Hi all!



With our upcoming wargame, Warthrone, round the corner, Avatars of War has switched from doing only heroes, to developing full fantasy armies.

AoW is still a small company and developing a full fantasy army is a very big project. Thanks to the development of the WarCast medium, we can create multipart plastic regiments with a very reasonable investment, however, our investing capability allows us to sculpt and produce only a small fraction of what would be a totally complete Dwarf army.

We have created the Dwarf Army funding campaign with the goal of being able to create and release an awesome & complete full Dwarf Army!

If you'd like to help us with the Dwarf Army project check out the Dwarf Army funding campign at Indiegogo.com here:
http://www.indiegogo.com/aow-dwarfs?a=586327

Thanks so much!
AoW Team

For some bizarre reason indiegogo is work blocked, but I'll have a look after work.

If I would back such a project or not relies totally on warthrone as I no longer play Warhammer fantasy, but in general, colour me interested.

As long as you have fixed you shipping/production problems with your previous work......


Although I must say, while dumping $25 for 10 models aint bad, I find it a bit hard to invest too much into this. All we have so far is just concept art. Not saying you are bad at translating concept art into actual models, but some people might not want to jump into the larger investments without anything physical for representation (such as 3 Ups/Renders) beyond your current selection

kenshin620 wrote:As long as you have fixed you shipping/production problems with your previous work......

That's the BIG 'if' for me.

IF they have, I'm in.

Not sure what assurance we'll be given though...

Hmm... If Avatars of War had shares available (as a private company), I would definitely put some money in.

As it is, I am loathe to put money into this where it could be tied up for over a year depending on what I want off the list and how quickly he actually produces everything and gets it for sale. This is a time value of money issue really for me.


No offence to Felix, but could he not take small bank loans every 4 months say and do this in stages?

I wouldn't be surprised if they're already doing that and use this as *another* avenue of fundraising.

What the hell is with all these kickstarters lately? Fools and their money parted....

Grimstonefire wrote:No offence to Felix, but could he not take small bank loans every 4 months say and do this in stages?

Spain's banks' are going to the dogs sadly I'm not sure he would get a loan right now or even in the short term future the interest rate for short term loans are ridiculous atm.

Kurgash wrote:What the hell is with all these kickstarters lately? Fools and their money parted....

What are you talking about?

Do you have links to any projects that people have talked about here that have turned out to be scams?

Kurgash wrote:What the hell is with all these kickstarters lately? Fools and their money parted....

Makes me question all these 'low price' model companies who can't seem to make enough profit to re-invest into their own company to make new products. Asking the customer to assume all the risk while they get all the potential profit is a business model I was not aware worked because customers should be smarter than that.

I do not pre-pay for product and I will definitely not promise money to fund the R&D and production of the product I have pre-paid for.

Make a product I want to buy and ship it to me quickly and I will give you my hard earned money.

I see.

Well, that's the beauty of Kickstarter and Indiegogo - if you don't like the project and are worried about the 'risks', don't back it!

It is a great system!

People can get early copies, free stuff, etc. if they want, and those that don't, won't!

Good luck with it guys! That is some truly fantastic artwork you are showing there!

Some decent deals, but I have no use for fantasy dwarfs.

Well your minis are always very well sculpted, so I'm ever so slightly intrigued. Hope you manage to get it off the ground.

nkelsch wrote:

Kurgash wrote:What the hell is with all these kickstarters lately? Fools and their money parted....

Makes me question all these 'low price' model companies who can't seem to make enough profit to re-invest into their own company to make new products. Asking the customer to assume all the risk while they get all the potential profit is a business model I was not aware worked because customers should be smarter than that.

I do not pre-pay for product and I will definitely not promise money to fund the R&D and production of the product I have pre-paid for.

Make a product I want to buy and ship it to me quickly and I will give you my hard earned money.

I think you do not understand how business actually runs. Before anything happens - it needs to be funded (well except for internet start ups where everyone thing thinks they have a pot of gold). Maybe $56k is pocket change but to small companies, who might have a monthly expense cost of $5k to $10k...6 months to a year's worth of cost is a big deal. So finding capital is hard.

Kickstarter is capital investment for the kitchen, small change that no bank will touch (because they will not make any money on it) but is worth it to 'investors' who might get products they want.

This wouldn't happen unless we are willing to help fund the effort. It's that simple.

BTW - contributed. Already bought your berserkers and they are phenonmenal. So more dwarfs of the same quality sign me up...

And besides that, really nkelsch, noone is making you buy *anything* and as you might notice there's plenty of us who love this kind of funding and community involvement. Of course you're entitled to your opinion but generally, when I see something I don't like or don't have interest in, it just doesn't get my money. this doesn't hurt you in any way, why the harsh response? rly, the interwebs....

I feel that AoW is one of the few smaller companies producing a quality line of mini's for fantasy at reasonable prices.
With GW's prices constantly going up and my income being pretty much static,these alternative mini's and games are exactly what i need.

Would LOVE to see AoW producing a whole Dwarf army, as I've had the basis of a tiny GW one for ever now, and it'd be nice to expand it with elites (that I won't buy from GW in Metal, or at eventual Goldsword pricing when/if they come out in plastic). And AoW are pretty much the only non-GW company that matches GW style.

BUT

I'm a bit confused by the listing. Are all the dwarfs in the "planned" category already funded and in development? OR are they what get covered by the initial 20,000?

And then the stuff with the $ amount next to it are stretch goals above and beyond that first $20k?

Either way - great news. Good to see AoW growing enough that they can start producing armies. (Which they were well enough on their way already, but this could speed it up quite a bit).

A good week for Kickstarters for the mini industry. I wonder if they all purposely planned it for a time when GW customers would be the most disgruntled? Cause that's really smart if they did.

I don't think it could be possibly "planned in advance" but it is certainly a good time to offer a quality alternative to GW!

Alpharius wrote:I don't think it could be possibly "planned in advance" but it is certainly a good time to offer a quality alternative to GW!

Why not? The GW summer price rise kicks in every year around June 1st.

I just read in the Farmer's Almanac "When GW prices do rise, it's time to plant your corn."

Not a dwarf fan (fine models though) but once you get to the ogres I'm all in!

I am gonna hold out for the bit, after pledging 200 already today on mantic and sedation and its gonna be a tight weekend cause these all hit at the same time.

If it gets closer at the end, I will probably be in though.

If I had any money to invest I would as your work is great. I do hope that you get the project off the ground as well as your army of the apocalypse, and at a better price than GW's regiments.
Please do not go down that road, your characters are about the same at the moment, but would love to see them in your warcast too for the cost.

Also any previews or anything on the rules to see if it is a system I as a gamer would play? When selling to gamers, show them it is something they would want, they will come to you

I'm seriously tempted to chip in on this.

You guys produce the best traditional fantasy dwarves on the market - bar none.

I wish AoW had waited a few weeks... My budget already went to some other company's kickstarter.

Dwarfs vs werewolves in the same month? My poor wallet!

Would be great to see sketches of the Living Ancestor before I throw my money into the ring. Would also like to see the crossbows, the wallet is sitting precariously on the fence at the moment.

Still weird that they plan a whole new Warcast Dwarven Army when their Warcast manufacturing capacity is not even capable to fill the current orders of just one kit for months, let alone produce enough for offering them to distributors.

Guess they would already have had enough money when they followed their 2 year old plan to release plastic Witch Elves, a market that Raging Heroes has now served with enormous success.

Perhaps they plan to use part of the investment to increase their Warcast production capactiy?

Still - I've noticed the AoW-gogo isn't exactly setting the world on fire. And I think you've touched on part of the problem - we have no timetable for any of this. The page already listed a half-dozen units in the "planed" stage - then there's a dozen more to raise funds for. Even if they get all the money - it's going to take ages for these to all come out.

Plus Indiegogo being not as popular, and people being tapped out from supporting Sedition Wars and Mantic (not to mention Ogre and Zombicide not all that long ago).

And I think TBH - the rewards are a little lacking. For a little over $40 you can order the current Warcast kits (with free shipping if you buy two or more). Yet the first reward level is $25 for 10 (plus $5 shipping), and it only gets slightly better from there.

Yeah, that's the problem for me- mikhaila actually carries the dwarf unit in his store (or did last time I was up there) and I don't think it cost more than doing this plus paying for shipping...

I really think they should have waited until their warcast issues were worked out... this would have tempted me!

But I agree that perhaps they were/are hoping to use this to buy a better machine to cast with... I don't think they're going to reach the goal, though. Better to deliver on the outstanding warcast orders, then do this again.

I sponsored -- I'd like to see more competitors to GW (other than just Mantic), and I love the style of the AOW dwarves.

Not too fussed about Dwarves. I'll be back if he does Chaos or Dark Elves.

DARK ELVES! X1000

Or a sweet zombies multi-part plastic kit.

I'd also sponsor some all plastic single figures.

RiTides wrote:I really think they should have waited until their warcast issues were worked out... this would have tempted me!

Ditto.

Get all of your WarCast stuff out the door and I'd be tempted to kick in. Preorders for the Warriors of Apoc took 4 months to arrive, and that's on stuff already sculpted. How long is it going to take to sculpt and fill orders for 4 dwarf boxes (Warriors, Thunder Warriors, Iron Guard and Doomcrushers) in addition to all the heros planned?

If I wanted to get the 100 model package I expect I'd have to wait at least a year to get the models. I'll wait for preorders.

I think all of these indiegogo/kickstarter campaigns will see a long delay between funding and models. It's part of the reason they're asking for money now. At least i like 90% of the AOW models -- I'm fine as long as I end up with an awesome looking dwarf army where 75% of the models have their arms at 90 degree angles

And hopefully, some of the money (just like the mantic one) will go towards tooling up to produce faster.

teddet wrote:I think all of these indiegogo/kickstarter campaigns will see a long delay between funding and models. It's part of the reason they're asking for money now.

Ehh it kinda depends. AoW has only artwork while say Zombiecide and Sedition Wars actually have their models up (and zombicide is gearing up for a late summer/early autumn release). So using the word "all" may be too broad.

Unless you specifically meant Wargaming Kickstarters/Indiegogos. Mantic games is a bit similar with really no new models up and about anytime soon it seems

kenshin620 wrote:

teddet wrote:I think all of these indiegogo/kickstarter campaigns will see a long delay between funding and models. It's part of the reason they're asking for money now.

Ehh it kinda depends. AoW has only artwork while say Zombiecide and Sedition Wars actually have their models up (and zombicide is gearing up for a late summer/early autumn release). So using the word "all" may be too broad.

Unless you specifically meant Wargaming Kickstarters/Indiegogos. Mantic games is a bit similar with really no new models up and about anytime soon it seems

...and as for wargaming campaigns there's the relics indiegogo campaign which will have most stuff shipping out in the foreseeable future, too (with lots of goodies! and only 14 ish hours to go! )
I think AoW is the odd man out here. the price isn't phenomenal (preorder prices will be similar) and there's nothing exclusive to IGG backers either. they'll probably make their 20K - barely - but nowhere near the 55K ish they hoped to collect.
I'd love to see them succeed (their models are awesome and relatively affordable) but I don't see the incentive. with mantic the long wait after parting with my money will at least get me free extra models.
they're very good in terms of their product, talents whatsoever, but the business side over at AoW? boy, they have a lot to learn. shame!

