From a toddler to a teenager, I loved Star Wars. I watched the movies continuously, played as many of the video games (usually on friends' consoles or computers) as I could, hunted for the original toys at flea markets, read all the old novels (like, Splinter of the Mind's Eye old), ate up Tim Zahn's books and most of what followed that, etc, etc, etc. An aunt of mine bought me the Star Wars edition of trivial pursuit and no one would play with me after the first game -- "how do you freaking know how many Storm Troopers got shot in that scene???"
And then Phantom Menace came out. I remember being in shock. "It was good ... right, guys? Guys?" And then Attack of the Clones ... it was just indefensible. Luckily, Knights of the Old Republic and Tartakovsky's Clone Wars restored some of my wide-eyed faith in the franchise. And Revenge of the Sith was ... if I say better than the first two prequels combined, I guess that isn't saying much. But even RotS being ... okay compared to JarJar and "your skin is softer than sand, Padme" wasn't enough.
By the time I realized the ship was sinking for me, I was up to my neck. I think the precise moment I realized it was halfway through the first season of the CGI Clone Wars. It just sort of popped into my head that I hadn't really been interested in the show from the start. I was just watching out of obligation and an unconscious hope that Star Wars might be good again. Nowadays, I see Star Wars stuff and it's just like "oh, George must want to put in a new pool on the ranch." I know it's not all crap and I know that other people are still really into it.
But I feel like Stan in that episode of South Park where he looks around and sees gak everywhere. I see a Darth Vader t-shirt and it looks like someone smeared gak on cotton. I see Star Wars Lego sets and it just looks like a pile of gak sprinkled what must have been very painful sharp-corned plastic bricks. Don't even get me started on the latest MMO. They say free to pay and all I can think of is why did anyway pay to rub this gak in their eyes in the first place.
Enter FFG. FFG is a company that doesn't always knock it out of the park but they do their dammedest from release to release. And now they have the Star Wars license. For the first time in years, Star Wars merchandise is looking a little appealing to me. When I see their new X-Wing miniatures, I'm not just seeing a turd impaled on a clear toothpick which is turn glued to a cheap plastic square. It's looking like a badass fighter plane from the future which is somehow also the past ... like in the old days. Before the dark times. Before the Empire.
But this little light of mine is fragile. It's like a match in a hurricane. I gotta be careful with this one. And I hope FFG is trying to be careful. I wonder if they feel the pressure of all the schlock Star Wars has gone through as it's been wrung for every red cent over the last decade or so especially. And I wonder what the rest of you guys think. Are you a diehard fan who never lost faith? Do you not remember a time before the prequels? What do you think about this monumental property and all the ups and downs its been through?
Took my boyz to Disney World last spring and they had a live action Jedi Training set for young padawans... both boyz "dueled" Darth Vader and Darth Maul... it was all kind of awesome.
Fantasy Flight Games is making X-wing models? Either way link please OP.
I just kinda... ignore the prequels to be honest. I still love Star Wars, the EU is pretty awesome and most of the games are decent. So who needs three more films? My kids if I have some will never know of the "other" Star Wars movies.
As near as I can tell, the definition of "padawan" is "expensive but cheaply made and dumb looking Halloween costume for ages 5 - 10."
When I discovered Star Wars, it was over. It wasn't something any of the kids I went to pre-school had heard of. It wasn't on TV. You couldn't get Star Wars toys or comics unless you found them at garage sales. And yet here was this huge myth cycle complete with fighter planes in space and laser swords. Why didn't anyone else know about this? The people I looked up to as a little kid knew about it. When I asked my dad about Star Wars, it was just like the scene of Obi-wan reminiscing to Luke about the Old Republic.
I grew up in an agnostic home. There were no bible stories, no magical world of prophets and angels and saints. I longed for that as a child -- and there it all was, exciting and timeless in Star Wars. And mysterious! In those days, no one had the slightest clue what a Sith Lord was. It was just some kind of sinister title attached to the impressive figure of Darth Vader, somehow making him even cooler. And the Clone Wars could have been anything; we only knew that those were golden times, times of incredible adventure. Whatever the Clone Wars were about, it was even more exciting than the events of A New Hope.
Watching Star Wars for me in those days was like discovering a lost civilization. And it was also the closest thing I had to the all-important moral cosmology that I am convinced children desperately need (and really should get from Sunday School or the like rather than the movies). Star Wars was my culture. John Williams score was my Mozart and Beethoven and Wagner. Yoda was my spiritual guru. All that pop philosophy on Dagobah meant something real to me.
I have a friend who still loves Star Wars. I asked him how he managed it. He said, "I just don't acknowledge the prequels. I understand that they're out there but in my own private fandom, they don't exist." Somehow, I haven't been able to do that. I remember reading an interview in Wired with George Lucas after RotS came out, where he compared himself to Darth Vader. In the beginning, he had been a good guy fighting against the corporate studio to show us this incredible vision. But looking at the prequels, he said he felt like he had fallen to the Dark Side. Now he was the studio: "I'm not happy that corporations have taken over the film industry, but now I find myself being the head of a corporation, so there's a certain irony there. I have become the very thing that I was trying to avoid. That is Darth Vader - he becomes the very thing he was trying to protect himself against."
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KalashnikovMarine wrote:Fantasy Flight Games is making X-wing models?
You mean according to the in-universe chronology? I read them from Heir to the Empire up through ... uh, maybe Truce at Bakura or The Courtship of Princess Leia.
Yeah, don't be too hard on it. It depends on whose hands the story is in. Of course george is making money off it all, and thus cynicism is easy to embrace, but the fact is that he created this universe where endless tales could be told, and as long as someone is enjoying it, that should be enough. I mean, I'm old-school star wars. I was born the month A New Hope hit the theatres, watched it way too young, and had nightmares of the emperor for years after my mom took me to see RotJ in the theatre. After that, I read some of the comics and some of the novels, but wasn't too serious about them. Went and saw all the re-releases in the theatre, and was totally pumped for the prequels.
Even the prequels were pretty good, I thought. Jar-Jar and the droid army were a small price to pay for Darth Maul, the under-water scenes and the pod race. The other ones had similar cost/benefits. The main problem with them is that george decided he was going to direct them. Why didn't anyone point out to him that A New Hope just wasn't as badass as ESB and RotJ, and that maybe it was because he isn't that great of a director, given that ANH was the only one of the originals that he directed, and to me didn't have the weight of the other two. I think the prequels would have been better in a better director's hands, but they are still pretty awesome movies imo. It's just too bad they weren't less like ANH and more like ESB.
I don't watch much TV anymore, but the few episodes of Clone Wars I've caught have been decent. As for the video games, I've had fun with some over the years, haven't played them all, some have been dumb.
TL/DR: Star Wars is so huge some of it is bound to be cheesy/crappy/dumb, depending on who is telling what story, and who is watching it. Still doesn't take away from the epic awesomeness of much of it.
I read the first three Zahn ones. Actually picked up hardcovers of them in a secondhand book store not long ago.
Good post, Manchu. I had the good fortune of seeing Return of the Jedi in the theater (Empire, too, but I was too young to get it), and the SW stuff was more current when I got into it, but I totally get where you're coming from.
Murdog, it sounds like you're pretty ambivalent about Star Wars and think that what I would call it's 12-year slump is "good enough." I gotta say man, I seriously envy you. I think you have the right attitude.
Mannahnin wrote:I read the first three Zahn ones. Actually picked up hardcovers of them in a secondhand book store not long ago.
Have you had the chance to read them again as of yet? If so, what were your impression compared to back in the 90s? Truth be told, I didn't like them much myself. But in the 90s, they were like water in the desert. Dark Empire had yet to come out -- and those comics simply astounded me. To this day, I think Star Wars has only been that good a few times: the first KotOR and Tales of the Jedi, to be precise.
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Mr Nobody wrote:Mainly because of general Grevious though.
I think Grievous had a huge amount of potential. I wish he had been introduced in the first prequel to fight against an adult Anakin. Darth Maul and Count Dooku were pretty unnecessary. Grievous needed more than one movie.
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Mr Nobody wrote:Does anyone else remember those five minute animated cut-scenes, does anyone else think those were interesting?
Genndy Tartakovsky's Clone Wars. I mentioned them in the OP.
Manchu wrote:You mean according to the in-universe chronology? I read them from Heir to the Empire up through ... uh, maybe Truce at Bakura or The Courtship of Princess Leia.
I think I stopped after Chewie died during the Vong series...
One thing that impressed me was that the series' events is strictly enforced. That is, what ever happened in the previous series had to be acknowledge... no retconning was allowed.
A New Hope was very good, TESB is one of the greatest movies ever made, but you could tell with RTJ that Lucas was more interested in marketing ploys (fething Ewoks) than making a high quality film. His ego led to TPM being a terrible film on nearly all counts and AotC being another example of terrible dialogue and wooden acting despite the fact the story was decent and the setting was excellent. RoTS was much better than the rest of the prequels, but still inferior to all of the original trilogy. The cast, acting, dialogue, and story just wasn't there.
As far as the Expanded Universe goes...at least 75% is utter crap. The Thrawn Trilogy and Hand of Thrawn Duology are probably the best EU novels written. The Yuuzhan Vong series was okay and gets a lot of unwarranted criticism even though it was a breath of fresh air. Too much of the EU is repetitive, corny, or uninspired. Anyone who has read Darksaber or Children of the Jedi understands just how poor some of the writing can be.
It's a fascinating and wonderful fictional setting, but Lucas is a poor writer in many regards. Its pretty sad that KotOR and KotOR 2 tell a better story and have more developed and interesting characters than any of the prequel films.
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Manchu wrote:I had dropped out before the Yuzhan Vong showed up. Seemed a bit jump-the-shark to me when I heard about it.
The EU jumped the shark with Dark Empire and the nonsense about the Emperor being reborn into cloned bodies.
I have the OT on VHS tapes that I patently refuse to get rid of. I keep a VHS player around the house, just for those tapes. I didn't get to see the OT in theatres (I was born the year ESB came out.), but growing up in Germany we didn't get a whole lot of understandable TV. I watched our copies of the OT on an almost weekly basis.
Yuzhan Vong was terrible stuff. As bad as the prequel trilogy was, there was definitely a story that could have been told there. Unfortunately, we'll never know what that story was anymore. I do get the Star Wars: Legacy Dark Horse comics, but they're kinda bad. Some of the Clone Wars comics were pretty well done though.
Lego sets are baller beyond words. I wish I had the money to spare to pick up some of the latest sets.
Gendy Clone Wards was good. New Clone Wars is also good, once you get past the first couple episodes and don't have to hear "Ar Tooey" and "Skyguy". Latest episodes are pretty awesome and dark. Strangely enough, many of the best episodes don't even feature the main characters: they focus on the Clone Troopers.
My favorites are inevitably the X-Wing series by the incredible Michael Stackpole and Aaron Alliston. I, Jedi was also a good one. There's some killer stories in the EU.
Manchu wrote:Dark Empire came out in 1991. Along with Heir to the Empire, this is where the EU starts.
Exactly. It jumped the shark at the very beginning.
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KalashnikovMarine wrote:Truce At Bakura was a classic!
My favorites are inevitably the X-Wing series by the incredible Michael Stackpole and Aaron Alliston. I, Jedi was also a good one. There's some killer stories in the EU.
I, Jedi was one of the better stories out there. Much better handling of the Jedi Academy Trilogy events then the actual trilogy...
Manchu wrote:Dark Empire came out in 1991. Along with Heir to the Empire, this is where the EU starts.
Exactly. It jumped the shark at the very beginning.
I have to disagree. Dark Empire showed us a completely new side of Star Wars that still somehow felt authentic. It was hard to even imagine Ewoks in this world of smugglers' planets and a galaxy with a heart darker than we had ever imagined. The severe inking and surreal watercoloring created a sci-fi fantasy world that was simultaneously gritty and psychedelic. The EU has rarely done as well, been as creative, or taken such risks.
