I dont recall the thread, but a few months back I told you lot that my missus told me that a huge percentage of American women are raped in comparison with the UK, and I dismissed it as her ragging on her home country, as she does it alot..

Anyway, I read this today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-16192494

Rape affects almost 20% of US women, study says

early 20% of women in the US are raped or suffer attempted rape at some point in their lives, a US study says.

Even more women, estimated at 25%, have been attacked by a partner or husband, the Centers for Disease Control said.

The findings form part of the first set of results from a nationwide study surveying sexual violence by intimate partners against men and women.

More than 24 people a minute reported rape, violence, or stalking, it says, with 12 million offences reported.

Experts at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) described the results of the first year of the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey as "astounding".

Among the key figures included in the survey's findings were:

more than one million women were raped in the 12 months prior to the survey, estimates show
more than six million women and men were a victim of stalking
more than 12 million women and men reported rape, physical violence or stalking by an intimate partner over the course of a year.

People who experience sexual violence, stalking or intimate partner violence often deal with the effects for their entire life," said Dr Linda Degutis, director of CDC's National Center for Injury Prevention and Control.

Many of those attacked experience rape or sexual assault in their early years, with almost 80% of rape victims suffering their ordeal before the age of 25.

Some 35% of women raped before they were aged 18 were also raped as adults, Dr Degutis added.

Among the effects measured by the study, Dr Degutis said, were increased fears for safety and incidents of post-traumatic stress among victims.

Clinical conditions including asthma, irritable bowel syndrome, diabetes, frequent headaches, chronic pain and difficulty sleeping were also more likely in women who are raped or subject to assault.

There were also clear findings about the incidences of attacks on men and observations about health impacts on men who suffer rape or sexual assault.

An estimated one in 71 men has been raped at some point in their lives, the study finds.

Almost 53% of male victims experienced some form of intimate partner violence for the first time before the age of 25. Some 25% of male rape victims were first raped when they were 10 years old or younger, the findings show.

The study data was based on a survey of 9,086 women and 7,421 men from around the US, the CDC said. Results were weighted in an effort to ensure nationally representative results.

Researchers conceded that sample size limited the study, but said they felt the methods used in the survey were likely to encourage genuine responses.

Research was carried out in a health context, the CDC said, without involvement of law enforcement, in an effort to ensure respondents felt able to describe incidents that could have involved close friends or family members.

Ive discussed this topic with the missus many times in the past, because I flat out didnt believe it.

What possible reasons can you suggest, in that our culture and countries are almost identical, we speak the same language, we are pretty much identical in so many regards, and yet there is such an enormous divide with these figures between the US and Europe/Canada/Australia/New Zealand for example.

Or will the figures be similar in the other first world nations, and we are in a state of collective denial?

For myself, I just cant fathom that one in every five goes through something like this.. If I was to make an uneducated guess I would have said maybe 1 in 50?

Thoughts?

There are significant differences between US and UK cultural and social attitudes.

That's not good...
Wonder why it's so high?

Horrible! Makes a person sick. By chance do you know what the comparable numbers are for the U.K.?

I see this stuff and makes me wish that the sentencing for rape was equal to that murder, in both cases the perpetrator has taken a life.

Kilkrazy wrote:There are significant differences between US and UK cultural and social attitudes.

You honestly think so?

I've lived in both.. I dont believe that to be the case. I can be convinced though, what would you say is a "significant" difference then?

A gun to the head makes people more compliant and less likely to fight back would seem the obvious reason.

mattyrm wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:There are significant differences between US and UK cultural and social attitudes.

You honestly think so?

I've lived in both.. I dont believe that to be the case. I can be convinced though, what would you say is a "significant" difference then?

The drinking culture in the UK is different from the US...
Social taboos on nudity and violence are different...
At least. That is what it seems like i haven't been there before. I would like to visit the US one day but i have neither the time or the money right now...

Heck, different parts of the UK and US have different cultures.

I think the statistic is utterly bogus. HOWEVER, as a husband and father, one is too many. How do we reduce it ?(ok exterminating rapists would be a start but for some reason people get their panties in a wad about that).

shock horror, human nature debased, pointless and cruel.
Yawn.

Frazzled wrote:I think the statistic is utterly bogus. HOWEVER, as a husband and father, one is too many. How do we reduce it ?(ok exterminating rapists would be a start but for some reason people get their panties in a wad about that).

I'm fairly liberal about that but frankly i think they deserve it...
The problem is that guilt isn't always certain...
Maybe it should be an option...


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Joey wrote:shock horror, human nature debased, pointless and cruel.
Yawn.

Aren't you the cynical one...


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Easy E wrote:Heck, different parts of the UK and US have different cultures.

Fairly true...

purplefood wrote:
The drinking culture in the UK is different from the US...
Social taboos on nudity and violence are different...
At least. That is what it seems like i haven't been there before. I would like to visit the US one day but i have neither the time or the money right now...

See, none of that is significant.

I had two lads from Oklahoma visit this weekend, we started in the boozer at midday on Saturday, and we drank in 14 pubs (I know cos Scott wrote all the names down on a beermat!) drank about 16 pints, got a kebab, we have exactly the same mentality, same craic, same conversations (sports, booze, birds, politics, general gak). American men like getting leathered as much as we do, they just have less time off and live father away from boozers so they dont drink quite as often, but there is no significant difference.

As is the taboo on violence.. Possibly sex to a small degree, but not significant surely?

Matty, two men from the Bible Belt don't represent all of America.

And we have a ton of sex and violence. But possibly less crazy tabloids, which could factor into it.

Of course they dont, ive lived and worked in about 5 States, my point was exactly that I dont see any significant differences.

We have a ton of sex and violence too, have you ever been to the UK? Its not like we walk around with top hats on and talk about tea all day.

Thats exactly my point, perhaps there was a significant difference a hundred years ago, but now?!

My favourite movie was Robocop when I was 8!

America is the prude of the world, I think everyone knows that by now. Violence is okay, but as soon as sex is involved we don't like it nearly as much. In fact, if the middle east was filled with nude people we wouldn't invade because its just too icky for us to handle.

There's lies, damn lies and then there's statistics.

Chowderhead wrote:Matty, two men from the Bible Belt don't represent all of America.

And we have a ton of sex and violence. But possibly less crazy tabloids, which could factor into it.

Just the good parts, but agree less crazy tabloids (except the parts with aliens and such).

Rape is widely acknowledged as shockingly underreported. From a psychological standpoint, actually pressing charges is often worse than simply repressing the assault.

It's sort of a good news/bad news type of situation. While rape is far more common than we think, the majority of victims recover.

I'd be surprised if a similar survey in other western nations didn't reveal similar statistics.

"How to lie with Statistics" was a nice little story I read once.

Rape is a tender subject and that was something we had to learn about in our EMT class. A lot of rape victims feel like showering afterwards, but you're not supposed to let them because it can remove evidence and its preferable to have an EMT of the sex oppossite of the gender of the rapist. So if a woman is raped you should have a female EMT deal with it, but damn its just domething that messes people up physically and psychologically.

mattyrm wrote: Of course they dont, ive lived and worked in about 5 States, my point was exactly that I dont see any significant differences.

We have a ton of sex and violence too, have you ever been to the UK? Its not like we walk around with top hats on and talk about tea all day.

Thats exactly my point, perhaps there was a significant difference a hundred years ago, but now?!

My favourite movie was Robocop when I was 8!

I think, if anything, the fact that you have more actual (but not debilitating) sex and violence is why the US has more of both in media. From my understanding of the UK, simply fights are not uncommon, and most people understand that people like to get down.

Repression does some weird stuff to us.

mattyrm wrote: Its not like we walk around with top hats on and talk about tea all day.

And then my ENTIRE day was ruined. :(

daedalus wrote:

mattyrm wrote: Its not like we walk around with top hats on and talk about tea all day.

And then my ENTIRE day was ruined. :(

That's because they wear bowler hats nowadays.

I actually get mistaken for someone from the US more so than not. I have a US styled army jacket, but with UNSC shoulder patches and a Halo Reach patch over the front pocket, folks assume its US military.

The fact I wear a Broncos cap as well probably doesn't help.



As to the statistics, wouldn't like to say, I can sadly believe the numbers, but I'm guessing these aren't a reported number but an estimate they have expanded upon based on the numbers they have taken.

Still terrible to read mind.

.

Castiel wrote:

daedalus wrote:

mattyrm wrote: Its not like we walk around with top hats on and talk about tea all day.

And then my ENTIRE day was ruined. :(

That's because they wear bowler hats nowadays.

Exactly, at least they all laugh like this "Oh-ho-ho-ho" and use umbrellas as walking canes still.

@Warork, one of the other reasons is all biological/psychological. You have girls who look 18 but are actually 15 or even younger now and days, the other issue is that some of these girls want to act like they're grown up and that gets them into some unsavory situations. Unfortunately sometimes there isn't an actual parent who is willing to tell them that they shouldn't go to a certain place because there is a chance that something bad may happen to them. I'm not blaming the girls for getting raped, I'm blaming parents for not taking care of them like they should. Then there's body image issues, at around 15 years of age there is one gender that wants to have sex and that gender is made up of boys. Statistics also say that if two 14 year olds were to engage in sexual activity there is a ~60% chance that the girl is going to regret it or didn't want to in the first place. This is just consensual sex too.

Reason for the above being that girls who mature early tend to have body image issues due to extra fat deposits readying them for biological roles and of course hormones changing the overall personality. It is better for a boy to mature early than it is for a girl to mature early as well for these reasons.

Young people don't know how to handle these situations because our sexual education in the US is basically comprised of "Don't do it" being repeated over and over again. They don't talk about how to avoid situations or how to deal with them should they arise.

halonachos wrote:

Castiel wrote:

daedalus wrote:

mattyrm wrote: Its not like we walk around with top hats on and talk about tea all day.

And then my ENTIRE day was ruined. :(

That's because they wear bowler hats nowadays.

Exactly, at least they all laugh like this "Oh-ho-ho-ho" and use umbrellas as walking canes still.

No no no, the laugh is "Hawhaw!"

No, that's american southern. The British are pretty haughty with their laughter.

Although we've come a long way, I think there still many ways in which men's attitudes towards women are somewhat primitive.

Case in point, is there any practical reason why Black Widow doesn't zip her jump suit all the way up? No there isnt. It's purely a sex thing.



I'm no prude and don't object to the above image in any way shape or form, but it's illustrative of how western society views women. That's not to say other societies are any better, but everytime I see Zoo, Nuts, FHM and the like in the newsagent, I wonder sometimes if we're the ones who have regressed.

Regressed vs. who exactly? Saudi Arabia? (cue article about executing a "sorcerus").

What's a newsagent?

mattyrm wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:There are significant differences between US and UK cultural and social attitudes.

You honestly think so?

I've lived in both.. I dont believe that to be the case. I can be convinced though, what would you say is a "significant" difference then?

Your personal experience is essentially subjective. Your own personality will lead you to seek out situations and experiences that you find congenial. If you take those as typical, you bias your view of the two nations.

In fact, scientific studies show there are differences. Individualism is higher in the USA, for example. Britain is more socialistic.

When you look at attitudes to public healthcare you can see this is true.

@flashman - There was something about the 'lads' mags on a program the other day, a study showed I think about 20% regular readers (youngmen aged 18-24 If I'm remembering right) shared expressions in their speech and ideals that matched up with convicted rapists. It wasn't suggesting they had done ahything, but the shared mentality in their views on women where very close.

Pretty horrfying when you consider it.

Scientific proof number one: The US doesn't have newsagents.

@MDS, its the biological urges speaking. The numero uno concern a man has at 15-25 is getting laid, everything else is just a byproduct of that process. Do you think people get a job just to work, no they do it to get money so they can go about getting laid. On another side note, men are usually incredibly happy with their first time, but that begins to wane with age, at about 25 years of age both men and women have about a 1/4 chance of truly wanting to have sex when they do have sex or regretting the decision to have sex.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:@flashman - There was something about the 'lads' mags on a program the other day, a study showed I think about 20% regular readers (youngmen aged 18-24 If I'm remembering right) shared expressions in their speech and ideals that matched up with convicted rapists. It wasn't suggesting they had done ahything, but the shared mentality in their views on women where very close.

Pretty horrfying when you consider it.

That can be so bogus its not funny. Serial killers and normal people probably both say "I'm hungry." That doesn't mean they have a shared mentaility, just a shared use of the English language.

I will note, for a while there Boy and friends started using the term "raping" or really "raped" in game usage. Frazzled went apeshit and they quit using the phrase at least at the house.
I blame geeks.

halonachos wrote:Scientific proof number one: The US doesn't have newsagents.

I think you call them corner stores

Frazzled wrote:

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:@flashman - There was something about the 'lads' mags on a program the other day, a study showed I think about 20% regular readers (youngmen aged 18-24 If I'm remembering right) shared expressions in their speech and ideals that matched up with convicted rapists. It wasn't suggesting they had done ahything, but the shared mentality in their views on women where very close.

Pretty horrfying when you consider it.

That can be so bogus its not funny. Serial killers and normal people probably both say "I'm hungry." That doesn't mean they have a shared mentaility, just a shared use of the English language.

I will note, for a while there Boy and friends started using the term "raping" or really "raped" in game usage. Frazzled went apeshit and they quit using the phrase at least at the house.
I blame geeks.

I remember when "fragging" meant killing an unpopular senior officer in the military, back in the good ole' wholesome times.


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Flashman wrote:

halonachos wrote:Scientific proof number one: The US doesn't have newsagents.

I think you call them corner stores

Corner store, is that like a strip mall?

.

Rape is a crime of violence and the assertion of power rather than sexual frustration.

What education do you need?

Frazzled's fatherly advice:
"If he gets uppity, kick him in the nuts. If that doesn't work, shoot him 14 times."

What am I missing?

Kilkrazy wrote:Rape is a crime of violence and the assertion of power rather than sexual frustration.

Yeah, its just tied with sexual activity because that is one way to show dominance.

As far as educating kids go, the kids I babysit haven't learned about this stuff yet which is good because none of them are older than 9, but they have learned a bit of self defense. The oldest, girl, showed me what they learned one day but thought it was fun and games, I told her that it was okay to hit lightly( they learned to kick shins and stuff, nothing to do with sexual regions) to show a friend, but that if they were doing it to a stranger then she needed to hit them as hard as possible. She asked why and told her that it was so she could run away and get someone else to help. I know that I tense up whenever I take them to swim lessons because I can walk the boys through the men's locker room, but I can't walk her through the women's locker room, stuff like rape can happen to anyone and be done by anyone and that's why I worry.

Kids don't learn about rape and don't know what could happen to them, but its not like we can tell every 4 year old about it and how to stop it. Kids should be taught that there are certain spots that, if touched, warrant physical attempts to get away and find someone to help them. I know that even if I can't be in the locker room with her, she learned from her parents about that stuff so that if she ever tells me that something happened I can lay the hammer down

Frazzled wrote:What education do you need?

Frazzled's fatherly advice:
"If he gets uppity, kick him in the nuts. If that doesn't work, shoot him 14 times." Then kick him in the nuts.

What am I missing?

That.

Flashman wrote:Although we've come a long way, I think there still many ways in which men's attitudes towards women are somewhat primitive.

Case in point, is there any practical reason why Black Widow doesn't zip her jump suit all the way up? No there isnt. It's purely a sex thing.



I'm no prude and don't object to the above image in any way shape or form, but it's illustrative of how western society views women. That's not to say other societies are any better, but everytime I see Zoo, Nuts, FHM and the like in the newsagent, I wonder sometimes if we're the ones who have regressed.

It's not just women.
Most male action heroes (Arnold, Bruce, Sly, etc.), end up shirtless and sweaty at some point in their movies. Remember Arnold in Commando deciding when the lead was flying at the evil bosses compound that it was a good time to strip off his body armor?

Castiel wrote:

Frazzled wrote:What education do you need?

Frazzled's fatherly advice:
"If he gets uppity, kick him in the nuts. If that doesn't work, shoot him 14 times." Then kick him in the nuts.

What am I missing?

That.

Son, I like your work.

EDIT: whats funny is someone may actually think I'm joking. A variant of this is actual advice from both Frazzled and SWMBO. Inversely I've said the opposite to The Boy about such (as in, proper behavior else her dad may come for you).

@ Relapse - Arnie's sweaty pectorals don't really do it for me, but I see your angle. Western cinema is all equality with the removing of tops, so in keeping with the proper spirit of things...

How does he have hairy nipples?

Frazzled wrote:

Castiel wrote:

Frazzled wrote:What education do you need?

Frazzled's fatherly advice:
"If he gets uppity, kick him in the nuts. If that doesn't work, shoot him 14 times." Then kick him in the nuts.

What am I missing?

That.

Son, I like your work.

EDIT: whats funny is someone may actually think I'm joking. A variant of this is actual advice from both Frazzled and SWMBO. Inversely I've said the opposite to The Boy about such (as in, proper behavior else her dad may come for you).

Thanks!

