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Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/01 22:51:00


Post by: azgrim


I am having trouble killing Th/SS terminators and paladins.Ive tried shootas in a wagon which are mildly effective against Terminators but paladins are almost immune thanks to FNP.I have tried tossing Ghaz into a paladin squad but ward staves and falchions negate most of the incoming damage.I charged a squad of paladin with 20 boys and they all died before i was able to swing .I am at a loss on how to effectively kill these guys .


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/01 22:57:56


Post by: Horst


after a bit of thought... killa kans. Maybe kans + boyz if he has a lot of thunderhammers (charge with boyz first, ensure boyz are in base to base with hammers, charge rest of squad with kans afterwards, careful not to get into base to base with hammers.

Sure, you'll lose a good few boyz, but I gotta think the kans instant-killing will do plenty of damage.... he can only take 1 ward stave, and if he's using falchions as you say, 5+ invulnerables against instant death won't help TOO much.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/01 23:06:35


Post by: Nungunz


Unfortunately Orks really don't have a good count against Paladins. S8+ weapons would be your best bet.......so that leaves power klaws (not the best idea), deff rollas (moving at max speed and forcing them to hit on 6s helps), rokkits, the looted wagon gun, or the big gun on the wagon (I think it's strength 8).

Other than that running away and trying to whittle them down with shooting or sending huge mobs at them probably works the best.


Kinda sucks.


Edit: Agreed with the above. Mass Killa-Kans can help, but be careful of Psycannons....a KFF is needed to make this work.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/01 23:26:42


Post by: Flavius Infernus


Deffrollas? They get their armor saves, but each one they fail is a dead paladin.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/01 23:31:44


Post by: JohnnoM


shokk attack gun lol.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/01 23:33:21


Post by: azgrim


I normally run battlewagons making kans almost impossible to take and the killkannon on a battlewagon is only S7 ap3 which is ok but that lack on s8 makes it pretty useless against paladins,,ok against MEQ and TEQ but you lose 8 trasnsport slots .


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 00:31:09


Post by: Nungunz


Flavius Infernus wrote:Deffrollas? They get their armor saves, but each one they fail is a dead paladin.


Yeah, but at least a failed save kills one of them. Power Klaws will usually get dumped on a 4+ Invuln (sword) or 2+ Invuln (stave).

Orks hurt going up against Palladins.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 00:41:54


Post by: Flavius Infernus


Well, I know for my Eldar and Mech Guard armies, the best solution to paladins is to just tank-shock them over and over again until they run off the table.

So if you're tooling a list, a huge number of trukks with reinforced ram?


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 00:56:37


Post by: NickTheButcher


azgrim wrote:I am having trouble killing Th/SS terminators and paladins.Ive tried shootas in a wagon which are mildly effective against Terminators but paladins are almost immune thanks to FNP.I have tried tossing Ghaz into a paladin squad but ward staves and falchions negate most of the incoming damage.I charged a squad of paladin with 20 boys and they all died before i was able to swing .I am at a loss on how to effectively kill these guys .


I do pretty well when I shoot them.

Lootas do some good. Burnas in a wagon will help to.

They (Paladins), don't have much for ranged combat. Most of the units in the whole codex have a max range of 24". Outrange them with Big Shootas and Lootas (you could even try Flashgits, even though they aren't the greatest) and you have a chance. Just gotta pile on the wounds

Once you get their squads down a couple of models, they really start to lose effectiveness. That's when the Boyz go to work.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 01:16:42


Post by: Jidmah


The killkannon is terrible, even more so against paladins.
You are far better off simply getting more lootaz for those points.

To beat paladins, you have to rethink your entire strategy. Paladins aren't exactly great at shooting (not better than other terminators, anyways), so just move away from them and keep getting shot rather than assaulted. Tank shocking is also a great idea, as they are not fearless, and as Flavius said, a single missed save will make one paladin explode.

Usually when I face a Draigowing army, I disembark my boyz and nobz into terrain somewhere near the center and have the empty battlewagons go for the paladins while everything opens fire on them. You can even use suicide koptaz to assault them from behind, and force them to pile in away from you, but you should only do that if there is no more backfield shooting to take care of (ie. Psyflemen).

JohnnoM wrote:shokk attack gun lol.

Actually, the SAG is great against grey knights. You'd have to miss out on Thrakka or warboss to field it, though.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 02:01:04


Post by: Shas'o Kias


Dreds and Kans or lootas and big shootas.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 02:21:51


Post by: Nungunz


Shas'o Kias wrote:Dreds and Kans or lootas and big shootas.


If the Palladins take an Apothecary then Lootas and Big Shootas really don't do much. Rokkits would be the better route to go in this case just for the chance to ID a pally and ignore FnP.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 02:42:27


Post by: azgrim


That apothecary is incredibly annoying ,i had dragio roll three ones only to make all three FNP saves.With the apoc you need to inflict 12 wounds before one will stick


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 02:48:24


Post by: DevianID


Because the pallys are so expensive, applying a single unit to deal with a full pally squad is not really fair. The best bet is to tie up the majority of the gk with something like a truck squad of 12, while meganobz or kans pile into 1 or 2 pallys. This keeps your killers safe so they can apply instant death, while your sacrifice squad dies to a man. Ghaz really helps with both great attacks, a 2++ save, and fearless if you lose combat.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 02:52:30


Post by: starbomber109


I need to test out KMB kanz against them sometime. They would seem to do ok in theory, but the return fire from the psycannon would be unkind to the kan wall, not to mention they Psifleman dread in the background shootin' the kanz with S8 bullets.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 04:19:35


Post by: NickTheButcher


Nungunz wrote:
Shas'o Kias wrote:Dreds and Kans or lootas and big shootas.


If the Palladins take an Apothecary then Lootas and Big Shootas really don't do much. Rokkits would be the better route to go in this case just for the chance to ID a pally and ignore FnP.


Very true. FnP does suck. My problem with rokkits is that there isn't enough and they are only 24" range, which means you have to be closer to the GK's.....which is what you don't want.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 04:44:27


Post by: azgrim


DevianID wrote:Because the pallys are so expensive, applying a single unit to deal with a full pally squad is not really fair. The best bet is to tie up the majority of the gk with something like a truck squad of 12, while meganobz or kans pile into 1 or 2 pallys.


This is a horrible idea both the 12 boys and the meganobs will be dead before they get a chance to hit.The pallies only need to do 10 wounds on a max sized MAN squad to wipe it out completely since each wound will kill one MAN and they dont have an inv and most of the time MANZ are run in squads of 5 or less which is even worse .12 boys might have slightly better odds against a PA GK but they are better off shooting them than assaulting.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 04:49:55


Post by: Horst


azgrim wrote:
DevianID wrote:Because the pallys are so expensive, applying a single unit to deal with a full pally squad is not really fair. The best bet is to tie up the majority of the gk with something like a truck squad of 12, while meganobz or kans pile into 1 or 2 pallys.


This is a horrible idea both the 12 boys and the meganobs will be dead before they get a chance to hit.The pallies only need to do 10 wounds on a max sized MAN squad to wipe it out completely since each wound will kill one MAN and they dont have an inv and most of the time MANZ are run in squads of 5 or less which is even worse .12 boys might have slightly better odds against a PA GK but they are better off shooting them than assaulting.


You don't understand.

The 12 boyz charge first, get into base to base with all the Paladins.

Then, the MANZ charge in, but your careful to only put them in base to base with 1-2 paladins, preferrably ones with power swords or ward staves. The paladins cannot consolidate into them because they are already in base to base with the boyz. The paladins have to waste attacks on the boyz. You lose 1-2 MANZ to their force weapons on the few GK that can actually hit you. Then you rock out with 30 power fist attacks, and decimate the paladins.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 05:26:41


Post by: Ghenghis Jon


I totally tailor a list to this: 2 Bike Bosses, 20 Nob Bikers, 15 TL Rokkit Deffkoptas, and 45 Lootas. I stay away from the Paladins and take out everything else, then shield my Deffkoptas (4+ cover save) with the Nob Bikers. I do not charge and shoot the crap out of the Terminators. I meta game like a jerk by using my Bikers 24" movement premeasure to ensure my Bikes stay 15" away so the GKs can't assault me and my Dakkagunz can shoot them. You can sacrifice some Trukk Boyz (cheap, no Nob) to assault from the far side so they have to consolidate the other way and tie them up. None of this really works well, but it is the best I have done.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 05:28:44


Post by: AresX8


I'm curious as to how a unit of Paladins killed a mob of 20 Boyz. How big was the unit?


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 06:56:05


Post by: DevianID


10 Pally + Draigo with 2 hammerhands throw out ~25 attacks that hit on 3's and wound on 2's. You expect to kill about 14 or more 66% of the time, so 20 wounds is within 1 standard deviation is my estimate. You do even better on the charge or with counterattack via Draigo's stratedgy.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 14:27:24


Post by: BeRzErKeR


DevianID wrote:10 Pally + Draigo with 2 hammerhands throw out ~25 attacks that hit on 3's and wound on 2's. You expect to kill about 14 or more 66% of the time, so 20 wounds is within 1 standard deviation is my estimate. You do even better on the charge or with counterattack via Draigo's stratedgy.


Yes, Paladins eat Boyz for breakfast. They don't need 10 models to kill Boyz; 5 Pallies with a Brotherhood Banner and Draigo get a total of 20 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+. They'll kill 11 Boyz in a single round, whereas the Boyz will be lucky to kill a single Paladin; 8 Boyz have 27 attacks, 14 hits, 7 wounds, perhaps 1 unsaved if the Paladins roll very badly, and the Nob has 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds, likely one saved by Invul and one taken on Draigo. Boyz lose combat by 9 or 10, all die to Fearless wounds.

Nobz mobs actually do pretty well. 5 Paladins with a BB and Apothecary runs to between 400-450 points, so if you want to match points you can hit them with 10 diversified Nobz easily. Paladins have to use their Force Weapons if they want to ID Nobz, so they can't use Hammerhand; 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, 2.5 after 5++ saves, so they'll kill 2-3 Nobz. Then your Nobz get their attacks; sadly, only the PKs are really of much use. Assuming you started with a 3/3/3 choppa/BC/PK mix and killed off your 3 choppas, then you get 12 BC attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds, plus 4 Painboy attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound; Total of 6 wounds spread across the squad, against 2+ armor and FNP. Not good odds. Your PKs get 12 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds, but these cause ID and are going against Invul saves; the Paladin with a Warding Stave has a 2+, the ones with NFS and the Apothecary have 4+, and the one with the BB has a 5+. All of them take one wound, and one takes two; you'll kill 2-3, probably including the BB carrier.

Which means that the 3 survivors only get 6 attacks next round, since they lose the extra attack from the BB. They'll only kill 1 more Nob, the PKs kill them off. Possibly the Warding Stave Paladin will survive another round, but with no FNP he'll be killed with weight of attacks in the third round without doing any further damage.

Result; 4 dead Nobz, 5 dead Paladins.

Now, if you're talking about Draigo and a 10-man paladin deathstar, then what you have is a 1000+ point unit that you can and should ignore. In a 2000 point game, that's half his army; blow up their transport if they have one, and them let 'em shoot at you with psycannons all game. Yes, they'll do damage; no, they won't do 1000 points-worth of damage, so go around and crush the OTHER half of the army while Draigo and his friends chase you around impotently. If you have to, feed them a Boyz mob or a grot mob to keep them occupied for a turn. But if you want to fight them, you'll have to throw something like two 10-man diversified Nobz squads and Ghazghkull into them, at which point you've spent 1000 points to go head-to-head with 1000 points. You'll win, probably; but it's not the smartest way to deal with the issue.



Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 14:34:10


Post by: Hyd


[Edited, not relevant any longer]


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 14:35:05


Post by: BeRzErKeR


Yep, caught that just a minute after I posted. Corrected my math above; it doesn't make much difference, a single extra kill.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 14:51:29


Post by: CommissarKhaine


Avoid them and shoot them if necessary. If you have to deal with them for some reason, consider burna boyz in a BW. Bunch thmu nicely, toss in a defrolla and tank shock them nicely bunched up. Then, do the flame-template thingy. Considering the point scost of pallies though, I tend to avoid them and eat the rest of their army with orks.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 16:01:02


Post by: cgmckenzie


I use the SAG against terminator and their equals. It is rarely a hard hitter but whatever wound it causes is AP1 on a pie plate, so I'll take it.

For slightly more 'standard' lists, saturation of fire is going to be your friend here. Make them take those armor saves and eventually something will give. Units of 15 lootas will put the bury them in bullets, and shoota boyz mobs of 30 can also put out withering fire, too. If you have burnas in a trukk or battlewagon, slide up next to them and cover as much of them as you can with a template, they will each be taking 12-15 hits, a hard thing to shake off by anybody.

-cgmckenzie


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 16:28:23


Post by: Mechanized Space Corps


As a draigowing player, I find particularly in capture and control people ignoring my deathstar make life easier, I just place my objectives as close as I can to eachother in the enemies half of the board then spread out to cap em all with that 1 squad. Ignoring them only let's them cause more damage in the right hands.

Most annoying thing I face is/are power weapons or str8+ attacks, particularly from dccw's. More than 1 wound caused and my warding stave is much less of a lifesaver.

Dunno a great deal about the ork codex, but if you have any spammable power weapons on disposable squads, try running those into the paladins for some laughs and wounds.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 16:46:54


Post by: Grimgob


I think Nobs is a bad Idea. GK's eat Nobs. I've been playing Pallie GK's lately and ignoring the game objectives and just throwing different units at them to see whats effective. The best way I've found is start deffrolling them first (even if you kill one its worth it plus one of pallies weaknesses is if the dont have a character they are Ld.9 and not fearless, they just might run) while driving your Nobs at the rest of his army because they should beable to handle whats left. call Whaaagh with Ghaz and assault the Pallies after shooting with all your boyz and lootas (even if you have to get boyz out of wagons to shoot and remember your Nobs can handle the rest). On your next assault (when Ghaz's 2++ stopps) charge with 2 squads of boyz/hidden PK (make them choose where to put wounds plus they really do have a problem with hoards once you widdle them down a little) and they should be able to finnish them off. You have to rely on attrition and about 600 points but a 10 man Pallie squad with apothicary runs 700+ so it works out. Even if you throw 600 points at them 1200+ points is alot of Ork army left.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 17:13:59


Post by: BeRzErKeR


Check the mathhammer above for Nobz; unless I've missed something important, no, Paladins do NOT necessarily eat Nobz. Nobz are capable of beating Paladins, point-for-point; the difficulty is that Paladins are a super-deathstar unit, and if you want to beat them in assault it requires using another deathstar unit, or MULTIPLE deathstars.

10 Paladins + Draigo easily runs over a thousand points; with nothing other than an Apothecary, a Warding Stave and a Brotherhood Banner that unit costs 945 points. Saturation of fire is NOT viable; all those Paladins have 2 wounds, a 2+ save and FNP, meaning that Shoota Boyz (who hit on a 5+ and wound on a 4+) have to fire 144 shots in order to kill a SINGLE Paladin; or, in other words, 30 Shootas have to fire at them for three turns before one drops dead. Lootas will have to put out an average of 90 shots to drop one Paladin; and that's assuming the GK player doesn't take advantage of any WAC tricks at all. If they do, you could easily throw 400+ shots at that squad before you saw a single casualty. If you're concentrating your fire to that extent, you're not shooting at anything else with ANY of your Lootas or your Shoota Boyz, and you will lose because the other half of the GK army is not being attacked. Paladins are DESIGNED to be bullet-sponges, don't fall for it.

Rokkit Launchas, Kannons, Kustom Mega-Blastas and the SAG are the only real options Orks have for fighting Paladins at range. You cannot kill them with small arms, they're the ultimate tanks. The SAG should work like a charm for softening them up; average strength of 7, large blast to put down several wounds, and it ignores their armor. Rokkits and kannons need an average of 7 hits to get a wound through armor, so you once again have to concentrate basically all your AT fire on the Paladin deathstar, but once they do they're ID a Paladin per unsaved wound, so at least it's better than small arms. Kustom Mega-Blastas on Killa Kans are probably the best option; BS3, ID, and ignores armor. If you're lucky, a squad of Kans will be able to kill one Paladin a turn, but unfortunately that squad of Paladins is likely carrying 4 psy-bolt psycannons, so those AV11 Kans will vaporize as soon as the Paladins look at them funny.

In brief, Orks don't have the tools to deal with Paladins at range. You need anti-tank guns, and that's exactly what Orks DON'T have. Boyz + Nobz multi-assaulting on Ghazghkull's Waagh! seems like the only pseudo-reliable way to deal with them, and even then you might still lose.

The good thing? 10 Pallies + Draigo might be hell on wheels against Orks, but against pretty much any other army they're just really expensive lascannon bait. That being so, I don't think you're likely to see much of them in tournaments.

EDIT: Wait, Burna Boyz. In assault, that is. 15 Burna Boyz in a BW; Deffrolla, dismount, and assault. The Deffrolla might kill one, though it's not that likely; the Burnas will take 30 attacks, 20 hits, suffer 13 wounds. . . never mind, the squad evaporates on contact. You'd have to use two squads, in which case your surviving 12 Burnas get 36 attacks, 18 hits, 9 wounds, then 4-5 of those are saved by Invul saves and, thanks to WAC, you probably haven't killed a single Paladin.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 17:58:28


Post by: AresX8


Can't you just do the open-topped vehicle template shenanigans for Burnas (Like normal)? Because if you somehow cover the entire unit with the template, that's 165 hits, 82.5 wounds.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 18:10:11


Post by: BeRzErKeR


AresX8 wrote:Can't you just do the open-topped vehicle template shenanigans for Burnas (Like normal)? Because if you somehow cover the entire unit with the template, that's 165 hits, 82.5 wounds.


Well, if you manage to cover the whole squad then yes, 82.5 wounds. After armor saves and FNP that equals 7 unsaved wounds, which can be spread out through WAC onto at least 7 different wound groups (NFS, Apothecary, Psycannon, Warding Stave, Brotherhood Banner, Halberd/Falchions/Daemonhammer, Draigo). You won't kill a single man, although that's certainly a better try than most; then next turn they hose the BW down with 16 S8 psycannon shots against AV 12 (You had to drive up alongside them to get that many hits) and assault with 30 S5 and 6 S6 attacks against the Burnas that drop out.

If you don't manage to get the whole squad, of course, the numbers are much lower. If you hit five of them, for instance (still quite good for a flamer template) that's 75 hits, 37.5 wounds, and a grand total of 3 unsaved.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 18:43:11


Post by: azgrim


yeah burninating a pali squad is kinda missleading normaly 45 wounds on a squad will kill most if not all of it but against the paladins i have seen it do only a few wounds if that.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 18:46:12


Post by: cgmckenzie


You could hit them with burnas from the front of the wagon(open topped+template rules). Have a blob of 30 boyz wade in afterwards, survive ork assault, die GK assault. You now can do the burnas again, hopefully on less pallys.

Thinking about it, 2 SAG's supported by 45 lootas, 2 batteries of big guns(kannons preferably, but lobbas might work for pinning), a compliment of boyz, and some large bike squads might be the best way to deal with this certain problem. Keep them at range and blast them.

If you put the boyz in trukks and reserve them all, you could potentially get a scramble for objectives at the end once all the nasty AT weapons are gone.

-cgmckenzie


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 19:08:38


Post by: Ghenghis Jon


cgmckenzie wrote:If you put the boyz in trukks and reserve them all, you could potentially get a scramble for objectives at the end once all the nasty AT weapons are gone.-cgmckenzie
Your suggestion won't work against 1 squad of 12 Paladins camped over 2 of 3 objectives in Seize Ground. Besides, we're discussing killing Paladins, not objective grabbing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forget what GKs can do to Orks. The fact is that the Ork Codex is not equipped with any volume of anything that will kill Paladins with Wound Allocation and FNP.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 20:03:43


Post by: cgmckenzie


The name of the game is to be able to win. That often involves grabbing some objectives, not just killing paladins.

There is nothing in the troops selection that can kill paladins, so leave them off the table and have them ready to handle other tasks involved in winning; let the SAG and company do work on the pallys.

-cgmckenzie


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 20:55:29


Post by: Ghenghis Jon


cgmckenzie wrote:The name of the game is to be able to win. That often involves grabbing some objectives, not just killing paladins.
I concur. However, this still does not address azgrim's OP.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 21:30:53


Post by: Flavius Infernus


So still no fans of just tank shocking them?

You're looking at a unit that can conceivably take 165 burna hits without losing a single model, and still thinking about ways to shoot or melee them to death?

Assuming that you have to kill them, isn't the 8% chance of them failing a leadership test (16% without a character) a better way to just wipe out the whole unit at once?



Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 21:36:35


Post by: YELLOWBLADES


when you look at it, orks are some of the worst basic infantry in the game, and think about it, GK will usually strike first and kill everything. even if there is some left it wont be enough to do any damage. as an ex-chaos play i charges a tactical squad, 8 khorne beserkers and ABBADON THE DESPOILER! into a squad of pladins, i was wiped out and didnt do anything

try loads of deffcoptas and killa cans


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 21:41:49


Post by: thunderingjove


cgmckenzie wrote:You could hit them with burnas from the front of the wagon(open topped+template rules). Have a blob of 30 boyz wade in afterwards, survive ork assault, die GK assault. You now can do the burnas again, hopefully on less pallys.

Thinking about it, 2 SAG's supported by 45 lootas, 2 batteries of big guns(kannons preferably, but lobbas might work for pinning), a compliment of boyz, and some large bike squads might be the best way to deal with this certain problem. Keep them at range and blast them.

If you put the boyz in trukks and reserve them all, you could potentially get a scramble for objectives at the end once all the nasty AT weapons are gone.

-cgmckenzie
SAGs are not as insane sounding as some might think; you have S8 or better about 40 percent of the time. My gripe is against the Ammo Runt; you're allowed only one!

In all seriousness, here's my suggestions to fight the Draigowing:

1). Rear-attack the Psyrifleman Dreadnaughts with Kommandos with Snikrot and a PK Bikerboss (or Ghazzy). GK Dreadnaughts aren't much of a fight with only two attacks and no close-combat weapons; likelihood of one Psy Dread killing one orkboy is about but tying them up from shooting is effectively as important



2). Against the Paladins themselves, position your 6 pt. Boys broadly and your Meganobs narrowly; that is, for an assault such that each Paladin has at least one boy in base-to-base contact, then position your Meganobs against ONE Paladin, such that only ONE Paladin can attack the Meganobs. That way, the most of the Paladin attacks will fall against the cheap Boys (two or three defending attack per Paladin, causing 5 to 7 wounds), most of the Meganobs will survive to strike against the Paladins (five Meganobs will confer 20 instant death attacks). Hope to wipe the squad. However, it's not guaranteed because of the stave it might not.

3) Bring up Deffdreads. They have AV 12 armor, and the shooting attack from Paladins would only penetrate on six.

Flavius Infernus wrote:So still no fans of just tank shocking them?

You're looking at a unit that can conceivably take 165 burna hits without losing a single model, and still thinking about ways to shoot or melee them to death?

Assuming that you have to kill them, isn't the 8% chance of them failing a leadership test (16% without a character) a better way to just wipe out the whole unit at once?

Not the worst idea in the world, but you would need at least five Trukks to give yourself a 40 percent chase of it happening. You would have to line that up pretty smartly.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 21:46:57


Post by: Grimnarsmate


I know how all you ork players feel, once it took me 6 turns to kill 5 paladins and Draigo, with 20 bloodbrides (ws4 bs4 str3(4) toughness 3 a2 w1 4+invulnerable) with 3 razorflails and 3 shardnets and impalers, he however didn't have an apothecary!


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 21:50:04


Post by: BeRzErKeR


Tank-shocking might work, IF you can get capable vehicles into tank-shock range with them and survive. And then you have to escort them off the board, which isn't easy. . . particularly since when your opponent sees you chivvying his deathstar towards the board edge, he's gonna focus everything on killing the escorts.


Here's the thing; I honestly don't think that you're going to see much of the massive 11-man Paladin + Draigo deathstar from hell. Why? Because it's way too many points! Against Orks it works very well, but against anyone with lascannons, or meltaguns, or high-strength ordnance, they're just targets. They can't take a transport, but without one they'll be shot to pieces by literally anyone except Orks while slogging up the board, and 11 models can't fit in a Rhino; which means they basically need to either have a Land Raider (another 255 points) or a Stormraven, which is only 50 points cheaper than the Land Raider and only AV 12. This is now a 1200+ -point unit! It's basically the whole army, and if a GK player was so unfortunate as to take it against any IG army, Dark Eldar, Long Fang spam, a Vulkan melta list, basically any of the common tournament builds, it would vaporize.

What you need to be prepared to deal with, I would say, is 5 diversified Paladins, with or without Draigo. A single diversified Nobz squad and Ghazghkull is basically the same thing, but better and with a cheaper transport. Use that, or use MANZ screened by Boyz, or Nobz screened by Boyz. . . anything that gets PKs into close-combat with a bunch of ablative wounds will work. As long as you're Fearless, you're fine; your worry is failing Leadership checks and fleeing, since Fearless wounds won't really bother your PK-carriers anyway.

If you run into 10 Paladins + Draigo; you likely won't be able to kill them, so don't bother to try. Wipe out the rest of the army, tank-shock them if you have vehicles in position to do so, toss any fire towards them that doesn't have something more productive to do, and only assault them if you have to. Do your best to win the game without being forced to deal with them. . . but, in all honesty, it'll be an uphill battle. The Orks protection from this kind of thing is that OTHER armies can murder it and so a TAC list hopefully won't include it.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 22:01:50


Post by: Flavius Infernus


BeRzErKeR wrote:Tank-shocking might work, IF you can get capable vehicles into tank-shock range with them and survive. And then you have to escort them off the board, which isn't easy. . . particularly since when your opponent sees you chivvying his deathstar towards the board edge, he's gonna focus everything on killing the escorts.



Not so. If you tank shock a unit that's already falling back, they immediately fall back again 2d6 automatically without a chance to rally. So if you have enough vehicles lined up, you can run them off the table in one turn. Once the unit fails even one leadership test, it's dead unless you do something wrong.

If you're tooling an ork army to kill a unit of paladins, spamming ~40point red trukks with reinforced ram and some trakks or bikes to help herd if you can't quite knock them off in one turn should do the trick.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 22:12:29


Post by: thunderingjove


Flavius Infernus wrote:
Not so. If you tank shock a unit that's already falling back, they immediately fall back again 2d6 automatically without a chance to rally. So if you have enough vehicles lined up, you can run them off the table in one turn. Once the unit fails even one leadership test, it's dead unless you do something wrong.

If you're tooling an ork army to kill a unit of paladins, spamming ~40point red trukks with reinforced ram and some trakks or bikes to help herd if you can't quite knock them off in one turn should do the trick.
Right, but you have to get that original morale fail. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but you can't build your army around it. A hammer can nail a screw into the wall, but it's not ideal.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 22:22:47


Post by: Flavius Infernus


The hammer at least has a chance of getting the screw in. If we're doing tool metaphors, then killing paladins with orks is like trying to put a screw in with a cruller.