You're a comic book fan, I'm not. Personally, I thought most of the art for it was crap and overly stylized. Not impressive at all.
C'mon, the entire story was about how the Emperor didn't really die and has actually survived in rapidly decaying clones and is now trying to transfer his essence into Leia's unborn child.
Aside from the fact the story took any ludicrous element already in the OT and upped far past 11 it also was an insult to the ending of RTJ which was supposed to be closure in Vader's rejection of the Emperor and the Dark Side (you could even argue that the Emperor represents the Dark Side). Bringing the Emperor back and having Luke go through Vaderesque mini flirtation with the Emperor and the Dark Side was unnecessary and redundant. Luke had already faced down his personal demons when he refused to strike Vader down at the end of RTJ.
The Thrawn Trilogy managed to successfully continue the story by focusing on the repurcussions of the war and restoration of the Republic. Dark Empire just rehashed a grittier version of the OT.
KalashnikovMarine wrote:Truce At Bakura was a classic!
My favorites are inevitably the X-Wing series by the incredible Michael Stackpole and Aaron Alliston. I, Jedi was also a good one. There's some killer stories in the EU.
I, Jedi was one of the better stories out there. Much better handling of the Jedi Academy Trilogy events then the actual trilogy...
It was a bit of a middle finger and intentional fix fic from what I understand. Either way Corran Horn is fething awesome.
Maybe it's because I love Dark Empire but I feel like there had to have been a lot of emotional fallout from RotJ. Could the Emperor really have conquered the whole galaxy just to be defeated by teddy bears? More importantly, it always concerned me that Luke wore black throughout RotJ. Yes, it showed that he was serious -- a Jedi Knight, although Bib Fortuna might scoff. But it also showed a kind of darkness that he had not dealt with and that Vader's last, rather ambiguous words could not resolve. Vader had sacrificed himself to save his son. Luke was right but the world had only become more complicated as a result. Gone was the relatively simplistic worldview of Obi-Wan and Yoda. The future would be murkier and more difficult to navigate. The rigid code of the Jedi would not be up to the task.
So much I want to say but can't articulate... Star Wars, I love you... but why must you hurt me sometimes... and why do I keep coming back to you knowing I'll just get hurt again...
Star Wars...you're breaking my heart. *force choked*
Amaya wrote:A New Hope was very good, TESB is one of the greatest movies ever made, but you could tell with RTJ that Lucas was more interested in marketing ploys (fething Ewoks) than making a high quality film. His ego led to TPM being a terrible film on nearly all counts and AotC being another example of terrible dialogue and wooden acting despite the fact the story was decent and the setting was excellent. RoTS was much better than the rest of the prequels, but still inferior to all of the original trilogy. The cast, acting, dialogue, and story just wasn't there.
Can you just explain how his ego made it a bad film? I can understand people thinking it was a bad film, despite liking it myself, but I fail to see how Lucas' ego affected the quality of the film.
Answering the original question:
I like Star Wars. I enjoyed all of the films, but cannot really decide which was my overall favourite (ESB for tone and plot, ROTS for sheer spectacle, both of which have a place within the stories in my opinion) I enjoy The Clone Wars when I can, but don't watch it religiously, and I often do not understand the criticism levelled at it, sure it's aimed at kids, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't fit in with the rest of the universe, and doesn't deserve to be on the air. It's cheap, no nonsense fun, and you can watch it for a half hour or so without thinking too much about the intricacies of the plot, or who is going to do what, and what happened in that one episode last season with this character to explain why he's doing what he is now. The plots are simple, but it doesn't mean that they're bad, just that they're simple. And you can enjoy them simply for the universe that they're set in.
Lucas' ego ruined Star Wars in that he thought he was a capable director and script writer. He succeeded only once in that regard with A New Hope. The prequels all would have been better with a legit director and screenwriter.
Manchu wrote:Murdog, it sounds like you're pretty ambivalent about Star Wars and think that what I would call it's 12-year slump is "good enough." I gotta say man, I seriously envy you. I think you have the right attitude.
Yeah, it is just a story after all. One of my favorites, though! I guess ambivalent is the right word for all the stuff that has made me wince, because it doesn't outweigh the good stuff, and so in general I'm pretty enthusiastic about Star Wars. Dude, I don't even know what slump you're talking about exactly! Like, the 21st century, or basically since the enhanced originals were released? The prequels and the clone wars have been more 'good' than 'good enough' for me, and people been eating up books, 'mics and vids at the same time! C'mon now Manchu, has it really been that bad?
I know the prequels are hard to swallow at times, but the problem is obviously george's monumental ego bumping the camera all over the place. Those movies had so much goodness in them that george just couldn't resist helming it, and as a result there was alot of wasted potential - most glaring in some the acting, even from some otherwise fairly solid cast members. Alot of that and other stuff that took away from the seriousness of the plot should have been caught in editing at least. He's just not a great director, and there was no reason why he couldn't have got one. But still, he did what he set out to do, which was tell the backstory, and managed to get some pretty epic stuff up there. It's just too bad he's terrible at comedy and can't seem to put a credible action scene with blasters together.
Manchu wrote:Maybe it's because I love Dark Empire but I feel like there had to have been a lot of emotional fallout from RotJ. Could the Emperor really have conquered the whole galaxy just to be defeated by teddy bears? More importantly, it always concerned me that Luke wore black throughout RotJ. Yes, it showed that he was serious -- a Jedi Knight, although Bib Fortuna might scoff. But it also showed a kind of darkness that he had not dealt with and that Vader's last, rather ambiguous words could not resolve. Vader had sacrificed himself to save his son. Luke was right but the world had only become more complicated as a result. Gone was the relatively simplistic worldview of Obi-Wan and Yoda. The future would be murkier and more difficult to navigate. The rigid code of the Jedi would not be up to the task.
The emperor was defeated by the skywalkers - taking out the sheild generator so that the fleet could take out the death star just meant luke didn't have to do it himself.
I also have a different take on the black. He appears in RotJ as a Jedi Master, and I believe he truly has turned his back on the dark side. The black sigified that he was serious about the fact he was going to be an agent of death, destroy his enemies and win the war.
And don't tell me you're hatin ewoks! That's hatin just to hate, man. Remember the TV movies? Good stuff for my goat-ass at the time fo sho.
As for the fallout from RotJ, you've got some interesting thoughts there. I still think he'll eventually make Episodes 7-9, and detail that a little. He won't be able to resist. We can only hope that he hires a great director. Continuity with any literature be damned!
On that note, not having read a pile of star wars books but a few, I have to recommend 'Tales From Jabbas Palace'. Hilarious take on a bunch of the characters from the Tattoine scenes in Jedi. There are a half dozen plots against Jabba going on when Luke and Co. get the job done!
I prefer to focus on the KoToR era since that's way cooler...
Though oddly enough it's almost exactly the same despite being several thousand years apart apparently...
I really like most of it. I like the new movies too and a lot of EU also. Just recently I began reading the comics on my tablett which is rather entertaining espaccally the Old Republic comics.
I also have a different take on the black. He appears in RotJ as a Jedi Master, and I believe he truly has turned his back on the dark side. The black sigified that he was serious about the fact he was going to be an agent of death, destroy his enemies and win the war.
And don't tell me you're hatin ewoks! That's hatin just to hate, man. Remember the TV movies? Good stuff for my goat-ass at the time fo sho.
Luke turns to the Dark Side briefly in Dark Empire.
Ewoks are dumb.
And if Lucas ever makes episodes 7-9... Well, I'll just have to go on a rampage.
Personally I didn't mind ep 1-3 because I have an amazing ability to ignore all the plot holes and just go with it.
As for the non-movie stuff I have read the Bane trilogy and loved it in addition to one book post RTJ and an Order 66 which was a good story but had several things in it there were umm
Spoiler:
Jedi Clones that didn't follow order 66 and went to Korriban to lead "Normal" lives with wives and kids
There is one good side to the prequels. Finding people who defend them, sitting them down, and forcing them to watch the Red Letter Media reviews, which spell out in exacting detail how bad the movies are. Then asking them to repeat their arguments.
If the prequels being "bad" were enough to make you doubt, then your "faith" wasn't as strong as you thought it was.
I'm still a fan. The Stormtrooper costume (in the closet), the Fett helmet (autographed by Jeremy Bulloch), the Vader and Royal Guard helmets all sitting in the closet with it, testify to that.
I don't regard it all as "canon".
I guess you could say the stuff I don't agree with can be seen as the "apocrypha" for the series.
Bromsy wrote:There is one good side to the prequels. Finding people who defend them, sitting them down, and forcing them to watch the Red Letter Media reviews, which spell out in exacting detail how bad the movies are. Then asking them to repeat their arguments.
"badness" is objective. Sure you can force someone to watch those videos, but that doesn't mean that they stop liking the films, it just means that you're being a dick and trying to ruin their fun.
Bromsy wrote:There is one good side to the prequels. Finding people who defend them, sitting them down, and forcing them to watch the Red Letter Media reviews, which spell out in exacting detail how bad the movies are. Then asking them to repeat their arguments.
See, I am a pretty big fan of the original trilogy, then when the prequels came out, I knew that I didn't like them, I just couldnt put my finger on exactly why... I knew that there were things wrong, like the plot, and certain elements made me say "What?" while watching, but it wasn't until the RLM reviews that it sort of clicked just why the prequels were so bad.
That said, I don't force people to sit down and watch them, I just point out that the guy has a pretty good handle on why they are so terrible and that they should view them.
murdog wrote:
TL/DR: Star Wars is so huge some of it is bound to be cheesy/crappy/dumb, depending on who is telling what story, and who is watching it. Still doesn't take away from the epic awesomeness of much of it.
That sums it up nicely!
SW is whatever you want it to be and how you yourself would define your fandom ...
I know people that deny the existence of anything apart from the original trilogy. If thats how theyd like to handle it - okay, its not my place to judge. However I do have an issue with people trying to tell me that I ought to agree that the sequels suck. Sure, theyre not what they couldve been. Theyre certainly not what I wanted them to be. But then its not my story thats being told. Neither is it that of any of the die-hard fans. Its Georges.
And even JarJar is not going to take away the moment I first saw ESB, the greatest movie ever made.
I always thought changing Fett's very few lines of dialogue to Jango's voice was unnecessary. I mean, it's quite possible that he gets horrifically burned or is infact a different man beneath the armour.
Seeing the child versions of Boba and Vader kinda killed it a bit for me too.
The whole idea of the Clone Wars, while pretty nice looking doesn't really fit into the original triology. I think having storm troopers be clones and order 66 were some of the biggest cop outs. I understand the military turning against the Jedi due to brainwashing/mental programming, but why the entire galactic council?
I think the prequels have some great ideas and characters, but they kind of loose their way.
I like StarWars, its a cool universe to get lost in for sure. KOTOR games are badass to the extreme, as is the Battlefront games. So part of me really likes it, but I also see where the newer trilogies make people want to vomit. I only like Episode1 because I think Darth Maul was a fething serious badass, that needed more light shown on him. And even Liam Neeson made me chuckle a few times with how he used the force. But that was it. Episode 2 was truly a steamer. I only liked Jango Fett from that whole movie....1 guy. (Ieven named a pet after him) and Rise of the Sith.....well.....it was bad. Its kindda watchable at times, but also not.
So yea, Lucas really fethed the pooch on the whole thing. Ive noticed that I like StarWars when he has no creative control over it.
1. The clone wars are mentioned by Luke in ANH. When he first meets Obi-Wan Kenobi he even says "You fought with my father in the Clone Wars."
2. Stormtroopers are not clones, they're human soldiers. Story goes the emperor was a bit worried with exactly how well the clones could take down Jedi so he did away with the clone program.
3. I agree that while the time frame between the fall of the Jedi in RotS and the start of ANH is short (18ish years?) remember that most of the galactic senate is bought and paid for by Palpatine. They're corrupt, greedy and don't really have any reason to care. Also many senators do remain loyal to the Jedi (Mon Mothma, for instance) but have no real power. When the aenate is dissolved in ANH we dont even see them.
