The video of the woman ranting against black and Polish people ("What has this country come to? ... with loads of black people and load of fething Polish") on the Croydon to Wimbledon tram has caused quite a stir, generating quite a storm on social media and swiftly leading to an arrest. But I have to say it strikes me as one of the less shocking videos I've seen in my lifetime. Compared to footage of guys filming themselves attacking "pakis" on the tube, the storm over this video looks no worse than an argument over whether X Factor tweeters should be publicly flogged or not.
In fact, it reminded me a little of the brilliant sketch by Stewart Lee where his nan says: "It's political correctness gawn mad Stew". I can imagine the woman leaving the tram complaining that she couldn't even talk about immigration in her own country.
Still, I was indignant about the incident until I saw the backlash on Twitter. Piers Morgan was calling for the woman to be deported, some asked for her to be locked up, while others said her child should be taken away. And those are only the printable responses.
I hate to write an article defending such a woman but I think calling for her to be arrested and then prosecuted is over the top. I don't think such behaviour is acceptable or have a problem with condemning it. My issue is that calling for the law to get involved is about the worst way to deal with such incidents. And there are several reasons for this.
First, the law has little impact. The Race Relations Act made it illegal for organisations to discriminate but you can count the number of successful prosecutions on your fingers. It works much better in tightly defined instances of outright discrimination rather than hate speech.
What actually changed attitudes against racism was a shift in popular culture pushed by brave people. The people who joined together in solidarity against skinheads (at Cable Street in the 30s and Southall in the 80s) changed attitudes. Rock Against Racism shifted popular attitudes. Love Music Hate Racism changed attitudes. The Anti-Nazi League did. But trying to push for better social attitudes through the law is a futile task. Popular condemnation and viral piss-takes work far better instead.
Second, you may argue she can already be prosecuted under the Public Order Act or a "breach of the peace" but the law is currently an overbearing ass. It allows the police to make an arrest if someone feels "insulted". The same laws allow them to detain political activists and make arbitrary arrests.
In short, the very law that some people are cheering here can easily be used against them. Do you really want to give police the willingness to arrest people simply for having an argument?
Third, laws that criminalise hate speech almost always backfire on minorities themselves. A few years ago British Muslim organisations campaigned vigorously for a law against religious hatred, hoping it would stop the BNP from using them as electoral fodder. Labour passed the law but it did little to stop the BNP. Instead, most of the people prosecuted under the law were – you guessed it – Muslims.
There are other examples too. When Sikh playwright Gurpreet Bhatti was criticised by Sikh activists for her play Behzti in Birmingham in 2005, one Sikh group said they were planning to get her charged with racial hatred against Sikhs.
I have no problems with laws against outright discrimination. But when crafted against inciting hatred or "breaching the peace" – they almost always work against minorities and other vulnerable people rather than for them.
And let's be honest, the woman was just sitting there with a child on her lap. She offended people but posed no threat and didn't harm anyone (the person behind her had to be calmed down or it could have turned a lot uglier). It isn't the same as a group of drunken blokes swearing in a train carriage and to criminalise simply being offensive or swearing in public would have half of Britain in jail.
My fourth argument is simply this: I would rather a world where such incidents didn't exists but the world will never be perfect. I would much prefer such racism to be open and visible because there are still far too many Westminster commentators who think racism is a thing of the past.
There are still far too many reporters at tabloids who think their biased reporting doesn't have an impact. It does, and this woman is a product of the opinions of the rightwing press.
You may ask how I would have responded if I was there. Like the other woman, I would say what I've said for years – I'm English whether racists likes it or not. Then I'd go back to pretending to playing games on my phone like most people in that carriage.
Appalling. You can have freedom of speech as long as you agree with the trendy lefty people.
You see it all the time, disagree with a Daily Mirror reader even slightly and they label you a Nazi. Think we should curb immigration? Oh ok then, you worship Hitler.
Quite clearly the woman is an absolute idiot, and probably exists on wellfare herself which makes her comments all the more laughable, but there are millions of idiots! Have you walked around a sink estate?! They ALL think and talk like her! Too many kids that eat nothing but noodle doodles, too many cans of special brew, too many fags. Are we going to lock them all up?
I don't have the answer.. her language in front of her son IS disgusting, and I don't think you should be able to be that rude in front of so many people in so small a space. But couldn't they have just threw her off the train? I doubt it warrants taking her kid off her. She probably just wants a bit of a talking to by the coppers.
At the end of the day, your freedom of speech doesn't need protecting if everyone agrees with you.
If you recall, I was fully behind ISLAM4UK marching through Wooton Bassett because I think that freedom of speech is sacred. So sacred that I will stick up for people that I disagree with on pretty much everything. Unless you are actually promoting violence, then they should be allowed to say whatever they like, and as a result, moronic white trash people should also have the same courtesy. If they can burn poppies, then chav's should be allowed to say they hate everyone.