Girlfriends' fathers pack shotguns. Annoying them/ doing something they disapprove of is a surefire way to wind up picking buckshot out of your rear for weeks! One must learn to respect the ladies.

Chowderhead wrote:Matty, two men from the Bible Belt don't represent all of America.

And we have a ton of sex and violence. But possibly less crazy tabloids, which could factor into it.

While Oklahoma might be part of the "Bible Belt", rarely does that stereotype apply to the average person here in Oklahoma.

Finally, some ammunition to use against those who claim that Sweden's high amount of reported rapes means the actual frequency of rapes are higher than everywhere else. Especially against those that blame it all on socialism or "those darned immigrants" who ride around in tanks, capturing our ary... native females and raping them in a cave!

No, really, that's how silly some of the debates regarding this issue in Sweden gets. Somehow, it's always the (muslim) immigrant's fault.

Anyhow, I reckon that since we now have reports about rape being relatively more common in both Sweden and the US, two countries whose social model differs widely, it isn't too far-fetched to assume that rape is, in fact, more common than the statistics would say in other countries too, and not just indicative of Sweden and the US being "rape centres".

Frazzled wrote:whats funny is someone may actually think I'm joking. A variant of this is actual advice from both Frazzled and SWMBO. Inversely I've said the opposite to The Boy about such (as in, proper behavior else her dad may come for you).

I like that advice though... kick 'em INNANUTS is usually a good idea... ruins their mood (hopefully) and stuns them (hopefully) so you can get away, or at least distracts them enough that you can get your gun out...

Melissia wrote:

Frazzled wrote:whats funny is someone may actually think I'm joking. A variant of this is actual advice from both Frazzled and SWMBO. Inversely I've said the opposite to The Boy about such (as in, proper behavior else her dad may come for you).

I like that advice though... kick 'em INNANUTS is usually a good idea... ruins their mood (hopefully) and stuns them (hopefully) so you can get away, or at least distracts them enough that you can get your gun out...

Or in Britain run the heck out of there like Usain Bolt!

EDIT: You also officially scare me! I will remember not to annoy you in future!

Castiel wrote:

EDIT: You also officially scare me! I will remember not to annoy you in future!

That's been my view for a while now...

purplefood wrote:

Castiel wrote:

EDIT: You also officially scare me! I will remember not to annoy you in future!

That's been my view for a while now...

I'm certainly taking her signature more seriously now!

Castiel wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Castiel wrote:

EDIT: You also officially scare me! I will remember not to annoy you in future!

That's been my view for a while now...

I'm certainly taking her signature more seriously now!

Well i know i'm immortal so that isn't so bad...

purplefood wrote:

Castiel wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Castiel wrote:

EDIT: You also officially scare me! I will remember not to annoy you in future!

That's been my view for a while now...

I'm certainly taking her signature more seriously now!

Well i know i'm immortal so that isn't so bad...

I'm the Angel of Thursday, so I can fly away!

halonachos wrote:What's a newsagent?

Hahahahaha

Flashman wrote:Although we've come a long way, I think there still many ways in which men's attitudes towards women are somewhat primitive.

Case in point, is there any practical reason why Black Widow doesn't zip her jump suit all the way up? No there isnt. It's purely a sex thing.



I'm no prude and don't object to the above image in any way shape or form, but it's illustrative of how western society views women. That's not to say other societies are any better, but everytime I see Zoo, Nuts, FHM and the like in the newsagent, I wonder sometimes if we're the ones who have regressed.

There are differing views on this. Some feminist commentators argue for the view you put forth, others argue for the view that 'overt' sexualisation of women gives women power. They're effectively using their assets to gain some form of power. Look at Katie Price (Jordan). Famous for getting her breasts out on page 3 and yet she has more money (which is usually equated with power in Western society) than most of us ever will.

An argument that has been made in response to statistics like this is that sections of the male population feel they have to assert their masculinity in these horrific ways because they feel that women have impinged upon their 'traditional' roles and spheres of life.

Basically it may not be a case of top down patriarchal power but 'bottom up' female power.

Castiel wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Castiel wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Castiel wrote:

EDIT: You also officially scare me! I will remember not to annoy you in future!

That's been my view for a while now...

I'm certainly taking her signature more seriously now!

Well i know i'm immortal so that isn't so bad...

I'm the Angel of Thursday, so I can fly away!

Don't you fly away to Friday?
You gotta get down on Friday...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Anyhow, I reckon that since we now have reports about rape being relatively more common in both Sweden and the US, two countries whose social model differs widely, it isn't too far-fetched to assume that rape is, in fact, more common than the statistics would say in other countries too, and not just indicative of Sweden and the US being "rape centres".

This. Anyone who studies sexual assault at all knows how underreported it is. This kind of study is pretty important. My first inclination is to think that there is not nearly as big a difference as Matty assumes between the US and UK on this one. Not to say it's impossible, of course. The US and our rates of violent crime are a bit different and distinct from many places in the Western world.

purplefood wrote:

Castiel wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Castiel wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Castiel wrote:

EDIT: You also officially scare me! I will remember not to annoy you in future!

That's been my view for a while now...

I'm certainly taking her signature more seriously now!

Well i know i'm immortal so that isn't so bad...

I'm the Angel of Thursday, so I can fly away!

Don't you fly away to Friday?
You gotta get down on Friday...

I'll kill you. Don't you know that one of the 10 commandments is "Thou shalt not mention Rebecca Black, or Justin Bieber, on Dakka at any time"?

Castiel wrote:

I'll kill you. Don't you know that one of the 10 commandments is "Thou shalt not mention Rebecca Black, or Justin Bieber, on Dakka at any time"?

I skimmed it...
Fairly sure i have posted that song a few times actually...
It's surprisingly catchy...
I almost miss it.

Can you guys stop spamming this thread, please? Take it to a chat room.

Sorry, may have got carried away!

Well, having moved from the UK to the US, I would say that sexual discrimination is certainly far more prevalent here, in the area I have moved to (central PA) and gender expectations are back in the 70s by comparison here compared to cosmopolitan Bristol, UK. I have certainly seen far more arse slapping and sexual language towards barstaff and even in the store I work in the attractive girls get touched or openly commented on in a way that raises my brow. I've asked a couple of them on occasion and they have just shrugged and said 'well, that's guys being guys'. It feels like I stepped into the 70s some times.

So, yeah, there is a surprising culture gap, once you get out and away from the cities.


I also read that they call child abuse rape in that report, so it's the number of both combined. That figure is frighteningly high I can tell you, back in the UK. The amount of abuse of children is a hidden and very unpleasant number.

purplefood wrote:How does he have hairy nipples?

YOu so need to sig that!


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Castiel wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Castiel wrote:

Frazzled wrote:What education do you need?

Frazzled's fatherly advice:
"If he gets uppity, kick him in the nuts. If that doesn't work, shoot him 14 times." Then kick him in the nuts.

What am I missing?

That.

Son, I like your work.

EDIT: whats funny is someone may actually think I'm joking. A variant of this is actual advice from both Frazzled and SWMBO. Inversely I've said the opposite to The Boy about such (as in, proper behavior else her dad may come for you).

Thanks!

Girlfriends' fathers pack shotguns. Annoying them/ doing something they disapprove of is a surefire way to wind up picking buckshot out of your rear for weeks! One must learn to respect the ladies.

Ancient Budha say: beware of father who has a shotgun andf nearby access to bayous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Castiel wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Frazzled wrote:whats funny is someone may actually think I'm joking. A variant of this is actual advice from both Frazzled and SWMBO. Inversely I've said the opposite to The Boy about such (as in, proper behavior else her dad may come for you).

I like that advice though... kick 'em INNANUTS is usually a good idea... ruins their mood (hopefully) and stuns them (hopefully) so you can get away, or at least distracts them enough that you can get your gun out...

Or in Britain run the heck out of there like Usain Bolt!

EDIT: You also officially scare me! I will remember not to annoy you in future!

All Texas women are like that. To know them is to love them and despair.

I'm a little alarmed but I cant call it surprised, I'm too cynical. My wife is the most delicate desert flower, but if threatened I have no doubt that she wouldn't stop shooting until her carry gun was empty, she has the brown people anger

You know. Its kinda funny how people talk about female rape but don't remember male rape. Where a guy is raped by a girl. Its possible and it happens alot. What guy is going to admit to getting raped by a girl?

It is not sexist. Its kinda true. Society views women as lower than men. Hollywood, the media, and culture has painted them like that.

Now I know a helk ton of girls that I know that would beat me up if I had the mindset of a rapist, instead i have the mindset of the guy that sits in the corner and broods most of the time.

Now I usually stay away from these threads period. But apart from that this thread seems on course. Just a little fuel for the fire.

To remind all of thee of the dangers of female sexual predators who attack men. Hell there was a mass murdering woman that had sex with men and killed them with a knife to the neck.

I may sound a bit sexist. But in all honesty I am not. Women can do what men can do. They can be serial killers and they can by the worst humans on the planet.

Just like guys. they can rape people. They can kill people. We are all human. We all can kill each other.

Helk there have been people that I fought in martial arts and they were girls. I was kinda nervous because I didn't want to hurt the girl but. She kicked me in the face, and i lost 10 seconds later. Hell she even helped fix my bruise then went back to the tournament explaining to a bunch of guys how I lost faster than I had thought i would lose.

If people weren't so arrogant and following willynilly what the media has made us believed that women are desert flowers that must be taken care of. They ain't always true as my life has kinda told me.

Just my thoughts.

Study numbers like the one in the OP have been coming out for years, and ultimately they're bs. Rape is a serious problem and we need all kinds of improvement, but that doesn't mean the issue is anywhere near the 20% reported in the story.

I couldn't get the CDC report to open, but when I've looked into this before, I've found they get to that number by defining rape as a whole lot of things that don't mean 'rape' to 99% of the population. The CDC survey likely includes stuff like unwelcome, overly suggestive flirting, which isn't cool but really, really isn't rape.

Again, I'm not saying it isn't problem, I'm just saying that th situation isn't really that 20% of women are forced into sex without their consent.

Relapse wrote:It's not just women.
Most male action heroes (Arnold, Bruce, Sly, etc.), end up shirtless and sweaty at some point in their movies. Remember Arnold in Commando deciding when the lead was flying at the evil bosses compound that it was a good time to strip off his body armor?

Sort of. Thing is, though, while they might contrive reasons for Arnold to take his shirt off, Commando is first and foremost, like almost every action movie, made for men, by men. When Arnie shows some skin, it's to show how goddamn big he is, and make us blokes believe in the backs of our caveman brains that a guy that big could totally kill hundreds of bad guys.

On the other hand, the woman is a femme fatale because guys find that hot.

sebster wrote:Study numbers like the one in the OP have been coming out for years, and ultimately they're bs. Rape is a serious problem and we need all kinds of improvement, but that doesn't mean the issue is anywhere near the 20% reported in the story.

It's also attempted as well. Iwonder how vague their definition of attempted rape was?

Castiel wrote:A gun to the head makes people more compliant and less likely to fight back would seem the obvious reason.

Frazzled wrote:I think the statistic is utterly bogus. HOWEVER, as a husband and father, one is too many. How do we reduce it ?(ok exterminating rapists would be a start but for some reason people get their panties in a wad about that).

sebster wrote:Again, I'm not saying it isn't problem, I'm just saying that th situation isn't really that 20% of women are forced into sex without their consent.

Don't assume that rapists are all knife wielding manics grabbing women off the street. Rape covers any instance where sex is non-consensual. How many women are raped by their boyfriends and won't take no for an answer? How many women have had or are in an abusive relationship? Cases of rape occurring between partners are very hard to prosecute, which is why figures in surveys don't match up at all with actual investigations and prosecutions. Many are not reported let alone taken further by the authorities. I think you may be surprised how many women, while they haven't been physically beaten and been threatened with knives etc, have had sex against their will as a result of intimidation, coercion, or have been grossly taken advantage of, say if they have been drinking or are unwell? Stranger-rape is quite uncommon.

I don't think that looking to blame 'lads mags' and pornography is particularly useful. I recall surveys finding that the increase in one is not paired with the other, the same is similar of violent computer games and the like causing more violence. While they may objectify women, there are many sources for this and women are bombarded by it through their own magazines and advertising as much as men are in theirs. If there is a casual issue, it's with a wider trend in society rather than a certain share of the magazine market.

No really, the problem is that rapists are scum. We're all capable of making free choices. They were scum in 1900 and they are scum today. The culture is different and I have no doubt that there is a shift in reporting and more openness about sexual experiences, positive and negative, but I still think we only see the tip of the iceberg as still for many, to even mention that they have suffered rape is too much. Even less spoken about is women raping men, there are people who still claim if a man has an erection it's a sign that he was willing.

Rape is something I have no tolerance for at all. I rank it alongside murder. At least killing a person can be accidental or the result of extreme provocation, but rape is a deliberate act by people who make a choice. I can't see that you can accidentally rape someone. For once I agree with Frazzled, they deserve to hang IMO.

Yikes! It's the sexualization of culture, I think. I'm not sure, but it seems worse in the US than other places

Asherian Command wrote:You know. Its kinda funny how people talk about female rape but don't remember male rape. Where a guy is raped by a girl. Its possible and it happens alot. What guy is going to admit to getting raped by a girl?

It is not sexist. Its kinda true. Society views women as lower than men. Hollywood, the media, and culture has painted them like that.

Women can rape men but it's both hard to prove in court and hard to get men to come forwards about it.
It would be fairly emasculating for them which i can understand.
The other problem is that for a woman to rape a man the man needs to get a stiffy which implies consent.
AFAIK recently there have been more convictions due to women using drugs or... well they stick a steel rod down your soldier...
Nice thought that...

purplefood wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:You know. Its kinda funny how people talk about female rape but don't remember male rape. Where a guy is raped by a girl. Its possible and it happens alot. What guy is going to admit to getting raped by a girl?

It is not sexist. Its kinda true. Society views women as lower than men. Hollywood, the media, and culture has painted them like that.

Women can rape men but it's both hard to prove in court and hard to get men to come forwards about it.
It would be fairly emasculating for them which i can understand.
The other problem is that for a woman to rape a man the man needs to get a stiffy which implies consent.
AFAIK recently there have been more convictions due to women using drugs or... well they stick a steel rod down your soldier...
Nice thought that...

Ow. Wasn't even aware that female on male rape occurred in any significant volume. I wonder how you can tell if a woman's going to rape you. What would be the signs of that? Usually men act menacingly or threatening in some way, but I can't see a woman doing the same thing..

Samus_aran115 wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:You know. Its kinda funny how people talk about female rape but don't remember male rape. Where a guy is raped by a girl. Its possible and it happens alot. What guy is going to admit to getting raped by a girl?

It is not sexist. Its kinda true. Society views women as lower than men. Hollywood, the media, and culture has painted them like that.

Women can rape men but it's both hard to prove in court and hard to get men to come forwards about it.
It would be fairly emasculating for them which i can understand.
The other problem is that for a woman to rape a man the man needs to get a stiffy which implies consent.
AFAIK recently there have been more convictions due to women using drugs or... well they stick a steel rod down your soldier...
Nice thought that...

Ow. Wasn't even aware that female on male rape occurred in any significant volume. I wonder how you can tell if a woman's going to rape you. What would be the signs of that? Usually men act menacingly or threatening in some way, but I can't see a woman doing the same thing..

Hell if i know.
If i ever get raped by a lady i'll be sure to tell you...
I suppose there are some signs but frankly aside from 'she just spiked my drink' i wouldn't know where to start...

Women can use implements on you.

Melissia wrote:It's also attempted as well. Iwonder how vague their definition of attempted rape was?

When I looked stuff up on this a long time ago, on the old claim of "20% of girls in college are raped", the original study used a definition of rape that was so broad it was ridiculous. It included all manner of things that didn't include physical touching,

Howard A Treesong wrote:Don't assume that rapists are all knife wielding manics grabbing women off the street. Rape covers any instance where sex is non-consensual. How many women are raped by their boyfriends and won't take no for an answer? How many women have had or are in an abusive relationship? Cases of rape occurring between partners are very hard to prosecute, which is why figures in surveys don't match up at all with actual investigations and prosecutions. Many are not reported let alone taken further by the authorities. I think you may be surprised how many women, while they haven't been physically beaten and been threatened with knives etc, have had sex against their will as a result of intimidation, coercion, or have been grossly taken advantage of, say if they have been drinking or are unwell? Stranger-rape is quite uncommon.

Well, yeah, and I think everyone here has sat through various sex ed classes in highschool and knows all that. The reason I don't believe the 20% number isn't that I don't understand what most rapes are caused by, it's that I've seen how these studies are performed, and I've seen how broadly they define rape.

They regularly include instances where no physical contact is made. They also frequently use definitions of rape where the issue of consent is unclear, and regretted by the woman afterwards. I'm not saying these aren't serious matters, but the use of the word is extremely dubious.