4. I agree that the prequels sort of lose their way. I think the attempts by Lucas to shoehorn some connecrions in there (like C3-P0) hurt the films.
Also, re: Grievous. If you want to see more badass Grievous then you should watch Clone Wars. He is routinely one of the show's top villains, consistently out shining Dookoo, and even the Emperor.
I said this before in another thread re: Clone Wars and I feel it fits well here:
The series takes place during the Genndy Tartakovsky series timeline. It is also a little more mature? adult? than it would seem at first glance. There's a good amount of brutal violence and on-screen death in the series, and not just in the "big explosion and people don't get back up" variety. For example, Count Dooku at one point forces one man to shoot another, breaks the first's neck with the Force, then tosses his corpse aside like a rag doll. Many of the episodes are very dark, and there is a bit of self-referential humor to the series. The characters themselves are also a bit more fleshed out during the series, and the interactions between Kenobi and Asajj Ventress are almost perfectly voiced.
Now, what I'm going to say next is going to seem like a blatant lie. You're going to look at the line, shake your head and say "You're lying. There's no way." but here it is anyway:
This series made me not hate Jar-Jar Binks.
I'm going to repeat that, as I'm sure you're looking at my post like I just admitted to eating puppies and kittens while sitting on a throne of dead babies.
This series made me not hate Jar-Jar Binks.
First off: the voice actor is different. His voice is deeper, far less grating on the ears, and he screams a LOT less.
Secondly: He is actually portrayed as a serious character often times. Somewhere along the line, he grew a backbone, sacked up and decided to actually be a real character.
Now, for all the praise I've given it, there are a bunch of really, really bad episodes. The 4th season has been pretty lackluster so far, especially the C3-PO/R2-D2 episodes.
I saved this bit for last, as I really think it bears mentioning:
Perhaps the most amazing part of this series is the Clones. They're all over the place, in just about every episode, and are the show's main chaff. They look nigh-identical and are all voiced by one person: Dee Bradley Baker. I feel this needed to be a separate point, because of how amazingly unique the series manages to make them. Sure, you do get the legions of faceless troopers whose sole purpose is to get shot, stabbed, eaten, melted, blown up, thrown off cliffs, impaled and otherwise die their gribbly deaths. Despite that, there is an amazing amount of unique development in episodes like "Rookies"(S1 E05), "Clone Cadets" (S3 E01) and "ARC Troopers" (S3 E02).
I loved the films as a kid, but my housemate is one of the biggest star wars fan girls in existence and that is enough to put me off it for life. That and anything to do with Joss Whedon.
I also happen to work with the girlfriend of the guy who draws the engineering diagrams for the books.
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I was out of Star Wars the moment the Ewoks appeared on the silver screen. I made the switch to GI Joe after that. Way cooler toys at the time. Unfortunately, GI Joe jumped the shark with all that day-glo camouflage a few years later.
I agree with most of you all here, but I want to say that some of the best novels didn't stop with, The Thrawn Trilogy, The Truce of Bakara and I, Jedi. I have not seen any mention of the Legacy of the Force or The Fate of the Jedi series. My faith in Star Wars died with the CG clone war series, but was renewed 10 fold with The Legacy of the Force series. It is by far one of the best series of Star Wars novels ever and the follow up series The Fate of the Jedi is not bad itself.
I'm a lot like you Manchu. I was a hard as Carbonite fan. I use to be able to tell you specs and schematics of Twin-Ion Engine fighters, and Corellian YT-1300's. I could compare and contrast the strenghts and weaknesses of an Imperial Star Destroyer and a Mon Calamari Cruiser. I could literally quote the movies line for line from beginning to end exactly wiht no prompts.
Up until that fateful midnight showing of The Phantom Menace. I don't know exactly what happened, but my fandom simply broke that night.
Since then, I haven't even bothered with a single Star Wars thing; book, tv show, toys, games, nothing. The magic was simply gone. I don't even watch the original ones anymore.
Edit: the only thing I would be interested in now would be an updated Tie Fighter vs. X-wing video game.
streamdragon wrote:Wait... you dont like the Clone Wars series but you do like a series of novels widely regarded as the worst EU crap available?
I don't see it. Sorry your opinion sucks. A quick google search showed me that it isn't widely regarded as the worst EU books and that you are full of gak. Obviously you have different tastes. For instance you imply that the clone wars is better, therefore your opinion is invalid.
Amaya wrote:A New Hope was very good, TESB is one of the greatest movies ever made, but you could tell with RTJ that Lucas was more interested in marketing ploys (fething Ewoks) than making a high quality film. His ego led to TPM being a terrible film on nearly all counts and AotC being another example of terrible dialogue and wooden acting despite the fact the story was decent and the setting was excellent. RoTS was much better than the rest of the prequels, but still inferior to all of the original trilogy. The cast, acting, dialogue, and story just wasn't there.
Can you just explain how his ego made it a bad film? I can understand people thinking it was a bad film, despite liking it myself, but I fail to see how Lucas' ego affected the quality of the film.
Answering the original question:
I like Star Wars. I enjoyed all of the films, but cannot really decide which was my overall favourite (ESB for tone and plot, ROTS for sheer spectacle, both of which have a place within the stories in my opinion) I enjoy The Clone Wars when I can, but don't watch it religiously, and I often do not understand the criticism levelled at it, sure it's aimed at kids, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't fit in with the rest of the universe, and doesn't deserve to be on the air. It's cheap, no nonsense fun, and you can watch it for a half hour or so without thinking too much about the intricacies of the plot, or who is going to do what, and what happened in that one episode last season with this character to explain why he's doing what he is now. The plots are simple, but it doesn't mean that they're bad, just that they're simple. And you can enjoy them simply for the universe that they're set in.
I'd place the movies in this order.
1. Star Wars (A new Hope my ass it was an wil always be FREAKING STAR WARS)
2. Empire Strikes Back: better movie and I like it more, but the first was utterly ground breaking. Best scenes and tone of the series I think.
3. ROTJ if you fast forward all scenes with Ewoks, but thats mostly just because of the end scene else switch 4 for this
4. Revenge of the Sith. Leave out the Grievous nonsense and mute the dialog in the last battle and its pretty good actual. "Evil is a point of view."
5. AoftClones: good action. Again fast forward everything on Naboo and its not too bad. COme to think of it if you could edit it and Revenge of the Sith it would be one good (albeit long) movie.
6. Phantom. No just no. The only decent part is the jedi fight scene. thats it.
Easy E wrote:The magic was simply gone. I don't even watch the original ones anymore.
That actually is what I've experienced, too! I think it's the saddest part. It's also the hardest part to explain. That's why I envy the people who can just compartmentalize the prequels away from the OT.
Edit: the only thing I would be interested in now would be an updated Tie Fighter vs. X-wing video game.
What if it was in miniatures? (see link on page 1)
I recall when, as a very young Fitzz, I had just come into the house from being outside playing ( kids used to do that a long time ago...crazy ehh) and seeing, for the first time, the commericial advertising the first Star Wars film.
I knew right at that moment that I was witnessing something that would be huge, though as a child I wasn't aware of just how huge it would become.
A month or so later when the film hit the theatres I was one of the first in line to see it, and watching...I was just blown away, my seven year old brain could barely process the absolute awsomeness I was experiancing...was really one of those " life changing" moments...you know, like the first time you kiss a girl or get hit so hard you see stars...one of those events that you just know will be etched into your mind forever.
Despite my dislike of most of the prequels ( Sith is ok)...the Star Wars universe will always be very special to me.
I love the Star wars universe but don't really care much for what has grown around the original three films. I have a book called The Illustrated Star Wars Universe which has some nice artwork from various settings, plus some fluff which I think is written by Kevin J Anderson. I've read the first part of the Thrawn trilogy, which I found to be readable enough but nothing special; I mostly stay away from such novels but may be tempted if there were anything decent on the graphic novel front.
streamdragon wrote:Wait... you dont like the Clone Wars series but you do like a series of novels widely regarded as the worst EU crap available?
I don't see it. Sorry your opinion sucks. A quick google search showed me that it isn't widely regarded as the worst EU books and that you are full of gak. Obviously you have different tastes. For instance you imply that the clone wars is better, therefore your opinion is invalid.
Spoiler:
Did you actually watch any of The Clone Wars? I mean, it's all well and good saying that it's awful and ruined your opinion of star wars and raped a kitten, but can you actually say what you actually found wrong with it? Was it the characters? The storylines? The tone?
I mean, if you've seen it and don't like it then fine, but the vast majority of people who've told me that they don't like The Clone Wars have formed the opinion entirely from either the trailer or from hearsay, and very rarely actually watched the program.
Anything Zhan or Stackpole write for the EU is worthwhile. I was a lot like Manchu. I read everything in the EU and watched the movies constantly. I ditched school the day APM came out in theatres with 2 of my friends, took a bus to the movies, and sat down for my Star Wars in theatre movie experience......
And then my love for starwars took an arrow to the chest. I was bleeding out slowly and didn't know it. I still read the books and followed the EU but it didn't seem the same. Then when AotC came out I went to a midnight showing. God help me that's when I realized I'd completely bled out. I was done with the star wars EU. Partly because my love of starwars was truly dead but also partly because if the EU didn't matter to the man who created star wars then what was the point.
I saw the third movie once in theatres just for the fight scenes and special effects but for me it was an action movie. I didn't even bother critiquing it. Just watched pretty flashing lights and tried to forget it was a star wars movie so I could get a little more enjoyment out of it.
Overall if it had been a different director something might have been salvagable. And if someone was there to smack Lucas in the head when he got out of line again, maybe salvagable. My questions is how bad of a director do you have to be to make a movie with Liam Neeson, Natalie Portman, and Ewan McGregor suck? How hard to you have to work to get them to present characters that wooden?
Anyway, Corran Horn is the coolest Jedi friggin ever and I can still read I, Jedi from time to time due to it's awesomeness. Timothy Zhan is a solid writer even if Lucas burned the best written trilogy in the EU.
tl:dr - Mostly similar feelings as Manchu for slightly different reasons.
streamdragon wrote:Wait... you dont like the Clone Wars series but you do like a series of novels widely regarded as the worst EU crap available?
I don't see it. Sorry your opinion sucks. A quick google search showed me that it isn't widely regarded as the worst EU books and that you are full of gak. Obviously you have different tastes. For instance you imply that the clone wars is better, therefore your opinion is invalid.
Whoa now. Unbunch and take a deep breath
First off, let me make sure I'm thinking of the right books:
Spoiler:
This is the series that follow Jacen Solo, Jaina Solo and Ben Skywalker, where Jacen talks to Vergere goes all dark side and attempts possibly the worst Sith coup in Galactic history, right? Where Jaina goes to train with Boba Fett (lolz immortal, thanks Karen Travis) and Jacen kills Mara Jade? Mara Jade who created bubbles of Force to walk on to avoid landmines and other silliness? Where Jacen plunges the galaxy into another massive civil war and then justifies it by saying it was to protect his daughtrt?
Do I have the right books?
Secondly: If you havent been keeping up with Clone Wars you should consider giving it another shot. The Battle for Dac episodes, for instance, were very well done, dark and a bit grisly. The fight between Grievous and the Gungans was awesome, as was most of the Zyggerean slave arc.
Nope. Lego and Star Wars have been really big since the mid-90's I think. I remember seeing pics on the net of people building things kits hadn't even been made yet. Nothing like a mastiff sized AT-AT (even if he ran out of white/gray bricks)
Imagine Apoc-scale lego battles on huge, custom built lego tabletops! God, building those tables would be so much fun. . . . if only I had thousands of dollars to spend on legos. . .sigh.
I really dont want to think about how much Ive spent on Star Wars Legos...
LAAT/i gunship
LAAt/c drop ship with AT-OT AT-TE walker
Clone Turbo Assault Tank
Y-Wing bomber
big carrier ship with the red top whose name escapes me
Ahsoka's star fighter
to name a few off the top of my head...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LordofHats wrote:I've seen people use legos instead of magnets to swap parts on larger 40k models, like predators and land raiders.
streamdragon wrote:I really dont want to think about how much Ive spent on Star Wars Legos...