ThomasPolder wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:

teddet wrote:I think all of these indiegogo/kickstarter campaigns will see a long delay between funding and models. It's part of the reason they're asking for money now.

Ehh it kinda depends. AoW has only artwork while say Zombiecide and Sedition Wars actually have their models up (and zombicide is gearing up for a late summer/early autumn release). So using the word "all" may be too broad.

Unless you specifically meant Wargaming Kickstarters/Indiegogos. Mantic games is a bit similar with really no new models up and about anytime soon it seems

...and as for wargaming campaigns there's the relics indiegogo campaign which will have most stuff shipping out in the foreseeable future, too (with lots of goodies! and only 14 ish hours to go! )
I think AoW is the odd man out here. the price isn't phenomenal (preorder prices will be similar) and there's nothing exclusive to IGG backers either. they'll probably make their 20K - barely - but nowhere near the 55K ish they hoped to collect.
I'd love to see them succeed (their models are awesome and relatively affordable) but I don't see the incentive. with mantic the long wait after parting with my money will at least get me free extra models.
they're very good in terms of their product, talents whatsoever, but the business side over at AoW? boy, they have a lot to learn. shame!

I see what you guys are saying -- I wasn't thinking of Zombiecide and Sedition Wars (i view them more as "board games"). I will check out relics -- although my interest in Mantic and AOW is for WHFB models, so the further from that the models are, the less useful to me. .

As for price -- I think you're right that mantic is a better deal per model, but it's still sight unseen, and with less proven ability to sculpt models I like (just my opinion ). So I view both campaigns as equal -- one is sight unseen but models I'll almost certainly like. The other is a better deal per model, but models I could hate. So I've supported them both roughly equally.

I think the AoW drive could be doing a lot better if they tinkered with it a little.

Maybe make the higher up rewards a little nicer (since no one has claimed them yet) by say letting more people join in the tour packages so the cost per person is lower. And give a bit nicer discount on the goods once they get there. (I mean, pretty much everyone can get 20% off)

Better yet - make it so that after say $15,000 - everyone who has pledged more than $100 can add an existing AoW hero sculpt for $5-10 as an extra.

Trying to negotiate some better shipping costs might help too.

There's just not a lot making me want to chip in now as opposed to just ordering the stuff when it's released.

Love or hate mantic, they're usually extremely close to the concepts, so you could go by those.

//gah. That's two other campaigns ive advertised here. I'll stop now

After talking to Gaelion on his forum, I think this is going to fail. Worse, I think it deserves to fail.

I suggested he add a hero to the $190 level so that it would actually give you an army, and he said he can't/won't give any more discounts, that he thinks it is "not fair" to offer discounts on anything that has sold at full price before, and that he thinks offering discounts defeats the purpose of the fundraiser.

I suggested that he perform some damage control after Warcast was such an embarrassment for its first release. He said that they've hired another two full time staff and another casting machine just for Warcast, but he refused to come here and actually tell people that the problem was solved.

I also suggested he add a level where he swaps some Warcast releases for plastic, but that got no reply.

As much as I like AoW sculpts, past company performance and the fact that I really don't care much about dwarves means I'll be passing on this.

Pricing is an issue too.

$190 for 100 dwarfs from AoW is pretty much exactly the same as buying 2 GW Dwarf battalions (100 models + 2 cannons) for $200.

Plus, the $20k target is too high considering that it only costs them $2k to $5k to make a kit. I'd have set the goal at 10k to start, then at the 20k, 40k, and 60k marks, every $100+ backer gets a free metal dwarf hero from the existing range.

That's the kind of thing that might have made this work, but since they don't see it as fair to offer these kinds of incentives, then I'm not sure how this will pan out... I've never seen a successful kickstarter that didn't offer incentives for backers.

Having tracked down and read the post Alex is talking about - I'm a bit confused - I'd hardly run my own mini business so I guess Felix would know better than I.

But it seems like the main benefits from doing a kickstarter (or like) project are (even, if as he says you end up discounting the perks so much that you don't have much leftover to invest in the product you are kickstarting) mainly:

You get the money way in advance - Take the initial sum - get the first few Dwarf products out, which once released you can then sell normally and profit from to fund the later waves. (Some of which won't be out for months)

You gets loads of free press, and the chance to gain some new customers (who are attracted by the discounts/buzz).

He seemed to be banking on a lot of people snatching up the $4k and $5k tours.

I still think they will make the $20,000 though (he seems doubtful - which it would probably be better not for him to broadcast ). It's been inching up slowly and steadily the past few days at like $800 a day. And I still expect a later surge as the people who supported Mantic, et al get a chance to recover a bit financially.

I think a $5 or under "here take my money" pledge would be a good one too. Because even if I'm not tempted to sink a lot of money into the kickstarter perks, I wouldn't mind rounding off my paypal balance to the nearest 0 or 5 to help the cause a little.

scarletsquig wrote:Pricing is an issue too.

$190 for 100 dwarfs from AoW is pretty much exactly the same as buying 2 GW Dwarf battalions (100 models + 2 cannons) for $200.

Plus, the $20k target is too high considering that it only costs them $2k to $5k to make a kit. I'd have set the goal at 10k to start, then at the 20k, 40k, and 60k marks, every $100+ backer gets a free metal dwarf hero from the existing range.

That's the kind of thing that might have made this work, but since they don't see it as fair to offer these kinds of incentives, then I'm not sure how this will pan out... I've never seen a successful kickstarter that didn't offer incentives for backers.

Yet we don't see threads about the "evil AoW corporation and the prices" . I think that if the prices were a little lower and they had no problems with meeting orders the warriors of Apoc a lot more people would be putting in. That said has there been any news of just how many preorders and orders since have been taken and compared to % met along a timeline by AoW to see if it was simply because they were TOO popular?

Actually, the problem with Warcast is that they priced them too low, creating excessive demand.

I like the concept art for these dwarfs, but I'm not sure they'll fit in with current Dwarf army from Mantic - so I'll pass for the moment. Good luck to them anyway, as I have their plastic berserkers and think they are great.

Saxon wrote:Actually, the problem with Warcast is that they priced them too low, creating excessive demand.

I think it's more likely that the problem was that the demand was too front-loaded, not that there was too much. In hindsight, it may have been better to simply stop taking preorders any time the backlog was more than a month.

AlexHolker wrote:

Saxon wrote:Actually, the problem with Warcast is that they priced them too low, creating excessive demand.

I think it's more likely that the problem was that the demand was too front-loaded, not that there was too much. In hindsight, it may have been better to simply stop taking preorders any time the backlog was more than a month.

No, they cannot supply the goods at the current price - hence having to buy more machinery, therefore excessive demand. Economics isn't exactly rocket science - in hindsight they should have priced them higher!

Wasn't the original goal $50,000, or did I just imagine that?

At $20,000, I think they'll make it, and I'm glad because their dwarfs are beautiful!

I don't expect models of this caliber to cost less than GW. With companies like AoW and Raging Heroes, I'm actually willing to pay a hair MORE than GW prices in order to get fantastic quality figures from a smaller company.

The quality of their sculpts is WELL deserving of the price, imo. I just think they should've worked out their issues before doing this, but I still want them to succeed, and I think they will with the $20K goal.

Isnt Warcast pretty much resin anyways? 10 resin figures for $25 is on par with metals/resins or even cheaper in some cases

2 failcast models are more then $25,- and prices are still rising

RiTides wrote:Wasn't the original goal $50,000, or did I just imagine that?

No, I think it was always $20k.

RiTides wrote:The quality of their sculpts is WELL deserving of the price, imo.

Agreed. I think the sculpts are better than GW.

One problem I see with the concept art is all of the dwarves are standing at a right angle, very static. We don't know how the actual models are going to look; and if they look that static a lot of people are going to be disappointed. But AoW has a lot of experience and a good track record of making great, dynamic sculpts.

Plus, some people are trying to justify buying another fantasy army

biccat wrote:

Plus, some people are trying to justify buying another fantasy army

No doubt!

I love AoW's Dwarf sculpts to date, and would probably jump in and get a full Dwarf army IF they can somehow manage this launch a LOT better than their Chaos Warrior stuff.

But to date, that remains a big "IF".

RiTides wrote:Wasn't the original goal $50,000, or did I just imagine that?

It's both: the bare minimum goal is $20k, the "everything on our list goal is ~$57k.

Right now I would say it isn't looking good for them making it. I am surprised they have raised so little.

brettz123 wrote:Right now I would say it isn't looking good for them making it. I am surprised they have raised so little.

Ehh they still got a good chunk of a month left. I'm sure they'll make it. But still it isnt all that surprising imo that this seems quite....slow compared to others

Indiegogo is a tad lesser known compared to kickstarter (or from what I have seen anyways)
AoW is quite a smallish company, even compared to Mantic. Companies that primarily make single figures compared to army centric stuff usually are dime a dozen. Not saying AoW though isnt one of the best though.
There is a huge negative stigma with Warcast production, which may come off as AoW not knowing what they're doing
While they have great figures, it might not inspire many people to buy into a bunch of concept sketches with not real set deadlines in the near future

AoW has great sculpts.

There's no value for me to pledge money upfront for this not-KS as I'd be paying upfront for stuff that would take a year (or two, or three) to ship, and you don't even get anything special for pledging the higher amounts. McVey and Mantic are showing they really want/value our contributions.

With people still not having their Chaos Warriors that they paid for in Feb, I'll pass on this one. If the figures ever come out, and I still have any interest, I'll buy them from Maelstrom or Weyland.

kenshin620 wrote:

brettz123 wrote:Right now I would say it isn't looking good for them making it. I am surprised they have raised so little.

Ehh they still got a good chunk of a month left. I'm sure they'll make it. But still it isnt all that surprising imo that this seems quite....slow compared to others

Indiegogo is a tad lesser known compared to kickstarter (or from what I have seen anyways)
AoW is quite a smallish company, even compared to Mantic. Companies that primarily make single figures compared to army centric stuff usually are dime a dozen. Not saying AoW though isnt one of the best though.
There is a huge negative stigma with Warcast production, which may come off as AoW not knowing what they're doing
While they have great figures, it might not inspire many people to buy into a bunch of concept sketches with not real set deadlines in the near future

It might be worth mentioning that AoW have since invested in a 2nd warcast machine, a operater for the said machine and a fulltime moldmaker.
Also, those models marked as planned are already sculpted , though not yet released in order not to create more backlog on the WoC - the Woc simply had more sucses the AoW ever immagined

Anyway, only reason I have not yet pledged is I have yet to see how much I can afford

I just saw this and I love AOW minis more than Mantics....

orc master wrote:
It might be worth mentioning that AoW have since invested in a 2nd warcast machine, a operater for the said machine and a fulltime moldmaker.
Also, those models marked as planned are already sculpted , though not yet released in order not to create more backlog on the WoC - the Woc simply had more sucses the AoW ever immagined

No, those marked as "done" are already sculpted. Felix said the following about new greens

I am now in full Apoc season sculpting Apoc troops. The sculpting of dwarfs starts in July. The campaign will by then be over, so no greens will be shown during the campaign.

read the info on the indigo site again,

the ones marked as done are already for sale on his website and true retailers,

the ones planned are already sculpted, but not yet released,

and the ones with the Yeeeeah in front are the goals of the fundraiser that have been passed so far

Scottywan82 wrote:Or a sweet zombies multi-part plastic kit.

