i was just wondering, what would be the most OP army and UP army - I think that GK are pretty OP while in every Batrep I read/watch about IG, they always lose .
Well, most people would still probably say GK is the most over powered. and I'd be inclined to agree, though i've seen some NASTY necrons and space wolves armies.
under powered is a strange question though. Each army could make a terrible unit choice if you did it so, but if you compared the "best army" they could make at any reasonable level compared to other best armies it's pretty close between Tau and SoB I would think. the SoB run out of units they can even take after too long, and their best most expensive stuff pales in comparison to other armies heavy hitters. While the Tau seem just too squishy for their price, yeah the dark/eldar are squishy too but you get more of them for the points.
As Tau it can be really hard to make your points back even with the "better" units. I can't speak for SoB, as I have never even seen such an army yet, but the Tau-dex really needs at least a price-adjustment to be called decent =(
Most people will never play against a Sisters of Battle player, but they aren't half bad. Dominions are mean and Exorcists are frightening if they roll well. Faith points don't scale very well though.
GK would generally be my first choice in terms of OP armies; a dirt-cheap abundance of FW, psybolt ammo, and DEAR LORD IN HEAVEN, the warpquake garbage. Any army that has builds that can CATEGORICALLY AUTO-WIN against another codex just cannot be fairly built.
SW comes in at a distant second; yeah, they have some things that are a little cheap, what with LF capable of shooting at two targets, and the whole MSU-Razorspam going from slightly annoying sufficiently cheap, though that last one is also a product of how cheap transports are in general. Also, theres JotWW. Lame. Yet still, you CAN beat them with skill and tactics, no matter who you're playing with.
Shadox wrote:As Tau it can be really hard to make your points back even with the "better" units. I can't speak for SoB, as I have never even seen such an army yet, but the Tau-dex really needs at least a price-adjustment to be called decent =(
The sisters of battle is actually a mid-tier army, they aren't bad...
The problem is FLEXIBILITY. The units you want? Clear cut to the point that no other options are worthwhile
HQ slot, you never take a base unit, always the three SC's (why bother making one, anything you make will be more expensive and worse then the SC's, and you NEED Uriah for re-rollable faith points, as a result of this the Battle Conclave is often used as well, and very deadly in the hands of Uriah (Adds +1 attack to all units in his squad, meaning even the Crusaders are deadly!) Kyrinov is good, and Saint Celestine is a beatstick that Yarrick envies, an always 4+ power weapon attack, jump infantry, heavy flamer assault attack, 2+/4++ that can stand back up on death, With an EXCELLENT statline, and costs less than a Canoness with a combi-flamer, 4++ save, and power weapon.
Elite slot: If your lucky, you may see Sister Repentia, now that they've gotten a bit better, but that's the only one from this slot.
Troops: Battle sisters suck, but they still pack double melta (Heavy flamers are to expensive now, at double melta cost), of course they are also the only troops you can take.
Fast Attack: Most contested slot, you'll see either triple dominion, or a mix of dominion and seraphim, both good at busting things up what they need to (Dominions twin linked with flamers or melta really helps, and Seraphim are good at busting up units now that heavy flamers are less common)
Heavy: Depending on points cost, you'll either have two Retributors with heavy bolters, or just one with two Exorcists.
I can only say that sw are the most OP army out there at the mo, i've not had the pleasure of facing the Please don't use that term as a slur on Dakka, we appreciate or want hateful and thoughtless comments like this. Reds8n knights as of yet.
Most UP army? I would have to say the Eldar, not enough anti tank weaponry (FD are the exception of course but bland and boring).
Dakkadakka will say the Grey Knights are the most OP but I have yet to lose to a GK Army.
It really just depends on what your opponent does and how you react. I heard SW are tough but I have seen plenty of Battle reports of people beating them pretty easily.
Though by most peoples standards I also play an OP Army.
In my experience here's the list from hardest to weeniest.
1. Grey Knights
2. Space Wolves
3. IADKoK (like the guard but MOAR)
4. Vanilla Imperial Guard
5. Necrons, tied with Dark Eldar and Blood Angels
8. Space marines
9. Orks, IA Corsair Eldar, and IA Dreadlist orks
11. Eldar and SoBs
13. Black Templars
14. Dark Angels
15. Chaos Space marines and Tyranids
17 Chaos Daemons.
18. Tau.
Kain wrote:In my experience here's the list from hardest to weeniest.
1. Grey Knights
2. Space Wolves
3. IADKoK (like the guard but MOAR)
4. Vanilla Imperial Guard
5. Necrons, tied with Dark Eldar and Blood Angels
8. Space marines
9. Orks, IA Corsair Eldar, and IA Dreadlist orks
11. Eldar and SoBs
13. Black Templars
14. Dark Angels
15. Chaos Space marines and Tyranids
17 Chaos Daemons.
18. Tau.
Daemons are a solid mid tier army and should be right up there with Vanilla Marines, Orks, IG, Newcrons, BA's, Eldar and the like.
Actually, the only army that can auto-bone Daemons are 'Derp Knights' who were given every possible advantage you can think of, plus the kitchen sink for good measure.
Kain wrote:In my experience here's the list from hardest to weeniest.
1. Grey Knights
2. Space Wolves
3. IADKoK (like the guard but MOAR)
4. Vanilla Imperial Guard
5. Necrons, tied with Dark Eldar and Blood Angels
8. Space marines
9. Orks, IA Corsair Eldar, and IA Dreadlist orks
11. Eldar and SoBs
13. Black Templars
14. Dark Angels
15. Chaos Space marines and Tyranids
17 Chaos Daemons.
18. Tau.
Daemons are a solid mid tier army and should be right up there with Vanilla Marines, Orks, IG, Newcrons, BA's, Eldar and the like.
Actually, the only army that can auto-bone Daemons are 'Derp Knights' who were given every possible advantage you can think of, plus the kitchen sink for good measure.
OP = GK. Is there anyway to deny it? They requite almost no thought to win. cc into something and it will die for you.
UP = Tau. I play them, and it really is hard to get anything in my list to do what I need it to at one time. example, I used around 500pts of shooting one turn, and it killed 5 ork boys. these guys were out in the open, without a truck and not big mek. just me and a 20 man squad of squishy. They did die the next turn when I got pissed and they got a pie plate from hell put on them. Killed 17
I faced a really scary Daemons list the other week, and since then I've looked through their possibilities. They're far from overpowered, but they are definitely not UP
As others pointed out, the army most see as an issue right now is Grey Knights. They can do a huge variety of builds and abuse every aspect of the core rules people have an issue with (e.g. wound allocation) and have a huge number of incredibly underpriced units, upgrades and abilities (e.g. 5pt psybolts for two TL'd BS4/5 Autocannons, 5pts to ignore shaken/stunned results 92% of the time, often free swaps to weapons that make them I6, etc)
Other complaints include Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Imperial Guard.
Space Wolves because they have a number of core units that have more wargear and very powerful special rules with unit and upgrade costs that are lower than much less well equipped and less capable counter parts (e.g. Grey Hunters have Bolter/Pistol/CCW with Counterattack for 15pts each where basic SM's lack the CCW and Counterattack and are 16pts each and pay more for sergeants and sergeant weapons like powerfists, Long Fangs get 6 dudes with 5 Krak missiles that can fire at 2 targets for 140pts, etc).
Blood Angels can field a stupid amount of armor, especially heavy tanks, and they're all Fast, in addition to have a very abuseable combat HQ (Mephiston) and assault marines as troops with all sorts of free DS rules and min/max ability coupled with very cheap Feel No Pain bubbles.
Imperial Guard are a bit of an odd animal, but can field an unholy number of tanks and heavy weapons relatively cheaply.
Brother Coa wrote:Grey Knights.... they are after all the ELITE of Imeprium's military. Only way to defeat them is with numbers.
More specifically, lots of shooting. They can quite handily deal with lots of enemies in CC, especially when they can throw one unit into an Ork Horde and kill half of it before anyone swings.
Being "elite" shouldn't be an excuse for being overpowered, that's why we have points costs.
OP = GK. Is there anyway to deny it? They requite almost no thought to win. cc into something and it will die for you.
Spoken like someone who does not understand how Grey Knights work. They're a short-range shooty army, not a CC army.
And yet Ward insists on giving out Force Weapons for next to nothing.
And yet they play better with a shooty list than an assaulty list. The force weapons are there to discourage the enemy from charging and to allow them to mop up remaining enemies, not to make them focus on using them primarily.
I'm not saying that there's nothing in the Grey Knight Codex that could use some toning down, because there is, but they're not primarily a CC army. Never have been, never will be.
Xeriapt wrote:I think daemons are at least higher than tyranids.
Tyranids at least have that all important ranged anti-tank in the form of Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, and Tyrannofexes (and in a pinch HVC units.) Daemons have Bolt of Change and the Soul Grinder whose base is so large that he'll kill himself a frustrating amount of times due to deep strike mishaps, having four options to two is better in my book.
Xeriapt wrote:I think daemons are at least higher than tyranids.
Tyranids at least have that all important ranged anti-tank in the form of Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, and Tyrannofexes (and in a pinch HVC units.) Daemons have Bolt of Change and the Soul Grinder whose base is so large that he'll kill himself a frustrating amount of times due to deep strike mishaps, having four options to two is better in my book.
I think this is where it comes down to what kind of army you're facing. In a question like this thread is asking I'd assume we're considering tournament level play, what army is the best when trying to field their best. Most armies would be fielding large amounts of vehicles in such a situation, which would then expose Daemons' weakness and put them lower than normal.
I think this is a really subjective question. I don't particularly think any army is "overpowered" in comparison with the others. I think the power levels of the various armies are all right around the same level, and that tactical skill can counteract any amount of power level discrepancy.
That being said, I've never won a game against Tyranids. I've never even seen Tyranids lose a game. On the counter side, I've never seen Grey Knights win. (Of course, we only have a single Grey Knights player around here, so that doesn't say much.) It's all very subjective.
Xeriapt wrote:I think daemons are at least higher than tyranids.