And don't even start me on Piers Morgan...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Lol. Some of the comments on the story are funny.
"Where should we send her back to Piers? Weatherspoons?"
Just throwing her off the train would have been a better solution... probably what would have happened here, because the companies don't like hate speech on their premises...
mattyrm wrote: Appalling. You can have freedom of speech as long as you agree with the trendy lefty people.
You have free speech, you don't have the right to shout at people calling them f-ing this and f-ing that, go home to "N***er-agua" as she chose to put it. Sorry but I have the censor the word because Dakka makes me even though I'm trying to simply report on it, not use it to offend.
Freedom of speech does not extend to allowing a lengthy tirade of racist abuse.
I'm guessing she was drunk or on drugs. She's lucky someone didn't hit her, I think the fact she was holding a kid saved her. The Youtube comments are just depressing.
fair play to her, she is just speaking the truth, am not english am irish and this country is just the same. if they sent all the blacks and the polish c--ts home we wouldnt be in recession, we would be able to work in our own countries.
It takes a lot to before social services take children into care, especially from deprived backgrounds where people like this woman are common. The language won't get her into trouble with social services, but if she's regularly loaded on drink and drugs that might go against her. But I guess nothing of this nature will happen.
@reds8n John Terry is innocent until proven guilty
The worst thing about this is not the racism (which is bad) but the fact that the situation was not allowed to be settled 'in house.' Other passengers criticised her and she was made to look an idiot. It should have been left at that, instead everybody seems to be jumping on the bandwagon. People are more than capable of sorting things out amongst themselves.
Piers Morgan was calling for the woman to be deported
Okay...
some asked for her to be locked up
Alright...
while others said her child should be taken away.
...Come again?
Mate, are you okay and alright with points one and two? She's from England! Where can we deport her to? Back to the off licence?
I'm not okay with them, they're just some of the more common reactions (however drastically uninformed). Demanding her child be taken away is new to me
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:@reds8n John Terry is innocent until proven guilty
The worst thing about this is not the racism (which is bad) but the fact that the situation was not allowed to be settled 'in house.' Other passengers criticised her and she was made to look an idiot. It should have been left at that, instead everybody seems to be jumping on the bandwagon. People are more than capable of sorting things out amongst themselves.
Have you seen the clip of john terry you can see him mouth the words N****** plain as day.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:@reds8n John Terry is innocent until proven guilty
The worst thing about this is not the racism (which is bad) but the fact that the situation was not allowed to be settled 'in house.' Other passengers criticised her and she was made to look an idiot. It should have been left at that, instead everybody seems to be jumping on the bandwagon. People are more than capable of sorting things out amongst themselves.
That is the 24 hour news media and the Internet at work.
Honestly, I think it's being blown out of proportion. If everyone would have just ignored her then it would have been just another hate filled person (or she was having a bad day, no way to tell). Sadly, because people are ever so sensitive she's become this great evil entity.
If you think her racism is bad, obviously you've never been to the southern united states.
Do I think the behavior is appropriate in front of a child? No. That doesn't mean this had to turn into a hate bandwagon that people are just loving to get vocal about.
I'm just going to say that I genuinely couldn't finish watching that video. To behave like that and use that sort of language, in front of children, was unacceptable! She is entitled to her opinion, but that was neither the time nor the place to express it. It was crass and ignorant in the extreme.
"You ain't British, you black"
...erm. Was under the impression there were people who were in fact both British and black, but hey.
I can't agree with her position as a racist but when she started her rant she made ONE good point. "None of you are fething English" I would have fething lost my gak if say a Scot, Irish, Cornish,or Welshman was present just to be a dick when she switched from English to British in her tirade.
EDIT: Especially a violently red Ginger
To a certain degree though being the only British person on a tram, in Britain...does seem to send a message that something are not quite right.
Breach of the peace?
Spreading racial hatred?
She probably shouldn't have been arrested (IMO she shouldn't have)
What I'm confused about is where this kind of racism comes from... Modern Britain has been built by dozens of different nationalities, if anything we have a lot to thank everyone for.
As it is I'm not 'English' according to her... not sure how I feel about that...
I think that there is also an element of "everyone is going this way, I'm going that way to be different" with it too though.
The thing with something like this is that in todays world if this goes on youtube etc, of course its going to go viral, and lots of people are going to be angry with that sort of behaviour.
I also find it annoying that when I see that kind of thing and it offends me and I say so that I get hit with labels such as "bandwagoning" and "self-righteous". Tell me why I shouldn't be angry about someone behaving in such an unacceptable manner?
I'm not bandwagoning or being self-righteous, the fact of the matter is that I find someone behaving in that manner towards another human being disgusting and offensive to the morals and standards I was raised to believe in.
Castiel wrote:I think that there is also an element of "everyone is going this way, I'm going that way to be different" with it too though.