I've been thinking about ordering a Y-Wing this morning. I think I will go ahead and preorder the X-Wing Miniatures game stuff instead. Okay Star Wars, here we go again!
streamdragon wrote:I really dont want to think about how much Ive spent on Star Wars Legos...
I've been thinking about ordering a Y-Wing this morning. I think I will go ahead and preorder the X-Wing Miniatures game stuff instead. Okay Star Wars, here we go again!
I have nothing but good experiences with FFG so let me know how you like the game.
I also do really enjoy the Star Wars Legos. Granted I would probably enjoy just about any lego set, but as an avid Star Wars fan I do find myself drawn to them more than, say, the Atlantis or City sets.
streamdragon wrote:...HOW HAVE I NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT?
I'm pretty sure I've seen some here on Dakka actually. I know I remember seeing a predator set up with some bricks glued about for swapping the turret.
Anybody who has been following my posts the last two years will know the contempt in which I hold George Lucas.
He wrecked modern cinema with his blockbuster/franchise approach, he inflicted Jar Jar Binks on us, and he almost sunk Indiana Jones with that gak that was Crystal skull.
The phantom Menace was awful, clone war horrendus, and revenge of the sith complete and utter brown stuff!
It's not surprise that Empire strikes back (directed and written by other people) is far superior to the other films in the series.
Without Harrison Ford to carry him, Lucas has very little to offer, and as Harrison once said: "You can write it, George, but you sure as **** can't say it!" Case closed!
streamdragon wrote:Wait... you dont like the Clone Wars series but you do like a series of novels widely regarded as the worst EU crap available?
I don't see it. Sorry your opinion sucks. A quick google search showed me that it isn't widely regarded as the worst EU books and that you are full of gak. Obviously you have different tastes. For instance you imply that the clone wars is better, therefore your opinion is invalid.
Whoa now. Unbunch and take a deep breath
First off, let me make sure I'm thinking of the right books:
Spoiler:
This is the series that follow Jacen Solo, Jaina Solo and Ben Skywalker, where Jacen talks to Vergere goes all dark side and attempts possibly the worst Sith coup in Galactic history, right? Where Jaina goes to train with Boba Fett (lolz immortal, thanks Karen Travis) and Jacen kills Mara Jade? Mara Jade who created bubbles of Force to walk on to avoid landmines and other silliness? Where Jacen plunges the galaxy into another massive civil war and then justifies it by saying it was to protect his daughtrt?
Do I have the right books?
Secondly: If you havent been keeping up with Clone Wars you should consider giving it another shot. The Battle for Dac episodes, for instance, were very well done, dark and a bit grisly. The fight between Grievous and the Gungans was awesome, as was most of the Zyggerean slave arc.
You're thinking of the right books and the Clone Wars storyline (all of it across every form of media) is much better.
You forgot to mention that this is the same Jacen who became one with the Force at the end of the Vong series and should be a prime example of a Jedi/Force User who can not fall to the Dark Side or at least become a much more subtle form of evil instead of the typical Darth donkey-cave.
Always been a Star Wars fan ever since I watched that VHS cassette one of my sisters rented as a kid. I don't think my appreciation for the franchise will ever fade entirely. I'm a bit fickle-minded when it comes to my interests, however, jumping back and forth between different interests - so Star Wars is pretty much a "phase" I keep returning to from time to time. Perhaps this helps keeping it fresh for me.
Either way, I have had a lot of fun with it over a lot of years, and do not see why this should change in the future. There has always been something cool about it around, be it something to watch, something to play, or something to read. I've been to costumed conventions (even dining with Michael Sheard aka Admiral Ozzel once - RIP Mike, you were an amazing man to hang out with), and have participated in a chat-based roleplaying game for more than a decade, making friends I eventually even went on vacation with. Considering how many there are, I do not own a lot of the novels, comics or games - but those that I do have were generally good. Perhaps I've just been lucky and grabbed the right ones all the time.
Quick Recap:
TIE Fighter was awesome, Battlefront was fun, and I still want a sequel to both. Rebellion was great as well. It may have been just a dumbed down Master of Orion, but the Star Wars flair really made it special.
Bookwise I have read both Thrawn trilogies as well as Darksaber, Truce at Bakura, Tales of Jabba's Palace and Han Solo at Star's End. The latter is a rather old novel trilogy about a younger Han Solo and his adventures before he even meets Chewie. Very recommendable! I also thought I'd like the Republic Commando novels, but whilst the first one was great, sadly the series quickly devolved into Mando fanwank where even the Jedi characters were hating on themselves. I wanted gritty military fiction, not the author hyping on Mandos coupled with a hint of Twilight.
Nowadays, I find myself collecting more background books than actual stories. Stuff like the Atlas (very cool) or the Jedi Path and the Book of Sith.
In terms of comics, I have read a few of the reeeally old Marvel ones, as well as some Rogue Squadron adventures, and the one about Guri. I particularly enjoyed the "Imperial Perspective" comics because they showed the other side of the coin for once, like an Imperial commander having a war trauma for accidentally bombarding a hospital after rebel terrorists falsified the targeting data, or a Star Wars version of the movie "Zulu" where a company of Imperial troops faces a horde of primitive natives on some recently colonized backwater world.
I am also following the comics of the Legacy-series, which takes place about 120 years after the movies; a setting completely free of established characters, with new and intrigueing political situations and a bunch of rather unlikely protagonists. A great setting, feels very fresh, yet still having loads of connections to the stuff you know and love at every corner.
That the franchise has grown so much over the decades means some lower quality stuff trickling in almost inevitably, though in many cases I think it's more a matter of personal preferences, especially where different target groups are concerned. Keep in mind that Star Wars has existed for more than 30 years now, which means that there are now a number of generations of fans as well as authors.
As for the Prequels: I thought they were generally enjoyable. The Phantom Menace was meh; I couldn't bring myself to like Annie, but I liked the battle droid designs. Not a movie I'd watch more than one time, but I'd just call it boring rather than horrible tbh. Attack of the Clones was much better already. Really liked Ewan McGregor and Temuera Morrison in there, and the battle at the end was cool. Revenge of the Sith was almost up to par with the original movies; just the right mix of epic space/ground battles, exciting duels and simple character interaction. Very dark movie compared to the other two. Bonus points for the last scene with the Death Star under construction.
Manchu wrote:Don't even get me started on the latest MMO. They say free to pay and all I can think of is why did anyway pay to rub this gak in their eyes in the first place.
For real? I remain convinced that TOR is awesome. It could be better, and them breaking the canon on a number of occasions is something that made me nerdrage quite a bit, but still I think it's a great game. I've been playing since day 1 and my sub has been active ever since. I like it for both being Star Wars as well as having some great stories to tell. At its core, the mechanics themselves may be standard MMO fare, but what is certainly not standard is your ability to influence how you want to solve a mission. This kind of interaction really increased my immersion and allowed me to build a number of distinct personalities with my characters, rather than having each of them act the same way all the time.
Example: I've just finished Alderaan once again with another of my characters, and on Imperial side there's a mission where you have to thwart an underground attack on one of the noble houses. You're given a bunch of explosives and told to blow up a secret tunnel the invaders are using. I did this mission with all of my Imperial characters, but none of them finished it the same way.
After having fought back a bunch of invaders and placing the explosives, the character encounters the leader of the strike team - another Alderaanian noble, who then challenges the player to a duel. My characters reaction was as follows:
- Bounty Hunter with a tough shell/soft heart attitude: Duels the noble. Lets him live in exchange for a vow of allegiance to the employer.
- Sith Duelist with a twisted code of honour: Duels the noble, then executes him.
- Ruthless Imperial Agent with a 'no unnecessary risks' policy: "No dice." *presses a remote, burying the noble under a bunch of rocks*
I love seeing how the events unfold in different ways depending on your choices. Not only do the various classes all have unique dialogues, you can actually skip entire legs of a mission chain, or get different missions altogether simply based on what you said at some point. As another example: I thought it was great when my shifty Twi'lek Smuggler looking for a treasure on Tattoine got cornered by a Sith NPC and was all like "Don't kill me! I tell you where you have to go to find that relic!" ... and was then cornered by a Jedi NPC and was all like "Don't kill me! I know where that Sith you were looking for went!"
The resulting three-party meeting in front of that treasure I've been looking for was rather hilarious.
JazzGB wrote:God I love the Clone Wars cartoon...it's awesome.
I loved Dexter's Lab back then, but I just cannot get myself watching Star Wars in that style. The CGI series on the other hand I love. The clones are awesome. Ahsoka is awesome. Obi-Wan is awesome. The story quality waxes and wanes, but there are some real gems to be found in this series.
Hulksmash wrote:Anyway, Corran Horn is the coolest Jedi friggin ever
Corran Horn is a giant Mary-Sue.
Manchu wrote:As a wargamer, I really really really hope they have investigated using these thousands of mini-figs with some kind of rules.
I also had fun with the "Pocket Models" game, which basically had you collect stamp-out plastic cards to build miniature starfighters and capital ships with, each ship having values such as shield strength, weapon power, maneuverability, hitpoints and so on. I suppose you could say it was like a precursor to FFG's miniature game ... just that it didn't feature only starfighters but anything up to a Star Destroyer.
One of the best things was that the game also came with plastic explosions which you could "clip on" to the ships to represent damage. 1 explosion = 1 hitpoint.
Really? I didn't find him to be a Mary-Sue. But to each their own. I liked him because he was a different kind of Jedi-Knight. Most the rest were over the top archetypes and at the time I found him quite different.
Battlefront did get a sequel FYI, creatively called Battlefront II.
Also the Legacy comics do have several characters that were created back in the Clone Wars comics so it's not 100% new. K'kruhk and Tra'Saa are baller beyond words though so I dont really care. Unless you mean characters from the movies?
Can not agree more on the Karen Travis clone/mando stuff. So bad. So effing bad. Lolz Boba Fett doesnt age anymore... ugh vomitous.
And I agree about TOR. I enjoyed playing it immensely, evenif it had several glaring flaws that should never have seen release.
Hulksmash wrote:Really? I didn't find him to be a Mary-Sue. But to each their own. I liked him because he was a different kind of Jedi-Knight. Most the rest were over the top archetypes and at the time I found him quite different.
I think that's one part of why I don't like him. He is too different from the archetype. From how he acts to his success with women to Corellian Jedi being "different" in general. Even his X-Wing just had to have a different colour than all the other starfighters. It's okay if you follow a unique doctrine as a Force user in general - there's countless traditions after all. But from someone who calls himself a Jedi Knight, I expect him to stick to the Jedi Knight archetype.
His heroic exploits being a bit too amazing for my taste are the other part. Did you know that his author was posing as Corran Horn himself for the TCG photo?
But as you say, it really is a matter of preferences, especially where individual thresholds concerning "what is too cool" are concerned.
In 40k, I hold a similar opinion to the Space Wolves and the massive distance between them and other Space Marines. Curiously, "being different" and "being awesome" often seem to appear as a pair.
streamdragon wrote:Battlefront did get a sequel FYI, creatively called Battlefront II.
Yeah, I have that too - I meant a current sequel, so Battlefront III.
Loved the addition of space battles in BFII.
streamdragon wrote:Also the Legacy comics do have several characters that were created back in the Clone Wars comics so it's not 100% new. K'kruhk and Tra'Saa are baller beyond words though so I dont really care. Unless you mean characters from the movies?
Pretty much any remotely important character, be it movies or EU. I don't even know the names you mentioned, so ...
Granted, Luke does show up as a ghost a bunch of times, but that doesn't really make him a protagonist. I think. >_>
Hulksmash wrote:Really? I didn't find him to be a Mary-Sue. But to each their own. I liked him because he was a different kind of Jedi-Knight. Most the rest were over the top archetypes and at the time I found him quite different.
