40K models are just desperate to appear controversial like a kid taking a dump in the corner of the room. Why would aliens in the year 40,000 be wearing swastikas? It's nothing to do with the fluff, or good modelling, good gaming, and all about doing something obviously controversial and somewhat lacking in imagination because you can't think of a good theme for your army and plump for something crass and stupid.

Too much political correctness in this thread IMO.

As a purely artistic project (and as a reasonable adult), I’m going to go for it and feel free to use any symbolism that you see fit to make the project complete.

The main idea of the project as far as I can perceive is a contrasting parody in the sense that you have undisciplined Orks wearing fairly disciplined uniforms whilst emphasising the resemblance to WW2 Germany at the same time.

Personally, I see no issue with the possible use of the Swastika in the modelling project. Given use of the Swastika in modern media (comic books, movies, games), use in WW2 era miniature games and the assumption that we’re all reasonable adults, no one should be too offended by it nowadays (given the other gak to be offended by).

That being said, I personally reckon the models would look better with an Ork symbol (painted red) instead as it better emphasises the parody/contrast that the OP is trying to go for. I highly suggest using an Ork symbol on the uniforms, preferably an undisciplined/messy ork symbol (which would further enhance the contrast).

If you'd like to paint your orks as nazis, then by all means go ahead. If you live in America then it is your every right to do with your property as you see fit. If people feel offended by your miniatures then they have every right to express their opinion, leave, etc. But they can never force you to, say, destroy them or force you to repaint them.

If people get butt hurt because you've got some swastikas on your tiny plastic men, tell em to sod off. We live in a country that protects freedom of expression, not just the expressions that we deem "politically correct."

Have fun with your project!

Less crying, more pictures of Nazi Orks!

Southerners can fly the Confederate Flag :p


If this were a question of using a swastika; on IG or Orks I'd find it a little worrying as it sorta says something about the guy painting them that way... but on FoW or WWII minis, not using it is succumbing to revisionism: I think, for example, it's denying history and covering up guilt for the German govt. to disallow swastikas in video games.

Anytime you make anything about WWII and you blot out a swastika, Hitler wins.

The other 2 i made so far.... I think i have two more and then a warbosss my friend gave me.

Nice nice keep up the good work.

Are you going to paint up any tanks, zap guns or those large artillery guns?

If so would be cool to see

Great work so far, can't wait to see more.

Look good love to see more!(The modles as a whole)

HAZZER

The swastika looks added as an afterthought, and seems incongruous as tiny flag painted on an axe of all things, rather than being integrated into the theme of the figure.

NWansbutter wrote:

While I agree that swastikas are inappropriate in 40K because it is contrary to the fluff ...

Really, how do you figure that one? A billion odd planets and none of them has come up with a swastika as a symbol?

As for the topic, the reason the swastika has such a negative association in many countries is because of its use by the nazis and it being a useful symbol to refer to the nazis when anti-nazi propaganda was wanted. To suggest that the symbol not be used in a cartoonish depiction of nazis is crazy. A lot of the wartime propaganda simply placed a large swastika in the middle of a german helmet which is exactly what the nork has.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can't say I like the flag on the weapons though, would've looked better as a patch on the clothing somewhere.

Regardless of the WWI/WWII distinction, I think it's fairly offensive to be creating German Ork armies, as it's just playing up a stereotype.

I think the question you should ask yourself is, would you feel comfortable with bringing that army to Germany?

I have a friend who wants to do a CC of the USSR for his IG army, and I've tried to talk him into doing an allegory of it instead.

The difference I see between that and the Wehrmacht is that there is far less personal connection with the USSR in US society, plus GW also make an IG army that is blatantly based on the Red Army. Personally, I am against using the hammer and sickle in 40k since I feel direct symbols violate the separation of 40k and real life. I think it's certainally believable that Russians or Germans could have left Terra and setup societies that in some way are similar to the German Empire or USSR, but they aren't going to be a CC, and definitely aren't going to be using the same symbols.

I'm also opposed to any sort of WWII era Warhammer armies for psychological reasons, mainly those related to cognitive dissonance, self justification, and a general lack of public knowledge about how evil the Wehrmacht actually was.