The expected value is that a paladin unit will have failed about half the time after about six tank shocks. About 10 for the unit with a character. Considering you can do 10 tank shocks with about 400 points worth of trukks, sounds like a bargain to me.

I'm talking from experience here. Tank-shocking many GK units off the table over the course of many games has persuaded me that it's generally the best way to kill them.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 22:30:34


Post by: NickTheButcher


YELLOWBLADES wrote:when you look at it, orks are some of the worst basic infantry in the game....


Not sure how you came to this conclusion, but the Ork Boy is actually one of the best basic infantry units in the game. The strength comes in numbers...which if you are an Ork player, you bring plenty of them every game.

1v1, yes they look bad. But 30v10 and things balance out, which is more typically the case.





Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 22:31:52


Post by: BeRzErKeR


Flavius Infernus wrote:

Not so. If you tank shock a unit that's already falling back, they immediately fall back again 2d6 automatically without a chance to rally. So if you have enough vehicles lined up, you can run them off the table in one turn. Once the unit fails even one leadership test, it's dead unless you do something wrong.

If you're tooling an ork army to kill a unit of paladins, spamming ~40point red trukks with reinforced ram and some trakks or bikes to help herd if you can't quite knock them off in one turn should do the trick.




I would love to see that, gotta admit. It would take a lot of veeeery careful set-up, but just the look on the GK player's face would be worth it.



Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 22:34:27


Post by: thunderingjove


Flavius Infernus wrote:The hammer at least has a chance of getting the screw in. If we're doing tool metaphors, then killing paladins with orks is like trying to put a screw in with a cruller.

Hahaha. I'm a man who hammered many a screw. Sometimes it works, sometimes it ruins the plaster. I have opened packages with pearing knives, and opened up my hand too.

To reiterate, I understand why a Speed Freak Trukk squad would want to get out and let the shocks make the walks. However, I think the strategy I list above is more consistent, likewise from experience.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 23:31:33


Post by: Soss


I play orks a lot and have come up against palidans. They are tough. I recently have been playing a Mad Dok list with a full 30 boyz with cyborg armor. I also run some lootas, kanz and another 30 man reg boyz sqaud. The cybork armor boyz have won some of those matches, the thing to do is becareful of placement of Mad Dok so he doesn't get killed before he can attack, mainly so the unit will still have fell no pain for the fearless saves they will probaly need to take. . I try and tie them up with the cybork boyz then assualt them with the kanz. After the first assualt I then try and get mad dok into b2b. The lootas do good if they can stay far enough away from them but only really do 1 or 2 wounds not enough to kill the unit. I think with out mad dok the best bet would be to stay away and try and shoot them.

Mad Dok w/ cyborg boyz works.

Kanz do not wok on there own, only as a counter assualt unit. With the ability to get 2 hamerhands off and the whole sqaud being str 6 they don't survive long. I have had 2 times when three kanz where dead before they got to attack.

Palidans are tough and I am still looking at what I can do to beat them. I just got Gazghul so I have yet to try him out.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 23:51:19


Post by: Kumorikage


azgrim wrote:I am having trouble killing Th/SS terminators and paladins.Ive tried shootas in a wagon which are mildly effective against Terminators but paladins are almost immune thanks to FNP.I have tried tossing Ghaz into a paladin squad but ward staves and falchions negate most of the incoming damage.I charged a squad of paladin with 20 boys and they all died before i was able to swing .I am at a loss on how to effectively kill these guys .


to quote Jeff Goldblum in Independence Day, "If we can't get through their defenses, we gotta get around 'em."

Yeah, Paladins are pretty hard to kill. Hammernators too. But they are slow as hell and their range sucks. Take like 100 gretchen and just screen the hell out of 'em. NEVER assault Paladins with throwaway units. Put an annoying unit in their way, and make the Paladins assault you. Make them waste their turn dealing with your stuff.

Meanwhile, take down their support, and run around them in circles. Paladins exert very powerful board control, but only on a very small portion of the board. Ignoring them is the best way to win.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/02 23:59:07


Post by: BeRzErKeR


Kumorikage wrote:

to quote Jeff Goldblum in Independence Day, "If we can't get through their defenses, we gotta get around 'em."

Yeah, Paladins are pretty hard to kill. Hammernators too. But they are slow as hell and their range sucks. Take like 100 gretchen and just screen the hell out of 'em. NEVER assault Paladins with throwaway units. Put an annoying unit in their way, and make the Paladins assault you. Make them waste their turn dealing with your stuff.

Meanwhile, take down their support, and run around them in circles. Paladins exert very powerful board control, but only on a very small portion of the board. Ignoring them is the best way to win.


Unless they've taken psycannons. A 10-man squad can have 4 psycannons, giving them 16 S7 Rending shots (or S8, if they took psybolt ammunition) at 24" range, or 8 shots if they move. If they park in the middle of the board, that is a fething BIG portion of the battlefield under their guns, which are fully capable of wrecking pretty much any vehicle that isn't AV 14 or inflicting ID on your Nobz with impunity.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 00:39:06


Post by: Gornall


BeRzErKeR wrote:
Kumorikage wrote:

to quote Jeff Goldblum in Independence Day, "If we can't get through their defenses, we gotta get around 'em."

Yeah, Paladins are pretty hard to kill. Hammernators too. But they are slow as hell and their range sucks. Take like 100 gretchen and just screen the hell out of 'em. NEVER assault Paladins with throwaway units. Put an annoying unit in their way, and make the Paladins assault you. Make them waste their turn dealing with your stuff.

Meanwhile, take down their support, and run around them in circles. Paladins exert very powerful board control, but only on a very small portion of the board. Ignoring them is the best way to win.


Unless they've taken psycannons. A 10-man squad can have 4 psycannons, giving them 16 S7 Rending shots (or S8, if they took psybolt ammunition) at 24" range, or 8 shots if they move. If they park in the middle of the board, that is a fething BIG portion of the battlefield under their guns, which are fully capable of wrecking pretty much any vehicle that isn't AV 14 or inflicting ID on your Nobz with impunity.


Pysbolt Ammo doesn't improve the strength of Pyscannon shots, so they stay at S7.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 01:01:15


Post by: DevianID


Psyammo doesnt work on psycannons. It does make those stormbolters s5 though, but IMHO its a waste on paladins.

I think if I had to make a new TAC ork list, with the knowledge that TAC now includes paladins, it really wouldnt change my list much. I always ran ghazzy+KFF, MANz, lootas, ect. Not an easy game, but as was said knowing HOW to assault paladins is 90% of the battle.

Deffrollas are still good, having a pair of battlewagons and a pair of trucks goes a long way in most ork lists. First, you get to try tankshocking the deathstar, preferrably with the wagons first. If the s10 kills a few, great! If they fail morale, escorting off the board becomes a reality. Otherwise, Ghaz, MANz, and a few boys to lock the paladins down will perform fantastic, and you dont have to waaagh until you realize you won or lost combat if you dont need the 6 inch fleet, meaning you hold onto fearless and that 2++ save for as long as possible.

Now, this works because the wagons are safe from the psyriflemen for the most part, and Paladin armies tend to have less psycannon shooting outside of the main 10 man squad. Dictating the initiative is critical, as eventually the wagons will go down to shooting, preventing the mobility and concentration ability of the ork assault.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 02:25:02


Post by: Isseyfaran


You guys aren't doing justice to the OP by giving terrible terrible advice.

DeffRollas - Really? Even with D6 S10, you are only killing one Paladin on average (2+ armor save!!!)

Big Guns/Boom Gun - S8 is cool, but sorry, AP3 sucks against 2+ armor. Just not efficient when your chances are 1/6.

Shokk Attack Gun - No one uses them in a competitive TAC list. But if you are tailoring, ok fine.

Lootas/Burnas - Terribly inefficient. EVEN IF the burna template covers 5 paladins, thats only 75 hits, 37.5 wounds, 3.125 unsaved wounds after 2+ armor & FNP - not even sufficient to kill a single paladin after wound allocation.

Mass Tank Shock - Great. But sadly, orks have problem doing that. Mass trucks makes a terrible ork list.

Diversified Nobs - Ok, not too bad, since they are much cheaper than the diversified Paladins. But still not efficient.

And all the comments about pouring them with tons of bullets - Inefficient shooting is inefficient shooting. Theoretically, 1000 s4 shots will be cool, but do you have that? - NO


SO SERIOUSLY, Killa kans (for Kan wall build) and Ghaz (for wagon assault lists) are the 2 only most efficient way of dealing with Paladins.

Ghazzy with his 7 s10 powerfist and 2++, he will on average kill 2-4 Paladins outright, while only suffering 1 wound after 1 round of combat. A 225 character against a unit of 500 points (5 Pallies) or even 1000 points unit and achieving that kind of result, I would say that's efficient.

Other than that, orks have no real way of dealing with them. Face it, it's just bad matchup.



Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 02:54:26


Post by: -666-


BeRzErKeR wrote:

Unless they've taken psycannons. A 10-man squad can have 4 psycannons, giving them 16 S7 Rending shots (or S8, if they took psybolt ammunition) at 24" range, or 8 shots if they move.



Paladins are relentless so even if they move it's still 16 shots for four psycannons.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 02:58:33


Post by: Grimgob


Flavius Infernus is right. Deffrolla is the best odds because you can tank shock them off the table. like I said before their Ld is one of their only weaknesses. they can only glance against armour 14. And Berzerker I will give you that a big diverse Nob squad against 5 will work ok (not great) but not a full kitted 10 man.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 03:03:17


Post by: -666-


The deffrollaz first has to move into position to tank shock and survive in order to pull it off. The odds are only 8 percent if you do manage to tank shock them. It doesn't seem like good odds and if you fail which is most likely what will occur then you've put your army directly in harm's way. I think the best tactic is to avoid them altogether and focus on taking objectives if it's not a killpoint mission.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 03:03:50


Post by: NickTheButcher


Isseyfaran wrote:You guys aren't doing justice to the OP by giving terrible terrible advice.

DeffRollas - Really? Even with D6 S10, you are only killing one Paladin on average (2+ armor save!!!)

Big Guns/Boom Gun - S8 is cool, but sorry, AP3 sucks against 2+ armor. Just not efficient when your chances are 1/6.

Shokk Attack Gun - No one uses them in a competitive TAC list. But if you are tailoring, ok fine.

Lootas/Burnas - Terribly inefficient. EVEN IF the burna template covers 5 paladins, thats only 75 hits, 37.5 wounds, 3.125 unsaved wounds after 2+ armor & FNP - not even sufficient to kill a single paladin after wound allocation.

Mass Tank Shock - Great. But sadly, orks have problem doing that. Mass trucks makes a terrible ork list.

Diversified Nobs - Ok, not too bad, since they are much cheaper than the diversified Paladins. But still not efficient.

And all the comments about pouring them with tons of bullets - Inefficient shooting is inefficient shooting. Theoretically, 1000 s4 shots will be cool, but do you have that? - NO


SO SERIOUSLY, Killa kans (for Kan wall build) and Ghaz (for wagon assault lists) are the 2 only most efficient way of dealing with Paladins.

Ghazzy with his 7 s10 powerfist and 2++, he will on average kill 2-4 Paladins outright, while only suffering 1 wound after 1 round of combat. A 225 character against a unit of 500 points (5 Pallies) or even 1000 points unit and achieving that kind of result, I would say that's efficient.

Other than that, orks have no real way of dealing with them. Face it, it's just bad matchup.



The OP was asking how to effectively kill Paladins.

I agree, Ghazzy and Kans are the top choice but even then, those can only do so much. Supplementing them with some of the other suggested methods, makes them even more effective. It's called force multiplication. Saying that they are terrible advice it terrible advice in and of itself.

Have some squads of Lootas shoot while Ghazzy rides up in a Deffrolla equipped battlewagon. Turn 2, call the WAAAGH!, tank shock, hop out with some diversified Nobz and assault. Sounds effective to me.

Only thing I would be worried about is the next turn when the WAAAGH wears off and there's more Paladins to be killed. Maybe get back in the Battlewagon and play keep away?

Also, shooting is viable, considering Paladins are the suck beyond 24" range.

Yes, they aren't going to die easily, but what else can you do?


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 03:14:19


Post by: BeRzErKeR


Isseyfaran wrote:


SO SERIOUSLY, Killa kans (for Kan wall build) and Ghaz (for wagon assault lists) are the 2 only most efficient way of dealing with Paladins.

Ghazzy with his 7 s10 powerfist and 2++, he will on average kill 2-4 Paladins outright, while only suffering 1 wound after 1 round of combat. A 225 character against a unit of 500 points (5 Pallies) or even 1000 points unit and achieving that kind of result, I would say that's efficient.

Other than that, orks have no real way of dealing with them. Face it, it's just bad matchup.



Well, I mentioned Ghazghkull quite a while ago as the best option, and several times since. . .

Kans? Well, they can do decently, but they aren't likely to GET there. AV 11 vs. psycannons does not last long, even with the KFF save. 16 shots, 11 hits, 4 pens and 2 glances. . . bad numbers, especially with the squadron rules. Even the KFF won't save you from that. Then, once you get into CC, you realize that Kans only have WS2, and so hit Paladins on 5+. 3 Kans will only score 3 hits on the charge, and likely only kill 1 Paladin. Then the others get to swing back, hitting on 3s and glancing on 6; 9 Paladins get 27 attacks, 18 hits, 9 wounds. Odds are that you actually lose combat, and then your Kans take an extra hit. . . I dunno. Four glances a turn may not seem like much, but every one reduces the attacks you put out next round, and they add up eventually. You might be able to tarpit them, but you probably won't kill them.

I'd suggest using a Deff Dred instead. It's got WS4, and you can give it 6 attacks on the charge; on the first round it's just as good as 3 Kans, and after that it's better. Furthermore, Paladins can't even glance AV12, so barring some very, VERY lucky rolling from Draigo you're guaranteed not to lose combat, and could very well break them after 2-3 rounds. Then you can chase them away from the objective they were camping, or hopefully tank-shock them a couple times and send them off the table.

The only difficulty is keeping the Dred alive to reach close-combat. It would work well in a mech list; hide it behind a KFF-carrying Battlewagon, don't break out into the open until you're nearly in combat range on turn 2 or 3. Most people will be shooting at the BWs anyway, and Grey Knights have a hard time dealing with armor at range. Psyflemen are basically their only option, and as good as they are there can only be so many of them.

So; best options are Ghazzy and walkers. If that's not possible, diversified Nobz work ok, or the SAG to put down wounds from range, or tank-shock them over and over in the hope of breaking them, with Deffrolla-equipped BWs. If none of those are possible, you're screwed.

Ideally, do all of the above. Tank Shock with a Deffrolla wagon, drop out Ghazzy, and assault him in alongside a Deff Dred and maybe a squad of Nobz. THAT will do the trick.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 04:55:38


Post by: Soss


The other thing with kanz is if you get into close combat with paladins and an IC then you are going up against double hammer hand which makes them strength 6 which glances on 5's and pens on 6's. All my kanz get destroyed against GK.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 05:21:39


Post by: Isseyfaran


Dodgywop wrote:I agree, Ghazzy and Kans are the top choice but even then, those can only do so much. Supplementing them with some of the other suggested methods, makes them even more effective. It's called force multiplication.
I didnt know this is called "FORCE MULTIPLICATION". Is this something new you learnt somewhere? Anyone wants to second this?

Dodgywop wrote:Have some squads of Lootas shoot while Ghazzy rides up in a Deffrolla equipped battlewagon. Turn 2, call the WAAAGH!, tank shock, hop out with some diversified Nobz and assault. Sounds effective to me.
Your lootas are better off shooting something else, SERIOUSLY. Unless you are telling me there is NOTHING else on the board besides the Paladins.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Well, I mentioned Ghazghkull quite a while ago as the best option, and several times since. . .
No need to quote me and then tell me "Hei I did mention Ghazzy". My post said nothing about what Berzerker did or did not say. Different purpose altogether

BeRzErKeR wrote:I'd suggest using a Deff Dred instead. It's got WS4, and you can give it 6 attacks on the charge; on the first round it's just as good as 3 Kans, and after that it's better. Furthermore, Paladins can't even glance AV12, so barring some very, VERY lucky rolling from Draigo you're guaranteed not to lose combat, and could very well break them after 2-3 rounds. Then you can chase them away from the objective they were camping, or hopefully tank-shock them a couple times and send them off the table.
Don't know how you got 6 attacks, but even if you are talking about 4 DCCW on a Dread, that's 105 points. You can get 2 Killa Kans with Rokkits for that, who have 6 attacks on the charge as well (assuming you are right). WS4 or WS2, you are still hitting on 4+, although with WS2, you are hit on 3+ by Pallies. Also, in a competitive TAC kan wall list, no one uses DeffDread.
And why can't Pallies glance AV12?

BeRzErKeR wrote:Ideally, do all of the above. Tank Shock with a Deffrolla wagon, drop out Ghazzy, and assault him in alongside a Deff Dred and maybe a squad of Nobz. THAT will do the trick.
Assaulting Nobs alongside Ghazzy is a terribly stupid idea because the Paladins can then mostly choose to hit the Nobs rather than Ghaz. You then lose the advantage of your 2++ . So instead of winning combat, you are more likely to draw or lose combat, and then forced to take fearless saves.

The only time you should send reinforcement into the combat is after 2 full rounds of combat, when the Pally squad have been thinned down, and after Ghazzy has lost his 2++.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 05:53:13


Post by: NickTheButcher


Isseyfaran wrote:
Dodgywop wrote:I agree, Ghazzy and Kans are the top choice but even then, those can only do so much. Supplementing them with some of the other suggested methods, makes them even more effective. It's called force multiplication.
I didnt know this is called "FORCE MULTIPLICATION".


That's why I put it, since you appeared to have no idea what you were talking about.




Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 06:46:01


Post by: Isseyfaran


Dodgywop wrote:
Isseyfaran wrote:
Dodgywop wrote:I agree, Ghazzy and Kans are the top choice but even then, those can only do so much. Supplementing them with some of the other suggested methods, makes them even more effective. It's called force multiplication.
I didnt know this is called "FORCE MULTIPLICATION".


That's why I put it, since you appeared to have no idea what you were talking about.




LOL dude, I suggest you ask folks here what is the meaning of "FORCE Multiplication". Or Wikipedia is your best friend. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_multiplication

Supplementing with shootas, lootas, burnas, tank shocks, etc DOES NOT create a force multiplier.

I was waiting for you to post something to embarass yourself, and indeed you did . I consider myself to be very good with the game, tactics, strategies, and some technical stuffs and theories. So unless you are very sure of yourself or about the topic, please don't say to me things like "you have no idea what you are talking about" .


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 07:45:57


Post by: jy2


Isseyfaran wrote: WS4 or WS2, you are still hitting on 4+, although with WS2, you are hit on 3+ by Pallies.

Actually, WS2 is hitting the WS5 paladins on 5's.

Other than that, I agree with most of what you said. Draigowing is a bad matchup for orks.

Either go Ghazzy on them, assault them with 9 tin cans or deff-rolla them with 5 battle wagons and then disembark all those boys and assault them.

You either take the gamble and go for broke in 1 huge scrimmage, or lose by playing conservatively.



Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 07:56:51


Post by: NickTheButcher


Isseyfaran wrote:
Dodgywop wrote:
Isseyfaran wrote:
Dodgywop wrote:I agree, Ghazzy and Kans are the top choice but even then, those can only do so much. Supplementing them with some of the other suggested methods, makes them even more effective. It's called force multiplication.
I didnt know this is called "FORCE MULTIPLICATION".


That's why I put it, since you appeared to have no idea what you were talking about.




LOL dude, I suggest you ask folks here what is the meaning of "FORCE Multiplication". Or Wikipedia is your best friend. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_multiplication

Supplementing with shootas, lootas, burnas, tank shocks, etc DOES NOT create a force multiplier.

I was waiting for you to post something to embarass yourself, and indeed you did . I consider myself to be very good with the game, tactics, strategies, and some technical stuffs and theories. So unless you are very sure of yourself or about the topic, please don't say to me things like "you have no idea what you are talking about" .


Actually it does....not sure what your definition is, but your arrogance seems to prevent you from thinking clearly.

Lets break it down so you can understand.

Force Multiplier - "an attribute or a combination of attributes which make a given force more effective"

So in this context, "Given Force" would be Ghazghkull/Kans.

The "attribute or combination of attributes to make a given force (I.E. Mr. Thraka), more EFFECTIVE" would be the suggestions made by other members in the thread (I.E. ANYTHING that helps Ghazzy's assault results end up better than it would be without.) Even if you can throw 1 more wound int the mix before the main assault, you're still adding a force multiplier.

Furthermore, I was essentially agreeing with you. The only thing I disagreed on was that you stated that the prior advice in the thread was "terrible". It wasn't.

You may be the end all be all to strategy in TT gaming, but your attitude isn't going to make any friends, nor will people be as inclined to listen to you.



Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 08:16:35


Post by: Jidmah


Isseyfaran wrote:
Dodgywop wrote:I agree, Ghazzy and Kans are the top choice but even then, those can only do so much. Supplementing them with some of the other suggested methods, makes them even more effective. It's called force multiplication.
I didnt know this is called "FORCE MULTIPLICATION". Is this something new you learnt somewhere? Anyone wants to second this?

You shouldn't be talking so high and mighty, if you don't even know what a force multiplier is. A force multiplier doesn't just add to your army, but increases the value of other models. Ghazghkull's PotW!, the KFF or the cover provided by kanz stomping in fron t of boyz would all be such force multipliers.

Dodgywop wrote:Have some squads of Lootas shoot while Ghazzy rides up in a Deffrolla equipped battlewagon. Turn 2, call the WAAAGH!, tank shock, hop out with some diversified Nobz and assault. Sounds effective to me.
Your lootas are better off shooting something else, SERIOUSLY. Unless you are telling me there is NOTHING else on the board besides the Paladins.

Shoot what else? Ven dreads with fortitude? As soon as you have taken down any razorbacks the GK player was able to afford on top of his death-star, there aren't exactly many targets worth shooting left.
Same for the deff rolla - it's not like it is going to reach backfield units if that means showing it's back to the paladins.

BeRzErKeR wrote:I'd suggest using a Deff Dred instead. It's got WS4, and you can give it 6 attacks on the charge; on the first round it's just as good as 3 Kans, and after that it's better. Furthermore, Paladins can't even glance AV12, so barring some very, VERY lucky rolling from Draigo you're guaranteed not to lose combat, and could very well break them after 2-3 rounds. Then you can chase them away from the objective they were camping, or hopefully tank-shock them a couple times and send them off the table.
Don't know how you got 6 attacks, but even if you are talking about 4 DCCW on a Dread, that's 105 points. You can get 2 Killa Kans with Rokkits for that, who have 6 attacks on the charge as well (assuming you are right). WS4 or WS2, you are still hitting on 4+, although with WS2, you are hit on 3+ by Pallies. Also, in a competitive TAC kan wall list, no one uses DeffDread.
And why can't Pallies glance AV12?

As already pointed out, KANz hit on 5+, meaning even a full squad on the charge has a decent chance of failing to kill any paladins at all. As for the dread, paladins can try glancing with krak grenades on a double six, or use their usually one hammer, which will result in usually one glancing or penetrating hit. However, a deff dread against GK will go the way of all deff dreds, being left immobilized or destroyed somewhere midfield by turn 2. That's why you should use both, target saturation is the key.
Nothing prevents you from replacing a mob of boyz with two deff dreads in a kan wall, if you can expect paladins in your meta. Being inflexible in your list building is hardly an argument for or against a unit.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Ideally, do all of the above. Tank Shock with a Deffrolla wagon, drop out Ghazzy, and assault him in alongside a Deff Dred and maybe a squad of Nobz. THAT will do the trick.
Assaulting Nobs alongside Ghazzy is a terribly stupid idea because the Paladins can then mostly choose to hit the Nobs rather than Ghaz. You then lose the advantage of your 2++ . So instead of winning combat, you are more likely to draw or lose combat, and then forced to take fearless saves.

The only time you should send reinforcement into the combat is after 2 full rounds of combat, when the Pally squad have been thinned down, and after Ghazzy has lost his 2++.

Agree. Anything else will just result in unnecessary fearless wounds on Ghazghkull. Don't stand in the way when the master does his work.

For Berzerker:
You mostly seem to be skipping the topic of 5 Paladins+Draigo, or 5 Paladins+Inquisitor/Techmarine with grenades or even Paladins+Sanctuary(Coteaz). Nobz will get shafted by any of those(though against Sanctuary you might get lucky). If you brought nobz along anyways, you might want to assign them to other tasks, like clearing objectives or smashing psyflemen.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 08:19:16


Post by: Isseyfaran


Dodgywop wrote:Actually it does....not sure what your definition is, but your arrogance seems to prevent you from thinking clearly.
LOL, if I am arrogant, then at least I have what it takes to be arrogant (well, you are welcomed to challenge me to a couple of games in vassal anytime). More importantly, at least I didn't try to act like I know certain things when clearly I don't.



Dodgywop wrote:Lets break it down so you can understand.
Force Multiplier - "an attribute or a combination of attributes which make a given force more effective"
Your definition isn't complete to begin with.

"Force multiplication, in military usage, refers to an attribute or a combination of attributes which make a given force more effective than that same force would be without it. The expected size increase required to have the same effectiveness without that advantage is the multiplication factor. "

The existence of a MULTIPLCATION EFFECT is KEY.

Force multiplier does not exist in 1+1 = 2. Force multiplier exists in 1+1 = 4, for example.

Dodgywop wrote:So in this context, "Given Force" would be Ghazghkull/Kans.
The "attribute or combination of attributes to make a given force (I.E. Mr. Thraka), more EFFECTIVE" would be the suggestions made by other members in the thread (I.E. ANYTHING that helps Ghazzy's assault results end up better than it would be without.) Even if you can throw 1 more wound int the mix before the main assault, you're still adding a force multiplier.
Shooting shootas, burnas, lootas (you said ALL of the suggested methods) into Paladins DOES NOT create a MULTIPLICATION effect, merely "ADDITION", LOL. And in fact, not even addition. Stripping 3 wounds off a squad of double wound Paladins does not help Ghazzy at all when his S10 claw is going to instant kill the Paladins anyway. The opponent is only going to allocate the wounds to the single wound Paladins.

Dodgywop wrote:Furthermore, I was essentially agreeing with you. The only thing I disagreed on was that you stated that the prior advice in the thread was "terrible". It wasn't.
S4 shootas, s5 big shootas, s7 deffguns, s8AP3 guns are all terribly ineffective. Of course, that's not saying your lootas are better off doing NOTHING if there was nothing else besides the Paladins on the table. But in almost every other situation, your lootas, shoota, burnas are better off shooting at something else.

Deffdreads (instead of KillaKans), mass trucks, makes for terrible TAC ork lists. So yeah, my stand stays. Apart from Ghazzy (for wagon build), and kans (for kanwall build), the rest were terrible advice. I wouldn't pretend otherwise just to make people happy.

Dodgywop wrote:You may be the end all be all to strategy in TT gaming, but your attitude isn't going to make any friends, nor will people be as inclined to listen to you.

So far my attitude of giving the best and true advice to anyone who seeks them has been most welcomed. Not sure about your false/terrible advice though.