The thing with something like this is that in todays world if this goes on youtube etc, of course its going to go viral, and lots of people are going to be angry with that sort of behaviour.
I also find it annoying that when I see that kind of thing and it offends me and I say so that I get hit with labels such as "bandwagoning" and "self-righteous". Tell me why I shouldn't be angry about someone behaving in such an unacceptable manner?
I'm not bandwagoning or being self-righteous, the fact of the matter is that I find someone behaving in that manner towards another human being disgusting and offensive to the morals and standards I was raised to believe in.
So do I, however it won't do any good to comment the video on You Tube.
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:She'd be EPIC at talking dirty. That was fun.
Cannerus is great for providing comic relief when the thread starts to get too serious. Thank you, sir!
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Kilkrazy wrote:
So do I, however it won't do any good to comment the video on You Tube.
And so I don't. However, I can still try to put my point across to those on Dakka, as I might be able to debate them round to my point of view with reason.
Castiel wrote:I think that there is also an element of "everyone is going this way, I'm going that way to be different" with it too though.
The thing with something like this is that in todays world if this goes on youtube etc, of course its going to go viral, and lots of people are going to be angry with that sort of behaviour.
I also find it annoying that when I see that kind of thing and it offends me and I say so that I get hit with labels such as "bandwagoning" and "self-righteous". Tell me why I shouldn't be angry about someone behaving in such an unacceptable manner?
I'm not bandwagoning or being self-righteous, the fact of the matter is that I find someone behaving in that manner towards another human being disgusting and offensive to the morals and standards I was raised to believe in.
So do I, however it won't do any good to comment the video on You Tube.
It's never a good idea to comment on a video on Youtube...
An off-hand comment about how you like a certain song turns into a petrol bomb debate about the Holocaust in which someone will claim it never happened and someone else will claim that the Allies wanted it to happen...
I thought the tram riders handled it well enough. Seems to me that the fact she was arrested kind of makes her a martyr though. I'm sure it's a minority, but a certain amount of people are going to be sickened by the fact that they can't speak their minds without fear of retribution.
Obama actually made a pretty good speech a few years back about racism and the way it's dealt with and effectively ignored through overreaction.
**I'm in no way an Obama honk, but this was an awesome speech**
My point being that if people aren't allowed to express distasteful and ignorant ideas, then those ideas are just left to fester and will find an outlet in increasingly obnoxious, ignorant, and violent ways.
Lint wrote:
My point being that if people aren't allowed to express distasteful and ignorant ideas, then those ideas are just left to fester and will find an outlet in increasingly obnoxious, ignorant, and violent ways.
Hilarious thing is that is exactly the explanation I've heard for why we still have OT.
Lint wrote:
My point being that if people aren't allowed to express distasteful and ignorant ideas, then those ideas are just left to fester and will find an outlet in increasingly obnoxious, ignorant, and violent ways.
I'm sure none of the other people yelling on the tram got arrested. I'd like to see what sparked this off. Surely she didn't just wander onto the tram screaming.
SlaveToDorkness wrote:I'm sure none of the other people yelling on the tram got arrested. I'd like to see what sparked this off. Surely she didn't just wander onto the tram screaming.
Interesting to see what happened before that. She's clearly angry about something from the start. OT but a lot of people on that tram/bus (?)
On the flip side ranting on a bus is not good. Excelllent way to get your clock cleaned. I don't see any legal actions unless you arrest a whole bunch of people arguing with her too, but its not my country.
Apparently she's been held for a week pending psychiatric reports - that's not typical of an arrest for anything. So clearly they think she's not in her right mind.
SlaveToDorkness wrote:I'm sure none of the other people yelling on the tram got arrested. I'd like to see what sparked this off. Surely she didn't just wander onto the tram screaming.
From what I read of the case there were a number of passengers who provoked her by being dark of complexion.
mattyrm wrote: Appalling. You can have freedom of speech as long as you agree with the trendy lefty people.
Having common sense and being a rationale, decent person isn't trendy, in fact the concept goes back pretty far, and even when it wsn't popular to do so. I'm not sure Frederick Douglass was a hipster (for example)...
As to your outrage above: I'm all for people like this being able to speak away loudly and often as it is allows you to identify them and act accordingly...
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:At the very least, that's disturbing the peace. I don't think arresting her is unfair by any stretch personally.
edit: As I think about it, she may well be safer in jail
To play devil's advocate: Talking on a bus is disturbing the peace? Better walk all the people on cellphones, plus everyone else in the bus with her.
There's more than one kind of speech. As an example, here (as you know) you can get a ticket for cussing in public. In this issue I'm a little more liberal in the sense that I'd prefer people not to yell "extreme" things. I trust that's a line that can be common-sensed as something that would rarely need to be invoked. A good example is that when walking through downtown Fort Worth there's a religious group that yells at everyone loudly that they're going to hell for their sinful ways and how all the women are whores. I wish I was exaggerating this at all. I'd be fine with a cop halling them off, because they're really effing annoying.