And he's boss! But that's my opinion
A lot of people consider him and Mara Jade to be Mary Sues. I disagree. He's a skilled fighter pilot, above average Jedi, and has good detective skills thanks to his CorSec days, but he's far from being an all powerful omniscient Force god like people make him out to be over one scene in I, Jedi.
Don't know if anybody is interested in the new "1313" - Video Game, about the criminal underworld on Coruscant. It looks nice, but we haven't seen any solid gameplay (more than a few seconds). It's also rated provisionally as an 18, but again that doesn't mean a thing.
Amaya wrote:A lot of people consider him and Mara Jade to be Mary Sues. I disagree. He's a skilled fighter pilot, above average Jedi, and has good detective skills thanks to his CorSec days, but he's far from being an all powerful omniscient Force god like people make him out to be over one scene in I, Jedi.
Ah, the book where he seduces the sexy villain.
Corran Horn is pretty much James Bond with Force powers, at least that's what I always thought. I generally prefer "lower scale" protagonists who achieve an objective without too much "epic" heroics, though, so I acknowledge that I always have a certain bias when looking at any character. I usually find most Jedi uninteresting due to their special powers, which makes me all the more angry at Traviss for actually managing to write a Jedi character that I like and then messing up so bad in the subsequent novels. I do like the Imperial Knights from Legacy, though, as they have a counterbalance in the Sith they fight, plus they are kept in check by their own dogmatic codes. Ahsoka from the CGI series I probably like because she's still a Padawan and doesn't come across like some big hero all by herself, rather still making mistakes, often due to her temperament.
It's my old preference for a "narrative balance" and characters having strengths as well as weaknesses. A Force-sensitive character just needs considerable weaknesses for me to consider him or her balanced in a way that I could like them.
Mara Jade could have been so much more as well. She had huge issues with her past, but at some point that whole stuff was just checked off, and suddenly my interest in her dropped. Shame.
But that's just me. Would be boring if we all like the same characters, I guess. My favourite heroes are usually somewhat less glamorous. Han Solo, of course. But also lesser characters like Pellaeon or Lieutenant Sunber. Even Daala. As much as she f***ed up with her outdated tactics, I give her massive props on how she dealt with the Imperial warlords and basically reunited the splintered Empire all on her own.
As for 1313: I'm a bit cautious after the whole "The Force Unleashed" gak, but what I've seen so far is intrigueing. I will keep an eye out for more details.
Bromsy wrote:There is one good side to the prequels. Finding people who defend them, sitting them down, and forcing them to watch the Red Letter Media reviews, which spell out in exacting detail how bad the movies are. Then asking them to repeat their arguments.
"badness" is objective. Sure you can force someone to watch those videos, but that doesn't mean that they stop liking the films, it just means that you're being a dick and trying to ruin their fun.
No. That doesn't make me a dick, it makes me a crusader for good and justice. Letting people be stupid and wrong is not the right path. I choose the difficult road of trying to help people rather than let them wallow in ignorance and sin.
The only thing that I am worried about with 1313, is there are hints that the main Character might be Boba Fett. Which is awesome, and a little cheesy at the same time.
Lynata wrote:I'm a bit cautious after the whole "The Force Unleashed" gak
I enjoyed the first Force Unleashed enough to play through it twice. It had the right ambience, IMO, if not anything particularly cool regarding gameplay. For someone looking for "authentic" Star Wars, that was enough for me. I don't know anything about FUII (lol, just not realized the game can be abbreviated "FU") except that Kanluwen told me it was way too short.
Litterally adore all of it, favourates are ALL the movies, i swear episode 1 is actually well good, the mix of battlescenes and the very end hasn't been matched for me in any of the other movies.
The games are also great, personal favourates are rogue squadron on PC, and the simply brilliant in every way Knights of the Old Republic I and II.
Also, now and forever, i am willing to give anything at all, including sexual favours, organs and my abilities as a badminton player for a real-life lightsaber. Any colour accepted.
Bromsy wrote:There is one good side to the prequels. Finding people who defend them, sitting them down, and forcing them to watch the Red Letter Media reviews, which spell out in exacting detail how bad the movies are. Then asking them to repeat their arguments.
"badness" is objective. Sure you can force someone to watch those videos, but that doesn't mean that they stop liking the films, it just means that you're being a dick and trying to ruin their fun.
No. That doesn't make me a dick, it makes me a crusader for good and justice. Letting people be stupid and wrong is not the right path. I choose the difficult road of trying to help people rather than let them wallow in ignorance and sin.
RLM *likes* the horrible Star Trek remake, which to me automatically disqualifies him as a source of valuable opinions on movies.
Also, that last post reminded me of
Spoiler:
Manchu wrote:[I enjoyed the first Force Unleashed enough to play through it twice. It had the right ambience, IMO, if not anything particularly cool regarding gameplay. For someone looking for "authentic" Star Wars, that was enough for me. I don't know anything about FUII (lol, just not realized the game can be abbreviated "FU") except that Kanluwen told me it was way too short.
I didn't play it myself - the graphics were impressive, but what put me off was how the badassery of the player character was constantly being hyped in just about every preview, review and ad I've seen. You get to pull the most ridiculous stunts, you get to kick Vader's ass, you get to found the Rebellion, etc pp. That's just not what I want from a Star Wars game. I want to be a part of the setting, not dominate it at every corner. The retcon with the Rebel Alliance crest actually being the family emblem of the TFU guy just makes me want to vomit. Onto the head of whatever writer signed that off. Unless he'd actually like that.
Really, how hard can it be to make a cool game that does not try to make you the center of the universe and gak all over what came before? Let's hope 1313 aims at a different angle - at least you're not some uberhuge Force user in there. I think.
Manchu wrote:An elegant sport for a more civilized age.
I was born in '71 and Episodes 4-6 are the be all end all of Star Wars for me. End stop.
The rest since then for me is some sort of insidious marketing experiment gone horribly wrong that continues to fester and mutate like some horrible STD...
I will always have fond childhood memories of the original trilogy and the time I spent immersing myself in that universe, but present day the magic is gone for me and I'm not all that exited about anything new at this point...
Hmm... I remain a fan of the original trilogy and enjoy playing Star Wars Battlefronts. Episodes I-III had the odd moment, but for the most part, they were utter
This was kind of a good thing, because I was getting Star Wars obsessed at the time. I didn't remain obsessed for very long.
Lynata wrote:I want to be a part of the setting, not dominate it at every corner.
Good point. Somehow, the Apprentice never came off as that powerful. Pulling the Star Destoyer down, for example, didn't seem like the huge deal they made it out to be in the trailer.
Matty as always is relatively into it, but totally shakes his head at the fanboism. I just think its decent Sci-fi so I enjoy it, but thats about as far as it goes.
I loved the first three I saw as a youngster, I hated the last few. But I am "into" Starwars after being so impressed with it for so long.
For example, I have read about 6 of the "new" novels, I bought both the clone wars DVDs by Genndy Tartakovsky when they first came out, and I loved Dark Forces and such on the PC back in the day.. but thats about it from me.
No costumes, conventions, long chats about lore or T-shirts or anything.
Although.. to my eternal shame I did dress as a Stormtrooper for my mates stag do...
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've just noticed Darth was a fething midget.. why the hell did the smallest fether in the party get Darth!?
I don't think there's been a truly good SW film since TESB. And yes, I even felt that way when I was 13 walking out of ROTJ. That one fell flat for me even as a 13-year-old, as did the prequels.
I thought the X-Wing/TIE fighter/X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter games were fun. And I thought the Thrawn novels were decent brain candy. But that's really the last SW fiction I've read.
Clone Wars seems like it's decently done, but I've maybe seen an episode or two. So I guess this all means I'm really not much of a fan, despite being into it in a major way as a young child.
I loved Rogue Squadron for the 64. I got a gold on every mission after about, 4 years of on-off play? Damn that was rewarding. I think I still have it in a box somewhere.
Bromsy wrote:There is one good side to the prequels. Finding people who defend them, sitting them down, and forcing them to watch the Red Letter Media reviews, which spell out in exacting detail how bad the movies are. Then asking them to repeat their arguments.
"badness" is objective. Sure you can force someone to watch those videos, but that doesn't mean that they stop liking the films, it just means that you're being a dick and trying to ruin their fun.
No. That doesn't make me a dick, it makes me a crusader for good and justice. Letting people be stupid and wrong is not the right path. I choose the difficult road of trying to help people rather than let them wallow in ignorance and sin.
The very fact that you seem to think that because someone likes something that you don't, they're ignorant, is worrying.
I'll say it again. Liking stuff is objective. you can say that X plot point doesn't make sense, or Y character had an annoying voice until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't mean that someone can't enjoy the films despite those.
[edit: my grammar is awful at the moment for some reason]
Lynata wrote:I'm a bit cautious after the whole "The Force Unleashed" gak
I enjoyed the first Force Unleashed enough to play through it twice. It had the right ambience, IMO, if not anything particularly cool regarding gameplay. For someone looking for "authentic" Star Wars, that was enough for me. I don't know anything about FUII (lol, just not realized the game can be abbreviated "FU") except that Kanluwen told me it was way too short.
Indeed it was way, way too short. The Endor DLC was fun, as it continued the "Alternate Timeline" idea.
But that's a different story entirely.
How do I feel about Star Wars?
It's a long story. I've read the books, I've played the games, I've seen the cartoons(including Droids and Ewoks, mind you!), and I've enjoyed the old Decipher card game. One of my first gaming experiences was participating in a card tournament at age 11 or 12, getting absolutely crushed and still coming out of it with the unanimous "best sportsman" award and a special edition card(Gold Leader's Y-Wing from "A New Hope" with the pilot's stats baked in) in foil, and numbered 1/1000. But that's not what Star Wars is for me
For me, Star Wars is something that has been a part of my life since I was 4 and my (now long deceased) grandfather decided it was okay for me to watch it while I was visiting him and my grandmother in Candor, New York. He didn't want to go to a party that my parents and grandmother were going to--he had something far more important to spend time with.
Me.
So he decided we'd find something to watch on TV, and a local affiliate was showing the Star Wars movies. His idea was "Well, there's not really any swearing, there's not too much violence, and his father absolutely loved these movies...so I'll share that with him." So at 12pm, we started watching.
And we kept watching until way past my bedtime...
But after watching "A New Hope", I was pretty much sucked into this universe from the start. I loved space, I loved robots and wizards and dinosaurs and monsters, and I loved this fantastic world where all of those things were there! I had to see the other movies, and there was no stopping it. We watched "The Empire Strikes Back", and then went to watch "Return of the Jedi" before I got absolutely unnerved by the Sarlacc Pit and Jabba the Hut in "Return". But that didn't put me off of the universe. Oh no...I had to keep watching. I had to see what happened. And that moment where Vader throws Palpatine will always make me remember my grandfather and the words he said.
"Do you know what I think the person who made this movie wanted you to take from this, Nicholas? He wanted you to take an important lesson from it: No matter how far down you've fallen...you can come back. While all your triumphs can be taken away from you and you can be remembered for your tragedies, your losses and your failures are not irreparable. You just have to realize that they were yours and own up to them. You have to work to make things right. There is always a path back, but it might not be the easiest path."
The next day my grandfather took me to a flea market with him, as he was going to find parts for his CB radio. We were walking around, and lo and behold...we found a gentleman who used to own a toy shop selling some Star Wars figures...still on card or in their boxes. A Wampa, a Tauntaun, Luke and Han in their Hoth gear, a Scout Biker, and --this is going to make people rage so freaking hard at me for this--a Boba Fett who actually had the firing backpack missile.
Right then and there--I had to have these. They were too cool, and it just had to be mine. My grandfather couldn't say no--especially not to the price the guy wanted(freaking $40 for all of that). $40 for something for his only grandchild at the time? He wouldn't have even dreamed of saying no, even if he couldn't have afforded it.
But of course with him, there was a catch...he got to be the Wampa when we played Star Wars when we got home!