I'll take 8.

Seriously. I'd be all over a good multpart zombie kit.

kenshin620 wrote:

brettz123 wrote:Right now I would say it isn't looking good for them making it. I am surprised they have raised so little.

Ehh they still got a good chunk of a month left. I'm sure they'll make it. But still it isnt all that surprising imo that this seems quite....slow compared to others

Indiegogo is a tad lesser known compared to kickstarter (or from what I have seen anyways)
AoW is quite a smallish company, even compared to Mantic. Companies that primarily make single figures compared to army centric stuff usually are dime a dozen. Not saying AoW though isnt one of the best though.
There is a huge negative stigma with Warcast production, which may come off as AoW not knowing what they're doing
While they have great figures, it might not inspire many people to buy into a bunch of concept sketches with not real set deadlines in the near future

Looks like donors are slowing down on this. At the current rate he wont make it unless it picks up again sometime.

Does anyone have any ideas why this one isn't working out? Felix puts out some quality product so I would have thought he could raise 20k fairly easily. I haven't thought about it very much but I am wondering if not having any real new product yet has hurt the fund raising.

So let me get this straight. The company will take my money, now (or whenever the thing expires), charge full price for the "incentives" and then ship what I bought some year or so down the road?

This sounds less like a kickstart type campaign and more like a desperate pre-order scenario. You could just as well wait until they actually start producing the product and buy it sight-seen at that time.

I'm probably going to dump some money on Mantic because their 3/$25 deal on Ogres and Werewolves is too sweet to pass up. You see, that's how you encourage investors to throw money at you.

I am surprised at the choice of dwarves, they are far from a popular army.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:I am surprised at the choice of dwarves, they are far from a popular army.

Perhaps that is what this Indiegogo is for? To measure interest?

MeanGreenStompa wrote:I am surprised at the choice of dwarves, they are far from a popular army.

Felix loves Dwarves. And it's what he's best at sculpting too IMO.

I wish they would drop the price on some of the big tours. Nobody has opted for a single one. I'd drop the price by $500 and let 5 people go instead of 4. It might drum up some interest in them. Better yet drop them completely and put a "Get one of everything AOW produces in the next 5 years" for 5 grand or so. A drop on the "master sculpt" thing might make those sell too.

I'm surprised the "get your own hero" sculpted isn't more popular, given the quality AoW produces. But then the pricing on that is kinda messed up. It's $1500 and includes either of the following: 100 miniatures (perk value, $205) or 40 miniatures painted by AoW's in house painter, top quality level. (perk value... $1200!). Meaning you're paying either $1300 or 300 for the dwarf sculpt itself. For $300 I think a lot of people would jump to get their own Dwarf made!

MeanGreenStompa wrote:I am surprised at the choice of dwarves, they are far from a popular army.

Felix: "What would you like to see first in plastic?"
Forum: "Witch Elves."
Felix:"Dwarfs? Okay, done. And next?"
Forum: "Witch Elves."
Felix: "More Dwarfs? Okay. Anything else?"
Forum: "Witch Elves."
Felix: "Okay, started a indigogo fundraiser on a complete Dwarf army."
Raging Heroes: "We just made metal Witch Elves, most successful release we ever had."

Maybe Felix just doesn't plain like witch elves. I can see why that could very well be the case.

mattyrm wrote:I just saw this and I love AOW minis more than Mantics....

Same here, but given the recent track record on delivering for Felix and Co., I will be waiting until there's something in stock to ship.

And then, I will build a Dwarf army using his models!

I want him to get on with the chaos ranges... They will provide him with the financial success to go on and make less popular ranges... like dwarves...

Spoken like a true Ork/c - Dwarves rock!

Clearly Felix loves Dwarves, so...

But yes, sorting out the issues with the existing Chaos Warriors regiments and making more in that line will get him a LOT of money...

I would absolutely love to get in on his dwarfs, but can't justify it given the uncertainty of when they'd get produced / etc, based on the chaos models.

I really wish them success with them, though- the dwarves they have made are absolutely gorgeous!!!

I really want an all/mostly all AoW Dwarf army, but I don't think he's going to hit his target on this one.

Since he did NOT use the Indeigogo "Flexible Funding" option, that means is he doesn't he gets NO money at all.

I wonder what that means for his plans?

His dwarves are totally awesome, better than GWs, as I said I bought a box of beserkers and I love them, they are better sculpts than GWs.

But, there seems to be no incentive at all to bother buying them in this manner. Its no cheaper for starters, I got my Beserkers on ebay for £22 with free postage. If I buy into this, I pay instantly, get feth all product for 6 months, and then have to pay $105 for 50 guys?!

$105 comes to £68. Im confident I will get them cheaper, and I will get the models within a week of paying, so what possible incentive is there to back his funding drive?

Mantic and McVey have got the right idea. Lash me up with a couple of freebies, even small ones, and Ill be all over it.

Exactly!

OGRE, Zombicide and Sedition Wars are examples of crowd funding done 'right'.

This one... not so much.

Which is a shame, because as you noted, his sculpts are generally miles ahead of his competition - and I would have spent at least $190 on this one IF it was set up with better incentives, etc.

orc master wrote:read the info on the indigo site again,
the ones marked as done are already for sale on his website and true retailers,
the ones planned are already sculpted, but not yet released,
and the ones with the Yeeeeah in front are the goals of the fundraiser that have been passed so far

I understand, you're reading this from the main IGG page:

[PLANNED]: Miniatures in this category will be done. These are the miniatures we were already able to sculpt and produce before this campaign.

However, in the forums, people keep asking Felix to stop shooting himself in the foot with the (terrible? arrogant? you choose!) way he's managing the fundraising, and he keeps being stubbornly difficult. They have been asking for him to show the greens, to help increase support. In direct contradiction to the information you're referring to, which as you correctly state is posted on the IGG site - his reply:

Gaelion
Post subject: Re: Dwarf Army funding campaign!Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:22 pm
AoW Overseer

Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:22 am
Posts: 1423
Location: Barcelona, Spain
Sorry, I really can not offer anymore minis-related stuff.

Otherwise the campaign would not be profitable for us.

There are no greens, I am now sculpting Apoc regiments, not Dwarfs yet, it says that clearly on the campaign details. Anyway, if the already sculpted AoW dwarfs together with the concept art is not enough to tempt collectors to perk, then there is really nothing I can do about it!
_________________
Miniatures gamer, sculptor and collector

There are no greens, I am now sculpting Apoc regiments, not Dwarfs yet,

There are no greens

no greens

I still wonder about the fate of this entire project when he fails to reach his target funding level.

He gets zero dollars if he doesn't hit $20K...

Maybe he considers Witch Elves then

Alpharius wrote:I still wonder about the fate of this entire project when he fails to reach his target funding level.

He gets zero dollars if he doesn't hit $20K...

Well I'd rather see a project get redone almost completely to entice investments and excitement, rather than float on by with half the goal and possibly half the motivation/production

As much as I love Dwarves and their sculpts in particular you couldn't get me to put down money on this. It's a medium term risk with zero reward. Mantic and Sedition Wars are where my money will likely be going.

I actually registered on the AoW forums on the weekend and wrote up a post for Felix offering feedback, since he's an outstanding sculptor and I really would like to see him succeed. Since the AoW forum requires manual authorisation, and it's been three days (that's why the pledge amounts on Mantic and SW are out of date) with no sign of authorisation, (unless it got eaten by my spam filter and deleted?) I'm going to post it here instead. Of course, as Felix has said he doesn't read any other forums, it's mostly for our thoughts at this stage - and because I didn't want to waste the effort I put into the post. Maybe someone here with AoW access would like to repost it there?

Hi Felix,

Some feedback/opinions for you.
Firstly, I've been a fan of your work for many years now. My first AoW purchases were made back in 2007 when the only way to buy the figures were from the early verion of the webpage and the figures came in zip-lock bags - Dwarf Hero, Elf Hero, Goblin Hero (now renamed). Since then I've bought many more through retail channels.

The Indiegogo timing is poor/unfortunate. I only found out this one exists yesterday, and my budget for this period has already gone to Mantic and McVey. I'd also never heard of IGG before this. I have to say though, that this KS lacks the "extra value" that I would need to be willing to pay today for miniatures I will receive next year or even later. If I am paying for them to be made, KS-style, I do expect a lot more than at retail.

I don 't see a good idea offering more miniature based perks. We are offering the minis at a lower price than their price upon release or pre-order, so we are doing less benefit, thus we are losing money compared to simply selling them as a pre-order or release.

In many ways you are not.
You're selling them before they are even made or sculpted. People are investing in them before buying GW or KoW dwarfs which they might otherwise buy in the meantime. Anything sold now is extra profit. You're assuming that you will only ever sell X amount of figures. I counter that with additional value in the KS you will sell a large number of figures which you would otherwise have never sold. It's not a zero-sum game. I was not in the market looking for some space mutants and more space soldiers, but when I saw McVey's Sedition Wars offer, I was sold. Just as today I'm not looking for a bunch of Dwarves, but if the value was exceptional, I would be on board. It's not a zero-sum game.

Tours are neither here nor there for me - whichever company they are from. I live in Australia, after all. I don't care about Tours or tickets to Mantic's game day or Painting with Mike. I'll never be able to use them. There's no benefit to me as an investor, but my money is as good as anyone else's, though.

Jasko is completely wrong when he suggests that "this is still a fundraiser! The idea is basically to pay more than usually, otherwise AoW would not raise any money!" Be very careful when listening to your biggest fans/fanbois when they say things like this. They are the most vocal, and will agree with anything you say and (claim to) buy anything you produce, but they are far from the reality of the mass market. While I am a fan of your work, if I want to give to charity, there are many far better ways to spend my money then giving to a small business/miniature producer.

Seeing that people who pre-ordered in Feb still do not have their Warriors Regiments is also a huge red flag. That alone is enough to stop me from investing. You would have been much better off fulfilling all these orders with apologies and mea culpas before undertaking this fundraising.

If these campaigns are based on selling the product at a discount i frankly don't see the "real" success then.
You will have more or less the same profit as when releasing a product.

The "success" is large amounts of money up front. Pays for your tooling costs and such faster before needing to save from the normal profits. More turnover, more miniatures sold and out and about in people's armies and in Tournaments where they will be seen by more people who in turn become advocates for your product. Things like this when successful are not an attempt to sell more units at as close to RRP as you can get - they are an investment in your business, and one you should be willing to make much less profit on if you want success. Mantic is going to use the money to create models which they will sell for years to come. McVey is improving his boxed set. They make a smaller profit on a few hundred or a couple of thousand individuals but turn those funds into an advantage for thousands in the future.