No, I disagree completely. In the UK A religious Group espousing such values and using such language would be ordered to cease and disperse. If they refused they would be arrested, you are allowed to protest to certain degree, depending on by-laws, Safety and Security. E.g you cannot stand hand in hand on a Motorway/freeway or a on a railway line or verbally abuse citizens going about their lawful business. In most towns and Cities you must apply for a Permit to protest, this allows the Police and such to organise resources and ensure certain groups do not end up in the same geographic area.
Read the following.
European Convention on Human Rights
Article 10: Freedom of Expression
(1) Everyone has the right of freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without inference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This Article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
(2) The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.
The key part of this is Paragraph 2... The UK is beholden to this Convention, are own laws supplement this. You cannot say what you like when you like without recourse, you are responsible for what you say if it is illegal, offensive, you will be prosecuted.
No Country in the World has free speech without responsibility, it is an ideal espoused by people who have never taken the time to study law, political science, or study philosophy. If you have true free speech, Liable and defamation would not exist.
What she was engaged in was a Clear case of "Inciting Racial Hatred" which is an Offence in UK law.
Under the Law of the United Kingdom, "incitement to racial hatred" was established as an offence by the provisions of 17-29 of the Public Order Act 1986. It was first established as a criminal offence in the Race Relations Act 1976. The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 made publication of material that incited racial hatred an arrestable offence.
Speaking as a Lay Magistrate, she could receive a custodial sentence (although this is unlikely), a heavy fine, censure and possible suspended sentence is more likely and a Criminal Record.
Britian and the US, we are cut of the same cloth when it comes to Law, we have slight variations but we are almost identical (standfast the constitutional issues) as your Case Law/Common fell out of the UK's Case Law/Common Law. Damn John Adams, I admire that man more than any other US President, he ensured the United States was built on a solid legal foundation.
There is no good government but what is republican. That the only valuable part of the British constitution is so; because the very definition of a republic is an empire of laws, and not of men.
SlaveToDorkness wrote:I'm sure none of the other people yelling on the tram got arrested. I'd like to see what sparked this off. Surely she didn't just wander onto the tram screaming.
From what I read of the case there were a number of passengers who provoked her by being dark of complexion.
So, she just starts screaming every time she sees Blacks? There's gotta be something that made her prejudices boil to the surface like that. Seriously, do you think that's the first tram ride full of immigrants she's taken?
Britian and the US, we are cut of the same cloth when it comes to Law, we have slight variations but we are almost identical (standfast the constitutional issues) as your Case Law/Common fell out of the UK's Case Law/Common Law. Damn John Adams, I admire that man more than any other US President, he ensured the United States was built on a solid legal foundation.
There is no good government but what is republican. That the only valuable part of the British constitution is so; because the very definition of a republic is an empire of laws, and not of men.
John Adams 1776
Freedom of speech is protected by the First Amendment, not common law. Its protections are quite strong.
-In the instance in the US, if she's babbling incoherencies at best she can be kicked off the bus for creating a disturbance. Most likely she just babbles (lots of homeless babble on buses).
-Religious protestors who abide by permit regulations generally have free reign as well as anyone else.
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SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
SlaveToDorkness wrote:I'm sure none of the other people yelling on the tram got arrested. I'd like to see what sparked this off. Surely she didn't just wander onto the tram screaming.
From what I read of the case there were a number of passengers who provoked her by being dark of complexion.
So, she just starts screaming every time she sees Blacks? There's gotta be something that made her prejudices boil to the surface like that. Seriously, do you think that's the first tram ride full of immigrants she's taken?
Agreed, when the video starts she's hyper pissed about something. From her body posture, she's already had an altercation with someone on or off the bus.
Sounds to me like she's drunk or stoned. I thought they other people who asked her to stop swearing were fairly reasonable- loud public swearing is a taboo in the UK.
Da Boss wrote:Sounds to me like she's drunk or stoned. I thought they other people who asked her to stop swearing were fairly reasonable- loud public swearing is a taboo in the UK.
Here also, especially in a confined locale like that.
I will admit
1) because of the accents I can't tell subtleties like that.
2) I didn't have it above whisper volume as am at work.
FRAZZ I did write standfast constitutional issues, 1st Amendment is part of the constitution. I never said US Freedom of Speech is Common or Case law, I merely commented on how much of our law is similar because of the common parentage. I agree with the rest of your post.
Oh and miss your old Avatar, the John Wayne/ Mongolian cross one!
mwnciboo wrote:FRAZZ I did write standfast constitutional issues, 1st Amendment is part of the constitution. I never said US Freedom of Speech is Common or Case law, I merely commented on how much of our law is similar because of the common parentage. I agree with the rest of your post.
Oh and miss your old Avatar, the John Wayne/ Mongolian cross one!
