$700k - Alternate Sculpts for all season 3 teams $705k - Season 3 Keepers created. $709,996 - Prize Support for Dreadball tournaments worldwide. $720k - The Praetorian MVP sculpted. $730k - Blaine MVP sculpted Free with Jack and Striker pledges!
Completed Stretch Goals:
$40k - A robotic referee miniature added to all copies of the boxed game.
$50k - DreadBall Trophy added to all $30+ pledges.
$60k - 4 new alternate sculpts (2 Human, 2 Marauder) get sculpted and tooled in plastic and added to all copies of the boxed game.
$75k - 2 Forgefather minis added to the $100 (Jack) and $150 (Striker) pledge levels. Forgefather MVP added to all Forgefather Teams purchased as a part of the kickstarter (including the one in Striker and any Forgefather Teams bought as Extras or as part of the Guard pledge).
$90k - 2 Veer-myn minis added to the $100 and $150 pledge levels. Veer-myn MVP added to all Veer-myn Teams purchased as a part of the kickstarter (including the one in Striker and any Veer-myn Teams bought as Extras or as part of the Guard pledge).
$100k - Wildcard MVP added to Jack and Striker pledge levels. Kickstarter exclusive counters added to Striker, DreadBall event ticket added to all pledges.
$110k - 4 extra minis (2 Marauder and 2 Human players) added to Striker level.
$125k - John Doe MVP gets sculpted and added free to Jack and Striker level.
$140k - Sprue of Clear Plastic Hex bases gets created. 2 sprues added to to Striker level for free, 1 sprue added to Jack and Keeper level.
$155k - "Number 88" MVP gets created and added to Jack and Striker level for free.
$175k - Female Human team gets sculpted. 2 free female Humans added to Striker! level for free.
$182.5k - The Enforcer MVP gets sculpted and added free to all Jack and Striker pledges.
$190k - Buzzcut MVP gets sculpted and added free to all Jack and Striker pledges.
$200k - Digital copy of the DreadBall season 2 rules (contains rules for 4 new teams, new MVPs, coaches and cheerleaders) added to all pledge levels, Dreadball tickets signed by Ronnie.
$210k - Keepers for the first 4 teams get sculpted and added as optional extras to purchase at a 50% discount from RRP.
$220k - Wyn Greth'zki Kickstarter exclusive MVP, added to Striker level for free.
$235k - Judwan Team created, added to the extras section. 1 free Judwan mini added to Jack, 2 free Judwan minis added to Striker!
$242.5k - Mee Kel MVP, added to Jack and Striker level for free.
$250k - 8/9/12 free minis added to Keeper/Jack/Striker for free, along with a Decal sheet. Guard pledges get a free MVP.
$265k - Zz'or Team sculpted. 2 free minis for Striker, one free mini for Jack.
$270k - Season 1 coaches sculpted and added to the extras section for $15 for 4. (50% discount)
$275k - Zz'or MVP sculpted and added free to Jack and Striker level.
$282.5k - Nightshade MVP sculpted and added free to Jack and Striker level.
$305k - Anne-Marie Helder sculpted and added free to Jack and Striker level.
$325k - Robot Team sculpted. 1 free mini for Jack, 2 free minis for Striker.
$340k - DBR-7 Prototype, Robot MVP sculpted and added free to Jack and Striker level.
$355k - Coach Renton sculpted and added free to all Jack and Striker pledge levels.
$370k - Female Corp and Zz'or Keepers sculpted and added as optional extras to purchase at a 50% discount from RRP.
$385k - 3 new alternate sculpts added to the forgefather team, forgefather prone counter added free to all Striker pledges.
$400k - Yurik “Painmaster” Yurikson MVP sculpted and added free to all Jack and Striker pledges.
$425k - Asterian Team created, 2 free minis for Striker.
$440k - Mellisandra sculpted and added free to Striker.
$460k - 4 Cheerleaders sculpted and made available as extras for $15 (50% discount).
$470k - Rico Van Dien MVP added free to Striker.
$485k - 3 alternate Veermyn sculpts created, free prone counter added to Striker.
$500k - Free digital copy of the dreadball rules for all pledge levels. Free mech/ giant beast of your choice added to Striker.
$515k - The Nameless Team get sculpted. 2 free minis added to Striker.
$525k - Dreadball Mech gets sculpted.
$530k - Corporation and Marauder prone counters sculpted. One of each added to Keeper and above pledges.
$545k - Nameless Spawn sculpted.
$550k - Downloadable Inlays produced.
$565k - Alpha Simian sculpted.
$580k - The Zees Team sculpted. 2 Zees added to Striker
$585k - 2 Season 2 prone markers. Added free to Striker
$600k - Zee MVP. Added free to Jack and Striker
$605k - 2 Season 2 prone markers. Added free to Striker
$625k - Barricade sculpted.
$645k - Teraton Team sculpted. 2 Teratons added to Striker
$655k - Season 3 prone counters sculpted
$670k - Teraton MVP sculpted
$685k - Alt sculpts for all season 2 teams
$700k - Alt sculpts for all season 3 teams
There are two main pledge levels, Jack ($100) and Striker ($150). Jack level is currently worth over $243, Striker level is worth over $382.
Additionally there are numerous other smaller and larger pledges available, as small as the $30 Guard level if you just want a team, MVP, and digital copies of the rules and expansions to play pick-up games.
- Curious about the rules? A free 20-page download of the core rules can be found here. Additionally, a quick Q&A can be found at the end of this post.
Created by the finest sculptors, artists and game designers, DreadBall – The Futuristic Sports Game is the first in a series of visually stunning sci-fi sports games, to be supported with expansions introducing new teams and exciting new gameplay, building on the already impressive 84-page full-colour A4 rulebook.
List of everything you get at different pledge levels:
$10 - "Visitor": - Digital copy of the DreadBall rulebook.
- Kickstarter Bonus: Digital copy of the DreadBall season 2 expansion book.
$30 - "Guard": - Digital copy of the DreadBall rulebook.
- A Team of your choice. (includes all season 2 teams)
- Kickstarter Bonus: DreadBall Trophy
- Kickstarter Bonus: Digital copy of the DreadBall season 2 expansion book.
- Kickstarter Bonus: Digital copy of the DreadBall Ultimate expansion book.
- Kickstarter Bonus: Free MVP, varies depending on what team you choose
$80 - "Keeper": - Digital copy of the DreadBall rulebook
- DreadBall Boxed Game ($80 RRP)
- Cover art print
- Kickstarter Bonus: Digital copy of the DreadBall season 2 expansion book.
- Kickstarter Bonus: Digital copy of the DreadBall Ultimate expansion book.
- Kickstarter Bonus: Robotic Referee
- Kickstarter Bonus: DreadBall Trophy
- Kickstarter Bonus: 2 additional alternate sculpt Humans
- Kickstarter Bonus: 2 additional alternate sculpt Marauders
- Kickstarter Bonus: 4 additional Humans
- Kickstarter Bonus: 4 additional Marauders
- Kickstarter Bonus: Corporation and Marauder prone counter.
- Kickstarter Bonus: Sprue of 22 clear plastic Hex Bases
- Kickstarter Bonus: Decal sheet
$280: 2x everything at the $150 pledge level, including all Kickstarter bonuses.
$430: 3x everything at the $150 pledge level, including all Kickstarter bonuses.
$850: 6x everything at the $150 pledge level, including all Kickstarter bonuses + league poster and promotions pack.
$1500: Everything at the $150, including all Kickstarter bonuses, painted by Golem.
Free shipping to the US and UK for all pledges, $15 to other areas of the world.
DreadBall Rules Q&A:
Spoiler:
Is it I-go-you-go or do you activate models individually? What are the various designs for on the field?
- A combination of both. Each turn (or "Rush" as the rules call it) you get to spend a certain amount of action tokens to move and take actions with your models, once you've used them all play passes to the opposing player.
There's an element of overwatch in play too, in that you can't just run past opposing models in your turn without having to try and dodge their attempts to smack you down.
- The designs on the field are the strike zones and goals.
There are 3 on each side of the pitch, once you've moved into the strike zone (lit up hexes), you can attempt to throw the ball into the goal hex.
As soon as a point is scored, the teams are not reset, but a ball is immediately re-launched from the centre of the pitch and play continues instantaneously.
First team to gain a lead of 7 points wins, or if the game reaches 14 rushes for each side, then the leading side wins. If it's a tie, then play continues into "sudden death" mode where the first team to score a point wins.
Can you go into maybe the core mechanic or statline concept?
We talking back and forth turn based? Interactive both sides turns? One sided play mechanics? Reactive dice rolls and interrupts?
- d6 used for everything. There is also a deck of 54 cards of various types that are played in-game for various effects.
- Stats are Move, Strength, Speed, Skill and Armour. There's a ton of different special skills in addition.
- Back and forth.. you get 5 Action Tokens to spend each turn, which can be used to move/perform actions with models, or you can spend them on cards. Interrupts are featured, as a special ability that lets you act in the middle of your opponents turn.
- Your turn ends once you've spent your 5 AP or you lose possession of the ball, either by losing it to the opponent, or by making a successful strike.
What is the intended/max team size? 5actions makes it sound like teams are small like 6 max which makes me think hockey.
Is scoring based upon a basket, a goal or endzone? Like moving the ball somewhere to score?
- 8 player starting teams during the game, 6 players allowed on the pitch and 2 substitutes. Players can move on and off of the yellow square at the back.
- Teams of up to 14 Players can be used during league play and exhibition matches (where you buy your teams yourself instead of using the basic starter teams). 6 players on the pitch, the rest of them are substitutes.
- The game is more hockey/basketball than football. No player actually touches the ball (it moves at very high velocity, is solid titanium + anti-grav and would break players hands), they use hooked extensions to their arms or holographic catchers/launchers (as can be seen on the cover art). Think the idea is basically the that game is one giant pinball machine! The ball can even be used as a weapon, launching it at other players heads.
- Not just one goal, 3 of them! You can attempt to "throw a strike" whenever you are standing in the glowing area ofhexes on the board, and there is nothing between you and the goal.
Does the Rulebook have rules for other teams than the 4 mentioned teams?
(Orcs, Humans, Forgefathers and Veer-Myn)
No, but the Kickstarter will have stretch goals for an additional 4 teams, including an all-female one. The basic book contains rules for a ton of "Star Players" (called MVPs) which are available to bid on in leagues.. lots of different types here, ranging from robots to tentacle aliens that entangle their opponents.
5 AP per turn.. does playing a card take a point, or is it drawing a card take a point?
Is there any other way to getting cards in hand other than paying an AP?
- Drawing a card takes a point.. playing the cards is done at various points it seems (sometimes in your turn, sometimes your opponents turn, even in the middle of one of their moves).
- Each team starts with a certain amount of cards of a particular type... seems like particular cards can be bought mid-match during a league too.
(New thread for the purposes of an updated OP by me, mod approval for this received here) Old thread here for reference.
If you're going to start a new thread (which is a fine idea) I think you should copy all the pictures in the old thread into the OP.
Edit: I see you've edited in one above, so great
As to the KS itself, for $80 there are a lot of other board games I'd rather get. The miniatures look nice, but are apparently monopose (see the team pics below where the same models are all posed identically) so not of much use for anything else.
They've learned something from Relic Knights - the "early bird" discounted starter sets to get people to pledge on the "sweet spot" levels early.
Reposting my conversation to SS here as the other thread got locked minutes after I posted, preventing his reply...
scarletsquig wrote:
Arguably, Mantic already includes superior miniatures to the majority of board games out there. it's just the printing and graphics side of things that needs work.
There's also a higher level of investment needed to make the miniatures for Dreadball, since it isn't just re-using KoW or Warpath models
Which is where the Kickstarter comes in -alternate sculpts, new sculpts, new teams, new special characters and cheerleaders.
I'm glad that they're starting with a high quality baseline for this, it should cut down on boring stretch goals that are just about upgrading the dice/ cards/ counters.
Being neither a Mantic cheerleader nor a hater, the figures for PP and DKH/expansions (I own all of them) are nice models, but suffer from being wargames miniatures rather than boardgame pieces. GW figured this out from 4th Edition 40k onwards with push-fit models, but if you compare to the stuff that FFG provide in Decent and Dust and Tannhauser everything else, Flying Frog's stuff, Claustrophobia, Wizards' various D&D games and so many others - their figures are pretty damned good. In a lot of cases better than Mantic's stuff - and certainly on a par by any standards. Except they're ready to go when you open the box, rather than a bunch of baggies filled with grey plastic. Their figures might be much better than, say, the pegs in Pandemic, but this is a boardgame that's sold on the visuals of the miniatures at least as much as the gameplay.
I'll probably be in for this KS if it looks reasonable, and so far I do like the look of the models. If the KS gives us enough models, I'll buy it based on that alone (as I did with Sedition Wars). But that's because on balance, I do like Mantic and their ethos, and also because I'm a miniatures guy. If they're trying to enter the boardgame space, and do it properly, they need to try to be on a par with FF as far as component quality goes - that goes as far as improving the physical boxes the games come in. I hope they do manage to do so. I'm also a bit dubious on the model count.
Basically, I'll probably be backing it, but if they want to compete in the same space as FFG et al, they need to match them in component quality rather than just price. Descent 2nd Ed has a US RRP of $80. That's the quality and quantity level they're competing with if they want to be taken seriously in the boardgame space, as opposed to a niche game that's just for miniatures people.
NYA MGE DBM01-1 Dreadball Futuristic Sports Game $79.99
- Fake Edit. OK I'm down for "Striker" at this point. I considered double-striker, but there doesn't seem to be any point. I wouldn't mind extra minis but don't want to pay for an extra board etc to get them.
Looks good, and I actually prefer the look of the Forge Fathers and Veermyn to the ones originally posted! The Forge Fathers in particular look like mini-juggernauts
I don't think $80 is too unreasonable, especially compared to the cost of most half-decent board games these days (which can be a lot more).
I'm glad it has free P&P to the UK as well, that was always one of the PITAs of the CMoN kickstarters..
"More poses" was listed as a stretch goal in the video, so rest assured that more exist - and they'll show them to us if only people give them enough money..
Not really blown away by the offers, so I'm on the fence. I'll keep on eye on it to see what the stretch goals look like as they will likely determine if I'm in on this one or not
Pacific wrote: Looks good, and I actually prefer the look of the Forge Fathers and Veermyn to the ones originally posted! The Forge Fathers in particular look like mini-juggernauts
I don't think $80 is too unreasonable, especially compared to the cost of most half-decent board games these days (which can be a lot more).
I'm glad it has free P&P to the UK as well, that was always one of the PITAs of the CMoN kickstarters..
$80 is the non-discount price of Descent 2nd edition. The D&D boardgames (Ravenloft, Ashardalon, Drizzt) are $65. Dust Tactics revised is $80. Last Night on Earth is $60. Claustrophobia is $65, BSG is $50. These are non-discount prices, and these are all considered more than decent games - all in the same "miniatures boardgame" space that this is in. They've priced themselves at the top end of the Fantasy Flight level...
$80 is the non-discount price of Descent 2nd edition. The D&D boardgames (Ravenloft, Ashardalon, Drizzt) are $65. Dust Tactics revised is $80. Last Night on Earth is $60. Claustrophobia is $65, BSG is $50. These are non-discount prices, and these are all considered more than decent games - all in the same "miniatures boardgame" space that this is in. They've priced themselves at the top end of the Fantasy Flight level...
I think this may be an issue.
I do have a soft spot for Blood Bowl and will follow this carefully. But the first reaction at those "Kickstarter-prices" was that I'll likely get it cheaper after Christmas from Wayland Games or the like than on the KS. And I can even benefit from product-reviews.
Yeah, with currently only 16 minis in the box, compared to recent board game kickstarters (Sedition Wars, Zombiecide) this is very little bang-for-your-buck for $80.
To get the other 2 teams you need to go in for $150 it seems (or $140 if early... but that's still pretty darn high)
$80 is the non-discount price of Descent 2nd edition. The D&D boardgames (Ravenloft, Ashardalon, Drizzt) are $65. Dust Tactics revised is $80. Last Night on Earth is $60. Claustrophobia is $65, BSG is $50. These are non-discount prices, and these are all considered more than decent games - all in the same "miniatures boardgame" space that this is in. They've priced themselves at the top end of the Fantasy Flight level...
I'm not sure about that mate, I've got a couple of the D&D games and the miniatures aren't particularly good. Not bad per see, and certainly fine for the game, but they aren't really worth painting. They are a kind of soft-rubbery plastic, some of them are bent at the ankle, and I would say not a patch on the restic stuff I've had from Mantic so far.
Although had a quick look at the Descent 2 ones, and they do look somewhat better! Thanks for pointing that game out by the way, always wanted by the original but I couldn't find it at anything less than a mentally high price before!
Where's the female ref figure? Didn't see it listed as in the box or as a special feature. Did they miss it? Can't say I'm excited even though I love blood bowl.
While $80 seems to me slightly more than the going rate, it's not going to dissuade me; it's still slightly less than GW are charging for an edition of Blood Bowl that's 15 years old, and looks it, dating as it does from GW's "retina-searingly bright" period.
Actually, looking at the prices, it becomes apparent that the benchmark for board games is simply rather higher here in the UK. $80 is £50 at today's rate, meaning one should expect Dust Tactics to retail for that; instead, we pay £75. So if $80 looks expensive to Americans, that's really just the consequence of US manufacturers artificially inflating prices over here for year. US backers are, of course, also getting free postage absorbed within that $80, a privilege conspicuously not extended by CMON even to the UK co-produced Sedition Wars.
Anyway, the miniatures and components look well-designed and executed (indeed lavishly-so, and not merely by Mantic's standards), and the rules sound appropriately fast and crunchy. I for one am looking forward to DreadBall every bit as eagerly as Sedition Wars.
$80 is the non-discount price of Descent 2nd edition. The D&D boardgames (Ravenloft, Ashardalon, Drizzt) are $65. Dust Tactics revised is $80. Last Night on Earth is $60. Claustrophobia is $65, BSG is $50. These are non-discount prices, and these are all considered more than decent games - all in the same "miniatures boardgame" space that this is in. They've priced themselves at the top end of the Fantasy Flight level...
I'm not sure about that mate, I've got a couple of the D&D games and the miniatures aren't particularly good. Not bad per see, and certainly fine for the game, but they aren't really worth painting. They are a kind of soft-rubbery plastic, some of them are bent at the ankle, and I would say not a patch on the restic stuff I've had from Mantic so far.
Although had a quick look at the Descent 2 ones, and they do look somewhat better! Thanks for pointing that game out by the way, always wanted by the original but I couldn't find it at anything less than a mentally high price before!
Yeah, the D&D games probably aren't the best comparison because the minis aren't as good, but if you've seen any of the new stuff coming out of FFG you'll have noticed they're using a much firmer plastic for their minis now, which allows for much better sculpts. I dont know that their top-tier wargaming quality miniatures, but I think they're actually pretty close. And just wait till if you get hands on with the Relic busts if you haven't already. Good Lord I can't wait to paint those.
I think, like some have already said, the real problem with the "sweet spot" price here is that its $150. I'm thinking about what $150 got me with Zombiecide, what it got me for Sedition Wars, what it will get me with Reaper Bones, and What it'll get me for Relic Knights, and I have to think the price point is too high. Considering those four aformentioned Kickstarters all had their 'sweet spot' at $100, going with $150 for this seems awfully steep.
As far as boardgames go, $150 can get stretched a long ass way at The War Store or Coolstuffinc.com. We're talking a copy of Descent V2, Gears of War, one of the D&D Games, and probably even the new D&D Dungeon Command. Just seems awfully high by comparison.
$80 is the non-discount price of Descent 2nd edition. The D&D boardgames (Ravenloft, Ashardalon, Drizzt) are $65. Dust Tactics revised is $80. Last Night on Earth is $60. Claustrophobia is $65, BSG is $50. These are non-discount prices, and these are all considered more than decent games - all in the same "miniatures boardgame" space that this is in. They've priced themselves at the top end of the Fantasy Flight level...
I'm not sure about that mate, I've got a couple of the D&D games and the miniatures aren't particularly good. Not bad per see, and certainly fine for the game, but they aren't really worth painting. They are a kind of soft-rubbery plastic, some of them are bent at the ankle, and I would say not a patch on the restic stuff I've had from Mantic so far.
Although had a quick look at the Descent 2 ones, and they do look somewhat better! Thanks for pointing that game out by the way, always wanted by the original but I couldn't find it at anything less than a mentally high price before!
Yeah, the D&D games probably aren't the best comparison because the minis aren't as good, but if you've seen any of the new stuff coming out of FFG you'll have noticed they're using a much firmer plastic for their minis now, which allows for much better sculpts. I dont know that their top-tier wargaming quality miniatures, but I think they're actually pretty close. And just wait till if you get hands on with the Relic busts if you haven't already. Good Lord I can't wait to paint those.
I think, like some have already said, the real problem with the "sweet spot" price here is that its $150. I'm thinking about what $150 got me with Zombiecide, what it got me for Sedition Wars, what it will get me with Reaper Bones, and What it'll get me for Relic Knights, and I have to think the price point is too high. Considering those four aformentioned Kickstarters all had their 'sweet spot' at $100, going with $150 for this seems awfully steep.
As far as boardgames go, $150 can get stretched a long ass way at The War Store or Coolstuffinc.com. We're talking a copy of Descent V2, Gears of War, one of the D&D Games, and probably even the new D&D Dungeon Command. Just seems awfully high by comparison.
I believe Ronnie confirmed the $100 level would get the stretch add-ons just as well, so you'd be fine with that one. the $150 (or $140, for those of us refreshing the kickstarter newly launched page at moment of launch ) pledge gets you two additional teams.