Tyranids at least have that all important ranged anti-tank in the form of Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, and Tyrannofexes (and in a pinch HVC units.) Daemons have Bolt of Change and the Soul Grinder whose base is so large that he'll kill himself a frustrating amount of times due to deep strike mishaps, having four options to two is better in my book.
Spoken like someone who obviously has no clue how Daemons actually play!
Yes, we have very limited ranged anti-tank with the S8/ap1 Bolt of Tzeentch being the better option as it comes on either jetbike riding BS4 Heralds or else BS5 MC's.
But then, we also have things like;
- Bloodthirsters who have an 18" threat range and will rip apart any tank in the game.
- Heralds of Slaanesh on chariots who throw out 7/S4 rending attacks on the charge. (and are cavalry to boot)
- Flamers of Tzeentch who can auto-glance anything on a 4+
- Fiends who are cavalry type that throw out 36/S5 rending attacks on the charge!
- Seekers who are still cavalry and have lots of pretty rending attacks. (can glance av12 and pen av10/11)
- Hounds who are S5 beasts.
- Screamers who are jetbiker melta bombs!
- Princes which are all MC's
Then the 'lesser' options being the expensive Lord of Change & Keeper of Secrets, 5-man Horror squads w/Bolt, Soul Grinders and those lovely Bloodcrushers (who honestly should only be used for such if there's absolutely no other options around...)
Oh, and deep strike deployment so really, there's no reason any tank should be able to ever outrun an angry daemon.
Opening bawkes is no more painfull for Daemons than it is for the likes of Orks. And aparently, BS2 Orks with rokkits and lots of power klaws seem to do just fine.
Xeriapt wrote:I think daemons are at least higher than tyranids.
Tyranids at least have that all important ranged anti-tank in the form of Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, and Tyrannofexes (and in a pinch HVC units.) Daemons have Bolt of Change and the Soul Grinder whose base is so large that he'll kill himself a frustrating amount of times due to deep strike mishaps, having four options to two is better in my book.
Spoken like someone who obviously has no clue how Daemons actually play!
Yes, we have very limited ranged anti-tank with the S8/ap1 Bolt of Tzeentch being the better option as it comes on either jetbike riding BS4 Heralds or else BS5 MC's.
But then, we also have things like;
- Bloodthirsters who have an 18" threat range and will rip apart any tank in the game.
- Heralds of Slaanesh on chariots who throw out 7/S4 rending attacks on the charge. (and are cavalry to boot)
- Flamers of Tzeentch who can auto-glance anything on a 4+
- Fiends who are cavalry type that throw out 36/S5 rending attacks on the charge!
- Seekers who are still cavalry and have lots of pretty rending attacks. (can glance av12 and pen av10/11)
- Hounds who are S5 beasts.
- Screamers who are jetbiker melta bombs!
- Princes which are all MC's
Then the 'lesser' options being the expensive Lord of Change & Keeper of Secrets, 5-man Horror squads w/Bolt, Soul Grinders and those lovely Bloodcrushers (who honestly should only be used for such if there's absolutely no other options around...)
Oh, and deep strike deployment so really, there's no reason any tank should be able to ever outrun an angry daemon.
Opening bawkes is no more painfull for Daemons than it is for the likes of Orks. And aparently, BS2 Orks with rokkits and lots of power klaws seem to do just fine.
Bloodthirsters can't assault out of a deep strike, are gigantic models, and can't hide in units, they've never survived to do anything in my experience.
Heralds require rending to do anything at all to vehicles, not ideal.
Seekers die to a stiff breeze and will be shot apart on arrival.
Ask Necrons how well relying on glancing hits is when killing vehicles, it's still a hail mary tactic and with the lower tier armies you should *avoid* the feth out of hail mary tactics.
Hounds are overcosted, fragile, and generally just suck.
Screamers don't have enough attacks and are glass cannons and if you're turbo-boosting with them, good luck hitting *anything.*
Princes have the same problems as blood thirsters, they will be shot to pieces.
There's a reason why Monstrous Creatures are widely regarded as sucking in 5e, it's because compared to vehicles, they are garbage for their points cost more often than not. The thing about vehicle killing is that ranged anti-vehicle is far, far better than melee anti-vehicle because it's so easy for vehicles to get saves against your melee hits by just moving.
My main concern playing Daemons is how much better it is to kill transports with ranged weapons. Almost every unit can kill a vehicle in melee be it with rending or just being big and beefy. That's great and all for killing the vehicle, but the units inside the transports are more often than not the real target. If you can't kill the transport in shooting you have to spend a turn assaulting it, leaving the unit inside free to shoot or counter assault in your opponent's turn. Even an awesome assault army like Daemons can lose a combat if they're always the ones getting charged.
Xeriapt wrote:Yeah lack of ranged anti-tank makes it hard for daemons sometimes, certainly noticed a huge difference when I started playing with my DE.
Darklance! Pew! *tank on other side of the field explodes* and I lol as I zip about firing poison at people.
And it's a damned shame that Chaos has two of the weakest armies around when they have such awesome villains as Azariah Kyras, Sindri Myr, Eliphas, Huron Blackheart, Ahzek Ahriman, Marduk, Sek, and Nemeroth.
Just listen to that...good god I get *chills* from just hearing him.
Brother Coa wrote:Grey Knights.... they are after all the ELITE of Imeprium's military. Only way to defeat them is with numbers.
Fluff is really quite irrelevant, Codex: Grey Knights is badly written, in both rules and fluff. Every army should be able to beat every army equally "easily".
1. Grey Knights
2. Space Wolves
3. Necrons
4. Imperial Guard
5. Dark Eldar
6. Orks
7. Blood Angels
8. Space Marines
9. Eldar
10. Chaos Daemons
11. Tyranids
12. Black Templars
13. Dark Angels
14. Tau
15. Chaos Space Marines
Ringer: Sisters of Battle
Personally I would rate them 1-15 as such. I can't rate Sisters of Battle as I have never fought against them. I would probably throw them in the 10-15 range though from what I have been told (closer to 10). I truly believe that, given a skilled player, the CSM Codex is harder to work with than the Tau Codex. Both are overpriced, but Tau still have a few things they can exploit or use quite well. CSMs are just all around over priced, and don't bring anything new to the table that you wouldn't expect/to work around.
Yes, we have very limited ranged anti-tank with the S8/ap1 Bolt of Tzeentch being the better option as it comes on either jetbike riding BS4 Heralds or else BS5 MC's.
Expensive compared to most anti-tank, and we can get at best 7 (4 heralds, 3 DPs) for, at cheapest. 800 points for all this anti-tank. Not counting any additional upgrades for the DP's, oh, and it's just a glorified melta gun too with 24" range, without 2D6 added to it, and far more expensive
- Bloodthirsters who have an 18" threat range and will rip apart any tank in the game.
Have fun trying to hit cruising vehicles, any Eldar type player, or a fast list will easily keep you from hitting anything except on a 6, or even just getting shot down by anti-tank weapons soon as you drop down. I still use these, and still struggle to make them work against most things (except GK, thank you for Blessing of the blood god)
- Heralds of Slaanesh on chariots who throw out 7/S4 rending attacks on the charge. (and are cavalry to boot)
Worthless, you need either heralds of Tzeentch, or something that can crunch tanks, or the fact that they only will ever hit on S4, you don't need more anti-infantry in a daemon list!
- Flamers of Tzeentch who can auto-glance anything on a 4+
Unless they return to the old glancing chart where you can actually kill something, you are paying at least 105 to "Guarantee" A vehicle glance.
- Fiends who are cavalry type that throw out 36/S5 rending attacks on the charge!
Okay these are one of the few things that work very well.
- Seekers who are still cavalry and have lots of pretty rending attacks. (can glance av12 and pen av10/11)
Who rather fragile, though these are one of the more effective units in the fast attack slot, so I actually approve of them a bit.
- Hounds who are S5 beasts.
On the charge. But nobody used these at all till the realization they can tie up force weapon users (aka, Gray Knights) at least.
- Screamers who are jetbiker melta bombs!
With one attack! Who'll likely be hitting on a 4+ or a 6! Seriously I have tried these things and unless your fighting a parking lot that doesn't move these things aren't even worth the points to set them out.
- Princes which are all MC's
I'd hope so! Wouldn't want them to be infantry. DP's are likely one of the few things we got that are good (except for some of the costs of the things anyways)
And it's a damned shame that Chaos has two of the weakest armies around when they have such awesome villains as Azariah Kyras, Sindri Myr, Eliphas, Huron Blackheart, Ahzek Ahriman, Marduk, Sek, and Nemeroth.
Brother Coa wrote:Grey Knights.... they are after all the ELITE of Imeprium's military. Only way to defeat them is with numbers.
Fluff is really quite irrelevant, Codex: Grey Knights is badly written, in both rules and fluff. Every army should be able to beat every army equally "easily".
The day all the armies of warhammer 40k become perfectly balanced against one another is the day pigs fly, fanboys start becoming reasonable, and we all bow down to our new atomic robot aztec mummy overlords.
There really is no such thing as an OP or even UP army as it is by far more about skill and even luck than it is what army is the new flavour of the month. As the old saying goes, the sharpest blade is blunt in the hands of a fool and this does ring true with 40K. Now I would consider myself a good player and I would be very confident if I were to walk into my LGS with my tau army and got challenged by some kid who has been in the hobby for a few months and has just put the last few units into his purifier spam army. Likewise, I wouldn’t break a sweat if someone with the same army as the kid but with the same experience as myself challenged me to a game (though if someone with greater skill challenged me I would maybe need pull out all the stops)
What I will say however is that some codex’s have a higher learning curb than others. Dark eldar took me a while to work out and I had to get past the fact that my raiders WERE going to bite the dust but after a few trial runs and different lists I found an army that worked for me. But in contrast, with marines I've always found it easy to make a decent list since I first started playing them. As for nids, since I've been playing from the first moment I started the hobby, I welcome all GK players to have a pop at me (they quickly learn that their force weapons and fancy armour mean nothing to a blob of stealers, while draigo/crow is rocking back and forth in a corner, crying, because the nasty brood lord looked at him funny)
You also have to take into account what type of list your building. 40K does cater to each style of player as you can make a fluffy list no matter how bad the rules for that model are or, at the opposite end of the spectrum, you can make a pretty nasty list with no regards to the fluff (see fate crusher....tzeentchs bestist herald fighting alongside the knights of khorne :3 ) and anywhere in between (especially the "ooooh shiny" lists which include all the pretty models). Now if you take your fluffly mandrake list and fight some ones tourny winning imperial guard vendetta spam army then chances are you won’t end up winning due to the poor matchup of list types but if you’re playing his fluffy, mass infantry, "lets fill the table" army then you'll stand a better chance. People complain about their tau not killing GK razor spam but I would say you’re not taking enough "split fire" broadsides and kroot balls.