I don't think that looking to blame 'lads mags' and pornography is particularly useful. I recall surveys finding that the increase in one is not paired with the other, the same is similar of violent computer games and the like causing more violence. While they may objectify women, there are many sources for this and women are bombarded by it through their own magazines and advertising as much as men are in theirs. If there is a casual issue, it's with a wider trend in society rather than a certain share of the magazine market.

The magazines themselves are only symptom of the greater problem.

No really, the problem is that rapists are scum. We're all capable of making free choices. They were scum in 1900 and they are scum today. The culture is different and I have no doubt that there is a shift in reporting and more openness about sexual experiences, positive and negative, but I still think we only see the tip of the iceberg as still for many, to even mention that they have suffered rape is too much. Even less spoken about is women raping men, there are people who still claim if a man has an erection it's a sign that he was willing.

Ultimately, that just isn't a very useful way of looking at the issue. You are right that those people have made a personal choice to do something horrible and should be punished to the full extent, but that doesn't prevent us from also looking at the society we live in, and examining how it impacts on how we see women, and how that might lead to rape.


EDIT - and finally the PDF is working for me. It's an interesting read, and just to pick out the part on rape, they actually do give a very specific, sensible breakdown on what they consider rape;
"any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent"

Within that, you see the following breakdown of what women have reported;

Completed forced penetration - 12.3% of women or 14,617,000 in the US
Attempted forced penetration - 5.2% of women or 6,199,000 in the US
Completed alcohol/drug facilitated penetration - 8.0% or 9,524,000 in the US


I take it all back, their definition is sound and their conclusions are seriously frightening.

sebster wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:Don't assume that rapists are all knife wielding manics grabbing women off the street. Rape covers any instance where sex is non-consensual. How many women are raped by their boyfriends and won't take no for an answer? How many women have had or are in an abusive relationship? Cases of rape occurring between partners are very hard to prosecute, which is why figures in surveys don't match up at all with actual investigations and prosecutions. Many are not reported let alone taken further by the authorities. I think you may be surprised how many women, while they haven't been physically beaten and been threatened with knives etc, have had sex against their will as a result of intimidation, coercion, or have been grossly taken advantage of, say if they have been drinking or are unwell? Stranger-rape is quite uncommon.

Well, yeah, and I think everyone here has sat through various sex ed classes in highschool and knows all that. The reason I don't believe the 20% number isn't that I don't understand what most rapes are caused by, it's that I've seen how these studies are performed, and I've seen how broadly they define rape.

Really? I don't know what your sex ed classes covered, but sexual offences and their reporting bias wasn't really part of mine. Aside from "no means no", it was largely about the practicalities of sex and contraception. From what I gather from the US, sex education is very poor in some areas basically amounting to telling kids not to do it until they are married.

sebster wrote:Within that, you see the following breakdown of what women have reported;

Completed forced penetration - 12.3% of women or 14,617,000 in the US
Attempted forced penetration - 5.2% of women or 6,199,000 in the US
Completed alcohol/drug facilitated penetration - 8.0% or 9,524,000 in the US


I take it all back, their definition is sound and their conclusions are seriously frightening.

Suddenly getting my own handgun and concealed permit is now a much higher priority for me...

Turns out that male-male rape may be more prevalent than male-female.

Prison rape is highly unaccounted for in these situations.

Human Rights WatchNo Escape: Male Rape In U.S. Prisons. Part VII. Anomaly or Epidemic: The Incidence of Prisoner-on-Prisoner Rape.; estimates that 100,000–140,000 violent male-male rapes occur in U.S. prisons annually; compare with FBI statistics that estimated 90,000 violent male-female rapes occur annually.

On the upside that means there's a strong chance that someone thrown into prison for rape or attempted rape, will be raped.

Also in the UK I think they said that they only ask about people being raped from 16 and older while in the US we looked at everybody, with 1/3 of the responses being under 16.

Howard A Treesong wrote:Really? I don't know what your sex ed classes covered, but sexual offences and their reporting bias wasn't really part of mine. Aside from "no means no", it was largely about the practicalities of sex and contraception. From what I gather from the US, sex education is very poor in some areas basically amounting to telling kids not to do it until they are married.

Fair enough. We did a whole thing on consent, and ensuring you got consent, and the frame of mind a person has to be in to give consent, and the kinds of pressures that can be applied to agree to sex that are completely not okay.

Oh, it seems like this a pretty good place to leave this...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

halonachos wrote:On the upside that means there's a strong chance that someone thrown into prison for rape or attempted rape, will be raped.

That is absolutely not an upside in any way, and this thing where people talk about rape as part of the punishment for a crime is absolute fething bs.

sebster wrote:

Relapse wrote:It's not just women.
Most male action heroes (Arnold, Bruce, Sly, etc.), end up shirtless and sweaty at some point in their movies. Remember Arnold in Commando deciding when the lead was flying at the evil bosses compound that it was a good time to strip off his body armor?

Sort of. Thing is, though, while they might contrive reasons for Arnold to take his shirt off, Commando is first and foremost, like almost every action movie, made for men, by men. When Arnie shows some skin, it's to show how goddamn big he is, and make us blokes believe in the backs of our caveman brains that a guy that big could totally kill hundreds of bad guys.

On the other hand, the woman is a femme fatale because guys find that hot.

Clearly you have not taken a girlfriend to these movies. All I can say is that women enjoy seeing a stud with his shirt off as much as guys like seeing a hottie half unzipped if the women I've taken to these shows is any indication.

Stuff like this is why I can't wrap my head around why so many females I know 'don't like guns'. I mean, there is literally a magic wand that you can wave, that cancels out all the physical advantages the average man has over the average woman, and you don't like it cause it's loud?

Bromsy wrote:Stuff like this is why I can't wrap my head around why so many females I know 'don't like guns'. I mean, there is literally a magic wand that you can wave, that cancels out all the physical advantages the average man has over the average woman, and you don't like it cause it's loud?

Because most rapes don't involve overt physical force from strangers.

sebster wrote:

Bromsy wrote:Stuff like this is why I can't wrap my head around why so many females I know 'don't like guns'. I mean, there is literally a magic wand that you can wave, that cancels out all the physical advantages the average man has over the average woman, and you don't like it cause it's loud?

Because most rapes don't involve overt physical force from strangers.

Right. Maybe you don't think to take your gun with you when you're
with friends or someone you know.

Enough of them do. Throw in any other violent crime, too. And nope, I take my knife.

For all the men on dakka and this thread who have a hard time beleiving the stats, women rarely discuss this subject with men.

Women do discuss this subject quite a lot between ourselves. I know that the statistic of 1 in 5 raped, or 1 in 4 sexually assaulted is pretty damned accurate.

It comes up in conversation, I have had a lot of friends, and in my experience the math is the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Most rapes and sexual assaults are also done by family members, or partners. Rarely are they committed by the total stranger.

Bromsy wrote:Enough of them do. Throw in any other violent crime, too. And nope, I take my knife.

From the report.

For both women and men, the type of perpetrator varied by the form of sexual violence experienced. The majority of female victims of sexual coercion and unwanted sexual contact reported known perpetrators. Three-quarters of female victims (75.4%) of sexual coercion reported perpetration by an intimate partner, and nearly 1 in 2 female victims (45.9%) of unwanted sexual contact reported perpetration by an acquaintance. Strangers were the most commonly reported perpetrators of non-contact unwanted sexual experiences against women, reported by 1 in 2 female victims (50.5%) (Table 2.5)

The gun might help after the fact, but unexpected physical
coercion and violence might trump it.

Looking around internationally, there is little evidence that guns help prevent crime. But let's not get into that topic in this thread.

Considering how many women are sexually assaulted and/or raped.

I am rather curious to know what % of the men in the population are rapists. That would be an enlightening read.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
any ideas guys?

If we accept that 20% of women have been raped, and half of them were raped by close acquaintances or relatives, we must reckon that 5 to 10% of men are rapists, or that a smaller number of rapist men are successfully carrying out rapes of multiple closely acquainted victims.

It's probably impossible to find out for sure, though.

Kilkrazy wrote:If we accept that 20% of women have been raped, and half of them were raped by close acquaintances or relatives, we must reckon that 5 to 10% of men are rapists, or that a smaller number of rapist men are successfully carrying out rapes of multiple closely acquainted victims.

It's probably impossible to find out for sure, though.

Or you figure that boyfriends and husbands will use pressure to force their partners into sex, and that they might be entirely unaware of what they've put their partner through.

That is one of the arguments around the issue.

There are women from the 60s who say that in those days they sometimes consented reluctantly to sex in circumstances where actually they would have preferred not to have sex, because it was less trouble than having a row about it. They did not consider this rape as such, merely an episode of bad sex.

These same women say that modern women do consider such circumstances to be rape, and will complain about it in surveys, which helps explain the higher reporting of rape.

Remembering that in the UK until 1994, a wife was deemed to have consented in perpetuity to sex with her husband.

Relapse wrote:Clearly you have not taken a girlfriend to these movies. All I can say is that women enjoy seeing a stud with his shirt off as much as guys like seeing a hottie half unzipped if the women I've taken to these shows is any indication.

The point is not that women won't find these things attractive, the point is that the thing was put in the movie for an entirely different reason. Just like you can sit there watching some gak romantic comedy with Scarlett Johansen in it and thinking she's really hot, but that doesn't mean her part is primarily as a sex object.

There is no issue with someone being attractive in a movie. The issue is that it was noted, quite rightly, that women were mostly passive in these movies, just there to be an object of affection and need capturing. Unfortunately, the response to that was to make them into another highly sexualised cliche, the femme fatale.

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:Considering how many women are sexually assaulted and/or raped.

I am rather curious to know what % of the men in the population are rapists. That would be an enlightening read.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
any ideas guys?

Well, I'm not one. Hope this helps.

Don't assume that rapists are all knife wielding manics grabbing women off the street. Rape covers any instance where sex is non-consensual. How many women are raped by their boyfriends and won't take no for an answer? How many women have had or are in an abusive relationship? Cases of rape occurring between partners are very hard to prosecute, which is why figures in surveys don't match up at all with actual investigations and prosecutions. Many are not reported let alone taken further by the authorities. I think you may be surprised how many women, while they haven't been physically beaten and been threatened with knives etc, have had sex against their will as a result of intimidation, coercion, or have been grossly taken advantage of, say if they have been drinking or are unwell? Stranger-rape is quite uncommon.

Well my perfect fatherly advice is compeltely applicable, and was in fact meant mostly for BFs. To restate:
Kick 'em in the nuts. If needed blast away, then "kick 'em in the nuts. Alternatively if really mad call mom, tell her to get Daddy Frazzled, and bring the pliers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

sebster wrote:Within that, you see the following breakdown of what women have reported;

Completed forced penetration - 12.3% of women or 14,617,000 in the US
Attempted forced penetration - 5.2% of women or 6,199,000 in the US
Completed alcohol/drug facilitated penetration - 8.0% or 9,524,000 in the US


I take it all back, their definition is sound and their conclusions are seriously frightening.

Suddenly getting my own handgun and concealed permit is now a much higher priority for me...

Hey I've offered to give advice on that Texas Belle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bromsy wrote:Stuff like this is why I can't wrap my head around why so many females I know 'don't like guns'. I mean, there is literally a magic wand that you can wave, that cancels out all the physical advantages the average man has over the average woman, and you don't like it cause it's loud?

I blame the parents (seriously). I've brought several reluctant femmes out to the range where their SOs or other. Its particularly fun when they go from scared scared guns evil to shooting a .44 Magnum in the space of 2 hours.
The Boy started shooting at 5. The Wife prompted me actually and told me this was Dad's duty, so I started GC at 8. Now that I think about it, I have two weeks off. Come on kid, time to go blow some stuff up!

I do need to reinforce the hand to hand escape techniques though.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

malfred wrote:

sebster wrote:

Bromsy wrote:Stuff like this is why I can't wrap my head around why so many females I know 'don't like guns'. I mean, there is literally a magic wand that you can wave, that cancels out all the physical advantages the average man has over the average woman, and you don't like it cause it's loud?

Because most rapes don't involve overt physical force from strangers.

Right. Maybe you don't think to take your gun with you when you're
with friends or someone you know.

Why not?

Howard A Treesong wrote:From what I gather from the US, sex education is very poor in some areas basically amounting to telling kids not to do it until they are married.

Yes, most of the country has only recently thrown off the abstinence-only education crap that was foisted on us by Bush Jr.

Albatross wrote:
Well, I'm not one. Hope this helps.

Me either.. I dont think you should be making jokes in this thread either because rape is no laughing matter.

Well, unless your raping a clown.

sebster wrote:

Relapse wrote:Clearly you have not taken a girlfriend to these movies. All I can say is that women enjoy seeing a stud with his shirt off as much as guys like seeing a hottie half unzipped if the women I've taken to these shows is any indication.

The point is not that women won't find these things attractive, the point is that the thing was put in the movie for an entirely different reason. Just like you can sit there watching some gak romantic comedy with Scarlett Johansen in it and thinking she's really hot, but that doesn't mean her part is primarily as a sex object.

There is no issue with someone being attractive in a movie. The issue is that it was noted, quite rightly, that women were mostly passive in these movies, just there to be an object of affection and need capturing. Unfortunately, the response to that was to make them into another highly sexualised cliche, the femme fatale.

Right on!

It's not how they look, it's how they act. If she's a fully realized character who acts like an actual person and the character wants to unzip a bit, then it's totally fine.

Saying that women in movies SHOULD dress in a less sexy manner is exactly as bad as saying they should dress in a more sexy manner. It denies agency. They can wear what they want for the reasons they want. If it seems artificial and unnatural for that character, then the term is "bad filmmaking"

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:For all the men on dakka and this thread who have a hard time beleiving the stats, women rarely discuss this subject with men.

Women do discuss this subject quite a lot between ourselves. I know that the statistic of 1 in 5 raped, or 1 in 4 sexually assaulted is pretty damned accurate.

It comes up in conversation, I have had a lot of friends, and in my experience the math is the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Most rapes and sexual assaults are also done by family members, or partners. Rarely are they committed by the total stranger.

So what do we do? How do we address this?

Asherian Command wrote:You know. Its kinda funny how people talk about female rape but don't remember male rape. Where a guy is raped by a girl. Its possible and it happens alot. What guy is going to admit to getting raped by a girl?

Surely you jest?!

I mean, I once was drinking in a pub in Sheffield when me and 6 of the lads were detailed to spend a week at a big scout convention showing the kids unarmed combat and gak, it was a great detail, known as a "jolly" because it's just to help with recruiting and you spend time getting leathered, doing very little work and going out on the piss in the UK.

Anyways, I was getting "shag me eyes" of this blonde bird, so I sauntered over and asked her how she was doing and if she wanted a drink with me. 5 minutes later she leaned over and said "tell me what you want to do to me then..." and I spat my drink out. Needless to say 20 minutes later we were back at the hotel and I have to say, it was the first time in my life ive been somewhat uncomfortable with a woman who shrieked filth of epic proportions, clawed my back to ribbons, and refused to let me sleep at all. By about the eighth time I was holding back tears of frustration and rage, and sobbing as she grinded against me like a grizzly bear trying vainly to scratch its back on a tree.

She left the next day and I had bleary eyes, a severe limp and chinese burn running the full length of...

Well anyways.. I see how a man can be pressured by a woman, or even drugged or coerced by a woman, but, considering you need to get the big fella to stand to attention, surely it is physically impossible for a woman to "rape" a man if we are talking about normal sex. I mean, unless you mean "tie you up and rape you with a bottle of shower gel" at which point I stand corrected.

mattyrm wrote:I see how a man can be pressured by a woman, or even drugged or coerced by a woman, but, considering you need to get the big fella to stand to attention, surely it is physically impossible for a woman to "rape" a man if we are talking about normal sex.

Wait, drugged and coerced doesn't count as rape to you? Uhhhhhhh....

Rape does not imply force. It just implies sex without consent. Men can absolutely 100% be raped. Also, the body responds independently of the mind. Physical arousal still happens in a lot of rapes.

mattyrm wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:You know. Its kinda funny how people talk about female rape but don't remember male rape. Where a guy is raped by a girl. Its possible and it happens alot. What guy is going to admit to getting raped by a girl?

Surely you jest?!

I mean, I once was drinking in a pub in Sheffield when me and 6 of the lads were detailed to spend a week at a big scout convention showing the kids unarmed combat and gak, it was a great detail, known as a "jolly" because it's just to help with recruiting and you spend time getting leathered, doing very little work and going out on the piss in the UK.

Anyways, I was getting "shag me eyes" of this blonde bird, so I sauntered over and asked her how she was doing and if she wanted a drink with me. 5 minutes later she leaned over and said "tell me what you want to do to me then..." and I spat my drink out. Needless to say 20 minutes later we were back at the hotel and I have to say, it was the first time in my life ive been somewhat uncomfortable with a woman who shrieked filth of epic proportions, clawed my back to ribbons, and refused to let me sleep at all. By about the eighth time I was holding back tears of frustration and rage, and sobbing as she grinded against me like a grizzly bear trying vainly to scratch its back on a tree.

She left the next day and I had bleary eyes, a severe limp and chinese burn running the full length of...