...Which will retail at $25 each, I believe. so you'd not be missing all that much, it seems (though probably there will be *some* stretches exclusive to striker level?)
$80 is the non-discount price of Descent 2nd edition. The D&D boardgames (Ravenloft, Ashardalon, Drizzt) are $65. Dust Tactics revised is $80. Last Night on Earth is $60. Claustrophobia is $65, BSG is $50. These are non-discount prices, and these are all considered more than decent games - all in the same "miniatures boardgame" space that this is in. They've priced themselves at the top end of the Fantasy Flight level...
I'm not sure about that mate, I've got a couple of the D&D games and the miniatures aren't particularly good. Not bad per see, and certainly fine for the game, but they aren't really worth painting. They are a kind of soft-rubbery plastic, some of them are bent at the ankle, and I would say not a patch on the restic stuff I've had from Mantic so far.
Although had a quick look at the Descent 2 ones, and they do look somewhat better! Thanks for pointing that game out by the way, always wanted by the original but I couldn't find it at anything less than a mentally high price before!
I've got the D&D Boardgames, and whole some of the figures aren't inspiring, some of them are pretty damned nice, espcaily once you get some paint on them and see what the sculpts are like. I've been painting my way through Ravenloft myself - when I finish I'll post a link to mine, in the meantime, checktheseout. You also get 40-50 of them per box, and for $15 less than DreadBall.
No probs on Descent, there's also a thread with some pics here.
Bear in mind, I'm no Mantic hater, but I'm somewhat careful with my money - and regardless of the initial KoWKS, this one is just a glorified pre-order. I dropped out of the Relic Knights KS because the value was poor for the money and lead time - and if I'm still interested next year I can just buy it at retail. I hope this one is better, but I'm often described as being black hat in nature.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cyporiean wrote: Kickstarter is apparently broken at the moment, as I can't make a pledge...
Just keep trying. It took me about 5-10mins to get mine through.
Theophony wrote: Where's the female ref figure? Didn't see it listed as in the box or as a special feature. Did they miss it? Can't say I'm excited even though I love blood bowl.
I've got the D&D Boardgames, and whole some of the figures aren't inspiring, some of them are pretty damned nice, espcaily once you get some paint on them and see what the sculpts are like. I've been painting my way through Ravenloft myself - when I finish I'll post a link to mine, in the meantime, checktheseout. You also get 40-50 of them per box, and for $15 less than DreadBall.
.
Wow...That dude did a lovely job painting the D&D minis. I may need to go buy Asharladon now....
This is getting funded faster than I thought it would. I had a suspiscion people have been wanting a sports game, but I thought it'd take half way through the campaign to fund. Should be funded in the first day.
I'm predicting this one is gonna do really well for them. Looks great and I know there's a pretty good sized market for "fantasy football" minis, so why not sci fi too. I'd jump in on this one, but I'm all tapped out now :( In the last few months I've bought into Ogre, Sedition Wars, Dropzone Commander, 40K 6th ed and now X-wing and a Dreamforge Leviathan. No idea when I'll even get to play all those games let alone paint this stuff
Necros wrote: I'm predicting this one is gonna do really well for them. Looks great and I know there's a pretty good sized market for "fantasy football" minis, so why not sci fi too. I'd jump in on this one, but I'm all tapped out now :( In the last few months I've bought into Ogre, Sedition Wars, Dropzone Commander, 40K 6th ed and now X-wing and a Dreamforge Leviathan. No idea when I'll even get to play all those games let alone paint this stuff
Looking at the figures, I guess it'd be reasonably easy to convert your own extra players using figures from the WHFB/KoW/WP/40k lines. Hopefully stretch goals will jack up the two main pledge levels with enough extra players so that you can field a "full" team including the rest of the squads as SS alluded to. Actually, the "alternate poses" might(?) fill that hole. I just hope they don't delay in adding extra minis. Look at Relic Knights to see how well they started, and how badly they've stalled.
I'm just grateful that this time around they made it a real kickstarter, with clear goals and stretches ready out the gate. Looks like they learned a lot from the last one, that was a complete mess at first. This time around it's crystal clear what you're getting, and where they're going with the money they get in.
The game itself looks good, all-plastic sports games are pretty rare, and the sci-fi setting certainly interests me a heck of a lot more than Grind did. It is a bit pricey for what you get, but since it's almost already funded I can only see it getting better and better by the time it finishes. Part of what makes KS projects so fun is you get to look at what would have released if they had done it themselves, and watch as it evolves, I can't wait to see where this one goes.
To be fair, I think the first time around they were just trying to get a little bit of extra money to make some moulds, and got completely taken by surprise and overwhelmed. They've clearly taken a lot of note from Sedition Wars and other successful campaigns in the meantime.
How much of it is "if they would have done it themselves" and how much is directly added via the Kickstarter is debatable, though. Once again, I point to the RK KS - not to mention the fact that they clearly have the other teams and star players etc sculpted and even up for retailer pre-orders (they're even pre-listed in the pledge levels!)
The game itself looks good, all-plastic sports games are pretty rare, and the sci-fi setting certainly interests me a heck of a lot more than Grind did. It is a bit pricey for what you get, but since it's almost already funded I can only see it getting better and better by the time it finishes. Part of what makes KS projects so fun is you get to look at what would have released if they had done it themselves, and watch as it evolves, I can't wait to see where this one goes.
At this point, because I'm really not getting a ton of benefit from pledging, I'll wait toA) see if The 25th Anniversary BloodBowl box is a reality, and B) see how much cheaper it will be at a place like the warstore afterwards.
I went in at the Early Bird Striker level. It's hard to justify the cost right now, but if it's not a good deal by the end of September I can always withdraw or reduce my pledge.
I'm a big enough fan of Blood Bowl that I suspect I'll be happy with this one anyway.
Time to get into the meat of this thing, I have an email from Mantic that says both Jack ($100) and Striker ($150) levels are going to be getting the freebies.
This doesn't seem like a great deal right now, but the way these other kickstarters have been going the value might be completely different after a few weeks.
...aaand, it's the ref in all games, ever, at $40.000.
$40,000 – The Ref
This is the Referee and she is one mean mamma. With eyes literally in the back of her head she watches out for fouls, and players take it in turns to move her a random number of hexes based on the card they draw from the pack.
She’s a real beauty of a figure and if we pass through this goal, we’ll add the Ref to every copy of DreadBall – The Futuristic Sports Game, ever!
Thanks again for your support and for joining us on this crazy journey. Please keep spreading the word and let's see where we end up.
yeah,
I disagree with change of threads.
Why should anyone have preferance over another as to who gets to run a thread...
as far as I'm concerned the old thread was serving the
purpose of bringing news to people.
Panic wrote: yeah,
I disagree with change of threads.
Why should anyone have preferance over another as to who gets to run a thread...
as far as I'm concerned the old thread was serving the
purpose of bringing news to people.
Boohoo you didn't get to update the OP.
Panic...
yes, because anything providing coherent and informative, let alone even somewhat positive, coverage of mantic subjects in pretty much the same way that is managed for other topics at times is just very, very bad for you somehow, isn't it?
I'm sure that if the TS on the other topic had volunteered to keep updating the OP mods would have left it in his hands. As it stands, this approach makes for better and clearer information for those of us actually looking for that and it's not as if you're not capable of dropping your same old tired turds on this topic just as well. so please, continue. keep on spending minute after minute explaining why this game/project isn't worth your time...
I grabbed one of the early bird strikers and I am quite happy with the listed products received, however given the KOW kickstarter and the extra loot i got with my pledge there I figure this is only going to become a better deal.
Panic wrote: yeah,
I disagree with change of threads.
Why should anyone have preferance over another as to who gets to run a thread...
as far as I'm concerned the old thread was serving the
purpose of bringing news to people.
Boohoo you didn't get to update the OP.
Panic...
No huge deal. Better that someone who will keep the OP updated has the ability to do so on these things. It's not like criticism is not allowed.
Panic wrote: yeah,
I disagree with change of threads.
Why should anyone have preferance over another as to who gets to run a thread...
as far as I'm concerned the old thread was serving the
purpose of bringing news to people.
Boohoo you didn't get to update the OP.
Panic...
yes, because anything providing coherent and informative, let alone even somewhat positive, coverage of mantic subjects in pretty much the same way that is managed for other topics at times is just very, very bad for you somehow, isn't it?
I'm sure that if the TS on the other topic had volunteered to keep updating the OP mods would have left it in his hands. As it stands, this approach makes for better and clearer information for those of us actually looking for that and it's not as if you're not capable of dropping your same old tired turds on this topic just as well. so please, continue. keep on spending minute after minute explaining why this game/project isn't worth your time...
Regardless of how you thing it should be done, this isn't how things are done around here.
we always lock duplicate threads based on who posted the information first. regardless of the quality of the OP.
this preserves the previous dialogue that's already been had.
Who is to say that a thread run by a mantic fanboy is better for dakka than a thread run by someone else.
Can I declair myself a better OP updater and demand this thread closed so that I can open another thread that is more balanced in the reporting of the product?
SeanDrake wrote: I grabbed one of the early bird strikers and I am quite happy with the listed products received, however given the KOW kickstarter and the extra loot i got with my pledge there I figure this is only going to become a better deal.
It'll pretty much have to be - at this point you'd be better off buying at discount after release... all you'd not get that way right now is a print of the front cover and your name listed somewhere. even early bird striker is only <7% off of MSRP.
...of course in a few weeks time this will hopefully be a whole different story, and if not you can always cancel, so pledge!
I'm moving into a college dorm right now so I wont be on Dakka for a few hours I bet so if I had the original topic I wouldnt be able to update it throughout the day.
Panic wrote: yeah,
I disagree with change of threads.
Why should anyone have preferance over another as to who gets to run a thread...
as far as I'm concerned the old thread was serving the
purpose of bringing news to people.
Boohoo you didn't get to update the OP.
Panic...
yes, because anything providing coherent and informative, let alone even somewhat positive, coverage of mantic subjects in pretty much the same way that is managed for other topics at times is just very, very bad for you somehow, isn't it?
I'm sure that if the TS on the other topic had volunteered to keep updating the OP mods would have left it in his hands. As it stands, this approach makes for better and clearer information for those of us actually looking for that and it's not as if you're not capable of dropping your same old tired turds on this topic just as well. so please, continue. keep on spending minute after minute explaining why this game/project isn't worth your time...
Regardless of how you thing it should be done, this isn't how things are done around here.
we always lock duplicate threads based on who posted the information first. regardless of the quality of the OP.
this preserves the previous dialogue that's already been had.
Who is to say that a thread run by a mantic fanboy is better for dakka than a thread run by someone else.
Can I declair myself a better OP updater and demand this thread closed so that I can open another thread that is more balanced in the reporting of the product?
Panic...
...but it is, this is far from the first topic given preference not on time of first post but on quality of OP and updates thereof.
now if you had any ability of communicating information regarding mantic without a thick, thick slant to it perhaps yes, you'd be a superior OP maintainer. wouldn't mind that - if you could lay off of the manticbashing for a moment.
go and look at SS's original KoWKSOP. sure, he likes the product, that much is obvious. but he makes clear what is opinion and what is fact and took a lot of time to clarify a dazzling amount of the latter, stating simply which pledge got what, which extra had what later expected MSRP, clarifying things and keeping nicely organised lists of stuff.
these were factual, detailed, helpful.
quite the opposite to the turds you keep dropping on Every.Single.Mantic.Thread...
edit and besides, if you take issue with mod actions like this please take that to the appropriate forum instead of derailing this thread as you are so wont to... and yes I'll stop backseatmodding myself too, now
I'm moving into a college dorm right now so I wont be on Dakka for a few hours I bet so if I had the original topic I wouldnt be able to update it throughout the day.
Whatever the mods are ok with
While it's good that your happy with this upheaval.
I don't think dakka should start giving threads to people who want OP status because they believe that they are more worthy?
Thin end of the wedge and all... And if this is dakkas new direction I vote that kroothawk be given every thread.
I'm moving into a college dorm right now so I wont be on Dakka for a few hours I bet so if I had the original topic I wouldnt be able to update it throughout the day.
Whatever the mods are ok with
While it's good that your happy with this upheaval.
I don't think dakka should start giving threads to people who want OP status because they believe that they are more worthy?
Thin end of the wedge and all... And if this is dakkas new direction I vote that kroothawk be given every thread.
Panic...
yes I'm sure KH would *love* a fulltime unpaid job.
worthy? wth? for the love of god will you stop twisting peoples words just this once?!? he's willing to take the time to list and update information and has a proven good track record in that field.
oh well, never thought I'd use that "ignore" list but I really do advise anyone reading this topic to do the same; never ever has Panic posted a single morsel of useful information in a mantic thread or, as far as I can remember, anywhere else in N&R so let's save ourselves the whining
So its been confirmed that the 100 and 150 level pledges will get stuff from the stretch goals added?
I'll be keeping a close eye on the stretch goals as right now the human and ork teams really dont interest me and 80 bucks for the starter set plus a bunch of models I dont have interest in is a little iffy for me....but if some awesome stuff gets thrown into the $100 pledge then it wont be hard for me to look past models I dont want
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also might be nice to take the off topic thread starter rage somewhere else...
A mod had no problem with a new thread so maybe its best to discuss with him
@Ironicsilence SS said so - I do believe it's been bandied about both on the mantic forums and the comment thread on KS. no link for you right now but it's fair to say that's likely how it'll work. it fits their earlier approach as well.
Bolognesus wrote: never ever has Panic posted a single morsel of useful information in a mantic thread or, as far as I can remember, anywhere else in N&R so let's save ourselves the whining
And I had price info up before anyone else.
And I do want to see the rules and will proabibly buy a copy of this game for the pitch.
And back OT I think its a shame that mantic thinks it's PDF is worth $10...
I was expected the dreadball rules .PDF to be given out free.
GWs specialist games have free .PDFs... just saying...
@Ironic: Yeah, $100 and $150 will be the levels that get all the goodies.
Mantic tends to be quite generous with these things, so expect a mixture of single models and entire teams to appear as freebies. Wouldn't be surprised to see an extra 50 or so miniatures thrown in by the end of this.
Panic wrote: While it's good that your happy with this upheaval.
I don't think dakka should start giving threads to people who want OP status because they believe that they are more worthy?
Thin end of the wedge and all... And if this is dakkas new direction I vote that kroothawk be given every thread.
Panic...
Totally agree. All sorts of information about what the game actually entails was lost all because one of Mickey's magical brooms had to carry water and sweep things under the rug at the same time. The old thread had valid questions, concerns and discussion going on. This 'clean thread' is the hallmark of a paid marketing person on behalf of a corporation. No Kickstarter or company should be 'owned' a one-sided positive only thread, that is what their kickstarter page for. Presenting a one-sided rosey impression of their business model and product. 3rd party unaffiliated discussion boards are not for that which is why it is pretty unreasonable for every single Mantic thread to be horribly censored and cleaned like it was a corporate website.
People are being asked to pre-order a game which they have absolutely no idea what it is... and possibly unseen minis which they have no idea what they look like. The only reason this Kickstarter isn't a total mess is because they actually have a few painted examples which lends some legitimacy to it. I feel most of the previous thread was legitimate discussion.
And onto the game... I want to know more about the tourney/leauge rules for teams growing from game to game and if it has rules for that form of format. (both a static 3-6 game tourney or a multiweek league system and player growth if any.)
nkelsch wrote: The old thread had valid questions, concerns and discussion going on. This 'clean thread' is the hallmark of a paid marketing person on behalf of a corporation. No Kickstarter or company should be 'owned' a one-sided positive only thread, that is what their kickstarter page for. Presenting a one-sided rosey impression of their business model and product. 3rd party unaffiliated discussion boards are not for that which is why it is pretty unreasonable for every single Mantic thread to be horribly censored and cleaned like it was a corporate website.
feel free to copy/paste anything you feel relevant. as you say, it's a discussion board. I'm sure any questions left unanswered will be quickly answered here.
and really, how is this a "one sided positive only thread"? isn't panic up to his usual antics? are you not allowed to post your POV?
feel free to copy/paste anything you feel relevant. as you say, it's a discussion board. I'm sure any questions left unanswered will be quickly answered here.
and really, how is this a "one sided positive only thread"? isn't panic up to his usual antics? are you not allowed to post your POV?
Yes, by removing the old thread and everyone's previous comments and restarting the thread with only specific information and constantly having people constantly have post removed and new threads every time someone feels the 'image' of the thread has fallen of message is disturbing.
Corporate news posts threads don't need a focused message... people can go to the link on the first post to read the corporate message.
I find a lot of the posts on page 5 of the previous thread good analysis of the value of the kickstarter... all of that was not moved to this thread and is lost in a locked thread people won't see.
Also, I see the 'packages' and see that it is designed around people who want multiple teams or multiple boxed sets. I personally would ever only want one team (orcs) and one board... so I am deincentivised to invest higher than specific amounts. Now being an ork collector, I would possibly consider it if I knew the sprues and if I could figure out a way to get enough models via the kickstarter to make my team for the game as well as have models for conversions and fun for other gaming systems where a space armored ork/goblin are needed.
But of course, I can always consider waiting for Mantic to release marauders which actually have the ork proportions I want and look like space warriors instead of attempting to convert dreadball orks... but that being said... since all i want are the orc figures, my goal is to find the best way to get hose in bulk or not at all. I think other people may think similar about the humans... or other teams. Maybe a goal with just raw sprue count availble?
Bolognesus wrote: isn't panic up to his usual antics? are you not allowed to post your POV?
Ok can you copy me into the examples of my previous antics?
I'm not sure of what I'm being accused of here as this is the first manitic thread I've been involved in in a long time.
Have you got the correct person?
Yeah, 3 pages and half of the posts are "oh noes, the OP is different! This has totally unfair-sed my brain and opinion that I spent time and mind power typing up so people would knows it!" Changing threads is mildly annoying and it cuts the flow of discussion, but it's hardly worth getting worked up over. OP only matters for news and updates, it's the last page that really matters anyways.
At the risk of staying on topic, has there been any insight on what the next 4 factions might be? I know there were supposed to be 8 races for Warpath and a few of them even had names iirc, bnut not much more than that. I imagine the Dreadball races will match those factions, so it might be some nice cross-info on what's down the pipe for both games.
Good point, I'm beginning to think Panic is a corporate shill as well now.
Really the problem is the impression that this thread is about Dakkanauts being sold Dreadball by a Mantic rep and not a discussion about Dreadball by Dakkanauts.
While not against the rules here I for one think adverts belong in the strip at the top of the page not in the content. A small but vital difference.
Kalamadea wrote: At the risk of staying on topic, has there been any insight on what the next 4 factions might be? I know there were supposed to be 8 races for Warpath and a few of them even had names iirc, bnut not much more than that. I imagine the Dreadball races will match those factions, so it might be some nice cross-info on what's down the pipe for both games.
There are the Zz'orr who are some insectoid aliens, and the Asterians, broadly described as space elves, to come, and I seem to recall mention of strange things emerging from black holes too. the Veer'myn are described in-game as the "Eighth Race", so presumably there will be eight of them in total.
Useful post over, now everybody can get back to bellyaching about which thread we should be using...
scarletsquig wrote: @Ironic: Yeah, $100 and $150 will be the levels that get all the goodies.
Mantic tends to be quite generous with these things, so expect a mixture of single models and entire teams to appear as freebies. Wouldn't be surprised to see an extra 50 or so miniatures thrown in by the end of this.
thats my hope, even a single team that looks neat I'd i'll be back to throwing the shut up and take my money meme around. $100 for the starter set and a team I'd want to play plus whatever else gets added in sounds perfecto
notprop wrote: Good point, I'm beginning to think Panic is a corporate shill as well now.
Really the problem is the impression that this thread is about Dakkanauts being sold Dreadball by a Mantic rep and not a discussion about Dreadball by Dakkanauts.
While not against the rules here I for one think adverts belong in the strip at the top of the page not in the content. A small but vital difference.
And if Scarlet is a Press Ganger? What difference does it make?
Virtually all "Kickstarter-discussion" on this forum are started and kept lively by the people who are behind the respective Kickstarters.
Not to mention the ad-threads kept by Zinge or Scribor or whoever is doing wargaming bits & bolts out there.
I can see the logic behind your moral objection. But if you make that judgement, you should pass it fairly to everyone and to every discussion here that is drumming their own product a little bit.
RiTides wrote: ...I don't like this Kickstarter, but I would like to get back on topic.
I'll get straight back on topic once I've been told which other mantic threads I've left 'turds' in?
I put my hands up and say that I'm not a fan of mantic. I find it hard to support a company that seems to have a product line that blatantly mirrors another companies products? That said I've not been overly negitive about Mantic, and I've asked to be pointed to where fanbois believe I have been.
I backed at $100 for now see how this develops - can someone clarify 1 thing the difference between $100 and $150 is the 2 extra teams and digital creating of book the 2 teams available separately both cost $40 ($20 each) - now I know I'm only assuming that the next teams will cost $20 but are you paying $10 extra for a digital book or have I missed something?
DaveC wrote: I backed at $100 for now see how this develops - can someone clarify 1 thing the difference between $100 and $150 is the 2 extra teams and digital creating of book the 2 teams available separately both cost $40 ($20 each) - now I know I'm only assuming that the next teams will cost $20 but are you paying $10 extra for a digital book or have I missed something?
Original dreadball leak thread had their MSRP at $24.99 each. Also I suppose that, like the differences between $175 & $225 on the KoWKS the $100 level will get a lot of extras, but there will be a few things on top of that for the "striker!" level yet.
Thanks yeah I assumed from some of Mantics comments that Striker $150 gets more stuff on top of what Jack $100 gets I can always up it later just not interested in Skittersneak Stealers team so I'll hold off until more teams are revealed and decide then the Midgard Delvers team look great though - they remind me of Ram man from He-man!. Hopefully more poses will get unlocked as the 3 per faction is a bit limited for now.
