I had some time to test some lists and some detachments last weeks. And i m once more changing my orientation.
I have now decided that if no change is to be done to guard then a detachemnt big or small is a must take unf inside our lists.
YOu will not have enough cp ever to play all units. IF you are making a list that includes stygies infiltration maybe a knight /robots and priests then the cp flow extremely high. Not to mention other armeis that would spend like 10 cp in one round to really make the difference. And they will
Tried the Castelan and for me it didnt do what i really wanted.
I dont know why so much exitment maybe becuase others dont play ad mech but honestly the same efford i spend to protect my robots same i need to protect that castelan. And i usually wont take more than 4 robots. Since as its obvious a Castelan kill removes 600+ points from your army and i consider 440 4x robots enough to loose and not start to get nervous.
Every game i lost the castelan early i lost the game. Its v v hard to keep him alive. And even if it is a real fire magnet its not enough of a beast to be kept alive. Maybe if you play it like the ATc list full of Guard or even better Brigade of guard and castelan. Thats the best i consider atm for a castelan.
Seen a list running around with 15 Ironstrider +++ dragoons balistarii and i consider it more valid and better result that a castelan tbh. Though i wont make such a list for various reasons i had to say i like it better than a castelan.
Gallant seems to be really hot atm. ITs cheap its bad ass and it can become a beast in melee or it can team up with another gallant. So id cosnider adding 2x Gallant for that point invest any day vs a Castelan.
Robots and Cawl is a road ad mech most likely needs to keep in mind. And since there will always be need to screen and Cawl needs to buff actual units i dont like to consider helverins a an option unless we are detachment restricted and i need to take a super heavy for the cp. IF not then the helverins do not add so much more than a icarus Onager ofc point wise and Cawl buff wise. I know they got differences but with Cawl onagers mix nice.
Loved the Drill. Really i love it. DO NOT DEEP STRIKE IT with priests. I dont know about vanguard maybe it could be a valid deep strike option especially if you got 2x5x2 plasma in maybe deep strike would fit more but for melee priests infiltration is the way to go. Various reasons but trust me Infiltration is meant to be for drill with priests.
Dragoons need to be decided each game if you gonna infiltrate them or not. Against an assault army you need to consider keeping them in your lines as Screen and use the cp to interrupt enemy melee order. Those 2 cp are better invested
against heavy assault armies.Especially if you got a Dragoon heavy list.
What is becoming really interesting for me is the option of mixing dogmas.
And since i m heading towards Ad mech armies my concept again heads towards.
Competitive play.
Guard with one pshych and cp recycling. 3x mortar teams can be used all these are extremely efficient especially the ability to recycle cp and deny one enemy pshych.
Graia Skitarii. Drills and plasma definetly preist with drill.
Dragoons and Gallant-sss. As well as Onagers Icarus or not.
Brigades again Valid. Either it ould be a Guard one or a Mix Dogma Ad mech.
Could really consider a mix dogma brigade really. its my next big mix testing .Dunno but seem so valid atm. Even if its fun games to play solo ad mech but those brigades could deliveer if you consider mixing Dogmas. It just bypass the stupidity of our codex. Big cp pool and all options inside one detachment less tax. Now we got some options seems like real fun.
So Castelan not working for me id prefer Ad mech for now at least. 3 knights in a super heavy detachment maybe for a 1750 even so wont be a Castelan.
Honestly I'm just so happy that the Drill has opened up so many potential ideas so that we aren't stuck with Cawlbots and Lucius/Stygies. Graia Vanguard in a Drill is pretty dope.
So Castelan not working for me id prefer Ad mech for now at least. 3 knights in a super heavy detachment maybe for a 1750 even so wont be a Castelan.
Bad dice are bad dice, but if you take house Raven you should be able to get the Castellan to a 3++ while re-rolling 1s. That does cost 3 command points to get to 3++ and if you're playing dark eldar your stratagem might get cancelled out, but that sounds pretty survivable to me.
Its not what i wanted to find to suplement Ad mech. It dies easily from melee and if i need to make the same efford to protect him as i would from any other arty gun line id preffer the Cawl star Nothing wrong on Castelan ut i dont beleive i need him so badly when i already got Robots. Was more existed from the Drill eventually and being able to field even more Ad mech. While the Gallant seems to be a real Option for us. Cheap durable Assault
lash92 wrote: But keep in mind that a Crawler is much more durable than a Ballistarii.
Depends on what is shooting it. Knights actually struggle to deal good damage against it, and you can make Castellan Plasma overload with your -1 or -2 to hit. But generally speaking, yes, due to the invulnerable save.
Yoda79 wrote: Tried the Castelan and for me it didnt do what i really wanted.
I dont know why so much exitment maybe becuase others dont play ad mech but honestly the same efford i spend to protect my robots same i need to protect that castelan. And i usually wont take more than 4 robots. Since as its obvious a Castelan kill removes 600+ points from your army and i consider 440 4x robots enough to loose and not start to get nervous.
Every game i lost the castelan early i lost the game. Its v v hard to keep him alive. And even if it is a real fire magnet its not enough of a beast to be kept alive. Maybe if you play it like the ATc list full of Guard or even better Brigade of guard and castelan. Thats the best i consider atm for a castelan.
Seen a list running around with 15 Ironstrider +++ dragoons balistarii and i consider it more valid and better result that a castelan tbh. Though i wont make such a list for various reasons i had to say i like it better than a castelan.
This is exactly what I was talking about. People shouldn't assume that Knights make armies win. It's the other way around. Knights need to be de-risked! This means taking things that can quickly remove threats to the Knight as well as handle the things with really high opportunity cost for the Knight to shoot, especially minus to hit enemies. This is why pairing a Knight with alpha striking melee and a ton of Hellhounds or flamer hits is so common. That or you take a Taranis Gallant with Ion Bulwark and Sacred Ion for suicide charging.
Ironic. I remember people saying Dragoons were going away because of Castellan. If anything, they are more common than ever. It's actually Crawlers and Robots that are pressured by Knights..
Suzuteo wrote: I was crunching some math, and I discovered something interesting. With the Doctrina, a Lascannon Ballistarius outdamages an Icarus Crawler against Hemlock and Wave Serpent, whereas Icarus is strictly better against Battlesuits and Dark Eldar vehicles without -1 to hit. Autocannons have a niche in bringing down Dark Eldar vehicles with the -1 to hit. Of course, the Ironstriders are good against non-flying units too.
Here are the points per damage:
vs. Hemlock
Icarus: 49.69911504
Auto Balli: 50.625
*WINNER* Las Balli: 43.97142857
vs. Wave Serpent
Icarus: 48.4137931
Auto Balli: 90
*WINNER* Las Balli: 38.475
vs. Tau Commander
*WINNER* Icarus: 22.82926829
Auto Balli: 33.75
Las Balli: 29.31428571
vs. Razorwing/Venom
Icarus: 28.7704918
*WINNER* Auto Balli: 25.3125
Las Balli: 36.64285714
vs. Ravager
*WINNER* Icarus: 23.01639344
Auto Balli: 25.3125
Las Balli: 36.64285714
And yeah, these numbers also sort of underscore why I am not a big fan of Autocannons, on both Ironstriders and Helverins. They are way too niche.
Interesting that even if the Icarus isn't always the best, it definitely seems to be the most consistent of the 3, usually it's not far from the winner and whenever it wins out it wins out big.
In my experience I love the onagers, if only because at least then I have something I can repair giving me a point to having all those techpriests around. They've consistently been MVP's and my opponents hate them. That said I'm not trying to beat a major tournament anytime soon but I feel they're a solid and dependable unit that never feels like a wasted slot.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Honestly I'm just so happy that the Drill has opened up so many potential ideas so that we aren't stuck with Cawlbots and Lucius/Stygies. Graia Vanguard in a Drill is pretty dope.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Honestly I'm just so happy that the Drill has opened up so many potential ideas so that we aren't stuck with Cawlbots and Lucius/Stygies. Graia Vanguard in a Drill is pretty dope.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Honestly I'm just so happy that the Drill has opened up so many potential ideas so that we aren't stuck with Cawlbots and Lucius/Stygies. Graia Vanguard in a Drill is pretty dope.
Sounds awful to me TBH. Fulgurites or forget it.
Not sure how that sounds awful.
Same here. Drill is amazing all on its own, and it hides 12 of any fragile unit you want to pop out and blow things up at will. Vanguard with Plasma Caliver and Fulgurites both suffered from the same problem: they melted before getting close enough to make their points back. Both benefit immensely from this, our one and only transport.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Honestly I'm just so happy that the Drill has opened up so many potential ideas so that we aren't stuck with Cawlbots and Lucius/Stygies. Graia Vanguard in a Drill is pretty dope.
Sounds awful to me TBH. Fulgurites or forget it.
Not sure how that sounds awful.
Same here. Drill is amazing all on its own, and it hides 12 of any fragile unit you want to pop out and blow things up at will. Vanguard with Plasma Caliver and Fulgurites both suffered from the same problem: they melted before getting close enough to make their points back. Both benefit immensely from this, our one and only transport.
For it's points, the new transport is taking the spot of my Neutron Onagers. 1d3 melta shots on turn 2 does roughly the same average damage as the Onager (maybe less to account for the 3 damage minimum on the Onager), but the transport capability and extra melee option makes it a no brainer. It's one of our best options for having an assault unit that will survive to the next turn and be able to pull back, allowing more shooting. All of our other options before were too flimsy to do that. Short of getting something with a fly keyword, this transport is a must include. Which is nice.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Honestly I'm just so happy that the Drill has opened up so many potential ideas so that we aren't stuck with Cawlbots and Lucius/Stygies. Graia Vanguard in a Drill is pretty dope.
Sounds awful to me TBH. Fulgurites or forget it.
Not sure how that sounds awful.
Same here. Drill is amazing all on its own, and it hides 12 of any fragile unit you want to pop out and blow things up at will. Vanguard with Plasma Caliver and Fulgurites both suffered from the same problem: they melted before getting close enough to make their points back. Both benefit immensely from this, our one and only transport.
Pop out a whole 10 man squad of Plasma Vanguard and pop the bonus hitting Strategem. It makes for an excellent hit I promise ya guys and gals.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Honestly I'm just so happy that the Drill has opened up so many potential ideas so that we aren't stuck with Cawlbots and Lucius/Stygies. Graia Vanguard in a Drill is pretty dope.
Sounds awful to me TBH. Fulgurites or forget it.
Not sure how that sounds awful.
Same here. Drill is amazing all on its own, and it hides 12 of any fragile unit you want to pop out and blow things up at will. Vanguard with Plasma Caliver and Fulgurites both suffered from the same problem: they melted before getting close enough to make their points back. Both benefit immensely from this, our one and only transport.
Pop out a whole 10 man squad of Plasma Vanguard and pop the bonus hitting Strategem. It makes for an excellent hit I promise ya guys and gals.
There is a reason why we dont see any plasma drops anymore. Its really not that good and it is freaking expensive. What is a vanguard drop in a drill with plasmas about to kill and how is the drop not gonna get killed right away in the following turn?
I registered for a tournament in November and they comped what I think will happen either in September or November. No CP recycling on Stratagems/CPs used for detachments the bearer/warlord is not a part of. Finally I wont have to read about Grand Strategist/Kurlovs Aquila Astra MIlitarum detachments in this thread again. I hope. Fingers crossed.
I said drill is good with fulgurites only. Plasma vanguard suck ass. How is the drill different from just deepstriking them? They suck either way. If it was 10 dudes with plasma - sure,maybe. But now it's 3. Really not worth it to deepstrike them, and transporting them is even worse. The damn thing isn't open-topped so the guys will die after they shoot once.
Last time I tried using plasma vanguard was me deepstriking 2 squads, dominus and infiltrators, killing 3 noise marines and having only dominus survive for my next turn. It was glorious.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I said drill is good with fulgurites only. Plasma vanguard suck ass. How is the drill different from just deepstriking them? They suck either way. If it was 10 dudes with plasma - sure,maybe. But now it's 3. Really not worth it to deepstrike them, and transporting them is even worse. The damn thing isn't open-topped so the guys will die after they shoot once.
Last time I tried using plasma vanguard was me deepstriking 2 squads, dominus and infiltrators, killing 3 noise marines and having only dominus survive for my next turn. It was glorious.
You are forgetting that the vanguard are standing next to a giant drill and, if they land the charge, give Toughness -1 in close combat. When you drop 3 transports, with 30 guys, and get to re-roll one dice on the charge...Chances are good you will get 2 or 3 charges off. A LOT of units will die to that, especially if they have to dump overwatch into Toughness 8 transports. The strategy is badass for everything involved.
There are plenty of things I can shoot with from across the table that does a similar if not much more efficient job as a 4 plasma caliver. To use a 130pt transport to move something that is already outlcassed closer to death seems pointless. The -1 toughness is irrelevant to the drill with its str 14 attacks so unless you're dropping ANOTHER drill with fulgurites or another type of melee unit that would benefit from the -1 toughness, again it seems pointless.
I mean we could easily just infiltrate the fulgurites without a drill, but there's still a risk they might not make it in to combat due to overwatch; You're pretty much assured the squad will make a 3" charge, it's the overwatch thats the killer. So infiltrating the drill and charging THAT in first avoids whatever the priests wanted to charge from firing back, with the added benefit of the drill actually being pretty good in combat.
infiltrators and ruststalkers would be ideal candidates for a drill-infiltrated delivery. if they were any good in combat. and didn't cost a fortune.
Dedicated melee does seem like they would be the perfect choice for delivery via armoured transport.
There are plenty of things I can shoot with from across the table that does a similar if not much more efficient job as a 4 plasma caliver. To use a 130pt transport to move something that is already outlcassed closer to death seems pointless. The -1 toughness is irrelevant to the drill with its str 14 attacks so unless you're dropping ANOTHER drill with fulgurites or another type of melee unit that would benefit from the -1 toughness, again it seems pointless.
I mean we could easily just infiltrate the fulgurites without a drill, but there's still a risk they might not make it in to combat due to overwatch; You're pretty much assured the squad will make a 3" charge, it's the overwatch thats the killer. So infiltrating the drill and charging THAT in first avoids whatever the priests wanted to charge from firing back, with the added benefit of the drill actually being pretty good in combat.
infiltrators and ruststalkers would be ideal candidates for a drill-infiltrated delivery. if they were any good in combat. and didn't cost a fortune.
Dedicated melee does seem like they would be the perfect choice for delivery via armoured transport.
To each their own. I like the benefit of shooting on top of assault, and I've also got about 100 skitarii infantry models that I'm dying to use. Fulgarites are amazing in close combat, and if you've got the models or the cash to get them, go for it. To me, it's a difference of transport and infantry costing 210pts vs 290pts altogether (or more if you put all 12 fulgarites in there). I wouldn't even run plasma on vanguard, as their regular gun is pretty decent at shaving off vehicle wounds already.
Also, as to the deepstrike options: That implies taking Lucius, rather than Mars. I like the option of having my troops do mortal wounds to whatever is in range. Maybe I'm just jaded from fighting Harlequin/Eldar all the time, but against invul saves on everyone, the basic gun with no AP is just as useful as plasma of any kind, and more shots with mortal wounds are even better. Stationary Cawl bots tend to get ripped to shreds by Harlequins (and the new haywire guns they got in their codex just make it so much worse, since the bots count as vehicles).
There are plenty of things I can shoot with from across the table that does a similar if not much more efficient job as a 4 plasma caliver. To use a 130pt transport to move something that is already outlcassed closer to death seems pointless. The -1 toughness is irrelevant to the drill with its str 14 attacks so unless you're dropping ANOTHER drill with fulgurites or another type of melee unit that would benefit from the -1 toughness, again it seems pointless.
I mean we could easily just infiltrate the fulgurites without a drill, but there's still a risk they might not make it in to combat due to overwatch; You're pretty much assured the squad will make a 3" charge, it's the overwatch thats the killer. So infiltrating the drill and charging THAT in first avoids whatever the priests wanted to charge from firing back, with the added benefit of the drill actually being pretty good in combat.
infiltrators and ruststalkers would be ideal candidates for a drill-infiltrated delivery. if they were any good in combat. and didn't cost a fortune.
Dedicated melee does seem like they would be the perfect choice for delivery via armoured transport.
To each their own. I like the benefit of shooting on top of assault, and I've also got about 100 skitarii infantry models that I'm dying to use. Fulgarites are amazing in close combat, and if you've got the models or the cash to get them, go for it. To me, it's a difference of transport and infantry costing 210pts vs 290pts altogether (or more if you put all 12 fulgarites in there). I wouldn't even run plasma on vanguard, as their regular gun is pretty decent at shaving off vehicle wounds already.
Also, as to the deepstrike options: That implies taking Lucius, rather than Mars. I like the option of having my troops do mortal wounds to whatever is in range. Maybe I'm just jaded from fighting Harlequin/Eldar all the time, but against invul saves on everyone, the basic gun with no AP is just as useful as plasma of any kind, and more shots with mortal wounds are even better. Stationary Cawl bots tend to get ripped to shreds by Harlequins (and the new haywire guns they got in their codex just make it so much worse, since the bots count as vehicles).
Oh I wish I had the money for the fulgurites lol. Single most expensive thing in the army, more than dragoons. I've been desperately trying to find a cheaper way to kitbash them with other GW parts but it usually still ends up more expensive unless you have the parts lying around.
I'd actually like to get more skitarii infantry, they're cheap and cheerful. Though i'm more looking at making some hoplites and maybe some peltasts. I could see dropping 10 peltasts out of a drill for sure. With their blaze shot you could even pop them out out of LoS and still get your shots off forcing your enemy to manoeuvre to shoot them. while the drill charges their face to pieces.
There are plenty of things I can shoot with from across the table that does a similar if not much more efficient job as a 4 plasma caliver. To use a 130pt transport to move something that is already outlcassed closer to death seems pointless. The -1 toughness is irrelevant to the drill with its str 14 attacks so unless you're dropping ANOTHER drill with fulgurites or another type of melee unit that would benefit from the -1 toughness, again it seems pointless.
I mean we could easily just infiltrate the fulgurites without a drill, but there's still a risk they might not make it in to combat due to overwatch; You're pretty much assured the squad will make a 3" charge, it's the overwatch thats the killer. So infiltrating the drill and charging THAT in first avoids whatever the priests wanted to charge from firing back, with the added benefit of the drill actually being pretty good in combat.
infiltrators and ruststalkers would be ideal candidates for a drill-infiltrated delivery. if they were any good in combat. and didn't cost a fortune.
Dedicated melee does seem like they would be the perfect choice for delivery via armoured transport.
To each their own. I like the benefit of shooting on top of assault, and I've also got about 100 skitarii infantry models that I'm dying to use. Fulgarites are amazing in close combat, and if you've got the models or the cash to get them, go for it. To me, it's a difference of transport and infantry costing 210pts vs 290pts altogether (or more if you put all 12 fulgarites in there). I wouldn't even run plasma on vanguard, as their regular gun is pretty decent at shaving off vehicle wounds already.
Also, as to the deepstrike options: That implies taking Lucius, rather than Mars. I like the option of having my troops do mortal wounds to whatever is in range. Maybe I'm just jaded from fighting Harlequin/Eldar all the time, but against invul saves on everyone, the basic gun with no AP is just as useful as plasma of any kind, and more shots with mortal wounds are even better. Stationary Cawl bots tend to get ripped to shreds by Harlequins (and the new haywire guns they got in their codex just make it so much worse, since the bots count as vehicles).
Oh I wish I had the money for the fulgurites lol. Single most expensive thing in the army, more than dragoons. I've been desperately trying to find a cheaper way to kitbash them with other GW parts but it usually still ends up more expensive unless you have the parts lying around.
I'd actually like to get more skitarii infantry, they're cheap and cheerful. Though i'm more looking at making some hoplites and maybe some peltasts. I could see dropping 10 peltasts out of a drill for sure. With their blaze shot you could even pop them out out of LoS and still get your shots off forcing your enemy to manoeuvre to shoot them. while the drill charges their face to pieces.
I didn't think of the Peltast strategy. Pop out of the transports on the other side and shoot without LoS? Brilliant. With 3 drills you could completely stop them from being targeted, even taking the drill charge into account. That's hilarious.
Just saying, plasma became less popular because:
1) Point costs increased; no more cheap plasma.
2) -1/-2 to hit is everywhere
Plasma Vanguard are good because the Caliver is Assault 2, meaning you can fire after advancing outside of 9"; you can also walk with 12" to get rid of the minus to hit penalty from most faction traits. Doctrina+Data-tether also cancels out the -1/-2 to hit penalty. Plus, the rest of your Vanguard's Radium Carbines are actually excellent against mid-toughness, multiwound enemies. Their biggest shortfall was exactly the same as Fulgurites: fragile, with low mobility. Drills fix both problems.
In short, they do surprisingly well against minus to hit targets like Eldar/DE, unlike Scions nowadays.
Even if I'd consider spending points for plasma vang I'd seriously equip then with 1 plasma / 5 and advance them not transport them. Their really value is troop role. Move screen camp obj! Sure I could understand a cheap one plasma squad.
It changes drastically when you invest drill and 2*5*2 plasma vang. Sounds cheap it's not. 68 +68 + 134 plus two more slots most likely 2 more vang. Why? It negates the role and your trying to give them a role they cant fill.
The 134 points transport makes it for me an elite choise transport! And there I could agree there are some options peltasts priest both variations rusttalkers etc. For me that is.
I could easily take vanguard's lots of them in 1*5-6 man's with one plasma running all the map even a brigade of them. Sure but nothing to do with transport usage.
So the real question how to use a Gallant knight best of?? With my ad mech list or would you prefer something else ? Could use some in depth WT and heirlooms advice
Yoda79 wrote: Even if I'd consider spending points for plasma vang I'd seriously equip then with 1 plasma / 5 and advance them not transport them. Their really value is troop role. Move screen camp obj! Sure I could understand a cheap one plasma squad.
It changes drastically when you invest drill and 2*5*2 plasma vang. Sounds cheap it's not. 68 +68 + 134 plus two more slots most likely 2 more vang. Why? It negates the role and your trying to give them a role they cant fill.
The 134 points transport makes it for me an elite choise transport! And there I could agree there are some options peltasts priest both variations rusttalkers etc. For me that is.
I could easily take vanguard's lots of them in 1*5-6 man's with one plasma running all the map even a brigade of them. Sure but nothing to do with transport usage.
So the real question how to use a Gallant knight best of?? With my ad mech list or would you prefer something else ? Could use some in depth WT and heirlooms advice
Landstrider is really good. It’s become my go to trait on a Gallant. Has let me get turn 1 charges 2/3 of the games I’ve tried it. The other game I rolled lucky. I would say the paragon gauntlet whilst tempting isn’t necessary for a lot of match ups. It also makes the reaper sword redundant. You probably want to adhoc relic based on your match up using the stratagem. Lots of low AP mass damage then take the 2+ Save. Some big heavy hitters maybe take the 5++ in melee if you think AP-4 melee is a thing. Tailor to the game your about to play and best of luck sport
If you bring a Gallant in a Raven trio, I would bring it naked and give the second Questoris the Landstrider trait.
If you bring a Gallant alone, I would make it Taranis and give it Ion Bulwark and Armour of the Sainted Ion. 3++ for shooting, 2+ for fighting. 50% chance to zombify and fight again.
Never bring more than one Gallant. You are asking to get tarpitted; remember that you cannot charge over infantry.
I know that this isn't going to win the ITC but its a local tourney, I'm not expecting to get first I'm just wanting to make sure I can hold my own.
My thoughts behind the first list in taking the preceptor is that it buffs the Helverines which are very good at putting wounds down and popping things like venoms. I want to make sure they do the job, and I feel like getting re rolls to hit on them is a good way to about it.
I'm just not sure if the Preceptor is worth it because of the reaper chainsword. I hardly use it currently because of invulernable saves being on basically everything I attack, but I am thinking there's going to be a lot imperial knights at this tourney, and some of the big tyranids don't have an invuln. Reaper chainsword is really good against those.
I'm also starting to reconsider the plasma vanguard because they haven't worked out quite as well as I'd like thus far. Seriously considering going with Hoplites instead, but doing this takes away from my ability to deal with a variety of threats.
IDK. What do you guys think? I've tried out list #1 three times and its worked once out of three games, but two of those were against Dark Eldar and we all know they are the most OP faction in the game right now.
lash92 wrote: Spot on analysis of the Vanguard, I really like them!