The next week and a half at Grandpa's was spent playing Star Wars with him, and it's something I always will cherish.
It was one of the last times I would ever get to spend with him, just him and I. That same year my first brother was born and my cousin was born as well. The year after that, he passed away of particularly aggressive lung cancer. But those figures stayed with me until my stupid brothers broke them and they got trashed by my mom (who only saw broken toys, not treasured memories).
Star Wars has changed over the years. No matter what though, I always remember that wide eyed feeling I had watching the entire trilogy with my grandfather shortly after Christmas of 1990 and the New Year's Eve marathon that he let me watch.
That sense of wonder, and the "NO WAY" of Vader being Luke's father.
That sense of awe when Vader decided "Enough" and sacrificed himself.
No matter what has changed through the technology or the prequels, I can only thank George Lucas for those memories.
Star Wars, for me, isn't a movie.
It's a memory and a lesson.
mattyrm wrote: Oh yeah that last animated movie as well....
fething awful.
As I said, the Clone Wars by GT was spot on though, I was genuinely impressed with it.
The Clone Wars movie was never really meant to be a movie, which is part of why it was so bad. It's actually the first two episodes of the first season of the Clone Wars TV series. They mashed em together and then called it a movie.
Terrible, terrible decision. That's also back when Ahsoka is still using "Ar-Tooey" and "Skyguy", which is beyond obnoxious. Thankfully it has gotten much, much better.
Kan, we may not get along all that well much of the time, but what you just wrote ... wow, just wow.
Have an exaltation.
streamdragon wrote:"Skyguy", which is beyond obnoxious.
She still does it later on, it's just gotten a lot more rare. Y'know, like a proper nickname, something you just don't use every single time, especially in front of other people.
When you hear her calling him "Skyguy", or him calling her "Snips", you know they're just teasing each other.
But yeah, that movie really cannot compare to the later episodes. Especially stuff like the Ryloth or the Malevolence Trilogies.
Howard A Treesong wrote:Got to admit, recently I introduced a friend to the Star Wars trilogy, did the original three and told her to skip the prequels.
I think the prequels were always going to struggle to live up to expectations, but they fell quite a bit short.
,
Dah there's a difference between having to work hard to compare to a beloved original IP and falling straight on one's face.
I'm with the OP. the original movies have an amazingly inspired,,organic quality to them which, IMO, made them such a tremendous success.
Whatever chemistry between the director, actors and numerous creative people that existed during those times is now gone, and everything that has come after is a pathetic mechanical attempt to cash in on that chemical reaction which has ended.
I especially hate all the cartoons and video games that have arisen. The art style in particular. It's very Disney looking, and inorganic.
Star Wars always had that greasy, dirty, asymmetric look to it, with improvised props and extreme levels of detail. Now it just looks lame and is a sad parody of itself.
I'm not getting the love for Dark Empire unless its a nostalgia thing. I thought it was pretty cool when I was 11-12 as well. I've looked around a bit at reviews and discussions on various Star Wars forums and there is a lot of dislike for it, especially for the art. Most of the like for Dark Empire and most of the EU for that matter is despite its horrendous flaws and repetitive stories.
Seriously though, 3 WMDs (World Devestators, Galaxy Gun, Eclipse /w Death Star Superlaser) is OOT in one story alone, adding in Luke turning to the Dark Side for a piss poor reason, three Jedi that miraculously survived Order 66 (including an Ent and Pacman), Palpatine having dozens of clones and acting like a moron for most of the series and you end up with a sorry story.
The Thrawn Trilogy was good because it introduced new elements and focused on something other than Jedi and Sith for a bit. Thrawn was nothing like any character seen in the OT, Karrde was a bit like Solo and Calrissian, but much more pragmatic and calculating, C'baoth was an interesting way to introduce a Jedi survivor, and Jade hadn't become OOT yet.
Cave_Dweller wrote:I'm with the OP. the original movies have an amazingly inspired,,organic quality to them which, IMO, made them such a tremendous success.
Whatever chemistry between the director, actors and numerous creative people that existed during those times is now gone, and everything that has come after is a pathetic mechanical attempt to cash in on that chemical reaction which has ended.
I especially hate all the cartoons and video games that have arisen. The art style in particular. It's very Disney looking, and inorganic.
Star Wars always had that greasy, dirty, asymmetric look to it, with improvised props and extreme levels of detail. Now it just looks lame and is a sad parody of itself.
Are you seriously saying that every cartoon and video game of Star Wars since the original trilogy all have exactly the same art style?
Seriously?
And if you think that all these different media that supposedly all have the same art style are "Disney looking", then I'd propose that you've not actually watched anything from Disney (either that or you've not seen anything star wars based, and since this is a star wars thread I'd really hope that that isn't true) because the animation styles are vastly different.
Compare the animation styles in UP and The Clone Wars. The characters in UP are shorter, more unrealistic, and more stylised.
For those wondering about using LEGO figures for a wargame, there is this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brikwars I don't know how good it is but, there it is.
Amaya wrote:I'm not getting the love for Dark Empire unless its a nostalgia thing.
It's a couple of things:
The artwork was both gritty and mystical. As I mentioned, the combination of severe inking and watercoloring over those blocky lines invokes a familiarity with the "utilitarian future" look of the OT on the one hand and a sense of fresh mystery and a completely new psychedelic atmosphere on the other. It was pitch perfect for the tenor of a story about the persistence of evil and the deeper nature of the force. Speaking of which, the idea that the man who forged the Empire would just be thrown down a ventilation duct by his right hand man while his crack troops were massacred by teddy bears never set well with me and many other fans. The revelation in Dark Empire that the Emperor had constructed the entire scenario as a purge made a lot of sense.
IMO, a sense of moral ambivalence came along with the prosperity of the 1990s. I don't mean that either phenomenon was at its apogee in 1991 but rather these were were emergent attitudes that people were not yet fully aware of even as they experienced them. The black and white moral universe of the OT was not as relevant. And our IRL "victory" over Communism did not yield the uncomplicated world many had expected. Instead, the world appeared less coherent. In Dark Empire, this zeitgeist was reflected in the Imperial infighting and how the Alliance was actually still a Rebellion. Even in this fictional universe, history would be more complicated than blowing up a single space station. And the redemption of Darth Vader had not totally clarified things, either. The idea of the Emperor surviving Endor and Luke kneeling before him was and is an incredibly chilling postscript to the American hopes and expectations portrayed in the OT.
In many ways, I believe Dark Empire reflected the anxieties of the times. Luke's turn spoke to the experience of youthful idealism giving way to a hunger that was not merely a matter of practicality but also of despair and even greed. The World Devastator was a prescient image of consumerism as the destroyer of societies. The proliferation of super weapons made sense in a time when the rapidly decreasing cost of technology might make SDI plausible sooner rather than later. More than anything, Dark Empire visually depicted the Star Wars universe as cracked, splintered, and littered with broken weapons -- the scrap heap graveyard of a long and costly war. That spoke to me as a reader in the immediate wake of the Cold War. It made me realize how silly it was to expect that everything would be better after RotJ or, for that matter, the exuberance surrounding the fall of the Berlin Wall.
Amaya wrote:The Thrawn Trilogy was good because it introduced new elements and focused on something other than Jedi and Sith for a bit.
Looking back, the biggest contribution Zahn made to Star Wars was the rehabilitation of the Empire. Imagine a historical novel about a good, noble, and wise Nazi general who was also somehow a Jew. That's Thrawn with regard to the Star Wars franchise. A lot of Star Wars fans, including myself, somehow adored the bad guys of the OT. Zahn gave us a moral justification for our guilty love of the baddies by making one of the most capable of them a good guy. He even wears a white uniform! And he has a Watson-like sidekick to constantly reinforce the audience awe of his brilliance and nobility.
streamdragon wrote:Wait... you dont like the Clone Wars series but you do like a series of novels widely regarded as the worst EU crap available?
I don't see it. Sorry your opinion sucks. A quick google search showed me that it isn't widely regarded as the worst EU books and that you are full of gak. Obviously you have different tastes. For instance you imply that the clone wars is better, therefore your opinion is invalid.
Spoiler:
Did you actually watch any of The Clone Wars? I mean, it's all well and good saying that it's awful and ruined your opinion of star wars and raped a kitten, but can you actually say what you actually found wrong with it? Was it the characters? The storylines? The tone?
I mean, if you've seen it and don't like it then fine, but the vast majority of people who've told me that they don't like The Clone Wars have formed the opinion entirely from either the trailer or from hearsay, and very rarely actually watched the program.
Well it is not something I think about much. I would have to dig deep to remember what it was that I didn't like. Off the top of my head, I do remember hating with a passion what they did with the Mandalorians, namely those ones called the New Mandalorians. There was something about them being peaceful yet they was able to remove the other mandalorians from the planet.
I do recall the Mando episodes being a major issue for people, especially fans of the Travis clone/mando stuff. I didn't have an issue with them, myself, other than being a bit bland.
Not to mention Travis is a hack... (andthenbobafetttakesthestuffandnowislikeimmortaland*sploosh*)
streamdragon wrote:I do recall the Mando episodes being a major issue for people, especially fans of the Travis clone/mando stuff. I didn't have an issue with them, myself, other than being a bit bland.
Not to mention Travis is a hack... (andthenbobafetttakesthestuffandnowislikeimmortaland*sploosh*)
Ugh... just ugh...
Maybe I just watched the really bad episodes?
The thing about the New Mandalorians is that they just didn't sit right with me. Here you have the Mandalorians on a planet who are very warlike and have waged war on the entire galaxy. They are kicked off of their planet by New Mandalorians who are pacifists. How exactly does that work? Then these supposed pacifists get the Jedi to help them get rid of other warlike Mandalorians. That seems to go against the Jedi Code as well as being a pacifist. We don't believe in fighting but we sure as hell will get keepers of the peace to do the fighting for us.
Can you recommend any good episodes or series of episodes?
Also that Black Lightsaber was cool, but it seemed odd that a Mandalorian used it. Was he trained in the Jedi arts? I always remember lightsabers being extremely hard for a non jedi/sith/force user to use. For one Obi-wan should have beat the guy pretty bad just by using the force power of lightsaber combat, something a non force using Mandalorian would have a hard time parrying against.
I know some will despair upon reading this but I liked the latest 3 films. I don't see them as Star Wars prequels just different films based in the same setting.
I also would like to see the Force Unleashed games made into films, but that is just me.
streamdragon wrote:I do recall the Mando episodes being a major issue for people, especially fans of the Travis clone/mando stuff. I didn't have an issue with them, myself, other than being a bit bland.
Not to mention Travis is a hack... (andthenbobafetttakesthestuffandnowislikeimmortaland*sploosh*)
Ugh... just ugh...
Maybe I just watched the really bad episodes?
The thing about the New Mandalorians is that they just didn't sit right with me. Here you have the Mandalorians on a planet who are very warlike and have waged war on the entire galaxy. They are kicked off of their planet by New Mandalorians who are pacifists. How exactly does that work? Then these supposed pacifists get the Jedi to help them get rid of other warlike Mandalorians. That seems to go against the Jedi Code as well as being a pacifist. We don't believe in fighting but we sure as hell will get keepers of the peace to do the fighting for us.
Can you recommend any good episodes or series of episodes?
Also that Black Lightsaber was cool, but it seemed odd that a Mandalorian used it. Was he trained in the Jedi arts? I always remember lightsabers being extremely hard for a non jedi/sith/force user to use. For one Obi-wan should have beat the guy pretty bad just by using the force power of lightsaber combat, something a non force using Mandalorian would have a hard time parrying against.
Someone has already mentioned the Malevolence series of episodes, which I'll agree with, another set that I quite like is the three that begin with "Death Trap" which has some quite cool appearances from characters that were first introduced in the original trilogy.
streamdragon wrote:I do recall the Mando episodes being a major issue for people, especially fans of the Travis clone/mando stuff. I didn't have an issue with them, myself, other than being a bit bland.
Not to mention Travis is a hack... (andthenbobafetttakesthestuffandnowislikeimmortaland*sploosh*)
Ugh... just ugh...