I find it hard to support a company that seems to have a product line that blatantly mirrors another companies products?
I know. Its ridiculous. Seriously.
Games Workshop is so blatantly ripping off Dungeons & Dragons, Robert E Howard's Conan... and we all know that Orcs are TM and (c) J.R.R.Tolkien. can't wait for Michael Moorcock to sue them for stealing literally everything about Chaos and Dark Elves from him.
Been sick of the "ripping off GW" claims that every company who makes fantasy anything has endured for the past 20 years when almost nothing GW themselves have done had any spark of originality.
I also specifically love the anti-Mantic hate because these are all GW employees. Funny how everyone would be praising this if it had a different company logo on it even with the same game designers.
DaveC wrote: ...the Midgard Delvers team look great though - they remind me of Ram man from He-man!
So they do! Amazingly, I had failed to spot that, but it's yet another reason to invest, because Ram-Man, it has been suggested, could become as valuable as gold... (N.B. I realise he won't, but it's a pleasingly silly story.)
The Rats look better than their Warpath counterparts as the armor they are wearing is actually 'space' armor, not steampunk. But they seem to be missing their space pants which has confused me. Their upper body is amazingly armored and then they have kneepads and a diaper?
I am also confused why the Forefathers which are armored up in the Warpath line are now breaking out their leather boots for this futuristic space battle. I mean even the Orcs and Goblins armored up head to toe (and I do mean toe as they actually are wearing shoes!!!) and the forefathers who probably int he Fluff built the armor for the orc team are playing sports in their peasant tabards and hiking boots?
I am highly confused and disappointed and as a massive Bloodbowl fan and someone who paints up sports games minis... I am very discouraged.
Give the rats space roller skates. Give the Dwarves hydralic hammer space fists... I dunno, I can't see how robot space men are playing a super sport in the future against half-naked rats with no padding.
At least the Orcs are good and that is my primary focus. Maybe This is not a serious attempt at a stand-alone sports game so the models needed to be made compatible with a fantasy universe to hedge bets should the game not take off. More Elfball?
I find it hard to support a company that seems to have a product line that blatantly mirrors another companies products?
...Been sick of the "ripping off GW" claims that every company who makes fantasy anything has endured for the past 20 years when almost nothing GW themselves have done had any spark of originality.
I also specifically love the anti-Mantic hate because these are all GW employees. Funny how everyone would be praising this if it had a different company logo on it even with the same game designers.
Which table top war game did warhammer copy? or 40k? or spacehulk or bloodbowl?
There is a difference in being inspired by something like the aliens movies and making a game like Spacehulk.
And looking at another company and thinking I could that but for cheaper...
I find it hard to support a company that seems to have a product line that blatantly mirrors another companies products?
...Been sick of the "ripping off GW" claims that every company who makes fantasy anything has endured for the past 20 years when almost nothing GW themselves have done had any spark of originality.
I also specifically love the anti-Mantic hate because these are all GW employees. Funny how everyone would be praising this if it had a different company logo on it even with the same game designers.
Which table top war game did warhammer copy? or 40k? or spacehulk or bloodbowl?
There is a difference in being inspired by something like the aliens movies and making a game like Spacehulk.
And looking at another company and thinking I could that but for cheaper...
Panic...
Off the top of my head, Chainmail and Laserburn. And WHFB was originally a chit game (models optional) so certainly any number of Avalon Hill games. Remember, Warhammer was created when GW lost the D&D license.
Moreover, it's a bit of a stretch to accuse DreadBall, or indeed Project Pandora, of being straight copies of Blood Bowl or Space Hulk; the mechanics are sufficiently different that there's really very little similarity to be found beyond their respective themes.
Now I don't doubt that Mantic see Blood Bowl- and Space Hulk-shaped gaps in the market - ones of GW's own making, mind you - and are more than happy to fill them, but that's really not the same thing, and shouldn't invite any particular opprobrium. (Particularly since GW have been unapologetic about the wholly-commercial basis of the rationale behind their dropping Space Hulk and (effectively) Blood Bowl.)
I can't say that I'm excited about any sort of sport game or minis. But the human and orc teams look great. The ref is fantastic too.
The Veermyn and Dwarf teams don't look so hot. Though that could just be the one picture we have of them being bad (and it is mostly from behind).
* I will add that I'm grateful there's a Kickstarter out there that is finally NOT tempting me to throw a bunch of money at it to get a dump-truck full of minis I don't need emptied in my driveway.
I simply don't think there's enough value to be had in this kickstarter to warrant backing it. I'm not anti-Mantic, but I think the sculpts are a little blah and generic for what the asking price is, and I knew right away I wouldn't be backing when their "early bird" offering was at $140.
Compared to other products in the market, what you seem to be getting with this game simply isn't up to par. Had they included the two extra armies as a piece of the $80 package, I think more people would be interested in backing. As is, unless you're just dying to get a hold of this as early as possible, I don't see any reason not to just wait and get it from a discounter.
judgedoug wrote: Off the top of my head, Chainmail and Laserburn. And WHFB was originally a chit game (models optional) so certainly any number of Avalon Hill games. Remember, Warhammer was created when GW lost the D&D license.
If we are saying once you place pieces on the table your coping an idea that's aready been done I'll accept your point that GW has copied other companys ideas.
It's widly accepted that Warhammer FB is the first fantasy tabletop battle game that involves armies of minitures. Warhammer came about when GW they noticed that peoples D&D collections of minitures became too big to use all of them in Roleplaying enviroments, and came up with a game that allowed you to play with all your toys. A bit like how they invented apoc to allow people to use all their 40k toys. 40k was doing that but in space.
Before GW made Warhammer there was no game out there with armies of skeletons fighting armies of dwarfs. Before GW made 40k there was no tabletop miniture war gaming with Space orks fighting Space elfs. Before GW made bloodbowl there was no fantasy football involving orks, dwarfs, humans or skaven...
It seems that once a Mantic thread is started and someone mentions GW the mantic fans all come out in number crying about thread derailment... To this extreme case whereby they demanded (and got) a thread reboot. I've even had wild accusations thrown at me that 'I'm up to my usual antics' dispite having not posted negitively in a mantic thread before dreadball. I'm starting to get the feeling that this must be the standard welcome you recieve in all mantic threads?
Which causes me to ask; Why is it that no one is accusing companies like Studio McVey of stealing ideas from GW? While people are accusing Mantic of coping GW? Could it simply be a result of the fact that Studio McVey has had original ideas while Mantic have none?
Fantasy football has been done before both with and without fantasy creatures. The only original idea I can see is that game pieces do not reset which looks very interesting. At first look it looks like the flow of the game will mimic basket ball where by teams run from one end to the other.
I'm interested in it because I like fantasy football and I like space so I'm closely following the topic. But I will not be told by mantic fanbois that I can not compare the game to bloodbowl in the dreadball thread.
AlexHolker wrote: Looks like the number of women in the Warpath universe has increased to a grand total of one. That's progress, I suppose.
...it's actually a robot/cyborg.
OTOH, you realise that many sports are segregated by gender, right? (although it's a bit silly on the face of inter-species competition!)
And we don't know if, say, veermyn or marauders are actually distinctly different per gender to our eyes...
AlexHolker wrote: Looks like the number of women in the Warpath universe has increased to a grand total of one. That's progress, I suppose.
Robots with bewbs count as females?
Considering Warpath fluff, if the enforcers can only be male, and this sports team are based off those types of troops, any female team would need to have a different tech or something.
I would still love to see a Female Marauder from a non-spore-based space ork universe. Someone gotta be birthing these green killing machines and maybe they play sports too!
I'm not overly excited by the design of the board and sort of wished the models would have more details. The model design is quite stale if you think there are multiple races and lots could have been done (my humble opinion).
I would love to see them going a but more crazy with the model design and the design of the board.
All female team will be great tho
I'm looking forward on the development of all of it really I am quite the fan of space/mini's/fantasy football. It's always fun to play, so I suppose they can't do any wrong there (unless the rulebook turns out to be... well you know).
Kalamadea wrote: Yeah, 3 pages and half of the posts are "oh noes, the OP is different! This has totally unfair-sed my brain and opinion that I spent time and mind power typing up so people would knows it!" Changing threads is mildly annoying and it cuts the flow of discussion, but it's hardly worth getting worked up over. OP only matters for news and updates, it's the last page that really matters anyways.
At the risk of staying on topic, has there been any insight on what the next 4 factions might be? I know there were supposed to be 8 races for Warpath and a few of them even had names iirc, bnut not much more than that. I imagine the Dreadball races will match those factions, so it might be some nice cross-info on what's down the pipe for both games.
I imagine that at least one will be vaguely based on the "browncoat humans" who are rebelling against the corporation. - if not openly, a non-coporation human faction that are a bit more low-tech with their armour.
Anyways yea I suspected there were going to be more females with one of the star players being female
But this begs the question, are there going to be any females in warpath? Even if it was just resin females heads on corporation heads it would be a decent change of pace
Anyways yea I suspected there were going to be more females with one of the star players being female
But this begs the question, are there going to be any females in warpath? Even if it was just resin females heads on corporation heads it would be a decent change of pace
There are female corp soldiers in the fluff, other then Enforcers, so I'd imagine we'll see them down the line.
I know. Its ridiculous. Seriously.
Games Workshop is so blatantly ripping off Dungeons & Dragons, Robert E Howard's Conan... and we all know that Orcs are TM and (c) J.R.R.Tolkien. can't wait for Michael Moorcock to sue them for stealing literally everything about Chaos and Dark Elves from him.
Been sick of the "ripping off GW" claims that every company who makes fantasy anything has endured for the past 20 years when almost nothing GW themselves have done had any spark of originality.
I also specifically love the anti-Mantic hate because these are all GW employees. Funny how everyone would be praising this if it had a different company logo on it even with the same game designers.
You are correct in regard to GW's "originality". Mantic is just as "original" as GW, but to deny that much of their "look and feel" is derived specifically from GW's take on those things. OTOH, being ex-GW employees, some/many of them may have been involved with varying degrees in creating that specific GW "look and feel". I mean, let's not pretend that Abyssal Dwarves were made up out of whole cloth. They're clearly based on and presented as a (cheaper?) alternative to the Forgeworld/OOPGW Chaos Dwarf models. You see, I'm actually fine with that. But let's not pretend that they (and their bull-centaurs) would exist if not for the GW Chaos Dwarf army. This doesn't mean that GW "own" the concept of a Lammasu, either.
Then again, people defending Mantic's "originality" would do well to remember that everything is a deliberate choice. Space Orkx in general, the helmets of the Corporation players...
Don't confuse fair criticism or realistic observation with hate.
Which table top war game did warhammer copy? or 40k? or spacehulk or bloodbowl?
There is a difference in being inspired by something like the aliens movies and making a game like Spacehulk.
And looking at another company and thinking I could that but for cheaper...
Panic...
Well, that first one's easy if you want to go that route. Chainmail. Laserburn.
On the other hand, there's no "rule" that says once a product is created in one genre or another that anything resembling it cannot be created by anyone else, ever. You may as well join Battlefront in declaring WW2 "their IP" and getting upset that other 15mm WW2 miniature ranges exist. (and like Warhammer, they weren't first, either.)
Off the top of my head, Chainmail and Laserburn. And WHFB was originally a chit game (models optional) so certainly any number of Avalon Hill games. Remember, Warhammer was created when GW lost the D&D license.
Aaaaaand.. beaten to it by a mile. In my defence, I was sleeping overnight.
Laserburn was written buy Bryan Ansell, who set up citadel and bought GW off of Jackson and Livingstone; Who then went on to employ some Priestley feller to write 40k.
Spot on for Chainmail, though that was more of a derivation of Historic games as was then.
Dreadball eh, who would have thought we would get here.
Now back to topic, I'm still not sure of the board; looks a little undefined to me. Just a bunch of hexes and blocks of hexes on a starfield. Can anyone shed some light on that.
All the talk of Speedball had me thinking of metal courts with ramps and a thing for shooting a metal ball out of?
Right you are. But the point is that neither Warhammer/40k were wholly new creations. Both are iterations on concepts brought about in other games. Hell, many editions of those two are better described as "inspired by" previous editions, given some of the radical changes in their mechanics. The main difference is that KoW/WP have a different publisher - even though - like Laserburn to 40k, some of the same people involved in the preceding games are involved in the new ones.
Was hoping someone would catch the Ansell angle. An idea in one company spun off into a newer company's newer ruleset. Like GW employees spinning off into a newer company with a newer ruleset. Even using derivative Laserburn miniatures to make the original beakie marines.
But sure, I guess I am a Mantic fan. I haven't had as much fun playing a fantasy wargame since Warhammer 6th. And I am excited for Dreadball, as I love Blood Bowl and have played it for...15 years?...and will continue to play it. But there's been no active support for it in 7 or 8 years.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry for the awkward formatting, using my smartphone to post.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, Panic's post reminded me of some links I saw on TMP to scanned articles detailing fantasy miniatures rules from the early/mid 70's that were not Chainmail. I might try to find the link again for anyone interested but don't wanna keep derailing the thread.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And as an addendum, I totally agree with much of Mantic's original business ideas - which were (obviously) to provide a much cheaper alternative to GW's models. Nothing wrong with healthy competition, and despite being a loyal GW fan since Space Hulk first edition, these last few years (imo) have been the worst, and they have lost me as a customer. But then I saw Mantic - I basically ignored the company until a few months ago, but the new Kings of War ruleset is what made me an instant fan.
Panic wrote:I don't think dakka should start giving threads to people who want OP status because they believe that they are more worthy?
Thin end of the wedge and all... And if this is dakkas new direction I vote that kroothawk be given every thread.
1.) Seems to be unique to Mantic threads that they are closed and restarted, when some Mantic fans feel uncomfortable with negative opinions. Not the first time and certainly not the last time.
2.) Even if I had the time (which I don't ), I wouldn't start and maintain Mantic threads, because Mantic is one of the very few Miniature companies, that I don't support because of the way they do business which in my personal opinion is dishonourable. Doesn't help that they have yet to release a product that I am interested in.
Yes, your opinions on Mantic have been well publicised, many times Kroothawk
Don't see what the problem is of giving the thread to ScarletSquig? He's been massively active, both here and on other forums, in trying to bring news about Mantic stuff as quickly as possible. What better choice to have him as the first person updating the thread, especially as it seems that he has a contact from the company, and can therefore inform people interested of new developments?
The only criticism I can think of him is that his name abbreviates poorly..
Saying stuff about him taking money from the company? Please, go and watch some more X-files, it's beyond pathetic.
And I don't see any criticism here being stomped on? Why would anyone, least of all the mods, have an interest in doing such a thing?
2.) Even if I had the time (which I don't ), I wouldn't start and maintain Mantic threads, because Mantic is one of the very few Miniature companies, that I don't support because of the way they do business which in my personal opinion is dishonourable. Doesn't help that they have yet to release a product that I am interested in.
Dishonourable? At risk of further derailing the thread, how so? Unless it's simply "copying GW's IP", in which case don't bother. I'll just spend the time painting up my original Hormagaunts, Kruellagh DeVile, Sly Marbo and Shaeffer's Last Chancers and play a game of Space Hulk while watching the Battle of Pelennor FIelds segment of my Lord of the Rings Blu-Ray. Then I'll re-read some Moorcock, Herbert or Heinlein.
A more legitimate criticism of Dread Ball, in my opinion is that they're now "Relic Knights"-ing with the referee figure. Stuff you could consider "fake" stretch goals. Much like "Casino Quality Cards". AKA things you know they were going to do anyway presented as "stretch goals".
It's dishonourable to make a competing product and beat GW on price? And to be so communicative with your customer base that the CEO makes youtube videos and blog posts? How about listening to customer feedback about rules during the KoW/Warpath public betas and the communities suggestions actually getting implemented in the rules.
I don't see how some of these are "fake" stretch goals. Check out some of Mantics other board games, them Frontline Gamer has some good (if slightly biased) review. The games look pretty good (haven't played them myself) but the components are crap. Cheap card tiles, boxes that are the thin cereal box type of cardboard and not the thicker cardboard that you'd expect from a board game meant to sit on your shelf for years. Clearly these "fake" stretch goals would NOT be included in the base game if Mantic released it through traditional means.
I really like the idea of using KS to make the actual release better, I can't believe relic knights is catching so much crap for the cards and plastic tokens as stretch goals. That's the PERFECT thing to use KS for, I think, and the alternate sculpts and plastic tokens for Sedition Wars were my personal favorite stretches since they are direct improvements on the final product that everyone gets, not just the KS backers. Get a lot of moeny from KS, improve the compnents, add lots of alternate sculpts. Win.
More stuff is awesome of course, but if KS is (supposedly) about getting a product to market, and it's that final product that I'm more concerned with. The free stuff you get for backing early are just bonuses, this thing has to survive and thrive in a retail environment for years to come, and the better they make it now, the more likely that is to happen.
After seeing the Dwarf Kings Hold contents in person, I ended up buying the rules in PDF and using my D&D dungeon tiles and reaper miniatures I had from running RPGs.
Dreadball needs to be better than those and I think Mantic knows it.
frozenwastes wrote: It's dishonourable to make a competing product and beat GW on price? And to be so communicative with your customer base that the CEO makes youtube videos and blog posts? How about listening to customer feedback about rules during the KoW/Warpath public betas and the communities suggestions actually getting implemented in the rules.
So dishonourable! LOL
Personally I think yearly price increases for no other reason than "Let's see how much we can rip the nerds off for!" qualifies as pretty "dishonorable" behavior. And while we're at it, how about ignoring the current exchange rate and insisting on charging countries like Australia or Canada more for their product based on what the conversion rate was years prior, locking in that particular rate for no other reason than "It's higher so we can make more money!"? Or how about making it almost (if not outright) impossible for people in certain countries to buy your product because you want all the money and have effectively "banned" online sales to those areas of the world?
Not to sound like a Mantic fanboy or anything...I couldn't care less about Mantic, or whether or not you're a fan yourself. But seriously, "dishonorable"? I had to "lol" myself when I read that.
frozenwastes wrote: It's dishonourable to make a competing product and beat GW on price?
Hey, that business model worked for Samsung! Wait a minute... what? Lost a suit and forced to pay 1 billion dollars? oooooh... Maybe making original products might be worth considering as taking your competator's products, duplicating them and charging less doesn't always work out well.
Kalamadea wrote: I don't see how some of these are "fake" stretch goals.
I'm not sure if your missing the point people have made...
The contents are not yet worth $80.. but that's because we have yet to 'unlock' the full game.... once we all put in our cash we will start to see 'kickstarter levels of value!'
Kalamadea wrote: I don't see how some of these are "fake" stretch goals. Check out some of Mantics other board games, them Frontline Gamer has some good (if slightly biased) review. The games look pretty good (haven't played them myself) but the components are crap. Cheap card tiles, boxes that are the thin cereal box type of cardboard and not the thicker cardboard that you'd expect from a board game meant to sit on your shelf for years. Clearly these "fake" stretch goals would NOT be included in the base game if Mantic released it through traditional means.
I already own their other board games. All of the DKH series, and PP. (huh-huh-huh. I said pee-pee. huh-huh-huh) So I don't need reviews of them. In case you haven't been reading much of this thread, the boxed game already has apremium price point that really needs to have a lot more included in it to justify it's cost, compared to any of their competition. Details in the previous post I just linked, but for a visual - these are the same RRP price point:
Now these may well be Mantic's nicest figures yet. They're certainly up there. But I don't think anyone could justifiably call either the Descent or Dust figures poor, either. I've also avoided making comparisons to Blood Bowl or GW product or prices here, because GW doesn't sell boardgames. (though you can still find Dread Fleet in my city - heavily discounted). Unlike KoW/WP, GW isn't the competition here.
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It's not like they're now going to design and tool the referee. It's already sculpted and painted and on display all over the place. The additional costs would amount to casting them and putting it in the box. Which should be paid for with the not-insignificant boxed set price. It's not like they need to be designed or sculpted, and since they were clearly expecting it to make it to this goal within the first few days at the most, it was already a given. Let's not be so naive here.
To further elaborate, the "goal" here is $20k. Now I'm very happy to believe that Mantic were completely blown away with surprise at the first KS, but this one is as well-planned as the other ones we're now seeing. It's really a glorified pre-order scheme designed to have a Day 1 community for the game when it's released. This isn't about "making it happen" - it's already going to happen in December. But unlike other posters here, I'm actually completely okay with that. But let's not be naive. At minimum, getting up to at least $100k, any stretch goals are a complete given and really, a fiction as far as being "stretch" is concerned. They're all things that were going to happen whether this game was released direct to retail or with a "Kickstarter marketing buzz" (which is what this campaign actually is). The extra teams we're going to "unlock" are already included in the pledge levels, as are (at least) the first two Star Players. Panic had the pre-order info for retailers posted in the previous version of this thread.
Striker! – DreadBall – The Futuristic Sports Game, the Midgard Delvers and Skittersneak Stealers teams, a digital “Creating DreadBall” book, Lucky Logan and Slippery Joe MVPs, a digital copy of the DreadBall rules, a signed lithoprint of the cover art AND be listed as a supporter in our Fanzone on the DreadBall Website.
If only we pledge, the figures shown above might be designed, sculpted and cast!