Has someone thought about running a more Skitarii heavy list with the addition of the Drill?
Sounds expensive. I mean... Green Tide works because you can Da Jump large numbers of infantry within 9" of the enemy. For us, we would have to bring Drills for every unit we want to deep strike in. And then there is the 50% PL rule that we have to account for. I suppose we can take a page from Orks and bring our own Kannons.
HQ - 30 1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist, Relic: Kurov's Aquila (2 PL)
Heavy Support - 99 3x Heavy Weapon Squad - 3x Mortar, 3x Lasgun (3 PL)
3x Heavy Weapon Squad - 3x Mortar, 3x Lasgun (3 PL)
3x Heavy Weapon Squad - 3x Mortar, 3x Lasgun (3 PL)
House Raven Super-Heavy Detachment - 952, 48 PL
Lord of War - 952 1x Knight Castellan - Volcano Lance, Plasma Decimator, 2x Shieldbreaker Missile, 2x Twin Siegebreaker Cannon, 2x Twin Meltaguns, Warlord: Ion Bulwark, Relic: Cawl's Wrath (30PL)
1x Armiger Helverin - 2x Armiger Autocannon, Heavy Stubber (9PL)
1x Armiger Helverin - 2x Armiger Autocannon, Heavy Stubber (9PL)
Total: 1989 points 12 CP (-2)
You might be able to squeeze in 3x Caliver and EDT if you try... but it's tough. And risky, if you have to fight a lot of minus to hit targets; we're already pushing it with two. Also sucks that we can't take Fulgurites because we're Graia, not Stygies. Graia FNP is a lot better for Skitarii in this case. Also, you have the option of taking Emotionless Clarity as your WLT. Though the more I think about it, I wonder if you should always take Emotionless Clarity and charge in after the Drills. Haha.
It also works, because of Orks are cheap and cheerful. Seeing your list: I like the idea but I think it wont work. The cost of Vanguard + transport seems just to big.
On an other note: Did anyone else notice that an increasing amout of Stygies players are taking Kastelan Robots? Even without Kataphron support...
I believe there is another Big FAQ at the end of September. There is also an errata with every codex release.
Also off-topic: I was looking at Drills on eBay, and I realized something: Skitarii are the 40k equivalent of Skaven. Armies employ a mix of expendable infantry and arcane technology; led by highly covetous and fractious priests; based in teeming, overpopulated cities that corrupt and consume everything around them...
lash92 wrote: It also works, because of Orks are cheap and cheerful. Seeing your list: I like the idea but I think it wont work. The cost of Vanguard + transport seems just to big.
On an other note: Did anyone else notice that an increasing amout of Stygies players are taking Kastelan Robots? Even without Kataphron support...
I run my 4 robots as stygies, if i dont get first turn they are about the hardest target i have to try and take down and the biggest target. It all depends on whether you think you’re up against a lot of -1 or a lot of LoW you absolutely have to get rid of as fast as possible. If you’re not then 4 robots can still delete any squad up to 10 models with no support. Although 10 custodes would be a tall order for sure lol. It all depends what you’re up against.
We only take cawl with his re-rolls for them because in a tournament you have to prepare for the worst case scenario, which is someone bringing magnus, a castellan or mortarion. Thats when you need your 6 robot cawlstar with wrath of mars.
I was debating of adding 2 to my Stygies / Blood Angels list, because I´m in dire need of some thing with a good rate of fire against infantry.
So you think they are still worth it as Stygies? Also do you run them alone or with some Kataphrons for that sweet +1 to hit stratagem?
rvd1ofakind wrote: I said drill is good with fulgurites only. Plasma vanguard suck ass. How is the drill different from just deepstriking them? They suck either way. If it was 10 dudes with plasma - sure,maybe. But now it's 3. Really not worth it to deepstrike them, and transporting them is even worse. The damn thing isn't open-topped so the guys will die after they shoot once.
Last time I tried using plasma vanguard was me deepstriking 2 squads, dominus and infiltrators, killing 3 noise marines and having only dominus survive for my next turn. It was glorious.
Man, you must be the worst 40k player on earth to have an outcome like that, or better yet, you're a liar. RvD you continue to amaze me with your immediate dismissals of any ideas that are not your own.
I came to vouch for the potency and flexibility of Plasma Vanguard inside of a Drill, the 12" range of the Drill with a pile out+advancing gives the Vanguard a lot of movement and with PDI gives them a 2+ to hit (threw and EDT for good measure) and no need to fear blowing up. This movement plus shooting usually means my Vanguard survive to do a second round of shooting.
Suzuteo wrote: They are a lot less powerful without Wrath of Mars. They just have so, so many shots...
Ofc they are better with Cawl + WrathofMars. I'm just trying to find of if they can still be viable without both, because of their huge number of shots.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I said drill is good with fulgurites only. Plasma vanguard suck ass. How is the drill different from just deepstriking them? They suck either way. If it was 10 dudes with plasma - sure,maybe. But now it's 3. Really not worth it to deepstrike them, and transporting them is even worse. The damn thing isn't open-topped so the guys will die after they shoot once.
Last time I tried using plasma vanguard was me deepstriking 2 squads, dominus and infiltrators, killing 3 noise marines and having only dominus survive for my next turn. It was glorious.
Man, you must be the worst 40k player on earth to have an outcome like that, or better yet, you're a liar. RvD you continue to amaze me with your immediate dismissals of any ideas that are not your own.
I came to vouch for the potency and flexibility of Plasma Vanguard inside of a Drill, the 12" range of the Drill with a pile out+advancing gives the Vanguard a lot of movement and with PDI gives them a 2+ to hit (threw and EDT for good measure) and no need to fear blowing up. This movement plus shooting usually means my Vanguard survive to do a second round of shooting.
That just seems like super poor rolling to me. On average, if you pop the shooting Strategem it's 7 dead Noise Marines. With just Dominus rerolls, it's almost 6 dead Noise Marines. That's not even a bad return...
Suzuteo wrote: They are a lot less powerful without Wrath of Mars. They just have so, so many shots...
Ofc they are better with Cawl + WrathofMars. I'm just trying to find of if they can still be viable without both, because of their huge number of shots.
Going back to Mars vs. Stygies, I think each one is better at certain things.
A Stygies-centered army looks like this:
Spoiler:
Blood Angels Battalion Detachment - 568
HQ - 403 1x Captain w/ Jump Pack - Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, Warlord: Artisan of War, Relic: Angel's Wing, Death Visions of Sanguinius
1x Captain w/ Jump Pack - Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, Relic: Relic: Veritas Vitae, Death Visions of Sanguinius
1x Mephiston - Powers: Quickening, Unleash Rage, Wings of Sanguinius
Elite - 352 11x Fulgurite Electro-Priest - Electroleech Stave
11x Fulgurite Electro-Priest - Electroleech Stave
Fast Attack - 272 4x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Total: 1941 points 18 CP (-4)
There are 59 loose points in this build, mostly because I am indecisive and can't figure out what to use it on. You can also cut 2 Fulgurites per unit if you want to avoid giving up The Reaper.
Wulfey thinks this style of list is stronger. In this meta, I think I would agree.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's that list with 3x9 Fulgurites in 3x Drills:
Spoiler:
Blood Angels Battalion Detachment - 504
HQ - 339 1x Captain w/ Jump Pack - Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, Warlord: Artisan of War, Relic: Angel's Wing, Death Visions of Sanguinius
1x Mephiston - Powers: Quickening, Unleash Rage, Wings of Sanguinius
1x Techmarine - Boltgun, Chainsword, Conversion Beamer, Relic: Veritas Vitae
Looks like a very strong style indeed.
I´m just a little bit biased in that I want my AdMech to be mostly a shooting army, while not having the static Cawlstar playstyle. I guess I could look into something like a more mobile Stygies build with Crawlers and a big unit of Lascannon Ironstriders.
Just had a look on the the new kill Team rules. Infiltrators and ruststalkers can be used. No one cares i know BUT they had a significant point drop compared to their current 40k situation (ruststalkers with claw is 15 and 16 for princeps, "infiltrators with flachette and taser the same). Question is: could they work in 40k if priced like that? Pure hypothetic.
I think the point values are no real indication for "normal 40k". Because for example a Sniper rifle is just 5pts and a plasma 3pts, which would be way to op.
One a side note: Do you play only with TTM rule Iago or do you also play Ars Bellica?
lash92 wrote: I think the point values are no real indication for "normal 40k". Because for example a Sniper rifle is just 5pts and a plasma 3pts, which would be way to op.
One a side note: Do you play only with TTM rule Iago or do you also play Ars Bellica?
Only ttm or itc. Dont get me started on AB -.-
Well Yeah weapon options differ very much but most model costs are pretty much on par.
Iago40k wrote: Just had a look on the the new kill Team rules. Infiltrators and ruststalkers can be used. No one cares i know BUT they had a significant point drop compared to their current 40k situation (ruststalkers with claw is 15 and 16 for princeps, "infiltrators with flachette and taser the same). Question is: could they work in 40k if priced like that? Pure hypothetic.
And vanguard and rangers are 9pts each in KT so you cant really compare the two.
I would consider taking ruststalkers at 15pts in 40k and the transonic blades would have to be free like they are in KT. The problem is that at the moment they are the same pts cost as an intercessor, which to us isnt worth it. But they’re faster, have an invulnerable save, same wounds, same str, 1 more attack, still better melee but no ranged. But their role is as a horde clearer, they have no penetration, but more attacks. But it’s not enough, an infiltrator does the same job but has range and can be deep striked. For 2pts more. Both are too expensive for their role.
In my eyes they are no different to taking a horde melee unit but with 2w instead of more bodies for 4 times the cost. They do nothing against anything of consequence, you would pile them in to a unit of cultists, hormagaunts etc.
Made a list mixed dogmas battlescribe still show it as invalid to mix dogmas but...
I m still not convinced it's smart to loose stygies -1 defence in order to take Cawl and 4 Robots ? I believe I'm gimping my own list for a wrath of Mars! Not sure yet.
I have a question for those of you infiltrating units at the start of the game. Do you always place your warlord before infiltrating to take advantage of +CP gain on a 5+ ?
What if you only have 1-2 units to infiltrate, is giving up the chance for a refund worth showing your hand in terms of deployment. Do you guys ever weigh that up at all?
I’m a still a bit of a noob but tying to learn. Deployment remains my Achilles heel.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I said drill is good with fulgurites only. Plasma vanguard suck ass. How is the drill different from just deepstriking them? They suck either way. If it was 10 dudes with plasma - sure,maybe. But now it's 3. Really not worth it to deepstrike them, and transporting them is even worse. The damn thing isn't open-topped so the guys will die after they shoot once.
Last time I tried using plasma vanguard was me deepstriking 2 squads, dominus and infiltrators, killing 3 noise marines and having only dominus survive for my next turn. It was glorious.
Man, you must be the worst 40k player on earth to have an outcome like that, or better yet, you're a liar. RvD you continue to amaze me with your immediate dismissals of any ideas that are not your own.
I came to vouch for the potency and flexibility of Plasma Vanguard inside of a Drill, the 12" range of the Drill with a pile out+advancing gives the Vanguard a lot of movement and with PDI gives them a 2+ to hit (threw and EDT for good measure) and no need to fear blowing up. This movement plus shooting usually means my Vanguard survive to do a second round of shooting.
I'll believe it when I see that topping GTs/Majors. If it will not come close to top 16 - it's bad. The time I tried it was in a friendly game. We called it after turn 2 because I lost everything in my "alphastrike" apart from dominus to just noise marines in 1 turn. And "this is just bad luck" means "this unit sucks".
"Bad luck" is what people say when they suck at the game and don't want to admit it. Ofc, there are edge cases where someone fails 16 2+ in a row but that's about it. What I did to those dudes was bellow average. And if a unit rolling "bellow average" does not do significant damage - it's a bad unit. You can't expect to roll 6s all tournament long. When playing practice games, I'll say "yeah, sure you made that 5'' charge" when my enemy snake-eyes, etc. because I want to prepare for the worst case scenario(within reason) and not bask in my luck. That's pointless. (obviously, I don't say all my enemy's shots hit and mine miss lol)
Ideasweasel wrote: I have a question for those of you infiltrating units at the start of the game. Do you always place your warlord before infiltrating to take advantage of +CP gain on a 5+ ?
What if you only have 1-2 units to infiltrate, is giving up the chance for a refund worth showing your hand in terms of deployment. Do you guys ever weigh that up at all?
I’m a still a bit of a noob but tying to learn. Deployment remains my Achilles heel.
Well since your Warlord is most likely just an Company Commander you are not really giving something up by placing him on the battlefield. So yes I do place him before hand to take advantage of the refund.
Yoda79 wrote: Made a list mixed dogmas battlescribe still show it as invalid to mix dogmas but...
I m still not convinced it's smart to loose stygies -1 defence in order to take Cawl and 4 Robots ? I believe I'm gimping my own list for a wrath of Mars! Not sure yet.
Cawl 240 points does not qualify only to buff 4 robots and I don't have more points even if I change to cheap gallant won't have points to get an onager more. So
1) Cawl buffing 4 Robots only for 240 points is one question
2) 680 points you can swap for more priest average 310 points and will produce mortals considering Robots need min 3cp and 2 CP / round I believe 1 CP INF and 3 CP double fight produce enough mortals o kill just about anything.
3) sure it's the issue of 36 range but you can also add more guns for the rest of 350++ points ?
And don't forget the -1 stygies for all your ad mech !!! For those points you can add 20 more priests and two more transports ...
I don't know if I could add more onager most likely 2 more for Cawl I would consider it more valid I guess. Somewhat having Cawl for 4 Robots don't seem that wow loosing the -2 on Dragoons etc!
I think its not worth to have Cawl for just buffing 4 bots. Imagine you go second and lose 2-3 Bots, than you have a 240 pts character basically doing nothing.
Maybe cut bots and Cawl and add some Icarus Crawler for AA and an extra drill with Priest (havent done the math but that should be about the same point level)
Also why are you running a Knight Errant? Its one of the weaker Knights imo.
lash92 wrote: I think its not worth to have Cawl for just buffing 4 bots. Imagine you go second and lose 2-3 Bots, than you have a 240 pts character basically doing nothing.
Maybe cut bots and Cawl and add some Icarus Crawler for AA and an extra drill with Priest (havent done the math but that should be about the same point level)
Also why are you running a Knight Errant? Its one of the weaker Knights imo.
4 is the exact number you should play most of the time. It's enough bots to make a denkt i ln everything. They can be hidden if you are playing on a 8th ed tabke. It is not too devastating to get them stuck in combat.
I never played a dakkablob with more than 4.
Suzuteo wrote:Taranis Errant with Ion Bulwark and the relic TC is actually pretty strong for the points.
I´m just not a fan of D6 weapons. Plus the melee weapon is of limited use. So I would either invest some more points to get a Crusader or save some points and get a Gallant for that sweet extra attack and WS.
Iago40k wrote:
lash92 wrote: I think its not worth to have Cawl for just buffing 4 bots. Imagine you go second and lose 2-3 Bots, than you have a 240 pts character basically doing nothing.
Maybe cut bots and Cawl and add some Icarus Crawler for AA and an extra drill with Priest (havent done the math but that should be about the same point level)
Also why are you running a Knight Errant? Its one of the weaker Knights imo.
4 is the exact number you should play most of the time. It's enough bots to make a denkt i ln everything. They can be hidden if you are playing on a 8th ed tabke. It is not too devastating to get them stuck in combat.
I never played a dakkablob with more than 4.
Sure, but I assume you got some other shooting which could benefit from Cawl, like Crawlers?
Suzuteo wrote:Taranis Errant with Ion Bulwark and the relic TC is actually pretty strong for the points.
I´m just not a fan of D6 weapons. Plus the melee weapon is of limited use. So I would either invest some more points to get a Crusader or save some points and get a Gallant for that sweet extra attack and WS.
Iago40k wrote:
lash92 wrote: I think its not worth to have Cawl for just buffing 4 bots. Imagine you go second and lose 2-3 Bots, than you have a 240 pts character basically doing nothing.
Maybe cut bots and Cawl and add some Icarus Crawler for AA and an extra drill with Priest (havent done the math but that should be about the same point level)
Also why are you running a Knight Errant? Its one of the weaker Knights imo.
4 is the exact number you should play most of the time. It's enough bots to make a denkt i ln everything. They can be hidden if you are playing on a 8th ed tabke. It is not too devastating to get them stuck in combat.
I never played a dakkablob with more than 4.
Sure, but I assume you got some other shooting which could benefit from Cawl, like Crawlers?
My issue with Cawl is that your main strategy, based on how many points you're spending to do it, is geared towards everything being next to Cawl for his aura. It's incredibly predictable and easy to counter with a few fly units. No-one plays Cawl for anything but that. So as soon as you see him you know what to do.
Taking robots out first turn when they're stygies is pretty darned tough. 2+/4++ T7 -1 to hit and 6W. But your opponent can still get lucky.
I'm not advocating that he should take the Cawlstar, just that if he takes Cawl he should take more units than just 4 Robots.
I am a Stygies guy myself
Ugh... so all my friends told me BAO was lame. Every game was just seeing which side could kill a Knight first. Castellans were most popular for single Knight armies; Castellan/Crusader/naked Gallant for pure Knights at a minimum; Chaos lists took a Double Avenger Renegade. One guy brought Smash Captains + choppy Scouts + 3x Gallant.
And yeah, Tau are back at the top tables. Geoff played Custodes. Brandon Grant got KO'ed by Ynnari. 1K Sons, BA, DA, and Harlequins also got really far.
So... seems like our top list at BAO is still the old standby of 4-5x Cawlstar with 2-3x Icarus Crawler. Huh.
Also, congratulations to ph34r for outplacing Maxwell Hill, who brought Neutron Crawlers, Sicarians, and Peltasts... very weird. Greg Markman did BA+Guard+Drills and placed 99; I think taking that Banehammer was a mistake in this meta.
Harlequins? Hmm that’s interesting. I watched Geoff’s round 5 versus the ynari player, is that the same guy that knocked out Brandon grant. (Daniel something?)
I don't get it you go to a tour with 3 onagers and Cawl star and you don't take 2* Icarus 1 * neutron? Ok Icarus bla bla I use also two but 3 ? In so many knights meta? I don't get it
I'm not surprised. In the last set of tournaments, I saw a few lists with Knights + Guard + 3x Icarus Crawler. They're really good unbuffed for shooting down flying enemies, and everything and their mom flies.
Is think Neutronagers are quite unreliable because of low number of shots, paired with that most things got invulns. That especially true, when you are just taking 1.
lash92 wrote: Is think Neutronagers are quite unreliable because of low number of shots, paired with that most things got invulns. That especially true, when you are just taking 1.
So the main question is if taking multiple is gonna make them any better. I want to like it so much because a minimum of 3-6 damage IS a good rule, but even rerolling all hits via Cawl doesn't make it do more than a few wounds against the Knight.
Knights pretty much make all vehicle-based anti-tank that cannot go toe-to-toe with a Knight obsolete. As BAO demonstrated, best way to take a Knight down is actually through melee or mortal wound spam. (Dragoons and Kastelans are actually okay for it; they can really hurt your dudes, but your dudes can really hurt their Knight too, and once the Castellan goes down, they usually lose because you have shooting that they relied on the Knight to defeat.)
You vehicles should be focusing on killing flying and minus hit enemies. So Icarus Crawlers, Ironstriders, Hellhounds, Knight Styrix, etc. are all good options.
I really need to figure out how those Tau lists work though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I was studying the top AdMech list, and I just realized something: Styrix has built-in Ion Bulwark and Sanctuary.
Now, he has always had this, and we've always dismissed him because the fully kitted out build is a hefty 500 points, which is ~75 points more than he's worth. But then it hit me: the codex has indirectly improved Styrix's value in the form of opportunity cost.
Think about it. Everyone takes Ion Bulwark and/or Sanctuary as a part of de-risking their Knight. It's baked into the pie. But Styrix already has it. So you just bought Ion Bulwark and Sanctuary for 75 points...
And I crunched the numbers. With the House Krast tradition, warlord trait, and heirloom, you're hitting harder than a Gallant against other Knights and your Volkite Chieorovile deals as much damage as a Volcano Cannon!
Suzuteo wrote: I'm not surprised. In the last set of tournaments, I saw a few lists with Knights + Guard + 3x Icarus Crawler. They're really good unbuffed for shooting down flying enemies, and everything and their mom flies.
I've run a lot of variants of that basic idea, not in tournaments but against some pretty good players with some pretty nasty lists. It's a solid combo and not one to underestimate. Icarus Crawlers are like an IG player's wet dream, they just cover so many weaknesses we have so well. It's like a hydra, if they were good. Its not surprising me that gunline minded players would run something like this. Especially since the enginseers can repair IG vehicles so that's a fun little extra and makes them feel slightly less useless when souped with IG.
I mean, the fact that with protector doctrina you can basically guarantee you hit any flier in the game on 2's base is a nice thing to have with all the -1 abilities these days too. Since IG and knights don't have as many ways to get around hit penalties you really need that kind of guaranteed accuracy.
Exactly. Knights for vehicles and other Knights, Hellhounds for minus to hit infantry, and Icarus Crawlers for anything that flies. Throw in some melee units like Dragoons and Bullgryns to boot. They cover each other's weaknesses very well.
Ideasweasel wrote: Harlequins? Hmm that’s interesting. I watched Geoff’s round 5 versus the ynari player, is that the same guy that knocked out Brandon grant. (Daniel something?)
Yes, the Ynnari player beat Brandon and played the following round against Geoff.
As for Icarus, aside from Knights a lot of good units have fly and -1 to hit or good invuls.
The combo is good and I v tested two more in My list today.
And yes I use Errant knight cause it's the knight I believe fits ad mech cheap antivehicle and not afraid to send him forth.
I'm yet to test Gallant but those two would be my first choice . Paladin is also considered but I wanna test the cheap ones first.
Robots today and Cawl proved why Cawl is a must.
Icarus onagers even Robots hitting on 5-6s since I played that night mission where extreme.
I like drill and priests but no points for them as I see it. It would be almost a choise between drill priests and a knight and aTm knights is better mainly cause of the mobility.
Sure I could remove Robots for priests same mobility issues and tbh I would consider it if I dint believe Cawl is a must. Or maybe lists full assault/ mobile.
Every single -hit flier cover etc plan is negated from Cawl and his superb reroll ALL hits . There it is can't win that . We played teams I played with Tau ally and he did nothing . He had almost -2 all game to hit fliers and schenario he practically send hq to tar pit . It was sad. Markers could not hit and Tau was negeted.
Even if some marker passed the efficiency would be bad.
And again I stress the dogma power of stygies and especially Dragoons .they are a force with the -2 to hit making a mixed dogma not yet worth it so much.( Still testing)
We only got shroud( Cawl helps it a ton to roll it) and -1 to hit from stygies rest army is paper compared to any other army.
Seen video tried some lists wanna be the Tour list breakdown.
Take the winning list. Pbc with demon priest and rerols and surviving vs Icarus . Cause that's the comparison I saw in that game . Maybe a less shooting but tons more durable not to mention 1) two rerollable flamers for offence back field defence and ofc antiair. So as a multi unit same average cost performs better. Might need some comparison vs helverins but still.
Helverins average 174 points making them over the price.
I'd say I prefer my 440 points Robots with less damage but can be buffed vs a knight with two gatlings for me . So I made that change .
So far we missing a deep strike boightlord group it's same average cost like Dragoons while they deep strike Dragoons bla bla you get the picture but we miss a bit of shooting here while we prevail in melee and infiltration from round one.
Cawl and demon prince I consider both protectors and buffers. Work points from onagers cover Cawl extra points more less 20 points different.
And there lies my question. Death guard invested two helverins for +3 CP and was able to win the tour . Unfortunately I need more CP for my infiltrations Robots etc knight to get him melee bla bla so one helverin must be guard somewhat. If not battalion or +1 CP at least for deny psych and CP recycle .
What's left? Few points to compete ? If you decide to play with as I stated so far the units you don't have valid detachments.
Either you pay 47 tax for a tech priest and. Make a mixed battalion loosing styges defence or split detachments and play with 6 CP making outrider spearhead and supreme command( I use for advantage on CP cycle) or what.