Well anyways.. I see how a man can be pressured by a woman, or even drugged or coerced by a woman, but, considering you need to get the big fella to stand to attention, surely it is physically impossible for a woman to "rape" a man if we are talking about normal sex. I mean, unless you mean "tie you up and rape you with a bottle of shower gel" at which point I stand corrected.

O.o

You know there are ways on making men "stand to" even if they don't want to.

Rented Tritium wrote:

mattyrm wrote:I see how a man can be pressured by a woman, or even drugged or coerced by a woman, but, considering you need to get the big fella to stand to attention, surely it is physically impossible for a woman to "rape" a man if we are talking about normal sex.

Wait, drugged and coerced doesn't count as rape to you? Uhhhhhhh....

Rape does not imply force. It just implies sex without consent. Men can absolutely 100% be raped. Also, the body responds independently of the mind. Physical arousal still happens in a lot of rapes.

Well, alright then Ill try a different approach. Does it actually bother a bloke?

I mean, If I was walking home from the pub and I got shot with a tranq dart, woke up tied to a table an hour later whereupon a big fat ginger bird with teeth like a witch-doctors necklace showed me a bizarre selection of pornography ala "A clockwork Orange" and then bounced on me till she got her rocks off before fleeing the scene, I think Id probably just go home for a long shower and then go back to the pub the next day..

"you lot aren't going to fething believe what some honking bird made me do yesterday!"

mattyrm wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:

mattyrm wrote:I see how a man can be pressured by a woman, or even drugged or coerced by a woman, but, considering you need to get the big fella to stand to attention, surely it is physically impossible for a woman to "rape" a man if we are talking about normal sex.

Wait, drugged and coerced doesn't count as rape to you? Uhhhhhhh....

Rape does not imply force. It just implies sex without consent. Men can absolutely 100% be raped. Also, the body responds independently of the mind. Physical arousal still happens in a lot of rapes.

Well, alright then Ill try a different approach. Does it actually bother a bloke?

I mean, If I was walking home from the pub and I got shot with a tranq dart, woke up tied to a table an hour later whereupon a big fat ginger bird with teeth like a witch-doctors necklace showed me a bizarre selection of pornography ala "A clockwork Orange" and then bounced on me till she got her rocks off before fleeing the scene, I think Id probably just go home for a long shower and then go back to the pub the next day..

"you lot aren't going to fething believe what some honking bird made me do yesterday!"

I'd be ticked off bcause I was late for supper. Ancient Budha say, do not get between the Nazgul and his prey, or Frazzled and his plate, but I repeat myself.

Kilkrazy wrote:That is one of the arguments around the issue.

There are women from the 60s who say that in those days they sometimes consented reluctantly to sex in circumstances where actually they would have preferred not to have sex, because it was less trouble than having a row about it. They did not consider this rape as such, merely an episode of bad sex.

These same women say that modern women do consider such circumstances to be rape, and will complain about it in surveys, which helps explain the higher reporting of rape.

Remembering that in the UK until 1994, a wife was deemed to have consented in perpetuity to sex with her husband.

1991, not 1994. R v R, House of Lords. Most previous cases had found other ways to prosecute though that didn't require a clarification of that point of law.

mattyrm wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:

mattyrm wrote:I see how a man can be pressured by a woman, or even drugged or coerced by a woman, but, considering you need to get the big fella to stand to attention, surely it is physically impossible for a woman to "rape" a man if we are talking about normal sex.

Wait, drugged and coerced doesn't count as rape to you? Uhhhhhhh....

Rape does not imply force. It just implies sex without consent. Men can absolutely 100% be raped. Also, the body responds independently of the mind. Physical arousal still happens in a lot of rapes.

Well, alright then Ill try a different approach. Does it actually bother a bloke?

I mean, If I was walking home from the pub and I got shot with a tranq dart, woke up tied to a table an hour later whereupon a big fat ginger bird with teeth like a witch-doctors necklace showed me a bizarre selection of pornography ala "A clockwork Orange" and then bounced on me till she got her rocks off before fleeing the scene, I think Id probably just go home for a long shower and then go back to the pub the next day..

"you lot aren't going to fething believe what some honking bird made me do yesterday!"

Are you serious or trolling?

mattyrm wrote: Well, alright then Ill try a different approach. Does it actually bother a bloke?

I mean, If I was walking home from the pub and I got shot with a tranq dart, woke up tied to a table an hour later whereupon a big fat ginger bird with teeth like a witch-doctors necklace showed me a bizarre selection of pornography ala "A clockwork Orange" and then bounced on me till she got her rocks off before fleeing the scene, I think Id probably just go home for a long shower and then go back to the pub the next day..

"you lot aren't going to fething believe what some honking bird made me do yesterday!"

Well, trauma affects everybody in a different way. There are veterans of horrible wars that sleep like a baby at night, and victims of muggings that spent months in counseling due to nightmares and PTSD.

Mental pain is much like physical pain: it's subjective and highly personal.

I mean, it's the same with women. I've known women that were the victims of sexual coercion that sort of shrugged it off with a, "yeah that sucked." For others, it can ruin their lives.

It's not completely dissimilar from any other crime. How many of us have gotten physically attacked, but forgot about it soon after. How many of us have gotten physically attacked, and have never forgotten it?

mattyrm wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:

mattyrm wrote:I see how a man can be pressured by a woman, or even drugged or coerced by a woman, but, considering you need to get the big fella to stand to attention, surely it is physically impossible for a woman to "rape" a man if we are talking about normal sex.

Wait, drugged and coerced doesn't count as rape to you? Uhhhhhhh....

Rape does not imply force. It just implies sex without consent. Men can absolutely 100% be raped. Also, the body responds independently of the mind. Physical arousal still happens in a lot of rapes.

Well, alright then Ill try a different approach. Does it actually bother a bloke?

I mean, If I was walking home from the pub and I got shot with a tranq dart, woke up tied to a table an hour later whereupon a big fat ginger bird with teeth like a witch-doctors necklace showed me a bizarre selection of pornography ala "A clockwork Orange" and then bounced on me till she got her rocks off before fleeing the scene, I think Id probably just go home for a long shower and then go back to the pub the next day..

"you lot aren't going to fething believe what some honking bird made me do yesterday!"

This is basically the old "you can't rape sluts" argument but for men.

Rented Tritium wrote: Are you serious or trolling?

I'm guessing he's being serious, but only because he's speaking from his own view point.

If a person is willing to have sex with any woman... well... you can't rape the willing.

There was a point in my life I used refered to it as the community college rule: I'll take anybody!

Rented Tritium wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:

mattyrm wrote:I see how a man can be pressured by a woman, or even drugged or coerced by a woman, but, considering you need to get the big fella to stand to attention, surely it is physically impossible for a woman to "rape" a man if we are talking about normal sex.

Wait, drugged and coerced doesn't count as rape to you? Uhhhhhhh....

Rape does not imply force. It just implies sex without consent. Men can absolutely 100% be raped. Also, the body responds independently of the mind. Physical arousal still happens in a lot of rapes.

Well, alright then Ill try a different approach. Does it actually bother a bloke?

I mean, If I was walking home from the pub and I got shot with a tranq dart, woke up tied to a table an hour later whereupon a big fat ginger bird with teeth like a witch-doctors necklace showed me a bizarre selection of pornography ala "A clockwork Orange" and then bounced on me till she got her rocks off before fleeing the scene, I think Id probably just go home for a long shower and then go back to the pub the next day..

"you lot aren't going to fething believe what some honking bird made me do yesterday!"

Are you serious or trolling?

He like I, are just saying you're full of gak.
I'm sure it occurs, but WTF ever.

Frazzled wrote:
He like I, are jjust saying you're full of gak.

Saying men can't be raped is like saying that slutty women can't be raped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree though that women raping men is socially distinct in most cases and has different causes and different solutions.

So in many ways it's a different conversation.

Rented Tritium wrote:
Are you serious or trolling?

Well the entire thing is intended humorously, hence the way it was written "sobbed while she rode me like an angry grizzly bear scratching its back against a tree!?"" I mean... come on..

But I am actually serious yeah, why would it be trolling? That's how I would deal with it If it happened to me, I genuinely wouldn't give a flying gak.

I'm not saying it wouldn't disturb some people, but no it wouldn't bother me at all. I actually have a tale of sexual abuse that I found most amusing, and Albatross has heard it, but, well, this isn't the place for it.

I'm making light of the situation for a chuckle, but if you insist on acting like my mother in law I will spell it out for you.

Ok, it is theoretically possible for a man to be raped by a woman, but because it would require an incredibly bizzare chain of events, and is so ridiculously rare in comparison it isn't really worth talking about, because this thread is primarily about women being raped.

Rented Tritium wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
He like I, are jjust saying you're full of gak.

Saying men can't be raped is like saying that slutty women can't be raped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree though that women raping men is socially distinct in most cases and has different causes and different solutions.

So in many ways it's a different conversation.

So your comparing all men to sluts now?

Rented Tritium wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
He like I, are jjust saying you're full of gak.

Saying men can't be raped is like saying that slutty women can't be raped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree though that women raping men is socially distinct in most cases and has different causes and different solutions.

So in many ways it's a different conversation.

AS noted, I'm sure it might theoretically occur. But its a nonissue compared to the larger picture.

Castiel wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
He like I, are jjust saying you're full of gak.

Saying men can't be raped is like saying that slutty women can't be raped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree though that women raping men is socially distinct in most cases and has different causes and different solutions.

So in many ways it's a different conversation.

So your comparing all men to sluts now?

What? How did you get that from my post?

No, the logic that men can't be raped because they won't mind is the same logic that makes people think that they can do anything because a girl is slutty.

I'm saying that the idea "men can't be raped" and "sluts can't be raped" share the same logical construct.

Can you take this side distraction somwehere else?

Rented Tritium wrote:Saying men can't be raped is like saying that slutty women can't be raped.

From that sentence, it sounded like you were saying all guys are sluts. Sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick!

Castiel wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:Saying men can't be raped is like saying that slutty women can't be raped.

From that sentence, it sounded like you were saying all guys are sluts. Sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick!

I understand how you would think that just reading that post, but most of the time it's important to read the quoted post/ongoing conversation for context.

I should have quoted more stuff going back to make it clearer.

Ok Ok, yeah lets get off this topic, and Tritium you can get off my balls. I was only fething around..

(But seriously.. I really wouldn't care if I got racked and raped by a honking bird)

mattyrm wrote: Ok Ok, yeah lets get off this topic, and Tritium you can get off my balls. I was only fething around..

(But seriously.. I really wouldn't care if I got racked and raped by a honking bird)

I think you'd care if you got racked, by anyone. OWIE!

I think the thing to remember with rape is that the reason people get away with it has a lot more to do with social pressures than physical force.

Strange things happen in emotionally abusive relationships that make people feel like they have to stay. Strange things happen in tight-knit friend circles that make the victim avoid reporting it because of what it would do to them socially. There are a lot of forces at play besides "rapist is stronger than victim" that get ignored.

If it were as simple as some people claim, it wouldn't actually be a problem, now would it.

Rented Tritium wrote:I think the thing to remember with rape is that the reason people get away with it has a lot more to do with social pressures than physical force.

Strange things happen in emotionally abusive relationships that make people feel like they have to stay. Strange things happen in tight-knit friend circles that make the victim avoid reporting it because of what it would do to them socially. There are a lot of forces at play besides "rapist is stronger than victim" that get ignored.

If it were as simple as some people claim, it wouldn't actually be a problem, now would it.

This is an insightful post.

more than one million women were raped in the 12 months prior to the survey, estimates show

Not laughing about the rape but uh... estimates prove something?

It's an article about statistics. If you want to extract anything useful out of it then you have to understand how the statistics were derived because with careful tweaking you can make a statistical study say almost anything. That said the original article includes a link to the actual study for once so you can dig that kind of stuff out. Go BBC I suppose on that count.

Tyyr wrote:

more than one million women were raped in the 12 months prior to the survey, estimates show

Not laughing about the rape but uh... estimates prove something?

So I presume that you never estimate anything in your life, and you only ever take action or give a damn when you see precise numbers?

(hint, this is false, only someone who is mentally deficient would do such)

Too few men reported rape by an intimate partner to produce reliable prevalence estimates. Approximately 1 in 12 men in the United States (8.0% or approximately 9 million) has experienced sexual violence other than rape by an intimate partner in his lifetime (Table 4.6). This includes being made to penetrate an intimate partner (2.2%), sexual coercion (4.2%), unwanted sexual contact (2.6%) and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences (2.7%). In the 12 months prior to taking the survey, 2.5% or nearly 2.8 million men experienced sexual violence other than rape by an intimate partner

mattyrm wrote:

Well, alright then Ill try a different approach. Does it actually bother a bloke?

I mean, If I was walking home from the pub and I got shot with a tranq dart, woke up tied to a table an hour later whereupon a big fat ginger bird with teeth like a witch-doctors necklace showed me a bizarre selection of pornography ala "A clockwork Orange" and then bounced on me till she got her rocks off before fleeing the scene, I think Id probably just go home for a long shower and then go back to the pub the next day..

"you lot aren't going to fething believe what some honking bird made me do yesterday!"

Matt, between this post and the one you did before, I'm convinced you should be writing novels or for the movies. I about pissed me britches laughing!

It's always fun to aggrandize yourself and make yourself out to be a tough guy, saying if something happens you'll not be bothered at all.

Lux_Lucis wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:That is one of the arguments around the issue.

There are women from the 60s who say that in those days they sometimes consented reluctantly to sex in circumstances where actually they would have preferred not to have sex, because it was less trouble than having a row about it. They did not consider this rape as such, merely an episode of bad sex.

These same women say that modern women do consider such circumstances to be rape, and will complain about it in surveys, which helps explain the higher reporting of rape.

Remembering that in the UK until 1994, a wife was deemed to have consented in perpetuity to sex with her husband.

1991, not 1994. R v R, House of Lords. Most previous cases had found other ways to prosecute though that didn't require a clarification of that point of law.

1991 then. The point still stands.

Relapse wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

Well, alright then Ill try a different approach. Does it actually bother a bloke?

I mean, If I was walking home from the pub and I got shot with a tranq dart, woke up tied to a table an hour later whereupon a big fat ginger bird with teeth like a witch-doctors necklace showed me a bizarre selection of pornography ala "A clockwork Orange" and then bounced on me till she got her rocks off before fleeing the scene, I think Id probably just go home for a long shower and then go back to the pub the next day..

"you lot aren't going to fething believe what some honking bird made me do yesterday!"

Matt, between this post and the one you did before, I'm convinced you should be writing novels or for the movies. I about pissed me britches laughing!

Thanks mate! Ive got loads of hoofing stories from my time in the RM, but sadly 90% of it isn't suitable for dakka.

Monster Rain is meeting me in San Diego in a fortnight though, and I shall regale him with the always popular heartwarming tale about that time I was sexually assaulted.

mattyrm wrote: Monster Rain is meeting me in San Diego in a fortnight though, and I shall regale him with the always popular heartwarming tale about that time I was sexually assaulted.

And you may end up with a new tale to tell!

Monster Rain wrote:

mattyrm wrote: Monster Rain is meeting me in San Diego in a fortnight though, and I shall regale him with the always popular heartwarming tale about that time I was sexually assaulted.

And you may end up with a new tale to tell!

Hmm..

I best stick to 15 pints then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

halonachos wrote:Turns out that male-male rape may be more prevalent than male-female.

Well obviously! That was my point, sure it is possible for a bloke to get raped by a woman, but it's probably way more common for a bloke to get attacked by several men, have the gak beat out of him and then get forcibly raped by a large irate homosexual, I mean ive actually read several stories about that happening over the years.

My point was it must be really hard for a lass to actually rape a bloke.. bloke on bloke, not so tough. Having the power to phsyically overpower and rape someone has to be far far more common than using some bizzare chain of events that would allow a woman to rape a man. And by that I mean a man get forced to have intercourse with her, not get tied up and reamed by an obese lesbian with an Italian waiters pepperpot strapped to the front of her overalls.

Being coerced into sex is not a "bizarre chain of events".

You've really got this idea of rape suck in your head where a person is attacking and holding someone down. That is not how most rapes are.

Most of the time when a man rapes a woman, it is not even like that, so why are you assuming a woman would need to overpower a man?

And I thought we were done with this, why are you talking about it again? If you bring it back up, I will start arguing it again.

Rented Tritium wrote:Being coerced into sex is not a "bizarre chain of events".

You've really got this idea of rape suck in your head where a person is attacking and holding someone down. That is not how most rapes are.

I have because the image of a fat woman raping a skinny bloke armed with a mace is funnier, also because of common sense though!

Honestly, how does a woman manage it without drugs or some inexplicable chain of events.. just tell me this then, how does a young man get raped by a young woman realistically.. just talk me through how you reckon one could go down, because I'm genuinely interested.

Secondly, how common do you think it is? I mean, really?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
actually my mates just rocked up and were off to the boozer, we can do this tomorrow!

mattyrm wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:Being coerced into sex is not a "bizarre chain of events".