NYA MGE DBF11-1 DB Midgard Delvers $24.99
NYA MGE DBF70-1 DB Forge Father MVP $9.99
NYA MGE DBH11-1 DB Trontek 29er's $24.99
NYA MGE DBH70-1 DB Human MVP $9.99
NYA MGE DBM01-1 Dreadball Futuristic Sports Game $79.99
NYA MGE DBO11-1 DB Greenmoon Smackers $24.99
NYA MGE DBO70-1 DB Goblin MVP $9.99
NYA MGE DBV11-1 DB Skittersneak Stealers $24.99
NYA MGE DBV70-1 DB Veer-myn MVP
Oh, I get that it probably isn't worth $80 as-is, although based on what they've already released I actually have absolutely no doubt that that $80 would have gotten you the game they showed you initially. You are not "unlocking the full game", you would have gotten that game with the cheap components. Mantic would have made it that way because they've already shown that they're fine with releasing games with not-so-great components but charging as much as other (better quality) games of the same theme. Mantic is going to charge you $80 for this game and people seem to be perfectly fine with that since it funded in 2 hours, but I for one am glad to see that this KS will improve the game that hits the shelves and might actually make it worth that amount. Unlike their other board games that I really like but are just too expensive for what you get.
But that's a seperate issue as I'm not even actually talking about Mantic or Dreadball specifically. I'm talking about the general trend of whining about stretch goals that improve the base game components instead of just giving people more free stuff because they feel those things should have been included form the start. More free stuff is always cool, and it's what got some of those KS projects to such crazy high amounts amounts, but now people expect to get triple as much stuff or isn't worth their time The point of KS is to get projects made (or made better) that would not have been made ( would not have been made as good) and not just to get as much free crap as possible. That's supposed to be an added bonus and thank-you, not the point. With Zombiecide and Sedition Wars, people now expect free stuff for every goal and are insulted when they don't get that for every single stretch. It's become an entitlement thing. Games are expensive, and traditionally you have to front all the money for the entire print run long before it ever hits shelves and you see a dime of return on your investment.
The games have to be able to stand on their own for years to come, and the better the value of the box sitting on a store shelf once it releases normally, the better it's going to sell. Compared to being sold in stores over the coming years, KS is an incredibly limited market . KS is not a one-and-done thing, it's the preparation for bringing the actual product to market and I see a whole lot of people missing that point when they complain about how X stretch goal isn't more free stuff or Y stretch should have been included from the beginning.
Whether you think $80 is worth it for what you get or whether you like an established company like Mantic doing KS projects to begin with are whole seperate issues that I'm specifically not addressing, it's been debated to death already.
Kalamadea wrote: Oh, I get that it probably isn't worth $80 as-is, although based on what they've already released I actually have no doubt that that $80 would have gotten you the game they showed you. You are not unlocking anything, Mantic would have made it that way because they've already shown that they're fine with releasing games with not-so-great components but charging as much as other (better quality) games of the same genre.
But that's a seperate issue as I'm not even actually talking about Mantic or Dreadball specifically. I'm talking about the general trend of whining about stretch goals that improve the base game components instead of just giving people more free stuff. More free stuff is always cool, and it's what got some of those KS projects to such crazy high amounts amounts, but now people expect to get triple as much stuff or isn't worth their time The point of KS is to get projects made (or made better) that would not have been made ( would not have been made as good) and not just to get as much free crap as possible. That's supposed to be an added bonus and thank-you, not the point. With Zombiecide and Sedition Wars, people now expect free stuff for every goal and are insulted when they don't get that for every single stretch. It's become an entitlement thing.
The games have to be able to stand on their own, and the better the value of the box sitting on a store shelf once it releases normally, the better it's going to sell. People seem to forget that these are products that will be around and need to sell for years, KS is an incredibly limit market by comparison. KS is not a one-and-done thing, it's the preparation and I see a whole lot of people missing that point when they complain about how X stretch goal isn't more free stuff or Y stretch should have been included from the beginning.
Whether you think $80 is worth it for what you get or whether you like an established company like Mantic doing KS projects to begin with are whole seperate issues that I'm specifically not addressing, it's been debated to death already.
Well as many pointed out in the RK KS, once a game is funded there might not be a point to giving money if the stretch goals are marginal/wotnot and that you mind as well wait for the base game to be out in a normal store (especially for shipping purposes!)
I'm talking about the general trend of whining about stretch goals that improve the base game components instead of just giving people more free stuff.
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I see a whole lot of people missing that point when they complain about how X stretch goal isn't more free stuff or Y stretch should have been included from the beginning.
While you were typing the above, I was editing my post to address much of what you discuss here. All of the currently listed stretch goals are a fiction. They're all things that are a given to happen regardless of this KS's existence. Details above in my post.
Thats the thing though, they were going to make stuff like the robot ref, but it would have been in metal and a seperate figure. And Mantic STILL would have charged $80 for the game. Even if I don't pledge to this KS (and I don't plan to) , if I do pick up the game at some point after release then that's an improved game I get, and might be a tipping point or not. If I pick up Dwarf Kings Hold in the FLGS and look at it's components for $60, I'm going to think about it but put it back (because I have, many times). But if it had a real box, with thick card tiles, I'd have paid that $60 for it months ago, and probably all the expansions too.
Same for relic knights, they would have made the higher quality cards as an addon pack that would have cost you $10. They would have made the plastic counters as an addon pack that would have cost you another $10. Sedition wars, same thing, you would have had cardboard counters if it released through traditional routes and you saw it on the shelf. Still worth the price? Probably, but for people on the fence it tips it over into "definite buy" territory. And I see a whole lot of people that are up in arms because they're improving the game with stuff that "should have been included anyways" or "would have been included anyways" that actually probably wouldn't have been included anyways. I like free stuff as much as the next guy (assuming he likes free stuff a lot), but again, the free stuff is secondary to making the thing you get, the thing everyone gets, even better.
2 alternate sculpts (one for each team) will be produced and 2 copies of each will be included in all copies of the game. Again, this applies to all copies.
So, 21 minis in the box so far.
From what I've heard about the ref, she was going to be a metal blister sold seperately because Mantic couldn't afford to get her tooled and put into the box. Same goes for these alternate sculpts (which definitely wouldn't have made it in, because they haven't been sculpted yet). Now they can.
I'm pretty cool with the KS goals being used to directly improve/add stuff to the basic set. It means that even people who don't back the kickstarter, but buy the game later can still benefit to some extent.
I think the plastic tooling is the thing here, Pacific.. the more copies they know they are going to sell, the easier it becomes to invest more in plastic tooling (due to the high mould costs), which in turn means that more stuff can be put into the basic box, as the relative cost per model on mantic's manufacturing end drops dramatically in direct proportion to the number of copies they sell. E.g. Sell 1000 copies, and your production costs might be $0.50/mini.. sell 3000 copies and that might drop down to $0.30/mini due to economies of scale.
Restic is an economic "mid point" between metal models and injection plastic. Tooling costs are in-between the two. Casting costs are in-between the two... so getting high sales really will allow them to put more minis in the box for *everyone*.
If this were a Warpath Kickstarter, and was this time last year, we'd be getting "give the forgefathers sci-fi legs stretch goals" and while a lot of people would be happy about that, there would be others thinking "yeah, no way were they ever going to give them fantasy legs in the first place, this is BS"... when of course the truth is that Mantic often makes decisions that murder the quality of their own product for bean-counter reasons.
With kickstarter around, they can ditch that type of thinking and actually produce a quality product. I think they're thinking a little bit beyond the kickstarter with this one, it is a new gaming system for them that they intend to support with new releases on a regular basis and run tournaments for.
scarletsquig wrote: New stretch goals are up.
2 alternate sculpts (one for each team) will be produced and 2 copies of each will be included in all copies of the game. Again, this applies to all copies.
So, 21 minis in the box so far.
From what I've heard about the ref, she was going to be a metal blister sold seperately because Mantic couldn't afford to get her tooled and put into the box. Same goes for these alternate sculpts (which definitely wouldn't have made it in, because they haven't been sculpted yet). Now they can.
I'm pretty cool with the KS goals being used to directly improve/add stuff to the basic set. It means that even people who don't back the kickstarter, but buy the game later can still benefit to some extent.
Fair enough. I'm going to simply assume that companies don't always tell all of the truth, even to their most loyal fans - instead choosing what information to share, leak, mislead on or withhold completely. I almost added into my large post above that I assumed that adding the alternative sculpts would bump the game to 10 or 11 players per team, (just like Bloodbowl!) but I felt it was already a given, and said by others.
IMO at least, this is all still going "according to plan" and we haven't hit any actual stretch goals yet. I wouldn't have been a first-hour pledger if I thought what's shown so far would be all that we get.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kalamadea wrote: Thats the thing though, they were going to make stuff like the robot ref, but it would have been in metal and a seperate figure.
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And I see a whole lot of people that are up in arms because they're improving the game with stuff that "should have been included anyways" or "would have been included anyways" that actually probably wouldn't have been included anyways. I like free stuff as much as the next guy (assuming he likes free stuff a lot), but again, the free stuff is secondary to making the thing you get, the thing everyone gets, even better.
I'm not "up in arms" by any means. I just think that them only needing 20k as an initial goal is clearly an arbitrary, easily reached amount. ($20k for what exactly? What does the base level let them do? Release the game?)
I'm also not naive. If the ref was really going to be a separate figure, it'd be on the release schedule price list and not their first stretch goal. Be dispassionate about the whole thing for a moment. Step back mentally. Do you think they were actually in any doubt that they'd hit $40k? ergo - "fake" stretch goal.
At the very least, until the Skaven and Dwarf teams are both unlocked, we're not seeing any actual stretch goals. For KS backers or for the box set inclusion. How can I say this with any kind of certainty? Because the Skaven and Dwarves are already sculpted and also included in the "Striker" level.
Judging by my copy of the rules and what I've heard abut the ref being metal leading up to this, I think (in a world without kickstarter) the ref would have been included anyway since there are 3 pages of rules for her, but she would have been single-piece metal... and that this in turn would have meant that those 4 extra players that we're getting in the $60k stretch would not have been able to be added.
So, in short.. plastic ref = money saved = savings invested into 4 more minis in the box.
There's something a little more complex going on here.. the rules refer to having 8 models in each team, 8 models for each team in the box, the rosters list 8 models as what you get in your starting team, and the main rules state that you can only use 8 players at a time (6 on the pitch, 2 subs).
So, references to "8 models" everywhere strongly hints that 10 per team (8 + 2 bonus) definitely wasn't the plan all along. From what I can tell, the $60k goal is pretty clearly a legit universal upgrade to the game, even if the ref is on shakier ground.
Free trophy mini is pretty sweet as a $10k stretch, too.
Fair enough. I'm going to simply assume that companies don't always tell all of the truth, even to their most loyal fans - instead choosing what information to share, leak, mislead on or withhold completely. I almost added into my large post above that I assumed that adding the alternative sculpts would bump the game to 10 or 11 players per team, (just like Bloodbowl!) but I felt it was already a given, and said by others.
Actually Blood Bowl teams usually came in 12 player boxes and you were at serious disadvantage in leagues, if you didn't have full 16-players at your disposal.
(So many sweet cas... substitutes needed.)
Squiggy. Mate.
Stonehaven Miniatures, also known as "who?" made over 80k with their nice sculpts of random dwarf adventurers. Do you really, honestly, truly think that Mantic were in any doubt that they could/will make $80k from this kickstarter? One they have clearly designed much more clearly and cleverly than their initial one, right down to taking notes from 2-week-old Relic Knights and having "early bird" discounts which front-load the initial pledges and obtain additional early momentum.
Ronnie and co are far from stupid. They are in fact very smart. There's no doubt in my mind that this one will make at the very least $250k. If they're willing to throw in a decent amount of "added value" as in their last campaign, they'll easily hit $500k
Now how much did they need to release the referee? $40k? Extra players? $80k?
We haven't seen the new teams offered yet. They may have juggled some of the loot around after seeing how badly RK stalled when they went straight after the nickle-and-dime extras, so the additional teams might not come till there's more momentum, but these goals so far are all a given. The 50k trophy? That'll be a version of what they'll give away at the many tournaments they intend to support as opposed to something made especially for this KS. Do I have a problem with any of this? No. No I do not. But it's not all wide eyed and wonderful and working things out on the fly. This is a "properly" well-designed campaign.
Since we can already see the skaven and dwarf teams are sculpted and painted, perhaps their stretch goals will be a couple of extra sculpts for each, and included in their team boxed sets at retail, for evermore?
Actually Blood Bowl teams usually came in 12 player boxes and you were at serious disadvantage in leagues, if you didn't have full 16-players at your disposal.
(So many sweet cas... substitutes needed.)
I was trying to remember what came in the boxed core game - the plastics, rather than the metal boxes. I always supplemented the boxed sets with a few blisters and converted more players from WHFB back in the day. I got my 3rd edition of BB when it came out in the coffin box, with the card sets rather than the skinny box reprints later on, and those figures have been scattered to the four winds, so it's been quite awhile.
I'm not "up in arms" by any means. I just think that them only needing 20k as an initial goal is clearly an arbitrary, easily reached amount. ($20k for what exactly? What does the base level let them do? Release the game?)
I'm also not naive. If the ref was really going to be a separate figure, it'd be on the release schedule price list and not their first stretch goal. Be dispassionate about the whole thing for a moment. Step back mentally. Do you think they were actually in any doubt that they'd hit $40k? ergo - "fake" stretch goal.
Of course there was no doubt that they'd hit $40k and make a plastic ref. None. There certainly wasn't any doubt they'd hit $20k, although 2 hours is pretty crazy. But if this KS had not been done, you would not have gotten a plastic ref. It would have been seperate, and in metal, and the game still would have been $80 and not had any alternate sculpts. Just by having a KS, they were pretty much guaranteed to have that in the base game, by not having a KS at all, there would not. Mantic has proven that they'll half-ass things if they have to front everything themselves.
Now, I'd RATHER the KS included all these things as the initial, larger goal and just take longer to get there. I'd RATHER the goal be something crazy like 100k and have it epic and awesome and show you all this amazing stuff and slowly build to that. But all these big projects have been going in this direction of small, easy initial goal with multiple stretches because it works better. I don't like it, but it gets money in faster this way and in the end it's all the same thing. If mantic had made the initial goal $40k to get it made with a plastic ref, it's the same as a 20k and another 20k stretch. It's not a fake goal, you still would have had to pledge just as much, it just happens over time instead of all being there from the get-go.
TBH, I can't think of a single situation in which any company can legitimately do a "we'll add X to all copies forever" stretch goal without being open to "Yeah, well, pretty sure you guys were going to do that anyway" thinking.
I have a hunch that the Veermyn and Forgefather "team unlock" rewards might be something like 2 free models (one of each type) for Jack, and 4 models for Striker.
You can use models from other races in your team, they are needed for the underdog rules which randomly generate players from the basic 4 teams, so there will be a valid use for just having 2 of the models.
Whereas striker level will probably get a nice boost to 12-model teams. Not going to be surprised if it's a full 14 for each team in striker by the time this is done, they only need 3 more "alt sculpt" stretch goals of $10k each to make that happen.
All just speculation at this point, but I agree that this is very well planned.
Whatever happens, I'm fairly sure they're just going to stick with the freebies and not mess around with any of this "$40k stretch goal to unlock a mini that you have to pay another $10 for" malarky that CMoN get away with.
Relic Knights with its "you get to choose only 2 free models, and pay for the rest" structure is kinda sucky, so the absence of that in the pledge levels is encouraging.
Looks like they've cherry-picked the best idea (early bird) from that campaign and ditched the rest in favour of making sure that they're constantly adding free minis.
Of course there was no doubt that they'd hit $40k and make a plastic ref. None. There certainly wasn't any doubt they'd hit $20k, although 2 hours is pretty crazy. But if this KS had not been done, you would not have gotten a plastic ref. It would have been seperate, and in metal, and the game still would have been $80 and not had any alternate sculpts. Just by having a KS, they were pretty much guaranteed to have that in the base game, by not having a KS at all, there would not. Mantic has proven that they'll half-ass things if they have to front everything themselves.
Over the course of today, I've slowly changed my perspective. I've gone from "This boxed game is poor value! WTF are they thinking?" to "DERP, idiot! (me). They're probably going to make it an $80 game that's worth $80 - this is the hype machine we're riding, and almost/all of the WE WILL MAKE THE WHOLE BOX BETTER goals aren't stretching anything, and are part of the $80 game. We're just preordering and building hype, rather than really improving the base game."
Now, I'd RATHER the KS included all these things as the initial, larger goal and just take longer to get there. I'd RATHER the goal be something crazy like 100k and have it epic and awesome and show you all this amazing stuff and slowly build to that. But all these big projects have been going in this direction of small, easy initial goal with multiple stretches because it works better. I don't like it, but it gets money in faster this way and in the end it's all the same thing. If mantic had made the initial goal $40k to get it made with a plastic ref, it's the same as a 20k and another 20k stretch. It's not a fake goal, you still would have had to pledge just as much, it just happens over time instead of all being there from the get-go.
It's just clever marketing. $100k is a million miles away, but another $10k or so is achievable - within reach. The smaller increments are part and parcel aimed at the way human psychology works. We saw this in Red Box Games' KS when Tre's goals were too far apart for such a small enterprise, and the thing stalled badly for a time. Of course they're raising capital to produce the game. Without the $250k this brings in, maybe the game would have been another dinky little DKH-style release, but they're banking on X amount from this in order to produce an $80 game, complete with (hopefully) a good quality box, thick tiles, 10 or (maybe even 15 by the end?) players per team, plastic tokens, etc. Maybe we'll even get plastic-core cards by the end?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
scarletsquig wrote: TBH, I can't think of a single situation in which any company can legitimately do a "we'll add X to all copies forever" stretch goal without being open to "Yeah, well, pretty sure you guys were going to do that anyway" thinking.
Of course they're all open to that way of thinking. But so what? We're not talking generalities, so drop the strawman distraction. Look specifically at the $40k goal and the plastic ref. Kalamadea gets it.
I have a hunch that the Veermyn and Forgefather "team unlock" rewards might be something like 2 free models (one of each type) for Jack, and 4 models for Striker.
Me too. I just said as much in my last post (while you were posting this). It'll be to bring them more or less to parity with the Orks and Marines. I'd go with 10 man team boxes, but you might be privvy to a little more than I am...
Whatever happens, I'm fairly sure they're just going to stick with the freebies and not mess around with any of this "$40k stretch goal to unlock a mini that you have to pay another $10 for" malarky that CMoN get away with.
Relic Knights with its "you get to choose only 2 free models, and pay for the rest" structure is kinda sucky, so the absence of that in the pledge levels is encouraging.
Looks like they've cherry-picked the best idea (early bird) from that campaign and ditched the rest in favour of making sure that they're constantly adding free minis.
As I said, and I think we can agree - Ronnie and co are clever and will have been reviewing Sedition Wars carefully, and watching both Reaper and Relic Knights just as carefully. I asked them to elaborate on the paint, so hopefully we'll seen an answer to that shortly. It'll be interesting to see if the other Star Players are $10 add-ons, BOGOFs or just added to "Striker". I don't think there'd be any real opposition to an amazing KS-only $-add-on figure down the line. People don't minfd a little extra for something special. They just resent feeling like they're being milked. Mantic probably have their KS-exclusive figure already designed and/or sculpted. Maybe an Ogre who can play for any team?
Of course there was no doubt that they'd hit $40k and make a plastic ref. None. There certainly wasn't any doubt they'd hit $20k, although 2 hours is pretty crazy. But if this KS had not been done, you would not have gotten a plastic ref. It would have been seperate, and in metal, and the game still would have been $80 and not had any alternate sculpts. Just by having a KS, they were pretty much guaranteed to have that in the base game, by not having a KS at all, there would not. Mantic has proven that they'll half-ass things if they have to front everything themselves.
Over the course of today, I've slowly changed my perspective. I've gone from "This boxed game is poor value! WTF are they thinking?" to "DERP, idiot! (me). They're probably going to make it an $80 game that's worth $80 - this is the hype machine we're riding, and almost/all of the WE WILL MAKE THE WHOLE BOX BETTER goals aren't stretching anything, and are part of the $80 game. We're just preordering and building hype, rather than really improving the base game."
I dont quite agree. It sounds like they have half of what they need to print the game, What they would like to do is add more plastic pieces to the set, but all they can afford is cheaper metal tooling costs for all the extra miniatures. Kickstarter is a good way to deal with that situation (and is sorta the same theing thats going on with reaper atm). If we dont help out, they have enough plastic molds to make the basic boxed set, with few poses and no umpire. The more money they make from preorders, the more they can tool up molds for additional plastic sculpts. Once they have the molds the plastic miniatures barely cost anything. I do think the "hype machine" will carry the game across the finish line and add a lot of stuff to make it worth 80 dollars, but i do think that there is some common sense behind the kickstarter. We are building the infrastructure so to speak. More infrastructure more goodies.
This is all my humble opinion and in no way transferred into my consciousness by our Mantic Overlords
How about we think of it as a company who has just had a massive campaign recently and saw how effective Kickstarter can be.
They decide now is the time to kick off their sport boxed game and have a a plan for it.
Current Mantic Plan for Dreadball = X for $80.00
However, the majority of their seed money has just gone into providing the loot from a previous kickstarter...
After looking at the beans (and counting them twice) they come to the conclusion that they can only afford to provide half of what they want in the game. Oh noes!
Current Availability of funds for Dreadball = X/2 for $80.00
For whatever business reasons they don't want to be sitting on this game until money magically pops into existence so they accurately represent what X/2 for $80.00 would get a pledger and see what sort of response people give them.
- If people think it sucks, it will fail the kickstarter and they will have to wait for another time or release it entirely themselves down the track.
- If people like it and buy the bare minimum, well it is a start and the name of the game is out there even if it is less than what Mantic had hoped to provide.
- If people really like it and pledge for a certain amount of it then Mantic can provide the planned X for $80.00 Woot!