There are also bad match ups as, while GW caters for everyone, it isn’t really all that balanced as....let’s face it..... GKs are pains in the back side for non-khorne daemon armies to fight just like dark eldar have the right to feel a little cocky when looking at a nidzilla list. That being said though, making a game too balanced in my mind can make it a little dull but hey that’s just me.
TL;DR it’s not the army so much as the player behind it
Except that Luck can override any amount of skill, and a crappy list will render your tactical sense largely irrelevant. What makes a codex stronger than another is how many powerful lists it can build and just how strong are said lists. The Tau codex is the weakest because it has the fewest strong lists it can build, if you aren't spamming suits and fish you may as well go home. Conversely, it actually takes effort to make a non competetive grey knights list, which is why they are considered to be far and away the strongest codex, pretty much anything you can slap together will be competetive.
DPBellathrom wrote:
There really is no such thing as an OP or even UP army as it is by far more about skill and even luck than it is what army is the new flavour of the month. As the old saying goes, the sharpest blade is blunt in the hands of a fool and this does ring true with 40K. Now I would consider myself a good player and I would be very confident if I were to walk into my LGS with my tau army and got challenged by some kid who has been in the hobby for a few months and has just put the last few units into his purifier spam army. Likewise, I wouldn’t break a sweat if someone with the same army as the kid but with the same experience as myself challenged me to a game (though if someone with greater skill challenged me I would maybe need pull out all the stops)
What I will say however is that some codex’s have a higher learning curb than others. Dark eldar took me a while to work out and I had to get past the fact that my raiders WERE going to bite the dust but after a few trial runs and different lists I found an army that worked for me. But in contrast, with marines I've always found it easy to make a decent list since I first started playing them. As for nids, since I've been playing from the first moment I started the hobby, I welcome all GK players to have a pop at me (they quickly learn that their force weapons and fancy armour mean nothing to a blob of stealers, while draigo/crow is rocking back and forth in a corner, crying, because the nasty brood lord looked at him funny)
You also have to take into account what type of list your building. 40K does cater to each style of player as you can make a fluffy list no matter how bad the rules for that model are or, at the opposite end of the spectrum, you can make a pretty nasty list with no regards to the fluff (see fate crusher....tzeentchs bestist herald fighting alongside the knights of khorne :3 ) and anywhere in between (especially the "ooooh shiny" lists which include all the pretty models). Now if you take your fluffly mandrake list and fight some ones tourny winning imperial guard vendetta spam army then chances are you won’t end up winning due to the poor matchup of list types but if you’re playing his fluffy, mass infantry, "lets fill the table" army then you'll stand a better chance. People complain about their tau not killing GK razor spam but I would say you’re not taking enough "split fire" broadsides and kroot balls.
There are also bad match ups as, while GW caters for everyone, it isn’t really all that balanced as....let’s face it..... GKs are pains in the back side for non-khorne daemon armies to fight just like dark eldar have the right to feel a little cocky when looking at a nidzilla list. That being said though, making a game too balanced in my mind can make it a little dull but hey that’s just me.
TL;DR it’s not the army so much as the player behind it
^ This.
*Finally* someone posted a response that didnt make me immediately annoyed lol. And from a fellow 'nid and dark eldar player!
GK are an elite army. They have some of the most powerful units, and they are also some of the most expensive units. Maths solved.
Saying that, there are certain *builds* that are powerful against certain armies, especially if the opponent does not know how to counter them. But these builds (draigowing in particular) are also very easily beaten by certain other armies builds. (dark lance spam?)
And so the game is played. Go figure. A lot of armies have lists that can be powerful vs certain other lists. It is the universal rock/paper/scissors that most games are made of.
Kain wrote:Except that Luck can override any amount of skill, and a crappy list will render your tactical sense largely irrelevant. What makes a codex stronger than another is how many powerful lists it can build and just how strong are said lists. The Tau codex is the weakest because it has the fewest strong lists it can build, if you aren't spamming suits and fish you may as well go home. Conversely, it actually takes effort to make a non competetive grey knights list, which is why they are considered to be far and away the strongest codex, pretty much anything you can slap together will be competetive.
oh by far luck is a huge factor (if Ran and Dom want you to loose then you'll damn well loose ) and I pretty much said that a bad list will make you work harder for a win
also, GKs have alower learning curb than others, hell most marines as they are the "starter army"
tau simply need more options like you said (to become more "viable") but that comes with updating a game. some stuff gets left in the dust while others get a new coat of paint every other day :3
I would dissagree with "it actually takes effort to make a non competetive grey knights list" as I have seen some REALLY bad ones that people have rolled out thinking they were good (I was one of those people )
OP = GK. Is there anyway to deny it? They requite almost no thought to win. cc into something and it will die for you.
Spoken like someone who does not understand how Grey Knights work. They're a short-range shooty army, not a CC army.
And yet Ward insists on giving out Force Weapons for next to nothing.
And yet they play better with a shooty list than an assaulty list. The force weapons are there to discourage the enemy from charging and to allow them to mop up remaining enemies, not to make them focus on using them primarily.
I'm not saying that there's nothing in the Grey Knight Codex that could use some toning down, because there is, but they're not primarily a CC army. Never have been, never will be.
And yet I wrote that from a tau perspective. would you not assult the tau?
The issue with Tau is not a steep learning curve or whatnot.
Tau are a shooting army. They have horrible Initiative, Weak Str and T and no CC combat ability other than Kroot which lets be honest are crap compared to a basic SM.
Most Tau players like to castle or start spread out at the back. Our movement phase involves standing still and shooting everything we have or moving sideways to avoid CC. We dont often go forward as that is suicidal for most Tau units.
So we don't do CC and we don't Move. That leaves us with one phase of the whole game, shooting.
BS3 Shooting at that. The only units with BS 4are upgraded Fire Warriors (no one takes them as you would need an Ethereal, AKA suicide) and Leaders in suits or units with TA's or ML Support..
So we dont Move, we dont CC and we miss 50% of our shots....
Also our model count is low. Meaning we cant overwhelm most armies with just mass shooting. 9 Fireknives will shoot 27 rounds costing us close to 800 pts. Half of them will miss. Down to 14 HITS for 800 pts.
Then on top of that Our XV88's cost slowed amounts of points and no one takes more than 6 in most games due to Over costed paints, the fact they are TL is moot as they are firing 6 rounds for almost 600 pts.
So add the 14 shots to our 5 hits from the XV88's and you have 19 wounds caused for 1400 pts.
That is a recipe for a shyte codex. If anyone out there can't see that Tau suck more than anyone else is just kidding themselves, just like all the GK players kid themselves that their codex is perfectly balanced.
I disagree about CSM being a bad army. While the book itself is utter garbage and the choices very limiting, CSM can build a decent list around obliterators, lash princes, berzerkers, and plague marines. It is sad that there is only one viable build for competitive play, but CSM can still compete, at least at the mid to high mid tier.
Well if you cant beat Salamanders with the GK maybe its not the codex?
Perhaps NOT standing in front of a bunch of Melta guns that reroll to hit would be a better tactic rather than claiming Salamanders are OP compared to GK.
I agree that Salamanders with Vulkan are over powered for the points cost, but are not as game breaking as most GK lists.
I have a Draigowing army with no vehicles. I just timed the charges wrong, tactical error on my part, not to mention two Drop Pod Dreads. One on T1 the other on T2. Both took a wound off Draigo and the following turn, charged. Completely tied up a ten man paladin unit for a number of turns, then Vulkan, Chaplain TH/SS Deathstar tore them apart.
Milisim wrote:Well if you cant beat Salamanders with the GK maybe its not the codex?
Perhaps NOT standing in front of a bunch of Melta guns that reroll to hit would be a better tactic rather than claiming Salamanders are OP compared to GK.
I agree that Salamanders with Vulkan are over powered for the points cost, but are not as game breaking as most GK lists.
This, twinlinking most of the best weapons the marines can get is pretty darn good, but it's not GK good. Being able to give an extra point of strength to damn near everything they can shoot gives the GKs absolutely devastating shooting. For frak's sake their stormbolters can be as strong as pulse weapons and shoot more often, and if you try to charge them, the GK's better initiative, armour saves, weapon skill, and force weapons all around will probably mean that a crap ton of your charging force will bite the bullet before even getting to swing.
OP = GK. Is there anyway to deny it? They requite almost no thought to win. cc into something and it will die for you.
Spoken like someone who does not understand how Grey Knights work. They're a short-range shooty army, not a CC army.
?? Short range? Shooty yes, short range no. Plus CC abilities better than most other armies.
GK definitely the most OP.
Relatively short range. They thrive at ranges below 24" where they can use their storm bolters and psycannons. Besides, assuming 5 halberds, 4 psycannons and a hammer on Purifiers, an equal amount of points in Black Templars Crusader Squads will match them on the charge, and Crusader Squads are overcosted at the moment. Sure, the purifiers draw when they get charged, which means they're more powerful, but they're a 5th edition Codex compared to the oldest in the game.
Charge 5 Lightning Claw Terminators into said purifiers and watch them disappear. 3 Terminators survive and dish out 12 attacks, killing 7 Purifiers. Sure, the remaining attacks might finish off another one or two Terminators. but the Terminators are almost 100 points cheaper. It's when the psycannons get to fire that the Purifiers really dominate, which only serves to reinforce my claim that they're a shooty army.
Ledabot wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
TermiesInARaider wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Ledabot wrote:
OP = GK. Is there anyway to deny it? They requite almost no thought to win. cc into something and it will die for you.
Spoken like someone who does not understand how Grey Knights work. They're a short-range shooty army, not a CC army.
