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2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/20 09:14:41


Post by: jy2


This is game #2 of our double-header between me and SabrX. The first game we played was a serious game between my competitive Wraithwing-Scarab-farm Necrons against his competitive FNP Blood Angels army (battle report here). The second game was more of a just-for-fun experimental game.

A while back, Tim (SabrX) and I were talking about what could kill Draigowing. At that time, I had just played against his FNP Blood Angels and my paladins went through his 20 FNP assault terminators like a hot knife through butter (battle report here). He then came up with the idea that his 30 fire dragon mechdar list could probably do it....not only beat my Draigowing, but dominate them. Fast forward 2 months later and now he finally gets a chance to test out his hypothesis.

Dark Eldar Venom-spam vs Tyranids
Space Wolves Long-fang Razor-spam vs Dark Eldar
Grey Knight Crowe-Purifiers vs Horde Orks
Dual-lash Chaos vs any foot list without psychic defense
Necron Scarab-farm vs mechanized lists
Grey Knight Interceptor-spam vs Daemons

Will Draigowing-vs-mechdar rank up there with the other David-vs-Goliath matchups? We shall see.


For my Draigowing list, this will be the first time I'm using my stormraven in a normal game (I've only used it once before in a game of Apoc). Basically, I swapped out my dreadknight in order to fit in the stormraven. Otherwise, I brought a pretty standard Draigowing army.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


2000 Draigowing vs Fire Dragon Mechdar


2K Grey Knights (My list)

Draigo
Librarian - Might of Titan, Sanctuary, Shrouding

10x Paladins - 4x Psycannons (2x MC), 2x MC-Hammer, Banner, Stave
5x Paladins - 2x Psycannons, Stave
1x Soladin

Stormraven

Psyfleman Dread
Psyfleman Dread


2K Eldar

Eldrad

10x Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent - Shuricannons, Spirit Stones
10x Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent - Shuricannons, Spirit Stones
10x Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent - Shuricannons, Spirit Stones

5x Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent - Eldar Missile Launcher, Spirit Stones, Star Engines
5x Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent - Eldar Missile Launcher, Spirit Stones
5x Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent - Eldar Missile Launcher, Spirit Stones

Fire Prism
Fire Prism
Fire Prism


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Mission: Capture & Control

Deployment: Dawn of War

Initiative: Grey Knights


Map of terrain:



-------------------------------------------------------------------


I'm pretty sure my paladin's winning streak is over, unless I can pull off an improbable draw. Is there any ways in which I can pull off an upset, or is this perhaps the ultimate anti-paladin list?

Battle report will be out after I finish the Necron-BA batrep.




2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/20 10:10:50


Post by: Zid


Very good matchup for the 'Dar.

Another great matchup vs GK draigowing; Psyker Battle squad. Blast the pallys with weaken resolve, charge them with chimeras, watch them run off the table.


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/20 15:07:17


Post by: BladeWalker


30 Firedragons wrecked my Paladin list with relative ease, if you can't pop Eldrad you are in trouble.


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/21 17:55:11


Post by: DevianID


I think the libby will help immensly. 10 dragons hit 7, wound 6 times lets say. With 4+ cover, 3 die. Now, some will go on draigo, shrouding may help, and you could stop guide/doom with hood. Either way, draigo and libby should live to charge and kill a 10 man squad each. If just 1 paladin lives then he could probably take a 10 man squad too. Or, every save may fail and you could lose 16 pallys at once.

Cant wait!


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/21 18:57:15


Post by: junk


Wow that's a lot of fire dragons! Definitely a tough match up for the ID-able paladins, but each fd squad will get 1 shot on the pallies if they're lucky, and none if they're not. Jy2, where's the Dreadknight!?

16 Paladins is a beast for any army to deal with, but with only 1 stormraven, it's a lot of foot slogging against a very mobile army. C&C is nearly as good for GK as KP would have been, depending on how long that storm raven stays alive. Likewise, how well the serpents withstand the handful of autocannon shots will make a difference as well.

Grey knights having the choice of initiative makes me think that Jy2 is going to take this one.







2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/21 19:06:01


Post by: Vasara


Those 30 Dragons are going to kill 11 Paladins on alpha srike if you caught them in open and with out Draigo. Librarian, Draigo and Cover reduses the number signifigantly. I don't expect those dragons to get to fire more than one round each since they have to be within charge range to get those shots.


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/21 19:15:38


Post by: Dash2021


I'm looking forward to this one, cause this is something along the lines I've been theory crafting to take on draigo wing. My only issue with Saber's list is not having star engines on the serpents. I know points are tight, but being able to pop the paladins AND prevent the assault the next turn would just be nasty (sure you can shoot back, but only at one squad. And lets face it, shooting is not the threat Saber's FD's should be concerned about). Plus, do you really need that 10th FD in each squad? 9 is probably more than enough (particularly if you box out the assault and get to shoot again). Could just be a personal pref. on the generals part though, so not going to make a mountain out of that mole hill.

if you can't pop Eldrad you are in trouble.


This. Plus just having Eldrad (read: runes of Warding) means jy2's gona risk "perils-all-over-myself" syndrome.

A little sad to see the Draigo wing list tailored to taking on the Eldar list. The storm raven completely alters the list's abilities. That being said it's not a huge diff. or departure from a standard list, so no biggie.

Really looking forward to the pointy-eared domination!


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/21 19:21:56


Post by: Valkyrie


Wow, three batreps in as many days! I'm voting for the Mechdar in this one, as 30 S8 ID'ing shots per turn, even the Paladins can't survive that for long. He's also dramatically more manuveurable than you, giving him extra reach for the objectives, regardless of where they are placed, and the Fire Prisms could cause havock amongst the Psyflemen, especially when linked, as having two out of LoS and the remaining one as the firer when linked, the S10 Ap1 Blast is going to hurt.


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/21 21:46:31


Post by: jy2


Wow. I'm surprised to see that about 30% of the pollers have confidence that my Draigowing can take this one. That's probably more confidence than I have in myself. Lol.


--------------------------------------------------------------


PRE-GAME ANALYSIS:
Ok, let's take a look at some best-case and worst-case situations. Assume my paladins (with Draigo and Librarian) will be getting cover.


BEST-CASE SCENARIO
My hood blocks all of Eldrad's attempts to Guide his units and Doom mine. I successfully cast Shrouding for 3+ cover.

So 30 fire dragons fire at my 12-man paladinstar unit.

30 shots x 2/3 hits x 5/6 wounds x 1/3 penetrate cover = 5.55 wounds, or 6 wounds. Draigo takes 1W and 5 paladins die.


WORST-CASE SCENARIO
I fail to block any of Eldrad's powers so 2 units get Guided and my squad gets Doomed. I peril and fail trying to cast Shrouding.

First off, the 2 guided units shoot:

20 shots x 8/9 re-rolled hits x 35/36 re-rolled wounds x1/2 penetrate cover = 8.64 wounds

Then, the unguided unit:

10 shots x 2/3 hits x 35/36 re-rolled wounds x1/2 penetrate cover = 3.24 wounds

So a total of 3.24+8.64 = 12 wounds taken. Basically, almost the whole squad is wiped out except Draigo.


And that's only 1 turn of firing! If there are any survivors, I may be able to kill off 1 squad, or 2 at most. There will still be another 1-2 squads to try to finish off my paladins next turn.


--------------------------------------------------------------


And then there's the fact that he has 9 fast skimmers that can try to tankshock my paladins if he wanted to. Statistically, with LD10, I should fail 1 out of every 6 LD tests. So this is another strategy my opponent may employ. There are some risks to it, but just 1 successful tank shock would mean my 1100pt+ unit would most likely be out of play.

Finally, in C&C, he can just contest my objective with numerous skimmers at the end while saving some to protect his. He's got much better mobility than me.

Overall, with just a rough guessimation, I think my chances of winning in this scenario is 10%, my chances to draw is 20% and his chances to win is 50% and his ability to table me is 20%.


--------------------------------------------------------------


Deployment:

Map of the terrain.


I deploy right in the center of the map, slightly spread out in terrain. My objective is right smack-dab in the middle of the map.


SabrX deploys Eldrad with dire avengers in the star-engined wave serpent. His objective is way in his corner.


For my Grand Strategy, I take Scouts and move my terminators back.

And then I make a huge mistake. I forgot about my Turn 1!

But SabrX was kind enough to let me go second so for this battle, assume he stole the initiative.


--------------------------------------------------------------


Eldar 1

His whole army comes in. The front 3 serpents (with fire dragons) move flat-out. The middle-rear 3 are the fire prisms. Eldrad's serpent drops off the dire avengers near his objective and then move flat-out.

1 fire prism sees my paladins and fire its S9 blast but I pass my cover save plus Draigo's invuln.


Draigowing 1

Stormraven and 2 dreads come in. Soladin stays in reserves. Stormraven moves flat-out.


Paladins advance. My plan is to multi-charge with Might of Ancients.


16 psycannon shots, of which 8 are master-crafted, only manage to shake 1 fire dragon serpent. Stormraven's Power of the Machine Spirited (PotMS) twin-linked multi-melta fails to penetrate the serpent's hull, and both dreadnoughts fail to see in the dark.

On top of all that, paladins try to assault but roll for difficult terrain.


Eldar 2
Eldrad successfully guides both units of fire dragons, but I hood his attempt to doom my paladins.


I catch a bit of a break here. Right serpent disembarks their fire dragons and then moves flat-out to tankshock my paladins. I choose to Death-&-Glory. Needing 5's to penetrate, I only roll a 4 to glance. Now I need to roll a 6 or I lose my hammerdin. I then proceed to roll a ! Since he moved flat-out, his immobilized serpent becomes a wreck.


I catch another break here. He disembarks his 2nd squad of dire avengers and torpedoes his wave serpent about 20"+ at my raven. Hurling his S10 skimmer at mine (and I can't avoid it), he then rolls a and fails to penetrate my armor. In return, I wreck his 2nd serpent!


Middle serpent moves flat-out and tankshocks me. Luckily, I pass morale.


The rest of his serpents shuffle around.


He disembarks the rest of his fire dragons.

Time for some pain as we go onto Shooting!


Fire Prism and eldar missile launchers only manage to stun my raven.


Miraculously, my librarian manages to cast Shrouding for the 3+ cover. Even more miraculously, after 20 twin-linked and 10 normal melta shots, I only lose 3 paladins and Draigo takes 1W.


Draigowing 2

Payback time. Draigo splits off from the squad. He goes one way, and the unit goes the other.


Psyflemans shoot poorly. Despite no cover, I only manage to stun 1 prism with 8 TL S8 shots.

BTW, stormraven perils while trying to cast Fortitude and re-stuns itself. It does pop smoke though.


Charge!


Paladins wipe out 1 unit of fragons (I like that term ). Draigo rolls poorly in assault and only kills 2. They stay locked.


Eldar 3

Eldrad successfully dooms Draigo. My librarian blocks his attempts to guide his fire dragons.


Eldar skimmers shuffle around. Fire dragons get back into their skimmer and he moves flat-out back towards his objective.

Note - I realize that we played this wrong, as the skimmer cannot move flat-out after a unit embarks or disembarks from it. We just forgot about that rule in the heat of the battle.

Anyways, my opponent has changed his strategy. Now, instead of trying to kill my paladins (who are in cover), he is trying to defend his objective while using his skimmers to contest mine.


1 skimmer goes to contest, tankshocking my paladins in the process (I believe it went flat-out). I pass my morale check.

His shooting manages to immobilize my stormraven.


In assault, Draigo kills 4 dragons and breaks the unit. He then consolidates forwards.


Draigowing 3

Soladin comes in and scatters back a little. Dreadnoughts advance.


Both Draigo and paladins advance.


Paladins fire their psycannons at the frickin, no, I meant fragon serpent. Just 2 are in range to shoot, but that is enough to wreck it. Fragons spill out and get pinned.

5-man paladin unit disembarks from the stormraven.


Shooting from 5-man paladin unit and psyflemans stun both fire prisms as well as immobilize the front prism.

I also wreck the 3rd fire prism (near his objective).


Draigo then assaults the immobilized prism. He fails to cast Hammerhand and then fails to damage it.


Eldar 4

Serpent moves flat-out again. Paladins pass morale on a 10 from the tankshock (good thing I didn't split up my librarian). Fire dragons keep on falling back.


Dire avengers disembark from their transport.


Serpent then moves flat-out to tankshock my paladins and ram my raven. Paladins pass morale. Unfortunately for my opponent, he rolls a for his dangerous terrain test (landed on the wrecked serpent), thereby wrecking yet another wave serpent.

Wow! 3 attempts to tankshock and/or ram my units end up with 3 of his own vehicles wrecked! Man, I feel for him.


On the bright side, his dragons who are falling back shoot at my paladins and kill 3 (I fail to cast Shrouding this time). I pass morale.

In assault, Draigo, who is still in base-to-base with his immobilized prism, wrecks the skimmer.


Draigowing 4

Grey Knight movement.


Draigo and 5-man paladin unit closes in on his objective.


Paladins shoot and wipe out 1 unit of 5 dire avengers.


Other paladins shoot at his pinned fragons but only kill 1.


Draigo assaults the last prism. I believe I successfully cast Hammerhand. Because it was stunned last turn, Draigo wrecks it.


Eldar 5

Overview of the top of Turn 5.

This will be the last game turn as we are out of time.

This is also where my camera dies and so we had to change cameras.


His 2 last remaining skimmers (1 with Eldrad in it) go to contest my objective.


Other unit of dire avengers go to screen out his avengers on his objective. Fire dragons move on top of the wreck to try to shoot down my paladins. Unfortunately, he only rolls a 3 for the difficult terrain test and only a couple will be able to see and shoot my paladins.

Paladins pass cover against his fire dragons (only 2-3 could shoot, the rest did not have LOS).

His other unit of fire dragons shoot at Draigo. Draigo passes all his invulns.

His screening avengers run towards my paladins but only get 1".


Draigowing 5
Right now, he is winning. If I can contest his objective or wreck both prisms (and prevent Eldrad from contesting), I will get the draw. If I can do both - wreck both serpents and contest his objective - then I will win.


Paladins advance.

Note - this photo actually took place on my Turn 5, but I showed it on my opponent's Turn 4 to show his movement and also the position of his guys relative to his objective.


Dreads, soladin and paladins converge onto his serpents.



Overview of the bottom of Turn 5 after my movement.


Paladins shoot and wreck Eldrad's serpent, forcing Eldrad to disembark away from the objective (and out of contesting range).

However, 8 psyfleman tl-autocannon shots and the tl-multi-melta and tl-lascannon from my stormraven only manages to wreck 1 gun. His serpent made all but 1 cover save!

So the only thing that I could do is to assault and pray for 1 last miracle. Both dreads and soladin charge. Soladin perils while trying to cast Hammerhand. He doesn't do anything.

So it's up to my dreads. Needing 6's to hit and 5-6's to pen with only 3 attacks each.....


....my dread blows it up!!!


Paladins assault the screening dire avenger unit.


I wipe them out and consolidate into contesting range.

With that we end the game as we had to leave.


--------------------------------------------------------------



Grey Knights are contesting the eldar objective.


And claiming their own.



Victory to the Grey Knights!!!




2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/21 21:58:17


Post by: rigeld2


Jy, normally I give it to you.... but I think this is the big effing rock to the draigowing hammer.


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/21 22:02:51


Post by: jy2


Zid wrote:Very good matchup for the 'Dar.

Another great matchup vs GK draigowing; Psyker Battle squad. Blast the pallys with weaken resolve, charge them with chimeras, watch them run off the table.