It's a helvering difference for almost and I stress almost same output.
Why I say it I loved the list and I play deathguard. Stressed many times the boightlord and cloud of flies Combe pre faq. And when I saw the list I consider it superb all around especially with flamers. He has also the mad elite with extra flamers and defnce 74 points.
I see 174 points helverin and a pbc missing I need to pay tax for a battalion ( need more CP) or risk with CP cycle and take maybe two balistarii. Still one pbc short. Same points effectively a helverin or pbc shorter not to mention my warlord is a commander and onagers balistarii average less durable maybe hit a bit better.(debatable when add flamers )
So just to answer some Tris I did today. And ofc the list plays nicely but once more taxed ..
Yup Icarus are super powerful:
It's not just Flyers, so many (good) units got the fly keyword: Every Eldar Vehicle, all those Tau Suits, Shield Captains, Blood Angels Jump Pack units, Demon Princes and Primarchs, and more I might have forgot.
You can't split shot icarus... So the super vehicle you imagine is actually less potent . Less durable etc etc it has advantages but we are making a competitive statement here.
Maybe is someone wants to test priests vs robots and make the list with stygies onagers . Then we could actually compare to other armies vehicles . Still you d loose Cawl that makes then really good shooters vs anything ...
Automatically Appended Next Post: And a question I have started to consider as valid .
Robots with two guns and one flamer worked fine vs fliers or charging units not so bad shooting...? I know they don't work too but to times I've tested worked for me .
Would work better with stygies Robots if not for that bad bs 4+
Could also use a comparison vs two balistarii autocann vs one helverin and those two vs Icarus maybe two lasc ballis.??
Question after the change Robots state that with protocol they shoot twice so they shoot also flamer twice ?? Was changed from faq so you can't change targets if I'm correct?? If so I'd consider 6 Robots all with flamers o:
Icarus Crawlers have been better than Neutron Crawlers for awhile now. Flying is too good. Anyhow, I find that to be settled knowledge in my mind. What I'm asking now: Are better than Ballistarii?
And yes, as Yoda says, you can split fire those Crawlers if you want to chew up infantry while still hitting vehicles with those rockets.
@Yoda79
Problem with flamer Kastelan is that you have to root yourself to make the Kastelan good. So you might have to run them Stygies in units of two that run in, override, flame?
--
Knights as a dominant strategy is very strong due to the structural advantages of a Knights list. They usually go first, give up very few points a turn in missions, and victory is essentially an anti-tank check for your opponent.
There's going to be an inflection point soon where people decide what is more likely to be undefeated: Knights or a list with a TAC strategy. I think it will be the latter because it has always been the latter. Hence why I think the 2x Armiger + lone Questoris is the best approach.
Anyhow, in terms of lone Knights, I think the Styrix might be something we should look into. It's actually surprisingly good:
SHOOTING Volkite Chieorovile: 45" Heavy 5 S8 AP-3 DD6, +1 hit on 6+ wound roll
Graviton Crusher: 18" Heavy D3 S6 AP-2 D2, if target has 3+ save, D3 instead
Twin-Rad Cleanser: 9" Assault 2D6 S* AP0 D3, 6+ to wound vehicles/titanic, else 3+
FIGHTING Hekaton Siege Claw A4 S16, AP-4, D6, -1 to hit rolls
Titanic Feet A12 S8 AP-2 DD3
Built-in Ion Bulwark, Sanctuary, and sort-of Mark of the Omnissiah
Take House Krast for:
1. Tradition: Krast units reroll all fighting hit rolls when charging, charged, making a Heroic Intervention, or if the target is Titanic
2. Stratagem: +1 hit on 6+ fighting hit roll, +2 hit if target is Chaos
3. WLT: Reroll all hit rolls of 1
4. Relic: +1D against W10+ targets, +2D if the target is Titanic instead
I mean, we all wanted to make the House Krast murder machine. We just couldn't give up the improved invulnerable save. But you can with this setup. Your Volkite Chieorovile is a 45" Volcano Cannon; Graviton Crusher is better than Meltagun at 18", your Stomps are absolutely brutal against vehicles; your Claw is comparable to a Gallant's Gauntlet. Cost is 500 points, so comparable to a Crusader.
You can also do House Raven with 2x Warglaives:
1. Tradition: Raven units can advance and still shoot
2. Stratagem: Reroll all shooting rolls
3. Landstrider WLT: +2 to advance and charge rolls for Raven units with 6"
4. Relic: Reroll fighting hit rolls of 1 for Raven units with 6"
Someone posted a math breakdown between ballistaari, icarus onager, and hellverins I think earlier in the thread.
The onager was consistently either the most efficient or second most efficient choice against a wide variety of targets. Other units had fringe cases that beat it but would then suffer against other targets.
If I'm building a competitive list, I would want something thats solidly an 8/10 as opposed to something that one game is a 10/10 and the next is only a 6/10. Maybe that's just me but I really like that consistency. Its also nice that it's always going to have the exact same number of shots every single turn, unlike something like a Hellverin which can decide it just wants to roll a garbage 4 shots on that critical turn like anything with random shots loves to do to me every game.
That in itself is not something to ignore either. Any unit that has a set value of shots I'm going to value over a similarly priced unit with random shots. Yes, there is such thing as an average, but an average doesn't do you a lick of good when you're in crunch mode on turn 6 and your massive beatstick unit that you're counting on decides it's only going to roll a couple of shots this turn. Half the reason the castellan knight is even being used is the Raven Strategem helping to mitigate that risk. If they didn't get to pay 2cp to reroll every single one I don't think they'd be near as common in competitive lists.
Personally i have dropped nearlly all shooting from my admec list. Even dropped dragoons as yes they are great but they die so fast in melee. I tried knight allies and found that simply put a blood angels battalion with 2 x smash caps, mephiston and 3 x scouts is far more effective. The caps will drop a knight easily. Have synergy, great board control for infiltrating priests etc. No overwatch cap to help get priests in on that tough overwatch target. Blobs of priests tieing up everything they can, fight twice, mortal wound output not to mention the 2++ on an objective. Just my opinion but far more reliable and cheaper that our shooting that relies on a 240pt model to be effective.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Someone posted a math breakdown between ballistaari, icarus onager, and hellverins I think earlier in the thread.
The onager was consistently either the most efficient or second most efficient choice against a wide variety of targets. Other units had fringe cases that beat it but would then suffer against other targets.
If I'm building a competitive list, I would want something thats solidly an 8/10 as opposed to something that one game is a 10/10 and the next is only a 6/10. Maybe that's just me but I really like that consistency. Its also nice that it's always going to have the exact same number of shots every single turn, unlike something like a Hellverin which can decide it just wants to roll a garbage 4 shots on that critical turn like anything with random shots loves to do to me every game.
That in itself is not something to ignore either. Any unit that has a set value of shots I'm going to value over a similarly priced unit with random shots. Yes, there is such thing as an average, but an average doesn't do you a lick of good when you're in crunch mode on turn 6 and your massive beatstick unit that you're counting on decides it's only going to roll a couple of shots this turn. Half the reason the castellan knight is even being used is the Raven Strategem helping to mitigate that risk. If they didn't get to pay 2cp to reroll every single one I don't think they'd be near as common in competitive lists.
Yeah, that was me. Lol. The Crawlers do even better the more of them you bring because you can split fire them with sufficient volume to down vehicles or wipe entire units. The big plus for Ballistarii though is that they can kill things that don't fly too.
Strangely enough, in terms of the math, it's better to take the random shots usually because they are priced lower in points and more easily modified by rerolls.
Envii wrote: Personally i have dropped nearlly all shooting from my admec list. Even dropped dragoons as yes they are great but they die so fast in melee. I tried knight allies and found that simply put a blood angels battalion with 2 x smash caps, mephiston and 3 x scouts is far more effective. The caps will drop a knight easily. Have synergy, great board control for infiltrating priests etc. No overwatch cap to help get priests in on that tough overwatch target. Blobs of priests tieing up everything they can, fight twice, mortal wound output not to mention the 2++ on an objective. Just my opinion but far more reliable and cheaper that our shooting that relies on a 240pt model to be effective.
I think there are distinct shooting-heavy Mars and melee-heavy Stygies lists. It's a tossup for which is better. Tournament performance suggests that it's still the Mars lists, but that may be due to the low numbers of Drills circulating in the metagame.
I was 3-1 going into my last two games at BAO but I encountered some serious combinations of bad luck and my mistakes. Had my first games of 40k against Necrons, Mortarion, Magnus, Raven Guard, Dark Eldar, and Gallant + Gallant + Castellan + Battery + Smash Captains. I'm quite proud to have totally wiped three of those out from turn 1.
Game 6. Dark Eldar with 3 Hemlocks. His rolls were ridiculously on fire and completely killed a Castellan with 9 Dark Reapers on turn 1. Game was essentially over immediately. This is what happened to all the people I beat so I can't really be too mad. The deployment was also long-way down the table, and I was not surprised to discover that Kastelans having only 36" range doesn't work so well there. Nice color scheme on the Hemlocks. Player review: cool guy. Fatal flaw: 9 dark reapers dealing 22(?) wounds to a Castellan in one shot.
Game 5. Magnus flew 15" + 15" + 10" charge around my entire screen to charge my robots turn 1. Game was over basically immediately after he started his turn and I realized I 1. failed to completely screen and 2. failed to try to seize. Partially my fault for not screening properly, but it was my first time fighting Magnus. Also I forgot to interrupt my opponent to seize the initiative and he definitely did not go out of his way to ask if I wanted to. lol. Player review: /shrug. Fatal flaw: 3" of misplaced screen
Game 2. Necron guy. Rolls were turn 1 totally garbage for him, but then also terrible for me turn 1. Back to on fire again for him from turn 2 on, but he definitely knew what he was doing and had practiced well. 4 Robots unleashed everything on 13 destroyers and did jack-gak, with literally all of them (except maybe two?) coming back to life. Player review: cool guy. Fatal flaw: luck and forgetfulness
Mathhammer8thed.com reports 72 robot wrath shots should kill 16 Destroyers. Actually I forgot to use wrath so that one is on me... Mathhammer8thed says in that case I should actually only kill 8 destroyers. Killed about 4-5 Destroyers and only 2 actually died. Learned to respect the firepower of Destroyers. Also the Castellan did really really terrible at trying to kill the Gauss Pylon, which in theory it should be super-awesome at doing.
Game 1, 3, 4.
Blew up Raven Guard Fire Raptor with the Castellan alone, overkilling it by 2x its wounds before even firing the plasma gun which was then wasted. Robots killed entire rest of infantry turn 1, rest of game was smash captains hiding from stuff and dying. Basically a total blowout victory in the first 5 minutes of turn 1.
Game 3 was against the "exactly minimum guard CP battery battalion, exactly minimum BA smash battalion, 3 knights" which at first glance to me was terrifying. Then I blew up 1.75 knights and a captain on turn 1, and that was it. Straightforward game, blowout by turn 2.
Game 4 was vs Mortarion and friends. Blew up basically just the death shroud and pox walkers turn one, which worried me as he still had 2 daemon princes, 2 crawlers, Morty, plague marines, etc. Castellan did a real number on Morty however and by turn 2 I had basically blown up everything. Very straightforward game, total victory after a slightly lackluster turn 1 where I forgot to use wrath.
This was my first tournament since 6th edition, my first BAO-sized tournament since 2011, and my first games in maybe 4 months? Also my first tournament with Adeptus Mechanicus if the 6th edition thing didn't make that obvious. First time fighting each and every single type of list I fought. Learned a lot!
My ultimate goal for this tournament was to finish painting and modeling my list, and I basically did! Happy with my progress, folks liked the basilisks and the number of people asking to take pictures was super flattering.
Ultimate takeaways:
Fighting against -1, -2 to be hit on EVERYTHING eldar/dark eldar just felt like why am I even bothering to include models with BS 4+ in my army. Basilisks were kinda nice and fun to field but not amazing.
Don't forget to use Wrath of Mars when you shoot the enemy's Destroyer Deathstar.
Don't forget to use Wrath of Mars when you shoot the enemy's Mortarion.
Don't forget to try to seize the initiative.
Don't forget that Magnus can and will charge your units 42" away on turn 1.
Icarus Onagers are great and basically don't even need re-rolls against many targets. They certainly don't need Cawl.
4 Robots with Cawl caused ridiculous overkill vs the Raven Guard and Death Guard infantry after which they kinda just stood there while the enemy remnants hid.
AdMech Rangers are basically pointless. Same with Engineers. Felt like a total waste of 150 points.
The most important thing in the game is screening and having turn 1.
I'm not even sure there is a need for fully 4 robots or even Cawl anymore. The robots either super-overkilled their target, did not have a chance to shoot, or could only shoot -2 targets.
Maybe just take 3 robots 2 crawlers and call that good enough? Perhaps a standard Magos.
Suzuteo wrote: Icarus Crawlers have been better than Neutron Crawlers for awhile now. Flying is too good. Anyhow, I find that to be settled knowledge in my mind. What I'm asking now: Are better than Ballistarii?
And yes, as Yoda says, you can split fire those Crawlers if you want to chew up infantry while still hitting vehicles with those rockets.
@Yoda79
Problem with flamer Kastelan is that you have to root yourself to make the Kastelan good. So you might have to run them Stygies in units of two that run in, override, flame?
--
Knights as a dominant strategy is very strong due to the structural advantages of a Knights list. They usually go first, give up very few points a turn in missions, and victory is essentially an anti-tank check for your opponent.
There's going to be an inflection point soon where people decide what is more likely to be undefeated: Knights or a list with a TAC strategy. I think it will be the latter because it has always been the latter. Hence why I think the 2x Armiger + lone Questoris is the best approach.
Anyhow, in terms of lone Knights, I think the Styrix might be something we should look into. It's actually surprisingly good:
SHOOTING Volkite Chieorovile: 45" Heavy 5 S8 AP-3 DD6, +1 hit on 6+ wound roll
Graviton Crusher: 18" Heavy D3 S6 AP-2 D2, if target has 3+ save, D3 instead
Twin-Rad Cleanser: 9" Assault 2D6 S* AP0 D3, 6+ to wound vehicles/titanic, else 3+
FIGHTING Hekaton Siege Claw A4 S16, AP-4, D6, -1 to hit rolls
Titanic Feet A12 S8 AP-2 DD3
Built-in Ion Bulwark, Sanctuary, and sort-of Mark of the Omnissiah
Take House Krast for:
1. Tradition: Krast units reroll all fighting hit rolls when charging, charged, making a Heroic Intervention, or if the target is Titanic
2. Stratagem: +1 hit on 6+ fighting hit roll, +2 hit if target is Chaos
3. WLT: Reroll all hit rolls of 1
4. Relic: +1D against W10+ targets, +2D if the target is Titanic instead
I mean, we all wanted to make the House Krast murder machine. We just couldn't give up the improved invulnerable save. But you can with this setup. Your Volkite Chieorovile is a 45" Volcano Cannon; Graviton Crusher is better than Meltagun at 18", your Stomps are absolutely brutal against vehicles; your Claw is comparable to a Gallant's Gauntlet. Cost is 500 points, so comparable to a Crusader.
You can also do House Raven with 2x Warglaives:
1. Tradition: Raven units can advance and still shoot
2. Stratagem: Reroll all shooting rolls
3. Landstrider WLT: +2 to advance and charge rolls for Raven units with 6"
4. Relic: Reroll fighting hit rolls of 1 for Raven units with 6"
Do you own a Stryix? And if you don’t are you considering buying one? What else would you take with it?
ph34r wrote: I was 3-1 going into my last two games at BAO but I encountered some serious combinations of bad luck and my mistakes. Had my first games of 40k against Necrons, Mortarion, Magnus, Raven Guard, Dark Eldar, and Gallant + Gallant + Castellan + Battery + Smash Captains. I'm quite proud to have totally wiped three of those out from turn 1.
Game 6. Dark Eldar with 3 Hemlocks. His rolls were ridiculously on fire and completely killed a Castellan with 9 Dark Reapers on turn 1. Game was essentially over immediately. This is what happened to all the people I beat so I can't really be too mad. The deployment was also long-way down the table, and I was not surprised to discover that Kastelans having only 36" range doesn't work so well there. Nice color scheme on the Hemlocks. Player review: cool guy. Fatal flaw: 9 dark reapers dealing 22(?) wounds to a Castellan in one shot.
Game 5. Magnus flew 15" + 15" + 10" charge around my entire screen to charge my robots turn 1. Game was over basically immediately after he started his turn and I realized I 1. failed to completely screen and 2. failed to try to seize. Partially my fault for not screening properly, but it was my first time fighting Magnus. Also I forgot to interrupt my opponent to seize the initiative and he definitely did not go out of his way to ask if I wanted to. lol. Player review: /shrug. Fatal flaw: 3" of misplaced screen
Game 2. Necron guy. Rolls were turn 1 totally garbage for him, but then also terrible for me turn 1. Back to on fire again for him from turn 2 on, but he definitely knew what he was doing and had practiced well. 4 Robots unleashed everything on 13 destroyers and did jack-gak, with literally all of them (except maybe two?) coming back to life. Player review: cool guy. Fatal flaw: luck and forgetfulness
Mathhammer8thed.com reports 72 robot wrath shots should kill 16 Destroyers. Actually I forgot to use wrath so that one is on me... Mathhammer8thed says in that case I should actually only kill 8 destroyers. Killed about 4-5 Destroyers and only 2 actually died. Learned to respect the firepower of Destroyers. Also the Castellan did really really terrible at trying to kill the Gauss Pylon, which in theory it should be super-awesome at doing.
Game 1, 3, 4.
Blew up Raven Guard Fire Raptor with the Castellan alone, overkilling it by 2x its wounds before even firing the plasma gun which was then wasted. Robots killed entire rest of infantry turn 1, rest of game was smash captains hiding from stuff and dying. Basically a total blowout victory in the first 5 minutes of turn 1.
Game 3 was against the "exactly minimum guard CP battery battalion, exactly minimum BA smash battalion, 3 knights" which at first glance to me was terrifying. Then I blew up 1.75 knights and a captain on turn 1, and that was it. Straightforward game, blowout by turn 2.
Game 4 was vs Mortarion and friends. Blew up basically just the death shroud and pox walkers turn one, which worried me as he still had 2 daemon princes, 2 crawlers, Morty, plague marines, etc. Castellan did a real number on Morty however and by turn 2 I had basically blown up everything. Very straightforward game, total victory after a slightly lackluster turn 1 where I forgot to use wrath.
This was my first tournament since 6th edition, my first BAO-sized tournament since 2011, and my first games in maybe 4 months? Also my first tournament with Adeptus Mechanicus if the 6th edition thing didn't make that obvious. First time fighting each and every single type of list I fought. Learned a lot!
My ultimate goal for this tournament was to finish painting and modeling my list, and I basically did! Happy with my progress, folks liked the basilisks and the number of people asking to take pictures was super flattering.
Ultimate takeaways:
Fighting against -1, -2 to be hit on EVERYTHING eldar/dark eldar just felt like why am I even bothering to include models with BS 4+ in my army. Basilisks were kinda nice and fun to field but not amazing.
Don't forget to use Wrath of Mars when you shoot the enemy's Destroyer Deathstar.
Don't forget to use Wrath of Mars when you shoot the enemy's Mortarion.
Don't forget to try to seize the initiative.
Don't forget that Magnus can and will charge your units 42" away on turn 1.
Icarus Onagers are great and basically don't even need re-rolls against many targets. They certainly don't need Cawl.
4 Robots with Cawl caused ridiculous overkill vs the Raven Guard and Death Guard infantry after which they kinda just stood there while the enemy remnants hid.
AdMech Rangers are basically pointless. Same with Engineers. Felt like a total waste of 150 points.
The most important thing in the game is screening and having turn 1.
I'm not even sure there is a need for fully 4 robots or even Cawl anymore. The robots either super-overkilled their target, did not have a chance to shoot, or could only shoot -2 targets.
Sounds like you learned a bit, I always forget to heal with my enginseer, that’s my whoops moment usually. So what did you list look like exactly, got a link?
Nice report. Sorry I couldn't make it. Was working over the weekend.
ph34r wrote: Game 6. Dark Eldar with 3 Hemlocks. His rolls were ridiculously on fire and completely killed a Castellan with 9 Dark Reapers on turn 1. Game was essentially over immediately. This is what happened to all the people I beat so I can't really be too mad. The deployment was also long-way down the table, and I was not surprised to discover that Kastelans having only 36" range doesn't work so well there. Nice color scheme on the Hemlocks. Player review: cool guy. Fatal flaw: 9 dark reapers dealing 22(?) wounds to a Castellan in one shot.
Yeah, this is what I was saying to people. Castellans are risky. You're putting a ton of points in one basket. If it dies, you lose. If it doesn't die, good chance you win. And just because your Castellan can kill something doesn't mean it doesn't counter your Castellan. ANYTHING that can kill a Castellan is a threat, and loading up on these threats makes others taking a Castellan very dangerous.
ph34r wrote: Game 5. Magnus flew 15" + 15" + 10" charge around my entire screen to charge my robots turn 1. Game was over basically immediately after he started his turn and I realized I 1. failed to completely screen and 2. failed to try to seize. Partially my fault for not screening properly, but it was my first time fighting Magnus. Also I forgot to interrupt my opponent to seize the initiative and he definitely did not go out of his way to ask if I wanted to. lol. Player review: /shrug. Fatal flaw: 3" of misplaced screen
Yeah. To be fair, 1K Sons have so many powers that it is tough to have a game plan, so going in blind is actually not that much different than going in informed. Anyhow, you definitely do want to do a castle deployment when you are up against a list with fast, flying melee. Basically, pick a table edge and cluster your shooting there. Deploy your Rangers relatively close to your Kastelans (within 3"), your Crawlers in front of them (use those dinner plates!), and your Guardsmen 3" in front of them as a midfield screen. Deny him the space to stand anywhere. The next turn, you can delete enemy threats and begin moving out.
ph34r wrote: Game 2. Necron guy. Rolls were turn 1 totally garbage for him, but then also terrible for me turn 1. Back to on fire again for him from turn 2 on, but he definitely knew what he was doing and had practiced well. 4 Robots unleashed everything on 13 destroyers and did jack-gak, with literally all of them (except maybe two?) coming back to life. Player review: cool guy. Fatal flaw: luck and forgetfulness
Mathhammer8thed.com reports 72 robot wrath shots should kill 16 Destroyers. Actually I forgot to use wrath so that one is on me... Mathhammer8thed says in that case I should actually only kill 8 destroyers. Killed about 4-5 Destroyers and only 2 actually died. Learned to respect the firepower of Destroyers. Also the Castellan did really really terrible at trying to kill the Gauss Pylon, which in theory it should be super-awesome at doing.
Always use Wrath of Mars, even if you don't have to. If you don't have enough CP, you need to bring more for the dakka.
ph34r wrote: Game 3 was against the "exactly minimum guard CP battery battalion, exactly minimum BA smash battalion, 3 knights" which at first glance to me was terrifying. Then I blew up 1.75 knights and a captain on turn 1, and that was it. Straightforward game, blowout by turn 2.
3x Gallant or 2x Gallant and Castellan? Gallants look scary, but a good shooting army doesn't need to worry about them until turn two. Just focus on killing the Castellan, and you win by merit of still having your Castellan.
ph34r wrote: Fighting against -1, -2 to be hit on EVERYTHING eldar/dark eldar just felt like why am I even bothering to include models with BS 4+ in my army. Basilisks were kinda nice and fun to field but not amazing.
Don't forget to use Wrath of Mars when you shoot the enemy's Destroyer Deathstar.
Don't forget to use Wrath of Mars when you shoot the enemy's Mortarion.
Don't forget to try to seize the initiative.
Don't forget that Magnus can and will charge your units 42" away on turn 1.
Icarus Onagers are great and basically don't even need re-rolls against many targets. They certainly don't need Cawl.
4 Robots with Cawl caused ridiculous overkill vs the Raven Guard and Death Guard infantry after which they kinda just stood there while the enemy remnants hid.
AdMech Rangers are basically pointless. Same with Engineers. Felt like a total waste of 150 points.
The most important thing in the game is screening and having turn 1.
I'm not even sure there is a need for fully 4 robots or even Cawl anymore. The robots either super-overkilled their target, did not have a chance to shoot, or could only shoot -2 targets.