OH, and I don't need to act nice to people like you so that you are MORE INCLINED to listen to my advice. True advice is true advice, facts are fact. If you think your ego is more important and choose to dismiss the facts as facts, it's your own loss anyway.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 08:37:39


Post by: NickTheButcher


Isseyfaran wrote:
Dodgywop wrote:Actually it does....not sure what your definition is, but your arrogance seems to prevent you from thinking clearly.
LOL, if I am arrogant, then at least I have what it takes to be arrogant (well, you are welcomed to challenge me to a couple of games in vassal anytime). More importantly, at least I didn't try to act like I know certain things when clearly I don't.



Dodgywop wrote:Lets break it down so you can understand.
Force Multiplier - "an attribute or a combination of attributes which make a given force more effective"
Your definition isn't complete to begin with.

"Force multiplication, in military usage, refers to an attribute or a combination of attributes which make a given force more effective than that same force would be without it. The expected size increase required to have the same effectiveness without that advantage is the multiplication factor. "

The existence of a MULTIPLCATION EFFECT is KEY.

Force multiplier does not exist in 1+1 = 2. Force multiplier exists in 1+1 = 4, for example.

Dodgywop wrote:So in this context, "Given Force" would be Ghazghkull/Kans.
The "attribute or combination of attributes to make a given force (I.E. Mr. Thraka), more EFFECTIVE" would be the suggestions made by other members in the thread (I.E. ANYTHING that helps Ghazzy's assault results end up better than it would be without.) Even if you can throw 1 more wound int the mix before the main assault, you're still adding a force multiplier.
Shooting shootas, burnas, lootas (you said ALL of the suggested methods) into Paladins DOES NOT create a MULTIPLICATION effect, merely "ADDITION", LOL. And in fact, not even addition. Stripping 3 wounds off a squad of double wound Paladins does not help Ghazzy at all when his S10 claw is going to instant kill the Paladins anyway. The opponent is only going to allocate the wounds to the single wound Paladins.

Dodgywop wrote:Furthermore, I was essentially agreeing with you. The only thing I disagreed on was that you stated that the prior advice in the thread was "terrible". It wasn't.
S4 shootas, s5 big shootas, s7 deffguns, s8AP3 guns are all terribly ineffective. Deffdreads (instead of KillaKans), mass trucks, makes for terrible TAC ork lists. So yeah, my stand stays. Apart from Ghazzy (for wagon build), and kans (for kanwall build), the rest were terrible advice. I wouldn't pretend otherwise just to make people happy.

Dodgywop wrote:You may be the end all be all to strategy in TT gaming, but your attitude isn't going to make any friends, nor will people be as inclined to listen to you.

So far my attitude of giving the best and true advice to anyone who seeks them has been most welcomed. Not sure about your false/terrible advice though.


Again, you fail to understand.

Lets use your Wikipedia link as an example.

"Some common force multipliers are:

Military tactics, such as force concentration"

Is one example. There are others as well. I admit that my "1 wound" example wasn't the best, but the point was that Ghaz by himself isn't as good as Ghaz with Lootas, Burnas, Deffrolas (or all 3) CONCENTRATING on a single squad of paladins. To say that those won't contribute to multiplying the effectiveness of Ghaz is simply wrong.

As for the arrogance, "if I am arrogant, then at least I have what it takes to be arrogant" just proves you're nothing more than presumptuous and quick to interject your "knowledge" based on ill-informed assumptions.

I'll try to quit de-railing this thread. I'm sure the OP has gone on to bigger and more Orky things. Hopefully he has some better luck in dealing with those nasty Paladins.






Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 08:38:28


Post by: Isseyfaran


Jidmah wrote:You shouldn't be talking so high and mighty, if you don't even know what a force multiplier is. A force multiplier doesn't just add to your army, but increases the value of other models. Ghazghkull's PotW!, the KFF or the cover provided by kanz stomping in fron t of boyz would all be such force multipliers.

Yes, this is force multiplier. But excuse me, did I in any of my post, suggest that this is not the case? I mean SERIOUSLY, did you read? I said shooting s4 s and then s7 s, and then assaulting Ghazzy into the Paladins does not generate a force multiplier.

To give more examples :-
Priest giving FNP to units around generates force multiplier.
Vulkan in a list full of meltas, multimelta, flamers, heavy flamers, etc generates force multiplier.
Adding 10 more boys into a combat supporting 20 other boys DOES NOT generate force MULTIPLIER.

Jidmah wrote:Shoot what else? Ven dreads with fortitude? As soon as you have taken down any razorbacks the GK player was able to afford on top of his death-star, there aren't exactly many targets worth shooting left.
YES, razorbacks, rhinos, Dreads, Ven Dreads (in order of priority), are ALL better targets for the lootas THAN PALADINS.


Jidmah wrote:That's why you should use both, target saturation is the key.
Nothing prevents you from replacing a mob of boyz with two deff dreads in a kan wall, if you can expect paladins in your meta. Being inflexible in your list building is hardly an argument for or against a unit.

Except that DeffDreads armed with 4 DCCW makes for terrible target saturation.


Well, you seem to agree with the rest of what I have posted, I assume


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dodgywop wrote:Again, you fail to understand.

Lets use your Wikipedia link as an example.

"Some common force multipliers are:

Military tactics, such as force concentration"
I don't see how this links to what we are discussing, especially when you choose to just throw in a phrase here and skip the elaboration. So I mean if you want to post something, back it up. Otherwise, leave it out

Dodgywop wrote:I admit that my "1 wound" example wasn't the best, but the point was that Ghaz by himself isn't as good as Ghaz with Lootas, Burnas, Deffrolas (or all 3) CONCENTRATING on a single squad of paladins. To say that those won't contribute to multiplying the effectiveness of Ghaz is simply wrong.

Contribute to the effectiveness of Ghaz? --- Minimal/Negligible.
MULTIPLY the effectiveness? --- ABSOLUTELY NO.



Dodgywop wrote:As for the arrogance, "if I am arrogant, then at least I have what it takes to be arrogant" just proves you're nothing more than presumptuous and quick to interject your "knowledge" based on ill-informed assumptions.
You haven't been able to prove until now, either tactically, strategically, or technically that my facts (not assumptions) are ill-informed.



Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 09:05:13


Post by: Doklunggraba


Rush Ghaz, and 10 Nobs with 3 PK's and 4 BCs, 3 Waaagh Banners and other wargear for the wound shananagins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Make sure their in a BW to start with though (with an ard case, armor plates and RPJ to get their that much faster


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 09:15:00


Post by: NickTheButcher


Isseyfaran wrote:

Dodgywop wrote:As for the arrogance, "if I am arrogant, then at least I have what it takes to be arrogant" just proves you're nothing more than presumptuous and quick to interject your "knowledge" based on ill-informed assumptions.
You haven't been able to prove until now, either tactically, strategically, or technically that my facts (not assumptions) are ill-informed.



You haven't been able to prove until now, either tactically, strategically, or technically that your facts and assumptions are true and fact.

Relax guy, it's just plastic.

You obviously know much more about everything Warhammer related, and for that, you win 100 interwebs. Congratulations. Don't spend them all in one place!

But I digress (again),

Paladins are tough. The thread has posted a few possible ways to handle them. Playtest a few and see what fits best in your list/playstyle.

I'll try out Ghaz, Nobz and a Battlewagon come next gaming night to see how it fares in actual play.



Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 09:19:23


Post by: Isseyfaran


Dodgywop wrote: You obviously know much more about everything Warhammer related, and for that, you win 100 interwebs. Congratulations. Don't spend them all in one place!

But I digress,

Paladins are tough. The thread has posted a few possible ways to handle them. Playtest a few and see what fits best in your list/playstyle.

I'll try out Ghaz, Nobz and a Battlewagon come next gaming night to see how it fares in actual play.

LOL, you made me sad face. After all your arrogant claims, throwing things in here and not being able to back them up, you are stooping to this now?

HAHA, what an attempt to save yourself from embarassment, SERIOUSLY.

As for whether I know anything else besides Warhammer, well feel free to look out for me in other forums. Otherwise, sad to break the truth to you, this is 40k forum and therefore I will only discuss 40k and nothing else :-)

Dodgywop wrote:Paladins are tough if you use silly tools to deal with them. The thread has posted a few possible ways to handle them but most are terribly inefficient way. Use the obviously effective way to deal with them.
Corrected that for you

Dodgywop wrote:Relax guy, it's just plastic.
FINALLY, something correct come from you. You are right, they are just plastic. But you started it, so I have no choice but to play along.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 09:47:20


Post by: Ghenghis Jon


You know, you guys could just have PMed each other and left the rest of this out of it.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 10:25:36


Post by: Jidmah


Isseyfaran wrote:
Jidmah wrote:Shoot what else? Ven dreads with fortitude? As soon as you have taken down any razorbacks the GK player was able to afford on top of his death-star, there aren't exactly many targets worth shooting left.
YES, razorbacks, rhinos, Dreads, Ven Dreads (in order of priority), are ALL better targets for the lootas THAN PALADINS.

Assuming 750 points sunk into paladins, and at least another strike squad or Corteaz+Henchmen required, there shouldn't bee too much of all that. In addition, lootaz can do close to nothing against ven dreads in cover. Assuming the enemy forces you to reroll all results which don't destroy the dread or it's last weapon, you will pretty much waste their firepower there. I'd rather take my chances with paladins. Unlike assault, you can shoot every unit multiple times, so if you don't kill any paladins with all your big(shootaz), by the time the lootaz get around to shooting paladins, they will start losing their second wounds. Keep in mind that due to the huge amount of wounds each unit of orks produces(about 6-7 per shoota boyz mob, burna templates), a paladin can easily be killed with the others still having all their wounds, as they have to allocated before that ridiculous 11/12 save.
Jidmah wrote:That's why you should use both, target saturation is the key.
Nothing prevents you from replacing a mob of boyz with two deff dreads in a kan wall, if you can expect paladins in your meta. Being inflexible in your list building is hardly an argument for or against a unit.

Except that DeffDreads armed with 4 DCCW makes for terrible target saturation.

It doesn't, as GK have exactly two anti-tank weapons: Psybolt Autocannons and Psycannons. Both of those are just as good at killing deff dreads, as they are at killing kanz. Adding another two units to shoot on top of three units of kanz does make for a good target saturation. Where half a unit of kanz made it into combat before, you now have half a unit of kanz and two deff dreads, or one full unit of kanz and a deff dread, or whatever.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 10:43:30


Post by: Isseyfaran


Jidmah wrote: In addition, lootaz can do close to nothing against ven dreads in cover. Assuming the enemy forces you to reroll all results which don't destroy the dread or it's last weapon, you will pretty much waste their firepower there.
If we go by the law of averages here, yes the chances of the same amount of loota fire taking a wound off the Paladin is lower than the chance of the loota doing any significant damage to the Ven Dread. HOWEVER, stripping a wound off the Paladins is close to useless, while a lucky weapon destroyed, wrecked, or explosion result nets you a higher return. So while your average chance is better in the case of shooting against Paladins, your returns are limited and CLOSE TO useless. So unless you are planning to shoot the Paladins to death, stripping their wound one by one and not send in Ghaz AT ALL, then leaving the Paladins surviving with one wound floating does not help Ghaz's assault AT ALL.

Jidmah wrote:Unlike assault, you can shoot every unit multiple times, so if you don't kill any paladins with all your big(shootaz), by the time the lootaz get around to shooting paladins, they will start losing their second wounds. Keep in mind that due to the huge amount of wounds each unit of orks produces(about 6-7 per shoota boyz mob, burna templates), a paladin can easily be killed with the others still having all their wounds, as they have to allocated before that ridiculous 11/12 save.
Again, applying the law of average here, it takes 1/36 chance for a Paladin to fail his 2+ armor twice consecutively. FURTHERMORE, besides 15 Burnas in a wagon, few ork units can generate more than 20 wounds per round of shooting. EVen 10 is optimistic. So while you may get lucky (or the opponent gets unlucky) once in a blue moon killing a single Paladin outright with 2 unsaved wounds, most of the time your shots are pretty useless.

Jidmah wrote:It doesn't, as GK have exactly two anti-tank weapons: Psybolt Autocannons and Psycannons. Both of those are just as good at killing deff dreads, as they are at killing kanz. Adding another two units to shoot on top of three units of kanz does make for a good target saturation. Where half a unit of kanz made it into combat before, you now have half a unit of kanz and two deff dreads, or one full unit of kanz and a deff dread, or whatever.
Not contending the fact that adding DeffDreads to 9 Killa Kans IS target saturuation, but rather spending 30 points for 2 extra DCCW on a single body of AV12 that is going to do nothing for its first 3 turns of slogging makes for poor target saturation.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 11:44:53


Post by: Jidmah


Isseyfaran wrote:
Jidmah wrote: In addition, lootaz can do close to nothing against ven dreads in cover. Assuming the enemy forces you to reroll all results which don't destroy the dread or it's last weapon, you will pretty much waste their firepower there.
If we go by the law of averages here, yes the chances of the same amount of loota fire taking a wound off the Paladin is lower than the chance of the loota doing any significant damage to the Ven Dread. HOWEVER, stripping a wound off the Paladins is close to useless, while a lucky weapon destroyed, wrecked, or explosion result nets you a higher return. So while your average chance is better in the case of shooting against Paladins, your returns are limited and CLOSE TO useless. So unless you are planning to shoot the Paladins to death, stripping their wound one by one and not send in Ghaz AT ALL, then leaving the Paladins surviving with one wound floating does not help Ghaz's assault AT ALL.

First of all, I am planing on shooting the paladins to death. Second five lootaz will cause 3.33 hits, .55 penetratings, 0.277 after cover, .093 results to be rerolled into 0.031 destroyed results. So, by napkin math two units of 15 lootaz shooting at ven dreads for five turns will destroy about one.
In addition, there is no guarantee that Ghaz will kill the guy with the wound. He might as well still be around to get his other wound shot off later.

Again, applying the law of average here, it takes 1/36 chance for a Paladin to fail his 2+ armor twice consecutively. FURTHERMORE, besides 15 Burnas in a wagon, few ork units can generate more than 20 wounds per round of shooting. EVen 10 is optimistic.

20 wounds? 10? What for? Were are talking about a unit of 6 here. No need to deal more than six wounds in one go, and shoota boyz do that easily. Once some of the paladins are wounded, you need even less. He has to allocate wounds to wounded models that way, and there is a chance of killing that wounded model.

So while you may get lucky (or the opponent gets unlucky) once in a blue moon killing a single Paladin outright with 2 unsaved wounds, most of the time your shots are pretty useless.

Judging from my nob bikers, this kind of thing happens much more often than once in a blue moon. And T5/4+/FNP aren't that much weaker against S4 shooting than T4/2+/FNP

Jidmah wrote:It doesn't, as GK have exactly two anti-tank weapons: Psybolt Autocannons and Psycannons. Both of those are just as good at killing deff dreads, as they are at killing kanz. Adding another two units to shoot on top of three units of kanz does make for a good target saturation. Where half a unit of kanz made it into combat before, you now have half a unit of kanz and two deff dreads, or one full unit of kanz and a deff dread, or whatever.
Not contending the fact that adding DeffDreads to 9 Killa Kans IS target saturuation, but rather spending 30 points for 2 extra DCCW on a single body of AV12 that is going to do nothing for its first 3 turns of slogging makes for poor target saturation.

It's not like any of the other weapons are of much use against GK though. You might as well five it a KMB for fluke shots at the paladins. Personally I use DCCW/Skorcha for a cheaper load-out. This has nothing to do with target saturation though, it's not like the enemy is capable of handling nine kanz. If he were, kan walls wouldn't work. If anything, those dreads are more likely to reach close combat if your opponent focuses on kanz only.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 12:10:29


Post by: Banzaimash


Massed firepower will always kill everything. just use shoota boyz, lootas and a three kannon/ Zzapp gun batteries.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 12:42:23


Post by: Grundz


my thoughts

ABSOLUTE MUST: make sure he is allocating wounds properly, every paladin must have unique equipment in order to allocate wounds, if you do 50 wounds to the unit, they must be assigned across the squad, he doesn't roll saves and then assign them, this gives you the possability to snipe out the apothicary or banner bearer.

1. pile in on the paladins with a ton of boys, if he doesn't have purifier backup, they should at least tie the deathstar up for a bit

2. pile in after-assault with burnas if they can't flame the unit down, paladins have to eat a round of a ton of power weapon attacks, not as effective but an option

3. as above, pile in after he engages in combat wtih kans, deff dreads ect.

4. keep tank shocking them with anything until they break then escort them off the table

5. don't expect to out-elite them, they are the most "elite" unit in the game, ghaz or some other OP special character is now how you beat them, they only have 2 attacks each, there's only a few of them, pile on what they are weak against dont try to overwhelm their strengths.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 12:57:58


Post by: Jidmah


Grundz wrote:1. pile in on the paladins with a ton of boys, if he doesn't have purifier backup, they should at least tie the deathstar up for a bit

Unless a ton of boyz includes two units of at least 20, that's not going to work. Even then, getting 40 boyz into combat is tricky.

2. pile in after-assault with burnas if they can't flame the unit down, paladins have to eat a round of a ton of power weapon attacks, not as effective but an option

If you definited don't need them for anything else, you can of course toss your burnaz away. They are better at finishing the squad once it has taken a bunch of wounds, though.

3. as above, pile in after he engages in combat wtih kans, deff dreads ect.

4. keep tank shocking them with anything until they break then escort them off the table

5. don't expect to out-elite them, they are the most "elite" unit in the game, ghaz or some other OP special character is now how you beat them, they only have 2 attacks each, there's only a few of them, pile on what they are weak against dont try to overwhelm their strengths.

They usually have three attacks each, backed up by hammerhand/NFW, WS5 and FNP. However, they only have storm bolters and psycannons with BF4 if you don't charge them. That way, they are no more dangerous than a purifiers, so why play their game?


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 13:00:23


Post by: Isseyfaran


Jidmah wrote:20 wounds? 10? What for? Were are talking about a unit of 6 here. No need to deal more than six wounds in one go, and shoota boyz do that easily. Once some of the paladins are wounded, you need even less. He has to allocate wounds to wounded models that way, and there is a chance of killing that wounded model.
Firstly, I was talking about a squad of 10, OBVIOUSLY. But nvm, 6 it shall be, and alright a squad of 30 shoota boys can achieve that on average. OH, and actually, it is 1/144, not 1/36. I forgot about the FNP. So seriously, LOL

Jidmah wrote:Judging from my nob bikers, this kind of thing happens much more often than once in a blue moon. And T5/4+/FNP aren't that much weaker against S4 shooting than T4/2+/FNP.
Quoting your personal experience and claiming them as the average or likely outcome doesn't make a good argument. Math tells you that the odds are 1/144.

Jidmah wrote:It's not like any of the other weapons are of much use against GK though. You might as well five it a KMB for fluke shots at the paladins. Personally I use DCCW/Skorcha for a cheaper load-out. This has nothing to do with target saturation though, it's not like the enemy is capable of handling nine kanz. If he were, kan walls wouldn't work. If anything, those dreads are more likely to reach close combat if your opponent focuses on kanz only.
Spending additional 20 points which could otherwise have been spread out and spent on other areas IS poor target saturation and point allocation. And bear in mind, it has to be a TAC list if the ork list is to be competitive at all.
I didn't diss the idea of the kans. I was merely saying DeffDreads aren't excellent choices, even worse when they are armed with 4 DCCW, which is what the math of attacks and wounds was based on.

Jidmah wrote:
First of all, I am planing on shooting the paladins to death. Second five lootaz will cause 3.33 hits, .55 penetratings, 0.277 after cover, .093 results to be rerolled into 0.031 destroyed results. So, by napkin math two units of 15 lootaz shooting at ven dreads for five turns will destroy about one.
In addition, there is no guarantee that Ghaz will kill the guy with the wound. He might as well still be around to get his other wound shot off later.

And lastly, your MOST interesting comment. Would you enlighten everyone here how you plan on JUST shooting all the paladins to death? Take note we are talking about an army list like the DraigoWing, that is mainly made up of Paladins, and not lists that consist of only 5 or 6 paladins with the bulk of its points spent somewhere else. For the latter scenario, the obvious tactic will be to focus your efforts on eliminating the other parts of the army.

So again, would you teach us how you plan on winning a DraigoWing list by smply shooting them with orks?


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 13:07:58


Post by: BeRzErKeR


When I see people claiming that Deff Dreads will inevitably get destroyed by T2 or something like that, I always wonder if they've ever actually used them; not to give offense, but I run them often, and that just isn't what happens in my experience. I've run Dreadmobz with 5 of them, I've run 6 Kans and 2 Dreads, and currently I'm playing around with 2 Dreads in a Battlewagon Bash list. Since you can take one as Troops for every Big Mek you have, the first one doesn't even compete for a HS slot.

A 4-CCW Deff Dread with grot riggers and armour plates is 120 points. It is thus dead cheap, first off; if you DO lose it, it's no more important than losing a squad of Trukk Boyz.

Secondly, it just doesn't care about the half the results on the Damage Table. Shaken only stops shooting and it has no guns; Armour Plates convert Stunned to Shaken; and Weapon Destroyed just removes one of its 5 attacks, which is irritating but not really important. Furthermore, even Immobilized only has a 50% chance to keep it still for longer than one turn. What this all means is that Glancing it does basically nothing; you have to Pen it to do any damage.

Third, AV 12 with a KFF is not easy to destroy. Hydras, for instance, are largely ineffective against a Deff Dread; 4 TL S7 shots will usually give 3 hits, of which one will pen or glance. If it's a glance, it has a 1/6 chance of doing something productive (ie Immobilizing) and then a 1/2 chance of being ignored anyway; a pen has a 1/2 chance of Immobilizing or Destroying, and then a 1/2 chance of being ignored. To have good odds of taking a Deff Dread out even temporarily thus requires getting 12 glances or 4 pens, which S7 weapons are unlikely to do in the two turns they have before it charges.

If my opponent doesn't concentrate enough fire on the Dreads to get that many damage results, they aren't going to stop them and I get to charge in with DCCWs. The Deff Dreads then proceed to do much, much more damage than their points cost seems to indicate. On the other hand, if my opponent DOES commit the necessary fire, he almost certainly did so by diverting lascannon, melta or (in the case of Tau) railgun fire away from my Battlewagons; in which case the Dreads have served their purpose by allowing Ghazghkull, my Nobz and my Shoota Boyz to reach attack range unchecked. Once again; these Dreads cost 120 points each. They are entirely disposable.

Finally, in my experience most people don't have much experience dealing with Deff Dreads; they don't work anything like Imperial Dreadnoughts do. Either they ignore them under the assumption that they can kill them any time they please and shoot at the BWs instead, or they fire EVERYTHING at them first turn; so either I get the Dreads into combat, or I get the BWs into combat, and either way I'm fine with that.

Back to the topic at hand; Kanz suck in assault against Paladins. They really do. Krak grenades can kill them, even regular attacks with Hammerhand can glance them, Draigo can kill them pretty easily. Deff Dreads cannot be hurt by Hammerhand attacks by anyone except Draigo, can only be glanced by boxcars using krak grenades, and put out enough attacks and a high enough WS that they're pretty sure to be killing a Paladin every round. The only thing they don't like is Daemonhammers, which are admittedly a problem but probably won't be enough of one to save the Paladin squad assaulted by a Dread or two and Ghazzy all at the same time.

And remember; they're 120 points. Cheap as dirt. Even if the Paladins DO kill the Dread, as long as you killed 2 of them first you've made up your points, and weakened them for a follow-up attack.

Isseyfaran wrote:Spending additional 20 points which could otherwise have been spread out and spent on other areas IS poor target saturation and point allocation. And bear in mind, it has to be a TAC list if the ork list is to be competitive at all.
I didn't diss the idea of the kans. I was merely saying DeffDreads aren't excellent choices, even worse when they are armed with 4 DCCW, which is what the math of attacks and wounds was based on.


I DO run Dreads in my TAC list; 4 BWs, 2 squads of Nobz, 2 squads of Boyz, Ghazzy, a KFF Big Mek, and 2 Dreads. 2000 points total. I repeat; the resilience of Deff Dreads is seriously underestimated due to the fact that they effectively IGNORE half the Vehicle Damage table, most people do not deal with them well, and they're so cheap that I don't care if they get shot down anyway. Might not be the most competitive list in the world, but it's worked well for me so far, and I'd have no hesitation about taking it up against Draigowing.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 16:08:00


Post by: Jidmah


Isseyfaran wrote:
Jidmah wrote:20 wounds? 10? What for? Were are talking about a unit of 6 here. No need to deal more than six wounds in one go, and shoota boyz do that easily. Once some of the paladins are wounded, you need even less. He has to allocate wounds to wounded models that way, and there is a chance of killing that wounded model.
Firstly, I was talking about a squad of 10, OBVIOUSLY. But nvm, 6 it shall be, and alright a squad of 30 shoota boys can achieve that on average. OH, and actually, it is 1/144, not 1/36. I forgot about the FNP. So seriously, LOL

You want exact math? Fine.

First off all twenty boyz are more than enough to produce 6 or more wounds. Even averages should tell you that. 20 boyz will have 38 shots, 12.6 hits, 6.3 wounds.

Assuming 5 wounds done on five paladins:
The chance of all paladins saving those wounds is (11/12)^5 = 64.7%
The chance of exactly one paladin not saving one wound is (1/12 * (11/12)^4)*5 = 29.4%
The chance of exactly two paladins not saving one wound is ((1/12)^2 * (11/12)^3)*10 = 5.3%
The chance of exactly three paladins not saving one wound is ((1/12)^3 * (11/12)^2)*10 = 0,4%
The chance of exactly four paladins not saving one wound is ((1/12)^4 * 11/12)*5 = 0.02%
The chance of no paladins saving is (1/12)^5 = 0.0004%

The chance of a second unit shooting and causing five wounds resulting in exactly one unsived wound is also 29.4%, etc. The chance of them killing a previous wounded paladin with a single unsaved wound is:
If one wound was previously caused .294 * 1/5 = 5,88%
If two wounds were previously caused .294 * 2/5 = 11,76%
If three wounds were previously caused .294 * 3/5 = 17,64%
If four wound were previously caused .294 * 4/5 = 23.52%

Just for comparison, your claimed 1/144 would be 0.69%.

This doesn't even factor in causing more five unsaved wounds (likely) or more than one unsaved wound (not so much). So two units of shoota boyz stand a decent chance of actually killing random models from the paladin unit - neither player can influence which one.

Jidmah wrote:Judging from my nob bikers, this kind of thing happens much more often than once in a blue moon. And T5/4+/FNP aren't that much weaker against S4 shooting than T4/2+/FNP.
Quoting your personal experience and claiming them as the average or likely outcome doesn't make a good argument. Math tells you that the odds are 1/144.

Proven wrong above. In addition, Paladins suffer a wound from a S4 hit 1/2*1/6*1/2 = 1/24. Nob bikers suffer a wound from S4 1/3 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 1/12. Thats ~8% vs ~4%, hardly a noticeable difference.