- If people go great guns and are excited by the "extras" that the increased pledges provide then Mantic has the opportunity to grow the product to the X*2 = $80.00 mark where pledgers get all 4 basic teams, trophies, extra poses and what have you because......they got enough seed money to pay for all these things they wanted AND MORE! And because they could do it all at once they will kick some of the goodness back to the pledgers.
Ok, so that's how I see it.
Am I prissy about it not being the "full game"? Not at all, they were very open with how much it would be and what you would get in it.
Would I like more in the box? Yes, yes I would, I would love 8 teams in the box but it isnt going to happen and is unrealistic to expect it for $80.00. I would be happy with some extra poses, a few star players and the options to buy some extra teams on the cheap. Ohhh maybe a different pitch or two with extra effects on each. Like a Ver-mynn one with holes you can go down and pop out a random different one.....ok I am digressing.
Am I bummed that I can't think of any more of these questions? Damn right I am! It was so clear in my head before I started think about double sided card boards.
frozenwastes wrote: It's dishonourable to make a competing product and beat GW on price?
Hey, that business model worked for Samsung! Wait a minute... what? Lost a suit and forced to pay 1 billion dollars? oooooh... Maybe making original products might be worth considering as taking your competator's products, duplicating them and charging less doesn't always work out well.
I don't think you should bring that in nkelsch, the whole thing is a bit of a joke. Samsung is actually the largest company in the world (it will survive whatever dubious lawsuits are thrown at it), and perhaps most amusingly the chipset used in the iPhone is actually made by Samsung!
I don't think there are any kind of similarity in terms of belligerence between GW and Mantic - Ronnie Renton was apparently the 'most liked guy at GW' when he worked there, a really nice chap by all accounts, and I can't imagine GW going after Mantic to try and claim intellectual property rights over the latter's releases. As others have pointed out, they are all generic fantasy tropes that Mantic happen to be releasing at a lower price, and a lot of them (the orcs for instance) are quite different in terms of concept.
Yeah I agree, I don't think it is a case of illegal copying, more that you would hope that a group of young thrusters like Mantic would use their skillz to go slightly more away from the milieu that they have come from.
Some of their stuff looks good (and I include Dreadball now I see it not quite as a BB clone) but allot is just a bit uninspired.
Anyway I posted a question about the pitch, I demand answers!
@ Scarletsquig - regarding the teams, please can you change your first post? You can have 14 players in your team - not 8!
I got to see the components recently, world apart form Pandora quality with that crappy box. This is a proper Fantasy Flight Gears of War quality game when it comes to the cardstock (proper box, proper board!), just with MUCH better miniatures...
I dont quite agree. It sounds like they have half of what they need to print the game, What they would like to do is add more plastic pieces to the set, but all they can afford is cheaper metal tooling costs for all the extra miniatures. Kickstarter is a good way to deal with that situation (and is sorta the same theing thats going on with reaper atm). If we dont help out, they have enough plastic molds to make the basic boxed set, with few poses and no umpire. The more money they make from preorders, the more they can tool up molds for additional plastic sculpts. Once they have the molds the plastic miniatures barely cost anything. I do think the "hype machine" will carry the game across the finish line and add a lot of stuff to make it worth 80 dollars, but i do think that there is some common sense behind the kickstarter. We are building the infrastructure so to speak. More infrastructure more goodies.
Putting a different spin on the above, one could say that Mantic is basically holding the game hostage: either we donate enough money to make it actually worth $80 or it will suck and it will be our fault.
Putting a different spin on the above, one could say that Mantic is basically holding the game hostage: either we donate enough money to make it actually worth $80 or it will suck and it will be our fault.
One could say that about every game (miniature, board, video, or otherwise) on Kickstarter then.
Or, it could be that these extras truly weren't in their budget for the game, and the KS will give them the necessary funds to include them. Just sayin'.
Putting a different spin on the above, one could say that Mantic is basically holding the game hostage: either we donate enough money to make it actually worth $80 or it will suck and it will be our fault.
That is a peculiar logic.
You are aware that the majority of projects on Kickstarter fail to meet their goals. Are your responsible for their failures because you didn't fund?
If Mantic (or anyone else) puts an offer on the site that doesn't seem worth your money, don't fund it. How can it be your fault?
Anyway I posted a question about the pitch, I demand answers!
I don't have any idea how to respond to "I'm not sure about the board, can anyone shed some light?".. what do you want to know?
The board is thick board game board, folds in the middle, the hexes are used for movement, the numbers on each side track turns played and current score... the 123 on each side is the injured/foul bench, the solid colour hexes are the goals, and the glowy hexes in front of them are the strike zones where you can attempt to score from.
@Black Nexus: Was answering a question focused on "how many on the pitch?". For basic games that is 6 + 2 subs, although I've added an extra piece that mentions up to 14 for league and exhibition play... didn't have time to look through the advanced rules on an initial read-though.
Putting a different spin on the above, one could say that Mantic is basically holding the game hostage: either we donate enough money to make it actually worth $80 or it will suck and it will be our fault.
That is a peculiar logic.
You are aware that the majority of projects on Kickstarter fail to meet their goals. Are your responsible for their failures because you didn't fund?
If Mantic (or anyone else) puts an offer on the site that doesn't seem worth your money, don't fund it. How can it be your fault?
What I meant to say is that Mantic is trying to shift the blame for a sub-par product.
I was trying to remember what came in the boxed core game - the plastics, rather than the metal boxes. I always supplemented the boxed sets with a few blisters and converted more players from WHFB back in the day. I got my 3rd edition of BB when it came out in the coffin box, with the card sets rather than the skinny box reprints later on, and those figures have been scattered to the four winds, so it's been quite awhile.
The original Blood Bowl box set (2nd Ed) came with mono-pose plastic humans and orcs, can't remember how many offhand. Positions were inicaed by colored plastic rings on the bases. The game also came with a cool styrofoam pitch.
The 3rd Ed box set came with 12 Humans and 12 Orcs, with a different sculpt for each position - Blitzer, Thrower, Lineman, and Catcher (humans) and Black Orc Blocker (Orcs). Those particular minis were never available for sale separately, AFAIK, so it wasn't possible to have a full plastic team without trading bits. You needed 2 extra Blitzers and 2 extra blockers/catchers for each team (plus a few linemen) to be able to field a full roster.
The 3rd Ed metal teams were usually 11 figures, and for a long time there was no way to fill out positions without buying a 2nd metal box. Blisters only contained Star Players, except for the Chaos Dwarf team, which was only available in blisters (but, oddly, was the cheapest team to get the full roster, because you didn't have to buy a bunch of unnecessary figures). Not all star players or positions were available, either.
It wasn't until after BB was relegated to the Specialist Games ghetto that GW started making it possible to buy a full team without buying 2 metal boxes.
lord_blackfang wrote: What I meant to say is that Mantic is trying to shift the blame for a sub-par product.
Not really seeing that anywhere? They present a kickstarter with very clear explanations of what is in the box. If you don't like it you don't support it.
Very far from shifting blame, hell just coz you don't think it is great value doesn't mean other people don't like it or aren't willing to support it as is.
What I meant to say is that Mantic is trying to shift the blame for a sub-par product.
and what exactly do you think is above-par?
DreadBall is quality.
Any chance of being able to keep this thing on topic? I hate to bring this up but they've just like, passed through a stretch goal... might be news in a thread about you know, the DreadBall kickstarter.
@ scarletsquig, no worries, was just saying cause it's slightly misleading.
I was trying to remember what came in the boxed core game - the plastics, rather than the metal boxes. I always supplemented the boxed sets with a few blisters and converted more players from WHFB back in the day. I got my 3rd edition of BB when it came out in the coffin box, with the card sets rather than the skinny box reprints later on, and those figures have been scattered to the four winds, so it's been quite awhile.
The original Blood Bowl box set (2nd Ed) came with mono-pose plastic humans and orcs, can't remember how many offhand. Positions were inicaed by colored plastic rings on the bases. The game also came with a cool styrofoam pitch.
The 3rd Ed box set came with 12 Humans and 12 Orcs, with a different sculpt for each position - Blitzer, Thrower, Lineman, and Catcher (humans) and Black Orc Blocker (Orcs). Those particular minis were never available for sale separately, AFAIK, so it wasn't possible to have a full plastic team without trading bits. You needed 2 extra Blitzers and 2 extra blockers/catchers for each team (plus a few linemen) to be able to field a full roster.
The 3rd Ed metal teams were usually 11 figures, and for a long time there was no way to fill out positions without buying a 2nd metal box. Blisters only contained Star Players, except for the Chaos Dwarf team, which was only available in blisters (but, oddly, was the cheapest team to get the full roster, because you didn't have to buy a bunch of unnecessary figures). Not all star players or positions were available, either.
It wasn't until after BB was relegated to the Specialist Games ghetto that GW started making it possible to buy a full team without buying 2 metal boxes.
That all sounds right. I got 2nd Edition for Christmas one year, and spent the day (or one of the days after) playing with a friend. 3rd Ed came much later, and my Orc team was made up of the plastics, plus some of the original metal BB figures that I still had, then the plastic plus some WHFB figures with cut-down SM shoulderpads, then I got the metal box and started proxying a few of those in for the plastics as I got them painted, and finally some of the newer WHFB/40k Plastics in combos.
My Chaos Dwarves just had some WHFB figures press-ganged into the team.
Even if you aren't backing this kickstarter, you still get the 4 free minis.
...that is, in any boxed set of dreadball.
not just everyone, no sir
Automatically Appended Next Post:
$75,000 – Gorim Ironstone and the Midgard Delvers!
This goal is all about the Forge Fathers.
Not only will we add two Forge Father Midgard Delver players to Jack and an additional two players to Striker! but, if we pass this goal, we’ll also be able to create Gorim Ironstone – a Forge Father MVP – and unlock it on the chart!
so no RK-esque silly "unlock something we will make anyway" stretches - you get actual value with this one. good one, mantic!
so no RK-esque silly "unlock something we will make anyway" stretches - you get actual value with this one. good one, mantic!
mmm but they are unlocking something they are going to make anyway.
from the retail list
NYA MGE DBF11-1 DB Midgard Delvers $24.99
NYA MGE DBF70-1 DB Forge Father MVP $9.99
Their update is a little unclear so they have clarified Jack level will have 2 Midguard players added to it for free, Striker will have 2 extra Midguard players added to the 8 already in the team they get plus they get the MVP as well.
I'm backing both Dreadball and Relic Knights in case anyone thinks I'm siding with one or the other
Same for the Veer-myn Team and MVP, as well as the Gobbo and Human MVP. Stuff is done.
NYA MGE DBF11-1 DB Midgard Delvers $24.99
NYA MGE DBF70-1 DB Forge Father MVP $9.99
NYA MGE DBH11-1 DB Trontek 29er's $24.99
NYA MGE DBH70-1 DB Human MVP $9.99
NYA MGE DBM01-1 Dreadball Futuristic Sports Game $79.99
NYA MGE DBO11-1 DB Greenmoon Smackers $24.99
NYA MGE DBO70-1 DB Goblin MVP $9.99
NYA MGE DBV11-1 DB Skittersneak Stealers $24.99
NYA MGE DBV70-1 DB Veer-myn MVP
To be fair, they've stated in the KS comments right from the start that the Forgefather and Veermyn teams are already going to get sculpted, even if the stretch goals for them aren't met.
The stretch goals are more about giving away the stuff for free rather than getting it made.
2 extra free minis + free character that normally sells for $10 isn't all that bad for a small $15k stretch goal.
The Human and Goblin MVPs have been unlocked right from the start, and included in the initial pledge levels.
The KoW Kickstarter started with a whole bunch of stuff that Mantic was going to do anyway as well, the Ogres and Werewolves were concepted and planned for production regardless of what happened in the Kickstarter. In 2-3 days time we'll be past the "already planned" stuff, have it added to the pledges for free, and get stuck into the juicy stuff like the 4 other MVPs which aren't on the retailer list, and the 4 extra teams that Mantic wants to make.
Wouldn't be surprised to see this end with around 90 minis total for the striker level, (8x10 mini teams + 8 MVPS + ref + trophy). Possibly even more, it all depends on how far it rolls.
with ^^
Regardless whether they have some fake unlocks as part of stretches (and okay, that ref stretch was bad...) we *do* get added value. that MVP would not have been, nor will he be, free with either the base game or that team.
scarletsquig wrote: To be fair, they've stated in the KS comments right from the start that the Forgefather and Veermyn teams are already going to get sculpted, even if the stretch goals for them aren't met.
The stretch goals are more about giving away the stuff for free rather than getting it made.
But that is not what they say:
Mantic wrote:
Not only will we add two Forge Father Midgard Delver players to Jack and an additional two players to Striker! but, if we pass this goal, we’ll also be able to create Gorim Ironstone – a Forge Father MVP – and unlock it on the chart!
I don't get the hate... unless I'm confused, unlocking the MVP means we get him for free with EVERY FF team, right? That's much different than paying 9.99 for him. So people are complaining that Mantic was going to make this figure and sell him, but are now giving him away thanks tot he stretch goal? Derp?
judgedoug wrote: I don't get the hate... unless I'm confused, unlocking the MVP means we get him for free with EVERY FF team, right? That's much different than paying 9.99 for him. So people are complaining that Mantic was going to make this figure and sell him, but are now giving him away thanks tot he stretch goal? Derp?
What hate? I wouldn't be here if I wasn't interested.
But those are two different things.
A) Giving away "free" plastic? I approve
B) Statements like these that good ol' George W. Bush would have called "non-disavowed misstatements". I don't approve so much.
This is a discussion forum, right? If only blind, 100% criticism-free adoration is allowed here, I must have missed the memo.
I like "free" minis as much as the next guy. But ya shouldn't be able to buy servile silence on any and all "non-disavowed misstatements" simply by bribing people away with free plastic (or even hard cash, as it were).
You shall not bear false witness against your fans, who give you money on Kickstarter!!
So far, Mantic's Kickstarters have certainly been pledge-friendly affairs in terms of value and 'free' 'extras', especially once the total is all tallied up!
I suspect that this one will be similarly excellent...
Those Dwarves look great... for Bloodbowl. They look absurd for a futuristic space sport where even the Orks are wearing full-bodied space armor. WHy they don't look like the rest of the forge fathers is beyond me.
I do like Mantic's shift towards Heroscale as none of these are realistic proportions when a fist or a foot is the size of the creature's head. Considering how Warpath models suffer from distorted and incorrect scale issues, maybe they should stick to hero-scale with a slight SD look to them.
LOL on the already slated for retail sales 'rewards'... An appropriate use of KS would have been to 'add new sculpts' to the already existing plastics opposed to using this to backfund the already completed project and basically take pre-orders.
Maybe if my KS donation was helping fund more Orc sculpts so I have a choice beyond the monopose, like a second plastic sprue of alternate poses, it might have value. Sounds like I will wait for retail.
The only 'appropriate' uses for Kickstarter are whatever Kickstarter allows and, more importantly, whatever people choose to approve via voting with their wallets.
It is amazing how many secret Board of Directors for Kickstarter we have here on Dakka Dakka.
nkelsch wrote: LOL on the already slated for retail sales 'rewards'...
That'd have to be in the singular, not plural.
The $75.000 stretch gives you that MVP which *will* retail for an additional $9.99 free in a team either included in your pledge or costing $20.00 instead of $24.99.
also it would seem that the 2 additional players at striker! level are so on top of the regular team and wont be a part of it at retail either - further added value.
all they said is that the team is "unlocked" for purchase via KS - perfectly true, if it'd end at 70000 by what they've said up 'till now you couldn't get the forgefather team via KS yet.
An appropriate use of KS would have been to 'add new sculpts' to the already existing plastics...
Alpharius wrote: The only 'appropriate' uses for Kickstarter are whatever Kickstarter allows and, more importantly, whatever people choose to approve via voting with their wallets.
It is amazing how many secret Board of Directors for Kickstarter we have here on Dakka Dakka.
Because a company can do no wrong? Exxon and BP would have a word with you. I think everyone here knows that Kickstarter allows it. Doesn't preclude people from having an opinion. Hell, 70% of Dakka is filled with all the things GW supposedly does wrong (marketing and customer communication in particular).
Most humans are given with the gift of imagination. They are capable of thinking in "what ifs" and "what should be", even if these diverge from reality. If this ability was lost on you, than that is truly sad indeed. But you shouldn't go-round trying to 1984-gag everyone who dares to voice an opinion.
It just bothers me that they started out with an $80 box with only 16 figs. Makes it super easy to add more figs to the box when you start that low.
Every "miniatures board game" that I can think of comes with more figs than that (Descent, Super Dungeon Explore, and of course the recent Zombiecide and Sedition Wars).
I know people pledged assuming the number would go up- but it just doesn't inspire me when the starting number is so darn low.
Just my $0.02, of course, but imo it's a very valid point. It's easy to add when you start the box with less than you actually intend to put in it, and folks pledge assuming that (as they've said).
So... not my cup of tea, obviously, and I won't belabor the point... but there are other more interesting Kickstarters for my money.
...the alternate poses for certain positions added on on top of the base set, you'd know about if you'd actually follow KS updates before bleating on obessively as to how horrible every KS project not to your every whim is, as usual?
...the alternate poses for certain positions added on on top of the base set, you'd know about if you'd actually follow KS updates before bleating on obessively as to how horrible every KS project not to your every whim is, as usual?
Where did I say the project was horrible? It's evidently well-made and quite attractive.
I am not bothered by the quality of the project. I am bothered by the deliberate deception Mantic uses to obfuscate how this project comes about. Why do they need to hide things? Why do they need to lie to their fans?
Alpharius wrote: The only 'appropriate' uses for Kickstarter are whatever Kickstarter allows and, more importantly, whatever people choose to approve via voting with their wallets.
It is amazing how many secret Board of Directors for Kickstarter we have here on Dakka Dakka.
Because a company can do no wrong? Exxon and BP would have a word with you. I think everyone here knows that Kickstarter allows it. Doesn't preclude people from having an opinion. Hell, 70% of Dakka is filled with all the things GW supposedly does wrong (marketing and customer communication in particular).
Most humans are given with the gift of imagination. They are capable of thinking in "what ifs" and "what should be", even if these diverge from reality. If this ability was lost on you, than that is truly sad indeed. But you shouldn't go-round trying to 1984-gag everyone who dares to voice an opinion.
Not sure if serious, but definitely sure too serious...
You might want to try the pot labeled 'decaf' tomorrow.
RiTides wrote: It just bothers me that they started out with an $80 box with only 16 figs. Makes it super easy to add more figs to the box when you start that low.
Maybe they want to counter their reputation of being a cheap copy of GW
RiTides wrote: It just bothers me that they started out with an $80 box with only 16 figs. Makes it super easy to add more figs to the box when you start that low.
Every "miniatures board game" that I can think of comes with more figs than that (Descent, Super Dungeon Explore, and of course the recent Zombiecide and Sedition Wars).
Though I entirely agree that the starting set of sixteen figures looked more than a little parsimonious compared with the competition, bear in mind that Mantic are a UK company, and that $80 (£50 over here) wouldn't buy you in the UK a copy of an $80 US game like Descent, Dust Tactics or Super Dungeon Explore, all of which retail over here in the vicinity of £75 ($120 to you).
Bearing in mind that Mantic are offering free (or rather inclusive) transatlantic postage - for which CMON without blushing charge $25 - DreadBall should for a US audience be more readily compared with $60 - $70 games like Runebound or Tannhauser, which contain similarly few miniatures. I'm of the opinion that Mantic would have been better-advised to set the game's price in that ballpark, and charged postage on top, which would have avoided these arguments altogether, but hey ho.
Kroothawk wrote: Maybe they want to counter their reputation of being a cheap copy of GW
Perhaps a little unfair, Kroot; the worst that can be said in this instance of Mantic's business direction is that (as with Project Pandora and Dwarf King's Hold) they're exploiting a gap in the market which GW have, for comprehensible business reasons of their own, chosen to leave open. That within the constrains of that direction their designers have resisted the urge to simple clone GW's system style and instead created their own distinct (and, in my opinion at least, impressively elegant one) is indeed something of a bonus.
Something I thought of: if the Vermin are going to be involved, wouldn't it make sense for them to be the "Heel" to the Corp teams' "Face"? It seems like something they could have played with with the model designs.
Perhaps a little unfair, Kroot; the worst that can be said in this instance of Mantic's business direction is that (as with Project Pandora and Dwarf King's Hold) they're exploiting a gap in the market which GW have, for comprehensible business reasons of their own, chosen to leave open. That within the constrains of that direction their designers have resisted the urge to simple clone GW's system style and instead created their own distinct (and, in my opinion at least, impressively elegant one) is indeed something of a bonus.
Again, noone is arguing about (a) the business opportunity of filling this "sports-game" niche, nor (b) the quality of the game that is on offer.
What is discussed is the purposefully deceptive and cynical approach they have taken to this Kickstarter campaign with (a) faux-stretch-goals that are already slotted for release, (b) blatant lies in the face of their Kickstarter supporters of what the backers "input" and "contribution" to the production truly is (don't forget, alot of KS-dynamic comes from this warm "part-of-the-making"-feeling) and (c) deliberate low-balling of the "original" game just to add "free" stuff onto it through the aforementioned "faux-stretch-goals" (yes, comparable games such as, for example, Blood Bowl, come with 24 miniatures from the box, I can only assume that the "true" DreadBall-release is designed to be around 24 as well).
It's not a question of business. Noone doubts Mantic's business sense.
It's not a question of craftsmanship. The game looks good.
It's a question of character and how Mantic chooses to engage their fans and customers that is worrying people.