You've really got this idea of rape suck in your head where a person is attacking and holding someone down. That is not how most rapes are.

I have because the image of a fat woman raping a skinny bloke armed with a mace is funnier, also because of common sense though!

For some reason I like to picture her wearing an eye patch.

mattyrm wrote:[...] then get forcibly raped by a large irate homosexual,

More likely the attacker is bisexual leaning towards straight, statistically speaking, and that there just wasn't a woman around to victimize (if you're referring to prison).

mattyrm wrote:

Relapse wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

Well, alright then Ill try a different approach. Does it actually bother a bloke?

I mean, If I was walking home from the pub and I got shot with a tranq dart, woke up tied to a table an hour later whereupon a big fat ginger bird with teeth like a witch-doctors necklace showed me a bizarre selection of pornography ala "A clockwork Orange" and then bounced on me till she got her rocks off before fleeing the scene, I think Id probably just go home for a long shower and then go back to the pub the next day..

"you lot aren't going to fething believe what some honking bird made me do yesterday!"

Matt, between this post and the one you did before, I'm convinced you should be writing novels or for the movies. I about pissed me britches laughing!

Thanks mate! Ive got loads of hoofing stories from my time in the RM, but sadly 90% of it isn't suitable for dakka.

I can vouch for that. Most of it isn't suitable for me, and I'm, well, me!

mattyrm wrote:Honestly, how does a woman manage it without drugs or some inexplicable chain of events.. just tell me this then, how does a young man get raped by a young woman realistically.. just talk me through how you reckon one could go down, because I'm genuinely interested.

Most male on female rapes are NOT forcible. Why should female on male rapes be any different? Social pressure makes men not fight back against women. They're afraid of being ostracized. They're afraid of being called gay. The rapist may even say she'll tell everyone he raped her if he doesn't, etc.

Believe it or not, a boner and failure to fight back does not constitute consent.

You can meet the requirements for rape with a very aggressive girl and a guy who's embarrassed to say no. You can meet them with a female boss or a coworker demanding or coercing sex. You can meet them with a very drunk man and a predatory woman.

Basically it can happen in all of the exact same ways a woman can be raped without force.

But I suspect you're one of those people who thinks that it's not real rape unless force is used, given some of your posts itt.

Women can anally rape a man with implements. It does happen.

Howard A Treesong wrote:Women can anally rape a man.

However, there are not in this country gangs of horny women going around pegging men with strapons.

Howard A Treesong wrote:Women can anally rape a man with implements. It does happen.

This is still missing the point. The rapist does not have to penetrate the victim. ANY sex act which one of the parties does not consent to is rape. If the woman coerces the man into penetrating her, that is still rape. The person doing the penetration does not need to be the rapist. The penetration rape connection is a complete misnomer.

Melissia wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:Women can anally rape a man.

However, there are not in this country gangs of horny women going around pegging men with strapons.

Indeed. Frankly, who cares, get off it. You're effectively trolling the topic at this point.

As a pretty well-build bi-sexual man it does amuse me when men (usually of a certain "type") take a cavalier attitude towards rape/sexual assault.
Wonder how much they'd like it if I did that to them? Or made them do something that wasn't penetrative and therefore didn't count.

Joey wrote:As a pretty well-build bi-sexual man it does amuse me when men (usually of a certain "type") take a cavalier attitude towards rape/sexual assault.
Wonder how much they'd like it if I did that to them? Or made them do something that wasn't penetrative and therefore didn't count.

Seriously though, that was a pretty crazy thing to say.

Monster Rain wrote:
Seriously though, that was a pretty crazy thing to say.

Saying that a "real man" shouldn't mind being raped is a fair bit crazier, I think.

First of all, that's a bit of a misrepresentation of Matty's point.

Secondly, even if that was exactly what Mattyrm said, no it isn't a crazier thing to say.

It's really not.

Rented Tritium wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:
Seriously though, that was a pretty crazy thing to say.

Saying that a "real man" shouldn't mind being raped is a fair bit crazier, I think.

That was kind of my point.
Wonder how matty would mind if I held a knife to his throat and made him do things? Don't think he'd like it very much.

Monster Rain wrote:Secondly, even if that was exactly what Mattyrm said, no it isn't a crazier thing to say.

How do you figure?

One is a one-off joke concerning someone's legendary masculinity, and the other is musing about raping another poster.

It hurts me to have to explain this.

Joey wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:
Seriously though, that was a pretty crazy thing to say.

Saying that a "real man" shouldn't mind being raped is a fair bit crazier, I think.

That was kind of my point.
Wonder how matty would mind if I held a knife to his throat and made him do things? Don't think he'd like it very much.

I think Matty calls that...foreplay.

Monster Rain wrote:One is a one-off joke concerning someone's legendary masculinity, and the other is musing about raping another poster.

It hurts me to have to explain this.

So its okay for him to make light of the rape of thousands of men...but for me to joke about it involving him is "too far"?
You see my point bro?

Joey wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:One is a one-off joke concerning someone's legendary masculinity, and the other is musing about raping another poster.

It hurts me to have to explain this.

So its okay for him to make light of the rape of thousands of men...but for me to joke about it involving him is "too far"?
You see my point bro?

Thousads of men, by women...

You're obsessed with that dog.
I actually think it looks rather sweet.

Joey wrote:You're obsessed with that dog.
I actually think it looks rather sweet.

TBone is very sweet, lurking you in..then BAM! POW! skitter skitter skitter KCHUNK! KCHUNK! KCHUNK! (ball hits wall, Troy catches ball, shuffles back-that part can take awhile-squeeze squeeze squeeze as he chews the ball) - then repeat 47 more times.

Joey wrote:You're obsessed with that dog.
I actually think it looks rather sweet.

That's what they want you to think.

I never thought I'd ever be laughing so hard about such a serious subject, but damn, people, these last few posts have gotten me to the point where I can barely breath!
Starting with Matty's posts and everyone getting worked up by it to Joey insinuating he's out to rape him a Royal Marine To teach him a lesson, followed by Machete and the Weiner.... Not to mention strap on wearing female rapists roaming the country side as presented by Melissa.
All I can say is in before lock!

Relapse wrote:I never thought I'd ever be laughing so hard about such a serious subject, but damn, people, these last few posts have gotten me to the point where I can barely breath!
Starting with Matty's posts and everyone getting worked up by it to Joey insinuating he's out to rape him a Royal Marine To teach him a lesson, followed by Machete and the Weiner.... Not to mention strap on wearing female rapists roaming the country side as presented by Melissa.
All I can say is in before lock!

Its people like these that make Dakka Dakka a hilarious place. Where they can sum up this thread and make fun of it. In all seriousness this is a very serious discussion!

I still can't believe how rude officers are to some people about crimes here in reporting them.

I'm far too pissed to reply to everything at the moment, Ill just merely point out that if Joey attempted to rape me at knife point I would despatch him with consumate ease. If I deemed that was impossible, I would play along and pretend to be submissive, before taking him in my mouth, savagely biting his wanger off at the hilt, and then spit his bell-end into the corner and break dance on it.

mattyrm wrote:I'm far too pissed to reply to everything at the moment, Ill just merely point out that if Joey attempted to rape me at knife point I would despatch him with consumate ease. If I deemed that was impossible, I would play along and pretend to be submissive, before taking him in my mouth, savagely biting his wanger off at the hilt, and then spit his bell-end into the corner and break dance on it.

I'm a bit worried about you matty.

mattyrm wrote:I'm far too pissed to reply to everything at the moment, Ill just merely point out that if Joey attempted to rape me at knife point I would despatch him with consumate ease. If I deemed that was impossible, I would play along and pretend to be submissive, before taking him in my mouth, savagely biting his wanger off at the hilt, and then spit his bell-end into the corner and break dance on it.

Men can be raped by women in more than one way. If its the male penetrating the female it can still be rape. The male appendage reacts to stimulation, not your willpower so even if you don't want to its still going to happen.

If not that way then you'd be surprised at the amount of sex toys that have empowered women.

Joey wrote:

mattyrm wrote:I'm far too pissed to reply to everything at the moment, Ill just merely point out that if Joey attempted to rape me at knife point I would despatch him with consumate ease. If I deemed that was impossible, I would play along and pretend to be submissive, before taking him in my mouth, savagely biting his wanger off at the hilt, and then spit his bell-end into the corner and break dance on it.

oh you rough boy

When I logged in to Dakka today, the last thing I expected to read was mattyrm describing how he would fend off a rapist.

This is the greatest thread I've come across in quite some time.

Monster Rain wrote:When I logged in to Dakka today, the last thing I expected to read was mattyrm describing how he would fend off a rapist.

This is the greatest thread I've come across in quite some time.

That's Matty!

*insert sitcom laugh track*

Monster Rain wrote:When I logged in to Dakka today, the last thing I expected to read was mattyrm describing how he would fend off a rapist.

This is the greatest thread I've come across in quite some time.

Wait 'til you meet him! Honestly, this is mild. Matty Light, if you will.

So wish I was coming over too.

Me too, Alby. When can I expect you to grace my local pub scene?

I'm afraid rape is very prominent in the US. I live in a middle class zone and I've met at least 5 women who've been raped (not including the ones who say it happened to them for attention)

Its a sick fethed up thing. I honestly think it's american culture, not to bash my own country but every where I go people eye me up like they want to fight me. You can't go through Philadelphia without feeling like someone wants to kick your ass for whatever reason. In fact in the low crime rate part where I live, the teenagers around here eye me up and I'm at least 5 years older then them. It really gets to me.

Sometimes I think about getting in their face and causing something because I get sick of it, but i just flip them off and they turn their heads. God what is this nation coming to? i feel like i want to break something.

Ok, Im up and only mildly hungover, so I shall rescue this train-wreck of a thread with my usual brand of subtle and nuanced diplomacy and get it back on track.

I would like to thank everyone for contributing however, as the first two pages gave me some further insight into the conversation I had with the missus, about what possible reasons could contribute to a higher percentage of rape in a country that is so similar to my own. Perhaps it is simply that we don't report it as much here, or perhaps it is indeed due to some subtle differences in our culture...

Now lets try and draw a line under the man rape thing, because Ive got Joey coming round to try and rape me at 1400hrs and I don't want to keep the lad waiting.

Rented Tritium wrote:

Most male on female rapes are NOT forcible. Why should female on male rapes be any different? Social pressure makes men not fight back against women. They're afraid of being ostracized. They're afraid of being called gay. The rapist may even say she'll tell everyone he raped her if he doesn't, etc.

Believe it or not, a boner and failure to fight back does not constitute consent.

Basically it can happen in all of the exact same ways a woman can be raped without force.

But I suspect you're one of those people who thinks that it's not real rape unless force is used, given some of your posts itt.

This post is basically the crux of it, and I suspect the reason why people like Frazz and Monster are pitching in, because they understand exactly what I am attempting to say. I didn't say that men cannot be raped by heterosexual women (as I and Mel pointed out, lets not even mention ill tempered obese lesbians with a penchant for sodomizing men armed with cattle pods and strap on dildos) I said that they are so staggeringly rare in comparison it is hardly worth talking about.

Rented Tritium wrote:Why should female on male rapes be any different?

They should. If you can sit there and tell me with a straight face that men and women can both be verbally "pressured" into sex with equal measure, your flagrantly pushing the boundaries of reality and inventing really really unlikely gak to try and defend your point. You can try and smear my argument by saying "Oh your no different than a man who says a woman deserves it if she wears a short skirt!" but the fact is, if a woman is in a bedroom with a man and he is constantly harassing her for sex, and she is telling him no repeatedly, there may be a point where she feels as though he COULD escalate the situation and then give in to sex in order to stop this from occurring, thus I can see how it could be easy for a woman to be raped without force being used, but for a man?!

If you are in a bedroom with a chick, and this has actually happened to me (see earlier!) who demands sex even though you really don't want to sleep with her, and you say no numerous times, and she wont let you sleep, and you keep saying "leave me alone" "let me sleep" "no" "no" and she says "your not leaving till you feth me" or "im not leaving you alone till you feth me" and this goes on and on and on, so eventually you make a decision, you really only have two choices, either a) Get up, dress, and stomp out the door despite all of her protests. Or b) Sigh, and plug the bunny boiler then hope she finally leaves you in peace.

This occurs, I'm sure something similar has happened to most men at some point.

Are you seriously suggetsing that If you take option B, you have just been RAPED!?

Does that not cheapen rape? In the same way that when a black bloke who gets pulled over by the police for doing 60 in a 30 zone and says "Its only cos Im black!" cheapens actual racism, you attempting the claim that men and women are identical in this situation cheapens rape for the actual victims, women who give in and sleep with a man because they genuinely fear the consequences of not doing so.

I can see your point, and I can see that some men would say "yes I have been raped and I am emotionally scarred by it" following a heterosexual rape, but seriously, what would the MAJORITY of men do in your non violence heterosexual rape scenario? You are attempting to paint my views as some ridiculous ultra ultra macho cage fighting, bear fething, beer swilling manly man or manness view but it isnt, its what ordniary blokes think, your average guy leans towards being relatively unconcerned by a woman pressuring them into sex, because they know that if they really really wanted to escape the situation they could. Your stance is more rare, because less men are ultra ultra sensitive and effeminate and genuinelly worry about being "non violently pressured" into sex with a woman.

Mate, men and women aren't biologically identical. That's just the way of it, a man and woman of equal height and weight the man will be far stronger due to a higher percentage of his body weight coming from muscle mass. So the whole "why should it be any different" line is just plain wrong. Maybe it makes sense to you on paper, but there is no common sense behind it. I certainly wouldn't classify one of your "non violent heterosexual rape" scenarios as a rape. Im pretty sure the majority of straight men wouldn't either.

Its merely a pain in the arse.

For once I agree with mattyrm.

It should be noted that the great majority of rapes are of women by men -- the woman-on-man scenario is pretty much a red herring.

Monster Rain wrote:Me too, Alby. When can I expect you to grace my local pub scene?

Not sure. Me and the missus are planning a 'big' holiday (as in, outside of Europe) for next year, but I have a funny feeling that going to California just so's I can meet up with Dakkanauts might be a hard sell! Still worth a shot, though.

When can I expect you to grace my local pub scene?

Kilkrazy wrote:For once I agree with mattyrm.

Hey we agreed once last year as well, remember?

Oh no.. sorry I think that was Karon.

To tell the truth, I can only see a male being raped by a woman in only three types of scenarios:

1- A child not old enough to defend himself against an adult

2- A totally terrified man with multiple armed assailants

3- Drugged

Anything outside of that seems like it would be stuff a guy wishes would happen.

Relapse wrote:
Anything outside of that seems like it would be stuff a guy wishes would happen.

So men just don't have the right to choose their sexual partners? Any sex they get that's not physical forced or drugged is just fun happy sex that all men want?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mattyrm wrote:If you can sit there and tell me with a straight face that men and women can both be verbally "pressured" into sex with equal measure, your flagrantly pushing the boundaries of reality and inventing really really unlikely gak to try and defend your point.

This is the part where we have to stop arguing because you're going to make me lose composure.

Suffice it to say, this is in the running for being the most ignorant and offensive thing anyone has ever said on this board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

If you are in a bedroom with a chick, and this has actually happened to me (see earlier!) who demands sex even though you really don't want to sleep with her, and you say no numerous times, and she wont let you sleep, and you keep saying "leave me alone" "let me sleep" "no" "no" and she says "your not leaving till you feth me" or "im not leaving you alone till you feth me" and this goes on and on and on, so eventually you make a decision, you really only have two choices, either a) Get up, dress, and stomp out the door despite all of her protests. Or b) Sigh, and plug the bunny boiler then hope she finally leaves you in peace.

This occurs, I'm sure something similar has happened to most men at some point.

Are you seriously suggetsing that If you take option B, you have just been RAPED!?

If a woman takes option B, she has been raped, but if a man does, he hasn't?

feth you

I think its time to pour a bit of cold water on this debate here, and everyone take 5 to cool off before we continue!

If you are in a bedroom with a chick, and this has actually happened to me (see earlier!) who demands sex even though you really don't want to sleep with her, and you say no numerous times, and she wont let you sleep, and you keep saying "leave me alone" "let me sleep" "no" "no" and she says "your not leaving till you feth me"
[...]
Are you seriously suggetsing that If you take option B, you have just been RAPED!?

I would not only suggest that is rape, but so would the law.

If you did this to me, I'd shoot you.

Numerous times in fact, either at the time or after the fact depending on how scared I was at the time (premeditated murder justified by rape is something juries eat up you know).

I think that's a good standard to live by; you know, hold others to the same standard as myself?

I think the problem is that Matt wants to argue about woman on man rape when it's clear that he doesn't actually understand man on woman rape in the first place.

He's saying men can't be raped with force because they're stronger, but THEN he says they can't be coerced EITHER.

So men are mentally AND physically stronger than women SO MUCH SO that it's horrifically unlikely that they'd be raped by them.