Jidmah wrote:It's not like any of the other weapons are of much use against GK though. You might as well five it a KMB for fluke shots at the paladins. Personally I use DCCW/Skorcha for a cheaper load-out. This has nothing to do with target saturation though, it's not like the enemy is capable of handling nine kanz. If he were, kan walls wouldn't work. If anything, those dreads are more likely to reach close combat if your opponent focuses on kanz only.
Spending additional 20 points which could otherwise have been spread out and spent on other areas IS poor target saturation and point allocation.

How does the equipment of a vehicle impact target saturation at all? Either it's shot at with the same weapons or it is not. Anything else is irrelevant. A chimera with a multi-laser provides just as much target saturation as a chimera with a flamer.

And bear in mind, it has to be a TAC list if the ork list is to be competitive at all.

If paladins kill your army, there is no point being competitive in an imaginary TAC setting. If you can expect paladins to definitely show up in your metagame, fielding deff dreads to kill them is competitive. You also don't have to change your kan wall all that much to include them. They can be taken as troops, so they don't even compete for any slots, you just have to fiend the points.

I didn't diss the idea of the kans. I was merely saying DeffDreads aren't excellent choices, even worse when they are armed with 4 DCCW, which is what the math of attacks and wounds was based on.

Agree.

And lastly, your MOST interesting comment. Would you enlighten everyone here how you plan on JUST shooting all the paladins to death? Take note we are talking about an army list like the DraigoWing, that is mainly made up of Paladins, and not lists that consist of only 5 or 6 paladins with the bulk of its points spent somewhere else. For the latter scenario, the obvious tactic will be to focus your efforts on eliminating the other parts of the army.

So again, would you teach us how you plan on winning a DraigoWing list by smply shooting them with orks?

I already told you how I do beat them in practice. Unload everyone but thrakka somewhere in terrain and tank shock paladins with deff rollas. Maybe some are killed, maybe they run away. Usually not the case. Shoot them with everything. Drop Thrakka on them, so the BW can't be shot by the paladins now stuck in combat. Then have the battlewagons take care of any vehicles in the back field, returning to tank shock paladins next turn. They most likely start shooting and/or assaulting battlewagons now, because of the danger of running away. If they don't, continue steamrolling them. Just keep shooting them and moving back if they try to come closer, or simply push them away from your orks by tank-shocking on top of them. Once they have lost a few models and their banner or FNP or Draigo charge nobz into them to finish them off. If everything goes well, you have killed the paladins and have two tirds of your army left. If it gets hairy, you have half left. Koptaz and buggies take care of anything else lurking around - at the very least lock a psyfleman in combat for a few turns.

And even then, there are Draigowing armies made of 2x5 or, at very high point levels, even 3x5 paladins. You can't assault two of those units to death. With my attempt, they are even easier to kill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Berzerker, meltas do kill deff dreads. That's the problem, really. If it gets close enough to charge next turn(12"), some random melta-gun wielding guys will run up to it and blow it up. There are simply too many melta weapons around, otherwise you would be right.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 16:30:50


Post by: BeRzErKeR


Jidmah wrote:

Berzerker, meltas do kill deff dreads. That's the problem, really. If it gets close enough to charge next turn(12"), some random melta-gun wielding guys will run up to it and blow it up. There are simply too many melta weapons around, otherwise you would be right.


Great! That's a melta that isn't blowing up a Battlewagon, which is just as expensive, also vulnerable to meltas, and in some ways more useful.

Plus,even an AP 1 Penetrating hit only has about a 1/3 of actually killing or immobilizing a Deff Dread under a KFF. But if we're going to keep discussing Dreads, let's move it to the Deff Dread thread I started; here, let's stick with Paladins. Dreads DO work well against them, since Paladins can't take meltas and they're pretty scant in the rest of the GK list, particularly a Draigowing list.

EDIT: Quick math indicates that a BS 4 melta shot within melta range has almost exactly a 20% chance to destroy or immobilize a Deff Dread under KFF protection, or a 40% chance if not. Those are pretty decent odds, particularly for such a cheap unit. As extra insurance you could swap out one DCCW for a skorcha, which makes the Dread a little cheaper and lets you at least, get a little revenge by flaming the melta-carrier if you're Immobilized.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 17:29:04


Post by: Isseyfaran


Jidmah wrote:Just for comparison, your claimed 1/144 would be 0.69%.

This doesn't even factor in causing more five unsaved wounds (likely) or more than one unsaved wound (not so much). So two units of shoota boyz stand a decent chance of actually killing random models from the paladin unit - neither player can influence which one.
DID you just said 0.69% IS decent chance. I mean, LOL?

Jidmah wrote:Proven wrong above.
It was more like the problem of your interpretation, and the way you like to paint beautiful pictures by providing misleading probabilities. If you are BOOSTING up your probability simply by firing your WHOLE army into a single pallie squad, then by all means. KILL one Please. EVen then, your probabilities are still pathetic (maybe excellent in your eyes, since even a 0.69% IS good probability to you, LOL).

Jidmah wrote:
How does the equipment of a vehicle impact target saturation at all? Either it's shot at with the same weapons or it is not. Anything else is irrelevant. A chimera with a multi-laser provides just as much target saturation as a chimera with a flamer.
When you look at target saturation, you look at the overall list as a whole dude, not unit by unit or model by model. Wasting additional 20 points (in ANY CASE) when the point could be better spread and spent elsewhere is POOR saturation. In a TAC list, 2 extra DCCWs aren't as point efficient (taking into account the things they do and can do throughout a game of 5-7 turns) as 2 skorcha or 2 big shootas for example.

Jidmah wrote:If paladins kill your army, there is no point being competitive in an imaginary TAC setting. If you can expect paladins to definitely show up in your metagame, fielding deff dreads to kill them is competitive. You also don't have to change your kan wall all that much to include them. They can be taken as troops, so they don't even compete for any slots, you just have to fiend the points.
Except that they don't. I have already shown that GHaz and Kans are sufficient in takin down Paladins, and whose lists are efficient against all other codexes. The point of making a TAC list is to strike that balance.

Jidmah wrote:Unload everyone but thrakka somewhere in terrain and tank shock paladins with deff rollas. Maybe some are killed, maybe they run away. Usually not the case. Shoot them with everything. Drop Thrakka on them,
LOL, in one thread you are advocating against Ghaz, and now you are presenting a different argument.

Jidmah wrote:so the BW can't be shot by the paladins now stuck in combat. Then have the battlewagons take care of any vehicles in the back field, returning to tank shock paladins next turn. They most likely start shooting and/or assaulting battlewagons now, because of the danger of running away. If they don't, continue steamrolling them. Just keep shooting them and moving back if they try to come closer, or simply push them away from your orks by tank-shocking on top of them. Once they have lost a few models and their banner or FNP or Draigo charge nobz into them to finish them off. If everything goes well, you have killed the paladins and have two tirds of your army left. If it gets hairy, you have half left. Koptaz and buggies take care of anything else lurking around - at the very least lock a psyfleman in combat for a few turns.
Looking at your comments here, I seriously doubt you know what you are arguing for.

I explained to the OP that to deal with Paladins with orks, Ghaz is the most "EFFICIENT" choice.
THen comes all your crappy counter argument that the more efficient way to deal with them IS to shoot them with orks (and even continue staying away from them - in another thread).

Note : My stand is Ghaz is the most efficient candidate for this job than any other units, NOT Ghaz is > Ghaz + loota + shoota + DeffRolla combined. I am not even debating on tactics OR ways to execute your moves (like loading ghaz into wagons, deploying lootas into cover, etc etc).

At the end of the day, you are telling us, do EVERYTHING of the above - tank shock, shoot them, throw ghaz into them.

LOL, seriously, who doesn't know throwing everything of your army (including Ghaz himself) is > throwing Ghaz in alone in the equation, ALL else being equal? I mean, what's your point? LOL.
At the end of the day, Ghaz is the one who makes the most impact, point for point, damage for damage. Shootas, lootas, deffrollas are just chipping in because they have nothing better to do. If there is a PsyDread somewhere, the wagons and lootas are better off targetting him than the Paladins.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
BeRzErKeR wrote:
Jidmah wrote:

Berzerker, meltas do kill deff dreads. That's the problem, really. If it gets close enough to charge next turn(12"), some random melta-gun wielding guys will run up to it and blow it up. There are simply too many melta weapons around, otherwise you would be right.


Great! That's a melta that isn't blowing up a Battlewagon, which is just as expensive, also vulnerable to meltas, and in some ways more useful.

Plus,even an AP 1 Penetrating hit only has about a 1/3 of actually killing or immobilizing a Deff Dread under a KFF. But if we're going to keep discussing Dreads, let's move it to the Deff Dread thread I started; here, let's stick with Paladins. Dreads DO work well against them, since Paladins can't take meltas and they're pretty scant in the rest of the GK list, particularly a Draigowing list.

EDIT: Quick math indicates that a BS 4 melta shot within melta range has almost exactly a 20% chance to destroy or immobilize a Deff Dread under KFF protection, or a 40% chance if not. Those are pretty decent odds, particularly for such a cheap unit. As extra insurance you could swap out one DCCW for a skorcha, which makes the Dread a little cheaper and lets you at least, get a little revenge by flaming the melta-carrier if you're Immobilized.
Agree with all your attempted math, except your assumption that there is only 1 melta.
If you can have 2k worth of DeffDread and AV14 goodness, then I can have 2k worth of Missiles, meltas, and Multimelta goodness. A melta firing at your dread does not mean nothing is firing at your wagon. It simply means ANOTHER melta is firing at your wagon :-).


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 18:16:18


Post by: BeRzErKeR


Isseyfaran wrote:Agree with all your attempted math, except your assumption that there is only 1 melta.
If you can have 2k worth of DeffDread and AV14 goodness, then I can have 2k worth of Missiles, meltas, and Multimelta goodness. A melta firing at your dread does not mean nothing is firing at your wagon. It simply means ANOTHER melta is firing at your wagon :-).


That's certainly true. But what it really means is that FEWER meltas are shooting at my wagon.

The game is all about forcing your opponents to make choices. If you hit my Deff Dread with, just for example, a melta-carrying Veteran squad, it's probably going to die. But that means they're NOT shooting at anything else; you've been forced to use your meltas to take out the Dread, which means that the odds of Ghazghkull and 7 Nobs hitting home just went way up. That's target saturation.
And if you DON'T hit the Dread with at least enough firepower to immobilize it, then it'll hit home. And a Deff Dread does nearly as much damage in CC as Ghazghkull does. Against an army with plenty of AT weapons, like IG, I'd certainly lose at least a couple BWs/Dreads on the way in. It'll take two turns to get there, after all, so the other army gets at least one full round of shooting and more likely two.

But we're not talking about IG, we're talking about Draigowing. Can you point out to me where you see melta in Draigowing? I think (don't have the GK codex with me, could be wrong) that the only place you can get it is on Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders, and Inquisitorial Henchmen. And a multi-melta Dreadnought means one Psyfleman less. If I'm playing 2k Orks and you're playing 2k Draigowing, no, you DON'T have 2k worth of meltas. You've got a bunch of psycannons and some Psyfleman Dreadnoughts, and my Deff Dreads with KFF coverage aren't scared of those.



Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 18:54:54


Post by: jy2


As a Draigowing player, let me give some perspective from the GK point of view.

1. A common Draigowing configuration is the paladinstar - Draigo, librarian and 10 paladins. Usually, you won't see Apothecaries being used by good paladin players, meaning no FNP. It is just not necessary. More experienced players would rather use the 75 points on something else.

2. Paladins with a librarian can kill 9 killa kans just fine. Might of Titans means they hit like monstrous creatures and will just tear through those kans. Though not all Draigowing players run libbies, many do. Though I guess if you're running 9 kans, what else they got to do besides assault?

3. Do not underestimate volume-of-attacks. There is no single best way to kill a paladinstar. Only through a concentrated effort can you hope to take them down. Pour huge amounts of attacks into them. Units like lootas, burnas and boys will whittle them down through time, and that's all your really need to do. Once they get reduced to less than half strength, their offensive output is just not enough. Then they can even be tarpitted by units of 20 boys.

4. Limited mobility and low-model count. In objectives-based games, you don't necessarily have to kill the paladins to beat them. Use mobility to your advantage and play the missions. Screen and tarpit. Delaying/preventing them from reaching obectives may be a more viable solution than trying to kill them outright.



Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 19:01:27


Post by: Grimgob


Thank you for an outside opinon jy2, it really helps to get an overall view as this is orks current big issue.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/03 20:06:11


Post by: -666-


This is a classic thread.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 01:38:20


Post by: Isseyfaran


BeRzErKeR wrote:But we're not talking about IG, we're talking about Draigowing. Can you point out to me where you see melta in Draigowing? I think (don't have the GK codex with me, could be wrong) that the only place you can get it is on Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders, and Inquisitorial Henchmen. And a multi-melta Dreadnought means one Psyfleman less. If I'm playing 2k Orks and you're playing 2k Draigowing, no, you DON'T have 2k worth of meltas. You've got a bunch of psycannons and some Psyfleman Dreadnoughts, and my Deff Dreads with KFF coverage aren't scared of those.
Actually I was talking about DeffDreads being poor in a TAC competitive list. Maybe you missed it. Maybe you didnt read. Read again.
If allowed to tailor my list against DraigoWing, I ll just take Ghaz and walkers, and minimal of everything. But what's the point of tailoring.


BeRzErKeR wrote:That's certainly true. But what it really means is that FEWER meltas are shooting at my wagon.
That's true, except that if it is sufficient for everyone to do their job at the end of the day, then it doesn't matter anymore.

BeRzErKeR wrote:The game is all about forcing your opponents to make choices. If you hit my Deff Dread with, just for example, a melta-carrying Veteran squad, it's probably going to die. But that means they're NOT shooting at anything else; you've been forced to use your meltas to take out the Dread, which means that the odds of Ghazghkull and 7 Nobs hitting home just went way up. That's target saturation.
Actually no. Your Dreads are on average slower than your wagons by 4 inches every turn (not even taking into account terrains). Over the course of 3 turns, that's 12 inches. I don't even have to fire my meltas simultaneously at your Dread and wagon.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 01:55:11


Post by: BeRzErKeR


Isseyfaran wrote:Actually I was talking about DeffDreads being poor in a TAC competitive list. Maybe you missed it. Maybe you didnt read. Read again.
If allowed to tailor my list against DraigoWing, I ll just take Ghaz and walkers, and minimal of everything. But what's the point of tailoring.


Two points. First; this is a thread about killing Paladins. As such, I am, in fact, discussing units that are good at. . . killing Paladins. What a shock!

Second; I DO take Deff Dreads in my TAC list. I've said that. Maybe you missed it. Maybe you didn't read. Read again. My entire contention is that they AREN'T poor in a TAC competitive list, and are even BETTER against Paladins than against a lot of other lists.


Isseyfaran wrote:That's true, except that if it is sufficient for everyone to do their job at the end of the day, then it doesn't matter anymore.


If your opponent has enough weapons to kill everything in your list, then yes, you lose. That's kind of a pointless thing to say, though. The Deff Dreads INCREASE the odds that your opponent WON'T have enough for 'everyone to do their job at the end of the day'. Which is, y'know, kind of the point.


Isseyfaran wrote: Actually no. Your Dreads are on average slower than your wagons by 4 inches every turn (not even taking into account terrains). Over the course of 3 turns, that's 12 inches. I don't even have to fire my meltas simultaneously at your Dread and wagon.


Over the course of 3 turns, my Dreads (which started off 12" onto the board) will move an average of 28 or 29 inches. Add in a 6" assault, and they have a threat range over those three turns of 46". At the beginning of my second Shooting Phase, they will be between 25" and 30" forward.

My BWs can move 39" over three turns, but they don't even HAVE to use all that range. My units have a 28" assault radius out of those BWs, using Ghazzy's Waaagh; 13" BW move, 2" disembark range, 1" width of the base, 6" Fleet, 6" assault. In order to melta a BW, which you are only capable of doing on your second turn before I charge, you will have to move forward to meet me. If you do that, the Deff Dreads can reach you on my next turn.

If you hold the meltas back until after I've dropped off the assault, then I don't care what you do to the BWs. They've done their job, anything else they accomplish is just gravy; and at that point my Deff Dreads will be making their own attack run, anyway. Target saturation, for a BW/Deff Dread list, is only important for ranged weapons; you cannot drop enough meltas on me Turn 2 to take out my vehicles, and that's really the only chance you get before the charge hits.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 02:19:58


Post by: Isseyfaran


BeRzErKeR wrote:
Two points. First; this is a thread about killing Paladins. As such, I am, in fact, discussing units that are good at. . . killing Paladins. What a shock!
No need to be shocked. Because few people here advocate list tailoring.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Second; I DO take Deff Dreads in my TAC list. I've said that. Maybe you missed it. Maybe you didn't read. Read again. My entire contention is that they AREN'T poor in a TAC competitive list, and are even BETTER against Paladins than against a lot of other lists.
YOUR EXPERIENCE counts for nothing, especially when you have no tournament record to speak of. So what we are left here is theoryhammering. But if you feel there is a strong need to prove me wrong on the table, Vassal anytime :-).

BeRzErKeR wrote:That's true, except that if it is sufficient for everyone to do their job at the end of the day, then it doesn't matter anymore
If your opponent has enough weapons to kill everything in your list, then yes, you lose. That's kind of a pointless thing to say, though. The Deff Dreads INCREASE the odds that your opponent WON'T have enough for 'everyone to do their job at the end of the day'. Which is, y'know, kind of the point..
Which is why you need to spread out your points more efficiently across your entire army list so that your opponent DOES NOT have enough weapons to take out everything you have before you take him out.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Over the course of 3 turns, my Dreads (which started off 12" onto the board) will move an average of 28 or 29 inches. Add in a 6" assault, and they have a threat range over those three turns of 46".
If you start 12" off the board, I m assuming you are talking about pitched battle, in which case no smart opponents will deploy directly opposite you. 46" don't get you into combat (more often than not) if opponent deploy across the corner.

BeRzErKeR wrote:My BWs can move 39" over three turns, but they don't even HAVE to use all that range. My units have a 28" assault radius out of those BWs, using Ghazzy's Waaagh; 13" BW move, 2" disembark range, 1" width of the base, 6" Fleet, 6" assault. In order to melta a BW, which you are only capable of doing on your second turn before I charge, you will have to move forward to meet me. If you do that, the Deff Dreads can reach you on my next turn.
So the key point is, the meltas don't even have to worry about both the Dread and the Wagon in the same turn. They can deal with the Wagons on turn 2, and the Dreads turn 3.

BeRzErKeR wrote:If you hold the meltas back until after I've dropped off the assault, then I don't care what you do to the BWs. They've done their job, anything else they accomplish is just gravy; and at that point my Deff Dreads will be making their own attack run, anyway.
Which is why I don't do that. For a thorough explanation of how to use meltas, you probably should read up on Dash v.s. Stelek's BatRep.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Target saturation, for a BW/Deff Dread list, is only important for ranged weapons; you cannot drop enough meltas on me Turn 2 to take out my vehicles, and that's really the only chance you get before the charge hits.
2 things wrong here.
(1) If your wagon can travel 26" over 2 turns, then meltas CAN reach you on turn 2.
(2) Range Weapon for e.g. S8 Missiles don't fire at AV14 wagons. If side armor is exposed, then same concept applies, deal with wagon - the faster threat, Dreads later. So both cases, there is minimal target saturation to speak of.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 02:37:43


Post by: Yuber


Isseyfaran wrote:
BeRzErKeR wrote:Second; I DO take Deff Dreads in my TAC list. I've said that. Maybe you missed it. Maybe you didn't read. Read again. My entire contention is that they AREN'T poor in a TAC competitive list, and are even BETTER against Paladins than against a lot of other lists.
YOUR EXPERIENCE counts for nothing, especially when you have no tournament record to speak of. So what we are left here is theoryhammering. But if you feel there is a strong need to prove me wrong on the table, Vassal anytime :-).


I suppose your experience counts for something?

LOL Vassal - warhammer40k played on paper.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 02:41:50


Post by: Isseyfaran


Yuber wrote:
Isseyfaran wrote:
BeRzErKeR wrote:Second; I DO take Deff Dreads in my TAC list. I've said that. Maybe you missed it. Maybe you didn't read. Read again. My entire contention is that they AREN'T poor in a TAC competitive list, and are even BETTER against Paladins than against a lot of other lists.
YOUR EXPERIENCE counts for nothing, especially when you have no tournament record to speak of. So what we are left here is theoryhammering. But if you feel there is a strong need to prove me wrong on the table, Vassal anytime :-).


I suppose your experience counts for something?

LOL Vassal - warhammer40k played on paper.


Thanks for the compliment. I think my experience definitely counts for something :-) Much appreciated, though I ll still embarass you.

(1) He brought up his experience as a back up claim. I didn't
(2) If Warhammer played on Vassal is equivalent to playing them on paper, then Warhammer played on table is equivalent to playing on table cloth? Seriously, if you want to make silly comments like that, elaborate
(3) I suppose besides spewing random stuff, you are unable to contribute anything related to the topic? If no, what's your point of posting. Intention to troll?


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 02:59:13


Post by: thunderingjove


Isseyfaran wrote:

Thanks for the compliment. I think my experience definitely counts for something :-) Much appreciated, though I ll still embarass you.

(1) He brought up his experience as a back up claim. I didn't
(2) If Warhammer played on Vassal is equivalent to playing them on paper, then Warhammer played on table is equivalent to playing on table cloth? Seriously, if you want to make silly comments like that, elaborate
(3) I suppose besides spewing random stuff, you are unable to contribute anything related to the topic? If no, what's your point of posting. Intention to troll?


You have done a pretty good job of being offended by every reasonable, polite and otherwise forum-appropriate comment on here by several reasonable and polite posters, and thereupon you have insulted, derided and acted outraged.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 02:59:16


Post by: BeRzErKeR


Isseyfaran wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:Second; I DO take Deff Dreads in my TAC list. I've said that. Maybe you missed it. Maybe you didn't read. Read again. My entire contention is that they AREN'T poor in a TAC competitive list, and are even BETTER against Paladins than against a lot of other lists.
YOUR EXPERIENCE counts for nothing, especially when you have no tournament record to speak of. So what we are left here is theoryhammering. But if you feel there is a strong need to prove me wrong on the table, Vassal anytime :-).


My experience counts for exactly as much as yours. . . ie, yes, nothing. The MATH, however, as I have shown in this very thread, DOES count for something; and it says that if you're trying to stop Deff Dreads under a KFF, you're going to have quite a hard time.

If I see you on Vassal sometime, I'll take you up on that.


Isseyfaran wrote:
BeRzErKeR wrote:That's true, except that if it is sufficient for everyone to do their job at the end of the day, then it doesn't matter anymore
If your opponent has enough weapons to kill everything in your list, then yes, you lose. That's kind of a pointless thing to say, though. The Deff Dreads INCREASE the odds that your opponent WON'T have enough for 'everyone to do their job at the end of the day'. Which is, y'know, kind of the point..
Which is why you need to spread out your points more efficiently across your entire army list so that your opponent DOES NOT have enough weapons to take out everything you have before you take him out.


20 extra points will allow me to increase my target saturation by. . . exactly nothing. No, wait, I could take a single Kannon in a Big Gunz unit. . . IF I had an empty Heavy Support slot. I'd much rather have the 2 extra attacks than 20 points sitting around doing nothing.

Now, if I were to take the extra CCWs off both my Dreads I'd have 40 points, so I could take a single Warbuggy. Which is so totally unimportant that, once again, I'd rather have the extra attacks. And I repeat; you don't have enough weapons to take out 4 BWs and 2 Deff Dreads, all under a KFF, in two turns. Even if you got to shoot all of them every turn, you don't. I don't care what you're playing.

Isseyfaran wrote:
BeRzErKeR wrote:Over the course of 3 turns, my Dreads (which started off 12" onto the board) will move an average of 28 or 29 inches. Add in a 6" assault, and they have a threat range over those three turns of 46".
If you start 12" off the board, I m assuming you are talking about pitched battle, in which case no smart opponents will deploy directly opposite you. 46" don't get you into combat (more often than not) if opponent deploy across the corner.

BeRzErKeR wrote:My BWs can move 39" over three turns, but they don't even HAVE to use all that range. My units have a 28" assault radius out of those BWs, using Ghazzy's Waaagh; 13" BW move, 2" disembark range, 1" width of the base, 6" Fleet, 6" assault. In order to melta a BW, which you are only capable of doing on your second turn before I charge, you will have to move forward to meet me. If you do that, the Deff Dreads can reach you on my next turn.
So the key point is, the meltas don't even have to worry about both the Dread and the Wagon in the same turn. They can deal with the Wagons on turn 2, and the Dreads turn 3.


Not really. You castle up in the corner, I deploy in the middle of the board once I see what you're doing, trailing towards your side. On Turn 2, the wagons and the Deff Dreads are practically side-by-side still; the gap has only opened up by about 6", possibly, which is only a little more than the length of the battlewagon; so now the Dreads are alongside the rear bumpers, instead of the front bumpers. Then on turn 3 I move forward, disembark, Waagh, and charge; my infantry have moved about 50" from the board edge, give or take a couple, which is plenty to reach your castle. Your transports are blowing up from PK hits and your melta squads now have better things to worry about, like being pinned from falling out of an exploded tin can or being blocked into your parking lot (remember, you turtled in the opposite corner) by the multi-assaults.

If you send meltas forward to attack me while I'm still coming in, you get one shot and then the squad gets wiped. . . by the Deff Dreads, which are, remember, right there next to the Battlewagons. It isn't like I don't know that meltas can kill my vehicles; any squad you send forward to melta them dies immediately thereafter.


Isseyfaran wrote:
BeRzErKeR wrote:Target saturation, for a BW/Deff Dread list, is only important for ranged weapons; you cannot drop enough meltas on me Turn 2 to take out my vehicles, and that's really the only chance you get before the charge hits.
2 things wrong here.
(1) If your wagon can travel 26" over 2 turns, then meltas CAN reach you on turn 2.
(2) Range Weapon for e.g. S8 Missiles don't fire at AV14 wagons. If side armor is exposed, then same concept applies, deal with wagon - the faster threat, Dreads later. So both cases, there is minimal target saturation to speak of.


1. SOME meltas can. But, as I said, you CANNOT hit me with enough to kill 4 BWs and 2 Deff Dreads. And every squad you send will die on my following turn when whoever they did manage to dismount hits them together with the Deff Dreads, so if you feel like throwing away your army piecemeal like that, great.

2. BS4 missile launcher against a Deff Dread; 2/3 hit, 1/6 of hits glance, 1/3 of hits pen. 5/6 of glances score a worthless result (Shaken, Stunned, or Weapon Destroyed), 1/2 of the ones that DO accomplish something are ignored; 1/2 of pens score a worthless result (Shaken, Stunned, Weapon Destroyed), 1/2 are ignored. That means that a missile launcher has about a. . . 6% chance to disable a Deff Dread. Yeah, go ahead, shoot 'em at me. Unless you can throw 16 missiles in two turns, you probably aren't going to disable a single Dread; you'd need 32 shots to be reasonably sure of disabling both of them. And, remember, 1/3 ofthe time those disabled Dreads will only be Immobilized, and grot riggers make it very likely that they'll repair that in a turn or two and start coming at you again. The BWs, by the way, will each require a little over 5 melta shots to stop on average.