KoW has almost $75k from under 500 pledges. Under 500 individual customers. McVey has $180k from 1300 individuals. Is every one a lost sale at retail? How many are on board (like me) simply because of the huge value being offered? Do miniature gamers buy more, more, more product over the years? They aren't losing a lot of sales long-term, but they are creating a great investment/injection of capital into their businesses which will retain it's value for years. Sure, Mantic will make less profit on their werewolves and ogres when looking at these 500 people, but hey! They will have the plastic molds of these models for every other customer going forward. It's an investment.

I do not post on other forums, because we have the AoW forums, facebook, twitter, email and phone number to contact us. If I was posting on other forums i would end up half the day posting here and there! But anyone who reaches us through the forum, email or phone will have immediate info.

Felix.
People are not going to chase you. People are busy and don't care enough. I created an account on your forum to post this message and found it needs to be manually added. If I didn't feel strongly I simply would not bother. Most people post on their "home" forums and don't feel a need to post on every manufacturer's home forums. Many on forums don't use facebook or twitter either. It would take you an investment of perhaps 2 hours to post the same message on a half-dozen of the main forums (Dakka, BOLS, etc) to explain the updates to your casting process. You are the businessman here. If your customers aren't worth that investment in time (and the "personal touch"- which people love.) then that's your decision.

I don't think anyone is asking that you become a forum regular, but personally-posted updates every so often at the same time as some of the FB/Tweets would simply be leveraging the medium that you use to sell your product (the internets) more effectively.

Unfortunately, to me the value offered is poor and the timeframe is dubious and not to be trusted when I look at the Warriors Regiments. I love your sculpts and will gladly continue to buy them when discounted at retail (as I buy all my models) but the extra value is simply not there to justify paying for products today which I will not receive for a year's time, so I am better off keeping my money and buying some of the product at retail in 1-2 years' time when it's available.

You have just over 75 contributors for just over $9k. You should look at these people not as "retail sales lost" but as investors in the future of your company. Reward people for contributing, and you'll have more contributors. Don't just look at the money that Mantic and McVey have - look at what they offer their contributors. That's why they have so many pledges.

You need to look at these things not as lost retail sales or a version of preorders, but as investments made in your business at a much more favourable rate than you would get from a bank loan. If you get your molds and tooling made while still making any profit, you've done better than a bank loan, which would require interest paid on the principal. That's clearly the attitide that Mantic have with their KS, and why they're very generous with their perks, and why they in turn have so many pledges..

The problem is that you're treating this like you're making retail transaction to customers, when it should be treated like you receiving an investment.

I understand that my post is very critical, but please view it as constructive critisism, as that is the intent with which I write it.

Very well said.

scipio.au wrote:I actually registered on the AoW forums on the weekend and wrote up a post for Felix offering feedback, since he's an outstanding sculptor and I really would like to see him succeed. Since the AoW forum requires manual authorisation, and it's been three days (that's why the pledge amounts on Mantic and SW are out of date) with no sign of authorisation, (unless it got eaten by my spam filter and deleted?) I'm going to post it here instead. Of course, as Felix has said he doesn't read any other forums, it's mostly for our thoughts at this stage - and because I didn't want to waste the effort I put into the post. Maybe someone here with AoW access would like to repost it there?

All very well said. It seems like there is a mix of arrogance as well as just not understanding what these group funding projects are about on his part that is really hard to understand. If people are going to give you there money for a year or more they expect something in return. Maybe next time he will actually use kickstarter instead of indiegogo. Just seems like it wasn't very well thought out.

So, is this the first bigger crowdfunding failure of the current crop? I wonder if we can see more in the near future, when more hopefuly miniatures makers join up in the cargo cult.

Agamemnon2 wrote:So, is this the first bigger crowdfunding failure of the current crop? I wonder if we can see more in the near future, when more hopefuly miniatures makers join up in the cargo cult.

I think a well thought out one with real tangible benefits (ie free stuff) will always do well as long as you have something to show ahead of time. In short I see this as failing because there is no product, just a promise of something way in the future, and you really aren't getting anything all that great for contributing. The thing is why not offer free miniatures when you are dealing with plastic sets? The tooling is the expensive part not the production. For instance why not just offer a free sprue here and there as a strectch goal? It is disappointing because Felix does a lot of good stuff.

kenshin620 wrote:Well I'd rather see a project get redone almost completely to entice investments and excitement, rather than float on by with half the goal and possibly half the motivation/production

I don't think there's any danger of that. Felix loves him some Dwarves.

I think Kroothawk sums up my personal feeling rather well (I'm a bit miffed about Felix playing coy for over a year about plastic Witch Elves... then going on to Chaos Warriors and Dwarves), but even if not for that, AoW's approach is a long way from the one that made Zombicide a success.

brettz123 wrote:I think a well thought out one with real tangible benefits (ie free stuff) will always do well as long as you have something to show ahead of time. In short I see this as failing because there is no product, just a promise of something way in the future, and you really aren't getting anything all that great for contributing. The thing is why not offer free miniatures when you are dealing with plastic sets? The tooling is the expensive part not the production. For instance why not just offer a free sprue here and there as a strectch goal? It is disappointing because Felix does a lot of good stuff.

This is a big reason why something like a plastic Witch Elves campaign (or at least adding a few Warcast -> plastic conversions to the Stretch Goals for his dwarf campaign) would be better. Plastic means that once you get over the initial bump you can just throw sprues at people until they donate more money, because sprues are cheap. Warcast is not good for a Kickstarter. It doesn't have the breathing room to throw in extras, in time or in money.

I know what I would do if I were Felix. I'd approach companies like wayland games/ maelstrom to 'buy' stock in advance at a slight discount. I imagine that would take them up to £20k fairly quickly.

Obviously they'd have to have strict terms etc.

AlexHolker wrote:

This is a big reason why something like a plastic Witch Elves campaign (or at least adding a few Warcast -> plastic conversions to the Stretch Goals for his dwarf campaign) would be better. Plastic means that once you get over the initial bump you can just throw sprues at people until they donate more money, because sprues are cheap. Warcast is not good for a Kickstarter. It doesn't have the breathing room to throw in extras, in time or in money.

There's not the room to throw in tons of freebies no, but there is some wiggle room to at least give a decent discount. OR he could do a "If we reach 25k everyone gets 10 free plastic slayers" since those are plastic, and already produced. I don't think all of Mantic's Ogres/Trolls/Werewolves etc are actual "plastic" either, but the resin stuff they often call plastic. But they're cheap enough still to throw in a free single or free unit after pledging so much cash.

There's a lot of things that could be done to turn things around, just no willingness to do any of them. As it is today marks the half-way point timewise (or maybe a little over it - I can't recall if it started at 30/31 days) and they're at a little under halfway to the bare minimum of 20k. I hope Felix has a contingency plan where he/the company can contribute any remaining few thousand they might fall short of at the last minute. (He can swoop in a pledge for the $5k tour himself for instance) so that they hit 20k and get to keep the money they did raise.

Meanwhile Mantic is creeping up on $85k, and Mcvey is sleeping on a pile of money. (All three started on the same weekend).

Grimstonefire wrote:I know what I would do if I were Felix. I'd approach companies like wayland games/ maelstrom to 'buy' stock in advance at a slight discount. I imagine that would take them up to £20k fairly quickly.

Obviously they'd have to have strict terms etc.

I think the problem with this idea is that most companies will be unlikely to buy into an item that doesn't exist, will not exist for a long time (something like a year or more), and the company they are buying from already has a reputation for not getting things done on time. These are all serious obstacles to overcome.

Schmapdi wrote:
There's not the room to throw in tons of freebies no, but there is some wiggle room to at least give a decent discount. OR he could do a "If we reach 25k everyone gets 10 free plastic slayers" since those are plastic, and already produced. I don't think all of Mantic's Ogres/Trolls/Werewolves etc are actual "plastic" either, but the resin stuff they often call plastic. But they're cheap enough still to throw in a free single or free unit after pledging so much cash.

There's a lot of things that could be done to turn things around, just no willingness to do any of them.

That's a huge problem with it - every time someone suggests throwing in some sweeteners - like those plastic dwarves, Felix turns around and talks about "profit". He also has a snide remark in there that was obviously made towards Mantic, which wasn't exactly a huge show of class...

Grimstonefire wrote:I know what I would do if I were Felix. I'd approach companies like wayland games/ maelstrom to 'buy' stock in advance at a slight discount. I imagine that would take them up to £20k fairly quickly.

Obviously they'd have to have strict terms etc.

Problem is AoW has already shown difficulty in meeting demand. Large online stores and distributors would not want risk money on a product that might not show up when scheduled. And who knows, with the failure to meet schedule for the Apoc warriors, they might have already been burned.

I have not ready the AoW Forum thread, but through scipio.au, it sounds like Felix believes the product will sell itself. There has been no new information or revelations since the indiegogo has launched. After the initial burst of publicity, they have done nothing to help maintain or build excitement. It's obvious from this tread, people are gunshy. They saw the complaints about late warrior boxes and poor communication and have doubts in AoW's ability to deliver in a timely manner.

Halfway there with 12 days to go.

This one might come right down to the wire!

Alpharius wrote:Halfway there with 12 days to go.

This one might come right down to the wire!

I doubt it considering the funding seems to have dried up. He is getting only a few hundred dollars a day on a good day at this point.

Yeah - it seems to be losing steam unfortunately. We're several days past the half-way point now, and we're just barely over the halfway mark money-wise.

If it were closer there might have been an uptick in the last few days to make sure it succeeded. But at this pace it doesn't look like it will be even that close.

Though I guess anything could happen, like someone shelling out for one of the $4k or $5k tours.

*fingers crossed*

Yeah they only got $1000 in last three days. Maybe someone will pony up for one of the big one though and get this over the top.

They've just updated the perks they're offering. Removing some of the larger one's and adding in some options to enter a prize draw:

$20
AoW Mega-subscription!

You get to participate in this prize draw, where the winner will get for free (shipping included) one of each future AoW product!


$30
AoW Hero green prize draw

You get to participate in this prize draw, where the winner will get the AoW hero green stuff sculpt he choses!

$30
AoW Hero green prize draw

You get to participate in this prize draw, where the winner will get the AoW hero green stuff sculpt he choses!

Just to clarify on this one: if you win, you have to choose an AoW Hero that actually exists - it's not, as I assumed at first glance, the opportunity to have Felix & Co sculpt a Hero of your choice.

You just don't start to save a thing until you spend $190 and that's not even buy 4 get 1 free (20 man regiments). With everything else out there this just isn't worth the investment. And that is from a diehard dwarfer. I'll check it out though when they actually produce them.

Hulksmash wrote:You just don't start to save a thing until you spend $190 and that's not even buy 4 get 1 free (20 man regiments). With everything else out there this just isn't worth the investment. And that is from a diehard dwarfer. I'll check it out though when they actually produce them.

Yeah :-/. I still hope it succeeds, though!

Well, it's a start. I wish they had done it a week ago, but it's something that shows they care.

I'm not sure I see a lot of demand for the new perks either. Though I'm not the sort to buy artwork.