Going back to the A or B scenario. In the real world, it's not "you're not leaving until you do me", in the real world it's "if you don't do me, I'm telling everyone you raped me" or "if you don't do me, you're fired", "if you don't do me, I'll tell everyone you're a slut" etc etc etc. This is how most rapes are in BOTH directions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And lets not forget the classic "I'm not the kind of person who gets raped, so I need to just suck this up so I don't get judged later"

That one's a real doozie.

Going back to the A or B scenario. In the real world, it's not "you're not leaving until you do me", in the real world it's "if you don't do me, I'm telling everyone you raped me" or "if you don't do me, you're fired", "if you don't do me, I'll tell everyone you're a slut" etc etc etc. This is how most rapes are in BOTH DIRECTIONS.


Under no circumstance would I have sex with a woman who said that to me. If she's already thinking in that direction I'm not going to gift her with physical evidence in the way of DNA, possible bits of my skin under her nails, etc. to use against me later.

Honestly, there is nothing else I need to say. I have mapped the logic out in my lengthy post above. RT, why are you so upset though? It is merely a difference of opinion, there is no need to spit your dummy out because heaven forbid someone disagree's with you.

Melissia wrote:I would not only suggest that is rape, but so would the law.

If you did this to me, I'd shoot you.

Numerous times in fact, either at the time or after the fact depending on how scared I was at the time (premeditated murder justified by rape is something juries eat up you know).

I think that's a good standard to live by; you know, hold others to the same standard as myself?

Same to Melissa, read the post. Did I not say that clearly the scenario is different for the sexes? Of course it is rape by the law, certainly if it is the man threatning the woman, but It really is different for a man to be "threatened" by a woman, are you such a militant feminist that you can't fathom what I am saying? Or that you cant admit that you are weaker than a man the same height and weight as you? If you attempted the same dialogue with a man 99% of them will laugh in your face.

No, men and women are not the same, they really arent. So no, a woman telling a man "your not leaving this room until you shag me" is not the same thing as a man saying it to a woman.

Most men would laugh in the woman's face because they know she has no way of forcing the issue. If the sexes change it becomes a far far more sinister scenario. You can push this PC agenda that "both sexes are 100% equal" in this matter, but common sense dictates otherwise.

As I said, lets just leave it there. Some men will agree with RT here, but I'm confident that the overwhelming majority of average straight men agree with me and not Tritium, but whatever floats your.. er.. rape boat?

mattyrm wrote:Did I not say that clearly the scenario is different for the sexes?

I know you did, and that is why you are wrong.

You have a very skewed and possibly misogynistic/chauvinistic (in the old fashioned non-malicious way) view of genders which I don't agree with, in case it isn't obvious.

mattyrm wrote: . RT, why are you so upset though?

I am upset because I am a man and you are saying that because I am a man, I have less right to sexual agency than a woman. I am mad that you are saying I should feel a certain way or do a certain thing just because I am a man.

I am mad because you are disrespecting my personal right to choose my sexual partner by implying that certain decisions are always a certain way because I have a penis.

Rented Tritium wrote:

mattyrm wrote: . RT, why are you so upset though?

I am upset because I am a man and you are saying that because I am a man, I have less right to sexual agency than a woman. I am mad that you are saying I should feel a certain way or do a certain thing just because I am a man.

Im not saying that at all mate. Look, here is what I said...

mattyrm wrote:I can see your point, and I can see that some men would say "yes I have been raped and I am emotionally scarred by it" following a heterosexual rape, but seriously, what would the MAJORITY of men do in your non violence heterosexual rape scenario? You are attempting to paint my views as some ridiculous ultra ultra macho cage fighting, bear fething, beer swilling manly man or manness view but it isnt, its what ordniary blokes think, your average guy leans towards being relatively unconcerned by a woman pressuring them into sex, because they know that if they really really wanted to escape the situation they could. Your stance is more rare, because less men are ultra ultra sensitive and effeminate and genuinelly worry about being "non violently pressured" into sex with a woman.

There you go. All I said was that the "majority" of men would feel like me, not none. Im not trying to upset or offend you, im just saying thats the way it is. And honestly mate, it really is. I'm not saying that no men would feel really upset and offended, but generally speaking a guy is not as concerned when the roles are reversed because he is confident he can overpower his would be attacker.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

mattyrm wrote:Did I not say that clearly the scenario is different for the sexes?

I know you did, and that is why you are wrong.

You have a very skewed and possibly misogynistic/chauvinistic (in the old fashioned non-malicious way) view of genders which I don't agree with, in case it isn't obvious.

No offense taken by the way...

Yeah so what Im saying is that on paper yes the situations should be treated the same, but in reality they shouldn't.

I mean, if you were on a jury, would you convict a 105lb woman for "raping" a 220lb man in the above situation? I think that this line here should be taken as pivotal to my argument.

mattyrm wrote:your average guy leans towards being relatively unconcerned by a woman pressuring them into sex, because they know that if they really really wanted to escape the situation they could.

mattyrm wrote:
There you go. All I said was that the "majority" of men would feel like me, not none. Im not trying to upset or offend you, im just saying thats the way it is. And honestly mate, is it.

The "majority" of women who are raped don't report it and convince themselves it didn't count because of social pressures.

Does that make it not rape or unlikely?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Matt, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how rape OF ANY KIND works.

mattyrm wrote:
I can see your point, and I can see that some men would say "yes I have been raped and I am emotionally scarred by it" following a heterosexual rape, but seriously, what would the MAJORITY of men do in your non violence heterosexual rape scenario?

There's a reasonable argument that men cannot be raped by women in the conventional sense due to the fact that rape, by definition, requires penetration. That doesn't mean its impossible for men to be raped by women, its just much more difficult and much less likely, primarily due to biological limitations (women lack convenient "equipment" and are generally much less capable, physically, than men). Now, this doesn't mean that women cannot pressure men into sex via the implied, or explicit threat of force; its simply much less likely, barring extenuating circumstances (weaponry, an unusual distribution of physical ability) than the inverse situation. However, despite common perception to the contrary, if the man in question really doesn't have any interest in intercourse its fairly unlikely that he will be capable of engaging in it in the conventional sense, as no one, male or female, responds only to physical stimulation when it comes to sexuality.

Finally, and this may have been brought up before, but the crux of rape is consent. Simply pressuring someone into sex, whereby that pressure is not based on coercion, is not necessarily rape. If a woman, or man, is not initially interested in sex, but their potential partner is begging for it, or attempting to convince them that its a good idea, and the reluctant party eventually ascents then that party is not being raped as consent has been, per my understanding, freely given. The removal of that freedom to consent comes when force (or the threat of) becomes an issue, which as I noted above, is generally more likely where the man is applying coercive tactics by implicit, or explicit, action.

Rented Tritium wrote:

The "majority" of women who are raped don't report it and convince themselves it didn't count because of social pressures.

Does that make it not rape or unlikely?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Matt, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how rape OF ANY KIND works.

mattyrm wrote:No offense taken by the way...

I hope not, I wasn't intending to insult you, merely saying I find your views to be old-fashioned (mind you, I have some old-fashioned views myself).

mattyrm wrote:I mean, if you were on a jury, would you convict a 105lb woman for "raping" a 220lb man in the above situation?

That depends, is he a lovable gentle giant who wouldn't want to hurt a fly?

If it was a really aggressive guy, I wouldn't believe it no. But not all men are the same, despite what some people might claim Sure, the idea of an underweight, overly skinny woman (a woman who's 105 pounds at the average height of 5'6" is about 20-30 pounds underweight) intimidating a 220 pound bodybuilder (or fat guy) in to sex sounds ludicrous, but I've seen some mean, MEAN b****es who are very intimidating to be around, so I can very well see that such an aggressive woman (don't look at me, I'm not THAT mean) could intimidate a gentler man like that, even with size differences.

dogma wrote:

mattyrm wrote:
I can see your point, and I can see that some men would say "yes I have been raped and I am emotionally scarred by it" following a heterosexual rape, but seriously, what would the MAJORITY of men do in your non violence heterosexual rape scenario?

Finally, and this may have been brought up before, but the crux of rape is consent. Simply pressuring someone into sex, whereby that pressure is not based on coercion, is not necessarily rape.

Exactly! If we accept Tritiums ridiculously simplistic view of rape, that any and all pressure followed by consent counts as rape, then arent almost all of us both rapists and victims of rape?!

I mean, we have all been in bed with a woman who has said something along the lines of "oh...well, we have only known each other two minutes" or something, so they dont want to sleep with you. But after a bit of kissing and cuddling, 4 or 5 rebuttals and then a bit of ear nibbling you get the job done anyway, does that count as a rape!?

gak, I can imagine how it would look in court!

Defence - Can you tell us what happened next Miss Slackbreeches?

"Well, after dragging Matty back to my flat on the promise of a shag, tying him to the bed, showing him a selection of bizarre and distressing pornographic material, coating his entire body in marmalade, duct taping a burlap sack over his head, rubbing him for a bit, sucking him for a bit and then mounting him aggressively...... he.. ...... he raped me...

... for a few seconds.

Defence -


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

mattyrm wrote:No offense taken by the way...

I hope not, I wasn't intending to insult you, merely saying I find your views to be old-fashioned (mind you, I have some old-fashioned views myself).

mattyrm wrote:I mean, if you were on a jury, would you convict a 105lb woman for "raping" a 220lb man in the above situation?

That depends, is he a lovable gentle giant who wouldn't want to hurt a fly?

If it was a really aggressive guy, I wouldn't believe it no. But not all men are the same, despite what some people might claim Sure, the idea of an underweight, overly skinny woman (a woman who's 105 pounds at the average height of 5'6" is about 20-30 pounds underweight) intimidating a 220 pound bodybuilder (or fat guy) in to sex sounds ludicrous, but I've seen some mean, MEAN b****es who are very intimidating to be around, so I can very well see that such an aggressive woman (don't look at me, I'm not THAT mean) could intimidate a gentler man like that, even with size differences.

Yeah I don't disagree with you Melissa, all I was saying is that while Tritium has a point, and Tritium has a right to get upset about the issue because we are all different, my view is far more common than his, because most blokes would feel confident if they were being verbally "forced" into sex, they would be able to leave the scene or put their foot down about it. A woman (generally) has no such luxury.

I wasnt tyring to upset the bloke, or say he isnt entitled to his opinon, and if he felt that he had been raped in this way he would of course be able to report it and have it pursued legally, I was merely saying that my view is the more common amongst straight males, and it really is. Go ask some!

mattyrm wrote:

dogma wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

I mean, we have all been in bed with a woman who has said something along the lines of "oh...well, we have only known each other two minutes" or something, so they dont want to sleep with you. But after a bit of kissing and cuddling, 4 or 5 rebuttals and then a bit of ear nibbling you get the job done anyway, does that count as a rape!?
gak, I can imagine how it would look in court!
Defence - Can you tell us what happened next Miss Slackbreeches?

"Well, after dragging Matty back to my flat on the promise of a shag, tying him to the bed, showing him a selection of bizarre and distressing pornographic material, coating his entire body in marmalade, duct taping a burlap sack over his head, rubbing him for a bit, sucking him for a bit and then mounting him aggressively...... he.. ...... he raped me...

... for a few seconds.

Defence -

As always, Matty, you get the point across in a way worthy of the best humor writers.

Now may I suggest we all adjourn to a far calmer thread about religion vs. Science?

Reply by: dogma - click to view full reply 

5534

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 15:09:49

Post by: dogma

mattyrm wrote:
Exactly! If we accept Tritiums ridiculously simplistic view of rape, that any and all pressure followed by consent counts as rape, then arent almost all of us both rapists and victims of rape?!

My senior of college I was dating a freshman, we had a pretty good thing going, and so she was around my dorm room pretty much all the time; to the point of essentially living with me. We would both be doing homework, but because her homework was far less time consuming than mine, she would always finish first. This inevitably lead to her doing her level best to convince that there were more important, and interesting things than my capstone, I'd object for a little while, but eventually her arguments proved irrefutable.

Reply by: mattyrm - click to view full reply 

21853

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 15:15:26

Post by: mattyrm

dogma wrote:

mattyrm wrote:
Exactly! If we accept Tritiums ridiculously simplistic view of rape, that any and all pressure followed by consent counts as rape, then arent almost all of us both rapists and victims of rape?!

My senior of college I was dating a freshman, we had a pretty good thing going, and so she was around my dorm room pretty much all the time; to the point of essentially living with me. We would both be doing homework, but because her homework was far less time consuming than mine, she would always finish first. This inevitably lead to her doing her level best to convince that there were more important, and interesting things than my capstone, I'd object for a little while, but eventually her arguments proved irrefutable.

Impressive! She must have been captain of the debate team that one!

Reply by: Relapse - click to view full reply 

121

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 15:16:32

Post by: Relapse

You know, reading what Matty wrote, I'm all of the sudden struck with this image of him, in chains, on trial for rape in an all female court.
The officers of the court, jury, and spectators all hot babes, of course, in tight clothes unbuttoned to the navel.
Let you imaginations take it from there.

Reply by: Albatross - click to view full reply 

15594

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 15:22:18

Post by: Albatross

dogma wrote:

mattyrm wrote:
Exactly! If we accept Tritiums ridiculously simplistic view of rape, that any and all pressure followed by consent counts as rape, then arent almost all of us both rapists and victims of rape?!

My senior of college I was dating a freshman, we had a pretty good thing going, and so she was around my dorm room pretty much all the time; to the point of essentially living with me. We would both be doing homework, but because her homework was far less time consuming than mine, she would always finish first. This inevitably lead to her doing her level best to convince that there were more important, and interesting things than my capstone, I'd object for a little while, but eventually her arguments proved irrefutable.

I assume you reported this horrific sexual assault to the nearest police officer post-haste?

Reply by: mattyrm - click to view full reply 

21853

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 15:23:00

Post by: mattyrm

Albatross wrote:

dogma wrote:

mattyrm wrote:
Exactly! If we accept Tritiums ridiculously simplistic view of rape, that any and all pressure followed by consent counts as rape, then arent almost all of us both rapists and victims of rape?!

My senior of college I was dating a freshman, we had a pretty good thing going, and so she was around my dorm room pretty much all the time; to the point of essentially living with me. We would both be doing homework, but because her homework was far less time consuming than mine, she would always finish first. This inevitably lead to her doing her level best to convince that there were more important, and interesting things than my capstone, I'd object for a little while, but eventually her arguments proved irrefutable.

I assume you reported this horrific sexual assault to the nearest police officer post-haste?

I'd give the bitch 20 years me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Relapse wrote:You know, reading what Matty wrote, I'm all of the sudden struck with this image of him, in chains, on trial for rape in an all female court.
The officers of the court, jury, and spectators all hot babes, of course, in tight clothes unbuttoned to the navel.
Let you imaginations take it from there.

If the prison looked like the court I'd be pleading guilty!

Reply by: dogma - click to view full reply 

5534

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 15:28:07

Post by: dogma

Albatross wrote:
I assume you reported this horrific sexual assault to the nearest police officer post-haste?

I was far too scarred, emotionally, and couldn't bring myself to do anything besides take a shower with the offending party.

Reply by: mattyrm - click to view full reply 

21853

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 15:30:07

Post by: mattyrm

dogma wrote:

Albatross wrote:
I assume you reported this horrific sexual assault to the nearest police officer post-haste?

I was far too scarred, emotionally, and couldn't bring myself to do anything besides take a shower with the offending party.

At which point she started rubbing herself off against the towel rail and I've suffered with shell shock ever since.

Reply by: Rented Tritium - click to view full reply 

33541

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 15:41:59

Post by: Rented Tritium

mattyrm wrote:
Exactly! If we accept Tritiums ridiculously simplistic view of rape, that any and all pressure followed by consent counts as rape, then arent almost all of us both rapists and victims of rape?

I didn't even REMOTELY say that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Again, what do you do when she says "I will say you raped me if you dont"

Where's your "luxury of leaving" now. What if it's your boss? What if it's someone in a position of social power? What if you really don't want it, but your social circle will make fun of you for not doing it.

Again, it is like you actually have no idea how men rape women. Women are not raped by physical force or just regular old pressure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And you keep talking about how SUPER UNLIKELY it is even though 1 in 12 American men has been raped.

Reply by: mattyrm - click to view full reply 

21853

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 15:55:51

Post by: mattyrm

Rented Tritium wrote:
Again, what do you do when she says "I will say you raped me if you dont"

Go home.

Rented Tritium wrote:What if it's someone in a position of social power? What if you really don't want it, but your social circle will make fun of you for not doing it.

I really need to answer this one?

So, let me get this straight. You are worried about your friends taking the piss out of you, so you feth her, and that means you have just been raped?

That's called consent mate. You are such a precious flower that you cant take a bit of ribbing from your mates, so you thought "sod it" and shagged her. That aint rape. That's you consenting because your a pussy.

Seriously, Im really not trying to offend you, and you are entitled to your opinion.

I just think that the vast majority of men see things my way and not yours. Lets just leave it at that.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 15:57:08

Post by: Melissia

mattyrm wrote: So, let me get this straight. You are worried about your friends taking the piss out of you, so you feth her, and that means you have just been raped?