So to stop the transports and Dreads, in two turns you need to fire 32 missiles AND 20+ melta shots at half range or less. At that point you've managed to kill or immobilize all the BWs and Deff Dreads, and now you only need to worry about Ghazghkull, 14 fully-diversified nobz, a PK-equipped Big Mek, and between 30-40 Shoota Boyz (depending on how many died when the transports blew up), all of which will be charging you over the next turn or two.

So, no, my experience doesn't mean anything. But the math does, and the math says that only the very most dedicated shooting armies have a snowballs chance in hell of stopping this kind of army from getting off a pretty impressive assault wave. The best you'll be able to do is pick two or three of the 6 targets you have to take out; that will weaken the initial charge, and then you have to try and lessen it further by blocking with empty transports, bubblewrapping, all the usual anti-assault stuff. But killing them all with shooting is really not viable.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 03:33:47


Post by: Isseyfaran


thunderingjove wrote:You have done a pretty good job of being offended by every reasonable, polite and otherwise forum-appropriate comment on here by several reasonable and polite posters, and thereupon you have insulted, derided and acted outraged.
I supposed you have problem differentiating sarcasm and polite comments, SERIOUSLY? ;-)

BeRzErKeR wrote:My experience counts for exactly as much as yours. . . ie, yes, nothing.
Actually, I have attended more than 20 tournaments (big or small) since 5th Ed. What about yourself? Even so, I didn't even claim my experience counts for anything in our discussion. YOU DID.
So you ve just said your experience counts for nothing, but had just attempted to back up your own list with your own playing experience? LOL, counter intuitive?

BeRzErKeR wrote: The MATH, however, as I have shown in this very thread, DOES count for something; and it says that if you're trying to stop Deff Dreads under a KFF, you're going to have quite a hard time.

Except that your math is misleading, simply because there isn't only one melta, period.

BeRzErKeR wrote:If I see you on Vassal sometime, I'll take you up on that.

Don't need to make it so random, because chances are I ll NEVER see you. Just give me your nick, and a date and time. I ll post the BatReps soon after our games.

BeRzErKeR wrote:20 extra points will allow me to increase my target saturation by. . . exactly nothing. No, wait, I could take a single Kannon in a Big Gunz unit. . . IF I had an empty Heavy Support slot. I'd much rather have the 2 extra attacks than 20 points sitting around doing nothing.
LOL, realized how narrow your views are? Efficient point allocation is practised across the WHOLE army list. So more often than not, it not going to be JUST 20 points.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Now, if I were to take the extra CCWs off both my Dreads I'd have 40 points, so I could take a single Warbuggy. Which is so totally unimportant that, once again, I'd rather have the extra attacks. And I repeat; you don't have enough weapons to take out 4 BWs and 2 Deff Dreads, all under a KFF, in two turns. Even if you got to shoot all of them every turn, you don't. I don't care what you're playing.
Except that in 2k, SW (for e.g.) have 15 Missiles, 5-6 squads of GHs (each a melta) 4-6 MM Speeders, 3-4 Las/Plas Razorbacks.

10-12 Melta averages 7-8 hits, 3-4 unsaved by KFF, 2 pens (rounded down) on the AV14 goodness, and then +2 on the damage table (which means a roll of 2,3,4,5,6 ruins your day). That's not even factoring movement blocking by the speeders and rhino bodies

So before you spew anything, did you even do the math?

BeRzErKeR wrote:Not really. You castle up in the corner, I deploy in the middle of the board once I see what you're doing, trailing towards your side. On Turn 2, the wagons and the Deff Dreads are practically side-by-side still; the gap has only opened up by about 6", possibly, which is only a little more than the length of the battlewagon; so now the Dreads are alongside the rear bumpers, instead of the front bumpers. Then on turn 3 I move forward, disembark, Waagh, and charge; my infantry have moved about 50" from the board edge, give or take a couple, which is plenty to reach your castle. Your transports are blowing up from PK hits and your melta squads now have better things to worry about, like being pinned from falling out of an exploded tin can or being blocked into your parking lot (remember, you turtled in the opposite corner) by the multi-assaults.
IF you reacted to my deployment, it means I start first (barring you siezing). Between movement blocking by speeders and rhinos (split in 2 groups of 3s and 3s), i still have 2 full turns of shooting into your AV14 goodness. So whether you start first or 2nd, 2 full turns of shooting is guaranteed. Actually 3 turns, due to the wall of skimmers, and then rhino (to a lesser effect). Have fun with dodging skimmers.

And as the fifteen S8 missiles are close to useless against AV14 front, they can feel free to disturb your Dreads for 3 fulls shooting phase. Again, AV14 and AV12 don't provide for good target saturation.

BeRzErKeR wrote:If you send meltas forward to attack me while I'm still coming in, you get one shot and then the squad gets wiped. . . by the Deff Dreads, which are, remember, right there next to the Battlewagons. It isn't like I don't know that meltas can kill my vehicles; any squad you send forward to melta them dies immediately thereafter.
This is exactly the way melta squads should be used against battlewagon. Hit my speeders on 6+? Feel free. Hit my rhinos on 4+? Be my guest. The squad don't even have to disembark to fire. EVEN if you miraculously succeed in doing that, A squad of 5 GHs is a good trade for a single battlewagon + 20 boys stranded nowhere.


BeRzErKeR wrote:1. SOME meltas can. But, as I said, you CANNOT hit me with enough to kill 4 BWs and 2 Deff Dreads. And every squad you send will die on my following turn when whoever they did manage to dismount hits them together with the Deff Dreads, so if you feel like throwing away your army piecemeal like that, great.
As above, I can. :-) If throwing away part of my army leaves your boys stranded in the middle of nowhere, it is a good trade nevertheless.

OH, by the way, my math haven't even factored in Missiles into the side of your wagon - considering it's pitched battle deployment. So if presented with the chance, the missiles can either shoot the wagon first and deal with the dreads later, or if not presented with the chance (i.e facing AV14 instead of AV12 side), unload everything into the Dread.

BeRzErKeR wrote:2. BS4 missile launcher against a Deff Dread; 2/3 hit, 1/6 of hits glance, 1/3 of hits pen. 5/6 of glances score a worthless result (Shaken, Stunned, or Weapon Destroyed), 1/2 of the ones that DO accomplish something are ignored; 1/2 of pens score a worthless result (Shaken, Stunned, Weapon Destroyed), 1/2 are ignored. That means that a missile launcher has about a. . . 6% chance to disable a Deff Dread. Yeah, go ahead, shoot 'em at me. Unless you can throw 16 missiles in two turns, both of them will probably make it; you'd need 32 shots to be reasonably sure of disabling both of them. And, remember, 1/3 of those disabled Dreads will only be Immobilized, and grot riggers make it very likely that they'll repair that and start coming again. The BWs, by the way, will each require 8 melta shots to stop on average.
Math looks ok, except that I AM throwing more than 16 Missiles in 2 turns, LOL. Bear in mind again, you are talking about 2k, and my list is not an imaginary one. Those are lists seen in tournaments.
Your math of 8 melta to stop a single wagon is wrong though .


BeRzErKeR wrote:So, no, my experience doesn't mean anything. But the math does,
Yes, and math should mean something, except that your math are way off.

Seriously, go read Stelek vs Dash's BatRep. Dash had 3 wagons, trukks, and the game was 2k as well. It should help shape your distorted view.

And I m sorry that your thread on DeffDread has received zero replies so far


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 04:29:09


Post by: BeRzErKeR


My math was off originally, yes; forgot to include that Battlewagons are open-topped. I edited in the correct value 15 minutes before your reply.

Sure, take that list. 15 ML; let's assume they get to shoot every turn. Let's assume the MM Speeders get 2 turns of shooting, too; the GH meltasquads will only get 1 each, the Razors get to shoot twice. The MLs I assume are in Long Fang squads.

If you go first, I deployed just across from you; I'll charge on my second turn of movement, unless you manage to VERY successfully block in my BWs. If you go second, I'll have deployed in the middle with further to go; you'll get two turns of shooting anyway, so no matter what I have to weather those two turns.

Turn 1; 15 missiles probably take down a Deff Dread. MM speeders flit forwards and snipe at the BWs, probably killing one. Las/plas razorbacks accomplish nothing. GHs in rhinos advance; they're smart enough to keep out of Deffrolla and charge range, I assume.

Everything moves forward; 7 Nobz, who were either dismounted or dumped out to let the KFF Mek/Ghazghkull and their boyz jump back into a wagon, charge a squad of speeders after the advancing BWs deffrolla them. The speeders had to be within 12" to get those MM shots, so they're within charge and Deffrolla range; the Nobz are moving forwards at 6" + 6" charge, too, so they're keeping up with the Battlewagons so far. Everything is in the midfield. The Nobz get 2 S5 hits, a S7 hit and a S9 hit (rounding all fractions down) which gives a couple damage rolls; that squad of speeders isn't shooting next turn. The Deffrollas, since there were 3 of them, on average hit once, dish out 3-4 S10 hits, and seriously mess up another squad. Could have as many as 4 or as few as 0 speeders dead, depending on the dice, but likely 1-2.

Turn 2; 15 missiles get to decide what they're shooting at; the Deff Dread, the Nobz, or something else that falls out of a BW from melta fire. They can destroy the Dread, lay down some serious hurt on the Nobz, or annihilate something else that falls out, pick one; or they can spread their fire and hurt two things, but not kill them. Gray Hunters roll forward and smoke another BW, block the Ork advance with a wall of Rhinos, maybe charge the Nobz? Las/plas backs shoot at something, probably don't accomplish anything unless it's the Nobz, in which case they'll deal a few wounds and possible kill one or two.

Battlewagons Deffrolla 3 Rhinos, almost certainly wrecking or exploding them. If a Rhino explodes, that Battlewagon gets to carry on and passes the blockade. Everyone dumps out, lights up the Grey Hunters with shoota fire and then charges them and whatever tanks and/or speeders happen to be present in melee. Lots of death on both sides, but the Ork army will win because they got the charge and have Ghazghkull, a full Nobz squad, and either most of another Nobz squad or a Deff Dread involved. If Ghazghkull happened to blow past the blockage, instead of charging the Gray Hunters he Waaghs! and assaults the Long Fang Razorbacks in the back, smashing one of them open and bringing out the squishies inside.

Turn 3; Nothing can be predicted by this point. Most infantry are now locked in combat, half the Ork vehicles and a good number of the Space Wolf ones are dead. There's one massive melee wrapping up a few inches on the Space Wolf side of the half-way mark, a few speeders floating around, and Ghazghkull may be menacing one of the Long Fang squads or he might be in the thick of the big, messy multi-combat. Orks are going to win, but depleted; after that, how much they have left will determine what they do. If there's plenty of stuff still hanging around, they might try to wipe out the Long Fangs and speeders and win via massacre; if not, probably split up and try to grab objectives with surviving Boyz and scoring Nobz while Ghazzy and whatever non-scoring Nobz are still alive attack the Long Fangs.

But basically, it's not an easy fight for either side. The Space Wolves don't have enough firepower to kill all the transports quickly enough, and they're definitely going to end up in melee with some very hard Ork units; the Orks are quite vulnerable once their rides are destroyed. Hard to predict, but hey, I'm nothing if not self-confident, so I'll say I win because Orkz iz da meanest an' da greenest.

EDIT: Thanks for your condolences. I guess no-one else is interested in Deff Dreads; I shall remain a lone voice in the wilderness until everyone else finally recognizes my genius and the ineffable superiority of the Deff Dread.





Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 06:11:01


Post by: Isseyfaran


Wait, wait. Before I even comment on all those crap, i couldn't find in any part of your argument where you reinforce the fact that the Dread are a good saturation complement to the AV14 wagons. Even you have just agreed that the Missiles will not shoot at the AV14 front, but rather the Dread, since they will not do anything meaningful to the wagons more often than not.

So seriously, are you already changing your stance?

I am not even pointing the mistakes in your narration above yet (mostly relating to your movements, some math, etc). Just the above in bold first, because that was the main point of our contention. :-)


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 06:39:39


Post by: kaiservonhugal


Thankfully this Fresh-Faced New User's impact on this site is limited to just this topic.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 06:41:41


Post by: Yuber


kaiservonhugal wrote:Thankfully this Fresh-Faced New User's impact on this site is limited to just this topic.


He is just some lost Stelek Fanboi. Leave him be.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 06:43:22


Post by: Isseyfaran


kaiservonhugal wrote:Thankfully this Fresh-Faced New User's impact on this site is limited to just this topic.


Actually, I have a series of BatRep in the battle report section :-). You just haven't been reading enough.

Also, I have actually been around the forum and in the game longer than most people here, including you most probably. Not saying that that in any way counts for anything in my discussion here. I still back up my claims with explanations.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 06:47:15


Post by: kaiservonhugal


-Yawns dismissively at argumentative comments-

Credentials arent the issue. Anger management and good manners are.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 06:47:40


Post by: Isseyfaran


Yuber wrote:
kaiservonhugal wrote:Thankfully this Fresh-Faced New User's impact on this site is limited to just this topic.


He is just some lost Stelek Fanboi. Leave him be.


LOL. Why is it that when people have nothing better to contribute, they resort to "Stelek's fanboi". Besides mentioning Stelek vs Dash BatRep, have I mentioned anything else about Stelek? Why couldn't I be Dash's fanboi? Also, at least Stelek got some placing in the last 2 Nova. On the contrary, what have you achieved? Apart from spewing random silly things here?

Even Berserker is more useful to this discussion than you, even if some of his assumptions might be wrong. So seriously, get a life (together with kaiservonhugal )
:-)


kaiservonhugal wrote:-Yawn-

Credentials arent the issue. Anger management and good manners are.
LOL, you are right actually. Except that posting single silly comments like "YAWN" aren't acts of good manners. So who are you to preach of good manners? See the irony?


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 08:35:54


Post by: Jidmah


Isseyfaran wrote:DID you just said 0.69% IS decent chance. I mean, LOL?
You seem to be unable to both understand math and the english language.
To spell it out for you, again:
0.69% IS WRONG
Also "LOL" is not a punctuation.

It was more like the problem of your interpretation, and the way you like to paint beautiful pictures by providing misleading probabilities. If you are BOOSTING up your probability simply by firing your WHOLE army into a single pallie squad, then by all means. KILL one Please. EVen then, your probabilities are still pathetic (maybe excellent in your eyes, since even a 0.69% IS good probability to you, LOL).
Are you really that bad at reading comprehension and math?
I just proved, mathematically, that two units of shoota boyz have a one in nine chance to kill a paladin. Is it that hard to understand? Do you want me to draw a picture for you? "LOL"?

When you look at target saturation, you look at the overall list as a whole dude, not unit by unit or model by model. Wasting additional 20 points (in ANY CASE) when the point could be better spread and spent elsewhere is POOR saturation. In a TAC list, 2 extra DCCWs aren't as point efficient (taking into account the things they do and can do throughout a game of 5-7 turns) as 2 skorcha or 2 big shootas for example.
I don't think you know what "target saturation" means.

Except that they don't. I have already shown that GHaz and Kans are sufficient in takin down Paladins, and whose lists are efficient against all other codexes. The point of making a TAC list is to strike that balance.
Stating a claim without backing it up is not the same as showing something.

LOL, in one thread you are advocating against Ghaz, and now you are presenting a different argument.
I said the exact opposite, in both threads. You should try reading my posts again.

I explained to the OP that to deal with Paladins with orks, Ghaz is the most "EFFICIENT" choice.
THen comes all your crappy counter argument that the more efficient way to deal with them IS to shoot them with orks (and even continue staying away from them - in another thread).

Note : My stand is Ghaz is the most efficient candidate for this job than any other units, NOT Ghaz is > Ghaz + loota + shoota + DeffRolla combined. I am not even debating on tactics OR ways to execute your moves (like loading ghaz into wagons, deploying lootas into cover, etc etc).

At the end of the day, you are telling us, do EVERYTHING of the above - tank shock, shoot them, throw ghaz into them.
As you are unable to understand any math more complex than division, I'll keep it simple:

Ghaghkull has 12 attacks during his Waagh! (7+5). He will hit Paladins on a 3+, that's two out of three. So if everything goes according to averages, you hit 8 paladins. He wounds five out of six times, equals 7. If none of them have swords or a warding stave, meaning 5++ only, you kill two out of three, for a total of five. Then the other five+character will kill Ghazghkull during the third round, before he strikes.

Apparently your opponent now concedes the game because you're so awesome, but us other players will probably have to continue handling an fully capable deathstar.

LOL, seriously, who doesn't know throwing everything of your army (including Ghaz himself) is > throwing Ghaz in alone in the equation, ALL else being equal? I mean, what's your point? LOL.
At the end of the day, Ghaz is the one who makes the most impact, point for point, damage for damage. Shootas, lootas, deffrollas are just chipping in because they have nothing better to do. If there is a PsyDread somewhere, the wagons and lootas are better off targetting him than the Paladins.
I already have proven that lootaz should not be shooting dreads. You might as well claim the sky to be green.
If have koptaz and rokkit buggies to do that.
Besides, do you ram 3/4 battlewagon into one dread? It takes quite some time to set that ram up, you know,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Isseyfaran wrote:
kaiservonhugal wrote:Thankfully this Fresh-Faced New User's impact on this site is limited to just this topic.


Actually, I have a series of BatRep in the battle report section :-). You just haven't been reading enough.

Also, I have actually been around the forum and in the game longer than most people here, including you most probably. Not saying that that in any way counts for anything in my discussion here. I still back up my claims with explanations.

Actually, with your attitude and language, I wouldn't want to read your battlereports, no matter how good your or they are.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 08:51:41


Post by: thunderingjove


Re: the new guys, as Ms. Garrison taught us, it's not enough to have an opinion, you have to be a d*ck about it too.

As to failure to grasp sarcasm, ect.: the Internet is a poor place to impart these tones, but basic hostility has no such barrier.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 10:13:39


Post by: Isseyfaran


Jidmah wrote:unable to both understand math and the english language.
To spell it out for you, again:
0.69% IS WRONG
Also "LOL" is not a punctuation.
Now I understand what you are trying to say. Except that your comment of :-
Jidmah wrote:Just for comparison, your claimed 1/144 would be 0.69%.
isn't even a properly constructed sentence, and seriously leaves room for multiple interpretation. So if you want people to understand you, then use proper English. Being a German does not excuse you from that.



Jidmah wrote:Are you really that bad at reading comprehension and math?
I just proved, mathematically, that two units of shoota boyz have a one in nine chance to kill a paladin. Is it that hard to understand? Do you want me to draw a picture for you? "LOL"?
Actually, you haven't. So please go ahead, draw your picture.

And to fast forward abit, 1/9 chance is good prob. to you. Seriously?

Jidmah wrote:I don't think you know what "target saturation" means.
Or could it be you don't understand "target saturation in its English sense?

Jidmah wrote:Stating a claim without backing it up is not the same as showing something.
All the math on Ghaz means nothing? And I am pretty sure it wasn't as pathetic as your 1/9 chance.
And a little bit more on this :-
So assuming you are right, 8 out of 9 times your shoota boys are not going to kill a single paladin outright, leave the paladins floating around with one wound, whom Ghaz is going to instant kill them ANYWAY. OF COURSE, the whole point of my argument is not that shoota boys should instead do NOTHING, just that Paladins might be the last in their list of targets in order of priority.



Jidmah wrote:
Isseyfaran wrote:LOL, in one thread you are advocating against Ghaz, and now you are presenting a different argument.
I said the exact opposite, in both threads. You should try reading my posts again.
REALLY?

Jidmah wrote:The only strategy against paladins (unless you can produce ridiculous amounts of tankshocks) a is to move away from them and shoot them dead. Holocaust, three strom bolters and two psycannons can cause nowhere near the damage you cause to yourself when charging those paladins.
WOW.


Jidmah wrote:As you are unable to understand any math more complex than division, I'll keep it simple:

Ghaghkull has 12 attacks during his Waagh! (7+5). He will hit Paladins on a 3+, that's two out of three. So if everything goes according to averages, you hit 8 paladins. He wounds five out of six times, equals 7. If none of them have swords or a warding stave, meaning 5++ only, you kill two out of three, for a total of five. Then the other five+character will kill Ghazghkull during the third round, before he strikes.

Apparently your opponent now concedes the game because you're so awesome, but us other players will probably have to continue handling an fully capable deathstar.
APPARENTLY, you missed my comment about sending reinforcement into the combat assisting Ghaz once his 2++ wears off (i.e. 3rd round if that's what your "3rd round" means). NOW, be good and go read them again before you attempt your math again.

And one moment you talk about 5 Paladins, the other moment you speak of 10 Paladins. Seriously, WOW. Doesn't matter though, since my math that Ghaz has an above average chance in winning combat for the duration of his waagh was based on 10 Paladins.

Jidmah wrote:I already have proven that lootaz should not be shooting dreads. You might as well claim the sky to be green.
And I have already explained why you should, given that the expected returnsyou gain by blowing up the dread FAR exceeds that of killing a single Palading outright.

You might as well repeat that 10 more times and we can go around in circles.

Jidmah wrote:Actually, with your attitude and language, I wouldn't want to read your battlereports, no matter how good your or they are.
Actually, did I even invite you to read my BatReps? LOL


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 11:07:23


Post by: rabidaskal


This is pointless, everyone just hit the mod alert button.

It was an interesting thread before the new guy derailed it with his lack of respect and common decency.

I find it hard to believe you're from Singapore, the gamers I've met from there are usually very polite and well-mannered.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 11:21:37


Post by: reds8n




Warnings handed out to various members.

Please endeavour to stay polite when dealing with other forum members.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 11:27:11


Post by: Isseyfaran


rabidaskal wrote:

It was an interesting thread before the new guy derailed it
Really? Presenting well thought out facts IS considered derailing the thread? Then can you explain how does comments like "Yawn" add anything useful to the thread?

If you think there is any part of my argument that isn't logical or is obviously wrong, you are free to pick it out :-).


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 12:19:34


Post by: BeRzErKeR


Isseyfaran wrote:Wait, wait. Before I even comment on all those crap, i couldn't find in any part of your argument where you reinforce the fact that the Dread are a good saturation complement to the AV14 wagons. Even you have just agreed that the Missiles will not shoot at the AV14 front, but rather the Dread, since they will not do anything meaningful to the wagons more often than not.

So seriously, are you already changing your stance?

I am not even pointing the mistakes in your narration above yet (mostly relating to your movements, some math, etc). Just the above in bold first, because that was the main point of our contention. :-)


If the only two weapons under consideration are missiles and melta weapons, then in that highly limited and unrealistic depiction, yes, the Deff Dreads are a bad complement to Battlewagons from the perspective of target saturation.

However, this is a TAC list, and against lascannons, railguns, Eldar or DE Lance weapons, and ordnance, no, the Deff Dreads ARE a good saturation complement to Battlewagons. Furthermore, even WITH only meltas and missile launchers present the Deff Dreads provide target saturation, although not with the Battlewagons; rather, they force the missile launchers to choose between blowing up the units that fall out of the battlewagons, and shooting them. If you shot 15 missile launchers at a 7-man Nobz squad, you'd probably wipe it out (average of 5-6 wounds, all causing ID), but doing that means you're letting the Dreads close in.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 13:00:01


Post by: Jidmah


isn't even a properly constructed sentence, and seriously leaves room for multiple interpretation. So if you want people to understand you, then use proper English. Being a German does not excuse you from that.

Said the person using "LOL" every line.

For comparison, (So you can compare your number)
your claimed 1/144 (the probability you have claimed to be right)
would be 0.69%. (the result of that fraction)

I'm pretty sure, that's a proper English sentence. Maybe you are confused by the subject and object being numbers? I even went through the trouble of using multiple spell and grammar checks, as well as translators, and none had any trouble understanding it. Besides, you are not excused form acting like an idiot, no matter what country you are from.

Jidmah wrote:Are you really that bad at reading comprehension and math?
I just proved, mathematically, that two units of shoota boyz have a one in nine chance to kill a paladin. Is it that hard to understand? Do you want me to draw a picture for you? "LOL"?
Actually, you haven't. So please go ahead, draw your picture.

And to fast forward abit, 1/9 chance is good prob. to you. Seriously?

You said that lootaz should shoot at psyflemen, who have less than 1/9 chance to destroy it. Aren't you a little inconsequential here? Not to mention that you failed to understand that the probability will increases once the paladins start taking wounds.

As you are trolling and not interested in actually understanding anything, I will refrain from drawing a picture.

Or could it be you don't understand "target saturation in its English sense?

So tell me, oh master of all, what does target saturation mean. Please, don't forget the highly important role point values play in it.

All the math on Ghaz means nothing? And I am pretty sure it wasn't as pathetic as your 1/9 chance.
And a little bit more on this :-
So assuming you are right, 8 out of 9 times your shoota boys does not kill a single paladin outright, leave the paladins floating around with one wound, whom Ghaz is going to instant kill them ANYWAY. OF COURSE, the whole point of my argument is not that shoota boys should instead do NOTHING, just that Paladins might be the last in their list of targets in order of priority.

Right, Ghaz is going to EVAPORIZE the paladins when he touches them. All of them! And he is always going to kill the wounded ones!
How could I not see it.

Jidmah wrote:
Isseyfaran wrote:LOL, in one thread you are advocating against Ghaz, and now you are presenting a different argument.
I said the exact opposite, in both threads. You should try reading my posts again.
REALLY?

Jidmah wrote:The only strategy against paladins (unless you can produce ridiculous amounts of tankshocks) a is to move away from them and shoot them dead. Holocaust, three strom bolters and two psycannons can cause nowhere near the damage you cause to yourself when charging those paladins.
WOW.

Weren't you rambling on about how you don't have to explain every detail? In addition, do you field Ghaz in a Kan wall? A Green Tide? Biker list? KoS?
Oh right, you are going to toss "TAC" around again, like it means something.

APPARENTLY, you missed my comment about sending reinforcement into the combat assisting Ghaz once his 2++ wears off (i.e. 3rd round if that's what your "3rd round" means). NOW, be good and go read them again before you attempt your math again.

What reinforcements? Boyz? Nobz? After we already established that five paladins will make piecemeal out of them, even if accompanied by Ghazzy?

And one moment you talk about 5 Paladins, the other moment you speak of 10 Paladins. Seriously, WOW. Doesn't matter though, since my math that Ghaz has an above average chance in winning combat for the duration of his waagh was based on 10 Paladins.

Yeah, you know, some person said this thread was about 10 paladins, not five, so I continued talking about ten paladins. Oh wait, it was you!

And I have already explained why you should, given that the expected returnsyou gain by blowing up the dread FAR exceeds that of killing a single Palading outright.

That's only if you get a return, which is quite unlikely. Every single wound improves the probability of killing paladins with further non-instant death wounds, while any shot at the dread not leading to at least weapon destroyed do next to nothing.

You might as well repeat that 10 more times and we can go around in circles.