Perhaps a little unfair, Kroot; the worst that can be said in this instance of Mantic's business direction is that (as with Project Pandora and Dwarf King's Hold) they're exploiting a gap in the market which GW have, for comprehensible business reasons of their own, chosen to leave open. That within the constrains of that direction their designers have resisted the urge to simple clone GW's system style and instead created their own distinct (and, in my opinion at least, impressively elegant one) is indeed something of a bonus.
Again, noone is arguing about (a) the business opportunity of filling this "sports-game" niche, nor (b) the quality of the game that is on offer.
What is discussed is the purposefully deceptive and cynical approach they have taken to this Kickstarter campaign with (a) faux-stretch-goals that are already slotted for release, (b) blatant lies in the face of their Kickstarter supporters of what the backers "input" and "contribution" to the production truly is (don't forget, alot of KS-dynamic comes from this warm "part-of-the-making"-feeling) and (c) deliberate low-balling of the "original" game just to add "free" stuff onto it through the aforementioned "faux-stretch-goals" (yes, comparable games such as, for example, Blood Bowl, come with 24 miniatures from the box, I can only assume that the "true" DreadBall-release is designed to be around 24 as well).
It's not a question of business. Noone doubts Mantic's business sense.
It's not a question of craftsmanship. The game looks good.
It's a question of character and how Mantic chooses to engage their fans and customers that is worrying people.
I sound like a bit of a parrot by now.
But i believe this isnt an issue of "are we going to release this" but a question of "when can we afford to release this"
TO my mind, mantic has a list of everything they want to make to support this game. At the moment they can tool for X without any help, but if they get preorder funds from a kickstarter campaign they can get x + y + z all ready for the launch of the game, rather than leaking out in expansions years from now.
Its the same with roboref lady. Originally they could only afford to sell her seperately as a metal mini, but with the kickstarter she will be plastic and in the box.
Seems to me that they have simplified their need for faster tooling with the word "create" and that has created some anger. But i dont feel ripped off or anything. Mo money Mo boxset minis.
But i believe this isnt an issue of "are we going to release this" but a question of "when can we afford to release this"
TO my mind, mantic has a list of everything they want to make to support this game. At the moment they can tool for X without any help, but if they get preorder funds from a kickstarter campaign they can get x + y + z all ready for the launch of the game, rather than leaking out in expansions years from now.
Its the same with roboref lady. Originally they could only afford to sell her seperately as a metal mini, but with the kickstarter she will be plastic and in the box.
Seems to me that they have simplified their need for faster tooling with the word "create" and that has created some anger. But i dont feel ripped off or anything. Mo money Mo boxset minis.
If that is the case, they could just say that this is how it is. But that's not what they are doing. If that is their true motivation, fine. But why do they then choose to deceive their backers by claiming otherwise, as they clearly did with the Dwarf MVP.
if we pass this goal, we’ll also create Gorim Ironstone
It's great to see people still giving them the benefit of a doubt. But me, once I've been lied to, I cannot stop that nagging voice in my head that keeps asking what else from what they are saying is perhaps also a lie.
Perhaps a little unfair, Kroot; the worst that can be said in this instance of Mantic's business direction is that (as with Project Pandora and Dwarf King's Hold) they're exploiting a gap in the market which GW have, for comprehensible business reasons of their own, chosen to leave open. That within the constrains of that direction their designers have resisted the urge to simple clone GW's system style and instead created their own distinct (and, in my opinion at least, impressively elegant one) is indeed something of a bonus.
Again, noone is arguing about (a) the business opportunity of filling this "sports-game" niche, nor (b) the quality of the game that is on offer.
What is discussed is the purposefully deceptive and cynical approach they have taken to this Kickstarter campaign with (a) faux-stretch-goals that are already slotted for release, (b) blatant lies in the face of their Kickstarter supporters of what the backers "input" and "contribution" to the production truly is (don't forget, alot of KS-dynamic comes from this warm "part-of-the-making"-feeling) and (c) deliberate low-balling of the "original" game just to add "free" stuff onto it through the aforementioned "faux-stretch-goals" (yes, comparable games such as, for example, Blood Bowl, come with 24 miniatures from the box, I can only assume that the "true" DreadBall-release is designed to be around 24 as well).
It's not a question of business. Noone doubts Mantic's business sense. It's not a question of craftsmanship. The game looks good.
It's a question of character and how Mantic chooses to engage their fans and customers that is worrying people.
Firstly, that's precisely the opinion Kroot expressed, and thus that with which the text you quoted was respectfully disagreeing.
Secondly, you're making a large assumption as to Mantic's intentions and honesty in expressing them. The first paragraph of my post indeed addressed with examples your accusation of "deliberate low-balling"; even though I'd consider £50/$80 an optimistic price point for the "plain" DreadBall set, it's far from unrealistic once you consider that £50 in the UK does not in general buy a board game containing a hefty number of plastic miniatures. Had Mantic not gone down the Kickstarter route, I anticipate that DreadBall would have gone on sale somewhere in the area of $60/£40, and been accompanied on Mantic's website with a set of bundled deals, just as Warpath was. There are aspects of mummery and sleight-of-hand in both strategies, but I really don't consider one option less honest than the other; it's simply that one is more familiar.
Edit: And in this instance, Blood Bowl really isn't a very good comparison; it's a legacy product on which GW long ago recouped their investment, the production values of which (static Gary Morley sculpts, retina-searingly bright artwork, comically ill-balanced supplementary rules, and clumsy unintegrated card-based rules spoiling an otherwise elegant basic system) would preclude charging any more for it, regardless of the number of miniatures in the box.
if we pass this goal, we’ll also create Gorim Ironstone
It's great to see people still giving them the benefit of a doubt. But me, once I've been lied to, I cannot stop that nagging voice in my head that keeps asking what else from what they are saying is perhaps also a lie.
Might be a unique ailment I suffer from.
You're not paranoid! Mantic IS trying to get you.
It seems to me, that they are/were pretty optimistic of achieving these stretch-goals & planned lot of stuff they'd like to do beforehand.
I'm pretty sure they don't have molds ready to pump-out a legion of Gorim Ironstone tomorrow.
I'm pretty sure they have pre-planned enough, that they can be made and released on time for december, (?) if/when the goal is reached.
However, you've certainly made your point, and continuing to beat that particular drum over and over again can eventually be considered off topic, spam and/or trolling.
What if - shock horror - the distributor list is wrong! how about that? Have Mantic said what they are actually releasing? No. Remember that Distributor leak last year before Warpath? The products were right but the pricing was ridiculously off. Consider the fact that it might actually be wrong.
Given the fact the RefBot has a model and is fully painted, do you not think if they actually had the model, they'd show it off, huh? They don't have the alt sculpts, we've helped them do that. Forge Father team, they've shown off painted models for - Gorim Ironstone, they've got a piece of concept art. Were they going to create it anyway? Possibly, but they've not created it yet.
Jake Thornton, designer for Dreadball, wrote a nice article about it and Blood Bowl.
A quick snippet:
"It was obvious from the outset that whatever DreadBall was or was not, it would be compared to GW’s Blood Bowl. Whether this was going to be favourable or not depended on the individual, but compared it would certainly be. This is exactly what is happening now, and so I would like to take a few moments to discuss the similarities and differences from my point of view as designer, and explain my decisions and talk a bit about where the concept for DB came from."
Jake Thornton, designer for Dreadball, wrote a nice article about it and Blood Bowl.
A quick snippet:
"It was obvious from the outset that whatever DreadBall was or was not, it would be compared to GW’s Blood Bowl. Whether this was going to be favourable or not depended on the individual, but compared it would certainly be. This is exactly what is happening now, and so I would like to take a few moments to discuss the similarities and differences from my point of view as designer, and explain my decisions and talk a bit about where the concept for DB came from."
Actually, that article is great. I have a lot of respect for the designer now and really like the angle because I totally agree with his statement:
You cannot compete with nostalgia, so attempting to do a better version of BB (ie fantasy American football) was inevitably doomed to failure. Setting out to produce a failure is stupid, and as a I try not to be stupid** I wanted to avoid this.
Makes the game much more appealing and I have hope for the rules which was going to be my big deal-breaker. I am going to Striker this and see how it goes.
Zweischneid wrote: (a) faux-stretch-goals that are already slotted for release,
Everyone who starts a kickstarter project believes in their product. They all plan for the release of the product and possible related additional products. If stretch goals don't cover an expected release, that doesn't mean it magically doesn't happen. It may still get funded by a bank loan or paid for by revenues from the sale of the core product.
There's nothing about stretch goals that says that they will only be created if the Kickstarter hits a certain amount. They are simply things that will be created *for sure* if the amount is hit. It is 100% irrelevant whether or not the project would get made with some other means of funding. It does not make them "faux" stretch goals at all. It just means that they are made part of the Kickstarter funding rather than needing money from another source.
(b) blatant lies in the face of their Kickstarter supporters of what the backers "input" and "contribution" to the production truly is (don't forget, alot of KS-dynamic comes from this warm "part-of-the-making"-feeling) and
Can you quote me someone from mantic on this? You say "blatant lies" so that means someone said something. Then demonstrate that it is false. Then demonstrate it was knowingly made as a false statement with the intent to deceive.
(c) deliberate low-balling of the "original" game just to add "free" stuff onto it through the aforementioned "faux-stretch-goals" (yes, comparable games such as, for example, Blood Bowl, come with 24 miniatures from the box, I can only assume that the "true" DreadBall-release is designed to be around 24 as well).
Or maybe Mantic is playing it safe here. What if they were wrong about the demand for a sci-fi sports miniature game? What if it only barely funded? Then they'd probably really, really appreciate that everyone would be expecting a less capital intensive project, wouldn't they?
If that is the case, they could just say that this is how it is. But that's not what they are doing. If that is their true motivation, fine. But why do they then choose to deceive their backers by claiming otherwise, as they clearly did with the Dwarf MVP.
if we pass this goal, we’ll also create Gorim Ironstone
It's great to see people still giving them the benefit of a doubt. But me, once I've been lied to, I cannot stop that nagging voice in my head that keeps asking what else from what they are saying is perhaps also a lie.
Might be a unique ailment I suffer from.
What about that statement is a lie? If they meet the goal, they'll make the miniature. If they don't pass the goal, they may allocate some funding from another source and still make the miniature.
Nothing about Kickstarter precludes funding related projects from other sources of capital.
I think you're perceiving this as deceptive because you have ideas in your head about how companies raise capital and plan for projects that aren't related to reality.
nkelsch wrote: Makes the game much more appealing and I have hope for the rules which was going to be my big deal-breaker. I am going to Striker this and see how it goes.
I agree. I was already backing but that article actually made me that much more excited to try it out. I feel I'll get a lot of good game sessions out of it now.
Jake's blog is well worth following; he has some interesting thoughts to share about wargaming, and is remarkably willing to be forthright about what he does and doesn't like.
$75k goal, reached, Veer-myn are up next, exactly the same deal as the forgefathers - free minis and free MVP.
There's currently 9 extra minis at the Striker level, and the next stretch goal will raise that to 12.
After this one, things should get interesting, since we'll be moving into entirely new completely unplanned-for stuff.
Current rumours/ hints are:
- DreadBall Xtreme expansion (an "underground" version of the game*).
- 4 extra MVPs (one tentacle monster**).
- 4 new teams (female corporation).
- Hex Bases
- 3d pitch
* Using the "produced by political or social radicals or nonconformists" definition of "underground", there - don't start going off on one about Dungeonbowl. :p
** His name is "John". Dakka-exclusive scarletsquig leak right there! Shocking!
And, add another $150 to the pledge. Seems like a good number. I just hope they don't manage to convince me to up it to $230 from awesome BoGo offers like KoW did...crap. Lol.
Black Nexus wrote: I'm sure there'll be a lot of people wanting to add an all-female team and a 3D pitch if the rumours are true.
I'd love to get an all female team, and a 3D pitch sounds cool too. I know my friends will be more likely to join me in the game if there are more teams to choose from.
English Assassin wrote: Jake's blog is well worth following; he has some interesting thoughts to share about wargaming, and is remarkably willing to be forthright about what he does and doesn't like.
Lex Major wrote:Since last week my interest was piqued by this upstard kid on kickstarter, and my fellow BB-leaguer friends and I have been discussing this quite a bit, as you would the new kid on the block with the strange orange hair. Since it's bound to bring some comparison with the Great Old One that is Blood Bowl, I think I just might jump right in with my (uncalled for) observations. I played for many years, and until just recently I've been playing in a BB 7's league (shorter games) with friends.
First, why I think this has a real shot at being the Heir to the Blood Bowl throne
The real deal
Let's be clear: while Dreadball is set in the future and bla bla bla, it's certainly the most serious contender we've ever seen for a "the Blood Bowl of the 21st century". It claims to have everything that made BB a success: Lots of teams with differenty styles, players with variable skills, League play and lots of violence. It's even got some "Claim to fame" with a designer that played a role in the very first iterations of our beloved fantasy sports game. So it starts very well indeed, and I believe Mantic's story, I believe they can deliver on this thing to be a great game. I believe it so well in fact that I'll pledge on their Kickstarter (remember: there is no guarantee of delivery at all anywhere on Kickstarter).
Modern Rules for a Modern Game
Let's face it, Blood Bowl rules have not aged very well, not well at all. Even with the community's efforts, it's an 80's game and it shows. It takes a huge effort to teach the game to newcomers, and explaining the various pick-up and catch modifiers (why the default +1 for pickup and Dodge?) has been painful for me for a while now. And it takes SO. MUCH. FREAKING. TIME. to play a game... there is no chance to do two of them in one night, and you almost have to take vacations if you plan on doing tournaments. This is really hard to manage with family life and it's why we switched to BB7 (good but not as fun as original).
But DreadBall seemed to have caught on this... target playing time is about right (1h), much of what slows down the game has been toned down (drives, scoring and setup, etc.), and I gather from the other thread that mechanics will be streamlined. I like that, welcome to 2012.
Corporate Support
A new release once in a while is a good way to keep interest. And official Erratas and Rulings. And some updates to the rules and team statistics should things become very broken or one-sided. To have an established company tackle this is a huge relief for me... we've all felt a bit let down by GW's abandonment of BB. I'm hoping for this to be a financial success for them to be able to support this "on the long run". Community managers cost a lot!
Then, a few things I know some BB fans will be very vocal but that I'm finding very hard to get offended about
Same ol' fantasy stuff
Yeah, it's elves and dwarves in space. Who cares, really... if Mantic is smart (and they seem to be), they'll throw in some squid-like race at some point to create a distinct feel for the game, but as long as the playing style vary greatly from one team to another, I'm quite content to see the familiar green faces and their friends. A bit more of concern to me is the fact that the usual stereotypes seem to persevere a lot (humans are average, orcs brutal, elves pass, dwarves tough but slow and Skav...ratmen fast and fragile). Why not fast and agile humans, or brutal kung-fu elves, or making dwavers masters of the "fast running plays"?
Affordable
It's nice for it to be affordable, but to be honest the problem with Blood Bowl was more with its availability and support than its price. Even 50$ for a team that lasts you a year is not that much for us rich family guys with lucrative jobs.
... But it's not Blood Bowl!
Yeah, I know.... get over it So there's an "active" referee, the grid is hexagonal and it's really a weird new fictional sport that has no equivalent on TV. So what... if it delivers on fast and fun gameplay, on last-minute "OMG I just made that GFI" moments, it'll be just fine.
Last, some topics where the jury is still out and that could go either way
The place of Randomness
Blood Bowl has this nice place for randomness, in that it's so uniformely everywhere that managing it becomes part of the game. From what I've read yet on Dreadball I'm really not sure about the event cards (I'm afraid it'll become like Monopoly cards .."Oh, go to jail again?"). If they dose this just right it could become fantastic (Think Catan Event Cards), but the devil really is in the details.
Community
Will the community kick-off just right and become as engaged and active as BB's? Who knows? If it does happen (and I'll try to be somewhere near that ), kinks and details will be much easier to smooth for Mantic as they'll have access to instant feedback to get the game better. If things go well and we see a "love story" blossom between Mantic and the Fans, I just know there will always be a layer of hardcore fans so that it will always be worthwhile for Mantic to put something new on the market... fans of these sports games are just THAT loyal
Playtest and balance
BB never really was designed to be balanced (as Halfling fans will attest), but at the end of the day, it did not really matter, now did it? Over the years we learned exactly which teams performed better and what approach works best(Hi ClaPOMB adepts!). Still, some measure of balance is needed for everyone to enjoy a "fair" game, and it's very difficult and long to do. Will Mantic be able to "measure twice, cut once" on rule changes and update to keep the game engaging? Sure hope so.
Sense of humor
Gritty sci-fi just doesn't rhyme with sense of humor by default. We'll have to see how this plays out, but there was always a lighthearted fun to be had with BloodBowl when your Troll eats your Star Goblin or when something goes wrong with the Explosive Rune you got as an Inducement. That's without Bob and Jim who always could throw a bit of humor around. Mantic will have to find their niche: too serious and we'll end up with a drab game, too funky and it'll become Clown Ball.
and last but not least:
Is this game fun?
Kinda matters, doesn't it?
Conclusion
Wow... that turned out to be longish. Sorry about that, but I'll sum up saying I'm just glad someone is picking up the money GW seem to be leaving on the table, and if they do a good job out of it I think they've just won themselves some loyal fanbase for quite a while!
Interesting read.
My thoughts on the Kickstarter in General.
1.) Looks like it will be a fun game.
2.) I personally find it a bit expensive for the contents
3.) At this price point for the contents, I'm currently just waiting for the regular realse, and I'll scoop it up for 25% off.
4.) It's obvious that all the stuff was ready before hand.
5,) kickstarter funding is a no brainer way of getting free advertising, buillding a day 1 communuty for the game, and pre-order vehicle to secure funding for the initial run.
1.) Looks like it will be a fun game.
2.) I personally find it a bit expensive for the contents
3.) At this price point for the contents, I'm currently just waiting for the regular realse, and I'll scoop it up for 25% off.
4.) It's obvious that all the stuff was ready before hand.
5,) kickstarter funding is a no brainer way of getting free advertising, buillding a day 1 communuty for the game, and pre-order vehicle to secure funding for the initial run.
1. I agree. Especially love the not resetting after a point is scored.
2. Right now, I might agree with you. However, there have already been several models added to the base game, and Mantic have hinted at more things, such as a 3D playing field. I think it will be a great value by the end of all this.
3. And you might still end up paying more and getting less.
4. Why the frig would it not be. In fact, they have said several times that the first 4 teams (at least) were planned, as well as the referee figure. They would be complete idiots to bring out a new game with 2 teams and NOT plan ahead. I really don't understand the bile at this. The Kickstarter has already allowed them to do the referee in plastic and include it in all the base games, as well as add several new sculpts to the teams. Referee would have been done anyway, but separately and in metal. Extra poses for the teams seem to be entirely a result of the Kickstarter.
5. I agree. And I don't know if you think that is a bad thing. I don't.
I, for one, am looking forward to the new stuff that they do as stretch goals. Planned ahead or not...
No bile. Was just a list of thoughts on variuos matters brought up in this thread.
I really do hope this turns out like the Kings of War Kickstarter and lots more goodies get thrown in, and I will gladly throw in if it does, but right now it's pay full retail and get an extra 2 star players and 4 plastic guys. I don't use star players when I play Bloodbowl and I don't know enough about the game to decide now if it's worth ponying up $150 just to have them included.
I really hope this game succeeds and the kickstarter does really well and they toss more stuff in to sweeten the deal. Right now it's just not sweet enough for my taste.
With any luck it will turn out like the Bones or Zombicide kickstarters and go from okay to "can't miss"
The KoW Kickstarter started with a whole bunch of stuff that Mantic was going to do anyway as well, the Ogres and Werewolves were concepted and planned for production regardless of what happened in the Kickstarter.
The KoW kickstarter wasn't really "about" anything. It was an unfocused mess of a campaign that took everyone by surprise.and Ronnie & co scrambled to keep apace. It was a very different beast to this one, which is very much a new, polished, planned campaign. I'd go so far as to say that the only thing this and the KoW campaign have in common ae the fact that the same people happen to be running it.
Wouldn't be surprised to see this end with around 90 minis total for the striker level, (8x10 mini teams + 8 MVPS + ref + trophy). Possibly even more, it all depends on how far it rolls.
I hope so. It's still got a month, after all. They certainly haven't hit any kind of critical mass of value yet though. I'd say it risks having the same kind of slowdown that Relic Knights had, which led to a lot of people dropping out. Making additional teams "free" pack-ins would certainly help, as opposed to having them as add-ons. We do know they have another, or a different board planned though.
And this is bad because what, you might actually have an opponent to play against?
Who said this was a bad thing? Just because I (or anyone else) aren't rabid "Mantic can do no wrong" fanbois. doesn't mean we don't like Mantic or aren't going in on the Kickstarter. (well, except Kroot). It's not a binary discussion where everything is either rotten or peachy-keen. It's possible to like or support a concept while still remaining critical or analysing choices, decisions or statements.
I'll grant that it's easy to fall into that trap with "I HATE YOU AND EVERYTHING THAT YOU STAND FOR." -type criticisms, such as those made by Kroothawk. Replies can then easily fall into the opposite extreme, especially when being posted by those who feel passionately for a company/project/concept. The best stance to take in any argument is a reasonable one, recognising that almost everything has good points and bad, and conceding when the other side has a good point as well as the positive points in whatever it is being argued about.
Wholly positive or wholly negative arguments and attitudes often don't really help any healthy discussion, as they tend to polarise those who don't feel exactly the same way, and discussions then devole into (virtual or real) shouting maches where everything the other guy says MUST BE WRONG DAMMIT.
RiTides wrote: It just bothers me that they started out with an $80 box with only 16 figs. Makes it super easy to add more figs to the box when you start that low.
Every "miniatures board game" that I can think of comes with more figs than that (Descent, Super Dungeon Explore, and of course the recent Zombiecide and Sedition Wars).