That's called consent mate.

That's not what the law says, and I don't agree with it either.

Being coerced in to sex is rape. It doesn't matter if you're male or female.

Reply by: Albatross - click to view full reply 

15594

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 16:00:01

Post by: Albatross

Rented Tritium wrote:

mattyrm wrote:
Exactly! If we accept Tritiums ridiculously simplistic view of rape, that any and all pressure followed by consent counts as rape, then arent almost all of us both rapists and victims of rape?

I didn't even REMOTELY say that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Again, what do you do when she says "I will say you raped me if you dont"

Where's your "luxury of leaving" now. What if it's your boss? What if it's someone in a position of social power? What if you really don't want it, but your social circle will make fun of you for not doing it.

Again, it is like you actually have no idea how men rape women. Women are not raped by physical force or just regular old pressure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And you keep talking about how SUPER UNLIKELY it is even though 1 in 12 American men has been raped.

By women? In the way that you mentioned? That sounds very unlikely, to put it mildly.

Reply by: mattyrm - click to view full reply 

21853

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 16:03:35

Post by: mattyrm

Melissia wrote:

mattyrm wrote: So, let me get this straight. You are worried about your friends taking the piss out of you, so you feth her, and that means you have just been raped?

That's called consent mate.

That's not what the law says, and I don't agree with it either.

Being coerced in to sex is rape. It doesn't matter if you're male or female.

It really does Melissa.

As I said, I can fully see your point, in theory yes a straight man can be raped by having intercourse with a woman. But nothing is black and white, and that is why we have courts and jury's. You would really struggle to make a convincing case against a woman for rape in this scenario, and as I said earlier, this chat has gotten out of hand because Tritium is really pushing the boundaries of what is likely into increasingly fanciful and unlikely scenarios in order to make his point.

And do you remember what I said about this debate cheapening rape for the victims of actual rape?

If you define rape as consenting to sex after a little bit of pressure, than I am pleased to tell you I have been raped numerous times and have suffered no ill effects from it.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 16:07:17

Post by: Melissia

mattyrm wrote:in theory yes

In actuality, yes.

I'm not cheapening rape.

You, on the other hand, are now insulting people who have been raped because you don't think non-violent rape is actually rape.

Reply by: AustonT - click to view full reply 

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Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 16:07:26

Post by: AustonT

Does your wife know matty?

Reply by: mattyrm - click to view full reply 

21853

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 16:11:12

Post by: mattyrm

AustonT wrote:Does your wife know matty?

Of course she does, she raped me on Tuesday.

Its alright though, because I raped her on Thursday.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

You, on the other hand, are now insulting people who have been raped because you don't think non-violent rape is actually rape.

No I'm not.

I'm saying that is why we have laws, but we have courts filled with humans who make decisions. If a man applies genuine and prolonged verbal pressure to a woman, he can indeed rape her and I sympathise with her.

But according to you and Tritium, literally every person on this board has been both a rapist and a rape victim. Simply applying a little bit of pressure after your girlfriend says "Not tonight, Ive got a headache" and nibbling on her ear until she changes her mind doesn't make you a rapist.

Similarly, changing your mind and shagging your partner when you really couldn't be bothered but she whined at you for ten minutes and then licked your neck for a bit doesn't make you a helpless victim of a traumatic rape.

Im stunned I have to type this out, clearly I am not the one with a fringe opinion here.

Reply by: Joey - click to view full reply 

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Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 16:19:39

Post by: Joey

mattyrm wrote:

AustonT wrote:Does your wife know matty?

Of course she does, she raped me on Tuesday.

Its alright though, because I raped her on Thursday.

i lold

Reply by: dogma - click to view full reply 

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Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 16:19:48

Post by: dogma

Rented Tritium wrote:Where's your "luxury of leaving" now. What if it's your boss? What if it's someone in a position of social power? What if you really don't want it, but your social circle will make fun of you for not doing it.

In an instance where the rapist possesses authority, then consent can be obtained via coercion where physical force is not used, and therefore can be considered rape; though there is still a much larger grey area regarding a woman raping a man via vaginal intercourse due to anatomical limitations.

Social power is fuzzier still, as there are necessary consequences to any action which might be aired in a social setting. Giving into a potential rapist due to a non-explicit threat of social ramifications is not necessarily rape, as the "rapist" has not actively engaged in coercion (in essence, the "rapist" would be held as criminally liable for a set of conditions outside of his explicit control). However, the deliberate use of social position in order to induce someone into engaging in sexual intercourse would be rape, though a very difficult form of rape to prove due to the relative fuzziness of social hierarchy and its impact on any potential victim.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

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Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 16:22:34

Post by: Melissia

mattyrm wrote: No I'm not.

Yes you are.

mattyrm wrote: And do you remember what I said about this debate cheapening rape for the victims of actual rape?

Claiming that someone who is coerced in to having sex is not a victim of "actual rape" is exactly what I said it was.

Reply by: dogma - click to view full reply 

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Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 16:25:19

Post by: dogma

Melissia wrote:
You, on the other hand, are now insulting people who have been raped because you don't think non-violent rape is actually rape.

To be fair, the term "nonviolent rape" is rather clumsy due to the fact that nonconsensual intercourse implicitly involves a violent act. In essence, and kind of nonconsensual sexual contact could be construed as fitting the definition of violence, though we often distinguish between certain forms of contact (inappropriate physical contact) and others (nonconsensual intercourse) as a matter of convenience regarding differentiation according to the severity of the action.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 0017/05/17 16:29:48

Post by: Melissia

I assumed that was the difference between rape and sexual assault-- that is to say, sexual assault is a kind of rape which is violent, with rape being a more general term for non-consenting sex.

edit: google's define function agrees with me.

Reply by: AustonT - click to view full reply 

29110

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 16:30:17

Post by: AustonT

Knowing what little I do about matty from Dakka I imagine both his and his wife's rapes were violent.

Reply by: Monster Rain - click to view full reply 

23223

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 0003/04/04 10:33:07

Post by: Monster Rain

Albatross wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Me too, Alby. When can I expect you to grace my local pub scene?

Not sure. Me and the missus are planning a 'big' holiday (as in, outside of Europe) for next year, but I have a funny feeling that going to California just so's I can meet up with Dakkanauts might be a hard sell! Still worth a shot, though.

When can I expect you to grace my local pub scene?

I'm not the only reason to come to California. Though I'm definitely in the top ten.

I'd love to make it over there one of these days, though.

Reply by: mattyrm - click to view full reply 

21853

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 16:35:37

Post by: mattyrm

Melissia wrote:

mattyrm wrote: No I'm not.

Yes you are.

mattyrm wrote: And do you remember what I said about this debate cheapening rape for the victims of actual rape?

Claiming that someone who is coerced in to having sex is not a victim of "actual rape" is exactly what I said it was.

Melissa, are you being deliberately obtuse? You must know exactly where I stand by now surely? I have written this as black and white as I possibly can, my last post said

mattyrm wrote:I'm saying that is why we have laws, but we have courts filled with humans who make decisions. If a man applies genuine and prolonged verbal pressure to a woman, he can indeed rape her and I sympathise with her.

As I said, I feel this conversation has ran its course. I didn't try to say a man can never ever be raped by a woman, I simply said that it is so much rarer it isn't worth concerning ourselves with, and the vast majority of straight men see things my way, and not yours or Tritiums. Very few straight men would classify not really wanting to have sex with a woman but being verbally harangued for ten minutes and then changing your mind and sleeping with her as "Oh my god, I have just been the victim of a terrible and traumatic rape"

I have no desire to try and change your mind, I'm just happy to know that the vast majority of straight men see things my way.

Reply by: dogma - click to view full reply 

5534

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 16:36:25

Post by: dogma

Melissia wrote:I assumed that was the difference between rape and sexual assault-- that is to say, sexual assault is a kind of rape which is violent, with rape being a more general term for non-consenting sex.

Well, it depends on the jurisdiction really, but every source I'm familiar with treats rape as a particular type of sexual assault involving intercourse, with secondary violence (ie. physical compulsion) being either an aggravating issue, or simply one possible means of determining whether coercion was utilized to create a situation in which the freedom to consent did not exist.

To simplify, rape is a type of sexual assault, but sexual assault does not necessarily entail rape.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 16:37:38

Post by: Melissia

dogma wrote:

Melissia wrote:I assumed that was the difference between rape and sexual assault-- that is to say, sexual assault is a kind of rape which is violent, with rape being a more general term for non-consenting sex.

Well, it depends on the jurisdiction really, but every source I'm familiar with treats rape as a particular type of sexual assault involving intercourse, with secondary violence (ie. physical compulsion) being either an aggravating issue, or simply one possible means of determining whether coercion was utilized to create a situation in which the freedom to consent did not exist.

To simplify, rape is a type of sexual assault, but sexual assault does not necessarily entail rape.

I hate legal debates...

Reply by: Monster Rain - click to view full reply 

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Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 16:38:48

Post by: Monster Rain

This is a debate?

It looks like dogma taking someone to school from where I'm setting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mattyrm wrote: Melissa, are you being deliberately obtuse?

Welcome to dakka, mattyrm!

Reply by: mattyrm - click to view full reply 

21853

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 16:44:00

Post by: mattyrm

Monster Rain wrote:

Welcome to dakka, mattyrm!

To be fair, this has been one of the best threads I've participated in for ages. When you get back from the pub after last orders and you see that a perfect stranger has just threatened to rape you at knife point, it is belly laughingly funny.

Reply by: Monster Rain - click to view full reply 

23223

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 16:45:19

Post by: Monster Rain

Oh,I agree.

This has been a hoot.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 16:45:38

Post by: Melissia

mattyrm wrote:You must know exactly where I stand by now surely

I do know where you stand, I don't know how many more ways I can say "I disagree" without repeating myself though.

Reply by: mattyrm - click to view full reply 

21853

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 16:47:20

Post by: mattyrm

Melissia wrote:

mattyrm wrote:You must know exactly where I stand by now surely

I do know where you stand, I don't know how many more ways I can say "I disagree" without repeating myself though.

Hey that's alright, I disagree with people all the time, we can still be pals!

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 16:48:13

Post by: Melissia

Yeah, I don't hate you for it, just saying I think you're wrong.

If I honestly disliked you I'd add you to my ignore list or something.

Reply by: Castiel - click to view full reply 

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Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 16:52:34

Post by: Castiel

mattyrm wrote: Very few straight men would classify not really wanting to have sex with a woman but being verbally harangued for ten minutes and then changing your mind and sleeping with her as "Oh my god, I have just been the victim of a terrible and traumatic rape"

I have no desire to try and change your mind, I'm just happy to know that the vast majority of straight men see things my way.

Do they really?

If someone who a person didn't want to have sex with harassed and harangued them for so long that they eventually did just to make them leave them alone, then I would say they were quite right to say they had been raped. If your boss or someone with a hold over you forced you to have sex with them or they'd fire you or whatever then again that is rape.

You seem unable to differentiate the difference between these situations and telling your girlfriend that your not in the mood, byt then changing your mind after she spends a few moments changing your mood. In the former, you don't want to the whole time, but have to, in the latter you don't want to, but then change your mind.

Reply by: Rented Tritium - click to view full reply 

33541

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 18:05:35

Post by: Rented Tritium

mattyrm wrote:, this chat has gotten out of hand because Tritium is really pushing the boundaries of what is likely into increasingly fanciful and unlikely scenarios in order to make his point.

I'm suggesting that men can be coerced into sex in the EXACT SAME MANNER in which women are most commonly coerced into sex and that they are both rape and that's "pushing the boundaries?"

Reply by: mattyrm - click to view full reply 

21853

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 18:21:32

Post by: mattyrm

Sigh..

Yes, because men aren't women.

Men aren't as susceptible to verbal pressure because men are almost always physically able to overpower a woman and leave the room at any time of their choosing, thus blunting any perceived threat from their words.

You do understand my point by now right? Im not even saying it cant happen, Im merely saying that the vast majority of men would do what I do, and if a woman said "feth me now or your not leaving" would go "See ya!" and stomp off home regardless.

Can we just forget about it and agree to disagree? This stopped being amusing at about 1600 this afternoon.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 18:27:39

Post by: Melissia

mattyrm wrote:Yes, because men aren't women.

But not as different as you think.

Reply by: Rented Tritium - click to view full reply 

33541

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 18:46:57

Post by: Rented Tritium

mattyrm wrote:Men aren't as susceptible to verbal pressure because men are almost always physically able to overpower a woman and leave the room at any time of their choosing, thus blunting any perceived threat from their words.

"If you don't do me, I will say you raped me"

I'd like you see you "overpower" that one

Your problem is that you think it always comes down to physical force. You think that even COERCION must come back to a threat of physical force. That's simply not true.

Reply by: Kilkrazy - click to view full reply 

299

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 18:49:42

Post by: Kilkrazy

Let's just remind ourselves that the original finding was that 20% of women have been raped. The number of men raped by any standard is far lower.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 19:27:30

Post by: Melissia

Kilkrazy wrote:Let's just remind ourselves that the original finding was that 20% of women have been raped. The number of men raped by any standard is far lower.

Next you'll go in to a religion in schools debate to remind us that David Barton is writing revisionist history

But yeah... all the talk on "---- on male rape" is distracting some people I think...

Reply by: Bastion of Mediocrity - click to view full reply 

36868

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 19:30:29

Post by: Bastion of Mediocrity

I really enjoyed reading this thread about a very difficult topic. Seems to me we need more words than just "rape" since there are many forms of sexual assault, and it does get very confusing and would seem to muddle the statistics.

I am totally against non-consensual sexual intercourse, but I have to agree with mattyrm that women and men are very different. From my physiology courses we learn about 20-30 changes that occur in sexual maturation due to the differences between estrogen and testosterone, one of them being that the musculature of the pectoral girdle (ie. shoulders and arms) tends to be about 45% greater in males than females.

This difference in anatomy alone supports mattyrm's argument, and that is without going into the psychological differences that occur in the brain's synapses due to estrogen vs. testosterone. Different worlds entirely

Reply by: mattyrm - click to view full reply 

21853

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 19:38:29

Post by: mattyrm

Rented Tritium wrote:

mattyrm wrote:Men aren't as susceptible to verbal pressure because men are almost always physically able to overpower a woman and leave the room at any time of their choosing, thus blunting any perceived threat from their words.

"If you don't do me, I will say you raped me"

Again, I would laugh in her face and go home, and I'm sure most men would do the same. Would you REALLY be stupid enough to shag a bird who said that to you?! Thats the biggest reason NOT to do it ive ever heard!

As I said, lets agree to disagree. You can shag the bunny boiler in this situation, I disagree and I think most men would.

Whatever floats your boat.

Reply by: Monster Rain - click to view full reply 

23223

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 19:44:43

Post by: Monster Rain

I definitely can say, without reservation, that I would leave the situation presented by RT and never be around that woman again.

Problem solved.

Reply by: Rented Tritium - click to view full reply 

33541

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 19:53:47

Post by: Rented Tritium

Kilkrazy wrote:Let's just remind ourselves that the original finding was that 20% of women have been raped. The number of men raped by any standard is far lower.

So?

He's saying that men who are raped by women are pussies. I'm pretty sure arguing against that position does not in any way detract from the horrors of rapes on women.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:I really enjoyed reading this thread about a very difficult topic. Seems to me we need more words than just "rape" since there are many forms of sexual assault, and it does get very confusing and would seem to muddle the statistics.

Yeah, with only one word for it, it's more difficult to pretend that some of them are less of a big deal.

It's bad enough that people can say that something isn't real rape, now you want to have an entirely different word?

No. Rape is rape.

Reply by: Do_I_Not_Like_That - click to view full reply 

27051

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 19:56:22

Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That

I like to think that people on this site are pretty smart, so let's do the maths.

America = pop.250 million (roughly)

The survey is estimating that 20% have been raped,abused,attacked etc by a partner = 50 million.

Let's assume for arguments sake that every victim was attacked by a different individual = 50 million

In other words, 100 million people, almost half the pop. have been raped,attacked or carried out these crimes!

Given that 30,000?? are killed by guns every year, another 20,000? are killed by cars, and some other survey on this site a few weeks ago was saying that 1 in 5 are on anti - depression medicine... I mean sweet jesus!! I refuse to believe that the nation that gave the world, Bill Hicks, Larry Hagman, Joe Frazier, John Adams, FDR, James Stewart, Martin Luther King, George Kennedy, Thomas Paine (I know he was born in the UK) etc etc has really went downhill so badly.

Reply by: Rented Tritium - click to view full reply 

33541

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 19:58:28

Post by: Rented Tritium

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: really went downhill so badly.

Right, because these things are totally new and weren't a part of human society since the beginning of time or anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:I definitely can say, without reservation, that I would leave the situation presented by RT and never be around that woman again.

Problem solved.

Well you can armchair rape victim all you want. People get stuck on the bad side of that all the time.