While I wouldn't say PBS is great against Draigowing, they do help somewhat. Mainly, they just need vendettas, demolishers and meltavets. The PBS is just icing on the cake.


BladeWalker wrote:30 Firedragons wrecked my Paladin list with relative ease, if you can't pop Eldrad you are in trouble.

I'm going to say that Eldrad will have a good chance of living. My main concern would be to pop those serpents with the fire dragons in them. Then I need to pop his other skimmers to prevent them from contesting. Stopping his mobility is paramount (or killing his troops). I'll let Easy 'E live this time.


DevianID wrote:I think the libby will help immensly. 10 dragons hit 7, wound 6 times lets say. With 4+ cover, 3 die. Now, some will go on draigo, shrouding may help, and you could stop guide/doom with hood. Either way, draigo and libby should live to charge and kill a 10 man squad each. If just 1 paladin lives then he could probably take a 10 man squad too. Or, every save may fail and you could lose 16 pallys at once.

Cant wait!

What will be key for me is if I can overcome Runes of Warding to be able to cast Shrouding and perhaps Might of Titans. If I can't, it'll be over real fast. If I can, I have a fighting chance.


sirisaacnuton wrote:
Zid wrote:Another great matchup vs GK draigowing; Psyker Battle squad. Blast the pallys with weaken resolve, charge them with chimeras, watch them run off the table.

Only if you can get rid of the Dreads first. The PBS would have a pretty hard time fighting through Reinforced Aegis. Of course, if anyone should be able to get rid of the Dreads in short order, it's Guard. Still definitely easier than trying to kill them all the old-fashioned way.

Agreed 100%.


junk wrote:Wow that's a lot of fire dragons! Definitely a tough match up for the ID-able paladins, but each fd squad will get 1 shot on the pallies if they're lucky, and none if they're not. Jy2, where's the Dreadknight!?

16 Paladins is a beast for any army to deal with, but with only 1 stormraven, it's a lot of foot slogging against a very mobile army. C&C is nearly as good for GK as KP would have been, depending on how long that storm raven stays alive. Likewise, how well the serpents withstand the handful of autocannon shots will make a difference as well.

Grey knights having the choice of initiative makes me think that Jy2 is going to take this one.

Swapped out the dreadknight for a raven. I needed some more mobility for this game. This is also to let me test out my stormraven which I will be using for the very 1st time in regular gaming (I used it one other time in Apoc).

The tactic is that my paladinstar will attract eldar attention while my 5-man paladin unit in raven will go in for the kill. Will it work? I'll find out soon enough.

I estimate that I may kill at most 1 serpent each turn with my 2 psyflemans....that is, if they don't get shot down first.


Vasara wrote:Those 30 Dragons are going to kill 11 Paladins on alpha srike if you caught them in open and with out Draigo. Librarian, Draigo and Cover reduses the number signifigantly. I don't expect those dragons to get to fire more than one round each since they have to be within charge range to get those shots.

Actually, they should be able to if SabrX plays it right.

He needs to use his serpents as a screen and disembark his dragons behind the wave serpent wall. Then he would be able to fire and I wouldn't be able to assault them without going through his transports first. If he does this, then my only recourse would be to shoot down his serpent walls with my psyflemans to create a path to his firedragons.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dash2021 wrote:I'm looking forward to this one, cause this is something along the lines I've been theory crafting to take on draigo wing. My only issue with Saber's list is not having star engines on the serpents. I know points are tight, but being able to pop the paladins AND prevent the assault the next turn would just be nasty (sure you can shoot back, but only at one squad. And lets face it, shooting is not the threat Saber's FD's should be concerned about). Plus, do you really need that 10th FD in each squad? 9 is probably more than enough (particularly if you box out the assault and get to shoot again). Could just be a personal pref. on the generals part though, so not going to make a mountain out of that mole hill.

SabrX went for more skimmers over upgrades. It adds up fast when trying to fit that many skimmers, Eldrad and 30 fire dragons.

if you can't pop Eldrad you are in trouble.


This. Plus just having Eldrad (read: runes of Warding) means jy2's gona risk "perils-all-over-myself" syndrome.

Eldrad and RoW has always been a bane to almost every army I've played (space wolves, tyranids, grey knights). I think my chances for survival will live and die with Runes, but I really can't afford to spend the resources to kill the hard-to-kill character, at least not until I've taken care of the fire dragons.


A little sad to see the Draigo wing list tailored to taking on the Eldar list. The storm raven completely alters the list's abilities. That being said it's not a huge diff. or departure from a standard list, so no biggie.

Really looking forward to the pointy-eared domination!

Tailoring? You think this list is tailored to take on eldar? Try this Draigowing:

Draigo
Librarian - Might, Shrouding

Psyfleman Vendread

10x Paladins - 4x Psycannons
Soladin

Stormraven
Stormraven

Psyfleman
Psyfleman
Psyfleman


Just because I took 1 stormraven doesn't mean I am tailoring anything. Stormravens and dreadknights are both common in Draigowing builds. That is because they complement a slow-moving army well with their mobility. Would a tailored Draigowing list have staves and banners in their units against MSU-squads?



2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/22 09:53:23


Post by: tetsuo666


jy2 wrote:
BEST-CASE SCENARIO
My hood blocks all of Eldrad's attempts to Guide his units and Doom mine. I successfully cast Shrouding for 3+ cover.


What is this cast to have 3+ cover ??


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/22 10:11:30


Post by: Warboss Gutrip



A little sad to see the Draigo wing list tailored to taking on the Eldar list. The storm raven completely alters the list's abilities. That being said it's not a huge diff. or departure from a standard list, so no biggie.

Really looking forward to the pointy-eared domination!


... seriously? Tailored? If anything, that Eldar list is tailored to kill of Draigowing. Units of 10 Firedragons are massive overkill on every single tank that isn't a superheavy, they're completely excessive in most matchups aside from soaking up extra wounds. Against Pallies and MCs however, they come into their own.

Looks to be a good game, but I voted that Eldar massacre Draigowing

Eldrad is a complete troll for GKs.


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/22 10:53:30


Post by: Chaos Lord Gir


Warboss Gutrip wrote:
Eldrad is a complete troll for any army.


Fixed that for you

Also my money is on the Eldar, but Im voting for the GK's. Being British means I have a unnatural desire to see the under dog pull through!


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/22 14:26:22


Post by: Ravenous D


Tank shock, that is all.

It is the bane of Draigowing.


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/22 14:31:43


Post by: labmouse42


Ravenous D wrote:Tank shock, that is all.

It is the bane of Draigowing.
9 tank shocks a turn is a big problem for Draigowing


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/22 14:33:45


Post by: Warboss Gutrip


Chaos Lord Gir wrote:
Warboss Gutrip wrote:
Eldrad is a complete troll for any army.


Fixed that for you

Also my money is on the Eldar, but Im voting for the GK's. Being British means I have a unnatural desire to see the under dog pull through!


Don't even get me started...

Just two days ago, I observed as Eldrad tarpitted three thunderwolves with thunder hammers and storm sheilds and a Wolf Lord on a thunderwolf with a thunder hammer and stormsheild, for 8 rounds of combat, killing all of the thunderwolves and reducing the Lord to one wound. In his defence though, the thunderwolf unit had already taken two wounds...

But seriously, Eldrad didn't even take a single wound... what a dick. I love him though: it meant my Tyranids didn't have to play SW in the next round

*Edit*

Something has gone deeply wrong with the quoting...


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/22 14:52:41


Post by: Ravenous D


labmouse42 wrote:
Ravenous D wrote:Tank shock, that is all.

It is the bane of Draigowing.
9 tank shocks a turn is a big problem for Draigowing


Any tank shock is bad for Draigowing, every time I heard "tank shock" it usually meant my 1200pt unit was running.


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/22 17:08:23


Post by: jy2




Turn 1 is up. So far, I've survived 2 tankshocks.




2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/22 17:35:21


Post by: Avatar 720


Well, first off he can guide Fragons if he's with them in the transport, but can't guide any others if they're in a different one.

Secondly, he couldn't disembark a unit and then move Flat Out.

Apart from that, watching with interest


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/22 17:51:56


Post by: Iranna


Avatar 720 wrote:Well, first off he can guide Fragons if he's with them in the transport, but can't guide any others if they're in a different one.

Secondly, he couldn't disembark a unit and then move Flat Out.

Apart from that, watching with interest


I move to suggest we get the term "Fragon" copyrighted, I can't stop laughing.

Iranna.


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/22 17:52:10


Post by: Raxmei


It looks like you opponent needs to reread the rules for transport vehicles.
His whole army comes in. The front 3 serpents (with fire dragons) move flat-out. The middle-rear 3 are the fire prisms. Eldrad's serpent drops off the dire avengers near his objective and then move flat-out.
There are two reasons why that doesn't work. First, you can't move a transport, disembark, then move again. Second, you can't disembark troops on the same turn that you move flat out. The point later on where a squad disembarks from a serpent which then goes on to move flat out to ram is also disallowed.


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/22 17:56:08


Post by: Draigo


Well technically gk cant use might of ancients either. Might of Titan sure..


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/22 17:57:22


Post by: copper.talos


You can't disembark and move flat out!


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/22 19:22:57


Post by: darkcloud92


wow looking at that the end of Eldar movement phase things looks pretty grim for the grey knights at the moment, can't wait to see the shooting phase So far good luck versus bad luck seems to be pretty even
I could never bet against grey knights though, for the emperor!


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/22 19:42:37


Post by: Clay Williams


copper.talos wrote:You can't disembark and move flat out!


Did you read any of the other posts?

Man I have no clue how you are going to pull this one out. Looks pretty grim for the paladins.


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 00:21:13


Post by: Aldarionn


As others have pointed out, the Eldar player is making some big mistakes that are ultimately going to cost you. Here are the specifics of why:

Eldrad can cast 3 powers per turn, 2 of which can be the same power per his staff. That said, he may NOT cast a power on an embarked unit unless he is inside the transport attached to that unit. Additionally, all of those psychic powers are cast at the beginning of the turn, before anything moves, so your opponent may not cast Guide or Fortune on any of his tanks that arrive turn 1 via Dawn of War, nor may he disembark units, then cast powers on them on any normal turn. For Eldrad to Guide both units, they must be on foot at the beginning of their turn and within 6" of him or the vehicle he is embarked on, and within his Line of Sight.

Additionally, as others have pointed out, your opponent could not have moved onto the board, dropped off Eldrad, then moved again with the vehicle. Units move one at a time, and you must complete their entire move before moving on to the next unit. This means that when he moves his transports onto the board from reserve on the first turn, as soon as he finishes moving the vehicle and decides to disembark his units, the vehicle can move no further. On normal turns, your opponent may not disembark from a transport and then move flat-out with that transport. He could have rammed the Stormraven if it was within 12", but not if it was further away than that.

It sounds like your opponent needs to re-read the basic 5th edition rules regarding some of these issues. They are fairly common mistakes amongst beginner Eldar players (I made many of them myself when I came back to the game at the start of 5th edition playing Eldar) and you should be aware of them and not be afraid to call your opponent out on them. They make it significantly more difficult to play Mech Eldar effectively, but it's necessary to know they are there.


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 00:26:43


Post by: Avatar 720


and within his Line of Sight


Guide doesn't require LoS to the target unit.


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 00:36:51


Post by: Aldarionn


Avatar 720 wrote:
and within his Line of Sight


Guide doesn't require LoS to the target unit.

Yeah you're right, hence the reason he can cast it from inside a transport without fire points. Man it's been a long time since I've played my Eldar!


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 01:48:43


Post by: IG88


I'm sure JY2 is going to catch some crazy break like he will pass shrouding and get the 3++ or just make like 20 4++ saves and proceed to wipe out the eldar the next turn, this is starting to be like watching the same old delta force movie where chuck norris just kicks the crap out of everyone. Will the Paladins win!!!?? Does Chuck Norris usually roundhouse his enemy!!??? Watch and find out!!

While your having fun doing the Grey knight (most overpowered easy to run army in the game) battles I'd like to see one where you go up against a full Khornate daemon army with a couple blocks of 2++ save fleshhounds to tar pit the palies, could be a good watch.


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 02:15:11


Post by: rigeld2


IG88 wrote:(most overpowered easy to run army in the game)

lolno.


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 04:23:03


Post by: Red Corsair


Wow, so many people haven't really read the report correctly. Eldrad and the DA started the game on the table, He did not move, disembark, move.

I also am surprised that he didn't use his tanks to screen his dragons for insurance, now if he flubs it all three units are toast.

In regards to the eldar list being tailored, I have to disagree, I have played against more then a couple all comers eldar lists that max dragons. Why shouldn't they at 16 points, they kill anything they want and in a mech build are much better then any other elite choice. .


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 06:30:18


Post by: Brothererekose


Red Corsair wrote:I also am surprised that he didn't use his tanks to screen his dragons for insurance, now if he flubs it all three units are toast.
With the WaveSerpents' 'flying stands' so short, isn't LoS blocked? Several guys argued so at my store at 5e's beginning, such that I used my Eldar far less, and one more reason not to use tau (as this killed FoF).


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 06:44:42


Post by: SabrX


Red Corsair wrote:Wow, so many people haven't really read the report correctly. Eldrad and the DA started the game on the table, He did not move, disembark, move.

I also am surprised that he didn't use his tanks to screen his dragons for insurance, now if he flubs it all three units are toast.


At the time, I remembered those lengthy debates about Paladin's number one weakness is losing moral, which could be be triggered from tank shock. I thought to myself, "what the hell? Might as well give it a shot..." Big mistake!

After losing the black Wave Serpent, it became really difficult balancing another skimmer on top of the downed wreckage and if I take another skimmer off its flight base, that's A: cheating and B: losing LOS to the Paladins. So now at this point in jy2's btrp, my Fire Dragons are left in the open.

To be continued!


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 08:26:30


Post by: Dash2021


... seriously? Tailored? If anything, that Eldar list is tailored to kill of Draigowing. Units of 10 Firedragons are massive overkill on every single tank that isn't a superheavy, they're completely excessive in most matchups aside from soaking up extra wounds. Against Pallies and MCs however, they come into their own.

Looks to be a good game, but I voted that Eldar massacre Draigowing

Eldrad is a complete troll for GKs.


Hah, took a lot of flak over the verbiage in that sentence!

To clarify: I have a very liberal definition of tailoring, as a result of playing many years with a guy who's standard practice was to look at the army you brought with you that day then choose the army he would play. Then tell you how awesome he was after he had picked your list's hard counter. It left me a little quick to jump the gun when using the phrase. I was using tailoring to mean bringing specific units not normally represented in your (the players) all comers army based on foreknowledge of your opponent.

I'm fully aware this is a much more liberal use of the word than most employ, but old practices (prejudice's?) die hard Didn't bother addressing saber's list because.....well it's the point of the battle isn't it?

Anywho, what I had intended to say with the sentence was I was disappointed to see jy2 diverge from what I assume is his all comers list. I was really eager to see how the list that has proven so successful lately (more akin to this ) fared against Fragons (stealing this word from now on) as I can't recall having seen any Fragon on Draigo action before. Theory hammer is nice, but blood is always better

SabrX went for more skimmers over upgrades. It adds up fast when trying to fit that many skimmers, Eldrad and 30 fire dragons.


Insofar as this is mostly a contest to see how many absolutely horrid Draigowing counters could be fit into one list and watch the mayhem , I'm with ya. Just felt compelled to point out stones/engines for serpents, as I believe a lot of players undervalue their usefulness.