That was when I was a Mod. The power of TBone the Terrible (or "Terrax the Overlord" as GC calls him, along with the other wiener "Bonecrusher" and the giant tank dog "Buffles" )
is too irresistible. All tremble before him!
Sorry I saw your discussion of common law. Certain concepts came from there, but dramataically shifted once the First Amendment was put in play.
No, I disagree completely. In the UK A religious Group espousing such values and using such language would be ordered to cease and disperse. If they refused they would be arrested,
How many of those nice protesters who held up signs saying "behead those who insult islam" were dispersed or arrested again?
I know only of one.
As I recall, that level of loud abuse and bad language regardless of the target would be at least a public order offence worthy of arrest. As would also be the case if she were under the influence.
If she genuinely believes that that kind of language/behaviour is appropriate in front of children, then she probably does need at least a stern talking to from Social Services.
Freedom of Speech should never be used as carte blanche to attack others, or shout others down. Defeats the point otherwise.
SlaveToDorkness wrote:I'm sure none of the other people yelling on the tram got arrested. I'd like to see what sparked this off. Surely she didn't just wander onto the tram screaming.
From what I read of the case there were a number of passengers who provoked her by being dark of complexion.
So, she just starts screaming every time she sees Blacks? There's gotta be something that made her prejudices boil to the surface like that. Seriously, do you think that's the first tram ride full of immigrants she's taken?
Y'know, I have to agree with SlaveToDorkness here. We only see what looks like the continuation of an incident. Now, she says a lot of pretty crude anti-immigration gak (the ranting is actually pretty light on racial epithets), no doubt, but some people say a lot of crazy stuff when they're angry and intoxicated. Telling people that they aren't English and that they should go back to where they came from is hardly the crime of the century, but now this woman's life has been effectively ruined by an out-of-context youtube video which has been watched by millions and made the national news. The people she shouted at just had their journey interrupted by a racist nutcase. Big deal. It's incidents like this that make me think that if public hangings were brought back here, they'd be a tremendous success.
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mwnciboo wrote:
(2) The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.
I have to agree with the OP, I just finished watching the video... This lady is just fething obnoxious, she should be laughed at, ridiculed. Maybe even we can set the clock back five hundred years ago and throw gak at her as she walks by, but arrest why?
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:A good example is that when walking through downtown Fort Worth there's a religious group that yells at everyone loudly that they're going to hell for their sinful ways and how all the women are whores.
Gah, not those guys. Every time I hear them I think "I wonder if they'd keep screaming this gak while I'm strangling the life out of them?"
It's not a pleasant thought... surprisingly enough to some people, Id on'tl ike thinking like that.
I don't know her official charges, maybe tack on harassment charge if not the speech charge mwnciboo stated. That would certainty be easier to stick than a speech one. I am assuming there is a law about harassment similar to ones like the some states have.
166.065 Harassment. (1) A person commits the crime of harassment if the person intentionally: (a) Harasses or annoys another person by: (A) Subjecting such other person to offensive physical contact; or (B) Publicly insulting such other person by abusive words or gestures in a manner intended and likely to provoke a violent response;
She was really pushing it I thought, if she didn't have her kid she might have had her front teeth knocked to the back of her head by someone.
Just saying, maybe it wasn't the content of her speech she was getting arrested for.
Jihadin wrote:Hopefully I won't suprise anyone here when I say this....I don't talk about the insurgents like this...even the bastars that plants IED's
Those feths SHOULD go back to where they came from - Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria...
Jihadin wrote:Hopefully I won't suprise anyone here when I say this....I don't talk about the insurgents like this...even the bastars that plants IED's
Those feths SHOULD go back to where they came from - Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria...
The latest: A woman has appeared in court after a video apparently showing a passenger abusing ethnic minority people on a south London tram was posted online.
Emma West, of New Addington, Croydon, was accused of a racially/religiously aggravated intentional harassment.
The 34-year-old was remanded in custody while reports are prepared.
She is next due to appear at Croydon Magistrates' Court on 6 December.
British Transport Police said the YouTube clip was of an incident on the Croydon-to-Wimbledon Tramlink route.
I'm sorry gentlemen, but the Law is the Law. Whether you agree or like it, is not the Laws concern. Equally there is no point deciding she is guilty or innocent. You haven't seen the evidence, merely a couple of minutes of video. She is behaving inappropriately in public in the video, but at Court they will establish the facts of the case.
If there has been an incident, she should have reported it, taking the law in to your own hands/ vigilantism is not tolerated. Verbal, Physical or mental abuse is not justifiable even in defence of yourself, only Self-Defence in the most extreme of cases were the subject was in genuine fear of physical harm, injury or death.
Policing in the UK is by Consent, in the UK a Constable (Read Police Officer) may arrest anyone based upon "Reasonable Grounds" of an Offence being committed. The Police will then Investigate and present the evidence to the Magistrates Court via the Crown Prosecution Service. If it is beyond the powers of Punishment for a Magistrate or a Serious Offence, it will be referred up the chain to "Crown Court".