Reply by: Do_I_Not_Like_That - click to view full reply 

27051

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 20:14:02

Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That

@Rented Tritium. Sadly, these things aren't new, but even Genghis Khan's stag party weekend never got through 50 million people!
Always question the motivations of the people who do these surveys. Not that I'm saying they don't mean well, but crisis always gets more money than peace and quiet.

Reply by: Rented Tritium - click to view full reply 

33541

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 20:26:34

Post by: Rented Tritium

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:@Rented Tritium. Sadly, these things aren't new, but even Genghis Khan's stag party weekend never got through 50 million people!
Always question the motivations of the people who do these surveys. Not that I'm saying they don't mean well, but crisis always gets more money than peace and quiet.

Without a control survey from X years ago, there's no way to know what's uphill or downhill. Reporting rates fluctuate so greatly as well that you really can't say if there are more or less rapes than there were in the past.

Reply by: dogma - click to view full reply 

5534

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 20:36:51

Post by: dogma

Rented Tritium wrote:
Well you can armchair rape victim all you want. People get stuck on the bad side of that all the time.

Often times getting stuck on the bad side is caused by an overly judicious definition of what constitutes rape.

Reply by: Rented Tritium - click to view full reply 

33541

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 20:46:03

Post by: Rented Tritium

dogma wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:
Well you can armchair rape victim all you want. People get stuck on the bad side of that all the time.

Often times getting stuck on the bad side is caused by an overly judicious definition of what constitutes rape.

Right, yes. My stupid little "sex without consent" is just so simple that it couldn't POSSIBLY be the right way to define rape. We have to require penetration and physical force etc etc etc.

I mean, how else would we properly shame the victims of the fake rapes if we don't define them properly?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And again, for the record. I am NOT TALKING ABOUT RELUCTANCE.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 20:48:01

Post by: Melissia

Someone being coerced in to sex is rape,

that someone pays attention to the fact tgat coercion doesn't have to be physical violence isn't the same as being "overly judicious"...

Reply by: Monster Rain - click to view full reply 

23223

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 21:03:00

Post by: Monster Rain

Rented Tritium wrote:Well you can armchair rape victim all you want.

I think I was doing more of an "armchair rape avoider." If you're using your own delusional definition of rape, that is.

Rented Tritium wrote:People get stuck on the bad side of that all the time.

You're basing this statement off of what, exactly?

Reply by: AustonT - click to view full reply 

29110

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 21:08:34

Post by: AustonT

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:I like to think that people on this site are pretty smart, so let's do the maths.

America = pop.250 million (roughly).

Seeing how we did a head count last year and at that time there were 308,745,538 people in America, with your margin of error being 58,745,548 I'm disinclined to view your analysis with real interest. But I hope by highlighting those inaccuracies that you will take another look.

The same year as the census 80,031 forcible rapes were reported, discarding the roughly 8% of rapes that are acknowledge as a consistent trend by the FBI as they may already be accounted for (double checked they are) and applying the statistic that forcible rape accounts for 93% of all rapes and allowing for the worst possible case that 95% of all rapes are not reported. A figure of 1 million would not be out of reach. I however doubt that a survey by the CDC tha returned a result that nearly 1 million women reported being raped in the one year prior to being surveyed is correct. As the CDC would have had to reach EVERY one of those women, the chances of that happening seem astronomical. I also doubt there are 61 million rape victims in the US. I DON'T doubt that rape is under reported and that it happens more than I probably think it does. I'm willing on the out side to say it's under reported by one half, double the known incidences to about 200,000 a year and call that a believable number.

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

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Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 21:20:49

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:@Rented Tritium. Sadly, these things aren't new, but even Genghis Khan's stag party weekend never got through 50 million people!

Actually, considering they technically brought the Plague to Europe by mistake...

Reply by: Medium of Death - click to view full reply 

35006

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 21:32:45

Post by: Medium of Death

I sense that a certain poster may descend into madness and give us something familiar yet new...

blame armchair rape the victim...

Reply by: Rented Tritium - click to view full reply 

33541

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 22:44:38

Post by: Rented Tritium

AustonT wrote:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:I like to think that people on this site are pretty smart, so let's do the maths.

America = pop.250 million (roughly).

Seeing how we did a head count last year and at that time there were 308,745,538 people in America, with your margin of error being 58,745,548 I'm disinclined to view your analysis with real interest. But I hope by highlighting those inaccuracies that you will take another look.

The same year as the census 80,031 forcible rapes were reported, discarding the roughly 8% of rapes that are acknowledge as a consistent trend by the FBI as they may already be accounted for (double checked they are) and applying the statistic that forcible rape accounts for 93% of all rapes and allowing for the worst possible case that 95% of all rapes are not reported. A figure of 1 million would not be out of reach. I however doubt that a survey by the CDC tha returned a result that nearly 1 million women reported being raped in the one year prior to being surveyed is correct. As the CDC would have had to reach EVERY one of those women, the chances of that happening seem astronomical. I also doubt there are 61 million rape victims in the US. I DON'T doubt that rape is under reported and that it happens more than I probably think it does. I'm willing on the out side to say it's under reported by one half, double the known incidences to about 200,000 a year and call that a believable number.

Unfortunately, even that data isn't really believable either, since the FBI was using an antiquated rape definition until just this year. The FBI was only EVER counting forcible rapes, so the number of non-forcible rapes isn't actually known for a good amount of time.

With all the agendas involved, we've really never gotten reliable numbers on this, so comparing over time is extremely difficult.

Reply by: Do_I_Not_Like_That - click to view full reply 

27051

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 22:52:17

Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That

Ok, so I was out by 50 million, but the idea that almost 40% of the pop. has either been raped or carried out a rape...well, if people believe that then there's a bridge I've got for sale.

If somebody had said that there are more guns than people in USA...I could believe that. America might be the land of Bob Dole, and Sarah Palin, but I've travelled America and there was nothing to suggest that it was any better or worse than other countries. It's a great country. Heck, I seem to be more pro-american than some americans on this site, and I haven't even started drinking yet!!

Reply by: dogma - click to view full reply 

5534

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 23:00:34

Post by: dogma

Rented Tritium wrote:
Right, yes. My stupid little "sex without consent" is just so simple that it couldn't POSSIBLY be the right way to define rape. We have to require penetration and physical force etc etc etc.

I mean, how else would we properly shame the victims of the fake rapes if we don't define them properly?

If you really can't see the problems inherent in your definition of "sex without consent", then there's no point in continuing this discussion. Put simply, "sex" is not a term with a clearly defined meaning (Does it only include penetration? Does penetration "count" if it involves something other than a phallus?), and what constitutes consent, especially given the circumstances under which consent is or is not given (What constitutes a reasonable assessment of offered consent for a married couple is distinct from the same thing for two random people coming home from a bar.).

Reply by: Rented Tritium - click to view full reply 

33541

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/17 23:01:55

Post by: Rented Tritium

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Ok, so I was out by 50 million, but the idea that almost 40% of the pop. has either been raped or carried out a rape...well, if people believe that then there's a bridge I've got for sale.

You still had to make some big assumptions to get there. You assumed that all rapes and rapists were unique values, which flies in the face of everything we know about crime. That RIGHT THERE is probably enough to kill your point.

If the rapists average 2 victims each, which I don't think is an unreasonable supposition for the sake of argument, you've cut 1/4 off your number RIGHT THERE>


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rape statistics, unfortunately, are notoriously unreliable for reasons exemplified in this thread. There's no agreement over what to count and when to count it whether to include unreported rape estimates from surveys or not, etc etc.

The reporting rate is even totally unknown. We have a vague idea of it because we can survey people, but social norms shift around all the time, so the reporting rate could by wildly fluctuating and we would be hard pressed to figure out what it was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tell you what guys, I'll try for a second time to drop the male rape subject if it means we can argue about statistics, BUT if someone brings it back up again like last time, I'm GOING to argue back. Deal?

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/18 01:13:44

Post by: Melissia

dogma wrote:Does it only include penetration?
Does penetration "count" if it involves something other than a phallus?
what constitutes consent, especially given the circumstances under which consent is or is not given
What constitutes a reasonable assessment of offered consent for a married couple is distinct from the same thing for two random people coming home from a bar.

No.

Yes.

An agreement to have sexual relations at that moment which is not coerced.

No, it doesn't, because husbands can rape their wives and vice versa-- getting married does not mean you relinquish control of what's between your legs.

Reply by: halonachos - click to view full reply 

12061

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/18 01:17:45

Post by: halonachos

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:I like to think that people on this site are pretty smart, so let's do the maths.

America = pop.250 million (roughly)

The survey is estimating that 20% have been raped,abused,attacked etc by a partner = 50 million.

Let's assume for arguments sake that every victim was attacked by a different individual = 50 million

In other words, 100 million people, almost half the pop. have been raped,attacked or carried out these crimes!

Given that 30,000?? are killed by guns every year, another 20,000? are killed by cars, and some other survey on this site a few weeks ago was saying that 1 in 5 are on anti - depression medicine... I mean sweet jesus!! I refuse to believe that the nation that gave the world, Bill Hicks, Larry Hagman, Joe Frazier, John Adams, FDR, James Stewart, Martin Luther King, George Kennedy, Thomas Paine (I know he was born in the UK) etc etc has really went downhill so badly.

You forgot the part about it saying that 20% of women have been raped.

Reply by: Rented Tritium - click to view full reply 

33541

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/18 02:05:31

Post by: Rented Tritium

Melissia wrote:

dogma wrote:Does it only include penetration?
Does penetration "count" if it involves something other than a phallus?
what constitutes consent, especially given the circumstances under which consent is or is not given
What constitutes a reasonable assessment of offered consent for a married couple is distinct from the same thing for two random people coming home from a bar.

No.

Yes.

An agreement to have sexual relations at that moment which is not coerced.

No, it doesn't, because husbands can rape their wives and vice versa-- getting married does not mean you relinquish control of what's between your legs.

FIrst 3 I 100% agree.

On the last one though, I really do believe there is such a thing as assumed consent to a point. Dan Savage actually talked about this a week or two ago on his podcast. Basically I can walk up to my girlfriend and do things to her without asking that would count as rape out in public because we have an understanding of assumed consent. However, on the flip side, she can still revoke that at any time. If I come up and start doing things and she turns around and says no, I have to stop. No harm for what happened at first, but once she gives me a for real no, I've got to stop. It's my responsibility to be able to tell the difference. She can revoke that assumed consent at ANY MOMENT and I have to honor that. And abusing that is absolutely still rape.

Reply by: AustonT - click to view full reply 

29110

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/18 14:27:17

Post by: AustonT

So basically you are saying rape is not:

-doing things like telling you lies, making promises about the future they knew were untrue, threatening to end your relationship, or threatening to spread rumors about you?

-wearing you down by repeatedly asking for sex, or showing they were unhappy?

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/18 14:30:04

Post by: Melissia

AustonT wrote:So basically you are saying rape is

Threatening someone is a form of coercion. It does not have to be a threat of force or violence.

Reply by: AustonT - click to view full reply 

29110

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/18 14:39:37

Post by: AustonT

Melissia wrote:

AustonT wrote:So basically you are saying rape is

Threatening someone is a form of coercion. It does not have to be a threat of force or violence.

First of all I asked a pretty specific question. Edit: decided not to be a tool

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/18 15:04:50

Post by: Melissia

And I answered it with a non-specific answer which applies to your question

Reply by: AustonT - click to view full reply 

29110

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/18 15:21:33

Post by: AustonT

Yes and why don't you provide a definition of coercion to go with it so I don't have to use this silly "dictionary" any more.

The questions I provided were form the questionnaire referenced in the OP and definitely don't demonstrate any from of coercion.

Given questions like that counting as "rape" it seems little surprise that their numbers are heavily inflated. Since I somehow doubt that in 24.7 minutes the survey takers were able to open up a channel to their respondents deep emotionally scarring events.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/18 15:27:23

Post by: Melissia

AustonT wrote:The questions I provided were form the questionnaire referenced in the OP and definitely don't demonstrate any from of coercion.

If you think this:

AustonT wrote:threatening to end your relationship, or threatening to spread rumors about you?

Isn't coercion, you have a weird definition of coercion.

Coercion is forcing another to behave involuntarily through threats, intimidation, and other kinds of pressures or force. This includes psychological threats.

As an aside:

Yes and why don't you provide a definition of coercion to go with it so I don't have to use this silly "dictionary" any more.

If you were using a dictionary you might have seen where I'm coming from (as I've pulled these phrases directly out of a few dictionaries practically verbatim), so this statement is obviously pointless as you weren't using one to begin with.

Reply by: halonachos - click to view full reply 

12061

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/18 15:44:46

Post by: halonachos

Black-mail is coercion.

Reply by: dogma - click to view full reply 

5534

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/18 16:41:19

Post by: dogma

Melissia wrote:
No, it doesn't, because husbands can rape their wives and vice versa-- getting married does not mean you relinquish control of what's between your legs.

I'm not saying that its impossible to rape someone you are involved with, it certainly is. I'm saying that what constitutes the provision of consent is different where the relationship is different.

Remember, consent doesn't mean the absence of objection, but I think it begins to approach that where a romantic relationship exists. Perhaps not regarding rape, but certainly regarding sexual assault in general. Grabbing a random stranger's ass is very different from the same action performed on a significant other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

dogma wrote:Does it only include penetration?

No.

So, essentially, you want to erase the distinction between sexual assault and rape?

Reply by: Mannahnin - click to view full reply 

963

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/18 16:48:30

Post by: Mannahnin

AustonT wrote:Given questions like that counting as "rape" it seems little surprise that their numbers are heavily inflated. Since I somehow doubt that in 24.7 minutes the survey takers were able to open up a channel to their respondents deep emotionally scarring events.

Please be sure to draw a distinction between the survey brought up in this thread and the more esoteric and grey area of the borderline distinctions Melissia's getting into. Sebster originally raised the same objection you just have, as regards excessively-broad definitions of rape. Then he read the article/survey, and realized that's not an issue with this one. I agree that some definitions of rape are overly-broad and do risk weakening the word. But those aren't what this survey is talking about.

Sebster, on page 3 of this thread wrote:EDIT - and finally the PDF is working for me. It's an interesting read, and just to pick out the part on rape, they actually do give a very specific, sensible breakdown on what they consider rape;
"any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent"

Within that, you see the following breakdown of what women have reported;

Completed forced penetration - 12.3% of women or 14,617,000 in the US
Attempted forced penetration - 5.2% of women or 6,199,000 in the US
Completed alcohol/drug facilitated penetration - 8.0% or 9,524,000 in the US


I take it all back, their definition is sound and their conclusions are seriously frightening.

Reply by: Rented Tritium - click to view full reply 

33541

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/18 18:17:11

Post by: Rented Tritium

dogma wrote:
So, essentially, you want to erase the distinction between sexual assault and rape?

In most states, there is no distinction. "Sexual assault" is just legal speak for rape.

Reply by: Kilkrazy - click to view full reply 

299

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/18 18:20:25

Post by: Kilkrazy

Perhaps there was a distinction in the methodology of the survey.

That is what we need to be looking at.

Reply by: Rented Tritium - click to view full reply 

33541

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/18 18:22:32

Post by: Rented Tritium

Kilkrazy wrote:Perhaps there was a distinction in the methodology of the survey.

That is what we need to be looking at.

The methodology of the survey was posted 2 posts ago.

Reply by: Kilkrazy - click to view full reply 

299

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/18 18:23:48

Post by: Kilkrazy

Yes, but you do not seem to be clear on it.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/18 19:58:47

Post by: Melissia

dogma wrote:So, essentially, you want to erase the distinction between sexual assault and rape?

If you want to claim that t he only way you can be raped or sexually assaulted is by being penetrated, then I would argue you have a highly sexist, heteronormative view of sex which you need to rethink.

Reply by: dogma - click to view full reply 

5534

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/18 20:15:37

Post by: dogma

Rented Tritium wrote:
In most states, there is no distinction. "Sexual assault" is just legal speak for rape.

While that's true, its not strictly illustrative. Sexual assault is usually classified according to degree, with rape being 1st or 2nd degree sexual assault (the division is the use of a weapon, or the causing of bodily harm).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:If you want to claim that t he only way you can be raped or sexually assaulted is by being penetrated, then I would argue you have a highly sexist, heteronormative view of sex which you need to rethink.

I would say the same thing about you, since you seem to be implying that penetration requires a phallus.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/18 20:25:24

Post by: Melissia

dogma wrote:I would say the same thing about you, since you seem to be implying that penetration requires a phallus.

I'm not saying that at all.

Reply by: Frazzled - click to view full reply 

221

Staggering statistic from the USA.. @ 2011/12/19 02:38:30

Post by: Frazzled

Relapse wrote:I never thought I'd ever be laughing so hard about such a serious subject, but damn, people, these last few posts have gotten me to the point where I can barely breath!
Starting with Matty's posts and everyone getting worked up by it to Joey insinuating he's out to rape him a Royal Marine To teach him a lesson, followed by Machete and the Weiner.... Not to mention strap on wearing female rapists roaming the country side as presented by Melissa.
All I can say is in before lock!

This thread has been excellent.