Enough smoothing the ruffled feathers: Barring some catastrophic luck on Saber's part or divine intervention on jy2's part, Eldar should have it. Being able to hood off Doom isn't going to be nearly as useful as being able to hood guide would be. Should average to about 24 hits, with only 4 failing to wound. 20 ID wounds is gona hurt, even with a 3++. That being said, it looks like if they survive and don't break, Saber's looking at a nasty multi-assault if the gap doesn't get closed by the star engine serpent (which doesn't seem to be possible from the pic).


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 09:00:53


Post by: jy2




Battle report completed.


It is late so I will respond to posts here tomorrow. Thanks for reading!



2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 09:18:24


Post by: Zid


Wow! Rough luck! In the middle it literally came down to a few dice rolls! I really expected the Eldar to take this one! Plus all those serpents blowing themselves up, ouch!

Great rep, this was probably my fav so far!


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 09:25:08


Post by: SabrX


For all those who voted "This game was a total fluke as Draigowing ekes out the win." congrats.

This was one of those games where even with a strong list, ill luck sealed my defeat. Lady luck sure is fickle. I still can't believe I failed 3 re-rollable cover saves on Eldrad's Wave Serpent when it mattered the most...


2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 09:50:25


Post by: Blackmoor


This was quite a winnable game for the Eldar player.

Yes Paladins can be hurt by tank shocks, but they should only be used as a last resort, and the same goes for ramming. With that many fire dragons it was not necessary. It was like you were handed a rifle with a bayonet at the end and you were told that people can be killed by the bayonet, so you tried to use it forgetting that the best way to kill them is to shoot them.

The Eldar player should have:
  • Only tank shock when necessary

  • When tank shocking, only clip the unit and not fly over a hammer

  • Use Mindwar to take out the librarian (and anyone else).

  • At the end Fortune Eldrad and tarpit Draigo or Paladins.

  • Take out the GK vehicles with elder missile launchers and fire prisms.

  • A lot less ramming and more getting behind them for rear shots.



  • 2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 10:17:08


    Post by: tetsuo666


    Blackmoor wrote:This was quite a winnable game for the Eldar player.

    Yes Paladins can be hurt by tank shocks, but they should only be used as a last resort, and the same goes for ramming. With that many fire dragons it was not necessary. It was like you were handed a rifle with a bayonet at the end and you were told that people can be killed by the bayonet, so you tried to use it forgetting that the best way to kill them is to shoot them.

    The Eldar player should have:
  • Only tank shock when necessary

  • When tank shocking, only clip the unit and not fly over a hammer

  • Use Mindwar to take out the librarian (and anyone else).

  • At the end Fortune Eldrad and tarpit Draigo or Paladins.

  • Take out the GK vehicles with elder missile launchers and fire prisms.

  • A lot less ramming and more getting behind them for rear shots.



  • After reading the report i have the same feeling, the eldar player seems not to have played well.
    I think this battle need a revenge
    Despite good report a usual


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 10:47:26


    Post by: Vasara


    The fragons got their one turn on shooting. Then they were basicly out of the game. Was there no possibility to block Paladin movement with skimmers while shooting melta from cover?

    Best out of three guys? I really think the Eldar have a change in this.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 14:17:12


    Post by: DarthDiggler


    The elder made a ton of mistakes. It appears he handed the game to the GK. Why deploy the fire dragons between the GK's and your objective? So that when the surviving paladins assault, they will be closer to the elder objective?

    Eldrad and the dragons needed to deploy on the GK's right side which would have dragged the paladins farther away from the elder objective if the surviving paladins assaulted them.

    That is just one tactic. The elder could have skirted the far edges all around, kill the non-paladins, and ignored the deathstar.

    I do agree with IG88 that these things seem to end with some crazy movie marines ending. 30 fire dragons shoot, 20 twin linked and only 3 paladins die? Crazy.

    I do enjoy reading these though. I prefer the picture reports over the video ones. I notice your play group doesn't manuever to much during games. There is a lot of rush forward and attack or stand and shoot. I bet you guys have trouble against maneuver opponents at tourneys.

    Thanks for the report.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 15:06:31


    Post by: Avatar 720


    Red Corsair wrote:Wow, so many people haven't really read the report correctly. Eldrad and the DA started the game on the table, He did not move, disembark, move.


    He didn't move, disembark, move, he disembarked then moved Flat Out, which is also against the rules.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 15:54:21


    Post by: Artemo


    Interesting report, as always.

    Whilst I agree the eldar might have done a bit better, I'm not that surprised by the result, I find double-farseer mech eldar nasty opponents (not spamming dragons, mind) but even with lots of ID and good psychic defence, it's hard to eradicate paladins (and while tank shock is annoying and can sometimes run a unit of board, it's not a tactic to rely on, rather one to be aware of and use tactically - eg to try to drive more than half of a paladin squad out of cover, or to move them more than 3" from an objective).

    I think two ravens and fewer paladins would have maybe fared better (but bear in mind a raven has no smoke launchers). With two ravens I'd have cracked Eldrad's transport and mindstruck the poor fool into oblivion early doors to allow GK's free reign with their own psychic. the reason I fear double farseer rather more than Eldrad is because it's much harder to get rid of two psychics and they can guide/doom with greater likelihood of some getting through the hood.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 15:56:35


    Post by: Painnen


    if anything, i could be viewed as a poor sport when it comes to losing, but let me say this to defend myself..."If there was a way to hit a button and get x1 turn of just-the-average resaults for everything we need to roll a die for" then I wouldn't have anything to complain about.

    I felt that was worth adding to this battlerep because "the average" never seemed to occur in any part of your report. this game would have sent me over the edge if i was either player.

    i always get wrapped up in the math-hammer of things that it's nice to see that the majority of people can remove themselves from it and ENJOY a game of warhammer 40k.

    grats to both of you! crazy game that my non-WAC competitve nature would have likely got the best of me. I do think the swings kept this game competitive and therefore has taught me to hold in all the angst and let fate bring victory back to my side despite the odds.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 16:05:34


    Post by: Artemo


    The problem with relying on the probabilities (which I regard as almost essential knowledge) is that the nature of the game is such that even if you did get pretty 'average' dice, it's a relatively few rolls that can end up deciding any game. When these rolls are obvious (like rolling 3 1s on the trot as 3+ invulnerables, say) and come at a critical juncture, everyone cries 'luck!' good or bad. But really (or at least ideally one should try and cater for 'poor luck' at those critical moments, by having excess of force (or a potential excess in shooting), which most people do, but also by thinking about what might happen if things go wrong and manoeuvering accordingly.

    Of course it's not easy to do, but I think it can often make the difference when the dice seem agin you.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 16:22:36


    Post by: IG88


    ..... and what do you know, he casts shrouding even though runes of warding is up... 20 twin linked melta + 10 regs should have killed more like 6 pally's even with the 3++ and Draigo acting like his spongy self so I'm guessing rolling was a bit good. Anyway it looks like Chuck Norris does round house his enemies!! shocking!!

    On a serious note, thanks for posting the battles they are a fun if not predictable read but unfortunately SabreX plays eldar about as bad as I imagine he plays the mandolin and JY2 you really need to get up to the city of sin sometime cause with your luck i'm betting you would get rich pretty quick.

    Sabre X please split your dragons up and shoot from 3 directions next time so you get a couple volley's from two of the units in. Shield the disembarked dragons as best as you can with the umpteen serpents from the rest of his minimal threats or (What I would do) flat out everybody past the pally's, wreck everything else in his army on turn 2 ie Dreads, Stormraven and what ever else he had then use your mobility to pick the paly squad apart.

    It's simple, you had the mobile force but you let him walk right down the middle of the field and dictate/control the pace of the game.

    I'm actually crying a little after this one bring an eldar player, I award you zero points for tactical ingenuity and may Ynnead have mercy on your soul.

    Kudos for serving as Jy2's pally punching bag though, you will learn over time, it would help if you played the same army more though as its tough to learn when your playing a different force every other day.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 16:37:08


    Post by: Aldarionn


    Well after the first half of the report I can't say I didn't see that result coming. To be honest, the Eldar player made a bunch of mistakes, some of which hurt the Grey Knights and some of which hurt the Eldar. He basically dumped his units off in front of your Paladins and trusted that the dice gods WOULDN'T decide to punish him for his hubris. This, along with the mistakes that have been pointed out a bunch of times already, suggest that this guy really doesn't know how to play Eldar.

    The better play would have been to ignore the Paladins entirely in the beginning and focus on killing off the Dreadnoughts and the Stormraven, which are FAR bigger threats to the Wave Serpents. Psycannons are bad, but they need 5's to glance and Eldrad can Fortune two tanks for re-rollable cover. He could have used the Fire Prisms to harass the Paladins with S9 AP2 Pie Plates, then screen the Dragons Serpents with the Dire Avengers while advancing flat-out toward the Dreadnoughts.

    I also question that 30 Fire Dragons is necessary at all. In this list it seemed to hurt more than help. They failed to complete the task they were taken for and payed a heavy price for it, and as a result of having taken so many of them, the rest of the list was woefully ill equipped to take on a Death Star. Eldar are an army of specialists, each designed to accomplish one task, and taking a balance of specialists gives the army a cohesive presence and allows it to function as a whole. I think 3x units of 6 could have freed up enough points for more Dire Avengers or perhaps some Jetbikes, or even replacing one of the Fire Prisms with some War Walkers or a DAVU Falcon, or giving all three of them Holofields. Any of those would have given the list a more balanced feel and could have been used to destroy the rest of the Grey Knights force while running circles around Draigo and his Death Star.

    Also....I'd have Mind Warre'd the bajeezus out of that Librarian as early as humanly possible until he was a corpse. He was a huge part of the Grey Knights victory and Eldrad could have sniped him from the unit on turn 2 with a good roll.

    Anyway jy2, I don't mean to diminish your win. It was well executed and you took advantage of mistakes made by the Eldar player which is the sign of a better general and a well deserved victory. But I have to wonder what might have happened if the Eldar list were a bit more well rounded as a Mech list rather than specifically fielding so many specialist models that failed miserably to accomplish the task they were taken for.

    Edit: Should have read Blackmoore's post before I wrote mine, but I totally missed the second page lol. Regardless, he pretty much hit the nail on the head!


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 16:49:49


    Post by: Red Corsair


    Avatar 720 wrote:
    Red Corsair wrote:Wow, so many people haven't really read the report correctly. Eldrad and the DA started the game on the table, He did not move, disembark, move.


    He didn't move, disembark, move, he disembarked then moved Flat Out, which is also against the rules.


    No crap, but people were arguing that he made both mistakes.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Aldarionn wrote:

    Anyway jy2, I don't mean to diminish your win. It was well executed and you took advantage of mistakes made by the Eldar player which is the sign of a better general and a well deserved victory. But I have to wonder what might have happened if the Eldar list were a bit more well rounded as a Mech list rather than specifically fielding so many specialist models that failed miserably to accomplish the task they were taken for.

    Edit: Should have read Blackmoore's post before I wrote mine, but I totally missed the second page lol. Regardless, he pretty much hit the nail on the head!


    Well executed? he scouted back even though he had the initiative and his opponent gave him a break. Then he just walks forward and makes no real decision after that other then charge whats directly in front of him. Wow, he didn't even have to kill eldrad because SabreX turned the wave serpent the wrong way


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Brothererekose wrote:
    Red Corsair wrote:I also am surprised that he didn't use his tanks to screen his dragons for insurance, now if he flubs it all three units are toast.
    With the WaveSerpents' 'flying stands' so short, isn't LoS blocked? Several guys argued so at my store at 5e's beginning, such that I used my Eldar far less, and one more reason not to use tau (as this killed FoF).


    You can easily fire between them and deny a charge, the wings on serpents are flat and easily shot past.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 17:02:25


    Post by: Sekminara


    Great quality as always, but I have to say, SabrX played nowhere near his usual level of skill. I found myself cringing through the entire battle report, not only at Eldar's rotten luck, but also at his unbelievable tactical blunders.

    Like some posters above mentioned, here were some serious flaws in Eldars game plan.
    Why ram/tankshock everything?
    Why sacrfice your fire dragons turn 2?
    Why not use your mobility to your advantage?
    Why spend the game in the corner?
    Why run straight into 15+ pallies + Draigo?
    Why not use VoF to whittle (at least a few) them down?
    Why not kite the slow (slow slow slow) pallies across the map?
    Why not turbo-boost onto objectives last turn (although I suppose the game was too far gone by then..)
    Why not use time (turns) to your advantage?

    Eldar just didn't play like eldar. Tactics where thrown out the window in favour of...something. As a whole I would have to say that the game was unbelievably embarassing ( to read, I can't imagine how SabrX feels now that this is online) even for a friendly 'test' game.

    This is not to say that GK didn't play a magnificient game and I think congratulations are in order! You got (deep) into SabrX's head and got him to completely freeze up. I think that your objective placment and phenomenal positioning really shone this game, and ultimately earned you this unlikely victory.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 17:40:27


    Post by: jy2



    POST-GAME ANALYSIS:
    Let me first say that this game was an anomaly. I believe it really was a fluke. My dice rolls were fantastic and my opponents craptastic. The results were so extreme that it actually made it look like my opponent played worse than what he really did. He may have played the statistical averages and lost, but IMO he didn't make any risky moves that should have warranted a "Omigod, why did he do that!" type of reaction.

    And to be fair to my opponent, he has only played a handful of games with his mechdar. He's played probably about as many games with them as I have with my new necrons. He acquired this army I believe last year from a friend and it is his 4th string army - behind Tau, Battle Sisters (which is now his current 4th string army) and Blood Angels. So although he is a savvy player, he is not really a veteran eldar statesman (haha...pun intended).

    Anyways, here are some examples of my good rolling and his atrocious dice:


    - 30 melta shots, of which 20 were twin-linked, only killing 3 paladins and wounding Draigo. My saves were on fire as I must've made about 20 3+ cover saves or so.

    - My Death-&-Glory needing 6's to wreck him. I do.

    - He rams my raven with a S10 missile. Only he is wrecked and my raven doesn't even suffer a scratch.

    - Immobilizing his skimmer on terrain, thereby wrecking it because he moved flat-out, while tankshocking my paladins.

    - I killed all his tanks when it mattered. I can't believe I killed 9 skimmers with my limited shooting (and some assault)! Every time I needed, I was able to wreck his skimmers especially in the end with my dread (needing 6's to hit with only S6).

    - I passed maybe about 2/3 of all my LD10 psychic tests on 3D6.

    - I didn't fail a single morale test.

    - His last unit of fire dragons getting pinned. If that hadn't happened, they may have been able to wipe out my 5-man paladin squad out in the open.

    - As my opponent already mentioned, Eldrad's fortuned serpent failed 3 re-rollable 4+ flat-out cover saves in the end when he was contesting my objective. Also, if only I had blown it up instead of wrecking it, he could have placed Eldrad still within contesting range of the objective. Only a wrecked result would Eldrad not be able to contest and I got it.

    - His screening avengers only being able to run 1". Had they been able to run farther out, I may not have been able to contest with my 5-man paladin squad after wiping out the screening unit.


    The only gamble my opponent took was trying to tankshock my paladinstar. Normally, if they were fearless, he would've screened out his fire dragons with his serpents (that's how he plays his Battle Sisters....screen out his sisters so that they can shoot but you can't assault them). However, it was just too tempting to try to tankshock my 1100pt+ with fast vehicles. This was the only time he played against the averages and lost (the other times, he played with the statistics backing him up and lost). This "gamble" also created an opening where I could get to his fire dragons.