And yet Ward insists on giving out Force Weapons for next to nothing.
And yet they play better with a shooty list than an assaulty list. The force weapons are there to discourage the enemy from charging and to allow them to mop up remaining enemies, not to make them focus on using them primarily.
I'm not saying that there's nothing in the Grey Knight Codex that could use some toning down, because there is, but they're not primarily a CC army. Never have been, never will be.
And yet I wrote that from a tau perspective. would you not assult the tau?
Wait, so GK are OP because they can instantly smash your stuff in assaults? Yeah, sorry, that's part of playing Tau.
Milisim wrote:They are OP because they smash EVERYONE in assaults.
Assault phase is quite important in 40k... thus dominating it is def a bonus.
The only non vehicle units I've seen that can reliably handle GKs in assault are Assault Termis, Decked out genestealers on the charge, Bloodletters on the charge, Hounds of Khorne, Wyches on the charge, Decked out Sanguinary guard with Priest, Thunderwolves with shields, Decked out wolf guard, Biker nobs, Shield Lychguard, Kitted out Wraiths, Royal court disco inferno, Bloodthirsters, Seer council +Eldrad, and Lash whip and bonesword Warriors with scything talons and Adrenal Glands.
Of these, only a few are going to walk away from being shot up with S5 stormbolters without taking hideous losses. And these are only PAGKs I'm talking about. The Warriors only win out because they cancel out the init for the PAGKs and shadow in the warp provides them some defence from force weapons, Genestealers from having similar initiative while having a crap ton of S5 rending hits with the option for rerolling ones, Wyches for their ever useful 3+ invul in CC and uber high initiative, Assault Termis only because of that 3+ save, Lychguards only because of the 4+ invul and superior toughness meaning that the GK's force weapons are only wounding on a 5+, The Royal Court disco inferno because of 3+ invuls and T5 all around means that they're not dying any time soon, and they're going to be dishing out a crap ton of S7 hits in initiative order along with mindshackle scarabs, Bloodthirster because it's not falling to the Force weapons, Hounds because the GKs can't touch them in close combat, Bloodletters due to all the S5 Power weapon attacks they can use, and even then it's dicey with their lack of grenades, inferior initiative, and only having a 5++.
Wolf guard for the same reasons as assault termis, Sanguinary again for the same reasons except they have FNP to boot, Thunderwolves because they're a bitch to kill, Biker nobs for the same reasons, though many of these are again dicey because the GKs will always be going first, And the Seer Council and Eldrad are just nasty.
Milisim wrote:They are OP because they smash EVERYONE in assaults.
Assault phase is quite important in 40k... thus dominating it is def a bonus.
The only non vehicle units I've seen that can reliably handle GKs in assault are Assault Termis, Decked out genestealers on the charge, Bloodletters on the charge, Hounds of Khorne, Wyches on the charge, Decked out Sanguinary guard with Priest, Thunderwolves with shields, Decked out wolf guard, Biker nobs, Shield Lychguard, Kitted out Wraiths, Royal court disco inferno, Bloodthirsters, Seer council +Eldrad, and Lash whip and bonesword Warriors with scything talons and Adrenal Glands.
Of these, only a few are going to walk away from being shot up with S5 stormbolters without taking hideous losses. And these are only PAGKs I'm talking about. The Warriors only win out because they cancel out the init for the PAGKs and shadow in the warp provides them some defence from force weapons, Genestealers from having similar initiative while having a crap ton of S5 rending hits with the option for rerolling ones, Wyches for their ever useful 3+ invul in CC and uber high initiative, Assault Termis only because of that 3+ save, Lychguards only because of the 4+ invul and superior toughness meaning that the GK's force weapons are only wounding on a 5+, The Royal Court disco inferno because of 3+ invuls and T5 all around means that they're not dying any time soon, and they're going to be dishing out a crap ton of S7 hits in initiative order along with mindshackle scarabs, Bloodthirster because it's not falling to the Force weapons, Hounds because the GKs can't touch them in close combat, Bloodletters due to all the S5 Power weapon attacks they can use, and even then it's dicey with their lack of grenades, inferior initiative, and only having a 5++.
Wolf guard for the same reasons as assault termis, Sanguinary again for the same reasons except they have FNP to boot, Thunderwolves because they're a bitch to kill, Biker nobs for the same reasons, though many of these are again dicey because the GKs will always be going first, And the Seer Council and Eldrad are just nasty.
Oh please, most dedicated Assault Units can take on Strike Squads and win, the guys only have 1 attack each (sorry if you're referring to Purifiers, PAGK is a bit ambiguous).
Milisim wrote:So basically you have to be special to kill a GK in CC is what your saying....
Yeah....you know it's a bad sign when many army's dedicated Close Combat units struggle with one armies most basic infantry.
The Tau have nothing to handle PAGKs in melee, the nastiest CC unit they have, the Greater Knarloc, will go down like a bitch due to force weapons.
Hormagaunts will be slaughtered, with the PAGKs better initiative, they'll cut down most of them before they can even swing, the hormas will do nothing to their armour, and then fearless will probably kill the rest.
Ork boys, the same as above except they fare a little better with T4.
Assault marines and Raptors have worse initiative and a painful lack of power weapons, they'll be slaughtered.
Bezerkers will be slaughtered for want of power weapons.
Scorpions? See above
Banshees? Dicey, they'll have a hard time wounding them.
Meganobz? No invul save and init one means they'll all die.
Lightning claw termis? Worse initative means most of them will die before they even get to swing.
mark of slaanesh lightning claw termis? Enjoy spending multiple times more points to be able to tangle with PAGKs in melee, I hope it was worth it!
Seekers? Doable, but will likely get mulched by the stormbolters.
Milisim wrote:So basically you have to be special to kill a GK in CC is what your saying....
Basically.
Granted, it's true, on a certain level, the more skilled player ALWAYS has the advantage. But, even though I presented it once, it still holds true. GK are like Cyrax from Mortal Kombat. A newb playing with Cyrax can beat a decent player with, say, scorpion, or subzero.
The problem isn't that GK are broken, it's the WAY they're broken. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that genestealers are 5 points less per model. Now, you can go and say that they're OP, and you'd be right, but they're still going to die like mooks in the face of rifleman dreads, dakka preds, ACback or bolterback spam, LRBTspam, basically anything that can put out a high volume of fire or a lot of templates. They have a counter.
GK have no immediately visable counter. They are formidable in both shooting and cc they're tough, and they've got a lot of strong powers to boot. On the semi-competitive, decent-but-not-pro level, that takes them from OP to plain old broken.
Milisim wrote:So basically you have to be special to kill a GK in CC is what your saying....
Yeah....you know it's a bad sign when many army's dedicated Close Combat units struggle with one armies most basic infantry.
The Tau have nothing to handle PAGKs in melee, the nastiest CC unit they have, the Greater Knarloc, will go down like a bitch due to force weapons.
Hormagaunts will be slaughtered, with the PAGKs better initiative, they'll cut down most of them before they can even swing, the hormas will do nothing to their armour, and then fearless will probably kill the rest.
Ork boys, the same as above except they fare a little better with T4.
Assault marines and Raptors have worse initiative and a painful lack of power weapons, they'll be slaughtered.
Bezerkers will be slaughtered for want of power weapons.
Scorpions? See above
Banshees? Dicey, they'll have a hard time wounding them.
Meganobz? No invul save and init one means they'll all die.
Lightning claw termis? Worse initative means most of them will die before they even get to swing.
mark of slaanesh lightning claw termis? Enjoy spending multiple times more points to be able to tangle with PAGKs in melee, I hope it was worth it!
Seekers? Doable, but will likely get mulched by the stormbolters.
And so on so forth.
As for paladins? Hahahahaha, good luck.
Again, define PAGK. If it's normal Strike Squads all of the things you listed will massacre them. If it's Purifiers they're expensive as hell.
Milisim wrote:So basically you have to be special to kill a GK in CC is what your saying....
Yeah....you know it's a bad sign when many army's dedicated Close Combat units struggle with one armies most basic infantry.
The Tau have nothing to handle PAGKs in melee, the nastiest CC unit they have, the Greater Knarloc, will go down like a bitch due to force weapons.
Hormagaunts will be slaughtered, with the PAGKs better initiative, they'll cut down most of them before they can even swing, the hormas will do nothing to their armour, and then fearless will probably kill the rest.
Ork boys, the same as above except they fare a little better with T4.
Assault marines and Raptors have worse initiative and a painful lack of power weapons, they'll be slaughtered.
Bezerkers will be slaughtered for want of power weapons.
Scorpions? See above
Banshees? Dicey, they'll have a hard time wounding them.
Meganobz? No invul save and init one means they'll all die.
Lightning claw termis? Worse initative means most of them will die before they even get to swing.
mark of slaanesh lightning claw termis? Enjoy spending multiple times more points to be able to tangle with PAGKs in melee, I hope it was worth it!
Seekers? Doable, but will likely get mulched by the stormbolters.
And so on so forth.
As for paladins? Hahahahaha, good luck.
Again, define PAGK. If it's normal Strike Squads all of the things you listed will massacre them. If it's Purifiers they're expensive as hell.
Expensive, yes, but, as most would argue, not expensive enough. They're a unit that can literally do everything. Yes, they're expensive, but not nearly expensive enough to give any reason not to spam the gak out of them. For the AVERAGE, non-pro, player, it can be very hard to manage your forces well enough to counter them.
Milisim wrote:So basically you have to be special to kill a GK in CC is what your saying....
Yeah....you know it's a bad sign when many army's dedicated Close Combat units struggle with one armies most basic infantry.
The Tau have nothing to handle PAGKs in melee, the nastiest CC unit they have, the Greater Knarloc, will go down like a bitch due to force weapons.
Hormagaunts will be slaughtered, with the PAGKs better initiative, they'll cut down most of them before they can even swing, the hormas will do nothing to their armour, and then fearless will probably kill the rest.
Ork boys, the same as above except they fare a little better with T4.
Assault marines and Raptors have worse initiative and a painful lack of power weapons, they'll be slaughtered.
Bezerkers will be slaughtered for want of power weapons.