You keep bringing it up, not me. I have other tools than lootaz to handle psyflemen in my list, so I'm not losing anything by pointing those lootaz at the paladins. If you don't, you should ask yourself whether your army is really able to take on all commers.

Actually, did I even invite you to read my BatReps? LOL

LOL!

TL;DR:
You're a troll.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 13:05:10


Post by: Isseyfaran


BeRzErKeR wrote:If the only two weapons under consideration are missiles and melta weapons, then in that highly limited and unrealistic depiction, yes, the Deff Dreads are a bad complement to Battlewagons from the perspective of target saturation.

However, this is a TAC list, and against lascannons, railguns, Eldar or DE Lance weapons, and ordnance, no, the Deff Dreads ARE a good saturation complement to Battlewagons.

Autocannons, Missiles, Lascannons etc DO NOT shoot at AV14 because they are simply inefficient in doing that. Meltas are there for this role. And by mentioning these 3, I think we ve covered 60-70% of all possible candidates for discussion.

DE/Eldar lance weapon - YES. But due to the sheer speed of their army, they can avoid your DeffDread for almost the whole of the game. And you know what make things worse? Your list of :- 4 BWs, 2 squads of Nobz, 2 squads of Boyz, Ghazzy, a KFF Big Mek, and 2 Dreads don't even have long range shooting to take down those efficiently spammed AV10 skimmers. This means you will be chasing them down forever, while they shoot you from far. So actually, your list is a terrible match up against DE or even Eldar.

Ordnance? You use them as anti veh? Ok well, I don't

BeRzErKeR wrote:WITH only meltas and missile launchers present the Deff Dreads provide target saturation, although not with the Battlewagons; rather, they force the missile launchers to choose between blowing up the units that fall out of the battlewagons, and shooting them. If you shot 15 missile launchers at a 7-man Nobz squad, you'd probably wipe it out (average of 5-6 wounds, all causing ID), but doing that means you're letting the Dreads close in.
IF that IS target saturation, then hell, even boys can fit the criteria because Long Fangs can fire blast templates into them. LOL



Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 13:15:10


Post by: MFletch


Isseyfaran wrote:
Jidmah wrote:I don't think you know what "target saturation" means.
Or could it be you don't understand "target saturation in its English sense?
Is this an English phrase? Poor show old chap attacking one's speech when using short hand. It is just not cricket.
I could accept saturation attack but this is probably what neither of you mean.

On the topic if your grammar is not perfect do not complain about language: people in glass houses and all that, old boy.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 13:21:36


Post by: Isseyfaran


MFletch wrote:
Isseyfaran wrote:
Jidmah wrote:I don't think you know what "target saturation" means.
Or could it be you don't understand "target saturation in its English sense?
Is this an English phrase? Poor show old chap attacking one's speech when using short hand. It is just not cricket.
I could accept saturation attack but this is probably what neither of you mean.

On the topic if your grammar is not perfect do not complain about language: people in glass houses and all that, old boy.


Young kid, we were talking about the phrase "Target saturation". So please enlighten everyone which part of my sentence "Or could it be you don't understand "target saturation in its English sense"
requires "target saturation" to be changed to "saturation attack" so as to be grammatically correct.
In other words, how is

Or could it be you don't understand "target saturation in its English sense

any more correct than

Or could it be you don't understand "saturation attack" in its English sense

?

Nice try, but I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 13:34:14


Post by: cgmckenzie


MFletch wrote:Is this an English phrase? Poor show old chap attacking one's speech when using short hand. It is just not cricket.
I could accept saturation attack but this is probably what neither of you mean.

On the topic if your grammar is not perfect do not complain about language: people in glass houses and all that, old boy.


I pictured you wearing a top hat and monocle while typing this, holding a fresh cup of tea one hand. Really disappointed you didn't go with 'old bean' at the end, though

OT- I have never seen paladins running in larger than 5-7, probably because they are massive points sink. I figure WAAAGH!!!ing ghazzy into them accompanied by some boyz/meganobs w/ cybork after gratuitous amounts of shooting should be enough to deal with them. If it isn't I still have the rest of my army to grab objectives while I throw wave after wave of gretchin at them to keep them bogged down

-cgmckenzie


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 13:36:22


Post by: Jidmah


MFletch wrote:
Isseyfaran wrote:
Jidmah wrote:I don't think you know what "target saturation" means.
Or could it be you don't understand "target saturation in its English sense?
Is this an English phrase? Poor show old chap attacking one's speech when using short hand. It is just not cricket.
I could accept saturation attack but this is probably what neither of you mean.

On the topic if your grammar is not perfect do not complain about language: people in glass houses and all that, old boy.


Just so you actually get an actually useful answer.

Saturation:

[as modifier] to a very full extent, especially beyond the point regarded as necessary or desirable:


Target saturation simply means providing more targets of one type than the opponent can efficiently take down. To archive this you stack units which are most efficiently taken down by the same type of gun and must be taken down at the same time. Usually these are units with the same statline/AV, but things like nob bikers and battlewagons fill a similar role - both are weak against high strength shots, and both don't care much about low strength.

For some reason our LOLkopta here seems to be unter the impression that point values and equipment have anything to do with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
cgmckenzie wrote:OT- I have never seen paladins running in larger than 5-7, probably because they are massive points sink. I figure WAAAGH!!!ing ghazzy into them accompanied by some boyz/meganobs w/ cybork after gratuitous amounts of shooting should be enough to deal with them. If it isn't I still have the rest of my army to grab objectives while I throw wave after wave of gretchin at them to keep them bogged down

-cgmckenzie


As I often play 2k point games, meeting 10 Paladins isn't that rare for me. Some people seem to like needing nothing but a single briefcase to bring their army, while I'm packed with bags.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 13:57:32


Post by: Green is Best!


Well, despite this feeding frenzy, I have only faced this list once. It was a nightmare to kill these things. If I recall, it was an 1850 point tournament and he had 2 units of 10 for 21 models total? (maybe 22).

Contrary to Issey, I ran a SAG at a tournament because I like to play different lists. I also had kannons and zap guns. Once I saw this footslogging list, I parked all of my trucks and proceeded to just shoot one unit to death. Granted, it took my entire army 2 or 3 turns of literally shooting everything I had to kill one unit. And even then, my opponent rolled an abnormally large amount of 1's.

And, I still think the SAG is better than most people give it creidt. It averages an S7 large template that negates termie saves. Yes, you may get some unpredictable results, but this is a game. Its meant to be fun.

And, if I had to tailor a list to fight paladins, I would fill 3 battlewagons with flash gitz along with a SAG and KFF. It may not be the best unit, but it would make for an interesting game.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 14:04:31


Post by: MakersHitstheMark


Dodgywop wrote:I do pretty well when I shoot them.

Lootas do some good. Burnas in a wagon will help to.


I'm not a fan of lootas because I'm constantly hearing that to play without them is folly so I'm building my lists to exclude them. However in this scenario I would run a wagon with 15 burnas and a wagon of boys or nobs with a painboy. dismount the nobs or boys. light them up with the burnas (15 templates across the unit ought to get some of them.) and then charge with the boys so that they don't dismantle your wagon on their turn.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 14:07:33


Post by: Isseyfaran


Jidmah wrote:
Isseyfaran wrote:isn't even a properly constructed sentence, and seriously leaves room for multiple interpretation. So if you want people to understand you, then use proper English. Being a German does not excuse you from that.

Said the person using "LOL" every line.
I didnt know adding a "LOL" or emoticons at the end of a sentence makes the sentence any less correct grammatically. Did you learn this somewhere?

Jidmah wrote:For comparison, (So you can compare your number)
your claimed 1/144 (the probability you have claimed to be right)
would be 0.69%. (the result of that fraction)

I'm pretty sure, that's a proper English sentence. Maybe you are confused by the subject and object being numbers? I even went through the trouble of using multiple spell and grammar checks, as well as translators,
The correct version should be :
your claimed probability of 1/144 would be 0.69%. I have never seen any math textbook write the way you wrote. Maybe Germans learn it the special way?

Jidmah wrote:and none had any trouble understanding it.
You are assuming everyone bothers to read your crap (especially when no one has responded to that post of yours yet), which is a pretty hilarious assumption to me.

Jidmah wrote:Besides, you are not excused form acting like an idiot, no matter what country you are from.
Nice try with your personal attack. You have just succeeded in showing me how low you can be. Congrats . It just makes me despise you even more.

Jidmah wrote:You said that lootaz should shoot at psyflemen, who have less than 1/9 chance to destroy it. Aren't you a little inconsequential here? Not to mention that you failed to understand that the probability will increases once the paladins start taking wounds.
And did you miss (YET AGAIN - the third time) my point with regards to "EXPECTED RETURN"? Or were you merely acting dumb?

Jidmah wrote:As you are trolling and not interested in actually understanding anything, I will refrain from drawing a picture.
Trolling? You said if I don't understand, you will draw a picture to aid my understanding. YOU OFFERED it yourself, and now you are yet again changing your stance (just like how you change your stance regarding GHaz).


Jidmah wrote:So tell me, oh master of all, what does target saturation mean. Please, don't forget the highly important role point values play in it.


I illustrated briefly what target saturation is all about, while you dismissed it completely with a plain sentence of yours without backing yourself up with something else. Isn't the onus now on you to explain to us what you think it should otherwise be? Seriously, quit your jokes :-).
Jidmah wrote:
Isseyfaran wrote:When you look at target saturation, you look at the overall list as a whole dude, not unit by unit or model by model. Wasting additional 20 points (in ANY CASE) when the point could be better spread and spent elsewhere is POOR saturation. In a TAC list, 2 extra DCCWs aren't as point efficient (taking into account the things they do and can do throughout a game of 5-7 turns) as 2 skorcha or 2 big shootas for example.
I don't think you know what "target saturation" means.


Jidmah wrote:Weren't you rambling on about how you don't have to explain every detail? In addition, do you field Ghaz in a Kan wall? A Green Tide? Biker list? KoS?
Oh right, you are going to toss "TAC" around again, like it means something.
So I see. Then what does only strategy against paladins mean?
OH, i forgot, you aren't even particular about English, and don't even care if people understand you.

Jidmah wrote:What reinforcements? Boyz? Nobz? After we already established that five paladins will make piecemeal out of them, even if accompanied by Ghazzy?
A squad of 6-7 diversified nobs + Ghaz gets trumped by 5 Paladins? MAYBE I am missing something here. Show me your math.

Jidmah wrote:Yeah, you know, some person said this thread was about 10 paladins, not five, so I continued talking about ten paladins. Oh wait, it was you!
And the person who changed my 10 man Paladin squad to 5 to illustrate his shoota's "awesomeness" is...? No wait, it can't be you! It must have been the troll. And depending on which assumption is more favorable to his argument, he selects either of them, so that we are always arguing on a different basis.

Jidmah wrote: I have other tools than lootaz to handle psyflemen in my list, so I'm not losing anything by pointing those lootaz at the paladins. If you don't, you should ask yourself whether your army is really able to take on all commers.
And that is?


Jidmah wrote:TL;DR:
I am such a troll, assuming that people actually care if I read their BatRep
Edited that for you




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote:Target saturation simply means providing more targets of one type than the opponent can efficiently take down. To archive this you stack units which are most efficiently taken down by the same type of gun and must be taken down at the same time. Usually these are units with the same statline/AV, but things like nob bikers and battlewagons fill a similar role - both are weak against high strength shots, and both don't care much about low strength.

For some reason our LOLkopta here seems to be unter the impression that point values and equipment have anything to do with it.


I bet when you learnt alphabets in school, you learnt A-L, without learning S-Z

Your concept of target saturation is largely correct, except that you don't grasp the full gist of it.

Point values do matter because target saturation means providing more targets (and this requires points) of the SIMILAR type, putting your opponent in a dilemma of what to shoot at first. SPending points inefficiently on a single body/target takes away from you the points and prevents you from "buying" more goodness of the same type.

Buying 40-50 points worth of upgrade on each battlewagon when these points could be added up to purchase one more AV14 goodness is an example of poor target saturation, especially when the upgrades do not increase the survivability of the wagons. That is not to say we should field a naked wagon, but instead purchase JUST ENOUGH upgrades for the wagon to do its job.

In our case of the Dread, 2 DeffDread with 2 DCCW + 2 Skorcha is more often than not going to achieve the same thing as a deffdread armed with 4DCCW. So most of the time, the additional 20 points spent for the upgrade is just not going to serve it's purpose at all,.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 14:58:17


Post by: BeRzErKeR


Isseyfaran wrote:
Autocannons, Missiles, Lascannons etc DO NOT shoot at AV14 because they are simply inefficient in doing that. Meltas are there for this role. And by mentioning these 3, I think we ve covered 60-70% of all possible candidates for discussion.

DE/Eldar lance weapon - YES. But due to the sheer speed of their army, they can avoid your DeffDread for almost the whole of the game. And you know what make things worse? Your list of :- 4 BWs, 2 squads of Nobz, 2 squads of Boyz, Ghazzy, a KFF Big Mek, and 2 Dreads don't even have long range shooting to take down those efficiently spammed AV10 skimmers. This means you will be chasing them down forever, while they shoot you from far. So actually, your list is a terrible match up against DE or even Eldar.

Ordnance? You use them as anti veh? Ok well, I don't

BeRzErKeR wrote:WITH only meltas and missile launchers present the Deff Dreads provide target saturation, although not with the Battlewagons; rather, they force the missile launchers to choose between blowing up the units that fall out of the battlewagons, and shooting them. If you shot 15 missile launchers at a 7-man Nobz squad, you'd probably wipe it out (average of 5-6 wounds, all causing ID), but doing that means you're letting the Dreads close in.
IF that IS target saturation, then hell, even boys can fit the criteria because Long Fangs can fire blast templates into them. LOL


I never mentioned autocannons; and I agree, missiles usually don't shoot at AV 14.

Now we get into the realm of comparing experience again. I can't provide any math here; all I can say is that, in my experience, people commonly do fire both lascannons and ordnance weapons at my Battlewagons, as well as at my Deff Dreads. So, yes, my Deff Dreads are spreading their fire further out, forcing them to make choices. That's what target saturation is.

Pretty much any vehicle that fires at my Battlewagons, with the sole exception of long-ranged artillery, is within charge range next turn; remember, 28". I don't have to '[chase] them down forever', they get one shot and then they get charged. I'm fine with that.

And yes; if your opponent is relying mainly on ML for anti-armor use (pretty dumb opponent, but that's another point entirely. ), then Boyz can and do provide target saturation for your armor. If they're shooting frag at infantry, they're not shooting krak at tanks. Whether something provides target saturation doesn't depend solely on what it is, it depends on a lot of factors; the tactical situation, the weapon, the unit firing and the potential targets. Sometimes my opponent might refuse to shoot at my Deff Dreads no matter what I do; sometimes they feel compelled to shoot EVERYTHING at a single Deff Dread, because they need it dead before the next turn. It's not at all a cut-and-dried situation, and you can't make a straightforward yes/no decision based on theoryhammer. I've found it to work well, and I can present some math that backs up my experience. That's what I've been saying.

I've read the one battlereport you've got done; you do seem to be a pretty good Tau player. As a dedicated Warboss, I confess that I hate those damn JSJ suits.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 15:02:39


Post by: Jidmah


Isseyfaran wrote:The correct version should be :
your claimed probability of 1/144 would be 0.69%. I have never seen any math textbook write the way you wrote. Maybe Germans learn it the special way?

How should I know? I went to school in Detroit, Michigan.

Trolling? You said if I don't understand, you will draw a picture to aid my understanding.

Would you care if I did draw one? No. Did you fail to spot sarcasm? Yes.
If there were any hint of you accepting anything other than your own opinion, I might actually go through the trouble of making the picture, even though I wasn't serious about it in the first place.
However, as all you do is being unfriendly and belittling anyone with a different opinion, there really isn't much point in it.

I illustrated briefly what target saturation is all about, while you dismissed it completely with a plain sentence of yours without backing yourself up with something else. Isn't the onus now on you to explain to us what you think it should otherwise be? Seriously, quit your jokes :-).

Yeah, you said some stuff about points and equipment. If you add a battlewagon without upgrades but filled with nobz to a list of battlewagons, you increase your target saturation, even though you are missing at least a deff rolla and a big shoota to make that battlewagon efficient.
In the same way, deff dreads add target saturation to a kan wall. Both deff dreads and kanz are shot at by the exact same weapons, and your opponent can't possibly kill all the kanz before the deff dreads reach close combat. Whether you sunk way too much points in either unit has absolutely no bearing on the amount of target saturation, but only on the efficiency of your army.

When you look at target saturation, you look at the overall list as a whole dude, not unit by unit or model by model. Wasting additional 20 points (in ANY CASE) when the point could be better spread and spent elsewhere is POOR saturation. In a TAC list, 2 extra DCCWs aren't as point efficient (taking into account the things they do and can do throughout a game of 5-7 turns) as 2 skorcha or 2 big shootas for example.

How do DCCW or shootas change what guns are going to shoot it? A dread with a burna is more efficient than a dread loades with CCW, we already agreed on that. However, this has no impact at all on when your opponent is going to shoot it with what weapons. No matter it's loadout, a deff dread stays a unit your opponent does not want to reach close combat, while never being more dangerous at range than kanz.

I'd also like to point out that you keep dodging the question of explaining what you think target saturation is, like a little child who got caught lying.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 15:21:20


Post by: Isseyfaran


Jidmah wrote:
Would you care if I did draw one? No. Did you fail to spot sarcasm? Yes.
If there were any hint of you accepting anything other than your own opinion, I might actually go through the trouble of making the picture, even though I wasn't serious about it in the first place.
However, as all you do is being unfriendly and belittling anyone with a different opinion, there really isn't much point in it.
I actually belittled the opinions (being objective), rather than belittle the person (personal). It was just some people having too high an ego and refusing to accept the fact that they were indeed wrong.
If it's sarcasm, then I am not interested in them, and you ve have just admitted that you are trolling.

Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, you said some stuff about points and equipment. If you add a battlewagon without upgrades but filled with nobz to a list of battlewagons, you increase your target saturation, even though you are missing at least a deff rolla and a big shoota to make that battlewagon efficient.
Which is why I mentioned upgrading the wagon JUST enough for it to do its job. MAN.... are you reading?

Jidmah wrote:In the same way, deff dreads add target saturation to a kan wall. Both deff dreads and kanz are shot at by the exact same weapons, and your opponent can't possibly kill all the kanz before the deff dreads reach close combat. Whether you sunk way too much points in either unit has absolutely no bearing on the amount of target saturation, but only on the efficiency of your army.
Like I have just said. the 20 points, together with point savings somewhere else, could very well buy you ANOTHER target of similar type, and increase the NUMBER of your "targets". Seriously, this isn't hard to understand.


Jidmah wrote:
How do DCCW or shootas change what guns are going to shoot it? A dread with a burna is more efficient than a dread loades with CCW, we already agreed on that. However, this has no impact at all on when your opponent is going to shoot it with what weapons. No matter it's loadout, a deff dread stays a unit your opponent does not want to reach close combat, while never being more dangerous at range than kanz.
I m not saying it does. BUt as I have said, target saturation isn't about just the selection of your opponent's weapons. The quantity/number of your targets plays a part too. So wasting point IS going to affect target saturation simply because it takes away point which you could have otherwise use to buy 1 MORE target (greater quantity).

Jidmah wrote:I'd also like to point out that you keep dodging the question of explaining what you think target saturation is, like a little child who got caught lying.
Erm, are you blind??




Automatically Appended Next Post:
BeRzErKeR wrote:
Now we get into the realm of comparing experience again. I can't provide any math here; all I can say is that, in my experience, people commonly do fire both lascannons and ordnance weapons at my Battlewagons, as well as at my Deff Dreads. So, yes, my Deff Dreads are spreading their fire further out, forcing them to make choices. That's what target saturation is.
I agree that the poor decisions of your opponents definitely do not help to reinforce my argument. What more can I say?

BeRzErKeR wrote:Pretty much any vehicle that fires at my Battlewagons, with the sole exception of long-ranged artillery, is within charge range next turn; remember, 28". I don't have to '[chase] them down forever', they get one shot and then they get charged. I'm fine with that.
Im fine with sacrificing some GHs and speeders to take down a wagon, leave your boys stranded and slogging, and then torrent them with mass missiles. I ve said that before already.

BeRzErKeR wrote:And yes; if your opponent is relying mainly on ML for anti-armor use (pretty dumb opponent, but that's another point entirely. ), then Boyz can and do provide target saturation for your armor. If they're shooting frag at infantry, they're not shooting krak at tanks.
And how does this support your stand that the Dreads are a good complement to the rest of your army (in terms of target saturation), when even boys are doing the job? So why not I take more boys than the dread for target saturation then?

But back to the main point of discussion : Is your Dread a good complement to your wagons in terms of target saturation? Isn't the answer no? (Except if you play against nice opponents who will actually shoot Lascs into AV14s. and uses ordnance for anti tank, even when they know the odds are against them).


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 15:54:13


Post by: BeRzErKeR


Isseyfaran wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:
Now we get into the realm of comparing experience again. I can't provide any math here; all I can say is that, in my experience, people commonly do fire both lascannons and ordnance weapons at my Battlewagons, as well as at my Deff Dreads. So, yes, my Deff Dreads are spreading their fire further out, forcing them to make choices. That's what target saturation is.
I agree that the poor decisions of your opponents definitely do not help to reinforce my argument. What more can I say?

BeRzErKeR wrote:Pretty much any vehicle that fires at my Battlewagons, with the sole exception of long-ranged artillery, is within charge range next turn; remember, 28". I don't have to '[chase] them down forever', they get one shot and then they get charged. I'm fine with that.
Im fine with sacrificing some GHs and speeders to take down a wagon, leave your boys stranded and slogging, and then torrent them with mass missiles. I've said that before already.


Then we both get what we want! Hurray!

The more decisions I force my opponent to make, the higher the chances that one or more of them won't be optimal. Even slim chances are worth taking, in that regard; same principle as torrent-of-fire shooting on Terminators. Make them roll enough dice, eventually they'll roll some 1s. Make them pick enough targets, eventually they'll pick wrong. It doesn't happen often, at least not against good players, but it does certainly happen.

In addition, please note that you're NOT '[leaving my] boyz stranded and slogging in the middle of nowhere', you're leaving them on foot one or at most two turns away from assaulting you; Boyz with Ghazzy's Waagh! have an 18" assault range, so even if you're in a tank backed up against the board edge you have to kill them before they've advanced ~24" or they'll reach you in one turn; and 24" is passed in one turn's movement..So now that's another unit you have to kill; instead of the BW, you have to divert fire to kill the Boyz, which is easier but does still spread your weaponry out. Yes, you're making progress, but you've still got problems.

Isseyfaran wrote:
BeRzErKeR wrote:And yes; if your opponent is relying mainly on ML for anti-armor use (pretty dumb opponent, but that's another point entirely. ), then Boyz can and do provide target saturation for your armor. If they're shooting frag at infantry, they're not shooting krak at tanks.
And how does this support your stand that the Dreads are a good complement to the rest of your army (in terms of target saturation), when even boys are doing the job? So why not I take more boys than the dread for target saturation then?

But back to the main point of discussion : Is your Dread a good complement to your wagons in terms of target saturation? Isn't the answer no? (Except if you play against nice opponents who will actually shoot Lascs into AV14s. and uses ordnance for anti tank, even when they know the odds are against them).


I take the Dread over more Boyz because the Dread is harder to kill for the points, that's why. Boyz can be whittled down; the Dread is either non-functional or fully functional, and it's quite difficult to make it non-functional.

About target saturation; well, consider if I didn't have the Dreads, if I'd taken another BW instead and put Boyz or something inside it. In that case, all those weapons WOULD be shooting at the Battlewagons; after all, they have nothing else to shoot at, and poor odds are still better than nothing. So then, in addition to dealing with meltas, my BWs would have to deal with missiles, lascannons, S10 Guard ordnance, etc., etc. And this is a game of dice; at any point, any of those shots could easily get lucky and explode one of my BWs, which is a bad thing.

So instead, I give all that stuff something that's slightly more appealing to shoot at, but still unlikely to die. Now I get the best of both worlds; all those extra weapons that would otherwise be rolling dice at my wagons and potentially doing damage are instead rolling dice against something else. Yes, their odds of doing important damage are better against the Dreads; but I don't care about the Dreads as much as the wagons, if for no other reason than that they aren't as expensive.

Or maybe my opponent ignore the Deff Dreads as just distractions, and points all his weapons at the wagons. Well, then I'll lose 3 of them on the way over. . . but by way of compensation I have two Dreads in assault alongside Ghazzy and a squad of Nobz, who are each nearly as killy as Ghazghkull and literally immune to the vast majority of CC troops. I'll take that trade.

Or, a third option, my opponent can split their fire two ways, and probably not manage to do decisive damage to either component of the army. Once again, I'll take that option.

So in short; yes, by drawing away all the lesser weapons from my wagons, the Deff Dreads do perform a valuable function. And sometimes they'll attract melta fire too, depending on the situation, which is all the better.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 16:28:07


Post by: Isseyfaran


BeRzErKeR wrote:The more decisions I force my opponent to make, the higher the chances that one or more of them won't be optimal. Even slim chances are worth taking, in that regard; same principle as torrent-of-fire shooting on Terminators. Make them roll enough dice, eventually they'll roll some 1s. Make them pick enough targets, eventually they'll pick wrong. It doesn't happen often, at least not against good players, but it does certainly happen.
I don't understand how your comment here relates to my melta vs your wagon example. In every game, I have to make decisions, don't I? I can't be doing nothing and passing the turn. So what is it you are driving at? And no, slim chances are NOT worth taking, if you have alternatives. You always select the action that gives you the best odds of achieving your objective. If you have no alternatives, then there isn't chance to speak of because it's either you do it, or nothing.

BeRzErKeR wrote:In addition, please note that you're NOT '[leaving my] boyz stranded and slogging in the middle of nowhere', you're leaving them on foot one or at most two turns away from assaulting you; Boyz with Ghazzy's Waagh! have an 18" assault range, so even if you're in a tank backed up against the board edge you have to kill them before they've advanced ~24" or they'll reach you in one turn; and 24" is passed in one turn's movement..So now that's another unit you have to kill; instead of the BW, you have to divert fire to kill the Boyz, which is easier but does still spread your weaponry out. Yes, you're making progress, but you've still got problems.
I don't know how you get 24". 6" move + 6" run over the course of 2 turns.? And also, with the wall of rhinos, how do you advance without dealing with the rhinos first or making a huge detour?

BeRzErKeR wrote:I take the Dread over more Boyz because the Dread is harder to kill for the points, that's why. Boyz can be whittled down; the Dread is either non-functional or fully functional, and it's quite difficult to make it non-functional.
Not true? 15 kraks kills a Dread on average but 15 frags don't kill 20 boys on average.

BeRzErKeR wrote:About target saturation; well, consider if I didn't have the Dreads, if I'd taken another BW instead and put Boyz or something inside it. In that case, all those weapons WOULD be shooting at the Battlewagons; after all, they have nothing else to shoot at, and poor odds are still better than nothing. So then, in addition to dealing with meltas, my BWs would have to deal with missiles, lascannons, S10 Guard ordnance, etc., etc. And this is a game of dice; at any point, any of those shots could easily get lucky and explode one of my BWs, which is a bad thing.
You said it yourself. The opponent will be forced to shoot missile into AV14 despite poor odds. That in itself is an aspect of target saturation. Just like spamming nothing but 180 boys on the board, forcing your opponent to shoot lascannons into boys even though it's inefficient.