    Someone here mentioned that he should've avoided the paladinstar and taken out the rest of the army, but we all knew that it would come down to a showdown between his dragons and my paladins. Chasing my other units would only give me more time to shoot down his vehicles as I would've had all my units close to my paladinstar's psycannons. Don't tell me you guys wouldn't have tried to kill paladins with 30 fire dragons, of which 2/3 were guided? It's just too tempting to do as you have the law of averages on your side. It is a worthy gambit and I see the aggressive general taking advantage of it. It's just too bad lady luck was on my side for this one.

    In summary, do not take too much from this battle. It mainly shows that there is no such thing as an auto-win in 40K. Generalship and luck oftentimes can overcome list mis-matches, but do not expect the average Draigowing to do as well as I did against Fire Dragon Mechdar. This game was a exception instead of the norm.





    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 17:50:00


    Post by: SabrX


    I was unfortunate with a lot of bad dice rolls. I couldn't completely bunker all my Fire Dragons after I failed the first tank shock (hard to balance another vehicle) and jy2 passed his psychic test at a crucial moment, allowing his Paladins to have a 3+ cover save. Furthermore, I did fire a lot of Bright Lances and Fire Prisms at the Storm Raven. Despite many penetrations, my damage rolls fell short. Mean while, jy2's dice were hot. He took out vehicles left and right. I pulled back the last Fire Dragon unit to intercept jy2's 5 Paladins inside the Storm Raven, jy2 wrecked their Wave Serpent and pinned the Fire Dragons.

    Yes I'm aware I could have played more conservative such as hanging back all my skimmers, forming road blocks, and contest towards late game. Had I done that, it would have been an almost guarantee victory.

    However, I'm not a power gamer. I play to have fun. Playing conservatively by having my entire army fly around and exploiting major weaknesses such as Paladin's lack of mobility is both demoralizing for my opponent and makes an uninteresting game. Without risks there is no rewards. I like playing on the edge where both sides are evenly matched and luck will ultimately decide the outcome. Either go all in or not at all.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 18:00:47


    Post by: jy2


    @Aldarionn & Avatar 720:

    While I know we made a mistake playing the skimmers moving flat-out after a unit embarks/disembarks, care to explain about not being able to cast guide/fortune on another unit in another transport?

    I don't really see anything in the Eldar codex or FAQ that restricts it.

    Thanks.



    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 18:05:39


    Post by: Avatar 720


    Q: Can psychic powers be used on a unit embarked on
    a transport? (p50)
    A: For simplicity’s sake, the answer has to be a firm ‘No,
    unless the psyker himself is in the unit being
    transported’

    From the main 40k FAQ.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 18:08:07


    Post by: jy2


    Oh, good find. Must've been a new addition to the FAQ as I hadn't recalled seeing it the last time I looked.



    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 19:02:13


    Post by: Aldarionn


    jy2 wrote:Oh, good find. Must've been a new addition to the FAQ as I hadn't recalled seeing it the last time I looked.


    It's been there for quite a while, and it would have made a big statistical difference in this game. That said, the statistical difference favored you, and you won anyway so it barely mattered.

    The fact that your opponent has only played Eldar a short time is pretty evident from the battle report. Eldar are NOT a forgiving army, nor are they good for beginners. They have only one good "easy button" in the form of Runes of Warding, but combined with everything else, they are a very tough army to play correctly. There is no shame in losing due to that fact, however. Each game with Eldar is a learning experience, and because they are so unforgiving, your mistakes are greatly magnified so you can see what you did wrong very easily. In this case, committing the Fire Dragons that early was a poor choice in my opinion.

    Yes, ultimately it might have come down to the 30 Dragons facing off against the 1100 point Paladin Death Star, but I would DEFINITELY have done it differently and I certainly would not have made the Death Star my priority in an objective based mission when I'm fielding an army of fast skimmers. The clear priority would have been to take out the Dreadnoughts (who are much more dangerous to the tanks than the Paladins) and the Stormraven (which can contest things and has nasty weaponry), then Mind-War the Librarian to remove your 3+ cover save before jumping out for an alpha strike. I might lose models in the process, but there is such a massive mobility difference between the Paladins and the Eldar that it's a VERY bad idea NOT to capitalize on it. Your opponent's game plan was too close to how Space Marines play, and not at all how Eldar should play. Assuming average dice (because you can never count on them going one way or another as your game clearly demonstrated), it would have been much wiser to leave you with Draigo and 10 Paladins unmolested chasing Skimmers around the smoldering wreckage of your Dreadnoughts and the corpses of your Soloadins than to dive head-first into a Death Star and get eaten alive. I would feel much better about losing if I had chosen option A than losing because I chose option B.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 19:15:37


    Post by: DarthDiggler


    Don't be to hard on SabrX. He explained his reasoning in wanting to have a cinematic battle and not a dodge and weave battle. I will admit his tactics make for a more exciting game in the end and how quickly would we get bored in reading a battle report which says each turn one side hides.

    Maybe that is one of the reasons Eldar are not very popular. They require a finesse bordering on non-engagement and that can be a turn off for most players.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 19:53:27


    Post by: jy2


    It's like Kobe's Lakers against Lebron James' Heat. You know you all want to see Kobe go mano-o-mano against Lebron. Who cares about the role players.



    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 20:35:22


    Post by: Red Corsair


    Except the title of this report was how to beat Draigowing not lets just line up some eldar then laugh when they get rolled. Then lets deflect every remark with, oh well he wasn't going for tactics or statistical edge, he was playing it like a Michael Bay film.

    Honestly, if your going to title it with such bold remarks, be prepared to back up that claim, or at least answer some honest questions.

    That psychic rule and the flat out move has been out forever, so that was just poor play... It happens but immediately that changes the game where if you knew the correct ruling he couldn't have even flat out tank shocked!

    In regards to luck, a good player makes his own, example: "He flat out tank shocks my paladins, my hammer death or glories, and succeeds!" Like Blackmoore pointed out, why tank shock the hammer? He could have hit any part of your unit, even a clip, avoiding any chance you could blow it up.

    It's just frustrating to start with a bold claim, poll, several days of hype, then a broken up report only to see "cinematic game effects".... seriously, title it Draigo Norris, curb stomps the pointy ears in laughable game... I think that was the most irritating part.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 20:42:19


    Post by: Aldarionn


    Red Corsair wrote:Except the title of this report was how to beat Draigowing not lets just line up some eldar then laugh when they get rolled. Then lets deflect every remark with, oh well he wasn't going for tactics or statistical edge, he was playing it like a Michael Bay film.

    Honestly, if your going to title it with such bold remarks, be prepared to back up that claim, or at least answer some honest questions.

    That psychic rule and the flat out move has been out forever, so that was just poor play... It happens but immediately that changes the game where if you knew the correct ruling he couldn't have even flat out tank shocked!

    In regards to luck, a good player makes his own, example: "He flat out tank shocks my paladins, my hammer death or glories, and succeeds!" Like Blackmoore pointed out, why tank shock the hammer? He could have hit any part of your unit, even a clip, avoiding any chance you could blow it up.

    It's just frustrating to start with a bold claim, poll, several days of hype, then a broken up report only to see "cinematic game effects".... seriously, title it Draigo Norris, curb stomps the pointy ears in laughable game... I think that was the most irritating part.

    +1 to this post, on all accounts.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 20:45:43


    Post by: Red Corsair


    jy2 wrote:It's like Kobe's Lakers against Lebron James' Heat. You know you all want to see Kobe go mano-o-mano against Lebron. Who cares about the role players.



    Except it was Kobe and Bruce Bowen.....


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 21:12:06


    Post by: SabrX


    Red Corsair wrote:Except the title of this report was how to beat Draigowing not lets just line up some eldar then laugh when they get rolled. Then lets deflect every remark with, oh well he wasn't going for tactics or statistical edge, he was playing it like a Michael Bay film.
    The intent of this game was to test alpha strike Eldar against Draigo-wing.


    That psychic rule and the flat out move has been out forever, so that was just poor play... It happens but immediately that changes the game where if you knew the correct ruling he couldn't have even flat out tank shocked!

    As jy2 already answered, I was not aware of the flat out move rule and we both weren't aware of the psychic rule. It's also been half a year since I've dusted off my Eldar and first time I fielded 30 Fire Dragons.


    In regards to luck, a good player makes his own, example: "He flat out tank shocks my paladins, my hammer death or glories, and succeeds!" Like Blackmoore pointed out, why tank shock the hammer? He could have hit any part of your unit, even a clip, avoiding any chance you could blow it up.
    After the Blood Angels versus Necrons game, we had a little less than an hour and a half to finish this game. This was a rush game and I overlooked the hammer model. Later on, when I tanked shocked the same Paladin unit with an empty Fire Dragon Wave Serpent, I made sure it avoided any hammer model.


    It's just frustrating to start with a bold claim, poll, several days of hype, then a broken up report only to see "cinematic game effects".... seriously, title it Draigo Norris, curb stomps the pointy ears in laughable game... I think that was the most irritating part.
    All 40k games involves two players confident that their army is going to win without knowledge of the actual outcome. The poll is setup to highlight pre-game analysis of both general's strategy. The final battle report features the results. If you are frustrated with how jy2 presents his battle reports, then don't them. If you are frustrated with the outcome of this game, then post your own battle report of how you stomped a Draigo-wing army using mech-dar.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 22:11:55


    Post by: Dok


    Some thoughts on your analysis...

    jy2 wrote:
    - 30 melta shots, of which 20 were twin-linked, only killing 3 paladins and wounding Draigo. My saves were on fire as I must've made about 20 3+ cover saves or so.

    Bad luck on his part, however he should have disembarked to your right so that charging him the next turn didn't bring you closer to his objective. Also, running away the next turn with the surviving guys instead of shooting confused me.

    jy2 wrote:- My Death-&-Glory needing 6's to wreck him. I do.

    He should've never ran over a guy with a hammer

    jy2 wrote:- He rams my raven with a S10 missile. Only he is wrecked and my raven doesn't even suffer a scratch.

    Bad luck, plain and simple. However, why would ramming be your first option? He had a lot of guns left at this point.

    jy2 wrote:- Immobilizing his skimmer on terrain, thereby wrecking it because he moved flat-out, while tankshocking my paladins.

    Do you take a terrain test for tank shocking guys in terrain? I don't have a rule book handy so I dunno.

    jy2 wrote:- I killed all his tanks when it mattered. I can't believe I killed 9 skimmers with my limited shooting (and some assault)! Every time I needed, I was able to wreck his skimmers especially in the end with my dread (needing 6's to hit with only S6).

    Again it seems like he fell back with all of his stuff and waited for you tom come get him instead of trying to kill you models in the middle of the board.

    jy2 wrote:- I passed maybe about 2/3 of all my LD10 psychic tests on 3D6.

    word, sometimes that happens

    jy2 wrote:- I didn't fail a single morale test.

    Also, sometimes that happens, but it seems like a lot of them were ill placed.

    jy2 wrote:- His last unit of fire dragons getting pinned. If that hadn't happened, they may have been able to wipe out my 5-man paladin squad out in the open.

    I feel this wouldn't have happened if he would've moved and shot at your approaching squad. I'm not sure what the pack up your meltas and run tactic was going to do.


    jy2 wrote:- As my opponent already mentioned, Eldrad's fortuned serpent failed 3 re-rollable 4+ flat-out cover saves in the end when he was contesting my objective. Also, if only I had blown it up instead of wrecking it, he could have placed Eldrad still within contesting range of the objective. Only a wrecked result would Eldrad not be able to contest and I got it.

    Sometimes it only takes one. However, he could've emergency disembarked on the side of the objective and tied the game up.

    jy2 wrote:- His screening avengers only being able to run 1". Had they been able to run farther out, I may not have been able to contest with my 5-man paladin squad after wiping out the screening unit.

    That's not good screening





    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Just some hopefully constructive eldar criticism.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 22:47:02


    Post by: Aldarionn


    SabrX wrote:The intent of this game was to test alpha strike Eldar against Draigo-wing.

    I wasn't really aware that alpha-strike Eldar was a thing. I've certainly never seen someone field 30 fire dragons in any game I've ever played, and as I pointed out it's not a great configuration. Eldar tactics often revolve around denial rather than actually killing your opponent, and against an obviously superior Death Star, a slash-and-burn tactic would have been better than an alpha strike. Hit the flanks, deal what damage you can, then run away. Not only is it the superior tactic from a competitive standpoint, it's also much closer to the fluff. Eldar cannot afford to sacrifice a massive number of warriors for a gamble that only has a chance of bearing fruit. They prefer to strike with maximum advantage when there is only a tiny probability of failure and much less risk of being slaughtered if the plan fails. You just lined up your guys and shot at him in a pseudo-gunline tactic that backfired heavily due to poor dice, and you lost almost the entire core of your force in the process, then let him pin you in your deployment zone for the rest of the game. What Red Corsair said was that jy2 posted a claim that a certain Eldar list was a terrible matchup for Draigo-Wing, but then Draigo-Wing smashed face all over the Eldar because you didn't play them properly. That doesn't make for a particularly gratifying read, and it really reflects negatively on Eldar players.

    SabrX wrote:As jy2 already answered, I was not aware of the flat out move rule and we both weren't aware of the psychic rule. It's also been half a year since I've dusted off my Eldar and first time I fielded 30 Fire Dragons.

    And that proves my point. The list was designed specifically to counter Draigo-Wing, and while it might have done that, it failed because of some rather large tactical blunders and poor dice. If it had been only the latter that caused the loss, I could feel good about it, but the former means the results don't really mean much.

    SabrX wrote:After the Blood Angels versus Necrons game, we had a little less than an hour and a half to finish this game. This was a rush game and I overlooked the hammer model. Later on, when I tanked shocked the same Paladin unit with an empty Fire Dragon Wave Serpent, I made sure it avoided any hammer model.

    An acceptable excuse. When pressed for time in a tournament there are bound to be some oversights like that, so I'm not holding you accountable for those kinds of mistakes. It's the general battle strategy with which you approached the game that I feel should have changed.

    SabrX wrote:All 40k games involves two players confident that their army is going to win without knowledge of the actual outcome. The poll is setup to highlight pre-game analysis of both general's strategy. The final battle report features the results. If you are frustrated with how jy2 presents his battle reports, then don't them. If you are frustrated with the outcome of this game, then post your own battle report of how you stomped a Draigo-wing army using mech-dar.
    I think jy2 could have set this one up better. Usually his reports are pretty well done and the title highlights what the game is all about. In this case though, he made the claim that a particular Eldar build would curb-stomp Draigo-Wing, then proceeded to walk all over the Eldar list in the actual report. That's a bit of a let-down to be honest. The game wasn't even very close. A better title would have been something like "Can Draigo-Wing Survive and Onslaught of Melta? Grey Knights V Mech Eldar - Fire Dragon Edition!" That sets the stage for a tough matchup, tells the reader who the players are, and draws interest without making the claim that one list is totally going to dominate another, only to have the readers find out that it's exactly the opposite.



    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/23 23:57:31


    Post by: jy2


    The title is just that - a title. It is not a guarantee of victory or loss in a battle report that could go either ways. Otherwise, there would have been no need for me to even have the poll options if this was just a How-to-kill-XXX Guide. It's not. For those who may have felt the title to be misleading, I apologize for that. I just thought it was a cool title for this report. Remember, this is not the Tactica forum but a battle report where any army can beat any other army on any given day. There are no guarantees.