Scorpions? See above
Banshees? Dicey, they'll have a hard time wounding them.
Meganobz? No invul save and init one means they'll all die.
Lightning claw termis? Worse initative means most of them will die before they even get to swing.
mark of slaanesh lightning claw termis? Enjoy spending multiple times more points to be able to tangle with PAGKs in melee, I hope it was worth it!
Seekers? Doable, but will likely get mulched by the stormbolters.
And so on so forth.
As for paladins? Hahahahaha, good luck.
Again, define PAGK. If it's normal Strike Squads all of the things you listed will massacre them. If it's Purifiers they're expensive as hell.
I'm sorry, but Purifiers are not expensive as hell compared to strike squads once you add in wargear costs
A 10 man purifier squad with 4 psycannons, 5 halbreds, and one daemon hammer
vs
10 man strike squad with 2 psycannons, 5 halbreds, one daemon hammer
The purifier is only more expensive by 15 points! And if you remove two of the cannons, 5 points less expensive.
The problem with the purifiers is that they get far cheaper costs for their main wargear, thus meaning they can really put a hurt down cheaply.
Purifiers also aren't Troops. 26 points for a model that dies just as easily as any 15- or 16-point marine in the game IS expensive as hell and ultimately what remains the weakness of Purifiers and Strike Squads.
That said, I agree completely that halberds are a bit excessive, I5 would've been more than enough, as that wouldn't have completely negated the benefit of Furious Charge on I4 models.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: I'm sorry, but Purifiers are not expensive as hell compared to strike squads once you add in wargear costs
A 10 man purifier squad with 4 psycannons, 5 halbreds, and one daemon hammer
vs
10 man strike squad with 2 psycannons, 5 halbreds, one daemon hammer
The purifier is only more expensive by 15 points! And if you remove two of the cannons, 5 points less expensive.
The problem with the purifiers is that they get far cheaper costs for their main wargear, thus meaning they can really put a hurt down cheaply.
I agree, the GK basic troops are far too expensive.
:Looks at you:
:Walks into the kitchen and checks the cabinets:
:Finding no clean glasses, reaches into the sink, turns on the hot water, and scrubs one out.:
:Fills the now clean glass with some water from the fridge:
:Re-enters the room with the glass.:
:Takes a sip thoughtfully, testing the temperature:
:Takes another sip, spraying water everywhere as a look of shock crosses his face:
"WHAT?!?"
Anyway, Tau (Only because of my lack of experience with SoB). Their anti-tank (the most vaunted ability of the Tau) is actually overcosted and harder to come by than virtually every other army in the game, bar Demons. I think. It is also paired with a BS3, making it even LESS effective, point for point. They have no reliable counter assault (The army by design has no assault, this is acceptable, but there should be some compansation for this weakness, and the strength of the shooting phase isn't sufficient.) Their survivability is passable, but not amazing when shot at, and their manuverability is decent but easy to curb (by surrounding suits, for example.) The army forces a reliance in the current meta on one particular Elite choice in order to manage vehicles, but then leaves no room for taking care of the troops that come tumbling out. The synergistic element of the army is inspiring and a step in the right direction, but is in itself overcosted and very fragile (Markerlights/pathfinders) Just a few tweeks could make it very strong without being broken. We'll see.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: I'm sorry, but Purifiers are not expensive as hell compared to strike squads once you add in wargear costs
A 10 man purifier squad with 4 psycannons, 5 halbreds, and one daemon hammer
vs
10 man strike squad with 2 psycannons, 5 halbreds, one daemon hammer
The purifier is only more expensive by 15 points! And if you remove two of the cannons, 5 points less expensive.
The problem with the purifiers is that they get far cheaper costs for their main wargear, thus meaning they can really put a hurt down cheaply.
I agree, the GK basic troops are far too expensive.
Except a max size Strike Squad with a daemon hammer and two psycannons only costs only about 30 points than a max size Tac Squad with a powerfist, metlagun, and missile launcher (20 points if you give the sarge a combi weapon). That's about 3 points more per model, and for that three points you get a power weapons that can insta gib multi wound units, a storm bolter, better mobility, two of the most powerful special weapons in the game, strength 5 in combat (and that daemon hammer makes it strength 10) , a +5 psyker defence, the ability to deep strike, and deep strikes proofs your deployment zone.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: I'm sorry, but Purifiers are not expensive as hell compared to strike squads once you add in wargear costs
A 10 man purifier squad with 4 psycannons, 5 halbreds, and one daemon hammer
vs
10 man strike squad with 2 psycannons, 5 halbreds, one daemon hammer
The purifier is only more expensive by 15 points! And if you remove two of the cannons, 5 points less expensive.
The problem with the purifiers is that they get far cheaper costs for their main wargear, thus meaning they can really put a hurt down cheaply.
I agree, the GK basic troops are far too expensive.
Except a max size Strike Squad with a daemon hammer and two psycannons only costs only about 30 points than a max size Tac Squad with a powerfist, metlagun, and missile launcher (20 points if you give the sarge a combi weapon). That's about 3 points more per model, and for that three points you get a power weapons that can insta gib multi wound units, a storm bolter, better mobility, two of the most powerful special weapons in the game, strength 5 in combat (and that daemon hammer makes it strength 10) , a +5 psyker defence, the ability to deep strike, and deep strikes proofs your deployment zone.
Skip the incredibly overcosted and pointless Power Fist and the Strike Squad is 55 points more expensive, which is enough to buy a transport for the Tac Squad. Those sorts of costs add up.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:The Tau Codex has many issues, but Railguns being overcosted is not one of them.
If you are only counting Railguns as anti tank then the army can get, at max, 9 anti tank weapons. I can get that many for DE in my heavy slots for half the cost, and it doesn't include the OTHER AT weapons I have in my elites, troops, and on transports. I was including Plasma rifles, Missle Pods (Somewhat light AT weapons) and Fusion Blasters, whose short range makes them a considerable gamble given the fragile nature of the units that can mount them.
Niiru wrote:
I agree, the GK basic troops are far too expensive.
:Looks at you:
:Walks into the kitchen and checks the cabinets:
:Finding no clean glasses, reaches into the sink, turns on the hot water, and scrubs one out.:
:Fills the now clean glass with some water from the fridge:
:Re-enters the room with the glass.:
:Takes a sip thoughtfully, testing the temperature:
:Takes another sip, spraying water everywhere as a look of shock crosses his face:
"WHAT?!?"
I was being facetious, simply because most of the arguements against GKs I read are not very well thought through, and are generally mutually exclusive from each other.
This reply, however, gave me back a small measure of faith in humanity! Thankyou.
Back to the point, Gks are expensive, and their expensive units are easy to kill by the right tactics. They are powerful, but beatable, and therefore are not overpowered.
HOWEVER, Tau and Chaos (and Eldar in fact, which is one of my armies) definately need an update to be brought up to todays standards.
Niiru wrote:
I agree, the GK basic troops are far too expensive.
:Looks at you:
:Walks into the kitchen and checks the cabinets:
:Finding no clean glasses, reaches into the sink, turns on the hot water, and scrubs one out.:
:Fills the now clean glass with some water from the fridge:
:Re-enters the room with the glass.:
:Takes a sip thoughtfully, testing the temperature:
:Takes another sip, spraying water everywhere as a look of shock crosses his face:
"WHAT?!?"
I was being facetious, simply because most of the arguements against GKs I read are not very well thought through, and are generally mutually exclusive from each other.
This reply, however, gave me back a small measure of faith in humanity! Thankyou.
Back to the point, Gks are expensive, and their expensive units are easy to kill by the right tactics. They are powerful, but beatable, and therefore are not overpowered.
HOWEVER, Tau and Chaos (and Eldar in fact, which is one of my armies) definately need an update to be brought up to todays standards.
Thanks. I've worked hard to refine the "Spit take" to an art. I figured you were being sarcastic, so I thought I'd work a little harder in my response rather than my standard "lol no you ar slow. Also Nazis."
My biggest issues with GK's (when thinking about building the army) is that the biggest trap you can fall into is during list construction. There are just SO many toys that if you pick a bunch that don't synergize well and then don't have the bodies to back them up, it could all fall apart. Unfortunately, the army plays like a "Power 9" list from Magic, and a strong Netlist will compensate a player at any level nicely who might otherwise get lost in deciphering all the available toys (and their horrific layout within the book. And I mean holy crap that layout is bad.)
While I do agree Eldar could use a little help in certain areas (mostly a points decrease here, a reworded rule there) my GF plays Eldar versus my DE. All that S6 shooting isn't weak from where I'm sitting!
Niiru wrote:They are powerful, but beatable, and therefore are not overpowered.
Not directed specifically at you Niiru, but that is why many OP/UP discussion get heated. The threshold for OPness is different for people. You still can win who rolls higher on D6 when your opponent has D100.
And it is simply not true that skill is the one and only thing why Tau or SoBs are not as often winners of tournaments as, for example: GK, SW, Orks or DE. [not saying anything about OPness of those].
Stop kidding yourself, this game is not balanced.
As for my input on the subject I'm not going to talk about codex, but the person who thought that putting something called "Psychotroke Granades" into the game should be hanged by his testicles.
DPBellathrom wrote:many of you are talking about GKs not being killable in CC and that no matter what unit you send in they will die........
GKs are very choppy units......
why not just shoot them :? last time I checked that was the best tactic against choppy units....... I mean, god help them if you have any AP2 weapons
Probably the most viable tactic, but not easy against Psybolt storbolters and autocannons. Well, that's speaking of Purifier/Psyfleman spam. I'm sure here are non-cheese GK builds.
The Grey Knight over hype is based from releases like Wolves and Angels, these releases started a paranoia that Imperial releases are OP or such, when people saw GW, a codex written by the highly incompetent Matt Ward and the internet cluster known as Blood Knight's started and continues to grow.
I don't like the fluff, the book's solid and I play Daemons.
Sisters are under supported more than they are Underpowered, and I'd say that the army is by far the worst currently out, when they had the Allies rule they where fine and could dominate the enemy but now they're just 'that' army.
Niiru wrote:They are powerful, but beatable, and therefore are not overpowered.