Maybe just take 3 robots 2 crawlers and call that good enough? Perhaps a standard Magos.
I did warn you about the Basilisks. Since you already have a Castellan, you wanted to bring a second Icarus instead. And yeah, Icarus Crawlers work without Cawl. My first codex list had two in the Stygies detachment with the two Neutron Crawlers in the Mars detachment. Math showed that it worked best that way.
Rangers and Enginseers aren't useless. They are actually very important human speed bumps. If you every take Drills, load the Enginseers up, see if they can soak up the Overwatch for your Fulgurites.
Robots shouldn't be shooting -2 to hit targets. But I think there is room for them. I mean, there are lots of Guard matchups where they are valuable.
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Ideasweasel wrote: Do you own a Stryix? And if you don’t are you considering buying one? What else would you take with it?
Yeah. There are lots of cheapy, somewhat shady upgrade kits floating around. (Styrix and Magaera use the same chassis as the Questoris Knights.) I bought those for the Mechanicus flavored plates, but it's nice to see that the guns are valuable now.
As I don't consider Castelan valid I don't styrix as well. Might be better might be the proper one but I do not have one and I won't invest again 500 points in one model. I don't seem able to play them well enough to win and tbh seen many players even really good ones gimped from a lucky d6 damage weapon sooner or later. So trying hard to make it to a tournament reach semifinals or finals to have a bad luck and die. Form turn one. Sad and common really common for any 600+ army. imagine a Robot or mortar heavy list clearing your screen and your Castelan die as mine did turn one. My opponent played stratagem 3 CP to fight twice Castelan down from a 250 unit shooting somewhat 30 bolter shots and a 140 points hq model fighint twice . So I lost most games with a knight 500+ even lancer I like 480 cost me around 700++ turn one. It's an issue a big one. Splitting in more units atm waste enemy extradamage bad play bad target picking etc. Big units make games more risky easy for less skilled players to compete etc. Got advantages surely Castelan is a beast no argue but as an ad mech player and model owner I will go atm max 350-450 for may knight .
Same idea behind most of my lists and I pressure eventually we ended up with 4* robot lists. Though atm I could easily say try a spearhead with Cawl 1*4 robots and 2*2 flamers and two blaster ones but synergy is bad.
Castelan won't make it without Cawl and sure Icarus can hit without Cawl but. Cawl allow to Reroll A L L hits not onlay miss.
Your Icarus vs -2 flier can miss Cawl makes it beyond points good!. And since Robots can't be played without him nor stygies they suck melee and shooting 4+ it's a classic 4* robots and 2* Icarus min. For me.
I v deleted most lists I was testing the synergy is bad!
1)Supreme command guard knights don't work since I found to be loving my knight Taranis list above all others. Fnp is just the key part of knights not ion and definitely melee.
2) as I explained on the breakdown of the winning list in last tour we come to a conclusion points represent options and result.
So yes Gallant was praised in forums and the points might be a bit low but it is not the best option. Cause it can only play melee.
3) same answer I gave to my self for the broken Dragoons that I love but I v stared to use differently 2*1 1*3 outrider etc max cause all games I play my enemies know what they do and just plainly avoid them . So I found their cheap nature to suit me more as cheap screen rather than assault. Why ? No reroll on charge no shooting and eventually investing more that the cheap issue does not make them better as I explained.
4) same goes for priests . Their melee nature makes then leathal I love them the transport makes up for the gap a lot. Gives them durability and some movement. But.
Deep strike for them is bad. Infiltration is a must that is good and bad. Bad if you play second an experienced player will once more shoot an easy transport kill and won't bother with priests again since they won't move ever again to position . Done deal. Since they can't shoot I strongly suggest shooty priest as Mars and wrath of Mars different role but would result in more consistency.
You know what you get and pay for . Not that I won't use melee priest as I said I love them but for competitive play ATM stygies when I need Mars can't happen. Maybe mixed dogmas yet to be seen but without the -1 to get hit Dragoons transport etc already loose their actual appeal.
5) So in order to not break your balls reading though I consider this valuable experience I'd sum it up with parts I currently use separately and in various lists combinations etc. Still this is my experience how I play games view team building and merely share my point of view not forcing none to like or accept my findings.
There are more things Some Suzuteo already saying in his post and I find my self agreeing with him more and more so many times . Even if I don't view hiw mathhammer point of view in almost all cases after games we agree in the main concept . While I cosndider both different playstyle and approach I gotta say can't be so random to see some things the same from different points of view. So yes on top of what he said my lists would usually include as Ad mech detachments like .
Super heavy +3 CP
Errant
Warglaive
Warglaive
Not to mention the knights and mini mes looks.
Cawl star min spreahead or battalion usually spearhead.
1*4 Robots
2*1 Icarus
Tbh with the increased CP options if I could spare the overcosted destroyers I would want to have that elimination volley really I would and I consider it a test I want to make . I know they are bad but volume of fire maybe with grav don't know just saying maybe someone can elaborate.
Guard battalion is just TOP.
Commander
Phycher deny saved me more than once .
3*10 inf mortar
Maybe heavy. Teams mortar.
Less usable still options.
Outrider 3*1 Dragoons take it Mars with Cawl and Robots if you need less points from onagers and a decent screen. 68 points is a bargain.
A valid outrider maybe if you take a supreme command guard knight or if you play without allows or knights.
I definitely go for stygies .battalion and outrider.
Priests with transport and one enginseer can heal transport and Dragoons near . Did many times maybe get two enisnseers if you go heavy assault. To be honest I'd go for a
1*4 dragoon and 2*2 balistarii easily if I had the models love the concept beyond knights Armiger's.
Definitely could ad Icarus in stygies or even groups of two robots infiltrated with flamer and guns but two max.
I consider and see atm units able to do effectively dual roles as more important atm that's why I would try knight Armiger's vs Dragoons. Same goes for Robots vs priests. The synergies the auras the hq even the stratagems .
Knights got a reroll charge or relic to charge properly yes Dragoons don't. They are even less mobile. Would take dunestrider rule +2" on charge and move and only 2 exploding hits any day. Overkill they are and most time won't manage enage all we need.
Iago40k wrote: Just had a look on the the new kill Team rules. Infiltrators and ruststalkers can be used. No one cares i know BUT they had a significant point drop compared to their current 40k situation (ruststalkers with claw is 15 and 16 for princeps, "infiltrators with flachette and taser the same). Question is: could they work in 40k if priced like that? Pure hypothetic.
I think they could work if they were given a point adjustment like that. Right now the rust-stalkers are just awful.
I've tried using them in a variety of ways and flat out they are not good. Even under ideal usage - against swarms, they are not worth their cost. They can really only get their points back on low toughness non-melee swarms like Imperial Infantry, Chaos Cultists, or the shooty tyranid swarmers. The big joke with this is that the very units they should be targeting can easily blast them off the table before even getting into melee. If you can camp them behind a wall and use them as a defensive counter-charger to protect your firing line - they can be somewhat worth-while, but even then they melt in combat against anything melee oriented.
I really hope they do get a point adjustment in 40k. 15-16 may be something close to fair for them.
Suzuteo, it actually hadn’t occurred to me to find alternative weapons for the forgeworld variants. My knight is Magnetised though so you have peaked my interest...
Ideasweasel wrote:
Sounds like you learned a bit, I always forget to heal with my enginseer, that’s my whoops moment usually. So what did you list look like exactly, got a link?
Suzuteo wrote:Nice report. Sorry I couldn't make it. Was working over the weekend.
Always use Wrath of Mars, even if you don't have to. If you don't have enough CP, you need to bring more for the dakka.
Yup, when I say I forgot to use it, I literally forgot to, it was not just that I thought I wouldn't need it.
ph34r wrote: Game 3 was against the "exactly minimum guard CP battery battalion, exactly minimum BA smash battalion, 3 knights" which at first glance to me was terrifying. Then I blew up 1.75 knights and a captain on turn 1, and that was it. Straightforward game, blowout by turn 2.
Suzuteo wrote:I did warn you about the Basilisks. Since you already have a Castellan, you wanted to bring a second Icarus instead. And yeah, Icarus Crawlers work without Cawl. My first codex list had two in the Stygies detachment with the two Neutron Crawlers in the Mars detachment. Math showed that it worked best that way.
Rangers and Enginseers aren't useless. They are actually very important human speed bumps. If you every take Drills, load the Enginseers up, see if they can soak up the Overwatch for your Fulgurites.
Robots shouldn't be shooting -2 to hit targets. But I think there is room for them. I mean, there are lots of Guard matchups where they are valuable.
Unfortunately some matchups (I guess just one really, the Eldar Hemlocks.) Obviously not a great target.
The basilisks were alright and I like the models a lot, just the nerf from 80 points to 108 points was sadly punitive.
I have a Styrix myself recently built, but the Castellan seems way better to me just due to the fact that while the Styrix is tough, the Castellan can also have a natural 4++, and has about 4x the ranged firepower for a very minor points increase.
Coming out of the tournament, my list for the future I think can be roughly cut down in the following ways:
4 robots and Cawl is about twice as much firepower as 3 robots and gives you an okay combat character and canticle choice. Unfortunately canticles suck and Cawl is not going to beat anything that is a close combat unit in a serious environment.
Every time I shot something with robots, with the exception of shooting them at things like tough vehicles, aircraft, and other suboptimal targets, I overkilled the hell out of that target.
Having a basilisk was nice but two is probably not that much more useful than one. It blocks a lot of back field space and helps me try to finish off weak vehicles and units.
If I drop Cawl keeping only the Enginseer, drop the Rangers (probably replacing them with a larger volume of Guardsmen), drop one basilisk, and keep the Icarus Onager, I free up 563 points.
Oh, and the Primaris Psyker didn't really do anything either, he maybe denied one spell once which was nice. Single unit of Graia infantry or Astropath might be better there. It was fun to take a conversion that I liked a lot out onto the field, but I don't think he is ultimately super-competitive.
Dropping the Psyker down to a Commander too and adding in a 2nd Icarus to make the old Battalion into a new legal Vanguard with the 3 requisite Heavy Support leaves a healthy 452 points left. That could become a lot of things, such as 3 Armigers all who would share in the House Raven Order of Companions Awesome Funtime Stratagem that I have estimated increases the Castellan's damage output by almost 70% once re-rolling 1s for number of shots, 1s to hit, 1s to wound, and 1s to damage are compounded onto each other. 12% or 16% depending on d6 or d3, compounded 4 times from number of shots through damage. Big numbers.
Wait the order of companions strat works on all the Armigers in a slot? I thought it could only affect one knight? If so a slot of 3 warglaives or hellverins would be pretty scary with that strategem.
If I'm not mistaken even if you make one group of Armiger's after the initial placement they behave as independent units written in their profile. When I checked
MrMoustaffa wrote: Wait the order of companions strat works on all the Armigers in a slot? I thought it could only affect one knight? If so a slot of 3 warglaives or hellverins would be pretty scary with that strategem.
Oh yeah, I'm totally wrong. For some reason the "Companions" part to me made me think it worked like Bonded Oathsmen or something. Nope.
Ok i know this has been asked, but finding anything in this thread now is impossible and Googling for mathhammer hasnt helped me yet.
I’m going to be participating in throne of skulls team doubles at WW in October with my buddy whois taking a bunch of dark angels primaris intercessors and hellblasters. I’ll be taking 1000pts of pure admech to back this up.
If you’ve never been to a throne of skulls event then you can read up on it here: https://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/warhammer-40000-throne-of-skulls-doubles-2/ its important to realise that simply winning every match isnt necessarily enough to win the event, you also get points for people voting your team as their favourite game and as the best looking.
You may notice that i havent included any robots and that ive added serpentas to all my dragoons as well. This was on purpose essentially i added my 6 dragoons and 2 onagers and the points i had left werent enough for any kind of robots or the necessary support system. And i just dont physically have anything else i could fit in the last 120 or so points. There’s a rule of 2 in this tournament, 3 in total accross a team. So i couldnt add another onager, i dont have any priests or hoplites or infiltrators....i do have ruststalkers and well, as cool as they are i think i’ll probably benefit more from the special weapons. Hence the serpenta, arquebus, plasma and arc rifles.
Anyway, the ever looming threat of imperial knights is highly likely and my buddy is concerned that a neutron laser might be worth swapping in for one of the icarus arrays. Purely for hitting a grounded T8 target with lots of wounds. Is an icarus still more efficient against a knight than a neutron? I’m tempted to hedge my bets and take one of each and I have the points to do both.
As a guy who loves neutron onagers, they're just incredibly swingy and invulns are their Achilles heel. They have no way to get through that. A knight player with 3++/4++ will be very difficult to drop with them, since you get a random number of shots and only maybe half of the ones that hit and wound have a chance of getting through, which isn't much.
Kastelan Robots [24 PL, 330pts]
. Kastelan Robot [110pts]: Heavy Phosphor blaster [15pts]
. . Heavy phosphor blasters [30pts]: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster [30pts]
. Kastelan Robot [110pts]: Heavy Phosphor blaster [15pts]
. . Heavy phosphor blasters [30pts]: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster [30pts]
. Kastelan Robot [110pts]: Heavy Phosphor blaster [15pts]
. . Heavy phosphor blasters [30pts]: 2x Heavy Phosphor blaster [30pts]
My robots are converted quite nicely, so we might get some points there, assuming i can paint them any way half decent.
He does have some room for dropping some intercessors for say a predator or something. Thing is he’s mainly a dark eldar and tyranids player so doesnt have an extensive imperial collection.
My biggest worry about this alternative is that balistarii are considerably squishier than onagers. But the robots should make up for that.
So I wanna run a Drill with Vanguard to have some shooting backup for my priest. Would you run 2 small squads with 2 Plasma each or a big squad with 3 plasma in it to benefit from the +2 to hit stratagem.
Also weapons for the Drill: Just 2x Stormbolters or is anyone using the Volkite chargers?
Yesterday my LGS had a triples ETC team style tournament.
My team was myself, a guy playing a Nurgle daemon horde, and a guy playing a Kronos anti psyker gunline.
I was the defender 2/3 matches as my team mates lists served as direct counters to some of the lists our opponents were bringing and my list was more of a TAC list anyway. My main goal was to win if possible, deny my opponents a full victory in the 10 point local format.
Here was my list:
Mars Battalion
Enginseer Monitor Malevolus Warlord
Cawl
Rangers 5man
Rangers 5man 2x Arquebus
Vanguard 6 man 2x Plasma
Vanguard 6 man 2x Plasma
4 Kastelans
Termite Drill
Knight Lance, House Taranis
Knight Crusader RFBC, Endless Fury, Ironstorm
Arm Helverin
Arm Helverin
My first game would have been a victory against a Dark Eldar/Eldar player but we were playing The Relic out of the BRB, and he used a trick where he used his last three command point to break an archon out of combat, got a lucky roll on his advance, and picked up the Relic.
He had literally nothing left but a couple characters and 2 pain engines on the board, and I had 4 Kastelans, Cawl, my drill, an Armiger, and the majority of my infantry left. He had taken the Knight Crusader but it took him all game to do it. Ignoring mortal wounds on a 5+ with the stratagem is key against Eldar haywire weapons.
So he pulled a "victory" on clock running down. He knows he would have lost the Relic if the game had gone on another turn.
My second game was against a Knight Valiant, a couple of armigers, and a Guard CP battery.
Kastelans took care of the Valiant, it only got to fire once, but never got to use the flamer or the harpoon.
After two volleys of fire from the Kastelans it went down.
The game was mine from that point on, we were playing that EW mission from the CA book where you gain a point by sitting on objectives.
I tied him on game score at the end because of the timer, again I had most of my army and he had nothing besides a thunderfire cannon, some manticores with no missiles and guardsmen.
My opponent talked about slow playing me at the end, said my Knight was 2cm from getting linebreaker, and since he had first strike and I didn't, said that he beat me by one point.
He's that kind of guy.
It was a draw at the end of the day, again that would have been a victory if the game had gone another turn and my opponent again talked about slow playing me. (we only had 2 hour rounds with set up by the way).
My last game against Death Guard, I wasn't the defender so I chose the matchup. It was a list with 3 daemon princes, 3 bloat drones, 3 crawler tanks, 2 predators, and some infantry and spawn here and there.
He conceded on turn 4.
So yeah, Cawl's moving Castle still works. If Don Hooson had to fight to admech with Cawl bots he would have lost. I looked at his list and I would have done well against it.
Oh yeah, it helps that I went first in all 3 games for once. But that's just kind of the game now.
lash92 wrote: So I wanna run a Drill with Vanguard to have some shooting backup for my priest. Would you run 2 small squads with 2 Plasma each or a big squad with 3 plasma in it to benefit from the +2 to hit stratagem.
Also weapons for the Drill: Just 2x Stormbolters or is anyone using the Volkite chargers?
If I were bringing it to a tournament, I would do MSUs:
+More Calivers
+More flexible
+Less vulnerable to morale
+Won't give up points
-Less protection for Calivers
-You can only buff one with Doctrina per turn
I prefer Storm Bolters:
+Cheaper; most point efficient
+Option to Deep Strike
But if you only intend to infiltrate them, then you can also do Heavy Flamer, which is nice against minus to hit enemies.
Mars Battalion
Enginseer Monitor Malevolus Warlord
Cawl
Rangers 5man
Rangers 5man 2x Arquebus
Vanguard 6 man 2x Plasma
Vanguard 6 man 2x Plasma
4 Kastelans
Termite Drill
Knight Lance, House Taranis
Knight Crusader RFBC, Endless Fury, Ironstorm
Arm Helverin
Arm Helverin
I think you might have faired better if you swapped the Crusader out for a Gallant and brought a Guard CP battery. Infantry are extremely important for shooting lists. They screen, play the board, thin out hordes, etc.
So yeah, Cawl's moving Castle still works. If Don Hooson had to fight to admech with Cawl bots he would have lost. I looked at his list and I would have done well against it.
Oh yeah, it helps that I went first in all 3 games for once. But that's just kind of the game now.
So you went 1-1-1 at a local tournament and you're confident you would have trounced the guy who won BAO? Makes sense.
So yeah, Cawl's moving Castle still works. If Don Hooson had to fight to admech with Cawl bots he would have lost. I looked at his list and I would have done well against it.
Oh yeah, it helps that I went first in all 3 games for once. But that's just kind of the game now.
So you went 1-1-1 at a local tournament and you're confident you would have trounced the guy who won BAO? Makes sense.
Just a reminder, the best AdMech list at BAO was also a Cawlstar list. Except that one had a Guard Battalion and used a Knight Styrix. (The closest analog to a Styrix is an Errant.)
Also, I just realized that the Forgebane Warglaives had those fancy cogtooth shoulders that go with the Styrix ones.
Since I added a Knight Gallant to my list i've been mostly experimenting with MSU of naked rangers and vanguard as meatshields for eating smite from my knight and HQ's.
Is there any way I'm missing that I can take a single knight in my list and give it the benefit of warlord traits or relics? So far the closest I came up with is making it a freeblade in a super heavy aux detachment and giving it the Guardian trait so it can intervene in charges but I don't feel as though the burdens are worth the trouble.
Any luck or synergy running Helverins with admech as opposed to Ballistari? I've got two Warglaives in the mail to accompany my knight but wouldn't mind expanding my force to include helverins in the future instead of buying ballistari kits $$
Ideasweasel wrote: Stratagems - exalted court, and heirlooms of the household.
2CP total sorts you out
Awesome, thanks! After a quick look at the stratagems online that solution was pretty apparent. I'm still waiting for my codex to arrive in the mail
One last question, does my single knight still gain its household trait even if its in a super heavy aux detachment? I plan to run it as House Krast with the first knight (krast specific) warlord trait.
Ideasweasel wrote: Stratagems - exalted court, and heirlooms of the household.
2CP total sorts you out
Awesome, thanks! After a quick look at the stratagems online that solution was pretty apparent. I'm still waiting for my codex to arrive in the mail
One last question, does my single knight still gain its household trait even if its in a super heavy aux detachment? I plan to run it as House Krast with the first knight (krast specific) warlord trait.
Sadly it does not. That’s the trade off for the SH aux detachment. You can use stratagems but you miss out on the house traits.
Well that's really why we considered super heavy detachments and Armiger's. +3 CP + 2* Armiger's + household.
And since I'm talking about it I consider styrix a heavy point pay
Since using a guard detachment makes it really pointless to be an aux knight detachment as well.
You need to decide are I fantry and CP pool and CP cycling important ??? If youwant that in your style you can't as said ( in the interview of the winner ) waste points . And you already waste points in plane infantry guard for cp ND CP cycling cause you need the more than death guard .
So you would be facing his list with more CP but his.10 man termies vs your guard . Squat ... He has durability all over and flamers while you don't. And im not complaining arm just trying to make a point here.
If you pay so many extra points for roles and holes you need to cover like a styrix knight costing 500 points and you ad on top an easy 200 guard meat then again you become that list that loose and easy Castelan ( point wise ) from lasgun and blaster shooing. More or less gimping your own lists.
And no Robots are not that tough nor onagers nor most things like plague crawlers or a super heavy armiger + knight list.
Not to mention Taranis fnp for knights healing etc and there the extra cp will benefit your knights one step more.
You can't waste so many points. Styrix is good I don't disagree but it's taking a toll in point plus ad mech is a taxed army on it's own! Same goes for extra troops with special guns and lists with two battalions! I'm not talking horde lists I'm talking about wasted lists.
Tips.
Providing enemy with hard choises. If you play with troops then you should consider taking some options.
Mortars for guard. Makes infantry squas as targets else they suck and in many games bypassed if not for first blood or assault armies. They die by accident and you should utilize the points. Especially if you consider there are elite options like termies or even our own infiltrators to give you a good example of obj camping units?
What would you do when you get hit from 35 shots and 10 melee att on 10 man infantry? Wasted points . A psycher some CP regiments etc can make the difference !!!! Use them that's the point!
And why the hell you won't use Armiger's??? +3 CP to begin with letting you spearhead Mars and cut the troops to minimum! Unless you play guard and one knight ven then I'd preffer super heavy detachment!!! .
So I´m working on a list for a restricted local tournament next week (1750pts) and I´m looking for some advice:
Restrictions:
Spoiler:
- 1750 points with max 2 detachments
- no unit more than 2 times (except Transport and Troops)
- Some restrictions regarding units of vehicles, which lead to: max 2 Kastellan Robots per unit and max 3 Dragoons / Ironstrider
- max 1 LoW
Most likely opponents:
Spoiler:
- Dark Eldar / Eldar Flyer and transports
- Imperial Guard Leman Russ spam
- Guard + Custodes
- Guard + Knight Castellan
- Tau Battlesuits
Im planing on playing AdMech + Blood Angels batallion:
- TPD + TPE
- 3 x 5 Skitarii
- 2 x Icarus Crawler
- 2 x Robots
- Captain Slam
- Lemartes
- 2 x 5 Scouts
- 1 x 5 Intercessors (which I find quite nice for holding midfield objectives)
- 10 Death Company with 7x B&C and 3x Hammer
That would leave me with about 250 points to spend. Maybe some Lascanon Ironstrider? Or give some Plasma to Vanguard and take a Drill?
Plasma Calivers are strong, especially against targets without an invulnerable save. But they are not in the same ballpark as Fulgurites or Kastelans for competitive play.
Sure, but you also got 21 Rad Carbines shots against things with high invulns. Sure you will most likely only be wounding on a 6. But every wound going through will be 2 dmg.
How would you play under the above posted restrictions if I might ask?
I think given the limitations you have a good list. My main concern is that if you take a drill you have alot of firepower off the table on turn one most likely. Youll also run into potentially having more than half of your power level in reserve which violates a beta rule.
I would say maybe opt for another squad of Kastelans, depending on what you have for marines maybe a thunderfire cannon? It can help against horde lists with the stratagem.
I have calculated everything and it would be barely even with PL on and off the board.
I can't take another squad Kastelans because I would have to take a Spearhead instead of a Batallion and I really need those CP for my Blood Angels.
Also unfortunately no TFC for Blood Angels. I would love to have some free points for Mephiston.
Smash batalion +5cp for offnce with scouts etc....
Super heavy +3 knights two Armiger's warden knight.
Because the restrictions don't allow you to utilise proper Robots numbers and without Cawl is even worse!
Helverins and warden will provide more consistency.
If I can't do that and I'm forced to play two battalions then I'd go for .