    There are many ways for Eldar to win. Playing aggressively like what my opponent did by ramming his Fire Dragons down my throat is one way. Another would be what Aldarionn suggested - going after the weaker units while ignoring my deathstar. Honestly, there is no right or wrong way to play it....only a preference in play-styles. As this was an experimental game that was just more for fun, the question both my opponent and I posed were what was to happen if my paladinstar went up against his 30 fire dragons backed up by Eldrad? Given such a premise, you just have to play aggressive and go for the ultimate showdown. However, I have no doubt that if this was in a tournament setting, my opponent may have played it much differently and opted for the skirmishing eldar way.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. The dice really skewered the results of this game. While I admit maybe some mistakes were made, had SabrX's 30 fire dragons succeeded in neutering my paladinstar - and that is actually a good probability with or without Guided fragons - the outlooks may have been completely different. Readers may then be praising his "brilliant" play instead. But instead, the dice boned him and consequently, we look at it in hindsight and criticize him instead.

    And how about this: suppose I failed even 1 tankshocked morale test, would you still be claiming that he shouldn't have tankshocked my unit or would you probably applaud him with a "great" move? Is it not worth a calculated risk to sacrifice his 120pt transport to try to take out my 1100pt+ unit? Would you really be trying to avoid my deathstar with 30 meltas that has a good chance to annihilate them? I can tell you this much. If I were playing SabrX's mechdar, I would have done exactly what he did.


    Red Corsair wrote:
    jy2 wrote:It's like Kobe's Lakers against Lebron James' Heat. You know you all want to see Kobe go mano-o-mano against Lebron. Who cares about the role players.



    Except it was Kobe and Bruce Bowen.....

    No, it was Kobe on fire against Lebron on an off-night. Trust me, Bowen never had to tools to beat Kobe like Lebron has. It's just that Kobe made most of his shots and Lebron bricked most of his.





    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/24 00:10:25


    Post by: Blackmoor


    DarthDiggler wrote:Don't be to hard on SabrX. He explained his reasoning in wanting to have a cinematic battle and not a dodge and weave battle. I will admit his tactics make for a more exciting game in the end and how quickly would we get bored in reading a battle report which says each turn one side hides.

    Maybe that is one of the reasons Eldar are not very popular. They require a finesse bordering on non-engagement and that can be a turn off for most players.


    My favorite batreps are two equal players going at it and neither of them making mistakes, and it being a chess match with both players making moves and counter moves..

    The Eldar build is one of the rare ones that can be aggressive with Paladins and does not have to sit back and shoot or maneuver.

    It needs to do fish-of-fury type tactics of shooting behind the wave serpents so when the dice do not go your way, you are protected. Then it becomes more of a chess match where the GK vehicles try to take out the blocking Wave Serpents, and the paladins try to shoot the fire dragons, and then the battle would be really interesting.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/24 01:02:56


    Post by: Red Corsair


    jy2 wrote:The title is just that - a title. It is not a guarantee of victory or loss in a battle report that could go either ways. [


    No one said anything about guarantees, the title claims to be a how to, which it clearly and laughably is not.

    jy2 wrote:Otherwise, there would have been no need for me to even have the poll options if this was just a How-to-kill-XXX Guide.


    No offense intended but ever since trying to get feedback for 'Ard boys (and asking for permission to poll post without a report) and polling which list to use, none of your polls have been relevant or needed. [POLL] Who will win?.... Not helpful or usable data considering no one has any grounds to make a conclusion yet. Now, a post game poll whether a list is valid? Now that would be understandable. You have said yourself that comparining things in a vacuum is useless, so why poll lists asking who will win?

    jy2 wrote:There are many ways for Eldar to win. Playing aggressively like what my opponent did by ramming his Fire Dragons down my throat is one way.


    So now your going to insult us by saying that his tactics were sound and it was only the dice? That was the crappiest plan ever, and that's the polite way of describing it. In no part of reading it did I say to myself, Oh OK he's going to do this later. It was like watching a lunatic wielding a sledge hammer chasing after a man wielding a pane of glass, who decides it would make a lovely shield and stands there holding it in front of his face.

    jy2 wrote:As this was an experimental game that was just more for fun, the question both my opponent and I posed were what was to happen if my paladinstar went up against his 30 fire dragons backed up by Eldrad?


    Apparently the answer is roll over and die rather then actually play well. Again, you are advocating that they play in a vacuum now, no strategy, no synergy, no plan for the objective. Simply dice rolling, that's not a battle report.

    jy2 wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again. The dice really skewered the results of this game. While I admit maybe some mistakes were made, had SabrX's 30 fire dragons succeeded in neutering my paladinstar - and that is actually a good probability with or without Guided fragons - the outlooks may have been completely different. Readers may then be praising his "brilliant" play instead. But instead, the dice boned him and consequently, we look at it in hindsight and criticize him instead.


    Actually even if his dice were on fire, his plan sucked and you played poorly. I think to say that are analysis of the situation is subjective based on the games results is an insult to readers and gamers. "Hey look that guy charged gretchin into paladins and won combat, he is a genius lets all try it!" I don't think so.

    jy2 wrote:And how about this: suppose I failed even 1 tankshocked morale test, would you still be claiming that he shouldn't have tankshocked my unit or would you probably applaud him with a "great" move? Is it not worth a calculated risk to sacrifice his 120pt transport to try to take out my 1100pt+ unit?


    It's a stupid move to leave your 'fragons' naked in hopes they will fail a ld10 check. Yes. As a last resort maybe it would have been worth it but point costs are irrelevant when you require that 120pt transport to play blocker.

    jy2 wrote:Would you really be trying to avoid my deathstar with 30 meltas that has a good chance to annihilate them? I can tell you this much. If I were playing SabrX's mechdar, I would have done exactly what he did.


    All this statement does is undermine your credibility as a tactician. So basically your telling us you have no idea how to play against your own army. Not to mention your now advocating smashing two units into each other without a plan and hoping for a result, which is foolish.




    jy2 wrote:
    No, it was Kobe on fire against Lebron on an off-night. Trust me, Bowen never had to tools to beat Kobe like Lebron has. It's just that Kobe made most of his shots and Lebron bricked most of his.


    No trust me, fire dragons are not the Lebron James of 40k. I would never consider an expendable melta unit and all star. This statement is ridiculous btw.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/24 01:35:06


    Post by: Aldarionn


    @jy2 - Fair enough, but why have the battle if all you wanted was to know what would happen if a death star runs up on its hard counter? Seems like it's pretty easy to work out the various scenarios with mathhammer and adjust accordingly for good or poor rolling/terrain. What makes it interesting as a battle report is how the two ARMIES interact, NOT just how the two units interact, and the fact that you slammed them headlong into one another without the Eldar player using proper tactics is why people are questioning the report. You cannot look at two units in a vacuum and make a fair comparison, especially considering how cheap the Fire Dragons were compared to the 1100 point Death Star (almost 300 points cheaper for all 30 and their tanks?).

    There IS a right and a wrong way to play Eldar, and the aggressive in-your-face style is exactly the WRONG way to play them against a Death Star. You play the aggressive way against turtled armies, or other fast armies. Against Death Stars you play the flanks and win with tactical moves. Eldar have very little in their arsenal that can stand up to the 10 Paladin + Draigo + Librarian brick on its own, and so they MUST adjust their tactics accordingly or they will lose.

    Ultimately it was your game, and it was for fun, as you said. My point is that the title was misleading, and SabrX did not play a game representative of what Eldar are actually capable of so the report was a bit one-sided. If someone read the report without reading the rest of this thread, all they would see is "Grey Knights win against a list designed to take them out! They must be so OP!" Clearly that's not the case, but at a glance it's how the report is presented.

    Of course all of this is just my opinion, and you should take it as no more than that. You guys clearly enjoyed the game and that's what matters. The rest is just could-haves and would-haves. I would be interested in seeing a rematch though.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/24 01:35:26


    Post by: -666-


    Give it up dude. The eldar got rolled hard and the list was specifically tailored to beat Draigowing. No tears.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/24 01:45:54


    Post by: Red Corsair


    -666- wrote:Give it up dude. The eldar got rolled hard and the list was specifically tailored to beat Draigowing. No tears.


    *ignored*


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/24 01:49:06


    Post by: -666-


    So what specifically was stupid?


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/24 01:56:22


    Post by: Red Corsair


    That whole long winded statement.... lol, clearly it took a lot of creativity and insight.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/24 02:13:56


    Post by: -666-


    So are you not happy that the eldar army lost? They seem to have had some bad luck for pointy ears.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/24 02:37:23


    Post by: jy2


    @Red Corsair:

    Clearly you are taking offense at how I named this battle report. That is fine by me, as it is your right to not like what someone else publishes.

    I'll tell you what. When you come out with your own battle report, you can title it however you want. Me? I'm not changing my writing style or the way I do my reports. I will take in constructive criticism, but I have my own style of doing things.

    My polls are mainly just for fun. For those who don't like it, you don't have to vote. You could just ignore it. But many readers find it fun to see if they were able to guess the outcome of my battles. Yes, there are polls that try to extrapolate data to show a point. Then there are polls that tries to gauge the views and trends of the general populace. And finally, there are polls just for funsies. Not every poll has to support a theory or ideology, though they do tend to show a trend as to how people behave/think (which I've always found to be interesting).


    So now your going to insult us by saying that his tactics were sound and it was only the dice? That was the crappiest plan ever, and that's the polite way of describing it. In no part of reading it did I say to myself, Oh OK he's going to do this later. It was like watching a lunatic wielding a sledge hammer chasing after a man wielding a pane of glass, who decides it would make a lovely shield and stands there holding it in front of his face.

    Excuse me? Are you saying that there is only 1 way to win a game? That every other strategy is crap and invalid? Now you are insulting me instead. I, for one, am a very aggressive player. That is how I've won a lot of my games where I should have lost - by being the aggressor and playing aggressively when the situation dictates. This is not to say that it is always better to play aggressively, but it is a play-style that could be rewarding.

    Mechdar had all the tools to play aggressively and even try to table Draigowing in this battle. And that is exactly what I would have tried to do had I been in SabrX's shoes. So excuse me if you think I am insulting the reader's intelligence by advocating his playstyle. That is because I would have employed the same strategy (though with a slightly different execution). And BTW, I am winning just fine with the way I play, thank you very much.


    Apparently the answer is roll over and die rather then actually play well. Again, you are advocating that they play in a vacuum now, no strategy, no synergy, no plan for the objective. Simply dice rolling, that's not a battle report.

    You don't think my opponent had a plan? That his only plan was to sacrifice his fire dragons, and then nothing after that? Did you not realize he had 9 fast skimmers that could actually do much, much more damage to my army than just his fire dragons? And I'm not just talking about trying to kill my paladins.

    Fire dragons, whether in units of 5 or 10, are still suicide units. If you are not employing them to screen, distract and kill, then you are not playing them right. Then after they die, you've still got skimmers to contest, screen out and sacrifice if necessary. In an objectives-game, only the 15 dire avengers matter. Everything else - all the skimmers, fire dragons and even Eldrad - are just a sacrifice to be made in the name of victory.

    So no, fire dragons will do more than just roll over and die. They will do it at the time and place of their choosing, and their sacrifice will bring the eldar army that much closer to victory.

    If only I hadn't been so good at killing his skimmers. No, you didn't really get a glimpse of SabrX's plan until the very end because I was just so good at stopping it this game. His plan was never really to rely on his dragons. It was to rely on his skimmers for the win. The dragons were really just a bonus.


    Actually even if his dice were on fire, his plan sucked and you played poorly. I think to say that are analysis of the situation is subjective based on the games results is an insult to readers and gamers. "Hey look that guy charged gretchin into paladins and won combat, he is a genius lets all try it!" I don't think so.

    So tell me how you would've played my army....no, how you could've played my army, keeping in mind that:

    1) I have little mobility. Other than my stormraven, which my opponent poured a tremendous amount of firepower into - all of his prisms and bright lance/missile launchers as well as trying to ram it.

    2) I had limited ranged AT and I am shooting at skimmers with cover for the most part.

    3) I had to hug terrain. If he caught my paladins out in the open, they are dead. Thus, my mobility was severely hampered.

    Regardless of the outcome, my army was very limited in terms of how I could play it in this game. My opponent had a lot more flexibility.


    And I am not talking about a subjective analysis of the game. My opponent had his gameplan. If it had succeeded, people would say his play was "brilliant" just like an athlete who takes a risky play and wins the game. But if he had failed, people would criticize his performance as they would an athlete who takes a game-winning shot and misses. "Oh, he should have passed or he should have taken a less risky shot, etc., etc." It is just the nature of people, not the subjectivity of my analysis.

    It's a stupid move to leave your 'fragons' naked in hopes they will fail a ld10 check. Yes. As a last resort maybe it would have been worth it but point costs are irrelevant when you require that 120pt transport to play blocker.

    Who says they're naked? They are there for offense. He doesn't necessarily have to wipe out my paladins, just reduce the unit so that it isn't really much of a threat anymore. It's bascially a double offense. Fire dragons try to shoot me down. Serpent tries to break me. Also, my paladins were in terrain and about 7-8" away. There's always the possibility I may fail my difficult terrain tests in the movement and assault phases. I did it before when I tried to multi-assault his wave serpents.

    Lastly, I think what you fail to realize is that the skimmers are actually more important than the fire dragons. If dragons die, so what? Even if they don't kill me, they've served their purpose by delaying my attempts to reach his objective. It's his skimmers that are going to win him the game at the end of the day, not the dragons.

    All this statement does is undermine your credibility as a tactician. 3 units of ten dragons, that even if you crunch the numbers shouldn't annihilate your unit to a man, I think the average is half if I am not mistaken. So basically your telling us you have no idea how to play against your own army. Not to mention your now advocating smashing two units into each other without a plan and hoping for a result which is foolish.

    Say what you want about my tactical acumen, but what many people fail to realize is that the dragons don't necessarily need to wipe out the paladins to be successful. What they really need to do is to keep them occupied for a couple of turns. In a objectives game in which a non-mobile army has to trekk to the enemy's objective, time is the main factor. Keep them occupied by letting them kill stuff and they won't be able to make it to your objective in time to contest. Mechdar, on the other hand, had many, many mobile units to contest the grey knight objective.




    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Aldarionn wrote:@jy2 - Fair enough, but why have the battle if all you wanted was to know what would happen if a death star runs up on its hard counter? Seems like it's pretty easy to work out the various scenarios with mathhammer and adjust accordingly for good or poor rolling/terrain. What makes it interesting as a battle report is how the two ARMIES interact, NOT just how the two units interact, and the fact that you slammed them headlong into one another without the Eldar player using proper tactics is why people are questioning the report. You cannot look at two units in a vacuum and make a fair comparison, especially considering how cheap the Fire Dragons were compared to the 1100 point Death Star (almost 300 points cheaper for all 30 and their tanks?).

    There IS a right and a wrong way to play Eldar, and the aggressive in-your-face style is exactly the WRONG way to play them against a Death Star. You play the aggressive way against turtled armies, or other fast armies. Against Death Stars you play the flanks and win with tactical moves. Eldar have very little in their arsenal that can stand up to the 10 Paladin + Draigo + Librarian brick on its own, and so they MUST adjust their tactics accordingly or they will lose.

    Ultimately it was your game, and it was for fun, as you said. My point is that the title was misleading, and SabrX did not play a game representative of what Eldar are actually capable of so the report was a bit one-sided. If someone read the report without reading the rest of this thread, all they would see is "Grey Knights win against a list designed to take them out! They must be so OP!" Clearly that's not the case, but at a glance it's how the report is presented.