Not directed specifically at you Niiru, but that is why many OP/UP discussion get heated. The threshold for OPness is different for people. You still can win who rolls higher on D6 when your opponent has D100.
And it is simply not true that skill is the one and only thing why Tau or SoBs are not as often winners of tournaments as, for example: GK, SW, Orks or DE. [not saying anything about OPness of those].
Stop kidding yourself, this game is not balanced.
As for my input on the subject I'm not going to talk about codex, but the person who thought that putting something called "Psychotroke Granades" into the game should be hanged by his testicles.
This is why I specifically said Tau needed a codex update. As well as the other out of date codices. Granted I forgot about SoB, but that was just an oversight on my part.
I assume they were called Psychotroke grenades because they have psychotropic effects? Though I'm guessing you hate the effects themselves, more than the name of the grenades. I have never used these grenades so I dont know how good they really are (the one time they were used in a list, the unit they were in got destroyed by long range fire long before they got into assault range... but GK's are totally unkillable of course lol )
Anyways I shall stop posting on here until I'm in a less arguementative mood lol, I do agree that the GK codex isnt perfect, but until 6th edition comes out im going to reserve judgement. Seeing as its only a month away, I think I shall cope.
GK - Oh look, let's pay 10 points more for exactly the same unit, but with Psychic Hoods, Psychic Powers, Storm Bolters (So they can assault and shoot or shoot twice at 24") and Force Weapons.
Tau - Screw the greater good, until the next codex I'm proxying a Paladin.
Some stuff is undercosted, some abilities are to strong etc...
Mostly people when they complain lump the things together.
Which is why someone might say Nids are OP because of the Doom of Malantai being 90 pts. Or Tau are OP cause that Railgun wrecked his Land Raiders in 1 shot.
When we talk about GK, SW and BA being OP it is usually because there is more than 1-2 solid cheap units....The entire GK Codex is strong. You can argue all day about Pladins and Purifiers and the truth of it all is most Xenos would give there first born to have a stat line and abilities like EITHER of them in their army!
I dont see too many GK players looking at the Tau codex and thinking DAMN I wish I could get some Kroot for my army!
I would say that Grey Knights are a very powerful codex without too much in the way of weakness. Let's face it, even an army built from the less stellar units will be solid.
One of the ideas that intrigues me is is an army built from second/third tier Grey Knight units. Something like.
All 2+ and able to deep strike, combat squadding to maximise coverage. Not hugely impressive, I think I could get 5 full strike squads for the same price, but it would satisfy my inner terminator craving.
thats why you shoot them before they get to you .........
That's why many people think they're OP. On top of their CC capabilities, they can dakka with the best of them. Their primary weakness SHOULD be unit expense, but strong units like Purifiers and Paladins, though expensive, are not PROHIBITIVELY expensive. Why are Land Raiders a not-so-common choice? Not because they're priced to their abilities. They're priced OVER what they can do, for the sole reason of keeping people from spamming and abusing them. The same should have applied with many of the units in the GK codex. Unfortunately, it didn't.
BlapBlapBlap wrote:GK - Oh look, let's pay 10 points more for exactly the same unit, but with Psychic Hoods, Psychic Powers, Storm Bolters (So they can assault and shoot or shoot twice at 24") and Force Weapons.
If you're gonna QQ, at least get it right. They don't get Psychic Hoods and they cost a bit more than 10 points more per unit. Nice try though.
BlapBlapBlap wrote:GK - Oh look, let's pay 10 points more for exactly the same unit, but with Psychic Hoods, Psychic Powers, Storm Bolters (So they can assault and shoot or shoot twice at 24") and Force Weapons.
If you're gonna QQ, at least get it right. They don't get Psychic Hoods and they cost a bit more than 10 points more per unit. Nice try though.
10 points more. If you're going to defend a blatently over-powered codex, at least read what people say.
BlapBlapBlap wrote:GK - Oh look, let's pay 10 points more for exactly the same unit, but with Psychic Hoods, Psychic Powers, Storm Bolters (So they can assault and shoot or shoot twice at 24") and Force Weapons.
If you're gonna QQ, at least get it right. They don't get Psychic Hoods and they cost a bit more than 10 points more per unit. Nice try though.
10 points more. If you're going to defend a blatently over-powered codex, at least read what people say.
I'm starting to get the suspicion that Walrus is one of those people who insist that the game is well balanced and that the deficiences of certain armies can be easily overcome with the proper amount of skill.
BlapBlapBlap wrote:GK - Oh look, let's pay 10 points more for exactly the same unit, but with Psychic Hoods, Psychic Powers, Storm Bolters (So they can assault and shoot or shoot twice at 24") and Force Weapons.
If you're gonna QQ, at least get it right. They don't get Psychic Hoods and they cost a bit more than 10 points more per unit. Nice try though.
10 points more. If you're going to defend a blatently over-powered codex, at least read what people say.
...that's what I said. Maybe you should take your own advice to heart?
Kain wrote:
Joey wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
BlapBlapBlap wrote:GK - Oh look, let's pay 10 points more for exactly the same unit, but with Psychic Hoods, Psychic Powers, Storm Bolters (So they can assault and shoot or shoot twice at 24") and Force Weapons.
If you're gonna QQ, at least get it right. They don't get Psychic Hoods and they cost a bit more than 10 points more per unit. Nice try though.
10 points more. If you're going to defend a blatently over-powered codex, at least read what people say.
I'm starting to get the suspicion that Walrus is one of those people who insist that the game is well balanced and that the deficiences of certain armies can be easily overcome with the proper amount of skill.
The Grey Knight Codex is too powerful, but I don't see the point in complaining about the stuff that doesn't make it so. I'd agree wholeheartedly with anyone complaining about halberds, psychotroke grenades, cleansing flame or Psyflemen, for example.
Defeatmyarmy wrote:Oh come now, GK are not OP, I tie them everytime with my Wraithweinies lol.
Personal anectdotes=/=Evidence as to whether a codex is overpowered or not. This is the realm of list and mathammer, and the grey knights dominate in both. I6 is murderlicious on basic infantry with force weapons and multiple attacks each. And that's just the start of things.
The Grey Knight Codex is too powerful, but I don't see the point in complaining about the stuff that doesn't make it so. I'd agree wholeheartedly with anyone complaining about halberds, psychotroke grenades, cleansing flame or Psyflemen, for example.
Sadly enough, the only reason Halberds are actually OP is because the purifiers get them at the cheap rate of 2 per model, while Strike Squads get them at 10 per model, thus the reasoning that purifiers are cheaper than actual strike squads once kitted out. Cleansing flame is just the added cake.
Psyflemen were a horrible, horrible mistake. 4 S8 Twin linked shots? At only How much? On a platform that'll resist shaken/stunning on How good an odds? And it's not much more expensive than any of the power armored codexs!?
Defeatmyarmy wrote:Oh come now, GK are not OP, I tie them everytime with my Wraithweinies lol.
Personal anectdotes=/=Evidence as to whether a codex is overpowered or not. This is the realm of list and mathammer, and the grey knights dominate in both. I6 is murderlicious on basic infantry with force weapons and multiple attacks each. And that's just the start of things.
Since when are Purifiers basic infantry though? Last I looked they were elites unless you take Crowe.
Defeatmyarmy wrote:Oh come now, GK are not OP, I tie them everytime with my Wraithweinies lol.
Personal anectdotes=/=Evidence as to whether a codex is overpowered or not. This is the realm of list and mathammer, and the grey knights dominate in both. I6 is murderlicious on basic infantry with force weapons and multiple attacks each. And that's just the start of things.
Since when are Purifiers basic infantry though? Last I looked they were elites unless you take Crowe.
Strike squads can take Halberds to get an initiative better than most other units do when they charge.
Defeatmyarmy wrote:Oh come now, GK are not OP, I tie them everytime with my Wraithweinies lol.
Personal anectdotes=/=Evidence as to whether a codex is overpowered or not. This is the realm of list and mathammer, and the grey knights dominate in both. I6 is murderlicious on basic infantry with force weapons and multiple attacks each. And that's just the start of things.
Since when are Purifiers basic infantry though? Last I looked they were elites unless you take Crowe.
Strike squads can take Halberds to get an initiative better than most other units do when they charge.
Strike Squads also have 1 attack each. Any dedicated melee unit stands a good chance of killing a Strike Squad in melee, it's when you get Purifiers with halberds that things start to look bleak, although far from impossible.
BlapBlapBlap wrote:GK - Oh look, let's pay 10 points more for exactly the same unit, but with Psychic Hoods, Psychic Powers, Storm Bolters (So they can assault and shoot or shoot twice at 24") and Force Weapons.
If you're gonna QQ, at least get it right. They don't get Psychic Hoods and they cost a bit more than 10 points more per unit. Nice try though.
Well, fine. It looks like Psychic Hoods on the models to me.
And in the case of Strike Squads, that's accurate compared to Tacs.
BlapBlapBlap wrote:GK - Oh look, let's pay 10 points more for exactly the same unit, but with Psychic Hoods, Psychic Powers, Storm Bolters (So they can assault and shoot or shoot twice at 24") and Force Weapons.
If you're gonna QQ, at least get it right. They don't get Psychic Hoods and they cost a bit more than 10 points more per unit. Nice try though.
Well, fine. It looks like Psychic Hoods on the models to me.
You really, really need to stop inventing stuff. Yes, they have what "looks" to be like Psychic hoods on models. They obviously haven't got Psychic hoods though, which you had known if you had bothered to spend few minutes researching it.
BlapBlapBlap wrote:And in the case of Strike Squads, that's accurate compared to Tacs.
Except it's not accurate comparison. Un-kitted 10 man Strike squad is 200 points. 10 man Tactical squad is 170 points and has free flamer and heavy bolter/MM/missile launcher.
Yes, it is true for 5 man squad, but 5 man tac squads are overcosted heavily.
Note: Purifier weapon options are obviously heavily undercosted. Same goes for Psybolt ammo on dreads. They're not alone in this: GH, Wraiths, Scarabs and Missile Launcher Long Fangs are all units that everyone agrees to be heavily undercosted.