The mega-subscription prize raffle is a good idea I think. But $20 for a chance to enter is kinda crazy. $5 - and I think a ton of people would have entered.

The green raffle is interesting too - but again for $30 I would expect it to be "You get to choose an existing (man-sized) AoW champion, in addition you get entered into a raffle - the winner get's the green sculpt for their chosen champion."

Oddly - for $500 - the "Get your own Dwarf sculpted" is a steal now! I expect these will go fast. You get your own custom Dwarf, and 100 dwarves of your choosing. That means you're only really paying $300 for the sculpt.

I think they need to add more of the $200 painted Dwarf hero - it's selling decently at least.

And it's nice to see the lone tour so cheap, that could be a fun, affordable long weekend for some gaming buddies (who live in Europe).

It'll be fun to see if this picks up the pace funds-wise or not. At the very least they can get a good idea of what works/what doesn't and come back with a more moderate kickstarter next time.

Schmapdi wrote:Oddly - for $500 - the "Get your own Dwarf sculpted" is a steal now! I expect these will go fast. You get your own custom Dwarf, and 100 dwarves of your choosing. That means you're only really paying $300 for the sculpt.

Wow, that actually is quite good. If it was phrased like that (i.e. $300 to have a dwarf sculpted of your choosing) I bet it'd be already gone. Or if it'd been added earlier.

So, yeah... that's pretty sweet!

Now if they'd only make the lower pledge levels better deals, too.

Schmapdi wrote:

The mega-subscription prize raffle is a good idea I think. But $20 for a chance to enter is kinda crazy. $5 - and I think a ton of people would have entered.

Sorry to quote myself - but Holy Crap - they just lowered the entry on the mega-raffle to $5. I'd be a hypocrite not to enter it now... so off I go to claim the first one!

Whoa- that's sweet of them. I am sure I will end up doing at least that by the end.

Nice that they finally listened, at least a bit!

It's definitely wise to wait - apparently Infamy discovered that raffles are not allowed as rewards on Indiegogo.

Been checking out new concept sketches by none other than Wayne England this morning, they are looking amazing!

They've just posted on Facebook that they've been asked by Indiegogo to remove the raffle perks.

I just received a note from Indiegogo asking me to remove the raffles! :( It is against their policies.
Sorry for the inconvenience!

Once the campaign ends (if reaching the goal) we will give the prize one of to those who had already entered the prize draw contribution. there were very few, so chances to win are pretty high!

Darn, should've snuck in there when there was a chance, then

I wouldn't support these guys in anything else they do I never received my apoc warriors from them sent emails asking why no response. Not trust worthy.

I'm assuming you got a refund, right?

You can check when your order is scheduled to ship on this page:

http://www.avatars-of-war.com/eng/web/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=107&Itemid=143#X

Their comms seems to be sub-par for the apoc warriors, to put it mildly. I think they should be throwing extras in with everyone's late orders as an apology, but that doesn't fit Felix' mentality for his range. I'll only ever buy their figures from retailers based on others' experiences with this debacle.

Wow, I clicked that link and selected June 1st just to see shipping time. I was pretty surprised it would take over a month to ship it--but was even more surprised that it said it had 1756 boxes waiting before me to ship. If that is accurate, that means they have $83,216 dollars worth of stock they need to cast up and ship to people still. Yikes.

Maybe that's why Felix doesn't see the point in giving extra value to the Kickstarter campaign? He's already had $100k of people's money for close to 6 months before shipping most of them any stuff.

A few days ago i was planning to put in a pity pledge of $95 despite having no interest in dwarfs, simply because i wanted AoW indiegogo to succeed. But after seeing Felix fail to understand why other projects are currently flourishing while his is struggling has made me change my mind about supporting them.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Wow, I clicked that link and selected June 1st just to see shipping time. I was pretty surprised it would take over a month to ship it--but was even more surprised that it said it had 1756 boxes waiting before me to ship. If that is accurate, that means they have $83,216 dollars worth of stock they need to cast up and ship to people still. Yikes.

I'm assuming their shipping calculator is out of date, every order beyond march 19th is set to be shipped on July 6th... My order is to be posted on the 18th of June according to the calculator (i placed it February 24th.), but im really starting to think it won't even ready by then.

I guess we'll see what happens on Monday.

I was half-tempted to pledge $25 or $45, but.. between Sedition Wars, Mantic, the Maelstrom sale that ends tomorrow (with things actually in stock and able to ship!) and other bills, I've decided against it. If the dwarfs get made, I'll buy some of them for less from Maelstrom than Felix is asking in the IGG. Plus I want to pick up the D&D Ravenloft boardgame and it's 2 sequels in the near future, some more Forgeworld stuff, a plastic Daemons army, a bunch of Puppetswar resin parts, Stormraven extension kits from Chapterhouse, a bunch of Warlord Games WW2 stuff that will go into multiple games.. see, this is all stuff available right now that I want to buy from within this hobby. (not counting other hobbies I have). This is why the more-expensive-than-discounted-retail strategy of Felix is failing.

edit - I should edit that slightly and post it on the AoW forum, but I fear it'll just fall on deaf ears.

AlexHeap wrote:They've just posted on Facebook that they've been asked by Indiegogo to remove the raffle perks.

I just received a note from Indiegogo asking me to remove the raffles! :( It is against their policies.
Sorry for the inconvenience!

Once the campaign ends (if reaching the goal) we will give the prize one of to those who had already entered the prize draw contribution. there were very few, so chances to win are pretty high!

As one of the 11 entries in the raffle - I'm both saddened and really excited!

Sad because I bet that actually would have raised them a fair bit of cash (it picked up 11 entries in a relatively short amount of time) and also because I'll feel rather guilty if I win. I mean $55 raised and they're still going to give away one of everything they produce, forever! I honestly wouldn't fault them for just issuing refunds there.

Excited because it's much more fun playing the lotto when you know you have a 9% chance to win. (I'm envious of the people who bought two entries!)

I guess the one guy who contributed for the green prize draw just gets to choose his green!

They might be saved if they don't make their $20k mark. If they don't make it, they won't get anything apparently, so it might save them in that regard.

But in that case, this whole army funding campaign will have been a waste of time.

I love their stuff, but people not getting their miniatures which have been on order since the start of the year is pretty bad.

I don't think AoW has a serious business model in place. Beautiful sculpts, yes, but no sign of honest interest in becoming anything more of a hobby caster putting his wares in a flea market. If current product order isn't being fulfilled, expecting people to hand over money for new product seems niave on their part.

Which is exactly why I'll continue to buy his product from places like Maelstrom (when Maelstrom list it as "in stock").and never direct.

scipio.au wrote:Which is exactly why I'll continue to buy his product from places like Maelstrom (when Maelstrom list it as "in stock").and never direct.

Which is another problem though currently as War Cast so far is "Direct Only"

It just means I don't/can't buy the Warcast stuff, but yeah...

One week and $5K to go - I hope he makes it!

I hope he fulfills his obligations.

Breotan wrote:I hope he fulfills his obligations.

Could someone expand on this? I'm on the fence with backing this, and I keep reading "bad stuff," that would potentially prevent me from doing so, but it's a bit unclear what the problem "fulfilling obligations" has been, and in what context.

Anything?

If you read the entire thread it has been clearly stated multiple times that he has had trouble getting pre-orders on his plastic chaos warriors to people. People pre-ordered these months ago and are still waiting for their items to arrive. Some people find it unseemly that he hasn't met all his previous obligations and is asking for money for future products.

cincydooley wrote:

Breotan wrote:I hope he fulfills his obligations.

Could someone expand on this? I'm on the fence with backing this, and I keep reading "bad stuff," that would potentially prevent me from doing so, but it's a bit unclear what the problem "fulfilling obligations" has been, and in what context.

Anything?

A few months ago AoW created their War Cast Warriors of Apocalypse



Obviously these guys generated tons of hype since these were not warriors of chaos with ALL the options and way better posed. However this huge demand push completely overwhelmed AoW and even though these guys are fully comlete, the production is bottlenecked and people who pre ordered these are literally waiting months to get them

He's basically still way out on orders for his other products and now AOW is talking about sculting and producing another entire line of models when he hasn't managed to keep up with the first batch. I've heard of people that placed orders 6 months ago that have not yet received their product.

Yes, I read the entire thread. People stating, "I haven't got my minis yet," doesn't really tell you that much. I was more curious as to why. And could have done without the condescending commentary.

So it is, presumably, a production issue, in that AoW are doing small batch casts, etc. Has there been any elaboration on that? I mean, we've seen how backed up a much larger company can get (PP) in terms of getting product to market.

People also seem to be turned off by the sculptor in general due to his attitude. Which is unfortunate, because their sculpts are wonderful.

The sculptor/owner isn't very open about his business from what I've seen so I don't know personally if there has been any explanation outside of telling people he's behind. And I agree that his sculpts are amazing so it makes the issues with the business doubly sad.

And if you consider what either myself or kenshin said condescending then you probably need thicker skin. Going back and reading our replies I don't see anything that could be construed that way even over the toneless internet....

Hulksmash wrote:The sculptor/owner isn't very open about his business from what I've seen so I don't know personally if there has been any explanation outside of telling people he's behind. And I agree that his sculpts are amazing so it makes the issues with the business doubly sad.

And if you consider what either myself or kenshin said condescending then you probably need thicker skin. Going back and reading our replies I don't see anything that could be construed that way even over the toneless internet....

Naw, didn't mean you two, actually. The brettz dude that referred sarcastically to me "reading the entire thread." No worries on your part. I should have been more clear.

I'm so on the edge for this project because the plastic Berzerkers I have are some of my favorite plastics, period. They're so staggeringly good.

Well thats the big thing that disturbs me, AoW is good, I mean REALLY good! They have shown to have some of the best stuff out there, especially their plastics. I'm just worried that because of how things are right now, too much distrust and mistakes would snowball and put a permanent stain on AoW.

It must be the production method coupled with huge demand that's causing it. I got my Berserkers in good time, and they are indeed lovely.

Nice! Shows what a few good-value perks can do

Felix is a brilliant sculptor.

The situation is that he views the Kickstarter as a form of pre-order to get profit from rather than an investment.

This means that there is little "additional value" as found in other Kickstarters, as the costs are comparable to buying the figures from retail when they are in stock.

They also still have not managed to ship product that people ordered in Jan-Feb, and so it seems quite ..unseemly that he's decided to start a fundraiser without having completed fulfilling his existing obligations. Communication regarding the Apoc warriors and the delays to his customers that have paid has also been poor.

I'd personally love to throw a pile of money his way, but frankly I don't trust them enough to pre-pay for a bunch of figures 6 months or a year in advance. I'll just buy them (for the same or less) once they hit retail. - like I do with his range anyway.

Well, he clearly learned that better perks = more pledges, since those 3 $500 "sculpt your own hero" (which also included a lot of dwarfs, so was more like $300 for the sculpt) went really quick.

But agreed about not wanting to order direct from them until they improve on delivering...

One reward I'm surprised he didn't do was a painted dwarf regiment. Unit of 20 guys painted to top quality for say $1-2000. Believe people would have jumped at that. Know Zombiecide had it where the main painter for CMoN would paint your figs in the game for $3000. They all sold out. Five of those would close that final gap.