Policing in the UK is alot more tolerant, than other places I have been, the US Police when I visited Seattle a few years back, were pretty draconian, especially with Homeless people around the Smith Tower which I was pretty shocked at.
Heaven: where the police are British, the cooks French, the mechanics
German, the lovers Italian, and it is all organized and run by the Swiss.
Hell: where the police are German, the cooks British, the mechanics
French, the lovers Swiss, and it is all organized and run by the Italians.
Jihadin wrote:
Hopefully I won't suprise anyone here when I say this....I don't talk about the insurgents like this...even the bastars that plants IED's
Those feths SHOULD go back to where they came from - Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria...
I need to clarify. We/I use much more colorful words then her. One in particualar would involve the word "Haji"
Hmmm, I honestly do not know what to think about this. I don't condone what she said but immigration IS a problem and is the proverbial elephant in the room.
Something does need to be done about it. Too many people are feeling like strangers in their own country as the UK has opened up its borders to too many EU countries resulting in major tensions in the workplace as many jobs go to people who do not speak our language (one of the first things you SHOULD learn if you wish to emigrate to a country IMO) and young people cannot get jobs (although it appears many of them do not want them anyway so they ship in cheap eastern European labour, cause and effect...)
I'm all for diversity in a country but there IS an upper limit and I believe the UK has gone well past that, when you look around you and see a hell of a lot of people for whom English is not their primary language and appear to have an unwillingness to use and/or learn it (which I firmly believe is a major part of these tensions as it smacks of unwillingness to integrate to a lot of people) you feel like a foreigner in your own country. When they have to hire bilingual teaching assistants (allegedly) as the class is full of Polish students who supposedly don't speak a word of English yet our school system has let them in anyway you know there is a problem.
Whilst this woman lacked tact and subtlety she speaks a deeper truth IMO. People in this country do get frustrated with the amount of immigrants. it's just in public we have the good old British stiff upper lip so we just roll our eyes and move on.
ArbeitsSchu wrote:Never could get on with the way people use "Freedom of Speech" to demand the right to just be abusive.
Because if its nearly absolute, as it is in the US, it generally is actually. Again, in the US she could be kicked off the bus if the bus driver was brave enough, or arrested if it reaches the level of disturbing the peace (thats not it).
Grimtuff wrote:Hmmm, I honestly do not know what to think about this. I don't condone what she said but immigration IS a problem and is the proverbial elephant in the room.
Something does need to be done about it. Too many people are feeling like strangers in their own country as the UK has opened up its borders to too many EU countries resulting in major tensions in the workplace as many jobs go to people who do not speak our language (one of the first things you SHOULD learn if you wish to emigrate to a country IMO) and young people cannot get jobs (although it appears many of them do not want them anyway so they ship in cheap eastern European labour, cause and effect...)
I'm all for diversity in a country but there IS an upper limit and I believe the UK has gone well past that, when you look around you and see a hell of a lot of people for whom English is not their primary language and appear to have an unwillingness to use and/or learn it (which I firmly believe is a major part of these tensions as it smacks of unwillingness to integrate to a lot of people) you feel like a foreigner in your own country. When they have to hire bilingual teaching assistants (allegedly) as the class is full of Polish students who supposedly don't speak a word of English yet our school system has let them in anyway you know there is a problem.
Whilst this woman lacked tact and subtlety she speaks a deeper truth IMO. People in this country do get frustrated with the amount of immigrants. it's just in public we have the good old British stiff upper lip so we just roll our eyes and move on.
I had a friend that traveled across the pond on some school affairs, and what he told me about it London pretty much matches up with what I'm hearing. A country where immigrants have become the minority, and people generally don't like it. You guys also like to call the cops on everyone too, or at least that's the impression he got. Told me how he saw a coke machine that was quite unlike anything we had in the states, and he proceeded to take a picture then some women popped out and threatened to call the cops unless he left. Wonder if the immigrants and tension are related...
Grimtuff: I'm biased, because I'm a "bloody immigrant" (but no one minds me, because I'm white and I speak accented english), but I think a significant minority in the UK have a hysterical xenophobic attitude towards immigration. I think the fact that the UK successfully mixes so many cultures is a great thing, one of it's most positive aspects.
There are a whole lot of UK emigrants abroad too, you know. I bet they wish foreign governments would provide language support for their kids.
And lastly, (since I've moved to the UK this is a pet peeve of mine) the UK is in the EU. It's not part of the Euro, but it is part of the European Union. The level of ignorance on European matters I encounter daily is mind boggling.
It depends on whether you see immigrants as increasing the strength of the nation or denying you opportunities. People's perceptions about that are filtered and affected by all kinds of information, misinformation, and cognitive biases.
My aunt was unhappy that a mosque is being built near where she lives, but she was very happy to be rescued by a bunch of muslim guys when her car broke down disastrously. Now she doesn't know what to think about it.