BlapBlapBlap wrote:GK - Oh look, let's pay 10 points more for exactly the same unit, but with Psychic Hoods, Psychic Powers, Storm Bolters (So they can assault and shoot or shoot twice at 24") and Force Weapons.
If you're gonna QQ, at least get it right. They don't get Psychic Hoods and they cost a bit more than 10 points more per unit. Nice try though.
Well, fine. It looks like Psychic Hoods on the models to me.
You really, really need to stop inventing stuff. Yes, they have what "looks" to be like Psychic hoods on models. They obviously haven't got Psychic hoods though, which you had known if you had bothered to spend few minutes researching it.
You really, really need to stop getting worked up over little points. I don't play GK. I don't know. But now I do, OK?
Luide wrote:
BlapBlapBlap wrote:And in the case of Strike Squads, that's accurate compared to Tacs
Except it's not accurate comparison. Un-kitted 10 man Strike squad is 200 points. 10 man Tactical squad is 170 points and has free flamer and heavy bolter/MM/missile launcher.
Yes, it is true for 5 man squad, but 5 man tac squads are overcosted heavily.
Note: Purifier weapon options are obviously heavily undercosted. Same goes for Psybolt ammo on dreads. They're not alone in this: GH, Wraiths, Scarabs and Missile Launcher Long Fangs are all units that everyone agrees to be heavily undercosted.
Fine, fine. You win. The point I was making is that a GK has far better equipment than a regular marine, yet without the premium price tag that should come along with such things. You're still paying 30pts extra for Storm Bolters, Power Weapons and Psyker abilities. So that's 3pts a model more for that much more.
Whowhoa, you're right, dude. And Luide wasn't disagreeing with your main point, he was nit-picking detail errors is all. Luide isn't saying GK is not overpowered, unless he's debating the definition of "overpowered".
GK is overpowered, because their effectiveness doesn't have a counter - they're good in all situations. They do get amazing abilities for virtually free, whatever the details are. We could go into the "undercosted" units listed but it's obvious they have counters the GK units don't.
Whowhoa, you're right, dude. And Luide wasn't disagreeing with your main point, he was nit-picking detail errors is all. Luide isn't saying GK is not overpowered, unless he's debating the definition of "overpowered".
GK is overpowered, because their effectiveness doesn't have a counter - they're good in all situations. They do get amazing abilities for virtually free, whatever the details are. We could go into the "undercosted" units listed but it's obvious they have counters the GK units don't.
Countrary to popular belief, dedicated assault units maul Purifiers quite badly unless the Purifiers ignore taking Psycannons, which means they're losing against shooty enemies instead. Assuming the standard loadout of 5 Halberds, 1 hammer and 4 cannon a 30-man boyz squad will actually win combat if they get the charge off, as will a whole lot of other units. The issue is getting the charge before you're shot to pieces.
Whowhoa, you're right, dude. And Luide wasn't disagreeing with your main point, he was nit-picking detail errors is all. Luide isn't saying GK is not overpowered, unless he's debating the definition of "overpowered".
GK is overpowered, because their effectiveness doesn't have a counter - they're good in all situations. They do get amazing abilities for virtually free, whatever the details are. We could go into the "undercosted" units listed but it's obvious they have counters the GK units don't.
Countrary to popular belief, dedicated assault units maul Purifiers quite badly unless the Purifiers ignore taking Psycannons, which means they're losing against shooty enemies instead. Assuming the standard loadout of 5 Halberds, 1 hammer and 4 cannon a 30-man boyz squad will actually win combat if they get the charge off, as will a whole lot of other units. The issue is getting the charge before you're shot to pieces.
Point is, possibly losing to a 30-man boyz squad in CC is actually pretty darn good. Sometimes better than any unit in another army's codex.
You see that "heavily undercosted" Wriath dedicated CC unit up there Luide was pointing out? The one that comes in at 45pts per model w/whip coils? That's the best CC unit in my army. It can't touch the boyz unit. If your Purifier unit can beat it, in CC, it's a CC unit. The problem is that it not only can beat the Wraiths too, it'll shoot them (or something else it chooses) to shreds before making contact.
Whowhoa, you're right, dude. And Luide wasn't disagreeing with your main point, he was nit-picking detail errors is all. Luide isn't saying GK is not overpowered, unless he's debating the definition of "overpowered".
GK is overpowered, because their effectiveness doesn't have a counter - they're good in all situations. They do get amazing abilities for virtually free, whatever the details are. We could go into the "undercosted" units listed but it's obvious they have counters the GK units don't.
Countrary to popular belief, dedicated assault units maul Purifiers quite badly unless the Purifiers ignore taking Psycannons, which means they're losing against shooty enemies instead. Assuming the standard loadout of 5 Halberds, 1 hammer and 4 cannon a 30-man boyz squad will actually win combat if they get the charge off, as will a whole lot of other units. The issue is getting the charge before you're shot to pieces.
Point is, possibly losing to a 30-man boyz squad in CC is actually pretty darn good. Sometimes better than any unit in another army's codex.
You see that "heavily undercosted" Wriath dedicated CC unit up there Luide was pointing out? The one that comes in at 45pts per model w/whip coils? That's the best CC unit in my army. It can't touch the boyz unit. If your Purifier unit can beat it, in CC, it's a CC unit. The problem is that it not only can beat the Wraiths too, it'll shoot them (or something else it chooses) to shreds before making contact.
Unfortunately for the boyz after one round of shooting with four psycannons and 6 stormbolters, plus cleansing flame which always goes before the boyz, there will be maybe 10 boyz left to attack. No way they win against 10 purifiers.
To be fair, 30 (nob w/pk) boyz (215 points) vs 10 purifiers (295 points) isn't what I'd call a "fair" comparison.
Lets take more even comparison: 5 Purifiers (2x Psycannon, 2x halberd, Hammer) vs 19 orks (nob with PK) is the correct one.
I'm assuming that orks either take one round of shooting with no cover or 2 rounds of shooting with cover,
This leaves 12.6 orks left. Orks move closer, shoot pistols and kill 0.7 purifiers. Then they charge.
1) Purifiers use CC. 5.2 wounds, one is allocated to the nob. 4 Boyz die (4.3 - vs 8.2 left)
2) Halberds hit. 1 Boy dies (4.3 vs 7.2 left)
3) Boyz and Psycannons hit simultaneously. 0.5 boyz die and 2.33 marines die. (2 vs 6.7 left).
4) Hammer and PK hit at same time. 0.8 boyz and 1.7 marines die.
End of the fight, there is 0.3 Purifiers and 5.9 boyz left. As far as points go, this is even trade.
Now, what is true is that as the number of attacking orks increase, CF gets better So two 19 man mobs charging 10 man purifier squad will end in loss for boys. On average, there will be 1 purifier and 6 orks left standing and orks will fail their LD result.
Edit: This doesn't mean Purifiers aren't undercosted. They're able to handle very large range of threats and CF makes it practically impossible to steamroll them with hordes.
But people seem to have this "belief" that all GK units are as good as Purifiers in CC which is obviously not true. 5 man strike squad has 5 power weapon attacks and 1 normal attack when charged. Charging 5 man assault squad has 4 power weapon attacks and 12 normal attacks (total 8 power weapon attack equivalent).
Again, you're picking nits, not objecting to the main point.
To reiterate, that's that the Purifiers are representative of why the GK codex fits for "which army is the most OP and UP" here. You're not actually arguing against that, are you?
The secondary point is that GK (and Purifiers) have very little rock/paper/scissors weakness. The secondary point in other words is that if a unit can be thrown into comparison with a boyz dedicated assault unit, it's a *good* CC unit. If it can stop a MSU's transport with its integral weaponry, it's a *good* AT unit. If it can stand off and focus fire with a couple of its buddies on a dedicated CC deathstar effectively, it's a *good* fire unit. And if you can dump it in an armored box & whip it around w/some cheap Henchman dude in another box, teaming up for self-covering, meanwhile pew pewing out the hatch w/the psycannon, thumbing your nose at stuns and shakes, it's a good unit that benefits from a good codex. It's not one good unit in a vacuum, in other words. It's representative.
Hmmmm....... I would have to say Grey Knights or mabye Space Puppys (Wolves) Or Vampire marines (Blood Angels)
In Apoc I would say vanilla marines.
I think that most wardian codexes are just OP or UP thanks to his thoughts on certain creatures. (Daemons)
This is a page however that I think is risky to talk about.
Also I know space wolves are not wardian, they are by Wards Wife Gram McNiel........stick to books Gram.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kain wrote:
Joey wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
BlapBlapBlap wrote:GK - Oh look, let's pay 10 points more for exactly the same unit, but with Psychic Hoods, Psychic Powers, Storm Bolters (So they can assault and shoot or shoot twice at 24") and Force Weapons.
If you're gonna QQ, at least get it right. They don't get Psychic Hoods and they cost a bit more than 10 points more per unit. Nice try though.
10 points more. If you're going to defend a blatently over-powered codex, at least read what people say.
I'm starting to get the suspicion that Walrus is one of those people who insist that the game is well balanced and that the deficiences of certain armies can be easily overcome with the proper amount of skill.
Yes he is. Ive been seeing his name pop up on alot of these fighting pages.
Luide wrote:To be fair, 30 (nob w/pk) boyz (215 points) vs 10 purifiers (295 points) isn't what I'd call a "fair" comparison.
Lets take more even comparison: 5 Purifiers (2x Psycannon, 2x halberd, Hammer) vs 19 orks (nob with PK) is the correct one.
I'm assuming that orks either take one round of shooting with no cover or 2 rounds of shooting with cover,
This leaves 12.6 orks left. Orks move closer, shoot pistols and kill 0.7 purifiers. Then they charge.
1) Purifiers use CC. 5.2 wounds, one is allocated to the nob. 4 Boyz die (4.3 - vs 8.2 left)
2) Halberds hit. 1 Boy dies (4.3 vs 7.2 left)
3) Boyz and Psycannons hit simultaneously. 0.5 boyz die and 2.33 marines die. (2 vs 6.7 left).
4) Hammer and PK hit at same time. 0.8 boyz and 1.7 marines die.
End of the fight, there is 0.3 Purifiers and 5.9 boyz left. As far as points go, this is even trade.