They're very close to 20k now. I think they'll get there.

This is quite a strange tactic for a crowdsourcing project. Eschew the idea of added value for the customer and don't use the market leader in the field (Kickstarter). Does he overwhelmingly sell direct to the customer instead of through retail channels? I can't see how offering more minis would cut so severely into his profits as to make the option this unlikely... considering he takes 50% off the price to get his products into the retail pipeline. Part of the reason companies offer these deals is because they're selling direct to consumers and can afford to offer more with the two normal middlemen (distributor, store) cut out.

silent25 wrote:One reward I'm surprised he didn't do was a painted dwarf regiment. Unit of 20 guys painted to top quality for say $1-2000. Believe people would have jumped at that. Know Zombiecide had it where the main painter for CMoN would paint your figs in the game for $3000. They all sold out. Five of those would close that final gap.

There was one - it was 40 painted dwarves for $600, IIRC.

They didn't sell a one in the first two weeks or so, they dropped it when they shuffled the rewards around a bit.

warboss wrote:This is quite a strange tactic for a crowdsourcing project. Eschew the idea of added value for the customer and don't use the market leader in the field (Kickstarter). Does he overwhelmingly sell direct to the customer instead of through retail channels? I can't see how offering more minis would cut so severely into his profits as to make the option this unlikely... considering he takes 50% off the price to get his products into the retail pipeline. Part of the reason companies offer these deals is because they're selling direct to consumers and can afford to offer more with the two normal middlemen (distributor, store) cut out.

While I won't defend most the decision, going with Indiegogo wasn't necessarily a bad idea. As I understand Kickstarter has issues with accepting and processing payment to and from some European companies. Rest I agree, Felix could have sold the product for far less and generated far more excitement. Mantic is essentially offering their product at cost to get the capital to pursue further ventures. Yes Mantic is not making much up front, but they will have a large number of figures funded and produced. Once the crowdsourcing is over they sell all those figs for normal and make the profit. Plus they have all the people who committed to the crowdsource now playing and pushing their game for further sales.


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scipio.au wrote:They're very close to 20k now. I think they'll get there.

I don't think so. They would need another 20 - 30 people to go with the $190 option. I don't see anyone going with the $1000 option and there are no other options above $190 left.

At this point, Felix might be considering putting in the last 2k or so himself to secure the rest of the funding. Then again, maybe not given some of his decisions...

I honestly can't understand why Felix didn't offer an Indiegogo exclusive Dwarf character to higher pledges, or maybe even a warcast champion upgrade sprue similar to what they included in the Warriors of Apoc pre-orders. Something to give people an actual incentive to purchase them now instead of just waiting 8 months until they're released.

It makes me kinda sad too look at all the miniatures in the higher stretch goals that may potentially never be created (The multi-part female dwarfs for example.) simply because of how poorly this campaign has been run so far.

cincydooley wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:The sculptor/owner isn't very open about his business from what I've seen so I don't know personally if there has been any explanation outside of telling people he's behind. And I agree that his sculpts are amazing so it makes the issues with the business doubly sad.

And if you consider what either myself or kenshin said condescending then you probably need thicker skin. Going back and reading our replies I don't see anything that could be construed that way even over the toneless internet....

Naw, didn't mean you two, actually. The brettz dude that referred sarcastically to me "reading the entire thread." No worries on your part. I should have been more clear.

I'm so on the edge for this project because the plastic Berzerkers I have are some of my favorite plastics, period. They're so staggeringly good.

Actually it wasn't meant to be sarcastic just a heads up that it had been discussed already thats all. But you are correct that I should not have phrased it that way because it was rude so I apologize.


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warboss wrote:This is quite a strange tactic for a crowdsourcing project. Eschew the idea of added value for the customer and don't use the market leader in the field (Kickstarter). Does he overwhelmingly sell direct to the customer instead of through retail channels? I can't see how offering more minis would cut so severely into his profits as to make the option this unlikely... considering he takes 50% off the price to get his products into the retail pipeline. Part of the reason companies offer these deals is because they're selling direct to consumers and can afford to offer more with the two normal middlemen (distributor, store) cut out.

My understanding is that Kickstarter is only for US companies which is why Zombiecide and Sedition Wars are actually dont through Cool Mini or not.


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scipio.au wrote:At this point, Felix might be considering putting in the last 2k or so himself to secure the rest of the funding. Then again, maybe not given some of his decisions...

It looks like it is picking up so my guess would be that during the next 6 days he will get there.

I hope so, as I want to buy lots of Dwarves from Felix.

When, you know, they are finish and listed as 'in stock', of course!

brettz123 wrote:My understanding is that Kickstarter is only for US companies...

...like, mantic?

no, you need a US based bank account. that's about it. getting an amazon payments account is not *that* hard for non US companies, it just takes a little effort and organization.
...which given the highly ineffective way he handles every aspect of business besides the sculpting itself, makes it hardly surprising he picked IGG.

ThomasPolder wrote:

brettz123 wrote:My understanding is that Kickstarter is only for US companies...

...like, mantic?

no, you need a US based bank account. that's about it. getting an amazon payments account is not *that* hard for non US companies, it just takes a little effort and organization.
...which given the highly ineffective way he handles every aspect of business besides the sculpting itself, makes it hardly surprising he picked IGG.

Interesting that makes sense. Still makes it a little hard for European based companies though. Seems like it would be a good idea for kicksarter to branch out a little bit.

Alpharius wrote:I hope so, as I want to buy lots of Dwarves from Felix.
When, you know, they are finish and listed as 'in stock', of course!

I keep on waiting for Witch Elves ... at least until GW finally makes them end of next year.

Kroot, we got it, you wanted witch elves, they didn't come through with them

This is all about DWARF awesomeness, though... and since it's a passion of the sculptor, much more likely to be made!

RiTides wrote:Kroot, we got it, you wanted witch elves, they didn't come through with them

This is all about DWARF awesomeness, though... and since it's a passion of the sculptor, much more likely to be made!

I think though, that helps explain a problem of this, I was going to say Kickstarter, but IGG I 'spose; he's passionate about Dwarves... but there doesn't seem to be a desire for them. Now, perhaps there really is an untapped market for dwarves out there, but rigidity on the part of the producer is a definite negative.

I read the thread Scipio posted in, and, wow, the difference between the attitude McVey and the Mantic people have and Felix is night and day. It seems almost like he's antagonistic towards the whole endeavor, it really does not give one a good feeling about investing (and it really is an investment, not a pre-order).

More then anything though, the whole interaction shows that Felix simply does not understand what these crowd sourcing instruments should be used for. His gripes about how he can't squeeze a profit from it are just mind boggling. McVey's Sedition Wars effort is, to my mind, the best Kickstarter I have seen for a very simple reason: it was set up in such a way that once they reached funding, they had a guarantee that they would have the tooling to produce the minis at a cheap enough to really give a good deal to the backers.

That's the key, I think: the initial goal is something, like tooling the injection molds for plastics, that really make it an investment. Felix isn't doing that. He's really just trying to do really, really speculative pre-orders.

Given the stories of back-orders mounted up, I would have very serious doubts about this plan. He's not revolutionizing his business (as McVey is, moving from resins and limited sculpts to mass production), he's just doing the same thing he is already doing... but he's doing it badly already.

Buzzsaw wrote:I think though, that helps explain a problem of this, I was going to say Kickstarter, but IGG I 'spose; he's passionate about Dwarves... but there doesn't seem to be a desire for them. Now, perhaps there really is an untapped market for dwarves out there, but rigidity on the part of the producer is a definite negative.

I think there's a huge market for his dwarfs, especially when their new army book hits (later this year, or early next?).

I think the so-so performance of this fundraiser has been almost exclusively due to the fact that the perks create very little incentive to get in on it. If there were better, I may have gotten in myself. And when he put in better perks, the contributions jumped up... but he doesn't have any good value and low cost perks.

As it is, I will gladly order his fantastic sculpts in the future, if I so choose- but through a store or distributor rather than direct.

RiTides wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:I think though, that helps explain a problem of this, I was going to say Kickstarter, but IGG I 'spose; he's passionate about Dwarves... but there doesn't seem to be a desire for them. Now, perhaps there really is an untapped market for dwarves out there, but rigidity on the part of the producer is a definite negative.

I think there's a huge market for his dwarfs, especially when their new army book hits (later this year, or early next?).

I think the so-so performance of this fundraiser has been almost exclusively due to the fact that the perks create very little incentive to get in on it. If there were better, I may have gotten in myself. And when he put in better perks, the contributions jumped up... but he doesn't have any good value and low cost perks.

As it is, I will gladly order his fantastic sculpts in the future, if I so choose- but through a store or distributor rather than direct.

That + his delivery issues to date on other 'pre-order' type items + his 'odd' attitude towards constructive criticism = lackluster performance.

But really it all comes down to the bad perks!

Felix has just added a new perk:

$15
Ltd.Ed. Army Standard Bearer

A limited edition miniature of a Dwarf Army standard bearer. Only available through this campaign!

Looks like he's starting to listen to some of the suggestions people have sent in.

bam there is a perk I can get.

No need for a whole army right now nor the money, but for a 15 dollar high quality sculpt, worth it.

Finally can back this one.

Yes - I think once the word gets around this perk will be a hit. It's a shame it wasn't added until the campaign was 85% over though - they might have made another stretch goal or two :/

But I think this is definitely "insurance" that the campaign tops the 20k mark. I'm holding out hope for $23k for the bear warriors too.

There we go. Doesn't appear to be any extra costs for shipping,. either. I'll get that one and hope he actually sends it out before 2013.

Well they've just passed the $20,000 they needed with 4 days left so it looks like they might even reach some of the stretch goals. That limited edition mini really did the job.

AlexHeap wrote:Well they've just passed the $20,000 they needed with 4 days left so it looks like they might even reach some of the stretch goals. That limited edition mini really did the job.

Shocking, right?

Hopefully Felix and Co. take this to heart next time, along with all of the advice they got stressing the importance of good perks/stretch goals/etc.

AlexHeap wrote:Well they've just passed the $20,000 they needed with 4 days left so it looks like they might even reach some of the stretch goals. That limited edition mini really did the job.

Excellent news. These will be some awesome miniatures. Glad they are getting done.

Awesome that it met the goal! Agree about hoping it reaches $23K (only $3K more!) for bear riders as I'd like to see an alternative to scibor's.

Edit: Wow, the standard bearer perk includes worldwide shipping for free. Looks like more of a "thank you" perk than anything that will make him any money. Definitely a nice gesture on his part.

The dwarf calvary (dwarves on bears) is actually 38k so it's gonna be a no go. The 23k one is for dwarves in bear disguises.

scipio.au wrote:There we go. Doesn't appear to be any extra costs for shipping,. either. I'll get that one and hope he actually sends it out before 2013.

I don't know if that is an oversight or not. Hope it doesn't break them.

I'm surprised they made it. Do you know if Felix threw in the couple thousand he was mentioning scipio.au? The standard bearer only looks to have netted $7 - 800. Still good luck to those that committed. I hope AoW turns these around as fast as they claimed they will.