Smash battalion scouts must and then an extreme mobile force !
Stygian I'd use infiltration and flamer + dual guns on Robots .
3 lasc balistarii since it's the max I can take and the rest of your list. It's always good in this sort of fights to remember even a 5 man priest group can be of use and each unit can be decided /game to infiltrate. So I'd imagine my playstyle with smash batallions and what could help me more. Snipers for char shooting?? You d need 2*90 points . Most likely wasted.
Some autocsnnon balist to support two icarus ? Or three Dragoons. If you invest in two full dakka Robots and two icarus and balistsry and dominus then I'd definitely add 5 staff pries as counter to my gun line ause they will surelly come for it.
If you invest in assault mobile force then flamers on Robots vanguard with one plasma each for troops Dragoons in a squad of three and infiltrate .
ultimentra wrote: Yesterday my LGS had a triples ETC team style tournament.
My team was myself, a guy playing a Nurgle daemon horde, and a guy playing a Kronos anti psyker gunline.
I was the defender 2/3 matches as my team mates lists served as direct counters to some of the lists our opponents were bringing and my list was more of a TAC list anyway. My main goal was to win if possible, deny my opponents a full victory in the 10 point local format.
Here was my list:
Mars Battalion
Enginseer Monitor Malevolus Warlord
Cawl
Rangers 5man
Rangers 5man 2x Arquebus
Vanguard 6 man 2x Plasma
Vanguard 6 man 2x Plasma
4 Kastelans
Termite Drill
Knight Lance, House Taranis
Knight Crusader RFBC, Endless Fury, Ironstorm
Arm Helverin
Arm Helverin
My first game would have been a victory against a Dark Eldar/Eldar player but we were playing The Relic out of the BRB, and he used a trick where he used his last three command point to break an archon out of combat, got a lucky roll on his advance, and picked up the Relic.
He had literally nothing left but a couple characters and 2 pain engines on the board, and I had 4 Kastelans, Cawl, my drill, an Armiger, and the majority of my infantry left. He had taken the Knight Crusader but it took him all game to do it. Ignoring mortal wounds on a 5+ with the stratagem is key against Eldar haywire weapons.
So he pulled a "victory" on clock running down. He knows he would have lost the Relic if the game had gone on another turn.
My second game was against a Knight Valiant, a couple of armigers, and a Guard CP battery.
Kastelans took care of the Valiant, it only got to fire once, but never got to use the flamer or the harpoon.
After two volleys of fire from the Kastelans it went down.
The game was mine from that point on, we were playing that EW mission from the CA book where you gain a point by sitting on objectives.
I tied him on game score at the end because of the timer, again I had most of my army and he had nothing besides a thunderfire cannon, some manticores with no missiles and guardsmen.
My opponent talked about slow playing me at the end, said my Knight was 2cm from getting linebreaker, and since he had first strike and I didn't, said that he beat me by one point.
He's that kind of guy.
It was a draw at the end of the day, again that would have been a victory if the game had gone another turn and my opponent again talked about slow playing me. (we only had 2 hour rounds with set up by the way).
My last game against Death Guard, I wasn't the defender so I chose the matchup. It was a list with 3 daemon princes, 3 bloat drones, 3 crawler tanks, 2 predators, and some infantry and spawn here and there.
He conceded on turn 4.
So yeah, Cawl's moving Castle still works. If Don Hooson had to fight to admech with Cawl bots he would have lost. I looked at his list and I would have done well against it.
Oh yeah, it helps that I went first in all 3 games for once. But that's just kind of the game now.
Hopefully one day we can get in a game. I have played against cawl and his robots. It is not that threatening. Best of luck to you in your future games.
4 Kastellans with Cawl costs 680 points and outputs 54 hits per turn, or 12.6 points per hit.
3 Kastellans with Nobody around to buff them costs....... 12.2 points per hit.
If you happen to have 'reroll hit rolls of 1' on, for instance on your first turn where you can 100% select it if you want, that goes down to merely 10.5 points per hit.
When I first joined AdMech, we did not have Knights which were efficient long ranged damaged platforms. Enemy has Magnus or Mortarion? Better have your robots with mortal wounds ready.
Now however, I find the Cawlstar to be
1. Sickeningly effective when in range
2. Totally gnarly and awesome at killing infantry
3. Often overkilling what infantry units it can see
5. Often out of range of some units first turn, or out of LOS in later turns
6. A significant drain of command points at 2 per turn to Wrath of Mars
7. Just 'pretty good' at killing Magnus and Mortarion while the Castellan is maybe even better? Don't quote me on that I haven't run the numbers yet.
8. A big stationary target that represents points not advancing, not taking objectives
9. A total disaster if somehow charged by your opponent, which could be turn 1 if they are Magnus, though this is in theory at least partially your fault for not screening harder against 42" flying charge range
10. A 4-out-of-4 'Gang Busters' target in ITC rules
11. Like all BS4+ units, significantly weakened by the Meta environment of 'all my guys are -1 to be hit', which reduces their effectiveness by 25% even with Cawl standing around
12. Not well suited to the current Meta environment of 'flying units'
Based on these reasons I have decided to test dropping the 680 point 54-hits-per-turn Cawlstar down to a 330 point 32-hits-per-turn Kastelan unit. It's only 60% as strong in shooting output, but in return you get 350 points of Free Real Estate.
This is in my admittedly somewhat-limited experience, and in the context of Cawlstar Vanguard Detachment + IG Screening Battalion + House Raven Knight Castellan.
Meta is bipolar. Everyone has to have horde-like levels of infantry to play the board and a Knight. That or a way to deal with hordes and Knights. Furthermore, lists with generalized threats are key; silver bullet reactionary play and dominant strategies aside from hordes and Knights don't work.
Incidentally, the fact that everyone is specializing against these two threats allows a list like the one that won BAO to slip through. NOBODY knows how to play against deep striking Blightlord Terminators, and few people prepared any anti-elite shooting or fighting.
lash92 wrote: Sure, but you also got 21 Rad Carbines shots against things with high invulns. Sure you will most likely only be wounding on a 6. But every wound going through will be 2 dmg.
How would you play under the above posted restrictions if I might ask?
@ Yoda:
Thanks for your feedback, really appreciated. Unfortunately one of the restrictions is only one LoW, so I think I'll stick with my Stygies gunline.
@ Suzuteo :
Wouldn't you run into problems regarding the power level deepstrike rules? Because both parts of your army want to infiltrate or deepstrike.
Blood Angels don't really deep strike, not since the beta rule anyway. You advance deploy the Scouts and you Forlorn Fury move your Slamguinius in. If you bring a second Smash Captain, you can deep strike him. There is also turn 1 Upon WIngs of FIre to move an already deployed unit.
I consider Cawl a big issue as well. And I was trying to make the numbers work better .
My first thinking was also to remove Cawl but it does not seemed the proper way.
A) Cawl defines the canticle dice and it's not so unimportant as yo believe it to be. If you play a vehicle list shroud is really good? Reroll 1s in fight and +1 str can combo with various issues like attacking priest and Dragoons.
B) Cawl also buff Icarus onagers bs 4+ and Robots bs4+. Might sound not important or the numbers don't seem impressive but Cawl is the key for consinstency in ad mech list.
I can't invest two icarus and three Robots in back 4+
C) your antihorde and anti air unit named Icarus onager is hardly effective passed turn one that you d pick reroll ones canticle. After that your playing 330 + 260 points minimum bs4+ not to mention most defnsive tact's being -1 to hit.
D) Cawl reroll all hits not only missed hits. Making ad mech one of the most effective anti -1 defnce and anti air best in game.
E,) we invest points for results else I would use only d6 guns. And there the result vary vastly.
If you do come across a high valued target and you play first and your 3 Robots fail to deliver I don't believe I gotta say more.
Sure you might think 3 Robots same as 4 Robots and Cawl but you forget a critical factor. With Cawl and 4 Robots wrath of Mars worth definitely 2 CP cause I personally use them to kill anything on the table! Mortal wounds you pay with CP and in order to worth it you need to take a big unit.
Said it many times it's the ad mech design flaw. For me. You need both split units and big units for buff in ad mech cdex and it's stupid with suck idiotic tax hq etc.
Under this I will say that I consider testing 4 robots dual guns and flamers. Should be enough to deliver the punch reduce the over kill defend vs hordish tar pits and air units or -1 hit units.
Same concept 4*6*2 48 shots cool enough and double flamer I'm I'm not mistaken so 2*4 flamer shots. Seems more balanced for. My less screener list.
And Cawl playing a little bit more aggreciive. If I wanted to spam onagers with Icarus on 4+ I would definitely try a lot more guard no point on onagers.
That's why we play Cawl star and there are more or less the real restrictions you must consider in you list building.
Mortal wounds need Mars and Mars got the best range cheap system to throw mortals 36 far.
Piest are good but less synergy less buff more expensive more imobile even with drill. ( I use 5 man as counter to my robots)
Now if you are lucky enough to get your Robots target one then you want get other units hit! That's the deal. If I have a well defended Cawl star then the threat range is half the table? And no range or no sight is also a good sign of good preparations.
Stygies Batallion:
- 2 x TPE
- 3 x 5 Ranger
- 2 x 20 Priest
- 1 × 3 Dragoons
Blood Angels Batallion
- 2 x Smash Captain
- 3 x Scouts
Btw rules are that you can't infiltrate the drill with units embarked, so I went for the Priest without an transport.
The more is think about this list the more I like it and I worry at the same time.
Since I have basically no experience playing with mass Priest assault: How much am I screwed if I dont get first turn? It would be pretty hard to hide 2x20 Priest out of LOS while still beeing able to get a charge off next turn.
It was ruled that way by the TOs of the tournament I'm attending, because of the reason you just mentioned.
So I'm stuck with infiltrating priests without transport. Any feedback on this?
As for official clarification on the matter: I guess we have to wait till the next big FAQ?
lash92 wrote: It was ruled that way by the TOs of the tournament I'm attending, because of the reason you just mentioned.
So I'm stuck with infiltrating priests without transport. Any feedback on this?
As for official clarification on the matter: I guess we have to wait till the next big FAQ?
It's more expensive command point wise, but what about infiltrating them separately? That way you can use the drill to still charge in first to eat overwatch and then come in with the priests behind.
lash92 wrote: It was ruled that way by the TOs of the tournament I'm attending, because of the reason you just mentioned.
So I'm stuck with infiltrating priests without transport. Any feedback on this?
As for official clarification on the matter: I guess we have to wait till the next big FAQ?
It's more expensive command point wise, but what about infiltrating them separately? That way you can use the drill to still charge in first to eat overwatch and then come in with the priests behind.
This. You can infiltrate 12 Fulgurites for 2 CP still. Still worth it, I'd say.
lash92 wrote: Btw rules are that you can't infiltrate the drill with units embarked, so I went for the Priest without an transport.
Did they ever officially clarify that? I pointed out that Clandestine Infiltration doesn't have an embarked units clause like Screaming Jets does.
Wait, why would anyone rule that way? Fulgarites are <Forge World> Infantry, and the Subterranean Assault special rule specifically reads like this:
" During deployment, you can set up this model, along with any units embarked within it,
underground instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the end of any of your Movement phases, this model can
perform a subterranean assault – set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy
models. Any units embarked inside can then immediately disembark, but they must be set up more than 9" from
any enemy models. Any models that cannot be set up because there is not enough room are slain."
Why wouldn't the Tournament Organizers let AdMech use their own goddamn rules?
lash92 wrote: Btw rules are that you can't infiltrate the drill with units embarked, so I went for the Priest without an transport.
Did they ever officially clarify that? I pointed out that Clandestine Infiltration doesn't have an embarked units clause like Screaming Jets does.
Wait, why would anyone rule that way? Fulgarites are <Forge World> Infantry, and the Subterranean Assault special rule specifically reads like this:
" During deployment, you can set up this model, along with any units embarked within it,
underground instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the end of any of your Movement phases, this model can
perform a subterranean assault – set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy
models. Any units embarked inside can then immediately disembark, but they must be set up more than 9" from
any enemy models. Any models that cannot be set up because there is not enough room are slain."
Why wouldn't the Tournament Organizers let AdMech use their own goddamn rules?
They ruled that you can't use Clandestine Infiltration on it with units embarked. Not that it couldn't use its own subterranean assault, but that it couldn't carry embarked models with the Clandestine Infiltration stratagem.
No, I am saying that Electro-Priests were not popular in the past because they tended to die horribly at the hands of anti-infantry weapons. Given a choice between 2x12 in transports or 2 big groups of 20, I would take the smaller units any day.
The Drill does these things:
1) Protects them from turn one shooting.
2) Moves them into one-inch punch range.
3) Is a strong melee combatant that does very well against the targets Fulgurites might not want to fight.
4) Protects them from anti-infantry Overwatch on the charge.
Sure I´m aware of this and agree 100%.
Unfortunaly as stated before we are not allowed to infiltrate the drills with cargo inside at this tournament. Thats why I am leaning more towards infiltrating a big group of 20 dudes. But since I have practically no experience playing with that many priests I ask for advice: Is this investment to much of coinflip? I.e. if I get first turn I most likely win and if not I will win?
lash92 wrote: Sure I´m aware of this and agree 100%.
Unfortunaly as stated before we are not allowed to infiltrate the drills with cargo inside at this tournament. Thats why I am leaning more towards infiltrating a big group of 20 dudes. But since I have practically no experience playing with that many priests I ask for advice: Is this investment to much of coinflip? I.e. if I get first turn I most likely win and if not I will win?
People had used big priest blobs before the drills. It seems more dependent on getting the first turn.
lash92 wrote: Sure I´m aware of this and agree 100%.
Unfortunaly as stated before we are not allowed to infiltrate the drills with cargo inside at this tournament. Thats why I am leaning more towards infiltrating a big group of 20 dudes. But since I have practically no experience playing with that many priests I ask for advice: Is this investment to much of coinflip? I.e. if I get first turn I most likely win and if not I will win?
People had used big priest blobs before the drills. It seems more dependent on getting the first turn.
When playing with the infiltration restriction, the way see it you have a few options:
If you take a squad of 20 to minimize the infiltration cp cost, then you rely heavily on getting first turn. Thats whether you infiltrate 1-2 drills to soak overwatch or not.
If you take them in 2 x 12, yoi have a few more options, but ultimately it costs you at least 2 more Cp. You would infiltrate both fulgurite squads and 2 drills. if you get first turn you can deploy your drills along with both 12-man squads within 9” and use the drill to soak overwatch like a boss. Quids in. If you dont get first turn you can deploy them in the same place and have the fulgurites immediate embark on the drills for protection. Or you could deploy them elsewhere and embark them, using the drills for protection to get them close enough to charge. Old school.
lash92 wrote: Btw rules are that you can't infiltrate the drill with units embarked, so I went for the Priest without an transport.
Did they ever officially clarify that? I pointed out that Clandestine Infiltration doesn't have an embarked units clause like Screaming Jets does.
It doesnt have the rule because we dont have a transport in the codex. We had to pretty much beg for them to gives us rules for the Forgeworld one. I’m sure it’ll be FAQ’d in our favour and it’ll be the same as sceaming jets. But yeah, until that time, we’re at the mercy of the TO. Personally i think it’s a godawful ruling, the precedent is set with screaming jets, the transport was added after the strategms were written. If it were open to interpretation by who you’re playing against I would consider it a dick move by my opponent to disallow it.
lash92 wrote: Btw rules are that you can't infiltrate the drill with units embarked, so I went for the Priest without an transport.
Did they ever officially clarify that? I pointed out that Clandestine Infiltration doesn't have an embarked units clause like Screaming Jets does.
Wait, why would anyone rule that way? Fulgarites are <Forge World> Infantry, and the Subterranean Assault special rule specifically reads like this:
" During deployment, you can set up this model, along with any units embarked within it,
underground instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the end of any of your Movement phases, this model can
perform a subterranean assault – set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy
models. Any units embarked inside can then immediately disembark, but they must be set up more than 9" from
any enemy models. Any models that cannot be set up because there is not enough room are slain."
Why wouldn't the Tournament Organizers let AdMech use their own goddamn rules?
They ruled that you can't use Clandestine Infiltration on it with units embarked. Not that it couldn't use its own subterranean assault, but that it couldn't carry embarked models with the Clandestine Infiltration stratagem.
I always use priests, best unit by far. The drills are good but if you need to run as only priests it is tough. Id suggest a 3rd unit or some dragoons to overload threat potential. So if you go 2nd they have to pick what to hit. Next thing you need is cps and lots of them. Guard cp farm and blood angels cp farm is vital. 2cp autopass moral, 3cp fight again....thats 5cp every turn you need at least. Learn the in and oits of the fight phase to get the most out of them, learn how to pile in, consolidate, wrap units, free movement etc etc. Last game they took out 3 knights by t2 with the help of slam capt on one of them (ba and priests fight twice). Give it a try and good luck
Hmmm ... a cawl-less kastelan star. If they were STYGIES they would be a lot tougher than people expect. And you could infiltrate them into just the right spot. Hmmmm
Wulfey wrote: Hmmm ... a cawl-less kastelan star. If they were STYGIES they would be a lot tougher than people expect. And you could infiltrate them into just the right spot. Hmmmm
I always deploy robots and dragoons last unless i can see an opportunity to trick my opponent into creating an opening in their deployment. Peole know robots are bad news, so its quite easy to manipulate people into going for them while leaving an open flank for dragoons or something.
My 1000pts for throne of skulls has 3 robots and 4 dragoons for exactly this purpose. Even 3 robots unsupported is enough to delete a sqaud of most infantry a turn. I dont use mine for big targets i delete their chaff 1 or 2 at a time, they soon start to feel vulnerable as all their screens and troops start disappearing.
It feels very weird not having dunecrawlers though >.>
I know at least 3 of you guys were there to represent.
Great to see, do you happen to know what the list was that placed 5th?
Also just to chime in on the performance of a Styrix I took one to a smaller ITC tournament along with a Valiant and Crusader run as Taranis along with an AdMech Battalion with Vanguard and Hoplites. Ended up 7th of 36. I never felt like I was out gunned during the tournament. My first loss was to a Cutodes Biker spam+Guard Batt+Raven Castellan, it was poor objective placement on my part, being newish to running more than one Knight I placed my objective inside a building where it was difficult for my Knights to get to but easy for his bikers, he racked up way too many points off of that. At games end he had 20 Guardsmen left hiding from my wounded Valiant and full health Styrix after the pair of knights tossed aside my opponents Castellan like a rag doll, but I was outscored so it mattered not.
Second lost game was to a Thousand Son Daemon Prince spam list with Tzaangor and Bloodletter bombs (five daemon princes?) Unfortunately, later, I found out this fellow may have misread his rules as he tried to cast warp time on a blob of tzaangors that had just been Dark Matter Crystaled in, which you cannot do. I spent my Graia strategem to stop it but in return for that he cast Death Hex on my Styrix and a Daemon Prince of Khorne with titan killer axe took 22 wounds off of him due to his lack of invuln (killed him next turn with the Styrix at least, vengeance!) Games end I had an 18 Wound Crusader left, he had two critically wounded Daemon Princes, a Tzeentch Sorcerer, and 8 Tzaangors. Lost 19-21.
Other games I won was against a Space Wolf, unfortunately this guy didn't stand much of a chance and the game was essentially over when his Wulfen failed to kill my Valiant (thank you armor of the Sainted Ion+Taranis, only eight wounds done after all was said and the Valiant was repaired) and were subsequently roasted next turn, also my ten man Hoplite squad killed Arjac Rockfist when he charged them. Another win was against a Dark Eldar player, pretty cookie cutter DE list with some Haywire thrown in because Knight meta, he focused very heavily on the Styrix with basically every gun and lots of Haywire, a combination of Blessing of the Machine God (5+FnP against mortals), Taranis, repairs from a trusted Enginseer, Styrix inbuilt repair, and Rotate Ion Shields saw the Styrix live to this DE players tabling at the top of three. Final game I won was against a full Knight list with a Valiant, Raven Castellan, Gallant, and Errant. Tabled him by the top of three, the turning point for this game was when he charged my Styrix with his Gallant, I rotated Ion shields, took 8 damage from his Paragon Gauntlet (6 after Taranis) struck back, all four Hekaton Siege Claws hit, all four wounded, one shotted the Gallant with the Styrix.
Castellans aren't as scary as I thought, the two I faced were dead pretty quickly without doing too much. Invulns really hurt them, which my army had plenty of. I see why Cutodes Bikers are so good, they are fast, hit decently hard, and durable enough to stay on an objective for three turns easy. I felt a little jipped by my games with the Tzeentch Daemon list, it was a really crucial rule to get right and had he played it correctly I would have been denying Death Hex, because why wouldn't you? Guard are dumb, I expect a nerf to Guard CP Batts in the FAQ. Every Imperium army under the sun has one. I know it's good and efficient, but it's just sorta... lame? Yea, lame.
Anyway, sorry for the long winded Styrix plug. Always take the Rad Cleanser, he was easily mvp and died only in one game.
Wulfey wrote: Hmmm ... a cawl-less kastelan star. If they were STYGIES they would be a lot tougher than people expect. And you could infiltrate them into just the right spot. Hmmmm
I know at least 3 of you guys were there to represent.
Great to see, do you happen to know what the list was that placed 5th?
Also just to chime in on the performance of a Styrix I took one to a smaller ITC tournament along with a Valiant and Crusader run as Taranis along with an AdMech Battalion with Vanguard and Hoplites. Ended up 7th of 36. I never felt like I was out gunned during the tournament. My first loss was to a Cutodes Biker spam+Guard Batt+Raven Castellan, it was poor objective placement on my part, being newish to running more than one Knight I placed my objective inside a building where it was difficult for my Knights to get to but easy for his bikers, he racked up way too many points off of that. At games end he had 20 Guardsmen left hiding from my wounded Valiant and full health Styrix after the pair of knights tossed aside my opponents Castellan like a rag doll, but I was outscored so it mattered not.
Second lost game was to a Thousand Son Daemon Prince spam list with Tzaangor and Bloodletter bombs (five daemon princes?) Unfortunately, later, I found out this fellow may have misread his rules as he tried to cast warp time on a blob of tzaangors that had just been Dark Matter Crystaled in, which you cannot do. I spent my Graia strategem to stop it but in return for that he cast Death Hex on my Styrix and a Daemon Prince of Khorne with titan killer axe took 22 wounds off of him due to his lack of invuln (killed him next turn with the Styrix at least, vengeance!) Games end I had an 18 Wound Crusader left, he had two critically wounded Daemon Princes, a Tzeentch Sorcerer, and 8 Tzaangors. Lost 19-21.
Other games I won was against a Space Wolf, unfortunately this guy didn't stand much of a chance and the game was essentially over when his Wulfen failed to kill my Valiant (thank you armor of the Sainted Ion+Taranis, only eight wounds done after all was said and the Valiant was repaired) and were subsequently roasted next turn, also my ten man Hoplite squad killed Arjac Rockfist when he charged them. Another win was against a Dark Eldar player, pretty cookie cutter DE list with some Haywire thrown in because Knight meta, he focused very heavily on the Styrix with basically every gun and lots of Haywire, a combination of Blessing of the Machine God (5+FnP against mortals), Taranis, repairs from a trusted Enginseer, Styrix inbuilt repair, and Rotate Ion Shields saw the Styrix live to this DE players tabling at the top of three. Final game I won was against a full Knight list with a Valiant, Raven Castellan, Gallant, and Errant. Tabled him by the top of three, the turning point for this game was when he charged my Styrix with his Gallant, I rotated Ion shields, took 8 damage from his Paragon Gauntlet (6 after Taranis) struck back, all four Hekaton Siege Claws hit, all four wounded, one shotted the Gallant with the Styrix.
Castellans aren't as scary as I thought, the two I faced were dead pretty quickly without doing too much. Invulns really hurt them, which my army had plenty of. I see why Cutodes Bikers are so good, they are fast, hit decently hard, and durable enough to stay on an objective for three turns easy. I felt a little jipped by my games with the Tzeentch Daemon list, it was a really crucial rule to get right and had he played it correctly I would have been denying Death Hex, because why wouldn't you? Guard are dumb, I expect a nerf to Guard CP Batts in the FAQ. Every Imperium army under the sun has one. I know it's good and efficient, but it's just sorta... lame? Yea, lame.