I also don't really think we should bring this into a game of toy soldiers, but the fact that people feel it necessary requires that we address it. I only recommend that we not have flame wars and end discussion of the subject once we make clear our position.

First off, this didn't need to be necro'd.

Second, they are toy soldiers, not pinnacles of ones beliefs. Let it go.

Hahahaha great stuff man. But i have to warn you. People may get offended and stuff.. I proudly collect Soviet Guard (soviet ig) and got kicked out of 7 tournaments total xD.. but i went as far as having dead UN soldiers and propaganda banners filled with pro communist stuff

ARIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISE DEAD THREAD!

Shame you didn't stick with just the German styling on the uniforms, and also a shame that your thread was hijacked by rather pointless and often mis-informed arguments.

LazzurusMan wrote:As long as there are no swastikas I don't see what's wrong with it, it's a very interesting part of history, and I see no reason why models shouldn't be painted in ww2 german style in a universe full of ww1 and 2 style armies

There needs to be swastikas. If your going for a historical thing or not. Even if it makes them look racist. It is appropriate as long as people understand that no racial intentions are meant behind the models but for art not for any belief system.

I think it isn't a stretch to say that orks are racist.

Vasarto wrote:

LazzurusMan wrote:As long as there are no swastikas I don't see what's wrong with it.

There needs to be swastikas. If your going for a historical thing or not. Even if it makes them look racist.

How so, where is the need? Firstly the German people and their army were not all Nazi's and not all army personnel wore the symbol so why is there a 'need' for them when depicting a fictional space Ork. Secondly it doesn't make the little plastic men look racist, as I'm pretty sure they have no political leanings, it make the player look slightly silly though. I'm not saying we shouldn't do things because of what other people think but the feelings of others should at least be a consideration.

Aerethan wrote: I think it isn't a stretch to say that orks are racist.

Bit of stretch to say they have formed a political party that has designs on establishing an Empire with the extermination of 'inferior' races as a major goal though. I take your point though, fluff-wise Orks do hold themselves above other races and even above other Orks at times.

Well that is what I mean. They are genocidal towards anything non Ork, and thus racist. I do agree that they may not have the organizational skills needed for a reich.

Before this thread is locked I'd just like to remind everyone that we had the promises of a fairly edgy project that didn't imply political leanings:

OP was going to be novel and model Orks based on propaganda posters (allied); monstrous creatures looking rather germanified.

What did we get? Some crudely painted AoBR Orks likely done by a seven year old with swastikas slapped on:



This thread should be ridiculed.

Pretty sure the posters would have been German as the concept of Germans as barbarian was a major theme for the Nazi party and Hitler in particular. He invested heavily in the rediscovery of much of the Germanic history from the classical era particularly the Massacre of Teutoburger Wald. The Cheruscan chief Arminius can be arguable seen as one of Germans first nationalistic heroes, and was certainly held as such by Hitler.

The political implication was there the second he wrote Nazi Orks and not WW2 German themed Orks

Anyway probably a bit OT, sorry about that.

On a related note, does anyone know where you could find realistic mp-40's? I've made a squad of russian orks with AK's--planning on doing gringo orks, as well as Heer orks and possibly SAS orks. Shoota boyz 'round the world, et cetera. Does anyone have any ideas? I've checked out Maxmini, Kromlech and a few others but have come up short thus far.

You could try these guys;
http://www.theassaultgroup.co.uk/store/home.php?cat=23
This might also help;
http://www.lead-adventure.de/index.php?topic=12461.0

I like the way you've painted your models.

I'm painting some Wehrmacht style IG at the moment (see blog), and theming around WWII German military uniform and colour schemes, but for the record, this does not equal 'nazi-style'. I agree, lose the swastikas, but use anything else as inspiration.

Good luck with your models, I'd like to see the finished army!

I like the colour scheme it suits the orks I think.
What I would like to see is a ork driving a panzer with a massive waaaagh banner strapped to the back and some ork slogans scribbled on the side.
Keep up the good work.

Thread is being locked due to thread necromancy.

If the OP would like this reopened then please let us know.