Are backers limited in what regiment options they can choose, or are all of the listed complete stretch goals available?

So far im tempted to go in on the $45 deal just to get the Treasure hunters and possibly the bear warriors, plus an extra $15 for the standard bearer.

Concerning the Warriors of Apoc, has anyone who already received their order get an e-mail notifying them that they were being posted? im starting to wonder if i should send them a message asking about the current status of my order

RiTides wrote:Awesome that it met the goal! Agree about hoping it reaches $23K (only $3K more!) for bear riders as I'd like to see an alternative to scibor's.

Edit: Wow, the standard bearer perk includes worldwide shipping for free. Looks like more of a "thank you" perk than anything that will make him any money. Definitely a nice gesture on his part.

Depending on how cynical you are, it's either a "thank you" or a "how can we get this 18k over the line to 20k so I don't get nothing?"


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silent25 wrote:

scipio.au wrote:There we go. Doesn't appear to be any extra costs for shipping,. either. I'll get that one and hope he actually sends it out before 2013.

I don't know if that is an oversight or not. Hope it doesn't break them.
I'm surprised they made it. Do you know if Felix threw in the couple thousand he was mentioning scipio.au? The standard bearer only looks to have netted $7 - 800. Still good luck to those that committed. I hope AoW turns these around as fast as they claimed they will.

No idea - also the thing about Felix throwing in a couple of thousand was my own speculation on a way for them avoid not getting anything - as it's not a flexible funding model he chose to use.
It certainly won't "break" them. Worst case would be that he makes no profit on it at all. Remembering that he's not the retailer, or the wholesaler, but the producer. AoW figures retail for less than $15 through normal channels, I'd say that they would be making some amount on each figure after postage costs etc - I doubt it will come in a blister - his figures originally came in little zip-lock bags - which would further decrease the per unit costs.

scipio.au wrote:

RiTides wrote:Awesome that it met the goal! Agree about hoping it reaches $23K (only $3K more!) for bear riders as I'd like to see an alternative to scibor's.

Edit: Wow, the standard bearer perk includes worldwide shipping for free. Looks like more of a "thank you" perk than anything that will make him any money. Definitely a nice gesture on his part.

Depending on how cynical you are, it's either a "thank you" or a "how can we get this 18k over the line to 20k so I don't get nothing?"

Luckily, I'm not that cynical

95% to the bear warriors - so I think that's probably a lock by now. If we're lucky we might hit the Dwarf King on bear kit too.

It'd be nice if he were supported by Bear Cavarly, but I don't think that's too realistic. IIRC though Felix said something to the effect that he'd make all the units eventually, whether the kickstarter made any money or not. It would just take them a lot longer to all come out.

I went in for a standard bearer. I'll probably go in again for a second one in a couple of days as a gift for my wife to paint.

It's a small enough investment that if it's really slow coming it won't annoy me too much.

They're over $24,000 now so that's the first stretch goal passed. It's definitely picked up these last few days and there are still 2 more to go.

Can you imagine where this might have really ended up if Felix would have listened to reason from the start?

The AoW sculpts are great, and he's certainly got a lot of fans, me included!

Oh well...

Next time though, right?

Alpharius wrote:Can you imagine where this might have really ended up if Felix would have listened to reason from the start?

Yeah, and it's not dwarfs

The dwarfs are very popular, and will only be moreso when their new book hits (in a year or so? That will probably be when all these sculpts are done, anyway ).

Awesome that he's at $24K! Even more awesome that the new FLGS carries AoW so hopefully they'll get some of the new units when he releases them.

Let's go bear-mounted character! As I can't imagine he'll be able to resist making a unit once he's made one

Alpharius wrote:Can you imagine where this might have really ended up if Felix would have listened to reason from the start?

The AoW sculpts are great, and he's certainly got a lot of fans, me included!

Oh well...

Next time though, right?

I suspect it would end up somewhere between what they currently have and the order of magnitude better the Mantic Kickstarter has. I like the AoW sculpts better but there is more variety as well as better deals on the Mantic page.

I agree! Their sculpts are amazing... and even though the original plan wasn't very sound, it's nice to see them getting rewarded for making some good choices at the end here. If it results in more models getting made, I think that should make us all happy whether they're for a faction we play, or not (and I include Mantic in this).

warboss wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Can you imagine where this might have really ended up if Felix would have listened to reason from the start?

The AoW sculpts are great, and he's certainly got a lot of fans, me included!

Oh well...

Next time though, right?

I suspect it would end up somewhere between what they currently have and the order of magnitude better the Mantic Kickstarter has. I like the AoW sculpts better but there is more variety as well as better deals on the Mantic page.

I'd take better models over a better deal any day. I couldn't pull the trigger on Mantic because I simply don't like any of the models they have for KoW right now save the vampire counts ones, and I have no interest playing that army. Im excited to see how some of the new units look (werewolves, ogres) but I'm not holding my breath just yet.

Still trying to determine if I want to pledge for the AoW one. Treasure hunters and bear warriors certainly have piqued my interest!

That's right where I'm at, cincydooley! Hoping this gets a last 2 day surge, but it'd help if he'd add in some additional higher level pledges to give it that chance. If nothing else, I'll be thrilled if it hits the mounted lord on bear, because then we'll get to see what he has in mind for bears. I like Scribor's, but they're a little too soft looking for my tastes.

Over $28,000 now so both of these are in:

[$26.250] Dwarf King mounted on Great war bear kit – WarCast miniature
[$27.500] Dwarf Bear Lord – Metal miniature

Wow, this is finally picking up some speed! I do hope these products do become available relatively soon

kenshin620 wrote:Wow, this is finally picking up some speed!

Speed is relative. The total is what Sedition Wars raises in one day.

Maybe by some miracle it'll make the bear riders... that would be awesome

I'm glad it is working out for them even if I'm not personally going to touch it, any kind of competition to GW is welcome.

I'll be keeping a sharp eye on how long the kits take to get made once this is over, this is either going to make amends for the earlier delays with the chaos warriors or completely murder the company's reputation.

You can't play silly buggers with crowdfunders, if you fail to deliver, then you annoy the people with the largest amount of faith in you and gut your own core fanbase. Felix needs to take this seriously and not offer any of the items up for sale to the public until the casting machines have been used to fulfil all of the indiegogo orders *and* there is a heaping great big pile of stock ready to ship.

Wargamers are a little more tolerant about this sort of thing (even Defiance Games still has a lot of supporters who happily sat through delays as long as the company kept posting WIP shots of the moulds), but there's a limit.

Kroothawk wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:Wow, this is finally picking up some speed!

Speed is relative. The total is what Sedition Wars raises in one day.

In relation to what it has been doing for the first half of its campaign, it has gained quite a bit of momentum

You happy now?

Now I'll admit, I'm not touching this thing with a 10 foot pole till I see some greens

kenshin620 wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:Wow, this is finally picking up some speed!

Speed is relative. The total is what Sedition Wars raises in one day.

In relation to what it has been doing for the first half of its campaign, it has gained quite a bit of momentum

You happy now?

Now I'll admit, I'm not touching this thing with a 10 foot pole till I see some greens

Weren't the greens/test casts shown a really long time ago for the chaos warrriors? That didn't seem to help getting the orders in a timely fashion too much.

warboss wrote:
Weren't the greens/test casts shown a really long time ago for the chaos warrriors? That didn't seem to help getting the orders in a timely fashion too much.

True I suppose

After greens, the stick shortens by 2 feet

Once there are reliable testimonials on shipping and etc, the stick goes away for me

I am sorry AoW, you have just managed to get $15 out of me for the limited edition standard bearer....but any thing other than the Dwarves and it would have been a lot more. The potential for the Chaos/Evil Dwarves is huge with Forge World dragging their heels. I would have been buying boxes of blunderbuss troops (hobgoblins as well) and invested at least a good couple of hundred dollars in these (still less than I have given FW for the limited Chaos Dwarves I have). Maybe next time?

Pathfinders are in, currently its at $31,510 with 18 hours left to go.

With a big last minute push i think they could reach the dwarf cavalry/bear cavalry, it would help alot if Felix threw in a free hero or some something at the 35-40k mark.

On another forum i frequent somebody brought up the idea that this campaign demonstrates that a company doesn't have spend money throwing lots of free stuff at people to have a moderately successful campaign.

While i do think it is somewhat true, if Felix had run this campaign similar to Mantic/sedition wars he would probably be well into the 100-200k region by now.

$31,500 now so that's another stretch goal passed:

Dwarf Pathfinders: 10 multi-component WarCast miniatures regiment of Dwarf rangers armed with hand weapon and crossbow. The box will include a barricade.

Next one is for a box set of Dwarf Cavalry on War Bears but with $7000 needed and less than a day to go I don't think it's going to make it.

Mr Gutsy wrote:On another forum i frequent somebody brought up the idea that this campaign demonstrates that a company doesn't have spend money throwing lots of free stuff at people to have a moderately successful campaign.

I don't know. The campaign seems more like a pre-order push than anything. There haven't been any incentives other than "Give me x amount of money and I may sculpt some additional troop variants sometime in the future". No ability to unlock additional shinnies for pledges if we reach x amount. For me, the sculpts and concepts look nice and I don't doubt the quality, I doubt the ability to deliver...

Mr Gutsy wrote:On another forum i frequent somebody brought up the idea that this campaign demonstrates that a company doesn't have spend money throwing lots of free stuff at people to have a moderately successful campaign.

Yes and no, as this one wasn't going to meet its funding goal with out the addition of the $15 figure.

And even then, it only succeeded, in my opinion, with that perk AND the fact that Felix has already established himself as a producer of awesome looking miniatures.

Yeah. I'm with Alpharius. Run properly, this campaign should have done far, far better. I sort of wish CMoN would simply call Felix and be like, "Listen, dude. With your line, we can be a better version of Mantic. Let's get this funded correctly and get your time tables in order."

Alas, that is not to be.

Me three. If this fether dropped the prices even remotely, say $5 less than they retail for, I would have got me $200 worth easy.

I got my berserkers NIB on ebay including shipping for £22, so what's the incentive for me to spend $110 (£70) on 50 models?

Its cheaper to actually buy the bastards when they come out!

I don't know why, but it really annoys me! Maybe cos I love the models so much?

Im just throwing ideas out there somewhat unfairly cos Ive never met him, but it strikes me the bloke must be either ridiculously egotistical, tight as feth, or just plain stupid to not see what he could have done here.

Seriously, look at all the comments on here and all over the place on the web. Without exaggeration (his models are that good!) if he even just put some individual model stretches in (say 1 or 2 for the 110 buck deal) and dropped the price by say, $10-15 for the 50 models, I reckon the guy would have hit $200,000.

He is that good a sculptor.

But obviously that bad a businessman. I would rather make $10 on a box and sell ten thousand of them than make $15 on a box and sell 100!

BTW is the perk and strech goal information secret? I can't find it on the indiegogo website. Which doesn't help the campaign I guess.

Honestly, Kroot, I dont think there ARE any stretch goals. Despite the fact that I did help fund it, there are literally no incentives for someone to back this project other than having faith in Avatars of War and Felix's sculpting ability.