BeRzErKeR wrote:So instead, I give all that stuff something that's slightly more appealing to shoot at, but still unlikely to die. Now I get the best of both worlds; all those extra weapons that would otherwise be rolling dice at my wagons and potentially doing damage are instead rolling dice against something else. Yes, their odds of doing important damage are better against the Dreads; but I don't care about the Dreads as much as the wagons, if for no other reason than that they aren't as expensive.

Or maybe my opponent ignore the Deff Dreads as just distractions, and points all his weapons at the wagons. Well, then I'll lose 3 of them on the way over. . . but by way of compensation I have two Dreads in assault alongside Ghazzy and a squad of Nobz, who are each nearly as killy as Ghazghkull and literally immune to the vast majority of CC troops. I'll take that trade.

Or, a third option, my opponent can split their fire two ways, and probably not manage to do decisive damage to either component of the army. Once again, I'll take that option.
So end up the missiles and meltas each do what there are best at. since odds are that s8 won't do anything meaningful to the wagon anyway.
Yes, your opponent splits his fire - Missiles at Dread, Meltas at Wagon. Your dread has successfully done ALMOST (key word being almost, not completely) nothing to draw efficient fire away from the wagon.

BeRzErKeR wrote:So in short; yes, by drawing away all the lesser weapons from my wagons, the Deff Dreads do perform a valuable function. And sometimes they'll attract melta fire too, depending on the situation, which is all the better.
If they draw away the LESSER weapons FROM your wagons, then NO - they do not perform a valuable function.

If they draw melta away, then YES.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 16:43:04


Post by: XC18


To BeRzErKeR : hey, maybe I am the only one , but I am also interested about any way to use efficiently Deffdread with BW !
( because everybody say I shouldn't, and also because I like their look)

I won't go into all your tactics & mathhammer discussion since I have close to 0 experience, but
- DDred main weakness are "Slow" + "Must CC" and the solution you propose is the target saturation with BW + KFF protection .
- maybe you can also try to force you opponent to come to you (though I have no idea how. Could be possible in objective-base game?). Or your experience says it is not possible ?
- maybe, adding buggies /koptas / kommandos or Stormboys in the list could also help ? The idea is to bring as many cheap ( or moderately cheap) & fast units in contact with the opponent at turn 1 or 2. He will have no other choice than turning its guns on them (so more target saturation). Of course these units will attack everything - except the paladins unit.

BTW, do Paladins have strong shooting capability ?




Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/04 16:56:06


Post by: BeRzErKeR


Isseyfaran wrote:I don't understand how your comment here relates to my melta vs your wagon example. In every game, I have to make decisions, don't I? I can't be doing nothing and passing the turn. So what is it you are driving at? And no, slim chances are NOT worth taking, if you have alternatives. You always select the action that gives you the best odds of achieving your objective. If you have no alternatives, then there isn't chance to speak of because it's either you do it, or nothing.


If I've got nothing but BWs on the table, there's hardly a decision to be made; shoot everything at the BWs, one at a time, until they die. If there's Dreads and BWs , it takes a bit more thought.

Slim chances aren't worth taking IF you have some other option that is a BETTER chance. But after you've taken all the good options, you use up whatever you have left taking the slim chances. You might get lucky.

Isseyfaran wrote:
BeRzErKeR wrote:In addition, please note that you're NOT '[leaving my] boyz stranded and slogging in the middle of nowhere', you're leaving them on foot one or at most two turns away from assaulting you; Boyz with Ghazzy's Waagh! have an 18" assault range, so even if you're in a tank backed up against the board edge you have to kill them before they've advanced ~24" or they'll reach you in one turn; and 24" is passed in one turn's movement..So now that's another unit you have to kill; instead of the BW, you have to divert fire to kill the Boyz, which is easier but does still spread your weaponry out. Yes, you're making progress, but you've still got problems.
I don't know how you get 24". 6" move + 6" run over the course of 2 turns.? And also, with the wall of rhinos, how do you advance without dealing with the rhinos first or making a huge detour?


12" deployment, 13" move from the wagon, 2" deployment, 1" base; if you blow up a BW second turn, the front edge of the unit that falls out is 28" forward. Which means that on Ork turn 2, they can cross the board and assault anything in front of them.

The wall does create a movement problem, but there are a couple of ways to deal with it. First, all the surviving wagons Deffrolla forwards; any Rhinos they explode cease to exist, thus letting the BWs continue to their maximum movement and then unload troops through the hole, while foot troops follow in their wake. If that doesn't happen, well, your Long Fangs in the backfield there are going to have trouble drawing LOS to any dismounted troops behind the Rhino wall; they might not even be able to see the wagons, if they're on foot, and any dismounted Orks will spend the turn destroying whatever Rhinos the Deffrollas didn't kill via multi-assault with the GH that jumped out to shoot. That'll create Difficult Terrain, which will impede the dismounted troops but not the wagons, since Deffrollas let you re-roll Dangerous Terrain tests. All in all the blockade is an annoyance, nothing more.

Isseyfaran wrote:
BeRzErKeR wrote:I take the Dread over more Boyz because the Dread is harder to kill for the points, that's why. Boyz can be whittled down; the Dread is either non-functional or fully functional, and it's quite difficult to make it non-functional.
Not true? 15 kraks kills a Dread on average but 15 frags don't kill 20 boys on average.


Assuming 3 hits per blast (which is pretty generous for 15 blasts), 15 frag missiles kill 22.5 Boyz. So yes, in fact they do. Not quite sure of the relevance, though.

Isseyfaran wrote:
BeRzErKeR wrote:About target saturation; well, consider if I didn't have the Dreads, if I'd taken another BW instead and put Boyz or something inside it. In that case, all those weapons WOULD be shooting at the Battlewagons; after all, they have nothing else to shoot at, and poor odds are still better than nothing. So then, in addition to dealing with meltas, my BWs would have to deal with missiles, lascannons, S10 Guard ordnance, etc., etc. And this is a game of dice; at any point, any of those shots could easily get lucky and explode one of my BWs, which is a bad thing.
You said it yourself. The opponent will be forced to shoot missile into AV14 despite poor odds. That in itself is an aspect of target saturation. Just like spamming nothing but 180 boys on the board, forcing your opponent to shoot lascannons into boys even though it's inefficient.


Yes, they will; but they'll have 5 targets instead of 6, because I could only get a single extra BW and something cheap to put in it. BWs are harder targets than Dreads, but 2 targets are better than 1. I value the extra target and CC power over the single target with extra survivability.

Isseyfaran wrote:
BeRzErKeR wrote:So instead, I give all that stuff something that's slightly more appealing to shoot at, but still unlikely to die. Now I get the best of both worlds; all those extra weapons that would otherwise be rolling dice at my wagons and potentially doing damage are instead rolling dice against something else. Yes, their odds of doing important damage are better against the Dreads; but I don't care about the Dreads as much as the wagons, if for no other reason than that they aren't as expensive.

Or maybe my opponent ignore the Deff Dreads as just distractions, and points all his weapons at the wagons. Well, then I'll lose 3 of them on the way over. . . but by way of compensation I have two Dreads in assault alongside Ghazzy and a squad of Nobz, who are each nearly as killy as Ghazghkull and literally immune to the vast majority of CC troops. I'll take that trade.

Or, a third option, my opponent can split their fire two ways, and probably not manage to do decisive damage to either component of the army. Once again, I'll take that option.
So end up the missiles and meltas each do what there are best at. since odds are that s8 won't do anything meaningful to the wagon anyway.
Yes, your opponent splits his fire - Missiles at Dread, Meltas at Wagon. Your dread has successfully done ALMOST (key word being almost, not completely) nothing to draw efficient fire away from the wagon.


In SOME situations, that will be true.

Unless my opponent repositions his missile squad to get side-armor shots on a BW.

Or he's using lascannons instead of missiles.

Or he's got some S10 Ordnance that he wants to shoot, and needs to decide between a smaller chance to kill a BW or a larger chance to kill a Dread.

Or he's got Lance weapons, which don't care about AV 14.

Or he's got Scarabs that I need to stop BEFORE they can assault the wagons and remove that lovely AV 14.

If the Deff Dreads draw any of THAT hurt away from the wagons, they have in fact performed a valuable service. As I already said, in the highly specific and unlikely circumstance of the enemy depending ENTIRELY on missiles and meltas for AT then yes, the fire-drawing benefits of the Deff Dreads are minimized; still not canceled out, but minimized.

Against literally any other setup, though, they're quite useful as targets. And, of course, against ANY setup that fails to kill them at a distance, they're brutal assault units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
XC18 wrote:To BeRzErKeR : hey, maybe I am the only one , but I am also interested about any way to use efficiently Deffdread with BW !
( because everybody say I shouldn't, and also because I like their look)

I won't go into all your tactics & mathhammer discussion since I have close to 0 experience, but
- DDred main weakness are "Slow" + "Must CC" and the solution you propose is the target saturation with BW + KFF protection .
- maybe you can also try to force you opponent to come to you (though I have no idea how. Could be possible in objective-base game?). Or your experience says it is not possible ?
- maybe, adding buggies /koptas / kommandos or Stormboys in the list could also help ? The idea is to bring as many cheap ( or moderately cheap) & fast units in contact with the opponent at turn 1 or 2. He will have no other choice than turning its guns on them (so more target saturation). Of course these units will attack everything - except the paladins unit.

BTW, do Paladins have strong shooting capability ?


Paladins can have quite strong midrange shooting; 4 psycannons in a 10-man squad gives them 16 S7 shots at 24". They can't hurt heavy armor, though.

Taking Snikrot and a big Kommando mob can sometimes convince your opponent to move a bit closer to you, or at least give you a good shot at smashing any rear-field shooting units. Otherwise, Orks usually cannot MAKE their opponents close the distance; in fact, the Orks are usually the ones doing the closing! GK will want to do so to some extent, though, since they have very little firepower beyond the 24" envelope of their psycannons.

Buggies can work well, but don't depend on them to attract much AT fire; AV10 open-topped vehicles die to things that can't even scratch heavier vehicles. Multi-lasers can kill them. If you take Buggies, you're using them for two things; to throw (relatively) accurate rokkit fire at transports, and to block movement. Maybe to give your Boyz cover for a turn. But don't plan on them attracting many meltas or lascannon shots. Deff Koptas and Stormboyz are even worse in this regard; small arms have a relatively easy time putting them down, so I don't think you'll see many anti-vehicle weapons at all pointed in their direction. Stormboyz CAN work decently together with Battlewagons, but they're not likely to reduce the weight of fire on the tanks much.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/05 02:30:43


Post by: Isseyfaran


BeRzErKeR wrote:If I've got nothing but BWs on the table, there's hardly a decision to be made; shoot everything at the BWs, one at a time, until they die. If there's Dreads and BWs , it takes a bit more thought.

Slim chances aren't worth taking IF you have some other option that is a BETTER chance. But after you've taken all the good options, you use up whatever you have left taking the slim chances. You might get lucky.
Ok, now I get what you are driving at.
But using our example (since we have been doing that all the while), it takes a bit more thought to decide what to do with the S8 missiles when faced with AV14 and AV12 dread on the board? REALLY?

BeRzErKeR wrote:Slim chances aren't worth taking IF you have some other option that is a BETTER chance. But after you've taken all the good options, you use up whatever you have left taking the slim chances. You might get lucky.
I have already said that?
BeRzErKeR wrote:And no, slim chances are NOT worth taking, if you have alternatives. You always select the action that gives you the best odds of achieving your objective. If you have no alternatives, then there isn't chance to speak of because it's either you do it, or nothing.
Why do you think what I have said is largely different from what you are trying to say? Or were you disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing?

BeRzErKeR wrote: 12" deployment, 13" move from the wagon, 2" deployment, 1" base; if you blow up a BW second turn, the front edge of the unit that falls out is 28" forward. Which means that on Ork turn 2, they can cross the board and assault anything in front of them.
Oh, we haven't come to that yet, but since you brought this up, I ll explain abit for you.

On your first turn of movement (after my turn), the maximum you can move is 11 (maybe 12, but lets not be too precise), because of the wall of skimmers. And there is no 2" disembark because you have to be more than 1" away from my skimmers. And then after the skimmers, there is nothing in front of you except rhinos. So either you hit the boxcars, or you make huge detour. So turn 2 assault into anything at my home is IMPOSSIBLE. I thought you understand how traffic jamming works, but it seems you don't... Your opponents (those who shoot ordnance at your vehs) don't use such tactics I m sure? I would think the way they play with your orks is they line up in one horizontal line and wait for your orks to assault them. That's how all newbies play.

BeRzErKeR wrote:The wall does create a movement problem, but there are a couple of ways to deal with it. First, all the surviving wagons Deffrolla forwards; any Rhinos they explode cease to exist, thus letting the BWs continue to their maximum movement and then unload troops through the hole, while foot troops follow in their wake.
Again, by saying this it shows you have never encountered skimmer walls before (i m pretty sure now). You mentioned in your previous post that an average of one squadron of speeders will miss their dodge on 3+. So that means all other wagons beside aren't moving, they stop in their track on your turn 2 movement. Turn 3, there is only that gap for the single wagon to pass through, and every other wagon line up behind, traffic jamming themself.

BeRzErKeR wrote:If that doesn't happen, well, your Long Fangs in the backfield there are going to have trouble drawing LOS to any dismounted troops behind the Rhino wall; they might not even be able to see the wagons,
Have you seen the v-shaped positioning ? (I told you we should play vassal!).
And also, rhinos can actually block LOS to wagons from Long Fangs?!?!

To top it up, 3-4 of your wagons (by average odds) should already be dead by end of turn 3...

BeRzErKeR wrote: if they're on foot, and any dismounted Orks will spend the turn destroying whatever Rhinos the Deffrollas didn't kill via multi-assault with the GH that jumped out to shoot. That'll create Difficult Terrain, which will impede the dismounted troops but not the wagons, since Deffrollas let you re-roll Dangerous Terrain tests. All in all the blockade is an annoyance, nothing more.
Why do my GHs have to be on foot if they have a choice (apart from the rhino that just got wrecked by your rolla) ?

So while you are jamming yourself in the middle, I am happily torrenting your force with fire.

I know this may come surprising to you, and I know your friends don't do that. But they aren't even competitive...

BeRzErKeR wrote:
Assuming 3 hits per blast (which is pretty generous for 15 blasts), 15 frag missiles kill 22.5 Boyz. So yes, in fact they do. Not quite sure of the relevance, though.
LOL, have you really TRIED 15 blast on boys in practical??? SERIOUSLY? You aren't assuming you hit everytime, do you?
Below is just a rough estimate :-
4 hits per blast for every blast that HITS - 20 hits
3 hits per blast for every misses and average scattering (that's pretty generous already) - 15
Nothing for every misses and above average scattering

Total 35 hits, 17.5 wounds, 8.75 dead. - OH yah, your 22.5 don't even allow for cover saves?!?!


BeRzErKeR wrote:
Yes, they will; but they'll have 5 targets instead of 6, because I could only get a single extra BW and something cheap to put in it. BWs are harder targets than Dreads, but 2 targets are better than 1. I value the extra target and CC power over the single target with extra survivability.

2 AV12 isn't "HARDER TARGETS" than 1 AV14 against S8 missiles. I am pretty sure of that. Maybe I am missing something. But show me your math. If it is, then I may start to agree with you

BeRzErKeR wrote:In SOME situations, that will be true.

Unless my opponent repositions his missile squad to get side-armor shots on a BW.
Yes, that was the exception we have brought up. And which I have already said that even so, the missiles don't have to worry about the Dreads first because they are one full turn slower than the wagons.
But I would'nt deny this is valid to a certain extent, in certain scenarios.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Or he's using lascannons instead of missiles.
Have already said the odds of S9 against AV14 is bad, and forcing your opponent to shoot at AV14 and accept this bad odds is good for you. Said that twice or 3 times, I think you chose to ignore that again.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Or he's got some S10 Ordnance that he wants to shoot, and needs to decide between a smaller chance to kill a BW or a larger chance to kill a Dread.
Care to explain why a S10 ordnance has a smaller chance to kill a BW and a larger chance to kill a Dread ?

BeRzErKeR wrote:Or he's got Lance weapons, which don't care about AV 14.
I have already said how poor your list is against DE and Eldar, due to their sheer speed, avoiding your Dreads almost the whole game. With their shots all on wagons, there is no target saturation to speak of.
Since I am at this, I might as well say this. Your list is better off with lootas replacing the dreads, and the most glaring benefits will be seen when you are playing against DE / Eldar.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Or he's got Scarabs that I need to stop BEFORE they can assault the wagons and remove that lovely AV 14.
How do you stop? Your Dreads walk in front of your wagons all game?

BeRzErKeR wrote:If the Deff Dreads draw any of THAT hurt away from the wagons, they have in fact performed a valuable service. As I already said, in the highly specific and unlikely circumstance of the enemy depending ENTIRELY on missiles and meltas for AT then yes, the fire-drawing benefits of the Deff Dreads are minimized; still not canceled out, but minimized.
I have to admit I m new with the new necron codex. Should scarabs even assault the Dreads?


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/05 05:04:19


Post by: Anvildude


thunderingjove wrote:
cgmckenzie wrote:You could hit them with burnas from the front of the wagon(open topped+template rules). Have a blob of 30 boyz wade in afterwards, survive ork assault, die GK assault. You now can do the burnas again, hopefully on less pallys.

Thinking about it, 2 SAG's supported by 45 lootas, 2 batteries of big guns(kannons preferably, but lobbas might work for pinning), a compliment of boyz, and some large bike squads might be the best way to deal with this certain problem. Keep them at range and blast them.

-cgmckenzie
SAGs are not as insane sounding as some might think; you have S8 or better about 40 percent of the time. My gripe is against the Ammo Runt; you're allowed only one!



First off, I actually run a unit of Burnaboyz I've dubbed my "Termie Huntaz". They've got 3 Meks with KMBs with them, for that nice 24" AP2- so what if you only hit every so often? When you do, it's gonna hurt. And you can then assault with Power Weapons.


And on the Ammo Runt... Perhaps attaching the SAGMek to a Flash Gitz mob? Gitz can get 3 ammo runts 'for the unit', so perhaps those'd be allowed for the Mek's use? Similar ideas with a Big Gunz battery, and some Lobbas would help with range, and possibly pinning the unit so they can't move around.

Actually, Flash Gitz could be a useful unit against Pallies, if only for their own survivability (with a Painboy and Cybork) and the ability to use their Gitfindas to be assured of being out of assault range. Also, a 1 in 3 (1/2 with Blastas) chance of ignoring armour with a Str 5/6 shot is pretty decent.

And aren't Zzap guns AP2?


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/05 05:24:03


Post by: BeRzErKeR


Isseyfaran wrote: Ok, now I get what you are driving at.
But using our example (since we have been doing that all the while), it takes a bit more thought to decide what to do with the S8 missiles when faced with AV14 and AV12 dread on the board? REALLY?


Depends on the situation. If that AV14 is up in your face, and the AV12 is a turn away? Yes.


Isseyfaran wrote:
BeRzErKeR wrote: 12" deployment, 13" move from the wagon, 2" deployment, 1" base; if you blow up a BW second turn, the front edge of the unit that falls out is 28" forward. Which means that on Ork turn 2, they can cross the board and assault anything in front of them.
Oh, we haven't come to that yet, but since you brought this up, I ll explain abit for you.

On your first turn of movement (after my turn), the maximum you can move is 11 (maybe 12, but lets not be too precise), because of the wall of skimmers. And there is no 2" disembark because you have to be more than 1" away from my skimmers. And then after the skimmers, there is nothing in front of you except rhinos. So either you hit the boxcars, or you make huge detour. So turn 2 assault into anything at my home is IMPOSSIBLE. I thought you understand how traffic jamming works, but it seems you don't... Your opponents (those who shoot ordnance at your vehs) don't use such tactics I m sure? I would think the way they play with your orks is they line up in one horizontal line and wait for your orks to assault them. That's how all newbies play.


Sigh.

You know nothing about who I am, how many times I've played, how long I've played this particularly army, against what other armies, what events I've played in. . . anything. You're trying to denigrate my past opponents, apparently, because you're incapable of conceiving that someone who doesn't deal with a problem in the same way as you can still deal with it well. And to top it off, you're also proposing an astoundingly stupid strategy.

Of COURSE I understand traffic-jamming, you idiot, I play a Battlewagon rush list! If you DON'T try to blockade a Battlewagon rush list you are a class-one, grade-A, certifiable moron! EVERYONE I play who has more than two vehicles tries it, and it hardly ever works. Hit the boxes or detour? I HIT THE BOXES. And I run right OVER them, because my whole army is in one place at all times and yours is split in three.

Blockading my first-turn movement with skimmers? Fine. That means I get to hit them with three deffrollas plus whatever you shot out of the other BW, probably Nobz (refer back to the math in a previous post, I'm not interested in doing it again). Boom, half of them are gone. Good job, you just lost 3-4 MM speeders and are unable to shoot with the others; and, at most, you held me back two inches. Or maybe you killed the unit that fell out; cool, that means I get to attack those speeders with Deff Dreads instead, because all the missiles shooting at the infantry aren't shooting at the Dreads. Either way, the majority of those speeders are toast in one turn.

Blockading my second turn's movement with Rhinos? Great! That means half of your army just MOVED RIGHT INTO ASSAULT RANGE. Transports will NOT save them, Orks eat transports in assault range for breakfast. All of my previously-dismounted troops form into columns to let the BWs pass between them and advance; Deffrollas smash two or three Rhinos, the rest of my troops disembark onto the Difficult Terrain that those Rhinos now are. If some of my infantry are too far back I'll call the Waagh, but likely I won't have to; everything will charge the Grey Hunters that were dropped out, and the rest of your Rhinos are killed by PK multi-assaults. Yes, I can kill all your Grey Hunters AND all your Rhinos in 2-3 assault phases, if you're kind enough to line them up for me like that. You've got a ton of troops and vehicles crammed into a small space with all MY troops and vehicles, which is exactly the environment in which assault-oriented Orks do best. Now you can't even shoot at most of my foot troops, because they're locked in assault; during your assault phase they finish wiping out your GHs and consolidate forward. Depending on how things went you still have up to 3 squads left, but they're dismounted and easy meat; next turn I Waaagh and sweep them up.

What you aren't appreciating is that you WILL lose any assault, and what you are proposing will put you into assault. Grey Hunters fight Boyz? They lose. They kill 6 boyz, the other 13 kill 3 of them and the Nob kills two, half the squad is gone and there are still 13 Orks left to finish them off next round even after they take another Fearless wound. You don't win that unless the Boyz mob is under half size, so even one that has their ride Exploded and charges under-strength will STILL usually beat you. Grey Hunters fight Nobz? They lose even worse. Grey Hunters fight Ghazzy? They get WRECKED. The only assault you can win is if your GH charge an under-strength squad of Boyz, and even then you take multiple casualties, after which your GH evaporate when another unit counter-charges them. That being so, bringing all those units into close-combat range like this is just plain bone-headed.

At this point, I probably have lost all the Battlewagons; your blockade worked just as intended. I don't care. I hit your Long Fangs on turn 3 or 4, depending on whether cleaning up the last of your Grey Hunters put me out of charge range for one turn, and I can kill them all just with Ghazzy and the Nobz, let alone any Dreads or Boyz that may have survived. Now you have a few MM speeders left alive, and you can snipe at me all you want with them; if you come in close enough to use the Heavy Flamers on me OR get the melta bonus I'll eat them in assault, and if not they can't do enough damage to stop me from doing anything I please; taking objectives, for instance.

Is it possible to blockade a BW list effectively enough to stop it? Yes. But it's not easy, and the way you're trying to do it is ineffective. Just putting a line of vehicles, or even two lines of vehicles, in the way WILL NOT do it. If anyone here doesn't understand traffic-jamming, frankly, it's you, and this next paragraph of yours proves it.

Isseyfaran wrote:
BeRzErKeR wrote:The wall does create a movement problem, but there are a couple of ways to deal with it. First, all the surviving wagons Deffrolla forwards; any Rhinos they explode cease to exist, thus letting the BWs continue to their maximum movement and then unload troops through the hole, while foot troops follow in their wake.
Again, by saying this it shows you have never encountered skimmer walls before (i m pretty sure now). You mentioned in your previous post that an average of one squadron of speeders will miss their dodge on 3+. So that means all other wagons beside aren't moving, they stop in their track on your turn 2 movement. Turn 3, there is only that gap for the single wagon to pass through, and every other wagon line up behind, traffic jamming themself.


No. The BW that got to move forward is only 2" ahead of the ones who didn't, because you didn't blockade them until nearly the end of their movement range anyway; they stay in line and let foot troops clear out the speeders in the Assault phase of turn 2. Remember those guys you dismounted turn 1? They're still right up next to my BWs; they got to dismount in FRONT of the vehicle you blew. Which means that you lose one squad of speeders to the Deffrollas, and ANOTHER to the Nobz, and if I feel like dismounting the OTHER nobz, you also lose the third squad.

After that, I'm gonna be hitting your Rhinos almost immediately; why would I bother to try and squeeze all my transports through a gap, assuming any speeders are still alive to define one? You've advanced to meet me, my speed is now largely irrelevant. You, in trying to blockade me, have done my job for me. I get to eat most of your army before my fourth turn, and you did it to yourself. I only need two turns to reach you if you're playing keep-away, but you AREN'T. You just basically moved forward into my ideal engagement envelope, and then stopped. The net effect is to cut my travel time down and make the transports that this whole maneuver is supposed to kill largely unimportant. It's a colossally dumb move.

If you want to play keep-away so as to get more time to shoot, you do NOT do it by sending half your army forward to get eaten. You block with one or two vehicles at a time, forcing me to choose between three bad options. I can go around (playing havoc with my timing and giving you free side/rear armor shots with melta) or try to smash straight through with a Deffrolla (reasonably high chance of failure with a single BW, and I can't really use more than 1 due to space and timing issues) or disembark troops to break the single tin can in my way (meaning you get to rip whatever I disembark to pieces with fire next turn, unless I screw up my timing even more AND give you side armor shots by blocking LOS to them with another wagon). THAT is how you stop a BW rush list; you break up the momentum, force units to dismount in different places, and try to take them out one by one.

If you block with 6 Rhinos all at once, I just jump out and KILL them all at once. You have put up a solid wall comprised of HALF your army in front of my WHOLE army, after trivially delaying me with a token force, and it will not hold up. This is exactly what I want you to do. It's the best possible outcome for me, besides you just surrendering on turn 1. It's what I would expect from a first-time mech player who'd read up on blocking assaults on the Internet and never actually done it, or perhaps a player who has never played a game against BW Orks. What you'll manage to accomplish is to pit less than 1000 points worth of non-CC optimized MEQ against more than 1300 points of relentlessly CC focused Orks in assault over two turns, and that's just an overly long and complex way to say that you'll lose.