Maybe I just watched the really bad episodes?
The thing about the New Mandalorians is that they just didn't sit right with me. Here you have the Mandalorians on a planet who are very warlike and have waged war on the entire galaxy. They are kicked off of their planet by New Mandalorians who are pacifists. How exactly does that work? Then these supposed pacifists get the Jedi to help them get rid of other warlike Mandalorians. That seems to go against the Jedi Code as well as being a pacifist. We don't believe in fighting but we sure as hell will get keepers of the peace to do the fighting for us.
Just to play Devil's Advocate here...
The ones who were "kicked off" were not Mandalorians, per the Mandalorians' own views of their culture.
They were what was called "The Death Watch".
The Death Watch was, for all intents and purposes, a subsect of the Mandalorian culture which emphasized a "Mandalorians first and only" mindset. They believed it was their right to run the galaxy, and had no real rules outside of that idea.
streamdragon wrote:I do recall the Mando episodes being a major issue for people, especially fans of the Travis clone/mando stuff. I didn't have an issue with them, myself, other than being a bit bland.
Not to mention Travis is a hack... (andthenbobafetttakesthestuffandnowislikeimmortaland*sploosh*)
Ugh... just ugh...
Maybe I just watched the really bad episodes?
The thing about the New Mandalorians is that they just didn't sit right with me. Here you have the Mandalorians on a planet who are very warlike and have waged war on the entire galaxy. They are kicked off of their planet by New Mandalorians who are pacifists. How exactly does that work? Then these supposed pacifists get the Jedi to help them get rid of other warlike Mandalorians. That seems to go against the Jedi Code as well as being a pacifist. We don't believe in fighting but we sure as hell will get keepers of the peace to do the fighting for us.
Just to play Devil's Advocate here...
The ones who were "kicked off" were not Mandalorians, per the Mandalorians' own views of their culture.
They were what was called "The Death Watch".
The Death Watch was, for all intents and purposes, a subsect of the Mandalorian culture which emphasized a "Mandalorians first and only" mindset. They believed it was their right to run the galaxy, and had no real rules outside of that idea.
Fair enough, but how do pacifists kick them off the planet? Did they ask them nicely to leave?
I remember Death Watch from back in the day. They always seemed like an extremist version of the ones like Jango. Still more Mandalorian than those New Mandalorians.
Manchu wrote:From a toddler to a teenager, I loved Star Wars. I watched the movies continuously, played as many of the video games (usually on friends' consoles or computers) as I could, hunted for the original toys at flea markets, read all the old novels (like, Splinter of the Mind's Eye old), ate up Tim Zahn's books and most of what followed that, etc, etc, etc. An aunt of mine bought me the Star Wars edition of trivial pursuit and no one would play with me after the first game -- "how do you freaking know how many Storm Troopers got shot in that scene???"
And then Phantom Menace came out. I remember being in shock. "It was good ... right, guys? Guys?" And then Attack of the Clones ... it was just indefensible. Luckily, Knights of the Old Republic and Tartakovsky's Clone Wars restored some of my wide-eyed faith in the franchise. And Revenge of the Sith was ... if I say better than the first two prequels combined, I guess that isn't saying much. But even RotS being ... okay compared to JarJar and "your skin is softer than sand, Padme" wasn't enough.
By the time I realized the ship was sinking for me, I was up to my neck. I think the precise moment I realized it was halfway through the first season of the CGI Clone Wars. It just sort of popped into my head that I hadn't really been interested in the show from the start. I was just watching out of obligation and an unconscious hope that Star Wars might be good again. Nowadays, I see Star Wars stuff and it's just like "oh, George must want to put in a new pool on the ranch." I know it's not all crap and I know that other people are still really into it.
But I feel like Stan in that episode of South Park where he looks around and sees gak everywhere. I see a Darth Vader t-shirt and it looks like someone smeared gak on cotton. I see Star Wars Lego sets and it just looks like a pile of gak sprinkled what must have been very painful sharp-corned plastic bricks. Don't even get me started on the latest MMO. They say free to pay and all I can think of is why did anyway pay to rub this gak in their eyes in the first place.
Enter FFG. FFG is a company that doesn't always knock it out of the park but they do their dammedest from release to release. And now they have the Star Wars license. For the first time in years, Star Wars merchandise is looking a little appealing to me. When I see their new X-Wing miniatures, I'm not just seeing a turd impaled on a clear toothpick which is turn glued to a cheap plastic square. It's looking like a badass fighter plane from the future which is somehow also the past ... like in the old days. Before the dark times. Before the Empire.
But this little light of mine is fragile. It's like a match in a hurricane. I gotta be careful with this one. And I hope FFG is trying to be careful. I wonder if they feel the pressure of all the schlock Star Wars has gone through as it's been wrung for every red cent over the last decade or so especially. And I wonder what the rest of you guys think. Are you a diehard fan who never lost faith? Do you not remember a time before the prequels? What do you think about this monumental property and all the ups and downs its been through?
I feel very similar but where i am now Star Wars is something people laugh at :(
As to "only force trained" being able to use lightsabres.
They are a sword. ANY shmoe can use it.
ONLY someone who has trained for years will be able to use it like a jedi/sith.
Same for building one. Anyone with the technical skills and access to the parts should be able to do it (it's getting the crystals that's the hard bit).
It's just that jedi/sith don't use tools to do the putting-together-of-them, but they manipulate the bits with "majik".
streamdragon wrote:I do recall the Mando episodes being a major issue for people, especially fans of the Travis clone/mando stuff. I didn't have an issue with them, myself, other than being a bit bland.
Not to mention Travis is a hack... (andthenbobafetttakesthestuffandnowislikeimmortaland*sploosh*)
Ugh... just ugh...
Maybe I just watched the really bad episodes?
The thing about the New Mandalorians is that they just didn't sit right with me. Here you have the Mandalorians on a planet who are very warlike and have waged war on the entire galaxy. They are kicked off of their planet by New Mandalorians who are pacifists. How exactly does that work? Then these supposed pacifists get the Jedi to help them get rid of other warlike Mandalorians. That seems to go against the Jedi Code as well as being a pacifist. We don't believe in fighting but we sure as hell will get keepers of the peace to do the fighting for us.
Just to play Devil's Advocate here...
The ones who were "kicked off" were not Mandalorians, per the Mandalorians' own views of their culture.
They were what was called "The Death Watch".
The Death Watch was, for all intents and purposes, a subsect of the Mandalorian culture which emphasized a "Mandalorians first and only" mindset. They believed it was their right to run the galaxy, and had no real rules outside of that idea.
Fair enough, but how do pacifists kick them off the planet? Did they ask them nicely to leave?
I remember Death Watch from back in the day. They always seemed like an extremist version of the ones like Jango. Still more Mandalorian than those New Mandalorians.
Lord Scythican wrote:
Maybe I just watched the really bad episodes?
The thing about the New Mandalorians is that they just didn't sit right with me. Here you have the Mandalorians on a planet who are very warlike and have waged war on the entire galaxy. They are kicked off of their planet by New Mandalorians who are pacifists. How exactly does that work? Then these supposed pacifists get the Jedi to help them get rid of other warlike Mandalorians. That seems to go against the Jedi Code as well as being a pacifist. We don't believe in fighting but we sure as hell will get keepers of the peace to do the fighting for us.
Can you recommend any good episodes or series of episodes?
Also that Black Lightsaber was cool, but it seemed odd that a Mandalorian used it. Was he trained in the Jedi arts? I always remember lightsabers being extremely hard for a non jedi/sith/force user to use. For one Obi-wan should have beat the guy pretty bad just by using the force power of lightsaber combat, something a non force using Mandalorian would have a hard time parrying against.
Well, the Mandalorians aren't so much pacifists, as they wanted to stay out the war between the republic and the confederates. The Deathwatch wanted Manadalore to take some major place in the galactic world that the ruling party just didn't want; they became a terrorist group essentially. Attacking their own people to get the ruling group out, which is why the Jedi were willing to step in. I believe the dude with the black sabre mentions taking it off a dead jedi. Anyone can use a lightsaber, it's just a special sort of sword after all. Grievous uses 4 and he's not even force sensitive.
One fantastic series of episodes doesn't actually follow the Jedi. "Rookies", "Clone Cadets", and "Arc Troopers (I think)" follow a group of Clones and are just amazingly well done.
Bromsy wrote:There is one good side to the prequels. Finding people who defend them, sitting them down, and forcing them to watch the Red Letter Media reviews, which spell out in exacting detail how bad the movies are. Then asking them to repeat their arguments.
"badness" is objective. Sure you can force someone to watch those videos, but that doesn't mean that they stop liking the films, it just means that you're being a dick and trying to ruin their fun.
No. That doesn't make me a dick, it makes me a crusader for good and justice. Letting people be stupid and wrong is not the right path. I choose the difficult road of trying to help people rather than let them wallow in ignorance and sin.
RLM *likes* the horrible Star Trek remake, which to me automatically disqualifies him as a source of valuable opinions on movies.
Goliath wrote:
The very fact that you seem to think that because someone likes something that you don't, they're ignorant, is worrying.
I'll say it again. Liking stuff is objective. you can say that X plot point doesn't make sense, or Y character had an annoying voice until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't mean that someone can't enjoy the films despite those.
[edit: my grammar is awful at the moment for some reason]
No. A) Saying the Star Trek remake isn't horrible in no way invalidates the criticisms of the prequels, and B) Goliath, I think you mean liking things is *SUBJECTIVE* not objective. Because the prequels are OBJECTIVELY bad movies. The Phantom Menace for example had four different endings with wildly different emotional tones all happening at the same time. There is no defending that except from a nonsensical fanboy apologist position. I'm sorry, because I wish they would have made good films. They did not.
Goliath wrote:
The very fact that you seem to think that because someone likes something that you don't, they're ignorant, is worrying.
I'll say it again. Liking stuff is objective. you can say that X plot point doesn't make sense, or Y character had an annoying voice until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't mean that someone can't enjoy the films despite those.
[edit: my grammar is awful at the moment for some reason]
No. A) Saying the Star Trek remake isn't horrible in no way invalidates the criticisms of the prequels, and B) Goliath, I think you mean liking things is *SUBJECTIVE* not objective. Because the prequels are OBJECTIVELY bad movies. The Phantom Menace for example had four different endings with wildly different emotional tones all happening at the same time. There is no defending that except from a nonsensical fanboy apologist position. I'm sorry, because I wish they would have made good films. They did not.
Yeah, that was my bad, I did mean subjective not objective. How does liking them mean that I'm assuming a nonsensical fanboy apologist position? I like the universe in which the stories are set, and the overall narrative and history of that universe. The tone of the endings or the voice of one of the characters has no bearing on the overall story within the film, which is what I enjoyed about them. Besides, can you honestly say that every single part of every prequel sucked? All of them had redeeming features, be it the space battle at the start of revenge of the sith, or the pod race in The Phantom Menace (in my opinion). I can forgive the failings of certain parts of the films because of how much I enjoyed other parts, and the fact that they expanded upon the history of one of my favourite universes.
streamdragon wrote:
I believe the dude with the black sabre mentions taking it off a dead jedi. Anyone can use a lightsaber, it's just a special sort of sword after all. Grievous uses 4 and he's not even force sensitive.
Well I am an old WEG buff, which was filled with writers that established the EU. That explanation didn't work back in the day, so it must have changed. Lightsabers were very difficult to use for non-forcewielders. It had something to do with the weight. From wookiepeida:
Due to the weightlessness of plasma and the strong gyroscopic effect generated by it, lightsabers required a great deal of strength and dexterity to wield, and it was extremely difficult—and dangerous—for the untrained to attempt using. However, in the hands of an expert of the Force, the lightsaber was a weapon to be greatly respected and feared.