In other news, I'm gonna ask ya'll for help on my pledge, if you dont mind:

So I think I may up my pledge to 100 models, but I need advice on which models to get. Any help/thoughts would be appreciated since I don't know a ton about Dwarven Army Construction! So far:

Iron Guard (20 models)
Doomcrushers (20 models)
Treasure Hunters (10 models)
Bear Warriors (10 models)
Living Ancestors (5 models)
Bear Lord (5 models)
Limited Standard Bearer (5 models)
Berzerker Lord (5 models)

I think this is a good base, and now I just need to add 20 more models. This, I think, would be best served as one of the following: Regular Warriors (20 models), Veterans (Longbeards) - 20 Models, or two units of Thunder Warriors (Thunderers), Crossbows (Quarrellers), or Pathfinders (Rangers).

Thoughts?

Hmm - we're only 4500 or so from the Bear Calvary - and things really seem to be humming along in the last few days.

If it has a proportional bump that Mantic, et al had in the last few hours we just might snag em. Which would be awesome.

I understand why he did it of course, put all the GW equivalents first as they'll sell more. But I wish all the cool new stuff (Bears, Valks) wasn't at the end :/

Come on bear cav! If it hits that, only cool thing missing is the valks, and maybe he'll do them anyway.

Cincy- I would PM Red_Zeke about army construction.

I'm thinking about chipping in a little more, just because I have some cash in my paypal account. Does anyone know though, if I were to choose one of the dwarf pledges (for $50 or up) does that overwrite the $15 for the STB I pledged a few days ago? (A pledge that hopefully didn't overwrite my raffle entry pledge).

I can't find a page/tab anywhere in Indiegogo that says "my pledges" or anything like that.

Schmapdi wrote:I'm thinking about chipping in a little more, just because I have some cash in my paypal account. Does anyone know though, if I were to choose one of the dwarf pledges (for $50 or up) does that overwrite the $15 for the STB I pledged a few days ago? (A pledge that hopefully didn't overwrite my raffle entry pledge).

I can't find a page/tab anywhere in Indiegogo that says "my pledges" or anything like that.

That's because their system is awful and doesn't wait to fun until the termination of the project like kickstarter.

You actually have to enter a new pledge.

It's a bit lame, but it is what it is.

Kroothawk wrote:BTW is the perk and strech goal information secret? I can't find it on the indiegogo website. Which doesn't help the campaign I guess.

The only information I can find is on the main page:

[DONE] : Miniatures in this category are already done. You can see them here
[PLANNED]: Miniatures in this category will be done. These are the miniatures we were already able to sculpt and produce before this campaign.
[YEAAAAH!]: Miniatures in this category we were not able to do but will now be done thanks to your help by supporting the Dwarf Army campaign!
[Amount]: This is the necessary funding level to raise for that particular miniature to get done.

[DONE] Dwarf Lord with two weapons: Metal miniature
[DONE] Dwarf Noble: Metal miniature
[DONE] Dwarf Thunderlord: Metal miniature
[DONE] Dwarf Berserkers: 20 multi-component plastic miniatures regiment Dwarf Berserker warriors armed with two weapons
[DONE] Dwarf Berserker Champion: Metal miniature
[DONE] Dwarf Berserker Lord: Metal miniature
[DONE] Dwarf Rune Master: Metal miniature
[PLANNED] Dwarf Warriors: 20 multi-component WarCast miniatures regiment of regular Dwarf warriors armed with weapon & shield
[PLANNED] Dwarf Thunder Warriors: 10 multi-component WarCast miniatures regiment of Dwarf warriors armed with pistols
[PLANNED] Dwarf Iron Guard: 20 multi-component WarCast miniatures regiment of elite armoured Dwarf warriors armed with hand weapon & shield.
[PLANNED] Dwarf King: Metal miniature
[PLANNED] Dwarf Doomcrushers: 20 multi-component WarCast miniatures regiment of elite Dwarf warriors armed with two handed hammers.
[PLANNED] Living ancestor: Two animated giant stone statue of a dwarf ancestor (WarCast)
[PLANNED] Dwarf Master Builder – Metal miniature
[PLANNED] Dwarf mortar and crew: 2 Dwarf warriors and mortar (WarCast)
[YEAAAAH!] Dwarf Champion kit (choice of several weapon combos): WarCast miniature
[YEAAAAH!] Dwarf Crossbowmen: 10 multi-component WarCast miniatures regiment of Dwarf warriors armed with crossbow.
[YEAAAAH!] Dwarf Veterans: 20 multi-component WarCast miniatures regiment of regular Dwarf warriors armed with two handed weapons.
[YEAAAAH!] Dwarf treasure Hunters: 10 multi-component WarCast miniatures regiment of Dwarf adventurers.
[YEAAAAH!] Dwarf Bear Warriors: 10 multi-component WarCast miniatures regiment of Dwarf Warriors in bear disguise.
[YEAAAAH!] Dwarf King mounted on Great war bear kit – WarCast miniature
[YEAAAAH!] Dwarf Bear Lord – Metal miniature
[YEAAAAH!] Dwarf Pathfinders: 10 multi-component WarCast miniatures regiment of Dwarf rangers armed with hand weapon and crossbow. The box will include a barricade.
[$38.750] Dwarf cavalry: 10 multi-component WarCast miniatures (5 riders+5 war bears) regiment of elite Dwarf warriors mounted on war bears.
[$41.250] War bears: 5 multi-component armoured war bears (WarCast)
[$48.750] Valkyries: 20 multi-component WarCast miniatures regiment of Dwarf female warriors armed with varied weapons.
[$52.500] Dwarf cannon: 3 Dwarf warriors and mortar (WarCast)
[$53.750] Dwarf light canon: 1 Dwarf Warrior with mobile canon (WarCast)
[$55.000] Dwarf Geologist – Metal miniature
[$56.250] Durgur Hawkeye (Dwarf Sniper) – Metal miniature

Only benefit is more miniatures get made. No "free extra figs or swag" targets.

cincydooley wrote:

Schmapdi wrote:I'm thinking about chipping in a little more, just because I have some cash in my paypal account. Does anyone know though, if I were to choose one of the dwarf pledges (for $50 or up) does that overwrite the $15 for the STB I pledged a few days ago? (A pledge that hopefully didn't overwrite my raffle entry pledge).

I can't find a page/tab anywhere in Indiegogo that says "my pledges" or anything like that.

That's because their system is awful and doesn't wait to fun until the termination of the project like kickstarter.

You actually have to enter a new pledge.

It's a bit lame, but it is what it is.

That's fine - I don't mind multiple tiny charges, as long as I don't lose what I've pledged before. And yeah - Indiegogo is kinda lacking compared to Kickstarter. It won't let me comment on the project because "I've made too many comments" already. I only made two!

If you do end up being able to comment, you might suggest he make a high level last minute pledge- if he wants to get over the bear cav amount. 4K to go, 10 hours left- not impossible, but would be way easier with a tempting 1K last minute option for the high rollers!

Won't let me reply either. We'll see where I fall in about 8 hours

Ehh, only 3 grand away now, with 9 hours left. I am ... cautiously optimistic, about getting bear cavalry.

If it passes that mark, with the way he has it worded, it sounds like you could select some bear cavalry, basically counting as 2 models each?

Dwarf cavalry: 10 multi-component WarCast miniatures (5 riders+5 war bears) regiment of elite Dwarf warriors mounted on war bears.

In that case, it may actually be a somewhat good deal, as I'm sure those will turn out to be quite pricey.

I.e, at the 100 model pledge, you could get 50 bear cav!? Would be nice to have that clarified, too.

I did the exclusive standard bearer but I'm with Mattyrm. He could have gotten a lot more money out of me by offering a discount. I'm a huge Dwarf nut.

Here's to hoping he follows thru and gets this to us sometime in the next 6 months....

6 hours, and less than $2K needed to go to get to bear cav!

Edit: 3 hours to go, and $1K needed for bear cav! Will be close!!

So close. I'm about ready to drop another $200 in there so that'll bring it one step closer.

Only ~700 short at this point, with 3 hours left. I'm thinking we're pretty likely to make it now.

$210 left until Bear Cav. Come on people. Sheesh.

Bear cav inc

carod wrote:Bear cav inc

Woot

The only cool things that didn't get reached were bears by themselves (which should be easy to do if he's doing the cav, anyway) and the valkyries. Pretty sweet push at the end, looking forward to seeing what he comes up with!

I didn't get in on this, but the local FLGS that just opened carries AoW, so it will be awesome to see these on the shelves down the line when they're done (hopefully not too long, he does sound motivated, so we'll see ).

So I think this is what I've decided on:

So here's what I decided on, I think. Subject To change

Dwarf Iron Guard (1 unit of 20)
Doomcrushers (1 unit of 20)
Living Ancestor (1 unit of 2)
Treasure Hunters (1 unit of 10)
Bear Warriors (1 unit of 10)
Bear Cavalry (1 unit of 5)
Warriors (2 units of 20)
King on War Bear (1 model)
Thunder Warriors (2 units of 10)
Bear Lord (1 model)
Berzerker Lord (1 model)

Would love to know your thoughts. Do I take Pathfinders or Crossbowmen instead of Thunder Warriors? Should I take a unit of Veterans instead of something else?

Won't the bear cab and mounted king count as 2 models apiece?

My understanding is that the bear cav counts as 10 models (5 bears, 5 riders) and the King is just like any other hero and counts as 5.

Well, that's what I'm hoping at least.

I picked up 2 of the Standard Bearer, because despite my numerous misgivings about the way Felix has run the campaign (and his pre-orders for the Chaos Warriors) I do love his miniatures, and I figured when he started listening to reason (if only slightly) that he deserved a little bit of support.

It also helped that the figure is limited and won't be available later on. Not that I'm interested in selling such things, but I am interested in getting them. (and one for my wife to paint).

A shame that Felix didn't offer more unlimited $200+ rewards for his backers. He might have gotten a lot more. We can only hope that he learns from this one on a number of levels.

Guess I'll reuse this topic then...



On facebook they showed a pic of their Ironshields

Nice!

Is pricing and availability (!) info listed yet?

Alpharius wrote:Nice!

Is pricing and availability (!) info listed yet?

I assume indiegogo prices will be final price so $25 for 10 or $45 for 20

No idea on release

Ironshields look lovely, but I'd expect nothing less from AoW. Have they sent out all of their Chaos Warriors from Feb yet?

Beautiful models!

scipio.au wrote:Ironshields look lovely, but I'd expect nothing less from AoW. Have they sent out all of their Chaos Warriors from Feb yet?

Im still waiting for my Warriors of Apoc to ship, i placed my order on the 24th of February a few days before the pre-order cut off date. So when i receive mine it will mean they're fairly close to having all the initial pre-orders complete.

I sent them an e-mail late June asking about the status of my order that was supposed to ship June 18th, but they received my message on a Saturday and sent a reply saying they would check for me when they're at the office on Monday. I never received a reply back from them.

I've been meaning to resend another e-mail for a few weeks now, but i always manage to conveniently forget until its the weekend again...

Post the above on their forum.