Kilkrazy wrote:Some people get frustrated and others don't.
It depends on whether you see immigrants as increasing the strength of the nation or denying you opportunities. People's perceptions about that are filtered and affected by all kinds of information, misinformation, and cognitive biases.
My aunt was unhappy that a mosque is being built near where she lives, but she was very happy to be rescued by a bunch of muslim guys when her car broke down disastrously. Now she doesn't know what to think about it.
I am very happy with my immigrant wife.
I am happy with my foreign wife too. She's a Yankee, but our marriage survives anyway.
Da Boss wrote:Grimtuff: I'm biased, because I'm a "bloody immigrant" (but no one minds me, because I'm white and I speak accented english), but I think a significant minority in the UK have a hysterical xenophobic attitude towards immigration. I think the fact that the UK successfully mixes so many cultures is a great thing, one of it's most positive aspects.
There are a whole lot of UK emigrants abroad too, you know. I bet they wish foreign governments would provide language support for their kids.
And lastly, (since I've moved to the UK this is a pet peeve of mine) the UK is in the EU. It's not part of the Euro, but it is part of the European Union. The level of ignorance on European matters I encounter daily is mind boggling.
FWIW I see everyone on the train in the offending video as "British", there are just too many cultures that have been here too long to be considered anything else, hell they even talk like us. Which brings me to my next point, one of the greatest things I like seeing in this country is when 2nd+ generation members of immigrant families pick up the accents of their respective areas where they moved to, it just shows a wonderful assimilation that shows they have truly "connected" with their adopted nation (that and having your national dish in a tin according to one Jamie Oliver! :p).
Yes, the "Johnny Foreigner" buck has been passed to the eastern Europeans, so much so there's even a black guy (who looks a little like Danny John Jules FWIW) who quite regularly comes into the supermarket I work in and complains about the "bloody foreigners", whilst there is a certain amount of facetiousness to what he is saying, it goes back to my previous point that if you closed your eyes you would not know this guy was not white.
Thing is, I can honestly say it is somewhat hard to say what is this so-called pure British is that the BNP keep harping on about as our native peoples have been raped and pillaged by Vikings, Saxons, Romans etc. and others throughout history we're a bit of a mongrel nation. Heck even our national dish isn't ours, it was the Portuguese who first cooked fish in batter and brought it to the UK.
Whilst I believe we have reached a tipping point in the UK as some areas are more "overrun" than others (Peterborough being one of the worst apparently), something does need to be done about it, instead of just ignoring it for fear of being called a fascist.
You know why the level of ignorance on European matters is high?
Because they are never in the news, what we do get is a very brief summary, the mainstream media is too busy telling us about the back of beyond.
I think it's quite humorous that you think people should go out of their way to find this stuff out. Keeping up with the news is a fairly dedicated task if you want to understand what is going on completely. What the feth is the BBC for if it won't bring us the important news that is relevant to us? It's not the failing of the people, it's the failing of the media.
Also, where does the money for bilingual teachers come from?
I'm all for immigration, but it should require some effort. You don't just turn up and expect the country to fund your new life. Obviously genuine asylum seekers should be exempt from this, but that isn't immigration. Boss, you are clearly a skilled immigrant from an English speaking country. It's somewhat disingenuous to compare yourself to, for example, and unskilled Eastern European with a minimal grasp of the language looking for the myriad benefit schemes they can enjoy.
When speaking about freedom of speech and expression, context is key. Same for this hateful wench as for the Islam4UK people who wanted to protest.
I stand by my position that the act of burning poppies isn't illegal and should never be, what with the poppies being a symbol of people who died to secure freedom of expression, even at its most idiotic.
Watch the language please ! Reds8n
But if you then burn them at a Remembrance Day parade with the express intent of upsetting veterans and their families, rather than say at your mosque with a few other gakkers, then that is a crime
Same for this woman. Being a racist witch to your friends is a far cry from screaming it at terrified children and strangers on a tram.
And as for ‘Keep Britain British’, what a load of cockwash. Britain is Pictish, Norman, Danish, Saxon, Celtish, Roman…
Unless you can, truthfully, quote the following line, you have no right to utter those idiotic words: 'I can trace my fackin' 'eritage back to the north-west Pangaean proto-chimpanzees, innit.’
Medium: The poles in Ireland at least were usually pretty well technically educated and were recieved pretty happily.
As to your point about the responsibility to educate oneself on international issues, I just disagree with you there. It's not hard to suss this stuff out. I do think British education is perhaps a bit myopic in this sense, I remember learning about the structure of the EU in Civics but I don't see that being taught here really- just a bunch of personal, social, health and economic wishy washy nonsense being repeated over and over. But I don't blame the media particularly.
Medium of Death wrote:You know why the level of ignorance on European matters is high?