Anyway, sorry for the long winded Styrix plug. Always take the Rad Cleanser, he was easily mvp and died only in one game.
The average score of all the AdMech players was #5 at the tournament. It means that the people bringing AdMech are outperforming the field. I actually think we're the bottom of the top tier right now.
Alright, so are you guys running TPDs with stygies? Maybe I can find an RTT next weekend ... err ... no I can't. Maybe in two weeks. I have the models to run something like this:
Wulfey wrote: Alright, so are you guys running TPDs with stygies? Maybe I can find an RTT next weekend ... err ... no I can't. Maybe in two weeks. I have the models to run something like this:
With that many shooting definitely go for a TPD. You have to view it that way: His effective point cost are about 70 points, because otherwise you would have to take a second Enginseer.
I know at least 3 of you guys were there to represent.
Second lost game was to a Thousand Son Daemon Prince spam list with Tzaangor and Bloodletter bombs (five daemon princes?) Unfortunately, later, I found out this fellow may have misread his rules as he tried to cast warp time on a blob of tzaangors that had just been Dark Matter Crystaled in, which you cannot do.
Just for clarity as its something you may see people doing more now its been discovered you absolutely can warptime a unit which has been dark matter crystalled.
The faq states you cannot warptime a unit which arrived from reinforcements. Dark matter crystal is in no way reinforcements, its simply a method of moving a unit. the unit was already on the board at the start of the turn and at no stage enters reinforcements.
Its actually the same rules definition that allows units already on the board to 'deep strike' outside of their deployment zone on turn one. Which as we know was clarified to be correct by GW.
The same is also true of things like Da jump and Upon wings of fire though I dont think theirs a double move option for those armies.
I know at least 3 of you guys were there to represent.
Second lost game was to a Thousand Son Daemon Prince spam list with Tzaangor and Bloodletter bombs (five daemon princes?) Unfortunately, later, I found out this fellow may have misread his rules as he tried to cast warp time on a blob of tzaangors that had just been Dark Matter Crystaled in, which you cannot do.
Just for clarity as its something you may see people doing more now its been discovered you absolutely can warptime a unit which has been dark matter crystalled.
The faq states you cannot warptime a unit which arrived from reinforcements. Dark matter crystal is in no way reinforcements, its simply a method of moving a unit. the unit was already on the board at the start of the turn and at no stage enters reinforcements.
Its actually the same rules definition that allows units already on the board to 'deep strike' outside of their deployment zone on turn one. Which as we know was clarified to be correct by GW.
The same is also true of things like Da jump and Upon wings of fire though I dont think theirs a double move option for those armies.
Fortunately this was discussed at length. The FAQ states that units with such abilities (Gate of Infinity, Dark Matter Crystal) ignore the whole you cant deepstrike outside of your deployment zone turn one thing, HOWEVER the FAQ also states that those units are treated as reinforcements.
As per the reinforcements rules they cannot move or advance any further for their entire turn. They can, however, still charge and shoot.
Since warptime specifically states they MOVE as if it is the movement phase, and the reinforcements rule states that the unit that has arrived as reinforcements cannot MOVE or advance for their turn, and the unit IS treated as reinforcements from the FAQ, they cannot receive warptime.
Important distinction between moving and charging, just as a final note.
Hey folks, can someone assist my understanding of drill shenanigans please.
If I went mars and took 12 electro priests, I could deep strike the drill and have it pop up turn 2, 9” away from an enemy unit ...but I would then face the issue of disembarking units unable to move and potentially stand there ready to be shot to pieces on my opponents turn.
Is that correct?
Is that why most people just go stygies to take advantage of the move + charge.
Anyone have any success with using priests in a mars list?
That's right, you have to disembark more than 9" away from the enemy, that's why you take the infiltration of Stygies.
I haven't played drill + Priest in a Mars list, but I really don't see why you would want to do that? You already got a mortal wound generator with your robots and as you have observed they are so much better with stygies. A 9" charge without some rerolls or stratagems like Blood Angels for example have is just to unreliable.
Yeah. Weighing up the eventual purchase of a drill. Not quite convinced yet but will see if I change my mind. Might have to proxy one and see if I like it
So guys tell me, what are your tactics against knights atm? I played a RTT last weekend and well I thought I could handle them. Well, turned out I couldnt and I lost the final table against that stupid Castellan and his shooty friends -.-
Iago40k wrote: So guys tell me, what are your tactics against knights atm? I played a RTT last weekend and well I thought I could handle them. Well, turned out I couldnt and I lost the final table against that stupid Castellan and his shooty friends -.-
Every list needs to bring Fulgurites, Drills, Smash Captains, other Knights (typically Castellans or Styrix) in addition to the usual Dragoons or Kastelans.
Iago40k wrote: So guys tell me, what are your tactics against knights atm? I played a RTT last weekend and well I thought I could handle them. Well, turned out I couldnt and I lost the final table against that stupid Castellan and his shooty friends -.-
Every list needs to bring Fulgurites, Drills, Smash Captains, other Knights (typically Castellans or Styrix) in addition to the usual Dragoons or Kastelans.
Thanks for the answer. I just wait for the FAQ then^^
I know you are more of a Custodes player Iago, but you really should try out some BA. They complement Admech really nice and Smash Cpts are beasts and really hard to screen against, since they are single models.
lash92 wrote: I know you are more of a Custodes player Iago, but you really should try out some BA. They complement Admech really nice and Smash Cpts are beasts and really hard to screen against, since they are single models.
I know. Played them a couple of times. They are the answer to everything at the moment. Which is why I was kind of hoping to get some new ideas...taking a BA battalion just brings me closer to ditch AdMech since I can take a AMCP batters and that big ass kight.... oh well.
I am preparing for the Alliance open GT in Amsterdam and they have a CP farming rule in effect which is what I think GW will use either with the FAQ or CA 2018. You can only fish for CP if the stratagem used was used by a unit from the detachment which is able to fish. Genious
Seems like a good way to restrict CP farm. Under those circumstances I would really make an argument for BA + AdMech: You aren't forced to take Guard and you could at least get some CP farm with the Veritas Vitae.
Ideasweasel wrote: So suzuteo im curious, is a drill and 12 priests that much better than 20 priests teleporting In minus the vehicle?
Is the drill there for 2nd turn insurance only or for a first turn scenario is the drill still favourable?
Just had a game last weekend against a full Knight house - 2v2, 6000 points for each side. My 3 Termite drills were what absolutely destroyed Knights. The Knights not having a save in close combat against the drills was awesome, and caused helverins/armigers to immediately die on their entrance. With fire support, they were fully capable of destroying regular knights, too. They were very easy to destroy outside of close combat, though. Having no invul save hurts A LOT. With Fulgarite companions doing a little more mortal wounds would make the drills even more effective - I didn't have any electro priests.
Ideasweasel wrote: Yeah. Weighing up the eventual purchase of a drill. Not quite convinced yet but will see if I change my mind. Might have to proxy one and see if I like it
Just FYI if you plan on proxying, i was at warhammer world over the weekend and they have one built in the forgeworld shop. That thing is huge! Way bigger than i expected. I was hoping i could proxy a hades breaching drill given its half the price, but it’s also at least half the size as well! Footprint wise they had it sat next to an aurox armoured transport, which looks to be almost as big as a land raider, and it was half as long again and an inch taller.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also i just noticed something on the drill datasheet: it says it can transport 12 secutarii infantry or <forge world> Infantry. So if you for example wanted to drop a squad of hoplites, admitedly not quite as tasty as fulgurites, you could have your drill in a stygies patrol and the hoplites could use it regardless of what forgworld detachment they were in.
Which means your hoplites with two lots of mars canticles could be transported in your stygies drill and still keep all the benefits of mars.
I welcome the CP battery change since I got sick of a must have guard all over the lists. And not on!y that not taking guard was a serious gimp defacto .
On the other hand I m starting to wonder about our efficiency again. What would priests become with out 3 CP. Fight again.
How would you use Robots and knights and any combo cp heavy .
Not to mention ad mech has no real CP cycling options nor knights????
So for the game I'm glad and yes I consider adding a drill in place of the guard part of my army but I still wondering how effective will my list become with a change like that.
They need to change ad mech CP cycling as well with this hot fix . And any other army with no option for it. And no I care not to be guard but our WT could easily become something of worked with 5s????????
Question I m converting a drop pod making it a bit bigger since I extended the borders . I'm I far from. It ??? Can someone elaborate.?for size...of drill
Q2 drill 1-2 enginseers and 10-12 priests infiltrated how many CP to make it ? 1 for all or separate for each unit ?
1cp to infiltrate a drill and its contents. I tried adding an enginseer with 11 priests but have found he does nothing as the drill is normally dead before he can try to heal it lol. But it does help lower drops.
Drill is approx. 7.5" x 3.5" x 3.5".
As for the cp farm i agree with yoda. Without cp farming admec is in trouble as is adding things like blood angels to fill our gaps. Imo getting those cps is the only way to make admec competative atm.
It is tough as the guard cp farm does make other imperium lists a bit op but for admec it is a staple to make us viable in a tournament.
Envii wrote: 1cp to infiltrate a drill and its contents. I tried adding an enginseer with 11 priests but have found he does nothing as the drill is normally dead before he can try to heal it lol. But it does help lower drops.
Drill is approx. 7.5" x 3.5" x 3.5".
As for the cp farm i agree with yoda. Without cp farming admec is in trouble as is adding things like blood angels to fill our gaps. Imo getting those cps is the only way to make admec competative atm.
It is tough as the guard cp farm does make other imperium lists a bit op but for admec it is a staple to make us viable in a tournament.
We are only losing the Guard relic though right? Our batallions can also be very cheap, and we can still take monitor malevolent. Is it due to rule of 3 with enginseers?
Nothing confirmed but as it is used in almost every single list atm i cant see it lasting. Whilst yes we go have monitor marvelous but honestly its not a patch on guard one.
Is the CP battery confirmed nerfed into the ground?
People are talking as if it is, I wondered the source for this update
Cheers
CP recycling might be faction restricted. In which case we will probably take Monitor Malevolus, Aquila, and Veritas Vitae while continuing to run the same lists. We'll have to see.
I hope they give +1 CP for Spearhead, Outrider, and Vanguard and -1 CP to Battalion though. Rule of three should curb craziness.
Just curious, don't currently collect AdMech but am considering a small force and was wondering -
Is it possible to create a more.. dynamic, in your face, CQC kind of an AdMech list?
Basically thinking of something not at all like the standard Cawl+Gunline+Dakkastelans.
Robots with fists and flamers, a couple dragoons, infiltrators, maybe a unit of priests (but I don't want too many bodies, rather it was a pretty low model count army).
Just wondered if this was possible. Not looking for tournament competitive, but decent would be nice.
Seems like gw don't want to have all armies all options.
Decent list with robots melee oriented lists flamers with no real invu in cc? The competitive game has tons to do with the player playing the game but requires at least balance out some point/usage in you list.
Go melee have your fun not with Robots. you can use infiltrators effectively. Dragoons taser weapons in general . Use drills and staff priests units that can actually be decent as assault force. And in mass can provide some results. Not as easy as a small captain setup but versarioe and with some nice options.
Ad mech stygies outrider with any short of Dragoons and or balistarii + priests and drills can provide a solid base to build upon! Infiltrators I use if I play solo Mars and I want a deep strike option. Blasters and wrath of Mars have some consistency
Infiltrating Dragoons or drilp even with plasma vanguard's got a point. Robots don't. Better take hoplites if you are up for it better screener ok cpper etc.
I’d love to try some hoplites, they seem like a good halfway house between the two priest flavours but for much less points. Just a shame they dont get a <forge world> keyword for infiltration. Could still do it with a drill though i guess.
Plus the models are much more appealing than either priest, for me at least.
Hoplites are strong in pure AdMech lists. It lets you take Omniscient Mask without it being a total waste; brjng 11 Hoplites and an Enginseer in a Drill.
A friend of mine is struggling against nids. The nid player is using a swarm of two 30+ termagsunt broods with two squads of warriors acting as heavy shooting and LoSignoring arty, with some Thorpes' and that floating gas HQ thing.
He keeps getting caught due to lack of effective firepower, but I'd like your guys I put as my knowledge of admech is really limited. Some tips against the big guys (caries and tyrants etc) would be helpful as when they play bigger games those things will definitely show up.
He has a wide array of units, and runs pure admech for info.
Dr. Mills wrote: A friend of mine is struggling against nids. The nid player is using a swarm of two 30+ termagsunt broods with two squads of warriors acting as heavy shooting and LoSignoring arty, with some Thorpes' and that floating gas HQ thing.
He keeps getting caught due to lack of effective firepower, but I'd like your guys I put as my knowledge of admech is really limited. Some tips against the big guys (caries and tyrants etc) would be helpful as when they play bigger games those things will definitely show up.
He has a wide array of units, and runs pure admech for info.
Robots kill the termagaunts
Onager Dunecrawlers kill the big stuff
Knight Castellan of House Raven kills the big stuff dead dead dead DEAD.
Dr. Mills wrote: A friend of mine is struggling against nids. The nid player is using a swarm of two 30+ termagsunt broods with two squads of warriors acting as heavy shooting and LoSignoring arty, with some Thorpes' and that floating gas HQ thing.
He keeps getting caught due to lack of effective firepower, but I'd like your guys I put as my knowledge of admech is really limited. Some tips against the big guys (caries and tyrants etc) would be helpful as when they play bigger games those things will definitely show up.
He has a wide array of units, and runs pure admech for info.
A 10 man squad of simple radcarbines can make the gaunts disappear. With an omnispex, tyranids don't even get cover saves.
A) I have already started to play almost solo ad mech.
I m from my nature a competitive player so keep in mind I always put restrictions in my lists .
So rules when I test and make lists. I don't use dual detachments. Tragic to see three battalions it's not a strategy game it's sad . And for the same reason I have removed the guard recycle battery from my lists . I hated from day one of 8th so have guiliman then guard etc etc then Back then custodes in all competitive lists. It's boring and stupid for me.
But top it all was the guard CP cycle. Brigade and battalion 5+ changes was enough . I don't want to play custodes and spam 10 CP always. It turns the game badly strategically wise. And after the changes in Temple terrace weapons and cover its becoming a boring game not an serious one for me.
That said.
B) As I mentioned after the theoritical change and removing the CP cycling ad mech is facing once more a challenge.
I use lately 11 CP initial in a super heavy and battalion combo Mars knights making this almost a solo ad mech list I hope since the knights are mechanicus tbh.
11cp. So far no cycling CP. Seems doable for 1-2-3 rounds if all goes ok but won't have CP to pass second round for any reason.
Either it would be a fight phase interrupt a reroll charge ion shiled wrath of Mars etc the CP are really easy to waste. So the limitation once more made me reconsider the list building.
C) made some extensive testing around some areas. And I'd like to share some info. So e questions for you all to think and some feedback from various games. Testing separate parts of my lists example playing a 1000k game stygies detachment then another Mars 1500 etc done not mean when you form 2000k the conclusion will be there he same . I knew it was not the same but I hoped it would at least give me some info. Beyond playing some units you had not previously played it's better to focus in your lists close to the points you plan to play.
So before I bust your balls more here it is .
Knights
If it's not Castelan don't take a single knights. Super heavy it's good. 3+ CP is vital would need it to pass many tour restrictions and can deliver.
I'd suggest easily now 2 melee knights or even three any combination of knight and Armiger's its effective.
As for Armiger's helverins only. Unfortunately they are more consistent? I really tried to get warglaives in my mix but they do not deliver. They just won't.
As for the bigger knights. I prefer cheprs =better but stromspesr rocket pod is a must. Then whatever suits your needs.
Following my thinking here about Armiger's and knight you can easily abjust your lists to complete ad mech changing your super heavy with an outrider dual autocsnnon balistari and a bigger dragoon.
Basic format cheap can deliver and should be almost same effective with it's positives and negatives vs a super heavy detachment. Mainly the 3+ CP vs 1+ but consider this a valid assault mech option. Almost same philoshy as knight less durable but still good fro many reasons especially the -1 to hit vs 6+fnp on Taranis knights. For me at least .
The classic Cawl star . I tried 4 robots flamers o. Top guns in hands . It's not working cause mobility does not exist. Either way enemies will not charge them the full gun overwatch is bad enough don't need flamers ven dual ones if you got Cawl.
I started to use robots with less screen seems to be working better than pile in and engage robots in all games . Wanna charge my robots go ahead that's it. Try to kill really small units . Have your onager in interception range could help if played right . Not good to have more in there.
Our troops suck and give every game free points! 5 man trash not worth it and there lies the question.
I'm considering lowering more my CP to remove the troops. I almost lost a game cause those 3*5 man rangers die from a breeze. 3 kill points lossing obj etc etc every single game don't nothing seriously . 5 CP sure for battalion we need but it's sad. Or I'm seriously gonna make it a graia stock battalion and even that is an issue . One plasma sniper all wasted points . A freaking lasgun kills then all . I don't know you tell me.
Loved my Errant will try Paladin seems valid as well don't forget Strom spear . Helverins helverins helverins and try autocsnnon balistari as well seem valid.
Cawl star. fter the combination with helverins I seriously consider my two onagers becoming neutrons instead of Icarus. For some reason my onagers have become somewhat screeners moving obstacles tar pits and don't seem to have a big effect vs many of the targets I need to kill. Helverins can kill fliers one neutron can shoot flier and the other will Cawl can risk it. One good shot can make the difference . Still thinking about it and I could use some feedback as well.
2 Icarus two neutrons or 1-1. Tell me what you think.
Drill priests.
No drill no priests for me and most don't play forgeworlds units. Same for hoplites that I consider truly worthy units. They don't play unf. If your rules allow it then staff priests and drills and peltasts for obj. Superb. Use also stratagem for extra +1 save and attack. Love them. If not styies then no point.
I found infiltrators extremely effective when I play solo Mars lists.
My Mars knight list depends on giving many valid targets to my enemy and making it hard to choose. Dropped infiltrators used wrath of Mars killed enemy warlord charged eliminated obj campers. Best option to be able to move out or even screen where you need a deep strike good bad I don't know they work for me. 25 shots usually as Mars reroll ones on hit with dual canticles and wrath for result. And die ofc after wards . If you fail the charge could be a point sink but 110 points is an option you got no other out of stygies? Drill etc if you fgw.
Tip : bihnary override for Robots can be used in any phase. So vs dark eldar don't forget to use it on your movement phase and then on your attacking phase bla bla
Regarding Dunecrawlers:
I'm a firm believer of Icarus, but I also don't have Hellverins for anti air.
I don't know your local meta, but in my most tough things have a pretty good invuln, so that Neutron is a huge waste for me. If I would be playing against lot of armour like Leman Russes or Razorbacks I would definitely use them.
If you use them mainly for screening maybe take Eradication Beamers? They would save you 70 points compared with 2x Neutron.
lash92 wrote: Regarding Dunecrawlers:
I'm a firm believer of Icarus, but I also don't have Hellverins for anti air.
I don't know your local meta, but in my most tough things have a pretty good invuln, so that Neutron is a huge waste for me. If I would be playing against lot of armour like Leman Russes or Razorbacks I would definitely use them.
If you use them mainly for screening maybe take Eradication Beamers? They would save you 70 points compared with 2x Neutron.
If Crawlers could fall back and still shoot, sure Beamers wouldn't be a bad idea. As is? No. They'll want to be close and then they'll get tied up in melee most likely.
Ideasweasel wrote: Unrelated...but slayer fan, you catching their farewell tour?
Beep boop beep...adjusting thrash metal protocols
Already caught the Sac show! Behemoth was excellent as usual but Testament were not as fun as they should've been. Anthrax and Lamb of God rocked the venue as usual and no need to speak for the crowd for Slayer!
Dragoons
I found that using just four is not good, my opponent can always shoot dead one or two before their charge, so i think that six is mandatory, as only 4 can reach CC.
I also noticed that two armigers are a good support for the Dragoons, as the opponent has to deal with them fast so more Dragoons are able to land in CC. In the end both armigers will be dead but they absorb a lot of fire and they cannot be ignored.
Then your opponts dice are loaded or you play only against doulble agc knights overwatch isnt that consistant ive cobsistently had no such problems with 4.
@Yoda79 either you build competatively in which case you select the best unit for the job or you don't in which case you build a non-competative army. Some competative armies can be mono most are not. Trying to build a mono competative army is a restriction that makes your army non competativw.
If your army would be stronger with a guard CP battery and 3 HWT take it. Then look at what admech can offer. Dragoons priests etc
U02dah4 wrote: Then your opponts dice are loaded or you play only against doulble agc knights overwatch isnt that consistant ive cobsistently had no such problems with 4.
@Yoda79 either you build competatively in which case you select the best unit for the job or you don't in which case you build a non-competative army. Some competative armies can be mono most are not. Trying to build a mono competative army is a restriction that makes your army non competativw.
If your army would be stronger with a guard CP battery and 3 HWT take it. Then look at what admech can offer. Dragoons priests etc
What loaded dice you are using to avoid losing 1+ pre-overwatch?-) I don't see how you can T1 charge with them knights if he doesn't want to(can you even if they don't try to prevent? M10" doesnt' seem like fast enough you can do it realistically...Well maybe if you can advance and charge but even with 6" advance that leaves 8" charge and no way knight player is stupid enough to park you exactly 24.1" front of you) so even if you go first he should have minimum of 1 round(plus overwatch). Castellan alone will drop several from squad. Albeit other knights don't shoot that well but for example average of 7 S6 -2 D2 hits will drop 1. Charging there will result another ~4 wounds to next one. This from the relic gatling. Plus others.
What buffs for damage dragoons get? 4 of them in contact, 12 attacks, 12 hits in average, 6 wounds, 3 past saves, D6. Good but not even damaged knight. Average retaliate from naked knight almost 9 wounds.
I wouldn't dare to try such a charge with just 4. 1-2 going before I can even charge, one guy damaged to overwatch, then damage output for 4 guys is only 25% of a knight(while costing over 50% of a knight).
No way you just get 12 hits. I'm not at home atm so can't to the math, but for 1 CP you are hitting on 2's with exploding hits on a 4+. Maybe you even have the reroll 1's canticle.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just did the math it's 22 hits (without rerolling 1's)
lash92 wrote: No way you just get 12 hits. I'm not at home atm so can't to the math, but for 1 CP you are hitting on 2's with exploding hits on a 4+. Maybe you even have the reroll 1's canticle.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just did the math it's 22 hits (without rerolling 1's)
That's why I ASKED what buffs they get. I don't have ad mech codex yet so I dont' know their strategems.
But bit better. 11 wounds to a knight. Not even next bracket though. Then he will flee and shoot. And that's with 4 dragoons in combat and that's never going to happen if you start with 4 if knight player wants you to get with less. 1-2 rounds of shooting + overwatch=1 model is pretty much quaranteed to die.
If you are facing castellan you are looking at plasma killing 1 dragoon and volcano lance another. Third damaged by shoulder cannons. This without raven strategem. With that expect 1-2 more.
That's why if you want to use those to dent a knight take the 6. That's not going to work at all if knights go first though.
Well unless you have access to at least 4++ for them.
You could also pop the canticle which gives +1 Strength, so you would do 14.67 wounds.
There was also a discussion here a while ago, that you could try to surround the knight, since he can only fall back through infantry units.
Are we taking into consideration stygies clandestine infiltration with the dragoons. They have the potential to do considerable damage if they catch a knight in the open and get the teleport(1st turn required)
Talking about T1 charge winning the first turn is pointless, as nothing can guarantee you the first turn.
So I take 6 dragoons as I usually play against demons, knights, necrons, guard, tau and every one of these armies is able to hit hard in the shooting phase and even stygies dragoons will take some casualties.
Matehammer says that 4 dragoons deal 7 wounds to a standard knight vs 6 dragoons that deal 11 wound (with conqueror doctrina AND reroll 1 )
Buffs
6 dragoons stygies strategem deploy at 9 move then charge 2" T1
Canticle +1S
Omniscient mask relic reroll 1's
Stratagem +2 to hit
6 dragoons
So reroll1's tripple hit in 4+ hit on 2+ =33hits s8 ap1 2D
So vs a knight 22W
anything less than a knight is dead
As to overwatch well AGC 2 hits 1W 0.84 sv 1.64D
Hvy flamer 0.77D
Stubber 0.08D
Thermal C 1.3D
Ironstorm 0.26D
So EXP 4.04W from a crusader level knight with ironstorm so yes most of the time one won't die on the charge
Sadly speaking competivly the answer to most of the problems above (anti flyer, how to take on knights) is answered by slam capts. They will take out most flyers by themselves. Vs knights no overwatch so charge 1st then add in for example priests. If interupted the capt dies but fights again when killed then the priests will mop up the remaining few wounds and get the 3++. If either whiff simply fight again (can do it from both codexs). As a pair they pump out a horrendous amount of damage. Competitivly its the best as admec can do imo.