Though I entirely agree that the starting set of sixteen figures looked more than a little parsimonious compared with the competition, bear in mind that Mantic are a UK company, and that $80 (£50 over here) wouldn't buy you in the UK a copy of an $80 US game like Descent, Dust Tactics or Super Dungeon Explore, all of which retail over here in the vicinity of £75 ($120 to you).
Why do people post misinformation when the actual details are so easy to find? SDE is the only one of the three games you quoted that goes for that amount. I'd suggest it's also at least in part due to it being because despite being based in the US, FFG have proper UK distribution channels, while CMON has to bundle up a containerload of stuff, as we've seen with their KS projects. Mantic would appear to hopefully have good UK distribution, as they're a UK-based company.
Descent 2nd Edition - £59.99 before retailer discount.
Dust Tactics Revised - £59.99 before retailer discount.
Super Dungeon Explore - £74.99before retailer discount.
I'd hope for Mantic's sake that they do load up the boxed set a bit more, as a perception of poor value in terms of miniature count, combined with the average component qualty from their previous outings (poor reputation from the non-hardcore punter - which is what we here on Dakka, Quirkworthy, BGG etc are) doesn't exactly set them up for runaway success.
adamsouza> Given the RefBot is now listed on there as wel, my guess is the model count on the image now includes the two alternative sculpts that were the third stretch goal. The description on the page hasn't been updated to keep up.
The description lists them as 8 man teams, up from the original 6, but the graphic now says and shows 10 man teams.
Are they getting ahead of themselves, or did I miss an update or something ?
It's almost as if they're playing silly buggers and have lost track of themselves.
Anyway they need to add allot more before im willing to back rather than wait for a discounted box, back this for $150 odd isn't making hat much sense to me at the moment. I must be over that initial Kickstarter buzz that saw me back everything for the first month!
Can people bother to read the OP and the list of stretch goals?
That graphic is what all copies of the boxed game contain now, updated to include the additions from the $40k and $60k stretch goals. There is no "deceit", there is no "silly buggers", they're just showing people what is currently included in the game, just as Reaper updated their Vampire level pledge to show the new minis added to it... same goes for every single other KS that has had a visual guide to what you get.
As far as I can tell, the "original" plan for DreadBall was for the ref to be metal instead of plastic, and the 4 extra alternate sculpts definitely were not, under any circumstance "going to be included anyway".
In the copy of the rules I have, right in front of me, right now, it mentions absolutely nothing about there being 10 players in the box, it refers to 8 players as being the number you get in the starting teams in the box constantly throughout, to the point where I didn't notice the fact that you could use up to 14 players when initially answering questions about team size for this game.
Conspiracy theory all you like, but you're not entirely right on this, and real value definitely is being adding to the core box by increasing the mini count by 20% and the sculpt variety by 66%.
Fact of the matter is that the contents of the box are totally subject to how much money Mantic has, which is entirely subject to how much cash it raises from this kickstarter. So, we're going to see the contents change.
More free stuff will be added to that image, and more people on Dakka will continue to complain that "it was going to be in the box anyway, the liars!", completely ignoring the entirely of posts such as this one.
Plans from any given company change based on how much capital that company has access to. Shock Horror!
Plastic miniature production is extremely expensive if making a small print run, but really cheap on large print runs (moulds cost tens of thousands, materials costs are cents per mini, lower than what it costs to pack them) - in case you've had your head buried under a rock for the last month, the Reaper KS was a very good example of this.
I bet if the KS hits $1million and the basic box set ends up with 50 minis in it, someone on Dakka will still be whining about "mantic are liars, they were going to do this anyway!".
I guess I should be grateful that we're having a slightly less amoebic level of debate than the usual "Mantic stole the colour green from GW, the elves suck lol" that is typical filler for half of the threads about them.
Also, there's absolutely nothing wrong with waiting until the game goes on general sale, or waiting until the last minute to pledge.. complaining that it isn't enough of a good deal already after only 4 days is kinda like stating the obvious.
That is what most people do with most kickstarters, they wait until the last 2-3 days before backing to see if the freebies have reached the point where they're interested.
One could present the argument that it might actually be in their favour to back something early, to lend more momentum to the kickstarter.. but for whatever reason, that simply doesn't happen, and the vast bulk of people will not touch the pledge button until the last second.
I bet if the KS hits $1million and the basic box set ends up with 50 minis in it, someone on Dakka will still be whining about "mantic are liars, they were going to do this anyway!".
.
Sorry to tell you, but this "whining" didn't just come from anywhere.
There is a list of product scheduled for release, which includes the Veer-Myn and Forgefather MVP. They already asked their distributers to make room on the shelves for those.
Yet in the Kickstarter they explicitly said they will only make them if they reach stretch goal x.
Those two observations are in direct contradiction of each other, so the assumption that they are "false" stretch goals designed to "delude" backers into having more of an impact into creating the game than they otherwise would, seems a likely conclusion.
Likewise for the Ref. You keep harping on about a supposed metal ref, but there is no evidence for that. And be extrapolating from the "lies" they told about the Veer-Myn MVP and Forgefather MVP, it seems no implausible to assume that the same thing went down for the Ref (and there was no separate metal-Ref on the initial release list).
And if the Ref was a ruse, than by implication, the variant sculpts would be too if they were (as you claim) only enabled by the Ref-gone-plastic.
Once again, if you just dismiss this as whining, you are doing both yourself and Mantic a great disservice. Every complaint here is voiced by people genuinly interested in the game on principle. Bones, etc.. all have their own complaints to deal with, I am sure. But this is a troubling observation by fans about Mantic and Mantic in particular.
If you do have such a good line to Mantic, you would do both them and their fans a great service by a) not assisting them in a half-hearted cover-up and b) recommend them to clarify the issue in an open, public and transparent way.
The "GW-example" shows that "secrecy" and taking your very own fans and customers for fools is usually not well recieved.
By making a concious statement of transparency and by opening all their books to their Kickstarter fans and holding nothing back, this Kickstarter would quickly be transformed from the "cynical" pre-order pitch it is now into a genuinely shared "we-make-this-project-reality-together" sort of experience that make the best and most successful Kickstarters out there go truly viral and truly earn their organisers millions.
Yeah thats the problem with the so called fanantics/freelance marketers that these companies use, in that they're just a bit too close to the project. So no discussion, sorry I meant whining, Just be pleased you are getting "free" stuff.
What a turn off they are and increasingly noticeable on allot of Kickstarter projects.
Yet in the Kickstarter they explicitly said they will only make them if they reach stretch goal x.
No they have not.
I don't see the word "only" anywhere. Or any other language that states that it's kickstarter or nothing for these miniatures. Kickstarter does not have an exclusivity contract that says that if you don't get something funded, you can never get money from somewhere else and make it. That would be stupid.
If they hit the stretch goal, they'll make the MVPs. As part of the Kickstarter project. And the backers will get it. If they don't, it won't be part of the Kickstarter. They may find the money somewhere else and still make it. They may even have backup plans to make sure the product they want to make gets made even if the Kickstarter fails.
There is no deception going on here except your self-deception.
Okay, so now I'm a liar, and I don't have a rulebook that lists 8 players as the starting teams that you get in the box in front of me right now, as I'm typing this?
Magic, got it.
Thanks for clearing that up.
There is a list of product scheduled for release
Retailer lists are subject to change. I have seen loads of these from Mantic over the past 2 years, and *loads of times* they list products which are either:
- Not released at all later.
- Named incorrectly.
- Priced incorrecty
- Release date is listed incorrectly.
You are clinging to that list like it is carved in stone, when it really isn't. This has already been mentioned earlier in the thread.
By making a concious statement of transparency and by opening all their books to their Kickstarter fans
Again, with this bitterness about the .pdf not being posted up for free. Why do all of the posters making a big deal about "Mantic are liars" in this thread always add a suffix complaining about this?
I'd love to post some screens of the rulebook showing "8 players in the starting teams" to prove that I'm not under the direct mind control of the evil Manticorp via the aerials on their moonbase, but I'm starting to feel like that that would be about as productive as a hippo trying to make friends with a swarm of pirana, so I'll bid you all a good day.
@scarletsquig - I'm pretty sure it's emotional and not rational. There's something going on here that has Zweischneid seeing conspiracy and deceit wherever he looks when it comes to this project.
For the lurkers: Remember that kickstarter does not demand exclusivity. Nor does it demand that you not make any plans about producing miniatures through other means. Mantic has never said they'd only make the MVP if the Kickstarter stretch goals hit. They just said that if the stretch goal is hit, then they are funded as part of the kickstarter project and backers will get one. And in some cases, stretch goals will improve the product itself.*
Reaper was going to make more Bones miniatures even without the kickstarter. They just wanted to do a kickstarter to finance it to get it done faster and to have a better expansion of the line. That doesn't mean Reaper was lying about miniatures they were going to make anyway or some such nonsense.
I'm not a backer of this Kickstarter. I've already blown my miniatures budget on metal historical miniatures for the next month or two and even if I hadn't, I'm not sure I want a sports based miniature game right now. I've got enough projects on the go without adding another and so far, Dreadball is not wowing me. It looks impressive, but not enough to displace any of my existing projects.
* I happen to think stretch goals that fund a projects general improvement for all time and for all purchases are WAY better than ones that are exclusives to the backers.
Okay, so now I'm a liar, and I don't have a rulebook that lists 8 players as the starting teams that you get in the box in front of me right now, as I'm typing this?
Magic, got it.
Thanks for clearing that up.
I'd love to post some screens of the rulebook showing "8 players in the starting teams" to prove that I'm not under the direct mind control of the evil Manticorp via the aerials on their moonbase, but I'm starting to feel like that that would be about as productive as a hippo trying to make friends with a swarm of pirana, so I'll bid you all a good day.
Well, you keep assuming that actually going transparent will not change anyone's position. But have you tried?
If you could so easily dispel all doubts and prove all naysayers wrong, and clearly want to do so, why not do it?
I am more than willing to eat my words and apologize in great length if you have a scan that shows that the contents of the box (not the player teams, the contents) are, indeed, only 8 players per side and a metal ref*.
Hell, if I am proven wrong, I will pledge US$300 right away to show you this is serious to me and I am willing to retract my earlier statements.
[edit]
*That is, the pdf should be up within the next one or two hours. Shouldn't take more than minute to upload a page. I am not gonna trust a pdf going up... say... tomorrow to take me up on my bet.
I am of course, posting this knowing full well that "no concrete proof of metal ref" is going to be your get-out clause.
Also, I don't have access to the back of the official packaging for a contents list, because that hasn't been printed yet, because the contents are not set in stone currently, because this kickstarter is clearly changing the initial contents of it, which is why you were so comfortable with making that bet.
I am of course, posting this knowing full well that "no concrete proof of metal ref" is going to be your get-out clause.
That scan is the starting team (which will likely in the book as it is, even if they add another 50 figures).
The book must have a "box contents" page, or not?
And while I don't want to "wiggle" out of my clause, you are the only person I have ever heard mention or talk of a metal Ref. Or the "transition" from metal to plastic as a matter of fact. Your information must come from somewhere? At least post a link to where you first heard about the metal Ref that you bring up so vigorously time and again to make your point? I'm willing to settle for that.
For all I know, the Ref may still be made from metal, or from plastic, or from green cheese. The Mantic stretch goal doesn't talk about material, just that she will be included if the goal is met (without reference to materials at all).
^ Sure, beasts of war video, you can see Ronnie stating this well in advance of the KS being launched, and, just to absolutely convince you that he isn't just lying he is holding a metal Dreadball ref model in his hands while he says this.
At 5:25:
Ronnie Rention wrote:If we start at the beginning the ref is going to be a metal blister, if we get the funding, we can put him in the game
There isn't really a straight-up contents list, it just says what the types of components represent, and that there are card and counters and dice that are used for different things), but there are constant references to 8 player teams, to the point where someone earlier in this thread had to correct me to state that 14 is the max because I made an error there.
I'll be doing a full Match Report in the near future.
EDIT: and in one of the pics just for clarity you can see a metal refbot - just undercoated black I'm afraid but she's there (and was a real spanner in the works when I was trying to foul)
... well... we appear to have veered down a somewhat unexpected route but, thankfully, that minor diversion appears to be over, so we'll carry on as "normal".
scipio.au wrote: Why do people post misinformation when the actual details are so easy to find? SDE is the only one of the three games you quoted that goes for that amount. I'd suggest it's also at least in part due to it being because despite being based in the US, FFG have proper UK distribution channels, while CMON has to bundle up a containerload of stuff, as we've seen with their KS projects. Mantic would appear to hopefully have good UK distribution, as they're a UK-based company.
Steady on Scipio, I posted the RRPs (after looking carefully for stark US-UK differences) in good faith from (largeish UK geeky stuff chain) Travelling Man's printed catalogue. Even if you set them all £65 (the pre-discount price quoted for both Descent and Dust Tactics on their website), the difference is just shy of $25, the equivalent for a US purchaser paying more than $100 for any of the above. My point stands that the prices of board games and are - thanks partly to the costs of distribution, partly to higher VAT, and partly to American (and European) manufacturers being in the habit of simply substituting a £ for the $ (or €) sign when setting the RRP - simply set at a significantly higher point over here in the UK.
I''m not in the business of defending Mantic - beyond this and Pandora, I've little real interest in their games - and as I said agree that the contents of the basic DreadBall looked on the face of it pretty miserly (an American could buy Fantasy Flight's Conan for the same price, or Twilight Imperium for $10 more). I stand, however, by my argument that once inclusive postage (something US backers - unlike everybody else - aren't used to paying) and UK-US pricing differentials are taken into account, even the unimproved DreadBall's price doesn't look so unrealistic from Mantic's perspective, with the caveat that they would, in my opinion, have been wiser to set the price lower and charge postage on top, which would have avoided some of these (increasingly ill-natured) arguments over what looks to be a fun, light-hearted game.
Jake Thornton, designer for Dreadball, wrote a nice article about it and Blood Bowl.
A quick snippet:
"It was obvious from the outset that whatever DreadBall was or was not, it would be compared to GW’s Blood Bowl. Whether this was going to be favourable or not depended on the individual, but compared it would certainly be. This is exactly what is happening now, and so I would like to take a few moments to discuss the similarities and differences from my point of view as designer, and explain my decisions and talk a bit about where the concept for DB came from."
I'll be doing a full Match Report in the near future.
Those were both very interesting reading, thanks!
At first I did think that the 'Striker' set was just for the first 100 people, and thought that was a little unfair considering all of the extra stuff that is now being included in that pledge amount, but then I scrolled down a bit.
Jake Thornton seems to be a lot better at games design than he used to be in the old WD battle reports , think I will probably give this a dabble on the basis of that!
@Alex: You need the cards. Well, with the preview .pdf I have anyway. Not sure if the final .pdf delivered with this will include printable cards, but it would be cool if it did.
There's been plenty of requests for separate card packs, counter packs and pitches on the kickstarter, with hints that those might appear at some point, depending on how well the KS does.
As far as I can tell, the "original" plan for DreadBall was for the ref to be metal instead of plastic, and the 4 extra alternate sculpts definitely were not, under any circumstance "going to be included anyway".
You have absolutely no idea what their "original" plan or what was going to happen under any circumstances.
Unless you work for Mantic, as part of the leadership team, as opposed to being a guy in the warehouse, as opposed to being a Superfan, you aren't privvy to their internal discussions, plans or otherwise. They may tell you one thing, but just because they (or any business) tell you something, does not automagically mean it's true. Ultimately, you're just another guy on the internet, albeit one they like and find useful. You "know" what they want you to "know". Just don't think for a second that you know their plans for anything in any kind of detail.
Fact of the matter is that the contents of the box are totally subject to how much money Mantic has, which is entirely subject to how much cash it raises from this kickstarter. So, we're going to see the contents change. Plans from any given company change based on how much capital that company has access to. Shock Horror!
Again. No. They made $350k from the KoWKS. I'll let you in on a little secret now. But don't tell anyone, K?
Businesses move capital around. They certainly do have a bunch of commitments for that KoW Kickstarter, and will have some of the money aside in some forms, but it's unlikely that they will have $330k sitting in the bank right now in a special account with "do not touch or use for other things" written on the top. Now, I'm not for a moment suggesting that they won't live up to their KoWKS obligations - so don't get me wrong there. I am saying that since they're not idiots (mentioned that earlier, too!) they'll be making that money work for them as best they can, right now.
Now you're welcome to believe anything and everything you're shoveled about the game initially going to only include 12 figures for an $80 price point, and the ref was going to be a separate metal figure with this release, and all the rest, but that really only hurts your credibility in the same way that KH's endless bile and hatred hurt his credibility.
But maybe there's a half-truth buried in there. Maybe the original plan for this game was a regular direct-to-retail release, and in that case the game would have included 12 figures, no ref, and a cardboard pitch. It might have retailed for $40 or $50 as well. But the moment they decided to go KS, they knew they'd easily hit the $40k target at the very least, and so the ref in plastic became a given, along with more players and a bit more besides. At that point, they would have adjusted the RRP upwards to $80 - no doubt in anticipation of what they plan to include once they get another $200k in hand. Again, they're not fools, and they'd be aware that their game is solidly overpriced given the (currently listed) contents. We all know they'll hit at least $200k. That's a pretty safe bet for a Blood Bowl analogue in sci-fi built by ex-GW people. After all - These guys who no-one has ever heard of made $136k, and we know that Ronnie isn't insane like Felix is (and Felix still met his goal, and then some). - 3rd and 7th posts down for some quality. Haven't heard a peep from Felix since he took my money, either.
The hope is that it gets enough presales via KS to actually make it worth that $80. The risk right now is the momentum has pretty much stopped in it's tracks - the early pledgers are in, and there's simply not enough value to attract the next tier of people. - And we're miles away from the last-day rush.
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Sining wrote: So much drama over something that should be as simple as "Hmm, this looks cool. Think I'll back it" or "Nah, not my thing". -_-
It's an interesting and vigourous discussion, for the most part. If this board was only a mix of "awesome, dude" and "nah, not interested" it's be as boring as all hell, and not worth my (or many others') time.
I'd love to post some screens of the rulebook showing "8 players in the starting teams" to prove that I'm not under the direct mind control of the evil Manticorp via the aerials on their moonbase, but I'm starting to feel like that that would be about as productive as a hippo trying to make friends with a swarm of pirana, so I'll bid you all a good day.
Just to reiterate. The PDF book you have may have been the original plan for a non-KS project. The book itself may be subject to change. I understand that PDFs are published from original documents, and those original documents may in fact be modified at any time, and then the "publish as PDF" button can make a new PDF with major or minor changes. Or, in fact, whatever suits at the time.
Steady on Scipio, I posted the RRPs (after looking carefully for stark US-UK differences) in good faith from (largeish UK geeky stuff chain) Travelling Man's printed catalogue. Even if you set them all £65 (the pre-discount price quoted for both Descent and Dust Tactics on their website), the difference is just shy of $25, the equivalent for a US purchaser paying more than $100 for any of the above. My point stands that the prices of board games and are - thanks partly to the costs of distribution, partly to higher VAT, and partly to American (and European) manufacturers being in the habit of simply substituting a £ for the $ (or €) sign when setting the RRP - simply set at a significantly higher point over here in the UK.
I got my prices from Maelstrom's catalogue. Wayland has Descent for 59 (same as Maelstrom) and Dust for 65 (before discounts). Still a decent chunk off from 75, and it could be that Travelling Man's prices are a bit above the norm. We certainly have places like that over here. I don't take issue with your other points, but 15 quid isn't an insignificant amount when we're talking about numbers between 60 and 75 - it's 20-25% - so far from comparative to Dust/Descent's content count.
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Zweischneid wrote: Alright. I guess I do have to eat my words on the metal ref and apologize.
Now that's what I'm talking about - a willingness to admit mistakes. If only there was more of that on the internet.
Well, to be perfectly honest, I did want to get in for a while. Hence why I was lurking here (ok, lurking may not be the right word, but you know what I mean). I probably would've pledged at some point either way, so I didn't "bet away" my children's lunch money if that's what you're worried about.
The added drama may or may not be a bonus, even if it was drama about me being wrong instead of me heroically proving a point.
Certainly will make my first game of DreadBall that much more memorable!
scarletsquig wrote: There's been plenty of requests for separate card packs, counter packs and pitches on the kickstarter, with hints that those might appear at some point, depending on how well the KS does.
Even if they weren't separate, they could lump all the non-team stuff together and sell it with 'n' teams of the customer's choice.
Now you're welcome to believe anything and everything you're shoveled about the game initially going to only include 12 figures for an $80 price point, and the ref was going to be a separate metal figure, and all the rest, but that really only hurts your credibility in the same way that KH's endless bile and hatred hurt his credibility.
16 figures.
Credibility = "I may not know everything, but what I do know, I do tend to either back it up with hard facts or have fact-based reasons behind an educated guess about it".
Got any pictures of the evil Mantic moonbase?
Perhaps some grainy cellphone footage of Ronnie and Orcy in a hot tub full of kool-aid cackling about all the DreadBall copies sold to the dumb sheeple who believed the corporate propaganda?
How about a detailed analysis of the gencon video that explains why the metal referee mini in the video is a 'shop because you can tell by the pixels and from having seen quite a few 'shops in your time?
Provide any of those, and I will write a forum post explaining why GW owns the copyright to Babylonian mythology and the colour green.
^ There are some funny parts, particularly the 6 pages dedicated to all the different fouls you can attempt to make, and I'm particularly fond of how casualties are dealt with during leagues...
..you can either spend money to heal your injured players, or gain money by harvesting and selling their organs.
scarletsquig wrote: Can people bother to read the OP and the list of stretch goals?