Is it because the teachers arent at school to teach people because they are all on strike even though they get a fair wage, a fair pension, good working conditions and 12 weeks holiday a year?
Sorry....
I had to get a strike one in somewhere!
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Miraclefish wrote:When speaking about freedom of speech and expression, context is key. Same for this hateful wench as for the Islam4UK people who wanted to protest.
I stand by my position that the act of burning poppies isn't illegal and should never be, what with the poppies being a symbol of people who died to secure freedom of expression, even at its most idiotic.
Watch the language please ! Reds8n
But if you then burn them at a Remembrance Day parade with the express intent of upsetting veterans and their families, rather than say at your mosque with a few other gakkers, then that is a crime
Same for this woman. Being a racist witch to your friends is a far cry from screaming it at terrified children and strangers on a tram.
That was most excellently put. I agree that the chav woman shouldnt have been arressted as I support the rights of Muslims to light things and be equally obnoxious, however, I cant argue with any of that logic. I suppose you dont have the right to ram gak down peoples throats..
I suppose the Education system is partly to blame, I just think that after watching the BBC you would think that the rest of Europe just sits and twiddles their thumbs.
As you know most people pay a TV license for the beeb, and I would assume that they should be giving the best coverage of European affairs and other matters that will directly affect us.
What I think we need to do is find a way to make it that only tax-payers are British Citizens and deport everybody else that doesn't pay tax... within reason.
We could have great 'Dole Warrior' ships, and embark them on a journey to the 'New Third World'
The news channels also have regular stories about, from and relating to Europe and there's regular European coverage in the form of specials and the like. I'm not quite sure whate lse they're supposed to do ?
She disserved what she gets, if she has a problem with none British people the worst thing to do is shout about it on a train. It wouldn’t kill her to keep her mouth shut. However, if she has just lost her job I can under stand why she is angry. If she has a problem, be civilised and complain formerly to their local MP. But to be honest I think that is really outrageous and that she said such things. Luckily I’m am not in that race or culture so it wouldn’t disrespect me as much if I was from another country with a different skin colour. I have already made my choice that she should go to jail. I hope no one may find what I have written offensive on any way and I’m am not meaning to be in anyway but only trying to put my view across in a fair argument.
Radio 4 - the Intelligent Radio station, the best quality radio station in the world. Listening to just a couple of hours a day will improve your Knowledge and develop your intellect.
mwnciboo wrote:Radio 4 - the Intelligent Radio station, the best quality radio station in the world. Listening to just a couple of hours a day will improve your Knowledge and develop your intellect.
Might as well be. "Radio 4 LIES!" doesn't have the same ring to it as Fox News.
mwnciboo wrote:Radio 4 - the Intelligent Radio station, the best quality radio station in the world. Listening to just a couple of hours a day will improve your Knowledge and develop your intellect.
Might as well be. "Radio 4 LIES!" doesn't have the same ring to it as Fox News.
I don't quite follow, is this insulting BBC Radio 4 because you think it tells untruth's or is it irony implying that Fox News tells Lies? I am confused by the "Might as well be" bit.
Radio 4 has excellent journalism, it's political hue is slightly left of centre (because it is BBC) but it is very slight, and is generally very balanced.
On the Foxnewslies.net issue, I do not listen to internet published nonsense, same as anything produced by Michael Moore or other extremists of any political/religious/conspiracy views.
Accountability is key, in the UK we are dealing with this with the so called "Phone Hacking Scandal". There was an interesting programme on BBC 4 (TV channel) about the rise of the Huffington post and various internet media and how the New York Times has been struggling, and the most interesting thing is that many of these sites, take items off the New York Times Website and the BBC News website and then rehash them and publish them as their own stories.
Radio 4 is great. When I was doing hours of practical work in the lab I used to listen to it all day. Woman's Hour and Afternoon Play are good. Even got into the Archers for a while.
After WWII, many africans, asians and carribeans came in to help the work force.
Jews came here from eastern europe seeking asylum, as the Nazi regime was endangering their lives.
Currently, many migrants are flowing in from the EU for better working conditions and pay.
Our current royal family is part german.
Throughout history, we've had danish kings, german kings, french kings and roman conquerors.
If this woman thinks these people are not part of Britain, she clearly is naive and narrow minded.
Castiel wrote:I'm just going to say that I genuinely couldn't finish watching that video. To behave like that and use that sort of language, in front of children, was unacceptable! She is entitled to her opinion, but that was neither the time nor the place to express it. It was crass and ignorant in the extreme.
I couldn't finish watching that because it was boring.
Racism does exist on public transport both ways of course, but the best thing to do is just kick them off of the tram or bus at the next stop. A bus driver kicked a black guy off of a bus because he kept calling a white guy a "white devil" at the top of his lungs. This was after the white guy had made a request for the black guy to turn down his portable DVD player that was playing Boondocks on it, the white guy asked him to turn it down because they happen to shout the N-Word a lot in the Boondocks.