The one thing most seem to miss is that admec do not have acess to anything with the fly keyword. In 8th it is vital. We have to ally in to get it.
It’s probably something primaries related but you never know. Anyone catch some of the nova streams last week? Anytime the chat mentioned Admech, Geoff incontrol ignored or skirted the questions completely...which I thought was a tad odd, he must of seen some of them as any stream I clicked on was filled with Admech comments.
Anyway last game he said there were things coming that he can’t talk about but he’s so excited to know are coming, that could be interpreted as any faction but....
I’m thinking that it’s possible there is a shiny Admech toy on the horizon
I dont think anyi flyers so important mostly because since storm raven spam nerf's kicked in you don't see a lot and whats left can either be onagered or ignored.
brugner8 wrote: Dragoons
I found that using just four is not good, my opponent can always shoot dead one or two before their charge, so i think that six is mandatory, as only 4 can reach CC.
I also noticed that two armigers are a good support for the Dragoons, as the opponent has to deal with them fast so more Dragoons are able to land in CC. In the end both armigers will be dead but they absorb a lot of fire and they cannot be ignored.
I take 4x Dragoons because moving them around is a real problem. (6x can get stuck quite easily, actually.) If you bring good anti-air, then maybe 6x Dragoons is okay.
Also, a lot of the thinking on this thread is really fixating on Dragoon damage output. Yes, the lance is powerful, and Dragoons are scary when they close in. But Dragoons are also actually extremely durable against a large array of threats in its "class," and thus, they present a high opportunity cost threat to the opponent. By opportunity cost, I mean that very few enemies are specializing against T6, -2 to hit vehicles. Thus, your opponent will almost always be forced to commit something that could be used against another valuable target to kill your Dragoons.
That's why I am busy building Drills and Fulgurites to play something like this:
Spoiler:
Blood Angels Supreme Command Detachment - 403
HQ - 403 1x Captain w/ Jump Pack [6] - Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, Warlord Trait: Artisan of War, Relic: Angel's Wing, Death Visions of Sanguinius
1x Captain w/ Jump Pack [6] - Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, Relic: Veritas Vitae, Death Visions of Sanguinius
1x Mephiston [8] - Powers: Quickening, Unleash Rage, Wings of Sanguinius
MT Battalion Detachment - 183
HQ - 60 1x Company Commander [2] - Laspistol, Chainsword, Relic: Kurov's Aquila
1x Company Commander [2] - Laspistol, Chainsword
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If Crawlers could fall back and still shoot, sure Beamers wouldn't be a bad idea. As is? No. They'll want to be close and then they'll get tied up in melee most likely.
Nah. Rule of three kills the Beamer Crawler spam option.
The Guard Cp battery is really orrible, I mean no offense but I'll never play such a soup list. Anyway it seemm that competitive play compels it, so have fun with your list.
Actually I can field one very similar using a Mechanicus Cp Battery, which I think is less obscene.
brugner8 wrote: Dragoons
I found that using just four is not good, my opponent can always shoot dead one or two before their charge, so i think that six is mandatory, as only 4 can reach CC.
I also noticed that two armigers are a good support for the Dragoons, as the opponent has to deal with them fast so more Dragoons are able to land in CC. In the end both armigers will be dead but they absorb a lot of fire and they cannot be ignored.
I take 4x Dragoons because moving them around is a real problem. (6x can get stuck quite easily, actually.) If you bring good anti-air, then maybe 6x Dragoons is okay.
Also, a lot of the thinking on this thread is really fixating on Dragoon damage output. Yes, the lance is powerful, and Dragoons are scary when they close in. But Dragoons are also actually extremely durable against a large array of threats in its "class," and thus, they present a high opportunity cost threat to the opponent. By opportunity cost, I mean that very few enemies are specializing against T6, -2 to hit vehicles. Thus, your opponent will almost always be forced to commit something that could be used against another valuable target to kill your Dragoons.
That's why I am busy building Drills and Fulgurites to play something like this:
Spoiler:
Blood Angels Supreme Command Detachment - 403
HQ - 403 1x Captain w/ Jump Pack [6] - Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, Warlord Trait: Artisan of War, Relic: Angel's Wing, Death Visions of Sanguinius
1x Captain w/ Jump Pack [6] - Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, Relic: Veritas Vitae, Death Visions of Sanguinius
1x Mephiston [8] - Powers: Quickening, Unleash Rage, Wings of Sanguinius
MT Battalion Detachment - 183
HQ - 60 1x Company Commander [2] - Laspistol, Chainsword, Relic: Kurov's Aquila
1x Company Commander [2] - Laspistol, Chainsword
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If Crawlers could fall back and still shoot, sure Beamers wouldn't be a bad idea. As is? No. They'll want to be close and then they'll get tied up in melee most likely.
Nah. Rule of three kills the Beamer Crawler spam option.
I am running a similar list but have found making the BA a battalion with scouts to be very useful for getting a nice safe space for the drills and for early move blocking knights. I also have dropped dragoons entirely as they die so dam fast vs knights. Trialing adding a flyer to blow up screens and odd small units. Sad but im getting less and less admec in my list these days
brugner8 wrote: Dragoons
I found that using just four is not good, my opponent can always shoot dead one or two before their charge, so i think that six is mandatory, as only 4 can reach CC.
I also noticed that two armigers are a good support for the Dragoons, as the opponent has to deal with them fast so more Dragoons are able to land in CC. In the end both armigers will be dead but they absorb a lot of fire and they cannot be ignored.
I take 4x Dragoons because moving them around is a real problem. (6x can get stuck quite easily, actually.) If you bring good anti-air, then maybe 6x Dragoons is okay.
Also, a lot of the thinking on this thread is really fixating on Dragoon damage output. Yes, the lance is powerful, and Dragoons are scary when they close in. But Dragoons are also actually extremely durable against a large array of threats in its "class," and thus, they present a high opportunity cost threat to the opponent. By opportunity cost, I mean that very few enemies are specializing against T6, -2 to hit vehicles. Thus, your opponent will almost always be forced to commit something that could be used against another valuable target to kill your Dragoons.
That's why I am busy building Drills and Fulgurites to play something like this:
Spoiler:
Blood Angels Supreme Command Detachment - 403
HQ - 403 1x Captain w/ Jump Pack [6] - Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, Warlord Trait: Artisan of War, Relic: Angel's Wing, Death Visions of Sanguinius
1x Captain w/ Jump Pack [6] - Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, Relic: Veritas Vitae, Death Visions of Sanguinius
1x Mephiston [8] - Powers: Quickening, Unleash Rage, Wings of Sanguinius
MT Battalion Detachment - 183
HQ - 60 1x Company Commander [2] - Laspistol, Chainsword, Relic: Kurov's Aquila
1x Company Commander [2] - Laspistol, Chainsword
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If Crawlers could fall back and still shoot, sure Beamers wouldn't be a bad idea. As is? No. They'll want to be close and then they'll get tied up in melee most likely.
Nah. Rule of three kills the Beamer Crawler spam option.
Are they the forgeworld drills Suzuteo? Are you finding them easy enough to put together?
brugner8 wrote: Dragoons
I found that using just four is not good, my opponent can always shoot dead one or two before their charge, so i think that six is mandatory, as only 4 can reach CC.
I also noticed that two armigers are a good support for the Dragoons, as the opponent has to deal with them fast so more Dragoons are able to land in CC. In the end both armigers will be dead but they absorb a lot of fire and they cannot be ignored.
I take 4x Dragoons because moving them around is a real problem. (6x can get stuck quite easily, actually.) If you bring good anti-air, then maybe 6x Dragoons is okay.
Also, a lot of the thinking on this thread is really fixating on Dragoon damage output. Yes, the lance is powerful, and Dragoons are scary when they close in. But Dragoons are also actually extremely durable against a large array of threats in its "class," and thus, they present a high opportunity cost threat to the opponent. By opportunity cost, I mean that very few enemies are specializing against T6, -2 to hit vehicles. Thus, your opponent will almost always be forced to commit something that could be used against another valuable target to kill your Dragoons.
That's why I am busy building Drills and Fulgurites to play something like this:
Spoiler:
Blood Angels Supreme Command Detachment - 403
HQ - 403 1x Captain w/ Jump Pack [6] - Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, Warlord Trait: Artisan of War, Relic: Angel's Wing, Death Visions of Sanguinius
1x Captain w/ Jump Pack [6] - Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, Relic: Veritas Vitae, Death Visions of Sanguinius
1x Mephiston [8] - Powers: Quickening, Unleash Rage, Wings of Sanguinius
MT Battalion Detachment - 183
HQ - 60 1x Company Commander [2] - Laspistol, Chainsword, Relic: Kurov's Aquila
1x Company Commander [2] - Laspistol, Chainsword
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If Crawlers could fall back and still shoot, sure Beamers wouldn't be a bad idea. As is? No. They'll want to be close and then they'll get tied up in melee most likely.
Nah. Rule of three kills the Beamer Crawler spam option.
I am running a similar list but have found making the BA a battalion with scouts to be very useful for getting a nice safe space for the drills and for early move blocking knights. I also have dropped dragoons entirely as they die so dam fast vs knights. Trialing adding a flyer to blow up screens and odd small units. Sad but im getting less and less admec in my list these days
Dragoons need to be Stygies to function I feel. Otherwise you're better off with...something else.
Found this and almost cacked myself....looked at it real hard trying to tell if they were joking or what....turns out its a fake, but the question is..>could you tell once painted?
Octovol wrote: Found this and almost cacked myself....looked at it real hard trying to tell if they were joking or what....turns out its a fake, but the question is..>could you tell once painted?
I have 3 - got them 3D printed by a friend. Would've bought them from FW if they were priced sanely at $50 a model. The files are out there, and these guys in the marketing department are shooting themselves in the foot with high priced plastic.
It’s probably something primaries related but you never know. Anyone catch some of the nova streams last week? Anytime the chat mentioned Admech, Geoff incontrol ignored or skirted the questions completely...which I thought was a tad odd, he must of seen some of them as any stream I clicked on was filled with Admech comments.
Anyway last game he said there were things coming that he can’t talk about but he’s so excited to know are coming, that could be interpreted as any faction but....
I’m thinking that it’s possible there is a shiny Admech toy on the horizon
.....hopefully
I can't remember the name so I might be butchering it but there are scryrships mentioned in the lore that don't appear at all in models or stratagems, could be a small version of one.
I am running a similar list but have found making the BA a battalion with scouts to be very useful for getting a nice safe space for the drills and for early move blocking knights. I also have dropped dragoons entirely as they die so dam fast vs knights. Trialing adding a flyer to blow up screens and odd small units. Sad but im getting less and less admec in my list these days
Hm. That's a good point. I will see if I can fit 165 points of choppy Scouts in. But I might actually have to start worrying about having enough room for my units to stand. LOL.
Ideasweasel wrote: Are they the forgeworld drills Suzuteo? Are you finding them easy enough to put together?
Yeah. They are pretty straightforward to assemble because there's literally only one way everything fits together. The resin is very thick and heavy. They might be a tiny bit warped, especially the thin track panel that glues to the side of the tracks (each piece has a track and a track panel on either side). Definitely run down to the dollar store and buy a ton of zip ties or rubber bands when assembling this thing. I would also do subassemblies of the chassis, drill, and rocket boosters. And I would use something other than super glue due to the torque forces needed to ensure a snug fit; though I guess you could use a ton of super glue and hope the entire thing doesn't catastrophically fail before final assembly.
Octovol wrote: Found this and almost cacked myself....looked at it real hard trying to tell if they were joking or what....turns out its a fake, but the question is..>could you tell once painted?
I have 3 - got them 3D printed by a friend. Would've bought them from FW if they were priced sanely at $50 a model. The files are out there, and these guys in the marketing department are shooting themselves in the foot with high priced plastic.
There are a ton of suspiciously cheap Drills on eBay for sure. And the resin quality is oftentimes better than Finecrap.
As for solo or mono codex it can be competitive enough and it's a common restriction when we play in team tournmetns . We can't all have captians ba and guard knights sorry. So I always try mono codex and usually I d prefer my stygies outrider for friendly matches than test a sh knight detachment ofc.
As for Dragoons.
As I said I find their usage similar to the one knight list.
Knight and two helverins seems a lot alike with a group of Dragoons and balistarii.
For m point is a d result since I use both detachments similar I'd go for a
2*1 autocsnnon balistari
2*1 same
1*4-6 most likely 4.
Hm. That's a good point. I will see if I can fit 165 points of choppy Scouts in. But I might actually have to start worrying about having enough room for my units to stand. LOL.
With the performance of multi-detachment soup being so strong at NOVA (half the invitational was the same list of Guard/2xSlamguineous/RavenCastellan) everyone agrees that command point sharing is probably on the way out. So any concern with building that list when it's likely to get knee capped?
Ideasweasel wrote: Are they the forgeworld drills Suzuteo? Are you finding them easy enough to put together?
Yeah. They are pretty straightforward to assemble because there's literally only one way everything fits together. The resin is very thick and heavy. They might be a tiny bit warped, especially the thin track panel that glues to the side of the tracks (each piece has a track and a track panel on either side). Definitely run down to the dollar store and buy a ton of zip ties or rubber bands when assembling this thing. I would also do subassemblies of the chassis, drill, and rocket boosters. And I would use something other than super glue due to the torque forces needed to ensure a snug fit; though I guess you could use a ton of super glue and hope the entire thing doesn't catastrophically fail before final assembly.
It was a little time intensive, but the assembly was pretty straight forward. I use thin strips of green stuff to hold stuff in place to let the glue harden. No need for zip ties or rubber bands. Just put superglue, green stuff, superglue and that combo hardens really quickly while giving you a little time to maneuver things into place.
I am running a similar list but have found making the BA a battalion with scouts to be very useful for getting a nice safe space for the drills and for early move blocking knights. I also have dropped dragoons entirely as they die so dam fast vs knights. Trialing adding a flyer to blow up screens and odd small units. Sad but im getting less and less admec in my list these days
Hm. That's a good point. I will see if I can fit 165 points of choppy Scouts in. But I might actually have to start worrying about having enough room for my units to stand. LOL.
Ideasweasel wrote: Are they the forgeworld drills Suzuteo? Are you finding them easy enough to put together?
Yeah. They are pretty straightforward to assemble because there's literally only one way everything fits together. The resin is very thick and heavy. They might be a tiny bit warped, especially the thin track panel that glues to the side of the tracks (each piece has a track and a track panel on either side). Definitely run down to the dollar store and buy a ton of zip ties or rubber bands when assembling this thing. I would also do subassemblies of the chassis, drill, and rocket boosters. And I would use something other than super glue due to the torque forces needed to ensure a snug fit; though I guess you could use a ton of super glue and hope the entire thing doesn't catastrophically fail before final assembly.
Octovol wrote: Found this and almost cacked myself....looked at it real hard trying to tell if they were joking or what....turns out its a fake, but the question is..>could you tell once painted?
I have 3 - got them 3D printed by a friend. Would've bought them from FW if they were priced sanely at $50 a model. The files are out there, and these guys in the marketing department are shooting themselves in the foot with high priced plastic.
There are a ton of suspiciously cheap Drills on eBay for sure. And the resin quality is oftentimes better than Finecrap.
Cool, thanks for the advice. I’m tempted to buy one, and even more temped by those fake ones!
But I wonder if the fake ones come with assembly instructions though? Might be best to just bite the bullet and buy the forgeworld ones.
Hm. That's a good point. I will see if I can fit 165 points of choppy Scouts in. But I might actually have to start worrying about having enough room for my units to stand. LOL.
With the performance of multi-detachment soup being so strong at NOVA (half the invitational was the same list of Guard/2xSlamguineous/RavenCastellan) everyone agrees that command point sharing is probably on the way out. So any concern with building that list when it's likely to get knee capped?
That is also a good point. Big FAQ needs to hurry up.
I'd imagine that either CPs will no longer be shared between factions and/or the recycling relics will be limited by faction keyword. If so, I really hope they increase the CP awarded by the non-Battalion/Brigade detachments or reduce their requirements to 2-of instead of 3-of--or both.
bogalubov wrote: It was a little time intensive, but the assembly was pretty straight forward. I use thin strips of green stuff to hold stuff in place to let the glue harden. No need for zip ties or rubber bands. Just put superglue, green stuff, superglue and that combo hardens really quickly while giving you a little time to maneuver things into place.
Yeah, green stuff is a good option too, especially if the track panels don't line up well; leaves a gap, which means the glue isn't as effective.
So, last weekend I competed in the NOVA Open GT and brought my AdMech. Overall it was a great event, and I had a blast. It was also fun to have members of the GW design team watching your games! I'll share my list, how my matches went, and some general observations.
- I counted about 7 AdMech players in the GT (out of about 240). None of us made it into the top three brackets. Not many drills, and few dragoons. I saw one Cawlstar, and otherwise good representation from Stygies electro-priests.
- Knights were rampant. The vast majority of imperial lists of all stripes had at least one knight. Obviously the winning list had a Raven Castellan, and there were a lot of similarly configured lists that included a knight and the guard CP battery.
- I had tooled my list expecting more Drukhari and Aeldari in general. I went 4-4, ending up something like 76/240.
My list:
Spoiler:
++ Total: [113 PL, 2000pts] ++
11 [-2] CPs
++ Battalion Detachment - Adeptus Mechanicus [72 PL, 1220pts] ++
+ Forgeworld Dogma: Stygies VIII
+ Heavy Support [26 PL, 480pts] +
• Kastelan Robots [12 PL, 220pts]
Kastelan Robot [110pts]: Heavy Phosphor blaster [15pts], Twin Heavy phosphor blasters [30pts]
Kastelan Robot [110pts]: Heavy Phosphor blaster [15pts], Twin Heavy phosphor blasters [30pts]
• Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 130pts]: Icarus Array [40pts]
• Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 130pts]: Icarus Array [40pts]
++ Super-Heavy Detachment – Imperial Knights [41 PL, 780pts] ++
+Household: Questor Mechanicus, House Vulker
Exalted Court [-1 CP], Heirlooms of the Household [-1 CP]
+ Lord of War [41 PL, 780pts] +
• Armiger Helverin [9 PL, 174pts]: Heavy Stubber [4pts]
• Armiger Helverin [9 PL, 174pts]: Heavy Stubber [4pts]
• Knight Warden [23 PL, 432pts]:
Ironstorm Missile Pod [16pts], Heavy Stubber [4pts], Thunderstrike Gauntlet [35pts], Avenger Gatling Cannon [75pts], Heavy Flamer [17pts]
++ Total: [113 PL, 2000pts] ++
Matchups:
Round 1: My opponent had three FW knights (Atropos, Castigator, and Acheron), and the loyal 32. I wasn't really tooled to compete against that many knights, and it was pretty one sided in their favor. I think the final score was around 7-34.
Round 2: Knights with two warglaives, a castigator, and an errant. Accompanied by guard with some LRMBTs, infantry, and even a few scions. I got first turn, and my opponent had placed his tanks near the front line, making them easy targets for my fulgurites. He also kept his knights in his deployment zone for 3 turns, and I was able to out-shoot him pretty easily as a result. A lucky Helverin aced one of his LR tanks in one go. The priests absorbed a lot of attention and firepower. I was pretty unimpressed by the warglaives. I won 24-4.
Round 3: Full cadian brigade, with pask, another tank commander, sentinels, mortars, veterans infiltrating with the dagger of Tu'Sakh, and of course a Tallarn Shadowsword with psychic support. He seized on me, but since he had placed the Shadow Sword in reserve, he wasn't able to kill much with shooting through Shroudpsalm and Stygies -1 to hit. In my turn I was able to wipe the sentinels, and clear out the midfield objectives. I largely ignored the shadowsword once it came in since it had all the psychic buffs, and I was able to kill most of his infantry and prevent him from scoring points. Super close and fun game. I won with a score something like 30-12.
Round 4: Tau gunline. 1 Riptide, 1 Y'vahra, 1 Ghostkeel, Coldstar, stealthsuits, drones, and markerlights. Search and Destroy setup. He deployed almost everything in his far back corner. I got first turn, my fulgurites killed a ghostkeel, and the corpuscarii scorched troops and charged in. Again, the Stygies trait helped mitigate the damage he was able to do. My knight even refused to go down until turn four, and he wasn't able to survive my return fire, as most of my guns are well built to kill units with 'fly'. Won 35-9
Round 5: Orks. 200 boys, Ghaz, KFFs, Weirdboy, and other assorted characters. I went first and between priests and other shooting I killed about 40 boys. In his turn he attempted to surround my remaining fulgurites and use his charge move to daisy chain his troops to my gunline without actually killing my models so he could prevent me from falling back and targeting his boyz. However it didn't quite work out (he killed my priests), and he ended up conceding, I won 39-4.
Round 6: Aeldari/Harlequins/Drukhari. Shining spear bombwith rangers, three razorwings, and 3 units of skyweavers. I went first, downed 1 razorwing, knocked another to one wound, and killed 20 guardians. However, I underestimated the effectiveness of the shining spears, and my fulgurites failed to do any wounds after charging them. The Skyweavers came in from DS, and were able to easily kill a vehicle a turn and charge another to tie it up. They're frustrating to play against. I forget the exact score, but I lost pretty handily.
Round 7: Guard CP Battery with a Raven Castellan and 2 Crusaders. My luck continued to go down hill. Already a bad matchup, my knight failed a 6 inch charge (with reroll) to take out one of his Crusaders, and in the end I couldn't handle the pressure the knights put on my army. I did okay on points, but it was a clear loss.
Round 8: Chaos. 3 units of Berzerkers in Rhinos. Abbadon, Ahriman, DP with Dark Matter Crystal, 30 Tzaangors, and 40 Alpha Legion Cultists. He seized on me, and also won to deploy infiltrators first, placing all 40 cultists across my line, preventing me from placing my priests outside of my deployment zone. His first turn the cultists and Tzaangors charged my lines, and consolidated such that they were locked in, yet I was unable to fall back. On my first turn, I had no legal shooting targets for much of anything in my army, (the rhinos were out of LoS and the rest were characters) and, somewhat eager to get home after a long day, I conceded. Nice opponent, and very well practiced on the importance of the movement phase. He achieved what my Ork opponent was unable to do.
Overall, I brought a list I liked, but knew wasn't perfect. I misjudged the meta, which also cost me, in addition to my misplays. I think I almost favor the Helverins over the dunecrawlers now,they're so flexible and reliable. Priests are definitely great, and I found many opponents over-reacting to them, even in 10 man units. I wasn't sure about bringing two non-cawl robots, but they were great at clearing out infantry in cover and knocking them off of objectives while sitting pretty on my own objectives. The infantry did okay, but didn't really benefit from the special weapons. The Knight is a crutch, and I want to go back to the drawing board on it.
laam999 wrote: What do you mean by the knight being a crutch?
How did you you find people reacting to priest's Vs dragoons?
The list isn't far off what I'm thinking of, except I favour dragoons over priest's.
I almost feel like I'm required to take the knight, it brings a lot to the table, and presents a threat my opponent has to deal with. While AdMech do have good CC units, they tend to be fragile, and we don't have any truly durable CC threats, which is one big role the knight is required to fill.
I haven't run many dragoons in the past, so I don't have a great answer here. I will note that a few of my opponents hadn't actually played against AdMech before. Priests are decently durable against the most common anti-infantry firepower (lasguns & mortars), but Dragoons might draw the kind of anti-vehicle firepower that can knock them out easily (like dark reapers, Helverins, or Cawl's Wrath). That said, perhaps they would have done better for me.
Helverin
Helverin
Paladin +stormspear will be a default detachment for me.
Incredible movement firepower options and ofc knight 4+5+ WT relic config for durability. This combo shoots enough and would probably stay till the end in many games.
My issue the other detachments .
So far I tried graia battalion stock
And a Cawl star 4 Robots 2 onagers neutrons being more effective.