Somehow I thought the Kickstarter page itself was a little more official than your post so I read it instead.
It would have been nice if you just answered the question instead of referring to the OP.
Snce the OP pretty much just parrots the Kickstarter page I assume there would be no magical insights there.
From the kickstarter page
ACHIEVED – New Alternatively Posed Players for your Teams!
If we pass through this goal, we’ll be able to add four new figures to DreadBall – The Futuristic Sports Game – two Corporation players and two Marauder Players. Not only this, but you’ll also allow us to give these new figures alternative poses for extra variety in the set!
6 Figures + 2 Additional sculpts = 8
The teams are now 10. I'm not complaining, I just wanted to know what I was missing, which I did not find on the kickstarter page.
^ Sorry about the terseness there, it was written more as a response to the reply to your post rather than your post itself.
There have always been 8 figures per team listed in the picture, and in the description, at all points in time. The alternate sculpt $60k stretch goal raises that to 10 per team.
There has never at any point in time been 6 per team for a total of 12 minis in the starter box, despite multiple people in this thread constantly and inaccurately stating that as fact (see scipios post a few posts up). It was 8 per team for a total of 16 right from day 1 of the kickstarter.
REALLY really want a 3D acrylic board. Even if it was $50 add-on. (I know how expensive acrylic can get, we offer laser-cut acrylic where I work... big sheets are expensive)
REALLY really want a 3D acrylic board. Even if it was $50 add-on. (I know how expensive acrylic can get, we offer laser-cut acrylic where I work... big sheets are expensive)
Add to that acrylic clear bases with the position name etched into them so figures can be mounted on a clear base which is larger than the current litle circle thing.
^ Sorry about the terseness there, it was written more as a response to the reply to your post rather than your post itself.
There have always been 8 figures per team listed in the picture, and in the description, at all points in time. The alternate sculpt $60k stretch goal raises that to 10 per team.
Thank you,.
My mistake then about the number of models. I remembered someone mentioning 12 before the Kickstarter started. I think it probably had to do with 12 on the pitch in the promo pictures.
Zweischneid wrote: Well, to be perfectly honest, I did want to get in for a while. Hence why I was lurking here (ok, lurking may not be the right word, but you know what I mean). I probably would've pledged at some point either way, so I didn't "bet away" my children's lunch money if that's what you're worried about.
The added drama may or may not be a bonus, even if it was drama about me being wrong instead of me heroically proving a point.
Certainly will make my first game of DreadBall that much more memorable!
Hey, I'm impressed as well. I see I got you wrong-- please accept my apologies.
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Ghiest1 wrote:I just do not see me liking this game, I enjoyed Blood Bowl due to it being funny, I think this may be taken to seriously.
I'm actually not sure Mantic ever does anything in a serious tone. For example:
scarletsquig wrote:..you can either spend money to heal your injured players, or gain money by harvesting and selling their organs.
I found out a friend of mine pledged on this project. So I'll wait to play it with him and see if I want to get a team of my own (or a copy of the game).
^ Sorry about the terseness there, it was written more as a response to the reply to your post rather than your post itself.
There have always been 8 figures per team listed in the picture, and in the description, at all points in time. The alternate sculpt $60k stretch goal raises that to 10 per team.
Thank you,.
My mistake then about the number of models. I remembered someone mentioning 12 before the Kickstarter started. I think it probably had to do with 12 on the pitch in the promo pictures.
and specifically, 6 players per team can *legally* be on the field. (the other two are subs and by the looks of them, not anywhere near enough )
I think that's where the confusion stems from.
I've added some RRP tracking to the OP since that was a popular request for the KoW kickstarter. Rounding down on the bonus minis, not including stuff I can't value (ticket, trophy) and not including the basic game upgrades, so it's quite a conservative estimate.
Striker is currently at $202, Jack is currently at $122.
That will rise to $224 and $132 once the $125k stretch is reached.
So, if anyone is interested in this game but thinking "I'll wait until I can get it for 25% discount", it's worth keeping in mind that we're already at the point where this offers 20-25% off and free shipping... with another 30 days left to run.
The KoW one ended up at 65-70% discount across all pledge levels, quite likely that this will follow suit, with Striker rising to around $400-500 in total value over time. Mantic tends towards "pile on the free stuff" when it comes to kickstarters.
I like how Mantic gets that when you do plastic (either styrene injection or the vinyl based restic) that the cost is upfront rather than per unit. So they're okay with giving loads of extras to those who help with the upfront costs.
What I'm really waiting for is the Warpath Kickstarter. I'm going to fund the **** out of that one.
Wildcard would look better with a different hairstyle - either shorter like Quorra's or tied back like a lot of female athletes. On the other hand, she's a far better take on a Striker than the 29ers, especially for the Warpath setting.
So, if anyone is interested in this game but thinking "I'll wait until I can get it for 25% discount", it's worth keeping in mind that we're already at the point where this offers 20-25% off and free shipping... with another 30 days left to run.
That was the tipping point.
Mantic Wins, I'm in at Striker.
Now to recruit all my friends, so we supporters can get more loot
I. Want. John. Doe. A freaking Cthulu speedball player?! Hell yes!! Mantic, take my money! I think this mini will draw more people like me in, and the next stretch goal will probably even be better (if that's possible).
I even have a paint-scheme already picked out for him.
adamsouza wrote: My hope is that all 4 of the plastic teams get bumped up to 12 players., for the striker level at least, by the end of the kickstarter.
That's a realistic goal, and I think it is something we'll actually see!
I think it would be really awesome if the tentacled MVP player represented a new race in the Warpath universe. It would be a very nice version of "Bugs" from other genres, without the cliche "giant earth bugs" form. Make them more like the Prawn from District 9.
Just hought I'd throw this up, this is what you will currently get at striker level and its only going to bigger over the next 30 days. (you might want add this to OP post Squig)
The striker level is starting to look like a pretty sweet deal.
I don't really care for the overall asthetic of the models.
I get what they are trying to do and why, but I think it would have been cooler to do a more original look/premise that wasnt a total copy of what they are copying.
"Robobowl" with all robot teams or something, anything but "orks and skaven, etc. playing football". Been there, done that...
CT GAMER wrote: I don't really care for the overall asthetic of the models.
I get what they are trying to do and why, but I think it would have been cooler to do a more original look/premise that wasnt a total copy of what they are copying.
"Robobowl" with all robot teams or something, anything but "orks and skaven, etc. playing football". Been there, done that...
Yeah, this is where I'm at, too, CT Gamer :-/
I wouldn't rule out getting a single team if someone around here gets the game, but so far none of the model aesthetics appeal to me...
CT GAMER wrote: I don't really care for the overall asthetic of the models.
I get what they are trying to do and why, but I think it would have been cooler to do a more original look/premise that wasnt a total copy of what they are copying.
"Robobowl" with all robot teams or something, anything but "orks and skaven, etc. playing football". Been there, done that...
...except it's not even close to "playing football" but a completely different game mechanic instead. try reading up on it in the links provided in the OP; it's a markedly different game.
scarletsquig wrote: ^ There are some funny parts, particularly the 6 pages dedicated to all the different fouls you can attempt to make, and I'm particularly fond of how casualties are dealt with during leagues...
..you can either spend money to heal your injured players, or gain money by harvesting and selling their organs.
I could get behind this concept, as I love twisted rules like this. *ahhh Scavies from Necromunda*
Sigh, I'm seriously looking forward to December now...and not because of Christmas. Mantic is sending me a great Christmas, that I'm paying for at the end of September.
timetowaste85 wrote: Sigh, I'm seriously looking forward to December now...and not because of Christmas. Mantic is sending me a great Christmas, that I'm paying for at the end of September.
People really should read the site. Lot of funny in-character stories about dreadball.
Oh and stuff like these:
and
Buzzcut and Number 88.
2 Unpublished MVP:s from the MVP section. Funnily enough, the Wildcard was missing from MVP list.
That should be all of them then. Coming soon to your nearest kickstarter!
I wonder how that would look lit from underneath? Nice bright white LED lights... Hmmmmmmmm... Lol.
~Eric
I know we have only just met Taarnak, but I think I love you!
That could well be one of the coolest ideas I have heard regarding this release.. although presumably the acrylic is not transparent?
Great that they have the options there though.
Lol. Why thank you, I think...
I was thinking that even if it were opaque, light would shine through at the separations. Although, a translucent board would be much better for this. Mantic, you out there?...
I want Buzzcut and 88 too...and possibly a second board-maybe the $25 one. I'm not sure about the $80 acrylic board...somebody would have to sway me...ScarletSquig...talk me into or out of the more expensive one.
I don't know if it's kickstarter fatiuge (bought reasoanbly big into KoW and bones), new game fatigue (6th ed, Warmachine, and KoW) or just the fact that I've got bloodbowl and three painted teams gathering dust, but I can't get fired up about this.
Maybe I'll change my mind if the extras go crazy big (or buy in with something local), but I'm standing pat.
It's too bad, because the models actually are among mantic's best, aside from the veermyn...
Polonius wrote: I don't know if it's kickstarter fatiuge (bought reasoanbly big into KoW and bones), new game fatigue (6th ed, Warmachine, and KoW) or just the fact that I've got bloodbowl and three painted teams gathering dust, but I can't get fired up about this.
Maybe I'll change my mind if the extras go crazy big (or buy in with something local), but I'm standing pat.
It's too bad, because the models actually are among mantic's best, aside from the veermyn...
I agree these are some of the (if not the absolute) best models Mantic has put out yet. Also a huge fan of the Enforcers in the Corporation army-can't wait for the Warpath kickstarter to wrangle up a large jumble of them and other corporation goodies.
Polonius wrote: I don't know if it's kickstarter fatiuge (bought reasoanbly big into KoW and bones), new game fatigue (6th ed, Warmachine, and KoW) or just the fact that I've got bloodbowl and three painted teams gathering dust, but I can't get fired up about this.
Maybe I'll change my mind if the extras go crazy big (or buy in with something local), but I'm standing pat.
It's too bad, because the models actually are among mantic's best, aside from the veermyn...
Well the #1 reason to get this is if other players local to you or in your gaming group are interested. If no one cares, then just pass it up. For me, there's 4+ people that are interested, so I'm in for the $150 level. Before it's over, they may get more fired up and someone else may pledge but I'm cool with getting the game and four teams to start with.
So far I have cautiously been able to resist this KS, but a lot hinges on what the female team looks like. I'm a sucker for a dame, and if the team takes what they have with Wildcard and runs with it, I may be sunk.
Polonius wrote: II agree these are some of the (if not the absolute) best models Mantic has put out yet. Also a huge fan of the Enforcers in the Corporation army-can't wait for the Warpath kickstarter to wrangle up a large jumble of them and other corporation goodies.
I loved the enforcers until I saw the price. I'm a fan of mantic, I just dont' like them enough to pay resin prices for them.
I'm in, but I really don't care for the corporation heads. I may replace them with Puppets War "pilot" or "G-team" heads. I've always liked those bits but could never figure out how I would use them.
I don't have anythign against the enforcer heads, but I too was looking for an excuse to use the PW Pilot heads. They would look awesome for the Future Sport Genre
Polonius wrote: II agree these are some of the (if not the absolute) best models Mantic has put out yet. Also a huge fan of the Enforcers in the Corporation army-can't wait for the Warpath kickstarter to wrangle up a large jumble of them and other corporation goodies.
I loved the enforcers until I saw the price. I'm a fan of mantic, I just dont' like them enough to pay resin prices for them.
Wait for the Warpath Kickstarter my dear, wise, Shakespearean father. Just quit hiding in the dark listening to deranged men and everything will work out.
I don't have anythign against the enforcer heads, but I too was looking for an excuse to use the PW Pilot heads. They would look awesome for the Future Sport Genre
Yeah, great idea there! I may well do the same. Because I'm original like that.
Acrylic board looks nice enough, and may be reasonably priced at $80, but too rich for me right now. That's a Titan from Dreamforge. I'll probably pick up the paint set to give it a try. One of the Mantic guys said their paint comed from the same supplier as Army Painter, though their own mixes.
You're supposed to lay the acrylic pitch on top of the card one. It elevates the field the thickness of the acylic.
It's about as 3D as the old Red/Blue glasses 3D.
I would have made the colored areas, and the center line of hexes, double the thickness of the rest of the board. In fact, that's probably what I'm going to do when I build my own board.
The Acrylic board is attractive, but I can't justify an additional $80 for it. If they post pictures of the MDF board I may opt for that.
an interesting note from the comments
Mantic Games wrote:Guys, you're doing a phenomenal job - Kicktraq is actually exceeding our daily target and we're on par with Sedition Wars and thoroughly beating Kings of War.
Polonius wrote: I don't know if it's kickstarter fatiuge (bought reasoanbly big into KoW and bones), new game fatigue (6th ed, Warmachine, and KoW) or just the fact that I've got bloodbowl and three painted teams gathering dust, but I can't get fired up about this.
Maybe I'll change my mind if the extras go crazy big (or buy in with something local), but I'm standing pat.
It's too bad, because the models actually are among mantic's best, aside from the veermyn...
You may find it worth going in for Jack or Striker, as they both ship in December as opposed to March, like most of SW, KoW and Bones will be. It also depends of course if you have others to play with, or others you can rope into playing with...
Mantic Games wrote:Guys, you're doing a phenomenal job - Kicktraq is actually exceeding our daily target and we're on par with Sedition Wars and thoroughly beating Kings of War.
Unless they start laying on both the freebies and worthwhile inexpensive add-ons thickly, they won't touch SW in the end. Will they add another 4 teams as freebies? Who knows? On one hand, it seems unlikely, but I also imagine that would really spike the pledges at $150. Might be too much for them, though.
They do however have a few things in their favour - The "sweet spot" buy-in point for this game is $50 more than Sedition Wars, so that's do doubt counting for a lot to start with. Not to mention the free shipping to both the US and UK with no added Customs and VAT for UK/European pledgers, and other international shippingalso being quite reasonable - a few mental hurdles people don't need to stress about.
1.) All plastic Teams get bumped up to 12 figures
2.) Forge Fathers and Rat Team get 2 additional sculpts each
3.) Additional balls
4.) More MVPS
5.) Custom Dice
Unless they start laying on both the freebies and worthwhile inexpensive add-ons thickly, they won't touch SW in the end. Will they add another 4 teams as freebies? Who knows? On one hand, it seems unlikely, but I also imagine that would really spike the pledges at $150. Might be too much for them, though.
Take another look at the KoW Kickstarter. About 70 models given away at the $175 level, with large infantry, cavalry and a chariot.
I'm fairly confident that over 100 miniatures total will end up in Striker by the end of this, even if the KS doesn't beat Sedition Wars (CMoN has better marketing, and the game is niche, so its unlikely.. might beat Relic Knights, though).
Remember, Sedition Wars had its special characters as "$10 options" for the most part.. Mantic is flat-out giving them away as freebies, there hasn't been a single "non-freebie" stretch goal so far, which is brilliant. The pitch is not a stretch goal, just in case that wasn't clear. Pictures of the MDF board are coming as soon as Mantic gets the board delivered in the mail (should be next Monday).
They are taking a very different approach to this than Sedition Wars, which frontloaded its juicy stretches of +12 minis.. here they seem to have relied on early birds to get early momentum going (and get the kickstarter.com promotion that is triggered by that), it's possible that the new teams will appear in the middle, to give a boost to a part which normally runs slowly. They're running on a nice flat $10k per day average at the moment which is great and hints at least $500k for the final sum.
They've already had 2 stretch goals that gave away 4 extra minis for $10k-$20k, a series of big $40-50k stretches that gives Striker a whole new team of 8 minis is definitely doable and is likely to be the point where this really takes off.
Also, someone earlier in the thread asked if the MVPs will be metal or plastic - This was answered in the KS comments - Mantic doesn't know itself yet, the material depends on how successful the kickstarter is. Low success = it's cheaper for them to make the minis in metal, high success = it's cheaper for them to make the MVPs in plastic. So, anyone who really, really wants plastic for their freebies, or no backy, wait until the last few days and then ask them.
The MVPs look to be one-piece minis and Mantic's restic material holds detail just as well as metal so there really isn't a lot of difference either way.
Good God, I've been looking at the Dreadball kickstarter throughout the day...it's gained almost $10,000 today alone. Compared to what it has already received, it's not much...but it's also been going on for a week, and $10,000 doesn't seem like much of a die-down.
Today was the 2nd highest day for the thing so far, and yet it also seems to be the day with the most KS commenters bemoaning a "slowdown".
That reminds me, I should add a link to that in the first post.
No kidding. I fully expect the John Doe stretch goal to be reached before I wake up in the morning (and I don't usually sleep past 8). to the loyal organ-harvesting backers of this game. Get me John Doe.
Looking through their other options, I went with a $25 board and the paint kit as well. Up to $195 for me.
I'm fairly confident that over 100 miniatures total will end up in Striker by the end of this, even if the KS doesn't beat Sedition Wars (CMoN has better marketing, and the game is niche, so its unlikely.. might beat Relic Knights, though).
Relic Knights is doing (slightly) better than Sedition Wars at this point in time. On the 25th day of the campaign, Sedition Wars was at about 360.000,- . Relic Knights yesterday (the 25th day) was at 370.000 more or less.
Hard to compare patterns, since Relic Knights started a-lot more "front-loaded" with lots of pledges in the first two days, while Sedition Wars was more of a slow burner. Yet, if Relic Knights gets a similar end-rally, it does have good chances of beating Sedition Wars and topping 1 Million.
Unless they start laying on both the freebies and worthwhile inexpensive add-ons thickly, they won't touch SW in the end. Will they add another 4 teams as freebies? Who knows? On one hand, it seems unlikely, but I also imagine that would really spike the pledges at $150. Might be too much for them, though.
Take another look at the KoW Kickstarter. About 70 models given away at the $175 level, with large infantry, cavalry and a chariot.
I don't need to look. Both my wife and I pledged at $175+ each.
Not the point I'm making there, though. I'm wondering out loud if they'll add the additional teams as $$ add-ons or into Striker.
I'm fairly confident that over 100 miniatures total will end up in Striker by the end of this, even if the KS doesn't beat Sedition Wars (CMoN has better marketing, and the game is niche, so its unlikely.. might beat Relic Knights, though).
Remember, Sedition Wars had its special characters as "$10 options" for the most part.. Mantic is flat-out giving them away as freebies, there hasn't been a single "non-freebie" stretch goal so far, which is brilliant.
They are taking a very different approach to this than Sedition Wars, which frontloaded its juicy stretches of +12 minis.. here they seem to have relied on early birds to get early momentum going (and get the kickstarter.com promotion that is triggered by that), it's possible that the new teams will appear in the middle, to give a boost to a part which normally runs slowly. They're running on a nice flat $10k per day average at the moment which is great and hints at least $500k for the final sum.
SW had a lot of +$10 characters that also had extras, and that's exactly what I'm wondering about. Potentially hitting the pledgers (ie the people who are interested in the product) again seems to be a tried-and-true strategy, though KoW did that largely via BOGOF. SW did give away quite a lot of extras for free though. DB's package isn't nearly in that range yet, though they still have a month to play with.
(CMoN has better marketing, and the game is niche, so its unlikely.. might beat Relic Knights, though).
No more niche than a Space Hulk game which, let's face it, Sedition Wars was. I can see DreadBall being a supported system, Sedition Wars is a one-off board game that'll get expanded into a skirmish game at same point.
Interested in why CMoN has better marketing though, thought it more to do with the fact that they've probably got a larger American community.
@Black Nexus: CMoN spend big on advertising, as well as owning various sites such as TGN which permanently has banner ads for their various campaigns.
Community of their site is huge, too, not just Americans, it's been around for over a decade and is extremely well-established, even amongst non-wargamers, so they're tapping into a much greater cross-section of the market there. A CCG-gamer friend of mine first showed me the site 10 years ago.
They've just plain got more eyeballs looking at them than Mantic does, which is what you need for a KS campaign... there are already extremely massively successful campaigns run by people who write webcomics, often for things which are not even remotely related to webcomics, simply because their site gets millions of unique views per day.
The success of KS campaigns is mostly down to "get as many eyeballs as possible" and "don't screw anything up", which is why Soda Pop/McVey and others are best off throwing their lot in with CMoN, since that way they benefit from the marketing aspect of the bigger fish while still being a little fish themselves.
Same relationship between a game developer/ writer and their publisher really. That's what I mean by better marketing.
It's not something that Mantic can acquire overnight, and the company is still lacking the "hit" that will make them popular with the wargaming crowd in general... there's always something that people don't like with every single one of their releases. Not Mantic fans of course, but the numerous majority of other people who just aren't convinced.
In the case of DreadBall, the most common complaint I've heard so far seems to be that people do not want orcs in space, skaven in space and dwarfs in space, but want actual sci-fi stuff in the sci-fi game. The good reaction to the tentacle alien is an excellent example of this, it is the first alien we've seen in the Warpath universe that hasn't jumped straight out of a warhammer fantasy army book and strapped some armour on. Not that I don't love my forgefather army, but I accept that the "Space Fantasy" genre is less popular than the "Sci-fi" genre currently. It is a sub-genre, and its not for everyone. KoW went pretty much "by the books" when it came to fantasy, but Warpath is wildly divergent from the core of humans vs. aliens that most people expect.
Some of the 3 new teams (other than the female corp, which are already an excellent idea) being actual alien aliens would be one thing that could make this huge and appeal to both markets.
Whole team of John Doe tentacle people, Android team (another excellent sci-fi staple). Team of silicon-based crystalline aliens cast in clear plastic = awesome
Whereas in comparison, something like space lizardmen, space elves, and space dark elves would probably just leave people wondering why a fantasy game wasn't made instead.
(or $140 if early... but that's still pretty darn high)
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