Now, what is true is that as the number of attacking orks increase, CF gets better So two 19 man mobs charging 10 man purifier squad will end in loss for boys. On average, there will be 1 purifier and 6 orks left standing and orks will fail their LD result.
Edit: This doesn't mean Purifiers aren't undercosted. They're able to handle very large range of threats and CF makes it practically impossible to steamroll them with hordes.
But people seem to have this "belief" that all GK units are as good as Purifiers in CC which is obviously not true. 5 man strike squad has 5 power weapon attacks and 1 normal attack when charged. Charging 5 man assault squad has 4 power weapon attacks and 12 normal attacks (total 8 power weapon attack equivalent).
my problem with this is that you have one of the most assault oriented units in game that are practically useless in shooting surviving a combat with 1/4 of their number which makes them easy to shoot and cause them to run and never come back wheres the purifiers can do some actual damage shooting or in assault
G00fySmiley wrote:my problem with this is that you have one of the most assault oriented units in game that are practically useless in shooting surviving a combat with 1/4 of their number which makes them easy to shoot and cause them to run and never come back wheres the purifiers can do some actual damage shooting or in assault
I don't read that example as anything but an illustration that a GK Purifier *can*, under contrived conditions, lose to a boyz unit. In real life the Purifiers will stalk and butcher the orks - they have the range advantage, they can dictate engagement terms. They can force the orks to move out of cover into fire, there's no way the orks get the charge b/c the Purifiers can advance, fire, and assault in the merge if they choose, they can take "a step back" and continue to fire if they choose, and the most likely scenario is they'll take advantage of being a midrange shooty codex and simply focus-fire with their friends, rendering the orky CC units combat ineffective while taking no losses themselves. At all.
That's perhaps the first time I'd see someone saying that, I'd think necrons would be the most OP what with scarabs and Imhotek "I BRING THE LIGHTNING".
BlapBlapBlap wrote:GK - Oh look, let's pay 10 points more for exactly the same unit, but with Psychic Hoods, Psychic Powers, Storm Bolters (So they can assault and shoot or shoot twice at 24") and Force Weapons.
If you're gonna QQ, at least get it right. They don't get Psychic Hoods and they cost a bit more than 10 points more per unit. Nice try though.
10 points more. If you're going to defend a blatently over-powered codex, at least read what people say.
I'm starting to get the suspicion that Walrus is one of those people who insist that the game is well balanced and that the deficiences of certain armies can be easily overcome with the proper amount of skill.
Yes he is. Ive been seeing his name pop up on alot of these fighting pages.
Reading comprehension will do you good in life, I suggest you try to use some in the future. Doesn't apply if you didn't even bother to read my response though.
There's no such thing as an overpowered Codex. Some Codexes are easier to play than others, but no Codex as a whole is inherently overpowered or underpowered. Well, except Tau. They're badly in need of an update.
AnomanderRake wrote:There's no such thing as an overpowered Codex. Some Codexes are easier to play than others, but no Codex as a whole is inherently overpowered or underpowered. Well, except Tau. They're badly in need of an update.
That's perhaps the first time I'd see someone saying that, I'd think necrons would be the most OP what with scarabs and Imhotek "I BRING THE LIGHTNING".
And Pylons, good god those things are absolute murdermachines. And of course the ever hated monolith phalanx. What's that? You're saying that my troops reviving on a 2+ is cheese? Well here, have doomsday monolith pieplates to the face.
AnomanderRake wrote:There's no such thing as an overpowered Codex. Some Codexes are easier to play than others, but no Codex as a whole is inherently overpowered or underpowered. Well, except Tau. They're badly in need of an update.
I guess that depends on your definition of "over/under-powered", however I think it is difficult to say with a straight face that some armies do not have marked advantages over others assuming even commanders, there's a difference between being "harder to play" (e.g. Dark Eldar) and being outdated or underpowered (e.g. Eldar at the current time). Does this mean that the differences are insurmountable? No, but it does mean that, all things being equal, it's not an even playing field, which is what most would consider over/under-powered. It is difficult to accept for example, that Chaos Space Marines are just as capable as say, Space Wolves, which have many very identical units but are in general cheaper and have more wargear/special rules.
BlapBlapBlap wrote:GK - Oh look, let's pay 10 points more for exactly the same unit, but with Psychic Hoods, Psychic Powers, Storm Bolters (So they can assault and shoot or shoot twice at 24") and Force Weapons.
If you're gonna QQ, at least get it right. They don't get Psychic Hoods and they cost a bit more than 10 points more per unit. Nice try though.
10 points more. If you're going to defend a blatently over-powered codex, at least read what people say.
I'm starting to get the suspicion that Walrus is one of those people who insist that the game is well balanced and that the deficiences of certain armies can be easily overcome with the proper amount of skill.
Yes he is. Ive been seeing his name pop up on alot of these fighting pages.
Reading comprehension will do you good in life, I suggest you try to use some in the future. Doesn't apply if you didn't even bother to read my response though.
Alright, calm down now, let's not go for the throat by attacking ones English skills.
I don't think any army is specifically over powered. I do think some armies desperately need updates: Tau, Eldar, CSM
Since the question was which is the MOST op, i would say Space Wolves just compared to the other SM armies. Underpowered would be tau. So many of their army choices are simply not competitive.
Out of the recently updated armies i would say nids have it pretty bad.
I think one of the undermetioned armies for weak in this thread are chaos marines. It doesn't seem to matter which brand or god they all seem to be hideously weak especailly against my deathwing
I wouldnt say their are OP and UP codex, yes some need updates but a quick FaQ could fix that.
Just look at the history of the game, each new rule set will give some sort of benefit to each army. 5th ed is all about power armour and tanks, this = marines.
4th was a whole different ball game and chaos were the kings, nids before them in 3rd.
I really do think it comes down to the ruleset and luck of the dice in the end game.
GimlisonofGloin wrote:I wouldnt say their are OP and UP codex, yes some need updates but a quick FaQ could fix that.
Just look at the history of the game, each new rule set will give some sort of benefit to each army. 5th ed is all about power armour and tanks, this = marines.
4th was a whole different ball game and chaos were the kings, nids before them in 3rd.
I really do think it comes down to the ruleset and luck of the dice in the end game.
Eldar were pretty up there the entire time, probably at the top at the end of 3E (Craftworld Eldar rules) and the end of 4E (Hooray Skimmerspam!). Nids weren't really a huge deal until the Nidzilla of their 4E book.
Trying to play IG against anything Eldar up until 5E was...not fun
4th was a whole different ball game and chaos were the kings, nids before them in 3rd.
I'm sorry but what? Did you play 4th edition? 4th edition was the "Skimmers are EPIC AWESOME" edition, where Tri-falcon Eldar and Fish of Fury Tau ruled the day and night respectively.
Nids were just taking second place in 4th
Trying to play IG against anything Eldar up until 5E was...not fun
IG was horrible for a long time, I feel for them getting their cheese at last, but it aint pretty still.
The thing about GK is that they can counter nearly everything in the game.
Want to Scout on them since you got first turn. Ain't gonna happen because they put down a couple of cheap markers.
How about Deep Strike? Nope, that's an automatic mishap if you try to deep strike near them.
OK, let's psychic them to death. Oh wait, all psychic tests at -4 because they have a backfield of four psifleman dreads. With a row of Psybolter razorbacks in front of them
As already mentioned, they can outshoot any assaulty army and out assault any shooty army. Hell, most of the time they outshoot my IG, which are supposed to BE a shooty army.
Then you add in their own psychic abilities that allow their vehicles to pretty much ignore shaken/stunned, increase their strength in hth, make all their NFW wounds Instant Death, and so on and so on and so on.
The only thing they have that is close to a weakness is that they have problems dealing with AV 14 vehicles. Well, until they assault them.......................................
Makes it possible, but it's no melta. Meltagun at 12" has over the chance of destroying LR than stationary Psycannon and over 4 times the chance over moving Psycannon.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:Melta warriors
Only on Coteaz lists, but there you will see lot of them. Coteaz lists have no problem whatsover with AV14. When later I'm talking about GK, assume I'm not talking about Coteaz Henchman armies.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:2D6 penetration roll with rerolls on the damage chart
Pray tell me, what GK unit gets re-rolls on damage chart on enemies? (Hint: Greatsword doesn't)
Only thing in Codex that mentions damage chart as far as I can see is Venerable Dreadnought...
But personally I think that GK has enough tools that it won't crumple over AV14. 5-man Non-moving Purifier squad handles LR just as well as tactical combat squad with single melta does. Same goes for paladins (except they can move). If you're using strikes or normal termies, you just need to double the numbers.
GK definitely don't handle AV14 as well as many other armies do, but they have to have some weaknesses.
My guess is that when 6th edition comes, there will be some penalty for multiple shaken/stunned results which means Fortitude will drop in value and Necron Living Metal will get relatively better.
Which they really need, everyone knows that Necrons are tier 3 army at best, as you can see from their current tournament records
Fake-edit: For the sarcasm-impaired among you, Necrons are definitely tier 1 army with multiple undercosted units (Wraiths, Scarabs, Lord on CBC/Scythe just to name few) . I guess reason why they're not cried out for being OP is that they're harder for newbies to play.
I'm in a good posistion where i'm the one that knows the rules better than the gk player. in his defence, he was playing them before they turned....interesting.
Luide wrote:[My guess is that when 6th edition comes, there will be some penalty for multiple shaken/stunned results which means Fortitude will drop in value and Necron Living Metal will get relatively better.
Which they really need, everyone knows that Necrons are tier 3 army at best, as you can see from their current tournament records
Fake-edit: For the sarcasm-impaired among you, Necrons are definitely tier 1 army with multiple undercosted units (Wraiths, Scarabs, Lord on CBC/Scythe just to name few) . I guess reason why they're not cried out for being OP is that they're harder for newbies to play.
Necrons OP? Dude, are you having trouble beating Necrons with your army? You're probably just doing something wrong, I see this a lot with people who aren't used to them - they have "tricks", but once you understand the counters to their tactics a GK army shouldn't lose to them. (Might tie.)
i was just wondering, what would be the most 
pretty 
.
)
known as Blood Knight's started and continues to grow. 