Problems. Deep strike and mobility especially in h obj missions . And less but an issue with CP. 12 are good but always seem to be able to waste twice more.
So options.
Considering to switch to a versatile less expensive stygies something with balistarii and Dragoons .
Or remain on Mars maybe take 3 robots and infiltrators .(used them with wrath of Mars in my Mars and seem to work fine))
laam999 wrote: What do you mean by the knight being a crutch?
How did you you find people reacting to priest's Vs dragoons?
The list isn't far off what I'm thinking of, except I favour dragoons over priest's.
I almost feel like I'm required to take the knight, it brings a lot to the table, and presents a threat my opponent has to deal with. While AdMech do have good CC units, they tend to be fragile, and we don't have any truly durable CC threats, which is one big role the knight is required to fill.
I haven't run many dragoons in the past, so I don't have a great answer here. I will note that a few of my opponents hadn't actually played against AdMech before. Priests are decently durable against the most common anti-infantry firepower (lasguns & mortars), but Dragoons might draw the kind of anti-vehicle firepower that can knock them out easily (like dark reapers, Helverins, or Cawl's Wrath). That said, perhaps they would have done better for me.
The Knight is more of a risk dilemma. There are two horns:
1) Don't bring a Knight, and you have to deal with Knights without Knights. The best way to deal with Knights is with Knights though.
2) Bring a Knight, and you get out-Knighted by a list with more or stronger Knights.
The result being that a lot of Imperium players right now feel forced to bring a Castellan.
Most people know that the Robots are scary. However, they are more unfamiliar with Dragoons and Electro-Priests. They especially do not realize that fighting on objectives is a bad idea; buffed Fulgurites with Acquisiton at All Costs are essentially unkillable.
For myself right now I’m on 40k-listmaking-hiatus until the 2018 FAQ and Chapter Approved come out, because they are going to almost certainly rip the rug out from under my lists’ feet.
Yeah. At this point, the game is about who can more efficiently convert CPs into wounds on target (or protect their units from wounds). Lowering the damage output of the game in general would be nice. People definitely shouldn't be bringing Guard Brigades to fuel Knights or Blood Angels.
On the plus side if they nerf guard into the ground maybe Admech will get a strong showing....in the form of people taking min 199 point Admech battalions.
It’s a poor mans battery though, if guard is to Duracell then I guess Admech battery is those cheap own brand ones that leak after overuse
GW is in a real pickle. There are multiple elements that need to be touched on, and it's hard to do it in an FAQ:
1) CP recyclers
2) Command benefits
3) Allies
Proposed changes that I've heard:
1) Fixed CP for all armies based on detachments
2) Fixed CP followed by per turn charging for all armies based on detachments (bright side: we can finally penalize first-mover by saying you don't charge CP on the first turn)
3) Flatter command benefits and lower requirements for all detachments
4) Only detachments that share a faction keyword with the Warlord have a CP pool
5) Each faction keyword has its own separate CP pool
6) Each detachment has its own separate CP pool
We benefit immensely from any change in this structure because we are still a very CP efficient army. Warlord has 6+/6+ and most of our stratagems cost 1 CP.
Suzuteo wrote: GW is in a real pickle. There are multiple elements that need to be touched on, and it's hard to do it in an FAQ:
1) CP recyclers
2) Command benefits
3) Allies
Proposed changes that I've heard:
1) Fixed CP for all armies based on detachments
2) Fixed CP followed by per turn charging for all armies based on detachments (bright side: we can finally penalize first-mover by saying you don't charge CP on the first turn)
3) Flatter command benefits and lower requirements for all detachments
4) Only detachments that share a faction keyword with the Warlord have a CP pool
5) Each faction keyword has its own separate CP pool
6) Each detachment has its own separate CP pool
We benefit immensely from any change in this structure because we are still a very CP efficient army. Warlord has 6+/6+ and most of our stratagems cost 1 CP.
7) You can add changeing batallions to have one of each mandatory
8) Undoing rule of 3
Not sure if making Battalions harder to access is ideal. Having them yield less CP seems fairer to everyone.
They won't undo the rule of 3. It's been really good for the health of the metagame. Though I still think we should all be clamoring for them to allow for squadrons of 2x Dunecrawler, given the crabs were meant to attack in pairs.
I'm unsure why people are expecting nerfs. AdMech are one of the worst armies in the game result wise. 0 20+people (that's RTTs even!) tournament wins in the entire summer.
Also, rule of 3 is the best thing that's ever happened in 8th ed lol
24 Fulgurites for my barrel of monkeys strategy. The scale is actually sort of funny. They are hunched over, but if they were standing up straight, they would almost be as tall as my truescale Space Marines. So these guys are like basketball players. Which is wholly justifiable, since GW insists that Fulgurites go onto 32mm bases.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rvd1ofakind wrote: I'm unsure why people are expecting nerfs. AdMech are one of the worst armies in the game result wise. 0 20+people (that's RTTs even!) tournament wins in the entire summer.
Also, rule of 3 is the best thing that's ever happened in 8th ed lol
Agreed and agreed. People are crying about the Drills being good; some exaggerate and say they are OP, but they fail to recognize that AdMech has always had very strong vehicles in general.
I wouldnt expect direct nerfs, but theres every chance they could be heavy handed when fixing some of the larger problems and adversely affect the mid to lower end of the meta sprectrum again.
Has anyone compared hoplites to fulgurites yet? Atm im looking at adding a couple of helverins, 10 hoplites or 10 fulgurites to my list. But points wise fulgurites are on the expensive side compared to hoplites and helverins will just be replacing any balistarii or dunecrawlers i have in low points lists.
Octovol wrote: Has anyone compared hoplites to fulgurites yet? Atm im looking at adding a couple of helverins, 10 hoplites or 10 fulgurites to my list. But points wise fulgurites are on the expensive side compared to hoplites and helverins will just be replacing any balistarii or dunecrawlers i have in low points lists.
Hoplites can't generate mortal wounds (other than being hit and rolling 6s) so I haven't found them to be very good. The fulgurites also can go up to 3++ when they kill something and then still have the additional 5+ to ignore the wound.
Agreed and agreed. People are crying about the Drills being good; some exaggerate and say they are OP, but they fail to recognize that AdMech has always had very strong vehicles in general.
I agree, the drills aren't even close to OP. I could see a minimal points hike, they are decently efficient. If they were WS 3+ they would be really solid. As they are right now, they are too swingy, just don't have the volume of dice to make them reliable.
If soup lists are penalized and the guard CP farm is nerfed, I think admech come up quite a bit.
However one of the things I'm realizing in 8th is all lists need a free safety of some sort. What I mean by this is a highly mobile model that can do serious damage in CC. Things like the smash captain, shield captain on dawneagle, yncarne, bike autarch, daemon prince, talos, etc. All of these units are resilient as well.
I think the biggest problem is we don't really have a unit that can do something similar. Is everyone overcoming this deficiency by using allies? Or has someone found a unit that fills this role?
Octovol wrote: Has anyone compared hoplites to fulgurites yet? Atm im looking at adding a couple of helverins, 10 hoplites or 10 fulgurites to my list. But points wise fulgurites are on the expensive side compared to hoplites and helverins will just be replacing any balistarii or dunecrawlers i have in low points lists.
Hoplites can't generate mortal wounds (other than being hit and rolling 6s) so I haven't found them to be very good. The fulgurites also can go up to 3++ when they kill something and then still have the additional 5+ to ignore the wound.
Yes but you’d expect that if you take even numbers of them. Points wise you get almost twice as many hoplites as fulgurites. Realistically you have a choice between 5 fulgurites (80pts) and 10 hoplites (90pts). Or 10 fulgurites (160pts) and 20 hoplites (180pts) Fulgurites are almost double the cost, but are they doubly killy and tanky?
One of the missions i’ll be up against shortly is a 25PL infantry only skirmish. These two seemed like likely candidates, but you get a whole lot more bodies in hoplites than fulgurites. They both have a 5++ to begin with, though hoplites are 4++ in combat, the fulgurite 5+++ might overcome its lack of bodies but i doubt it. Even once a fulgurite unit gets its 3++ hoplites are still 4++ in combat anyway, though fulgurites are also -1 to hit until theyre in charge range which is a big bonus if you’re considering their survivability in the open.
Hoplites also get to overwatch and are better at wounding than fulgurites. I feel like theres more depth to this comparison than one does more MW than the other.
@Octovol
I would like to point out the annoying fact that Fulgurites are on 32mm bases, which makes a huge difference in CC. Hoplites are on 25mm bases, so they aren't great for counts-as models.
@Slayer-Fan123, linds14sr20det
People on Reddit were whining about it because the Drill+Fulgurite combo actually does really well against Knights. I think Drills are fine exactly where they are in terms of points.
@linds14sr20det
I use Smash Captain and Mephiston. Dragoons are the closest thing in AdMech to what you say, but they are really big and don't fly.
Hey guys, just a quick question for anyone who can help (which means anyone who owns both admech and space marines haha).
Looking to do a converted unit using (hopefully) infiltrators/ruststalkers. But I’m not sure if the infiltrator model size is quite right, as I don’t yet own any and while they look pretty spindly they are on 40mm bases.
Could someone take a photo for me, of an infiltrator/ruststalker in between a standard 32mm base space marine and a 40mm base terminator?
Also would be curious how the rusty would look on a 32mm base, I think they would look ok but their stance is very wide and seems to fill the 40mm.
Octovol wrote: Has anyone compared hoplites to fulgurites yet? Atm im looking at adding a couple of helverins, 10 hoplites or 10 fulgurites to my list. But points wise fulgurites are on the expensive side compared to hoplites and helverins will just be replacing any balistarii or dunecrawlers i have in low points lists.
Hoplites can't generate mortal wounds (other than being hit and rolling 6s) so I haven't found them to be very good. The fulgurites also can go up to 3++ when they kill something and then still have the additional 5+ to ignore the wound.
Yes but you’d expect that if you take even numbers of them. Points wise you get almost twice as many hoplites as fulgurites. Realistically you have a choice between 5 fulgurites (80pts) and 10 hoplites (90pts). Or 10 fulgurites (160pts) and 20 hoplites (180pts) Fulgurites are almost double the cost, but are they doubly killy and tanky?
One of the missions i’ll be up against shortly is a 25PL infantry only skirmish. These two seemed like likely candidates, but you get a whole lot more bodies in hoplites than fulgurites. They both have a 5++ to begin with, though hoplites are 4++ in combat, the fulgurite 5+++ might overcome its lack of bodies but i doubt it. Even once a fulgurite unit gets its 3++ hoplites are still 4++ in combat anyway, though fulgurites are also -1 to hit until theyre in charge range which is a big bonus if you’re considering their survivability in the open.
Hoplites also get to overwatch and are better at wounding than fulgurites. I feel like theres more depth to this comparison than one does more MW than the other.
Hoplite no forgeworld no stygies strategem so either footslogging in which cae that 4+ mortal W thing doesnt work or drill tax.
As to tanky well.a hoplite take sv 50% melee or 50-33% in shooting
Fullgrite save 55% if not killed a unit and 77% if it has
Octovol wrote: Has anyone compared hoplites to fulgurites yet? Atm im looking at adding a couple of helverins, 10 hoplites or 10 fulgurites to my list. But points wise fulgurites are on the expensive side compared to hoplites and helverins will just be replacing any balistarii or dunecrawlers i have in low points lists.
Hoplites can't generate mortal wounds (other than being hit and rolling 6s) so I haven't found them to be very good. The fulgurites also can go up to 3++ when they kill something and then still have the additional 5+ to ignore the wound.
Yes but you’d expect that if you take even numbers of them. Points wise you get almost twice as many hoplites as fulgurites. Realistically you have a choice between 5 fulgurites (80pts) and 10 hoplites (90pts). Or 10 fulgurites (160pts) and 20 hoplites (180pts) Fulgurites are almost double the cost, but are they doubly killy and tanky?
One of the missions i’ll be up against shortly is a 25PL infantry only skirmish. These two seemed like likely candidates, but you get a whole lot more bodies in hoplites than fulgurites. They both have a 5++ to begin with, though hoplites are 4++ in combat, the fulgurite 5+++ might overcome its lack of bodies but i doubt it. Even once a fulgurite unit gets its 3++ hoplites are still 4++ in combat anyway, though fulgurites are also -1 to hit until theyre in charge range which is a big bonus if you’re considering their survivability in the open.
Hoplites also get to overwatch and are better at wounding than fulgurites. I feel like theres more depth to this comparison than one does more MW than the other.
Hoplite no forgeworld no stygies strategem so either footslogging in which cae that 4+ mortal W thing doesnt work or drill tax.
As to tanky well.a hoplite take sv 50% melee or 50-33% in shooting
Fullgrite save 55% if not killed a unit and 77% if it has
This was the bit I was missing in my deliberation, thank you. Although I do see hoplites more as a cheap infantry melee unit thats kinda meant to foot slog, having one without the other, is going to draw attention to them. Priests it is for now!
Until I can afford several units of hoplites and/or drills not being able to infiltrate or deep strike them means the comparison over their effectiveness is irrelevant if they cant actually get to a target.
incidentally I briefly mathhammered the comparison. Against T5 and T6 Hoplites win out easily. Against anything else, even vehicles, fulgurites win out on the comparison. Even with more than half as many attacks.
Niiru wrote: Hey guys, just a quick question for anyone who can help (which means anyone who owns both admech and space marines haha).
Looking to do a converted unit using (hopefully) infiltrators/ruststalkers. But I’m not sure if the infiltrator model size is quite right, as I don’t yet own any and while they look pretty spindly they are on 40mm bases.
Could someone take a photo for me, of an infiltrator/ruststalker in between a standard 32mm base space marine and a 40mm base terminator?
Also would be curious how the rusty would look on a 32mm base, I think they would look ok but their stance is very wide and seems to fill the 40mm.
Thanks to anyone who can help me out
their wide stance fills the 40mm base. They're about the same height as the old space marines, so shorter than the new primaris marines.
I have 30 hoplites in my paint queue right now. I like them but The issue they have is a lack of stygies it is rediculous they the dont have a forgeworld.
Niiru wrote: Hey guys, just a quick question for anyone who can help (which means anyone who owns both admech and space marines haha).
Looking to do a converted unit using (hopefully) infiltrators/ruststalkers. But I’m not sure if the infiltrator model size is quite right, as I don’t yet own any and while they look pretty spindly they are on 40mm bases.
Could someone take a photo for me, of an infiltrator/ruststalker in between a standard 32mm base space marine and a 40mm base terminator?
Also would be curious how the rusty would look on a 32mm base, I think they would look ok but their stance is very wide and seems to fill the 40mm.
Thanks to anyone who can help me out
their wide stance fills the 40mm base. They're about the same height as the old space marines, so shorter than the new primaris marines.
Those old space marines were originally on 25mm bases weren't they? Those ruststalkers much have a really gaping stance lol. Wonder if they can be easily re-posed into a more sensible 32mm base kind of size...
Octovol wrote: Has anyone compared hoplites to fulgurites yet? Atm im looking at adding a couple of helverins, 10 hoplites or 10 fulgurites to my list. But points wise fulgurites are on the expensive side compared to hoplites and helverins will just be replacing any balistarii or dunecrawlers i have in low points lists.
Hoplites are hilarious against armies like Khorne that get 4 attacks per model. When you charge a Berserker with 10 guys and he laughs at you...and then he lands 40 attacks...and takes 10 mortal wounds...lol! In that regard, they are excellent against Strength 3 or 4 units that just spit attacks at you in close combat. Anything that isn't completely dedicated as a close combat unit is going to have trouble against 4+ saves in melee, and most things will be hurt by your Strength 6 attack backs. Just don't run 20 of the guys unless you plan on dropping them in with a Drill, or put them on the frontline against a melee heavy army. They WILL get shot off the board, just like the rest of our Toughness 3 bodies.
Hoplites tend not to get charged. Their save is better in melee and reflects mortal wounds, and their overwatch isn’t terrible. Much easier to shoot them with any standard anti-infantry or anti-horde guns since they only have toughness 3 and a 5+ invuln.
In fact, so far I’ve never managed to get them into melee - they and the drill get blown apart unless they make their 9” charge. Not gone first yet so Stygies wouldn’t have helped.
I like them but they might be best used as pricey but resilient bubblewrap around your big guns when faced with melee hordes. Subterranean Assault has yet to open up much except distracting enemy fire for me.
U02dah4 wrote: I have 30 hoplites in my paint queue right now. I like them but The issue they have is a lack of stygies it is rediculous they the dont have a forgeworld.
Sadly, it's a fluff related thing.
The Hoplites and Peltasts are supposed to be the "Titan Guard".
Would have been cool to see them get Knight Household rules though.
Yes but totan guard still come from a forgeworld true you could make a case for a household but forgeworld makes more sense and Stygies would make them and peltast playable
U02dah4 wrote: I have 30 hoplites in my paint queue right now. I like them but The issue they have is a lack of stygies it is rediculous they the dont have a forgeworld.
Sadly, it's a fluff related thing.
The Hoplites and Peltasts are supposed to be the "Titan Guard".
Would have been cool to see them get Knight Household rules though.
Well, originally weren't Skitarii all explicitly the Titan Guard Mechanicus? Then they got broadened to be the general military forces?
And either way, they are coming from a forge world....... makes no sense to me for them to have nothing special.
I know im late to the party on this one, but one note - the gallant has 5 attacks not 4? This is one of the reasons I love them. With a stormspear and melta combined with the speed of movement they have if you can deliver it into the enemy lines there is just about nothing that they cannot trash in cc (except the extreme outliers).
Gallants just suffer from T1 sometimes doing little where as a warden or errant would be contributing
Getting into difficulties late game if the enemy splits there army and the gallant clears its section of the split resulting in doing nothing all the other knights can impact across the board
And vulnerability to overwatch. A few of the big targets you wish to lockdown can get lucky sometimes and do a lot of damage to it. (Can be mitigated with an inquisitor
bigstoney wrote: I know im late to the party on this one, but one note - the gallant has 5 attacks not 4? This is one of the reasons I love them. With a stormspear and melta combined with the speed of movement they have if you can deliver it into the enemy lines there is just about nothing that they cannot trash in cc (except the extreme outliers).
Taking a unit inside an army same role as the one you got seems pointless to me.
I agree a lone Crusader is more efficient than a gallant but ad mech is missing gallant role. Not crusader Castelan kinghts.
That said I remain a strong believer of . Play and army with a role.
So 3 gallanfz and ad mech seems a good point for me . If you want a warden and two gallants or any combination of the three sure it's dependant from the rest of the list playstyle and currently meta.
"Use this Stratagem when you set up a Stygies VIII unit from your army during deployment. At the start of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, you can move that unit up to 9". It cannot end this move within 9" of any enemy models. If both players have units that can move before the first turn begins, the player who is taking the first turn moves their units first."
I am pretty pissed. This was an entirely unnecessary nerf. I mean, a 9" move without advancing is pretty lame.
Suzuteo wrote: "Use this Stratagem when you set up a Stygies VIII unit from your army during deployment. At the start of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, you can move that unit up to 9". It cannot end this move within 9" of any enemy models. If both players have units that can move before the first turn begins, the player who is taking the first turn moves their units first."
I am pretty pissed. This was an entirely unnecessary nerf. I mean, a 9" move without advancing is pretty lame.
I agree with you. If we end up going first, it's not a huge change - further away yes, but we will be able to move and assault before getting shot, though they will see where we deploy and can set themselves farther back. The biggest issue I have is that we no longer get to see who has first turn before deploying our units...which gives us a 50% chance that they'll get gunned/assaulted before we get to use them, even after using the stratagem to deploy them closer.
Ideasweasel wrote: Anyone who owns more than 10 priests is feeing sad.
Oh well some pretty cool office desk paperweights
So what to play as mono mechanicum?
Dakabots + Onegars + Rangers?
I’m back on the Mars train. Dragoons and priests look so cool but are in a bit of trouble now
Dragoons will still get 19" movement on the first turn, which if you deploy them at the limit of the deployment zone, should still make it more than possible to charge stuff on the first turn, you were very likely to be forced to assault the chaff screen before the FAQ anyway. It does however change their role less from a max-sized unit for insta-charges and puts more weight on their ability to be a big distraction on which the other player will have to waste a ton of firepower on if he wants to shoot them off the table thanks to the -2 to hit outside of 12" (much more likely too now that you don't start 9" away from the enemy if you go second) and shroudpsalm, aka a distraction Carnifex.
They still have a 19+2d6" threat range from the edge of your deployment zone, are still as deadly as before (aka one of the deadliest close combat units of all the IMPERIUM factions) and even if you just manage to get them close to the enemy you can do considerable damage thanks to the 1CP auto-explode strategy.
Still a good unit, but one which will include 2-3 Chickens now rather than the "all in" 5 or 6.
Electropriests (especially Fulgurites) however are really screwed now unless you can put them in a Termite. And paying the CP for Clandestine Infiltration for units that aren't Dragoons seems like a waste, pretty much every unit we have is just too slow to get anything out of the pricey bonus movement, Infiltrators can already deep strike and Ruststalkers... are even worse off now . A really unnecessary nerf IMO, especially considering how strong Wrath of Mars is. Well, at least the teleportation Forgeworld strat isn't a completely inferior alternative to the Stygies one anymore.
Let's hope for some more point decreases in CA2018.
Whilst i agree with the above there is still options. Using the infiltrate as a distraction carnifax for example. Deploy them early so opponent deploys with los to the (priests or dragoons). Then place your gunline either somewhere else or to directly counter/outrange them. If go 2nd just move them the 9"into cover/ out of los. An example but hope you get the point. It can force an opponents deoloyment much how snipers force characters to hide.
Envii wrote: Whilst i agree with the above there is still options. Using the infiltrate as a distraction carnifax for example. Deploy them early so opponent deploys with los to the (priests or dragoons). Then place your gunline either somewhere else or to directly counter/outrange them. If go 2nd just move them the 9"into cover/ out of los. An example but hope you get the point. It can force an opponents deoloyment much how snipers force characters to hide.
Any decent player will go after you main damage dealers, which will be the Cawlstar as we don't have any other viable option post-FAQ, ignoring or throwing their own distractions to hold yours (by the way - Fulgurites as distraction? not a good idea to use a paper unit for a distraction). I will give 2x4 infiltrated Dragoons a try, but I'm afraid this unit has been mostly pushed to be a counter charge/forward screen and nothing more. Fulgurites has been killed entirely. Rest of the codex, apart from the Cawlstar of course, is a trash anyway. I guess GW really don't care about the Admech.
Definitely glad I waited to get a ton of dragoons. Some nerfs for me anyway. Can't wait for Castellan to get kicked in the nuts unnecessarily in Chapter Approved.
The Cawlstar is back on the table now. The nerfs to FLY models being able to hop over screens during charges is a big deal. It means that if you have a large screen, you can actually stop stuff now. The meta is now going to be dominated by AELDARI and TAU. CHAOS soup assault spam lists are much worse now that cultists can't be 9" away guaranteed and bloodletter bombs cannot hit until turn 2 from deep strike. IMPERIUM soup armies are just flatly worse in all respects. A CAWL soup never really needed that many CP for the admech portion, so I think they can work again. I will be back once I think it through.
Heavy Support - 840 4x Kastelan Robot - 12x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
Total: 1998 points 18 CP (-3)
This is really sad.
Yeah it is really sad that this is the only thing you can come up with.
Sure stygies took a hit, but a necessary one. Use this FAQ to create an army that moves away from the crutch that soup provides and get a little bit more inventive.
Because Chapter Approved will surely continue this line of thinking of GW, with them trying to chip away at soup one FAQ at the time.
Arlen wrote: Yeah it is really sad that this is the only thing you can come up with.
Sure stygies took a hit, but a necessary one. Use this FAQ to create an army that moves away from the crutch that soup provides and get a little bit more inventive.
Because Chapter Approved will surely continue this line of thinking of GW, with them trying to chip away at soup one FAQ at the time.
You're joking. If anything, this FAQ makes us more reliant on Soup than ever. Guard is needed for bodies and the CP recycling, even if you only recycle 1 CP per turn. Blood Angels give us Scouts and Mephiston for some Deny.
Enemies can't charge through screens any more, and there's no alpha strike whatsoever, so that means Cawlstar is back. Maybe bring along Crawlers to handle Eldar and Tau, who also benefit a lot from these changes.