Basically that explanation above was used but it went into greater detail. Even if you had great strength and dexterity and training to use it, you could never become a master at wielding it like the Jedi. The coordination was greatly enhanced by their force training. A normal person even with training couldn't do all those fancy moves without chopping their limbs off. So unless the guy with the black saber had force skills he shouldn't be able to go toe to toe with a Jedi Master in a lightsaber duel. That is why Qui-gon Jinn referred to Darth Maul in the Episode one as being well trained in the Jedi Arts. Maul didn't use any force skills in the battle, (well maybe the jump off the speeder). Qui-gon knew his abilities because of how he handled the saber.
Grevious on the other hand didn't use techniques. He used a more precise technical form that was enhanced by his cybernetics. Think of it more like a robot using precision laser welding. He had organics, but his lightsaber abilities were demonstrated by mechanical servos that had the speed to attack someone. If you notice he no finese and his sabers were easily dispatched by Obi-Wan.
streamdragon wrote:
Pacifist doesn't mean you are unable to fight.
It means you choose not to.
Well in my defense I never said they were unable to fight. If someone chooses not to fight they will have a pretty hard time keeping someone from kicking their face in, which is why I said did they ask them nicely to leave. The backstory never really say how they got them off the planet, which is a cop out.
"Each of these independent game lines stands alone as a unique gaming experience while fully integrating with the others to form a single unified system."
Ugh. I rejoiced at these news until I read that last line. I think their 40kRPGs "burned me" in regards to their supposed intercompatibility. Still, willing to get positively surprised.
What system do they use? Waiting on a review by Manchu.
I was a huge Star Wars CCG player in college and a few years out of college. I was a play-tester for Decipher Games and went to most of the major tournaments in Texas and Louisiana.
I loved the franchise. I disliked the prequels, but didn't hate them. "Han shot first" t-shirts still make me laugh. I agree with that sentiment, but it's been over-stated, I think. Just let it go, man. She's not your girlfriend anymore...
My friends picked up the new X-Wing game at GenCon and they really enjoy it. However, it just doesn't appeal to me.
FFG are also releasing the Star Wars RPG early next year. The Beta rules are out now. I got a free copy at GenCon for attending their In-Flight Report. However, I doubt my group will play it, nor will I be upset if they don't.
Anyway, back to your original question: "How do you feel about Star Wars?"
It's given me hundreds of hours worth of entertainment via Star Wars CCG, watching the movies, and some RPG experience back in 1999-2000. Only the Warhammer 40k HHHobby has taken more of my hobby time over the years. I feel I've outgrown a lot of the appeal that Star Wars used to have for me, but like an old sweet-heart, the memories are fond.
Edit: Holy gak! I totally forgot about playing Star Wars Galaxies, the Online MMO that Sony Online Entertainment gak all over. We played that for years and absolutely loved it before the "New Experience" bs went down and they treated us like that one Uncle the family doesn't talk about.
On a semi related side note, found these a while back and have been trying to think of a way of sharing them here on Dakka, this seems a likely thread for such an act.
Basically a group of re-imagined designs of the main characters from the original films, if they where at a school in the 80's.
honestly, going back and watching the whole thing again I'd say the special effects were what captivated me as a child when I saw the OG 3, I hated the last ones which is why I had to go back and watch the first ones again.
just a lame series IMO, terrible acting, OK story, and some special effects
I was wondering if one of you might be able to help me with one of the books. I read it years ago and haven't been able to find it since-can't remember the title.
The plot of the story was based around a new Jedi homeworld set up by Luke and attacked by new generation of Sith. There was a Jedi tree and a crystal snake from what I remember. The only book (Star Wars) I have read was this one and I just can't find it.
(sorry if this is hijacking the thread but thought it better to place here.)
The Jedi homeworld probably refers to Luke's new academy on Yavin. There's also Ossus, but the Legacy era isn't that old so I suppose that one's right out.
Azza007 wrote: I was wondering if one of you might be able to help me with one of the books. I read it years ago and haven't been able to find it since-can't remember the title.
The plot of the story was based around a new Jedi homeworld set up by Luke and attacked by new generation of Sith. There was a Jedi tree and a crystal snake from what I remember. The only book (Star Wars) I have read was this one and I just can't find it.
(sorry if this is hijacking the thread but thought it better to place here.)
That sounds like Dark Empire. I'm pretty sure it wasn't the Jedi homeworld, just a major Jedi Temple and Library. IIRC, it played a major role during Exar Kun's rise to power.
It's like Robert DeNiro for me, the new stuff he does is so bad that it tarnishes the greatness from the past. Darth Vader screaming "Noooooo" cut his balls off, before all his epicness in 4,5 and 6. Such a fail.
I used to be really, really into Star Wars, or at least the movies, in elementary and middle school, well before the prequel trilogy. I owned a couple of the "Essential Guide" books, played the hell out of X-Wing and TIE Fighter, got some kind of weird "Star Wars Adventures" game that was something like a PnP RPG you subscribed to for like fifteen months and every month they'd send you a new module, and even read several of the novels, though the only ones I can definitely remember reading are The Truce at Bakura, The Courtship of Princess Leia and at least The Last Command if not the entire Thrawn Trilogy.
And then for some reason my interest in it dropped to a minimum. I played Star Wars Galaxies, I went to see the prequel trilogy (ugh), and that's about it. Played SWTOR for a little while, too.
I would say that it is a great franchise. It has a lot of fun games, and none of the movies are too bad.
My favorite movie is actually the phantom menace, and I thought Revenge of the Sith was the worst.
I wouldn't say I've grown out of it but Star Wars doesn't appeal to me as much as it used to. Part of it has to do with the prequels but the other thing that kind of bothers me is that at times the movies just feel like a long toy commercial. Granted the original films are fantastic and well scripted toy commercials they do have that commercial vibe to them, at least in my view. I'll say this much though, I still enjoy the originals and they are still classics in my mind but yeah they just don't appeal to me as much as they used to =P.
Shredsmore wrote: I would say that it is a great franchise. It has a lot of fun games, and none of the movies are too bad.
My favorite movie is actually the phantom menace, and I thought Revenge of the Sith was the worst.
However, for me Star Wars has always been pick and chose what I like.
I HATE the Phantom Men. and I thought the other 2 movies were OKAY.
In the end though, I am very picky what I consider Canon and not. THe Prequels are not in my little universe. I enjoy the original idea of the Republic VS the Clones for the Clone Wars.
Ive read a decent amount of books and ALL the ones Ive read I enjoyed but again im picky on what I read. I LOVE the Thrawn Trilogy and the X-Wing series and am completely DISGUSTED with Dark Empire and Legacy (both book and comic) I think the Yuz. Vong story is interesting and has some good moments (I love the idea of the New Republic and Imperial Remnants uniting and Palleon taking command.) but it has too many things that feel off to me and the series is simply TOO LONG for me to start.
I enjoyed the Clone Wars cartoon shorts, dislike the new stuff.
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It's given me hundreds of hours worth of entertainment via Star Wars CCG, watching the movies, and some RPG experience back in 1999-2000. Only the Warhammer 40k HHHobby has taken more of my hobby time over the years. I feel I've outgrown a lot of the appeal that Star Wars used to have for me, but like an old sweet-heart, the memories are fond.
This EXACTLY.
However I have NO RPG experience (what a shame, I only recently got in RP when my friend showed me D&D 3 years ago and Ive only done it with him and his friends sense than.)
and 40k replaced Star Wars when I found out about 40k but that was shortly after Dark Crusade came out (near the end of 4th Edition) but Star Wars still has more time spent in it.
I like Star Wars but I'm not a superfan so I don't have that deep emotional connection to it. Just glad you mentioned Tartovsky's Clone Wars Manchu. I love that 'toon.
Well, at least The Phantom Menace had the best lightsaber duel in the series instead of the "we're obviously not trying to kill the other guy" crap of AoTC and RoTS.
Amaya wrote: Well, at least The Phantom Menace had the best lightsaber duel in the series instead of the "we're obviously not trying to kill the other guy" crap of AoTC and RoTS.
And the original trilogy too I may add. Agree on Phantom Menance having best light saber fight though.
Amaya wrote: Well, at least The Phantom Menace had the best lightsaber duel in the series instead of the "we're obviously not trying to kill the other guy" crap of AoTC and RoTS.
Interspersed with a idiotic character making prat falls ................. emphasis on the prat.
Amaya wrote: Well, at least The Phantom Menace had the best lightsaber duel in the series instead of the "we're obviously not trying to kill the other guy" crap of AoTC and RoTS.
Interspersed with a idiotic character making prat falls ................. emphasis on the prat.
Wait, when was it decided by everyone that there can't be any stupid characters in star wars?
It's all well and good committing genocide based on which side of the force you follow, but discrimination based on intelligence!? How dare you! Seriously though, what quite i think a lot of people need to realise is that The prequel trilogy wasn't designed for the guy who saw it when he was younger and has every single action figure, game and book. It's designed for the guy who saw it when he was younger, thought it was a good film and now has kids. who'll think "gee, I enjoyed those films when I was younger, I'll take my kids along to see these too" (my opinion -not based in fact or any interviews or stuff like that, if you have evidence that I'm wrong I'll gladly admit it)
Lucas tried the whole dramatic plot and grimdark story, but he needed to have comedic characters that younger kids can relate to, otherwise those kids just aren't going to go "mummy/daddy, I want to see it again". I'd assume that this is the same reason the prequels got darker and "more adult" as they went, so that the people who were kids when they saw TPM would now be slightly older, and want a slightly more exlosion based film, with less comedy.
There are good comedy characters in the original films - the "comedy" ones in the new films are not IMO funny or indeed characters - the Jar jar abomination is simply horrible and the "rubbish" war robots pathetic - yeah lets program our robots to be rubbish..........
Contrast the comedic characters in "Kids" animated films such as Ice Age, Megamind, Mosters Vs Aliens etc and then look at the pathetic attempts as noted above in the 3 prequals - suposedly family/adult films
Mr Morden wrote: There are good comedy characters in the original films - the "comedy" ones in the new films are not IMO funny or indeed characters - the Jar jar abomination is simply horrible and the "rubbish" war robots pathetic - yeah lets program our robots to be rubbish..........
Contrast the comedic characters in "Kids" animated films such as Ice Age, Megamind, Mosters Vs Aliens etc and then look at the pathetic attempts as noted above in the 3 prequals - suposedly family/adult films
Can I just ask how old you were when you first watched the Phantom Menace?
And making comparisons between star wars and the films you listed doesn't work, because they're intended to be largely based around the comedic aspects, sure there is a story line and characters and stuff like that, but they're almost equal to the comedy, not the main point, with star wars, the comedy isn't one of the main points of the film, I'd say that it's the main point of that specific character within the film, besides which, when I first saw The Phantom Menace, I found Jar Jar and the droids to be quite funny. (I was 5 when I first saw it by the way, and I watched It when I was properly able to analyse it when I was seven, and still found them funny then)
Amaya wrote: Well, at least The Phantom Menace had the best lightsaber duel in the series instead of the "we're obviously not trying to kill the other guy" crap of AoTC and RoTS.
And the original trilogy too I may add. Agree on Phantom Menance having best light saber fight though.
best technical one. I'd put the most cool duel as the one in ESB.
Azza007 wrote: The plot of the story was based around a new Jedi homeworld set up by Luke and attacked by new generation of Sith. There was a Jedi tree and a crystal snake from what I remember. The only book (Star Wars) I have read was this one and I just can't find it.
That sounds like Dark Empire.
Definitely not Dark Empire. I think you read "Heirs of the Force."
Also, I've been watching season 3 of Clone Wars and it's actually awesome.
There are no crystal snakes in Dark Empire or DE2 or End of Empire. By contrast, there is a huge tree outside of a Jedi (re-pruposed Sith) temple full of crystal snakes in Heirs to the Force.
I've been digging the clone wars animated stuff a lot, watched seasons 1-3 and sure, odd somewhat duff episode here and there, but far outweighed by the awesome ones.
Not seen much of 4 at all.... think the boxset must be out soon.
I haven't gotten a lego kit in ages, but the Star Wars kits have always been great!