    Of course all of this is just my opinion, and you should take it as no more than that. You guys clearly enjoyed the game and that's what matters. The rest is just could-haves and would-haves. I would be interested in seeing a rematch though.

    Because we wanted to see how one army would do against the other as well. I also don't look at things in a vacuum as well and you're right, it isn't just paladins versus fire dragons. My analogy to the basketball game is actually quite accurate IMO. Kobe's Lakers versus Lebron's Heat. You want your team to win. That is the ultimate satisfaction. You want the role-players to contribute. You want the the team to do well on the whole because it is, after all, a team sport. But secretly inside, you also want to see Kobe go one-on-one against Lebron and see one do well over the other. Now it isn't actually necessary that each must be able to overcome the other in order for their team to win, but it would be all the more sweet if they did and their team won as well. Stars help to sensationalize the matchups and the game. Yes, it is a team sport, but no matter how you put it, people will always look up to and compare the stars. It's unavoidable.

    It just happened that in this game, no matter how un-eldar-like my opponent played, both of our playstyles brought our 2 "stars" into a confrontation as my opponent wanted to kill my deathstar. And were it the other way around with me playing mechdar, I would have done the same thing. Who says you can't try to have your cake and eat it too?

    I try to let the audience know that this game doesn't accurately represent how the results would have been under more normal circumstances (i.e. average dice). And I certainly hope that people don't come out from this battle report thinking that Draigowing in indestructable. What I hope that readers can take from this report is that any army can beat any other army on any given day no matter the army list mis-match. Even if it is a David-vs-Goliath type matchup, don't give up. There is always a chance to win.








    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/24 04:45:38


    Post by: Cladmir


    To jy2: Thank you so much for taking the time to take all the pictures, organize them in an easy to follow way, talking the time to post them, do them in a manner that is exciting and engaging, and taking the time to post well thought out responses to posters while having the patience with regards to criticisms. I, for one, have always enjoyed your bat reps immensely and find them very educational. I like the fact that you are honest when you create these bat reps and never hesitating to post bat reps where you or you opponent make mistakes, because that is how I get to learn without having to make those errors myself (still make those errors, though, but that's my fault) -- I still remember the bat rep where you split you Crowe-purifier list forces agains a tau (I think) army, in contrary to your initial plan, to disastrous result. In fact, I am glad that you do not wait to post a "perfect game" because that willprobably a few games a year!

    To those detractors (no one in particular): jy2 posted this bat rep for free out of his generousity, on his own time, and gains no profit from it. No one had to pay to read it, and he did not force anyone to read it, so he can name it and promote it however he likes. Everyone is, of cours, entitled to their opinion, but I do not see why anyone should be overly upset or insulted by it.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/24 07:04:01


    Post by: Red Corsair


    See this is whats irritating, he didn't post the battle report out of the goodness of his heart, he clearly gets just as much joy from having hits and viewers praise his reports. So to sit their and act like it's a selfless one way street is ridiculous. If he gained nothing from it, he wouldn't post it. He expects feedback, and I am just as quick to give kudos where merited. You have to take the good with the bad though. Saying you will take criticism and then not taking it are two different things.

    Also reread my remarks, any tactical criticism was directed toward the Eldar not the GK. So why are you jumping on my back now and defending your own strategy for the GK that was not in question?
    I also did not say there was one way to win. You actually implied that by rejecting feedback and saying he made all the right moves but dice failed him!
    All myself and others were doing initially was try and give feedback in what I think was a very constructive manner only to have it tossed out by jy2's claims.
    "it was for fun not competitive"
    "he was gong for a cinematic feel"
    Those are all fine, but then he makes claims that his opponent played the game with good strategy and that the tactics were sound. You can't have it both ways.
    Was this just a completely casual game? If so why set it up like it wasn't? Why have a pregame analysis and strategy if you are just going to through two armies at each other aimlessly? That was all my concerns were. So obviously we are going to critique from what we have read and not assume by some miracle that neither play cared to learn from this report.
    So basically, as long as we praise everything that he has done it is fine? But display any constructive critique, and he gets defensive and makes excuses? Then point out those excuses and he points the finger and acts like I and others are picking on him? All I am asking is that you own up to your claims, that's called integrity. If you want to through strategy out the window that's fine and your prerogative. But don't piss on my back and call it rain if you know what I mean, poor tactics are poor tactics.

    Heck I enjoy reading BR on here that are fluff narrative only. But it is just arrogant to make a competitive claim at the beginning and then not take feedback at face value later and defend your stance by copping out and saying "don't read my reports if you don't agree with me". That's where I feel offended, when an honest critique is made and then rejected on these grounds. Simply reply based on what your thoughts were t the time.
    But, to say that a rule must be new when you play it wrong has undertones that shout; it must be new or I wouldn't have made that mistake. That's extremely arrogant.

    I want to take a side note and actually thank you for your posts, they are appreciated and well done. I think you have the best format and a very crisp and level flow that makes for a cinematic feel all its own. So again please don't think I am beating up on you. But please do realize feedback on here can't and will not always be in your favor. I am always looking to debate tactics and stratagem, but one has to own up to ones mistakes (btw most of which were not directed at you but your opponent might I add).


    Automatically Appended Next Post:

    If you would like to move forward constructively?.....

    Who says they're naked? They are there for offense. He doesn't necessarily have to wipe out my paladins, just reduce the unit so that it isn't really much of a threat anymore. It's bascially a double offense. Fire dragons try to shoot me down. Serpent tries to break me. Also, my paladins were in terrain and about 7-8" away. There's always the possibility I may fail my difficult terrain tests in the movement and assault phases. I did it before when I tried to multi-assault his wave serpents.


    No one was arguing the contrary other then for example, why place them so that after the assault you would be closer to his objective? That is poor model placement plain and simple. Others had even said this. He should have placed them where they could damage the paladins, and if the paladins dealt with them it would drag them off their own objective and further from his. Same for those important skimmers. It looked as though he hadn't moved the prisms much? If he had them to your right flank then again they would force you to make a decision.







    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/24 07:55:23


    Post by: BeefCakeSoup


    Nice Batrep! Thanks for posting step by step pics!

    From my PoV

    -Your saves were the deciding factor in this fight. While I'm not knocking your skills as a GK general, I am gonna be frank, your ass should of been blown away a few times over. Those saves were stupid good and not something I would count on in a rematch.

    -Mobility, where was it? Your opponent really went static when you advanced. Against GKs, he needed a squad of Fire Dragons on every side of that Death Star, forcing you to go for one at a time. He really needed his troops fanned out, wave serpents not only can do this, they can do it very reliably.

    Good Game, looking forward to more and certainly a rematch.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/24 08:16:36


    Post by: darkcloud92


    Great batrep! I could tell this one was gonna end based upon that shooting phase, definitely a risky move. The best possible choice, or how I would have played it? Prob not, but it could have worked out. Its a shame for his bad luck, anyone who reads these forums should know jy and sabrx are great players. You can't look at one battle where sabrx loses badly and jy wins by thrashing forwards and judge their tactical ability off of it. Its ONE battle. But the report itself, not just the battle, was still very good and well documented. Obviously red corsair is just ungreatfull with regards to the time and effort it took to make the report and is unable to get over the fact it was just a fun battle, not some tournament. He is just determined to only look at this as negatively as possible and flame and vent as hard as he can. No matter what you put, hes gonna argue against it so just ignore him. Thanks for the reps jy, I look forward to the next! An sabrx please do another tau report, those are by far my favorite, the recent reports with tau players have been a bad representation of the army and its tactics


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/24 09:28:37


    Post by: SabrX


    @Aldarionn:

    Actually, my list is made to counter all MEQ, and not just Draigo-wing. While it may not win against horde (very few Eldar armies ever will) it should perform well against a lot of Marine lists.

    @Blackmoor:

    You've caught on. I've tried the sit back and shoot approach. It's boring and doesn't win in the current meta game. I like to play aggressive. I still think 30 Fire Dragons is a viable build.

    I would have moved another Wave Serpent to complete the skimmer wall, but I couldn't balance one on top of the wrecked black Wave Serpent.

    @Red Corsair:

    You aren't taking this particular battle report at face value. This was a test game and a friendly match. While jy2 and I do compete in tournaments, we don't treat all our games highly competitive.

    I'm also not a power gamer. I'm not changing my play style. Win or lose, I will continue to take risks and play my army as I see fit.

    @darkcloud92 & Cladmir

    Thanks a lot!

    jy2 and I enjoy sharing our experiences to the online community. We aren't obligated or getting paid to do it. It's not like our game sets a precedence for all match ups between two armies.

    When I have time, I'll post a couple battle reports featuring my Tau.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/24 13:04:04


    Post by: the weird one


    May I ask one thing?

    How do some guys here could explain ignoring paladinstar is a viable option?

    Excuse me, an entire turn of going, what, 24" from the paladin line on the centre on both sides? Or rather 30"? And give even MORE time to shoot for Vendreads and just allow paladins to salsa on Eldar home objective?

    Or just go loco and get all those shots in your face, getting all your Dragon Serpents downed?

    The two options seem to be let dreds catch us without taxi on open ground or let pallies down our transports chand eat us alive without shooting or Eldrad's powers.

    The only big mistake I can see there was lack of proficient charge blocker on pallies' way. It could be blown away by dreads, but terrain can slow assailant down anyway.

    Eeesh... I suppose it's true there are people on internet hating people for daring enter internet.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/24 16:14:23


    Post by: jy2


    Red Corsair wrote:See this is whats irritating, he didn't post the battle report out of the goodness of his heart, he clearly gets just as much joy from having hits and viewers praise his reports. So to sit their and act like it's a selfless one way street is ridiculous. If he gained nothing from it, he wouldn't post it. He expects feedback, and I am just as quick to give kudos where merited. You have to take the good with the bad though. Saying you will take criticism and then not taking it are two different things.

    Don't tell me you are naive enough to think that people are totally selfless? Everyone enjoys feedback in some shape or form, especially if it is positive. Take teachers for instance. You don't think they feel good if their students thank them or the parents pay them a compliment on what a good job they are doing or for that matter, they see that their students are actually learning? Is is so wrong for them to enjoy a sense of satisfaction from the fruits of their labor?

    I, and others here who write battle reports, do it out of enjoyment and love for the game. We are all fans, and on top of that, I get a sense of satisfaction if my reports can help out newer players with their games, provide information for those who want to see how an army/unit is like or just provide a couple minutes of entertainment to others. Am I supposed to feel guilty for that? If so, then I'm sorry....I'm only human.

    Also reread my remarks, any tactical criticism was directed toward the Eldar not the GK. So why are you jumping on my back now and defending your own strategy for the GK that was not in question?

    Because you are saying that I played poorly, that I have "no idea how to play against your own army", that I advocate "smashing two units into each other without a plan and hopeing for a result, which is foolish" and that I am "advocating that they play in a vacuum now, no strategy, no synergy, no plan for the objective."

    With such strong accusations, you don't think I will come to defend my own views?

    I see my opponent's tactics as a viable, if unorthodox one as I also play unorthodox army builds (shooty nids, assault crons). It's ok to disagree with the tactics, but when you claim that the tactic is stupid and totally wrong, I take offense at that. There isn't just 1 way to win a game. SabrX's tactics is just as equally viable as your own or Aldarionn's or anyone elses for that matter, even if it isn't very fluffy. His execution may be a little off, but then again, he hasn't been playing his mechdar for a while (since our last Apoc game, I believe, which was about half a year ago).


    I also did not say there was one way to win. You actually implied that by rejecting feedback and saying he made all the right moves but dice failed him!
    All myself and others were doing initially was try and give feedback in what I think was a very constructive manner only to have it tossed out by jy2's claims.
    "it was for fun not competitive"
    "he was gong for a cinematic feel"
    Those are all fine, but then he makes claims that his opponent played the game with good strategy and that the tactics were sound. You can't have it both ways.
    Was this just a completely casual game? If so why set it up like it wasn't? Why have a pregame analysis and strategy if you are just going to through two armies at each other aimlessly? That was all my concerns were. So obviously we are going to critique from what we have read and not assume by some miracle that neither play cared to learn from this report.
    So basically, as long as we praise everything that he has done it is fine? But display any constructive critique, and he gets defensive and makes excuses? Then point out those excuses and he points the finger and acts like I and others are picking on him? All I am asking is that you own up to your claims, that's called integrity. If you want to through strategy out the window that's fine and your prerogative. But don't piss on my back and call it rain if you know what I mean, poor tactics are poor tactics.

    Heck I enjoy reading BR on here that are fluff narrative only. But it is just arrogant to make a competitive claim at the beginning and then not take feedback at face value later and defend your stance by copping out and saying "don't read my reports if you don't agree with me". That's where I feel offended, when an honest critique is made and then rejected on these grounds. Simply reply based on what your thoughts were t the time.
    But, to say that a rule must be new when you play it wrong has undertones that shout; it must be new or I wouldn't have made that mistake. That's extremely arrogant.

    No, you didn't say there was only 1 way to win, but just the fact that you wrote off someone elses strategy, labeling it as wrong and stupid, elicited a response from me.

    I can handle criticism and I can also disagree with it. Your criticism was particularly strong, and as such, I felt that I had to respond in kind, which was also just as strong. Just as you vehemently claim that my opponent played it wrong, I just as strongly claim that there is more than one way to play the game. Playing counter to how the army normally plays isn't necessarily wrong. He is still playing to the strengths of his list, taking advantage of his powerful close-range shooting, his mobility and his psychic prowess. And my opponent is playing to win. We both are, even if we are playing "for fun". You know, you can both play competitively and for fun as well. The two doesn't necessarily have to contradict each other. You can say his main goal was to win, but his sub-goal was to try to take out my paladinstar.

    I will admit when I make a mistake, and I do own up to my mistakes all the time in these battle reports. While everyone enjoy praises, I feel that criticism is just as important. I have accepted criticism before, and I have also rejected criticism that I don't agree with. You do have some valid points with some of your criticism, yet at the same time, I don't agree with your main criticism. There is no absolute right or wrong when talking strategy and tactics. There are only opinions on which is the better way to play it. In that regards, I can only say that we can just agree to disagree. As for the title, I am sorry that you find it misleading and you know what I will do about it? I will take it into consideration the next time I title my battle reports.

    The only claim I made about this report is that it was more for fun and as an experiment. Look at the very first paragraph of my opening post and you will see. I make no excuses. Just like you, I speak my mind just as bluntly as you speak yours. But don't get me wrong. Even my casual "fun" games with SabrX are quite competitive as we are both competitive players, especially when we go up against each other. Against other players, maybe not so. But being competitive doesn't mean we play to win at all costs. It doesn't mean that every move we make is meant to win the game. It doesn't mean we don't give each other some leeway when mistakes are made (i.e. me forgetting to go first). And it doesn't mean that we don't help each other out advice-wise (even in our more "competitive" necron vs BA game, I gave SabrX some advice on how to play his blood angels, especially towards the end).

    As for the rules mistake, it was an honest mistake that we were both not aware of. Does it matter whether I thought is was new or not? The point is, I overlooked it in the FAQ's which was why I was not aware of it.

    I want to take a side note and actually thank you for your posts, they are appreciated and well done. I think you have the best format and a very crisp and level flow that makes for a cinematic feel all its own. So again please don't think I am beating up on you. But please do realize feedback on here can't and will not always be in your favor. I am always looking to debate tactics and stratagem, but one has to own up to ones mistakes (btw most of which were not directed at you but your opponent might I add).