Isseyfaran wrote:
BeRzErKeR wrote:If that doesn't happen, well, your Long Fangs in the backfield there are going to have trouble drawing LOS to any dismounted troops behind the Rhino wall; they might not even be able to see the wagons,
Have you seen the v-shaped positioning ? (I told you we should play vassal!).
And also, rhinos can actually block LOS to wagons from Long Fangs?!?!


My apologies; I accidentally left out a phrase. That should have read, "if dismounted they might not even be able to see the wagons". No, Rhinos cannot block LOS from Razorbacks to Battlewagons. They can, with careful positioning on the Ork player's part, be used to block LOS from infantry models to Battlewagons. Of course, if your Long Fangs are mounted in the Razorbacks, they aren't firing five missiles per turn. If they're dismounted then yes, I can pretty much guarantee that I can prevent you from seeing one or two of my BWs by using a combination of your Rhinos and the third BW.

Isseyfaran wrote:To top it up, 3-4 of your wagons (by average odds) should already be dead by end of turn 3...


See above, re: I don't care. They've done their job, and if you've pulled the damn-fool send-all-my-GH-to-get-killed trick you seem to be advocating, basically all of your Troops are dead and I'm one turn away from taking out your Razorbacks. It might take me two to kill the Long Fangs depending on where they are and if they move, so I may not actually finish killing ALL your infantry until Turn 5.

Isseyfaran wrote:
BeRzErKeR wrote: if they're on foot, and any dismounted Orks will spend the turn destroying whatever Rhinos the Deffrollas didn't kill via multi-assault with the GH that jumped out to shoot. That'll create Difficult Terrain, which will impede the dismounted troops but not the wagons, since Deffrollas let you re-roll Dangerous Terrain tests. All in all the blockade is an annoyance, nothing more.
Why do my GHs have to be on foot if they have a choice (apart from the rhino that just got wrecked by your rolla) ?

So while you are jamming yourself in the middle, I am happily torrenting your force with fire.

I know this may come surprising to you, and I know your friends don't do that. But they aren't even competitive...


You mean, while I'm jamming myself in the middle for ONE OR TWO TURNS, in cover, while happily massacring half your army? And you're 'torrenting' me with WHAT, exactly? Oh, right. . . missile launchers. Yeah, that's gonna accomplish a lot. Go ahead, kill the Deff Dread, or shoot those missiles at my infantry. It will make not a single solitary speck of difference, because you've already thrown away most of your troops in a pointless attack.

Isseyfaran wrote:
BeRzErKeR wrote:
Assuming 3 hits per blast (which is pretty generous for 15 blasts), 15 frag missiles kill 22.5 Boyz. So yes, in fact they do. Not quite sure of the relevance, though.
LOL, have you really TRIED 15 blast on boys in practical??? SERIOUSLY? You aren't assuming you hit everytime, do you?
Below is just a rough estimate :-
4 hits per blast for every blast that HITS - 20 hits
3 hits per blast for every misses and average scattering (that's pretty generous already) - 15
Nothing for every misses and above average scattering

Total 35 hits, 17.5 wounds, 8.75 dead. - OH yah, your 22.5 don't even allow for cover saves?!?!


I tipped all of my assumptions in favor of the Space Wolves. Actually, that's what I've been doing all along; for instance, all of my vehicle damage calculations assumed that every hit you scored penetrated, including those that mathematically should be glances. I believe in preparing for bad luck; I always assume that my opponent will be consistently a little luckier than me. It gives me a realistic idea of what I can do with my units even if things go wrong.

If your point was that you would always shoot the missiles at the Deff Dreads. . . ok. Good for you. You kill 'em both while your troops are being slaughtered in the midfield (assuming you can see them past the Battlewagons), then your Long Fangs might get one more turn of shooting if they're in the veeeery back corner of the board. Then they die.

At this point, your abominable grasp of anti-Ork tactics have literally made it a moot point whether Deff Dreads provide target saturation or not; I'd have a decent shot at winning this battle WITHOUT BRINGING THEM, because you've clearly demonstrated that while you have quite a decent grasp of the math involved, you tactically have no notion of how to deal with Battlewagon Orks. Have you ever actually played against a BW list? I mean. . . ever? Because if you had, I would like to think that you'd know enough not to throw all your Troops willy-nilly into the teeth of a mass Ork assault.


Isseyfaran wrote:
BeRzErKeR wrote:
Yes, they will; but they'll have 5 targets instead of 6, because I could only get a single extra BW and something cheap to put in it. BWs are harder targets than Dreads, but 2 targets are better than 1. I value the extra target and CC power over the single target with extra survivability.

2 AV12 isn't "HARDER TARGETS" than 1 AV14 against S8 missiles. I am pretty sure of that. Maybe I am missing something. But show me your math. If it is, then I may start to agree with you


I'm tired of this. Against missiles AND MISSILES ALONE, 2 AV12 under a KFF are worth less than 1 AV 14 Open-Topped under a KFF. Against literally any weapon of higher Strength OR any Lance weapon, 2 AV 12 vehicles are better.

Against AV 14 a BS 4 lascannon gets 0.22 damage results per turn; assuming no glances and all pens, that works out to a ~8% chance to disable a KFF-protected Battlewagon per lascannon per turn. Remember that BWs are open-topped, which means 2/3rds of all pens disable it (destroy, explode or immobilize).

Against AV 12 a BS 4 lascannon gets 0.44 damage results per turn; assuming no glances and all pens, that works out to a ~11% chance to disable a KFF-protected Deff Dread per lascannon per turn. Deff Dreads are NOT open-topped, meaning only 1/2 of pens disable them.

The numbers get worse for S10 weapons, or AP1 weapons. I repeat; against ANY anti-tank weapon EXCEPT Missile Launchers and Autocannons, 2 AV 12 hulls are harder to kill than a single AV 14 hull. So if you're running any army that isn't Space Wolves, OR any Space Wolf build that isn't mass Missile Launcher spam, 2 Deff Dreads provide better target saturation than 1 Battlewagon.

Isseyfaran wrote:
BeRzErKeR wrote:In SOME situations, that will be true.

Unless my opponent repositions his missile squad to get side-armor shots on a BW.
Yes, that was the exception we have brought up. And which I have already said that even so, the missiles don't have to worry about the Dreads first because they are one full turn slower than the wagons.
But I would'nt deny this is valid to a certain extent, in certain scenarios.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Or he's using lascannons instead of missiles.
Have already said the odds of S9 against AV14 is bad, and forcing your opponent to shoot at AV14 and accept this bad odds is good for you. Said that twice or 3 times, I think you chose to ignore that again.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Or he's got some S10 Ordnance that he wants to shoot, and needs to decide between a smaller chance to kill a BW or a larger chance to kill a Dread.
Care to explain why a S10 ordnance has a smaller chance to kill a BW and a larger chance to kill a Dread ?

BeRzErKeR wrote:Or he's got Lance weapons, which don't care about AV 14.
I have already said how poor your list is against DE and Eldar, due to their sheer speed, avoiding your Dreads almost the whole game. With their shots all on wagons, there is no target saturation to speak of.
Since I am at this, I might as well say this. Your list is better off with lootas replacing the dreads, and the most glaring benefits will be seen when you are playing against DE / Eldar.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Or he's got Scarabs that I need to stop BEFORE they can assault the wagons and remove that lovely AV 14.
How do you stop? Your Dreads walk in front of your wagons all game?

BeRzErKeR wrote:If the Deff Dreads draw any of THAT hurt away from the wagons, they have in fact performed a valuable service. As I already said, in the highly specific and unlikely circumstance of the enemy depending ENTIRELY on missiles and meltas for AT then yes, the fire-drawing benefits of the Deff Dreads are minimized; still not canceled out, but minimized.
I have to admit I m new with the new necron codex. Should scarabs even assault the Dreads?


In order;

1. Nothing is ever valid in a game like 40k except 'to a certain extent, in some scenarios'.

2. False. Go back to the math I posted above; this is flatly wrong. Lascannons have an EASIER time killing 1 Open-topped AV 14 than 2 AV 12. I didn't choose to ignore what you said, I contradicted it, because it's incorrect.

3. On this one you're correct; Ordnance Blast is more likely to hit the BW than the Deff Dread because the Dread is smaller, so the chance to disable a KFF-covered BW is ~14% per shot while the chance to disable a Deff Dread is ~10% per shot. The first time I ran the math, I failed to include the fact that BWs are open-topped.

4. Eldar and DE can flit around all they want. For one thing, in order to keep me from charging their tanks they have to stay out of a 28" circle around my Battlewagons; that doesn't leave much of the table to move around in. Second, 2/3rds of missions are objectives; in Seize Ground I place all of mine as close together as possible and sit on them til turn 5, when I spread out to contest or claim the others. In Capture and Control I stay inside cover on my objective til about turn 4, then charge across the table to contest or capture theirs with most of my troops while leaving something behind to hold mine. Lances alone don't have enough power to shift me once I AM dismounted; They HAVE to close in to try and dislodge me, and then the extra range of those lances doesn't matter at all. In assault, Eldar die to Orks like flies; DE are tougher, but MSU DE with lots of Dark Lances are still far too fragile to win a slugging contest with Orks. Still, with all that, I agree that this build is at a slight disadvantage against MSU Lance-heavy builds, DE much more than Eldar.

5. No, they Run beside them, and Run or charge ahead when I see scarabs coming. It only matters within the first two turns, which is before my wagons will have significantly outdistanced my Dreads.

6. I've only played one game against Newcrons, but I would say that yes, Scarabs should assault vehicles anytime they have the chance. Against a Deff Dread they'll a lot of them will die, but what they leave behind is easy meat for shooting after Entropic Strike (if I've got the name of the ability right) has reduced its AV down to 10; and Tomb Spyders can always generate more.





Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/05 05:32:59


Post by: Ghenghis Jon


Anvildude wrote:And on the Ammo Runt.... Perhaps attaching the SAGMek to a Flash Gitz mob? Gitz can get 3 ammo runts 'for the unit', so perhaps those'd be allowed for the Mek's use? Similar ideas with a Big Gunz battery, and some Lobbas would help with range, and possibly pinning the unit so they can't move around.

Actually, Flash Gitz could be a useful unit against Pallies, if only for their own survivability (with a Painboy and Cybork) and the ability to use their Gitfindas to be assured of being out of assault range. Also, a 1 in 3 (1/2 with Blastas) chance of ignoring armour with a Str 5/6 shot is pretty decent.

And aren't Zzap guns AP2?
Flash Gitz don't have wound allocation shenanigans like Nob Bikerz do. Still, the Cybork and FNP would be quite decent against Palladins shooting at you, but mean nothing in CC with them due to Force Weapons. My main problem is that they cost 125 points for 5 shots to 485 points for 18 shots and one Heavy Support slot. At 25-27 points per shot, you could purchase twice as many guaranteed shots in Lootas with the chance to get more. Attaching a SAG to the Grot crew of a Zzap Gun battery still takes up a HS slot, but they are much cheaper way (45 points!) to get 3 more Ammo Runts for your SAG. You can even max out the Battery crew to give your Mek a decent meat shield, the SAG can pick a target separate from the Battery, and he only risks wounds on a 5+ if the unit is targeted.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/05 08:29:50


Post by: Isseyfaran


BeRzErKeR wrote:Depends on the situation. If that AV14 is up in your face, and the AV12 is a turn away? Yes.
If the wagons are up in my face, I have lost anyway. So your are merely using a ridiculously situation to explain your stand.
If the AV14 is a turn away and the Dread 2turns away, then everything into the sides of the wagons, dread later. Which is "point 2" of why dreads aren't a good complement. Said that many times.

BeRzErKeR wrote: Sigh.

You know nothing about who I am, how many times I've played, how long I've played this particularly army, against what other armies, what events I've played in. . . anything. You're trying to denigrate my past opponents,
SURE. Show us what events you ve played and your achievements, since you brought it up. I m waiting.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Of COURSE I understand traffic-jamming, you idiot,
Congrats, your attempt at personal attack doesn't make your argument stronger, it merely make you appear low.

BeRzErKeR wrote:I play a Battlewagon rush list! If you DON'T try to blockade a Battlewagon rush list you are a class-one, grade-A, certifiable moron! EVERYONE I play who has more than two vehicles tries it, and it hardly ever works. Hit the boxes or detour? I HIT THE BOXES. And I run right OVER them, because my whole army is in one place at all times and yours is split in three.

Blockading my first-turn movement with skimmers? Fine. That means I get to hit them with three deffrollas plus whatever you shot out of the other BW, probably Nobz (refer back to the math in a previous post, I'm not interested in doing it again). Boom, half of them are gone. Good job, you just lost 3-4 MM speeders and are unable to shoot with the others;
LOL. Let me quote what you said in your previous post.
BeRzErKeR wrote:The Nobz get 2 S5 hits, a S7 hit and a S9 hit (rounding all fractions down) which gives a couple damage rolls; that squad of speeders isn't shooting next turn. The Deffrollas, since there were 3 of them, on average hit once
If a squad of speeders isnt shooting, and another squad got decimated, then it means the third squad of 2 remains intact. So i don't know how you got your magic no. "3-4" . I m sure you didnt think when you type your previous post, right?


BeRzErKeR wrote:Blockading my second turn's movement with Rhinos? Great! That means half of your army just MOVED RIGHT INTO ASSAULT RANGE. Transports will NOT save them, Orks eat transports in assault range for breakfast. All of my previously-dismounted troops form into columns to let the BWs pass between them and advance; Deffrollas smash two or three Rhinos,
1 speeder squadron got toast, the other not shooting, and last one intact. Not sure how you are going to do that when the space taken up by 2 speeders only allow one wagon to squeeze through. You seriously have no idea what you are talking about.

All of what you said after this isn't even valid anymore.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Which means that you lose one squad of speeders to the Deffrollas, and ANOTHER to the Nobz, and if I feel like dismounting the OTHER nobz, you also lose the third squad.
Realize how all of a sudden those "speeders that aren't shooting anymore" are suddenly gone? Your probability increases with every post you make. Seriously, do you even re read what you type previously? I mean... LOL.

BeRzErKeR wrote:My apologies; I accidentally left out a phrase. That should have read, "if dismounted they might not even be able to see the wagons". No, Rhinos cannot block LOS from Razorbacks to Battlewagons. They can, with careful positioning on the Ork player's part, be used to block LOS from infantry models to Battlewagons. Of course, if your Long Fangs are mounted in the Razorbacks, they aren't firing five missiles per turn. If they're dismounted then yes, I can pretty much guarantee that I can prevent you from seeing one or two of my BWs by using a combination of your Rhinos and the third BW.
You said rhinos block the wagons. Then now you are saying rhinos + wagon block other wagons. Make up your mind?

Nvm, take pictures and show us that your BRILLIANT positioning CAN actually block LOS from Long fangs to Battlewagons. THANKS.

Again the rest of what you posted following this is based on wrong assumptions from above (fix those above first). So nothing much I can comment on, much like when you claim grots can win assault terminators in assault. What more can I say?

BeRzErKeR wrote:
I tipped all of my assumptions in favor of the Space Wolves. Actually, that's what I've been doing all along; for instance, all of my vehicle damage calculations assumed that every hit you scored penetrated, including those that mathematically should be glances. I believe in preparing for bad luck; I always assume that my opponent will be consistently a little luckier than me. It gives me a realistic idea of what I can do with my units even if things go wrong.

If your point was that you would always shoot the missiles at the Deff Dreads. . . ok. Good for you. You kill 'em both while your troops are being slaughtered in the midfield (assuming you can see them past the Battlewagons), then your Long Fangs might get one more turn of shooting if they're in the veeeery back corner of the board. Then they die.
LOL, now you change the topic. Let's get back to topic. 15 Missiles kill 1 Dread more readily than 20 boys, don't they, contrary to what you claimed just now? We are talking about target saturation here, so save your stories about who gets slaughtered by who.

BeRzErKeR wrote:
At this point, your abominable grasp of anti-Ork tactics have literally made it a moot point whether Deff Dreads provide target saturation or not; I'd have a decent shot at winning this battle WITHOUT BRINGING THEM, because you've clearly demonstrated that while you have quite a decent grasp of the math involved, you tactically have no notion of how to deal with Battlewagon Orks. Have you ever actually played against a BW list? I mean. . . ever? Because if you had, I would like to think that you'd know enough not to throw all your Troops willy-nilly into the teeth of a mass Ork assault.
LOL, i like this comment of yours. OK, i have never played a wagon list before, much less seen them. Shall we have a game in vassal so that I can seen the prowess of your list? OH please don't give excuse that you are lazy to download the program or your have no time, or some other excuse. LETS PLAY. I m most willing to learn from an "expert" like you, and experience speeders getting blown up like nobody business by nobs hitting them on sixes.

I m EXCITED :-).

BeRzErKeR wrote:Against AV 14 a BS 4 lascannon gets 0.22 damage results per turn; assuming no glances and all pens, that works out to a ~8% chance to disable a KFF-protected Battlewagon per lascannon per turn. Remember that BWs are open-topped, which means 2/3rds of all pens disable it (destroy, explode or immobilize).

Against AV 12 a BS 4 lascannon gets 0.44 damage results per turn; assuming no glances and all pens, that works out to a ~11% chance to disable a KFF-protected Deff Dread per lascannon per turn. Deff Dreads are NOT open-topped, meaning only 1/2 of pens disable them.
Your math is correct. But you have just compared one wagon to one Dread. Where is your 1 wagon to 2 dread comparison?



BeRzErKeR wrote:1. Nothing is ever valid in a game like 40k except 'to a certain extent, in some scenarios'.
And I have said that EVEN in the circumstances that you are facing your side against me, your dread is STILL one full turn slower - not forcing me to make tough decisions.
Are you thinking straight?

BeRzErKeR wrote:False. Go back to the math I posted above; this is flatly wrong. Lascannons have an EASIER time killing 1 Open-topped AV 14 than 2 AV 12. I didn't choose to ignore what you said, I contradicted it, because it's incorrect.
You haven't done me the math of 2 Dreads aaginst 1 wagon, merely 1 vs 1.


BeRzErKeR wrote:in order to keep me from charging their tanks they have to stay out of a 28" circle around my Battlewagons; that doesn't leave much of the table to move around in.
So the issue here is they don't even have to fire at your dreads, do they? All they are concerned is firing at your wagon, because your dreads aren't even a threat to them. your dreads don't have 28" threat range. Once again, you have shown us how useless the dreads are in complement with the wagons. Congrats.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Second, 2/3rds of missions are objectives; in Seize Ground I place all of mine as close together as possible and sit on them til turn 5, when I spread out to contest or claim the others. In Capture and Control I stay inside cover on my objective til about turn 4, then charge across the table to contest or capture theirs with most of my troops while leaving something behind to hold mine. Lances alone don't have enough power to shift me once I AM dismounted; They HAVE to close in to try and dislodge me, and then the extra range of those lances doesn't matter at all. In assault, Eldar die to Orks like flies; DE are tougher, but MSU DE with lots of Dark Lances are still far too fragile to win a slugging contest with Orks. Still, with all that, I agree that this build is at a slight disadvantage against MSU Lance-heavy builds, DE much more than Eldar.
Not sure what you are arguing here? What good is your dread here?

BeRzErKeR wrote:No, they Run beside them, and Run or charge ahead when I see scarabs coming. It only matters within the first two turns, which is before my wagons will have significantly outdistanced my Dreads.
I LOL-ed at the parts in bold. You mean dreads have greater threat range than scarabs?


And thanks for your compliment regarding my BatRep. I think I m good with Tau, just wondering how good you are with your orks. Vassal ok? No excuses ok?


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/05 09:14:24


Post by: kaiservonhugal


Please take this into the PM realm.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/05 13:19:16


Post by: BeRzErKeR


@Isseyfaran; I have Vassal, I use it frequently. But I'm not going to set up a game with you, because I don't care if you believe me or not.

Believe me or not, whatever you want. When you go up against a BW rush list, with your grasp of the tactics involved, you'll get stomped into the mud. That's not my problem. I've tried to correct your ignorance, but it seems invincible, so, oh well.

Most of the 'problems' you bring up are, in fact, due to your failing to read my posts and understand them. Try doing that. I'll even give you an example; the math for 1 BW vs. 2 Dreads is not materially different from the math for 1 BW vs 1 Dread. It requires only a moment's thought ro realize that doubling the number of AV12 hulls means doubling the number of shots required to kill them both. And in fact I DID present the conclusion of the exercise, you just don't seem to have bothered to read it.

". . .against ANY anti-tank weapon EXCEPT Missile Launchers and Autocannons, 2 AV 12 hulls are harder to kill than a single AV 14 hull."

There are several more such forehead-slapping moments throughout your post; I'll leave it to you to find them. Good day.

@kaiser; Nah, I'd rather just end it.

To the OP; Apologies for dragging your thread so OT. I think the question of 'what Orks use to kill paladins' has basically been answered. Ghazzy does it, Nobz are mediocre at it, Dreads are effective, Kans are kinda-sorta effective. Nothing besides that is very good at all.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/05 14:00:10


Post by: Isseyfaran


BeRzErKeR wrote:@Isseyfaran; I have Vassal, I use it frequently. But I'm not going to set up a game with you, because I don't care if you believe me or not.

Believe me or not, whatever you want. When you go up against a BW rush list, with your grasp of the tactics involved, you'll get stomped into the mud. That's not my problem. I've tried to correct your ignorance, but it seems invincible, so, oh well.
LOL, you claim I ll get stomped. You claim you have vassal.
But for some funny reason you refuse to play. You prefer all talk but no action, because this way you can never be proved wrong.

You claim you have tournament experience. But when asked about it, you keep quiet.
You claim (using your math) in one comment that your nobs merely keeps my speeders from shooting, but in another comment claim that they are gone (for some strange reasons.
You resort to personal attacks, using words like "idiot"
You can't explain how 3 surviving wagons can squeeze through 2 speeders worth of space
You claim with your smart positioning, you can actually prevent LFs from drawing LOS to wagons (that sounds like magic to me SERIOUSLY). But you can't explain how.
You refuse to admit that contrary to your belief, that 15 missiles take down a dread much easier than 20 boys. When I put the math in front of you, you attempt to change the topic because your ego tells you you should never admit your mistake.
Scarabs have greater threat range than DeffDreads. But you claimed that as soon as you see the scarabs, you will assault them so as to prevent them from assaulting your wagon. So there are 2 possibilities here :- (1) Either your opponent moves his scarabs with charge range of your wagon and waits for your dread to charge him, i.e. he is a noob, (2) you actually don't know the threat range of scarabs but is too quick to want to prove yourself with words here.


Seriously, you ve only made it more obvious to me that you are an empty vessel, and that all you ve did in your whole of 40k experience is play 40k with your brothers and sister, and maybe a few of your good friends, despite you claiming that you actually play with pros and plays in competitive settings Now, I am not even flattered that you commended me for being a good Tau player - because that comment comes from you...


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/05 17:50:02


Post by: PipeAlley


I no longer use Nob units in any list due to the fact I play Grey Knights 2/5ths of the time. With so much GK out there I think this is a perfect post, thanks to the OP.

I use a 9 Kan Box (3 Grotzookas up front with 2 sets of 3 Rokkits or KMB's on either side) with 1 KFF along with 3 Deff Koptas, Snik, some Lootas, and just recently switched out my Deff Dred and some Lootas for Ghaz which has worked out well.

Last game I dropped 2 more Lootas to switch 6 Kans from Rokkits to KMB's. Of course I get matched up with Demons who all have Inv saves so that was a waste

However I find even with Paladins my Grotzookas kill more than the Rokkits ever did. People just underestimate them. I'm looking forward to running the KMB's to see how the change alters the results.

Here's a quick chart of percentages based on how many Paladins wounded with Apothecary and 4+ cover saves (Rokkits and KMB's are ID):

Skorcha
1 hit = 5.56%
2 hit = 11.11%
3 hit = 16.67%
4 hit = 22.22%
5 hit = 27.78%
6 hit = 33.33%

Grotzooka
1 with template and 2/3 scatter= 4.63%
2 with template and 2/3 scatter= 9.26%
3 with template and 2/3 scatter = 13.89%
4 with template and 2/3 scatter = 18.52%
5 with template and 2/3 scatter = 23.15%
6 with template and 2/3 scatter = 27.78%

Rokkit
6.94%

KMB
20.83%

This doesn't include scatter reduced by BS3 of course. The important things to remember are the TAC mentality and the fact that Skorchas cost X points, Grotzookas 2X, Rokkits 3X, and KMB's cost 4X.

I think the best bet to killing Paladins are first shooting with Kans, then assaulting with Ghaz, Boyz, and Kanz. Works pretty well for me. Lootas, Snik, and BuzzKoptas take out/tie up Rifledreads just fine in my experience.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/05 17:55:09


Post by: Lord Magnus


As previously mentioned, I believe Wagon or Trukk burnas, and Lootas are your best bet. Sheer firepower.


Trouble killing Paladins with orks @ 2012/01/06 01:28:33


Post by: Isseyfaran


PipeAlley wrote:I no longer use Nob units in any list due to the fact I play Grey Knights 2/5ths of the time. With so much GK out there I think this is a perfect post, thanks to the OP.

I use a 9 Kan Box (3 Grotzookas up front with 2 sets of 3 Rokkits or KMB's on either side) with 1 KFF along with 3 Deff Koptas, Snik, some Lootas, and just recently switched out my Deff Dred and some Lootas for Ghaz which has worked out well.

Last game I dropped 2 more Lootas to switch 6 Kans from Rokkits to KMB's. Of course I get matched up with Demons who all have Inv saves so that was a waste

However I find even with Paladins my Grotzookas kill more than the Rokkits ever did. People just underestimate them. I'm looking forward to running the KMB's to see how the change alters the results.

Here's a quick chart of percentages based on how many Paladins wounded with Apothecary and 4+ cover saves (Rokkits and KMB's are ID):

Skorcha
1 hit = 5.56%
2 hit = 11.11%
3 hit = 16.67%
4 hit = 22.22%
5 hit = 27.78%
6 hit = 33.33%

Grotzooka
1 with template and 2/3 scatter= 4.63%
2 with template and 2/3 scatter= 9.26%
3 with template and 2/3 scatter = 13.89%
4 with template and 2/3 scatter = 18.52%
5 with template and 2/3 scatter = 23.15%
6 with template and 2/3 scatter = 27.78%

Rokkit
6.94%

KMB
20.83%

This doesn't include scatter reduced by BS3 of course. The important things to remember are the TAC mentality and the fact that Skorchas cost X points, Grotzookas 2X, Rokkits 3X, and KMB's cost 4X.

I think the best bet to killing Paladins are first shooting with Kans, then assaulting with Ghaz, Boyz, and Kanz. Works pretty well for me. Lootas, Snik, and BuzzKoptas take out/tie up Rifledreads just fine in my experience.


I 2nd the KMB on Killa Kans, as well as Ghaz in a Kan wall build, contrary to Jidmah's belief.
KMB didnt use to be cost efficient in the past, but with the metagame shifting heavily towards GKs, the extra pt spend to get a S8 AP2 now is kind of worth it - just sufficient to instant kill a Paladin.