    That is fine and don't worry too much. I can handle criticism just fine. If I agree, I will own up. If I don't agree with the criticism, I will express why (and usually in a tone equal to the level of the critic). The reason why I am defending my opponent's tactics is because I would have probably done the same thing as him with just minute changes in execution.

    If you would like to move forward constructively?.....

    No one was arguing the contrary other then for example, why place them so that after the assault you would be closer to his objective? That is poor model placement plain and simple. Others had even said this. He should have placed them where they could damage the paladins, and if the paladins dealt with them it would drag them off their own objective and further from his. Same for those important skimmers. It looked as though he hadn't moved the prisms much? If he had them to your right flank then again they would force you to make a decision.

    Agreed. You do make some good points tactics-wise and I would have also played it this way if I were him - try to draw the paladins away from his objective and make them choose. I find no problems with his overall strategy of being aggressive, though I do agree that my opponent may have made some mistakes in the execution.

    Anyways, despite his crappy dice and some tactical mistakes, my opponent still had a good chance to win it in the end. This just goes to show how tough it is to beat mechdar in an objectives game with Draigowing.



    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/24 16:41:45


    Post by: Red Corsair


    Agreed, sometimes these things hit impasses for the wrong reasons. I blame a lot of it on implied tone as sometimes my remarks are taken as harsher then intended because that's how the written word can be interpreted sometimes.

    Yea I agree that mech eldar are a real pain, mostly in objective missions as they are so durable and fast.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/24 16:59:34


    Post by: jy2


    Dok wrote:Some thoughts on your analysis...

    jy2 wrote:
    - 30 melta shots, of which 20 were twin-linked, only killing 3 paladins and wounding Draigo. My saves were on fire as I must've made about 20 3+ cover saves or so.

    Bad luck on his part, however he should have disembarked to your right so that charging him the next turn didn't bring you closer to his objective. Also, running away the next turn with the surviving guys instead of shooting confused me.

    Hi Dok. Thanks for your analysis. I will try to answer them as best as I think my opponent was trying to do. I agree that he should have came in on the opposite flank from his objective. The only response I can give here was probably "ring rust" - that he hasn't played mechdar in quite a while. As for his fire dragons taking off, I believe he changed his strategy to "live to fight another day" and "defend the objective and contest his".

    Dok wrote:
    jy2 wrote:- My Death-&-Glory needing 6's to wreck him. I do.

    He should've never ran over a guy with a hammer

    Just a mistake on his part. He did change his strategy thereafter to "don't tankshock the hammerdin".

    Dok wrote:
    jy2 wrote:- He rams my raven with a S10 missile. Only he is wrecked and my raven doesn't even suffer a scratch.

    Bad luck, plain and simple. However, why would ramming be your first option? He had a lot of guns left at this point.

    He really didn't have a lot of guns left. Fire dragons just embarked so can't shoot. Some of his skimmers went flat-out so couldn't shoot, and I believe one of his prisms was shaken. My raven was my sole source of mobility. He had a lot of mobility. It was a calculated risk to sacrifice 1 of his skimmers in order to take out my only skimmer, but it would've been huge had he been able to do so. Overall, he had to do whatever it takes to try to stop me from contesting.

    Dok wrote:
    jy2 wrote:- Immobilizing his skimmer on terrain, thereby wrecking it because he moved flat-out, while tankshocking my paladins.

    Do you take a terrain test for tank shocking guys in terrain? I don't have a rule book handy so I dunno.

    I believe you do, at least until after I take my morale test. After all, if I did D&G and stopped the skimmer, it would be stopped right at the point where it tankshocked me and not where it's ending move was supposed to be.

    Dok wrote:
    jy2 wrote:- I killed all his tanks when it mattered. I can't believe I killed 9 skimmers with my limited shooting (and some assault)! Every time I needed, I was able to wreck his skimmers especially in the end with my dread (needing 6's to hit with only S6).

    Again it seems like he fell back with all of his stuff and waited for you tom come get him instead of trying to kill you models in the middle of the board.

    After losing his 2 units of fire dragons, I believe he also lost the confidence to be able to kill my deathstar. Thus, he reverted back to a more defensive game, trying to screen out his objective and contest mine.

    Dok wrote:
    jy2 wrote:- His last unit of fire dragons getting pinned. If that hadn't happened, they may have been able to wipe out my 5-man paladin squad out in the open.

    I feel this wouldn't have happened if he would've moved and shot at your approaching squad. I'm not sure what the pack up your meltas and run tactic was going to do.

    Honestly, it wasn't that bad of a tactic. For my paladins to contest his objective, I would have had to expose myself out in the open. If he could've established his dragons in a defensive position in the ruins by his objective, he would've had a clear shot at my pallies out in the open as I was going towards him to contest. It's just too bad that his unit got pinned before they could establish position.

    Dok wrote:
    jy2 wrote:- As my opponent already mentioned, Eldrad's fortuned serpent failed 3 re-rollable 4+ flat-out cover saves in the end when he was contesting my objective. Also, if only I had blown it up instead of wrecking it, he could have placed Eldrad still within contesting range of the objective. Only a wrecked result would Eldrad not be able to contest and I got it.

    Sometimes it only takes one. However, he could've emergency disembarked on the side of the objective and tied the game up.

    No, you can only emergency disembark if you can't otherwise disembark normally (i.e. access points were blocked). His access point was available so he had to disembark from there.

    Dok wrote:
    jy2 wrote:- His screening avengers only being able to run 1". Had they been able to run farther out, I may not have been able to contest with my 5-man paladin squad after wiping out the screening unit.

    That's not good screening

    Yeah, that's a poor run roll. If he had rolled higher, there was a good chance that I wouldn't have been able to make it into contesting range after wiping out his screening unit.


    BeefCakeSoup wrote:Nice Batrep! Thanks for posting step by step pics!
    -Your saves were the deciding factor in this fight. While I'm not knocking your skills as a GK general, I am gonna be frank, your ass should of been blown away a few times over. Those saves were stupid good and not something I would count on in a rematch.

    Agreed. In a more "normal" game, I'd probably lose and lose big. Draigowing versus mechdar, especially in an objectives-base game, is actually one of the very few games where I consider Draigowing to be the underdogs.


    the weird one wrote:May I ask one thing?

    How do some guys here could explain ignoring paladinstar is a viable option?

    Excuse me, an entire turn of going, what, 24" from the paladin line on the centre on both sides? Or rather 30"? And give even MORE time to shoot for Vendreads and just allow paladins to salsa on Eldar home objective?

    Or just go loco and get all those shots in your face, getting all your Dragon Serpents downed?

    The two options seem to be let dreds catch us without taxi on open ground or let pallies down our transports chand eat us alive without shooting or Eldrad's powers.

    The only big mistake I can see there was lack of proficient charge blocker on pallies' way. It could be blown away by dreads, but terrain can slow assailant down anyway.

    Eeesh... I suppose it's true there are people on internet hating people for daring enter internet.

    I guess its a standard eldar tactic. Surgical strike....ignore the dangerous unit and pick out the weaker units.

    The difference here is that Draigowing, unlike other deathstar units, can shoot back and are pretty deadly in a fire-fight. Thus, to ignore them, you'd actually have to be outside of their psycannon + movement range, or about 30" away. I know that ,which is why I put my paladins right in the middle of the board where they have the most reach.

    Ignore them to your detriment. Unlike normal deathstars, their bark is almost as deadly as their bite.



    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/24 19:19:56


    Post by: -666-


    I liked your play style jy2! An aggressive opening followed with lots of controlled actions.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/25 03:46:28


    Post by: Benamint


    Loved the report, and guys come on. Players and writers will do things there way. Honestly there is no real right or wrong. Just personal taste and style. Some have more appeal or success than others, but essentially both SabrX and Jy2 have more than fully explained why they did/do what they do. Therefore I see no real reason to continue this increasingly nasty argument. It's just a game guys. Either way, I love reading Jy's batreps and I actually look up to many of the people (for batreps, painting etc) who posted on this.

    Ben


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/25 07:52:51


    Post by: Aldarionn


    SabrX wrote:@Aldarionn:

    Actually, my list is made to counter all MEQ, and not just Draigo-wing. While it may not win against horde (very few Eldar armies ever will) it should perform well against a lot of Marine lists.

    If your list is designed to counter all MEQ's then I think you might want to reconsider the 30 Fire Dragons. They are an extremely effective unit if used properly, but 30 is overkill by about a mile. If you want to have effective anti MEQ and Anti-Horde rolled into one unit, I suggest taking 8 Fire Dragons, upgrading one to an Exarch, and giving him Crack Shot and a Dragons Breath Flamer. Supplement that with 1-2 units of Storm Guardians with 2x Flamers and a Warlock with Destructor, and 2 units of Dire Avengers with Bladestorm and Defend. Mount everything up in Wave Serpents, then use leftover points for a pair of Fire Prisms and either a DAVU Falcon or a unit of War Walkers. And of course, take Eldrad. All told the list should be able to handle MEQ's, horde armies and Terminators without too much trouble as long as you are very careful with placement.

    jy2 wrote:Because we wanted to see how one army would do against the other as well. I also don't look at things in a vacuum as well and you're right, it isn't just paladins versus fire dragons. My analogy to the basketball game is actually quite accurate IMO. Kobe's Lakers versus Lebron's Heat. You want your team to win. That is the ultimate satisfaction. You want the role-players to contribute. You want the the team to do well on the whole because it is, after all, a team sport. But secretly inside, you also want to see Kobe go one-on-one against Lebron and see one do well over the other. Now it isn't actually necessary that each must be able to overcome the other in order for their team to win, but it would be all the more sweet if they did and their team won as well. Stars help to sensationalize the matchups and the game. Yes, it is a team sport, but no matter how you put it, people will always look up to and compare the stars. It's unavoidable.

    It just happened that in this game, no matter how un-eldar-like my opponent played, both of our playstyles brought our 2 "stars" into a confrontation as my opponent wanted to kill my deathstar. And were it the other way around with me playing mechdar, I would have done the same thing. Who says you can't try to have your cake and eat it too?

    I try to let the audience know that this game doesn't accurately represent how the results would have been under more normal circumstances (i.e. average dice). And I certainly hope that people don't come out from this battle report thinking that Draigowing in indestructable. What I hope that readers can take from this report is that any army can beat any other army on any given day no matter the army list mis-match. Even if it is a David-vs-Goliath type matchup, don't give up. There is always a chance to win.

    Aside from the fact that I absolutely despise Basketball and have no desire to watch any of the players you named do anything except hang themselves, my point is that in this particular matchup, as the Eldar player, I WOULDN'T have a desire (secret or otherwise) to see that confrontation until I can make it happen on favorable terms. I'm not going to risk losing the game badly by dumping the core of my army in front of a huge unit of Paladins that will absolutely slaughter them if I fail, and that's what SabrX did. And he paid for it badly.

    YOU guys might have had a desire to see that, but I know how it ends. Either I roll well and I win, or I roll badly and I lose. The whole point of my argument thus far is that in most games, casual or otherwise, one player usually doesn't have the desire to recklessly throw his all-stars into combat with his opponents all-stars if it means he could potentially suffer a big loss because of it. What he WANTS to do is kill off his opponents all-stars, or their supporting units, using his all-stars to maximum advantage and throwing them up against targets they can easily kill.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/25 08:31:02


    Post by: SabrX


    Aldarionn wrote:
    If your list is designed to counter all MEQ's then I think you might want to reconsider the 30 Fire Dragons. They are an extremely effective unit if used properly, but 30 is overkill by about a mile. If you want to have effective anti MEQ and Anti-Horde rolled into one unit, I suggest taking 8 Fire Dragons, upgrading one to an Exarch, and giving him Crack Shot and a Dragons Breath Flamer.

    It's difficult to create a take-all comers list that will handle both horde and MEQ effectively. Triple template Storm Guardians, Dragon Breath Flamer Fire Dragons, Fire Prisms, and Blade Storm Dire Avengers isn't enough to handle the infamous 180 green tide build nor will it be enough to handle Nids MC-bash featuring a lot of Termagants. It also won't be enough to handle the new Necron scarab-swarm. The best Eldar unit that can handle hordes effectively is the Night Spinner. However, the Night Spinner isn't effective against most MEQ. I've decided to focus my list towards the most popular 40k army, which is MEQ.

    YOU guys might have had a desire to see that, but I know how it ends. Either I roll well and I win, or I roll badly and I lose. The whole point of my argument thus far is that in most games, casual or otherwise, one player usually doesn't have the desire to recklessly throw his all-stars into combat with his opponents all-stars if it means he could potentially suffer a big loss because of it. What he WANTS to do is kill off his opponents all-stars, or their supporting units, using his all-stars to maximum advantage and throwing them up against targets they can easily kill.

    Well I'm not like most Eldar players, and I certainly don't want to be peer pressured into playing like so. It's your volition whether to read one's battle reports or not, but please don't force your ideology on others. Criticism is good, but dictating another player's play style isn't. Whether my decisions is good or bad, I'll make the final say. It's my army and I'll do whatever I damn please with it.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/25 10:33:25


    Post by: torgoch



    I liked it. I admire this 'throw caution to the wind' approach of the Eldar. Don't give a monkeys about which rules you got right or wrong. It was your game to make the mistakes, not mine.

    However, you really should get the models sorted out. I like the weathering on the Storm Raven, but this is all about theatre, and some of your actors have got the wrong costumes on!


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/25 18:53:18


    Post by: jy2


    Aldarionn wrote:Aside from the fact that I absolutely despise Basketball and have no desire to watch any of the players you named do anything except hang themselves, my point is that in this particular matchup, as the Eldar player, I WOULDN'T have a desire (secret or otherwise) to see that confrontation until I can make it happen on favorable terms. I'm not going to risk losing the game badly by dumping the core of my army in front of a huge unit of Paladins that will absolutely slaughter them if I fail, and that's what SabrX did. And he paid for it badly.

    YOU guys might have had a desire to see that, but I know how it ends. Either I roll well and I win, or I roll badly and I lose. The whole point of my argument thus far is that in most games, casual or otherwise, one player usually doesn't have the desire to recklessly throw his all-stars into combat with his opponents all-stars if it means he could potentially suffer a big loss because of it. What he WANTS to do is kill off his opponents all-stars, or their supporting units, using his all-stars to maximum advantage and throwing them up against targets they can easily kill.

    That's perfectly fine. Your style (and many others, I'm sure) is the more cautious, conservative approach that will optimize your chances for winning. It's a great eldar strategy. Heck, if I was playing eldar, I'd probably play that way also in most games. Eldar is not the confrontational army that many others are. We get that, both me and my opponent.

    But the fact of the matter is, in this game, my opponent decided to take a gamble. He decided he wanted to play aggressively. His goal was not just to win the game, but to see if he could take down my paladins. He was well aware of his other options but decided to forgo them in order to achieve his own personal goal. And he was willing to accept the consequences should his attempt fail.



    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/26 03:21:59


    Post by: -666-


    The Dragons did get the opportunity to soak the Paladins with some hot melta love but jy2's cover saves were smoking. What can you do?


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/27 01:43:06


    Post by: Isseyfaran


    This game is full of fail.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    But anyway Red Corsair, I am looking forward to see YOUR battle report


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/27 02:42:02


    Post by: jy2


    -666- wrote:The Dragons did get the opportunity to soak the Paladins with some hot melta love but jy2's cover saves were smoking. What can you do?

    Yeah, what can you do? No matter what tactic you apply, when your dice fails (or your opponent's dice succeeds), it just makes your tactic look worse than how it really is.


    Isseyfaran wrote:This game is full of fail.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    But anyway Red Corsair, I am looking forward to see YOUR battle report

    As in dice? Or tactics? Or both?



    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/27 03:10:46


    Post by: Isseyfaran


    Everything. Dice, tactics, rules. So much that it almost has no value in it anymore, except for its entertainment value maybe.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/27 03:34:38


    Post by: jy2


    Isseyfaran wrote:Everything. Dice, tactics, rules. So much that it almost has no value in it anymore, except for its entertainment value maybe.

    Sorry to hear.

    Rules, we can improve on.

    Tactics is subjective.

    Dice, we just have no control over.

    But at least you enjoyed it.



    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/27 04:01:35


    Post by: BeefCakeSoup


    -666- wrote:The Dragons did get the opportunity to soak the Paladins with some hot melta love but jy2's cover saves were smoking. What can you do?


    Weigh that dude's dice!

    ~.~


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/27 04:19:28


    Post by: Isseyfaran


    Actually, obvious bad tactics are bad tactics. There is almost no subjectivity in it.

    But, I will correct myself on one aspect. This BatRep actually has value in it apart from entertainment. It showcases the bad tactics and what should or should not be done.

    Red Corsair was a jerk anyway.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/27 14:46:31


    Post by: calypso2ts


    Isseyfaran wrote:Actually, obvious bad tactics are bad tactics. There is almost no subjectivity in it.

    But, I will correct myself on one aspect. This BatRep actually has value in it apart from entertainment. It showcases the bad tactics and what should or should not be done.

    Red Corsair was a jerk anyway.


    Thank you for providing such insightful commentary in an aggressive manner towards someone who volunteered their time to share an experience. I know their contribution to the community pales in comparison to your own, extensive work writing up battle reports, tactica articles and sharing your experience.

    Your post does have one redeeming trait. It showcases how to express yourself in an unnecessarily negative and slightly offensive manner.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/27 14:49:33


    Post by: Isseyfaran


    calypso2ts wrote:
    Isseyfaran wrote:Actually, obvious bad tactics are bad tactics. There is almost no subjectivity in it.

    But, I will correct myself on one aspect. This BatRep actually has value in it apart from entertainment. It showcases the bad tactics and what should or should not be done.

    Red Corsair was a jerk anyway.


    Thank you for providing such insightful commentary in an aggressive manner towards someone who volunteered their time to share an experience. I know their contribution to the community pales in comparison to your own, extensive work writing up battle reports, tactica articles and sharing your experience.

    Your post does have one redeeming trait. It showcases how to express yourself in an unnecessarily negative and slightly offensive manner.


    I am like the one out of 10 or so here who said the same thing?

    So, did you even bother reading the whole thread, or was just trolling?

    The part about the bad tactics and what should or should not be done was a genuine comment. It is useful sometimes to learn from other's mistake. You need to learn to see things from a broader perspective.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/27 15:04:18


    Post by: calypso2ts


    Ohh so what you meant to say was...

    "Thank you for sharing this battle report. It is interesting to see that Fire Dragons really cannot take on a Draigo Wing army head on. I tend to use FD's (and Eldar in general)as a scalpel, although I appreciate SabrX's aggressive approach. I think with Eldar a direct assault can, predictably, lead to this kind of result.

    If faced with a direct confrontation I probably would have tried to use one FD to screen the others in this case. Did your opponent consider that, and what limitations were there to that strategy?"

    I read the whole thread, you just happened to decide to pile on in a manner that was rude. People who receive that kind of treatment may decide it is not worth sharing with the rest of us. I am sure that means you intend to share to keep the community rich and vibrant? If this is not the case, learn to critique and have a constructive discussion rather than provide excessively negative statements.

    This is also a good life skill in general to have.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/27 15:35:23


    Post by: Isseyfaran


    calypso2ts wrote:Ohh so what you meant to say was...

    "Thank you for sharing this battle report. It is interesting to see that Fire Dragons really cannot take on a Draigo Wing army head on. I tend to use FD's (and Eldar in general)as a scalpel, although I appreciate SabrX's aggressive approach. I think with Eldar a direct assault can, predictably, lead to this kind of result.

    If faced with a direct confrontation I probably would have tried to use one FD to screen the others in this case. Did your opponent consider that, and what limitations were there to that strategy?"

    I read the whole thread, you just happened to decide to pile on in a manner that was rude. People who receive that kind of treatment may decide it is not worth sharing with the rest of us. I am sure that means you intend to share to keep the community rich and vibrant? If this is not the case, learn to critique and have a constructive discussion rather than provide excessively negative statements.

    This is also a good life skill in general to have.


    Well if you read the whole thread and what others have contributed, then typing the above in bold shows that you obviously could not comprehend what people are saying.

    Reading/comprehension skill is also a good life skill to have . Pick it up. But if you are just trying to pick a fight, i m always prepared to make you a fool of yourself .


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/27 15:55:13


    Post by: calypso2ts


    You can lead a horse to water, but sometimes it drowns itself.

    I will stop diverting Jy2's thread for the discussion, if you would like to continue then we can do so in PM's.

    I recognize there were also rules mistakes made in the game, I chose to grab one particular point (engaging aggressively versus using Eldar mobility to dictate the conditions of battle), but I am sure a reasonably polite critique could be developed for other tactical and rules based scenarios as well.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/27 18:41:08


    Post by: Eiluj The Farseer


    I would love to see the Eldar have something reliably solid that can crack Draigo Wing and GK. Sadll with an old codex and our squishy T3 I do not think we can do this. The GK are more build for anti-psy or xenos vs demons now, which is interesting since they are supposed to be demon hunters (elite ordo-Malleus, not ordo-xenos). But that aside. I liked the idea of trying to use fire dragons full squad of 10 x3, but I do not think they can reliably kill them all in 1 turn or enough to stop them. After that one chance it is pretty much all over. I have often wondered about a squad of 10 fire Dragons + Eldrad with a squad of 10 Harlies (2 fusion pistols, kisses, pw with troope master, SS). Shoot the heck out of the squad doomed, fortune the harlies and if can pull off guide the dragons. I bet that would put more of a dent in the palidins that 3 squads of dragons and it would tie up the palidans so potentially the dragons could load up and go after those darn psyflemen. Just a thought. I still think using tank shock is important too and I think the GK player got lucky on the first DOG. Also if can help it try to not land on difficult terrain on your turn to avoid those DTT, I always seem to roll 1'2 too..... Good luck


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/28 00:46:02


    Post by: -666-


    I think lots of readers here wrote off GK as auto losing this game now there is an involuntary acerbic kick back much like the death rattle of an Eldrad when he was sucked through the warp hole by Chaos.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/28 01:36:14


    Post by: Isseyfaran


    calypso2ts wrote:
    I will stop diverting Jy2's thread for the discussion, if you would like to continue then we can do so in PM's.



    You shouldnt have even started. None of your comments was the least bit constructive So I m not sure you should even preach about constructive comments


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/28 02:30:20


    Post by: jy2


    Eiluj The Farseer wrote:I would love to see the Eldar have something reliably solid that can crack Draigo Wing and GK. Sadll with an old codex and our squishy T3 I do not think we can do this. The GK are more build for anti-psy or xenos vs demons now, which is interesting since they are supposed to be demon hunters (elite ordo-Malleus, not ordo-xenos). But that aside. I liked the idea of trying to use fire dragons full squad of 10 x3, but I do not think they can reliably kill them all in 1 turn or enough to stop them. After that one chance it is pretty much all over. I have often wondered about a squad of 10 fire Dragons + Eldrad with a squad of 10 Harlies (2 fusion pistols, kisses, pw with troope master, SS). Shoot the heck out of the squad doomed, fortune the harlies and if can pull off guide the dragons. I bet that would put more of a dent in the palidins that 3 squads of dragons and it would tie up the palidans so potentially the dragons could load up and go after those darn psyflemen. Just a thought. I still think using tank shock is important too and I think the GK player got lucky on the first DOG. Also if can help it try to not land on difficult terrain on your turn to avoid those DTT, I always seem to roll 1'2 too..... Good luck

    In an objectives-based game, I still think that eldar (or more specifically, mechdar) can compete with any army. And in the case of foot armies like my Draigowing, IMO mechdar actually has the upper hand. Honestly, they don't have to literally crack Draigowing. Denial, as Aldarionn endorses, and then a last-minute contest is also a great strategy against them. It's just that in this battle, my opponent wanted to try to break my paladins so he took a gamble. And IMO, he had a reasonably good chance to. If anyone could do it, I would put my money on 30 fire dragons backed up by Guide/Doom. As for shooting the heck out of paladins, it could also work, though I wouldn't say it is a reliable strategy. I've seen (and played) paladins that have just absorbed a ridiculous amount of shots.

    As for anti-xenos, I actually feel that eldar is a very difficult army for the grey knights to deal with thanks to Runes of Warding. Both eldar and tau usually give me a lot of problems, and their normally weak troops/infantry don't really care about GK deathstars.


    -666- wrote:I think lots of readers here wrote off GK as auto losing this game now there is an involuntary acerbic kick back much like the death rattle of an Eldrad when he was sucked through the warp hole by Chaos.

    Lol.



    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/28 03:04:50


    Post by: -666-


    You owned Eldrad. Let the haters be hating. You a very bad man.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/28 15:36:38


    Post by: Eiluj The Farseer


    I have had a lot of luck annihilating terminators with Harlequins and a Farseerwith doom and fortune. In this case I wonder what 10-20 Fire Dragons and 10 harlequins with Eldrad and Yriel would do. I bet they would have a better chance at killing Draigo and his pompous paladins . I like fire dragons, don't get me wrong, but I do not think 30 fire dragons can reliably kill off a Draigo wing. I think with a CC unit like Harlies, I bet they would stand a much better chance. Harlies by themselves with paladins not so much, with their wound alocation and 2 wound shenanigans. Just my opinion, wish you guys were closer would love to get in a game. Cheers and thanks for the battle report great work


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/28 17:33:28


    Post by: -666-


    I don't think that Harlequins can generate enough attacks to wipe the squad on the charge let alone reduce them in number by a significant margin.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/28 18:20:59


    Post by: Artemo


    I have found that Harlequins do poorly against Paladins but Doom and Fortune might well help.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/29 06:33:17


    Post by: Dash2021


    Before the report was posted, I made a comment about the lack of star engines/stones on the WS's. I feel the result here supports that argument. Losing the 2 fragons (still using this phrase) per squad to get those upgrades would have A) bought more movement for Saber to force the confrontation where he wanted it, meaning away from area terrain B) allowed him to block off the fire path after the shots had been made, allowing a second turn of shooting.

    Had Saber done one or the other of those, this is a very different game. In fairness, had the serpents pilots not been hitting the sauce early that game (immobilized/run over a hammer), Saber could have achieved B) with the one Star engine serpent he had. Still, relying on one unit to do something crucial makes me uncomfortable, as I feel one of the primary strengths of Eldar is redundancy. Also, as already noted, the game was a "for fun" match up to see what would happen when 30 Fragons go up against Draigowing. It was not a serious comp., thus all we can really say is that the outcome is most likely not representative.

    Still, if the points had been found for the upgrades even this game may have gone differently. Having 5 fully upgraded serpents as opposed to 6 bare bones would have allowed more control over the battle via one of the primary strengths of Eldar: redundancy.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2011/12/29 16:40:54


    Post by: jy2


    Eiluj The Farseer wrote:I have had a lot of luck annihilating terminators with Harlequins and a Farseerwith doom and fortune. In this case I wonder what 10-20 Fire Dragons and 10 harlequins with Eldrad and Yriel would do. I bet they would have a better chance at killing Draigo and his pompous paladins . I like fire dragons, don't get me wrong, but I do not think 30 fire dragons can reliably kill off a Draigo wing. I think with a CC unit like Harlies, I bet they would stand a much better chance. Harlies by themselves with paladins not so much, with their wound alocation and 2 wound shenanigans. Just my opinion, wish you guys were closer would love to get in a game. Cheers and thanks for the battle report great work

    Basically, it would require a team effort of multiple units, whether dragons or harlequins, to take them down. Any 1 single unit in a vacuum won't be able to do much by themselves. Paladins are quite resilient in combat due to 2++ wardings staves and 4++ swords they can allocate upon. I once took out 20 assault terminators with Draigo, libbie and 20 paladins....and I only lost 2 guys!

    And if all else fails, tankshock!


    Dash2021 wrote:Before the report was posted, I made a comment about the lack of star engines/stones on the WS's. I feel the result here supports that argument. Losing the 2 fragons (still using this phrase) per squad to get those upgrades would have A) bought more movement for Saber to force the confrontation where he wanted it, meaning away from area terrain B) allowed him to block off the fire path after the shots had been made, allowing a second turn of shooting.

    Had Saber done one or the other of those, this is a very different game. In fairness, had the serpents pilots not been hitting the sauce early that game (immobilized/run over a hammer), Saber could have achieved B) with the one Star engine serpent he had. Still, relying on one unit to do something crucial makes me uncomfortable, as I feel one of the primary strengths of Eldar is redundancy. Also, as already noted, the game was a "for fun" match up to see what would happen when 30 Fragons go up against Draigowing. It was not a serious comp., thus all we can really say is that the outcome is most likely not representative.

    Still, if the points had been found for the upgrades even this game may have gone differently. Having 5 fully upgraded serpents as opposed to 6 bare bones would have allowed more control over the battle via one of the primary strengths of Eldar: redundancy.

    I agree. Star engines would let them tankshocked twice per their turn as well as other move shenanigans! I would have had a heart attack had I have to take that many LD tests!

    But I guess my opponent didn't spam them because:

    1) He wanted 30 fire dragons, not 24-26, just like I wanted 10 paladins, not 8-9. It's a preference thing and what he wanted to try out.

    2) More units - skimmers and firepower - and less upgrades.

    3) People have a tendency to use what they are familiar with. My opponent doesn't normally run star engines in his normal lists, just as I don't normally use incinerators in my Draigowing list, even if I am facing a large horde army. It's an instinctive thing.

    Maybe if we have a future Draigowing-vs-mechdar battle, he may swap out some FD's for some star engines, especially now that he's already experimented with his 30 fragon build.




    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2012/01/03 16:51:32


    Post by: Frothmog


    Just one question about the initial setup.

    In Dawn of War you can only set up 2 troops and 1 HQ. So you would not have been able to have Draigo, Libby, and 10 man paladin squad would you?

    I don't even think this is the first battle rep I have seen where people do this, but no one catches it.


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2012/01/03 17:16:56


    Post by: jy2


    Oopsies. Good catch. Lol.

    I can't believe I didn't catch that mistake, even when I was writing the report.



    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2012/01/06 02:38:24


    Post by: Eiluj The Farseer


    I agree without multiple units working together we can not take out paladins. That is how Eldar work most of the time though. Nice bat rep


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2012/01/06 03:17:48


    Post by: SabrX


    Frothmog wrote:Just one question about the initial setup.

    In Dawn of War you can only set up 2 troops and 1 HQ. So you would not have been able to have Draigo, Libby, and 10 man paladin squad would you?

    I don't even think this is the first battle rep I have seen where people do this, but no one catches it.


    Wow, four pages, and no one caught that mistake! This calls for a rematch!


    2K The Draigowing Challenge....or How to Kill Paladins With Eldar (Completed) @ 2012/01/06 06:57:15


    Post by: jy2


    SabrX wrote:
    Wow, four pages, and no one caught that mistake! This calls for a rematch!

    Anytime, buddy, anytime.

    Just don't expect me to repeat the performance that I did in this game.